tblYgr_AAHistoryLovers
YahooMessageID From FromEmail Subject SubjectSrt RecDate Message AttCount NewMsgFlag DelMsgFlag FavMsgFlag
2118 ogzigensenza1
Chuck and Lee? Chuck and Lee? 1/4/2005 5:37:00 AM

I'm curious. Are the Chuck and Lee in "A.A. Comes of Age"/Los
Angeles A.A., Chuck and Elsa C.?

0 -1 0 0
2119 hjfree2001
Jim''s Stroy Jim''s Stroy 1/14/2005 12:39:00 PM

In the Big Book Pioneer's Section, Jim's Story,

Ella G. introduces Jim to Charlie G., who brought Jim to AA and
became his sponsor. There is a lot about couple recovery in the
story (Vi & Jim where often the only attendees at the early
meetings, Vi's patience with Jim etc.)

Are Ella & Charlie also partners ergo the common "G" ? ? ? ?

blessed2bsober
rob

0 -1 0 0
2120 Bill Corcoran
Thank you and question on Big Book royalties Thank you and question on Big Book royalties 1/16/2005 12:24:00 PM

Hello,

First of all, it is a pleasure to be a recent addition to the
membership of this group. I spent nearly a day reading through the
message archives and found it fascinating.
I do have a question that I hope someone can answer. I was at an
AA meeting recently and before the meeting, a rather pompous
individual was loudly voicing his opinions about AA history. He
mentioned that Bill W. had "stiffed" Dr. Bob for his share of the
royalties. Some of the old posts I read on this board seemed to
indicate otherwise, but I wanted to know if this person was off base
as I suspect he was. Any takers?

Thanks,

Bill O'C.
Middletown, RI

0 -1 0 0
2121 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Thank you and question on Big Book royalties Thank you and question on Big Book royalties 1/16/2005 10:13:00 PM

Hi Bill

The basis for the specific matter you inquire about derives from an August 1941
letter from Bill W to Dr Bob. Bill asked Dr Bob if he could take $500 from
accumulated Big Book royalties.

There is a web site community that propagates revisionist screeds about Bill W
(among others). Something as plain as I described previously, has been
convoluted by them into portraying Bill as out to pull one over on Dr Bob.

How someone writing a letter, asking permission to take funds, could be
portrayed as trying to "stiff" his closest associate is beyond my imagination
(but apparently not beyond the conspiratorial imagination of others). I suspect
the web site provided the origin of the negative opinion formed by the person
you mention.

Unfortunately, the topic is not related to history, it really involves
mean-spirited slander. Sadly, there seems to be an ever-growing increase in the
number of people who try to make themselves look good solely through the
mechanism of trying to make someone else look bad.

Arthur

PS - if you want more info let me know through direct email to the "from"
address above.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Corcoran<mailto:WCOC121558@aol.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Thank you and question on Big Book royalties



Hello,

First of all, it is a pleasure to be a recent addition to the
membership of this group. I spent nearly a day reading through the
message archives and found it fascinating.
I do have a question that I hope someone can answer. I was at an
AA meeting recently and before the meeting, a rather pompous
individual was loudly voicing his opinions about AA history. He
mentioned that Bill W. had "stiffed" Dr. Bob for his share of the
royalties. Some of the old posts I read on this board seemed to
indicate otherwise, but I wanted to know if this person was off base
as I suspect he was. Any takers?

Thanks,

Bill O'C.
Middletown, RI





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2122 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Jim''s Stroy Jim''s Stroy 1/16/2005 10:33:00 PM

Hi Rob

Dr Jim mentions initially having meetings at Ella G's home as "... the first
meeting of a colored group in AA ..." Dr Jim does not identify the location as
"Ella and Charlie's" home but only as "Ella G's."

In the story (pg 244 in the 4th edition Big Book) it infers that Ella G was
black and explicitly states that Charlie G was white. My interpretation is that
Ella and Charlie were very close friends through the fellowship and common bond
of AA.

The racial intolerance that existed at the time (which is very well documented
in "Pass It On") I believe would have precluded them from being husband and wife
and their difference in race would preclude them from being siblings.

In early AA, it was supposed to be fairly common for alcoholics and spouses to
attend meetings together. Afterwards, the alcoholics would gather privately into
a "closed" meeting of alcoholics only. When AA was under the umbrella of the
Oxford Group, other non-alcoholic Oxford Group members could (and did) attend
the "open" portion of the meetings as well.

Cheers
Arthur
----- Original Message -----
From: hjfree2001<mailto:hjfree@fuse.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:39 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's Stroy



In the Big Book Pioneer's Section, Jim's Story,

Ella G. introduces Jim to Charlie G., who brought Jim to AA and
became his sponsor. There is a lot about couple recovery in the
story (Vi & Jim where often the only attendees at the early
meetings, Vi's patience with Jim etc.)

Are Ella & Charlie also partners ergo the common "G" ? ? ? ?

blessed2bsober
rob







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istoryLovers/
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0 -1 0 0
2123 Rwj
Big Book Royalties Big Book Royalties 1/17/2005 1:41:00 PM

Thanks for this information. I heard (also years ago
-- and I think it was from Barry who spoke at the
first Big D Roundup) that an early NYC member helped
write portions of the original Big Book -- but quit
the fellowship over an argument with Bill about who
owned the copyright and would get the royalties.

Can you shed light on this?

Rocky



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Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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0 -1 0 0
2124 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Big Book Royalties Big Book Royalties 1/17/2005 4:19:00 PM

Hi Rocky

It was Hank Parkhurst. He was very instrumental in getting the Big Book
published and is also credited with writing chapter 10 "To Employers." Hank got
drunk after 4 years sobriety and harbored many resentments against Bill. He
married a sister of Clarence Snyder who founded AA in Cleveland. Clarence was a
thorn in Bill's side for decades.

in 1940 or 1941 Clarence S accused Bill of ripping off money from sales of the
Big Book. He tried to set up Bill by calling a special meeting in Cleveland and
asking Bill and Dr Bob to attend. The meeting was going to be used to accuse
Bill of many negative rumors that were circulating. Bill got wind of the true
purpose of the meeting and had a CPA audit the books and provide a finance
statement. Bill showed the audit report at the Cleveland meeting and all but
Clarence apologized to him.

If you are looking for this kind of detailed info you can find a bunch of it in
a timeline document I periodically distribute. You can download a copy from
oso-aa.org/library/pafiledb.php or silkworth.net/aahistory/general.html

The copies are a "public" version (member last names are reduced to last
initial). Silkworth.net has the material in html, PDF or Word format. I'll be
issuing an updated/corrected and expanded version in a few months or so. I'll
post a message on AAHistoryLovers when it is ready for distribution. Anyone who
replies to the message gets a copy.

Cheers
Arthur
----- Original Message -----
From: Rwj<mailto:rwj426@yahoo.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:41 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Royalties


Thanks for this information. I heard (also years ago
-- and I think it was from Barry who spoke at the
first Big D Roundup) that an early NYC member helped
write portions of the original Big Book -- but quit
the fellowship over an argument with Bill about who
owned the copyright and would get the royalties.

Can you shed light on this?

Rocky



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com<http://my.yahoo.com/>




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0 -1 0 0
2125 Jim
Big Book Editions Big Book Editions 1/20/2005 12:45:00 PM

What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California

0 -1 0 0
2126 Peter Tippett
A man of thirty was doing a great deal of spree drinking. A man of thirty was doing a great deal of spree drinking. 1/20/2005 4:12:00 PM

Do we have any idea who he was?
Curiously,
Pete


=====
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time."



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0 -1 0 0
2127 Richard Johnson
Introduction Introduction 1/21/2005 12:00:00 PM

When,how where did we start saying "hello my name is somebody,I;m a
alocoholic...???

0 -1 0 0
2128 ArtSheehan
RE: Big Book Editions Big Book Editions 1/21/2005 12:30:00 AM

Hi Jim

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much "protected" from radical
change by the prevailing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole. It has
also been reinforced (particularly in regard to the 4th edition) by
Conference advisory actions. However, changes to the Big Book can be
accomplished by Conference advisory action. I doubt that they would get too
far in reality if they were anything beyond very minor.

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164.
"The Doctors Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story" became page 1 in
the 2nd edition. Nobody really knows why Bill W renumbered the Forewords and
"The Doctors Opinion" to Roman numerals but there is much creative
speculation.

Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps the late 1940's) Bill W
sensed that the Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic text. In his
presentation to the 1955 General Service Conference, he was careful to
inform them that the main objective of the 2nd edition was to change the
personal stories to better reflect the makeup of the membership. His report
stated: "Not an iota" of the first part of the text dealing with recovery
principles had been changed. The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd
edition states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1 to page 165 [sic],
remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should stand
as first written."

The Foreword to the 3rd edition reinforces this with the statement "Because
this book has become the basic text for our Society and has helped such
large numbers of alcoholic men and women to recovery, there exists a
sentiment against any radical changes being made to it. Therefore, the first
portion of this volume, describing the AA recovery program, has been left
untouched in the course of revisions made for both the second and third
editions."

There have been many wording changes over the years to the basic text
(including two changes to Step 12):

1. The wording of Step 12 changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual
awakening" and "as a result of these steps" was changed to "as a result of
those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Father Ed
Dowling expressed his dissatisfaction with the change in his address to the
1955 International Conference (see "AA Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of
Step 12 was changed back to "these steps" in the 2nd printing of the 2nd
edition.

2. In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term "ex-alcoholic"
was replaced by the terms "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."

3. In places that express values, terms have been updated to express
growth (e.g. "scores" was changed to "hundreds" then changed to "thousands"
etc). Also, foot notes were added.

Several web sites have tables that detail the changes from edition to
edition.

Several Conference advisory actions related to the 4th edition specified
that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text, appendices and
"Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain as is." This pretty much
represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA membership that emerged with 2nd
edition (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare."
It appeared that the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-responsive to
the Conference's advisory actions that the story "remain as is." It was
likely an honest mistake since there were so many Conference advisory
actions on the matter. In two advisory actions, the Conference authorized
making punctuation changes if they were done to correct errors. On the other
hand "remain as is" means "remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the
changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a floor action to restore the
original punctuation.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Jim [mailto:khanti1008@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:45 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions


What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?





Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California



_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2129 Jay Lawyer
Re: Big Book Editions (ex-problem....) Big Book Editions (ex-problem....) 1/21/2005 4:02:00 PM

Hi Art,
Thanks for your response to Jim. Now I have a question for you. I have inquired
why the change to "ex-problem" drinker in the 11th printing of 1st Edition from
"Ex-Alcoholic", but no replies. Do you have any kind of explaination for this
change? Also if so could you provide any kind of reason for this action?
Thanks

Jay


----- Original Message -----
From: ArtSheehan
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions


Hi Jim

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much "protected" from radical
change by the prevailing sentiment of the AA Fellowship as a whole. It has
also been reinforced (particularly in regard to the 4th edition) by
Conference advisory actions. However, changes to the Big Book can be
accomplished by Conference advisory action. I doubt that they would get too
far in reality if they were anything beyond very minor.

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was 1 to 179 not 1 to 164.
"The Doctors Opinion" was originally page 1. "Bill's Story" became page 1 in
the 2nd edition. Nobody really knows why Bill W renumbered the Forewords and
"The Doctors Opinion" to Roman numerals but there is much creative
speculation.

Prior to publication of the 2nd edition (perhaps the late 1940's) Bill W
sensed that the Fellowship was resistant to changing the basic text. In his
presentation to the 1955 General Service Conference, he was careful to
inform them that the main objective of the 2nd edition was to change the
personal stories to better reflect the makeup of the membership. His report
stated: "Not an iota" of the first part of the text dealing with recovery
principles had been changed. The inside of the dust jacket of the 2nd
edition states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1 to page 165 [sic],
remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of most AAs, this should stand
as first written."

The Foreword to the 3rd edition reinforces this with the statement "Because
this book has become the basic text for our Society and has helped such
large numbers of alcoholic men and women to recovery, there exists a
sentiment against any radical changes being made to it. Therefore, the first
portion of this volume, describing the AA recovery program, has been left
untouched in the course of revisions made for both the second and third
editions."

There have been many wording changes over the years to the basic text
(including two changes to Step 12):

1. The wording of Step 12 changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual
awakening" and "as a result of these steps" was changed to "as a result of
those steps." Appendix II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Father Ed
Dowling expressed his dissatisfaction with the change in his address to the
1955 International Conference (see "AA Comes of Age" pg 256). The wording of
Step 12 was changed back to "these steps" in the 2nd printing of the 2nd
edition.

2. In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term "ex-alcoholic"
was replaced by the terms "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."

3. In places that express values, terms have been updated to express
growth (e.g. "scores" was changed to "hundreds" then changed to "thousands"
etc). Also, foot notes were added.

Several web sites have tables that detail the changes from edition to
edition.

Several Conference advisory actions related to the 4th edition specified
that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text, appendices and
"Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain as is." This pretty much
represents the ongoing sentiment of the AA membership that emerged with 2nd
edition (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare."
It appeared that the Trustee's Literature Committee was non-responsive to
the Conference's advisory actions that the story "remain as is." It was
likely an honest mistake since there were so many Conference advisory
actions on the matter. In two advisory actions, the Conference authorized
making punctuation changes if they were done to correct errors. On the other
hand "remain as is" means "remain as is." The 2003 Conference let the
changes stand. The 2004 Conference passed a floor action to restore the
original punctuation.

Cheers

Arthur


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2130 Roy Tellis
Re: How did the "I''M AN ALCOHOLIC, MY NAME IS ________" Custom Start? How did the "I''M AN ALCOHOLIC, MY NAME IS ________" Custom Start? 1/22/2005 11:35:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Johnson"
<hotshots@e...> wrote:
>
> When,how where did we start saying "hello my name is somebody,I;m
a
> alocoholic...???
-------------------------------------------
from Box 459, date/issue unknown, copied from "The Messenger", June
2001 :

"I'M AN ALCOHOLIC, MY NAME IS ________"

How Did The "I'm An Alcoholic" Custom Start?

Who was the first to start a meeting or a qualification with the
statement, "I'm an alcoholic"? How did the worldwide custom begin?

As late co-founder Bill W. used to observe: "Nobody invented AA.
It just grew." And so probably did its classic introduction at
meetings.

"Many members ask these questions." says G.S.O. archivist, Frank
M. "Unfortunately, only a few earlytimers are left, and not many of
them are able to produce plausible theories. So we can only
speculate."

According to an early friend of AA, the late Henrietta Seiberling,
the expression dates back to meetings of AA's forerunner, The Oxford
Group Movement, which had it's heyday in the early 1930's. Mrs.
Seiberling, a non-alcoholic who had sought spiritual help in the
Oxford Group meetings, introduced Bill to AA's other founder, Dr.
Bob, then struggling to get sober in the Oxford Group.

At small meetings, the members knew one another and didn't need to
identify themselves. But in the large "public" meetings, there
was "witnessing," along the lines of an AA talk today, so personal
identification became necessary. Chances are that someone at
sometime said, "I'm an alcoholic" but, Mrs. Seiberling wasn't sure.
Nor did she remember that the phrase was used at early AA meetings
in Akron, before publication of the Big Book. In fact, she said the
word "alcoholic" was rarely uttered, at least in Akron. People
referred to themselves as "drunks" or "rum hounds" or "boozers" or
other epithets reminiscent of the Temperance Movement that gained
adherents during prohibition.

An early New York AA first heard expression as "I'm an alcoholic and
my name is...". According to his recollection, that was after World
War II, in 1945 or 1946. And it is a matter of record that, in
1947, a documentary film, "I'm an alcoholic" was produced by RKO.
From there on, as Bill might say, the custom "just grew."

from Box 459, date/issue unknown, copied from "The Messenger", June
2001

Roy T.
Baldwin, NY

0 -1 0 0
2131 Roy Tellis
Re: Author of "Life Saving Words" - BB 3rd Ed. Author of "Life Saving Words" - BB 3rd Ed. 1/22/2005 12:05:00 PM

Dear Nancy,
My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in Bombay India
in April 1990. I was going through the brief biograpies of the
authors ot the stories and I notices that you did not have the name
or accurate sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words" from
the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends involved in service in
India and am forwarding you some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA
Manual (Historical section):

HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots started a
meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but it did not survive the
war. Till 1957 a few individuals attempted sobriety through direct
correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early 1957, a
Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to the Candian Embassy at
New Delhi. Prior to his coming to India, Charley wrote to our co-
founder, Bill W. informing that he was being sent to New Delhi
and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A. activities, and if
there are any contacts there, that I can get in touch with, I would
surely welcome the opportunity". The reply from General Service
Office, N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti M.
to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence indicates that Charley
M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th January 1957 and was able to locate
Sylvia and Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place
advertisements in local newspapers offering help to those with a
drinking problem. It was through one of these "ads" that Lieutenant
Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment of the Indian Army had the
opportunity to come in contact with Charley M. From his response,
Trevor K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his death on
31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K. appears in the BIG BOOK
entitled - "Life-saving words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had
the good fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M., who
suggested that he register as a "loner" due to his army postings.
Trevor's service postings took him to new places in India and he
became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in India sowing the
seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore, Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,
Calcutta and other cities.

in fellowship
Roy T.
Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India

0 -1 0 0
2132 Ernest Kurtz
Conference of possible interest to some Conference of possible interest to some 1/22/2005 3:39:00 PM

Hi,

Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,
though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to some of
us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA supporters
will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who can
verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my biography,
but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging ditches
today.

For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan. 9th. She
worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest. We
will miss her.

ernie kurtz

MARCH 10-12, 2005
SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY

www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm

Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and alcohol
problems. However, until recently little scientific research has
explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be related or
ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the latest
research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality and
addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological and
clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three full
day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address
responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.

Keynote Speakers:
· Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research Center,
University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of
Addictive Behaviors"
· Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology at the
Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of Addiction and
Recovery"

Other Presenters:
· Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California - Berkeley: "The Good,
the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"
· Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Explaining the
Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
· Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's God Got to
Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among African
American Youth"
· Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-Month
Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
· Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating
Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
· Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The Spiritual
Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis in
Addiction Research"

Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
· Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan Marlatt &
Jean Kristeller)
· Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley & Kathy Goggin)

Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
· Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and Addiction (Tom
Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
(Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop may do
so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the workshop)

The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health Education
1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the
three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and includes
continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend only
one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee, continental
breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available for
psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors (see
the conference web-site for details). For more information about the
conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-2449.

To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.

0 -1 0 0
2134 cometkazie1@cox.net>
Re: Re: Conference of possible interest to some Conference of possible interest to some 1/23/2005 10:34:00 AM

>
> From: "Tom P." <tomper99@yahoo.com>
> Date: 2005/01/22 Sat PM 11:01:54 EST
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info Ernie.
> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
> alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and
> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know
> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does
> not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the
> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
> Tom P.
>

Are there any references that go into the specific differences between the
metabolism in non-alcoholics and alcoholics? As a chemist I have been intrigued
but haven't been able to uncover anything specific for over a decade.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
2135 ArtSheehan
RE: Re: Conference of possible interest to some Conference of possible interest to some 1/23/2005 4:42:00 PM

Hi

I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an
academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical
perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.

For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there will
be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually
dishonest).

I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a
non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work
with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can
be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly
when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own
contrarian theories.

Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the
debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He asserts
that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide
somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's
founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months
later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken
months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.

I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one
disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets
are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our
Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns
Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee
and telling Bill to go start a meeting.

We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard
to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"
something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist
doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating illness
and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental
illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the
clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of
spiritual living.

Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta Sieberling,
T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,
Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs and
Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having
experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that
alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the
afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some




Thanks for the info Ernie.
I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and
the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know
people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does
not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the
alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
Tom P.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@u...>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
> others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,
> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to
some of
> us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA
supporters
> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who
can
> verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my
biography,
> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging
ditches
> today.
>
> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.
9th. She
> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.
We
> will miss her.
>
> ernie kurtz
>
> MARCH 10-12, 2005
> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
> PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY
>
> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm
>
> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and
alcohol
> problems. However, until recently little scientific research has
> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be
related or
> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
> prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the
latest
> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality
and
> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological
and
> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three
full
> day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address
> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.
>
> Keynote Speakers:
> . Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research
Center,
> University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment
of
> Addictive Behaviors"
> . Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology
at the
> Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of
Addiction and
> Recovery"
>
> Other Presenters:
> . Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -
Berkeley: "The Good,
> the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"
> . Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State
University: "Explaining the
> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
> . Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's
God Got to
> Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among
African
> American Youth"
> . Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-
Month
> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
> . Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating
> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
> . Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The
Spiritual
> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
> Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis
in
> Addiction Research"
>
> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
> . Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan
Marlatt &
> Jean Kristeller)
> . Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &
Kathy Goggin)
>
> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
> . Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and
Addiction (Tom
> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop
may do
> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the
workshop)
>
> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health
Education
> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the
> three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and
includes
> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
> reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend
only
> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,
continental
> breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available
for
> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors
(see
> the conference web-site for details). For more information about
the
> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-
2449.
>
> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.






_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2136 Mel Barger
Re: Re: Conference of possible interest to some Conference of possible interest to some 1/23/2005 5:07:00 PM

Hi,
I appreciate Arthur's observations here. I have occasionally pulled up
Stanton Peele's website in the hope of finding him saying something good
about AA, but he rarely does.
I do think being an alcoholic gives us a good understanding of the nature
of compulsion. I am not a compulsive gambler, for example, but in knowing
how the first drink affected me, I can well understand how some gamblers can
be swept into insane, irrational behavior after experiencing or expecting a
win.
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 4:42 PM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some


>
> Hi
>
> I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an
> academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical
> perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.
>
> For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there
> will
> be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually
> dishonest).
>
> I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a
> non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work
> with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can
> be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly
> when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own
> contrarian theories.
>
> Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the
> debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He
> asserts
> that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide
> somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's
> founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months
> later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken
> months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.
>
> I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one
> disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets
> are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our
> Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns
> Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee
> and telling Bill to go start a meeting.
>
> We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard
> to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"
> something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist
> doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating
> illness
> and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental
> illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the
> clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of
> spiritual living.
>
> Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta
> Sieberling,
> T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,
> Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs
> and
> Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having
> experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that
> alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the
> afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
> _____
>
> From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info Ernie.
> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
> alcoholism unless he has experienced it. I have experienced it and
> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do. As we all know
> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving. Attitude does
> not cause this craving. It is chemical and the inability of the
> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
> Tom P.
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@u...>
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
>> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
>> others' awareness if pretty pitiful. I know some of these people,
>> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to
> some of
>> us. Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA
> supporters
>> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who
> can
>> verify what they say. I know you are not interested in my
> biography,
>> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
>> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
>> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging
> ditches
>> today.
>>
>> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
>> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.
> 9th. She
>> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.
> We
>> will miss her.
>>
>> ernie kurtz
>>
>> MARCH 10-12, 2005
>> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION: SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
>> PERSPECTIVES: A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY
>>
>> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm
>>
>> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and
> alcohol
>> problems. However, until recently little scientific research has
>> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be
> related or
>> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
>> prevention, and recovery. This three-day conference presents the
> latest
>> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality
> and
>> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological
> and
>> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three
> full
>> day applied workshops. In addition, breakout sessions will address
>> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
>> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
>> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.
>>
>> Keynote Speakers:
>> . Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research
> Center,
>> University of Washington: "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment
> of
>> Addictive Behaviors"
>> . Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology
> at the
>> Methodist Theological School in Ohio: "Spiritual Roots of
> Addiction and
>> Recovery"
>>
>> Other Presenters:
>> . Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -
> Berkeley: "The Good,
>> the Religious, and the Spiritual: The Same?"
>> . Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State
> University: "Explaining the
>> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
>> . Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City: "What's
> God Got to
>> Do With It? A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among
> African
>> American Youth"
>> . Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan: "Six-
> Month
>> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
>> . Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University: "Eating
>> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
>> . Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden: "The
> Spiritual
>> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
>> Sweden: The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis
> in
>> Addiction Research"
>>
>> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
>> . Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan
> Marlatt &
>> Jean Kristeller)
>> . Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &
> Kathy Goggin)
>>
>> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
>> . Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and
> Addiction (Tom
>> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
>> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop
> may do
>> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the
> workshop)
>>
>> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health
> Education
>> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana. The cost of the
>> three-day conference is $150 ($65 for full time students), and
> includes
>> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
>> reception on Thursday early evening. You can also elect to attend
> only
>> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,
> continental
>> breakfast, and lunch). Continuing Education Credits are available
> for
>> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors
> (see
>> the conference web-site for details). For more information about
> the
>> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-
> 2449.
>>
>> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
>> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2137 hrlywolfiz
The most important lesson-2nd edition? The most important lesson-2nd edition? 1/25/2005 11:40:00 AM

A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out
of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most
important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't
need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely. It has
something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten
how to pray you learn a little about that too.

Can anyone tell me the title of that story? It seems different
groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.

I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
meeting.

thanks
Sheila H

0 -1 0 0
2138 pennington2
Re: The most important lesson-2nd edition? The most important lesson-2nd edition? 1/25/2005 1:16:00 PM

The quote is from "There's Nothing the Matter with Me!" (page 499 in
the Second Edition of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous). The
story is in the section "They Nearly Lost All," and the complete quote
reads:

"That taught me the most important lesson I have ever learned in my
entire life. That is that A.A. doesn't need me, but I need A.A. Very
desperately, very sincerely, very humbly. Not all at once, because you
can't get it all at once, just a little bit at a time. They told me,
"You've got to get out and work a little; you've got to give." They
told me that giving was living, and that living was loving, and loving
was God. And you don't have to worry about God, because He's sitting
right in front of your eyes.
You get just a little sobriety, and you get just a little
humility. Not much, just a little. Not the humility of sackcloth and
ashes, but the humility of a man who's glad he's alive and can serve.
You get just a little tolerance, not too much, but just enough to sit
and listen to the other guy."

(quoted text is from page 507 of the Second Edition of the Big Book of
Alcoholics Anonymous)

p2

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "hrlywolfiz" <wolfdancer@c...>
wrote:
>
> A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out
> of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most
> important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't
> need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely. It has
> something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten
> how to pray you learn a little about that too.
>
> Can anyone tell me the title of that story? It seems different
> groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.
>
> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
> addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
> meeting.
>
> thanks
> Sheila H

0 -1 0 0
2139 Thumper
Re: The most important lesson-2nd edition? The most important lesson-2nd edition? 1/25/2005 1:31:00 PM

The title of the story you are looking for is in the
Second Edition 499 - 508

THERE'S NOTHING THE MATTER WITH ME!


That's what the man said as he hocked his shoes for
the price of two bottles of Sneaky Pete. He drank
bayzo, canned heat, and shoe polish. He did a
phoney routine in A.A. for a while. And then he got
hold of the real thing.


I found it in a search on silkworth.net. Enjoy!

Paula Barnette


=====
in the right formation, the lifting power of many wings can achieve twice the
distance of any bird flying alone.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

0 -1 0 0
2140 Arkie Koehl
Re: The most important lesson-2nd edition? The most important lesson-2nd edition? 1/25/2005 5:04:00 PM

On Jan 25, 2005, at 6:40, hrlywolfiz wrote:

> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
> addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
> meeting.

It's fairly common here in Honolulu, in some meetings, to read the
beginning of "More About Alcoholism" in the 3rd Chapter. In the history
meeting (see below), we read the preface to "Pass It On," where it
explains how the book got its name.

Arkie

PS & FWIW: I attend two meetings which have slightly "off the beaten
path" reading formats:

1. Thursday noon, "AA History 101." We read from the
conference-approved histories; we're currently reading "Pass It On."
It's a new meeting, gaining popularity. Not geared at newcomers,
obviously. The way I position it is that I gain a greater appreciation
for my Program by knowing its history; just as I understand my country
better by knowing its history.

2. Friday "High Nooners." Having completed reading all the stories in
the 4th edition, the group purchased several copies of "Experience,
Strength & Hope," the conference-approved collection of all the 1st,
2nd and 3rd Ed. stories no longer appearing. We read a story a week,
and it's wonderful seeing some of the old stories again or coming upon
stories for the first time.

Arkie

0 -1 0 0
2141 john pizzamiglio
Re: Stools and Bottles Stools and Bottles 1/25/2005 10:13:00 PM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" <victhor90@y...>
wrote:
>
> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I
> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first
> publish.
>
> Thank you in advance
>
> Victor F.
> Austin, Texas
i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review
listed on retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors
bios to see if it is listed to any one

0 -1 0 0
2142 steve
amateur archivist at it again amateur archivist at it again 1/25/2005 11:21:00 PM

Hello everyone,

Thanks to Mel and others who helped me build an archive for the
kalamazoo Michigan area--it is now safely in the hands of the current
Delegate.

I have moved to Mount Pleasant Michigan and am at it again...if
anyone has any info please pass along, I'm starting from near nothing
here.

Also I've recently heard of a recording of Glenn Cofee sp? in 1969 in
Indiana at a conference--if anyone has any info on him or a Don
Stevens from Michigan that would help too...Thanks a bunch

Steve

0 -1 0 0
2143 Corey Franks
Re: Re: Stools and Bottles Stools and Bottles 1/26/2005

HI Victor. We at www.archivesinternational.org have a picture of Ed Webster
along with Barry Collins those two are the authors of that book and a few others
you may recognize. Take a look we also have much more information on both of
them and will be putting it on out site soon. THX! Corey F.

john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" <victhor90@y...>
wrote:
>
> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I
> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first
> publish.
>
> Thank you in advance
>
> Victor F.
> Austin, Texas
i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review
listed on retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors
bios to see if it is listed to any one





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0 -1 0 0
2144 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Re: Stools and Bottles Stools and Bottles 1/26/2005 2:04:00 AM

Dear John (and Victor),

Ed Webster (who lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota) published The Little Red Book
in 1946 under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed had the help and support
of Dr. Bob, who gave numerous suggestions for wording various passages. That was
his most famous book, but Ed also wrote the book you were asking about, Stools
and Bottles (1955), and he also wrote Barroom Reveries (1958) and Our Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities (in 1970, just a year before his death). In various
places in the U.S. and Canada, Ed was the third most widely read A.A. author.

For more information see http://hindsfoot.org/redbk1.html

Jack H., an AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, has all of Ed Webster's
papers, and knows an extraordinary amount about him. We need someone to write a
biography of Ed. Jack's material would be invaluable for that.

Bill Pittman at the Hazelden Archives also knows a good deal. See the Foreword
which Bill wrote for the Fiftieth Anniversary Edition of the Little Red Book for
more about Ed Webster.

Ed went to the famous Founders Day Camping Trips in Minnesota held from 1944 to
1947 (see the photo of Dr. Bob holding a fish he caught on one of these trips in
Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers) and was close to many of the early AA leaders
from places like Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, and Winnipeg. He was especially
close to Dr. Bob, and Dr. Bob warmly supported Ed in his writing and publishing.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend IN)

john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" wrote:

I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I was wonder if
anyone new who the author was and when it was first publish.
Thank you in advance
Victor F.
Austin, Texas

i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review listed on
retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors bios to see if it is
listed to any one



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2145 Glenn Chesnut
Stools and Bottles Stools and Bottles 1/26/2005 2:41:00 AM

It's probably simpler to combine these two postings into a single message:

"Stephanie Burgess" <SBURGESS2004@msn.com> wrote in and said: "Stools and
Bottles is written by the same person who wrote The Little Red Book & Our
Devilish Alcoholic Personalities. It comes out of the Nicolette Group in
Minnesota, and was published originally by ?Cobb Webster as I seem to remember.
Since my copies are in storage in Michigan and I am in New Mexico, I cannot
verify the publisher."



James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net> wrote in and said: "For what it is worth,
the page at: http://www.martydee.com/AA/archives/000825.html states: 'Ed
Webster (who later wrote Stools and Bottles and Our Devilish Alcoholic
Personalities) was probably the principal author.' Talking about The Little Red
Book."

To this let me add just a few of notes of my own:

When "The Little Red Book" first came out, the short title was simply "The
Twelve Steps." The long title was "An Interpretation of THE TWELVE STEPS of the
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PROGRAM." It had a dark burgundy cover, and therefore
eventually came to be referred to by AA people as "the little red book," which
was eventually used as the official title.

It said on the title page of the first edition (1946) that it was published by
"Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" in Minneapolis. This simply meant that Barry
COLL-ins and Ed WEB-ster paid for printing it themselves. There was not really
any commercial publishing firm called Coll-Webb. Ed Webster and Barry Collins
did it under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. It was based
on the beginners' lessons which Ed Webster had been giving at the Nicollet Group
for some time. These were the earliest known AA beginners' classes, on the basis
of our current knowledge.

Jack H., the AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, who has all of Ed Webster's
papers, says that Ed was the one who did all the writing on all four books (The
Little Red Book, Stools and Bottles, Barroom Reveries, and Our Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities). Barry Collins seems to have helped pay for getting The
Little Red Book published, Jack says, and that sort of thing, but not to have
been involved in the writing itself.

Well, the one exception to the statement that Ed did all the writing on all four
books, is that Dr. Bob sent a lot of comments to Ed as he published the various
early editions of The Little Red Book, so in one sense we could say that Ed
Webster was the primary author of The Little Red Book, but that Dr. Bob also
played a part in writing it.

If you find a copy of Barroom Reveries anywhere, this is a VERY rare book. Ed
intended it to be a book of AA humor, and it fell flat on its face, Jack says,
so it was never reprinted. The "first edition first printing" is the only
version of this book that exists, and there could not be many copies at all
surviving by this point.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2146 Naomi Blankenship
Re: I am an alcoholic? I am an alcoholic? 1/26/2005 12:45:00 PM

Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,

I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom
of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't
started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings
on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the
name. On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.
At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.

I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I
have yet to come across here I picked up the note from. Then again
it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too. My sponsor told me
long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important
to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.

I'll keep looking for the reference. Thanks for letting me sharing
and sharing in my sobriety.

Naomi

0 -1 0 0
2147 Nicholas J. Hernandez
Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 12:34:00 PM

How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?

0 -1 0 0
2148 ArtSheehan
RE: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 3:21:00 PM

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the
1st edition Big Book. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to
“spiritual awakening” and the term “as the result of these steps” was
changed to “as the result of those steps.” Along with the wording changes to
Step 12, the appendix, “Spiritual Experience” was added (it was appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the
“educational variety.”



The initial version of the “Spiritual Experience” appendix did not contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term “those
steps” back to “these steps.” The quotation attributed to Spencer originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled “An Artist’s Concept” by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book’s dust jacket). Ray C’s story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation (a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the last
sentences of the appendix that “Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.”



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term “survival of
the fittest.”



_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?








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0 -1 0 0
2149 Rob White
RE: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 4:15:00 PM

I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."



The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."



_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?








Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1106848870/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kcu6pau/*http:/cl
k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1106762470184944>



<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110676

2470184944>



<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=grphealth

/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=773622983>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2150 ny-aa@att.net
To Wives To Wives 1/26/2005 4:31:00 PM

The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
"To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
been found to support that?
___________________________________________

An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
Cleveland, Ohio
p. 378 in 1st edition

Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.

There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
wrote it.

She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
and good fortune because we found a new way of living."

Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
and their son.

When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
to give their problems to God.

She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
When we live with God we want for nothing."

0 -1 0 0
2151 ArtSheehan
RE: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 5:06:00 PM

I had the same thought about the source of the quotation - that it might
come from a piece of correspondence rather than a published work.



A reputable web site has had a posting for over a year now asking anyone who
might be aware of the source of the quotation to please identify it. Some
citations were sent in but they haven’t been verified.



Searches through web sites specializing in quotations, either will not have
the quotation in their data base or cite the Big Book as its source (not
surprising since there have been so many Big Books distributed).



Arthur



_____

From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer



I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."



The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."



_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?








Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12c56dp7k/M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=gr

phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1106848870/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kcu6pau/*http:/cl
k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1106762470184944>



<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/
<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110676
> &time=110676

2470184944>



<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=grphealth

/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=773622983>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2152 Bill Lash
RE: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 6:07:00 PM

This just in. Can anyone verify this?

Herbert Spencer quote is from his book
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido CA for sending this.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer


I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."



The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."



_____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2153 Steve Aeilts
Re: Re: I am an alcoholic? I am an alcoholic? 1/26/2005 6:41:00 PM

naomi,

well, my sponsor taught me to ID my self (in any open meeting) as:

"My name is Steve, and I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous..."

he showed me a paragraph in the BBook forwords that came from the first edition
where Bill wrote:

"When writing or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our
Fellowship to omit his personal name, designating himself instead as 'a member
of Alcoholics Anonymous.' "

this is on page xiii of the fourth edition.

i do refer to myself as "I'm Steve and i'm an alcoholic" at our Home Group
business meetings or at any closed meeting i might attend.

this is just the way we do it here in Casper, Wyoming.

or at least this is the way i do it here in town.

thanks, and maybe i'll see you on the Great Highway down the road!

i remain,

love&peace, steve a. dos: April 24, 1998
----- Original Message -----
From: Naomi Blankenship
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: I am an alcoholic?



Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,

I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom
of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't
started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings
on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the
name. On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.
At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.

I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I
have yet to come across here I picked up the note from. Then again
it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too. My sponsor told me
long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important
to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.

I'll keep looking for the reference. Thanks for letting me sharing
and sharing in my sobriety.

Naomi




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0 -1 0 0
2154 Tom P.
Re: Herbert Spencer Herbert Spencer 1/26/2005 8:16:00 PM

"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his
Herbert Spencer
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003
Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"

This is from http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html

Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet. If I had $225.00
I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-
7623353
but I don't. And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need
to read about any more anyway.

Tom P.








--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Bill Lash <barefootbill@o...>
wrote:
> This just in. Can anyone verify this?
>
> Herbert Spencer quote is from his book
> "The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
> Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192
>
> Special Thanks to Dave Howard
> of Escondido CA for sending this.
>
> Just Love,
> Barefoot Bill
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@p...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer
>
>
> I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were
taken
> from an unpublished letter.
>
> any truth to that?
>
> Rob W.
> Baltimore
>
> >>> ArtSheehan@m... 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>
>
> Hi Nicholas
>
>
>
> In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd
printing
> of the
> 1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
> to
> "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
> steps" was
> changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
> changes to
> Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
> appendix I
> then, not appendix II).
>
>
>
> The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought
that they
> had
> to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to
the
> one
> Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
> spiritual
> experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James
called
> the
> "educational variety."
>
>
>
> The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
> contain
> the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the
appendix
> until
> mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd
printing
> of
> the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the
term
> "those
> steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
> originally
> appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
> Concept" by Ray
> C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
> C's story
> was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the
quotation was
> added
> to the appendix.
>
>
>
> The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
> written
> work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the
quotation
> (a
> few works have been cited but not verified).
>
>
>
> I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had
much, if
> any,
> influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis
to the
> last
> sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
> mindedness are
> the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
>
>
> PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
> "survival of
> the fittest."
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@y...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer
>
>
>
>
> How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson? Was he
> mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or
was
> his work more thouroughly studied?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2155 Roy V. Tellis
Re: Author of "Life Saving Words"/Early AA History in India Author of "Life Saving Words"/Early AA History in India 1/27/2005 2:13:00 AM

Dear Nancy,

I may have inadvertantly caused some confusion when I
sent in the email regarding Trevor K., the author of
"Life Saving Words" in the 3rd Edition of the Big
Book. I may have given the impression that Trevor K.
was the founding member of AA in India. In actual fact
the FIRST Indian who sobered up in response to the
Canadian Charley Marshall's advertisemet was a
schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harry
Mathais, to be soon followed by John G., Ignatius P.,
Tony M., and Vithal P. The author of the story Trevor
K. INDEPENDENTLY saw the advertisement, wrote to
Charlie in Delhi, received literature and sobered up
as the result of studying the literature and later had
the opportunity to meet Charley. I apologise for any
confusion caused and am sending you a revised email.

Thank you for letting me share,
Roy T.




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

0 -1 0 0
2156 Diz Titcher
Re: To Wives To Wives 1/27/2005 6:43:00 AM

In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,
Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.
Diz T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ny-aa@att.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives


>
> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
> been found to support that?
> ___________________________________________
>
> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
> Cleveland, Ohio
> p. 378 in 1st edition
>
> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.
>
> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
> wrote it.
>
> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."
>
> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
> and their son.
>
> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
> to give their problems to God.
>
> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
> When we live with God we want for nothing."
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2157 Roy V. Tellis
Revision: Author of "Life Saving Words" 3rd Edition Revision: Author of "Life Saving Words" 3rd Edition 1/27/2005 2:36:00 AM

Dear Nancy,

My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in
Bombay India in April 1990. I was going through the
brief biograpies of the authors of the stories and I
notices that you did not have the name or accurate
sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words"
from the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends
involved in service in India and am forwarding you
some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA
Manual (Historical section):

HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots
started a meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but
it did not survive the war. Till 1957 a few
individuals attempted sobriety through direct
correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early
1957, a Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to
the Candian Embassy at New Delhi. Prior to his coming
to India, Charley wrote to our co-founder, Bill W.
informing that he was being sent to New Delhi
and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A.
activities, and if there are any contacts there, that
I can get in touch with, I would surely welcome the
opportunity". The reply from General Service Office,
N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti
M. to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence
indicates that Charley M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th
January 1957 and was able to locate Sylvia and
Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place
advertisements in local newspapers offering help to
those with a drinking problem.

The FIRST Indian who responded to the advertisemet was
a schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harold
Mathias, who called on Charley M. personally in New
Delhi. Harry M. spent some days with Charley at Delhi
learning about the disease of alcoholism and the
program and spiritual principles of Alcoholics
Anonymous. He returned to Mumbai armed with the
literature given to him and stopped drinking from 5th
May 1957 till his premature sober death on 5th June,
1967. On his return to Bombay he twelve-stepped John
G., Ignatius P., Tony M., and Vithal P., who were
(are) some of the pioneers in India.

A letter from G.S.O. New York to Charley M. dated 5th
March 1957 saying "Thanks so much for your letter
dated 24th February 1957 and the enclosed registration
card for the New Delhi Group". This indicates that an
A.A. group was started in New Delhi in early February
1957.

The efforts of Harry M. in spreading the message were
indeed stupendous, and by November, 1957, after about
six months, a small group was already functioning in
Mumbai. A letter from G.S.O. New York to Harry M.
dated 17th March 1958, discussed several issues and
enclosed such literature as "The Structure and
Services of AA", and also material on "A.A. and
Hospital Co-operation". Within less than a year the
A.A. group in Mumbai had become active. In the A.A.
Grapevine of October 1958, there was a two page report
of A.A. in India written by Charley M. The report
says that the largest concentration of A.A. members
was in Mumbai mentioning the figure as 23. The A.A.
directory card of December 1958 records that A.A. in
India consisted of 48 members, of whom Mumbai had 30,
Delhi 7, Calcutta 5 and one or two in other cities.

AUTHOR OG LIFE SAVING WORDS
Another pioneer of the A.A. movement outside Mumbai
was Lieutenant Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment
of the Indian Army. He to responded to the newspaper
advertisemnt, and had the opportunity to come in
contact with Charley M. through correspondence. After
receiving literature from Charleyin the mail, Trevor
K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his
death on 31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K.
appears in the BIG BOOK entitled - "Life-saving
words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had the good
fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M. for
the first time, almost a month after the sobered up
through the mail. Charley suggested that he register
as a "loner" due to his army postings. Trevor's
service postings took him to new places in India and
he became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in
India sowing the seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore,
Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,
Calcutta and other cities.

in fellowship
Roy T.
Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

0 -1 0 0
2158 ArtSheehan
Herbert Spencer Redux Herbert Spencer Redux 1/27/2005 1:28:00 PM

Hi

Just checked with the webmaster of the link via e-mail.

He replied that the cited source is still not verified.

I'd buy that book if I was sure the quotation is in it.

Sure don't want to pay a $225 tuition to learn that it's not though.

Cheers

Arthur



From: "Tom P." <tomper99@y...
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/post?postID=4Ak-8lWjaa
SZYeCpCv8eZorpjTVULZwo0AzMkETZClojkxB8LhiEcexINAHDuCosf0p9lmIKO1qr-hhBjw> >
Date: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:16 am
Subject: Re: Herbert Spencer

"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his
Herbert Spencer
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003
Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"

This is from http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html

Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet. If I had $225.00
I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-
7623353
but I don't. And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need
to read about any more anyway.

Tom P.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2159 ArtSheehan
RE: To Wives To Wives 1/27/2005 2:34:00 PM

Mary C Darrah's excellent biography "Sister Ignatia" (pgs 128-129) states
that Bill wrote to Dr Bob that he thought Anne (Dr Bob's wife) should write
the chapter. Anne declined. Darrah goes on to state that a discrepancy
exists in comparing NY and Akron archive records regarding the authorship of
"To Wives." At the end of her commentary, Darrah reports that Marie B wrote
a draft that Bill W revised. I presume this was premised on the Akron
archives records.



Other sources state that Bill W wrote the chapter:



(1) Lois W's in "Lois Remembers" (pg 114) states that Bill wrote the chapter
although she suggested to him that she should write it.



(2) Francis Hartigan in "Bill W" (pgs 114-115) cites Lois as being far
angrier than she described herself in "Lois Remembers" and also states that
Bill W wrote the chapter. Hartigan was Lois W's personal secretary and
confidant.



(3) "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" states "Bill himself wrote the chapter
that came to be called 'To Wives' and Marie B, the wife of a member from
Cleveland, wrote a personal account for the story section of the first
edition."



More sources may comment on the matter, however, barring revelation of the
details in the Akron archive's "indication" the weight of evidence leans to
concluding that Bill W was the author of the chapter rather than Marie B.



But I'd still be very curious to learn what is in the Akron archives data.
Does anyone know?



Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Diz Titcher [mailto:rtitcher@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:44 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives



In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,
Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.
Diz T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ny-aa@att.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives


>
> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
> been found to support that?
> ___________________________________________
>
> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
> Cleveland, Ohio
> p. 378 in 1st edition
>
> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.
>
> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
> wrote it.
>
> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."
>
> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
> and their son.
>
> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
> to give their problems to God.
>
> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
> When we live with God we want for nothing."
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

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AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2160 Nicholas J. Hernandez
Re: Herbert Spencer Redux Herbert Spencer Redux 1/28/2005 11:46:00 AM

When you look at the Amazon site, you can check the table of
contents of the book. The source pointing to p 192 is in a chapter
titled "Closed Head Injury" by a David I. Graham. So the chapter is
not even by Herbert Spencer. Maybe Mr. Graham metions the quote,
but I doubt if he cites its source as anything other than Herbert
Spencer or the Big Book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/

The bigger question I had was how much influence did the ideas of
Herbert Spencer have on Bill Wilson.

By the way Herbert Spencer was a big influence on Henri Bergson who
in turn had a big influence on William James.

0 -1 0 0
2170 Jaime Maliachi
Jack Alexander''Birthday and place Jack Alexander''Birthday and place 2/8/2005 12:20:00 PM

Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2172 Mel Barger
Re: Jack Alexander''Birthday and place Jack Alexander''Birthday and place 2/9/2005 2:06:00 PM

Hi Jaime,
I do know that Jack Alexander died in 1975. He was an AA trustee for a
length of time. Perhaps the 1975 Grapevines would have a mention.
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jack Alexander'Birthday and place




Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2173 Charles Knapp
Jack Alexander Jack Alexander 2/9/2005 9:57:00 PM

Hello,

I have been trying for some time to get more information about Jack. I have
written the Sat Evening Post Archives, and they no help at all. They only knew
he wrote for the magazine. I was able to find a list of articles he had written
and I am including that list. I would really like to find a photo of Jack for
our archives, but haven't found a good one yet. The most information I found on
him was from his memorial found in the December 1975 AA Grapevine.
Hope this helps
Charles from California

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 1975 AA Grapevine
Passing of Jack Alexander
Recalls Early AA Growth

Our Fellowship has reason to be forever grateful to Jack Alexander, who died on
September 17 in St. Petersburg, Fla., at 73. AA was less than six years old,
with a membership around 2,000, when the reporter and magazine writer was
assigned to do a Saturday Evening Post article on the obscure group of
recovering alcoholics.


Jack approached the job skeptically, but ended his research as "a true AA
convert in spirit," in the words of co-founder Bill W. The article (now
re-printed as an AA pamphlet, "The Jack Alexander Article") was published in the
March 1, 1941, issue - and by the end of that year, AA membership had reached
8,000! In the May 1945 Grapevine, Jack told the story-behind-the-story, "Were
the AAs Pulling My Leg?'


During Jack's 1951-56 service as a non-alcoholic trustee on the AA General
Service Board, he "added the final editorial touch" to the manuscript of the
"Twelve and Twelve." He was a senior editor on the Post at his retirement, in
1964. After he and his wife (who survives him) moved to Florida, he kept in
touch with AA until his health began to fail.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALEXANDER, JACK Alphabetical

a.. * Alcoholics Anonymous, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
b.. * All Father's Chillun Got Heavens, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18
1939
c.. * The Amazing Story of Walt Disney, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31,
Nov 7 1953
d.. * Border Without Bayonets, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
e.. * Boss on the Spot, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
f.. * Buyer No. 1, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
g.. * Cellini to Hearst to Klotz, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
h.. * The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Apr 12 1947
i.. * The Cop with the Criminal Brother, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7
1959
j.. * Cover Man (Norman Rockwell), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943
k.. * The Dagwood and Blondie Man, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948;
about Chic Young.
l.. * Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar
2 1957
m.. * The Drunkard's Best Friend, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;
Alcoholics Anonymous.
n.. * Everybody's Business, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A
great library can house romance as well as books.
o.. * He Rose from the Rich, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
p.. * Iron Floats to Market, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
q.. * "Just Call Mr. C.R.", (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
r.. * King Hanky-Panky of Jersey, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
s.. * The Last Shall be First, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
t.. * Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8
1938
u.. * Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9
1958
v.. * Nervous Ice, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
w.. * The Ordeal of Judge Medina, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950
x.. * Panhandle Puck, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
y.. * Reformer in the Promised Land, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22
1939
z.. * The Restaurants That Nickels Built, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec
18 1954
aa.. * Rip-Roaring Baillie, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
ab.. * The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Aug 9 1947
ac.. * Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30
1949
ad.. * They Sparked the Carrier Revolution, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep
16 1944
ae.. * The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3
1938
af.. * Ungovernable Governor, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
ag.. * What a President They Picked, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24
1951
ah.. * What Happened to Judge Crater?, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10
1960
ai.. * The World's Greatest Newspaper, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26
1941
aj.. * Young Man of Manhattan, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939


ALEXANDER, JACK by Date

a.. The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3
1938
b.. Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8
1938
c.. The Last Shall be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
d.. He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
e.. Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939
f.. Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22 1939
g.. Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
h.. All Father's Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18
1939
i.. Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
j.. Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
k.. King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
l.. "Just Call Mr. C.R." (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
m.. Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
n.. Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
o.. Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
p.. The World's Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26 1941
q.. Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
r.. Everybody's Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A great
library can house romance as well as books.
s.. Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
t.. Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943
u.. Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
v.. They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 16
1944
w.. Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
x.. The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday Evening
Post Apr 12 1947
y.. The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday Evening
Post Aug 9 1947
z.. The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948;
about Chic Young.
aa.. Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30
1949
ab.. The Drunkard's Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;
Alcoholics Anonymous.
ac.. The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950
ad.. What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24 1951
ae.. The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31,
Nov 7 1953
af.. The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 18
1954
ag.. Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 2
1957
ah.. Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9
1958
ai.. The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7
1959
aj.. What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10 1960






----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 699




There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Jack Alexander'Birthday and place
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:20:21 -0600
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>
Subject: Jack Alexander'Birthday and place


Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links




------------------------------------------------------------------------






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2174 Patrick Morgan
RE: Jack Alexander Jack Alexander 2/10/2005 8:19:00 AM

I’ll check and see if we have a picture for you im sure we have archives on
jack let me get back to you
Thanks
Webmaster@archivesinternational.org (Pat M.)

_____

From: Charles Knapp [mailto:cdknapp@pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:57 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jack Alexander

Hello,

I have been trying for some time to get more information about Jack. I
have written the Sat Evening Post Archives, and they no help at all. They
only knew he wrote for the magazine. I was able to find a list of articles
he had written and I am including that list. I would really like to find a
photo of Jack for our archives, but haven't found a good one yet. The most
information I found on him was from his memorial found in the December 1975
AA Grapevine.
Hope this helps
Charles from California

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

December 1975 AA Grapevine
Passing of Jack Alexander
Recalls Early AA Growth

Our Fellowship has reason to be forever grateful to Jack Alexander, who died
on September 17 in St. Petersburg, Fla., at 73. AA was less than six years
old, with a membership around 2,000, when the reporter and magazine writer
was assigned to do a Saturday Evening Post article on the obscure group of
recovering alcoholics.


Jack approached the job skeptically, but ended his research as "a true AA
convert in spirit," in the words of co-founder Bill W. The article (now
re-printed as an AA pamphlet, "The Jack Alexander Article") was published in
the March 1, 1941, issue - and by the end of that year, AA membership had
reached 8,000! In the May 1945 Grapevine, Jack told the
story-behind-the-story, "Were the AAs Pulling My Leg?'


During Jack's 1951-56 service as a non-alcoholic trustee on the AA General
Service Board, he "added the final editorial touch" to the manuscript of the
"Twelve and Twelve." He was a senior editor on the Post at his retirement,
in 1964. After he and his wife (who survives him) moved to Florida, he kept
in touch with AA until his health began to fail.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

ALEXANDER, JACK Alphabetical

a.. * Alcoholics Anonymous, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
b.. * All Father's Chillun Got Heavens, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov
18 1939
c.. * The Amazing Story of Walt Disney, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
31, Nov 7 1953
d.. * Border Without Bayonets, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
e.. * Boss on the Spot, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
f.. * Buyer No. 1, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
g.. * Cellini to Hearst to Klotz, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1
1941
h.. * The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Apr 12 1947
i.. * The Cop with the Criminal Brother, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Nov 7 1959
j.. * Cover Man (Norman Rockwell), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13
1943
k.. * The Dagwood and Blondie Man, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10
1948; about Chic Young.
l.. * Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Mar 2 1957
m.. * The Drunkard's Best Friend, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1
1950; Alcoholics Anonymous.
n.. * Everybody's Business, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A
great library can house romance as well as books.
o.. * He Rose from the Rich, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
p.. * Iron Floats to Market, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
q.. * "Just Call Mr. C.R.", (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
r.. * King Hanky-Panky of Jersey, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26
1940
s.. * The Last Shall be First, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
t.. * Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Oct 8 1938
u.. * Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo), (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Aug 9 1958
v.. * Nervous Ice, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
w.. * The Ordeal of Judge Medina, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12
1950
x.. * Panhandle Puck, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
y.. * Reformer in the Promised Land, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22
1939
z.. * The Restaurants That Nickels Built, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Dec 18 1954
aa.. * Rip-Roaring Baillie, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8
1946
ab.. * The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy), (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Aug 9 1947
ac.. * Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul
30 1949
ad.. * They Sparked the Carrier Revolution, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Sep 16 1944
ae.. * The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Sep 3 1938
af.. * Ungovernable Governor, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
ag.. * What a President They Picked, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24
1951
ah.. * What Happened to Judge Crater?, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep
10 1960
ai.. * The World's Greatest Newspaper, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul
26 1941
aj.. * Young Man of Manhattan, (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939


ALEXANDER, JACK by Date

a.. The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3
1938
b.. Missouri Dark Mule (Bennett Clark) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
8 1938
c.. The Last Shall be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939
d.. He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11 1939
e.. Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939
f.. Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22
1939
g.. Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939
h.. All Father's Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18
1939
i.. Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
j.. Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
k.. King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
l.. "Just Call Mr. C.R." (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
m.. Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
n.. Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
o.. Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
p.. The World's Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26
1941
q.. Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
r.. Everybody's Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A
great library can house romance as well as books.
s.. Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
t.. Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943

u.. Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
v.. They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep
16 1944
w.. Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
x.. The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Apr 12 1947
y.. The Senate's Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday
Evening Post Aug 9 1947
z.. The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10
1948; about Chic Young.
aa.. Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30
1949
ab.. The Drunkard's Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950;
Alcoholics Anonymous.
ac.. The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950

ad.. What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24
1951
ae.. The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct
31, Nov 7 1953
af.. The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec
18 1954
ag.. Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Mar 2 1957
ah.. Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug
9 1958
ai.. The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov
7 1959
aj.. What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10
1960






----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 699




There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Jack Alexander'Birthday and place
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:20:21 -0600
From: "Jaime Maliachi" <jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>
Subject: Jack Alexander'Birthday and place


Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00 57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



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0 -1 0 0
2175 George Cleveland
Bill W and depression Bill W and depression 2/10/2005 1:34:00 PM

What is the best source for information on what Bill W did to overcome
his depression? And is there solid information on his research with
Vitamin B therapies?

Thanks.

George Cleveland

0 -1 0 0
2176 ArtSheehan
RE: Bill W and depression Bill W and depression 2/10/2005 10:15:00 PM

Hi George

The references in the text below offer some informative
reading.

SOURCE REFERENCES:

AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big
Book, AAWS

AACOA AA Comes of Age, AAWS

BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft
cover)

BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard
cover)

BW-40 Bill W My First 40 Years,
autobiography (hard cover)

GB Getting Better Inside
Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft cover)

GTBT Grateful to Have Been There by
Nell Wing (soft cover)

LOH The Language of the Heart, AA
Grapevine Inc

LR Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

NG Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
(expanded edition, soft cover)

NW New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)

PIO Pass It On, AAWS

1912

Sept, at the beginning of the school year at Burr and
Burton, Bill W was president of the senior class, star
football player, star pitcher and captain of the baseball
team and first violin in the school orchestra. (BW-FH 19)

Nov 18, Bill W's schoolmate and "first love" Bertha Bamford,
died from hemorrhaging after surgery at the Flower Hospital
in NYC. She was the daughter of the rector of the
Manchester, VT Zion Episcopal Church. Bill learned about it
at school on the 19th. It began a 3-year episode of
depression, which severely affected his performance at
school and home. (AACOA 54, PIO 35-36, BW-RT 51-58, NG 12,
BW-FH 19-20)

1915

Early, at the start of his second semester at Norwich, Bill
W hurt his elbow and insisted on being treated by his mother
in Boston. She did not receive him well and immediately sent
him back. Bill had panic attacks that he perceived as heart
attacks. Every attempt to perform physical exercise caused
him to be taken to the college infirmary. After several
weeks of being unable to find anything wrong, the doctors
sent him home. This time he went to his grandparents in East
Dorset, VT. (BW-FH 21-22)

Spring, Bill W's condition worsened in East Dorset but
doctors could find nothing physically wrong. He spent much
of the early spring in bed complaining of "sinking spells."
(BW-FH 22) Later, his grandfather, Fayette, motivated him
with the prospect of opening an agency to sell automobiles.
Bill's depression lifted and he began trying to interest
people in buying automobiles. He wrote to his mother that he
nearly sold an automobile to the Bamfords (the parents of
his lost love). (BW-FH 23)

1927

On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room
apartment at 38 Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough
for Bill's desires, he enlarged it by renting the apartment
next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT
144, LR 71, PIO 80-81)

By the end of 1927, Bill W was so depressed by his behavior
and drinking that he signed over to Lois all rights, title
and interests of his stockbroker accounts with Baylis and
Co. and Tobey and Kirk. (LR 72, PIO 82)

1934

Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him
about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill
fell into a deep depression (his "deflation at depth") and
had a profound spiritual experience after crying out "If
there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later
assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to
what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would
later refer to this as his "white flash" or "hot flash"
experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG
19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)

1944

Summer, Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Tiebout
for debilitating episodes of depression. Some AA members
were outraged and castigated Bill for "not working the
program," "secretly drinking" and "pill taking." Bill
endured the attacks in silence. (BW-RT 299, BW-40 166, BW-FH
6, 160-161, 166, PIO 292-303, GTBT 121)

1945

Bill W started seeing psychotherapist, Dr Frances Weeks (a
Jungian) once a week on Fridays. He continued to see her
until 1949 for his episodes of depression. (BW-FH 166-167,
GB 66, PIO 334-335)

1955

After 1955 the depression that had plagued Bill W for so
long, lifted and he regained his bright outlook. However,
during 1956, his best friend, Mark Whalon, died. (PIO 359,
364)

1956

There is a link between Bill's LSD and niacin (vitamin B3)
experiences:

British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to
Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and
Abram Hoffer (the founders of orthomolecular psychiatry).
Humphrey and Osmond were working with schizophrenic and
alcoholic patients at a Canadian hospital.

Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in CA
on August 29, 1956. Medically supervised by psychiatrist
Sidney Cohen of the LA VA hospital, the LSD experiments
occurred well prior to the "hippie era" of the late 1960's.

At the time, LSD was thought to have psychotherapeutic
potential (research was also being funded by the National
Institutes of Health and National Academy of Sciences). The
intent of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an experience
similar to the DTs in hopes that it might shock alcoholics
away from alcohol.

Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who
accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker
and Lois Wilson. Marty M and other AA members participated
in NY (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from
Roosevelt Hospital).

Bill had several experiments with LSD up to 1959 (perhaps
into the early 1960's). The book "Pass It On" (PIO 368-377)
reports the full LSD story and notes that there were
repercussions within AA over these activities. Lois was a
reluctant participant and claimed to have had no response to
the chemical.

1966

Hoffer and Osmond did research that later influenced Bill,
in December 1966, to enthusiastically embrace a campaign to
promote vitamin B3 (niacin) therapy. It also created
Traditions issues within the Fellowship and caused a bit of
an uproar. The book "Pass It On" (PIO 387-391) has a fairly
full discussion.

Note:

In January 1958, Bill wrote a Grapevine article titled "The
Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety" commenting that he had a
bad episode of depression after 1955. The article also
mentions what he did in response to it.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: George Cleveland [mailto:pauguspass@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and depression



What is the best source for information on what Bill W did
to overcome
his depression? And is there solid information on his
research with
Vitamin B therapies?

Thanks.

George Cleveland











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0 -1 0 0
2177 chesbayman56
Frank Lynch Frank Lynch 2/10/2005 11:39:00 PM

Hello Folks,
I have been trying, with little success, to get any historical info
on Frank Lynch and his wife. I know that he was very instrumental in
helping several people to get sober in the mid- Atlantic region and
that his sponsor was Clarence Snyder. He brought meetings into St.
Elizabeth's Hospital in DC and started several regular meetings in
Southern Maryland. I also have heard it said that he died with a
resentment about his story not being published in the 3rd edition.
However I have spoken with another who had lunch with him a week
before he passed away in the mid 80's and that he was more concerned
with helping this person get sober than he was with his own physical
health.

Any information would be greatly appreciated
Billy C
Annapolis Maryland

0 -1 0 0
2178 Charlie Bishop Jr.
Re: B-3 & LSD from Charlie Bishop, Jr. B-3 & LSD from Charlie Bishop, Jr. 2/11/2005 12:02:00 AM

There are two books published by The Bishop of Books that treat the B-3 and LSD
questions.

The COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ. Wheeling, WV, The Bishop of Books, 1999. FIRST
EDITION, with SIGNED KURTZ BOOKPLATE. 231pp. Eleven great essays by Kurtz over
the years, including "Bill W. & LSD." Others: William James, Lay Treatment, AA
Spirituality, Shame, Research on A.A., etc. Kurtz, of course, is the author of
"NOT-GOD: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous." There are only 17 copies left
out of the first edition printing of 1,000 copies. $17. + $3. USPS book rate
postage.

and ...

Bill Wilson & The Vitamin B-3 Therapy 1965-1971. Reprinted by The Bishop of
Books, Wheeling, WV, 2002, approx. 100 pages, 8.5x11" softbound. Three
communications from Bill W. to A.A.'s Physicians about the research done on B-3.
This was NOT Conference-approved literature and was Bill's last major project
before his death. A good number of the early oldtimers in AA took niacin every
day. Only 3 copies left out of the second reprinting of 50 copes. $25. + $3.
USPS first class mailing.

I rarely ever post any message promoting my books and will not feel offended in
the least if you decide not to use this; however, both items contain solid
information not available anywhere else about B-3 and LSD. As always, thanks
and servus, Charlie Bishop, Jr. (304) 242-2937 or email me at
bishopbk@comcast.net or write: 46 Eureka Ave., Wheeling, WV 26003.

amen.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2179 Theron
RE: Bill W and depression Bill W and depression 2/11/2005 12:59:00 PM

The pamphlet that Bill had published on niacin therapy was a collection of
articles by several doctors who had done research in the area. My former
sponsor (since moved out of state) had a copy and I believe I saw one at
the Akron A.A. Archives, too, if memory serves correctly (always
questionable). When searching for information on this, try using
"nicotonic acid" and "nicotinamide"; both are forms of niacin and the terms
are often used in the research literature.

The Akron Archives also has a letter from Bill W. to a member on the
subject of depression; if you get a chance to visit, be sure to ask to see it.

Peace,

Theron


At 10:15 PM 2/10/2005, ArtSheehan wrote:


>Hi George
>
>The references in the text below offer some informative
>reading.
>
>SOURCE REFERENCES:
>
>AABB Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big
>Book, AAWS
>
>AACOA AA Comes of Age, AAWS
>
>BW-RT Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft
>cover)
>
>BW-FH Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard
>cover)
>
>BW-40 Bill W My First 40 Years,
>autobiography (hard cover)
>
>GB Getting Better Inside
>Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft cover)
>
>GTBT Grateful to Have Been There by
>Nell Wing (soft cover)
>
>LOH The Language of the Heart, AA
>Grapevine Inc
>
>LR Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
>
>NG Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
>(expanded edition, soft cover)
>
>NW New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)
>
>PIO Pass It On, AAWS
>
>1912
>
>Sept, at the beginning of the school year at Burr and
>Burton, Bill W was president of the senior class, star
>football player, star pitcher and captain of the baseball
>team and first violin in the school orchestra. (BW-FH 19)
>
>Nov 18, Bill W's schoolmate and "first love" Bertha Bamford,
>died from hemorrhaging after surgery at the Flower Hospital
>in NYC. She was the daughter of the rector of the
>Manchester, VT Zion Episcopal Church. Bill learned about it
>at school on the 19th. It began a 3-year episode of
>depression, which severely affected his performance at
>school and home. (AACOA 54, PIO 35-36, BW-RT 51-58, NG 12,
>BW-FH 19-20)
>
>1915
>
>Early, at the start of his second semester at Norwich, Bill
>W hurt his elbow and insisted on being treated by his mother
>in Boston. She did not receive him well and immediately sent
>him back. Bill had panic attacks that he perceived as heart
>attacks. Every attempt to perform physical exercise caused
>him to be taken to the college infirmary. After several
>weeks of being unable to find anything wrong, the doctors
>sent him home. This time he went to his grandparents in East
>Dorset, VT. (BW-FH 21-22)
>
>Spring, Bill W's condition worsened in East Dorset but
>doctors could find nothing physically wrong. He spent much
>of the early spring in bed complaining of "sinking spells."
>(BW-FH 22) Later, his grandfather, Fayette, motivated him
>with the prospect of opening an agency to sell automobiles.
>Bill's depression lifted and he began trying to interest
>people in buying automobiles. He wrote to his mother that he
>nearly sold an automobile to the Bamfords (the parents of
>his lost love). (BW-FH 23)
>
>1927
>
>On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room
>apartment at 38 Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough
>for Bill's desires, he enlarged it by renting the apartment
>next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT
>144, LR 71, PIO 80-81)
>
>By the end of 1927, Bill W was so depressed by his behavior
>and drinking that he signed over to Lois all rights, title
>and interests of his stockbroker accounts with Baylis and
>Co. and Tobey and Kirk. (LR 72, PIO 82)
>
>1934
>
>Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him
>about the Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill
>fell into a deep depression (his "deflation at depth") and
>had a profound spiritual experience after crying out "If
>there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later
>assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to
>what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would
>later refer to this as his "white flash" or "hot flash"
>experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG
>19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)
>
>1944
>
>Summer, Bill W began twice-a-week treatment with Dr Tiebout
>for debilitating episodes of depression. Some AA members
>were outraged and castigated Bill for "not working the
>program," "secretly drinking" and "pill taking." Bill
>endured the attacks in silence. (BW-RT 299, BW-40 166, BW-FH
>6, 160-161, 166, PIO 292-303, GTBT 121)
>
>1945
>
>Bill W started seeing psychotherapist, Dr Frances Weeks (a
>Jungian) once a week on Fridays. He continued to see her
>until 1949 for his episodes of depression. (BW-FH 166-167,
>GB 66, PIO 334-335)
>
>1955
>
>After 1955 the depression that had plagued Bill W for so
>long, lifted and he regained his bright outlook. However,
>during 1956, his best friend, Mark Whalon, died. (PIO 359,
>364)
>
>1956
>
>There is a link between Bill's LSD and niacin (vitamin B3)
>experiences:
>
>British radio commentator Gerald Heard introduced Bill W to
>Aldous Huxley and British psychiatrists Humphrey Osmond and
>Abram Hoffer (the founders of orthomolecular psychiatry).
>Humphrey and Osmond were working with schizophrenic and
>alcoholic patients at a Canadian hospital.
>
>Bill joined with Heard and Huxley and first took LSD in CA
>on August 29, 1956. Medically supervised by psychiatrist
>Sidney Cohen of the LA VA hospital, the LSD experiments
>occurred well prior to the "hippie era" of the late 1960's.
>
>At the time, LSD was thought to have psychotherapeutic
>potential (research was also being funded by the National
>Institutes of Health and National Academy of Sciences). The
>intent of Osmond and Hoffer was to induce an experience
>similar to the DTs in hopes that it might shock alcoholics
>away from alcohol.
>
>Among those invited to experiment with LSD (and who
>accepted) were Nell Wing, Father Ed Dowling, Sam Shoemaker
>and Lois Wilson. Marty M and other AA members participated
>in NY (under medical supervision by a psychiatrist from
>Roosevelt Hospital).
>
>Bill had several experiments with LSD up to 1959 (perhaps
>into the early 1960's). The book "Pass It On" (PIO 368-377)
>reports the full LSD story and notes that there were
>repercussions within AA over these activities. Lois was a
>reluctant participant and claimed to have had no response to
>the chemical.
>
>1966
>
>Hoffer and Osmond did research that later influenced Bill,
>in December 1966, to enthusiastically embrace a campaign to
>promote vitamin B3 (niacin) therapy. It also created
>Traditions issues within the Fellowship and caused a bit of
>an uproar. The book "Pass It On" (PIO 387-391) has a fairly
>full discussion.
>
>Note:
>
>In January 1958, Bill wrote a Grapevine article titled "The
>Next Frontier: Emotional Sobriety" commenting that he had a
>bad episode of depression after 1955. The article also
>mentions what he did in response to it.
>
>Cheers
>
>Arthur
>
> _____
>
>From: George Cleveland [mailto:pauguspass@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:35 PM
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and depression
>
>
>
>What is the best source for information on what Bill W did
>to overcome
>his depression? And is there solid information on his
>research with
>Vitamin B therapies?
>
>Thanks.
>
>George Cleveland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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0 -1 0 0
2180 lghforum
Jim''s insanity... BB Jim''s insanity... BB 2/10/2005 11:25:00 PM

A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking
begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out
anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.
Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me
identify "Jim" in this story...
"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man
has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative
automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)

Thanks!

LGH

0 -1 0 0
2181 Robert Stonebraker
RE: Jim''s insanity... BB Jim''s insanity... BB 2/12/2005 9:23:00 AM

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story

Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another
Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there, plus a
short biography.

Bob S, Richmond, IN




-----Original Message-----
From: lghforum [mailto:lghforum@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB



A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking
begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out
anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.
Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me
identify "Jim" in this story...
"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man
has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative
automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)

Thanks!

LGH










Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2182 jlobdell54
Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander 2/13/2005 3:07:00 PM

The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell

0 -1 0 0
2183 Bill Lash
AA Here Meet With Chief of Society (Tuscon AZ 4/6/44) AA Here Meet With Chief of Society (Tuscon AZ 4/6/44) 2/14/2005 2:25:00 PM

The author of this article was a close friend of Dave S. The author was not
one of us and passed away last year at age 79. His wife, who is also close
friend, found this newspaper article in his things and copied it for Dave.
At the time of its writing (April 6, 1944) Louis was a reporter for the
Tucson Daily Star.
Anecdotally - at the time of this article Dave was 8 years old. The only
meeting of AA was held at the church he attended. He remembers playing
basketball in the courtyard while the meeting (which he didn't know was AA)
was going on in an adjacent room. Bill W. may have been in that room but
Dave was too young to know it.


Alcoholics Anonymous Here Meet With Chief of Society
By Louis Witzeman

They call him simply “Bill.” He’s the head of Alcoholics Anonymous,
national organization of men and women who were formerly alcohol addicts.
Tall, lanky, with his hair slightly grayed, he looks more like a Texas
cattleman than a Vermonter and an ex-Wall Street broker. One of the
shrewdest of amateur psychologists, he today concludes his visit to Tuscon
as the guest of the Tuscon unit of “AA.”
Bill has led an interesting life. Alcoholics Anonymous – actually there was
no name for the group until 1939 – got its start in 1934 in Akron, Ohio, at
a time when Bill had been pronounced an “incurable alcoholic” by medical
men. He was in Akron on a business trip and had made a failure of it.
After he had been pronounced “incurable” a few months before, he had taken a
hospital “cure” for alcoholism and it had worked for a month. Faced by
failure, Bill saw his “cure” relaxing its hold, just as it had several times
before.

Talked Out Of Binge
Before he lost control of himself, however, he happened to meet an Akron
doctor who was also an alcoholic. The two of them got together and talked
themselves out of going on the binge they had both contemplated. Instead,
they found the release they had sought in trying to stop other alcoholics
from other binges.
They weren’t very successful – Bill says so quite bluntly. In the first
year of their work, the two of them led just five men to recovery, the next
year ten, the next 20 and the next 60. In spite of the fact that he had
been on the receiving end of virtually every sort of cure in existence, Bill
had not found any key to what later developed into his own special knack.
Then, in 1939, he decided to put his ideas on paper. He wrote an anonymous
book, entitled it “Alcoholics Anonymous” and thus founded the organization.
In it he finally found expression of his ideas.

Progress Swift
Once the book was written, progress became swift. Headquarters were
established in New York City and today AA adds approximately 500 members per
month. Thousands write to find out what the group has to offer.
It’s a combination of the attitudes of the preacher, the doctor and the
former alcoholic, he says. He recognizes alcoholism as a disease, one of
which no one can ever be “cured” but from which he can “recover.” Never
when there is a chance of a relapse is there a cure, he says, and any
alcoholic stands a chance of a relapse. An alcoholic can recover by the
change in outlook advocated by the doctors or the faith advocated by the
clergy, Bill says, but it is AA’s job to provide the element which makes the
remedy stick. That element, he says, is simply association with other
alcoholics in “converting” them.

Anonymity Used
Anonymity is the protection that allows a man to try to cure himself of his
addiction, Bill maintains.
He and the Akron doctor together founded their groups on that thesis. In
250 communities they now number 10,000 members. They have chapters in
Canada, Australia, and India in addition to those in the United States.
Traveling service men all over the world spread their work. In New York
City they maintain an office employing four full-time secretaries.
Bill’s salary is paid by a special fund created by John D. Rockefeller which
gives him $30 per week. In addition to this, he makes approximately the
same amount from sales of his books. He and his four secretaries are the
only paid members in the entire organization of 10,000. No chapter pays any
dues for any work other than its own – there are no national dues.

Board of Trustees
A board of trustees composed of seven men manages the organization’s
financial activities in New York. This board is composed of four New York
business men and three former alcoholics. The four business men, with three
of the secretaries, are the only members of the entire group of 10,000 who
are not former alcoholics.
Tuscon’s group is small – now consisting of 14 members. It was formed only
a few years ago. Like all groups of its sort, it permits no use of names of
members. Those interested in its work need simply write to Box 4432,
University Station. All whose names are turned in to the group will be
personally visited by a member of the group. To those interested in being
cured, AA will point out that it can cure 50 per cent of them on the first
try, and 25 per cent on the second. The remainder will either fall out
completely, or be partially cured.
Bill was paying his first visit to Tuscon last night. He came here two days
ago from the Pacific coast, where he was visiting other groups. Last night
he met members of the Tuscon group. Today he goes on eastward with his
wife, planning to visit other towns and other AA units as he goes.

0 -1 0 0
2184 richard johnson
court slips??? Any Info?? court slips??? Any Info?? 2/14/2005 7:36:00 PM

I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in jail
or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704


>
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
>
>
> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2185 John S.
RE: Jim''s insanity... BB Jim''s insanity... BB 2/14/2005 8:39:00 PM

Bob,

That’s an interesting article and one I enjoyed reading, it’s also an
excellent web site I thank you so much for the information; but it doesn’t
address the original question to wit: “Who is ‘Jim’ and what else is known
about the car salesman who used to own the agency he now works for?”

In Love,

John S.

"If you can read this, thank a teacher"
This e-mail scanned by 'Norton' anti-virus software

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:24 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB


http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story

Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another
Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there, plus a
short biography.

Bob S, Richmond, IN




-----Original Message-----
From: lghforum [mailto:lghforum@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:26 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB



A story about Jim - to illustrate a kind of alcoholic thinking
begins on page 35 of my BB. I haven't been able to find out
anything about Jim on any of the websites I have about AA history.
Can any of you help me with additional resouces that might help me
identify "Jim" in this story...
"Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man
has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative
automobile agency. He had a commendable..." (p. 35 AA)

Thanks!

LGH










Yahoo! Groups Links











Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT


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phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1108311394/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kuqjj7d/*http://c
lk.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1108224994734410>


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0 -1 0 0
2186 michael oates
NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS 2/14/2005 6:53:00 PM

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR
HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP

0 -1 0 0
2187 ArtSheehan
Consolidated: Re: Jim''s insanity... BB Consolidated: Re: Jim''s insanity... BB 2/15/2005 10:14:00 AM

(Several replies are consolidated below - Co-Moderator)



From:
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id
=180110428> "lghforum" <lghforum@earthlink.net> Date: Sat Feb 12,
2005 11:06pm
Bob . Thanks! But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the "Jim" who
thinks
".he could take whiskey if only he mixed it with milk!" on page 37 of
the BB 3rd Edition?



From:
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id
=6285566> TBaerMojo@aol.com Date: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:18pm
People in Alcoholics Anonymous West Baltimore Group + A. A. +
alcoholism +
recovery + aa + AA + health. Jim -- listed as 35-7 Ralph F "Jim" car
sales, mixed milk and whiskey



From: <mailto:%22Jay%20Lawyer%22%20%3cejlawyer@midtel.net%3e> "Jay
Lawyer" <ejlawyer@midtel.net> Date: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:40pm
John - Ralph Furlong is the Jim in this little story about a car
salesman. - Jay



From:
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/member_detail?id
=34059972> "Maxwell Clemo" <maxclem@msn.com> Date: Tue Feb 15, 2005
7:02am
Suggest you try this one........Max C.
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell30.html



-----Original Message-----



From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@i...
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/post?postID=VmKW
JL0N8jP8N0V3oCgfwmZWpoT6VnudkxGl7RqHbqevXQ3jbWEkDjHOLaAttUurJnQT-ea017
YaSkJZVwyaSz5ERM_poa0r> ] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Jim's insanity... BB

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm#Another%20Prodigal%20Story

Dear LGH, Please go to the website above and scroll down to "Another
Prodigal Story." By Ralph Furlong. His 1st Edition Story is there,
plus a
short biography. Bob S, Richmond, IN



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2188 Rob White
Re: court slips??? Any Info?? court slips??? Any Info?? 2/15/2005 8:27:00 AM

Court slips started around here (Baltimore) in the 70's when Judge Dave
Bates , a recovering alcoholic, started sending people to AA meetings.
There was a big uproar in the 80's about whether groups should sign
slips .
Most of that has worked itself out. Some do , some don't.

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> hotshots@elltel.net 02/14/05 07:36PM >>>

I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in
jail
or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704


>
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
>
>
> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>






Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2189 Margie Keith
Re: NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS 2/15/2005 9:26:00 AM

Jimmy Kinnon
Wikipedia
Jimmy Kinnon

James P. Kinnon (commonly known as Jimmy Kinnon or "Jimmy K") was the
founder of Narcotics Anonymous (NA), an international association of
recovering drug addicts. During his lifetime, he was usually referred to as
"Jimmy K" due to NA's principle of personal anonymity on the public level.
It appears he never referred to himself as the founder of NA although the
record clearly shows that he played this role.

From the very start, unlike many other attempts to form self-help groups for
drug addicts, Narcotics Anonymous was based on both the Twelve Steps and the
Twelve Traditions devised by Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and adapted to the
specific needs of NA. While there is no official biography of Jimmy Kinnon,
a certain amount of pertinent information can be found on the web and in
print (see links and resources below).

Kinnon was born on 5 April, 1911 in Paisley, Scotland. On 8 August, 1923, he
arrived with his family on Ellis Island, NY. He worked as a roofer,
struggling with his drug addiction until he achieved permanent and complete
abstinence from all drugs in Alcoholics Anonymous on 2 February 1950.

He and a few other drug addicts who had met in AA started holding a series
of independent meetings for drug addicts, beginning 17 August 1953. The
first documented recovery meeting of Narcotics Anonymous was held on 5
October 1953 in Southern California. Today, members of Narcotics Anonymous
hold more than 30,000 weekly meetings in over 100 countries worldwide.

Kinnon is a key figure in the history of Narcotics Anonymous for several
reasons. He wrote several portions of the Little White Booklet, which formed
the basis for NA's basic text, published in 1983 under the title Narcotics
Anonymous (ISBN 0912075023). This book also contains his anonymous
biography, titled We Do Recover. Kinnon also designed the NA logo and served
as the volunteer office manager of NA's World Service Office from the time
it began to 1983.

Kinnon died on 9 July 1985, having spent the last 35 years of his life as a
"clean" and recovering member of Narcotics Anonymous. At the time of his
death, his daring vision of a worldwide autonomous association of recovering
drug addicts had become a reality.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If I ever have an epitaph on my headstone [...] it should read something
like this: All we did was sow some seeds and worked and wrought to make this
work, so that we and others could live -- in Peace, in Freedom and in Love."

James P. Kinnon, 1982

----- Original Message -----
From: michael oates
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:53 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS




DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR
HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP








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0 -1 0 0
2190 timderan
RE: court slips??? Any Info?? court slips??? Any Info?? 2/15/2005 1:18:00 AM

I believe one of the pieces of literature on Corrections work talks about
this.

tmd

-----Original Message-----
From: richard johnson [mailto:hotshots@elltel.net]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 7:36 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] court slips??? Any Info??



I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30 days in jail
or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704


>
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
>
>
> The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the GRAPEVINE
> notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>





Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2191 groovycharacterdefects
Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster 2/15/2005 12:37:00 PM

In a post concerning Ed Webster and his book, "Stools and Bottles,"
I read that one of Ed's other books, "Bar Room Reveries," is very
rare. I have a copy of "Bar Room Reveries," which I read often and
lend to friends. I was wondering if the book is valuable or
historically significant? If it is historically important, I'll be
much more careful with it in the future, to ensure preservation.

Thanks for your time
& Kind Regards,
Brian

0 -1 0 0
2192 Jim Blair
NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954 NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954 2/15/2005 4:34:00 PM

These Drug Addicts

Cure One Another



By Jerome Ellison


A new approach to a tragic social problem - drug addiction - has
been found by the ex-addicts of Narcotics Anonymous. Here's how they help users
out of their horrible habit - as in the case of the mining engineer, the hot
musician, the minister and the movie actor.







Tom, a young musician just out of a job on a big-name dance band,
was pouring out the story of his heroin addiction to a small gathering in a New
York City Y.M.C.A. He told how he started three years ago, "fooling around for
thrills, never dreaming to get a habit." His band went on the road. One night in
Philadelphia he ran out of his drug and became so shaky he couldn't play. It was
the first time the band management knew of his habit. He was promptly sent home.

"Music business is getting tough with junkies," Tom said.

His audience was sympathetic. It was composed of former drug addicts
who had found freedom from addiction. They met twice weekly to make this freedom
secure, and worked to help other addicts achieve it. The New York group, founded
in 1950 and called Narcotics Anonymous, is one of several which have been piling
up evidence that the methods of Alcoholics Anonymous can help release people
from other drugs than alcohol - drugs such as opium, heroin, morphine and the
barbiturates.

The groups enter a field where patients are many and cures few. The
population addicted to opiates has been placed by competent but incompatible
authorities at 60,000 and at 180,000. The Federal Bureau of Narcotics estimates
that the traffic in illegal opium derivatives grosses $275,000,000 a year. About
1000 people a month are arrested for violation of Federal, state or local laws
regulating the opiates. Addiction to the barbiturates, it is believed, involves
more people. There are some 1500 known compounds of barbituric acid, some of
them having pharmaceutical names and others street names such as yellow jacket,
red devil and goofball.

Addicts work up to doses sufficient to kill a non-addicted person or
an addict with a lesser tolerance. In New York recently, three young addicts met
and took equal portions of heroin. Two felt no unusual reactions; the third went
into convulsions and in a few hours was dead. Many barbiturate users daily
consume quantities, which would be lethal to a normal person. Others have
demonstrated an ability to use barbiturates for years, under medical
supervision, without raising their consumption to dangerous levels.

The drug addict, like the alcoholic, has long been an enigma to
those who want to help him. Real contact is most likely to be made, on a
principle demonstrated with phenomenal success by Alcoholics Anonymous, by
another addict. Does the prospect, writhing with shame, confess to pilfering
from his wife's purse to buy drugs? His sponsor once took his children's lunch
money. Did he steal the black bag of a loyal family doctor? As a ruse to
flimflam druggists, his new friend once impersonated a doctor for several
months. The N.A. member first shares his shame with the newcomer. Then he shares
his hope and finally, sometimes, his recovery.

To date, the A.A. type of group therapy has been an effective
ingredient of "cures" - the word as used here means no drugs for a year or more
and an intent of permanent abstinence. - in at least 200 cases. Some of these,
including Dan, the founder of the New York group, had been pronounced medically
hopeless. The "Narco" Group in the United States Public Health Service Hospital
at Lexington, Kentucky, has a transient membership of about eighty men and women
patients. The group mails a monthly newsletter, The Key, free to those who want
it, currently a list of 500 names. Many of these are interested but
nonaddicted friends. Most are "mail-order members" of the group-addicts who have
left the hospital and been without drugs for periods ranging from a few weeks to
several years. The H.F.D. (Habit Forming Drug) Group is a loosely affiliated
fellowship of California ex-addicts who keep "clean" - the addicts term for a
state of abstinence- by attending Alcoholics Anonymous meetings with volunteer
A.A. sponsors. The Federal prison at Lorton, Virginia, has a prisoner group
which attracts thirty men to its weekly meetings. Narcotics Anonymous in New
York is the sole "free world"-outside of institution-group which conducts its
own weekly open-to-the-public meetings in the A.A. tradition.

Today's groups of former addicts mark the convergence of two
historic narratives, one having to do with alcohol, the other with opium.
References to the drug of the poppies go back to 4000 B.C. According to Homer,
Helen of Troy used it in a beverage guaranteed to abolish care. Opium was
employed to quiet noisy children as early as 1552 B.C. De Quincy and Coleridge
are among the famous men to whom it brought disaster. In its dual role it
appears today, through its derivatives, as the friend of man in surgery and his
enemy in addiction.

The alcoholic strand of the story may be taken up in the Zurich
office of the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, one day late in 1933. At that time
the eminent doctor was obliged to impart an unpleasant bit of news to one of his
patients, an American businessman who had come for help with a desperate
drinking problem. After months of effort and repeated relapses, the doctor
admitted that his treatment had been a failure.

"Is there, then," the patient asked, "no hope?" Only if a profound
religious experience were undergone, he was told. How, he wanted to know, could
such an experience be had? It could not be obtained on order, the doctor said,
but if one associated with religious-minded people for a while _______



Narcotics Anonymous - A.A.'s Young Brother



The American interested himself in Frank Buchman's Oxford Group,
found sobriety, and told an inebriate friend of his experience. The friend
sobered up and took the message to a former drinking partner, a New York
stockbroker named Bill. Though he was an agnostic who had never had much use for
religion, Bill sobered up. Late in 1935, while on a business trip to Akron,
Ohio, he was struck by the thought that he wouldn't be able to keep his sobriety
unless he passed on the message. He sought out a heavy drinking local surgeon
named Bob and told him the story to date. They sat down and formulated a program
for staying sober-a program featuring twelve Suggested Steps and called
Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill devoted full time to carrying the A.A. message, and
the news spread. The now-famous article by Jack Alexander in The Saturday
Evening Post of March 1, 1941, made it nationally known, and by 1944 there were
A.A. groups in the major cities.

In June of that year an inebriate mining engineer whom we'll call
Houston "hit bottom" with his drinking in Montgomery, Alabama, and the local
A.A.'s dried him up. Houston gobbled the A.A. program and began helping other
alcoholics. One of the drunks he worked with-a sales executive who can be called
Harry-was involved not only with alcohol but also morphine. A.A. took care of
the alcoholic factor, but left Harry's drug habit unchanged. Interested and
baffled, Houston watched his new friend struggle in his strange self-constructed
trap.

The opiate theme of the narrative now reappears. Harry's pattern had
been to get roaring drunk, take morphine to avoid a hang-over, get drunk again
and take morphine again. Thus he became "hooked"-addicted. He drove through a
red light one day and was stopped by a policeman. The officer found morphine and
turned him over to Federal jurisdiction, with the result that Harry spent
twenty-seven months at Lexington, where both voluntary and involuntary patients
are accommodated, as a prisoner. After his discharge he met Houston and, through
A.A., found relief from the booze issue. The drug problem continued to plague
him.

During this period, Houston, through one of those coincidences which
A.A.'s like to attribute to a Higher Power, was transferred by his employers to
Frankfort, Kentucky, just a few miles from Lexington. "Harry's troubles kept
jumping through my brain," Houston says. "I was convinced that the twelve
Suggested Steps would work as well for drugs as for alcohol if conscientiously
applied. One day I called on Dr. V.H. Vogel, the medical officer then in charge
at Lexington. I told him of our work with Harry and offered to assist in
starting a group in the hospital. Doctor Vogel accepted the offer and on Feb.
16, 1947, the first meeting was held. Weekly meetings have been going on ever
since."



The Phenomenon of "Physical Dependence"



Some months later, in a strangely woven web of coincidence, Harry
reappeared at "Narco" as a voluntary patient and began attending meetings. He
was discharged, relapsed, and in short time was back again. "This time," he
says, "it clicked." He has now been free from both alcohol and drugs for more
than five years. Twice he has returned to tell his story at meetings, in the
A.A. tradition of passing on the good word.

In the fall of 1948 there arrived at Lexington an addict named Dan
who had been there before. It was, in fact, his seventh trip; the doctors
assumed that he'd continue his periodic visits until he died. This same Dan
later founded the small but significant Narcotics Anonymous group in New York.
Dan's personal history is the story of an apparently incurable addict apparently
cured.

An emotionally unsettled childhood is the rule among addicts, and
Dan's childhood follows the pattern. His mother died when he was three years
old, his father when he was four. He was adopted by a spinster physician and
spent his boyhood with his foster mother, a resident doctor in a Kansas City
hospital, and with her relatives in Missouri and Illinois. When he was sixteen
he developed an ear ailment and was given opiates to relieve the pain. During
and after an operation to correct the condition he received frequent morphine
injections. Enjoying the mood of easy, floating forgetfulness they induced, he
malingered.

Living in a large hospital gave Dan opportunities to pilfer drugs,
and for six months he managed keep himself regularly supplied. An addict at the
hospital taught him how to inject himself, so for a time he was able to
recapture the mood at will. He was embarrassing his foster mother
professionally, however, and though not yet acknowledging the fact to himself,
was becoming known locally as an addict. Sources of drugs began to close up, and
one day there was no morphine to be had. He went into an uncontrollable panic
which grew worse each hour.

There followed muscular cramps, diarrhea, a freely running nose, tears gushing
from his eyes, and two sleepless, terror-filled days and nights. It was Dan's
first experience with the mysterious withdrawal sickness which is experienced
sooner or later by every addict.

In one of the strangest phenomena known to medicine, the body
adjusts to the invasion of certain drugs, altering its chemistry in a few weeks
to a basis-called "physical dependence"-on which it can no longer function
properly without the drug. How physical dependence differs from habit may be
illustrated by imagining a habitual gum chewer deprived of gum. His unease would
be due to the denial of habit. If he were denied gum and also water, on which he
is physically dependent, he'd feel an increasingly painful craving called
thirst. The drug addict's craving is called the "abstinence syndrome," or
withdrawal sickness. In extreme cases it includes everything Dan experienced,
plus hallucinations and convulsions. Withdrawal of opiates rarely causes the
death of a healthy person; sudden cessation of barbiturates has been known to.
The violent phase, which is usually over in two to three days, may under expert
care be largely avoided. Physical dependence gradually diminishes and ordinary
habit, of the gum-chewing type, asserts itself.

This is the interval of greatest vulner-ability, N.A. members say,
to the addict's inevitable good resolutions. He has formed the habit of using
his drugs when he feels low. If he breaks off medical supervision before he is
physically and medically back to par, the temptation to relapse may be
overwhelming. It is in this period, Dan says, that the addict most needs the
kind of understanding he finds in N.A. If he yields to the call of habit,
physical dependence is quickly reestablished and his body calls for ever greater
doses as the price of peace.

Dan went through the cycle dozens of times. Besides the half dozen
withdrawals at Lexington, there were several at city and state institutions, and
numerous attempts at self-withdrawal. He tried sudden and complete abstinence,
the "cold-turkey" method. He tried relieving the withdrawal pangs with alcohol,
and found it only cancelled out his ability to think, so he automatically
returned to drugs. When he attempted withdrawal with barbiturates he "just about
went goofy."

All this, however, was to come later; in his early twenties he had
no intention of giving up the use of drugs. Having been spotted as an addict in
the Kansas City area, he sought fresh fields. He found a job as a salesman and
traveled several Midwest states. The demands of his habit and his scrapes with
the law made it hard to hold a job long. Drifting from one employment to
another, he found himself, in the early 1930's in Brooklyn.

His attempts at withdrawal resulted in several extended periods of
abstinence, the longest of which was three years. When off drugs Dan was an able
sales executive and a good provider. He married a Staten Island girl. They had a
son. Dan continued to have short relapses, however. Each new one put a further
strain on the family tie. For a time, to save money for drugs, he used slugs in
the subway turnstiles going to and from work. He was spotted by a subway
detective and spent two days in jail. A month later he was caught passing a
forged morphine prescription. As a result, he was among the first prisoner
patients at the new United States Public Health Service Hospital for addicts at
Lexington, when it was opened on May 28, 1935.

After a year there, he made a supreme effort to be rid of drugs for
good. To keep away from the temptations offered by New York drug pushers he
found a job with a large Midwest dairy. He worked hard, saved his money and sent
for his family. By this time, however, it was too late; his wife refused to
come, and a divorce action was begun. "Her rebuff gave me what I thought was a
good excuse to go back on drugs," Dan reports. After that, his deterioration
accelerated. On his seventh trip to Lexington, in 1948, he was in a profound
depression.

After a month of sullen silence, he began attending the group
meetings, which were a new feature at the hospital since his last trip. "I still
wouldn't talk," he reports, "But I did some listening. I was impressed by what
Houston had to say. Harry came back one time and told us his story. For the
first time, I began to pray. I was only praying that I would die, but at least
it was a prayer," He did not die, nor did he recover. Within six months of his
discharge he was found in possession of drugs and sent back to Lexington for a
year-his eighth and, as it turned out, final trip.

"This time things were different," he says. "Everything Houston and
Harry had been saying suddenly made sense. There was a lawyer from a Southern
city there at the time, and a Midwestern surgeon. They were in the same mood I
was-disgusted with themselves and really ready to change. The three of us used
to have long talks with Houston every Saturday morning, besides the regular
meetings." All three recently celebrated the fifth anniversary of their
emancipation from the drug habit.

Dan, conscious of what seemed to him a miraculous change of
attitude, returned to New York full of enthusiasm and hope. The twelfth of the
Suggested Steps was to pass on the message to others who needed help. He
proposed to form the first outside-of-institution group and call it Narcotics
Anonymous-N.A. He contacted other Lexington alumni and suggested they start
weekly meetings.

There were certain difficulties. Addicts are not outstandingly
gregarious, and when all the excuses were in only three-a house painter named
Charlie, a barber named Henry and a waiter we'll call George-were on hand for
the first meeting. There was uncertainty about where this would be; nobody it
seemed wanted the addicts around. Besides, missionary, or "twelfth step," work
of the new group would be hampered by the law. When the A.A. member is on an
errand of mercy he can, if occasion warrants, administer appropriate "medicine"
to stave off shakes or delirium long enough to talk a little sense into the
prospect. If the N.A. member did so, he'd risk a long term in jail. Drug
peddlers were not enthusiastic about the new venture. Rumors were circulating
discrediting the group.

Out of the gloom, however, came unexpected rays of friendliness and
help. The Salvation Army made room for meetings at its 46th Street cafeteria.
Later the McBurney Y.M.C.A., on 23rd Street, offered a meeting room. Two doctors
backed their oral support by sending patients to meetings. Two other doctors
agreed to serve on an advisory board.

There were slips and backslidings. Meetings were sometimes marred by
obstinacy and temper. But three of the original four remained faithful and the
group slowly grew. Difficult matters of policy were worked out by trial and
error. Some members once thought that a satisfactory withdrawal could be made at
home. Some hard nights were endured and it was concluded that the doctors were
right-for a proper drug withdrawal institutional care is necessary. Addicts are
not admitted to meetings while using drugs. Newcomers are advised to make their
withdrawal first, then come to N.A. to learn to live successfully without drugs.

Group statisticians estimate that 5000 inquiries have been answered,
constituting a heavy drain on the group's treasury. Some 600 addicts have
attended one or more meetings, 90 have attained effective living without drugs.
One of these is a motion picture celebrity, now doing well on his own. One
relapse after the first exposure to N.A. principles seems to have been about
par, though a number have not found this necessary. "A key fact of which few
addicts are aware," Dan says, "is that once he's been addicted, a person can
never again take even one dose of any habit-forming drug, including alcohol and
the barbiturates, without running into trouble."

The weekly "open"-to the public-meetings are attended by ten to
thirty persons-addicts, their friends and families and concerned outsiders. The
room is small and, on Friday evenings when more than twenty-five turn up,
crowded.

There is an interval of chitchat and visiting, and then, about nine
o'clock, the secretary, a Brooklyn housewife, mother and department -store
cashier, opens the meeting. In this ceremony all repeat the well-known prayer:
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to
change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." The secretary
then introduces a leader-a member who presents the speakers and renders
interlocutor's comments from his own experience with a drugless life. The
speakers-traditionally two in an evening-describe their adventures with drugs
and with N.A. In two months of meetings I heard a score of these case histories.
I also charted the progress of a newcomer, the young musician named Tom, whose
first N.A. meeting coincided with my own first reportorial visit.

Within the undeviating certainties of addiction, individual
histories reveal a wide assortment of personal variations. Harold, an
optometrist, is a "medical" addict; he got his habit from the prescription pad
of a doctor who was treating him for osteomyelitis. An outspoken advocate of
psychotherapy for all, Harold absorbs a certain amount of ribbing as the groups
"psychiatric salesman." Florence, the housewife-cashier-secretary, recently
celebrated her first anniversary of freedom from morphine, which she first
received twenty-five years ago in a prescription for the relief of menstrual
cramps. Carl, an electrician, became interested in the effects of opium smoke
thirty years ago, and reached a point where he could not function without his
daily pipe. He eventually switched to heroin and his troubles multiplied.

Manny, an executive in a high-pressure advertising agency, and
Marian, a registered nurse with heavy administrative responsibilities began
using morphine to relieve fatigue. Don, Marian's husband, regards alcohol as his
main addictive drug, but had a bad brush with self-prescribed barbiturates
before he came to A.A. and then, with Marian, to N.A. Pat, another young
advertising man, nearly died of poisoning from the barbiturates to which he had
become heavily addicted. Harold and Carl have now been four years without drugs;
Manny, three; Marian, Don and Pat, one.

Perhaps a third of the membership are graduates of the teen-age
heroin fad which swept our larger cities a few years ago, and which still enjoys
as much of a vogue as dope peddlers can promote among the present teen-age
population. Rita, an attractive daughter of Spanish-American Harlem, was one of
the group's first members. Along with a number of her classmates, she began by
smoking marihuana cigarettes-a typical introduction to drugs-then took heroin
"for thrills." She used the drug four years, became desperately ill, went to
Lexington and has now been free of the habit four years. Fred, a war hero,
became a heroin addict because he wanted friends. In the teen-age gang to which
he aspired, being hooked was a badge of distinction. He sought out the pusher
who frequented the vicinity of his high school and got hooked. There followed
seven miserable and dangerous years, two of them in combat and one in a
veteran's hospital. In December of 1953 he came to N.A. and, he says, "really
found friends."

Lawrence's story is the happiest of all. He came to N.A. early in
his first addiction, just out of high school, just married, thoroughly alarmed
at discovering he was addicted, and desperately seeking a way out. N.A. friends
recommended that he get "blue-grassed," an arrangement by which a patient may
commit himself under a local statute to remain at Lexington 135 days for what
the doctors consider a really adequate treatment. He attended meetings in the
hospital and more meetings when he got home. Now happy and grateful, he thanks
N.A. His boss recently presented him with a promotion; his wife recently
presented him with a son.

Besides the Friday open meeting there is a Tuesday closed meeting at
the Y for addicts only. As a special dispensation I was permitted to attend a
closed meeting, the purpose of which is to discuss the daily application of the
twelve steps.

The step under discussion the night I was there was No.4:"Make a
searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." The point was raised as to
whether this step might degenerate into self-recrimination and do more harm than
good. Old-timers asserted that this was not the proper application. A life of
drug addiction, they said, often built up an abnormal load of guilt and fear,
which could become so oppressive as to threaten a relapse unless dealt with.
When the addict used step 4 honestly to face up to his past, guilt and fear
diminished and he could make constructive plans for his future.

The Narco meetings at Lexington have borne other fruit. There was
Charlie, the young GI from Washington, D.C., who once looted first-aid kits in
the gun tubs of a Navy transport en route to the Philippines and took his first
morphine out of sheer curiosity. After his Army discharge his curiosity led him
to heroin and several bad years; then to Lexington, where the Narco Group struck
a spark. He heard about Dan's work, went to New York to see him, and on his
return to Washington looked around to see what he could do. He discovered that
there was a concentration of addicts in the Federal penitentiary at Lorton,
Virginia. Working with Alcoholics Anonymous, which already had meetings in the
prison, he obtained permission to start a group like the one at Lexington. Now a
year old, these meetings, called the Notrol Group- Lorton backward-attract the
regular attendance of about thirty addicts. Washington has no free-world group,
but Charlie helps a lot of addicts on an individual basis, steering them to A.A.
meetings for doctrine.

Friendliness of ex-drug addicts with former devotees of alcohol
sometimes occurs, though Bill, the same who figured so prominently in A.A.'s
founding, says a fraternal attitude cannot be depended upon. The average A.A.,
he says, would merely look blank if asked about drug addiction, and rightly
reply that this specialty is outside his understanding. There are, however, a
few A.A.'s who have been addicted both to alcohol and drugs, and these sometimes
function as "bridge members."

"If the addict substitutes the word 'drugs' whenever he hears
'alcohol' in the A.A. program, he'll be helped," Houston says. Many ex-addicts,
in the larger population centers where meetings run to attendances of hundreds,
attend A.A. meetings. The H.F.D. (Habit-Forming Drug) Group, which is activated
by an energetic ex-addict and ex-alcoholic of the Los Angeles area named Betty,
has dozens of members, but no meeting of its own. Individual ex-addicts who are
"making it" the A.A. way include a minister in a South-eastern state, a
politician in the deep South, a motion-picture mogul in California and an
eminent surgeon of an Eastern city. The role call of ex-addict groups is small.
There is the parent Narco Group, Addicts Anonymous, P.O. Box 2000, Lexington,
KY; Narcotics Anonymous, P.O. Box 3, Village Station, New York 14, N.Y.; Notrol
Group, c/o U.S. Penitentiary, Lorton, Va.; H.D.F. Group, c/o Secretary, Bay Area
Rehabilitation Center, 1458 26th St., Santa Monica, Calif.

A frequent and relevant question asked by the casually interested
is, "But I thought habit-forming drugs were illegal-where do they get the
stuff?" The answer involves an interesting bit of history explaining how opiates
come to be illegal. In the early 1800's doctors used them freely to treat the
innumerable ills then lumped under the heading, "nervousness." Hypodermic
injection of morphine was introduced in 1856. By 1880, opium and morphine
preparations were common drugstore items. An 1882 survey estimated that 1 per
cent of the population was addicted, and the public became alarmed. A wave of
legislation swept the country, beginning in 1885 with an Ohio statute and
culminating in the Federal Harrison Narcotic Law of 1914. Immediately after the
passage of this prohibitory law, prices of opium, morphine and heroin soared. A
fantastically profitable black market developed. Today, $3000 worth of heroin
purchased abroad brings $300,000 when finally cut, packaged and sold in America.

Among the judges, social workers and doctors with whom I talked
there is a growing feeling that the Harrison Act needs to be re-examined. Dr.
Hubert S. Howe, a former Columbia professor of neurology and authority on
narcotics, says the statute, like the Volstead Act, "removed the traffic in
narcotic drugs from lawful hands and gave it to criminals." In an address before
the New York State Medical Society he asserted that the financial props could be
knocked from the illegal industry by minor revisions of present laws and
rulings, with no risk of addiction becoming more widespread. Doctor Howe
proposes a system of regulation similar to that of the United Kingdom, which
reports only 364 addicts.

Meanwhile the lot of those who become involved with what our British
cousins rightly call "dangerous drugs" is grim. It is just slightly less grim
than it might have been five years ago. Since then a few addicts have found a
way back from the nightmare alleys of addiction to a normal life which may seem
humdrum enough at times, but which when lost, then regained, is found to be a
glory.





Source: The Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2193 Mel Barger
Re: NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954 NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954 2/15/2005 2:18:00 PM

Hi Folks,
It was a pleasant surprise to receive the Saturday Evening Post article on
Narcotics Anonymous authored by Jerome Ellison, whom we called Jerry. Jerry
wrote a very nice spiritual biography called "Report to the Creator" which
detailed his own drinking life and recovery. I visited him once in his home
in Guilford, Connecticut. He was also the author of "Twelve Steps and the
Older Member," a Grapevine series which he later published privately as a
book.
He passed away many years ago, but did stay sober all his life.
Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesstoledo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NA History -Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954


>
> These Drug Addicts
>
> Cure One Another
>
>
>
> By Jerome Ellison
>
>
> A new approach to a tragic social problem - drug addiction -
> has been found by the ex-addicts of Narcotics Anonymous. Here's how they
> help users out of their horrible habit - as in the case of the mining
> engineer, the hot musician, the minister and the movie actor.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tom, a young musician just out of a job on a big-name dance
> band, was pouring out the story of his heroin addiction to a small
> gathering in a New York City Y.M.C.A. He told how he started three years
> ago, "fooling around for thrills, never dreaming to get a habit." His band
> went on the road. One night in Philadelphia he ran out of his drug and
> became so shaky he couldn't play. It was the first time the band
> management knew of his habit. He was promptly sent home.
>
> "Music business is getting tough with junkies," Tom said.
>
> His audience was sympathetic. It was composed of former drug
> addicts who had found freedom from addiction. They met twice weekly to
> make this freedom secure, and worked to help other addicts achieve it. The
> New York group, founded in 1950 and called Narcotics Anonymous, is one of
> several which have been piling up evidence that the methods of Alcoholics
> Anonymous can help release people from other drugs than alcohol - drugs
> such as opium, heroin, morphine and the barbiturates.
>
> The groups enter a field where patients are many and cures few.
> The population addicted to opiates has been placed by competent but
> incompatible authorities at 60,000 and at 180,000. The Federal Bureau of
> Narcotics estimates that the traffic in illegal opium derivatives grosses
> $275,000,000 a year. About 1000 people a month are arrested for violation
> of Federal, state or local laws regulating the opiates. Addiction to the
> barbiturates, it is believed, involves more people. There are some 1500
> known compounds of barbituric acid, some of them having pharmaceutical
> names and others street names such as yellow jacket, red devil and
> goofball.
>
> Addicts work up to doses sufficient to kill a non-addicted
> person or an addict with a lesser tolerance. In New York recently, three
> young addicts met and took equal portions of heroin. Two felt no unusual
> reactions; the third went into convulsions and in a few hours was dead.
> Many barbiturate users daily consume quantities, which would be lethal to
> a normal person. Others have demonstrated an ability to use barbiturates
> for years, under medical supervision, without raising their consumption to
> dangerous levels.
>
> The drug addict, like the alcoholic, has long been an enigma to
> those who want to help him. Real contact is most likely to be made, on a
> principle demonstrated with phenomenal success by Alcoholics Anonymous, by
> another addict. Does the prospect, writhing with shame, confess to
> pilfering from his wife's purse to buy drugs? His sponsor once took his
> children's lunch money. Did he steal the black bag of a loyal family
> doctor? As a ruse to flimflam druggists, his new friend once impersonated
> a doctor for several months. The N.A. member first shares his shame with
> the newcomer. Then he shares his hope and finally, sometimes, his
> recovery.
>
> To date, the A.A. type of group therapy has been an effective
> ingredient of "cures" - the word as used here means no drugs for a year or
> more and an intent of permanent abstinence. - in at least 200 cases. Some
> of these, including Dan, the founder of the New York group, had been
> pronounced medically hopeless. The "Narco" Group in the United States
> Public Health Service Hospital at Lexington, Kentucky, has a transient
> membership of about eighty men and women patients. The group mails a
> monthly newsletter, The Key, free to those who want it, currently a list
> of 500 names. Many of these are interested but nonaddicted
> friends. Most are "mail-order members" of the group-addicts who have left
> the hospital and been without drugs for periods ranging from a few weeks
> to several years. The H.F.D. (Habit Forming Drug) Group is a loosely
> affiliated fellowship of California ex-addicts who keep "clean" - the
> addicts term for a state of abstinence- by attending Alcoholics Anonymous
> meetings with volunteer A.A. sponsors. The Federal prison at Lorton,
> Virginia, has a prisoner group which attracts thirty men to its weekly
> meetings. Narcotics Anonymous in New York is the sole "free world"-outside
> of institution-group which conducts its own weekly open-to-the-public
> meetings in the A.A. tradition.
>
> Today's groups of former addicts mark the convergence of two
> historic narratives, one having to do with alcohol, the other with opium.
> References to the drug of the poppies go back to 4000 B.C. According to
> Homer, Helen of Troy used it in a beverage guaranteed to abolish care.
> Opium was employed to quiet noisy children as early as 1552 B.C. De Quincy
> and Coleridge are among the famous men to whom it brought disaster. In its
> dual role it appears today, through its derivatives, as the friend of man
> in surgery and his enemy in addiction.
>
> The alcoholic strand of the story may be taken up in the Zurich
> office of the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, one day late in 1933. At that
> time the eminent doctor was obliged to impart an unpleasant bit of news to
> one of his patients, an American businessman who had come for help with a
> desperate drinking problem. After months of effort and repeated relapses,
> the doctor admitted that his treatment had been a failure.
>
> "Is there, then," the patient asked, "no hope?" Only if a
> profound religious experience were undergone, he was told. How, he wanted
> to know, could such an experience be had? It could not be obtained on
> order, the doctor said, but if one associated with religious-minded people
> for a while _______
>
>
>
> Narcotics Anonymous - A.A.'s Young Brother
>
>
>
> The American interested himself in Frank Buchman's Oxford
> Group, found sobriety, and told an inebriate friend of his experience. The
> friend sobered up and took the message to a former drinking partner, a New
> York stockbroker named Bill. Though he was an agnostic who had never had
> much use for religion, Bill sobered up. Late in 1935, while on a business
> trip to Akron, Ohio, he was struck by the thought that he wouldn't be able
> to keep his sobriety unless he passed on the message. He sought out a
> heavy drinking local surgeon named Bob and told him the story to date.
> They sat down and formulated a program for staying sober-a program
> featuring twelve Suggested Steps and called Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill
> devoted full time to carrying the A.A. message, and the news spread. The
> now-famous article by Jack Alexander in The Saturday Evening Post of March
> 1, 1941, made it nationally known, and by 1944 there were A.A. groups in
> the major cities.
>
> In June of that year an inebriate mining engineer whom we'll
> call Houston "hit bottom" with his drinking in Montgomery, Alabama, and
> the local A.A.'s dried him up. Houston gobbled the A.A. program and began
> helping other alcoholics. One of the drunks he worked with-a sales
> executive who can be called Harry-was involved not only with alcohol but
> also morphine. A.A. took care of the alcoholic factor, but left Harry's
> drug habit unchanged. Interested and baffled, Houston watched his new
> friend struggle in his strange self-constructed trap.
>
> The opiate theme of the narrative now reappears. Harry's
> pattern had been to get roaring drunk, take morphine to avoid a hang-over,
> get drunk again and take morphine again. Thus he became "hooked"-addicted.
> He drove through a red light one day and was stopped by a policeman. The
> officer found morphine and turned him over to Federal jurisdiction, with
> the result that Harry spent twenty-seven months at Lexington, where both
> voluntary and involuntary patients are accommodated, as a prisoner. After
> his discharge he met Houston and, through A.A., found relief from the
> booze issue. The drug problem continued to plague him.
>
> During this period, Houston, through one of those coincidences
> which A.A.'s like to attribute to a Higher Power, was transferred by his
> employers to Frankfort, Kentucky, just a few miles from Lexington.
> "Harry's troubles kept jumping through my brain," Houston says. "I was
> convinced that the twelve Suggested Steps would work as well for drugs as
> for alcohol if conscientiously applied. One day I called on Dr. V.H.
> Vogel, the medical officer then in charge at Lexington. I told him of our
> work with Harry and offered to assist in starting a group in the hospital.
> Doctor Vogel accepted the offer and on Feb. 16, 1947, the first meeting
> was held. Weekly meetings have been going on ever since."
>
>
>
> The Phenomenon of "Physical Dependence"
>
>
>
> Some months later, in a strangely woven web of coincidence,
> Harry reappeared at "Narco" as a voluntary patient and began attending
> meetings. He was discharged, relapsed, and in short time was back again.
> "This time," he says, "it clicked." He has now been free from both alcohol
> and drugs for more than five years. Twice he has returned to tell his
> story at meetings, in the A.A. tradition of passing on the good word.
>
> In the fall of 1948 there arrived at Lexington an addict named
> Dan who had been there before. It was, in fact, his seventh trip; the
> doctors assumed that he'd continue his periodic visits until he died. This
> same Dan later founded the small but significant Narcotics Anonymous group
> in New York. Dan's personal history is the story of an apparently
> incurable addict apparently cured.
>
> An emotionally unsettled childhood is the rule among addicts,
> and Dan's childhood follows the pattern. His mother died when he was three
> years old, his father when he was four. He was adopted by a spinster
> physician and spent his boyhood with his foster mother, a resident doctor
> in a Kansas City hospital, and with her relatives in Missouri and
> Illinois. When he was sixteen he developed an ear ailment and was given
> opiates to relieve the pain. During and after an operation to correct the
> condition he received frequent morphine injections. Enjoying the mood of
> easy, floating forgetfulness they induced, he malingered.
>
> Living in a large hospital gave Dan opportunities to pilfer
> drugs, and for six months he managed keep himself regularly supplied. An
> addict at the hospital taught him how to inject himself, so for a time he
> was able to recapture the mood at will. He was embarrassing his foster
> mother professionally, however, and though not yet acknowledging the fact
> to himself, was becoming known locally as an addict. Sources of drugs
> began to close up, and one day there was no morphine to be had. He went
> into an uncontrollable panic which grew worse each hour.
>
> There followed muscular cramps, diarrhea, a freely running nose, tears
> gushing from his eyes, and two sleepless, terror-filled days and nights.
> It was Dan's first experience with the mysterious withdrawal sickness
> which is experienced sooner or later by every addict.
>
> In one of the strangest phenomena known to medicine, the body
> adjusts to the invasion of certain drugs, altering its chemistry in a few
> weeks to a basis-called "physical dependence"-on which it can no longer
> function properly without the drug. How physical dependence differs from
> habit may be illustrated by imagining a habitual gum chewer deprived of
> gum. His unease would be due to the denial of habit. If he were denied gum
> and also water, on which he is physically dependent, he'd feel an
> increasingly painful craving called thirst. The drug addict's craving is
> called the "abstinence syndrome," or withdrawal sickness. In extreme cases
> it includes everything Dan experienced, plus hallucinations and
> convulsions. Withdrawal of opiates rarely causes the death of a healthy
> person; sudden cessation of barbiturates has been known to. The violent
> phase, which is usually over in two to three days, may under expert care
> be largely avoided. Physical dependence gradually diminishes and ordinary
> habit, of the gum-chewing type, asserts itself.
>
> This is the interval of greatest vulner-ability, N.A. members
> say, to the addict's inevitable good resolutions. He has formed the habit
> of using his drugs when he feels low. If he breaks off medical supervision
> before he is physically and medically back to par, the temptation to
> relapse may be overwhelming. It is in this period, Dan says, that the
> addict most needs the kind of understanding he finds in N.A. If he yields
> to the call of habit, physical dependence is quickly reestablished and his
> body calls for ever greater doses as the price of peace.
>
> Dan went through the cycle dozens of times. Besides the half
> dozen withdrawals at Lexington, there were several at city and state
> institutions, and numerous attempts at self-withdrawal. He tried sudden
> and complete abstinence, the "cold-turkey" method. He tried relieving the
> withdrawal pangs with alcohol, and found it only cancelled out his ability
> to think, so he automatically returned to drugs. When he attempted
> withdrawal with barbiturates he "just about went goofy."
>
> All this, however, was to come later; in his early twenties he
> had no intention of giving up the use of drugs. Having been spotted as an
> addict in the Kansas City area, he sought fresh fields. He found a job as
> a salesman and traveled several Midwest states. The demands of his habit
> and his scrapes with the law made it hard to hold a job long. Drifting
> from one employment to another, he found himself, in the early 1930's in
> Brooklyn.
>
> His attempts at withdrawal resulted in several extended periods
> of abstinence, the longest of which was three years. When off drugs Dan
> was an able sales executive and a good provider. He married a Staten
> Island girl. They had a son. Dan continued to have short relapses,
> however. Each new one put a further strain on the family tie. For a time,
> to save money for drugs, he used slugs in the subway turnstiles going to
> and from work. He was spotted by a subway detective and spent two days in
> jail. A month later he was caught passing a forged morphine prescription.
> As a result, he was among the first prisoner patients at the new United
> States Public Health Service Hospital for addicts at Lexington, when it
> was opened on May 28, 1935.
>
> After a year there, he made a supreme effort to be rid of drugs
> for good. To keep away from the temptations offered by New York drug
> pushers he found a job with a large Midwest dairy. He worked hard, saved
> his money and sent for his family. By this time, however, it was too late;
> his wife refused to come, and a divorce action was begun. "Her rebuff gave
> me what I thought was a good excuse to go back on drugs," Dan reports.
> After that, his deterioration accelerated. On his seventh trip to
> Lexington, in 1948, he was in a profound depression.
>
> After a month of sullen silence, he began attending the group
> meetings, which were a new feature at the hospital since his last trip. "I
> still wouldn't talk," he reports, "But I did some listening. I was
> impressed by what Houston had to say. Harry came back one time and told us
> his story. For the first time, I began to pray. I was only praying that I
> would die, but at least it was a prayer," He did not die, nor did he
> recover. Within six months of his discharge he was found in possession of
> drugs and sent back to Lexington for a year-his eighth and, as it turned
> out, final trip.
>
> "This time things were different," he says. "Everything Houston
> and Harry had been saying suddenly made sense. There was a lawyer from a
> Southern city there at the time, and a Midwestern surgeon. They were in
> the same mood I was-disgusted with themselves and really ready to change.
> The three of us used to have long talks with Houston every Saturday
> morning, besides the regular meetings." All three recently celebrated the
> fifth anniversary of their emancipation from the drug habit.
>
> Dan, conscious of what seemed to him a miraculous change of
> attitude, returned to New York full of enthusiasm and hope. The twelfth of
> the Suggested Steps was to pass on the message to others who needed help.
> He proposed to form the first outside-of-institution group and call it
> Narcotics Anonymous-N.A. He contacted other Lexington alumni and suggested
> they start weekly meetings.
>
> There were certain difficulties. Addicts are not outstandingly
> gregarious, and when all the excuses were in only three-a house painter
> named Charlie, a barber named Henry and a waiter we'll call George-were on
> hand for the first meeting. There was uncertainty about where this would
> be; nobody it seemed wanted the addicts around. Besides, missionary, or
> "twelfth step," work of the new group would be hampered by the law. When
> the A.A. member is on an errand of mercy he can, if occasion warrants,
> administer appropriate "medicine" to stave off shakes or delirium long
> enough to talk a little sense into the prospect. If the N.A. member did
> so, he'd risk a long term in jail. Drug peddlers were not enthusiastic
> about the new venture. Rumors were circulating discrediting the group.
>
> Out of the gloom, however, came unexpected rays of friendliness
> and help. The Salvation Army made room for meetings at its 46th Street
> cafeteria. Later the McBurney Y.M.C.A., on 23rd Street, offered a meeting
> room. Two doctors backed their oral support by sending patients to
> meetings. Two other doctors agreed to serve on an advisory board.
>
> There were slips and backslidings. Meetings were sometimes
> marred by obstinacy and temper. But three of the original four remained
> faithful and the group slowly grew. Difficult matters of policy were
> worked out by trial and error. Some members once thought that a
> satisfactory withdrawal could be made at home. Some hard nights were
> endured and it was concluded that the doctors were right-for a proper drug
> withdrawal institutional care is necessary. Addicts are not admitted to
> meetings while using drugs. Newcomers are advised to make their withdrawal
> first, then come to N.A. to learn to live successfully without drugs.
>
> Group statisticians estimate that 5000 inquiries have been
> answered, constituting a heavy drain on the group's treasury. Some 600
> addicts have attended one or more meetings, 90 have attained effective
> living without drugs. One of these is a motion picture celebrity, now
> doing well on his own. One relapse after the first exposure to N.A.
> principles seems to have been about par, though a number have not found
> this necessary. "A key fact of which few addicts are aware," Dan says, "is
> that once he's been addicted, a person can never again take even one dose
> of any habit-forming drug, including alcohol and the barbiturates, without
> running into trouble."
>
> The weekly "open"-to the public-meetings are attended by ten to
> thirty persons-addicts, their friends and families and concerned
> outsiders. The room is small and, on Friday evenings when more than
> twenty-five turn up, crowded.
>
> There is an interval of chitchat and visiting, and then, about
> nine o'clock, the secretary, a Brooklyn housewife, mother and
> department -store cashier, opens the meeting. In this ceremony all repeat
> the well-known prayer: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I
> cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to
> know the difference." The secretary then introduces a leader-a member who
> presents the speakers and renders interlocutor's comments from his own
> experience with a drugless life. The speakers-traditionally two in an
> evening-describe their adventures with drugs and with N.A. In two months
> of meetings I heard a score of these case histories. I also charted the
> progress of a newcomer, the young musician named Tom, whose first N.A.
> meeting coincided with my own first reportorial visit.
>
> Within the undeviating certainties of addiction, individual
> histories reveal a wide assortment of personal variations. Harold, an
> optometrist, is a "medical" addict; he got his habit from the prescription
> pad of a doctor who was treating him for osteomyelitis. An outspoken
> advocate of psychotherapy for all, Harold absorbs a certain amount of
> ribbing as the groups "psychiatric salesman." Florence, the
> housewife-cashier-secretary, recently celebrated her first anniversary of
> freedom from morphine, which she first received twenty-five years ago in a
> prescription for the relief of menstrual cramps. Carl, an electrician,
> became interested in the effects of opium smoke thirty years ago, and
> reached a point where he could not function without his daily pipe. He
> eventually switched to heroin and his troubles multiplied.
>
> Manny, an executive in a high-pressure advertising agency, and
> Marian, a registered nurse with heavy administrative responsibilities
> began using morphine to relieve fatigue. Don, Marian's husband, regards
> alcohol as his main addictive drug, but had a bad brush with
> self-prescribed barbiturates before he came to A.A. and then, with Marian,
> to N.A. Pat, another young advertising man, nearly died of poisoning from
> the barbiturates to which he had become heavily addicted. Harold and Carl
> have now been four years without drugs; Manny, three; Marian, Don and Pat,
> one.
>
> Perhaps a third of the membership are graduates of the teen-age
> heroin fad which swept our larger cities a few years ago, and which still
> enjoys as much of a vogue as dope peddlers can promote among the present
> teen-age population. Rita, an attractive daughter of Spanish-American
> Harlem, was one of the group's first members. Along with a number of her
> classmates, she began by smoking marihuana cigarettes-a typical
> introduction to drugs-then took heroin "for thrills." She used the drug
> four years, became desperately ill, went to Lexington and has now been
> free of the habit four years. Fred, a war hero, became a heroin addict
> because he wanted friends. In the teen-age gang to which he aspired, being
> hooked was a badge of distinction. He sought out the pusher who frequented
> the vicinity of his high school and got hooked. There followed seven
> miserable and dangerous years, two of them in combat and one in a
> veteran's hospital. In December of 1953 he came to N.A. and, he says,
> "really found friends."
>
> Lawrence's story is the happiest of all. He came to N.A. early
> in his first addiction, just out of high school, just married, thoroughly
> alarmed at discovering he was addicted, and desperately seeking a way out.
> N.A. friends recommended that he get "blue-grassed," an arrangement by
> which a patient may commit himself under a local statute to remain at
> Lexington 135 days for what the doctors consider a really adequate
> treatment. He attended meetings in the hospital and more meetings when he
> got home. Now happy and grateful, he thanks N.A. His boss recently
> presented him with a promotion; his wife recently presented him with a
> son.
>
> Besides the Friday open meeting there is a Tuesday closed
> meeting at the Y for addicts only. As a special dispensation I was
> permitted to attend a closed meeting, the purpose of which is to discuss
> the daily application of the twelve steps.
>
> The step under discussion the night I was there was No.4:"Make
> a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves." The point was
> raised as to whether this step might degenerate into self-recrimination
> and do more harm than good. Old-timers asserted that this was not the
> proper application. A life of drug addiction, they said, often built up an
> abnormal load of guilt and fear, which could become so oppressive as to
> threaten a relapse unless dealt with. When the addict used step 4 honestly
> to face up to his past, guilt and fear diminished and he could make
> constructive plans for his future.
>
> The Narco meetings at Lexington have borne other fruit. There
> was Charlie, the young GI from Washington, D.C., who once looted first-aid
> kits in the gun tubs of a Navy transport en route to the Philippines and
> took his first morphine out of sheer curiosity. After his Army discharge
> his curiosity led him to heroin and several bad years; then to Lexington,
> where the Narco Group struck a spark. He heard about Dan's work, went to
> New York to see him, and on his return to Washington looked around to see
> what he could do. He discovered that there was a concentration of addicts
> in the Federal penitentiary at Lorton, Virginia. Working with Alcoholics
> Anonymous, which already had meetings in the prison, he obtained
> permission to start a group like the one at Lexington. Now a year old,
> these meetings, called the Notrol Group- Lorton backward-attract the
> regular attendance of about thirty addicts. Washington has no free-world
> group, but Charlie helps a lot of addicts on an individual basis, steering
> them to A.A. meetings for doctrine.
>
> Friendliness of ex-drug addicts with former devotees of alcohol
> sometimes occurs, though Bill, the same who figured so prominently in
> A.A.'s founding, says a fraternal attitude cannot be depended upon. The
> average A.A., he says, would merely look blank if asked about drug
> addiction, and rightly reply that this specialty is outside his
> understanding. There are, however, a few A.A.'s who have been addicted
> both to alcohol and drugs, and these sometimes function as "bridge
> members."
>
> "If the addict substitutes the word 'drugs' whenever he hears
> 'alcohol' in the A.A. program, he'll be helped," Houston says. Many
> ex-addicts, in the larger population centers where meetings run to
> attendances of hundreds, attend A.A. meetings. The H.F.D. (Habit-Forming
> Drug) Group, which is activated by an energetic ex-addict and ex-alcoholic
> of the Los Angeles area named Betty, has dozens of members, but no meeting
> of its own. Individual ex-addicts who are "making it" the A.A. way include
> a minister in a South-eastern state, a politician in the deep South, a
> motion-picture mogul in California and an eminent surgeon of an Eastern
> city. The role call of ex-addict groups is small. There is the parent
> Narco Group, Addicts Anonymous, P.O. Box 2000, Lexington, KY; Narcotics
> Anonymous, P.O. Box 3, Village Station, New York 14, N.Y.; Notrol Group,
> c/o U.S. Penitentiary, Lorton, Va.; H.D.F. Group, c/o Secretary, Bay Area
> Rehabilitation Center, 1458 26th St., Santa Monica, Calif.
>
> A frequent and relevant question asked by the casually
> interested is, "But I thought habit-forming drugs were illegal-where do
> they get the stuff?" The answer involves an interesting bit of history
> explaining how opiates come to be illegal. In the early 1800's doctors
> used them freely to treat the innumerable ills then lumped under the
> heading, "nervousness." Hypodermic injection of morphine was introduced in
> 1856. By 1880, opium and morphine preparations were common drugstore
> items. An 1882 survey estimated that 1 per cent of the population was
> addicted, and the public became alarmed. A wave of legislation swept the
> country, beginning in 1885 with an Ohio statute and culminating in the
> Federal Harrison Narcotic Law of 1914. Immediately after the passage of
> this prohibitory law, prices of opium, morphine and heroin soared. A
> fantastically profitable black market developed. Today, $3000 worth of
> heroin purchased abroad brings $300,000 when finally cut, packaged and
> sold in America.
>
> Among the judges, social workers and doctors with whom I talked
> there is a growing feeling that the Harrison Act needs to be re-examined.
> Dr. Hubert S. Howe, a former Columbia professor of neurology and authority
> on narcotics, says the statute, like the Volstead Act, "removed the
> traffic in narcotic drugs from lawful hands and gave it to criminals." In
> an address before the New York State Medical Society he asserted that the
> financial props could be knocked from the illegal industry by minor
> revisions of present laws and rulings, with no risk of addiction becoming
> more widespread. Doctor Howe proposes a system of regulation similar to
> that of the United Kingdom, which reports only 364 addicts.
>
> Meanwhile the lot of those who become involved with what our
> British cousins rightly call "dangerous drugs" is grim. It is just
> slightly less grim than it might have been five years ago. Since then a
> few addicts have found a way back from the nightmare alleys of addiction
> to a normal life which may seem humdrum enough at times, but which when
> lost, then regained, is found to be a glory.
>
>
>
>
>
> Source: The Saturday Evening Post, August 7, 1954
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2194 Bill Lash
RE: NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS 2/15/2005 9:22:00 AM

Jimmy Kinnon from California started the current version of NA. There are
two great websites for
NA History at http://www.mwbr.net/narchive &
http://www.na-history.org/speaker_audio.html


Just Love,

Barefoot Bill





-----Original Message-----
From: michael oates [mailto:moates57@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:54 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS




DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON WHICH AA MEMBERS STARTED OR
HELPED START THE NA FELLOWSHIP


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2195 marathonmanric
NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS 2/15/2005 12:58:00 PM

I don't have it in front of me now, but the book which relates this
information is "Slaying the Dragon" by Bill White

Ric from Miami, Area 15, dist 10

Modertor's note: see pgs 239-241 in the cited reference

0 -1 0 0
2196 rwj426
Bill W''s funeral Bill W''s funeral 2/16/2005 10:47:00 AM

THE NEW YORK TIMES MONDAY FEBRUARY 15, 1971
500 Meet at St. John's to Mourn Loss of Bill W.
By Paul L. Montgomery

"He was my inspiration, and not mine alone," said Marty M.; one of
the first women members of Alcoholics Anonymous. "He was one of the
most gifted human beings who ever lived on this earth. She spoke at a
memorial service yesterday afternoon at the Cathedral Church of St.
John the Divine for William Griffith Wilson, the co-founder of
Alcoholics Anonymous, who died Jan.24.

In the tradition of the group whose inspiration he was, Mr. Wilson
was known during his life as Bill W. His full name, like that of the
other co-founder, Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith, was disclosed only after
death. Dr. Smith died in 1950.

About 5000 members and others; including Mr. Wilson's wife, Lois,
gathered in the crossing of the cathedral for the service, one of
many held throughout the world yesterday to honor the founder. There
was fond laughter at remembrance of his first direct and sometimes
irascible ways, reverent silence when his virtues were described, and
a few tears.

"When we saw him, we knew we were in the presence of greatness," said
Bob H., general manager of the group's World Service Office. "Bill
really needs no panegyrics from us, no monuments. We just have to
think of the half million recovered alcoholics," Dr. John L. Norris,
chairman of the group's board of trustees, recalled that Mr. Wilson,
after doing much to develop the group therapy methods, decreased his
role in the organization to promote group responsibility.

"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,
what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that
all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group
consciousness." Dr. Norris, a retired physician, was not an
alcoholic, so he acts, as he says "the face man" for the group and
allows his name to be used. "I drink once in a while," the doctor
said in an interview. "It doesn't do much for me though."

The service was conducted by the Rev. Yvelin Gardner of St. George's
Episcopal Church, Hempstead, L.I.; Rabbi David Seligson of the
Central Synagogue, 55th Street and Lexington Avenue, and Father Joe
A., a Catholic priest, read prayers.

0 -1 0 0
2197 Nick Hernandez
Re: court slips??? Any Info?? court slips??? Any Info?? 2/16/2005 12:13:00 PM

I've heard that slip signing started in Lincoln Nebraska around 1959
when a lawyer in AA was nominated to the bench and started the
practice. His rational was that some familiarity with AA wouldn't
hurt and might do them some good.

Nick

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "richard johnson"
<hotshots@e...> wrote:
> I heard that signing court slips started when a judge said 30
days in jail
> or 30 A.A. meetings...Any one know anything??? Thanks Richard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:33 AM
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 704
>
>
> >
> >
> > There is 1 message in this issue.
> >
> > Topics in this digest:
> >
> > 1. Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> > From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@h...>
> >
> >
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:07:33 -0000
> > From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@h...>
> > Subject: Birthdate of John (Jack) Alexander
> >
> >
> > The SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH INDEX shows that the John Alexander who
> > died in St Petersburg FL on September 17 1975 was born February 8
> > 1903, and was thus 72 years old rather than 73 as in the
GRAPEVINE
> > notice -- but I believe this was our Jack Alexander. He was thus
> > born on the same day that (in 1940) was the day of the famous
> > Rockefeller dinner at the Union League Club. -- Jared Lobdell
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

0 -1 0 0
2198 Arkie Koehl
Re: Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill W''s funeral Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill W''s funeral 2/16/2005 2:05:00 PM

Thanks for the NY Times obit.

I was amused to read:

"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,
what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that
all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group
consciousness."

In my decades in AA it has always seemed a struggle for people to write
the words "group conscience" as it appears in our Tradition. It is
usually "group conscious" or some variation on that. "Group
consciousness" is a first for me. At least it's a noun and not an
adjective. I wonder if Norris actually said it, or if it was some Times
reporter scribbling as fast as he could :-)

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu

0 -1 0 0
2199 unclebearboy@yahoo.com
Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book 2/17/2005 5:03:00 AM

I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.
But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I
wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective
local areas?

Do you know who any of them are?


~ bILL

0 -1 0 0
2200 sbanker914@aol.com
Re: Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster Book: "Bar Room Reveries," by Ed Webster 2/15/2005 11:35:00 AM

In a message dated 2/15/2005 1:29:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
groovycharacterdefects@yahoo.com writes:

I was wondering if the book is valuable or
historically significant?

A Google search reveals that a signed copy is selling for $75.

Susan Banker


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2201 Bob McK
RE: Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill W''s funeral Dr Norris'' Comments at Bill W''s funeral 2/17/2005 9:08:00 AM

Our Regional Historian, Rick S., just sent out Dr. Norris's full talk and
yes he said "group conscience" and not words that sound like it. Don't take
this rendition as gospel! Go back to more original sources since I had to
fix internet-altered punctuation and one typo. But this is the gist of his
talk.

Bob

DR. NORRIS' TALK
MEMORIAL SERVICES for BILL
NEW YORK, N. Y. FEB 14TH, 1971


Our beloved Bill is dead. Evan as I stand before you and say the
words, I cannot really believe that it is true. In my heart I choose to
believe that Bill is here with us at this very moment. And I somehow can
almost hear him saying in that half-amused, half embarrassed way of his, "Oh
come on now Jack, do you really think all this fuss is necessary?"

Two weeks ago, at a meeting of your Board of Trustees, shortly after
Bill's passing, there was a rather lively discussion about a matter
involving the whole fellowship. When it had reached a certain level of
intensity, I found myself waiting to hear Bill speak up, as he so often did
and say those few words that would put everything in perspective. But he
didn't speak. And it was then that I realized way down deep that we would
never hear his voice again...that we could no longer count on the constant
presence of his wisdom and strength. We could never again say as we had said
so many times before, "Bill, what do you think?" And I at least, have not
yet come to accept this completely.

Bill was no saint. He was an alcoholic and a man of stubborn will
and purpose. How else could he have lived through the years of frustration,
failure, and discouragement while the steps, the traditions, and the
conference were being hammered out on the anvil of hard experience with the
first few groups? That he had the self-honesty, the clarity of vision to see
the vital necessity for the Third Step, and turning one's life and will over
to a Higher Power is just one part of our great good fortune that Bill
lived. I have seen Bill's pride and I have seen his humility. And I have
been present when people from far countries have met him for the first time
and started to cry. And all Bill - that shy Vermonter - could do was stand
there and look like he wanted to run from the room. No, Bill was no saint,
although many of us wanted to make him into one. Knowing this, he was
insistent that legends about him be kept to a minimum - that accurate
records be kept so that future generations would know him as a man. He was a
very human person -- to me an exceptionally human person.

Bill's constant concern during almost all of the years that I knew him was
that Alcoholics Anonymous should always be available for the suffering
alcoholic--that the mistakes that led to the fading of previous movements to
help alcoholics should be avoided. To me one measure of his greatness is the
clarity of his vision of the future in his determination to let go of us
long before we were willing to let go of him.

Bill was a good sponsor, - the wise old timer determined to relinquish the
role of founder because he knew that A.A. must, as he would say, come of age
and take complete responsibility for itself. He had an abiding faith that
our Fellowship not only could, but should run without him. Repeatedly,
during the last few years, he has said in General Service Conference
sessions "We have nothing to fear." Bill believed that the wisdom of A.A.
came out of church basements and not from the pulpit; that it was directed
from the groups to the Trustees rather than the other way around. He
sometimes felt, though, when the Conference disagreed with him as it
sometimes did, that its conscience needed to be better informed, but it was
this way that we really shared experience and developed strength and
confidence that the answers would work out.

Bill knew that it was not one voice that should be heard, but many thousands
of voices. And it was his gift that he was able to listen to them all, then,
out of the noise and confusion discern the group conscience. Then he would
put it all together, the tension of argument would fade, and everyone would
realize that his answer was right. What Bill's death means to me now is,
that all of us--all of us: you, the delegates, the Trustees--will have to
listen much more carefully than we once did in order to make out the voice
of the group conscience.

And I know that this is possible. Bill has trained us for it beginning in
St. Louis in 1955. For this was Bill's vision -- to create a channel of
communication within the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous that would make
it possible for everyone to be hear: from the individual through the group,
to the delegates and to the Trustees, so that A.A. will always be here to
extend a hand to the drunk who is at this very moment crying out in the
darkness of his night as he reaches for help.

In closing, I want to say that it has been an honor for me to have had this
opportunity to participate with you in giving thanks to God that Bill lived
and was given the wisdom and strength and courage to make the world a better
place for all of us. There are many more things I could say, but what can
one say finally of a man's goodness and greatness? How many ways can you
take his measure? I cannot do it or say it for any of you -- only for
myself. He was the greatest and wisest man I ever knew. Above everything, he
was a man. And I believe that he left his goodness and greatness and wisdom
with us, for any of us to take in what measure we can. May God grant us the
wisdom and strength to keep Alcoholics Anonymous alive, vital, attractive,
unencumbered by the egocentricities that can so easily spoil it.


-----Original Message-----
From: Arkie Koehl [mailto:arkie@arkoehl.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:05 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr Norris' Comments at Bill W's funeral



Thanks for the NY Times obit.

I was amused to read:

"We can never again say, as we have said so many times before, "Bill,
what do you think?" Dr. Norris said. "What his death means is that
all of us will have to listen harder than ever to discern the group
consciousness."

In my decades in AA it has always seemed a struggle for people to write
the words "group conscience" as it appears in our Tradition. It is
usually "group conscious" or some variation on that. "Group
consciousness" is a first for me. At least it's a noun and not an
adjective. I wonder if Norris actually said it, or if it was some Times
reporter scribbling as fast as he could :-)

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu








Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2202 Hugh D. Hyatt
Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book 2/17/2005 11:22:00 AM

unclebearboy@yahoo.com is alleged to have written, on or about 02/17/05
05:03:
>
> I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.
> But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I
> wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective
> local areas?
>
> Do you know who any of them are?

One is fairly good friend of mine who I met when I came into the rooms in
1992. She had less than a year's sobriety at the time. Most people do
not know that she's the author of a story in the Big Book. She doesn't
say that she is in her story. She obviously has quite a bit of humility
about it. Those of us who do know are -- as far as I can tell, which may
not be very far -- generally people who knew her before her story was
published and so do not treat her like a celebrity.

I also once met another author of a story from the Big Book at a meeting
in NJ. I didn't know till after we'd left the meeting and never would
have guessed it if I hadn't been told. He certainly didn't act like a
celebrity and no one at the meeting treated him that way. I have no idea
how many people knew that his story had been published.

--
Hugh H.
Bryn Athyn, PA

Liberty has never come from government.
Liberty has always come from the subjects of government.
The history of liberty is the history of resistance.
-- Woodrow T. Wilson

0 -1 0 0
2203 Kimball Rowe
Re: Big Book Editions Big Book Editions 2/18/2005 4:37:00 PM

In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a direct
result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided to
leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective conscience
of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 3rd
Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of which I was
one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th Edition. Was there
any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was the deciding factor, for
no one person speaks for AA.

A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at the
General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the general
consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It is the
general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group conscience,
which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe in the first 164
pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group conscience, have it
thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic recovers is his opinion.

Kim
In love and Service

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions



What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2206 gentle_bear
RE: Digest Number 709 Digest Number 709 2/19/2005 11:05:00 AM

Hi Guys,
I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.
Is this the total global estimate?
Where is this figure from?
Regards
Robin F.
Queensland
Australia.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give
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--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Big Book Editions
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
Subject: Re: Big Book Editions

In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for
the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of
which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th
Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was
the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.

A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at
the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It
is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group
conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe
in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group
conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic
recovers is his opinion.

Kim
In love and Service

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions



What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:56 -0800
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book

Clyde; alcoholic,
I can understand peoples curiosity and/or the need to know from anyone
outside of AA to want to know specifically who wrote the BB, as well as whom
and where the stories in the BB came from. However, our tradtions remind us
to frey from making personalities out of AA member's. We are supposed to
keep our anonymity sacred, especially at the level of press, radio, TV and
film; which includes the internet. That we are supposed to always look for
the principal but not towards the personality. Not all whom come to AA whom
are already personalities find it comfortable to be segmented from the
regular membership. An example of that was when I heard Tony H. share. I
believe he said it best in a meeting I was at in LA last year. He said in
part that in AA, he gets to be Tony the drunk. Not the movie star everyone
seems to want to get to know. He doubted if anyone would want to get to
know him or even be attracted to him if he weren't Sir Anthony H. I tend to
agree with him. I suggest we honor the traditions and leave the rest to
wonder about.

Love in fellowship, Clyde G.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links




------------------------------------------------------------------------

0 -1 0 0
2207 J. Carey Thomas
change ? to BB text change ? to BB text 2/19/2005 2:36:00 PM

Folks,
Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I
would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"
-- or words to that effect?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

0 -1 0 0
2208 ArtSheehan
Special Post - Anonymity Special Post - Anonymity 2/19/2005 4:40:00 PM

To the AA members in the AAHistoryLovers (AAHL) special interest group

AAHL is neither an AA group nor an AA entity. While AAHL is not bound
by AA’s anonymity Traditions, everything possible will be done to
respect them.

Some recent posts have been distributed which inadvertently reveal the
identity of an AA member (the pseudonym used to disguise the member’s
identity is far too easy to figure out).

The message of concern (and others containing embedded copies of it)
cannot be recalled but the archived copies have been deleted.

The error was an honest one and every effort will be made to avoid
repeating it.

Arthur S
Co-Moderator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2209 MikeB
Re: Digest Number 707 Digest Number 707 2/17/2005 12:13:00 PM

On Feb 17, 2005, at 10:51 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> I've read some of the history about authors of the personal stories.
> But, what about the identities of the new authors in the 4th Ed? I
> wonder if these people are kinda like celebrities in their respective
> local areas?
>
> Do you know who any of them are?

I really had to chuckle at your questions, since I know one of the
authors quite well, and he's certainly not considered a celebrity
although he's a fine member of Alcoholics anonymous.

Mike B.

0 -1 0 0
2210 Kimball Rowe
Re: Digest Number 709 Digest Number 709 2/19/2005 8:29:00 PM

The number given is global. From 1951 on, the group/membership figures can be
found in the final Conference reports. 2003 and 2004 are estimates based on 2002
and trends. A table of these figrues can be found in the document
AA_Timeline_2004-4-01_Public04.pdf on Silkworth.net The table has it broken out
by US, Canada, Overseas, Hospitals and Prisons.

Kim

----- Original Message -----
From: gentle_bear
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:05 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709


Hi Guys,
I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.
Is this the total global estimate?
Where is this figure from?
Regards
Robin F.
Queensland
Australia.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give
the gift of life to a sick child.
Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
http://us.click.yahoo.com/3iazvD/6WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Big Book Editions
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700
From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
Subject: Re: Big Book Editions

In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for
the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of
which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th
Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was
the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.

A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at
the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.

On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It
is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group
conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe
in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group
conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic
recovers is his opinion.

Kim
In love and Service

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions



What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?

Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
Edition?

Who originally made this decision?

I am looking for documented historical sources.
Thank you in advance.

Jim
California





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:56 -0800
From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book

Clyde; alcoholic,
I can understand peoples curiosity and/or the need to know from anyone
outside of AA to want to know specifically who wrote the BB, as well as whom
and where the stories in the BB came from. However, our tradtions remind us
to frey from making personalities out of AA member's. We are supposed to
keep our anonymity sacred, especially at the level of press, radio, TV and
film; which includes the internet. That we are supposed to always look for
the principal but not towards the personality. Not all whom come to AA whom
are already personalities find it comfortable to be segmented from the
regular membership. An example of that was when I heard Tony H. share. I
believe he said it best in a meeting I was at in LA last year. He said in
part that in AA, he gets to be Tony the drunk. Not the movie star everyone
seems to want to get to know. He doubted if anyone would want to get to
know him or even be attracted to him if he weren't Sir Anthony H. I tend to
agree with him. I suggest we honor the traditions and leave the rest to
wonder about.

Love in fellowship, Clyde G.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Get unlimited calls to

U.S./Canada




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2211 Doug B.
Re: Digest Number 709 Digest Number 709 2/20/2005 9:37:00 AM

I just looked in my final report and the total number is not 2.6 million.

It is 2,066,851 .... so the number should have been written 2.06 million.
(thats a difference of 600,000 members....or 29% of the actual membership)

These are the actual membership estimates:

United States was 1,187,169
Canada was 96,446
Correctional Facilities was 66,509
Internationalists was 70
Lone members was 204
Total is 1,350,398

Outside US and Canada was 716,453

Grand Total (estimated) is 2,066,851

I find that there is no substitution for the actual source of information,
whenever possible, because folks make mistakes...then others will quote
them....and then the myth becomes "truth" in some minds....thats one reason a
group like this exists....to seek the actual truth.

Doug B.

[Ref:] 2004 Final Report, Our Singleness of Purpose - The Cornerstone of AA,
from the staff report on page 32

The 54th Annual Meeting of the
General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous




Kimball Rowe wrote:

> The number given is global. From 1951 on, the group/membership figures can be
found in the final Conference reports. 2003 and 2004 are estimates based on 2002
and trends. A table of these figrues can be found in the document
AA_Timeline_2004-4-01_Public04.pdf on Silkworth.net The table has it broken out
by US, Canada, Overseas, Hospitals and Prisons.
>
> Kim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gentle_bear
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:05 AM
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709
>
> Hi Guys,
> I note in the text below that the estimated AA membership is 2.6 million.
> Is this the total global estimate?
> Where is this figure from?
> Regards
> Robin F.
> Queensland
> Australia.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2005 1:42 AM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Digest Number 709
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give
> the gift of life to a sick child.
> Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/3iazvD/6WnJAA/xGEGAA/219olB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
> There are 2 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: Big Book Editions
> From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
> 2. Re: Authors of Personal Stories in 4th Edition Big Book
> From: "Cloydg" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:37:51 -0700
> From: "Kimball Rowe" <rowek@softcom.net>
> Subject: Re: Big Book Editions
>
> In each edition, as far as I can tell, the decision has been made as a
> direct result of the Group Conscience expressed through their Group Service
> Representative. Thus, the collective conscience of 135,000 members decided
> to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 2nd Edition. The collective
> conscience of 574,000 members decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for
> the 3rd Edition. And the collective conscience of 2,160,000 members (of
> which I was one) decided to leave the first 164 pages alone for the 4th
> Edition. Was there any decent? Of course. But the Group Conscience was
> the deciding factor, for no one person speaks for AA.
>
> A documented historical source might be the votes cast by area delegates at
> the General Service Conference prior to the publication of the new editions.
>
> On a side note, I hear some people refer to the first 164 pages as the
> general consensus of the first 100 sober alcoholics. This is not true. It
> is the general consensus of the Fellowship as expressed through a group
> conscience, which today is estimated at 2.6 million. If we did not believe
> in the first 164 pages we would certainly gather together and, by our group
> conscience, have it thrown out. After all, the first thing an alcoholic
> recovers is his opinion.
>
> Kim
> In love and Service
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:45 AM
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book Editions
>
> What was the process of deciding to essentially leave the first 164
> pages as they were originally set in the First Edition?
>
> Was this decision made just prior to the publishing of The Second
> Edition?
>
> Who originally made this decision?
>
> I am looking for documented historical sources.
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Jim
> California
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2212 Robert Stonebraker
RE: change ? to BB text change ? to BB text 2/20/2005 11:42:00 AM

Pages 200, "Pass It On" states: (According to an apocryphal story, Bill
was asked in later years whether there was any change he wished he could
have made in the Big Book, and he replied he would change "rarely" to
"never." . Bill himself said he never considered that change.)

And

On page 245 of "Not God," by E. Kurtz, Bill states in a 1961 letter: "I
think the main reason for the use of the word "rarely" was to avoid anything
that would look like a claim of 100% result."

Bob S.




-----Original Message-----
From: J. Carey Thomas [mailto:jct3@juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:37 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text


Folks,
Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I
would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"
-- or words to that effect?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------







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0 -1 0 0
2213 DeafAA@aol.com
History History 2/20/2005 8:29:00 AM

Hello

I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings during the
early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob during 1940's or
1950's???

Jane

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2214 ny-aa@att.net
Re: Digest Number 709 Digest Number 709 2/20/2005 1:42:00 PM

An Advisory Action by the 1995 General Service Conference authorized work on a
Fourth Edition of the Big Book. It repeated previous decisions that the first
164 pages, the\Prefaces, the Prologues, "The Doctor's Opinion," "Dr. Bob's
Nightmarem" ane the Appendices remain as is.

The area delegates to the General Service Conference are from the United States
and Canada. Certainly they considered the needs of alcoholics in other countries
and those who were incarcerated (total estimate of 1,922,269) but they directly
represented the group conscience of 1,251,192 A.A. members that year.

0 -1 0 0
2215 Ernest Kurtz
Re: History History 2/20/2005 5:10:00 PM

Hi Jane,

I doubt that you will find the exact information you seek (unless
someone else on this listserv knows it) but there is a wealth of general
information at http://www.dhh12s.com/index.htm Not much history, I'm
afraid, but I am often amazed at what I find browsing such pages.

ernie

DeafAA@aol.com wrote:

>
> Hello
>
> I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings
> during the early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob
> during 1940's or 1950's???
>
> Jane
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
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0 -1 0 0
2216 ArtSheehan
Response to Inquiry About Big Book Editions Response to Inquiry About Big Book Editions 2/20/2005 7:21:00 PM

The 1st edition

In November 1937, Bill and Dr Bob met in Akron. Bill had ideas for a
chain of hospitals, paid missionaries and a book of experience to
carry the message to distant places. His ideas passed by 2 votes among
18 members (1 vote actually made the difference).

Up to December 1938, the recovery program was made up of 6 Steps
(passed on to new members by word of mouth). Bill changed this to 12
written Steps to add clarity and close loopholes the alcoholics were
wiggling through. Differing versions of the 6 Steps are listed in “The
Language of the Heart,” “AA Comes of Age,” “Pass It On” and the Big
Book Pioneer story “He Sold Himself Short."

In March 1939, a heavily edited manuscript was turned over to Tom
Uzzell, an editor at Collier’s and a member of the NYU faculty. The
manuscript was variously estimated as 600 to 800 pages. Uzzell reduced
it to 400 pages. Most cuts came from the stories.

On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the 1st edition of “Alcoholics
Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy ($46 a copy today). The
printer was told to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large,
bulky volume became known as the “Big Book” and the name has stuck
ever since. The idea behind the thick and large paper was to convince
the alcoholics they were getting their money’s worth.

Despite many assertions to the contrary, the Big Book does not
"precisely" (in the sense of "exactly") describe the recovery program
used by the first 100 members. The book actually transformed the 6
Step recovery program then used into something quite different. In the
literary sense "precisely" simply means "short and to the point."

The page numbering of the 1st edition basic text was from 1 to 179
(not 164). “The Doctor's Opinion” was originally page 1. “Bill's
Story” did not become page 1 until the 2nd edition.

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the 1st edition. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to
“spiritual awakening” and “as the result of these steps” was changed
to “as the result of those steps.” The appendix “Spiritual Experience”
was added. Many members thought they had to have a sudden, spectacular
spiritual experience like the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The
changes emphasized that most spiritual experiences were of the type
that the psychologist William James called the “educational variety.”

The 2nd edition

In April 1952, based on a 1951 advisory action, the Board formed a
special committee on literature and made a report to the 1952
Conference. The Board recommended literature items that should be
retained and future items that would be needed. Bill W also reported
on the literature projects he was engaged in. One of them included
updating the story section of the Big Book.

The Conference unanimously approved the Board proposals and Bill's
projects. This led to Conference-approval of the 2nd edition and
retroactive approval of the 1st edition and several pamphlets.

In 1955, AA’s 20th anniversary and 2nd International Convention
occurred in St Louis, MO. AA came of age. The General Service
Conference became the Guardian of the Traditions and group conscience
of the entire Fellowship. The 2nd edition Big Book was also published.
30 new personal stories were introduced.

In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of
the 2nd edition. The term “as the result of those steps” was restored
to “as the result of these steps.”

The 3rd edition

The 1976 Conference approved the 3rd edition.

300,000 copies of the 1st edition were distributed from 1939 to 1955.
1,150,000 copies of the 2nd edition were distributed from 1955 to
1976. 19,550,000 copies of the 3rd edition were distributed from 1976
to 2002. Distribution reached the 1 million mark in 1973 and the 22
million mark in 2001.

4th edition

The 2002 Conference approved the 4th edition. More than 3,000,000
copies of it have been distributed so far. Big Book distribution
surpassed 25 million copies in January 2005.

Changes to the basic text

Contrary to popular belief, many wording changes have been made to the
“basic text.” In the 11th printing of the 1st edition, the term
"ex-alcoholic" was replaced by "ex-problem drinker" or "non-drinker."

Other changes updated numerical values to show growth (e.g. "scores"
changed to "hundreds" changed to "thousands" etc). Also, foot notes
were added. Several web sites have tables detailing all the wording
changes from edition to edition.

The sentiments of the membership

The basic text is "protected" from radical change by the prevailing
sentiment of the entire AA Fellowship. Changes can be made by
Conference advisory action but it’s doubtful they would get very far.

As early as the 2nd edition (1955) Bill W sensed that the Fellowship
was resistant to changing the basic text. The inside flap of the 2nd
edition dust jacket states "Of course, the basic text itself, page 1
to page 165 [sic] remains substantially unchanged. To the minds of
most AAs, this should stand as first written."

The foreword to the 3rd edition probably best describes it with the
statement "Because this book has become the basic text for our Society
and has helped such large numbers of alcoholic men and women to
recovery, there exists a sentiment against any radical changes being
made to it. Therefore, the first portion of this volume, describing
the AA recovery program, has been left untouched in the course of
revisions made for both the second and third editions."

Several Conference advisory actions for the 4th edition reaffirmed
that no changes were to be made to the forewords, basic text,
appendices and “Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to remain "as is."

Cheers
Arthur

0 -1 0 0
2217 Glenn Chesnut
New articles on AA history New articles on AA history 2/21/2005 2:30:00 AM

Articles and essays from the Hindsfoot Foundation webpage have been appearing in
the AAHistoryLovers for quite some time. They have been on topics like early AA
prison groups, early black AA leaders, the role of the Upper Room in helping
shape the spirituality of the Big Book, the authors of Twenty-Four Hours a Day
and The Little Red Book, and so on.

It has been decided to discontinue doing this, because the way AAHistoryLovers
messages have to be posted, it is difficult to format many of the articles so
that they can be read easily, and even more important, it is impossible to
include photos of first editions and people and places.

If however you would like to continue to read them when they come out, could you
please send us an email at "hfaabooks" hyphen "mail" at "yahoo" dot "com":

hfaabooks-mail@yahoo.com

If this link doesn't work, click on this link instead --
http://hindsfoot.org/hfaabooks.html -- and then click on the email address given
on that page.

Every month or so, when a new article or essay comes out, an email will be sent
to your address giving the title of the piece and a link which you can click on
if you want to read it.

If later on you decide that you don't want these notices coming, just let us
know at the same email address, and we'll remove you from the list immediately.
(This is just a little private sub-account in the e-mail system we use for
corresponding with authors when we are editing their books. It's handy for this
purpose because there is a button we can click in that separate address folder
and send the same email to a number of people simultaneously.)

Or you can just check the Hindsfoot Foundation site itself every once in a
while:

http://hindsfoot.org/

This address takes you to the home page. At the bottom of that page, there is an
index of all the articles and essays arranged in reverse chronological order.
The ones at the top of the list are the ones which have appeared most recently.

Thanks,

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2218 Bill Lash
RE: change ? to BB text change ? to BB text 2/20/2005 9:30:00 PM

"Rarely - or Never?"

How co-founder Bill Wilson answered a frequently asked question.

The AA Grapevine, December 1978

From time to time over the years, some AA members will question the wording
of the first sentence of Chapter 5 of Alcoholics Anonymous: "Rarely have we
seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Why, the
enthusiastic member asks, doesn't the Big Book say, "Never have we seen a
person fail..."?

This question was answered - several times - by an AA well qualified to
speak on the subject, since he wrote the book, with the assistance of other
early members.

Bill Wilson, AA's co-founder, answered a 1961 letter from Minnesota with
these words (preserved, like those of the following letter, in the archives
at the AA General Service Office): "Concerning your comment about the use of
the word 'rarely" in Chapter 5 of the Big Book: My recollection is that we
did give this considerable thought at the time of writing. I think the main
reason for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid anything that would
look like a claim of a 100% result. Assuming, of course, that an alcoholic
is willing enough and sane enough, there can be a perfect score on [a person
of this sort]. But since willingness and sanity are such elusive and
fluctuating values, we simply didn't want to be too positive. The medical
profession could jump right down our throats.

"Then, too, we have seen people who have apparently tried their very best,
and then failed, not because of unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of
physical tension or some undisclosed quirk, not known to them or anyone
else. Neither did we want to over encourage relatives and friends in the
supposition that their dear ones could surely get well in AA if only they
were willing. I think that's why we chose that word. I remember thinking
about it a lot.

"Maybe some of these same reasons would apply to present conditions. Anyhow,
I do know this: The text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds of tens of
thousands of AA’s that even the slightest change creates an uproar."

*************************

In 1967, Bill made the following reply to a Florida member asking the same
question: "Respecting my use of the word 'rarely,' I think it was chosen
because it did not express an absolute state of affairs, such as 'never'
does. Anyhow, we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely.' My few efforts
to change the wording of the AA book have always come to naught - the
protests are always too many."

*************************

And at the 1970 General Service Conference, this Ask-It-Basket question was
addressed directly to Bill: "If there was any change you would make in the
Big Book, would it be to change the word 'rarely' to 'never' at the start of
Chapter 5.

Bill answered, "No."

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 11:43 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text

Pages 200, "Pass It On" states: (According to an apocryphal story, Bill
was asked in later years whether there was any change he wished he could
have made in the Big Book, and he replied he would change "rarely" to
"never." . Bill himself said he never considered that change.)

And

On page 245 of "Not God," by E. Kurtz, Bill states in a 1961 letter: "I
think the main reason for the use of the word "rarely" was to avoid
anything
that would look like a claim of 100% result."

Bob S.

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Carey Thomas [mailto:jct3@juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:37 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] change ? to BB text

Folks,
Can anyone verify that Bill W. has ever said "The only word I
would change is 'rarely' (to 'Never') at the start of the fifth chapter"
-- or words to that effect?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

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0 -1 0 0
2219 Keith Dunn
1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/21/2005 9:23:00 PM

Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.
The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing
date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000. The eighth printing
shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests there
are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16
printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of
the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of
the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated
demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but
the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The
book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945. But, taking into
account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact that
the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th
printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and
the resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more
books (and profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay
within government guidelines. Any suggestions as to where to go for
information, or does anyone have any feedback on this?
Love and Service, Keith D

*****
Art, feel free to respond directly, and forward this to anyone who
can be of help. I didn't know if protocol dictated I send this
straight to the "group", or if I could send it to some archivists
directly. I am aware this is pretty "deep." I've done a lot of
research in the archive arena, and have few resources in Nebraska.
Thanks for your help.

0 -1 0 0
2220 righteousthug
Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II 2/22/2005 5:22:00 PM

It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
think about it.

Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.

Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
diaspora because of the aviation industry.

I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
(apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.

My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
that WWII had on the spread of AA?

/rt
6/14/88

0 -1 0 0
2221 Audrey Borden
Re: Deaf People in AA Deaf People in AA 2/22/2005 7:50:00 PM

Greetings everyone,

Regarding Jane's recent question about deaf AA members, this isn't much but
it might be helpful. The information is from Bob P.'s unpublished material
(from the section on Special Purpose groups in AA):

* The first group of AA for deaf and hearing impaired members was formed
in Los Angeles in 1962.

* In 1985 the AA General Service Office listed over a hundred groups and
contacts for deaf members.

Perhaps the Los Angeles Central Office could put you in touch with someone
who knows more about the history of this first group, or the archivist at
the General Service Office.

Regards, -- Audrey in California


Message: 3
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:29:11 EST
From: DeafAA@aol.com
Subject: History


Hello

I am wondering if there were any deaf people attending AA meetings during
the early 1940's? Or.. Did the deaf people meet Bill W or Dr. Bob during
1940's or 1950's???

Jane

0 -1 0 0
2222 Mel Barger
McGhee Baxter McGhee Baxter 2/23/2005 9:21:00 AM

Hi Friends,

In "On the Tail of a Comet," Garth Lean's splendid biography of Frank Buchman,
there's a mention on page 140 of McGhee Baxter, who is described as an alcoholic
whom Buchman had helped. Baxter resumed drinking, however, and was apparently
quite a problem for the Oxford Group team that went to South Africa in 1929. He
was reportedly pursuing Eleanor Forde in the hope of marrying her, but she
wisely resisted his charms!

McGhee later was in Richmond, Virginia, and was one of the early AA members
there. In "Pass It On," pp. 170-173, Bill Wilson explains to a Richmond member
why AA separated from the Oxford Group. Though not mentioned in the book, the
Richmond member was McGhee Baxter. McGhee also may have lived for a time in
Weaverville, N.C.

Eleanor Forde later married Jim Newton, who was responsible for carrying the
O.G. message to "Bud" Firestone in Akron, thus starting a chain of events that
resulted in the 1933 Oxford Group rally that brought in several people who would
help Dr. Bob and the early Akron AA members. Some years ago, I spent a pleasant
afternoon in Ft. Myers Beach with Jim and Ellie Newton. They remembered McGhee
fondly and were delighted to hear that he may have found sobriety in AA.

Does anybody have any information about McGhee and how he fared in AA? He was
obviously a very conscientious and devoted AA member at the time he wrote to
Bill. The Newtons have passed on (Ellie lived to be 103), but it would still be
interesting to know how things worked out for McGhee.

McGhee also appears to have been an Oxford Group member who made an early
transition into AA. Nell Wing did some research and concluded that quite a few
O.G. members found their way into AA.
Mel Barger




~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2223 ArtSheehan
RE: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/23/2005 7:58:00 PM

Hi Keith

From the information I have (see below). it shows 20,000 copies for
the 8th printing. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this figure and
am uncomfortable with it. Plus the number you cite (5,000 copies)
seems much more consistent with the trend of the war years
mobilization period from 1941 thru 1943.

AA membership exploded after the War. I have a table that contains
figures on the number of Big Books distributed over the years but very
little info on the printings.

Printings of Alcoholics Anonymous First Editions

1st - Apr 1939, 4,730 Printed, Red Binding
2nd - Mar 1941, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
3rd - Jun 1942, 5,000 Printed, Light Blue Binding
4th - Mar 1943, 3,500 Printed, Green Binding
5th - Jan 1944, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
6th - Jun 1944, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
7th - Jan 1945, 5,000 Printed, Blue Binding
8th - Feb 1945,20,000 Printed, Blue Binding
9th - Jan 1946, 20,000 Printed, Blue Binding
10th - Aug 1946, 25,000 Printed, Blue Binding
11th - Jun 1947, 25,000 Printed, Blue Binding
12th - 25000 Printed, Blue Binding
13th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
14th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
15th, - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
16th - 50,000 Printed, Blue Binding
_____

From: Keith Dunn [mailto:werdunn_99@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:23 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st Edition, 7th printing

Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.
The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing
date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000.

The eighth printing shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests
there are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16
printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of
the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of
the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated
demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but
the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The
book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945.

But, taking into account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact
that the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th
printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and the
resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more books (and
profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay within government
guidelines.

Any suggestions as to where to go for information, or does anyone have any
feedback on this?

Love and Service, Keith D













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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2224 WCompWdsUnl@aol.com
Singleness of Purpose Singleness of Purpose 2/22/2005 6:40:00 AM

Could anyone provide me with any related history about how the principle of
Singleness of Purpose was adopted by the early A.A. members. Who? When? Why?
Under what circumstances? Were there any members who disagreed, if so, why?
etc>

Thank you,

Larry W.
(Atlanta, GA)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2225 courtautomation
Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg 2/22/2005 2:06:00 PM

Hi Folks!
Thanks for having this fantastic group!

I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA
history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am
generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and
current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.

In "The Soul of Sponsorship" about the friendship of Bill W. and
Father Ed, it mentions that Bill and Lois were married in "Lois's
family's Swedenborgian church," is there any more information about
whether Lois was an active Swedenborgian?

Thanks in advance for the help.

-Craig S.
Alcoholic

0 -1 0 0
2226 Jeffrey Johnson
Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg 2/24/2005 12:11:00 AM

Craig,

Below, please find a compilation of posts to AAhistorylovers from the summer of
2003 regarding the topic of ‘Swedenborgian roots in AA’. Please be aware, you
should search the AAhistorylovers archive during that period, as there may be
additional relevant information in other posts. These particular posts were of
interest to me, and as a result, they are the only ones I saved.

Regards,
Jeff J

They must be thinking of Lois Wilson as Swedenborgian. Her grandfather, Nathan
Clark Burnham, was a Swedenborgian minister in Lancaster, PA. We can assume
that some of this influenced Lois. The connection is mentioned on page 2 of
"Lois Remembers," published in 1979 by Alanon.

Mel Barger

Lois Wilson's paternal grandfather, Nathan Clarke Burnham, practiced law,
medicine and was also a minister of the Swedenborgian Church. He wrote a book
"Discrete Degrees" about the relation Swedenborg had found between the spiritual
and natural life.

Re the book "Lois Remembers" page 2.

On January 24, 1918 Lois and Bill were married in the Swedeborgian Church in
Brooklyn, NY.

Cheers
Arthur

I wouldn't be surprised if all four of them (Bill W., Lois, Dr. Bob, and Ann)
had read some Swedenborgian material at some point, because they were all
fascinated with unconventional religious movements, spiritualism, and so on --
it's a possibility, but I've never run across any specific references. Perhaps
someone else in the AAHistoryLovers could come up with a specific reference?

But I wonder if your Swedenborgian chaplain got something a little garbled here,
and left out a step or two in the transmission process. William James, author
of The Varieties of Religious Experience, had a profound effect on the founders
of A.A. -- we all know that.

William James' father was a Swedenborgian theologian, and I should imagine that
a Swedenborgian would notice many things in The Varieties of Religious
Experience (some of the questions asked, and the kind of data that James was
looking at, and some of the interpretations) that were the product of a
Swedenborgian upbringing. And the Swedenborgians may still claim William James
as "one of their own," which may have been why the chaplain made that statement.

So it is possible that all that the chaplain was really referring to was the
heavy use which Bill and Bob and Lois and Ann made of The Varieties of Religious
Experience and the ideas of William James.

On the other hand, there may have been more involved -- which would be very
interesting to know -- so I too would be curious to find out if anyone else in
the AAHistoryLovers group knows of any specific references to the Swedenborgians
in the lives (and reading) of Lois or Ann.

Glenn Chesnut, Indiana University (South Bend)

P.S. For those who haven't heard of this group, Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772)
was a Swedish scientist who turned into a mystic and visionary in his later
years (direct contact with the angels, etc.). He insisted that the spiritual
realm was more basic than the material realm, and that the Universe had a
fundamental spiritual structure. It's a pantheistic system: everything is God,
and God is in everything.

Swedenborgianism was one of the ancestors of New Thought (Emmet Fox et al.) and
similar movements which came later on. The New Jerusalem Church (the group
which his followers formed) established their first congregation in the United
States at Baltimore in 1792, and there are still about 40,000 Swedenborgians
worldwide. I've seen their place in Boston.

courtautomation <courtautomation@excite.com> wrote:

Hi Folks!

Thanks for having this fantastic group!

I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA
history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am
generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and
current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.

In "The Soul of Sponsorship" about the friendship of Bill W. and
Father Ed, it mentions that Bill and Lois were married in "Lois's
family's Swedenborgian church," is there any more information about
whether Lois was an active Swedenborgian?

Thanks in advance for the help.

-Craig S.
Alcoholic

Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2227 ArtSheehan
RE: Singleness of Purpose Singleness of Purpose 2/23/2005 9:19:00 PM

The Washington Temperance Society

In April 1840, six drinking friends in Baltimore, MD formed the
“Washington Temperance Society” and later became known as the
“Washingtonians.”

They required a pledge of total abstinence and attendance at weekly
meetings where members would relate their stories of drunkenness and
recovery. As a body, they recognized no religion or creed. They were
politically neutral and each member was supposed to help alcoholics
who were still drinking.

Over the following years, Washingtonian membership evolved to consist
primarily of non-alcoholic temperance advocates and a large number of
adolescents who were under age 15.

Their membership reached several hundred thousand but the number of
alcoholics in the mix was likely well under 150,000.

As the membership makeup changed, sentiments shifted away from
reforming (or helping) alcoholics, to pursuing a legal means of
prohibiting alcohol. Washingtonian practices came to be viewed as
outmoded and interest in them faded. There was no sudden or massive
collapse. They simply faded out of existence over time.

Some claim that issues such as Washingtonian involvement in religion,
politics and abolition of slavery led to their downfall. While there
were some incidents of this, there is not much compelling evidence to
support the conclusion that it played any real significant role in the
Washingtonian’s downfall.

The root cause of the Washingtonian’s downfall appears to be their
major departure from their original membership makeup (of all
alcoholics) and their major departure from their original primary
purpose (of one alcoholic trying to help another alcoholic).

It’s a powerful lesson on the importance of AA’s Traditions.

________________________________________
From: WCompWdsUnl@aol.com [mailto:WCompWdsUnl@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:40 AM
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Singleness of Purpose


Could anyone provide me with any related history about how the
principle of 
Singleness of Purpose was adopted by the early A.A. members.  Who?
When?  Why?
Under what circumstances?  Were there any members who disagreed, if 
so, why?
etc>

Thank you,

Larry W.
(Atlanta, GA)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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0 -1 0 0
2228 Ken WENTZ
Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/24/2005 2:37:00 AM

Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First edition Big Book would be
worth today?

My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine condition & may need to
have it appraised. Any help would be appreciated

Ken W.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2229 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II 2/24/2005 10:51:00 AM

Hi RT,

Not much has been written of the effect of WWII on AA. There is a lot
"between the lines" in *AA comes of Age*. A current scholar, Rich
Dubiel, who is stydying AA styles in Newfoundland, learned that AA got
to that island only after the war.

But what a great topic fow whoever is going to be revising *Not-God*!
And we had better get to that generation fast

ernie

righteousthug wrote:
>
>
> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
> think about it.
>
> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.
>
> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
> diaspora because of the aviation industry.
>
> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.
>
> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
> that WWII had on the spread of AA?
>
> /rt
> 6/14/88
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
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0 -1 0 0
2230 Hugh D. Hyatt
Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg 2/24/2005 10:18:00 AM

As a life-long practicing Swedenborgian, this has been a topic of great
interest to me even from the time before I joined A.A. Some of my fellow
alcoholic Swedenborgians see a profound influence of Swedenborgianism on
Bill W. Personally, I do not. To me it seems, at best, to have been a
minor influence and quite likely more indirect, through Jung and James,
rather than through any connection via Lois's family.

My basis for saying this is simply the lack of any clear Swedenborgian
influence in anything I've seen that Bill W. wrote. I am quite familiar
with the church's doctrines and Emanuel Swedenborg's writings. If they
had had a profound impact on Bill, I would expect him to have wrestled
with a different set of issues than he seemed to.

I don't consider myself an expert on the subject of Swedenborgian
influence on Bill. I did forward the original post to a Swedenborgian
minister who I know has an interest in this subject, having corresponded
with him not too long ago about Susan Cheever's biography and her
mentions of Swedenborg. I'm hoping he will respond with something I can
forward to this list.

> P.S. For those who haven't heard of this group, Emanuel Swedenborg
> (1688-1772) was a Swedish scientist who turned into a mystic and
> visionary in his later years (direct contact with the angels,
> etc.). He insisted that the spiritual realm was more basic than
> the material realm, and that the Universe had a fundamental
> spiritual structure. It's a pantheistic system: everything is
> God, and God is in everything.
>
> Swedenborgianism was one of the ancestors of New Thought (Emmet Fox
> et al.) and similar movements which came later on. The New
> Jerusalem Church (the group which his followers formed) established
> their first congregation in the United States at Baltimore in 1792,
> and there are still about 40,000 Swedenborgians worldwide. I've
> seen their place in Boston.

This is a fair summary, except for the allegation that it's a pantheistic
system. While Swedenborg's writings seem to me to recognize an certain
immanence of god (and not every -- maybe even very few -- Swedenborgians
would agree with me on that), the primary doctrine Swedenborg taught was
that Jesus Christ is the one and only god of the universe, spiritual and
natural. He identified Jesus as the incarnation in the natural world of
the Jewish god, Yahweh or Jehovah.

Swedenborg vehemently opposed the division of god into three persons and
the Protestant doctrine of faith alone. "Faith without works is dead" is
a very Swedenborgian thing to say, but Swedenborg himself averred that
the book of James was *not* a part of the Word of God, i.e. not a
divinely inspired book that belonged in the Christian canon. His list
included only five books of the New Testament: the four gospels and
Revelation.
--
Hugh H.
Bryn Athyn, PA

How can you expect to govern a country that
has two hundred and forty-six kinds of cheese?
-- Charles de Gaulle

0 -1 0 0
2231 Dolores Rinecker
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II 2/24/2005 3:56:00 PM

Hi, I am interested in getting more history about the Servicemen who were
stationed in West Germany right after the WWII. I have put some history
together and am interested in getting more. The first meetings were held in
Frankfurt in 1948. All the early groups were Loner groups. Those men were
very influencial in getting english speaking AA going here on the Continent. I
have put together a short history of the history over here and if you are
interested I can send a copy to you. Bill W. was asked to speak at the
Wiesbaden Round-up in 1962 but "graciosly declined". I am looking for more
history to fill in the empty spaces-years. Hope to hear from you. Yours in
AA Dolores R.





"righteousthug" <righteousthug@dellmail.com> schrieb:
>
>
>
> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
> think about it.
>
> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.
>
> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
> diaspora because of the aviation industry.
>
> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.
>
> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
> that WWII had on the spread of AA?
>
> /rt
> 6/14/88
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2232 Tommy
Information Needed for Big Book Column Inventory History Information Needed for Big Book Column Inventory History 2/24/2005 5:16:00 PM

Hi everyone,

I am searching for any information on the Creation of the 4th step
inventory used in the Big Book,the column one.I have noticed
liabilities and assest checklist in articles,personal stories in the
Big Book,Grapevine articles,and from speakers themselves.The creation
of the column inventory remains a mystery to me.I would appriciate any
information I could get.Thanks for your help.
Tommy H.
N.Carolina

0 -1 0 0
2233 Pete
Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/24/2005 9:39:00 PM

Ken,

Five years ago I was offered a 1st edition 1st printing Big Book signed by
Bill Wilson. Bill wrote a flap message in the book to "My Dear Pete" in
1951. Looks like the Pete he signed the book for was an AA delegate. As my
name is Pete, I got hooked and bought it after some research.

First, I showed the book to a rare book collector who is in the program and
offered to pay him to appraise the book. He did not charge me and said the
book and message looked valid to him and he said it was simply worth what I
was willing to pay. The bottom third of the flap page had been replaced with
a new piece of paper and he said this is common as many times there was an
Al-Anon message there from Lois and that folks removed and saved those
messages for a number of reasons. He said there simply are not enough of the
early books selling to establish a price structure and he could not price
mine.

Then the book seller, Earl H., an excellent AA archivist in Oklahoma found
some personal letters written in 1961 from a Howard B. to a George (both
delegates) mentioning the Pete B. on the flap of my book that gave good
insight into some of the AA issues of the day for the delegates.

Earl also said he had the book pages treated so that they would not crack
and they are soft and flexible today. The binding had also been repaired. So
I felt I knew who the owned the book and who restored it and that Bill had
written in it. And Earl said there were 4,650 books printed in the first
printing.

My web research in 1999 showed that a number of 1st edition books were being
sold abroad and that the prices were increasing dramatically. There was a
value at that time of about $2,500 for a good condition 1st edition 1st
printing book. I had trouble finding more than a few for sale at that time.
The prices looked like they doubled if Bill had signed the book and the
price doubled if it had an original dust cover because most original buyers
ripped off the bright red/yellow jacket and threw it away. There is a laser
copy reproduction of the original dust jacket that is on my book.

Last year I color photo copied the inside message and the Contents and sent
it to the curator at Stepping Stones to see what she thought of the Bill
Wilson signature and the message and the book. The signature actually reads
Bill Wilson. She said she had never seen a Bill Wilson signature on a book
as he always signed them just Bill. She felt (after years of seeing Bill's
writings) the handwriting was Bill's on my book from the "My Dear Pete" to
the "Bill" but that someone else had added Wilson and I believe she is
correct. She also said I have a good book and to enjoy and treasure it. She
knew of no easy way to place a value on the book or any of the early Big
Books.

This book fired my interest in AA history and membership in this group. It
somehow gives me a connection I needed to Bill as I read it and share it
with others. Recently I spent some time at Stepping Stones and read all
available on the last 60 days of Bill's life and got to see his Big Book. He
had penciled in on the stories in the CONTENTS who was in and out of future
printings - I assume based on sobriety.

Not sure why you need it appraised, but enjoy and treasure it and keep on
sharing it with all interested.

Peace,

Pete K.
PS: Below is a current listing from AbeBooks.com

Alcoholics Anonymous
BILL WILSON]

Price: US$ 20000.00 [Convert Currency]
Shipping: [Rates and Speeds]

Book Description: New York: Works Publishing Company, 1939. Half-title
+ TP + v-viii + half-title + 1-400 + 3 blank leaves, large Octavo. First
Edition, First Printing wth the Original Dust Jacket. " A rare book despite
a press run of 4,650 copies. FIRST PRINTING ISSUE POINTS: Jacket spine and
inside front flap do not have a printing number The binding is red - the
only issue in that color There is gilt lettering on the front cover and the
spine The title page states: "How More Than One Hundred Men Have Recovered
From Alcoholism". Page 154, line 29: "abberations" misspelled Page 234, line
27: repeats line 26 Dust jacket is a bit faded on spine and very slightly
worn an torn. There are some old tape discolorations along the front edge of
the dust jacket, the rear edge of the dust jacket and in the lower left
corner of the rear panel. There is an old library label affixed to the lower
portion of the spine with "616.86 / AAt" written on it. Nevertheless, this a
VERY honest dust jacket. The book has been dustjacketed throughout its life
with bright and completely intact gilt lettering on the front cover and the
spine. The book has three names neatly written on the front flyleaf: "Dr. R.
S. Bookhammer" / "Reve. A. F Greene" / "Rodney Elder". Otherwise, a bright,
clean and totally unmarked copy. ADDITIONAL PHOTOS AVAILABLE UPON REQUEST.
Bookseller Inventory #000120

Bookseller: Athena Rare Books ABAA (Fairfield, CT, U.S.A.)




----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken WENTZ" <ayceeman@msn.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st Edition, 7th printing



> Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First edition Big Book would
> be worth today?
>
> My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine condition & may need
> to have it appraised. Any help would be appreciated
>
> Ken W.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2234 Charles Knapp
WWII & AA in Calif WWII & AA in Calif 2/25/2005 2:16:00 AM

Hello from rainy California

Here in Southern California W.W.II had an indirect effect on the growth of
AA. The first meeting in Southern California was held December 19, 1939 in
Los Angeles. It was started and run by two non-alcoholics. The first real
meeting run by alcoholics took place March 1940 in the Cecil Hotel in
downtown LA. So you might say at that time there were 2 groups and approx.
10 members. Within one year there were 8 groups and approx. 500 members in
the Southern California. By 1945 the AA population grew to 30 groups and
2,000 members. Interviews of early members contribute the growth to three
things: (1) rapid transportation with the scarcity of automobiles owned by
alcoholics still licensed to drive and (2) the rationing of gasoline due to
World War II. (3) 1941 Saturday Evening Post article.

Up until about April 1941, the Friday night meeting was the only meeting
around. Some members would drive 2 hour one way just to attend the meeting
that was held in the Cecil hotel. Keep in mind there were no freeways back
then. Many of these members paid very close attention on how the meeting was
run and after just a few meeting they tried staring meeting in their
hometowns so they would not have to make that drive each week and use up
their rations.

After the Saturday Evening Post article cane out in March 1941, the New York
office forwarded inquires that came in from all over Southern California to
the Cecil Hotel meeting. At the end of the of the meeting each week those
in attendance were ask if any one was from Palm Springs or San Bernardino,
or from this city or that city. If you raised your hand and gave the town
you were from, you were give a stack of letters told to contact these people
from your city and tell them about AA. Almost all held at least one open
meeting in their town to introduce possible alcoholics to AA. As a result
weekly meeting sprang up almost over night.

Hope this helps

Charles from California

0 -1 0 0
2235 corafinch
Re: Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg Bill W, Carl Jung, Willam James, and Emanuel Swedenborg 2/25/2005 8:50:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "courtautomation" <courtautomation@e...>
wrote:

>
> I am currently researching influences of Emanuel Swedenborg on AA
> history. I've heard that Carl Jung was a Swedenborgian, and I am
> generally very interested in Carl Jung influences on early and
> current AA thinking. Same goes for Willam James.

With regard to Jung, Swedenborg seems to have increased his respect for modes of
understanding that operate outside of everyday consciousness. Jung's thinking
about
"exceptional experiences" derives in part from the theories of Swedenborg.

In Mel B's book on spiritual roots, New Wine, he does not mention Swedenborg but
he
does write about Jung's theory of synchronicity. I'm not sure if Mel B thinks
that the theory
itself was influential with early AA's, or if it is simply a better explanation
than
"coincidence" for some of the occurances in AA's early years.

Synchronicity is a Jungian theory of acausal connection. Here is what Frank
McLynn, a
Jung biographer, says about the concept:

"In its simplest manifestation, synchronicity involved the coincidence of a
psychic state
with a corresponding and more or less simultaneous external event taking place
outside
the observer's field of perception, at a distance, and only verifiable
afterwards. A famous
example, often cited by Jung, was that of Emanuel Swedenborg. In 1759 he was
staying
with friends in Gothenburg. At 6 PM on a Saturday evening in July he had a
vision of the
great fire that broke out that night in Stockholm. He described the course of
the fire in
detail to his friends, and when couriers arrived from Stockholm on Monday and
Tuesday
with the news,his account was confirmed in every detail. When asked how he had
known,
he replied that the angels had told him."

Immanuel Kant wrote a short book about Swedenborg, Dreams of a Spirit-Seeker,
which
Jung read during the time (in his early career) when he was most interested in
psychic
phenomena. That is apparently where he read the accont about the fire, not
through
reading Swedenborg himself. So it appears that Swedenborg was an influence,
although
minor.

0 -1 0 0
2236 george cleveland
Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 2/25/2005 11:12:00 PM

Ken,

Probably the most up to date idea of true value would
be in the realm of eBay. They always have a variety of
first editions for sale. Tracking prices over a week
or two would give you a pretty good idea. A true first
first is a pretty significant item. Even more so if it
has the original dust jacket and clutch the pearls
honey if there's a notable signature.

A suggestion would be to put the future of the book to
group conscience with an eye to the traditions and see
what you come up with. Many states have active
archivists who might be able to help.

Early editions of the BB are wonderful things. It's a
tangible link with a past that has given a future to
so many. BUT it IS a THING and a thing of value. Many
big resentments have been spawned over much less.

Good luck!

George

PS-I once got a first fourteenth at a garage sale for
twenty five cents. One of my best scrounging days
ever!


--- Ken WENTZ <ayceeman@msn.com> wrote:

>
> Does anyone know how much a "First Printing " First
> edition Big Book would be worth today?
>
> My home group owns one in very good, almost pristine
> condition & may need to have it appraised. Any help
> would be appreciated
>
> Ken W.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/

0 -1 0 0
2237 Arkie Koehl
Re: WWII & AA in Calif WWII & AA in Calif 2/26/2005 7:20:00 PM

Thanks, Charles, for the accurate wording ("The first meeting in
Southern California"). "Pass It On" incorrectly states that LA was the
location of first meeting on the "west coast." On November 21st, 1939,
an AA meeting was held in the Clift Hotel in San Francisco. Ray W., a
New York member, was in SF on a business trip, and had made a contact
with Ted. C., an alcoholic resident at the Duboce Park boarding house
of Zilpa Oram. Ms. Oram had heard about AA on the radio (the Heatter
broadcast?) and had written to the NY office in an effort to get some
help for her tenant.

Arkie
Honolulu

On Feb 24, 2005, at 21:16, Charles Knapp wrote:
>
> Hello from rainy California
>
> Here in Southern California W.W.II had an indirect effect on the
> growth of
> AA. The first meeting in Southern California was held December 19,
> 1939 in
> Los Angeles. It was started and run by two non-alcoholics. The first
> real
> meeting run by alcoholics took place March 1940 in the Cecil Hotel in
> downtown LA. So you might say at that time there were 2 groups and
> approx.
> 10 members. Within one year there were 8 groups and approx. 500
> members in
> the Southern California.

0 -1 0 0
2238 John G
Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/27/2005 10:58:00 PM

I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some commentaries on
them.

I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual practices, and
the practices of AA.

Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

Thanks....

John G.



FYI, here are a few gnostic links:

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8
-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8
-2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2239 Tom Hickcox
As Bill Sees It/3rd Step Prayer As Bill Sees It/3rd Step Prayer 2/27/2005 11:43:00 AM

A lingering mystery for me has been why the editors of As Bill Sees It
changed the word "victory" to "transcendence" on p. 210, which has the
paragraph containing the Third Step Prayer and an edited version of the
following sentence.

Bill warns us in the Foreword, "Because the quotations used were lifted out
of their original context, it has been necessary in the interest of clarity
to edit, and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them," but I do not see a
need for this change of words.

What was the justification for it?

Tommy in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
2240 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/28/2005 11:09:00 AM

Hi John,

No, I do not know of any AA connections with gnosticism, but AA lore and
some of Bill W's comments in the early 1960s suggest that whenever AA
got into a new area, especially in Asia, and some member explained the
12 Steps, the religious leaders of the region would say, "Yes, that is
what we have always believed and thought." Since many gnostic teachings
were close to early Christian beliefs, what you say is not surprising.

Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it in
"") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.
There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it
seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of
identification. Anyone out there who might put me in email contact with
an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the stories
of Islamic AAs?

One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were "adapted
to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that faith
to have been able to understand his follow-up.

ernie kurtz


John G wrote:

>
> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some commentaries on
> them.
>
> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual practices, and
> the practices of AA.
>
> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?
>
> Thanks....
>
> John G.
>
>
>
> FYI, here are a few gnostic links:
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> -1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> -2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here
>
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cs2c8qa/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grphea\
lth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109672995/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netfl\
ix.com/Default?mqso=60190075
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>
>
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0 -1 0 0
2241 Arkie Koehl
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/28/2005 3:22:00 PM

On Feb 28, 2005, at 6:09, Ernest Kurtz wrote:

> Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it
> in "") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.

> There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it
> seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of
> identification.  Anyone out there who might put me in email contact
> with an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the
> stories of Islamic AAs?
>
> One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were
> "adapted to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that
> faith to have been able to understand his follow-up.

I duly Googled the site and found this rather detailed rationale for
the deletion of the phrase:

------------------

"Millati Islami Step Five     

5. We admitted to Allah and to ourselves the exact nature of our
wrongs.

 Having had the experience of thoroughly working through the 12 steps
of Alcoholics Anonymous several times, we can say from our own
experience, that we, in Millati Islami, do understand why in Islam,
Muslims are not to go about advertising their faults to other people.

 We have had personal experience and have heard of others who have
shared their personal stories with, what was believed to be a trusted
person, only to later hear some of the most private details of their
life being discussed publicly. And we are well aware of the AA saying
that says we are as sick as our secrets, and this is not without some
validity.

 In Islam, there is no equivalent to the confessional of other faiths.
Or rather, it should be said that we confess our wrongs to and beg for
forgiveness from Allah alone, Who already knows our defects. We also
are required to mend our ways, to repent, and to do good deeds. Our
belief as taught by Rasulillah (the Messenger of God)(pbuh) is that one
sin equals one sin, and we are rewarded several times over for the one
good deed that we do. This is indeed mercy from the only One that can
dispense mercy, Ar-Rahman (Most Merciful), Allah.

 It is also viewed as a good deed for one brother to cover another
brother’s (or sister’s) faults. This does not mean to not share a
guiding word with any of our straying friends. It simply means that we
do not broadcast theirs or our wrongs to anyone. The reason for this is
to not allow justification for doing wrong to grow from having heard of
so and so doing wrong. And then saying “well so and so has not been
struck down dead from his wrong. If he was forgiven, then I will be
forgiven also”

 Of course there is a difficulty with this step, because the Big Book
of Alcoholics Anonymous says on page 72-73 that we must tell someone
our entire life story if we are to stay sober. How can these two
contrary views be reconciled is the question?  I would say with common
sense we have our answer. In our faith of Islam we have brothers and
sisters that we are close to. Or I should say we should make it our
business to get close to the Ummah (community of believers). It is a
command of Allah that we stand together as one unit. There is not much
witnessed of great harmony among the Ummah today because of outside
influences and of varying schools of thought, but as recovering
Muslims, we have no choice but to tighten our ranks. We NEED each
other. We NEED to share our experience and hope with each other. We
NEED to strengthen and understand each other. It is in this way that we
relieve and assist each other, where Allah allows us, in staying clean
and sober. We then fulfill part of our Islamic responsibility and the
command of Allah to stay unified and not allow division to appear in
our ranks.

Under these life and death circumstances of active drug addiction and
the very real need to stay drug-free, there is no one that we should be
closer to, besides Allah and His Messenger (pbuh), than to each
recovering/repentant Millati Islami brother or sister. To share our
experience strength and hope with each other, in Millati Islami, is our
Step Five.

--------

Arkie
Honolulu

0 -1 0 0
2242 Alex H.
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/28/2005 7:10:00 PM

> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some
> commentaries on them.
>
> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual
> practices, and the practices of AA.
>
> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

No. But I've noticed the same thing.

Another mystical movement that formed around the same time is
called Kabbalah. It is Jewish mysticism. If you follow it you
will soon find that it sounds a lot like AA spiritual
principles. It is also a lot different in a number of ways just
as Gnosticism is different from AA spiritual principles in a
number of critical ways. The reason is that AA spiritual
principles are not a complete spiritual system. They are general
spiritual principles that can be found in any number of
religious disciplines. For instance... try reading the book "9
1/2 Mystics". It is a sort of biography of several contemporary
Jewish mystics who approach mysticism from slightly different
ways but have a common thread.

One of my Jewish buddies got sober outside of AA by going to a
group called Chabad. (They are a Jewish outreach sub-group of
Lubuvitch Chasidim. They are mystics.). Chabad runs a program
for getting off of drugs and alcohol. Not incidentally, Chabad
uses the spiritual principles outlined in Kabbalah (Jewish
mysticism). Brittany Spears and Madonna have been exploring
Kabbalah. [My own view on their spiritual journey deleted].

One should use caution when following mysticism and especially
Kabbalah. As it says in the Big Book, as one follows this
spiritual program one will begin to depend on intuition, but one
should use caution or one can be misled into all sort of absurd
action.

That is truth.

Kabbalah is quite similar is Islamic mysticism I am told.

Regarding the question of why an Islamic 12 step group would
leave out the part in Step 5 about sharing one's character
defects with one other person, I have a pretty good guess. In
Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt
after a month of reflection as to our character defects much
like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes
place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person
is required.

So... it is not the rabbi's business whether you have actually
made the amends or not. It is presumed that G-d knows your heart
and that you are not a liar. Thus, to present yourself as if you
have made amends, presumes that you have reflected properly upon
your character defects and not lied about making amends. To say
that another human being (unconnected to the amends) is required
to attain either reflection or amends, will be viewed as
suspect. After all... isn't G-d powerful enough? Since He *is*
powerful enough, then why is another person (other than the
parties directly involved) required? Well... He is powerful
enough, but at that point (of step 5) we have not yet
established a reliable connection with G-d. (my opinion). We
need someone else as a checkpoint. While I think I am correct in
my opinion, I recognize that other religious people might
disagree and see the requirement of another person in the
process as suggesting that G-d is not all powerful and thus be
tempted to remove that requirement.

Alex H.

0 -1 0 0
2243 Barry Murtaugh
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 2/28/2005 4:46:00 PM

John and Ernie,

Contact Bart Ehrmann at UNC or Elaine Pagels at Princeton.

They may very well have some sources or guides to the downdrift of
gnostic spirituality into modern times.

Certainly Karen Anderson in several of her works shows how it reveals
itself in strains of sufism and mystic judaism not to mention non
canonical early christian writings.

Barry Murtaugh
Barrington

>
> Hi John,
>
> No, I do not know of any AA connections with gnosticism, but AA lore and
> some of Bill W's comments in the early 1960s suggest that whenever AA
> got into a new area, especially in Asia, and some member explained the
> 12 Steps, the religious leaders of the region would say, "Yes, that is
> what we have always believed and thought." Since many gnostic teachings
> were close to early Christian beliefs, what you say is not surprising.
>
> Just now I am trying to investigate why the Millati Islami (Google it in
> "") have left "and to another human being" out of their Fifth Step.
> There are other small changes, but that one confuses me, because it
> seems to me that one big way of growing in the program is by way of
> identification. Anyone out there who might put me in email contact with
> an Islamic AA member -- or with a book/article that contains the stories
> of Islamic AAs?
>
> One individual I contacted on the web told me the 12 Steps were "adapted
> to Muslim sensibilities," but I'm afraid I am too ignorant of that faith
> to have been able to understand his follow-up.
>
> ernie kurtz
>
>
> John G wrote:
>
> >
> > I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some
commentaries on
> > them.
> >
> > I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual
practices, and
> > the practices of AA.
> >
> > Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?
> >
> > Thanks....
> >
> > John G.
> >
> >
> >
> > FYI, here are a few gnostic links:
> >
> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
> >
> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
> >
> > http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm
> >
> >
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> > -1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> >
> >
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375703160/qid=1109476701/sr=8
> > -2/ref=pd_csp_2/104-4642935-1327921?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > click here
> >
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12cs2c8qa/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=grphea\
lth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1109672995/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netfl\
ix.com/Default?mqso=60190075
>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Barry Murtaugh
jbmcmc@voyager.net

0 -1 0 0
2244 Lee Nickerson
Chip Club Chip Club 3/1/2005 11:06:00 AM

Where and when did the "Chip Club" start?

0 -1 0 0
2245 Lee Nickerson
The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/1/2005 11:07:00 AM

When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

0 -1 0 0
2246 Jim Blair
Re: Chip Club Chip Club 3/2/2005 2:59:00 AM

Lee asked
Where and when did the "Chip Club" start?

Chips, Medallions and Birthdays

The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of
the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the
history on them.

Sister lgnatia, the nun who helped Dr. Bob get the hospitalization program
started at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron was the first person to use
medallions in Alcoholics Anonymous. She gave the drunks who were leaving St.
Thomas after a five day dry out a Sacred Heart Medallion and instructed them
that the acceptance of the medallion signified a commitment to God, to A.A.
and to recovery and that if they were going to drink, they had a
responsibility to return the medallion to her before drinking.

The sacred heart badges had been used prior to A.A. by the Father Matthew
Temperance Movement of the 1840s and the Pioneers an Irish Temperance
Movement of the 1890s.

The practice of sobriety chips in A.A. started with a Group in Elmira, N.Y.
in 1947 and has grown from there.

The celebration of birthdays came from the Oxford Group where they
celebrated the anniversary of their spiritual rebirth. As we have a problem
with honesty, A.A. chose the anniversary of the date of our last drink.

Early celebrations of birthdays resulted in people getting drunk and Dr.
Harry Tiebout was asked to look at the problem and he commented on this
phenomenon in an articled titled "When the Big "I" Becomes Nobody", (AAGV,
Sept. 65)

"Early on in A.A., I was consulted about a serious problem plaguing the
local group. The practice of celebrating a year's sobriety with a birthday
cake had resulted in a certain number of the members getting drunk within a
short period after the celebration. It seemed apparent that some could not
stand prosperity. I was asked to settle between birthday cakes or no
birthday cakes. Characteristically, I begged off, not from shyness but from
ignorance. Some three or four years later, A.A. furnished me the answer. The
group no longer had such a problem because, as one member said, "We
celebrate still, but a year's sobriety is now a dime a dozen. No one gets
much of a kick out of that anymore."

The AAGV carried many articles on chips and cakes and the following is a
brief summary of some.

Feb. 1948, Why All the Congratulations? "When we start taking bows (even on
anniversaries) we bow ourselves right into the cuspidor."

July, 1948. Group To Give Oscar for Anniversaries.
The Larchmont Group of Larchmont, N.Y. gives a cast bronze camel mounted on
a mahogany base to celebrate 1st., 5th and 10th anniversaries.
"The camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e.,
to live for 24 hours without a drink."

August 1948. The Artesta, N.Mex. Group awards marbles to all members. If you
are caught without your marbles, you are fined 25 cents. This money goes
into the Foundation Fund.

June 1953, We operate a poker chip club in the Portland Group (Maine). We
have poker chips of nine colors of which the white represents the probation
period of one month. If he keeps his white chip for one month he is
presented with a red chip for one month's sobriety.
The chips continue with blue for two months, black for three, green for
four, transparent blue for five, amber for six, transparent purple for nine
months and a transparent clear chip for one year. We have our chips stamped
with gold A.A. letters.
Also at the end of the year and each year thereafter, we present them with a
group birthday card signed by all members present at the meeting.

January 1955, Charlotte, N.C. "When a man takes "The Long Walk" at the end
of a meeting, to pick up a white chip, he is admitting to his fellow men
that he has finally accepted the precepts of A.A. and is beginning his
sobriety. At the end of three months he exchanges his white chip for a red
one. Later, a handsome, translucent chip of amber indicates that this new
member has enjoyed six months of a new way of life. The nine month chip is a
clear seagreen and a blue chip is given for the first year of sobriety. In
some groups a sponsor will present his friend with an engraved silver chip,
at the end of five years clear thinking and clean living.

March 1956, The One Ton Poker Chip. Alton, Illinois. Author gave friend a
chip on his first day eight years ago (1948) and told him to accept it in
the spirit of group membership and that if he wanted to drink to throw the
chip away before starting drinking.

October 1956, Bangor Washington. Article about a woman who sits in a bar to
drink the bartender sees her white chips and asks what it is. She tells him.
He throws her out as he does not want an alcoholic in his bar. She calls
friend.

April 1957, Cape Cod, Mass. Group recognizes 1st, 5th and 15th
anniversaries. Person celebrating leads meeting. Person is presented with a
set of wooden carved plaques with the slogans.

July 1957, New Brunswick, Canada. Birthday Board. Member contributes one
dollar for each year of sobriety.

July 1957, Oregon. Person is asked to speak and is introduced by his or her
sponsor. The wife, mother, sister or other relative brings up a cake. The
Group sings Happy Birthday. The wife gives a two or thee minute talk.


April 1959, Patterson, N.J. People are asked to give "three month pin
talks."

And that's a little bit of info on chips, cakes and medallions.

0 -1 0 0
2247 Jim Blair
Re: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 3:11:00 AM

Lee asked

When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What about
the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

The following is a letter by Bill W. on the use of the Lord's Prayer in AA.

The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the
International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and
join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first
time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the
Toronto experience.
---------------------------------------------------------

A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord's Prayer At A.A.
Meetings

April 14, 1959
Dear Russ,
Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time out of
the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon type of flu
that has been around here in New York. We are okay now, however, but I did
want to explain my delay.
Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A. meeting.
This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were influential in
the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA. Comes of Age what the
connection of these people in A.A. really was. I think saying the Lord's
Prayer was a custom of theirs following the close of each meeting. Therefore
it quite easily got shifted into a general custom among us.
Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering. Also,
it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian document.
Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the
arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a little farfetched. It is
also true that most A.A.s believe in some kind of God and that communication
and strength is obtainable through His grace. Since this is the general
consensus it seems only right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the
Lord's Prayer be used in connection with our meetings. It does not seem
necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to
the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel.
However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to join
him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so. The worst
that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to it. This is
doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage of progress.
So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your letter
made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.
Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the friendship of
you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross one of these days.
Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson


WGW/ni Mr. Russ
From the A.A. Archives in New York

0 -1 0 0
2248 Robert Stonebraker
RE: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/1/2005 11:02:00 PM

Dear Lee and Group,
The "Lord's Prayer" carried over from the Oxford Group and was used at the
first AA meeting that Clarence Snyder started at Abby Golrick's home; 2345
Stillman Rd, Cleveland Hts., OH, on May 11th, 1939. For verification
please read page 261 of "Dr. Bob And The Good old Timers."

Bob S.





-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Nickerson [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:08 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer



When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?










Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2249 righteousthug
Re: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 12:23:00 AM

From - http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabwlordprayer.html

A Letter From Bill W. Regarding The Lord's Prayer In A.A.
From the A.A. Archives in New York



----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

April 14, 1959
Dear Russ,

Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time
out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon
type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now,
however, but I did want to explain my delay.

Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A.
meeting.

This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were
influential in the early days of A.A. You have probably noted in AA.
Comes of Age what the connection of these people in A.A. really was.
I think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the
close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a
general custom among us.

Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary A.A. gathering.
Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a
Christian document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread
use and recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems
to be a little farfetched. It is also true that most A.A.s believe in
some kind of God and that communication and strength is obtainable
through His grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only
right that at least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used
in connection with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer
to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent
of completely hiding our light under a bushel.

However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to
join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so.
The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen
to it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their
stage of progress.

So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your
letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.

Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the
friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross
one of these days.

Devotedly yours,
Bill Wilson

WGW/ni
Mr. Russ



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Nickerson"
<snowlily@g...> wrote:
>
>
> When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
> about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?

0 -1 0 0
2250 Bruce Lallier
Re: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 7:34:00 AM

I first remember the holding of hands from the early to mid 70's in Ct.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@gwi.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:07 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer


>
>
>
> When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
> about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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0 -1 0 0
2251 Ken WENTZ
Re: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 7:47:00 AM

The practice of saying the " LORDS PRAYER " at the end of the meetings & holding
hands came from the meetings that were held first, at the home of T. Henry &
Clarace Williams in Akron, and at Dr. Bob's house. They would read from the
bible then ( there was no " Big Book " ) and conclude with a prayer they were
all familiar with. From Dr. Bob & the good old -timers & Pass it
on...........................Ken W

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2252 ArtSheehan
RE: The Lord''s Prayer The Lord''s Prayer 3/2/2005 12:03:00 PM

Hi Lee

I found the information below on the Lord’s Prayer and its place in
AA.

Cheers

Arthur

A Letter From Bill Wilson About The Use Of The Lord’s Prayer At A.A.
Meetings

April 14, 1959

Dear Russ,

Am right sorry for my delay in answering. Lois and I were a long time
out of the country and this was followed by an attack of the marathon
type of flu that has been around here in New York. We are okay now,
however, but I did want to explain my delay.

Now about the business of adding the Lord's Prayer to each A.A.
meeting.

This practice probably came from the Oxford Groups who were
influential in the early days of AA. You have probably noted in AA.
Comes of Age what the connection of these people in AA really was. I
think saying the Lord's Prayer was a custom of theirs following the
close of each meeting. Therefore it quite easily got shifted into a
general custom among us.

Of course there will always be those who seem to be offended by the
introduction of any prayer whatever into an ordinary AA gathering.
Also, it is sometimes complained that the Lord's Prayer is a Christian
document. Nevertheless this Prayer is of such widespread use and
recognition that the arguments of its Christian origin seems to be a
little farfetched. It is also true that most AAs believe in some kind
of God and that communication and strength is obtainable through His
grace. Since this is the general consensus it seems only right that at
least the Serenity Prayer and the Lord's Prayer be used in connection
with our meetings. It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings
of our agnostic and atheist newcomers to the extent of completely
hiding our light under a bushel.

However, around here, the leader of the meeting usually asks those to
join him in the Lord's Prayer who feel that they would care to do so.
The worst that happens to the objectors is that they have to listen to
it. This is doubtless a salutary exercise in tolerance at their stage
of progress.

So that's the sum of the Lord's Prayer business as I recall it. Your
letter made me wonder in just what connection you raise the question.

Meanwhile, please know just how much Lois and I treasure the
friendship of you both. May Providence let our paths presently cross
one of these days.

Devotedly yours,

Bill Wilson

On page 293 of “As Bill Sees it.” It states:

“He can do this because he now accepts a God who is All - and who
loves all. When he says, ‘Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be
Thy name,’ he deeply and humbly means it …”

General Service Conference Advisory Actions:

1952: all Conference sessions are to open with the Serenity Prayer and
close with the Lord’s Prayer.

1954: the General Service Conference will end with the recitation of
the Lord’s Prayer.

1975: convention meetings will open with the Serenity Prayer and close
with the Lord’s Prayer.

On page 16 of “The AA Group Pamphlet” it states:

Whether open or closed, AA group meetings are conducted by AA members,
who determine the format of their meetings. [Page 19] many meetings
close with members reciting the Lord’s Prayer or the Serenity Prayer.

_____

From: Lee Nickerson [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:08 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Lord's Prayer


When did we start using the Lord's Prayer? Where did it start? What
about the ritual of holding hands while this is being recited?











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0 -1 0 0
2253 lester112985
1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/2/2005 12:56:00 PM

Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st
printing Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
Thanks
Lester

0 -1 0 0
2254 gentle_bear
AA geographical membership rates AA geographical membership rates 3/2/2005 5:13:00 PM

Hi Folks,

My recent question re AA membership prompted me to wonder what the rates of
AA membership was in various countries around the world.

I was able to calculate the following.

These ratios are expressed as a percentage of the total population of a
country.

Australia - 0.150%
USA - 0.402%
Canada - 0.297%
New Zealand - 0.095%

Naturally the USA and Canada have high rates as AA started in North America.

The New Zealand membership census is on their website.

The Australian membership is an estimate - 30,000. Don't quote me - its
based on growth from a statistic about 10 years old.

Can anyone add to these figures?

The next question is - How can we explain these differences, if at all?

In Fellowship

Robin F.

Brisbane

Australia.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2255 George Cleveland
Now about sex Now about sex 3/2/2005 10:56:00 PM

Hopefully that message header won't get this thrown into the spam
file.

The third part of the 4th Step Inventory is about our sex conduct. It
is about our CONDUCT, not the number of notches on the bedpost. In the
instructions for the Resentment portion, the alcoholic is asked to
look at their part in the resentment and answer where they were
selfish, dishonest, self seeking and afraid. In the sex inventory, we
are given a huge magnifying glass and asked to answer 9 questions
instead of four.

Anyone who has done this knows what a transforming process it is and
that it is the jumping off place for the start of the spiritual
awakening that the Big Book says is the whole point of the book.

The reading on sex that begins at the bottom of Page 68 appears to be
a practically perfect manifesto of fairness, directness and, to use
the overused, inclusive.

I have searched the archives here and can't find a reference to the
genesis of this piece and what kind of fallout it may have created. I
am sure that nearly 70 years later, the sex reading raises many
hackles.

I greatly appreciate the thoughtful and sometimes intense research and
scholarship that is evident in this group.

Now....about sex?

George Cleveland

0 -1 0 0
2256 Robert Stonebraker
RE: 1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/3/2005 7:35:00 PM

Dear Lester and Group,

One misprint can be found on page 234 where the second and third lines from
the bottom are repeated, e.g.:

". . . . last evening after I left the car and wondered off into . . . "

". . . . last evening after I left the car and wondered off into . . . "
However, I am not sure whether or not the same misprint occurs in later
printings.

Bob S. from Indiana



1

-----Original Message-----
From: lester112985 [mailto:lgother@optonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:56 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors



Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st
printing Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
Thanks
Lester










Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2257 Robert Stonebraker
Holding hands Holding hands 3/3/2005 8:21:00 PM

Thanks Jim,

Ten years later I was living in Southern California (1975) and the custom of
holding hands was then prevalent at most groups. However, in 1978, I moved
to a mid-sized town, Richmond, Indiana and the practice was not yet in
vogue. But by the early 1980s most of the groups had begun holding hands.
Of course, here I am not talking about the Responsibility Declaration, but
the Lord’s Prayer.

Bob S.

The question of holding hands I have looked into and it appears that at the
International in Toronto in 1965, the attendees were asked to hold hands and
join together as the "Responsibility Declaration" was read for the first
time. Older members seen to recollect that "hand holding" grew out of the
Toronto experience.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2258 Jim Blair
Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/3/2005 8:21:00 PM

Lester wrote

Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing
Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.

Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.

The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition

1st Edition - 1st Printing
- Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
- 29 personal stories.
- Price 3.50$.
- Cover is red, only printing in red.
- Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
- Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
- Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
- 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
- Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
- P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
- Published by Works Publishing Company.

1st Edition - 2nd Printing
- Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- 28 personal stories
- Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
- Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
- Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
- Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
- Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
- Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
- P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
- P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
- P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
- P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
- P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
- P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
- P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
- P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
- P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.

1st Edition - 3rd Printing
- Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
- Cover changed to light blue.
- Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
- P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
- P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
- P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
- P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
- P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
- P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
- P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
- P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
- P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
- P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
- P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
- P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
- P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.

1st Edition - 4th Printing
- Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
- Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
- P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
- P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
- P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
- P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
- P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
- P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
- P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
- P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
- P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
- P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
- P398-L10, members to older members
- P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
- P398-L16, this book, to this book.
- P398-L16, send money to please send money.

1st Edition - 5th Printing
- Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
- Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
- Last Big Book in size.
- Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
- P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
- P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
- P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
- P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.

1st Edition - 6th Printing
- Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
- Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
- Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
- P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
- P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
- P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).

1st Edition - 7th Printing
- Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
- Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
- Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
- P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
- P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
- P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
- P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
- P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
- P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
- P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
- P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
- P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
- P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
- P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
- P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.

1st Edition - 8th Printing
- Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
- P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

1st Edition - 9th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
- P323-L20, Two years to several years.

1st Edition - 10th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.

1st Edition - 11th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
- P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P178-L20, Him to HIM.
- P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
- P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.

1st Edition - 12th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Decreased height by 1/16.

1st Edition - 13th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .

1st Edition - 14th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Reduced in thickness 1/16.

1st Edition - 15th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased in height by 1/16.
- Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.

1st Edition - 16th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.

Last printing of the First Edition.

0 -1 0 0
2259 snowlily
Re: 1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/4/2005 10:20:00 AM

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors


>
>
> Lester wrote
>
> Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing
> Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
>
> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.
>
> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition
>
> 1st Edition - 1st Printing
> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
> - 29 personal stories.
> - Price 3.50$.
> - Cover is red, only printing in red.
> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
> - Published by Works Publishing Company.
>
> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing
> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - 28 personal stories
> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.
>
> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing
> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
> - Cover changed to light blue.
> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.
>
> 1st Edition - 4th Printing
> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
> - P398-L10, members to older members
> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.
> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.
>
> 1st Edition - 5th Printing
> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
> - Last Big Book in size.
> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.
>
> 1st Edition - 6th Printing
> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).
>
> 1st Edition - 7th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.
>
> 1st Edition - 8th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
>
> 1st Edition - 9th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.
>
> 1st Edition - 10th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.
>
> 1st Edition - 11th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.
> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.
>
> 1st Edition - 12th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Decreased height by 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 13th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .
>
> 1st Edition - 14th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 15th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased in height by 1/16.
> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.
>
> 1st Edition - 16th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.
>
> Last printing of the First Edition.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2260 eze_kiel03
Aldous Huxley Aldous Huxley 3/4/2005 12:22:00 PM

I can find many references to Aldous Huxley's claim that AA was the
greatest social movement of the 20th century, but not the original
source. Where and when did he say or write it?

0 -1 0 0
2261 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Fwd: Lords Prayer Fwd: Lords Prayer 3/4/2005 5:35:00 PM

It must have been either late 1972 or in the beginning of 1973 when someone
first reached out in an attempt to hold my hand at the end of the the A.A.
meeting in Philadelphia PA.

Strange enough, this was the same meeting that I had been going to at
least three years and I still don't remember any discussion on the change in
policy. Prior to that night we had always folded our hands in front of us during
the prayer.

Kilroy W.
4021 Club
Philadelphia PA


_____________________________________________________________
A Member of CEOExpressSelect - www.ceoexpress.com

0 -1 0 0
2262 Jim Blair
Re: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/4/2005 9:04:00 PM

Lester wrote

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
2263 Bill Lash
RE: 1st ed, 1st printing errors 1st ed, 1st printing errors 3/4/2005 4:32:00 PM

"Lone Endeavor" (no "The" or "A" in the title) was removed after the first
printing. Namaste!
Just
Love,

Barefoot Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: snowlily [mailto:snowlily@gwi.net]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:20 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors


Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Blair" <jblair@videotron.ca>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 1st ed, 1st printing errors


>
>
> Lester wrote
>
> Can anyone help me in finding out the errors in the 1st ed 1st printing
> Big Book. Or any other traits that authenticate this book.
>
> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.
>
> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition
>
> 1st Edition - 1st Printing
> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."
> - 29 personal stories.
> - Price 3.50$.
> - Cover is red, only printing in red.
> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.
> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.
> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.
> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).
> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.
> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.
> - Published by Works Publishing Company.
>
> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing
> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - 28 personal stories
> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.
> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.
> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.
> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.
> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)
> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.
> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.
> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People
> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.
> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.
> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.
> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."
> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.
>
> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing
> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.
> - Cover changed to light blue.
> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.
> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.
> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.
> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.
> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.
> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.
> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.
> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.
> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.
> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.
> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.
> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.
> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.
> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.
>
> 1st Edition - 4th Printing
> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.
> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.
> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."
> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.
> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."
> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.
> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.
> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.
> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.
> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.
> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.
> - P398-L10, members to older members
> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.
> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.
> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.
>
> 1st Edition - 5th Printing
> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."
> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.
> - Last Big Book in size.
> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."
> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.
> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.
> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.
>
> 1st Edition - 6th Printing
> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).
> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.
> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).
> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.
> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).
>
> 1st Edition - 7th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.
> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.
> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.
> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.
> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.
> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."
> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.
> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937
> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.
> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.
> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.
> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.
> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.
> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.
>
> 1st Edition - 8th Printing
> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.
> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.
>
> 1st Edition - 9th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.
> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.
>
> 1st Edition - 10th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.
>
> 1st Edition - 11th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.
> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.
>
> 1st Edition - 12th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Decreased height by 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 13th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .
>
> 1st Edition - 14th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.
>
> 1st Edition - 15th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased in height by 1/16.
> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.
>
> 1st Edition - 16th Printing
> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.
>
> Last printing of the First Edition.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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0 -1 0 0
2264 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Re: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/4/2005 11:43:00 PM

Sorry, I hit the wrong button, sent the beginning of my draft
on Pat C. (Lone Endeavor Story). Here is what i wanter to say.
Pat C. Read the manuscript and got sober. He wrote bill in NY
and the NY group took up a collection and sent Pat a bus ticket
to NY. They wanted to show off the power of the written
message. In the mean time the big book was in its final hours
before going to press. Ruth Hock who was Bill W.'s and Hank
P.'s sect. in there office in ND. rushed to writer Pats Story.
To their heart break, when the bus from Calf. pulled into the
NY station Pat C. was on the floor drunk. It was too late the
book had gone to press and the story had to stay for that
while.
Kilroy W
4021 Cuub
Philadelphia PA


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0 -1 0 0
2265 Corky Forbes
Re: Fwd: Lords Prayer Fwd: Lords Prayer 3/4/2005 9:35:00 PM

We held hands in our meetings in Tulsa, Oklahoma when I came into the program
May 4,1965.
I don't know when it had become a ritual. There were four groups in Tulsa at
that time.
Corky
----- Original Message -----
From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:35 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Fwd: Lords Prayer



It must have been either late 1972 or in the beginning of 1973 when someone
first reached out in an attempt to hold my hand at the end of the the A.A.
meeting in Philadelphia PA.

Strange enough, this was the same meeting that I had been going to at
least three years and I still don't remember any discussion on the change in
policy. Prior to that night we had always folded our hands in front of us during
the prayer.

Kilroy W.
4021 Club
Philadelphia PA


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0 -1 0 0
2266 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Re: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/4/2005 11:29:00 PM

The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some how got a
copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)

--- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story




Lester wrote

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

Jim








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0 -1 0 0
2267 alev101@aol.com
Re: Gnostic AA...? Gnostic AA...? 3/5/2005 7:12:00 AM

I believe that this comment is untrue.

In Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt
after a month of reflection as to our character defects much
like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes
place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person
is required.

For sins between man and God we, ask God for forgiveness.
For those sins between man and man, we must seek out our man and ask
forgiveness directly.


That is how I explained the 9th step to my parents when I made my formal
direct amends.

Ava
(nice Jewish girl from Brooklyn and sober in AA)

In a message dated 3/1/2005 10:53:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, odat@utj.org
writes:



> I've been reading the Nag Hammadi gnostic gospels and some
> commentaries on them.
>
> I'm struck at times by parallels between gnostic spiritual
> practices, and the practices of AA.
>
> Does anyone know of any past Gnostic connections to AA?

No. But I've noticed the same thing.

Another mystical movement that formed around the same time is
called Kabbalah. It is Jewish mysticism. If you follow it you
will soon find that it sounds a lot like AA spiritual
principles. It is also a lot different in a number of ways just
as Gnosticism is different from AA spiritual principles in a
number of critical ways. The reason is that AA spiritual
principles are not a complete spiritual system. They are general
spiritual principles that can be found in any number of
religious disciplines. For instance... try reading the book "9
1/2 Mystics". It is a sort of biography of several contemporary
Jewish mystics who approach mysticism from slightly different
ways but have a common thread.

One of my Jewish buddies got sober outside of AA by going to a
group called Chabad. (They are a Jewish outreach sub-group of
Lubuvitch Chasidim. They are mystics.). Chabad runs a program
for getting off of drugs and alcohol. Not incidentally, Chabad
uses the spiritual principles outlined in Kabbalah (Jewish
mysticism). Brittany Spears and Madonna have been exploring
Kabbalah. [My own view on their spiritual journey deleted].

One should use caution when following mysticism and especially
Kabbalah. As it says in the Big Book, as one follows this
spiritual program one will begin to depend on intuition, but one
should use caution or one can be misled into all sort of absurd
action.

That is truth.

Kabbalah is quite similar is Islamic mysticism I am told.

Regarding the question of why an Islamic 12 step group would
leave out the part in Step 5 about sharing one's character
defects with one other person, I have a pretty good guess. In
Judaism, one is supposed to make amends to those we have hurt
after a month of reflection as to our character defects much
like the AA program. It is uncanny. However, that amends takes
place between the person we have harmed and G-d. No other person
is required.

So... it is not the rabbi's business whether you have actually
made the amends or not. It is presumed that G-d knows your heart
and that you are not a liar. Thus, to present yourself as if you
have made amends, presumes that you have reflected properly upon
your character defects and not lied about making amends. To say
that another human being (unconnected to the amends) is required
to attain either reflection or amends, will be viewed as
suspect. After all... isn't G-d powerful enough? Since He *is*
powerful enough, then why is another person (other than the
parties directly involved) required? Well... He is powerful
enough, but at that point (of step 5) we have not yet
established a reliable connection with G-d. (my opinion). We
need someone else as a checkpoint. While I think I am correct in
my opinion, I recognize that other religious people might
disagree and see the requirement of another person in the
process as suggesting that G-d is not all powerful and thus be
tempted to remove that requirement.

Alex H.






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0 -1 0 0
2268 ny-aa@att.net
Lone Endeavor Lone Endeavor 3/5/2005 3:02:00 PM

An exchange of letters with a man in California became "Lone
Endeavor" as the last story of the first printing of the first
edition of the Big Book of "Alcoholics Anonymous." The story
was not included in later printings after the man arrived in
New York more than slightly intoxicated.

Did anyone other than Pat C himself verify that he was sober
for as long as he claimed at the time they decided to include
his "Lone Endeavor" story? His mother got the book manuscript
for him. Were there any letters from her saying Pat was sober?
Did they contact the doctors in the state sanitarium?

His letter said, "Six weeks ago I returned from the sanitarium
and your book was here waiting for me. I read, more pored over
it so as not to miss anything. I thought to myself, yes, this
is the only way. God is my only chance. I have prayed before but
I guess not the right way. I have followed out the suggestions
in the book, am happier at this moment than I have been for years.
I'm sure I have found the solution, thanks to ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS."
This does not include an actual sobriety claim like, "I have not
had any alcohol since that day."

He wrote, "I go down to the sanitarium every week for a check-up
and medicine which they give me, just a tonic, no sedative."
Never mind the no sedative part. In 1939, alcohol was a common
ingredient in what was called a tonic. Just what sort of tonic
was he using?

0 -1 0 0
2269 ArtSheehan
RE: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/6/2005 9:58:00 AM

First Edition Big Book - First Printing

On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the first edition of the book
“Alcoholics Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy (equivalent to
$46 today). The printer, Edward Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told
to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large, bulky volume became
known as the Big Book and the name has stuck ever since. The idea
behind the thick and large paper was to convince the alcoholic he was
getting his money’s worth.

The book had 8 Roman and 400 Arabic numbered pages. “The Doctor’s
Opinion” started as page 1 and the basic text ended at page 174. Ray C
(whose Big Book story is “An Artist’s Concept”) designed the “circus
color” dust jacket (and alternate dust jacket).

The manuscript story of an Akron member “Ace Full - Seven - Eleven”
was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes
made to the first drafts of the Steps and text). 29 personal stories
were included: 10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1 from
the west coast (which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and removed from
the book in the second printing).

One of the stories “An Alcoholic’s Wife” was written by non-alcoholic
Marie B from Akron, OH. Dr Bob’s story was originally titled “The
Doctor’s Nightmare” and later changed to “Dr Bob’s Nightmare.”

First Edition Big Book - Second Printing



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second
printing of the first edition Big Book. The term “spiritual
experience” was changed to “spiritual awakening” and the term “as the
result of these steps” was changed to “as the result of those steps.”



Appendix II, “Spiritual Experience” was added to the book. This was
done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and
spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns
Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences were
of the type that the psychologist William James called the
“educational variety.”



The Herbert Spencer quote was added to Appendix II in the second
edition Big Book. It first appeared in the story “An Artists Concept”
by Ray C (who also designed the Big Book’s dust jacket). The Spencer
quote does not appear to be an accurate attribution. No written work
by Spencer can be found containing the quote.



The story “Lone Endeavor” (of Pat C from CA) was removed. It had been
ghost written by Ruth Hock. Pat, who claimed to have sobered up from a
manuscript copy of the Big Book, was invited to NY shortly after the
book was printed and arrived in NY quite drunk.



Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com [mailto:kilroy@ceoexpress.com]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:29 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story




The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some
how got a copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)

--- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story




Lester wrote

Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?

I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.

Jim








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0 -1 0 0
2270 WCompWdsUnl@aol.com
History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. 3/5/2005 10:01:00 PM

Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I
am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in
places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am
interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from
city to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the
"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities.

Thank you.

Larry W.
Atlanta, GA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2271 Roger Wheatley
Re: 1st Edition, 7th printing 1st Edition, 7th printing 3/13/2005 4:03:00 AM

I found this letter dated Feb 1945 which would likely be sent from "Works
Publishing" to the fellowship explaining the paper reduction requirements of the
war effort and the delay. Apparantly we ran out of books at the office waiting
for this delivery. Perhaps as you indicate, it was trimmed down to 5000 copies
to get through the run and catch up on the publishers work.


Box 459 Grand Central Annex

New York 17, New York



February 12, 1945



NEW WAR TIME EDITION OF THE BOOK

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS



Because of the acute shortage of book paper we have repeatedly, on order of the
War Production Board, reduced the weight of the paper used in the book,
Alcoholics Anonymous.

We have now arrived at the point where because of further reductions in paper we
must sharply cut the overall size of the book by trimming margins to a minimum.
Happily we shall still be able to use the same book plates so the type face will
be as readable as ever.

Practically every publisher has long ago been obliged to make these changes so
we hope that AAs everywhere will understand the necessity for them and be glad
of this small additional contribution to the war effort.

Our printers are a badly overworked firm and though this new edition was
arranged for many months ago, we are told there will be some delay on delivery.
We will be out of books by February 15th and will probably not be able to ship
copies of the new war time edition until after March first, how long after we do
not yet know.

I hope you will all be patient if your orders are delayed somewhat. Please be
sure we shall make shipments the moment we can.



WORKS PUBLISHING INC.

BY

Margaret R. Burger (signed)

Margaret R. Burger
Secretary

Keith Dunn <werdunn_99@yahoo.com> wrote:


Greetings. I need some help with some Big book printing history.
The 7th printing of the 1st edition of the Big Book shows a printing
date of Jan. 1945, with a nominal run of 5000. The eighth printing
shows a run of 10,000 1 month later. My experience suggests there
are fewer 7th printing survivors than any other of the 16
printings. I have heard the stories of the warehouse fire in NY, of
the boat sinking carrying a shipment to Australia, and am aware of
the book and movie "The Lost Weekend," and how this stimulated
demand from spouses interested in sobering up their partners, but
the partners weren't ready, and hence disposed of the books. The
book came out in 1944, and the movie in 1945. But, taking into
account WWII, limitations to paper due to the war, and the fact that
the 8th printing followed 1 month later, this suggests to me the 7th
printing probably wasn't a 5000 copy run, but something smaller, and
the resources were funnelled into the 8th printing, to provide more
books (and profits) for AA, and allowed the printer and AA to stay
within government guidelines. Any suggestions as to where to go for
information, or does anyone have any feedback on this?
Love and Service, Keith D

*****
Art, feel free to respond directly, and forward this to anyone who
can be of help. I didn't know if protocol dictated I send this
straight to the "group", or if I could send it to some archivists
directly. I am aware this is pretty "deep." I've done a lot of
research in the archive arena, and have few resources in Nebraska.
Thanks for your help.








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0 -1 0 0
2272 Roger Wheatley
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II Alcoholics Anonymous and World War II 3/13/2005 3:41:00 AM

History Lovers and Dolores,
I have the beginnings of a collection on this topic which includes the early
Grapevine column "Mail Call" which is now available on GV digital archives to
any subscriber. Also we had teh opportunity to interview Pappy, reported as the
oldest living member of AA in Belgium. When I asked him through an interpreter
how AA started in Belgium 50 years ago (they celebrated in 2004) he gave credit
to two Irish Soldiers who came over during WWII and stayed on in Belgium
marrying local girls. One of these men 12 stepped Pappy in 1951.
The Frankfurt Group celebrated their 50 year anniverary in 2004 and credited
Servce Members with their origins as well as groups in France. It would be an
interesting project and I am willing to help uncover more history for anyone
capable of piecing it all together.
Dolores, when I move to your neck of the woods this summer, I would like to go
through the local archives and see what we can learn or what leads we can
generate.
Roger

Dolores Rinecker <dollie@t-online.de> wrote:


Hi, I am interested in getting more history about the Servicemen who were
stationed in West Germany right after the WWII. I have put some history
together and am interested in getting more. The first meetings were held in
Frankfurt in 1948. All the early groups were Loner groups. Those men were
very influencial in getting english speaking AA going here on the Continent. I
have put together a short history of the history over here and if you are
interested I can send a copy to you. Bill W. was asked to speak at the
Wiesbaden Round-up in 1962 but "graciosly declined". I am looking for more
history to fill in the empty spaces-years. Hope to hear from you. Yours in
AA Dolores R.





"righteousthug" <righteousthug@dellmail.com> schrieb:
>
>
>
> It's always amazed me at all the 'coincidences' that led to the
> formation and growth of AA. Bill picking a minister's name off a
> sign in a hotel lobby in Akron, the minister 'knew someone who knew
> someone' with a drinking problem.... Gives me chills every time I
> think about it.
>
> Anyway, it has also struck me how our entry into WWII played such an
> important part in the growth and spread of the Fellowship. The Big
> Book having been published a scant 2 years before Pearl Harbor,
> Groups formed in England due to our GIs being stationed there, then
> France as we roared across Europe after June 6. Italy, North Africa,
> the Pacific Theater - all had AA groups formed by GIs.
>
> Perhaps more importantly, WWII was responsible for so many Americans
> moving around the country, seeking employment in war industry
> factories. California especially was a large recipient of the war
> diaspora because of the aviation industry.
>
> I was at a meeting in Burnet, Texas a coupla years ago, and someone
> announced that the Mason Group (~40 miles down the road) was having
> their 50-some-odd anniversary. I got to thinking about how the hell
> a group formed in Mason, Texas so early, only to find out that it was
> (apparently) started by someone returning home after the War.
>
> My question is - has anyone seen any writing regarding the effect
> that WWII had on the spread of AA?
>
> /rt
> 6/14/88
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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0 -1 0 0
2273 tflynn96
6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 3/14/2005 11:36:00 AM

If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.

0 -1 0 0
2274 Robert Stonebraker
RE: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 3/14/2005 2:19:00 PM

There are six "tenets" mentioned on page xvi of our Big Book: "Though he
could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced of
the need for moral inventory, confession of personality defects, restitution
to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the necessity of belief in and
dependence upon God." These were doubtless the basis for the Six Steps
listed in the Story 'He Sold Himself Short." (p.292 - 3rd edition or p.
263 - 4th edition). It is my understanding that the OG had twenty-eight
'tenets,' from which Bill Wilson selected these six.

Bob S., from Indiana

-----Original Message-----
From: tflynn96 [mailto:flynn22896@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?



If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.










Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2275 billyk
RE: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/7/2005 4:08:00 AM

for information.

there is a book put out by dicobe tapes;
Dicobe Tapes
1020 Lincoln Road
Bellevue, NE 68005
Phone: (402) 291-3381
Fax: (402) 292-6148
Email: dicobesales@dicobe.com
http://www.bellevuenebraska.com/audiovideo.html


that is a complete set of the 'stories no longer in print'
as they appeared in the 1st and 2nd editions of the big book.

i have it, read it and found it fascinating.

billyk



--- ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:

>
> First Edition Big Book - First Printing
>
> On April 4, 1939, 4,730 copies of the first edition of the book
> “Alcoholics Anonymous” were published at $3.50 a copy (equivalent to
> $46 today). The printer, Edward Blackwell of Cornwall Press, was told
> to use the thickest paper in his shop. The large, bulky volume became
> known as the Big Book and the name has stuck ever since. The idea
> behind the thick and large paper was to convince the alcoholic he was
> getting his money’s worth.
>
> The book had 8 Roman and 400 Arabic numbered pages. “The Doctor’s
> Opinion” started as page 1 and the basic text ended at page 174. Ray
> C
> (whose Big Book story is “An Artist’s Concept”) designed the “circus
> color” dust jacket (and alternate dust jacket).
>
> The manuscript story of an Akron member “Ace Full - Seven - Eleven”
> was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too pleased with changes
> made to the first drafts of the Steps and text). 29 personal stories
> were included: 10 from the east coast, 18 from the mid-west and 1
> from
> the west coast (which was ghost written by Ruth Hock and removed from
> the book in the second printing).
>
> One of the stories “An Alcoholic’s Wife” was written by non-alcoholic
> Marie B from Akron, OH. Dr Bob’s story was originally titled “The
> Doctor’s Nightmare” and later changed to “Dr Bob’s Nightmare.”
>
> First Edition Big Book - Second Printing
>
>
>
> In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the second
> printing of the first edition Big Book. The term “spiritual
> experience” was changed to “spiritual awakening” and the term “as the
> result of these steps” was changed to “as the result of those steps.”
>
>
>
> Appendix II, “Spiritual Experience” was added to the book. This was
> done because many members thought they had to have a sudden and
> spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns
> Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences
> were
> of the type that the psychologist William James called the
> “educational variety.”
>
>
>
> The Herbert Spencer quote was added to Appendix II in the second
> edition Big Book. It first appeared in the story “An Artists Concept”
> by Ray C (who also designed the Big Book’s dust jacket). The Spencer
> quote does not appear to be an accurate attribution. No written work
> by Spencer can be found containing the quote.
>
>
>
> The story “Lone Endeavor” (of Pat C from CA) was removed. It had been
> ghost written by Ruth Hock. Pat, who claimed to have sobered up from
> a
> manuscript copy of the Big Book, was invited to NY shortly after the
> book was printed and arrived in NY quite drunk.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
> _____
>
> From: kilroy@ceoexpress.com [mailto:kilroy@ceoexpress.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:29 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story
>
>
>
>
> The lone Endevor was the Pat Cooper story, Pat was in Calf. and some
> how got a copy of the upcoming first edition( possibley a manuscript)
>
> --- Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
> From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:04:56 -0800
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story
>
>
>
>
> Lester wrote
>
> Thanks. When was "The (A) Lone Endeavor" removed?
>
> I believe it was in the 1st but was dropped from 2nd.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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0 -1 0 0
2276 charlieindallas
Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/7/2005 3:38:00 AM

Gentlemen:

In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that
alcoholism is not a true allergy".

Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find
anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.

I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books
written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another
title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.

Grandaddy

Charles Rutherford
AKA Charlie "Brown"
The Lambda Group

Residence 119
5109 Cedar Springs Road
Dallas, TX 75235-8723
214-528-1553

0 -1 0 0
2277 charlieindallas
Re: old preamble old preamble 3/7/2005 3:45:00 AM

I am sure that many people have written to inform you that this is
the "TEXAS PREAMBLE". The ending few words are a litle fifferent
from the way I remember it. Check with the Dallas Central Office.-

-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Nickerson" <dcm19@m...>
wrote:
> Does anyone know the origin of this?
>
> "We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we
are
> powerless over alcohol and unable to do anything about it without
> the help of a Power greater than ourselves. We feel that each
> person's religious views, if any are his own affair. The simple
> purpose of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to show what may
> be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves
> regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be.
>
> In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do
> to that Power, we must at first apply ourselves with some
diligence.
> By often repeating these acts, they become habitual and the help
> rendered becomes natural to us.
>
> We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from
a
> serious illness for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may
be
> the result of an allergy which makes us different from other
people.
> It has never been by any treatment with which we are familiar,
> permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute
> abstinence, the second meaning of A. A.
>
> There are no dues or fees. The only requirement for membership is
a
> desire to stop drinking. Each member squares his debt by helping
> others to recover.
>
> An Alcohoiics Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application
and
> adherence to the A. A. program has forsworn the use of any and all
> alcoholic beverage in any form. The moment he takes so much as one
> drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other alcoholic beverage he
> automatically loses all status as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous
> A.A. is not interested In sobering up drunks who are not sincere
in
> their desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers. we
> offer our experience only to those who want it.
>
> We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and on which we
> can join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail
who
> has thoroughly followed our program. Those who do not recover are
> people who will not or simply cannot give themselves to this
simple
> program. Now you may like this program or you may not, but the
fact
> remains, it works. It is our only chance to recover.
>
> There is a vast amount of fun in the A.A. fellowship. Some people
> might be shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity but just
> underneath there lies a deadly earnestness and a full realization
> that we must put first things first and with each of us the first
> thing is our alcoholic problem. To drink is to die. Faith must
work
> twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we perish.
>
> In order to set our tone for this meeting I ask that we bow our
> heads in a few moments of silent prayer and meditation.
>
> I wish to remind you that whatever is said at this meeting
expresses
> our own individual opinion as of today and as of up to this
moment.
> We do not speak for A.A. as a whole and you are free to agree or
> disagree as you see fit, in fact. it is suggested that you pay no
> attention to anything which might not he reconcilied with what is
in
> the A. A. Big Book.
>
> If vou dont have a Big Book. it's time you bought you one. Read
it.
> study it, live with it, loan it, scatter it, and then learn from
it
> what it means to be an A.A."

0 -1 0 0
2278 ny-aa@att.net
Re: History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. 3/6/2005 9:43:00 PM

For the city by city spread of A.A. for 1944 thru 1948,
check the archives of this AA History Lovers forum like:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messagesearch/1451?query=gr\
apevine%20circuit%20tcumming


That is a series of monthly "News Circuit" articles from the
AA Grapevine. If you subscribe to the AA Grapevine Archives,
you can pull up the same articles there.

0 -1 0 0
2279 Arkie Koehl
Re: History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. History related to the Growth of Alcoholics Anonymous. 3/6/2005 9:22:00 PM

Interesting project, Larry.

I'm not sure if your thesis is that AA tends to spread according to
certain patterns? If that is so, you might be interested in the Havana
and Beijing examples, cases with which I'm directly familiar.

The first AA meeting in Cuba took place in the Vedado neighborhood of
Havana in January, 1993. Within two years there were several more
groups in various sections of Havana. In addition to the usual reasons
for growth (word of mouth, resentments), growth was accelerated in this
case by the sorry state of public transportation in Havana at that
time, a result of the loss of Soviet fuel subsidies. Travel was
principally by bicycle, and burdensome if you lived more than a couple
of miles from a meeting. I'm told this difficulty was a major factor in
new group formation.

Beijing's first Chinese (as against ex-patriate) meetings were held in
the An Ding Hospital among current and former inpatients, in 2001. The
meetings were tolerated by the authorities, despite a dislike of
"spiritual programs," and the members were given to believe that
meetings outside of the hospital would be frowned upon. However, when
the SARS epidemic struck in 2003, the hospital was quarantined and the
AA group was freed up to seek other venues. There are now several
groups around Beijing, I believe.

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu


On Mar 5, 2005, at 22:01, WCompWdsUnl@aol.com wrote:

>
> Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, 
> chronologically?  I
> am trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and  founding of
> AA, in
> places all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron  and New
> York.  I am
> interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of  this fellowship,
> from
> city to city.  I am hoping I can get as complete a  list as possible,
> during the
> "flying blind period of the founding of groups, and  in what cities. 
>
> Thank you. 
>
> Larry  W.
> Atlanta,  GA

0 -1 0 0
2280 Glenn Chesnut
Dates at which AA was started in specific cities Dates at which AA was started in specific cities 3/14/2005 3:44:00 PM

Larry W. (Atlanta GA) wrote in asking:

"Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I am
trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in places
all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am
interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from city
to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the
"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities."

Several people have written in responding to this question. To sum up what they
said (so we don't have so many messages), one person wrote in saying that there
is a book by Bob Pearson (with which I am unfamiliar) giving information on
this. It was pointed out that there are timelines at:

http://archivesinternational.org/

And (from the West Baltimore Group)at:

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/chronology_of_aa_groups.htm

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/times.htm

None of these seem to give the kind of detailed list that Larry is really
looking for, where it talks about the date at which AA was founded in various
specific cities around the U.S. (and around the world), and has all this
information gathered together in one place.

There is also Archie M's timeline, which Arthur S. has been involved with, but
about which I do not know the details.

At one point, Nancy Olson was posting in the AAHistoryLovers, every month, a
list of important dates in AA history: events that had happened during that
month in previous years. Nancy did in fact have the dates at which the first AA
groups were formed in a number of cities. I think that this would be the best
list for Larry W.'s purposes.

Messages 209, 212, 216, 218, and 590 are on this topic. But I cannot find
anywhere in the list of past messages, any of those monthly date lists that
Nancy put together. I do hope that no one went through and deleted those
messages.

Am I looking in the wrong place? Are Nancy's monthly date lists still there
among the past postings?

There are articles on the internet talking about AA in individual cities.
Detroit, for example, has a nice website. I have been trying to assemble this
kind of material on Indiana AA history at http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html
giving the founding dates in cities such as Evansville, Indianapolis, Fort
Wayne, South Bend, Muncie, Anderson, and so on. But that's just Indiana, and
Larry wants a list that includes everyplace that AA has spread.

So once again, does anybody know where Larry can find, in one place, a list of
when AA was founded in specific cities. None of the date lists and timelines
that have been sent in so far, seem to me to give what Larry is actually looking
for.

G.C.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2281 jst4tdy
Re: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 3/13/2005 2:55:00 PM

Hi, on page 292 of the third edition Big Book you will find the six tenants
of the Oxford group. Bill M.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "tflynn96" <flynn22896@sbcglobal.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:36 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?


>
>
>
> If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
> that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
> about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
> can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
> Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2282 ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>
Re: Lone Endeavor Story Lone Endeavor Story 3/14/2005 2:59:00 PM

Hey billyk and Group,
Better yet, and more appropriate. for all the personal stories removed from all
three Editions of Alcoholics Anonymous, order Experience, Strength, and Hope
from AAWS. There is much more archived there, including the early segments "And
Now We Are..."
Many AAs try to support the Fellowship by purchasing Conference-approved
literature---imagine that!
rickt

----- Original Message -----
From: "billyk" <billyk3@yahoo.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:08 AM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Lone Endeavor Story


>
>
> for information.
> there is a book put out by dicobe tapes;
> Dicobe Tapes
> that is a complete set of the 'stories no longer in print'
> as they appeared in the 1st and 2nd editions of the big book.
> i have it, read it and found it fascinating.
> billyk
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2283 Billlwhite@AOL.COM
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/14/2005 11:28:00 AM

Charles,

Dr. William Silkworth presented his allergy theory of alcoholism to
Bill W. (during Bill's stay in Towns Hospital in 1934), elaborated on this
theory in two articles in the late 1930s, and restated this theory in The
Doctors
Opinion in 1939.
The greatest elaboration of this concept is in: Silkworth, W. (1937).
Alcoholism as a Manifestation of Allergy. Medical Record, 145:249-251. Here are
a
few representative quotes:

"...true alcoholism is a manifestation of allergy."
"...true alcoholism is an allergic state, the result of gradually
increasing sensitization by alcohol over a more or less extended period of
time."
"...compares to hay fever in terms of progressive exposure and then
full emergence of disease"
"The patient can not use alcohol at all for physiological reasons. He
must understand and accept the situation as a law of nature operating
inexorably. Once he has fully and intelligently grasped the facts of the matter
he
will shape his policy accordingly."

The allergy theory gained little credence in the larger medical
community, although two references are worth noting. Robert Seliger used
allergy as
a metaphor to describe the alcoholic's "psychobiological sensitivity" to
alcohol in his 1937 article, The Problem of the Alcoholic in the Community
(American Journal of Psychiatry 95(3):701-716), and the psychiatrist Edward
Strecker
and the lay alcoholism therapist Francis Chambers spoke of a "psychic allergy
to alcohol" in their 1938 book, Alcohol: One Man's Meat.
During the mid-1940s, the allergy theory was under scientific attack.
I suspect the "our friends" reference in Living Sober is to opinions
expressed by Howard Haggard and E.M. Jellinek of the Yale Center of Alcohol
Studies.
Haggard published the most definitive critique of the allergy theory (Haggard,
H. (1944). Critique of the Concept of the Allergic Nature of Alcohol
Addiction. Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, 5:233-241.) He reviewed
the
available scientific evidence and concluded that there was no scientific
foundation for the idea of an allergy that creates a biologically abnormal
response to
alcohol among alcoholics.

Hope this helps.
Bill White

In a message dated 3/14/2005 2:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net writes:

> Subj: [AAHistoryLovers] Allergy theory
> Date: 3/14/2005 2:38:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
> From: chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net
> Reply-to: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gentlemen:
>
> In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that
> alcoholism is not a true allergy".
>
> Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find
> anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.
>
> I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books
> written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another
> title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.
>
> Grandaddy
>
> Charles Rutherford
> AKA Charlie "Brown"
> The Lambda Group
>
> Residence 119
> 5109 Cedar Springs Road
> Dallas, TX 75235-8723
> 214-528-1553
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2284 Cloydg
Re: 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 6 tenants of the Oxford Group? 3/14/2005 4:58:00 PM

Does anyone know whether or not Dr. Bob and Bill W. did their steps over
after writing chapter 5? It's my understanding that shortly after Dr. Bob
quit drinking on June10, 1935. He and Bill did their steps together over a
few hours using the 6 tenents. Any information would be appreciated!

Love and service, Clyde G.

0 -1 0 0
2285 ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>
Re: Dates at which AA was started in specific cities Dates at which AA was started in specific cities 3/15/2005 3:44:00 AM

I need to inform the group that Bob Pearson's AA history book was much more
about the history of the General Service Office than specific growth of
selected cities and AA "Chapters." In my own view of the draft manuscript,
the scope of specific cities' growth was not covered extremely well in it. I
learned a great deal about the GSO relation to the General Service
Conference, and Bob P. did write about trends in AA
with a keen insight.

His book was never published, but was severely compromised from photocopying by
1988s Delegates, which means that there are unauthorized copies of it floating
around.

Here are some facts, worthy of further on-site study at the AA Archives at
GSO. There is no better access that I know of outside of in-person, approved
research. Write and call first!

The 1940s Alcoholic Foundation Office described our growth as taking hold in
"Chapters" (cities) and "Sections" (a number of Groups close to each other
in different sections of states or counties, such as, the Long Island
section, the northwest Illinois section, the New England section, etc.). At
Bill+Lois' home in Katonah, NY (Bedford Hills), Bill's writing studio has a
1950s US map with many pins placed where AA Chapters flourished. It is
current to around 1960 and was moved from one of the GSOs to his home and
the "Wit's End" studio ledge.

The most accurate resource of original dates. locations, and growth is the
record of the AA Directories, published every six months beginning in 1940.
Towns, cities, membership numbers, group secretaries names and addresses,
group addresses (PO boxes), telephone numbers, and even semi-annual group
contributions are recorded from registered Groups.

Group membership numbers and contributions are no longer presented in the AA
Directories published today, but the earliest records are still being
researched through the AA Archives in NYC.

Yours in fellowship,
Rick T., Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Chesnut" <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
To: "AAHistoryLovers group" <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:44 PM

0 -1 0 0
2286 ArtSheehan
RE: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/15/2005 12:58:00 AM

Actually there are no "6 tenets" mentioned on page xvi of
the Big Book. What it states is:

"From this doctor, the broker had learned the grave nature of
alcoholism. Though he could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford
Groups, he was convinced of the need for moral inventory, confession
of personality defects, restitution to those harmed, helpfulness to
others, and the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."

Those "tenets" only add up to 5.

Core principles of the Oxford Group consisted of: the "4 absolutes" of
honesty, unselfishness, purity and love; the "5 C's" of confidence,
confession, conviction, conversion and continuance; and the "5
procedures" of: 1) Give in to God, 2) Listen to God's direction, 3)
Check guidance, 4) Restitution and 5) Sharing for witness and
confession. The OG gave AA the term "sharing." They were also strong
advocates of one member working with another. Dr Bob wrote that this
was a key part of the message carried to him by Bill W when they first
met.

Prior to the writing of the Big Book, the recovery program consisted
of 6 steps passed on to new members by word of mouth. There are 4
differing versions of the 6 steps recorded in AA Literature. They can
be found in the books "The Language of the Heart" (pg 200), "AA Comes
of Age" (pg 160), "Pass It On" (pg 197), the Big Book Pioneer story
"He Sold Himself Short" (pg 292 - 3rd ed, pg 263 - 4th ed) and in the
pamphlet "Three Talks to Medical Societies by Bill W, Co-Founder of
Alcoholics Anonymous" (pg 8).

Sometimes reference is made to the "6 steps of the Oxford Group." This
is not accurate. The OG did not have any Steps (or "6 tenets" per se).
The alcoholic members of the Akron and New York groups (sometimes
called the "alcoholic squad") developed the "word-of-mouth" versions
of the early 6 steps.

The book "Not God" in its extensive collection of end notes (pg 331,
end note 32) states "AA legend has it that these six steps derived
directly from the OG; this is simply wrong."

In a July 1953 Grapevine Article titled "A Fragment of History: Origin
of the Twelve Steps" Bill W wrote:

". the main channels of inspiration for our Steps were three in number
- the Oxford Groups, Dr William D Silkworth of Towns Hospital and the
famed psychologist, William James, called by some the father of modern
psychology."

"During the next three years after Dr Bob's recovery our growing
groups at Akron, New York and Cleveland evolved the so-called
word-of-mouth program of our pioneering time. As we commenced to form
a society separate from the Oxford Group, we began to state our
principles something like this:

1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol.

2. We got honest with ourselves.

3. We got honest with another person, in confidence.

4. We made amends for harms done others.

5. We worked with other alcoholics without demand for prestige or
money.

6. We prayed to God to help us to do these things as best we could.

Though these principles were advocated according to the whim or liking
of each of us, and though in Akron and Cleveland they still stuck by
the OG absolutes of honesty, purity, unselfishness and love, this was
the gist of our message to incoming alcoholics up to 1939, when our
present Twelve Steps were put to paper."

In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 160) Bill wrote: "Since Ebby's visit to me in
the fall of 1934, we had gradually evolved what we called "the
word-of-mouth program". Most of the basic ideas had come from the
Oxford Groups, William James and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to
considerable variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent
procedure, which comprised six steps. These were approximately as
follows:

1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over
alcohol.

2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.

3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person
in confidence.

4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our
drinking.

5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward
in money or prestige

6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to
practice these precepts."

Compare the previous two versions with the version below stated by
Bill in an April 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society on Alcoholism.
It illustrates the ways variances can enter into a "word-of-mouth"
program. In describing the visit made by Ebby T to his home, Bill
wrote:

"Next Ebby enumerated the principles he had learned from the Oxford
Group. In substance here they are as my friend applied them to himself
in 1934:

1. Ebby admitted that he was powerless to manage his own life.

2. He became honest with himself as never before; made an
"examination of conscience."

3. He made a rigorous confession of his personal defects and
thus quit living alone with his problems.

4. He surveyed his distorted relations with other people,
visiting them to make what amends he could.

5. He resolved to devote himself to helping others in need,
without the usual demands for personal prestige or material gain.

6. By meditation, he sought God's direction for his life and the
help to practice these principles of conduct at all times."

AA's group number one, in Akron, OH (and later other groups in the
mid-West) were more closely aligned with the OG movement and stayed a
part of the OG until 1939 (the NY group left the OG in 1937). In his
Big Book story "He Sold Himself Short" Earl T (pioneer AA in Chicago)
records a version of the 6 steps used in Akron at the time. Dr. Bob
was his sponsor. The description by Earl varies from the versions used
in New York and is a much more orthodox portrayal of the Oxford
Group's influence:

1. Complete deflation.

2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power.

3. Moral inventory.

4. Confession.

5. Restitution.

6. Continued work with other alcoholics.

Although semantic variances exist, the substance is all the same.

Cheers

Arthur

_____

From: Robert Stonebraker [mailto:rstonebraker212@insightbb.com]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:19 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?




There are six "tenets" mentioned on page xvi of our Big Book: "Though
he
could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced
of
the need for moral inventory, confession of personality defects,
restitution
to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the necessity of belief in
and
dependence upon God." These were doubtless the basis for the Six
Steps
listed in the Story 'He Sold Himself Short." (p.292 - 3rd edition or
p.
263 - 4th edition). It is my understanding that the OG had
twenty-eight
'tenets,' from which Bill Wilson selected these six.

Bob S., from Indiana

-----Original Message-----
From: tflynn96 [mailto:flynn22896@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenants of the Oxford Group?



If anyone can direct me to info on the 6 tenants of the Oxford group
that would be great. I've done some research and can find a lot
about the 4 absolutes and many other things but for some reason I
can't find info on the tenants. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.
Any info would be welcome. Thank you in advance for your time.










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0 -1 0 0
2287 kyyank@aol.com
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/14/2005 5:38:00 PM

There are also some additional quotes and references in Silkworth, The Little
Doctor Who Loved Drunks, Hazelden Publishing, 2002, Mitchel


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2288 Ernest Kurtz
Re: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/14/2005 6:06:00 PM

The best book on the Oxford Group remains Walter Houston Clark's, *The
Oxford Group: Its History and Significance.* You should be able to
find it in any good library. It is a bit expensive on the used book
sites, but remains from preferable to anything by more recent authors,
especially OG insiders.

0 -1 0 0
2289 John G
"Tail of a Comet," was "6 tenets of the Oxford Group? "Tail of a Comet," was "6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/15/2005 9:53:00 PM

Any thoughts about Garth Lean's Frank Buchman biography, "On the Tail of a
Comet?" I'm reading it now, and enjoying it very much, though his quick
chronology on the history of AA founding seems somewhat inaccurate.

John G.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ernest Kurtz [mailto:kurtzern@umich.edu]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:06 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] 6 tenets of the Oxford Group?




The best book on the Oxford Group remains Walter Houston Clark's, *The
Oxford Group: Its History and Significance.* You should be able to
find it in any good library. It is a bit expensive on the used book
sites, but remains from preferable to anything by more recent authors,
especially OG insiders.

0 -1 0 0
2290 cck
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/16/2005 1:12:00 AM

charlieindallas <chasrutherford@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Gentlemen:

In "Living Sober" the phrase appears "our friends now tell us that
alcoholism is not a true allergy".

Neither I nor the New York Central Office have been able to find
anoher refernce to this in Conference Approved Literature.

I seem to have a vague recollection of reading about this in books
written about AA, such as "Not God" (now published under another
title. If you have any knowledge of this, please advise.

Grandaddy

Charles Rutherford
AKA Charlie "Brown"
The Lambda Group

Residence 119
5109 Cedar Springs Road
Dallas, TX 75235-8723
214-528-1553







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0 -1 0 0
2291 Naomi Blankenship
Nancy O. in hospital Nancy O. in hospital 3/16/2005 1:00:00 PM

Nancy was taken to Mary Washington Hospital on Friday the 11th of
March after a fall. Possible broken leg, maybe hip also. I am
unaware of more details at this time.

Naomi

=========================================
From G.C. (South Bend)

The latest information I have is that both her leg and hip were broken, but that
the doctors decided they would not try to operate, because her heart is so weak.
So she has to stay in bed lying down, and they are giving her massive pain
killers and trying to keep her as comfortable as possible. But she is still in
a lot of pain. I think we are all aware that there is no good prognosis at this
point.

I don't have any other information past this point. She is in Virginia and I am
in Indiana, so I am too far distant to have detailed information. This most
recent information I have came via telephone from Lori, an AA friend of hers in
Frederickburg, around noon today (Wednesday).

Nancy can't handle receiving messages at this point. She's drifting in and out,
and wouldn't be able to understand them.

I will post additional information as I receive it. Since there are over a
thousand members of the AAHistoryLovers, I won't be able to respond to
individual emails on this -- I apologize in advance, but there would be hundreds
I'm sure, because we all loved her so much.

I'm very sorry to have to pass this news along. We just need to pray for her at
this point. She is in the Lord's hands, and he will be good to her.

0 -1 0 0
2292 MarionORedstone@aol.com
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/16/2005 9:32:00 AM

Not God is now published under the name "The Story"

Marion O. Redstone, Atty.
Indianapolis, Indiana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2293 Glenn Chesnut
Dates when AA was established in individual cities Dates when AA was established in individual cities 3/16/2005 2:13:00 PM

Larry W. (Atlanta GA) wrote in asking:

"Can anyone tell me the history of the development of AA, chronologically? I am
trying to locate a list of the dates, locations and founding of AA, in places
all over America and the world, subsequent to Akron and New York. I am
interested in knowing the sequence of the spread of this fellowship, from city
to city. I am hoping I can get as complete a list as possible, during the
"flying blind period of the founding of groups, and in what cities."

Nancy Olson once had a list put together with a lot of these dates, but the list
seems to have disappeared. She got a lot of her dates from pages on the website
put together by Doug B. (Riverside, California), beginning with:

http://www.aahistory.com/jan.html

It took Nancy a lot of work to cull out the dates she actually needed, but
Doug's date list represents a lot of really good research. It doesn't give every
city in the world, but it is the closest thing I have found so far to what Larry
W. was asking for.

It would be a really good piece of service work if someone put together a list
like the one Larry W. wants. Looking at Doug's list would be the first thing
someone would want to do in assembling such a list.

The next thing a person would want to do, would be to look at what "t" has
assembled:

This is a series of postings which tcumming (Denton TX) sent in to the
AAHistoryLovers, starting with post 1183 [Metropolitan Circuit, June 44] posted
on 8/2/03 and ending with post 1450 [New Groups, Aug 48] posted on 11/2/03. This
is material from the Grapevine.The New Groups columns will probably be easiest
to pull the info from ... then the Metropolitan Circuit and News Circuit columns
will require a bit more work to pull out names of groups mentioned that were
already in existence [or somehow slid by a New Groups mention].

To look at these messages, call up
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages/ and there will be
a place to type in the number of the particular message you want to see, marked
Msg #.

You will be able to pick them out of the list of messages easily, because they
will all have been posted by tcumming.

http://archivesinternational.org/AI/Documents/pdf/groups.pdf gives a list of
the first 22 cities where AA groups were established, although not the date of
the first AA meeting held there. That is very useful information though.

Somebody putting a good list together would need to search on the internet for
the AA websites for specific cities, like Detroit. Some of them have some
historical information on there, including sometimes the date at which the first
AA group was founded in that city.

I think it would also be useful to include a short timeline which was sent to me
by "t" (Denton TX), because there are some dates on that list that would need to
be included:

======================================

First AA Locations (many had more than one group by the end of 1940 )

Akron June 10, 1935 - Dr. Bob has last drink (some say it may have been June 17,
based on date of medical convention he attended.) ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS FOUNDED

Nov-Dec 1939 - Akron group withdrawals from association with Oxford Group.

Meetings moved from T.Henry & Clarence Williams to Dr Bob and other members
homes.

Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.

New York Fall & Winter 1935 - Bill back in New York. Begin to hold meetings at
182 Clinton St. Tuesday nights. Hank P and Fitz M get sober.

1937 - Bill and the New York alcoholics split from the Oxford Group. Among
residents at Clinton St. were Ebby T., Oscar V., Russell R., Bill C., Florence
R.

June 18, 1940 - Meeting held in first 'AA clubhouse', at 334½ W. 24th St, NYC.
Bert T. & Horace C. guarantee rent for building.

Washington DC 1937 - Fitz M. was spending much of his time trying to get AA
started in Washington, by ... fall of 1939 - the nucleus of a small group had
been established. Joined by Hardin C., Bill A. and Florence R

Cleveland May 11, 1939 - The first group to officially call itself Alcoholics
Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland, OH - old Borton Group (?). 1st
group to have no Oxford Group connection.

Dec 1940 - A.A. Cleveland has about 30 groups.

Toledo summer 1939 - Charles ("C.J.") K. & Eddie B. 12 stepped Duke P. Toledo,
both were in state insane asylum, Toledo, on voluntary commitments, had read Big
Book manuscript and got out. Sept 1940 - AA group started in Toledo, Duke P &
others started it.

Chicago Sept 1939 - group started by Earl T in Chicago/Evanston. The first
meeting held outside the Chicago Chapter was located in Sterling, Illinois, on a
March Wednesday night in 1943 at the home of Ken S.

San Francisco November 1939 - (from correspondence & no other info provided)

Rockland State Hospital Dec 1939 - First AA group in mental institution,
Rockland State Hospital, NY.

Los Angeles Dec 1939 - 1st home meeting Los Angeles Kaye M.'s house

Detroit & Youngstown 1939 - Meetings being held in Detroit. Archie T. &
nonalcoholic friend Sarah Klein helped start; expanded into Youngstown.

St. Louis 1939 - Father Ed Dowling responsible founding A.A. St. Louis

Greenwich Connecticut 1939 - Marty M pioneered group at Blythwood Sanitarium

Philadelphia Feb 1940 - Jimmy B. moved there & started group

Houston April 1, 1940 - started by Larry J. of Houston, who wrote "The Texas
Prayer". He is also said to have written the "Texas Preamble". Additionally, he
wrote a series of articles for a Houston Paper which were collected and
reprinted as the first AA pamphlet/booklet distributed by the New York office.

Little Rock April 19, 1940 - Little Rock, Arkansas group was formed. First 'mail
order' group.

Evansville, Indiana April or May 1940 - met in J[ames] D. H.'s home, 420 South
Denby Street. (from correspondence)

Richmond, Va June 6, 1940 - AA group founded in Richmond, Virginia.

Baltimore June 13, 1940 - Jimmy B helped Jim R start group in Baltimore.

Indianapolis October 28, 1940 - Doherty S credited with starting AA in
Indianapolis.

Ashtabula, Ohio Dec 1940 - group started Ashtabula, Ohio due to Plain Dealer
articles.

Boston 1940 - Paddy K. founded A.A. Boston

High Watch Farm 1940 - 1st A.A. oriented drying facility 'High Watch Farm' in
Kent, Connecticut.

_________________ Added Information _________________

In an October 1, 1940 report to the Trustees, Bill W. estimated the A.A.
membership as follows:

Akron, Ohio 200

Jackson, Mich. 15

Baltimore, Md. 12

Little Rock, Ark. 27

Camden, NJ. 5

Los Angeles, Cal. 100

Chicago, Ill. 100

New York City 150

Cleveland, Ohio 450

Philadelphia, Pa 75

Coldwater, Mich. 8

Richmond, Va. 20

Dayton, Ohio 6

San Francisco, Cal. 15

Detroit, Mich. 30

Toledo, Ohio 6

Evansville, Ind. 24

Washington DC 100

Greenwich, Conn. 25

Waunakee, Wis. 20

Houston, Texas 30

Youngstown, Ohio 15

22 Cities 1433 Total

======================================







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2294 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Allergy theory Allergy theory 3/16/2005 3:39:00 PM

Please. may I try to clear up this confusion. Not-God was first
published in 1979. Sometime around 1985, in an effort to pre-empt Nan
Robertson's coming book on AA, Hazelden arranged with another publisher
to put out a somewhat abridged version under the title "AA: The Story."
It never did well, deservedly.

In 1991, Hazelden re-issued Not-God under its original title and with
all the original material (including the infamous notes) plus an
"appendix" taking the story from Bill W's death in 1971 to the
anniversary of 1985. That edition, in paperback and with a dark blue
cover, is still in print. In my experience, it seems easier to purchase
from Amazon than from Hazelden. Search under the title -- Not-God -- or
under my name.

Thanks.

Ernest Kurtz


MarionORedstone@aol.com wrote:

>
> Not God is now published under the name "The Story"
>
> Marion O. Redstone, Atty.
> Indianapolis, Indiana
>

0 -1 0 0
2295 Tom Hickcox
RE: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/16/2005 4:06:00 PM

To complement the information Arthur posted on 3/14/05, this is from a
footnote, #2, on page 206 of the book Pass It On:

In later years, some A.A. members referred to this procedure as the six
steps of the Oxford Group. Rev. T. Willard Hunter, who spent 18 years in
full-time staff positions for the Oxford Group and M.R.A., said, "I never
once saw or heard anything like the Six Tenets. It would be impossible to
find them in any Oxford Group - M.R.A. literature. I think they must have
been written by someone else under some form of misapprehension."

We may be seeing an example of the fact that oral history passed down over
the years is often inaccurate if not wrong.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
2296 mojo@halfaworldaway.org
More info on Helen Wynn? More info on Helen Wynn? 3/16/2005 5:13:00 PM

Googling Helen Wynn doesn't get me much. Can anyone point me to the
best sources for more info? Thanks!

0 -1 0 0
2297 saturntad
Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism" Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism" 3/17/2005 11:05:00 AM

I need help finding out who some of the characters are, that are
referred to in chapter 3 of the Big Book, "More About Alcoholism."

1. On page 32, 2nd paragraph, "A man of thirty". Who was this man?
2. On page 35, 2nd paragraph, ... a friend we shall call Jim. Who
was this man?
3. On page 39, 2nd paragraph, "Fred is a partner...". Who was this
man?

Thank you!

0 -1 0 0
2298 David Grant
Re: More info on Helen Wynn? More info on Helen Wynn? 3/17/2005 6:02:00 PM

There is quite a bit of content about Helen in "Bill W. by Francis
Hartigan."

Cheers,

David G.




----- Original Message -----
From: <mojo@halfaworldaway.org>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 5:13 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] More info on Helen Wynn?


>
>
>
> Googling Helen Wynn doesn't get me much. Can anyone point me to the
> best sources for more info? Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2299 Robert Stonebraker
National Meeting Directories National Meeting Directories 3/17/2005 3:37:00 PM

Dear AA history Lovers Group,

While reflecting on my 1951 AA World Group Directory I began to wonder when
the very first NATIONAL MEETING directories were printed. .. .. and whether
they are on display at the GSO Archives office.

Information would be appreciated – thanks in advance.

Bob S.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2300 Jim Blair
Re: National Meeting Directories National Meeting Directories 3/17/2005 6:38:00 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] National Meeting Directories

While reflecting on my 1951 AA World Group Directory I began to wonder when
the very first NATIONAL MEETING directories were printed. .. .. and whether
they are on display at the GSO Archives office.

First appeared as "List of AA Groups as of February 1946."

It included one group in the Canal Zone, Mexico (1), Australia (1), Canada
(4), England (1).

0 -1 0 0
2301 Jim Blair
Re: Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism" Identifying three people in "More About Alcoholism" 3/17/2005 7:07:00 PM

I need help finding out who some of the characters are, that are referred
to in chapter 3 of the Big Book, "More About Alcoholism."

1. On page 32, 2nd paragraph, "A man of thirty." Who was this man?

This story was adapted from the chapter "First Steps" in the book Common
Sense of Drinking by Richard Peabody.

2. On page 35, 2nd paragraph, ... a friend we shall call Jim. Who was this
man?

Ralph Furlong, "Another Prodigal Story" (1st Edition)

3. On page 39, 2nd paragraph, "Fred is a partner...." Who was this man?

Harry Brick, "A Different Slant" (1st Edition) He sued the Alcoholic
Foundation for money loaned to print the Big Book.

Lee C. of CA, produced a document titled "Between the Lines" which explains
the people and places mentioned in the first 164 pages of the BB and Dr.
Bob's story.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

MODERATOR: Let me add to Jim's message some additional info from two other
people who wrote in at the same time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net> Date: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:21pm

Lester adds that Ralph F. was from Springfield, Mass., and Harry B. was from New
York.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From: "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net> Date: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:18pm

Diz adds that Peabody's book did not identify the "man of thirty" in that story.

Harry B. (whose story was "A Different Slant") later got drunk.

0 -1 0 0
2302 Ron Sessions
Re: The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous 3/18/2005 12:23:00 AM

Hello all -

My first chance to post in this group – I want to thank all of you
for so much effort and time – great information here - very helpful!

I know this is a little late – but I just joined this group recently
and ran across a post I wanted to reply to while searching the
archives for "Between the Lines".

(All page numbers refer to `Alcoholics Anonymous' 3rd Edition)

Here is how I see what is stated on pages 158-159 regarding the `A
year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more.'
statement:

OK, You have Bill W. and Dr. Bob – they 12th step Bill D. – then
these three 12th step the devil may care chap (Ernie G. who later
married Bob's daughter Sue). That makes four. After Ernie sobers up,
Bill W. returns home, leaving three in Akron.

I believe the `three' mentioned on page 159 are Dr. Bob, Bill D. and
Ernie - they succeeded with seven more in the next year and six
months. The following pages (159, 160 and 161) speak exclusively of
Akron and its environs. At the bottom of page 161 New York is finally
mentioned (eastern cities). So the seven in the first year and a half
only speaks of Akron area folks – not New York area.

At least that is how I read it.

Also – I would like to get of copy of the document titled "Between
the Lines" by Lee C. of CA mentioned by Jim Blair in message # 2301
if possible.

Thanks – Ron Sessions

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "M. Lee Carroll"
<mcarroll@b...> wrote:
> Keith M. asked about the first twelve into AA. During my research
on
> the People Places and Things Mentioned in the First 164 pages of the
> Book, I have come up with the following:
>
> re; Page159 Who were the "seven more?"
>
> Akron
> Ernie Galbraith 9/35 ("The Seven Month Slip")
> Phil S. 9/35 - First AA court case
> Tom Lucas,11/35 or 12/37, ("My Wife and I")
> Walter Bray, 2/36, ("The Backslider")
> Joe Doppler, 4/36, ("The European Drinker")
> Paul Stanley, 7/36, (Truth Freed Me")
>
> NY
> Fitz Mayo, 10/35, ("Our Southern Friend")
> Hank Parkhurst, 11/35, ("The Unbeliever")
> William Ruddell, 11/35 or 1/37 ("A Business Man's Recovery")
> Myron Williams, 4/36, ("Hindsight")
>
> Granted, this is more than "seven more," but that is because some
of
> these folks drank again and came back (two dates next to their
name)
> Most, as you can see, were stories in the First Edition.
>
> I have a list of the first 100 (more or less). I'll see if I can
find
> it.
>
> Lee
>
>
> >>> dangerousa@y... 02/03/03 05:47PM >>>
> Hello, AA History Lovers, I am trying to find information on who
the
> first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous were and the order in
> which they joined? The source of information used to determine this
> is also helpful.
>
> Thank you,
> Keith M.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

0 -1 0 0
2303 cdknapp@pacbell.net
Pink Seven Pink Seven 3/18/2005 3:21:00 AM

Hello group,
I was asked a question that I could not answer or find on the
Internet. I was wondering if any of you can help. In "Physician,
Heal Thyself!" Earle uses a term "know as Pink Seven" on page 304 in
the 4th Ed. Can any one give me a definition of this term? Thanking
you in advance.
Charles from California

0 -1 0 0
2304 ricktompkins@sbcglobal.net>
Re: National Meeting Directories National Meeting Directories 3/18/2005 3:33:00 AM

hello Group,

From my research and notes, the first National Directories were
booklet-published in the spring of 1940 by the Alcoholic Foundation office. The
"LISTING OF A.A. GROUPS WITH THE ALCOHOLIC FOUNDATION" directories were updated
every six months. The printed documents reported group membership numbers,
locations, meeting nights, and contact addresses for the groups (when available
as P.O. Boxes, otherwise the names and addresses of Group Secretaries). Later
directories published contribution amounts, telephone numbers (beginning in
1947), and discontinued the semi-annual booklet printing sometime in the 1950s.

The AA Archives at GSO will not provide photocopies, due to current
confidentiality policies. Judit Olah, Archivist, has a staff of three who reply
to requests on the history of specific groups, and I'm sure that information on
the original meetings (or any group's meetings) in any given city would be
provided on request. The first place the research staff would go is the printed
semi-annual "Listing" that was sorted alphabetically by State and cities in that
State. Today, no one may get the early contact names but would receive details
of the group's earliest recorded information.

Write: The AA Archives,General Service Office, 475 Riverside Drive, 11th Floor,
New York, NY 10115

of note: ACROSS THE UNITED STATES IN 1940: 59 active groups, 1,400 members
(courtesy of the AA Archives and used with permission).

Yours in fellowship, Rick T., Illinois


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2305 ArtSheehan
FW: 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 6 tenets of the Oxford Group? 3/18/2005 3:51:00 PM

The questions about the tenets of the Oxford Group prompts me to comment on the
important influence religion had on early AA. When Bill wrote “Let’s get
friendly with our friends” it is worth noting that the “friends” are physicians
and the clergy. In AA's early decades, men and woman of religion were
celebrated for their contributions to AA. “AA Comes of Age” is filled with
tribute to them.

Prior to taking on the name “Oxford Group” the society was called “The First
Century Christian Fellowship.” The Oxford Group (OG) is not fairly summed up in
a few lines of “tenets” any more so than the use of the Ten Commandments would
aptly describe the substance of Judaism.

The OG was an evangelical movement that, although neutral in its advocating a
specific religious denomination, regarded its code or system of beliefs to be
firmly rooted in Christian Scripture. Dr Bob, his wife Anne, Frank Buchman, Rev
Sam Shoemaker, Rowland Hazard, Jim Newton, Shep Cornell, Henrietta Seiberling,
Rev Walter Tunks, Norman Shepherd, Russell Firestone and T Henry & Clarace
Williams were most of the key names that carried the OG influence to the two
fledgling AA groups (in Akron and NY) that initially met under the auspices of
the OG.

A July 1945 Grapevine article reported that in June 1945, Cleveland, OH hosted a
2-day “Big Meeting” at the Cleveland Music Hall and Carter Hotel to celebrate
AA’s 10th anniversary. Estimated attendance was 2,500. At the event Dr Bob
publicly commented, and is cited in the Grapevine, that over the last 10 years
he averaged at least an hour’s reading per day and “always returned to the
simple teachings in The Sermon on the Mount, the Book of James and the 13th
chapter of First Corinthians in the Bible for his fundamentals.”

Cheers, Arthur

Sources: Dick B, "The Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous"
(http://www.dickb.com/Oxford.shtml) and "Alcoholics Anonymous and Its Real
Oxford Group Connection" (http://www.aabibliography.com/article21.html).

0 -1 0 0
2306 Glenn Chesnut
I have talked with Nancy O. I have talked with Nancy O. 3/18/2005 8:45:00 PM

Nancy O., the founder and moderator of the AAHistoryLovers, did in fact break
her leg and her hip in the fall she took on Friday, March 11. Her heart is too
weak for them to operate on her and set the broken bones properly. Her heart
stopped beating on Sunday, and they thought they had lost her, but then it
started beating again.

She has now been moved to a nursing home in Roanoke, Virginia, only five blocks
away from her sister and her nephew and niece, who are watching over her.

I talked with Nancy briefly at 8 p.m. this evening (Friday, March 18). She was
able to talk clearly, but she is in a lot of pain, and began crying at one point
from the pain. No one can blame her for that.

I feel totally helpless in this situation myself. All we can do is pray for her.

Either Lori W. in Fredericksburg, Virginia, or I will keep the members of this
group posted on what is happening, as we get information.

G.C.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2307 Diz Titcher
Re: Re: The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous The first 12 members to join Alcoholics Anonymous 3/18/2005 8:57:00 PM

This is the first twelve I have:
Bill Wilson
Dr. Bob Smith
Eddie Reilly
Dr. McK.
Bill Dotson
Ernie Galbraith
Hank Parkhurst
Phil Smith
Wes Wymans
Fitz Mayo
Freddie B. NY
Brooke B. NY
Some of these were failures.

Diz Titcher

0 -1 0 0
2308 Roger Wheatley
Re: AA geographical membership rates AA geographical membership rates 3/19/2005 2:34:00 AM

Robin,
A member in the UK attempting to show the growth over here needs improvement
attempted to use some logic, census data, and determined that the US has sobered
up 10% of those who need it and the UK only 1%. Here is how that is determined
for sake of discussion, I do not believe it will hold up under scientific
scrutiny.

Membership of AA in UK approx. 22,000 according to GSO's 2002 survey.
Population in UK approx. 45 million according to census beaureau.
About 7% of population has drinking problem according to some agency.
Therefore, approximately 0.7% of those who need it are recovering in AA.

Membership in AA in USA approx 1 million.
USA is 5 times more populous than the UK.
Therefore they have 10x the membership per alcoholic (Assumpton alcoholism is
found at the same rate in both countries).


Roger W.

gentle_bear <gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

Hi Folks,

My recent question re AA membership prompted me to wonder what the rates of
AA membership was in various countries around the world.

I was able to calculate the following.

These ratios are expressed as a percentage of the total population of a
country.

Australia - 0.150%
USA - 0.402%
Canada - 0.297%
New Zealand - 0.095%

Naturally the USA and Canada have high rates as AA started in North America.

The New Zealand membership census is on their website.

The Australian membership is an estimate - 30,000. Don't quote me - its
based on growth from a statistic about 10 years old.

Can anyone add to these figures?

The next question is - How can we explain these differences, if at all?

In Fellowship

Robin F.

Brisbane

Australia.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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0 -1 0 0
2309 Jim Blair
Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley 3/19/2005 8:47:00 PM

THE FAMOUS QUOTE ATTRIBUTED TO HERBERT SPENCER

It may really have come originally from William Paley (1743-1805)

-------------------------------------------

Jim Blair: Scholarship on Herbert Spencer

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation03.htm#Anchor-Rumor-53375

-------------------------------------------

At about the same time "anonaholic" <anonaholic@yahoo.com> wrote in and reported
discovering the same article on the internet:

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/

-------------------------------------------

Glenn Chesnut: Jim has found new information on the quotation attributed to
Herbert Spencer,

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof
against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting
ignorance. This principle is contempt prior to examination."

Michael StGeorge argues that it was a modification of a quotation from William
Paley (1743-1805), who wrote a book in 1794, entitled " A View of the Evidences
of Christianity." In the original version, the lines read:

"The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that more especially of men of rank
and learning in it, is resolved into a principle which, in my judgment, will
account for the inefficacy of any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz.
contempt prior to examination."

StGeorge's full article:
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/index.htm
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation02.htm
http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/fitquotation03.htm

0 -1 0 0
2310 ny-aa@att.net
AA Percent of Potential Members AA Percent of Potential Members 3/20/2005 9:48:00 AM

The question was to compare A.A. penetration around the world.
The rate of substance abuse is not the same in all countries.
To see what percentage of alcoholics are in A.A. in any given
country, you need to know the population and the rate of
alcohol dependence there. For the United States, a reasonable
estimate is that one in ten alcoholics are active A.A. members.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/press/2004/NESARCNews.htm#chart

Here is a 1992 vs 2002 comparison for United States adults.
It uses the DSM IV ("APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
of Mental Disorders") definitions of Alcohol Abuse (drinking
caused trouble = problem drinkers) and Alcohol Dependent
(loss of control = real alcoholics). The distinction is
clearly defined. Note that there was a significant enough
reduction in the percentage of alcohol dependent adults that
the actual number went down in spite of population growth.

Alcohol Abuse (but not Dependent)
1992 3.0% 5.6 Million
2002 4.7% 9.7 Million
Alcohol Dependent
1992 4.4% 8.2 Million
2002 3.8% 7.9 Million
Total Abuse or Dependent
1992 7.4% 13.8 Million
2002 8.5% 17.6 Million

The 2002 A.A. membership in the U.S. was over one million.
If you assume A.A. is for "real alcoholics" then one in eight
are members. If you recognize that some "potential alcoholics"
or "problem drinkers" might join, then A.A. has one in seventeen.
Since most alcohol abusers aren't alcoholic enough to hit bottom
(yet) we could approximate that A.A. in the United States has
one in ten of all potential members.

GSO changed the way membership counts were calculated after 1993.
It would be misleading to attempt a historical comparison of
1992 vs. 2002 A.A. depth of reach without adjusting for that
change.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION SENT IN BY "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sun
Mar 20, 2005 0:34am

It’s very difficult to obtain reasonably accurate AA membership counts over any
broad geographical area. Oddly, sometimes it’s just as difficult to get an
accurate membership count in a particular group.

For a table showing US and International group and membership counts from 1935
to 2002, please check Appendix 2 contained in the PDF file at the link below.
The table in Appendix 2 is from various written materials (which are
identified). Data from 1951 on are from annual final Conference reports.

http://www.silkworth.net/timelines/AA_Timeline_2004-04-01_Public04.pdf

Group and membership count estimates must be interpreted very carefully, very
skeptically and in proper context. Group counts include only those groups asking
GSO to be listed (thousands do not). Groups may or may not report membership
estimates or update estimates over time. Members can be counted in multiple
group estimates and the composition of the numbers has changed at various times
from “reported” to “estimated.”

AA is in about 150 countries (with 51 GSOs overseas). Each year, the US/Canada
GSO attempts to contact overseas GSOs and groups requesting to be listed in
their records. Where current data are lacking, earlier year’s figures are used.
An estimate of membership of non-reporting groups is arrived at by taking an
average of reporting groups.

From the beginning, the numbers are at best, “fuzzy” and do need to be
interpreted prudently to avoid drawing erroneous conclusions. The table data are
not an accurate measure of a specific year’s increase or decrease. However,
trends over the decades are indicative (but not exact) of AA groups reaching
more places and more AA members achieving recovery.

The last (2004) estimate of AA membership showed: the US with 1,187,000 members,
Canada with 94,000 members, US and Canadian correction facilities with 66,000
members and 716,453 members outside the US and Canada.
Various US demographic statistics can be found on the web site of the US
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism at:

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/databases/qf.htm#abdep

0 -1 0 0
2311 Mel Barger
Re: Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley Quote is not Herbert Spencer but William Paley 3/19/2005 11:38:00 PM

Dear Friends,
I'm impressed by the sleuthing that enabled Jim Blair to trace this
alleged Spencer quote to William Paley. Paley is famous for "intelligent
design"---i.e., insisting that if you found a watch you must believe that
there is a watchmaker, so the "intelligent design" in the world suggests
that there must be an "intelligent designer" behind it all. This view is
under attack by people such as Richard Dawkins, who argue that no designer
is necessary to explain life.
My own proof of "intelligent design" is in the wonderful change I found
when I began to believe in, and consciously contacting, a Higher Power who
is living and working in our lives.
Mel Barger

0 -1 0 0
2312 Jim S.
Re: Pink Seven Pink Seven 3/20/2005 3:38:00 PM

Cloud Nine, Pink Cloud, Seventh Heaven----Take your pick.

0 -1 0 0
2313 daly_thomasj
The people in the Big Book stories The people in the Big Book stories 3/22/2005 7:16:00 PM

The West Baltimore Group of Alcoholics Anonymous has a section on its website
called Biographies of the Authors. This is one of the first places one ought to
check to find out more about who the people were who appear in the stories at
the end of the Big Book.

This website says that the short biographies of the various authors of the
stories in the back of the book Alcoholics Anonymous have been graciously
supplied by Nancy O., the moderator of the AA History Lovers list and her
friends.

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm

0 -1 0 0
2314 Martha Brummett
Death of former Trustee Don P. (Aurora CO) Death of former Trustee Don P. (Aurora CO) 3/24/2005 11:25:00 PM

Don Pritts of Aurora, Colorado, a former alcoholic Trustee and one who helped
carry the AA message to Russia in the late nineteen-eighties, died March 20. He
touched many people's lives and will be greatly mourned.

Martha B.
Denver CO

0 -1 0 0
2315 Glenn Chesnut
Nancy''s gone home to God Nancy''s gone home to God 3/26/2005 3:51:00 AM

I'm so sorry to have to deliver this news, but our founder and moderator Nancy
Olson died at 3:22 p.m. on Friday afternoon, March 25th.

I was told that Nancy wanted to be cremated with no funeral service, so I am not
sure what is happening at this point.

We have prepared a Memorial for her, with a brief account of her life and all
the good things she did for alcoholics over the years, and some photographs from
various points in her life. I think everyone in the group will want to look at
it. We can't attach or include photos in the AAHistoryLovers messages, so we
have posted the memorial at this website:

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem4.html

Glenn Chesnut

Eternal rest grant unto her, O Lord,
and let perpetual light shine upon her.
May the angels receive her in paradise,
at her coming may the martyrs receive her,
and bring her into the holy city Jerusalem.
There may choirs of angels receive her,
and with Lazarus who once was poor,
may she have eternal rest. Amen.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2316 Glenn Chesnut
Memorial Book for Nancy O. Memorial Book for Nancy O. 3/28/2005 6:22:00 PM

MEMORIAL BOOK FOR NANCY O.

I know that a lot of people would like to express their appreciation for Nancy
and what she did for us in the fellowship, and that there are people who would
like to share some of their memories of her with the rest of us.

Doug B. at the AAHistory website ( http://www.aahistory.com/ ) has kindly
offered to let us use his site for a Memorial Book for Nancy. The Memorial Book
is at

http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest17.html

and has a place to write your message and post it.

Doug already has some very beautiful Memorial Books for a number of warmly
remembered people, including Dr. Paul (acceptance is the answer), Esther
Coleman, Searcy W., and Sue Smith Windows.

And I suppose that since Nancy's last contributions to the fellowship were
through this AA History Lovers web group which literally spans the whole globe
by electronic means, and touches every continent, a kind of "website memorial
service" of this sort would be the only way that all of us in the
AAHistoryLovers could ever get together in one place.

Glenn C.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2317 Martha Brummett
Don P. Memorial Service Don P. Memorial Service 3/25/2005 12:39:00 PM

> Don Pritts of Aurora, Colorado, a former alcoholic Trustee and one who helped
carry the AA message to Russia in the late nineteen-eighties, died March 20. He
touched many people's lives and will be greatly mourned.

The memorial service will be held Monday, April 11, at 2:00 p.m. at the Mile
High Church of Religious Science, 9077 W. Alameda Ave., Lakewood, Colorado.

Cards, etc., to:

Ms. Jackie Pritts, 1009 S. Lewiston Way, Aurora CO 80017.




Regards,
Martha B.
Denver CO

0 -1 0 0
2318 Don Kozak
Choose conception Choose conception 3/30/2005 1:03:00 PM

Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own
conception of GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a
regular part of Oxford Group teaching?
TIA Don...TGCHAHO...

0 -1 0 0
2319 Jon Markle
Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder 3/30/2005 8:34:00 PM

Anyone have any other info regarding this person or her work?

Thanks, Jon Markle, Raleigh

-----Original Message-----

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-weathers30mar30,1,
640786.story

Brenda Weathers, 68; Founded Center for Alcoholics
By Elaine Woo
Times Staff Writer

March 30, 2005

Brenda Weathers, an activist, writer and founder of a pioneering alcoholism and
drug recovery center for women in Los Angeles, died March 20 at her Long Beach
home. She was 68. A lifelong smoker, Weathers died of lung cancer, said her
partner, Vicki Lewis.

Weathers founded the Alcoholism Center for Women in 1974 and served as its first
director. The center, which operates out of two Victorian-style houses on
Alvarado Street west of downtown Los Angeles, was believed to be the first such
facility in the country to primarily serve gay women.

A recovered alcoholic herself, Weathers understood that society treated drunk
women more harshly than their male counterparts. Lesbian alcoholics, she
believed, had three strikes against them - female, gay and alcoholic - that
resulted in their drinking remaining hidden longer. Lesbians, like gay men, are
believed to have higher rates of alcoholism than the general population, but
they were often shunned by traditional recovery programs, which were dominated
by men and sometimes compounded the stigma that gay women felt by trying to
convert them to heterosexuality.

The Alcoholism Center for Women, which began as a program at what is now the Gay
and Lesbian Community Services Center in Hollywood, encouraged women to accept
themselves and fostered a feminist awareness.

In addition to offering traditional crisis intervention, counseling and weekly
Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, it organized dances, potluck suppers and other
recreational activities as alternatives to gay bars.

"Women were fighting to be heard, and it was difficult during those times,"
recalled Nora Steel, a longtime counselor at the center who worked with
Weathers. "Brenda forged ahead and said, 'We have issues and needs. We're out
there drinking and dying and no one cares, and I want do something.' She
was courageous."

Born in Smithfield, Texas, the daughter of a Baptist preacher had been expelled
from Texas Women's University in 1957 after college officials learned of her
sexual orientation. When the father of her girlfriend discovered their
relationship, he beat both girls with a rubber hose.

Weathers moved to California in the 1960s. She earned a bachelor's degree in
anthropology from Cal State Long Beach, then became a social worker for Los
Angeles County. She eventually turned to alcohol in an attempt to hold together
her dual identities as a closeted lesbian and straight professional, but her
drinking got out of hand and she quit to avoid being fired.

She opened a second-hand store in Los Angeles called the Junk Lady, where she
would cloister herself after hours and get drunk on jug wine.

"I'd wish and wish someone would call me, and no one did," she told The Times in
a 1975 interview. "I would be filled with self-loathing. I'd hit myself on the
head, throw myself against the wall, screaming, 'I want out of this.' "

She eventually became sober through a self-help program and began working at the
Gay and Lesbian Center, where she helped write a proposal for a $300,000 federal
grant to start an alcoholism recovery program for women. The proposal was funded
and evolved into the Alcoholism Center for Women, with a 13-bed recovery house
and bustling outpatient program. It observed its 30th anniversary last year at a
celebration honoring Weathers.

After leaving the center in 1977, Weathers moved to San Francisco, where she ran
an alcohol and drug recovery center for the Whitman-Radclyffe Foundation. In the
early 1980s, she directed the Gay and Lesbian Chemical Dependency Program in
Seattle, where she met Lewis, who became her longtime partner.

Weathers is also survived by a sister, Carolyn Weathers of Long Beach.

0 -1 0 0
2320 Colston
Re: Choose conception Choose conception 3/31/2005 8:21:00 AM

"It is so with the decision about Christ. We surrender as much of
ourselves as we can to as much of Christ as we understand." p71 How
to Become A Christian - Samuel M. Shoemaker... 1953, Harper & Row.

On Mar 30, 2005 7:03 PM, Don Kozak <d_kozak@hotmail.com> wrote:
Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own conception of
GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a regular part
of Oxford Group teaching?

0 -1 0 0
2321 Jduplain@aol.com
Re: Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder Brenda Weathers, Alcoholism Center for Women founder 3/31/2005 4:07:00 AM

Hi Jon:

I was very sad to hear of the loss of my friend Brenda Weathers. When I was
Director, Office of Women, National Council on Alcoholism, (1975-78) Brenda was
my contact for the gay community.

Jan Du Plain
Du Plain Enterprises, Inc.
4201 Cathedral Avenue, NW Suite 1011W
Washington, DC 20016
Tel: 202-244-3338 Fax: 202-244-4539 Toll: 1-866-DUPLAIN
jan@duplain.com
www.duplain.com

-----Original Message-----
Anyone have any other info regarding this person or her work?
Thanks, Jon Markle, Raleigh

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-weathers30mar30,1,
640786.story

Brenda Weathers, 68; Founded Center for Alcoholics
By Elaine Woo, Times Staff Writer
March 30, 2005

Brenda Weathers, an activist, writer and founder of a pioneering
alcoholism and drug recovery center for women in Los Angeles, died March 20 at
her Long Beach home. She was 68. A lifelong smoker, Weathers died of lung
cancer, said her partner, Vicki Lewis.

Weathers founded the Alcoholism Center for Women in 1974 and served as its first
director. The center, which operates out of two Victorian-style houses on
Alvarado Street west of downtown Los Angeles, was believed to be the first such
facility in the country to primarily serve gay women.

0 -1 0 0
2322 Bill Lash
RE: Choose conception Choose conception 3/31/2005 9:56:00 AM

The Oxford Group expression that I have heard about was, "Bring as much of
yourself as you understand to as much of God as you understand." I believe that
probably out of frustration (you can tell in the Big Book that Ebby went back &
forth for a while with Bill W. about the God thing), Ebby finally said to Bill,
"Listen, you don't need to believe what I believe, you can choose your own
conception of this Power."

Just Love, Barefoot Bill

We received similar messages from "John" <burcjo@yahoo.com> who linked it to the
Rev. Sam Shoemaker.

Also from Karen <honey_dot_com@yahoo.com> who referred to the frustration that
Ebby must have been feeling by that point as an important part of the context of
the statement.

-----Original Message----- From: Don Kozak d_kozak@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:03 PM

Can some one tell me where Ebby came up with, "choose your own conception of
GOD"? Was this a quotation from some standard source? Was this a regular part
of Oxford Group teaching

0 -1 0 0
2323 TBaerMojo@aol.com
Re: Choose conception Choose conception 3/31/2005 4:54:00 AM

On the source of the idea that we should choose our own conception of God:

Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship
http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html

There may be a clue here from the Emmanuel Movement in Boston and its
influence on Rowland H.

Tim B

0 -1 0 0
2324 Mark Morse
Wombley''s clapboard factory Wombley''s clapboard factory 3/31/2005 12:41:00 PM

I would appreciate any information anyone may have about the origin and
reference of the phrase: "Then came the inevitable explosion---something like
that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory." from the 12 and 12.

I have pasted below the only responses I have been able to get on this
question. The Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library (RLL) in Madison
wasn't able to find the information.

Thanks!

Mark M.
Eau Claire, WI

******************
>>> "Otteson, M. Jeanne DPI-RLL" <m.jeanne.otteson@dpi.state.wi.us>
03/31/05 10:01 AM >>>
REPLY from RLL:

RE: A.A. Tradition Four - Wombley's Explosion

I also found the same information that you did in the AA Discussion
Groups. I have not been able to find any other substantial facts. I emailed the
Dorset Historical Society (Dorset, VT) requesting
information, but never received a response.

Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was born in East
Dorset, Vermont - so the Vermont connection seems credible.
RLL/jo

M. Jeanne Otteson, Reference Librarian
Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library
Madison, WI 53716

Really found nothing except for some AA history chat:

Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar
Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vt. before the turn of the century. The
Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the Ward
family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county.
(Sarasot, Sarasota, FL)

And a reference in the AA History Lovers:

From: Jim Blair <jblair@v...> Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:40 pm
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] re: clapboard factory explosion

David wrote: "Does anyone know if the Wombleys clapboard factory
explosion (referenced in Tradition 4 in the 12 & 12) was an actual event, or
just a figure of speech?"

I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East
Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still be
seen.

0 -1 0 0
2325 Audrey Borden
Boston AA Circa 1949 Boston AA Circa 1949 4/4/2005 4:37:00 PM

Greetings AA History Lovers,

I'm hoping someone here might help me decipher some references to AA in
Boston, made by an AA speaker on a tape I have.

The speaker is describing some of his experiences in Boston AA in 1949. He
mentions talking with some other AA members at a placy on Myrtle Street
behind the State House. I am trying to figure out what this place was and
what connection it might have had to AA in Boston at that time. An Internet
search this morning turned up an AA meeting that meets at 19 Myrtle Street
today, in a place called Beacon Chambers, but Beacon Chambers doesn't
suggest anything to me.

The man in the tape describes this place as a "father, son, holy ghost
house," words that suggest a church to me, but current Boston maps show no
churches at (or near) that address. Might it have been a church then, or a
church-sponsored half way house, or other place alcoholics in need of help
might have lived or gathered? Does anyone here have any ideas?

And finally, the speaker also mentions that he'd heard Bill Wilson speak "in
a brown bagger lunch. The office workers used to run in, chomp on their
sandwiches and listed intently to what sobriety was all about."

Is he refering to an AA group called the "Brown Baggers?" What office
workers might he mean, people who worked in this place on Myrtle Street?
Government workers at the State House? I have no clue!

As I know very little about Boston geography or AA development in Boston any
help you could give me would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Audrey Borden
Sober in San Francisco

0 -1 0 0
2326 Cindy Miller
Re: Boston AA Circa 1949 Boston AA Circa 1949 4/6/2005 11:54:00 PM

A "father, son, and holy ghost" house isn't a church--rather, a tiny
3-floor row house consisting of one room on each floor....

On Monday, April 4, 2005, at 05:37 PM, Audrey Borden wrote:

The man in the tape describes this place as a "father, son, holy ghost house,"
words that suggest a church to me, but current Boston maps show no churches at
(or near) that address. Might it have been a church then, or a church-sponsored
half way house, or other place alcoholics in need of help might have lived or
gathered? Does anyone here have any ideas?

0 -1 0 0
2327 oicuradry12
who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/9/2005 11:23:00 PM

To all grateful historians abroad:
My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the first person
Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but some other person who
was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name was lost to A.A. history? If
anyone has the answer I would be forever grateful!

0 -1 0 0
2328 Carl P.
The two patients in the Doctors Opinion The two patients in the Doctors Opinion 4/10/2005 3:10:00 PM

Dr Silkworth refers to two patients on page xxxi in the fourth
edition big book.

Can somebody verify who these patients are ?

1. "one year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very
strange sensation. I knew the man by name" ?

2. "When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case
brought in by a physician prominent in New York. The patient had
made his own diagnosis, and deciding his situation hopeless, had
hidden in a deserted barn" ?

Many Thanks
Carl P.
Enfield.UK.

0 -1 0 0
2329 Glenn Chesnut
The Factory Owner & the Convict The Factory Owner & the Convict 4/12/2005 5:00:00 AM

Notice of new book on A.A. history:

Glenn C., The Factory Owner & the Convict, Vol. 1 of Lives and Teachings of the
A.A. Old Timers, April 2005, ISBN 0-595-34872-6, xii + 325 pp. Published by the
Hindsfoot Foundation and iUniverse.

The beginnings of the A.A. center which developed in the St. Joseph river valley
and spread its influence outward through many parts of Indiana and Michigan
during the 1940's. Includes material on an important early A.A. prison group and
on early black A.A. groups along the Chicago-Gary-South Bend axis which runs
along the southern coast of Lake Michigan.

For more information see:

http://hindsfoot.org/

http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2330 Aloke Dutt
AA movies AA movies 4/7/2005 12:30:00 AM

I am collecting commercial films like

>The Lost Weekend,
>When A man Loves a Woman &
>The Days Of Wine & Roses.
where alcoholism & recovery in AA are so wonderfully depicted.

Are there any other such movies also ?

Thanks for your help.
Aloke
in India




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2331 Charlie Bishop Jr.
Re: Wombley''s clapboard factory Wombley''s clapboard factory 4/11/2005 9:33:00 PM

Dear all: The following is unsubstantiated hearsay history...

I recall seeing a modern art painting and a commentary about it comparing it
to the Explosion of Wombley's

Clapboard (or Roof Shingle) Factory. The multi-colored shingles were
exploding outward in total chaos in the

painting. So maybe my handicapped memory will provoke some real research
in the explosion of the factory.

servus, Charlie Bishop, Jr.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Morse" <markm@eauclaire.lib.wi.us>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:41 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Wombley's clapboard factory


>
>
> I would appreciate any information anyone may have about the origin and
reference of the phrase: "Then came the inevitable explosion---something
like that day the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory." from the 12
and 12.
>
> I have pasted below the only responses I have been able to get on this
> question. The Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library (RLL) in Madison
> wasn't able to find the information.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark M.
> Eau Claire, WI
>
> ******************
> >>> "Otteson, M. Jeanne DPI-RLL" <m.jeanne.otteson@dpi.state.wi.us>
> 03/31/05 10:01 AM >>>
> REPLY from RLL:
>
> RE: A.A. Tradition Four - Wombley's Explosion
>
> I also found the same information that you did in the AA Discussion
> Groups. I have not been able to find any other substantial facts. I
emailed the Dorset Historical Society (Dorset, VT) requesting
> information, but never received a response.
>
> Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was born in East
> Dorset, Vermont - so the Vermont connection seems credible.
> RLL/jo
>
> M. Jeanne Otteson, Reference Librarian
> Wisconsin Reference and Loan Library
> Madison, WI 53716
>
> Really found nothing except for some AA history chat:
>
> Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an
Edgar Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vt. before the turn of the
century. The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as
that of the Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through
Chittenden county. (Sarasot, Sarasota, FL)
>
> And a reference in the AA History Lovers:
>
> From: Jim Blair <jblair@v...> Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:40 pm
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] re: clapboard factory explosion
>
> David wrote: "Does anyone know if the Wombleys clapboard factory
> explosion (referenced in Tradition 4 in the 12 & 12) was an actual event,
or just a figure of speech?"
>
> I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East
> Dorset and he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can
still be seen.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
2332 Jim Blair
Re: The two patients in the Doctors Opinion The two patients in the Doctors Opinion 4/11/2005 8:33:00 AM

FROM JIM BLAIR:

Can somebody verify who these patients are ?

1. "one year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very strange
sensation. I knew the man by name" ?

Hank Parkhurst

2. "When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in
by a physician prominent in New York.

Fitz Mayo

--------------------------------------------

FROM CHARLES KNAPP: <cdknapp@pacbell.net>

#1 - Hank Parkhurst His Story "The Unbeliever" in First Edition. Hank was a
high-pressure kind of guy. Was called a "promoter among promoters." Worked for
Standard Oil of New Jersey.

#2 - Fitz Mayo author of "Our Southern Friend".

--------------------------------------------
SAME INFO ALSO FROM:

"Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net>

"Tommy" <skyrocket1954@yahoo.com>

0 -1 0 0
2333 Dick Spaedt
Dr. Silkworth''s two patients Dr. Silkworth''s two patients 4/11/2005 8:38:00 AM

Dr Silkworth refers to two patients on page xxxi in the fourth edition big book.

Patient #1 was Henry (Hank) Parkhurst, Bill's partner in writing the Big Book.
He wrote the chapter "To Employers". His story "The Unbeliever" was in the
first edition of the Big Book.

Patient #2 was John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo, whose story is "Our Southern
Friend" page 208 in 4th Edition. He is also the minister's son referred to on
pages 56 & 57 of the text.

0 -1 0 0
2334 Diz Titcher
Re: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/11/2005 5:37:00 AM

The first person that Bill and Bob tried to help was Eddie Reilly(sp), whose
wife was a professor at Kent State Univ. They moved in the middle of the night
and Eddie showed up with two years of sobriety at Dr. Bob's funeral.

Diz T.
Tallahassee

--------------------------------------
From: "dikilee" <dikilee@yahoo.com>

The first person Bill and Bob worked with was Edgar "Eddie" R. He didn't get
sober then, but showed up at Dr. Bob's funeral in 1950 and had been sober for a
short time.

Dick Spaedt

0 -1 0 0
2335 Mitchell K.
Re: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/11/2005 6:30:00 PM

There is a letter at the Stepping Stones Archives written by Bill to
Lois on Dr. Bob's letterhead from May 1935 while Bill was staying at
Dr. Bob's home. Bill states that they met with a Dr. McKay who was
a "rake." Given the early date of that letter I would place this person
as the first one they met with. There was no reference to any earlier
people in that letter.


> To all grateful historians abroad:
> My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the
first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but
some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name
was lost to A.A. history? If anyone has the answer I would be forever
grateful!

0 -1 0 0
2336 Charles Knapp
RE: Who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? Who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/12/2005 1:00:00 AM

Actually there was a Dr. McKay they tried working with first, according to a
letter dated May 1935. This was prior to Dr Bob's last drink. Don't know what
ever happen to him. But yes the name of AA # 3 for a short time was Eddie Riley
and in Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers you can find more about him on pages 77-78;
80-81; 85,93,97,99 and in Pass It On pages 151,152,159

Charles from California
____________________________________

From: "oicuradry12" <oicuradry12@yahoo.com>
Subject: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?

My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the first person
Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed" but some other person who
was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose name was lost to A.A. history?

0 -1 0 0
2337 ArtSheehan
RE: who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? who was the man that almost was A.A.#3? 4/12/2005 7:58:00 PM

Two alcoholics in Akron, OH unsuccessfully preceded Bill Dotson for
the opportunity to be AA #3: the first was a Dr McKay, the second was
Eddie Reilly.



SOURCE REFERENCES:



AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS

AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS

AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft
cover)

BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography (hard cover)

BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)

BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)

CH - Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by
Christine Brewer (soft cover)

DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS

EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)

GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft
cover)

GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)

LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition, soft cover)

NW - New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)

PIO - Pass It On, AAWS

SI - Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah (soft cover)



1935



May 11, (AGAA says May 10) Bill W, in poor spirits, and tempted to
enter the Mayflower Hotel bar, realized he needed another alcoholic.
He telephoned members of the clergy listed on the lobby directory. He
reached the Rev Walter Tunks who referred him to Norman Sheppard who
then referred him to Henrietta Sieberling (47 years old and an Oxford
Group adherent). Bill introduced himself as “a member of the OG and a
rum hound from NY.” Henrietta met with Bill at her gatehouse (Stan
Hywet Hall) on the Sieberling estate. She arranged a dinner meeting
the next day with Dr Bob and Anne. (AACOA 65-67, SI 21, BW-RT 212-213,
DBGO 60, 63-67, NG 26-28, PIO 134-138, GB 19) Note: some stories
(AACOA 67) say that when Henrietta called Anne, Dr Bob was passed out
under the kitchen table. He was upstairs in bed (re Big Book story Dr.
Bob’s Nightmare pg 179 4th ed).



May 12, Mother’s Day (AGAA says Mother’s Day was May 11) Bill W (age
39) met Dr Bob (age 55) Anne and their young son Bob (age 17) at
Henrietta Sieberling’s gatehouse at 5PM. Dr Bob, too hung over to eat
dinner, planned to stay only 15 minutes. Privately, in the library,
Bill told Bob of his alcoholism experience in the manner suggested by
Dr Silkworth. Bob opened up and he and Bill talked until after 11PM.
(AACOA vii, 67-70, BW-RT 214-215, DBGO 66-69, NG 28-32, BW-FH 4, GB
21)



May, Bill W wrote a letter to Lois saying that he and Dr Bob tried in
vain to sober up a Dr McKay, a “once prominent surgeon” who developed
into a “terrific rake and drunk” (BW-40 Appendix C). Henrietta
Sieberling arranged for Bill to stay at the Portage Country Club.
(DBGO 70, 77)



Jun, Bill W moved to Dr Bob’s house at the request of Anne Smith. Bill
insisted on keeping two bottles of liquor in the kitchen to prove that
he and Bob could live in the presence of liquor. Both worked with
alcoholics and went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at
the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to
the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73,
DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture
readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians
Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96
says that meetings were held at Dr Bob’s house and moved to the
Williams’ house in late 1936 or early 1937)



Jun 10 (more likely Jun 17) after a multi-day binge on the way to, and
at, an AMA convention in Atlantic City, NJ, a drunken Dr Bob was
picked up at his office nurse’s house in Cuyahoga Falls. Bob went
through a 3-day sobering up period with Bill W’s help. Scheduled for a
surgery at City Hospital, Bob pronounced, “I am going through with
this - I have placed both operation and myself in God’s hands. I’m
going to do what it takes to get sober and stay that way.” Bill gave
Bob his last drink (a beer) and a “goofball” (a barbiturate) to steady
him prior to the surgery. (AACOA vii, 70-71, SI 22, DBGO 72-75, NG 32,
PIO 147-149, AA video Bill’s Own Story)



Jun 11 (more likely Jun 18), Dr Bob suggested that he and Bill W work
with other alcoholics. A local Minister, J C Wright, provided them
with a prospect. They tried in vain, throughout the summer, to sober
up Edgar (Eddie) Reilly (described as an “alcoholic atheist” and “able
to produce a major crisis of some sort about every other day”). Eddie
missed the chance to be AA #3 but he showed up at Dr Bob’s funeral in
1950. He was sober a year and attending the Youngstown, OH group.
(AACOA 72-73, DBGO 77-81, 85, NG 37, 319, PIO 151-152, AAGA 184, CH
5-6)



Jun 28, Bill W, Dr Bob and Eddie R visited Bill Dotson (Big Book story
Alcoholic Anonymous Number Three) at City Hospital. A prominent
attorney in Akron, Bill D had been hospitalized 8 times in 1935
because of his drinking. Bill W and Bob visited Bill D every day. It
took about 5 days before Bill D would say that he could not control
his drinking. He checked out of the hospital on Jul 4 and within a
week, was back in court sober and arguing a case. (AACOA 71-73, AABB
184, BW-RT 219-220, DBGO 81-89, NG 37, 319, PIO 152-154, GB 42, AGAA
202-203) (Note: Bill D was Ohio’s Delegate for Panel 1, the first
General Service Conference in 1951).



Jul (?), Lois went to Akron to join Bill W at the Smith’s house for
two weeks (LR 197, NG 41, BW-FH 85).



Jul, encouraged by T Henry Williams, Ernie Galbraith (AA #4, Big Book
story The Seven Month Slip) contacted Dr Bob and sobered up. He later
married Dr Bob’s adopted daughter Sue in Sep 1941. Ernie could not
stay sober and their marriage was a disaster. Tragically, on Jun 11,
1969, their daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking the life of
her 6-year-old daughter Sandy. Ernie G died two years later to the
day. (AACOA 7, 73, DBGO 92-95, AAGA 68, CH 72-74, PIO 154-155)



Aug 26, Bill W returned to NYC. Meetings were held at his house at 182
Clinton St on Tues. nights. His home also became a halfway house, of
sorts, for drunks. (AACOA 74, BW-RT 225, PIO 160-162, GTBT 96, GB 51,
AGAA 145)



Nov 19, Ebby T came to live with Bill W and Lois at Clinton St. (LR
197, EBBY 72, NG 42-44)



Winter, Henry (Hank) Parkhurst (Big Book story The Unbeliever) and
John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo (Big Book story Our Southern Friend)
sobered up at Towns Hospital. Hank and Fitz provided a big help to
Bill W. Hank started AA in NJ at his house and Fitz started AA in
Washington, DC (AACOA 16-17, 74, LR 101, BW-RT 225-226, NG 43-44) (PIO
191 says 1937)



Cheers

Arthur S

_____

From: oicuradry12 [mailto:oicuradry12@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 11:23 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] who was the man that almost was A.A.#3?




To all grateful historians abroad:
My study group and I have a burning question, is it true that the
first person Bill & Bob visited wasn't Bill D. "the man on the bed"
but some other person who was reported as a "dismal failure" and whose
name was lost to A.A. history? If anyone has the answer I would be
forever grateful!









_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2338 Glenn Chesnut
List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism 4/17/2005 1:09:00 AM

There were so many messages sent in on this topic, that I thought it was best to
gather them together into a single posting. When a number of people all sent in
the same movie, I did not always list everyone. -- Glenn C.

------------------------------

Aloke in India started us off with three movies:

"THE LOST WEEKEND"

"WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN"

"DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES"

------------------------------

A GOOD LIST OF MOVIES WITH EXCELLENT COMMENTARIES adds some other movies to the
list given below:

From: philip luppy lupp713@yahoo.com Here is a link to a bibliographic essay on
motion pictures and AA:

http://www.bks.no/partyend.pdf

------------------------------

"MY NAME IS BILL W."

From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com

A must have in any AA film collection is "My Name is Bill W." starring James
Woods and James Garner. The story of Bill and the early days in AA. Much Love
Disco Dave

From: billyk billyk3@yahoo.com

My Name is Bill W., a Hallmark film, starring James Woods as Bill and Jo Beth
Williams as his wife. It is the story of Bill's life. It is, in my opinion, the
best AA movie made (and I've seen them all).

From: "Diz Titcher" rtitcher@comcast.net How about A Man called Bill. Diz T.

"DRUNKS"

From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com

There is also a terrible film from 1997 called "Drunks" which is an example of
how AA has become group therapy in many places. Don't see it.

From: Ron Sessions pqrgs@yahoo.com

I don't know about wonderfully depicted, but there is a film that I think does a
VERY good job of depicting what AA has become - the movie is called 'Drunks'
from mid-1990's staring Richard Lewis, Faye Dunaway and others. It shows the
result of the self-help, pick any higher power you want AA that is so common
today in a very revealing light.

"CLEAN AND SOBER"

From: Lynda lynda_rivers@yahoo.com

Another great movie that you might want to add to your collection is Clean and
Sober, starring Michael Keaton. It was released in 1988 and it's excellent. Have
a great day! Lynda

From: David Ballester david.ballester@gmail.com "Clean and Sober" is also a
classic with Michael Keaton.

From: george cleveland pauguspass@yahoo.com Clean and Sober

"MY NAME IS KATE"

From: billyk billyk3@yahoo.com "My Name is Kate"

"28 DAYS"

From: rich northouse rnorthouse@wi.rr.com 28 Days is a good one.

From: "Rob White" rwhite@psych.umaryland.edu

I like Sandra Bullock's movie, "28 days." It's a great story about a woman that
goes to rehab.

From: MarionORedstone@aol.com

28 days with Sandra Bullock. Marion O. Redstone, Atty., Indianapolis, Indiana

From: george cleveland pauguspass@yahoo.com 28 Days--not a milestone.

"I'LL CRY TOMORROW"

From: Pam Lanning prlanning@gmail.com

I'll Cry Tomorrow. It's a true story. I just read the book.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048191/plotsummary

Deprived of a normal childhood by her ambitious mother, Katie (Jo Van Fleet),
Lillian Roth (Susan Hayward) becomes a star of Broadway and Hollywood before she
is twenty. Shortly before her marriage to her childhood sweetheart, David
Tredman (Ray Danton), he dies and Lillian takes her first drink of many down the
road of becoming an alcoholic. She enters into a short-lived marriage to an
immature aviation cadet, Wallie (Don Taylor), followed by a divorce and then
marriage to a sadistic brute and abuser Tony Bardeman (Richard Conte). After a
failed suicide attempt, Burt McGuire (Eddie Albert)comes to her aid and helps
her find the road back to happiness after sixteen years in a nightmare world,
not counting the first twenty with her mother.

"SHAKES THE CLOWN"

From: "Richard Johnson" hotshots@elltel.net

One done in 70's and a great comedy about an alcoholic clown, "Shakes the
Clown."

"SHATTERED SPIRITS"

From: "Richard Johnson" hotshots@elltel.net

Martin Sheen, Shattered Spirits, 1989. Great Movie!!

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net Shattered Spirits- Charlie Sheen

"ON THE NICKLE"

From: "Robert Stonebraker" rstonebraker212@insightbb.com

"On The Nickle" is a thoroughly forgotten film about skid row hi-jinx in Los
Angeles. It is directed by Ralph Waite who also plays a part in this 1980 movie.
It is a film which I was lucky enough to tape from the "Z Channel" (now defunct)
in Los Angeles many years ago. The brainchild of actor Ralph Waite (of Waltons),
it was independently made on a very low budget. In it, Waite manages to balance
the tragedy of skid-row life with humor and irony, and in spite of an easy,
fellini-esque ending, tells a moving story of a man (Donald Moffat) a former
alcoholic and skid row dweller, struggling to "put his demons to rest" as he
searches the "Nickle" (Fifth Street) for his old pal, C.G., played by Ralph
Waite. The movie is bookended by the Tom Waits song, "On The Nickle", presumably
written for the movie, and has a score that quotes the song frequently. Maybe
the Independent Film Channel will consider running it.

Bob S., from Indiana

"VITAL SIGNS"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Vital Signs - Ed Asner

"LEAVING LAS VEGAS"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Leaving Las Vegas

"UNDER THE INFLUENCE"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Under The Influence -Keanau Reeves, Andy Griffith

"STUART SAVES HIS FAMILY"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Stuart Saves His Family

"THE GREAT SANTINI"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

The Great Santini

"ON THIN ICE"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

On Thin Ice

"LADY SINGS THE BLUES"

From: "John Wikelius" nov85_gr@graceba.net

Lady Sings the Blues

"SMASH UP"

From: "Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net

Try Smash Up, with Susan Hayward, Aloke, which came out about the same time as
Lost Weekend.

"LIFE OF THE PARTY"

From: Julie zulie55@yahoo.com

There is a movie coming on encore, April 23, "Life of the Party: The Story of
Beatrice," 1982. It has Carol Burnett in it.

0 -1 0 0
2339 Carl P.
Ebby Thacher Ebby Thacher 4/16/2005 9:38:00 PM

Hi all,

I would like to thank all the people that replied to my last
couple of questions.

I have another question that I need help with. When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8,
and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's intention to make amends to Bill?

Many Thanks
Carl P.
Enfield UK

0 -1 0 0
2340 Jarvis
celebrated American statesman celebrated American statesman 4/14/2005 8:14:00 AM

Hello
On page 50 of the B.B. the authors refer to "a celebrated American statesman" as
having said "Let's look at the record". Who are they refering to, who is the
statesman?
Thanks
Jarvis

0 -1 0 0
2341 Bill Lash
Toronto 2005 AA Int''l. Conv. Available Hotel Rooms Toronto 2005 AA Int''l. Conv. Available Hotel Rooms 4/13/2005 9:02:00 AM

Shortcut to: http://2005internationaltorontoaccommodations.com/

0 -1 0 0
2342 Jim Blair
Re: celebrated American statesman celebrated American statesman 4/17/2005 9:37:00 AM

Jarvis asked
On page 50 of the B.B. the authors refer to "a celebrated American statesman" as
having said "Let's look at the record". Who are they referring to, who is the
statesman?

Alfred E. Smith. Four time Governor of New York and unsuccessful first Roman
Catholic presidential candidate.
Jim
____________________
MODERATOR: WE WERE ALSO GIVEN A GOOD REFERENCE BY RICK B. FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO
KNOW MORE.

Rickydotcom <rickydotcom@yahoo.com>
According to the Anonymous Press Study Edition of the Big Book it is Alfred E.
Smith, former governor of New York. See this website for a bio on Smith
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1495.html
Be well, Rick Benchoff, Hagerstown, Maryland
____________________
MODERATOR: AND OTHERS AMONG OUR INTREPID HISTORICAL RESEARCHERS ALSO CAME UP
WITH THE NAME ALFRED E. SMITH
Sbickell@aol.com
lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>
J N P <jopet34@yahoo.com>
"Charles Knapp" <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
"Roy V. Tellis" Baldwin, NY <roytellis@yahoo.com>
Thumper (Paula) <dsgrl121501@yahoo.com>

0 -1 0 0
2343 Mel Barger
Re: Ebby Thacher Ebby Thacher 4/17/2005 8:12:00 AM

Hi Carl,
I doubt that Ebby had any amends to make to Bill, as he hadn't harmed him
in any way. They did take that drunken airplane ride in 1929 but Bill was
as much involved in it as Ebby and no lasting harm resulted from it. The
pilot might have been drunk too and it was a dangerous action, but they got
through it.
As I understand it, Ebby was living in the Calvary Mission and just
happened to drop in on some friends in a Wall Street brokerage office. (Ebby
had worked briefly as a broker in Albany.) The friend (or friends) told him
that Bill was in terrible shape in Brooklyn. Ebby then decided to help
Bill, if he could. So Ebby called Lois and this led to his call to Bill.
As you can read in "Pass It On," Bill even visited the mission where Ebby
was staying and made a fool of himself. Bill finally decided to go back to
Towns Hospital, where he had the transforming experience mentioned in his
personal story.
Mel Barger


----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl P." <cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk>
I have another question that I need help with. When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8,
and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's intention to make amends to Bill?
Many Thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK

0 -1 0 0
2344 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Ebby Thacher Ebby Thacher 4/17/2005 9:46:00 AM

Hi Carl

Based on Mel B's book ("Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W" pg 66) Ebby's own
recollection of events was that he wound up first contacting Lois Wilson who
invited him over for dinner. In late November 1934, Ebby visited Bill W at 182
Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to
another." A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C (see "Pass It On" pg 116 -
several other books document this as well). Ebby and Shep spoke to Bill about
the Oxford Group (Bill did not think too highly of Shep).

Lois recalled in an interview that Ebby visited several times, once even staying
for dinner (see "Not God" pg 311). Mel B also notes that while this may not
reconcile with Bill's description of events it occurred at time when Bill was at
the worst of his drinking. Ebby's recollection of events would probably be far
more accurate since he was not drinking at the time.

Relatively speaking, I don't get the sense that Ebby and Bill did all that much
drinking and socializing together except when Bill visited Albany, NY. Ebby
lived in Albany, NY (with some time also spent in Vermont) while Bill lived in
NY City (there is one very notable story, however, involving an airplane ride
from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Even though Ebby and Bill spent one year of
high school together it appears that Ebby's family was more closely aligned
Lois' family (and Lois' brother Rogers) through their mutual vacationing each
summer in Vermont (see "Lois Remembers" pg 7).

My sense of events was that Ebby, who was then residing at the Calvary Mission,
was simply being a good Oxford Group member and trying to help others in the
same manner he was helped by fellow OG alcoholics Rowland H, Shep C and Cebra G.

Cheers

Arthur

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl P.<mailto:cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk>
When Ebby rang Bill W., page 8, and asked if he might come over, was Ebby's
intention to make amends to Bill?
Many Thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK

0 -1 0 0
2345 Mel Barger
Re: Ebby Thacher Ebby Thacher 4/19/2005 8:06:00 AM

Hi Friends,
I agree with Art's review here re Ebby's contacts with Bill, etc. Bill was,
however, a friend of Shep's but Shep didn't think he had had much of a drinking
problem and wasn't qualified to serve as an example of recovery! Shep later
drank again, but only as the moderate drinker he had been right along. He had
been abstaining because that was required by the Oxford Group. Shep still had
some money and could take Ebby, Lois, and Bill to dinner. He became a
lieutenant colonel during WWII and then was general manager of A.O. Smith
Company in Milwaukee. He was retired and living in Earlysville, VA, when I
talked with him by phone. Lois also knew Shep well and mentioned that he was a
great golfer. Undoubtedly he and Bill had
played together at the Ekwanok club in 1929 when Bill acquired golf fever.
Mel Barger

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 10:46 AM

Hi Carl

Based on Mel B's book ("Ebby The Man Who Sponsored Bill W" pg 66) Ebby's own
recollection of events was that he wound up first contacting Lois Wilson who
invited him over for dinner. In late November 1934, Ebby visited Bill W at 182
Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one alcoholic talking to
another." A few days later, Ebby returned with Shep C see "Pass It On" pg 116 -
several other books document this as well).

Ebby and Shep spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group (Bill did not think too
highly of Shep). Lois recalled in an interview that Ebby visited several times,
once even staying for dinner (see "Not God" pg 311). Mel B also notes that while
this may not reconcile with Bill's description of events it occurred at time
when Bill was at the worst of his drinking. Ebby's recollection of events would
probably be far more accurate since he was not drinking at the time.

Relatively speaking, I don't get the sense that Ebby and Bill did all that much
drinking and socializing together except when Bill visited Albany, NY. Ebby
lived in Albany, NY (with some time also spent in Vermont) while Bill lived in
NY City (there is one very notable story, however, involving an airplane ride
from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT). Even though Ebby and Bill spent one year of
high school together it appears that Ebby's family was more closely aligned
Lois' family (and Lois' brother Rogers) through their mutual vacationing each
summer in Vermont (see "Lois Remembers" pg 7).

My sense of events was that Ebby, who was then residing at the Calvary Mission,
was simply being a good Oxford Group member and trying to help others in the
same manner he was helped by fellow OG alcoholics Rowland H, Shep C and Cebra G.

Cheers, Arthur

0 -1 0 0
2346 Glenn Chesnut
The dozens of Oxford Group tenets The dozens of Oxford Group tenets 4/25/2005 3:08:00 PM

QUESTION ASKED BY: "Carl P." <cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk> Wed Apr 20, 2005

SUBJECT: Oxford Group Tenets

Please can somebody confirm, did the Oxford Group have five or six tenets ?

Many thanks, Carl P., Enfield UK

------------------------------------------------------

Carl,

The short answer is, neither five nor six, but many dozens of tenets.

It would be useful to look at some of our previous messages on this one to get
some of the details on this. See particularly messages 2274 (Robert Stonebraker
at rstonebraker212@insightbb.com ), 2286 (Arthur Sheehan at ArtSheehan@msn.com
), 2288 (Ernest Kurtz at kurtzern@umich.edu ), and 2295 ( Tom Hickcox at
cometkazie1@cox.net ). There is some really good AA history in these postings.

Let me try to give you a summary though. In the Foreword to the Second Edition
of the Big Book (page xvi in the third and fourth editions) we find the
following sentence, which Bill W. wrote in 1955, where he was trying to describe
what he came to believe back in 1934, some twenty-one years earlier.

"Though he [Bill Wilson] could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups,
he was convinced of the need for [1] moral inventory, [2] confession of
personality defects, [3] restitution to those harmed, [4] helpfulness to others,
and [5] the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."

Let us remember the full historical context here, when we are talking about the
end of 1934 and what Bill Wilson believed at that time.

In November 1934, Ebby and Bill had their talk in Bill's kitchen, and Bill says
that the "scales ... fell from my eyes" (see page 12 in the Big Book). The
reference here was to the Apostle Paul's conversion experience on the road to
Damascus, as described in the book of Acts in the New Testament (see Acts 9:18),
and this particular phrase would have been instantly recognized by any
Bible-reading Christian of that time as a reference to a person's fundamental
conversion experience. The saving message which produced this, which was Bill
W.'s first conversion experience (see page 12 of the Big Book), was "Why don't
you choose your own conception of God?" It put him back into contact with his
awareness of God-presence at Winchester Cathedral (Big Book pages 1 and 12).

So Bill's first conversion experience was therefore a re-establishment of his
awareness of the Holy (see Rudolf Otto, The Idea of the Holy, 1917, English
translation 1923, written by the German theologian who was regarded as one of
the two most important Protestant theologians of that era). It was a realization
that learning to become intuitively aware of the holy and sacred dimension of
reality at the feeling level was at the root of real God-consciousness. If you
could walk into a church and "feel" the presence of the holy, and then could
learn to feel that same intuitive sense of divine presence in other places too,
then you could learn how to practice God-consciousness on an everyday basis. God
became real only when we could learn to "feel" his presence -- a God who was
only an intellectual theory or an ecclesiastical dogma blindly believed in,
could not help an alcoholic stop drinking.

But then in December 1934, when Bill was in Towns Hospital, he had another even
more dramatic spiritual experience of an extraordinary sort. The majority of AA
members, however, never ever have a spiritual experience of that sort, and it is
not at all necessary to getting sober and obtaining deep serenity and
spirituality (see Appendix Two to the Big Book, on pages 569-570 of the third
edition). So it is the first conversion experience which we in AA ought
primarily to focus on in developing our own spirituality, not trying to obtain
visionary experiences like the one Bill W. had in Towns Hospital, and we are
also warned in Appendix Two that learning to fully feel the presence of the
sacred dimension of reality and God's presence with us, may only develop slowly
over a long period of time.

The reference however to the "sudden spiritual experience" in the Foreword to
the Second Edition (pages xi-xvi) sounds like Bill W. is referring to the later
one in Towns Hospital instead of the earlier one in his kitchen when he was
talking with Ebby.

However, Ebby was still important. Ebby was at this time deeply involved in the
Oxford Group (although there was also a connection, via Rowland Hazard, to
Courtenay Baylor and the Emmanuel Movement). So in the Foreword to the Second
Edition of the Big Book, Bill Wilson tries to summarize what he picked up from
the Oxford Group in his first contact with them, at the end of 1934. So this is
where the reference to Oxford Group "tenets" comes into the Foreword:

"Though he [Bill Wilson] could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups,
he was convinced of the need for [1] moral inventory, [2] confession of
personality defects, [3] restitution to those harmed, [4] helpfulness to others,
and [5] the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God."

By "the tenets of the Oxford Groups," Bill Wilson here simply meant all the many
different parts of the Oxford Group teachings. It was just a general reference
to everything the OG taught. Bill W. was not making a reference here to some
formal list of five or six or seven particular rules. That is, there was no list
of five or six particular Oxford Group rules that were called "The Tenets" and
were listed in the way in which the Hebrew Bible has Ten Commandments and A.A.
has Twelve Steps. There were dozens of Oxford Group beliefs.

So what Bill W. was saying was that the OG had all sorts of "tenets" or beliefs,
that is, all sorts of various teachings on all sorts of various topics, but that
he rejected many of these, even back in 1935, believing that they were not
useful or appropriate for him or other recovering alcoholics. This is important
to note -- Bill W. is insisting here in 1955 that he NEVER bought the ENTIRE
Oxford Group line, even back at the end of 1934. Alcoholics Anonymous historians
can and will argue about that one. But Bill W. was saying that he did find SOME
Oxford Group teachings useful for recovering alcoholics, and tosses off a quick
sample of five of the kinds of things which he and the AA movement had found to
be of continuing usefulness.

It is also important to note though that Bill W. did not actually say here that
these were the ONLY five Oxford Group teachings that he was following back at
the end of 1934, or that AA people were following in 1935, 36, and 37. In
context here, Bill W. was trying to give a very short list of only the most
important influences on him back at the end of 1934 when he was first getting
sober himself, which means that all he was really saying was that these were
five OG teachings that he thought were especially useful back at that time.

Anybody who knows the sorts of teachings and practices which were found in
Oxford Group circles c. 1934-1937 can point out many other things which Bill W.
and early AA were pulling from the OG back then, and many other OG teachings and
practices which are still being used in AA today.

Where some of the additional confusion occurs, is that there are also lists of
what we might call an early six step version of what would eventually become the
twelve steps. See for example page 292 in the 3rd edition (page 263 in the 4th
edition), where it says that in very early Akron A.A., "The six steps were:

1. Complete deflation.

2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power.

3. Moral inventory.

4. Confession.

5. Restitution.

6. Continued work with other alcoholics."

The first one, ego deflation, was primarily tied in with psychiatric principles
(see especially the writings of Dr. Harry M. Tiebout, one of AA's early friends)
and not the Oxford Group per se, and the sixth one is coming from Bill W.'s own
personal experience in the period right after he got sober at the end of 1934.
But AA people certainly first realized the importance of the other four steps on
this early list from their association with the Oxford Group when AA had just
begun.

Arthur Sheehan in Message 2286 gives a very thorough list of other early AA
versions of a sort of six-step program.

So the basic answer to your question, Carl, would be that the Oxford Group did
not have five tenets or six tenets, but dozens of different beliefs and
teachings. There was no formal list of five or six which they singled out in
particular which corresponded to Bill W.'s list of five items in the Foreword to
the Second Edition. There was also no "six step program" in the Oxford Group
itself. There was however a kind of informal statement of the AA program
sometimes given during the early period which broke it down into six steps
roughly. Some of these were connected with Oxford Group beliefs and practices,
and others were not.

However, when the Twelve Steps were finally written by Bill W., there were
obviously deep influences still coming from the period when AA had been part of
the Oxford Group. It is still valuable to go back and look at the Oxford Group
if we want to understand how to interpret some of the Twelve Steps. So Step
Eleven, for example, which tells us that we are to pray to God for "knowledge of
His will for us," derives from the Oxford Group's belief in divine guidance, and
so on.

Some of AA's spirituality (for example this belief in praying to receive divine
guidance) was fairly much common Protestant evangelical belief which showed up
in all sorts of evangelical groups during the early twentieth century, but even
in those cases, it was the Oxford Group where Bill W. and Dr. Bob were initially
introduced to them, or at least initially had the importance of these ideas
pounded into their heads!

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2347 johnpine@comcast.net
"The Independent Blonde" Dies in Pennsylvania at age 97 "The Independent Blonde" Dies in Pennsylvania at age 97 4/22/2005 9:36:00 AM

My former sponsor, based in southeastern Pennsylvania, informed me today that
Nancy Flynn, the "Independent Blonde" of the second edition of the Big Book,
passed away on April 16th in Kennett Square, Pennsylvania, at the age of 97. She
was 57 years sober.

Nancy, who was born in Philadelphia and got sober in New York City, was a
speaker at the International Conference in Minneapolis in 2000. She was so tiny
that she had to stand on a platform to reach the microphone but was so spirited
that she received thunderous applause and cheers of "More" from many in the
crowd at the Saturday night main meeting in the Metrodome.

Here is a link to the local newspaper obituary:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14371521&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id=1778\
6&rfi=6


In unity, love and service,

John Pine
Richmond, VA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2348 kadgen2001
Pre AA recovery Pre AA recovery 4/23/2005 7:45:00 AM

Does anyone have any ideas or information about Wilson's thoughts
regarding pre-AA recovery? And why, with the exception of the 1945
Washingtonian article, he left it unaddressed.

Thanks

0 -1 0 0
2349 Richard Foss
Our will and our lives Our will and our lives 4/24/2005 11:28:00 PM

In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives over.." Why is "will"
singular, and "lives" plural? This was the question at the "meeting after the
meeting," and this one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in
any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes in the various
editions and printings of the Big Book? Any ideas?

0 -1 0 0
2350 saturntad
Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital? Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital? 4/25/2005 11:08:00 AM

On page 56, second paragraph, Fitz Mayo was "approached by an
alcoholic who had known a spiritual experience." Who was this visitor?

Your help would be appreciated.

Sincerely, Tad

0 -1 0 0
2351 Mel Barger
Re: The dozens of Oxford Group tenets The dozens of Oxford Group tenets 4/25/2005 4:31:00 PM

Hi Glenn,
Have you taken into account the six steps Bill W. mentions on page 160 of
"Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age"? The Oxford Groups are listed as a partial
source for these.
It's also interesting that several "lists of six" are bouncing around in this
early history. Writing in The Atlantic Monthly of August 1934, the noted
theologian Henry P. Van Dusen listed six points to cover the Groups' work:
1. Men are sinners
2. Men can be changed.
3. Confession is prerequisite to change.
4. The changed soul has direct access to God.
5. The Age of Miracles has returned.
6. Those who have been changed must change others.
As for The Oxford Group having six specific tenets, Willard Hunter has always
said they didn't.
Mel Barger

IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE pp. 160-161 BILL WILSON WRITES:

"I was in this anything-but-spiritual mood on the night when the Twelve Steps of
Alcoholics Anonymous were written. I was sore and tired clear through. I lay in
bed at 182 Clinton Street with pencil in hand and with a tablet of scratch paper
on my knee. I could not get my mind on the job, much less put my heart in it.
But here was one of those things that had to be done. Slowly my mind came into
some kind of focus.
Since Ebby's visit to me in the fall of 1934 we had gradually evolved what we
called "the word-of-mouth program." Most of the basic ideas had come from the
Oxford Groups, William James, and Dr. Silkworth. Though subject to considerable
variation, it all boiled down into a pretty consistent procedure which comprised
six steps. These were approximately as follows:
1. We admitted that we were licked, that we were powerless over alcohol.
2. We made a moral inventory of our defects or sins.
3. We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence.
4. We made restitution to all those we had harmed by our drinking.
5. We tried to help other alcoholics, with no thought of reward in money or
prestige.
6. We prayed to whatever God we thought there was for power to practice these
precepts.
This was the substance of what, by the fall of 1938, we were telling newcomers.
Several of the Oxford Groups' other ideas and attitudes had been definitely
rejected, including any which could involve us in theological controversy. In
important matters there was still considerable disagreement between the Eastern
and the Midwestern viewpoints. Our people out there were still active Oxford
Group members, while we in New York had withdrawn a year before. In Akron and
vicinity they still talked about the Oxford Groups' absolutes: absolute honesty,
absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. This dose was found
to be too rich for New Yorkers, and we had abandoned the expressions."

0 -1 0 0
2352 Diz Titcher
Re: Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital? Who came to Fitz Mayo in the hospital? 4/28/2005 5:56:00 AM

QUESTION from "saturntad" <saturntad@aol.com>
On page 56, second paragraph, Fitz Mayo was "approached by an alcoholic who had
known a spiritual experience." Who was this visitor?

ANSWER from Diz Ticher (and also from Bill Lash):

Bill Wilson

0 -1 0 0
2353 Rob White
Re: Our will and our lives Our will and our lives 4/26/2005 8:42:00 AM

its english.
it doesn't make cents.
it just sounds better that weigh.

>>> richfoss@sprintmail.com 4/25/2005 12:28 AM >>>


In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives over.." Why is "will"
singular, and "lives" plural? This was the question at the "meeting after the
meeting," and this one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in
any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes in the various
editions and printings of the Big Book? Any ideas?







Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
2354 Alex H.
Re: Our will and our lives Our will and our lives 4/27/2005 1:04:00 AM

> In our Third Step it says "turn our will and our lives
> over.." Why is "will" singular, and "lives" plural? This
> was the question at the "meeting after the meeting," and this
> one question had us all stumped. Has this been discussed in
> any Conference actions or discussions of grammatical changes
> in the various editions and printings of the Big Book? Any
> ideas?

Yes.

Assuming that this is not a simple mistake in grammar.... I
suggest that "our will" might refer to our collective will.
While we might collectively act as a single person, we cannot
live as single person so we might say "We dedicate our
collective will and our individual lives to our Higher Power."

Good question.

Alex H.

0 -1 0 0
2355 Glenn Chesnut
"Checking" other people in the Oxford Group "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group 4/29/2005 3:24:00 PM

shaynamedel@yahoo.com wrote in asking about one aspect of the Oxford Group
practice of "checking" other members. In OG literature and practice, sometimes
that word was used to describe one OG member walking up to another OG member and
"taking the other person's inventory," as we would put it in AA terminology.

(In my understanding, the word "checking" could also be used to refer to another
element in their program, where it was part of the introduction of newcomers
into the program, done with the intention of producing "change" in the newcomer,
that is, a fundamental alteration of the person's basic attitude towards life,
where the person would become willing to make restitution for any wrongs done,
and take up a whole new way of life.)

The sense of the word that we are interested in here, however, is illustrated in
a story told by J. D. Holmes, the tenth person to get sober in A.A., who
eventually left Akron and started the first A.A. group in Indiana. I am quoting
here from "How A.A. Came to Indiana," see http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html ,
which in turn is quoting from Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers (New York:
Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 1980), p. 140.

<<When the alcoholics in Akron were still meeting with the Oxford Group, J. D.
said that there was one woman who "used to get on my nerves with her constant
chatter. One day, I called her into T. Henry's study and said, 'I don't like you
for some reason or other.'" (In the Oxford Group, you were supposed to "check"
people like that, as they called it.)

"'You interrupt and talk too much. I'm getting a lot of resentment here, and I
don't like it, and I'm afraid I'll get drunk over it.'

"She laughed and said something. Then we sat down and had a very pleasant visit.
And I lost all resentment.">>

With a group of alcoholics, as opposed to polite, well-behaved normal OG
members, this sort of thing would obviously start wild, angry shouting matches
on many occasions, and maybe even worse. So in the A.A. program, this practice
of criticizing other people's behavior to their face in this kind of way was
eventually called "taking someone else's inventory," and strongly discouraged.

The question which shaynamedel@yahoo.com raises is, can anyone tell us when
checking other people like this first began to be rejected as an A.A. practice?
And can anyone tell us if there are places in the early A.A. literature talking
about the break with the OG and discussing this particular issue?

Also, it would be useful if some of our real OG experts could tell us more about
"checking" in the Oxford Group, including the way it was practiced on newcomers
when they first came in, in order to produce people who had been "changed."

Moderator









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2356 Julie
13th stepping 13th stepping 4/25/2005 5:01:00 PM

Where did the term "13th stepping" come from? When did AA people first start
using this phrase to refer to men AA members hitting on new women in the program
(and vice versa), pretending that they were going to "help" the newcomer
understand the program?

0 -1 0 0
2357 Carl P.
The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story 4/26/2005 8:50:00 PM

Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who committed
suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?

Mnay Thanks
Carl P
Enfield UK

0 -1 0 0
2358 erstwhile_erratic_aa
ICYPAA archives ICYPAA archives 4/29/2005 7:10:00 AM

I was recently elected as the archivist for ICYPAA (International
Conference of Young People in AA). I am hoping to make contact with
some people that have been involved in past years. The 50th ICYPAA is
two years away and I'd like to put together a presentation of archives
for that convention. Interviewing any of the people intimately
involved would be deeply appreciated. I was hopeful some of you
history buffs could help me.

You can email me directly or from www.icypaa.org

Thanks in advance,

Tom Hoban
ICYPAA archivist

0 -1 0 0
2359 lester gother
Re: The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story 4/29/2005 5:26:00 PM

Hi Carl, The man in Bill's story is Bill C. a Canadian attorney. Bill and Lois
were away at Fitz Mayo's in Maryland. It's reported that Bill put his head in
the oven. Seems that it was quite a bitter end!

Love and Service
Lester Gother

------------------------------

"Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net>

His name was Bill C. and the year was 1936. Bill and Lois were off to
Vermont for a visit and Bill C. was house sitting. He hocked all of their
clothing for booze and when the booze was gone he stuck his head in an oven,
turned on the gas.

Diz T.

------------------------------
Original Message From Carl P., Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:50 PM

Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who committed
suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?

Many Thanks, Carl P,Enfield UK











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0 -1 0 0
2360 ArtSheehan
RE: The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story The man who committed suicide in Bill''s story 4/30/2005 8:56:00 AM

Hi Carl
SOURCE REFERENCES:
AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS
AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS
AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft
cover)
BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)
BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)
EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)
GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft
cover)
GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)
LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
PIO - Pass It On, AAWS
When Bill W returned from Akron, OH in August 1935 he began holding
meetings at his house at 182 Clinton St on Tuesday nights. His home
also became a halfway house, of sorts, for drunks. Ebby T moved in
that November (AACOA 74, BW-RT 225, PIO 160-162, GTBT 96, GB 51, AGAA
145).
The suicide occurred two years later in October 1937. The prior April,
Ebby T got drunk after two years and seven months sobriety. (LR 197,
EBBY 77, BW-FH 63, PIO 177) In august, Bill and Lois stopped attending
Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs separated from the OG. (LR 197,
AACOA vii, 74-76)
Alcoholic residents at 182 Clinton St were Ebby T, Oscar V, Russell R,
Bill C and Florence R (whose Big Book story is A Feminine Victory). In
October 1937, Bill C, a young Canadian (and former attorney who sold
Bill W’s and Lois’ clothes to get liquor) committed suicide in the
house while Bill and Lois were away visiting Fitz M (PIO 165 says
summer of 1936). Florence R, the first woman at Clinton St, later went
to Washington, DC to help Fitz M. She started drinking again in 1939
and later died destitute in 1941. (AACOA 19, AABB 16, BW-RT 237-239,
LR 107)
Cheers
Arthur
_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl P.
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:51 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The man who committed suicide in Bill's
story

Does anybody have any infomation on the man in Bill's story who
committed suicide while he was staying with Bill and Lois?

Mnay Thanks
Carl P
Enfield UK











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0 -1 0 0
2361 ArtSheehan
"Checking" other people in the Oxford Group "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group 4/30/2005 12:06:00 PM

To add to Glenn’s commentary, one of the key OG practices was to
“check guidance.” From what I’ve been able to glean from various
readings, the most noble and spiritual context of “check guidance”
would be equivalent to AA’s 11th Step - that is to seek the knowledge
of God’s will in every aspect of life.
It might also include more than one person in the process and occur in
OG meetings. Henrietta Sieberling reputedly used this approach on Dr
Bob to get him to start admitting his alcohol problem. In the
illustration cited by Glenn, it could also involve the principles of
taking a moral inventory and honestly discussing it with someone else
(Steps 4 thru 10). While some may brand the example as “taking someone
else’s inventory” it really doesn’t depart that much from the type of
discussion that goes on between a member and his/her sponsor or
trusted AA friend.
The following is a rather lengthy timeline to highlight the influence
of the Oxford Group on the founding and practices of AA. The size of
this message will probably result in it being truncated in the AAHL
on-line archives, but the email version should arrive intact. Source
references are noted at the end of the message.
Timeline
1908 - Jul, Frank N D Buchman arrived in England to attend the Keswick
Convention of evangelicals. After hearing a sermon by a woman
evangelist, Jessie Penn-Lewis, he experienced a profound spiritual
surrender and later helped another attendee to go through the same
experience. His experiences became the key to the rest of his life’s
work. Returning to the US, he started his “laboratory years” working
out the principles he would later apply on a global scale. (NG 9, NW
32-45, PIO 130)
1918 - Jan, Frank Buchman met Sam Shoemaker in Peking (now Beijing)
China. Shoemaker had a spiritual conversion experience and became a
devoted member of Buchman’s First Century Christian Fellowship. (NW
29, 47-52, RAA 117-118, AGAA 209)
1921 - Frank Buchman was invited to visit Cambridge, England. His
movement The First Century Christian Fellowship would later become the
Oxford Group and receive wide publicity during the 1920’s and 1930’s.
Core principles consisted of the “four absolutes” (of honesty,
unselfishness, purity and love - believed to be derived from scripture
in the Sermon on the Mount). Additionally the OG advocated the “five
C’s” (confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and continuance)
and “five procedures” (1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God’s
direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution and 5. Sharing - for
witness and confession). (DBGO 53-55, CH 3) (GB 45 states Buchman
dated the founding and name of the OG when he met with undergraduates
from Christ Church College of Oxford U).
1922 - Frank Buchman resigned his job at the Hartford Theological
Seminary to pursue a wider calling. Over the next few years, he worked
mostly in universities (Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge). During the
economic depression, students (particularly in Oxford) responded to
his approach and were ordained ministers. Others gave all their time
to working with him. (www)
1928 - Summer (?), a group of Rhodes Scholars returned home to S.
Africa, from Oxford U, England to tell how their lives changed through
meeting Frank Buchman. A railway employee labeled their train
compartment The Oxford Group. The press took it up and the name stuck
(the name First Century Christian Fellowship faded). (RAA 120, www)
1931 - Dec, Russell (Bud) Firestone (alcoholic son of Akron, OH
business magnate Harvey Firestone Sr.) was introduced to Sam Shoemaker
by James Newton on a train returning from an Episcopal conference in
Denver, CO. Newton was a prominent Oxford Group member and an
executive at Firestone. Bud, who was drinking a fifth or more of
whiskey a day, spiritually surrendered with Shoemaker and was released
from his alcohol obsession. Bud joined the OG and became an active
member (but later returned to drinking). (NW 15, 65, AGAA 8-9, 32-36)
1932 - Rowland H found sobriety through the spiritual practices of the
Oxford Group (it is not clear whether this occurred in Europe or the
US - and it could have occurred in 1931). Rowland was a dedicated OG
member in NY, VT and upper MA and a prominent member of the Calvary
Episcopal Church in NYC. He later moved to Shaftsbury, VT. (NW 10-19,
NG 8-9, PIO 113-114, AGAA 28, 141-144, LOH 277-278, www)
1933
Jan, Harvey Firestone Sr. (grateful for help given his son Bud)
sponsored an Oxford Group conference weekend (DBGO says 10-day house
party) headquartered at the Mayflower Hotel in Akron, OH. Frank
Buchman and 30 members (DBGO says 60) of his team were met at the
train station by the Firestones and Rev Walter Tunks (Firestone’s
minister and rector of St Paul’s Episcopal Church). The event included
300 overseas members of the OG and received widespread news coverage.
The event attracted Henrietta Sieberling, T Henry and Clarace Williams
and Anne Smith. (NW 65-67, CH 2, DBGO 55, AGAA 9, 37-51, 71)
Early, Anne Smith attended meetings of the Oxford Group with her
friend Henrietta Sieberling (whose marriage to J Frederick Sieberling
was crumbling). Anne later persuaded Dr Bob to attend. The meetings
were held on Thursday nights at the West Hill group. (NW 67-68, SI 32,
34, DBGO 53-60, CH 2-3, 28-29) Beer had become legal and Dr Bob
previously went through a beer-drinking phase (“the beer experiment”).
It was not long before he was drinking a case and a half a day
fortifying the beer with straight alcohol. In his Big Book story, Bob
says that this was around the time when he was introduced to the OG.
He participated in the OG for 2 ½ years before meeting Bill. (DBGO 42,
AABB 177-178, NW 62)
1934
Jul, Ebby T was approached in Manchester, VT by his friends Cebra
Graves ~ (an attorney) and F Sheppard (Shep) Cornell ~ (a NY
stockbroker). Both were Oxford Group members who had done considerable
drinking with Ebby and were abstaining from drinking. They informed
Ebby of the OG in VT but he was not quite ready yet to stop drinking.
(EBBY 51-55, PIO 113)
Aug, Cebra G and Shep C vacationed at Rowland H’s house in Bennington,
VT. Cebra learned that Ebby T was about to be committed to Brattleboro
Asylum. Cebra, Shep and Rowland decided to make Ebby “a project.” (NG
309) Rowland H and Cebra G persuaded a VT court judge (Cebra's father
Collins) to parole Ebby T into their custody. Ebby had first met
Rowland only shortly before. In the fall, Rowland took Ebby to NYC
where he sobered up with the help of the Oxford Group at the Calvary
Mission. (RAA 151, AACOA vii, NW 20-21, 26, EBBY 52-59, NG 9-10, PIO
115, AGAA 155-156)
Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the Calvary Mission and working
with the Oxford Group, heard about Bill W’s problems with drinking. He
phoned Lois who invited him over for dinner. (EBBY 66) Ebby visited
Bill W at 182 Clinton St and shared his recovery experience "one
alcoholic talking to another.” (AACOA vii, 58-59) A few days later,
Ebby returned with Shep C. They spoke to Bill about the Oxford Group.
Bill did not think too highly of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited
several times, once even staying for dinner. (AACOA vii, NG 17-18,
311, BW-FH 57-58, NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192)
Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the Calvary Mission on 23rd St.
He showed up drunk with a drinking companion found along the way (Alec
the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the service wanting to speak. On the
verge of being ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate of beans.
Bill later joined the penitents and drunkenly “testified” at the
meeting. (AACOA 59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60, NW 23, PIO
116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156-159, EBBY 66-69)
Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had
his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got
financial help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA
61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31).
Dec 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the
Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep
depression (his “deflation at depth”) and had a profound spiritual
experience after crying out “If there be a God, will he show himself.”
Dr Silkworth later assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang
on to what he had found. In a lighter vein, Bill and others would
later refer to this as his “white flash” or “hot flash” experience.
(AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148, NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO
120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)
Dec 15, Ebby brought Bill W a copy of William James' book The
Varieties of Religious Experience. Bill was deeply inspired by the
book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity or
complete defeat in some vital area of life (hitting bottom), 2)
admission of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a higher power for
help (acceptance). The book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited
in the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152,
NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28)
Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He
and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at
Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary
Church (the OG’s US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park
Ave) and 21st St. Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held)
was at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St.
(AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB
32-33, AGAA 144)
Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG
alcoholics met at Stewart’s Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission.
Attendees included Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA
141-142, NG 314)
1935
Early, Bill W worked with alcoholics at the Calvary Mission and Towns
Hospital, emphasizing his "hot flash" spiritual experience. Alcoholic
Oxford Group members began meeting at his home on Clinton St. Bill had
no success sobering up others. (AACOA vii, AABB, BW-FH 69, PIO
131-133)
Mar/Apr, Henrietta Sieberling (nicknamed “Henri”) encouraged by her
friend Delphine Weber, organized a Wednesday-night Oxford Group
meeting at T Henry and Clarace Williams’ house on 676 Palisades Dr.
The meeting was started specifically to help Dr Bob who later
confessed openly about his drinking problem. OG meetings continued at
the William’s house until 1954. (DBGO 56-59, AGAA 103 says May)
Apr, Bill W had a talk with Dr Silkworth who advised him to stop
preaching about his “hot flash” and hit the alcoholics hard with the
medical view. Silkworth advised Bill to break down the strong egos of
alcoholics by telling them about the obsession that condemned them to
drink and allergy that condemned them to go mad or die. It would then
be easier to get them to accept the spiritual solution. (AACOA 13,
67-68, BW-RT 211, NG 25-26, PIO 133) Bill W returned to Wall St and
was introduced to Howard Tompkins of the firm Baer and Co. Tompkins
was involved in a proxy fight to take over control of the National
Rubber Machinery Co. based in Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211, NG 26, BW-FH 74,
PIO 133-134, GB 33)
May, Bill W went to Akron but the proxy fight was quickly lost. He
remained behind at the Mayflower Hotel very discouraged. (BW-RT 212,
PIO 134-135)
May 11, (AGAA says May 10) Bill W, in poor spirits, and tempted to
enter the Mayflower Hotel bar, realized he needed another alcoholic.
He telephoned members of the clergy listed on the lobby directory. He
reached the Rev Walter Tunks who referred him to Norman Sheppard who
then referred him to Henrietta Sieberling (47 years old and an Oxford
Group adherent). Bill introduced himself as “a member of the OG and a
rum hound from NY.” Henrietta met with Bill at her gatehouse (Stan
Hywet Hall) on the Sieberling estate. She arranged a dinner meeting
the next day with Dr Bob and Anne. (AACOA 65-67, SI 21, BW-RT 212-213,
DBGO 60, 63-67, NG 26-28, PIO 134-138, GB 19) Note: some stories
(AACOA 67) say that when Henrietta called Anne, Dr Bob was passed out
under the kitchen table. He was upstairs in bed (re Dr. Bob’s
Nightmare 179, 4th Ed).
May 12, Mother’s Day (AGAA says Mother’s Day was May 11) Bill W (age
39) met Dr Bob (age 55) Anne and their young son Bob (age 17) at
Henrietta Sieberling’s gatehouse at 5PM. Dr Bob, too hung over to eat
dinner, planned to stay only 15 minutes. Privately, in the library,
Bill told Bob of his alcoholism experience in the manner suggested by
Dr Silkworth. Bob opened up and he and Bill talked until after 11PM.
(AACOA vii, 67-70, BW-RT 214-215, DBGO 66-69, NG 28-32, BW-FH 4, GB
21)
May, Bill W wrote a letter to Lois saying that he and Dr Bob tried in
vain to sober up a Dr McKay, ~ a “once prominent surgeon” who
developed into a “terrific rake and drunk” (BW-40 Appendix C).
Henrietta Sieberling arranged for Bill to stay at the Portage Country
Club. (DBGO 70, 77)
Jun, Bill W moved to Dr Bob’s house at the request of Anne Smith. Bill
insisted on keeping two bottles of liquor in the kitchen to prove that
he and Bob could live in the presence of liquor. Both worked with
alcoholics and went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at
the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to
the proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73,
DBGO 70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture
readings at meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians
Chapter 13 and the Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96
says that meetings were held at Dr Bob’s house and moved to the
Williams’ house in late 1936 or early 1937)
1936
Bill W's efforts in working only with alcoholics were criticized by NY
Oxford Group members. Similarly, in Akron, T Henry and Clarace
Williams were criticized as well by OG members who were not supportive
of their efforts being extended primarily to alcoholics. (NG 44-45, NW
73, AGAA 76)
Jun, the Oxford Group was at the height of its popularity. 10,000
people (GB 46 says 5,000) flocked to the Berkshires for a meeting at
Stockbridge, MA. (PIO 170) An OG “house-party” (a cross between a
convention and a retreat) in Birmingham, England drew 15,000. (GB 46,
AAGA 173)
Aug 26, Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group experienced an
international public relations disaster. A NY World Telegram article
by William H Birnie, quoted Buchman as saying, “I thank heaven for a
man like Adolph Hitler, who built a front-line of defense against the
anti-Christ of Communism.” Although the remark was taken out of
context in its reporting, it would plague Buchman’s reputation for
many years. It marked the beginning of the decline of the OG. (NW 30,
96, DBGO 155, BW-FH 96, PIO 170-171, GB 53, AGAA 161)
1937
Early, Bill W and Lois attended a major Oxford Group house party at
the Hotel Thayer in West Point, NY. For the previous 2 ½ years they
had been attending two OG meetings a week. (NW 89)
Late spring, leaders of the Oxford Group at the Calvary Mission
ordered alcoholics staying there not to attend meetings at Clinton St.
Bill W and Lois were criticized by OG members for having “drunks only”
meetings at their home. The Wilson’s were described as “not maximum”
(an OG term for those believed to be lagging in their devotion to OG
principles). (EBBY 75, LR 103, BW-RT 231, NG 45, NW 89-91)
Aug, Bill and Lois stopped attending Oxford Group meetings. The NY AAs
separated from the OG. (LR 197, AACOA vii, 74-76)
1938 - Nations of the world armed for World War II and Frank Buchman
called for a “moral and spiritual re-armament” to address the root
causes of the conflict. He renamed the Oxford Group to Moral
Re-Armament. (www, NW 44)
1939
May 10, Led by pioneer member Clarence Snyder ~ (Home Brewmeister) the
Cleveland, OH group met separately from Akron and the Oxford Group at
the home of Albert (Abby) Goldrick ~ (He Thought He Could Drink Like a
Gentleman). This was the first group to call itself Alcoholics
Anonymous. The Clevelanders still sent their most difficult cases to
Dr Bob in Akron for treatment. (AACOA 19-21, NW 94, SI 35, DBGO
161-168, NG 78-79, PIO 224, AGAA 4, 201, 242).
Oct (late), (AACOA viii says summer) Akron members of the “alcoholic
squad” withdrew from the Oxford Group and held meetings at Dr Bob’s
house. It was a painful separation due to the great affection the
alcoholic members had toward T Henry and Clarace Williams. (NW 93-94,
SI 35, DBGO 212-219, NG 81, GTBT 123, AGAA 8-10, 188, 243)
1941 - Nov, Dr Sam Shoemaker left the Oxford Group (then called Moral
Re-Armament) and formed a fellowship named Faith at Work. MRA was
asked to completely vacate the premises at Calvary House. Shoemaker’s
dispute with Buchman was amplified in the press. (EBBY 75-76, AAGA
161, 244)
1949 - Jul 14, in a letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker, Bill W wrote “So
far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA.
It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning.” (AGAA 137)
1961 - Frank N D Buchman died. Moral Re-Armament had declined
significantly in numbers and influence and became headquartered in
Caux, Switzerland. (NW 45, 97-98) In 2001, MRA changed its name to
Initiatives of Change. A month after Buchman’s death Bill W wrote to a
friend regretting that he did not write to Buchman acknowledging his
contributions to the AA movement. (www, PIO 386-387)
SOURCE REFERENCES:
AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS
AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS
AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B (soft
cover)
BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thompson (soft cover)
BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan (hard cover)
BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography (hard cover)
CH - Children of the Healer, Bob Smith and Sue Smith Windows by
Christine Brewer (soft cover)
DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers, AAWS
EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B (soft cover)
GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson (soft
cover)
GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing (soft cover)
LOH - The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc
LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz (expanded edition, soft cover)
NW - New Wine, by Mel B (soft cover)
PIO - Pass It On, AAWS
RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman, nee AA the
Way It Began (soft cover)
SI - Sister Ignatia, by Mary C Darrah (soft cover)
www - Internet Sources (e.g. Google, Microsoft Encarta, etc.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
2362 ny-aa@att.net
Re: "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group 4/29/2005 10:56:00 PM

Checking in the Oxford Groups was not necessarily intrusive
or confrontational. In morning Quiet Time, there would be a
period in which members would write "luminous thoughts" they
received into their Guidance Books. This was at a level
of inspiration that was almost automatic writing. When a
member then read what he had written, it might apply to
some situation he was dealing with or it might not mean
anything to him until later that day.

If a number of OG members were in Quiet Time together, it
was common practice to share what Guidance had been written.
Others might help to Check the interpretation. Sometimes,
what one member had written might match the Guidance that
another had received that same day. This was taken as
further evidence that it was Guidance from God.

Some of this brought criticism to the Oxford Groups that
automatic writing was an occult, not a Christian, practice.

0 -1 0 0
2363 erstwhile_erratic_aa
Origins of 4th step column format Origins of 4th step column format 4/30/2005 8:27:00 AM

I am wondering if anyone out there knows where Bill got the 4th step
format as found in the Big Book? It is clear self-apprasial,
restitution, etc. come from common spiritual practice. But did Bill
get the column format from an early psychologist or the like? The
4th step prayer (the so-called 3 1/2th column) and the looking at our part(the
infamous 4th column), the things he asks us to focus on: self-
esteem, security, ambitions, personal and sex relations. That
troublesome little word fear, etc. Thank you in advance.

Tom Hoban
Marietta, GA.

0 -1 0 0
2364 erstwhile_erratic_aa
3rd legacy voting procedure origins 3rd legacy voting procedure origins 4/30/2005 8:29:00 AM

In a similiar request to the 4th step origins I asked. What about the
3rd legacy voting procedure. It is unique to AA but the recent voting
at the Vatican seems very similiar. Any ideas where Bill got this
format for voting?

Tom Hoban
Marietta, GA.

0 -1 0 0
2365 ny-aa@att.net
WayBack Machine Internet Archive WayBack Machine Internet Archive 4/30/2005 8:22:00 PM

AA's presence on the internet is part of AA history.
Much of that history has been archived and is available
on-line. You can get to it through the WayBack Archive:

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

When that page comes up, enter a URL that interests you.
There is a good chance that versions of that web page
will be available going back a number of years. If the
exact page you want did not exist in the past, you may
have to start with the root URL and work from there.

Here is an example of the history of http://aa.org/
It was also available as http://alcoholics-anonymous.org/
so try it both ways. Both go back to 1996 but they are
slightly different:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://aa.org/
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://alcoholics-anonymous.org/

Some of the images may not be available in the WayBack
Archive but you get a good idea of what was on a page.
I believe I've seen cases where a missing image became
available a day later. If you don't get any response,
try again when the server is less busy.

There is even a link that you can drag to your browser's
toolbar to perform WayBack lookup on what you are seeing
at the moment.

0 -1 0 0
2366 gvnurse2001
Bill W Quote Bill W Quote 4/30/2005 10:33:00 PM

There is a quote attributed to Bill W, where (talking about
Television) he says something about "The future of AA depends on how
we use this new technology." It was widely circulated in Online AA.
Can anyone give me the exact wording of the quote and tell me where it
originated?
Thanks,
Sharon H in California

0 -1 0 0
2367 Danny S
Bill W.''s Golf Game Bill W.''s Golf Game 4/30/2005 11:10:00 PM

We all know that Bill Wilson never did manage to "overtake" Walter
Hagen, the flamboyant golf champion. Bill's golf playing is mentioned
in several books, including the Big Book.

But, does anyone know of any mention, anywhere, that would give even a
hint of just what kind of game Bill played?

I like substantiated facts regarding our history, but I'd settle for
hearsay on this one.

How good a golfer was he in fact?

Peace,

Danny S

0 -1 0 0
2368 jimmy
Re: List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism List of movies on A.A. and alcoholism 5/1/2005 12:30:00 AM

In addition to these movies, there was a made for tv film (like
hallmark hall of fame, but it was ABC Afterschool Special), entitled
"Sarah T: Portrait of a Teenage Alcoholic."

I know a number of teenagers in AA, who actually refer to that film as
instrumental in carrying the message to them.

Jimmy Moss, Burbank, CA USA

0 -1 0 0
2369 Jim Blair
Re: "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group "Checking" other people in the Oxford Group