tblYgr_AAHistoryLovers
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3002 JNP in Maine
Re: Length of sobriety & James H. Length of sobriety & James H. 12/27/2005 8:14:00 AM


I met James H. in 1997 at the Wilson House in Vermont. I am almost positive he

had said that he was not a member of AA and never had been. Does anyone have

any info re this statement by him.



Thanks



Joe Petrocelli

<jopet34@yahoo.com>

(jopet34 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
3003 chesbayman56
Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 12/31/2005 1:46:00 PM


Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking.

Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.

Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of

"Alcoholics Anonymous".

Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression.

Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA.

Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan

Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob.

Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety".

Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus,

Ohio Central Group.

Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland.

Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded.

Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan.

Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get

away from the Oxford Group atmosphere".

Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years

sober.

Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to

Alcoholics Anonymous, died.

Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group.

Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School,

Akron, Ohio.

Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years

dies.

Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician

Heal Thyself" died.

Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC.

Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri.

Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto.

Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started

in Oct 24 1943.

Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in

his sleep.

Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in

Pennington, New Jersey.

Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.

Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church

in Brookyn Heights.

Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis

Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL.

Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley.

Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1.

Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus

Contra Spiritum".

End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated

for comment, evaluation and sale.


0 -1 0 0
3004 ny-aa@att.net
Long-Term Success Higher in 2004 Survey Long-Term Success Higher in 2004 Survey 1/1/2006 12:02:00 AM


How long have members of A.A. been sober? That is one of the

questions in the triennial survey among randomly selected groups

in the U.S. and Canada every three years. Surveys are all done

during a one to two week period. Everyone who is at a particular

meeting of each of those groups is asked to participate.



LENGTH OF SOBRIETY IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

Survey

Year ... <1 ..... 1-5 .... >5 ...... Average

**77 ... 37.3% .. 38.0% .. 24.7% ... 4 years

**80 ... 36.4% .. 37.2% .. 26.4% ... 4 years

**83 ... 37.7% .. 36.9% .. 24.9% ... 4 years

**86 ... 32.8% .. 38.4% .. 29.0% ... 4+ years

1989 ... 34% .... 37% .... 29% ..... 4+ years

1992 ... 31% .... 34% .... 35% ..... 5+ years

1996 ... 27% .... 28% .... 45% ..... 6+ years

1998 ... 27% .... 26% .... 47% ..... 7+ years

2001 ... 30% .... 22% .... 48% ..... 7+ years

2004 ... 26% .... 24% .... 50% ..... 8+ years



As of the 2004 Survey, long-term sobriety was so prevalent that

"Greater Than Five Years" was broken into two parts as follows:

5-10 Years = 14%

>10 Years = 36%

------------------ adding

>5 Years = 50%



For those unfamiliar with Alcoholics Anonymous, sobriety in A.A.

means continuous and complete abstinance from alcohol in any form.

This table represents only those who are sober and still attending

meetings. Someone who got sober in A.A. and who is staying sober

by some other means would not appear in the survey.



NOTE: Entries with dates beginning ** here are from a summary.

Those with complete years are from copies of published pamphlets:

"(P-48) Alcoholics Anonymous YYYY Membership Survey"

___________________

En2joy! Tom En2ger


0 -1 0 0
3005 hoojgs
Definitions of the "real alcoholic" (re 3 and 5-year survival rates) Definitions of the "real alcoholic" (re 3 and 5-year survival rates) 12/27/2005 10:47:00 AM


My comments below do not address the question of the statistical

accuracy of the survival rate study but relate to the history of the

debate over who is a "real alcoholic."



I wonder if anyone has seen the actual long list of membership requirements that

Bill collected in the days before the adoption of the third tradition.



Thanks in advance,

Jim


0 -1 0 0
3006 Diz Titcher
James H. and length of sobriety James H. and length of sobriety 12/27/2005 6:31:00 AM


Hi Gary,



James Houck was never a member of AA. He is the last original Oxford Grouper and

puts on those workshop with a friend of his who was in AA. I do not know whether

the friend is alive or not.



Diz T.

Tallahassee


0 -1 0 0
3007 Des Green
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 12/27/2005 4:30:00 AM


(With a comment by Glenn C. at the end)



Hi,



With respect to what Fiona D. said in Message 2992

(http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2992).



Constant references to the REAL alcoholic sometimes confuses me. If a person

takes a drink and cannot control their intake is that not a real alcoholic ?



If this allergy, or whatever it is has progressed to the point that alcohol is

dominating ones every waking thought and the consumption of it is the most

important thing is that not a real alcoholic?



The suggestion sometimes seems to be that no alcoholic can recover unless they

are in AA and attend meetings <not so> .



So what is it you are saying here ?



1. There are people who are pretending to be alcoholic?



2. Some people are more alcoholic than others?



I'm fairly new to all this, 21 months sober.



And please don't think I am having a go at you personally, I'm not. I'm simply

picking up your thread to obtain an answer, not necessarily from you. This is

another thing that does my head in .... having to be so careful about the

sensitivities of others when nothing insensitive is intended.



Best wishes, Des



It really is great to be sober and in such a fantastic fellowship Good Luck!



______________________________



Des,



Let me try my hand at answering your question.



It was common in early AA to distinguish between three different kinds of

drinkers. Let's call them Types 1, 2, and 3 for the purposes of this discussion.

Sometimes they were called (Type 1) "social drinkers," (Type 2) "heavy

drinkers," and (Type 3) "alcoholics." Richmond Walker, in Twenty Four Hours a

Day (1948), referred to the last category as "merry go round drinkers."



Mrs. Marty Mann makes this same kind of distinction in the book she wrote for

the National Council on Alcoholism. Our South Bend good old timer, Brownie,

makes that three-fold distinction in the material about him in The St. Louis

Gambler & the Railroad Man. Dr. Jellinek (and many others) tried to make

distinctions of this same sort during the 1940's and 1950's.



It had been noted that some alcoholics were clearly drinking alcoholically from

the time they took their very first drink. The first time they had a chance at

a bottle (even if they were just teenagers), they drank themselves rip roaring

drunk, and they just kept on drinking that way from that point on.



But other alcoholics started out as social drinkers, and then gradually began

drinking more and more, until finally after enough years they crossed some

invisible line, and became clearly and unambiguously alcoholic drinkers.



Psychologists who study alcoholism and public health agencies which are

concerned with alcoholism have found that they also have to make some kind of

distinction between people who are drinking a lot, and people who are

alcoholics. You cannot measure the amount of alcohol that is consumed and use

that to determine who is a heavy drinker and who is an alcoholic.



All sorts of fancy definitions have been dreamed up by psychologists, medical

doctors, and so on, to try to identify where you make the division between Type

Two heavy drinkers (or "alcohol abusers" or whatever term you're using) and Type

Three genuine alcoholics.



Let us not get into quarrels about what precise terminology to use here, because

there have been a variety of different terms used over the years.



But as far as I can see, the basic distinction historically has been a simple

one. A Type Two heavy drinker (or alcohol abuser, or whatever) who is given

sufficient reason to stop drinking, will be able to stop on his own simply by

using will power. Maybe his doctor puts him on a heart medication and tells him

that he has to take the medication to save his life, and that this medication

cannot be mixed with alcohol in the system. Or something in his life puts him

in a situation where he will get in enormous trouble if he does not quit. So he

simply grits his teeth, and stops drinking. Just like that. Permanently.



A Type Three true alcoholic will find that he cannot stop drinking on his own,

by his own will power, no matter how serious the consequences are going to be.

His wife says that she will leave him, his employer says that he will fire him,

the judge says that he will give him twenty years in prison the next time he

drives drunk, his doctor says that he will be dead within a year if he keeps on

drinking. But no matter what it is, a true alcoholic will STILL keep drinking,

in spite of all that, if he is trying to do it by himself by his own willpower.

If you listen to tape recordings of the good old timers, you will find numerous

examples of alcoholics whose drinking was destroying them totally, who still

could not stop on their own, simply by using will power.



One thing which muddies the waters nowadays, is that (beginning with Dr.

Jellinek's famous chart back in the 1940's) the experts on alcoholism have

assembled data on the way that the disease of alcoholism progresses, where they

can spot the symptoms of Type Three chronic alcoholism much earlier than they

could in the 1930's and 1940's. So nowadays we can sometimes identify a person

as definitely a chronic alcoholic early in the progression of the disease, and

send that person off to AA, and save that person an awful lot of misery and

heartbreak, EVEN THOUGH in early AA they would not have allowed that person to

attend AA meetings because they would have felt that this person's drinking did

not qualify him or her to be a "true alcoholic" yet.



So is this particular individual a Type Two heavy drinker who is getting himself

or herself in trouble, and maybe needs some encouragement to quit doing that

from a psychotherapist or someone like that?



Or is this particular individual a Type Three alcoholic EARLY in the progression

of the disease, who hasn't gotten himself or herself in major trouble yet, but

who nevertheless is going to need AA in order to quit? In current AA jargon, we

would sometimes call this kind of person a "high bottom" drunk.



So what Fiona was asking was, were the people in that statistical table who went

to AA meetings for a year and then quit going to meetings but were still sober

even five years later, actually Type Three alcoholics? Or were they Type Two

heavy drinkers who got sober in AA meetings, but actually would have been able

to get sober all on their own anyway, just by using their own willpower?



In other words, were they Type Two heavy drinkers who had been misdiagnosed as

early stage Type Three alcoholics?



The issue at stake is, is it EVER safe for a Type Three genuine alcoholic to

quit going to meetings? If they quit going to meetings, will Type Three

alcoholics ALWAYS inevitably go back to their alcoholic drinking sooner or

later? The good old timers in my part of Indiana say (on the basis of their

many years of experience) that Type Three genuine alcoholics will ALWAYS go back

to drinking eventually if they quit going to AA meetings, with the one exception

that a few do manage to use church going as a substitute for AA meetings, and

can stay sober that way.



Fiona's question is not some nit picking question about numbers and statistics,

but a word of warning about something which could cost alcoholics their lives if

they make the wrong decision. Fiona is warning all of us (based in her case of

her knowledge of Irish alcoholics): do NOT assume on the basis of those 3 and 5

year survival rate statistics which were recently posted that you will have some

hope of staying sober if you quit going to AA meetings.



Given the fact that Fiona's Irish alcoholics and my own Hoosier alcoholics here

in Indiana seem to suffer the same fate if they quit going to AA meetings, I

would advise anyone reading these AAHL postings to take Fiona's warning with

deadly seriousness. Her warning is simple: don't use those 3 and 5 year

survival statistics to play games with your life, if you are a true alcoholic.



I would add an additional warning to hers. Alcoholism is cunning, baffling, and

powerful. Also patient, sneaky, and lying. Many a true alcoholic here in my

part of Indiana has gone to AA meetings and stayed sober for a long time (maybe

even ten years of more) until the voice of Mr. Alcoholism inside that person's

head has started murmuring, "You know, I haven't had any trouble staying off the

booze these past ten years, and you know, I'm not really like some of these

other people in the AA meetings. I'm more intelligent than they are, have more

will power and self control. I never fell as low as they fell. Maybe I'm not

really an alcoholic at all. Maybe I was just a heavy drinker, you know,

somebody who just got carried away sometimes. But I'm so much older and wiser

now. You know, I think it would be safe now, after ten years, to go out and

have a little social drink."



We have a lot of retreads here in Hoosier AA who let themselves listen to that

lying voice inside their heads, and went back out drinking, and then had to

suffer years of misery before they finally came dragging themselves back in the

doors of AA, admitting finally, "O.K., I guess that I (even I) actually am an

alcoholic of some sort, the kind who needs AA meetings if I want to live instead

of dying."



I should also say that the people in Indiana who go back out and try it again

after ten years or so, are people who tell us later on that in fact they never

worked the steps, even though they went to meetings. It is particularly doing a

really thorough and deep reaching Fourth Step which is vital if you want people

to give you the ultimate accolade at your funeral, and say with enormous respect

in their voices, "he died sober," "she died sober."



So to Fiona's warning, I will add my own. Don't use those 3 and 5 year survival

rate statistics which were posted to play games with your life. Keep on going

to meetings. Keep up constant contact with your fellow AA members. Do a real

Fourth Step and ferret out all of the resentment and fear in your life, and

figure out what all your character defects are, so you won't be tempted to look

down your nose at ANYBODY in an AA meeting, thinking yourself superior to that

person in any way whatsoever. http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html



And remember that EVEN IF someone could prove that 33-1/3 % of genuine

alcoholics could eventually quit going to AA meetings and still be sober 3 years

later, or even 5 years later, that is till playing Russian roulette with a six

gun with four chambers loaded. And 5 years isn't 10 years or 15 years.



Glenn C.

South Bend, Indiana, U.S.

(A REAL alcoholic, sober today ONLY by the grace of God and the help of the

people in this fellowship, who is not planning on jumping out of the lifeboat,

thank you!)


0 -1 0 0
3008 Jon Markle
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 12/27/2005 10:13:00 PM


I would add that there is a *CLINICAL* differentiation between alcohol

*DEPENDENCY* and alcohol *ABUSE* and the treatment recommended is different,

although somewhat similar. A comparison of the criteria outlined in the Big

Book regarding the descriptions of drinkers to the clinical criteria found in

the DSM-IV-TR, reveals how amazingly close the two agree with the

differentiations.



I would also make the distinction that meeting attendance is not the same thing

as "working the program" . . . And not a requirement for either sobriety or the

kind of permanent sobriety of which the Book speaks.



Many people, who fit criteria for alcohol dependency ("alcoholics") go to

meetings, learn how to work the program (the steps) and incorporate them into

their lives as a way of life, without going to meetings forever. Such I think

was the author's intent when he wrote: "AA's twelve Steps are a group of

principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can

expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and

usefully whole."



Besides, as I recall, AA is for people who wish to stop drinking . . . It

doesn't really matter that they may or may not be dependent upon alcohol or

"simply" abuse it . . . A desire to stop is all that matters.



If indeed it is a Higher Power that keeps us sober, then simply going to

meetings isn't going to work for the long haul. But, working the spiritual

program in all our affairs will continue to insure sobriety . . . Even without

meetings.



Jon Markle

9/9/82


0 -1 0 0
3009 Mel Barger
Re: Responsibility statement and the 4th International Convention Responsibility statement and the 4th International Convention 12/27/2005 7:03:00 AM


Hi All,

Yes, I knew that Al S. composed the Responsibility Statement, although I never

met him.



Clarence Snyder also told me about spending time with Bill

in Toronto. Bill had wanted to see him, he said. I'm not surprised that Bill

enjoyed the meeting and showed no hard feelings. In all their correspondence,

it was always Bill who was conciliatory, etc., despite being criticized by

Clarence.



I believe there was some concern in AA over the fact that we had finally been

criticized by a national publication; i.e., the 1963 Harper's Magazine article

by Arthur Cain. If I am not mistaken, the 1965 Convention theme was that AA

should take its inventory.



I wasn't able to attend that year because our son Dean, now forty, chose that

weekend to be born. It was very thoughtful of AA to arrange things so that I

could finally attend a Toronto convention in 2005.



Mel Barger


0 -1 0 0
3010 Emmanuel John
James Houck (Oxford Group) James Houck (Oxford Group) 12/27/2005 11:54:00 AM


I was just at the house of Jim Houck the grandson of the James Houck you

mentioned, (on Friday night.) I do believe that his grand father is still

alive. We live in the Baltimore/Towson area of Maryland, he reports that his

grandfather got sober on 12-12, the day after Bill entered Towns for the last

time





Peace & Happy Days

Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C

_______________________________



See Message 3006 on James Houck


0 -1 0 0
3011 Mel Barger
Re: Re: Length of sobriety Length of sobriety 12/27/2005 6:51:00 AM


Hi All,



I talked with Chauncey C. by telephone yesterday. He is now in a care home in

Waterford, Mich., but is still sharp and willing to converse about his AA

experience. I first met him in 1950 when I was five months sober and had moved

to Pontiac, Mich., from my hometown, Norfolk, Nebr. He had nine years then, but

there were members in Pontiac and Detroit who had more time.



I don't think he got sober at Dr. Bob's house, but I can check that. He told

me that a judge in Pontiac helped get him in touch with the AA's there in 1941.

He was a blue-collar man and felt a little out of place with doctors and lawyers

in the group, but that quickly changed. He and his wife Vivian were married

when she was 13 or 14 and he was 15 or 16 (I must check that out!). Amazingly,

they are still married and close to their 80th anniversary! That must be some

kind of record.



Mel Barger



_______________________________



In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@c...> wrote:



There was a man at the International that claimed 62 years.



Diz T.



_______________________________



Hi Diz, Gary here / Alkie :)



I just saw that man the day before thanksgiving at a gratitude meeting that he

started over 57 yrs ago, his name is Chauncey C.



He is from Pontiac MI. & he will be 93 yrs old this month and also said he got

sober at Dr. Bob's house.



Yes he did say that he was the last one standing at A.A.'s International

Convention in Toronto Cananda for the 70th anniversary of A.A. this past summer.


0 -1 0 0
3012 pmds@aol.com
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 1/2/2006 8:49:00 AM


It seems to me that trying to make alcoholics different from heavy drinkers is

an attempt to make black and white out of something which is most likely gray.



The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is

primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics

metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of

the population (in the United States, in other places it is higher or lower.



It appears that the rate of alcoholism is lower in cultures that have had

alcohol the longest period of time and higher in those cultures that have had

it the least amount of time.) See for example Under the Influence by Milam et

al.



If, therefore, alcoholism is a real disease then it should be viewed as a

real disease.



Some diabetics can control their diabetes by diet, others by diet and oral

medication and others by multiple daily injections. Each one is a "real"

diabetic, it is the disease itself that is different in different people. Some

milder, some more severe.



Some alcoholics get sober in their teens, others in their 80's and all ages

in between. Are we to decide which are real alcoholics? Logically it would

seem that those in their 80's may have a milder form of alcoholism as they were

able to drink longer, function and not die. The younger ones perhaps have a

very severe form and therefore are unable to continue.



We in AA talk a lot about spirituality and higher powers, but I think we

forget about the miraculous nature of sobriety. The "spiritual awakening," the

"moment of clarity," the "surrender," the "epiphany," the

"emotional/spiritual/psychological bottom," the "moment of nonjudgmental

awareness" or whatever name it is given...the moment when we receive the gift of

the ability to

not drink is what it is.



Some have this moment and go to AA, some to church, some nowhere and some

other places too innumerable to mentions. In AA we say "Having had a spiritual

awakening as the result of these steps." However, we know that Bill had his

before any steps whatever. I had mine the day before I entered a treatment

center and I didn't even know what the steps were. We all have many,

many stories about people's spiritual awakening and as the person who had it

describes it, we see what they are talking about because it happened to us.



Going to AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than not going to AA

guarantees continued drinking. I came to AA for the first time in 1984 and I

have been sober ever since. I went to at least 1,000 meetings in my first two

years. Since that time I have never had a period of time more than a week or

so that I have not gone to meetings and I generally go to 3-5 meetings per

week. That doesn't necessarily keep me sober, it is just what I do. I love

the people, the experience, the blending, the hope, the tears, the

laughter....the whole package. Many do not do what I do. It doesn't make them

better or worse or more or less likely to drink. At least that is my opinion

based on my experience.



Having said all of the above, I'm not sure this "Real or Fake

Alcoholic/heavy drinker" is an appropriate topic for the AA HistoryLovers. I

think the study is very interesting and not surprising to me, but to try and

figure this out does not seem "figureoutable." There is tremendous wisdom in

the phrase "You're an alcoholic when you say you are."



Dave Smith





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3013 Cherie'' P
Chauncy C. (length of sobriety) Chauncy C. (length of sobriety) 12/27/2005 9:22:00 PM


Hi, I had to reply to this one, as I too met Chauncy at the Thanksgiving Eve

Gratitude meeting that Chauncy started 57 years ago. I sat in the front row and

felt very honored and humbled to be able to meet this man in person.



He told a few stories at the Gratitude meeting, but not about Bill W. I wonder

if he has done other open talks in the past where he has spoken about these

things, and where could they be purchased if the talks were taped?



We do have Serenity Taping here that does alot of AA taping, not sure how long

they have been around though.



Gary, I was also in Toronto, and yep, Chauncy was there. But was HE standing or

was someone standing in his place? In November he didnt look like he could stand

up out of his wheelchair to me.



Gary, email me privatley, I bet we may have met at some AA event in the area,

even if we dont know we did lol



Hugs

Cherie'

One Day At A Time

DOS 04-26-01


0 -1 0 0
3014 elodge1@peoplepc.com>
Xmas messages from Bill W. Xmas messages from Bill W. 12/28/2005 7:46:00 AM


Hi Cherie...



Actually I found quite a few ... you can access some of these at this link...



http://silkworth.net/pdfBillW/pdfBillW3.html ...



Happy Holidays...



rick...new hampshire

_____________________________



Original message from: Cherie' P



I received the following Christmas message from Bill W to the fellowship in

1944.



My question is, is this the ONLY year he wrote a letter of this nature? And if

others exist, please provide links to them if possible.



thanks



Hugs

Cherie'

One Day At A Time

DOS 04-26-01


0 -1 0 0
3015 Mitchell K.
Re: Spook Room at Stepping Stones, Dr. Bob and Anne Spook Room at Stepping Stones, Dr. Bob and Anne 12/28/2005 7:44:00 AM


Clarence used to tell me stories about how Bill, Bob

and himself had engaged in some spooky endeavors. They

invoked some esoteric mumblings and stood at the

mirror watching their beards grow (I guess that's

kinda like watching grass growing) and Clarence

described the trio like forefathers of hippies -

sitting around a room in their socks with Bill playing

(I think it was) the violin and shuffling to "Mr.

Sandman." Clarence never said that Anne was involved

in these sessions and it appears from what he said

that they were more "stag" sessions.



That type of behavior (dabbling into the occult) was

very popular in those days and wasn't looked upon as

against any sort of mainstream religious belief.


0 -1 0 0
3016 Mitchell K.
Re: Hank P. and early AA Hank P. and early AA 12/28/2005 7:54:00 AM


Just a quickie because I have to be off to work.



Clarence wasn't the only salesperson - Hank was one as

well as it appears there were a couple of others on

and off. Hank was also married to Dorothy's sisters.

Hank was very angry at Bill and AA in general.



Clarence used his being a traveling salesperson gig in

order to start AA meetings and attend them.



Just another quick echo to what Mel stated about our

dear brother Merton.... If there is anything out there

to be found it will probably be Merton who will find

it. I too have found Merton to be the top researcher

out there. Thank you!



--- greatcir@comcast.net wrote:



> In 1947 Hank Parkhurst wrote a letter to Clarence

> Snyder regarding their "porcelain moulding" business

> complaining that Clarence was "messed up" with AA

> and other things and was not working the porcelain

> business.

>

> What was the porcelain moulding business and why was

> Hank relying so heavily on Clarence to make the

> sales? The letter suggests that Clarence might be

> the only salesman.

>

> There is another letter to Clarence in 1946 where

> Hank admits to drinking beer for a couple of weeks

> so I assume he was still doing this in 1947.

>

> God Bless,

>

> Pete K.


0 -1 0 0
3017 tsirish1
Meeting makers make it Meeting makers make it 12/28/2005 12:45:00 PM


I would love to know where the expression "Meeting makers make it" came from.

The only reference to it that I have found was a caption to a cartoon in one of

the Best of the Grapevines. Please help me find the origin of this statement

(which I also believe to be erroneous).


0 -1 0 0
3018 chris fuccione
Re: The 1968-1974 AA comic strips online The 1968-1974 AA comic strips online 12/28/2005 7:43:00 PM


That's intresting I have one question. On the top of them it says

that they are AL-ANON Conference Approved Literature.



The one that was "IF YOUR PARRENTS DRINK TOO MUCH" and "JANE'S HUSBAND DRINKS

TOO MUCH" seems like they would be An AL-ANON pieces ...... but "IT HAPPENED TO

ALICE" and "WHAT HAPPENED TO JOE" are both AA Literature.



Why is the AL-ANON blurb on the top of them?



Chris

























--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rudy890 <Rudy890@o...> wrote:

>

> Came across this old strip, a complete set of the 1968-1974

Alcoholics Anonymous comic strips.

>

> http://www.ep.tc/aa-comics/

>

> Just Click On Each Strip After You've Read It

>

> Hugs

> Rudy

>

>

> PLEASE VISIT MY HOME PAGE

> http://www.geocities.com/rudy849

> ============================

> rudy890@o...

> http://www.cloudmark.com/?rc=9mttaa

> ============================

> Consider How Hard It Is To Change Yourself

> And You'll Understand What Little Chance

> You Have In Trying To Changing Others

> º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤øø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤øø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>


0 -1 0 0
3019 brian thompson
James Houck (length of sobriety) James Houck (length of sobriety) 12/28/2005 10:58:00 PM


Gary,



I met James Houck on September 2nd this year 05. He just celebrated 71 yrs

of sobriety on Dec 12th. James will be 100 yrs old on Feb 21 2006.



I will also be there for his birthday in Towson, MD.



James doesn't claim to have the longest length of sobriety in AA, since he

got sober in the Oxford Group and stayed with them for many years.



He curtainly has the longest sobriety of anyone alive just not in AA.



I was also at the International In Toronto. It was great seeing Chauncey

with 63 yrs.



This is a great site,

Brian T. Camp Verde, AZ


0 -1 0 0
3020 Glenn Chesnut
James Houck and AA in Towson James Houck and AA in Towson 1/3/2006 4:50:00 PM


A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of

Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at

Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on

to me.



James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people

in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA.



In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford

Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in

their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any

accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics.

All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who

were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the

early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that.



What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s

claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness

on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA

meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him

around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of

people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group

actually works with alcoholics.



James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson

Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a

real AA meeting would operate in the modern period.



JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the

Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has

been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims

about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/



In response to Wally's questioning in

http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsforjamesh.ht\

ml
James Houck said:

______________________________



"Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of

the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's.

AA has changed over the years -- today’s program is very different from the

“original.” For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings,

workshops and conventions about the “original” program of recovery. My Sobriety

date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as

did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard,

Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as

well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA

meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like

the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the

Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I

have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message

primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance

with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am

living."

______________________________



When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at

Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA

group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA

program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the

United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he

know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to

regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate?



What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has

been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings

at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their

AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even

knew who James was.



He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was

doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It

was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized

people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving

only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know

anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has

been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA.



There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s

testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs

to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report

to Kurtz as he wrote it:



______________________________



Hi, Glenn!



Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck,

authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about

his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have

read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I

rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the

item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between

the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA,

yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is

emphasized.



I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda,

MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in

this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally

presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at

least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might

find this information of interest.



*********



Ernie!



I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James

Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage

onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have

joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the

information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else

on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery,

and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense.



I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December

27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves

as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting

is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three

Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works,

Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a

20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one

17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it.



I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for

conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to

Basics movement.



They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he

recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently

come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure.



They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking

about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative.



The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran

who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about

all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw

little utility to pursuing this matter any more.



My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited

for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in

traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least

in my own environment ....



That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson

did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford

Movement, is a minor curiosity.



**********



I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again,

for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope

you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year.



JM









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3021 robin_foote
Real alcoholics Real alcoholics 12/30/2005 1:50:00 AM


Hi AA History Lovers,



The recent discussions on 'real alcoholics' reminded me of the following study

and I thought I would share it with you. Hope it 'fits' the AA History Lovers

essence.



I have wondered for some years about the referral rate and criteria for referral

to AA. Additionally, I have questioned the reported incidence of alcoholism in

the general population.



A study in 2004 that compared alcohol dependence and alcohol abuse found that up

to a third of alcoholics did not abuse alcohol. That is a third of alcoholics

did not drink at the damaging levels decided by health authorities (often

defined as above 3 drinks a day for men and 2 drinks a day for women).



If these alcoholics are not being identified by generally accepted

questionnaires to identify alcohol dependence then they are not being

referred for treatment or AA. The same report makes that very point.



The study; Hasin DS, Grant BF. (2004) The co-occurrence of DSM-IV alcohol abuse

in DSM-IV alcohol dependence. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2004

Sep;61(9):891-6. RESULTS: Among respondents with current alcohol

dependence, 33.7% did not additionally meet criteria for alcohol abuse

(29.0% among men and 46.1% among women).



This is confirmation that what AA says; Its not what, where, how much or who

with; it's the effect that alcohol has that defines alcoholism.



Perhaps the 'success' rates of AA and the referral rates are being affected by

healthcare workers assessing 'alcohol abuse' as alcoholism and not using the AA

criteria - thus inflating referral rates to AA. An alcohol abuser

(non-alcoholic) is unlikely to identify with AA members. This has all sorts of

implications for perceptions of AA.



The Big Book states; "To be gravely affected, one does not necessarily have to

drink a long time nor take the quantities some of us have. This is particularly

true of women. Potential female alcoholics often turn into the real thing and

are gone beyond recall in a few years." (AA, pp 33).



If the above is kept in mind perhaps we would reach some of the others who are

not now being referred to AA.



Robin F.

Brisbane, Australia



www.brieftsf.com <http://www.brieftsf.com/>


0 -1 0 0
3022 mertonmm3
Re: Hank P. and early AA Hank P. and early AA 1/2/2006 7:28:00 AM


Hi Pete,



As you probably know Clarence and Hank were brothers in law. After the

stock redemption/royalty sequence Hank carried a lifelong resentment

because the agreement was that only Dr. Bob would receive any proceeds

from the book. Dr. Bob did not want the royalty. Bill insisted that he

take it to avoid a potential claim by Hank. (Legally this last

assertation by Bill does not make sense but could be convincing coming

from a person with most of law school completed to someone with no

legal training.) Shortly thereafter Bill asked to "borrow" Dr. Bob's

royalty if he didn't need it.



One of the two letters housed at GSO became public and made it onto

the interernet: See



http://www.aagso.org/1941/index.htm



As is often the case particularly with AA History, and perhaps much of

history, one document is available where the surrounding documents

which establish context are not. I was fortunate enough to have read

and transcribed all the documents at GSO and Stepping Stones from this

era for a yet unpublished manuscript I've written.



My opinion, (emphasis on the last word), is that the issue is not that

Bill received a royalty, but that Hank did not. (and that Hank has a

innocent living decendent that genuinely is in need presently and Bill

does not).



As to the "porcelain buisness" to which you inquire Hank began a

buisness manufacturing Toby Mugs in the late 40's for which Clarence

was a salesman. You may recall the large decorative beer mugs often

sold in airport gift shops awhile back that had a pirates head as the

vessel and a parrot for a handle. There were many other head/handle

caricatures that being one example. The letterhead lists "Henry

Parkhusrst, Sales Management, Manufacturing, 1270 Ocean Avenue, West

Haven, Conn." Interestingly there is no "Inc." or "Co." after his name

or the pseudonym "Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains" on the letterhead

indicating that he probably learned the legalities of such use after

the failure to register the uncorporated buisness names of Henry G.

Parkhurst, Inc., Honor Dealers, Stainox Inc., Sharing Inc. or, until

1940, Works Publishing Company. Note that "Giffen" is Hank's middle name.



In addition to Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains there are two other

entity/people listed under Sales Management. These are, Stanley

Ballard & Co, Hand Made Porcelains, and Lumen Kelsey, Sculptured

Porcelains. These reflect possible other sales reps besides Clarence

although the collection of correspondence indicates the former as more

of a resseller. I've been told by a reliable source that the actual

small manufacturing plant was near Trenton, New Jersey and was also

shown a photograph of it. Hank speaks of kilns in the correspondence.

The West Haven, Conn. address is a bit of an anomaly as Hank's return

address and cancelled envelopes to him invarialy indicate General Mail

Facility, West Orange, N.J. as his place of pickup.



I doubt anyone could argue that both Hank and Clarence had somewhat

abrasive personalities. This often makes their correspondence somewhat

humerous, (depending, of course, on the readers sense of humor).

Neither held much back. For example one letter begans:



"Listen Snyder; Don't ever write me another letter like this one. I

DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THIS KIND OF CRAP FROM YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. This is

the second time you have shot off at me like this - AND THE LAST."



The passage you refer to states that Hank admits to drinking a few

beers for a few weeks and that he found it negative and quit. This is

the only written record I have seen of his drinking during the early

40's thru his death. Interviews years ago I had with his surviving

relatives indicated multiple year periods of abstinence followed by

binges. He was reportedly abstinent for the entire period of his third

marriage to a Houston Oil heiress whom was the "real love of his

life". She died of a lung disease and this is where he obtained the

money for the $40,000 chicken coup I discussed earlier.



With respect to the implication that HAnk's drinking somehow voided

his rights in the book, it is necessary to remember that nobody has

the right to illegally deprieve someone of their property because

someone is drinking. Of course the situation which Bill found himself

was that someone drinking would not be good PR for a book on how to

stop. However the agreement that neither would take a royalty

deprieves Hank's living relatives of a rightful inheritence. There is

a solution to this issue which would cost a fraction of one years

expeses paid for the present copyright litigation or alot less than

one year's royalty payout to others.



-merton











--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, <greatcir@c...> wrote:

>

> In 1947 Hank Parkhurst wrote a letter to Clarence Snyder regarding

their "porcelain moulding" business complaining that Clarence was

"messed up" with AA and other things and was not working the porcelain

business.

>

> What was the porcelain moulding business and why was Hank relying so

heavily on Clarence to make the sales? The letter suggests that

Clarence might be the only salesman.

>

> There is another letter to Clarence in 1946 where Hank admits to

drinking beer for a couple of weeks so I assume he was still doing

this in 1947.

>

> God Bless,

>

> Pete K.

>


0 -1 0 0
3023 Tom Hickcox
Re: Memories of Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) Memories of Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) 1/3/2006 3:00:00 AM


At 10:08 12/24/2005 , Glenn Chessnut wrote:



>Ralph's niece told me that he died because a doctor gave him an

>airsickness shot with a needle that had been improperly steriziled (that

>was back in the days when doctor's reused hypodermic needles over and over

>again). Apparently the person on whom the doctor had used the needle the

>previous time had hepatitis. They rushed Ralph to the hospital in

>Owensboro, Kentucky, where one of the doctors was an AA member, and the

>only physician whom Ralph trusted by now.



I am old enough to have been given many shots with reused needles. It is

my recollection that normal autoclaving killed almost all of the bacteria

and viruses but higher temperatures were needed to kill certain ones like

some forms of hepatitis and most autoclaves did not do this, so standard

practice of the day did not eliminate this risk. My physician in the

period of the late 50s/early 60s had an autoclave that was capable of

achieving conditions that completely sterilized the needles.



My point is that Fr. Pfau was not infected due to neglect per se. My

understanding is that needles used on hepatitis patients were either not

used again or sterilized in autoclaves capable of destroying the hepatitis

vector.



Tommy in Baton Rouge





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3024 Rob White
Re: James Houck and AA in Towson James Houck and AA in Towson 1/6/2006 9:07:00 AM


I have been reading these entires with some mild amusement.



Having lived in the Towson area for most of my life (age 54) and having been a

grateful member of AA for over 25 years,

I know who this James H is but he is a non-entity to Baltimore or Towson AA.



He does not go to meetings and the old timers don't know him (except by the odd

story about him).

I learned more about him from the Time Magazine article last year then anything

else.



I say God Bless him- but don't look to him for anything other than an eccentric

old fellow that has some interesting stories.



But he is no AA icon around here or anywhere else.



Rob W.



>>> glennccc@sbcglobal.net 1/3/2006 4:50 PM >>>

A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of

Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at

Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on

to me.



James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people

in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA.



In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford

Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in

their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any

accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics.

All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who

were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the

early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that.



What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s

claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness

on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA

meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him

around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of

people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group

actually works with alcoholics.



James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson

Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a

real AA meeting would operate in the modern period.



JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the

Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has

been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims

about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/



In response to Wally's questioning in

http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsforjamesh.ht\

ml
James Houck said:

______________________________



"Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of

the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's.

AA has changed over the years -- today's program is very different from the

"original." For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings,

workshopps and conventions about the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety

date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as

did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard,

Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as

well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA

meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like

the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the

Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I

have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message

primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance

with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am

living."

______________________________



When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at

Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA

group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA

program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the

United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he

know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to

regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate?



What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has

been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings

at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their

AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even

knew who James was.



He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was

doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It

was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized

people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving

only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know

anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has

been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA.



There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s

testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs

to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report

to Kurtz as he wrote it:



______________________________



Hi, Glenn!



Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck,

authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about

his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have

read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I

rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the

item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between

the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA,

yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is

emphasized.



I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda,

MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in

this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally

presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at

least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might

find this information of interest.



*********



Ernie!



I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James

Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage

onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have

joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the

information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else

on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery,

and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense.



I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December

27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves

as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting

is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three

Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works,

Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a

20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one

17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it.



I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for

conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to

Basics movement.



They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he

recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently

come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure.



They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking

about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative.



The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran

who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about

all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw

little utility to pursuing this matter any more.



My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited

for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in

traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least

in my own environment ....



That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson

did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford

Movement, is a minor curiosity.



**********



I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again,

for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope

you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year.



JM









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3025 JOHN e REID
Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/3/2006 10:59:00 PM


The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA Around

Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion.



Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how much

alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA Number 5" in

Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA".



Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of fairly new

folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in the food, it is ALL

cooked out!!!!"



For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the results of

that previous study?



All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3026 Glenn Chesnut
Send individual comments directly to the group member Send individual comments directly to the group member 1/7/2006 5:34:00 PM


To the members of the AAHistoryLovers:



The way the Pending Messages are displayed in the Yahoo Group system, there is

no way I can forward a message to another member of the group simply by pushing

a button.



I would have to cut the message out, and paste it into an email on my own

email system and then send that to the other group member.



So if you want to contact another group member in order to comment on that

person's posting, it would be greatly appreciated if you could look up the other

person's email address (which is sometimes time consuming to look up, but is

what I would have to do) and send your message to that person directly.



I'm beginning to get overwhelmed with multitudes of messages sent in to the

Pending Messages board which are in fact messages to other individual group

members instead of messages for general posting. I know that in chat groups

there are a lot of back and forth messages like that, but please remember that

one of the central guidelines of the AAHistoryLovers is that we do not want to

function as a chat group.



Thanks much!



Glenn Chesnut (moderator)

South Bend, Indiana, USA





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3027 ArtSheehan
RE: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 1/3/2006 11:21:00 AM


The chain of messages on the term "real alcoholic" seems to be

straying away from history. There are certain terms that are likely

best to avoid in this forum since they tend to lead far more to

endless un-retractable debate over semantics rather than clarity.

Among those tedious terms are "recovered vs recovering", "spiritual vs

religious" and "real alcoholic vs problem drinker or vs whatever."



Now having said that, let's try to provide a historical perspective

that culminated in the 12&12 (1953) and originated in the Big Book

(1935-1939). It is the matter of AA laying out the welcome mat for

those prospects who were not low bottom drunks (as were the very early

members).



In the 12&12 essay on Step One (page 23) it states:



"Alcoholics Anonymous," published when our membership was small, dealt

with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate alcoholics tried A.A.,

but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of

hopelessness.



It is a tremendous satisfaction to record that in the following years

this changed. Alcoholics who still had their health, their families,

their jobs, and even two cars in the garage, began to recognize their

alcoholism. As this trend grew, they were joined by young people who

were scarcely more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that

last ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone

through. Since Step One requires an admission that our lives have

become unmanageable, how could people such as these take this Step?



There are quite a few mentions of the term "real alcoholic" in the Big

Book as noted below --[in brackets for emphasis]--



Page 21: But what about the --[real alcoholic]--? He may start off as

a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard

drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose

all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.



Pages 23-24: The tragic truth is that if the man be a --[real

alcoholic]--, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a

certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a

state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely

no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically

every case long before it is suspected.



Page 30



MOST OF us have been unwilling to admit we were --[real alcoholics]--.

No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his

fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers

have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could

drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will

control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every

abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing.

Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.



We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that

we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion

that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.



We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control

our drinking. We know that no --[real alcoholic]-- ever recovers

control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but

such intervals-usually brief-were inevitably followed by still less

control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible

demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type

are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period

we get worse, never better.



Page 31: Despite all we can say, many who are --[real alcoholics]--

are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of

self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves

exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is

showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face

and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we

have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!



Page 34: As we look back, we feel we had gone on drinking many years

beyond the point where we could quit on our will power. If anyone

questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try

leaving liquor alone for one year. If he is a --[real alcoholic]-- and

very far advanced, there is scant chance of success. In the early days

of our drinking we occasionally remained sober for a year or more,

becoming serious drinkers again later. Though you may be able to stop

for a considerable period, you may yet be a potential alcoholic. We

think few, to whom this book will appeal, can stay dry anything like a

year. Some will be drunk the day after making their resolutions; most

of them within a few weeks.



Page 35: We told him what we knew of alcoholism and the answer we had

found. He made a beginning. His family was re-assembled, and he began

to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking.

All went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life.

To his consternation, he found himself drunk half a dozen times in

rapid succession. On each of these occasions we worked with him,

reviewing carefully what had happened. He agreed he was a --[real

alcoholic]-- and in a serious condition. He knew he faced another trip

to the asylum if he kept on. Moreover, he would lose his family for

whom he had a deep affection.



Page 92: If you are satisfied that he is a --[real alcoholic]--, begin

to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your

own experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first

drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this

stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss

it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his

own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his

drinking, tell him that possibly he can-if he is not too alcoholic.

But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little

chance he can recover by himself.



Page 109: Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is

unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets

entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is

positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without

your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he

is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He

is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like

other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day

also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious

drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over

the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately

next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks

of a --[real alcoholic]--. Perhaps he can still tend to business

fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among

ourselves, "He wants to want to stop."



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----



Des,



Let me try my hand at answering your question.



It was common in early AA to distinguish between three different kinds

of drinkers. Let's call them Types 1, 2, and 3 for the purposes of

this discussion. Sometimes they were called (Type 1) "social

drinkers," (Type 2) "heavy drinkers," and (Type 3) "alcoholics."

Richmond Walker, in Twenty Four Hours a Day (1948), referred to the

last category as "merry go round drinkers."



Mrs. Marty Mann makes this same kind of distinction in the book she

wrote for the National Council on Alcoholism. Our South Bend good old

timer, Brownie, makes that three-fold distinction in the material

about him in The St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad Man. Dr. Jellinek

(and many others) tried to make distinctions of this same sort during

the 1940's and 1950's.



It had been noted that some alcoholics were clearly drinking

alcoholically from the time they took their very first drink. The

first time they had a chance at a bottle (even if they were just

teenagers), they drank themselves rip roaring drunk, and they just

kept on drinking that way from that point on.



But other alcoholics started out as social drinkers, and then

gradually began drinking more and more, until finally after enough

years they crossed some invisible line, and became clearly and

unambiguously alcoholic drinkers.



Psychologists who study alcoholism and public health agencies which

are concerned with alcoholism have found that they also have to make

some kind of distinction between people who are drinking a lot, and

people who are alcoholics. You cannot measure the amount of alcohol

that is consumed and use that to determine who is a heavy drinker and

who is an alcoholic.



All sorts of fancy definitions have been dreamed up by psychologists,

medical doctors, and so on, to try to identify where you make the

division between Type Two heavy drinkers (or "alcohol abusers" or

whatever term you're using) and Type Three genuine alcoholics.



Let us not get into quarrels about what precise terminology to use

here, because there have been a variety of different terms used over

the years.



But as far as I can see, the basic distinction historically has been a

simple one. A Type Two heavy drinker (or alcohol abuser, or whatever)

who is given sufficient reason to stop drinking, will be able to stop

on his own simply by using will power. Maybe his doctor puts him on a

heart medication and tells him that he has to take the medication to

save his life, and that this medication cannot be mixed with alcohol

in the system. Or something in his life puts him in a situation where

he will get in enormous trouble if he does not quit. So he simply

grits his teeth, and stops drinking. Just like that. Permanently.



A Type Three true alcoholic will find that he cannot stop drinking on

his own, by his own will power, no matter how serious the consequences

are going to be. His wife says that she will leave him, his employer

says that he will fire him, the judge says that he will give him

twenty years in prison the next time he drives drunk, his doctor says

that he will be dead within a year if he keeps on drinking. But no

matter what it is, a true alcoholic will STILL keep drinking, in spite

of all that, if he is trying to do it by himself by his own willpower.

If you listen to tape recordings of the good old timers, you will find

numerous examples of alcoholics whose drinking was destroying them

totally, who still could not stop on their own, simply by using will

power.



One thing which muddies the waters nowadays, is that (beginning with

Dr. Jellinek's famous chart back in the 1940's) the experts on

alcoholism have assembled data on the way that the disease of

alcoholism progresses, where they can spot the symptoms of Type Three

chronic alcoholism much earlier than they could in the 1930's and

1940's. So nowadays we can sometimes identify a person as definitely

a chronic alcoholic early in the progression of the disease, and send

that person off to AA, and save that person an awful lot of misery and

heartbreak, EVEN THOUGH in early AA they would not have allowed that

person to attend AA meetings because they would have felt that this

person's drinking did not qualify him or her to be a "true alcoholic"

yet.



So is this particular individual a Type Two heavy drinker who is

getting himself or herself in trouble, and maybe needs some

encouragement to quit doing that from a psychotherapist or someone

like that?



Or is this particular individual a Type Three alcoholic EARLY in the

progression of the disease, who hasn't gotten himself or herself in

major trouble yet, but who nevertheless is going to need AA in order

to quit? In current AA jargon, we would sometimes call this kind of

person a "high bottom" drunk.



So what Fiona was asking was, were the people in that statistical

table who went to AA meetings for a year and then quit going to

meetings but were still sober even five years later, actually Type

Three alcoholics? Or were they Type Two heavy drinkers who got sober

in AA meetings, but actually would have been able to get sober all on

their own anyway, just by using their own willpower?



In other words, were they Type Two heavy drinkers who had been

misdiagnosed as early stage Type Three alcoholics?



The issue at stake is, is it EVER safe for a Type Three genuine

alcoholic to quit going to meetings? If they quit going to meetings,

will Type Three alcoholics ALWAYS inevitably go back to their

alcoholic drinking sooner or later? The good old timers in my part of

Indiana say (on the basis of their many years of experience) that Type

Three genuine alcoholics will ALWAYS go back to drinking eventually if

they quit going to AA meetings, with the one exception that a few do

manage to use church going as a substitute for AA meetings, and can

stay sober that way.



Fiona's question is not some nit picking question about numbers and

statistics, but a word of warning about something which could cost

alcoholics their lives if they make the wrong decision. Fiona is

warning all of us (based in her case of her knowledge of Irish

alcoholics): do NOT assume on the basis of those 3 and 5 year survival

rate statistics which were recently posted that you will have some

hope of staying sober if you quit going to AA meetings.



Given the fact that Fiona's Irish alcoholics and my own Hoosier

alcoholics here in Indiana seem to suffer the same fate if they quit

going to AA meetings, I would advise anyone reading these AAHL

postings to take Fiona's warning with deadly seriousness. Her warning

is simple: don't use those 3 and 5 year survival statistics to play

games with your life, if you are a true alcoholic.



I would add an additional warning to hers. Alcoholism is cunning,

baffling, and powerful. Also patient, sneaky, and lying. Many a true

alcoholic here in my part of Indiana has gone to AA meetings and

stayed sober for a long time (maybe even ten years of more) until the

voice of Mr. Alcoholism inside that person's head has started

murmuring, "You know, I haven't had any trouble staying off the booze

these past ten years, and you know, I'm not really like some of these

other people in the AA meetings. I'm more intelligent than they are,

have more will power and self control. I never fell as low as they

fell. Maybe I'm not really an alcoholic at all. Maybe I was just a

heavy drinker, you know, somebody who just got carried away sometimes.

But I'm so much older and wiser now. You know, I think it would be

safe now, after ten years, to go out and have a little social drink."



We have a lot of retreads here in Hoosier AA who let themselves listen

to that lying voice inside their heads, and went back out drinking,

and then had to suffer years of misery before they finally came

dragging themselves back in the doors of AA, admitting finally, "O.K.,

I guess that I (even I) actually am an alcoholic of some sort, the

kind who needs AA meetings if I want to live instead of dying."



I should also say that the people in Indiana who go back out and try

it again after ten years or so, are people who tell us later on that

in fact they never worked the steps, even though they went to

meetings. It is particularly doing a really thorough and deep

reaching Fourth Step which is vital if you want people to give you the

ultimate accolade at your funeral, and say with enormous respect in

their voices, "he died sober," "she died sober."



So to Fiona's warning, I will add my own. Don't use those 3 and 5

year survival rate statistics which were posted to play games with

your life. Keep on going to meetings. Keep up constant contact with

your fellow AA members. Do a real Fourth Step and ferret out all of

the resentment and fear in your life, and figure out what all your

character defects are, so you won't be tempted to look down your nose

at ANYBODY in an AA meeting, thinking yourself superior to that person

in any way whatsoever. http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html



And remember that EVEN IF someone could prove that 33-1/3 % of genuine

alcoholics could eventually quit going to AA meetings and still be

sober 3 years later, or even 5 years later, that is till playing

Russian roulette with a six gun with four chambers loaded. And 5

years isn't 10 years or 15 years.



Glenn C.

South Bend, Indiana, U.S.

(A REAL alcoholic, sober today ONLY by the grace of God and the help

of the people in this fellowship, who is not planning on jumping out

of the lifeboat, thank you!)


0 -1 0 0
3028 mertonmm3
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 1/4/2006 7:47:00 PM


A response to Message 3012 from Dave Smith

<pmds@aol.com> (pmds at aol.com)



From <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)



An interesting point but I take issue with your primary premise that

alcoholism is a purely physical disease like diabetes. All of what you

say is true as Dr. Silkworth points out in his Opinion and the

"phenomenon of craving" which develops after the first drink. However

you teach a diabetic to adjust his insulin level and diet and "problem

solved". If you tell the alcoholic just not to take the first drink

(after hospitalization) because thats where the phenomenon begans and

problem solved right??????? Its common sense, no first drink no

problem????? You tell someone allergic to strawberries, no

strawberries and they'll usually avoid them, same thing with booze,

right?????



The real problem with alcohol is in the mind, NOT THE BODY. Its the

insanity of being without any ability not to take the first drink

after a period of sobriety. Its the mental obsession not the

compulsion that requires 15 month long trips to the treatment center.



Thats what the chapter "There is a Solution" tells us.



Much of what you say is true. Bill never says AA is the only way.

Anyone who reads the Jerry McAuley books from the late 1800's knows

that people were recovering from alcoholism thru spiritual experience

long before AA. And Bill also supported research into any medical

research that would help. If you look closely at his life you'll see

that Bill formally divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE

TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really

what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also

what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin

B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism.



I'm not a big Bill Wilson flagwaver. Please understand that I have

serious issues. But with alcoholism its not a football game between

the AA's and the non-AA's. Its Alcoholics who have decided thats what

they are (or whatever label you want to put on someone who can't stop

drinking when they want to) vs. the mental obsession that somehow,

someway, we'll be able to drink without the consequenses of the one

way elevator ride.



The easy way (my opinion) is to become like a leaf on the ground

fighting nothing for a year surrounded by people who have succeeded

somehow. No fight, just let the wind blow us around for awhile. (Of

course this is always when the significant other we've been waiting

for our entire life shows up and we entangle ourselves - or "we're

just going to be friends" - or "listen, its just sex, not a

relationship". We're complicated. Our minds tell us strange things

which we actually believe (but nobody else does).



-merton



______________________________________



In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Dave Smith pmds@a... wrote:

>

> It seems to me that trying to make alcoholics different from heavy

drinkers is an attempt to make black and white out of something which

is most likely gray.

>

> The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that

alcoholism is primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility.

Physiologically alcoholics metabolize alcohol and mind altering

chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of the population (in the United

States, in other places it is higher or lower.

>

> It appears that the rate of alcoholism is lower in cultures that

have had alcohol the longest period of time and higher in those

cultures that have had it the least amount of time.) See for example

Under the Influence by Milam et al.

>

> If, therefore, alcoholism is a real disease then it should be

viewed as a real disease.

>

> Some diabetics can control their diabetes by diet, others by

diet and oral medication and others by multiple daily injections.

Each one is a "real" diabetic, it is the disease itself that is

different in different people. Some milder, some more severe.

>

> Some alcoholics get sober in their teens, others in their 80's

and all ages in between. Are we to decide which are real alcoholics?

Logically it would seem that those in their 80's may have a milder

form of alcoholism as they were able to drink longer, function and

not die. The younger ones perhaps have a very severe form and

therefore are unable to continue.

>

> We in AA talk a lot about spirituality and higher powers, but I

think we forget about the miraculous nature of sobriety. The

"spiritual awakening," the "moment of clarity," the "surrender," the

"epiphany," the "emotional/spiritual/psychological bottom," the

"moment of nonjudgmental awareness" or whatever name it is

given...the moment when we receive the gift of the ability to

> not drink is what it is.

>

> Some have this moment and go to AA, some to church, some

nowhere and some other places too innumerable to mentions. In AA we

say "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps."

However, we know that Bill had his before any steps whatever. I had

mine the day before I entered a treatment center and I didn't even

know what the steps were. We all have many,

> many stories about people's spiritual awakening and as the person

who had it describes it, we see what they are talking about because

it happened to us.

>

> Going to AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than not going

to AA guarantees continued drinking. I came to AA for the first time

in 1984 and I have been sober ever since. I went to at least 1,000

meetings in my first two years. Since that time I have never had a

period of time more than a week or so that I have not gone to meetings

and I generally go to 3-5 meetings per week. That doesn't

necessarily keep me sober, it is just what I do. I love the people,

the experience, the blending, the hope, the tears, the

laughter....the whole package. Many do not do what I do. It doesn't

make them better or worse or more or less likely to drink. At least

that is my opinion based on my experience.

>

> Having said all of the above, I'm not sure this "Real or Fake

> Alcoholic/heavy drinker" is an appropriate topic for the AA

HistoryLovers. I think the study is very interesting and not

surprising to me, but to try and figure this out does not seem

"figureoutable." There is tremendous wisdom in the phrase "You're an

alcoholic when you say you are."

>

> Dave Smith

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>


0 -1 0 0
3029 Doug B.
Re: Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/7/2006 2:28:00 AM


I got this guide online:

http://www.betterendings.org/Recipes/cookal.htm





Cooking With Alcohol



When cooking with beer or alcohol, does all of the alcohol evaporate?



No. The following chart should be helpful.



PREPARATION METHOD / AlcoholRetained



No heat application, immediate consumption 100%



No heat application, overnight storage 70%



Alcohol ingredient added to boiling liquid, and removed from heat 85%



Flamed 75%



Baked, approximately 25 minutes, alcohol ingredient

on surface of mixture (not stirred in) 45%



Baked/simmered, alcohol ingredient stirred into mixture

15 minutes / 40%

30 minutes / 35%

1 hour / 25%

1.5 hours / 20%

2 hours / 10%

2.5 hours / 5%



source: Minnesota Nutrition Council Newsletter



What can I substitute if a recipe calls for beverages with alcohol?



The best, but not always the easiest solution, is to find another recipe

without alcohol that will fill the need. If the beer or wine is a major

ingredient in your recipe, or if a large quantity is called for, it

makes sense not to attempt a substitute. The results could be

unpleasant. In such a case, look for another recipe.



Often the alcohol required will be a small amount, such as a couple of

tablespoons, and in this case there are several substitutions:



In recipes having plenty of seasonings, plan water may be substituted.

Both the alcohol and a substitute may be omitted if the liquid isn't

needed for a gravy or sauce.



When cooking with fish, an equal amount of bottled or fresh clam or fish

stock may be substituted. Just remember, bottled clam juice and some

fish stocks are high in salt. Some people use white grape juice with

fish.



Other substitutes include chicken or beef broth



Juice such as lemon, lime, apple or cranberry are all possibilities.



Reprinted from Fall 99 Issue Byerly's Bag





Doug B.





JOHN e REID wrote:



> The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA

> Around Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion.

>

> Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how

> much alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA

> Number 5" in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA".

>

> Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of

> fairly new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in

> the food, it is ALL cooked out!!!!"

>

> For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the

> results of that previous study?

>

> All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

>

> SPONSORED LINKS

>

Addiction recovery Recovery from Addiction recovery

program addiction center



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addiction recovery anonymous



> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

>

> + Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

>

> + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

> + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

> Service.

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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3030 Bill Lash
RE: Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/7/2006 8:37:00 AM


Does anyone know the name of this AA Grapevine article or when it was

published? Thanks.









-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of JOHN e REID

Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:00 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Alcohol left in food after cooking





The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA Around

Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion.



Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how much

alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA Number 5"

in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA".



Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of fairly

new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in the food, it

is ALL cooked out!!!!"



For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the results

of that previous study?



All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3031 ny-aa@att.net
DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/5/2006 11:37:00 PM


If we are going to discuss the distinction that is made between

"Alcohol Abuse [305]" and "Alcohol Depencence [303.9]" it is useful

to look at the diagnostic definitions in what is called "DSM-IV" or

"Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4"

Here are two references to those definitions.



Note: NIAAA (National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism)

only classifies "Alcohol Depencence" as "Alcoholism" The two

diagnoses are mutually exclusive.



----------------------

----------------------

http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/alcohol/diagnosis.shtml



Diagnosis



Friends and family members of the alcoholic are often the first to

notice problems and seek professional help. Many times, the alcoholic

does not realize the severity of the problem or denies it. Some signs

cannot go unnoticed, such as loss of a job, family problems, or citations

for driving under the influence of alcohol. Dependence is indicated by

symptoms such as withdrawal, injuries from accidents, or blackouts.



The American Psychiatric Association has developed strict criteria

for the clinical diagnosis of abuse and dependence. The Diagnostic

and Statistical Manual—IV (DSM-IV) defines abuse as:



* A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically

significant impairment or distress, as manifested by one (or more)

of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

1. recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major

role obligations at work, school, home (e.g., repeated absences or

poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related

absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; neglect of children

or household)

2. recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically

hazardous (e.g., driving an automobile or operating a machine when

impaired by substance use)

3. recurrent substance-related legal problems (e.g., arrests for

substance-related disorderly conduct)

4. continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent

social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects

of the substance (e.g., arguments with spouse about consequences of

intoxication, physical fights)

* The symptoms have never met the criteria for Substance Dependence

for this class of substances.



[DSM-IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4.

Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association (AMA). 1994.]



Most often, abuse is diagnosed in individuals who recently began using

alcohol. Over time, abuse may progress to dependence. However, some

alcohol users abuse alcohol for long periods without developing

dependence.



Dependence is suspected when alcohol use is accompanied by signs

of the following:



* Abuse

* Compulsive drinking behavior

* Tolerance

* Withdrawal



DSM-IV defines dependence as:



* A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically

significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more)

of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:

1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following:

o a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve

intoxication or desired effect

o markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount

of substance

2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:

o the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance

o the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve

or avoid withdrawal symptoms

3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer

period than was intended

4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down

or control substance use

5. a great deal of time is spent in activities to obtain the substance,

use the substance, or recover from its effects

6. important social, occupational or recreational activities are given

up or reduced because of substance use

7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a

persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is

likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance

(e.g., continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made

worse by alcohol consumption)



[DSM-IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4.

Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association (AMA). 1994.]



----------------------

----------------------

http://www.fpnotebook.com/PSY91.htm



# DSM-IV Alcohol Abuse (1 or more criteria for over 1 year)



1. Role Impairment (e.g. failed work or home obligations)

2. Hazardous use (e.g. Driving while intoxicated)

3. Legal problems related to alcohol use

4. Social or interpersonal problems due to alcohol



# DSM-IV Alcohol Dependence (3 criteria for over 1 year)



1. Tolerance (increased drinking to achieve same effect)

2. Alcohol Withdrawal signs or symptoms

3. Drinking more than intended

4. Unsuccessful attempts to cut down on use

5. Excessive time related to alcohol (obtaining, hangover)

6. Impaired social or work activities due to alcohol

7. Use despite physical or psychological consequences



# References



1. (1994) DSM-IV, APA, p. 181-3


0 -1 0 0
3032 Russ S
Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/5/2006 3:20:00 PM


Dear History Lovers,



I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. I would like to find

the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any

suggestions on where to start?



Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3033 Mitchell K.
Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/7/2006 6:15:00 PM


PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of

defining guideline for alcoholism one must remember

the following: The DSM does state that a person can

remain in total remission from alcohol dependence and

continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit the

criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence.

Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does not

define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the

criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous and

the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent.



From: Mitchell K. <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)



________________________



Note from the moderator:



Mitchell K. is one of our best AA historians, and an expert on the history of

early AA in the Cleveland area, where there were more AA members at one point in

early AA history than in either Akron or the New York area. He is responding

here to two earlier messages.



Message 2973 "Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates" from Ernest Kurtz

<kurtzern@umich.edu> (kurtzern at umich.edu)contained an interesting recent

study by social scientists of how people who have been treated for alcoholism

are doing 3 and 5 years afterwards, measured against how many AA meetings they

have been attending.



Message 3031 "DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism)" from

<ny-aa@att.net> (ny-aa at att.net) laid out one of the standard definitions of

alcoholism used by social scientists, in this case the one currently used by

psychiatrists and psychotherapists in the U.S. for diagnostic purposes, to help

understand how modern social scientists would determine which people in a group

whom they were studying were actually alcoholics. This can help us to understand

the kinds of criteria used in the study in Message 2973.



Mitchell K. in this present message <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) points out that NEITHER the social

scientists who made the 3 and 5 year study, NOR the psychiatrists who wrote the

DSM, were employing exactly the same kinds of definitions of "real alcoholism"

that are given in various places within the historic heritage of Alcoholics

Anonymous.



Mitchell's warning is important, and right on target.



The AAHistoryLovers is not the right kind of forum for attacking the social

scientists for not using AA definitions. We have worked hard over the years to

try to keep the AAHL from becoming just a chat group (there are already plenty

of AA chat groups on the internet).



Those members of the AAHL who are AA members simply need to remember that the

social scientists are not necessarily using AA definitions, as Mitchell K.

points out, and that any AA members reading articles written by social

scientists will need to take that into account in evaluating that data.



Glenn C. (moderator)


0 -1 0 0
3034 ArtSheehan
RE: James Houck and AA in Towson James Houck and AA in Towson 1/7/2006 7:02:00 PM


Unfortunately, I believe there is a much more serious and

disconcerting side to James H and his affiliation as the poster child

for the "Back to Basics" (B2B) organization.



B2B propagates revisionist AA history in a classic example of

manufacturing an idyllic scenario portraying the AA program of

Recovery in the "old days" and then manufacturing a contrasting

scenario bemoaning that "today" it's all different and has gone

downhill.



B2B engages in four practices that I find very troubling in that they

present fiction as history. The B2B practices are: (1) portrayal of

the figurative as the literal (2) broad brush portrayal of the

exception as the rule (3) portrayal of simple associations as

established cause and effect and (4) portrayal of James H's duration

of dry time to be the equivalent of his degree of accuracy and breadth

of knowledge.



B2B claims that AA is currently experiencing a 5% (or less) success

rate. This is supposedly in contrast to a 50% (they used to claim 75%

or 90%) "success rate" that AA allegedly enjoyed in the 1940s and 50s.

Their absurd assertion is unquestioningly being cited on web sites, in

literature, in academic papers and TV as established fact when it is

pure fiction.



The assertion that AA enjoyed 50%, 75% or 90% "success rates" in the

1940s and 50s is derived solely through selective semantic citation

(which is deficient in context) and is not statistically demonstrated.

There may have been some place at some time with that kind of success,

but to use it to paint a broad-brush overall projection of AA is

ridiculous.



Outside of a small number of instances, when AA was quite small, there

is no viable and verifiable body of records or statistics maintained

that would provide any type of reliable basis for stating any type of

overall AA "success rate." The same holds true today in terms of

asserting the erroneous 5% "success rate." The folks that make these

kinds of fatuous claims are driven by an agenda, not facts. All too

often, those making the claims do so as a disingenuous null hypothesis

that that someone else must disprove rather than them substantiating

their claims with factual evidence.



As a solution to their manufactured doom and gloom scenario, B2B

advocates the rather unremarkable hypothesis that Step choreography is

the determining factor in successful recovery. This is based on James

H's expert insight via the following gem of wisdom and experience on

B2B's web site:



"James provided Wally with three missing concepts from the "original"

program that allowed him to successfully "fly the plane." They were:

(1) the verbal Fourth Step (Moral Inventory), (2) the expanded Ninth

Step that included forgiveness as well as restitution, and (3) the

written Eleventh Step (Prayer and Meditation). He supplied Wally with

a four-page pamphlet, written in 1938 by a person who had attended

Oxford Group meetings with Dr. Bob Smith. This pamphlet, titled "How

to Listen to God," provided clear, concise directions on how to

conduct two-way prayer."



B2B first asserted that a verbal 4th Step should be done instead of a

written one. They later embellished this profound thesis with

suggesting the use of a particular "assets and liabilities list"

together with sponsor participation. This, along with a choreography

change to take the "forgiveness" the Big Book suggest doing in the 4th

Step and migrate it to the 9th Step (without passing GO or collecting

$200), and then squeeze in a little "quiet time" in the 11th Step

and, voila, your "success rates" soar from 5% to a 10-fold exponential

increase to %50% or higher.



To state that both the choreography and success rate fantasies are

built on meager threads is it putting it mildly. Even more meager are

any solid demonstration of facts. The notions are based on anecdotal

hearsay or the tortuous twisting of semantic nuance.



To give credence to this theater of the absurd, B2B has elevated and

shamelessly promoted James H to demigod status in terms of his

presumed qualifications to offer expert commentary on how AA and the

Oxford Group functioned 70 years ago. The sad fact is that quite a

number of AA members, who have no way of knowing any better, have been

swallowing it hook, line and sinker.



Over the years, the B2B web site has asserted some rather creatively

evolving "connections" that were supposed to have existed between

James H and Bill W (even a mention of Dr Bob).



The first was that "James attended Oxford Group meetings with Bill

Wilson in Frederick, MD from 1935-1937." James H lived in Maryland,

Bill W lived in NY (a mere 244 miles distant one-way today via

interstate highways).



During the great economic depression (which accounts for the latter

half of the 1930s) and during World War II (which accounts for the

beginning half of the 1940s) travel in the US was no simple matter,

even from Maryland to NY. I'm not sure whether B2B's use of the word

"together" is supposed to be interpreted to mean "at the same place,"

"at the same time" or both. In any event, it gives the impression that

James H and Bill W were frequently in contact with one another when I

don't believe any such thing actually occurred.



The next is a claim on B2B's web site that "Although James stayed in

the Oxford Group, he did have contact with the early A.A. fellowship

through Sam Shoemaker, a mutual friend of his and Bill Wilson's. Sam

Shoemaker was the rector of the Calvary Church in New York City, which

was the United States headquarters of the Oxford Group."



This probably took some real doing on James H's part in that Sam

Shoemaker left the Oxford Group in 1941 and evicted the Oxford Group

from Calvary Hall in NYC. So it would be interesting to find out just

how James H worked through Sam Shoemaker.



In response to a question of whether James H was a member of AA, the

answer was "Yes, he is as much a member of A.A. as anyone else who has

a desire to stop drinking. However, for James the compulsion to drink

was successfully removed on December 12, 1934. He has not had a drink

of alcohol or taken a mood altering substance (including nicotine)

since that day. ... James has an A.A. home group. It meets on Thursday

nights at the Towson, MD Methodist church."



In addition to the above is a statement that James H "was a member of

the Oxford Group in the 1930's and is a member of Moral Re-Armament

today."



So he has a home group where no one knows the "longest living" sober

member and he's a member of Moral Rearmament, which today is called

"Initiatives of Change" (perhaps James hadn't noticed). so it's

anything but clear how James H actually fits into the total picture.



In 1961, a book was published about a man named Ferdinand Waldo DeMara

Jr. The title of the book was "The Great Imposter." I can't help but

get the same sense that a similar book could be written about B2B and

James H.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob White

Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:07 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] James Houck and AA in Towson



I have been reading these entires with some mild amusement.



Having lived in the Towson area for most of my life (age 54) and

having been a grateful member of AA for over 25 years,

I know who this James H is but he is a non-entity to Baltimore or

Towson AA.



He does not go to meetings and the old timers don't know him (except

by the odd story about him).

I learned more about him from the Time Magazine article last year then

anything else.



I say God Bless him- but don't look to him for anything other than an

eccentric old fellow that has some interesting stories.



But he is no AA icon around here or anywhere else.



Rob W.



>>> glennccc@sbcglobal.net 1/3/2006 4:50 PM >>>

A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History

of Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA

meeting at Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which

was recently passed on to me.



James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by

certain people in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from

modern AA.



In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the

Oxford Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were

participating in their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is

no sign that he had any accurate inside information about how early AA

actually worked with alcoholics. All he would have known was what was

being said by the Oxford Group members who were hostile to the special

mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the early AA people out

of the Oxford Group. We already knew that.



What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about

James H.'s claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of

being an expert witness on the way modern AA operates. James says

that he has "spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences," which

means that Wally P. and others have taken him around to give talks to

AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of people does not

give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group

actually works with alcoholics.



James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the

Towson Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know

anything about how a real AA meeting would operate in the modern

period.



JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material

in the Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the

way Wally has been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck

to back up his own claims about the history of early AA. See

http://www.aabacktobasics.com/



In response to Wally's questioning in

http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsfo

rjamesh.html James Houck said:

______________________________



"Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA

program of the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group

program of the 1930's. AA has changed over the years -- today's

program is very different from the "original." For the past 20 years,

I have been speaking at AA meetings, workshopps and conventions about

the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety date is 12/12/34. I am

a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as did many

other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard,

Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with

alcoholics as well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my

granddaughter to AA meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already

changed. It wasn't anything like the original program. While I was

able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church.

There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I have spoken at

numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message

primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share

guidance with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement

home where I am living."

______________________________



When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of

Maryland, at Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in

Towson to see what that AA group was like, and to see how closely

connected James H. actually was to the AA program there. Are the

Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the United States?

Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he know

lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going

to regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson

AA accurate?



What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that

James H. has been making. Although James H. claims that he has

attended numerous AA meetings at the Towson United Methodist Church,

and is very familiar with the way their AA meetings function, JM could

not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even knew who James was.



He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group

which was doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of

people sober. It was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant,

ineffectual, and demoralized people who knew nothing about AA's

Historic Heritage, and who were achieving only a 1% to 3% success

rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know anything about

modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has been

getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA.



There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James

H.'s testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have

discovered needs to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply

going to give JM's report to Kurtz as he wrote it:



______________________________



Hi, Glenn!



Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James

Houck, authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking

my opinion about his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford

Group. In the past, I have read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an

authentic or accredited historian! I rely on my old friend, Ernie

Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the item along to

Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between the

claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure

in AA, yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD,

Methodist Church is emphasized.



I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in

Bethesda, MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all

of whom live in this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a

meeting of what Wally presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size

the old guy up in person, or at least learn a bit more first hand. On

receiving my report, Ernie feels you might find this information of

interest.



*********



Ernie!



I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to

"James Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in

a maiden voyage onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has

provided information, and I have joined, but I haven't figured the

interface out just yet. I might send the information I'm sending you

now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else on the list might

be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery, and I

should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the

nonsense.



I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on

Thursday, December 27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of

which 8 identified themselves as "home group members." Most of the

rest were young newcomers, as the meeting is a newcomers meeting,

rotating weekly through discussion of the first three Steps. There

were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works,

Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in

to give a 20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year

of sobriety, and one 17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and

that was it.



I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for

conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the

Back to Basics movement.



They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former

member until he recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the

group. He has apparently come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one

knew for sure.



They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was

asking about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative.



The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group

veteran who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know

something about all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to

Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw little utility to pursuing this matter

any more.



My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate

numbers cited for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own

extensive experience in traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is

clearly alive and well, at least in my own environment ....



That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after

Bill Wilson did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance

through the Oxford Movement, is a minor curiosity.



**********



I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you,

again, for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for

me. And I hope you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New

Year.



JM









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]















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0 -1 0 0
3035 ny-aa@att.net
Early Triennial Survey Reports (?) Early Triennial Survey Reports (?) 1/7/2006 8:30:00 PM


I have collected the Triennial A.A. Membership Survey pamphlets (P48)

from the 1983 "The A.A. Member" thru the "2004 Membership Survey."

I doubt any of you will be able to send me the actual pamphlets but

I would appreciate help getting the contents the 1968, 1971, 1974,

1977, and 1980 Triennial Survey results in whatever form is available.



For direct e-mail to me:

sendto:ny-aa@att.net

Thanks.

______________________

En2joy! Tom En2ger


0 -1 0 0
3036 Jon Markle
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 1/7/2006 8:54:00 PM


Thanks.



As a clinician, I measure the "problem" by NOT how much or how often a

person drinks, but rather, the consequences . . . What happens when alcohol is

taken into the body?



If there is significant disruption in any one area of a person's life (can we

say "unmanageable"? <GRIN>), then there is a problem.



A "heavy drinker" may function without any problems. Where as a very light or

occasional drinker (social?) may experience distinct difficulties that impacts

their life in negative ways, not attributable otherwise to any other thing than

the use of alcohol -- yet they continue to drink.



I believe the DSM-IV-TR is pretty clear about this definition and is not

dependent upon a specific "amount" or "frequency" as criteria for diagnosis.



This fits with your summary of the noted passages from the AA literature.



Jon Markle

Raleigh





> From: ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:21:14 -0600

> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates

>

> The chain of messages on the term "real alcoholic" seems to be

> straying away from history. There are certain terms that are likely

> best to avoid in this forum since they tend to lead far more to

> endless un-retractable debate over semantics rather than clarity.

> Among those tedious terms are "recovered vs recovering", "spiritual vs

> religious" and "real alcoholic vs problem drinker or vs whatever."

>

> Now having said that, let's try to provide a historical perspective

> that culminated in the 12&12 (1953) and originated in the Big Book

> (1935-1939). It is the matter of AA laying out the welcome mat for

> those prospects who were not low bottom drunks (as were the very early

> members).

>

> In the 12&12 essay on Step One (page 23) it states:

>

> "Alcoholics Anonymous," published when our membership was small, dealt

> with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate alcoholics tried A.A.,

> but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of

> hopelessness.

>

> It is a tremendous satisfaction to record that in the following years

> this changed. Alcoholics who still had their health, their families,

> their jobs, and even two cars in the garage, began to recognize their

> alcoholism. As this trend grew, they were joined by young people who

> were scarcely more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that

> last ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone

> through. Since Step One requires an admission that our lives have

> become unmanageable, how could people such as these take this Step?

>

> There are quite a few mentions of the term "real alcoholic" in the Big

> Book as noted below --[in brackets for emphasis]--

>

> Page 21: But what about the --[real alcoholic]--? He may start off as

> a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard

> drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose

> all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.

>

> Pages 23-24: The tragic truth is that if the man be a --[real

> alcoholic]--, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a

> certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a

> state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely

> no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically

> every case long before it is suspected.

>

> Page 30

>

> MOST OF us have been unwilling to admit we were --[real alcoholics]--.

> No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his

> fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers

> have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could

> drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will

> control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every

> abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing.

> Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.

>

> We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that

> we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion

> that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.

>

> We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control

> our drinking. We know that no --[real alcoholic]-- ever recovers

> control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but

> such intervals-usually brief-were inevitably followed by still less

> control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible

> demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type

> are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period

> we get worse, never better.

>

> Page 31: Despite all we can say, many who are --[real alcoholics]--

> are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of

> self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves

> exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is

> showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face

> and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we

> have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!

>

> Page 34: As we look back, we feel we had gone on drinking many years

> beyond the point where we could quit on our will power. If anyone

> questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try

> leaving liquor alone for one year. If he is a --[real alcoholic]-- and

> very far advanced, there is scant chance of success. In the early days

> of our drinking we occasionally remained sober for a year or more,

> becoming serious drinkers again later. Though you may be able to stop

> for a considerable period, you may yet be a potential alcoholic. We

> think few, to whom this book will appeal, can stay dry anything like a

> year. Some will be drunk the day after making their resolutions; most

> of them within a few weeks.

>

> Page 35: We told him what we knew of alcoholism and the answer we had

> found. He made a beginning. His family was re-assembled, and he began

> to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking.

> All went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life.

> To his consternation, he found himself drunk half a dozen times in

> rapid succession. On each of these occasions we worked with him,

> reviewing carefully what had happened. He agreed he was a --[real

> alcoholic]-- and in a serious condition. He knew he faced another trip

> to the asylum if he kept on. Moreover, he would lose his family for

> whom he had a deep affection.

>

> Page 92: If you are satisfied that he is a --[real alcoholic]--, begin

> to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your

> own experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first

> drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this

> stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss

> it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his

> own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his

> drinking, tell him that possibly he can-if he is not too alcoholic.

> But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little

> chance he can recover by himself.

>

> Page 109: Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is

> unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets

> entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is

> positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without

> your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he

> is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He

> is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like

> other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day

> also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious

> drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over

> the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately

> next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks

> of a --[real alcoholic]--. Perhaps he can still tend to business

> fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among

> ourselves, "He wants to want to stop."

>

> Cheers

> Arthur


0 -1 0 0
3037 Jim
Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" 1/8/2006 1:02:00 AM


"... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955."



This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and

various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine

until 1970. He died in January 1971.



The following articles were written in December 1955 and December

1970, respectively.



_____________________________



The Finest Gift of All

Christmas, 1955

Volume 12 Issue 7

December 1955



EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have

found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This

adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility.



What then are we going to do with this great gift of life?



Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know.

We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so

freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need

and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily

re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by

self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one receives."



For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift

of all.



Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be

the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever

known.



Bill W.



Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with

permission.



---------------------------------------------------------------



Christmas Message

Volume 27 Issue 7

December 1970



GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how

deeply we of AA realize this at Christmastime. Together, we count and

ponder our blessings of life, of service, of love.



In these distraught times, we have been enabled to find an

always-increasing measure of peace within ourselves. Together with all

here at AA's General Service Offices, Lois joins me in warmest

greetings to each and all of you, and me share our confident faith

that the year to come will be counted among the best that our

Fellowship has ever known.



Bill W.



Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1970). Reprinted with

permission.



---------------------------------------------------------------------



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@y...>

wrote:

>

If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally divorced AA in

1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID

NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal.

Its also what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin

B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism.


0 -1 0 0
3038 Bob McK.
RE: Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/8/2006 11:04:00 AM


I have saved an article titled "Food Science" published in Science News v.

136 11/11/89 reporting on the annual meeting of the American Dietetic

Association in Kansas City, MO. It states in part:



"Though simmering a pot roast at 185 deg.F for 2 1/2 hours removed 95% of

the red wine added, 25 minutes of baking at 375 deg.F retained 45% of the

dry sherry in scalloped oysters."



Other 'stics quoted are similar to the other article posted.


0 -1 0 0
3039 Liz Barrett, True Function of Virtue
Re: Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/8/2006 5:36:00 PM


Thank you for this information. Just FYI: This data was initially

established by FDA research; a study was subsequently published in

the April 1992 edition of the Journal of the American Dietetic

Association (JADA). I was able to find the citation on PubMed, but

JADA issues prior to 1993 are not available online. If anyone would

like to read the study at a library, the citation is: J Am Diet

Assoc. 1992 Apr;92(4):486-8. The authors are: Augustin J, Augustin

E, Cutrufelli RL, Hagen SR, Teitzel C. [Department of Food Science

and Toxicology, Food Research Center, Moscow, ID 83843.]





-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug B." <dougb@a...> wrote:

>

> I got this guide online:

> http://www.betterendings.org/Recipes/cookal.htm

>

>

> Cooking With Alcohol

>

> When cooking with beer or alcohol, does all of the alcohol

evaporate?

>

> No. The following chart should be helpful.

>

> PREPARATION METHOD / AlcoholRetained

>

> No heat application, immediate consumption 100%

>

> No heat application, overnight storage 70%

>

> Alcohol ingredient added to boiling liquid, and removed from heat

85%

>

> Flamed 75%

>

> Baked, approximately 25 minutes, alcohol ingredient

> on surface of mixture (not stirred in) 45%

>

> Baked/simmered, alcohol ingredient stirred into mixture

> 15 minutes / 40%

> 30 minutes / 35%

> 1 hour / 25%

> 1.5 hours / 20%

> 2 hours / 10%

> 2.5 hours / 5%

>

> source: Minnesota Nutrition Council Newsletter

>

> What can I substitute if a recipe calls for beverages with alcohol?

>

> The best, but not always the easiest solution, is to find another

recipe

> without alcohol that will fill the need. If the beer or wine is a

major

> ingredient in your recipe, or if a large quantity is called for, it

> makes sense not to attempt a substitute. The results could be

> unpleasant. In such a case, look for another recipe.

>

> Often the alcohol required will be a small amount, such as a

couple of

> tablespoons, and in this case there are several substitutions:

>

> In recipes having plenty of seasonings, plan water may be

substituted.

> Both the alcohol and a substitute may be omitted if the liquid

isn't

> needed for a gravy or sauce.

>

> When cooking with fish, an equal amount of bottled or fresh clam

or fish

> stock may be substituted. Just remember, bottled clam juice and

some

> fish stocks are high in salt. Some people use white grape juice

with

> fish.

>

> Other substitutes include chicken or beef broth

>

> Juice such as lemon, lime, apple or cranberry are all

possibilities.

>

> Reprinted from Fall 99 Issue Byerly's Bag

>

>

> Doug B.


0 -1 0 0
3040 Jon Markle
Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/8/2006 7:51:00 PM


That's a pretty wild claim.



Can you site the page and reference for this, please (using the DSM-IV-TR, which

is the most current edition).



I've always used the two books as mutually complementary. I have never found

any incongruence between the two approaches with diagnostics or treatment

approaches.



But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . . <GRIN>



Thanks,



Jon





> From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

> Reply-To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST)

> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence

> (Alcoholism)

>

> PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of

> defining guideline for alcoholism one must remember

> the following: The DSM does state that a person can

> remain in total remission from alcohol dependence and

> continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit the

> criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence.

> Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does not

> define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the

> criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous and

> the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent.

>

> From: Mitchell K. <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
3041 Tom Hickcox
Alcoholism and genetics Alcoholism and genetics 1/2/2006 5:09:00 PM


At 12:49 1/2/2006 , Dave Smith wrote:

____________________________



The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is

primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics

metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of

the population (in the United States,

____________________________



I have seen this assertion many times over these last two decades, but I have

never seen a citation from the scientific literature affirming it. Could

someone provide a citation?



Thanks for your post.



Tommy in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
3042 Larry
Sixth Tradition stories Sixth Tradition stories 1/5/2006 9:03:00 AM


Where might I find more about how the 6th Tradition of non-affiliation came to

pass. Some of those stories in the 12 & 12 are pretty

entertaining.



Bill W. says "...most alcoholics are bankrupt idealists."

Does that phrase pop up anyplace else? Thanks, Larry in NM.

_____________________________________



Tradition Six: "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A.

name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money,

property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose."


0 -1 0 0
3043 Rob White
NCADD and ASAM NCADD and ASAM 1/9/2006 4:13:00 PM


No doubt the misinformation they put out is confusing to some people.

However, AA cannot have an opinion on it.



On the other hand, NCADD (the national council on alcoholism and drug

dependence) http://www.ncadd.org and ASAM (the American Society of Addiction

Medicine) composed of physicians dedicated to the field of Addiction Medicine

http://www.asam.org are the two lead organizations regarding public education

and advocacy on alcoholism.



Their mission is to promote understanding of the illness and they have the most

scientifically reliable statistics.



I suggest wherever possible to direct people to their websites.



There will always be whirling dervishes. Best thing to do is - let 'em whirl!.



Rob W.



----------------------------------



>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 1/7/2006 7:02 PM >>>



Unfortunately, I believe there is a much more serious and

disconcerting side to James H and his affiliation as the poster child

for the "Back to Basics" (B2B) organization. B2B propagates revisionist AA

history in a classic example of manufacturing an idyllic scenario portraying the

AA program of Recovery in the "old days" and then manufacturing a contrasting

scenario bemoaning that "today" it's all different and has gone downhill ....


0 -1 0 0
3044 HJFree
Second Tradition (long and short) Second Tradition (long and short) 1/10/2006 10:22:00 PM


Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form?









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3045 dayatatime1950
genetic models for alcoholism - citations from scientific literature genetic models for alcoholism - citations from scientific literature 1/10/2006 11:23:00 PM


Hi All -



The scientific literature abounds with research results regarding

the desease models for alcoholism. You can find excellent reviews

of these results written for general audiences in two books (both

available from Amazon.com):



Under the Influence : A Guide to the Myths and Realities of

Alcoholism (Paperback)by Milam and Ketchum



and



Beyond the Influence : Understanding and Defeating Alcoholism -- by

Katherine Ketcham, et al; Paperback by Ketchum et. al.



The second book is fairly recent and covers information reported

since the first book came out in the late 1970s. Neither qualifies

as a citation from the scientific literature but both are well

researched and cite leading references.



If you have access to a university library you might look at:



M. Heilig and M. Egli "Models for Alcohol Dependence: A Clinical

Perspective" in "Drug Discovery Today: Disease Models" Vol 2, No.

4, 2005.



I can provide this article as a pdf file to any interested members of

this group. It contains 45 citations to recent scientific

publications and will be a good starting point for anyone interested

in delving into the (voluminous) primary scientific literature

covering this subject.



Regards,



Russ Hillard

<dayatatime1950@yahoo.com>

(dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
3046 mr.grassroots
Harper Brothers printing of A.A. Comes of Age ??? Harper Brothers printing of A.A. Comes of Age ??? 1/8/2006 11:29:00 PM


Hello!



Hope this finds all well with everyone -



Just wondering if anyone has any information concerning the 1957

Harper Brothers printing of Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age?



Particularly trying to find out the number of these Harper's printings

and any other information concerning this effort.



Thany You in advance for your efforts on this search -



All the Best to You and Yours -

mr.grassroots


0 -1 0 0
3047 jlobdell54
James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties 1/10/2006 10:08:00 AM


From Jared L., Susan K., Bill H., Cheryl F., and Tommy H. -- comments on James

Houck

______________________________



From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



Art,

While I hold no particular brief for James Houck and none for

BtoB, I should point out that Bill and Fitz did go to OG House Parties in MD

(including Frederick) certainly in 1935-36 and possibly 1936-1937.



But the trips they took began at Fitz's farm in Cumberstone,

and while Fitz's son remembered Bill coming down and Bill and Fitz

spending time together at the farm before they went off house-partying (Fitz Jr

was 13-14 at the time), to the best of his knowledge no one named James Houck

was ever at the house, nor did he ever hear the name.



He has vivid memories of Bill and Fitz playing fiddle and banjo

and singing in the parlor, with Bill singing Northern songs and Fitz

singing Southern songs.



He remembers Jim B and Jim's cousin Churchy --but no James Houck.



He could of course have attended House Parties where Bill and Fitz were present

-- probably did -- but not with them in any strong sense of the word with.



-- Jared Lobdell

______________________________



From: "Susan Krieger" <susank@qis.net> (susank at qis.net)



James Houck came into the Baltimore AA office about 15 years ago or so. I

don't remember the exact year. His grandson is a member of AA. He wanted to

post his sobriety anniversary and would have made his sobriety older than

1935 or the beginning of AA. He said that he attended the Oxford Group. He

may have just started at that time to attend our local meetings. We would

not list his sobriety date to be older than AA. He has listed his name a

couple of times. I have had several calls about who was he. No one in this

area knew JH. I was at a Convention where in a count down he took away being

the oldest member of AA from our well known members. When he was in the

Office I asked him if he had ever had a drinking problem. His answer to me

was "I had an honesty problem."

Susan K.

______________________________



From: billherold1017@aol.com (billherold1017 at aol.com)



My name is Bill H. from Area 29 Maryland.



As chairperson of the archives, I interviewed James Houck for ten hours. The

only real thing I got out of the interview is that he knew Bill W and Fitz

M. ( Our Southern Friend) from going to Oxford group meetings in Frederick,

Maryland. Bill would come down to Fitz's house outside of Annapolis and they

would

drive to Frederick, Maryland.



James Houck never mentioned a thing about being a recovering alcoholic in AA

and to my recollection of the tape, never attended AA His only claim to

fame is to be one of the only living people to know Bill and Fitz All he talked

about was the Oxford Group and he really did not have much real regard for AA.



Bill H

______________________________



From: "Cheryl F" <learning3legacies@cox.net> (learning3legacies at cox.net)



That friend of James Houck's is Wally and yes he is still alive and for what

it's worth there is a grievance file through GSO about those workshops.

______________________________



From: Tommy H. <recoveredbygrace@yahoo.com> (recoveredbygrace at yahoo.com)



Several years ago I attended Wally`s Back to the Basics one day

workshop in Wilmington,NC.



James H. could not appear in person, but he did

address the crowd of around 100 AA men and women by

teleconference from the rest home he is staying at. I have never heard

James say he was an active member of AA, but I have heard him say he had

spoke in numerous one day workshops hosted by Wally P. Those workshops

were mostly attended by AA`s. I have copies of several tapes of some of

those talks. Those talk were given in several formats, including a

Christian Walk thru the steps of AA.



James seemed more interested in teaching others about Two Way Prayer

then talking about AA .



Tommy H.


0 -1 0 0
3048 Rob
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/9/2006 7:02:00 AM


182 Clinton St

Brooklyn heights, NY



_______________________



In response to Message 3032



From: "Russ S" <bubba062701@earthlink.net>

Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006

Subject: Green Pond, NJ



Dear History Lovers,



I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.



I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to

Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?



Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ


0 -1 0 0
3049 trixiebellaa
Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 1/9/2006 8:50:00 AM


hi history lovers,



Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been

a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol

on his brain?"



One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of

information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the

chapters at the beginning of the book.



Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks from Tracy

The Barking Big Book Study Group

England


0 -1 0 0
3050 Jay Lawyer
Re: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 1/11/2006 11:16:00 AM


The thought and answer I come up with is 'because Henry P. wrote the chapter not

Bill.'



Jay





----- Original Message -----

From: trixiebellaa

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:50 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking





hi history lovers,



Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been

a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol

on his brain?"



One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of

information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the

chapters at the beginning of the book.



Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks from Tracy

The Barking Big Book Study Group

England





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3051 dayatatime1950
A better scientific citation regarding Genetics of Alcoholism A better scientific citation regarding Genetics of Alcoholism 1/11/2006 11:27:00 PM


Hi All -



I have had a lot of responses to my earlier posting regarding

scientific evidence of the genetics of alcoholism. As a result I have gone back

to the literature and looked for a more seminal publication with a more general

treatment. Truth be told, looking stuff up is kind of a hobby of mine.



Anyway, I have found:



"The genetics of alcoholism" Current Opinion in Genetics & Development, Volume

8, Issue 3, June 1998, Pages 282-286

Alison M Goate and Howard J Edenberg



Again, I can supply anyone who is interested with a pdf file of this

article if you will write to me direct at:



<dayatatime1950@yahoo.com> (dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com)



It is much more readable than the other article I cited

previously. In it the authors state "evidence from twin, adoption and family

stuides suggest alcoholism is a complex trait resulting from the action of

multiple interacting genes and the environment". They go on to describe efforts

to identify the specific genes that are associated with alcoholism in humans.

Some progress has been made

toward this goal.



Regards,



Russ Hillard


0 -1 0 0
3052 Mitchell K.
Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/14/2006 10:23:00 AM


Sorry it took so long to reply....

Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV -

TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page #

is the same): (DSM IV TR web link =

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm





Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for

at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no

CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met

(emphasis added)



Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if

none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been

met at any time during the period of 12 months or

longer (emphasis added)



The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not

drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria

for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA

is not about abstinence as a criteria.







Mitchell



> That's a pretty wild claim.

>

> Can you site the page and reference for this, please

> (using the DSM-IV-TR, which is the most current

> edition).

>

> I've always used the two books as mutually

> complementary. I have never found any incongruence

> between the two approaches with diagnostics or

> treatment approaches.

>

> But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . .

> <GRIN>

>

> Thanks,

>

> Jon

>

>

> > From: "Mitchell K."

> <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

> > Reply-To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST)

> > To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions:

> Abuse vs. Dependence

> > (Alcoholism)

> >

> > PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of

> > defining guideline for alcoholism one must

> remember

> > the following: The DSM does state that a person

> can

> > remain in total remission from alcohol dependence

> and

> > continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit

> the

> > criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence.

> > Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does

> not

> > define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the

> > criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous

> and

> > the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent.

> >

> > From: Mitchell K. <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

> > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3053 mertonmm3
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/11/2006 12:33:00 PM


Hi Russ,



In some photos of the Green Pond residence I can tell you that it is a

one story cottage and that in the early 90's it was painted white with

dark green trim. I was told by the photographer that it is in a gated

community and difficult to access without knowing someone who lives

there. As a first avenue of approach attending a meeting in

Newfoundland or the closest town you can find and stating your

objective would be a good approach. Failing that you could approach

the homeowner's association but I imagine they've been approached before.



Another method would be to go to the County seat and look in the

records book under Chrystal. This would probably be the owner's

surname. It was Horace's uncle who I believe first name was Frank.



Please keep me informed of your progress as this is a matter of great

interest to me.



-merton



Another met







- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rob <theyoukons@y...> wrote:

>

> 182 Clinton St

> Brooklyn heights, NY

>

> _______________________

>

> In response to Message 3032

>

> From: "Russ S" <bubba062701@e...>

> Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006

> Subject: Green Pond, NJ

>

> Dear History Lovers,

>

> I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.

>

> I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they

moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?

>

> Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ

>


0 -1 0 0
3054 ny-aa@att.net
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/11/2006 2:30:00 PM


The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W

and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street

without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their

period of "living around." Horace C loaned them his summer cottage

or bungalow. It got too cold that fall and they moved on.



"Pass it On" 215 ff

"Lois Remembers" 125


0 -1 0 0
3055 ny-aa@att.net
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/14/2006 12:21:00 AM


The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W

and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street

without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their

period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C

loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).

It got too cold that fall and they moved on.



"Pass it On" 215 ff

"Lois Remembers" 125



It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved

early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a

cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked

might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace

Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.


0 -1 0 0
3056 Robert Stonebraker
Where were the Wilsons'' living? Where were the Wilsons'' living? 1/12/2006 2:58:00 AM


Russ asked: “I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before

they moved to Stepping Stones”



Dear Russ,



Bill & Lois had to vacate there lovely home at 182 Clinton Street in

Brooklyn Hts. in April of 1939. Between then and moving into the Bedford

Hills residence they lived at nearly 50 places (P. 214 – Pass It On),

including the 24th Street Clubhouse. But at last,

in 1941, while living with friends in Chappaqua, NY, just north of the city,

they were offered, and accepted, the great deal on the Bedford Hills house

(Page 259 of “Pass It On” ).



When asked how they accomplished living so many different places, Bill

understated, “we were invited out to dinner a lot!”



The NJ Area Archives presented a great display at the Toronto International

Convention last year – this would be a great source of information for you.



Hope this helps,



Bob S. Indiana











Dear History Lovers,



I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.



I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to

Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?



Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3057 Cheryl F
alcohol content grapevine article alcohol content grapevine article 1/12/2006 5:49:00 PM


About Alcoholism - Alcoholism Information, Research, and Treatment

What's Not Cooking? Volume 47 Issue 3

August 1990





Many of these items are contrary to AA philosophy. Their publication here does

not mean that the Grapevine endorses or approves them; they are offered solely

for your information.



Don't blame Julia Child for leading you astray: We all were convinced that the

alcohol in the sherry she so liberally added to dishes would cook away, with

only the wine's flavor left behind. But now, it turns out, we can't have our

brandy and eat it too, because alcohol, as recent research reveals, has

tremendous staying power.



At the request of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, food scientist Evelyn A.

Augustin of Washington State University in Pullman, along with her husband, Jorg

A. Augustin of the Food Research Center at the University of Idaho in Moscow,

recently tested six recipes to determine the fate of the alcohol called for.

Their results, reported at the latest annual meeting of the American Dietetic

Association, were a big surprise to everyone. They found that the burgundy in

pot roast Milano, for example, doesn't completely disappear even after two and a

half hours of simmering on the stove; that a dish of scalloped oysters, baked at

375 degrees for 25 minutes, retains 45 percent of the alcohol in the dry sherry

used; that Grand Marnier sauce, which is removed from the heat when the

called-for liqueur is added, gets hot enough to lose only 15 percent of its

alcohol.



Especially surprising, though, was what happened--or didn't happen--to the

brandy in the cherries jubilee. The recipe calls for dark sweet cherries to be

mixed with corn-starch and heated in a chafing dish to thicken. One quarter of a

cup of brandy is then ignited in a separate pan and poured over the cherries.

But even this intense flaming process, the Augustins discovered, burned off no

more than 25 percent of the alcohol. They tested the recipe several times, and

on each try the flame died, while 75 percent of the alcohol survived.





Lears



Don't listen to the people in AA; Listen to the AA in people.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3058 whanny@aol.com
Henrietta Seiberling''s Children Henrietta Seiberling''s Children 1/11/2006 10:50:00 AM


Does anybody know if Henrietta Seiberling's children were present when Bill W &

Dr Bob met for the first time?



I've heard Bob Smith Jr say many times that he was the last person living who

was present on that day, but I thought that Henrietta had a couple of small

children.



Thanks,

Whanny



____________________________





From the moderator:



I heard Henrietta Seiberling's son speak at the National Archives Workshop at

Akron, Ohio, shortly before his death. Gail LaC., who started that series of

excellent annual workshops, could tell us the exact date.



Henrietta's son was a U.S. Representative, who went to Tip O'Neill and enlisted

his aid in getting approval from the Russians (via backdoor unofficial channels)

for AA people to come over and start the first AA groups in the Soviet Union.

That was an important part of the prehistory of the establishment of AA in

Russia, which is not usually known.



Dr. Bob's son Smitty, a really fine man, lived quite a few years longer than

Henrietta's son. I am sure that at the time you heard him say he was the last

survivor that this was in fact the case.



But I would be interested in anything the members of the group know about

Henrietta's children, because my only knowledge comes from hearing her son speak

that one time.



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
3059 Kimball
Re: Second Tradition (long and short) Second Tradition (long and short) 1/11/2006 6:57:00 PM


At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the same.

Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but trusted servants,

they do not govern" was redundant with the long form of tradition 9, that the

phrase be dropped from the long form of tradition 2.





----- Original Message -----

From: HJFree

Subject: Second Tradition (long and short)





Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form?


0 -1 0 0
3060 Mel Barger
Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children Henrietta Seiberling''s Children 1/14/2006 5:25:00 PM


Hi All,

As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One

daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other

daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son, former

Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in AA.

I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob met.

I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy

attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would have

been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long

Island.

Mel Barger


0 -1 0 0
3061 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/14/2006 12:55:00 PM


The correct name is Horace Chrystal.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3062 Tom Hickcox
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/14/2006 7:13:00 PM


At 23:21 1/13/2006 , ny-aa@att.net wrote:





//The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois

lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money

to pay for a moving van .... Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them

his summer cottage .... It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived

this long.//



Not so quick, here. I would note that my family's camp on Lake

Memphremagog in Northern Vermont was bought by my grandfather when my

mother, born in 1913, was a pre-schooler, and I can tell you it is still in

excellent shape as are many of the neighboring cottages of similar vintage. One

has to take care of them, but they are still very livable.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3063 ricktompkins
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/14/2006 11:31:00 PM


My family vacationed at Green Pond for generations, usually for weeks in the

summer, and from what a pre-teenager can remember, I recall that our various

rented cottages (bungalows) were built in the earliest quarter of the twentieth

century. Old stoves, attic fans, all wooden bungalows, etc. Green Pond is about

a mile long, shaped like a rectangle, with a large Lodge+Hotel at one end (that

building should still be standing, too, unless it burnt down since 1960...).

Most all of the cottages had no garages, just a driveway between them for cars.

Its US Post Office looked like something out of the wild west (plenty of fodder

for kids games), a small, single-room building that still had a horse hitch in

front of it.

There were many single-lot homes at the water's edge around the lake's

perimeter, and most likely are now part of the 'gated' community, of course with

updated homes.

The Lodge was a set of beautiful white Adirondack-style of buildings (think of

green painted Adirondack chairs around a long, curved veranda) but I also

remember it as unoccupied during the summers my family rented cottages there.

Other relatives had stayed at the Lodge in earlier times. It was one site of

many adventures that a 4 to 7-year old and his brothers could create...and Green

Pond was where my swimming got better and I grew to love bodies of water.

Probably foreshadowed my later love of bodies of distilled spirits!

If a summer cottage that Horace provided Lois and Bill that 1939 summer was

around the same location on Green Pond, "bungalow" is a fitting description of

something that my parents rented 15 years later.

rick t.



--- Original Message -----

From: ny-aa@att.net

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:21 PM

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Green Pond, NJ





The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W

and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street

without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their

period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C

loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).

It got too cold that fall and they moved on.



"Pass it On" 215 ff

"Lois Remembers" 125



It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved

early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a

cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked

might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace

Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3064 Jon Markle
Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/15/2006 12:02:00 AM


The entire diagnostic is about using the substance, alcohol.



The criteria you cite do not exclude the substance.



I venture to say this is one reason why untrained laypersons should not be using

clinical works to back up their arguments. Taking out of context, one can use

sentences from just about any form of literature to make it appear that the

entire volume says something quite the opposite of what is intended. Many

people do the same thing with the Big Book . . . <smile>.



Not only do I think your argument fails, in fact, I asked several

clinicians, some of which were responsible for writing the DSM-IV-TR, about this

question and they were incredulous that any accredited clinician would make such

a claim.



Jon Markle

Raleigh





> From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:23:20 -0800 (PST)

> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism)

>

> Sorry it took so long to reply....

> Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV -

> TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page #

> is the same): (DSM IV TR web link =

> http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm

>

>

> Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for

> at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no

> CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met

> (emphasis added)

>

> Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if

> none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been

> met at any time during the period of 12 months or

> longer (emphasis added)

>

> The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not

> drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria

> for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA

> is not about abstinence as a criteria.

>

>

>

> Mitchell


0 -1 0 0
3065 Bob McK.
RE: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children Henrietta Seiberling''s Children 1/15/2006 8:53:00 AM


John Seiberling's demise is news to me (the NE Ohio Area Archivist) and, I

think, to him. He spoke at the Sept. 25-27, 1998 Third Annual Nat'l AA Archives

Workshop and was very much alive in April 2002 when he received an award from

the Nat'l Park System. This copyright 2005 article speaks of him in the present

tense:



http://www.akronworldaffairs.org/newsletter/features/seiberling.html



Cursory Googleing shows nothing more recent and I am sure his demise would.



So rumors of his demise would seem to be greatly exaggerated <grin>.



___________________________



Bob,



Profuse apologies from the moderator for passing along some very inaccurate

information. I am glad, because I heard him speak in 1998, and he is a really

fine man, whom I greatly admire.



At least you and Mel B. caught my goof before John read it! As you said in your

Mark Twain quote in your last line, it would have been like the famous case

where Mark Twain (still very much alive) was amazed to read his own obituary in

a newspaper.



My wife Sue once said to me, "The problem with you, Glenn, is that you ARE right

93% of the time." I responded to her by saying, "No, the problem with me is the

other 7% of the time, where I end up being the last person to figure it out."



I always ask everyone in the fellowship (and also in the AAHistoryLovers) to

remember the 7% rule at all times when you're listening to me talk. Once more

it has been proved to be a valuable warning indeed (grin).



Glenn Chesnut


0 -1 0 0
3066 jlobdell54
Re: Long Form of Second Tradition Long Form of Second Tradition 1/15/2006 3:21:00 PM


I would be very interested to know where the recent contributor gained

the information that "Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do

not govern" is in the original (long) form of the Second Tradition, as

well as the original (long) form of the Ninth. On the Ninth there is

no doubt, but I really would like to see the evidence on the Second.

In the April 1946 Grapevine ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA

Tradition") the passage is not there. In "Traditions Stressed in

Memphis Talk" (October 1947 Grapevine) it is not there. In "Tradition

Two" (January 1948 Grapevine) it is not there. In the form in

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1958), which actually dates from

(roughly) 1950, it is not there. I have found no evidence for its

inclusion in Two until the so-called short form. In all these cases

mentioned (except of course for the write-up specifically on Tradition

Two), the phrase is in Tradition Nine, as we know. I am hoping this

contribution was not merely a guess. -- Jared Lobdell


0 -1 0 0
3067 ArtSheehan
RE: Second Tradition (long and short) - (and addenda) Second Tradition (long and short) - (and addenda) 1/15/2006 10:33:00 PM


The statement in message 3059 regarding Traditions 2 and 9 is

incorrect.



The long form of the second Tradition never contained any mention of

"Our leaders are but trusted servants - they do not govern." Also the

initial version of the long form of Tradition 9 did not contain the

term "they do not govern."



The April 1946 Grapevine contained an article by Bill W titled "Twelve

Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (re "Language of the Heart" pgs

20-24). The article provided AA with the initial version of the "long

form" of the Traditions. A December 1947 pamphlet titled "AA

Tradition" also contained the same wording.



Both the short and long form of the Traditions have undergone changes

from their original wording. Pinning down the dates when these changes

occurred is no trivial matter (and a bit exasperating to find source

reference details).



The original long form of Tradition 9 contained the ending statement

"All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service,

for true leaders in AA are but trusted and experienced servants of the

whole. They derive no real authority from their titles. Universal

respect is the key to their usefulness." This was later changed to add

"they do not govern" after " ... authority from their titles."



The November 1949 Grapevine contained the initial version of the

"short form" of the Traditions (re "Language of the Heart" article "A

Suggestion for Thanksgiving" pgs 95-96). The November 1949 Grapevine

issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the

forthcoming Cleveland Convention in 1950. The wording of the second

Tradition was expanded to include the sentence "Our leaders are but

trusted servants - they do not govern." (Note: "AA Comes of Age" pg

213, states that the short form was drafted in "1947 or thereabouts"-

it was more likely early 1949).



What caused this addition to the short form of Tradition 2 (and later

addition to the long form of Tradition 9)? I can only surmise. From

1946 on, after the first publication of the Traditions, there was

friction (it grew to be rather intense) between Bill W and the

Alcoholic Foundation Board Trustees regarding Bill's ideas for

establishment of the General Service Conference (re "AA Comes of Age"

pgs 208-214). Dr Bob was not very keen on the idea either. The

appearance of the "Our leaders are but trusted servants ..." sentence

in the short form may well have been a product of the friction but I

cannot confirm it with a direct source reference.



Two wording changes were subsequently made to the November 1949

version of the short form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual aim"

was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and "principles above

personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in

Tradition 12. However, the November 1949 wording of the short form of

the Traditions was adopted and adapted by Al-Anon Family Groups in

September 1952 (re "Lois Remembers" pgs .177-178).



The Traditions were approved at AA's 15th anniversary and 1st

International Convention which took place at Cleveland, OH from July

28-30, 1950. Bill W chronicled the proceedings in a September 1950

Grapevine article titled "We Came of Age" (re "The Language of the

Heart" pgs 117-124 also "AA Comes of Age" pg 213). The Traditions

meeting was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Bill W was asked to sum

up the Traditions for the attendees. He did not recite either the long

or short form. Instead, he paraphrased a variation of the long form.

Following Bill's summation, the attendees adopted the 12 Traditions

unanimously by standing vote.



I cannot as yet determine the specific points in time when the wording

changes to the short and long form of Traditions took place. I believe

it occurred with the publication of the 12&12 in 1953 but I need

access to a first printing 12&12 to confirm it.



If anyone can tell me the if the wording of Traditions 6 and 12 in a

first printing 12&12 is the same as they are today I'd be most

grateful. If that's the case, then today's wording (short and long

form) of the Traditions was Conference-approved in 1953 with the

publication of the 12&12.



The version of the long form of the Traditions as we know them today

appeared in an appendix to the second edition Big Book printed in

1955. One oddity, previously mentioned in the AAHL forum, was that the

2nd edition Big Book Traditions appendix initially contained the

wording of the short form as they were printed in the Grapevine in

November 1949. There has been no subsequent posting as yet to AAHL

saying in what printing the appendix was changed to reflect the short

form version as worded today.



One final bit of information - a number of members erroneously believe

that Tradition 3 once contained the word "honest" and that it was

removed from the Tradition by the Conference. It's not true. The word

"honest" never appeared in either the long or short form of Tradition

3. The term comes from the Foreword to the first edition Big Book and

was later included in the initial version of the AA Preamble in the

June 1947 Grapevine. It was the AA Preamble that was changed by the

Conference in 1958 to remove the word "honest." The way the Conference

Advisory Action was framed can give the erroneous impression that

Tradition 3 was changed.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimball

Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:58 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Second Tradition (long and short)



At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the

same. Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but

trusted servants, they do not govern" was redundant with the long form

of tradition 9, that the phrase be dropped from the long form of

tradition 2.





----- Original Message -----

From: HJFree

Subject: Second Tradition (long and short)





Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long

form?













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3068 Charlie Bishop Jr.
AA Corporations? AA Corporations? 1/17/2006 5:30:00 PM


Hi all: help needed on below:



//The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.;

the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.; and the Alcoholics

Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service organizations and corporations

whose purpose and existence is to serve the Fellowship. In effect, they are

temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and

Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or

body of AA members had the authority to form these three corporations? How

would they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on dismantling

or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for dismantling and

discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve Concepts, and who is given

the power to take this action in the Twelve Concepts?/



Thanks, servus, Charlie B.



"Charlie Bishop Jr." = <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3069 Charlie Bishop Jr.
The only AA censure motion? The only AA censure motion? 1/17/2006 5:33:00 PM


Hi all: more help needed:



//In the Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of A.A., 1951-2004

edition, p. 147, we read that in 1995 a recommendation that "the proposal to

censure the General Service Board" was "dismissed. (Trustees)." the censure

motion was signed by 10 GSC Delegates. What was the background for this censure

move? Was this censure motion a reaction to the change in the Charter on

Article 2?//



thanks all, servus, Charlie B.



"Charlie Bishop Jr." = <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3070 Charlie Bishop Jr.
AAWS legal attacks AAWS legal attacks 1/17/2006 5:41:00 PM


//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)



We went through a period a few years back when AAWS was going after anyone who

used the circle and triangle logo, and trying to sue them for trademark

infringement. This was defeated in the courts. One of the reasons was that

circle and triangle logos had been used for years by all sorts of organizations,

including some prohibitionist organizations in the period before AA came along.

This has all been discussed in detail in past messages in the AAHistoryLovers.



Recently I have had items (old books and pamphlets and memorabilia) which I had

put up for sale on eBay removed because of protests made to eBay by AAWS, simply

on the grounds that "AA" or "Alcoholics Anonymous" showed up somewhere on the

item, as part of a book title or somewhere on the item. Has anyone else had

items removed by eBay because of AAWS complaints? Please call or email me

directly if you have had this happen to you:



"Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net) phone

304.242.2937



I am trying to assemble enough material to work out a history of how this issue

has developed in AA.



Also, what information can the members of the group give me on cases where an

internet website or AA chat room has been threatened or removed by AAWS? What

is the history of this issue? Although the Big Book concordance issue seems to

be dead now, and is no longer being fought over, some of the earlier attacks by

AAWS were on concordances to the Big Book which were posted online, on the

grounds apparently of supposed copyright infringement.



Historically speaking, have there been issues other than claims of copyright

infringement involved in any of these attacks on websites and chat rooms?

Again, if you would call or email me directly, this would help me in writing the

historical article I am working on.



"Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net) phone

304.242.2937//



Thanks all, servus, Charlie B.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3071 Charlie Bishop Jr.
An AA apology? An AA apology? 1/17/2006 5:36:00 PM


Hi again...more help needed...



//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)

A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for

sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two

different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published

by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS

objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to

every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology

was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service

Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC

Final Report apologies or both? Thanks.



My email address is <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)



Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?//



Again thanks, servus, Charlie B.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3072 mertonmm3
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/18/2006 4:25:00 AM


Hi,



Yes, From my transcriptions of Lois diary the reference to Horace C.

was a reference to Horace Chystal or "Chrys" as Lois refered to him.

After living with the Parkhursts for a short time immediately after

leaving 182 Bill and Lois moved to the Greenpond bungalow. Although

Lois' diary made reference to "leaving Greenpond for good" keep in

mind that this was an unedited diary without the option of seeing into

future events. This bungalow was used many times over the next several

years by Bill and Lois, more than any other place. Lois did not know

she'd be returning when she wrote this first diary entry.



As of the early 1990's the bungalow was still there according to a

resident who spent considerable time tracking it down.



This is the most discussion I've seen to date regarding the Green Pond

bungalow. I have enough of a visual retention of the 20 or so photos I

once had to be able to identify it. Homes back then didn't all look

the same and the number of older homes in Greenpond was supposedly not

large.



Please advise,

-merton



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, ny-aa@a... wrote:

>

> The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W

> and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street

> without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their

> period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C

> loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).

> It got too cold that fall and they moved on.

>

> "Pass it On" 215 ff

> "Lois Remembers" 125

>

> It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved

> early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a

> cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked

> might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace

> Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.

>


0 -1 0 0
3073 James Flynn
100 Hundred Men & Women? 100 Hundred Men & Women? 1/17/2006 6:04:00 PM


I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a

statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories

in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at

the time the book was published.



Sincerely, Jim F.


0 -1 0 0
3074 greatcir@comcast.net>
Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children Henrietta Seiberling''s Children 1/17/2006 5:32:00 PM


On my visit to the Gate House in Akron last June I recall a framed printing in

the small library where Bill first met with Dr. Bob.



I think it says Henrietta's two daughters were home at the time and recalled a

tall thin man with big feet who reminded them of a movie star when Bill came to

meet and talk to Dr. Bob.



As I had heard Smitty (Dr. Bob's son) talk about being the last person alive who

was present when AA was formed, I asked the docent if the daughters were still

alive and she thought one was but she was not sure. The house is so small it's

had to imagine that Smitty and the girls did not play or talk with each other

while Bill & Bob had their infamous discussion thus it would seem Smitty knew

they were "present" too? Smitty and the two girls were probably close in age?



Pete Kopcsak



_______________________________



From the moderator:



Is it possible that this is partly a dispute over definitions? Are we talking

about the first time that Bill W. and Dr. Bob ever met, or are we talking about

the long period which followed that initial meeting, during which Bill stayed

with Dr. Bob and Anne, and they talked for hours every day about how to use this

new spiritual method for working with alcoholics?



The phrase "when AA was formed" could mean all sorts of things, depending on how

you defined it and what perspective you were looking from: (1) the first time

Bill W. and Dr. Bob met, (2) the period when Bill W. and Dr. Bob spent weeks at

Dr. Bob and Anne's house figuring out how they were going to put this program

together, (3) Dr. Bob's last drink after which he stayed sober to the end of his

life (celebrated at Founders Day), (4) the point when they brought Bill D. into

the program (which showed that they could teach it to other alcoholics),(5) the

time when AA split from the Oxford Group, (6) the date and place where the first

meeting was held which was called an "Alcoholics Anonymous meeting" (where

Clarence Snyder insisted that he was the one who did that in Cleveland), (7) the

point when "Alcoholics Anonymous" was chosen as the title of the book they were

writing, or (8) from an Akron perspective, the period when the early Akron AA

people were dropping by Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day and using that as

their center for regular fellowship (the period when a number of the famous

founders of AA in various places in the upper midwest were getting sober there).



All that to one side, if any of Henrietta's surviving children were actually

there at the time of Bill W. and Dr. Bob's first meeting, their memories of that

evening would be extremely valuable to record.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, USA)



----- Original Message -----

From: "Mel Barger" <melb@accesstoledo.com>

Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:25 PM

Subject: Henrietta Seiberling's Children





Hi All,

As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One

daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other

daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son, former

Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in AA.

I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob met.

I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy

attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would have

been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long

Island.



Mel Barger


0 -1 0 0
3075 mertonmm3
Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" 1/18/2006 4:51:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <adirondackseamus@y...>

wrote:

>

It was a reference to the handing over of AA from the co-founders to

the fellowship and the backdrop for the Convention and the term, "AA

Comes of Age". I didn't mean to convey that he abandoned AA at any

time. Perhaps "divorced" was too strong a term and therefore I stand

corrected. Instead, "he gave himself the space to approach the disease

from angles which were precluded to AA by Tradition" would be a more

accurate statement. (Step 10).



Thank you for pointing this out.



-merton

------------------------------------------------------------



> "... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955."

>

> This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and

> various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine

> until 1970. He died in January 1971.

>

> The following articles were written in December 1955 and December

> 1970, respectively.

>

> _____________________________

>

> The Finest Gift of All

> Christmas, 1955

> Volume 12 Issue 7

> December 1955

>

> EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have

> found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This

> adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility.

>

> What then are we going to do with this great gift of life?

>

> Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know.

> We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so

> freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need

> and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily

> re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by

> self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one receives."

>

> For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift

> of all.

>

> Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be

> the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever

> known.

>

> Bill W.

>

> Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with

> permission.

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Christmas Message

> Volume 27 Issue 7

> December 1970

>

> GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how

> deeply we of AA realize this at Christmastime. Together, we count and

> ponder our blessings of life, of service, of love.

>

> In these distraught times, we have been enabled to find an

> always-increasing measure of peace within ourselves. Together with all

> here at AA's General Service Offices, Lois joins me in warmest

> greetings to each and all of you, and me share our confident faith

> that the year to come will be counted among the best that our

> Fellowship has ever known.

>

> Bill W.

>

> Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1970). Reprinted with

> permission.

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@y...>

> wrote:

> >

> If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally

divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE

ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret

LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also what the enormous work

he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin B-3 and its effect on

Alcoholism.

>


0 -1 0 0
3076 Jim Blair
Re: An AA apology? An AA apology? 1/21/2006 3:43:00 PM


Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] An AA apology?

A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback

for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere,



IWS can not sell in Canada as the BB has separate Canadian copyright and it

did not expire in Canada.

Jim


0 -1 0 0
3077 Robert Stonebraker
Pronounciation of "Shoemaker" Pronounciation of "Shoemaker" 1/18/2006 8:21:00 AM


I have always pronounced Reverend Sam Shoemakers name as “Shoe – maker” just

as it is spelled. However, Clarence Snyder pronounces it as “Shoe – mocker.”

I would like to know the correct articulation. Any help would be

appreciated.



Bob S., from Indiana







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3078 Karen
Inscription on Dr. Bob''s Desk? Inscription on Dr. Bob''s Desk? 1/17/2006 10:25:00 PM


Someone sent me an email saying that he heard in Missouri that there

was an inscription on a desk plaque of Dr. Bob that says:



"The task ahead of us is never greater than the POWER behind us."



I have been unable to find anything that confirms this. I did find

several websites that quote what is on the plaque and it does not

include the quote from above. I also found a website of quotations

(http://www.gratefulness.org/mb/quotes.cfm) that credits Alcoholics

Anonymous with the following:



"The power behind us is never estimated greater [than] the force of

the task that is ahead of us."



Does anyone have any information about the source of these quotations?



Thanks,

Karen


0 -1 0 0
3079 wilfried antheunis
Re: An AA apology? An AA apology? 1/21/2006 4:44:00 PM


From THE FORTY - FIFTH ANNUAL MEETING OF THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE OF

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS



1995 FINAL REPORT







page (27) 28







A.A. WORLD SERVICES, INC.



"copyright were brought up under new business. It was felt the literature of

Alcoholics Anonymous belongs to A.A. as a whole and A.A.W.S. (US/Canada) holds

these copyrights in trust for all of us The committee recommended that A.A.W.S.

Inc should continue to grant exclusive licenses to one service structure per

country It was suggested that future W..M.s be kept aware of problems regarding

copyrights In A.A."



>>snip<<







Other Board Action



>>snip<<







Ann Warner, Gary Glynn and George Dorsey met with three representatives of

Intergroup World Services, Inc (IWS) in January 1995. It was a cordial meeting,

and although we did not always see eye to eye, there was an understanding on

some important issues After further communications following the meeting, an

understanding was reached and reported to delegates, alternate delegates.

intergrourp/central offices. overseas GSOs and World Service Meeting delegates







GSO/Staff Operations: The Financial Reports are >>snip<<







page 42



Reports from the A.A. Grapevine







Other Board Business:



. Technological Challenges- >>snip<<







. lWS-As a result of the meeting withIntergroup World Services (IWS) in January,

considerable progress has been made on an understanding and we are very

optimistic about the final outcome



>>snip<<







----- Original Message -----

From: Charlie Bishop Jr.

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:36 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] An AA apology?





Hi again...more help needed...



//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)

A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for

sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two

different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published

by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS

objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to

every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology

was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service

Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC

Final Report apologies or both? Thanks.



My email address is <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)



Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in

A.A.?//



Again thanks, servus, Charlie B.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













Yahoo! Groups Links

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3080 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re:J.H.Fitzhugh Mayo and James McCaleb Burwell J.H.Fitzhugh Mayo and James McCaleb Burwell 1/18/2006 11:09:00 AM


A couple of years ago I sat on a panel which included AAHL's Nancy O.and the

topic was discovering more about Fitz Mayo.The following are some of the

things I discovered when researching this topic.

Jimmy Burwell's sister was Marjorie and her husband was Churchill M.(not

Mayo) Churchill did not drink. His best friend was Fitz Mayo.Fitz, Jimmy and

Churchill all went to an Episcopal high school in Virginia .Jimmy and

Churchill both served overseas in WWI.Fitz did not serve (see his story"Our

Southern friend") because the war was over when he enlisted and he was sent

home.When Fitz was down on his luck(drunk) Churchill gave him land in

Cumberland Md

where Fitz built a house.Fitz had two wives. The first was Elizabeth who

became ill and was attended to by Lois Wilson. After she died, he married

Arabella.Fitz and both of his wives were visited several times by Bill and Lois

Wilson. Fitz did get into the service in WWII, until he got ill. He was

operated

on by Dr. Bob. He had a cancer and died 10/4/1943.

While Fitz was sober in NY he obviously heard about Jimmy's "problem".

Jimmy was staying at his mothers house and she was hiding his clothes so he

couldn't go out and get drunk.He had another AA member Jackie carry the message

to Jimmy. Jackie never had permanent sobriety and died of alcoholism.

Fitz was AA number 3 in New York and Jimmy was AA number 5 in New York.

Both got sober with the help of Bill W. Fitz believed in God ( his father was

an Episcopal minister) and Jimmy did not. ( see his story "The Vicious

Cycle") Jimmy coined the expression "God As We Understand Him", and started

AA

in Philadelphia(Feb 28,1940), Wilmington,De, Harrisburg, Pa. and helped in

Baltimore, Md.

Jimmy insisted along with Hank P for "Higher Powered" and a "Power

greater than ourselves" to be used. He was the salesman" Ed" described in the

Third Tradition. It is thought that Bill took some liberties with his story to

make a point.

At the first open meeting of AA in Philadelphia, Fitz as well as several

other New York members(including Mr. and Mrs Bill Wilson) made the trip. The

date was March 6, 1940 .Jimmy returned the favor by going to Washington D.C.

and helping Fitz get AA started there. Jimmy died Sept 8, 1974 and both He

and Fitz are buried just feet apart in the Christ Episcopal Church in

Owensville, Md.It is the same church that Fitz's father was a minister.

As an observation; They were so opposite and so alike. Both had the

tremendous drive and energy that was so characteristic of early members to stay

sober and to "pass it on" to others. Some of what I discussed is common

knowledge to history buff's,but since AAHl has members new to AA history I have

included it. I apologize for the repetition.



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike G.



p.s. Jimmy was known as "Jimmy of Philadelphia" and wrote a can opener

"Memoirs of Jimmy"







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3081 Bill Lash
RE: James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties 1/22/2006 7:28:00 AM


I think it's interesting the way that the group is going about "speculating"

James Houck & the things he has said & been a part of. It's almost as if he

were one of the first one hundred in AA (who are no longer alive) so we are ONLY

left with being able to study what they wrote & what they said on recordings, or

perhaps even what they said to others. But since James is still alive, wouldn't

it be better to simply contact him & ask questions of whatever is needed to be

clarified instead of reading into what he has said & making judgments of

scattered & incomplete information? So much criticism & accusation when a mere

phone call with a few questions to a wonderful man might just set the record

straight.



Just Love,



Barefoot Bill


0 -1 0 0
3082 mertonmm3
The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 1/22/2006 1:26:00 AM


bout a month ago Chuck P. (no known relationship to Hank P. at this

time) made available to me the 4 pages from the Sotheby's catelog

where the heavily annotated manuscript that was sold for well over

$1Million appeared. Having personally owned numerous handwritten

documents that were given to me by Hank's living relatives and viewed

numerous other of Hank's original documents at GSO, Stepping Stones

and Clarence's letters from Hank now housed at Brown University, I've

concluded (to my own satisfaction anyway) that except for the much

later dated page signed by Bill the vast majority of the commentary

was pened by Hank P.



Hank had 3 different styles of handwriting, one being block letters

(which I call H1) the second being a very neatly written style (which

I call H2 and somewhat rare) and third a rapid scribble (which I call

H3 and the most typical. On the bottom of several of the pages the

initials HGP appears (Hank's initials the G. standing for Giffen).



Also note that the well known Dr. Howard (See PIO) appears several

times and it seems very likely that this is the manuscript lent to Dr.

Howard for review. Dr. Howard was the individual who told them that

the book was all wrong and they must remove the "You musts" from the

book and replace it with more suggestive language. Note that my review

of the Montclair City Directory from 1937-1940 revealed no Dr. Howard

and its quite likely that this was a pseudonym. (also his first name

is unknown and he seems to have vanished from all historical accounts

of the era after the review). Jim Burwell says in his history

something to the effect that he was the head psychiatrist of New

Jersey, though I could not find such a position to have existed then.

Any doctor at the time of the writing of the book (other than Dr.

Silkworth) would be reluctant to attaching his name to this idea or book.



There are references to some of the material being "too groupy" and to

the Oxford Group explicitly demonstrating that there was a perception

that the book should avoid such appearence.(at least by Hank).



I,m not a handwriting expert but absent a great forgery I'm quite sure

of my analysis of the majority of the handwriting being that of Hank.

I've also only seen evidence regarding these 4 pages so it goes

without saying that I have no knowlege of what appears on any of the

other pages.



As always anyone should feel free to challenge any of this (preferably

having viewed the document or fascimiles in the above-referenced

auction catelog).



That such an extraorinary document should surface at this late date

demonstrates that their is still original material out there that

hasn't been noted by anyone.



All the Best,

-merton


0 -1 0 0
3083 Glenn Chesnut
God-shaped hole God-shaped hole 1/22/2006 5:04:00 PM


Messages 952, 954, 956, and 962 asked about the origins of the idea of "the

God-shaped hole in the human soul." I have written a piece about this which is

too long to post in the AAHistoryLovers, so I have posted it online elsewhere,

and will simply give a link to it here for those who might be interested.



In the language of AA spirituality, the only thing that will fill this painful

void is developing God-consciousness, the sense of God's presence, which Bill W.

talked about in the opening pages of the Big Book (see pages 1, 10 and 12-13).

He had experienced it as a young military officer while visiting Winchester

Cathedral, but had failed to realize its importance, and had turned away from

it.



Learning to develop God-consciousness was the central motif in much of the

evangelical theology of the early twentieth century. The meditative practice of

the Oxford Group's morning Quiet Time was designed in part to help us develop

this awareness of the constant presence of God's power and grace and love.



This kind of meditation was further developed in Richmond Walker's Twenty Four

Hours a Day, where Rich (the second most published early AA author) spoke of

entering the Divine Silence and the Eternal Now, where we learned to simply be

still and delight in the awareness of God's peace, and let it flow in and fill

our souls.



Emmet Fox, whose book Sermon on the Mount was a standard piece of recommended

reading among early AA people, showed us how we could use our awareness of God's

presence and power as a way to heal our souls and our lives when we found

ourselves embroiled in troubles of any kind, either in our external lives or

within our souls.**



But in this piece I talk about the ancient roots of the spiritual wisdom

contained in idea that human beings are creatures who must have God in their

lives in order to realize their full human potential:

http://hindsfoot.org/godsha.html



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

______________________________



As we see for example in a famous passage from Emmet Fox which is quoted in some

versions (like the Detroit version) of the set of four early AA beginners

lessons called the Table Mate or Table Leaders Guide:



**Emmet Fox, Staying on the Beam



"Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is

produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this

beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get

his bearings in any other way.



As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he

immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more.



Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which to

navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some sense

of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if outer

things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off the

beam you are in danger.



You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or

frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately

get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His

Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the

promises in the Bible are true today.



If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your own

feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will reach

port in safety.



Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you."









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3084 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Update about Fitz M.wives Update about Fitz M.wives 1/21/2006 12:48:00 PM


I received the following from Jared L.



"Hi! Shakey -- Thank you. A possible correction. Fitz and Libby were divorced in

1936-37, according to their son. Libby died, I believe, in 1984. Fitz married

Arabella in 1943, when he already knew he was dying of cancer. She died in

Westchester County NY in early 1972 (I think) at the age of 93 -- she was twenty

years older than Fitz or Libby, and I believe she rented rooms in DC (to Fitz

among others) when her husband was trying to recover. I have seen her name as

Arabella or as Ruth J.



-- J"



Thanks, Jared for the update,Sorry for any misinformation. My information was a

copy of an interview with a relative of Jimmy B. What is known is that Fitz had

2 wives .Can anyone else add to what is known about Fitz M?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3085 jlobdell54
Sam Shoemaker Sam Shoemaker 1/21/2006 6:19:00 PM


When I met him, I was introduced to him as Sam Shoemaker (not Shoe-

macher). That was not long before he died. Moreover, in

conversations with Episcopal clergy I have always heard him referred

to as Sam Shoemaker (not -macher). -- Jared Lobdell


0 -1 0 0
3086 Arkie Koehl
Re: 100 Hundred Men & Women? 100 Hundred Men & Women? 1/21/2006 4:57:00 PM


Message 3073 from James Flynn <jdf10487@yahoo.com> (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) said:



"I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a

statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories

in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at

the time the book was published."

______________________________



From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com> (arkie at arkoehl.com)



In my business, advertising, this is known as "acceptable puffery" and is

allowed by the Federal Trade Commission :-)



Arkie Koehl

______________________________



From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com> (mitchell_k_archivist at

yahoo.com)



There have been several stories circulating about that. One is that because the

AA members and their spouses attended gatherings together there were at least

100 people involved. Another story I was told by Ruth Hock was that Bill always

liked to make the story sound better than it was. It sounded much better to

round it off from 40-70 members to 100 members. I would think that there might

be more stories which will surface.

______________________________



From: "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)



Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which functioned as

one during most of the time) they began with one woman (Florence R. of Westfield

N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book Marty M., then a patient

of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2.



The reason for the inflationary numbers is twofold. 1) they included the wives,

and 2) they were lying.



They were trying to sell the idea of 1) a book that hadn't been written, 2)

about a cure to a disease that no one thought

of as a disease, 3) for which there was no known solution since the dawn of time

(contra - Jerry McAuley's Water Street Mission) to an audience which included

the richest oil trust's philanthropic people in the world (the Rockefeller

Foundation) and even more difficult, the members themselves and, 4) to sell

stock subscriptions in a company that had not yet been formed, for the

incredibly high price of $25 a share (with inflation I'm guessing today's = $400

- $ 500/sh.)



This was called "puffing" or "salesmanship"!!!



All the best,



-merton

______________________________



From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net jblair@videotron.ca > (jblair at videotron.ca)



It is a nice round number.



Jim

______________________________



From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com)



Hi all



Were they not referring to the first 100 drunks from the Oxford Group era?

Those drunks roaming around aimlessly until the title of the BB came to life?


0 -1 0 0
3087 robin_foote
AA & Cuba AA & Cuba 1/21/2006 9:40:00 PM


Cuba and AA Take First Step



By Mike Fuller



Havana, Jan 21 (Prensa Latina) After 13 years of spreading sobriety in Cuba,

Alcoholics Anonymous can now count on more support from State sectors to

save lives of people suffering from this incurable, progressive and lethal

disease.



Amid thundering applause at the opening of Alcoholics Anonymous first

National Convention in Cuba, Guillermo Barrientos of the Cuban Ministry of

Public Health said the door is open for cooperation between the State and

AA.



More than a decade in Cuba, the international self-help group has

experienced prodigious growth on this island, and health authorities here

are ready to extend a hand in the fight against alcoholism.



Barrientos, chief of the Operative Group for Mental Health and Addictions,

said to Prensa Latina "Alcoholism transcends the level of health, and must

enter other sectors like the Federation of Cuban Women, Committees for

Defense of the Revolution, Federation of Universities and NGO´s like

Alcoholics Anonymous."



"We started backwards," he explains, "with a public declaration, but now we

must define our relationship," and cited a pending meeting with the Ministry

of Justice to elaborate legal aspects. "We have to work on issues like

technology, training and community integration," he said.



The hundreds of alcoholics here in recovery with AA´s 12 Step program are

grateful their experience, hope and strength is being recognized.



Andy X, manager of the AA General Services Office said "It´s like a dream

come true."



But as the banner said at the event, the fight against alcoholism is most

important for those to come.


0 -1 0 0
3088 Gotogo2002L@aol.com
Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/21/2006 5:54:00 PM


Hi All



Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA

meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3089 Jim Blair
Re: An AA apology? An AA apology? 1/21/2006 9:51:00 PM


From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> (jblair at videotron.ca)



Charlie Bishop wrote:



"Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?"



I was at the Regional Forum in Burlington, VT. in '95 and "lawsuits" were

discussed at length.



Jim

______________________________



From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com)



Hi There.



Please let me know if you get the info...........what was the final result of

the paper back edition? Can we in the US have it also?

______________________________



Message 3071 from "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at

comcast.net)



//A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for

sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two

different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published

by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS

objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to

every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology

was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service

Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC

Final Report apologies or both? Thanks. My email address is

<bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)//

...

//Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?//


0 -1 0 0
3090 Tom Hickcox
Smitty and Smithy Smitty and Smithy 1/21/2006 9:25:00 PM


Didn't Bill call Dr. Bob "Smithy" and the son's nickname was "Smitty"?



Smitty/Smithy/Tommy in Baton Rouge <vbg>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3091 J. Carey Thomas
Circle and Triangle Circle and Triangle 1/22/2006 6:55:00 PM


Folks,

At an Aero show in Lantana, Florida, I observed a reconstruction

of a Civil Air Patrol (CAP on the fuselage) airplane used to spot

submarines off the Florida coast in the early 1940's. This plane had a

circle surrounding a (solid) triangle as the logo for this operation.

My informant wasn't sure of the exact dates these planes were

used, but agreed that it was early in the second world war.

In love of service,

_\|/_

(o o)

-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3092 Robert Stonebraker
4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? 1/22/2006 12:13:00 PM


Question on quote from Dr. Bob’s Nightmare



My first edition, 16th printing, Big Book states on page on page 192: "That

was June 10, 1935, and that was my last drink. As I write nearly six years

have passed."



Of course, the Big Book was written in 1938 & 39, so only “nearly four

years” would have passed when Dr. Bob wrote this article.



My second edition also states six years (p. 180), but my third and fourth

editions state four years (p. 180).



I thought that probably this mistake had been corrected when the third

edition was published in 1976, but my first edition, first printing, replica

from Anonymous Press states four years! So my question is this: Did the

original first printing of the first edition use the number four or six on

page 192?



Thank you for your research and answer.



Bob S., Richmond, IN











The "Anonymous press" first printing says 4 years

The first edition says 6 years

The second edition says 6 years!

The third edition says 4 years

The fourth edition says 4 years







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3093 Mel Barger
Re:Quote from Dr. Bob''s Nightmare Quote from Dr. Bob''s Nightmare 1/23/2006 2:20:00 PM


Hi Bob,



I have an original copy of the First Edition. It says, "As I write, nearly

four years have passed." It's obvious that somewhere along the line, when six

years had passed, somebody took the liberty of changing it. However, they went

back to four years in the 3rd and 4th editions.



Mel Barger


0 -1 0 0
3094 Mike Breedlove
Steering Committees at the Group level Steering Committees at the Group level 1/23/2006 7:09:00 PM


Greetings fellow AA History Lovers:



Could you please help me understand the origins of steering committees at

the group level? I checked the AAHistoryLovers archive of messages and got

several "hits" for steering committee, but the references are actually to

Intergroup or District Level Steering Committees, not to group steering

committees. Of course I could easily have missed something.



Does anyone have an idea of when the first group level steering committee

might have started, in which section of the country, and why? If anyone

knows anything about the history of how a steering committee started in

their town or city I would be interested in hearing about it, and would be

willing to compile that information for the list.



Please reply to me with any information you might have, and with any

documentation you might possess, to my email address, mikeb415@knology.net

(mikeb415 at knology.net),

not to the list as a whole.



This next question is a very broad one, and perhaps to some extent

unanswerable. Does anyone know if there is a steering committee being formed

very early and then changing its modus operandi when the traditons appeared.

Again, reply to me at my email address, mikeb415@knology.net (mikeb415 at

knology.net), not to the list.



Thanks very much for any assistance you might give.



Peace, Mike B., Prattville, Alabama


0 -1 0 0
3095 ricktompkins
Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 1/24/2006 9:30:00 PM


The "Printer's draft" manuscript of the Big Book was sold in June 2004 for 1.56

million dollars, through a telephone bid from California to the auction site in

NYC. Bill P. of Hazelden Press verified its authenticity at the time, after his

report of viewing the entire manuscript on what we know as our 'first 164

pages.' From what I have learned, this one manuscript was brought to Cornwall

Press in the Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in February

1939---the linotype operators made the galleys of Alcoholics Anonymous from this

draft.

$1.56 million is a great deal of private money, but I wonder if the artifact

will ever be shown to the general AA public. Such a shame! even the AA Archives

at GSO stayed away from the auction fracas, with AAWS having no opinion on this

outside issue: the fiscal speculation of AA archival items.

The manuscript was the property of Barry L., confidant of Lois and the writer of

AAWS' Living Sober in 1973. Lois gave it to him the mid-1970s and Barry's

grand-nephew put it up on the auction block last year

Honestly, I was saddened that the nephew never considered contributing it to the

AA Archives at GSO, even with its potential tax write-off.

In serenity,

Rick, Illinois


0 -1 0 0
3096 ArtSheehan
RE: AA Corporations? AA Corporations? 1/25/2006 1:46:00 PM


Hi Charlie



Your assertion about AA's corporate entities that "In effect, they are

temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown

away and Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist" seems a bit cavalier.

What I read in AA history and literature indicates very much the

contrary.



Given the Fellowship-wide "essential" service duties defined for these

corporations (GSB, AAWS, GV) in AA's Traditions and Concepts, it would

require approval of 75% of all known AA groups worldwide (in writing)

to alter the Traditions and Concepts to allow them to be "thrown away"

(see the last item in this posting).



The practice of forming an incorporated (or equivalent) General

Service Board, General Service Office, and corporate publishing

entities with a corresponding General Service Conference oversight,

has extended well beyond that of the US/Canada to numerous countries

overseas (I believe there are more than 50). If these were all "thrown

away" I doubt AA, as we know it, would long survive and would likely

dissolve into a number of factions. There are so many members with

intense, and intransigent, convictions on what AA "ought to be." Plus

the general nature of the prevailing public rhetoric these days is so

critically harsh and vitriolic toward opposing viewpoints, I really

couldn't imagine what "would still exist" that would be labeled

"Alcoholics Anonymous."



The AA Service Manual (which can be downloaded from the aa.org web

site) contains history and explanations of how the various AA

corporations came to be and how they function. There is also a concise

explanation in the pamphlet "The AA Group"(which can be downloaded

from aa.org web site as well).



First off, it would be useful to begin with the premise that the word

"corporation" is neither a bad word or a pejorative. Corporations are

the primary means for "separating the material from the spiritual."



Incorporation has been an integral part of AA since 1938 to establish

legal (i.e. lawful or official) entities that hold in trust all of

AA's assets in behalf of the entire Fellowship. Those assets include

literature inventories and copyrights, trademarks and logos and funds

from donations and literature sales.



Among the trademarks and logos held in trust are "AA" "Alcoholics

Anonymous" "The Big Book" "Box 4-5-9" "The Grapevine" "GV" "Box 1980"

and "La Vina" (you were seeking info on this in a different posting -

re the Service Manual, Chapter 10).



In Apr 1947, Bill W sent a paper to the Alcoholic Foundation titled

"Our AA General Service Center - The Alcoholic Foundation of

Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow." It outlined a history of the

Foundation and recommended implementation of a General Service

Conference. Bill W wrote



"In Part One of this Foundation story we saw how an informal group of

early AA's and their non-alcoholic friends banded together in 1938 to

spread the AA message as best they could; how this group formed The

Alcoholic Foundation, and how some of them became its first Trustees.

We saw how the Foundation helped Dr Bob and me through difficult

years; how the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and the AA Office came into

being and how, later, the Foundation acquired ownership of the AA

book. We observed that the Foundation was chosen by the Groups in

1941, as custodian of their voluntary contributions for the support of

the AA General Service Office at New York. We also have learned that,

more recently, the Foundation assumed a responsibility for

effectiveness and integrity of THE AA GRAPEVINE and that some time ago

the AA Groups designated the Foundation Trustees as the overseers of

our general public relations. Then early last year, on publication of

"The Alcoholics Anonymous Tradition - Twelve Points to Assure Our

Future," the Trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation were named the

Custodians of these traditions as well.



Such has been the gradual process of evolution and common consent by

which the Foundation Trustees have come to be regarded, first

nationally, and now internationally, as THE GENERAL SERVICE BOARD OF

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS - Custodians of AA Tradition, General Policy and

Headquarters Funds."



In the April 1946 Grapevine article, mentioned by Bill W, titled

"Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (which later became the

long form of the Traditions) Bill acknowledged the importance of the

corporate entities of the Alcoholic Foundation and Grapevine and what

was then called "AA General Headquarters and today called "GSO" [I've

truncated the wording for emphasis]:



4 ... no group, regional committee or individual should ever take any

action that might greatly affect AA as a whole without conferring with

the Trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation. On such issues our common

welfare is paramount.



6 Problems of money, property and authority may easily divert us from

our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any considerable

property of genuine use to AA should be separately incorporated and

managed, thus dividing the material from the spiritual ...



9 ... The trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation are, in effect, our

General Service Committee. They are the custodians of our AA tradition

and the receivers of voluntary AA contributions by which they maintain

AA General Headquarters and our General Secretary at New York. They

are authorized by the groups to handle our overall public relations

and they guarantee the integrity of our principal publication, The AA

Grapevine ...



In April 1962 the Conference approved the "Twelve Concepts for World

Service." Bill further acknowledges the importance of the corporate

entities in several of the long form Concepts:



III. As a traditional means of creating and maintaining a clearly

defined working relation between the groups, the Conference, the AA

General Service Board and its several service corporations, staffs,

committees and executives, and of thus insuring their effective

leadership, it is here suggested that we endow each of these elements

of world service with a traditional “Right of Decision.”



VI. On behalf of AA as a whole, our General Service Conference has the

principal responsibility for the maintenance of our world services,

and it traditionally has the final decision respecting large matters

of general policy and finance. But the Conference also recognizes that

the chief initiative and the active responsibility in most of these

matters should be exercised primarily by the Trustee members of the

Conference when they act among themselves as the General Service Board

of Alcoholics Anonymous.



VII. The Conference recognizes that the Charter and the Bylaws of the

General Service Board are legal instruments: that the Trustees are

thereby fully empowered to manage and conduct all of the world service

affairs of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is further understood that the

Conference Charter itself is not a legal document: that it relies

instead upon the force of tradition and the power of the AA purse for

its final effectiveness.



VIII. The Trustees of the General Service Board act in two primary

capacities: (a) With respect to the larger matters of over-all policy

and finance, they are the principal planners and administrators. They

and their primary committees directly manage these affairs. (b) But

with respect to our separately incorporated and constantly active

services, the relation of the Trustees is mainly that of full stock

ownership and of custodial oversight which they exercise through their

ability to elect all directors of these entities.



IX. Good service leaders, together with sound and appropriate methods

of choosing them, are at all levels indispensable for our future

functioning and safety. The primary world service leadership once

exercised by the founders of AA must necessarily be assumed by the

Trustees of the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous.



X. Every service responsibility should be matched by an equal service

authority—the scope of such authority to be always well defined

whether by tradition, by resolution, by specific job description or by

appropriate charters and bylaws.



XI. While the Trustees hold final responsibility for AA's world

service administration, they should always have the assistance of the

best possible standing committees, corporate service directors,

executives, staffs, and consultants. Therefore the composition of

these underlying committees and service boards, the personal

qualifications of their members, the manner of their induction into

service, the systems of their rotation, the way in which they are

related to each other, the special rights and duties of our

executives, staffs, and consultants, together with a proper basis for

the financial compensation of these special workers, will always be

matters for serious care and concern.



In Apr 1969 at the 19th General service Conference, Bob H, the newly

chosen general manager of GSO summarized AA's service structure and

the relationship of its parts “To sum up: the Board formulates policy;

the Conference approves policy; and GSO implements policy.”



The 1976 Conference (and prior Conferences) expanded a 1955 provision

of the Conference Charter to specify that any change to the Steps,

Traditions or Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of the General

Service Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of

the AA Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes any

change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a

virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma).



They are our "Three Legacies" of Recovery, Unity and Service, which

we are supposed to pass on - not "throw away."



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Bishop

Jr.

Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:30 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Corporations?



Hi all: help needed on below:



//The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World

Services, Inc.; the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous,

Inc.; and the Alcoholics Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service

organizations and corporations whose purpose and existence is to serve

the Fellowship. In effect, they are temporary, albeit long-lived,

committees which could all be thrown away and Alcoholics Anonymous

would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or body of AA

members had the authority to form these three corporations? How would

they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on

dismantling or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for

dismantling and discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve

Concepts, and who is given the power to take this action in the Twelve

Concepts?/



Thanks, servus, Charlie B.



"Charlie Bishop Jr." = <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at

comcast.net)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3097 Joe Nugent
RE: Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/26/2006 8:38:00 AM


Hi,

If the dance is being put on by AA not a problem.

Joe



_____



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gotogo2002L@aol.com

Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:54 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Announcing outside events during AA meetings





Hi All



Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA

meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











_____



YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3098 Corey Franks
Re: Smitty and Smithy Smitty and Smithy 1/26/2006 9:53:00 AM


HI.. Both Sue and Smitty Docs children told me many times that that was how they

were both addressed. Thats my additon here, THX. Corey F.



Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> wrote: Didn't Bill call Dr. Bob "Smithy" and

the son's nickname was "Smitty"?



Smitty/Smithy/Tommy in Baton Rouge <vbg>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











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Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.



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0 -1 0 0
3099 Mitchell K.
Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 1/26/2006 7:38:00 AM


From what I have learned, this

> one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the

> Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in

> February 1939---



Just a quick geographical correction. The Cornwall

Press was located in Cornwall, NY located in Orange

County, NY. The first edition printings were done

there as were several of the 2nd edition printings.

The company merged with another and from what I

understand, further printings were done in New Jersey.



When the galleys were gone over, it was done by Bill

W., Hank P., Ruth Hock and Dorothy Snyder who came up

to Cornwall to go over them.



As far as Barry's family giving anything to AAWS, due

to a history of problems, litigation and pending

litigation over royalties for Living Sober They had no

desire to give AAWS anything. There was a great deal

of animosity generated. I remember going over all the

drafts for Living Sober which were housed in a

friend's apartment in Connecticut. This friend had

many of Barry's materials as well as another friend's

materials which were left to him (Ron was involved

with many of the private recordings of Bill W. and

Bill speaking at his anniversaries in NYC - I think

close to 200 of them and left them to Dennis when he

passed on). I have no idea where these materials might

be today (I do have some guesses). Dennis was a

collector of AA memorabilia and had a small but

amazing collection. There were some great "spook", LSD

and vitamin B tapes but as I was only allowed to

listen to portions of them, not make copies or take

notes, unless they surface again, the material

contained in them might be lost.


0 -1 0 0
3100 jlobdell54
Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard 1/26/2006 8:19:00 AM


Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of

either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given

year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been

given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives

are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS

restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ"

I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane

at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park

Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell


0 -1 0 0
3101 Jim Blair
Re: Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/26/2006 11:38:00 AM


Gotogo asked



Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA

meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?



You can do or say whatever you want but just be prepared to deal with the

consequences.



AA Police #242


0 -1 0 0
3102 ArtSheehan
RE: Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/26/2006 1:17:00 PM


I'm not sure what your question has to do with AA history, but if you

are trying to find out if AA members can have diametrically opposed

viewpoints and all think they are right, it's a guaranteed certainty.



Alcoholics can announce whatever they want according to their group

conscience. Groups are autonomous - but autonomy should not be used as

a loophole to get around what the group members consider appropriate

in their understanding and practice of the Traditions.



Similarly, Alcoholics can decline to announce whatever they want

according to their group conscience. Minorities demonstrate unity when

they cooperate with the group conscience decisions of the majority.



Things can get a bit dicey, and divisive, when the Traditions are

viewed legalistically as opposed to being looked at as spiritual

principles oriented to maintaining group unity.



Many AA members like to keep announcements limited to activities

directly related to AA (e.g. a meetings, service committees,

conferences and conventions, etc.).



Just because something is attended by AA members it does not means

that it is an AA event. There is no such thing as an AA retreat, an AA

golf tournament, or an AA dance although AA members as certainly free

to join in such activities.



Of course, all the above is only one member's viewpoint.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

Gotogo2002L@aol.com

Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 9:54 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Announcing outside events during AA

meetings



Hi All



Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA

meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3103 ArtSheehan
RE: Smitty and Smithy Smitty and Smithy 1/26/2006 12:55:00 PM


Yes Bill W did use the nicknames "Smithy" and "Smitty" to distinguish

between father and son. Young Bob was still called "Smitty" up to the

time he passed away.



Incidentally, Dr Bob was supposed to have quite a sense of humor for

nicknames that he would come up with for others. Among the nicknames

he had for Sister Ignatia were "Little Angel AA" and "Ig." He also

liked to use jargon which would likely get him in politically

incorrect hot water today (i.e. he would refer to women as a "frail").



Cheers

Arthur



______________________________



To add to Arthur's list, J. D. H., the founder of the first AA group in Indiana,

says (in his memoirs which he wrote many years later) that when he got sober in

Akron and was over at Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day, Dr. Bob always called

him "Abercrombie."



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
3104 Mark Everett
RE:Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/26/2006 3:44:00 PM


Hi Friends,

While I think this issue has a questionable place on a forum on AA

History, it has everything to do with our traditions. Tradition 6, short

form states, "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A.

name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money,

property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose."

Now, if there is a charge for admission, an AA Dance or anything

else becomes an Outside Enterprise. If it is offered as free, then it could

be argued that it is not much more than an extension of the meeting, though

some may hold that it is still a violation of some other traditions. I have

also seen occasions where certain outside enterprises have offered "free" AA

activities with an underlying purpose of promoting their recovery store,

club, hospital or other services. That's called advertising, and we avoid

any appearance of promoting that, too.

I was taught to make any Related but still Non AA Announcements just

prior to the opening of a meeting, therefore these types of announcements

are not made at an AA meeting, and not appearing to be endorsed by AA



**************************************************

Mark Everett

517 Cherry Hill Lane

Lebanon, Ohio 45036-7608

Phone: (513) 228-0078

Cell: (513) 850-4911

eFax: (267) 851-2083

e-mail: mark@go-concepts.com

**************************************************


0 -1 0 0
3105 Mark Everett
RE: 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? 1/26/2006 4:04:00 PM


Hi all,

Boy, I love these types of things. I went looking through my

assorted collection of Big Books and found the following from Dr. Bob's

Nightmare.



First Edition, 9th and 12th printings - 6 years

Second Edition, 1st printing - 6 years

Third Edition, 1st, 5th and 7th printing - 6 years



and



Third Edition, 51st printing - 4 years

Third Edition (soft cover 8th printing - Sept 1988) referencing the 32nd

printing (also 1988) - 4 years

Fourth Edition, 1st and 8th printing - 4 years

Knockoff copy of "Original Manuscript" with notes from Clarence Snyder - 4

years





So, it appears to me that some editor, after the 7th printing of the 3rd

edition in 1980 and prior to September 1988, decided to do the math, and

returned Dr. Bob's story to a logical number of years. This is sort of like

the same mystery with "these" and "those" in the 12th step.



Enjoy

Mark



**************************************************

Mark Everett

517 Cherry Hill Lane

Lebanon, Ohio 45036-7608

Phone: (513) 228-0078

Cell: (513) 850-4911

eFax: (267) 851-2083

e-mail: mark@go-concepts.com

**************************************************


0 -1 0 0
3106 Emmanuel John
AAhistory AAhistory 1/26/2006 5:11:00 PM


Your question is one that I have dealt with a lot in my 21 years.



First of all we have our 1st tradition which states that our common welfare

should come before all else. Is this good for AA? It goes on to say that the

Unity of our members is the primary goal as disunity would tear us apart. The

nay-sayers are probably more of a force for disunity then the event could ever

be.



So does the event aid in unity? I personally believe that the founders would

have been very supportive of these types of events and announcements. In law

there is often the phrase, "the spirit of the law," why it was written. I don't

think that the tradition aims at limiting these types of activities



If our ultimate authority is a "loving God and how he will express himself" then

we could ask what He might consider on this issue, the dance is a good thing

despite people who are just down right negative. We're not supposed to have an

opinion on outside issues so what one group does is not the other groups

business unless if effects AA as a whole. This should then be discussed with

their local Intergroup office. Your dance could be considered by some as the

way "A loving God" is expressing Itself in your group.



Does it effect AA as a whole? Only for the better but we must be careful where

proceeds if any end up. AA bull roasts/dances are common fundraisers Just

like our conventions, gratitude breakfasts' which are also announced in

meetings. A group does however have the right to choose to not announce these

types of events by way of a vote.



Is it carrying the AA message? Most important of all, can people without money

attend without feeling singled out, or made to feel ashamed because they don't

have money (not so with many of our fundraisers). Admission should be set up in

such a way that it is seen as a donation and not an admission/ticket charge.

The have nots should be encouraged to attend.



Is it an outside enterprise? Well if it's in the same building and using the

group name then its not an outside event, if an autonomous group decided to put

the dance on then it is an extending activity of the group or a special

"lengthened" meeting



A major issue is that the monies collected in the basket during the meeting

should only go to purposes for which the money was given. A dance is probably

not an understood allocation for those having contributed. Now if your meeting

has the dance every month and everyone knows that this will be a use for the

money then that might be acceptable. I personally belong to a group that puts

on more events then most groups in the area and somehow we give more money to

Intergroup, with many other contributor meeting, meeting several times a week,

giving less.



Finally. I think that we have to consider if this makes the AA way of life more

attractive to the new comer who might think that we are a glum lot. People who

don't like these announcements are usually just not very fun to begin with.



Enjoy the dance!



Emmanuel

Baltimore





Message: 4

Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:54:03 EST

From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com

Subject: Announcing outside events during AA meetings



Hi All

Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA

meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







Peace & Happy Days

Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C



PRIVACY/CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This message is intended for the use of the

person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is

privileged and confidential, the disclosure of which is governed by 42CFR, Part

2, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPPA) and other

applicable Federal and State law. If the reader of this message is not the

intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the

intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution

or copying of this information is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received

this message in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the related

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0 -1 0 0
3107 Glenn Chesnut
Moderator out of town Fri-Mon Jan 27-30 Moderator out of town Fri-Mon Jan 27-30 1/26/2006 8:55:00 PM


I will be out of town from Friday January 27 to Monday January 30, 2006.



Please hold your messages until then.



Thanks much!



Glenn Chesnut

South Bend, Indiana







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3108 ArtSheehan
RE: 100 Hundred Men & Women? 100 Hundred Men & Women? 1/26/2006 2:55:00 PM jdf10487@yahoo.com > (jdf10487 at

yahoo.com) said:



"I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB

makes a statement about 100 men and women, when there are only

approximately 40 stories in the BB and by some accounts that I have

read a maximum of 70 members in AA at the time the book was

published."

______________________________


0 -1 0 0
3109 Cloydg
Trust God, Clean House, Help Others Trust God, Clean House, Help Others 1/26/2006 11:49:00 PM


Group,

One of my sponsee's asked me a question. I tried to find the answer as I

had thought it came from steps 6 and 7. Unfortunately, when I looked it up on

our reference pages. I still could not find the answer to this nagging

question. Maybe you can answer it for me?



Where did, "Trust God, Clean House, Help Others", come from? Is it in any

AA literature



In love and service, Clyde G.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3110 Diz Titcher
First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 1/26/2006 3:57:00 AM


The first woman was Jane S. in Akron and she beat Florence by one month.



Diz T.



______________________________



From: "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)



Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which

functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman

(Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book

Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2.

______________________________


0 -1 0 0
3111 ArtSheehan
RE: Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard 1/27/2006 1:01:00 AM


The 1999 General Service Conference passed the following Advisory

Action:



The annual limit contributed to the General Service Office from

individual A.A. members be increased from $1,000 to $2,000 and that

bequests from A.A. members should be subject to the same limit and be

on a one-time-only basis and not in perpetuity.



This seems to be focused on money donations.



The AA Archives are called the "General Service Office Archives" and

are one of the departments of the GSO (re the Service Manual pgs

S72-S73).



AA paid a hefty sum to purchase Dr Bob's Big Book from his son.

Archives fall into an area where, as collectors items, their monetary

value could be enormous. But there is also the historical value of the

items integral to the founding of AA which might very well take

precedence.



I suspect that if the manuscript were donated to AA the decision would

likely be up to the Conference on what to do and how to do it. I know

of deceased members who have bequeathed papers, books and other

assorted artifacts and memorabilia to the AA Archives. The collectors

value of the items would exceed $2,000 by orders of magnitude. So I

don't know if there is any notion of a cap on the monetary value.



Oh how I would love to find out, for certain, who "Dr Howard" was.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jlobdell54

Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:19 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Printer's Copy and Dr. Howard



Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of

either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given

year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been

given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives



are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS



restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ"



I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane



at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park

Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell

















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3112 Sally Brown
Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 1/27/2006 12:36:00 AM


How interesting to learn of another early AA woman!



Still another was Mary Campbell, from somewhere in the South, I believe.

Dave and I don't know her sobriety date or when she arrived in AA, but it

was before April 1939 when Marty Mann went from Blythewood to her first AA

meeting, held at the Wilsons' home in Brooklyn. Mary actually visited Marty

at Blythewood. She relapsed in 1944, then returned to AA and stayed sober

until she died in the 1990s.



Maybe there are other early regional examples.



Shalom - Sally



Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of

Mrs. Marty Mann

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics

Anonymous

United Church of Christ



www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Road, 309

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

Email: rev.sally@att.net


0 -1 0 0
3113 Glenn Chesnut
Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery 1/31/2006 2:47:00 PM


The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a

prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the

bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top.



The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the

handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have

been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed

on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed

pretty convincing to me.



But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in the

group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the

prescription?

______________________________



From: "Cheryl F" <learning3legacies@cox.net> (learning3legacies at cox.net)

Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:43pm

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Trust God, Clean House, Help Others



The saying came from Dr. Bob. It was written on one of Dr.Bob's prescription

pads. I've seen a copy of it in the archives.



Cheryl F

Leander Tx

______________________________



From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com)

Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Trust God, Clean House, Help Others



Ya might check this out....



http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html



Dr. Bob wrote this prescription- 1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others

______________________________









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3114 John S.
RE: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others Trust God, Clean House, Help Others 1/28/2006 9:00:00 PM


From: "John S." <quasso@mindspring.com> (quasso at mindspring.com)

Trust God, Clean House, Help Others



"The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." Pg 98 BB



The only other reference I've heard is Franklin W. from Olive Branch MS who

claimed authorship of the phrase "Trust God, Clean House and help others." Of

course the principle of helping others is all throughout our literature.



In love and service

John

______________________________



FROM THE MODERATOR:



The sentence on page 98 in the Big Book gives us two thirds of the phrase

("trust in God and clean house"), but the full phrase "Trust God, Clean House,

Help Others" does not show up in the Big Book in those precise words.



Members have written in showing that these words could be used as short

summaries of numerous things which are said in the Big Book.



But showing all the parallels in the Big Book to the basic teaching of this

little slogan does not, in and of itself, tell us who added "help others" to the

phrase on page 98 in the Big Book, and began popularizing it as an AA slogan.



Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

______________________________



From: Toto24522@aol.com (Toto24522 at aol.com)



Big Book page 164 A Vision for You



" ....... you must remember that your real reliance is always upon Him. (Trust

God)

Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is

still sick. ( Help others)

The answers will come, if your own house is in order. ( Clean House)

See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come

to pass for you and countless others."



"Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. (Trust God)

Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows.

Clear away the wreckage of your past. (Clean House)

Give freely of what you find and join us. ( Help Others)



"We shall be with you in the Fellowship

of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of

us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny.



May God bless you and keep you -- until then."



In simple form, the steps are:



1-3: Trust God

4-11: Clean House

12: Help Others

______________________________



From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)



Source of "clean house, trust God, help others":



For the basic ideas, see Big Book pages 14-15, 89, 90, 94, 97, 98, 132.



Also Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pages 56, 60, 63.



My own viewpoint:



Clean house:



Step 1 (of booze or forget about all the other Steps), then Steps 4

thru 10 (to clear away the obstacles we put in God's way and then

continue the housecleaning regularly with Step 10)



Trust in God:



Steps 2, 3, 6, 7, 11 (culminating in the regular practice of praying

only for knowledge of God's will and power to carry it out)



Help others:



Steps 8, 9 and 12 (in the spirit of the "golden rule" or "greatest

commandment" as my church calls it).



There are a number of places around the country that describe Steps

10, 11 and 12 as "maintenance Steps." Clean house, trust in God and

help others certainly is a nice concise description of these Steps

(sort of like Dr Bob reducing them all down to "love and service").



As for where the saying "clean house, trust in God and help others"

originated, my guess will be that several hundred locations will claim

it originated in their local area, and they will all be correct (rule

# 62).



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
3115 robin_foote
AA in India: arranging counselling for known offenders AA in India: arranging counselling for known offenders 1/29/2006 8:17:00 PM


Helping them kick the bottle



Staff Reporter





Alcoholics Anonymous arranges counselling for known offenders



CHENNAI - India: Alcoholics Anonymous, the liquor de-addiction support

group, will tie up with the city police to help repeat offenders kick the

bottle.



At a meeting held at the Zion Church in Chindatripet on Friday, Alcoholics

Anonymous invited a group of more than 100 known offenders and their

families and counselled on how life without liquor could change them. The

invitees even had a role model they aspire to become: a person who had a

history of criminal life but had reformed over the past two years.



The coordinator for the programme said the idea was for those present to

have someone to relate to. "He is someone they can relate to. He was a

repeated offender for over 10 years. He eventually gave up liquor and

reformed himself." The organisers said Police Commissioner R. Nataraj, who

was the chief guest, was so impressed with the idea that he even offered the

auditoria in three new police stations for conducting future meetings.



Representatives of Alcoholics Anonymous said de-addiction programmes and

support groups closely worked with police and prison authorities in the

United States for the past six decades. They hoped that similar programmes

would be possible in the future.



Tamil Nadu <http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/29/23hdline.htm> - Chennai

<http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2006012915490300.h

tm&date=2006/01/29/&prd=th&>

<http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2006012915490300.h

tm&date=2006/01/29/&prd=th&>



http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/29/stories/2006012915490300.htm



Copyright C 2006, The Hindu. Republication or redissemination of the

contents of this screen are expressly prohibited without the written consent

of The Hindu.























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3116 Shakey1aa@aol.com
1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 1/29/2006 4:42:00 PM


My sponsor told me about AA having a "statement of principles" in 1950. He

tells me they originally came out in 1948 but that no proof is obtainable from

New York. Does anyone know about this?



The statement of principles of 1948 is in Appendix G in Mitch K's book "How it

Worked."



Does anyone know why these were replaced by the 1950 statement of principles.

Do they give General Service more power?



Why does Royal S., the attorney who incorporated the Grapevine, on pg 199 say

the trustees suppressed the statement of 1948?



t/y Shakey Mike G.



Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)


0 -1 0 0
3117 mertonmm3
Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 1/29/2006 5:00:00 AM


Hi Rick,



As Stated in my original post this appears to be the draft edited by

Hank P. and Dr. Howard. It does not appear to be anything like a draft

that a publisher could work from and if you look closely at the 4

pages from the Sotheby's Catelog I think you will agree. Its quite

obviously an intermediate sort of draft as it doesn't remotely agree

with the finished product. Also as stated previously there are two

handwritten references to Dr. Howard and most of the handwriting is

Hank P.'s in my opinion. I disagee with the Sotheby assertion that

this is the final copy that went to Cornwall Press. This document is

far more significant historically. I am quite cautious with such an

assertion as their experts are quite meticulous.



Please look to what's available facimilewise rather than what

secondhand reporters tell us.



All the best!!



-merton



----------------------------------------------------------



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins"

<ricktompkins@c...> wrote:

>

> The "Printer's draft" manuscript of the Big Book was sold in June

2004 for 1.56 million dollars, through a telephone bid from California

to the auction site in NYC. Bill P. of Hazelden Press verified its

authenticity at the time, after his report of viewing the entire

manuscript on what we know as our 'first 164 pages.' From what I have

learned, this one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the

Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in February 1939---the

linotype operators made the galleys of Alcoholics Anonymous from this

draft.

> $1.56 million is a great deal of private money, but I wonder if the

artifact will ever be shown to the general AA public. Such a shame!

even the AA Archives at GSO stayed away from the auction fracas, with

AAWS having no opinion on this outside issue: the fiscal speculation

of AA archival items.

> The manuscript was the property of Barry L., confidant of Lois and

the writer of AAWS' Living Sober in 1973. Lois gave it to him the

mid-1970s and Barry's grand-nephew put it up on the auction block last

year

> Honestly, I was saddened that the nephew never considered

contributing it to the AA Archives at GSO, even with its potential tax

write-off.

> In serenity,

> Rick, Illinois

>


0 -1 0 0
3118 mr.grassroots
Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed 1/28/2006 10:13:00 PM


I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of

the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago but seem

to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing

since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.)



In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this

work? different printings? Total number printed?



Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in.


0 -1 0 0
3119 mertonmm3
Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard 1/29/2006 5:29:00 AM


The name Curry is extremely interesting as it was one of names

mentioned by Bill and Hank during their 2 week stock redemption

debate, as a creditor of Henry G. Parkhurst, Inc. (unincorporated in

reality)(the name Honor Dealers was not used in this discussion, Hank'

contention was that he was principally liable as the company bore his

namesake so he owned the furniture. Bill pointed out that as treasurer

, an officer, he was equally liable). One of the other creditors was

Sinclair Oil.



As I stated originally after reviewing the 4 pages from the Sotheby's

catelog its my very stong opinion that this wasn't a "publisher's

draft" but rather an intermittent draft and is mostly in Hank P's and

very likely the mysterious Dr. Howard's hand. The one page in Bill's

hand was written many years after publication. Hopefully more people

can view the photo fascimiles from the catelog to understand my point.



If there's anyone living in the Essex or Morris County area's please

check the various city directories for Dr. Marcus A. Curry.



Thank you jlobdell for this possible lead into identifying the elusive

Dr. Howard. Greystone Park yielded several very early members

including Morgan R., from Glen Ridge, who spoke on the radio about AA.



Source - documents in GSO Archives 1939-40 for unpublished yet Black

Sheep manuscript)



All the Best!!!

-merton



-----------------------------------------















--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@h...>

wrote:

>

> Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of

> either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given

> year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been

> given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives

> are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS

> restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ"

> I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane

> at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park

> Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell

>


0 -1 0 0
3120 Rich Foss
Sauerkraut remedy Sauerkraut remedy 1/28/2006 12:13:00 PM


An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice

treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with

replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our

literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob and

the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's

simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way

out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut.

Thanks.

Rich


0 -1 0 0
3121 David Jones
Change of terms Change of terms 1/30/2006 10:38:00 AM


Hi. Does any one know why the term ex-alcoholic was replaced with ex-problem

drinker in the big book.



God bless



Dave


0 -1 0 0
3122 John Pine
Ray O''K died Jan. 28th Ray O''K died Jan. 28th 1/27/2006 11:18:00 AM


FYI, an eloquent and influential member of the fellowship, Ray O'K., died in

Florida earlier this week and will be buried in Larchmont, NY on Saturday,

1/28. Here is a link to a newspaper obituary.

http://www.nyjnews.com/obituary/obit.php3?id=1912213



John P.

Richmond, VA





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3123 Soberholic
Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 1/28/2006 1:51:00 AM


Has anybody has ever brought up a question about the connection between the

theory of the enneagram and the 4th Step in 12x12? Does anyone know if Bill W.

was aware of the early enneagram movement?



In the theory of the enneagram, in the instinctual subtypes, each type also has

three main instinctual subtypes - the Self-Preservation, Sexual and Social

subtypes.



In the area of ego-fixations & the deadly sins, the Enneagram types have also

been correlated with the traditional Seven Deadly Sins plus two additional

descriptors - 'deceit' and 'fear'. The '7 sins + 2' need to be understood in a

much more specific meaning than usual."



Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram


0 -1 0 0
3124 Glenn Chesnut
National Archives Workshop National Archives Workshop 2/2/2006 1:52:00 PM


Because of the hurricane which struck New Orleans just

before the National Archives Workshop was to take place,

it has had to be rescheduled and relocated to another part

of Louisiana. We have had to miss a year, to allow these

new accommodations to be obtained, but everything is now

set up to hold the workshop in Baton Rouge.



10th Annual National Archives Workshop

September 14-17, 2006

Baton Rouge, Louisiana



Holiday Inn South

9940 Airline HiWay

Baton Rouge, Louisiana. 70816

(255) 924-7021 Fax: (225) 924-9816

Mention N.A.W. (by August 31, 2006) for $79.00 room rate.



http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/



Co-Chairs:



Jimmy H. phone 504-382-9286 or email

jhardingnola@cox.net (jhardingnola at cox.net)



Bobby B. phone 337-662-3402 or email

danieb@att.net (danieb at att.net)



__________________________________



Sent to us by: "Area64archives.org"

daggerrose@area64tnarchives.org (daggerrose at area64tnarchives.org)

http://area64tnarchives.org/1stquarter2006/index.html


0 -1 0 0
3125 j_oys5672
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed 2/1/2006 5:04:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mr.grassroots" <mr.grassroots@...>

wrote:

>

> I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of

> the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago but seem

> to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing

> since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.)

>

> In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this

> work? different printings? Total number printed?

>

> Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in.

>





Good Afternoon Mr. Grassroots





I would suggest contacting the Archives desk at the General Service Office in

New York.



They should be able to provide you with the information that you are seeking. I

believe it

should also be available in the 1957 Final Conference Report.





Thelr Ph. # is (212)-870-8700 , website www.aa.org





In Service





Jerry


0 -1 0 0
3126 Ernest Kurtz
Accident Accident 2/1/2006 4:58:00 PM


Friends (and a few others),



On Saturday, Jan. 28th, I suffered a serious accident that, though

non-fatal, will substantially lay me up for some time. Please do not

write of your sympapthy and concern, in which I trust. I came home

from the hospital to over 700 messages. I will reply according to my

ability and larger priorities.



Thank you for your consideration.



ernie kurtz



___________________________________



From the moderator:



Dr. Kurtz, a Harvard-trained historian, is the author of "Not God:

A History of Alcoholics Anonymous" and "The Spirituality of

Imperfection: Storytelling and the Search for Meaning."



He is widely recognized as the leading academic historian

in the field of AA history. A good history of the AA

movement in the 20th century will have to include a section

on his major ideas and contributions.



The title of his major book reminds us that we must first recognize

that we ourselves are NOT God before we will turn to the higher

power of the twelve step program (who is the REAL God) and

ask for help.



I do not have any information myself, beyond what appears in Ernie's

letter. If I learn more, I will let you know.



Glenn Chesnut


0 -1 0 0
3127 Peggy Anna
Re: Sauerkraut remedy Sauerkraut remedy 1/31/2006 5:26:00 PM


I have a book written in 1993 by Don Julio DeMedici Santaleone, entitled

"The James Connection or Sauerkraut, Tomatoes, and Karo Syrup" The author

has been a member of AA for over 20 years now and lives in Rochester, New

York. In his introduction he states "as related in Dr. Bob and the Good

Oldtimers (p 74) a detoxification treatment of a combination of tomatoes,

sauerkraut and Karo corn syrup was administered by Bill W. to Dr. Bob in

order to supply Bob with vitamins and energy so that Bob could perform

surgery".



Peggy Anna

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rich Foss" <richfoss@adelphia.net>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:13 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sauerkraut remedy





>

> An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice

> treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with

> replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our

> literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob

> and

> the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's

> simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way

> out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut.

> Thanks.

> Rich

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3128 James Bliss
Re: Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 1/31/2006 5:31:00 PM


From a quick research on the Eneagram, the theory was

not formulated until 1960 (the nine types), which means

that it had no association with the development of the

4th step. Please see:



http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp



It describes the various people in the wikipedia discussion

and what their theories were.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
3129 chesbayman56
Significant February dates in A.A. History Significant February dates in A.A. History 2/1/2006 10:23:00 AM


Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang.

Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill & sophomore class

suspended

Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from

professionalization.

Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use

in his practice.

Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts"

for "we ought" in the Big Book.

Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC.

Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in

pamphlet form for many years.

Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA.

Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is

published.

Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get

married.

Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner.

Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA

by Larry J.

Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died.

Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank

P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this

as happening Feb 13, 1937

Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition)

sobriety date.

Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W.

Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem,

NC.

Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was

born.

Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA

group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members.

Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two

years before, at a New York AA meeting.

Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the

right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases.

Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA

dies.

Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on

AA by Seymour Rothman.

Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to

tape the Big Book.

Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held

at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street.


0 -1 0 0
3130 ny-aa@att.net
Trust God, Clean House, Help Others Trust God, Clean House, Help Others 1/31/2006 5:09:00 PM


It was interesting that we are discussing the prescription to

"Trust God, Clean House, Help Others" at the time the phrase

appears in the obituary of Ray OK. It is a clever way to speak

of his A.A. membership without actually mentioning Alcoholics

Anonymous:



... Following the credo: “Trust God, Clean House

and Help Others“, Mr. [O'K] was active in many

organizations and fellowships. He was well known for

his work with the New York State Bar Association,

where he was Chairman of the Committee on Lawyer

Alcoholism. He also worked tirelessly on issues

relating to alcoholism in the legal profession

with the ABA and ILAA. ...



http://www.nyjnews.com/obituary/obit.php3?id=1912213

-----


0 -1 0 0
3131 Jim S.
Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/1/2006 2:30:00 PM


I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings and

sponsor, I have even checked the internet.



How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories instead

of in the main section (164 pgs)?



I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages.



Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, except that

Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't.



Thank you for being here,



Jim S/Pensacola, FL


0 -1 0 0
3132 ArtSheehan
RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/4/2006 5:54:00 PM


Hi Diz



As the eloquent John Wayne would have said "hold on there pilgrim."



The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the

legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob

and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered

up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to

attend a meeting.



I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated

with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date

(June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic

City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935).



"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date

through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA

in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making

the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same

time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241

later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large

steel company."



The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time"

[relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to

confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S

stayed sober for only a few months.



"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One

Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R,

at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't

also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that

that she had already fell off the wagon and departed?



The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter

part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of

the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the

book was published April 4, 1939).



Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I

got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She

then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript

versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was

several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in

her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?].



So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It

seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative

values denoted by "about" or "more than."



Is Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th

(that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the

difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)?



Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late

January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late

March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then

Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more

than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has

primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a

day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what?



So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed

dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly

about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the

elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then

by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a

founder.



However, it probably boils down to "truth by choice." In any event the

matter is not by any means certain.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Diz Titcher

Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:58 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First woman was Jane S., not Florence



The first woman was Jane S. in Akron and she beat Florence by one

month.



Diz T.



______________________________



From: "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)



Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which

functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman

(Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of

the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became

number 2.

______________________________





Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3133 ArtSheehan
RE: Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/3/2006 1:45:00 AM


Hi Jim



"Bill's Story" and "There is a Solution" were the first two chapters

written. They were used as examples to show what the book would be

like while it was being developed.



I don't think the early AA members shared your viewpoint about what

comprised "the important stuff" in the Big Book. Quite often members

will trumpet the "basic text" of the Big Book and give short-shrift to

the personal stories. The "basic text" very much suggests otherwise.



Also, in "AA Comes of Age" (pg 164) Bill W writes "We had not gone

much farther with the text of the book when it was evident that

something more was needed. There would have to be a story or case

history section. We would have to produce evidence in the form of

living proof, written testimonials of our membership itself. It was

felt also that the story section could identify us with the distant

reader in a way that the text itself might not."



Among the "important stuff" in the Big Book basic text there are 5

explicit references to the personal stories:



1 - Page 29:



"Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered.

These are followed by forty-three [forty-two in the 4th edition]

personal experiences. Each individual, in the personal stories,

describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way

he established his relationship with God. These give a fair cross

section of our membership and a clear-cut idea of what has actually

happened in their lives.



We hope no one will consider these self-revealing accounts in bad

taste. Our hope is that many alcoholic men and women, desperately in

need, will see these pages, and we believe that it is only by fully

disclosing ourselves and our problems that they will be persuaded to

say, "Yes, I am one of them too; I must have this thing."



2 - Page 50:



"In our personal stories you will find a wide variation in the way

each teller approaches and conceives of the Power which is greater

than himself. Whether we agree with a particular approach or

conception seems to make little difference. Experience has taught us

that these are matters about which, for our purpose, we need not be

worried. They are questions for each individual to settle for himself.



On one proposition, however, these men and women are strikingly

agreed. Every one of them has gained access to, and believes in, a

Power greater than himself. This Power has in each case accomplished

the miraculous, the humanly impossible. As a celebrated American

statesman put it, "Let's look at the record."



3 - Page 55:



"In this book you will read the experience of a man who thought he was

an atheist. His story is so interesting that some of it should be told

now. His change of heart was dramatic, convincing, and moving."



4 - Page 58 (a familiar reading at meetings):



"Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what

happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what

we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are

ready to take certain steps." [note: this was not written to be the

format of a speaker meeting - it was written to get the reader to read

the stories to find out what they had].



5 - Pages 112-113:



.. But after his next binge, ask him if he would really like to get

over drinking for good. Do not ask if he would do it for you or anyone

else. Just would he like to?



The chances are he would. Show him your copy of this book and tell him

what you have found out about alcoholism. Show him that as alcoholics,

the writers of the book understand. Tell him some of the interesting

stories you have read. If you think he will be shy of a spiritual

remedy, ask him to look at the chapter on alcoholism. Then perhaps he

will be interested enough to continue.



I've often wondered how those who purchase the abridged edition are

able to follow the instructions in the basic text without the material

that the basic text makes reference to.



"The Doctor's Opinion" by Dr Silkworth, started as page 1 in the 1st

edition Big Book. Dr Esther L Richards of John Hopkins Hospital in

Baltimore, was sent a copy of the first two chapters mentioned above.

She wrote to Bill that he should get a first rate medical view at the

beginning of the book.



So Bill W's story starts the numbered chapters and Dr Bob's story

starts the personal stories. Seems like a good fit for both our

co-founders. After all, Bill W was AA #1 and Dr Bob was AA #2. AA #3

didn't make it into the book until the 2nd edition (his discharge from

the hospital marked the start of AA's first group Akron #1).



The first page in the Big Book starts immediately after the front

cover. The last page ends immediately prior to the back cover. My

friendly appeal to you would be to consider the "important stuff" to

be everything that exists between those two covers. This way you get

your full money's worth. (rule #62)



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim S.

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 1:31 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and Dr. Bob





I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings and

sponsor, I have even checked the internet.



How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories instead

of in the main section (164 pgs)?



I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages.



Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, except

that

Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't.



Thank you for being here,



Jim S/Pensacola, FL



















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3134 ny-aa@att.net
Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/4/2006 12:21:00 AM


Doctor Bob's story is in the first part of the Big Book as well

as being the first chapter in the story section. It starts on

page 155 in "A vision for You." It has been talking about Bill's

"journey to a certain western city" when he needed to talk to

another alcoholic. Reference to "a certain resident of that town"

means Dr Bob. Then the story of AA Number three is introduced

on page 156 where he is "a first class alcoholic prospect."



BTW: When the Big Book was first published, did they ever say

that the stories weren't "important stuff" as implied here? :-)

When the Big Book said that a new prospect should "read this

book," it didn't say he should only read "part of this book."

I wonder when that trend to worshiping the first part while

dismissing the story part started happening.



"Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like,

what happened to us, and what we are like now -- but you don't

need to read those stories." Bah! It's time for a reality check.

They included "our personal adventures before and after" for

a good reason other than to make the book thicker.

____________________

En2joy! Tom En2ger



-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: "Jim S." <woodstock953@yahoo.com>

>

> I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings

> and sponsor, I have even checked the internet.

>

> How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories

> instead of in the main section (164 pgs)?

>

> I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages.

>

> Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit,

> except that Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't.

>

> Thank you for being here,

>

> Jim S/Pensacola, FL

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3135 Diz Titcher
Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/2/2006 3:50:00 PM


From: "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net> (rtitcher at comcast.net)



Bill wrote the book.

______________________________



From: jocis007@aol.com (jocis007 at aol.com)



They agreed that Bill's story would go first, and

Doctor Bob's story would be the finish. It was done

in such masterly form. Don't you agree?

______________________________



From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net> (snowlily at megalink.net)



My take on it is that Bob was a very low-key guy and focused on

Twelfth Step work and trying to keep Bill for franchising the

program in the first few years. If Dr. Bob had been the one to get

the message out to the world, it would have remained in Akron for a

very long time. I can find nothing that indicates that Bill did

anything unsavory to get his image the way it ended up. The Big Book

was approved by the entire membership at the time, so Dr. Bob must

have had a chance to speak up about just where his story was. I

actually see Bill as a much larger influence as to the formation of

the Fellowship than Dr. Bob. I think Bob's primary role was keeping

a lid on Bill grandiosity and serving as Bill's friend and

confidante.

lee

______________________________

From the moderator, Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)



Let's not over analyze and forget the obvious! There

are people who can sing beautifully but cannot play a

musical instrument. Their musical skills extend to

their mouths but not to their fingers, because it seems

to involve training a different part of the brain.



Dr. Bob was someone who could talk to you, and explain

to you orally what you had to do to get sober, better

than anybody else in early AA. But if you look at the

few things that he wrote, once you put a pen in his

hand, he kind of froze up, and what came out was kind

of wooden and not very well expressed.



There have been many people in AA since then who were

wonderful sponsors, and could stand up and give

marvelous leads, but were not good writers. We've

got a heck of a lot of good people like that.



But Bill W. was real writer. I don't know how he

managed to write all those hundreds of beautiful

letters to people. And if you look at "As Bill

Sees It," you can see how, even in the middle of

an ordinary little letter that he just tossed off

in a few minutes, there would often be buried

passages of profound spiritual wisdom.



You can't criticize other people for not having

that kind of extraordinary skill. And it would

have been foolish in the extreme to play silly

games and insist on all of the first forty AA's

being given exactly 4.1 pages to write in the

first 164 pages of the Big Book, no more, no less.



But this posed a problem when it came time to write

the Big Book. Bill W. certainly couldn't have

written Dr. Bob's story for him, that would have

been arrogant and rude. So he had to concentrate

in the book on the part that he had a right to talk

about, about Ebby's visit to him, and how the

scales fell from his eyes and he found the path

of healing for himself, when Ebby told him what

he had learned from the Oxford Group.



And then he gave Dr. Bob the place of honor at

the head of the story section, but kept the

part Dr. Bob had to write fairly small, so Dr.

Bob would be able to handle it.



It would be great if Dr. Bob had also had the

writing skills to explain exactly what he was

thinking and feeling when he and Bill W. first

met, oh boy would it be great, but he didn't

have those skills.



Nevertheless, when we put up pictures of the

founders, we give Bill W. and Dr. Bob equal

honor, with their portraits side by side.

That's the important symbolism. Nobody tries

to make the portrait of Bill W. bigger than

the portrait of Dr. Bob.



Let's just be grateful that we had several

people in early AA who did have remarkable

writing skills, like Bill W. and Richmond Walker

and Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and Ed Webster.

While also being grateful for the far greater

number of people who knew how to be effective

sponsors, and how to deal with suffering

alcoholics on a one on one basis. We needed

ALL of them in order for us to receive God's

grace in its fullness.



Along with the guy who shows up an hour in

advance of every meeting and unlocks the building

and makes the coffee, and says hello to you when

you walk in, and is GLAD to see you. And you

can count on him, and you know he's going to be

there. And when you're hurting, he saves your

life too, just as much as the others.



In a little piece called the Tools of Recovery

(http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html) which is often

read at meetings in my part of Indiana, the sixth

tool is Service, and it says simply, "Service

helps our personal program grow. Service is

giving in A.A. Service is leading a meeting,

making coffee, moving chairs, being a sponsor,

or emptying ashtrays. Service is action, and

action is the magic word in this program."



When I make coffee for a meeting, or help

move chairs, or empty ashtrays, I do not regard

it as a lower and inferior kind of service work.

I do everything on that little list in the

Tools of Recovery, and everything else that

people ask me to do. All service is of equal

honor in the eyes of God. I don't go around

giving leads as a conference speaker on a

regular basis because there are people in the

program far more talented than I am in that

area. My own story really isn't very interesting.

But I treasure and honor the people we have who

DO have good stories, and ARE good at giving

leads in front of big conferences.



Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), the Catholic

priest from Indiana, found that because the

Catholic Church in those days required priests

to wear clerical collars at all times, that he

couldn't do a good job of making twelve step

calls. All alcoholics could see was his

clerical collar, and they couldn't identify

with him, and they found it very threatening

and frightening. He desperately wanted to do

something which would be of service to his

fellow alcoholics, and finally turned to leading

weekend spiritual retreats and then to writing

his Golden Books, not because he thought that

being a writer was more important or more

glamorous, but because it was the only kind of

service work that he seemed to be any good at!


0 -1 0 0
3136 ckbudnick
California Bill California Bill 2/3/2006 2:01:00 PM


In Message 3129, "Significant February dates in A.A. History "

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3129

it says:



Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill"

dies in Winston Salem, NC.



Who was William Y. "California Bill" and what is his

significance in AA history?



Thanks.



Chris

Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
3137 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Pat McC - Philadelphia longtimer Pat McC - Philadelphia longtimer 2/3/2006 9:16:00 AM


Pat McC. of Audubon, NJ, formerly of Yeadon, Pa. died Feb 1st with 57 years

of sobriety. He came in thru the 4021 clubhouse and was going to be one of

the 5 longtime speakers on Sunday 3/12/06 3 P.M. when the club will celebrate

their 60th anniversary.Another AA who showed us that long term sobriety is

possible a day at a time with the help of a Higher Power and following the

suggestions of our program.

Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike G.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3138 Gene
From We Agnostics..Professor Langley From We Agnostics..Professor Langley 2/3/2006 2:44:00 PM


As part of my continuing project to share esoteric refrences in the

Big Book from Bill W's idiom of the time...(1930's)

I'm sending this about the refrence to professor Langley's flying

machine Chapter 4, Page 51; We Agnostics.

"Professor Langley's airplane sank in the Potomic River".....



From We Agnostics, (P 51 Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous)



Bill W. was moved by the story of a man's dreams and the ridicule of

the press and the fact that a man could eventually fly.



Samuel Pierpont Langley

Samuel Pierpont Langley (1834 - 1906) is often used as a contrast to

the Wrights. Unlike the two brothers, Langley was highly-educated and

had more than ample funding in support of his efforts to develop an

airplane. His stature at Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution

lent great credibility to his efforts to build an airplane, as did

his success with the unmanned aerodromes. In particular, his

Aerodrome No. 6 flew 4,200 feet at about 30 mph on November 28, 1896.

This unmanned tandem-wing craft employed a lightweight steam engine

for propulsion. The wings were set at a distinct dihedral angle so

that the craft was dynamically stable, capable of righting itself

when disturbed by a sideways breeze. There was no method of steering

this craft, nor would it have been easy to add any means to control

the direction the craft flew.

From the success of No. 6, Langley was able to convince the War

Department (a.k.a. Department of Defense) to contribute $50,000

toward the development of a person-carrying machine. The Smithsonian

contributed a like sum towards Langley's efforts. Charles Manley

developed an extraordinary radial-cylinder internal combustion engine

that developed 52 horsepower for the man-carrying Great Aerodrome.

Langley felt it would be safest to fly over water, so he spent almost

half of his funds constructing a houseboat with a catapult that would

be capable of launching his new craft.

The Great Aerodrome might have flown if Langley had chosen a more

traditional means of launching the craft from the ground. The pilot

still would have lacked any means of steering the plane, and so faced

dangers aplenty. But it might have at least gotten into the air.

Unfortunately, Langley chose to stick with his 'tried-and-true'

approach of catapult launches. The plane had to go from a dead stop

to the 60 m.p.h. flying speed in only 70 feet. The stress of the

catapult launch was far greater than the flimsy wood-and-fabric

airplane could stand. The front wing was badly damaged in the first

launch of October 7, 1903. A reporter who witnessed the event claimed

it flew "like a handful of mortar." Things went even worse during the

second launch of December 9, 1903, where the rear wing and tail

completely collapsed during launch. Charles Manley nearly drowned

before he could be rescued from the wreckage and the ice-covered

Potomac river.

Needless to say, the Washington critics had a field day. The Brooklyn

Eagle quoted Representative Hitchcock as saying, "You tell Langley

for me ... that the only thing he ever made fly was Government

money." Representative Robinson characterized Langley as "a

professor ... wandering in his dreams of flight ... who was given to

building ... castles in the air."

The War Department, in its final report on the Langley project,

concluded "we are still far from the ultimate goal, and it would seem

as if years of constant work and study by experts, together with the

expenditure of thousands of dollars, would still be necessary before

we can hope to produce an apparatus of practical utility on these

lines." Eight days after Langley's spectacular failure, a sturdy,

well-designed craft, costing about $1000, struggled into the air in

Kitty Hawk, defining for all time the moment when humankind mastered

the skies.

In spite of 18 years of well-funded and concerted effort by Langley

to achieve immortality, his singular contribution to the invention of

the airplane was the pair of 30-lb aerodromes that flew in 1914.. He

died in 1906 after a series of strokes, a broken and disappointed man.





More>>>>



----------------------------------------------------------------------

(photo)



A very short history of the airplane.

Professor Langley was a respected astronomer. He invented the

bolometer, an instrument that measures small amounts of microwave or

infared radiation by detecting changes in electrical resistance on a

thin heat sensitive metal conductor. (This will be on the test) His

name lives on in a unit of energy flux. At the end of the 19th

Century he was head of the Smithsonian Institute, which in those days

was a serious scientific organization. He started to experiment with

model airplanes. These experiments culminated in a couple of Steam

Models that earned him a permanent place in pre Wright Brothers

aviation.

These successes lead to his being asked by the Department of War to

construct a man carrying air craft. It didn't fly. Twice the

Aerodrome, as he called it, was catapulted off the roof of a house

boat and twice it fell into the Potomac river "Like a handful of wet

mortar." Soon after he died, some say broken by the ridicule with

which the press treated the event. And the airplane languished in the

Smithsonian.

In the meantime the Wright Brothers flew, and patented, their

airplane. They were quite aggressive about pursuing what they

considered violations of this patent, and set American aviation back

by years. Glen Curtiss was one of the individuals who wanted to avoid

paying the Wright's considerable royalties and he embarked on a

series of lawsuits that was to drag on for years.

In about 1914, in an effort to show that the Wright Brothers didn't

make the first airplane capable of flight he approached the

Smithsonian with an offer to see if he could make the remains of the

Aerodrome fly. The Smithsonian who stood to recover from shame and

ridicule agreed to this. But the Aerodrome was fundamentally unsound,

so Curtiss took it upon himself to make many modifications. He

eventually achieved limited flight. Among the changes were,

replacing the motor and the two primitive propellers mounted behind

the forward wing with a tractor prop powered by a more modern engine.

He also gave up on catapulting it off a houseboat and fitted it with

floats. Orville Wright was particularly insistant that Langley had

the center of pressure in the wrong places and that Curtiss applied

the Wright Bros discoveries to rerig the wing bracing.



----------------------------------------------------------------------





(photo)

THIS PICTURE SHOWS AN EARLY CURTISS INCARNATION





http://www.rense.com/general12/cig.htm



Gene from Westchester


0 -1 0 0
3139 gbaa487
Bill''s debt from stock market collapse Bill''s debt from stock market collapse 2/3/2006 11:08:00 PM


On page 4 of Bill's story he tells us of the collapse of the market.

My understanding is that it put him in about $650,000 (today's value)

in debt. How and when did he get out of that debt?



Thanks......this is the best AA info site.



george,nyc


0 -1 0 0
3140 nancy miller
First lesbian or gay AA member? First lesbian or gay AA member? 2/3/2006 8:14:00 PM


Who was the first lesbian or gay man in the program?

I heard this women set up an organization that studies

alcoholism. Who was she ???



Nancy M

Thanks



________________________________



(This is with respect to the discussion over whether

Florence R. of Westfield N.J. or Jane S. in Akron was

the first woman to get sober in AA.)


0 -1 0 0
3141 merton m.
RE: 100 Hundred Men & Women? 100 Hundred Men & Women? 2/4/2006 1:12:00 AM


Hi Art,



I enjoyed this. The only techno is that Florence

lived in Westfield NJ rather than NY. Only people

like us care about such details.



When I was archives chair for N. Jersey 15 years

ago we photographed the beautiful home as well as

extensive photos of 9-11 Hill St and 17-19 William St.

in Newark, Hanks 1936 home at 575 Wyndum (sp?) in

Teneck where Lois diary said the Jersey drunks met

at times (carried into LR I believe), Hank and

Kathleen's much larger home at 344 N. Fullerton

in Montclair where they moved in 1937 and where

Bill and Lois stayed for a few months after

leaving the Heights. (along with Jim B.).



All these photos still hang on huge displays in

the intergroup office and are carried around the

country with the traveling committee.



All the Best,

-merton







ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:



The "and women" part turned out to be Florence R of

NY (as Merton noted) whose story is "A Feminine

Victory" (Marty M didn't arrive until after the

manuscript had been distributed). Florence R, was

the first woman in AA and was sober around a year

when she wrote her story. She later moved to Washington

DC to join up with Fitz M (whose story is "Our

Southern Friend") to help start AA there. Sadly,

Florence returned to drinking (Fitz M was called

to the morgue to identify her).


0 -1 0 0
3142 Tom Hickcox
RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/6/2006 5:24:00 PM


Diz and Art have presented answers to the question referred to in the

subject line of this email.



They appear to me at least to be addressing two separate but related questions.



Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then it could be addressed.



The question could be, "Who was the first woman working the program of what

became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's sobriety?"



While some of my contemporary colleagues think you are still a bit wet

behind the ears at one year, it was an awful long time for our Old Timers,

whose sobriety was measured in months.



That is the question; what is the answer?



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3143 mertonmm3
Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/7/2006 3:47:00 AM


>Hi Art,



In GSO Archives the early members were given 1 page questioneers to

fill out which included self reported sobriety date, occupation, ect.

I specifically recall one that Florence presumably submitted. Post 64

on this site (by this sites founder) places Florence's date of entry

at March, 1937. This sound accurate but I'm missing my transcript of

this. A specific inquiry to NY regarding this questioneer will verify

the accuracy or inaccuracy as to the date if GSO responds. It would be

easiest to obtain from the microfische.



As you know Florence made contact with AA through her non-alcoholic

husband who was a friend and buisness associate of Bill's.



All the best,

-merton


0 -1 0 0
3144 Trysh Travis
San Francisco Bay area history San Francisco Bay area history 2/6/2006 10:05:00 PM


I am interested in finding out about the history of Bay-area 12-Step

culture during the late 1970s. I am curious about the growth of AA and

other organizations in San Francisco and Oakland, but also in

surrounding counties, especially Napa, Sonoma, and Mendocino. This part

of the country has a reputation for "crunchy" and New Age-y recovery,

but I'm not sure what that reputation is based on. I'd be grateful for

any sources folks can direct me to.



Thanks in advance.



Trysh Travis



ttravis@wst.ufl.edu (ttravis at wst.ufl.edu)


0 -1 0 0
3145 Sally Brown
Re: First lesbian or gay AA member? First lesbian or gay AA member? 2/7/2006 8:43:00 PM


Hi, Nancy - I think you must be referring to Marty Mann (see below), who

founded the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence (NCADD) when

she had 5 years' sobriety. She was not the first woman to come to AA, but

she was the first to achieve long-term sobriety. She arrived in AA in April

1939.



Also, she was lesbian. However, Dave (co-author of our biography of her) and

I never looked into whether she was the first LGBT. I think there may have

been one or two gay men before her, but I'd be surprised if there were

another lesbian. Maybe this posting will produce historical information for

all of us.



Shalom - Sally



Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of

Mrs. Marty Mann

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics

Anonymous

United Church of Christ



www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Road, 309

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

Email: rev.sally@att.net


0 -1 0 0
3146 ArtSheehan
RE: First lesbian or gay AA member? First lesbian or gay AA member? 2/8/2006 12:02:00 PM


Hi Nancy



Source abbreviations: (12&12)Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,

(AACOA)AA Comes of Age, (BW-FH) Bill W by Francis Hartigan, (DBGO) Dr

Bob and the Good Oldtimers, (MMM) Mrs Marty Mann by Sally and David

Brown, (PIO)Pass It On.



The first homosexual AA member likely entered the Fellowship in 1937

(“year two” on the “AA calendar”) in Akron, OH. It’s discussed in the

12&12 Tradition 3 essay but you’d be hard pressed to discover it. Its

specifics are obscured. The 12&12 Tradition 3 essay states:



“A newcomer appeared at one of these groups, knocked on the door and

asked to be let in. He talked frankly with that group's oldest member.

He soon proved that his was a desperate case, and that above all he

wanted to get well. "But," he asked, "will you let me join your group?

Since I am the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than

alcoholism, you may not want me among you. Or will you?"



“One of these groups” referred to Akron #1 in Ohio and the “oldest

member” was Dr Bob. The “addiction even worse stigmatized than

alcoholism” had nothing at all to do with drugs. Bill W later speaking

at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference described

the prospect’s “addiction” as “sex deviate.” The member was likely

homosexual. The language used by Bill to describe him was the language

of the time in the latter 1960s.



Guidance on what to do on the matter came from Dr Bob asking, “What

would the Master do?” The prospect was admitted (DBGO 240-241, also

the pamphlet “The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous” pg 30). The

member is then described in the 12&12 Tradition 3 essay as:



“Overjoyed, the newcomer plunged into Twelfth Step work. Tirelessly he

laid AA's message before scores of people. Since this was a very early

group, those scores have since multiplied themselves into thousands.

Never did he trouble anyone with his other difficulty. AA had taken

its first step in the formation of Tradition Three.”



I do not know who this member was or whether he had his story in the

1st edition Big Book. Oddly though, this Akron, OH member’s

circumstances are often erroneously intermingled with an incident that

occurred in New York 8 years later in 1945. The NY incident involved a

prominent, early homosexual member, Barry L, and an unknown homosexual

member who created quite a stir upon arrival.



Barry L (author of the book “Living Sober” discussed later below) was

likely the first male homosexual member of the Fellowship in New York.

The book “Pass It On” describes his calling Bill W from the 41st St

clubhouse in NYC to tell Bill of the arrival of “a black man who was

an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women’s clothing and

makeup.” The man also admitted to being a “dope fiend.” When asked

what to do about it, Bill W posed the question, “did you say he was a

drunk?” When answered “yes” Bill replied “well I think that’s all we

can ask” (BW-FH 8, PIO 317-318).



“Pass It On” goes on to state that “although he soon disappeared

(repeat “soon disappeared” for emphasis) the prospect’s presence

created a precedent for the 3rd Tradition.” Anecdotal accounts

erroneously say that the black man, in women’s clothing, went on to

become one. AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nancy miller

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:15 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Cc: nancy miller

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First lesbian or gay AA member?



Who was the first lesbian or gay man in the program?

I heard this women set up an organization that studies

alcoholism. Who was she ???



Nancy M

Thanks



________________________________



(This is with respect to the discussion over whether

Florence R. of Westfield N.J. or Jane S. in Akron was

the first woman to get sober in AA.)











Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3147 Wendi Turner
Early gay member Barry L. ("Living Sober" author) Early gay member Barry L. ("Living Sober" author) 2/7/2006 7:19:00 PM


I don't know he was the very "the first" gay member

but I do know this man claims to be the member who

was asked to champion "Gay Meetings" by Bill Wilson...

his name was Barry L. and also the author of

Living Sober.



You can hear his talk online at www.xa-speakers.org>



_________________________



Moderator's note:



See Message 3146 from Arthur Sheehan for more details

about Barry L.'s life and contributions to AA:



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3146


0 -1 0 0
3148 edgarc@aol.com
Sylvia K. Sylvia K. 2/9/2006 4:02:00 AM


Is it true that Sylvia Kaufmann (Keys to the Kingdom) was urged

to return to Chicago and start AA there with Earl Treat after her

visit to Akron and her professed desire to stay with the founders?

According to the story I was told, Sylvia was gorgeous, rich,

divorced, and adoring and the AA ladies of Akron felt it would be

far better for all if she did her good deeds elsewhere.

______________________________



Moderator: see Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age p. 22,

where a different story is told, and for a photo of Earl Treat,

see the second photo on

http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html


0 -1 0 0
3149 Mel Barger
Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/7/2006 4:19:00 PM


From: "Mel Barger" <melb@accesstoledo.com>

(melb at accesstoledo.com)



Hi All,

I went to my first meeting early in October, 1948,

in California and was given a loan copy of the

Big Book right then. The woman who loaned it

to me urged me to read the personal stories first

and then go back to the first part. Bill D.'s story

(AA #3) wasn't in the first edition, and appeared in

the second edition only because Bill W. recorded

him out in Akron and pretty much put together his

story.

I gathered that Bill D. wasn't all that excited about

the book idea in the beginning, but Bill W. realized

that Bill D.'s role was important and should be in

the book.

I think it made sense to have Dr. Bob's story lead

the personal story section. But I've always believed

that Bill's Story is the best and strongest of all and

deserves to lead off the entire book.

Mel Barger

____________________________________



From: James Flynn <jdf10487@yahoo.com>

(jdf10487 at yahoo.com)



The trend of worshiping the first part of the Big

Book (the first 164 pages) might have started

happening around the same time that Bill W. had

to remove stories from the back of the book

because the "recovered' alkie who was the subject

of the story relapsed.



Jim F.


0 -1 0 0
3150 ArtSheehan
RE: 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 2/4/2006 10:07:00 AM


Hi Shakey - this is a long reply



The information you seek is qualified in the source book as “according

to Clarence” or “Clarence believed.” Clarence did much for which he

should be complimented, but he also had another side that is not very

complementary. I’d suggest that Clarence S was to Bill W what Al Gore

is to George Bush today. No matter what the subject, it will be

interpreted in a sinister manner. This is not to say that anyone is

lying, rather it is what bias and antagonism produce.



The unpublished manuscript of Bob P contains the excerpts below which

are revealing. They are, for the most part independently, confirmed by

other authors in “Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers” and “Pass It On.”



Chapter 1 - When AA “Came of AGE”



All was not harmony within the Fellowship, however, which accounted

for a smaller-than-expected attendance at the St. Louis Convention. AA

had grown up in two places simultaneously - Akron and New York, each

with its own co-founder. So it is not surprising that there was a

feeling of separateness - some would say a schism - between the

Akron/Cleveland axis and the New York axis. The Akronites had clung

longer to the Oxford Groups and were more conservative generally.

Bill, the visionary, on the other hand pushed ahead with the writing

and publishing of the Big Book, the establishing of a “Headquarters”

office and, in the late 1940s, a plan for a General Service

Conference.



Dissent against this idea was led by Clarence S of Cleveland. With the

help of Henrietta Seiberling (who now lived in New York), an “Orthodox

Group” was formed to mobilize opposition to the Conference plan among

AA groups nationwide. They took pride in the fact they would have

nothing to do with Bill W, the “Headquarters” office or any form of

organization of AA. Their most vigorous efforts took place after the

first trial conference was held in 1951. The groups and members with

the “Orthodox Group” view chose, not surprisingly, to boycott the St.

Louis gathering where the Conference idea was to be ratified.



Chapter 2 - The General service Board



… in 1946, Bill submitted to the trustees a “Code of Traditions for

General Headquarters,” and followed it up with a barrage of memoranda

supporting its various points. These included ideas for fiscal

policies, and specifically the creation of a sound reserve fund; the

place of The AA Grapevine in the structure; and staff representation

at the Board and committee meetings, with a voice in policy decisions.

A 1947 memo added the most controversial proposal of all, that of

having a General Service Conference to provide a linkage between the

groups and the trustees as well as the headquarters office; and to

bring the trustees into regular contact and direct relationship with

the society.



The Board’s reaction was at first defensive and then outright negative

to Bill’s suggestions. Most of the trustees wanted to keep the status

quo. They were confident of their ability to handle whatever situation

might arise and saw no need to change. Bill, spurred into greater

urgency by Dr Bob’s illness and feeling personal frustration, pressed

harder, resulting in hot and bitter debates. As Nell recounts, “Bill

felt they wanted him to be only a spiritual symbol, confined to a kind

of ivory tower where he couldn’t stir things up.” The trustees

resented Bill’s over-aggressiveness.



Bill himself confesses, “Typically alcoholic, I turned passive

resistance into solid opposition. A serious rift developed between me

and the alcoholic members of the Board, and the situation became worse

and worse. They resented my sledgehammer tactics. As the tempest

increased, so did my blistering memorandums. One of them was an

amazing composition which finished with this astonishing sentence:

‘When I was in law school, the largest book I studied was one on

trusts. I must say, gentlemen, that it was mostly a long and

melancholy account of the malfeasances and misfeasances of boards of

trustees.’ I had written this to the best friends I had in the world,

people who had devoted themselves to AA and to me without stint.

Obviously I was on a dry bender of the worst possible sort.



This sizzling memorandum nearly blew the Foundation apart.” The

nonalcoholic trustees were “dumbfounded,” and the old-timer alcoholic

trustees hardened their opposition to the Conference plan. Four of the

trustees even submitted letters of resignation; they were: LeRoy

Chipman, Leonard Harrison, Bernard Smith and Horace C. Bill wrote each

of them a conciliatory letter of apology, and the resignations were

either withdrawn or simply not accepted at the next Board meeting.



In fact, the only support on the Board for the Conference was from

Bernard Smith. However, as the dispute wore on into 1950, Chairman

Leonard Harrison - even though he did not see the necessity for a

Conference - appointed a trustees’ committee to study the matter with

Bernard Smith as Chairman! Bill characterized this as “a most

magnanimous and generous act on Leonard’s part. Bern Smith had “a

remarkable faculty for persuasion and negotiation.” It took him only

two meetings to convince the committee to “give the Conference a try.”

The full Board voted to go along. (See Chapter 11 for a fuller history

of the Conference.)



Chapter 3 - Groups in the US: How They Began and How They Grew

East Central Region - Akron, Cleveland and Ohio



The members of the new Cleveland group were uncertain what to call

themselves and discussed several suggested names. “None of them seemed

fitting,” remembered Abby C, “so we began to refer to ourselves ‘as

Alcoholics Anonymous” after the title of the Big Book.



(On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong claim that he was,

in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He became perhaps the

most controversial character in AA. He turned against Bill and aroused

the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob of “getting rich”

off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr. Rockefeller - which they

had to disprove with a certified audit of their financial affairs.

Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt against the Conference

idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He criticized Bill and

the “New York office” vitriolically at every opportunity. Bill

steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and in their

correspondence “used soft words to turn away wrath.”



Much later, when they met at the International Convention in Toronto,

they actually spent several hours together, reminiscing. However,

Clarence, a popular speaker on the Steps and the recovery program,

continued to raise hackles wherever he appeared by calling press

conferences in which he was photographed full face with his full name,

holding the Big Book which he claimed he wrote, and identifying

himself as the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He asserted he was not

bound by AA’s Traditions because they were written later - and written

by Bill. Clarence S moved to Florida in retirement, where he remained

extremely active until his death in 1984.



Chapter 9 - General Service Office - The AA Archives



Bill had some underlying reasons for his intense interest in archival

matters, beyond that expressed in AA Comes of Age namely, so that “the

basic facts of AA‘s growth and development never can become

distorted.” By 1955, the facts were already being distorted by

Clarence S and other oldtimers who were attempting to undermine Bill’s

place in AA’s history. So Bill wanted the records available. Also Bill

was visionary; he saw the sweep and scope of the Fellowship he had

helped found and foresaw its significance as a social movement to be

studied by future historians.



Chapter 10 - The AA Grapevine



He [Bill W] obviously loved the Grapevine. He gave it his full

personal support from its very beginning, and whenever he spoke of it

or wrote about it, it was with great enthusiasm and affection. And he

devoted his time and effort unstintingly to helping it. For example,

in 1946, he wrote a six-page single-space typewritten document in the

form of a letter to attorney Royal Shepard about the corporate

structure of the Grapevine and the concepts behind it. … There were

several reasons for this special interest. Bill perceived early that

this was a means for him to communicate directly with the Fellowship

without going through the Board of Trustees - especially when he was

at odds with them on a given issue. And he used the Grapevine for this

purpose frequently and effectively. The Traditions were born and grew

to their present form in a series of articles in the latter 1940s,

beginning with a 1946 piece entitled “Twelve Points to Assure Our

Future.”



In 1950, a time when a majority of the Trustees seemed opposed to the

idea, Bill and Dr Bob wrote in the Grapevine suggesting that the AA

membership as a whole should take over, through a General Service

Conference …



Chapter 11 - The General Service Conferences



Never did the co-founder and de facto leader of a social movement ever

try so early and so fiercely to relinquish his power and authority as

did Bill W. Incredibly, only twelve years after the birth of

Alcoholics Anonymous, nine years after the formation of the Alcoholic

Foundation and eight years after the Big Book was published, Bill

wrote the first of several controversial and even explosive memos

proposing a General Service Conference. The story of his battle with

the trustees over the issue for the next three years is related in

Chapter 2 on the General Service Board. But finally in 1950, the

trustees voted reluctantly to “give the Conference a try.”



Chapter 12 - The Big Book and Other AA Literature



Bill said that more than 100 titles were considered for the book. The

title that appeared on the Multilithed copies was “Alcoholics

Anonymous.” The first documented use of the name is in a letter from

Bill to Willard Richardson dated July 15, 1938, in which he uses it to

refer to the movement. Among the other possible titles considered for

the book were: “One Hundred Men,” “The Empty Glass,” “The Dry Way,”

“The Dry Life,” and “The Way Out.”



The choices quickly boiled down to “The Way Out,” favored by most in

Akron, and “Alcoholics Anonymous,” favored by most in New York. Bill

asked Fitz M, who lived near Washington, DC, to check both titles

through the library of congress. Fitz wired back to the effect that

the Library of Congress had 25 books entitled “The Way Out,” 12

entitled “The Way,” and none called “Alcoholics Anonymous.” That

settled the matter. The title of the book quickly became the name of

the Fellowship as well. Clarence S later called himself the founder of

Alcoholics Anonymous, basing his claim on his being the first to use

the name for a group. Which he probably was. But the fact is, the book

Alcoholics Anonymous was already off the press, and the name had been

used a year earlier to refer to the Fellowship as a whole.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

Shakey1aa@aol.com

Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:43 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Cc: hvyver@kvalley.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles



My sponsor told me about AA having a "statement of principles" in

1950. He tells me they originally came out in 1948 but that no proof

is obtainable from New York. Does anyone know about this?



The statement of principles of 1948 is in Appendix G in Mitch K's book

"How it Worked."



Does anyone know why these were replaced by the 1950 statement of

principles. Do they give General Service more power?



Why does Royal S., the attorney who incorporated the Grapevine, on pg

199 say the trustees suppressed the statement of 1948?



t/y Shakey Mike G.



Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)


0 -1 0 0
3151 Archie Bunkers
God as we understand Him God as we understand Him 2/8/2006 12:38:00 AM


This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf



"William James, stripped of verbiage, says that

we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM."



Is William James the source of the Big Book

phrase "God as we understand him"??



Archie B.



________________________________



From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana)



The passage which Archie quotes is from one

of the four pamphlets we possess which

were written by the early AA people in Akron.

They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous,"

"Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous,"

"A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics

Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled

"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous.



In the passage in question, which says "William

James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should

believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM,"

it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron

believed, not that William James wrote that line,

but instead were agreeing that adding "as we

understand Him" to the references to God in the

twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief

that people of different personality types needed

different types of spirituality and different kinds

of conceptions of God.



"God as we understand Him" was not a quote

from James however, as they give it in this

pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we

understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what

James was saying in the long quotation which they

give from him, where James says "Religion shall

mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of

individual men in their solitude, so far as they

apprehend themselves to stand in relation to

whatever they may consider the divine."



The early Akron AA people were clearly saying

in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the

teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and

freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who

followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great

Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and

Buddhists, could all join together in following the

twelve steps and could understand why following

these spiritual guides to action could lead us to

the higher spiritual life.



Here is that particular section of the pamphlet,

which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that

section, so the group can read in context what

the early Akron AA people believed:

_____________________________________



"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous"



Part IV



BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the

nebulous side, we are offered more concrete

guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality.

It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even

though it seems so at first.



Let's examine what some of the fine minds of

history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators --

have to say about religion. Note that none of them,

with the exception of St. James, is a professional

religionist.



"Religion is the worship of higher powers from a

sense of need." --Allan Menzies.



"Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and

experiences of individual men in their solitude, so

far as they apprehend themselves to stand in

relation to whatever they may consider the divine."

-- William James.



"Religion is the recognition of all our duties as

divine commands."--Immanual Kant.



"Religion is that part of human experience in

which man feels himself in relation with powers

of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and

makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba.



"Pure religion and undefiled before our God and

Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows

in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted

from the world."--The General Epistle of James,

1:27.



One cannot but be impressed with the similarity

of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps.



The Menzies definition is nothing more than a

condensed version of the first three steps wherein

we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power

greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our

wills and lives over to that Power.



William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we

should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM.



Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives

over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven,

wherein we are admonished to give our lives a

thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and

restitutions are without question divine commands.



James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step,

where we make use of our newly found powers.



And all we need to do in the St. James passage is

to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less

and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a

matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we

were very definitely fatherless and widows.



The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly.

There is not an ethical religion in the world today

that does not teach to a great extent the principles

of Love, Charity and Good Will.



The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who

will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the

great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social

justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one

of our finest examples of helping one another. When

a member of the family gets into trouble of any

kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally

around with advice, admonition, and even financial

assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason

there are not more Jewish members of AA. The

family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic

problem.



Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the

poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler,

and conduct themselves with personal dignity.



Consider the eight-part program laid down in

Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right

action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness

and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy,

as exemplified by these eight points, could be

literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or

addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal

love and welfare of others rather than

considerations of self are basic to Buddhism.



The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit.

Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility

and serenity.



St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order."

We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered.


0 -1 0 0
3152 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/8/2006 9:56:00 AM


The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946 by

Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age they

thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger alcoholic. They

started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of age. The

group had several female members. They felt they could deal with members who

were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They had

parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings.

Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group members,

I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group

got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples convention.Most

of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each other and

were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety.

The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M. at

4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania.

Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think

there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area.

Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike G.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3153 Tom Hickcox
Re: Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/11/2006 5:51:00 PM


At 02:47 2/7/2006 , mertonmm3 wrote:



> >Hi Art,

>

>In GSO Archives the early members were given 1 page questioneers to

>fill out which included self reported sobriety date, occupation, ect.

>I specifically recall one that Florence presumably submitted. Post 64

>on this site (by this sites founder) places Florence's date of entry

>at March, 1937. This sound accurate but I'm missing my transcript of

>this. A specific inquiry to NY regarding this questioneer will verify

>the accuracy or inaccuracy as to the date if GSO responds. It would be

>easiest to obtain from the microfische.

>

>As you know Florence made contact with AA through her non-alcoholic

>husband who was a friend and buisness associate of Bill's.

>

>All the best,

>-merton



The West Baltimore Group's biographies of the authors of stories in the

original manuscript and first three editions, comprised by Nancy O, I believe,



<http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm>



has March 1937 as Florence R's dos, confirming the above. However, it is

not a primary source and confirmation via the questionnaire on file at GSO

would certainly be a better source.



I come up against the "God said it. I believe it. That settles it,"

argument frequently. It is along the lines of, "My sponsor conducts Big

Book studies all over the country. He has brought the Big Book alive for

hundreds of people making their lives better. How can you say he is

wrong?" This is an argument from authority, and I can see its fallacies

but we deal with so much subjective and emotional reasoning, facts from

primary sources are often ridiculed and rejected. How does one deal with this?



Tommy H in Baton Rouge





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3154 JOHN e REID
Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/11/2006 7:56:00 PM


I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession on

Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where

this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and

interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide

me with an electronic copy.



Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and

walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot,

having "done" my first 4 & 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3

months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the

1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct & personal guidance from Wesley

Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions

Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting

against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA

jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out.



Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a

shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and

mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit

from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings

list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA

material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to

me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which

included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill

Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also

suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt & pepper shaker, so as I

would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I

will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need

Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual

hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental)

hopelessness of the disease.



Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold

Disease!!!!

Kind Regards, John R



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3155 Mel Barger
Re: First lesbian or gay AA member? First lesbian or gay AA member? 2/11/2006 9:31:00 PM


Hi All,

I interviewed Barry L. by telephone and obtained the story about the

homosexual black man who had contacted Barry about coming into AA. This is

how it became included in "Pass It On." I think this happened in 1945. I

don't recall any mention of how the man fared after being introduced to the

fellowship.

I had met Barry at G.S.O. in New York and considered him a good friend.

We never discussed his being gay, but I do recall expressing condolences

when his partner died. I also attended Marty Mann's memorial services at

St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in New York City with Barry and a lesbian

member who knew Marty. The service was conducted by the minister of the

church and Yvelin G., who was an ordained Episcopal minister along with

being Marty's close associate for many years at the National Council on

Alcoholism. This service was about two months after Marty's passing. I had

interviewed Marty earlier that year at her home in Easton, CT, where she

also introduced me to her longtime partner, Priscilla Peck. Priscilla was

then suffering from Alzheimer's but Marty was still taking care of her, and

I had the feeling that they were a very devoted couple. I learned more

about their relationship in the Browns' book and was also happy to hear that

Priscilla was well taken care of after Marty died.

It appeared to me that Lois W.'s best friends in the fellowship were

Barry and Nell Wing (though Nell wasn't an alcoholic). Barry accompanied

Lois on out-of-town speaking engagements and was otherwise very attentive to

her. I believed that Barry was probably in her will, as was Nell, but he

predeceased Lois.

I was also familiar with Barry's efforts to obtain extra compensation for

his work on "Living Sober." Lois reportedly endorsed this effort. I didn't

feel he had any grounds for receiving additional pay, as he had taken on the

project on a work-for-hire basis with no royalties specified. He used Bill

W.'s royalties as a precedent, but I'm sure Bill negotiated the royalty

agreement up front when he wrote "The Twelve and Twelve" plus "AA Comes of

Age." His Big Book royalties were agreed upon earlier. I think Barry died

before this matter was finally settled.

Mel Barger


0 -1 0 0
3156 Penny
Experience, strength, and hope Experience, strength, and hope 2/12/2006 3:14:00 AM


Where did the phrase share our experience, strength

and hope come from?



In love and sobriety

Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00

Roanoke Virginia



Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is

greater than the fear of letting go!

Never assume some one knows you love them,

take the time to tell them.


0 -1 0 0
3157 ArtSheehan
RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/12/2006 9:29:00 AM


I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should be a factor as

opposed to just when someone might have first showed up. Bill and Bob

had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and Eddie R) prior to

Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the legendary "Lil."



Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R for primacy and my

vote goes to Florence.



Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated Clarence S (the

acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is not recalled in

Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on interviews with

Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits other than being

mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along with "Lil."



Cheers

Arthur



__________________________________



Message 3142 from:

Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers]

First woman was Jane S., not Florence



Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then

it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who

was the first woman working the program of what

became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's

sobriety?"


0 -1 0 0
3158 hesofine2day
"burning desire" "burning desire" 2/6/2006 4:47:00 PM


I have an idea that many of the expressions and

conventions in AA these days have seeped in from

NA and/or treatment centers.



Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have

a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting?



Also where did the expression "do the next right

thing" come from?



And finally saying "It works if you work it" after

the Lord's prayer.

________________________________



From the moderator:



Raymond I., who shows up in my book about

old time AA in northern Indiana

(see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html)

frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with

a burning desire." He says he didn't make up

this phrase, but that it was something that other

people also said back in the old days.



"Old time" is relative.



Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was

trained by the old-time black AA members who came

into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk

treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that

everybody chants at the end of their meetings.



So I think that in the form "you must want it with

a burning desire," the words go back to a period

before all the psychobabble and high school

cheerleading type stuff.



The great heyday of the treatment centers funded

by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to

the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior

to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from

that source.



But can anybody trace "you must want it with a

burning desire" back before the 1970's?



"Modern AA" and "old time AA" are both relative

terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very

different from 1938, 1939 is very different from

1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or

1949. The 1960's were very different from the

1950's. AA was going through continuous change

and development during that whole period. But

it was working effectively and continuing to

grow and expand at an enormous rate.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
3159 sbanker914@aol.com
Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker 2/5/2006 7:16:00 AM


Dear Art,



I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list

very much.



Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a

purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone). It

turned

out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of

Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of the

tape

very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged

when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr.

Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I

remember her

telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had

filled up with needy women in early recovery.



I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another

recovering woman.



I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude.



Susan Banker

NYC









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3160 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/13/2006 7:45:00 AM


If no one else can find a hard copy, mine went with my other research

materials to the Kirk Collection at Brown University. I trust it could

be easily available: even though they have not yet sorted all my

materials, the printed one's are indexed as to location (I think). If

interested, contact David_Lewis@brown.edu or perhaps better,

Tovah-Reis@brown.edu



ernie k.


0 -1 0 0
3161 Mitchell K.
RE: 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 2/13/2006 8:37:00 AM


I guess that when a second printing is done of How It

Worked I'll have o include all of Royal Shepard's

letters and all of Henrietta Seiberling's letters

relating to both Bill and the Statement of 1948.



I prefer using actual documentation from the period in

question rather than sanitized and committee reviewed

official literature written and published years beyond

the actual events. Clarence was merely a part of the

Orthodox Group/Movement and not the founding member.

The documentation and not the apologists bear that

out.



--- ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:



> Hi Shakey - this is a long reply

>

> The information you seek is qualified in the source

> book as “according

> to Clarence” or “Clarence believed.” Clarence did

> much for which he

> should be complimented, but he also had another side

> that is not very

> complementary. I’d suggest that Clarence S was to

> Bill W what Al Gore

> is to George Bush today. No matter what the subject,

> it will be

> interpreted in a sinister manner. This is not to say

> that anyone is

> lying, rather it is what bias and antagonism

> produce.

>

> The unpublished manuscript of Bob P contains the

> excerpts below which

> are revealing. They are, for the most part

> independently, confirmed by

> other authors in “Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers” and

> “Pass It On.”

>

> Chapter 1 - When AA “Came of AGE”

>

> All was not harmony within the Fellowship, however,

> which accounted

> for a smaller-than-expected attendance at the St.

> Louis Convention. AA

> had grown up in two places simultaneously - Akron

> and New York, each

> with its own co-founder. So it is not surprising

> that there was a

> feeling of separateness - some would say a schism -

> between the

> Akron/Cleveland axis and the New York axis. The

> Akronites had clung

> longer to the Oxford Groups and were more

> conservative generally.

> Bill, the visionary, on the other hand pushed ahead

> with the writing

> and publishing of the Big Book, the establishing of

> a “Headquarters”

> office and, in the late 1940s, a plan for a General

> Service

> Conference.

>

> Dissent against this idea was led by Clarence S of

> Cleveland. With the

> help of Henrietta Seiberling (who now lived in New

> York), an “Orthodox

> Group” was formed to mobilize opposition to the

> Conference plan among

> AA groups nationwide. They took pride in the fact

> they would have

> nothing to do with Bill W, the “Headquarters” office

> or any form of

> organization of AA. Their most vigorous efforts took

> place after the

> first trial conference was held in 1951. The groups

> and members with

> the “Orthodox Group” view chose, not surprisingly,

> to boycott the St.

> Louis gathering where the Conference idea was to be

> ratified.

>

> Chapter 2 - The General service Board

>

> … in 1946, Bill submitted to the trustees a “Code of

> Traditions for

> General Headquarters,” and followed it up with a

> barrage of memoranda

> supporting its various points. These included ideas

> for fiscal

> policies, and specifically the creation of a sound

> reserve fund; the

> place of The AA Grapevine in the structure; and

> staff representation

> at the Board and committee meetings, with a voice in

> policy decisions.

> A 1947 memo added the most controversial proposal of

> all, that of

> having a General Service Conference to provide a

> linkage between the

> groups and the trustees as well as the headquarters

> office; and to

> bring the trustees into regular contact and direct

> relationship with

> the society.

>

> The Board’s reaction was at first defensive and then

> outright negative

> to Bill’s suggestions. Most of the trustees wanted

> to keep the status

> quo. They were confident of their ability to handle

> whatever situation

> might arise and saw no need to change. Bill, spurred

> into greater

> urgency by Dr Bob’s illness and feeling personal

> frustration, pressed

> harder, resulting in hot and bitter debates. As Nell

> recounts, “Bill

> felt they wanted him to be only a spiritual symbol,

> confined to a kind

> of ivory tower where he couldn’t stir things up.”

> The trustees

> resented Bill’s over-aggressiveness.

>

> Bill himself confesses, “Typically alcoholic, I

> turned passive

> resistance into solid opposition. A serious rift

> developed between me

> and the alcoholic members of the Board, and the

> situation became worse

> and worse. They resented my sledgehammer tactics. As

> the tempest

> increased, so did my blistering memorandums. One of

> them was an

> amazing composition which finished with this

> astonishing sentence:

> ‘When I was in law school, the largest book I

> studied was one on

> trusts. I must say, gentlemen, that it was mostly a

> long and

> melancholy account of the malfeasances and

> misfeasances of boards of

> trustees.’ I had written this to the best friends I

> had in the world,

> people who had devoted themselves to AA and to me

> without stint.

> Obviously I was on a dry bender of the worst

> possible sort.

>

> This sizzling memorandum nearly blew the Foundation

> apart.” The

> nonalcoholic trustees were “dumbfounded,” and the

> old-timer alcoholic

> trustees hardened their opposition to the Conference

> plan. Four of the

> trustees even submitted letters of resignation; they

> were: LeRoy

> Chipman, Leonard Harrison, Bernard Smith and Horace

> C. Bill wrote each

> of them a conciliatory letter of apology, and the

> resignations were

> either withdrawn or simply not accepted at the next

> Board meeting.

>

> In fact, the only support on the Board for the

> Conference was from

> Bernard Smith. However, as the dispute wore on into

> 1950, Chairman

> Leonard Harrison - even though he did not see the

> necessity for a

> Conference - appointed a trustees’ committee to

> study the matter with

> Bernard Smith as Chairman! Bill characterized this

> as “a most

> magnanimous and generous act on Leonard’s part. Bern

> Smith had “a

> remarkable faculty for persuasion and negotiation.”

> It took him only

> two meetings to convince the committee to “give the

> Conference a try.”

> The full Board voted to go along. (See Chapter 11

> for a fuller history

> of the Conference.)

>

> Chapter 3 - Groups in the US: How They Began and How

> They Grew

> East Central Region - Akron, Cleveland and Ohio

>

> The members of the new Cleveland group were

> uncertain what to call

> themselves and discussed several suggested names.

> “None of them seemed

> fitting,” remembered Abby C, “so we began to refer

> to ourselves ‘as

> Alcoholics Anonymous” after the title of the Big

> Book.

>

> (On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong

> claim that he was,

> in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He

> became perhaps the

> most controversial character in AA. He turned

> against Bill and aroused

> the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob

> of “getting rich”

> off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr.

> Rockefeller - which they

> had to disprove with a certified audit of their

> financial affairs.

> Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt

> against the Conference

> idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He

> criticized Bill and

> the “New York office” vitriolically at every

> opportunity. Bill

> steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and

> in

=== message truncated ===


0 -1 0 0
3162 James Flynn
Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/13/2006 10:21:00 AM


The book Under The Influence By Dr. James Milam explains in great detail the

benifits of vitamin B-complex for newly recovering alcoholics. I have never seen

anything written on the subject by Bill W. but it is widely known that he was an

advocate of Niacin which is a B-vitamin.



Jim F.





---------------------------------

Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and

used cars.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3163 t
Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/13/2006 1:06:00 PM


perhaps these Grapevine articles will yield some answers...

Philadelphia seems to have started in Jan 46 - their follow up article indicates

hearing from/about several earlier Young People's groups though.

San Diego Young Men's group is reported to have begun in Oct 46 -that 1948

article

also mentions a Young Women's group also there, but does not date its beginning.





Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote:

> The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946 by

> Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age they

> thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger alcoholic. They

> started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of age. The

> group had several female members. They felt they could deal with members who

> were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They had

> parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings.

> Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group members,

> I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group

> got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples

convention.Most

> of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each other and

> were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety.

> The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M. at

> 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania.

> Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think

> there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area.

> Yours in Service,

> Shakey Mike G.

>



-----------------------------

© Grapevine, November 1946

What Do You Think About Youth Group In Philadelphia?

From Philadelphia

A group of A.A.s has been formed at Philadelphia for men and women, 35 years of

age

and under. This group was formed in January, 1946, with just six members, only

three

of whom had been dry the four months required for voting membership. This

membership

has since been expanded to about thirty, nearly half of whom have been dry over

four

months.

We were under the impression when we began this group that we were trailblazers

in

the field, but reports from some of our visiting A.A.s have indicated that it

has

been tried before, although with very little success. We are not seeking pioneer

credit in writing this letter, but rather, constructive criticism. We hope to

hear

from other groups throughout the country, giving us the benefit of your

experience

with young people and with such organizations as ours if they have been

attempted.

We were slow in getting started with our group and we are still proceeding with

caution since it is apparent that our abilities lie more in the realm of

prevention

than in cure. Most young people have not been hurt badly enough or often enough,

so

they think, to feel that they are in any need of what we in A.A. have to offer.

It is

feared that for this reason we will experience more than a normal number of

relapses,

and that our progress will of necessity be slow. However, many of our later

members

have admitted that had it not been for this young group they would not have

stuck to

AA. So, we are doing some good.

Let's hear from other groups. We would like your suggestions, advice, criticism

and

opinions on what we are trying to do.—B.D.Mc.



--------------------------------

© Grapevine, May 1948

Young Men Solve Meeting Problems

from San Diego, Calif.



In the January issue of The A.A. Grapevine there is a letter from Florence S.

of

Forest Hills, N.Y., asking for suggestions for the younger ages who need A.A.

In San Diego, this problem has been met by the formation of the Young Women's

Group

(under 35), and the Young Men's Group (under 40). These groups have been very

successful and seem to have tapped an unending source of new A.A.s.

The young men seemed to have the idea, "Hell, if I was as old as John Doe, I'd

quit

drinking, too." It was rather disheartening to listen to someone tell of 20

years of

hard drinking, and realize that we had five or ten years to go before we could

even

approximate the same low bottom. These "old goats" gave us the idea we had to

hit

several cures, try a few types of "goof balls," and have at least two or more

trips

to psychopathic wards, before we were ready for A.A. It gave us the feeling we

couldn't make the Program because we hadn't been knocked around enough.

The first accomplishment noted by the Young Men's Group soon became its

strongest

selling point: It had automatically raised the level for the young man's turning

point.

The older person's problems are greatly different from ours. There was no

education

on things alcoholic when they were our age, therefore they had to go down until

their

hand was forced. We have been fortunate in having the subject discussed in

almost

each magazine we read these days. Their immediate families are usually better

established so far as understanding goes, because they have been married for a

much

longer period. The average young man is just beginning his family life and it is

often harder to get his wife to go along in the new way of life. The young wife

is

more apt to resent the husband's attendance at closed meetings.

The vast majority of our members are combat veterans with some horrible

memories in

their minds. The older members have the same memories but time does do a lot to

erase

the strength of such thoughts. Only a few of us have seen prohibition days, but

a lot

of us have put away a surprising amount of GI alcohol, de-icer fluid (that was

what

we distilled in the Air Corps, and it wasn't too bad then), saki, and other

drinks

that are native to Hawaii, China, the Philippines and other Pacific Islands.

The younger man has an inherent cockiness that gives him a bit of trouble once

in a

while. There are quite a few problems that confront the young man of today;

problems

that the "old goats" must have had but have now forgotten. These problems and

many

others, we believe, can best be solved by a Young Men's Group.

The first meeting of the Young Men's Group was held October 31, 1946, with six

young

men and 20 of the older men in attendance. The second meeting saw 15 young

fellows

and 23 "old goats" attending. The "old goats" stayed with us for three months,

by

which time we had such a large attendance it was necessary to form a new

meeting.

Left on our own, we changed to roundtable type meetings and outlawed any

applause for

the speakers. The newer men soon found it was quite easy to speak since it was

no

longer necessary to stand in front of an audience. Also, some of the quieter men

found it easy to question the speaker since it wasn't necessary to address the

chair.

Questioning and general discussions led to deeper explanations, better

understanding

and, generally speaking, better working of the A.A. Program. The younger fellows

strike right at the heart of any problem placed before them, and Heaven help the

person who isn't serious when he offers a problem or question for discussion and

possible solution. We let our hair down in no uncertain manner with no holds

barred.

There are times when we have asked for help from the older members because of

their

greater experience in handling some particular problem.

On the whole, our group has been a great success. Some of the boys have

naturally

dropped by the wayside, but most of these have re-enlisted in A.A. and are now

doing

a splendid job. We have had quite a few drop out in favor of meetings nearer

their

homes, but this is a natural separation and we feel that our group has played a

huge

part in selling them on this new way of life. The temporary win and lose columns

of

A.A. will show our group with an exceptionally high percentage in the win

section.

For almost 17 months, our active member list has averaged about 50 men and the

average meeting will find around 30 members attending. Holidays have not

affected our

attendance. Rather, it has been found that the men are glad that their meeting

will

be held on the eve of a big holiday.

The third Thursday of each month we open our meeting to the oldtimers and they

are

very welcome guests. They do not speak unless the leader asks for any word they

may

have, or unless one feels he may have a message of special benefit for the

group. All

business discussion of any sort, clubs, parties or what have you, must be left

until

the A.A. meeting has closed for the evening. The only ironclad rule that is

never

excepted: NO WOMEN.

We "charter members" are very proud of our group and its work, and certainly

hope it

will continue to grow long after we have passed on into the category of "old

goats."—

W.B.A.



--------------------------------



© Grapevine, July 1950

Bridging the Age Gap



TODAY, more than ever, people are becoming aware and taking greater concern

with the

seriousness of our major public health problems. Alcoholism, our fourth largest

Public Health Problem, has more increasingly been brought before the public

mind.

Many of the taboos and myths formerly attached to alcoholism are gradually being

supplanted with realistic thinking and serious attempts toward prevention and

the

arresting of alcoholism in its earlier stages.

One of the most important myths that has been shattered is that young people,

who

are still in their twenties and thirties cannot be suffering from this disease.

The

stories of numerous alcoholics, now members of Alcoholics Anonymous, has proven

that

in a large number of cases symptoms of this disease showed quite early in the

period

of active drinking. The pattern of "Blackouts," "Excusing a drink," "Becoming

anti-social" and having "Morning drinks" had become strongly entrenched while

the

alcoholic was still a college student or in that age bracket. More, however,

started

to have difficulties such as "Solitary Drinking" and "Benders" quite early in

their

business careers and resulted in the loss of jobs, family, finances and other

assets.

Alcoholics Anonymous has taken a realistic look at the problem of alcoholism in

relation to young people. In the last three or four years, groups whose specific

aim

is to reach the younger alcoholic have mushroomed throughout the country. In New

York

City alone, the Young Peoples Group better known as the "Thirty-Five and Under

Group"

has grown from a mere handful in 1947 to its present membership of some 75 to

100

alcoholics ranging in age from the twenties through 35. This group augments the

older

and more established groups and encourages its members to attend the meetings of

older-age groups, so as to foster a more rounded and stabilized type of thinking

about alcoholism and the therapy of AA.

Every member of Alcoholics Anonymous learns, after attendance of the first few

group

meetings, that the Twelfth Suggested Step is a most important one in the

prolonging

of his or her sobriety. It is not easy for a young person in his early twenties

or

thirties to be of assistance to the sick alcoholic who has been drinking 20 or

30

years and many times leads to dangerous comparisons by the younger person. How

much

more useful this younger member can be when using his or her efforts in

'twelfth-stepping' a person of a comparative age level. Members of this age

group are

facing the many sided problems of living at relatively the same time and it is

encouraging to know that other young people are hurdling similar difficulties

with

success. Most important is the comfortable feeling which comes of being able to

discuss problems such as Marriage, resumption of studies, the inherent

tendencies of

alcoholism, its prognosis in relation to certain family situations and other

factors

which might otherwise endanger sobriety. It is important because of the feeling

of

mutuality and the lack of any taint of "Preaching," "Parental- Counseling," or

"Scholastic Pedanticism."

— J.B., Brooklyn, N.Y.



--------------------------------



© Grapevine, June 1958

YOUTH GROUP DISBANDS



THE YOUNG PEOPLE'S GROUP of Boston, after a great deal of deliberation, has

decided

to disband.

Ten years ago when the group was formed, there was a definite need for a Young

People's Group. Today, young people are well represented in most groups. We feel

that

there is no need for a specialized group. The group is happy to report that most

of

its original members are active in other groups.

It is encouraging to know that young people can enjoy happy productive sobriety

such

as these original members are experiencing.

Roy L., Winthrop, Mass.



--------------------------------



© Grapevine, September 1961

A Report on YOUTH GROUPS



I ATTENDED the Fourth International Conference of Young People in AA in

Milwaukee

this year, and interviewed everybody present I could pin down. About 250 AAs,

Al-Anon

members and guests attended the three-day meeting in Milwaukee.

AAs and Al-Anons of all ages from the Milwaukee-Chicago area mingled at the

meetings

with young AAs from as far West as Vancouver, British Columbia, and San

Francisco,

California; from as far East as New York. Three Australian members, in their

thirties, sent their greetings and talks on tape.

How young are these AAs, really? Among forty AAs who participated as speakers

or on

the host planning committee the average age is thirty four —ranging from

twenty-two

to fifty-two. The average length of continuous sobriety is four years and nine

months. When they first came to AA, two of these forty AAs were in their teens;

twenty-two were in their twenties and fourteen in their thirties.

Speaker after speaker told of dozens of arrests in their teen years. One girl

had an

eight-year prison record behind her when she sobered up eight years ago, aged

thirty-four. When one thirty-one-year-old, sober eight years, said from the

platform,

"I had my seventeenth conviction on my seventeenth birthday," no one in the

audience

seemed particularly impressed.

Many had started drinking at twelve, thirteen and fourteen. One said, "I was an

alcoholic at thirteen, on skid row at fifteen." Another declared, "I know I was

an

alky at sixteen." One girl said, "I was on the streets at seventeen, and knew

then I

was an alcoholic."

Commitment to mental hospitals in their early twenties seemed commonplace among

these AAs. There were enough skid row alumni to form a group of their own.

Another

could have been made up among the former reformatory students. Warden John C.

Burke

of Wisconsin State Prison, Waupun, greeted a number of his former charges at the

conference, including the chairman of the host planning committee, who

introduced the

Warden, with a straight face, as "my former landlord." The prison official told

one

of the sessions that probably eighty per cent of the young convicts in his

institution have a drinking problem.

Several speakers told of lying about their ages to get into armed services:

"because

in uniform I would have no trouble buying drinks." There were frequent stories

of

broken youthful marriages: "I thought it would settle me down."

So it wasn't surprising to hear speakers say—in private conversations —they

felt

puzzled upon first coming to AA to hear older members say, "You're too young to

be an

alcoholic." Several reported being advised to "go out and do some more drinking.

You're not old enough for AA."

As one speaker put it: "I was leaving one of my first meetings when I overheard

an

older member remark, 'I've spilled more booze on my vest than that young punk

has

drunk.' Probably he had," continued the thirty-one-year-old good-humoredly, "but

it

was the alcohol I had drunk, not the liquor he had spilled, which made my life

unmanageable."

A twenty-eight-year-old, in AA three years now, demonstrated the seriousness of

his

alcoholism this way: "My drunken escapades made the papers so often that my

first

wife began to speak of it as my 'column.' Then they began not printing it,

because my

booze troubles just weren't news in our town any more."

He laughed when he recalled the "deep freeze" older members gave him his first

year.

He recalled one older man who had said, "Never had the DTs? Sonny, go drink

another

ten years. You're no alky."

The youngster said seriously: "Once the older fellows started laughing when I

told

them about a marriage problem I had. So, since they assured me I couldn't be an

alcoholic at my age, I decided I must be a psycho. I kept seeing a psychiatrist,

and

drinking, for a whole year. Later I learned it isn't how long you have drunk, or

how

much, but what alcohol has done to your life that makes you eligible for AA."

Often these young speakers told of being tolerated within groups of older

members,

but never being given any AA jobs to do. "Even now," said a fellow in his early

thirties, sober over three years, "when I'm sitting in the clubhouse and a

Twelfth

Step call comes in, they say I'm too young to go on it."

This lack of acceptance has also taken other forms. When a young people's group

was

formed in one city, an AA clubhouse used by several other groups refused to let

the

young people meet in one of its rooms, one young "founder" reported. "But then,"

added the member with a youthful grin, "the clubhouse found it needed money

badly, so

they let us rent space after all. And lots of them come to our meetings now." In

fact, one fifty-five-year-old slipper attributes his re-grasp of sobriety to

this

"infant" group.

Such stories were told in private conversation, not in talks from the platform.

And

only in one of the forty people I talked to did I find anything like anger about

such

treatment. In that one case, the stinging memory seems a goad that spurs this

young

fellow into ferocious energy for twelfth-stepping other young guys.

These experiences and reactions are by no means universal among younger AA

members

in all localities, but they had a direct effect on a number of those I talked to

in

Milwaukee. Younger members began banding together in their own groups. In some

places, naturally enough, young AA groups were started with high hopes and

flood-tide

energy, but little stable or wise leadership. Groups turned into social clubs,

or

other Traditions were broken, and groups died. Thus, members of large, healthy

young

people's groups point out that in some areas the youngsters may miss the

encouragement and interest of older, wiser members, and most attend other AA

meetings, where they find "immediate identification with other young

alcoholics," as

one man put it.

"We find activity," said a thirty-eight-year-old who has been sober : nine

years.

"We are made members of the group steering committees, we twelfth-step lots of

other

younger people, and when any of us goes to speak at another group, six or eight

carloads of us go along."

"Older people always did scare me," one girl admitted. "I guess we just rebel

more

at our age, even in AA groups. In the younger groups, though, there is no

temptation

to compare my drinking with that of the fellows who reminisce about bathtub gin

or

speakeasies."

Others took a different tack. "My young group helps me with current problems,"

one

fellow said. "As a young guy I have lots of domestic, professional and other

personal

problems. Choosing a career and getting started in it, or starting a family, are

not

problems most older members are now facing. So we younger ones can face them

together

and help one another. That's in addition to helping each other stay sober, which

must

come first always, of course."

(In many ways, this was truly more a "family" convention than other regional AA

conventions I have attended. Many pretty, young, nonalcoholic wives, active in

local

family Al-Anon groups, helped at every stage in the planning, served as

hostesses and

guides, and talked at both AA and their own meetings. One family present had

four

Alateen members along. Its fifteen-year-old had painted the enormous, handsome

blue-and-white "Fourth International Conference, Young People in AA" banner

which

decorated the main AA meeting hall for the Milwaukee sessions.)

If any quality besides enthusiasm and love seemed a hallmark of the brand of AA

at

the Milwaukee get together, it was seriousness. Healthy, honest self-criticism,

frank

and open self-inventory and wide varieties of opinion, were evident constantly.

A thirty-seven-year-old, sober six years, summed up the value of young people's

groups this way: "We show younger alcoholics that they are not different just

because

they are young. We show others that you can be young, and alcoholic, yet still

be

sober and happy in AA. Booze doesn't respect youth any more than it does age."

The Milwaukee Conference helped prove those facts in a big way and must have

carried

the message to many other young alcoholics, or their friends. Both of

Milwaukee's big

daily newspapers ran many stories about "Young People in AA."

Local ministers and hotel officials also helped, as did many older AA members

of the

Chicago-Milwaukee area. A Milwaukee clubhouse cooperated and so did the

secretary of

the Milwaukee Central Office. Both Illinois delegates to the Eleventh General

Service

Conference supported the youth conference with their presence.

Of the thirty-nine AA speakers on the program, only three talked specifically

about

young people's groups, or the Young People's Conference idea. Others told their

own

stories, as AAs do everywhere, or addressed themselves to the three theme words

of

the Conference: Gratitude, Obedience and Devotion.

But do the supporters of these Canadian-American conferences of young people in

AA

really advocate the formation of more groups designated especially for young

people?

As might be expected among any collection of good AAs, opinions differ, and

each

seems to have a valid foundation in its holder's own individual experience.

A pamphlet distributed at the Milwaukee sessions is entitled "Facts, Aims,

Purposes

of Young People's Groups in AA in the United States and Canada." It declares:

"...there is a great need for at least one young people's group in every city so

the

young coming into AA can get together once a week and discuss their problems

with

other young people of their own age."

Some young members, as we have seen, claim that such groups made it possible

for

them to receive and maintain a sobriety they found impossible in other groups.

Most

of them insist, though, that it is necessary for any young AA to attend other

meetings in addition to those for young people.

Other speakers in Milwaukee denied any intention to encourage the formation of

special groups. "We just want to encourage the acceptance of young people in any

AA

groups. We do not favor any kind of AA segregation, by age or anything else. We

do

not seek to divide AA, or set up any separate organization. We just want to add

an

extra bond of fellowship to the cement of AA."

Three young members in a New England state—who were not at the Milwaukee

Convention—say they have found no need for special young people's groups.

One twenty-three-year-old mother of two came to AA when she was eighteen. "I

used to

window-shop the fancy stores on Fifth Avenue, in New York, dead drunk, dressed

in

sloppy blue jeans and a filthy sweat shirt with university letters on it, so

people

would think I was a college kid! AA is not for kids; it forces us to mature and

I

didn't want to grow up. So I slipped around for two years before I really got

sober.

It happened in a regular group."

Her husband was in trouble because of drinking at fifteen, swore off at

eighteen

because of "a car-theft charge." Shaking his head wonderingly, he says, "I

thought I

was too young to be an alcoholic!" He sobered up in a group full of older

members.

His buddy's first drinks were morning ones. "I reached under the bed for the

jug

before I got up, in a summer work camp," he said. "I was fifteen years old." Ten

years later he came to AA and "slipped around at first. I didn't see any room in

this

outfit for a young man to 'get ahead' —that is, get to be group secretary!" He

laughs

at that now. At the age of thirty he was chosen by the name-in the-hat method

prescribed in "The Third Legacy Manual" as one of his state's two delegates to

the

Eleventh General Service Conference in New York.

Do the Young People in AA conferences divert energy that could be better

utilized in

contributions to AA as a whole? Maybe so.

None of the young members on the program in Milwaukee spoke of service to AA as

General Service Representatives, local Committeemen, or G.S. Conference

Delegates.

(However, the Milwaukee Central Office Secretary says local youngsters are avid

GSO

supporters.) There were no Grapevine Representatives or contributors among them.

Little was said of institutional work and nothing about correspondence with

loners;

lack of information about AA as a whole and its Third Legacy seemed on a par

with

what I've found in almost any other AA gathering not specifically devoted to

those

larger, more demanding aspects of worldwide AA service.

There was at the Milwaukee gathering, though, an unusually intense awareness of

AA

Traditions and the need for Public Information activities by AA members.

Newspaper

reporters were especially well treated. Nonalcoholic guests included the

executive

director of the Chicago Alcoholic Treatment Center, a prison warden, and a high

school principal. A rehabilitation counselor of Chicago's police department was

also

present by invitation.

On the value of special young people's groups, here is what one central office

secretary from a large city said: "These young people's groups are the

lifesavers of

AA in our area. They are actually open to members of all ages but the service

jobs in

them are held by those under thirty-five. It's from these young people that we

get

most of the best workers who keep our Central Office functioning. They're the

ones we

can count on most to take on Twelfth Step jobs, institutional work and public

information tasks."

One of the older "advisors" of the Milwaukee Conference said: "We noticed in my

regular group that young people didn't stick with us, and we had a meeting to

discuss

it one night. We wondered if maybe wasn't our own fault. That's why we helped

establish a young people's group and now do all we can to help these

conferences. You

see, it's great for us!"

The Milwaukee Conference had three such advisors ("We spoke only when spoken

to,"

grinned one of them), a practice established at the second youth conference, in

Chicago in 1959, when the youthful sponsors of the get-together found themselves

with

some pretty tough problems to lick.

Over objections and warnings by some of those present in Milwaukee, a permanent

"Advisory Council" was formed there to help perpetuate the youth conference idea

and

accumulate a body of guiding experience.

Two officers from each of the first four conferences make up the Advisory

Council.

They hope to establish a permanent fund to insure the financial solvency of

future

conferences (incidentally, all who went to Milwaukee, even the speakers, paid

their

own way); set up their own newsletter and public information activities, and set

up a

permanent address for the exchange of information about young people in AA.

"We're

not a movement, or a breaking away from AA," one conference leader kept

insisting.

"Our primary purpose is to help carry the message to younger people."

Perhaps these young people have a genuine, valid need for a new AA service arm,

in

line with our Ninth Tradition: "... we may create service boards or committees

directly responsible to those they serve." Perhaps not.

The member I know who has been sober longest seems quite unperturbed by such

new

developments as the young people's conferences. He says, "Don't forget, we have

a

self-corrective factor in AA. These special groups either function in the

framework

of AA, or they fold up. don't know what we have to be afraid of, as long as we

put

ourselves truly in God's hands. We ought to do everything we can to encourage

them,

to help them communicate with alcoholics they can reach and we can't. They don't

need

our censure. We owe them our love."

I felt quite at home among these younger members. I was impressed by the

quality of

their sobriety, their dedication to AA principles and work, their determination

generally to add to AA, never to detract from it or divide it. They taught me a

lot,

and I'll be sentimentally grateful for a long time.

One thing is certain: young people, thank God, are coming to AA in increasing

numbers. They hold the promise and the power of our future leadership, and the

older

members must help them to utilize their youth, vitality and great potential.

B.L., New York City


0 -1 0 0
3164 Steve Leeds
Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? 2/13/2006 12:04:00 PM


Hey All,



I have a cassette tape that is marked Sister Ignatia and Bill Wilson -

Longbeach Convention. The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but

I am looking for confermation that the womens voice is that of Sister

Ignatia. Could anyone confirm that she did speak with Bill at that

convention?



Thanks,

Steven











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3165 Ernest Kurtz
Bill D. Bill D. 2/13/2006 7:39:00 AM


Mel and interested others,



Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976, Nell Wing for sure and, I

think, trustee George G. told me that Bill D's story was not in the

first edition because he wanted to be paid for it.



At best third-hand hearsay to you, but . . . .



ernie k.


0 -1 0 0
3166 Archie Bunkers
Re: God as we understand Him God as we understand Him 2/13/2006 4:45:00 PM


In reading Glenn C.'s response to my original e-mail, I see that I did not

make myself clear enough. I realize that "God as we understand Him" is a

paraphrase of what James was saying. The Akron AA's knew this too. Could

this early referrence to James be an indication that whoever originated the

Big Book phrase "God as we understand Him" (either Bill W. or Jimmy B. or

whoever) been paraphasing William James?? My point is, that if this is

true, the Big Book would be that original printed source of the phrase "God

as we understand Him".



Archie B.



----- Original Message -----

From: "Archie Bunkers" <ARCHIEBUNKERS@peoplepc.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him





> This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf

>

> "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that

> we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM."

>

> Is William James the source of the Big Book

> phrase "God as we understand him"??

>

> Archie B.

>

> ________________________________

>

> From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana)

>

> The passage which Archie quotes is from one

> of the four pamphlets we possess which

> were written by the early AA people in Akron.

> They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous,"

> "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous,"

> "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics

> Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled

> "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous.

>

> In the passage in question, which says "William

> James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should

> believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM,"

> it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron

> believed, not that William James wrote that line,

> but instead were agreeing that adding "as we

> understand Him" to the references to God in the

> twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief

> that people of different personality types needed

> different types of spirituality and different kinds

> of conceptions of God.

>

> "God as we understand Him" was not a quote

> from James however, as they give it in this

> pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we

> understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what

> James was saying in the long quotation which they

> give from him, where James says "Religion shall

> mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of

> individual men in their solitude, so far as they

> apprehend themselves to stand in relation to

> whatever they may consider the divine."

>

> The early Akron AA people were clearly saying

> in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the

> teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and

> freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who

> followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great

> Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and

> Buddhists, could all join together in following the

> twelve steps and could understand why following

> these spiritual guides to action could lead us to

> the higher spiritual life.

>

> Here is that particular section of the pamphlet,

> which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that

> section, so the group can read in context what

> the early Akron AA people believed:

> _____________________________________

>

> "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous"

>

> Part IV

>

> BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the

> nebulous side, we are offered more concrete

> guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality.

> It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even

> though it seems so at first.

>

> Let's examine what some of the fine minds of

> history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators --

> have to say about religion. Note that none of them,

> with the exception of St. James, is a professional

> religionist.

>

> "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a

> sense of need." --Allan Menzies.

>

> "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and

> experiences of individual men in their solitude, so

> far as they apprehend themselves to stand in

> relation to whatever they may consider the divine."

> -- William James.

>

> "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as

> divine commands."--Immanual Kant.

>

> "Religion is that part of human experience in

> which man feels himself in relation with powers

> of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and

> makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba.

>

> "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and

> Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows

> in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted

> from the world."--The General Epistle of James,

> 1:27.

>

> One cannot but be impressed with the similarity

> of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps.

>

> The Menzies definition is nothing more than a

> condensed version of the first three steps wherein

> we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power

> greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our

> wills and lives over to that Power.

>

> William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we

> should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM.

>

> Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives

> over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven,

> wherein we are admonished to give our lives a

> thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and

> restitutions are without question divine commands.

>

> James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step,

> where we make use of our newly found powers.

>

> And all we need to do in the St. James passage is

> to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less

> and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a

> matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we

> were very definitely fatherless and widows.

>

> The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly.

> There is not an ethical religion in the world today

> that does not teach to a great extent the principles

> of Love, Charity and Good Will.

>

> The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who

> will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the

> great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social

> justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one

> of our finest examples of helping one another. When

> a member of the family gets into trouble of any

> kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally

> around with advice, admonition, and even financial

> assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason

> there are not more Jewish members of AA. The

> family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic

> problem.

>

> Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the

> poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler,

> and conduct themselves with personal dignity.

>

> Consider the eight-part program laid down in

> Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right

> action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness

> and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy,

> as exemplified by these eight points, could be

> literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or

> addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal

> love and welfare of others rather than

> considerations of self are basic to Buddhism.

>

> The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit.

> Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility

> and serenity.

>

> St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order."

> We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered.

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3167 ArtSheehan
RE: God as we understand Him God as we understand Him 2/13/2006 4:46:00 PM


Hi Archie



On the matter of "God as we understand Him" it might be useful to

examine more of the pamphlet "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics

Anonymous." The pamphlet is far more historically endearing than it is

factually enlightening.



Section IV of the pamphlet contains citations from Allan Menzies,

William James, Immanuel Kant, James Henry Leuba and "The General

Epistle of James" 1:27 (also called "The Book of James" in other

literature). In the 2nd paragraph of section IV it states:



"Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history-philosophers,

psychologists, educators-have to say about religion. Note that none of

them, with the exception of St James, is a professional religionist."



Ouch!



James is the brother of Jesus. He was a martyr for his faith and is

the source of the maxim "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17). I

had to wince at describing him as a "professional religionist." But

this is the difficulty that occurs when a member's (or group of

members') viewpoint is given the aura of factual history when it is no

more than the substance of opinion.



The pamphlet goes on to creatively cite from William James' "The

Varieties of Religious Experience:"



"Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of

individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves

to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine."



The pamphlet then creatively interprets the citation as "William

James, stripped of verbiage, states that we should believe in God AS

WE UNDERSTAND HIM."



Well William James has been stripped of verbiage. He didn't quite

state what is being attributed to him. An accurate and contextually

complete citation would read:



"Religion, therefore, as I now ask you arbitrarily to take it, shall

mean for us THE FEELINGS, ACTS, AND EXPERIENCES OF INDIVIDUAL MEN IN

THEIR SOLITUDE, SO FAR AS THEY APPREHEND THEMSELVES TO STAND IN

RELATION TO WHATEVER THEY MAY CONSIDER THE DIVINE. Since the relation

may be either moral, physical, or ritual, it is evident that out of

religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies,

and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow. In these

lectures, however, as I have already said, the immediate personal

experiences will amply fill our time, and we shall hardly consider

theology or ecclesiasticism at all."



As far as the assertion about what William James stated, I'd put it in

the same niche as the description of St James being a "professional

religionist." It's probably well intended but not at all well stated.

It's much more poetic license rather than a concise summation of

James' magnificent book.



William James didn't write about a variety of understandings. He wrote

about a variety of experiences and conversions (some occurring

suddenly and some occurring gradually). His book certainly allowed the

notion of individual understandings of God among the varieties of

religious experiences but I wouldn't focus on William James as the

primary source of the notion.



In AA history, it is likely that William James' book helped to

reinforce a notion already planted beforehand by Ebby T and the Oxford

Group. Bill W was given the book "Varieties ..." during his last stay

at Towns Hospital by either Ebby T or Rowland H.



Something else occurred prior to that is likely more relevant and

described in the Big Book (which is sometimes underappreciated for the

rich history it contains). In Chapter 1, Bill W recounts a poignant

and profound revelation for which Ebby T deserves credit along with

the Oxford Group:



[Big Book pg 12]



"Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the

vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain

antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God

personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I

could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind

or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the

Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with

scores of men who felt the same way.



My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't

you choose your own conception of God?"



That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in

whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the

sunlight at last.



It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater

than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I

saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of

complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I

have it? Of course I would!



Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want

Him enough. At long last I saw, I felt, I believed. Scales of pride

and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view."



This goes on to be repeated and reinforced throughout the remaining

chapters of the Big Book. Choosing one's own conception of God also

has the brilliance that the individual cannot blame anyone else for

the understanding and that they are responsible for it - good or bad.



As for the addition of "God as we understand Him" in the 12 Steps

(along with "Power greater than ourselves") both Jim B and Hank P are

credited with being the primary influence ("AA Comes of Age" pgs

166-167). Both claimed to be atheists at the time.



Although James' book was popular reading in early AA, the Oxford

Group's principles and practices (and Sam Shoemaker) carried much

influence - probably more than William James even though he is

mentioned twice in the Big Book.



Other influences such as Emmet Fox in "Power Through Constructive

Thinking" and "Sermon on the Mount" and a number of other authors and

books cannot be excluded either for their influence in both NY and

Akron. Dick B, in his writings about the Rev Sam Shoemaker, offers

quite a number of enlightening citations from Shoemaker's writings -

among them:



"Security lies in a faith in God which includes an experiment. It lies

in believing that God is" (Shoemaker, National Awakening, pp. 40-41).



"When we come to believe in God at all, we come to believe in Him as

having something definite to say about our lives. To believe in the

fact of the will of God is only to believe in God in the concrete"

(Shoemaker, Religion That Works, p. 55).



"Opening their minds to as much of God as he understood, removing

first the hindrance of self-will" (Shoemaker, Children of the Second

Birth, p. 47).



What I'm driving at is I don't see how the notion of "God as you

understand Him" can be attributed to a single primary source. It has

far too much of an ecumenical nature for conversion and redemption.



The idea certainly has served AA well - except when degraded to the

level of "door knob" and other things of that ilk. (Rule #62).



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Archie Bunkers

Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him



This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf



"William James, stripped of verbiage, says that

we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM."



Is William James the source of the Big Book

phrase "God as we understand him"??



Archie B.



________________________________



From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana)



The passage which Archie quotes is from one

of the four pamphlets we possess which

were written by the early AA people in Akron.

They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous,"

"Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous,"

"A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics

Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled

"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous.



In the passage in question, which says "William

James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should

believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM,"

it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron

believed, not that William James wrote that line,

but instead were agreeing that adding "as we

understand Him" to the references to God in the

twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief

that people of different personality types needed

different types of spirituality and different kinds

of conceptions of God.



"God as we understand Him" was not a quote

from James however, as they give it in this

pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we

understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what

James was saying in the long quotation which they

give from him, where James says "Religion shall

mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of

individual men in their solitude, so far as they

apprehend themselves to stand in relation to

whatever they may consider the divine."



The early Akron AA people were clearly saying

in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the

teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and

freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who

followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great

Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and

Buddhists, could all join together in following the

twelve steps and could understand why following

these spiritual guides to action could lead us to

the higher spiritual life.



Here is that particular section of the pamphlet,

which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that

section, so the group can read in context what

the early Akron AA people believed:

_____________________________________



"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous"



Part IV



BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the

nebulous side, we are offered more concrete

guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality.

It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even

though it seems so at first.



Let's examine what some of the fine minds of

history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators --

have to say about religion. Note that none of them,

with the exception of St. James, is a professional

religionist.



"Religion is the worship of higher powers from a

sense of need." --Allan Menzies.



"Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and

experiences of individual men in their solitude, so

far as they apprehend themselves to stand in

relation to whatever they may consider the divine."

-- William James.



"Religion is the recognition of all our duties as

divine commands."--Immanual Kant.



"Religion is that part of human experience in

which man feels himself in relation with powers

of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and

makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba.



"Pure religion and undefiled before our God and

Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows

in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted

from the world."--The General Epistle of James,

1:27.



One cannot but be impressed with the similarity

of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps.



The Menzies definition is nothing more than a

condensed version of the first three steps wherein

we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power

greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our

wills and lives over to that Power.



William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we

should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM.



Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives

over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven,

wherein we are admonished to give our lives a

thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and

restitutions are without question divine commands.



James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step,

where we make use of our newly found powers.



And all we need to do in the St. James passage is

to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less

and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a

matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we

were very definitely fatherless and widows.



The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly.

There is not an ethical religion in the world today

that does not teach to a great extent the principles

of Love, Charity and Good Will.



The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who

will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the

great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social

justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one

of our finest examples of helping one another. When

a member of the family gets into trouble of any

kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally

around with advice, admonition, and even financial

assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason

there are not more Jewish members of AA. The

family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic

problem.



Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the

poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler,

and conduct themselves with personal dignity.



Consider the eight-part program laid down in

Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right

action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness

and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy,

as exemplified by these eight points, could be

literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or

addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal

love and welfare of others rather than

considerations of self are basic to Buddhism.



The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit.

Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility

and serenity.



St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order."

We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered.











Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3168 RDUBYA
Re: Experience, strength, and hope Experience, strength, and hope 2/13/2006 8:06:00 PM


Penny,



Pleae look at the last line of the Forward to the third edition of Alcoholics

Anonymous.



Roger W.







Penny <ipenny12@yahoo.com> wrote:

Where did the phrase share our experience, strength

and hope come from?



In love and sobriety

Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00

Roanoke Virginia



Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is

greater than the fear of letting go!

Never assume some one knows you love them,

take the time to tell them.









SPONSORED LINKS

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recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous



---------------------------------

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Roger M Weed

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0 -1 0 0
3169 Mitchell K.
RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/13/2006 7:55:00 PM


It appears that someone has no idea what the book I

wrote was based upon or the fact that it wasn't just

Clarence's bio but an historical account of early

Cleveland AA.



Only a small part of the book was based upon

interviews with Clarence. Dozens of oral histories of

early AA members in AA archival repositories -

including AAGSO - were used. Several thousands of

pages of original documents from Cleveland and other

archival repositories including AAGSO, Stepping Stones

etc were used. A couple hundred hours of live,

in-person and phone interviews of long-term members

and friends of AA were used. Over 11 years of

extensive research, writing and review went into the

book.



Your constant efforts to malign and discredit the book

continues to illuminate your own agenda here. The

name, Jane S. does not appear in any of the early

Cleveland archival materials or dozens of meeting

rosters or histories of all the original groups

compiled by Norm E., the recording statistician from

the Cleveland Central Committee in the early 1940's.



Cheers



> I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should

> be a factor as

> opposed to just when someone might have first showed

> up. Bill and Bob

> had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and

> Eddie R) prior to

> Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the

> legendary "Lil."

>

> Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R

> for primacy and my

> vote goes to Florence.

>

> Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated

> Clarence S (the

> acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is

> not recalled in

> Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on

> interviews with

> Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits

> other than being

> mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along

> with "Lil."

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

>

> __________________________________

>

> Message 3142 from:

> Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>

> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers]

> First woman was Jane S., not Florence

>

> Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then

>

> it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who

> was the first woman working the program of what

> became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's

> sobriety?"

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3170 Mitchell K.
Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/14/2006 12:22:00 AM


The October 1944 issue of the Cleveland (Ohio) Central

Bulletin announced the first Young People's meeting:

"Age is no barrier if you wish to participate in the

meeting of one of the newest groups, organized in

October. The group calls itself the Young People's

Group and it was formed by several of the younger

A.A.'s...20's - 30's. But they stress the fact that

they do not exclude 'oldsters' from their meetings."



The group met on Wednesdays at 8:30 PM in the West

Side Evangelical Hall on West 38th Street and Bridge.











--- Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote:



> The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was

> started February 1946 by

> Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being

> under 30 years of age they

> thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with

> the younger alcoholic. They

> started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA

> under 35 years of age. The

> group had several female members. They felt they

> could deal with members who

> were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as

> older members. They had

> parties, picnic's and other social events as well

> as the AA meetings.

> Several years ago,at a workshop that had several

> original group members,

> I remember Pat C saying that she and several

> other members of the group

> got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st

> Young Peoples convention.Most

> of those that attended the workshop had a love of

> life and of each other and

> were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety.

> The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday,

> February 14th at 7 P.M. at

> 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania.

> Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups

> before that date. I think

> there may have been another group in the Los Angeles

> area.

> Yours in Service,

> Shakey Mike G.

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3171 Veda
Re: "burning desire" "burning desire" 2/13/2006 9:16:00 PM


I don't know about the "burning desire" but "do the next right thing" comes

from the story of Dr. Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now named

Acceptance Is The Answer". And the saying "It works if you work it" comes

from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says "It works it really does".



-------Original Message-------



From: hesofine2day

Date: 02/13/06 00:11:05

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "burning desire"



I have an idea that many of the expressions and

conventions in AA these days have seeped in from

NA and/or treatment centers.



Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have

a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting?



Also where did the expression "do the next right

thing" come from?



And finally saying "It works if you work it" after

the Lord's prayer.

________________________________



From the moderator:



Raymond I., who shows up in my book about

old time AA in northern Indiana

(see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html)

frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with

a burning desire." He says he didn't make up

this phrase, but that it was something that other

people also said back in the old days.



"Old time" is relative.



Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was

trained by the old-time black AA members who came

into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk

treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that

everybody chants at the end of their meetings.



So I think that in the form "you must want it with

a burning desire," the words go back to a period

before all the psychobabble and high school

cheerleading type stuff.



The great heyday of the treatment centers funded

by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to

the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior

to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from

that source.



But can anybody trace "you must want it with a

burning desire" back before the 1970's?



"Modern AA" and "old time AA" are both relative

terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very

different from 1938, 1939 is very different from

1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or

1949. The 1960's were very different from the

1950's. AA was going through continuous change

and development during that whole period. But

it was working effectively and continuing to

grow and expand at an enormous rate.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)











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0 -1 0 0
3172 j_oys5672
Re: "burning desire" "burning desire" 2/14/2006 8:01:00 AM


Frank M. from Illinois early on in his story makes the statement "It

works if you work

it and it dont't if you don't. I do not know if he is the originator of this

statement. As i

have been told many times nothing in Alcoholics Anonymous is Original !





Jerry O.





Southern MN. Area 36 Archivist


0 -1 0 0
3173 j_oys5672
Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker 2/14/2006 8:12:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, sbanker914@

... wrote:



Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio

tape was slipped into a purchase of books I

had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long

gone). It turned out to be a wonderful talk

by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of

Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think.

I don't remember specifics of the tape very

well, but I'll never forget Gertrude ....

I wonder if anyone else ever heard that

tape or remembers Gertrude.



Susan Banker

NYC

____________________________________________



It may just possibly be Gert B. If my memory

serves me right I believe she was living in

Iowa a number of years ago and I don't know

if she is still living. I have three tapes

by Gert B.

Jerry





Southern MN. Area 35 Archivist


0 -1 0 0
3174 Russ Hillard
Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/14/2006 12:01:00 PM


Well, that didn't take long....



See http://www.doctoryourself.com/hoffer_niacin.html - to pique your interest

here is an excerpt:



"The term vitamin B-3 was reintroduced by my friend Bill W., co-founder of

Alcoholics Anonymous, (Bill Wilson). We met in New York in 1960. Humphry Osmond

and I introduced him to the concept of mega vitamin therapy. We described the

results we had seen with our schizophrenic patients, some of whom were also

alcoholic. We also told him about its many other properties. It was therapeutic

for arthritis, for some cases of senility and it lowered cholesterol levels.

Bill was very curious about it and began to take niacin, 3 g daily. Within a

few weeks fatigue and depression which had plagued him for years were gone. He

gave it to 30 of his close friends in AA and persuaded them to try it. Within 6

months he was convinced that it would be very helpful to alcoholics. Of the

thirty, 10 were free of anxiety, tension and depression in one month. Another 10

were well in two months. He decided that the chemical or medical terms for this

vitamin were not appropriate. He wanted to persuade members of AA, especially

the doctors in AA, that this would be a useful addition to treatment and he

needed a term that could be more readily popularized. He asked me the names that

had been used. I told him it was originally known as vitamin B-3. This was the

term Bill wanted. In his first report to physicians in AA he called it "The

Vitamin B-3 Therapy." Thousands of copies of this extraordinary pamphlet were

distributed. Eventually the name came back and today

even the most conservative medical journals are using the term vitamin B-3.

Bill became unpopular with the members of the board of AA International. The

medical members who had been appointed by Bill, felt that he had no business

messing about with treatment using vitamins. They also "knew" vitamin B-3 could

not be therapeutic as Bill had found it to be. For this reason Bill provided

information to the medical members of AA outside of the National Board,

distributing three of his amazing pamphlets. They are now not readily

available."



Regards,



Russ HIllard



JOHN e REID <jre33756@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession

on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where

this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and

interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide

me with an electronic copy.



Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and

walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot,

having "done" my first 4 & 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3

months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the

1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct & personal guidance from Wesley

Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions

Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting

against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA

jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out.



Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a

shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and

mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit

from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings

list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA

material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to

me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which

included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill

Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also

suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt & pepper shaker, so as I

would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I

will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need

Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual

hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental)

hopelessness of the disease.



Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold

Disease!!!!

Kind Regards, John R



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













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0 -1 0 0
3175 Russ Hillard
Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/14/2006 11:54:00 AM


Hi All -



John's inquiry below has prompted me to look around a bit. The search has

just started, but I have found that Dr Abram Hoffer knew Bill W and he is

apparently the original source of Bill's interest in niacin (one of the

B-complex vitamins) for the treatment of alcoholism.



Dr Andrew Saul has written extensively on the importance of nutritional

factors (including, but not limited to, B-complex vitamins) in the treatment of

alcoholism. For a quick introduction you might look at

http://www.doctoryourself.com/alcoholism.html



If I turn up anything really historical I'll let you know.



Best regards,



Russ Hillard



JOHN e REID <jre33756@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession

on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where

this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and

interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide

me with an electronic copy.



Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and

walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot,

having "done" my first 4 & 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3

months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the

1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct & personal guidance from Wesley

Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions

Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting

against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA

jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out.



Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a

shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and

mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit

from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings

list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA

material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to

me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which

included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill

Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also

suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt & pepper shaker, so as I

would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I

will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need

Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual

hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental)

hopelessness of the disease.



Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold

Disease!!!!

Kind Regards, John R



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













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0 -1 0 0
3176 ArtSheehan
RE: Experience, strength, and hope Experience, strength, and hope 2/14/2006 5:52:00 PM


Hi Penny



"Experience, strength and hope" first appeared in the June 1947

Grapevine. That issue carried the introduction of what we today call

the "AA Preamble." It was written by Tom Y, Grapevine's first editor

and was based on the foreword to the 1st edition Big Book.



The full text of the preamble and after-notes, as it read then in the

June 1947 Grapevine was:



Alcoholics Anonymous



Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share, their

experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve

their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.



The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop

drinking. A.A. has no dues or fees. It is not allied with any sect,

denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to

engage in any controversy, and neither endorses nor opposes any

causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other

alcoholics to achieve sobriety.



The A.A. Program of Recovery is incorporated in The 12 Steps. The A.A.

book of experience, Alcoholics Anonymous, and other literature,

including The 12 Points of Tradition, are available through any group

or the Central Office, P.O. Box 459, Grand Central Annex, New York 17,

N. Y.



The term "experience, strength and hope" was also incorporated into

the Foreword to the 3rd edition Big Book. Not that long ago it became

the title for the anthology containing the personal stories deleted

from prior editions of the Big Book.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Penny

Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:15 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Experience, strength, and hope



Where did the phrase share our experience, strength

and hope come from?



In love and sobriety

Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00

Roanoke Virginia



Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is

greater than the fear of letting go!

Never assume some one knows you love them,

take the time to tell them.











Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3177 sunnykhill12
Self-Support Self-Support 2/14/2006 2:54:00 PM


Was there an article in the Grapevine or in some other publication

that suggested a $1 per meeting donation in the meeting basket? If

so, what year was it published. I am seeing my Area and District

struggle financially because groups only have enough money to cover

their own expenses with the $1 mentality.

Any information would help - I have been asked to do a self-support

workshop.

Thanks,

Sunny H.

Little Rock, AR


0 -1 0 0
3178 David G.
RE: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker 2/15/2006 5:35:00 PM


Dear Ms. Baker,



Check out the link below to the biography of Gertrude Behanna.



Text and Real Audio tapes are available.



http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm#biog





Dave

Illinois

USA















Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker

Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:16:44 EST



Dear Art,



I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list

very much.



Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a

purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone).

It turned

out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of

Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of

the tape

very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged

when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr.

Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I

remember her

telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had

filled up with needy women in early recovery.



I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another

recovering woman.



I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude.



Susan B.

NYC









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3179 greatcir@comcast.net>
AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living 2/15/2006 12:51:00 AM


In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake

on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for

alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic

beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall.



My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities?

Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small

developments) established over the years?



I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the

possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families

and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have

not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we

are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning

guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement

living.



Pete Kopcsak

Nashville, TN


0 -1 0 0
3180 Cheryl F
"More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/16/2006 12:51:00 PM


Does anyone know where the phrase "More will be revealed" came from? Someone

asked me the other day and I can't find it in the literature. Of course that

might mean I haven't read something I need to have read anyway yet.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3181 Fred
Dr. Bob`s Nightmare Dr. Bob`s Nightmare 2/16/2006 10:38:00 AM


Attending an archives workshop we came across an interesting question,

on page 175 there is mention of Dr. Bob`s father sending a doctor from

their hometown to bring him back there. Which consequently kept Dr.

Bob in bed for the NEXT 2 months before he could eventually venture

out of the house.Suffering from the effects of his alcoholoic behavior

certainly required some medical attention during this convelescence.We

could not determine the DOCTORS name who brought Dr. Bob back to St.

Johnsbury for this rehabilation attempt.Does anyone know of the NAME

of this DOCTOR from St. Johnsbury,Vt.

Inquisitively Grateful,

Fred


0 -1 0 0
3182 Bruce A. Johanson
RE: Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker 2/17/2006 1:36:00 AM


Or it could be this Gertrude?



http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm



Great story of her!



Bruce A. Johanson


0 -1 0 0
3183 Joe Nugent
RE: AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living 2/17/2006 2:04:00 AM


Hi Pete,

there is no longer a camp Ouendake on Beausoleil Island which is located in

Georgian Bay, Ontario, This is a web site that can give you some information

re. this Island http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/on/georg/natcul/natcul3_e.asp

enjoy

Joe N.



_____



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greatcir@comcast.net

Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:51 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living





In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake

on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for

alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic

beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall.



My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities?

Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small

developments) established over the years?



I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the

possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families

and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have

not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we

are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning

guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement

living.



Pete Kopcsak

Nashville, TN


0 -1 0 0
3184 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: "burning desire" "burning desire" 2/17/2006 4:13:00 AM


Is this just opinion?



I have read Dr Paul's story again just now and see

nothing in there that I feel resembles that quote

and "It works it really does," seems a far cry from

the mindless chant heard at a lot of meetings.



At some of my groups, after the end of the Lord's

prayer, we say......STAY.



Chuck Parkhurst

______________________________



Responding to Message 3171 from "Veda"

<mcveda@yahoo.com> (mcveda at yahoo.com)



I don't know about the "burning desire" but "do

the next right thing" comes from the story of Dr.

Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now

named "Acceptance Is The Answer".



And the saying "It works if you work it" comes

from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says

"It works it really does."

______________________________



Which was a response to Message 3158 from

<hesofine2day@yahoo.com> (hesofine2day at yahoo.com)



Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have

a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting?



Also where did the expression "do the next right

thing" come from?



And finally saying "It works if you work it" after

the Lord's prayer.

______________________________



From the moderator:



I presume that Veda's reference to Dr. Paul's

story is referring to the next to last paragraph,

which says:



"Acceptance is the key to my relationship with

God today. I never just sit and do nothing

while waiting for Him to tell me what to do.

Rather, I do whatever is in front of me to be

done, and I leave the results up to Him; however

it turns out, that's God's will for me."



So on the basis of those two references to the

Big Book, it looks like we would have to say that

"It works if you work it" is not a precise

quotation from the Big Book, although it has

some parallels to the phrase "It works it

really does."



I would see it myself as more of an attempt

to summarize an important part of the message

at the beginning of chapter 5 in the Big Book,

where it says things such as "Rarely have we

seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed

our path" and "If you have decided you want

what we have and are willing to go to any

length to get it -- then you are ready to

take certain steps."



And "do the next right thing" is also not a

precise quotation from the Big Book, although

it could be regarded as a summary of the next

to last paragraph of Dr. Paul's story.



The problem here is that, if "do the next right

thing" was already circulating as an AA slogan

prior to the publication of the third edition

of the Big Book in 1955, then what Dr. Paul

said could have been an expansion of the idea

contained in that AA slogan instead of vice

versa.



So far though, none of our members have given

us any information about WHEN "burning desire"

or "do the next right thing" or "it works if

you work it" first started being used as slogans

in AA circles, let alone who might have devised

these phrases.



Until we have at least some approximate dates,

we are, as Chuck points out, just guessing.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
3185 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: "More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/17/2006 5:00:00 AM


Cheryl



Though the phrase "more will be revealed" is

heard way too frequently at AA meetings, it

appears nowhere in the basic text of the book

Alcoholics Anonymous. It is another example

of many people at our meetings claiming "the

Big Book says," when in fact our textbook says

nothing of the sort. The closest thing to that

expression in our book is on pg 164 and states

....."God will constantly disclose more to you

and to us"



The way my sponsor explained it to me when I

first got sober was, I need not wait for more

to be revealed (when?!?) as opposed to knowing

that God will constantly disclose things to me,

providing I practice all the principles that the

program requires (our steps).



It is also my understanding that the phrase you

quoted is in the basic text of a book from

another 12-step program, Narcotics Anonymous.

Maybe someone more familiar with that fellowship's

literature can confirm that.



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst


0 -1 0 0
3186 Mel Barger
Re: "More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/17/2006 8:46:00 AM


Hi Cheryl,



I'd say that this was probably suggested by the next to last paragraph in

"A Vision for You," in the Big Book. It says, "We realize we know only a

little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in

your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still

sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order."



Mel Barger


0 -1 0 0
3187 Bob McK.
RE: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/17/2006 8:32:00 AM


The October 1944 Cleveland, Ohio Central Bulletin

mentions formation that month of "The Young

People's Group." Was this the first such group?

I do not know.



In a talk in Akron, historian Ernie Kurtz said

that historians refer to the word "first" as

the "f-word."

_________________________



From the moderator: October 1944 is earlier

than the other citations we have received

from members of this group.


0 -1 0 0
3188 Tom Hickcox
Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/17/2006 10:02:00 AM


At 23:22 2/13/2006 , Mitchell K. wrote:



>The October 1944 issue of the Cleveland (Ohio) Central

>Bulletin announced the first Young People's meeting:

>"Age is no barrier if you wish to participate in the

>meeting of one of the newest groups, organized in

>October. The group calls itself the Young People's

>Group and it was formed by several of the younger

>A.A.'s...20's - 30's. But they stress the fact that

>they do not exclude 'oldsters' from their meetings."

>

>The group met on Wednesdays at 8:30 PM in the West

>Side Evangelical Hall on West 38th Street and Bridge.

>



Mitchell,



Did the meeting survive, as in continue?



The reason I ask is I know of several similar meetings in my local area

that were started but never "took" and petered out after a relatively brief

time, on the order of months.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3189 t
Re: God as we understand Him God as we understand Him 2/17/2006 10:33:00 AM


Big Book page 12

"My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, 'Why don't

you choose your own conception of God?'"



Curious how seldom when this topic gets discussed that Bill's grandfather's

influence, from just two pages earlier, is forgotten.



Big Book page 10

" He talked for hours. Childhood memories rose before me. I could almost hear

the

sound of the preacher’s voice as I sat, on still Sundays, way over there on the

hillside; there was that proffered temperance pledge I never signed; my

grandfather’s

good natured contempt of some church folk and their doings; his insistence that

the

spheres really had their music; but his denial of the preacher’s right to tell

him

how he must listen; his fearlessness as he spoke of these things just before he

died;

these recollections welled up from the past. They made me swallow hard. "


0 -1 0 0
3190 Mel Barger
Re: Bill D. Bill D. 2/17/2006 9:49:00 AM


Hi Ernie,

In November, 1952, I spent the better part of a day with Bill D., who was

AA Number Three. I don't believe he withheld his personal story from the

First Edition because he wanted to be paid for it. He was not that kind of

a guy. My recollection is that he was not excited by the book project and

may have even thought it wasn't necessary. But he did tell me that Bill W.

had come out to Akron and recorded his story for the next edition. I

believe today that the Bill D. story we see in the Big Book was written by

Bill W. from the information he taped and wouldn't have been produced if

Bill W. hadn't taken the initiative in recording Bill D.'s story. Of

course, Bill W. would have then cleared it with Bill D. for accuracy, etc.

For Bill W., that probably meant lugging one of those old-fashioned reel

recorders all the way out to Akron, but it was something he obviously

considered necessary.

Bill D. was a kindly, friendly man who was much loved as the Grand Old Man

of AA in Akron, a role he seemed to have following Dr. Bob's death. But he

didn't have Bill W.'s drive and vision. Maybe that's just as well, as he

never seemed to create trouble for Bill and Bob in their efforts to enlarge

the fellowship. He did have mixed feelings about Bill W., and may have felt

that Bill was getting too much credit. I had heard him called "The Guinea

Pig," but it was clear he didn't like this term. It turns out that Bill W.

used it one day when they were all on the platform at a large meeting, and

he appeared to resent it. Bill W. also told me that Bill D.'s feelings

about him were "ambivalent," so Bill D. wasn't entirely in Bill W.'s corner.

But he did cooperate with Bill W. on important matters and was even the

first delegate from the Akron area.

Bill D. had a marveous wife, Henrietta, whose prayers and support were

probably a factor in his getting sober. She was a matron at the Akron City

Workhouse, and I even visited her in her office there in 1958. She was

still living in 1980 just after "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was

published. I went out to visit her and even read portions of the book that

applied to her and Bill D. By that time, she was blind and living with her

son and his family. I find myself almost in tears when I recall that visit.

Mel Barger

_____________________



Responding to the message from Ernie K.:



Mel and interested others,



Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976,

Nell Wing for sure and, I think, trustee George G.

told me that Bill D's story was not in the first

edition because he wanted to be paid for it.



At best third-hand hearsay to you, but . . . .



ernie k.


0 -1 0 0
3191 diazeztone
Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/17/2006 9:57:00 PM


I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi)

preamble, Dallas, Texas.



She wrote the story "Flower of the South."

She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas.



Anybody have any idea how many different AA

talks there are by her which are still

obtainable??



LD Pierce

editor aabibliograpy.com


0 -1 0 0
3192 Mel Barger
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/18/2006 9:07:00 AM


Hi Sunny,



Maybe you are thinking of the current article, "A Buck in the Basket" in

the February 2006 Grapevine. The author, Jack H., is actually suggesting

two bucks, in view of growing inflation and rising expenses for groups.

Jack is a friend of mine and worked real hard to get that article published.

I am still having a hard time upping my contributions to $2, but I'm sure

I'll get to that point soon.



Mel Barger


0 -1 0 0
3193 Mike and Sarah
Re: Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? 2/20/2006 10:19:00 AM


Hello Steve -



Yes, she did.



Mike D.

Houston, TX

SETA Archives



__________________________

From: Steve Leeds <sleeds@canyonridge.org>

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill Wilson and

Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention?



Hey All,



I have a cassette tape that is marked Sister

Ignatia and Bill Wilson -Longbeach Convention.

The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but

I am looking for confermation that the womens

voice is that of Sister Ignatia. Could anyone

confirm that she did speak with Bill at that

convention?


0 -1 0 0
3194 Jerry Oys
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/20/2006 7:29:00 PM


--- sunnykhill12 <SunnyKHill12@hotmail.com> wrote:



> Was there an article in the Grapevine or in some

> other publication

> that suggested a $1 per meeting donation in the

> meeting basket? If

> so, what year was it published. I am seeing my Area

> and District

> struggle financially because groups only have enough

> money to cover

> their own expenses with the $1 mentality.

> Any information would help - I have been asked to

> do a self-support

> workshop.

> Thanks,

> Sunny H.

> Little Rock, AR

>

> There are many Grapeviine articles addressing Self

-Support written by Bill W. and I belive others. If

you subscribe to the Grapevine for $10.00 a year you

can acess the Grapevine Digital archives and do a

search on Self- Support and they will all popup.

>

> FYI - The idea or thought suggesting the putting of

$2.00 in the basket as it was passed around the room

or table appeared in a Grapevine Article in 1950 by

Bill.

>

> In the time period of 1986 / 1990 and possibly later

GSO produced a green binder titled Self Support. It

contained various pieces of materiasl. The most

significant piece to me is the piece titled The

Challage of the Seventh Tradition. GSO also prouduced

a flyer showing a hand with 2 $1.00 bills haging from

it. Which believe was in the same time period. I

have the binder in my posession. I hope this helps

you in your venture. Sometimes Quickly ,Sometimes

Slowly. In I Alcoohlics Anonymous have learned from

my experience that We can't hear until we can hear and

We can't see until we can see!



In

Service





Jerry



Southern MN.

Area 36 Archivist



__________________________________________________

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0 -1 0 0
3195 johnlawlee
Re: movie slang movie slang 2/20/2006 8:33:00 PM


Never heard the cliche, "Do the next right thing" until the Spike Lee

movie "Do the Right Thing" was released in 1989. It's street slang,

the type commonly used by professional athletes as they're leaving

their third halfway house. No God. No Steps. Just me, deciding what

the next right thing might be. Managing my life again, just like the

old days.

john lee


0 -1 0 0
3196 Chris Budnick
RE: "More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/20/2006 10:50:00 PM


Chapter Ten of Narcotics Anonymous, commonly referred to as the Basic Text,

is titled More Will Be Revealed. It is the last chapter in Book One of the

text, which contains the program of Narcotics Anonymous. Book Two contains

the personal stories.





Chris



Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
3197 billyk
The Late Liz The Late Liz 2/21/2006 4:40:00 AM


i checked out this web site and also the IMB (internet movie

database). the movie "the late liz" indeed was made in 1971

and starred ann baxter (extremely well acclaimed actress as

would be attested by our history lover elders).



i've never seen the movie and so my question is (and i'm

asking anyone), should this movie be added to our history

lover's database. it would seem so.



any input would be appreciated - direct them to me as to not

clog up the group mail (billyk3@yahoo.com).



thanks - be good to yourselves,

billyk


0 -1 0 0
3198 Gene
Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? 2/21/2006 2:47:00 PM


When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and

listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time

after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a

show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York.

I learned that he coined the expression...

"One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"...

I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his

life...

Does anyone know more about him?

I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly

weeping alone in my room.



It keeps getting better

Gene in Westchester


0 -1 0 0
3199 billyk
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/21/2006 5:02:00 AM


i have to comment here. one of my sponsors once told me

that since i was one of the lucky ones that didn't lose

the wife, family, house etc., and that i was 'doing okay',

i should put in the basket what i spent of booze. well...

if that were the case, our clubhouse would be adding a

mighty fine addition to the building.



but i read that article too (in grapevine, feb 2006) and i

thought it was well written and really brought home the

fact that inflation really has been ignored. and maybe,

people should up their donation to $2 if just once in a while.



but, something i learned from a close friend in the fellowship.

i give exactly a dollar a day. if it's been 3 days since

my last meeting, i give $4 (which is usually a five cause i

don't have four ones). and i always look for the opportunity

to do a little more like buy the newcomer a big book or support

a clubhouse activity (any clubhouse-not just mine).



i can't put a price on my sobriety, but the fact remains that

in this world, rent, coffee, materials, etc., all costs money.



that fellow who wrote the grapevine article said it all at the

end. "i am responsible......" and i accept that responsibilty

with a glad heart.



billyk


0 -1 0 0
3200 trixiebellaa
Silkworth''s theory Silkworth''s theory 2/19/2006 2:27:00 PM


Hi history lovers, can you please tell us if any of the other doctors

at the Charles Townes Hospital agreed or disagreed with Dr Silkworth's

allergy theory, thank you.


0 -1 0 0
3201 Julie
RE: "More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/23/2006 3:00:00 AM


Found it in alanon book.

"How Alanon Works" on page 68 under Easy Does It

"If the time is right, more will be revealed."



Chris Budnick <cbudnick@nc.rr.com> wrote: Chapter Ten of Narcotics

Anonymous, commonly referred to as the Basic Text,

is titled More Will Be Revealed. It is the last chapter in Book One of the

text, which contains the program of Narcotics Anonymous. Book Two contains

the personal stories.





Chris



Raleigh, NC











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0 -1 0 0
3202 rfuhrman1011@comcast.net>
RE: Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? 2/23/2006 10:40:00 AM


http://www.440.com/favesw.html this is web site about the history of AM

radio and mentions Big Joe







Rob Fuhrman



Huntington, IN







-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gene

Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:47 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"?







When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and

listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time

after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a

show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York.

I learned that he coined the expression...

"One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"...

I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his

life...

Does anyone know more about him?

I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly

weeping alone in my room.



It keeps getting better

Gene in Westchester





















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0 -1 0 0
3203 jocis007@aol.com
Re: Re: movie slang movie slang 2/22/2006 11:41:00 PM


do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these

responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you assume

them." from

chapter 7





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3204 ArtSheehan
RE: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/23/2006 9:00:00 AM


Hi LD



Based on research I've been doing for the last few years, I'm fairly

certain that the so-called "Esther's Preamble" should not be

attributed to her as her invention. If you are referring to what is

also sometimes called the "Texas Preamble" I don't believe that my

home state of Texas should be credited with its invention either. As a

resident of Arlington, TX I don't pass this on with enthusiasm but I'm

doing extensive research for publication of a paper on how AA started

in Fort Worth and Dallas. There is much myth surrounding this.



A January 1945 article was submitted to the Grapevine by Merle S of

Dallas, TX saluting Esther E as starting AA in Dallas upon her arrival

in 1943. However, evidence exists, in GSO Archives news-clipping

scrapbooks that AA started in Dallas as early as 1941.



Due to the impact of mobilization for World War II, early Dallas

pioneers were eventually relocated elsewhere through war work or

service in the armed forces. Esther E certainly was a pioneer in

revitalizing AA in Dallas. A woman she sponsored, by the name of Anne

T, similarly helped revitalize AA in Fort Worth during the difficult

war years of the early to mid-1940’s. Ester was also very instrumental

in helping to start AA in San Antonio.



A remarkable series of correspondence between Esther and Bobbie B,

AA’s second national Secretary, provide a detailed history of the

development of AA in Dallas and Fort Worth. One thing that can be

definitely stated about Esther is that she was a remarkable woman and

a natural historian. Her correspondence with Bobbie has revealed

information I've been searching for about 3 years now. There is no

doubt in my mind that Esther's correspondence provides the definitive

history for how AA originated in the Fort Worth/Dallas metroplex (as

well as a few other Texas locations).



In regard to the preamble, several variations are attributed to

different locations in the US. Barring the discovery of dated source

documents, the establishment of primacy is probably beyond possibility

at this point in time. The preamble contains material from the "Akron

Manual" (c 1940)as well as extracts from the 1st edition Big Book

Foreword and basic text.



The earliest genuine copy of the preamble I've been able to locate

locally is in a 1946 document in the archives of the Harbor Club in

Fort Worth, TX. The preamble originated some years prior to that but I

haven't been able yet to locate an earlier original or facsimile.



I'll send you some additional material to your web site email address

unless you want me to send it to a different address.



Cheers

Arthur





-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diazeztone

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:57 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Ester's preamble, Dallas, Texas



I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi)

preamble, Dallas, Texas.



She wrote the story "Flower of the South."

She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas.



Anybody have any idea how many different AA

talks there are by her which are still

obtainable??



LD Pierce

editor aabibliograpy.com





















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3205 johnpublico
Re: Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? 2/23/2006 1:39:00 AM


Gene:



I've heard that Big Joe's show was underwritten by the Salvation Army

and was one of the first call-in shows on radio (you only heard his

voice). It promoted people helping one another and had a strong

spiritual angle. This is Rosenfeld's obituary as it appeared in The

New York Times:



-------------------

Published: December 19, 1987



LEAD: Joe Rosenfield Jr., who was the host of a radio talk show

called ''The Happiness Exchange'' for many years, died on Nov. 22 at

a nursing home in Falmouth, Me., after a long illness. He was 86

years old.



Joe Rosenfield Jr., who was the host of a radio talk show

called ''The Happiness Exchange'' for many years, died on Nov. 22 at

a nursing home in Falmouth, Me., after a long illness. He was 86

years old.



Mr. Rosenfield, who was known as Big Joe, did a nighttime show during

what was called ''the insomnia stretch'' from 2 to 5 A.M. Broadcast

over several New York radio stations from 1949 to 1962, the show

raised large sums in contributions by letting the unfortunate air

their troubles.



Born and raised in Tennessee, Mr. Rosenfield began his first

nighttime program with his son, Joe 3d, in New Orleans. His nickname,

Big Joe, evolved to differentiate him from his son.



Mr. Rosenfield is survived by his second wife, Ruth, of Falmouth,

Me.; a son, Joe, of Acton, Mass., and a daughter, Dorothy Fisher-

Smith, of Ashland, Ore.; six grandchildren, and six great-

grandchildren.



---------------

I didn't listen to Big Joe, myself. I'd listen to Jean Shepherd on

WOR, keeping the volume low so my parents wouldn't know I was up so

late on a school night.



I'll never forget how Shepherd would tell you to put your radio on

the window sill and turn the volume all the way up; then he

would "hurl an invective" at your neighbors. Something like, "I

can't stand this neighborhood. Take your goddamn wash off the

line!!" Just the sort of thing for a somewhat demented 14 year-old.



John K in Charlotte















--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" <genesclean@...> wrote:

>

> When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and

> listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold

time

> after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a

> show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York.

> I learned that he coined the expression...

> "One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"...

> I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his

> life...

> Does anyone know more about him?

> I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall

quietly

> weeping alone in my room.

>

> It keeps getting better

> Gene in Westchester

>


0 -1 0 0
3206 timderan
RE: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/24/2006 2:03:00 AM


"Texas Preamble"





Art:



One thing I vaguely remember is that the so called "Texas Preamble" appeared

once in the Grapevine several years ago. I do not remember the month or

year, but, I remember reading it there. You might know something of it or

want to look into it.



tmd


0 -1 0 0
3207 Mike and Sarah
Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 2/20/2006 12:01:00 PM


2-20-06





Dear MK -



Just finally getting to read a great deal of saved AA History Lovers E-mails.

Wow. Just a question.

Regarding an e-mail from you on January 26,06 regarding galleys, Cornwall,

Living Sober, etc.



My question, regarding the friend of Barry. Maybe also even just yourself? I

have been wondering about

the 'Bill's Birthday talk' that he gave at NY Intergroup every year. Especially

the final talk

of Bill at the NY Intergroup event which was held on or close to his own

birthday...

'69, '70? Do you, or did Barry and/or his friend know if a recording of this

event ever was made?

Was / is it an item held in the archives of GSO? I have asked them about it...no

response as of yet.



OK. So, I guess that is as about as simple as I can put it across to you.

Regardless, thanks for being part

of this.



Mike D.

Houston, TX

SETA Archives Committee



-----Original Message-----

>From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

>Sent: Jan 26, 2006 4:38 AM

>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript

>

>

>

> From what I have learned, this

>> one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the

>> Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in

>> February 1939---

>

>Just a quick geographical correction. The Cornwall

>Press was located in Cornwall, NY located in Orange

>County, NY. The first edition printings were done

>there as were several of the 2nd edition printings.

>The company merged with another and from what I

>understand, further printings were done in New Jersey.

>

>When the galleys were gone over, it was done by Bill

>W., Hank P., Ruth Hock and Dorothy Snyder who came up

>to Cornwall to go over them.

>

>As far as Barry's family giving anything to AAWS, due

>to a history of problems, litigation and pending

>litigation over royalties for Living Sober They had no

>desire to give AAWS anything. There was a great deal

>of animosity generated. I remember going over all the

>drafts for Living Sober which were housed in a

>friend's apartment in Connecticut. This friend had

>many of Barry's materials as well as another friend's

>materials which were left to him (Ron was involved

>with many of the private recordings of Bill W. and

>Bill speaking at his anniversaries in NYC - I think

>close to 200 of them and left them to Dennis when he

>passed on). I have no idea where these materials might

>be today (I do have some guesses). Dennis was a

>collector of AA memorabilia and had a small but

>amazing collection. There were some great "spook", LSD

>and vitamin B tapes but as I was only allowed to

>listen to portions of them, not make copies or take

>notes, unless they surface again, the material

>contained in them might be lost.

>

>

>

>

>

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3208 Diz Titcher
Re: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/20/2006 8:43:00 PM


I saw one in the Houston Intergroup office years ago.



"diazeztone" <eztone@hotmail.com> (eztone at hotmail.com)

wrote in saying:



I am looking for a copy of Ester's preamble, Dallas, Texas.


0 -1 0 0
3209 Azor521@aol.com
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/22/2006 8:14:00 PM


In the February 2006 AA Grapevine on page 21 is an excellent article titled,

"A Buck in the Basket?"

The on line Grapevine archives are awesome! _www.aagrapevine.org_

(http://www.aagrapevine.org)









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3210 Bill Lash
RE: The Late Liz The Late Liz 2/23/2006 5:23:00 PM


I have a copy of this movie & just watched it for the first time. Here is

my revue:



Woman drinks

Woman drinks more (always has a drink in each hand)

Woman drinks non-stop with fake friends

Woman cheats on second husband

Woman drinks

Woman remarries

Woman experiences alcoholic progression

Woman's alcoholism pushes away older son, younger son forgives & stays with

her

Woman drinks

Woman's alcoholism pushes away third husband

Woman experiences alcoholic insanity & bewilderment

Woman tries to commit suicide by taking many sleeping pills with booze

Woman has a spiritual experience while near dead

Woman awakes from the coma

Woman fights off urges to drink and begins to annoy fake friends with talk

about God

Woman's conversion experience leads her to a church thanks to her youngest

son

Woman commits herself to being involved with the church

Woman begins to help a friend who also has a drinking problem thanks to the

help of her new pastor

The End



Just

Love,

Barefoot

Bill











-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of billyk

Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:40 AM

To: bajohanson@charter.net; History Lovers

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Late Liz





i checked out this web site and also the IMB (internet movie

database). the movie "the late liz" indeed was made in 1971

and starred ann baxter (extremely well acclaimed actress as

would be attested by our history lover elders).



i've never seen the movie and so my question is (and i'm

asking anyone), should this movie be added to our history

lover's database. it would seem so.



any input would be appreciated - direct them to me as to not

clog up the group mail (billyk3@yahoo.com).



thanks - be good to yourselves,

billyk





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3211 ricktompkins
Re: "burning desire" "burning desire" 2/24/2006


Hi group,

Here's a 'burning desire' to reply to this post before its thread goes away.



"Do the right thing" is a movie, the title copyrighted by Spike Lee's film

company.

AA's Eleventh Step, "praying only for knowledge of His will and the power to

carry it out" has had much input and interpretation over our years of

existence. Our early founders spoke of the search for the 'next, best, indicated

course' of action, specifically relating to Step Eleven. I agree with our

Moderator, Glenn, that "old time" is a relative concept on this phrase---not

many speak the same way as was spoken in the late 1930s. From recollections of

Ruth Hock's daughter, that exact phrase "next, best, indicated" was used

verbatim and regularly. The phrase evolved into the 'next, best, thing' that I

first heard many years ago, too, but let's remember that it comes from Step

Eleven.



"It Works If You Work It!" is part of our ever-longer chants that follow a

meeting closing...Phrases like "keep coming back" usually start it, and 'keep

coming back, it works if you work it, sober!' are the current norm, with arms

waving and all...From my own experience, this "gospel shout" comes from

treatment centers and nowhere else, and it took hold in AA in the early 1990s. I

don't believe it has caused any harm, but at face value it's pretty silly. Just

think, if this stuff was going on in the 1950s, the Hokey-Pokey dance would have

fit just fine with the closing chant!



"Does anyone have a 'burning desire' to share" or "to add more thoughts" is a

normal question a meeting chair can ask before closing an AA meeting. I still

hear it a lot.



Rick, Illinois



___________________________



A comment by the moderator:



Rick,



What makes the idea of the whole AA group

dancing what would become known as the

"Higher Power Hokey-Pokey" in a circle

after the closing prayer, and finishing up

with a shouted "and that's what it's all

about!" is that I can halfway imagine it

actually happening!



Turn backward, O time, in thy flight!



Your friend, Glenn


0 -1 0 0
3212 jeanne avolio
Re: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/24/2006 7:31:00 PM


This was sent to me about 7 months ago, I dont know if it's the same one your

talking about here,thought i'd share it with the group..I had it read at my

birthday meeting this past aug..Many were surprised to kno as I was that there

was another one written years ago.maybe someone in the group can give a history

on this.In His Grace >>Jeanne

AA Old Preamble - 1940



We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are

powerless over alcohol and unable to do anything about it without the help

of a Power greater than ourselves.



We feel that each person's religious views, if any, are his own affair. The

simple purpose of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to show what may be

done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves regardless of what

our individual conception of that Power may be.



In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to that

Power, we must at first apply ourselves with some diligence. By often

repeating these acts, they become habitual and the help rendered becomes

natural to us.



We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a serious

illness for which medicine has no cure.



Our condition may be the result of an allergy, which makes us different from

other people. It has never been by any treatment with which we are familiar,

permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence,

the second meaning of A.A.



There are no dues or fees. The only requirement for membership is a desire

to stop drinking. Each member squares his debt by helping others to recover.



An Alcoholics Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application and

adherence to the A.A. program has forsworn the use of any and all alcoholic

beverage in any form.



The moment he takes so much as one drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other

alcoholic beverage he automatically loses all status as a member of

Alcoholics Anonymous.



A.A. is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their

desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers, we offer our

experience only to those who want it.



We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and on which we can join

in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly

followed our program. Those who do not recover are people who will not or

simply cannot give themselves to this simple program. Now you may like this

program or you may not, but the fact remains, it works. It is our only

chance to recover.



There is a vast amount of fun in the A.A. fellowship. Some people might be

shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity but just underneath there lies

a deadly earnestness and a full realization that we must put first things

first and with each of us the first thing is our alcoholic problem. To drink

is to die. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we

perish.



In order to set our tone for this meeting I ask that we bow our heads in a

few moments of silent prayer and meditation.



I wish to remind you that whatever is said at this meeting expresses our own

individual opinion as of today and as of up to this moment. We do not speak

for A.A. as a whole and you are free to agree or disagree as you see fit, in

fact, it is suggested that you pay no attention to anything which might not

be reconciled with what is in the A.A. Big Book.



If you don't have a Big Book, it's time you bought you one. Read it, study

it, live with it, loan it, scatter it, and then learn from it what it means

to be an A.A."

-----------





diazeztone <eztone@hotmail.com> wrote:

I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi)

preamble, Dallas, Texas.



She wrote the story "Flower of the South."

She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas.



Anybody have any idea how many different AA

talks there are by her which are still

obtainable??



LD Pierce

editor aabibliograpy.com



















SPONSORED LINKS

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recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3213 anmtcup
The God Angle The God Angle 2/24/2006 3:38:00 PM


Looking for information on a book similar to the 24 hour a day book

format entitled THE GOD ANGLE by The God Angle Committee, 1972.


0 -1 0 0
3214 Mitchell K.
Grapevine article on Mayflower phone calls Grapevine article on Mayflower phone calls 2/18/2006 5:52:00 PM


Looking for a link or copy of an article or articles Bill wrote in the

RHS Memorial Grapevine edition of the Grapevine. These articles relate

to the phone calls Bill reports making from the Mayflower Hotel in

Akron.



I only need that one article (or articles), not access to all the

back copies of the Grapevine on line.



Please contact me at:



<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
3215 Wendi Turner
"Next Right Action" - Dr. Paul O. "Next Right Action" - Dr. Paul O. 2/23/2006 1:44:00 PM


There was a question as to where "The next right action" came from in the

fellowship. I cannot give a certain response, but i do know the first place

i've seen it written.



In the stories in the back of the book, the wonderful story of Dr. Paul O.

published in the 3rd ed "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (BB3 439-452u)... and in the

4th ed as "Acceptance was the answer."



At the end of his story, i believe in the second to last paragraph... he speaks

of knowing that at any given moment, God's will for him is simply the "Next

right action."



Although this story is famous for it's slant on acceptance... my personal

favorite paragraph is the afore mentioned. That and where he discusses his

perspective in relation to his wife Max.



I am a part of the fellowship here in Southern California, Orange County. I go

to several meeting where Dr. Paul O. was the founding member of the meeting.

His spirit lives on here and is felt constantly. My home group meeting is where

he sat every Wednesday night for years.



I love and cherish his legacy of "next right action." Keeps me in the now when

i choose to act.


0 -1 0 0
3216 johnlawlee
Re: movie slang movie slang 2/23/2006 5:21:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jocis007@... wrote:

>

> do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these

> responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you

assume them." from

> chapter 7

>

That's a real stretch. You could make a better argument for the

language at the bottom of page 87 of Big Book, "...ask for the right

thought or action." The point is that "do the next right thing" is a

popular cliche, heard on the street, in the media and, only

incidentally, in meetings since 1989. The first eleven chapters of Big

Book use the word "money" thirteen times, but I wouldn't claim that the

cliche, "Show me the money" comes from the Big Book.

love+tolerance

john

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>


0 -1 0 0
3217 johnlawlee
Re: movie slang--Do the [next] right thing movie slang--Do the [next] right thing 2/23/2006 6:10:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jocis007@... wrote:

>

> do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these

> responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you

assume them." from

> chapter 7



I should have been more specific, and I promptly admit it. The

original source of the cliche is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hall of Fame

basketball player, political activist and buddy of Spike Lee. Mr.

Abdul-Jabbar's well-known quote was, "I try to do the right thing at

the right time." Spike Lee is a huge basketball fan and polical

activist. Spike modified Kareem's quote for his movie title, so that

the quote became "Do the right thing". The quote doesn't come from

Big Book or any AA source. It's just Polly-Parrot rhetoric used

liberally by corporate public relations officers, high school

civics teachers, group therapy moderators and recovery group members.

john

where the Monongahela meets the Allegheny, to form the Ohio



>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>


0 -1 0 0
3218 Kimball
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/23/2006 9:35:00 PM


I remember when I first started coming around (1976), the oldtimers said "toss

in the cost of a drink" You could get a good stiff drink for a buck in 1976.

Can't do that now. If we still were tossing in the cost of a drink we might

still be self-supporting.

_________________________







A comment from the moderator:



I think this is useful. We need to pool our knowledge of early AA history and

get a better idea of the reasoning that was used, back at that point in AA

history, for deciding that a dollar was a reasonable amount.



Just like Kimball, I have also heard old timers talking about it in the context

of how much it cost for a drink.



What other reasoning did they actually use for deciding on the figure of a

dollar? I'm not talking about us just guessing about it, but would like to hear

from people who remember old timers actually talking about it.



A dollar for a good stiff drink in 1976 sounds about right, and seventy-five

cents to a dollar for a beer.



What would it be now at a bar of similar calibre?



And what about the 1960's and 1950's and even earlier?



What was the price of a single beer at a bar at various points between 1939 and

the present? What was the price of a shot of whiskey, or a single mixed drink,

as it continued to rise over that same period of time?



But I think we need to keep the focus on what we can actually know historically.



Glenn Chesnut

South Bend, Indiana


0 -1 0 0
3219 dpmoose69
First editon covers First editon covers 2/26/2006 9:13:00 AM


Hi, Bill T. thought you might me able to help me out.



I am working with a member that is trying to restore a first edition

third printing of the big book. He has askied if I can replicate the

front cover and spine lettering and create a black and white image of

it. I am looking for either actual scans of the cover, the font name

or style, or anything that would help.



I appreciate any and all feedback.



dpdave@cox.net



dave h


0 -1 0 0
3220 Tom Hickcox
Re: "burning desire", Chants "burning desire", Chants 2/26/2006 9:16:00 AM


A couple of comments from Jim S. and Tommy H.

______________________________



Comment from: "Jim S." <james.scarpine@verizon.net>

(james.scarpine at verizon.net)



Arsonists have burning desires.

______________________________



Comment from: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



Responding to Message 3211 from <ricktompkins@comcast.net>

(ricktompkins at comcast.net), where Rick said:



{"It Works If You Work It!" is part of our ever-longer chants

that follow a meeting closing... From my own experience, this

"gospel shout" comes from treatment centers and nowhere else,

and it took hold in AA in the early 1990s.}



The chants are moving, and are now starting to occur, not

just at the end, but also to "How It Works" at the beginning.

A couple of years ago people started chanting the last line

of How It Works, "God could and would, if He were sought,"

to the immense annoyance of a number of people. My wife, who

moved here from NYC last year said the chant is common there.

I think treatment centers started it to see who was still

awake.



Rick (who lives in Illinois) also said:



{"Does anyone have a 'burning desire' to share" or

"to add more thoughts" is a normal question a meeting

chair can ask before closing an AA meeting. I still

hear it a lot.}



More than once a chair has said, "People with burning

desires need to see their urologist."



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
3221 Charlene C.
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 2/26/2006 9:46:00 AM


From: "Charlene C." <ccp28para4@yahoo.com>

(ccp28para4 at yahoo.com)



IIdog wrote: <IIdog@prodigy.net> (IIdog at prodigy.net)

##I am looking for information on Dr. Paul Oehlinger. His

story is in the third and fourth edition of the Big Book.

The same story with different titles. I appreciate any

information on this.

Thank you,

Jane B.##



You can listen to Dr. Paul O.'s talk on-line. Go to

xa-speakers (The Lights Are On) at



http://www.xa-speakers.org/



then to aa-alcoholics anonymous, then

to single speakers. Dr. Paul's is on page 24.



C. Cook

______________________________



From: Tammy Cook <tomatolcook@yahoo.com>

(tomatolcook at yahoo.com)



Wendi Turner wrote:

<wenditurner@earthlink.net> (wenditurner at earthlink.net)

##In the stories in the back of the book, the wonderful story

of Dr. Paul O. published in the 3rd ed "Doctor, Alcoholic,

Addict" (BB3 439-452u)... and in the 4th ed as "Acceptance

was the answer." At the end of his story, i believe in the

second to last paragraph... he speaks of knowing that at any

given moment, God's will for him is simply the "Next right

action."##



I like the saying too Wendi. It helped me to not

feel so overwhelmed in the beginning...still helps sometimes too.

______________________________



From: "Joe Nugent" <joe-gent@sympatico.ca>

(joe-gent at sympatico.ca)



Dr. Paul O. was what I call an elder statesman.



Joe


0 -1 0 0
3222 jlobdell54
History & Archives Gathering June 24 2006 History & Archives Gathering June 24 2006 2/24/2006 9:40:00 AM


There will be a Multi-District History & Archives

Gathering on June 24 2006 location to be negotiated

but between Harrisburg PA and Lebanon PA, from about

8:30 a.m. to about 3:30 p.m.



This will be like the Gatherings held in Summerdale PA

April 2003 and Elizabethtown PA June 2004. (We skipped

a year for the International.)



We have invited AA historians Glenn C. and Mitch K.



We are also inviting other historians, and hope to

have exhibits from the Philadelphia Intergroup Archives,

the Maryland Archives, and the Northern New Jersey

Archives, at least, along with a speaker from GSO.



We expect Chet H. (DLD 4/4/49) to be in attendance,

and hope for other 50+ oldtimers.



No charge for attending. Keep the date free if you can,

and come if you can.



-- Jared Lobdell

__________________________________



A note from the moderator:



At the very beginning, AA developed around two major

centers:



(1) Akron, Cleveland, and that area of the

upper midwest clustering around the western Great Lakes.



(2) That area on the eastern seaboard which had New

York City at its center, but involved people from that

entire part of the eastern seaboard.



Eastern Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Jersey were

all part of that early eastern AA center, so Jared's

history and archives gathering should be of more than

simply regional interest, on those grounds alone.



Also Mitchell K. is our expert on early Cleveland AA,

which was a key part of the other early AA center.



Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

(see map at http://hindsfoot.org/contact.html)


0 -1 0 0
3223 Rob
Re: First edition covers First edition covers 2/27/2006 10:38:00 PM


The best place I've found to get Big Book dust

jackets is http://www.dustjackets.org/. They have

replica dust jackets for all printings of the

first, second, and third edition.



Rob

______________________________



From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



This is exactly the kind of work that Bob W. (archivist from

Little Rock, Arkansas) is involved in...



I've misplaced his contact info. Can anyone else provide it?



My email address is <cm53@earthlink.net> (cm53 at earthlink.net)



-cm

______________________________



From: "Gallery Photography" <gallery5@mindspring.com>

(gallery5 at mindspring.com)



If it were me, I wouldn't touch it. If he wants a good usable

book, go buy a new one. Take that book and put it in a glass

box.



Rotax Steve


0 -1 0 0
3224 silkworthdotnet
Ester and the Texas Preamble Ester and the Texas Preamble 2/27/2006 2:54:00 PM


Grapevine, February, 2001



Texas Preamble:



A few months after the Grapevine published the Preamble in June,

1947, Ollie L., Dick F., and Searcy W. decided to beef it up for the

drunks in Texas. "We worked on it, passed it around, and agreed on

this version, " says Searcy W. "It's now read by groups throughout

the state." It works for Searcy. He's been sober 54 years.



For all who would be interested in it:



-------------------------------------



Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their

experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve

their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.



We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are

powerless over alcohol, and are unable to do anything about it

without the help of a Power greater than ourselves.



We feel each person's religious convictions, if any, are his own

affair, and the simple purpose of the program of AA is to show what

may be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves,

regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be.



In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to

that Power, we must first apply ourselves with some diligence, but

repetition confirms and strengthens this habit, then faith comes

naturally.



We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a

serious disease for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may be

the result of an allergic reaction to alcohol which makes it

impossible for us to drink in moderation. This condition has never,

by any treatment with which we are familiar, been permanently cured.

The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence - a second

meaning of AA.



There are no dues or fees. The only requirement is an honest desire

to stop drinking. Each member is a person with an acknowledged

alcoholic problem who has found the key to abstinence from day to day

by adhering to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. The moment he

resumes drinking he loses all status as a member of AA. His

reinstatement is automatic, however, when he again fulfills the sole

requirement for membership - an honest desire to quit drinking.



Not being reformers we offer our experience only to those who want

it. AA is not interested in sobering up drunks who are seeking only

temporary sobriety. We have a way out on which we can absolutely

agree and in which we join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen

a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not

recover are those who will not or cannot lend themselves to this

simple program-- usually men and women who are incapable of being

honest with themselves. You may like this Program or you many not,

but the fact remains that is works.. and we believe it is our only

chance to recover.



There is a vast amount of fun included in the AA fellowship. Some

people may be shocked at our apparent worldliness and levity, but

just underneath there is a deadly earnestness and a full realization

that we must put first things firs. With each of us the first thing

is our alcoholic problem. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in

and through us, or we perish.



with gratitude,

Jim M


0 -1 0 0
3225 Rob White
stepping stones stepping stones 3/1/2006 3:51:00 PM


I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in Bedford Falls NY (just above

NYC) where Bill and Lois lived from 1941 on.

It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly interested in AA history.



They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in exactly the same condition it

was when Bill and lois lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them in the

kitchen).



What a treasure trove of history!



You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill sat at in Clinton street

when Bill pushed a drink over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion".

You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann and Bill formed Council that

would become the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence .

You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big Book and the 12 and 12.

You can see the map filled with stick pins where Bill measured the progress of

new groups across the country.

You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked out when contemplating how he

would respond to the hundreds of questions

coming in from all over the country about how to start a meeting etc.



The best part - its largely undiscovered by the masses. You can get a quiet

visit with a volunteer tour guide and take your time to savor each part.



It is the most important collection of AA artifacts and history anywhere.



I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood home, gravesite)

I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower Hotel)

Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode.



www.steppingstones.org



they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a crowd,

but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one else is there.



Rob White

Baltimore

410 328 8549


0 -1 0 0
3226 chesbayman56
Significant March Dates in A.A. History Significant March Dates in A.A. History 3/2/2006 7:00:00 AM


March 1936 - AA had 10 members staying sober. At end of 1936 A.A.

had 15 members.

March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

Works Publishing Inc established to support writing and printing of

the book.

March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of

reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group.

March 1941 - Second printing of Big Book.

March 1941 - 1st Prison AA Group formed at San Quentin.

March 1946 - The March of Time film is produced by NY AA office.

March 1949 - Dr. Bob considers idea of AA conference premature.

March 1951 - American Weekly publishes memorial article for Dr. Bob.

March 1, 1939 - Readers Digest fails to write article on AA.

March 1, 1941 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article

published and membership jumped from 2,000 to 8,000 by years end.

March 3 1947 - Nell Wing started work at Alcoholic Foundation 415

Lexington Avenue.

March 4, 1891 - Lois W is born.

March 5, 1945 - Time Magazine reports Detroit radio broadcasts of AA

members. (Archie T?)

March 7, 1940 -- Bill and Lois visited the Philadelphia AA group.

March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted

to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury

St., at 8 PM Wednesdays.

March 9, 1941 - Wichita Beacon reports AA member from NY who wants

to form a group in Wichita.

March 10, 1944 - New York Intergroup was established.

March 11, 1949 - The Calix Society, an association of Roman Catholic

alcoholics who are maintaining their sobriety through participation

in Alcoholics Anonymous, was formed in Minneapolis by five Catholic

AA members.

March 14, - South Orange, NJ, AA group held an anniversary dinner

with Bill W as guest speaker

March 15, 1941 - 1st AA group formed in New Haven, Connecticut. Not

reported in paper until Oct 1, 1941.

March 16, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation & Works Publishing move from

Newark to 30 Vesey St in lower Manhattan. First headquarters of our

own.

March 21, 1881 - Anne R, Dr Bobs wife, is born.

March 21 1966 - Ebby dies.

March 22, 1951 - Dr William Duncan Silkworth dies at Towns Hospital.

March 22, 1984 - Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister", dies.

March 23, 1936 - Bill & Lois visit Fitz M, "Our Southern Friend", in

Maryland.

March 25, 1898 -- Jim B ("The Vicious Cycle") was born.

March 25, 2005 – Nancy Olson, Founder of AAHL- See Memorial at:

http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html

March 29, 1943 -- The Charleston Mail, WV, reported on Bill W's talk

at St. John's Parish House.

March 31, 1947 - 1st AA group formed in London, England.


0 -1 0 0
3227 Executive Editor
Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 3/2/2006 1:13:00 PM


Dr. Paul commented on the title of the story when interviewed in the

Grapevine. The story was originally published in the GV as "Bronze

Moccasins" and changed when reprinted in the Big Book. The interview is in

the GV's Digital Archive and in The Best of Grapevine.

Cordially,

Robin Bromley


0 -1 0 0
3228 Diz Titcher
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 2/28/2006 4:26:00 PM


Dr. Paul has written a few books, Contact Sabrina Publishing at 800-booklog

in Laguna Miguel, CA.

Diz T.


0 -1 0 0
3229 Kimball
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 2/28/2006 6:47:00 PM


Charlene, I met Dr Paul in Ogden Utah in the early 90s. The story (much

shorter) was originally titled the Bronze Moccasins and ran in the Grapevine.

It was later expanded for inclusion to the Big Book, and someone (possibly a

Grapevine editor) renamed the story Doctor, Alcoholic, Adict. Paul didn't mind

at first, but as time passed, some of our fellowship would point to the title of

his story and say things like "it talks about drugs in the Big Book" or "you

have to let me talk about drugs, it's in the book." That botherd him. Paul did

not want the title of his story to be a source of controversy. It was renamed

in the fourth editon to "Acceptance was the Answer."



I was at a area workshop when the first box of fourth edition Big Books came to

town and were uncrated. Everyone got a copy. It didn't take long for people to

realize that their favorite passage in the story "Acceptance was the Answer" was

moved from 449 to 417. I could almost hear a cry from coast to coast. Imagine,

refusing to buy the 4th edition because you could not accept the page change of

your favorite passage on Acceptance. A paradox of twisted thinking.


0 -1 0 0
3230 Charlie C
Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/1/2006 3:05:00 PM


Hi, not much of an AA historian here, although I am learning a lot from this

site, but as a reference librarian I would suggest an excellent resource for

information re the question of a dollar in the basket and prices of things would

be "The Value of a dollar: 1860-1999," a reference book most academic and larger

public libraries would have.



For example, in the 1935-1939 section, a pound of coffee was 26 cents. In

the 1940-44 section it is noted that a fifth of Seagrams blended whiskey was

$2.70 (coffee was cheaper actually, 24 cents a lb.) 1945-49, coffee was up to 31

cents a lb. In 1950-

54, coffee was 77 cents a lb., 93 cents in 1955-59...



If we take the late '60s as a benchmark, since that is apparently how long

the buck in the basket has been the stock donation, coffee had actually dropped,

to 85 cents a lb. A keypunch operator might make $85 a week, or a typist $90. A

6 pack of Shlitz was 99 cents, and, well, I could go on but I won't ;-)



Obviously the pegging of the standard donation at a dollar for so long is

totally in defiance of economic common sense when you think of inflation. A

sponsee of mine has a nice solution to this - he gets $2 bills at the bank,

expressly to make his donation with in meetings!



"Keep on truckin"

Michael Corbett, BCHS class of '74

______________________________



From the moderator:



It seems to me that, on the basis of Michael Corbett's and Tom White's and Bruce

Lallier's information, "a dollar in the basket" goes back to the late 1960's or

early 1970's. This was in fact roughly the cost of a mixed drink at a good bar

at that time. If we compare the cost of beer and shots of whiskey and bottles

of decent liquor then, with prices now, it seems to me that 3 to 4 dollars in

the basket would be the appropriate amount. Of course, if somebody wants to

fine tune it, and count out exactly $3.67 (or something like that) into the

basket, I suppose that person could do so.



Putting just small change into the basket, as they did in the 1930's, 40's, and

50's would have made sense too, if we used the price of a drink as the standard.

So it looks like the place where U.S. members started living in economic fantasy

was during the 1980's (and all the way down to the present).



This is something which is much more important for AA's survival than worrying

about chants at the end of meetings, or minor changes in the Big Book, or a lot

of the other things like that.



Among other things, it has forced the New York GSO to start functioning as a

profit making publishing business (with all the distortions this has produced)

because the membership has forgotten that "fully self supporting, declining

outside contributions" means that we are supposed to come up with the money to

support the New York office, not force it to sell books in order to survive.



And this also applies to intergroup offices and other necessary things.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

______________________________



From: Tom White <tomwhite@cableone.net>



Glenn and Kimball:

I think I can dredge up a few memories of drinking in the 50s. I

sobered up in 59. "Nice" bars or "lounges" in NYC were one thing, but

if you were drinking on the cheap, which I usually did, a glass (not

a bottle) of tap beer was still a dime at a White Rose in NYC in 59,

I'm pretty sure, and it had been right through my 13 years of state-

side drinking after I got home from the Navy in 46. I think a bottle

may have been 35 cents (again, cheap bars or grocery stores). You

could get a shot of bar whiskey, a rye like White Feathers, for a

quarter (or could it have been 50 cents?). Prices went up from there

as you went "uptown," but it seems to me that in my first AA meetings

coins were still quite acceptable. I don't remember when the thing

became a standard one buck, but it sure has been hard to budge it

away from that. The price of a drink seems to have been the control,

after all, except that now it ought to be seen as more than a buck.

But then we have Bill's remark (was it not?) that sober alcoholics

are tighter than the bark on a tree. In our quite small group in

Odessa, Texas, we do seem to have the members trained to do $2.00.

Tom White



Kimball wrote:



I remember when I first started coming around (1976), the oldtimers

said "toss in the cost of a drink" You could get a good stiff

drink for a buck in 1976.

______________________________



From: "Bruce Lallier" <brucelallier@zoominternet.net>



When I came in in 71 we put a quarter in, seems like it went

from a quarter to a dollar without stopping in between. I also

heard some of the oldtimes at that time saying it was a one

time said "if you have it put it in, if you need it take it

out." Wonder how that would go over today.



Bruce, a Connecticut transplant in Conneaut lake Pa

______________________________



From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>



Followup to Glenn:

When talking about the Big Book at a meeting, I sometimes

indicate to the newcomers that they can get one "for the

price of a double margarita."



I agree with your reminders to supply historical evidence

on this board, not just conjecture or associations. Not

just "my sponsor told me or my therapist told me."



Isn't there something in Pass It On about how Bill

would pass the hat at Clinton Street, and never get

aper money [only change]?



john lee

member

pittsburgh


0 -1 0 0
3231 Tom Hickcox
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 3/6/2006 10:10:00 AM


At 12:13 3/2/2006 , Robin Bromley wrote:



>Dr. Paul commented on the title of the story when interviewed in the

>Grapevine. The story was originally published in the GV as "Bronze

>Moccasins" and changed when reprinted in the Big Book. The interview is in

>the GV's Digital Archive and in The Best of Grapevine.

>Cordially,



I got out my copy of the May 1975 Grapevine and compared the story "Bronzed

Moccasins" to the story "Doctor, Addict, Alcoholic" in the Third Edition

Big Book. [Note the correct title of the story.]



There are the same number of paragraphs and the first sentence of each

paragraph is the same in both volumes.



What changes, except the title for the story in the Four Edition are you

referring to?



I found an interview of him in the July 2001 GV but it doesn't mention the

original title of the article. What article are you referring to?



I like the original title much better than the current one, but that is

just my two cents.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3232 Mitchell K.
Re: stepping stones stepping stones 3/6/2006 8:44:00 PM


Just a couple of points....



When I visited with Lois about 3 months before she

passed on there were no glasses in the kitchen just as

there were no glasses in the kitchen when I visited

there soon after she passed on.



Maybe I'm losing my memory (I do know my short-term is

severely damaged) but can someone refresh it about

Bill & Marty starting what was to become the National

Council in the livingroom



As far as "THE" table.... it has been reported that

there are a few "THE" tables where Bill & Ebby met.



As far as the desk in the study on the hill being

"THE" desk where the Big Book was written... I've sat

at that desk many a time and it wouldn't fit in the

office in the Newark office and I someone will have to

fill me in if B&L stored the Clinton St. furniture or

took it with them on all their moves.



Another thing.... it cannot be classified as "It is

the most important collection of AA artifacts

> and history anywhere."



I'm tickled pink that you enjoyed yourself so much at

Stepping Stones. I wish more members of the Fellowship

would have your interest in our history. However... we

must temper historical fact with legend. Hey, I may be

totally off base...







> I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in

> Bedford Falls NY (just above NYC) where Bill and

> Lois lived from 1941 on.

> It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly

> interested in AA history.

>

> They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in

> exactly the same condition it was when Bill and lois

> lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them

> in the kitchen).

>

> What a treasure trove of history!

>

> You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill

> sat at in Clinton street when Bill pushed a drink

> over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion".

> You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann

> and Bill formed Council that would become the

> National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence .

> You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big

> Book and the 12 and 12.

> You can see the map filled with stick pins where

> Bill measured the progress of new groups across the

> country.

> You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked

> out when contemplating how he would respond to the

> hundreds of questions

> coming in from all over the country about how to

> start a meeting etc.

>

> The best part - its largely undiscovered by the

> masses. You can get a quiet visit with a volunteer

> tour guide and take your time to savor each part.

>

> It is the most important collection of AA artifacts

> and history anywhere.

>

> I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood

> home, gravesite)

> I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower

> Hotel)

> Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode.

>

> www.steppingstones.org

>

> they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a

> crowd,

> but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one

> else is there.

>

> Rob White

> Baltimore

> 410 328 8549

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3233 Tom Hickcox
Re: stepping stones stepping stones 3/6/2006 10:15:00 AM


At 14:51 3/1/2006 , Rob White wrote:



>I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in Bedford Falls NY (just

>above NYC) where Bill and Lois lived from 1941 on.

>It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly interested in AA history.



I believe the name of the town is Bedford Hills.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3234 Sally Brown
Re: stepping stones stepping stones 3/7/2006 1:42:00 PM


Dave and I never heard that discussions about Marty's founding the National

Council on Alcoholism started at Stepping Stones. Wherever Marty and Bill

talked, whether at the AA office, over lunch, or out at Stepping Stones - or

all three - Marty certainly tossed around her plans with Bill and Lois since

Bill was her AA sponsor and she and the Wilsons were close personal friends.

However, we do know that he threw cold water on the whole idea, saying she

was unqualified for such a venture. She went ahead, anyway, since she was

being encouraged by other strong advisers, and besides was being driven by a

dream she had multiple gifts for fulfilling. Later, of course, Bill and Dr

Bob both joined her Advisory Board for a while. And as Marty's vision became

a successful reality over the decades, Bill changed his mind and

enthusiastically supported her efforts and achievements in dramatically

expanding AA's membership and influence as well as in educating our country

as a whole about alcoholism.



Marty's biography (see below) contains many hitherto unreported facts about

AA history. Dave and I tried hard to write only what could be verified and

attributed to sources. We are very grateful to other writers of AA and

recovery history before us who set high historical standards.



Shalom - Sally



Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of

Mrs. Marty Mann

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics

Anonymous

United Church of Christ



www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Road, 309

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

Email: rev.sally@att.net


0 -1 0 0
3235 mertonmm3
Re: stepping stones stepping stones 3/7/2006 7:22:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:

>

>> Just a couple of points....

>

someone will have to

> fill me in if B&L stored the Clinton St. furniture or

> took it with them on all their moves.





Hi Mitch,



We are ever seeking the details. According to the diary they put the

furniture into storage when they left 182. Recall that they moved

directly into the Parkhurst 344 N. Fullerton, Montclair home from

there and for the next six or seven Sundays the regular meeting was

held there begining on May 14, 1939 if my memory is correct. At that

time there was only one meeting at most per night for the entire

Eastern United States. The meetings began at 4:00 and went most of the

night. They rotated speakers for the first portion according to Jim

Burwell who was probably living at Hank and Kathleen's home as well at

that time. They were mostly quite broke from the book which had just

arrived in final form the month before. However these were dinner

meetings with Herb T. paying for a "big spread". The wive's always

attended these along with their spouse's.



At that meeting they voted in the Bill and Lois Home replacement fund

and each pledged different amounts of which none of them paid more

than a few months. They wrote up a document with this information

which is in the GSO archives. Marty was still a Blythewood Sanatarium

patient and she took the train to the meeting from CT. to NJ. (Bill

and Lois were doing an errand when they voted this Home Replacement

Fund in - they arrived shortly thereafter and Lois wrote in her diary

that they were thrilled.



Very shortly thereafter Hank and Kathleen became estranged, probably

after Kathleen found out about his proposal to Ruth. Hank moved to

East Orange, 50 Beech St. I believe. His mail went to West Orange. By

June 21st Kathleen was moving out. And Lois helped her move her

furniture to a specifically named individuals house who I'd have to

look up. In her long diary entry that day she never said a word about

her own furniture.



Immediately they were offered the Green pond bungalow by the family of

Horace C. (note there was a Horace G. member too at that time.) His

family owned the mammouth international shipping firm of Moore

McCormick if I remember correctly. Green Pond was in the remote

wilderness and Lois loved it. The diary entries from that time, many

of which are in LR, are the longest and happiest of that first 5 year

period.



LR leaves you with the impression that when they left there shortly

thereafter it was for good. In fact, it was only rented for a very

short time and they lived there often during the next few years

gradually moving into the NYC clubhouse when that became an option.

Much time was spent with Bob and Mag V. at their farmhouse in Bog

Hollw near Monsey, NY. They both seemed more drawn to the country than

the city. SS is certainly that.



The Best to You and Your Wife Mitch,

-merton


0 -1 0 0
3236 rriley9945@aol.com
Stepping Stones, Bedford Hills Stepping Stones, Bedford Hills 3/7/2006 12:59:00 AM


From: Tommy H. in Baton Rouge, in Message 3233:



Stepping Stones is in Bedford Hills, not Bedford Falls.

______________________________



From: rriley9945@aol.com



For you movie fans, Bedford Falls is the name of the

town in the holiday classic It's a Wonderful Life

starring James Stewart.

______________________________



From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>



The town is Bedford Hills, not Bedford Falls. The latter is the

mythical setting for the Jimmy Stewart classic movie, "It's a

Wonderful Life." Incidently, Bill and Lois' house is in Katonah,

not Bedford Hills. Kotonah is the next town. The postal addresses

must have changed since Bill lived there. I searched the streets of

Bedford Hills for an hour, looking for the house. It's not there.

I received a nice private tour from a staff member.



john lee

pittsburgh


0 -1 0 0
3237 Cloydg
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 3/7/2006 9:01:00 AM


In the AA Archives that's accessable over the Internet, Dr. Paul did an

interview. He explained where he was at that time in his life and how he felt

about his article, "Bronze Moccasins". Then he speaks about his story being

included into the BB under the title, "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict", and the

ensuing problems he encountered. My question is: Does the AA interview appear

to say that in his view, alcoholics can and do become dually addicted but

addicts seldom become alcoholic?" Also, did it appear to anyone else that he

was attempting to make an apology to AA for writing his article?



In love and service, Clyde G.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3238 Cheryl F
Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/7/2006 11:06:00 AM


I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program

referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of

context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that?



Grateful so I serve,



Cheryl F


0 -1 0 0
3239 ArtSheehan
RE: Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/7/2006 4:46:00 PM


Care should be exercised in defining the basis used for comparing

dollar amounts over time, particularly in considering the long-term

effects of inflation.



It is useful to convert past dollar amounts to show the equivalent

buying power in current dollars. This is easily accomplished by using

Consumer Price Index (CPI) conversion factors. CPI conversion data can

be obtained on-line from Professor Robert C Sahr, Political Science

Dept, Oregon State U, Corvalis



http://oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/cv2005.pdf



The "quantity" of past dollars amounts can erroneously be viewed as

the "value" of past dollar amounts. An amount expressed in 1940

dollars can erroneously be viewed as less expensive than 2005 dollars

when in fact the 1940 value is substantially more expensive.



Consider the $3.50 selling price of the Big Book when it was first

published in April 1939. $3.50 in 1939 dollars would be the equivalent

value of $49.30 in 2005 dollars. The Big Book was a rather expensive

book for its time. That's the reason it was printed on such large and

thick paper and got the name "Big Book" (the idea was to convince the

alcoholics that they were getting their money's worth).



The Summer/Fall 2005 catalog of Conference-approved literature shows

that a hard cover Big Book can be purchased for $6. You can also

erroneously conclude that this is almost twice the cost of what the

Big Book sold for in 1939. In fact the 2005 Big Book price actually

represents only 12% of what a Big Book sold for in 1939 (i.e. a nearly

90% price reduction).



As best as I can determine, groups and members were first asked to

make direct contributions to what is today GSO in March 1941 when Jack

Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article was published. The publicity

caused 1941 membership to jump from around 2,000 to 8,000. The article

led to over 6,000 appeals for help to be mailed to the NY Office to

handle. The NY office asked groups to donate $1 ($13.33 in 2005

dollars) per member, per year, for support of the office. This began

the practice of financing the NY office operations from group

donations (re the Service Manual, page S7).



Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking

members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition

collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there

are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be

left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be

for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small.

The same goes for each group trying to donate to their Central Office,

District, Area and GSO - just try to donate something no matter how

small (it does have a tendency to add up over time).



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
3240 Carter Elliott
Bill W.''s 1966 Letter Bill W.''s 1966 Letter 3/8/2006 6:27:00 AM


As Bill Sees It contains thirty-one entries sourced to "Letter, 1966". Do we

know if this letter was a single, philosophical essay or letters collected from

his general correspondence?



Carter E.; Blacksburg BA


0 -1 0 0
3241 Glenn Chesnut
Moderator gone March 11-17 Moderator gone March 11-17 3/10/2006 12:15:00 PM


The moderator will not be available from Saturday March 11 to Friday March 17.

If you could hang onto your messages until the 17th, it would be greatly

appreciated.



Glenn Chesnut, Moderator

South Bend, Indiana





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3242 JNP in Maine
Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/10/2006 12:09:00 PM


Hi,

Someone once told me that in a conversation with Dr Paul he stated that

acceptance was not the answefr and he had made that statement before he had

taken the steps as they were laid out in the Big Book



Joe Pet

Orono, Maine





Cheryl F <learning3legacies@cox.net> wrote:

I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program

referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of

context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that?



Grateful so I serve,



Cheryl F











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0 -1 0 0
3243 Azor521@aol.com
Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/10/2006 10:10:00 AM


In a message dated 3/10/06 8:49:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

learning3legacies@cox.net writes:



paragraph about acceptance





I met Dr. Paul O. at a speaker meeting in Modesto, CA @ 1993 and while we

were at dinner he made it clear he didn't get acceptance out of the blue. He

had to work for it and suggested we read his entire story to get the full

perspective of his life in recovery to that point.

He and his wife Max seemed like loving and caring people grateful for their

recovery.

Love & Huggs to all............ Floyd J





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3244 Rob
Doctor Bob''s nightmare Doctor Bob''s nightmare 3/10/2006 3:32:00 PM


hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and

it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd

printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years

have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where

this changed? It would be most appreciated.


0 -1 0 0
3245 wilfried antheunis
Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/10/2006 2:19:00 PM


I will only quote part of the article in the July 1995 Grapevine:

GV: Is there anything you regret having written in your story?



Dr. Paul: Well, I must say I'm really surprised at the number of people who

come up to me and ask me confidentially if what they've heard on the very best

authority - usually from their sponsor - is true: that there are things in my

story I want to change, or that I regret having written it, or that I want to

take it out because it says so much about drugs, or that I've completely changed

my mind that AA is the answer or even that acceptance is the answer. I've also

heard - on the best authority. -that I've died or gotten drunk or on pills. The

latest one was that my wife Max died and that I got so depressed I got drunk.

So, is there anything I'd like to change? No. I believe what I said more now

than when I wrote it.



This was taken out of context- the whole article should be available in the

Grapevine digital archives.



wil







----- Original Message -----

From: Cheryl F

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:06 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O. on acceptance





I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program

referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of

context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that?



Grateful so I serve,



Cheryl F













Yahoo! Groups Links

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3246 Charles Knapp
RE: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/10/2006 8:42:00 PM


Hello Group



Living in Southern California I was able to listen to Dr Paul often. He

always spoke in my area at least 3 or 4 times a year. On several occasions

I Heard him say he thought there other things in his story that was just as

important as that one paragraph. For instance he thought the part about him

and his wife Max getting well together in AA was better than that paragraph.

Personally I like the next to the last paragraph which reads: "Acceptance

is the key to my relationship with God today. I never just sit and do

nothing while waiting for Him to tell me what to do. Rather, I do whatever

is in front of me to be done, and I leave the results up to Him; however it

turns out, that's Gods will for me." I believe of all the speakers I have

been able to listen to from So Cal over the past 15 years I miss hearing Dr

Paul the most.

Thanks



Charles from California









-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Cheryl F

Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:07 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O. on acceptance





I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program

referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of

context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that?



Grateful so I serve,



Cheryl F













Yahoo! Groups Links



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3247 Arkie Koehl
Re: Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/10/2006 1:40:00 PM


My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to

participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket.

The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has forgone

collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become established.



Fiona D





On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote:



> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking

> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition

> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there

> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be

> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be

> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small.



Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from

treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there

is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are

sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put

nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected

to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the

state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource.



Arkie


0 -1 0 0
3248 Jon Markle
Re: Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/13/2006 7:16:00 PM


In meetings around here, I've noticed the chairperson stating that

newcomers, visitors and those currently in a hospital or treatment center

(in patient), need not contribute.



Jon (Raleigh)

9/9/82





> From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com>

> Reply-To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:40:48 -1000

> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Price of things since 1935...

>

> My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to

> participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket.

> The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has

> forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become

> established.

>

> Fiona D

>

>

> On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote:

>

>> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking

>> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition

>> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there

>> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be

>> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be

>> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small.

>

> Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from

> treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there

> is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are

> sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put

> nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected

> to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the

> state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource.

>

> Arkie

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3249 Tom Hickcox
Re: Doctor Bob''s nightmare Doctor Bob''s nightmare 3/13/2006 9:04:00 PM


At 14:32 3/10/2006 , Rob wrote:





>hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and

>it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd

>printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years

>have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where

>this changed? It would be most appreciated.



I checked my Third Editions and printings number 1 thru 8 state "six years"

and 9 on state "four years." This is on p. 180.



I checked several Second Editions and they all said "six years" as did the

two First Editions I have, but the statement was on p. 192 of the Firsts.



The question of why this change was effected was discussed at some point in

the recent past on our list. I remember reading it but am not confident

enough in my memory to quote and I can't find the post.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3250 Carolyn W
Re: Doctor Bob''s nightmare Doctor Bob''s nightmare 3/13/2006 10:34:00 PM


Mark,



I looked in my copy of the 3rd edition of the BB. and it says ' four years '.

Carol



----- Original Message -----

From:

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:32 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Doctor Bob's nightmare





hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and

it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd

printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years

have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where

this changed? It would be most appreciated.

















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recovery center

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0 -1 0 0
3251 wbmscm
Universal Mind Universal Mind 3/14/2006 8:30:00 AM


I hope this question is not beyond the purpose of this list, but



Got any info. on Bill using the term "Universal Mind" in his story.

The term caught my eye because it's capitalized. I searched the

archives and didn't come up with anything ( I may have missed it),

googled the term, with some success (seems origin may be from Hindu),

but any info. re: Bill using it would fulfill my curiousity.



Peace,

Wendy


0 -1 0 0
3252 Tom Hickcox
Re: Sauerkraut remedy Sauerkraut remedy 3/14/2006 4:51:00 PM


I recently revisited this as a result of picking up a pamphlet from Dr.

Bob's Home which had his last talk to the Cleveland A.A. Conference on July

30, 1950. It quotes him as saying "sauerkraut and cold meadow." This talk

is in the June '73 Grapevine. The September '73 GV addresses "cold meadow"

and concludes "And then one dear reader sent us a length of tape, much

better than ours, on which it all came out quite clearly, "sauerkraut and

cold tomatoes." This was confirmed by a second reader in a letter from

England."



Tommy in Baton Rouge



At 16:26 1/31/2006 , Peggy Anna wrote:



>I have a book written in 1993 by Don Julio DeMedici Santaleone, entitled

>"The James Connection or Sauerkraut, Tomatoes, and Karo Syrup" The author

>has been a member of AA for over 20 years now and lives in Rochester, New

>York. In his introduction he states "as related in Dr. Bob and the Good

>Oldtimers (p 74) a detoxification treatment of a combination of tomatoes,

>sauerkraut and Karo corn syrup was administered by Bill W. to Dr. Bob in

>order to supply Bob with vitamins and energy so that Bob could perform

>surgery".

>

>Peggy Anna

>----- Original Message -----

>From: "Rich Foss" <richfoss@adelphia.net>

>To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:13 PM

>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sauerkraut remedy

>

>

> >

> > An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice

> > treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with

> > replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our

> > literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob

> > and

> > the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's

> > simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way

> > out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut.

> > Thanks.

> > Rich

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3253 J. Carey Thomas
"Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/15/2006 5:43:00 PM


Our Area has started a idea called "Stump the Archivist." The

four questions below have come from attendees at our Area business

weekends.

I have tried the search capability of our site, but have not

mastered its capabilities. Probably the answers to these *questions* are

there, but I could use some help...!

Here is the first batch of four questions we have been asked:



JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST



Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?



When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?



Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle?



When was the grapevine first published? In its present form?



I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even

some answers!

_\|/_

(o o)

-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

Carey Thomas

Archivist, Area 15



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3254 Charlene C.
Re: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 3/15/2006 1:57:00 PM


it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual

terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was

considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness.



just a thought.

C. Cook





trixiebellaa <hayntra@aol.com> wrote:

hi history lovers,



Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been

a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol

on his brain?"



One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of

information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the

chapters at the beginning of the book.



Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks from Tracy

The Barking Big Book Study Group

England

















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recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous



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0 -1 0 0
3255 ckbudnick
William Y. "California Bill" take two William Y. "California Bill" take two 3/16/2006 12:18:00 AM


On February 7th I posted the following but have not received any

responses. I am hoping that someone has some information since the

following is listed as a significant event in AA history:



In Message 3129, "Significant February dates in A.A. History "

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3129

it says:



Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill"

dies in Winston Salem, NC.



Who was William Y. "California Bill" and what is his

significance in AA history?



Thanks.



Chris

Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
3256 meb_nosix
Re: Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/16/2006 10:44:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Markle <serenitylodge@...>

wrote:

>

> In meetings around here, I've noticed the chairperson stating that

> newcomers, visitors and those currently in a hospital or treatment

center

> (in patient), need not contribute.

>

> Jon (Raleigh)

> 9/9/82

>

>

> > From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@...>

> > Reply-To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:40:48 -1000

> > To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Price of things since 1935...

> >

> > My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was

encouraged to

> > participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket.

> > The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings

and has

> > forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become

> > established.

> >

> > Fiona D

> >

> >

> > On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote:

> >

> >> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking

> >> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition

> >> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there

> >> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be

> >> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be

> >> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small.

> >

> > Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from

> > treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there

> > is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are

> > sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put

> > nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected

> > to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the

> > state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource.

> >

> > Arkie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

Not sure where these meetings are that you talk about but agree that

those interested ina solution should listen to those that are able to

offer one. Step 2 "Came to beleive that a power greater than ourselves

could restore us to sanity" clearly states that we are insane till we

have the essential personality change brought on by folowing the

steps. Those not working the steps or new to the program are in no

position to offer anything but the a deluded view of reality that has

landed them there in the first place. I've been to many meetings while

in early recovery and found til i completed the steps exactly as

outlined in the big book i had no idea what i was talking about and

basically stayed in the problem. Those interested in a solution and

sick of living in the problem will be the ones that are happy to

listen. God bless.


0 -1 0 0
3257 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Are any AAHL''s going to Ireland Are any AAHL''s going to Ireland 3/16/2006 12:00:00 PM


The 60th Anniversary of AA in Ireland will be celebrated in Cork Ireland

next month at the All Ireland convention. Do any AAHL members plan to attend?

Are there any AAHL members in Ireland besides Fiona D., who has most graciously

agreed to show us County Mayo and the birthplace of Sister Ignatia ?

also,

There will be a closed meeting of the Archives Committee in

Philadelphia, Pa at 444 N.3rd St 3rd floor at 1 PM on Saturday 3/18/06. We will

play a

videotape of Conor F (the man who took AA to Ireland/ Europe and Dr. Moore (

who provides Conor with Richard P.) the 1st man sober in Ireland. Because it is

a videotape from 1982 it will be a closed meeting(for alcoholics only)

The statement of anonymity will be read at the meeting

Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike G





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3258 David Jones
RE: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 3/16/2006 5:04:00 PM


I don’t know whether you would consider this, it is just opinion and I have

no evidence to back it up.



But, Bill’s use of recent historical events as part of his argument, such as

the Titanic when it comes to the part ‘we are like passengers of a great

liner’.



Would suggest that recent social/historical events were maybe in his mind,

this said, then an employer may look on an alcoholic as a liability and not

worth the investment in salvaging. Given that in recent memory the US has

had a depression no shortage of willing workers; and the prohibition a moral

judgment and one that may have increased in some way the numbers of

alcoholics.



Then the second world war intervened and ended the employment problem and

gave the country a focus and unity.



My question would be; how were employers inclined to think post war rather

than pre war.







God bless



Dave











it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in

intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when

alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or

terminal illness.



just a thought.

C. Cook





trixiebellaa <hayntra@aol.com> wrote:

hi history lovers,



Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been

a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol

on his brain?"



One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of

information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the

chapters at the beginning of the book.



Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks from Tracy

The Barking Big Book Study Group

England

















SPONSORED LINKS

Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction

recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous



---------------------------------

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS





Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.





---------------------------------











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Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.



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0 -1 0 0
3259 t
RE: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/17/2006 12:53:00 AM


> JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST

>

> Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?

seems like somewhere I've read something like "Usually, however, other people

are

involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would

needlessly sacrifice others ..."

So I'll let those who might choose to take Bill's inventory also consider making

his

amends. [isn't it odd how often we run across those willing to take someone

else's

inventory, but how seldom those same folks volunteer to do the amends steps?]



>

> When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?

Sister Ignatia was reportedly in the habit of giving out Sacred Heart tokens to

those

who 'graduated treatment' at St Thomas Hospital in Akron.

As early as Jan 1947, in the Grapevine's "AA Country Wide News Circuit" column,

it is

noted that the Elmira, N. Y. Group used white-red-and-blue poker chips to note

lengths of continuous sobriety.

In May 1947, that same column mentions Tacoma Wash using

white-yellow-red-and-blue

chips.

In Aug 1947, that column again mentions the use of a blue chip by the North

Hollywood, Cal group.

A later, 1955, article "In the Chips" noted the practice in Charlotte, NC with

white-red-amber-green-and-blue chips.



>

> Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle?

"Where" is on most all AAWS literature published, "when" would be from the 50's

till

1993.



>

> When was the grapevine first published? In its present form?

The first [oversized] issue is dated June 1944,

then it was 'downsized' to it's present dimensions in Sept 1948.



>

> I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even

> some answers!


0 -1 0 0
3260 James Blair
Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/16/2006 8:01:00 PM


JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST



Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?



Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history.



When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?



Chips, Medallions and Birthdays











The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of

the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the

history on them.







Sister lgnatia, the nun who helped Dr. Bob get the hospitalization program

started



at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron was the first person to use medallions in

Alcoholics



Anonymous. She gave the drunks who were leaving St. Thomas after a five day

dry out a Sacred Heart Medallion and instructed them that the acceptance of

the medallion signified a commitment to God, to A.A. and to recovery and

that if they were going to drink, they had a responsibility to return the

medallion to her before drinking.







The sacred heart badges had been used prior to A.A. by the Father Matthew

Temperance Movement of the 1840s and the Pioneers an Irish Temperance

Movement of the 1890s.







The practice of sobriety chips in A.A. started with a Group in Elmira, N.Y.

in 1947 and has grown from there.







The celebration of birthdays came from the Oxford Group where they

celebrated the anniversary of their spiritual rebirth. As we have a problem

with honesty, A.A. chose the anniversary of the date of our last drink.







Early celebrations of birthdays resulted in people getting drunk and Dr.

Harry Tiebout was asked to look at the problem and he commented on this

phenomenon in an articled titled "When the Big "I" Becomes Nobody", (AAGV,

Sept. 65)







"Early on in A.A., I was consulted about a serious problem plaguing the

local group. The practice of celebrating a year's sobriety with a birthday

cake had resulted in a certain number of the members getting drunk within a

short period after the celebration. It seemed apparent that some could not

stand prosperity. I was asked to settle between birthday cakes or no

birthday cakes. Characteristically, I begged off, not from shyness but from

ignorance. Some three or four years later, A.A. furnished me the answer. The

group no longer had such a problem because, as one member said, "We

celebrate still, but a year's sobriety is now a dime a dozen. No one gets

much of a kick out of that anymore."







The AAGV carried many articles on chips and cakes and the following is a

brief summary of some.







Feb. 1948, Why All the Congratulations? "When we start taking bows (even on

anniversaries) we bow ourselves right into the cuspidor."







July, 1948. Group To Give Oscar for Anniversaries.



The Larchmont Group of Larchmont, N.Y. gives a cast bronze camel mounted on

a mahogany base to celebrate 1st., 5th and 10th anniversaries.



"The camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e.,

to live for 24 hours without a drink."







August 1948. The Artesta, N.Mex. Group awards marbles to all members. If you

are caught without your marbles, you are fined 25 cents. This money goes

into the Foundation Fund.







June 1953, We operate a poker chip club in the Portland Group (Maine). We

have poker chips of nine colors of which the white represents the probation

period of one month. If he keeps his white chip for one month he is

presented with a red chip for one month's sobriety.



The chips continue with blue for two months, black for three, green for

four, transparent blue for five, amber for six, transparent purple for nine

months and a transparent clear chip for one year. We have our chips stamped

with gold A.A. letters.



Also at the end of the year and each year thereafter, we present them with a

group birthday card signed by all members present at the meeting.







January 1955, Charlotte, N.C. "When a man takes "The Long Walk" at the end

of a meeting, to pick up a white chip, he is admitting to his fellow men

that he has finally accepted the precepts of A.A. and is beginning his

sobriety. At the end of three months he exchanges his white chip for a red

one. Later, a handsome, translucent chip of amber indicates that this new

member has enjoyed six months of a new way of life. The nine month chip is a

clear seagreen and a blue chip is given for the first year of sobriety. In

some groups a sponsor will present his friend with an engraved silver chip,

at the end of five years clear thinking and clean living.







March 1956, The One Ton Poker Chip. Alton, Illinois. Author gave friend a

chip on his first day eight years ago (1948) and told him to accept it in

the spirit of group membership and that if he wanted to drink to throw the

chip away before starting drinking.







October 1956, Bangor Washington. Article about a woman who sits in a bar to

drink the bartender sees her white chips and asks what it is. She tells him.

He throws her out as he does not want an alcoholic in his bar. She calls

friend.







April 1957, Cape Cod, Mass. Group recognizes 1st, 5th and 15th

anniversaries. Person celebrating leads meeting. Person is presented with a

set of wooden carved plaques with the slogans.







July 1957, New Brunswick, Canada. Birthday Board. Member contributes one

dollar for each year of sobriety











July 1957, Oregon. Person is asked to speak and is introduced by his or her

sponsor. The wife, mother, sister or other relative brings up a cake. The

Group sings Happy Birthday. The wife gives a two or thee minute talk.







April 1959, Patterson, N.J. People are asked to give "three month pin

talks."







And that's a little bit of info on chips, cakes and medallions.







Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle?



It was introduced at the 20th Anniversary convention in St. Louis and

registered as a trade mark in 1955.



Bill had seen it during a visit to Norway and brought the idea back to the

U.S. We have the symbols on the floor of one of the subway stations in

Montreal.



When was the grapevine first published? In its present form?



The first issue of the GV was June 1944 in the form of a newspaper and it

was 11X17 and 8 pages. It grew to 16 pages.



In Spetember 1948 it was reduced to the present size.



I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even

some answers!


0 -1 0 0
3261 ArtSheehan
RE: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/17/2006 12:18:00 PM


From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Carey Thomas

Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:43 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Stump the Archivist"



Our Area has started a idea called "Stump the Archivist." The

four questions below have come from attendees at our Area business

weekends.



I have tried the search capability of our site, but have not

mastered its capabilities. Probably the answers to these *questions*

are there, but I could use some help...!



Here is the first batch of four questions we have been asked:



JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST



To Area 15

From Area 65



Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?



Bill W's mistress, Helen W, lived in New York at the time of their 15

year affair. Helen supposedly bought a home in Pleasantville, NY. She

also became a Grapevine editor. Bill changed his will and royalty

agreement with AA to make Helen the beneficiary of 10% of his

royalties after he passed away. The most detailed information on her

can be found in the book "Bill W' by Francis Hartigan.



When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?



Don't know. There would likely be too many locations claiming primacy

on the matter to factually determine the matter conclusively. Sister

Ignatia should be credited with starting the practice of giving

alcoholics a sobriety token. She handed out Sacred Heart Badges to

alcoholic patients leaving St Thomas Hospital in Akron, OH on the

condition that they would return the badge to her prior to taking a

first drink. See the book Sister Ignatia by Mary C Darrah.



Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle?



The logo first appeared on a large banner at AA's 2nd International

Convention, and 10th Anniversary, in Kiel Auditorium, St Louis, MO,

July 1-3, 1955. See "AA Comes of Age" pgs 49 and 139.



When was the grapevine first published? In its present form?



The August 1948 Grapevine announced that beginning September 1948, its

format would be 5 1/2 x 7 1/2 inches and it would contain 32 pages.

The change was based on a vote of subscribers. Early covers were kept

simple, usually consisting of a grapevine sprig and a color

background.



Cheers

Arthur



I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or

even some answers!

_\|/_

(o o)

-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

Carey Thomas

Archivist, Area 15



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3262 Jim Lynch
Re: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 3/17/2006 9:34:00 AM


The authors of our basic text make it clear earlier in the paragraph on page 140

that they have described fully the nature of the illness in chapters two and

three, and suggest that the employer look there "If this presents difficulty,".

The series of questions, of which the "crooked thinking" one is the final

question, begins with the phrase, "If you concede that your employee is ill".



I do not see anything new in this paragraph, rather it is restating some of the

information from chapter 2 and 3 in different language. The chapter is written

to help the employer see that "you may be suffering from an illness that only a

spiritual experience will conquer."



Jim

an ex-problem drinker in Pittsburgh



----- Original Message ----

From: Charlene C. <ccp28para4@yahoo.com>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:57:04 PM

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking



it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual

terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was

considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness.



just a thought.

C. Cook





trixiebellaa <hayntra@aol.com> wrote:

hi history lovers,



Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been

a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol

on his brain?"



One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of

information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the

chapters at the beginning of the book.



Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks from Tracy

The Barking Big Book Study Group

England

















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0 -1 0 0
3263 ArtSheehan
RE: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 3/17/2006 11:43:00 AM


Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just the first

paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter.



I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written in the manner or

with the intent that is often presumed in analyzing it (perhaps

over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting it).



The member who asked the question is using a form of reasoning that

appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical gymnastics. It does

little more than open the door to what can be an endless amount of

speculation that serves more to distract rather than inform.



Many Big Book chapters have a specific target audience (usually

denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's employers.



The underlying assumption that the importance of a sentence is somehow

enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an early or later part of

the book is a flawed assumption being treated as fact.



The most popular, and perhaps important, portion of the Big Book, read

at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How It Works." Trust me,

there is no need to move this chapter further toward the beginning of

the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on its own content as

do all the other chapters.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlene C.

Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking



it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in

intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that

time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a

spiritual mallody or terminal illness.



just a thought.

C. Cook





trixiebellaa <hayntra@aol.com AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.





---------------------------------











---------------------------------

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Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.



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0 -1 0 0
3264 sbanker914@aol.com
Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/17/2006 5:29:00 AM


In a message dated 3/16/2006 4:34:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, jct3@juno.com

writes:

Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?

I found the following from Nan Robertson's book:



. . . quotes Nan Robertson, author of Getting Better: Inside Alcoholics

Anonymous (1988), as follows:



"Particularly during his sober decades in AA in the forties, fifties, and

sixties, Bill Wilson was a compulsive womanizer. His flirtations and his

adulterous behavior filled him with guilt, but he continued to stray off the

reservation. His last and most serious love affair . . . began when he was in

his

sixties. She was important to him until the end of his life, and was remembered

in

a financial agreement with AA. (p. 36)"



This last mistress, Helen W., actually received 1.5% of the royalties from

the Big Book after Bill’s death. As for Bill’s wife, Lois, "she never

mentioned

his philandering," writes Robertson in this history of AA’s founders.



Susan Banker

NYC





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3265 David A Putnam
There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me 3/17/2006 8:01:00 PM


In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned

Heat and Shoe Polish.



I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem

me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is?



Thanks,



Dave P

Westmont Illinois

Monday Night Big Book Meeting


0 -1 0 0
3266 Lee Nickerson
medallions medallions 3/18/2006 10:11:00 AM


In a taped interview with Jimmy D. (Sober since 1947, died 1999) of

Portland, Maine, he told me that Arthur W. gave out medallions to his

pigeons. He apparently started this practice in 1946 after the

Portland Group (still going) got started. Jimmy donated his medallions

to the archives. Arthur got these from a company called Bright Star

Press which at the time was in Illinois and I believe moved to Texas.

I am not saying that the practice of medallions started here, just

that this is the earliest I have heard of it in Maine. I also had an

old timer tell me that they used to give out nickels to make phone

calls.

lee


0 -1 0 0
3267 Tom Hickcox
Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/17/2006 10:55:00 PM


At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote:







> JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST

>

> Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?

>

>Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history.

>

> When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?

>

>Chips, Medallions and Birthdays

>

>

>

>

>

>The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of

>the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the

>history on them.

>



Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and

birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A.



Tommy in Baton Rouge





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3268 Joe Nugent
RE: There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me 3/18/2006 3:48:00 PM


"Bayzo" was a term first used during prohibition to describe someone who

drank bay rum, because of its high alcohol content.



Bay rum was used as an aftershave, and has that distinctive old school

smell.





_____



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David A Putnam

Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:02 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] There' s Nothing The Matter With Me





In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned

Heat and Shoe Polish.



I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem

me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is?



Thanks,



Dave P

Westmont Illinois

Monday Night Big Book Meeting

















SPONSORED LINKS

Addiction

<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Addiction+recovery+program&w1=Addiction

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w4=Christian+addiction+recovery&w5=Alcoholics+anonymous&c=5&s=152&.sig=T1Cku

nD5Z44PSneqNOhpCw> addiction recovery Alcoholics

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0 -1 0 0
3269 prpllady51
Sneaky Pete and Bayzo Sneaky Pete and Bayzo 3/18/2006 4:04:00 PM


Sneaky Pete was slang for a pint bottle of cheap muscatel with grain

alcohol added to pump up the proof to 40. It cost around 35 cents

and was a flat bottle, which would fit in one's back pocket.



Bayzo was the slang for Bay Rum. Bay rum was used as an aftershave.





Jocelyn

Parkway West

Pittsburgh PA





David A Putnam <Dputnam@interaccess.Com> wrote:

In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo,

Canned

Heat and Shoe Polish.



I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone

enlightem

me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is?



Thanks,



Dave P

Westmont Illinois

Monday Night Big Book Meeting


0 -1 0 0
3270 James Blair
Re: medallions medallions 3/18/2006 8:09:00 PM


Lee wrote

He apparently started this practice in 1946 after the

Portland Group (still going) got started. Jimmy donated his medallions to

the archives. Arthur got these from a company called Bright Star Press

which at the time was in Illinois and I believe moved to Texas.



Brigh Star's web site claims that they went into business in 1950.

Jim


0 -1 0 0
3271 Carter Elliott
Re: Stump the Archivists Stump the Archivists 3/18/2006 8:28:00 PM


As Bill Sees It contains thirty-one entries sourced to "Letter, 1966". Do we

know if this letter was a single, philosophical essay or letters collected from

his general correspondence?



Carter E., Blacksburg, VA





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0 -1 0 0
3272 johnlawlee
Re: authorship of Chapter 10 authorship of Chapter 10 3/18/2006 12:28:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@...>

wrote:

>

> Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just the first

> paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter.

>

> I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written in the manner or

> with the intent that is often presumed in analyzing it (perhaps

> over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting it).

>

> The member who asked the question is using a form of reasoning that

> appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical gymnastics. It does

> little more than open the door to what can be an endless amount of

> speculation that serves more to distract rather than inform.

>

> Many Big Book chapters have a specific target audience (usually

> denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's employers.

>

> The underlying assumption that the importance of a sentence is

somehow

> enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an early or later part

of

> the book is a flawed assumption being treated as fact.

>

> The most popular, and perhaps important, portion of the Big Book,

read

> at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How It Works." Trust

me,

> there is no need to move this chapter further toward the beginning

of

> the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on its own content

as

> do all the other chapters.

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlene C.

> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking

>

> it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in

> intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that

> time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a

> spiritual mallody or terminal illness.

>

> just a thought.

> C. Cook

>

> Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of

"To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always found that hard

to believe, based on the contrast between the divergent styles of

Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. Hank's story, "The

Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled with

elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected that Bill Wilson did

the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank supplied many of the

ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock shared a small office

in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I don't see any

language in Hank's story which is similar to the content or style of

Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit for the

contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred to William James

as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James had been dead for

decades when AA was founded.

The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order for employers.

They're asking employers to read the Big Book and use it to "12 step"

their employees. I don't see any information in Chapter 10 which is

inconsistent with the first five chapters. The intended audience was

different. It's not a different message.

john lee

member

pittsburgh

> trixiebellaa <hayntra@...> wrote:

> hi history lovers,

>

> Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has

> been

> a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of

alcohol

>

> on his brain?"

>

> One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece

of

>

> information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of

the

> chapters at the beginning of the book.

>

> Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Thanks from Tracy

> The Barking Big Book Study Group

> England

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> SPONSORED LINKS

> Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction

> Addiction recovery center Christian addiction recovery

> Alcoholics anonymous

>

> ---------------------------------

> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

>

>

> Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

>

> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

> Service.

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Mail

> Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>


0 -1 0 0
3273 wilfried antheunis
the spirit of rotation the spirit of rotation 3/19/2006 2:23:00 PM


Can any one say when this saying: "The spirit of rotation" came into use"?

and is it and its usage documented?

thanks.

wil


0 -1 0 0
3274 timderan
RE: medallions medallions 3/20/2006 1:08:00 AM


"Bright Star's web site claims that they went into business in 1950."







As a matter of information, Bright Star is still a good source of

medallions.



But, there is also the point that in the earliest days poker chips inscribed

with one's sobriety date on it were used as signs of lengths of sobriety.

Which might be why tokens/medallions are sometimes referred to as chips.



tmd


0 -1 0 0
3275 Steve Leeds
Bill W. - One Man''s Story - Recording Information Sought Bill W. - One Man''s Story - Recording Information Sought 3/20/2006 11:35:00 AM


Hey All,



I recently got a copy of a recording that had no information with it

other than the title "One Man's Story"



Here's a few things that might help:



West Coast

Outside

Bill thanks a Mayor

Lois speaks early in the tape

Ebby Speaks early

Bill makes reference to it being the Sunrise of AA



Thanks,

Steven









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3276 David Johnson
Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/19/2006 5:14:00 PM


As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and women who share

their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to say Bill W.'s life,

the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of A.A. history,

especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal agreements with him.



Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for

this group is quite good and uncovered the following:



This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty

information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan

1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of

his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W.



Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as well.



These are purported copies of the actual will of Bill Wilson and

mention : http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html and

http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The relevant quote: "A. I

give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10%

royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to his mistress

Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life

interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN

WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of

such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions

of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST."



If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these documents OR disprove

their veracity, I'd be most obliged.



"We claim progress, not perfection." There is a desire among some AA

history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and development of AA. When

one begins to add up references to the "original message" and claiming

only the first 164 pages (actually just the first 163 as p. 164

includes the line "We realize we only know but a little ....")are the

"real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away from plurality

can be seen.



AA has helped me develop a personal relationship with a God loving and

powerful enough to make use of even my defects of character. To

acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's founders, is also

to come to appreciate the power of the principles of the program.



L'Chaim!





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@...>

wrote:

>

> At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote:

>

>

>

> > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST

> >

> > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?

> >

> >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history.

> >

> > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?

> >

> >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different

parts of

> >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some

of the

> >history on them.

> >

>

> Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and

> birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A.

>

> Tommy in Baton Rouge

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>


0 -1 0 0
3277 James Blair
Re: Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/20/2006 2:11:00 PM


David wrote

As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and women who share their

experience, strength and hope," I'd have to say Bill W.'s life, the good,

the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of A.A. history, especially where it

affected AAWS and it's legal agreements with him.



The agreement between Bill W. and the AAWS is no one's business but the

officers of that corporation and the relatives of Bill W.



Why can't members understand that.



BTW, we share our experience, strength and hope in order that we may solve

our common problem and help others to revover from alcoholism and not to

delve into private business.

Jim













>

> Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for

> this group is quite good and uncovered the following:

>

> This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty

> information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan

> 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of

> his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W.

>

> Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as well.

>

> These are purported copies of the actual will of Bill Wilson and

> mention : http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html and

> http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The relevant quote: "A. I

> give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10%

> royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to his mistress

> Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life

> interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN

> WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of

> such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions

> of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST."

>

> If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these documents OR disprove

> their veracity, I'd be most obliged.

>

> "We claim progress, not perfection." There is a desire among some AA

> history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and development of AA. When

> one begins to add up references to the "original message" and claiming

> only the first 164 pages (actually just the first 163 as p. 164

> includes the line "We realize we only know but a little ....")are the

> "real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away from plurality

> can be seen.

>

> AA has helped me develop a personal relationship with a God loving and

> powerful enough to make use of even my defects of character. To

> acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's founders, is also

> to come to appreciate the power of the principles of the program.

>

> L'Chaim!

>

>

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@...>

> wrote:

>>

>> At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>> > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST

>> >

>> > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?

>> >

>> >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history.

>> >

>> > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?

>> >

>> >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different

> parts of

>> >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some

> of the

>> >history on them.

>> >

>>

>> Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and

>> birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A.

>>

>> Tommy in Baton Rouge

>>

>>

>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3278 ArtSheehan
RE: Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/20/2006 5:47:00 PM


Hi David



In regards to citing information from the AAHL archives please also

include message 2933, subject: Bill W and Helen.



----------

Hi Merton



Bill W, like any other human being, had his strengths and weaknesses.

One of his weaknesses was reputedly a "fondness for the ladies." I am

not out to demean Bill but we also should be careful not to elevate

him to demigod status.



The euphemism of "Founder's Watch" emanates from Francis Hartigan's

book "Bill W" (re pg 192). Hartigan was told of it by Barry L (author

of "Living Sober").



Hartigan reveals in detail Bill's relationship with his mistress Helen

W. She was the woman for whom Bill changed his will and royalty

agreement to bequeath her 10% of his book royalties. That had to be an

excruciating embarrassment to Lois.



Humans tend to be humans whether they are named Bill W or Bill Clinton

or Dr Martin Luther King or John or Bobby Kennedy, etc., etc. Their

human frailties should not diminish their extraordinary contributions

to humanity.



Cheers

Arthur

----------



In the ('heirs.htm") web link that you reference in your message,

download the PDF file that contains the last will and testament of

Lois W (it should be W.pdf). It contains photo-copies of her actual

will and relevant documents (as opposed to transcriptions). Bill's

will and codicil are also contained in Lois W will.



Cheers

Again



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Johnson

Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 4:14 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "Stump the Archivist"



As Alcoholics Anonymous is "a fellowship of men and women who share

their experience, strength and hope," I'd have to say Bill W.'s life,

the good, the bad and the ugly, is ALL a part of A.A. history,

especially where it affected AAWS and it's legal agreements with him.





Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for

this group is quite good and uncovered the following:



This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty

information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan

1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of

his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W.



Of course, we have Art Sheehan's most recent post as well.



These are purported copies of the actual will of Bill Wilson and

mention : http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BillWill.html and

http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/heirs.htm. The relevant quote: "A. I

give and bequeath to HELEN WYNN [Bill changed his Will to take 10%

royalties from his wife Lois and give those 10% to his mistress

Helen], of Pleasantville, New York, if she survives me, a life

interest in ten percent (10%) of such royalties. If the said HELEN

WYNN does not survive me, I direct that the said ten percent (10%) of

such royalties shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions

of Paragraphs B or C, as the case my be of this Article FIRST."



If anyone can corroborate the veracity of these documents OR disprove

their veracity, I'd be most obliged.



"We claim progress, not perfection." There is a desire among some AA

history buffs to "sanitize" the progress and development of AA. When

one begins to add up references to the "original message" and claiming

only the first 164 pages (actually just the first 163 as p. 164

includes the line "We realize we only know but a little ....")are the

"real" A.A., a trend towards fundamentalism and away from plurality

can be seen.



AA has helped me develop a personal relationship with a God loving and

powerful enough to make use of even my defects of character. To

acknowledge the humanness of AA's members, even it's founders, is also

to come to appreciate the power of the principles of the program.



L'Chaim!





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@...>

wrote:

>

> At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote:

>

>

>

> > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST

> >

> > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?

> >

> >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history.

> >

> > When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?

> >

> >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different

parts of

> >the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some

of the

> >history on them.

> >

>

> Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and

> birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of

A.A.

>

> Tommy in Baton Rouge

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>



















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3279 ArtSheehan
RE: the spirit of rotation the spirit of rotation 3/20/2006 4:23:00 PM


Abby G (whose Big Book story is "He Thought He Could Drink Like a

Gentleman") was an AA pioneer in Cleveland, OH.



He is credited with instituting the practice and principle of rotation

in stepping down from his position on the Cleveland Central Committee.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wilfried

antheunis

Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 1:24 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] the spirit of rotation





Can any one say when this saying: "The spirit of rotation" came into

use"?

and is it and its usage documented?

thanks.

wil













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3280 Mitchell K.
Re: Re: authorship of Chapter 10 authorship of Chapter 10 3/20/2006 7:05:00 PM


If one just takes a written story published in the Big

Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is

not doing diligent service to historical research.

There are several letters written by Hank and other

documents, including oral histories which give

authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish

I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me

Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping

Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth,

Clarence and others as well as my reading several

letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to

believe Hank was the author.







--- johnlawlee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com> wrote:



> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan"

> <ArtSheehan@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just

> the first

> > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter.

> >

> > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written

> in the manner or

> > with the intent that is often presumed in

> analyzing it (perhaps

> > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting

> it).

> >

> > The member who asked the question is using a form

> of reasoning that

> > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical

> gymnastics. It does

> > little more than open the door to what can be an

> endless amount of

> > speculation that serves more to distract rather

> than inform.

> >

> > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target

> audience (usually

> > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's

> employers.

> >

> > The underlying assumption that the importance of a

> sentence is

> somehow

> > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an

> early or later part

> of

> > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as

> fact.

> >

> > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion

> of the Big Book,

> read

> > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How

> It Works." Trust

> me,

> > there is no need to move this chapter further

> toward the beginning

> of

> > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on

> its own content

> as

> > do all the other chapters.

> >

> > Cheers

> > Arthur

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> Of Charlene C.

> > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM

> > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > Subject: AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> >

> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the

> Yahoo! Terms of

> > Service.

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Yahoo! Mail

> > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying

> attachments.

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3281 Mitchell K.
Re: Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/20/2006 6:56:00 PM


To my knowledge and from the sources (other than

Orange papers which got the info from aamo) I do

believe these documents to be copies of the originals

which are a matter of public record.







--- David Johnson <crescentdave@yahoo.com AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , Tom Hickcox

> <cometkazie1@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > > JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST

> > >

> > > Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in

> Miami?

> > >

> > >Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do

> with AA history.

> > >

> > > When and where did the poker chip tradition

> start for the groups?

> > >

> > >Chips, Medallions and Birthdays

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays

> vary in different

> parts of

> > >the country and I thought it would be interesting

> to look up some

> of the

> > >history on them.

> > >

> >

> > Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions,

> and

> > birthdays/anniversaries. They are local

> traditions and not part of A.A.

> >

> > Tommy in Baton Rouge

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3282 johnlawlee
Re: authorship of Chapter 10 authorship of Chapter 10 3/21/2006 6:40:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:

>

Mitchell:

I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote

"The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To Employers".

There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they

were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can

point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies

language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers"; for

that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The Unbeliever"

which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big Book.

"The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato, almost

hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the person

who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter

10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As

just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of Chapter

10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It contains full

suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare 143-

44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier Chapter

4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a Power...which will

solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you,

line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used

identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote Chapter

10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book.

It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank did

in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied

Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have also

completely changed his writing style and language in a six month

period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better

view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by the

same person. They were not written at all by the person who

authored "The Unbeliever".

I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that Hank

authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to refer

to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's one-

time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10. I

have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10. Hank

was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in

Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed Chapters

1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office every

day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill

had done the writing.

In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author

[the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through 11.

There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank

composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects,

hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William

James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA. It should

not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing Hank

to take credit for Chapter 10.

love+service

john lee

pittsburgh





> If one just takes a written story published in the Big

> Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is

> not doing diligent service to historical research.

> There are several letters written by Hank and other

> documents, including oral histories which give

> authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish

> I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me

> Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping

> Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth,

> Clarence and others as well as my reading several

> letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to

> believe Hank was the author.

>

>

>

> --- johnlawlee <johnlawlee@...> wrote:

>

> > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan"

> > <ArtSheehan@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just

> > the first

> > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter.

> > >

> > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written

> > in the manner or

> > > with the intent that is often presumed in

> > analyzing it (perhaps

> > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting

> > it).

> > >

> > > The member who asked the question is using a form

> > of reasoning that

> > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical

> > gymnastics. It does

> > > little more than open the door to what can be an

> > endless amount of

> > > speculation that serves more to distract rather

> > than inform.

> > >

> > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target

> > audience (usually

> > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's

> > employers.

> > >

> > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a

> > sentence is

> > somehow

> > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an

> > early or later part

> > of

> > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as

> > fact.

> > >

> > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion

> > of the Big Book,

> > read

> > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How

> > It Works." Trust

> > me,

> > > there is no need to move this chapter further

> > toward the beginning

> > of

> > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on

> > its own content

> > as

> > > do all the other chapters.

> > >

> > > Cheers

> > > Arthur

> > >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > > AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking

> > >

> > > it would be my guess that employers are more

> > inclined to think in

> > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual.

> > especially in that

> > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a

> > moral dilema than a

> > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness.

> > >

> > > just a thought.

> > > C. Cook

> > >

> > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of

> >

> > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always

> > found that hard

> > to believe, based on the contrast between the

> > divergent styles of

> > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition.

> > Hank's story, "The

> > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled

> > with

> > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected

> > that Bill Wilson did

> > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank

> > supplied many of the

> > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock

> > shared a small office

> > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I

> > don't see any

> > language in Hank's story which is similar to the

> > content or style of

> > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit

> > for the

> > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred

> > to William James

> > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James

> > had been dead for

> > decades when AA was founded.

> > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order

> > for employers.

> > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and

> > use it to "12 step"

> > their employees. I don't see any information in

> > Chapter 10 which is

> > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The

> > intended audience was

> > different. It's not a different message.

> > john lee

> > member

> > pittsburgh

> > > trixiebellaa <hayntra@> wrote:

> > > hi history lovers,

> > >

> > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be

> > appreciated that he has

> > > been

> > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by

> > the action of

> > alcohol

> > >

> > > on his brain?"

> > >

> > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such

> > an important piece

> > of

> > >

> > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of

> > perhaps one of

> > the

> > > chapters at the beginning of the book.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

> > >

> > > Thanks from Tracy

> > > The Barking Big Book Study Group

> > > England

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > SPONSORED LINKS

> > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from

> > addiction

> > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction

> > recovery

> > > Alcoholics anonymous

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

> > >

> > >

> > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

> > >

> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email

> > to:

> > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> > >

> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the

> > Yahoo! Terms of

> > > Service.

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Yahoo! Mail

> > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying

> > attachments.

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Yahoo! Groups Links

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>


0 -1 0 0
3283 Art Boudreault
Re: Digest Number 875 Digest Number 875 3/22/2006 10:57:00 AM


To History Lovers,



RE: BillW and Helen W.



The new biography of Lois Wilson, "Lois Wilson, When Love is not enough" by

William Borchert has a different interpretation of the payment of royalties

to Bill's long time secretary. He does not mention an affair in this regard.



Sincerely,



Art Boudreault



Which is where Bill's mistress comes in. The "search" function for

> this group is quite good and uncovered the following:

>

> This is from Message # 2519 and part of a larger post on royalty

> information re: The Big Book. The author: Art Sheehan

> 1963 - Bill modified his royalty agreement with AAWS so that 10% of

> his royalties went to his mistress, Grapevine Editor, Helen W.


0 -1 0 0
3284 ArtSheehan
RE: Re: authorship of Chapter 10 authorship of Chapter 10 3/22/2006 8:09:00 PM


Hi John



In this forum, if we are to be true propagating history, then we

should impose upon ourselves the discipline of sticking to articles of

fact rather than articles of faith or speculation. Otherwise debate

and editorials take precedence over historical reporting.



Please refer to "Pass It On" (page 200) which states "Bill wrote at

least ten of the opening chapters of the book; there is some reason to

believe that "To Employers" may have been written by Hank." This

Conference-approved book, was published in 1984.



A member of this forum is its primary author of "pass It On." If the

statement in the book did not have merit, it would have been excised

some time ago. Mitchell K, also an author, relayed information he

received through testimonial from Ruth Hock (a first person observer).

Merton M, a member of this forum, is researching a comprehensive

history of AA in New Jersey (which was started by Hank P). Merton also

attributes authorship of "To Employers" to Hank P based on his

research (and he is a bit of a stickler for accurate details).



All you offer in rebuttal is a rather obscure hypothesis that since

the style and content of Hank's Big Book story are different than the

chapter "To Employers" that excludes Hank from authoring the chapter.



There is no compelling reason why the styles of these two items should

be identical or even similar. Hank also wrote a prospectus for the Big

Book whose style is altogether different than his story. The

prospectus is quite well structured, precise and cogent.



Hank was previously a Vice-president for Standard Oil and would have

been eminently qualified to write the chapter from the perspective of

an employer. It was a type of experience that Bill didn't have

(although Bill wasn't a wife either but wrote the chapter "To Wives").



The idea that Bill only wrote the first paragraph of "To Employers" in

no way detracts from or diminishes his role in the overall production

of the Big Book. Bill's methodology for writing the Big Book chapters

was for him to develop an outline of the chapters on a yellow legal

pad and then later dictate narrative details to Ruth Hock to type up

drafts.



The drafts were then presented to NY, Akron and Cleveland members for

editing and changes. The consistency of terminology and style among

the chapters was a function of membership review not of Bill's writing

style, personal preferences or attention to detail.



The Big Book is unique in that it is the only literary work in AA

where everyone who was a member at the time (1938-1939) had an

opportunity to directly contribute to shaping both the wording and

style of the book. This also included non-alcoholic friends of AA:



1. Dr Silkworth wrote a letter of support for AA for use in

fundraising for the book. The letter, and additional narrative from Dr

Silkworth, were incorporated into the chapter "The Doctor’s Opinion."



2. 28 members submitted their stories for the book. These stories,

then and today, make up a substantial and very important portion of

the Big Book (notwithstanding the tiresome "first 164 pages" mantra

that circulates within AA).



3. Jim B (whose story is "Vicious Cycle") suggested the phrases “God

as we understand Him” and “Power greater than ourselves” be added to

the Steps and basic text.



4. A psychiatrist "Dr Howard" (an alias) caused the whole tone of the

book to be changed from "must" to "should" or "ought."



5. Tom Uzzell, a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier’s and a member

of the NYU faculty, edited the manuscript which was variously

estimated as 600-800 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell

reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the

personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S of Akron and

Bill W and Hank P in NY.



The Big Book is a product of informed group conscience and, as a

consequence, it turned out to be a very remarkable product. By his own

admission, Bill wrote that his role eventually changed from one of

primary author to umpire.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee

Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:40 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: authorship of Chapter 10



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:

>

Mitchell:

I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote

"The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To Employers".

There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they

were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can

point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies

language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers"; for

that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The Unbeliever"

which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big Book.

"The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato, almost

hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the person

who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter

10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As

just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of Chapter

10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It contains full

suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare 143-

44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier Chapter

4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a Power...which will

solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you,

line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used

identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote Chapter

10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book.

It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank did

in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied

Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have also

completely changed his writing style and language in a six month

period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better

view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by the

same person. They were not written at all by the person who

authored "The Unbeliever".

I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that Hank

authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to refer

to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's one-

time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10. I

have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10. Hank

was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in

Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed Chapters

1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office every

day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill

had done the writing.

In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author

[the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through 11.

There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank

composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects,

hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William

James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA. It should

not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing Hank

to take credit for Chapter 10.

love+service

john lee

pittsburgh





> If one just takes a written story published in the Big

> Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is

> not doing diligent service to historical research.

> There are several letters written by Hank and other

> documents, including oral histories which give

> authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish

> I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me

> Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping

> Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth,

> Clarence and others as well as my reading several

> letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to

> believe Hank was the author.

>

>

>

> --- johnlawlee <johnlawlee@...> wrote:

>

> > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan"

> > <ArtSheehan@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just

> > the first

> > > paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter.

> > >

> > > I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written

> > in the manner or

> > > with the intent that is often presumed in

> > analyzing it (perhaps

> > > over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting

> > it).

> > >

> > > The member who asked the question is using a form

> > of reasoning that

> > > appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical

> > gymnastics. It does

> > > little more than open the door to what can be an

> > endless amount of

> > > speculation that serves more to distract rather

> > than inform.

> > >

> > > Many Big Book chapters have a specific target

> > audience (usually

> > > denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's

> > employers.

> > >

> > > The underlying assumption that the importance of a

> > sentence is

> > somehow

> > > enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an

> > early or later part

> > of

> > > the book is a flawed assumption being treated as

> > fact.

> > >

> > > The most popular, and perhaps important, portion

> > of the Big Book,

> > read

> > > at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How

> > It Works." Trust

> > me,

> > > there is no need to move this chapter further

> > toward the beginning

> > of

> > > the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on

> > its own content

> > as

> > > do all the other chapters.

> > >

> > > Cheers

> > > Arthur

> > >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> > Of Charlene C.

> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM

> > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking

> > >

> > > it would be my guess that employers are more

> > inclined to think in

> > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual.

> > especially in that

> > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a

> > moral dilema than a

> > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness.

> > >

> > > just a thought.

> > > C. Cook

> > >

> > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of

> >

> > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always

> > found that hard

> > to believe, based on the contrast between the

> > divergent styles of

> > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition.

> > Hank's story, "The

> > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled

> > with

> > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected

> > that Bill Wilson did

> > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank

> > supplied many of the

> > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock

> > shared a small office

> > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I

> > don't see any

> > language in Hank's story which is similar to the

> > content or style of

> > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit

> > for the

> > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred

> > to William James

> > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James

> > had been dead for

> > decades when AA was founded.

> > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order

> > for employers.

> > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and

> > use it to "12 step"

> > their employees. I don't see any information in

> > Chapter 10 which is

> > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The

> > intended audience was

> > different. It's not a different message.

> > john lee

> > member

> > pittsburgh

> > > trixiebellaa <hayntra@> wrote:

> > > hi history lovers,

> > >

> > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be

> > appreciated that he has

> > > been

> > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by

> > the action of

> > alcohol

> > >

> > > on his brain?"

> > >

> > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such

> > an important piece

> > of

> > >

> > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of

> > perhaps one of

> > the

> > > chapters at the beginning of the book.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

> > >

> > > Thanks from Tracy

> > > The Barking Big Book Study Group

> > > England

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > SPONSORED LINKS

> > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from

> > addiction

> > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction

> > recovery

> > > Alcoholics anonymous

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

> > >

> > >

> > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

> > >

> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email

> > to:

> > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> > >

> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the

> > Yahoo! Terms of

> > > Service.

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Yahoo! Mail

> > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying

> > attachments.

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Yahoo! Groups Links

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>





















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3285 Jari Kokkinen
about poker chips about poker chips 3/23/2006 12:36:00 PM


Hi everyone!



must tell you about an incident that relates to poker chips. About a year ago

I saw

the film "Sting" and in it the players in a poker game used chips that had the

symbols

of AA - the circle inside the triangle on their reverse side. I wonder if

anybody would have any comments clarifying that coincidence or would just have

noticed the same thing?



In Sobriety,



Jari - an AA from Finland





---------------------------------

To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo!

Security Centre.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3286 ny-aa@att.net
To Employers & Wives (was: authorship ...) To Employers & Wives (was: authorship ...) 3/24/2006 11:11:00 AM


Let me go back to one of the original questions of why the Big Book puts

"important information" in chapters To Wives and To Employers instead

of at the "front of the book." The title of a chapter does not imply its

sole intended audience. Should alcoholics who don't consider themselves

to be agnostics skip the We Agnostics chapter? These chapters give the

alcoholic reader a chance to see alcoholism from a different point of

view.



Bill overheard Dr. Silkworth tell Lois what would happen if Bill continued

drinking. This caught his attention. Anonymous Number Three overheard Bill

say to Dr. Bob, "Well, I believe he's worth saving and working on." Often

what we overhear about ourselves has more impact than what is said directly

to us.



And, of course, the Stories section contains "our personal adventures

before and after." There is "important information" there too.


0 -1 0 0
3287 Mike and Sarah
Re: Bill W. - One Man''s Story - Recording Information Sought Bill W. - One Man''s Story - Recording Information Sought 3/23/2006 12:11:00 PM


3-23-06



About 'One Man's Story' -



It's from the 1960 25th Anniversary of AA, 3rd International Convention

held at Long Beach California.



Mike



-----Original Message-----

>From: Steve Leeds <sleeds@canyonridge.org>

>Sent: Mar 20, 2006 8:35 AM

>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W. - One Man's Story - Recording Information

Sought

>

>Hey All,

>

>I recently got a copy of a recording that had no information with it

>other than the title "One Man's Story"

>

>Here's a few things that might help:

>

>West Coast

>Outside

>Bill thanks a Mayor

>Lois speaks early in the tape

>Ebby Speaks early

>Bill makes reference to it being the Sunrise of AA

>

>Thanks,

>Steven

>

>

>

>

>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3288 johnlawlee
Re: authorship of Chapter 10/Openmindedness authorship of Chapter 10/Openmindedness 3/24/2006 10:36:00 AM


Art:

Text comparison is not an "obscure hypothesis." Text comparison

is the primary method used by historians to resolve disputes in

authorship and authenticity. Witness the current trial going on in

London over the borrowed language in the DaVinci Code novel. Text

comparison is used to determine the source of writings, be they those

of Mozart, Hemingway, or the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The claim that Hank Parkhurst authored Chapter 10 of the Big

Book is an AA myth. The myth was initiated by the boastings of Hank,

and perpetuated by the anti=Bill Wilson faction of AA.

There are many myths in the AA Conference-approved literature.

Doctor Bob did not have his last drink on June 10th. Herbert Spencer

did not author the quote attributed to him in the Spiritual

Experience Appendix. William James never indicated that the

educational variety of spiritual experience "develop[s] slowly", as

claimed in Appendix I of the Big Book.

Hank's story in the first edition big book is an incohesive

mess. It represents Hank's view of his own alcoholism, and was

written in the exact time period that Bill Wilson was dictating the

first eleven chapters of the Big Book. "The Unbeliever" is rambling,

choppy and laughably melodramatic. It's a bunch of phrasings strung

together in no particular order, punctuated by constant ellipses,

exclamation points and question marks. As I've indicated in my two

previous postings, there is no language/terms/style in Hank's story

similar to the language/terms/style of Chapter 10 ["To Employers"].

The person who wrote "The Unbeliever" was incapable of writing the

cohesive, integrated message set forth in "To Employers".

Your reliance on Pass It On is misplaced. That book, published

in 1984, only says that there is "some reason to believe"...that

Chapter 10 "may" have been written by Hank. That's hardly a ringing

endorsement of authorship by Hank P. Let's look at a PRIMARY source,

to wit, Bill Wilson's signed Forward at the front of "As Bill Sees

It" [originally called "The AA Way Of Life"]. Bill's Forward, dated

April 1967, asserts that it has been his "privilege to write the

following: the text of Alcoholic Anonymous..." There...that should

be the end of this discussion. Wilson does not accredit Hank with

authorship of any part of the basic text. Bill is a PRIMARY source.

The statement of authorship was made and signed by the author, in a

conference approved publication.

The myth that Hank wrote Chapter 10 is based on second or third

hand impressions of those familiar with Hank's boasting. Hank was a

big idea guy. He was not a writer of any merit. He was a sales

manager, not a writer. Bill Wilson was not a "good" writer, but he

was a precise writer who composed chapters that were cohesive and

related to each other. It is unfortunate that the interviewer of Ruth

Hock did not ask Ruth for any details about

the writing of Chapter 10, which details could confirm Hank's

participation in the writing of that Chapter. Ruth is a good source

for information on the drafting of the Big Book. It would have been

most helpful if Ruth had said, "Yes. I'll never forget that rainy

Monday morning Hank got into the office early, with a sheaf of

handwritten notes about our book. Bill was so relieved, because we

had been waiting weeks for Hank to finish his chapter, so we could

send the manuscript to the groups."

What do I think happened? Hank lobbied for the assignment of

writing the chapter "To Employers"; however, Hank never got around to

actually writing the chapter. Tired of waiting for Hank's

contribution, Bill wrote Chapter 10 himself, and sent out the

manuscript. Hank subsequently claimed credit for Chapter 10 to anyone

who would listen. Hank's confabulation became an AA myth. Bill Wilson

acquiesced to the myth. By 1967, there was no longer any reason for

Bill to carry the myth. Bill publically re-established his authorship

in the Forward to As Bill Sees It in 1967.

In fairness to Hank, the Big Book would have never been

published without Hank's efforts. I suspect the whole idea of a

basic text was Hank's idea rather than Bill's. Hank stood elbow-to-

elbow with Bill for months while Bill dictated the basic text to

Ruth. I'm sure Hank's ideas were constantly being injected into the

basic text as it was being drafted. Hank just didn't do the actual

drafting, dictating or composing. He was a talker, an idea guy.

Hank was an unstable man. He made wild claims that he hadn't

been paid for his office furniture, and that the records and accounts

of Works Publishing had been stolen. Hank made trips to Ohio to

undermine Bill Wilson. Bill displayed continuing forbearance towards

Hank, and towards Bill's antagonists in Ohio.

In summary, there is no language in the First Edition to suggest

that Hank wrote Chapter 10. That myth is based on Hank's bald claims

of authorship. A conference approved Forward from Bill Wilson in 1967

confirms that Bill wrote the text of the Big Book.

Pass it on.

johm lee

pittsburgh



>

> Hi John

>

> In this forum, if we are to be true propagating history, then we

> should impose upon ourselves the discipline of sticking to articles

of

> fact rather than articles of faith or speculation. Otherwise debate

> and editorials take precedence over historical reporting.

>

> Please refer to "Pass It On" (page 200) which states "Bill wrote at

> least ten of the opening chapters of the book; there is some reason

to

> believe that "To Employers" may have been written by Hank." This

> Conference-approved book, was published in 1984.

>

> A member of this forum is its primary author of "pass It On." If the

> statement in the book did not have merit, it would have been excised

> some time ago. Mitchell K, also an author, relayed information he

> received through testimonial from Ruth Hock (a first person

observer).

> Merton M, a member of this forum, is researching a comprehensive

> history of AA in New Jersey (which was started by Hank P). Merton

also

> attributes authorship of "To Employers" to Hank P based on his

> research (and he is a bit of a stickler for accurate details).

>

> All you offer in rebuttal is a rather obscure hypothesis that since

> the style and content of Hank's Big Book story are different than

the

> chapter "To Employers" that excludes Hank from authoring the

chapter.

>

> There is no compelling reason why the styles of these two items

should

> be identical or even similar. Hank also wrote a prospectus for the

Big

> Book whose style is altogether different than his story. The

> prospectus is quite well structured, precise and cogent.

>

> Hank was previously a Vice-president for Standard Oil and would have

> been eminently qualified to write the chapter from the perspective

of

> an employer. It was a type of experience that Bill didn't have

> (although Bill wasn't a wife either but wrote the chapter "To

Wives").

>

> The idea that Bill only wrote the first paragraph of "To Employers"

in

> no way detracts from or diminishes his role in the overall

production

> of the Big Book. Bill's methodology for writing the Big Book

chapters

> was for him to develop an outline of the chapters on a yellow legal

> pad and then later dictate narrative details to Ruth Hock to type up

> drafts.

>

> The drafts were then presented to NY, Akron and Cleveland members

for

> editing and changes. The consistency of terminology and style among

> the chapters was a function of membership review not of Bill's

writing

> style, personal preferences or attention to detail.

>

> The Big Book is unique in that it is the only literary work in AA

> where everyone who was a member at the time (1938-1939) had an

> opportunity to directly contribute to shaping both the wording and

> style of the book. This also included non-alcoholic friends of AA:

>

> 1. Dr Silkworth wrote a letter of support for AA for use in

> fundraising for the book. The letter, and additional narrative from

Dr

> Silkworth, were incorporated into the chapter "The Doctor's

Opinion."

>

> 2. 28 members submitted their stories for the book. These stories,

> then and today, make up a substantial and very important portion of

> the Big Book (notwithstanding the tiresome "first 164 pages" mantra

> that circulates within AA).

>

> 3. Jim B (whose story is "Vicious Cycle") suggested the phrases "God

> as we understand Him" and "Power greater than ourselves" be added to

> the Steps and basic text.

>

> 4. A psychiatrist "Dr Howard" (an alias) caused the whole tone of

the

> book to be changed from "must" to "should" or "ought."

>

> 5. Tom Uzzell, a friend of Hank P, an editor at Collier's and a

member

> of the NYU faculty, edited the manuscript which was variously

> estimated as 600-800 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell

> reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts came from the

> personal stories, which had also been edited by Jim S of Akron and

> Bill W and Hank P in NY.

>

> The Big Book is a product of informed group conscience and, as a

> consequence, it turned out to be a very remarkable product. By his

own

> admission, Bill wrote that his role eventually changed from one of

> primary author to umpire.

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johnlawlee

> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:40 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , "Mitchell K."

> <mitchell_k_archivist@> wrote:

> >

> Mitchell:

> I stand by my earlier posting. The person who wrote

> "The Unbeliever" is not the person who wrote "To Employers".

> There is absolutely no overlap between the two, although they

> were both written in 1938 or early 1939. I don't believe you can

> point to a single phrase in "The Unbeliever" which supplies

> language/terms/style similar to that found in "To Employers"; for

> that matter, there is no language or phrasing in "The Unbeliever"

> which is similar to language or phrasing in any part of the Big

Book.

> "The Unbeliever" is a farrago, a confused mess...staccato, almost

> hallucinatory style. "The Unbeliever" was not written by the person

> who wrote Chapter 10. On the other hand, every paragraph of Chapter

> 10 contains phrases found in other chapters of the basic text. As

> just one example, out of dozens I could give, pages 143-44 of

Chapter

> 10 talk about the "subject matter" of this book. "It contains full

> suggestions by which the employee may solve his problem." Compare

143-

> 44 with the similar language found on page 45 of the earlier

Chapter

> 4, about the "main object" of the book ["to find a Power...which

will

> solve your problem"]. I'd be happy to go over Chapter 10 with you,

> line by line, and point out where phrases from Chapter 10 are used

> identically, elsewhere in the Big Book. The person who wrote

Chapter

> 10 borrowed heavily from the other ten chapters of the Big Book.

> It defies belief that Hank wrote Chapter 10 in isolation. If Hank

did

> in fact compose Chapter 10, he was a liberal plagiarist who copied

> Bill Wilson's exact language and writing style. Hank would have

also

> completely changed his writing style and language in a six month

> period,and discarded all his ideas from his own story. The better

> view is that all eleven chapters of the Big Book were drafted by

the

> same person. They were not written at all by the person who

> authored "The Unbeliever".

> I have no doubt that Hank claimed in Hank's correspondence that

Hank

> authored Chapter 10. In a similar vein, Ebby Thatcher loved to

refer

> to himself as a "founder" of AA. I have no doubt that Hank's one-

> time brother-in law, Clarence S., gave Hank credit for Chapter 10.

I

> have no doubt that Hank's ideas made their way into Chapter 10.

Hank

> was a former Standard Oil executive, who shared a small office in

> Newark with Bill Wilson and Ruth Hock. Bill Wilson composed

Chapters

> 1 through 11, no doubt running ideas past Hank in their office

every

> day. Bill Wilson gave Hank credit for Chapter 10, even though Bill

> had done the writing.

> In summary, it should be undisputed that Bill Wilson was the author

> [the "principal" author, if you prefer] of Chapters 1 through 11.

> There is nothing in Hank's first edition story to suggest that Hank

> composed Chapter 10. Although Bill had some character defects,

> hugging credit was not one of them. Bill publically praised William

> James, Sam Shoemaker and Ebby Thatcher as "founders" of AA. It

should

> not be surprising that Bill would be equally modest in allowing

Hank

> to take credit for Chapter 10.

> love+service

> john lee

> pittsburgh

>

>

> > If one just takes a written story published in the Big

> > Book as the only example of Hank's writing style it is

> > not doing diligent service to historical research.

> > There are several letters written by Hank and other

> > documents, including oral histories which give

> > authorship of that chapter (Employers) to Hank. I wish

> > I had a tape recorder at the time but Ruth told me

> > Hank was the author when I asked her at Stepping

> > Stones. Merton's research, my conversations with Ruth,

> > Clarence and others as well as my reading several

> > letters and other documents written by Hank lead me to

> > believe Hank was the author.

> >

> >

> >

> > --- johnlawlee <johnlawlee@> wrote:

> >

> > > --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > > > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> > > Of Charlene C.

> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM

> > > > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> > > > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking

> > > >

> > > > it would be my guess that employers are more

> > > inclined to think in

> > > > intellectual terms than medical or spiritual.

> > > especially in that

> > > > time, when alcoholism was considered more of a

> > > moral dilema than a

> > > > spiritual mallody or terminal illness.

> > > >

> > > > just a thought.

> > > > C. Cook

> > > >

> > > > Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of

> > >

> > > "To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always

> > > found that hard

> > > to believe, based on the contrast between the

> > > divergent styles of

> > > Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition.

> > > Hank's story, "The

> > > Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled

> > > with

> > > elipses,exclamations, etc. I've always suspected

> > > that Bill Wilson did

> > > the actual writing of Chapter 10, although Hank

> > > supplied many of the

> > > ideas for Chapter 10. Bill, Hank and Ruth Hock

> > > shared a small office

> > > in Newark when they put together the Big Book. I

> > > don't see any

> > > language in Hank's story which is similar to the

> > > content or style of

> > > Chapter 10. Bill was very generous in giving credit

> > > for the

> > > contributions of others; for instance, Bill referred

> > > to William James

> > > as a "founder" of AA, even though Professor James

> > > had been dead for

> > > decades when AA was founded.

> > > The authors of Chapter 10 are laying out a big order

> > > for employers.

> > > They're asking employers to read the Big Book and

> > > use it to "12 step"

> > > their employees. I don't see any information in

> > > Chapter 10 which is

> > > inconsistent with the first five chapters. The

> > > intended audience was

> > > different. It's not a different message.

> > > john lee

> > > member

> > > pittsburgh

> > > > trixiebellaa <hayntra@> wrote:

> > > > hi history lovers,

> > > >

> > > > Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be

> > > appreciated that he has

> > > > been

> > > > a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by

> > > the action of

> > > alcohol

> > > >

> > > > on his brain?"

> > > >

> > > > One of our members asked why would Bill put such

> > > an important piece

> > > of

> > > >

> > > > information in the chapter to employers,instead of

> > > perhaps one of

> > > the

> > > > chapters at the beginning of the book.

> > > >

> > > > Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks from Tracy

> > > > The Barking Big Book Study Group

> > > > England

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > SPONSORED LINKS

> > > > Addiction recovery program Recovery from

> > > addiction

> > > > Addiction recovery center Christian addiction

> > > recovery

> > > > Alcoholics anonymous

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

> > > >

> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email

> > > to:

> > > > AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> > > >

> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the

> > > Yahoo! Terms of

> > > > Service.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------------

> > > > Yahoo! Mail

> > > > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying

> > > attachments.

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>


0 -1 0 0
3289 Mitchell K.
Re: Re: authorship of Chapter 10/Openmindedness authorship of Chapter 10/Openmindedness 3/24/2006 10:47:00 PM


A conference approved Forward from Bill Wilson in

1967 confirms that Bill wrote the text of the Big

Book....



That settles it! All historical research means

nothing. Documents mean nothing. Oral histories mean

nothing. All of the work done by historians,

researchers, archivists, librarians etc are for

nothing.



An approval by a so-called conference of expert AA

historians and archivists after extensive review of

the documents confirmed that Bill alone wrote the text

of the Big Book. The fact that Bill himself wrote that

he was more of a referee than author counts for

nothing. The fact that the manuscript chapters were

reviewed, re-written and debated by virtually all the

founding members means nothing. Bill, in a vacuum

wrote the Big Book by himself.



The subject of openmindedness mixed with the myopic

prejudiced views expressed denegrates this group and

its value in the study and bringing forth of factual

AA history vs so-called conference approved sanitized

versions.



If I remember correctly....didn't some sort of

conference approval prove beyond a shadow of a doubt

that the world was flat?


0 -1 0 0
3290 James Blair
Authorship of "To Employers" Authorship of "To Employers" 3/24/2006 6:20:00 PM


The questioning of the authorship of "To Employers" sent me to reread my copy of

Lois Remenbers.



On page 114 Lois states "Therefore I had expected Bill to ask me to write the

chapter "To Wives" and perhaps the following one, "The Family Afterward." When I

shyly suggested this, he said no; he thought the book, except for the stories,

should all be written in the same style. I have never known why he didn't want

me to write about the wives, and it hurt me at first; but our lives were so full

that I didn't have time to think about it much."



If Bill W. has assigned the writing of "To Employers" to Hank P., he could not

have used writing style as a reason to not allow Lois to write a chapter or

chapters and Lois would have noted this in her history book.



Maybe we have a case of something being repeated often enough that it becomes

the truth, sort of.



Cheers

Jim





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3291 george cleveland
Circle and triangle on poker chips in "The Sting" Circle and triangle on poker chips in "The Sting" 3/24/2006 10:10:00 PM


Hi there,



I have seen these on eBay several times.



The circle and triangle are certainly not unique. Geometrically, they fit well

and one can find them in many places. I saw the symbol on a gas station fill

cover the other day. And the state where I live actually uses it for the

Alcoholic Beverage Commission. So when you go to a State Liquor Store, you see

the AA logo.



However I am not sure of the exact reason or origin for the appearance on poker

chips.



George Cleveland





Jari Kokkinen <jarikokkinen@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Hi everyone!



must tell you about an incident that relates to poker chips. About a year ago

I saw

the film "Sting" and in it the players in a poker game used chips that had

the symbols

of AA - the circle inside the triangle on their reverse side. I wonder if

anybody would have any comments clarifying that coincidence or would just have

noticed the same thing?



In Sobriety,



Jari - an AA from Finland


0 -1 0 0
3292 Jeffrey Johnson
Chapter 10: Bill or Hank? Chapter 10: Bill or Hank? 3/25/2006 4:18:00 PM


Messages from Jeffrey Johnson, Rick Tompkins, rriley9945, Arthur Sheehan, John

Lee, and Edgar C.

______________________________



FROM: Jeffrey Johnson <jeffrey_h_johnson@yahoo.com>

(jeffrey_h_johnson at yahoo.com)



While not wanting to sound overly repetitive relative to statements made by

other posters, it appears to me that there is a very subtle yet critical issue

which is being overwhelmed with strong rhetoric and exaggerated counter claims

regarding the ‘validity’ of differing research methodologies. As the

antagonists in this ‘argument’ become more entrenched in their varying

postulations, the key historical facts are becoming obscured, and to some degree

ignored.



First and foremost, as a long time member of this group, it is my OPINION that

one of the critical customs of this group is being ignored by certain

participants in this debate – in absence of concrete, IRREFUTABLE facts, we can

agree to disagree. Clearly, neither ‘side’ in this discussion has produced any

irrefutable “articles of fact” which definitively settle this controversy. The

use of ‘text comparison’ is no more (or less) valid than citing one source (Pass

It On), since neither methodology / source fully or with any level of reliable

accuracy ends the debate.



In my way of thinking there is ample evidence to support a middle ‘ground’

position on this topic. Bill Wilson stated in a talk he delivered in 1954 in

Fort Worth, TX that he was the “author…” of the Big Book. However, in this same

talk - and in support of Arthur’s previous statements - Bill goes on to provide

a much more detailed account of how the Big Book was written. “So, the

preparation started and some more chapters were done and we went into AA in New

York with these chapters in the rough. It wasn’t like chicken-in-the-rough; the

boys didn’t eat those chapters up at all. I suddenly discovered that I was in

this terrific whirlpool of arguments. I was just the umpire…So, we fought, bled

and died our way through one chapter after another. We sent them out to Akron

and they were peddled around and there were terrific hassles about what should

go into this book and what should not.” Therefore, given Bill’s comments, the

claims made by each side regarding some type of

definitive evidence that Hank did or did not ‘author’ Chapter 10 are

unsubstantiated by any relevant fact.



While not wanting to sound overly pedantic, another key issue appears to be

the definition of ‘authorship’, especially as Bill Wilson would have understood

it. Inasmuch as the term author is used synonymously with writer today, Bill

may have understood ‘author’ to have a different connotation; when used as a

verb, Bill may have understood the following connotation: To assume

responsibility for the content of a published text.



Moreover, from the reflections Ruth Hock wrote in 1959 (at Bill’s request),

there is some support for the postulation that Bill may have understood the

connotation of authorship as previously defined. “So far as I know there was

never any doubt that you were the one to write it, Bill, and I know that you

spent endless hours discussing its general form with everyone who would listen

or offer an idea - especially with Doc Smith , Fitz and Hank. As soon as you

began to feel you had at least a majority agreement you began to arrive at the

office with those yellow scratch pad sheets I came to know so well. All you

generally had on those yellow sheets were a few notes to guide you on a whole

chapter! My understanding was that those notes were the result of long thought

on your part after hours of discussion pro and con with everyone who might be

interested.” (Ruth Hock’s Recollections, Nov. 10, 1959, p. 4)



Indeed, it seems to stretch credibility to the extreme, given Bill & Ruth’s

VERY definitive statements, to state unequivocally that Hank had no part in

writing Chapter 10, nor would it be supportable to say he was the primary writer

either. All available and historically accurate evidence indicates that Bill

was responsible for the overall content and context of the Big Book, but that

numerous individuals influenced different sections and / or information which

was included (and excluded) from the book.



The a priori result, based on all relevant facts, is that Bill developed a

general outline of each chapter then dictated the actual wording to Ruth. Then

a VERY lengthy review process occurred wherein numerous individuals provided

critical feedback, which at times resulted in material alterations to Bill’s

original intent and wording. Clearly Hank was involved in, and was a PRIMARY

source of feedback regarding the development of the entire book, not just

chapter 10. Given Hank’s physical proximity to Bill during this period – they

were confined to a very small workspace while Ruth was taking dictation – an

intuitively appealing conclusion is that Hank had substantial influence on

Chapter 10 as a result of his professional background and experience.



In summary, I conclude that all relevant historical evidence supports the

conclusion that Bill was the primary ‘author’ of the Big Book. However, to

conclude from this evidence that Hank was NOT influential in the development of

the ideas and / or wording included in Chapter 10 by stating that “The claim

that Hank Parkhurst authored Chapter 10 of the Big Book is an AA myth. The myth

was initiated by the boastings of Hank, and perpetuated by the anti-Bill Wilson

faction of AA” is nothing more than speculation and personal opinion. Ample

evidence indicates that many key individuals, including Dr. Bob, Hank and

Fizthugh Mayo had substantial influence on the content and information included

in the book. However, barring new evidence, it CANNOT be stated irrefutable

whether or not Hank was the PRIMARY source / WRITER for the ideas and

information included in Chapter 10.



Yours in service,



Jeff J



______________________________



FROM: "ricktompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>

(ricktompkins at comcast.net)



That settles it! Now I need to read the Advisory Actions

booklet again to see self-protection in action.

Intellectual property-type lawsuits went on in that

decade, too, so why shouldn't the Conference vote that

the Text section be completely attributed to

Bill? Off the records, Bill would honestly defer to

others as literary sources.



(BTW, sorry about the top-posting here, group...)



Thank you for your post, Mitch, your satire makes us

take our own stock as AA historians.



From what I've come to understand, Parkhurst created

the outline for the Big Book, brought the editors on

board, fine-tuned a great deal of the text, and was

an integral part of the NYC+Akron teams that roundtabled

the final text that was published in February 1939.

"The Unbeliever" reads like scenes in the movie "The

Lost Weekend" and could have been Hank's last foray

into creative writing. If Wilson said Parkhurst wrote

"To Employers" let's take him at his word! Parkhurst was

once an employer's Administrator, remember...



I truly believe that Wilson did not write our Twelve

Steps, he just wrote them down after a spell of astounding serendipity: a mix of

Oxford Grouper principles, Dale

Carnegie courses, and the fledgling Alcoholic Squads'

attempt to close every loophole that a conniving drunk

could try to sneak through. The collective vision of

our pioneers found a great deal of its conduit with

Bill's activity of writing it all down. To me, that vision,

expanded and separated from Oxford Movement principles, set

about to close all loopholes that brought recovery to

drunks in their disease.



The principles of AA are repeated innumerable times and many different ways

throughout our Big Book, just think of the

simple example 'wrongs, defects of character, shortcomings.'

Same idea, different sentences.



Our AA authorship appears to be subject to myth until proven otherwise, while

our AA principles are just as much derivative.

Bill was never a Pulitzer-Prize-grade writer, and many

editors, right down to the linotype operator at Cornwall

Press, are facts of our AA history. Tom Powers is no longer

alive to reaffirm the fact that Bill needed much assistance

in his writing, and Nell Wing also attested to that reality.



When speaking of writing the history of my home Area 20,

I would always defer to the panels who reviewed my effort

and I still share that when it came together, the facts

drove it to the point where it just about wrote itself!

To this day, some believe it was written by a committee

and that perspective continues to sit well with me.



Love and serenity to all here,

Rick, Illinois

______________________________



FROM: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com)



An interesting bit of information from Bill W is in "AA Comes of Age"

(pgs 165-166). Bill writes:



"... But as the book-naming discussion went on, I began to have

certain doubts and temptations. From the start the title "The Way Out"

was popular. If we gave the book this name, then I could add my

signature, 'By Bill W.'! After all why shouldn't an author sign his

book? I began to forget that this was everybody's book and that I had

been mostly the umpire of the discussions that had created it ..."



Also, portions of "To Employers" are written in the style of first

person narrative and in the context of the narrator being an employer.

The profile narrated does fit Hank but not Bill.



Cheers

Arthur

______________________________



FROM: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)



Response to James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>



Jim,



Good point about the "writing style" pretext used by Bill.

I'd forgotten that exchange with Lois. As you know, the

Alanon preamble tracks the language of "To Wives".



How about the royalties issue, also? If Hank had actually

written part of the Big Book, he would have been legally

entitled to royalties, irrespective of Hank tendering his

Works Publishing shares to Bill for a redundant $200

payment.



Hank didn't pursue his royalties claim because it was

pure fiction.



Bill knew that. Hank even knew it, in his sober moments.

Bill worked out a deal with the Trustees, whereby Bill

would get royalty payments for the Big Book. Bob wasn't

an author of the Big Book but Bill still tried to get

royalty payments for Bob. If Hank's claim to authorship

had had the slightest validity, Hank would have been

awarded royalties for the Big Book.



That's why overall payments to Bill became such a hot

issue in Cleveland, where Bill was confronted with

Clarence's charges that Bill was making a fortune on

AA. Hank had gone crying the blues to Clarence about

the Big Book royalties. If Hank had kept his cool,

he would have been awarded Big Book royalties. Bill

was always deferential to Hank, who had been Bill's

business partner and first successful pigeon in NYC.



Ruth Hock wrote a long 1955 letter to Bill Wilson,

detailing the writing of the Big Book. Nowhere in that

long letter does Ruth suggest that Hank wrote Chapter

10 of the Big Book.



You're absolutely correct. These AA fables keep getting

repeated for decades, and eventually assume the truth.

Nobody bothers to check the original documents, such as

the AMA Convention Program, Spencer's Principles of

Biology, or James' Varieties of Religious Experience.

If anyone would take the time to read "The Unbeliever",

they would be convinced that Hank didn't concurrently

write "To Employers". Hank couldn't write a lucid

paragraph about alcoholism.

john lee

pittsburgh

______________________________



FROM: edgarc@aol.com

(edgarc at aol.com)



Response to James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>



Maybe we have a case of something being repeated often

enough that it becomes the truth, sort of.



Cheers

Jim



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Well said, Jim. That's the reason why we all know

what space aliens look like. I even have salt and

pepper shakers in their likeness.



As to why Bill W wrote To Wives, instead of letting

Lois do it as she asked, it's hard to imagine her

using the patronizing, forgiving tone of the

chapter, especially such sentences as, "The first

principle of success is that you should never be angry..." and "Patience and

good temper are most necessary.".

I think you can make a case for it being an oblique

way for Bill to say to Lois, "Get off my case, Lois..."



Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla

______________________________



FROM: rriley9945@aol.com

(rriley9945 at aol.com)



If I remember correctly....didn't some sort of

conference approval prove beyond a shadow of a doubt

that the world was flat?



Er--The world isn't flat?????

______________________________


0 -1 0 0
3293 Doug B.
Poker chips and AA symbols Poker chips and AA symbols 3/25/2006 6:11:00 PM


Messages from Doug B., Kimball, and M. Eaton

______________________________



FROM: "Doug B." <dougb@aahistory.com>

(dougb at aahistory.com)



Jari,



I have lots of the circle/triangle chips that you mention.

They are from about 1910 per a poker chip dealer I spoke to.



The reason there are so many symbols and styles of the old

clay chips is because there are were so many establishments

that wanted chips that could be their own style and denomination.



Todays poker chip manufacturing can use any graphic they

want to so there are even more variations available and

they don't have to use the antiquated symbols anymore.



Doug B.

______________________________



From: "Kimball" <rowek@softcom.net>

(rowek at softcom.net)



I know that poker chip were used as AA tokens, or at

least in Germany. When I was there they had a chip

system based on the plain poker chip (no circle, no

triangle):



BEGINNER - WHITE



The first poker chip was called the surrender chip.

It was white and was given to all new comers. The

new comer was told that "White is the International

color for SURRENDER. Now would be a good time to

surrender yourself and place your care in the hands

of God. However, should you return to drinking it may

also represent the color of the sheet that will place

over your cold dead body." Often we had to order

rolls of "just white" poker chips.



ONE MONTH - RED



The second chip was red and given at the one month

period. People with one month were told that "Red

is the international color for STOP. Now would be a

good time to stop your stinking thinking, stop

your old behaviors, stop playing with your old

friends. However, should you return to drinking,

then the color red could represent the color of

your front windshield as you're ejected from the

car."



THREE MONTHS - GREEN



The third chip was green and given at the three

month period (we had no two month chip). People

with three months were told that "Green is the

international color for GO. Now would be a good

time for you to go to more meetings, go read

your Big Book, go and talk to a sponsor, or go

and help another. However, should you return to

drinking, then the color green could represent

the color of your liver during autopsy."



SIX MONTHS - BLUE



The fourth chip was blue and given at the six

month period. People with six months were told

that "Blue is the international color for PEACE.

By now, you've been off the sauce long enough

for the 'fog' to lift, the steps have begun to

change you, and you may be at last experiencing

moments of serenity. However, should you return

to drinking the color blue could represent the

emotions felt by family and loved ones who knew

that behind the booze was a fine human being."



NINE MONTHS - YELLOW



The fifth and the last poker chip was yellow and

was given at nine months of sobriety. People with

nine months were told that "Yellow is the

international color for CAUTION. By now you

know a lot about AA and staying sober. In

someways, you may actually know enough to be

dangerous. This is a time to exercise extreme

caution in what you do and think, stay close

to the fellowship and pray. However, should you

return to drinking, then the color yellow could

represent the color of your jaundiced eyes the

mortician preps you for viewing."

______________________________



FROM: "M.Eaton" <meaton1287@rogers.com>

(meaton1287 at rogers.com)



I was watching a tv episode one day and it was

set in a classroom. On the blackboard in the

background was "Homework - Chapter 5 -

How It Works". It is always possible that

one of our legion of members was sending

a "hello" message.



Just a theory - Murray Eaton


0 -1 0 0
3294 johnlawlee
Chapter 10: Bill or Hank? Another clue... Chapter 10: Bill or Hank? Another clue... 3/26/2006 2:58:00 PM


AA History Lovers:

I took another look at the December 1938 Big Book "Prospectus"

developed by Hank and Bill. The first part sounds like Bill Wilson,

the second half, Hank P. The non-alcoholic Trustees weren't keen

on financing a basic text, reasoning that Hank and Bill had no

experience in publishing. Tell a drunk he can't do something, and

what happens? Hank and Bill made of tour of publishing houses, to

get background and troll for an advance. Hank and Bill were both

autodidacts [self-taught]. They were innovative guys. A third of the

Works Publishing stock was given to Bill as author and a third

to Hank as business manager. Hank tried to hawk the remaining third

at meetings, with very limited success. Ruth apparently got shares,

in lieu of some of her wages. It should not be surprising that the

AA members were unenthusiastic about buying stock in a book that

hadn't been written. Many of these same members had already been

ruined financially by the stock market collapse of 1929.

There is an important clue about Chapter 10's authorship in the

December 1938 Prospectus. The last line of the page entitled "The

Present Program" indicates that "ten chapters [of One Hundred Men]

have now been written." The missing chapter was either Chapter 5 or

Chapter 10. Everyone agrees that Chapters 1 and 2 were the first

ones finished, and the drafts of those chapters were used to try to

coax an advance from publishers. Bill's talks indicate that the last

Chapter he finished was Chapter 5, How It Works. The Prospectus does

not indicate the name or subject matter of the missing chapter. Can

anyone in this forum identify the month Bill wrote up the 12 steps?

If Bill's quick writeup of the 12 steps on his bed occurred prior to

December 1938, then it is probable that Chapter 10 was the missing

chapter.

love+tolerance

john lee


0 -1 0 0
3295 George Cleveland
Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? 3/27/2006 9:52:00 PM


Hi there,



I am blessed with a great collection of recordings of Bill Wilson.

Listening to the spoken words of Bill and other long-timers (in some

cases before they were long-timers) is a wonderful resource. Thanks to

our technology these days, we can hear these people breathing in our

ears. And the message of 50 years ago is the same as today.



I have been wandering through Google and all the links that Glenn and

others have provided. Can someone direct me to where I might find

downloads of Lois' talks? Are there recordings of Anne Smith?





Thanks for any help you can provide.



George Cleveland


0 -1 0 0
3296 Dean C
Working the Steps/Program Working the Steps/Program 3/28/2006 2:10:00 PM


I've searched the text in the front part of the book ("Alcoholics

Anonymous") and don't find the phrasing "working the Steps" or "work the

Steps" or "work the program" anywhere.



What I find is "the steps we took," "practice these principles," "accept and

practice spiritual principles," "apply spiritual principles," "spiritual

answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed," "follow

our program," "following the program ," "give themselves to this simple

program," "let up on the spiritual program of action," "a practical program

of action," "go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of recovery,"

"Let the alcoholic continue his program," "he may go for the program at

once," "try our program," "falling down on his spiritual program," "the wife

who adopts a sane spiritual program, making a better practical use of it,"

and so on.



The word "work" is used to convey a result, as in "It worked!" Or, it's an

action based on what we've learned, as in "if an alcoholic failed to perfect

and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others.

Or "a design for living that works in rough going." Or "we try to put

spiritual principles to work in every department of our lives." (And so on.)



To me, "working the Steps" has a connotation far different from what's in

the book. It sounds difficut, unattractive, for one thing. And "work the

program" sounds, to me, well, conniving, as in "work the system," or like

what a comedian or salesperson or politician might do: "work the crowd,"

"work the room."



Perhaps in other geographical areas, "work the Steps" isn't heard. It's

pretty much all that is heard here.



Does anyone know when these "work" phrases crept into our AA vocabulary? (Or

where it appears in Conference-approved literature?)



Thanks!



-- Dean Collins

Monterey Peninsula, California


0 -1 0 0
3297 edgarc@aol.com
Author of "It Might Have Been Worse" Author of "It Might Have Been Worse" 3/30/2006 7:56:00 AM


We are working thru all the stories in our bb & step

weekly meeting. The West Baltimore AA site has been

most helpful in providing information about the

authors, but not all of them.



Next week, we read It Might Have Been Worse. West

Baltimore gives us Chet Rude as the author, but

little more beyond what is in the story. Anyone

have more information I can bring to the meeting? Or

another source for the authors of those stories?



Thanks in advance

Edgar C, Sarasota, FL


0 -1 0 0
3298 Cindy Miller
Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? 3/29/2006 8:20:00 PM


From Cindy Miller, Robert Stonebraker, Joe Adams, and K D Dew

______________________________



FROM: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



Greetings!



In answer to your question: I don't know if there

are any recordings of Anne Smith--but I do have

at least one recording ("Classic Talks"-Dicobe Tapes)

of Lois in my vast Al-Anon collection! ;-)



-cm

______________________________



FROM: "Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)



George,



The Akron Intergroup offers an album with five

historical CDs, one of these is titled: "A Message

To Bill And Lois." At this point Ann Smith, Dr.

Bob, Smitty and his wife are making a recording

to be delivered to Bill and Lois Wilson on a then

new fangled recording device. Each of them speak

only a few sentences but it is a charming recording.

Also, on this CD is two of Dr. Bob's talks:

(1) at Detroit in 1948 and (2) at Cleveland in 1950.



Write to:



Akron AA Audio Archives

775 North Main Street

Akron, OH 44310



Email www.akronaa.org/archives



Bob S.

______________________________



FROM: Joe Adams <sober_in_nc@yahoo.com>

(sober_in_nc at yahoo.com)



I, too, love to hear the voice that gave use the

words, and I download many many many free files in MP3

format from http://www.xa-speakers.org, including

historic Bill, Bob, Lois and other key speakers.



Another good library to hear things online in

real-audio format from



http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm.



I am not aware of any recordings by Anne ... and will

be watching the list to see if anyone has better

information.

______________________________



FROM: "K D Dew" <kddew@bardstowncable.net>

(kddew at bardstowncable.net)



I know of one free recording try this link:



http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm



Down the page about 3/4 of the way there is

a link to "Lois W." it is Lois Wilson.



Here's another link:



http://amottapes.com/



but they charge



Kevin


0 -1 0 0
3299 emily baker
Re: Working the Steps/Program Working the Steps/Program 3/29/2006 7:44:00 PM


From Emily Baker, Lynne, Kimball, Jaime Maliachi,

Jon Markle, John Lee, Anders Byström, and K D Dew

______________________________



From: "emily baker" <EBAKER@bak.rr.com>

(EBAKER at bak.rr.com)



Or,

Participate in the discipline of the steps.

______________________________



From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com

(Gotogo2002L at aol.com)



faith without works.........is dead?

It is an action word........how does

one improve his spiritual life, without

thoroughly following the steps as laid

out in the big book.



half measures avail us

nothing......................



LOL Lynne

______________________________



From: "Kimball" <rowek@softcom.net>

(rowek at softcom.net)



LMAO



took

practice

accept

apply

action

follow

following

give themselves

go through with

go for

try

falling down

adopts

practical use



If you can't see work here, you're

not looking!

______________________________



From: "Jaime F. Maliachi P."

<jmaliachi@megatopexercise.com>

(jmaliachi at megatopexercise.com)



Dear Dean: good day and 24 hours of sobriety

to you.



My name is Jim Maliachi, and I am alcoholic

anonymous since 12 years. You are right in one

sense about your point of view. But I remember

some expressions of Dr. Bob & good Veterans,

that book include "if your man drink, he help

you to show how do not work the program, if he

does not drink he help you too because he show

you how it work..." May be in Akron area was the

site where it start to be the phrases with

"work".



In Mexico City we used to say "practice" the

program, and "work" the defects of character.

BUT work the steps means (to me), to practice

them. There are not difference between those w

ords, at least, it just is important one thing:

How I change my way to be, to think and to live.



Make it simple.



Thanks a lot for your tolerance.

Jimbo.



Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote.

servidor y amigo.

______________________________



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>

(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)



I realize that in some areas, the word "work" has

some awful and negative connotations. I think

that's just a matter of attitude and not necessarily

scientific . . . And that aversion appears to me

to come directly out of treatment clinics where

in groups, the word "work" is often suppressed and

substituted with "suggestions", or similar.



My personal opinion (not fact) is, that's a wimpy

excuse for getting someone else to do the work for

the alcoholic. But, that's just my personal opinion

and not based on any sort of fact, except my own

experience! <GRIN> My sponsor told it to me this

way, "Jon, if you work it, it's yours, you own it.

If I work it, it's mine and I'll take it with me

when I go."



Somehow that made sense to me . . . So, I "work

it"! LOL



The one phrase that immediately comes to my mind

is page 88, (Third Ed), "It works--it really does.

We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God

discipline us in the simple way we have just

outlined. But this is not all.



There is action and more action. 'Faith without

works is dead.' The next chapter is entirely

devoted to Step Twelve."



I'm not sure this is what you are looking for,

though. But, it seems clear to me, at least,

that "working" is a semantic expression of the

process that involves, learning, practicing and

putting to use the skills necessary to enable

the sufferer to have the desire to drink

permanently removed, become not only sober, to

recover, but also to remain sober, recovered

and usefully whole.



But, that's just my take on it . . .



Jon Markle

Raleigh

______________________________



From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)



Dean:



We hear "working the program" constantly in

Pittsburgh. It's street slang, oily politician

rhetoric. Similar to "working the crowd" or

"working the room". Very manipulative language.



The only place I've seen "working the steps"

in the basic literature is ONE reference in 12&12,

near the beginning of the chapter on step 10.

12&12 basically says that as we worked the first

nine steps, we now begin to LIVE them. I've long

believed that the better view is that the steps

"work" us, they transform us, irrespective of our

original motives.



The 10th step promises in the Big Book seem to bear

that out ["it happens automatically..."].



john lee

______________________________



From: anders byström <serenityodaat@yahoo.se>

(serenityodaat at yahoo.se)



Hiya Dean!



I did a very quick and rough word count of the basic

text (first eleven chapters and doc's opinion) and

found some 60 references. At least 75% of them was in

the term "action" or "labour", simillair to the

examples below:



"Particularly was it imperative to work with others

as he had worked with me. Faith without works was

dead, he said" - p. 24



"...He is the Principal, we are His agent..."

"...We had a new Employer. Being all powerful, He

provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and

performed His work well..." - p.75



"But this is not all. There is action and more action.

'Faith without works is dead.' The next chapter is

entirely devoted to step twelve." - p. 100



"WORKING WITH OTHERS

PRACTICAL experience shows that nothing will so much

insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with

other alcoholics. It works when other activities

fail." - p. 101

______________________________



From: "K D Dew" <kddew@bardstowncable.net>

(kddew at bardstowncable.net)



I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert, of

course, but it was explained to me that the term

"working the steps" comes from the phrase in the

9th step promises..."they will always come true

if we work for them."



http://www.nokama.com/bigbook/



The above link is to a searchable website of the

big book. There are 101 references to the word

"work." One might derive "working the steps"

from some of the sentences in the BB in which

the word work is used.



Kevin


0 -1 0 0
3300 chesbayman56
Significant April Dates in A.A. History Significant April Dates in A.A. History 4/4/2006 1:43:00 PM


April

April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &

tell them of obsession & allergy.

April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best

Friend" by Jack Alexander.

April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest

desire to stop drinking".

April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service

Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.

April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.

April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big

Book.

April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used

to open AA meetings in Texas.

April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.

April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.

April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.

April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill

W's "spiritual sponsor."

April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking

for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack

Alexander.

April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the

office Bill and Hank P shared.

April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for

A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)

April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones

in New Bedford.

April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-

hitter in baseball history since 1909.

April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the

one millionth copy of the Big Book.

April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was

formed. First 'mail order' group.

April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was

formed in Seattle.

April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock

to the Alcoholic Foundation.

April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book

royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.

April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.

April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.

April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.

April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.

April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.

April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation

was broadcast on ABC TV.


0 -1 0 0
3301 Mel Barger
Resentment quote In Big Book Story Resentment quote In Big Book Story 4/2/2006 8:58:00 AM


Hi Friends:

I would like to know the exact source of a wonderful quotation on dealing with

resentment that appears in "Freedom From Bondage," a personal story in the Big

Book. The personal story was first used in the 2nd edition, published in 1955,

and has been retained in the 3rd and 2nd editions, which indicates that the

editors felt it was of superior quality.

Here's the quotation, which can be found on p. 552 of the 4th (latest)

edition. The author said she found it in a magazine article and that it was

about getting rid of resentment. It was by a prominent clergyman

He said, in effect: If you have a resentment you want to be free of, if you

will pray for the person or the thing that you resent, you will be free. If you

will ask in prayer for everything you want for yourself to be given to them, you

will be free. Ask for their health, their prosperity, their happiness, and you

will be free. Even when you don't really want it for them and your prayers are

only words and you don't mean it, go ahead and do it anyway. Do it every day

for two weeks, and you will find you have come to mean it and to want it for

them, and you will realize that where you used to feel bitterness and resentment

and hatred, you now feel compassionate understanding and love."

The author went on to say it worked for her then and worked for her since and

worked every time she was willing to work it.

Who was the prominent clergyman who authored this quotation? My guess is

that it was Norman Vincent Peale, who became very prominent with his 1952

publication of that blockbuster, "The Power of Positive Thinking." He was a

good friend of AA and even devoted a large part of one chapter in that book to

AA. But does anyone know where the above quotation appeared? It had to be

before 1955, because that's when it first appeared in the Big Book. It was in a

magazine with the word "resentment" on the cover, as this is what caught the Big

Book writer's attention. It might have been in Guideposts magazine and slightly

different from the quotation shown above, as the author used "in effect" in

presenting it.

It's a great quotation, by the way, and ought to be put on a card and passed

around at meetings, especially when resentment is the topic. Come to think of

it, I think I'll do that for my group her in Toledo and any of the History

Lovers could easily download it from this message and circulate it in their own

groups.

LOL to All,

Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio



~~~~~~~~

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3302 Mike Custer
Jack H. (sob. 1958) passed away... Jack H. (sob. 1958) passed away... 4/3/2006 7:16:00 PM


Sad to report that Jack Holt passed away.

Jack's sobriety date was March 6, 1958.

48 years of sobriety. There is a memorial

site with information about his service here



<http://www.soberrun.com/jh1.htm>


0 -1 0 0
3303 Phillip Waters
RE: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? 4/2/2006 8:52:00 PM


I have several talks by Lois in MP3 format.



Please feel free to contact me off list.



Phillip Waters

____________________________________



My e-mail address is:



<muddy@bham.rr.com>



(muddy at bham.rr.com)


0 -1 0 0
3304 Joe Adams
Wombley''s Clapboard Factory? Wombley''s Clapboard Factory? 4/3/2006 12:54:00 AM


Can ANYONE give me some background of the big

explosion of Wombley's Clapboard Factory?



It's April and my home group - and many of the groups

around here - will be studying Tradition 4 again.

Last year I went to six meetings in a row that were all

the same and no one has any idea of the significance

of the reference.



Not that it is a major point of recovery, but it IS in

the books and we DO get that question every single

time.



Anybody? (and smile, it's not all that grim)

______________________________



FROM THE MODERATOR (Glenn Chesnut)



The "day the boiler burst in Wombley's

Clapboard Factory" is referred to in

Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions pp. 147-149.



(This is also where we find Rule No. 62,

"Don't take yourself too damn seriously.")



We have a couple of past messages which talked

about this, which I give immediately below

(Messages 2324 and 1610). Does anyone in the

AAHistoryLovers have any additional information?

______________________________



Message 2324 from "Mark Morse"

<markm@eauclaire.lib.wi.us>

(markm at eauclaire.lib.wi.us)



Wombley's clapboard factory



Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard

Factory," there was an Edgar Wombley, Chemist,

in Chittenden County, Vermont, before the turn of

the century. The Mad River Valley, which housed

such early clapboard mills as that of the Ward

family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran

through Chittenden county.

______________________________



Message 1610 from Jim Blair

<jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs

the Wilson House in East Dorset and he claims

that the foundations of the clapboard factory

can still be seen.



Jim

______________________________



The full story, pp. 147-149 from the chapter

in the Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions on the

Fourth Tradition ("Each group should be autonomous

except in matters affecting other groups or A.A.

as a whole"). That section says:



Every group had the right to be wrong.



When A.A. was still young, lots of eager groups

were forming. In a town we'll call Middleton, a

real crackerjack had started up. The townspeople

were as hot as firecrackers about it. Stargazing,

the elders dreamed of innovations. They figured

the town needed a great big alcoholic center, a

kind of pilot plant A.A. groups could duplicate

everywhere. Beginning on the ground floor there

would be a club; in the second story they would

sober up drunks and hand them currency for the back

debts; the third deck would house and educational

project - quite controversial, of course. In

imagination the gleaming center was to go up

several stories more, but three would do for a

start. This would all take a lot of money - other

people's money. Believe it or not, wealthy

townsfolk bought the idea.



There were, though, a few conservative dissenters

among the alcoholics. They wrote the Foundation*,

A.A.'s headquarters in New York, wanting to know

about this sort of streamlining. They understood

that the elders, just to nail things down good,

were about to apply to the Foundation for a charter.

These few were disturbed and skeptical.



[*In 1954, the name of the Alcoholic Foundation, Inc.,

was changed to the General Service Board of Alcoholics

Anonymous, Inc., and the Foundation office is now

the General Service Office.]



Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a

super-promoter. By his eloquence he allayed all

fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it

could issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed

an A.A. group with medication and education had come

to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer,

the promoter organized three corporations and became

president of them all. Freshly painted, the new

center shone. The warmth of it all spread through

the town. Soon things began to hum. to insure

foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one rules

and regulations were adopted.



But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening.

Confusion replaced serenity. It was found that

some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if

they were alcoholics. The personality defects of

others could be cured maybe with a loan. Some were

club-minded, but it was just a question of taking

care of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming

applicants would go for all three floors. Some would

start at the top and come through to the bottom,

becoming club members; others started in the club,

pitched a binge, were hospitalized, then graduated

to education on the third floor. It was a beehive

of activity, all right, but unlike a beehive,

it was confusion compounded. An A.A. group,

as such, simply couldn't handle this sort of project.

All too late that was discovered. Then came

the inevitable explosion - something like that day

the boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory.

A chill chokedamp of fear and frustration fell

over the group.



When that lifted, a wonderful thing had happened.

The head promoter wrote the Foundation office.

He said he wished he'd paid attention to A.A.

experience. Then he did something else that was

to become an A.A. classic. It all went on a little

card about golf-score size. The cover read:

"Middleton Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was

unfolded, a single pungent sentence leaped to the

eye: "Don't take yourself too damn seriously."



Thus it was that under Tradition Four an A.A.

group had exercised its right to be wrong.

______________________________


0 -1 0 0
3305 Glenn Chesnut
V. C. Kitchen and the Oxford Group V. C. Kitchen and the Oxford Group 4/7/2006 5:12:00 PM


I have been doing research on one of the important

Oxford Group books, V. C. Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan,"

for a book which I am writing.



Other than what Kitchen says about himself in

his book, I have so far been able to find out

relatively little about his life. Some of it is

a bit frustrating. For example, although I have

been able to discover his date of birth (1891),

his date of death is unaccountably absent from

the normal librarians' reference sources.



Using Google to search the internet has shown

that Dick B. and myself are the only two people

who seem to have done much research on V. C.

Kitchen, unless I am possibly missing something

by inadvertence. The standard library reference

sources at the Indiana University library (like

the "Dictionary of National Biography" and so on)

make no mention of Kitchen anywhere.



What I have done below is to give all of the

information which I have in fact been able to

find, written up in the form in which I plan to

use it in the book. If any members of the

AAHistoryLovers can provide me with any

additional information about V. C. Kitchen's

life, I would greatly appreciate it.



Glenn Chesnut

South Bend, Indiana

______________________________



In 1934, Victor Constant Kitchen published a

book called "I Was a Pagan," [1] describing his

discovery of the Oxford Group and the way it

had changed his life. This is a short but very

useful work for understanding the Oxford Group

movement and the origins of many of the practices

found in Alcoholics Anonymous. One nevertheless

has to actually read Kitchen's little book.

Attempting to summarize the connections between

the Oxford Group and A.A. by giving short lists

of tenets and principles does not do adequate

justice to the linkage. Anyone however who has

a first hand acquaintance with A.A., who then

reads through "I Was a Pagan," will find page

after page where it sounds in uncanny fashion

almost like a description of Alcoholics Anonymous

in operation written by a long-time A.A. member.

The Oxford Group was not the same as A.A., but

we can see the connection between the two

movements in the style and the feeling, just

as much as in some of the ideas which A.A.

borrowed from the parent group.



V. C. Kitchen was a New York advertising man,

with an office at 42nd Street and Fifth Avenue.

He had a great interest in the Calvary Rescue

Mission for down-and-outers at 246 East 23rd Street

near Second Avenue, an operation which was

supported by Calvary Episcopal Church and run

by Oxford Group members.



Calvary Episcopal Church itself was located

several blocks away on Fourth Avenue (now Park

Avenue South) at 21st Street. The rector,

Father Samuel Shoemaker, had constructed an

eight-story parish house called Calvary House

next door to the church in 1928. Shoemaker was

a devoted follower of Frank Buchman, the founder

of the Oxford Group. Under Shoemaker's leadership,

Calvary House became the American headquarters

of the movement. Kitchen, with his writing skills,

wrote articles for the Rev. Shoemaker's publication,

the "Calvary Evangel." [2]



In November 1934, Ebby Thacher came to visit

Bill Wilson in his kitchen in the second floor

apartment at 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn, [3]

and told him about the Oxford Group and its

teachings. As a result Bill visited Calvary

Rescue Mission, began learning more about the

Oxford Group, and eventually (after his vision

of the divine light in Towns Hospital) began

attending the Oxford Group meetings at Calvary

House, where he got to know Father Shoemaker

himself. [4]



What makes Kitchen's book so important for

A.A. history, is that the eye-witness account

which he gives of the Oxford Group at work

describes the kind of practices which existed

in the New York city area at the exact time that

Bill Wilson first came into contact with the

movement. He and Bill W. were both members of

the same Oxford Group businessman's group in

New York City during the period around 1935-1936,

and became good friends. [5] The two of them were

close to the same age, so they could relate to

one another easily: in 1934 -- which was the year

that Ebby visited Bill in his apartment and told

him about the Oxford Group, and the year that

Kitchen's book "I Was a Pagan" was published --

Bill turned 39 years old and Kitchen was 43. [6]



There was also a connection between Kitchen

and Dr. Bob, although it was indirect. In 1933,

wealthy rubber baron Harvey Firestone, Sr.

(president of the Firestone Rubber and Tire

Company) brought sixty Oxford Group members to

Akron, Ohio, paying all their expenses, so that

they could get a group started in that city.

Kitchen was one of the members of that team, [7]

which meant that he was one of the founders of

the Oxford Group fellowship in that city. Dr. Bob's

wife Anne was the one who persuaded the doctor

to start attending these new Oxford Group meetings

early in 1933, shortly after they were begun.

Now it should be noted that Dr. Bob was not able

to get sober just by joining the Oxford Group,

but it created the link which allowed him to meet

Bill W. two years later, in May, 1935. It also

gave him enough knowledge of Oxford Group

principles to allow him and Bill W. to start

talking together productively from the very

start, and creating the Alcoholics Anonymous

movement by modifying and adapting those Oxford

Group principles. [8]



So Kitchen had connections of one sort or another

with both of the founders of A.A., with Bill W.

directly, but indirectly with Dr. Bob too. This

is part of what makes Kitchen's book so important

for understanding early A.A.



______________________________



NOTES:



[1] Victor Constant Kitchen, "I Was a Pagan"

(New York: Harper & Brothers, 1934). There is an

edition available on the internet at www.stepstudy.org

www dot stepstudy dot org).



[2] From Dick B. (Kihei, Hawaii), based on his

researches. Dick is the author of a number of books

on A.A. and the Oxford Group, including Dick B.,

"The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous" (Seattle,

Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1992) and Dick B.,

"The Oxford Group & Alcoholics Anonymous" (Seattle,

Washington: Glen Abbey Books, 1992).



[3] The Big Book = "Alcoholics Anonymous," 4th

edit. (New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World

Services, 2001 [1st edit. 1939]), pp. 8-13.

"Pass It On: The Story of Bill Wilson and How

the A.A. Message Reached the World" (New York:

Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, 1984),

pp. 87, 98, 111-115.



[4] "Pass It On" pp. 116-119 and 127.



[5] From Dick B.'s researches.



[6] Kitchen was born in 1891, according to

the standard bibliographies used by American

university libraries. Bill Wilson was born on

November 26, 1895.



[7] Dick B. (Kihei, Hawaii) was told this by

Oxford Group members from the 1930's when he

was interviewing them.



[8] "Pass It On" pp. 53-60.


0 -1 0 0
3306 Jean Cottel
Question about Clyde Bertram "Freeman" Question about Clyde Bertram "Freeman" 4/10/2006 12:04:00 AM


I have come across a booklet called "Stand Tall

Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman."

It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'".

No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA.



Information?





Jean Cottel

jcottel@earthlink.net

(jcottel at earthlink.net)


0 -1 0 0
3307 gbaa487
Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital 4/10/2006 10:45:00 AM


I understand that Bill W.'s first three trips to

Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law,

Dr. Strong.



Who paid for his fourth trip, in December 1934?



Thanks,

George


0 -1 0 0
3308 Tom Hickcox
Use of Dash in First Step Use of Dash in First Step 4/10/2006 10:57:00 AM


When discussing the First Step in meetings, a

local pedant insists that Bill W. put the dash,

or, as he says, line separator, there on purpose

to signify that both phrases of the Step have

equal importance.



My problem with this is several-fold. Bill was

not that accomplished a writer, at least at this

point in his life, and if what he tells us of the

origin of the steps in "Twelve Steps in Thirty

Minutes" is true, I doubt if the intricacies of

English grammar and writing were in the forefront

of his mind when these were written down. His

formal education in English would have been what

he had in secondary school and perhaps the semester

of college he spent at Norwich. I am a product

of a New England prep school and they weren't

teaching those distinctions fifty years ago.



I also scanned about fifty contiguous pages of the

Big Book counting dashes/hyphens/line separators

and semi-colons. I chose semi-colons as one could

pick them out without having to read the text.

There was an equal amount of each, roughly thirty-five,

or one each on every page-and-a-half. This indicates

[not proves-indicates] that these dashes, etc., were

put in randomly along with semi-colons and perhaps

some other devices to avoid using the same thing over

and over. Bill has said that he alternated words

in several instances towards this same end.



Another problem I have with the pedant's assertion

is that I see no indication from the founders and

those who helped write the Big Book that it was

intended to be studied in this detail. I live in

the Bible Belt and there is among some people a mind

set that every word sprang off Bill W's pencil at the

direct order of God Himself., but that's a different

topic.



I am discussing history here, not recovery. I am not

arguing that the two parts of the First Step are not

of equal importance but rather that the argument about

the dash/line separator is invalid.



I would also note that over the years I have not

heard this assertion from anyone else nor have I read

it in any A.A. book or on any of the many A.A. related

sites out there on the internet. I suspect it came

from a circuit speaker. I would just like some feedback

from those better versed than I as to the substance

of the assertion.



Tommy in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
3309 trixiebellaa
silkworth''s letter silkworth''s letter 4/2/2006 1:10:00 PM


Hi history lovers, could you please tell us why

this part of Dr. Silkworth's second letter was in

the original manuscript of the Big Book, but taken

out when the book went to the printers.



"Then there are those who are never properly adjusted

to life, who are the so-called neurotics. The prognosis

of this type is unfavorable."



Thank you for your help in this mattter.


0 -1 0 0
3310 K D Dew
Joe and Charlie tapes online Joe and Charlie tapes online 4/7/2006 5:23:00 AM


A while back I stumbled upon a link that had a

series of 9 real audio recordings of Joe and Charlie

and the big book study along with a word document

transcription of that session.



Unfortunately, I had a hard drive crash and I'm unable

to locate the backup that I made.



If anyone knows the link, please send it to me at

my e-mail address:



Kddew_md@bardstowncable.net

(Kddew_md at bardstowncable.net)





Kevin


0 -1 0 0
3311 Mike Aycock
Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? 4/6/2006 1:19:00 AM


I have a boxed set which includes Bill W. (AA), Dr. Bob

(AA), and Lois W. (Al-anon). On this CD however Lois

just has a few words to say. I do know that there are a

few recordings by her. If you need more info on this you

can probably check with James M. at:



JamesTapes@aol.com



(JamesTapes at aol.com).


0 -1 0 0
3312 Joe Nugent
RE: Joe and Charlie tapes online Joe and Charlie tapes online 4/10/2006 1:59:00 PM


http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm



_____



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of K D Dew

Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 5:24 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Joe and Charlie tapes online





A while back I stumbled upon a link that had a

series of 9 real audio recordings of Joe and Charlie

and the big book study along with a word document

transcription of that session.



Unfortunately, I had a hard drive crash and I'm unable

to locate the backup that I made.



If anyone knows the link, please send it to me at

my e-mail address:



Kddew_md@bardstowncable.net

(Kddew_md at bardstowncable.net)





Kevin

















_____



YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS







* Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers> " on the web.





* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >





* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .





_____









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3313 Billy-Bob
Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online Joe and Charlie tapes online 4/10/2006 12:51:00 PM


The Joe & Charlie tapes promote the myth that early AA's had a higher success

rate, and that by returning to the mythical "old way" of working the AA program,

AA can reduce the relapse rate and get more people sober.



The truth is the relapse rate and failure rate in early AA was extremely high.

BiLL W. admits this in his memorial speech at Dr. Bob's funeral and Francis

Hartigan points this out in his biography of Bill W.



I don't dislike the Joe & Charlie tapes but I do dislike the fact that they

continue to be on a crusade to return AA to a mythical time that never existed

in the first place.



Sincerely, Jim F.


0 -1 0 0
3314 Jan L. Robinson
RE: Joe and Charlie tapes online Joe and Charlie tapes online 4/10/2006 7:44:00 PM


There is a great Joe and Charlie site. Here is the address

http://kischat.com/bigbook/joeandcharlie.html


0 -1 0 0
3315 Glenn Chesnut
V. C. Kitchen''s obituary (Oxford Group author) V. C. Kitchen''s obituary (Oxford Group author) 4/12/2006 4:23:00 PM


One of our AAHistoryLovers, reference librarian

Charlie C., has come up with exactly the kind of

information I was looking for:

___________________________________



Obituary in the New York Times, January 30, 1975, p. 37.



KITCHEN — Victor Constant, son of the late Dr. and

Mrs. J. M. W. Kitchen of East Orange, N.J., born

New York City, April 9, 1891, died at home in Cabool,

Missouri, Jan. 29, 1975. Husband of Elsie Rodman

Kitchen, father of Beverly K. Almond of Bloomfield,

N.J., Myra K. Prindle, Redding, Conn., Hope K. Ayer,

Cabool. Nine grandchildren and five great-grandchildren.

Attended Carteret Academy, East Orange High School,

Stevens Institute of Technology, Columbia School of

Journalism. Advertising executive, Doyle, Kitchen &

McCormick, N.Y.C. Since 1934, full time with Oxford

Group and Moral Re-Armament. Author of the book,

"I Was A Pagan." Gathering of gratitude at his home,

Route 2, Cabool, Mo., 3 P.M., Saturday, Feb. 1.

Eventual interment, Gilmantown, N.H. In lieu of

flowers, family suggests remembrance to Up With People,

3103 No. Campbell Ave., Tucson, Ariz. 85719.

___________________________________



This information was in response to Message 3305,

from Glenn C., on "V. C. Kitchen and the Oxford Group"



"I have been doing research on one of the important

Oxford Group books, V. C. Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan,"

for a book which I am writing .... If any members

of the AAHistoryLovers can provide me with any

additional information about V. C. Kitchen's life,

I would greatly appreciate it."


0 -1 0 0
3316 Doug B.
Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online Joe and Charlie tapes online 4/10/2006 9:19:00 PM


Billy-Bob and Jim,



The Joe and Charlie Big Book studies that I have attended

in the past were nothing like you suggested in your response.



They were keeping it very simple and didn't seem to be on

any crusade except that of actually having you read the book

for yourself.



Then again, I haven't been to one in ten years..maybe their

message has changed?



Doug B.

Riverside, CA



<dougb@aahistory.com>

(dougb at aahistory.com)


0 -1 0 0
3317 serenityodaat
Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online Joe and Charlie tapes online 4/12/2006 11:29:00 AM


Hiya Jim!



This is from the foreword to the second edition of

"Alcoholics Anonymous":



"While the internal difficulties of our adolescent

period were being ironed out, public acceptance of

A.A. grew by leaps and bounds. For this there were two

principal reasons: the large number of recoveries, and

reunited homes. These made their impressions

everywhere. Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really

tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way;

25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the

remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed

improvement. Other thousands came to a few A.A.

meetings and at first decided they didnìt want the

program. But great numers of these - about two out of

three - began to return as time passed."

- page xix and xx



When I sum this text up I get a recovery rate of

approx. 90%. And this is A.A. in general. The

Cleveland area showed a 100% recovery rate for a long

period of time.



Kindest Regards from Sweden with Love!

Anders B



Recovered alcoholic by the Grace of God

______________________________



Note from the moderator:



In this group (unlike an AA chat group, of which

there are many) we're trying to keep away from

just people giving their opinions on things, no

matter how heartfelt their convictions.



This message however centers on a question of fact.

Anders has cited a quotation from the foreword to

the Big Book, and that involves a matter of historical

fact. One can also come up with a number of other

statements from the early period saying things quite

similar to this.



The key question is, what does the above statement

actually mean, factually?



The crucial clause in the passage which Anders

quoted is one which people often overlook:

"Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried."

Go back and read that quotation from the foreword

to the Big Book, and notice that phrase.



That quotation says that 50% of the people who

"really tried" got sober. But how many does it

write off as people who didn't "really try"?

There is one place where Bill W. says that 3 or 4

out of every 5 people who came to their AA meetings,

decided after just a few meetings that this program

was not for them, and disappeared.



If 80% of the people who came to a few meetings

(4 out of 5) disappeared after a short period of

time, because "they didn't really want to try,"

there were only 20% left after that point. If only

50% of these actually got sober, that was a success

rate of only 10%, if we calculate these figures the

way they are calculated in analyzing modern AA

statistics.



Arthur S. and Tom E. have been going through all

the early data which they can find, and they have

come to the conclusion that early AA almost certainly

had a much better than 10% success rate. Bill

Wilson was probably being overly pessimistic when

he said that 3 or 4 out of every 5 people disappeared

after a few meetings. But we have a large number of

statements from the early period making it clear

that they were also most definitely not achieving

anything nearly approaching a 50% success rate, if

we count all parts of the U.S. and Canada, and

everybody who had some kind of brief contact with

AA.



How about modern AA in the U.S. and Canada? The

best analysis of that data that I have seen is the

one which was given in Message 2379, which I attack

to the bottom of this posting. Just like in early

AA, we have large numbers of people in the modern

period who come to a few meetings, but then disappear.

Nowadays, 53% of the people who come to a few AA

meetings do not make it through to the end of their

third month. But of those who do make it past the

three month mark, 56% of those will be able to make

it successfully through their first year.



The main thing is to quit comparing apples and

oranges. The early AA figures, as in the passage

which Anders quotes, regularly make the claim that

50% of those who "really tried" ending up being

able to stay sober the first time through the program.

That is quite correct. By comparison, the modern AA

figures show that 56% of those who start attending

AA meetings and make it past their first three months

-- these are the ones whom the old timers would say

"really tried" -- end up making it successfully to

the end of their first year.



To my reckoning, that is fundamentally the same

kind of basic success rate, both then and now, a

roughly 50% success rate back then among those

who "really tried," and a roughly 56% success rate

now among those who "really tried."



Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

______________________________



Message 2379



From: ny-aa@att.net

Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:56 am

Subject: Success vs. Gloom-and-Doom



-------------------------------



[MODERATOR'S SUMMARY OF THE DATA GIVEN BELOW:

56% of those who stay three months are still

active in AA at the end of a year. That first

year is the hardest: the retention rates

dramatically improve for those who have earned

their one-year chip. The current U.S. population

(U.S. Census Bureau) is 296 million, with around

220 million over eighteen years of age. In the

data given below, the NIAAA estimates that roughly

8% of the U.S. population over age 18 abuse alcohol

(17.6 million out of 220 million), but that there

are only 7.9 million true alcoholics over eighteen

years of age in the U.S., which is 3.6% of the

population over eighteen years of age. With roughly

1 million AA members, that means that around 12 to

13% of these genuine alcoholics (about one out of

eight) is in AA at this point.]



-------------------------------



FROM <ny-aa@att.net>:



There is a tendency of some observers to offer

a pessimistic view of A.A. today. This becomes the

basis for advocating return to the practices of

some time in the past. Often, they back this up

with a misreading of one particular graph in a

summary of the 1977 through 1989 Triennial Surveys.



"Percent of Those Coming to AA Within the First

Year Who Have Remained the Indicated Number of

Months." It graphed the "Month" and "Dist"

(distribution) columns here. Note the "Dist" column

adds up to 100. It is NOT a retention percentage.

For every 100 people surveyed with under a year,

13% were in their 2nd month and 9% were in their

4th month. The "New" column I added is scaled to

show retention. The "3mo" column tracks retention

after the usual introductary period when, presumably,

only "real alcoholics" (about half) will stay.



Month Dist . New . 3mo

1 ... 19 ... 100

2 ... 13 .... 68

3 ... 10 .... 53

4 .... 9 .... 47 . 100 <=== Over 3 months

5 .... 8 .... 42 .. 89

6 .... 7 .... 42 .. 83

7 .... 7 .... 36 .. 77

8 .... 6 .... 34 .. 72

9 .... 6 .... 32 .. 68

10 ... 6 .... 30 .. 64

11 ... 6 .... 28 .. 60

12 ... 5 .... 26 .. 56



The Dist(1)=19 does NOT mean that "81% dropped

out in a month." Dist(3)=10 does NOT mean that

"90% leave within three months." And Dist(12)=5

does NOT mean that "95 abandon active participation

in AA inside of a year." What it does show is

that 56% of those who stay three months are still

active in A.A. at the end of a year. Other Survey

results show substantially better retention rates

after the first year. Here is a typical example of

misinterpretation of the table.



> "Those of us who have survived in A.A. for a

> good many years know for a certainty the dire

> failure statistics of today -- statistics reported

> by A.A.'s own service structure:

> 81% of new members drop out in a month;

> 90% leave within three months; and

> 95% abandon the active participation in AA inside

> of a year."



That's just not true. Another misreading of statistics

is to forget that not everyone who shows up at an

A.A. meeting is an alcoholic. And not everyone with

"a drinking problem" is an alcoholic (yet) either.

For example, in 2002 the National Institute on Alcohol

Abuse and Alcoholism said that there were 9.7 million

"alcohol abusers" and 7.9 million "alcohol dependent

people" over age eighteen. There are clear definitions

for these two categories. Only the 7.9 million are

what A.A. calls "real alcoholics." These NIAAA numbers

are misquoted as:



> "And in America, there are less than a million

> AAs at any given time out of an estimated

> eighteen million alcoholics in all."



Eighteen million is the total of "real alcoholics" and

"a certain type of hard drinker." Further, most

alcoholics have never tried or even visited Alcoholics

Anonymous and have never made any serious attempt at

recovery through any other means. With that in mind,

one million sober American AAs is rather impressive.

It also shows the need to reach out and invite more

alcoholics to try Alcoholics Anonymous. Let's hope

the pessimistic message of gloom-and-doom doesn't scare

away and discourage the rest of those who need help.



-------------------------------



[ADDITIONAL NOTE BY MODERATOR: In early AA, they

often said that 50% of those (as they put it) "who

made a serious effort" in AA got sober the first

time they tried. Careful reading of the early

documents and interviews with old timers makes it

clear that they were not counting those who came to

a few meetings but then fizzled out when they gave

their 50% success rate. When early groups gave their

membership figures, they usually made a rough-and-ready

but clear distinction between the numbers of those

at their weekly meetings who were just coming to a

few meetings at that point and the numbers of those

who were much more committed members. So early

success rates were not actually all that much

different from the present success rate. AA is

still extraordinarily effective today, just as it

was in the old days, particularly when we remember

that alcoholism has always been the third leading

cause of death in the United States ever since the

1930's: a fifty percent remission rate for what is

frequently a fatal disease is medically impressive

by any standards.]


0 -1 0 0
3318 backtobasicsbillybob
The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan''s Book In Regard To Early AA''s Success The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan''s Book In Regard To Early AA''s Success 4/12/2006 1:50:00 PM


"We have to wonder why both the Wilson's and the Smiths did not simply

give up. Today the nations best treatment centers report success rates

ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent. During Bill's stay in Akron, he

and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 percent, and among

the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were able to maintain

consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big Book, published in

1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many of AA's earliest

members. Some years later, Bill made notations in the first copy of

the book to come off the press, indicating which of the individuals

portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 percent had not."



Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Pages 91-92


0 -1 0 0
3319 backtobasicsbillybob
The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 4/12/2006 2:18:00 PM


"You haven't any conception these days of how much failure we had. How

you had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take

the bait. Yes, the discouragement's were very great but some did stay

sober and some very tough ones at that."

Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street

Club in New York City, New York.



To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob


0 -1 0 0
3320 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Use of Dash in First Step Use of Dash in First Step 4/10/2006 2:28:00 PM


Messages from Ernest Kurtz, James Blair, Tim T.,

Mackley, Robert Stonebraker, and mrjocisoo7

on the dash used as punctuation in the middle

of the first step.

______________________________

From: Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@umich.edu>

(kurtzern at umich.edu)



On Bill W's intentions in writing AA's First Step:

Bill commented in several letters, usually to

individuals inquiring about the distinction

between "defects of character" and "shortcomings"

in Steps Six and Seven, along the lines that he

had no such ideas in mind as he wrote those Steps,

but that he thought it wonderful that people found

so much in them.



My reading of some of the drafts of Bill's AAGV

articles, later collected in *The Language of

the Heart,* inclines me to suspect he would have

said something similar about portions of the AA

Big Book.



ernie k.

______________________________



From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)

What is historical about the proper use of English

grammar? Bill may not of been up there with Einstein

but he did have some command of the English language.



"We admitted we were powerless over alcohol (end of

thought) - (new thought) that our lives had become

unmanaageable."



We need to stick to reading the black stuff and leave

the white stuff alone.



Jim

______________________________



From: Tim T. <pvttimt@aol.com>

(pvttimt at aol.com)



Tim T., here, an alky.



How interesting! My grand-sponsor Bob Anderson

"ran" our meeting in which I got sober finally in 1978.

At the time he had 25 years, having sobered up in

Cleveland in 1953. His sponsor was an iceman named

Ed S. who in turn sobered up on the Cleveland-Akron

AA axis. Bob has been dead for 7-8 years now, having

finished his aa career in southern California.



My grand-sponsor taught us stuff that isn't

exactly in the big book, but he claimed was the

"original" way it was taught in the early days in

northern Ohio. It included his description of the

"dash in the First Step!" And he taught us just as

you described it!



Another bit of "original" lore he taught us

was that the Second Step is found in the big book

between the ABC's and the Third Step prayer. Right

after the ABC's it says: "Being convinced, we were

at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our

will and our life over to God as we understood Him.

Just what do we mean by that, and just what do we do?"

Bob taught us that this means that in order to be

convinced, we must work Step Two, and that the

discussion that follows is therefore Step Two.



Then, just before the Third Step prayer, it

says, "We were now at Step Three." Bob would say to

us, "How can you NOW be at Step Three, if what went

before wasn't Step Two?" And it kind of all made

sense to us, how the preceding discussion about

running the show, being the director, selfishness

and self-centeredness, troubles of our own making,

etc, etc, was largely a description of the insanity

of Step Two. His point was that our thinking is

still screwed up even when we are dry. Made sense

to me. And it was very helpful to me in working

through my early sobriety.



I guess those of us around today will never

really appreciate the apparent wide diversity of

opinion and approaches taken in the early days.

One also has to remember that there weren't very

many at that time. I'd imagine that some millions

of folks have come in, stayed, gone back out,

whatever over the last 70-ish years. It makes this

forum valuable in appreciating that wide range of

opinions.



Thanks for your subject.

Tim.

______________________________



mackleyhome@aol.com

(mackleyhome at aol.com)



Tommy, I suggest that you check a high school English

Text for that time period. You might well find that the ninth

punctuation mark was the DASH. It's most common usage

was to indicate "end of complete thought" DASH or --

"beginning of new and somehow related thought." It was on

having this pointed out to me that I realized for the first time

that my life was unmanageable because of my drinking, not

the reverse. As to Bill's education, didn't he had two

advanced degrees?



And you use the word pedant as if it were a bad thing.



Just thought you might be interested.



Mackley

Rayville LA.

______________________________



From: "Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

(rstonebraker212@insightbb.com)



Dear Tommy,



Your point is well taken on Bill’s punctuation

skills at but it is good to remember that other

well educated (in writing) people had to do with

the changing from the ‘final draft’ to the first

printing, first edition, Big Book, e.g.:



Mar (?), The much changed book manuscript was turned

over to Tom Uzzell. He was a friend of Hank P, an

editor at Collier’s and a member of the NYU faculty.

The manuscript was variously estimated as 600 to

1,200 pages (including personal stories). Uzzell

reduced it to approximately 400 pages. Most cuts

came from the personal stories, which had also been

edited by Jim S (The News Hawk) a journalist from

Akron, OH. (AACOA 164, BW-FH 126, PIO 203)



Silkworth and Dr Tiebout offered similar advice.

(AACOA 167-168 NG 67-77)



The dash:



I have always thought the dash simply completes the

sentence, e.g.: “She was very smart – she got

straight ‘A’s”



Or powerless – unmanageable. This means to me that

the fact my life may be unmanageable today has

little to do with the fact that I drank alcoholically

a long time ago.



Thanks for the subject,

Bob S, from Indiana

______________________________



From: mrjocisoo7@aol.com

(mrjocisoo7 at aol.com)



The detailed study of the big book allows us to

really stay busy. But also help us target the very

book that has helped millions of people. I am pro

study in detail. It helps centers me.


0 -1 0 0
3321 John Pine
Re: Question about Clyde Bertram "Freeman" Question about Clyde Bertram "Freeman" 4/10/2006 2:16:00 PM


I heard Clyde speak at a conference in Pennsylvania

about six or seven years ago...I was most struck by

his ability (need?) to recite "How it Works" from

memory. He was then more than 50 years sober.

He was also pitching his book, which didn't carry

his real name due to the anonymity tradition.



I believe he was a carpenter through most of his

drinking, and became a certfied addiction counselor

after he got sober.



John





On 4/10/06, Jean Cottel <jcottel@earthlink.net> wrote:



> I have come across a booklet called "Stand Tall

> Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman."

> It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'".

> No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA.

>

> Information?

>

>

> Jean Cottel

> jcottel@earthlink.net

> (jcottel at earthlink.net)


0 -1 0 0
3322 John S.
RE: Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital 4/10/2006 7:51:00 PM


As I read the literature (especially ‘The Doctor’s Opinion’) the first page

of the first of the two letters on page xxv (4th ed) it states clearly: “In

the course of his third treatment he acquired certain ideas concerning a

possible means of recovery.” It has always been my understanding that he

only made 3 trips to Charlie Town’s hospital. In ‘Bill’s Story’ on page 7

he describes what I believe to be his first trip to Town’s when he says: “My

brother-in-law is a physician, and through his kindness and that of my

mother I was placed in a nationally-known hospital for the mental and

physical rehabilitation of alcoholics.” Further down on that same page he

relates: “After a time I returned to the hospital.” On page 8 he relates

that: “on ‘Armistice Day’ (November 11th) 1934 I was off again.” Then

finally on page 13 he states: “At the hospital I was separated from alcohol

for the last time. Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium

tremens.” This would appear to this old drunk to be the ‘third and final’

time he went to Town’s hospital.



Submitted in humility for your consideration,



John S.



____________________________________



Original Message:



I understand that Bill W.'s first three trips to

Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law,

Dr. Strong.



Who paid for his fourth trip, in December 1934?



Thanks,

George


0 -1 0 0
3323 Ken Ring
Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? 4/11/2006 8:56:00 AM


Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:19:54 -0700

From: "Mike Aycock" <mike_ayc@comcast.net>

Subject: Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking?



I thought that someone else would mention this.



There is an organization in Minnesota that does an great amount of AA

& Al-Anon taping that has several different recordings of Lois W.



http://www.gstl.org/

Go to their site map and scroll down to Al-Anon history to start.

(Gopher State Tape Library, established 1974).



Ken R.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3324 Chris Budnick
Question about "Freeman Carpenter" = Clyde B. Question about "Freeman Carpenter" = Clyde B. 4/13/2006 1:00:00 AM


Here is an interesting link I found: http://www.freemancarpenter.com/



Chris B.

Raleigh, NC

______________________________



On 4/10/06, Jean Cottel <jcottel@earthlink.net> wrote:



> I have come across a booklet called "Stand Tall

> Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman."

> It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'".

> No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA.

>

> Information?

>

> Jean Cottel

> jcottel@earthlink.net

> (jcottel at earthlink.net)


0 -1 0 0
3325 ArtSheehan
RE: Use of Dash in First Step Use of Dash in First Step 4/13/2006 11:05:00 AM


To again cite the famous and eloquent John Wayne: "Hold on there

pilgrims!" If we are going to delve into the mystical and esoteric

connotations of punctuation marks then let's get those gol-darn

punctuation marks straight by golly.



[Citation from a web article by Peter K Sheerin]



"When you need a dash, for whatever reason, you need a dash--not a

hyphen. There are two kinds of dashes: the n-dash and the m-dash.



The n-dash is called that because it is the same width as the letter

"n". The m-dash is longer--the width of the letter "m". We use the

n-dash for numerical ranges, as in "6-10 years." When we need a dash

as a form of parenthetical punctuation in a sentence--as I have been

using it rather freely already in this article--we use the m-dash.



An “em” is a unit of measurement defined as the point size of the

font—12 point type uses a 12 point “em.” An “en” is one-half of an

“em.”



Now after due consideration of the profound analyses and divinations

of the information below, after factoring in such powerful hearsay

sources as "my sponsor said" there is only one solid conclusion:



Jim B is correct - much is being read that isn’t written there.



Bill W claims to have drafted the 12 Steps in 30 minutes (and with a

sour stomach). Does anyone truly believe that the selection of a

single punctuation was all that significant or profound?



I absolutely love the way AA members can micro-parse a syllable and/or

punctuation mark and conjure up (oh so seriously and profoundly) all

kinds of conclusions that rest far more on imagination than

information.



But what a dull society we would have if folks didn’t do it (rule #62

and grin, grin, wink, wink, nudge, nudge).



Cheers

Arthur



PS Bill W was supposed to have been one incomplete class away from a

night school law degree.



PPS Can anyone divine the mystical significance of my use of a colon

in the 1st paragraph?


0 -1 0 0
3326 Matthugh Bennett
Emmet Fox Emmet Fox 4/13/2006 1:55:00 PM


I was wondering if there was any documentation as

to the early members being readers or listeners of

Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for

about a year and find the spirit of the message

strong there.



I had someone tell me that there was "AA History"

where there was no Emmet and then "revised history"

with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical

standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not

kept it from helping me grow spiritually!

________________________________



From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's

book was widely read and greatly admired in early

A.A., see for example:



The Old-Time Akron Reading List:

Books for A.A. Beginners



(http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html)



A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL),

published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early

1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and

handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to

the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end

of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A.,

so that they might better understand the spiritual

aspects of the program.



"The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has

helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous":



(1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book).



(2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount

in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians

13, and Psalms 23 and 91).



(3) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond.



(4) The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing

Co., Milwaukee).



(5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen.



(6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.).



(7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades.



(8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M.

Ligon (Macmillan Co.).



(9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones.



(10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton.

________________________________



As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on

the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is

easy to obtain copies of this book.



There is a new edition of Allen's and Drummond's

books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see

http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html).



Allen's book in particular hits many of the same

themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early

twentieth century approach to spirituality was

called New Thought. Many early AA members were

strongly influenced by New Thought in their

interpretation of the AA program. The Unity

Church of Peace is one group which still teaches

a New Thought approach to spirituality.



(This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means

magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of

thiing.)



The Detroit Pamphlet (the Detroit version of the

Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early

A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from

Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the

Beam." ***

________________________________



Can any members of the group give us other references

to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA

literature?



There was one weekly meeting in early AA in South

Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's

book during their meetings, and insisted that

everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar

with that book.

________________________________



*** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox



(http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html)



Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is

produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this

beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get

his bearings in any other way.

As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he

immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more.

Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which

to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some

sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if

outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off

the beam you are in danger.

You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or

frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately

get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His

Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the

promises in the Bible are true today.

If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your

own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will

reach port in safety.

Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you.


0 -1 0 0
3327 ArtSheehan
RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 4/13/2006 3:15:00 PM


The following is information that was also previously sent to Billy

Bob in private and pleasant exchange of emails. I'd like to also

submit it [slightly edited] for consideration.



It could be reasonably stated that many [who show up at AA meetings]

never really [give AA an opportunity] to begin with. That’s why [over

time] citations of the %50 + 25% = 75% rate by Bill W and others was

qualified to only include “of those who really tried.”...



What is often missing from discussions of successes or failures is

that thousands of prospects may show up at AA meetings but only a

fraction will go on to decide to give AA’s recovery program a try. [It

is also reasonable to presume that if zero efforts are put in to AA

then zero results will come out of it].



Those that do not decide to give AA a try cannot, and should not, be

factored into the success rate calculations without grotesquely

distorting it. It would be analogous to trying to measure the

effectiveness of a medical procedure by including people who suffer

from the medical problem but decide not to seek help from a doctor or

a hospital. They at least have to try the medical procedure to asses

its effectiveness and so too with AA’s recovery program. Bill W

frequently attempted to emphasize this consideration but it seems to

get obscured.



In all likelihood, when discussing success rates, we are indeed

talking about a small fraction of those who showed up at meetings or

those who were approached in a 12th Step call. It’s likely even more

severe today given the number of people who are involuntarily sent to

AA by courts and others.



In a reprint of a November 1949 article in the American Journal of

Psychiatry, Bill W wrote



“Of alcoholics who stay with us and really try, 50% get sober at once

and stay that way, 25% do so after some time and the remainder usually

show improvement. But many problem drinkers do quit AA after a brief

contact, maybe three or four out of five. Some are too psychopathic or

damaged. But the majority have powerful rationalizations yet to be

broken down. Exactly this does happen provided they get what AA calls

“good exposure” on first contact. Alcohol then builds such a hot fire

that they are finally driven back to us, often years later.”



Note the qualification [in 1949] by Bill W, that the 50-75% “success

rate” applies to a subset of about 1-2 prospects out of 5. The

remainder of the prospects (3 or 4 out of 5) “quit AA after a brief

contact.”



[from another private email to Billy Bob and others]



The topic of “AA success rates” has been of interest to me for quite

some time. I believe it suffers from a great deal of anecdotal

misinformation, misinterpretation and editorializing and seems to

divide itself into two categories:



1. Verifying the popular, and repeated, notion of about a 50% success

rate (with about 25% of the “slippers” returning to successfully

recover). This has been the prevailing “best guess” of AA’s recovery

outcomes going back to the late 1930s. From research I’ve done so far,

I believe this is probably a reasonable “best estimate” of AA’s

success (both early and current AA). The only qualification being that

it applies to those who attempt to give AA a try (i.e. you get out of

AA what you put into it).



2. Scrutinizing a newer (and quite erroneous) assertion that AA is

achieving a 5% or less success rate. This is based on a

misinterpretation of a 1989 GSO report examining prior AA membership

surveys (see Tom E’s AAHistoryLovers posting #2379). The 5% notion is

bogus but there is a segment of AA members that not only readily

believes it but also attempts to exploit it to support personal

agendas. To me, this is one of the biggest disservices AA members are

doing to AA today (all of course claiming to rescue AA from itself and

its presumed decline). The most historically revisionist, in this 5%

[assertion is] the Back to Basics crowd. It is the principle [and very

dubious] premise of their existence.



Assessment of success rates” is complicated by the fact that, beyond a

very limited period of time [and limited scope] in early AA, there is

no consistent statistical record keeping backing up an assertion of

recovery successes one way or another. Because of AA’s autonomous

structure, it’s a major effort to just get a reasonable estimate of

the number of groups much less an estimate of member recovery

outcomes.



One thing that is important to arriving at an informed conclusion in

our forum is that members of AAHistoryLovers retain the opportunity to

express their viewpoints and findings irrespective of whether it is

popular or unpopular. This way whatever is presented is subjected to

both defense and refutation of its validity. As a result, sooner or

later the facts will emerge and prevail. This is the same methodology

used in the academic arena and it works (warts and all).



One of the more difficult issues to reconcile is the case of

figurative statements being interpreted literally. For example, Bill W

is often cited as having said this or that as if Bill was in

possession of hard statistical data when in fact he was simply

offering a personal estimate of what he sincerely believed. The same

is true for statements in AA literature. In those cases where there is

a local study of success and failure, the question arises whether the

study can serve to rise to the level of statistical confidence to

describe the Fellowship as a whole at the time - or does it simply

describe the local area.



As a human being, Bill W made errors in his recording of AA history.

It was not done to be deceptive or misleading but was only the product

of human error. The difficulty is that many in AA take a stand that if

something is in the Big Book then it is accorded the same standing as

scripture and if something is said by Bill W it is irrefutable. This

is when it gets awkward (and sometimes heated). Likewise, the authors

of AA literature (Bill W included) are also human and can make human

errors in research and reporting.



The other difficulty is how to frame fragments of information into

proper context. For example, [Billy Bob’s citation of Francis Hartigan

has a basis of truth but is being taken out of context].



Francis Hartigan, in his book “Bill W” mentions his (Hartigan’s)

interpretation of the “success rate” that Bill and Bob achieved while

Bill was staying with Bob in Akron from May to August 1935.



What’s missing from the description of this period of time is that

Bill and Dr Bob (who also suffered a relapse during the period) had 2

failures and 2 successes. The failures were a Dr McK (mentioned in

Bill’s autobiography “Bill W My First 40 Years”) and Edgar “Eddie” R

mentioned in “Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers.” The successes were Bill

D (AA #3) and Ernie G (albeit a temporary success that would later go

the way of Ebby T). However, the main omission, in terms of context,

was that the target population of prospects were alcoholics of the

type that were written off as hopeless and beyond any help (so that a

single success would be remarkable in terms of the typical fatal

outcome for these prospects).



The other context issue concerns remarks attributed to Bill W at Dr

Bob’s memorial (and Hartigan’s citation as well). [In the talk] Bill

qualified that he was referring to the “flying blind” period of AA (so

was Hartigan). It would hardly qualify as an appropriate point of

reference to characterize AA success or failure.



Billy Bob does hit on a point that celebrity (in the case of Joe and

Charlie) can vest members with an aura of historical validity when, in

fact, they are simply relaying what they believe is true but is

lacking in factual demonstration. Clancy I of LA also likes to mention

in his talks that most of the members who had their stories printed in

the 1st edition Big Book went back to drinking. That too is myth and

is completely refuted by Bill W in his introduction to the new stories

in the 2nd edition Big Book. But I guess sticking to the facts doesn’t

always make for an entertaining talk to the circuit speaker folks.



..



Finally, and this can’t be stressed enough, AA started with 2 members

in June 1935 and today has well over 2 million members. That is not a

measurement of failure by anybody’s benchmark. In between 1935 and

today there were tens of millions of alcoholics who recovered and

survived thanks to AA and this too is not factored into the

assessments of success and failure outcomes.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

backtobasicsbillybob

Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:18 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial

Service, Nov. 15th, 1952



"You haven't any conception these days of how much failure we had. How



you had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take



the bait. Yes, the discouragement's were very great but some did stay

sober and some very tough ones at that."

Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street

Club in New York City, New York.



To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob





Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3328 bludahlia2003
Bill W.''s talk at Rockland State Hospital Bill W.''s talk at Rockland State Hospital 4/13/2006 4:56:00 PM


Anyone know where I might find information about

the presentation that Bill W gave to the Board

Meeting at Rockland State Hospital (now known as

Rockland Psychiatric Center) in 1939?


0 -1 0 0
3329 jlobdell54
Re: Freeman Carpenter Freeman Carpenter 4/13/2006 8:36:00 AM


"Freeman Carpenter" (Clyde B., who is alive, sober -- I believe --

since 1946, and should therefore be anonymous) has his own website,

FreemanCarpenter@aol.com, lives in Eastern PA, and has been invited to

the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon PA June 24 2006 -- I don't

know if he'll be able to be there, as he is 86 years old and lives 90

or so miles away. -- Jared Lobdell


0 -1 0 0
3330 ArtSheehan
RE: Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital 4/13/2006 9:49:00 AM


Hi John



Bill had 4 admissions to Towns Hospital.



Source References (with page numbers)



AACOA - AA Comes of Age

BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years

BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan

BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen

GB - Getting Better

LOH - Language of the Heart

LR - Lois Remembers

NG - Not God

NW - New Wine

PIO - Pass It On

RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous (formerly AA the Way It Began)



1933



Autumn, Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at Macy’s ($317 today) turned

to her brother-in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged, and paid for,

Bill W’s first admission to Towns Hospital. Bill was subjected to the

“belladonna cure.” The regimen primarily involved “purging and puking”

aided by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen,

was used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR

85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174)



1934



Jul (?), Bill W’s second admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr

Leonard V Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first time. Silkworth

explained the obsession and allergy of alcoholism but Bill started

drinking again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill was

unemployable, $50,000 in debt ($675,000 today) suicidal and drinking

around the clock. (AACOA 52, PIO 106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15, 310,

BW-FH 50-55)



Sep 17 (date provided by Ron C. of NSW, Australia. - from an Archives

copy of the Towns Hospital admission record). This was Bill W’s third

admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V Strong). Dr

Silkworth pronounced Bill a hopeless drunk and informed Lois that Bill

would likely have to be committed. Bill left the hospital a deeply

frightened man and sheer terror kept him sober. He found a little work

on Wall St, which began to restore his badly shattered confidence.

(PIO 106-109, LR 87, AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310, BW-FH

4-5, 54-55)



Nov 11, Armistice Day. Bill W went to play golf and got drunk and

injured. Lois began investigating sanitariums in which to place Bill.

(AACOA 56-58, BW-FH 56)



Dec 11, after a drunken visit to Calvary Mission, Bill W (age 39)

decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four

bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial help from his

mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA 152,

NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31).



Cheers

Arthur



____________________________________



Original Message:



I understand that Bill W.'s first three trips to

Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law,

Dr. Strong.



Who paid for his fourth trip, in December 1934?



Thanks,

George


0 -1 0 0
3331 Tommy
The Stools and Bottles Talk The Stools and Bottles Talk 4/13/2006 6:37:00 PM


While reading the book "Stools and Bottles" I found out it is written

from a old series of talks given by AA members using a 3 legged stool

and bottles to demostrate character defects.

The book mentions it is only using the highlights.

Is there anywhere I can get a copy of the whole transcript on paper or

the talk on tape.

I have searched this board and the net with no luck.

Thanks for your time.

Tommy H in NC


0 -1 0 0
3332 rrecovery2002
New York Metro Meeting Lists New York Metro Meeting Lists 4/14/2006 10:48:00 PM


In our research for the history of groups in Suffolk County (Long

Island, New York, we have found the New York metro meeting lists

invaluable. These covered Manhattan and the surrounding boroughs. It is

just so difficult tracking them down. General Services Archives has

just a few, as is the case with the other New York area Archives. Is

anyone aware of stash of these some place? Maybe a private collector?


0 -1 0 0
3333 michael oates
AA in Kansas City AA in Kansas City 4/13/2006 6:49:00 PM


I am a member of the first AA group in Kansas City,

that had Black members. It started out as Kansas City

inter-racial or the inter-racial group of Kansas City

it is now called the Paseo AA group.



I was hoping to find someone who came through Kansas

City between 1947 and 1951 that rememebers the old

inter-racial group. It would go a long way in helping

us prepare for our 60th anniversary.


0 -1 0 0
3334 Tom Hickcox
Re: Early A.A. Success Rate Early A.A. Success Rate 4/12/2006 7:58:00 PM


The Hazelden book "Bill W. My First 40 Years,"

has a quote from Bill in its Afterword on p. 167,

"While the overall A.A. program moved toward

stability and maturity, Bill still seemed obsessed

with those who somehow weren't weren't able to

make A.A. work for them. Warning of the dangers

of pride and complacency, he challenged A.A.

members at A.A.'s thirtieth anniversary meeting

with a question: 'What happened to the 600,000

who approached A.A. and left?'" The quote is not

attributed in any foot note. I assume he means

600k came to A.A. during its first thirty years

and didn't stay sober.



My trusty 2nd edition, 7th printing of the Big

Book, published in March, I believe, of 1965

states in a footnote on p. xv, "As of 1965, there

are over 11,000 groups in over 90 countries with

an estimated membership of more than 350,000."

A quick and dirty calculation gives a success

rate of around 40%, actually 36.8%, but this

doesn't include those who came to A.A. and died

sober during the first thirty years. We also

aren't told where Bill got the 600k number.



My problem with all this is in line with what

Glenn C. says. Before one starts making

statements, one needs to define what one is

stating and where the numbers are coming from.



Tommy in Baton Rouge.


0 -1 0 0
3335 jlobdell54
History and Archives Gathering June 24 (Flyer) History and Archives Gathering June 24 (Flyer) 4/14/2006 1:47:00 PM


Here is a copy of the flyer for the June 24 2006 History & Archives

Gathering, Lebanon PA. This is the planned program, assuming no

changes or withdrawals.





MULTI-DISTRICT

HISTORY & ARCHIVES GATHERING



Saturday June 24th 2006



REGISTRATION, COFFEE AND DOUGHNUTS 8 A.M. - 9 A.M.



LIVING AA HISTORY: OLDTIMERS PANEL

LEAD SPEAKER CHET H, HUMMELSTOWN PA DLD 4/4/49



EXPERIENCING AA HISTORY: DOING THE STEPS WITH CLARENCE S

MITCH K, WASHINGTONVILLE NY



PANEL ON WRITING A.A. HISTORY

LEAD SPEAKER GLENN C, SOUTH BEND IN



LUNCH



PANEL ON THE PROPOSED (GSO) AA HISTORY 1955-2000



PANEL ON WRITING AA LOCAL HISTORY: THE FOUNDERS IN EASTERN PA



ARCHIVES EXHIBITS FROM EASTERN PA, MARYLAND, NORTH JERSEY, AND THE

CLARENCE S. ARCHIVES



ST CECILIA'S PARISH HALL

750 STATE DRIVE

LEBANON PA 17042



From PA Turnpike exit at Route 72 (Lancaster-Lebanon Exit), take

Route 72 North into Lebanon (about 6 miles plus). In Lebanon turn

right on Route 422 East at traffic light. Continue to Lincoln

Avenue (about half a mile or less). Turn right on Lincoln to Y in

road where you take the left fork onto State Drive. St Cecilia's

Parish Hall is on the left about a quarter-mile up.



From Lancaster take Route 72 (Manheim Pike) North to Lebanon and

then as above.



From the Northwest, take Route 322 East to I-81 North just outside

of Harrisburg. Take I-81 N to Route 934 and go south on Route 934

(away from Fort Indiantown Gap) a short distance to Route 22. Take

Route 22 East to Route 72 South. Follow Route 72 South through

center of Lebanon to Route 422 East and then as above.



From the North on I-81 Exit at Route 72 South through Lebanon to 422

East and then as above.



From the East on Route 78 Exit at Route 343. Follow Route 343 (a

couple of miles) into Lebanon (N. 7th Street). Turn left on Maple

Street. Go about three-fifths of a mile to Lincoln Avenue. Turn

right on Lincoln to Y in road and continue left on State Drive as

above.


0 -1 0 0
3336 Jon Markle
Re: Emmet Fox Emmet Fox 4/16/2006 10:02:00 AM


When/where I got sober (as they say <GRIN>), all of these were still being

suggested as essential reading (as well as the standard AA literature) Big

Book and the 12x12, etc, the little Black Book, Red Book and Green Book, and

Living Sober. By sponsors and my home group.



One of the things I find appalling in too many meetings today is the lack of

suggestions that newcomers read the literature. We always gave out a copy

of "Living Sober" to all newcomers, whether or not they came back. And

sponsors always made sure their sponsees had the Big Book and a copy of the

12x12, at the very least.



Jon Markle

Raleigh





On 4/13/06 1:55 PM, "Matthugh Bennett" <matthughb@yahoo.com> wrote:



> I was wondering if there was any documentation as

> to the early members being readers or listeners of

> Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for

> about a year and find the spirit of the message

> strong there.

>

> I had someone tell me that there was "AA History"

> where there was no Emmet and then "revised history"

> with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical

> standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not

> kept it from helping me grow spiritually!

> ________________________________

>

> From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's

> book was widely read and greatly admired in early

> A.A., see for example:

>

> The Old-Time Akron Reading List:

> Books for A.A. Beginners

>

> (http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html)

>

> A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL),

> published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early

> 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and

> handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to

> the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end

> of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A.,

> so that they might better understand the spiritual

> aspects of the program.

>

> "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has

> helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous":

>

> (1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book).

>

> (2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount

> in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians

> 13, and Psalms 23 and 91).

>

> (3) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond.

>

> (4) The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing

> Co., Milwaukee).

>

> (5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen.

>

> (6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.).

>

> (7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades.

>

> (8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M.

> Ligon (Macmillan Co.).

>

> (9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones.

>

> (10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton.

> ________________________________

>

> As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on

> the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is

> easy to obtain copies of this book.

>

> There is a new edition of Allen's and Drummond's

> books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see

> http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html).

>

> Allen's book in particular hits many of the same

> themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early

> twentieth century approach to spirituality was

> called New Thought. Many early AA members were

> strongly influenced by New Thought in their

> interpretation of the AA program. The Unity

> Church of Peace is one group which still teaches

> a New Thought approach to spirituality.

>

> (This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means

> magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of

> thiing.)

>

> The Detroit Pamphlet (the Detroit version of the

> Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early

> A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from

> Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the

> Beam." ***

> ________________________________

>

> Can any members of the group give us other references

> to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA

> literature?

>

> There was one weekly meeting in early AA in South

> Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's

> book during their meetings, and insisted that

> everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar

> with that book.

> ________________________________

>

> *** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox

>

> (http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html)

>

> Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam

> is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on

> this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog,

> or get his bearings in any other way.

> As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he

> immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more.

> Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which

> to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some

> sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if

> outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off

> the beam you are in danger.

> You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or

> frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should

> immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought,

> claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you,

> and that the promises in the Bible are true today.

> If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your

> own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will

> reach port in safety.

> Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3337 ArtSheehan
RE: Emmet Fox Emmet Fox 4/16/2006 10:53:00 AM


The Sermon On The Mount by Emmet Fox was published in 1934. Both Fox

and the book were quite popular among early AA members in both NY and

Akron. NY members would also attend Fox's lectures. Dr Bob recommended

it for reading for Akron, OH members.



Please refer to "New Wine" by Mel B, pages 111-112 and 114 and "Dr Bob

and the Good Oldtimers" pages 310-311)



The following is from the February 1996 Grapevine



Emmet Fox and Alcoholics Anonymous



One of the very early recovering alcoholics who worked with co-founder

Bill W. was a man named Al, whose mother was secretary to Emmet Fox, a

popular lecturer on New Thought philosophy. When the early groups were

meeting in New York, members would frequently adjourn after a meeting

and go to Steinway Hall to listen to Fox’s lecture. To this day there

are AA groups that distribute Fox’s pamphlets along with

Conference-approved AA literature.



An account set forth in “Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers” tells of the

influence of Emmet Fox and his classic work, “Sermon on the Mount.” An

AA old-timer recollected: “The first thing he (Dr. Bob) did was to get

Emmet Fox’s ‘Sermon on the Mount’….Once when I was working on a woman

in Cleveland, I called and asked him what to do for someone who is

going into DT’s. He told me to give her the medication and he said,

‘When she comes out of it and she decides she wants to be a different

woman, get her Drummond’s ‘The Greatest Thing in the World.’ Tell her

to read it through every day for thirty days and she’ll be a different

woman.’ Those were the three main books at the time; that and ‘The

Upper Room’ and ‘The Sermon on the Mount.’”



Perhaps the fundamental contribution of Emmet Fox to Alcoholics

Anonymous was the simplicity and power of “The Sermon on the Mount.”

This book sets forth the basic principles of the New Thought

philosophy that “God is the only power, and that evil is

insubstantial; that we form our own destiny by our thoughts and our

beliefs; that conditions do not matter when we pray; that time and

space and matter are human illusions; that there is a solution to

every problem; that man is the child of God, and God is perfect good.”



Central to New Thought philosophy was the perspective which saw that

love and personal forgiveness were the keys to fundamental

transformation: “Love is by far the most important thing of all. It is

the Golden Gate of Paradise. Pray for the understanding of love, and

meditate upon it daily. It casts out fear. It is the fulfilling of the

Law. It covers a multitude of sins. Love is absolutely invincible.”



Fox went on to say that forgiveness was an integral part of the

Pathway of Love, “which is open to everyone in all circumstances, and

upon which you may step at any moment – at this moment if you like –

requires no formal introduction, has no conditions whatever. It calls

for no expensive laboratory in which to work, because your own daily

life, and your ordinary daily surroundings are your laboratory. It

needs no reference library, no professional training, no external

apparatus of any kind. All it does need is that you should begin

steadfastly to expel from your mentality every thought of personal

condemnation (you must condemn a wrong action, but not the actor), of

resentment for old injuries, and of everything which is contrary to

the law of Love. You must not allow yourself to hate either person, or

group, or nation, or anything whatever.



“You must build-up by faithful daily exercise the true

Love-consciousness, and then all the rest of spiritual development

will follow upon that. Love will heal you. Love will illumine you.”

One of the cornerstones of Fox’s philosophy was to live but one day at

a time, to be responsible for one’s own thoughts and to clear up

resentments, just as AA was to teach that “resentments are our number

one cause of slips.” For Fox, one of the most important rules for

growth was to live in the present: “Live in today, and do not allow

yourself to live in the past under any pretense. Living the past means

thinking about the past, rehearsing past events, especially if you do

this with feeling…train yourself to be a man or woman who lives one

day at a time. You’ll be surprised how rapidly conditions will change

for the better when you approach this ideal.”



Emmet Fox emphasized the idea that thoughts are real things, and that

one cannot have one kind of mind and another kind of life. According

to Fox, if we want to change our lives, then we must change our

thoughts first. Many of his simply stated profundities have

contributed to an AA philosophy that has transformed the lives of

literally two million recovering alcoholics.



Igor S., Hartford, Conn.

February 1996 AA Grapevine. © AA Grapevine, Inc.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthugh Bennett

Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:55 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Emmet Fox



I was wondering if there was any documentation as

to the early members being readers or listeners of

Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for

about a year and find the spirit of the message

strong there.



I had someone tell me that there was "AA History"

where there was no Emmet and then "revised history"

with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical

standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not

kept it from helping me grow spiritually!

________________________________



From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's

book was widely read and greatly admired in early

A.A., see for example:



The Old-Time Akron Reading List:

Books for A.A. Beginners



(http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html)



A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL),

published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early

1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and

handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to

the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end

of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A.,

so that they might better understand the spiritual

aspects of the program.



"The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has

helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous":



(1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book).



(2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount

in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians

13, and Psalms 23 and 91).



(3) The Greatest Thing in the World, Henry Drummond.



(4) The Unchanging Friend, a series (Bruce Publishing

Co., Milwaukee).



(5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen.



(6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.).



(7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades.



(8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M.

Ligon (Macmillan Co.).



(9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones.



(10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton.

________________________________



As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on

the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is

easy to obtain copies of this book.



There is a new edition of Allen's and Drummond's

books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see

http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html).



Allen's book in particular hits many of the same

themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early

twentieth century approach to spirituality was

called New Thought. Many early AA members were

strongly influenced by New Thought in their

interpretation of the AA program. The Unity

Church of Peace is one group which still teaches

a New Thought approach to spirituality.



(This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means

magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of

thiing.)



The Detroit Pamphlet (the Detroit version of the

Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early

A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from

Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the

Beam." ***

________________________________



Can any members of the group give us other references

to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA

literature?



There was one weekly meeting in early AA in South

Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's

book during their meetings, and insisted that

everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar

with that book.

________________________________



*** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox



(http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html)



Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A

directional beam is produced to guide the pilot to his destination,

and as long as he keeps on this beam he knows that he is safe, even if

he cannot see around him for fog, or get his bearings in any other

way.

As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger,

and he immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more.

Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam

upon which to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have

peace of mind and some sense of the Presence of God you are on the

beam, and you are safe, even if outer things seem to be confused or

even very dark; but as soon as you get off the beam you are in danger.

You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or

jealous or frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises

you should immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God

in thought, claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and

Intelligence are with you, and that the promises in the Bible are true

today.

If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions

and your own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the

beam and you will reach port in safety.

Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you.













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3338 trixiebellaa
The "heavy sedative" in Bill''s story (BB p. 7) The "heavy sedative" in Bill''s story (BB p. 7) 4/16/2006 11:18:00 AM


Hi history lovers, can anyone tell us what was

the "heavy sedative" that was prescribed to Bill

on page 7 in the Big Book where he said:



"Next day found me drinking both gin and sedative.

This combination soon landed me on the rocks."



Thanks for you help in this matter.


0 -1 0 0
3339 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Bill W.''s talk at Rockland State Hospital Bill W.''s talk at Rockland State Hospital 4/16/2006 8:36:00 AM


As I recall (though 30 years is a long time),

there was a copy of that presentation in the

AA archives. Someone at GSO may be able to

speak to that.



ernie kurtz

__________________________



bludahlia2003 wrote:



> Anyone know where I might find information about

> the presentation that Bill W gave to the Board

> Meeting at Rockland State Hospital (now known as

> Rockland Psychiatric Center) in 1939?


0 -1 0 0
3340 Mel Barger
Re: Emmet Fox Emmet Fox 4/16/2006 5:44:00 PM


Hi Matt,

I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said

they even attended his lectures in New York in the

1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the

Mount.



I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in

February, 1951, and have read it ever since.



Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even

told of reading it while he was still getting well

from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow

to hold it steady!



I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against

literature that isn't conference-approved has

eliminated this any several other good books from

most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and

sometimes mention it in talks.



Mel Barger



___________________________



Note from the moderator:



See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at

http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html


0 -1 0 0
3341 Robert Stonebraker
Emmet Fox mentioned by name in the Big Book Emmet Fox mentioned by name in the Big Book 4/16/2006 7:11:00 PM


Dr. Earl Marsh, in his Big Book story "Physician

Heal Thyself," mentions Emmet Fox's then, and

still, popular book "SERMON ON THE MOUNT."



See page 348 of the third edition of the Big Book.



Bob S., from Indiana


0 -1 0 0
3342 Ricky Holcomb
Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online Joe and Charlie tapes online 4/13/2006 8:30:00 AM


I agree, I know Joe personally and have never

viewed him as a person who is trying to get

anybody to believe that the success rate in AA

was any different than now--what I have learned

from him is that he feels strongly about trying

to get alcoholics to really try the steps and

have a life changing experience rather than just

attending meetings and trying to not drink.



Ricky H.

________________________________



Doug B." <dougb@aahistory.com> wrote:



Billy-Bob and Jim,



The Joe and Charlie Big Book studies that I have attended

in the past were nothing like you suggested in your response.



They were keeping it very simple and didn't seem to be on

any crusade except that of actually having you read the book

for yourself.



Then again, I haven't been to one in ten years..maybe their

message has changed?



Doug B.

Riverside, CA

Ricky Holcomb



---------------------------------

Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!

Messenger with Voice.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3343 ArtSheehan
RE: The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan''s Book In Regard To Early AA''s Success The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan''s Book In Regard To Early AA''s Success 4/13/2006 1:20:00 PM


Ooops! I attached the wrong reply to Billy Bob's posting. Here's the

correction. I exchanged the info below with Billy Bob in a separate

email and would like to offer it for consideration:



Hi Billy Bob



I have Hartigan’s book. The portion you emphasize illustrates the

matter of context I tried to address. Hartigan actually supports the

claim that 50% initially made it yet seems to try to portray a doom

and gloom scenario for early 1939. Hartigan should also have cited

Bill W’s comments on the matter in 1955 in the 2nd edition Big Book.



29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the 1st edition Big

Book. 22 of them were dropped in the 2nd edition. There is a myth in

AA that the 22 stories were removed because the members had returned

to drinking. It’s not true. In the introduction to the personal

stories in the 2nd edition Big Book Bill W wrote:



“When first published in 1939, this book carried 29 stories about

alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with the greatest number

of readers, the new 2nd Edition (1955) carries a considerably enlarged

story section, as above described. Concerning the original 29 case

histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that 22

have apparently made full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these, 15

have remained completely sober for an average of 17 years each,

according to our best knowledge and belief.”



In the introduction to the “Pioneers of AA Section” in the 2nd edition

Bill W went on to write:



“Dr Bob and the 12 men and women who here tell their stories were

among the early members of AA’s first groups. Though 3 have passed

away of natural causes, all have maintained complete sobriety for

periods ranging from 15 to 19 years as of this date 1955. Today,

hundreds of additional AA members can be found who have had no relapse

for at least 15 years. All of these then are the pioneers of AA. They

bear witness that release from alcoholism can really be permanent.”



From the figures in Bill W’s introduction, approximately 75% of the

early members who had their stories in the 1st edition Big Book were

sober as of AA’s 20th anniversary (1955). Even if half didn’t make it,

as asserted by Hartigan, the percentage that did is still consistent

with early claims of a 50% success rate.



The 1st edition story authors is the only fully qualified population

that demonstrates the claims that 50% made it and another 25% sobered

up again after returning to drinking.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

backtobasicsbillybob

Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:51 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote from Francis Hartigan's

Book In Regard To Early AA's Success



"We have to wonder why both the Wilson's and the Smiths did not simply



give up. Today the nations best treatment centers report success rates



ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent. During Bill's stay in Akron, he



and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 percent, and among



the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were able to maintain

consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big Book, published in

1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many of AA's earliest

members. Some years later, Bill made notations in the first copy of

the book to come off the press, indicating which of the individuals

portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 percent had not."



Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Pages 91-92

















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3344 ArtSheehan
RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 4/13/2006 1:17:00 PM


I exchanged the info below with Billy Bob in a separate email and

would like to offer it for consideration:



Hi Billy Bob



I have Hartigan’s book. The portion you emphasize illustrates the

matter of context I tried to address. Hartigan actually supports the

claim that 50% initially made it yet seems to try to portray a doom

and gloom scenario for early 1939. Hartigan should also have cited

Bill W’s comments on the matter in 1955 in the 2nd edition Big Book.



29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the 1st edition Big

Book. 22 of them were dropped in the 2nd edition. There is a myth in

AA that the 22 stories were removed because the members had returned

to drinking. It’s not true. In the introduction to the personal

stories in the 2nd edition Big Book Bill W wrote:



“When first published in 1939, this book carried 29 stories about

alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with the greatest number

of readers, the new 2nd Edition (1955) carries a considerably enlarged

story section, as above described. Concerning the original 29 case

histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that 22

have apparently made full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these, 15

have remained completely sober for an average of 17 years each,

according to our best knowledge and belief.”



In the introduction to the “Pioneers of AA Section” in the 2nd edition

Bill W went on to write:



“Dr Bob and the 12 men and women who here tell their stories were

among the early members of AA’s first groups. Though 3 have passed

away of natural causes, all have maintained complete sobriety for

periods ranging from 15 to 19 years as of this date 1955. Today,

hundreds of additional AA members can be found who have had no relapse

for at least 15 years. All of these then are the pioneers of AA. They

bear witness that release from alcoholism can really be permanent.”



From the figures in Bill W’s introduction, approximately 75% of the

early members who had their stories in the 1st edition Big Book were

sober as of AA’s 20th anniversary (1955). Even if half didn’t make it,

as asserted by Hartigan, the percentage that did is still consistent

with early claims of a 50% success rate.



The 1st edition story authors is the only fully qualified population

that demonstrates the claims that 50% made it and another 25% sobered

up again after returning to drinking.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

backtobasicsbillybob

Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:18 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial

Service, Nov. 15th, 1952



"You haven't any conception these days of how much failure we had. How



you had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take



the bait. Yes, the discouragement's were very great but some did stay

sober and some very tough ones at that."





Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street

Club in New York City, New York.



To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob





Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3345 michael oates
Re: Use of Dash in First Step Use of Dash in First Step 4/13/2006 6:42:00 PM


Messages from Michael Oates, George Brown,

Tom E., and Rick Tompkins

______________________________



From: michael oates <moates57@yahoo.com>

(moates57 at yahoo.com)



A dash is an extra long comma used to hold the pause

before adding the new phrase or thought. That being

said maybe Bill really wanted us to think about the

preceding phrase before tackling the prase that

follows the dash. It seems that too many of us are

dealing with unmanageability rather than alcoholism a

dash is not an arrow.

______________________________



From: george brown <gbaa487@yahoo.com>

(gbaa487 at yahoo.com)



i might as well add to this discussion. the use of a

dash is to "emphasize and/or explain the main clause."

so. in this case it is explaining and emphasizing the

fact that we are "powerless over alcohol."



to my understanding it is explaining that when

we are powerless our lives become unmanageable;

it is also emphasizing that fact.

______________________________



From: Tom E. <ny-aa@att.net>

(ny-aa at att.net)



Personally, I consider the dash--typists

sometimes called it a double-dash--to be

significant in Step 1.



IT IS, "1) We admitted we were powerless over

alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable."



NOT, "1) We admitted we were powerless over

alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable."



NOT, "1) We admitted we were powerless over

alcohol because our lives had become unmanageable."



NOT, "1) We admitted we were powerless over

alcohol, therefore our lives had become unmanageable."



On the other hand, we are discussing the punctuation

"Bill chose" without asking who actually chose the

punctuation. As historians, we need to look further.

What was on his yellow pad when he dictated it to

Ruth Hock? Is that available to researchers? Was

Bill in the habit of dictating every comma, period,

dash, and paragraph break or did he just talk and

leave it to Ruth to get something meaningful out of

whatever he said? I believe it was the latter. So,

to what extent did Bill adjust what Ruth typed

to make punctuation and other details exactly the

way he wanted?



Even the draft that was distributed was the result

of much debate and compromise. We can't say that

every jot and tittle is the Revealed Word of Bill.

Actually, part of the strength of the A.A. Big Book

is that it is a consensus document. Every member

at the time and some outside friends had a say in

what was in the book.



Tom E

Wappingers Falls, NY

______________________________



From: ricktompkins@comcast.net

(ricktompkins at comcast.net)



Hi Art, we are in esoteric and mystical hot water,

obviously...



The colon use is correct in your posting; the colon

also could work in the dash-ing of Step One, as

could i.e. or e.g. The 1930s readers probably could

have handled any of them and future generations

(i.e. us) would have analyzed it as has gone on in

the past few posts here.



The dash separating the two phrases in Step One

is an esoteric emphasis, dontcha think? Perhaps the

original linotype operators enjoyed its use, too.



Hearing the step read as a part of "How It Works"

the dash sounds like a simple comma--thankfully

no one comes out and says "dash." Reading the text,

I always felt that the dash added real impact from

the first time I viewed it, and that impact remains

powerful to me today.



Two distinct concepts in Step One, placed in the

same sentence to drive home the idea that the latter

results from the former. Imagine that!



Esoterically, to me the two phrases work in reverse

sequence, too. I tell new prospects to consider

the dash as an equal sign, and the distributive

math principle kicks in as reinforcement. No balance

beam or seesaw analysis, please, it might bring on

a mysticism angle that's absent from this Step.



Cheers to all, hope a 2006 Springtime brings great

new discoveries to us!



Rick, Illinois


0 -1 0 0
3346 timderan
Monroe, Michigan Monroe, Michigan 4/17/2006 3:56:00 AM


Over the last few years there has been an off again and on again effort to

find out the history of AA in Monroe, Michigan. From what we can tell no

one has ever actually written down anything on it. We have some names and

an idea of when and where the first meetings were held. But, most of that

is sketchy.







It would be appreciated if anyone has any information that might be helpful

to forward it to me or post it on this message board.







Your help is greatly appreciated.







tmd







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3347 Tom Hickcox
Re: Emmet Fox Emmet Fox 4/17/2006 10:14:00 PM


At 09:02 4/16/2006 , you wrote:



>When/where I got sober (as they say <GRIN>), all of these were still being

>suggested as essential reading (as well as the standard AA literature) Big

>Book and the 12x12, etc, the little Black Book, Red Book and Green Book, and

>Living Sober. By sponsors and my home group.



Would these books be Richmond Walker's 24 Hours a Day, Webster's Little Red

Book and Stools and Bottles? Big Book, 12x12, and Living Sober are

self-explanatory.



My wife spent her first 18y in NYC and she says they gave out Living Sober

to new people. I think that is a great idea. I could pick it up when I

was new and read a few pages and was unable to do the same with the Big Book.



Tommy H





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3348 Lee Nickerson
Re: Emmet Fox Emmet Fox 4/17/2006 11:28:00 PM


I surely agree. I was fortunate to be Maine's Archivist for eight

years and by what seemed necessity, I began to do the unthinkable -

read non-conference approved literature. It enhanced my sobriety and

allowed me to do my service job in a much more informative and

interesting way. I picked up the habit and have been at it ever

since. I just finished a book called Drinking: A Love Story by

Caroline Knapp - one of the best personal stories I have read in a

long time. As far as AA history goes; Not God, Sister Ignatia:The

Angel Of AA, Grateful to Have Been There and so many others have

made my journey much more enlightened and joyful. Many of the books

I have read were recommended by Frank M. the late alcoholic

archivist of GSO. He was a truly sweet gentleman and I miss him to

this day.

lee





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mel Barger" <melb@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Matt,

> I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said

> they even attended his lectures in New York in the

> 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the

> Mount.

>

> I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in

> February, 1951, and have read it ever since.

>

> Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even

> told of reading it while he was still getting well

> from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow

> to hold it steady!

>

> I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against

> literature that isn't conference-approved has

> eliminated this any several other good books from

> most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and

> sometimes mention it in talks.

>

> Mel Barger

>

> ___________________________

>

> Note from the moderator:

>

> See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at

> http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html

>


0 -1 0 0
3349 Billy-Bob
Emmet Fox, black and red and green books, etc. Emmet Fox, black and red and green books, etc. 4/17/2006 11:50:00 PM


From Billy-Bob, Jon Markle, Robert Stonebraker,

Lynn Sawyer, and Glenn C.

______________________________



From: Billy-Bob <backtobasicsbillybob@yahoo.com>

(backtobasicsbillybob at yahoo.com)



When I first came to AA in 1985 I was told by my

temporary sponsor to get a copy of the Little Red

Book, Stools And Bottles, The 24 Hour A Day Book,

The Big Book and the 12 &12.



I read Emmet Fox's version of the Sermon On The

Mount, but I like the version that Jesus wrote

better. (lol)



Billy-Bob

______________________________



Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>

(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net) wrote:



When/where I got sober (as they say <GRIN>), all

of these were still being suggested as essential

reading (as well as the standard AA literature) Big

Book and the 12x12, etc, the little Black Book,

Red Book and Green Book, and Living Sober. By

sponsors and my home group.



One of the things I find appalling in too many meetings

today is the lack of suggestions that newcomers read

the literature. We always gave out a copy of "Living

Sober" to all newcomers, whether or not they came

back. And sponsors always made sure their sponsees

had the Big Book and a copy of the 12x12, at the

very least.



Jon Markle

Raleigh

______________________________



From: Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>

(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)



Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com) wrote:



Dr. Earl Marsh, in his Big Book story "Physician

Heal Thyself," mentions Emmet Fox's then, and

still, popular book "SERMON ON THE MOUNT."

See page 348 of the third edition of the Big Book.



Dear Bob,

Thanks for the tip! I FOUND IT!! My 3rd Edition

is the one I always bring to BB studies--some

of the pages are coming out, and it's all

highlighted up, but I love it just the same.

Also have a 4th Edition, hard cover, that,

admittedly, hasn't seen much (read:enough)

wear, yet.



Arthur and others,



Thanks so much for all the detail about Emmet

Fox and his writings and teachings. I've not

heard of the Green Book, but the others, I have.

I think I'm gonna look for the Little Red Book

and Emmet Fox's book, at my local used book

store, soon.



I used to read from the Upper Room. Think I

got it from my Dad, who was a Methodist.

I think it still exists today.



Happy sobriety,

Lynn from Sacramento, CA

______________________________



From the moderator:



"Twenty-Four Hours a Day" was written by AA member

Richmond Walker, who got sober in Boston in 1943,

and later moved to Daytona Beach, Florida. His

book was sponsored by the Daytona Beach AA group.

See http://hindsfoot.org/RWfla1.html and

http://hindsfoot.org/rwpix1.html. It and the Big

Book were the two most important books in early

AA for many years. It is still read from in numerous

AA meetings.



"The Little Red Book" and "Stools and Bottles"

(which had a green cover) were written by AA member

Ed Webster and sponsored by the Nicollet Group in

Minneapolis, Minnesota.



See http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html and

http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html.



When Ed Webster wrote "The Little Red Book," he

continually consulted with Dr. Bob, who put many

notes on the manuscript suggesting additions and

changes. This is our best guide as to the way

Dr. Bob understood the twelve steps. Dr. Bob sent

copies of this all over the world, from Canada to

Florida, and also made sure that the New York

AA office had copies available for sale until

the time he died in 1950.



The understood principle in early AA was that

any work which had been published under the

sponsorship of one AA group, could be read from

and sold to their members by any other AA group

which wished to do so, without need of any further

discussion.



Issues like this in AA have always been decided

by precedent (just as in English Common Law and

in modern American law) and not by a small group of

people deciding to pass a group of rules. So if

you look at AA in the 1930's, 40's, 50's, and

60's, and put together a list of books that were

read by AA groups, then on the grounds of precedent

alone, these books are can be read by modern AA

groups and sold by modern intergroups without

even any need of discussion. They are automatically

considered perfectly O.K.



The AA that saves us is the AA of the 1930's,

40's, 50's, and 60's, not some brainstorm on the

part of a small group of modern delegates who come

up with some theory and decide to pass rules. We

are saved by doing what the good old timers did,

not by following a set of mechanical and legalistic

rules.



We don't look at lists of rulings passed by

conferences and assemblies to find out what good

AA is, we read AA history to discover what really

good AA is.



"My story is my message" means that the story of

early AA is its crucial message, people in the early

days witnessing to what gave them sobriety and

real serenity of life. When we listen to them,

and try to do what they said they did (including

read the books which they said they read), we will

find that kind of sobriety and serenity ourselves.



Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

glennccc@sbcglobal.net

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)


0 -1 0 0
3350 Bent Christensen
93% recovery rate in Cleveland 93% recovery rate in Cleveland 4/16/2006 10:00:00 AM


Hi there



Does anyone know which records Clarence is referring to when he make

the statement about the recovery rate in Dr. Bob and the Good

Oldtimers, at page 261?



Thanks

Bent


0 -1 0 0
3351 jlobdell54
One-Day History & Archives Gathering June 24 2006 Lebanon PA One-Day History & Archives Gathering June 24 2006 Lebanon PA 4/16/2006 2:41:00 PM


The Gathering will be held at St Cecilia's Social Hall 750 State Drive

Lebanon PA registration at 8-9 am invited speakers oldtimers Clyde B

(6/20/1946) and Chet H (4/4/1949), possibly one or two others over 50

years, plus Glenn C (Moderator of AAHL and author of several books on

AA History), Mitch K (author of HOW IT WORKED and organizer of the

Clarence S Archive at Brown), with a panel on the GSO Proposed 1955-

2000 History, and a panel on Writing Local History: the Founders of AA

in Eastern PA. Exhibits from several archives. Those interested may

contactjaredlobdell@comcast.net for directions.


0 -1 0 0
3352 Robert Stonebraker
Non-Conference approved literature Non-Conference approved literature 4/18/2006 8:42:00 PM


Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN, spends the first two Tuesdays

studying AA history - we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and sometimes A

HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's Home. We make great effort to

make these 90 minute sessions interesting. I have learned lot's of

interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher, Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung,

Rev Shoemaker, Clarence Snyder and all the rest of those early historical

participants from non-conference approved materials. Here are listed a few

of our current book collection:



* EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B.

* CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows

* DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson, edited by Ellie Van V.

* GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing

* HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder, By Mitchell K.

* SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Mary C. Darrah

* NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Ernest Kurtz

* BILLW, by Robert Thomsen



Here are a few other non-AA history books we use for reference because they

were often read by early AA members:



* SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox

* AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen

* THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond



But naturally our main source of historical information come from the

Conference approved books from GSO .



Bob S.



????????????????????????????





-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Lee Nickerson

Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:28 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Emmet Fox



I surely agree. I was fortunate to be Maine's Archivist for eight

years and by what seemed necessity, I began to do the unthinkable -

read non-conference approved literature. It enhanced my sobriety and

allowed me to do my service job in a much more informative and

interesting way. I picked up the habit and have been at it ever

since. I just finished a book called Drinking: A Love Story by

Caroline Knapp - one of the best personal stories I have read in a

long time. As far as AA history goes; Not God, Sister Ignatia:The

Angel Of AA, Grateful to Have Been There and so many others have

made my journey much more enlightened and joyful. Many of the books

I have read were recommended by Frank M. the late alcoholic

archivist of GSO. He was a truly sweet gentleman and I miss him to

this day.

lee





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mel Barger" <melb@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Matt,

> I asked Bill Wilson about Emmet Fox and he said

> they even attended his lectures in New York in the

> 1930s. He also said they read The Sermon on the

> Mount.

>

> I found my own copy of it in Pontiac, Michigan, in

> February, 1951, and have read it ever since.

>

> Mike E., the second member of AA in Detroit, even

> told of reading it while he was still getting well

> from his last drunk; he had to rest it on pillow

> to hold it steady!

>

> I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against

> literature that isn't conference-approved has

> eliminated this any several other good books from

> most meetings. I recommend it whenever I can and

> sometimes mention it in talks.

>

> Mel Barger

>

> ___________________________

>

> Note from the moderator:

>

> See Mel's little article on Emmet Fox at

> http://hindsfoot.org/Fox1.html

>





















Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3353 Mitchell K.
RE: quote from Bill re: the stories quote from Bill re: the stories 4/19/2006 7:53:00 AM


On January 23, 1955 Bill wrote Clarence about the

stories being changed in the 2nd edition. Here are

some excerpts:



"Now, another matter. We are making a re-do of the

story section of the A.A. book. As you know, the old

stories were very low bottom. We then lacked the

experience we now have, and we lacked the great

variety of cases which A.A. today affords. So among

practically all consulted, it seems desirable to

broaden and deepen the story section of the book to

bring it in line with present-day membership and

experience. No change in the text, of course.



"The plan for the new story section runs like this:

instead of twenty-eight stories, there will be

thirty-seven. Headed by Doc Smith, they will be

divided into three groups of twelve stories each - the

pioneers, the high bottom and the low bottom.



"The larger part of the old stories will be dropped

from the book, in fact, all the New York ones."



(a couple of paragraphs down)



"Personally, I hated to take out so many of the old

stories. But my reasons were only sentimental, they

didn't make sense. The object of the story section is

to appeal to as many kinds of drunks as possible and

I'm sure that we shall now have a much bigger spread.

I hope and believe you will like the result when you

see it."



I think that might clear up why stories were dropped

and/or added. Another line I found interesting was:

"As you know, maybe one-half of today's incoming

membership is composed of milder potential

alcoholics..." Even in 1955 Bill recognized that many

wandering through the doors of AA weren't really

alcoholics YET. It is the same today and those who

come to explore or test the waters maybe shouldn't be

counted in all these skewed statistics. Too bad Bill

didn't address those few who did choose to resume

their drinking careers but I guess he felt that

Clarence already knew who they were.











--- ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:



> Ooops! I attached the wrong reply to Billy Bob's

> posting. Here's the

> correction. I exchanged the info below with Billy

> Bob in a separate

> email and would like to offer it for consideration:

>

> Hi Billy Bob

>

> I have Hartigan’s book. The portion you emphasize

> illustrates the

> matter of context I tried to address. Hartigan

> actually supports the

> claim that 50% initially made it yet seems to try to

> portray a doom

> and gloom scenario for early 1939. Hartigan should

> also have cited

> Bill W’s comments on the matter in 1955 in the 2nd

> edition Big Book.

>

> 29 stories were included in the 1st printing of the

> 1st edition Big

> Book. 22 of them were dropped in the 2nd edition.

> There is a myth in

> AA that the 22 stories were removed because the

> members had returned

> to drinking. It’s not true. In the introduction to

> the personal

> stories in the 2nd edition Big Book Bill W wrote:

>

> “When first published in 1939, this book carried 29

> stories about

> alcoholics. To secure maximum identification with

> the greatest number

> of readers, the new 2nd Edition (1955) carries a

> considerably enlarged

> story section, as above described. Concerning the

> original 29 case

> histories, it is a deep satisfaction to record, as

> of 1955, that 22

> have apparently made full recovery from their

> alcoholism. Of these, 15

> have remained completely sober for an average of 17

> years each,

> according to our best knowledge and belief.”

>

> In the introduction to the “Pioneers of AA Section”

> in the 2nd edition

> Bill W went on to write:

>

> “Dr Bob and the 12 men and women who here tell their

> stories were

> among the early members of AA’s first groups. Though

> 3 have passed

> away of natural causes, all have maintained complete

> sobriety for

> periods ranging from 15 to 19 years as of this date

> 1955. Today,

> hundreds of additional AA members can be found who

> have had no relapse

> for at least 15 years. All of these then are the

> pioneers of AA. They

> bear witness that release from alcoholism can really

> be permanent.”

>

> From the figures in Bill W’s introduction,

> approximately 75% of the

> early members who had their stories in the 1st

> edition Big Book were

> sober as of AA’s 20th anniversary (1955). Even if

> half didn’t make it,

> as asserted by Hartigan, the percentage that did is

> still consistent

> with early claims of a 50% success rate.

>

> The 1st edition story authors is the only fully

> qualified population

> that demonstrates the claims that 50% made it and

> another 25% sobered

> up again after returning to drinking.

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> Of

> backtobasicsbillybob

> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:51 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote from

> Francis Hartigan's

> Book In Regard To Early AA's Success

>

> "We have to wonder why both the Wilson's and the

> Smiths did not simply

>

> give up. Today the nations best treatment centers

> report success rates

>

> ranging from 25 percent to 50 percent. During Bill's

> stay in Akron, he

>

> and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5

> percent, and among

>

> the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were

> able to maintain

> consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big

> Book, published in

> 1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many

> of AA's earliest

> members. Some years later, Bill made notations in

> the first copy of

> the book to come off the press, indicating which of

> the individuals

> portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50

> percent had not."

>

> Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Pages 91-92

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3354 rrecovery2002
Books Early AA''s Read Books Early AA''s Read 4/18/2006 6:25:00 PM


You all might be surprised how easy it is to borrow copies of the

Oxford Group books and other books early AAs read. My library

routinely interloans copies of all sorts of material for me---from

university libraries etc. Just ask your reference desk. Some libraries

may charge you the cost of postage.



Just on a lark one day, I asked if they could get me a copy of

V.C.Kitchen's I Was a Pagan and within a week I was reading a first

edition copy. Off the top of my head, I have read early editions of

Charles Clapp's books, Peabody's Common Sense of Drinking, Cecil Rose's

When a Man Listens and others



Bob


0 -1 0 0
3355 Steve Miller
Conference approved literature... Conference approved literature... 4/16/2006 12:47:00 PM


Re: Conference approved literature...



Is there any reference within conference approved

literature or AA World Services literature about

the common group conscience guideline of restricting

literature in meetings to only "conference approved

literature"?



This request is of course to assist in settling

the often contentious question between newcomers

who have not previously come up against the issue

and the rest of us.



The reflections of this group will be appreciated.



Thanks

Steve M.

Central Oregon



______________________________



From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana)



CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE



A statement taken from service material released

by the GSO in New York. From 1951 on, the Trustees

Literature Committee, the Conference Literature

Committee, and the participants in the General

Service Conferences have overseen the content of

AA literature which was published by the AA

General Service Office.



Please note the second paragraph in this

statement: telling people that they CANNOT read

"non-conference-approved" literature violates

basic AA policies.



--------------------------------

"The term 'Conference-approved' describes written

or audiovisual material approved by the Conference

for publication by GSO. This process assures that

everything in such literature is in accord with AA

principles. Conference-approved material always deals

with the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous

or with information about the AA Fellowship."



"The term has no relation to material not published

by GSO. It does not imply Conference disapproval

of other material about AA. A great deal of

literature helpful to alcoholics is published by

others, and AA does not try to tell any individual

member what he or she may or may not read."



"Conference approval assures us that a piece of

literature represents solid AA experience. Any

Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes

through a lengthy and painstaking process, during

which a variety of AAs from all over the United

States and Canada read and express opinions at

every stage of production."

--------------------------------



Source:

http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html

______________________________



On November 11, 1944, Bobby Burger, the secretary

at the Alcoholic Foundation in New York (what is

today called the General Service Office) wrote

a letter to Barry Collins, who had helped Ed

Webster in assembling and publishing the Little

Red Book:



--------------------------------

"Dear Barry,

. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet [a.k.a.

the Detroit Pamphlet or Table Mate] and the new

Cleveland "Sponsorship" pamphlet and a host of

others are all local projects, as is Nicollette's

"An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps" [the

Little Red Book]. We do not actually approve or

disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean

that the Foundation feels that each Group is

entitled to write up its own "can opener" and

let it stand on its merits. All of them have good

points and very few have caused any controversy.

But as in all things of a local nature, we keep

hands off, either pro or con. I think there must

be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used

and I've yet to see one that hasn't some good

points. I think it is up to each individual Group

whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets

from the Group that puts them out.

Sincerely, Bobby

(Margaret R. Burger)"

--------------------------------



Bill Wilson felt the same way. In November 1950,

he wrote a note to Barry Collins about The Little

Red Book making the same basic point, only even

more strongly. Such locally sponsored works

"fill a definite need" and their "usefulness

is unquestioned." Most importantly of all, Bill

went on to say in that letter: "Here at the

Foundation we are not policemen; we're a service

and AAs are free to read any book they choose."



As quoted in Bill Pittman's Foreword to The

Little Red Book: An Interpretation of the Twelve

Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program,

50th Anniversary Edition (Center City MN: Hazelden,

1996), pp. xvi-xvii.



Again, please note that people who try to set

themselves up as "AA policemen," to use Bill

Wilson's own phrase, where these self-appointed

policemen start telling other AA members and

AA groups what they "will and will not PERMIT

them to read," go against the most basic AA

principles and long-established official

policies.



Source:

http://hindsfoot.org/Nread2.html

______________________________



An AA group can of course take a group conscience

and vote on what things they will read at that

particular meeting. You can't read everything.

And if an individual AA group votes that it wants

to restrict itself to reading only one particular

book (or whatever) and studying that carefully,

then of course that group has the right to do that.

It can also vote later on to shift to something

else and start reading that instead. Each group

is totally autonomous. And as it says in the

12 & 12, one of the most fundamental AA rights

of all is "the right of a group to be wrong"!

______________________________



See also:

http://hindsfoot.org/nread1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Nread2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Nread3.html


0 -1 0 0
3356 Lynn Sawyer
Re: Re: Emmet Fox Emmet Fox 4/19/2006 2:50:00 AM


Dear Lee and others:

Re: Non-Conference Approved Literature

I have also enjoyed much of the same. Try one: "The Spirituality of

Imperfection", is quite interesting.

Don't forget that Alanon has lots of good literature, too! (Yes, we can talk

about Alanon, it's mentioned in the Big Book!)

Lynn from Sacramento, CA


0 -1 0 0
3357 Billy-Bob
Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland 93% recovery rate in Cleveland 4/19/2006 10:13:00 AM


Dick B. claims to have those records in his archives. This was in Cleaveland

before the 3rd tradition was established. Back then AA groups could screen and

cherry pick their members rather than having to accept anyone how walked through

the door seeking help.



Billy-Bob



Bent Christensen <bent_christensen5@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi there



Does anyone know which records Clarence is referring to when he make

the statement about the recovery rate in Dr. Bob and the Good

Oldtimers, at page 261?



Thanks

Bent

















---------------------------------

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---------------------------------











"The way our "worthy" alcoholics have sometimes tried to judge the "less worthy"

is, as we look back on it, rather comical. Imagine, if you can one alcoholic

judging another!"

Bill Wilson, Who Is A Member Of Alcoholics Anonymous?, AA Grapevine 1946



---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3358 Rob White
recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? 4/14/2006 9:03:00 PM


Hazelden sells a set of cd's with Lois being interviewed several years before

she died.



"An intimate conversation with Lois Wilson"



I think Stepping Stones may have it as well.



They are wonderful recording and have alot of history in them from "the first

person" point of view.



published by

Bernbil Productions PO box 1136 Little River, SC 29566



Rob White

Baltimore



Robert White

UMB-Psychiatry

410-328-8549

>>> mcfrace1@minn.net 04/11/06 8:56 AM >>>

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:19:54 -0700

From: "Mike Aycock" <mike_ayc@comcast.net>

Subject: Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking?



I thought that someone else would mention this.



There is an organization in Minnesota that does an great amount of AA

& Al-Anon taping that has several different recordings of Lois W.



http://www.gstl.org/

Go to their site map and scroll down to Al-Anon history to start.

(Gopher State Tape Library, established 1974).



Ken R.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
3359 bikergaryg@aol.com
57 years sober another major loss to the fellowship 57 years sober another major loss to the fellowship 4/16/2006 10:23:00 AM


This was the fellow who had 57 years sobriety at the convention on Saturday

night. He was in a wheelchair and gave away the Big Books to the newcomers.

RIP



CURRAN, ROGER GERVASE

Age 86 yrs. passed away on Sunday April 9, 2006 at his home in Audubon, NJ.

He is predeceased by his wife Mary J. (nee Doneghy) who died in January 2006.

Survived by his daughter Mary Ann Curran-Bailey of Williamstown and 3

grandchildren Gary Savvas, Jr. of Washington Twp, Nicole Savvas of Cherry Hill

and

Danielle Savvas of Parsippany.

A retired Sr. Claims Examiner, Mr. Curran was employed by Keystone Insurance

Co. in Haddon Heights. He served on the USS Boise Naval carrier, Asiatic

Fleet, during WWII. An advocate for older workers rights, Roger was the founder

of The Golden Ax Club. He served on the Audubon Celebration Committee with

his wife Mary and was a Friend of Bill W's since 1949.

Relatives and friends are invited to attend the visitation on Thursday from

12:00 – 1:00PM at the HENRY FUNERAL HOME, 152 W. Atlantic Ave., Audubon where

services will follow at 1PM. Interment will be private at the convenience of

the family.

In lieu of flowers, contributions in his memory may be made to St. James

Glory To God Fund, 400 Columbia Ave., Pitman, NJ 08071













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3360 Billy-Bob
Re: Joe and Charlie tapes online Joe and Charlie tapes online 4/17/2006 11:48:00 PM


Joe and Charlie talk about the decline of the AA

sucess rate on their tapes and advocate working

the AA program as outlined by the Big Book as

a remedy or a way to save AA. All you have to

do listen to their tapes and you will hear their

pitch.



Billy-Bob


0 -1 0 0
3361 Gene
Sat. June 3, ''06 annual picnic at Stepping Stones Sat. June 3, ''06 annual picnic at Stepping Stones 4/18/2006 3:13:00 PM


Mark your calenders: Saturday, June 3, 2006 is the annual picnic at Stepping

Stones.

Every year Bill and Lois would host a picnic on the grounds of Stepping

Stones..

I have gone for the past 6 years and have had a wonderful

time...meeting people from all over the world...It's so nice to have

this treasure in my own backyard



http://www.steppingstones.org



The first Saturday in June is the date...

Alanon, Alateen and AA speakers at an open meeting on the lawn under

the shade of flowering trees...

soft drinks (Duh...)are provided,

and bring your picnic lunch..tour the home...see the historic and

wonderful things on the upstairs walls...

visit "Wit's end" where Bill wrote so much of the traditions...and see

the original Man on the Bed..or AA #3...

You can visit Steppingstones site or email me for directions from the

highway...

Gene in Westchester


0 -1 0 0
3362 Glenn Chesnut
Hazelden Foundation and book publishing Hazelden Foundation and book publishing 4/19/2006 2:47:00 PM


I want to post something on this subject because

of all the confusion I see on this matter.



There is at present a famous treatment center

called Hazelden in the United States, which also

publishes books on a variety of treatment oriented

issues. It is a huge operation today, with an

enormous budget.



The Hazelden Foundation was started in 1949.

It began as a small and simple alcoholism treatment

program operating out of a Minnesota farmhouse

(photo at http://hindsfoot.org/RWcvPhot.html)

which was run by AA members. The farmer who

originally owned the farm named it "Hazelden Farm"

after his wife who was named Hazel.



As William L. White notes in "Slaying the Dragon:

The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery

in America," pp. 201-2 and 207-8, the psychiatrists

and psychotherapists did not really take over the

Hazelden operation until later, in the 1960's --

their people basically won control of its

administration in 1966 -- at which point their

program began referring to "chemical dependency"

and treating alcoholism and drug addiction as simply

versions of the same addictive tendency (which could

be treated in the same group setting by identical

methods), and so on, in ways that many A.A.

old-timers object to strongly.



We need to talk about how this all fits in with

some of the major early AA books which were written

and used by the AA old timers.



The four most published AA authors are Bill Wilson,

Richmond Walker, Ed Webster, and Ralph Pfau. Bill

Wilson's writings were published by the central AA

headquarters in New York City and still are.



The major religious denominations all have their

own publishing houses (Fortress for the Lutherans,

Westminster for the Presbyterians, Abingdon for

the Methodists, various Roman Catholic presses at

places like Notre Dame University and Loyola

University and so on). But early AA did not have

the money to set up an AA publishing house, and

still does not have that kind of money. In fact,

it might possibly violate the Twelve Traditions

to set one up.



As a result, the other three major AA authors

began by publishing their books themselves.



Early AA member Richmond Walker in Daytona

Beach, Florida, had "Twenty Four Hours a Day"

printed on the little printing press in the

county courthouse, and then distributed them

from his basement.



Early AA member Ed Webster in Minneapolis

("The Little Red Book" and the green covered

"Stools and Bottles") teamed up with fellow AA

member Barry Collins to publish these books as

the "Coll-Webb Publishing Company," which just

meant the two of them paying for the printing

themselves and distributing the books

themselves.



Early AA member Ralph Pfau in Indianapolis

("Father John Doe" and the Golden Books) likewise

printed his books himself. He called his little

self-publishing operation SMT Guild. "SMT"

stood for Society of Matt Talbot. Father Ralph

had three nuns who served as his secretaries,

and they took care of taking orders and

distributing the books.



Things went fine (in all three cases) for a

number of years.



But Richmond Walker finally got too old to keep

it up all by himself, so in 1954 Patrick Butler

at Hazelden volunteered to take over printing

and distributing the books, to make sure that

they would still be available to AA members.

Rich had had nothing to do with Hazelden at all.

He had never visited there. In 1954, Hazelden

was still basically just a big farmhouse, and

it had not yet turned into a giant enterprise

with large numbers of psychiatrists and

psychotherapists on its staff.



After Ed Webster's death, his widow likewise

arranged with Hazelden to take over the publi-

cation of Ed's books.



After Father Ralph Pfau's death, his niece

tried to keep on printing and distributing the

Golden Books herself, but after a number of

years, it finally got to be too much for her,

and so she likewise made an arrangement with

Hazelden to take over the job.



The people at Hazelden back in those days

deserve a lot of credit for taking on the

publication of those works, because otherwise

they would have gone out of print. The AA

headquarters in New York City did not have the

money to print them (they were barely able to

scrape up enough money to publish the "Twelve

Steps and Twelve Traditions") and if they had

attempted to set up a big AA-related publishing

firm, it probably would have violated the

Traditions.



Hazelden has also published a lot of good

books on AA history, books which the fellowship

absolutely needs to have available, but which

the New York office cannot afford to print.

In order to be healthy, AA needs to have many

more books available on AA history and on AA

spirituality than the New York office can afford

to print. So we have always depended on self-

publishing and friendly foundations and so on

to carry out this service work for AA.



But please, the works of Richmond Walker,

Ed Webster, and Father Ralph Pfau are NOT

"Hazelden treatment philosophy" and these books

were NOT written by a bunch of treatment center

psychiatrists. They were WRITTEN BY AA MEMBERS

FOR AA MEMBERS (to coin a phrase).



Hazelden has also published good books on AA

history by people like AA member Mel B. (who

was also the principle author of the conference-

sponsored AA history book called "Pass It On").

Mel is very definitely not a treatment center

psychiatrist!



What causes the confusion is that Hazelden

ALSO publishes books written by treatment center

psychiatrists. We have to distinguish between

those books and the books by AA authors. They

are two totally different kinds of books.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3363 Billy-Bob
RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 4/18/2006 4:50:00 PM


The claim that 75 percent achieved a lasting sobriety itself seems strangely and

ambiguously worded. "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried (an

ambiguous qualifier used to eliminate an unknown percentage of people), 50% got

sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, (this

is the category I personally fall into) and among the remainder, (presumably the

remaining 25%) those who stayed on with us showed some improvement. (What the

heck does this mean? Does this mean the ultimate success rate is higher than

75%? Does this mean they stayed sober for a while but died drunk and

consequently were not counted as successes? It's very unclear.) Other thousands

(What other thousands? How many other thousands? Does this refer to the ones who

didn't really try?) came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't

really want the program. But great numbers of these---(Uh excuse me how many?)

about two out of three---(Pardon me? two out of

three of how many?) began to return as time passed." Really? How do we know

they returned as time passed, who was keeping track of their comings and goings?

What does Bill mean by "showed improvement?" This statement is simply to vague

to be meaningful. BTW, this statement was found in the forward to the Second

Edition which reads "Figures given in this foreword describe the Fellowship as

it was in 1955." So claims of a 50 to 75 percent success rate seem to be being

claimed for this particular time period and not for the time prior to and

shortly after the Big Book was published, the so called "flying blind" period as

you describe it. If you read the statement very carefully you will find that it

makes very little sense and leaves all kinds of questions unanswered. One is

left with the very general idea that if you come to A.A. and really try you have

a pretty good chance of making it. While this impression might be pretty

accurate, and in my experience it is. We still

don't know what percentage of people "really try" i.e. make sufficent effort to

make it. According to some of AA's own triennnial surveys a good 95 percent

seem to drop out during the first year. That means that about 5 percent "really

try". Which means that if 50% get it right away figure and 75% get it eventually

figures hold true, it means that after all is said and done that 75% of 5%

achieve a lasting sobriety.



Sincerely, Billy-Bob


0 -1 0 0
3364 Jim S.
Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland 93% recovery rate in Cleveland 4/19/2006 10:45:00 AM


From Mitchell K., "How It Worked," page 108:

"The Ohio membership was opposed to ANY changes in the draft of the

book. They had achieved great success using the original message.

Their numbers were growing; and the members who were staying sober,

were staying sober with little or no cases of relapse into active

alcoholism"

Two years after the publication of the book, Clarence made a survey

of all of the members in Cleveland. He concluded that, by keeping most

of the "old program," including the Four Absolutes and the Bible,

ninety-three percent of those surveyed had maintained uninterrupted

sobriety. Clarence opined that even with New York's "moral psychology"

approach to recovery "had nowhere near our recovery rate."



Jim S.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bent Christensen"

<bent_christensen5@...> wrote:

>

> Hi there

>

> Does anyone know which records Clarence is referring to when he make

> the statement about the recovery rate in Dr. Bob and the Good

> Oldtimers, at page 261?

>

> Thanks

> Bent

>


0 -1 0 0
3365 spokann24@aol.com
Re: Re: Emmet Fox Emmet Fox 4/18/2006 2:31:00 PM


Messages from spokann24, Billy-Bob, and Lynn Sawyer

______________________________



From: spokann24@aol.com

(spokann24 at aol.com)



"I regret that the unfortunate prejudice against

literature that isn't conference-approved has

eliminated this any several other good books from

most meetings."



It's good to remember that these wonderful books,

while not conference-approved, are not conference-

DISAPPROVED either!

______________________________



From: Billy-Bob <backtobasicsbillybob@yahoo.com>

(backtobasicsbillybob at yahoo.com)



Yes the advantage of the book Living Sober is it's

very short and very practical, in fact it's often

called a booklet rather than a book. It is only 88

pages. It concentrates on subjects such as staying

away from the first drink, sponsorship and avoiding,

"emotional entanglements" in the first few months of

sobriety. A lot of the common sense advice and

slogans that get passed along word of mouth in AA

can be found in the booklet Living Sober and nowhere

else in the conference approved AA literature.

Agnostics and atheists in AA tend to favor the book

Living Sober because there is very little sermonizing

about God or a Higher Power in it. Stools and Bottle

as I recall also takes on the subject of drinking

very directly. Some people who are homophobic in

AA dislike the book Living Sober because Barry L.

its author was a homosexual.



Sincerely, Billy-Bob

______________________________



From: Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>

(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)



I, too, have benefited from reading so-called

Non-Conference-Approved Literature. Try "The

Spirituality of Imperfection"--it, too, is a

good read.



And don't forget that Alanon has alot of good

literature, too. (Yes, we CAN talk about Alanon,

it's mentioned in the Big Book!)



Lynn from Sacramento, CA


0 -1 0 0
3366 Arkie Koehl
Are there AA literature reviews? Are there AA literature reviews? 4/19/2006 10:40:00 AM


Suggestion from Arkie for the creation of a list

of helpful AA literature, along with comments from

Robert Stonebraker and James Bliss about possible

books to include on that list.

______________________________



Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com>

(arkie at arkoehl.com)



This is a fascinating, useful and helpful thread.



Thanks to all.



Is there by any chance someplace where such

literature is reviewed by peers, or just AA

historians, so that relative novices like myself

can get a feel for what books are generally

better thought of than others?



Arkie Koehl

Honolulu



- - - - - - - - - - - -

On Apr 18, 2006, at 14:42, Robert Stonebraker

wrote:



Our Big Book Step Study Group in Richmond, IN,

spends the first two Tuesdays studying AA history -

we show a short movie, "DAWN OF HOPE" and

sometimes A HOUSE FULL OF MIRACLES" from Dr. Bob's

Home. We make great effort to make these 90 minute

sessions interesting. I have learned lots of

interesting little stories about Ebby Thacher,

Rowland Hazard, Carl Jung, Rev. Shoemaker, Clarence

Snyder and all the rest of those early historical

participants from non-conference approved materials.



Here are listed a few of our current book collection:



> * EBBY, the man who sponsored Bill W., by Mel B.

> * CHILDREN OF THE HEALER, by Bob Smith and Sue Windows

> * DIARY OF TWO MOTORCYCLE HOBOS, by Lois Wilson,

edited by Ellie Van V.

> * GRATEFUL TO HAVE BEEN THERE, by Nell Wing

> * HOW IT WORKED, the story of Clarence Snyder,

by Mitchell K.

> * SISTER IGNATIA, Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous,

by Mary C. Darrah

> * NOT GOD, a history of Alcoholics Anonymous,

by Ernest Kurtz

> * BILL W, by Robert Thomsen



Here are a few other non-AA history books we use

for reference because they were often read by early

AA members:



> * SERMON ON THE MOUNT, BY Emmet Fox

> * AS A MAN THINKETH, by James Allen

> * THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD, by Henry Drummond



But naturally our main source of historical information

comes from the Conference approved books from GSO .



Bob S.



______________________________



From: james.bliss@comcast.net

(james.bliss at comcast.net)



I have been literature chair for both District

and Area and have only seen verbal indications

that we are to encourage Conference Approved

literature. I will attempt to review any

documentation which I have received which may

include this in a written form but I do not

remember having read any. I was asked to talk

during a presentation about 'Carrying the Message'

and was instructed the content was to be about

carrying the message using conference approved

literature.



Personally, I believe that any material which

is spiritual in nature is acceptable and the Big

Book enforces this idea regarding spiritual

material. I do encourage various conference

approved literature for various reasons:



Big Book - it is the AA program

12 and 12 - obvious

Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers - historical perspective

Pass It On - historical perspective

Various guidelines and handbooks depending upon what

service work is being performed

Open/Closed meeting card - good to read at the

respective meeting

Anonymity - both the pamphlet and the brief card -

good to clear up the confusion about exactly what

anonymity is for etc.



I also recommend many external reading depending

upon the individual and where they are at:



Sermon on the Mount - Emmet Fox

Fenelon Letters

24 Hours a Day

The Little Red Book

The Bible - for those member who believe in that

religion

And many other items which I read from recommendations

from friends, religious leaders, browsing in stores.



My impression from the Big Book is that we should

listen to our spiritual leaders and seek their advice

on what materials we might want to read. To me,

this is about getting and staying sober, not limiting

my reading to a specific publisher.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
3367 James Blair
Re: Conference approved literature... Conference approved literature... 4/19/2006 3:40:00 PM


Steve wrote

Is there any reference within conference approved

literature or AA World Services literature about

the common group conscience guideline of restricting literature in

meetings to only "conference approved literature"?



Conference Advisory Actions on Literature.



1977-

It was suggested that AA groups be discouraged from selling literature

not distributed by the General Service Office and the Grapevine.


0 -1 0 0
3368 ArtSheehan
RE: Re: 93% recovery rate in Cleveland 93% recovery rate in Cleveland 4/19/2006 4:49:00 PM


References



DBGO - Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers

SD - Slaying the Dragon



When Cleveland members separated from the Oxford Group (and the Akron,

OH meetings) they adopted a very rigorous prescreening procedure for

prospects. Today, such prescreening would be considered in direct

opposition to the spirit and letter of Tradition Three and morally

abhorrent. The following are excerpts from “Dr Bob and the Good

Oldtimers that qualify a claimed “93%” success rate. It would likely

be better qualified as Cleveland achieving a 93% success among those

prospects who were already successful.



(DBGO pg 261) "Meetings in Cleveland evolved somewhat differently from

those in Akron. “We opened with an audible prayer,” said Clarence S.

“The speaker, who was chosen four weeks in advance, spoke for 45

minutes, and we closed with the Lord’s Prayer. Then, we would reopen

for informal comments, questions, and so forth. The total meeting

might go on anywhere from one and a half to two hours. No smoking was

allowed in the first part of the meeting, only in the informal part.”



“That’s the trouble,” Clarence said. “They take it so casually today,

I think a little discipline is necessary. I think AA was more

effective in those days. Records in Cleveland show that 93 percent of

those who came to us never had a drink again. When I discovered that

people had slips in AA, it really shook me up. Today it’s all watered

down so much. Anyone can wander in now.”



(DBGO pg 263) The active or even recently active alcoholic was

definitely not welcome at early meetings in Cleveland. In September

1940, Clarence wrote Bill that “several groups do not permit a rummy

to attend unless he has been hospitalized or talked to by ten men.”

Clarence noted that they then had a “definite setup” with three

hospitals and two sanitariums, and that there were ten to 15

hospitalized at all times. By January 1941, requirements had eased up

- slightly. Clarence wrote that “most groups” required either

hospitalization, being talked by a least five members, or being passed

by a committee before a new person could attend meetings.



In Youngstown, it was usual for two couples to visit the prospective

member before he attended his first meeting. The husband would tell

the man about AA., and the woman would talk to the wife. “That way,

they would know what it was all about when they finally got to AA,”

said Norman V.



Various groups have various distinctions,” Clarence wrote. “But the

general idea is to try and prepare a fellow and give him a pretty good

understanding of the aims and principles of A.A. before he comes to

meetings. This eliminates much of the nuisance of entertaining boys

under the influence at out meetings.”



(DBGO pg Earlier in the book, a Cleveland member verifies the

prescreening procedure:



(DBGO pg 169) “After Clarence talked to me at my home, others would

come over and talk to me. They wouldn’t let you in a meeting Just by

one guy talking to you, as they do now. They felt you should know

something about what you were going to hear and the purpose of the

program. “Then Clarence made me go to the home of one of the newer

members every night for 3 months, and they had nine or ten people

taking to me. Then I had to read the Big Book before I went to my

first meeting. As a result, I think I had a better understanding of

what they were trying to do”.



A similar reference can be found in “Slaying the Dragon” by William L

White, an excerpt summarizes



(SD pg 133) As AA completed its developmental separation from the

Oxford Group and moved toward publication of the Big Book, other

significant but less observable milestones occurred. Rules evolved

(rules that were later relaxed) governing when a potential member,

known variably as a "prospect," "baby," "pigeon," "fish," or

"suspect," could first attend a meeting. Several Cleveland groups, for

example, would not allow any prospective member to attend a meeting

until he had either been detoxified in a hospital or talked to by ten

members. A Denver Group would not allow prospects to attend meetings

until they had taken the Steps. (41)



Endnote (41): P., Wally (1995) "But, For the Grace of God...How

Intergroups & Central Offices Carried the Message of Alcoholics

Anonymous in the 1940s" Wheeling, WV: The Bishop of Books.



The Cleveland area groups essentially “cherry picked” those prospects

who had already previously achieved recovery, and demonstrated the

ability to stay sober. This was a requirement before being allowed to

enter the Cleveland AA Fellowship and attend meetings. Classifying

this practice as achieving a “93%” success rate, is tantamount to

classifying a surgical procedure as successful by only including those

who had survived and ignoring or omitting those who didn’t.



Without an indication of the number of prescreened “unsuccessful”

alcoholics who were not allowed to attend Cleveland meetings, the

reputed “93%” is so dominantly biased to a demonstrated favorable

subset of the prospect population as to be a dubious claim at best.



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
3369 ArtSheehan
RE: Conference approved literature... Conference approved literature... 4/19/2006 5:07:00 PM


Hi Steve



The info below was a previous posting to AAHistoryLovers:



I don’t believe it’s a stretch to suggest that when groups stress that

they will allow only Conference-approved literature, they are likely

trying to achieve three things:



1. Keep out the proliferation of “recovery” writings that are

emanating from more and more varied sources (e.g. Barnes and Noble has

a “Recovery” section in their book stores).



2. Ensure that there is no blurring of the distinction between AA and

the proliferation of other “12 Step Fellowships.”



3. Stay with literature that has been reviewed by a Conference

standing committee to ensure that it conforms to AA principles.



It would likely be better to use the term “AA literature” instead of

“Conference-approved literature” since a fairly substantial body of AA

literature is not required to go through the Conference-approval

process. Some examples:



1. Grapevine (and its non-English counterparts).

2. Box 459

3. Guidelines (the "yellow sheets")

4. Workbooks (e.g. Archives, PI, CPC, TF and CF service committees)

5. Markings (the GSO Archives newsletter)

6. About AA (PI releases)

7. Directories

8. Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of AA (M-39)

9. Final reports of the General Service Conference

10. Literature published by GSOs other than the US/Canada and AAWS

11. Final reports of the World Service Conference

12. Memento booklets from International Conventions

13. Literature catalogs and flyers (AAWS and Grapevine)

14. Non-English interpretations of books/pamphlets

15. Various and sundry GSO publications called “service pieces.”

(And I've probably missed others)



There is literature, published outside of AA, that is not

Conference-approved but which is certainly valuable and beneficial.

There are some wonderful historic and spiritual works. If you visit

GSO in NY and go the Archives exhibit, you’ll see an entire wall of

books that are not Conference-approved - which is fine for anyone

engaging in serious research. On the other hand there is an awful lot

of nonsense, “recovery psycho-babble” and revisionist history that

gets published as well.



So how do you deal with all of this? I believe most groups draw a line

by adopting a guideline to only allow Conference-approved literature.

What does GSO have to say on the matter? The information below is a

transcription of a service piece (re 15 above) that is included in a

packet that is sent to a new group when it registers with GSO. It also

appears in a number of service committee kits.



CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE



Service Material From G.S.O.



“Conference-approved”--What It Means to You



The term “Conference-approved” describes written or audiovisual

material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This

process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with

A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the

recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the

A.A. Fellowship.



The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does

not imply Conference disapproval of other material about A.A. A great

deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and

A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or

may not read.



Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents

solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet

goes through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety

of A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express

opinions at every stage of production.



How To Tell What Is and What Is Not Conference-approved



Look for the statement on books, pamphlets and films:



“This is A.A. General Service Conference-approved literature”



All “A.A. Literature” Is Not Conference-approved



Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or

booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the

needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as

“A.A. literature.” There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,

Inc. (A.A.W.S. - publishers of Conference-approved literature), and

central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other.

The Conference does not disapprove of such material.



G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved

by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins.



Available at Most A.A. Groups



Most local A.A. groups purchase and display a representative sampling

of Conference-approved pamphlets, and usually carry a supply of

hardcover books. Conference-approved literature may be available at

central offices and intergroups, or it may be ordered directly from

G.S.O. Groups normally offer pamphlets free of charge, and the books

at cost.



Copyright



Conference-approved literature is copyrighted with the Copyright

Office, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. To insure the

continued integrity of A.A. literature, and to make sure the A.A.

recovery programs will not be distorted or diluted, permission to

reprint must be obtained from A.A.W.S. in writing.

However, A.A. newsletters, bulletins, or meeting lists have blanket

permission to use the material, providing proper credit is given to

insure that the copyrights of A.A. literature are protected.

The A.A. Preamble is copyrighted by The A.A. Grapevine, Inc. (not by

A.A. World Services). Beneath it, these words should appear: Reprinted

with permission of the A.A. Grapevine, Inc. The Steps and Traditions

should be followed by these words: Reprinted with Permission of A.A.

World Services, Inc.



10/93



F-29 (handwritten)



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
3370 ArtSheehan
RE: Non-Conference approved literature Non-Conference approved literature 4/19/2006 5:20:00 PM


The list of source reference below were used to compile a timeline of

AA history that I periodically distribute in AAHistoryLovers. I've

read them all more th