tblYgr_AAHistoryLovers
YahooMessageID From FromEmail Subject SubjectSrt RecDate Message AttCount NewMsgFlag DelMsgFlag FavMsgFlag
3002 JNP in Maine
Re: Length of sobriety & James H. Length of sobriety & James H. 12/27/2005 8:14:00 AM

I met James H. in 1997 at the Wilson House in Vermont. I am almost positive he
had said that he was not a member of AA and never had been. Does anyone have
any info re this statement by him.

Thanks

Joe Petrocelli
<jopet34@yahoo.com>
(jopet34 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
3003 chesbayman56
Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 12/31/2005 1:46:00 PM

Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking.
Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.
Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of
"Alcoholics Anonymous".
Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression.
Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA.
Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan
Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob.
Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety".
Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus,
Ohio Central Group.
Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland.
Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded.
Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan.
Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get
away from the Oxford Group atmosphere".
Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years
sober.
Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to
Alcoholics Anonymous, died.
Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group.
Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School,
Akron, Ohio.
Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years
dies.
Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician
Heal Thyself" died.
Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC.
Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri.
Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto.
Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started
in Oct 24 1943.
Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in
his sleep.
Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in
Pennington, New Jersey.
Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.
Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church
in Brookyn Heights.
Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis
Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL.
Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley.
Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1.
Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus
Contra Spiritum".
End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated
for comment, evaluation and sale.

0 -1 0 0
3004 ny-aa@att.net
Long-Term Success Higher in 2004 Survey Long-Term Success Higher in 2004 Survey 1/1/2006 12:02:00 AM

How long have members of A.A. been sober? That is one of the
questions in the triennial survey among randomly selected groups
in the U.S. and Canada every three years. Surveys are all done
during a one to two week period. Everyone who is at a particular
meeting of each of those groups is asked to participate.

LENGTH OF SOBRIETY IN ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
Survey
Year ... <1 ..... 1-5 .... >5 ...... Average
**77 ... 37.3% .. 38.0% .. 24.7% ... 4 years
**80 ... 36.4% .. 37.2% .. 26.4% ... 4 years
**83 ... 37.7% .. 36.9% .. 24.9% ... 4 years
**86 ... 32.8% .. 38.4% .. 29.0% ... 4+ years
1989 ... 34% .... 37% .... 29% ..... 4+ years
1992 ... 31% .... 34% .... 35% ..... 5+ years
1996 ... 27% .... 28% .... 45% ..... 6+ years
1998 ... 27% .... 26% .... 47% ..... 7+ years
2001 ... 30% .... 22% .... 48% ..... 7+ years
2004 ... 26% .... 24% .... 50% ..... 8+ years

As of the 2004 Survey, long-term sobriety was so prevalent that
"Greater Than Five Years" was broken into two parts as follows:
5-10 Years = 14%
>10 Years = 36%
------------------ adding
>5 Years = 50%

For those unfamiliar with Alcoholics Anonymous, sobriety in A.A.
means continuous and complete abstinance from alcohol in any form.
This table represents only those who are sober and still attending
meetings. Someone who got sober in A.A. and who is staying sober
by some other means would not appear in the survey.

NOTE: Entries with dates beginning ** here are from a summary.
Those with complete years are from copies of published pamphlets:
"(P-48) Alcoholics Anonymous YYYY Membership Survey"
___________________
En2joy! Tom En2ger

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3005 hoojgs
Definitions of the "real alcoholic" (re 3 and 5-year survival rates) Definitions of the "real alcoholic" (re 3 and 5-year survival rates) 12/27/2005 10:47:00 AM

My comments below do not address the question of the statistical
accuracy of the survival rate study but relate to the history of the
debate over who is a "real alcoholic."

I wonder if anyone has seen the actual long list of membership requirements that
Bill collected in the days before the adoption of the third tradition.

Thanks in advance,
Jim

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3006 Diz Titcher
James H. and length of sobriety James H. and length of sobriety 12/27/2005 6:31:00 AM

Hi Gary,

James Houck was never a member of AA. He is the last original Oxford Grouper and
puts on those workshop with a friend of his who was in AA. I do not know whether
the friend is alive or not.

Diz T.
Tallahassee

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3007 Des Green
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 12/27/2005 4:30:00 AM

(With a comment by Glenn C. at the end)

Hi,

With respect to what Fiona D. said in Message 2992
(http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2992).

Constant references to the REAL alcoholic sometimes confuses me. If a person
takes a drink and cannot control their intake is that not a real alcoholic ?

If this allergy, or whatever it is has progressed to the point that alcohol is
dominating ones every waking thought and the consumption of it is the most
important thing is that not a real alcoholic?

The suggestion sometimes seems to be that no alcoholic can recover unless they
are in AA and attend meetings <not so> .

So what is it you are saying here ?

1. There are people who are pretending to be alcoholic?

2. Some people are more alcoholic than others?

I'm fairly new to all this, 21 months sober.

And please don't think I am having a go at you personally, I'm not. I'm simply
picking up your thread to obtain an answer, not necessarily from you. This is
another thing that does my head in .... having to be so careful about the
sensitivities of others when nothing insensitive is intended.

Best wishes, Des

It really is great to be sober and in such a fantastic fellowship Good Luck!

______________________________

Des,

Let me try my hand at answering your question.

It was common in early AA to distinguish between three different kinds of
drinkers. Let's call them Types 1, 2, and 3 for the purposes of this discussion.
Sometimes they were called (Type 1) "social drinkers," (Type 2) "heavy
drinkers," and (Type 3) "alcoholics." Richmond Walker, in Twenty Four Hours a
Day (1948), referred to the last category as "merry go round drinkers."

Mrs. Marty Mann makes this same kind of distinction in the book she wrote for
the National Council on Alcoholism. Our South Bend good old timer, Brownie,
makes that three-fold distinction in the material about him in The St. Louis
Gambler & the Railroad Man. Dr. Jellinek (and many others) tried to make
distinctions of this same sort during the 1940's and 1950's.

It had been noted that some alcoholics were clearly drinking alcoholically from
the time they took their very first drink. The first time they had a chance at
a bottle (even if they were just teenagers), they drank themselves rip roaring
drunk, and they just kept on drinking that way from that point on.

But other alcoholics started out as social drinkers, and then gradually began
drinking more and more, until finally after enough years they crossed some
invisible line, and became clearly and unambiguously alcoholic drinkers.

Psychologists who study alcoholism and public health agencies which are
concerned with alcoholism have found that they also have to make some kind of
distinction between people who are drinking a lot, and people who are
alcoholics. You cannot measure the amount of alcohol that is consumed and use
that to determine who is a heavy drinker and who is an alcoholic.

All sorts of fancy definitions have been dreamed up by psychologists, medical
doctors, and so on, to try to identify where you make the division between Type
Two heavy drinkers (or "alcohol abusers" or whatever term you're using) and Type
Three genuine alcoholics.

Let us not get into quarrels about what precise terminology to use here, because
there have been a variety of different terms used over the years.

But as far as I can see, the basic distinction historically has been a simple
one. A Type Two heavy drinker (or alcohol abuser, or whatever) who is given
sufficient reason to stop drinking, will be able to stop on his own simply by
using will power. Maybe his doctor puts him on a heart medication and tells him
that he has to take the medication to save his life, and that this medication
cannot be mixed with alcohol in the system. Or something in his life puts him
in a situation where he will get in enormous trouble if he does not quit. So he
simply grits his teeth, and stops drinking. Just like that. Permanently.

A Type Three true alcoholic will find that he cannot stop drinking on his own,
by his own will power, no matter how serious the consequences are going to be.
His wife says that she will leave him, his employer says that he will fire him,
the judge says that he will give him twenty years in prison the next time he
drives drunk, his doctor says that he will be dead within a year if he keeps on
drinking. But no matter what it is, a true alcoholic will STILL keep drinking,
in spite of all that, if he is trying to do it by himself by his own willpower.
If you listen to tape recordings of the good old timers, you will find numerous
examples of alcoholics whose drinking was destroying them totally, who still
could not stop on their own, simply by using will power.

One thing which muddies the waters nowadays, is that (beginning with Dr.
Jellinek's famous chart back in the 1940's) the experts on alcoholism have
assembled data on the way that the disease of alcoholism progresses, where they
can spot the symptoms of Type Three chronic alcoholism much earlier than they
could in the 1930's and 1940's. So nowadays we can sometimes identify a person
as definitely a chronic alcoholic early in the progression of the disease, and
send that person off to AA, and save that person an awful lot of misery and
heartbreak, EVEN THOUGH in early AA they would not have allowed that person to
attend AA meetings because they would have felt that this person's drinking did
not qualify him or her to be a "true alcoholic" yet.

So is this particular individual a Type Two heavy drinker who is getting himself
or herself in trouble, and maybe needs some encouragement to quit doing that
from a psychotherapist or someone like that?

Or is this particular individual a Type Three alcoholic EARLY in the progression
of the disease, who hasn't gotten himself or herself in major trouble yet, but
who nevertheless is going to need AA in order to quit? In current AA jargon, we
would sometimes call this kind of person a "high bottom" drunk.

So what Fiona was asking was, were the people in that statistical table who went
to AA meetings for a year and then quit going to meetings but were still sober
even five years later, actually Type Three alcoholics? Or were they Type Two
heavy drinkers who got sober in AA meetings, but actually would have been able
to get sober all on their own anyway, just by using their own willpower?

In other words, were they Type Two heavy drinkers who had been misdiagnosed as
early stage Type Three alcoholics?

The issue at stake is, is it EVER safe for a Type Three genuine alcoholic to
quit going to meetings? If they quit going to meetings, will Type Three
alcoholics ALWAYS inevitably go back to their alcoholic drinking sooner or
later? The good old timers in my part of Indiana say (on the basis of their
many years of experience) that Type Three genuine alcoholics will ALWAYS go back
to drinking eventually if they quit going to AA meetings, with the one exception
that a few do manage to use church going as a substitute for AA meetings, and
can stay sober that way.

Fiona's question is not some nit picking question about numbers and statistics,
but a word of warning about something which could cost alcoholics their lives if
they make the wrong decision. Fiona is warning all of us (based in her case of
her knowledge of Irish alcoholics): do NOT assume on the basis of those 3 and 5
year survival rate statistics which were recently posted that you will have some
hope of staying sober if you quit going to AA meetings.

Given the fact that Fiona's Irish alcoholics and my own Hoosier alcoholics here
in Indiana seem to suffer the same fate if they quit going to AA meetings, I
would advise anyone reading these AAHL postings to take Fiona's warning with
deadly seriousness. Her warning is simple: don't use those 3 and 5 year
survival statistics to play games with your life, if you are a true alcoholic.

I would add an additional warning to hers. Alcoholism is cunning, baffling, and
powerful. Also patient, sneaky, and lying. Many a true alcoholic here in my
part of Indiana has gone to AA meetings and stayed sober for a long time (maybe
even ten years of more) until the voice of Mr. Alcoholism inside that person's
head has started murmuring, "You know, I haven't had any trouble staying off the
booze these past ten years, and you know, I'm not really like some of these
other people in the AA meetings. I'm more intelligent than they are, have more
will power and self control. I never fell as low as they fell. Maybe I'm not
really an alcoholic at all. Maybe I was just a heavy drinker, you know,
somebody who just got carried away sometimes. But I'm so much older and wiser
now. You know, I think it would be safe now, after ten years, to go out and
have a little social drink."

We have a lot of retreads here in Hoosier AA who let themselves listen to that
lying voice inside their heads, and went back out drinking, and then had to
suffer years of misery before they finally came dragging themselves back in the
doors of AA, admitting finally, "O.K., I guess that I (even I) actually am an
alcoholic of some sort, the kind who needs AA meetings if I want to live instead
of dying."

I should also say that the people in Indiana who go back out and try it again
after ten years or so, are people who tell us later on that in fact they never
worked the steps, even though they went to meetings. It is particularly doing a
really thorough and deep reaching Fourth Step which is vital if you want people
to give you the ultimate accolade at your funeral, and say with enormous respect
in their voices, "he died sober," "she died sober."

So to Fiona's warning, I will add my own. Don't use those 3 and 5 year survival
rate statistics which were posted to play games with your life. Keep on going
to meetings. Keep up constant contact with your fellow AA members. Do a real
Fourth Step and ferret out all of the resentment and fear in your life, and
figure out what all your character defects are, so you won't be tempted to look
down your nose at ANYBODY in an AA meeting, thinking yourself superior to that
person in any way whatsoever. http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html

And remember that EVEN IF someone could prove that 33-1/3 % of genuine
alcoholics could eventually quit going to AA meetings and still be sober 3 years
later, or even 5 years later, that is till playing Russian roulette with a six
gun with four chambers loaded. And 5 years isn't 10 years or 15 years.

Glenn C.
South Bend, Indiana, U.S.
(A REAL alcoholic, sober today ONLY by the grace of God and the help of the
people in this fellowship, who is not planning on jumping out of the lifeboat,
thank you!)

0 -1 0 0
3008 Jon Markle
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 12/27/2005 10:13:00 PM

I would add that there is a *CLINICAL* differentiation between alcohol
*DEPENDENCY* and alcohol *ABUSE* and the treatment recommended is different,
although somewhat similar. A comparison of the criteria outlined in the Big
Book regarding the descriptions of drinkers to the clinical criteria found in
the DSM-IV-TR, reveals how amazingly close the two agree with the
differentiations.

I would also make the distinction that meeting attendance is not the same thing
as "working the program" . . . And not a requirement for either sobriety or the
kind of permanent sobriety of which the Book speaks.

Many people, who fit criteria for alcohol dependency ("alcoholics") go to
meetings, learn how to work the program (the steps) and incorporate them into
their lives as a way of life, without going to meetings forever. Such I think
was the author's intent when he wrote: "AA's twelve Steps are a group of
principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can
expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and
usefully whole."

Besides, as I recall, AA is for people who wish to stop drinking . . . It
doesn't really matter that they may or may not be dependent upon alcohol or
"simply" abuse it . . . A desire to stop is all that matters.

If indeed it is a Higher Power that keeps us sober, then simply going to
meetings isn't going to work for the long haul. But, working the spiritual
program in all our affairs will continue to insure sobriety . . . Even without
meetings.

Jon Markle
9/9/82

0 -1 0 0
3009 Mel Barger
Re: Responsibility statement and the 4th International Convention Responsibility statement and the 4th International Convention 12/27/2005 7:03:00 AM

Hi All,
Yes, I knew that Al S. composed the Responsibility Statement, although I never
met him.

Clarence Snyder also told me about spending time with Bill
in Toronto. Bill had wanted to see him, he said. I'm not surprised that Bill
enjoyed the meeting and showed no hard feelings. In all their correspondence,
it was always Bill who was conciliatory, etc., despite being criticized by
Clarence.

I believe there was some concern in AA over the fact that we had finally been
criticized by a national publication; i.e., the 1963 Harper's Magazine article
by Arthur Cain. If I am not mistaken, the 1965 Convention theme was that AA
should take its inventory.

I wasn't able to attend that year because our son Dean, now forty, chose that
weekend to be born. It was very thoughtful of AA to arrange things so that I
could finally attend a Toronto convention in 2005.

Mel Barger

0 -1 0 0
3010 Emmanuel John
James Houck (Oxford Group) James Houck (Oxford Group) 12/27/2005 11:54:00 AM

I was just at the house of Jim Houck the grandson of the James Houck you
mentioned, (on Friday night.) I do believe that his grand father is still
alive. We live in the Baltimore/Towson area of Maryland, he reports that his
grandfather got sober on 12-12, the day after Bill entered Towns for the last
time


Peace & Happy Days
Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C
_______________________________

See Message 3006 on James Houck

0 -1 0 0
3011 Mel Barger
Re: Re: Length of sobriety Length of sobriety 12/27/2005 6:51:00 AM

Hi All,

I talked with Chauncey C. by telephone yesterday. He is now in a care home in
Waterford, Mich., but is still sharp and willing to converse about his AA
experience. I first met him in 1950 when I was five months sober and had moved
to Pontiac, Mich., from my hometown, Norfolk, Nebr. He had nine years then, but
there were members in Pontiac and Detroit who had more time.

I don't think he got sober at Dr. Bob's house, but I can check that. He told
me that a judge in Pontiac helped get him in touch with the AA's there in 1941.
He was a blue-collar man and felt a little out of place with doctors and lawyers
in the group, but that quickly changed. He and his wife Vivian were married
when she was 13 or 14 and he was 15 or 16 (I must check that out!). Amazingly,
they are still married and close to their 80th anniversary! That must be some
kind of record.

Mel Barger

_______________________________

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@c...> wrote:

There was a man at the International that claimed 62 years.

Diz T.

_______________________________

Hi Diz, Gary here / Alkie :)

I just saw that man the day before thanksgiving at a gratitude meeting that he
started over 57 yrs ago, his name is Chauncey C.

He is from Pontiac MI. & he will be 93 yrs old this month and also said he got
sober at Dr. Bob's house.

Yes he did say that he was the last one standing at A.A.'s International
Convention in Toronto Cananda for the 70th anniversary of A.A. this past summer.

0 -1 0 0
3012 pmds@aol.com
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 1/2/2006 8:49:00 AM

It seems to me that trying to make alcoholics different from heavy drinkers is
an attempt to make black and white out of something which is most likely gray.

The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is
primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics
metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of
the population (in the United States, in other places it is higher or lower.

It appears that the rate of alcoholism is lower in cultures that have had
alcohol the longest period of time and higher in those cultures that have had
it the least amount of time.) See for example Under the Influence by Milam et
al.

If, therefore, alcoholism is a real disease then it should be viewed as a
real disease.

Some diabetics can control their diabetes by diet, others by diet and oral
medication and others by multiple daily injections. Each one is a "real"
diabetic, it is the disease itself that is different in different people. Some
milder, some more severe.

Some alcoholics get sober in their teens, others in their 80's and all ages
in between. Are we to decide which are real alcoholics? Logically it would
seem that those in their 80's may have a milder form of alcoholism as they were
able to drink longer, function and not die. The younger ones perhaps have a
very severe form and therefore are unable to continue.

We in AA talk a lot about spirituality and higher powers, but I think we
forget about the miraculous nature of sobriety. The "spiritual awakening," the
"moment of clarity," the "surrender," the "epiphany," the
"emotional/spiritual/psychological bottom," the "moment of nonjudgmental
awareness" or whatever name it is given...the moment when we receive the gift of
the ability to
not drink is what it is.

Some have this moment and go to AA, some to church, some nowhere and some
other places too innumerable to mentions. In AA we say "Having had a spiritual
awakening as the result of these steps." However, we know that Bill had his
before any steps whatever. I had mine the day before I entered a treatment
center and I didn't even know what the steps were. We all have many,
many stories about people's spiritual awakening and as the person who had it
describes it, we see what they are talking about because it happened to us.

Going to AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than not going to AA
guarantees continued drinking. I came to AA for the first time in 1984 and I
have been sober ever since. I went to at least 1,000 meetings in my first two
years. Since that time I have never had a period of time more than a week or
so that I have not gone to meetings and I generally go to 3-5 meetings per
week. That doesn't necessarily keep me sober, it is just what I do. I love
the people, the experience, the blending, the hope, the tears, the
laughter....the whole package. Many do not do what I do. It doesn't make them
better or worse or more or less likely to drink. At least that is my opinion
based on my experience.

Having said all of the above, I'm not sure this "Real or Fake
Alcoholic/heavy drinker" is an appropriate topic for the AA HistoryLovers. I
think the study is very interesting and not surprising to me, but to try and
figure this out does not seem "figureoutable." There is tremendous wisdom in
the phrase "You're an alcoholic when you say you are."

Dave Smith


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3013 Cherie'' P
Chauncy C. (length of sobriety) Chauncy C. (length of sobriety) 12/27/2005 9:22:00 PM

Hi, I had to reply to this one, as I too met Chauncy at the Thanksgiving Eve
Gratitude meeting that Chauncy started 57 years ago. I sat in the front row and
felt very honored and humbled to be able to meet this man in person.

He told a few stories at the Gratitude meeting, but not about Bill W. I wonder
if he has done other open talks in the past where he has spoken about these
things, and where could they be purchased if the talks were taped?

We do have Serenity Taping here that does alot of AA taping, not sure how long
they have been around though.

Gary, I was also in Toronto, and yep, Chauncy was there. But was HE standing or
was someone standing in his place? In November he didnt look like he could stand
up out of his wheelchair to me.

Gary, email me privatley, I bet we may have met at some AA event in the area,
even if we dont know we did lol

Hugs
Cherie'
One Day At A Time
DOS 04-26-01

0 -1 0 0
3014 elodge1@peoplepc.com>
Xmas messages from Bill W. Xmas messages from Bill W. 12/28/2005 7:46:00 AM

Hi Cherie...

Actually I found quite a few ... you can access some of these at this link...

http://silkworth.net/pdfBillW/pdfBillW3.html ...

Happy Holidays...

rick...new hampshire
_____________________________

Original message from: Cherie' P

I received the following Christmas message from Bill W to the fellowship in
1944.

My question is, is this the ONLY year he wrote a letter of this nature? And if
others exist, please provide links to them if possible.

thanks

Hugs
Cherie'
One Day At A Time
DOS 04-26-01

0 -1 0 0
3015 Mitchell K.
Re: Spook Room at Stepping Stones, Dr. Bob and Anne Spook Room at Stepping Stones, Dr. Bob and Anne 12/28/2005 7:44:00 AM

Clarence used to tell me stories about how Bill, Bob
and himself had engaged in some spooky endeavors. They
invoked some esoteric mumblings and stood at the
mirror watching their beards grow (I guess that's
kinda like watching grass growing) and Clarence
described the trio like forefathers of hippies -
sitting around a room in their socks with Bill playing
(I think it was) the violin and shuffling to "Mr.
Sandman." Clarence never said that Anne was involved
in these sessions and it appears from what he said
that they were more "stag" sessions.

That type of behavior (dabbling into the occult) was
very popular in those days and wasn't looked upon as
against any sort of mainstream religious belief.

0 -1 0 0
3016 Mitchell K.
Re: Hank P. and early AA Hank P. and early AA 12/28/2005 7:54:00 AM

Just a quickie because I have to be off to work.

Clarence wasn't the only salesperson - Hank was one as
well as it appears there were a couple of others on
and off. Hank was also married to Dorothy's sisters.
Hank was very angry at Bill and AA in general.

Clarence used his being a traveling salesperson gig in
order to start AA meetings and attend them.

Just another quick echo to what Mel stated about our
dear brother Merton.... If there is anything out there
to be found it will probably be Merton who will find
it. I too have found Merton to be the top researcher
out there. Thank you!

--- greatcir@comcast.net wrote:

> In 1947 Hank Parkhurst wrote a letter to Clarence
> Snyder regarding their "porcelain moulding" business
> complaining that Clarence was "messed up" with AA
> and other things and was not working the porcelain
> business.
>
> What was the porcelain moulding business and why was
> Hank relying so heavily on Clarence to make the
> sales? The letter suggests that Clarence might be
> the only salesman.
>
> There is another letter to Clarence in 1946 where
> Hank admits to drinking beer for a couple of weeks
> so I assume he was still doing this in 1947.
>
> God Bless,
>
> Pete K.

0 -1 0 0
3017 tsirish1
Meeting makers make it Meeting makers make it 12/28/2005 12:45:00 PM

I would love to know where the expression "Meeting makers make it" came from.
The only reference to it that I have found was a caption to a cartoon in one of
the Best of the Grapevines. Please help me find the origin of this statement
(which I also believe to be erroneous).

0 -1 0 0
3018 chris fuccione
Re: The 1968-1974 AA comic strips online The 1968-1974 AA comic strips online 12/28/2005 7:43:00 PM

That's intresting I have one question. On the top of them it says
that they are AL-ANON Conference Approved Literature.

The one that was "IF YOUR PARRENTS DRINK TOO MUCH" and "JANE'S HUSBAND DRINKS
TOO MUCH" seems like they would be An AL-ANON pieces ...... but "IT HAPPENED TO
ALICE" and "WHAT HAPPENED TO JOE" are both AA Literature.

Why is the AL-ANON blurb on the top of them?

Chris












--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rudy890 <Rudy890@o...> wrote:
>
> Came across this old strip, a complete set of the 1968-1974
Alcoholics Anonymous comic strips.
>
> http://www.ep.tc/aa-comics/
>
> Just Click On Each Strip After You've Read It
>
> Hugs
> Rudy
>
>
> PLEASE VISIT MY HOME PAGE
> http://www.geocities.com/rudy849
> ============================
> rudy890@o...
> http://www.cloudmark.com/?rc=9mttaa
> ============================
> Consider How Hard It Is To Change Yourself
> And You'll Understand What Little Chance
> You Have In Trying To Changing Others
> º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤øø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤øø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

0 -1 0 0
3019 brian thompson
James Houck (length of sobriety) James Houck (length of sobriety) 12/28/2005 10:58:00 PM

Gary,

I met James Houck on September 2nd this year 05. He just celebrated 71 yrs
of sobriety on Dec 12th. James will be 100 yrs old on Feb 21 2006.

I will also be there for his birthday in Towson, MD.

James doesn't claim to have the longest length of sobriety in AA, since he
got sober in the Oxford Group and stayed with them for many years.

He curtainly has the longest sobriety of anyone alive just not in AA.

I was also at the International In Toronto. It was great seeing Chauncey
with 63 yrs.

This is a great site,
Brian T. Camp Verde, AZ

0 -1 0 0
3020 Glenn Chesnut
James Houck and AA in Towson James Houck and AA in Towson 1/3/2006 4:50:00 PM

A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of
Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at
Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on
to me.

James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people
in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA.

In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford
Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in
their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any
accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics.
All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who
were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the
early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that.

What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s
claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness
on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA
meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him
around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of
people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group
actually works with alcoholics.

James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson
Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a
real AA meeting would operate in the modern period.

JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the
Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has
been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims
about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/

In response to Wally's questioning in
http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsforjamesh.ht\
ml
James Houck said:
______________________________

"Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of
the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's.
AA has changed over the years -- today’s program is very different from the
“original.” For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings,
workshops and conventions about the “original” program of recovery. My Sobriety
date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as
did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard,
Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as
well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA
meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like
the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the
Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I
have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message
primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance
with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am
living."
______________________________

When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at
Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA
group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA
program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the
United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he
know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to
regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate?

What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has
been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings
at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their
AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even
knew who James was.

He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was
doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It
was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized
people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving
only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know
anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has
been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA.

There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s
testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs
to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report
to Kurtz as he wrote it:

______________________________

Hi, Glenn!

Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck,
authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about
his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have
read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I
rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the
item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between
the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA,
yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is
emphasized.

I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda,
MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in
this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally
presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at
least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might
find this information of interest.

*********

Ernie!

I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James
Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage
onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have
joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the
information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else
on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery,
and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense.

I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December
27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves
as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting
is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three
Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works,
Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a
20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one
17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it.

I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for
conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to
Basics movement.

They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he
recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently
come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure.

They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking
about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative.

The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran
who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about
all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw
little utility to pursuing this matter any more.

My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited
for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in
traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least
in my own environment ....

That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson
did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford
Movement, is a minor curiosity.

**********

I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again,
for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope
you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year.

JM




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3021 robin_foote
Real alcoholics Real alcoholics 12/30/2005 1:50:00 AM

Hi AA History Lovers,

The recent discussions on 'real alcoholics' reminded me of the following study
and I thought I would share it with you. Hope it 'fits' the AA History Lovers
essence.

I have wondered for some years about the referral rate and criteria for referral
to AA. Additionally, I have questioned the reported incidence of alcoholism in
the general population.

A study in 2004 that compared alcohol dependence and alcohol abuse found that up
to a third of alcoholics did not abuse alcohol. That is a third of alcoholics
did not drink at the damaging levels decided by health authorities (often
defined as above 3 drinks a day for men and 2 drinks a day for women).

If these alcoholics are not being identified by generally accepted
questionnaires to identify alcohol dependence then they are not being
referred for treatment or AA. The same report makes that very point.

The study; Hasin DS, Grant BF. (2004) The co-occurrence of DSM-IV alcohol abuse
in DSM-IV alcohol dependence. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2004
Sep;61(9):891-6. RESULTS: Among respondents with current alcohol
dependence, 33.7% did not additionally meet criteria for alcohol abuse
(29.0% among men and 46.1% among women).

This is confirmation that what AA says; Its not what, where, how much or who
with; it's the effect that alcohol has that defines alcoholism.

Perhaps the 'success' rates of AA and the referral rates are being affected by
healthcare workers assessing 'alcohol abuse' as alcoholism and not using the AA
criteria - thus inflating referral rates to AA. An alcohol abuser
(non-alcoholic) is unlikely to identify with AA members. This has all sorts of
implications for perceptions of AA.

The Big Book states; "To be gravely affected, one does not necessarily have to
drink a long time nor take the quantities some of us have. This is particularly
true of women. Potential female alcoholics often turn into the real thing and
are gone beyond recall in a few years." (AA, pp 33).

If the above is kept in mind perhaps we would reach some of the others who are
not now being referred to AA.

Robin F.
Brisbane, Australia

www.brieftsf.com <http://www.brieftsf.com/>

0 -1 0 0
3022 mertonmm3
Re: Hank P. and early AA Hank P. and early AA 1/2/2006 7:28:00 AM

Hi Pete,

As you probably know Clarence and Hank were brothers in law. After the
stock redemption/royalty sequence Hank carried a lifelong resentment
because the agreement was that only Dr. Bob would receive any proceeds
from the book. Dr. Bob did not want the royalty. Bill insisted that he
take it to avoid a potential claim by Hank. (Legally this last
assertation by Bill does not make sense but could be convincing coming
from a person with most of law school completed to someone with no
legal training.) Shortly thereafter Bill asked to "borrow" Dr. Bob's
royalty if he didn't need it.

One of the two letters housed at GSO became public and made it onto
the interernet: See

http://www.aagso.org/1941/index.htm

As is often the case particularly with AA History, and perhaps much of
history, one document is available where the surrounding documents
which establish context are not. I was fortunate enough to have read
and transcribed all the documents at GSO and Stepping Stones from this
era for a yet unpublished manuscript I've written.

My opinion, (emphasis on the last word), is that the issue is not that
Bill received a royalty, but that Hank did not. (and that Hank has a
innocent living decendent that genuinely is in need presently and Bill
does not).

As to the "porcelain buisness" to which you inquire Hank began a
buisness manufacturing Toby Mugs in the late 40's for which Clarence
was a salesman. You may recall the large decorative beer mugs often
sold in airport gift shops awhile back that had a pirates head as the
vessel and a parrot for a handle. There were many other head/handle
caricatures that being one example. The letterhead lists "Henry
Parkhusrst, Sales Management, Manufacturing, 1270 Ocean Avenue, West
Haven, Conn." Interestingly there is no "Inc." or "Co." after his name
or the pseudonym "Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains" on the letterhead
indicating that he probably learned the legalities of such use after
the failure to register the uncorporated buisness names of Henry G.
Parkhurst, Inc., Honor Dealers, Stainox Inc., Sharing Inc. or, until
1940, Works Publishing Company. Note that "Giffen" is Hank's middle name.

In addition to Henry Giffen, Fine Porcelains there are two other
entity/people listed under Sales Management. These are, Stanley
Ballard & Co, Hand Made Porcelains, and Lumen Kelsey, Sculptured
Porcelains. These reflect possible other sales reps besides Clarence
although the collection of correspondence indicates the former as more
of a resseller. I've been told by a reliable source that the actual
small manufacturing plant was near Trenton, New Jersey and was also
shown a photograph of it. Hank speaks of kilns in the correspondence.
The West Haven, Conn. address is a bit of an anomaly as Hank's return
address and cancelled envelopes to him invarialy indicate General Mail
Facility, West Orange, N.J. as his place of pickup.

I doubt anyone could argue that both Hank and Clarence had somewhat
abrasive personalities. This often makes their correspondence somewhat
humerous, (depending, of course, on the readers sense of humor).
Neither held much back. For example one letter begans:

"Listen Snyder; Don't ever write me another letter like this one. I
DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THIS KIND OF CRAP FROM YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. This is
the second time you have shot off at me like this - AND THE LAST."

The passage you refer to states that Hank admits to drinking a few
beers for a few weeks and that he found it negative and quit. This is
the only written record I have seen of his drinking during the early
40's thru his death. Interviews years ago I had with his surviving
relatives indicated multiple year periods of abstinence followed by
binges. He was reportedly abstinent for the entire period of his third
marriage to a Houston Oil heiress whom was the "real love of his
life". She died of a lung disease and this is where he obtained the
money for the $40,000 chicken coup I discussed earlier.

With respect to the implication that HAnk's drinking somehow voided
his rights in the book, it is necessary to remember that nobody has
the right to illegally deprieve someone of their property because
someone is drinking. Of course the situation which Bill found himself
was that someone drinking would not be good PR for a book on how to
stop. However the agreement that neither would take a royalty
deprieves Hank's living relatives of a rightful inheritence. There is
a solution to this issue which would cost a fraction of one years
expeses paid for the present copyright litigation or alot less than
one year's royalty payout to others.

-merton





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, <greatcir@c...> wrote:
>
> In 1947 Hank Parkhurst wrote a letter to Clarence Snyder regarding
their "porcelain moulding" business complaining that Clarence was
"messed up" with AA and other things and was not working the porcelain
business.
>
> What was the porcelain moulding business and why was Hank relying so
heavily on Clarence to make the sales? The letter suggests that
Clarence might be the only salesman.
>
> There is another letter to Clarence in 1946 where Hank admits to
drinking beer for a couple of weeks so I assume he was still doing
this in 1947.
>
> God Bless,
>
> Pete K.
>

0 -1 0 0
3023 Tom Hickcox
Re: Memories of Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) Memories of Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) 1/3/2006 3:00:00 AM

At 10:08 12/24/2005 , Glenn Chessnut wrote:

>Ralph's niece told me that he died because a doctor gave him an
>airsickness shot with a needle that had been improperly steriziled (that
>was back in the days when doctor's reused hypodermic needles over and over
>again). Apparently the person on whom the doctor had used the needle the
>previous time had hepatitis. They rushed Ralph to the hospital in
>Owensboro, Kentucky, where one of the doctors was an AA member, and the
>only physician whom Ralph trusted by now.

I am old enough to have been given many shots with reused needles. It is
my recollection that normal autoclaving killed almost all of the bacteria
and viruses but higher temperatures were needed to kill certain ones like
some forms of hepatitis and most autoclaves did not do this, so standard
practice of the day did not eliminate this risk. My physician in the
period of the late 50s/early 60s had an autoclave that was capable of
achieving conditions that completely sterilized the needles.

My point is that Fr. Pfau was not infected due to neglect per se. My
understanding is that needles used on hepatitis patients were either not
used again or sterilized in autoclaves capable of destroying the hepatitis
vector.

Tommy in Baton Rouge


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3024 Rob White
Re: James Houck and AA in Towson James Houck and AA in Towson 1/6/2006 9:07:00 AM

I have been reading these entires with some mild amusement.

Having lived in the Towson area for most of my life (age 54) and having been a
grateful member of AA for over 25 years,
I know who this James H is but he is a non-entity to Baltimore or Towson AA.

He does not go to meetings and the old timers don't know him (except by the odd
story about him).
I learned more about him from the Time Magazine article last year then anything
else.

I say God Bless him- but don't look to him for anything other than an eccentric
old fellow that has some interesting stories.

But he is no AA icon around here or anywhere else.

Rob W.

>>> glennccc@sbcglobal.net 1/3/2006 4:50 PM >>>
A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History of
Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA meeting at
Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which was recently passed on
to me.

James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by certain people
in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from modern AA.

In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the Oxford
Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were participating in
their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is no sign that he had any
accurate inside information about how early AA actually worked with alcoholics.
All he would have known was what was being said by the Oxford Group members who
were hostile to the special mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the
early AA people out of the Oxford Group. We already knew that.

What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about James H.'s
claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of being an expert witness
on the way modern AA operates. James says that he has "spoken at numerous AA
meetings and conferences," which means that Wally P. and others have taken him
around to give talks to AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of
people does not give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group
actually works with alcoholics.

James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the Towson
Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know anything about how a
real AA meeting would operate in the modern period.

JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material in the
Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the way Wally has
been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck to back up his own claims
about the history of early AA. See http://www.aabacktobasics.com/

In response to Wally's questioning in
http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsforjamesh.ht\
ml
James Houck said:
______________________________

"Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA program of
the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group program of the 1930's.
AA has changed over the years -- today's program is very different from the
"original." For the past 20 years, I have been speaking at AA meetings,
workshopps and conventions about the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety
date is 12/12/34. I am a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as
did many other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard,
Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with alcoholics as
well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my granddaughter to AA
meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already changed. It wasn't anything like
the original program. While I was able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the
Towson Methodist church. There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I
have spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message
primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share guidance
with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement home where I am
living."
______________________________

When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of Maryland, at
Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in Towson to see what that AA
group was like, and to see how closely connected James H. actually was to the AA
program there. Are the Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the
United States? Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he
know lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going to
regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson AA accurate?

What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that James H. has
been making. Although James H. claims that he has attended numerous AA meetings
at the Towson United Methodist Church, and is very familiar with the way their
AA meetings function, JM could not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even
knew who James was.

He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group which was
doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of people sober. It
was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant, ineffectual, and demoralized
people who knew nothing about AA's Historic Heritage, and who were achieving
only a 1% to 3% success rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know
anything about modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has
been getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA.

There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James H.'s
testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have discovered needs
to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply going to give JM's report
to Kurtz as he wrote it:

______________________________

Hi, Glenn!

Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James Houck,
authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking my opinion about
his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford Group. In the past, I have
read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an authentic or accredited historian! I
rely on my old friend, Ernie Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the
item along to Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between
the claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure in AA,
yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD, Methodist Church is
emphasized.

I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in Bethesda,
MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all of whom live in
this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a meeting of what Wally
presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size the old guy up in person, or at
least learn a bit more first hand. On receiving my report, Ernie feels you might
find this information of interest.

*********

Ernie!

I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to "James
Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in a maiden voyage
onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has provided information, and I have
joined, but I haven't figured the interface out just yet. I might send the
information I'm sending you now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else
on the list might be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery,
and I should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the nonsense.

I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on Thursday, December
27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of which 8 identified themselves
as "home group members." Most of the rest were young newcomers, as the meeting
is a newcomers meeting, rotating weekly through discussion of the first three
Steps. There were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works,
Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in to give a
20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year of sobriety, and one
17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and that was it.

I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for
conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the Back to
Basics movement.

They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former member until he
recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the group. He has apparently
come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one knew for sure.

They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was asking
about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative.

The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group veteran
who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know something about
all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw
little utility to pursuing this matter any more.

My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate numbers cited
for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own extensive experience in
traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is clearly alive and well, at least
in my own environment ....

That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after Bill Wilson
did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance through the Oxford
Movement, is a minor curiosity.

**********

I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you, again,
for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for me. And I hope
you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New Year.

JM




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3025 JOHN e REID
Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/3/2006 10:59:00 PM

The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA Around
Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion.

Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how much
alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA Number 5" in
Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA".

Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of fairly new
folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in the food, it is ALL
cooked out!!!!"

For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the results of
that previous study?

All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3026 Glenn Chesnut
Send individual comments directly to the group member Send individual comments directly to the group member 1/7/2006 5:34:00 PM

To the members of the AAHistoryLovers:

The way the Pending Messages are displayed in the Yahoo Group system, there is
no way I can forward a message to another member of the group simply by pushing
a button.

I would have to cut the message out, and paste it into an email on my own
email system and then send that to the other group member.

So if you want to contact another group member in order to comment on that
person's posting, it would be greatly appreciated if you could look up the other
person's email address (which is sometimes time consuming to look up, but is
what I would have to do) and send your message to that person directly.

I'm beginning to get overwhelmed with multitudes of messages sent in to the
Pending Messages board which are in fact messages to other individual group
members instead of messages for general posting. I know that in chat groups
there are a lot of back and forth messages like that, but please remember that
one of the central guidelines of the AAHistoryLovers is that we do not want to
function as a chat group.

Thanks much!

Glenn Chesnut (moderator)
South Bend, Indiana, USA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3027 ArtSheehan
RE: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 1/3/2006 11:21:00 AM

The chain of messages on the term "real alcoholic" seems to be
straying away from history. There are certain terms that are likely
best to avoid in this forum since they tend to lead far more to
endless un-retractable debate over semantics rather than clarity.
Among those tedious terms are "recovered vs recovering", "spiritual vs
religious" and "real alcoholic vs problem drinker or vs whatever."

Now having said that, let's try to provide a historical perspective
that culminated in the 12&12 (1953) and originated in the Big Book
(1935-1939). It is the matter of AA laying out the welcome mat for
those prospects who were not low bottom drunks (as were the very early
members).

In the 12&12 essay on Step One (page 23) it states:

"Alcoholics Anonymous," published when our membership was small, dealt
with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate alcoholics tried A.A.,
but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of
hopelessness.

It is a tremendous satisfaction to record that in the following years
this changed. Alcoholics who still had their health, their families,
their jobs, and even two cars in the garage, began to recognize their
alcoholism. As this trend grew, they were joined by young people who
were scarcely more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that
last ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone
through. Since Step One requires an admission that our lives have
become unmanageable, how could people such as these take this Step?

There are quite a few mentions of the term "real alcoholic" in the Big
Book as noted below --[in brackets for emphasis]--

Page 21: But what about the --[real alcoholic]--? He may start off as
a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard
drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose
all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.

Pages 23-24: The tragic truth is that if the man be a --[real
alcoholic]--, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a
certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a
state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely
no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically
every case long before it is suspected.

Page 30

MOST OF us have been unwilling to admit we were --[real alcoholics]--.
No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his
fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers
have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could
drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will
control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every
abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing.
Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.

We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that
we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion
that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.

We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control
our drinking. We know that no --[real alcoholic]-- ever recovers
control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but
such intervals-usually brief-were inevitably followed by still less
control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible
demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type
are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period
we get worse, never better.

Page 31: Despite all we can say, many who are --[real alcoholics]--
are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of
self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves
exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is
showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face
and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we
have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!

Page 34: As we look back, we feel we had gone on drinking many years
beyond the point where we could quit on our will power. If anyone
questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try
leaving liquor alone for one year. If he is a --[real alcoholic]-- and
very far advanced, there is scant chance of success. In the early days
of our drinking we occasionally remained sober for a year or more,
becoming serious drinkers again later. Though you may be able to stop
for a considerable period, you may yet be a potential alcoholic. We
think few, to whom this book will appeal, can stay dry anything like a
year. Some will be drunk the day after making their resolutions; most
of them within a few weeks.

Page 35: We told him what we knew of alcoholism and the answer we had
found. He made a beginning. His family was re-assembled, and he began
to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking.
All went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life.
To his consternation, he found himself drunk half a dozen times in
rapid succession. On each of these occasions we worked with him,
reviewing carefully what had happened. He agreed he was a --[real
alcoholic]-- and in a serious condition. He knew he faced another trip
to the asylum if he kept on. Moreover, he would lose his family for
whom he had a deep affection.

Page 92: If you are satisfied that he is a --[real alcoholic]--, begin
to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your
own experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first
drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this
stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss
it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his
own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his
drinking, tell him that possibly he can-if he is not too alcoholic.
But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little
chance he can recover by himself.

Page 109: Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is
unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets
entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is
positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without
your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he
is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He
is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like
other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day
also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious
drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over
the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately
next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks
of a --[real alcoholic]--. Perhaps he can still tend to business
fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among
ourselves, "He wants to want to stop."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----

Des,

Let me try my hand at answering your question.

It was common in early AA to distinguish between three different kinds
of drinkers. Let's call them Types 1, 2, and 3 for the purposes of
this discussion. Sometimes they were called (Type 1) "social
drinkers," (Type 2) "heavy drinkers," and (Type 3) "alcoholics."
Richmond Walker, in Twenty Four Hours a Day (1948), referred to the
last category as "merry go round drinkers."

Mrs. Marty Mann makes this same kind of distinction in the book she
wrote for the National Council on Alcoholism. Our South Bend good old
timer, Brownie, makes that three-fold distinction in the material
about him in The St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad Man. Dr. Jellinek
(and many others) tried to make distinctions of this same sort during
the 1940's and 1950's.

It had been noted that some alcoholics were clearly drinking
alcoholically from the time they took their very first drink. The
first time they had a chance at a bottle (even if they were just
teenagers), they drank themselves rip roaring drunk, and they just
kept on drinking that way from that point on.

But other alcoholics started out as social drinkers, and then
gradually began drinking more and more, until finally after enough
years they crossed some invisible line, and became clearly and
unambiguously alcoholic drinkers.

Psychologists who study alcoholism and public health agencies which
are concerned with alcoholism have found that they also have to make
some kind of distinction between people who are drinking a lot, and
people who are alcoholics. You cannot measure the amount of alcohol
that is consumed and use that to determine who is a heavy drinker and
who is an alcoholic.

All sorts of fancy definitions have been dreamed up by psychologists,
medical doctors, and so on, to try to identify where you make the
division between Type Two heavy drinkers (or "alcohol abusers" or
whatever term you're using) and Type Three genuine alcoholics.

Let us not get into quarrels about what precise terminology to use
here, because there have been a variety of different terms used over
the years.

But as far as I can see, the basic distinction historically has been a
simple one. A Type Two heavy drinker (or alcohol abuser, or whatever)
who is given sufficient reason to stop drinking, will be able to stop
on his own simply by using will power. Maybe his doctor puts him on a
heart medication and tells him that he has to take the medication to
save his life, and that this medication cannot be mixed with alcohol
in the system. Or something in his life puts him in a situation where
he will get in enormous trouble if he does not quit. So he simply
grits his teeth, and stops drinking. Just like that. Permanently.

A Type Three true alcoholic will find that he cannot stop drinking on
his own, by his own will power, no matter how serious the consequences
are going to be. His wife says that she will leave him, his employer
says that he will fire him, the judge says that he will give him
twenty years in prison the next time he drives drunk, his doctor says
that he will be dead within a year if he keeps on drinking. But no
matter what it is, a true alcoholic will STILL keep drinking, in spite
of all that, if he is trying to do it by himself by his own willpower.
If you listen to tape recordings of the good old timers, you will find
numerous examples of alcoholics whose drinking was destroying them
totally, who still could not stop on their own, simply by using will
power.

One thing which muddies the waters nowadays, is that (beginning with
Dr. Jellinek's famous chart back in the 1940's) the experts on
alcoholism have assembled data on the way that the disease of
alcoholism progresses, where they can spot the symptoms of Type Three
chronic alcoholism much earlier than they could in the 1930's and
1940's. So nowadays we can sometimes identify a person as definitely
a chronic alcoholic early in the progression of the disease, and send
that person off to AA, and save that person an awful lot of misery and
heartbreak, EVEN THOUGH in early AA they would not have allowed that
person to attend AA meetings because they would have felt that this
person's drinking did not qualify him or her to be a "true alcoholic"
yet.

So is this particular individual a Type Two heavy drinker who is
getting himself or herself in trouble, and maybe needs some
encouragement to quit doing that from a psychotherapist or someone
like that?

Or is this particular individual a Type Three alcoholic EARLY in the
progression of the disease, who hasn't gotten himself or herself in
major trouble yet, but who nevertheless is going to need AA in order
to quit? In current AA jargon, we would sometimes call this kind of
person a "high bottom" drunk.

So what Fiona was asking was, were the people in that statistical
table who went to AA meetings for a year and then quit going to
meetings but were still sober even five years later, actually Type
Three alcoholics? Or were they Type Two heavy drinkers who got sober
in AA meetings, but actually would have been able to get sober all on
their own anyway, just by using their own willpower?

In other words, were they Type Two heavy drinkers who had been
misdiagnosed as early stage Type Three alcoholics?

The issue at stake is, is it EVER safe for a Type Three genuine
alcoholic to quit going to meetings? If they quit going to meetings,
will Type Three alcoholics ALWAYS inevitably go back to their
alcoholic drinking sooner or later? The good old timers in my part of
Indiana say (on the basis of their many years of experience) that Type
Three genuine alcoholics will ALWAYS go back to drinking eventually if
they quit going to AA meetings, with the one exception that a few do
manage to use church going as a substitute for AA meetings, and can
stay sober that way.

Fiona's question is not some nit picking question about numbers and
statistics, but a word of warning about something which could cost
alcoholics their lives if they make the wrong decision. Fiona is
warning all of us (based in her case of her knowledge of Irish
alcoholics): do NOT assume on the basis of those 3 and 5 year survival
rate statistics which were recently posted that you will have some
hope of staying sober if you quit going to AA meetings.

Given the fact that Fiona's Irish alcoholics and my own Hoosier
alcoholics here in Indiana seem to suffer the same fate if they quit
going to AA meetings, I would advise anyone reading these AAHL
postings to take Fiona's warning with deadly seriousness. Her warning
is simple: don't use those 3 and 5 year survival statistics to play
games with your life, if you are a true alcoholic.

I would add an additional warning to hers. Alcoholism is cunning,
baffling, and powerful. Also patient, sneaky, and lying. Many a true
alcoholic here in my part of Indiana has gone to AA meetings and
stayed sober for a long time (maybe even ten years of more) until the
voice of Mr. Alcoholism inside that person's head has started
murmuring, "You know, I haven't had any trouble staying off the booze
these past ten years, and you know, I'm not really like some of these
other people in the AA meetings. I'm more intelligent than they are,
have more will power and self control. I never fell as low as they
fell. Maybe I'm not really an alcoholic at all. Maybe I was just a
heavy drinker, you know, somebody who just got carried away sometimes.
But I'm so much older and wiser now. You know, I think it would be
safe now, after ten years, to go out and have a little social drink."

We have a lot of retreads here in Hoosier AA who let themselves listen
to that lying voice inside their heads, and went back out drinking,
and then had to suffer years of misery before they finally came
dragging themselves back in the doors of AA, admitting finally, "O.K.,
I guess that I (even I) actually am an alcoholic of some sort, the
kind who needs AA meetings if I want to live instead of dying."

I should also say that the people in Indiana who go back out and try
it again after ten years or so, are people who tell us later on that
in fact they never worked the steps, even though they went to
meetings. It is particularly doing a really thorough and deep
reaching Fourth Step which is vital if you want people to give you the
ultimate accolade at your funeral, and say with enormous respect in
their voices, "he died sober," "she died sober."

So to Fiona's warning, I will add my own. Don't use those 3 and 5
year survival rate statistics which were posted to play games with
your life. Keep on going to meetings. Keep up constant contact with
your fellow AA members. Do a real Fourth Step and ferret out all of
the resentment and fear in your life, and figure out what all your
character defects are, so you won't be tempted to look down your nose
at ANYBODY in an AA meeting, thinking yourself superior to that person
in any way whatsoever. http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html

And remember that EVEN IF someone could prove that 33-1/3 % of genuine
alcoholics could eventually quit going to AA meetings and still be
sober 3 years later, or even 5 years later, that is till playing
Russian roulette with a six gun with four chambers loaded. And 5
years isn't 10 years or 15 years.

Glenn C.
South Bend, Indiana, U.S.
(A REAL alcoholic, sober today ONLY by the grace of God and the help
of the people in this fellowship, who is not planning on jumping out
of the lifeboat, thank you!)

0 -1 0 0
3028 mertonmm3
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 1/4/2006 7:47:00 PM

A response to Message 3012 from Dave Smith
<pmds@aol.com> (pmds at aol.com)

From <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)

An interesting point but I take issue with your primary premise that
alcoholism is a purely physical disease like diabetes. All of what you
say is true as Dr. Silkworth points out in his Opinion and the
"phenomenon of craving" which develops after the first drink. However
you teach a diabetic to adjust his insulin level and diet and "problem
solved". If you tell the alcoholic just not to take the first drink
(after hospitalization) because thats where the phenomenon begans and
problem solved right??????? Its common sense, no first drink no
problem????? You tell someone allergic to strawberries, no
strawberries and they'll usually avoid them, same thing with booze,
right?????

The real problem with alcohol is in the mind, NOT THE BODY. Its the
insanity of being without any ability not to take the first drink
after a period of sobriety. Its the mental obsession not the
compulsion that requires 15 month long trips to the treatment center.

Thats what the chapter "There is a Solution" tells us.

Much of what you say is true. Bill never says AA is the only way.
Anyone who reads the Jerry McAuley books from the late 1800's knows
that people were recovering from alcoholism thru spiritual experience
long before AA. And Bill also supported research into any medical
research that would help. If you look closely at his life you'll see
that Bill formally divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE
TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really
what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also
what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin
B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism.

I'm not a big Bill Wilson flagwaver. Please understand that I have
serious issues. But with alcoholism its not a football game between
the AA's and the non-AA's. Its Alcoholics who have decided thats what
they are (or whatever label you want to put on someone who can't stop
drinking when they want to) vs. the mental obsession that somehow,
someway, we'll be able to drink without the consequenses of the one
way elevator ride.

The easy way (my opinion) is to become like a leaf on the ground
fighting nothing for a year surrounded by people who have succeeded
somehow. No fight, just let the wind blow us around for awhile. (Of
course this is always when the significant other we've been waiting
for our entire life shows up and we entangle ourselves - or "we're
just going to be friends" - or "listen, its just sex, not a
relationship". We're complicated. Our minds tell us strange things
which we actually believe (but nobody else does).

-merton

______________________________________

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Dave Smith pmds@a... wrote:
>
> It seems to me that trying to make alcoholics different from heavy
drinkers is an attempt to make black and white out of something which
is most likely gray.
>
> The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that
alcoholism is primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility.
Physiologically alcoholics metabolize alcohol and mind altering
chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of the population (in the United
States, in other places it is higher or lower.
>
> It appears that the rate of alcoholism is lower in cultures that
have had alcohol the longest period of time and higher in those
cultures that have had it the least amount of time.) See for example
Under the Influence by Milam et al.
>
> If, therefore, alcoholism is a real disease then it should be
viewed as a real disease.
>
> Some diabetics can control their diabetes by diet, others by
diet and oral medication and others by multiple daily injections.
Each one is a "real" diabetic, it is the disease itself that is
different in different people. Some milder, some more severe.
>
> Some alcoholics get sober in their teens, others in their 80's
and all ages in between. Are we to decide which are real alcoholics?
Logically it would seem that those in their 80's may have a milder
form of alcoholism as they were able to drink longer, function and
not die. The younger ones perhaps have a very severe form and
therefore are unable to continue.
>
> We in AA talk a lot about spirituality and higher powers, but I
think we forget about the miraculous nature of sobriety. The
"spiritual awakening," the "moment of clarity," the "surrender," the
"epiphany," the "emotional/spiritual/psychological bottom," the
"moment of nonjudgmental awareness" or whatever name it is
given...the moment when we receive the gift of the ability to
> not drink is what it is.
>
> Some have this moment and go to AA, some to church, some
nowhere and some other places too innumerable to mentions. In AA we
say "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps."
However, we know that Bill had his before any steps whatever. I had
mine the day before I entered a treatment center and I didn't even
know what the steps were. We all have many,
> many stories about people's spiritual awakening and as the person
who had it describes it, we see what they are talking about because
it happened to us.
>
> Going to AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than not going
to AA guarantees continued drinking. I came to AA for the first time
in 1984 and I have been sober ever since. I went to at least 1,000
meetings in my first two years. Since that time I have never had a
period of time more than a week or so that I have not gone to meetings
and I generally go to 3-5 meetings per week. That doesn't
necessarily keep me sober, it is just what I do. I love the people,
the experience, the blending, the hope, the tears, the
laughter....the whole package. Many do not do what I do. It doesn't
make them better or worse or more or less likely to drink. At least
that is my opinion based on my experience.
>
> Having said all of the above, I'm not sure this "Real or Fake
> Alcoholic/heavy drinker" is an appropriate topic for the AA
HistoryLovers. I think the study is very interesting and not
surprising to me, but to try and figure this out does not seem
"figureoutable." There is tremendous wisdom in the phrase "You're an
alcoholic when you say you are."
>
> Dave Smith
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

0 -1 0 0
3029 Doug B.
Re: Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/7/2006 2:28:00 AM

I got this guide online:
http://www.betterendings.org/Recipes/cookal.htm


Cooking With Alcohol

When cooking with beer or alcohol, does all of the alcohol evaporate?

No. The following chart should be helpful.

PREPARATION METHOD / AlcoholRetained

No heat application, immediate consumption 100%

No heat application, overnight storage 70%

Alcohol ingredient added to boiling liquid, and removed from heat 85%

Flamed 75%

Baked, approximately 25 minutes, alcohol ingredient
on surface of mixture (not stirred in) 45%

Baked/simmered, alcohol ingredient stirred into mixture
15 minutes / 40%
30 minutes / 35%
1 hour / 25%
1.5 hours / 20%
2 hours / 10%
2.5 hours / 5%

source: Minnesota Nutrition Council Newsletter

What can I substitute if a recipe calls for beverages with alcohol?

The best, but not always the easiest solution, is to find another recipe
without alcohol that will fill the need. If the beer or wine is a major
ingredient in your recipe, or if a large quantity is called for, it
makes sense not to attempt a substitute. The results could be
unpleasant. In such a case, look for another recipe.

Often the alcohol required will be a small amount, such as a couple of
tablespoons, and in this case there are several substitutions:

In recipes having plenty of seasonings, plan water may be substituted.
Both the alcohol and a substitute may be omitted if the liquid isn't
needed for a gravy or sauce.

When cooking with fish, an equal amount of bottled or fresh clam or fish
stock may be substituted. Just remember, bottled clam juice and some
fish stocks are high in salt. Some people use white grape juice with
fish.

Other substitutes include chicken or beef broth

Juice such as lemon, lime, apple or cranberry are all possibilities.

Reprinted from Fall 99 Issue Byerly's Bag


Doug B.


JOHN e REID wrote:

> The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA
> Around Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion.
>
> Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how
> much alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA
> Number 5" in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA".
>
> Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of
> fairly new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in
> the food, it is ALL cooked out!!!!"
>
> For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the
> results of that previous study?
>
> All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> + Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3030 Bill Lash
RE: Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/7/2006 8:37:00 AM

Does anyone know the name of this AA Grapevine article or when it was
published? Thanks.




-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of JOHN e REID
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:00 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Alcohol left in food after cooking


The Editorial Staff: The Grapevine, The Pathfinder, The Reviver, AA Around
Australia, NZ Mainstay, Bristol Fashion.

Some years ago the Grapevine published the results of a study on how much
alcohol is retained in food after cooking. As Russ J who was "AA Number 5"
in Australia used the say, "the half truths in AA".

Recently I heard some fairly newly sober saying to a gathering of fairly
new folk recently, "do not worry about how much alcohol is in the food, it
is ALL cooked out!!!!"

For the benefit of us all, would you be so kind as to re-print the results
of that previous study?

All the very best for 2006, Thanks and Kind Regards, John R


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3031 ny-aa@att.net
DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/5/2006 11:37:00 PM

If we are going to discuss the distinction that is made between
"Alcohol Abuse [305]" and "Alcohol Depencence [303.9]" it is useful
to look at the diagnostic definitions in what is called "DSM-IV" or
"Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4"
Here are two references to those definitions.

Note: NIAAA (National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism)
only classifies "Alcohol Depencence" as "Alcoholism" The two
diagnoses are mutually exclusive.

----------------------
----------------------
http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/alcohol/diagnosis.shtml

Diagnosis

Friends and family members of the alcoholic are often the first to
notice problems and seek professional help. Many times, the alcoholic
does not realize the severity of the problem or denies it. Some signs
cannot go unnoticed, such as loss of a job, family problems, or citations
for driving under the influence of alcohol. Dependence is indicated by
symptoms such as withdrawal, injuries from accidents, or blackouts.

The American Psychiatric Association has developed strict criteria
for the clinical diagnosis of abuse and dependence. The Diagnostic
and Statistical Manual—IV (DSM-IV) defines abuse as:

* A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically
significant impairment or distress, as manifested by one (or more)
of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:
1. recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major
role obligations at work, school, home (e.g., repeated absences or
poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related
absences, suspensions, or expulsions from school; neglect of children
or household)
2. recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically
hazardous (e.g., driving an automobile or operating a machine when
impaired by substance use)
3. recurrent substance-related legal problems (e.g., arrests for
substance-related disorderly conduct)
4. continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent
social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects
of the substance (e.g., arguments with spouse about consequences of
intoxication, physical fights)
* The symptoms have never met the criteria for Substance Dependence
for this class of substances.

[DSM-IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4.
Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association (AMA). 1994.]

Most often, abuse is diagnosed in individuals who recently began using
alcohol. Over time, abuse may progress to dependence. However, some
alcohol users abuse alcohol for long periods without developing
dependence.

Dependence is suspected when alcohol use is accompanied by signs
of the following:

* Abuse
* Compulsive drinking behavior
* Tolerance
* Withdrawal

DSM-IV defines dependence as:

* A maladaptive pattern of substance use, leading to clinically
significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more)
of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:
1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
o a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve
intoxication or desired effect
o markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount
of substance
2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
o the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance
o the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve
or avoid withdrawal symptoms
3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer
period than was intended
4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down
or control substance use
5. a great deal of time is spent in activities to obtain the substance,
use the substance, or recover from its effects
6. important social, occupational or recreational activities are given
up or reduced because of substance use
7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a
persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is
likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance
(e.g., continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made
worse by alcohol consumption)

[DSM-IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ed. 4.
Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association (AMA). 1994.]

----------------------
----------------------
http://www.fpnotebook.com/PSY91.htm

# DSM-IV Alcohol Abuse (1 or more criteria for over 1 year)

1. Role Impairment (e.g. failed work or home obligations)
2. Hazardous use (e.g. Driving while intoxicated)
3. Legal problems related to alcohol use
4. Social or interpersonal problems due to alcohol

# DSM-IV Alcohol Dependence (3 criteria for over 1 year)

1. Tolerance (increased drinking to achieve same effect)
2. Alcohol Withdrawal signs or symptoms
3. Drinking more than intended
4. Unsuccessful attempts to cut down on use
5. Excessive time related to alcohol (obtaining, hangover)
6. Impaired social or work activities due to alcohol
7. Use despite physical or psychological consequences

# References

1. (1994) DSM-IV, APA, p. 181-3

0 -1 0 0
3032 Russ S
Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/5/2006 3:20:00 PM

Dear History Lovers,

I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey. I would like to find
the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to Stepping Stones. Any
suggestions on where to start?

Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3033 Mitchell K.
Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/7/2006 6:15:00 PM

PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of
defining guideline for alcoholism one must remember
the following: The DSM does state that a person can
remain in total remission from alcohol dependence and
continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit the
criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence.
Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does not
define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the
criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous and
the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent.

From: Mitchell K. <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

________________________

Note from the moderator:

Mitchell K. is one of our best AA historians, and an expert on the history of
early AA in the Cleveland area, where there were more AA members at one point in
early AA history than in either Akron or the New York area. He is responding
here to two earlier messages.

Message 2973 "Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates" from Ernest Kurtz
<kurtzern@umich.edu> (kurtzern at umich.edu)contained an interesting recent
study by social scientists of how people who have been treated for alcoholism
are doing 3 and 5 years afterwards, measured against how many AA meetings they
have been attending.

Message 3031 "DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism)" from
<ny-aa@att.net> (ny-aa at att.net) laid out one of the standard definitions of
alcoholism used by social scientists, in this case the one currently used by
psychiatrists and psychotherapists in the U.S. for diagnostic purposes, to help
understand how modern social scientists would determine which people in a group
whom they were studying were actually alcoholics. This can help us to understand
the kinds of criteria used in the study in Message 2973.

Mitchell K. in this present message <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com) points out that NEITHER the social
scientists who made the 3 and 5 year study, NOR the psychiatrists who wrote the
DSM, were employing exactly the same kinds of definitions of "real alcoholism"
that are given in various places within the historic heritage of Alcoholics
Anonymous.

Mitchell's warning is important, and right on target.

The AAHistoryLovers is not the right kind of forum for attacking the social
scientists for not using AA definitions. We have worked hard over the years to
try to keep the AAHL from becoming just a chat group (there are already plenty
of AA chat groups on the internet).

Those members of the AAHL who are AA members simply need to remember that the
social scientists are not necessarily using AA definitions, as Mitchell K.
points out, and that any AA members reading articles written by social
scientists will need to take that into account in evaluating that data.

Glenn C. (moderator)

0 -1 0 0
3034 ArtSheehan
RE: James Houck and AA in Towson James Houck and AA in Towson 1/7/2006 7:02:00 PM

Unfortunately, I believe there is a much more serious and
disconcerting side to James H and his affiliation as the poster child
for the "Back to Basics" (B2B) organization.

B2B propagates revisionist AA history in a classic example of
manufacturing an idyllic scenario portraying the AA program of
Recovery in the "old days" and then manufacturing a contrasting
scenario bemoaning that "today" it's all different and has gone
downhill.

B2B engages in four practices that I find very troubling in that they
present fiction as history. The B2B practices are: (1) portrayal of
the figurative as the literal (2) broad brush portrayal of the
exception as the rule (3) portrayal of simple associations as
established cause and effect and (4) portrayal of James H's duration
of dry time to be the equivalent of his degree of accuracy and breadth
of knowledge.

B2B claims that AA is currently experiencing a 5% (or less) success
rate. This is supposedly in contrast to a 50% (they used to claim 75%
or 90%) "success rate" that AA allegedly enjoyed in the 1940s and 50s.
Their absurd assertion is unquestioningly being cited on web sites, in
literature, in academic papers and TV as established fact when it is
pure fiction.

The assertion that AA enjoyed 50%, 75% or 90% "success rates" in the
1940s and 50s is derived solely through selective semantic citation
(which is deficient in context) and is not statistically demonstrated.
There may have been some place at some time with that kind of success,
but to use it to paint a broad-brush overall projection of AA is
ridiculous.

Outside of a small number of instances, when AA was quite small, there
is no viable and verifiable body of records or statistics maintained
that would provide any type of reliable basis for stating any type of
overall AA "success rate." The same holds true today in terms of
asserting the erroneous 5% "success rate." The folks that make these
kinds of fatuous claims are driven by an agenda, not facts. All too
often, those making the claims do so as a disingenuous null hypothesis
that that someone else must disprove rather than them substantiating
their claims with factual evidence.

As a solution to their manufactured doom and gloom scenario, B2B
advocates the rather unremarkable hypothesis that Step choreography is
the determining factor in successful recovery. This is based on James
H's expert insight via the following gem of wisdom and experience on
B2B's web site:

"James provided Wally with three missing concepts from the "original"
program that allowed him to successfully "fly the plane." They were:
(1) the verbal Fourth Step (Moral Inventory), (2) the expanded Ninth
Step that included forgiveness as well as restitution, and (3) the
written Eleventh Step (Prayer and Meditation). He supplied Wally with
a four-page pamphlet, written in 1938 by a person who had attended
Oxford Group meetings with Dr. Bob Smith. This pamphlet, titled "How
to Listen to God," provided clear, concise directions on how to
conduct two-way prayer."

B2B first asserted that a verbal 4th Step should be done instead of a
written one. They later embellished this profound thesis with
suggesting the use of a particular "assets and liabilities list"
together with sponsor participation. This, along with a choreography
change to take the "forgiveness" the Big Book suggest doing in the 4th
Step and migrate it to the 9th Step (without passing GO or collecting
$200), and then squeeze in a little "quiet time" in the 11th Step
and, voila, your "success rates" soar from 5% to a 10-fold exponential
increase to %50% or higher.

To state that both the choreography and success rate fantasies are
built on meager threads is it putting it mildly. Even more meager are
any solid demonstration of facts. The notions are based on anecdotal
hearsay or the tortuous twisting of semantic nuance.

To give credence to this theater of the absurd, B2B has elevated and
shamelessly promoted James H to demigod status in terms of his
presumed qualifications to offer expert commentary on how AA and the
Oxford Group functioned 70 years ago. The sad fact is that quite a
number of AA members, who have no way of knowing any better, have been
swallowing it hook, line and sinker.

Over the years, the B2B web site has asserted some rather creatively
evolving "connections" that were supposed to have existed between
James H and Bill W (even a mention of Dr Bob).

The first was that "James attended Oxford Group meetings with Bill
Wilson in Frederick, MD from 1935-1937." James H lived in Maryland,
Bill W lived in NY (a mere 244 miles distant one-way today via
interstate highways).

During the great economic depression (which accounts for the latter
half of the 1930s) and during World War II (which accounts for the
beginning half of the 1940s) travel in the US was no simple matter,
even from Maryland to NY. I'm not sure whether B2B's use of the word
"together" is supposed to be interpreted to mean "at the same place,"
"at the same time" or both. In any event, it gives the impression that
James H and Bill W were frequently in contact with one another when I
don't believe any such thing actually occurred.

The next is a claim on B2B's web site that "Although James stayed in
the Oxford Group, he did have contact with the early A.A. fellowship
through Sam Shoemaker, a mutual friend of his and Bill Wilson's. Sam
Shoemaker was the rector of the Calvary Church in New York City, which
was the United States headquarters of the Oxford Group."

This probably took some real doing on James H's part in that Sam
Shoemaker left the Oxford Group in 1941 and evicted the Oxford Group
from Calvary Hall in NYC. So it would be interesting to find out just
how James H worked through Sam Shoemaker.

In response to a question of whether James H was a member of AA, the
answer was "Yes, he is as much a member of A.A. as anyone else who has
a desire to stop drinking. However, for James the compulsion to drink
was successfully removed on December 12, 1934. He has not had a drink
of alcohol or taken a mood altering substance (including nicotine)
since that day. ... James has an A.A. home group. It meets on Thursday
nights at the Towson, MD Methodist church."

In addition to the above is a statement that James H "was a member of
the Oxford Group in the 1930's and is a member of Moral Re-Armament
today."

So he has a home group where no one knows the "longest living" sober
member and he's a member of Moral Rearmament, which today is called
"Initiatives of Change" (perhaps James hadn't noticed). so it's
anything but clear how James H actually fits into the total picture.

In 1961, a book was published about a man named Ferdinand Waldo DeMara
Jr. The title of the book was "The Great Imposter." I can't help but
get the same sense that a similar book could be written about B2B and
James H.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob White
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:07 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] James Houck and AA in Towson

I have been reading these entires with some mild amusement.

Having lived in the Towson area for most of my life (age 54) and
having been a grateful member of AA for over 25 years,
I know who this James H is but he is a non-entity to Baltimore or
Towson AA.

He does not go to meetings and the old timers don't know him (except
by the odd story about him).
I learned more about him from the Time Magazine article last year then
anything else.

I say God Bless him- but don't look to him for anything other than an
eccentric old fellow that has some interesting stories.

But he is no AA icon around here or anywhere else.

Rob W.

>>> glennccc@sbcglobal.net 1/3/2006 4:50 PM >>>
A report from JM to Dr. Ernest Kurtz (author of *Not-God: A History
of Alcoholics Anonymous*) on James Houck and the Thursday night AA
meeting at Towson United Methodist Church in Towson, Maryland, which
was recently passed on to me.

James has been called upon frequently as an "expert witness" by
certain people in AA, to talk about "how different" early AA was from
modern AA.

In the 1930's James did not identify with the early AA people in the
Oxford Group. His name shows up on no early lists of people who were
participating in their special meetings for alcoholics. So there is
no sign that he had any accurate inside information about how early AA
actually worked with alcoholics. All he would have known was what was
being said by the Oxford Group members who were hostile to the special
mission to alcoholics, and were trying to push the early AA people out
of the Oxford Group. We already knew that.

What JM's report does is to raise some interesting questions about
James H.'s claims of being deeply involved with modern AA, and of
being an expert witness on the way modern AA operates. James says
that he has "spoken at numerous AA meetings and conferences," which
means that Wally P. and others have taken him around to give talks to
AA groups. But speaking in front of a large group of people does not
give anyone any inside information about how a modern AA group
actually works with alcoholics.

James H. also says however that "I attended AA meetings at the
Towson Methodist church," which is one of his few claims to know
anything about how a real AA meeting would operate in the modern
period.

JM, before visiting the Towson AA group, had first read the material
in the Back to Basics website about James Houck and Wally P., and the
way Wally has been using a carefully structured questioning of Houck
to back up his own claims about the history of early AA. See
http://www.aabacktobasics.com/

In response to Wally's questioning in
http://www.aabacktobasics.org/James%20H-Videos-Documentary/questionsfo
rjamesh.html James Houck said:
______________________________

"Much of the AA program came directly from the Oxford Group. The AA
program of the 1940's was similar in many ways to the Oxford Group
program of the 1930's. AA has changed over the years -- today's
program is very different from the "original." For the past 20 years,
I have been speaking at AA meetings, workshopps and conventions about
the "original" program of recovery. My Sobriety date is 12/12/34. I am
a recovered alcoholic. I got sober in the Oxford Group as did many
other alcoholics including Bill W., Dr. Bob, Fitz M., Rowland Hazard,
Victor Kitchen, Charles Clapp, Shep Cornell. I have worked with
alcoholics as well as non-alcoholics for the past 70 years. I took my
granddaughter to AA meetings in the 1980's. By then AA had already
changed. It wasn't anything like the original program. While I was
able to drive, I attended AA meetings at the Towson Methodist church.
There are 3-4 groups that meet there. Over the years, I have spoken at
numerous AA meetings and conferences. Today, I carry the message
primarily by telephone. I take people through the Steps, and I share
guidance with them. From time to time, AA's visit me at the retirement
home where I am living."
______________________________

When JM told Dr. Ernest Kurtz that he was visiting that part of
Maryland, at Ernie's suggestion he paid a visit to the AA group in
Towson to see what that AA group was like, and to see how closely
connected James H. actually was to the AA program there. Are the
Towson AA people typical of modern AA people in the United States?
Was James H. actively involved in their activities, and did he know
lots of ordinary everyday modern AA people there in Towson from going
to regular meetings with them? Was James H.'s description of Towson
AA accurate?

What JM found was fairly troublesome, in terms of the claims that
James H. has been making. Although James H. claims that he has
attended numerous AA meetings at the Towson United Methodist Church,
and is very familiar with the way their AA meetings function, JM could
not find anybody at the AA meeting there who even knew who James was.

He found the Towson AA group to be a smoothly functioning AA group
which was doing a good job, and getting (and keeping) an awful lot of
people sober. It was most definitely NOT some group of ignorant,
ineffectual, and demoralized people who knew nothing about AA's
Historic Heritage, and who were achieving only a 1% to 3% success
rate. Since this was James H.'s only claim to know anything about
modern AA practice, it seems very difficult to see where he has been
getting all of his negative attacks on modern AA.

There may be explanations which could partially rehabilitate James
H.'s testimony, but it seems to me that what JM and Dr. Kurtz have
discovered needs to be posted in the AAHistoryLovers. So I am simply
going to give JM's report to Kurtz as he wrote it:

______________________________

Hi, Glenn!

Friends in AA recently sent me biographical information on one James
Houck, authored by Wally Paton on the Back To Basics web site, asking
my opinion about his role in the development of AA out of the Oxford
Group. In the past, I have read a lot of the history, but I am NOT an
authentic or accredited historian! I rely on my old friend, Ernie
Kurtz, for any needed expertise. Thus, I passed the item along to
Ernie, asking for comment, especially on the inconsistency between the
claim that Houck has never wanted to be considered an historic figure
in AA, yet his long standing involvement in AA in Towson, MD,
Methodist Church is emphasized.

I am semi-retired, and am now near the end of a three week stay in
Bethesda, MD, spending the Holiday Season with our three children, all
of whom live in this area. Ernie and I decided I should drive up to a
meeting of what Wally presented as Houck's "home AA group", to size
the old guy up in person, or at least learn a bit more first hand. On
receiving my report, Ernie feels you might find this information of
interest.

*********

Ernie!

I am reporting in as your cub reporter concerning my field trip to
"James Houck's home AA group." I had hoped to report this material in
a maiden voyage onto the AAHistoryLover list. Glenn Chesnut has
provided information, and I have joined, but I haven't figured the
interface out just yet. I might send the information I'm sending you
now, but maybe next week, if you think anyone else on the list might
be interested. It's possible this is all just nincompoopery, and I
should just drop this whole matter, instead of sustaining the
nonsense.

I attended the Towson United Methodist Church AA meeting on
Thursday, December 27, 2005, 8:30 PM. There were 39 in attendance, of
which 8 identified themselves as "home group members." Most of the
rest were young newcomers, as the meeting is a newcomers meeting,
rotating weekly through discussion of the first three Steps. There
were 10 minutes of traditional starter material, e.g. How It Works,
Promises, Traditions, announcements. A young woman had been invited in
to give a 20 minute lead. One fresh newcomer, one person with a year
of sobriety, and one 17 year member talked for 10 minutes each, and
that was it.

I sought out members with 4, 17, 28, and 35 years of sobriety for
conversation. None had ever heard of James Houck, Wally Paton, or the
Back to Basics movement.

They all told me I must be looking for "_____," age 47, former
member until he recently went back to drinking after 20 years in the
group. He has apparently come back to AA elsewhere now, but no one
knew for sure.

They all postulated that perhaps [the elderly gentleman whom I was
asking about] might be _____'s father or uncle or other relative.

The 35 year man offered to put me into contact with a 41 year group
veteran who can no longer make it to the meeting, but who "might know
something about all this." I declined, as I needed to get back to
Bethesda, and, frankly, I saw little utility to pursuing this matter
any more.

My own personal conclusion is that Wally's very low success rate
numbers cited for AA seem completely off base and at odds with my own
extensive experience in traditional AA in Minnesota and Florida. AA is
clearly alive and well, at least in my own environment ....

That a man named James Houck put the cork in the jug a day after
Bill Wilson did likewise, and that they both found spiritual guidance
through the Oxford Movement, is a minor curiosity.

**********

I hope you can find something of interest in this report. Thank you,
again, for steering me toward the historical sites you pointed out for
me. And I hope you have had a pleasant and uplifting Christmas and New
Year.

JM




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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0 -1 0 0
3035 ny-aa@att.net
Early Triennial Survey Reports (?) Early Triennial Survey Reports (?) 1/7/2006 8:30:00 PM

I have collected the Triennial A.A. Membership Survey pamphlets (P48)
from the 1983 "The A.A. Member" thru the "2004 Membership Survey."
I doubt any of you will be able to send me the actual pamphlets but
I would appreciate help getting the contents the 1968, 1971, 1974,
1977, and 1980 Triennial Survey results in whatever form is available.

For direct e-mail to me:
sendto:ny-aa@att.net
Thanks.
______________________
En2joy! Tom En2ger

0 -1 0 0
3036 Jon Markle
Re: Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates 1/7/2006 8:54:00 PM

Thanks.

As a clinician, I measure the "problem" by NOT how much or how often a
person drinks, but rather, the consequences . . . What happens when alcohol is
taken into the body?

If there is significant disruption in any one area of a person's life (can we
say "unmanageable"? <GRIN>), then there is a problem.

A "heavy drinker" may function without any problems. Where as a very light or
occasional drinker (social?) may experience distinct difficulties that impacts
their life in negative ways, not attributable otherwise to any other thing than
the use of alcohol -- yet they continue to drink.

I believe the DSM-IV-TR is pretty clear about this definition and is not
dependent upon a specific "amount" or "frequency" as criteria for diagnosis.

This fits with your summary of the noted passages from the AA literature.

Jon Markle
Raleigh


> From: ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:21:14 -0600
> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Data on 3 and 5 year survival rates
>
> The chain of messages on the term "real alcoholic" seems to be
> straying away from history. There are certain terms that are likely
> best to avoid in this forum since they tend to lead far more to
> endless un-retractable debate over semantics rather than clarity.
> Among those tedious terms are "recovered vs recovering", "spiritual vs
> religious" and "real alcoholic vs problem drinker or vs whatever."
>
> Now having said that, let's try to provide a historical perspective
> that culminated in the 12&12 (1953) and originated in the Big Book
> (1935-1939). It is the matter of AA laying out the welcome mat for
> those prospects who were not low bottom drunks (as were the very early
> members).
>
> In the 12&12 essay on Step One (page 23) it states:
>
> "Alcoholics Anonymous," published when our membership was small, dealt
> with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate alcoholics tried A.A.,
> but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of
> hopelessness.
>
> It is a tremendous satisfaction to record that in the following years
> this changed. Alcoholics who still had their health, their families,
> their jobs, and even two cars in the garage, began to recognize their
> alcoholism. As this trend grew, they were joined by young people who
> were scarcely more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that
> last ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone
> through. Since Step One requires an admission that our lives have
> become unmanageable, how could people such as these take this Step?
>
> There are quite a few mentions of the term "real alcoholic" in the Big
> Book as noted below --[in brackets for emphasis]--
>
> Page 21: But what about the --[real alcoholic]--? He may start off as
> a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard
> drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose
> all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
>
> Pages 23-24: The tragic truth is that if the man be a --[real
> alcoholic]--, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a
> certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a
> state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely
> no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically
> every case long before it is suspected.
>
> Page 30
>
> MOST OF us have been unwilling to admit we were --[real alcoholics]--.
> No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his
> fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers
> have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could
> drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will
> control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every
> abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing.
> Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.
>
> We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that
> we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion
> that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
>
> We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control
> our drinking. We know that no --[real alcoholic]-- ever recovers
> control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but
> such intervals-usually brief-were inevitably followed by still less
> control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible
> demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type
> are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period
> we get worse, never better.
>
> Page 31: Despite all we can say, many who are --[real alcoholics]--
> are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of
> self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves
> exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is
> showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face
> and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we
> have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!
>
> Page 34: As we look back, we feel we had gone on drinking many years
> beyond the point where we could quit on our will power. If anyone
> questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try
> leaving liquor alone for one year. If he is a --[real alcoholic]-- and
> very far advanced, there is scant chance of success. In the early days
> of our drinking we occasionally remained sober for a year or more,
> becoming serious drinkers again later. Though you may be able to stop
> for a considerable period, you may yet be a potential alcoholic. We
> think few, to whom this book will appeal, can stay dry anything like a
> year. Some will be drunk the day after making their resolutions; most
> of them within a few weeks.
>
> Page 35: We told him what we knew of alcoholism and the answer we had
> found. He made a beginning. His family was re-assembled, and he began
> to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking.
> All went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life.
> To his consternation, he found himself drunk half a dozen times in
> rapid succession. On each of these occasions we worked with him,
> reviewing carefully what had happened. He agreed he was a --[real
> alcoholic]-- and in a serious condition. He knew he faced another trip
> to the asylum if he kept on. Moreover, he would lose his family for
> whom he had a deep affection.
>
> Page 92: If you are satisfied that he is a --[real alcoholic]--, begin
> to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your
> own experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first
> drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this
> stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss
> it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his
> own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his
> drinking, tell him that possibly he can-if he is not too alcoholic.
> But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little
> chance he can recover by himself.
>
> Page 109: Two: Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is
> unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets
> entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is
> positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without
> your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he
> is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat. He
> is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like
> other people. He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day
> also, to hold his nervousness in check. He is remorseful after serious
> drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But when he gets over
> the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately
> next time. We think this person is in danger. These are the earmarks
> of a --[real alcoholic]--. Perhaps he can still tend to business
> fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among
> ourselves, "He wants to want to stop."
>
> Cheers
> Arthur

0 -1 0 0
3037 Jim
Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" 1/8/2006 1:02:00 AM

"... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955."

This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and
various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine
until 1970. He died in January 1971.

The following articles were written in December 1955 and December
1970, respectively.

_____________________________

The Finest Gift of All
Christmas, 1955
Volume 12 Issue 7
December 1955

EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have
found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This
adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility.

What then are we going to do with this great gift of life?

Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know.
We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so
freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need
and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily
re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by
self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one receives."

For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift
of all.

Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be
the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever
known.

Bill W.

Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with
permission.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Christmas Message
Volume 27 Issue 7
December 1970

GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how
deeply we of AA realize this at Christmastime. Together, we count and
ponder our blessings of life, of service, of love.

In these distraught times, we have been enabled to find an
always-increasing measure of peace within ourselves. Together with all
here at AA's General Service Offices, Lois joins me in warmest
greetings to each and all of you, and me share our confident faith
that the year to come will be counted among the best that our
Fellowship has ever known.

Bill W.

Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1970). Reprinted with
permission.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@y...>
wrote:
>
If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally divorced AA in
1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID
NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal.
Its also what the enormous work he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin
B-3 and its effect on Alcoholism.

0 -1 0 0
3038 Bob McK.
RE: Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/8/2006 11:04:00 AM

I have saved an article titled "Food Science" published in Science News v.
136 11/11/89 reporting on the annual meeting of the American Dietetic
Association in Kansas City, MO. It states in part:

"Though simmering a pot roast at 185 deg.F for 2 1/2 hours removed 95% of
the red wine added, 25 minutes of baking at 375 deg.F retained 45% of the
dry sherry in scalloped oysters."

Other 'stics quoted are similar to the other article posted.

0 -1 0 0
3039 Liz Barrett, True Function of Virtue
Re: Alcohol left in food after cooking Alcohol left in food after cooking 1/8/2006 5:36:00 PM

Thank you for this information. Just FYI: This data was initially
established by FDA research; a study was subsequently published in
the April 1992 edition of the Journal of the American Dietetic
Association (JADA). I was able to find the citation on PubMed, but
JADA issues prior to 1993 are not available online. If anyone would
like to read the study at a library, the citation is: J Am Diet
Assoc. 1992 Apr;92(4):486-8. The authors are: Augustin J, Augustin
E, Cutrufelli RL, Hagen SR, Teitzel C. [Department of Food Science
and Toxicology, Food Research Center, Moscow, ID 83843.]


-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug B." <dougb@a...> wrote:
>
> I got this guide online:
> http://www.betterendings.org/Recipes/cookal.htm
>
>
> Cooking With Alcohol
>
> When cooking with beer or alcohol, does all of the alcohol
evaporate?
>
> No. The following chart should be helpful.
>
> PREPARATION METHOD / AlcoholRetained
>
> No heat application, immediate consumption 100%
>
> No heat application, overnight storage 70%
>
> Alcohol ingredient added to boiling liquid, and removed from heat
85%
>
> Flamed 75%
>
> Baked, approximately 25 minutes, alcohol ingredient
> on surface of mixture (not stirred in) 45%
>
> Baked/simmered, alcohol ingredient stirred into mixture
> 15 minutes / 40%
> 30 minutes / 35%
> 1 hour / 25%
> 1.5 hours / 20%
> 2 hours / 10%
> 2.5 hours / 5%
>
> source: Minnesota Nutrition Council Newsletter
>
> What can I substitute if a recipe calls for beverages with alcohol?
>
> The best, but not always the easiest solution, is to find another
recipe
> without alcohol that will fill the need. If the beer or wine is a
major
> ingredient in your recipe, or if a large quantity is called for, it
> makes sense not to attempt a substitute. The results could be
> unpleasant. In such a case, look for another recipe.
>
> Often the alcohol required will be a small amount, such as a
couple of
> tablespoons, and in this case there are several substitutions:
>
> In recipes having plenty of seasonings, plan water may be
substituted.
> Both the alcohol and a substitute may be omitted if the liquid
isn't
> needed for a gravy or sauce.
>
> When cooking with fish, an equal amount of bottled or fresh clam
or fish
> stock may be substituted. Just remember, bottled clam juice and
some
> fish stocks are high in salt. Some people use white grape juice
with
> fish.
>
> Other substitutes include chicken or beef broth
>
> Juice such as lemon, lime, apple or cranberry are all
possibilities.
>
> Reprinted from Fall 99 Issue Byerly's Bag
>
>
> Doug B.

0 -1 0 0
3040 Jon Markle
Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/8/2006 7:51:00 PM

That's a pretty wild claim.

Can you site the page and reference for this, please (using the DSM-IV-TR, which
is the most current edition).

I've always used the two books as mutually complementary. I have never found
any incongruence between the two approaches with diagnostics or treatment
approaches.

But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . . <GRIN>

Thanks,

Jon


> From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST)
> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence
> (Alcoholism)
>
> PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of
> defining guideline for alcoholism one must remember
> the following: The DSM does state that a person can
> remain in total remission from alcohol dependence and
> continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit the
> criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence.
> Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does not
> define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the
> criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous and
> the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent.
>
> From: Mitchell K. <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
3041 Tom Hickcox
Alcoholism and genetics Alcoholism and genetics 1/2/2006 5:09:00 PM

At 12:49 1/2/2006 , Dave Smith wrote:
____________________________

The vast majority of scientific evidence seems to say that alcoholism is
primarily a biogenetic inherited susceptibility. Physiologically alcoholics
metabolize alcohol and mind altering chemicals differently than 80 - 90% of
the population (in the United States,
____________________________

I have seen this assertion many times over these last two decades, but I have
never seen a citation from the scientific literature affirming it. Could
someone provide a citation?

Thanks for your post.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
3042 Larry
Sixth Tradition stories Sixth Tradition stories 1/5/2006 9:03:00 AM

Where might I find more about how the 6th Tradition of non-affiliation came to
pass. Some of those stories in the 12 & 12 are pretty
entertaining.

Bill W. says "...most alcoholics are bankrupt idealists."
Does that phrase pop up anyplace else? Thanks, Larry in NM.
_____________________________________

Tradition Six: "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A.
name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money,
property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose."

0 -1 0 0
3043 Rob White
NCADD and ASAM NCADD and ASAM 1/9/2006 4:13:00 PM

No doubt the misinformation they put out is confusing to some people.
However, AA cannot have an opinion on it.

On the other hand, NCADD (the national council on alcoholism and drug
dependence) http://www.ncadd.org and ASAM (the American Society of Addiction
Medicine) composed of physicians dedicated to the field of Addiction Medicine
http://www.asam.org are the two lead organizations regarding public education
and advocacy on alcoholism.

Their mission is to promote understanding of the illness and they have the most
scientifically reliable statistics.

I suggest wherever possible to direct people to their websites.

There will always be whirling dervishes. Best thing to do is - let 'em whirl!.

Rob W.

----------------------------------

>>> ArtSheehan@msn.com 1/7/2006 7:02 PM >>>

Unfortunately, I believe there is a much more serious and
disconcerting side to James H and his affiliation as the poster child
for the "Back to Basics" (B2B) organization. B2B propagates revisionist AA
history in a classic example of manufacturing an idyllic scenario portraying the
AA program of Recovery in the "old days" and then manufacturing a contrasting
scenario bemoaning that "today" it's all different and has gone downhill ....

0 -1 0 0
3044 HJFree
Second Tradition (long and short) Second Tradition (long and short) 1/10/2006 10:22:00 PM

Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3045 dayatatime1950
genetic models for alcoholism - citations from scientific literature genetic models for alcoholism - citations from scientific literature 1/10/2006 11:23:00 PM

Hi All -

The scientific literature abounds with research results regarding
the desease models for alcoholism. You can find excellent reviews
of these results written for general audiences in two books (both
available from Amazon.com):

Under the Influence : A Guide to the Myths and Realities of
Alcoholism (Paperback)by Milam and Ketchum

and

Beyond the Influence : Understanding and Defeating Alcoholism -- by
Katherine Ketcham, et al; Paperback by Ketchum et. al.

The second book is fairly recent and covers information reported
since the first book came out in the late 1970s. Neither qualifies
as a citation from the scientific literature but both are well
researched and cite leading references.

If you have access to a university library you might look at:

M. Heilig and M. Egli "Models for Alcohol Dependence: A Clinical
Perspective" in "Drug Discovery Today: Disease Models" Vol 2, No.
4, 2005.

I can provide this article as a pdf file to any interested members of
this group. It contains 45 citations to recent scientific
publications and will be a good starting point for anyone interested
in delving into the (voluminous) primary scientific literature
covering this subject.

Regards,

Russ Hillard
<dayatatime1950@yahoo.com>
(dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
3046 mr.grassroots
Harper Brothers printing of A.A. Comes of Age ??? Harper Brothers printing of A.A. Comes of Age ??? 1/8/2006 11:29:00 PM

Hello!

Hope this finds all well with everyone -

Just wondering if anyone has any information concerning the 1957
Harper Brothers printing of Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age?

Particularly trying to find out the number of these Harper's printings
and any other information concerning this effort.

Thany You in advance for your efforts on this search -

All the Best to You and Yours -
mr.grassroots

0 -1 0 0
3047 jlobdell54
James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties 1/10/2006 10:08:00 AM

From Jared L., Susan K., Bill H., Cheryl F., and Tommy H. -- comments on James
Houck
______________________________

From: "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

Art,
While I hold no particular brief for James Houck and none for
BtoB, I should point out that Bill and Fitz did go to OG House Parties in MD
(including Frederick) certainly in 1935-36 and possibly 1936-1937.

But the trips they took began at Fitz's farm in Cumberstone,
and while Fitz's son remembered Bill coming down and Bill and Fitz
spending time together at the farm before they went off house-partying (Fitz Jr
was 13-14 at the time), to the best of his knowledge no one named James Houck
was ever at the house, nor did he ever hear the name.

He has vivid memories of Bill and Fitz playing fiddle and banjo
and singing in the parlor, with Bill singing Northern songs and Fitz
singing Southern songs.

He remembers Jim B and Jim's cousin Churchy --but no James Houck.

He could of course have attended House Parties where Bill and Fitz were present
-- probably did -- but not with them in any strong sense of the word with.

-- Jared Lobdell
______________________________

From: "Susan Krieger" <susank@qis.net> (susank at qis.net)

James Houck came into the Baltimore AA office about 15 years ago or so. I
don't remember the exact year. His grandson is a member of AA. He wanted to
post his sobriety anniversary and would have made his sobriety older than
1935 or the beginning of AA. He said that he attended the Oxford Group. He
may have just started at that time to attend our local meetings. We would
not list his sobriety date to be older than AA. He has listed his name a
couple of times. I have had several calls about who was he. No one in this
area knew JH. I was at a Convention where in a count down he took away being
the oldest member of AA from our well known members. When he was in the
Office I asked him if he had ever had a drinking problem. His answer to me
was "I had an honesty problem."
Susan K.
______________________________

From: billherold1017@aol.com (billherold1017 at aol.com)

My name is Bill H. from Area 29 Maryland.

As chairperson of the archives, I interviewed James Houck for ten hours. The
only real thing I got out of the interview is that he knew Bill W and Fitz
M. ( Our Southern Friend) from going to Oxford group meetings in Frederick,
Maryland. Bill would come down to Fitz's house outside of Annapolis and they
would
drive to Frederick, Maryland.

James Houck never mentioned a thing about being a recovering alcoholic in AA
and to my recollection of the tape, never attended AA His only claim to
fame is to be one of the only living people to know Bill and Fitz All he talked
about was the Oxford Group and he really did not have much real regard for AA.

Bill H
______________________________

From: "Cheryl F" <learning3legacies@cox.net> (learning3legacies at cox.net)

That friend of James Houck's is Wally and yes he is still alive and for what
it's worth there is a grievance file through GSO about those workshops.
______________________________

From: Tommy H. <recoveredbygrace@yahoo.com> (recoveredbygrace at yahoo.com)

Several years ago I attended Wally`s Back to the Basics one day
workshop in Wilmington,NC.

James H. could not appear in person, but he did
address the crowd of around 100 AA men and women by
teleconference from the rest home he is staying at. I have never heard
James say he was an active member of AA, but I have heard him say he had
spoke in numerous one day workshops hosted by Wally P. Those workshops
were mostly attended by AA`s. I have copies of several tapes of some of
those talks. Those talk were given in several formats, including a
Christian Walk thru the steps of AA.

James seemed more interested in teaching others about Two Way Prayer
then talking about AA .

Tommy H.

0 -1 0 0
3048 Rob
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/9/2006 7:02:00 AM

182 Clinton St
Brooklyn heights, NY

_______________________

In response to Message 3032

From: "Russ S" <bubba062701@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006
Subject: Green Pond, NJ

Dear History Lovers,

I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.

I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to
Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?

Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ

0 -1 0 0
3049 trixiebellaa
Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 1/9/2006 8:50:00 AM

hi history lovers,

Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been
a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol
on his brain?"

One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of
information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the
chapters at the beginning of the book.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks from Tracy
The Barking Big Book Study Group
England

0 -1 0 0
3050 Jay Lawyer
Re: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 1/11/2006 11:16:00 AM

The thought and answer I come up with is 'because Henry P. wrote the chapter not
Bill.'

Jay


----- Original Message -----
From: trixiebellaa
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking


hi history lovers,

Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been
a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol
on his brain?"

One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of
information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the
chapters at the beginning of the book.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks from Tracy
The Barking Big Book Study Group
England


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3051 dayatatime1950
A better scientific citation regarding Genetics of Alcoholism A better scientific citation regarding Genetics of Alcoholism 1/11/2006 11:27:00 PM

Hi All -

I have had a lot of responses to my earlier posting regarding
scientific evidence of the genetics of alcoholism. As a result I have gone back
to the literature and looked for a more seminal publication with a more general
treatment. Truth be told, looking stuff up is kind of a hobby of mine.

Anyway, I have found:

"The genetics of alcoholism" Current Opinion in Genetics & Development, Volume
8, Issue 3, June 1998, Pages 282-286
Alison M Goate and Howard J Edenberg

Again, I can supply anyone who is interested with a pdf file of this
article if you will write to me direct at:

<dayatatime1950@yahoo.com> (dayatatime1950 at yahoo.com)

It is much more readable than the other article I cited
previously. In it the authors state "evidence from twin, adoption and family
stuides suggest alcoholism is a complex trait resulting from the action of
multiple interacting genes and the environment". They go on to describe efforts
to identify the specific genes that are associated with alcoholism in humans.
Some progress has been made
toward this goal.

Regards,

Russ Hillard

0 -1 0 0
3052 Mitchell K.
Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/14/2006 10:23:00 AM

Sorry it took so long to reply....
Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV -
TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page #
is the same): (DSM IV TR web link =
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm


Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for
at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no
CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met
(emphasis added)

Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if
none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been
met at any time during the period of 12 months or
longer (emphasis added)

The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not
drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria
for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA
is not about abstinence as a criteria.



Mitchell

> That's a pretty wild claim.
>
> Can you site the page and reference for this, please
> (using the DSM-IV-TR, which is the most current
> edition).
>
> I've always used the two books as mutually
> complementary. I have never found any incongruence
> between the two approaches with diagnostics or
> treatment approaches.
>
> But, I'm willing to learn something new . . . .
> <GRIN>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jon
>
>
> > From: "Mitchell K."
> <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:15:01 -0800 (PST)
> > To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] DSM-IV definitions:
> Abuse vs. Dependence
> > (Alcoholism)
> >
> > PLEASE NOTE. If using the DSM IV as any sort of
> > defining guideline for alcoholism one must
> remember
> > the following: The DSM does state that a person
> can
> > remain in total remission from alcohol dependence
> and
> > continue drinking as long as they do not exhibit
> the
> > criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence.
> > Abstinence from the use of beverage alcohol does
> not
> > define remission.... the lack of exhibiting the
> > criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous
> and
> > the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent.
> >
> > From: Mitchell K. <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
> > (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3053 mertonmm3
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/11/2006 12:33:00 PM

Hi Russ,

In some photos of the Green Pond residence I can tell you that it is a
one story cottage and that in the early 90's it was painted white with
dark green trim. I was told by the photographer that it is in a gated
community and difficult to access without knowing someone who lives
there. As a first avenue of approach attending a meeting in
Newfoundland or the closest town you can find and stating your
objective would be a good approach. Failing that you could approach
the homeowner's association but I imagine they've been approached before.

Another method would be to go to the County seat and look in the
records book under Chrystal. This would probably be the owner's
surname. It was Horace's uncle who I believe first name was Frank.

Please keep me informed of your progress as this is a matter of great
interest to me.

-merton

Another met



- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Rob <theyoukons@y...> wrote:
>
> 182 Clinton St
> Brooklyn heights, NY
>
> _______________________
>
> In response to Message 3032
>
> From: "Russ S" <bubba062701@e...>
> Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006
> Subject: Green Pond, NJ
>
> Dear History Lovers,
>
> I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.
>
> I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they
moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?
>
> Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ
>

0 -1 0 0
3054 ny-aa@att.net
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/11/2006 2:30:00 PM

The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W
and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street
without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their
period of "living around." Horace C loaned them his summer cottage
or bungalow. It got too cold that fall and they moved on.

"Pass it On" 215 ff
"Lois Remembers" 125

0 -1 0 0
3055 ny-aa@att.net
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/14/2006 12:21:00 AM

The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W
and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street
without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their
period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C
loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).
It got too cold that fall and they moved on.

"Pass it On" 215 ff
"Lois Remembers" 125

It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved
early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a
cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked
might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace
Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.

0 -1 0 0
3056 Robert Stonebraker
Where were the Wilsons'' living? Where were the Wilsons'' living? 1/12/2006 2:58:00 AM

Russ asked: “I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before
they moved to Stepping Stones”

Dear Russ,

Bill & Lois had to vacate there lovely home at 182 Clinton Street in
Brooklyn Hts. in April of 1939. Between then and moving into the Bedford
Hills residence they lived at nearly 50 places (P. 214 – Pass It On),
including the 24th Street Clubhouse. But at last,
in 1941, while living with friends in Chappaqua, NY, just north of the city,
they were offered, and accepted, the great deal on the Bedford Hills house
(Page 259 of “Pass It On” ).

When asked how they accomplished living so many different places, Bill
understated, “we were invited out to dinner a lot!”

The NJ Area Archives presented a great display at the Toronto International
Convention last year – this would be a great source of information for you.

Hope this helps,

Bob S. Indiana





Dear History Lovers,

I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.

I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to
Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?

Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3057 Cheryl F
alcohol content grapevine article alcohol content grapevine article 1/12/2006 5:49:00 PM

About Alcoholism - Alcoholism Information, Research, and Treatment
What's Not Cooking? Volume 47 Issue 3
August 1990


Many of these items are contrary to AA philosophy. Their publication here does
not mean that the Grapevine endorses or approves them; they are offered solely
for your information.

Don't blame Julia Child for leading you astray: We all were convinced that the
alcohol in the sherry she so liberally added to dishes would cook away, with
only the wine's flavor left behind. But now, it turns out, we can't have our
brandy and eat it too, because alcohol, as recent research reveals, has
tremendous staying power.

At the request of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, food scientist Evelyn A.
Augustin of Washington State University in Pullman, along with her husband, Jorg
A. Augustin of the Food Research Center at the University of Idaho in Moscow,
recently tested six recipes to determine the fate of the alcohol called for.
Their results, reported at the latest annual meeting of the American Dietetic
Association, were a big surprise to everyone. They found that the burgundy in
pot roast Milano, for example, doesn't completely disappear even after two and a
half hours of simmering on the stove; that a dish of scalloped oysters, baked at
375 degrees for 25 minutes, retains 45 percent of the alcohol in the dry sherry
used; that Grand Marnier sauce, which is removed from the heat when the
called-for liqueur is added, gets hot enough to lose only 15 percent of its
alcohol.

Especially surprising, though, was what happened--or didn't happen--to the
brandy in the cherries jubilee. The recipe calls for dark sweet cherries to be
mixed with corn-starch and heated in a chafing dish to thicken. One quarter of a
cup of brandy is then ignited in a separate pan and poured over the cherries.
But even this intense flaming process, the Augustins discovered, burned off no
more than 25 percent of the alcohol. They tested the recipe several times, and
on each try the flame died, while 75 percent of the alcohol survived.


Lears

Don't listen to the people in AA; Listen to the AA in people.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3058 whanny@aol.com
Henrietta Seiberling''s Children Henrietta Seiberling''s Children 1/11/2006 10:50:00 AM

Does anybody know if Henrietta Seiberling's children were present when Bill W &
Dr Bob met for the first time?

I've heard Bob Smith Jr say many times that he was the last person living who
was present on that day, but I thought that Henrietta had a couple of small
children.

Thanks,
Whanny

____________________________


From the moderator:

I heard Henrietta Seiberling's son speak at the National Archives Workshop at
Akron, Ohio, shortly before his death. Gail LaC., who started that series of
excellent annual workshops, could tell us the exact date.

Henrietta's son was a U.S. Representative, who went to Tip O'Neill and enlisted
his aid in getting approval from the Russians (via backdoor unofficial channels)
for AA people to come over and start the first AA groups in the Soviet Union.
That was an important part of the prehistory of the establishment of AA in
Russia, which is not usually known.

Dr. Bob's son Smitty, a really fine man, lived quite a few years longer than
Henrietta's son. I am sure that at the time you heard him say he was the last
survivor that this was in fact the case.

But I would be interested in anything the members of the group know about
Henrietta's children, because my only knowledge comes from hearing her son speak
that one time.

Glenn C.

0 -1 0 0
3059 Kimball
Re: Second Tradition (long and short) Second Tradition (long and short) 1/11/2006 6:57:00 PM

At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the same.
Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but trusted servants,
they do not govern" was redundant with the long form of tradition 9, that the
phrase be dropped from the long form of tradition 2.


----- Original Message -----
From: HJFree
Subject: Second Tradition (long and short)


Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long form?

0 -1 0 0
3060 Mel Barger
Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children Henrietta Seiberling''s Children 1/14/2006 5:25:00 PM

Hi All,
As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One
daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other
daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son, former
Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in AA.
I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob met.
I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy
attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would have
been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long
Island.
Mel Barger

0 -1 0 0
3061 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/14/2006 12:55:00 PM

The correct name is Horace Chrystal.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3062 Tom Hickcox
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/14/2006 7:13:00 PM

At 23:21 1/13/2006 , ny-aa@att.net wrote:


//The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and Lois
lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough money
to pay for a moving van .... Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned them
his summer cottage .... It is unlikely that such a cottage would have survived
this long.//

Not so quick, here. I would note that my family's camp on Lake
Memphremagog in Northern Vermont was bought by my grandfather when my
mother, born in 1913, was a pre-schooler, and I can tell you it is still in
excellent shape as are many of the neighboring cottages of similar vintage. One
has to take care of them, but they are still very livable.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3063 ricktompkins
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/14/2006 11:31:00 PM

My family vacationed at Green Pond for generations, usually for weeks in the
summer, and from what a pre-teenager can remember, I recall that our various
rented cottages (bungalows) were built in the earliest quarter of the twentieth
century. Old stoves, attic fans, all wooden bungalows, etc. Green Pond is about
a mile long, shaped like a rectangle, with a large Lodge+Hotel at one end (that
building should still be standing, too, unless it burnt down since 1960...).
Most all of the cottages had no garages, just a driveway between them for cars.
Its US Post Office looked like something out of the wild west (plenty of fodder
for kids games), a small, single-room building that still had a horse hitch in
front of it.
There were many single-lot homes at the water's edge around the lake's
perimeter, and most likely are now part of the 'gated' community, of course with
updated homes.
The Lodge was a set of beautiful white Adirondack-style of buildings (think of
green painted Adirondack chairs around a long, curved veranda) but I also
remember it as unoccupied during the summers my family rented cottages there.
Other relatives had stayed at the Lodge in earlier times. It was one site of
many adventures that a 4 to 7-year old and his brothers could create...and Green
Pond was where my swimming got better and I grew to love bodies of water.
Probably foreshadowed my later love of bodies of distilled spirits!
If a summer cottage that Horace provided Lois and Bill that 1939 summer was
around the same location on Green Pond, "bungalow" is a fitting description of
something that my parents rented 15 years later.
rick t.

--- Original Message -----
From: ny-aa@att.net
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Green Pond, NJ


The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W
and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street
without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their
period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C
loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).
It got too cold that fall and they moved on.

"Pass it On" 215 ff
"Lois Remembers" 125

It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved
early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a
cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked
might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace
Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3064 Jon Markle
Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism) 1/15/2006 12:02:00 AM

The entire diagnostic is about using the substance, alcohol.

The criteria you cite do not exclude the substance.

I venture to say this is one reason why untrained laypersons should not be using
clinical works to back up their arguments. Taking out of context, one can use
sentences from just about any form of literature to make it appear that the
entire volume says something quite the opposite of what is intended. Many
people do the same thing with the Big Book . . . <smile>.

Not only do I think your argument fails, in fact, I asked several
clinicians, some of which were responsible for writing the DSM-IV-TR, about this
question and they were incredulous that any accredited clinician would make such
a claim.

Jon Markle
Raleigh


> From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:23:20 -0800 (PST)
> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism)
>
> Sorry it took so long to reply....
> Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV -
> TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page #
> is the same): (DSM IV TR web link =
> http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm
>
>
> Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for
> at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no
> CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met
> (emphasis added)
>
> Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if
> none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been
> met at any time during the period of 12 months or
> longer (emphasis added)
>
> The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not
> drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria
> for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA
> is not about abstinence as a criteria.
>
>
>
> Mitchell

0 -1 0 0
3065 Bob McK.
RE: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children Henrietta Seiberling''s Children 1/15/2006 8:53:00 AM

John Seiberling's demise is news to me (the NE Ohio Area Archivist) and, I
think, to him. He spoke at the Sept. 25-27, 1998 Third Annual Nat'l AA Archives
Workshop and was very much alive in April 2002 when he received an award from
the Nat'l Park System. This copyright 2005 article speaks of him in the present
tense:

http://www.akronworldaffairs.org/newsletter/features/seiberling.html

Cursory Googleing shows nothing more recent and I am sure his demise would.

So rumors of his demise would seem to be greatly exaggerated <grin>.

___________________________

Bob,

Profuse apologies from the moderator for passing along some very inaccurate
information. I am glad, because I heard him speak in 1998, and he is a really
fine man, whom I greatly admire.

At least you and Mel B. caught my goof before John read it! As you said in your
Mark Twain quote in your last line, it would have been like the famous case
where Mark Twain (still very much alive) was amazed to read his own obituary in
a newspaper.

My wife Sue once said to me, "The problem with you, Glenn, is that you ARE right
93% of the time." I responded to her by saying, "No, the problem with me is the
other 7% of the time, where I end up being the last person to figure it out."

I always ask everyone in the fellowship (and also in the AAHistoryLovers) to
remember the 7% rule at all times when you're listening to me talk. Once more
it has been proved to be a valuable warning indeed (grin).

Glenn Chesnut

0 -1 0 0
3066 jlobdell54
Re: Long Form of Second Tradition Long Form of Second Tradition 1/15/2006 3:21:00 PM

I would be very interested to know where the recent contributor gained
the information that "Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do
not govern" is in the original (long) form of the Second Tradition, as
well as the original (long) form of the Ninth. On the Ninth there is
no doubt, but I really would like to see the evidence on the Second.
In the April 1946 Grapevine ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA
Tradition") the passage is not there. In "Traditions Stressed in
Memphis Talk" (October 1947 Grapevine) it is not there. In "Tradition
Two" (January 1948 Grapevine) it is not there. In the form in
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1958), which actually dates from
(roughly) 1950, it is not there. I have found no evidence for its
inclusion in Two until the so-called short form. In all these cases
mentioned (except of course for the write-up specifically on Tradition
Two), the phrase is in Tradition Nine, as we know. I am hoping this
contribution was not merely a guess. -- Jared Lobdell

0 -1 0 0
3067 ArtSheehan
RE: Second Tradition (long and short) - (and addenda) Second Tradition (long and short) - (and addenda) 1/15/2006 10:33:00 PM

The statement in message 3059 regarding Traditions 2 and 9 is
incorrect.

The long form of the second Tradition never contained any mention of
"Our leaders are but trusted servants - they do not govern." Also the
initial version of the long form of Tradition 9 did not contain the
term "they do not govern."

The April 1946 Grapevine contained an article by Bill W titled "Twelve
Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (re "Language of the Heart" pgs
20-24). The article provided AA with the initial version of the "long
form" of the Traditions. A December 1947 pamphlet titled "AA
Tradition" also contained the same wording.

Both the short and long form of the Traditions have undergone changes
from their original wording. Pinning down the dates when these changes
occurred is no trivial matter (and a bit exasperating to find source
reference details).

The original long form of Tradition 9 contained the ending statement
"All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service,
for true leaders in AA are but trusted and experienced servants of the
whole. They derive no real authority from their titles. Universal
respect is the key to their usefulness." This was later changed to add
"they do not govern" after " ... authority from their titles."

The November 1949 Grapevine contained the initial version of the
"short form" of the Traditions (re "Language of the Heart" article "A
Suggestion for Thanksgiving" pgs 95-96). The November 1949 Grapevine
issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the
forthcoming Cleveland Convention in 1950. The wording of the second
Tradition was expanded to include the sentence "Our leaders are but
trusted servants - they do not govern." (Note: "AA Comes of Age" pg
213, states that the short form was drafted in "1947 or thereabouts"-
it was more likely early 1949).

What caused this addition to the short form of Tradition 2 (and later
addition to the long form of Tradition 9)? I can only surmise. From
1946 on, after the first publication of the Traditions, there was
friction (it grew to be rather intense) between Bill W and the
Alcoholic Foundation Board Trustees regarding Bill's ideas for
establishment of the General Service Conference (re "AA Comes of Age"
pgs 208-214). Dr Bob was not very keen on the idea either. The
appearance of the "Our leaders are but trusted servants ..." sentence
in the short form may well have been a product of the friction but I
cannot confirm it with a direct source reference.

Two wording changes were subsequently made to the November 1949
version of the short form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual aim"
was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and "principles above
personalities" was changed to "principles before personalities" in
Tradition 12. However, the November 1949 wording of the short form of
the Traditions was adopted and adapted by Al-Anon Family Groups in
September 1952 (re "Lois Remembers" pgs .177-178).

The Traditions were approved at AA's 15th anniversary and 1st
International Convention which took place at Cleveland, OH from July
28-30, 1950. Bill W chronicled the proceedings in a September 1950
Grapevine article titled "We Came of Age" (re "The Language of the
Heart" pgs 117-124 also "AA Comes of Age" pg 213). The Traditions
meeting was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Bill W was asked to sum
up the Traditions for the attendees. He did not recite either the long
or short form. Instead, he paraphrased a variation of the long form.
Following Bill's summation, the attendees adopted the 12 Traditions
unanimously by standing vote.

I cannot as yet determine the specific points in time when the wording
changes to the short and long form of Traditions took place. I believe
it occurred with the publication of the 12&12 in 1953 but I need
access to a first printing 12&12 to confirm it.

If anyone can tell me the if the wording of Traditions 6 and 12 in a
first printing 12&12 is the same as they are today I'd be most
grateful. If that's the case, then today's wording (short and long
form) of the Traditions was Conference-approved in 1953 with the
publication of the 12&12.

The version of the long form of the Traditions as we know them today
appeared in an appendix to the second edition Big Book printed in
1955. One oddity, previously mentioned in the AAHL forum, was that the
2nd edition Big Book Traditions appendix initially contained the
wording of the short form as they were printed in the Grapevine in
November 1949. There has been no subsequent posting as yet to AAHL
saying in what printing the appendix was changed to reflect the short
form version as worded today.

One final bit of information - a number of members erroneously believe
that Tradition 3 once contained the word "honest" and that it was
removed from the Tradition by the Conference. It's not true. The word
"honest" never appeared in either the long or short form of Tradition
3. The term comes from the Foreword to the first edition Big Book and
was later included in the initial version of the AA Preamble in the
June 1947 Grapevine. It was the AA Preamble that was changed by the
Conference in 1958 to remove the word "honest." The way the Conference
Advisory Action was framed can give the erroneous impression that
Tradition 3 was changed.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimball
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:58 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Second Tradition (long and short)

At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the
same. Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but
trusted servants, they do not govern" was redundant with the long form
of tradition 9, that the phrase be dropped from the long form of
tradition 2.


----- Original Message -----
From: HJFree
Subject: Second Tradition (long and short)


Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long
form?






Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3068 Charlie Bishop Jr.
AA Corporations? AA Corporations? 1/17/2006 5:30:00 PM

Hi all: help needed on below:

//The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.;
the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.; and the Alcoholics
Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service organizations and corporations
whose purpose and existence is to serve the Fellowship. In effect, they are
temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and
Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or
body of AA members had the authority to form these three corporations? How
would they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on dismantling
or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for dismantling and
discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve Concepts, and who is given
the power to take this action in the Twelve Concepts?/

Thanks, servus, Charlie B.

"Charlie Bishop Jr." = <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3069 Charlie Bishop Jr.
The only AA censure motion? The only AA censure motion? 1/17/2006 5:33:00 PM

Hi all: more help needed:

//In the Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of A.A., 1951-2004
edition, p. 147, we read that in 1995 a recommendation that "the proposal to
censure the General Service Board" was "dismissed. (Trustees)." the censure
motion was signed by 10 GSC Delegates. What was the background for this censure
move? Was this censure motion a reaction to the change in the Charter on
Article 2?//

thanks all, servus, Charlie B.

"Charlie Bishop Jr." = <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3070 Charlie Bishop Jr.
AAWS legal attacks AAWS legal attacks 1/17/2006 5:41:00 PM

//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)

We went through a period a few years back when AAWS was going after anyone who
used the circle and triangle logo, and trying to sue them for trademark
infringement. This was defeated in the courts. One of the reasons was that
circle and triangle logos had been used for years by all sorts of organizations,
including some prohibitionist organizations in the period before AA came along.
This has all been discussed in detail in past messages in the AAHistoryLovers.

Recently I have had items (old books and pamphlets and memorabilia) which I had
put up for sale on eBay removed because of protests made to eBay by AAWS, simply
on the grounds that "AA" or "Alcoholics Anonymous" showed up somewhere on the
item, as part of a book title or somewhere on the item. Has anyone else had
items removed by eBay because of AAWS complaints? Please call or email me
directly if you have had this happen to you:

"Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net) phone
304.242.2937

I am trying to assemble enough material to work out a history of how this issue
has developed in AA.

Also, what information can the members of the group give me on cases where an
internet website or AA chat room has been threatened or removed by AAWS? What
is the history of this issue? Although the Big Book concordance issue seems to
be dead now, and is no longer being fought over, some of the earlier attacks by
AAWS were on concordances to the Big Book which were posted online, on the
grounds apparently of supposed copyright infringement.

Historically speaking, have there been issues other than claims of copyright
infringement involved in any of these attacks on websites and chat rooms?
Again, if you would call or email me directly, this would help me in writing the
historical article I am working on.

"Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net) phone
304.242.2937//

Thanks all, servus, Charlie B.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3071 Charlie Bishop Jr.
An AA apology? An AA apology? 1/17/2006 5:36:00 PM

Hi again...more help needed...

//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)
A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for
sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two
different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published
by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS
objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to
every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology
was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service
Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC
Final Report apologies or both? Thanks.

My email address is <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)

Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?//

Again thanks, servus, Charlie B.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3072 mertonmm3
Re: Green Pond, NJ Green Pond, NJ 1/18/2006 4:25:00 AM

Hi,

Yes, From my transcriptions of Lois diary the reference to Horace C.
was a reference to Horace Chystal or "Chrys" as Lois refered to him.
After living with the Parkhursts for a short time immediately after
leaving 182 Bill and Lois moved to the Greenpond bungalow. Although
Lois' diary made reference to "leaving Greenpond for good" keep in
mind that this was an unedited diary without the option of seeing into
future events. This bungalow was used many times over the next several
years by Bill and Lois, more than any other place. Lois did not know
she'd be returning when she wrote this first diary entry.

As of the early 1990's the bungalow was still there according to a
resident who spent considerable time tracking it down.

This is the most discussion I've seen to date regarding the Green Pond
bungalow. I have enough of a visual retention of the 20 or so photos I
once had to be able to identify it. Homes back then didn't all look
the same and the number of older homes in Greenpond was supposedly not
large.

Please advise,
-merton

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, ny-aa@a... wrote:
>
> The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W
> and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street
> without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their
> period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C
> loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).
> It got too cold that fall and they moved on.
>
> "Pass it On" 215 ff
> "Lois Remembers" 125
>
> It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved
> early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a
> cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked
> might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace
> Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.
>

0 -1 0 0
3073 James Flynn
100 Hundred Men & Women? 100 Hundred Men & Women? 1/17/2006 6:04:00 PM

I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a
statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories
in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at
the time the book was published.

Sincerely, Jim F.

0 -1 0 0
3074 greatcir@comcast.net>
Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children Henrietta Seiberling''s Children 1/17/2006 5:32:00 PM

On my visit to the Gate House in Akron last June I recall a framed printing in
the small library where Bill first met with Dr. Bob.

I think it says Henrietta's two daughters were home at the time and recalled a
tall thin man with big feet who reminded them of a movie star when Bill came to
meet and talk to Dr. Bob.

As I had heard Smitty (Dr. Bob's son) talk about being the last person alive who
was present when AA was formed, I asked the docent if the daughters were still
alive and she thought one was but she was not sure. The house is so small it's
had to imagine that Smitty and the girls did not play or talk with each other
while Bill & Bob had their infamous discussion thus it would seem Smitty knew
they were "present" too? Smitty and the two girls were probably close in age?

Pete Kopcsak

_______________________________

From the moderator:

Is it possible that this is partly a dispute over definitions? Are we talking
about the first time that Bill W. and Dr. Bob ever met, or are we talking about
the long period which followed that initial meeting, during which Bill stayed
with Dr. Bob and Anne, and they talked for hours every day about how to use this
new spiritual method for working with alcoholics?

The phrase "when AA was formed" could mean all sorts of things, depending on how
you defined it and what perspective you were looking from: (1) the first time
Bill W. and Dr. Bob met, (2) the period when Bill W. and Dr. Bob spent weeks at
Dr. Bob and Anne's house figuring out how they were going to put this program
together, (3) Dr. Bob's last drink after which he stayed sober to the end of his
life (celebrated at Founders Day), (4) the point when they brought Bill D. into
the program (which showed that they could teach it to other alcoholics),(5) the
time when AA split from the Oxford Group, (6) the date and place where the first
meeting was held which was called an "Alcoholics Anonymous meeting" (where
Clarence Snyder insisted that he was the one who did that in Cleveland), (7) the
point when "Alcoholics Anonymous" was chosen as the title of the book they were
writing, or (8) from an Akron perspective, the period when the early Akron AA
people were dropping by Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day and using that as
their center for regular fellowship (the period when a number of the famous
founders of AA in various places in the upper midwest were getting sober there).

All that to one side, if any of Henrietta's surviving children were actually
there at the time of Bill W. and Dr. Bob's first meeting, their memories of that
evening would be extremely valuable to record.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, USA)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mel Barger" <melb@accesstoledo.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:25 PM
Subject: Henrietta Seiberling's Children


Hi All,
As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One
daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other
daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son, former
Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in AA.
I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob met.
I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy
attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would have
been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long
Island.

Mel Barger

0 -1 0 0
3075 mertonmm3
Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" "Bill formally divorced AA in 1955" 1/18/2006 4:51:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <adirondackseamus@y...>
wrote:
>
It was a reference to the handing over of AA from the co-founders to
the fellowship and the backdrop for the Convention and the term, "AA
Comes of Age". I didn't mean to convey that he abandoned AA at any
time. Perhaps "divorced" was too strong a term and therefore I stand
corrected. Instead, "he gave himself the space to approach the disease
from angles which were precluded to AA by Tradition" would be a more
accurate statement. (Step 10).

Thank you for pointing this out.

-merton
------------------------------------------------------------

> "... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955."
>
> This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and
> various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine
> until 1970. He died in January 1971.
>
> The following articles were written in December 1955 and December
> 1970, respectively.
>
> _____________________________
>
> The Finest Gift of All
> Christmas, 1955
> Volume 12 Issue 7
> December 1955
>
> EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have
> found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This
> adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility.
>
> What then are we going to do with this great gift of life?
>
> Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know.
> We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so
> freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need
> and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily
> re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by
> self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one receives."
>
> For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift
> of all.
>
> Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be
> the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever
> known.
>
> Bill W.
>
> Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with
> permission.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Christmas Message
> Volume 27 Issue 7
> December 1970
>
> GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how
> deeply we of AA realize this at Christmastime. Together, we count and
> ponder our blessings of life, of service, of love.
>
> In these distraught times, we have been enabled to find an
> always-increasing measure of peace within ourselves. Together with all
> here at AA's General Service Offices, Lois joins me in warmest
> greetings to each and all of you, and me share our confident faith
> that the year to come will be counted among the best that our
> Fellowship has ever known.
>
> Bill W.
>
> Copyright © The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1970). Reprinted with
> permission.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> If you look closely at his life you'll see that Bill formally
divorced AA in 1955. HE SPENT THE REST OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO HELP THE
ALCOHOLIC FOR WHOM AA DID NOT WORK. Thats really what the sub-secret
LSD papers at Stepping Stones reveal. Its also what the enormous work
he did on nicotinic acid aka niacin aka vitamin B-3 and its effect on
Alcoholism.
>

0 -1 0 0
3076 Jim Blair
Re: An AA apology? An AA apology? 1/21/2006 3:43:00 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] An AA apology?
A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback
for sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere,

IWS can not sell in Canada as the BB has separate Canadian copyright and it
did not expire in Canada.
Jim

0 -1 0 0
3077 Robert Stonebraker
Pronounciation of "Shoemaker" Pronounciation of "Shoemaker" 1/18/2006 8:21:00 AM

I have always pronounced Reverend Sam Shoemakers name as “Shoe – maker” just
as it is spelled. However, Clarence Snyder pronounces it as “Shoe – mocker.”
I would like to know the correct articulation. Any help would be
appreciated.

Bob S., from Indiana



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3078 Karen
Inscription on Dr. Bob''s Desk? Inscription on Dr. Bob''s Desk? 1/17/2006 10:25:00 PM

Someone sent me an email saying that he heard in Missouri that there
was an inscription on a desk plaque of Dr. Bob that says:

"The task ahead of us is never greater than the POWER behind us."

I have been unable to find anything that confirms this. I did find
several websites that quote what is on the plaque and it does not
include the quote from above. I also found a website of quotations
(http://www.gratefulness.org/mb/quotes.cfm) that credits Alcoholics
Anonymous with the following:

"The power behind us is never estimated greater [than] the force of
the task that is ahead of us."

Does anyone have any information about the source of these quotations?

Thanks,
Karen

0 -1 0 0
3079 wilfried antheunis
Re: An AA apology? An AA apology? 1/21/2006 4:44:00 PM

From THE FORTY - FIFTH ANNUAL MEETING OF THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE OF
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

1995 FINAL REPORT



page (27) 28



A.A. WORLD SERVICES, INC.

"copyright were brought up under new business. It was felt the literature of
Alcoholics Anonymous belongs to A.A. as a whole and A.A.W.S. (US/Canada) holds
these copyrights in trust for all of us The committee recommended that A.A.W.S.
Inc should continue to grant exclusive licenses to one service structure per
country It was suggested that future W..M.s be kept aware of problems regarding
copyrights In A.A."

>>snip<<



Other Board Action

>>snip<<



Ann Warner, Gary Glynn and George Dorsey met with three representatives of
Intergroup World Services, Inc (IWS) in January 1995. It was a cordial meeting,
and although we did not always see eye to eye, there was an understanding on
some important issues After further communications following the meeting, an
understanding was reached and reported to delegates, alternate delegates.
intergrourp/central offices. overseas GSOs and World Service Meeting delegates



GSO/Staff Operations: The Financial Reports are >>snip<<



page 42

Reports from the A.A. Grapevine



Other Board Business:

. Technological Challenges- >>snip<<



. lWS-As a result of the meeting withIntergroup World Services (IWS) in January,
considerable progress has been made on an understanding and we are very
optimistic about the final outcome

>>snip<<



----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Bishop Jr.
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:36 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] An AA apology?


Hi again...more help needed...

//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)
A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for
sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two
different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published
by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS
objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to
every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology
was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service
Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC
Final Report apologies or both? Thanks.

My email address is <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)

Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in
A.A.?//

Again thanks, servus, Charlie B.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3080 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re:J.H.Fitzhugh Mayo and James McCaleb Burwell J.H.Fitzhugh Mayo and James McCaleb Burwell 1/18/2006 11:09:00 AM

A couple of years ago I sat on a panel which included AAHL's Nancy O.and the
topic was discovering more about Fitz Mayo.The following are some of the
things I discovered when researching this topic.
Jimmy Burwell's sister was Marjorie and her husband was Churchill M.(not
Mayo) Churchill did not drink. His best friend was Fitz Mayo.Fitz, Jimmy and
Churchill all went to an Episcopal high school in Virginia .Jimmy and
Churchill both served overseas in WWI.Fitz did not serve (see his story"Our
Southern friend") because the war was over when he enlisted and he was sent
home.When Fitz was down on his luck(drunk) Churchill gave him land in
Cumberland Md
where Fitz built a house.Fitz had two wives. The first was Elizabeth who
became ill and was attended to by Lois Wilson. After she died, he married
Arabella.Fitz and both of his wives were visited several times by Bill and Lois
Wilson. Fitz did get into the service in WWII, until he got ill. He was
operated
on by Dr. Bob. He had a cancer and died 10/4/1943.
While Fitz was sober in NY he obviously heard about Jimmy's "problem".
Jimmy was staying at his mothers house and she was hiding his clothes so he
couldn't go out and get drunk.He had another AA member Jackie carry the message
to Jimmy. Jackie never had permanent sobriety and died of alcoholism.
Fitz was AA number 3 in New York and Jimmy was AA number 5 in New York.
Both got sober with the help of Bill W. Fitz believed in God ( his father was
an Episcopal minister) and Jimmy did not. ( see his story "The Vicious
Cycle") Jimmy coined the expression "God As We Understand Him", and started
AA
in Philadelphia(Feb 28,1940), Wilmington,De, Harrisburg, Pa. and helped in
Baltimore, Md.
Jimmy insisted along with Hank P for "Higher Powered" and a "Power
greater than ourselves" to be used. He was the salesman" Ed" described in the
Third Tradition. It is thought that Bill took some liberties with his story to
make a point.
At the first open meeting of AA in Philadelphia, Fitz as well as several
other New York members(including Mr. and Mrs Bill Wilson) made the trip. The
date was March 6, 1940 .Jimmy returned the favor by going to Washington D.C.
and helping Fitz get AA started there. Jimmy died Sept 8, 1974 and both He
and Fitz are buried just feet apart in the Christ Episcopal Church in
Owensville, Md.It is the same church that Fitz's father was a minister.
As an observation; They were so opposite and so alike. Both had the
tremendous drive and energy that was so characteristic of early members to stay
sober and to "pass it on" to others. Some of what I discussed is common
knowledge to history buff's,but since AAHl has members new to AA history I have
included it. I apologize for the repetition.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike G.

p.s. Jimmy was known as "Jimmy of Philadelphia" and wrote a can opener
"Memoirs of Jimmy"



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3081 Bill Lash
RE: James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties James Houck and Bill at Maryland OG House Parties 1/22/2006 7:28:00 AM

I think it's interesting the way that the group is going about "speculating"
James Houck & the things he has said & been a part of. It's almost as if he
were one of the first one hundred in AA (who are no longer alive) so we are ONLY
left with being able to study what they wrote & what they said on recordings, or
perhaps even what they said to others. But since James is still alive, wouldn't
it be better to simply contact him & ask questions of whatever is needed to be
clarified instead of reading into what he has said & making judgments of
scattered & incomplete information? So much criticism & accusation when a mere
phone call with a few questions to a wonderful man might just set the record
straight.

Just Love,

Barefoot Bill

0 -1 0 0
3082 mertonmm3
The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 1/22/2006 1:26:00 AM

bout a month ago Chuck P. (no known relationship to Hank P. at this
time) made available to me the 4 pages from the Sotheby's catelog
where the heavily annotated manuscript that was sold for well over
$1Million appeared. Having personally owned numerous handwritten
documents that were given to me by Hank's living relatives and viewed
numerous other of Hank's original documents at GSO, Stepping Stones
and Clarence's letters from Hank now housed at Brown University, I've
concluded (to my own satisfaction anyway) that except for the much
later dated page signed by Bill the vast majority of the commentary
was pened by Hank P.

Hank had 3 different styles of handwriting, one being block letters
(which I call H1) the second being a very neatly written style (which
I call H2 and somewhat rare) and third a rapid scribble (which I call
H3 and the most typical. On the bottom of several of the pages the
initials HGP appears (Hank's initials the G. standing for Giffen).

Also note that the well known Dr. Howard (See PIO) appears several
times and it seems very likely that this is the manuscript lent to Dr.
Howard for review. Dr. Howard was the individual who told them that
the book was all wrong and they must remove the "You musts" from the
book and replace it with more suggestive language. Note that my review
of the Montclair City Directory from 1937-1940 revealed no Dr. Howard
and its quite likely that this was a pseudonym. (also his first name
is unknown and he seems to have vanished from all historical accounts
of the era after the review). Jim Burwell says in his history
something to the effect that he was the head psychiatrist of New
Jersey, though I could not find such a position to have existed then.
Any doctor at the time of the writing of the book (other than Dr.
Silkworth) would be reluctant to attaching his name to this idea or book.

There are references to some of the material being "too groupy" and to
the Oxford Group explicitly demonstrating that there was a perception
that the book should avoid such appearence.(at least by Hank).

I,m not a handwriting expert but absent a great forgery I'm quite sure
of my analysis of the majority of the handwriting being that of Hank.
I've also only seen evidence regarding these 4 pages so it goes
without saying that I have no knowlege of what appears on any of the
other pages.

As always anyone should feel free to challenge any of this (preferably
having viewed the document or fascimiles in the above-referenced
auction catelog).

That such an extraorinary document should surface at this late date
demonstrates that their is still original material out there that
hasn't been noted by anyone.

All the Best,
-merton

0 -1 0 0
3083 Glenn Chesnut
God-shaped hole God-shaped hole 1/22/2006 5:04:00 PM

Messages 952, 954, 956, and 962 asked about the origins of the idea of "the
God-shaped hole in the human soul." I have written a piece about this which is
too long to post in the AAHistoryLovers, so I have posted it online elsewhere,
and will simply give a link to it here for those who might be interested.

In the language of AA spirituality, the only thing that will fill this painful
void is developing God-consciousness, the sense of God's presence, which Bill W.
talked about in the opening pages of the Big Book (see pages 1, 10 and 12-13).
He had experienced it as a young military officer while visiting Winchester
Cathedral, but had failed to realize its importance, and had turned away from
it.

Learning to develop God-consciousness was the central motif in much of the
evangelical theology of the early twentieth century. The meditative practice of
the Oxford Group's morning Quiet Time was designed in part to help us develop
this awareness of the constant presence of God's power and grace and love.

This kind of meditation was further developed in Richmond Walker's Twenty Four
Hours a Day, where Rich (the second most published early AA author) spoke of
entering the Divine Silence and the Eternal Now, where we learned to simply be
still and delight in the awareness of God's peace, and let it flow in and fill
our souls.

Emmet Fox, whose book Sermon on the Mount was a standard piece of recommended
reading among early AA people, showed us how we could use our awareness of God's
presence and power as a way to heal our souls and our lives when we found
ourselves embroiled in troubles of any kind, either in our external lives or
within our souls.**

But in this piece I talk about the ancient roots of the spiritual wisdom
contained in idea that human beings are creatures who must have God in their
lives in order to realize their full human potential:
http://hindsfoot.org/godsha.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
______________________________

As we see for example in a famous passage from Emmet Fox which is quoted in some
versions (like the Detroit version) of the set of four early AA beginners
lessons called the Table Mate or Table Leaders Guide:

**Emmet Fox, Staying on the Beam

"Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is
produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this
beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get
his bearings in any other way.

As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he
immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more.

Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which to
navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some sense
of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if outer
things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off the
beam you are in danger.

You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or
frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately
get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His
Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the
promises in the Bible are true today.

If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your own
feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will reach
port in safety.

Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you."




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3084 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Update about Fitz M.wives Update about Fitz M.wives 1/21/2006 12:48:00 PM

I received the following from Jared L.

"Hi! Shakey -- Thank you. A possible correction. Fitz and Libby were divorced in
1936-37, according to their son. Libby died, I believe, in 1984. Fitz married
Arabella in 1943, when he already knew he was dying of cancer. She died in
Westchester County NY in early 1972 (I think) at the age of 93 -- she was twenty
years older than Fitz or Libby, and I believe she rented rooms in DC (to Fitz
among others) when her husband was trying to recover. I have seen her name as
Arabella or as Ruth J.

-- J"

Thanks, Jared for the update,Sorry for any misinformation. My information was a
copy of an interview with a relative of Jimmy B. What is known is that Fitz had
2 wives .Can anyone else add to what is known about Fitz M?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3085 jlobdell54
Sam Shoemaker Sam Shoemaker 1/21/2006 6:19:00 PM

When I met him, I was introduced to him as Sam Shoemaker (not Shoe-
macher). That was not long before he died. Moreover, in
conversations with Episcopal clergy I have always heard him referred
to as Sam Shoemaker (not -macher). -- Jared Lobdell

0 -1 0 0
3086 Arkie Koehl
Re: 100 Hundred Men & Women? 100 Hundred Men & Women? 1/21/2006 4:57:00 PM

Message 3073 from James Flynn <jdf10487@yahoo.com> (jdf10487 at yahoo.com) said:

"I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a
statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40 stories
in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in AA at
the time the book was published."
______________________________

From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com> (arkie at arkoehl.com)

In my business, advertising, this is known as "acceptable puffery" and is
allowed by the Federal Trade Commission :-)

Arkie Koehl
______________________________

From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com> (mitchell_k_archivist at
yahoo.com)

There have been several stories circulating about that. One is that because the
AA members and their spouses attended gatherings together there were at least
100 people involved. Another story I was told by Ruth Hock was that Bill always
liked to make the story sound better than it was. It sounded much better to
round it off from 40-70 members to 100 members. I would think that there might
be more stories which will surface.
______________________________

From: "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)

Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which functioned as
one during most of the time) they began with one woman (Florence R. of Westfield
N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book Marty M., then a patient
of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2.

The reason for the inflationary numbers is twofold. 1) they included the wives,
and 2) they were lying.

They were trying to sell the idea of 1) a book that hadn't been written, 2)
about a cure to a disease that no one thought
of as a disease, 3) for which there was no known solution since the dawn of time
(contra - Jerry McAuley's Water Street Mission) to an audience which included
the richest oil trust's philanthropic people in the world (the Rockefeller
Foundation) and even more difficult, the members themselves and, 4) to sell
stock subscriptions in a company that had not yet been formed, for the
incredibly high price of $25 a share (with inflation I'm guessing today's = $400
- $ 500/sh.)

This was called "puffing" or "salesmanship"!!!

All the best,

-merton
______________________________

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

I believe it is pretty generally accepted that he was exaggerating on purpose.

Either Nell Wing or Ruth Hock said that Bill never let the facts stand between
him and a good story.

He was promoting A.A. and the Big Book.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge
______________________________

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> (jblair at videotron.ca)

It is a nice round number.

Jim
______________________________

From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com)

Hi all

Were they not referring to the first 100 drunks from the Oxford Group era?
Those drunks roaming around aimlessly until the title of the BB came to life?

0 -1 0 0
3087 robin_foote
AA & Cuba AA & Cuba 1/21/2006 9:40:00 PM

Cuba and AA Take First Step

By Mike Fuller

Havana, Jan 21 (Prensa Latina) After 13 years of spreading sobriety in Cuba,
Alcoholics Anonymous can now count on more support from State sectors to
save lives of people suffering from this incurable, progressive and lethal
disease.

Amid thundering applause at the opening of Alcoholics Anonymous first
National Convention in Cuba, Guillermo Barrientos of the Cuban Ministry of
Public Health said the door is open for cooperation between the State and
AA.

More than a decade in Cuba, the international self-help group has
experienced prodigious growth on this island, and health authorities here
are ready to extend a hand in the fight against alcoholism.

Barrientos, chief of the Operative Group for Mental Health and Addictions,
said to Prensa Latina "Alcoholism transcends the level of health, and must
enter other sectors like the Federation of Cuban Women, Committees for
Defense of the Revolution, Federation of Universities and NGO´s like
Alcoholics Anonymous."

"We started backwards," he explains, "with a public declaration, but now we
must define our relationship," and cited a pending meeting with the Ministry
of Justice to elaborate legal aspects. "We have to work on issues like
technology, training and community integration," he said.

The hundreds of alcoholics here in recovery with AA´s 12 Step program are
grateful their experience, hope and strength is being recognized.

Andy X, manager of the AA General Services Office said "It´s like a dream
come true."

But as the banner said at the event, the fight against alcoholism is most
important for those to come.

0 -1 0 0
3088 Gotogo2002L@aol.com
Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/21/2006 5:54:00 PM

Hi All

Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA
meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3089 Jim Blair
Re: An AA apology? An AA apology? 1/21/2006 9:51:00 PM

From: Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca> (jblair at videotron.ca)

Charlie Bishop wrote:

"Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?"

I was at the Regional Forum in Burlington, VT. in '95 and "lawsuits" were
discussed at length.

Jim
______________________________

From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com (Gotogo2002L at aol.com)

Hi There.

Please let me know if you get the info...........what was the final result of
the paper back edition? Can we in the US have it also?
______________________________

Message 3071 from "Charlie Bishop Jr." <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at
comcast.net)

//A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for
sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were two
different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one published
by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS
objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize to
every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology
was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service
Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995 GSC
Final Report apologies or both? Thanks. My email address is
<bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at comcast.net)//
...
//Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed "lawsuits" in A.A.?//

0 -1 0 0
3090 Tom Hickcox
Smitty and Smithy Smitty and Smithy 1/21/2006 9:25:00 PM

Didn't Bill call Dr. Bob "Smithy" and the son's nickname was "Smitty"?

Smitty/Smithy/Tommy in Baton Rouge <vbg>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3091 J. Carey Thomas
Circle and Triangle Circle and Triangle 1/22/2006 6:55:00 PM

Folks,
At an Aero show in Lantana, Florida, I observed a reconstruction
of a Civil Air Patrol (CAP on the fuselage) airplane used to spot
submarines off the Florida coast in the early 1940's. This plane had a
circle surrounding a (solid) triangle as the logo for this operation.
My informant wasn't sure of the exact dates these planes were
used, but agreed that it was early in the second world war.
In love of service,
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3092 Robert Stonebraker
4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? 1/22/2006 12:13:00 PM

Question on quote from Dr. Bob’s Nightmare

My first edition, 16th printing, Big Book states on page on page 192: "That
was June 10, 1935, and that was my last drink. As I write nearly six years
have passed."

Of course, the Big Book was written in 1938 & 39, so only “nearly four
years” would have passed when Dr. Bob wrote this article.

My second edition also states six years (p. 180), but my third and fourth
editions state four years (p. 180).

I thought that probably this mistake had been corrected when the third
edition was published in 1976, but my first edition, first printing, replica
from Anonymous Press states four years! So my question is this: Did the
original first printing of the first edition use the number four or six on
page 192?

Thank you for your research and answer.

Bob S., Richmond, IN





The "Anonymous press" first printing says 4 years
The first edition says 6 years
The second edition says 6 years!
The third edition says 4 years
The fourth edition says 4 years



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3093 Mel Barger
Re:Quote from Dr. Bob''s Nightmare Quote from Dr. Bob''s Nightmare 1/23/2006 2:20:00 PM

Hi Bob,

I have an original copy of the First Edition. It says, "As I write, nearly
four years have passed." It's obvious that somewhere along the line, when six
years had passed, somebody took the liberty of changing it. However, they went
back to four years in the 3rd and 4th editions.

Mel Barger

0 -1 0 0
3094 Mike Breedlove
Steering Committees at the Group level Steering Committees at the Group level 1/23/2006 7:09:00 PM

Greetings fellow AA History Lovers:

Could you please help me understand the origins of steering committees at
the group level? I checked the AAHistoryLovers archive of messages and got
several "hits" for steering committee, but the references are actually to
Intergroup or District Level Steering Committees, not to group steering
committees. Of course I could easily have missed something.

Does anyone have an idea of when the first group level steering committee
might have started, in which section of the country, and why? If anyone
knows anything about the history of how a steering committee started in
their town or city I would be interested in hearing about it, and would be
willing to compile that information for the list.

Please reply to me with any information you might have, and with any
documentation you might possess, to my email address, mikeb415@knology.net
(mikeb415 at knology.net),
not to the list as a whole.

This next question is a very broad one, and perhaps to some extent
unanswerable. Does anyone know if there is a steering committee being formed
very early and then changing its modus operandi when the traditons appeared.
Again, reply to me at my email address, mikeb415@knology.net (mikeb415 at
knology.net), not to the list.

Thanks very much for any assistance you might give.

Peace, Mike B., Prattville, Alabama

0 -1 0 0
3095 ricktompkins
Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 1/24/2006 9:30:00 PM

The "Printer's draft" manuscript of the Big Book was sold in June 2004 for 1.56
million dollars, through a telephone bid from California to the auction site in
NYC. Bill P. of Hazelden Press verified its authenticity at the time, after his
report of viewing the entire manuscript on what we know as our 'first 164
pages.' From what I have learned, this one manuscript was brought to Cornwall
Press in the Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in February
1939---the linotype operators made the galleys of Alcoholics Anonymous from this
draft.
$1.56 million is a great deal of private money, but I wonder if the artifact
will ever be shown to the general AA public. Such a shame! even the AA Archives
at GSO stayed away from the auction fracas, with AAWS having no opinion on this
outside issue: the fiscal speculation of AA archival items.
The manuscript was the property of Barry L., confidant of Lois and the writer of
AAWS' Living Sober in 1973. Lois gave it to him the mid-1970s and Barry's
grand-nephew put it up on the auction block last year
Honestly, I was saddened that the nephew never considered contributing it to the
AA Archives at GSO, even with its potential tax write-off.
In serenity,
Rick, Illinois

0 -1 0 0
3096 ArtSheehan
RE: AA Corporations? AA Corporations? 1/25/2006 1:46:00 PM

Hi Charlie

Your assertion about AA's corporate entities that "In effect, they are
temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown
away and Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist" seems a bit cavalier.
What I read in AA history and literature indicates very much the
contrary.

Given the Fellowship-wide "essential" service duties defined for these
corporations (GSB, AAWS, GV) in AA's Traditions and Concepts, it would
require approval of 75% of all known AA groups worldwide (in writing)
to alter the Traditions and Concepts to allow them to be "thrown away"
(see the last item in this posting).

The practice of forming an incorporated (or equivalent) General
Service Board, General Service Office, and corporate publishing
entities with a corresponding General Service Conference oversight,
has extended well beyond that of the US/Canada to numerous countries
overseas (I believe there are more than 50). If these were all "thrown
away" I doubt AA, as we know it, would long survive and would likely
dissolve into a number of factions. There are so many members with
intense, and intransigent, convictions on what AA "ought to be." Plus
the general nature of the prevailing public rhetoric these days is so
critically harsh and vitriolic toward opposing viewpoints, I really
couldn't imagine what "would still exist" that would be labeled
"Alcoholics Anonymous."

The AA Service Manual (which can be downloaded from the aa.org web
site) contains history and explanations of how the various AA
corporations came to be and how they function. There is also a concise
explanation in the pamphlet "The AA Group"(which can be downloaded
from aa.org web site as well).

First off, it would be useful to begin with the premise that the word
"corporation" is neither a bad word or a pejorative. Corporations are
the primary means for "separating the material from the spiritual."

Incorporation has been an integral part of AA since 1938 to establish
legal (i.e. lawful or official) entities that hold in trust all of
AA's assets in behalf of the entire Fellowship. Those assets include
literature inventories and copyrights, trademarks and logos and funds
from donations and literature sales.

Among the trademarks and logos held in trust are "AA" "Alcoholics
Anonymous" "The Big Book" "Box 4-5-9" "The Grapevine" "GV" "Box 1980"
and "La Vina" (you were seeking info on this in a different posting -
re the Service Manual, Chapter 10).

In Apr 1947, Bill W sent a paper to the Alcoholic Foundation titled
"Our AA General Service Center - The Alcoholic Foundation of
Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow." It outlined a history of the
Foundation and recommended implementation of a General Service
Conference. Bill W wrote

"In Part One of this Foundation story we saw how an informal group of
early AA's and their non-alcoholic friends banded together in 1938 to
spread the AA message as best they could; how this group formed The
Alcoholic Foundation, and how some of them became its first Trustees.
We saw how the Foundation helped Dr Bob and me through difficult
years; how the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and the AA Office came into
being and how, later, the Foundation acquired ownership of the AA
book. We observed that the Foundation was chosen by the Groups in
1941, as custodian of their voluntary contributions for the support of
the AA General Service Office at New York. We also have learned that,
more recently, the Foundation assumed a responsibility for
effectiveness and integrity of THE AA GRAPEVINE and that some time ago
the AA Groups designated the Foundation Trustees as the overseers of
our general public relations. Then early last year, on publication of
"The Alcoholics Anonymous Tradition - Twelve Points to Assure Our
Future," the Trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation were named the
Custodians of these traditions as well.

Such has been the gradual process of evolution and common consent by
which the Foundation Trustees have come to be regarded, first
nationally, and now internationally, as THE GENERAL SERVICE BOARD OF
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS - Custodians of AA Tradition, General Policy and
Headquarters Funds."

In the April 1946 Grapevine article, mentioned by Bill W, titled
"Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (which later became the
long form of the Traditions) Bill acknowledged the importance of the
corporate entities of the Alcoholic Foundation and Grapevine and what
was then called "AA General Headquarters and today called "GSO" [I've
truncated the wording for emphasis]:

4 ... no group, regional committee or individual should ever take any
action that might greatly affect AA as a whole without conferring with
the Trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation. On such issues our common
welfare is paramount.

6 Problems of money, property and authority may easily divert us from
our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any considerable
property of genuine use to AA should be separately incorporated and
managed, thus dividing the material from the spiritual ...

9 ... The trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation are, in effect, our
General Service Committee. They are the custodians of our AA tradition
and the receivers of voluntary AA contributions by which they maintain
AA General Headquarters and our General Secretary at New York. They
are authorized by the groups to handle our overall public relations
and they guarantee the integrity of our principal publication, The AA
Grapevine ...

In April 1962 the Conference approved the "Twelve Concepts for World
Service." Bill further acknowledges the importance of the corporate
entities in several of the long form Concepts:

III. As a traditional means of creating and maintaining a clearly
defined working relation between the groups, the Conference, the AA
General Service Board and its several service corporations, staffs,
committees and executives, and of thus insuring their effective
leadership, it is here suggested that we endow each of these elements
of world service with a traditional “Right of Decision.”

VI. On behalf of AA as a whole, our General Service Conference has the
principal responsibility for the maintenance of our world services,
and it traditionally has the final decision respecting large matters
of general policy and finance. But the Conference also recognizes that
the chief initiative and the active responsibility in most of these
matters should be exercised primarily by the Trustee members of the
Conference when they act among themselves as the General Service Board
of Alcoholics Anonymous.

VII. The Conference recognizes that the Charter and the Bylaws of the
General Service Board are legal instruments: that the Trustees are
thereby fully empowered to manage and conduct all of the world service
affairs of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is further understood that the
Conference Charter itself is not a legal document: that it relies
instead upon the force of tradition and the power of the AA purse for
its final effectiveness.

VIII. The Trustees of the General Service Board act in two primary
capacities: (a) With respect to the larger matters of over-all policy
and finance, they are the principal planners and administrators. They
and their primary committees directly manage these affairs. (b) But
with respect to our separately incorporated and constantly active
services, the relation of the Trustees is mainly that of full stock
ownership and of custodial oversight which they exercise through their
ability to elect all directors of these entities.

IX. Good service leaders, together with sound and appropriate methods
of choosing them, are at all levels indispensable for our future
functioning and safety. The primary world service leadership once
exercised by the founders of AA must necessarily be assumed by the
Trustees of the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous.

X. Every service responsibility should be matched by an equal service
authority—the scope of such authority to be always well defined
whether by tradition, by resolution, by specific job description or by
appropriate charters and bylaws.

XI. While the Trustees hold final responsibility for AA's world
service administration, they should always have the assistance of the
best possible standing committees, corporate service directors,
executives, staffs, and consultants. Therefore the composition of
these underlying committees and service boards, the personal
qualifications of their members, the manner of their induction into
service, the systems of their rotation, the way in which they are
related to each other, the special rights and duties of our
executives, staffs, and consultants, together with a proper basis for
the financial compensation of these special workers, will always be
matters for serious care and concern.

In Apr 1969 at the 19th General service Conference, Bob H, the newly
chosen general manager of GSO summarized AA's service structure and
the relationship of its parts “To sum up: the Board formulates policy;
the Conference approves policy; and GSO implements policy.”

The 1976 Conference (and prior Conferences) expanded a 1955 provision
of the Conference Charter to specify that any change to the Steps,
Traditions or Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of the General
Service Conference Charter, would require written approval of 75% of
the AA Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes any
change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a
virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma).

They are our "Three Legacies" of Recovery, Unity and Service, which
we are supposed to pass on - not "throw away."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Bishop
Jr.
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:30 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Corporations?

Hi all: help needed on below:

//The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World
Services, Inc.; the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous,
Inc.; and the Alcoholics Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service
organizations and corporations whose purpose and existence is to serve
the Fellowship. In effect, they are temporary, albeit long-lived,
committees which could all be thrown away and Alcoholics Anonymous
would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or body of AA
members had the authority to form these three corporations? How would
they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on
dismantling or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for
dismantling and discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve
Concepts, and who is given the power to take this action in the Twelve
Concepts?/

Thanks, servus, Charlie B.

"Charlie Bishop Jr." = <bishopbk@comcast.net> (bishopbk at
comcast.net)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3097 Joe Nugent
RE: Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/26/2006 8:38:00 AM

Hi,
If the dance is being put on by AA not a problem.
Joe

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gotogo2002L@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:54 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Announcing outside events during AA meetings


Hi All

Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA
meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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0 -1 0 0
3098 Corey Franks
Re: Smitty and Smithy Smitty and Smithy 1/26/2006 9:53:00 AM

HI.. Both Sue and Smitty Docs children told me many times that that was how they
were both addressed. Thats my additon here, THX. Corey F.

Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> wrote: Didn't Bill call Dr. Bob "Smithy" and
the son's nickname was "Smitty"?

Smitty/Smithy/Tommy in Baton Rouge <vbg>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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0 -1 0 0
3099 Mitchell K.
Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 1/26/2006 7:38:00 AM

From what I have learned, this
> one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the
> Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in
> February 1939---

Just a quick geographical correction. The Cornwall
Press was located in Cornwall, NY located in Orange
County, NY. The first edition printings were done
there as were several of the 2nd edition printings.
The company merged with another and from what I
understand, further printings were done in New Jersey.

When the galleys were gone over, it was done by Bill
W., Hank P., Ruth Hock and Dorothy Snyder who came up
to Cornwall to go over them.

As far as Barry's family giving anything to AAWS, due
to a history of problems, litigation and pending
litigation over royalties for Living Sober They had no
desire to give AAWS anything. There was a great deal
of animosity generated. I remember going over all the
drafts for Living Sober which were housed in a
friend's apartment in Connecticut. This friend had
many of Barry's materials as well as another friend's
materials which were left to him (Ron was involved
with many of the private recordings of Bill W. and
Bill speaking at his anniversaries in NYC - I think
close to 200 of them and left them to Dennis when he
passed on). I have no idea where these materials might
be today (I do have some guesses). Dennis was a
collector of AA memorabilia and had a small but
amazing collection. There were some great "spook", LSD
and vitamin B tapes but as I was only allowed to
listen to portions of them, not make copies or take
notes, unless they surface again, the material
contained in them might be lost.

0 -1 0 0
3100 jlobdell54
Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard 1/26/2006 8:19:00 AM

Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of
either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given
year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been
given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives
are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS
restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ"
I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane
at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park
Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell

0 -1 0 0
3101 Jim Blair
Re: Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/26/2006 11:38:00 AM

Gotogo asked

Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA
meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?

You can do or say whatever you want but just be prepared to deal with the
consequences.

AA Police #242

0 -1 0 0
3102 ArtSheehan
RE: Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/26/2006 1:17:00 PM

I'm not sure what your question has to do with AA history, but if you
are trying to find out if AA members can have diametrically opposed
viewpoints and all think they are right, it's a guaranteed certainty.

Alcoholics can announce whatever they want according to their group
conscience. Groups are autonomous - but autonomy should not be used as
a loophole to get around what the group members consider appropriate
in their understanding and practice of the Traditions.

Similarly, Alcoholics can decline to announce whatever they want
according to their group conscience. Minorities demonstrate unity when
they cooperate with the group conscience decisions of the majority.

Things can get a bit dicey, and divisive, when the Traditions are
viewed legalistically as opposed to being looked at as spiritual
principles oriented to maintaining group unity.

Many AA members like to keep announcements limited to activities
directly related to AA (e.g. a meetings, service committees,
conferences and conventions, etc.).

Just because something is attended by AA members it does not means
that it is an AA event. There is no such thing as an AA retreat, an AA
golf tournament, or an AA dance although AA members as certainly free
to join in such activities.

Of course, all the above is only one member's viewpoint.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Gotogo2002L@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 9:54 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Announcing outside events during AA
meetings

Hi All

Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA
meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3103 ArtSheehan
RE: Smitty and Smithy Smitty and Smithy 1/26/2006 12:55:00 PM

Yes Bill W did use the nicknames "Smithy" and "Smitty" to distinguish
between father and son. Young Bob was still called "Smitty" up to the
time he passed away.

Incidentally, Dr Bob was supposed to have quite a sense of humor for
nicknames that he would come up with for others. Among the nicknames
he had for Sister Ignatia were "Little Angel AA" and "Ig." He also
liked to use jargon which would likely get him in politically
incorrect hot water today (i.e. he would refer to women as a "frail").

Cheers
Arthur

______________________________

To add to Arthur's list, J. D. H., the founder of the first AA group in Indiana,
says (in his memoirs which he wrote many years later) that when he got sober in
Akron and was over at Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day, Dr. Bob always called
him "Abercrombie."

Glenn C.

0 -1 0 0
3104 Mark Everett
RE:Announcing outside events during AA meetings Announcing outside events during AA meetings 1/26/2006 3:44:00 PM

Hi Friends,
While I think this issue has a questionable place on a forum on AA
History, it has everything to do with our traditions. Tradition 6, short
form states, "An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A.
name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money,
property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose."
Now, if there is a charge for admission, an AA Dance or anything
else becomes an Outside Enterprise. If it is offered as free, then it could
be argued that it is not much more than an extension of the meeting, though
some may hold that it is still a violation of some other traditions. I have
also seen occasions where certain outside enterprises have offered "free" AA
activities with an underlying purpose of promoting their recovery store,
club, hospital or other services. That's called advertising, and we avoid
any appearance of promoting that, too.
I was taught to make any Related but still Non AA Announcements just
prior to the opening of a meeting, therefore these types of announcements
are not made at an AA meeting, and not appearing to be endorsed by AA

**************************************************
Mark Everett
517 Cherry Hill Lane
Lebanon, Ohio 45036-7608
Phone: (513) 228-0078
Cell: (513) 850-4911
eFax: (267) 851-2083
e-mail: mark@go-concepts.com
**************************************************

0 -1 0 0
3105 Mark Everett
RE: 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? 4 or 6 years sober on page 192 in 1st printing? 1/26/2006 4:04:00 PM

Hi all,
Boy, I love these types of things. I went looking through my
assorted collection of Big Books and found the following from Dr. Bob's
Nightmare.

First Edition, 9th and 12th printings - 6 years
Second Edition, 1st printing - 6 years
Third Edition, 1st, 5th and 7th printing - 6 years

and

Third Edition, 51st printing - 4 years
Third Edition (soft cover 8th printing - Sept 1988) referencing the 32nd
printing (also 1988) - 4 years
Fourth Edition, 1st and 8th printing - 4 years
Knockoff copy of "Original Manuscript" with notes from Clarence Snyder - 4
years


So, it appears to me that some editor, after the 7th printing of the 3rd
edition in 1980 and prior to September 1988, decided to do the math, and
returned Dr. Bob's story to a logical number of years. This is sort of like
the same mystery with "these" and "those" in the 12th step.

Enjoy
Mark

**************************************************
Mark Everett
517 Cherry Hill Lane
Lebanon, Ohio 45036-7608
Phone: (513) 228-0078
Cell: (513) 850-4911
eFax: (267) 851-2083
e-mail: mark@go-concepts.com
**************************************************

0 -1 0 0
3106 Emmanuel John
AAhistory AAhistory 1/26/2006 5:11:00 PM

Your question is one that I have dealt with a lot in my 21 years.

First of all we have our 1st tradition which states that our common welfare
should come before all else. Is this good for AA? It goes on to say that the
Unity of our members is the primary goal as disunity would tear us apart. The
nay-sayers are probably more of a force for disunity then the event could ever
be.

So does the event aid in unity? I personally believe that the founders would
have been very supportive of these types of events and announcements. In law
there is often the phrase, "the spirit of the law," why it was written. I don't
think that the tradition aims at limiting these types of activities

If our ultimate authority is a "loving God and how he will express himself" then
we could ask what He might consider on this issue, the dance is a good thing
despite people who are just down right negative. We're not supposed to have an
opinion on outside issues so what one group does is not the other groups
business unless if effects AA as a whole. This should then be discussed with
their local Intergroup office. Your dance could be considered by some as the
way "A loving God" is expressing Itself in your group.

Does it effect AA as a whole? Only for the better but we must be careful where
proceeds if any end up. AA bull roasts/dances are common fundraisers Just
like our conventions, gratitude breakfasts' which are also announced in
meetings. A group does however have the right to choose to not announce these
types of events by way of a vote.

Is it carrying the AA message? Most important of all, can people without money
attend without feeling singled out, or made to feel ashamed because they don't
have money (not so with many of our fundraisers). Admission should be set up in
such a way that it is seen as a donation and not an admission/ticket charge.
The have nots should be encouraged to attend.

Is it an outside enterprise? Well if it's in the same building and using the
group name then its not an outside event, if an autonomous group decided to put
the dance on then it is an extending activity of the group or a special
"lengthened" meeting

A major issue is that the monies collected in the basket during the meeting
should only go to purposes for which the money was given. A dance is probably
not an understood allocation for those having contributed. Now if your meeting
has the dance every month and everyone knows that this will be a use for the
money then that might be acceptable. I personally belong to a group that puts
on more events then most groups in the area and somehow we give more money to
Intergroup, with many other contributor meeting, meeting several times a week,
giving less.

Finally. I think that we have to consider if this makes the AA way of life more
attractive to the new comer who might think that we are a glum lot. People who
don't like these announcements are usually just not very fun to begin with.

Enjoy the dance!

Emmanuel
Baltimore


Message: 4
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:54:03 EST
From: Gotogo2002L@aol.com
Subject: Announcing outside events during AA meetings

Hi All
Can alcoholics announce there will be a sober dance following the AA
meeting, when we want to have a dance in the same hall?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Peace & Happy Days
Emmanuel S. John, LCSW-C

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0 -1 0 0
3107 Glenn Chesnut
Moderator out of town Fri-Mon Jan 27-30 Moderator out of town Fri-Mon Jan 27-30 1/26/2006 8:55:00 PM

I will be out of town from Friday January 27 to Monday January 30, 2006.

Please hold your messages until then.

Thanks much!

Glenn Chesnut
South Bend, Indiana



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3108 ArtSheehan
RE: 100 Hundred Men & Women? 100 Hundred Men & Women? 1/26/2006 2:55:00 PM

Bill W did like to be "generous" in his numerical estimates.

However, the "100 men" part likely derived from a prospectus Hank P
put together to offer shares of stock to underwrite the production of
the book. The shares were offered at $25 which would be around $325
using the 2003 Consumer Price Index (CPI).

The graphic image file I have of the prospectus shows a date of June
1939 on its cover which has the title "Alcoholics Anonymous." The date
is likely in error since the prospectus contents announce that the
Alcoholic Foundation had recently been formed and that ten chapters of
the book had been completed. Hank's story is "The Unbeliever."

What eventually came to be called "Works Publishing Co" was originally
proposed to be named "The One Hundred Men Corporation" in the
prospectus. The proposed title for what became "Alcoholics Anonymous"
(the Big Book) was "One Hundred Men."

The "and women" part turned out to be Florence R of NY (as Merton
noted) whose story is "A Feminine Victory" (Marty M didn't arrive
until after the manuscript had been distributed). Florence R, was the
first woman in AA and was sober around a year when she wrote her
story. She later moved to Washington DC to join up with Fitz M (whose
story is "Our Southern Friend") to help start AA there. Sadly,
Florence returned to drinking (Fitz M was called to the morgue to
identify her).

A non-alcoholic wife of an AA member also had her personal story
printed in the first edition. She was Marie B whose story is "An
Alcoholic's Wife." Her husband was Walter B whose story was "The
Backslider." Walter was also the first patient admitted to St Thomas
Hospital in Akron when Dr Bob and Sister Ignatia began their
collaboration.

When Bill W visited Dr Bob in November 1937, they "compared notes." 40
cases were sober (more than 20 for over a year). All were once
diagnosed as hopeless. In a meeting at T Henry Williams’ home, Bill's
ideas, for a book, hospitals and how to expand the movement with paid
missionaries, narrowly passed by 2 votes among 18 members. The NY
group was more enthusiastic. This is what led to the start of the
writing of the Big Book.

Between November 1937, when there were "40 cases sober" up to the
early months of 1939 (the Big Book was printed in April 1939) it is
not inconceivable that membership jumped to 100 or thereabouts. Plus,
like Jim B noted "it's a nice round number." And would at most
constitute a "fib" as opposed to a "lie."

I don't believe it was ever intended for every member in 1938/1939 to
have their personal stories printed in the first edition. Stories from
Akron and vicinity dominated since they were the first group and
largest in membership. The manuscript story of an Akron member, "Ace
Full - Seven - Eleven," was dropped (reputedly, because he was not too
pleased with changes made to the first drafts of the Steps and basic
text).

Only 29 (not 40) personal stories were included in the first printing
of the first edition Big Book (10 from the east coast, 18 from the
mid-west and 1 from the west coast - which was ghost written by Ruth
Hock and later removed from the book in its second printing).

Cheers
Arthur

______________________________

Message 3073 from James Flynn <jdf10487@yahoo.com> (jdf10487 at
yahoo.com) said:

"I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB
makes a statement about 100 men and women, when there are only
approximately 40 stories in the BB and by some accounts that I have
read a maximum of 70 members in AA at the time the book was
published."
______________________________

0 -1 0 0
3109 Cloydg
Trust God, Clean House, Help Others Trust God, Clean House, Help Others 1/26/2006 11:49:00 PM

Group,
One of my sponsee's asked me a question. I tried to find the answer as I
had thought it came from steps 6 and 7. Unfortunately, when I looked it up on
our reference pages. I still could not find the answer to this nagging
question. Maybe you can answer it for me?

Where did, "Trust God, Clean House, Help Others", come from? Is it in any
AA literature

In love and service, Clyde G.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3110 Diz Titcher
First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 1/26/2006 3:57:00 AM

The first woman was Jane S. in Akron and she beat Florence by one month.

Diz T.

______________________________

From: "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)

Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which
functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman
(Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of the book
Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became number 2.
______________________________

0 -1 0 0
3111 ArtSheehan
RE: Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard 1/27/2006 1:01:00 AM

The 1999 General Service Conference passed the following Advisory
Action:

The annual limit contributed to the General Service Office from
individual A.A. members be increased from $1,000 to $2,000 and that
bequests from A.A. members should be subject to the same limit and be
on a one-time-only basis and not in perpetuity.

This seems to be focused on money donations.

The AA Archives are called the "General Service Office Archives" and
are one of the departments of the GSO (re the Service Manual pgs
S72-S73).

AA paid a hefty sum to purchase Dr Bob's Big Book from his son.
Archives fall into an area where, as collectors items, their monetary
value could be enormous. But there is also the historical value of the
items integral to the founding of AA which might very well take
precedence.

I suspect that if the manuscript were donated to AA the decision would
likely be up to the Conference on what to do and how to do it. I know
of deceased members who have bequeathed papers, books and other
assorted artifacts and memorabilia to the AA Archives. The collectors
value of the items would exceed $2,000 by orders of magnitude. So I
don't know if there is any notion of a cap on the monetary value.

Oh how I would love to find out, for certain, who "Dr Howard" was.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jlobdell54
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:19 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Printer's Copy and Dr. Howard

Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of
either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given
year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been
given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives

are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS

restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ"

I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane

at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park
Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell








Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3112 Sally Brown
Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 1/27/2006 12:36:00 AM

How interesting to learn of another early AA woman!

Still another was Mary Campbell, from somewhere in the South, I believe.
Dave and I don't know her sobriety date or when she arrived in AA, but it
was before April 1939 when Marty Mann went from Blythewood to her first AA
meeting, held at the Wilsons' home in Brooklyn. Mary actually visited Marty
at Blythewood. She relapsed in 1944, then returned to AA and stayed sober
until she died in the 1990s.

Maybe there are other early regional examples.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics
Anonymous
United Church of Christ

www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
1470 Sand Hill Road, 309
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net

0 -1 0 0
3113 Glenn Chesnut
Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery 1/31/2006 2:47:00 PM

The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a
prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the
bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top.

The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the
handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have
been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed
on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed
pretty convincing to me.

But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in the
group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the
prescription?
______________________________

From: "Cheryl F" <learning3legacies@cox.net> (learning3legacies at cox.net)
Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:43pm
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Trust God, Clean House, Help Others

The saying came from Dr. Bob. It was written on one of Dr.Bob's prescription
pads. I've seen a copy of it in the archives.

Cheryl F
Leander Tx
______________________________

From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com)
Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Trust God, Clean House, Help Others

Ya might check this out....

http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html

Dr. Bob wrote this prescription- 1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others
______________________________




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3114 John S.
RE: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others Trust God, Clean House, Help Others 1/28/2006 9:00:00 PM

From: "John S." <quasso@mindspring.com> (quasso at mindspring.com)
Trust God, Clean House, Help Others

"The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house." Pg 98 BB

The only other reference I've heard is Franklin W. from Olive Branch MS who
claimed authorship of the phrase "Trust God, Clean House and help others." Of
course the principle of helping others is all throughout our literature.

In love and service
John
______________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR:

The sentence on page 98 in the Big Book gives us two thirds of the phrase
("trust in God and clean house"), but the full phrase "Trust God, Clean House,
Help Others" does not show up in the Big Book in those precise words.

Members have written in showing that these words could be used as short
summaries of numerous things which are said in the Big Book.

But showing all the parallels in the Big Book to the basic teaching of this
little slogan does not, in and of itself, tell us who added "help others" to the
phrase on page 98 in the Big Book, and began popularizing it as an AA slogan.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana
______________________________

From: Toto24522@aol.com (Toto24522 at aol.com)

Big Book page 164 A Vision for You

" ....... you must remember that your real reliance is always upon Him. (Trust
God)
Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is
still sick. ( Help others)
The answers will come, if your own house is in order. ( Clean House)
See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come
to pass for you and countless others."

"Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. (Trust God)
Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows.
Clear away the wreckage of your past. (Clean House)
Give freely of what you find and join us. ( Help Others)

"We shall be with you in the Fellowship
of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of
us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny.

May God bless you and keep you -- until then."

In simple form, the steps are:

1-3: Trust God
4-11: Clean House
12: Help Others
______________________________

From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Source of "clean house, trust God, help others":

For the basic ideas, see Big Book pages 14-15, 89, 90, 94, 97, 98, 132.

Also Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pages 56, 60, 63.

My own viewpoint:

Clean house:

Step 1 (of booze or forget about all the other Steps), then Steps 4
thru 10 (to clear away the obstacles we put in God's way and then
continue the housecleaning regularly with Step 10)

Trust in God:

Steps 2, 3, 6, 7, 11 (culminating in the regular practice of praying
only for knowledge of God's will and power to carry it out)

Help others:

Steps 8, 9 and 12 (in the spirit of the "golden rule" or "greatest
commandment" as my church calls it).

There are a number of places around the country that describe Steps
10, 11 and 12 as "maintenance Steps." Clean house, trust in God and
help others certainly is a nice concise description of these Steps
(sort of like Dr Bob reducing them all down to "love and service").

As for where the saying "clean house, trust in God and help others"
originated, my guess will be that several hundred locations will claim
it originated in their local area, and they will all be correct (rule
# 62).

Cheers
Arthur

0 -1 0 0
3115 robin_foote
AA in India: arranging counselling for known offenders AA in India: arranging counselling for known offenders 1/29/2006 8:17:00 PM

Helping them kick the bottle

Staff Reporter


Alcoholics Anonymous arranges counselling for known offenders

CHENNAI - India: Alcoholics Anonymous, the liquor de-addiction support
group, will tie up with the city police to help repeat offenders kick the
bottle.

At a meeting held at the Zion Church in Chindatripet on Friday, Alcoholics
Anonymous invited a group of more than 100 known offenders and their
families and counselled on how life without liquor could change them. The
invitees even had a role model they aspire to become: a person who had a
history of criminal life but had reformed over the past two years.

The coordinator for the programme said the idea was for those present to
have someone to relate to. "He is someone they can relate to. He was a
repeated offender for over 10 years. He eventually gave up liquor and
reformed himself." The organisers said Police Commissioner R. Nataraj, who
was the chief guest, was so impressed with the idea that he even offered the
auditoria in three new police stations for conducting future meetings.

Representatives of Alcoholics Anonymous said de-addiction programmes and
support groups closely worked with police and prison authorities in the
United States for the past six decades. They hoped that similar programmes
would be possible in the future.

Tamil Nadu <http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/29/23hdline.htm> - Chennai
<http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2006012915490300.h
tm&date=2006/01/29/&prd=th&>
<http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2006012915490300.h
tm&date=2006/01/29/&prd=th&>

http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/29/stories/2006012915490300.htm

Copyright C 2006, The Hindu. Republication or redissemination of the
contents of this screen are expressly prohibited without the written consent
of The Hindu.











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3116 Shakey1aa@aol.com
1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 1/29/2006 4:42:00 PM

My sponsor told me about AA having a "statement of principles" in 1950. He
tells me they originally came out in 1948 but that no proof is obtainable from
New York. Does anyone know about this?

The statement of principles of 1948 is in Appendix G in Mitch K's book "How it
Worked."

Does anyone know why these were replaced by the 1950 statement of principles.
Do they give General Service more power?

Why does Royal S., the attorney who incorporated the Grapevine, on pg 199 say
the trustees suppressed the statement of 1948?

t/y Shakey Mike G.

Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

0 -1 0 0
3117 mertonmm3
Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 1/29/2006 5:00:00 AM

Hi Rick,

As Stated in my original post this appears to be the draft edited by
Hank P. and Dr. Howard. It does not appear to be anything like a draft
that a publisher could work from and if you look closely at the 4
pages from the Sotheby's Catelog I think you will agree. Its quite
obviously an intermediate sort of draft as it doesn't remotely agree
with the finished product. Also as stated previously there are two
handwritten references to Dr. Howard and most of the handwriting is
Hank P.'s in my opinion. I disagee with the Sotheby assertion that
this is the final copy that went to Cornwall Press. This document is
far more significant historically. I am quite cautious with such an
assertion as their experts are quite meticulous.

Please look to what's available facimilewise rather than what
secondhand reporters tell us.

All the best!!

-merton

----------------------------------------------------------

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins"
<ricktompkins@c...> wrote:
>
> The "Printer's draft" manuscript of the Big Book was sold in June
2004 for 1.56 million dollars, through a telephone bid from California
to the auction site in NYC. Bill P. of Hazelden Press verified its
authenticity at the time, after his report of viewing the entire
manuscript on what we know as our 'first 164 pages.' From what I have
learned, this one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the
Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in February 1939---the
linotype operators made the galleys of Alcoholics Anonymous from this
draft.
> $1.56 million is a great deal of private money, but I wonder if the
artifact will ever be shown to the general AA public. Such a shame!
even the AA Archives at GSO stayed away from the auction fracas, with
AAWS having no opinion on this outside issue: the fiscal speculation
of AA archival items.
> The manuscript was the property of Barry L., confidant of Lois and
the writer of AAWS' Living Sober in 1973. Lois gave it to him the
mid-1970s and Barry's grand-nephew put it up on the auction block last
year
> Honestly, I was saddened that the nephew never considered
contributing it to the AA Archives at GSO, even with its potential tax
write-off.
> In serenity,
> Rick, Illinois
>

0 -1 0 0
3118 mr.grassroots
Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed 1/28/2006 10:13:00 PM

I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of
the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago but seem
to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing
since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.)

In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this
work? different printings? Total number printed?

Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in.

0 -1 0 0
3119 mertonmm3
Re: Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard Printer''s Copy and Dr. Howard 1/29/2006 5:29:00 AM

The name Curry is extremely interesting as it was one of names
mentioned by Bill and Hank during their 2 week stock redemption
debate, as a creditor of Henry G. Parkhurst, Inc. (unincorporated in
reality)(the name Honor Dealers was not used in this discussion, Hank'
contention was that he was principally liable as the company bore his
namesake so he owned the furniture. Bill pointed out that as treasurer
, an officer, he was equally liable). One of the other creditors was
Sinclair Oil.

As I stated originally after reviewing the 4 pages from the Sotheby's
catelog its my very stong opinion that this wasn't a "publisher's
draft" but rather an intermittent draft and is mostly in Hank P's and
very likely the mysterious Dr. Howard's hand. The one page in Bill's
hand was written many years after publication. Hopefully more people
can view the photo fascimiles from the catelog to understand my point.

If there's anyone living in the Essex or Morris County area's please
check the various city directories for Dr. Marcus A. Curry.

Thank you jlobdell for this possible lead into identifying the elusive
Dr. Howard. Greystone Park yielded several very early members
including Morgan R., from Glen Ridge, who spoke on the radio about AA.

Source - documents in GSO Archives 1939-40 for unpublished yet Black
Sheep manuscript)

All the Best!!!
-merton

-----------------------------------------







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jlobdell54" <jlobdell54@h...>
wrote:
>
> Given that AA cannot accept gifts from non-members and only gifts of
> either $1000 or $2000 (I'm not sure which) from members in any given
> year, it's not clear to me how the Printer's Copy could have been
> given to AA. Correct me if I am wrong. So far as I know, the Archives
> are not separately incorporated and must therefore fall under the AAWS
> restriction, I believe. On the name of the "Chief Psychiatrist of NJ"
> I suggest Marcus A. Curry, Chief at the NJ State Asylum for the Insane
> at Greystone Park during the years 1936-40 (from the Greystone Park
> Annual Reports 1936-40 in the NJ State Archives). -- Jared Lobdell
>

0 -1 0 0
3120 Rich Foss
Sauerkraut remedy Sauerkraut remedy 1/28/2006 12:13:00 PM

An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice
treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with
replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our
literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob and
the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's
simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way
out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut.
Thanks.
Rich

0 -1 0 0
3121 David Jones
Change of terms Change of terms 1/30/2006 10:38:00 AM

Hi. Does any one know why the term ex-alcoholic was replaced with ex-problem
drinker in the big book.

God bless

Dave

0 -1 0 0
3122 John Pine
Ray O''K died Jan. 28th Ray O''K died Jan. 28th 1/27/2006 11:18:00 AM

FYI, an eloquent and influential member of the fellowship, Ray O'K., died in
Florida earlier this week and will be buried in Larchmont, NY on Saturday,
1/28. Here is a link to a newspaper obituary.
http://www.nyjnews.com/obituary/obit.php3?id=1912213

John P.
Richmond, VA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3123 Soberholic
Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 1/28/2006 1:51:00 AM

Has anybody has ever brought up a question about the connection between the
theory of the enneagram and the 4th Step in 12x12? Does anyone know if Bill W.
was aware of the early enneagram movement?

In the theory of the enneagram, in the instinctual subtypes, each type also has
three main instinctual subtypes - the Self-Preservation, Sexual and Social
subtypes.

In the area of ego-fixations & the deadly sins, the Enneagram types have also
been correlated with the traditional Seven Deadly Sins plus two additional
descriptors - 'deceit' and 'fear'. The '7 sins + 2' need to be understood in a
much more specific meaning than usual."

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram

0 -1 0 0
3124 Glenn Chesnut
National Archives Workshop National Archives Workshop 2/2/2006 1:52:00 PM

Because of the hurricane which struck New Orleans just
before the National Archives Workshop was to take place,
it has had to be rescheduled and relocated to another part
of Louisiana. We have had to miss a year, to allow these
new accommodations to be obtained, but everything is now
set up to hold the workshop in Baton Rouge.

10th Annual National Archives Workshop
September 14-17, 2006
Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Holiday Inn South
9940 Airline HiWay
Baton Rouge, Louisiana. 70816
(255) 924-7021 Fax: (225) 924-9816
Mention N.A.W. (by August 31, 2006) for $79.00 room rate.

http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/

Co-Chairs:

Jimmy H. phone 504-382-9286 or email
jhardingnola@cox.net (jhardingnola at cox.net)

Bobby B. phone 337-662-3402 or email
danieb@att.net (danieb at att.net)

__________________________________

Sent to us by: "Area64archives.org"
daggerrose@area64tnarchives.org (daggerrose at area64tnarchives.org)
http://area64tnarchives.org/1stquarter2006/index.html

0 -1 0 0
3125 j_oys5672
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed Alcoholics Anonymous C.O.A. - Harper Bros. information needed 2/1/2006 5:04:00 PM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mr.grassroots" <mr.grassroots@...>
wrote:
>
> I posted a request for information on the Harper Brothers printings of
> the volume "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" some time ago but seem
> to have a problem connecting/receiveing feedback. (Probably my doing
> since I am not completely familiar with this board yet.)
>
> In general I was wondering as to how many copies Harpers did of this
> work? different printings? Total number printed?
>
> Thank You in advance for your patience and will keep checking back in.
>


Good Afternoon Mr. Grassroots


I would suggest contacting the Archives desk at the General Service Office in
New York.

They should be able to provide you with the information that you are seeking. I
believe it
should also be available in the 1957 Final Conference Report.


Thelr Ph. # is (212)-870-8700 , website www.aa.org


In Service


Jerry

0 -1 0 0
3126 Ernest Kurtz
Accident Accident 2/1/2006 4:58:00 PM

Friends (and a few others),

On Saturday, Jan. 28th, I suffered a serious accident that, though
non-fatal, will substantially lay me up for some time. Please do not
write of your sympapthy and concern, in which I trust. I came home
from the hospital to over 700 messages. I will reply according to my
ability and larger priorities.

Thank you for your consideration.

ernie kurtz

___________________________________

From the moderator:

Dr. Kurtz, a Harvard-trained historian, is the author of "Not God:
A History of Alcoholics Anonymous" and "The Spirituality of
Imperfection: Storytelling and the Search for Meaning."

He is widely recognized as the leading academic historian
in the field of AA history. A good history of the AA
movement in the 20th century will have to include a section
on his major ideas and contributions.

The title of his major book reminds us that we must first recognize
that we ourselves are NOT God before we will turn to the higher
power of the twelve step program (who is the REAL God) and
ask for help.

I do not have any information myself, beyond what appears in Ernie's
letter. If I learn more, I will let you know.

Glenn Chesnut

0 -1 0 0
3127 Peggy Anna
Re: Sauerkraut remedy Sauerkraut remedy 1/31/2006 5:26:00 PM

I have a book written in 1993 by Don Julio DeMedici Santaleone, entitled
"The James Connection or Sauerkraut, Tomatoes, and Karo Syrup" The author
has been a member of AA for over 20 years now and lives in Rochester, New
York. In his introduction he states "as related in Dr. Bob and the Good
Oldtimers (p 74) a detoxification treatment of a combination of tomatoes,
sauerkraut and Karo corn syrup was administered by Bill W. to Dr. Bob in
order to supply Bob with vitamins and energy so that Bob could perform
surgery".

Peggy Anna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Foss" <richfoss@adelphia.net>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:13 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sauerkraut remedy


>
> An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice
> treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with
> replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our
> literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob
> and
> the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's
> simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way
> out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut.
> Thanks.
> Rich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3128 James Bliss
Re: Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 Enneagram and 4th Step in 12x12 1/31/2006 5:31:00 PM

From a quick research on the Eneagram, the theory was
not formulated until 1960 (the nine types), which means
that it had no association with the development of the
4th step. Please see:

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp

It describes the various people in the wikipedia discussion
and what their theories were.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
3129 chesbayman56
Significant February dates in A.A. History Significant February dates in A.A. History 2/1/2006 10:23:00 AM

Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang.
Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill & sophomore class
suspended
Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from
professionalization.
Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use
in his practice.
Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts"
for "we ought" in the Big Book.
Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC.
Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in
pamphlet form for many years.
Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA.
Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is
published.
Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get
married.
Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner.
Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA
by Larry J.
Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died.
Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank
P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this
as happening Feb 13, 1937
Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition)
sobriety date.
Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W.
Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem,
NC.
Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was
born.
Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA
group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members.
Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two
years before, at a New York AA meeting.
Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the
right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases.
Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA
dies.
Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on
AA by Seymour Rothman.
Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to
tape the Big Book.
Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held
at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street.

0 -1 0 0
3130 ny-aa@att.net
Trust God, Clean House, Help Others Trust God, Clean House, Help Others 1/31/2006 5:09:00 PM

It was interesting that we are discussing the prescription to
"Trust God, Clean House, Help Others" at the time the phrase
appears in the obituary of Ray OK. It is a clever way to speak
of his A.A. membership without actually mentioning Alcoholics
Anonymous:

... Following the credo: “Trust God, Clean House
and Help Others“, Mr. [O'K] was active in many
organizations and fellowships. He was well known for
his work with the New York State Bar Association,
where he was Chairman of the Committee on Lawyer
Alcoholism. He also worked tirelessly on issues
relating to alcoholism in the legal profession
with the ABA and ILAA. ...

http://www.nyjnews.com/obituary/obit.php3?id=1912213
-----

0 -1 0 0
3131 Jim S.
Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/1/2006 2:30:00 PM

I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings and
sponsor, I have even checked the internet.

How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories instead
of in the main section (164 pgs)?

I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages.

Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, except that
Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't.

Thank you for being here,

Jim S/Pensacola, FL

0 -1 0 0
3132 ArtSheehan
RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/4/2006 5:54:00 PM

Hi Diz

As the eloquent John Wayne would have said "hold on there pilgrim."

The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the
legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered
up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to
attend a meeting.

I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated
with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date
(June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic
City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935).

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date
through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA
in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making
the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same
time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241
later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large
steel company."

The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time"
[relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to
confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S
stayed sober for only a few months.

"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One
Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R,
at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't
also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that
that she had already fell off the wagon and departed?

The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter
part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of
the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the
book was published April 4, 1939).

Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I
got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She
then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript
versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was
several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in
her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?].

So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It
seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative
values denoted by "about" or "more than."

Is Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th
(that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the
difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)?

Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late
January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late
March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then
Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more
than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has
primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a
day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what?

So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed
dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly
about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the
elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then
by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a
founder.

However, it probably boils down to "truth by choice." In any event the
matter is not by any means certain.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Diz Titcher
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:58 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First woman was Jane S., not Florence

The first woman was Jane S. in Akron and she beat Florence by one
month.

Diz T.

______________________________

From: "mertonmm3" <mertonmm3@yahoo.com> (mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)

Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which
functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman
(Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of
the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became
number 2.
______________________________


Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3133 ArtSheehan
RE: Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/3/2006 1:45:00 AM

Hi Jim

"Bill's Story" and "There is a Solution" were the first two chapters
written. They were used as examples to show what the book would be
like while it was being developed.

I don't think the early AA members shared your viewpoint about what
comprised "the important stuff" in the Big Book. Quite often members
will trumpet the "basic text" of the Big Book and give short-shrift to
the personal stories. The "basic text" very much suggests otherwise.

Also, in "AA Comes of Age" (pg 164) Bill W writes "We had not gone
much farther with the text of the book when it was evident that
something more was needed. There would have to be a story or case
history section. We would have to produce evidence in the form of
living proof, written testimonials of our membership itself. It was
felt also that the story section could identify us with the distant
reader in a way that the text itself might not."

Among the "important stuff" in the Big Book basic text there are 5
explicit references to the personal stories:

1 - Page 29:

"Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered.
These are followed by forty-three [forty-two in the 4th edition]
personal experiences. Each individual, in the personal stories,
describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way
he established his relationship with God. These give a fair cross
section of our membership and a clear-cut idea of what has actually
happened in their lives.

We hope no one will consider these self-revealing accounts in bad
taste. Our hope is that many alcoholic men and women, desperately in
need, will see these pages, and we believe that it is only by fully
disclosing ourselves and our problems that they will be persuaded to
say, "Yes, I am one of them too; I must have this thing."

2 - Page 50:

"In our personal stories you will find a wide variation in the way
each teller approaches and conceives of the Power which is greater
than himself. Whether we agree with a particular approach or
conception seems to make little difference. Experience has taught us
that these are matters about which, for our purpose, we need not be
worried. They are questions for each individual to settle for himself.

On one proposition, however, these men and women are strikingly
agreed. Every one of them has gained access to, and believes in, a
Power greater than himself. This Power has in each case accomplished
the miraculous, the humanly impossible. As a celebrated American
statesman put it, "Let's look at the record."

3 - Page 55:

"In this book you will read the experience of a man who thought he was
an atheist. His story is so interesting that some of it should be told
now. His change of heart was dramatic, convincing, and moving."

4 - Page 58 (a familiar reading at meetings):

"Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what
happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what
we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are
ready to take certain steps." [note: this was not written to be the
format of a speaker meeting - it was written to get the reader to read
the stories to find out what they had].

5 - Pages 112-113:

.. But after his next binge, ask him if he would really like to get
over drinking for good. Do not ask if he would do it for you or anyone
else. Just would he like to?

The chances are he would. Show him your copy of this book and tell him
what you have found out about alcoholism. Show him that as alcoholics,
the writers of the book understand. Tell him some of the interesting
stories you have read. If you think he will be shy of a spiritual
remedy, ask him to look at the chapter on alcoholism. Then perhaps he
will be interested enough to continue.

I've often wondered how those who purchase the abridged edition are
able to follow the instructions in the basic text without the material
that the basic text makes reference to.

"The Doctor's Opinion" by Dr Silkworth, started as page 1 in the 1st
edition Big Book. Dr Esther L Richards of John Hopkins Hospital in
Baltimore, was sent a copy of the first two chapters mentioned above.
She wrote to Bill that he should get a first rate medical view at the
beginning of the book.

So Bill W's story starts the numbered chapters and Dr Bob's story
starts the personal stories. Seems like a good fit for both our
co-founders. After all, Bill W was AA #1 and Dr Bob was AA #2. AA #3
didn't make it into the book until the 2nd edition (his discharge from
the hospital marked the start of AA's first group Akron #1).

The first page in the Big Book starts immediately after the front
cover. The last page ends immediately prior to the back cover. My
friendly appeal to you would be to consider the "important stuff" to
be everything that exists between those two covers. This way you get
your full money's worth. (rule #62)

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim S.
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 1:31 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W and Dr. Bob


I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings and
sponsor, I have even checked the internet.

How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories instead
of in the main section (164 pgs)?

I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages.

Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit, except
that
Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't.

Thank you for being here,

Jim S/Pensacola, FL









Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3134 ny-aa@att.net
Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/4/2006 12:21:00 AM

Doctor Bob's story is in the first part of the Big Book as well
as being the first chapter in the story section. It starts on
page 155 in "A vision for You." It has been talking about Bill's
"journey to a certain western city" when he needed to talk to
another alcoholic. Reference to "a certain resident of that town"
means Dr Bob. Then the story of AA Number three is introduced
on page 156 where he is "a first class alcoholic prospect."

BTW: When the Big Book was first published, did they ever say
that the stories weren't "important stuff" as implied here? :-)
When the Big Book said that a new prospect should "read this
book," it didn't say he should only read "part of this book."
I wonder when that trend to worshiping the first part while
dismissing the story part started happening.

"Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like,
what happened to us, and what we are like now -- but you don't
need to read those stories." Bah! It's time for a reality check.
They included "our personal adventures before and after" for
a good reason other than to make the book thicker.
____________________
En2joy! Tom En2ger

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Jim S." <woodstock953@yahoo.com>
>
> I have asked these questions several times in my F2F meetings
> and sponsor, I have even checked the internet.
>
> How did Dr. Bob wind up in the back of the BB with the stories
> instead of in the main section (164 pgs)?
>
> I usually relate the important stuff to the first 181 pages.
>
> Really don't understand why Dr. Bob isn't given more credit,
> except that Bill was a salesman and Dr. Bob wasn't.
>
> Thank you for being here,
>
> Jim S/Pensacola, FL
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3135 Diz Titcher
Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/2/2006 3:50:00 PM

From: "Diz Titcher" <rtitcher@comcast.net> (rtitcher at comcast.net)

Bill wrote the book.
______________________________

From: jocis007@aol.com (jocis007 at aol.com)

They agreed that Bill's story would go first, and
Doctor Bob's story would be the finish. It was done
in such masterly form. Don't you agree?
______________________________

From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net> (snowlily at megalink.net)

My take on it is that Bob was a very low-key guy and focused on
Twelfth Step work and trying to keep Bill for franchising the
program in the first few years. If Dr. Bob had been the one to get
the message out to the world, it would have remained in Akron for a
very long time. I can find nothing that indicates that Bill did
anything unsavory to get his image the way it ended up. The Big Book
was approved by the entire membership at the time, so Dr. Bob must
have had a chance to speak up about just where his story was. I
actually see Bill as a much larger influence as to the formation of
the Fellowship than Dr. Bob. I think Bob's primary role was keeping
a lid on Bill grandiosity and serving as Bill's friend and
confidante.
lee
______________________________
From the moderator, Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)

Let's not over analyze and forget the obvious! There
are people who can sing beautifully but cannot play a
musical instrument. Their musical skills extend to
their mouths but not to their fingers, because it seems
to involve training a different part of the brain.

Dr. Bob was someone who could talk to you, and explain
to you orally what you had to do to get sober, better
than anybody else in early AA. But if you look at the
few things that he wrote, once you put a pen in his
hand, he kind of froze up, and what came out was kind
of wooden and not very well expressed.

There have been many people in AA since then who were
wonderful sponsors, and could stand up and give
marvelous leads, but were not good writers. We've
got a heck of a lot of good people like that.

But Bill W. was real writer. I don't know how he
managed to write all those hundreds of beautiful
letters to people. And if you look at "As Bill
Sees It," you can see how, even in the middle of
an ordinary little letter that he just tossed off
in a few minutes, there would often be buried
passages of profound spiritual wisdom.

You can't criticize other people for not having
that kind of extraordinary skill. And it would
have been foolish in the extreme to play silly
games and insist on all of the first forty AA's
being given exactly 4.1 pages to write in the
first 164 pages of the Big Book, no more, no less.

But this posed a problem when it came time to write
the Big Book. Bill W. certainly couldn't have
written Dr. Bob's story for him, that would have
been arrogant and rude. So he had to concentrate
in the book on the part that he had a right to talk
about, about Ebby's visit to him, and how the
scales fell from his eyes and he found the path
of healing for himself, when Ebby told him what
he had learned from the Oxford Group.

And then he gave Dr. Bob the place of honor at
the head of the story section, but kept the
part Dr. Bob had to write fairly small, so Dr.
Bob would be able to handle it.

It would be great if Dr. Bob had also had the
writing skills to explain exactly what he was
thinking and feeling when he and Bill W. first
met, oh boy would it be great, but he didn't
have those skills.

Nevertheless, when we put up pictures of the
founders, we give Bill W. and Dr. Bob equal
honor, with their portraits side by side.
That's the important symbolism. Nobody tries
to make the portrait of Bill W. bigger than
the portrait of Dr. Bob.

Let's just be grateful that we had several
people in early AA who did have remarkable
writing skills, like Bill W. and Richmond Walker
and Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and Ed Webster.
While also being grateful for the far greater
number of people who knew how to be effective
sponsors, and how to deal with suffering
alcoholics on a one on one basis. We needed
ALL of them in order for us to receive God's
grace in its fullness.

Along with the guy who shows up an hour in
advance of every meeting and unlocks the building
and makes the coffee, and says hello to you when
you walk in, and is GLAD to see you. And you
can count on him, and you know he's going to be
there. And when you're hurting, he saves your
life too, just as much as the others.

In a little piece called the Tools of Recovery
(http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html) which is often
read at meetings in my part of Indiana, the sixth
tool is Service, and it says simply, "Service
helps our personal program grow. Service is
giving in A.A. Service is leading a meeting,
making coffee, moving chairs, being a sponsor,
or emptying ashtrays. Service is action, and
action is the magic word in this program."

When I make coffee for a meeting, or help
move chairs, or empty ashtrays, I do not regard
it as a lower and inferior kind of service work.
I do everything on that little list in the
Tools of Recovery, and everything else that
people ask me to do. All service is of equal
honor in the eyes of God. I don't go around
giving leads as a conference speaker on a
regular basis because there are people in the
program far more talented than I am in that
area. My own story really isn't very interesting.
But I treasure and honor the people we have who
DO have good stories, and ARE good at giving
leads in front of big conferences.

Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), the Catholic
priest from Indiana, found that because the
Catholic Church in those days required priests
to wear clerical collars at all times, that he
couldn't do a good job of making twelve step
calls. All alcoholics could see was his
clerical collar, and they couldn't identify
with him, and they found it very threatening
and frightening. He desperately wanted to do
something which would be of service to his
fellow alcoholics, and finally turned to leading
weekend spiritual retreats and then to writing
his Golden Books, not because he thought that
being a writer was more important or more
glamorous, but because it was the only kind of
service work that he seemed to be any good at!

0 -1 0 0
3136 ckbudnick
California Bill California Bill 2/3/2006 2:01:00 PM

In Message 3129, "Significant February dates in A.A. History "
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3129
it says:

Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill"
dies in Winston Salem, NC.

Who was William Y. "California Bill" and what is his
significance in AA history?

Thanks.

Chris
Raleigh, NC

0 -1 0 0
3137 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Pat McC - Philadelphia longtimer Pat McC - Philadelphia longtimer 2/3/2006 9:16:00 AM

Pat McC. of Audubon, NJ, formerly of Yeadon, Pa. died Feb 1st with 57 years
of sobriety. He came in thru the 4021 clubhouse and was going to be one of
the 5 longtime speakers on Sunday 3/12/06 3 P.M. when the club will celebrate
their 60th anniversary.Another AA who showed us that long term sobriety is
possible a day at a time with the help of a Higher Power and following the
suggestions of our program.
Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3138 Gene
From We Agnostics..Professor Langley From We Agnostics..Professor Langley 2/3/2006 2:44:00 PM

As part of my continuing project to share esoteric refrences in the
Big Book from Bill W's idiom of the time...(1930's)
I'm sending this about the refrence to professor Langley's flying
machine Chapter 4, Page 51; We Agnostics.
"Professor Langley's airplane sank in the Potomic River".....

From We Agnostics, (P 51 Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous)

Bill W. was moved by the story of a man's dreams and the ridicule of
the press and the fact that a man could eventually fly.

Samuel Pierpont Langley
Samuel Pierpont Langley (1834 - 1906) is often used as a contrast to
the Wrights. Unlike the two brothers, Langley was highly-educated and
had more than ample funding in support of his efforts to develop an
airplane. His stature at Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution
lent great credibility to his efforts to build an airplane, as did
his success with the unmanned aerodromes. In particular, his
Aerodrome No. 6 flew 4,200 feet at about 30 mph on November 28, 1896.
This unmanned tandem-wing craft employed a lightweight steam engine
for propulsion. The wings were set at a distinct dihedral angle so
that the craft was dynamically stable, capable of righting itself
when disturbed by a sideways breeze. There was no method of steering
this craft, nor would it have been easy to add any means to control
the direction the craft flew.
From the success of No. 6, Langley was able to convince the War
Department (a.k.a. Department of Defense) to contribute $50,000
toward the development of a person-carrying machine. The Smithsonian
contributed a like sum towards Langley's efforts. Charles Manley
developed an extraordinary radial-cylinder internal combustion engine
that developed 52 horsepower for the man-carrying Great Aerodrome.
Langley felt it would be safest to fly over water, so he spent almost
half of his funds constructing a houseboat with a catapult that would
be capable of launching his new craft.
The Great Aerodrome might have flown if Langley had chosen a more
traditional means of launching the craft from the ground. The pilot
still would have lacked any means of steering the plane, and so faced
dangers aplenty. But it might have at least gotten into the air.
Unfortunately, Langley chose to stick with his 'tried-and-true'
approach of catapult launches. The plane had to go from a dead stop
to the 60 m.p.h. flying speed in only 70 feet. The stress of the
catapult launch was far greater than the flimsy wood-and-fabric
airplane could stand. The front wing was badly damaged in the first
launch of October 7, 1903. A reporter who witnessed the event claimed
it flew "like a handful of mortar." Things went even worse during the
second launch of December 9, 1903, where the rear wing and tail
completely collapsed during launch. Charles Manley nearly drowned
before he could be rescued from the wreckage and the ice-covered
Potomac river.
Needless to say, the Washington critics had a field day. The Brooklyn
Eagle quoted Representative Hitchcock as saying, "You tell Langley
for me ... that the only thing he ever made fly was Government
money." Representative Robinson characterized Langley as "a
professor ... wandering in his dreams of flight ... who was given to
building ... castles in the air."
The War Department, in its final report on the Langley project,
concluded "we are still far from the ultimate goal, and it would seem
as if years of constant work and study by experts, together with the
expenditure of thousands of dollars, would still be necessary before
we can hope to produce an apparatus of practical utility on these
lines." Eight days after Langley's spectacular failure, a sturdy,
well-designed craft, costing about $1000, struggled into the air in
Kitty Hawk, defining for all time the moment when humankind mastered
the skies.
In spite of 18 years of well-funded and concerted effort by Langley
to achieve immortality, his singular contribution to the invention of
the airplane was the pair of 30-lb aerodromes that flew in 1914.. He
died in 1906 after a series of strokes, a broken and disappointed man.


More>>>>

----------------------------------------------------------------------
(photo)

A very short history of the airplane.
Professor Langley was a respected astronomer. He invented the
bolometer, an instrument that measures small amounts of microwave or
infared radiation by detecting changes in electrical resistance on a
thin heat sensitive metal conductor. (This will be on the test) His
name lives on in a unit of energy flux. At the end of the 19th
Century he was head of the Smithsonian Institute, which in those days
was a serious scientific organization. He started to experiment with
model airplanes. These experiments culminated in a couple of Steam
Models that earned him a permanent place in pre Wright Brothers
aviation.
These successes lead to his being asked by the Department of War to
construct a man carrying air craft. It didn't fly. Twice the
Aerodrome, as he called it, was catapulted off the roof of a house
boat and twice it fell into the Potomac river "Like a handful of wet
mortar." Soon after he died, some say broken by the ridicule with
which the press treated the event. And the airplane languished in the
Smithsonian.
In the meantime the Wright Brothers flew, and patented, their
airplane. They were quite aggressive about pursuing what they
considered violations of this patent, and set American aviation back
by years. Glen Curtiss was one of the individuals who wanted to avoid
paying the Wright's considerable royalties and he embarked on a
series of lawsuits that was to drag on for years.
In about 1914, in an effort to show that the Wright Brothers didn't
make the first airplane capable of flight he approached the
Smithsonian with an offer to see if he could make the remains of the
Aerodrome fly. The Smithsonian who stood to recover from shame and
ridicule agreed to this. But the Aerodrome was fundamentally unsound,
so Curtiss took it upon himself to make many modifications. He
eventually achieved limited flight. Among the changes were,
replacing the motor and the two primitive propellers mounted behind
the forward wing with a tractor prop powered by a more modern engine.
He also gave up on catapulting it off a houseboat and fitted it with
floats. Orville Wright was particularly insistant that Langley had
the center of pressure in the wrong places and that Curtiss applied
the Wright Bros discoveries to rerig the wing bracing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


(photo)
THIS PICTURE SHOWS AN EARLY CURTISS INCARNATION


http://www.rense.com/general12/cig.htm

Gene from Westchester

0 -1 0 0
3139 gbaa487
Bill''s debt from stock market collapse Bill''s debt from stock market collapse 2/3/2006 11:08:00 PM

On page 4 of Bill's story he tells us of the collapse of the market.
My understanding is that it put him in about $650,000 (today's value)
in debt. How and when did he get out of that debt?

Thanks......this is the best AA info site.

george,nyc

0 -1 0 0
3140 nancy miller
First lesbian or gay AA member? First lesbian or gay AA member? 2/3/2006 8:14:00 PM

Who was the first lesbian or gay man in the program?
I heard this women set up an organization that studies
alcoholism. Who was she ???

Nancy M
Thanks

________________________________

(This is with respect to the discussion over whether
Florence R. of Westfield N.J. or Jane S. in Akron was
the first woman to get sober in AA.)

0 -1 0 0
3141 merton m.
RE: 100 Hundred Men & Women? 100 Hundred Men & Women? 2/4/2006 1:12:00 AM

Hi Art,

I enjoyed this. The only techno is that Florence
lived in Westfield NJ rather than NY. Only people
like us care about such details.

When I was archives chair for N. Jersey 15 years
ago we photographed the beautiful home as well as
extensive photos of 9-11 Hill St and 17-19 William St.
in Newark, Hanks 1936 home at 575 Wyndum (sp?) in
Teneck where Lois diary said the Jersey drunks met
at times (carried into LR I believe), Hank and
Kathleen's much larger home at 344 N. Fullerton
in Montclair where they moved in 1937 and where
Bill and Lois stayed for a few months after
leaving the Heights. (along with Jim B.).

All these photos still hang on huge displays in
the intergroup office and are carried around the
country with the traveling committee.

All the Best,
-merton



ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:

The "and women" part turned out to be Florence R of
NY (as Merton noted) whose story is "A Feminine
Victory" (Marty M didn't arrive until after the
manuscript had been distributed). Florence R, was
the first woman in AA and was sober around a year
when she wrote her story. She later moved to Washington
DC to join up with Fitz M (whose story is "Our
Southern Friend") to help start AA there. Sadly,
Florence returned to drinking (Fitz M was called
to the morgue to identify her).

0 -1 0 0
3142 Tom Hickcox
RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/6/2006 5:24:00 PM

Diz and Art have presented answers to the question referred to in the
subject line of this email.

They appear to me at least to be addressing two separate but related questions.

Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then it could be addressed.

The question could be, "Who was the first woman working the program of what
became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's sobriety?"

While some of my contemporary colleagues think you are still a bit wet
behind the ears at one year, it was an awful long time for our Old Timers,
whose sobriety was measured in months.

That is the question; what is the answer?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3143 mertonmm3
Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/7/2006 3:47:00 AM

>Hi Art,

In GSO Archives the early members were given 1 page questioneers to
fill out which included self reported sobriety date, occupation, ect.
I specifically recall one that Florence presumably submitted. Post 64
on this site (by this sites founder) places Florence's date of entry
at March, 1937. This sound accurate but I'm missing my transcript of
this. A specific inquiry to NY regarding this questioneer will verify
the accuracy or inaccuracy as to the date if GSO responds. It would be
easiest to obtain from the microfische.

As you know Florence made contact with AA through her non-alcoholic
husband who was a friend and buisness associate of Bill's.

All the best,
-merton

0 -1 0 0
3144 Trysh Travis
San Francisco Bay area history San Francisco Bay area history 2/6/2006 10:05:00 PM

I am interested in finding out about the history of Bay-area 12-Step
culture during the late 1970s. I am curious about the growth of AA and
other organizations in San Francisco and Oakland, but also in
surrounding counties, especially Napa, Sonoma, and Mendocino. This part
of the country has a reputation for "crunchy" and New Age-y recovery,
but I'm not sure what that reputation is based on. I'd be grateful for
any sources folks can direct me to.

Thanks in advance.

Trysh Travis

ttravis@wst.ufl.edu (ttravis at wst.ufl.edu)

0 -1 0 0
3145 Sally Brown
Re: First lesbian or gay AA member? First lesbian or gay AA member? 2/7/2006 8:43:00 PM

Hi, Nancy - I think you must be referring to Marty Mann (see below), who
founded the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence (NCADD) when
she had 5 years' sobriety. She was not the first woman to come to AA, but
she was the first to achieve long-term sobriety. She arrived in AA in April
1939.

Also, she was lesbian. However, Dave (co-author of our biography of her) and
I never looked into whether she was the first LGBT. I think there may have
been one or two gay men before her, but I'd be surprised if there were
another lesbian. Maybe this posting will produce historical information for
all of us.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics
Anonymous
United Church of Christ

www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
1470 Sand Hill Road, 309
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net

0 -1 0 0
3146 ArtSheehan
RE: First lesbian or gay AA member? First lesbian or gay AA member? 2/8/2006 12:02:00 PM

Hi Nancy

Source abbreviations: (12&12)Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,
(AACOA)AA Comes of Age, (BW-FH) Bill W by Francis Hartigan, (DBGO) Dr
Bob and the Good Oldtimers, (MMM) Mrs Marty Mann by Sally and David
Brown, (PIO)Pass It On.

The first homosexual AA member likely entered the Fellowship in 1937
(“year two” on the “AA calendar”) in Akron, OH. It’s discussed in the
12&12 Tradition 3 essay but you’d be hard pressed to discover it. Its
specifics are obscured. The 12&12 Tradition 3 essay states:

“A newcomer appeared at one of these groups, knocked on the door and
asked to be let in. He talked frankly with that group's oldest member.
He soon proved that his was a desperate case, and that above all he
wanted to get well. "But," he asked, "will you let me join your group?
Since I am the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than
alcoholism, you may not want me among you. Or will you?"

“One of these groups” referred to Akron #1 in Ohio and the “oldest
member” was Dr Bob. The “addiction even worse stigmatized than
alcoholism” had nothing at all to do with drugs. Bill W later speaking
at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference described
the prospect’s “addiction” as “sex deviate.” The member was likely
homosexual. The language used by Bill to describe him was the language
of the time in the latter 1960s.

Guidance on what to do on the matter came from Dr Bob asking, “What
would the Master do?” The prospect was admitted (DBGO 240-241, also
the pamphlet “The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous” pg 30). The
member is then described in the 12&12 Tradition 3 essay as:

“Overjoyed, the newcomer plunged into Twelfth Step work. Tirelessly he
laid AA's message before scores of people. Since this was a very early
group, those scores have since multiplied themselves into thousands.
Never did he trouble anyone with his other difficulty. AA had taken
its first step in the formation of Tradition Three.”

I do not know who this member was or whether he had his story in the
1st edition Big Book. Oddly though, this Akron, OH member’s
circumstances are often erroneously intermingled with an incident that
occurred in New York 8 years later in 1945. The NY incident involved a
prominent, early homosexual member, Barry L, and an unknown homosexual
member who created quite a stir upon arrival.

Barry L (author of the book “Living Sober” discussed later below) was
likely the first male homosexual member of the Fellowship in New York.
The book “Pass It On” describes his calling Bill W from the 41st St
clubhouse in NYC to tell Bill of the arrival of “a black man who was
an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women’s clothing and
makeup.” The man also admitted to being a “dope fiend.” When asked
what to do about it, Bill W posed the question, “did you say he was a
drunk?” When answered “yes” Bill replied “well I think that’s all we
can ask” (BW-FH 8, PIO 317-318).

“Pass It On” goes on to state that “although he soon disappeared
(repeat “soon disappeared” for emphasis) the prospect’s presence
created a precedent for the 3rd Tradition.” Anecdotal accounts
erroneously say that the black man, in women’s clothing, went on to
become one of the best 12th Steppers in NY. Prior postings to AAHL
even went so far as giving him the name “Veronica” and claiming his
drug was heroin. It’s a myth - again as stated in “Pass It On” “he
soon disappeared.” Fragments of the 1945 story in New York, which
mentions “dope fiend” are intermingled with the 12&12 Tradition 3
essay, which occurred in Ohio, and mentions “an addiction” and
“plunged into 12th Step work.” It has created one of the most
persistent myths in AA.

Marty M was the first lesbian member of AA. On April 11, 1939, Marty,
at age 35, attended her first meeting at Bill W's home at 182 Clinton
St. For the prior 15 months, she was a charity patient at Bellevue
Hospital in NYC and the Blythewood Sanitarium in Greenwich, CT (under
the care of Dr Harry Tiebout). Dr Tiebout gave her a manuscript of the
Big Book and arranged for Marty to go to the meeting. Upon her return
to Blythewood, she told fellow patient, Grenville (Grennie) C “we are
not alone.” Marty later established an AA Group at the Sanitarium.
(BW-FH 8, 125-126, AACOA 3, 18-19, PIO 210-213, MMM 111-123)

Sally and David Brown’s excellent biography “Mrs Marty Mann” provides
substantial details on Marty and her relationship with Priscilla P
(who along with Marty and others started the AA Grapevine in June
1944). Their book also notes that Marty briefly returned to drinking
somewhere in between the latter 1950s to early 1960s. It was a well
kept secret in NY and in the NCA.

Nancy O, in her biographies of Big Book story authors, wrote that in
order to protect the work she was doing during a period of heavy
anti-gay bias, Marty never revealed her lesbianism except to Bill (her
sponsor) and other close friends. Her long-time lesbian partner,
Priscilla P, was once a glamorous art director at Vogue Magazine and
was the 5th woman Marty brought into AA.

Barry L’s involvement in the book “Living Sober” (noted earlier above)
is an interesting story. Published in 1975, the book had a bit of a
tortuous history. According to Bob P’s unpublished manuscript of AA
history from 1955 to 1985, around 1968, the Board discussed the need
for a pamphlet for sober old-timers, and the need to point out “traps”
or “danger signals.” Out of this grew a proposal for literature to be
developed around the topic, “How We Stay Sober.”

In 1969 it was assigned to a professional writer. After nearly 2 years
of work, the draft was rejected. The sense that it needed such drastic
revision led to it being started from scratch by Barry L, a seasoned,
skillful freelance writer and consultant for GSO.

Barry negotiated a flat fee for the project. After 4 1/2 years he came
up with a simple and practical manual on how to enjoy a happy,
productive life without drinking. “Living Sober” proved to be quite
popular and after it sold nearly a million copies, Barry felt he
should have been compensated more generously and receive some sort of
royalty. AAWS and the General Service Board declined. Barry threatened
legal action, but never followed through.

As an item of further interest, not long ago the mark-up manuscript of
the editorial changes for the 1st Ed Big Book was auctioned off at
over a million and a half dollars. The manuscript was given to Barry L
as a gift by Lois W.

Cheers
Arthur S

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nancy miller
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Cc: nancy miller
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First lesbian or gay AA member?

Who was the first lesbian or gay man in the program?
I heard this women set up an organization that studies
alcoholism. Who was she ???

Nancy M
Thanks

________________________________

(This is with respect to the discussion over whether
Florence R. of Westfield N.J. or Jane S. in Akron was
the first woman to get sober in AA.)





Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3147 Wendi Turner
Early gay member Barry L. ("Living Sober" author) Early gay member Barry L. ("Living Sober" author) 2/7/2006 7:19:00 PM

I don't know he was the very "the first" gay member
but I do know this man claims to be the member who
was asked to champion "Gay Meetings" by Bill Wilson...
his name was Barry L. and also the author of
Living Sober.

You can hear his talk online at www.xa-speakers.org>

_________________________

Moderator's note:

See Message 3146 from Arthur Sheehan for more details
about Barry L.'s life and contributions to AA:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3146

0 -1 0 0
3148 edgarc@aol.com
Sylvia K. Sylvia K. 2/9/2006 4:02:00 AM

Is it true that Sylvia Kaufmann (Keys to the Kingdom) was urged
to return to Chicago and start AA there with Earl Treat after her
visit to Akron and her professed desire to stay with the founders?
According to the story I was told, Sylvia was gorgeous, rich,
divorced, and adoring and the AA ladies of Akron felt it would be
far better for all if she did her good deeds elsewhere.
______________________________

Moderator: see Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age p. 22,
where a different story is told, and for a photo of Earl Treat,
see the second photo on
http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html

0 -1 0 0
3149 Mel Barger
Re: Bill W and Dr. Bob Bill W and Dr. Bob 2/7/2006 4:19:00 PM

From: "Mel Barger" <melb@accesstoledo.com>
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

Hi All,
I went to my first meeting early in October, 1948,
in California and was given a loan copy of the
Big Book right then. The woman who loaned it
to me urged me to read the personal stories first
and then go back to the first part. Bill D.'s story
(AA #3) wasn't in the first edition, and appeared in
the second edition only because Bill W. recorded
him out in Akron and pretty much put together his
story.
I gathered that Bill D. wasn't all that excited about
the book idea in the beginning, but Bill W. realized
that Bill D.'s role was important and should be in
the book.
I think it made sense to have Dr. Bob's story lead
the personal story section. But I've always believed
that Bill's Story is the best and strongest of all and
deserves to lead off the entire book.
Mel Barger
____________________________________

From: James Flynn <jdf10487@yahoo.com>
(jdf10487 at yahoo.com)

The trend of worshiping the first part of the Big
Book (the first 164 pages) might have started
happening around the same time that Bill W. had
to remove stories from the back of the book
because the "recovered' alkie who was the subject
of the story relapsed.

Jim F.

0 -1 0 0
3150 ArtSheehan
RE: 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 2/4/2006 10:07:00 AM

Hi Shakey - this is a long reply

The information you seek is qualified in the source book as “according
to Clarence” or “Clarence believed.” Clarence did much for which he
should be complimented, but he also had another side that is not very
complementary. I’d suggest that Clarence S was to Bill W what Al Gore
is to George Bush today. No matter what the subject, it will be
interpreted in a sinister manner. This is not to say that anyone is
lying, rather it is what bias and antagonism produce.

The unpublished manuscript of Bob P contains the excerpts below which
are revealing. They are, for the most part independently, confirmed by
other authors in “Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers” and “Pass It On.”

Chapter 1 - When AA “Came of AGE”

All was not harmony within the Fellowship, however, which accounted
for a smaller-than-expected attendance at the St. Louis Convention. AA
had grown up in two places simultaneously - Akron and New York, each
with its own co-founder. So it is not surprising that there was a
feeling of separateness - some would say a schism - between the
Akron/Cleveland axis and the New York axis. The Akronites had clung
longer to the Oxford Groups and were more conservative generally.
Bill, the visionary, on the other hand pushed ahead with the writing
and publishing of the Big Book, the establishing of a “Headquarters”
office and, in the late 1940s, a plan for a General Service
Conference.

Dissent against this idea was led by Clarence S of Cleveland. With the
help of Henrietta Seiberling (who now lived in New York), an “Orthodox
Group” was formed to mobilize opposition to the Conference plan among
AA groups nationwide. They took pride in the fact they would have
nothing to do with Bill W, the “Headquarters” office or any form of
organization of AA. Their most vigorous efforts took place after the
first trial conference was held in 1951. The groups and members with
the “Orthodox Group” view chose, not surprisingly, to boycott the St.
Louis gathering where the Conference idea was to be ratified.

Chapter 2 - The General service Board

… in 1946, Bill submitted to the trustees a “Code of Traditions for
General Headquarters,” and followed it up with a barrage of memoranda
supporting its various points. These included ideas for fiscal
policies, and specifically the creation of a sound reserve fund; the
place of The AA Grapevine in the structure; and staff representation
at the Board and committee meetings, with a voice in policy decisions.
A 1947 memo added the most controversial proposal of all, that of
having a General Service Conference to provide a linkage between the
groups and the trustees as well as the headquarters office; and to
bring the trustees into regular contact and direct relationship with
the society.

The Board’s reaction was at first defensive and then outright negative
to Bill’s suggestions. Most of the trustees wanted to keep the status
quo. They were confident of their ability to handle whatever situation
might arise and saw no need to change. Bill, spurred into greater
urgency by Dr Bob’s illness and feeling personal frustration, pressed
harder, resulting in hot and bitter debates. As Nell recounts, “Bill
felt they wanted him to be only a spiritual symbol, confined to a kind
of ivory tower where he couldn’t stir things up.” The trustees
resented Bill’s over-aggressiveness.

Bill himself confesses, “Typically alcoholic, I turned passive
resistance into solid opposition. A serious rift developed between me
and the alcoholic members of the Board, and the situation became worse
and worse. They resented my sledgehammer tactics. As the tempest
increased, so did my blistering memorandums. One of them was an
amazing composition which finished with this astonishing sentence:
‘When I was in law school, the largest book I studied was one on
trusts. I must say, gentlemen, that it was mostly a long and
melancholy account of the malfeasances and misfeasances of boards of
trustees.’ I had written this to the best friends I had in the world,
people who had devoted themselves to AA and to me without stint.
Obviously I was on a dry bender of the worst possible sort.

This sizzling memorandum nearly blew the Foundation apart.” The
nonalcoholic trustees were “dumbfounded,” and the old-timer alcoholic
trustees hardened their opposition to the Conference plan. Four of the
trustees even submitted letters of resignation; they were: LeRoy
Chipman, Leonard Harrison, Bernard Smith and Horace C. Bill wrote each
of them a conciliatory letter of apology, and the resignations were
either withdrawn or simply not accepted at the next Board meeting.

In fact, the only support on the Board for the Conference was from
Bernard Smith. However, as the dispute wore on into 1950, Chairman
Leonard Harrison - even though he did not see the necessity for a
Conference - appointed a trustees’ committee to study the matter with
Bernard Smith as Chairman! Bill characterized this as “a most
magnanimous and generous act on Leonard’s part. Bern Smith had “a
remarkable faculty for persuasion and negotiation.” It took him only
two meetings to convince the committee to “give the Conference a try.”
The full Board voted to go along. (See Chapter 11 for a fuller history
of the Conference.)

Chapter 3 - Groups in the US: How They Began and How They Grew
East Central Region - Akron, Cleveland and Ohio

The members of the new Cleveland group were uncertain what to call
themselves and discussed several suggested names. “None of them seemed
fitting,” remembered Abby C, “so we began to refer to ourselves ‘as
Alcoholics Anonymous” after the title of the Big Book.

(On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong claim that he was,
in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He became perhaps the
most controversial character in AA. He turned against Bill and aroused
the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob of “getting rich”
off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr. Rockefeller - which they
had to disprove with a certified audit of their financial affairs.
Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt against the Conference
idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He criticized Bill and
the “New York office” vitriolically at every opportunity. Bill
steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and in their
correspondence “used soft words to turn away wrath.”

Much later, when they met at the International Convention in Toronto,
they actually spent several hours together, reminiscing. However,
Clarence, a popular speaker on the Steps and the recovery program,
continued to raise hackles wherever he appeared by calling press
conferences in which he was photographed full face with his full name,
holding the Big Book which he claimed he wrote, and identifying
himself as the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He asserted he was not
bound by AA’s Traditions because they were written later - and written
by Bill. Clarence S moved to Florida in retirement, where he remained
extremely active until his death in 1984.

Chapter 9 - General Service Office - The AA Archives

Bill had some underlying reasons for his intense interest in archival
matters, beyond that expressed in AA Comes of Age namely, so that “the
basic facts of AA‘s growth and development never can become
distorted.” By 1955, the facts were already being distorted by
Clarence S and other oldtimers who were attempting to undermine Bill’s
place in AA’s history. So Bill wanted the records available. Also Bill
was visionary; he saw the sweep and scope of the Fellowship he had
helped found and foresaw its significance as a social movement to be
studied by future historians.

Chapter 10 - The AA Grapevine

He [Bill W] obviously loved the Grapevine. He gave it his full
personal support from its very beginning, and whenever he spoke of it
or wrote about it, it was with great enthusiasm and affection. And he
devoted his time and effort unstintingly to helping it. For example,
in 1946, he wrote a six-page single-space typewritten document in the
form of a letter to attorney Royal Shepard about the corporate
structure of the Grapevine and the concepts behind it. … There were
several reasons for this special interest. Bill perceived early that
this was a means for him to communicate directly with the Fellowship
without going through the Board of Trustees - especially when he was
at odds with them on a given issue. And he used the Grapevine for this
purpose frequently and effectively. The Traditions were born and grew
to their present form in a series of articles in the latter 1940s,
beginning with a 1946 piece entitled “Twelve Points to Assure Our
Future.”

In 1950, a time when a majority of the Trustees seemed opposed to the
idea, Bill and Dr Bob wrote in the Grapevine suggesting that the AA
membership as a whole should take over, through a General Service
Conference …

Chapter 11 - The General Service Conferences

Never did the co-founder and de facto leader of a social movement ever
try so early and so fiercely to relinquish his power and authority as
did Bill W. Incredibly, only twelve years after the birth of
Alcoholics Anonymous, nine years after the formation of the Alcoholic
Foundation and eight years after the Big Book was published, Bill
wrote the first of several controversial and even explosive memos
proposing a General Service Conference. The story of his battle with
the trustees over the issue for the next three years is related in
Chapter 2 on the General Service Board. But finally in 1950, the
trustees voted reluctantly to “give the Conference a try.”

Chapter 12 - The Big Book and Other AA Literature

Bill said that more than 100 titles were considered for the book. The
title that appeared on the Multilithed copies was “Alcoholics
Anonymous.” The first documented use of the name is in a letter from
Bill to Willard Richardson dated July 15, 1938, in which he uses it to
refer to the movement. Among the other possible titles considered for
the book were: “One Hundred Men,” “The Empty Glass,” “The Dry Way,”
“The Dry Life,” and “The Way Out.”

The choices quickly boiled down to “The Way Out,” favored by most in
Akron, and “Alcoholics Anonymous,” favored by most in New York. Bill
asked Fitz M, who lived near Washington, DC, to check both titles
through the library of congress. Fitz wired back to the effect that
the Library of Congress had 25 books entitled “The Way Out,” 12
entitled “The Way,” and none called “Alcoholics Anonymous.” That
settled the matter. The title of the book quickly became the name of
the Fellowship as well. Clarence S later called himself the founder of
Alcoholics Anonymous, basing his claim on his being the first to use
the name for a group. Which he probably was. But the fact is, the book
Alcoholics Anonymous was already off the press, and the name had been
used a year earlier to refer to the Fellowship as a whole.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Shakey1aa@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:43 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Cc: hvyver@kvalley.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles

My sponsor told me about AA having a "statement of principles" in
1950. He tells me they originally came out in 1948 but that no proof
is obtainable from New York. Does anyone know about this?

The statement of principles of 1948 is in Appendix G in Mitch K's book
"How it Worked."

Does anyone know why these were replaced by the 1950 statement of
principles. Do they give General Service more power?

Why does Royal S., the attorney who incorporated the Grapevine, on pg
199 say the trustees suppressed the statement of 1948?

t/y Shakey Mike G.

Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

0 -1 0 0
3151 Archie Bunkers
God as we understand Him God as we understand Him 2/8/2006 12:38:00 AM

This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf

"William James, stripped of verbiage, says that
we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM."

Is William James the source of the Big Book
phrase "God as we understand him"??

Archie B.

________________________________

From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana)

The passage which Archie quotes is from one
of the four pamphlets we possess which
were written by the early AA people in Akron.
They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
"Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
"A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled
"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous.

In the passage in question, which says "William
James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should
believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM,"
it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron
believed, not that William James wrote that line,
but instead were agreeing that adding "as we
understand Him" to the references to God in the
twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief
that people of different personality types needed
different types of spirituality and different kinds
of conceptions of God.

"God as we understand Him" was not a quote
from James however, as they give it in this
pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we
understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what
James was saying in the long quotation which they
give from him, where James says "Religion shall
mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of
individual men in their solitude, so far as they
apprehend themselves to stand in relation to
whatever they may consider the divine."

The early Akron AA people were clearly saying
in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the
teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and
freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who
followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great
Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and
Buddhists, could all join together in following the
twelve steps and could understand why following
these spiritual guides to action could lead us to
the higher spiritual life.

Here is that particular section of the pamphlet,
which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that
section, so the group can read in context what
the early Akron AA people believed:
_____________________________________

"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous"

Part IV

BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the
nebulous side, we are offered more concrete
guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality.
It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even
though it seems so at first.

Let's examine what some of the fine minds of
history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators --
have to say about religion. Note that none of them,
with the exception of St. James, is a professional
religionist.

"Religion is the worship of higher powers from a
sense of need." --Allan Menzies.

"Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and
experiences of individual men in their solitude, so
far as they apprehend themselves to stand in
relation to whatever they may consider the divine."
-- William James.

"Religion is the recognition of all our duties as
divine commands."--Immanual Kant.

"Religion is that part of human experience in
which man feels himself in relation with powers
of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and
makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba.

"Pure religion and undefiled before our God and
Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows
in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted
from the world."--The General Epistle of James,
1:27.

One cannot but be impressed with the similarity
of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps.

The Menzies definition is nothing more than a
condensed version of the first three steps wherein
we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power
greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our
wills and lives over to that Power.

William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we
should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM.

Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives
over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven,
wherein we are admonished to give our lives a
thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and
restitutions are without question divine commands.

James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step,
where we make use of our newly found powers.

And all we need to do in the St. James passage is
to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less
and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a
matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we
were very definitely fatherless and widows.

The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly.
There is not an ethical religion in the world today
that does not teach to a great extent the principles
of Love, Charity and Good Will.

The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who
will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the
great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social
justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one
of our finest examples of helping one another. When
a member of the family gets into trouble of any
kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally
around with advice, admonition, and even financial
assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason
there are not more Jewish members of AA. The
family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic
problem.

Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the
poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler,
and conduct themselves with personal dignity.

Consider the eight-part program laid down in
Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right
action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness
and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy,
as exemplified by these eight points, could be
literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or
addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal
love and welfare of others rather than
considerations of self are basic to Buddhism.

The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit.
Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility
and serenity.

St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order."
We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered.

0 -1 0 0
3152 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/8/2006 9:56:00 AM

The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946 by
Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age they
thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger alcoholic. They
started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of age. The
group had several female members. They felt they could deal with members who
were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They had
parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings.
Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group members,
I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group
got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples convention.Most
of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each other and
were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety.
The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M. at
4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania.
Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think
there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area.
Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike G.


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0 -1 0 0
3153 Tom Hickcox
Re: Re: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/11/2006 5:51:00 PM

At 02:47 2/7/2006 , mertonmm3 wrote:

> >Hi Art,
>
>In GSO Archives the early members were given 1 page questioneers to
>fill out which included self reported sobriety date, occupation, ect.
>I specifically recall one that Florence presumably submitted. Post 64
>on this site (by this sites founder) places Florence's date of entry
>at March, 1937. This sound accurate but I'm missing my transcript of
>this. A specific inquiry to NY regarding this questioneer will verify
>the accuracy or inaccuracy as to the date if GSO responds. It would be
>easiest to obtain from the microfische.
>
>As you know Florence made contact with AA through her non-alcoholic
>husband who was a friend and buisness associate of Bill's.
>
>All the best,
>-merton

The West Baltimore Group's biographies of the authors of stories in the
original manuscript and first three editions, comprised by Nancy O, I believe,

<http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Authors.htm>

has March 1937 as Florence R's dos, confirming the above. However, it is
not a primary source and confirmation via the questionnaire on file at GSO
would certainly be a better source.

I come up against the "God said it. I believe it. That settles it,"
argument frequently. It is along the lines of, "My sponsor conducts Big
Book studies all over the country. He has brought the Big Book alive for
hundreds of people making their lives better. How can you say he is
wrong?" This is an argument from authority, and I can see its fallacies
but we deal with so much subjective and emotional reasoning, facts from
primary sources are often ridiculed and rejected. How does one deal with this?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge


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0 -1 0 0
3154 JOHN e REID
Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/11/2006 7:56:00 PM

I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession on
Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where
this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and
interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide
me with an electronic copy.

Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and
walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot,
having "done" my first 4 & 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3
months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the
1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct & personal guidance from Wesley
Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions
Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting
against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA
jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out.

Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a
shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and
mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit
from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings
list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA
material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to
me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which
included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill
Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also
suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt & pepper shaker, so as I
would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I
will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need
Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual
hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental)
hopelessness of the disease.

Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold
Disease!!!!
Kind Regards, John R

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0 -1 0 0
3155 Mel Barger
Re: First lesbian or gay AA member? First lesbian or gay AA member? 2/11/2006 9:31:00 PM

Hi All,
I interviewed Barry L. by telephone and obtained the story about the
homosexual black man who had contacted Barry about coming into AA. This is
how it became included in "Pass It On." I think this happened in 1945. I
don't recall any mention of how the man fared after being introduced to the
fellowship.
I had met Barry at G.S.O. in New York and considered him a good friend.
We never discussed his being gay, but I do recall expressing condolences
when his partner died. I also attended Marty Mann's memorial services at
St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in New York City with Barry and a lesbian
member who knew Marty. The service was conducted by the minister of the
church and Yvelin G., who was an ordained Episcopal minister along with
being Marty's close associate for many years at the National Council on
Alcoholism. This service was about two months after Marty's passing. I had
interviewed Marty earlier that year at her home in Easton, CT, where she
also introduced me to her longtime partner, Priscilla Peck. Priscilla was
then suffering from Alzheimer's but Marty was still taking care of her, and
I had the feeling that they were a very devoted couple. I learned more
about their relationship in the Browns' book and was also happy to hear that
Priscilla was well taken care of after Marty died.
It appeared to me that Lois W.'s best friends in the fellowship were
Barry and Nell Wing (though Nell wasn't an alcoholic). Barry accompanied
Lois on out-of-town speaking engagements and was otherwise very attentive to
her. I believed that Barry was probably in her will, as was Nell, but he
predeceased Lois.
I was also familiar with Barry's efforts to obtain extra compensation for
his work on "Living Sober." Lois reportedly endorsed this effort. I didn't
feel he had any grounds for receiving additional pay, as he had taken on the
project on a work-for-hire basis with no royalties specified. He used Bill
W.'s royalties as a precedent, but I'm sure Bill negotiated the royalty
agreement up front when he wrote "The Twelve and Twelve" plus "AA Comes of
Age." His Big Book royalties were agreed upon earlier. I think Barry died
before this matter was finally settled.
Mel Barger

0 -1 0 0
3156 Penny
Experience, strength, and hope Experience, strength, and hope 2/12/2006 3:14:00 AM

Where did the phrase share our experience, strength
and hope come from?

In love and sobriety
Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00
Roanoke Virginia

Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is
greater than the fear of letting go!
Never assume some one knows you love them,
take the time to tell them.

0 -1 0 0
3157 ArtSheehan
RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/12/2006 9:29:00 AM

I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should be a factor as
opposed to just when someone might have first showed up. Bill and Bob
had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and Eddie R) prior to
Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the legendary "Lil."

Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R for primacy and my
vote goes to Florence.

Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated Clarence S (the
acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is not recalled in
Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on interviews with
Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits other than being
mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along with "Lil."

Cheers
Arthur

__________________________________

Message 3142 from:
Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers]
First woman was Jane S., not Florence

Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then
it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who
was the first woman working the program of what
became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's
sobriety?"

0 -1 0 0
3158 hesofine2day
"burning desire" "burning desire" 2/6/2006 4:47:00 PM

I have an idea that many of the expressions and
conventions in AA these days have seeped in from
NA and/or treatment centers.

Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have
a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting?

Also where did the expression "do the next right
thing" come from?

And finally saying "It works if you work it" after
the Lord's prayer.
________________________________

From the moderator:

Raymond I., who shows up in my book about
old time AA in northern Indiana
(see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html)
frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with
a burning desire." He says he didn't make up
this phrase, but that it was something that other
people also said back in the old days.

"Old time" is relative.

Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was
trained by the old-time black AA members who came
into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk
treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that
everybody chants at the end of their meetings.

So I think that in the form "you must want it with
a burning desire," the words go back to a period
before all the psychobabble and high school
cheerleading type stuff.

The great heyday of the treatment centers funded
by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to
the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior
to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from
that source.

But can anybody trace "you must want it with a
burning desire" back before the 1970's?

"Modern AA" and "old time AA" are both relative
terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very
different from 1938, 1939 is very different from
1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or
1949. The 1960's were very different from the
1950's. AA was going through continuous change
and development during that whole period. But
it was working effectively and continuing to
grow and expand at an enormous rate.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
3159 sbanker914@aol.com
Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker 2/5/2006 7:16:00 AM

Dear Art,

I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list
very much.

Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a
purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone). It
turned
out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of
Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of the
tape
very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged
when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr.
Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I
remember her
telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had
filled up with needy women in early recovery.

I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another
recovering woman.

I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude.

Susan Banker
NYC




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0 -1 0 0
3160 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/13/2006 7:45:00 AM

If no one else can find a hard copy, mine went with my other research
materials to the Kirk Collection at Brown University. I trust it could
be easily available: even though they have not yet sorted all my
materials, the printed one's are indexed as to location (I think). If
interested, contact David_Lewis@brown.edu or perhaps better,
Tovah-Reis@brown.edu

ernie k.

0 -1 0 0
3161 Mitchell K.
RE: 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 1948 and 1950 Statement of Principles 2/13/2006 8:37:00 AM

I guess that when a second printing is done of How It
Worked I'll have o include all of Royal Shepard's
letters and all of Henrietta Seiberling's letters
relating to both Bill and the Statement of 1948.

I prefer using actual documentation from the period in
question rather than sanitized and committee reviewed
official literature written and published years beyond
the actual events. Clarence was merely a part of the
Orthodox Group/Movement and not the founding member.
The documentation and not the apologists bear that
out.

--- ArtSheehan <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:

> Hi Shakey - this is a long reply
>
> The information you seek is qualified in the source
> book as “according
> to Clarence” or “Clarence believed.” Clarence did
> much for which he
> should be complimented, but he also had another side
> that is not very
> complementary. I’d suggest that Clarence S was to
> Bill W what Al Gore
> is to George Bush today. No matter what the subject,
> it will be
> interpreted in a sinister manner. This is not to say
> that anyone is
> lying, rather it is what bias and antagonism
> produce.
>
> The unpublished manuscript of Bob P contains the
> excerpts below which
> are revealing. They are, for the most part
> independently, confirmed by
> other authors in “Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers” and
> “Pass It On.”
>
> Chapter 1 - When AA “Came of AGE”
>
> All was not harmony within the Fellowship, however,
> which accounted
> for a smaller-than-expected attendance at the St.
> Louis Convention. AA
> had grown up in two places simultaneously - Akron
> and New York, each
> with its own co-founder. So it is not surprising
> that there was a
> feeling of separateness - some would say a schism -
> between the
> Akron/Cleveland axis and the New York axis. The
> Akronites had clung
> longer to the Oxford Groups and were more
> conservative generally.
> Bill, the visionary, on the other hand pushed ahead
> with the writing
> and publishing of the Big Book, the establishing of
> a “Headquarters”
> office and, in the late 1940s, a plan for a General
> Service
> Conference.
>
> Dissent against this idea was led by Clarence S of
> Cleveland. With the
> help of Henrietta Seiberling (who now lived in New
> York), an “Orthodox
> Group” was formed to mobilize opposition to the
> Conference plan among
> AA groups nationwide. They took pride in the fact
> they would have
> nothing to do with Bill W, the “Headquarters” office
> or any form of
> organization of AA. Their most vigorous efforts took
> place after the
> first trial conference was held in 1951. The groups
> and members with
> the “Orthodox Group” view chose, not surprisingly,
> to boycott the St.
> Louis gathering where the Conference idea was to be
> ratified.
>
> Chapter 2 - The General service Board
>
> … in 1946, Bill submitted to the trustees a “Code of
> Traditions for
> General Headquarters,” and followed it up with a
> barrage of memoranda
> supporting its various points. These included ideas
> for fiscal
> policies, and specifically the creation of a sound
> reserve fund; the
> place of The AA Grapevine in the structure; and
> staff representation
> at the Board and committee meetings, with a voice in
> policy decisions.
> A 1947 memo added the most controversial proposal of
> all, that of
> having a General Service Conference to provide a
> linkage between the
> groups and the trustees as well as the headquarters
> office; and to
> bring the trustees into regular contact and direct
> relationship with
> the society.
>
> The Board’s reaction was at first defensive and then
> outright negative
> to Bill’s suggestions. Most of the trustees wanted
> to keep the status
> quo. They were confident of their ability to handle
> whatever situation
> might arise and saw no need to change. Bill, spurred
> into greater
> urgency by Dr Bob’s illness and feeling personal
> frustration, pressed
> harder, resulting in hot and bitter debates. As Nell
> recounts, “Bill
> felt they wanted him to be only a spiritual symbol,
> confined to a kind
> of ivory tower where he couldn’t stir things up.”
> The trustees
> resented Bill’s over-aggressiveness.
>
> Bill himself confesses, “Typically alcoholic, I
> turned passive
> resistance into solid opposition. A serious rift
> developed between me
> and the alcoholic members of the Board, and the
> situation became worse
> and worse. They resented my sledgehammer tactics. As
> the tempest
> increased, so did my blistering memorandums. One of
> them was an
> amazing composition which finished with this
> astonishing sentence:
> ‘When I was in law school, the largest book I
> studied was one on
> trusts. I must say, gentlemen, that it was mostly a
> long and
> melancholy account of the malfeasances and
> misfeasances of boards of
> trustees.’ I had written this to the best friends I
> had in the world,
> people who had devoted themselves to AA and to me
> without stint.
> Obviously I was on a dry bender of the worst
> possible sort.
>
> This sizzling memorandum nearly blew the Foundation
> apart.” The
> nonalcoholic trustees were “dumbfounded,” and the
> old-timer alcoholic
> trustees hardened their opposition to the Conference
> plan. Four of the
> trustees even submitted letters of resignation; they
> were: LeRoy
> Chipman, Leonard Harrison, Bernard Smith and Horace
> C. Bill wrote each
> of them a conciliatory letter of apology, and the
> resignations were
> either withdrawn or simply not accepted at the next
> Board meeting.
>
> In fact, the only support on the Board for the
> Conference was from
> Bernard Smith. However, as the dispute wore on into
> 1950, Chairman
> Leonard Harrison - even though he did not see the
> necessity for a
> Conference - appointed a trustees’ committee to
> study the matter with
> Bernard Smith as Chairman! Bill characterized this
> as “a most
> magnanimous and generous act on Leonard’s part. Bern
> Smith had “a
> remarkable faculty for persuasion and negotiation.”
> It took him only
> two meetings to convince the committee to “give the
> Conference a try.”
> The full Board voted to go along. (See Chapter 11
> for a fuller history
> of the Conference.)
>
> Chapter 3 - Groups in the US: How They Began and How
> They Grew
> East Central Region - Akron, Cleveland and Ohio
>
> The members of the new Cleveland group were
> uncertain what to call
> themselves and discussed several suggested names.
> “None of them seemed
> fitting,” remembered Abby C, “so we began to refer
> to ourselves ‘as
> Alcoholics Anonymous” after the title of the Big
> Book.
>
> (On this tenuous fact Clarence S based a lifelong
> claim that he was,
> in reality, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. He
> became perhaps the
> most controversial character in AA. He turned
> against Bill and aroused
> the Cleveland contingent to accuse Bill and Dr Bob
> of “getting rich”
> off the Big Book and the generosity of Mr.
> Rockefeller - which they
> had to disprove with a certified audit of their
> financial affairs.
> Clarence tried to organize a nationwide revolt
> against the Conference
> idea and threatened, unsuccessfully, to secede. He
> criticized Bill and
> the “New York office” vitriolically at every
> opportunity. Bill
> steadfastly refused to hold a grudge against him and
> in
=== message truncated ===

0 -1 0 0
3162 James Flynn
Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/13/2006 10:21:00 AM

The book Under The Influence By Dr. James Milam explains in great detail the
benifits of vitamin B-complex for newly recovering alcoholics. I have never seen
anything written on the subject by Bill W. but it is widely known that he was an
advocate of Niacin which is a B-vitamin.

Jim F.


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and
used cars.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3163 t
Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/13/2006 1:06:00 PM

perhaps these Grapevine articles will yield some answers...
Philadelphia seems to have started in Jan 46 - their follow up article indicates
hearing from/about several earlier Young People's groups though.
San Diego Young Men's group is reported to have begun in Oct 46 -that 1948
article
also mentions a Young Women's group also there, but does not date its beginning.


Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote:
> The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946 by
> Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age they
> thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger alcoholic. They
> started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of age. The
> group had several female members. They felt they could deal with members who
> were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They had
> parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings.
> Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group members,
> I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group
> got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples
convention.Most
> of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each other and
> were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety.
> The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M. at
> 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania.
> Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think
> there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area.
> Yours in Service,
> Shakey Mike G.
>

-----------------------------
© Grapevine, November 1946
What Do You Think About Youth Group In Philadelphia?
From Philadelphia
A group of A.A.s has been formed at Philadelphia for men and women, 35 years of
age
and under. This group was formed in January, 1946, with just six members, only
three
of whom had been dry the four months required for voting membership. This
membership
has since been expanded to about thirty, nearly half of whom have been dry over
four
months.
We were under the impression when we began this group that we were trailblazers
in
the field, but reports from some of our visiting A.A.s have indicated that it
has
been tried before, although with very little success. We are not seeking pioneer
credit in writing this letter, but rather, constructive criticism. We hope to
hear
from other groups throughout the country, giving us the benefit of your
experience
with young people and with such organizations as ours if they have been
attempted.
We were slow in getting started with our group and we are still proceeding with
caution since it is apparent that our abilities lie more in the realm of
prevention
than in cure. Most young people have not been hurt badly enough or often enough,
so
they think, to feel that they are in any need of what we in A.A. have to offer.
It is
feared that for this reason we will experience more than a normal number of
relapses,
and that our progress will of necessity be slow. However, many of our later
members
have admitted that had it not been for this young group they would not have
stuck to
AA. So, we are doing some good.
Let's hear from other groups. We would like your suggestions, advice, criticism
and
opinions on what we are trying to do.—B.D.Mc.

--------------------------------
© Grapevine, May 1948
Young Men Solve Meeting Problems
from San Diego, Calif.

In the January issue of The A.A. Grapevine there is a letter from Florence S.
of
Forest Hills, N.Y., asking for suggestions for the younger ages who need A.A.
In San Diego, this problem has been met by the formation of the Young Women's
Group
(under 35), and the Young Men's Group (under 40). These groups have been very
successful and seem to have tapped an unending source of new A.A.s.
The young men seemed to have the idea, "Hell, if I was as old as John Doe, I'd
quit
drinking, too." It was rather disheartening to listen to someone tell of 20
years of
hard drinking, and realize that we had five or ten years to go before we could
even
approximate the same low bottom. These "old goats" gave us the idea we had to
hit
several cures, try a few types of "goof balls," and have at least two or more
trips
to psychopathic wards, before we were ready for A.A. It gave us the feeling we
couldn't make the Program because we hadn't been knocked around enough.
The first accomplishment noted by the Young Men's Group soon became its
strongest
selling point: It had automatically raised the level for the young man's turning
point.
The older person's problems are greatly different from ours. There was no
education
on things alcoholic when they were our age, therefore they had to go down until
their
hand was forced. We have been fortunate in having the subject discussed in
almost
each magazine we read these days. Their immediate families are usually better
established so far as understanding goes, because they have been married for a
much
longer period. The average young man is just beginning his family life and it is
often harder to get his wife to go along in the new way of life. The young wife
is
more apt to resent the husband's attendance at closed meetings.
The vast majority of our members are combat veterans with some horrible
memories in
their minds. The older members have the same memories but time does do a lot to
erase
the strength of such thoughts. Only a few of us have seen prohibition days, but
a lot
of us have put away a surprising amount of GI alcohol, de-icer fluid (that was
what
we distilled in the Air Corps, and it wasn't too bad then), saki, and other
drinks
that are native to Hawaii, China, the Philippines and other Pacific Islands.
The younger man has an inherent cockiness that gives him a bit of trouble once
in a
while. There are quite a few problems that confront the young man of today;
problems
that the "old goats" must have had but have now forgotten. These problems and
many
others, we believe, can best be solved by a Young Men's Group.
The first meeting of the Young Men's Group was held October 31, 1946, with six
young
men and 20 of the older men in attendance. The second meeting saw 15 young
fellows
and 23 "old goats" attending. The "old goats" stayed with us for three months,
by
which time we had such a large attendance it was necessary to form a new
meeting.
Left on our own, we changed to roundtable type meetings and outlawed any
applause for
the speakers. The newer men soon found it was quite easy to speak since it was
no
longer necessary to stand in front of an audience. Also, some of the quieter men
found it easy to question the speaker since it wasn't necessary to address the
chair.
Questioning and general discussions led to deeper explanations, better
understanding
and, generally speaking, better working of the A.A. Program. The younger fellows
strike right at the heart of any problem placed before them, and Heaven help the
person who isn't serious when he offers a problem or question for discussion and
possible solution. We let our hair down in no uncertain manner with no holds
barred.
There are times when we have asked for help from the older members because of
their
greater experience in handling some particular problem.
On the whole, our group has been a great success. Some of the boys have
naturally
dropped by the wayside, but most of these have re-enlisted in A.A. and are now
doing
a splendid job. We have had quite a few drop out in favor of meetings nearer
their
homes, but this is a natural separation and we feel that our group has played a
huge
part in selling them on this new way of life. The temporary win and lose columns
of
A.A. will show our group with an exceptionally high percentage in the win
section.
For almost 17 months, our active member list has averaged about 50 men and the
average meeting will find around 30 members attending. Holidays have not
affected our
attendance. Rather, it has been found that the men are glad that their meeting
will
be held on the eve of a big holiday.
The third Thursday of each month we open our meeting to the oldtimers and they
are
very welcome guests. They do not speak unless the leader asks for any word they
may
have, or unless one feels he may have a message of special benefit for the
group. All
business discussion of any sort, clubs, parties or what have you, must be left
until
the A.A. meeting has closed for the evening. The only ironclad rule that is
never
excepted: NO WOMEN.
We "charter members" are very proud of our group and its work, and certainly
hope it
will continue to grow long after we have passed on into the category of "old
goats."—
W.B.A.

--------------------------------

© Grapevine, July 1950
Bridging the Age Gap

TODAY, more than ever, people are becoming aware and taking greater concern
with the
seriousness of our major public health problems. Alcoholism, our fourth largest
Public Health Problem, has more increasingly been brought before the public
mind.
Many of the taboos and myths formerly attached to alcoholism are gradually being
supplanted with realistic thinking and serious attempts toward prevention and
the
arresting of alcoholism in its earlier stages.
One of the most important myths that has been shattered is that young people,
who
are still in their twenties and thirties cannot be suffering from this disease.
The
stories of numerous alcoholics, now members of Alcoholics Anonymous, has proven
that
in a large number of cases symptoms of this disease showed quite early in the
period
of active drinking. The pattern of "Blackouts," "Excusing a drink," "Becoming
anti-social" and having "Morning drinks" had become strongly entrenched while
the
alcoholic was still a college student or in that age bracket. More, however,
started
to have difficulties such as "Solitary Drinking" and "Benders" quite early in
their
business careers and resulted in the loss of jobs, family, finances and other
assets.
Alcoholics Anonymous has taken a realistic look at the problem of alcoholism in
relation to young people. In the last three or four years, groups whose specific
aim
is to reach the younger alcoholic have mushroomed throughout the country. In New
York
City alone, the Young Peoples Group better known as the "Thirty-Five and Under
Group"
has grown from a mere handful in 1947 to its present membership of some 75 to
100
alcoholics ranging in age from the twenties through 35. This group augments the
older
and more established groups and encourages its members to attend the meetings of
older-age groups, so as to foster a more rounded and stabilized type of thinking
about alcoholism and the therapy of AA.
Every member of Alcoholics Anonymous learns, after attendance of the first few
group
meetings, that the Twelfth Suggested Step is a most important one in the
prolonging
of his or her sobriety. It is not easy for a young person in his early twenties
or
thirties to be of assistance to the sick alcoholic who has been drinking 20 or
30
years and many times leads to dangerous comparisons by the younger person. How
much
more useful this younger member can be when using his or her efforts in
'twelfth-stepping' a person of a comparative age level. Members of this age
group are
facing the many sided problems of living at relatively the same time and it is
encouraging to know that other young people are hurdling similar difficulties
with
success. Most important is the comfortable feeling which comes of being able to
discuss problems such as Marriage, resumption of studies, the inherent
tendencies of
alcoholism, its prognosis in relation to certain family situations and other
factors
which might otherwise endanger sobriety. It is important because of the feeling
of
mutuality and the lack of any taint of "Preaching," "Parental- Counseling," or
"Scholastic Pedanticism."
— J.B., Brooklyn, N.Y.

--------------------------------

© Grapevine, June 1958
YOUTH GROUP DISBANDS

THE YOUNG PEOPLE'S GROUP of Boston, after a great deal of deliberation, has
decided
to disband.
Ten years ago when the group was formed, there was a definite need for a Young
People's Group. Today, young people are well represented in most groups. We feel
that
there is no need for a specialized group. The group is happy to report that most
of
its original members are active in other groups.
It is encouraging to know that young people can enjoy happy productive sobriety
such
as these original members are experiencing.
Roy L., Winthrop, Mass.

--------------------------------

© Grapevine, September 1961
A Report on YOUTH GROUPS

I ATTENDED the Fourth International Conference of Young People in AA in
Milwaukee
this year, and interviewed everybody present I could pin down. About 250 AAs,
Al-Anon
members and guests attended the three-day meeting in Milwaukee.
AAs and Al-Anons of all ages from the Milwaukee-Chicago area mingled at the
meetings
with young AAs from as far West as Vancouver, British Columbia, and San
Francisco,
California; from as far East as New York. Three Australian members, in their
thirties, sent their greetings and talks on tape.
How young are these AAs, really? Among forty AAs who participated as speakers
or on
the host planning committee the average age is thirty four —ranging from
twenty-two
to fifty-two. The average length of continuous sobriety is four years and nine
months. When they first came to AA, two of these forty AAs were in their teens;
twenty-two were in their twenties and fourteen in their thirties.
Speaker after speaker told of dozens of arrests in their teen years. One girl
had an
eight-year prison record behind her when she sobered up eight years ago, aged
thirty-four. When one thirty-one-year-old, sober eight years, said from the
platform,
"I had my seventeenth conviction on my seventeenth birthday," no one in the
audience
seemed particularly impressed.
Many had started drinking at twelve, thirteen and fourteen. One said, "I was an
alcoholic at thirteen, on skid row at fifteen." Another declared, "I know I was
an
alky at sixteen." One girl said, "I was on the streets at seventeen, and knew
then I
was an alcoholic."
Commitment to mental hospitals in their early twenties seemed commonplace among
these AAs. There were enough skid row alumni to form a group of their own.
Another
could have been made up among the former reformatory students. Warden John C.
Burke
of Wisconsin State Prison, Waupun, greeted a number of his former charges at the
conference, including the chairman of the host planning committee, who
introduced the
Warden, with a straight face, as "my former landlord." The prison official told
one
of the sessions that probably eighty per cent of the young convicts in his
institution have a drinking problem.
Several speakers told of lying about their ages to get into armed services:
"because
in uniform I would have no trouble buying drinks." There were frequent stories
of
broken youthful marriages: "I thought it would settle me down."
So it wasn't surprising to hear speakers say—in private conversations —they
felt
puzzled upon first coming to AA to hear older members say, "You're too young to
be an
alcoholic." Several reported being advised to "go out and do some more drinking.
You're not old enough for AA."
As one speaker put it: "I was leaving one of my first meetings when I overheard
an
older member remark, 'I've spilled more booze on my vest than that young punk
has
drunk.' Probably he had," continued the thirty-one-year-old good-humoredly, "but
it
was the alcohol I had drunk, not the liquor he had spilled, which made my life
unmanageable."
A twenty-eight-year-old, in AA three years now, demonstrated the seriousness of
his
alcoholism this way: "My drunken escapades made the papers so often that my
first
wife began to speak of it as my 'column.' Then they began not printing it,
because my
booze troubles just weren't news in our town any more."
He laughed when he recalled the "deep freeze" older members gave him his first
year.
He recalled one older man who had said, "Never had the DTs? Sonny, go drink
another
ten years. You're no alky."
The youngster said seriously: "Once the older fellows started laughing when I
told
them about a marriage problem I had. So, since they assured me I couldn't be an
alcoholic at my age, I decided I must be a psycho. I kept seeing a psychiatrist,
and
drinking, for a whole year. Later I learned it isn't how long you have drunk, or
how
much, but what alcohol has done to your life that makes you eligible for AA."
Often these young speakers told of being tolerated within groups of older
members,
but never being given any AA jobs to do. "Even now," said a fellow in his early
thirties, sober over three years, "when I'm sitting in the clubhouse and a
Twelfth
Step call comes in, they say I'm too young to go on it."
This lack of acceptance has also taken other forms. When a young people's group
was
formed in one city, an AA clubhouse used by several other groups refused to let
the
young people meet in one of its rooms, one young "founder" reported. "But then,"
added the member with a youthful grin, "the clubhouse found it needed money
badly, so
they let us rent space after all. And lots of them come to our meetings now." In
fact, one fifty-five-year-old slipper attributes his re-grasp of sobriety to
this
"infant" group.
Such stories were told in private conversation, not in talks from the platform.
And
only in one of the forty people I talked to did I find anything like anger about
such
treatment. In that one case, the stinging memory seems a goad that spurs this
young
fellow into ferocious energy for twelfth-stepping other young guys.
These experiences and reactions are by no means universal among younger AA
members
in all localities, but they had a direct effect on a number of those I talked to
in
Milwaukee. Younger members began banding together in their own groups. In some
places, naturally enough, young AA groups were started with high hopes and
flood-tide
energy, but little stable or wise leadership. Groups turned into social clubs,
or
other Traditions were broken, and groups died. Thus, members of large, healthy
young
people's groups point out that in some areas the youngsters may miss the
encouragement and interest of older, wiser members, and most attend other AA
meetings, where they find "immediate identification with other young
alcoholics," as
one man put it.
"We find activity," said a thirty-eight-year-old who has been sober : nine
years.
"We are made members of the group steering committees, we twelfth-step lots of
other
younger people, and when any of us goes to speak at another group, six or eight
carloads of us go along."
"Older people always did scare me," one girl admitted. "I guess we just rebel
more
at our age, even in AA groups. In the younger groups, though, there is no
temptation
to compare my drinking with that of the fellows who reminisce about bathtub gin
or
speakeasies."
Others took a different tack. "My young group helps me with current problems,"
one
fellow said. "As a young guy I have lots of domestic, professional and other
personal
problems. Choosing a career and getting started in it, or starting a family, are
not
problems most older members are now facing. So we younger ones can face them
together
and help one another. That's in addition to helping each other stay sober, which
must
come first always, of course."
(In many ways, this was truly more a "family" convention than other regional AA
conventions I have attended. Many pretty, young, nonalcoholic wives, active in
local
family Al-Anon groups, helped at every stage in the planning, served as
hostesses and
guides, and talked at both AA and their own meetings. One family present had
four
Alateen members along. Its fifteen-year-old had painted the enormous, handsome
blue-and-white "Fourth International Conference, Young People in AA" banner
which
decorated the main AA meeting hall for the Milwaukee sessions.)
If any quality besides enthusiasm and love seemed a hallmark of the brand of AA
at
the Milwaukee get together, it was seriousness. Healthy, honest self-criticism,
frank
and open self-inventory and wide varieties of opinion, were evident constantly.
A thirty-seven-year-old, sober six years, summed up the value of young people's
groups this way: "We show younger alcoholics that they are not different just
because
they are young. We show others that you can be young, and alcoholic, yet still
be
sober and happy in AA. Booze doesn't respect youth any more than it does age."
The Milwaukee Conference helped prove those facts in a big way and must have
carried
the message to many other young alcoholics, or their friends. Both of
Milwaukee's big
daily newspapers ran many stories about "Young People in AA."
Local ministers and hotel officials also helped, as did many older AA members
of the
Chicago-Milwaukee area. A Milwaukee clubhouse cooperated and so did the
secretary of
the Milwaukee Central Office. Both Illinois delegates to the Eleventh General
Service
Conference supported the youth conference with their presence.
Of the thirty-nine AA speakers on the program, only three talked specifically
about
young people's groups, or the Young People's Conference idea. Others told their
own
stories, as AAs do everywhere, or addressed themselves to the three theme words
of
the Conference: Gratitude, Obedience and Devotion.
But do the supporters of these Canadian-American conferences of young people in
AA
really advocate the formation of more groups designated especially for young
people?
As might be expected among any collection of good AAs, opinions differ, and
each
seems to have a valid foundation in its holder's own individual experience.
A pamphlet distributed at the Milwaukee sessions is entitled "Facts, Aims,
Purposes
of Young People's Groups in AA in the United States and Canada." It declares:
"...there is a great need for at least one young people's group in every city so
the
young coming into AA can get together once a week and discuss their problems
with
other young people of their own age."
Some young members, as we have seen, claim that such groups made it possible
for
them to receive and maintain a sobriety they found impossible in other groups.
Most
of them insist, though, that it is necessary for any young AA to attend other
meetings in addition to those for young people.
Other speakers in Milwaukee denied any intention to encourage the formation of
special groups. "We just want to encourage the acceptance of young people in any
AA
groups. We do not favor any kind of AA segregation, by age or anything else. We
do
not seek to divide AA, or set up any separate organization. We just want to add
an
extra bond of fellowship to the cement of AA."
Three young members in a New England state—who were not at the Milwaukee
Convention—say they have found no need for special young people's groups.
One twenty-three-year-old mother of two came to AA when she was eighteen. "I
used to
window-shop the fancy stores on Fifth Avenue, in New York, dead drunk, dressed
in
sloppy blue jeans and a filthy sweat shirt with university letters on it, so
people
would think I was a college kid! AA is not for kids; it forces us to mature and
I
didn't want to grow up. So I slipped around for two years before I really got
sober.
It happened in a regular group."
Her husband was in trouble because of drinking at fifteen, swore off at
eighteen
because of "a car-theft charge." Shaking his head wonderingly, he says, "I
thought I
was too young to be an alcoholic!" He sobered up in a group full of older
members.
His buddy's first drinks were morning ones. "I reached under the bed for the
jug
before I got up, in a summer work camp," he said. "I was fifteen years old." Ten
years later he came to AA and "slipped around at first. I didn't see any room in
this
outfit for a young man to 'get ahead' —that is, get to be group secretary!" He
laughs
at that now. At the age of thirty he was chosen by the name-in the-hat method
prescribed in "The Third Legacy Manual" as one of his state's two delegates to
the
Eleventh General Service Conference in New York.
Do the Young People in AA conferences divert energy that could be better
utilized in
contributions to AA as a whole? Maybe so.
None of the young members on the program in Milwaukee spoke of service to AA as
General Service Representatives, local Committeemen, or G.S. Conference
Delegates.
(However, the Milwaukee Central Office Secretary says local youngsters are avid
GSO
supporters.) There were no Grapevine Representatives or contributors among them.
Little was said of institutional work and nothing about correspondence with
loners;
lack of information about AA as a whole and its Third Legacy seemed on a par
with
what I've found in almost any other AA gathering not specifically devoted to
those
larger, more demanding aspects of worldwide AA service.
There was at the Milwaukee gathering, though, an unusually intense awareness of
AA
Traditions and the need for Public Information activities by AA members.
Newspaper
reporters were especially well treated. Nonalcoholic guests included the
executive
director of the Chicago Alcoholic Treatment Center, a prison warden, and a high
school principal. A rehabilitation counselor of Chicago's police department was
also
present by invitation.
On the value of special young people's groups, here is what one central office
secretary from a large city said: "These young people's groups are the
lifesavers of
AA in our area. They are actually open to members of all ages but the service
jobs in
them are held by those under thirty-five. It's from these young people that we
get
most of the best workers who keep our Central Office functioning. They're the
ones we
can count on most to take on Twelfth Step jobs, institutional work and public
information tasks."
One of the older "advisors" of the Milwaukee Conference said: "We noticed in my
regular group that young people didn't stick with us, and we had a meeting to
discuss
it one night. We wondered if maybe wasn't our own fault. That's why we helped
establish a young people's group and now do all we can to help these
conferences. You
see, it's great for us!"
The Milwaukee Conference had three such advisors ("We spoke only when spoken
to,"
grinned one of them), a practice established at the second youth conference, in
Chicago in 1959, when the youthful sponsors of the get-together found themselves
with
some pretty tough problems to lick.
Over objections and warnings by some of those present in Milwaukee, a permanent
"Advisory Council" was formed there to help perpetuate the youth conference idea
and
accumulate a body of guiding experience.
Two officers from each of the first four conferences make up the Advisory
Council.
They hope to establish a permanent fund to insure the financial solvency of
future
conferences (incidentally, all who went to Milwaukee, even the speakers, paid
their
own way); set up their own newsletter and public information activities, and set
up a
permanent address for the exchange of information about young people in AA.
"We're
not a movement, or a breaking away from AA," one conference leader kept
insisting.
"Our primary purpose is to help carry the message to younger people."
Perhaps these young people have a genuine, valid need for a new AA service arm,
in
line with our Ninth Tradition: "... we may create service boards or committees
directly responsible to those they serve." Perhaps not.
The member I know who has been sober longest seems quite unperturbed by such
new
developments as the young people's conferences. He says, "Don't forget, we have
a
self-corrective factor in AA. These special groups either function in the
framework
of AA, or they fold up. don't know what we have to be afraid of, as long as we
put
ourselves truly in God's hands. We ought to do everything we can to encourage
them,
to help them communicate with alcoholics they can reach and we can't. They don't
need
our censure. We owe them our love."
I felt quite at home among these younger members. I was impressed by the
quality of
their sobriety, their dedication to AA principles and work, their determination
generally to add to AA, never to detract from it or divide it. They taught me a
lot,
and I'll be sentimentally grateful for a long time.
One thing is certain: young people, thank God, are coming to AA in increasing
numbers. They hold the promise and the power of our future leadership, and the
older
members must help them to utilize their youth, vitality and great potential.
B.L., New York City

0 -1 0 0
3164 Steve Leeds
Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? 2/13/2006 12:04:00 PM

Hey All,

I have a cassette tape that is marked Sister Ignatia and Bill Wilson -
Longbeach Convention. The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but
I am looking for confermation that the womens voice is that of Sister
Ignatia. Could anyone confirm that she did speak with Bill at that
convention?

Thanks,
Steven





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3165 Ernest Kurtz
Bill D. Bill D. 2/13/2006 7:39:00 AM

Mel and interested others,

Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976, Nell Wing for sure and, I
think, trustee George G. told me that Bill D's story was not in the
first edition because he wanted to be paid for it.

At best third-hand hearsay to you, but . . . .

ernie k.

0 -1 0 0
3166 Archie Bunkers
Re: God as we understand Him God as we understand Him 2/13/2006 4:45:00 PM

In reading Glenn C.'s response to my original e-mail, I see that I did not
make myself clear enough. I realize that "God as we understand Him" is a
paraphrase of what James was saying. The Akron AA's knew this too. Could
this early referrence to James be an indication that whoever originated the
Big Book phrase "God as we understand Him" (either Bill W. or Jimmy B. or
whoever) been paraphasing William James?? My point is, that if this is
true, the Big Book would be that original printed source of the phrase "God
as we understand Him".

Archie B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Archie Bunkers" <ARCHIEBUNKERS@peoplepc.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him


> This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf
>
> "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that
> we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM."
>
> Is William James the source of the Big Book
> phrase "God as we understand him"??
>
> Archie B.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana)
>
> The passage which Archie quotes is from one
> of the four pamphlets we possess which
> were written by the early AA people in Akron.
> They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
> "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
> "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
> Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled
> "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous.
>
> In the passage in question, which says "William
> James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should
> believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM,"
> it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron
> believed, not that William James wrote that line,
> but instead were agreeing that adding "as we
> understand Him" to the references to God in the
> twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief
> that people of different personality types needed
> different types of spirituality and different kinds
> of conceptions of God.
>
> "God as we understand Him" was not a quote
> from James however, as they give it in this
> pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we
> understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what
> James was saying in the long quotation which they
> give from him, where James says "Religion shall
> mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of
> individual men in their solitude, so far as they
> apprehend themselves to stand in relation to
> whatever they may consider the divine."
>
> The early Akron AA people were clearly saying
> in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the
> teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and
> freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who
> followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great
> Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and
> Buddhists, could all join together in following the
> twelve steps and could understand why following
> these spiritual guides to action could lead us to
> the higher spiritual life.
>
> Here is that particular section of the pamphlet,
> which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that
> section, so the group can read in context what
> the early Akron AA people believed:
> _____________________________________
>
> "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous"
>
> Part IV
>
> BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the
> nebulous side, we are offered more concrete
> guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality.
> It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even
> though it seems so at first.
>
> Let's examine what some of the fine minds of
> history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators --
> have to say about religion. Note that none of them,
> with the exception of St. James, is a professional
> religionist.
>
> "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a
> sense of need." --Allan Menzies.
>
> "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and
> experiences of individual men in their solitude, so
> far as they apprehend themselves to stand in
> relation to whatever they may consider the divine."
> -- William James.
>
> "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as
> divine commands."--Immanual Kant.
>
> "Religion is that part of human experience in
> which man feels himself in relation with powers
> of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and
> makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba.
>
> "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and
> Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows
> in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted
> from the world."--The General Epistle of James,
> 1:27.
>
> One cannot but be impressed with the similarity
> of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps.
>
> The Menzies definition is nothing more than a
> condensed version of the first three steps wherein
> we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power
> greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our
> wills and lives over to that Power.
>
> William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we
> should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM.
>
> Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives
> over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven,
> wherein we are admonished to give our lives a
> thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and
> restitutions are without question divine commands.
>
> James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step,
> where we make use of our newly found powers.
>
> And all we need to do in the St. James passage is
> to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less
> and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a
> matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we
> were very definitely fatherless and widows.
>
> The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly.
> There is not an ethical religion in the world today
> that does not teach to a great extent the principles
> of Love, Charity and Good Will.
>
> The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who
> will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the
> great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social
> justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one
> of our finest examples of helping one another. When
> a member of the family gets into trouble of any
> kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally
> around with advice, admonition, and even financial
> assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason
> there are not more Jewish members of AA. The
> family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic
> problem.
>
> Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the
> poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler,
> and conduct themselves with personal dignity.
>
> Consider the eight-part program laid down in
> Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right
> action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness
> and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy,
> as exemplified by these eight points, could be
> literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or
> addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal
> love and welfare of others rather than
> considerations of self are basic to Buddhism.
>
> The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit.
> Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility
> and serenity.
>
> St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order."
> We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3167 ArtSheehan
RE: God as we understand Him God as we understand Him 2/13/2006 4:46:00 PM

Hi Archie

On the matter of "God as we understand Him" it might be useful to
examine more of the pamphlet "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics
Anonymous." The pamphlet is far more historically endearing than it is
factually enlightening.

Section IV of the pamphlet contains citations from Allan Menzies,
William James, Immanuel Kant, James Henry Leuba and "The General
Epistle of James" 1:27 (also called "The Book of James" in other
literature). In the 2nd paragraph of section IV it states:

"Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history-philosophers,
psychologists, educators-have to say about religion. Note that none of
them, with the exception of St James, is a professional religionist."

Ouch!

James is the brother of Jesus. He was a martyr for his faith and is
the source of the maxim "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17). I
had to wince at describing him as a "professional religionist." But
this is the difficulty that occurs when a member's (or group of
members') viewpoint is given the aura of factual history when it is no
more than the substance of opinion.

The pamphlet goes on to creatively cite from William James' "The
Varieties of Religious Experience:"

"Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of
individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves
to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine."

The pamphlet then creatively interprets the citation as "William
James, stripped of verbiage, states that we should believe in God AS
WE UNDERSTAND HIM."

Well William James has been stripped of verbiage. He didn't quite
state what is being attributed to him. An accurate and contextually
complete citation would read:

"Religion, therefore, as I now ask you arbitrarily to take it, shall
mean for us THE FEELINGS, ACTS, AND EXPERIENCES OF INDIVIDUAL MEN IN
THEIR SOLITUDE, SO FAR AS THEY APPREHEND THEMSELVES TO STAND IN
RELATION TO WHATEVER THEY MAY CONSIDER THE DIVINE. Since the relation
may be either moral, physical, or ritual, it is evident that out of
religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies,
and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow. In these
lectures, however, as I have already said, the immediate personal
experiences will amply fill our time, and we shall hardly consider
theology or ecclesiasticism at all."

As far as the assertion about what William James stated, I'd put it in
the same niche as the description of St James being a "professional
religionist." It's probably well intended but not at all well stated.
It's much more poetic license rather than a concise summation of
James' magnificent book.

William James didn't write about a variety of understandings. He wrote
about a variety of experiences and conversions (some occurring
suddenly and some occurring gradually). His book certainly allowed the
notion of individual understandings of God among the varieties of
religious experiences but I wouldn't focus on William James as the
primary source of the notion.

In AA history, it is likely that William James' book helped to
reinforce a notion already planted beforehand by Ebby T and the Oxford
Group. Bill W was given the book "Varieties ..." during his last stay
at Towns Hospital by either Ebby T or Rowland H.

Something else occurred prior to that is likely more relevant and
described in the Big Book (which is sometimes underappreciated for the
rich history it contains). In Chapter 1, Bill W recounts a poignant
and profound revelation for which Ebby T deserves credit along with
the Oxford Group:

[Big Book pg 12]

"Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the
vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain
antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God
personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I
could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind
or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the
Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with
scores of men who felt the same way.

My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't
you choose your own conception of God?"

That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in
whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the
sunlight at last.

It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater
than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I
saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of
complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I
have it? Of course I would!

Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want
Him enough. At long last I saw, I felt, I believed. Scales of pride
and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view."

This goes on to be repeated and reinforced throughout the remaining
chapters of the Big Book. Choosing one's own conception of God also
has the brilliance that the individual cannot blame anyone else for
the understanding and that they are responsible for it - good or bad.

As for the addition of "God as we understand Him" in the 12 Steps
(along with "Power greater than ourselves") both Jim B and Hank P are
credited with being the primary influence ("AA Comes of Age" pgs
166-167). Both claimed to be atheists at the time.

Although James' book was popular reading in early AA, the Oxford
Group's principles and practices (and Sam Shoemaker) carried much
influence - probably more than William James even though he is
mentioned twice in the Big Book.

Other influences such as Emmet Fox in "Power Through Constructive
Thinking" and "Sermon on the Mount" and a number of other authors and
books cannot be excluded either for their influence in both NY and
Akron. Dick B, in his writings about the Rev Sam Shoemaker, offers
quite a number of enlightening citations from Shoemaker's writings -
among them:

"Security lies in a faith in God which includes an experiment. It lies
in believing that God is" (Shoemaker, National Awakening, pp. 40-41).

"When we come to believe in God at all, we come to believe in Him as
having something definite to say about our lives. To believe in the
fact of the will of God is only to believe in God in the concrete"
(Shoemaker, Religion That Works, p. 55).

"Opening their minds to as much of God as he understood, removing
first the hindrance of self-will" (Shoemaker, Children of the Second
Birth, p. 47).

What I'm driving at is I don't see how the notion of "God as you
understand Him" can be attributed to a single primary source. It has
far too much of an ecumenical nature for conversion and redemption.

The idea certainly has served AA well - except when degraded to the
level of "door knob" and other things of that ilk. (Rule #62).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Archie Bunkers
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him

This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf

"William James, stripped of verbiage, says that
we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM."

Is William James the source of the Big Book
phrase "God as we understand him"??

Archie B.

________________________________

From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana)

The passage which Archie quotes is from one
of the four pamphlets we possess which
were written by the early AA people in Akron.
They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
"Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
"A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled
"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous.

In the passage in question, which says "William
James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should
believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM,"
it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron
believed, not that William James wrote that line,
but instead were agreeing that adding "as we
understand Him" to the references to God in the
twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief
that people of different personality types needed
different types of spirituality and different kinds
of conceptions of God.

"God as we understand Him" was not a quote
from James however, as they give it in this
pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we
understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what
James was saying in the long quotation which they
give from him, where James says "Religion shall
mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of
individual men in their solitude, so far as they
apprehend themselves to stand in relation to
whatever they may consider the divine."

The early Akron AA people were clearly saying
in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the
teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and
freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who
followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great
Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and
Buddhists, could all join together in following the
twelve steps and could understand why following
these spiritual guides to action could lead us to
the higher spiritual life.

Here is that particular section of the pamphlet,
which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that
section, so the group can read in context what
the early Akron AA people believed:
_____________________________________

"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous"

Part IV

BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the
nebulous side, we are offered more concrete
guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality.
It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even
though it seems so at first.

Let's examine what some of the fine minds of
history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators --
have to say about religion. Note that none of them,
with the exception of St. James, is a professional
religionist.

"Religion is the worship of higher powers from a
sense of need." --Allan Menzies.

"Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and
experiences of individual men in their solitude, so
far as they apprehend themselves to stand in
relation to whatever they may consider the divine."
-- William James.

"Religion is the recognition of all our duties as
divine commands."--Immanual Kant.

"Religion is that part of human experience in
which man feels himself in relation with powers
of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and
makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba.

"Pure religion and undefiled before our God and
Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows
in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted
from the world."--The General Epistle of James,
1:27.

One cannot but be impressed with the similarity
of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps.

The Menzies definition is nothing more than a
condensed version of the first three steps wherein
we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power
greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our
wills and lives over to that Power.

William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we
should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM.

Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives
over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven,
wherein we are admonished to give our lives a
thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and
restitutions are without question divine commands.

James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step,
where we make use of our newly found powers.

And all we need to do in the St. James passage is
to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less
and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a
matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we
were very definitely fatherless and widows.

The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly.
There is not an ethical religion in the world today
that does not teach to a great extent the principles
of Love, Charity and Good Will.

The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who
will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the
great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social
justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one
of our finest examples of helping one another. When
a member of the family gets into trouble of any
kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally
around with advice, admonition, and even financial
assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason
there are not more Jewish members of AA. The
family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic
problem.

Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the
poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler,
and conduct themselves with personal dignity.

Consider the eight-part program laid down in
Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right
action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness
and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy,
as exemplified by these eight points, could be
literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or
addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal
love and welfare of others rather than
considerations of self are basic to Buddhism.

The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit.
Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility
and serenity.

St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order."
We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered.





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0 -1 0 0
3168 RDUBYA
Re: Experience, strength, and hope Experience, strength, and hope 2/13/2006 8:06:00 PM

Penny,

Pleae look at the last line of the Forward to the third edition of Alcoholics
Anonymous.

Roger W.



Penny <ipenny12@yahoo.com> wrote:
Where did the phrase share our experience, strength
and hope come from?

In love and sobriety
Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00
Roanoke Virginia

Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is
greater than the fear of letting go!
Never assume some one knows you love them,
take the time to tell them.




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Love and Service
Roger M Weed
"be strong in the Lord, and in the Power of His might". Eph 6:10







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0 -1 0 0
3169 Mitchell K.
RE: First woman was Jane S., not Florence First woman was Jane S., not Florence 2/13/2006 7:55:00 PM

It appears that someone has no idea what the book I
wrote was based upon or the fact that it wasn't just
Clarence's bio but an historical account of early
Cleveland AA.

Only a small part of the book was based upon
interviews with Clarence. Dozens of oral histories of
early AA members in AA archival repositories -
including AAGSO - were used. Several thousands of
pages of original documents from Cleveland and other
archival repositories including AAGSO, Stepping Stones
etc were used. A couple hundred hours of live,
in-person and phone interviews of long-term members
and friends of AA were used. Over 11 years of
extensive research, writing and review went into the
book.

Your constant efforts to malign and discredit the book
continues to illuminate your own agenda here. The
name, Jane S. does not appear in any of the early
Cleveland archival materials or dozens of meeting
rosters or histories of all the original groups
compiled by Norm E., the recording statistician from
the Cleveland Central Committee in the early 1940's.

Cheers

> I agree that a reasonable period of dry time should
> be a factor as
> opposed to just when someone might have first showed
> up. Bill and Bob
> had two unsuccessful Akron, OH prospects (Dr McK and
> Eddie R) prior to
> Bill D being dubbed "AA #3." Plus there was the
> legendary "Lil."
>
> Using the 1-year criterion would favor Florence R
> for primacy and my
> vote goes to Florence.
>
> Jane S (presumed to be from Cleveland) predated
> Clarence S (the
> acknowledged Cleveland pioneer) by a year yet she is
> not recalled in
> Mitchell K's biography of Clarence S (based on
> interviews with
> Clarence). So I just don't know where Jane S fits
> other than being
> mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" along
> with "Lil."
>
> Cheers
> Arthur
>
> __________________________________
>
> Message 3142 from:
> Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers]
> First woman was Jane S., not Florence
>
> Perhaps if we could agree on a question first, then
>
> it could be addressed. The question could be, "Who
> was the first woman working the program of what
> became Alcoholics Anonymous to attain a year's
> sobriety?"
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3170 Mitchell K.
Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/14/2006 12:22:00 AM

The October 1944 issue of the Cleveland (Ohio) Central
Bulletin announced the first Young People's meeting:
"Age is no barrier if you wish to participate in the
meeting of one of the newest groups, organized in
October. The group calls itself the Young People's
Group and it was formed by several of the younger
A.A.'s...20's - 30's. But they stress the fact that
they do not exclude 'oldsters' from their meetings."

The group met on Wednesdays at 8:30 PM in the West
Side Evangelical Hall on West 38th Street and Bridge.





--- Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote:

> The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was
> started February 1946 by
> Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being
> under 30 years of age they
> thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with
> the younger alcoholic. They
> started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA
> under 35 years of age. The
> group had several female members. They felt they
> could deal with members who
> were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as
> older members. They had
> parties, picnic's and other social events as well
> as the AA meetings.
> Several years ago,at a workshop that had several
> original group members,
> I remember Pat C saying that she and several
> other members of the group
> got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st
> Young Peoples convention.Most
> of those that attended the workshop had a love of
> life and of each other and
> were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety.
> The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday,
> February 14th at 7 P.M. at
> 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania.
> Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups
> before that date. I think
> there may have been another group in the Los Angeles
> area.
> Yours in Service,
> Shakey Mike G.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3171 Veda
Re: "burning desire" "burning desire" 2/13/2006 9:16:00 PM

I don't know about the "burning desire" but "do the next right thing" comes
from the story of Dr. Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now named
Acceptance Is The Answer". And the saying "It works if you work it" comes
from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says "It works it really does".

-------Original Message-------

From: hesofine2day
Date: 02/13/06 00:11:05
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "burning desire"

I have an idea that many of the expressions and
conventions in AA these days have seeped in from
NA and/or treatment centers.

Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have
a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting?

Also where did the expression "do the next right
thing" come from?

And finally saying "It works if you work it" after
the Lord's prayer.
________________________________

From the moderator:

Raymond I., who shows up in my book about
old time AA in northern Indiana
(see http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html)
frequently tells newcomers "you must want it with
a burning desire." He says he didn't make up
this phrase, but that it was something that other
people also said back in the old days.

"Old time" is relative.

Raymond came into the program in 1974, but was
trained by the old-time black AA members who came
into South Bend AA in the 1940's. He doesn't talk
treatment jargon or use the jazzy NA phrases that
everybody chants at the end of their meetings.

So I think that in the form "you must want it with
a burning desire," the words go back to a period
before all the psychobabble and high school
cheerleading type stuff.

The great heyday of the treatment centers funded
by insurance money ran from the mid 1980's to
the mid 1990's approximately, so anything prior
to the mid 1980's is probably not coming from
that source.

But can anybody trace "you must want it with a
burning desire" back before the 1970's?

"Modern AA" and "old time AA" are both relative
terms, and in the earliest years, 1936 is very
different from 1938, 1939 is very different from
1941, and 1946 is very different from 1948 or
1949. The 1960's were very different from the
1950's. AA was going through continuous change
and development during that whole period. But
it was working effectively and continuing to
grow and expand at an enormous rate.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)





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0 -1 0 0
3172 j_oys5672
Re: "burning desire" "burning desire" 2/14/2006 8:01:00 AM

Frank M. from Illinois early on in his story makes the statement "It
works if you work
it and it dont't if you don't. I do not know if he is the originator of this
statement. As i
have been told many times nothing in Alcoholics Anonymous is Original !


Jerry O.


Southern MN. Area 36 Archivist

0 -1 0 0
3173 j_oys5672
Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker 2/14/2006 8:12:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, sbanker914@
... wrote:

Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio
tape was slipped into a purchase of books I
had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long
gone). It turned out to be a wonderful talk
by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of
Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think.
I don't remember specifics of the tape very
well, but I'll never forget Gertrude ....
I wonder if anyone else ever heard that
tape or remembers Gertrude.

Susan Banker
NYC
____________________________________________

It may just possibly be Gert B. If my memory
serves me right I believe she was living in
Iowa a number of years ago and I don't know
if she is still living. I have three tapes
by Gert B.
Jerry


Southern MN. Area 35 Archivist

0 -1 0 0
3174 Russ Hillard
Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/14/2006 12:01:00 PM

Well, that didn't take long....

See http://www.doctoryourself.com/hoffer_niacin.html - to pique your interest
here is an excerpt:

"The term vitamin B-3 was reintroduced by my friend Bill W., co-founder of
Alcoholics Anonymous, (Bill Wilson). We met in New York in 1960. Humphry Osmond
and I introduced him to the concept of mega vitamin therapy. We described the
results we had seen with our schizophrenic patients, some of whom were also
alcoholic. We also told him about its many other properties. It was therapeutic
for arthritis, for some cases of senility and it lowered cholesterol levels.
Bill was very curious about it and began to take niacin, 3 g daily. Within a
few weeks fatigue and depression which had plagued him for years were gone. He
gave it to 30 of his close friends in AA and persuaded them to try it. Within 6
months he was convinced that it would be very helpful to alcoholics. Of the
thirty, 10 were free of anxiety, tension and depression in one month. Another 10
were well in two months. He decided that the chemical or medical terms for this
vitamin were not appropriate. He wanted to persuade members of AA, especially
the doctors in AA, that this would be a useful addition to treatment and he
needed a term that could be more readily popularized. He asked me the names that
had been used. I told him it was originally known as vitamin B-3. This was the
term Bill wanted. In his first report to physicians in AA he called it "The
Vitamin B-3 Therapy." Thousands of copies of this extraordinary pamphlet were
distributed. Eventually the name came back and today
even the most conservative medical journals are using the term vitamin B-3.
Bill became unpopular with the members of the board of AA International. The
medical members who had been appointed by Bill, felt that he had no business
messing about with treatment using vitamins. They also "knew" vitamin B-3 could
not be therapeutic as Bill had found it to be. For this reason Bill provided
information to the medical members of AA outside of the National Board,
distributing three of his amazing pamphlets. They are now not readily
available."

Regards,

Russ HIllard

JOHN e REID <jre33756@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession
on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where
this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and
interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide
me with an electronic copy.

Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and
walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot,
having "done" my first 4 & 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3
months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the
1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct & personal guidance from Wesley
Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions
Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting
against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA
jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out.

Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a
shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and
mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit
from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings
list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA
material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to
me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which
included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill
Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also
suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt & pepper shaker, so as I
would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I
will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need
Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual
hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental)
hopelessness of the disease.

Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold
Disease!!!!
Kind Regards, John R

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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0 -1 0 0
3175 Russ Hillard
Re: Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B Bill W''s writings on Vitamin B 2/14/2006 11:54:00 AM

Hi All -

John's inquiry below has prompted me to look around a bit. The search has
just started, but I have found that Dr Abram Hoffer knew Bill W and he is
apparently the original source of Bill's interest in niacin (one of the
B-complex vitamins) for the treatment of alcoholism.

Dr Andrew Saul has written extensively on the importance of nutritional
factors (including, but not limited to, B-complex vitamins) in the treatment of
alcoholism. For a quick introduction you might look at
http://www.doctoryourself.com/alcoholism.html

If I turn up anything really historical I'll let you know.

Best regards,

Russ Hillard

JOHN e REID <jre33756@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
I have, somewhere, a hard copy of Bill W's writings to the Medical Profession
on Vitamin B and its benefits to alcoholics. However, I am not sure as to where
this had copy is. However, I am sure that by now, these very informative and
interesting studies would be stored, electronically.Could someone please provide
me with an electronic copy.

Having "found" my first Sponsor (Broken Hill Jack who I knew all my life and
walked with me for 29 years until he died July 1, 2001) virtually day dot,
having "done" my first 4 & 5th Step (from the Big Book) when I was less than 3
months sober, having been involved in the 3rd Steps Meeting in Australia, the
1st Big Book Study Groups (under direct & personal guidance from Wesley
Parrish), the first Beginners Group, 1st Sponsorship Workshop, 1 st Traditions
Workshops, 1 st Workshops on the Four Absolutes, etc., I am not suggesting
against anything to do with "structured Recovery process" (not necessarily AA
jargon). However, I came into AA before "Living Sober" was put out.

Based on my own practical experience, of getting well physically from a
shivering, shaking mess, sufficiently enough to have the bodily capacity and
mental willingness to develop spiritually, I believe every newie would benefit
from being issued with a copy of "Living Sober" along with their local Meetings
list plus Members phone number, as their first hard copy collection of AA
material. I have been taking B vitamins for over 33 years, as was suggested to
me and as was the case for many many Oldtimers who showed me the "way" which
included the physical and mental as well as the spiritual. While Broken Hill
Jack "took me" straight to the Serenity Prayer, at our first outing, he also
suggested that I put the Vitamin B next to the salt & pepper shaker, so as I
would not forget to take it every morning. Broken Hill Jack also explained (I
will not go into his explanations now) why alcoholics like him and I need
Vitamin B. In fact when Bill was told to stop shouting from "spiritual
hilltops", it was suggested that he stress the (physically and perhaps mental)
hopelessness of the disease.

Pray God, as I "get well????", help me not to forget that it is a Three Fold
Disease!!!!
Kind Regards, John R

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0 -1 0 0
3176 ArtSheehan
RE: Experience, strength, and hope Experience, strength, and hope 2/14/2006 5:52:00 PM

Hi Penny

"Experience, strength and hope" first appeared in the June 1947
Grapevine. That issue carried the introduction of what we today call
the "AA Preamble." It was written by Tom Y, Grapevine's first editor
and was based on the foreword to the 1st edition Big Book.

The full text of the preamble and after-notes, as it read then in the
June 1947 Grapevine was:

Alcoholics Anonymous

Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share, their
experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve
their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop
drinking. A.A. has no dues or fees. It is not allied with any sect,
denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to
engage in any controversy, and neither endorses nor opposes any
causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other
alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

The A.A. Program of Recovery is incorporated in The 12 Steps. The A.A.
book of experience, Alcoholics Anonymous, and other literature,
including The 12 Points of Tradition, are available through any group
or the Central Office, P.O. Box 459, Grand Central Annex, New York 17,
N. Y.

The term "experience, strength and hope" was also incorporated into
the Foreword to the 3rd edition Big Book. Not that long ago it became
the title for the anthology containing the personal stories deleted
from prior editions of the Big Book.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Penny
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:15 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Experience, strength, and hope

Where did the phrase share our experience, strength
and hope come from?

In love and sobriety
Penny Morrison DOS 8-18-00
Roanoke Virginia

Change only happens when the pain of hanging on is
greater than the fear of letting go!
Never assume some one knows you love them,
take the time to tell them.





Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3177 sunnykhill12
Self-Support Self-Support 2/14/2006 2:54:00 PM

Was there an article in the Grapevine or in some other publication
that suggested a $1 per meeting donation in the meeting basket? If
so, what year was it published. I am seeing my Area and District
struggle financially because groups only have enough money to cover
their own expenses with the $1 mentality.
Any information would help - I have been asked to do a self-support
workshop.
Thanks,
Sunny H.
Little Rock, AR

0 -1 0 0
3178 David G.
RE: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker 2/15/2006 5:35:00 PM

Dear Ms. Baker,

Check out the link below to the biography of Gertrude Behanna.

Text and Real Audio tapes are available.

http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm#biog


Dave
Illinois
USA







Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:16:44 EST

Dear Art,

I've been a member of AAHistoryLovers for a long time and enjoy the list
very much.

Many years ago -- maybe 16 or so -- an audio tape was slipped into a
purchase of books I had made in a spiritual bookshop in NYC (long gone).
It turned
out to be a wonderful talk by a woman named "Gertrude" to a group of
Episcopal church women, in Chicago, I think. I don't remember specifics of
the tape
very well, but I'll never forget Gertrude. She was more than middle aged
when she made the tape and she had been sober a long time. She knew Dr.
Shoemaker and I think was a member of his congregation. Most vividly I
remember her
telling of the years she had lived in a house in Santa Fe which she had
filled up with needy women in early recovery.

I wish I had copied the tape, but I didn't. I passed it along to another
recovering woman.

I wonder if anyone else ever heard that tape or remembers Gertrude.

Susan B.
NYC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3179 greatcir@comcast.net>
AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living 2/15/2006 12:51:00 AM

In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake
on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for
alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic
beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall.

My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities?
Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small
developments) established over the years?

I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the
possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families
and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have
not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we
are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning
guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement
living.

Pete Kopcsak
Nashville, TN

0 -1 0 0
3180 Cheryl F
"More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/16/2006 12:51:00 PM

Does anyone know where the phrase "More will be revealed" came from? Someone
asked me the other day and I can't find it in the literature. Of course that
might mean I haven't read something I need to have read anyway yet.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3181 Fred
Dr. Bob`s Nightmare Dr. Bob`s Nightmare 2/16/2006 10:38:00 AM

Attending an archives workshop we came across an interesting question,
on page 175 there is mention of Dr. Bob`s father sending a doctor from
their hometown to bring him back there. Which consequently kept Dr.
Bob in bed for the NEXT 2 months before he could eventually venture
out of the house.Suffering from the effects of his alcoholoic behavior
certainly required some medical attention during this convelescence.We
could not determine the DOCTORS name who brought Dr. Bob back to St.
Johnsbury for this rehabilation attempt.Does anyone know of the NAME
of this DOCTOR from St. Johnsbury,Vt.
Inquisitively Grateful,
Fred

0 -1 0 0
3182 Bruce A. Johanson
RE: Re: Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker Women in AA: "Gertrude" and Rev. Shoemaker 2/17/2006 1:36:00 AM

Or it could be this Gertrude?

http://www.aabibliography.com/gertbehanna.htm

Great story of her!

Bruce A. Johanson

0 -1 0 0
3183 Joe Nugent
RE: AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living 2/17/2006 2:04:00 AM

Hi Pete,
there is no longer a camp Ouendake on Beausoleil Island which is located in
Georgian Bay, Ontario, This is a web site that can give you some information
re. this Island http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/on/georg/natcul/natcul3_e.asp
enjoy
Joe N.

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greatcir@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:51 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA Vacation Facility, Retirement Community Living


In the Brown University archives there is a post card from a Camp Ouendake
on Beausoleil Island in Gerorian Bay National Park that said it was for
alcoholics and their families. It also said "no rowdysim, alcoholic
beverages, dogs or firearms." No date on the card as I recall.

My questions are: Were there other AA family vacation or living facilities?
Have there been any AA flavored (or AA and Al-Anon) communitites (or small
developments) established over the years?

I ask because a few of we retired AA seniors have begun researching the
possibiity of such a small retirement housing development for our families
and we could certainly benefit from the lessons of others. So far, we have
not found an AA related communtiy (or 12th step community) projects and we
are looking at only http://www.cohousing.org/overview.aspx as a beginning
guidline for discussion among outselves with a focus on sober retirement
living.

Pete Kopcsak
Nashville, TN

0 -1 0 0
3184 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: "burning desire" "burning desire" 2/17/2006 4:13:00 AM

Is this just opinion?

I have read Dr Paul's story again just now and see
nothing in there that I feel resembles that quote
and "It works it really does," seems a far cry from
the mindless chant heard at a lot of meetings.

At some of my groups, after the end of the Lord's
prayer, we say......STAY.

Chuck Parkhurst
______________________________

Responding to Message 3171 from "Veda"
<mcveda@yahoo.com> (mcveda at yahoo.com)

I don't know about the "burning desire" but "do
the next right thing" comes from the story of Dr.
Paul "Doctor Alcoholic, Addict" which is now
named "Acceptance Is The Answer".

And the saying "It works if you work it" comes
from the chapter "Into Action". Where it says
"It works it really does."
______________________________

Which was a response to Message 3158 from
<hesofine2day@yahoo.com> (hesofine2day at yahoo.com)

Does anyone know the origin of "Does anyone have
a burning desire?" at the end of a meeting?

Also where did the expression "do the next right
thing" come from?

And finally saying "It works if you work it" after
the Lord's prayer.
______________________________

From the moderator:

I presume that Veda's reference to Dr. Paul's
story is referring to the next to last paragraph,
which says:

"Acceptance is the key to my relationship with
God today. I never just sit and do nothing
while waiting for Him to tell me what to do.
Rather, I do whatever is in front of me to be
done, and I leave the results up to Him; however
it turns out, that's God's will for me."

So on the basis of those two references to the
Big Book, it looks like we would have to say that
"It works if you work it" is not a precise
quotation from the Big Book, although it has
some parallels to the phrase "It works it
really does."

I would see it myself as more of an attempt
to summarize an important part of the message
at the beginning of chapter 5 in the Big Book,
where it says things such as "Rarely have we
seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed
our path" and "If you have decided you want
what we have and are willing to go to any
length to get it -- then you are ready to
take certain steps."

And "do the next right thing" is also not a
precise quotation from the Big Book, although
it could be regarded as a summary of the next
to last paragraph of Dr. Paul's story.

The problem here is that, if "do the next right
thing" was already circulating as an AA slogan
prior to the publication of the third edition
of the Big Book in 1955, then what Dr. Paul
said could have been an expansion of the idea
contained in that AA slogan instead of vice
versa.

So far though, none of our members have given
us any information about WHEN "burning desire"
or "do the next right thing" or "it works if
you work it" first started being used as slogans
in AA circles, let alone who might have devised
these phrases.

Until we have at least some approximate dates,
we are, as Chuck points out, just guessing.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
3185 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: "More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/17/2006 5:00:00 AM

Cheryl

Though the phrase "more will be revealed" is
heard way too frequently at AA meetings, it
appears nowhere in the basic text of the book
Alcoholics Anonymous. It is another example
of many people at our meetings claiming "the
Big Book says," when in fact our textbook says
nothing of the sort. The closest thing to that
expression in our book is on pg 164 and states
....."God will constantly disclose more to you
and to us"

The way my sponsor explained it to me when I
first got sober was, I need not wait for more
to be revealed (when?!?) as opposed to knowing
that God will constantly disclose things to me,
providing I practice all the principles that the
program requires (our steps).

It is also my understanding that the phrase you
quoted is in the basic text of a book from
another 12-step program, Narcotics Anonymous.
Maybe someone more familiar with that fellowship's
literature can confirm that.

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

0 -1 0 0
3186 Mel Barger
Re: "More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/17/2006 8:46:00 AM

Hi Cheryl,

I'd say that this was probably suggested by the next to last paragraph in
"A Vision for You," in the Big Book. It says, "We realize we know only a
little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in
your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still
sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order."

Mel Barger

0 -1 0 0
3187 Bob McK.
RE: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/17/2006 8:32:00 AM

The October 1944 Cleveland, Ohio Central Bulletin
mentions formation that month of "The Young
People's Group." Was this the first such group?
I do not know.

In a talk in Akron, historian Ernie Kurtz said
that historians refer to the word "first" as
the "f-word."
_________________________

From the moderator: October 1944 is earlier
than the other citations we have received
from members of this group.

0 -1 0 0
3188 Tom Hickcox
Re: Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years Young People''s Group- 4021 Clubhouse Phila, Pa.Celebrates 60 years 2/17/2006 10:02:00 AM

At 23:22 2/13/2006 , Mitchell K. wrote:

>The October 1944 issue of the Cleveland (Ohio) Central
>Bulletin announced the first Young People's meeting:
>"Age is no barrier if you wish to participate in the
>meeting of one of the newest groups, organized in
>October. The group calls itself the Young People's
>Group and it was formed by several of the younger
>A.A.'s...20's - 30's. But they stress the fact that
>they do not exclude 'oldsters' from their meetings."
>
>The group met on Wednesdays at 8:30 PM in the West
>Side Evangelical Hall on West 38th Street and Bridge.
>

Mitchell,

Did the meeting survive, as in continue?

The reason I ask is I know of several similar meetings in my local area
that were started but never "took" and petered out after a relatively brief
time, on the order of months.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3189 t
Re: God as we understand Him God as we understand Him 2/17/2006 10:33:00 AM

Big Book page 12
"My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, 'Why don't
you choose your own conception of God?'"

Curious how seldom when this topic gets discussed that Bill's grandfather's
influence, from just two pages earlier, is forgotten.

Big Book page 10
" He talked for hours. Childhood memories rose before me. I could almost hear
the
sound of the preacher’s voice as I sat, on still Sundays, way over there on the
hillside; there was that proffered temperance pledge I never signed; my
grandfather’s
good natured contempt of some church folk and their doings; his insistence that
the
spheres really had their music; but his denial of the preacher’s right to tell
him
how he must listen; his fearlessness as he spoke of these things just before he
died;
these recollections welled up from the past. They made me swallow hard. "

0 -1 0 0
3190 Mel Barger
Re: Bill D. Bill D. 2/17/2006 9:49:00 AM

Hi Ernie,
In November, 1952, I spent the better part of a day with Bill D., who was
AA Number Three. I don't believe he withheld his personal story from the
First Edition because he wanted to be paid for it. He was not that kind of
a guy. My recollection is that he was not excited by the book project and
may have even thought it wasn't necessary. But he did tell me that Bill W.
had come out to Akron and recorded his story for the next edition. I
believe today that the Bill D. story we see in the Big Book was written by
Bill W. from the information he taped and wouldn't have been produced if
Bill W. hadn't taken the initiative in recording Bill D.'s story. Of
course, Bill W. would have then cleared it with Bill D. for accuracy, etc.
For Bill W., that probably meant lugging one of those old-fashioned reel
recorders all the way out to Akron, but it was something he obviously
considered necessary.
Bill D. was a kindly, friendly man who was much loved as the Grand Old Man
of AA in Akron, a role he seemed to have following Dr. Bob's death. But he
didn't have Bill W.'s drive and vision. Maybe that's just as well, as he
never seemed to create trouble for Bill and Bob in their efforts to enlarge
the fellowship. He did have mixed feelings about Bill W., and may have felt
that Bill was getting too much credit. I had heard him called "The Guinea
Pig," but it was clear he didn't like this term. It turns out that Bill W.
used it one day when they were all on the platform at a large meeting, and
he appeared to resent it. Bill W. also told me that Bill D.'s feelings
about him were "ambivalent," so Bill D. wasn't entirely in Bill W.'s corner.
But he did cooperate with Bill W. on important matters and was even the
first delegate from the Akron area.
Bill D. had a marveous wife, Henrietta, whose prayers and support were
probably a factor in his getting sober. She was a matron at the Akron City
Workhouse, and I even visited her in her office there in 1958. She was
still living in 1980 just after "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was
published. I went out to visit her and even read portions of the book that
applied to her and Bill D. By that time, she was blind and living with her
son and his family. I find myself almost in tears when I recall that visit.
Mel Barger
_____________________

Responding to the message from Ernie K.:

Mel and interested others,

Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976,
Nell Wing for sure and, I think, trustee George G.
told me that Bill D's story was not in the first
edition because he wanted to be paid for it.

At best third-hand hearsay to you, but . . . .

ernie k.

0 -1 0 0
3191 diazeztone
Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/17/2006 9:57:00 PM

I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi)
preamble, Dallas, Texas.

She wrote the story "Flower of the South."
She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas.

Anybody have any idea how many different AA
talks there are by her which are still
obtainable??

LD Pierce
editor aabibliograpy.com

0 -1 0 0
3192 Mel Barger
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/18/2006 9:07:00 AM

Hi Sunny,

Maybe you are thinking of the current article, "A Buck in the Basket" in
the February 2006 Grapevine. The author, Jack H., is actually suggesting
two bucks, in view of growing inflation and rising expenses for groups.
Jack is a friend of mine and worked real hard to get that article published.
I am still having a hard time upping my contributions to $2, but I'm sure
I'll get to that point soon.

Mel Barger

0 -1 0 0
3193 Mike and Sarah
Re: Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? 2/20/2006 10:19:00 AM

Hello Steve -

Yes, she did.

Mike D.
Houston, TX
SETA Archives

__________________________
From: Steve Leeds <sleeds@canyonridge.org>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill Wilson and
Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention?

Hey All,

I have a cassette tape that is marked Sister
Ignatia and Bill Wilson -Longbeach Convention.
The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but
I am looking for confermation that the womens
voice is that of Sister Ignatia. Could anyone
confirm that she did speak with Bill at that
convention?

0 -1 0 0
3194 Jerry Oys
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/20/2006 7:29:00 PM

--- sunnykhill12 <SunnyKHill12@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Was there an article in the Grapevine or in some
> other publication
> that suggested a $1 per meeting donation in the
> meeting basket? If
> so, what year was it published. I am seeing my Area
> and District
> struggle financially because groups only have enough
> money to cover
> their own expenses with the $1 mentality.
> Any information would help - I have been asked to
> do a self-support
> workshop.
> Thanks,
> Sunny H.
> Little Rock, AR
>
> There are many Grapeviine articles addressing Self
-Support written by Bill W. and I belive others. If
you subscribe to the Grapevine for $10.00 a year you
can acess the Grapevine Digital archives and do a
search on Self- Support and they will all popup.
>
> FYI - The idea or thought suggesting the putting of
$2.00 in the basket as it was passed around the room
or table appeared in a Grapevine Article in 1950 by
Bill.
>
> In the time period of 1986 / 1990 and possibly later
GSO produced a green binder titled Self Support. It
contained various pieces of materiasl. The most
significant piece to me is the piece titled The
Challage of the Seventh Tradition. GSO also prouduced
a flyer showing a hand with 2 $1.00 bills haging from
it. Which believe was in the same time period. I
have the binder in my posession. I hope this helps
you in your venture. Sometimes Quickly ,Sometimes
Slowly. In I Alcoohlics Anonymous have learned from
my experience that We can't hear until we can hear and
We can't see until we can see!

In
Service


Jerry

Southern MN.
Area 36 Archivist

__________________________________________________
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0 -1 0 0
3195 johnlawlee
Re: movie slang movie slang 2/20/2006 8:33:00 PM

Never heard the cliche, "Do the next right thing" until the Spike Lee
movie "Do the Right Thing" was released in 1989. It's street slang,
the type commonly used by professional athletes as they're leaving
their third halfway house. No God. No Steps. Just me, deciding what
the next right thing might be. Managing my life again, just like the
old days.
john lee

0 -1 0 0
3196 Chris Budnick
RE: "More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/20/2006 10:50:00 PM

Chapter Ten of Narcotics Anonymous, commonly referred to as the Basic Text,
is titled More Will Be Revealed. It is the last chapter in Book One of the
text, which contains the program of Narcotics Anonymous. Book Two contains
the personal stories.


Chris

Raleigh, NC

0 -1 0 0
3197 billyk
The Late Liz The Late Liz 2/21/2006 4:40:00 AM

i checked out this web site and also the IMB (internet movie
database). the movie "the late liz" indeed was made in 1971
and starred ann baxter (extremely well acclaimed actress as
would be attested by our history lover elders).

i've never seen the movie and so my question is (and i'm
asking anyone), should this movie be added to our history
lover's database. it would seem so.

any input would be appreciated - direct them to me as to not
clog up the group mail (billyk3@yahoo.com).

thanks - be good to yourselves,
billyk

0 -1 0 0
3198 Gene
Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? 2/21/2006 2:47:00 PM

When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and
listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time
after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a
show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York.
I learned that he coined the expression...
"One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"...
I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his
life...
Does anyone know more about him?
I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly
weeping alone in my room.

It keeps getting better
Gene in Westchester

0 -1 0 0
3199 billyk
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/21/2006 5:02:00 AM

i have to comment here. one of my sponsors once told me
that since i was one of the lucky ones that didn't lose
the wife, family, house etc., and that i was 'doing okay',
i should put in the basket what i spent of booze. well...
if that were the case, our clubhouse would be adding a
mighty fine addition to the building.

but i read that article too (in grapevine, feb 2006) and i
thought it was well written and really brought home the
fact that inflation really has been ignored. and maybe,
people should up their donation to $2 if just once in a while.

but, something i learned from a close friend in the fellowship.
i give exactly a dollar a day. if it's been 3 days since
my last meeting, i give $4 (which is usually a five cause i
don't have four ones). and i always look for the opportunity
to do a little more like buy the newcomer a big book or support
a clubhouse activity (any clubhouse-not just mine).

i can't put a price on my sobriety, but the fact remains that
in this world, rent, coffee, materials, etc., all costs money.

that fellow who wrote the grapevine article said it all at the
end. "i am responsible......" and i accept that responsibilty
with a glad heart.

billyk

0 -1 0 0
3200 trixiebellaa
Silkworth''s theory Silkworth''s theory 2/19/2006 2:27:00 PM

Hi history lovers, can you please tell us if any of the other doctors
at the Charles Townes Hospital agreed or disagreed with Dr Silkworth's
allergy theory, thank you.

0 -1 0 0
3201 Julie
RE: "More will be revealed" "More will be revealed" 2/23/2006 3:00:00 AM

Found it in alanon book.
"How Alanon Works" on page 68 under Easy Does It
"If the time is right, more will be revealed."

Chris Budnick <cbudnick@nc.rr.com> wrote: Chapter Ten of Narcotics
Anonymous, commonly referred to as the Basic Text,
is titled More Will Be Revealed. It is the last chapter in Book One of the
text, which contains the program of Narcotics Anonymous. Book Two contains
the personal stories.


Chris

Raleigh, NC





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0 -1 0 0
3202 rfuhrman1011@comcast.net>
RE: Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? 2/23/2006 10:40:00 AM

http://www.440.com/favesw.html this is web site about the history of AM
radio and mentions Big Joe



Rob Fuhrman

Huntington, IN



-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:47 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"?



When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and
listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold time
after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a
show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York.
I learned that he coined the expression...
"One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"...
I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his
life...
Does anyone know more about him?
I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall quietly
weeping alone in my room.

It keeps getting better
Gene in Westchester










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0 -1 0 0
3203 jocis007@aol.com
Re: Re: movie slang movie slang 2/22/2006 11:41:00 PM

do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these
responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you assume
them." from
chapter 7


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3204 ArtSheehan
RE: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/23/2006 9:00:00 AM

Hi LD

Based on research I've been doing for the last few years, I'm fairly
certain that the so-called "Esther's Preamble" should not be
attributed to her as her invention. If you are referring to what is
also sometimes called the "Texas Preamble" I don't believe that my
home state of Texas should be credited with its invention either. As a
resident of Arlington, TX I don't pass this on with enthusiasm but I'm
doing extensive research for publication of a paper on how AA started
in Fort Worth and Dallas. There is much myth surrounding this.

A January 1945 article was submitted to the Grapevine by Merle S of
Dallas, TX saluting Esther E as starting AA in Dallas upon her arrival
in 1943. However, evidence exists, in GSO Archives news-clipping
scrapbooks that AA started in Dallas as early as 1941.

Due to the impact of mobilization for World War II, early Dallas
pioneers were eventually relocated elsewhere through war work or
service in the armed forces. Esther E certainly was a pioneer in
revitalizing AA in Dallas. A woman she sponsored, by the name of Anne
T, similarly helped revitalize AA in Fort Worth during the difficult
war years of the early to mid-1940’s. Ester was also very instrumental
in helping to start AA in San Antonio.

A remarkable series of correspondence between Esther and Bobbie B,
AA’s second national Secretary, provide a detailed history of the
development of AA in Dallas and Fort Worth. One thing that can be
definitely stated about Esther is that she was a remarkable woman and
a natural historian. Her correspondence with Bobbie has revealed
information I've been searching for about 3 years now. There is no
doubt in my mind that Esther's correspondence provides the definitive
history for how AA originated in the Fort Worth/Dallas metroplex (as
well as a few other Texas locations).

In regard to the preamble, several variations are attributed to
different locations in the US. Barring the discovery of dated source
documents, the establishment of primacy is probably beyond possibility
at this point in time. The preamble contains material from the "Akron
Manual" (c 1940)as well as extracts from the 1st edition Big Book
Foreword and basic text.

The earliest genuine copy of the preamble I've been able to locate
locally is in a 1946 document in the archives of the Harbor Club in
Fort Worth, TX. The preamble originated some years prior to that but I
haven't been able yet to locate an earlier original or facsimile.

I'll send you some additional material to your web site email address
unless you want me to send it to a different address.

Cheers
Arthur


-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diazeztone
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:57 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Ester's preamble, Dallas, Texas

I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi)
preamble, Dallas, Texas.

She wrote the story "Flower of the South."
She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas.

Anybody have any idea how many different AA
talks there are by her which are still
obtainable??

LD Pierce
editor aabibliograpy.com










Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
3205 johnpublico
Re: Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? Does anyone remember "The Happiness Exchange"? 2/23/2006 1:39:00 AM

Gene:

I've heard that Big Joe's show was underwritten by the Salvation Army
and was one of the first call-in shows on radio (you only heard his
voice). It promoted people helping one another and had a strong
spiritual angle. This is Rosenfeld's obituary as it appeared in The
New York Times:

-------------------
Published: December 19, 1987

LEAD: Joe Rosenfield Jr., who was the host of a radio talk show
called ''The Happiness Exchange'' for many years, died on Nov. 22 at
a nursing home in Falmouth, Me., after a long illness. He was 86
years old.

Joe Rosenfield Jr., who was the host of a radio talk show
called ''The Happiness Exchange'' for many years, died on Nov. 22 at
a nursing home in Falmouth, Me., after a long illness. He was 86
years old.

Mr. Rosenfield, who was known as Big Joe, did a nighttime show during
what was called ''the insomnia stretch'' from 2 to 5 A.M. Broadcast
over several New York radio stations from 1949 to 1962, the show
raised large sums in contributions by letting the unfortunate air
their troubles.

Born and raised in Tennessee, Mr. Rosenfield began his first
nighttime program with his son, Joe 3d, in New Orleans. His nickname,
Big Joe, evolved to differentiate him from his son.

Mr. Rosenfield is survived by his second wife, Ruth, of Falmouth,
Me.; a son, Joe, of Acton, Mass., and a daughter, Dorothy Fisher-
Smith, of Ashland, Ore.; six grandchildren, and six great-
grandchildren.

---------------
I didn't listen to Big Joe, myself. I'd listen to Jean Shepherd on
WOR, keeping the volume low so my parents wouldn't know I was up so
late on a school night.

I'll never forget how Shepherd would tell you to put your radio on
the window sill and turn the volume all the way up; then he
would "hurl an invective" at your neighbors. Something like, "I
can't stand this neighborhood. Take your goddamn wash off the
line!!" Just the sort of thing for a somewhat demented 14 year-old.

John K in Charlotte







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" <genesclean@...> wrote:
>
> When I was a depressed kid I'd stay up at night unable to sleep and
> listen to Big Joe on the Happiness Exchange...Early radio sold
time
> after it's daily programming was over, and Big Joe Rosenfeld had a
> show from 1AM till 3 or 4...on WABC radio, New York.
> I learned that he coined the expression...
> "One is too many and a thousand isn't enough"...
> I have subsequently learned that Bill W had a major impact on his
> life...
> Does anyone know more about him?
> I still remember his theme song.."Somebody Cares" and recall
quietly
> weeping alone in my room.
>
> It keeps getting better
> Gene in Westchester
>

0 -1 0 0
3206 timderan
RE: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/24/2006 2:03:00 AM

"Texas Preamble"


Art:

One thing I vaguely remember is that the so called "Texas Preamble" appeared
once in the Grapevine several years ago. I do not remember the month or
year, but, I remember reading it there. You might know something of it or
want to look into it.

tmd

0 -1 0 0
3207 Mike and Sarah
Re: The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript 2/20/2006 12:01:00 PM

2-20-06


Dear MK -

Just finally getting to read a great deal of saved AA History Lovers E-mails.
Wow. Just a question.
Regarding an e-mail from you on January 26,06 regarding galleys, Cornwall,
Living Sober, etc.

My question, regarding the friend of Barry. Maybe also even just yourself? I
have been wondering about
the 'Bill's Birthday talk' that he gave at NY Intergroup every year. Especially
the final talk
of Bill at the NY Intergroup event which was held on or close to his own
birthday...
'69, '70? Do you, or did Barry and/or his friend know if a recording of this
event ever was made?
Was / is it an item held in the archives of GSO? I have asked them about it...no
response as of yet.

OK. So, I guess that is as about as simple as I can put it across to you.
Regardless, thanks for being part
of this.

Mike D.
Houston, TX
SETA Archives Committee

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Jan 26, 2006 4:38 AM
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] The Dr. Howard/Hank P. manuscript
>
>
>
> From what I have learned, this
>> one manuscript was brought to Cornwall Press in the
>> Nyack, New York area of the Hudson River valley in
>> February 1939---
>
>Just a quick geographical correction. The Cornwall
>Press was located in Cornwall, NY located in Orange
>County, NY. The first edition printings were done
>there as were several of the 2nd edition printings.
>The company merged with another and from what I
>understand, further printings were done in New Jersey.
>
>When the galleys were gone over, it was done by Bill
>W., Hank P., Ruth Hock and Dorothy Snyder who came up
>to Cornwall to go over them.
>
>As far as Barry's family giving anything to AAWS, due
>to a history of problems, litigation and pending
>litigation over royalties for Living Sober They had no
>desire to give AAWS anything. There was a great deal
>of animosity generated. I remember going over all the
>drafts for Living Sober which were housed in a
>friend's apartment in Connecticut. This friend had
>many of Barry's materials as well as another friend's
>materials which were left to him (Ron was involved
>with many of the private recordings of Bill W. and
>Bill speaking at his anniversaries in NYC - I think
>close to 200 of them and left them to Dennis when he
>passed on). I have no idea where these materials might
>be today (I do have some guesses). Dennis was a
>collector of AA memorabilia and had a small but
>amazing collection. There were some great "spook", LSD
>and vitamin B tapes but as I was only allowed to
>listen to portions of them, not make copies or take
>notes, unless they surface again, the material
>contained in them might be lost.
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3208 Diz Titcher
Re: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/20/2006 8:43:00 PM

I saw one in the Houston Intergroup office years ago.

"diazeztone" <eztone@hotmail.com> (eztone at hotmail.com)
wrote in saying:

I am looking for a copy of Ester's preamble, Dallas, Texas.

0 -1 0 0
3209 Azor521@aol.com
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/22/2006 8:14:00 PM

In the February 2006 AA Grapevine on page 21 is an excellent article titled,
"A Buck in the Basket?"
The on line Grapevine archives are awesome! _www.aagrapevine.org_
(http://www.aagrapevine.org)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3210 Bill Lash
RE: The Late Liz The Late Liz 2/23/2006 5:23:00 PM

I have a copy of this movie & just watched it for the first time. Here is
my revue:

Woman drinks
Woman drinks more (always has a drink in each hand)
Woman drinks non-stop with fake friends
Woman cheats on second husband
Woman drinks
Woman remarries
Woman experiences alcoholic progression
Woman's alcoholism pushes away older son, younger son forgives & stays with
her
Woman drinks
Woman's alcoholism pushes away third husband
Woman experiences alcoholic insanity & bewilderment
Woman tries to commit suicide by taking many sleeping pills with booze
Woman has a spiritual experience while near dead
Woman awakes from the coma
Woman fights off urges to drink and begins to annoy fake friends with talk
about God
Woman's conversion experience leads her to a church thanks to her youngest
son
Woman commits herself to being involved with the church
Woman begins to help a friend who also has a drinking problem thanks to the
help of her new pastor
The End

Just
Love,
Barefoot
Bill





-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of billyk
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:40 AM
To: bajohanson@charter.net; History Lovers
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Late Liz


i checked out this web site and also the IMB (internet movie
database). the movie "the late liz" indeed was made in 1971
and starred ann baxter (extremely well acclaimed actress as
would be attested by our history lover elders).

i've never seen the movie and so my question is (and i'm
asking anyone), should this movie be added to our history
lover's database. it would seem so.

any input would be appreciated - direct them to me as to not
clog up the group mail (billyk3@yahoo.com).

thanks - be good to yourselves,
billyk


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3211 ricktompkins
Re: "burning desire" "burning desire" 2/24/2006

Hi group,
Here's a 'burning desire' to reply to this post before its thread goes away.

"Do the right thing" is a movie, the title copyrighted by Spike Lee's film
company.
AA's Eleventh Step, "praying only for knowledge of His will and the power to
carry it out" has had much input and interpretation over our years of
existence. Our early founders spoke of the search for the 'next, best, indicated
course' of action, specifically relating to Step Eleven. I agree with our
Moderator, Glenn, that "old time" is a relative concept on this phrase---not
many speak the same way as was spoken in the late 1930s. From recollections of
Ruth Hock's daughter, that exact phrase "next, best, indicated" was used
verbatim and regularly. The phrase evolved into the 'next, best, thing' that I
first heard many years ago, too, but let's remember that it comes from Step
Eleven.

"It Works If You Work It!" is part of our ever-longer chants that follow a
meeting closing...Phrases like "keep coming back" usually start it, and 'keep
coming back, it works if you work it, sober!' are the current norm, with arms
waving and all...From my own experience, this "gospel shout" comes from
treatment centers and nowhere else, and it took hold in AA in the early 1990s. I
don't believe it has caused any harm, but at face value it's pretty silly. Just
think, if this stuff was going on in the 1950s, the Hokey-Pokey dance would have
fit just fine with the closing chant!

"Does anyone have a 'burning desire' to share" or "to add more thoughts" is a
normal question a meeting chair can ask before closing an AA meeting. I still
hear it a lot.

Rick, Illinois

___________________________

A comment by the moderator:

Rick,

What makes the idea of the whole AA group
dancing what would become known as the
"Higher Power Hokey-Pokey" in a circle
after the closing prayer, and finishing up
with a shouted "and that's what it's all
about!" is that I can halfway imagine it
actually happening!

Turn backward, O time, in thy flight!

Your friend, Glenn

0 -1 0 0
3212 jeanne avolio
Re: Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas Ester''s preamble, Dallas, Texas 2/24/2006 7:31:00 PM

This was sent to me about 7 months ago, I dont know if it's the same one your
talking about here,thought i'd share it with the group..I had it read at my
birthday meeting this past aug..Many were surprised to kno as I was that there
was another one written years ago.maybe someone in the group can give a history
on this.In His Grace >>Jeanne
AA Old Preamble - 1940

We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are
powerless over alcohol and unable to do anything about it without the help
of a Power greater than ourselves.

We feel that each person's religious views, if any, are his own affair. The
simple purpose of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to show what may be
done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves regardless of what
our individual conception of that Power may be.

In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to that
Power, we must at first apply ourselves with some diligence. By often
repeating these acts, they become habitual and the help rendered becomes
natural to us.

We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a serious
illness for which medicine has no cure.

Our condition may be the result of an allergy, which makes us different from
other people. It has never been by any treatment with which we are familiar,
permanently cured. The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence,
the second meaning of A.A.

There are no dues or fees. The only requirement for membership is a desire
to stop drinking. Each member squares his debt by helping others to recover.

An Alcoholics Anonymous is an alcoholic who through application and
adherence to the A.A. program has forsworn the use of any and all alcoholic
beverage in any form.

The moment he takes so much as one drop of beer, wine, spirits or any other
alcoholic beverage he automatically loses all status as a member of
Alcoholics Anonymous.

A.A. is not interested in sobering up drunks who are not sincere in their
desire to remain sober for all time. Not being reformers, we offer our
experience only to those who want it.

We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree and on which we can join
in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly
followed our program. Those who do not recover are people who will not or
simply cannot give themselves to this simple program. Now you may like this
program or you may not, but the fact remains, it works. It is our only
chance to recover.

There is a vast amount of fun in the A.A. fellowship. Some people might be
shocked at our seeming worldliness and levity but just underneath there lies
a deadly earnestness and a full realization that we must put first things
first and with each of us the first thing is our alcoholic problem. To drink
is to die. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we
perish.

In order to set our tone for this meeting I ask that we bow our heads in a
few moments of silent prayer and meditation.

I wish to remind you that whatever is said at this meeting expresses our own
individual opinion as of today and as of up to this moment. We do not speak
for A.A. as a whole and you are free to agree or disagree as you see fit, in
fact, it is suggested that you pay no attention to anything which might not
be reconciled with what is in the A.A. Big Book.

If you don't have a Big Book, it's time you bought you one. Read it, study
it, live with it, loan it, scatter it, and then learn from it what it means
to be an A.A."
-----------


diazeztone <eztone@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am looking for a copy of Ester's (elizardi)
preamble, Dallas, Texas.

She wrote the story "Flower of the South."
She was founder of AA in Dallas, Texas.

Anybody have any idea how many different AA
talks there are by her which are still
obtainable??

LD Pierce
editor aabibliograpy.com









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0 -1 0 0
3213 anmtcup
The God Angle The God Angle 2/24/2006 3:38:00 PM

Looking for information on a book similar to the 24 hour a day book
format entitled THE GOD ANGLE by The God Angle Committee, 1972.

0 -1 0 0
3214 Mitchell K.
Grapevine article on Mayflower phone calls Grapevine article on Mayflower phone calls 2/18/2006 5:52:00 PM

Looking for a link or copy of an article or articles Bill wrote in the
RHS Memorial Grapevine edition of the Grapevine. These articles relate
to the phone calls Bill reports making from the Mayflower Hotel in
Akron.

I only need that one article (or articles), not access to all the
back copies of the Grapevine on line.

Please contact me at:

<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
3215 Wendi Turner
"Next Right Action" - Dr. Paul O. "Next Right Action" - Dr. Paul O. 2/23/2006 1:44:00 PM

There was a question as to where "The next right action" came from in the
fellowship. I cannot give a certain response, but i do know the first place
i've seen it written.

In the stories in the back of the book, the wonderful story of Dr. Paul O.
published in the 3rd ed "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict" (BB3 439-452u)... and in the
4th ed as "Acceptance was the answer."

At the end of his story, i believe in the second to last paragraph... he speaks
of knowing that at any given moment, God's will for him is simply the "Next
right action."

Although this story is famous for it's slant on acceptance... my personal
favorite paragraph is the afore mentioned. That and where he discusses his
perspective in relation to his wife Max.

I am a part of the fellowship here in Southern California, Orange County. I go
to several meeting where Dr. Paul O. was the founding member of the meeting.
His spirit lives on here and is felt constantly. My home group meeting is where
he sat every Wednesday night for years.

I love and cherish his legacy of "next right action." Keeps me in the now when
i choose to act.

0 -1 0 0
3216 johnlawlee
Re: movie slang movie slang 2/23/2006 5:21:00 PM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jocis007@... wrote:
>
> do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these
> responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you
assume them." from
> chapter 7
>
That's a real stretch. You could make a better argument for the
language at the bottom of page 87 of Big Book, "...ask for the right
thought or action." The point is that "do the next right thing" is a
popular cliche, heard on the street, in the media and, only
incidentally, in meetings since 1989. The first eleven chapters of Big
Book use the word "money" thirteen times, but I wouldn't claim that the
cliche, "Show me the money" comes from the Big Book.
love+tolerance
john
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

0 -1 0 0
3217 johnlawlee
Re: movie slang--Do the [next] right thing movie slang--Do the [next] right thing 2/23/2006 6:10:00 PM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, jocis007@... wrote:
>
> do the right thing is from the Big Book. "Never avoid these
> responsibilities, but be sure you are doing the right thing if you
assume them." from
> chapter 7

I should have been more specific, and I promptly admit it. The
original source of the cliche is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hall of Fame
basketball player, political activist and buddy of Spike Lee. Mr.
Abdul-Jabbar's well-known quote was, "I try to do the right thing at
the right time." Spike Lee is a huge basketball fan and polical
activist. Spike modified Kareem's quote for his movie title, so that
the quote became "Do the right thing". The quote doesn't come from
Big Book or any AA source. It's just Polly-Parrot rhetoric used
liberally by corporate public relations officers, high school
civics teachers, group therapy moderators and recovery group members.
john
where the Monongahela meets the Allegheny, to form the Ohio

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

0 -1 0 0
3218 Kimball
Re: Self-Support Self-Support 2/23/2006 9:35:00 PM

I remember when I first started coming around (1976), the oldtimers said "toss
in the cost of a drink" You could get a good stiff drink for a buck in 1976.
Can't do that now. If we still were tossing in the cost of a drink we might
still be self-supporting.
_________________________



A comment from the moderator:

I think this is useful. We need to pool our knowledge of early AA history and
get a better idea of the reasoning that was used, back at that point in AA
history, for deciding that a dollar was a reasonable amount.

Just like Kimball, I have also heard old timers talking about it in the context
of how much it cost for a drink.

What other reasoning did they actually use for deciding on the figure of a
dollar? I'm not talking about us just guessing about it, but would like to hear
from people who remember old timers actually talking about it.

A dollar for a good stiff drink in 1976 sounds about right, and seventy-five
cents to a dollar for a beer.

What would it be now at a bar of similar calibre?

And what about the 1960's and 1950's and even earlier?

What was the price of a single beer at a bar at various points between 1939 and
the present? What was the price of a shot of whiskey, or a single mixed drink,
as it continued to rise over that same period of time?

But I think we need to keep the focus on what we can actually know historically.

Glenn Chesnut
South Bend, Indiana

0 -1 0 0
3219 dpmoose69
First editon covers First editon covers 2/26/2006 9:13:00 AM

Hi, Bill T. thought you might me able to help me out.

I am working with a member that is trying to restore a first edition
third printing of the big book. He has askied if I can replicate the
front cover and spine lettering and create a black and white image of
it. I am looking for either actual scans of the cover, the font name
or style, or anything that would help.

I appreciate any and all feedback.

dpdave@cox.net

dave h

0 -1 0 0
3220 Tom Hickcox
Re: "burning desire", Chants "burning desire", Chants 2/26/2006 9:16:00 AM

A couple of comments from Jim S. and Tommy H.
______________________________

Comment from: "Jim S." <james.scarpine@verizon.net>
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)

Arsonists have burning desires.
______________________________

Comment from: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

Responding to Message 3211 from <ricktompkins@comcast.net>
(ricktompkins at comcast.net), where Rick said:

{"It Works If You Work It!" is part of our ever-longer chants
that follow a meeting closing... From my own experience, this
"gospel shout" comes from treatment centers and nowhere else,
and it took hold in AA in the early 1990s.}

The chants are moving, and are now starting to occur, not
just at the end, but also to "How It Works" at the beginning.
A couple of years ago people started chanting the last line
of How It Works, "God could and would, if He were sought,"
to the immense annoyance of a number of people. My wife, who
moved here from NYC last year said the chant is common there.
I think treatment centers started it to see who was still
awake.

Rick (who lives in Illinois) also said:

{"Does anyone have a 'burning desire' to share" or
"to add more thoughts" is a normal question a meeting
chair can ask before closing an AA meeting. I still
hear it a lot.}

More than once a chair has said, "People with burning
desires need to see their urologist."

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
3221 Charlene C.
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 2/26/2006 9:46:00 AM

From: "Charlene C." <ccp28para4@yahoo.com>
(ccp28para4 at yahoo.com)

IIdog wrote: <IIdog@prodigy.net> (IIdog at prodigy.net)
##I am looking for information on Dr. Paul Oehlinger. His
story is in the third and fourth edition of the Big Book.
The same story with different titles. I appreciate any
information on this.
Thank you,
Jane B.##

You can listen to Dr. Paul O.'s talk on-line. Go to
xa-speakers (The Lights Are On) at

http://www.xa-speakers.org/

then to aa-alcoholics anonymous, then
to single speakers. Dr. Paul's is on page 24.

C. Cook
______________________________

From: Tammy Cook <tomatolcook@yahoo.com>
(tomatolcook at yahoo.com)

Wendi Turner wrote:
<wenditurner@earthlink.net> (wenditurner at earthlink.net)
##In the stories in the back of the book, the wonderful story
of Dr. Paul O. published in the 3rd ed "Doctor, Alcoholic,
Addict" (BB3 439-452u)... and in the 4th ed as "Acceptance
was the answer." At the end of his story, i believe in the
second to last paragraph... he speaks of knowing that at any
given moment, God's will for him is simply the "Next right
action."##

I like the saying too Wendi. It helped me to not
feel so overwhelmed in the beginning...still helps sometimes too.
______________________________

From: "Joe Nugent" <joe-gent@sympatico.ca>
(joe-gent at sympatico.ca)

Dr. Paul O. was what I call an elder statesman.

Joe

0 -1 0 0
3222 jlobdell54
History & Archives Gathering June 24 2006 History & Archives Gathering June 24 2006 2/24/2006 9:40:00 AM

There will be a Multi-District History & Archives
Gathering on June 24 2006 location to be negotiated
but between Harrisburg PA and Lebanon PA, from about
8:30 a.m. to about 3:30 p.m.

This will be like the Gatherings held in Summerdale PA
April 2003 and Elizabethtown PA June 2004. (We skipped
a year for the International.)

We have invited AA historians Glenn C. and Mitch K.

We are also inviting other historians, and hope to
have exhibits from the Philadelphia Intergroup Archives,
the Maryland Archives, and the Northern New Jersey
Archives, at least, along with a speaker from GSO.

We expect Chet H. (DLD 4/4/49) to be in attendance,
and hope for other 50+ oldtimers.

No charge for attending. Keep the date free if you can,
and come if you can.

-- Jared Lobdell
__________________________________

A note from the moderator:

At the very beginning, AA developed around two major
centers:

(1) Akron, Cleveland, and that area of the
upper midwest clustering around the western Great Lakes.

(2) That area on the eastern seaboard which had New
York City at its center, but involved people from that
entire part of the eastern seaboard.

Eastern Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Jersey were
all part of that early eastern AA center, so Jared's
history and archives gathering should be of more than
simply regional interest, on those grounds alone.

Also Mitchell K. is our expert on early Cleveland AA,
which was a key part of the other early AA center.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana
(see map at http://hindsfoot.org/contact.html)

0 -1 0 0
3223 Rob
Re: First edition covers First edition covers 2/27/2006 10:38:00 PM

The best place I've found to get Big Book dust
jackets is http://www.dustjackets.org/. They have
replica dust jackets for all printings of the
first, second, and third edition.

Rob
______________________________

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

This is exactly the kind of work that Bob W. (archivist from
Little Rock, Arkansas) is involved in...

I've misplaced his contact info. Can anyone else provide it?

My email address is <cm53@earthlink.net> (cm53 at earthlink.net)

-cm
______________________________

From: "Gallery Photography" <gallery5@mindspring.com>
(gallery5 at mindspring.com)

If it were me, I wouldn't touch it. If he wants a good usable
book, go buy a new one. Take that book and put it in a glass
box.

Rotax Steve

0 -1 0 0
3224 silkworthdotnet
Ester and the Texas Preamble Ester and the Texas Preamble 2/27/2006 2:54:00 PM

Grapevine, February, 2001

Texas Preamble:

A few months after the Grapevine published the Preamble in June,
1947, Ollie L., Dick F., and Searcy W. decided to beef it up for the
drunks in Texas. "We worked on it, passed it around, and agreed on
this version, " says Searcy W. "It's now read by groups throughout
the state." It works for Searcy. He's been sober 54 years.

For all who would be interested in it:

-------------------------------------

Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their
experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve
their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

We are gathered here because we are faced with the fact that we are
powerless over alcohol, and are unable to do anything about it
without the help of a Power greater than ourselves.

We feel each person's religious convictions, if any, are his own
affair, and the simple purpose of the program of AA is to show what
may be done to enlist the aid of a Power greater than ourselves,
regardless of what our individual conception of that Power may be.

In order to form a habit of depending upon and referring all we do to
that Power, we must first apply ourselves with some diligence, but
repetition confirms and strengthens this habit, then faith comes
naturally.

We have all come to know that as alcoholics we are suffering from a
serious disease for which medicine has no cure. Our condition may be
the result of an allergic reaction to alcohol which makes it
impossible for us to drink in moderation. This condition has never,
by any treatment with which we are familiar, been permanently cured.
The only relief we have to offer is absolute abstinence - a second
meaning of AA.

There are no dues or fees. The only requirement is an honest desire
to stop drinking. Each member is a person with an acknowledged
alcoholic problem who has found the key to abstinence from day to day
by adhering to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. The moment he
resumes drinking he loses all status as a member of AA. His
reinstatement is automatic, however, when he again fulfills the sole
requirement for membership - an honest desire to quit drinking.

Not being reformers we offer our experience only to those who want
it. AA is not interested in sobering up drunks who are seeking only
temporary sobriety. We have a way out on which we can absolutely
agree and in which we join in harmonious action. Rarely have we seen
a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not
recover are those who will not or cannot lend themselves to this
simple program-- usually men and women who are incapable of being
honest with themselves. You may like this Program or you many not,
but the fact remains that is works.. and we believe it is our only
chance to recover.

There is a vast amount of fun included in the AA fellowship. Some
people may be shocked at our apparent worldliness and levity, but
just underneath there is a deadly earnestness and a full realization
that we must put first things firs. With each of us the first thing
is our alcoholic problem. Faith must work twenty-four hours a day in
and through us, or we perish.

with gratitude,
Jim M

0 -1 0 0
3225 Rob White
stepping stones stepping stones 3/1/2006 3:51:00 PM

I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in Bedford Falls NY (just above
NYC) where Bill and Lois lived from 1941 on.
It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly interested in AA history.

They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in exactly the same condition it
was when Bill and lois lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them in the
kitchen).

What a treasure trove of history!

You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill sat at in Clinton street
when Bill pushed a drink over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion".
You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann and Bill formed Council that
would become the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence .
You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big Book and the 12 and 12.
You can see the map filled with stick pins where Bill measured the progress of
new groups across the country.
You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked out when contemplating how he
would respond to the hundreds of questions
coming in from all over the country about how to start a meeting etc.

The best part - its largely undiscovered by the masses. You can get a quiet
visit with a volunteer tour guide and take your time to savor each part.

It is the most important collection of AA artifacts and history anywhere.

I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood home, gravesite)
I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower Hotel)
Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode.

www.steppingstones.org

they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a crowd,
but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one else is there.

Rob White
Baltimore
410 328 8549

0 -1 0 0
3226 chesbayman56
Significant March Dates in A.A. History Significant March Dates in A.A. History 3/2/2006 7:00:00 AM

March 1936 - AA had 10 members staying sober. At end of 1936 A.A.
had 15 members.
March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous.
Works Publishing Inc established to support writing and printing of
the book.
March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of
reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group.
March 1941 - Second printing of Big Book.
March 1941 - 1st Prison AA Group formed at San Quentin.
March 1946 - The March of Time film is produced by NY AA office.
March 1949 - Dr. Bob considers idea of AA conference premature.
March 1951 - American Weekly publishes memorial article for Dr. Bob.
March 1, 1939 - Readers Digest fails to write article on AA.
March 1, 1941 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article
published and membership jumped from 2,000 to 8,000 by years end.
March 3 1947 - Nell Wing started work at Alcoholic Foundation 415
Lexington Avenue.
March 4, 1891 - Lois W is born.
March 5, 1945 - Time Magazine reports Detroit radio broadcasts of AA
members. (Archie T?)
March 7, 1940 -- Bill and Lois visited the Philadelphia AA group.
March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted
to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury
St., at 8 PM Wednesdays.
March 9, 1941 - Wichita Beacon reports AA member from NY who wants
to form a group in Wichita.
March 10, 1944 - New York Intergroup was established.
March 11, 1949 - The Calix Society, an association of Roman Catholic
alcoholics who are maintaining their sobriety through participation
in Alcoholics Anonymous, was formed in Minneapolis by five Catholic
AA members.
March 14, - South Orange, NJ, AA group held an anniversary dinner
with Bill W as guest speaker
March 15, 1941 - 1st AA group formed in New Haven, Connecticut. Not
reported in paper until Oct 1, 1941.
March 16, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation & Works Publishing move from
Newark to 30 Vesey St in lower Manhattan. First headquarters of our
own.
March 21, 1881 - Anne R, Dr Bobs wife, is born.
March 21 1966 - Ebby dies.
March 22, 1951 - Dr William Duncan Silkworth dies at Towns Hospital.
March 22, 1984 - Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister", dies.
March 23, 1936 - Bill & Lois visit Fitz M, "Our Southern Friend", in
Maryland.
March 25, 1898 -- Jim B ("The Vicious Cycle") was born.
March 25, 2005 – Nancy Olson, Founder of AAHL- See Memorial at:
http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html
March 29, 1943 -- The Charleston Mail, WV, reported on Bill W's talk
at St. John's Parish House.
March 31, 1947 - 1st AA group formed in London, England.

0 -1 0 0
3227 Executive Editor
Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 3/2/2006 1:13:00 PM

Dr. Paul commented on the title of the story when interviewed in the
Grapevine. The story was originally published in the GV as "Bronze
Moccasins" and changed when reprinted in the Big Book. The interview is in
the GV's Digital Archive and in The Best of Grapevine.
Cordially,
Robin Bromley

0 -1 0 0
3228 Diz Titcher
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 2/28/2006 4:26:00 PM

Dr. Paul has written a few books, Contact Sabrina Publishing at 800-booklog
in Laguna Miguel, CA.
Diz T.

0 -1 0 0
3229 Kimball
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 2/28/2006 6:47:00 PM

Charlene, I met Dr Paul in Ogden Utah in the early 90s. The story (much
shorter) was originally titled the Bronze Moccasins and ran in the Grapevine.
It was later expanded for inclusion to the Big Book, and someone (possibly a
Grapevine editor) renamed the story Doctor, Alcoholic, Adict. Paul didn't mind
at first, but as time passed, some of our fellowship would point to the title of
his story and say things like "it talks about drugs in the Big Book" or "you
have to let me talk about drugs, it's in the book." That botherd him. Paul did
not want the title of his story to be a source of controversy. It was renamed
in the fourth editon to "Acceptance was the Answer."

I was at a area workshop when the first box of fourth edition Big Books came to
town and were uncrated. Everyone got a copy. It didn't take long for people to
realize that their favorite passage in the story "Acceptance was the Answer" was
moved from 449 to 417. I could almost hear a cry from coast to coast. Imagine,
refusing to buy the 4th edition because you could not accept the page change of
your favorite passage on Acceptance. A paradox of twisted thinking.

0 -1 0 0
3230 Charlie C
Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/1/2006 3:05:00 PM

Hi, not much of an AA historian here, although I am learning a lot from this
site, but as a reference librarian I would suggest an excellent resource for
information re the question of a dollar in the basket and prices of things would
be "The Value of a dollar: 1860-1999," a reference book most academic and larger
public libraries would have.

For example, in the 1935-1939 section, a pound of coffee was 26 cents. In
the 1940-44 section it is noted that a fifth of Seagrams blended whiskey was
$2.70 (coffee was cheaper actually, 24 cents a lb.) 1945-49, coffee was up to 31
cents a lb. In 1950-
54, coffee was 77 cents a lb., 93 cents in 1955-59...

If we take the late '60s as a benchmark, since that is apparently how long
the buck in the basket has been the stock donation, coffee had actually dropped,
to 85 cents a lb. A keypunch operator might make $85 a week, or a typist $90. A
6 pack of Shlitz was 99 cents, and, well, I could go on but I won't ;-)

Obviously the pegging of the standard donation at a dollar for so long is
totally in defiance of economic common sense when you think of inflation. A
sponsee of mine has a nice solution to this - he gets $2 bills at the bank,
expressly to make his donation with in meetings!

"Keep on truckin"
Michael Corbett, BCHS class of '74
______________________________

From the moderator:

It seems to me that, on the basis of Michael Corbett's and Tom White's and Bruce
Lallier's information, "a dollar in the basket" goes back to the late 1960's or
early 1970's. This was in fact roughly the cost of a mixed drink at a good bar
at that time. If we compare the cost of beer and shots of whiskey and bottles
of decent liquor then, with prices now, it seems to me that 3 to 4 dollars in
the basket would be the appropriate amount. Of course, if somebody wants to
fine tune it, and count out exactly $3.67 (or something like that) into the
basket, I suppose that person could do so.

Putting just small change into the basket, as they did in the 1930's, 40's, and
50's would have made sense too, if we used the price of a drink as the standard.
So it looks like the place where U.S. members started living in economic fantasy
was during the 1980's (and all the way down to the present).

This is something which is much more important for AA's survival than worrying
about chants at the end of meetings, or minor changes in the Big Book, or a lot
of the other things like that.

Among other things, it has forced the New York GSO to start functioning as a
profit making publishing business (with all the distortions this has produced)
because the membership has forgotten that "fully self supporting, declining
outside contributions" means that we are supposed to come up with the money to
support the New York office, not force it to sell books in order to survive.

And this also applies to intergroup offices and other necessary things.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)
______________________________

From: Tom White <tomwhite@cableone.net>

Glenn and Kimball:
I think I can dredge up a few memories of drinking in the 50s. I
sobered up in 59. "Nice" bars or "lounges" in NYC were one thing, but
if you were drinking on the cheap, which I usually did, a glass (not
a bottle) of tap beer was still a dime at a White Rose in NYC in 59,
I'm pretty sure, and it had been right through my 13 years of state-
side drinking after I got home from the Navy in 46. I think a bottle
may have been 35 cents (again, cheap bars or grocery stores). You
could get a shot of bar whiskey, a rye like White Feathers, for a
quarter (or could it have been 50 cents?). Prices went up from there
as you went "uptown," but it seems to me that in my first AA meetings
coins were still quite acceptable. I don't remember when the thing
became a standard one buck, but it sure has been hard to budge it
away from that. The price of a drink seems to have been the control,
after all, except that now it ought to be seen as more than a buck.
But then we have Bill's remark (was it not?) that sober alcoholics
are tighter than the bark on a tree. In our quite small group in
Odessa, Texas, we do seem to have the members trained to do $2.00.
Tom White

Kimball wrote:

I remember when I first started coming around (1976), the oldtimers
said "toss in the cost of a drink" You could get a good stiff
drink for a buck in 1976.
______________________________

From: "Bruce Lallier" <brucelallier@zoominternet.net>

When I came in in 71 we put a quarter in, seems like it went
from a quarter to a dollar without stopping in between. I also
heard some of the oldtimes at that time saying it was a one
time said "if you have it put it in, if you need it take it
out." Wonder how that would go over today.

Bruce, a Connecticut transplant in Conneaut lake Pa
______________________________

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

Followup to Glenn:
When talking about the Big Book at a meeting, I sometimes
indicate to the newcomers that they can get one "for the
price of a double margarita."

I agree with your reminders to supply historical evidence
on this board, not just conjecture or associations. Not
just "my sponsor told me or my therapist told me."

Isn't there something in Pass It On about how Bill
would pass the hat at Clinton Street, and never get
aper money [only change]?

john lee
member
pittsburgh

0 -1 0 0
3231 Tom Hickcox
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 3/6/2006 10:10:00 AM

At 12:13 3/2/2006 , Robin Bromley wrote:

>Dr. Paul commented on the title of the story when interviewed in the
>Grapevine. The story was originally published in the GV as "Bronze
>Moccasins" and changed when reprinted in the Big Book. The interview is in
>the GV's Digital Archive and in The Best of Grapevine.
>Cordially,

I got out my copy of the May 1975 Grapevine and compared the story "Bronzed
Moccasins" to the story "Doctor, Addict, Alcoholic" in the Third Edition
Big Book. [Note the correct title of the story.]

There are the same number of paragraphs and the first sentence of each
paragraph is the same in both volumes.

What changes, except the title for the story in the Four Edition are you
referring to?

I found an interview of him in the July 2001 GV but it doesn't mention the
original title of the article. What article are you referring to?

I like the original title much better than the current one, but that is
just my two cents.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3232 Mitchell K.
Re: stepping stones stepping stones 3/6/2006 8:44:00 PM

Just a couple of points....

When I visited with Lois about 3 months before she
passed on there were no glasses in the kitchen just as
there were no glasses in the kitchen when I visited
there soon after she passed on.

Maybe I'm losing my memory (I do know my short-term is
severely damaged) but can someone refresh it about
Bill & Marty starting what was to become the National
Council in the livingroom

As far as "THE" table.... it has been reported that
there are a few "THE" tables where Bill & Ebby met.

As far as the desk in the study on the hill being
"THE" desk where the Big Book was written... I've sat
at that desk many a time and it wouldn't fit in the
office in the Newark office and I someone will have to
fill me in if B&L stored the Clinton St. furniture or
took it with them on all their moves.

Another thing.... it cannot be classified as "It is
the most important collection of AA artifacts
> and history anywhere."

I'm tickled pink that you enjoyed yourself so much at
Stepping Stones. I wish more members of the Fellowship
would have your interest in our history. However... we
must temper historical fact with legend. Hey, I may be
totally off base...



> I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in
> Bedford Falls NY (just above NYC) where Bill and
> Lois lived from 1941 on.
> It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly
> interested in AA history.
>
> They have done a marvelous job of keeping it in
> exactly the same condition it was when Bill and lois
> lived there (Lois' glasses are where she left them
> in the kitchen).
>
> What a treasure trove of history!
>
> You can sit at the kitchen table that Ebby and Bill
> sat at in Clinton street when Bill pushed a drink
> over to him and Ebby announced " I got religion".
> You can stand in the living room where Marty Mann
> and Bill formed Council that would become the
> National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence .
> You can sit at the desk where Bill wrote the Big
> Book and the 12 and 12.
> You can see the map filled with stick pins where
> Bill measured the progress of new groups across the
> country.
> You can sit and gaze out the window that he looked
> out when contemplating how he would respond to the
> hundreds of questions
> coming in from all over the country about how to
> start a meeting etc.
>
> The best part - its largely undiscovered by the
> masses. You can get a quiet visit with a volunteer
> tour guide and take your time to savor each part.
>
> It is the most important collection of AA artifacts
> and history anywhere.
>
> I have been to East Dorset (birthplace, childhood
> home, gravesite)
> I have been to Akron. (Dr Bob's house, Mayflower
> Hotel)
> Bedford Falls is the Mother Lode.
>
> www.steppingstones.org
>
> they are having a big picnic on June 3 if you like a
> crowd,
> but I recommend you go when its quiet and no one
> else is there.
>
> Rob White
> Baltimore
> 410 328 8549
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3233 Tom Hickcox
Re: stepping stones stepping stones 3/6/2006 10:15:00 AM

At 14:51 3/1/2006 , Rob White wrote:

>I just got back from a visit to Stepping Stones in Bedford Falls NY (just
>above NYC) where Bill and Lois lived from 1941 on.
>It is well worth a visit from anyone even slightly interested in AA history.

I believe the name of the town is Bedford Hills.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3234 Sally Brown
Re: stepping stones stepping stones 3/7/2006 1:42:00 PM

Dave and I never heard that discussions about Marty's founding the National
Council on Alcoholism started at Stepping Stones. Wherever Marty and Bill
talked, whether at the AA office, over lunch, or out at Stepping Stones - or
all three - Marty certainly tossed around her plans with Bill and Lois since
Bill was her AA sponsor and she and the Wilsons were close personal friends.
However, we do know that he threw cold water on the whole idea, saying she
was unqualified for such a venture. She went ahead, anyway, since she was
being encouraged by other strong advisers, and besides was being driven by a
dream she had multiple gifts for fulfilling. Later, of course, Bill and Dr
Bob both joined her Advisory Board for a while. And as Marty's vision became
a successful reality over the decades, Bill changed his mind and
enthusiastically supported her efforts and achievements in dramatically
expanding AA's membership and influence as well as in educating our country
as a whole about alcoholism.

Marty's biography (see below) contains many hitherto unreported facts about
AA history. Dave and I tried hard to write only what could be verified and
attributed to sources. We are very grateful to other writers of AA and
recovery history before us who set high historical standards.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown coauthor: A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain The First Lady of Alcoholics
Anonymous
United Church of Christ

www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
1470 Sand Hill Road, 309
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net

0 -1 0 0
3235 mertonmm3
Re: stepping stones stepping stones 3/7/2006 7:22:00 PM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
>> Just a couple of points....
>
someone will have to
> fill me in if B&L stored the Clinton St. furniture or
> took it with them on all their moves.


Hi Mitch,

We are ever seeking the details. According to the diary they put the
furniture into storage when they left 182. Recall that they moved
directly into the Parkhurst 344 N. Fullerton, Montclair home from
there and for the next six or seven Sundays the regular meeting was
held there begining on May 14, 1939 if my memory is correct. At that
time there was only one meeting at most per night for the entire
Eastern United States. The meetings began at 4:00 and went most of the
night. They rotated speakers for the first portion according to Jim
Burwell who was probably living at Hank and Kathleen's home as well at
that time. They were mostly quite broke from the book which had just
arrived in final form the month before. However these were dinner
meetings with Herb T. paying for a "big spread". The wive's always
attended these along with their spouse's.

At that meeting they voted in the Bill and Lois Home replacement fund
and each pledged different amounts of which none of them paid more
than a few months. They wrote up a document with this information
which is in the GSO archives. Marty was still a Blythewood Sanatarium
patient and she took the train to the meeting from CT. to NJ. (Bill
and Lois were doing an errand when they voted this Home Replacement
Fund in - they arrived shortly thereafter and Lois wrote in her diary
that they were thrilled.

Very shortly thereafter Hank and Kathleen became estranged, probably
after Kathleen found out about his proposal to Ruth. Hank moved to
East Orange, 50 Beech St. I believe. His mail went to West Orange. By
June 21st Kathleen was moving out. And Lois helped her move her
furniture to a specifically named individuals house who I'd have to
look up. In her long diary entry that day she never said a word about
her own furniture.

Immediately they were offered the Green pond bungalow by the family of
Horace C. (note there was a Horace G. member too at that time.) His
family owned the mammouth international shipping firm of Moore
McCormick if I remember correctly. Green Pond was in the remote
wilderness and Lois loved it. The diary entries from that time, many
of which are in LR, are the longest and happiest of that first 5 year
period.

LR leaves you with the impression that when they left there shortly
thereafter it was for good. In fact, it was only rented for a very
short time and they lived there often during the next few years
gradually moving into the NYC clubhouse when that became an option.
Much time was spent with Bob and Mag V. at their farmhouse in Bog
Hollw near Monsey, NY. They both seemed more drawn to the country than
the city. SS is certainly that.

The Best to You and Your Wife Mitch,
-merton

0 -1 0 0
3236 rriley9945@aol.com
Stepping Stones, Bedford Hills Stepping Stones, Bedford Hills 3/7/2006 12:59:00 AM

From: Tommy H. in Baton Rouge, in Message 3233:

Stepping Stones is in Bedford Hills, not Bedford Falls.
______________________________

From: rriley9945@aol.com

For you movie fans, Bedford Falls is the name of the
town in the holiday classic It's a Wonderful Life
starring James Stewart.
______________________________

From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

The town is Bedford Hills, not Bedford Falls. The latter is the
mythical setting for the Jimmy Stewart classic movie, "It's a
Wonderful Life." Incidently, Bill and Lois' house is in Katonah,
not Bedford Hills. Kotonah is the next town. The postal addresses
must have changed since Bill lived there. I searched the streets of
Bedford Hills for an hour, looking for the house. It's not there.
I received a nice private tour from a staff member.

john lee
pittsburgh

0 -1 0 0
3237 Cloydg
Re: Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 3/7/2006 9:01:00 AM

In the AA Archives that's accessable over the Internet, Dr. Paul did an
interview. He explained where he was at that time in his life and how he felt
about his article, "Bronze Moccasins". Then he speaks about his story being
included into the BB under the title, "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict", and the
ensuing problems he encountered. My question is: Does the AA interview appear
to say that in his view, alcoholics can and do become dually addicted but
addicts seldom become alcoholic?" Also, did it appear to anyone else that he
was attempting to make an apology to AA for writing his article?

In love and service, Clyde G.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3238 Cheryl F
Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/7/2006 11:06:00 AM

I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program
referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of
context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that?

Grateful so I serve,

Cheryl F

0 -1 0 0
3239 ArtSheehan
RE: Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/7/2006 4:46:00 PM

Care should be exercised in defining the basis used for comparing
dollar amounts over time, particularly in considering the long-term
effects of inflation.

It is useful to convert past dollar amounts to show the equivalent
buying power in current dollars. This is easily accomplished by using
Consumer Price Index (CPI) conversion factors. CPI conversion data can
be obtained on-line from Professor Robert C Sahr, Political Science
Dept, Oregon State U, Corvalis

http://oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/cv2005.pdf

The "quantity" of past dollars amounts can erroneously be viewed as
the "value" of past dollar amounts. An amount expressed in 1940
dollars can erroneously be viewed as less expensive than 2005 dollars
when in fact the 1940 value is substantially more expensive.

Consider the $3.50 selling price of the Big Book when it was first
published in April 1939. $3.50 in 1939 dollars would be the equivalent
value of $49.30 in 2005 dollars. The Big Book was a rather expensive
book for its time. That's the reason it was printed on such large and
thick paper and got the name "Big Book" (the idea was to convince the
alcoholics that they were getting their money's worth).

The Summer/Fall 2005 catalog of Conference-approved literature shows
that a hard cover Big Book can be purchased for $6. You can also
erroneously conclude that this is almost twice the cost of what the
Big Book sold for in 1939. In fact the 2005 Big Book price actually
represents only 12% of what a Big Book sold for in 1939 (i.e. a nearly
90% price reduction).

As best as I can determine, groups and members were first asked to
make direct contributions to what is today GSO in March 1941 when Jack
Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article was published. The publicity
caused 1941 membership to jump from around 2,000 to 8,000. The article
led to over 6,000 appeals for help to be mailed to the NY Office to
handle. The NY office asked groups to donate $1 ($13.33 in 2005
dollars) per member, per year, for support of the office. This began
the practice of financing the NY office operations from group
donations (re the Service Manual, page S7).

Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking
members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition
collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there
are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be
left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be
for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small.
The same goes for each group trying to donate to their Central Office,
District, Area and GSO - just try to donate something no matter how
small (it does have a tendency to add up over time).

Cheers
Arthur

0 -1 0 0
3240 Carter Elliott
Bill W.''s 1966 Letter Bill W.''s 1966 Letter 3/8/2006 6:27:00 AM

As Bill Sees It contains thirty-one entries sourced to "Letter, 1966". Do we
know if this letter was a single, philosophical essay or letters collected from
his general correspondence?

Carter E.; Blacksburg BA

0 -1 0 0
3241 Glenn Chesnut
Moderator gone March 11-17 Moderator gone March 11-17 3/10/2006 12:15:00 PM

The moderator will not be available from Saturday March 11 to Friday March 17.
If you could hang onto your messages until the 17th, it would be greatly
appreciated.

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator
South Bend, Indiana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3242 JNP in Maine
Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/10/2006 12:09:00 PM

Hi,
Someone once told me that in a conversation with Dr Paul he stated that
acceptance was not the answefr and he had made that statement before he had
taken the steps as they were laid out in the Big Book

Joe Pet
Orono, Maine


Cheryl F <learning3legacies@cox.net> wrote:
I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program
referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of
context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that?

Grateful so I serve,

Cheryl F





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0 -1 0 0
3243 Azor521@aol.com
Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/10/2006 10:10:00 AM

In a message dated 3/10/06 8:49:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
learning3legacies@cox.net writes:

paragraph about acceptance


I met Dr. Paul O. at a speaker meeting in Modesto, CA @ 1993 and while we
were at dinner he made it clear he didn't get acceptance out of the blue. He
had to work for it and suggested we read his entire story to get the full
perspective of his life in recovery to that point.
He and his wife Max seemed like loving and caring people grateful for their
recovery.
Love & Huggs to all............ Floyd J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3244 Rob
Doctor Bob''s nightmare Doctor Bob''s nightmare 3/10/2006 3:32:00 PM

hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and
it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd
printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years
have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where
this changed? It would be most appreciated.

0 -1 0 0
3245 wilfried antheunis
Re: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/10/2006 2:19:00 PM

I will only quote part of the article in the July 1995 Grapevine:
GV: Is there anything you regret having written in your story?

Dr. Paul: Well, I must say I'm really surprised at the number of people who
come up to me and ask me confidentially if what they've heard on the very best
authority - usually from their sponsor - is true: that there are things in my
story I want to change, or that I regret having written it, or that I want to
take it out because it says so much about drugs, or that I've completely changed
my mind that AA is the answer or even that acceptance is the answer. I've also
heard - on the best authority. -that I've died or gotten drunk or on pills. The
latest one was that my wife Max died and that I got so depressed I got drunk.
So, is there anything I'd like to change? No. I believe what I said more now
than when I wrote it.

This was taken out of context- the whole article should be available in the
Grapevine digital archives.

wil



----- Original Message -----
From: Cheryl F
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O. on acceptance


I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program
referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of
context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that?

Grateful so I serve,

Cheryl F






Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3246 Charles Knapp
RE: Dr. Paul O. on acceptance Dr. Paul O. on acceptance 3/10/2006 8:42:00 PM

Hello Group

Living in Southern California I was able to listen to Dr Paul often. He
always spoke in my area at least 3 or 4 times a year. On several occasions
I Heard him say he thought there other things in his story that was just as
important as that one paragraph. For instance he thought the part about him
and his wife Max getting well together in AA was better than that paragraph.
Personally I like the next to the last paragraph which reads: "Acceptance
is the key to my relationship with God today. I never just sit and do
nothing while waiting for Him to tell me what to do. Rather, I do whatever
is in front of me to be done, and I leave the results up to Him; however it
turns out, that's Gods will for me." I believe of all the speakers I have
been able to listen to from So Cal over the past 15 years I miss hearing Dr
Paul the most.
Thanks

Charles from California




-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Cheryl F
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:07 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Paul O. on acceptance


I have heard that Dr. Paul O. did not like the idea of people in the program
referring to the one paragraph about acceptance because it was take out of
context. Does anyone know what he has actually said about that?

Grateful so I serve,

Cheryl F






Yahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3247 Arkie Koehl
Re: Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/10/2006 1:40:00 PM

My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to
participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket.
The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has forgone
collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become established.

Fiona D


On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote:

> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking
> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition
> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there
> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be
> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be
> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small.

Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from
treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there
is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are
sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put
nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected
to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the
state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource.

Arkie

0 -1 0 0
3248 Jon Markle
Re: Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/13/2006 7:16:00 PM

In meetings around here, I've noticed the chairperson stating that
newcomers, visitors and those currently in a hospital or treatment center
(in patient), need not contribute.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82


> From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com>
> Reply-To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:40:48 -1000
> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Price of things since 1935...
>
> My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was encouraged to
> participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket.
> The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings and has
> forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become
> established.
>
> Fiona D
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote:
>
>> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking
>> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition
>> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there
>> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be
>> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be
>> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small.
>
> Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from
> treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there
> is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are
> sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put
> nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected
> to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the
> state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource.
>
> Arkie
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3249 Tom Hickcox
Re: Doctor Bob''s nightmare Doctor Bob''s nightmare 3/13/2006 9:04:00 PM

At 14:32 3/10/2006 , Rob wrote:


>hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and
>it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd
>printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years
>have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where
>this changed? It would be most appreciated.

I checked my Third Editions and printings number 1 thru 8 state "six years"
and 9 on state "four years." This is on p. 180.

I checked several Second Editions and they all said "six years" as did the
two First Editions I have, but the statement was on p. 192 of the Firsts.

The question of why this change was effected was discussed at some point in
the recent past on our list. I remember reading it but am not confident
enough in my memory to quote and I can't find the post.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3250 Carolyn W
Re: Doctor Bob''s nightmare Doctor Bob''s nightmare 3/13/2006 10:34:00 PM

Mark,

I looked in my copy of the 3rd edition of the BB. and it says ' four years '.
Carol

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:32 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Doctor Bob's nightmare


hi everyone. I was reading Dr. Bob's nightmare in my 3rd edition and
it said As I write nearly six years have passed. This is in my 2nd
printing. I also have a 17th printing and it staes nearly four years
have passed as also does my fouth editions. Does anyone know where
this changed? It would be most appreciated.








SPONSORED LINKS Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction
recovery center
Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. Visit your group "AAHistoryLovers" on the web.

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0 -1 0 0
3251 wbmscm
Universal Mind Universal Mind 3/14/2006 8:30:00 AM

I hope this question is not beyond the purpose of this list, but

Got any info. on Bill using the term "Universal Mind" in his story.
The term caught my eye because it's capitalized. I searched the
archives and didn't come up with anything ( I may have missed it),
googled the term, with some success (seems origin may be from Hindu),
but any info. re: Bill using it would fulfill my curiousity.

Peace,
Wendy

0 -1 0 0
3252 Tom Hickcox
Re: Sauerkraut remedy Sauerkraut remedy 3/14/2006 4:51:00 PM

I recently revisited this as a result of picking up a pamphlet from Dr.
Bob's Home which had his last talk to the Cleveland A.A. Conference on July
30, 1950. It quotes him as saying "sauerkraut and cold meadow." This talk
is in the June '73 Grapevine. The September '73 GV addresses "cold meadow"
and concludes "And then one dear reader sent us a length of tape, much
better than ours, on which it all came out quite clearly, "sauerkraut and
cold tomatoes." This was confirmed by a second reader in a letter from
England."

Tommy in Baton Rouge

At 16:26 1/31/2006 , Peggy Anna wrote:

>I have a book written in 1993 by Don Julio DeMedici Santaleone, entitled
>"The James Connection or Sauerkraut, Tomatoes, and Karo Syrup" The author
>has been a member of AA for over 20 years now and lives in Rochester, New
>York. In his introduction he states "as related in Dr. Bob and the Good
>Oldtimers (p 74) a detoxification treatment of a combination of tomatoes,
>sauerkraut and Karo corn syrup was administered by Bill W. to Dr. Bob in
>order to supply Bob with vitamins and energy so that Bob could perform
>surgery".
>
>Peggy Anna
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rich Foss" <richfoss@adelphia.net>
>To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 12:13 PM
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Sauerkraut remedy
>
>
> >
> > An "old timer" in our fellowship is fond of using the Sauerkraut Juice
> > treatment when he finds a wet one. It may have something to do with
> > replacing electrolytes or something. He says it is mentioned in our
> > literature. But we cannot find it. Perhaps AA Comes of Age or Dr. Bob
> > and
> > the Old Timers? The force of his personality and his approach to AA's
> > simple program of recovery have helped a great number of people find a way
> > out. Just curious about the Sauerkraut.
> > Thanks.
> > Rich
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3253 J. Carey Thomas
"Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/15/2006 5:43:00 PM

Our Area has started a idea called "Stump the Archivist." The
four questions below have come from attendees at our Area business
weekends.
I have tried the search capability of our site, but have not
mastered its capabilities. Probably the answers to these *questions* are
there, but I could use some help...!
Here is the first batch of four questions we have been asked:

JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST

Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?

When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?

Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle?

When was the grapevine first published? In its present form?

I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even
some answers!
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------
Carey Thomas
Archivist, Area 15

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3254 Charlene C.
Re: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 3/15/2006 1:57:00 PM

it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual
terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was
considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness.

just a thought.
C. Cook


trixiebellaa <hayntra@aol.com> wrote:
hi history lovers,

Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been
a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol
on his brain?"

One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of
information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the
chapters at the beginning of the book.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks from Tracy
The Barking Big Book Study Group
England








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0 -1 0 0
3255 ckbudnick
William Y. "California Bill" take two William Y. "California Bill" take two 3/16/2006 12:18:00 AM

On February 7th I posted the following but have not received any
responses. I am hoping that someone has some information since the
following is listed as a significant event in AA history:

In Message 3129, "Significant February dates in A.A. History "
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3129
it says:

Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill"
dies in Winston Salem, NC.

Who was William Y. "California Bill" and what is his
significance in AA history?

Thanks.

Chris
Raleigh, NC

0 -1 0 0
3256 meb_nosix
Re: Price of things since 1935... Price of things since 1935... 3/16/2006 10:44:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Markle <serenitylodge@...>
wrote:
>
> In meetings around here, I've noticed the chairperson stating that
> newcomers, visitors and those currently in a hospital or treatment
center
> (in patient), need not contribute.
>
> Jon (Raleigh)
> 9/9/82
>
>
> > From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@...>
> > Reply-To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:40:48 -1000
> > To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Price of things since 1935...
> >
> > My personal experience has been that while in treatment I was
encouraged to
> > participate in AA meetings, including putting money in the basket.
> > The centre I went through provides rooms and encourages meetings
and has
> > forgone collecting rent so a meeting can get off the ground and become
> > established.
> >
> > Fiona D
> >
> >
> > On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:46, ArtSheehan wrote:
> >
> >> Several years ago some posters and flyers were distributed asking
> >> members to consider donating $2, instead of $1, in the 7th Tradition
> >> collections at meetings. I think this is a touchy issue since there
> >> are a number of members who just can't afford to do so. It should be
> >> left up to each member to decide for themselves. My appeal would be
> >> for each member to just try to donate something no matter how small.
> >
> > Is there, to anyone's knowledge, a protocol on donations from
> > treatment center in-patients sent to AA meetings? I'm guessing there
> > is no right way to handle the awkward fact that so many patients are
> > sent to our meetings by profit-making treatment centers yet put
> > nothing in the basket. Of course the patient should not be expected
> > to contribute, but the "provider" is charging the patient or the
> > state money for the treatment and using AA as a free resource.
> >
> > Arkie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Not sure where these meetings are that you talk about but agree that
those interested ina solution should listen to those that are able to
offer one. Step 2 "Came to beleive that a power greater than ourselves
could restore us to sanity" clearly states that we are insane till we
have the essential personality change brought on by folowing the
steps. Those not working the steps or new to the program are in no
position to offer anything but the a deluded view of reality that has
landed them there in the first place. I've been to many meetings while
in early recovery and found til i completed the steps exactly as
outlined in the big book i had no idea what i was talking about and
basically stayed in the problem. Those interested in a solution and
sick of living in the problem will be the ones that are happy to
listen. God bless.

0 -1 0 0
3257 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Are any AAHL''s going to Ireland Are any AAHL''s going to Ireland 3/16/2006 12:00:00 PM

The 60th Anniversary of AA in Ireland will be celebrated in Cork Ireland
next month at the All Ireland convention. Do any AAHL members plan to attend?
Are there any AAHL members in Ireland besides Fiona D., who has most graciously
agreed to show us County Mayo and the birthplace of Sister Ignatia ?
also,
There will be a closed meeting of the Archives Committee in
Philadelphia, Pa at 444 N.3rd St 3rd floor at 1 PM on Saturday 3/18/06. We will
play a
videotape of Conor F (the man who took AA to Ireland/ Europe and Dr. Moore (
who provides Conor with Richard P.) the 1st man sober in Ireland. Because it is
a videotape from 1982 it will be a closed meeting(for alcoholics only)
The statement of anonymity will be read at the meeting
Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3258 David Jones
RE: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 3/16/2006 5:04:00 PM

I don’t know whether you would consider this, it is just opinion and I have
no evidence to back it up.

But, Bill’s use of recent historical events as part of his argument, such as
the Titanic when it comes to the part ‘we are like passengers of a great
liner’.

Would suggest that recent social/historical events were maybe in his mind,
this said, then an employer may look on an alcoholic as a liability and not
worth the investment in salvaging. Given that in recent memory the US has
had a depression no shortage of willing workers; and the prohibition a moral
judgment and one that may have increased in some way the numbers of
alcoholics.

Then the second world war intervened and ended the employment problem and
gave the country a focus and unity.

My question would be; how were employers inclined to think post war rather
than pre war.



God bless

Dave





it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in
intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when
alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or
terminal illness.

just a thought.
C. Cook


trixiebellaa <hayntra@aol.com> wrote:
hi history lovers,

Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been
a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol
on his brain?"

One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of
information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the
chapters at the beginning of the book.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks from Tracy
The Barking Big Book Study Group
England








SPONSORED LINKS
Addiction recovery program Recovery from addiction Addiction
recovery center Christian addiction recovery Alcoholics anonymous

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0 -1 0 0
3259 t
RE: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/17/2006 12:53:00 AM

> JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST
>
> Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?
seems like somewhere I've read something like "Usually, however, other people
are
involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would
needlessly sacrifice others ..."
So I'll let those who might choose to take Bill's inventory also consider making
his
amends. [isn't it odd how often we run across those willing to take someone
else's
inventory, but how seldom those same folks volunteer to do the amends steps?]

>
> When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?
Sister Ignatia was reportedly in the habit of giving out Sacred Heart tokens to
those
who 'graduated treatment' at St Thomas Hospital in Akron.
As early as Jan 1947, in the Grapevine's "AA Country Wide News Circuit" column,
it is
noted that the Elmira, N. Y. Group used white-red-and-blue poker chips to note
lengths of continuous sobriety.
In May 1947, that same column mentions Tacoma Wash using
white-yellow-red-and-blue
chips.
In Aug 1947, that column again mentions the use of a blue chip by the North
Hollywood, Cal group.
A later, 1955, article "In the Chips" noted the practice in Charlotte, NC with
white-red-amber-green-and-blue chips.

>
> Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle?
"Where" is on most all AAWS literature published, "when" would be from the 50's
till
1993.

>
> When was the grapevine first published? In its present form?
The first [oversized] issue is dated June 1944,
then it was 'downsized' to it's present dimensions in Sept 1948.

>
> I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even
> some answers!

0 -1 0 0
3260 James Blair
Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/16/2006 8:01:00 PM

JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST

Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?

Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history.

When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?

Chips, Medallions and Birthdays





The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of
the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the
history on them.



Sister lgnatia, the nun who helped Dr. Bob get the hospitalization program
started

at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron was the first person to use medallions in
Alcoholics

Anonymous. She gave the drunks who were leaving St. Thomas after a five day
dry out a Sacred Heart Medallion and instructed them that the acceptance of
the medallion signified a commitment to God, to A.A. and to recovery and
that if they were going to drink, they had a responsibility to return the
medallion to her before drinking.



The sacred heart badges had been used prior to A.A. by the Father Matthew
Temperance Movement of the 1840s and the Pioneers an Irish Temperance
Movement of the 1890s.



The practice of sobriety chips in A.A. started with a Group in Elmira, N.Y.
in 1947 and has grown from there.



The celebration of birthdays came from the Oxford Group where they
celebrated the anniversary of their spiritual rebirth. As we have a problem
with honesty, A.A. chose the anniversary of the date of our last drink.



Early celebrations of birthdays resulted in people getting drunk and Dr.
Harry Tiebout was asked to look at the problem and he commented on this
phenomenon in an articled titled "When the Big "I" Becomes Nobody", (AAGV,
Sept. 65)



"Early on in A.A., I was consulted about a serious problem plaguing the
local group. The practice of celebrating a year's sobriety with a birthday
cake had resulted in a certain number of the members getting drunk within a
short period after the celebration. It seemed apparent that some could not
stand prosperity. I was asked to settle between birthday cakes or no
birthday cakes. Characteristically, I begged off, not from shyness but from
ignorance. Some three or four years later, A.A. furnished me the answer. The
group no longer had such a problem because, as one member said, "We
celebrate still, but a year's sobriety is now a dime a dozen. No one gets
much of a kick out of that anymore."



The AAGV carried many articles on chips and cakes and the following is a
brief summary of some.



Feb. 1948, Why All the Congratulations? "When we start taking bows (even on
anniversaries) we bow ourselves right into the cuspidor."



July, 1948. Group To Give Oscar for Anniversaries.

The Larchmont Group of Larchmont, N.Y. gives a cast bronze camel mounted on
a mahogany base to celebrate 1st., 5th and 10th anniversaries.

"The camel is wholly emblematic of the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e.,
to live for 24 hours without a drink."



August 1948. The Artesta, N.Mex. Group awards marbles to all members. If you
are caught without your marbles, you are fined 25 cents. This money goes
into the Foundation Fund.



June 1953, We operate a poker chip club in the Portland Group (Maine). We
have poker chips of nine colors of which the white represents the probation
period of one month. If he keeps his white chip for one month he is
presented with a red chip for one month's sobriety.

The chips continue with blue for two months, black for three, green for
four, transparent blue for five, amber for six, transparent purple for nine
months and a transparent clear chip for one year. We have our chips stamped
with gold A.A. letters.

Also at the end of the year and each year thereafter, we present them with a
group birthday card signed by all members present at the meeting.



January 1955, Charlotte, N.C. "When a man takes "The Long Walk" at the end
of a meeting, to pick up a white chip, he is admitting to his fellow men
that he has finally accepted the precepts of A.A. and is beginning his
sobriety. At the end of three months he exchanges his white chip for a red
one. Later, a handsome, translucent chip of amber indicates that this new
member has enjoyed six months of a new way of life. The nine month chip is a
clear seagreen and a blue chip is given for the first year of sobriety. In
some groups a sponsor will present his friend with an engraved silver chip,
at the end of five years clear thinking and clean living.



March 1956, The One Ton Poker Chip. Alton, Illinois. Author gave friend a
chip on his first day eight years ago (1948) and told him to accept it in
the spirit of group membership and that if he wanted to drink to throw the
chip away before starting drinking.



October 1956, Bangor Washington. Article about a woman who sits in a bar to
drink the bartender sees her white chips and asks what it is. She tells him.
He throws her out as he does not want an alcoholic in his bar. She calls
friend.



April 1957, Cape Cod, Mass. Group recognizes 1st, 5th and 15th
anniversaries. Person celebrating leads meeting. Person is presented with a
set of wooden carved plaques with the slogans.



July 1957, New Brunswick, Canada. Birthday Board. Member contributes one
dollar for each year of sobriety





July 1957, Oregon. Person is asked to speak and is introduced by his or her
sponsor. The wife, mother, sister or other relative brings up a cake. The
Group sings Happy Birthday. The wife gives a two or thee minute talk.



April 1959, Patterson, N.J. People are asked to give "three month pin
talks."



And that's a little bit of info on chips, cakes and medallions.



Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle?

It was introduced at the 20th Anniversary convention in St. Louis and
registered as a trade mark in 1955.

Bill had seen it during a visit to Norway and brought the idea back to the
U.S. We have the symbols on the floor of one of the subway stations in
Montreal.

When was the grapevine first published? In its present form?

The first issue of the GV was June 1944 in the form of a newspaper and it
was 11X17 and 8 pages. It grew to 16 pages.

In Spetember 1948 it was reduced to the present size.

I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or even
some answers!

0 -1 0 0
3261 ArtSheehan
RE: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/17/2006 12:18:00 PM

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Carey Thomas
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:43 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "Stump the Archivist"

Our Area has started a idea called "Stump the Archivist." The
four questions below have come from attendees at our Area business
weekends.

I have tried the search capability of our site, but have not
mastered its capabilities. Probably the answers to these *questions*
are there, but I could use some help...!

Here is the first batch of four questions we have been asked:

JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST

To Area 15
From Area 65

Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?

Bill W's mistress, Helen W, lived in New York at the time of their 15
year affair. Helen supposedly bought a home in Pleasantville, NY. She
also became a Grapevine editor. Bill changed his will and royalty
agreement with AA to make Helen the beneficiary of 10% of his
royalties after he passed away. The most detailed information on her
can be found in the book "Bill W' by Francis Hartigan.

When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?

Don't know. There would likely be too many locations claiming primacy
on the matter to factually determine the matter conclusively. Sister
Ignatia should be credited with starting the practice of giving
alcoholics a sobriety token. She handed out Sacred Heart Badges to
alcoholic patients leaving St Thomas Hospital in Akron, OH on the
condition that they would return the badge to her prior to taking a
first drink. See the book Sister Ignatia by Mary C Darrah.

Where did AA come to use the circle and triangle?

The logo first appeared on a large banner at AA's 2nd International
Convention, and 10th Anniversary, in Kiel Auditorium, St Louis, MO,
July 1-3, 1955. See "AA Comes of Age" pgs 49 and 139.

When was the grapevine first published? In its present form?

The August 1948 Grapevine announced that beginning September 1948, its
format would be 5 1/2 x 7 1/2 inches and it would contain 32 pages.
The change was based on a vote of subscribers. Early covers were kept
simple, usually consisting of a grapevine sprig and a color
background.

Cheers
Arthur

I would apppreciate any direction you might suggest,. . . or
even some answers!
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-----------carey----------
Carey Thomas
Archivist, Area 15

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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0 -1 0 0
3262 Jim Lynch
Re: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 3/17/2006 9:34:00 AM

The authors of our basic text make it clear earlier in the paragraph on page 140
that they have described fully the nature of the illness in chapters two and
three, and suggest that the employer look there "If this presents difficulty,".
The series of questions, of which the "crooked thinking" one is the final
question, begins with the phrase, "If you concede that your employee is ill".

I do not see anything new in this paragraph, rather it is restating some of the
information from chapter 2 and 3 in different language. The chapter is written
to help the employer see that "you may be suffering from an illness that only a
spiritual experience will conquer."

Jim
an ex-problem drinker in Pittsburgh

----- Original Message ----
From: Charlene C. <ccp28para4@yahoo.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:57:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking

it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in intellectual
terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that time, when alcoholism was
considered more of a moral dilema than a spiritual mallody or terminal illness.

just a thought.
C. Cook


trixiebellaa <hayntra@aol.com> wrote:
hi history lovers,

Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has been
a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol
on his brain?"

One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of
information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the
chapters at the beginning of the book.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks from Tracy
The Barking Big Book Study Group
England








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0 -1 0 0
3263 ArtSheehan
RE: Crooked thinking Crooked thinking 3/17/2006 11:43:00 AM

Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just the first
paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter.

I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written in the manner or
with the intent that is often presumed in analyzing it (perhaps
over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting it).

The member who asked the question is using a form of reasoning that
appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical gymnastics. It does
little more than open the door to what can be an endless amount of
speculation that serves more to distract rather than inform.

Many Big Book chapters have a specific target audience (usually
denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's employers.

The underlying assumption that the importance of a sentence is somehow
enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an early or later part of
the book is a flawed assumption being treated as fact.

The most popular, and perhaps important, portion of the Big Book, read
at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How It Works." Trust me,
there is no need to move this chapter further toward the beginning of
the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on its own content as
do all the other chapters.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlene C.
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking

it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in
intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that
time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a
spiritual mallody or terminal illness.

just a thought.
C. Cook


trixiebellaa <hayntra@aol.com> wrote:
hi history lovers,

Page 140 of To Employers says: "Can it be appreciated that he has
been
a victim of crooked thinking, directly caused by the action of alcohol

on his brain?"

One of our members asked why would Bill put such an important piece of

information in the chapter to employers,instead of perhaps one of the
chapters at the beginning of the book.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks from Tracy
The Barking Big Book Study Group
England








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0 -1 0 0
3264 sbanker914@aol.com
Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/17/2006 5:29:00 AM

In a message dated 3/16/2006 4:34:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, jct3@juno.com
writes:
Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?
I found the following from Nan Robertson's book:

. . . quotes Nan Robertson, author of Getting Better: Inside Alcoholics
Anonymous (1988), as follows:

"Particularly during his sober decades in AA in the forties, fifties, and
sixties, Bill Wilson was a compulsive womanizer. His flirtations and his
adulterous behavior filled him with guilt, but he continued to stray off the
reservation. His last and most serious love affair . . . began when he was in
his
sixties. She was important to him until the end of his life, and was remembered
in
a financial agreement with AA. (p. 36)"

This last mistress, Helen W., actually received 1.5% of the royalties from
the Big Book after Bill’s death. As for Bill’s wife, Lois, "she never
mentioned
his philandering," writes Robertson in this history of AA’s founders.

Susan Banker
NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3265 David A Putnam
There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me 3/17/2006 8:01:00 PM

In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned
Heat and Shoe Polish.

I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem
me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is?

Thanks,

Dave P
Westmont Illinois
Monday Night Big Book Meeting

0 -1 0 0
3266 Lee Nickerson
medallions medallions 3/18/2006 10:11:00 AM

In a taped interview with Jimmy D. (Sober since 1947, died 1999) of
Portland, Maine, he told me that Arthur W. gave out medallions to his
pigeons. He apparently started this practice in 1946 after the
Portland Group (still going) got started. Jimmy donated his medallions
to the archives. Arthur got these from a company called Bright Star
Press which at the time was in Illinois and I believe moved to Texas.
I am not saying that the practice of medallions started here, just
that this is the earliest I have heard of it in Maine. I also had an
old timer tell me that they used to give out nickels to make phone
calls.
lee

0 -1 0 0
3267 Tom Hickcox
Re: "Stump the Archivist" "Stump the Archivist" 3/17/2006 10:55:00 PM

At 19:01 3/16/2006 , James Blair wrote:



> JANUARY 2006 STUMP THE ARCHIVIST
>
> Did Bill Wilson have a mistress who lived in Miami?
>
>Who he bonked or didn't bonk has nothing to do with AA history.
>
> When and where did the poker chip tradition start for the groups?
>
>Chips, Medallions and Birthdays
>
>
>
>
>
>The traditions of chips, medallions and birthdays vary in different parts of
>the country and I thought it would be interesting to look up some of the
>history on them.
>

Neither do the traditions of chips, medallions, and
birthdays/anniversaries. They are local traditions and not part of A.A.

Tommy in Baton Rouge


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3268 Joe Nugent
RE: There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me There'' s Nothing The Matter With Me 3/18/2006 3:48:00 PM

"Bayzo" was a term first used during prohibition to describe someone who
drank bay rum, because of its high alcohol content.

Bay rum was used as an aftershave, and has that distinctive old school
smell.


_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David A Putnam
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:02 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] There' s Nothing The Matter With Me


In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo, Canned
Heat and Shoe Polish.

I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone enlightem
me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is?

Thanks,

Dave P
Westmont Illinois
Monday Night Big Book Meeting








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0 -1 0 0
3269 prpllady51
Sneaky Pete and Bayzo Sneaky Pete and Bayzo 3/18/2006 4:04:00 PM

Sneaky Pete was slang for a pint bottle of cheap muscatel with grain
alcohol added to pump up the proof to 40. It cost around 35 cents
and was a flat bottle, which would fit in one's back pocket.

Bayzo was the slang for Bay Rum. Bay rum was used as an aftershave.


Jocelyn
Parkway West
Pittsburgh PA


David A Putnam <Dputnam@interaccess.Com> wrote:
In this story we read that the author drink "Sneaky Pete, Bayzo,
Canned
Heat and Shoe Polish.

I know what canned heat and shoe polish is, but can someone
enlightem
me as to what Sneaky Pete and Bayzo is?

Thanks,

Dave P
Westmont Illinois
Monday Night Big Book Meeting

0 -1 0 0
3270 James Blair
Re: medallions medallions 3/18/2006 8:09:00 PM

Lee wrote
He apparently started this practice in 1946 after the
Portland Group (still going) got started. Jimmy donated his medallions to
the archives. Arthur got these from a company called Bright Star Press
which at the time was in Illinois and I believe moved to Texas.

Brigh Star's web site claims that they went into business in 1950.
Jim

0 -1 0 0
3271 Carter Elliott
Re: Stump the Archivists Stump the Archivists 3/18/2006 8:28:00 PM

As Bill Sees It contains thirty-one entries sourced to "Letter, 1966". Do we
know if this letter was a single, philosophical essay or letters collected from
his general correspondence?

Carter E., Blacksburg, VA


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0 -1 0 0
3272 johnlawlee
Re: authorship of Chapter 10 authorship of Chapter 10 3/18/2006 12:28:00 PM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@...>
wrote:
>
> Bill didn't write the chapter "To Employers" (just the first
> paragraph). Hank P wrote the chapter.
>
> I don't get a sense that the Big Book was written in the manner or
> with the intent that is often presumed in analyzing it (perhaps
> over-analyzing it might be a better way of putting it).
>
> The member who asked the question is using a form of reasoning that
> appears sincere, but flawed in its analytical gymnastics. It does
> little more than open the door to what can be an endless amount of
> speculation that serves more to distract rather than inform.
>
> Many Big Book chapters have a specific target audience (usually
> denoted in the chapter titles). In this case it's employers.
>
> The underlying assumption that the importance of a sentence is
somehow
> enhanced or diminished by its appearance in an early or later part
of
> the book is a flawed assumption being treated as fact.
>
> The most popular, and perhaps important, portion of the Big Book,
read
> at many meetings comes from its 5th chapter "How It Works." Trust
me,
> there is no need to move this chapter further toward the beginning
of
> the book to emphasize its importance. It stands on its own content
as
> do all the other chapters.
>
> Cheers
> Arthur
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlene C.
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 12:57 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Crooked thinking
>
> it would be my guess that employers are more inclined to think in
> intellectual terms than medical or spiritual. especially in that
> time, when alcoholism was considered more of a moral dilema than a
> spiritual mallody or terminal illness.
>
> just a thought.
> C. Cook
>
> Hank Parkhurst is generally cited as the author of
"To Employers" [Chapter 10 of Big Book]. I've always found that hard
to believe, based on the contrast between the divergent styles of
Chapter 10 and Hank's story in the First Edition. Hank's story, "The
Unbeliever" is choppy, almost manic. It's filled with
elipses,exclamations, etc. I