tblYgr_AAHistoryLovers
YahooMessageID From FromEmail Subject SubjectSrt RecDate Message AttCount NewMsgFlag DelMsgFlag FavMsgFlag
2118 ogzigensenza1
Chuck and Lee? Chuck and Lee? 1/4/2005 5:37:00 AM


I'm curious. Are the Chuck and Lee in "A.A. Comes of Age"/Los

Angeles A.A., Chuck and Elsa C.?


0 -1 0 0
2119 hjfree2001
Jim''s Stroy Jim''s Stroy 1/14/2005 12:39:00 PM


In the Big Book Pioneer's Section, Jim's Story,



Ella G. introduces Jim to Charlie G., who brought Jim to AA and

became his sponsor. There is a lot about couple recovery in the

story (Vi & Jim where often the only attendees at the early

meetings, Vi's patience with Jim etc.)



Are Ella & Charlie also partners ergo the common "G" ? ? ? ?



blessed2bsober

rob


0 -1 0 0
2120 Bill Corcoran
Thank you and question on Big Book royalties Thank you and question on Big Book royalties 1/16/2005 12:24:00 PM


Hello,



First of all, it is a pleasure to be a recent addition to the

membership of this group. I spent nearly a day reading through the

message archives and found it fascinating.

I do have a question that I hope someone can answer. I was at an

AA meeting recently and before the meeting, a rather pompous

individual was loudly voicing his opinions about AA history. He

mentioned that Bill W. had "stiffed" Dr. Bob for his share of the

royalties. Some of the old posts I read on this board seemed to

indicate otherwise, but I wanted to know if this person was off base

as I suspect he was. Any takers?



Thanks,



Bill O'C.

Middletown, RI


0 -1 0 0
2121 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Thank you and question on Big Book royalties Thank you and question on Big Book royalties 1/16/2005 10:13:00 PM


Hi Bill



The basis for the specific matter you inquire about derives from an August 1941

letter from Bill W to Dr Bob. Bill asked Dr Bob if he could take $500 from

accumulated Big Book royalties.



There is a web site community that propagates revisionist screeds about Bill W

(among others). Something as plain as I described previously, has been

convoluted by them into portraying Bill as out to pull one over on Dr Bob.



How someone writing a letter, asking permission to take funds, could be

portrayed as trying to "stiff" his closest associate is beyond my imagination

(but apparently not beyond the conspiratorial imagination of others). I suspect

the web site provided the origin of the negative opinion formed by the person

you mention.



Unfortunately, the topic is not related to history, it really involves

mean-spirited slander. Sadly, there seems to be an ever-growing increase in the

number of people who try to make themselves look good solely through the

mechanism of trying to make someone else look bad.



Arthur



PS - if you want more info let me know through direct email to the "from"

address above.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bill Corcoran<mailto:WCOC121558@aol.com>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com >

Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 11:24 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Thank you and question on Big Book royalties







Hello,



First of all, it is a pleasure to be a recent addition to the

membership of this group. I spent nearly a day reading through the

message archives and found it fascinating.

I do have a question that I hope someone can answer. I was at an

AA meeting recently and before the meeting, a rather pompous

individual was loudly voicing his opinions about AA history. He

mentioned that Bill W. had "stiffed" Dr. Bob for his share of the

royalties. Some of the old posts I read on this board seemed to

indicate otherwise, but I wanted to know if this person was off base

as I suspect he was. Any takers?



Thanks,



Bill O'C.

Middletown, RI











Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT











------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAH\

istoryLovers/
>



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:



AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

ahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2122 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Jim''s Stroy Jim''s Stroy 1/16/2005 10:33:00 PM


Hi Rob



Dr Jim mentions initially having meetings at Ella G's home as "... the first

meeting of a colored group in AA ..." Dr Jim does not identify the location as

"Ella and Charlie's" home but only as "Ella G's."



In the story (pg 244 in the 4th edition Big Book) it infers that Ella G was

black and explicitly states that Charlie G was white. My interpretation is that

Ella and Charlie were very close friends through the fellowship and common bond

of AA.



The racial intolerance that existed at the time (which is very well documented

in "Pass It On") I believe would have precluded them from being husband and wife

and their difference in race would preclude them from being siblings.



In early AA, it was supposed to be fairly common for alcoholics and spouses to

attend meetings together. Afterwards, the alcoholics would gather privately into

a "closed" meeting of alcoholics only. When AA was under the umbrella of the

Oxford Group, other non-alcoholic Oxford Group members could (and did) attend

the "open" portion of the meetings as well.



Cheers

Arthur

----- Original Message -----

From: hjfree2001<mailto:hjfree@fuse.net>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:39 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's Stroy







In the Big Book Pioneer's Section, Jim's Story,



Ella G. introduces Jim to Charlie G., who brought Jim to AA and

became his sponsor. There is a lot about couple recovery in the

story (Vi & Jim where often the only attendees at the early

meetings, Vi's patience with Jim etc.)



Are Ella & Charlie also partners ergo the common "G" ? ? ? ?



blessed2bsober

rob















------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAH\

istoryLovers/
>



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:



AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@y\

ahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2123 Rwj
Big Book Royalties Big Book Royalties 1/17/2005 1:41:00 PM


Thanks for this information. I heard (also years ago

-- and I think it was from Barry who spoke at the

first Big D Roundup) that an early NYC member helped

write portions of the original Big Book -- but quit

the fellowship over an argument with Bill about who

owned the copyright and would get the royalties.



Can you shed light on this?



Rocky







__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!

http://my.yahoo.com


0 -1 0 0
2124 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Big Book Royalties Big Book Royalties 1/17/2005 4:19:00 PM


Hi Rocky



It was Hank Parkhurst. He was very instrumental in getting the Big Book

published and is also credited with writing chapter 10 "To Employers." Hank got

drunk after 4 years sobriety and harbored many resentments against Bill. He

married a sister of Clarence Snyder who founded AA in Cleveland. Clarence was a

thorn in Bill's side for decades.



in 1940 or 1941 Clarence S accused Bill of ripping off money from sales of the

Big Book. He tried to set up Bill by calling a special meeting in Cleveland and

asking Bill and Dr Bob to attend. The meeting was going to be used to accuse

Bill of many negative rumors that were circulating. Bill got wind of the true

purpose of the meeting and had a CPA audit the books and provide a finance

statement. Bill showed the audit report at the Cleveland meeting and all but

Clarence apologized to him.



If you are looking for this kind of detailed info you can find a bunch of it in

a timeline document I periodically distribute. You can download a copy from

oso-aa.org/library/pafiledb.php or silkworth.net/aahistory/general.html



The copies are a "public" version (member last names are reduced to last

initial). Silkworth.net has the material in html, PDF or Word format. I'll be

issuing an updated/corrected and expanded version in a few months or so. I'll

post a message on AAHistoryLovers when it is ready for distribution. Anyone who

replies to the message gets a copy.



Cheers

Arthur

----- Original Message -----

From: Rwj<mailto:rwj426@yahoo.com>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:41 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Royalties





Thanks for this information. I heard (also years ago

-- and I think it was from Barry who spoke at the

first Big D Roundup) that an early NYC member helped

write portions of the original Big Book -- but quit

the fellowship over an argument with Bill about who

owned the copyright and would get the royalties.



Can you shed light on this?



Rocky







__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!

http://my.yahoo.com<http://my.yahoo.com/>









------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAH\

istoryLovers/
>



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:



AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@y\

ahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2125 Jim
Big Book Editions Big Book Editions 1/20/2005 12:45:00 PM


What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164

pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?



Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second

Edition?



Who originally made this decision?



I am looking for documented historical sources.

Thank you in advance.



Jim

California


0 -1 0 0
2126 Peter Tippett
A man of thirty was doing a great deal of spree drinking. A man of thirty was doing a great deal of spree drinking. 1/20/2005 4:12:00 PM


Do we have any idea who he was?

Curiously,

Pete





=====

"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time."







__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.

http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


0 -1 0 0
2127 Richard Johnson
Introduction Introduction 1/21/2005 12:00:00 PM


When,how where did we start saying "hello my name is somebody,I;m a

alocoholic...???


0 -1 0 0
2128 ArtSheehan
RE: Big Book Editions Big Book Editions 1/21/2005 12:30:00 AM


Hi Jim



The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much "protected" from radical

change by the prevailing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole. It has

also been reinforced (particularly in regard to the 4th edition) by

Conference advisory actions. However, changes to the Big Book can be

accomplished by Conference advisory action. I doubt that they would get too

far in reality if they were anything beyond very minor.



The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164.

"The Doctors Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story" became page 1 in

the 2nd edition. Nobody really knows why Bill W renumbered the Forewords and

"The Doctors Opinion" to Roman numerals but there is much creative

speculation.



Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps the late 1940's) Bill W

sensed that the Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic text. In his

presentation to the 1955 General Service Conference, he was careful to

inform them that the main objective of the 2nd edition was to change the

personal stories to better reflect the makeup of the membership. His report

stated: "Not an iota" of the first part of the text dealing with recovery

principles had been changed. The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd

edition states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1 to page 165 [sic],

remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should stand

as first written."



The Foreword to the 3rd edition reinforces this with the statement "Because

this book has become the basic text for our Society and has helped such

large numbers of alcoholic men and women to recovery, there exists a

sentiment against any radical changes being made to it. Therefore, the first

portion of this volume, describing the AA recovery program, has been left

untouched in the course of revisions made for both the second and third

editions."



There have been many wording changes over the years to the basic text

(including two changes to Step 12):



1. The wording of Step 12 changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st

edition. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual

awakening" and "as a result of these steps" was changed to "as a result of

those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Father Ed

Dowling expressed his dissatisfaction with the change in his address to the

1955 International Conference (see "AA Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of

Step 12 was changed back to "these steps" in the 2nd printing of the 2nd

edition.



2. In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term "ex-alcoholic"

was replaced by the terms "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."



3. In places that express values, terms have been updated to express

growth (e.g. "scores" was changed to "hundreds" then changed to "thousands"

etc). Also, foot notes were added.



Several web sites have tables that detail the changes from edition to

edition.



Several Conference advisory actions related to the 4th edition specified

that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text, appendices and

"Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain as is." This pretty much

represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA membership that emerged with 2nd

edition (1955).



In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare."

It appeared that the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-responsive to

the Conference's advisory actions that the story "remain as is." It was

likely an honest mistake since there were so many Conference advisory

actions on the matter. In two advisory actions, the Conference authorized

making punctuation changes if they were done to correct errors. On the other

hand "remain as is" means "remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the

changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a floor action to restore the

original punctuation.



Cheers



Arthur



_____



From: Jim [mailto:khanti1008@yahoo.com]

Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:45 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions





What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164

pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?











Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second

Edition?



Who originally made this decision?



I am looking for documented historical sources.

Thank you in advance.



Jim

California







_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2129 Jay Lawyer
Re: Big Book Editions (ex-problem....) Big Book Editions (ex-problem....) 1/21/2005 4:02:00 PM


Hi Art,

Thanks for your response to Jim. Now I have a question for you. I have inquired

why the change to "ex-problem" drinker in the 11th printing of 1st Edition from

"Ex-Alcoholic", but no replies. Do you have any kind of explaination for this

change? Also if so could you provide any kind of reason for this action?

Thanks



Jay





----- Original Message -----

From: ArtSheehan

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:30 AM

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions





Hi Jim



The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much "protected" from radical

change by the prevailing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole. It has

also been reinforced (particularly in regard to the 4th edition) by

Conference advisory actions. However, changes to the Big Book can be

accomplished by Conference advisory action. I doubt that they would get too

far in reality if they were anything beyond very minor.



The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164.

"The Doctors Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story" became page 1 in

the 2nd edition. Nobody really knows why Bill W renumbered the Forewords and

"The Doctors Opinion" to Roman numerals but there is much creative

speculation.



Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps the late 1940's) Bill W

sensed that the Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic text. In his

presentation to the 1955 General Service Conference, he was careful to

inform them that the main objective of the 2nd edition was to change the

personal stories to better reflect the makeup of the membership. His report

stated: "Not an iota" of the first part of the text dealing with recovery

principles had been changed. The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd

edition states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1 to page 165 [sic],

remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should stand

as first written."



The Foreword to the 3rd edition reinforces this with the statement "Because

this book has become the basic text for our Society and has helped such

large numbers of alcoholic men and women to recovery, there exists a

sentiment against any radical changes being made to it. Therefore, the first

portion of this volume, describing the AA recovery program, has been left

untouched in the course of revisions made for both the second and third

editions."



There have been many wording changes over the years to the basic text

(including two changes to Step 12):



1. The wording of Step 12 changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st

edition. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual

awakening" and "as a result of these steps" was changed to "as a result of

those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Father Ed

Dowling expressed his dissatisfaction with the change in his address to the

1955 International Conference (see "AA Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of

Step 12 was changed back to "these steps" in the 2nd printing of the 2nd

edition.



2. In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term "ex-alcoholic"

was replaced by the terms "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."



3. In places that express values, terms have been updated to express

growth (e.g. "scores" was changed to "hundreds" then changed to "thousands"

etc). Also, foot notes were added.



Several web sites have tables that detail the changes from edition to

edition.



Several Conference advisory actions related to the 4th edition specified

that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text, appendices and

"Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain as is." This pretty much

represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA membership that emerged with 2nd

edition (1955).



In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare."

It appeared that the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-responsive to

the Conference's advisory actions that the story "remain as is." It was

likely an honest mistake since there were so many Conference advisory

actions on the matter. In two advisory actions, the Conference authorized

making punctuation changes if they were done to correct errors. On the other

hand "remain as is" means "remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the

changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a floor action to restore the

original punctuation.



Cheers



Arthur





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2130 Roy Tellis
Re: How did the "I''M AN ALCOHOLIC, MY NAME IS ________" Custom Start? How did the "I''M AN ALCOHOLIC, MY NAME IS ________" Custom Start? 1/22/2005 11:35:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Johnson"

<hotshots@e...> wrote:

>

> When,how where did we start saying "hello my name is somebody,I;m

a

> alocoholic...???

-------------------------------------------

from Box 459, date/issue unknown, copied from "The Messenger", June

2001 :



"I'M AN ALCOHOLIC, MY NAME IS ________"



How Did The "I'm An Alcoholic" Custom Start?



Who was the first to start a meeting or a qualification with the

statement, "I'm an alcoholic"? How did the worldwide custom begin?



As late co-founder Bill W. used to observe: "Nobody invented AA.

It just grew." And so probably did its classic introduction at

meetings.



"Many members ask these questions." says G.S.O. archivist, Frank

M. "Unfortunately, only a few earlytimers are left, and not many of

them are able to produce plausible theories. So we can only

speculate."



According to an early friend of AA, the late Henrietta Seiberling,

the expression dates back to meetings of AA's forerunner, The Oxford

Group Movement, which had it's heyday in the early 1930's. Mrs.

Seiberling, a non-alcoholic who had sought spiritual help in the

Oxford Group meetings, introduced Bill to AA's other founder, Dr.

Bob, then struggling to get sober in the Oxford Group.



At small meetings, the members knew one another and didn't need to

identify themselves. But in the large "public" meetings, there

was "witnessing," along the lines of an AA talk today, so personal

identification became necessary. Chances are that someone at

sometime said, "I'm an alcoholic" but, Mrs. Seiberling wasn't sure.

Nor did she remember that the phrase was used at early AA meetings

in Akron, before publication of the Big Book. In fact, she said the

word "alcoholic" was rarely uttered, at least in Akron. People

referred to themselves as "drunks" or "rum hounds" or "boozers" or

other epithets reminiscent of the Temperance Movement that gained

adherents during prohibition.



An early New York AA first heard expression as "I'm an alcoholic and

my name is...". According to his recollection, that was after World

War II, in 1945 or 1946. And it is a matter of record that, in

1947, a documentary film, "I'm an alcoholic" was produced by RKO.

From there on, as Bill might say, the custom "just grew."



from Box 459, date/issue unknown, copied from "The Messenger", June

2001



Roy T.

Baldwin, NY


0 -1 0 0
2131 Roy Tellis
Re: Author of "Life Saving Words" - BB 3rd Ed. Author of "Life Saving Words" - BB 3rd Ed. 1/22/2005 12:05:00 PM


Dear Nancy,

My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in Bombay India

in April 1990. I was going through the brief biograpies of the

authors ot the stories and I notices that you did not have the name

or accurate sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words" from

the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends involved in service in

India and am forwarding you some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA

Manual (Historical section):



HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots started a

meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but it did not survive the

war. Till 1957 a few individuals attempted sobriety through direct

correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early 1957, a

Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to the Candian Embassy at

New Delhi. Prior to his coming to India, Charley wrote to our co-

founder, Bill W. informing that he was being sent to New Delhi

and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A. activities, and if

there are any contacts there, that I can get in touch with, I would

surely welcome the opportunity". The reply from General Service

Office, N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti M.

to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence indicates that Charley

M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th January 1957 and was able to locate

Sylvia and Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place

advertisements in local newspapers offering help to those with a

drinking problem. It was through one of these "ads" that Lieutenant

Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment of the Indian Army had the

opportunity to come in contact with Charley M. From his response,

Trevor K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his death on

31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K. appears in the BIG BOOK

entitled - "Life-saving words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had

the good fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M., who

suggested that he register as a "loner" due to his army postings.

Trevor's service postings took him to new places in India and he

became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in India sowing the

seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore, Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,

Calcutta and other cities.



in fellowship

Roy T.

Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India


0 -1 0 0
2132 Ernest Kurtz
Conference of possible interest to some Conference of possible interest to some 1/22/2005 3:39:00 PM


Hi,



Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the

presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,

others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,

though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to some of

us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA supporters

will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who can

verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my biography,

but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in

agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my

claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging ditches

today.



For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier

researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan. 9th. She

worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest. We

will miss her.



ernie kurtz



MARCH 10-12, 2005

SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL

PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY



www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm



Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and alcohol

problems. However, until recently little scientific research has

explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be related or

ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,

prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the latest

research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality and

addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological and

clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three full

day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address

responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and

treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and

cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.



Keynote Speakers:

· Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research Center,

University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of

Addictive Behaviors"

· Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology at the

Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of Addiction and

Recovery"



Other Presenters:

· Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California - Berkeley: "The Good,

the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"

· Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Explaining the

Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"

· Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's God Got to

Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among African

American Youth"

· Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-Month

Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"

· Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating

Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"

· Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The Spiritual

Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in

Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis in

Addiction Research"



Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):

· Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan Marlatt &

Jean Kristeller)

· Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley & Kathy Goggin)



Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):

· Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and Addiction (Tom

Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)

(Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop may do

so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the workshop)



The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health Education

1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the

three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and includes

continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a

reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend only

one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee, continental

breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available for

psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors (see

the conference web-site for details). For more information about the

conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-2449.



To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)

800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.


0 -1 0 0
2134 cometkazie1@cox.net>
Re: Re: Conference of possible interest to some Conference of possible interest to some 1/23/2005 10:34:00 AM


>

> From: "Tom P." <tomper99@yahoo.com>

> Date: 2005/01/22 Sat PM 11:01:54 EST

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some

>

>

>

> Thanks for the info Ernie.

> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about

> alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and

> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up

> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know

> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does

> not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the

> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.

> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele

> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.

> Tom P.

>



Are there any references that go into the specific differences between the

metabolism in non-alcoholics and alcoholics? As a chemist I have been intrigued

but haven't been able to uncover anything specific for over a decade.



Tommy in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
2135 ArtSheehan
RE: Re: Conference of possible interest to some Conference of possible interest to some 1/23/2005 4:42:00 PM


Hi



I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an

academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical

perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.



For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there will

be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually

dishonest).



I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a

non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work

with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can

be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly

when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own

contrarian theories.



Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the

debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He asserts

that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide

somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's

founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months

later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken

months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.



I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one

disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets

are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our

Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns

Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee

and telling Bill to go start a meeting.



We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard

to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"

something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist

doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating illness

and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental

illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the

clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of

spiritual living.



Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta Sieberling,

T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,

Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs and

Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having

experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that

alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the

afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.



Cheers



Arthur



_____



From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@yahoo.com]

Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some









Thanks for the info Ernie.

I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about

alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and

the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up

when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know

people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does

not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the

alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.

Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele

obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.

Tom P.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@u...>

wrote:

> Hi,

>

> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the

> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,

> others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,

> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to

some of

> us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA

supporters

> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who

can

> verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my

biography,

> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in

> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my

> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging

ditches

> today.

>

> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier

> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.

9th. She

> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.

We

> will miss her.

>

> ernie kurtz

>

> MARCH 10-12, 2005

> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL

> PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY

>

> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm

>

> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and

alcohol

> problems. However, until recently little scientific research has

> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be

related or

> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,

> prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the

latest

> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality

and

> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological

and

> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three

full

> day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address

> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and

> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and

> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.

>

> Keynote Speakers:

> . Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research

Center,

> University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment

of

> Addictive Behaviors"

> . Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology

at the

> Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of

Addiction and

> Recovery"

>

> Other Presenters:

> . Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -

Berkeley: "The Good,

> the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"

> . Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State

University: "Explaining the

> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"

> . Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's

God Got to

> Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among

African

> American Youth"

> . Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-

Month

> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"

> . Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating

> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"

> . Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The

Spiritual

> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in

> Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis

in

> Addiction Research"

>

> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):

> . Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan

Marlatt &

> Jean Kristeller)

> . Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &

Kathy Goggin)

>

> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):

> . Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and

Addiction (Tom

> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)

> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop

may do

> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the

workshop)

>

> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health

Education

> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the

> three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and

includes

> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a

> reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend

only

> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,

continental

> breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available

for

> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors

(see

> the conference web-site for details). For more information about

the

> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-

2449.

>

> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)

> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.













_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2136 Mel Barger
Re: Re: Conference of possible interest to some Conference of possible interest to some 1/23/2005 5:07:00 PM


Hi,

I appreciate Arthur's observations here. I have occasionally pulled up

Stanton Peele's website in the hope of finding him saying something good

about AA, but he rarely does.

I do think being an alcoholic gives us a good understanding of the nature

of compulsion. I am not a compulsive gambler, for example, but in knowing

how the first drink affected me, I can well understand how some gamblers can

be swept into insane, irrational behavior after experiencing or expecting a

win.

Mel Barger

~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 4:42 PM

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some





>

> Hi

>

> I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an

> academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical

> perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.

>

> For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there

> will

> be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually

> dishonest).

>

> I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a

> non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work

> with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can

> be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly

> when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own

> contrarian theories.

>

> Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the

> debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He

> asserts

> that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide

> somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's

> founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months

> later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken

> months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.

>

> I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one

> disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets

> are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our

> Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns

> Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee

> and telling Bill to go start a meeting.

>

> We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard

> to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"

> something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist

> doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating

> illness

> and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental

> illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the

> clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of

> spiritual living.

>

> Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta

> Sieberling,

> T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,

> Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs

> and

> Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having

> experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that

> alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the

> afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.

>

> Cheers

>

> Arthur

>

> _____

>

> From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@yahoo.com]

> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some

>

>

>

>

> Thanks for the info Ernie.

> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about

> alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and

> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up

> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know

> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does

> not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the

> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.

> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele

> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.

> Tom P.

>

>

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@u...>

> wrote:

>> Hi,

>>

>> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the

>> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,

>> others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,

>> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to

> some of

>> us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA

> supporters

>> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who

> can

>> verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my

> biography,

>> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in

>> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my

>> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging

> ditches

>> today.

>>

>> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier

>> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.

> 9th. She

>> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.

> We

>> will miss her.

>>

>> ernie kurtz

>>

>> MARCH 10-12, 2005

>> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL

>> PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY

>>

>> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm

>>

>> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and

> alcohol

>> problems. However, until recently little scientific research has

>> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be

> related or

>> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,

>> prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the

> latest

>> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality

> and

>> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological

> and

>> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three

> full

>> day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address

>> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and

>> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and

>> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.

>>

>> Keynote Speakers:

>> . Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research

> Center,

>> University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment

> of

>> Addictive Behaviors"

>> . Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology

> at the

>> Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of

> Addiction and

>> Recovery"

>>

>> Other Presenters:

>> . Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -

> Berkeley: "The Good,

>> the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"

>> . Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State

> University: "Explaining the

>> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"

>> . Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's

> God Got to

>> Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among

> African

>> American Youth"

>> . Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-

> Month

>> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"

>> . Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating

>> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"

>> . Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The

> Spiritual

>> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in

>> Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis

> in

>> Addiction Research"

>>

>> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):

>> . Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan

> Marlatt &

>> Jean Kristeller)

>> . Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &

> Kathy Goggin)

>>

>> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):

>> . Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and

> Addiction (Tom

>> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)

>> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop

> may do

>> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the

> workshop)

>>

>> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health

> Education

>> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the

>> three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and

> includes

>> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a

>> reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend

> only

>> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,

> continental

>> breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available

> for

>> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors

> (see

>> the conference web-site for details). For more information about

> the

>> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-

> 2449.

>>

>> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)

>> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

> * To visit your group on the web, go to:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

>

> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> <mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

>

> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2137 hrlywolfiz
The most important lesson-2nd edition? The most important lesson-2nd edition? 1/25/2005 11:40:00 AM


A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out

of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most

important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't

need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely. It has

something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten

how to pray you learn a little about that too.



Can anyone tell me the title of that story? It seems different

groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.



I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in

addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the

meeting.



thanks

Sheila H


0 -1 0 0
2138 pennington2
Re: The most important lesson-2nd edition? The most important lesson-2nd edition? 1/25/2005 1:16:00 PM


The quote is from "There's Nothing the Matter with Me!" (page 499 in

the Second Edition of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous). The

story is in the section "They Nearly Lost All," and the complete quote

reads:



"That taught me the most important lesson I have ever learned in my

entire life. That is that A.A. doesn't need me, but I need A.A. Very

desperately, very sincerely, very humbly. Not all at once, because you

can't get it all at once, just a little bit at a time. They told me,

"You've got to get out and work a little; you've got to give." They

told me that giving was living, and that living was loving, and loving

was God. And you don't have to worry about God, because He's sitting

right in front of your eyes.

You get just a little sobriety, and you get just a little

humility. Not much, just a little. Not the humility of sackcloth and

ashes, but the humility of a man who's glad he's alive and can serve.

You get just a little tolerance, not too much, but just enough to sit

and listen to the other guy."



(quoted text is from page 507 of the Second Edition of the Big Book of

Alcoholics Anonymous)



p2



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "hrlywolfiz" <wolfdancer@c...>

wrote:

>

> A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out

> of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most

> important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't

> need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely. It has

> something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten

> how to pray you learn a little about that too.

>

> Can anyone tell me the title of that story? It seems different

> groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.

>

> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in

> addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the

> meeting.

>

> thanks

> Sheila H


0 -1 0 0
2139 Thumper
Re: The most important lesson-2nd edition? The most important lesson-2nd edition? 1/25/2005 1:31:00 PM


The title of the story you are looking for is in the

Second Edition 499 - 508



THERE'S NOTHING THE MATTER WITH ME!





That's what the man said as he hocked his shoes for

the price of two bottles of Sneaky Pete. He drank

bayzo, canned heat, and shoe polish. He did a

phoney routine in A.A. for a while. And then he got

hold of the real thing.





I found it in a search on silkworth.net. Enjoy!



Paula Barnette





=====

in the right formation, the lifting power of many wings can achieve twice the

distance of any bird flying alone.







__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


0 -1 0 0
2140 Arkie Koehl
Re: The most important lesson-2nd edition? The most important lesson-2nd edition? 1/25/2005 5:04:00 PM


On Jan 25, 2005, at 6:40, hrlywolfiz wrote:



> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in

> addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the

> meeting.



It's fairly common here in Honolulu, in some meetings, to read the

beginning of "More About Alcoholism" in the 3rd Chapter. In the history

meeting (see below), we read the preface to "Pass It On," where it

explains how the book got its name.



Arkie



PS & FWIW: I attend two meetings which have slightly "off the beaten

path" reading formats:



1. Thursday noon, "AA History 101." We read from the

conference-approved histories; we're currently reading "Pass It On."

It's a new meeting, gaining popularity. Not geared at newcomers,

obviously. The way I position it is that I gain a greater appreciation

for my Program by knowing its history; just as I understand my country

better by knowing its history.



2. Friday "High Nooners." Having completed reading all the stories in

the 4th edition, the group purchased several copies of "Experience,

Strength & Hope," the conference-approved collection of all the 1st,

2nd and 3rd Ed. stories no longer appearing. We read a story a week,

and it's wonderful seeing some of the old stories again or coming upon

stories for the first time.



Arkie


0 -1 0 0
2141 john pizzamiglio
Re: Stools and Bottles Stools and Bottles 1/25/2005 10:13:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" <victhor90@y...>

wrote:

>

> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I

> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first

> publish.

>

> Thank you in advance

>

> Victor F.

> Austin, Texas

i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review

listed on retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors

bios to see if it is listed to any one


0 -1 0 0
2142 steve
amateur archivist at it again amateur archivist at it again 1/25/2005 11:21:00 PM


Hello everyone,



Thanks to Mel and others who helped me build an archive for the

kalamazoo Michigan area--it is now safely in the hands of the current

Delegate.



I have moved to Mount Pleasant Michigan and am at it again...if

anyone has any info please pass along, I'm starting from near nothing

here.



Also I've recently heard of a recording of Glenn Cofee sp? in 1969 in

Indiana at a conference--if anyone has any info on him or a Don

Stevens from Michigan that would help too...Thanks a bunch



Steve


0 -1 0 0
2143 Corey Franks
Re: Re: Stools and Bottles Stools and Bottles 1/26/2005


HI Victor. We at www.archivesinternational.org have a picture of Ed Webster

along with Barry Collins those two are the authors of that book and a few others

you may recognize. Take a look we also have much more information on both of

them and will be putting it on out site soon. THX! Corey F.



john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" <victhor90@y...>

wrote:

>

> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I

> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first

> publish.

>

> Thank you in advance

>

> Victor F.

> Austin, Texas

i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review

listed on retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors

bios to see if it is listed to any one











---------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2144 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Re: Stools and Bottles Stools and Bottles 1/26/2005 2:04:00 AM


Dear John (and Victor),



Ed Webster (who lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota) published The Little Red Book

in 1946 under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed had the help and support

of Dr. Bob, who gave numerous suggestions for wording various passages. That was

his most famous book, but Ed also wrote the book you were asking about, Stools

and Bottles (1955), and he also wrote Barroom Reveries (1958) and Our Devilish

Alcoholic Personalities (in 1970, just a year before his death). In various

places in the U.S. and Canada, Ed was the third most widely read A.A. author.



For more information see http://hindsfoot.org/redbk1.html



Jack H., an AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, has all of Ed Webster's

papers, and knows an extraordinary amount about him. We need someone to write a

biography of Ed. Jack's material would be invaluable for that.



Bill Pittman at the Hazelden Archives also knows a good deal. See the Foreword

which Bill wrote for the Fiftieth Anniversary Edition of the Little Red Book for

more about Ed Webster.



Ed went to the famous Founders Day Camping Trips in Minnesota held from 1944 to

1947 (see the photo of Dr. Bob holding a fish he caught on one of these trips in

Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers) and was close to many of the early AA leaders

from places like Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, and Winnipeg. He was especially

close to Dr. Bob, and Dr. Bob warmly supported Ed in his writing and publishing.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend IN)



john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@yahoo.com> wrote:



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" wrote:



I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I was wonder if

anyone new who the author was and when it was first publish.

Thank you in advance

Victor F.

Austin, Texas



i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review listed on

retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors bios to see if it is

listed to any one







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2145 Glenn Chesnut
Stools and Bottles Stools and Bottles 1/26/2005 2:41:00 AM


It's probably simpler to combine these two postings into a single message:



"Stephanie Burgess" <SBURGESS2004@msn.com> wrote in and said: "Stools and

Bottles is written by the same person who wrote The Little Red Book & Our

Devilish Alcoholic Personalities. It comes out of the Nicolette Group in

Minnesota, and was published originally by ?Cobb Webster as I seem to remember.

Since my copies are in storage in Michigan and I am in New Mexico, I cannot

verify the publisher."







James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net> wrote in and said: "For what it is worth,

the page at: http://www.martydee.com/AA/archives/000825.html states: 'Ed

Webster (who later wrote Stools and Bottles and Our Devilish Alcoholic

Personalities) was probably the principal author.' Talking about The Little Red

Book."



To this let me add just a few of notes of my own:



When "The Little Red Book" first came out, the short title was simply "The

Twelve Steps." The long title was "An Interpretation of THE TWELVE STEPS of the

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PROGRAM." It had a dark burgundy cover, and therefore

eventually came to be referred to by AA people as "the little red book," which

was eventually used as the official title.



It said on the title page of the first edition (1946) that it was published by

"Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" in Minneapolis. This simply meant that Barry

COLL-ins and Ed WEB-ster paid for printing it themselves. There was not really

any commercial publishing firm called Coll-Webb. Ed Webster and Barry Collins

did it under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. It was based

on the beginners' lessons which Ed Webster had been giving at the Nicollet Group

for some time. These were the earliest known AA beginners' classes, on the basis

of our current knowledge.



Jack H., the AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, who has all of Ed Webster's

papers, says that Ed was the one who did all the writing on all four books (The

Little Red Book, Stools and Bottles, Barroom Reveries, and Our Devilish

Alcoholic Personalities). Barry Collins seems to have helped pay for getting The

Little Red Book published, Jack says, and that sort of thing, but not to have

been involved in the writing itself.



Well, the one exception to the statement that Ed did all the writing on all four

books, is that Dr. Bob sent a lot of comments to Ed as he published the various

early editions of The Little Red Book, so in one sense we could say that Ed

Webster was the primary author of The Little Red Book, but that Dr. Bob also

played a part in writing it.



If you find a copy of Barroom Reveries anywhere, this is a VERY rare book. Ed

intended it to be a book of AA humor, and it fell flat on its face, Jack says,

so it was never reprinted. The "first edition first printing" is the only

version of this book that exists, and there could not be many copies at all

surviving by this point.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend)















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2146 Naomi Blankenship
Re: I am an alcoholic? I am an alcoholic? 1/26/2005 12:45:00 PM


Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,



I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom

of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't

started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings

on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the

name. On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.

At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.



I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I

have yet to come across here I picked up the note from. Then again

it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too. My sponsor told me

long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important

to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.



I'll keep looking for the reference. Thanks for letting me sharing

and sharing in my sobriety.



Naomi


0 -1 0 0
2147 Nicholas J. Hernandez
Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 12:34:00 PM


How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he

mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was

his work more thouroughly studied?


0 -1 0 0
2148 ArtSheehan
RE: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 3:21:00 PM


Hi Nicholas







In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the

1st edition Big Book. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to

“spiritual awakening” and the term “as the result of these steps” was

changed to “as the result of those steps.” Along with the wording changes to

Step 12, the appendix, “Spiritual Experience” was added (it was appendix I

then, not appendix II).







The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they had

to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one

Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual

experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the

“educational variety.”







The initial version of the “Spiritual Experience” appendix did not contain

the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix until

mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing of

the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term “those

steps” back to “these steps.” The quotation attributed to Spencer originally

appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled “An Artist’s Concept” by Ray

C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book’s dust jacket). Ray C’s story

was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was added

to the appendix.







The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no written

work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation (a

few works have been cited but not verified).







I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if any,

influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the last

sentences of the appendix that “Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are

the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.”







Cheers



Arthur







PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term “survival of

the fittest.”







_____



From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer









How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he

mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was

his work more thouroughly studied?

















Yahoo! Groups Sponsor







ADVERTISEMENT



<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12c56dp7k/M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=gr

phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1106848870/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kcu6pau/*http:/cl

k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1106762470184944>





<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110676

2470184944>







<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=grphealth

/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=773622983>







_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2149 Rob White
RE: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 4:15:00 PM


I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken

from an unpublished letter.



any truth to that?



Rob W.

Baltimore



>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>



Hi Nicholas







In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing

of the

1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed

to

"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these

steps" was

changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording

changes to

Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was

appendix I

then, not appendix II).







The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they

had

to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the

one

Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most

spiritual

experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called

the

"educational variety."







The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not

contain

the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix

until

mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing

of

the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term

"those

steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer

originally

appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's

Concept" by Ray

C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray

C's story

was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was

added

to the appendix.







The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no

written

work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation

(a

few works have been cited but not verified).







I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if

any,

influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the

last

sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open

mindedness are

the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."







Cheers



Arthur







PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term

"survival of

the fittest."







_____



From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer









How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he

mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was

his work more thouroughly studied?

















Yahoo! Groups Sponsor







ADVERTISEMENT



<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12c56dp7k/M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=gr



phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1106848870/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kcu6pau/*http:/cl

k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1106762470184944>







<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110676



2470184944>







<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=grphealth



/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=773622983>







_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>





* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2150 ny-aa@att.net
To Wives To Wives 1/26/2005 4:31:00 PM


The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in

the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter

"To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition

story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has

been found to support that?

___________________________________________



An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray

Cleveland, Ohio

p. 378 in 1st edition



Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").

Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.



There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written

the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob

and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill

wrote it.



She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I

should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say

misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,

and good fortune because we found a new way of living."



Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work

to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home

and their son.



When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but

soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had

to give their problems to God.



She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our

problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.

When we live with God we want for nothing."


0 -1 0 0
2151 ArtSheehan
RE: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 5:06:00 PM


I had the same thought about the source of the quotation - that it might

come from a piece of correspondence rather than a published work.







A reputable web site has had a posting for over a year now asking anyone who

might be aware of the source of the quotation to please identify it. Some

citations were sent in but they haven’t been verified.







Searches through web sites specializing in quotations, either will not have

the quotation in their data base or cite the Big Book as its source (not

surprising since there have been so many Big Books distributed).







Arthur







_____



From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:15 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer







I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken

from an unpublished letter.



any truth to that?



Rob W.

Baltimore



>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>



Hi Nicholas







In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing

of the

1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed

to

"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these

steps" was

changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording

changes to

Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was

appendix I

then, not appendix II).







The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they

had

to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the

one

Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most

spiritual

experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called

the

"educational variety."







The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not

contain

the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix

until

mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing

of

the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term

"those

steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer

originally

appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's

Concept" by Ray

C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray

C's story

was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was

added

to the appendix.







The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no

written

work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation

(a

few works have been cited but not verified).







I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if

any,

influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the

last

sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open

mindedness are

the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."







Cheers



Arthur







PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term

"survival of

the fittest."







_____



From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer









How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he

mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was

his work more thouroughly studied?

















Yahoo! Groups Sponsor







ADVERTISEMENT



<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12c56dp7k/M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=gr



phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1106848870/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kcu6pau/*http:/cl

k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1106762470184944>







<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/

<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110676

> &time=110676



2470184944>







<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=grphealth



/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=773622983>







_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2152 Bill Lash
RE: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 6:07:00 PM


This just in. Can anyone verify this?



Herbert Spencer quote is from his book

"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,

Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192



Special Thanks to Dave Howard

of Escondido CA for sending this.



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill







-----Original Message-----

From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer





I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken

from an unpublished letter.



any truth to that?



Rob W.

Baltimore



>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>



Hi Nicholas







In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing

of the

1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed

to

"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these

steps" was

changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording

changes to

Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was

appendix I

then, not appendix II).







The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they

had

to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the

one

Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most

spiritual

experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called

the

"educational variety."







The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not

contain

the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix

until

mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing

of

the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term

"those

steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer

originally

appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's

Concept" by Ray

C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray

C's story

was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was

added

to the appendix.







The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no

written

work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation

(a

few works have been cited but not verified).







I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if

any,

influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the

last

sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open

mindedness are

the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."







Cheers



Arthur







PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term

"survival of

the fittest."







_____



From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer









How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he

mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was

his work more thouroughly studied?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2153 Steve Aeilts
Re: Re: I am an alcoholic? I am an alcoholic? 1/26/2005 6:41:00 PM


naomi,



well, my sponsor taught me to ID my self (in any open meeting) as:



"My name is Steve, and I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous..."



he showed me a paragraph in the BBook forwords that came from the first edition

where Bill wrote:



"When writing or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our

Fellowship to omit his personal name, designating himself instead as 'a member

of Alcoholics Anonymous.' "



this is on page xiii of the fourth edition.



i do refer to myself as "I'm Steve and i'm an alcoholic" at our Home Group

business meetings or at any closed meeting i might attend.



this is just the way we do it here in Casper, Wyoming.



or at least this is the way i do it here in town.



thanks, and maybe i'll see you on the Great Highway down the road!



i remain,



love&peace, steve a. dos: April 24, 1998

----- Original Message -----

From: Naomi Blankenship

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:45 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: I am an alcoholic?







Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,



I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom

of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't

started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings

on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the

name. On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.

At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.



I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I

have yet to come across here I picked up the note from. Then again

it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too. My sponsor told me

long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important

to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.



I'll keep looking for the reference. Thanks for letting me sharing

and sharing in my sobriety.



Naomi









Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT











------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.









------------------------------------------------------------------------------





No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.4 - Release Date: 1/25/2005



----------



No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.4 - Release Date: 1/25/2005





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2154 Tom P.
Re: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 8:16:00 PM


"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his

Herbert Spencer

"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,

Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192



We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003

Special Thanks to Dave Howard

of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"



This is from http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html



Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet. If I had $225.00

I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-

7623353

but I don't. And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need

to read about any more anyway.



Tom P.

















--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Bill Lash < barefootbill@o... >

wrote:

> This just in. Can anyone verify this?

>

> Herbert Spencer quote is from his book

> "The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,

> Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

>

> Special Thanks to Dave Howard

> of Escondido CA for sending this.

>

> Just Love,

> Barefoot Bill

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@p...]

> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer

>

>

> I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were

taken

> from an unpublished letter.

>

> any truth to that?

>

> Rob W.

> Baltimore

>

> >>> ArtSheehan@m... 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

>

> Hi Nicholas

>

>

>

> In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd

printing

> of the

> 1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed

> to

> "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these

> steps" was

> changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording

> changes to

> Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was

> appendix I

> then, not appendix II).

>

>

>

> The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought

that they

> had

> to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to

the

> one

> Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most

> spiritual

> experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James

called

> the

> "educational variety."

>

>

>

> The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not

> contain

> the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the

appendix

> until

> mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd

printing

> of

> the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the

term

> "those

> steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer

> originally

> appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's

> Concept" by Ray

> C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray

> C's story

> was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the

quotation was

> added

> to the appendix.

>

>

>

> The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no

> written

> work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the

quotation

> (a

> few works have been cited but not verified).

>

>

>

> I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had

much, if

> any,

> influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis

to the

> last

> sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open

> mindedness are

> the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."

>

>

>

> Cheers

>

> Arthur

>

>

>

> PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term

> "survival of

> the fittest."

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@y...]

> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer

>

>

>

>

> How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he

> mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or

was

> his work more thouroughly studied?

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2155 Roy V. Tellis
Re: Author of "Life Saving Words"/Early AA History in India Author of "Life Saving Words"/Early AA History in India 1/27/2005 2:13:00 AM


Dear Nancy,



I may have inadvertantly caused some confusion when I

sent in the email regarding Trevor K., the author of

"Life Saving Words" in the 3rd Edition of the Big

Book. I may have given the impression that Trevor K.

was the founding member of AA in India. In actual fact

the FIRST Indian who sobered up in response to the

Canadian Charley Marshall's advertisemet was a

schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harry

Mathais, to be soon followed by John G., Ignatius P.,

Tony M., and Vithal P. The author of the story Trevor

K. INDEPENDENTLY saw the advertisement, wrote to

Charlie in Delhi, received literature and sobered up

as the result of studying the literature and later had

the opportunity to meet Charley. I apologise for any

confusion caused and am sending you a revised email.



Thank you for letting me share,

Roy T.









__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?

http://my.yahoo.com


0 -1 0 0
2156 Diz Titcher
Re: To Wives To Wives 1/27/2005 6:43:00 AM


In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,

Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.

Diz T.

----- Original Message -----

From: <ny-aa@att.net>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives





>

> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in

> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter

> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition

> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has

> been found to support that?

> ___________________________________________

>

> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray

> Cleveland, Ohio

> p. 378 in 1st edition

>

> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").

> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.

>

> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written

> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob

> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill

> wrote it.

>

> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I

> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say

> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,

> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."

>

> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work

> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home

> and their son.

>

> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but

> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had

> to give their problems to God.

>

> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our

> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.

> When we live with God we want for nothing."

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2157 Roy V. Tellis
Revision: Author of "Life Saving Words" 3rd Edition Revision: Author of "Life Saving Words" 3rd Edition 1/27/2005 2:36:00 AM


Dear Nancy,



My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in

Bombay India in April 1990. I was going through the

brief biograpies of the authors of the stories and I

notices that you did not have the name or accurate

sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words"

from the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends

involved in service in India and am forwarding you

some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA

Manual (Historical section):



HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots

started a meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but

it did not survive the war. Till 1957 a few

individuals attempted sobriety through direct

correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early

1957, a Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to

the Candian Embassy at New Delhi. Prior to his coming

to India, Charley wrote to our co-founder, Bill W.

informing that he was being sent to New Delhi

and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A.

activities, and if there are any contacts there, that

I can get in touch with, I would surely welcome the

opportunity". The reply from General Service Office,

N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti

M. to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence

indicates that Charley M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th

January 1957 and was able to locate Sylvia and

Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place

advertisements in local newspapers offering help to

those with a drinking problem.



The FIRST Indian who responded to the advertisemet was

a schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harold

Mathias, who called on Charley M. personally in New

Delhi. Harry M. spent some days with Charley at Delhi

learning about the disease of alcoholism and the

program and spiritual principles of Alcoholics

Anonymous. He returned to Mumbai armed with the

literature given to him and stopped drinking from 5th

May 1957 till his premature sober death on 5th June,

1967. On his return to Bombay he twelve-stepped John

G., Ignatius P., Tony M., and Vithal P., who were

(are) some of the pioneers in India.



A letter from G.S.O. New York to Charley M. dated 5th

March 1957 saying "Thanks so much for your letter

dated 24th February 1957 and the enclosed registration

card for the New Delhi Group". This indicates that an

A.A. group was started in New Delhi in early February

1957.



The efforts of Harry M. in spreading the message were

indeed stupendous, and by November, 1957, after about

six months, a small group was already functioning in

Mumbai. A letter from G.S.O. New York to Harry M.

dated 17th March 1958, discussed several issues and

enclosed such literature as "The Structure and

Services of AA", and also material on "A.A. and

Hospital Co-operation". Within less than a year the

A.A. group in Mumbai had become active. In the A.A.

Grapevine of October 1958, there was a two page report

of A.A. in India written by Charley M. The report

says that the largest concentration of A.A. members

was in Mumbai mentioning the figure as 23. The A.A.

directory card of December 1958 records that A.A. in

India consisted of 48 members, of whom Mumbai had 30,

Delhi 7, Calcutta 5 and one or two in other cities.



AUTHOR OG LIFE SAVING WORDS

Another pioneer of the A.A. movement outside Mumbai

was Lieutenant Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment

of the Indian Army. He to responded to the newspaper

advertisemnt, and had the opportunity to come in

contact with Charley M. through correspondence. After

receiving literature from Charleyin the mail, Trevor

K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his

death on 31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K.

appears in the BIG BOOK entitled - "Life-saving

words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had the good

fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M. for

the first time, almost a month after the sobered up

through the mail. Charley suggested that he register

as a "loner" due to his army postings. Trevor's

service postings took him to new places in India and

he became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in

India sowing the seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore,

Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,

Calcutta and other cities.



in fellowship

Roy T.

Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India









__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.

http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


0 -1 0 0
2158 ArtSheehan
Herbert Spencer Redux Herbert Spencer Redux 1/27/2005 1:28:00 PM


Hi



Just checked with the webmaster of the link via e-mail.



He replied that the cited source is still not verified.



I'd buy that book if I was sure the quotation is in it.



Sure don't want to pay a $225 tuition to learn that it's not though.



Cheers



Arthur







From: "Tom P." <tomper99@y...

<

SZYeCpCv8eZorpjTVULZwo0AzMkETZClojkxB8LhiEcexINAHDuCosf0p9lmIKO1qr-hhBjw> >

Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:16 am

Subject: Re: Herbert Spencer



"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his

Herbert Spencer

"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,

Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192



We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003

Special Thanks to Dave Howard

of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"



This is from http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html



Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet. If I had $225.00

I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-

7623353

but I don't. And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need

to read about any more anyway.



Tom P.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2159 ArtSheehan
RE: To Wives To Wives 1/27/2005 2:34:00 PM


Mary C Darrah's excellent biography "Sister Ignatia" (pgs 128-129) states

that Bill wrote to Dr Bob that he thought Anne (Dr Bob's wife) should write

the chapter. Anne declined. Darrah goes on to state that a discrepancy

exists in comparing NY and Akron archive records regarding the authorship of

"To Wives." At the end of her commentary, Darrah reports that Marie B wrote

a draft that Bill W revised. I presume this was premised on the Akron

archives records.







Other sources state that Bill W wrote the chapter:







(1) Lois W's in "Lois Remembers" (pg 114) states that Bill wrote the chapter

although she suggested to him that she should write it.







(2) Francis Hartigan in "Bill W" (pgs 114-115) cites Lois as being far

angrier than she described herself in "Lois Remembers" and also states that

Bill W wrote the chapter. Hartigan was Lois W's personal secretary and

confidant.







(3) "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" states "Bill himself wrote the chapter

that came to be called 'To Wives' and Marie B, the wife of a member from

Cleveland, wrote a personal account for the story section of the first

edition."







More sources may comment on the matter, however, barring revelation of the

details in the Akron archive's "indication" the weight of evidence leans to

concluding that Bill W was the author of the chapter rather than Marie B.







But I'd still be very curious to learn what is in the Akron archives data.

Does anyone know?







Cheers



Arthur



_____



From: Diz Titcher [mailto:rtitcher@comcast.net]

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:44 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives







In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,

Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.

Diz T.

----- Original Message -----

From: <ny-aa@att.net>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives





>

> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in

> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter

> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition

> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has

> been found to support that?

> ___________________________________________

>

> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray

> Cleveland, Ohio

> p. 378 in 1st edition

>

> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").

> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.

>

> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written

> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob

> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill

> wrote it.

>

> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I

> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say

> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,

> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."

>

> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work

> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home

> and their son.

>

> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but

> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had

> to give their problems to God.

>

> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our

> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.

> When we live with God we want for nothing."

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>











_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2160 Nicholas J. Hernandez
Re: Herbert Spencer Redux Herbert Spencer Redux 1/28/2005 11:46:00 AM


When you look at the Amazon site, you can check the table of

contents of the book. The source pointing to p 192 is in a chapter

titled "Closed Head Injury" by a David I. Graham. So the chapter is

not even by Herbert Spencer. Maybe Mr. Graham metions the quote,

but I doubt if he cites its source as anything other than Herbert

Spencer or the Big Book.



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/



The bigger question I had was how much influence did the ideas of

Herbert Spencer have on Bill Wilson.



By the way Herbert Spencer was a big influence on Henri Bergson who

in turn had a big influence on William James.


0 -1 0 0
2170 Jaime Maliachi
Jack Alexander''Birthday and place Jack Alexander''Birthday and place 2/8/2005 12:20:00 PM


Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack

Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to

this alcoholic anonymous.

Thanks a lot.



Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote



57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26

fax 57 85 68 44







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2172 Mel Barger
Re: Jack Alexander''Birthday and place Jack Alexander''Birthday and place 2/9/2005 2:06:00 PM


Hi Jaime,

I do know that Jack Alexander died in 1975. He was an AA trustee for a

length of time. Perhaps the 1975 Grapevines would have a mention.

Mel Barger

~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:20 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jack Alexander'Birthday and place









Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack

Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to

this alcoholic anonymous.

Thanks a lot.



Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote



57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26

fax 57 85 68 44







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2173 Charles Knapp
Jack Alexander Jack Alexander 2/9/2005 9:57:00 PM


Hello,



I have been trying for some time to get more information about Jack. I have

written the Sat Evening Post Archives, and they no help at all. They only knew

he wrote for the magazine. I was able to find a list of articles he had written

and I am including that list. I would really like to find a photo of Jack for

our archives, but haven't found a good one yet. The most information I found on

him was from his memorial found in the December 1975 AA Grapevine.

Hope this helps

Charles from California



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



December 1975 AA Grapevine

Passing of Jack Alexander

Recalls Early AA Growth



Our Fellowship has reason to be forever grateful to Jack Alexander, who died on

September 17 in St. Petersburg, Fla., at 73. AA was less than six years old,

with a membership around 2,000, when the reporter and magazine writer was

assigned to do a Saturday Evening Post article on the obscure group of

recovering alcoholics.





Jack approached the job skeptically, but ended his research as "a true AA

convert in spirit," in the words of co-founder Bill W. The article (now

re-printed as an AA pamphlet, "The Jack Alexander Article") was published in the

March 1, 1941, issue - and by the end of that year, AA membership had reached

8,000! In the May 1945 Grapevine, Jack told the story-behind-the-story, "Were

the AAs Pulling My Leg?'





During Jack's 1951-56 service as a non-alcoholic trustee on the AA General

Service Board, he "added the final editorial touch" to the manuscript of the

"Twelve and Twelve." He was a senior editor on the Post at his retirement, in

1964. After he and his wife (who survives him) moved to Florida, he kept in

touch with AA until his health began to fail.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ALEXANDER, JACK Alphabetical



a.. * Alcoholics Anonymous, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941

b.. * All Father's Chillun Got Heavens, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18

1939

c.. * The Amazing Story of Walt Disney, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31,

Nov 7 1953

d.. * Border Without Bayonets, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940

e.. * Boss on the Spot, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939

f.. * Buyer No. 1, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941

g.. * Cellini to Hearst to Klotz, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941

h.. * The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series), (ar) The Saturday

Evening Post Apr 12 1947

i.. * The Cop with the Criminal Brother, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7

1959

j.. * Cover Man (Norman Rockwell), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943

k.. * The Dagwood and Blondie Man, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948;

about Chic Young.

l.. * Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar

2 1957

m.. * The Drunkard's Best Friend, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;

Alcoholics Anonymous.

n.. * Everybody's Business, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A

great library can house romance as well as books.

o.. * He Rose from the Rich, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939

p.. * Iron Floats to Market, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939

q.. * "Just Call Mr. C.R.", (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941

r.. * King Hanky-Panky of Jersey, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940

s.. * The Last Shall be First, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939

t.. * Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8

1938

u.. * Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9

1958

v.. * Nervous Ice, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941

w.. * The Ordeal of Judge Medina, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950

x.. * Panhandle Puck, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944

y.. * Reformer in the Promised Land, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22

1939

z.. * The Restaurants That Nickels Built, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec

18 1954

aa.. * Rip-Roaring Baillie, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946

ab.. * The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy), (ar) The Saturday

Evening Post Aug 9 1947

ac.. * Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30

1949

ad.. * They Sparked the Carrier Revolution, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep

16 1944

ae.. * The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3

1938

af.. * Ungovernable Governor, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943

ag.. * What a President They Picked, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24

1951

ah.. * What Happened to Judge Crater?, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10

1960

ai.. * The World's Greatest Newspaper, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26

1941

aj.. * Young Man of Manhattan, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939





ALEXANDER, JACK by Date



a.. The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3

1938

b.. Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8

1938

c.. The Last Shall be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939

d.. He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939

e.. Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939

f.. Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22 1939

g.. Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939

h.. All Father's Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18

1939

i.. Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939

j.. Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940

k.. King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940

l.. "Just Call Mr. C.R." (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941

m.. Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941

n.. Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941

o.. Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941

p.. The World's Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26 1941

q.. Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941

r.. Everybody's Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A great

library can house romance as well as books.

s.. Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943

t.. Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943

u.. Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944

v.. They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 16

1944

w.. Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946

x.. The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday Evening

Post Apr 12 1947

y.. The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday Evening

Post Aug 9 1947

z.. The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948;

about Chic Young.

aa.. Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30

1949

ab.. The Drunkard's Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;

Alcoholics Anonymous.

ac.. The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950

ad.. What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24 1951

ae.. The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31,

Nov 7 1953

af.. The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 18

1954

ag.. Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 2

1957

ah.. Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9

1958

ai.. The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7

1959

aj.. What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10 1960













----- Original Message -----

From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:25 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 699









There is 1 message in this issue.



Topics in this digest:



1. Jack Alexander'Birthday and place

From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>





________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________



Message: 1

Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:20:21 -0600

From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>

Subject: Jack Alexander'Birthday and place





Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack

Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to

this alcoholic anonymous.

Thanks a lot.



Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote



57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26

fax 57 85 68 44







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________







------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links









------------------------------------------------------------------------













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2174 Patrick Morgan
RE: Jack Alexander Jack Alexander 2/10/2005 8:19:00 AM


I’ll check and see if we have a picture for you im sure we have archives on

jack let me get back to you

Thanks

Webmaster@archivesinternational.org (Pat M.)



_____



From: Charles Knapp [mailto:cdknapp@pacbell.net]

Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:57 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jack Alexander



Hello,



I have been trying for some time to get more information about Jack. I

have written the Sat Evening Post Archives, and they no help at all. They

only knew he wrote for the magazine. I was able to find a list of articles

he had written and I am including that list. I would really like to find a

photo of Jack for our archives, but haven't found a good one yet. The most

information I found on him was from his memorial found in the December 1975

AA Grapevine.

Hope this helps

Charles from California



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----



December 1975 AA Grapevine

Passing of Jack Alexander

Recalls Early AA Growth



Our Fellowship has reason to be forever grateful to Jack Alexander, who died

on September 17 in St. Petersburg, Fla., at 73. AA was less than six years

old, with a membership around 2,000, when the reporter and magazine writer

was assigned to do a Saturday Evening Post article on the obscure group of

recovering alcoholics.





Jack approached the job skeptically, but ended his research as "a true AA

convert in spirit," in the words of co-founder Bill W. The article (now

re-printed as an AA pamphlet, "The Jack Alexander Article") was published in

the March 1, 1941, issue - and by the end of that year, AA membership had

reached 8,000! In the May 1945 Grapevine, Jack told the

story-behind-the-story, "Were the AAs Pulling My Leg?'





During Jack's 1951-56 service as a non-alcoholic trustee on the AA General

Service Board, he "added the final editorial touch" to the manuscript of the

"Twelve and Twelve." He was a senior editor on the Post at his retirement,

in 1964. After he and his wife (who survives him) moved to Florida, he kept

in touch with AA until his health began to fail.





----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----



ALEXANDER, JACK Alphabetical



a.. * Alcoholics Anonymous, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941

b.. * All Father's Chillun Got Heavens, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov

18 1939

c.. * The Amazing Story of Walt Disney, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct

31, Nov 7 1953

d.. * Border Without Bayonets, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940

e.. * Boss on the Spot, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939

f.. * Buyer No. 1, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941

g.. * Cellini to Hearst to Klotz, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1

1941

h.. * The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series), (ar) The Saturday

Evening Post Apr 12 1947

i.. * The Cop with the Criminal Brother, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Nov 7 1959

j.. * Cover Man (Norman Rockwell), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13

1943

k.. * The Dagwood and Blondie Man, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10

1948; about Chic Young.

l.. * Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Mar 2 1957

m.. * The Drunkard's Best Friend, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1

1950; Alcoholics Anonymous.

n.. * Everybody's Business, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A

great library can house romance as well as books.

o.. * He Rose from the Rich, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939

p.. * Iron Floats to Market, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939

q.. * "Just Call Mr. C.R.", (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941

r.. * King Hanky-Panky of Jersey, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26

1940

s.. * The Last Shall be First, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939

t.. * Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Oct 8 1938

u.. * Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Aug 9 1958

v.. * Nervous Ice, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941

w.. * The Ordeal of Judge Medina, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12

1950

x.. * Panhandle Puck, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944

y.. * Reformer in the Promised Land, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22

1939

z.. * The Restaurants That Nickels Built, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Dec 18 1954

aa.. * Rip-Roaring Baillie, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8

1946

ab.. * The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy), (ar) The Saturday

Evening Post Aug 9 1947

ac.. * Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul

30 1949

ad.. * They Sparked the Carrier Revolution, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Sep 16 1944

ae.. * The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Sep 3 1938

af.. * Ungovernable Governor, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943

ag.. * What a President They Picked, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24

1951

ah.. * What Happened to Judge Crater?, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep

10 1960

ai.. * The World's Greatest Newspaper, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul

26 1941

aj.. * Young Man of Manhattan, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939





ALEXANDER, JACK by Date



a.. The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3

1938

b.. Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct

8 1938

c.. The Last Shall be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939

d.. He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939

e.. Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939

f.. Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22

1939

g.. Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939

h.. All Father's Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18

1939

i.. Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939

j.. Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940

k.. King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940

l.. "Just Call Mr. C.R." (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941

m.. Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941

n.. Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941

o.. Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941

p.. The World's Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26

1941

q.. Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941

r.. Everybody's Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A

great library can house romance as well as books.

s.. Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943

t.. Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943



u.. Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944

v.. They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep

16 1944

w.. Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946

x.. The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday

Evening Post Apr 12 1947

y.. The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday

Evening Post Aug 9 1947

z.. The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10

1948; about Chic Young.

aa.. Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30

1949

ab.. The Drunkard's Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;

Alcoholics Anonymous.

ac.. The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950



ad.. What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24

1951

ae.. The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct

31, Nov 7 1953

af.. The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec

18 1954

ag.. Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Mar 2 1957

ah.. Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug

9 1958

ai.. The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov

7 1959

aj.. What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10

1960













----- Original Message -----

From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:25 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 699









There is 1 message in this issue.



Topics in this digest:



1. Jack Alexander'Birthday and place

From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>





________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________



Message: 1

Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:20:21 -0600

From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>

Subject: Jack Alexander'Birthday and place





Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack

Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to

this alcoholic anonymous.

Thanks a lot.



Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote



57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26

fax 57 85 68 44







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________







------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links









------------------------------------------------------------------------













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











Yahoo! Groups Sponsor





ADVERTISEMENT



<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cd4t0kb/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=gr

phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1108093379/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kefumcd/*http:/cl

k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1108006979330584>





<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110800

6979330584>





<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grphealth

/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=200905221>



_____



Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2175 George Cleveland
Bill W and depression Bill W and depression 2/10/2005 1:34:00 PM


What is the best source for information on what Bill W did to overcome

his depression? And is there solid information on his research with

Vitamin B therapies?



Thanks.



George Cleveland


0 -1 0 0
2176 ArtSheehan
RE: Bill W and depression Bill W and depression 2/10/2005 10:15:00 PM


Hi George



The references in the text below offer some informative

reading.



SOURCE REFERENCES:



AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big

Book, AAWS



AACOA AA Comes of Age, AAWS



BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft

cover)



BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard

cover)



BW-40 Bill W My First 40 Years,

autobiography (hard cover)



GB Getting Better Inside

Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft cover)



GTBT Grateful to Have Been There by

Nell Wing (soft cover)



LOH The Language of the Heart, AA

Grapevine Inc



LR Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson



NG Not God, by Ernest Kurtz

(expanded edition, soft cover)



NW New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)



PIO Pass It On, AAWS



1912



Sept, at the beginning of the school year at Burr and

Burton, Bill W was president of the senior class, star

football player, star pitcher and captain of the baseball

team and first violin in the school orchestra. (BW-FH 19)



Nov 18, Bill W's schoolmate and "first love" Bertha Bamford,

died from hemorrhaging after surgery at the Flower Hospital

in NYC. She was the daughter of the rector of the

Manchester, VT Zion Episcopal Church. Bill learned about it

at school on the 19th. It began a 3-year episode of

depression, which severely affected his performance at

school and home. (AACOA 54, PIO 35-36, BW-RT 51-58, NG 12,

BW-FH 19-20)



1915



Early, at the start of his second semester at Norwich, Bill

W hurt his elbow and insisted on being treated by his mother

in Boston. She did not receive him well and immediately sent

him back. Bill had panic attacks that he perceived as heart

attacks. Every attempt to perform physical exercise caused

him to be taken to the college infirmary. After several

weeks of being unable to find anything wrong, the doctors

sent him home. This time he went to his grandparents in East

Dorset, VT. (BW-FH 21-22)



Spring, Bill W's condition worsened in East Dorset but

doctors could find nothing physically wrong. He spent much

of the early spring in bed complaining of "sinking spells."

(BW-FH 22) Later, his grandfather, Fayette, motivated him

with the prospect of opening an agency to sell automobiles.

Bill's depression lifted and he began trying to interest

people in buying automobiles. He wrote to his mother that he

nearly sold an automobile to the Bamfords (the parents of

his lost love). (BW-FH 23)



1927



On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room

apartment at 38 Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough

for Bill's desires, he enlarged it by renting the apartment

next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT

144, LR 71, PIO 80-81)



By the end of 1927, Bill W was so depressed by his behavior

and drinking that he signed over to Lois all rights, title

and interests of his stockbroker accounts with Baylis and

Co. and Tobey and Kirk. (LR 72, PIO 82)



1934



Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him

about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill

fell into a deep depression (his "defV3B1zxbP_BYs3ztECyshMp70uJjxeB_DAaRhOoGxlur5m">pauguspass@yahoo.com ]

Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and depression







What is the best source for information on what Bill W did

to overcome

his depression? And is there solid information on his

research with

Vitamin B therapies?



Thanks.



George Cleveland























Yahoo! Groups Sponsor







ADVERTISEMENT



<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ckmmk9j/M=298184.6018725.7038

619.3001176/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1108170570/A=253

2114/R=2/SIG=12knav1rj/*http:/clk.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0

020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1108084170126921>





<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct

/01/&time=1108084170126921>







<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.300

1176/D=grphealth/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=215587363>







_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=

Unsubscribe>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2177 chesbayman56
Frank Lynch Frank Lynch 2/10/2005 11:39:00 PM


Hello Folks,

I have been trying, with little success, to get any historical info

on Frank Lynch and his wife. I know that he was very instrumental in

helping several people to get sober in the mid- Atlantic region and

that his sponsor was Clarence Snyder. He brought meetings into St.

Elizabeth's Hospital in DC and started several regular meetings in

Southern Maryland. I also have heard it said that he died with a

resentment about his story not being published in the 3rd edition.

However I have spoken with another who had lunch with him a week

before he passed away in the mid 80's and that he was more concerned

with helping this person get sober than he was with his own physical

health.



Any information would be greatly appreciated

Billy C

Annapolis Maryland


0 -1 0 0
2178 Charlie Bishop Jr.
Re: B-3 & LSD from Charlie Bishop, Jr. B-3 & LSD from Charlie Bishop, Jr. 2/11/2005 12:02:00 AM


There are two books published by The Bishop of Books that treat the B-3 and LSD

questions.



The COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ. Wheeling, WV, The Bishop of Books, 1999. FIRST

EDITION, with SIGNED KURTZ BOOKPLATE. 231pp. Eleven great essays by Kurtz over

the years, including "Bill W. & LSD." Others: William James, Lay Treatment, AA

Spirituality, Shame, Research on A.A., etc. Kurtz, of course, is the author of

"NOT-GOD: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous." There are only 17 copies left

out of the first edition printing of 1,000 copies. $17. + $3. USPS book rate

postage.



and ...



Bill Wilson & The Vitamin B-3 Therapy 1965-1971. Reprinted by The Bishop of

Books, Wheeling, WV, 2002, approx. 100 pages, 8.5x11" softbound. Three

communications from Bill W. to A.A.'s Physicians about the research done on B-3.

This was NOT Conference-approved literature and was Bill's last major project

before his death. A good number of the early oldtimers in AA took niacin every

day. Only 3 copies left out of the second reprinting of 50 copes. $25. + $3.

USPS first class mailing.



I rarely ever post any message promoting my books and will not feel offended in

the least if you decide not to use this; however, both items contain solid

information not available anywhere else about B-3 and LSD. As always, thanks

and servus, Charlie Bishop, Jr. (304) 242-2937 or email me at

bishopbk@comcast.net or write: 46 Eureka Ave., Wheeling, WV 26003.



amen.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2179 Theron
RE: Bill W and depression Bill W and depression 2/11/2005 12:59:00 PM


The pamphlet that Bill had published on niacin therapy was a collection of

articles by several doctors who had done research in the area. My former

sponsor (since moved out of state) had a copy and I believe I saw one at

the Akron A.A. Archives, too, if memory serves correctly (always

questionable). When searching for information on this, try using

"nicotonic acid" and "nicotinamide"; both are forms of niacin and the terms

are often used in the research literature.



The Akron Archives also has a letter from Bill W. to a member on the

subject of depression; if you get a chance to visit, be sure to ask to see it.



Peace,



Theron





At 10:15 PM 2/10/2005, ArtSheehan wrote:





>Hi George

>

>The references in the text below offer some informative

>reading.

>

>SOURCE REFERENCES:

>

>AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big

>Book, AAWS

>

>AACOA AA Comes of Age, AAWS

>

>BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft

>cover)

>

>BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard

>cover)

>

>BW-40 Bill W My First 40 Years,

>autobiography (hard cover)

>

>GB Getting Better Inside

>Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft cover)

>

>GTBT Grateful to Have Been There by

>Nell Wing (soft cover)

>

>LOH The Language of the Heart, AA

>Grapevine Inc

>

>LR Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

>

>NG Not God, by Ernest Kurtz

>(expanded edition, soft cover)

>

>NW New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)

>

>PIO Pass It On, AAWS

>

>1912

>

>Sept, at the beginning of the school year at Burr and

>Burton, Bill W was president of the senior class, star

>football player, star pitcher and captain of the baseball

>team and first violin in the school orchestra. (BW-FH 19)

>

>Nov 18, Bill W's schoolmate and "first love" Bertha Bamford,

>died from hemorrhaging after surgery at the Flower Hospital

>in NYC. She was the daughter of the rector of the

>Manchester, VT Zion Episcopal Church. Bill learned about it

>at school on the 19th. It began a 3-year episode of

>depression, which severely affected his performance at

>school and home. (AACOA 54, PIO 35-36, BW-RT 51-58, NG 12,

>BW-FH 19-20)

>

>1915

>

>Early, at the start of his second semester at Norwich, Bill

>W hurt his elbow and insisted on being treated by his mother

>in Boston. She did not receive him well and immediately sent

>him back. Bill had panic attacks that he perceived as heart

>attacks. Every attempt to perform physical exercise caused

>him to be taken to the college infirmary. After several

>weeks of being unable to find anything wrong, the doctors

>sent him home. This time he went to his grandparents in East

>Dorset, VT. (BW-FH 21-22)

>

>Spring, Bill W's condition worsened in East Dorset but

>doctors could find nothing physically wrong. He spent much

>of the early spring in bed complaining of "sinking spells."

>(BW-FH 22) Later, his grandfather, Fayette, motivated him

>with the prospect of opening an agency to sell automobiles.

>Bill's depression lifted and he began trying to interest

>people in buying automobiles. He wrote to his mother that he

>nearly sold an automobile to the Bamfords (the parents of

>his lost love). (BW-FH 23)

>

>1927

>

>On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room

>apartment at 38 Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough

>for Bill's desires, he enlarged it by renting the apartment

>next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT

>144, LR 71, PIO 80-81)

>

>By the end of 1927, Bill W was so depressed by his behavior

>and drinking that he signed over to Lois all rights, title

>and interests of his stockbroker accounts with Baylis and

>Co. and Tobey and Kirk. (LR 72, PIO 82)

>

>1934

>

>Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him

>about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill

>fell into a deep depression (his "deflation at depth") and

>had a profound spiritual experience after crying out "If

>there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later

>assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to

>what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would

>later refer to this as his "white flash" or "hot flash"

>experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG

>19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)

>

>1944

>

>Summer, Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Tiebout

>for debilitating episodes of depression. Some AA members

>were outraged and castigated Bill for "not working the

>program," "secretly drinking" and "pill taking." Bill

>endured the attacks in silence. (BW-RT 299, BW-40 166, BW-FH

>6, 160-161, 166, PIO 292-303, GTBT 121)

>

>1945

>

>Bill W started seeing psychotherapist, Dr Frances Weeks (a

>Jungian) once a week on Fridays. He continued to see her

>until 1949 for his episodes of depression. (BW-FH 166-167,

>GB 66, PIO 334-335)

>

>1955

>

>After 1955 the depression that had plagued Bill W for so

>long, lifted and he regained his bright outlook. However,

>during 1956, his best friend, Mark Whalon, died. (PIO 359,

>364)

>

>1956

>

>There is a link between Bill's LSD and niacin (vitamin B3)

>experiences:

>

>British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to

>Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and

>Abram Hoffer (the founders of orthomolecular psychiatry).

>Humphrey and Osmond were working with schizophrenic and

>alcoholic patients at a Canadian hospital.

>

>Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in CA

>on August 29, 1956. Medically supervised by psychiatrist

>Sidney Cohen of the LA VA hospital, the LSD experiments

>occurred well prior to the "hippie era" of the late 1960's.

>

>At the time, LSD was thought to have psychotherapeutic

>potential (research was also being funded by the National

>Institutes of Health and National Academy of Sciences). The

>intent of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an experience

>similar to the DTs in hopes that it might shock alcoholics

>away from alcohol.

>

>Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who

>accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker

>and Lois Wilson. Marty M and other AA members participated

>in NY (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from

>Roosevelt Hospital).

>

>Bill had several experiments with LSD up to 1959 (perhaps

>into the early 1960's). The book "Pass It On" (PIO 368-377)

>reports the full LSD story and notes that there were

>repercussions within AA over these activities. Lois was a

>reluctant participant and claimed to have had no response to

>the chemical.

>

>1966

>

>Hoffer and Osmond did research that later influenced Bill,

>in December 1966, to enthusiastically embrace a campaign to

>promote vitamin B3 (niacin) therapy. It also created

>Traditions issues within the Fellowship and caused a bit of

>an uproar. The book "Pass It On" (PIO 387-391) has a fairly

>full discussion.

>

>Note:

>

>In January 1958, Bill wrote a Grapevine article titled "The

>Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety" commenting that he had a

>bad episode of depression after 1955. The article also

>mentions what he did in response to it.

>

>Cheers

>

>Arthur

>

> _____

>

>From: George Cleveland [mailto:pauguspass@yahoo.com]

>Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 PM

>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and depression

>

>

>

>What is the best source for information on what Bill W did

>to overcome

>his depression? And is there solid information on his

>research with

>Vitamin B therapies?

>

>Thanks.

>

>George Cleveland

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

>

>

>

>ADVERTISEMENT

>

><http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ckmmk9j/M=298184.6018725.7038

>619.3001176/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1108170570/A=253

>2114/R=2/SIG=12knav1rj/*http:/clk.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0

>020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1108084170126921>

>

>

><http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct

>/01/&time=1108084170126921>

>

>

>

><http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.300

>1176/D=grphealth/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=215587363>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>* To visit your group on the web, go to:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

>

>* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

>AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>Unsubscribe>

>

>* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

>

>

>

>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>--

>No virus found in this incoming message.

>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005


0 -1 0 0
2180 lghforum
Jim''s insanity... BB Jim''s insanity... BB 2/10/2005 11:25:00 PM


A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking

begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out

anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.

Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me

identify "Jim" in this story...

"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man

has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative

automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)



Thanks!



LGH


0 -1 0 0
2181 Robert Stonebraker
RE: Jim''s insanity... BB Jim''s insanity... BB 2/12/2005 9:23:00 AM


http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story



Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another

Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there, plus a

short biography.



Bob S, Richmond, IN









-----Original Message-----

From: lghforum [mailto:lghforum@earthlink.net]

Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB







A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking

begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out

anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.

Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me

identify "Jim" in this story...

"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man

has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative

automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)



Thanks!



LGH





















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2182 jlobdell54
Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander 2/13/2005 3:07:00 PM


The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who

died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8

1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE

notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus

born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous

Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell


0 -1 0 0
2183 Bill Lash
AA Here Meet With Chief of Society (Tuscon AZ 4/6/44) AA Here Meet With Chief of Society (Tuscon AZ 4/6/44) 2/14/2005 2:25:00 PM


The author of this article was a close friend of Dave S. The author was not

one of us and passed away last year at age 79. His wife, who is also close

friend, found this newspaper article in his things and copied it for Dave.

At the time of its writing (April 6, 1944) Louis was a reporter for the

Tucson Daily Star.

Anecdotally - at the time of this article Dave was 8 years old. The only

meeting of AA was held at the church he attended. He remembers playing

basketball in the courtyard while the meeting (which he didn't know was AA)

was going on in an adjacent room. Bill W. may have been in that room but

Dave was too young to know it.





Alcoholics Anonymous Here Meet With Chief of Society

By Louis Witzeman



They call him simply “Bill.” He’s the head of Alcoholics Anonymous,

national organization of men and women who were formerly alcohol addicts.

Tall, lanky, with his hair slightly grayed, he looks more like a Texas

cattleman than a Vermonter and an ex-Wall Street broker. One of the

shrewdest of amateur psychologists, he today concludes his visit to Tuscon

as the guest of the Tuscon unit of “AA.”

Bill has led an interesting life. Alcoholics Anonymous – actually there was

no name for the group until 1939 – got its start in 1934 in Akron, Ohio, at

a time when Bill had been pronounced an “incurable alcoholic” by medical

men. He was in Akron on a business trip and had made a failure of it.

After he had been pronounced “incurable” a few months before, he had taken a

hospital “cure” for alcoholism and it had worked for a month. Faced by

failure, Bill saw his “cure” relaxing its hold, just as it had several times

before.



Talked Out Of Binge

Before he lost control of himself, however, he happened to meet an Akron

doctor who was also an alcoholic. The two of them got together and talked

themselves out of going on the binge they had both contemplated. Instead,

they found the release they had sought in trying to stop other alcoholics

from other binges.

They weren’t very successful – Bill says so quite bluntly. In the first

year of their work, the two of them led just five men to recovery, the next

year ten, the next 20 and the next 60. In spite of the fact that he had

been on the receiving end of virtually every sort of cure in existence, Bill

had not found any key to what later developed into his own special knack.

Then, in 1939, he decided to put his ideas on paper. He wrote an anonymous

book, entitled it “Alcoholics Anonymous” and thus founded the organization.

In it he finally found expression of his ideas.



Progress Swift

Once the book was written, progress became swift. Headquarters were

established in New York City and today AA adds approximately 500 members per

month. Thousands write to find out what the group has to offer.

It’s a combination of the attitudes of the preacher, the doctor and the

former alcoholic, he says. He recognizes alcoholism as a disease, one of

which no one can ever be “cured” but from which he can “recover.” Never

when there is a chance of a relapse is there a cure, he says, and any

alcoholic stands a chance of a relapse. An alcoholic can recover by the

change in outlook advocated by the doctors or the faith advocated by the

clergy, Bill says, but it is AA’s job to provide the element which makes the

remedy stick. That element, he says, is simply association with other

alcoholics in “converting” them.



Anonymity Used

Anonymity is the protection that allows a man to try to cure himself of his

addiction, Bill maintains.

He and the Akron doctor together founded their groups on that thesis. In

250 communities they now number 10,000 members. They have chapters in

Canada, Australia, and India in addition to those in the United States.

Traveling service men all over the world spread their work. In New York

City they maintain an office employing four full-time secretaries.

Bill’s salary is paid by a special fund created by John D. Rockefeller which

gives him $30 per week. In addition to this, he makes approximately the

same amount from sales of his books. He and his four secretaries are the

only paid members in the entire organization of 10,000. No chapter pays any

dues for any work other than its own – there are no national dues.



Board of Trustees

A board of trustees composed of seven men manages the organization’s

financial activities in New York. This board is composed of four New York

business men and three former alcoholics. The four business men, with three

of the secretaries, are the only members of the entire group of 10,000 who

are not former alcoholics.

Tuscon’s group is small – now consisting of 14 members. It was formed only

a few years ago. Like all groups of its sort, it permits no use of names of

members. Those interested in its work need simply write to Box 4432,

University Station. All whose names are turned in to the group will be

personally visited by a member of the group. To those interested in being

cured, AA will point out that it can cure 50 per cent of them on the first

try, and 25 per cent on the second. The remainder will either fall out

completely, or be partially cured.

Bill was paying his first visit to Tuscon last night. He came here two days

ago from the Pacific coast, where he was visiting other groups. Last night

he met members of the Tuscon group. Today he goes on eastward with his

wife, planning to visit other towns and other AA units as he goes.


0 -1 0 0
2184 richard johnson
court slips??? Any Info?? court slips??? Any Info?? 2/14/2005 7:36:00 PM


I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in jail

or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard

----- Original Message -----

From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704





>

>

> There is 1 message in this issue.

>

> Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander

> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

>

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> ________________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000

> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander

>

>

> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who

> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8

> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE

> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus

> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous

> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> ________________________________________________________________________

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2185 John S.
RE: Jim''s insanity... BB Jim''s insanity... BB 2/14/2005 8:39:00 PM


Bob,



That’s an interesting article and one I enjoyed reading, it’s also an

excellent web site I thank you so much for the information; but it doesn’t

address the original question to wit: “Who is ‘Jim’ and what else is known

about the car salesman who used to own the agency he now works for?”



In Love,



John S.



"If you can read this, thank a teacher"

This e-mail scanned by 'Norton' anti-virus software



-----Original Message-----

From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]

Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:24 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB





http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story



Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another

Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there, plus a

short biography.



Bob S, Richmond, IN









-----Original Message-----

From: lghforum [mailto:lghforum@earthlink.net]

Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB







A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking

begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out

anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.

Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me

identify "Jim" in this story...

"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man

has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative

automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)



Thanks!



LGH





















Yahoo! Groups Links























Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT





<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cm28rus/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=gr

phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1108311394/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kuqjj7d/*http://c

lk.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1108224994734410>





_____



Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comAAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2186 michael oates
NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS 2/14/2005 6:53:00 PM


DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR

HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP


0 -1 0 0
2187 ArtSheehan
Consolidated: Re: Jim''s insanity... BB Consolidated: Re: Jim''s insanity... BB 2/15/2005 10:14:00 AM


(Several replies are consolidated below - Co-Moderator)







From:

<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id

=180110428> "lghforum" <lghforum@earthlink.net> Date: Sat Feb 12,

2005 11:06pm

Bob . Thanks! But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the "Jim" who

thinks

".he could take whiskey if only he mixed it with milk!" on page 37 of

the BB 3rd Edition?







From:

<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id

=6285566> TBaerMojo@aol.com Date: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:18pm

People in Alcoholics Anonymous West Baltimore Group + A. A. +

alcoholism +

recovery + aa + AA + health. Jim -- listed as 35-7 Ralph F "Jim" car

sales, mixed milk and whiskey







From: <mailto:%22Jay%20Lawyer%22%20%3cejlawyer@midtel.net %3e> "Jay

Lawyer" <ejlawyer@midtel.net> Date: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:40pm

John - Ralph Furlong is the Jim in this little story about a car

salesman. - Jay







From:

<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id

=34059972> "Maxwell Clemo" <maxclem@msn.com> Date: Tue Feb 15, 2005

7:02am

Suggest you try this one........Max C.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell30.html







-----Original Message-----







From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@i...

<

JL0N8jP8N0V3oCgfwmZWpoT6VnudkxGl7RqHbqevXQ3jbWEkDjHOLaAttUurJnQT-ea017

YaSkJZVwyaSz5ERM_poa0r> ] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:24 AM

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB



http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story



Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another

Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there,

plus a

short biography. Bob S, Richmond, IN







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2188 Rob White
Re: court slips??? Any Info?? court slips??? Any Info?? 2/15/2005 8:27:00 AM


Court slips started around here (Baltimore) in the 70's when Judge Dave

Bates , a recovering alcoholic, started sending people to AA meetings.

There was a big uproar in the 80's about whether groups should sign

slips .

Most of that has worked itself out. Some do , some don't.



Rob W.

Baltimore



>>> hotshots@elltel.net 02/14/05 07:36PM >>>



I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in

jail

or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard

----- Original Message -----

From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704





>

>

> There is 1 message in this issue.

>

> Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander

> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________

>

________________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000

> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander

>

>

> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who

> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8

> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE

> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus

> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous

> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell

>

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________

>

________________________________________________________________________

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

>

>













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2189 Margie Keith
Re: NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS 2/15/2005 9:26:00 AM


Jimmy Kinnon

Wikipedia

Jimmy Kinnon



James P. Kinnon (commonly known as Jimmy Kinnon or "Jimmy K") was the

founder of Narcotics Anonymous (NA), an international association of

recovering drug addicts. During his lifetime, he was usually referred to as

"Jimmy K" due to NA's principle of personal anonymity on the public level.

It appears he never referred to himself as the founder of NA although the

record clearly shows that he played this role.



From the very start, unlike many other attempts to form self-help groups for

drug addicts, Narcotics Anonymous was based on both the Twelve Steps and the

Twelve Traditions devised by Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and adapted to the

specific needs of NA. While there is no official biography of Jimmy Kinnon,

a certain amount of pertinent information can be found on the web and in

print (see links and resources below).



Kinnon was born on 5 April, 1911 in Paisley, Scotland. On 8 August, 1923, he

arrived with his family on Ellis Island, NY. He worked as a roofer,

struggling with his drug addiction until he achieved permanent and complete

abstinence from all drugs in Alcoholics Anonymous on 2 February 1950.



He and a few other drug addicts who had met in AA started holding a series

of independent meetings for drug addicts, beginning 17 August 1953. The

first documented recovery meeting of Narcotics Anonymous was held on 5

October 1953 in Southern California. Today, members of Narcotics Anonymous

hold more than 30,000 weekly meetings in over 100 countries worldwide.



Kinnon is a key figure in the history of Narcotics Anonymous for several

reasons. He wrote several portions of the Little White Booklet, which formed

the basis for NA's basic text, published in 1983 under the title Narcotics

Anonymous (ISBN 0912075023). This book also contains his anonymous

biography, titled We Do Recover. Kinnon also designed the NA logo and served

as the volunteer office manager of NA's World Service Office from the time

it began to 1983.



Kinnon died on 9 July 1985, having spent the last 35 years of his life as a

"clean" and recovering member of Narcotics Anonymous. At the time of his

death, his daring vision of a worldwide autonomous association of recovering

drug addicts had become a reality.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"If I ever have an epitaph on my headstone [...] it should read something

like this: All we did was sow some seeds and worked and wrought to make this

work, so that we and others could live -- in Peace, in Freedom and in Love."



James P. Kinnon, 1982



----- Original Message -----

From: michael oates

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:53 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS









DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR

HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP

















Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT











------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2190 timderan
RE: court slips??? Any Info?? court slips??? Any Info?? 2/15/2005 1:18:00 AM


I believe one of the pieces of literature on Corrections work talks about

this.



tmd



-----Original Message-----

From: richard johnson [mailto:hotshots@elltel.net]

Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:36 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] court slips??? Any Info??







I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in jail

or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard

----- Original Message -----

From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704





>

>

> There is 1 message in this issue.

>

> Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander

> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

>

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> ________________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000

> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander

>

>

> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who

> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8

> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE

> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus

> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous

> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> ________________________________________________________________________

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

>

>











Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2191 groovycharacterdefects
Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster 2/15/2005 12:37:00 PM


In a post concerning Ed Webster and his book, "Stools and Bottles,"

I read that one of Ed's other books, "Bar Room Reveries," is very

rare. I have a copy of "Bar Room Reveries," which I read often and

lend to friends. I was wondering if the book is valuable or

historically significant? If it is historically important, I'll be

much more careful with it in the future, to ensure preservation.



Thanks for your time

& Kind Regards,

Brian


0 -1 0 0
2192 Jim Blair
NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954 NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954 2/15/2005 4:34:00 PM


These Drug Addicts



Cure One Another







By Jerome Ellison





A new approach to a tragic social problem - drug addiction - has

been found by the ex-addicts of Narcotics Anonymous. Here's how they help users

out of their horrible habit - as in the case of the mining engineer, the hot

musician, the minister and the movie actor.















Tom, a young musician just out of a job on a big-name dance band,

was pouring out the story of his heroin addiction to a small gathering in a New

York City Y.M.C.A. He told how he started three years ago, "fooling around for

thrills, never dreaming to get a habit." His band went on the road. One night in

Philadelphia he ran out of his drug and became so shaky he couldn't play. It was

the first time the band management knew of his habit. He was promptly sent home.



"Music business is getting tough with junkies," Tom said.



His audience was sympathetic. It was composed of former drug addicts

who had found freedom from addiction. They met twice weekly to make this freedom

secure, and worked to help other addicts achieve it. The New York group, founded

in 1950 and called Narcotics Anonymous, is one of several which have been piling

up evidence that the methods of Alcoholics Anonymous can help release people

from other drugs than alcohol - drugs such as opium, heroin, morphine and the

barbiturates.



The groups enter a field where patients are many and cures few. The

population addicted to opiates has been placed by competent but incompatible

authorities at 60,000 and at 180,000. The Federal Bureau of Narcotics estimates

that the traffic in illegal opium derivatives grosses $275,000,000 a year. About

1000 people a month are arrested for violation of Federal, state or local laws

regulating the opiates. Addiction to the barbiturates, it is believed, involves

more people. There are some 1500 known compounds of barbituric acid, some of

them having pharmaceutical names and others street names such as yellow jacket,

red devil and goofball.



Addicts work up to doses sufficient to kill a non-addicted person or

an addict with a lesser tolerance. In New York recently, three young addicts met

and took equal portions of heroin. Two felt no unusual reactions; the third went

into convulsions and in a few hours was dead. Many barbiturate users daily

consume quantities, which would be lethal to a normal person. Others have

demonstrated an ability to use barbiturates for years, under medical

supervision, without raising their consumption to dangerous levels.



The drug addict, like the alcoholic, has long been an enigma to

those who want to help him. Real contact is most likely to be made, on a

principle demonstrated with phenomenal success by Alcoholics Anonymous, by

another addict. Does the prospect, writhing with shame, confess to pilfering

from his wife's purse to buy drugs? His sponsor once took his children's lunch

money. Did he steal the black bag of a loyal family doctor? As a ruse to

flimflam druggists, his new friend once impersonated a doctor for several

months. The N.A. member first shares his shame with the newcomer. Then he shares

his hope and finally, sometimes, his recovery.



To date, the A.A. type of group therapy has been an effective

ingredient of "cures" - the word as used here means no drugs for a year or more

and an intent of permanent abstinence. - in at least 200 cases. Some of these,

including Dan, the founder of the New York group, had been pronounced medically

hopeless. The "Narco" Group in the United States Public Health Service Hospital

at Lexington, Kentucky, has a transient membership of about eighty men and women

patients. The group mails a monthly newsletter, The Key, free to those who want

it, currently a list of 500 names. Many of these are interested but

nonaddicted friends. Most are "mail-order members" of the group-addicts who have

left the hospital and been without drugs for periods ranging from a few weeks to

several years. The H.F.D. (Habit Forming Drug) Group is a loosely affiliated

fellowship of California ex-addicts who keep "clean" - the addicts term for a

state of abstinence- by attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings with volunteer

A.A. sponsors. The Federal prison at Lorton, Virginia, has a prisoner group

which attracts thirty men to its weekly meetings. Narcotics Anonymous in New

York is the sole "free world"-outside of institution-group which conducts its

own weekly open-to-the-public meetings in the A.A. tradition.



Today's groups of former addicts mark the convergence of two

historic narratives, one having to do with alcohol, the other with opium.

References to the drug of the poppies go back to 4000 B.C. According to Homer,

Helen of Troy used it in a beverage guaranteed to abolish care. Opium was

employed to quiet noisy children as early as 1552 B.C. De Quincy and Coleridge

are among the famous men to whom it brought disaster. In its dual role it

appears today, through its derivatives, as the friend of man in surgery and his

enemy in addiction.



The alcoholic strand of the story may be taken up in the Zurich

office of the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, one day late in 1933. At that time

the eminent doctor was obliged to impart an unpleasant bit of news to one of his

patients, an American businessman who had come for help with a desperate

drinking problem. After months of effort and repeated relapses, the doctor

admitted that his treatment had been a failure.



"Is there, then," the patient asked, "no hope?" Only if a profound

religious experience were undergone, he was told. How, he wanted to know, could

such an experience be had? It could not be obtained on order, the doctor said,

but if one associated with religious-minded people for a while _______







Narcotics Anonymous - A.A.'s Young Brother







The American interested himself in Frank Buchman's Oxford Group,

found sobriety, and told an inebriate friend of his experience. The friend

sobered up and took the message to a former drinking partner, a New York

stockbroker named Bill. Though he was an agnostic who had never had much use for

religion, Bill sobered up. Late in 1935, while on a business trip to Akron,

Ohio, he was struck by the thought that he wouldn't be able to keep his sobriety

unless he passed on the message. He sought out a heavy drinking local surgeon

named Bob and told him the story to date. They sat down and formulated a program

for staying sober-a program featuring twelve Suggested Steps and called

Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill devoted full time to carrying the A.A. message, and

the news spread. The now-famous article by Jack Alexander in The Saturday

Evening Post of March 1, 1941, made it nationally known, and by 1944 there were

A.A. groups in the major cities.



In June of that year an inebriate mining engineer whom we'll call

Houston "hit bottom" with his drinking in Montgomery, Alabama, and the local

A.A.'s dried him up. Houston gobbled the A.A. program and began helping other

alcoholics. One of the drunks he worked with-a sales executive who can be called

Harry-was involved not only with alcohol but also morphine. A.A. took care of

the alcoholic factor, but left Harry's drug habit unchanged. Interested and

baffled, Houston watched his new friend struggle in his strange self-constructed

trap.



The opiate theme of the narrative now reappears. Harry's pattern had

been to get roaring drunk, take morphine to avoid a hang-over, get drunk again

and take morphine again. Thus he became "hooked"-addicted. He drove through a

red light one day and was stopped by a policeman. The officer found morphine and

turned him over to Federal jurisdiction, with the result that Harry spent

twenty-seven months at Lexington, where both voluntary and involuntary patients

are accommodated, as a prisoner. After his discharge he met Houston and, through

A.A., found relief from the booze issue. The drug problem continued to plague

him.



During this period, Houston, through one of those coincidences which

A.A.'s like to attribute to a Higher Power, was transferred by his employers to

Frankfort, Kentucky, just a few miles from Lexington. "Harry's troubles kept

jumping through my brain," Houston says. "I was convinced that the twelve

Suggested Steps would work as well for drugs as for alcohol if conscientiously

applied. One day I called on Dr. V.H. Vogel, the medical officer then in charge

at Lexington. I told him of our work with Harry and offered to assist in

starting a group in the hospital. Doctor Vogel accepted the offer and on Feb.

16, 1947, the first meeting was held. Weekly meetings have been going on ever

since."







The Phenomenon of "Physical Dependence"







Some months later, in a strangely woven web of coincidence, Harry

reappeared at "Narco" as a voluntary patient and began attending meetings. He

was discharged, relapsed, and in short time was back again. "This time," he

says, "it clicked." He has now been free from both alcohol and drugs for more

than five years. Twice he has returned to tell his story at meetings, in the

A.A. tradition of passing on the good word.



In the fall of 1948 there arrived at Lexington an addict named Dan

who had been there before. It was, in fact, his seventh trip; the doctors

assumed that he'd continue his periodic visits until he died. This same Dan

later founded the small but significant Narcotics Anonymous group in New York.

Dan's personal history is the story of an apparently incurable addict apparently

cured.



An emotionally unsettled childhood is the rule among addicts, and

Dan's childhood follows the pattern. His mother died when he was three years

old, his father when he was four. He was adopted by a spinster physician and

spent his boyhood with his foster mother, a resident doctor in a Kansas City

hospital, and with her relatives in Missouri and Illinois. When he was sixteen

he developed an ear ailment and was given opiates to relieve the pain. During

and after an operation to correct the condition he received frequent morphine

injections. Enjoying the mood of easy, floating forgetfulness they induced, he

malingered.



Living in a large hospital gave Dan opportunities to pilfer drugs,

and for six months he managed keep himself regularly supplied. An addict at the

hospital taught him how to inject himself, so for a time he was able to

recapture the mood at will. He was embarrassing his foster mother

professionally, however, and though not yet acknowledging the fact to himself,

was becoming known locally as an addict. Sources of drugs began to close up, and

one day there was no morphine to be had. He went into an uncontrollable panic

which grew worse each hour.



There followed muscular cramps, diarrhea, a freely running nose, tears gushing

from his eyes, and two sleepless, terror-filled days and nights. It was Dan's

first experience with the mysterious withdrawal sickness which is experienced

sooner or later by every addict.



In one of the strangest phenomena known to medicine, the body

adjusts to the invasion of certain drugs, altering its chemistry in a few weeks

to a basis-called "physical dependence"-on which it can no longer function

properly without the drug. How physical dependence differs from habit may be

illustrated by imagining a habitual gum chewer deprived of gum. His unease would

be due to the denial of habit. If he were denied gum and also water, on which he

is physically dependent, he'd feel an increasingly painful craving called

thirst. The drug addict's craving is called the "abstinence syndrome," or

withdrawal sickness. In extreme cases it includes everything Dan experienced,

plus hallucinations and convulsions. Withdrawal of opiates rarely causes the

death of a healthy person; sudden cessation of barbiturates has been known to.

The violent phase, which is usually over in two to three days, may under expert

care be largely avoided. Physical dependence gradually diminishes and ordinary

habit, of the gum-chewing type, asserts itself.



This is the interval of greatest vulner-ability, N.A. members say,

to the addict's inevitable good resolutions. He has formed the habit of using

his drugs when he feels low. If he breaks off medical supervision before he is

physically and medically back to par, the temptation to relapse may be

overwhelming. It is in this period, Dan says, that the addict most needs the

kind of understanding he finds in N.A. If he yields to the call of habit,

physical dependence is quickly reestablished and his body calls for ever greater

doses as the price of peace.



Dan went through the cycle dozens of times. Besides the half dozen

withdrawals at Lexington, there were several at city and state institutions, and

numerous attempts at self-withdrawal. He tried sudden and complete abstinence,

the "cold-turkey" method. He tried relieving the withdrawal pangs with alcohol,

and found it only cancelled out his ability to think, so he automatically

returned to drugs. When he attempted withdrawal with barbiturates he "just about

went goofy."



All this, however, was to come later; in his early twenties he had

no intention of giving up the use of drugs. Having been spotted as an addict in

the Kansas City area, he sought fresh fields. He found a job as a salesman and

traveled several Midwest states. The demands of his habit and his scrapes with

the law made it hard to hold a job long. Drifting from one employment to

another, he found himself, in the early 1930's in Brooklyn.



His attempts at withdrawal resulted in several extended periods of

abstinence, the longest of which was three years. When off drugs Dan was an able

sales executive and a good provider. He married a Staten Island girl. They had a

son. Dan continued to have short relapses, however. Each new one put a further

strain on the family tie. For a time, to save money for drugs, he used slugs in

the subway turnstiles going to and from work. He was spotted by a subway

detective and spent two days in jail. A month later he was caught passing a

forged morphine prescription. As a result, he was among the first prisoner

patients at the new United States Public Health Service Hospital for addicts at

Lexington, when it was opened on May 28, 1935.



After a year there, he made a supreme effort to be rid of drugs for

good. To keep away from the temptations offered by New York drug pushers he

found a job with a large Midwest dairy. He worked hard, saved his money and sent

for his family. By this time, however, it was too late; his wife refused to

come, and a divorce action was begun. "Her rebuff gave me what I thought was a

good excuse to go back on drugs," Dan reports. After that, his deterioration

accelerated. On his seventh trip to Lexington, in 1948, he was in a profound

depression.



After a month of sullen silence, he began attending the group

meetings, which were a new feature at the hospital since his last trip. "I still

wouldn't talk," he reports, "But I did some listening. I was impressed by what

Houston had to say. Harry came back one time and told us his story. For the

first time, I began to pray. I was only praying that I would die, but at least

it was a prayer," He did not die, nor did he recover. Within six months of his

discharge he was found in possession of drugs and sent back to Lexington for a

year-his eighth and, as it turned out, final trip.



"This time things were different," he says. "Everything Houston and

Harry had been saying suddenly made sense. There was a lawyer from a Southern

city there at the time, and a Midwestern surgeon. They were in the same mood I

was-disgusted with themselves and really ready to change. The three of us used

to have long talks with Houston every Saturday morning, besides the regular

meetings." All three recently celebrated the fifth anniversary of their

emancipation from the drug habit.



Dan, conscious of what seemed to him a miraculous change of

attitude, returned to New York full of enthusiasm and hope. The twelfth of the

Suggested Steps was to pass on the message to others who needed help. He

proposed to form the first outside-of-institution group and call it Narcotics

Anonymous-N.A. He contacted other Lexington alumni and suggested they start

weekly meetings.



There were certain difficulties. Addicts are not outstandingly

gregarious, and when all the excuses were in only three-a house painter named

Charlie, a barber named Henry and a waiter we'll call George-were on hand for

the first meeting. There was uncertainty about where this would be; nobody it

seemed wanted the addicts around. Besides, missionary, or "twelfth step," work

of the new group would be hampered by the law. When the A.A. member is on an

errand of mercy he can, if occasion warrants, administer appropriate "medicine"

to stave off shakes or delirium long enough to talk a little sense into the

prospect. If the N.A. member did so, he'd risk a long term in jail. Drug

peddlers were not enthusiastic about the new venture. Rumors were circulating

discrediting the group.



Out of the gloom, however, came unexpected rays of friendliness and

help. The Salvation Army made room for meetings at its 46th Street cafeteria.

Later the McBurney Y.M.C.A., on 23rd Street, offered a meeting room. Two doctors

backed their oral support by sending patients to meetings. Two other doctors

agreed to serve on an advisory board.



There were slips and backslidings. Meetings were sometimes marred by

obstinacy and temper. But three of the original four remained faithful and the

group slowly grew. Difficult matters of policy were worked out by trial and

error. Some members once thought that a satisfactory withdrawal could be made at

home. Some hard nights were endured and it was concluded that the doctors were

right-for a proper drug withdrawal institutional care is necessary. Addicts are

not admitted to meetings while using drugs. Newcomers are advised to make their

withdrawal first, then come to N.A. to learn to live successfully without drugs.



Group statisticians estimate that 5000 inquiries have been answered,

constituting a heavy drain on the group's treasury. Some 600 addicts have

attended one or more meetings, 90 have attained effective living without drugs.

One of these is a motion picture celebrity, now doing well on his own. One

relapse after the first exposure to N.A. principles seems to have been about

par, though a number have not found this necessary. "A key fact of which few

addicts are aware," Dan says, "is that once he's been addicted, a person can

never again take even one dose of any habit-forming drug, including alcohol and

the barbiturates, without running into trouble."



The weekly "open"-to the public-meetings are attended by ten to

thirty persons-addicts, their friends and families and concerned outsiders. The

room is small and, on Friday evenings when more than twenty-five turn up,

crowded.



There is an interval of chitchat and visiting, and then, about nine

o'clock, the secretary, a Brooklyn housewife, mother and department -store

cashier, opens the meeting. In this ceremony all repeat the well-known prayer:

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to

change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." The secretary

then introduces a leader-a member who presents the speakers and renders

interlocutor's comments from his own experience with a drugless life. The

speakers-traditionally two in an evening-describe their adventures with drugs

and with N.A. In two months of meetings I heard a score of these case histories.

I also charted the progress of a newcomer, the young musician named Tom, whose

first N.A. meeting coincided with my own first reportorial visit.



Within the undeviating certainties of addiction, individual

histories reveal a wide assortment of personal variations. Harold, an

optometrist, is a "medical" addict; he got his habit from the prescription pad

of a doctor who was treating him for osteomyelitis. An outspoken advocate of

psychotherapy for all, Harold absorbs a certain amount of ribbing as the groups

"psychiatric salesman." Florence, the housewife-cashier-secretary, recently

celebrated her first anniversary of freedom from morphine, which she first

received twenty-five years ago in a prescription for the relief of menstrual

cramps. Carl, an electrician, became interested in the effects of opium smoke

thirty years ago, and reached a point where he could not function without his

daily pipe. He eventually switched to heroin and his troubles multiplied.



Manny, an executive in a high-pressure advertising agency, and

Marian, a registered nurse with heavy administrative responsibilities began

using morphine to relieve fatigue. Don, Marian's husband, regards alcohol as his

main addictive drug, but had a bad brush with self-prescribed barbiturates

before he came to A.A. and then, with Marian, to N.A. Pat, another young

advertising man, nearly died of poisoning from the barbiturates to which he had

become heavily addicted. Harold and Carl have now been four years without drugs;

Manny, three; Marian, Don and Pat, one.



Perhaps a third of the membership are graduates of the teen-age

heroin fad which swept our larger cities a few years ago, and which still enjoys

as much of a vogue as dope peddlers can promote among the present teen-age

population. Rita, an attractive daughter of Spanish-American Harlem, was one of

the group's first members. Along with a number of her classmates, she began by

smoking marihuana cigarettes-a typical introduction to drugs-then took heroin

"for thrills." She used the drug four years, became desperately ill, went to

Lexington and has now been free of the habit four years. Fred, a war hero,

became a heroin addict because he wanted friends. In the teen-age gang to which

he aspired, being hooked was a badge of distinction. He sought out the pusher

who frequented the vicinity of his high school and got hooked. There followed

seven miserable and dangerous years, two of them in combat and one in a

veteran's hospital. In December of 1953 he came to N.A. and, he says, "really

found friends."



Lawrence's story is the happiest of all. He came to N.A. early in

his first addiction, just out of high school, just married, thoroughly alarmed

at discovering he was addicted, and desperately seeking a way out. N.A. friends

recommended that he get "blue-grassed," an arrangement by which a patient may

commit himself under a local statute to remain at Lexington 135 days for what

the doctors consider a really adequate treatment. He attended meetings in the

hospital and more meetings when he got home. Now happy and grateful, he thanks

N.A. His boss recently presented him with a promotion; his wife recently

presented him with a son.



Besides the Friday open meeting there is a Tuesday closed meeting at

the Y for addicts only. As a special dispensation I was permitted to attend a

closed meeting, the purpose of which is to discuss the daily application of the

twelve steps.



The step under discussion the night I was there was No.4:"Make a

searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." The point was raised as to

whether this step might degenerate into self-recrimination and do more harm than

good. Old-timers asserted that this was not the proper application. A life of

drug addiction, they said, often built up an abnormal load of guilt and fear,

which could become so oppressive as to threaten a relapse unless dealt with.

When the addict used step 4 honestly to face up to his past, guilt and fear

diminished and he could make constructive plans for his future.



The Narco meetings at Lexington have borne other fruit. There was

Charlie, the young GI from Washington, D.C., who once looted first-aid kits in

the gun tubs of a Navy transport en route to the Philippines and took his first

morphine out of sheer curiosity. After his Army discharge his curiosity led him

to heroin and several bad years; then to Lexington, where the Narco Group struck

a spark. He heard about Dan's work, went to New York to see him, and on his

return to Washington looked around to see what he could do. He discovered that

there was a concentration of addicts in the Federal penitentiary at Lorton,

Virginia. Working with Alcoholics Anonymous, which already had meetings in the

prison, he obtained permission to start a group like the one at Lexington. Now a

year old, these meetings, called the Notrol Group- Lorton backward-attract the

regular attendance of about thirty addicts. Washington has no free-world group,

but Charlie helps a lot of addicts on an individual basis, steering them to A.A.

meetings for doctrine.



Friendliness of ex-drug addicts with former devotees of alcohol

sometimes occurs, though Bill, the same who figured so prominently in A.A.'s

founding, says a fraternal attitude cannot be depended upon. The average A.A.,

he says, would merely look blank if asked about drug addiction, and rightly

reply that this specialty is outside his understanding. There are, however, a

few A.A.'s who have been addicted both to alcohol and drugs, and these sometimes

function as "bridge members."



"If the addict substitutes the word 'drugs' whenever he hears

'alcohol' in the A.A. program, he'll be helped," Houston says. Many ex-addicts,

in the larger population centers where meetings run to attendances of hundreds,

attend A.A. meetings. The H.F.D. (Habit-Forming Drug) Group, which is activated

by an energetic ex-addict and ex-alcoholic of the Los Angeles area named Betty,

has dozens of members, but no meeting of its own. Individual ex-addicts who are

"making it" the A.A. way include a minister in a South-eastern state, a

politician in the deep South, a motion-picture mogul in California and an

eminent surgeon of an Eastern city. The role call of ex-addict groups is small.

There is the parent Narco Group, Addicts Anonymous, P.O. Box 2000, Lexington,

KY; Narcotics Anonymous, P.O. Box 3, Village Station, New York 14, N.Y.; Notrol

Group, c/o U.S. Penitentiary, Lorton, Va.; H.D.F. Group, c/o Secretary, Bay Area

Rehabilitation Center, 1458 26th St., Santa Monica, Calif.



A frequent and relevant question asked by the casually interested

is, "But I thought habit-forming drugs were illegal-where do they get the

stuff?" The answer involves an interesting bit of history explaining how opiates

come to be illegal. In the early 1800's doctors used them freely to treat the

innumerable ills then lumped under the heading, "nervousness." Hypodermic

injection of morphine was introduced in 1856. By 1880, opium and morphine

preparations were common drugstore items. An 1882 survey estimated that 1 per

cent of the population was addicted, and the public became alarmed. A wave of

legislation swept the country, beginning in 1885 with an Ohio statute and

culminating in the Federal Harrison Narcotic Law of 1914. Immediately after the

passage of this prohibitory law, prices of opium, morphine and heroin soared. A

fantastically profitable black market developed. Today, $3000 worth of heroin

purchased abroad brings $300,000 when finally cut, packaged and sold in America.



Among the judges, social workers and doctors with whom I talked

there is a growing feeling that the Harrison Act needs to be re-examined. Dr.

Hubert S. Howe, a former Columbia professor of neurology and authority on

narcotics, says the statute, like the Volstead Act, "removed the traffic in

narcotic drugs from lawful hands and gave it to criminals." In an address before

the New York State Medical Society he asserted that the financial props could be

knocked from the illegal industry by minor revisions of present laws and

rulings, with no risk of addiction becoming more widespread. Doctor Howe

proposes a system of regulation similar to that of the United Kingdom, which

reports only 364 addicts.



Meanwhile the lot of those who become involved with what our British

cousins rightly call "dangerous drugs" is grim. It is just slightly less grim

than it might have been five years ago. Since then a few addicts have found a

way back from the nightmare alleys of addiction to a normal life which may seem

humdrum enough at times, but which when lost, then regained, is found to be a

glory.











Source: The Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2193 Mel Barger
Re: NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954 NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954 2/15/2005 2:18:00 PM


Hi Folks,

It was a pleasant surprise to receive the Saturday Evening Post article on

Narcotics Anonymous authored by Jerome Ellison, whom we called Jerry. Jerry

wrote a very nice spiritual biography called "Report to the Creator" which

detailed his own drinking life and recovery. I visited him once in his home

in Guilford, Connecticut. He was also the author of "Twelve Steps and the

Older Member," a Grapevine series which he later published privately as a

book.

He passed away many years ago, but did stay sober all his life.

Mel Barger

~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:34 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954





>

> These Drug Addicts

>

> Cure One Another

>

>

>

> By Jerome Ellison

>

>

> A new approach to a tragic social problem - drug addiction -

> has been found by the ex-addicts of Narcotics Anonymous. Here's how they

> help users out of their horrible habit - as in the case of the mining

> engineer, the hot musician, the minister and the movie actor.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Tom, a young musician just out of a job on a big-name dance

> band, was pouring out the story of his heroin addiction to a small

> gathering in a New York City Y.M.C.A. He told how he started three years

> ago, "fooling around for thrills, never dreaming to get a habit." His band

> went on the road. One night in Philadelphia he ran out of his drug and

> became so shaky he couldn't play. It was the first time the band

> management knew of his habit. He was promptly sent home.

>

> "Music business is getting tough with junkies," Tom said.

>

> His audience was sympathetic. It was composed of former drug

> addicts who had found freedom from addiction. They met twice weekly to

> make this freedom secure, and worked to help other addicts achieve it. The

> New York group, founded in 1950 and called Narcotics Anonymous, is one of

> several which have been piling up evidence that the methods of Alcoholics

> Anonymous can help release people from other drugs than alcohol - drugs

> such as opium, heroin, morphine and the barbiturates.

>

> The groups enter a field where patients are many and cures few.

> The population addicted to opiates has been placed by competent but

> incompatible authorities at 60,000 and at 180,000. The Federal Bureau of

> Narcotics estimates that the traffic in illegal opium derivatives grosses

> $275,000,000 a year. About 1000 people a month are arrested for violation

> of Federal, state or local laws regulating the opiates. Addiction to the

> barbiturates, it is believed, involves more people. There are some 1500

> known compounds of barbituric acid, some of them having pharmaceutical

> names and others street names such as yellow jacket, red devil and

> goofball.

>

> Addicts work up to doses sufficient to kill a non-addicted

> person or an addict with a lesser tolerance. In New York recently, three

> young addicts met and took equal portions of heroin. Two felt no unusual

> reactions; the third went into convulsions and in a few hours was dead.

> Many barbiturate users daily consume quantities, which would be lethal to

> a normal person. Others have demonstrated an ability to use barbiturates

> for years, under medical supervision, without raising their consumption to

> dangerous levels.

>

> The drug addict, like the alcoholic, has long been an enigma to

> those who want to help him. Real contact is most likely to be made, on a

> principle demonstrated with phenomenal success by Alcoholics Anonymous, by

> another addict. Does the prospect, writhing with shame, confess to

> pilfering from his wife's purse to buy drugs? His sponsor once took his

> children's lunch money. Did he steal the black bag of a loyal family

> doctor? As a ruse to flimflam druggists, his new friend once impersonated

> a doctor for several months. The N.A. member first shares his shame with

> the newcomer. Then he shares his hope and finally, sometimes, his

> recovery.

>

> To date, the A.A. type of group therapy has been an effective

> ingredient of "cures" - the word as used here means no drugs for a year or

> more and an intent of permanent abstinence. - in at least 200 cases. Some

> of these, including Dan, the founder of the New York group, had been

> pronounced medically hopeless. The "Narco" Group in the United States

> Public Health Service Hospital at Lexington, Kentucky, has a transient

> membership of about eighty men and women patients. The group mails a

> monthly newsletter, The Key, free to those who want it, currently a list

> of 500 names. Many of these are interested but nonaddicted

> friends. Most are "mail-order members" of the group-addicts who have left

> the hospital and been without drugs for periods ranging from a few weeks

> to several years. The H.F.D. (Habit Forming Drug) Group is a loosely

> affiliated fellowship of California ex-addicts who keep "clean" - the

> addicts term for a state of abstinence- by attending Alcoholics Anonymous

> meetings with volunteer A.A. sponsors. The Federal prison at Lorton,

> Virginia, has a prisoner group which attracts thirty men to its weekly

> meetings. Narcotics Anonymous in New York is the sole "free world"-outside

> of institution-group which conducts its own weekly open-to-the-public

> meetings in the A.A. tradition.

>

> Today's groups of former addicts mark the convergence of two

> historic narratives, one having to do with alcohol, the other with opium.

> References to the drug of the poppies go back to 4000 B.C. According to

> Homer, Helen of Troy used it in a beverage guaranteed to abolish care.

> Opium was employed to quiet noisy children as early as 1552 B.C. De Quincy

> and Coleridge are among the famous men to whom it brought disaster. In its

> dual role it appears today, through its derivatives, as the friend of man

> in surgery and his enemy in addiction.

>

> The alcoholic strand of the story may be taken up in the Zurich

> office of the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, one day late in 1933. At that

> time the eminent doctor was obliged to impart an unpleasant bit of news to

> one of his patients, an American businessman who had come for help with a

> desperate drinking problem. After months of effort and repeated relapses,

> the doctor admitted that his treatment had been a failure.

>

> "Is there, then," the patient asked, "no hope?" Only if a

> profound religious experience were undergone, he was told. How, he wanted

> to know, could such an experience be had? It could not be obtained on

> order, the doctor said, but if one associated with religious-minded people

> for a while _______

>

>

>

> Narcotics Anonymous - A.A.'s Young Brother

>

>

>

> The American interested himself in Frank Buchman's Oxford

> Group, found sobriety, and told an inebriate friend of his experience. The

> friend sobered up and took the message to a former drinking partner, a New

> York stockbroker named Bill. Though he was an agnostic who had never had

> much use for religion, Bill sobered up. Late in 1935, while on a business

> trip to Akron, Ohio, he was struck by the thought that he wouldn't be able

> to keep his sobriety unless he passed on the message. He sought out a

> heavy drinking local surgeon named Bob and told him the story to date.

> They sat down and formulated a program for staying sober-a program

> featuring twelve Suggested Steps and called Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill

> devoted full time to carrying the A.A. message, and the news spread. The

> now-famous article by Jack Alexander in The Saturday Evening Post of March

> 1, 1941, made it nationally known, and by 1944 there were A.A. groups in

> the major cities.

>

> In June of that year an inebriate mining engineer whom we'll

> call Houston "hit bottom" with his drinking in Montgomery, Alabama, and

> the local A.A.'s dried him up. Houston gobbled the A.A. program and began

> helping other alcoholics. One of the drunks he worked with-a sales

> executive who can be called Harry-was involved not only with alcohol but

> also morphine. A.A. took care of the alcoholic factor, but left Harry's

> drug habit unchanged. Interested and baffled, Houston watched his new

> friend struggle in his strange self-constructed trap.

>

> The opiate theme of the narrative now reappears. Harry's

> pattern had been to get roaring drunk, take morphine to avoid a hang-over,

> get drunk again and take morphine again. Thus he became "hooked"-addicted.

> He drove through a red light one day and was stopped by a policeman. The

> officer found morphine and turned him over to Federal jurisdiction, with

> the result that Harry spent twenty-seven months at Lexington, where both

> voluntary and involuntary patients are accommodated, as a prisoner. After

> his discharge he met Houston and, through A.A., found relief from the

> booze issue. The drug problem continued to plague him.

>

> During this period, Houston, through one of those coincidences

> which A.A.'s like to attribute to a Higher Power, was transferred by his

> employers to Frankfort, Kentucky, just a few miles from Lexington.

> "Harry's troubles kept jumping through my brain," Houston says. "I was

> convinced that the twelve Suggested Steps would work as well for drugs as

> for alcohol if conscientiously applied. One day I called on Dr. V.H.

> Vogel, the medical officer then in charge at Lexington. I told him of our

> work with Harry and offered to assist in starting a group in the hospital.

> Doctor Vogel accepted the offer and on Feb. 16, 1947, the first meeting

> was held. Weekly meetings have been going on ever since."

>

>

>

> The Phenomenon of "Physical Dependence"

>

>

>

> Some months later, in a strangely woven web of coincidence,

> Harry reappeared at "Narco" as a voluntary patient and began attending

> meetings. He was discharged, relapsed, and in short time was back again.

> "This time," he says, "it clicked." He has now been free from both alcohol

> and drugs for more than five years. Twice he has returned to tell his

> story at meetings, in the A.A. tradition of passing on the good word.

>

> In the fall of 1948 there arrived at Lexington an addict named

> Dan who had been there before. It was, in fact, his seventh trip; the

> doctors assumed that he'd continue his periodic visits until he died. This

> same Dan later founded the small but significant Narcotics Anonymous group

> in New York. Dan's personal history is the story of an apparently

> incurable addict apparently cured.

>

> An emotionally unsettled childhood is the rule among addicts,

> and Dan's childhood follows the pattern. His mother died when he was three

> years old, his father when he was four. He was adopted by a spinster

> physician and spent his boyhood with his foster mother, a resident doctor

> in a Kansas City hospital, and with her relatives in Missouri and

> Illinois. When he was sixteen he developed an ear ailment and was given

> opiates to relieve the pain. During and after an operation to correct the

> condition he received frequent morphine injections. Enjoying the mood of

> easy, floating forgetfulness they induced, he malingered.

>

> Living in a large hospital gave Dan opportunities to pilfer

> drugs, and for six months he managed keep himself regularly supplied. An

> addict at the hospital taught him how to inject himself, so for a time he

> was able to recapture the mood at will. He was embarrassing his foster

> mother professionally, however, and though not yet acknowledging the fact

> to himself, was becoming known locally as an addict. Sources of drugs

> began to close up, and one day there was no morphine to be had. He went

> into an uncontrollable panic which grew worse each hour.

>

> There followed muscular cramps, diarrhea, a freely running nose, tears

> gushing from his eyes, and two sleepless, terror-filled days and nights.

> It was Dan's first experience with the mysterious withdrawal sickness

> which is experienced sooner or later by every addict.

>

> In one of the strangest phenomena known to medicine, the body

> adjusts to the invasion of certain drugs, altering its chemistry in a few

> weeks to a basis-called "physical dependence"-on which it can no longer

> function properly without the drug. How physical dependence differs from

> habit may be illustrated by imagining a habitual gum chewer deprived of

> gum. His unease would be due to the denial of habit. If he were denied gum

> and also water, on which he is physically dependent, he'd feel an

> increasingly painful craving called thirst. The drug addict's craving is

> called the "abstinence syndrome," or withdrawal sickness. In extreme cases

> it includes everything Dan experienced, plus hallucinations and

> convulsions. Withdrawal of opiates rarely causes the death of a healthy

> person; sudden cessation of barbiturates has been known to. The violent

> phase, which is usually over in two to three days, may under expert care

> be largely avoided. Physical dependence gradually diminishes and ordinary

> habit, of the gum-chewing type, asserts itself.

>

> This is the interval of greatest vulner-ability, N.A. members

> say, to the addict's inevitable good resolutions. He has formed the habit

> of using his drugs when he feels low. If he breaks off medical supervision

> before he is physically and medically back to par, the temptation to

> relapse may be overwhelming. It is in this period, Dan says, that the

> addict most needs the kind of understanding he finds in N.A. If he yields

> to the call of habit, physical dependence is quickly reestablished and his

> body calls for ever greater doses as the price of peace.

>

> Dan went through the cycle dozens of times. Besides the half

> dozen withdrawals at Lexington, there were several at city and state

> institutions, and numerous attempts at self-withdrawal. He tried sudden

> and complete abstinence, the "cold-turkey" method. He tried relieving the

> withdrawal pangs with alcohol, and found it only cancelled out his ability

> to think, so he automatically returned to drugs. When he attempted

> withdrawal with barbiturates he "just about went goofy."

>

> All this, however, was to come later; in his early twenties he

> had no intention of giving up the use of drugs. Having been spotted as an

> addict in the Kansas City area, he sought fresh fields. He found a job as

> a salesman and traveled several Midwest states. The demands of his habit

> and his scrapes with the law made it hard to hold a job long. Drifting

> from one employment to another, he found himself, in the early 1930's in

> Brooklyn.

>

> His attempts at withdrawal resulted in several extended periods

> of abstinence, the longest of which was three years. When off drugs Dan

> was an able sales executive and a good provider. He married a Staten

> Island girl. They had a son. Dan continued to have short relapses,

> however. Each new one put a further strain on the family tie. For a time,

> to save money for drugs, he used slugs in the subway turnstiles going to

> and from work. He was spotted by a subway detective and spent two days in

> jail. A month later he was caught passing a forged morphine prescription.

> As a result, he was among the first prisoner patients at the new United

> States Public Health Service Hospital for addicts at Lexington, when it

> was opened on May 28, 1935.

>

> After a year there, he made a supreme effort to be rid of drugs

> for good. To keep away from the temptations offered by New York drug

> pushers he found a job with a large Midwest dairy. He worked hard, saved

> his money and sent for his family. By this time, however, it was too late;

> his wife refused to come, and a divorce action was begun. "Her rebuff gave

> me what I thought was a good excuse to go back on drugs," Dan reports.

> After that, his deterioration accelerated. On his seventh trip to

> Lexington, in 1948, he was in a profound depression.

>

> After a month of sullen silence, he began attending the group

> meetings, which were a new feature at the hospital since his last trip. "I

> still wouldn't talk," he reports, "But I did some listening. I was

> impressed by what Houston had to say. Harry came back one time and told us

> his story. For the first time, I began to pray. I was only praying that I

> would die, but at least it was a prayer," He did not die, nor did he

> recover. Within six months of his discharge he was found in possession of

> drugs and sent back to Lexington for a year-his eighth and, as it turned

> out, final trip.

>

> "This time things were different," he says. "Everything Houston

> and Harry had been saying suddenly made sense. There was a lawyer from a

> Southern city there at the time, and a Midwestern surgeon. They were in

> the same mood I was-disgusted with themselves and really ready to change.

> The three of us used to have long talks with Houston every Saturday

> morning, besides the regular meetings." All three recently celebrated the

> fifth anniversary of their emancipation from the drug habit.

>

> Dan, conscious of what seemed to him a miraculous change of

> attitude, returned to New York full of enthusiasm and hope. The twelfth of

> the Suggested Steps was to pass on the message to others who needed help.

> He proposed to form the first outside-of-institution group and call it

> Narcotics Anonymous-N.A. He contacted other Lexington alumni and suggested

> they start weekly meetings.

>

> There were certain difficulties. Addicts are not outstandingly

> gregarious, and when all the excuses were in only three-a house painter

> named Charlie, a barber named Henry and a waiter we'll call George-were on

> hand for the first meeting. There was uncertainty about where this would

> be; nobody it seemed wanted the addicts around. Besides, missionary, or

> "twelfth step," work of the new group would be hampered by the law. When

> the A.A. member is on an errand of mercy he can, if occasion warrants,

> administer appropriate "medicine" to stave off shakes or delirium long

> enough to talk a little sense into the prospect. If the N.A. member did

> so, he'd risk a long term in jail. Drug peddlers were not enthusiastic

> about the new venture. Rumors were circulating discrediting the group.

>

> Out of the gloom, however, came unexpected rays of friendliness

> and help. The Salvation Army made room for meetings at its 46th Street

> cafeteria. Later the McBurney Y.M.C.A., on 23rd Street, offered a meeting

> room. Two doctors backed their oral support by sending patients to

> meetings. Two other doctors agreed to serve on an advisory board.

>

> There were slips and backslidings. Meetings were sometimes

> marred by obstinacy and temper. But three of the original four remained

> faithful and the group slowly grew. Difficult matters of policy were

> worked out by trial and error. Some members once thought that a

> satisfactory withdrawal could be made at home. Some hard nights were

> endured and it was concluded that the doctors were right-for a proper drug

> withdrawal institutional care is necessary. Addicts are not admitted to

> meetings while using drugs. Newcomers are advised to make their withdrawal

> first, then come to N.A. to learn to live successfully without drugs.

>

> Group statisticians estimate that 5000 inquiries have been

> answered, constituting a heavy drain on the group's treasury. Some 600

> addicts have attended one or more meetings, 90 have attained effective

> living without drugs. One of these is a motion picture celebrity, now

> doing well on his own. One relapse after the first exposure to N.A.

> principles seems to have been about par, though a number have not found

> this necessary. "A key fact of which few addicts are aware," Dan says, "is

> that once he's been addicted, a person can never again take even one dose

> of any habit-forming drug, including alcohol and the barbiturates, without

> running into trouble."

>

> The weekly "open"-to the public-meetings are attended by ten to

> thirty persons-addicts, their friends and families and concerned

> outsiders. The room is small and, on Friday evenings when more than

> twenty-five turn up, crowded.

>

> There is an interval of chitchat and visiting, and then, about

> nine o'clock, the secretary, a Brooklyn housewife, mother and

> department -store cashier, opens the meeting. In this ceremony all repeat

> the well-known prayer: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I

> cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to

> know the difference." The secretary then introduces a leader-a member who

> presents the speakers and renders interlocutor's comments from his own

> experience with a drugless life. The speakers-traditionally two in an

> evening-describe their adventures with drugs and with N.A. In two months

> of meetings I heard a score of these case histories. I also charted the

> progress of a newcomer, the young musician named Tom, whose first N.A.

> meeting coincided with my own first reportorial visit.

>

> Within the undeviating certainties of addiction, individual

> histories reveal a wide assortment of personal variations. Harold, an

> optometrist, is a "medical" addict; he got his habit from the prescription

> pad of a doctor who was treating him for osteomyelitis. An outspoken

> advocate of psychotherapy for all, Harold absorbs a certain amount of

> ribbing as the groups "psychiatric salesman." Florence, the

> housewife-cashier-secretary, recently celebrated her first anniversary of

> freedom from morphine, which she first received twenty-five years ago in a

> prescription for the relief of menstrual cramps. Carl, an electrician,

> became interested in the effects of opium smoke thirty years ago, and

> reached a point where he could not function without his daily pipe. He

> eventually switched to heroin and his troubles multiplied.

>

> Manny, an executive in a high-pressure advertising agency, and

> Marian, a registered nurse with heavy administrative responsibilities

> began using morphine to relieve fatigue. Don, Marian's husband, regards

> alcohol as his main addictive drug, but had a bad brush with

> self-prescribed barbiturates before he came to A.A. and then, with Marian,

> to N.A. Pat, another young advertising man, nearly died of poisoning from

> the barbiturates to which he had become heavily addicted. Harold and Carl

> have now been four years without drugs; Manny, three; Marian, Don and Pat,

> one.

>

> Perhaps a third of the membership are graduates of the teen-age

> heroin fad which swept our larger cities a few years ago, and which still

> enjoys as much of a vogue as dope peddlers can promote among the present

> teen-age population. Rita, an attractive daughter of Spanish-American

> Harlem, was one of the group's first members. Along with a number of her

> classmates, she began by smoking marihuana cigarettes-a typical

> introduction to drugs-then took heroin "for thrills." She used the drug

> four years, became desperately ill, went to Lexington and has now been

> free of the habit four years. Fred, a war hero, became a heroin addict

> because he wanted friends. In the teen-age gang to which he aspired, being

> hooked was a badge of distinction. He sought out the pusher who frequented

> the vicinity of his high school and got hooked. There followed seven

> miserable and dangerous years, two of them in combat and one in a

> veteran's hospital. In December of 1953 he came to N.A. and, he says,

> "really found friends."

>

> Lawrence's story is the happiest of all. He came to N.A. early

> in his first addiction, just out of high school, just married, thoroughly

> alarmed at discovering he was addicted, and desperately seeking a way out.

> N.A. friends recommended that he get "blue-grassed," an arrangement by

> which a patient may commit himself under a local statute to remain at

> Lexington 135 days for what the doctors consider a really adequate

> treatment. He attended meetings in the hospital and more meetings when he

> got home. Now happy and grateful, he thanks N.A. His boss recently

> presented him with a promotion; his wife recently presented him with a

> son.

>

> Besides the Friday open meeting there is a Tuesday closed

> meeting at the Y for addicts only. As a special dispensation I was

> permitted to attend a closed meeting, the purpose of which is to discuss

> the daily application of the twelve steps.

>

> The step under discussion the night I was there was No.4:"Make

> a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." The point was

> raised as to whether this step might degenerate into self-recrimination

> and do more harm than good. Old-timers asserted that this was not the

> proper application. A life of drug addiction, they said, often built up an

> abnormal load of guilt and fear, which could become so oppressive as to

> threaten a relapse unless dealt with. When the addict used step 4 honestly

> to face up to his past, guilt and fear diminished and he could make

> constructive plans for his future.

>

> The Narco meetings at Lexington have borne other fruit. There

> was Charlie, the young GI from Washington, D.C., who once looted first-aid

> kits in the gun tubs of a Navy transport en route to the Philippines and

> took his first morphine out of sheer curiosity. After his Army discharge

> his curiosity led him to heroin and several bad years; then to Lexington,

> where the Narco Group struck a spark. He heard about Dan's work, went to

> New York to see him, and on his return to Washington looked around to see

> what he could do. He discovered that there was a concentration of addicts

> in the Federal penitentiary at Lorton, Virginia. Working with Alcoholics

> Anonymous, which already had meetings in the prison, he obtained

> permission to start a group like the one at Lexington. Now a year old,

> these meetings, called the Notrol Group- Lorton backward-attract the

> regular attendance of about thirty addicts. Washington has no free-world

> group, but Charlie helps a lot of addicts on an individual basis, steering

> them to A.A. meetings for doctrine.

>

> Friendliness of ex-drug addicts with former devotees of alcohol

> sometimes occurs, though Bill, the same who figured so prominently in

> A.A.'s founding, says a fraternal attitude cannot be depended upon. The

> average A.A., he says, would merely look blank if asked about drug

> addiction, and rightly reply that this specialty is outside his

> understanding. There are, however, a few A.A.'s who have been addicted

> both to alcohol and drugs, and these sometimes function as "bridge

> members."

>

> "If the addict substitutes the word 'drugs' whenever he hears

> 'alcohol' in the A.A. program, he'll be helped," Houston says. Many

> ex-addicts, in the larger population centers where meetings run to

> attendances of hundreds, attend A.A. meetings. The H.F.D. (Habit-Forming

> Drug) Group, which is activated by an energetic ex-addict and ex-alcoholic

> of the Los Angeles area named Betty, has dozens of members, but no meeting

> of its own. Individual ex-addicts who are "making it" the A.A. way include

> a minister in a South-eastern state, a politician in the deep South, a

> motion-picture mogul in California and an eminent surgeon of an Eastern

> city. The role call of ex-addict groups is small. There is the parent

> Narco Group, Addicts Anonymous, P.O. Box 2000, Lexington, KY; Narcotics

> Anonymous, P.O. Box 3, Village Station, New York 14, N.Y.; Notrol Group,

> c/o U.S. Penitentiary, Lorton, Va.; H.D.F. Group, c/o Secretary, Bay Area

> Rehabilitation Center, 1458 26th St., Santa Monica, Calif.

>

> A frequent and relevant question asked by the casually

> interested is, "But I thought habit-forming drugs were illegal-where do

> they get the stuff?" The answer involves an interesting bit of history

> explaining how opiates come to be illegal. In the early 1800's doctors

> used them freely to treat the innumerable ills then lumped under the

> heading, "nervousness." Hypodermic injection of morphine was introduced in

> 1856. By 1880, opium and morphine preparations were common drugstore

> items. An 1882 survey estimated that 1 per cent of the population was

> addicted, and the public became alarmed. A wave of legislation swept the

> country, beginning in 1885 with an Ohio statute and culminating in the

> Federal Harrison Narcotic Law of 1914. Immediately after the passage of

> this prohibitory law, prices of opium, morphine and heroin soared. A

> fantastically profitable black market developed. Today, $3000 worth of

> heroin purchased abroad brings $300,000 when finally cut, packaged and

> sold in America.

>

> Among the judges, social workers and doctors with whom I talked

> there is a growing feeling that the Harrison Act needs to be re-examined.

> Dr. Hubert S. Howe, a former Columbia professor of neurology and authority

> on narcotics, says the statute, like the Volstead Act, "removed the

> traffic in narcotic drugs from lawful hands and gave it to criminals." In

> an address before the New York State Medical Society he asserted that the

> financial props could be knocked from the illegal industry by minor

> revisions of present laws and rulings, with no risk of addiction becoming

> more widespread. Doctor Howe proposes a system of regulation similar to

> that of the United Kingdom, which reports only 364 addicts.

>

> Meanwhile the lot of those who become involved with what our

> British cousins rightly call "dangerous drugs" is grim. It is just

> slightly less grim than it might have been five years ago. Since then a

> few addicts have found a way back from the nightmare alleys of addiction

> to a normal life which may seem humdrum enough at times, but which when

> lost, then regained, is found to be a glory.

>

>

>

>

>

> Source: The Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2194 Bill Lash
RE: NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS 2/15/2005 9:22:00 AM


Jimmy Kinnon from California started the current version of NA. There are

two great websites for

NA History at http://www.mwbr.net/narchive &

http://www.na-history.org/speaker_audio.html





Just Love,



Barefoot Bill











-----Original Message-----

From: michael oates [mailto:moates57@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:54 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS









DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR

HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2195 marathonmanric
NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS 2/15/2005 12:58:00 PM


I don't have it in front of me now, but the book which relates this

information is "Slaying the Dragon" by Bill White



Ric from Miami, Area 15, dist 10



Modertor's note: see pgs 239-241 in the cited reference


0 -1 0 0
2196 rwj426
Bill W''s funeral Bill W''s funeral 2/16/2005 10:47:00 AM


THE NEW YORK TIMES MONDAY FEBRUARY 15, 1971

500 Meet at St. John's to Mourn Loss of Bill W.

By Paul L. Montgomery



"He was my inspiration, and not mine alone," said Marty M.; one of

the first women members of Alcoholics Anonymous. "He was one of the

most gifted human beings who ever lived on this earth. She spoke at a

memorial service yesterday afternoon at the Cathedral Church of St.

John the Divine for William Griffith Wilson, the co-founder of

Alcoholics Anonymous, who died Jan.24.



In the tradition of the group whose inspiration he was, Mr. Wilson

was known during his life as Bill W. His full name, like that of the

other co-founder, Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith, was disclosed only after

death. Dr. Smith died in 1950.



About 5000 members and others; including Mr. Wilson's wife, Lois,

gathered in the crossing of the cathedral for the service, one of

many held throughout the world yesterday to honor the founder. There

was fond laughter at remembrance of his first direct and sometimes

irascible ways, reverent silence when his virtues were described, and

a few tears.



"When we saw him, we knew we were in the presence of greatness," said

Bob H., general manager of the group's World Service Office. "Bill

really needs no panegyrics from us, no monuments. We just have to

think of the half million recovered alcoholics," Dr. John L. Norris,

chairman of the group's board of trustees, recalled that Mr. Wilson,

after doing much to develop the group therapy methods, decreased his

role in the organization to promote group responsibility.



"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,

what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that

all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group

consciousness." Dr. Norris, a retired physician, was not an

alcoholic, so he acts, as he says "the face man" for the group and

allows his name to be used. "I drink once in a while," the doctor

said in an interview. "It doesn't do much for me though."



The service was conducted by the Rev. Yvelin Gardner of St. George's

Episcopal Church, Hempstead, L.I.; Rabbi David Seligson of the

Central Synagogue, 55th Street and Lexington Avenue, and Father Joe

A., a Catholic priest, read prayers.


0 -1 0 0
2197 Nick Hernandez
Re: court slips??? Any Info?? court slips??? Any Info?? 2/16/2005 12:13:00 PM


I've heard that slip signing started in Lincoln Nebraska around 1959

when a lawyer in AA was nominated to the bench and started the

practice. His rational was that some familiarity with AA wouldn't

hurt and might do them some good.



Nick



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "richard johnson"

<hotshots@e...> wrote:

> I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30

days in jail

> or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704

>

>

> >

> >

> > There is 1 message in this issue.

> >

> > Topics in this digest:

> >

> > 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander

> > From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@h...>

> >

> >

> >

_____________________________________________________________________

___

> >

_____________________________________________________________________

___

> >

> > Message: 1

> > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000

> > From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@h...>

> > Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander

> >

> >

> > The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who

> > died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8

> > 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the

GRAPEVINE

> > notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus

> > born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous

> > Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

_____________________________________________________________________

___

> >

_____________________________________________________________________

___

> >

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------

-------

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > -----------------------------------------------------------------

-------

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >


0 -1 0 0
2198 Arkie Koehl
Re: Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill W''s funeral Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill W''s funeral 2/16/2005 2:05:00 PM


Thanks for the NY Times obit.



I was amused to read:



"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,

what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that

all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group

consciousness."



In my decades in AA it has always seemed a struggle for people to write

the words "group conscience" as it appears in our Tradition. It is

usually "group conscious" or some variation on that. "Group

consciousness" is a first for me. At least it's a noun and not an

adjective. I wonder if Norris actually said it, or if it was some Times

reporter scribbling as fast as he could :-)



Arkie Koehl

Honolulu


0 -1 0 0
2199 unclebearboy@yahoo.com
Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book 2/17/2005 5:03:00 AM


I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.

But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I

wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective

local areas?



Do you know who any of them are?





~ bILL


0 -1 0 0
2200 sbanker914@aol.com
Re: Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster 2/15/2005 11:35:00 AM


In a message dated 2/15/2005 1:29:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

groovycharacterdefects@yahoo.com writes:



I was wondering if the book is valuable or

historically significant?



A Google search reveals that a signed copy is selling for $75.



Susan Banker





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2201 Bob McK
RE: Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill W''s funeral Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill W''s funeral 2/17/2005 9:08:00 AM


Our Regional Historian, Rick S., just sent out Dr. Norris's full talk and

yes he said "group conscience" and not words that sound like it. Don't take

this rendition as gospel! Go back to more original sources since I had to

fix internet-altered punctuation and one typo. But this is the gist of his

talk.



Bob



DR. NORRIS' TALK

MEMORIAL SERVICES for BILL

NEW YORK, N. Y. FEB 14TH, 1971





Our beloved Bill is dead. Evan as I stand before you and say the

words, I cannot really believe that it is true. In my heart I choose to

believe that Bill is here with us at this very moment. And I somehow can

almost hear him saying in that half-amused, half embarrassed way of his, "Oh

come on now Jack, do you really think all this fuss is necessary?"



Two weeks ago, at a meeting of your Board of Trustees, shortly after

Bill's passing, there was a rather lively discussion about a matter

involving the whole fellowship. When it had reached a certain level of

intensity, I found myself waiting to hear Bill speak up, as he so often did

and say those few words that would put everything in perspective. But he

didn't speak. And it was then that I realized way down deep that we would

never hear his voice again...that we could no longer count on the constant

presence of his wisdom and strength. We could never again say as we had said

so many times before, "Bill, what do you think?" And I at least, have not

yet come to accept this completely.



Bill was no saint. He was an alcoholic and a man of stubborn will

and purpose. How else could he have lived through the years of frustration,

failure, and discouragement while the steps, the traditions, and the

conference were being hammered out on the anvil of hard experience with the

first few groups? That he had the self-honesty, the clarity of vision to see

the vital necessity for the Third Step, and turning one's life and will over

to a Higher Power is just one part of our great good fortune that Bill

lived. I have seen Bill's pride and I have seen his humility. And I have

been present when people from far countries have met him for the first time

and started to cry. And all Bill - that shy Vermonter - could do was stand

there and look like he wanted to run from the room. No, Bill was no saint,

although many of us wanted to make him into one. Knowing this, he was

insistent that legends about him be kept to a minimum - that accurate

records be kept so that future generations would know him as a man. He was a

very human person -- to me an exceptionally human person.



Bill's constant concern during almost all of the years that I knew him was

that Alcoholics Anonymous should always be available for the suffering

alcoholic--that the mistakes that led to the fading of previous movements to

help alcoholics should be avoided. To me one measure of his greatness is the

clarity of his vision of the future in his determination to let go of us

long before we were willing to let go of him.



Bill was a good sponsor, - the wise old timer determined to relinquish the

role of founder because he knew that A.A. must, as he would say, come of age

and take complete responsibility for itself. He had an abiding faith that

our Fellowship not only could, but should run without him. Repeatedly,

during the last few years, he has said in General Service Conference

sessions "We have nothing to fear." Bill believed that the wisdom of A.A.

came out of church basements and not from the pulpit; that it was directed

from the groups to the Trustees rather than the other way around. He

sometimes felt, though, when the Conference disagreed with him as it

sometimes did, that its conscience needed to be better informed, but it was

this way that we really shared experience and developed strength and

confidence that the answers would work out.



Bill knew that it was not one voice that should be heard, but many thousands

of voices. And it was his gift that he was able to listen to them all, then,

out of the noise and confusion discern the group conscience. Then he would

put it all together, the tension of argument would fade, and everyone would

realize that his answer was right. What Bill's death means to me now is,

that all of us--all of us: you, the delegates, the Trustees--will have to

listen much more carefully than we once did in order to make out the voice

of the group conscience.



And I know that this is possible. Bill has trained us for it beginning in

St. Louis in 1955. For this was Bill's vision -- to create a channel of

communication within the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous that would make

it possible for everyone to be hear: from the individual through the group,

to the delegates and to the Trustees, so that A.A. will always be here to

extend a hand to the drunk who is at this very moment crying out in the

darkness of his night as he reaches for help.



In closing, I want to say that it has been an honor for me to have had this

opportunity to participate with you in giving thanks to God that Bill lived

and was given the wisdom and strength and courage to make the world a better

place for all of us. There are many more things I could say, but what can

one say finally of a man's goodness and greatness? How many ways can you

take his measure? I cannot do it or say it for any of you -- only for

myself. He was the greatest and wisest man I ever knew. Above everything, he

was a man. And I believe that he left his goodness and greatness and wisdom

with us, for any of us to take in what measure we can. May God grant us the

wisdom and strength to keep Alcoholics Anonymous alive, vital, attractive,

unencumbered by the egocentricities that can so easily spoil it.





-----Original Message-----

From: Arkie Koehl [mailto:arkie@arkoehl.com]

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:05 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Norris' Comments at Bill W's funeral







Thanks for the NY Times obit.



I was amused to read:



"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,

what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that

all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group

consciousness."



In my decades in AA it has always seemed a struggle for people to write

the words "group conscience" as it appears in our Tradition. It is

usually "group conscious" or some variation on that. "Group

consciousness" is a first for me. At least it's a noun and not an

adjective. I wonder if Norris actually said it, or if it was some Times

reporter scribbling as fast as he could :-)



Arkie Koehl

Honolulu

















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2202 Hugh D. Hyatt
Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book 2/17/2005 11:22:00 AM


unclebearboy@yahoo.com is alleged to have written, on or about 02/17/05

05:03:

>

> I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.

> But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I

> wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective

> local areas?

>

> Do you know who any of them are?



One is fairly good friend of mine who I met when I came into the rooms in

1992. She had less than a year's sobriety at the time. Most people do

not know that she's the author of a story in the Big Book. She doesn't

say that she is in her story. She obviously has quite a bit of humility

about it. Those of us who do know are -- as far as I can tell, which may

not be very far -- generally people who knew her before her story was

published and so do not treat her like a celebrity.



I also once met another author of a story from the Big Book at a meeting

in NJ. I didn't know till after we'd left the meeting and never would

have guessed it if I hadn't been told. He certainly didn't act like a

celebrity and no one at the meeting treated him that way. I have no idea

how many people knew that his story had been published.



--

Hugh H.

Bryn Athyn, PA



Liberty has never come from government.

Liberty has always come from the subjects of government.

The history of liberty is the history of resistance.

-- Woodrow T. Wilson


0 -1 0 0
2203 Kimball Rowe
Re: Big Book Editions Big Book Editions 2/18/2005 4:37:00 PM


In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a direct

result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service

Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided to

leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective conscience

of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 3rd

Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of which I was

one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th Edition. Was there

any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was the deciding factor, for

no one person speaks for AA.



A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at the

General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.



On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the general

consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It is the

general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group conscience,

which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe in the first 164

pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group conscience, have it

thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic recovers is his opinion.



Kim

In love and Service



----- Original Message -----

From: Jim

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions







What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164

pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?



Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second

Edition?



Who originally made this decision?



I am looking for documented historical sources.

Thank you in advance.



Jim

California











------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2206 gentle_bear
RE: Digest Number 709 Digest Number 709 2/19/2005 11:05:00 AM


Hi Guys,

I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.

Is this the total global estimate?

Where is this figure from?

Regards

Robin F.

Queensland

Australia.



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give

the gift of life to a sick child.

Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'

http://us.click.yahoo.com/3iazvD/6WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM

--------------------------------------------------------------------~->



There are 2 messages in this issue.



Topics in this digest:



1. Re: Big Book Editions

From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>

2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book

From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>





________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________



Message: 1

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700

From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>

Subject: Re: Big Book Editions



In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a

direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service

Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided

to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective

conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for

the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of

which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th

Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was

the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.



A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at

the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.



On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the

general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It

is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group

conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe

in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group

conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic

recovers is his opinion.



Kim

In love and Service



----- Original Message -----

From: Jim

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions







What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164

pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?



Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second

Edition?



Who originally made this decision?



I am looking for documented historical sources.

Thank you in advance.



Jim

California











----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________



Message: 2

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:56 -0800

From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book



Clyde; alcoholic,

I can understand peoples curiosity and/or the need to know from anyone

outside of AA to want to know specifically who wrote the BB, as well as whom

and where the stories in the BB came from. However, our tradtions remind us

to frey from making personalities out of AA member's. We are supposed to

keep our anonymity sacred, especially at the level of press, radio, TV and

film; which includes the internet. That we are supposed to always look for

the principal but not towards the personality. Not all whom come to AA whom

are already personalities find it comfortable to be segmented from the

regular membership. An example of that was when I heard Tony H. share. I

believe he said it best in a meeting I was at in LA last year. He said in

part that in AA, he gets to be Tony the drunk. Not the movie star everyone

seems to want to get to know. He doubted if anyone would want to get to

know him or even be attracted to him if he weren't Sir Anthony H. I tend to

agree with him. I suggest we honor the traditions and leave the rest to

wonder about.



Love in fellowship, Clyde G.









________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________







------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links









------------------------------------------------------------------------


0 -1 0 0
2207 J. Carey Thomas
change ? to BB text change ? to BB text 2/19/2005 2:36:00 PM


Folks,

Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I

would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"

-- or words to that effect?

_\|/_

(o o)

-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------


0 -1 0 0
2208 ArtSheehan
Special Post - Anonymity Special Post - Anonymity 2/19/2005 4:40:00 PM


To the AA members in the AAHistoryLovers (AAHL) special interest group



AAHL is neither an AA group nor an AA entity. While AAHL is not bound

by AA’s anonymity Traditions, everything possible will be done to

respect them.



Some recent posts have been distributed which inadvertently reveal the

identity of an AA member (the pseudonym used to disguise the member’s

identity is far too easy to figure out).



The message of concern (and others containing embedded copies of it)

cannot be recalled but the archived copies have been deleted.



The error was an honest one and every effort will be made to avoid

repeating it.



Arthur S

Co-Moderator



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2209 MikeB
Re: Digest Number 707 Digest Number 707 2/17/2005 12:13:00 PM


On Feb 17, 2005, at 10:51 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com wrote:



> I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.

> But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I

> wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective

> local areas?

>

> Do you know who any of them are?



I really had to chuckle at your questions, since I know one of the

authors quite well, and he's certainly not considered a celebrity

although he's a fine member of Alcoholics anonymous.



Mike B.


0 -1 0 0
2210 Kimball Rowe
Re: Digest Number 709 Digest Number 709 2/19/2005 8:29:00 PM


The number given is global. From 1951 on, the group/membership figures can be

found in the final Conference reports. 2003 and 2004 are estimates based on 2002

and trends. A table of these figrues can be found in the document

AA_Timeline_2004-4-01_Public04.pdf on Silkworth.net The table has it broken out

by US, Canada, Overseas, Hospitals and Prisons.



Kim



----- Original Message -----

From: gentle_bear

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:05 AM

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709





Hi Guys,

I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.

Is this the total global estimate?

Where is this figure from?

Regards

Robin F.

Queensland

Australia.



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give

the gift of life to a sick child.

Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'

http://us.click.yahoo.com/3iazvD/6WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM

--------------------------------------------------------------------~->



There are 2 messages in this issue.



Topics in this digest:



1. Re: Big Book Editions

From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>

2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book

From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>





________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________



Message: 1

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700

From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>

Subject: Re: Big Book Editions



In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a

direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service

Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided

to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective

conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for

the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of

which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th

Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was

the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.



A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at

the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.



On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the

general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It

is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group

conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe

in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group

conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic

recovers is his opinion.



Kim

In love and Service



----- Original Message -----

From: Jim

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions







What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164

pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?



Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second

Edition?



Who originally made this decision?



I am looking for documented historical sources.

Thank you in advance.



Jim

California











----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________



Message: 2

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:56 -0800

From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book



Clyde; alcoholic,

I can understand peoples curiosity and/or the need to know from anyone

outside of AA to want to know specifically who wrote the BB, as well as whom

and where the stories in the BB came from. However, our tradtions remind us

to frey from making personalities out of AA member's. We are supposed to

keep our anonymity sacred, especially at the level of press, radio, TV and

film; which includes the internet. That we are supposed to always look for

the principal but not towards the personality. Not all whom come to AA whom

are already personalities find it comfortable to be segmented from the

regular membership. An example of that was when I heard Tony H. share. I

believe he said it best in a meeting I was at in LA last year. He said in

part that in AA, he gets to be Tony the drunk. Not the movie star everyone

seems to want to get to know. He doubted if anyone would want to get to

know him or even be attracted to him if he weren't Sir Anthony H. I tend to

agree with him. I suggest we honor the traditions and leave the rest to

wonder about.



Love in fellowship, Clyde G.









________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________







------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links









------------------------------------------------------------------------















Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



Get unlimited calls to



U.S./Canada









------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2211 Doug B.
Re: Digest Number 709 Digest Number 709 2/20/2005 9:37:00 AM


I just looked in my final report and the total number is not 2.6 million.



It is 2,066,851 .... so the number should have been written 2.06 million.

(thats a difference of 600,000 members....or 29% of the actual membership)



These are the actual membership estimates:



United States was 1,187,169

Canada was 96,446

Correctional Facilities was 66,509

Internationalists was 70

Lone members was 204

Total is 1,350,398



Outside US and Canada was 716,453



Grand Total (estimated) is 2,066,851



I find that there is no substitution for the actual source of information,

whenever possible, because folks make mistakes...then others will quote

them....and then the myth becomes "truth" in some minds....thats one reason a

group like this exists....to seek the actual truth.



Doug B.



[Ref:] 2004 Final Report, Our Singleness of Purpose - The Cornerstone of AA,

from the staff report on page 32



The 54th Annual Meeting of the

General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous









Kimball Rowe wrote:



> The number given is global. From 1951 on, the group/membership figures can be

found in the final Conference reports. 2003 and 2004 are estimates based on 2002

and trends. A table of these figrues can be found in the document

AA_Timeline_2004-4-01_Public04.pdf on Silkworth.net The table has it broken out

by US, Canada, Overseas, Hospitals and Prisons.

>

> Kim

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: gentle_bear

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:05 AM

> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709

>

> Hi Guys,

> I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.

> Is this the total global estimate?

> Where is this figure from?

> Regards

> Robin F.

> Queensland

> Australia.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]

> Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comrowek@softcom.net>

> 2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book

> From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> ________________________________________________________________________

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700

> From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>

> Subject: Re: Big Book Editions

>

> In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a

> direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service

> Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided

> to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective

> conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for

> the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of

> which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th

> Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was

> the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.

>

> A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at

> the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

>

> On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the

> general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It

> is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group

> conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe

> in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group

> conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic

> recovers is his opinion.

>

> Kim

> In love and Service

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Jim

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2212 Robert Stonebraker
RE: change ? to BB text change ? to BB text 2/20/2005 11:42:00 AM


Pages 200, "Pass It On" states: (According to an apocryphal story, Bill

was asked in later years whether there was any change he wished he could

have made in the Big Book, and he replied he would change "rarely" to

"never." . Bill himself said he never considered that change.)



And



On page 245 of "Not God," by E. Kurtz, Bill states in a 1961 letter: "I

think the main reason for the use of the word "rarely" was to avoid anything

that would look like a claim of 100% result."



Bob S.









-----Original Message-----

From: J. Carey Thomas [mailto:jct3@juno.com]

Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:37 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text





Folks,

Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I

would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"

-- or words to that effect?

_\|/_

(o o)

-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2213 DeafAA@aol.com
History History 2/20/2005 8:29:00 AM


Hello



I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings during the

early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob during 1940's or

1950's???



Jane



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2214 ny-aa@att.net
Re: Digest Number 709 Digest Number 709 2/20/2005 1:42:00 PM


An Advisory Action by the 1995 General Service Conference authorized work on a

Fourth Edition of the Big Book. It repeated previous decisions that the first

164 pages, the\Prefaces, the Prologues, "The Doctor's Opinion," "Dr. Bob's

Nightmarem" ane the Appendices remain as is.



The area delegates to the General Service Conference are from the United States

and Canada. Certainly they considered the needs of alcoholics in other countries

and those who were incarcerated (total estimate of 1,922,269) but they directly

represented the group conscience of 1,251,192 A.A. members that year.


0 -1 0 0
2215 Ernest Kurtz
Re: History History 2/20/2005 5:10:00 PM


Hi Jane,



I doubt that you will find the exact information you seek (unless

someone else on this listserv knows it) but there is a wealth of general

information at http://www.dhh12s.com/index.htm Not much history, I'm

afraid, but I am often amazed at what I find browsing such pages.



ernie



DeafAA@aol.com wrote:



>

> Hello

>

> I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings

> during the early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob

> during 1940's or 1950's???

>

> Jane

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cfd4js7/M=324658.6070095.7083352.3001176/D=grphea\

lth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109012923/A=2343726/R=0/SIG=12ida89nd/*http://clk.atdmt\

.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=1108926523659646
>

>

>

> Get unlimited calls to

>

> U.S./Canada

>

>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cfd4js7/M=324658.6070095.7083352.3001176/D=grphea\

lth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109012923/A=2343726/R=1/SIG=12ida89nd/*http://clk.atdmt\

.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=1108926523659646
>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

> * To visit your group on the web, go to:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

>

> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> <mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

>

> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2216 ArtSheehan
Response to Inquiry About Big Book Editions Response to Inquiry About Big Book Editions 2/20/2005 7:21:00 PM


The 1st edition



In November 1937, Bill and Dr Bob met in Akron. Bill had ideas for a

chain of hospitals, paid missionaries and a book of experience to

carry the message to distant places. His ideas passed by 2 votes among

18 members (1 vote actually made the difference).



Up to December 1938, the recovery program was made up of 6 Steps

(passed on to new members by word of mouth). Bill changed this to 12

written Steps to add clarity and close loopholes the alcoholics were

wiggling through. Differing versions of the 6 Steps are listed in “The

Language of the Heart,” “AA Comes of Age,” “Pass It On” and the Big

Book Pioneer story “He Sold Himself Short."



In March 1939, a heavily edited manuscript was turned over to Tom

Uzzell, an editor at Collier’s and a member of the NYU faculty. The

manuscript was variously estimated as 600 to 800 pages. Uzzell reduced

it to 400 pages. Most cuts came from the stories.



On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the 1st edition of “Alcoholics

Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy ($46 a copy today). The

printer was told to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large,

bulky volume became known as the “Big Book” and the name has stuck

ever since. The idea behind the thick and large paper was to convince

the alcoholics they were getting their money’s worth.



Despite many assertions to the contrary, the Big Book does not

"precisely" (in the sense of "exactly") describe the recovery program

used by the first 100 members. The book actually transformed the 6

Step recovery program then used into something quite different. In the

literary sense "precisely" simply means "short and to the point."



The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was from 1 to 179

(not 164). “The Doctor's Opinion” was originally page 1. “Bill's

Story” did not become page 1 until the 2nd edition.



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing

of the 1st edition. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to

“spiritual awakening” and “as the result of these steps” was changed

to “as the result of those steps.” The appendix “Spiritual Experience”

was added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular

spiritual experience like the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The

changes emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the type

that the psychologist William James called the “educational variety.”



The 2nd edition



In April 1952, based on a 1951 advisory action, the Board formed a

special committee on literature and made a report to the 1952

Conference. The Board recommended literature items that should be

retained and future items that would be needed. Bill W also reported

on the literature projects he was engaged in. One of them included

updating the story section of the Big Book.



The Conference unanimously approved the Board proposals and Bill's

projects. This led to Conference-approval of the 2nd edition and

retroactive approval of the 1st edition and several pamphlets.



In 1955, AA’s 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention

occurred in St Louis, MO. AA came of age. The General Service

Conference became the Guardian of the Traditions and group conscience

of the entire Fellowship. The 2nd edition Big Book was also published.

30 new personal stories were introduced.



In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of

the 2nd edition. The term “as the result of those steps” was restored

to “as the result of these steps.”



The 3rd edition



The 1976 Conference approved the 3rd edition.



300,000 copies of the 1st edition were distributed from 1939 to 1955.

1,150,000 copies of the 2nd edition were distributed from 1955 to

1976. 19,550,000 copies of the 3rd edition were distributed from 1976

to 2002. Distribution reached the 1 million mark in 1973 and the 22

million mark in 2001.



4th edition



The 2002 Conference approved the 4th edition. More than 3,000,000

copies of it have been distributed so far. Big Book distribution

surpassed 25 million copies in January 2005.



Changes to the basic text



Contrary to popular belief, many wording changes have been made to the

“basic text.” In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term

"ex-alcoholic" was replaced by "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."



Other changes updated numerical values to show growth (e.g. "scores"

changed to "hundreds" changed to "thousands" etc). Also, foot notes

were added. Several web sites have tables detailing all the wording

changes from edition to edition.



The sentiments of the membership



The basic text is "protected" from radical change by the prevailing

sentiment of the entire AA Fellowship. Changes can be made by

Conference advisory action but it’s doubtful they would get very far.



As early as the 2nd edition (1955) Bill W sensed that the Fellowship

was resistant to changing the basic text. The inside flap of the 2nd

edition dust jacket states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1

to page 165 [sic] remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of

most AAs, this should stand as first written."



The foreword to the 3rd edition probably best describes it with the

statement "Because this book has become the basic text for our Society

and has helped such large numbers of alcoholic men and women to

recovery, there exists a sentiment against any radical changes being

made to it. Therefore, the first portion of this volume, describing

the AA recovery program, has been left untouched in the course of

revisions made for both the second and third editions."



Several Conference advisory actions for the 4th edition reaffirmed

that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text,

appendices and “Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to remain "as is."



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
2217 Glenn Chesnut
New articles on AA history New articles on AA history 2/21/2005 2:30:00 AM


Articles and essays from the Hindsfoot Foundation webpage have been appearing in

the AAHistoryLovers for quite some time. They have been on topics like early AA

prison groups, early black AA leaders, the role of the Upper Room in helping

shape the spirituality of the Big Book, the authors of Twenty-Four Hours a Day

and The Little Red Book, and so on.



It has been decided to discontinue doing this, because the way AAHistoryLovers

messages have to be posted, it is difficult to format many of the articles so

that they can be read easily, and even more important, it is impossible to

include photos of first editions and people and places.



If however you would like to continue to read them when they come out, could you

please send us an email at "hfaabooks" hyphen "mail" at "yahoo" dot "com":



hfaabooks-mail@yahoo.com



If this link doesn't work, click on this link instead --

http://hindsfoot.org/hfaabooks.html -- and then click on the email address given

on that page.



Every month or so, when a new article or essay comes out, an email will be sent

to your address giving the title of the piece and a link which you can click on

if you want to read it.



If later on you decide that you don't want these notices coming, just let us

know at the same email address, and we'll remove you from the list immediately.

(This is just a little private sub-account in the e-mail system we use for

corresponding with authors when we are editing their books. It's handy for this

purpose because there is a button we can click in that separate address folder

and send the same email to a number of people simultaneously.)



Or you can just check the Hindsfoot Foundation site itself every once in a

while:



http://hindsfoot.org/



This address takes you to the home page. At the bottom of that page, there is an

index of all the articles and essays arranged in reverse chronological order.

The ones at the top of the list are the ones which have appeared most recently.



Thanks,



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2218 Bill Lash
RE: change ? to BB text change ? to BB text 2/20/2005 9:30:00 PM


"Rarely - or Never?"



How co-founder Bill Wilson answered a frequently asked question.



The AA Grapevine, December 1978



From time to time over the years, some AA members will question the wording

of the first sentence of Chapter 5 of Alcoholics Anonymous: "Rarely have we

seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Why, the

enthusiastic member asks, doesn't the Big Book say, "Never have we seen a

person fail..."?



This question was answered - several times - by an AA well qualified to

speak on the subject, since he wrote the book, with the assistance of other

early members.



Bill Wilson, AA's co-founder, answered a 1961 letter from Minnesota with

these words (preserved, like those of the following letter, in the archives

at the AA General Service Office): "Concerning your comment about the use of

the word 'rarely" in Chapter 5 of the Big Book: My recollection is that we

did give this considerable thought at the time of writing. I think the main

reason for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid anything that would

look like a claim of a 100% result. Assuming, of course, that an alcoholic

is willing enough and sane enough, there can be a perfect score on [a person

of this sort]. But since willingness and sanity are such elusive and

fluctuating values, we simply didn't want to be too positive. The medical

profession could jump right down our throats.



"Then, too, we have seen people who have apparently tried their very best,

and then failed, not because of unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of

physical tension or some undisclosed quirk, not known to them or anyone

else. Neither did we want to over encourage relatives and friends in the

supposition that their dear ones could surely get well in AA if only they

were willing. I think that's why we chose that word. I remember thinking

about it a lot.



"Maybe some of these same reasons would apply to present conditions. Anyhow,

I do know this: The text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds of tens of

thousands of AA’s that even the slightest change creates an uproar."



*************************



In 1967, Bill made the following reply to a Florida member asking the same

question: "Respecting my use of the word 'rarely,' I think it was chosen

because it did not express an absolute state of affairs, such as 'never'

does. Anyhow, we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely.' My few efforts

to change the wording of the AA book have always come to naught - the

protests are always too many."



*************************



And at the 1970 General Service Conference, this Ask-It-Basket question was

addressed directly to Bill: "If there was any change you would make in the

Big Book, would it be to change the word 'rarely' to 'never' at the start of

Chapter 5.



Bill answered, "No."



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill



-----Original Message-----

From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]

Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 11:43 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text



Pages 200, "Pass It On" states: (According to an apocryphal story, Bill

was asked in later years whether there was any change he wished he could

have made in the Big Book, and he replied he would change "rarely" to

"never." . Bill himself said he never considered that change.)



And



On page 245 of "Not God," by E. Kurtz, Bill states in a 1961 letter: "I

think the main reason for the use of the word "rarely" was to avoid

anything

that would look like a claim of 100% result."



Bob S.



-----Original Message-----

From: J. Carey Thomas [mailto:jct3@juno.com]

Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:37 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text



Folks,

Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I

would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"

-- or words to that effect?

_\|/_

(o o)

-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------



Yahoo! Groups Links

























Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



Get unlimited calls to



U.S./Canada









----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2219 Keith Dunn
1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/21/2005 9:23:00 PM


Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.

The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing

date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000. The eighth printing

shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests there

are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16

printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of

the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of

the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated

demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but

the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The

book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945. But, taking into

account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact that

the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th

printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and

the resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more

books (and profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay

within government guidelines. Any suggestions as to where to go for

information, or does anyone have any feedback on this?

Love and Service, Keith D



*****

Art, feel free to respond directly, and forward this to anyone who

can be of help. I didn't know if protocol dictated I send this

straight to the "group", or if I could send it to some archivists

directly. I am aware this is pretty "deep." I've done a lot of

research in the archive arena, and have few resources in Nebraska.

Thanks for your help.


0 -1 0 0
2220 righteousthug
Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II 2/22/2005 5:22:00 PM


It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the

formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a

sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew

someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I

think about it.



Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an

important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big

Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,

Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then

France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,

the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.



Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans

moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry

factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war

diaspora because of the aviation industry.



I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone

announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having

their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell

a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was

(apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.



My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect

that WWII had on the spread of AA?



/rt

6/14/88


0 -1 0 0
2221 Audrey Borden
Re: Deaf People in AA Deaf People in AA 2/22/2005 7:50:00 PM


Greetings everyone,



Regarding Jane's recent question about deaf AA members, this isn't much but

it might be helpful. The information is from Bob P.'s unpublished material

(from the section on Special Purpose groups in AA):



* The first group of AA for deaf and hearing impaired members was formed

in Los Angeles in 1962.



* In 1985 the AA General Service Office listed over a hundred groups and

contacts for deaf members.



Perhaps the Los Angeles Central Office could put you in touch with someone

who knows more about the history of this first group, or the archivist at

the General Service Office.



Regards, -- Audrey in California





Message: 3

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:29:11 EST

From: DeafAA@aol.com

Subject: History





Hello



I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings during

the early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob during

1940's or 1950's???



Jane


0 -1 0 0
2222 Mel Barger
McGhee Baxter McGhee Baxter 2/23/2005 9:21:00 AM


Hi Friends,



In "On the Tail of a Comet," Garth Lean's splendid biography of Frank Buchman,

there's a mention on page 140 of McGhee Baxter, who is described as an alcoholic

whom Buchman had helped. Baxter resumed drinking, however, and was apparently

quite a problem for the Oxford Group team that went to South Africa in 1929. He

was reportedly pursuing Eleanor Forde in the hope of marrying her, but she

wisely resisted his charms!



McGhee later was in Richmond, Virginia, and was one of the early AA members

there. In "Pass It On," pp. 170-173, Bill Wilson explains to a Richmond member

why AA separated from the Oxford Group. Though not mentioned in the book, the

Richmond member was McGhee Baxter. McGhee also may have lived for a time in

Weaverville, N.C.



Eleanor Forde later married Jim Newton, who was responsible for carrying the

O.G. message to "Bud" Firestone in Akron, thus starting a chain of events that

resulted in the 1933 Oxford Group rally that brought in several people who would

help Dr. Bob and the early Akron AA members. Some years ago, I spent a pleasant

afternoon in Ft. Myers Beach with Jim and Ellie Newton. They remembered McGhee

fondly and were delighted to hear that he may have found sobriety in AA.



Does anybody have any information about McGhee and how he fared in AA? He was

obviously a very conscientious and devoted AA member at the time he wrote to

Bill. The Newtons have passed on (Ellie lived to be 103), but it would still be

interesting to know how things worked out for McGhee.



McGhee also appears to have been an Oxford Group member who made an early

transition into AA. Nell Wing did some research and concluded that quite a few

O.G. members found their way into AA.

Mel Barger









~~~~~~~~

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2223 ArtSheehan
RE: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/23/2005 7:58:00 PM


Hi Keith



From the information I have (see below). it shows 20,000 copies for

the 8th printing. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this figure and

am uncomfortable with it. Plus the number you cite (5,000 copies)

seems much more consistent with the trend of the war years

mobilization period from 1941 thru 1943.



AA membership exploded after the War. I have a table that contains

figures on the number of Big Books distributed over the years but very

little info on the printings.



Printings of Alcoholics Anonymous First Editions



1st - Apr 1939, 4,730 Printed, Red Binding

2nd - Mar 1941, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding

3rd - Jun 1942, 5,000 Printed, Light Blue Binding

4th - Mar 1943, 3,500 Printed, Green Binding

5th - Jan 1944, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding

6th - Jun 1944, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding

7th - Jan 1945, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding

8th - Feb 1945,20,000 Printed, Blue Binding

9th - Jan 1946, 20,000 Printed, Blue Binding

10th - Aug 1946, 25,000 Printed, Blue Binding

11th - Jun 1947, 25,000 Printed, Blue Binding

12th - 25000 Printed, Blue Binding

13th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding

14th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding

15th, - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding

16th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding

_____



From: Keith Dunn [mailto:werdunn_99@yahoo.com]

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:23 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st Edition, 7th printing



Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.

The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing

date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000.



The eighth printing shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests

there are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16

printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of

the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of

the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated

demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but

the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The

book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945.



But, taking into account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact

that the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th

printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and the

resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more books (and

profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay within government

guidelines.



Any suggestions as to where to go for information, or does anyone have any

feedback on this?



Love and Service, Keith D



























Yahoo! Groups Sponsor







<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cion76n/M=324658.6070095.7083352.300117

6/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109138577/A=2343726/R=0/SIG=12i889o

le/*http:/clk.atdmt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=110

9052177126419>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cion76n/M=324658.6070095.7083352.300117

6/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109138577/A=2343726/R=1/SIG=12i889o

le/*http:/clk.atdmt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=110

9052177126419>



Get unlimited calls to

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cion76n/M=324658.6070095.7083352.300117

6/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109138577/A=2343726/R=1/SIG=12i889o

le/*http:/clk.atdmt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=110

9052177126419>



U.S./Canada

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cion76n/M=324658.6070095.7083352.300117

6/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109138577/A=2343726/R=1/SIG=12i889o

le/*http:/clk.atdmt.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=110

9052177126419>





<http://view.atdmt.com/VON/view/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=11

09052177126419>







<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=324658.6070095.7083352.3001176/D=grp

health/S=:HM/A=2343726/rand=215138764>







_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib

e>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2224 WCompWdsUnl@aol.com
Singleness of Purpose Singleness of Purpose 2/22/2005 6:40:00 AM


Could anyone provide me with any related history about how the principle of

Singleness of Purpose was adopted by the early A.A. members. Who? When? Why?

Under what circumstances? Were there any members who disagreed, if so, why?

etc>



Thank you,



Larry W.

(Atlanta, GA)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2225 courtautomation
Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg 2/22/2005 2:06:00 PM


Hi Folks!

Thanks for having this fantastic group!



I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA

history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am

generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and

current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.



In "The Soul of Sponsorship" about the friendship of Bill W. and

Father Ed, it mentions that Bill and Lois were married in "Lois's

family's Swedenborgian church," is there any more information about

whether Lois was an active Swedenborgian?



Thanks in advance for the help.



-Craig S.

Alcoholic


0 -1 0 0
2226 Jeffrey Johnson
Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg 2/24/2005 12:11:00 AM


Craig,



Below, please find a compilation of posts to AAhistorylovers from the summer of

2003 regarding the topic of ‘Swedenborgian roots in AA’. Please be aware, you

should search the AAhistorylovers archive during that period, as there may be

additional relevant information in other posts. These particular posts were of

interest to me, and as a result, they are the only ones I saved.



Regards,

Jeff J



They must be thinking of Lois Wilson as Swedenborgian. Her grandfather, Nathan

Clark Burnham, was a Swedenborgian minister in Lancaster, PA. We can assume

that some of this influenced Lois. The connection is mentioned on page 2 of

"Lois Remembers," published in 1979 by Alanon.



Mel Barger



Lois Wilson's paternal grandfather, Nathan Clarke Burnham, practiced law,

medicine and was also a minister of the Swedenborgian Church. He wrote a book

"Discrete Degrees" about the relation Swedenborg had found between the spiritual

and natural life.



Re the book "Lois Remembers" page 2.



On January 24, 1918 Lois and Bill were married in the Swedeborgian Church in

Brooklyn, NY.



Cheers

Arthur



I wouldn't be surprised if all four of them (Bill W., Lois, Dr. Bob, and Ann)

had read some Swedenborgian material at some point, because they were all

fascinated with unconventional religious movements, spiritualism, and so on --

it's a possibility, but I've never run across any specific references. Perhaps

someone else in the AAHistoryLovers could come up with a specific reference?



But I wonder if your Swedenborgian chaplain got something a little garbled here,

and left out a step or two in the transmission process. William James, author

of The Varieties of Religious Experience, had a profound effect on the founders

of A.A. -- we all know that.



William James' father was a Swedenborgian theologian, and I should imagine that

a Swedenborgian would notice many things in The Varieties of Religious

Experience (some of the questions asked, and the kind of data that James was

looking at, and some of the interpretations) that were the product of a

Swedenborgian upbringing. And the Swedenborgians may still claim William James

as "one of their own," which may have been why the chaplain made that statement.



So it is possible that all that the chaplain was really referring to was the

heavy use which Bill and Bob and Lois and Ann made of The Varieties of Religious

Experience and the ideas of William James.



On the other hand, there may have been more involved -- which would be very

interesting to know -- so I too would be curious to find out if anyone else in

the AAHistoryLovers group knows of any specific references to the Swedenborgians

in the lives (and reading) of Lois or Ann.



Glenn Chesnut, Indiana University (South Bend)



P.S. For those who haven't heard of this group, Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772)

was a Swedish scientist who turned into a mystic and visionary in his later

years (direct contact with the angels, etc.). He insisted that the spiritual

realm was more basic than the material realm, and that the Universe had a

fundamental spiritual structure. It's a pantheistic system: everything is God,

and God is in everything.



Swedenborgianism was one of the ancestors of New Thought (Emmet Fox et al.) and

similar movements which came later on. The New Jerusalem Church (the group

which his followers formed) established their first congregation in the United

States at Baltimore in 1792, and there are still about 40,000 Swedenborgians

worldwide. I've seen their place in Boston.



courtautomation <courtautomation@excite.com> wrote:



Hi Folks!



Thanks for having this fantastic group!



I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA

history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am

generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and

current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.



In "The Soul of Sponsorship" about the friendship of Bill W. and

Father Ed, it mentions that Bill and Lois were married in "Lois's

family's Swedenborgian church," is there any more information about

whether Lois was an active Swedenborgian?



Thanks in advance for the help.



-Craig S.

Alcoholic



Yahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2227 ArtSheehan
RE: Singleness of Purpose Singleness of Purpose 2/23/2005 9:19:00 PM


The Washington Temperance Society



In April 1840, six drinking friends in Baltimore, MD formed the

“Washington Temperance Society” and later became known as the

“Washingtonians.”



They required a pledge of total abstinence and attendance at weekly

meetings where members would relate their stories of drunkenness and

recovery. As a body, they recognized no religion or creed. They were

politically neutral and each member was supposed to help alcoholics

who were still drinking.



Over the following years, Washingtonian membership evolved to consist

primarily of non-alcoholic temperance advocates and a large number of

adolescents who were under age 15.



Their membership reached several hundred thousand but the number of

alcoholics in the mix was likely well under 150,000.



As the membership makeup changed, sentiments shifted away from

reforming (or helping) alcoholics, to pursuing a legal means of

prohibiting alcohol. Washingtonian practices came to be viewed as

outmoded and interest in them faded. There was no sudden or massive

collapse. They simply faded out of existence over time.



Some claim that issues such as Washingtonian involvement in religion,

politics and abolition of slavery led to their downfall. While there

were some incidents of this, there is not much compelling evidence to

support the conclusion that it played any real significant role in the

Washingtonian’s downfall.



The root cause of the Washingtonian’s downfall appears to be their

major departure from their original membership makeup (of all

alcoholics) and their major departure from their original primary

purpose (of one alcoholic trying to help another alcoholic).



It’s a powerful lesson on the importance of AA’s Traditions.



________________________________________

From: WCompWdsUnl@aol.com [mailto:WCompWdsUnl@aol.com]

Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:40 AM

To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Singleness of Purpose





Could anyone provide me with any related history about how the

principle of 

Singleness of Purpose was adopted by the early A.A. members.  Who?

When?  Why?

Under what circumstances?  Were there any members who disagreed, if 

so, why?

etc>



Thank you,



Larry W.

(Atlanta, GA)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT









________________________________________

Yahoo! Groups Links

• To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

 

• To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

• Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


0 -1 0 0
2228 Ken WENTZ
Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/24/2005 2:37:00 AM


Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First edition Big Book would be

worth today?



My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine condition & may need to

have it appraised. Any help would be appreciated



Ken W.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2229 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II 2/24/2005 10:51:00 AM


Hi RT,



Not much has been written of the effect of WWII on AA. There is a lot

"between the lines" in *AA comes of Age*. A current scholar, Rich

Dubiel, who is stydying AA styles in Newfoundland, learned that AA got

to that island only after the war.



But what a great topic fow whoever is going to be revising *Not-God*!

And we had better get to that generation fast



ernie



righteousthug wrote:

>

>

> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the

> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a

> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew

> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I

> think about it.

>

> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an

> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big

> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,

> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then

> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,

> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.

>

> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans

> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry

> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war

> diaspora because of the aviation industry.

>

> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone

> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having

> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell

> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was

> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.

>

> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect

> that WWII had on the spread of AA?

>

> /rt

> 6/14/88

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cr4tl8v/M=324658.6070095.7083352.3001176/D=grphea\

lth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109293270/A=2343726/R=0/SIG=12idja9p4/*http://clk.atdmt\

.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=1109206870430646
>

>

>

> Get unlimited calls to

>

> U.S./Canada

>

>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cr4tl8v/M=324658.6070095.7083352.3001176/D=grphea\

lth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109293270/A=2343726/R=1/SIG=12idja9p4/*http://clk.atdmt\

.com/VON/go/yhxxxvon01900091von/direct/01/&time=1109206870430646
>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

> * To visit your group on the web, go to:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

>

> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> <mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

>

> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2230 Hugh D. Hyatt
Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg 2/24/2005 10:18:00 AM


As a life-long practicing Swedenborgian, this has been a topic of great

interest to me even from the time before I joined A.A. Some of my fellow

alcoholic Swedenborgians see a profound influence of Swedenborgianism on

Bill W. Personally, I do not. To me it seems, at best, to have been a

minor influence and quite likely more indirect, through Jung and James,

rather than through any connection via Lois's family.



My basis for saying this is simply the lack of any clear Swedenborgian

influence in anything I've seen that Bill W. wrote. I am quite familiar

with the church's doctrines and Emanuel Swedenborg's writings. If they

had had a profound impact on Bill, I would expect him to have wrestled

with a different set of issues than he seemed to.



I don't consider myself an expert on the subject of Swedenborgian

influence on Bill. I did forward the original post to a Swedenborgian

minister who I know has an interest in this subject, having corresponded

with him not too long ago about Susan Cheever's biography and her

mentions of Swedenborg. I'm hoping he will respond with something I can

forward to this list.



> P.S. For those who haven't heard of this group, Emanuel Swedenborg

> (1688-1772) was a Swedish scientist who turned into a mystic and

> visionary in his later years (direct contact with the angels,

> etc.). He insisted that the spiritual realm was more basic than

> the material realm, and that the Universe had a fundamental

> spiritual structure. It's a pantheistic system: everything is

> God, and God is in everything.

>

> Swedenborgianism was one of the ancestors of New Thought (Emmet Fox

> et al.) and similar movements which came later on. The New

> Jerusalem Church (the group which his followers formed) established

> their first congregation in the United States at Baltimore in 1792,

> and there are still about 40,000 Swedenborgians worldwide. I've

> seen their place in Boston.



This is a fair summary, except for the allegation that it's a pantheistic

system. While Swedenborg's writings seem to me to recognize an certain

immanence of god (and not every -- maybe even very few -- Swedenborgians

would agree with me on that), the primary doctrine Swedenborg taught was

that Jesus Christ is the one and only god of the universe, spiritual and

natural. He identified Jesus as the incarnation in the natural world of

the Jewish god, Yahweh or Jehovah.



Swedenborg vehemently opposed the division of god into three persons and

the Protestant doctrine of faith alone. "Faith without works is dead" is

a very Swedenborgian thing to say, but Swedenborg himself averred that

the book of James was *not* a part of the Word of God, i.e. not a

divinely inspired book that belonged in the Christian canon. His list

included only five books of the New Testament: the four gospels and

Revelation.

--

Hugh H.

Bryn Athyn, PA



How can you expect to govern a country that

has two hundred and forty-six kinds of cheese?

-- Charles de Gaulle


0 -1 0 0
2231 Dolores Rinecker
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II 2/24/2005 3:56:00 PM


Hi, I am interested in getting more history about the Servicemen who were

stationed in West Germany right after the WWII. I have put some history

together and am interested in getting more. The first meetings were held in

Frankfurt in 1948. All the early groups were Loner groups. Those men were

very influencial in getting english speaking AA going here on the Continent. I

have put together a short history of the history over here and if you are

interested I can send a copy to you. Bill W. was asked to speak at the

Wiesbaden Round-up in 1962 but "graciosly declined". I am looking for more

history to fill in the empty spaces-years. Hope to hear from you. Yours in

AA Dolores R.











"righteousthug" <righteousthug@dellmail.com> schrieb:

>

>

>

> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the

> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a

> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew

> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I

> think about it.

>

> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an

> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big

> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,

> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then

> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,

> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.

>

> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans

> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry

> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war

> diaspora because of the aviation industry.

>

> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone

> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having

> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell

> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was

> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.

>

> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect

> that WWII had on the spread of AA?

>

> /rt

> 6/14/88

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2232 Tommy
Information Needed for Big Book Column Inventory History Information Needed for Big Book Column Inventory History 2/24/2005 5:16:00 PM


Hi everyone,



I am searching for any information on the Creation of the 4th step

inventory used in the Big Book,the column one.I have noticed

liabilities and assest checklist in articles,personal stories in the

Big Book,Grapevine articles,and from speakers themselves.The creation

of the column inventory remains a mystery to me.I would appriciate any

information I could get.Thanks for your help.

Tommy H.

N.Carolina


0 -1 0 0
2233 Pete
Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/24/2005 9:39:00 PM


Ken,



Five years ago I was offered a 1st edition 1st printing Big Book signed by

Bill Wilson. Bill wrote a flap message in the book to "My Dear Pete" in

1951. Looks like the Pete he signed the book for was an AA delegate. As my

name is Pete, I got hooked and bought it after some research.



First, I showed the book to a rare book collector who is in the program and

offered to pay him to appraise the book. He did not charge me and said the

book and message looked valid to him and he said it was simply worth what I

was willing to pay. The bottom third of the flap page had been replaced with

a new piece of paper and he said this is common as many times there was an

Al-Anon message there from Lois and that folks removed and saved those

messages for a number of reasons. He said there simply are not enough of the

early books selling to establish a price structure and he could not price

mine.



Then the book seller, Earl H., an excellent AA archivist in Oklahoma found

some personal letters written in 1961 from a Howard B. to a George (both

delegates) mentioning the Pete B. on the flap of my book that gave good

insight into some of the AA issues of the day for the delegates.



Earl also said he had the book pages treated so that they would not crack

and they are soft and flexible today. The binding had also been repaired. So

I felt I knew who the owned the book and who restored it and that Bill had

written in it. And Earl said there were 4,650 books printed in the first

printing.



My web research in 1999 showed that a number of 1st edition books were being

sold abroad and that the prices were increasing dramatically. There was a

value at that time of about $2,500 for a good condition 1st edition 1st

printing book. I had trouble finding more than a few for sale at that time.

The prices looked like they doubled if Bill had signed the book and the

price doubled if it had an original dust cover because most original buyers

ripped off the bright red/yellow jacket and threw it away. There is a laser

copy reproduction of the original dust jacket that is on my book.



Last year I color photo copied the inside message and the Contents and sent

it to the curator at Stepping Stones to see what she thought of the Bill

Wilson signature and the message and the book. The signature actually reads

Bill Wilson. She said she had never seen a Bill Wilson signature on a book

as he always signed them just Bill. She felt (after years of seeing Bill's

writings) the handwriting was Bill's on my book from the "My Dear Pete" to

the "Bill" but that someone else had added Wilson and I believe she is

correct. She also said I have a good book and to enjoy and treasure it. She

knew of no easy way to place a value on the book or any of the early Big

Books.



This book fired my interest in AA history and membership in this group. It

somehow gives me a connection I needed to Bill as I read it and share it

with others. Recently I spent some time at Stepping Stones and read all

available on the last 60 days of Bill's life and got to see his Big Book. He

had penciled in on the stories in the CONTENTS who was in and out of future

printings - I assume based on sobriety.



Not sure why you need it appraised, but enjoy and treasure it and keep on

sharing it with all interested.



Peace,



Pete K.

PS: Below is a current listing from AbeBooks.com



Alcoholics Anonymous

BILL WILSON]



Price: US$ 20000.00 [Convert Currency]

Shipping: [Rates and Speeds]



Book Description: New York: Works Publishing Company, 1939. Half-title

+ TP + v-viii + half-title + 1-400 + 3 blank leaves, large Octavo. First

Edition, First Printing wth the Original Dust Jacket. " A rare book despite

a press run of 4,650 copies. FIRST PRINTING ISSUE POINTS: Jacket spine and

inside front flap do not have a printing number The binding is red - the

only issue in that color There is gilt lettering on the front cover and the

spine The title page states: "How More Than One Hundred Men Have Recovered

From Alcoholism". Page 154, line 29: "abberations" misspelled Page 234, line

27: repeats line 26 Dust jacket is a bit faded on spine and very slightly

worn an torn. There are some old tape discolorations along the front edge of

the dust jacket, the rear edge of the dust jacket and in the lower left

corner of the rear panel. There is an old library label affixed to the lower

portion of the spine with "616.86 / AAt" written on it. Nevertheless, this a

VERY honest dust jacket. The book has been dustjacketed throughout its life

with bright and completely intact gilt lettering on the front cover and the

spine. The book has three names neatly written on the front flyleaf: "Dr. R.

S. Bookhammer" / "Reve. A. F Greene" / "Rodney Elder". Otherwise, a bright,

clean and totally unmarked copy. ADDITIONAL PHOTOS AVAILABLE UPON REQUEST.

Bookseller Inventory #000120



Bookseller: Athena Rare Books ABAA (Fairfield, CT, U.S.A.)









----- Original Message -----

From: "Ken WENTZ" <ayceeman@msn.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:37 AM

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st Edition, 7th printing







> Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First edition Big Book would

> be worth today?

>

> My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine condition & may need

> to have it appraised. Any help would be appreciated

>

> Ken W.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2234 Charles Knapp
WWII & AA in Calif WWII & AA in Calif 2/25/2005 2:16:00 AM


Hello from rainy California



Here in Southern California W.W.II had an indirect effect on the growth of

AA. The first meeting in Southern California was held December 19, 1939 in

Los Angeles. It was started and run by two non-alcoholics. The first real

meeting run by alcoholics took place March 1940 in the Cecil Hotel in

downtown LA. So you might say at that time there were 2 groups and approx.

10 members. Within one year there were 8 groups and approx. 500 members in

the Southern California. By 1945 the AA population grew to 30 groups and

2,000 members. Interviews of early members contribute the growth to three

things: (1) rapid transportation with the scarcity of automobiles owned by

alcoholics still licensed to drive and (2) the rationing of gasoline due to

World War II. (3) 1941 Saturday Evening Post article.



Up until about April 1941, the Friday night meeting was the only meeting

around. Some members would drive 2 hour one way just to attend the meeting

that was held in the Cecil hotel. Keep in mind there were no freeways back

then. Many of these members paid very close attention on how the meeting was

run and after just a few meeting they tried staring meeting in their

hometowns so they would not have to make that drive each week and use up

their rations.



After the Saturday Evening Post article cane out in March 1941, the New York

office forwarded inquires that came in from all over Southern California to

the Cecil Hotel meeting. At the end of the of the meeting each week those

in attendance were ask if any one was from Palm Springs or San Bernardino,

or from this city or that city. If you raised your hand and gave the town

you were from, you were give a stack of letters told to contact these people

from your city and tell them about AA. Almost all held at least one open

meeting in their town to introduce possible alcoholics to AA. As a result

weekly meeting sprang up almost over night.



Hope this helps



Charles from California


0 -1 0 0
2235 corafinch
Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg 2/25/2005 8:50:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "courtautomation" <courtautomation@e...>

wrote:



>

> I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA

> history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am

> generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and

> current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.



With regard to Jung, Swedenborg seems to have increased his respect for modes of

understanding that operate outside of everyday consciousness. Jung's thinking

about

"exceptional experiences" derives in part from the theories of Swedenborg.



In Mel B's book on spiritual roots, New Wine, he does not mention Swedenborg but

he

does write about Jung's theory of synchronicity. I'm not sure if Mel B thinks

that the theory

itself was influential with early AA's, or if it is simply a better explanation

than

"coincidence" for some of the occurances in AA's early years.



Synchronicity is a Jungian theory of acausal connection. Here is what Frank

McLynn, a

Jung biographer, says about the concept:



"In its simplest manifestation, synchronicity involved the coincidence of a

psychic state

with a corresponding and more or less simultaneous external event taking place

outside

the observer's field of perception, at a distance, and only verifiable

afterwards. A famous

example, often cited by Jung, was that of Emanuel Swedenborg. In 1759 he was

staying

with friends in Gothenburg. At 6 PM on a Saturday evening in July he had a

vision of the

great fire that broke out that night in Stockholm. He described the course of

the fire in

detail to his friends, and when couriers arrived from Stockholm on Monday and

Tuesday

with the news,his account was confirmed in every detail. When asked how he had

known,

he replied that the angels had told him."



Immanuel Kant wrote a short book about Swedenborg, Dreams of a Spirit-Seeker,

which

Jung read during the time (in his early career) when he was most interested in

psychic

phenomena. That is apparently where he read the accont about the fire, not

through

reading Swedenborg himself. So it appears that Swedenborg was an influence,

although

minor.


0 -1 0 0
2236 george cleveland
Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/25/2005 11:12:00 PM


Ken,



Probably the most up to date idea of true value would

be in the realm of eBay. They always have a variety of

first editions for sale. Tracking prices over a week

or two would give you a pretty good idea. A true first

first is a pretty significant item. Even more so if it

has the original dust jacket and clutch the pearls

honey if there's a notable signature.



A suggestion would be to put the future of the book to

group conscience with an eye to the traditions and see

what you come up with. Many states have active

archivists who might be able to help.



Early editions of the BB are wonderful things. It's a

tangible link with a past that has given a future to

so many. BUT it IS a THING and a thing of value. Many

big resentments have been spawned over much less.



Good luck!



George



PS-I once got a first fourteenth at a garage sale for

twenty five cents. One of my best scrounging days

ever!





--- Ken WENTZ <ayceeman@msn.com> wrote:



>

> Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First

> edition Big Book would be worth today?

>

> My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine

> condition & may need to have it appraised. Any help

> would be appreciated

>

> Ken W.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>









__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.

http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/


0 -1 0 0
2237 Arkie Koehl
Re: WWII & AA in Calif WWII & AA in Calif 2/26/2005 7:20:00 PM


Thanks, Charles, for the accurate wording ("The first meeting in

Southern California"). "Pass It On" incorrectly states that LA was the

location of first meeting on the "west coast." On November 21st, 1939,

an AA meeting was held in the Clift Hotel in San Francisco. Ray W., a

New York member, was in SF on a business trip, and had made a contact

with Ted. C., an alcoholic resident at the Duboce Park boarding house

of Zilpa Oram. Ms. Oram had heard about AA on the radio (the Heatter

broadcast?) and had written to the NY office in an effort to get some

help for her tenant.



Arkie

Honolulu



On Feb 24, 2005, at 21:16, Charles Knapp wrote:

>

> Hello from rainy California

>

> Here in Southern California W.W.II had an indirect effect on the

> growth of

> AA. The first meeting in Southern California was held December 19,

> 1939 in

> Los Angeles. It was started and run by two non-alcoholics. The first

> real

> meeting run by alcoholics took place March 1940 in the Cecil Hotel in

> downtown LA. So you might say at that time there were 2 groups and

> approx.

> 10 members. Within one year there were 8 groups and approx. 500

> members in

> the Southern California.


0 -1 0 0
2238 John G
Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/27/2005 10:58:00 PM


I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some commentaries on

them.



I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual practices, and

the practices of AA.



Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?



Thanks....



John G.







FYI, here are a few gnostic links:



http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html



http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html



http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8

-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8

-2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2239 Tom Hickcox
As Bill Sees It/3rd Step Prayer As Bill Sees It/3rd Step Prayer 2/27/2005 11:43:00 AM


A lingering mystery for me has been why the editors of As Bill Sees It

changed the word "victory" to "transcendence" on p. 210, which has the

paragraph containing the Third Step Prayer and an edited version of the

following sentence.



Bill warns us in the Foreword, "Because the quotations used were lifted out

of their original context, it has been necessary in the interest of clarity

to edit, and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them," but I do not see a

need for this change of words.



What was the justification for it?



Tommy in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
2240 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/28/2005 11:09:00 AM AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> <mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >

>

> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2241 Arkie Koehl
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/28/2005 3:22:00 PM


On Feb 28, 2005, at 6:09, Ernest Kurtz wrote:



> Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it

> in "") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.



> There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it

> seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of

> identification.  Anyone out there who might put me in email contact

> with an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the

> stories of Islamic AAs?

>

> One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were

> "adapted to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that

> faith to have been able to understand his follow-up.



I duly Googled the site and found this rather detailed rationale for

the deletion of the phrase:



------------------



"Millati Islami Step Five     



5. We admitted to Allah and to ourselves the exact nature of our

wrongs.



 Having had the experience of thoroughly working through the 12 steps

of Alcoholics Anonymous several times, we can say from our own

experience, that we, in Millati Islami, do understand why in Islam,

Muslims are not to go about advertising their faults to other people.



 We have had personal experience and have heard of others who have

shared their personal stories with, what was believed to be a trusted

person, only to later hear some of the most private details of their

life being discussed publicly. And we are well aware of the AA saying

that says we are as sick as our secrets, and this is not without some

validity.



 In Islam, there is no equivalent to the confessional of other faiths.

Or rather, it should be said that we confess our wrongs to and beg for

forgiveness from Allah alone, Who already knows our defects. We also

are required to mend our ways, to repent, and to do good deeds. Our

belief as taught by Rasulillah (the Messenger of God)(pbuh) is that one

sin equals one sin, and we are rewarded several times over for the one

good deed that we do. This is indeed mercy from the only One that can

dispense mercy, Ar-Rahman (Most Merciful), Allah.



 It is also viewed as a good deed for one brother to cover another

brother’s (or sister’s) faults. This does not mean to not share a

guiding word with any of our straying friends. It simply means that we

do not broadcast theirs or our wrongs to anyone. The reason for this is

to not allow justification for doing wrong to grow from having heard of

so and so doing wrong. And then saying “well so and so has not been

struck down dead from his wrong. If he was forgiven, then I will be

forgiven also”



 Of course there is a difficulty with this step, because the Big Book

of Alcoholics Anonymous says on page 72-73 that we must tell someone

our entire life story if we are to stay sober. How can these two

contrary views be reconciled is the question?  I would say with common

sense we have our answer. In our faith of Islam we have brothers and

sisters that we are close to. Or I should say we should make it our

business to get close to the Ummah (community of believers). It is a

command of Allah that we stand together as one unit. There is not much

witnessed of great harmony among the Ummah today because of outside

influences and of varying schools of thought, but as recovering

Muslims, we have no choice but to tighten our ranks. We NEED each

other. We NEED to share our experience and hope with each other. We

NEED to strengthen and understand each other. It is in this way that we

relieve and assist each other, where Allah allows us, in staying clean

and sober. We then fulfill part of our Islamic responsibility and the

command of Allah to stay unified and not allow division to appear in

our ranks.



Under these life and death circumstances of active drug addiction and

the very real need to stay drug-free, there is no one that we should be

closer to, besides Allah and His Messenger (pbuh), than to each

recovering/repentant Millati Islami brother or sister. To share our

experience strength and hope with each other, in Millati Islami, is our

Step Five.



--------



Arkie

Honolulu


0 -1 0 0
2242 Alex H.
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/28/2005 7:10:00 PM


> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some

> commentaries on them.

>

> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual

> practices, and the practices of AA.

>

> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?



No. But I've noticed the same thing.



Another mystical movement that formed around the same time is

called Kabbalah. It is Jewish mysticism. If you follow it you

will soon find that it sounds a lot like AA spiritual

principles. It is also a lot different in a number of ways just

as Gnosticism is different from AA spiritual principles in a

number of critical ways. The reason is that AA spiritual

principles are not a complete spiritual system. They are general

spiritual principles that can be found in any number of

religious disciplines. For instance... try reading the book "9

1/2 Mystics". It is a sort of biography of several contemporary

Jewish mystics who approach mysticism from slightly different

ways but have a common thread.



One of my Jewish buddies got sober outside of AA by going to a

group called Chabad. (They are a Jewish outreach sub-group of

Lubuvitch Chasidim. They are mystics.). Chabad runs a program

for getting off of drugs and alcohol. Not incidentally, Chabad

uses the spiritual principles outlined in Kabbalah (Jewish

mysticism). Brittany Spears and Madonna have been exploring

Kabbalah. [My own view on their spiritual journey deleted].



One should use caution when following mysticism and especially

Kabbalah. As it says in the Big Book, as one follows this

spiritual program one will begin to depend on intuition, but one

should use caution or one can be misled into all sort of absurd

action.



That is truth.



Kabbalah is quite similar is Islamic mysticism I am told.



Regarding the question of why an Islamic 12 step group would

leave out the part in Step 5 about sharing one's character

defects with one other person, I have a pretty good guess. In

Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt

after a month of reflection as to our character defects much

like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes

place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person

is required.



So... it is not the rabbi's business whether you have actually

made the amends or not. It is presumed that G-d knows your heart

and that you are not a liar. Thus, to present yourself as if you

have made amends, presumes that you have reflected properly upon

your character defects and not lied about making amends. To say

that another human being (unconnected to the amends) is required

to attain either reflection or amends, will be viewed as

suspect. After all... isn't G-d powerful enough? Since He *is*

powerful enough, then why is another person (other than the

parties directly involved) required? Well... He is powerful

enough, but at that point (of step 5) we have not yet

established a reliable connection with G-d. (my opinion). We

need someone else as a checkpoint. While I think I am correct in

my opinion, I recognize that other religious people might

disagree and see the requirement of another person in the

process as suggesting that G-d is not all powerful and thus be

tempted to remove that requirement.



Alex H.


0 -1 0 0
2243 Barry Murtaugh
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/28/2005 4:46:00 PM


John and Ernie,



Contact Bart Ehrmann at UNC or Elaine Pagels at Princeton.



They may very well have some sources or guides to the downdrift of

gnostic spirituality into modern times.



Certainly Karen Anderson in several of her works shows how it reveals

itself in strains of sufism and mystic judaism not to mention non

canonical early christian writings.



Barry Murtaugh

Barrington



>

> Hi John,

>

> No, I do not know of any AA connections with gnosticism, but AA lore and

> some of Bill W's comments in the early 1960s suggest that whenever AA

> got into a new area, especially in Asia, and some member explained the

> 12 Steps, the religious leaders of the region would say, "Yes, that is

> what we have always believed and thought." Since many gnostic teachings

> were close to early Christian beliefs, what you say is not surprising.

>

> Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it in

> "") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.

> There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it

> seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of

> identification. Anyone out there who might put me in email contact with

> an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the stories

> of Islamic AAs?

>

> One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were "adapted

> to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that faith

> to have been able to understand his follow-up.

>

> ernie kurtz

>

>

> John G wrote:

>

> >

> > I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some

commentaries on

> > them.

> >

> > I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual

practices, and

> > the practices of AA.

> >

> > Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

> >

> > Thanks....

> >

> > John G.

> >

> >

> >

> > FYI, here are a few gnostic links:

> >

> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

> >

> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html

> >

> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

> >

> >

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8

> > -1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

> >

> >

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8

> > -2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

> > ADVERTISEMENT

> > click here

> >

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cs2c8qa/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grphea\

lth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109672995/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netfl\

ix.com/Default?mqso=60190075
>

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

> >

> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> >

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

> >

> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>



Barry Murtaugh

jbmcmc@voyager.net


0 -1 0 0
2244 Lee Nickerson
Chip Club Chip Club 3/1/2005 11:06:00 AM


Where and when did the "Chip Club" start?


0 -1 0 0
2245 Lee Nickerson
The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/1/2005 11:07:00 AM


When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What

about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?


0 -1 0 0
2246 Jim Blair
Re: Chip Club Chip Club 3/2/2005 2:59:00 AM


Lee asked

Where and when did the "Chip Club" start?



Chips, Medallions and Birthdays



The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of

the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the

history on them.



Sister lgnatia, the nun who helped Dr. Bob get the hospitalization program

started at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron was the first person to use

medallions in Alcoholics Anonymous. She gave the drunks who were leaving St.

Thomas after a five day dry out a Sacred Heart Medallion and instructed them

that the acceptance of the medallion signified a commitment to God, to A.A.

and to recovery and that if they were going to drink, they had a

responsibility to return the medallion to her before drinking.



The sacred heart badges had been used prior to A.A. by the Father Matthew

Temperance Movement of the 1840s and the Pioneers an Irish Temperance

Movement of the 1890s.



The practice of sobriety chips in A.A. started with a Group in Elmira, N.Y.

in 1947 and has grown from there.



The celebration of birthdays came from the Oxford Group where they

celebrated the anniversary of their spiritual rebirth. As we have a problem

with honesty, A.A. chose the anniversary of the date of our last drink.



Early celebrations of birthdays resulted in people getting drunk and Dr.

Harry Tiebout was asked to look at the problem and he commented on this

phenomenon in an articled titled "When the Big "I" Becomes Nobody", (AAGV,

Sept. 65)



"Early on in A.A., I was consulted about a serious problem plaguing the

local group. The practice of celebrating a year's sobriety with a birthday

cake had resulted in a certain number of the members getting drunk within a

short period after the celebration. It seemed apparent that some could not

stand prosperity. I was asked to settle between birthday cakes or no

birthday cakes. Characteristically, I begged off, not from shyness but from

ignorance. Some three or four years later, A.A. furnished me the answer. The

group no longer had such a problem because, as one member said, "We

celebrate still, but a year's sobriety is now a dime a dozen. No one gets

much of a kick out of that anymore."



The AAGV carried many articles on chips and cakes and the following is a

brief summary of some.



Feb. 1948, Why All the Congratulations? "When we start taking bows (even on

anniversaries) we bow ourselves right into the cuspidor."



July, 1948. Group To Give Oscar for Anniversaries.

The Larchmont Group of Larchmont, N.Y. gives a cast bronze camel mounted on

a mahogany base to celebrate 1st., 5th and 10th anniversaries.

"The camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e.,

to live for 24 hours without a drink."



August 1948. The Artesta, N.Mex. Group awards marbles to all members. If you

are caught without your marbles, you are fined 25 cents. This money goes

into the Foundation Fund.



June 1953, We operate a poker chip club in the Portland Group (Maine). We

have poker chips of nine colors of which the white represents the probation

period of one month. If he keeps his white chip for one month he is

presented with a red chip for one month's sobriety.

The chips continue with blue for two months, black for three, green for

four, transparent blue for five, amber for six, transparent purple for nine

months and a transparent clear chip for one year. We have our chips stamped

with gold A.A. letters.

Also at the end of the year and each year thereafter, we present them with a

group birthday card signed by all members present at the meeting.



January 1955, Charlotte, N.C. "When a man takes "The Long Walk" at the end

of a meeting, to pick up a white chip, he is admitting to his fellow men

that he has finally accepted the precepts of A.A. and is beginning his

sobriety. At the end of three months he exchanges his white chip for a red

one. Later, a handsome, translucent chip of amber indicates that this new

member has enjoyed six months of a new way of life. The nine month chip is a

clear seagreen and a blue chip is given for the first year of sobriety. In

some groups a sponsor will present his friend with an engraved silver chip,

at the end of five years clear thinking and clean living.



March 1956, The One Ton Poker Chip. Alton, Illinois. Author gave friend a

chip on his first day eight years ago (1948) and told him to accept it in

the spirit of group membership and that if he wanted to drink to throw the

chip away before starting drinking.



October 1956, Bangor Washington. Article about a woman who sits in a bar to

drink the bartender sees her white chips and asks what it is. She tells him.

He throws her out as he does not want an alcoholic in his bar. She calls

friend.



April 1957, Cape Cod, Mass. Group recognizes 1st, 5th and 15th

anniversaries. Person celebrating leads meeting. Person is presented with a

set of wooden carved plaques with the slogans.



July 1957, New Brunswick, Canada. Birthday Board. Member contributes one

dollar for each year of sobriety.



July 1957, Oregon. Person is asked to speak and is introduced by his or her

sponsor. The wife, mother, sister or other relative brings up a cake. The

Group sings Happy Birthday. The wife gives a two or thee minute talk.





April 1959, Patterson, N.J. People are asked to give "three month pin

talks."



And that's a little bit of info on chips, cakes and medallions.


0 -1 0 0
2247 Jim Blair
Re: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 3:11:00 AM


Lee asked



When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What about

the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?



The following is a letter by Bill W. on the use of the Lord's Prayer in AA.



The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the

International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and

join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first

time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the

Toronto experience.

---------------------------------------------------------



A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord's Prayer At A.A.

Meetings



April 14, 1959

Dear Russ,

Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time out of

the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon type of flu

that has been around here in New York. We are okay now, however, but I did

want to explain my delay.

Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A. meeting.

This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in

the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA. Comes of Age what the

connection of these people in A.A. really was. I think saying the Lord's

Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore

it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us.

Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the

introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering. Also,

it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document.

Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the

arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched. It is

also true that most A.A.s believe in some kind of God and that communication

and strength is obtainable through His grace. Since this is the general

consensus it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the

Lord's Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem

necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to

the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel.

However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join

him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst

that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is

doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress.

So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your letter

made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.

Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the friendship of

you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross one of these days.

Devotedly yours,

Bill Wilson





WGW/ni Mr. Russ

From the A.A. Archives in New York


0 -1 0 0
2248 Robert Stonebraker
RE: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/1/2005 11:02:00 PM


Dear Lee and Group,

The "Lord's Prayer" carried over from the Oxford Group and was used at the

first AA meeting that Clarence Snyder started at Abby Golrick's home; 2345

Stillman Rd, Cleveland Hts., OH, on May 11th, 1939. For verification

please read page 261 of "Dr. Bob And The Good old Timers."



Bob S.











-----Original Message-----

From: Lee Nickerson [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]

Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:08 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer







When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What

about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?





















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2249 righteousthug
Re: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 12:23:00 AM


From - http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabwlordprayer.html



A Letter From Bill W. Regarding The Lord's Prayer In A.A.

From the A.A. Archives in New York







----------------------------------------------------------------------

----------



April 14, 1959

Dear Russ,



Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time

out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon

type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now,

however, but I did want to explain my delay.



Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A.

meeting.



This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were

influential in the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA.

Comes of Age what the connection of these people in A.A. really was.

I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the

close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a

general custom among us.



Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the

introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering.

Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a

Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread

use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems

to be a little farfetched. It is also true that most A.A.s believe in

some kind of God and that communication and strength is obtainable

through His grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only

right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used

in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer

to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent

of completely hiding our light under a bushel.



However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to

join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so.

The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen

to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their

stage of progress.



So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your

letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.



Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the

friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross

one of these days.



Devotedly yours,

Bill Wilson



WGW/ni

Mr. Russ







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Nickerson"

<snowlily@g...> wrote:

>

>

> When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What

> about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?


0 -1 0 0
2250 Bruce Lallier
Re: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 7:34:00 AM


I first remember the holding of hands from the early to mid 70's in Ct.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@gwi.net>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:07 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer





>

>

>

> When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What

> about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2251 Ken WENTZ
Re: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 7:47:00 AM


The practice of saying the " LORDS PRAYER " at the end of the meetings & holding

hands came from the meetings that were held first, at the home of T. Henry &

Clarace Williams in Akron, and at Dr. Bob's house. They would read from the

bible then ( there was no " Big Book " ) and conclude with a prayer they were

all familiar with. From Dr. Bob & the good old -timers & Pass it

on...........................Ken W



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2252 ArtSheehan
RE: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 12:03:00 PM snowlily@gwi.net

Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:08 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer





When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What

about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?























Yahoo! Groups Sponsor







ADVERTISEMENT



<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12c2tn48q/M=298184.6018725.7038619.300117

6/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109821976/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gs

lf/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here







<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grp

health/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=497210766>







_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib

e>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2253 lester112985
1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/2/2005 12:56:00 PM


Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st

printing Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.

Thanks

Lester


0 -1 0 0
2254 gentle_bear
AA geographical membership rates AA geographical membership rates 3/2/2005 5:13:00 PM


Hi Folks,



My recent question re AA membership prompted me to wonder what the rates of

AA membership was in various countries around the world.



I was able to calculate the following.



These ratios are expressed as a percentage of the total population of a

country.



Australia - 0.150%

USA - 0.402%

Canada - 0.297%

New Zealand - 0.095%



Naturally the USA and Canada have high rates as AA started in North America.



The New Zealand membership census is on their website.



The Australian membership is an estimate - 30,000. Don't quote me - its

based on growth from a statistic about 10 years old.



Can anyone add to these figures?



The next question is - How can we explain these differences, if at all?



In Fellowship



Robin F.



Brisbane



Australia.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2255 George Cleveland
Now about sex Now about sex 3/2/2005 10:56:00 PM


Hopefully that message header won't get this thrown into the spam

file.



The third part of the 4th Step Inventory is about our sex conduct. It

is about our CONDUCT, not the number of notches on the bedpost. In the

instructions for the Resentment portion, the alcoholic is asked to

look at their part in the resentment and answer where they were

selfish, dishonest, self seeking and afraid. In the sex inventory, we

are given a huge magnifying glass and asked to answer 9 questions

instead of four.



Anyone who has done this knows what a transforming process it is and

that it is the jumping off place for the start of the spiritual

awakening that the Big Book says is the whole point of the book.



The reading on sex that begins at the bottom of Page 68 appears to be

a practically perfect manifesto of fairness, directness and, to use

the overused, inclusive.



I have searched the archives here and can't find a reference to the

genesis of this piece and what kind of fallout it may have created. I

am sure that nearly 70 years later, the sex reading raises many

hackles.



I greatly appreciate the thoughtful and sometimes intense research and

scholarship that is evident in this group.



Now....about sex?



George Cleveland


0 -1 0 0
2256 Robert Stonebraker
RE: 1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/3/2005 7:35:00 PM


Dear Lester and Group,



One misprint can be found on page 234 where the second and third lines from

the bottom are repeated, e.g.:



". . . . last evening after I left the car and wondered off into . . . "



". . . . last evening after I left the car and wondered off into . . . "

However, I am not sure whether or not the same misprint occurs in later

printings.



Bob S. from Indiana







1



-----Original Message-----

From: lester112985 [mailto:lgother@optonline.net]

Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:56 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors







Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st

printing Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.

Thanks

Lester





















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2257 Robert Stonebraker
Holding hands Holding hands 3/3/2005 8:21:00 PM


Thanks Jim,



Ten years later I was living in Southern California (1975) and the custom of

holding hands was then prevalent at most groups. However, in 1978, I moved

to a mid-sized town, Richmond, Indiana and the practice was not yet in

vogue. But by the early 1980s most of the groups had begun holding hands.

Of course, here I am not talking about the Responsibility Declaration, but

the Lord’s Prayer.



Bob S.



The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the

International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and

join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first

time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the

Toronto experience.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2258 Jim Blair
Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/3/2005 8:21:00 PM


Lester wrote



Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing

Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.



Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.



The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition



1st Edition - 1st Printing

- Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."

- 29 personal stories.

- Price 3.50$.

- Cover is red, only printing in red.

- Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.

- Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.

- Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.

- 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).

- Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.

- P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.

- Published by Works Publishing Company.



1st Edition - 2nd Printing

- Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

- 28 personal stories

- Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.

- Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.

- Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.

- Jacket spine and front flap has print number.

- Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)

- Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.

- P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.

- P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.

- P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People

- P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.

- P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.

- P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.

- P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.

- P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."

- P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.



1st Edition - 3rd Printing

- Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

- Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.

- Cover changed to light blue.

- Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.

- P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.

- P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.

- P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.

- P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.

- P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.

- P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.

- P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.

- P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.

- P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.

- P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.

- P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.

- P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.

- P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.



1st Edition - 4th Printing

- Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

- Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.

- Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.

- P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."

- P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.

- P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."

- P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.

- P152-L02, have been there to has been there.

- P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.

- P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.

- P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.

- P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.

- P398-L10, organized to originally organized.

- P398-L10, members to older members

- P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.

- P398-L16, this book, to this book.

- P398-L16, send money to please send money.



1st Edition - 5th Printing

- Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."

- Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.

- Last Big Book in size.

- Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).

- P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."

- P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.

- P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.

- P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.



1st Edition - 6th Printing

- Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

- Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).

- Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.

- Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).

- P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.

- P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.

- P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).



1st Edition - 7th Printing

- Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

- Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.

- Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

- Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.

- P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.

- P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.

- P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.

- P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."

- P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.

- P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937

- P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.

- P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.

- P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.

- P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.

- P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.

- P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.



1st Edition - 8th Printing

- Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

- Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.

- P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.



1st Edition - 9th Printing

- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

- Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.

- P323-L20, Two years to several years.



1st Edition - 10th Printing

- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

- P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.



1st Edition - 11th Printing

- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

- Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.

- P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

- P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

- P178-L20, Him to HIM.

- P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

- P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding

- P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.



1st Edition - 12th Printing

- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

- Decreased height by 1/16.



1st Edition - 13th Printing

- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

- Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .



1st Edition - 14th Printing

- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

- Reduced in thickness 1/16.



1st Edition - 15th Printing

- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

- Increased in height by 1/16.

- Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.



1st Edition - 16th Printing

- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

- Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.



Last printing of the First Edition.


0 -1 0 0
2259 snowlily
Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/4/2005 10:20:00 AM


Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?



No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:21 PM

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors





>

>

> Lester wrote

>

> Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing

> Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.

>

> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.

>

> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition

>

> 1st Edition - 1st Printing

> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."

> - 29 personal stories.

> - Price 3.50$.

> - Cover is red, only printing in red.

> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.

> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.

> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.

> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).

> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.

> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.

> - Published by Works Publishing Company.

>

> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing

> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - 28 personal stories

> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.

> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.

> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.

> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.

> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)

> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.

> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.

> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.

> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People

> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.

> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.

> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.

> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.

> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."

> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.

>

> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing

> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.

> - Cover changed to light blue.

> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.

> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.

> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.

> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.

> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.

> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.

> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.

> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.

> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.

> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.

> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.

> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.

> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.

> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.

>

> 1st Edition - 4th Printing

> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.

> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.

> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."

> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.

> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."

> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.

> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.

> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.

> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.

> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.

> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.

> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.

> - P398-L10, members to older members

> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.

> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.

> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.

>

> 1st Edition - 5th Printing

> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."

> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.

> - Last Big Book in size.

> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).

> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."

> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.

> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.

> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.

>

> 1st Edition - 6th Printing

> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).

> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.

> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).

> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.

> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.

> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).

>

> 1st Edition - 7th Printing

> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.

> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.

> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.

> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.

> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.

> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."

> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.

> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937

> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.

> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.

> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.

> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.

> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.

> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.

>

> 1st Edition - 8th Printing

> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.

> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

>

> 1st Edition - 9th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.

> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.

>

> 1st Edition - 10th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.

>

> 1st Edition - 11th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.

> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.

> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding

> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.

>

> 1st Edition - 12th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Decreased height by 1/16.

>

> 1st Edition - 13th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .

>

> 1st Edition - 14th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.

>

> 1st Edition - 15th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased in height by 1/16.

> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.

>

> 1st Edition - 16th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.

>

> Last printing of the First Edition.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2260 eze_kiel03
Aldous Huxley Aldous Huxley 3/4/2005 12:22:00 PM


I can find many references to Aldous Huxley's claim that AA was the

greatest social movement of the 20th century, but not the original

source. Where and when did he say or write it?


0 -1 0 0
2261 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Fwd: Lords Prayer Fwd: Lords Prayer 3/4/2005 5:35:00 PM


It must have been either late 1972 or in the beginning of 1973 when someone

first reached out in an attempt to hold my hand at the end of the the A.A.

meeting in Philadelphia PA.



Strange enough, this was the same meeting that I had been going to at

least three years and I still don't remember any discussion on the change in

policy. Prior to that night we had always folded our hands in front of us during

the prayer.



Kilroy W.

4021 Club

Philadelphia PA





_____________________________________________________________

A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com


0 -1 0 0
2262 Jim Blair
Re: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/4/2005 9:04:00 PM


Lester wrote



Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?



I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
2263 Bill Lash
RE: 1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/4/2005 4:32:00 PM


"Lone Endeavor" (no "The" or "A" in the title) was removed after the first

printing. Namaste!

Just

Love,



Barefoot Bill



-----Original Message-----

From: snowlily [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]

Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:20 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors





Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?



No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:21 PM

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors





>

>

> Lester wrote

>

> Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing

> Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.

>

> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.

>

> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition

>

> 1st Edition - 1st Printing

> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."

> - 29 personal stories.

> - Price 3.50$.

> - Cover is red, only printing in red.

> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.

> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.

> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.

> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).

> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.

> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.

> - Published by Works Publishing Company.

>

> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing

> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - 28 personal stories

> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.

> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.

> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.

> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.

> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)

> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.

> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.

> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.

> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People

> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.

> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.

> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.

> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.

> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."

> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.

>

> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing

> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.

> - Cover changed to light blue.

> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.

> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.

> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.

> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.

> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.

> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.

> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.

> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.

> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.

> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.

> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.

> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.

> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.

> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.

>

> 1st Edition - 4th Printing

> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.

> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.

> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."

> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.

> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."

> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.

> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.

> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.

> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.

> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.

> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.

> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.

> - P398-L10, members to older members

> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.

> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.

> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.

>

> 1st Edition - 5th Printing

> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."

> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.

> - Last Big Book in size.

> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).

> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."

> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.

> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.

> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.

>

> 1st Edition - 6th Printing

> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).

> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.

> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).

> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.

> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.

> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).

>

> 1st Edition - 7th Printing

> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.

> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.

> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.

> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.

> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.

> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."

> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.

> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937

> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.

> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.

> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.

> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.

> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.

> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.

>

> 1st Edition - 8th Printing

> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.

> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

>

> 1st Edition - 9th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.

> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.

>

> 1st Edition - 10th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.

>

> 1st Edition - 11th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.

> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.

> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding

> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.

>

> 1st Edition - 12th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Decreased height by 1/16.

>

> 1st Edition - 13th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .

>

> 1st Edition - 14th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.

>

> 1st Edition - 15th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased in height by 1/16.

> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.

>

> 1st Edition - 16th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.

>

> Last printing of the First Edition.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT











----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2264 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Re: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/4/2005 11:43:00 PM


Sorry, I hit the wrong button, sent the beginning of my draft

on Pat C. (Lone Endeavor Story). Here is what i wanter to say.

Pat C. Read the manuscript and got sober. He wrote bill in NY

and the NY group took up a collection and sent Pat a bus ticket

to NY. They wanted to show off the power of the written

message. In the mean time the big book was in its final hours

before going to press. Ruth Hock who was Bill W.'s and Hank

P.'s sect. in there office in ND. rushed to writer Pats Story.

To their heart break, when the bus from Calf. pulled into the

NY station Pat C. was on the floor drunk. It was too late the

book had gone to press and the story had to stay for that

while.

Kilroy W

4021 Cuub

Philadelphia PA





_____________________________________________________________

A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com


0 -1 0 0
2265 Corky Forbes
Re: Fwd: Lords Prayer Fwd: Lords Prayer 3/4/2005 9:35:00 PM


We held hands in our meetings in Tulsa, Oklahoma when I came into the program

May 4,1965.

I don't know when it had become a ritual. There were four groups in Tulsa at

that time.

Corky

----- Original Message -----

From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:35 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Fwd: Lords Prayer







It must have been either late 1972 or in the beginning of 1973 when someone

first reached out in an attempt to hold my hand at the end of the the A.A.

meeting in Philadelphia PA.



Strange enough, this was the same meeting that I had been going to at

least three years and I still don't remember any discussion on the change in

policy. Prior to that night we had always folded our hands in front of us during

the prayer.



Kilroy W.

4021 Club

Philadelphia PA





_____________________________________________________________

A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com









Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT











------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2266 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Re: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/4/2005 11:29:00 PM


The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some how got a

copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)



--- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:



From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story









Lester wrote



Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?



I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.



Jim

















Yahoo! Groups Links



















_____________________________________________________________

A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com


0 -1 0 0
2267 alev101@aol.com
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 3/5/2005 7:12:00 AM


I believe that this comment is untrue.



In Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt

after a month of reflection as to our character defects much

like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes

place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person

is required.



For sins between man and God we, ask God for forgiveness.

For those sins between man and man, we must seek out our man and ask

forgiveness directly.





That is how I explained the 9th step to my parents when I made my formal

direct amends.



Ava

(nice Jewish girl from Brooklyn and sober in AA)



In a message dated 3/1/2005 10:53:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, odat@utj.org

writes:







> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some

> commentaries on them.

>

> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual

> practices, and the practices of AA.

>

> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?



No. But I've noticed the same thing.



Another mystical movement that formed around the same time is

called Kabbalah. It is Jewish mysticism. If you follow it you

will soon find that it sounds a lot like AA spiritual

principles. It is also a lot different in a number of ways just

as Gnosticism is different from AA spiritual principles in a

number of critical ways. The reason is that AA spiritual

principles are not a complete spiritual system. They are general

spiritual principles that can be found in any number of

religious disciplines. For instance... try reading the book "9

1/2 Mystics". It is a sort of biography of several contemporary

Jewish mystics who approach mysticism from slightly different

ways but have a common thread.



One of my Jewish buddies got sober outside of AA by going to a

group called Chabad. (They are a Jewish outreach sub-group of

Lubuvitch Chasidim. They are mystics.). Chabad runs a program

for getting off of drugs and alcohol. Not incidentally, Chabad

uses the spiritual principles outlined in Kabbalah (Jewish

mysticism). Brittany Spears and Madonna have been exploring

Kabbalah. [My own view on their spiritual journey deleted].



One should use caution when following mysticism and especially

Kabbalah. As it says in the Big Book, as one follows this

spiritual program one will begin to depend on intuition, but one

should use caution or one can be misled into all sort of absurd

action.



That is truth.



Kabbalah is quite similar is Islamic mysticism I am told.



Regarding the question of why an Islamic 12 step group would

leave out the part in Step 5 about sharing one's character

defects with one other person, I have a pretty good guess. In

Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt

after a month of reflection as to our character defects much

like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes

place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person

is required.



So... it is not the rabbi's business whether you have actually

made the amends or not. It is presumed that G-d knows your heart

and that you are not a liar. Thus, to present yourself as if you

have made amends, presumes that you have reflected properly upon

your character defects and not lied about making amends. To say

that another human being (unconnected to the amends) is required

to attain either reflection or amends, will be viewed as

suspect. After all... isn't G-d powerful enough? Since He *is*

powerful enough, then why is another person (other than the

parties directly involved) required? Well... He is powerful

enough, but at that point (of step 5) we have not yet

established a reliable connection with G-d. (my opinion). We

need someone else as a checkpoint. While I think I am correct in

my opinion, I recognize that other religious people might

disagree and see the requirement of another person in the

process as suggesting that G-d is not all powerful and thus be

tempted to remove that requirement.



Alex H.













------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->

Give the gift of life to a sick child.

Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'

_Click Here!_ (http://us.click.yahoo.com/3iazvD/6WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM)

--------------------------------------------------------------------~->





Yahoo! Groups Links

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2268 ny-aa@att.net
Lone Endeavor Lone Endeavor 3/5/2005 3:02:00 PM


An exchange of letters with a man in California became "Lone

Endeavor" as the last story of the first printing of the first

edition of the Big Book of "Alcoholics Anonymous." The story

was not included in later printings after the man arrived in

New York more than slightly intoxicated.



Did anyone other than Pat C himself verify that he was sober

for as long as he claimed at the time they decided to include

his "Lone Endeavor" story? His mother got the book manuscript

for him. Were there any letters from her saying Pat was sober?

Did they contact the doctors in the state sanitarium?



His letter said, "Six weeks ago I returned from the sanitarium

and your book was here waiting for me. I read, more pored over

it so as not to miss anything. I thought to myself, yes, this

is the only way. God is my only chance. I have prayed before but

I guess not the right way. I have followed out the suggestions

in the book, am happier at this moment than I have been for years.

I'm sure I have found the solution, thanks to ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS."

This does not include an actual sobriety claim like, "I have not

had any alcohol since that day."



He wrote, "I go down to the sanitarium every week for a check-up

and medicine which they give me, just a tonic, no sedative."

Never mind the no sedative part. In 1939, alcohol was a common

ingredient in what was called a tonic. Just what sort of tonic

was he using?


0 -1 0 0
2269 ArtSheehan
RE: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/6/2005 9:58:00 AM


First Edition Big Book - First Printing



On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the first edition of the book

“Alcoholics Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy (equivalent to

$46 today). The printer, Edward Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told

to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large, bulky volume became

known as the Big Book and the name has stuck ever since. The idea

behind the thick and large paper was to convince the alcoholic he was

getting his money’s worth.



The book had 8 Roman and 400 Arabic numbered pages. “The Doctor’s

Opinion” started as page 1 and the basic text ended at page 174. Ray C

(whose Big Book story is “An Artist’s Concept”) designed the “circus

color” dust jacket (and alternate dust jacket).



The manuscript story of an Akron member “Ace Full - Seven - Eleven”

was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes

made to the first drafts of the Steps and text). 29 personal stories

were included: 10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1 from

the west coast (which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and removed from

the book in the second printing).



One of the stories “An Alcoholic’s Wife” was written by non-alcoholic

Marie B from Akron, OH. Dr Bob’s story was originally titled “The

Doctor’s Nightmare” and later changed to “Dr Bob’s Nightmare.”



First Edition Big Book - Second Printing







In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second

printing of the first edition Big Book. The term “spiritual

experience” was changed to “spiritual awakening” and the term “as the

result of these steps” was changed to “as the result of those steps.”







Appendix II, “Spiritual Experience” was added to the book. This was

done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and

spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns

Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were

of the type that the psychologist William James called the

“educational variety.”







The Herbert Spencer quote was added to Appendix II in the second

edition Big Book. It first appeared in the story “An Artists Concept”

by Ray C (who also designed the Big Book’s dust jacket). The Spencer

quote does not appear to be an accurate attribution. No written work

by Spencer can be found containing the quote.







The story “Lone Endeavor” (of Pat C from CA) was removed. It had been

ghost written by Ruth Hock. Pat, who claimed to have sobered up from a

manuscript copy of the Big Book, was invited to NY shortly after the

book was printed and arrived in NY quite drunk.







Cheers



Arthur



_____



From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com [mailto:kilroy@ceoexpress.com]

Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:29 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story









The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some

how got a copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)



--- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:



From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story









Lester wrote



Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?



I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.



Jim

















Yahoo! Groups Links



















_____________________________________________________________

A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com

















Yahoo! Groups Sponsor







ADVERTISEMENT



<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cibo1l7/M=298184.6018725.7038619.300117

6/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1110179267/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gs

lf/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here







<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grp

health/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=370119679>







_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib

e>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2270 WCompWdsUnl@aol.com
History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. 3/5/2005 10:01:00 PM


Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I

am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in

places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am

interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from

city to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the

"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities.



Thank you.



Larry W.

Atlanta, GA





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2271 Roger Wheatley
Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 3/13/2005 4:03:00 AM


I found this letter dated Feb 1945 which would likely be sent from "Works

Publishing" to the fellowship explaining the paper reduction requirements of the

war effort and the delay. Apparantly we ran out of books at the office waiting

for this delivery. Perhaps as you indicate, it was trimmed down to 5000 copies

to get through the run and catch up on the publishers work.





Box 459 Grand Central Annex



New York 17, New York







February 12, 1945







NEW WAR TIME EDITION OF THE BOOK



ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS







Because of the acute shortage of book paper we have repeatedly, on order of the

War Production Board, reduced the weight of the paper used in the book,

Alcoholics Anonymous.



We have now arrived at the point where because of further reductions in paper we

must sharply cut the overall size of the book by trimming margins to a minimum.

Happily we shall still be able to use the same book plates so the type face will

be as readable as ever.



Practically every publisher has long ago been obliged to make these changes so

we hope that AAs everywhere will understand the necessity for them and be glad

of this small additional contribution to the war effort.



Our printers are a badly overworked firm and though this new edition was

arranged for many months ago, we are told there will be some delay on delivery.

We will be out of books by February 15th and will probably not be able to ship

copies of the new war time edition until after March first, how long after we do

not yet know.



I hope you will all be patient if your orders are delayed somewhat. Please be

sure we shall make shipments the moment we can.







WORKS PUBLISHING INC.



BY



Margaret R. Burger (signed)



Margaret R. Burger

Secretary



Keith Dunn <werdunn_99@yahoo.com> wrote:





Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.

The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing

date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000. The eighth printing

shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests there

are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16

printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of

the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of

the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated

demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but

the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The

book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945. But, taking into

account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact that

the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th

printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and

the resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more

books (and profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay

within government guidelines. Any suggestions as to where to go for

information, or does anyone have any feedback on this?

Love and Service, Keith D



*****

Art, feel free to respond directly, and forward this to anyone who

can be of help. I didn't know if protocol dictated I send this

straight to the "group", or if I could send it to some archivists

directly. I am aware this is pretty "deep." I've done a lot of

research in the archive arena, and have few resources in Nebraska.

Thanks for your help.

















Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Get unlimited calls to



U.S./Canada





---------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2272 Roger Wheatley
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II 3/13/2005 3:41:00 AM


History Lovers and Dolores,

I have the beginnings of a collection on this topic which includes the early

Grapevine column "Mail Call" which is now available on GV digital archives to

any subscriber. Also we had teh opportunity to interview Pappy, reported as the

oldest living member of AA in Belgium. When I asked him through an interpreter

how AA started in Belgium 50 years ago (they celebrated in 2004) he gave credit

to two Irish Soldiers who came over during WWII and stayed on in Belgium

marrying local girls. One of these men 12 stepped Pappy in 1951.

The Frankfurt Group celebrated their 50 year anniverary in 2004 and credited

Servce Members with their origins as well as groups in France. It would be an

interesting project and I am willing to help uncover more history for anyone

capable of piecing it all together.

Dolores, when I move to your neck of the woods this summer, I would like to go

through the local archives and see what we can learn or what leads we can

generate.

Roger



Dolores Rinecker <dollie@t-online.de> wrote:





Hi, I am interested in getting more history about the Servicemen who were

stationed in West Germany right after the WWII. I have put some history

together and am interested in getting more. The first meetings were held in

Frankfurt in 1948. All the early groups were Loner groups. Those men were

very influencial in getting english speaking AA going here on the Continent. I

have put together a short history of the history over here and if you are

interested I can send a copy to you. Bill W. was asked to speak at the

Wiesbaden Round-up in 1962 but "graciosly declined". I am looking for more

history to fill in the empty spaces-years. Hope to hear from you. Yours in

AA Dolores R.











"righteousthug" <righteousthug@dellmail.com> schrieb:

>

>

>

> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the

> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a

> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew

> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I

> think about it.

>

> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an

> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big

> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,

> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then

> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,

> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.

>

> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans

> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry

> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war

> diaspora because of the aviation industry.

>

> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone

> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having

> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell

> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was

> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.

>

> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect

> that WWII had on the spread of AA?

>

> /rt

> 6/14/88

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>













Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT





---------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2273 tflynn96
6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 3/14/2005 11:36:00 AM


If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group

that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot

about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I

can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.

Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.


0 -1 0 0
2274 Robert Stonebraker
RE: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 3/14/2005 2:19:00 PM


There are six "tenets" mentioned on page xvi of our Big Book: "Though he

could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced of

the need for moral inventory, confession of personality defects, restitution

to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the necessity of belief in and

dependence upon God." These were doubtless the basis for the Six Steps

listed in the Story 'He Sold Himself Short." (p.292 - 3rd edition or p.

263 - 4th edition). It is my understanding that the OG had twenty-eight

'tenets,' from which Bill Wilson selected these six.



Bob S., from Indiana



-----Original Message-----

From: tflynn96 [mailto:flynn22896@sbcglobal.net]

Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?







If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group

that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot

about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I

can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.

Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.





















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2275 billyk
RE: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/7/2005 4:08:00 AM


for information.



there is a book put out by dicobe tapes;

Dicobe Tapes

1020 Lincoln Road

Bellevue, NE 68005

Phone: (402) 291-3381

Fax: (402) 292-6148

Email: dicobesales@dicobe.com

http://www.bellevuenebraska.com/audiovideo.html





that is a complete set of the 'stories no longer in print'

as they appeared in the 1st and 2nd editions of the big book.



i have it, read it and found it fascinating.



billyk







--- ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:



>

> First Edition Big Book - First Printing

>

> On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the first edition of the book

> “Alcoholics Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy (equivalent to

> $46 today). The printer, Edward Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told

> to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large, bulky volume became

> known as the Big Book and the name has stuck ever since. The idea

> behind the thick and large paper was to convince the alcoholic he was

> getting his money’s worth.

>

> The book had 8 Roman and 400 Arabic numbered pages. “The Doctor’s

> Opinion” started as page 1 and the basic text ended at page 174. Ray

> C

> (whose Big Book story is “An Artist’s Concept”) designed the “circus

> color” dust jacket (and alternate dust jacket).

>

> The manuscript story of an Akron member “Ace Full - Seven - Eleven”

> was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes

> made to the first drafts of the Steps and text). 29 personal stories

> were included: 10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1

> from

> the west coast (which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and removed from

> the book in the second printing).

>

> One of the stories “An Alcoholic’s Wife” was written by non-alcoholic

> Marie B from Akron, OH. Dr Bob’s story was originally titled “The

> Doctor’s Nightmare” and later changed to “Dr Bob’s Nightmare.”

>

> First Edition Big Book - Second Printing

>

>

>

> In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second

> printing of the first edition Big Book. The term “spiritual

> experience” was changed to “spiritual awakening” and the term “as the

> result of these steps” was changed to “as the result of those steps.”

>

>

>

> Appendix II, “Spiritual Experience” was added to the book. This was

> done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and

> spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns

> Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences

> were

> of the type that the psychologist William James called the

> “educational variety.”

>

>

>

> The Herbert Spencer quote was added to Appendix II in the second

> edition Big Book. It first appeared in the story “An Artists Concept”

> by Ray C (who also designed the Big Book’s dust jacket). The Spencer

> quote does not appear to be an accurate attribution. No written work

> by Spencer can be found containing the quote.

>

>

>

> The story “Lone Endeavor” (of Pat C from CA) was removed. It had been

> ghost written by Ruth Hock. Pat, who claimed to have sobered up from

> a

> manuscript copy of the Big Book, was invited to NY shortly after the

> book was printed and arrived in NY quite drunk.

>

>

>

> Cheers

>

> Arthur

>

> _____

>

> From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com [mailto:kilroy@ceoexpress.com]

> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:29 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story

>

>

>

>

> The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some

> how got a copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)

>

> --- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

>

> From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story

>

>

>

>

> Lester wrote

>

> Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

>

> I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

>

> Jim

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _____________________________________________________________

> A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

>

>

>

> ADVERTISEMENT

>

>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cibo1l7/M=298184.6018725.7038619.300117

>

6/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1110179267/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gs

> lf/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here

>

>

>

>

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grp

> health/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=370119679>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

> * To visit your group on the web, go to:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

>

> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib

> e>

>

> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

> --------------------~-->

> Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's Research

> Hospital's

> 'Thanks & Giving.'

> http://us.click.yahoo.com/0iazvD/5WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM

>

--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com


0 -1 0 0
2276 charlieindallas
Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/7/2005 3:38:00 AM


Gentlemen:



In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that

alcoholism is not a true allergy".



Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find

anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.



I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books

written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another

title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.



Grandaddy



Charles Rutherford

AKA Charlie "Brown"

The Lambda Group



Residence 119

5109 Cedar Springs Road

Dallas, TX 75235-8723

214-528-1553


0 -1 0 0
2277 charlieindallas
Re: old preamble old preamble 3/7/2005 3:45:00 AM


I am sure that many people have written to inform you that this is

the "TEXAS PREAMBLE". The ending few words are a litle fifferent

from the way I remember it. Check with the Dallas Central Office.-



-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Nickerson" <dcm19@m...>

wrote:

> Does anyone know the origin of this?

>

> "We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we

are

> powerless over alcohol and unable to do anything about it without

> the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel that each

> person's religious views, if any are his own affair. The simple

> purpose of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to show what may

> be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves

> regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be.

>

> In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do

> to that Power, we must at first apply ourselves with some

diligence.

> By often repeating these acts, they become habitual and the help

> rendered becomes natural to us.

>

> We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from

a

> serious illness for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may

be

> the result of an allergy which makes us different from other

people.

> It has never been by any treatment with which we are familiar,

> permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute

> abstinence, the second meaning of A. A.

>

> There are no dues or fees. The only requirement for membership is

a

> desire to stop drinking. Each member squares his debt by helping

> others to recover.

>

> An Alcohoiics Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application

and

> adherence to the A. A. program has forsworn the use of any and all

> alcoholic beverage in any form. The moment he takes so much as one

> drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other alcoholic beverage he

> automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous

> A.A. is not interested In sobering up drunks who are not sincere

in

> their desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers. we

> offer our experience only to those who want it.

>

> We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and on which we

> can join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail

who

> has thoroughly followed our program. Those who do not recover are

> people who will not or simply cannot give themselves to this

simple

> program. Now you may like this program or you may not, but the

fact

> remains, it works. It is our only chance to recover.

>

> There is a vast amount of fun in the A.A. fellowship. Some people

> might be shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity but just

> underneath there lies a deadly earnestness and a full realization

> that we must put first things first and with each of us the first

> thing is our alcoholic problem. To drink is to die. Faith must

work

> twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we perish.

>

> In order to set our tone for this meeting I ask that we bow our

> heads in a few moments of silent prayer and meditation.

>

> I wish to remind you that whatever is said at this meeting

expresses

> our own individual opinion as of today and as of up to this

moment.

> We do not speak for A.A. as a whole and you are free to agree or

> disagree as you see fit, in fact. it is suggested that you pay no

> attention to anything which might not he reconcilied with what is

in

> the A. A. Big Book.

>

> If vou dont have a Big Book. it's time you bought you one. Read

it.

> study it, live with it, loan it, scatter it, and then learn from

it

> what it means to be an A.A."


0 -1 0 0
2278 ny-aa@att.net
Re: History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. 3/6/2005 9:43:00 PM


For the city by city spread of A.A. for 1944 thru 1948,

check the archives of this AA History Lovers forum like:



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messagesearch/1451?query=gr\

apevine%20circuit%20tcumming




That is a series of monthly "News Circuit" articles from the

AA Grapevine. If you subscribe to the AA Grapevine Archives,

you can pull up the same articles there.


0 -1 0 0
2279 Arkie Koehl
Re: History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. 3/6/2005 9:22:00 PM


Interesting project, Larry.



I'm not sure if your thesis is that AA tends to spread according to

certain patterns? If that is so, you might be interested in the Havana

and Beijing examples, cases with which I'm directly familiar.



The first AA meeting in Cuba took place in the Vedado neighborhood of

Havana in January, 1993. Within two years there were several more

groups in various sections of Havana. In addition to the usual reasons

for growth (word of mouth, resentments), growth was accelerated in this

case by the sorry state of public transportation in Havana at that

time, a result of the loss of Soviet fuel subsidies. Travel was

principally by bicycle, and burdensome if you lived more than a couple

of miles from a meeting. I'm told this difficulty was a major factor in

new group formation.



Beijing's first Chinese (as against ex-patriate) meetings were held in

the An Ding Hospital among current and former inpatients, in 2001. The

meetings were tolerated by the authorities, despite a dislike of

"spiritual programs," and the members were given to believe that

meetings outside of the hospital would be frowned upon. However, when

the SARS epidemic struck in 2003, the hospital was quarantined and the

AA group was freed up to seek other venues. There are now several

groups around Beijing, I believe.



Arkie Koehl

Honolulu





On Mar 5, 2005, at 22:01, WCompWdsUnl@aol.com wrote:



>

> Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, 

> chronologically?  I

> am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and  founding of

> AA, in

> places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron  and New

> York.  I am

> interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of  this fellowship,

> from

> city to city.  I am hoping I can get as complete a  list as possible,

> during the

> "flying blind period of the founding of groups, and  in what cities. 

>

> Thank you. 

>

> Larry  W.

> Atlanta,  GA


0 -1 0 0
2280 Glenn Chesnut
Dates at which AA was started in specific cities Dates at which AA was started in specific cities 3/14/2005 3:44:00 PM


Larry W. (Atlanta GA) wrote in asking:



"Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I am

trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in places

all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am

interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from city

to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the

"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities."



Several people have written in responding to this question. To sum up what they

said (so we don't have so many messages), one person wrote in saying that there

is a book by Bob Pearson (with which I am unfamiliar) giving information on

this. It was pointed out that there are timelines at:



http://archivesinternational.org/



And (from the West Baltimore Group)at:



http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/chronology_of_aa_groups.htm



http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/times.htm



None of these seem to give the kind of detailed list that Larry is really

looking for, where it talks about the date at which AA was founded in various

specific cities around the U.S. (and around the world), and has all this

information gathered together in one place.



There is also Archie M's timeline, which Arthur S. has been involved with, but

about which I do not know the details.



At one point, Nancy Olson was posting in the AAHistoryLovers, every month, a

list of important dates in AA history: events that had happened during that

month in previous years. Nancy did in fact have the dates at which the first AA

groups were formed in a number of cities. I think that this would be the best

list for Larry W.'s purposes.



Messages 209, 212, 216, 218, and 590 are on this topic. But I cannot find

anywhere in the list of past messages, any of those monthly date lists that

Nancy put together. I do hope that no one went through and deleted those

messages.



Am I looking in the wrong place? Are Nancy's monthly date lists still there

among the past postings?



There are articles on the internet talking about AA in individual cities.

Detroit, for example, has a nice website. I have been trying to assemble this

kind of material on Indiana AA history at http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html

giving the founding dates in cities such as Evansville, Indianapolis, Fort

Wayne, South Bend, Muncie, Anderson, and so on. But that's just Indiana, and

Larry wants a list that includes everyplace that AA has spread.



So once again, does anybody know where Larry can find, in one place, a list of

when AA was founded in specific cities. None of the date lists and timelines

that have been sent in so far, seem to me to give what Larry is actually looking

for.



G.C.















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2281 jst4tdy
Re: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 3/13/2005 2:55:00 PM


Hi, on page 292 of the third edition Big Book you will find the six tenants

of the Oxford group. Bill M.

.

----- Original Message -----

From: "tflynn96" <flynn22896@sbcglobal.net>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:36 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?





>

>

>

> If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group

> that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot

> about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I

> can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.

> Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2282 ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>
Re: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/14/2005 2:59:00 PM


Hey billyk and Group,

Better yet, and more appropriate. for all the personal stories removed from all

three Editions of Alcoholics Anonymous, order Experience, Strength, and Hope

from AAWS. There is much more archived there, including the early segments "And

Now We Are..."

Many AAs try to support the Fellowship by purchasing Conference-approved

literature---imagine that!

rickt



----- Original Message -----

From: "billyk" <billyk3@yahoo.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:08 AM

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story





>

>

> for information.

> there is a book put out by dicobe tapes;

> Dicobe Tapes

> that is a complete set of the 'stories no longer in print'

> as they appeared in the 1st and 2nd editions of the big book.

> i have it, read it and found it fascinating.

> billyk

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2283 Billlwhite@AOL.COM
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/14/2005 11:28:00 AM


Charles,



Dr. William Silkworth presented his allergy theory of alcoholism to

Bill W. (during Bill's stay in Towns Hospital in 1934), elaborated on this

theory in two articles in the late 1930s, and restated this theory in The

Doctors

Opinion in 1939.

The greatest elaboration of this concept is in: Silkworth, W. (1937).

Alcoholism as a Manifestation of Allergy. Medical Record, 145:249-251. Here are

a

few representative quotes:



"...true alcoholism is a manifestation of allergy."

"...true alcoholism is an allergic state, the result of gradually

increasing sensitization by alcohol over a more or less extended period of

time."

"...compares to hay fever in terms of progressive exposure and then

full emergence of disease"

"The patient can not use alcohol at all for physiological reasons. He

must understand and accept the situation as a law of nature operating

inexorably. Once he has fully and intelligently grasped the facts of the matter

he

will shape his policy accordingly."



The allergy theory gained little credence in the larger medical

community, although two references are worth noting. Robert Seliger used

allergy as

a metaphor to describe the alcoholic's "psychobiological sensitivity" to

alcohol in his 1937 article, The Problem of the Alcoholic in the Community

(American Journal of Psychiatry 95(3):701-716), and the psychiatrist Edward

Strecker

and the lay alcoholism therapist Francis Chambers spoke of a "psychic allergy

to alcohol" in their 1938 book, Alcohol: One Man's Meat.

During the mid-1940s, the allergy theory was under scientific attack.

I suspect the "our friends" reference in Living Sober is to opinions

expressed by Howard Haggard and E.M. Jellinek of the Yale Center of Alcohol

Studies.

Haggard published the most definitive critique of the allergy theory (Haggard,

H. (1944). Critique of the Concept of the Allergic Nature of Alcohol

Addiction. Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, 5:233-241.) He reviewed

the

available scientific evidence and concluded that there was no scientific

foundation for the idea of an allergy that creates a biologically abnormal

response to

alcohol among alcoholics.



Hope this helps.

Bill White



In a message dated 3/14/2005 2:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,

chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net writes:



> Subj: [AAHistoryLovers] Allergy theory

> Date: 3/14/2005 2:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time

> From: chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net

> Reply-to: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Sent from the Internet

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Gentlemen:

>

> In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that

> alcoholism is not a true allergy".

>

> Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find

> anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.

>

> I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books

> written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another

> title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.

>

> Grandaddy

>

> Charles Rutherford

> AKA Charlie "Brown"

> The Lambda Group

>

> Residence 119

> 5109 Cedar Springs Road

> Dallas, TX 75235-8723

> 214-528-1553

>

>

>

>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2284 Cloydg
Re: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 3/14/2005 4:58:00 PM


Does anyone know whether or not Dr. Bob and Bill W. did their steps over

after writing chapter 5? It's my understanding that shortly after Dr. Bob

quit drinking on June10, 1935. He and Bill did their steps together over a

few hours using the 6 tenents. Any information would be appreciated!



Love and service, Clyde G.


0 -1 0 0
2285 ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>
Re: Dates at which AA was started in specific cities Dates at which AA was started in specific cities 3/15/2005 3:44:00 AM


I need to inform the group that Bob Pearson's AA history book was much more

about the history of the General Service Office than specific growth of

selected cities and AA "Chapters." In my own view of the draft manuscript,

the scope of specific cities' growth was not covered extremely well in it. I

learned a great deal about the GSO relation to the General Service

Conference, and Bob P. did write about trends in AA

with a keen insight.



His book was never published, but was severely compromised from photocopying by

1988s Delegates, which means that there are unauthorized copies of it floating

around.



Here are some facts, worthy of further on-site study at the AA Archives at

GSO. There is no better access that I know of outside of in-person, approved

research. Write and call first!



The 1940s Alcoholic Foundation Office described our growth as taking hold in

"Chapters" (cities) and "Sections" (a number of Groups close to each other

in different sections of states or counties, such as, the Long Island

section, the northwest Illinois section, the New England section, etc.). At

Bill+Lois' home in Katonah, NY (Bedford Hills), Bill's writing studio has a

1950s US map with many pins placed where AA Chapters flourished. It is

current to around 1960 and was moved from one of the GSOs to his home and

the "Wit's End" studio ledge.



The most accurate resource of original dates. locations, and growth is the

record of the AA Directories, published every six months beginning in 1940.

Towns, cities, membership numbers, group secretaries names and addresses,

group addresses (PO boxes), telephone numbers, and even semi-annual group

contributions are recorded from registered Groups.



Group membership numbers and contributions are no longer presented in the AA

Directories published today, but the earliest records are still being

researched through the AA Archives in NYC.



Yours in fellowship,

Rick T., Illinois





----- Original Message -----

From: "Glenn Chesnut" <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

To: "AAHistoryLovers group" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:44 PM


0 -1 0 0
2286 ArtSheehan
RE: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/15/2005 12:58:00 AM


Actually there are no "6 tenets" mentioned on page xvi of

the Big Book. What it states is:



"From this doctor, the broker had learned the grave nature of

alcoholism. Though he could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford

Groups, he was convinced of the need for moral inventory, confession

of personality defects, restitution to those harmed, helpfulness to

others, and the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."



Those "tenets" only add up to 5.



Core principles of the Oxford Group consisted of: the "4 absolutes" of

honesty, unselfishness, purity and love; the "5 C's" of confidence,

confession, conviction, conversion and continuance; and the "5

procedures" of: 1) Give in to God, 2) Listen to God's direction, 3)

Check guidance, 4) Restitution and 5) Sharing for witness and

confession. The OG gave AA the term "sharing." They were also strong

advocates of one member working with another. Dr Bob wrote that this

was a key part of the message carried to him by Bill W when they first

met.



Prior to the writing of the Big Book, the recovery program consisted

of 6 steps passed on to new members by word of mouth. There are 4

differing versions of the 6 steps recorded in AA Literature. They can

be found in the books "The Language of the Heart" (pg 200), "AA Comes

of Age" (pg 160), "Pass It On" (pg 197), the Big Book Pioneer story

"He Sold Himself Short" (pg 292 - 3rd ed, pg 263 - 4th ed) and in the

pamphlet "Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W, Co-Founder of

Alcoholics Anonymous" (pg 8).



Sometimes reference is made to the "6 steps of the Oxford Group." This

is not accurate. The OG did not have any Steps (or "6 tenets" per se).

The alcoholic members of the Akron and New York groups (sometimes

called the "alcoholic squad") developed the "word-of-mouth" versions

of the early 6 steps.



The book "Not God" in its extensive collection of end notes (pg 331,

end note 32) states "AA legend has it that these six steps derived

directly from the OG; this is simply wrong."



In a July 1953 Grapevine Article titled "A Fragment of History: Origin

of the Twelve Steps" Bill W wrote:



". the main channels of inspiration for our Steps were three in number

- the Oxford Groups, Dr William D Silkworth of Towns Hospital and the

famed psychologist, William James, called by some the father of modern

psychology."



"During the next three years after Dr Bob's recovery our growing

groups at Akron, New York and Cleveland evolved the so-called

word-of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form

a society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our

principles something like this:



1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol.



2. We got honest with ourselves.



3. We got honest with another person, in confidence.



4. We made amends for harms done others.



5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or

money.



6. We prayed to God to help us to do these things as best we could.



Though these principles were advocated according to the whim or liking

of each of us, and though in Akron and Cleveland they still stuck by

the OG absolutes of honesty, purity, unselfishness and love, this was

the gist of our message to incoming alcoholics up to 1939, when our

present Twelve Steps were put to paper."



In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 160) Bill wrote: "Since Ebby's visit to me in

the fall of 1934, we had gradually evolved what we called "the

word-of-mouth program". Most of the basic ideas had come from the

Oxford Groups, William James and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to

considerable variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent

procedure, which comprised six steps. These were approximately as

follows:



1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over

alcohol.



2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.



3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person

in confidence.



4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our

drinking.



5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward

in money or prestige



6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to

practice these precepts."



Compare the previous two versions with the version below stated by

Bill in an April 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society on Alcoholism.

It illustrates the ways variances can enter into a "word-of-mouth"

program. In describing the visit made by Ebby T to his home, Bill

wrote:



"Next Ebby enumerated the principles he had learned from the Oxford

Group. In substance here they are as my friend applied them to himself

in 1934:



1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to manage his own life.



2. He became honest with himself as never before; made an

"examination of conscience."



3. He made a rigorous confession of his personal defects and

thus quit living alone with his problems.



4. He surveyed his distorted relations with other people,

visiting them to make what amends he could.



5. He resolved to devote himself to helping others in need,

without the usual demands for personal prestige or material gain.



6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for his life and the

help to practice these principles of conduct at all times."



AA's group number one, in Akron, OH (and later other groups in the

mid-West) were more closely aligned with the OG movement and stayed a

part of the OG until 1939 (the NY group left the OG in 1937). In his

Big Book story "He Sold Himself Short" Earl T (pioneer AA in Chicago)

records a version of the 6 steps used in Akron at the time. Dr. Bob

was his sponsor. The description by Earl varies from the versions used

in New York and is a much more orthodox portrayal of the Oxford

Group's influence:



1. Complete deflation.



2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power.



3. Moral inventory.



4. Confession.



5. Restitution.



6. Continued work with other alcoholics.



Although semantic variances exist, the substance is all the same.



Cheers



Arthur



_____



From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]

Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:19 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?









There are six "tenets" mentioned on page xvi of our Big Book: "Though

he

could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced

of

the need for moral inventory, confession of personality defects,

restitution

to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the necessity of belief in

and

dependence upon God." These were doubtless the basis for the Six

Steps

listed in the Story 'He Sold Himself Short." (p.292 - 3rd edition or

p.

263 - 4th edition). It is my understanding that the OG had

twenty-eight

'tenets,' from which Bill Wilson selected these six.



Bob S., from Indiana



-----Original Message-----

From: tflynn96 [mailto:flynn22896@sbcglobal.net]

Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?







If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group

that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot

about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I

can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.

Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.





















Yahoo! Groups Links

































Yahoo! Groups Sponsor







ADVERTISEMENT



<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12c9af3ks/M=298184.6018725.7038619.300117

6/D=grphealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1110914524/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gs

lf/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here







<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grp

health/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=337375357>







_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib

e>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2287 kyyank@aol.com
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/14/2005 5:38:00 PM


There are also some additional quotes and references in Silkworth, The Little

Doctor Who Loved Drunks, Hazelden Publishing, 2002, Mitchel





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2288 Ernest Kurtz
Re: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/14/2005 6:06:00 PM


The best book on the Oxford Group remains Walter Houston Clark's, *The

Oxford Group: Its History and Significance.* You should be able to

find it in any good library. It is a bit expensive on the used book

sites, but remains from preferable to anything by more recent authors,

especially OG insiders.


0 -1 0 0
2289 John G
"Tail of a Comet," was "6 tenets of the Oxford Group? "Tail of a Comet," was "6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/15/2005 9:53:00 PM


Any thoughts about Garth Lean's Frank Buchman biography, "On the Tail of a

Comet?" I'm reading it now, and enjoying it very much, though his quick

chronology on the history of AA founding seems somewhat inaccurate.



John G.



-----Original Message-----

From: Ernest Kurtz [mailto:kurtzern@umich.edu]

Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:06 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?









The best book on the Oxford Group remains Walter Houston Clark's, *The

Oxford Group: Its History and Significance.* You should be able to

find it in any good library. It is a bit expensive on the used book

sites, but remains from preferable to anything by more recent authors,

especially OG insiders.


0 -1 0 0
2290 cck
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/16/2005 1:12:00 AM


charlieindallas <chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



Gentlemen:



In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that

alcoholism is not a true allergy".



Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find

anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.



I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books

written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another

title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.



Grandaddy



Charles Rutherford

AKA Charlie "Brown"

The Lambda Group



Residence 119

5109 Cedar Springs Road

Dallas, TX 75235-8723

214-528-1553















Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT





---------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.









---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2291 Naomi Blankenship
Nancy O. in hospital Nancy O. in hospital 3/16/2005 1:00:00 PM


Nancy was taken to Mary Washington Hospital on Friday the 11th of

March after a fall. Possible broken leg, maybe hip also. I am

unaware of more details at this time.



Naomi



=========================================

From G.C. (South Bend)



The latest information I have is that both her leg and hip were broken, but that

the doctors decided they would not try to operate, because her heart is so weak.

So she has to stay in bed lying down, and they are giving her massive pain

killers and trying to keep her as comfortable as possible. But she is still in

a lot of pain. I think we are all aware that there is no good prognosis at this

point.



I don't have any other information past this point. She is in Virginia and I am

in Indiana, so I am too far distant to have detailed information. This most

recent information I have came via telephone from Lori, an AA friend of hers in

Frederickburg, around noon today (Wednesday).



Nancy can't handle receiving messages at this point. She's drifting in and out,

and wouldn't be able to understand them.



I will post additional information as I receive it. Since there are over a

thousand members of the AAHistoryLovers, I won't be able to respond to

individual emails on this -- I apologize in advance, but there would be hundreds

I'm sure, because we all loved her so much.



I'm very sorry to have to pass this news along. We just need to pray for her at

this point. She is in the Lord's hands, and he will be good to her.


0 -1 0 0
2292 MarionORedstone@aol.com
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/16/2005 9:32:00 AM


Not God is now published under the name "The Story"



Marion O. Redstone, Atty.

Indianapolis, Indiana





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2293 Glenn Chesnut
Dates when AA was established in individual cities Dates when AA was established in individual cities 3/16/2005 2:13:00 PM


Larry W. (Atlanta GA) wrote in asking:



"Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I am

trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in places

all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am

interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from city

to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the

"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities."



Nancy Olson once had a list put together with a lot of these dates, but the list

seems to have disappeared. She got a lot of her dates from pages on the website

put together by Doug B. (Riverside, California), beginning with:



http://www.aahistory.com/jan.html



It took Nancy a lot of work to cull out the dates she actually needed, but

Doug's date list represents a lot of really good research. It doesn't give every

city in the world, but it is the closest thing I have found so far to what Larry

W. was asking for.



It would be a really good piece of service work if someone put together a list

like the one Larry W. wants. Looking at Doug's list would be the first thing

someone would want to do in assembling such a list.



The next thing a person would want to do, would be to look at what "t" has

assembled:



This is a series of postings which tcumming (Denton TX) sent in to the

AAHistoryLovers, starting with post 1183 [Metropolitan Circuit, June 44] posted

on 8/2/03 and ending with post 1450 [New Groups, Aug 48] posted on 11/2/03. This

is material from the Grapevine.The New Groups columns will probably be easiest

to pull the info from ... then the Metropolitan Circuit and News Circuit columns

will require a bit more work to pull out names of groups mentioned that were

already in existence [or somehow slid by a New Groups mention].



To look at these messages, call up

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages/ and there will be

a place to type in the number of the particular message you want to see, marked

Msg #.



You will be able to pick them out of the list of messages easily, because they

will all have been posted by tcumming.



http://archivesinternational.org/AI/Documents/pdf/groups.pdf gives a list of

the first 22 cities where AA groups were established, although not the date of

the first AA meeting held there. That is very useful information though.



Somebody putting a good list together would need to search on the internet for

the AA websites for specific cities, like Detroit. Some of them have some

historical information on there, including sometimes the date at which the first

AA group was founded in that city.



I think it would also be useful to include a short timeline which was sent to me

by "t" (Denton TX), because there are some dates on that list that would need to

be included:



======================================



First AA Locations (many had more than one group by the end of 1940 )



Akron June 10, 1935 - Dr. Bob has last drink (some say it may have been June 17,

based on date of medical convention he attended.) ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS FOUNDED



Nov-Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group.



Meetings moved from T.Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members

homes.



Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.



New York Fall & Winter 1935 - Bill back in New York. Begin to hold meetings at

182 Clinton St. Tuesday nights. Hank P and Fitz M get sober.



1937 - Bill and the New York alcoholics split from the Oxford Group. Among

residents at Clinton St. were Ebby T., Oscar V., Russell R., Bill C., Florence

R.



June 18, 1940 - Meeting held in first 'AA clubhouse', at 334½ W. 24th St, NYC.

Bert T. & Horace C. guarantee rent for building.



Washington DC 1937 - Fitz M. was spending much of his time trying to get AA

started in Washington, by ... fall of 1939 - the nucleus of a small group had

been established. Joined by Hardin C., Bill A. and Florence R



Cleveland May 11, 1939 - The first group to officially call itself Alcoholics

Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland, OH - old Borton Group (?). 1st

group to have no Oxford Group connection.



Dec 1940 - A.A. Cleveland has about 30 groups.



Toledo summer 1939 - Charles ("C.J.") K. & Eddie B. 12 stepped Duke P. Toledo,

both were in state insane asylum, Toledo, on voluntary commitments, had read Big

Book manuscript and got out. Sept 1940 - AA group started in Toledo, Duke P &

others started it.



Chicago Sept 1939 - group started by Earl T in Chicago/Evanston. The first

meeting held outside the Chicago Chapter was located in Sterling, Illinois, on a

March Wednesday night in 1943 at the home of Ken S.



San Francisco November 1939 - (from correspondence & no other info provided)



Rockland State Hospital Dec 1939 - First AA group in mental institution,

Rockland State Hospital, NY.



Los Angeles Dec 1939 - 1st home meeting Los Angeles Kaye M.'s house



Detroit & Youngstown 1939 - Meetings being held in Detroit. Archie T. &

nonalcoholic friend Sarah Klein helped start; expanded into Youngstown.



St. Louis 1939 - Father Ed Dowling responsible founding A.A. St. Louis



Greenwich Connecticut 1939 - Marty M pioneered group at Blythwood Sanitarium



Philadelphia Feb 1940 - Jimmy B. moved there & started group



Houston April 1, 1940 - started by Larry J. of Houston, who wrote "The Texas

Prayer". He is also said to have written the "Texas Preamble". Additionally, he

wrote a series of articles for a Houston Paper which were collected and

reprinted as the first AA pamphlet/booklet distributed by the New York office.



Little Rock April 19, 1940 - Little Rock, Arkansas group was formed. First 'mail

order' group.



Evansville, Indiana April or May 1940 - met in J[ames] D. H.'s home, 420 South

Denby Street. (from correspondence)



Richmond, Va June 6, 1940 - AA group founded in Richmond, Virginia.



Baltimore June 13, 1940 - Jimmy B helped Jim R start group in Baltimore.



Indianapolis October 28, 1940 - Doherty S credited with starting AA in

Indianapolis.



Ashtabula, Ohio Dec 1940 - group started Ashtabula, Ohio due to Plain Dealer

articles.



Boston 1940 - Paddy K. founded A.A. Boston



High Watch Farm 1940 - 1st A.A. oriented drying facility 'High Watch Farm' in

Kent, Connecticut.



_________________ Added Information _________________



In an October 1, 1940 report to the Trustees, Bill W. estimated the A.A.

membership as follows:



Akron, Ohio 200



Jackson, Mich. 15



Baltimore, Md. 12



Little Rock, Ark. 27



Camden, NJ. 5



Los Angeles, Cal. 100



Chicago, Ill. 100



New York City 150



Cleveland, Ohio 450



Philadelphia, Pa 75



Coldwater, Mich. 8



Richmond, Va. 20



Dayton, Ohio 6



San Francisco, Cal. 15



Detroit, Mich. 30



Toledo, Ohio 6



Evansville, Ind. 24



Washington DC 100



Greenwich, Conn. 25



Waunakee, Wis. 20



Houston, Texas 30



Youngstown, Ohio 15



22 Cities 1433 Total



======================================















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2294 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/16/2005 3:39:00 PM


Please. may I try to clear up this confusion. Not-God was first

published in 1979. Sometime around 1985, in an effort to pre-empt Nan

Robertson's coming book on AA, Hazelden arranged with another publisher

to put out a somewhat abridged version under the title "AA: The Story."

It never did well, deservedly.



In 1991, Hazelden re-issued Not-God under its original title and with

all the original material (including the infamous notes) plus an

"appendix" taking the story from Bill W's death in 1971 to the

anniversary of 1985. That edition, in paperback and with a dark blue

cover, is still in print. In my experience, it seems easier to purchase

from Amazon than from Hazelden. Search under the title -- Not-God -- or

under my name.



Thanks.



Ernest Kurtz





MarionORedstone@aol.com wrote:



>

> Not God is now published under the name "The Story"

>

> Marion O. Redstone, Atty.

> Indianapolis, Indiana

>


0 -1 0 0
2295 Tom Hickcox
RE: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/16/2005 4:06:00 PM


To complement the information Arthur posted on 3/14/05, this is from a

footnote, #2, on page 206 of the book Pass It On:



In later years, some A.A. members referred to this procedure as the six

steps of the Oxford Group. Rev. T. Willard Hunter, who spent 18 years in

full-time staff positions for the Oxford Group and M.R.A., said, "I never

once saw or heard anything like the Six Tenets. It would be impossible to

find them in any Oxford Group - M.R.A. literature. I think they must have

been written by someone else under some form of misapprehension."



We may be seeing an example of the fact that oral history passed down over

the years is often inaccurate if not wrong.



Tommy in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
2296 mojo@halfaworldaway.org
More info on Helen Wynn? More info on Helen Wynn? 3/16/2005 5:13:00 PM


Googling Helen Wynn doesn't get me much. Can anyone point me to the

best sources for more info? Thanks!


0 -1 0 0
2297 saturntad
Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism" Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism" 3/17/2005 11:05:00 AM


I need help finding out who some of the characters are, that are

referred to in chapter 3 of the Big Book, "More About Alcoholism."



1. On page 32, 2nd paragraph, "A man of thirty". Who was this man?

2. On page 35, 2nd paragraph, ... a friend we shall call Jim. Who

was this man?

3. On page 39, 2nd paragraph, "Fred is a partner...". Who was this

man?



Thank you!


0 -1 0 0
2298 David Grant
Re: More info on Helen Wynn? More info on Helen Wynn? 3/17/2005 6:02:00 PM


There is quite a bit of content about Helen in "Bill W. by Francis

Hartigan."



Cheers,



David G.









----- Original Message -----

From: <mojo@halfaworldaway.org>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 5:13 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] More info on Helen Wynn?





>

>

>

> Googling Helen Wynn doesn't get me much. Can anyone point me to the

> best sources for more info? Thanks!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2299 Robert Stonebraker
National Meeting Directories National Meeting Directories 3/17/2005 3:37:00 PM


Dear AA history Lovers Group,



While reflecting on my 1951 AA World Group Directory I began to wonder when

the very first NATIONAL MEETING directories were printed. .. .. and whether

they are on display at the GSO Archives office.



Information would be appreciated – thanks in advance.



Bob S.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2300 Jim Blair
Re: National Meeting Directories National Meeting Directories 3/17/2005 6:38:00 PM


Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] National Meeting Directories



While reflecting on my 1951 AA World Group Directory I began to wonder when

the very first NATIONAL MEETING directories were printed. .. .. and whether

they are on display at the GSO Archives office.



First appeared as "List of AA Groups as of February 1946."



It included one group in the Canal Zone, Mexico (1), Australia (1), Canada

(4), England (1).


0 -1 0 0
2301 Jim Blair
Re: Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism" Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism" 3/17/2005 7:07:00 PM


I need help finding out who some of the characters are, that are referred

to in chapter 3 of the Big Book, "More About Alcoholism."



1. On page 32, 2nd paragraph, "A man of thirty." Who was this man?



This story was adapted from the chapter "First Steps" in the book Common

Sense of Drinking by Richard Peabody.



2. On page 35, 2nd paragraph, ... a friend we shall call Jim. Who was this

man?



Ralph Furlong, "Another Prodigal Story" (1st Edition)



3. On page 39, 2nd paragraph, "Fred is a partner...." Who was this man?



Harry Brick, "A Different Slant" (1st Edition) He sued the Alcoholic

Foundation for money loaned to print the Big Book.



Lee C. of CA, produced a document titled "Between the Lines" which explains

the people and places mentioned in the first 164 pages of the BB and Dr.

Bob's story.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



MODERATOR: Let me add to Jim's message some additional info from two other

people who wrote in at the same time.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net> Date: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:21pm



Lester adds that Ralph F. was from Springfield, Mass., and Harry B. was from New

York.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



From: "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net> Date: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:18pm



Diz adds that Peabody's book did not identify the "man of thirty" in that story.



Harry B. (whose story was "A Different Slant") later got drunk.


0 -1 0 0
2302 Ron Sessions
Re: The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous 3/18/2005 12:23:00 AM


Hello all -



My first chance to post in this group – I want to thank all of you

for so much effort and time – great information here - very helpful!



I know this is a little late – but I just joined this group recently

and ran across a post I wanted to reply to while searching the

archives for "Between the Lines".



(All page numbers refer to `Alcoholics Anonymous' 3rd Edition)



Here is how I see what is stated on pages 158-159 regarding the `A

year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more.'

statement:



OK, You have Bill W. and Dr. Bob – they 12th step Bill D. – then

these three 12th step the devil may care chap (Ernie G. who later

married Bob's daughter Sue). That makes four. After Ernie sobers up,

Bill W. returns home, leaving three in Akron.



I believe the `three' mentioned on page 159 are Dr. Bob, Bill D. and

Ernie - they succeeded with seven more in the next year and six

months. The following pages (159, 160 and 161) speak exclusively of

Akron and its environs. At the bottom of page 161 New York is finally

mentioned (eastern cities). So the seven in the first year and a half

only speaks of Akron area folks – not New York area.



At least that is how I read it.



Also – I would like to get of copy of the document titled "Between

the Lines" by Lee C. of CA mentioned by Jim Blair in message # 2301

if possible.



Thanks – Ron Sessions



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

>

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


0 -1 0 0
2303 cdknapp@pacbell.net
Pink Seven Pink Seven 3/18/2005 3:21:00 AM


Hello group,

I was asked a question that I could not answer or find on the

Internet. I was wondering if any of you can help. In "Physician,

Heal Thyself!" Earle uses a term "know as Pink Seven" on page 304 in

the 4th Ed. Can any one give me a definition of this term? Thanking

you in advance.

Charles from California


0 -1 0 0
2304 ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>
Re: National Meeting Directories National Meeting Directories 3/18/2005 3:33:00 AM


hello Group,



From my research and notes, the first National Directories were

booklet-published in the spring of 1940 by the Alcoholic Foundation office. The

"LISTING OF A.A. GROUPS WITH THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION" directories were updated

every six months. The printed documents reported group membership numbers,

locations, meeting nights, and contact addresses for the groups (when available

as P.O. Boxes, otherwise the names and addresses of Group Secretaries). Later

directories published contribution amounts, telephone numbers (beginning in

1947), and discontinued the semi-annual booklet printing sometime in the 1950s.



The AA Archives at GSO will not provide photocopies, due to current

confidentiality policies. Judit Olah, Archivist, has a staff of three who reply

to requests on the history of specific groups, and I'm sure that information on

the original meetings (or any group's meetings) in any given city would be

provided on request. The first place the research staff would go is the printed

semi-annual "Listing" that was sorted alphabetically by State and cities in that

State. Today, no one may get the early contact names but would receive details

of the group's earliest recorded information.



Write: The AA Archives,General Service Office, 475 Riverside Drive, 11th Floor,

New York, NY 10115



of note: ACROSS THE UNITED STATES IN 1940: 59 active groups, 1,400 members

(courtesy of the AA Archives and used with permission).



Yours in fellowship, Rick T., Illinois





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2305 ArtSheehan
FW: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/18/2005 3:51:00 PM


The questions about the tenets of the Oxford Group prompts me to comment on the

important influence religion had on early AA. When Bill wrote “Let’s get

friendly with our friends” it is worth noting that the “friends” are physicians

and the clergy. In AA's early decades, men and woman of religion were

celebrated for their contributions to AA. “AA Comes of Age” is filled with

tribute to them.



Prior to taking on the name “Oxford Group” the society was called “The First

Century Christian Fellowship.” The Oxford Group (OG) is not fairly summed up in

a few lines of “tenets” any more so than the use of the Ten Commandments would

aptly describe the substance of Judaism.



The OG was an evangelical movement that, although neutral in its advocating a

specific religious denomination, regarded its code or system of beliefs to be

firmly rooted in Christian Scripture. Dr Bob, his wife Anne, Frank Buchman, Rev

Sam Shoemaker, Rowland Hazard, Jim Newton, Shep Cornell, Henrietta Seiberling,

Rev Walter Tunks, Norman Shepherd, Russell Firestone and T Henry & Clarace

Williams were most of the key names that carried the OG influence to the two

fledgling AA groups (in Akron and NY) that initially met under the auspices of

the OG.



A July 1945 Grapevine article reported that in June 1945, Cleveland, OH hosted a

2-day “Big Meeting” at the Cleveland Music Hall and Carter Hotel to celebrate

AA’s 10th anniversary. Estimated attendance was 2,500. At the event Dr Bob

publicly commented, and is cited in the Grapevine, that over the last 10 years

he averaged at least an hour’s reading per day and “always returned to the

simple teachings in The Sermon on the Mount, the Book of James and the 13th

chapter of First Corinthians in the Bible for his fundamentals.”



Cheers, Arthur



Sources: Dick B, "The Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous"

(http://www.dickb.com/Oxford.shtml) and "Alcoholics Anonymous and Its Real

Oxford Group Connection" (http://www.aabibliography.com/article21.html).


0 -1 0 0
2306 Glenn Chesnut
I have talked with Nancy O. I have talked with Nancy O. 3/18/2005 8:45:00 PM


Nancy O., the founder and moderator of the AAHistoryLovers, did in fact break

her leg and her hip in the fall she took on Friday, March 11. Her heart is too

weak for them to operate on her and set the broken bones properly. Her heart

stopped beating on Sunday, and they thought they had lost her, but then it

started beating again.



She has now been moved to a nursing home in Roanoke, Virginia, only five blocks

away from her sister and her nephew and niece, who are watching over her.



I talked with Nancy briefly at 8 p.m. this evening (Friday, March 18). She was

able to talk clearly, but she is in a lot of pain, and began crying at one point

from the pain. No one can blame her for that.



I feel totally helpless in this situation myself. All we can do is pray for her.



Either Lori W. in Fredericksburg, Virginia, or I will keep the members of this

group posted on what is happening, as we get information.



G.C.















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2307 Diz Titcher
Re: Re: The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous 3/18/2005 8:57:00 PM


This is the first twelve I have:

Bill Wilson

Dr. Bob Smith

Eddie Reilly

Dr. McK.

Bill Dotson

Ernie Galbraith

Hank Parkhurst

Phil Smith

Wes Wymans

Fitz Mayo

Freddie B. NY

Brooke B. NY

Some of these were failures.



Diz Titcher


0 -1 0 0
2308 Roger Wheatley
Re: AA geographical membership rates AA geographical membership rates 3/19/2005 2:34:00 AM


Robin,

A member in the UK attempting to show the growth over here needs improvement

attempted to use some logic, census data, and determined that the US has sobered

up 10% of those who need it and the UK only 1%. Here is how that is determined

for sake of discussion, I do not believe it will hold up under scientific

scrutiny.



Membership of AA in UK approx. 22,000 according to GSO's 2002 survey.

Population in UK approx. 45 million according to census beaureau.

About 7% of population has drinking problem according to some agency.

Therefore, approximately 0.7% of those who need it are recovering in AA.



Membership in AA in USA approx 1 million.

USA is 5 times more populous than the UK.

Therefore they have 10x the membership per alcoholic (Assumpton alcoholism is

found at the same rate in both countries).





Roger W.



gentle_bear <gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au> wrote:



Hi Folks,



My recent question re AA membership prompted me to wonder what the rates of

AA membership was in various countries around the world.



I was able to calculate the following.



These ratios are expressed as a percentage of the total population of a

country.



Australia - 0.150%

USA - 0.402%

Canada - 0.297%

New Zealand - 0.095%



Naturally the USA and Canada have high rates as AA started in North America.



The New Zealand membership census is on their website.



The Australian membership is an estimate - 30,000. Don't quote me - its

based on growth from a statistic about 10 years old.



Can anyone add to these figures?



The next question is - How can we explain these differences, if at all?



In Fellowship



Robin F.



Brisbane



Australia.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT





---------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2309 Jim Blair
Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley 3/19/2005 8:47:00 PM


THE FAMOUS QUOTE ATTRIBUTED TO HERBERT SPENCER



It may really have come originally from William Paley (1743-1805)



-------------------------------------------



Jim Blair: Scholarship on Herbert Spencer



http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation03.htm#Anchor-Rumor-53375



-------------------------------------------



At about the same time "anonaholic" <anonaholic@yahoo.com> wrote in and reported

discovering the same article on the internet:



http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/



-------------------------------------------



Glenn Chesnut: Jim has found new information on the quotation attributed to

Herbert Spencer,



"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof

against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting

ignorance. This principle is contempt prior to examination."



Michael StGeorge argues that it was a modification of a quotation from William

Paley (1743-1805), who wrote a book in 1794, entitled " A View of the Evidences

of Christianity." In the original version, the lines read:



"The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that more especially of men of rank

and learning in it, is resolved into a principle which, in my judgment, will

account for the inefficacy of any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz.

contempt prior to examination."



StGeorge's full article:

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/index.htm

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation02.htm

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation03.htm


0 -1 0 0
2310 ny-aa@att.net
AA Percent of Potential Members AA Percent of Potential Members 3/20/2005 9:48:00 AM


The question was to compare A.A. penetration around the world.

The rate of substance abuse is not the same in all countries.

To see what percentage of alcoholics are in A.A. in any given

country, you need to know the population and the rate of

alcohol dependence there. For the United States, a reasonable

estimate is that one in ten alcoholics are active A.A. members.



http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/press/2004/NESARCNews.htm#chart



Here is a 1992 vs 2002 comparison for United States adults.

It uses the DSM IV ("APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual

of Mental Disorders") definitions of Alcohol Abuse (drinking

caused trouble = problem drinkers) and Alcohol Dependent

(loss of control = real alcoholics). The distinction is

clearly defined. Note that there was a significant enough

reduction in the percentage of alcohol dependent adults that

the actual number went down in spite of population growth.



Alcohol Abuse (but not Dependent)

1992 3.0% 5.6 Million

2002 4.7% 9.7 Million

Alcohol Dependent

1992 4.4% 8.2 Million

2002 3.8% 7.9 Million

Total Abuse or Dependent

1992 7.4% 13.8 Million

2002 8.5% 17.6 Million



The 2002 A.A. membership in the U.S. was over one million.

If you assume A.A. is for "real alcoholics" then one in eight

are members. If you recognize that some "potential alcoholics"

or "problem drinkers" might join, then A.A. has one in seventeen.

Since most alcohol abusers aren't alcoholic enough to hit bottom

(yet) we could approximate that A.A. in the United States has

one in ten of all potential members.



GSO changed the way membership counts were calculated after 1993.

It would be misleading to attempt a historical comparison of

1992 vs. 2002 A.A. depth of reach without adjusting for that

change.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION SENT IN BY "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sun

Mar 20, 2005 0:34am



It’s very difficult to obtain reasonably accurate AA membership counts over any

broad geographical area. Oddly, sometimes it’s just as difficult to get an

accurate membership count in a particular group.



For a table showing US and International group and membership counts from 1935

to 2002, please check Appendix 2 contained in the PDF file at the link below.

The table in Appendix 2 is from various written materials (which are

identified). Data from 1951 on are from annual final Conference reports.



http://www.silkworth.net/timelines/AA_Timeline_2004-04-01_Public04.pdf



Group and membership count estimates must be interpreted very carefully, very

skeptically and in proper context. Group counts include only those groups asking

GSO to be listed (thousands do not). Groups may or may not report membership

estimates or update estimates over time. Members can be counted in multiple

group estimates and the composition of the numbers has changed at various times

from “reported” to “estimated.”



AA is in about 150 countries (with 51 GSOs overseas). Each year, the US/Canada

GSO attempts to contact overseas GSOs and groups requesting to be listed in

their records. Where current data are lacking, earlier year’s figures are used.

An estimate of membership of non-reporting groups is arrived at by taking an

average of reporting groups.



From the beginning, the numbers are at best, “fuzzy” and do need to be

interpreted prudently to avoid drawing erroneous conclusions. The table data are

not an accurate measure of a specific year’s increase or decrease. However,

trends over the decades are indicative (but not exact) of AA groups reaching

more places and more AA members achieving recovery.



The last (2004) estimate of AA membership showed: the US with 1,187,000 members,

Canada with 94,000 members, US and Canadian correction facilities with 66,000

members and 716,453 members outside the US and Canada.

Various US demographic statistics can be found on the web site of the US

National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism at:



http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/databases/qf.htm#abdep


0 -1 0 0
2311 Mel Barger
Re: Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley 3/19/2005 11:38:00 PM


Dear Friends,

I'm impressed by the sleuthing that enabled Jim Blair to trace this

alleged Spencer quote to William Paley. Paley is famous for "intelligent

design"---i.e., insisting that if you found a watch you must believe that

there is a watchmaker, so the "intelligent design" in the world suggests

that there must be an "intelligent designer" behind it all. This view is

under attack by people such as Richard Dawkins, who argue that no designer

is necessary to explain life.

My own proof of "intelligent design" is in the wonderful change I found

when I began to believe in, and consciously contacting, a Higher Power who

is living and working in our lives.

Mel Barger


0 -1 0 0
2312 Jim S.
Re: Pink Seven Pink Seven 3/20/2005 3:38:00 PM


Cloud Nine, Pink Cloud, Seventh Heaven----Take your pick.


0 -1 0 0
2313 daly_thomasj
The people in the Big Book stories The people in the Big Book stories 3/22/2005 7:16:00 PM


The West Baltimore Group of Alcoholics Anonymous has a section on its website

called Biographies of the Authors. This is one of the first places one ought to

check to find out more about who the people were who appear in the stories at

the end of the Big Book.



This website says that the short biographies of the various authors of the

stories in the back of the book Alcoholics Anonymous have been graciously

supplied by Nancy O., the moderator of the AA History Lovers list and her

friends.



http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm


0 -1 0 0
2314 Martha Brummett
Death of former Trustee Don P. (Aurora CO) Death of former Trustee Don P. (Aurora CO) 3/24/2005 11:25:00 PM


Don Pritts of Aurora, Colorado, a former alcoholic Trustee and one who helped

carry the AA message to Russia in the late nineteen-eighties, died March 20. He

touched many people's lives and will be greatly mourned.



Martha B.

Denver CO


0 -1 0 0
2315 Glenn Chesnut
Nancy''s gone home to God Nancy''s gone home to God 3/26/2005 3:51:00 AM


I'm so sorry to have to deliver this news, but our founder and moderator Nancy

Olson died at 3:22 p.m. on Friday afternoon, March 25th.



I was told that Nancy wanted to be cremated with no funeral service, so I am not

sure what is happening at this point.



We have prepared a Memorial for her, with a brief account of her life and all

the good things she did for alcoholics over the years, and some photographs from

various points in her life. I think everyone in the group will want to look at

it. We can't attach or include photos in the AAHistoryLovers messages, so we

have posted the memorial at this website:



http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html



http://hindsfoot.org/nomem2.html



http://hindsfoot.org/nomem3.html



http://hindsfoot.org/nomem4.html



Glenn Chesnut



Eternal rest grant unto her, O Lord,

and let perpetual light shine upon her.

May the angels receive her in paradise,

at her coming may the martyrs receive her,

and bring her into the holy city Jerusalem.

There may choirs of angels receive her,

and with Lazarus who once was poor,

may she have eternal rest. Amen.











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2316 Glenn Chesnut
Memorial Book for Nancy O. Memorial Book for Nancy O. 3/28/2005 6:22:00 PM


MEMORIAL BOOK FOR NANCY O.



I know that a lot of people would like to express their appreciation for Nancy

and what she did for us in the fellowship, and that there are people who would

like to share some of their memories of her with the rest of us.



Doug B. at the AAHistory website ( http://www.aahistory.com/ ) has kindly

offered to let us use his site for a Memorial Book for Nancy. The Memorial Book

is at



http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest17.html



and has a place to write your message and post it.



Doug already has some very beautiful Memorial Books for a number of warmly

remembered people, including Dr. Paul (acceptance is the answer), Esther

Coleman, Searcy W., and Sue Smith Windows.



And I suppose that since Nancy's last contributions to the fellowship were

through this AA History Lovers web group which literally spans the whole globe

by electronic means, and touches every continent, a kind of "website memorial

service" of this sort would be the only way that all of us in the

AAHistoryLovers could ever get together in one place.



Glenn C.















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2317 Martha Brummett
Don P. Memorial Service Don P. Memorial Service 3/25/2005 12:39:00 PM


> Don Pritts of Aurora, Colorado, a former alcoholic Trustee and one who helped

carry the AA message to Russia in the late nineteen-eighties, died March 20. He

touched many people's lives and will be greatly mourned.



The memorial service will be held Monday, April 11, at 2:00 p.m. at the Mile

High Church of Religious Science, 9077 W. Alameda Ave., Lakewood, Colorado.



Cards, etc., to:



Ms. Jackie Pritts, 1009 S. Lewiston Way, Aurora CO 80017.









Regards,

Martha B.

Denver CO


0 -1 0 0
2318 Don Kozak
Choose conception Choose conception 3/30/2005 1:03:00 PM


Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own

conception of GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a

regular part of Oxford Group teaching?

TIA Don...TGCHAHO...


0 -1 0 0
2319 Jon Markle
Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder 3/30/2005 8:34:00 PM


Anyone have any other info regarding this person or her work?



Thanks, Jon Markle, Raleigh



-----Original Message-----



http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-weathers30mar30,1,

640786.story



Brenda Weathers, 68; Founded Center for Alcoholics

By Elaine Woo

Times Staff Writer



March 30, 2005



Brenda Weathers, an activist, writer and founder of a pioneering alcoholism and

drug recovery center for women in Los Angeles, died March 20 at her Long Beach

home. She was 68. A lifelong smoker, Weathers died of lung cancer, said her

partner, Vicki Lewis.



Weathers founded the Alcoholism Center for Women in 1974 and served as its first

director. The center, which operates out of two Victorian-style houses on

Alvarado Street west of downtown Los Angeles, was believed to be the first such

facility in the country to primarily serve gay women.



A recovered alcoholic herself, Weathers understood that society treated drunk

women more harshly than their male counterparts. Lesbian alcoholics, she

believed, had three strikes against them - female, gay and alcoholic - that

resulted in their drinking remaining hidden longer. Lesbians, like gay men, are

believed to have higher rates of alcoholism than the general population, but

they were often shunned by traditional recovery programs, which were dominated

by men and sometimes compounded the stigma that gay women felt by trying to

convert them to heterosexuality.



The Alcoholism Center for Women, which began as a program at what is now the Gay

and Lesbian Community Services Center in Hollywood, encouraged women to accept

themselves and fostered a feminist awareness.



In addition to offering traditional crisis intervention, counseling and weekly

Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, it organized dances, potluck suppers and other

recreational activities as alternatives to gay bars.



"Women were fighting to be heard, and it was difficult during those times,"

recalled Nora Steel, a longtime counselor at the center who worked with

Weathers. "Brenda forged ahead and said, 'We have issues and needs. We're out

there drinking and dying and no one cares, and I want do something.' She

was courageous."



Born in Smithfield, Texas, the daughter of a Baptist preacher had been expelled

from Texas Women's University in 1957 after college officials learned of her

sexual orientation. When the father of her girlfriend discovered their

relationship, he beat both girls with a rubber hose.



Weathers moved to California in the 1960s. She earned a bachelor's degree in

anthropology from Cal State Long Beach, then became a social worker for Los

Angeles County. She eventually turned to alcohol in an attempt to hold together

her dual identities as a closeted lesbian and straight professional, but her

drinking got out of hand and she quit to avoid being fired.



She opened a second-hand store in Los Angeles called the Junk Lady, where she

would cloister herself after hours and get drunk on jug wine.



"I'd wish and wish someone would call me, and no one did," she told The Times in

a 1975 interview. "I would be filled with self-loathing. I'd hit myself on the

head, throw myself against the wall, screaming, 'I want out of this.' "



She eventually became sober through a self-help program and began working at the

Gay and Lesbian Center, where she helped write a proposal for a $300,000 federal

grant to start an alcoholism recovery program for women. The proposal was funded

and evolved into the Alcoholism Center for Women, with a 13-bed recovery house

and bustling outpatient program. It observed its 30th anniversary last year at a

celebration honoring Weathers.



After leaving the center in 1977, Weathers moved to San Francisco, where she ran

an alcohol and drug recovery center for the Whitman-Radclyffe Foundation. In the

early 1980s, she directed the Gay and Lesbian Chemical Dependency Program in

Seattle, where she met Lewis, who became her longtime partner.



Weathers is also survived by a sister, Carolyn Weathers of Long Beach.


0 -1 0 0
2320 Colston
Re: Choose conception Choose conception 3/31/2005 8:21:00 AM


"It is so with the decision about Christ. We surrender as much of

ourselves as we can to as much of Christ as we understand." p71 How

to Become A Christian - Samuel M. Shoemaker... 1953, Harper & Row.



On Mar 30, 2005 7:03 PM, Don Kozak <d_kozak@hotmail.com> wrote:

Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own conception of

GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a regular part

of Oxford Group teaching?


0 -1 0 0
2321 Jduplain@aol.com
Re: Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder 3/31/2005 4:07:00 AM


Hi Jon:



I was very sad to hear of the loss of my friend Brenda Weathers. When I was

Director, Office of Women, National Council on Alcoholism, (1975-78) Brenda was

my contact for the gay community.



Jan Du Plain

Du Plain Enterprises, Inc.

4201 Cathedral Avenue, NW Suite 1011W

Washington, DC 20016

Tel: 202-244-3338 Fax: 202-244-4539 Toll: 1-866-DUPLAIN

jan@duplain.com

www.duplain.com



-----Original Message-----

Anyone have any other info regarding this person or her work?

Thanks, Jon Markle, Raleigh



http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-weathers30mar30,1,

640786.story



Brenda Weathers, 68; Founded Center for Alcoholics

By Elaine Woo, Times Staff Writer

March 30, 2005



Brenda Weathers, an activist, writer and founder of a pioneering

alcoholism and drug recovery center for women in Los Angeles, died March 20 at

her Long Beach home. She was 68. A lifelong smoker, Weathers died of lung

cancer, said her partner, Vicki Lewis.



Weathers founded the Alcoholism Center for Women in 1974 and served as its first

director. The center, which operates out of two Victorian-style houses on

Alvarado Street west of downtown Los Angeles, was believed to be the first such

facility in the country to primarily serve gay women.


0 -1 0 0
2322 Bill Lash
RE: Choose conception Choose conception 3/31/2005 9:56:00 AM


The Oxford Group expression that I have heard about was, "Bring as much of

yourself as you understand to as much of God as you understand." I believe that

probably out of frustration (you can tell in the Big Book that Ebby went back &

forth for a while with Bill W. about the God thing), Ebby finally said to Bill,

"Listen, you don't need to believe what I believe, you can choose your own

conception of this Power."



Just Love, Barefoot Bill



We received similar messages from "John" <burcjo@yahoo.com> who linked it to the

Rev. Sam Shoemaker.



Also from Karen <honey_dot_com@yahoo.com> who referred to the frustration that

Ebby must have been feeling by that point as an important part of the context of

the statement.



-----Original Message----- From: Don Kozak d_kozak@hotmail.com]

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:03 PM



Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own conception of

GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a regular part

of Oxford Group teaching


0 -1 0 0
2323 TBaerMojo@aol.com
Re: Choose conception Choose conception 3/31/2005 4:54:00 AM


On the source of the idea that we should choose our own conception of God:



Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html



There may be a clue here from the Emmanuel Movement in Boston and its

influence on Rowland H.



Tim B


0 -1 0 0
2324 Mark Morse
Wombley''s clapboard factory Wombley''s clapboard factory 3/31/2005 12:41:00 PM


I would appreciate any information anyone may have about the origin and

reference of the phrase: "Then came the inevitable explosion---something like

that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory." from the 12 and 12.



I have pasted below the only responses I have been able to get on this

question. The Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library (RLL) in Madison

wasn't able to find the information.



Thanks!



Mark M.

Eau Claire, WI



******************

>>> "Otteson, M. Jeanne DPI-RLL" <m.jeanne.otteson@dpi.state.wi.us>

03/31/05 10:01 AM >>>

REPLY from RLL:



RE: A.A. Tradition Four - Wombley's Explosion



I also found the same information that you did in the AA Discussion

Groups. I have not been able to find any other substantial facts. I emailed the

Dorset Historical Society (Dorset, VT) requesting

information, but never received a response.



Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was born in East

Dorset, Vermont - so the Vermont connection seems credible.

RLL/jo



M. Jeanne Otteson, Reference Librarian

Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library

Madison, WI 53716



Really found nothing except for some AA history chat:



Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar

Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vt. before the turn of the century. The

Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the Ward

family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county.

(Sarasot, Sarasota, FL)



And a reference in the AA History Lovers:



From: Jim Blair <jblair@v...> Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:40 pm

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] re: clapboard factory explosion



David wrote: "Does anyone know if the Wombleys clapboard factory

explosion (referenced in Tradition 4 in the 12 & 12) was an actual event, or

just a figure of speech?"



I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East

Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still be

seen.


0 -1 0 0
2325 Audrey Borden
Boston AA Circa 1949 Boston AA Circa 1949 4/4/2005 4:37:00 PM


Greetings AA History Lovers,



I'm hoping someone here might help me decipher some references to AA in

Boston, made by an AA speaker on a tape I have.



The speaker is describing some of his experiences in Boston AA in 1949. He

mentions talking with some other AA members at a placy on Myrtle Street

behind the State House. I am trying to figure out what this place was and

what connection it might have had to AA in Boston at that time. An Internet

search this morning turned up an AA meeting that meets at 19 Myrtle Street

today, in a place called Beacon Chambers, but Beacon Chambers doesn't

suggest anything to me.



The man in the tape describes this place as a "father, son, holy ghost

house," words that suggest a church to me, but current Boston maps show no

churches at (or near) that address. Might it have been a church then, or a

church-sponsored half way house, or other place alcoholics in need of help

might have lived or gathered? Does anyone here have any ideas?



And finally, the speaker also mentions that he'd heard Bill Wilson speak "in

a brown bagger lunch. The office workers used to run in, chomp on their

sandwiches and listed intently to what sobriety was all about."



Is he refering to an AA group called the "Brown Baggers?" What office

workers might he mean, people who worked in this place on Myrtle Street?

Government workers at the State House? I have no clue!



As I know very little about Boston geography or AA development in Boston any

help you could give me would be much appreciated.



Thank you,



Audrey Borden

Sober in San Francisco


0 -1 0 0
2326 Cindy Miller
Re: Boston AA Circa 1949 Boston AA Circa 1949 4/6/2005 11:54:00 PM


A "father, son, and holy ghost" house isn't a church--rather, a tiny

3-floor row house consisting of one room on each floor....



On Monday, April 4, 2005, at 05:37 PM, Audrey Borden wrote:



The man in the tape describes this place as a "father, son, holy ghost house,"

words that suggest a church to me, but current Boston maps show no churches at

(or near) that address. Might it have been a church then, or a church-sponsored

half way house, or other place alcoholics in need of help might have lived or

gathered? Does anyone here have any ideas?


0 -1 0 0
2327 oicuradry12
who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/9/2005 11:23:00 PM


To all grateful historians abroad:

My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the first person

Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but some other person who

was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name was lost to A.A. history? If

anyone has the answer I would be forever grateful!


0 -1 0 0
2328 Carl P.
The two patients in the Doctors Opinion The two patients in the Doctors Opinion 4/10/2005 3:10:00 PM


Dr Silkworth refers to two patients on page xxxi in the fourth

edition big book.



Can somebody verify who these patients are ?



1. "one year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very

strange sensation. I knew the man by name" ?



2. "When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case

brought in by a physician prominent in New York. The patient had

made his own diagnosis, and deciding his situation hopeless, had

hidden in a deserted barn" ?



Many Thanks

Carl P.

Enfield.UK.


0 -1 0 0
2329 Glenn Chesnut
The Factory Owner & the Convict The Factory Owner & the Convict 4/12/2005 5:00:00 AM


Notice of new book on A.A. history:



Glenn C., The Factory Owner & the Convict, Vol. 1 of Lives and Teachings of the

A.A. Old Timers, April 2005, ISBN 0-595-34872-6, xii + 325 pp. Published by the

Hindsfoot Foundation and iUniverse.



The beginnings of the A.A. center which developed in the St. Joseph river valley

and spread its influence outward through many parts of Indiana and Michigan

during the 1940's. Includes material on an important early A.A. prison group and

on early black A.A. groups along the Chicago-Gary-South Bend axis which runs

along the southern coast of Lake Michigan.



For more information see:



http://hindsfoot.org/



http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2330 Aloke Dutt
AA movies AA movies 4/7/2005 12:30:00 AM


I am collecting commercial films like



>The Lost Weekend,

>When A man Loves a Woman &

>The Days Of Wine & Roses.

where alcoholism & recovery in AA are so wonderfully depicted.



Are there any other such movies also ?



Thanks for your help.

Aloke

in India









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2331 Charlie Bishop Jr.
Re: Wombley''s clapboard factory Wombley''s clapboard factory 4/11/2005 9:33:00 PM


Dear all: The following is unsubstantiated hearsay history...



I recall seeing a modern art painting and a commentary about it comparing it

to the Explosion of Wombley's



Clapboard (or Roof Shingle) Factory. The multi-colored shingles were

exploding outward in total chaos in the



painting. So maybe my handicapped memory will provoke some real research

in the explosion of the factory.



servus, Charlie Bishop, Jr.





----- Original Message -----

From: "Mark Morse" <markm@eauclaire.lib.wi.us>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:41 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Wombley's clapboard factory





>

>

> I would appreciate any information anyone may have about the origin and

reference of the phrase: "Then came the inevitable explosion---something

like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory." from the 12

and 12.

>

> I have pasted below the only responses I have been able to get on this

> question. The Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library (RLL) in Madison

> wasn't able to find the information.

>

> Thanks!

>

> Mark M.

> Eau Claire, WI

>

> ******************

> >>> "Otteson, M. Jeanne DPI-RLL" <m.jeanne.otteson@dpi.state.wi.us>

> 03/31/05 10:01 AM >>>

> REPLY from RLL:

>

> RE: A.A. Tradition Four - Wombley's Explosion

>

> I also found the same information that you did in the AA Discussion

> Groups. I have not been able to find any other substantial facts. I

emailed the Dorset Historical Society (Dorset, VT) requesting

> information, but never received a response.

>

> Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was born in East

> Dorset, Vermont - so the Vermont connection seems credible.

> RLL/jo

>

> M. Jeanne Otteson, Reference Librarian

> Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library

> Madison, WI 53716

>

> Really found nothing except for some AA history chat:

>

> Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an

Edgar Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vt. before the turn of the

century. The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as

that of the Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through

Chittenden county. (Sarasot, Sarasota, FL)

>

> And a reference in the AA History Lovers:

>

> From: Jim Blair <jblair@v...> Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:40 pm

> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] re: clapboard factory explosion

>

> David wrote: "Does anyone know if the Wombleys clapboard factory

> explosion (referenced in Tradition 4 in the 12 & 12) was an actual event,

or just a figure of speech?"

>

> I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East

> Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can

still be seen.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
2332 Jim Blair
Re: The two patients in the Doctors Opinion The two patients in the Doctors Opinion 4/11/2005 8:33:00 AM


FROM JIM BLAIR:



Can somebody verify who these patients are ?



1. "one year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very strange

sensation. I knew the man by name" ?



Hank Parkhurst



2. "When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in

by a physician prominent in New York.



Fitz Mayo



--------------------------------------------



FROM CHARLES KNAPP: <cdknapp@pacbell.net>



#1 - Hank Parkhurst His Story "The Unbeliever" in First Edition. Hank was a

high-pressure kind of guy. Was called a "promoter among promoters." Worked for

Standard Oil of New Jersey.



#2 - Fitz Mayo author of "Our Southern Friend".



--------------------------------------------

SAME INFO ALSO FROM:



"Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net>



"Tommy" <skyrocket1954@yahoo.com>


0 -1 0 0
2333 Dick Spaedt
Dr. Silkworth''s two patients Dr. Silkworth''s two patients 4/11/2005 8:38:00 AM


Dr Silkworth refers to two patients on page xxxi in the fourth edition big book.



Patient #1 was Henry (Hank) Parkhurst, Bill's partner in writing the Big Book.

He wrote the chapter "To Employers". His story "The Unbeliever" was in the

first edition of the Big Book.



Patient #2 was John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo, whose story is "Our Southern

Friend" page 208 in 4th Edition. He is also the minister's son referred to on

pages 56 & 57 of the text.


0 -1 0 0
2334 Diz Titcher
Re: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/11/2005 5:37:00 AM


The first person that Bill and Bob tried to help was Eddie Reilly(sp), whose

wife was a professor at Kent State Univ. They moved in the middle of the night

and Eddie showed up with two years of sobriety at Dr. Bob's funeral.



Diz T.

Tallahassee



--------------------------------------

From: "dikilee" <dikilee@yahoo.com>



The first person Bill and Bob worked with was Edgar "Eddie" R. He didn't get

sober then, but showed up at Dr. Bob's funeral in 1950 and had been sober for a

short time.



Dick Spaedt


0 -1 0 0
2335 Mitchell K.
Re: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/11/2005 6:30:00 PM


There is a letter at the Stepping Stones Archives written by Bill to

Lois on Dr. Bob's letterhead from May 1935 while Bill was staying at

Dr. Bob's home. Bill states that they met with a Dr. McKay who was

a "rake." Given the early date of that letter I would place this person

as the first one they met with. There was no reference to any earlier

people in that letter.





> To all grateful historians abroad:

> My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the

first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but

some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name

was lost to A.A. history? If anyone has the answer I would be forever

grateful!


0 -1 0 0
2336 Charles Knapp
RE: Who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? Who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/12/2005 1:00:00 AM


Actually there was a Dr. McKay they tried working with first, according to a

letter dated May 1935. This was prior to Dr Bob's last drink. Don't know what

ever happen to him. But yes the name of AA # 3 for a short time was Eddie Riley

and in Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers you can find more about him on pages 77-78;

80-81; 85,93,97,99 and in Pass It On pages 151,152,159



Charles from California

____________________________________



From: "oicuradry12" <oicuradry12@yahoo.com>

Subject: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?



My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the first person

Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but some other person who

was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name was lost to A.A. history?


0 -1 0 0
2337 ArtSheehan
RE: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/12/2005 7:58:00 PM


Two alcoholics in Akron, OH unsuccessfully preceded Bill Dotson for

the opportunity to be AA #3: the first was a Dr McKay, the second was

Eddie Reilly.







SOURCE REFERENCES:







AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS



AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS



AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft

cover)



BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography (hard cover)



BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)



BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)



CH - Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by

Christine Brewer (soft cover)



DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS



EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)



GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft

cover)



GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)



LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson



NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition, soft cover)



NW - New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)



PIO - Pass It On, AAWS



SI - Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah (soft cover)







1935







May 11, (AGAA says May 10) Bill W, in poor spirits, and tempted to

enter the Mayflower Hotel bar, realized he needed another alcoholic.

He telephoned members of the clergy listed on the lobby directory. He

reached the Rev Walter Tunks who referred him to Norman Sheppard who

then referred him to Henrietta Sieberling (47 years old and an Oxford

Group adherent). Bill introduced himself as “a member of the OG and a

rum hound from NY.” Henrietta met with Bill at her gatehouse (Stan

Hywet Hall) on the Sieberling estate. She arranged a dinner meeting

the next day with Dr Bob and Anne. (AACOA 65-67, SI 21, BW-RT 212-213,

DBGO 60, 63-67, NG 26-28, PIO 134-138, GB 19) Note: some stories

(AACOA 67) say that when Henrietta called Anne, Dr Bob was passed out

under the kitchen table. He was upstairs in bed (re Big Book story Dr.

Bob’s Nightmare pg 179 4th ed).







May 12, Mother’s Day (AGAA says Mother’s Day was May 11) Bill W (age

39) met Dr Bob (age 55) Anne and their young son Bob (age 17) at

Henrietta Sieberling’s gatehouse at 5PM. Dr Bob, too hung over to eat

dinner, planned to stay only 15 minutes. Privately, in the library,

Bill told Bob of his alcoholism experience in the manner suggested by

Dr Silkworth. Bob opened up and he and Bill talked until after 11PM.

(AACOA vii, 67-70, BW-RT 214-215, DBGO 66-69, NG 28-32, BW-FH 4, GB

21)







May, Bill W wrote a letter to Lois saying that he and Dr Bob tried in

vain to sober up a Dr McKay, a “once prominent surgeon” who developed

into a “terrific rake and drunk” (BW-40 Appendix C). Henrietta

Sieberling arranged for Bill to stay at the Portage Country Club.

(DBGO 70, 77)







Jun, Bill W moved to Dr Bob’s house at the request of Anne Smith. Bill

insisted on keeping two bottles of liquor in the kitchen to prove that

he and Bob could live in the presence of liquor. Both worked with

alcoholics and went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at

the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to

the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73,

DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture

readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians

Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96

says that meetings were held at Dr Bob’s house and moved to the

Williams’ house in late 1936 or early 1937)







Jun 10 (more likely Jun 17) after a multi-day binge on the way to, and

at, an AMA convention in Atlantic City, NJ, a drunken Dr Bob was

picked up at his office nurse’s house in Cuyahoga Falls. Bob went

through a 3-day sobering up period with Bill W’s help. Scheduled for a

surgery at City Hospital, Bob pronounced, “I am going through with

this - I have placed both operation and myself in God’s hands. I’m

going to do what it takes to get sober and stay that way.” Bill gave

Bob his last drink (a beer) and a “goofball” (a barbiturate) to steady

him prior to the surgery. (AACOA vii, 70-71, SI 22, DBGO 72-75, NG 32,

PIO 147-149, AA video Bill’s Own Story)







Jun 11 (more likely Jun 18), Dr Bob suggested that he and Bill W work

with other alcoholics. A local Minister, J C Wright, provided them

with a prospect. They tried in vain, throughout the summer, to sober

up Edgar (Eddie) Reilly (described as an “alcoholic atheist” and “able

to produce a major crisis of some sort about every other day”). Eddie

missed the chance to be AA #3 but he showed up at Dr Bob’s funeral in

1950. He was sober a year and attending the Youngstown, OH group.

(AACOA 72-73, DBGO 77-81, 85, NG 37, 319, PIO 151-152, AAGA 184, CH

5-6)







Jun 28, Bill W, Dr Bob and Eddie R visited Bill Dotson (Big Book story

Alcoholic Anonymous Number Three) at City Hospital. A prominent

attorney in Akron, Bill D had been hospitalized 8 times in 1935

because of his drinking. Bill W and Bob visited Bill D every day. It

took about 5 days before Bill D would say that he could not control

his drinking. He checked out of the hospital on Jul 4 and within a

week, was back in court sober and arguing a case. (AACOA 71-73, AABB

184, BW-RT 219-220, DBGO 81-89, NG 37, 319, PIO 152-154, GB 42, AGAA

202-203) (Note: Bill D was Ohio’s Delegate for Panel 1, the first

General Service Conference in 1951).







Jul (?), Lois went to Akron to join Bill W at the Smith’s house for

two weeks (LR 197, NG 41, BW-FH 85).







Jul, encouraged by T Henry Williams, Ernie Galbraith (AA #4, Big Book

story The Seven Month Slip) contacted Dr Bob and sobered up. He later

married Dr Bob’s adopted daughter Sue in Sep 1941. Ernie could not

stay sober and their marriage was a disaster. Tragically, on Jun 11,

1969, their daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking the life of

her 6-year-old daughter Sandy. Ernie G died two years later to the

day. (AACOA 7, 73, DBGO 92-95, AAGA 68, CH 72-74, PIO 154-155)







Aug 26, Bill W returned to NYC. Meetings were held at his house at 182

Clinton St on Tues. nights. His home also became a halfway house, of

sorts, for drunks. (AACOA 74, BW-RT 225, PIO 160-162, GTBT 96, GB 51,

AGAA 145)







Nov 19, Ebby T came to live with Bill W and Lois at Clinton St. (LR

197, EBBY 72, NG 42-44)







Winter, Henry (Hank) Parkhurst (Big Book story The Unbeliever) and

John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo (Big Book story Our Southern Friend)

sobered up at Towns Hospital. Hank and Fitz provided a big help to

Bill W. Hank started AA in NJ at his house and Fitz started AA in

Washington, DC (AACOA 16-17, 74, LR 101, BW-RT 225-226, NG 43-44) (PIO

191 says 1937)







Cheers



Arthur S



_____



From: oicuradry12 [mailto:oicuradry12@yahoo.com]

Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 11:23 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?









To all grateful historians abroad:

My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the

first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed"

but some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose

name was lost to A.A. history? If anyone has the answer I would be

forever grateful!



















_____



Yahoo! Groups Links



* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscrib

e>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2338 Glenn Chesnut
List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism 4/17/2005 1:09:00 AM


There were so many messages sent in on this topic, that I thought it was best to

gather them together into a single posting. When a number of people all sent in

the same movie, I did not always list everyone. -- Glenn C.



------------------------------



Aloke in India started us off with three movies:



"THE LOST WEEKEND"



"WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN"



"DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES"



------------------------------



A GOOD LIST OF MOVIES WITH EXCELLENT COMMENTARIES adds some other movies to the

list given below:



From: philip luppy lupp713@yahoo.com Here is a link to a bibliographic essay on

motion pictures and AA:



http://www.bks.no/partyend.pdf



------------------------------



"MY NAME IS BILL W."



From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com



A must have in any AA film collection is "My Name is Bill W." starring James

Woods and James Garner. The story of Bill and the early days in AA. Much Love

Disco Dave



From: billyk billyk3@yahoo.com



My Name is Bill W., a Hallmark film, starring James Woods as Bill and Jo Beth

Williams as his wife. It is the story of Bill's life. It is, in my opinion, the

best AA movie made (and I've seen them all).



From: "Diz Titcher" rtitcher@comcast.net How about A Man called Bill. Diz T.



"DRUNKS"



From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com



There is also a terrible film from 1997 called "Drunks" which is an example of

how AA has become group therapy in many places. Don't see it.



From: Ron Sessions pqrgs@yahoo.com



I don't know about wonderfully depicted, but there is a film that I think does a

VERY good job of depicting what AA has become - the movie is called 'Drunks'

from mid-1990's staring Richard Lewis, Faye Dunaway and others. It shows the

result of the self-help, pick any higher power you want AA that is so common

today in a very revealing light.



"CLEAN AND SOBER"



From: Lynda lynda_rivers@yahoo.com



Another great movie that you might want to add to your collection is Clean and

Sober, starring Michael Keaton. It was released in 1988 and it's excellent. Have

a great day! Lynda



From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com pauguspass@yahoo.com Clean and Sober



"MY NAME IS KATE"



From: billyk billyk3@yahoo.com "My Name is Kate "



"28 DAYS"



From: rich northouse rnorthouse@wi.rr.com 28 Days is a good one.



From: "Rob White" rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu



I like Sandra Bullock's movie, "28 days." It's a great story about a woman that

goes to rehab.



From: MarionORedstone@aol.com



28 days with Sandra Bullock. Marion O. Redstone, Atty., Indianapolis, Indiana



From: george cleveland pauguspass@yahoo.com 28 Days--not a milestone.



"I'LL CRY TOMORROW"



From: Pam Lanning prlanning@gmail.com



I'll Cry Tomorrow. It's a true story. I just read the book.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048191/plotsummary



Deprived of a normal childhood by her ambitious mother, Katie (Jo Van Fleet),

Lillian Roth (Susan Hayward) becomes a star of Broadway and Hollywood before she

is twenty. Shortly before her marriage to her childhood sweetheart, David

Tredman (Ray Danton), he dies and Lillian takes her first drink of many down the

road of becoming an alcoholic. She enters into a short-lived marriage to an

immature aviation cadet, Wallie (Don Taylor), followed by a divorce and then

marriage to a sadistic brute and abuser Tony Bardeman (Richard Conte). After a

failed suicide attempt, Burt McGuire (Eddie Albert)comes to her aid and helps

her find the road back to happiness after sixteen years in a nightmare world,

not counting the first twenty with her mother.



"SHAKES THE CLOWN"



From: "Richard Johnson" hotshots@elltel.net



One done in 70's and a great comedy about an alcoholic clown, "Shakes the

Clown."



"SHATTERED SPIRITS"



From: "Richard Johnson" hotshots@elltel.net



Martin Sheen, Shattered Spirits, 1989. Great Movie!!



From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net Shattered Spirits- Charlie Sheen



"ON THE NICKLE"



From: "Robert Stonebraker" rstonebraker212@insightbb.com



"On The Nickle" is a thoroughly forgotten film about skid row hi-jinx in Los

Angeles. It is directed by Ralph Waite who also plays a part in this 1980 movie.

It is a film which I was lucky enough to tape from the "Z Channel" (now defunct)

in Los Angeles many years ago. The brainchild of actor Ralph Waite (of Waltons),

it was independently made on a very low budget. In it, Waite manages to balance

the tragedy of skid-row life with humor and irony, and in spite of an easy,

fellini-esque ending, tells a moving story of a man (Donald Moffat) a former

alcoholic and skid row dweller, struggling to "put his demons to rest" as he

searches the "Nickle" (Fifth Street) for his old pal, C.G., played by Ralph

Waite. The movie is bookended by the Tom Waits song, "On The Nickle", presumably

written for the movie, and has a score that quotes the song frequently. Maybe

the Independent Film Channel will consider running it.



Bob S., from Indiana



"VITAL SIGNS"



From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net



Vital Signs - Ed Asner



"LEAVING LAS VEGAS"



From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net



Leaving Las Vegas



"UNDER THE INFLUENCE"



From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net



Under The Influence -Keanau Reeves, Andy Griffith



"STUART SAVES HIS FAMILY"



From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net



Stuart Saves His Family



"THE GREAT SANTINI"



From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net



The Great Santini



"ON THIN ICE"



From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net



On Thin Ice



"LADY SINGS THE BLUES"



From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net



Lady Sings the Blues



"SMASH UP"



From: "Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net



Try Smash Up, with Susan Hayward, Aloke, which came out about the same time as

Lost Weekend.



"LIFE OF THE PARTY"



From: Julie zulie55@yahoo.com



There is a movie coming on encore, April 23, "Life of the Party: The Story of

Beatrice," 1982. It has Carol Burnett in it.


0 -1 0 0
2339 Carl P.
Ebby Thacher Ebby Thacher 4/16/2005 9:38:00 PM


Hi all,



I would like to thank all the people that replied to my last

couple of questions.



I have another question that I need help with. When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8,

and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's intention to make amends to Bill?



Many Thanks

Carl P.

Enfield UK


0 -1 0 0
2340 Jarvis
celebrated American statesman celebrated American statesman 4/14/2005 8:14:00 AM


Hello

On page 50 of the B.B. the authors refer to "a celebrated American statesman" as

having said "Let's look at the record". Who are they refering to, who is the

statesman?

Thanks

Jarvis


0 -1 0 0
2341 Bill Lash
Toronto 2005 AA Int''l. Conv. Available Hotel Rooms Toronto 2005 AA Int''l. Conv. Available Hotel Rooms 4/13/2005 9:02:00 AM


Shortcut to: http://2005internationaltorontoaccommodations.com/


0 -1 0 0
2342 Jim Blair
Re: celebrated American statesman celebrated American statesman 4/17/2005 9:37:00 AM


Jarvis asked

On page 50 of the B.B. the authors refer to "a celebrated American statesman" as

having said "Let's look at the record". Who are they referring to, who is the

statesman?



Alfred E. Smith. Four time Governor of New York and unsuccessful first Roman

Catholic presidential candidate.

Jim

____________________

MODERATOR: WE WERE ALSO GIVEN A GOOD REFERENCE BY RICK B. FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO

KNOW MORE.



Rickydotcom <rickydotcom@yahoo.com>

According to the Anonymous Press Study Edition of the Big Book it is Alfred E.

Smith, former governor of New York. See this website for a bio on Smith

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1495.html

Be well, Rick Benchoff, Hagerstown, Maryland

____________________

MODERATOR: AND OTHERS AMONG OUR INTREPID HISTORICAL RESEARCHERS ALSO CAME UP

WITH THE NAME ALFRED E. SMITH

Sbickell@aol.com

lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>

J N P <jopet34@yahoo.com>

"Charles Knapp" <cdknapp@pacbell.net>

"Roy V. Tellis" Baldwin, NY <roytellis@yahoo.com>

Thumper (Paula) <dsgrl121501@yahoo.com>


0 -1 0 0
2343 Mel Barger
Re: Ebby Thacher Ebby Thacher 4/17/2005 8:12:00 AM


Hi Carl,

I doubt that Ebby had any amends to make to Bill, as he hadn't harmed him

in any way. They did take that drunken airplane ride in 1929 but Bill was

as much involved in it as Ebby and no lasting harm resulted from it. The

pilot might have been drunk too and it was a dangerous action, but they got

through it.

As I understand it, Ebby was living in the Calvary Mission and just

happened to drop in on some friends in a Wall Street brokerage office. (Ebby

had worked briefly as a broker in Albany.) The friend (or friends) told him

that Bill was in terrible shape in Brooklyn. Ebby then decided to help

Bill, if he could. So Ebby called Lois and this led to his call to Bill.

As you can read in "Pass It On," Bill even visited the mission where Ebby

was staying and made a fool of himself. Bill finally decided to go back to

Towns Hospital, where he had the transforming experience mentioned in his

personal story.

Mel Barger





----- Original Message -----

From: "Carl P." <cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk>

I have another question that I need help with. When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8,

and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's intention to make amends to Bill?

Many Thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK


0 -1 0 0
2344 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Ebby Thacher Ebby Thacher 4/17/2005 9:46:00 AM


Hi Carl



Based on Mel B's book ("Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W" pg 66) Ebby's own

recollection of events was that he wound up first contacting Lois Wilson who

invited him over for dinner. In late November 1934, Ebby visited Bill W at 182

Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to

another." A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C (see "Pass It On" pg 116 -

several other books document this as well). Ebby and Shep spoke to Bill about

the Oxford Group (Bill did not think too highly of Shep).



Lois recalled in an interview that Ebby visited several times, once even staying

for dinner (see "Not God" pg 311). Mel B also notes that while this may not

reconcile with Bill's description of events it occurred at time when Bill was at

the worst of his drinking. Ebby's recollection of events would probably be far

more accurate since he was not drinking at the time.



Relatively speaking, I don't get the sense that Ebby and Bill did all that much

drinking and socializing together except when Bill visited Albany, NY. Ebby

lived in Albany, NY (with some time also spent in Vermont) while Bill lived in

NY City (there is one very notable story, however, involving an airplane ride

from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Even though Ebby and Bill spent one year of

high school together it appears that Ebby's family was more closely aligned

Lois' family (and Lois' brother Rogers) through their mutual vacationing each

summer in Vermont (see "Lois Remembers" pg 7).



My sense of events was that Ebby, who was then residing at the Calvary Mission,

was simply being a good Oxford Group member and trying to help others in the

same manner he was helped by fellow OG alcoholics Rowland H, Shep C and Cebra G.



Cheers



Arthur



----- Original Message -----

From: Carl P.<mailto:cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk>

When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8, and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's

intention to make amends to Bill?

Many Thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK


0 -1 0 0
2345 Mel Barger
Re: Ebby Thacher Ebby Thacher 4/19/2005 8:06:00 AM


Hi Friends,

I agree with Art's review here re Ebby's contacts with Bill, etc. Bill was,

however, a friend of Shep's but Shep didn't think he had had much of a drinking

problem and wasn't qualified to serve as an example of recovery! Shep later

drank again, but only as the moderate drinker he had been right along. He had

been abstaining because that was required by the Oxford Group. Shep still had

some money and could take Ebby, Lois, and Bill to dinner. He became a

lieutenant colonel during WWII and then was general manager of A.O. Smith

Company in Milwaukee. He was retired and living in Earlysville, VA, when I

talked with him by phone. Lois also knew Shep well and mentioned that he was a

great golfer. Undoubtedly he and Bill had

played together at the Ekwanok club in 1929 when Bill acquired golf fever.

Mel Barger



----- Original Message -----

From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 10:46 AM



Hi Carl



Based on Mel B's book ("Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W" pg 66) Ebby's own

recollection of events was that he wound up first contacting Lois Wilson who

invited him over for dinner. In late November 1934, Ebby visited Bill W at 182

Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to

another." A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C see "Pass It On" pg 116 -

several other books document this as well).



Ebby and Shep spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group (Bill did not think too

highly of Shep). Lois recalled in an interview that Ebby visited several times,

once even staying for dinner (see "Not God" pg 311). Mel B also notes that while

this may not reconcile with Bill's description of events it occurred at time

when Bill was at the worst of his drinking. Ebby's recollection of events would

probably be far more accurate since he was not drinking at the time.



Relatively speaking, I don't get the sense that Ebby and Bill did all that much

drinking and socializing together except when Bill visited Albany, NY. Ebby

lived in Albany, NY (with some time also spent in Vermont) while Bill lived in

NY City (there is one very notable story, however, involving an airplane ride

from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Even though Ebby and Bill spent one year of

high school together it appears that Ebby's family was more closely aligned

Lois' family (and Lois' brother Rogers) through their mutual vacationing each

summer in Vermont (see "Lois Remembers" pg 7).



My sense of events was that Ebby, who was then residing at the Calvary Mission,

was simply being a good Oxford Group member and trying to help others in the

same manner he was helped by fellow OG alcoholics Rowland H, Shep C and Cebra G.



Cheers, Arthur


0 -1 0 0
2346 Glenn Chesnut
The dozens of Oxford Group tenets The dozens of Oxford Group tenets 4/25/2005 3:08:00 PM


QUESTION ASKED BY: "Carl P." <cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk> Wed Apr 20, 2005



SUBJECT: Oxford Group Tenets



Please can somebody confirm, did the Oxford Group have five or six tenets ?



Many thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK



------------------------------------------------------



Carl,



The short answer is, neither five nor six, but many dozens of tenets.



It would be useful to look at some of our previous messages on this one to get

some of the details on this. See particularly messages 2274 (Robert Stonebraker

at rstonebraker212@insightbb.com), 2286 (Arthur Sheehan at ArtSheehan@msn.com

), 2288 (Ernest Kurtz at kurtzern@umich.edu), and 2295 ( Tom Hickcox at

cometkazie1@cox.net). There is some really good AA history in these postings.



Let me try to give you a summary though. In the Foreword to the Second Edition

of the Big Book (page xvi in the third and fourth editions) we find the

following sentence, which Bill W. wrote in 1955, where he was trying to describe

what he came to believe back in 1934, some twenty-one years earlier.



"Though he [Bill Wilson] could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups,

he was convinced of the need for [1] moral inventory, [2] confession of

personality defects, [3] restitution to those harmed, [4] helpfulness to others,

and [5] the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."



Let us remember the full historical context here, when we are talking about the

end of 1934 and what Bill Wilson believed at that time.



In November 1934, Ebby and Bill had their talk in Bill's kitchen, and Bill says

that the "scales ... fell from my eyes" (see page 12 in the Big Book). The

reference here was to the Apostle Paul's conversion experience on the road to

Damascus, as described in the book of Acts in the New Testament (see Acts 9:18),

and this particular phrase would have been instantly recognized by any

Bible-reading Christian of that time as a reference to a person's fundamental

conversion experience. The saving message which produced this, which was Bill

W.'s first conversion experience (see page 12 of the Big Book), was "Why don't

you choose your own conception of God?" It put him back into contact with his

awareness of God-presence at Winchester Cathedral (Big Book pages 1 and 12).



So Bill's first conversion experience was therefore a re-establishment of his

awareness of the Holy (see Rudolf Otto, The Idea of the Holy, 1917, English

translation 1923, written by the German theologian who was regarded as one of

the two most important Protestant theologians of that era). It was a realization

that learning to become intuitively aware of the holy and sacred dimension of

reality at the feeling level was at the root of real God-consciousness. If you

could walk into a church and "feel" the presence of the holy, and then could

learn to feel that same intuitive sense of divine presence in other places too,

then you could learn how to practice God-consciousness on an everyday basis. God

became real only when we could learn to "feel" his presence -- a God who was

only an intellectual theory or an ecclesiastical dogma blindly believed in,

could not help an alcoholic stop drinking.



But then in December 1934, when Bill was in Towns Hospital, he had another even

more dramatic spiritual experience of an extraordinary sort. The majority of AA

members, however, never ever have a spiritual experience of that sort, and it is

not at all necessary to getting sober and obtaining deep serenity and

spirituality (see Appendix Two to the Big Book, on pages 569-570 of the third

edition). So it is the first conversion experience which we in AA ought

primarily to focus on in developing our own spirituality, not trying to obtain

visionary experiences like the one Bill W. had in Towns Hospital, and we are

also warned in Appendix Two that learning to fully feel the presence of the

sacred dimension of reality and God's presence with us, may only develop slowly

over a long period of time.



The reference however to the "sudden spiritual experience" in the Foreword to

the Second Edition (pages xi-xvi) sounds like Bill W. is referring to the later

one in Towns Hospital instead of the earlier one in his kitchen when he was

talking with Ebby.



However, Ebby was still important. Ebby was at this time deeply involved in the

Oxford Group (although there was also a connection, via Rowland Hazard, to

Courtenay Baylor and the Emmanuel Movement). So in the Foreword to the Second

Edition of the Big Book, Bill Wilson tries to summarize what he picked up from

the Oxford Group in his first contact with them, at the end of 1934. So this is

where the reference to Oxford Group "tenets" comes into the Foreword:



"Though he [Bill Wilson] could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups,

he was convinced of the need for [1] moral inventory, [2] confession of

personality defects, [3] restitution to those harmed, [4] helpfulness to others,

and [5] the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."



By "the tenets of the Oxford Groups," Bill Wilson here simply meant all the many

different parts of the Oxford Group teachings. It was just a general reference

to everything the OG taught. Bill W. was not making a reference here to some

formal list of five or six or seven particular rules. That is, there was no list

of five or six particular Oxford Group rules that were called "The Tenets" and

were listed in the way in which the Hebrew Bible has Ten Commandments and A.A.

has Twelve Steps. There were dozens of Oxford Group beliefs.



So what Bill W. was saying was that the OG had all sorts of "tenets" or beliefs,

that is, all sorts of various teachings on all sorts of various topics, but that

he rejected many of these, even back in 1935, believing that they were not

useful or appropriate for him or other recovering alcoholics. This is important

to note -- Bill W. is insisting here in 1955 that he NEVER bought the ENTIRE

Oxford Group line, even back at the end of 1934. Alcoholics Anonymous historians

can and will argue about that one. But Bill W. was saying that he did find SOME

Oxford Group teachings useful for recovering alcoholics, and tosses off a quick

sample of five of the kinds of things which he and the AA movement had found to

be of continuing usefulness.



It is also important to note though that Bill W. did not actually say here that

these were the ONLY five Oxford Group teachings that he was following back at

the end of 1934, or that AA people were following in 1935, 36, and 37. In

context here, Bill W. was trying to give a very short list of only the most

important influences on him back at the end of 1934 when he was first getting

sober himself, which means that all he was really saying was that these were

five OG teachings that he thought were especially useful back at that time.



Anybody who knows the sorts of teachings and practices which were found in

Oxford Group circles c. 1934-1937 can point out many other things which Bill W.

and early AA were pulling from the OG back then, and many other OG teachings and

practices which are still being used in AA today.



Where some of the additional confusion occurs, is that there are also lists of

what we might call an early six step version of what would eventually become the

twelve steps. See for example page 292 in the 3rd edition (page 263 in the 4th

edition), where it says that in very early Akron A.A., "The six steps were:



1. Complete deflation.



2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power.



3. Moral inventory.



4. Confession.



5. Restitution.



6. Continued work with other alcoholics."



The first one, ego deflation, was primarily tied in with psychiatric principles

(see especially the writings of Dr. Harry M. Tiebout, one of AA's early friends)

and not the Oxford Group per se, and the sixth one is coming from Bill W.'s own

personal experience in the period right after he got sober at the end of 1934.

But AA people certainly first realized the importance of the other four steps on

this early list from their association with the Oxford Group when AA had just

begun.



Arthur Sheehan in Message 2286 gives a very thorough list of other early AA

versions of a sort of six-step program.



So the basic answer to your question, Carl, would be that the Oxford Group did

not have five tenets or six tenets, but dozens of different beliefs and

teachings. There was no formal list of five or six which they singled out in

particular which corresponded to Bill W.'s list of five items in the Foreword to

the Second Edition. There was also no "six step program" in the Oxford Group

itself. There was however a kind of informal statement of the AA program

sometimes given during the early period which broke it down into six steps

roughly. Some of these were connected with Oxford Group beliefs and practices,

and others were not.



However, when the Twelve Steps were finally written by Bill W., there were

obviously deep influences still coming from the period when AA had been part of

the Oxford Group. It is still valuable to go back and look at the Oxford Group

if we want to understand how to interpret some of the Twelve Steps. So Step

Eleven, for example, which tells us that we are to pray to God for "knowledge of

His will for us," derives from the Oxford Group's belief in divine guidance, and

so on.



Some of AA's spirituality (for example this belief in praying to receive divine

guidance) was fairly much common Protestant evangelical belief which showed up

in all sorts of evangelical groups during the early twentieth century, but even

in those cases, it was the Oxford Group where Bill W. and Dr. Bob were initially

introduced to them, or at least initially had the importance of these ideas

pounded into their heads!



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2347 johnpine@comcast.net
"The Independent Blonde" Dies in Pennsylvania at age 97 "The Independent Blonde" Dies in Pennsylvania at age 97 4/22/2005 9:36:00 AM


My former sponsor, based in southeastern Pennsylvania, informed me today that

Nancy Flynn, the "Independent Blonde" of the second edition of the Big Book,

passed away on April 16th in Kennett Square, Pennsylvania, at the age of 97. She

was 57 years sober.



Nancy, who was born in Philadelphia and got sober in New York City, was a

speaker at the International Conference in Minneapolis in 2000. She was so tiny

that she had to stand on a platform to reach the microphone but was so spirited

that she received thunderous applause and cheers of "More" from many in the

crowd at the Saturday night main meeting in the Metrodome.



Here is a link to the local newspaper obituary:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14371521&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id=1778\

6&rfi=6




In unity, love and service,



John Pine

Richmond, VA



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2348 kadgen2001
Pre AA recovery Pre AA recovery 4/23/2005 7:45:00 AM


Does anyone have any ideas or information about Wilson's thoughts

regarding pre-AA recovery? And why, with the exception of the 1945

Washingtonian article, he left it unaddressed.



Thanks


0 -1 0 0
2349 Richard Foss
Our will and our lives Our will and our lives 4/24/2005 11:28:00 PM


In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives over.." Why is "will"

singular, and "lives" plural? This was the question at the "meeting after the

meeting," and this one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in

any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes in the various

editions and printings of the Big Book? Any ideas?


0 -1 0 0
2350 saturntad
Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital? Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital? 4/25/2005 11:08:00 AM


On page 56, second paragraph, Fitz Mayo was "approached by an

alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience." Who was this visitor?



Your help would be appreciated.



Sincerely, Tad


0 -1 0 0
2351 Mel Barger
Re: The dozens of Oxford Group tenets The dozens of Oxford Group tenets 4/25/2005 4:31:00 PM


Hi Glenn,

Have you taken into account the six steps Bill W. mentions on page 160 of

"Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age"? The Oxford Groups are listed as a partial

source for these.

It's also interesting that several "lists of six" are bouncing around in this

early history. Writing in The Atlantic Monthly of August 1934, the noted

theologian Henry P. Van Dusen listed six points to cover the Groups' work:

1. Men are sinners

2. Men can be changed.

3. Confession is prerequisite to change.

4. The changed soul has direct access to God.

5. The Age of Miracles has returned.

6. Those who have been changed must change others.

As for The Oxford Group having six specific tenets, Willard Hunter has always

said they didn't.

Mel Barger



IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE pp. 160-161 BILL WILSON WRITES:



"I was in this anything-but-spiritual mood on the night when the Twelve Steps of

Alcoholics Anonymous were written. I was sore and tired clear through. I lay in

bed at 182 Clinton Street with pencil in hand and with a tablet of scratch paper

on my knee. I could not get my mind on the job, much less put my heart in it.

But here was one of those things that had to be done. Slowly my mind came into

some kind of focus.

Since Ebby's visit to me in the fall of 1934 we had gradually evolved what we

called "the word-of-mouth program." Most of the basic ideas had come from the

Oxford Groups, William James, and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to considerable

variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent procedure which comprised

six steps. These were approximately as follows:

1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over alcohol.

2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.

3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence.

4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our drinking.

5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward in money or

prestige.

6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to practice these

precepts.

This was the substance of what, by the fall of 1938, we were telling newcomers.

Several of the Oxford Groups' other ideas and attitudes had been definitely

rejected, including any which could involve us in theological controversy. In

important matters there was still considerable disagreement between the Eastern

and the Midwestern viewpoints. Our people out there were still active Oxford

Group members, while we in New York had withdrawn a year before. In Akron and

vicinity they still talked about the Oxford Groups' absolutes: absolute honesty,

absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. This dose was found

to be too rich for New Yorkers, and we had abandoned the expressions."


0 -1 0 0
2352 Diz Titcher
Re: Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital? Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital? 4/28/2005 5:56:00 AM


QUESTION from "saturntad" <saturntad@aol.com>

On page 56, second paragraph, Fitz Mayo was "approached by an alcoholic who had

known a spiritual experience." Who was this visitor?



ANSWER from Diz Ticher (and also from Bill Lash):



Bill Wilson


0 -1 0 0
2353 Rob White
Re: Our will and our lives Our will and our lives 4/26/2005 8:42:00 AM


its english.

it doesn't make cents.

it just sounds better that weigh.



>>> richfoss@sprintmail.com4/25/2005 12:28 AM >>>





In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives over.." Why is "will"

singular, and "lives" plural? This was the question at the "meeting after the

meeting," and this one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in

any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes in the various

editions and printings of the Big Book? Any ideas?















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2354 Alex H.
Re: Our will and our lives Our will and our lives 4/27/2005 1:04:00 AM


> In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives

> over.." Why is "will" singular, and "lives" plural? This

> was the question at the "meeting after the meeting," and this

> one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in

> any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes

> in the various editions and printings of the Big Book? Any

> ideas?



Yes.



Assuming that this is not a simple mistake in grammar.... I

suggest that "our will" might refer to our collective will.

While we might collectively act as a single person, we cannot

live as single person so we might say "We dedicate our

collective will and our individual lives to our Higher Power."



Good question.



Alex H.


0 -1 0 0
2355 Glenn Chesnut
"Checking" other people in the Oxford Group "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group 4/29/2005 3:24:00 PM


shaynamedel@yahoo.com wrote in asking about one aspect of the Oxford Group

practice of "checking" other members. In OG literature and practice, sometimes

that word was used to describe one OG member walking up to another OG member and

"taking the other person's inventory," as we would put it in AA terminology.



(In my understanding, the word "checking" could also be used to refer to another

element in their program, where it was part of the introduction of newcomers

into the program, done with the intention of producing "change" in the newcomer,

that is, a fundamental alteration of the person's basic attitude towards life,

where the person would become willing to make restitution for any wrongs done,

and take up a whole new way of life.)



The sense of the word that we are interested in here, however, is illustrated in

a story told by J. D. Holmes, the tenth person to get sober in A.A., who

eventually left Akron and started the first A.A. group in Indiana. I am quoting

here from "How A.A. Came to Indiana," see http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html ,

which in turn is quoting from Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (New York:

Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 1980), p. 140.



<<When the alcoholics in Akron were still meeting with the Oxford Group, J. D.

said that there was one woman who "used to get on my nerves with her constant

chatter. One day, I called her into T. Henry's study and said, 'I don't like you

for some reason or other.'" (In the Oxford Group, you were supposed to "check"

people like that, as they called it.)



"'You interrupt and talk too much. I'm getting a lot of resentment here, and I

don't like it, and I'm afraid I'll get drunk over it.'



"She laughed and said something. Then we sat down and had a very pleasant visit.

And I lost all resentment.">>



With a group of alcoholics, as opposed to polite, well-behaved normal OG

members, this sort of thing would obviously start wild, angry shouting matches

on many occasions, and maybe even worse. So in the A.A. program, this practice

of criticizing other people's behavior to their face in this kind of way was

eventually called "taking someone else's inventory," and strongly discouraged.



The question which shaynamedel@yahoo.com raises is, can anyone tell us when

checking other people like this first began to be rejected as an A.A. practice?

And can anyone tell us if there are places in the early A.A. literature talking

about the break with the OG and discussing this particular issue?



Also, it would be useful if some of our real OG experts could tell us more about

"checking" in the Oxford Group, including the way it was practiced on newcomers

when they first came in, in order to produce people who had been "changed."



Moderator



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2356 Julie
13th stepping 13th stepping 4/25/2005 5:01:00 PM


Where did the term "13th stepping" come from? When did AA people first start

using this phrase to refer to men AA members hitting on new women in the program

(and vice versa), pretending that they were going to "help" the newcomer

understand the program?


0 -1 0 0
2357 Carl P.
The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story 4/26/2005 8:50:00 PM


Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who committed

suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?



Mnay Thanks

Carl P

Enfield UK


0 -1 0 0
2358 erstwhile_erratic_aa
ICYPAA archives ICYPAA archives 4/29/2005 7:10:00 AM


I was recently elected as the archivist for ICYPAA (International

Conference of Young People in AA). I am hoping to make contact with

some people that have been involved in past years. The 50th ICYPAA is

two years away and I'd like to put together a presentation of archives

for that convention. Interviewing any of the people intimately

involved would be deeply appreciated. I was hopeful some of you

history buffs could help me.



You can email me directly or from www.icypaa.org



Thanks in advance,



Tom Hoban

ICYPAA archivist


0 -1 0 0
2359 lester gother
Re: The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story 4/29/2005 5:26:00 PM


Hi Carl, The man in Bill's story is Bill C. a Canadian attorney. Bill and Lois

were away at Fitz Mayo's in Maryland. It's reported that Bill put his head in

the oven. Seems that it was quite a bitter end!



Love and Service

Lester Gother



------------------------------



"Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net>



His name was Bill C. and the year was 1936. Bill and Lois were off to

Vermont for a visit and Bill C. was house sitting. He hocked all of their

clothing for booze and when the booze was gone he stuck his head in an oven,

turned on the gas.



Diz T.



------------------------------

Original Message From Carl P., Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:50 PM



Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who committed

suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?



Many Thanks, Carl P,Enfield UK























------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2360 ArtSheehan
RE: The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story 4/30/2005 8:56:00 AM


Hi Carl

SOURCE REFERENCES:

AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS

AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS

AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft

cover)

BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)

BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)

EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)

GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft

cover)

GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)

LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

PIO - Pass It On, AAWS

When Bill W returned from Akron, OH in August 1935 he began holding

meetings at his house at 182 Clinton St on Tuesday nights. His home

also became a halfway house, of sorts, for drunks. Ebby T moved in

that November (AACOA 74, BW-RT 225, PIO 160-162, GTBT 96, GB 51, AGAA

145).

The suicide occurred two years later in October 1937. The prior April,

Ebby T got drunk after two years and seven months sobriety. (LR 197,

EBBY 77, BW-FH 63, PIO 177) In august, Bill and Lois stopped attending

Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs separated from the OG. (LR 197,

AACOA vii, 74-76)

Alcoholic residents at 182 Clinton St were Ebby T, Oscar V, Russell R,

Bill C and Florence R (whose Big Book story is A Feminine Victory). In

October 1937, Bill C, a young Canadian (and former attorney who sold

Bill W’s and Lois’ clothes to get liquor) committed suicide in the

house while Bill and Lois were away visiting Fitz M (PIO 165 says

summer of 1936). Florence R, the first woman at Clinton St, later went

to Washington, DC to help Fitz M. She started drinking again in 1939

and later died destitute in 1941. (AACOA 19, AABB 16, BW-RT 237-239,

LR 107)

Cheers

Arthur

_____



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Carl P.

Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:51 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The man who committed suicide in Bill's

story



Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who

committed suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?



Mnay Thanks

Carl P

Enfield UK























_____



Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ?subject=Unsubscrib

e>



* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2361 ArtSheehan
"Checking" other people in the Oxford Group "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group 4/30/2005 12:06:00 PM


To add to Glenn’s commentary, one of the key OG practices was to

“check guidance.” From what I’ve been able to glean from various

readings, the most noble and spiritual context of “check guidance”

would be equivalent to AA’s 11th Step - that is to seek the knowledge

of God’s will in every aspect of life.

It might also include more than one person in the process and occur in

OG meetings. Henrietta Sieberling reputedly used this approach on Dr

Bob to get him to start admitting his alcohol problem. In the

illustration cited by Glenn, it could also involve the principles of

taking a moral inventory and honestly discussing it with someone else

(Steps 4 thru 10). While some may brand the example as “taking someone

else’s inventory” it really doesn’t depart that much from the type of

discussion that goes on between a member and his/her sponsor or

trusted AA friend.

The following is a rather lengthy timeline to highlight the influence

of the Oxford Group on the founding and practices of AA. The size of

this message will probably result in it being truncated in the AAHL

on-line archives, but the email version should arrive intact. Source

references are noted at the end of the message.

Timeline

1908 - Jul, Frank N D Buchman arrived in England to attend the Keswick

Convention of evangelicals. After hearing a sermon by a woman

evangelist, Jessie Penn-Lewis, he experienced a profound spiritual

surrender and later helped another attendee to go through the same

experience. His experiences became the key to the rest of his life’s

work. Returning to the US, he started his “laboratory years” working

out the principles he would later apply on a global scale. (NG 9, NW

32-45, PIO 130)

1918 - Jan, Frank Buchman met Sam Shoemaker in Peking (now Beijing)

China. Shoemaker had a spiritual conversion experience and became a

devoted member of Buchman’s First Century Christian Fellowship. (NW

29, 47-52, RAA 117-118, AGAA 209)

1921 - Frank Buchman was invited to visit Cambridge, England. His

movement The First Century Christian Fellowship would later become the

Oxford Group and receive wide publicity during the 1920’s and 1930’s.

Core principles consisted of the “four absolutes” (of honesty,

unselfishness, purity and love - believed to be derived from scripture

in the Sermon on the Mount). Additionally the OG advocated the “five

C’s” (confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and continuance)

and “five procedures” (1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God’s

direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution and 5. Sharing - for

witness and confession). (DBGO 53-55, CH 3) (GB 45 states Buchman

dated the founding and name of the OG when he met with undergraduates

from Christ Church College of Oxford U).

1922 - Frank Buchman resigned his job at the Hartford Theological

Seminary to pursue a wider calling. Over the next few years, he worked

mostly in universities (Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge). During the

economic depression, students (particularly in Oxford) responded to

his approach and were ordained ministers. Others gave all their time

to working with him. (www)

1928 - Summer (?), a group of Rhodes Scholars returned home to S.

Africa, from Oxford U, England to tell how their lives changed through

meeting Frank Buchman. A railway employee labeled their train

compartment The Oxford Group. The press took it up and the name stuck

(the name First Century Christian Fellowship faded). (RAA 120, www)

1931 - Dec, Russell (Bud) Firestone (alcoholic son of Akron, OH

business magnate Harvey Firestone Sr.) was introduced to Sam Shoemaker

by James Newton on a train returning from an Episcopal conference in

Denver, CO. Newton was a prominent Oxford Group member and an

executive at Firestone. Bud, who was drinking a fifth or more of

whiskey a day, spiritually surrendered with Shoemaker and was released

from his alcohol obsession. Bud joined the OG and became an active

member (but later returned to drinking). (NW 15, 65, AGAA 8-9, 32-36)

1932 - Rowland H found sobriety through the spiritual practices of the

Oxford Group (it is not clear whether this occurred in Europe or the

US - and it could have occurred in 1931). Rowland was a dedicated OG

member in NY, VT and upper MA and a prominent member of the Calvary

Episcopal Church in NYC. He later moved to Shaftsbury, VT. (NW 10-19,

NG 8-9, PIO 113-114, AGAA 28, 141-144, LOH 277-278, www)

1933

Jan, Harvey Firestone Sr. (grateful for help given his son Bud)

sponsored an Oxford Group conference weekend (DBGO says 10-day house

party) headquartered at the Mayflower Hotel in Akron, OH. Frank

Buchman and 30 members (DBGO says 60) of his team were met at the

train station by the Firestones and Rev Walter Tunks (Firestone’s

minister and rector of St Paul’s Episcopal Church). The event included

300 overseas members of the OG and received widespread news coverage.

The event attracted Henrietta Sieberling, T Henry and Clarace Williams

and Anne Smith. (NW 65-67, CH 2, DBGO 55, AGAA 9, 37-51, 71)

Early, Anne Smith attended meetings of the Oxford Group with her

friend Henrietta Sieberling (whose marriage to J Frederick Sieberling

was crumbling). Anne later persuaded Dr Bob to attend. The meetings

were held on Thursday nights at the West Hill group. (NW 67-68, SI 32,

34, DBGO 53-60, CH 2-3, 28-29) Beer had become legal and Dr Bob

previously went through a beer-drinking phase (“the beer experiment”).

It was not long before he was drinking a case and a half a day

fortifying the beer with straight alcohol. In his Big Book story, Bob

says that this was around the time when he was introduced to the OG.

He participated in the OG for 2 ½ years before meeting Bill. (DBGO 42,

AABB 177-178, NW 62)

1934

Jul, Ebby T was approached in Manchester, VT by his friends Cebra

Graves ~ (an attorney) and F Sheppard (Shep) Cornell ~ (a NY

stockbroker). Both were Oxford Group members who had done considerable

drinking with Ebby and were abstaining from drinking. They informed

Ebby of the OG in VT but he was not quite ready yet to stop drinking.

(EBBY 51-55, PIO 113)

Aug, Cebra G and Shep C vacationed at Rowland H’s house in Bennington,

VT. Cebra learned that Ebby T was about to be committed to Brattleboro

Asylum. Cebra, Shep and Rowland decided to make Ebby “a project.” (NG

309) Rowland H and Cebra G persuaded a VT court judge (Cebra's father

Collins) to parole Ebby T into their custody. Ebby had first met

Rowland only shortly before. In the fall, Rowland took Ebby to NYC

where he sobered up with the help of the Oxford Group at the Calvary

Mission. (RAA 151, AACOA vii, NW 20-21, 26, EBBY 52-59, NG 9-10, PIO

115, AGAA 155-156)

Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the Calvary Mission and working

with the Oxford Group, heard about Bill W’s problems with drinking. He

phoned Lois who invited him over for dinner. (EBBY 66) Ebby visited

Bill W at 182 Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one

alcoholic talking to another.” (AACOA vii, 58-59) A few days later,

Ebby returned with Shep C. They spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group.

Bill did not think too highly of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited

several times, once even staying for dinner. (AACOA vii, NG 17-18,

311, BW-FH 57-58, NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192)

Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the Calvary Mission on 23rd St.

He showed up drunk with a drinking companion found along the way (Alec

the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the service wanting to speak. On the

verge of being ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate of beans.

Bill later joined the penitents and drunkenly “testified” at the

meeting. (AACOA 59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60, NW 23, PIO

116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156-159, EBBY 66-69)

Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had

his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got

financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA

61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31).

Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the

Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep

depression (his “deflation at depth”) and had a profound spiritual

experience after crying out “If there be a God, will he show himself.”

Dr Silkworth later assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang

on to what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would

later refer to this as his “white flash” or “hot flash” experience.

(AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO

120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)

Dec 15, Ebby brought Bill W a copy of William James' book The

Varieties of Religious Experience. Bill was deeply inspired by the

book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity or

complete defeat in some vital area of life (hitting bottom), 2)

admission of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a higher power for

help (acceptance). The book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited

in the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152,

NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28)

Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He

and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at

Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary

Church (the OG’s US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park

Ave) and 21st St. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held)

was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St.

(AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB

32-33, AGAA 144)

Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG

alcoholics met at Stewart’s Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission.

Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA

141-142, NG 314)

1935

Early, Bill W worked with alcoholics at the Calvary Mission and Towns

Hospital, emphasizing his "hot flash" spiritual experience. Alcoholic

Oxford Group members began meeting at his home on Clinton St. Bill had

no success sobering up others. (AACOA vii, AABB, BW-FH 69, PIO

131-133)

Mar/Apr, Henrietta Sieberling (nicknamed “Henri”) encouraged by her

friend Delphine Weber, organized a Wednesday-night Oxford Group

meeting at T Henry and Clarace Williams’ house on 676 Palisades Dr.

The meeting was started specifically to help Dr Bob who later

confessed openly about his drinking problem. OG meetings continued at

the William’s house until 1954. (DBGO 56-59, AGAA 103 says May)

Apr, Bill W had a talk with Dr Silkworth who advised him to stop

preaching about his “hot flash” and hit the alcoholics hard with the

medical view. Silkworth advised Bill to break down the strong egos of

alcoholics by telling them about the obsession that condemned them to

drink and allergy that condemned them to go mad or die. It would then

be easier to get them to accept the spiritual solution. (AACOA 13,

67-68, BW-RT 211, NG 25-26, PIO 133) Bill W returned to Wall St and

was introduced to Howard Tompkins of the firm Baer and Co. Tompkins

was involved in a proxy fight to take over control of the National

Rubber Machinery Co. based in Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211, NG 26, BW-FH 74,

PIO 133-134, GB 33)

May, Bill W went to Akron but the proxy fight was quickly lost. He

remained behind at the Mayflower Hotel very discouraged. (BW-RT 212,

PIO 134-135)

May 11, (AGAA says May 10) Bill W, in poor spirits, and tempted to

enter the Mayflower Hotel bar, realized he needed another alcoholic.

He telephoned members of the clergy listed on the lobby directory. He

reached the Rev Walter Tunks who referred him to Norman Sheppard who

then referred him to Henrietta Sieberling (47 years old and an Oxford

Group adherent). Bill introduced himself as “a member of the OG and a

rum hound from NY.” Henrietta met with Bill at her gatehouse (Stan

Hywet Hall) on the Sieberling estate. She arranged a dinner meeting

the next day with Dr Bob and Anne. (AACOA 65-67, SI 21, BW-RT 212-213,

DBGO 60, 63-67, NG 26-28, PIO 134-138, GB 19) Note: some stories

(AACOA 67) say that when Henrietta called Anne, Dr Bob was passed out

under the kitchen table. He was upstairs in bed (re Dr. Bob’s

Nightmare 179, 4th Ed).

May 12, Mother’s Day (AGAA says Mother’s Day was May 11) Bill W (age

39) met Dr Bob (age 55) Anne and their young son Bob (age 17) at

Henrietta Sieberling’s gatehouse at 5PM. Dr Bob, too hung over to eat

dinner, planned to stay only 15 minutes. Privately, in the library,

Bill told Bob of his alcoholism experience in the manner suggested by

Dr Silkworth. Bob opened up and he and Bill talked until after 11PM.

(AACOA vii, 67-70, BW-RT 214-215, DBGO 66-69, NG 28-32, BW-FH 4, GB

21)

May, Bill W wrote a letter to Lois saying that he and Dr Bob tried in

vain to sober up a Dr McKay, ~ a “once prominent surgeon” who

developed into a “terrific rake and drunk” (BW-40 Appendix C).

Henrietta Sieberling arranged for Bill to stay at the Portage Country

Club. (DBGO 70, 77)

Jun, Bill W moved to Dr Bob’s house at the request of Anne Smith. Bill

insisted on keeping two bottles of liquor in the kitchen to prove that

he and Bob could live in the presence of liquor. Both worked with

alcoholics and went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at

the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to

the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73,

DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture

readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians

Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96

says that meetings were held at Dr Bob’s house and moved to the

Williams’ house in late 1936 or early 1937)

1936

Bill W's efforts in working only with alcoholics were criticized by NY

Oxford Group members. Similarly, in Akron, T Henry and Clarace

Williams were criticized as well by OG members who were not supportive

of their efforts being extended primarily to alcoholics. (NG 44-45, NW

73, AGAA 76)

Jun, the Oxford Group was at the height of its popularity. 10,000

people (GB 46 says 5,000) flocked to the Berkshires for a meeting at

Stockbridge, MA. (PIO 170) An OG “house-party” (a cross between a

convention and a retreat) in Birmingham, England drew 15,000. (GB 46,

AAGA 173)

Aug 26, Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group experienced an

international public relations disaster. A NY World Telegram article

by William H Birnie, quoted Buchman as saying, “I thank heaven for a

man like Adolph Hitler, who built a front-line of defense against the

anti-Christ of Communism.” Although the remark was taken out of

context in its reporting, it would plague Buchman’s reputation for

many years. It marked the beginning of the decline of the OG. (NW 30,

96, DBGO 155, BW-FH 96, PIO 170-171, GB 53, AGAA 161)

1937

Early, Bill W and Lois attended a major Oxford Group house party at

the Hotel Thayer in West Point, NY. For the previous 2 ½ years they

had been attending two OG meetings a week. (NW 89)

Late spring, leaders of the Oxford Group at the Calvary Mission

ordered alcoholics staying there not to attend meetings at Clinton St.

Bill W and Lois were criticized by OG members for having “drunks only”

meetings at their home. The Wilson’s were described as “not maximum”

(an OG term for those believed to be lagging in their devotion to OG

principles). (EBBY 75, LR 103, BW-RT 231, NG 45, NW 89-91)

Aug, Bill and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs

separated from the OG. (LR 197, AACOA vii, 74-76)

1938 - Nations of the world armed for World War II and Frank Buchman

called for a “moral and spiritual re-armament” to address the root

causes of the conflict. He renamed the Oxford Group to Moral

Re-Armament. (www, NW 44)

1939

May 10, Led by pioneer member Clarence Snyder ~ (Home Brewmeister) the

Cleveland, OH group met separately from Akron and the Oxford Group at

the home of Albert (Abby) Goldrick ~ (He Thought He Could Drink Like a

Gentleman). This was the first group to call itself Alcoholics

Anonymous. The Clevelanders still sent their most difficult cases to

Dr Bob in Akron for treatment. (AACOA 19-21, NW 94, SI 35, DBGO

161-168, NG 78-79, PIO 224, AGAA 4, 201, 242).

Oct (late), (AACOA viii says summer) Akron members of the “alcoholic

squad” withdrew from the Oxford Group and held meetings at Dr Bob’s

house. It was a painful separation due to the great affection the

alcoholic members had toward T Henry and Clarace Williams. (NW 93-94,

SI 35, DBGO 212-219, NG 81, GTBT 123, AGAA 8-10, 188, 243)

1941 - Nov, Dr Sam Shoemaker left the Oxford Group (then called Moral

Re-Armament) and formed a fellowship named Faith at Work. MRA was

asked to completely vacate the premises at Calvary House. Shoemaker’s

dispute with Buchman was amplified in the press. (EBBY 75-76, AAGA

161, 244)

1949 - Jul 14, in a letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker, Bill W wrote “So

far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA.

It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning.” (AGAA 137)

1961 - Frank N D Buchman died. Moral Re-Armament had declined

significantly in numbers and influence and became headquartered in

Caux, Switzerland. (NW 45, 97-98) In 2001, MRA changed its name to

Initiatives of Change. A month after Buchman’s death Bill W wrote to a

friend regretting that he did not write to Buchman acknowledging his

contributions to the AA movement. (www, PIO 386-387)

SOURCE REFERENCES:

AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS

AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS

AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft

cover)

BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)

BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)

BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography (hard cover)

CH - Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by

Christine Brewer (soft cover)

DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS

EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)

GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft

cover)

GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)

LOH - The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc

LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition, soft cover)

NW - New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)

PIO - Pass It On, AAWS

RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman, nee AA the

Way It Began (soft cover)

SI - Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah (soft cover)

www - Internet Sources (e.g. Google, Microsoft Encarta, etc.)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2362 ny-aa@att.net
Re: "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group 4/29/2005 10:56:00 PM


Checking in the Oxford Groups was not necessarily intrusive

or confrontational. In morning Quiet Time, there would be a

period in which members would write "luminous thoughts" they

received into their Guidance Books. This was at a level

of inspiration that was almost automatic writing. When a

member then read what he had written, it might apply to

some situation he was dealing with or it might not mean

anything to him until later that day.



If a number of OG members were in Quiet Time together, it

was common practice to share what Guidance had been written.

Others might help to Check the interpretation. Sometimes,

what one member had written might match the Guidance that

another had received that same day. This was taken as

further evidence that it was Guidance from God.



Some of this brought criticism to the Oxford Groups that

automatic writing was an occult, not a Christian, practice.


0 -1 0 0
2363 erstwhile_erratic_aa
Origins of 4th step column format Origins of 4th step column format 4/30/2005 8:27:00 AM


I am wondering if anyone out there knows where Bill got the 4th step

format as found in the Big Book? It is clear self-apprasial,

restitution, etc. come from common spiritual practice. But did Bill

get the column format from an early psychologist or the like? The

4th step prayer (the so-called 3 1/2th column) and the looking at our part(the

infamous 4th column), the things he asks us to focus on: self-

esteem, security, ambitions, personal and sex relations. That

troublesome little word fear, etc. Thank you in advance.



Tom Hoban

Marietta, GA.


0 -1 0 0
2364 erstwhile_erratic_aa
3rd legacy voting procedure origins 3rd legacy voting procedure origins 4/30/2005 8:29:00 AM


In a similiar request to the 4th step origins I asked. What about the

3rd legacy voting procedure. It is unique to AA but the recent voting

at the Vatican seems very similiar. Any ideas where Bill got this

format for voting?



Tom Hoban

Marietta, GA.


0 -1 0 0
2365 ny-aa@att.net
WayBack Machine Internet Archive WayBack Machine Internet Archive 4/30/2005 8:22:00 PM


AA's presence on the internet is part of AA history.

Much of that history has been archived and is available

on-line. You can get to it through the WayBack Archive:



http://www.archive.org/web/web.php



When that page comes up, enter a URL that interests you.

There is a good chance that versions of that web page

will be available going back a number of years. If the

exact page you want did not exist in the past, you may

have to start with the root URL and work from there.



Here is an example of the history of http://aa.org/

It was also available as http://alcoholics-anonymous.org/

so try it both ways. Both go back to 1996 but they are

slightly different:



http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://aa.org/

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://alcoholics-anonymous.org/



Some of the images may not be available in the WayBack

Archive but you get a good idea of what was on a page.

I believe I've seen cases where a missing image became

available a day later. If you don't get any response,

try again when the server is less busy.



There is even a link that you can drag to your browser's

toolbar to perform WayBack lookup on what you are seeing

at the moment.


0 -1 0 0
2366 gvnurse2001
Bill W Quote Bill W Quote 4/30/2005 10:33:00 PM


There is a quote attributed to Bill W, where (talking about

Television) he says something about "The future of AA depends on how

we use this new technology." It was widely circulated in Online AA.

Can anyone give me the exact wording of the quote and tell me where it

originated?

Thanks,

Sharon H in California


0 -1 0 0
2367 Danny S
Bill W.''s Golf Game Bill W.''s Golf Game 4/30/2005 11:10:00 PM


We all know that Bill Wilson never did manage to "overtake" Walter

Hagen, the flamboyant golf champion. Bill's golf playing is mentioned

in several books, including the Big Book.



But, does anyone know of any mention, anywhere, that would give even a

hint of just what kind of game Bill played?



I like substantiated facts regarding our history, but I'd settle for

hearsay on this one.



How good a golfer was he in fact?



Peace,



Danny S


0 -1 0 0
2368 jimmy
Re: List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism 5/1/2005 12:30:00 AM


In addition to these movies, there was a made for tv film (like

hallmark hall of fame, but it was ABC Afterschool Special), entitled

"Sarah T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic."



I know a number of teenagers in AA, who actually refer to that film as

instrumental in carrying the message to them.



Jimmy Moss, Burbank, CA USA


0 -1 0 0
2369 Jim Blair
Re: "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group 4/29/2005 6:57:00 PM


Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group



Here are a couple of explainations from Bill W.







7Q - What did A.A. learn from the Oxford Group and why did they leave them?



7A - AA's first step was derived largely from my own physician, Dr.

Silkworth, and my sponsor Ebby and his friend, from Dr, Jung of Zurich. I

refer to the medical hopelessness of alcoholism - our 'powerlessness' over

alcohol.



The rest of the Twelve Steps stem directly from those Oxford Group teachings

that applied specifically to us. Of course these teachings were nothing new;

we might have obtained them from your own Church. They were, in effect, an

examination of conscience, confession, restitution, helpfulness to others,

and prayer.



I should acknowledge our great debt to the Oxford Group people. It was

fortunate that they laid particular emphasis on spiritual principles that we

needed. But in fairness it should also be said that many of their attitudes

and practices did not work well at all for us alcoholics. These were

rejected one by one and they caused our later withdrawal from this society

to a fellowship of our own - today's Alcoholics Anonymous.



Perhaps I should specifically outline why we felt it necessary to part

company with them. To begin with, the climate of their undertaking was not

well suited to us alcoholics. They were aggressively evangelical, they

sought to re-vitalize the Christian message in such a way as to "change the

world." Most of us alcoholics had been subjected to pressure of evangelism

and we never liked it. The object of saving the world - when it was still

very much in doubt if we could save ourselves - seemed better left to other

people. By reason of some of its terminology and by exertion of huge

pressure, the Oxford Group set a moral stride that was too fast,

particularly for our newer alcoholics. They constantly talked of Absolute

Purity, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Honesty, and Absolute Love. While

sound theology must always have its absolute values, the Oxford Groups

created the feeling that one should arrive at these destinations in short

order, maybe be next Thursday! Perhaps they didn't mean to create such an

impression but that was the effect. Sometimes their public "witnessing" was

of such a character to cause us to be shy. They also believed that by

"converting" prominent people to their beliefs, they would hasten the

salvation of many who were less prominent. This attitude could scarcely

appeal to the average drunk since he was anything but distinguished.



The Oxford Group also had attitudes and practices which added up to a highly

coercive authority. This was exercised by "teams" of older members. They

would gather in meditation and receive specific guidance for the life

conduct of newcomers. This guidance could cover all possible situations from

the most trivial to the most serious. If the directions so obtained were not

followed, the enforcement machinery began to operate. It consisted of a sort

of coldness and aloofness which made recalcitrants feel they weren't wanted.

At one time, for example, a "team" got guidance for me to the effect that I

was no longer to work with alcoholics. This I could not accept.



Another example: When I first contacted the Oxford Groups, Catholics were

permitted to attend their meetings because they were strictly

non-denominational. But after a time the Catholic Church forbade its members

to attend and the reason for this seemed a good one. Through the Oxford

Group "teams", Catholic Church members were actually receiving specific

guidance for their lives; they were often infused with the idea that their

Church had become rather horse-and-buggy, and needed to be "changed."

Guidance was frequently given that contributions should be made to the

Oxford Groups. In a way this amounted to putting Catholics under a separate

ecclesiastical jurisdiction. At this time there were few Catholics in our

alcoholic groups. Obviously we could not approach any more Catholics under

Oxford Group auspices. Therefore this was another, and the basic reason for

the withdrawal of our alcoholic crowd from the Oxford Groups notwithstanding

our great debt to them. (N.C.C.A. 'Blue Book', Vol. 12, 1960)

Another answer.

7A - The first A.A. group had come into being but we still had no name.

Those were the years of flying blind, those ensuing two or three years. A

slip in those days was a dreadful calamity. We would look at each other and

wonder who might be next. Failure! Failure! Failure was our constant

companion.



I returned home from Akron now endowed with a more becoming humility and

less preaching and a few people began to come to us, a few in Cleveland and

Akron. I had got back into business briefly and again Wall Street collapsed

and took me with it as usual. So I set out West to see if there was

something I could do in that country. Dr. Bob and I of course had been

corresponding but it wasn't until one late fall afternoon in 1937 that I

reached his house and sat in his living room. I can recall the scene as

though it were yesterday and we got out a pencil and paper and we began to

put down the names of those people in Akron, New York and that little

sprinkling in Cleveland who had been dry a while and despite the large

number of failures it finally burst upon us that forty people had got a real

release and had significant dry time behind them. I shall never forget that

great and humbling hour of realization. Bob and I saw for the first time

that a new light had begun to shine down upon us alcoholics, had begun to

shine upon the children of the night.



That realization brought an immense responsibility. Naturally, we thought at

once, how shall what we forty know be carried to the millions who don't

know? Within gunshot of this house there must be others like us who are

thoroughly bothered by this obsession. How shall they know? How is this

going to be transmitted?



Up to this time as you must be aware, A.A. was utterly simple. It filled the

full measure of simplicity as is since demanded by a lot of people. I guess

we old timers all have a nostalgia about those halcyon days of simplicity

when thank God there were no founders and no money and there were no meeting

places, just parlors. Annie and Lois baking cakes and making coffee for

those drunks in the living room. We didn't even have a name! We just called

ourselves a bunch of drunks trying to get sober. We were more anonymous than

we are now. Yes, it was all very simple. But, here was a new realization,

what was the responsibility of the forty men to those who did not know?



Well, I have been in the world of business, a rather hectic world of

business, the world of Wall Street. I suspect that I was a good deal of a

promoter and a bit of a salesman, rather better than I am here today. So I

began to think in business man's terms. We had discovered that the hospitals

did not want us drinkers because, we were poor payers and never got well.

So, why shouldn't we have our own hospitals and I envisioned a great chain

of drunk tanks and hospitals spreading across the land. Probably, I could

sell stocks in those and we could damn well eat as well as save drunks.



Then too, Dr. Bob and I recalled that it had been a very tedious and slow

business to sober up forty people, it had taken about three years and in

those days we old timers had the vainglory to suppose that nobody else could

really do this job but us. So we naturally thought in terms of having

alcoholic missionaries, no disparagement to missionaries to be sure. In

other words, people would be grubstaked for a year or two, moved to Chicago,

St. Louis, Frisco and so on and start little centers and meanwhile we would

be financing this string of drunk tanks and began to suck them into these

places. Yes, we would need missionaries and hospitals! Then came one

reflection that did make some sense.



It seemed very clear that what we had already found out should be put on

paper. We needed a book, so Dr. Bob called a meeting for the very next night

and in that little meeting of a dozen and a half, a historic decision was

taken which deeply affected our destiny. It was in the living room of a

nonalcoholic friend who let us come there because his living room was bigger

than the Smith's parlor and he loved us. I too, remember that day as if it

were yesterday.



So, Smithy and I explained this new obligation which depended on us forty.

How are we to carry this message to the ones who do not know? I began to

wind up my promotion talk about the hospitals and the missionaries and the

book and I saw their faces fall and straight away that meeting divided into

three significant parts. There was the promoter section of which I was

definitely one. There was the section that was indifferent and there was

what you might call the orthodox section.



The orthodox section was very vocal and it said with good reason, "Look! Put

us into business and we are lost. This works because it is simple, because

everybody works at it, because nobody makes anything out of it and because

no one has any axe to grind except his sobriety and the other guy's. If you

publish a book we will have infinite quarrels about the damn thing. It will

get us into business and the clinker of the orthodox section was that our

Lord, Himself, had no book.



Well, it was impressive and events proved that the orthodox people were

practically right, but, thank God, not fully right. Then there were the

indifferent ones who thought, well, if Smitty and Bill think we ought to do

these things well its all right with us. So the indifferent ones, plus the

promoters out voted the orthodoxy and said "If you want to do these things

Bill, you go back to New York where there is a lot of dough and you get the

money and then we'll see."



Well, by this time I'm higher than a kite you know. Promoters can stay high

on something besides alcohol. I was already taking about the greatest

medical development, greatest spiritual development, greatest social

development of all time. Think of it, forty drunks. (Chicago, Ill., February

1951)


0 -1 0 0
2370 Ernest Kurtz
Re: "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group 4/29/2005 7:45:00 PM


Many books on the OG are often recommended, but rarely the best on

matters such as this: Walter Houston Clark, *The Oxford Group: Its

History and Significance*. Its 1951 publication date makes it all the more

credible for matters concerning the OG and AA. (BTW: Clark treats briefly of AA

at the conclusion of his book.) Should be available in most libraries.



ernie kurtz


0 -1 0 0
2371 Jim Blair
Re: Origins of 4th step column format Origins of 4th step column format 5/2/2005 2:37:00 PM


Tom wrote



I am wondering if anyone out there knows where Bill got the 4th step

format as found in the Big Book?



In the OG book "For Sinners Only" It was an oral process to get at the root

of the problem.

Jim


0 -1 0 0
2372 Russ S
Re: Bill W Quote Bill W Quote 5/2/2005 2:51:00 PM


I believe the quote you are referring to is from a November 1960 Grapevine

article by Bill called: Freedom Under God: The Choice is Ours. The theme of the

article was The Twelve Traditions and Bill was speaking of the 11th Tradition.

The quote(?):



Therefore nothing can matter more to the future welfare of AA than the manner in

which we use this colossus of communication. Used unselfishly and well, the

results can surpass our present imagination. Should we handle this great

instrument badly, we shall be shattered by the ego demands of our own

people--often with the best of intention on their part. Against all this, the

sacrificial spirit of AA's anonymity at the top public level is literally our

shield and our buckler. Here again we must be confident that love of AA, and of

God, will always carry the day.



I've heard Don Imus speak about it MSNBC...



What do you suppose Bill would say about the Internet?



Russ S

Ogdensburg, NJ





-----Original Message-----

From: gvnurse2001 <cdnurse@foothill.net>

Sent: Apr 30, 2005 11:33 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W Quote





There is a quote attributed to Bill W, where (talking about

Television) he says something about "The future of AA depends on how

we use this new technology."  It was widely circulated in Online AA.

Can anyone give me the exact wording of the quote and tell me where it

originated?

Thanks,

Sharon H in California


0 -1 0 0
2373 DeafAA@aol.com
Re: Re: List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism 5/2/2005 11:38:00 AM


Hello:



I am wondering if they do still have VHS or DVD for "Sarah T:Portrait of a

Teenage Alcoholic"? I can't find where I can order it.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2374 Adam Martin
The man hiding in a bar The man hiding in a bar 5/2/2005 4:41:00 PM


I was wondering if anybody could anwser my question. Nobody in my town has a

100% for sure anwser.



My question is, does anybody know who the doctor was talking about in his story

on pg. xxxi third paragraph (fourth edition). Maybe tell me who the case was

and who the prominent doctor was who referred the case to Dr. Silkworth.



"When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in by a

physician prominent in New York. The patient ... had hidden in a deserted barn

determined to die."



Thank for everything guys,



Adam Martin Fargo, ND







------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

















---------------------------------





Yahoo! Groups Links





To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.









---------------------------------

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2375 Lou M
Re: Bill W Quote Bill W Quote 5/3/2005 4:46:00 AM


SEE THE LANGUAGE OF THE HEART FOR AN EASILY AVAILABLE TEXT OF THIS QUOTE.



It was in the Nov. 1960 Grapevine and is reprinted on pp. 319-320 of The

Language of the Heart. While discussing Tradition 11 and personal anonymity,

Bill writes (starting at the bottom of page 319):



"A vast communications net now covers the earth, even to our remotest reaches.

Granting all its huge public benefits, this limitless world forum is,

nevertheless a hunting ground for all those who would seek money, acclaim, and

power at the expense of society in general. Here the forces of good and evil

are locked in struggle. All that is shoddy and destructive contest all that is

best.



"Therefore nothing can matter more to the future welfare of AA than the manner

in which we use this colossus of communication. Used unselfishly and well, the

results can surpass our present imagination. Should we handle this great

instrument badly, we shall be shattered by the ego demands of our own

people--often with the best intention on their part. Against all this, the

sacrificial spirit of AA's anonymity at the top public level is literally our

shield and our buckler. Here again we must be confident that love of AA, and of

God, will carry the day."



The first two sentences of the second paragraph are the most often quoted and

probably more often misquoted. I've been misquoting it for years as "Nothing

matters more to A.A.'s future welfare than the manner in which we use this

colossus of modern communication. Used unselfishly and well, it can produce

results surpassing our present imagination...." Fortunately the meaning hasn't

changed, and if the medium under discussion has changed from TV or other news or

communication networks to the Internet, the message is just as strong and

important.



Lou M.

Somerville, NJ


0 -1 0 0
2376 Mitchell K.
Re: Origins of 4th step column format Origins of 4th step column format 5/3/2005 4:30:00 PM


Also reference V. Kitchen's "I Was A Pagan" where the OG Game of Truth was laid

out in columns with similar subject content. When you see this format it is

extremely similar to the columns in the BB



Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:



In the OG book "For Sinners Only" it was an oral process to get at the root of

the problem.


0 -1 0 0
2377 Glenn Chesnut
13th stepping and "90-in-90" 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 5/10/2005 1:19:00 PM


There were two questions raised a couple of weeks ago, about "13th stepping" and

"90 meetings in 90 days."



On Apr 25, 2005 "Julie" < zulie55@yahoo.com > asked about the term 13th

stepping: "When did AA people first start using this phrase to refer to men AA

members hitting on new women in the program (and vice versa), pretending that

they were going to 'help' the newcomer understand the program?"



Gilbert Gamboa < text164@yahoo.com > raised a similar question about the phrase

"90 meetings in 90 days." He believes that this recommendation came into AA

teaching only in fairly recent years, and is a comparatively recent innovation.



-----------------------------------



"Jan Baldwin" < jbaldwin@imbris.com > and billyk < billyk3@yahoo.com > were also

involved in the discussion.



-----------------------------------



MODERATOR: I asked one of the good old-timers about this, Sgt. Bill S. (Sonoma,

California), who got sober in 1948, and had a good deal of personal experience

of good early AA in the New York City area (especially on Long Island), in

Akron, in Texas in the 1950's, and later in California (where he moved in 1966).

He was closely associated at various points with Mrs. Marty Mann, Sister

Ignatia, and Searcy, among other well-known early AA figures. This is taken from

the two emails he wrote in response to my questions.



-----------------------------------



SGT. BILL S. < SAAA1948@aol.com >



Dear Glenn: We used to think that all the women who were either alcoholics or

the wife of an alcoholic, were the enemy. I think the reason Al-Anon became an

organization was because of the paranoia that existed among the members of AA.



This morning has been wonderful for me. I have just joined the Pearl Harbor

Survivors and this morning I got a call from two members, one the president of

the group. The first call started with, "Is this the Primo Kid?" Primo was the

name of the beer in Honolulu, and when I pitched baseball on the Army Air Corps

team in Hawaii before the Second World War began, the fans up in the stands used

to shout when I came out to the pitcher's mound and call me the Primo Kid. I

almost collapsed when he identified himself. It was one of the men I used to

play baseball with and both he and the man who called later were members of my

outfit. When I told the one I was in AA for 56 years and had written two books

he said I am happy that you no longer drink but I am not surprised that you

wrote the books. Everyone thought that you were smart but a drunk. The second

call was from another member of my Squadron who is now the president of the

Pearl Harbor group.



I must admit that I never heard the term "13th Stepping" until I moved to

California in 1966 and even then it was after that, in the 1980's, that I first

heard the term used. However I am familiar with the basis for this slogan. When

I first got sober in 1948, there was a lot of suspicion surrounding the

relationship between AA members and the spouses of the alcoholics.



Early on, it was suggested that men only sponsor men and women only sponsor

women. The basis for this was the suspicion that there was a lot of sexual

activity between alcoholic women and male AA members.



You are right on with your reference to the transference phenomenon, which

particularly affects the therapeutic relationship between a male psychiatrist

and a female patient (and vice versa), but in fact will affect any counseling

relationship, including AA sponsorship. The female patient begins to develop

romantic feelings toward the male psychiatrist because of the degree of

psychological intimacy involved (or vice versa with a female psychiatrist and a

male patient). There is a tendency for some to put desire before honor.



I recall that there were very few females in my group in Valley Stream, New

York, when I first got sober, and those who did attend meetings were assumed to

be loose. Dependents of alcoholics attended the meetings until Al-Anon was

formed and most of them became part of that group. (Many female alcoholics

attend Al-Anon meetings today and vice versa.)



I truly believe that Lois assisted in the formation of the first Al-Anon group

because of Bill's lust.



I do not know the origin of the "13th Stepping" saying but it was after I came

to California in 1966.



Also 90 meetings in 90 days was never advocated until treatment centers sprang

up and recommended that amount of time to enhance recovery (also the need for

cash for treating the alcoholic).



Because I was in the military during the earlier days, many things of an

historical significance in AA in the civilian sphere were unknown to me. I am

sorry I cannot be more specific.



Love Bill



-----------------------------------



REFERENCES:



Sgt. Bill S., On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program:

The Air Force Sergeant Who Beat Alcoholism and Taught Others to Do the Same

(2003).



Also http://hindsfoot.org/bsv02psy.html , http://hindsfoot.org/bsv01thr.html ,

http://hindsfoot.org/bswnorm.html , http://hindsfoot.org/kbs2.html ,

http://hindsfoot.org/kbs3.html











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2378 philip luppy
Nancy Olsen Nancy Olsen 5/10/2005 10:06:00 AM


Nancy Olson; Hill Aide and Lobbyist





By Adam Bernstein

Washington Post Staff Writer

Friday, April 15, 2005; Page B06





Nancy Moyer Olson, 75, who died of congestive heart failure March 25 at a care

center in Roanoke, was a legislative aide to two Democratic U.S. senators and

later became a lobbyist on trade issues. She also was a former actress and

recovering alcoholic who briefly aspired to be a nun.



Ms. Olson spent the past decade lecturing internationally about alcoholism;

starting a Web site about the history of Alcoholics Anonymous; and writing a

book, "With a Lot of Help From Our Friends" (2003), about her role working with

Sen. Harold E. Hughes (D-Iowa), one of the first politicians to publicly

acknowledge his alcoholism.



Ms. Olson was born in Kingston, Pa., to an alcoholic father who later fell to

his death from a hospital window. She served in the Women's Army Corps in the

late 1940s in Panama and then briefly married a soldier, who brought her to his

home in Chicago.



Bored as a housewife, she applied for a secretarial job and won a position

working for philosopher Mortimer J. Adler at the University of Chicago. She was

insecure about her lack of formal education and was uneasy about being called

"God's secretary" -- a reference to Adler's reputation.



She recalled frequent conversations with Adler, who tried to encourage her by

giving her books to read. "Here, I want you to read this chapter," she recalled

him telling her after one talk. "You will see that Aristotle agrees with you."



As a young woman, she bore a vague resemblance to Grace Kelly and longed for an

acting career. Adler helped her with a letter of introduction to study at the

Pasadena Playhouse in California, but she had little luck impressing film

studios. "The big Hollywood producers," she once wrote, "never tumbled to my

charms."



Instead, she traveled the Caribbean with a British banker and began her descent

into alcoholism. Having her "breakfast beer" one morning in 1965, she saw a

program about alcoholism and instantly saw herself reflected in the testimonies

of those who similarly suffered from a need to drink.



"I had known for some time that I was an alcoholic, but I thought it was my

secondary problem," she wrote.



"I believed that I was insane, and that was why I drank too much and thus had

become an alcoholic. (God knows I had been doing a lot of insane things.)"



She joined Alcoholics Anonymous and was doing volunteer work for the Democratic

National Committee in Chicago in 1968 when she met Hughes, who was impressed

with her life story and invited her to Washington to join his staff. She worked

for the special subcommittee on alcoholism and narcotics and played a key role

in drafting the so-called Hughes Act, which established the National Institute

on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.



She helped Hughes in his unofficial work on Capitol Hill as a counselor to

alcoholics.



After Hughes left political life to pursue the ministry, she joined the staff of

Sen. Harrison A. "Pete" Williams Jr. (D-N.J.).



She also suffered a nervous breakdown and, long agnostic, converted to

Catholicism.



Discouraged by the 1980 Republican landslide election and feeling embattled by

the liquor lobby, she entered the Visitation of Holy Mary, a cloistered

monastery in Georgetown, with the idea of becoming a nun. She was 51, and

various physical ailments, especially weakened legs, prevented her from

completing many of the conditions of sisterhood that required long periods of

standing.



She resumed her political career as a legislative analyst and lobbyist until her

retirement in 1995.



Her marriage to Everett Olson ended in divorce. Survivors include a sister, Jean

Earl of Roanoke.



© 2005 The Washington Post Company



FOR PHOTOS AND MORE DETAILS SEE:

<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html>

<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem2.html>

<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem3.html>

<http://hindsfoot.org/nomem4.html>


0 -1 0 0
2379 ny-aa@att.net
Success vs. Gloom-and-Doom Success vs. Gloom-and-Doom 5/9/2005 11:56:00 AM


-------------------------------

[MODERATOR'S SUMMARY OF THE DATA GIVEN BELOW: 56% of those who stay three months

are still active in AA at the end of a year. That first year is the hardest:

the retention rates dramatically improve for those who have earned their

one-year chip. The current U.S. population (U.S. Census Bureau) is 296 million,

with around 220 million over eighteen years of age. In the data given below,

the NIAAA estimates that roughly 8% of the U.S. population over age 18 abuse

alcohol (17.6 million out of 220 million), but that there are only 7.9 million

true alcoholics over eighteen years of age in the U.S., which is 3.6% of the

population over eighteen years of age. With roughly 1 million AA members, that

means that around 12 to 13% of these genuine alcoholics (about one out of eight)

is in AA at this point.]

-------------------------------



FROM <ny-aa@att.net>:



There is a tendency of some observers to offer a pessimistic view of A.A. today.

This becomes the basis for advocating return to the practices of some time in

the past. Often, they back this up with a misreading of one particular graph in

a summary of the 1977 through 1989 Triennial Surveys.



"Percent of Those Coming to AA Within the First Year Who Have Remained the

Indicated Number of Months." It graphed the "Month" and "Dist" (distribution)

columns here. Note the "Dist" column adds up to 100. It is NOT a retention

percentage. For every 100 people surveyed with under a year, 13% were in their

2nd month and 9% were in their 4th month. The "New" column I added is scaled to

show retention. The "3mo" column tracks retention after the usual introductary

period when, presumably, only "real alcoholics" (about half) will stay.



Month Dist . New . 3mo

1 ... 19 ... 100

2 ... 13 .... 68

3 ... 10 .... 53

4 .... 9 .... 47 . 100 <=== Over 3 months

5 .... 8 .... 42 .. 89

6 .... 7 .... 42 .. 83

7 .... 7 .... 36 .. 77

8 .... 6 .... 34 .. 72

9 .... 6 .... 32 .. 68

10 ... 6 .... 30 .. 64

11 ... 6 .... 28 .. 60

12 ... 5 .... 26 .. 56



The Dist(1)=19 does NOT mean that "81% dropped out in a month." Dist(3)=10 does

NOT mean that "90% leave within three months." And Dist(12)=5 does NOT mean that

"95 abandon active participation in AA inside of a year." What it does show is

that 56% of those who stay three months are still active in A.A. at the end of a

year. Other Survey results show substantially better retention rates after the

first year. Here is a typical example of misinterpretation of the table.



> "Those of us who have survived in A.A. for a

> good many years know for a certainty the dire

> failure statistics of today -- statistics reported

> by A.A.'s own service structure:

> 81% of new members drop out in a month;

> 90% leave within three months; and

> 95% abandon the active participation in AA inside of a year."



That's just not true. Another misreading of statistics is to forget that not

everyone who shows up at an A.A. meeting is an alcoholic. And not everyone with

"a drinking problem" is an alcoholic (yet) either. For example, in 2002 the

National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism said that there were 9.7

million "alcohol abusers" and 7.9 million "alcohol dependent people" over age

eighteen. There are clear definitions for these two categories. Only the 7.9

million are what A.A. calls "real alcoholics." These NIAAA numbers are misquoted

as:



> "And in America, there are less than a million

> AAs at any given time out of an estimated

> eighteen million alcoholics in all."



Eighteen million is the total of "real alcoholics" and "a certain type of hard

drinker." Further, most alcoholics have never tried or even visited Alcoholics

Anonymous and have never made any serious attempt at recovery through any other

means. With that in mind, one million sober American AAs is rather impressive.

It also shows the need to reach out and invite more alcoholics to try Alcoholics

Anonymous. Let's hope the pessimistic message of gloom-and-doom doesn't scare

away and discourage the rest of those who need help.



-------------------------------

[ADDITIONAL NOTE BY MODERATOR: In early AA, they often said that 50% of those

(as they put it) "who made a serious effort" in AA got sober the first time they

tried. Careful reading of the early documents and interviews with old timers

makes it clear that they were not counting those who came to a few meetings but

then fizzled out when they gave their 50% success rate. When early groups gave

their membership figures, they usually made a rough-and-ready but clear

distinction between the numbers of those at their weekly meetings who were just

coming to a few meetings at that point and the numbers of those who were much

more committed members. So early success rates were not actually all that much

different from the present success rate. AA is still extraordinarily effective

today, just as it was in the old days, particularly when we remember that

alcoholism has always been the third leading cause of death in the United States

ever since the 1930's: a fifty percent remission rate for what is frequently a

fatal disease is medically impressive by any standards.]

-------------------------------


0 -1 0 0
2380 Bruce Lallier
Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 5/10/2005 3:09:00 PM


Hi Glen, I first remember hearing 90 & 90 in about 1973 so the person who said

after treatment centers began popping up was just about correct. It was in the

early 70's when insurance carriers started covering the costs when we saw them

popping up like mushrooms in Conn. where I sobered up. High Watch in Kent was

about the only pure treatment center for Alcoholism and was more of a retreat at

that time. A lot af AA history is there and if memory serves me correctly Lois

gave a lot of Bills writtings to the farm. I do know she gave a nice painting of

him which is (was) hung in the room just off the chapel.

A great place but I believe they had to go more treatment to conform to

regulations dictated by the state. I knew Frank J. well as he was from my area

prior to taking over at High Watch and for a while the state was trying to close

the place (early 80's) I do remember conducting some of the morning Chapels

there and always felt honored to be speaking from where Bill so often did as he

was a regular there and brought Ebby there on occasion. He and Marty and some

otheres from NY actually were instrumental in getting it started in I believe

1939.



Bruce L.



------------------------

GLENN C. (SOUTH BEND):

Exactly, just like you say, it was the health insurance providers who were part

of the driving force here. Thank you for bringing that up, because it is

important to understanding what happened. Insurance carriers only began funding

alcoholism rehabilitation after the passing of the Hughes Act at the beginning

of the 1970's (our former moderator Nancy Olson played a major role in helping

to get this act passed, and then implemented with proper funding, which was

equally vital). The spread of more and more alcoholism treatment facilities for

people whose bills were paid by health insurance carriers continued into the

1980's and early 1990's. The insurance carriers then began shutting off the

funding, which caused more and more of the psychiatrically-oriented alcoholism

treatment facilities to begin closing down, so that there are very few of them

left today, compared to the numbers in existence during their hey-day. Nancy

Olson's book makes clear that psychiatrists who had their own theories about how

to treat alcoholism were attempting to grab the government funds provided by the

Hughes Act all through the 1970's, at the expense of AA interests, so this is

not a new conflict. A good deal of Nancy's efforts from 1970-1980 were devoted

to keeping (a) the psychiatrists and (b) those who were really interested only

in drug addiction from taking control of all the U.S. government funding of

alcoholism treatment and diverting it to their own purposes.


0 -1 0 0
2381 Andrew W-S
Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 5/10/2005 3:40:00 PM


I don't know when the expression '13th-stepping' came in, but a lot of us,

including me, wish to God that the practice would die out!



Seriously, though, I also heard of the funeral of an AA member at which the

deceased was said to have 'taken the 13th step', which was to die sober and move

on from this world. I have no idea how widespread that is.



Andrew

(in England)


0 -1 0 0
2382 Mel Barger
Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 5/10/2005 3:41:00 PM


It may be coincidence, but the Oxford Group did have a policy of men

working with men and women working with women. This may have carried over into

AA. As for using 13 for the number, it logically follows just as 19th Hole

suffices for the drinking that follows a golf game!

Mel Barger


0 -1 0 0
2383 Jim Blair
Re: The man hiding in a bar The man hiding in a bar 5/4/2005 2:01:00 PM


Adam wrote, "Maybe tell me who the case was and who the prominent doctor was who

referred the case to Dr. Silkworth."



----------------------------------

Fitz Mayo author of "Our Southern Friend."



Jim

----------------------------------

lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>



The man's name is Fitz Mayo, his story "Our Southern Friend" pg. 497 in the 3rd

edition.

----------------------------------

From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com>



John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo. See posts 2332 & 2333. Dick Spaedt


0 -1 0 0
2384 Roger Wheatley
Re: 3rd legacy voting procedure origins 3rd legacy voting procedure origins 5/4/2005 2:35:00 PM


Pass It On page 346 provides some insight into the purpose and how the 3rd

Legacy Procedure was born while developing the structure of our first General

Service Conference. Perhaps someone knows who "suggested" this solution and can

shed some more light on how they came to this brilliant solution to what could

have been a divisive problem.



"Bill wanted the delegates to be truly representative of their areas, but he

also wanted to avoid the, "hotly contested close election, which nearly always

left behind a large and discontented minority." The problem of how the delegates

were to be elected was a perplexing one. The solution suggested was to provide

for the submission of written ballots, and to require that any single candidate

receive a two-thirds majority of the vote for election. In the event that there

were several strong contenders and no single one received a two-thirds majority,

the names of the front-runners could be placed in a hat and the winner chosen by

lot."



RW



erstwhile_erratic_aa <aa101@bellsouth.net> wrote:

In a similiar request to the 4th step origins I asked. What about the

3rd legacy voting procedure. It is unique to AA but the recent voting

at the Vatican seems very similiar. Any ideas where Bill got this

format for voting?



Tom Hoban

Marietta, GA.

















---------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.





__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2385 ny-aa@att.net
Re: Origins of 4th step column format Origins of 4th step column format 5/8/2005 10:51:00 PM


History Lovers may have a hard time finding "I Was a Pagan"

from 1934 that Mitch mentioned in their library or book store.

This may solve that problem.



http://www.stepstudy.org/downloads/pagan.pdf



Fortunately, one AA group has made the complete text available

on the internet. I think somebody else had this in his collection

but that site was taken down. Anyhow, this works. Thanks.



------ Original message --------

From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

Also reference V. Kitchen's "I Was A Pagan" where the OG Game of Truth was laid

out in columns with similar subject content. When you see this format it is

extremely similar to the columns in the BB



--------------------------------

MODERATOR: The reference here I believe is to page 49 of "I Was a Pagan":



IN MY OLD LIFE



[1] I MOST LIKED:

Myself.

Liquor, tobacco and almost every other stimulant, narcotic and form of

self-indulgence.

Anything which gave me pleasure, possessions power, position and applause, or

pumped up my self esteem.

To be left largely to myself

My wife—because of the comforting and complimentary way she treated me.



[2] I HATED MOST:

Poverty (for myself).

Prohibition.

Work.

People who disapproved or tried to interfere with me

Any betrayal of my inner thoughts or emotions.



IN MY NEW LIFE



[3] I MOST LIKE:

God.

Time alone with God. The fellowship of the living Jesus Christ.

The stimulation of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God’s guidance

Communion with others who are trying to lead the same kind of Christ-centered

life and the witnessing to all of what

Christ has come to mean to me

My wife—because of the things God now enables us to do for each other



[4] I HATE MOST:

Sin.

Self, because “I” is the middle letter of SIN.

Sins that separate me from God.

Sins that separate me from people.

Anything that falls short of God’s plan for me.


0 -1 0 0
2386 Rickydotcom
Re: Re: List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism 5/4/2005 11:44:00 PM


[DeafAA@aol.com wrote: Hello: I am wondering if they do still have VHS or DVD

for "Sarah T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic"? I can't find where I can order

it.]



Try these two links:



http://www.5minutesonline.com/1D/SARAH.htm



http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/search-handle-form/103-2404522-4258239



If the 2nd link doesn't wotk, go to Amazon.com and search under the "z Shops"

tab.



Best wishes,

Rick B.

aka Rickydotcom

Hagerstown, Maryland



-----------------------

From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com> Thu May 5, 2005

I found two VHS and one DVD of this movie for sale on ebay this morning.

<http://ebay.com>



Dick Spaedt


0 -1 0 0
2387 Buck
Re: List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism 5/6/2005 8:34:00 AM


AA History Lovers,

You may want to consider "Under the Volcano" with Albert Finney for this list.


0 -1 0 0
2388 Carl P.
Psychiatric Help ? Psychiatric Help ? 5/8/2005 9:52:00 PM


Please could somebody tell me, if, at the time the Big Book was being

written did Bill W have anybody in the psychiatric field helping with

the composing of the Big Book.


0 -1 0 0
2389 Dean @ e-AA
Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 5/10/2005 5:18:00 PM


The first mention of a thirteenth step may have been in the April 1947

Grapevine article by Bill W. entitled "Clubs in AA": "... we might think we

couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them as central AA

institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery program. ..."



In the August 1953 issue, in "Of Mountains and Molehills," there's a

different use of the term: "These select AA speakers speak in platitudes and

generalities, never bothering to go much into detail. They speak 'sweet

music' in a serious vein, never seeming to remember our Thirteenth Step of,

'Not taking yourself too darn seriously, and not forgetting your sense of

humor.'"



The first appearance in the Grapevine of the term using the meaning we

attach today seems to be in the title of a letter --"Thirteenth Step?" -- in

the September 1974 issue.



When I got to AA, the oldtimers around here (Monterey, California) had a

still different twist on it: They said that originally the thirteenth step

was meant to protect, or warn, people who were already sober. The new folks

(men or women) were "nuts" (as I was insane when I got to AA), and entering

relationships with new folks was not a good thing for one's serenity.



-- Dean Collins


0 -1 0 0
2390 t
Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 5/10/2005 5:16:00 PM


I managed to pull a few quotes from old Grapevines where these phrases were

used.



------------------------------



Thirteenth stepping



Grapevine, August 1953

"OF MOUNTAINS AND MOLEHILLS"

These select AA speakers speak in platitudes and generalities, never bothering

to go much into detail. They speak "sweet music" in a serious vein, never

seeming to remember our Thirteenth Step of, "Not taking yourself too darn

seriously, and not forgetting your sense of humor."



Grapevine, September 1974

[letter] "'Thirteenth Step'?"

I've just come from one of my favorite AA meetings, and I have an old familiar

feeling- resentment! Two new gals (young and attractive) were there. Do you

know, I had a hard time trying to talk with them, because the men in the group

were surrounding them. I went through this same thing for a while, and believe

me, it doesn't help the new gal. I don't hate men. In fact, I think they're

great! But may I please ask the men in the program to just give us AA gals a

chance to help the new, attractive women who come to AA for help? When I was

new, I thought the gals were wonderful, but some of the men really seemed

godlike to me. The hero worship bit just might cause some serious problems,

especially if either the new gal or the AA man or both are married. The spouses

are usually pretty mixed up, sometimes fed up, and pretty well sick of it all.

They just can't and won't take too well to any more complications. They don't

need any more problems.



March 1984

"Looking for Love"

That was the beginning. I went to AA. But it was not a cure! When I was three

months sober, I was two months pregnant - a direct result of

thirteenth-stepping. I didn't have alcohol in me now, but I was still looking

for love in the wrong way. By the grace of God, I didn't have to live with that

mistake, but I didn't learn from it,

either.





Grapevine, June 1985

"The Good Old Times"

"Together, Victor and the lady known as Lil started out to write the 'thirteenth

step,' long before the first twelve were ever thought of. What is more, they say

it began in Dr. Bob's office on his examination table while he was at the City

Club engaged in his sacrosanct Monday-night bridge game.



Grapevine, July 1988

"My Sponsor is Getting Better"

Another time, while the group was having coffee after a meeting, Mardie started

talking about the thirteenth step. She didn't say anything directly to me, but I

knew she meant it for me. "When these people try to fall in love and get sober

at the same time, there's bound to be problems. I've seen it happen time after

time." I gritted my teeth, thinking, "Now, she's judging me and I haven't even

done anything yet. Easy for her to say since she's married."



--------------------------------------------



90 Meetings in 90 Days



Grapevine, July 1953

"Ninety Days Will Do It"

[focus is on staying sober in the program for 90 days - doesn't necessarily

mention 90 meetings in that time]





Grapevine, May 1971

[letter] "A plea for an open door"

A lot of my help when I first came to AA was given by members with ten, fifteen,

or twenty years' sobriety. They said, "One day at a time, little gal. Take it

easy. Ninety meetings in ninety days. Keep it simple." Last but not least: "Call

us before you take that first drug or drink." They saved my life.





December 1973

"One-to-One"

Then came my fifteenth anniversary and dozens of cards from old friends and new.

Before the meeting, the chairman called a girl to the front of the room to

receive her ninety-day pin. She said a few words, grateful for being there,

three months out of the jungle of active alcoholism. I recalled how difficult

that first ninety days of sobriety had been for me, and how happy I had been

that I didn't have to drink! ...





April 1975

"Three Times I've Come Here"

My faith is strong, but not enough. Just as my first six-month pink cloud when

coming into AA was unearned - except by not drinking-so, too, my new faith is

unearned, a gift. I talk a good program. Act little. For three months, I cut my

wrists at meetings, beat my breast about not being active. Put up warning

flares. Donald is going to get active! - when his ninety days are up. But I sit

on my nether parts, do nothing. What kind of convert is this? Whining sublimely

about faith and hope, he works not, neither does he reap. A fellow full of

strong words, glibly sincere, bloated with gratitude. A statue to Bill W.!





Grapevine, June 1978

"The Fast Learner"

After this meeting, a few people came over to me with advice such as "Take the

cotton out of your ears and keep it in your mouth for a total of ninety days"

(which I immediately recognized as "Shut up, dummy, and listen"). Others told me

to keep on talking at the meetings, because only by opening up could I be

helped. Confusion!Which group should I please, and which should I offend?





Grapevine, February 1979

"The Day of the First Meeting"

Tonight, our group had the pleasure of presenting a ninety-day card, and the

recipient came forward to accept it from me, the secretary. I saw a very

attractive lady who had lost twenty pounds in ninety days, had a new, stylish

hairdo, and was perfectly radiant. I choked up a bit as I handed the card to a

lady who, ninety days ago on a cold winter morning, had bowed her head and said,

"I'm an alcoholic and I need help."





Grapevine, October 1980

"Who's Responsible?"

For the next ninety days or so, Eddie was always there to take me to a meeting.

I was scared, shaking, sometimes angry; but it didn't bother him. I learned a

lesson from him that I used for many years: No matter how sick or shaky a man

may be, take him to a meeting.





Grapevine, December 1981

"They Were Really Listening"

During the discussion period, I got to know them as individuals. There was a

well-dressed, well-spoken older man, who had graduated from the Bowery; a truck

driver who'd just made his first ninety days; a nurse; a television reporter

who'd just gotten fired; a dese-dem-and dose guy who'd gone a few too many ...





Grapevine, May 1989

"The Bingo Card of Life"

Ninety meetings in ninety days is helpful advice for someone entering the

program of recovery. We may not be drinking but inside we are falling apart. We

are dry but we are still alcoholic, still sick. Acceptance and recovery both

take time. For most of us, it took many years of practice to get here. Often we

expect miracles overnight, but recovery is a gradual, day-by-day process.





Grapevine, September 1990

"To the Old-Timers of Tomorrow"

At that time we didn't have any place to meet except restaurants, hotel lobbies,

and my home. We had only the Big Book and each other to attain and maintain our

sobriety. We never heard of ninety meetings in ninety days. That would have been

impossible because there was only one meeting a week in a hundred mile area.





Grapevine, November 1991

"Conscious Contact"

When I first joined AA I was an atheist and unable to pray. After attending

ninety meetings in ninety days, I knelt by my bed one morning and in tearful

frustration pounded with my fists and cried, "If you are up there, if there is a

God, help me!" In the days to follow I tried to meditate and pray but I really

didn't know how. Like many newcomers, the idea of meditation or prayer seemed

too esoteric for me, something only priests or pastors could do. Gradually I was

able to learn, through reading, and through much practice, to "let go and let

God." But it took some doing!





Grapevine, May 1994

"It Works if You Work It"

I am not an old-timer. My sobriety is new and very precious to me. I have almost

finished ninety meetings in ninety days. The first few days I dreaded going to

the meetings. I put them on the level of an exercise class. You hate to go, but

you go because you like the results.





Grapevine, January 1996

"Getting Stupid"

So AA's message has become watered down. For example, nowhere in our literature

does it say anything about ninety meetings in ninety days, or that we have to

learn to love ourselves. That's a detox message. Our literature, our message,

talks about recovering one day at a time and getting out of selfcenteredness in

order to recover. Nonalcoholics in AA is AA's fault because AA doesn't do its

job in detoxes or in the courts to explain what we are.





Grapevine, August 1996

"Starting Over with Step One"

I left the third treatment center with a strong willingness to do whatever AA

members told me to do. I went to ninety meetings in ninety days, I got a

sponsor, I worked the Twelve Steps to the best of my ability at the time. I

talked to God every morning and asked him to help me stay sober, and every night

I thanked him for keeping me sober. Then I chaired meetings and got involved in

Twelfth Step work. I was attending three meetings a week and finding happiness

in sobriety.





Grapevine, February 1997

"Relocating Recovery"

By the time we reached ninety meetings in ninety days, I was in the psych ward

at a prominent local rehab hospital. My system had gone into overload with the

huge guilt trip of a totally negative inventory. But I was physically sober. My

body was reeling and staggering from removing chemicals to which it was long

accustomed.


0 -1 0 0
2391 dinobb_dinobb
First 100 members First 100 members 5/9/2005 7:39:00 AM


Of the stories at the back of the original manuscript I counted -- please

correct me -- 29 stories. From what I gather 17 died drunk. The ones that stand

out are Bill R., Hank P., Ernie G. I know about stories in the pioneering

section -- Marty M. discontinued sobriety, etc.



Any facts concerning this stuff is greatly appreciated. I heard

Clancy I. of Venice CA make the assertion that many of the original

memebers died drunk.


0 -1 0 0
2392 Tom Hickcox
I Was a Pagan I Was a Pagan 5/10/2005 5:04:00 PM


There are three listings for "I Was a Pagan" on eBay right now.



Items #6959438444, #6959720807, and #6960098301



There are also thirteen listed on Abe Books priced from $95 up.



Tommy in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
2393 Tom Hickcox
Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 5/10/2005 6:21:00 PM


The Mardie mentioned in "My Sponsor Got Better" is Mardi V. right here in Red

Stick.



I don't know if this link will work but it's for the story

<http://tinyurl.com/bt3tx>



Tommy

=================



Thirteenth stepping



Grapevine, July 1988

"My Sponsor is Getting Better"

Another time, while the group was having coffee after a meeting, Mardie started

talking about the thirteenth step. She didn't say anything directly to me, but I

knew she meant it for me. "When these people try to fall in love and get sober

at the same time, there's bound to be problems. I've seen it happen time after

time." I gritted my teeth, thinking, "Now, she's judging me and I haven't even

done anything yet. Easy for her to say since she's married."


0 -1 0 0
2394 Tom Hickcox
Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 5/10/2005 6:21:00 PM


The first mention of a thirteenth step may have been in the April 1947

Grapevine article by Bill W. entitled "Clubs in AA": "... we might think we

couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them as central AA

institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery program. ..."



In the August 1953 issue, in "Of Mountains and Molehills," there's a

different use of the term: "These select AA speakers speak in platitudes and

generalities, never bothering to go much into detail. They speak 'sweet

music' in a serious vein, never seeming to remember our Thirteenth Step of,

'Not taking yourself too darn seriously, and not forgetting your sense of

humor.'"



The first appearance in the Grapevine of the term using the meaning we

attach today seems to be in the title of a letter --"Thirteenth Step?" -- in

the September 1974 issue.



When I got to AA, the oldtimers around here (Monterey, California) had a

still different twist on it: They said that originally the thirteenth step

was meant to protect, or warn, people who were already sober. The new folks

(men or women) were "nuts" (as I was insane when I got to AA), and entering

relationships with new folks was not a good thing for one's serenity.



-- Dean Collins















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2395 Gilbert Gamboa
Re: 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 13th stepping and "90-in-90" 5/10/2005 6:49:00 PM


Wow Thats not what i said,I said we must not pre-occupy with such Trash as- "13

stepping, and 90 meetings and 90 days"..

in Fact the God Bless her soul Nancy O,told me personally that she first started

hearing this in N.Y. AA around the early 70`s,a phrase she stated probally came

from The "treatment Centers" as these were rules to follow after being released

from treatment,again making it clear that in no way is it related to

AA...........unless you want to get really technical a Model airplane a child

plays with is just like a B-52 bomber,only great differences are there..

Trust God ,Clean house and Help Others

Gilbert Gamboa


0 -1 0 0
2396 Art Sheehan
RE: Psychiatric Help ? Psychiatric Help ? 5/10/2005 7:12:00 PM


Hi Carl



During Feb/Mar 1939, multilith copies of the Big Book manuscript, distributed

for review, were returned. Reader’s comments produced few alterations in the

final text. A major change did occur at the suggestion of a “Dr Howard, a

well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, NJ” who recommended toning down the use of

“musts” and changing them to “we ought” or “we should.” Dr Silkworth (a

neurologist) and Dr Tiebout (a psychiatrist) offered similar advice. (re AA

Comes of Age [AACOA] pgs 167-168).



The only physician credited with contributing to the Big Book is Dr. Silkworth.

He is also viewed by Bill W as a major contributor to the Steps (Language of the

Heart pg 196). Reputedly one camp of NY members wanted the Steps to be more

“psychological” than “theological proposition” (re Not God pg 71). Another major

influence on the Steps was William James (The Varieties of Religious Experience)

who is often called the founding father of American psychology.



Dr Harry Tiebout is credited with being AA’s “first friend of psychiatry” (re

AACOA pg 2). He did not become aware of AA until he received a multilith copy of

the manuscript for review (re AACOA pg 310). He gave the copy to Marty Mann.



Although not mentioned as an influence, perhaps the grand daddy of them all was

Dr Benjamin Rush (1746-1813) of Philadelphia, PA. He was a member of the

Continental Congress, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and Surgeon

General of the Continental Army during the Revolution. He is often called both

the father of American psychiatry and the father of the American temperance

movement. In 1784 Rush wrote a 36-page paper titled An Enquiry into the Effects

of Ardent Spirits on the Human Body and Mind. It described habitual drunkenness

as a “progressive and odious disease” and asserted that total abstinence

“suddenly and entirely” was the only effective treatment.

In 1810 Rush called for the creation of “Sober houses” where alcoholics could be

confined and rehabilitated. It is a bit of irony that Dr Bob graduated from Rush

University Medical School when he was doing some of the worst of his drinking.



With a little allowance for rule #62, it seems confident there were far more AA

members who were psychotic, rather than psychiatrists, involved in putting the

Big Book together. They didn’t do too bad at all either.



Cheers

Arthur





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2397 Glenn Chesnut
The Six Steps in Bill W''s handwriting The Six Steps in Bill W''s handwriting 5/14/2005 11:39:00 PM


From: bikergaryg@aol.com Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:21pm



Folks



I bought a copy of this on e-bay and I wanted to share this with my friends.



It is summary of the early six-step version of the steps used in AA before the

publication of the Big Book. It is written in Bill Wilson's handwriting and

signed by him. It is dated April 1953, three months before the July 1953

Grapevine article titled "A Fragment of History: Origin of the Twelve Steps"

(reproduced in The Language of the Heart, page 200), and uses very similar

though not identical wording.



There is a photo of my copy on the internet at http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html

"Early Six-step Versions of the Steps."



Hope all is well.



Semper Gratus, Gary















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2398 Jim K.
International Convention Internet Group International Convention Internet Group 5/12/2005 9:32:00 AM


There is a Yahoo! Group that is set up for members of the internet community to

meet each other at the International Convention in Toronto. It is located at:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AA_International_Convention



A coffee hour is being set up, tee shirts being printed - a nice way to meet

some of the people whose emails/posts you have been reading.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
2399 J. Carey Thomas
90 in 90 90 in 90 5/12/2005 9:55:00 AM


I have heard from several sources that the Salvation Army took on

"drunks" for a ninety-day commitment to their program of work, daily

meetings and "salvation." So far the sources cited in this forum

have been "treatment centers" which typically milk clients for thirty

(28) days, as that is the usual insurance coverage. Where did

"Ninety Days" come from?

_\|/_

(o o)

-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

Archivist - Area 15



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2400 ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>
Sotheby''s manuscript Sotheby''s manuscript 5/12/2005 1:58:00 PM


Hi group,

Many of us recall the $1.56 milion paid last June for the final Feb. 1939

working draft of the Big Book, with its accepted bid telephoned in to Sotheby's

from California.

What's become of the archival item and its buyer?

Rick T. Illinois


0 -1 0 0
2401 Wendi Turner
Did Lois drive the motorcycle? Did Lois drive the motorcycle? 5/13/2005 12:33:00 PM


"We gave up our positions and off we roared on a motorcycle, the sidecar stuffed

with tent, blankets, a change of clothes, and three huge volumes of a financial

reference service. Our friends thought a lunacy commission should be appointed.

"

-- Alcoholics Anonymous P. 2-3



I've heard the Lois actually did much of the driving of the motorcycle during

their adventures across the east coast, is this documented anywhere, does anyone

know???


0 -1 0 0
2402 Bill Lash
RE: First 100 members First 100 members 5/13/2005 5:51:00 AM


From: dinobb_dinobb

<<I heard Clancy I. of Venice CA make the assertion that many of the original

memebers died drunk.>>



From: "Gallery" <gallery5@mindspring.com> Date: Thu May 12, 2005

<<I just listened to Clancy today: a tape called "Our Primary Purpose." Don't

know the date or place but I would guess it to be from the late 80's or early

90's and he said that "many of the original members died drunk." I was going to

post that same question myself. I know the statistics in the Foreward don't

match with that (50%, then 25% come back - thus 75%).>>

Rotax Steve, Nangi namaj perez



From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> Date: Fri May 13, 2005

This is true, many of the 1st Edition Big Book story authors did not stay sober.

The earliest members learned a harsh lesson about recovery from alcoholism that

is a lesson to us all - it's an Oxford Group term called "Continuance" (the last

of the five C's). What they learned from their own experience was that they

don't just do the practical program of recovery once & then rest on their

laurels (past achievements). We don't awaken spiritually & then this initial

awakening carries us for the rest of our lives. They learned this was not

enough. We need to awaken spiritually & then continue to deepen & broaden our

spiritual life through work & self-sacrifice for others. The spiritual

experience of a year ago will not keep us sober today, just as the drink we had

last week will not keep us drunk today. We need to grow in spiritual

understanding & effectiveness by staying involved in all three parts of AA

solution throughout our lives - Recovery (which is the working & re-working of

all 12 Steps), Unity (AA meetings & interacting with other AAs), & Service (this

includes inside our fellowship as well as outside our

fellowship, expecting nothing in return). This 3-part solution is found in our

Circle & Triangle. This is a way of life, a design for living that works in

rough going. I have NEVER known ANYONE who was CURRENTLY involved in ALL three

parts of AAs solution on an ongoing basis who EVER went back to drinking.

Thanks for your important question. Take it easy & God bless!

Just

Love,

Barefoot

Bill


0 -1 0 0
2403 Art B
Did Lois drive the motorcycle? Did Lois drive the motorcycle? 5/15/2005 11:31:00 PM


THE QUESTION WAS:



I've heard that Lois actually did much of the driving of the motorcycle during

their adventures across the east coast. Is this documented anywhere, does anyone

know???



---------------------------------



"Art B" <artb@netwiz.net>



Dear Lovers,



I love the comments about AA, and want to help on the Al-Anon family side. On

page 39 of "Lois Remembers," Chapter 4, entitled "Two motorcycle hoboes." " As I

sat in the driver's seat and turned on the gas, the sense of power - somehow

mine, not the machine's - was tremendous."



Lois wrote her memoir after Bill's death. He didn't edit what she wrote (:>))

and it was printed in 1979. Copies are still available at Al-Anon meetings and

the Al-Anon world service office.



Sincerely, Art B., California



(Same reference also from "Meggie" <meggie1270@wideopenwest.com>)



---------------------------------



khemex@comcast.net



The book, "Diary of two motorcycle Hobo's" Written by Bill and Lois Wilson

1925-27 during their two year trip has numerous references to the fact that Lois

in fact did much of the driving, reason given that Bill would br reading

reference material while researching their next company to investigate. That

little book is just a wealth of historical background into Bill and Lois's lives

before recovery entered their family. I believe this book is still in print and

readily available. I hope this helps.

Gerry W.



(Same reference also from Greg Merkel <gregandkathy2@usfamily.net>)



---------------------------------



FROM "VERLIN:)"

See the photograph of Bill and Lois on the motorcycle at

http://www.aabbsg.de/aahistoryphotos/page06.html and also the text underneath:



"Bill and Lois went scouting investments during the mid-1920's on their Harley

Davidson. Lois often remarked that Bill usually let Lois drive while he sat in

the side car. She said Bill preferred her doing the driving. Lois was really the

Harley rider but Bill showed off here."



---------------------------------



"Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>



Lois told me that Bill preferred riding in the sidecar and she did most of the

driving.



---------------------------------



FROM ARTHUR SHEERIN:



YES. In Lois’ diary during the motorcycle trips (which she published) she says

for example:



PART I

New Poughkeepsie, N.Y.

Thurs., April 16, 1925

"It is cold in April riding a motorcycle without a windshield, but breathing in

the ozone as we whiz along is most invigorating! When sitting on the driver's

seat and turning on the gas I feel as if the whole world were mine. The sense of

power, somehow not the machine's but mine, is tremendous."



---------------------------------


0 -1 0 0
2404 Fiona Dodd
Marty Mann, "Counselling the Alcoholic" Marty Mann, "Counselling the Alcoholic" 5/15/2005 1:34:00 AM


Counselling the Alcoholic

Mrs. Marty Mann

Executive Director

National Council on Alcoholism, New York



The Blue Book, Vol. XVIII, 1966

Hollywood-by-the-Sea, Florida







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like the title of the talk assigned me, viz., "Counselling the Alcoholic."

I am not a counsellor. My experience in working directly with alcoholics

came through membership in AA. I have the honor of being the first woman who

made it in AA, and as that was 27 years ago this month, I have been around a

long time. I have done a great deal of 12th step work. In that sense it

could be said that I have counselled alcoholics. I think that is what one

does in 12th step work. And I think that is where one learns the two most

vital points in reaching and helping the alcoholic. These are what I want to

talk to you about.

I ought perhaps to address my remarks primarily to those who have not had

the indoctrination, the induction, into the field of counselling the

alcoholic that AA members automatically get.



Therefore, the first point I want to make is that, in my opinion, the first

requirement for successful counselling of the alcoholic is the correct

attitude of the person doing the counselling toward the alcoholic. There are

many highly qualified people in the field of counselling with all kinds of

degrees and many years of experience, but they can't work with alcoholics. I

think that very often they are unaware of the reason why they can't work

with alcoholics. As far as they know consciously they are sympathetic. They

recognize that these people are ill; in fact, they repeat happily the basic

statement of NCA that alcoholism is a disease. But actually they have given

only lip service to that concept. Intellectually they have accepted it —

intellectually only — and I would remind you as priests — you know this

better than I — that human beings do not act on their intellectual beliefs.

They act on their feelings; they act on the beliefs that are in their hearts

rather than in their heads. And if they do not deeply believe that

alcoholism is an illness, that these are sick people, in their hearts, then

they are ineffective in dealing with alcoholics.



The sad part about this is that far too many people do not recognize this

division within themselves. They are unaware that their disbelief runs deep,

sometimes so deep that they can't put their finger on it. It is a

conditioning that they probably received before they were six years old (and

the psychiatrists tell us that is crucial) that they imbibed almost with

their mother's milk, and at their mother's knee, and by osmosis, because of

the society in which we all grew up, acquired the old attitudes that

alcoholism is purely a sin, that this is a moral question, wholly and

completely. You see, nobody in the field of alcoholism denies that there are

tremendous moral implications in alcoholism, because of the behavior that it

induces and also because of the thinking that develops from continued

ingestion of alcohol. In AA we call it stinkin' thinkin'. It can be very far

from any of our ideals about morals and virtues and faith. All of these

things are true. But this is not what I am talking about.



I am talking about all the old-fashioned concepts with which all of us who

are adults grew up, whether we remember them or not: that alcoholics were

primarily some kind of moral delinquent, moral leper (excepting that they

are trying to get that "leper" out of our thinking, too, and call it by its

proper name); that these were people who, if they chose, could be different;

that they were deliberately this way, that they had no regard for anyone but

themselves. In fact, I have heard wives of alcoholics who said, "Oh, yes, I

know he is sick and all that, but why does he do this to me? Why does he

behave this way? Doesn't he love me? Doesn't he care about his family?"



Well, of course he does. He is in the grip of something that goes beyond his

power to control. He has lost control over drinking, and because of this, he

has lost control over his behavior.



Actually, non-alcoholics, if they get drunk, lose control over their

behavior. They can behave just as badly as the alcoholic. The main

difference is that they don't do it consistently over and over again with

increasingly frequency over many years.





Who is an Alcoholic?



We have a definition at NCAA that we use, that we think is a pretty good

working definition, and it developed right out of the experiences of AA, as

to who is and who isn't an alcoholic.



We say the alcoholic is someone whose drinking causes a continuing problem

in any department of his or her life. The assumption is that the person who

drinks too much on occasions, if it develops into a problem, will not want

the problem and will, therefore, take action about it because of the

problem. They either cut down their drinking, or they will cut it out for a

while. The alcoholic would like to do the same thing, but the alcoholic is

totally unable; it is impossible for the alcoholic to cut down on his or her

drinking. This is the nature of alcoholism.



In fact, it is the nature of the test that also grew out of AA's

experiences, and which I incorporated in my book. I don't believe any true

alcoholic can pass this test: the limiting of drinks to not more than three

on any drinking occasion, even if it is daily, over a six-month period.

Every alcoholic would love to be able to do this. I have never heard of a

real alcoholic who could pass that test.



Actually, in my original Primer, I had three months, and there were a

handful who managed to pass it. They didn't say how awful it was, and how

uncomfortable it was. And in the book I point out that this should be a

comfortable process. It should be comfortable to limit your drinks. You may

not like it, you may be on many occasions with people who are drinking too

much, and you would like to go on, but if you are taking this test, if you

are attempting to find out whether you have alcoholism or not, you will be

more comfortable not drinking more than your three because you want to pass

the test.



In other words, it is a possible thing for a non-alcoholic to do. It is not

a possible thing for an alcoholic to do. That is why it is a continuing

problem that is caused by drinking.



We also make a point of that last half, "in any department of his or her

life." You know AA has had a phrase which has proven very useful in AA, but

has been widely misinterpreted outside of AA, and even within, by some

people — hitting bottom.



The general picture in the non-alcoholic world in which we live, of

alcoholics hitting bottom, is literally that they instantly conceive of

somebody who is in the gutter, who has lost everything, lost everything

materially, intellectually, morally, has just lost everything — this is

hitting bottom.



Well, actually in the very early days of AA, that was about right. Certainly

when I went in, and there were just a handful of us, nobody had a dime; we

had all lost everything materially. Nobody had much of anything else. A few

still had their wives, but most didn't. And only one had her husband, I

being that one. The second woman did not have a husband. The third one still

had her husband, and this was a miracle — we didn't believe it — because

while wives sometimes stick to the alcoholic, husbands rarely do.





Younger People in AA



I firmly believe that with the increasing education about alcoholism,

increasing understanding of it, increasing acceptance of it as the illness

it is, people are coming for help at earlier and earlier stages of their

problems. It is not unusual to go to an AA meeting, particularly in a big

city, and find everybody there looking to me like infants. Now, I recognize

that is partly because of my own increasing age, for people look younger

every year, I find. But it is true that there are a very large number of

people in AA, all across the country, who are in their 20's today. This was

not true in the beginning. And these people have hit a kind of bottom that

is certainly totally unlike this general picture.



I think we have to recognize this in counselling the alcoholic — that this

bottom is a purely personal thing. A person may hit bottom because of his

own thinking on the subject, because of what he has learned, because of the

fact he has recognized what is ahead of him. Just enough has happened to

make him see that the pattern fits, and he has read about it, or listened to

someone who knows telling him about it. He sees what lies ahead, and he

doesn't want to go that road. And nobody would, if he had a choice.



Today he has a choice. There are things he can do. There are places he can

go; there are people that he can talk to, and he need not yield to, he is

not bound hand and foot to the inevitable progress of alcoholism. He can

break the chains. He can become free. It is very satisfying to me, to

realize how many young people are preferring to be free once they learn what

these chains are like.



Now "bottom" may not have shown on the outside at all. He may not have lost

anything. He may never have lost a job. He may not have lost his family or

even had the threat of losing his family. He may be materially well off, but

inside, as he recognizes his condition, and what it means, and where it will

lead, he hits a kind of emotional bottom. He hits bottom where it counts, in

the feelings. Alcoholics aren't any different from anybody else.



I like to tell my fellow alcoholics, remind them, we are people just like

anyone else. We have the same equipment that other people have. We have a

mind, we have an intellect, we have feelings — sometimes I think that is the

one area where we may be a little different — perhaps our feelings are more

acute, but I am not certain whether that antedated the ingestion of alcohol

or whether alcohol watered those feelings, like watering a garden. And they

became more acute and bigger and more visible than other people's.



We have a soul. I firmly believe every human being does, no matter what his

actions are, or what terrible things he may have done. We have all the

equipment of everybody else. We are people and, therefore, we share a lot of

the failings of the human race. I don't think alcoholics are unusually blind

to alcoholism. Everybody is blind to alcoholism. They are sharing what

everybody else has.



Remember, they were brought up the same way; they were also brought up under

the myths and misconceptions and misapprehensions that we all had about

alcoholism a quarter of a century ago. This is perhaps one reason why it is

becoming easier to reach young people. They didn't grow up in that same

atmosphere. Things had already begun to change somewhat.





The Skid Row Derelict



For instance, the stereotyped picture of the alcoholic that we who are

adults, middle aged if you like, grew up with was that of the skid row bum.



Now, the National Council on Alcoholism is very much interested in the skid

row derelict, but we have deliberately stayed away from getting too deeply

involved in this area of alcoholism because we were so determined to break

this stereotyped picture that this was the alcoholic, that there wasn't

anything else. You see, it is easy for people to accept this, because if

that is the alcoholic, it can't be me, or my wife, or my children, or my

family, or my friends, because we are not skid row bums.



It lets people off. It is a lovely way to get involved and yet to exclude

being involved in those who are close to you, in your own parishes if you

are a pastor, in your own colleges, in your own group of friends.



Actually the skid row problem is a severe one in this country, and yet it

represents only a tiny percentage of our total alcoholic population.



Over the last several years many of us have sat down together and worried

about the matter of statistics for the field of alcoholism. And let's be

honest, we don't have any. We just don't have any statistics that are really

valid. We only have estimates, but all of us felt that it could not be the

same number as had been arrived at for the year 1956. And that figure of 5

million was based on 1956 statistics, using the Jellinek formula to arrive

at an estimate of the number of alcoholics.



We all recognized that 10 years later, for one thing, the population had

increased enormously. This meant that the number of drinkers had increased,

because the proportion of Americans who drink has been going up. Since 1956

it has risen perceptibly, and this meant that since there were more

drinkers, there were undoubtedly more people with alcoholism. And so we

worked out a formula and we arrived at a figure for 1965 of 6½ million

alcoholics. And I may say, that it is possible to arrive at that figure for

1965 in quite a large variety of ways. We tried a good many of them, and

always came out with roughly the same answer. And so, it was decided that

the National Council and its affiliates would adopt that figure. We also

circulated the statement to all of the state programs on alcoholism. And

they were delighted to have it, because they had been feeling just as

uncomfortable as we had about using the same figure for ten years in the

face of what everyone knew to be a difference in the number of people, and

the number of drinkers, and, therefore, the number of alcoholics.



To return to this attitude business, I think it is crucial, if you are going

to reach the alcoholic. I have often said that alcoholics are like children

and dogs. They feel what you feel. They don't hear what you say. You can

approach an alcoholic with an absolutely correct textbook speech. Everything

you say will be exactly right, right down the line, but what the alcoholic

is listening for is how you feel toward him. Is there a hint of hostility, a

hint of contempt? Remember, most alcoholics have had considerable rejection

in their lives, considerable misunderstanding around them. They feel

rejected. Usually by the time they get to you who are counselling them, they

feel rejected indeed. They are looking for more rejection in you, and you

can't conceal it if it is there somewhere. You may not know it yourself, but

the alcoholics will know it. They will pick it up every time, and they just

won't be back. You will have lost them. This may set them back years,

because if they have arrived at the point of going to see anyone,

particularly their pastor, this is a big step forward. It can be a

tremendously important thing that they should make such an effort, that they

should make such a contact, that they should go to somebody, even though

they may be bringing you a lot of lies.





The Alcoholic and Sanity



Here again I think we need a little correction of some of our thinking on

this. In the first place, I don't think the alcoholic tells lies for anybody

else. I think the alcoholic tells lies for his own sake. I think that deep

in the heart of the person who has lost control over drinking, however early

it is, there is a real terror that he has lost his mind, that he is truly

insane. And I don't mean in the temporary sense that occurs with deep

intoxication, which all of us who are alcoholics know all too well. No, I

think here they are so terrified that they have really lost their minds that

they try to explain to themselves why this keeps happening. They will go to

incredible lengths to make an explanation.



I think that the lies are more of an explanation. I don't like the word

"rationalization" because that implies a willful and deliberate thing, and I

don't really believe that it is often that. It is a frantic effort to

reassure themselves.



Obviously if they can get other people to believe it, this bolsters their

own belief that they are all right, that this terrible thing is not

happening to them, that it isn't that bad.



I also think that on certain occasions they tell lies because other people

expect them to, and I believe most people do expect this.



We had our annual meeting in New York last week, and a research project was

reported on. It was a follow-up study of alcoholics from the State Hospital

in Maryland. They wanted to know, among other things, whether the histories

the alcoholics gave of themselves when they came in — they weren't all

voluntary; some were committed — bore any relation to the truth. And they

found to their amazement that the alcoholics were highly reliable, that in

most cases what they told about themselves and their past and what had

happened to them, was right; they had told the truth.



I think we can get hung up on this lying bit, and I think, furthermore, that

it affects the attitude of the person who is trying to help. And if it

affects the attitude of the person who is trying to help, it affects the

attitude of the person who is to be helped. This is another thing that we

are apt to forget, and that I think is crucial in counselling. You know that

most of us spend 90% of our time reacting to other people. Oh, we do a

certain amount of initiation, a certain amount of acting which is entirely

our own and bears no relation to other people, but a great deal of our time

we are reacting to other people. Stop and think about it, and you will see

what I mean. This is also true of the alcoholic, who after all is a human,

remember. He is a member of the human race, even if he doesn't think he is,

and even if some people in the human race don't think that he is or don't

think he ought to be anyway. And he will react to everything that you say

and do.



Your job, when you are counselling, is to see that his reactions are

positive and constructive, that you do not frighten him to death, that you

do not talk down to him from the mountain top. And I think it is

particularly hard for the clergyman. Remember that in everybody's mind, and

certainly in our country, which is supposed to be a Godly country (we do

have "In God we Trust" on all our coins, you know; it is a motto of these

United States), the clergyman is somebody up there. The clergyman is the man

of God; the clergyman is special; the clergyman is holy; the clergyman is

good. And here is this individual who usually feels less than the dirt

beneath anybody's feet. Filled with self-misgiving, self-hate, self-fear, he

is going to the symbol of good and God. He expects to be talked down to from

the mountain top. He expects this person really to feel too good to want him

around and, all too often, that is just what the clergyman feels.





Understanding is Important



Now the alcoholic is waiting for this; so even the tiniest tinge of

preaching down from a mountain top to this poor little man down in the abyss

is magnified in that individual's reactions into a real barrier that he can

not overcome. He can't give, he can't talk, he can't feel free, he can't let

himself be helped.



I am not saying, although I do think this plays a part, that it is necessary

to be an alcoholic to have the right attitude towards another alcoholic, but

it sure helps. The person who has been through it knows perfectly well he is

not up on a mountain top, and can reassure the alcoholic pretty quickly that

he was right down in that abyss too. And he knows just what it feels like,

and he got just as dirty, and he can do it in a way that is believed,

believed here in the heart, not just up here in the head.



I do not believe that only alcoholics can do this, because I have known

professional people who could do it equally well. I myself am the product of

one. I don't know whether this Conference ever heard Dr. Harry Tiebout

speak. If you didn't, I am sorry, because he died two weeks ago, and I think

he is one of the greatest losses to this field since Dr. E.M. Jellinek left

us.



Dr. Tiebout happened to be my psychiatrist. He is the man who forced me into

AA. He is the man who understood AA before I did, and brought me to a

recognition and an understanding and an acceptance of it. And here was a man

whom I had been looking down my nose at for a good year while I was under

treatment, because he didn't like to drink. I didn't see how he could expect

to talk to me.



In fact, I told him once that I just thought he was an old spoil sport. He

didn't like it, so he didn't want anybody else to enjoy it. This man had a

real understanding of the alcoholic. He could talk to the alcoholic in terms

the alcoholic could hear and could accept. And he was not alone. There are

many people across the country, and many of them are the clergy of many

denominations.



Although I must say in my travels, which are extensive, and my knowledge of

what is going on in many communities around the country, it is frequently a

Catholic priest who is the one who is the warm wise counsellor for many

alcoholics in that area, and not necessarily, by any means, an alcoholic

priest.



So, I do believe that this attitude is possible. And I personally think it

should be possible for a Christian, for a man of God, who should have

learned something about humility, about caring for others, his flock, and

all mankind in his flock. So I feel very strongly that the clergy are a

tremendously important group in dealing with alcoholism, because I think,

very often, the family will go first to their pastor when there is trouble

at home. It may not be the alcoholic himself or herself who goes first, but

if the situation is handled right, and if the family can learn a little

about what alcoholism is, and about this business of the alcoholic reacting

to behavior, the thinking and words of others, then the situation can be

changed to the point where the alcoholic himself or herself will go.



And this is when it becomes crucial how the counsellor, be he

clergyman or not, handles the situation. The matter of attitude is

absolutely basic. If you don't have this, then it doesn't matter how many

techniques you use, they aren't going to work. You have not been able to

establish contact; you have not been able to communicate; you have not been

able to establish rapport, and until those are established, it doesn't

matter what else you do.



Let me tell you one thing that I think was a great contribution. A good many

years ago at one of the refresher courses at Yale, I was spending a lot of

time with Father Ray Kennedy. He was also there at the refresher course, and

he was very much excited. "You know," he said, "I have discovered something

that I think may be my major contribution to the field of alcoholism. And I

want to tell you about it."



It seems that in Syracuse there was a very wealthy Catholic family where the

wife and mother was an alcoholic, a pretty bad one. There was plenty of

money there, and there was a great deal of recognition of the stigma,

because this was a socially prominent family. So she was constantly being

shipped away to high priced sanatariums, or high priced doctors somewhere

else; she would come back and be all right for a while, and then she would

go back to drinking.



She would never admit that drinking was her problem. She was always very

nervous, having a nervous breakdown, or something else. In other words, she

was doing this so-called lying that is so much talked about in alcoholics.

Eventually, the husband and father went to Father Kennedy and he said, "You

know, she has tremendous respect for you." He was a professor in LeMoyne

College there and a man of considerable stature. "Would you come and talk to

her."



So Father Kennedy went over to talk to this woman. And she launched into her

usual series of denials that she had a problem with drinking, saying that

that wasn't it, it was a lot of other things, and he got a little

exasperated since he was getting nowhere fast. Then he said, "Why do you

have so much difficulty in admitting that you have alcoholism?"



She said, "What did you say?"



He said, "Why do you have so much difficulty admitting that you have

alcoholism?"



"I have alcoholism?" she said. "Why didn't somebody tell me?"



Father Kennedy is a Jesuit, as you all know, and they are pretty astute in

the convolutions of the human mind, and he recognized something immediately.

If you say to somebody you are an alcoholic, you are pointing the finger of

blame, saying, "You did it." If you say to somebody, "You have alcoholism,"

this could have come up from behind and grabbed them when they weren't

looking. They didn't necessarily do it to themselves.



And he felt that where you could remove that kind of guilt, you open the

door to constructive help.



That is precisely what happened with this woman. She got well. She joined AA

and recovered. And he said, "I believe this may be my contribution. I would

like to suggest that the National Council, in speaking and writing, adopt

this way of talking. Instead of saying there are so many alcoholics, say

there are so many people with alcoholism, or so many Americans with

alcoholism. Instead of saying someone is becoming an alcoholic, say someone

is developing alcoholism. You say it is a disease, why don't you begin using

the same terminology you use about other diseases?"



You don't automatically say one is a cardiac. You say one has heart disease.

And this is true of all illnesses.



We have attempted to do this in the 10 years or so since Father Kennedy made

this suggestion, and I believe that it has had an impact. I believe that it

has enabled a lot of people to get to AA. As he said, "It lets them save

face in their own minds." And I know perfectly well that one of the barriers

to successful helping of the alcoholic is the load of guilt that the

alcoholic is carrying.



This is even truer with some groups than others. It has been my experience,

and I have talked with a lot of you, that the priest who develops alcoholism

has a bigger load of guilt than anyone else. And it often can be an

effective barrier against help.



I think that anything that we can do to lift the load of guilt, since it is

a barrier to recovery, we should do, and I think that much can be done in

the counselling session to lift it.





The Alcoholic Suffers



We don't have to say that everything you did while you were drunk is just

dandy. It wasn't. And the alcoholic knows that really better than anyone

else.



The alcoholic has suffered — and this is something that many people don't

realize — more intensely from remorse and shame than anybody on the outside

can ever imagine. We don't need to hammer them over the head with guilt.

They can create more than outsiders ever dreamed of. Their burden of guilt

is greater than any outsider will ever realize, and it is our job, if we are

counselling, if we are trying to help, to remove any possible barriers to

recovery.



The second thing that I want to talk about today is something that was

brought to my attention a good many years ago, when I had a young man

working for me whose name was Denis McGenty. I don't have to tell you he was

a Catholic. And he was quite a guy. He was a member of AA, and he was a real

artist with the words. He was a spellbinder. Denis was a sociologist. But

his drinking had interfered and he never got his Ph.D. And he began talking

about it, and thinking about it while he was working for me. One day he was

discussing various subjects that he might take for his doctoral

dissertation, and he said, "You know, I have got a wild idea that I would

really like to try. I think most alcoholics are saints manqué. They are

people who have all the qualities and qualifications for becoming saintly

and somehow it gets misdirected. And it is one reason that they get caught

in this toil, this vicious circle that they go around and around in. I

believe that most alcoholics of whatever denomination have been seeking God

in their own way through their drinking. In fact, though they have taken the

path that is leading them away from Him, that isn't what they had in mind."



And, indeed, it is sometimes true that an episode of drunkenness can be a

startling experience just like an experience with LSD, which can even

resemble a spiritual experience.



As a matter of fact, many years ago, and this was after Denis and I had been

discussing this idea, I read an issue of a magazine that a friend in

California sent to me called "Vedanta." In it was an article by Aldous

Huxley entitled "Transcending Down." He talked about mankind's efforts over

the thousands of years to find outside means for transcending, for achieving

a spiritual experience, for achieving a higher consciousness. We know of

many tribes in many parts of the world that use various drugs for this

purpose. And some have used alcohol for this purpose.



It is not impossible that the excessive use of alcohol has some kind of

relationship to this deep-seated search for God, for a feeling of God, not

just an intellectual acceptance of God.



Now I am saying this on purpose because I believe there is something true in

this, and I want you all to realize something that most of you probably

know. The alcoholic is frequently characterized as a dependent person, an

individual who must have something to lean on. You have heard reference made

to the glass crutch. That is one of the best descriptions of alcohol as

something to lean on, a glass crutch that can shatter, that has no real

strength, that is fragile. Alcoholics are using it as a crutch; they are

leaning on it. And very often when they go to someone for help, they become

extremely dependent on that individual for at least a period of time.



I heard a psychiatric social worker, who was a really good one and very

effective with alcoholics, describe it when somebody complained to her at a

professional meeting that she let her patients stay dependent too long. "We

certainly do. We take their hands when they come in. We hold their hands,

and when we let go, we let go finger by finger."





Give the Alcoholic Time



It takes time for the alcoholic to be independent again, to learn not to be

dependent on anything that comes his way on which he or she can lean.



Now this dependence, this leaning toward dependence, if you like, (and I am

not certain that it is confined to alcoholics, I think this is true perhaps

of mankind) can be used constructively. The goal of therapy in my opinion,

and it certainly is the goal in AA and it would be your goal as priests, is

to make these people that come to you God-dependent. When the alcholic comes

to AA, the God business, as you frequently hear it referred to in AA

meetings, is not crammed down his or her throat, at least not usually.

Sometimes it is and in some places it is not. But very often the resistance

is so great that it is again a hurdle to recovery which the alcoholic might

not be able to get over. So the newcomer is asked merely to keep an open

mind about spiritual matters, about God; to listen, to stay sober, to do

such things as he can within the AA program. And if he keeps an open mind,

we know full well that he will become God-dependent, because that is what AA

is.



AA is a way of becoming God-dependent. Successful AAs are God-dependent.



If the clergyman who is counselling alcoholics can't see that this is indeed

part of his business and can't borrow some of the techniques that have

brought the active alcoholic into sober God-dependence, then he isn't a very

good clergyman.



I do agree that not every one, merely because his collar is turned around,

is automatically a good counsellor for alcoholism, any more than a

psychiatrist, because he has a degree in psychiatry is a good therapist for

alcoholics. Some are, some aren't. Not every member of AA is equally good at

12th step work. Some people come into AA and they try awfully hard, but that

is just not their work; it makes them unhappy and uncomfortable, and they

don't do a good job. You often find them doing other things in AA, being

active around the clubhouse, making talks, functioning as a member of AA,

yet not spending too much time on 12th step work, because they learned they

did not have the touch, they didn't have the real ability. They have all

done it, they had to do it to find out, but I don't think people should

persist in an area where they don't take to it naturally, and where they are

notably ineffective. And I think this is just as true of the clergyman as it

is of the AA member, or of psychiatrist, or social worker, or psychologist,

or anyone else.





The Role of the Clergy



Just as some people are natural born leaders, some are natural born helpers;

they seem to know instinctively what to do and what to say. They seem to

have such right attitudes, they automatically establish a rapport without

even thinking about it. They are just made that way. Not everybody is,

unfortunately. Now, for the clergyman who is not a 100% successful therapist

in this field, or counsellor, he must learn how to refer and where to refer.

He must accept his role in the team as, you might say, the front runner, the

case finder.



I have often spoken of the clergy as our front line troops. They are leading

the rest; they are out in front of the army, because they are more likely to

turn up hidden cases and, furthermore, to get a hearing, to be able to talk

to those hidden cases, than any other single group. Every survey that has

ever been made indicates that more people go first to their clergyman when

there is trouble than to any other group and in the field of alcoholism, it

is easy to see why. Remember that as a nation, as a people, we look upon

alcoholism as a 100% moral problem, and have done so for generations. Now

moral problems are the business of the clergy. It was only after they had

failed that we turned to the law and said, all right, let the law take its

course. He is a sinner, and he won't do anything about it. You can't save

him. We will let the law take its course.



I think the clergy has a tremendous role to play as case finders and

referral agents to AA, or to a doctor, or to a clinic, or to an Alcoholism

Information Center. This last is really the bridge; the Alcoholism

Information Center was devised as a bridge between the alcoholics who are

out there unready or unwilling to commit themselves by going directly to AA

or to a doctor or to a clergyman. But they will go somewhere that has got

information on it, because they are not committing themselves; they can go

in and ask for information; they always ask for information for a friend,

you know, and they get quite a lot of information. The people in the

information centers are well enough trained so that they know this, and

almost always they get the admission out of this individual, "Well, I am the

friend," before he leaves. Sometimes it may take two or three visits, but if

this person has brought himself to go there once, and he has been properly

handled, he will come back.



The information center is not a treatment center; it is a referral center.

And many clergymen use their local information centers very heavily. They go

there to inform themselves also, because this is the place where one can go

to find out everything that is currently known about alcoholism and what

resources exist in a community, what doctors are knowledgeable, so that when

an alcoholic is sent to them they don't say, "Oh, you are no alcoholic. Take

just two," or some such silly thing, as far too many doctors are still

doing.



This information is available to you, if you have a Council on Alcoholism,

and it operates an information center. It is available to you just as to any

other citizen, except that the information center is twice as glad to see a

clergyman come in, because we recognize their value to us. We know that

often they are getting in where nobody else can get in. We know that often

they know who the alcoholics are, or where they are, better than anybody

else. And if they will themselves become fully informed, they will be able

to do an outstanding job.


0 -1 0 0
2405 Fiona Dodd
About Marty Mann: "The Sick Person We Call an Alcoholic" About Marty Mann: "The Sick Person We Call an Alcoholic" 5/15/2005 2:33:00 AM


Mrs. Mann, once a victim of liquor, tells what we can do to help those

who would quit but can't.



By B.J. Woolf



Yale University is sponsoring a new course in education. It is not being

given in the college buildings, but it is one which its sponsors hope will

affect the entire country and foster a better understanding of one of the

most common of all diseases.



The National Committee for Education on Alcoholism, in existence for a year

and a half, is being largely financed by the university. Its primary

function is to change public opinion regarding alcoholism and to aid in

establishing a program for its treatment.



For, according to the executive director of the committee, the drunkard who

rolls in the gutter is as sick as the man suffering from some mortal

disease. The only difference between the two is that there is hope for the

former; with the proper treatment he may become a worthwhile citizen.



And, judging from the executive director herself, one must be tempted to

believe what she says. For Marty Mann, according to her own story, was a

victim of the craving for alcohol. The only reason she did not lie in the

gutter was that she had enough money to have a place where she could be

helpless and sodden. Today Mrs. Mann is an attractive, smart- looking woman

in her thirties. Her clear complexion, her alert blue eyes and her

manner bear no trace of years of hard drinking. As she told me her story she

might have been recounting the trials and sufferings of another. She seemed

detached from the victim whose longings she recalled, as separate an entity

as Dr. Jekyll was from Mr. Hyde.



Moreover, although she said her illness was not cured but arrested, she

expressed no fear of a relapse. And when I asked her to what she attributed

the change, she ascribed it to Alcoholics Anonymous, an organization founded

in 1934 by a former drunkard who had successfully reformed another habitual

drinker. The organization now has nearly 400

chapters in the United States and Canada and claims a national membership of

more than 15,000. Its members are not ashamed of having been sick and are so

grateful for their own recovery that they try to help others, offering at

their meetings friendship, counsel and guidance.



It was not only what Alcoholics Anonymous did or her but also what it has

done for others which influenced Mrs. Mann to undertake her present work.

Now, in addition to directing the activities of the national committee from

its New York headquarters, she tours the country, giving lectures on the

best ways to conquer alcoholism. "The alcoholic," she says, "is a sick

person who can be helped and is worth helping. This is

a public health problem. Apart from the economic aspect - for the alcoholic

is an expense not only to himself and his family but also to the community

at large - the humanitarian side is tremendously important.



"Our committee is endeavoring to teach the public that alcoholics must not

be shunned but helped. We are getting local programs started throughout the

country to make clear the basic facts about alcoholism, the need for a

change in attitude towards those afflicted and the best methods for solving

the problem through community action. We are

assisting in the establishment of local committees, composed of

representative citizens, which will act with our assistance in combating the

evil.



"We are making available literature on the subject, explaining the treatment

of the disease either at home or in clinics, and encouraging the transfer of

alcoholics from jails to hospitals. A man should not be jailed for being

drunk; he should be sent to a hospital to be cured.



"At the present time there are but two clinics for drunkenness in the entire

country; yet alcoholism is as prevalent a disease as either tuberculosis or

cancer and one that, rightly handled, is more easily treated. Our committee

proposes to play the same part in fighting the disease as the tuberculosis

committee does in its field. We are certain that when people in general

become aware of the true state of affairs they will help in stamping out

this evil. Do you realize that there are few places in the whole country

with adequate facilities for the care and treatment of alcoholics?



"In the first place, alcoholism must be correctly diagnosed. One type is the

symptom of an underlying mental ailment. This requires the care of a

psychiatrist and will not yield to ordinary treatment for alcoholism. To

cure it, the mental condition must be cured. On the other hand, so-called

secondary alcoholism responds to simple re-education - that

is, making the patient realize his illness and convincing him that his

physical make-up is such that it is impossible for him to drink in

moderation. This is the method employed by Alcoholics Anonymous. In some

cases this re-education must be accompanied by either medical or psychiatric

treatment and sometimes even by institutional care.



"Until the clinics are established with experts in charge, all drunkards

will be handled in the same way, and there is little chance for their

recovery. But in establishing these clinics we must watch one important

thing: they must not be too closely allied with courts. They must be places

no one need be ashamed to go to, places which to not brand the patients as

lawbreakers. One of the principal aims of our committee is

to encourage the establishment of such clinics throughout the country and to

assist them with all the scientific data on the subject."



As she puffed a cigarette Mrs. Mann went on: "Alcoholism is like greatness.

Some people are born alcoholics, some achieve alcoholism and others have

alcoholism thrust upon them. I belong to the third class, for it was

prohibition that did the thrusting.



"I was born in Chicago and my people were well-to-do. I had everything for

which a girl could ask, including a year at school in Florence. When I came

back to this country I was in many ways just like other girls in my set. The

usual coming-out party, dances and other social events filled my life.



"But America's noble experiment was being tried out and decent young men

thought it was smart to go around with hip flasks. In addition, they would

take us girls to little places where they must be recognized through a

peephole before being allowed to enter. I was young and happy and gay and I

thought it great fun to take a drink.



"One thing I did not realize then - I did not learn it until years later -

was that I, like three-quarters of a million others who are known and

countless others who are not known, may be called allergic to alcohol. We

are the unfortunates who are not immune to it. And there is no Schick test

as there is for diphtheria, which can determine a person's

immunity. One only finds out too late."



She went on to say that there are those who drink in moderation. They enjoy

a certain release after a drink or two. Their tensions are eased and this,

she believes, is a perfectly legitimate reason for their drinking. But they

do not need to drink. A movie, a theatre or a visit to friends serves the

same purpose.



As she continued her story it was hard to believe that she was talking about

herself. She seemed calm and detached. There was humor in her talk and there

was nothing of the "professional dry" in her manner. While apparently a

certain emotional urge brought about her recovery. It was not accompanied by

the jingle of tambourines or the "step-up-and-be-saved" shouts of the

sawdust trail.



She told of her marriage a year after her debut and the discovery that her

husband was an alcoholic. She does not blame him for her drinking, for she

had the disease when she was married. But even his example did not stop her.

Within a year she divorced him and drank more than ever. Then she went to

England to get away from herself.



While she was there her family suffered financial reverses and she had to go

to work. At first she became an interior decorator and later became

associated with a photographic establishment. And all the time she kept

drinking more and more to feel "normal."



"Of course," she said, "like all alcoholics, I made the usual excuses. I

kept saying to myself that I could stop it if I wanted to, and I persuaded

myself that I was drinking for business reasons. But I was miserable and

finally I became convinced that I was going crazy. Strangely enough, I never

once attributed my mental state to my drinking, but was sure that I was

drinking to calm my nerves.



"Things got worse and worse. I became melancholic. Twice I tried suicide and

finally one of my business associates insisted that I go to a sanitarium. I

decided to return to America.



"By this time I was a confirmed drunkard. For weeks I would stay in my room,

too drunk to do anything but lie in bed. Even then I did not attribute my

condition to drink. I was sure that it was my brain and that I would end my

days in a mad house.



"Finally friends persuaded me to go to a sanitarium in Greenwich. I did not

seem to improve much, but one day the doctor handed me a copy of 'Alcoholics

Anonymous.' I glanced through it and became angry. I was not an alcoholic.

This had nothing to do with me. So in a fit of temper I threw the book

across the room. Then something happened which I cannot explain. The book

lay open on the floor and as I picked it up my eyes

lighted on the words, 'We cannot live with anger.' They attracted me and I

sat down with it and began to read. I became interested and suddenly the

truth swept over me. I was an alcoholic. I had an obsession of the mind

coupled with an allergy of the body."



She wrote to Alcoholics Anonymous and began getting letters of encouragement

from them. Then she came to New York to attend their meetings. "Here were

decent people," she said, "all in the same boat as I. They did not look down

on me nor did they lecture me. They did not say they were cured, but that

their illness had been arrested. They did

not touch liquor because they knew if they did they would become sick once

more. They did not suggest that I sign a pledge. All they did was to advise

me to promise myself that I would not drink for twenty-four hours and when

the twenty-four hours were passed to make myself the same promise again."



Their tolerance, their understanding and their desire to help all made a

deep impression upon her. Once or twice she slipped, but when they heard of

it, instead of lectures they gave her sympathy. They themselves had done the

same thing.



Today Mrs. Mann is a firm believer in the efficacy of this system in the

treatment of many cases of alcoholism. She does not attempt to explain why

it works. But she says it is successful in about 80 per cent of the cases.

Undoubtedly group therapy plays an important part. Being able to talk

plainly with no shame to others who have been through the same distress

means a lot. For, she says, no one except an alcoholic can

truly understand the feelings of one.



"Those who have attended our meetings," she said, "who came to scoff have

remained to pray. At these meetings men and women who have recovered get up

and tell their experiences. All of them are intensely sincere in their

desire to help and, while there is no particular religious dogma involved

all of us recognize a power higher than ourselves which has helped us. To

some it is God, to others a spiritual force which cannot be explained."



In carrying on the work of the committee, Mrs. Mann sees Alcoholics

Anonymous playing an important part.



"But," she says, "please don't get the idea that our committee is a

crusading outfit that is going around the country with hatchets trying to

smash up gin mills. Those of us who are alcoholics are personal drys because

we realize that we can't take liquor in moderation. But this does not mean

that we believe that those who can should be deprived of it. For us it is

drunkenness or dryness. For those not afflicted as we are, to drink or not

to drink is not such an important question."



Source: The New York Times Magazine, April 21, 1946.


0 -1 0 0
2406 Fiona Dodd
Skid Row U.S.A. Part 1 Skid Row U.S.A. Part 1 5/15/2005 2:06:00 PM


Skid Row U.S.A. Part 1









By WILLIAM J. SLOCUM

Collier's Magazine [Part I], 1949



Perhaps you'll recognize one of your old friends or schoolmates on this tour

through the jungles of our cities. Skid Row is an open jail for men whose

only crime may be poverty or loneliness.

PART ONE OF TWO PARTS:

I have just traveled 8,000 miles, groping my way through the missions,

saloons and flophouses of a dark and sometimes dank jungle known as skid

row. I saw thousands of men, most of them drunk, half of them dirty, and all

of them beaten by life. I talked, drank, ate and sang hymns with them. I had

some small adventures, too, which weren' t very important. What might be

important though, is that I probably met someone you have known.



If you went to Perdu, Villanova, the Haskell School for Indians, or to

Heidelberg in Germany, it may be that I crossed paths with an old classmate

of yours. Or, if you are a doctor of medicine with a wide acquaintanceship,

it is possible my roommate in Kansas City counted you a friend. He and I

shared a six-by-four chamber with a crate full of chickens.



If you are a pampered hambone living in Hollywood, come along with me; step

into your chartreuse convertible, drive down to Fifth Street in Los Angeles

and park outside the blood bank. Sooner or later you' ll see him, and

perhaps recognize him. He gets $4 a pint for his blood, a sum which is

immediately translatable into a couple of gallons of muscatel.



Are you a member in good standing of the Officers' Club? Then, try Congress

Avenue in Houston. You may recognize the man I saw there. He was a

lieutenant colonel, up from the ranks, sir. Or check Clark Street in Chicago

for a West Pointer, or Howard Street in San Francisco for an Annapolis man.



Did you know a linguist? Scout the Madison Street jungle in Chicago. Because

a derelict there surprised a cop by speaking to him in Gaelic. An assistant

state' s attorney got Italian from him. Later he lapsed into Chinese. A

Greek lawyer, called in, said his Greek was good. "Sure, he could get by,"

the lawyer explained. "You see, he doesn' t speak modern Greek much. Just

classical Greek."



This man won' t be hard to find. He' s a Negro.



I traveled 8,000 miles before I met somebody I knew myself. I ran into a

schoolmate on the corner of Stanton Street and the Bowery in New York at

seven fifty one morning. (A saloon on Stanton Street hands out "coffee and "

each morning when the doors are opened at 8:00 A.M.) My old schoolmate was

waiting. He laughed when he saw me and said, "you' re getting fat. You drink

too much beer." Meeting him cost $5.



I started this tour of Skid Row in Chicago where I met Captain Joseph Graney

of the Desplaines Street Police Station. The captain made me a little bet.



"If you' re going all over the country to look at Skid Row I' ll lay you 15

to 5 you meet an old friend," he predicted. "And I' ll tell you something

else. You' ll meet guys who talk better than you, think better than you, and

dress better than you. But you just won' t meet anybody as lucky as you."



The captain was right on all counts.



Alcohol: the Cause or the Result?



Skid Row is the end of the road for thousands of Americans. It is a jungle

of crumbling tenements, twisted shacks and filthy alleys. It is an open jail

for men who are guilty of no greater crime than being poor, or not getting

along with their wives, or just being lonesome. Sure, many drink, but no man

can honestly say whether alcohol is the cause or the result of their

hopelessness.



Skid Rows are at their gaudiest in big cities, but if there are 5,000 or

more people in your town, chances are you have a Skid Row of sorts. You

think not? How about that part of the city where the ne' er-do-wells

gather-a couple of drunks, the old panhandler, the shiftless handy man, the

fellow who never amounted to much after the war (pick your own war) and the

village idiot? That' s Skid Row.



If you live in a big city you know the place. In New York it' s the Bowery,

biggest and cruelest of them all. Chicago has two small Rows plus

bloodstained Madison Street. There is also Howard Street in gracious San

Francisco, the dirtiest, drinkingest and most depressing thoroughfare in the

land. In Los Angeles it' s Fifth Street off South Main where the bartenders

direct you to the nearest blood bank when you run out of money and need some

quick cash.



Proud and booming Houston has its Congress Avenue where the bums try to talk

like Gene Autry, try to look like him, and never spill a grain of tobacco as

they roll their own with quivering hands. In Kansas City, the flophouses on

Main Street and the tin-can shacks on the banks of the Missouri have at one

time or another housed a great Middle Western brain surgeon, a millionaire''

son, a farm equipment engineer who was the best man in his business, and

wonder of wonders, Missouri's leading madam.



Dungarees or blue jeans are the traditional uniform of Skid Row, but a

neatly dressed man excites no interest. He can be a sightseer, a businessman

off on a bender, or one of the highly prosperous gentlemen who run the

saloons, flophouses, barber colleges, pawnshops or two-bit movie houses that

infest the jungle.



The saloons sell 10-cent gin at a profit. Barber colleges are numerous

because there are always plenty of men in the neighborhood who are willing

to shed a few drops of blood in return for a free shave. The two-bit movie

houses provide a comfortable place to sleep despite the endless gunfire

exploding from the sound tracks of the old Westerns that are Skid Row' s

customary cinema fare.



I spent a month on the Skid Rows of the nation and visited all these exotic

hangouts of the unlucky and the unwary. I also visited a quiet old building

on Hillhouse Avenue in New Haven, Connecticut. In it work some of the

brilliant and consecrated men who are devoting their lives to studying

alcoholism. If anything is to be done for Skid Row bums, the whys and

wherefores of drunkenness must first be understood. The men at the Yale

Clinic are trying.



To the vast majority of people liquor is refreshment, a part of good and

congenial living. And wine, always more exotic than the hard stuff, recalls

the warmth, the richness and the good taste suggested by its historic use in

religious ceremony.



That' s what alcohol generally means to most of us. But to the 90 per cent

of the Skid Row population who are chronic drunks, alcohol-in any form-is

the be-all and end-all of their sordid existence. It is pursued as other men

seek fame, fortune or the third blonde from the end.



The other 10 per cent live there for financial reasons, usually because

their earnings or their pensions permit nothing better. Some are ducking

alimony payments or more serious complications. Others simply are misers.

Many old-timers eke out their last days in fleabags because they can fins

companionship there without the regimentation to be faced in the Old Folks

Home.



But the typical Skid Row bum will drink anything. Three Chicago policemen,

planted inside a stolen automobile in a garage, watched one bum tap an

engine and then lie on his back to catch the spouting antifreeze alcohol.

Rubbing alcohol and other forms distilled from wood are diluted or "cut" to

make "smoke," a universal Skid Row drink.



Bay run, hair tonic and canned heat are also widely used. The solid canned

heat is reduced to liquid by putting it in a piece of thin cloth and then

squeezing it. The resulting poison is known among the cognoscenti as a "Pink

Lady."



Death or blindness is the frequent end result of this kind of drinking. As a

minor note in a major tragedy, "smoke," "Pink Ladies" and the like do not

produce the sense of well-being common to accepted alcoholic drinks. They

merely numb, render unconscious and perhaps bring on death.



An oft-used drink along Skid Row, however, is wine. Fortified wines. They

run slightly over 20 per cent alcohol and are therefore about half the

strength of a shot of whisky.



There is a popular police theory across the nation that the "winos" (or

"wineeos" as some Chicagoans call them) will drink fortified wines because

they keep a man drunk longer. The winos disagree. I was told at least a

hundred times in response to my question, "I drink wine because I can' t

afford whisky." When a Skid Row bum does have a stake he drinks hard liquor.



The business of getting drunk starts with the dawn. The haggard man walks

around with one hand outstretched. In that hand is a nickel or a dime. He

hails each passing comrade with "I got a dime." The other in turn sings back

how much he has. They join forces and continue the search for a third and

fourth, or until they have among them enough to get a bottle.



There are certain customs and etiquettes observed. The largest contributor

usually gets the first drink, but after that it is rotation drinking without

regard to contribution. If two men have enough to buy a pint they will do

so, but not three. Three will wait until they have a fourth, and perhaps

even a fifth man, in order to get a larger bottle. A non-contributor often

can get a drink. However, custom limits him to just one, unless he has spent

the night in jail. He may then join the rotation. These gentle rules apply

everywhere except in New York. There, Bowery protocol is: No money, no

drink.



Shelter is a distant second need to alcohol in the Skid Row pattern. Food is

a bad third. Even in the mildest of weather the bum wants a bed or, as he

calls it, a "flop." He knows he must sleep and his need for a bed is one per

cent comfort and 99 per cent sheer survival. If he sleeps in a park or an

alley he can reasonably expect to have his shoes stolen and his pockets

sliced out of his pants. He will be too drunk either to know or to resist.



Many Names for Flophouses



The commonest of Skid Row shelters are the flophouses. The entrepreneurs of

these substandard stables prefer to call their hostelries "lodginghouses."

The clients of the "lodging-houses" prefer such basic descriptive

terminology as "fleabag," "scratch house," "flop-house" and a long series of

accurate, but unprintable names. Prices vary slightly the country over, but

the difference is not great. In general a dormitory cot costs a quarter and

a private room usually sets a guest back about a half dollar.



The private rooms, called "bird cages," are six feet by four feet and

contain a bed and locker. The walls are built at least two feet short of the

ceiling, and wire netting stretches across the top of each cell. This

netting is a ventilating device, and as the evening wears on, ventilation

progressively becomes less of a blessing.



Each floor of a flophouse has a few "suites." These are rooms which have

windows. They rent for 15 or 20 cents more than the regular rooms. They also

have electric lights, a rarity in the majority of lodginghouses.



Many flophouses are patent firetraps. New York and Chicago recently cracked

down on the proprietors. But they remain firetraps, nevertheless.



Anybody (male) gets into a flophouse by plopping down the necessary fee and

muttering a name to the clerk. The clerk tosses the guest a key and

scribbles down his interpretation of the name.



All you get for your money is a flop. If you smoke you get tossed out. If

you have a visitor in your room you both get thrown out. If you make any

noise (Not uncommon when you go to bed with a jug) you get the heave-ho.

Seldom does anybody get his money back when evicted.



Credit regulations are basic the country over. There is no credit except for

the steadiest customers and pensioners. A steady customer is defined as a

man in residence for more than six years. He can expect two nights' lodging

on credit, then out he goes. The pensioner gets a better break simply

because his check comes to the hotel, and the management forces him to

endorse it on the spot. These rare courtesies are likely to be withdrawn

immediately if the recipient forgets to tip the clerk. Strangely, the

itinerant guests invariably tip the clerk a nickel or a dime.



Some Skid Row bums, usually pensioners, live in the same flophouse 15 and 20

years. Two of the Four Horsemen gallop the corridors of the nation' s

fleabags 24 hours a day. The ambulance and the hearse are almost as common

as the patrol wagon which makes regular rounds picking up drunks out of the

gutters.



It is impossible to get statistics on the Skid Row death rate but Chicago,

whose Skid Row population varies seasonably between 7,000 (spring and

summer) and 15,000 (winter), reported last winter that 50 corpses a month

are found in the Skid Row area. Another 50 persons are removed from Skid Row

to die in hospitals.



Missions sometimes have dormitories and "bird cages." The missions are

cleaner and invariably more expensive than a hotel flop. They are not

popular with Skid Row bums because their admittance requirements are higher

than the flophouses.



In many cities there are also dilapidated rooming houses which usually cater

to a reasonably permanent clientele. A lady in Kansas City runs one which

has eight pensioners. None of the guests has seen his check in months. She

handles everything.



When a Skid Row bum is without a flop for the night he "is carrying the

banner." When he is tormented with a hang-over that screams for a nerve

placating drink he is "sick." A bum who says he is "sick" or "carrying the

banner" can be certain of relief from his fellow bums if among them they can

dig up the necessary funds.



Soup and coffee are the staple items of a Skid Row diet. Where prices are

high (40 to 50 cents for a portion of meat scraps, potatoes and all the

bread without butter you can eat) a regular meal comes close to costing as

much as it would in a modest restaurant located in a poor section of town.



Chicago and New York fit this category. But wherever a man can get meat and

potatoes for about a quarter, as he can in Kansas City and Los Angeles, it

sometimes seems to me that he could do better to get his nourishment from

wine. Such restaurants are called "horse markets" by their suspicious

customers.



Chef Earns All He Gets



A restaurant on Madison Street in Chicago pays its Skid Row chef $150 a week

and he is worth it. A strange characteristic of Skid Row restaurants

everywhere is their attitude on cleanliness. They are either unspeakably

filthy or as spotless as a hospital operating room. They all specialize in

the cheapest and most obscure cuts of meat, and their prices vary in each

city.



Missions hand out doughnuts and coffee in the morning and soup and coffee at

night. But when a man eats in a mission he has been broke and hungry a long,

long time. A few saloons give their regular customers coffee and cake in the

morning. And soup is occasionally doled out in the afternoon. But the saloon

usually uses only three or four bowls at a time, so the bums must wait while

the early comers empty and clean a dish.



Free soup and coffee are always a miracle in alchemy. Somehow the cooks

manage to water down the water.



The citizen of Skid Row has the same need-if not the same lust-for money

that distinguishes his more normal brother. And he gets it precisely the

same way. He works for it, has it given to him or he steals it. Skid Row

seems to be evenly divided among those who won' t work and those who can' t

work.



Panhandling is a prime source of revenue in any jungle. Sometimes it' s

plain begging, but more often the price of a pint is earned through devices

such as peddling pencils, shoelaces, and the like. The "lumbermen" or crutch

carrying cripples can beg $30 a day with ease. However, when one has made a

$5 stake he simply calls it a day and heads for a package store. The bums

have learned that, for some reason, a young man on crutches does better

financially than an older person. All begging is risky business because the

police are wont to discourage it with controlled violence, but they dare not

touch a cripple.



Beggars hang together in groups of four of five. Frequently only one of the

gang will work a full day while the others loaf. Each man simply takes his

turn.



Meet Trampdom' s Upper Crust



The gandy-dancers are the Skid Row aristocracy. They work for the railroads,

laying track, grading roadbeds and digging drainage ditches. Their name is

derived from the rhythmical movement they once made as they tamped gravel

and cinders tightly around railroad ties. They worked in pairs, bobbing up

and down. Modern machinery has made this type particular type of work

extinct, but there is other heavy labor easily worth the standard $1.06 to

$1.09 per-hour rate. That shoots up two cents per hour when the gandy-dancer

has a year or more of continuous service, a most unlikely eventuality.



The gandy-dancer usually works from May 1st to November 30th. During this

period he frequently leaves Skid Row and lives in work camps where he must

pay for inferior food and bad lodging. At the typical camp the tab varies

from 65 cents per meal to $2.93 a day. He works six, but pays room and board

for seven days. Many railroads maintain labor offices on Skid Row. Others

contract for help through commissary agents who supply the men and feed and

board them. The agents' profits comes out of the food and lodging bill.



A gandy-dancer is entitled to unemployment benefits from the railroads based

upon how much money he makes. These benefits, plus local unemployment

relief, help see him through the winter, or as he says, "Keep me safe to

Paddy' s Day." A few gandy-dancers, as soon as they hit town, will pay their

flophouse rent in advance for December 1st to St. Patrick' s Day. Most of

them are lucky if they have a nickel left a week after they come in from the

camps. Agents say 70 per cent of the men stay at work throughout the season.



From my own observations, I doubt it by 70 per cent of their estimated 70

per cent.



Many go out to pick fruits or vegetables. This is piecework and those who

have the strength and the necessary manual agility can make as much as $12 a

day. The food is always better than the railroad camps provide and is

frequently excellent by any standards. Labor agencies are numerous in Skid

Row and help supply agricultural workers.



It is an accepted custom for a man to sign on as a gandy-dancer so he will

be shipped close to the Connecticut tobacco fields or the California

vegetable crops. Then he jumps the railroad and justifies it, if he bothers,

because of the bad food and dirty living quarters that seem to be part of

the railroad camps.



When a man comes back from a period of gandy-dancing or an agricultural job

with a couple of hundred dollars in his pockets, he wants a shoeshine. A

bootblack on Kansas City' s Skid Row told me, "I' ve shined shoes that didn'

t have any soles on ‘em. They always throw you a half buck. If they have any

money, they' ll get a shine three or four times a day. I don' t know why but

they all love to get their shoes shined."



The shoes may be polished in a bar- room and often a man who is flush will

leave his wad with the bartender. He may or may not drink it all up in a

night. Obviously no man can drink $200 worth of two-for-a-quarter whisky in

a single evening but there are repeated rounds of drinks for the house. And

the bartender usually keeps tab with equal abandon.



Men who want a day' s work will gather at a rendezvous point in Skid Row to

be picked up each morning by independent truckers. The pay is usually a

dollar an hour and no Skid Row laborer will accept hire from an employer who

insists upon withholding taxes. He wants $8 for eight hours and the trucker

can pay the government anything Uncle Sam has coming. This work is as

unpopular as it is arduous, so four or five men will band together to take

daily turns at working and each day' s $8 is divided among the group that

night.



Most of the handbills distributed in any town are set out by Skid Row

workers. To get around minimum-wage laws, an hour is not used as a unit of

time in this industry. An hour is the duration it takes to distribute a

specified number of handbills. In crowded areas an hour is equivalent to 125

deliveries; medium crowded it' s 100; and sparsely settled suburbs are 75.

Payment in this field seems to work out to around 35 cents an hour for a

day'' work. But it can be a lot less.



The lowest form of Skid Row labor is bottle collecting. Men trudge around

picking up empties which, by a custom which is nation-wide except in New

York, are carefully lined up along the curbs for the convenience of the

bottle-man. He gets a cent and a half for gallon jugs, a cent for quart

bottles and a half cent for pints. And they must be wine bottles, because

whisky bottles by law cannot be refilled.



Brisk Trade with Blood Banks



If you have ever been given plasma or serum you are closer to Skid Row than

you think. Thousands of bums peddle their blood to legitimate banks, many of

which are located in, or reasonably adjacent to, Skid Row. The price for a

pint which is to be reduced to plasma is $4 in California and a little more

in the East.



A blood donor is generally limited to five bleedings a year, but a man can

go broke a lot more than five times during 12 long months. Records are kept,

but identification is a haphazard thing on Skid Row. Arms are examined for

recent punctures and in Los Angeles each donor has the fingers of his left

hand painted with a compound which is not visible unless the hand is placed

under a blue fluorescent lamp. It takes about eight weeks for this solution

to disappear completely. I watched one bank turn away 32 men within two

hours when the lamp showed telltale blue on their fingers. Recently,

however, a Skid Row chemist discovered a solution that erases the stain

within minutes.



Clear-blooded alcoholics from Skid Row make up the largest part of the

nation' s donor population. But their contributions mix easily with those

from church groups giving blood for charity, or from young men who need the

price of a few gallons of gas for an evening date, and from other young men

who need money to buy mike for their babies. The blood banks in Los Angeles

normally hit peak production just before Income Tax Day.



Pensions account for a large, if not the largest, portion of income. Most

pensioners do not draw enough to allow better living standards.



The steel and concrete jungle is heavily populated with remittance men

drawing small monthly checks from relatives and with Army and Navy

pensioners. The retired servicemen are usually as drunk as anybody in the

bar- room, but they are invariably immaculate.



One of the most extraordinary seminars I ever heard started in a Bowery

saloon when one old gentleman complained of his rheumatism and said, "I can

go up to the Old Soldiers Home. But I don' t want to do that yet." He went

on to say, "There' s a law you know. No soldier of Uncle Sam can be a public

charge."



General agreement was voiced and then a bleary old gent said, "You know,

America is the greatest country in the world." This was immediately

acknowledged as gospel by all and sundry and there began a round-table

discussion among a half-dozen down-and-out hulks, each vying to add further

vocal tribute to the land of opportunity.



There are a few women on Skid Row, for a variety of reasons. Perhaps one

explanation is that the weaker sex is made of sterner stuff. Another more

obvious argument is that society just won' t allow a woman to sleep in the

gutter. I saw a cripple fall and split his face wide open in front of

Chicago' s Haymarket Theater and the box-office lady didn' t pause a second

in the job of applying her lipstick. But let a woman doze off in a hallway

and the police station switchboard lights up like a Christmas tree. Almost

invariably the calls are from indignant females.



The female Skid Row consists, obviously, of the bordellos of the land. But

the inmates therein rarely wind up in the gutters. The mortality rate among

prostitutes is high. But so, too, is the marriage rate. And when a girl

finds she has to call quits to such a career she can always go home.



Few Women Among the "Down"



Traveling from New York to California and back, I saw four out-and-out Skid

Row drunks of the opposite sex. I don' t know how many thousands of

alcoholic men I saw. The professional phrase for a bum who has dropped to

the sidewalk is "down." I saw at least 500 males who were down during a

month in the jungle, but just two females.



I did see perhaps 50 women who obviously lived on Skid Row. There are no

flophouses available to them, so they live in tiny rooms. They are

pensioners or beggars. A few shelters for women do exist, but they are

expensive and the tenants are subject to expulsion if, after a 12-hour day

of selling pencils, they so befoul themselves as to have a couple of glasses

of beer.



Although Skid Row is almost completely free of sex, and few females are ever

seen on it, women are a perpetual topic of conversation at the bars and over

the tables in the flophouse lobbies. Almost all Skid Row bums insist that

women put them where they are. At first I shrugged off that theory as an

alibi. After a month of closer listening, however, I would suggest that any

error is in the direction of understatement. In addition to the bums who are

certain that women put them on Skid Row, there are others who unmistakably

were driven there by women and don' t realize it.



To clear up that last statement first: Policemen all over the country told

me to look for the derelict who had been the "youngest son." He was not hard

to find. He was, in fact, everywhere. He was the boy who had stayed home

with Mother while the older brothers went out and got themselves set in

business. When Mother died, the youngest was finally forced into a

competitive world. Perhaps he started at the age of forty-about 22 years too

late.



He stands alone, bereft of his mother' s comfort and with a tight silver

cord still tied around his hands and his brains. Whisky, he soon discovers,

erases his fear, his confusion, and his humiliation. Soon he is on Skid Row.

Quite frequently he is supported by checks from his older brothers who ask

only that he stay to hell away from them.



He himself believes that he' s on Skid Row because he couldn' t get along

with his family back in Des Moines. He' s there, of course, because his

mother didn' t give him the same break she gave his brothers.



"Too Much Mama" May Harm Son



A slight variation of the youngest son who stayed home with Mama is the case

of the only son who did the same thing.



The Yale Plan Clinic is in the throes of conducting a survey which is not

yet nearly complete. But the figures which have so far been compiled carry a

tremendous impact. Mark Keller of the Yale Group has made the following

statement on the basis of what has been learned so far:



"We are making a study on the subject. It is not yet complete but we now

have statistics indicating that 40 per cent of alcoholics are either 'only

children' or ‘youngest.' Also, the more siblings older than the subject, the

more likely he is to appear as an alcoholic." Siblings are brothers or

sisters.



So much for Mama who is, after all, a woman. The most frequently recurring

episode in the Skid Row story goes like this. The Hotel McCoy is the Grand

Hotel of Chicago' s foul Madison Street Skid Row. It has 800 rooms divided

among three floors, each cubicle measuring roughly four feet by six feet.

Rates are 60 cents a day except for the rare rooms with windows. With

ventilation the price jumps to 75 cents.



A handsome automobile halted before the McCoy and one of the two ladies in

it daintily hailed a policeman.



"Officer," she said, "we' re afraid to go in there but we would like to see

Mr. John Jones. Would you ask him to come out?"



The policeman entered and the clerk pointed out Mr. Jones who was quietly

reading a comic book and enjoying a chew of tobacco. "Jones," said the

policeman in the courtly manner of all Chicago cops, "there' s a couple of

babes out there in a big car. They want to see you."



Jones, being on Skid Row and being in the presence of the law, cowered. "Do

I have to go out?"



"Nope. But they' re real rich looking kids. Furs and everything."



"Is there a redheaded old woman with them, Officer?"



"No. Just the two young ones."



Jones smiled and got up. "Okay. Let' s go. Those are my daughters. But if

that redheaded old bag of a mother of theirs is along, I' m running right

back in here."



Jones, Skid Row bum but proud father, went out to meet his daughters. He was

one of the vast army of men who have fled a nagging wife for the delights of

an all-make Skid Row flop and some peace and quiet.



None of the men I met admitted his life had been blighted by a maiden who

spurned his offer of matrimony. Nor did any charge infidelity on the part of

their wives.



But the doting mother, and the nagging wife must take the blame for

thousands who seek escape on Skid Row. Liquor, too, plays a heavy role here,

of course, and no woman can be criticized for objecting if her husband is

perpetually plastered. But, like the chicken and the egg, it would be

interesting to know which came first.



What steps are being taken to wipe out Skid Row-U.S.A.? Next week' s

installment exposes the inadequacies of our programs to help the unfortunate

men who are America' s living dead.



Source: Collier' s, August 27, 1949


0 -1 0 0
2407 Fiona Dodd
Skid Row U.S.A. Part 2 Skid Row U.S.A. Part 2 5/15/2005 2:07:00 PM


By WILLIAM J. SLOCUM



Collier's Magazine [Part II], 1949



Within our cities there is a world of living dead where lonely, despairing

Americans seek escape from themselves. The author of this two part article

traveled 8,000 miles to get a close-up of Skid Row, U.S.A. Every city and

town with a population of 5,000 or more has its own human jungle. Crumbling

tenements and filthy alleys mark the end of the road for thousands of

Americans. Part 1 dealt with the way vagrants go about getting a drink, a

flop or an occasional stake. But what is society doing to rehabilitate these

men?



CONCLUSION



A weird little tale was recently unfolded in Chicago that somehow managed to

encompass everything that goes to make up Skid Row, U.S.A. A bum was found

dead in the Madison Street jungle and they carted his body off to the

morgue. His pockets were crammed with identification, so officials were able

to notify a Wisconsin family that their father had departed this world. The

wife and a couple of daughters came on and identified the remains.



The body was taken back to Wisconsin and buried with full American Legion

honors. A $1500 insurance policy was settled and all went well for two

weeks. Then the family received a peremptory note from the morgue giving

them 48 hours to claim Father or he would go to potter's field. The family,

baffled by this development, came running to the Desplaines Street police

station, which has jurisdiction over the Madison Street Skid Row.



Captain Joseph Graney quieted the woman and told them the morgue had

originally made a mistake in concluding the body was that of their father,

and the family had compounded the error by identifying the strange corpse.

While the Captain was talking to the ladies, however, they showed him a

picture of their father, taken a decade before. Captain Graney looked at the

picture and bellowed, "I saw this same guy last night in front of the Star

and Garter. He was plastered. Wait here a minute."



Graney hopped into a squad car. In five minutes he was back, dragging behind

him a very live and reasonably sober gentleman. It was, indeed, Father

himself. As soon as the initial shock had worn off Father spoke. "Fooled

you, didn't I?" he gloated. "You thought I was dead, eh? Sorry to disappoint

you." With that he made a vulgar noise in the direction of his wife and

requested the captain's permission to return to the peace and quiet of his

flophouse.



The possibility of intended fraud is remote and unimportant to this grisly

anecdote which capsules so much of the Skid Roe story. Father did not merely

dislike Mother. He hated her. Father's respectable family and his war record

suggest he had not long been an anonymous alcoholic. Father had recently

been "jack-rolled" while drunk and it is reasonable to suspect that the man

who later died was the one who had picked his pockets. That would explain

how Father's identification papers were found on the corpse.



One drunken derelict preying on another, sudden death and the completely

broken family, these are Skid Row-the American jungle.



In New York, a Bowery tavern owner named Sammy Fuchs made an effort to do

something to help the bums who wanted their relatives to be notified in case

of death. From them he accepted envelopes which the bums numbered and

sealed. Inside they put the names of their next of kin. Sometimes papers to

be forwarded were included. The bums in turn carried little notes on their

person reading: "In case of death tell Sammy Fuchs to open Envelope 17." Or

Envelope 11, or whatever the identifying number would be.



"I sent off dozens of telegrams," Sammy told me. "I never looked at anything

except the address. I know one envelope contained papers which were supposed

to secure a big estate for a Skid Row woman's illegitimate son. She told me

about it before she died and I hope the kid got it. I sent one telegram to a

rich Pennsylvania banker to tell him his son rolled off an East River pier

and drowned."



Early this year burglars broke into Sammy's saloon and carted off the safe

which held the envelopes.



Sammy runs a Bowery saloon that has a dual personality. From 8:00 A.M. to

8:00 P.M. it is just another Skid Row dive. From 9:00 P.M. to 4:00 A.M. it

becomes a sight-seeing mecca for thrill-hungry out-of-towners. The hour

between eight and nine is used to clean the place up and create atmosphere

by lining up prop Bowery characters. After nine o'clock ancient entertainers

sing with great gusto, and a benevolent old man, well into his sixties,

plays the meanest piano I've heard in a long time.



Experiments in Rehabilitation



Sammy has made an interesting experiment in rehabilitating Skid Road

characters the country over. He straightens them out, buys them clothes,

pays a month's rent and gets them a job. He estimates it costs him about

$350 per man to do a complete job. He has experimented thusly 18 times and

claims four of his rehabilitation projects are still off Skid Row.



"You can't let 'em live on Skid Row and expect 'em to stay sober when they

see all their friends drunk," says Fuchs.



Another Fuchs theory-"The only ones who have a chance to straighten out are

the young ones"- is an opinion universally shared by policemen and judges

all over the country. The scientists at the Yale Plan Clinic, where the

problem is being studied carefully, confirm that they young are not beyond

redemption, but in measured academic tones Yale suggests that Sammy, the

cops and the judges are nuts. "A young alcoholic has very little reason to

want to sober up," they point out. "He has never experienced the rewards of

a normal life-family, children and a job."



According to Dr. Robert V. Seliger, first-rate psychiatrist and executive

director of the National Committee on Alcohol Hygiene, Inc., 30 to 40 out of

every 100 alcoholics may be helped back to health by modern psychiatric

treatment. They are sick in the same way that a man may fall ill of

pneumonia, or smallpox, or diabetes.



As Dr. Seliger points out, alcohol itself does not cause alcoholism. To the

millions of Americans who drink regularly or occasionally without letting

alcohol interfere with their lives, liquor is a refreshment, a part and a

symbol of gracious living. But most alcoholics drink to excess seeking

escape from emotional ills.



Missions do what they can to help the sick and despondent on Skid Row. They

are everywhere there, beckoning all with signs of gold and blinking neon.

But to the men on the rows, they represent only a place a man can get a

soup, coffee and bread.



I entered a mission on Sunday afternoon. Services had started, but I was

greeted by a preacher. "Welcome, brother," he said. "Get yourself a book."



I got a hymnal and took my place among 20 other men. Fifteen were Skid Row

bums, clean, hung-over, shaking and miserable. The other five were

well-dressed by any standards. Four were businessmen who had been saved from

Skid Row. One was a visiting clergyman who had come to listen to the sermon.



We sang three hymns. Then the businessmen rose in turn to tell their

stories. A sermon followed this, and when it was ended, the preacher asked

whether anyone felt called upon to speak up. The room was redolent with the

aroma of hot soup and coffee, and the hungry men were concentrating on that.

There was no thought of talk.



We sang three more hymns and then it was time for grace. The minister said

it, trying not to look self-conscious as he gazed down at the bowed and

frowsy heads of his sick and hungry congregation.



After that the men rose and formed a line for a tin cup of soup, a half cup

of coffee and a slice of bread. They gulped the food and left hurriedly.



Alcoholics Anonymous Gives Aid



Hard-working members of Alcoholics Anonymous are another force for good

along Skid Row. Faith is especially mentioned in six of the 12 steps of the

program for recovery the organization uses.



Alcoholics Anonymous is everywhere, in the jails, the courtrooms and the

hospitals. Sometimes A.A. members are received with open arms by officials,

sometimes they are brushed off as tiresome nuisances. They keep insisting

that a drunk doesn't belong in jail, and that, when he does get to a

hospital, he should receive the same care he might expect if he were a

well-to-do citizen.



New York City is a case in perfect point, illustrating the conflict in

official attitudes. At Bellevue Hospital A.A. are sometimes brushed off by

some busy and impatient doctor. "I didn't spend half my life studying

medicine merely to take care of weak-willed drunks," he will complain. But

at Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn, run by the same City of New York,

A.A.'s are welcomed Its members and interested doctors sit in joint

committee to see how they can better cooperate in helping the penniless

alcoholic.



The district attorney of San Francisco bows a reverent head in the direction

of the "South of Market" chapter of A.A. which works in Skid Row. In Los

Angeles, A.A. teams of two patrol the Lincoln Heights court 24 hours a day

and any Skid Row bum who needs a cup of coffee or a double-header of rye to

stave off the d.t.'s gets them and no questions. The "Alinon Club" in Newark

is fighting the good fight in a rough part of the country. "Alinon" has to

its credit the rare case of a woman who spent 16 years on Skid Row and has

been "dry" two years now.



In New York City the Twelfth Step House at 53 Barrow Street has turned an

apartment house basement into a refuge for any man or woman who is willing

to walk the short distance from Skid Row. He can get anything that a group

of human beings who are themselves pretty poor can give him: food, a suit of

clothes, a job and that precious thing, an understanding ear.



Twelfth Step House was started by an A.A. who wanted to do something for

what his group calls "low-bottom drinkers." A "high-bottom drinker" is an

alcoholic who has a little money, a home and some friends to help him

through his travail. A "low-bottom" is one who has nothing. Last January

this man, who is not rich, paid $50 to cover a month's rent on a basement

which had been unoccupied since prohibition.



Other A.A.'s pledged one, two, or five dollars a month to keep it going. It

is open from noon to midnight. A Skid Row drunk walks in and he is soon

talking to an A.A. who can truthfully top any story of degradation or

misfortune the bum can tell about himself. He is given coffee and food, and,

if he volunteers a request for help in sobering up, a silk-smooth operation

begins.



First he has to "sweat it out." That's a three or four day process during

which a man gets sobered up first and then goes through the agonies of the

dammed, fighting against a nervous system which screams for a drink. While

he is "sweating it out," A.A. veterans of the same sort of personal hell

talk to him, listen to him, walk with him through the night and even buy him

a double-header if their expert eyes tell them his system must have a little

alcohol. When sleep comes at last he is taken to a flophouse and his new

friends buy him a night's lodging.



When the "sweating out" period is finished, the man gets a suit of clothes

and a job. Twelfth Street House has an arrangement with a half-dozen

hospitals to hire men it recommends. Since January more than 150 Skid Row

drunks have been straightened out and returned to work through its efforts.



A.A. flatly refuses to compile statistics about cures it has effected

because its axiom is, "An alcoholic is cured only when he is buried."



Every night 35 to 50 former Skid Row bums can be seen at Twelfth Step House.

They sit around talking or listening to impromptu speeches-academic

discussions of the problems involved in fighting alcohol. Talk and

companionship are the very heart of the A.A. technique.



Everybody helps everybody else. I saw an old man hustle in and survey the

room. He spotted a young fellow who was with a group which was heatedly

discussing the effects of "sneaky-pete," a generic term for fortified wines.

He nodded the boy away from the group and excitedly whispered, "there's a

dishwashing job open up on Twenty-third Street. I couldn't take it on

account of my bum arm. But I told them you'd be right up. Six bucks." The

boy got his cap and was gone in half a minute.



Employed Make Contributions



No working member of Twelve Step ever enters the place without a couple of

loaves of bread and perhaps a half bologna under his arm. They all try to

contribute to the kitty, but one of the few rules of the place is "No

contributions from men working one-night stands. Okay from those steadily

employed."



The policeman is the Skid Row bum's mortal enemy; he is as frequently his

only friend. My own experience with policemen in the Skid Rows of America

ran along the same line. In Chicago, Captain Graney told me, "We don't want

you writing about Chicago's Skid Row. But you're going to write about it

anyway, so we'll answer every question you ask us. Of course we're ashamed

of our Skid Row, but if you can figure out an answer, you're smarter than I

think you are. We give the bums all the protection we can. It's not enough,

I guess. Still, if you assigned a cop to every bum on Skid Row, the bums

would still get in trouble."



In San Francisco, Captain Leo Tackney of the Southern Station glowered at me

and said, "I'm not going to tell you anything and neither is any of my men.

It's bad for San Francisco. If you go into Skid Row, you go at your own

risk. If you take any pictures, you'll do it at your own peril." I told the

captain that the pictures would be taken. I also assured him I was going

through his Skid Row.



Three separate times I walked all over San Francisco, rated by many as

America's most charming city, always with the feeling I was being followed.

I lost that feeling only after I dropped in for a chat with District

Attorney Pat Brown. The D.A. agreed that Skid Row was bad for San Francisco

but he also felt it would be much worse if people stopped trying to do

something about it.



I later learned why Captain Tackney was so irate. It seems they are making a

movie about Skid Row-U.S.A. and the producer of the film has chosen Captain

Tackney's precinct as the locale of the epic. It is a choice with which no

man would quarrel.



I tried one more police department. That was in New Orleans. When I had

finished my conduced tour in that city, I was stumped.



The first day in town I had asked kind and expert friends to tell me where

New Orleans' Skid Row or rows were. They told me and I made arrangements to

visit the jungle the next day in the company of a police department expert.

However, there was not a bum to be see anywhere, not even in the jails.

Later I visited the same areas unaccompanied and found all the bums I ever

wanted to see. I asked them where they had been all afternoon. They said it

had been real hot, so they stayed off the streets.



No young man ever took up police work in anticipation of a career that would

be spent chaperoning Skid Row bums. It is not surprising, therefore, that

those assigned the task sometimes go about their duties with a maximum of

muscle and a minimum of persuasion. But for every cop who makes enemies of

the men he is supposed to help, there are two like Chicago's Steve Wilson

and Los Angeles' William Shurley. And there is the immortal "Book-Him" John

McGinnis, also of Chicago. "Book-Him" John is now relieved of his arduous

Skid Row chores and works with children, but his name is still revered on

the nation's Skid Rows.



When a bum put in a hitch as a gandy-dancer with the railroad-the name

traces back to the jiglike step used in tamping down the track beds-and

quit, got fired, or finished his unwelcome job, he headed back to Chicago.

He might have a couple of hundred dollars in his pocket and the unhappy

knowledge that he would blow it all in a night if left to his own customs

and habits. So he would seek out McGinnis and turn over the major part of

his money to him. "Book-Him" John doled it out until it was gone, and after

that John was always good for a touch.



The officer never lost a nickel through these loans. Usually the debtor paid

off at the first opportunity. But id he went off on the railroad again or

took to the hobo jungles, John would pass the word along that he was in

default. The debtor would hear about it from every Chicago resident who

crossed his trail. And if he found himself overlong in arrears, he also

found himself barred from the mulligan stew, the bottle and the

companionship of his fellow hobos or gandy-dancers.



McGinnis was a one-man warrant squad on Skid Row. If any flop resident was

wanted, John only had to pass the word. "Tell McCarthy to get over to the

station house. Somebody is looking for him." "Somebody" could be a relative,

a friend, an insurance adjuster or even a warrant. It didn't matter. If

McGinnis sent out the word, McCarthy came ambling into the police station

within an hour.



Every morning, when the unhappy contents of a jail's drunk tank were lined

up before a judge, McGinnis would stand at the court's elbow. Theoretically

he was there to identify the bums, but in practice he would make

recommendations. "Ah now, this is a nice lad, Judge," John would say as a

shivering hang-over stood before the bench. "A nice lad. He's been working

and only been on Skid Row a couple of days. Let him go, Judge."



The next might hear, "Judge, this fellow's a nice lad but he's been laying

around six months. He needs a doctor, Judge. Send him away for a while."



But John's favorite expression and the basis for his nickname was, "Now

here's a lad been laying about drunk for six months. But a nice lad. Let me

take care of him, Judge. I'll book him." John would wave the man aside until

the court recessed. Then the man, along with several colleagues, would be

shepherded to a group of railroad labor representatives and John would

persuade them to book the derelicts for gandy-dancing jobs.



Chicago's Steve Watson is in the McGinnis mold. He's in court every morning

with his advice. 90 per cent of it compassionate. I did hear him say to

Judge Edward Pluczak, as one man came up for sentencing, "Judge, this is one

of the best thieves this side of the Mississippi." The man got the

equivalent of 30 days when he sullenly refused an offer to rebut Watson's

estimate.



Steve walks his beat amid an endless salvo of greetings. When his charges

attempt to shake hands, as they frequently do, Steve shows them his gloved

hands and begs off with some excuse about a skin ailment.



I saw a young man laid out cold on Madison Street. He looked dead to me.

Steve bent over him, applied some pressure behind his ears, and bloodshot

eyes opened in an ashen face. The man managed a pathetic smile, "Hello

Steve," he said. "Please help me up, will you?"



In Los Angeles, William Shurley has earned the confidence of his charges. He

will say to a man, "You're pretty bad off. I want go to go in. Stand over by

that lamppost until the wagon comes by." The man will stagger to the

lamppost and wait until the patrol wagon, making its endless rounds,

appears.



Out-of-Bounds for Bums



Most cities have off-limits areas for bums. The Skid Row resident who

crosses Texas Avenue in Houston does so at his own peril; or he can expect a

good clout if found panhandling around New York's Times Square. He is

supposed to stay "south of the slot" in San Francisco; and in Kansas City he

passes the Kay Hotel at his own risk. Boston cleans out its Skid Rows by

making periodic promises of a year in Bridgewater for vagrants and drunks

who are apprehended.



Some police departments attempt to enforce a "keep-moving" policy. I heard a

crippled beggar, of extraordinarily handsome features and cleanliness, plead

with a judge to let him off. "I've got relatives in Detroit and I'm going

back to see them."



The judge said, "You're not going back to Detroit and you know it. If you

do, Hitler and Mussolini will get you." The men who were lined up behind the

cripple smiled. The cripple himself grinned one of those

"you-ain't-just-talking-judge" grins. "Hitler and Mussolini" are a couple of

Detroit policemen who have dedicated themselves to keeping Detroit's Skid

Row population as fluid as possible.



No city overpatrols its Skid Row. Most municipalities seem to ignore their

jungles. There is a universal theory among law-enforcement men that there is

little or no crime on Skid Row. They couldn't possibly be more wrong.



The major criminal is the "roller," "jack-roller" or "mugger." He is the

same man operating under a different name in different parts of the country.

He steals shoes, shirts, pants, and even the underwear of his victims.

Usually prey is too drunk to know, but sometimes he attempts to resist and

is hurt. I staked a battered old wreck in Kansas City, but when he saw me go

to my pocket he said, "I'll meet you around the corner. If those guys see

you give me anything, I'll get jack-rolled."



Almost any man found dead in Skid Row without a bullet or a knife in him

died of "natural causes" so far as the cops are concerned. Public statistics

keep tab on murders and since police efficiency is judged by those

statistics, the cops try to avoid any additional unsolved homicides among

the nonentities of Skid Row.



Before going into the details of how murder is committed on Skid Row, it is

necessary to understand that the resistance and physical condition of most

alcoholics is tremendously substandard. They hurt easily, they cure slowly

and assistance comes tardily if at all. Nobody knows whether a man curled up

in the hallway is suffering from too much sherry or a cracked skull.



Fist fights are common on Skid Row. Bottles make excellent weapons and they

are everywhere. Bartenders and flophouse bouncers are busy men who

frequently have only enough time to practice a bit of rudimentary jujitsu to

invoke order and then "leave 'em lay." And of course the "jack-roller" takes

many a life for a pair of shoes or the nickel and three pennies to be found

in a bum's pocket.



Police Keep Watchful Eye



In most cities a patrol wagon, manned by policemen called "ragpickers,"

makes regular rounds collecting the pugnacious and the man so drunk he may

stagger into a moving trolley car or truck. Bums who are sleeping it off are

rarely bothered, unless they have bedded down in front of the chamber of

commerce. New Orleans sends out the wagon on call. The Second Precinct

there, covering the beloved French Quarter, speaks proudly of an elderly

client who regularly telephones and says, "Sergeant, send the wagon for me.

The usual corner."



New Orleans and Los Angeles give the pick-up bum a chance to sleep it off

before subjecting him to formal arrest. He gets a flat six hours. If he can

make the 5:00 A.M. "kick-out" line and sign a false-arrest waiver, he is

freed. In most other cities he must face the judge.



The police, the magistrates and the victims all agree that this is an

expensive and useless procedure excused only by the fact that a man in the

drunk tank is less likely to be injured.



Drunk tanks are the same the country over and they are shameful. Most of

them have no facilities beyond bare, cold floors. The police claim they

would be delighted to install cots and rudimentary plumbing, but the

condition of the prisoners makes such sharp and unyielding objects a serious

menace.



When court convenes, the night's haul is herded into a special corner of the

room. The non-Skid Row citizens who seek justice are separated and their

cases, usually domestic quarrels and landlord-tenant disagreements, are

heard first. Then the Skid Row group is lined up before the bar.



The air of frustration that hangs over the courtroom defies description. The

long weaving line of hang-overs is wrapped in hopelessness; the judge is

baffled; so too are the prosecuting attorneys and the police. Everybody is

licked and knows it.



Names are called and men answer. The old-timers-a history of 200 arrests

calls for no undue interest-are resigned; the youngsters are frightened; and

the rare gentleman from the proper side of the railroad tracks is confident

he can talk himself free, even though he looks about pprehensively in fear

that he may see an old acquaintance, such as his wife.



A few of the old-timers shrug, plead guilty and hope for the best. Most of

them give it a bit of battle: "I've got a job waiting for me, Judge," or,

"I'm getting out of town tonight, Your Honor," or "I'm a hard working man,

Judge. I just slipped a little last night." If the judge has enough

interest, he will ask the hard worker to show him the palms of his hands.

Calluses will support his story.



Frequently a man says, "Please, Judge, give me 30 days." Invariably it is to

get hospital treatment for wounds or infections. Occasionally it's a

desperate effort to get sober or something to eat. But generally the men are

frantic to avoid jail.



It's a dreary procession spotted occasionally with high drama. I heard the

father of a young newspaperman plead with a judge, "We have $15,000 to

assure my boy complete medical and psychiatric treatment, Your Honor."



Before the Judge could answer, the boy spoke, "Father, please. You know and

I know it's just a waste of money." His father left, weeping, as the boy

took another 30-day sentence.



A twenty-one-year-old ex-G.I., hungover and petrified, answered all

questions in a quavering voice, his head hanging. He was asked what kind of

a discharge he possessed. His head came up, he straightened and his voice

was firm as he answered, "An honorable discharge, sir."



In Los Angeles the court told a young woman who had been picked up several

times, "I'm going to send you to jail to sober up."



"No, Judge, please don't do that," she begged. "I'm in Sister Essie's show

tonight. I've got a big part. I'm a very important angel." The important

angel was freed to take her place in the religious pageant at Sister Essie's

Skid Row mission.



Judge Edward Pluczak, of the Desplaines Street Municipal Court in Chicago,

looks like a tough Army sergeant, but he is surprisingly gentle. He told me,

"I'm sick and tired of meeting boyhood friends, college pals and members of

the Chicago bar whom I once idolized. Sending these people to jail doesn't

do any good. What I need is a non-prison farm where they could go to sober

up. Nobody ever gave up liquor in a cell block."



San Francisco's realistic district attorney, Pat Brown, is in complete

agreement with Judge Pluczak. Brown's theories are particularly apropos

because his bailiwick is the drinkingest city in the United States,

according to surveys published by Brown's own office. "I want a half million

dollars to set up a rehabilitation center that is not a jail," Brown told

me. "I want to stop the practice of tossing alcoholics in jail or freeing

them to get stiff all over again. We won't straighten out very many, but if

we can rehabilitate 10 per cent, the experiment will be cheap." All four of

San Francisco's newspapers support Brown. Alcoholics Anonymous, Stanford and

California universities are behind him, too.



Brown laughed and said, "I'll probably never be elected dogcatcher after

saying this, but they're doing a magnificent job across the bay in Oakland."



Brown isn't the only one with an eye on the Oakland project. They are

watching iy at Yale, too. And they are watching it wherever municipal

officals do not feel that Skid Row is something that should be kicked under

the rug and ruled out of public discussions.



California Experiment Promising



Alameda County, which is Oakland, has rented an unused military installation

for $1 a year. It is called the Santa Rita Rehabilitation Center and covers

3,300 acres. Alcoholics are given a choice of jail, or the Center. It is not

as obvious a choice as you might think, because at Santa Rita there are 550

acres of vegetables under cultivation and that means hard work for the

physically fit.



Most of the inmates are sent there for 90 days but it is not a jail. When a

man gets himself straightened out and healthy he can leave in less that 90

days. Alameda County Sheriff Jack Gleason says, "We give them psychiatric

assistance, work and an opportunity to build up their health. I won't say

how well the plan is working because it's too new. Give me two years. But it

looks pretty good, so far."



To spare their sensibilities, the Skid Row patients at Santa Rita were

separated from other inmates. The Skid Row group complained against this

discrimination. "We're as good as they are," they argued. Now all mix

together, and psychiatrists and policemen agree it is better that way.



Raymond McCarthy, executive director of the Yale Plan Clinic, thinks Oakland

is on the right path. He told me, "The punitive approach to the Skid Row

problem accomplishes nothing beyond making a city look neater.



"But," he added, "the majority cannot be helped by treatment on an

out-patient level. They must be isolated for medical and psychiatric study.

Jail is no good. Prison farms are just as bad. The Skid Row bum, to be

saved, must have supervised freedom." McCarthy admitted "supervised freedom"

is a top-notch contradiction in terms. "The sad fact seems to be," he said,

"that these men and women must be institutionalized in an institution that

doesn't exist today."



To that, and to all that went before it, I can add only this: I didn't meet

anybody on Skid Row who liked it. I didn't meet anybody who ever expected to

leave it alive. I didn't meet anybody who deserved to be there. It is a

world of the living dead and an utterly fantastic exhibition of man's

cruelty to man. It deserves as much study and research as cancer or heart

disease because, like those scourges, it can happen to you and yours.



THE END



(Sidebar)



An Editorial



Skid row, U.S.A., is the end of the line. When a man gets there he can't go

any lower. He can only go up-or out. Helping him up is not easy, for he is

one of the most perplexing members of society, as well as one of the most

pathetic. He is neither insane nor a criminal, but a man who has surrendered

to adversity and sought oblivion at the rock-bottom social level.



Alcoholism is the first and most evident obstacle to getting him back on the

beam. But, as William J. Slocum suggests in this article and the preceding

one, alcohol most likely is not the only problem, or even the basic one. It

may only be a symptom. It is easy to say that drink has driven a man to Skid

Row. But what drove him to drink?



That question can never be answered easily. Sometimes it cannot be answered

at all. But an encouraging number of men are being helped to find the answer

as the understanding of their problems increases. One of the leading

contributors to that understanding is Alcoholics Anonymous, where a man who

still wants to come back can find inspiration and advice from others who

have overcome desperate difficulties that most of us cannot even imagine.



The story of Skid Row is not new or pleasant. But it presents a situation

that has to be faced. Intelligent studies like Mr. Slocum's can help society

to regard the inhabitants of Skid Row not as congenital bums, but as

troubled, unhappy men who, with patient and intelligent aid, may perhaps

resume their places as useful citizens.



Source: Collier's, September 3, 1949





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2408 Roger Wheatley
RE: First 100 members First 100 members 5/15/2005 3:23:00 PM


It would appear that the statistics in the Forward were "fuzzy logic" based on

the authors perception of success, likely embellished some. There were not

actually 100 men and women, but rather close to this number and only a few

women. This was marketing spin.

Those whose stories appeared in the First Edition who later returned to drinking

would not have been yet considered part of the number which returned to

drinking. This may point out a fallacy in some schools of thought which claim

that the great success rate in early AA is attributable to a difference in

quality or philosophy.

The gentleman you cite as a reference [Clancy I.] is not necessarily a

historian. In a similar talk he shared that the Oxford Groups and the Oxford

Movement were basically the same thing and the difference was largely semantic.

Many members of this group will understand that this is not true.


0 -1 0 0
2409 lessspamplease
List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism 5/15/2005 9:02:00 PM


I would add the recent movie "Sideways" to your list. The main

character was (in my opinion) an alcoholic - although I don't believe

that term was ever used in the movie.



Eric


0 -1 0 0
2410 David Grant
Re: Sotheby''s manuscript Sotheby''s manuscript 5/15/2005 4:25:00 PM


Hi Rick,



This very subject came up in a conversation last week with my grand-sponsor. He

knows the buyer personally and shared that he is a collector and has no though

of breaking apart the manuscript (as many have feared) and intends to keep it as

part of a private collection. Keep in mind that this is second generation

information, though I have no reason to doubt it authenticity.



Cheers,



David



-------------------------------------------------



----- Original Message ----- From: <ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sotheby's manuscript



Many of us recall the $1.56 milion paid last June for the final Feb. 1939

working draft of the Big Book, with its accepted bid telephoned in to Sotheby's

from California. What's become of the archival item and its buyer?

Rick T. Illinois


0 -1 0 0
2411 Charles Knapp
RE: how many original members died drunk how many original members died drunk 5/15/2005 5:40:00 PM


Hello Group



I have the following quote about this on one of the 3 x 5 cards I use for a 35mm

slideshow on the history of the Big Book.



"of the 28 veterans (and the article called them veterans) 5 went out and did

not return; 8 Slipped after the Big Book was published, but returned to AA and

15 remained sober."



However I did not include a source on the card. I remember it was something

that came out of New York. I thought it was the Box 459 that came out at the

same time the 4th edition was published, but could not find the figures in the

articles of that issue. I am thinking now it must have been another article

from some other issue of Box 459.



Charles


0 -1 0 0
2412 billherold1017@aol.com
[AAHistoryLovers] Areas in AA organizational structure Areas in AA organizational structure 5/15/2005 5:17:00 AM


I was asked a question last night at a meeting and did not know the answer.

Does anyone know who came up with the idea of using Areas for the structure of

AA as opposed to dividing the country into States?



bill H,



Area 29


0 -1 0 0
2413 Glenn Chesnut
Clarification on Marty Mann reference Clarification on Marty Mann reference 5/17/2005 2:10:00 AM


----------------------------------



Message 2391 from "dinobb_dinobb" <dinobb_dinobb@yahoo.com> asked about some of

the people whose stories were put at the back of the original manuscript who

died drunk. "The ones that stand out are Bill R., Hank P., Ernie G. I know about

stories in the pioneering section -- Marty M. discontinued sobriety, etc."



----------------------------------



Jon Markle pointed out to me that people might be confused by this way of

phrasing the Marty Mann reference and that they might mistakenly think that she

died drunk, which was definitely NOT true.



The story of Mrs. Marty Mann, the first woman to obtain long term sobriety in

AA, was not in the first edition of the Big Book, so in fact her name shouldn't

be included in this particular list anyway. "Women Suffer Too" was only inserted

into the Big Book in the second edition.



But at any rate, Marty did have a brief slip somewhere around 1960. When a young

woman in AA (from Bronxville) drove down to pay a visit on Marty, she found

Marty drunk. The young woman put Marty in her station wagon and took her back

home with her, where the young woman kept Marty there in Bronxville until Marty

sobered up again.



Marty had been sober since the end of 1940. After this brief slip somewhere

around 1960, she never had another drink. She died sober on July 22, 1980.



See Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First

Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous, pp. 262 ff.



Also in referring to Ernie G. we need to distinguish carefully between the two

Ernie's. The index to Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers refers to the one who could

not stay sober as "Ernie G. the first of Akron."



See Children of the Healer p. 51, where Dr. Bob's daughter Sue describes her

marriage to Ernie G. the first of Akron in September 1941, beginning with the

lines: "Ernie was drunk when we got married. He'd stepped off the wagon --

again."



The other Ernie is referred to as "Ernie G. the second of Toledo," a very fine

man, who not only stayed sober to the end of his life, but brought many

excellent people into the program. This second Ernie for example at one point

sponsored Larry W., the man who brought me into the program, and Larry used to

talk about him with such enormous love and admiration.



Glenn



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2414 jlobdell54
Re: Areas in AA organizational structure Areas in AA organizational structure 5/17/2005 6:40:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, billherold1017@a... wrote:

> I was asked a question last night at a meeting and did not know

the answer. Does anyone know who came up with the idea of using

Areas for the structure of AA as opposed to dividing the country

into States?

>

> bill H,

>

> Area 29



In the pamphlet YOUR THIRD LEGACY WILL YOU ACCEPT IT? (November

1950), Bill sets out (pp. 16-17) "Panel No. 1 TO BE INVITED IN 1951"

with columns for "State or Province" (such as "Pennsylvania")

and "Point of Assembly" (such as "Philadelphia" "Pittsburgh"). The

same headings ("State or Province" and "Point of Assembly") are

given for "Panel No. 2 TO BE INVITED IN 1952" (pp. 17-18). Then on

p. 18 is listed "Panel No. 2 (Supplemental) ADDITIONAL 1952

REPRESENTATION FROM SPECIAL AREAS (SUGGESTED)" which includes (for

example) "Pennsylvania [in italics] Harrisburg." On p. 19 is the

following NOTE: "Where large centers are near state or national

boundaries, there seems no good reason why Groups in adjoining areas

may not cross these lines to elect Delegates. For example, at

Detroit, Mich., Kansas City, Mo., Buffalo, N.Y., etc." It would

appear that the term "area" is Bill's and the division into areas

rather than states is present at the beginning, in 1950. Btw the

two parts of Pennsylvania (Harrisburg never got its "area") were for

quite a while known as "Pennsylvania" and "Western Pennsylvania." --

Jared Lobdell


0 -1 0 0
2415 Mel Barger
Re: Clarification on Marty Mann reference Clarification on Marty Mann reference 5/17/2005 7:05:00 AM


I was pleasantly surprised to read Glenn's comment about the second Ernie G.,

who was one of the founding members here in Toledo. I knew Ernie, heard him

speak, and had a number of conversations with him about AA's pioneering times.

He lived in Adrian, Michigan, during his final years.

I've heard that Ernie may have been AA #69 or #70. He claimed Dr. Bob as his

sponsor and knew most of the early Akron members, since he was living near Akron

when he got sober. He was, indeed, a very fine man, and he was representative

of the kind of AA who finds the program and then stays the course until the end.

Mel Barger

-------------------------

Larry W., who brought me into the program, said that when he first came in, he

walked into an AA room, and he saw an old man, "and he just glowed." That was

Ernie G. of course. And he says that Ernie told him, "Larry, you will never

need to betray yourself again."

And that line has stuck in my own mind ever since, as part of the deep wisdom of

old-time AA. I try to remind myself frequently of what those words mean. Ernie

G. is one of those whom I have never met, but who has deeply affected my own

life.

Glenn Chesnut


0 -1 0 0
2416 Bill Lash
Tom P. Passes Away Tom P. Passes Away 5/17/2005 7:56:00 AM


Dear Friends,



On April 27, at 12:01am Thomas E. Powers of Hankins, N.Y. died very

peacefully at home. Tom was sponsored at different times by both Dr.

Bob and Bill W., he worked at G.S.O., and he helped Bill W. write

the AA 12 & 12. He was a great man. He is survived by his one son,

four daughters, and many grandchildren. His family carried out his

wishes for a private funeral and was buried in Callicoon N.Y.



Cards or flowers may be sent to:



The Powers Family

190 Ridge Road

Hankins, NY 12741



Thank you for your support and prayers.


0 -1 0 0
2417 Jim Blair
Re: Areas in AA organizational structure Areas in AA organizational structure 5/17/2005 9:35:00 AM


Bill wrote

Does anyone know who came up with the idea of using Areas for the

structure of AA as opposed to dividing the country into States?



Bill Wilson. I have a tape of him explaining how it was done and it involves

population densities.

Jim


0 -1 0 0
2418 morefromles2
Re: Did Lois drive the motorcycle? Did Lois drive the motorcycle? 5/18/2005 5:04:00 PM


Yes, Lois did drive the cycle. See PASS IT ON pg 70, which says, "... and in

the sidecar, perched on top of it all, Bill himself, draped and dangling over

the cowl. Lois was driving."



I saw that motorcycle in the barn at the Burnham House in Manchester, Vermont.

I lived in that house briefly as a child, and Rogers lived with my family then

and for several years. I have written a short article about my related history.

I am now aged 80 and live in Colorado Springs, CO. Regards.... Les Cole


0 -1 0 0
2419 Tony
Recipe for sobriety Recipe for sobriety 5/19/2005 11:37:00 AM


Would anyone happen to know the "recipe" that Dr. Bob used when making

his concoction of tomatoes, sauerkraut, and Karo syrup? I'm looking for

measurements and did he just blend it or what?


0 -1 0 0
2420 dinobb3
man who mastered fear man who mastered fear 5/19/2005 1:13:00 PM


CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE RELATIONSHIP WAS BETWEEN ARCH

TOWBRIDGE AND SARAH KLEIN.


0 -1 0 0
2421 Mel Barger
Re: man who mastered fear man who mastered fear 5/20/2005 8:06:00 AM


From: "dinobb3" <dinobb3@yahoo.com> "CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE

RELATIONSHIP WAS BETWEEN ARCH TOWBRIDGE AND SARAH KLEIN."



Sarah Klein was Archie's landlady during his early months of recovery in

Detroit, after he had returned from staying with Dr. Bob and Anne in Akron for

almost a year. She became so enthusiastic about AA that she permitted Archie to

hold meetings in her home. This earned her great praise in Detroit and I recall

seeing her being applauded at large meetings in Detroit in the 1950s. She was

never a member herself, just a good friend who believed in Archie and AA.

I did shake hands once with Archie but did not know him. The No. 2 AA in

Detroit was Mike Eshleman, who became a wealthy manufacturer after being fired

in a very humiliating way from a place where he'd worked many years.

I attended Mike's 40th AA anniversary meeting in 1978 in Grosse Pointe,

Michigan, an exclusive suburb of Detroit. Archie had passed on but his brother

attended the party.



From Mel Barger, who experienced great AA in Pontiac and Detroit in the 1950s.


0 -1 0 0
2422 Carl P.
Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages 5/22/2005 10:37:00 AM


Could anybody tell me why "The Doctor's Opinion" is not part of the first 164

pages of the Big Book?



Many Thanks



Carl P


0 -1 0 0
2423 Cheryl Campbell
Recovery based plays Recovery based plays 5/24/2005 4:41:00 AM


I know there is a play on the traditions (I think I have a copy of that one)but

I have also been told there are other plays based on Alcoholics

Anonymous. Does anyone know where I can get a hold of them?



Cheryl Campbell


0 -1 0 0
2424 jimbernlohr
What city, psychiatrist, and hospital? What city, psychiatrist, and hospital? 5/24/2005 9:20:00 AM


Questions on the Big Book, on page 163, "A Vision For You":



lines 13-14:

"more alcoholics per square mile than any city in the country."

What city?



line 26: chief psychiatrist of a large public hospital.

Name of doctor and hospital?



last line on pg. 163:

"When a few men in this city"

Again what city?


0 -1 0 0
2425 morefromles2
Communications between Lois & Rogers Communications between Lois & Rogers 5/24/2005 3:32:00 PM


Does anyone know if there any letters in the archives between Lois

and Rogers between 1930 and later? Rog lived with us in Manchester

and in Wallingford, VT and he became a partner with my father in a

woodworking mill in Arlington around 1935 (Date not clear). I was a

child around 8-10 years old. When we lived in Wallingford Rog spent

one Christmas in New York and returnd to us with presents after

Christmas. Barbara and Cy visited us in Manchester around 1930-31.

Dr Burnham also visted us. I met Ebby there also and was in his

house. Ebby's family house was around the corner from the Burnham

house. My mother went to High school with both Bill Wilson & Ebby

at Burr & Burton there in Manchester. We all, includng Rog, spent

a summer in the Burnham Camp on Lake Emerald, also. Rog had injured

his foot at that time. The well known motorcycle which Lois and

Bill used years earlier was stored in the barn at the Manchester

house. My brother and I thought it was pretty neat. Although Bill

and Lois visted the Manchester house when I lived there, my mother

did not want us boys to see Bill because she knew of his drinking

problem. I appreciate any information about communications between

Rog and Lois. Thanks. Les Cole..... I'm a native Vermonter and

knew East Dorset quite well. I am now living in Colorado Springs at

Age 80. My regular E-Mail is elsietwo@msn.com


0 -1 0 0
2426 Carl P.
Jim S. Son Of A Country Physician pg 232 4th Edition Jim S. Son Of A Country Physician pg 232 4th Edition 5/25/2005 12:15:00 AM


A member in my home group has asked if I could find out what happened

to Jim S., the "son of the country physician."



See "Jim's Story," beginning on page 232 in the 4th edition, the story of the

physician who was one of the members of the first black AA group.



Can anybody help me with this question?



Many Thanks



Carl P.


0 -1 0 0
2427 lorenzo
Open meetings and closed meetings Open meetings and closed meetings 5/26/2005 12:42:00 AM


Dear friends, can you refer me to anything on the origin of the "blue

card" with the closed meeting definition on one side of it and the

open meeting definition on the other. Maybe it was in the Grapevine I

read something about this. My home group is a closed meeting and the

issue of women alcoholics bringing a child with them to a meeting has

come up. Also what to do when a family member is there for "support."

You know how divisive this issue can be.



When I try to imagine the earliest days in AA I can't imagine Lois

would have tolerated working all day in a department store and then

not being allowed to go to a meeting of alcoholics in her own home.



When did this defined division of meetings into closed and open

occur?



Thank you AAHistoryLovers for any response to help our group with

some historic background to the issue we're now dealing with.



Larry G. in Placitas, New Mexico (meeting is in Bernalillo).


0 -1 0 0
2428 Jim Blair
Re: Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages 5/26/2005 10:43:00 PM


Carl wrote: <Could anybody tell me why "The Doctor's Opinion" is not part of

the first 164 pages of the Big Book?>



Because "The Doctor's Opinion" is just that, an opinion of a non-alcoholic. The

first 164 pages is an account of our experiences.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
2429 rmcmillan5630
Twenty-Four Hours a Day author Twenty-Four Hours a Day author 5/23/2005 2:09:00 PM


I was reading the Twenty-Four Hours a Day book published by Hazelden

and a fellow AA member suggested I not read it because the author

committed suicide. Since a well-respected long-timer told him this, I

am curious about the author and his story.



Anyone out there know the author and his or her story? I'd be very

grateful.



rm



------------------------



RM,



Oh please do not repeat this story! Definitely untrue. I don't know how these

weird things get started. I'm sure glad you wrote in to check on it.



Rich was one of the truly good and fine AA old-timers, and his book has helped

countless people get sober.



Rich died of old age on Mar. 25, 1965, at the age of 72, with 22 years of

sobriety. Mel B. has spoken with one of his children, and says that Rich's

family are all enormously proud of the way he lived his life, and the invaluable

contribution he made to the AA program.



Rich began printing Twenty-Four Hours a Day himself in 1948, under the

sponsorship of the AA group in Daytona Beach, Florida, and distributing it from

his basement. Its use quickly began spreading all over the United States, and

it rapidly became the second most important book in AA. All the good old-timers

in my part of the country say that they got sober off of two books: the Big Book

and the 24 Hour book.



Since the 24 Hour book was originally published under the sponsorship of the AA

group in Daytona Beach, Florida, it has always been considered proper to read in

AA meetings any place in the country, and is read from at the beginning of the

meeting in numerous meetings in my part of the Midwest.



(The old-time AA rule was that any book or pamphlet which was published under

the sponsorship of any AA group or intergroup, could automatically and without

question be read from in meetings by any other AA group which chose to do so.

The 24 Hour book, the Little Red Book, and the Detroit/Washington D.C. pamphlet

all fell into this category, and all of them have been read from in AA meetings

all over the US and Canada, as well as many other parts of the world, ever since

they were written.)



In Rich's memoirs, written towards the end of his life, he said that death was

returning to God, and this was where faith alone could carry us across the great

divide which separates our world of space and time from the realm of the eternal

ideas and the infinite reality which lies beyond all else:



"Above all, my faith in the Great Intelligence behind the universe, which can

give me all the strength I need to face whatever life has to offer, is the

foundation of my present life. When I die, my body will return to dust. Heaven

is not any particular place in the sky, but my intelligence or soul, if it is in

the proper condition, will return to the Great Intelligence behind the universe

and will blend with that Great Intelligence and be at home again whence it came.

My problem, in what is left of my life, is to keep my mind or intelligence in

the proper condition -- by living with honesty, purity, unselfishness, love, and

service -- so that when my time comes to go, my passing to a greater sphere of

mind will be gentle and easy."



See the photos of him and his family at <http://hindsfoot.org/rwpix1.html> and

the full story of his life at <http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla1.html>,

<http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla2.html>, and <http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html>.



Also see the other material on Rich at <http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html>

under "Richmond Walker" (near the top of the page, right below the photo of Bill

and Lois on their motorcycle).



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)



------------------------



P.S. Another misunderstanding is very common, so let me say something about that

issue too. Rich was not associated with the Hazelden alcoholism treatment

center in any way. In fact Hazelden was not even started until after Rich had

written the 24 Hour book.



When Rich got old, and the demand for the book exceeded his ability to pack them

up and ship them off from his basement, he asked the New York AA office to take

over the job. That was at the point where New York was so short of money that

they could barely get the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions published, and

their attitude toward both Rich and Ed Webster (who offered them the Little Red

Book) was that any AA group or intergroup which had figured out how to easily

finance the publishing of an AA book was a whole lot better off financially than

New York! It wasn't even a serious question as far as New York was concerned.



At that point, the newly started Hazelden alcoholism treatment center wrote Rich

and offered to take the responsibility for keeping the book in print. Hazelden

sometimes tries to give the impression that it is "their" book in some of their

publicity, but this is certainly not so. It had nothing at all to do with the

Hazelden Model of alcoholism treatment, and is certainly not a statement of the

philosophy of the psychotherapists and psychiatrists at Hazelden.



Twenty-Four Hours a Day is simply good old-time AA at its very best.


0 -1 0 0
2430 Carl P.
Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard 5/22/2005 10:33:00 AM


First of all on behalf of my home group Barking Big Book Study, I wish to convey

the gratitude of the group. AA History Lovers has helped with a majority of the

questions raised by Barking Big Book and in doing so has helped the group grow.

Thank you all.



We as a group are now reading There is a Solution, and we have a two-part

question for AA History Lovers, both concerning Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard.



1) Where Dr Jung replies to Rowland "there are exceptions to cases such as yours

which have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while,

alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me those

experiences are phenomena......." Can anybody tell me where Dr Jung got this

information from, are there any pre-recorded letters or information about

alcoholics having this vital spiritual experience?



2) We understand that Rowland was with Dr Jung for approximately one year. Is

there any information about the type of treatment that he received from Dr

Jung.? What did Dr Jung prescribe to him?



Many Thanks, Carl P.



------------------------------------



FROM THE MODERATOR:



1) Carl, I think your first question is asking whether we have any writings of

Carl Jung, other than this letter to Bill Wilson, in which he talked about his

theories of alcoholism, and the need for a spiritual solution. So this is the

first question to put to our group.



2) I can say something about the second question myself. Some time ago, Bill

Pittman at the Hazelden Archives discovered that the Hazard family's papers were

still in existence, and Bill White (the author of Slaying the Dragon) also

looked at them. Pittman got a college professor named Rich Dubiel to do further

research on this material, and Dubiel published his findings in 2004. What came

out was interesting, and has forced us to revise the traditional story about

Rowland and Carl Jung. From Dubiel's summary of his findings:



"Rowland Hazard may in fact have consulted with the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung

for a short period in 1931 (although no longer than two months at most, based on

the author's study of the Hazard family papers). But Hazard had to be

hospitalized for his alcoholism in February and March of 1932, and then from

January 1933 to October 1934 was again in bad shape and unable to carry on his

business activities. If Jung had helped, it was certainly a much delayed

reaction."



"What seems to have been much more important is that Courtenay Baylor became

Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933, and continued to work with him through 1934.

It is under the influence of Baylor's Emmanuel Movement therapy that Hazard

actually began to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford Group meetings, but

his family was paying Baylor to be his regular therapist."



"In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being

committed to the Brattleboro Asylum, and three months later, in November 1934,

Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene recorded in the

first chapter of the Big Book."



This doesn't mean that Jung's theory about alcoholism requiring a spiritual

solution was incorrect. It just meant that Rowland did not begin any serious

recovery until a couple of years after his sessions with Jung, when he finally

found the kind of people who had the kind of spiritual answer which Jung had

told him to look for. He found this answer partly in the Oxford Group, and

partly in the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club (which had a far greater

interest in treating alcoholism than the Oxford Group).



Boston AA met with the Jacoby Club when it first began in the same way that

early Akron and New York AA began by meeting with the Oxford Group.



SOURCES: Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship: The Role of the Emmanuel

Movement and the Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics Anonymous (2004)

and <http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html>.


0 -1 0 0
2431 John C. Pine
RE: Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages 5/26/2005 11:28:00 PM


Carl,



The Doctor's Opinion started on page 1 in the first edition of the book

Alcoholic Anonymous, and I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation as to why

it was grouped among the Roman numerals from the second edition onward. The late

Don P. of Aurora, Colorado, was among those who pushed for it to be restored to

its original place at page 1.



John P

Richmond, VA



--------------------------------



Original Message:



Could anybody tell me why "The Doctor's Opinion" is not part of the first 164

pages of the Big Book? Many Thanks, Carl P


0 -1 0 0
2432 Cindy Miller
Nell Wing''s 88th Birthday Nell Wing''s 88th Birthday 5/23/2005 5:40:00 PM


She was AA's first Archivist.....



May 27 will be her birthday -- Send her a card?



Ms. Nell Wing

52 Northwood Dr.

West Milford, NJ

07840



--Cindy Miller (Philadelphia, PA)



---------------------------------------------

Fiona Dodd: "Nell made such a fantastic contribution to AA."

---------------------------------------------

Ernest Kurtz: "But for Nell, A.A. would have much less history to love. She

preserved, she fought for, she organized and maintained the very beginning of

the archives. Anyone interested in the history of A.A. is in her debt, and it

might be good to remind the relative newcomers of her contribution to our very

existence."

---------------------------------------------

Jared Lobdell: "A gracious lady who survived many years as Bill's secretary and

then was AA's first archivist: she was ... a very great lover of AA history."

---------------------------------------------


0 -1 0 0
2433 Janis R
RE: Twenty-Four Hours a Day author Twenty-Four Hours a Day author 5/27/2005 2:52:00 PM


Richmond Walker was a credit to AA. How do these rumors get started? Just

proves that being an old timer does not guarantee accuracy. I have been to

several meetings in Daytona Beach and they are very proud of him. More than a

few of their old timers knew him personally.



Janis S. Raley,

Assistant Director



Dallas Intergroup Association

6162 E. Mockingbird Lane, Suite 213

Dallas, Texas 75214

214-887-6699


0 -1 0 0
2434 corafinch
Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard 5/27/2005 6:05:00 AM


Hi Carl,



There are a couple of things I can add. Please keep in mind that Bill Wilson

had only brief conversations about the situation with Jung, and apparently (by

his admission) only second-hand. I have tried to find someone who said they

heard it directly from Hazard, and so far as I can tell even Ebby doesn't make

that claim. Several people were aware of the conversation having occurred, from

what other's had told them. So Wilson's knowledge of it was really only a

general sense of what was said.



I might add also that Hazard's itinerary on his Europe trip, which included his

wife and 4 children, is partially known and there is at most a period of 10 days

when he might have been in Zurich. There is no evidence in the Hazard papers

that he was in Zurich, but it cannot be ruled out.



I think it would be good to keep in mind the possiblity, however remote it may

seem, that a misconception was formed in Wilson's mind about the identity of the

alcoholic. Perhaps it was someone closely associated with Hazard and well known

to Hazard but not to Wilson. One detail in Dubiel's book needs correcting, BTW.

There is a short discussion about the spelling of the name in Jung's reply to

Wilson which is not correct.



By the time Wilson was reconstructing the conversation, he had been in therapy

with a prominent Jungian analyst, Frances Wickes. I would imagine that some of

what he knew of what Jung might have said to an alcoholic would have come from

Wickes. No doubt she would have known well what Jung's views were. He had also

corresponded with other

students and patients of Jung.



As for the source of the ideas: Charles Bufe, in AA: Cult or Cure, mentions that

Jung was probably familiar with some of what James had written. There was a

German translation of the Varieties available from the early part of the

century, and when Jung met with James in Boston around 1910 Jung was much

impressed. The phrase James got from Hadley, about religiomania being the cure

for dipsomania, is in that book. The similarity to what Jung said is very

strong. Perhaps the words of an American ex-alcoholic who ministered to

alcoholics came back to America from Zurich and became the seed of a uniquely

American tradition.



Cora


0 -1 0 0
2435 Jim Blair
Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard 5/27/2005 6:31:00 AM


Carl asked

1) Where Dr Jung replies to Rowland "there are exceptions to cases such as

yours which have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a

while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To

me those experiences are phenomena......." Can anybody tell me where Dr Jung

got this information from, are there any pre-recorded letters or information

about alcoholics having this vital spiritual experience?



The material that comes to mind are two books by Harold Begbie titled Twice

Born Men and Souls In Action which were written in 1909 and 1911

respectively.



The books contain drunk stories of how men and women recovered thru the

Salvation Army.



Also, there are books written by former drunks who turned to misson work and

had their stories published such as Harry Hadly.



Such material was also common in Europe where abstinence societies have

existed long before AA.

Jim


0 -1 0 0
2436 Bill Corcoran
Sixth Tradition question Sixth Tradition question 5/27/2005 10:45:00 PM


Greetings fellow AA History Buffs!



First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for the wealth of

knowledge I have gained from this group. This is my first post,

however.



I was wondering if anyone could expand on the portion of Tradition

Six which refers to the "distilling companies" desire to venture into

alcohol education? A well-repected member of the fellowship was

offered a position in public relations. The desire to refer to the

man as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous was the deal breaker and the

Sixth Tradition prevailed.



Does anyone have any further information as to the person's

identity and location? Also, I would appreciate any references that

my exist to read further on this topic.



Gratefully,



Bill O'C.

Middletown, RI


0 -1 0 0
2437 Susan Krieger
Re: Open meetings and closed meetings Open meetings and closed meetings 5/27/2005 1:42:00 PM


The blue card was a conference action from the 1987 AAWS Conference. It

recommended that AA's primary purpose statement be available as a service piece.

One side would address closed meetings for alcoholics only and the other side

would be for open meeting. The establishment of open and closed meetings is a

much earlier policy. I believe that all meetings were closed and that open

meetings originally were a part of public information, and were speaker

meetings. The public was invited to hear the message of AA.



When I came into AA, it was explained that at open meetings anyone could attend

but only the Alcoholic could share his/her experience. The concern has always

been that many people with other problems other than alcohol have wanted to

become members of AA. The fifth tradition encourages our singleness of

purpose.The idea of supportive relatives is that they can attend open meetings

only. If a group wants their meeting to be closed that is the right of the group

concsience. The needs of the group always preceed the needs of the individual.

Our traditions work!



susank



-------------------------



From: Roger Wheatley <rogerwheatley2004@yahoo.com>

Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:13pm



By the 1987 General Service Conference, it was recommended that an AA "service

piece" be made available which is now the "blue card." I have a tape of the 12

Concepts given by a past trustee who served on that conference (David A. from

Texas) which tells the story that delegates to that conference could not come to

consensus and therefore the blue card did not get conference approved. The

compromise was to establish a "service piece" that groups could use if they

chose to.


0 -1 0 0
2438 Diz Titcher
Re: Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages 5/27/2005 5:44:00 AM


Esther Richards of John Hopkins suggested getting a physician to write an

introduction to what had already been written (Bill's Story and There is a

Solution), so I would think Bill would do just that. It took him 16 years to

realize his mistake.



Diz T.

Tallahassee, FL.


0 -1 0 0
2439 Daniel
RE: What city, psychiatrist, and hospital? What city, psychiatrist, and hospital? 5/27/2005 7:54:00 AM


What city, psychiatrist, and hospital?

(All this info is thanks to the West Baltimore Group)



AA member (Hank P.) in large community (Montclair NJ), more alcoholics per

square mile.



Prominent psychiatrist he contacted/clinic: Chief Psychiatrist for the State of

NJ, Dr. Howard in Montclair, New Jersey.



Chief psychiatrist: Dr. Russell E. Blaisdell.



Large public hospital: Rockland State Hospital in Rockland County near

Orangeburg, New York.



Daniel S. - NYC



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MODERATOR: for some of the additional details which I added to Daniel's answer

to these questions, thanks also to:

Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

"Russ S" <bubba062701@earthlink.net>

"Charles Knapp" <cdknapp@pacbell.net>

"dinobb3" <dinobb3@yahoo.com>


0 -1 0 0
2440 Bob McK.
RE: Recovery based plays Recovery based plays 5/27/2005 7:01:00 AM


From Bob McK. <bobnotgod2@att.net>



We have some skits. Please contact me directly at:

Bobnotgod2@att.net



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Tony Wade <tonybethkaci@sbcglobal.net>



Hi Cheryl,

What kinds of plays are you talking about? Ones that deal specifically with AA

history or just plays with a recovery theme? I have lots of skits that we have

put on in my area (Northern CA) but I'm not sure what you mean.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Daniel" <nailed@earthlink.net>



In New York there was an original musical with 20 original songs running about

an hour and a half called AA: The Musical. It was written and performed by AA's

for AA's and the benefits went to NY Intergroup. It's circulating on DVD in NY

these days.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

FROM THE MODERATOR: If anyone wants more information about these plays, skits,

and musicals, please e-mail Bob McK., Tony Wade, or Daniel.



If you send it to me, and I have to forward it, it gets more complicated and

time-consuming than you can imagine, because (among other things) the Yahoo

system hides the crucial e-mail address from me, and I have to look it up in a

Yahoo list that is only partially alphabetized. Thanks!


0 -1 0 0
2441 Higher Powered
Link between 24 Hour book and God Calling? Link between 24 Hour book and God Calling? 5/27/2005 8:46:00 AM


Does anyone know about the link between "God Calling" ( a book used in early AA)

and the "24 Hours a Day" book?



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

FROM GLENN C. (South Bend, Indiana)



Richmond Walker did not originally intend to write a meditational book. He

wrote down a large number of meditations on small cards which he carried in his

pocket, just for his own use when he was praying and meditating. Some of the

other A.A. members in Daytona Beach, Florida, began reading some of the little

cards and begged him to print them up in a little book for the A.A. groups in

their part of Florida. They used the printing press in the county courthouse,

and Rich distributed them from his basement.



For the small print sections at the bottom of each page in Twenty-Four Hours a

Day, Richmond Walker drew heavily on a book he had discovered, entitled God

Calling by Two Listeners, which had been edited and published by A. J. Russell,

one of the most famous Oxford Group authors. God Calling had an interesting

origin. One of the two women (whose names are unknown to this day) explained in

an introduction how they were inspired to begin their spiritual exploration:



"In the autumn of 1932, I was sitting in the lounge of a hotel when a visitor,

quite unknown, crossed over and handing me a copy of For Sinners Only asked if I

had read it. I answered no, and she left it with me. On returning home, I bought

a copy for myself. I was curiously affected by the book and .... there came a

persistent desire to try to see whether I could get guidance such as A. J.

Russell reported, through sharing a quiet time with the friend with whom I was

then living. She was a deeply spiritual woman with unwavering faith in the

goodness of God and a devout believer in prayer, although her life had not been

an easy one. I was rather skeptical, but, as she had agreed, we sat down with

pencils and paper in hand and waited .... To this day, I cannot obtain guidance

in this way alone. But with my friend a very wonderful thing happened. From the

first, beautiful messages were given to her by our Lord Himself, and every day

from then these messages have never failed us ....”



"Certainly we were not in any way psychic or advanced in spiritual growth, but

ordinary human beings who had more suffering and worry than the majority and who

had known tragedy after tragedy. [And yet] always, and this daily, He insisted

that we should be channels of love, joy, and laughter in His broken world ....”



"We, or rather I, found this command difficult to obey; to others it might have

been simple. Were we to laugh, to cheer others, to be always joyful when our

days were pain-racked and our nights tortured by chronic insomnia, when poverty

and almost insupportable worry were our daily portion ...? Still came this

insistent command to love and laugh and bring joy to the lives we contacted.

Disheartened, one of us would gladly have ceased the struggle and passed on to

another and happier life .... [Yet] He encouraged us daily .... Continually He

exhorted us not to lose heart and spoke of the joy that the future held for us

.... He stressed, most strongly of all, the immense power given to two souls

praying together in close union and at one in their desire to love and serve

Him."



This was the kind of message that could actually speak to struggling, tormented

alcoholics. Richmond Walker decided to take it and use it freely in the small

print sections in each day's meditation in his own compilation. He had to

shorten the work enormously, and eliminate references to calling on the name of

Jesus or contemplating Christ on the cross. Instead of prayers to Jesus, he

turned it all into prayers to God instead, which was very, very important in the

A.A. context. He clarified passages that were difficult to understand, and often

almost totally rewrote the material.



He also added copious material of his own which was vitally important,

explaining what the concept of a higher power was really about, for the help of

alcoholics who literally did not have the foggiest idea of what was actually

meant by the word God.



Perhaps the best way of summing up what Rich actually did would be as follows:

God Calling was a nice little work of early twentieth-century Protestant piety,

replete with the sentiments of the popular hymns from that period, hymns like "I

walk in the garden with Him, while the dew is still on the roses, and the voice

I hear, whispering in my ear, the Son of God discloses." God Calling is still

one of the five or six top sellers in Christian bookstores (Protestant

bookstores anyway). It was deeply moving in many places, but not truly

exceptional -- or not in the sense of Rich’s adaptation. Rich remolded it,

reshaped it, added copiously and cut away equally vigorously, and came out with

what I regard as one of the ten or fifteen true classics of spiritual literature

-- a masterpiece, measured by the standards of the past three or four thousand

years, and including both eastern and western spiritual writings.



I have seen more people make more progress more quickly, by using Twenty-Four

Hours a Day, than I have observed with any other meditational book in use in the

English-speaking world today. (I do not have the same kind of knowledge of the

kinds of meditational books currently available in German, French, Spanish,

Italian, etc.)





SOURCE:

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/richmond_walker.htm

http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla3.html


0 -1 0 0
2442 Tom Hickcox
Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard 5/27/2005 11:20:00 PM


At 10:33 5/22/2005 , Carl P. wrote:



>"In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped rescue Ebby Thacher from being

>committed to the Brattleboro Asylum, and three months later, in November

>1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in his kitchen, in the famous scene

>recorded in the first chapter of the Big Book."



I would note that only a Flatlander would call the Brattleboro Retreat the

Brattleboro Asylum. 8^)



It has a long history in the treatment of mental illness as well as

alcoholism. AAMF, one or two of my uncles has been thru their program many

years ago.



Tommy in Baton Rouge but almost born in Vermont





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2443 Tom Hickcox
Re: Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard Dr Jung & Rowland Hazard 5/27/2005 11:24:00 PM


Hi Carl,



There are a couple of things I can add. Please keep in mind that Bill Wilson

had only brief conversations about the situation with Jung, and apparently (by

his admission) only second-hand. I have tried to find someone who said they

heard it directly from Hazard, and so far as I can tell even Ebby doesn't make

that claim. Several people were aware of the conversation having occurred, from

what others had told them. So Wilson's knowledge of it was really only a

general sense of what was said.



I might add also that Hazard's itinerary on his Europe trip, which included his

wife and 4 children, is partially known and there is at most a period of 10 days

when he might have been in Zurich. There is no evidence in the Hazard papers

that he was in Zurich, but it cannot be ruled out.



I think it would be good to keep in mind the possiblity, however remote it may

seem, that a misconception was formed in Wilson's mind about the identity of the

alcoholic. Perhaps it was someone closely associated with Hazard and well known

to Hazard but not to Wilson. One detail in Dubiel's book needs correcting, BTW.

There is a short discussion about the spelling of the name in Jung's reply to

Wilson which is not correct.



By the time Wilson was reconstructing the conversation, he had been in therapy

with a prominent Jungian analyst, Frances Wickes. I would imagine that some of

what he knew of what Jung might have said to an alcoholic would have come from

Wickes. No doubt she would have known well what Jung's views were. He had also

corresponded with other students and patients of Jung.



As for the source of the ideas: Charles Bufe, in AA: Cult or Cure, mentions that

Jung was probably familiar with some of what James had written. There was a

German translation of the Varieties available from the early part of the

century, and when Jung met with James in Boston around 1910 Jung was much

impressed. The phrase James got from Hadley, about religiomania being the cure

for dipsomania, is in that book. The similarity to what Jung said is very

strong. Perhaps the words of an American ex-alcoholic who ministered to

alcoholics came back to America from Zurich and became the seed of a uniquely

American tradition.



Cora


0 -1 0 0
2444 jlobdell54
Jung, James, and Bill W Jung, James, and Bill W 5/28/2005 12:38:00 PM


The story of Samuel Hopkins Hadley's mission recovery from alcoholism

is (with other such stories) in William James, The Varieties of

Religious Experience, which Jung had read before he met James at

Worcester (not Boston) in 1909 (not 1910), therefore certainly before

the 1930s. While Jung might have read Harold Begbie along the way, he

could have found enough for what he told RH in The Varieties of

Religious Experience. The supposition that it was another alcoholic --

not Rowland Hazard -- that Jung treated is unlikely, given Jung's

letter to Bill W. in 1961. The chronology is uncertain, of course,

but there is little doubt Rowland Hazard saw Jung. -- Jared Lobdell


0 -1 0 0
2445 ArtSheehan
RE: Open meetings and closed meetings Open meetings and closed meetings 5/28/2005 11:20:00 PM


Hi Susan and Roger

The info below was posted to AAHL last July. I hope you find it useful

for the history that led up to the creation of the blue card and

actions that have occurred subsequent to it.

Some points of specifics: the correct name for the Conference is

“General Service” Conference not “AAWS” Conference. AA World Services

(AAWS) is an operating corporation that oversees the General Service

Office (GSO) and publishes AA books and pamphlets. The other operating

corporation is the AA Grapevine. These two entities constitute the

publishing arms of AA (see the AA Service Manual for a fuller

explanation).

Meeting types

The precursor to “The AA Group” pamphlet was called “Partners in AA.”

It was the first publication to define various meeting types. The

types of meeting defined then were “Closed,” “Open” and “Public.” Open

and closed meetings were explained in the pamphlet (along with what

was called a “typical” format for the meetings). Closed meetings were

also explained to include “straight discussion meetings,” “Step

meetings,” Tradition meetings,” “Panel meetings (Q&A type meetings)

and “Beginners meetings.” “Public meetings” were oriented to providing

public information to the community and encouraged inviting members of

the professional community (e.g. physicians, clergy, law enforcement

officials, etc.) to acquaint them with the availability of AA in the

community.

Service pieces

Items that are designated as “service pieces” (sometimes also called

“service items”) do not necessarily escape Conference scrutiny nor do

they lack Conference approval (e.g. Box 459, the “yellow sheet”

Guidelines and directories are among the various service pieces).

“Service pieces” are addressed only briefly in the AA Service Manual

to identify that GSO does publish items in addition to

Conference-approved literature.

The” blue card” was approved by the General Service Conference twice

(1987 and reaffirmed in 1988).

You can do a search in the group’s message archives to access

additional prior postings on the subject matter.

------------------------------------

The “blue card” definitions of open and closed meetings are part of a

series of Conference advisory actions emphasizing AA’s primary

purpose. The “blue card” is sometimes called the “primary purpose”

card. It was first recommended by the 1986 Conference, adopted by the

1987 Conference and reaffirmed by the 1988 Conference.

Below, is a timeline history of Conference advisory actions related to

AA’s primary purpose:

1968 It was recommended that: AA groups in correctional facilities and

hospitals adhere to AA's Fifth Tradition, on primary purpose of

carrying the message to the alcoholic. That anyone with problems other

than alcohol be made welcome at inside open meetings, but not

participate in group activities.

1969 It was recommended that: Guidelines be prepared outlining

procedures for AA members to follow in working with institutions and

ways of informing the nonalcoholic staff about AA. The following

committee recommendations are to be included in the guidelines:

a. AAs attending meetings at prisons or hospitals should be

selected carefully so that relations with the institution's staff

remain harmonious.

b. AA's position on membership in institutional groups be

defined as follows:

We cannot give AA membership to nonalcoholic narcotic addicts and

other unrelated groups or organizations. AA groups in institutions can

welcome anyone with problems other than alcohol to inside open

meetings, but it is suggested that they do not speak or otherwise

participate in these meetings.

1970 It was recommended that: The wording of the 1969 Institutions

Committee recommendation concerning the definition of AA's position on

membership in institutions groups be changed to read as follows:

Open meetings are traditionally open to all interested in AA, but

should be devoted exclusively to the alcoholic problem. Closed

meetings should traditionally be restricted to alcoholics.

1972 It was recommended that: The Conference reaffirm AA group policy

that "Only those with a desire to stop drinking may be members of AA

groups; only AA members are eligible to be officers of AA groups;

nonalcoholics are welcome at open meetings of AA." And, it is

suggested that the word "family" not be used in the name of an AA

group; if AA's and their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet together on a

regular basis, they consider these gatherings "meetings" and not AA

groups. (Floor Action)

1985 It was recommended that: The following be inserted in the

pamphlets "If You Are a Professional" and "How AA Members Cooperate":

The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop

drinking. If the person is not sure about this point, then he or she

is most welcome to attend an open AA meeting. If the person is sure

that drinking is not his or her problem, then he or she may wish to

seek help elsewhere.

1986 It was recommended that: A service item for use at AA meetings

regarding AA's primary purpose be developed by the appropriate

trustees' committee and proposed to the appropriate Conference

committee at the 1987 Conference.

1987 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding AA's

primary purpose be available as an AA service piece.

THIS IS A CLOSED MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

This is a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of AA's

singleness of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to

persons who have a desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a

problem with alcohol, you are welcome to attend this meeting. We ask

that when discussing our problems, we confine ourselves to those

problems, as they relate to alcoholism.

The following statement regarding AA's primary purpose be available as

an AA service piece.

THIS IS AN OPEN MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are

all here--especially newcomers. In keeping with our singleness of

purpose and our Third Tradition which states that "The only

requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking," we ask

that all who participate confine their discussion to their problems

with alcohol.

1988 It was recommended that: The Primary Purpose Card continue as a

service piece.

1990 It was recommended that: "The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the

one-way display and the poster be updated to reflect the findings from

the 1989 Membership Survey.

"The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the one-way display and poster

reflect all the findings of the 1989 Membership Survey. The answer to

Question #14 in the AA survey pertaining to drugs should be presented

as follows:

"In addition to their alcoholism X% of members indicated they were

addicted to drugs," and include the disclaimer "AA's primary purpose

is recovery from alcoholism."

1992 It was recommended that: The 1992 AA Membership Survey

Questionnaire be changed as follows:

a. Add item "f' to Question #3: "this is my first AA meeting."

b. Revise item "1" of Question #5 to read: "Newspaper,

magazine, radio or TV."

c. Change Question #9 to read: "Do you belong to an AA Home

Group?"

d. Revise item "a" of Question #10 to read: "Do you have a

sponsor?"

e. Change item "b" of Question #10 to read: "Did you get a

sponsor within 90 days of coming to AA?"

That Question #14, "In addition to your alcoholism, were you addicted

to drugs?" be removed from the 1992 AA Membership Survey Questionnaire

because the question:

a. Emphasizes problems other than alcohol;

b. Has a tendency to lead to disunity;

c. Could be construed as conflicting with our primary purpose.

1997 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding

Singleness of Purpose be added to the C.P.C. pamphlets: "Alcoholics

Anonymous in Your Community," "AA and Employees Assistance Programs,"

"AA as a Resource for the Health Care Professional," "How AA Members

Cooperate With Professionals," "If You Are a Professional," and

"Members of the Clergy Ask About Alcoholics Anonymous" under the title

"Singleness of Purpose and Problems Other Than Alcohol" at the next

printing:

"Alcoholism and drug addiction are often referred to as 'substance

abuse' or 'chemical dependency.' Alcoholics and nonalcoholics are,

therefore, sometimes introduced to AA and encouraged to attend AA

meetings. Anyone may attend open AA meetings. But only those with a

drinking problem may attend closed meetings or become AA members.

People with problems other than alcoholism are eligible for AA

membership only if they have a drinking problem."

Cheers

Arthur

_____



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Susan Krieger

Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:42 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Open meetings and closed meetings



The blue card was a conference action from the 1987 AAWS Conference.

It recommended that AA's primary purpose statement be available as a

service piece. One side would address closed meetings for alcoholics

only and the other side would be for open meeting. The establishment

of open and closed meetings is a much earlier policy. I believe that

all meetings were closed and that open meetings originally were a part

of public information, and were speaker meetings. The public was

invited to hear the message of AA.



When I came into AA, it was explained that at open meetings anyone

could attend but only the Alcoholic could share his/her experience.

The concern has always been that many people with other problems other

than alcohol have wanted to become members of AA. The fifth tradition

encourages our singleness of purpose.The idea of supportive relatives

is that they can attend open meetings only. If a group wants their

meeting to be closed that is the right of the group concsience. The

needs of the group always preceed the needs of the individual. Our

traditions work!



susank



-------------------------



From: Roger Wheatley <rogerwheatley2004@yahoo.com>

Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:13pm



By the 1987 General Service Conference, it was recommended that an AA

"service piece" be made available which is now the "blue card." I have

a tape of the 12 Concepts given by a past trustee who served on that

conference (David A. from Texas) which tells the story that delegates

to that conference could not come to consensus and therefore the blue

card did not get conference approved. The compromise was to establish

a "service piece" that groups could use if they chose to.


0 -1 0 0
2446 ArtSheehan
RE: Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages Doctor''s Opinion and first 164 pages 5/29/2005 12:36:00 AM


Hi Diz and Jim B



Let’s do the good Dr Silkworth some justice here. He is credited with

treating over 40,000 alcoholics in his tenure at Towns and

Knickerbocker hospitals. Bill called him “the little Dr who loved

drunks” and “medical saint.” He also served as a Board Trustee and,

along with Dr Tiebout, helped get Bill the opportunity to address

medical associations and explain AA to them. There is a magnificent

biography of Dr Silkworth by Dale Mitchell.



In a 1953 Grapevine article Bill W credits Dr Silkworth as being one

of the three major influences that led to the formation of the 12

Steps (the other two were the Oxford Group and William James).



Dr Silkworth wrote a (July 27, 1938) letter of support for AA for use

in fundraising for the Big Book. The letter was incorporated into the

chapter “The Doctor’s Opinion” (re AA Comes of Age pg 168 for the high

degree of stature and respect that Bill extends to Dr Silkworth).



Dr Esther L Richards of Baltimore had suggested to Bill to get a

“Number one physician” in the alcoholism field to write an

introduction (re Not God pg 332).



The notion that renumbering the chapter “The Doctors Opinion” to roman

numerals somehow reduces its stature is very dubious. Why Bill

renumbered the pages in the Big Book in the 2nd edition is a mystery.

Nobody really knows but there is some wonderfully entertaining

speculation on the matter. But it’s just that, speculation.



Also a technicality - the term “first 164 pages” is used erroneously.

They are not the first 164 pages - they are the pages numbered 1 thru

164. The error consists of taking a series of cardinal numbers and

using them as ordinal numbers. The first page occurs immediately after

the front cover. Admittedly this is nit-picking but I think the term

“first 164 pages” gets used mindlessly in AA and has become something

of a stale mantra (but I don’t want to get off on a rant here - I’ll

save it for another day).l



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
2447 jacqueline belgium
Twelve Promises and the Big Book Twelve Promises and the Big Book 5/29/2005 5:20:00 AM


More and more, we see in meeting places printed documents with the title "Twelve

Promises" and more and more sharing are also made under the theme the "Twelve

Promises."



Could you please tell me if the title "Twelve Promises" is an official term as I

have no trace of such? If yes could you please give me the source and date.



Is the numbering of the "Twelve Promises" also an official presentation adapted

from the text in the Big Book ?



Was the intention of the writers of thoses promise to number them? Though the

coincidence is striking that the enumeration goes up, in a certain way, to

twelve tracks to happiness.



I ask you those questions as I have the feeling, more specially for the

newcomers, that there is a confusion and think that our AA Triangle has four

bases: Steps/Traditions/Concepts/Promises ! which leads to a possible

misunderstanding.



Thanks in advance for your reactions.

Jacqueline - Brussels - Belgium



_________________________________________________________________


0 -1 0 0
2448 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Open meetings and closed meetings Open meetings and closed meetings 5/30/2005 2:59:00 PM


MESSAGE 2445 REPOSTED to correct the formatting



---------------------------------------------



Hi Susan and Roger







The info below was posted to AAHL last July. I hope you find it useful for the

history that led up to the creation of the blue card and actions that have

occurred subsequent to it.







Some points of specifics: the correct name for the Conference is "General

Service" Conference not "AAWS" Conference. AA World Services (AAWS) is an

operating corporation that oversees the General Service Office (GSO) and

publishes AA books and pamphlets. The other operating corporation is the AA

Grapevine. These two entities constitute the publishing arms of AA (see the AA

Service Manual for a fuller explanation).







Meeting types







The precursor to "The AA Group" pamphlet was called "Partners in AA." It was the

first publication to define various meeting types. The types of meeting defined

then were "Closed," "Open" and "Public." Open and closed meetings were explained

in the pamphlet (along with what was called a "typical" format for the

meetings). Closed meetings were also explained to include "straight discussion

meetings," "Step meetings," Tradition meetings," "Panel meetings (Q&A type

meetings) and "Beginners meetings." "Public meetings" were oriented to providing

public information to the community and encouraged inviting members of the

professional community (e.g. physicians, clergy, law enforcement officials,

etc.) to acquaint them with the availability of AA in the community.







Service pieces







Items that are designated as "service pieces" (sometimes also called "service

items") do not necessarily escape Conference scrutiny nor do they lack

Conference approval (e.g. Box 459, the "yellow sheet" Guidelines and directories

are among the various service pieces). "Service pieces" are addressed only

briefly in the AA Service Manual to identify that GSO does publish items in

addition to Conference-approved literature.







The" blue card" was approved by the General Service Conference twice (1987 and

reaffirmed in 1988).







You can do a search in the group's message archives to access additional prior

postings on the subject matter.







------------------------------------



The "blue card" definitions of open and closed meetings are part of a series of

Conference advisory actions emphasizing AA's primary purpose. The "blue card" is

sometimes called the "primary purpose" card. It was first recommended by the

1986 Conference, adopted by the 1987 Conference and reaffirmed by the 1988

Conference.







Below, is a timeline history of Conference advisory actions related to AA's

primary purpose:







1968 It was recommended that: AA groups in correctional facilities and hospitals

adhere to AA's Fifth Tradition, on primary purpose of carrying the message to

the alcoholic. That anyone with problems other than alcohol be made welcome at

inside open meetings, but not participate in group activities.







1969 It was recommended that: Guidelines be prepared outlining procedures for AA

members to follow in working with institutions and ways of informing the

nonalcoholic staff about AA. The following committee recommendations are to be

included in the guidelines:







a. AAs attending meetings at prisons or hospitals should be selected

carefully so that relations with the institution's staff remain harmonious.







b. AA's position on membership in institutional groups be defined as

follows: We cannot give AA membership to nonalcoholic narcotic addicts and other

unrelated groups or organizations. AA groups in institutions can welcome anyone

with problems other than alcohol to inside open meetings, but it is suggested

that they do not speak or otherwise participate in these meetings.







1970 It was recommended that: The wording of the 1969 Institutions Committee

recommendation concerning the definition of AA's position on membership in

institutions groups be changed to read as follows:







Open meetings are traditionally open to all interested in AA, but should be

devoted exclusively to the alcoholic problem. Closed meetings should

traditionally be restricted to alcoholics.







1972 It was recommended that: The Conference reaffirm AA group policy that "Only

those with a desire to stop drinking may be members of AA groups; only AA

members are eligible to be officers of AA groups; nonalcoholics are welcome at

open meetings of AA." And, it is suggested that the word "family" not be used in

the name of an AA group; if AA's and their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet

together on a regular basis, they consider these gatherings "meetings" and not

AA groups. (Floor Action)







1985 It was recommended that: The following be inserted in the pamphlets "If You

Are a Professional" and "How AA Members Cooperate":







The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking. If the

person is not sure about this point, then he or she is most welcome to attend an

open AA meeting. If the person is sure that drinking is not his or her problem,

then he or she may wish to seek help elsewhere.







1986 It was recommended that: A service item for use at AA meetings regarding

AA's primary purpose be developed by the appropriate trustees' committee and

proposed to the appropriate Conference committee at the 1987 Conference.







1987 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding AA's primary

purpose be available as an AA service piece.







THIS IS A CLOSED MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS







This is a closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of AA's singleness

of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to persons who have a

desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a problem with alcohol, you are

welcome to attend this meeting. We ask that when discussing our problems, we

confine ourselves to those problems, as they relate to alcoholism.



The following statement regarding AA's primary purpose be available as an AA

service piece.







THIS IS AN OPEN MEETING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS







This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are all

here--especially newcomers. In keeping with our singleness of purpose and our

Third Tradition which states that "The only requirement for AA membership is a

desire to stop drinking," we ask that all who participate confine their

discussion to their problems with alcohol.







1988 It was recommended that: The Primary Purpose Card continue as a service

piece.







1990 It was recommended that: "The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the one-way

display and the poster be updated to reflect the findings from the 1989

Membership Survey.







"The AA Membership Survey" pamphlet, the one-way display and poster reflect all

the findings of the 1989 Membership Survey. The answer to Question #14 in the AA

survey pertaining to drugs should be presented as follows:







"In addition to their alcoholism X% of members indicated they were addicted to

drugs," and include the disclaimer "AA's primary purpose is recovery from

alcoholism."







1992 It was recommended that: The 1992 AA Membership Survey Questionnaire be

changed as follows:







a - Add item "f' to Question #3: "this is my first AA meeting."



b - Revise item "1" of Question #5 to read: "Newspaper, magazine, radio or TV."



c - Change Question #9 to read: "Do you belong to an AA Home Group?"



d - Revise item "a" of Question #10 to read: "Do you have a sponsor?"



e - Change item "b" of Question #10 to read: "Did you get a sponsor within 90

days of coming to AA?"







That Question #14, "In addition to your alcoholism, were you addicted to drugs?"

be removed from the



1992 AA Membership Survey Questionnaire because the question:







a - Emphasizes problems other than alcohol;



b - Has a tendency to lead to disunity;



c - Could be construed as conflicting with our primary purpose.







1997 It was recommended that: The following statement regarding Singleness of

Purpose be added to the C.P.C. pamphlets: "Alcoholics Anonymous in Your

Community," "AA and Employees Assistance Programs," "AA as a Resource for the

Health Care Professional," "How AA Members Cooperate With Professionals," "If

You Are a Professional," and "Members of the Clergy Ask About Alcoholics

Anonymous" under the title "Singleness of Purpose and Problems Other Than

Alcohol" at the next printing:







"Alcoholism and drug addiction are often referred to as 'substance abuse' or

'chemical dependency.' Alcoholics and nonalcoholics are, therefore, sometimes

introduced to AA and encouraged to attend AA meetings. Anyone may attend open AA

meetings. But only those with a drinking problem may attend closed meetings or

become AA members. People with problems other than alcoholism are eligible for

AA membership only if they have a drinking problem."







Cheers



Arthur





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Susan Krieger







Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:42 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Open meetings and closed meetings







The blue card was a conference action from the 1987 AAWS Conference. It

recommended that AA's primary purpose statement be available as a service piece.

One side would address closed meetings for alcoholics only and the other side

would be for open meeting. The establishment of open and closed meetings is a

much earlier policy. I believe that all meetings were closed and that open

meetings originally were a part of public information, and were speaker

meetings. The public was invited to hear the message of AA.



When I came into AA, it was explained that at open meetings anyone could attend

but only the Alcoholic could share his/her experience. The concern has always

been that many people with other problems other than alcohol have wanted to

become members of AA. The fifth tradition encourages our singleness of

purpose.The idea of supportive relatives is that they can attend open meetings

only. If a group wants their meeting to be closed that is the right of the group

concsience. The needs of the group always preceed the needs of the individual.

Our traditions work!



susank



-------------------------



From: Roger Wheatley <rogerwheatley2004@yahoo.com>

Date: Fri May 27, 2005 5:13pm



By the 1987 General Service Conference, it was recommended that an AA "service

piece" be made available which is now the "blue card." I have a tape of the 12

Concepts given by a past trustee who served on that conference (David A. from

Texas) which tells the story that delegates to that conference could not come to

consensus and therefore the blue card did not get conference approved. The

compromise was to establish a "service piece" that groups could use if they

chose to.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2449 Bill Lash
AA Founders'' Day Celebrations 2005 AA Founders'' Day Celebrations 2005 6/1/2005 5:06:00 PM


Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills NY

Lois Wilson Annual Picnic

Saturday, June 4

http://www.steppingstones.org





The Wilson House in East Dorset VT

Bill Wilson Day

Sunday, June 5

http://www.wilsonhouse.org





Akron OH

June 10 - 12

http://www.akronaa.org


0 -1 0 0
2450 and25g
Living Sober book Living Sober book 6/2/2005 8:27:00 AM


I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-approved books

AA has today which is "Living Sober." Recently, my home group has decided to

read and study this book once a month at our meeting. I find many suggestions in

this book which are sort of complete opposites of what our Big Book promises for

alcoholics. Things like not having alcohol in your house, avoiding people,

places, and things ....



I would like to find out more about how this book became approved by the

Fellowship, who are the authors... Any information is greatly appreciated.



Thank you!


0 -1 0 0
2451 Gotogo2002L@aol.com
William James & spiritual experience William James & spiritual experience 5/30/2005 4:53:00 PM


Hi All

Can someone share their knowledge of the late William James and his

writings on the terms spiritual experience and spiritual awakening?


0 -1 0 0
2452 Richard Johnson
Who you see here, what you hear here... Who you see here, what you hear here... 5/31/2005 1:19:00 AM


... let it stay here.



Where did this statment come from?? I can not find

it in any A.A. books or A.A. lititure??? Is it something we just kinda

adopted?? Thanks, Richard


0 -1 0 0
2453 ArtSheehan
RE: Twelve Promises and the Big Book Twelve Promises and the Big Book 5/30/2005 7:46:00 PM


***********************************************************

From (1) Arthur Sheehan, (2) Arkie Koehl, and (3) Jim Blair

***********************************************************



(1) From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Mon May 30, 2005



Hi Jacqueline



It helps greatly to develop a sense of humor and an awareness of (I

don’t know what else to call it) AA theater. Some things circulate in

AA which are solely the product of the imagination of individual

members. These folks often seem to have the uncanny aptitude of being

able to read things in the Big Book that aren’t written there.



First off, there is really no such thing as “The Promises.” The term

is a euphemism for 3 paragraphs of Big Book text on pages 83 and 84.

However, the term is so widely circulated in AA today, and is repeated

so often, it has become established. However, these things do come and

go - we are today thankfully rid of the infamous reference to “page

449” as the solution to every problem that could be conceived for and

by humanity (but it was a wonderful piece of AA theater).



The notion of the “Promises” adding up to 12 is also an invention of

imagination but not a very elegant one in its parsing. In order to

contrive 12 so called “Promises” one must leave out the 3rd paragraph.

Aside from giving the “Promises” their name, this paragraph is likely

the most significant paragraph in the series. However the paragraph

awkwardly and inconveniently contains two more “Promises.” It clearly

would not be good form, not to mention good theater, to have “The 14

Promises.”



The affinity for the number 12 began in December 1938 when Bill W

expanded the 6 Steps, then used as the program of recovery, into the

12 Steps we know today. In “AA Comes of Age” (pg 161). Bill wrote:



“Finally I started to write. I set out to draft more than six steps;

how many more I did not know. I relaxed and asked for guidance. With a

speed that was astonishing, considering my jangling emotions, I

completed the first draft. It took perhaps half an hour. The words

kept right on coming. When I reached a stopping point, I numbered the

new steps. They added up to twelve. Somehow this number seemed

significant. Without any special rhyme or reason I connected them with

the twelve apostles. Feeling greatly relieved now, I commenced to

reread the draft.”



This same wonderful man wrote what is today christened “The Promises.”

He elected to neither number them nor give them a name.



AA abandoned the circle and triangle logo years ago (we essentially

gave away their trademark and copyright by allowing vendors to put the

logo on chips and medallions). The Steps, Traditions and Concepts

constitute what are called the “Three Legacies.” While the triangle

was once used to symbolize the Three Legacies, it is no longer

included in Conference-approved literature and other material.



Cheers

Arthur



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



(2) From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com> Date: Mon May 30, 2005



Probably discussed here before, but I'm convinced there was some sort of

duodecimal fixation going on <g>. 12 Concepts of World Service, 12 Steps, 12

Traditions, 12 Promises. Plus other numbered arcana which are factors of the

number 12, e.g., 6 warrants, 3 legs of service, circle/triangle symbol. I'm sure

I missed some.

Perhaps this numerological fixation can be reduced to a single starting point:

the old Ballantine Ale "Three-Ring Sign"? Or expanded to the well-known saying:

"24 beers in a case; 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think NOT!" :-)



Arkie Koehl

Honolulu



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



(3) From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> Date: Mon May 30, 2005



Jacqueline wrote: "I ask you those questions as I have the feeling, more

specially for the newcomers, that there is a confusion and think that our AA

Triangle has four bases: Steps/Traditions/Concepts/Promises ! which leads to a

possible misunderstanding."



You are absolutely right. To take the "promises" on pages 83 and 84 out of the

book and present them as "The Twelve Promises" is to take them out of context.



There have been requests for a service piece on "The Twelve Promises" but it was

rejected on this basis.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
2454 Tony Wade
Plays, skits Plays, skits 6/1/2005 1:02:00 PM


Hi,



My new website is now up and running. It's called

<http://www.recoveryskits.com/> and they are all free. I have one called "The

Time Machine" about Bill and Dr. Bob being brought to 2005 which I'm going to

add soon. Thanks!



Tony


0 -1 0 0
2455 David Grant
Wilson House Founders'' Day Celebration 2005 Wilson House Founders'' Day Celebration 2005 6/2/2005 9:16:00 PM


The schedule at the Wilson House remains unchanged this year.



There is a graveside service at 1:00PM.



At 2:00 PM, a speaker meeting takes place on the Griffith House lawn

directly adjacent to the Wilson House.



There is a cookout that starts after the speaker, usually around 3:30PM with

a suggested donation of around $5.00.



Each year, speakers are chosen who have had a past personal relationship

with Bill. As time passes, every year finds the speakers a tad older.



One piece for the graveside service involves the placing of a pot of

geraniums on Bill's grave. A couple years back, a newcomer, barely a week

sober had the honor. Stepping wide eyed in front of a hundred or more

folks, his hands shaking, he laid the geraniums on Bills grave, then stepped

back quickly into the crowd. It was an amazing sight and so truly apropos

for the day.



This year it may actually be sunny in E. Dorset!



In Service,



David G.







----- Original Message -----

From: "Bill Lash" <barefootbill@optonline.net>



> Stepping Stones in Bedford Hills NY

> Lois Wilson Annual Picnic

> Saturday, June 4

> http://www.steppingstones.org

>

>

> The Wilson House in East Dorset VT

> Bill Wilson Day

> Sunday, June 5

> http://www.wilsonhouse.org

>

>

> Akron OH

> June 10 - 12

> http://www.akronaa.org


0 -1 0 0
2456 Bob Barnes
Re: Who you see here, what you hear here... Who you see here, what you hear here... 6/2/2005 10:23:00 PM


"Who you see here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here."



This belongs to Alanon. AA just started using it. It was also used in 1944 in

Wendover Utah by the 509th Bomb Group when Paul Tibbetts was training the 509th

for their mission of delivering the A-Bombs to Japan. Hiroshima and Nagasaki.



Bob Barnes



---------------------------------



From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> Date: Thu Jun 2, 2005 9:15pm



Where did this statement come from??



Al-Anon. It is printed on a blue and white folding card and is conference

approved (by Al-Anon).



Jim


0 -1 0 0
2457 Jim Blair
Re: Living Sober book Living Sober book 6/2/2005 9:26:00 PM


I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-approved

books AA has today which is "Living Sober."



Excerpt from AA World History (unpublished manuscript)



"Living Sober," the other booklet, published in 1975, had a more tortuous

history. Around 1968, there were discussions by the Board of the need for a

pamphlet for sober old-timers, and the need to point out "traps" or "danger

signals." Members of the Literature Committee and others were asked to

submit their ideas. Out of this grew a specific proposal for a piece of

literature to be developed around the topic, "How We Stay Sober." It was in

outline form by October 1969, and was assigned to a professional writer on

the staff of a prestigious national magazine. After nearly two years of

work, he submitted a complete draft.. Which everyone agreed would not do at

all. They felt it needed such drastic revision that it should be started

again from scratch by a new author. Barry L., a seasoned, skillful freelance

writer/consultant for G.S.O. was given the task. With Bob H., general

manager of G.S.O., he negotiated a flat fee for the project. After four and

a half years of organizing material and writing . and probably some

procrastinating, as well, Barry came up with a simple, intensely practical,

charmingly written manual on how to enjoy a happy, productive life without

drinking. It was not spiritual and contained nothing about getting sober;

but it was chock-full of the kind of advice and suggestions a newcomer might

get from a super-sponsor. ("A.A.'s First Aid Kit" was Bayard's name for it.)

And it was written in a style unlike any other A.A. literature: breezy,

impertinent, colloquial and informal. "Living Sober" proved to be hugely

popular, and after it had sold nearly a million copies, Barry L. felt he

should have been compensated more generously and should receive some sort of

royalty. He sent a letter to all past Trustees and G.S.O. staff members with

whom he was acquainted, to advance his claim. The AAWS Board and the General

Service Board considered his case, but declined to take action. He then

threatened legal recourse, but perhaps realizing the weakness of his case,

never followed through.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
2458 Gallery
I am responsible I am responsible 6/2/2005 11:54:00 PM


Here's a good question for this group.

There's been some discussion in my home group about the context of the; "I

am responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help..." text. My

sponsor found the quote in Pass It On, on page 181. Do any of you have the

Responsibility Declaration from the International Convention 1965 that it

mentions or know where I can find it? I'd like to read more of the context

around this statement. Just from the brief story presented in Pass It On, it

seems that it's referring to the movement of the fellowship across the

globe.

My question revolves around the idea that it's often taken out of context

and causes a blur in our singleness of purpose.

Any thoughts would be also be appreciated. Thanks.



Rotax Steve

Nangi namaj perez


0 -1 0 0
2459 ArtSheehan
RE: Jim S. Son Of A Country Physician pg 232 4th Edition Jim S. Son Of A Country Physician pg 232 4th Edition 5/30/2005 5:19:00 PM


Hi Carl

-

Jim Scott , MD, a black physician (Big Book story “Jim’s story”)

spoke at the 1955 “coming of age” convention in Cleveland, OH (re “AA

Comes of Age” pg 37). You won’t find his name in the index of “AA

Comes of Age” (this also true of quite a few other names in the book).

“Jim’s Story” first appeared in the 2nd edition and has been carried

thru to the 4th edition.

-

Dr Jim resided in the Washington DC area. In “Jim's Story” it cites

that his main assistance came from Charlie G (his sponsor - a

Caucasian) and Ella G (a black woman) who introduced Jim to his

sponsor. Dr Jim sobered up in 1943.

-

“Jim's Story” and “AA Comes of Age” credit him with starting the 1st

black group but I don't believe that is factual (he started the first

black group in Washington DC but not the US). I’ve also heard of him

being referred to as “the black Dr Bob.” He reputedly was a prolific

12th-Stepper and used his home as a halfway house and hospital. His

wife, Viola, is likened to Anne Smith for her tireless assistance to

him.

-

The paragraph below is from the November 1980 Grapevine:

-

The first interracial group in the New York area started in the late

1940's. It was a slow process. There was a black group in Washington,

D.C., which was then segregated. Its founder, Jim S.(whose story is in

the Big Book), his wife Viola, and other members of the group used to

come to New York on weekends to help us. They were simply wonderful.

The black men and women in this area usually would show up at our

downtown meetings, one at a time, and never come back. We tried to

make one of the Greenwich Village meetings into an interracial group,

and that didn't work.

-

Dr Jim is sometimes confused with another Jim Scott from Akron, OH who

edited the stories for the 1st edition Big Book (the Akron, OH Jim

Scott’s Big Book Story was first titled “The News Hawk” and later

changed to “Traveler, Editor, Author”). His sober date is July 1937.

-

Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
2460 john pizzamiglio
Akron pamphlet and Upper Room Akron pamphlet and Upper Room 5/30/2005 4:05:00 PM


Akron pamphlet from 1940/41:



I read a pamphlet written (I think) by Dr. Bob. In it there is made mention of

reading The Upper Room. Anyone have info on what this is? I would appreciate

any responses.



Thanks, Pizza

---------------------------------

Hi,



I don't think that any AA historians believe that Dr. Bob wrote that little

Akron pamphlet himself, but it clearly must have had his approval, and Sister

Ignatia's approval as well, because of the way it was used. So it gives us a

good look at early Akron AA at the beginning of the 1940s, right after the Big

Book was published, and the kinds of approach to the program that Dr. Bob and

Sister Ignatia were encouraging.



The Upper Room was a series of little paperback booklets, with a meditation for

each day. The old southern Methodist church began publishing them in 1935, the

same year that AA began, in Nashville, Tennessee. They are still being

published today.



From 1935 to 1948, The Upper Room was read every morning by more AAs than any

other meditational work. Although the Oxford Group had the greatest influence on

the development of early A.A. at the very beginning, The Upper Room was clearly

the second greatest influence on early A.A. spirituality. You can see the

effect of ideas drawn from The Upper Room throughout the first 164 pages of the

Big Book.



For a quick look at the kinds of things the Upper Room talked about, see

<http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html>, which gives selections from the readings in

some of the issues of The Upper Room published in 1938 and 1939, along with

commentary explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew from this source: an

important part of their understanding of what was meant by character and

character defects, the emphasis on happiness as an inside job, the idea of the

Divine Light within, and warnings against being too imprisoned by doctrines,

dogmas and church creeds. Also the dangers of resentment, instructions about

how to pray, entering the Divine Silence, learning to listen to God, opening the

shutters of my mind to let in the Sunlight of the Spirit, taking life One Day at

a Time, and above all, remembering that God is present with me at all times:

"Nearer is he than breathing, closer than hands or feet."



I'm glad you asked about it, because I wish that someone would come out with

something -- either in the form of a book, or something online -- which would

enable present day AA members to look at copies of The Upper Room from that

early period. It would help people to better understand the nature of AA

spirituality and its roots.



Glenn Chesnut


0 -1 0 0
2461 Bristol Fashion
Re: Who you see here, what you hear here... Who you see here, what you hear here... 6/3/2005 5:03:00 AM


In reply to Richard..... this statement is printed on yellow cards over here.

It is recently become part of the list of literature and can be obtained from

our General Service Office in York. As the statement did not originate in

Alcoholics Anonymous, some people find this fact offensive. My dear late

sponsor, who was from an older generation, told us that this statement was

pinned up on the walls of the atomic bomb laboratories after the War. He hated

to see this statement on the table at A.A. meetings because if taken literally

it meant that we should not carry the message outside the meeting and that it

encouraged secrecy and shame, and helped perpetuate any stigma of alcoholism

within our own Fellowship. What it really means to say is: DON'T GOSSIP !



If a reminder about this simply has to appear at a meeting then the

'Anonymity Statement' coming out of the Office in New York since 1993 is, to my

mind, preferable. It goes like this: "Anonymity is the spiritual foundation

of all our Traditions. Please respect this and treat in confidence who you see

and what you hear."



Yours

Editors


0 -1 0 0
2462 Jon Markle
RE: Living Sober book Living Sober book 6/3/2005 7:56:00 AM


In my home group where I got sober, we used this book for newcomers and

included the discussions from it for our Beginners Meeting.



My understanding for discussions, it is most often used, if not intended

for, beginners in sobriety. Although, contrary to your observations, when

studied in context with the Big Book I find no such conflicts as you

suggest. And highly recommend that the literature is relevant even for us

"long-timers".



The passage/apparent "opposite" is not in conflict, if you follow the

context from the Big Book to which you refer.



Others here can speak more directly and factually, especially as to the

authorship . . . I do know a couple of things, but not first hand.



Jon (Raleigh)

9/9/82



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of and25g

Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:28 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Living Sober book



I have a question about the history behind one of the conference-approved

books AA has today which is "Living Sober." Recently, my home group has

decided to read and study this book once a month at our meeting. I find many

suggestions in this book which are sort of complete opposites of what our

Big Book promises for alcoholics. Things like not having alcohol in your

house, avoiding people, places, and things ....



I would like to find out more about how this book became approved by the

Fellowship, who are the authors... Any information is greatly appreciated.



Thank you!



















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
2463 Glenn Chesnut
Guidelines for posting messages Guidelines for posting messages 6/11/2005 12:04:00 PM


Hi everybody,



Since we are continually adding new members (we now have 1305 members in this

group, coming from all over the globe) it is occasionally useful to repeat some

of the basic guidelines for posting messages. As Nancy Olson wrote them out for

us:



1. We are not an AA group: the list is open to anyone interested in A.A. history

whether AA members or not.



2. We are not a chat room: please do not use the list to comment on other

people's posts. Comment on the post ONLY if your message has additional history

on the subject.



3. Personal opinions are to be avoided: no personal opinions, or posts based

just on rumor or vague memory of what someone told you will be posted. To the

extent possible please list the sources for any information you send.



4. Not every message sent in will be posted. Part of what makes the group so

enjoyable is that the moderator uses some selectivity before posting anything.



ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT (added by the present moderator):



5. It is very difficult, given the Yahoo group system, for the moderator to

forward a message from one member to another. We just get too many messages for

the present moderator -- who already tends to get overwhelmed by the sheer

number of messages sent in (!!!) -- to copy your message onto Notepad, look up

the other member's address, and then paste and send your message in an Email

addressed to him or her.



(a) So if you want to send an Email about one of the messages to the member who

posted that message, go to



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages



Each message gives the Email address of the person who posted it, so you can use

that address and Email that person directly.



(b) If and only if you want to post a message for the entire group to read, send

it to



AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com



THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME ON THIS LAST ITEM.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend IN), Moderator







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
2464 ArtSheehan
First 100 Members Revisited - Myth vs. Fact First 100 Members Revisited - Myth vs. Fact 6/11/2005 11:01:00 AM


This posting is an appeal to exercise care that AAHistoryLovers not be

a vehicle for the propagation of myth (please see the edited messages

below). A very durable myth within AA today is the assertion that many

early