tblYgr_AAHistoryLovers
YahooMessageID From FromEmail Subject SubjectSrt RecDate Message AttCount NewMsgFlag DelMsgFlag FavMsgFlag
3976 Chuck David
Re: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions 12/30/2006 2:09:00 AM


The video "Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions"

is available from GSO (VS-20). It is in the

current catalog in the AV material section

catalog number (VS-20) a 1/2 in VHS video price

$15.00. ** Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions

-- Bill W. tells how the principles safeguarding

AA unity developed. 60 minutes.



I own a copy of this video and have dubed it

to DVD to save it for future use. My VCR only

works intermittantly and find that DVD format

is the way to go...



I have noticed that many of the AV materials

GSO offers are on VHS format. Even at a recent

Area meeting there was extensive discussion on

producing materials in DVD format vice VHS

format... .I believe it was the ASL signing of

the Big Book which is available however excludes

most of the stories from the back of the book.



You may contact GSO to receive a catalog of

materials available their number is 1-212-870-3312

/ this is also the order number if you decide

to order the VHS tape.



Hope this was helpful.







C h u c k D a v i d

cuzimacowboy2@yahoo.com

Litrature & GV rep

Oak Harbor Group

Oak Harbor, WA



- - - - - - -



Thanks to all, we got the same information

from a number of our members:



"Bent Christensen" <bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>

(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)



"Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>

(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)



alan dobson <dobbo101@yahoo.com>

(dobbo101 at yahoo.com)



Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>

(barefootbill at optonline.net)

"momaria33772" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>

(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)



Gary Rohde <feelgoodcp@yahoo.com>

(feelgoodcp at yahoo.com)



ROGER WHEATLEY <chief_roger@yahoo.com>

(chief_roger at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
3977 Arthur Sheehan
RE: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions 12/30/2006 6:33:00 AM


The VHS tape is Conference-approved service

material. You can purchase it directly from AAWS

in NY or through your local Intergroup Central

Office. It is item number (VS-20) and costs $15.



It might better be called "Bill Discusses Ten of

the Twelve Traditions." He got a little pressed

for time near the end and had to skip two of

them.



There are two other VHS tapes that you might

be interested in: "Bill's Own Story" (VS-21 - $15)

and "Markings on the Journey" (M-57 - $16) which

is an hour history of AA.



All three items are designated as "confidential

and available to AA members only." The catalog

asks you to order through your group. If you

know your group's service number then you can

order it directly by:



Phone: 1-212-870-3312 Order Entry Dep't)

Fax: 1-212-870-3137 or 1-800-437-3584

Mail: AAWS, PO Box 459, Grand Central Station, NY, NY 10163

Email: orders@aa.org



Call the Order Entry Dep't for assistance. They

are very friendly and helpful.



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
3978 chesbayman56
Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 1/1/2007 2:33:00 PM


Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking.

Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.

Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of

"Alcoholics Anonymous".

Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression.

Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA.

Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan

Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob.

Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety".

Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus,

Ohio Central Group.

Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland.

Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded.

Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan.

Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get

away from the Oxford Group atmosphere".

Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years

sober.

Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics

Anonymous, died.

Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group.

Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School,

Akron, Ohio.

Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years

dies.

Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician

Heal Thyself" died.

Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC.

Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri.

Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto.

Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in

Oct 24 1943.

Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in

his sleep.

Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in

Pennington, New Jersey.

Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.

Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church

in

Brookyn Heights.

Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis

Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL.

Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley.

Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1.

Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus

Contra

Spiritum".

End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for

comment, evaluation and sale.


0 -1 0 0
3979 spebsqsa@att.net
Not AA Number Three Not AA Number Three 1/1/2007 9:54:00 PM


Bill W and Dr Bob worked with two other

alcoholics in 1935 before succeeding with

Bill Dotson who became AA Number Three.

There was a Dr McKay and then Edgar (Eddie)

Reilly. Where do those two fit in this

timeline?



May 11 -- Bill W calls Reverend Tunks.

May 12 -- Mothers Day. Bill W and Dr Bob meet.

June 10 -- Dr Bob's last drink.

June 17 -- (other possible last drink date)

June 26 -- Bill D enters Akron's City Hospital.

June 28 -- Bill W and Dr Bob visit Bill D.



That isn't even seven weeks and Dr Bob was away

getting drunk at a medical conference part of

that time. When did they work with the other two

unsuccessful AA #3 candidates? Was either around

at the time of Bob's slip? Did either of them

visit Bill D in the hospital. Did Bill D help

during Eddie's slippery period?



If Dr Bob and Bill worked with Eddie "throughout

the summer," then he must have been around for

a while after Bill D became part of the group.

It would be interestig to know the full sequence.


0 -1 0 0
3980 Glenn Chesnut
Emmet Fox''s secretary''s connection to early AA Emmet Fox''s secretary''s connection to early AA 12/31/2006 5:26:00 PM


The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox

contains the following sentence:



"Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the

men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous

co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result

of this connection early AA groups often went

to hear Fox."



If this statement is correct, can anyone in

our web group give me this man's name?



Glenn Chesnut, South Bend



P.S. It is well known to AA historians that in

New York, "early AA groups often went to hear

Fox." It is not that, but the first part of that

sentence in the wikipedia article that I would

like to know more about.


0 -1 0 0
3981 Susie Dixon
United Kingdom GSO: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions United Kingdom GSO: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions 12/30/2006 4:34:00 PM


Hi everyone



I got my copy of the DVD from GSO in UK.



Hope this helps. I presume GSO USA have copies.



All good wishes to everyone for 2007



Susie D in the UK


0 -1 0 0
3982 John Blair
Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 12/31/2006 2:41:00 PM


Regarding Glenn's reply about St, Monica,

other patron saints of alcoholism include John

of God, Martin of Tours, Matthias the Apostle,

and Unban of Langres. Others were recognized

as saints in part through their work with

alcoholics.



Perhaps the most notable person today who is in

process of being recognized a saint is the

Venerable Matt Talbot (1856-1925) of Dublin,

Ireland. A few books look at his recovery journey

in light of the twelve steps.



The patron saint of hangovers is St. Bibiana

(Vivian) who lived in 4th century Rome. She

is also the patron saint of the Diocese of

Los Angeles.



John Blair


0 -1 0 0
3983 Bill Lash
Jack Norris'' Talk at Bill W.''s Funeral (1971) Jack Norris'' Talk at Bill W.''s Funeral (1971) 1/1/2007 8:30:00 AM


DR. JACK NORRIS' TALK

MEMORIAL SERVICES for BILL WILSON

NEW YORK, N.Y. FEB. 14TH, 1971



Our beloved Bill is dead. Even as I stand before

you and say the words, I cannot really believe

that it is true. In my heart I choose to believe

that Bill is here with us at this very moment.

And I somehow can almost hear him saying in that

half-amused, half embarrassed way of his, "Oh

come on now Jack, do you really think all this

fuss is necessary?"



Two weeks ago, at a meeting of your Board of

Trustees, shortly after Bill's passing, there

was a rather lively discussion about a matter

involving the whole fellowship. When it had

reached a certain level of intensity, I found

myself waiting to hear Bill speak up, as he so

often did and say those few words that would

put everything in perspective. But he didn't

speak. And it was then that I realized way down

deep that we would never hear his voice again

... that we could no longer count on the constant

presence of his wisdom and strength. We could

never again say as we had said so many times

before, "Bill, what do you think?" And I at

least, have not yet come to accept this

completely.



Bill was no saint. He was an alcoholic and a

man of stubborn will and purpose. How else could

he have lived through the years of frustration,

failure, and discouragement while the steps, the

traditions, and the conference were being hammered

out on the anvil of hard experience with the

first few groups? That he had the self-honesty,

the clarity of vision to see the vital necessity

for the Third Step, and turning one's life and

will over to a Higher Power is just one part of

our great good fortune that Bill lived. I have

seen Bill's pride and I have seen his humility.

And I have been present when people from far

countries have met him for the first time and

started to cry. And all Bill - that shy Vermonter

- could do was stand there and look like he

wanted to run from the room. No, Bill was no

saint, although many of us wanted to make him

into one. Knowing this, he was insistent that

legends about him be kept to a minimum - that

accurate records be kept so that future

generations would know him as a man. He was a

very human person -- to me an exceptionally human

person.



Bill's constant concern during almost all of

the years that I knew him was that Alcoholics

Anonymous should always be available for the

suffering alcoholic--that the mistakes that led

to the fading of previous movements to help

alcoholics should be avoided. To me one measure

of his greatness is the clarity of his vision

of the future in his determination to let go

of us long before we were willing to let go of

him.



Bill was a good sponsor, - the wise old timer

determined to relinquish the role of founder

because he knew that A.A. must, as he would say,

come of age and take complete responsibility

for itself. He had an abiding faith that our

Fellowship not only could, but should run without

him. Repeatedly, during the last few years, he

has said in General Service Conference sessions

"We have nothing to fear." Bill believed that

the wisdom of A.A. came out of church basements

and not from the pulpit; that it was directed

from the groups to the Trustees rather than the

other way around. He sometimes felt, though,

when the Conference disagreed with him as it

sometimes did, that its conscience needed to be

better informed, but it was this way that we

really shared experience and developed strength

and confidence that the answers would work out.



Bill knew that it was not one voice that should

be heard, but many thousands of voices. And it

was his gift that he was able to listen to them

all, then, out of the noise and confusion discern

the group conscience. Then he would put it all

together, the tension of argument would fade,

and everyone would realize that his answer was

right. What Bill's death means to me now is,

that all of us--all of us: you, the delegates,

the Trustees--will have to listen much more

carefully than we once did in order to make out

the voice of the group conscience.



And I know that this is possible. Bill has trained

us for it beginning in St. Louis in 1955. For

this was Bill's vision -- to create a channel

of communication within the Fellowship of

Alcoholics Anonymous that would make it possible

for everyone to be hear: from the individual

through the group, to the delegates and to the

Trustees, so that A.A. will always be here to

extend a hand to the drunk who is at this very

moment crying out in the darkness of his night

as he reaches for help.



In closing, I want to say that it has been an

honor for me to have had this opportunity to

participate with you in giving thanks to God

that Bill lived and was given the wisdom and

strength and courage to make the world a better

place for all of us. There are many more things

I could say, but what can one say finally of a

man's goodness and greatness? How many ways

can you take his measure? I cannot do it or say

it for any of you -- only for myself. He was

the greatest and wisest man I ever knew. Above

everything, he was a man. And I believe that he

left his goodness and greatness and wisdom with

us, for any of us to take in what measure we can.

May God grant us the wisdom and strength to keep

Alcoholics Anonymous alive, vital, attractive,

unencumbered by the egocentricities that can so

easily spoil it.


0 -1 0 0
3984 Mel Barger
Re: The "attack" was by Jerome E., not Barry L. The "attack" was by Jerome E., not Barry L. 12/30/2006 10:05:00 AM


Hi Ernie,



Jerome Ellison was a regular contributor to

The Saturday Evening Post and may have offered

his article to them. But he did publish one in

The Nation in 1964 and the title might have been

"Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?" He actually

called me for a piece of information while he

was writing the article, but he got it wrong

when it was published. The matter in question

concerned AA in southern Michigan and he somehow

converted it to AA in the South!



Jerry was upset with AA leadership because he

had been fired as editor of the Grapevine after

a short stay there. Bill took on the duty of

firing him, since Bill had recommended him for

the job. Jerry was an excellent writer and

editor but he had trouble getting along with

people at work I met him at the Grapevine

offices while he was there and was very much

impressed by his background. He was a University

of Michigan graduate and had been a close college

friend of one of our AAs in Jackson, Michigan.



The Saturday Evening Post did run a nasty

article in the Sept. 19, 1964, issue by Arthur

Cain, the same man who had written "Alcoholics

Anonymous---Cult or Cure?" for the February

1963 Harper's Magazine. Cain wrote Bill a

letter of apology for the Saturday Evening

Post article and blamed its nastiness on the

editors. Bill, though usually very kind to

critics, did not cut him much slack in replying

to Cain's apology.



We will have to get together soon with

Kathleen and Father Dave; both have mentioned

it to me. As I told you, Kathleen has been able

to publish a few items to help her in her quest

for tenure at UT.



Happy New Year to you and Linda, Ernie. I am

grateful for your friendship and all the help

and encouragement you've givien me the past

twenty-seven years.



Mel



Mel Barger / melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


0 -1 0 0
3985 Bob McK.
RE: How to take Akron tour? How to take Akron tour? 12/30/2006 9:25:00 AM


I would suggest stopping first at the Akron

Intergroup Office, 775 N. Main St., Akron, Ohio

44310, to view their fantastic history display

in timeline order, and get maps. They are open

9-5 weekdays and 9-1 on Saturday, other

arrangements may be possible. You can see part

of that here:



http://akronaa.org/Archives/tour/tour2.html



Some other questions can be answered by calling

them: 330/253-8181



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



From: Jocelyn <prpllady51@yahoo.com>

(prpllady51 at yahoo.com)



Telephone:

Intergroup Office: (330) 253-8181

Toll free (in Ohio): 1-800-897-6737

Fax: (330) 253-8292



Dr. Bob's House is open Noon to 3pm every day

except Christmas. Also the home next door

serves as a museum for AA pictures and all sorts

of artifacts.



The cemetery where Dr Bob is buried is a short

drive from the house. When we were at Dr Bob's

House they had a map of the area with directions

to the various sites of interest.



The Mayflower Hotel is now a personal care home

but they have kept the Lobby intact. If you

tell the people at the home that you are a

"friend of Bill W's" and would like to see the

lobby you can get access.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



From: "Jayaa82@earthlink.net"

<Jayaa82@earthlink.net>

(Jayaa82 at earthlink.net)



I am a volunteer at the Akron Archives located

in the Akron Intergroup office. (775 N Main St,

Akron 44310)



That would be a great place to start, with

enough advance notice the archivist can meet

you there and give you a tour of the archives,

and we have maps to get you to Dr Bob's, the

gatehouse, Mayflower, Dr. Bob's grave, etc.



Call the office for info, they will be glad

to help (330) 253-8181



Jay Moore



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



From: "mchugh1652" <mchugh1652@ameritech.net>

(mchugh1652 at ameritech.net)



http://www.akronaa.org/ The Akron Intergroup

Office website. There used to be a map and

tour information on it but I can't find it

right now. We also used to have volunteeers

who could lead groups on a tour but I'm not sure

of the status of that service at this point

either.



Woody W could probably fill you in on both

items or you can certainly call the office

330-253-8181. If you have any questions I'd

be glad to help, you can reply to my email

address:



<mchugh1652@ameritech.net>

(mchugh1652 at ameritech.net)



Please also take a look at the archives

portion of the website, there is alot of good

info about the history of Akron AA on there

(and a lot more at the archives).



I look forward to being of service.



Peter McH. from Akron



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



From: "ricktompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>

(ricktompkins at comcast.net)



I can suggest starting off at the Akron Intergroup

Office on N. Main. The sequence of where you visit

can be guided by an available tour map from the

Office.



Call ahead, ask for a viewing of the Archives

at the Intergroup Office -- the Akron Archives

is a top-flight museum site, and I'm sure Gail

LaCroix or Jim Burns would be happy to greet you,

and perhaps arrange a personal guided tour with

a local volunteer.



On your tour, remember to plan a quiet time at

Dr. Bob's gravesite ...



After all the touring, get to a meeting, too!

The Arid Club on the southeast side has a good

speaker meeting.



Most of all, you will heartily enjoy the trip!



Rick, Illinois



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



From: daniel dougherty <olddand@msn.com>

(olddand at msn.com)



You have a pretty good tour of Akron already

mapped out. I would suggest you add the

Gatehouse to your tour of the Seiberling

estate (and allow enough time to tour the

flowers while you're there).



There is a house next to Dr. Bob's House, in

which the Akron office maintains a pretty good

collection of AA historical items.



BTW, don't miss the Akron office itself. It

has a great display in its meeting room.



Also be sure to try and schedule a meeting with

the Akron historian, who is also located in the

rooms where the Akron office is located.



If you have time, you might also like to

attend an Aakron meeting or two. Many of them

have historical backgrounds and display items.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



From: Sheryl Sizemore <sherylsizemore@yahoo.com>

(sherylsizemore at yahoo.com)



I can say it's a spiritual experience.



All you need to do is call Dr. Bob's House

which is open from noon until 3:00 pm daily,

phone 330-864-1935.



Or email them @ volunteers@drbobs.com



Internet address is www.drbobs.com



One of their volunteer coordinators (Rick W.)

took us to Dr. Bob's home, Seiberlings Estate,

Town's Hospital, and Dr. Bob's gravesite.



We also went to a meeting that night which

began in the old school.



Have a blessed trip and please share with us

your experience, strength, and hope.



Sheryl Sizemore

Holly Springs Group, GA



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Also from:

"Mike" <heat_cool2004@yahoo.com>

(heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
3986 chris mahl
Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. 1/1/2007 11:34:00 PM


I believe his name was Al Speckman.



I will dig out the reference and send it along.



Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill,

Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats

and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the

city.



I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs

in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and

phrases of Emmet's.



I'll send along another note with more specifics.



Best from NYC.



Chris M.





On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>

> The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox

> contains the following sentence:

>

> "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the

> men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous

> co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result

> of this connection early AA groups often went

> to hear Fox."

>

> If this statement is correct, can anyone in

> our web group give me this man's name?

>

> Glenn Chesnut, South Bend





-----------------------

Chris Mahl

10 Ventures

PDA 917-902-4980

Fax 18668230272


0 -1 0 0
3987 Bob Wilson
Re: Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 1/2/2007 2:20:00 AM


Please take this with a grain of salt, but a

medallion was shown to me by a fellow AA back in

the seventies who was librarian at the state

supreme court in Hawai'i. She had a colleague

who was a learned nun, who when she got sober

gave her the medallion featuring a "Saint

McTavish [or MacTavish]" who the nun told her

was the patron saint of drunks. I'll bet this

list could grow to be a long one.



A good year to all of you,



Bob W.


0 -1 0 0
3988 Sober186@aol.com
AA No. 3? AA No. 3? 1/1/2007 7:39:00 PM


Some time between Dr. Bpb's last drink and the

when Bill and Dr. Bob first heard of Bill D.,

there was a man named Eddie R who was sober for

at least a few days.



In the book Dr. Bob And The Good Old Timers,

his escapades are described in the Chapter

beginning on page 76. He was apparently sober

off and on the summer of 1935. Bill D's wife

remembers Eddie being sober when Bill D.

got out of the hospital on July 4, 1935.



She is also quoted as saying "When Bill D.

came out of the hospital Dr. Bob had only been

sober three weeks. I thought they'd been sober

for years. I think my husband thought so too."



Eddie did not stay sober for any long strech in

the early days, but eventually put together at

least 7 years of continuous sobriety and visited

Bill in New York at the office. He said he was

the first one to get the program, and the first

one to reject it.



Jim L.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
3989 Chris Budnick
RE: Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 1/1/2007 11:37:00 PM


I've got a scanned copy of Bill's written

promises in his family bible. The specific date

of his third promise was January 12, 1929.



Bill wrote:



"To tell you once more that I am finished with

it. I love you."



_____



From: chesbayman56

Subject: Significant January Dates in A.A. History



"Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible

to quit drinking."


0 -1 0 0
3990 jenny andrews
60th anniv. of AA in Great Britain, plus new UK GSO address 60th anniv. of AA in Great Britain, plus new UK GSO address 1/2/2007 8:16:00 AM


Apropos the film of Bill W. on the Twelve

Traditions which is available from the United

Kingdom GSO.



The UK's GSO is moving this month to larger

premises. The new address will be:



PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green, York YO1 7NJ.



Telephone and email addresses stay the same.



By the way, it is the 60th anniversary of the

foundation of AA in Great Britain in March

this year.



Regards,

Laurie A.


0 -1 0 0
3991 george cleveland
Re: Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 1/2/2007 2:27:00 PM


Also being considered is Fr. Alfred Pampalon,

born in Levis, Quebec and entombed at St. Anne

de Beaupre north of Quebec City. FMI, see

http://repchret.chadcom.org/chapelle/pampalon1.html



George


0 -1 0 0
3992 Dennis M.
Significant January Dates/Questions Significant January Dates/Questions 1/2/2007 5:22:00 PM


I have a couple of questions relative to the

significant dates in AA history.



Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.



Who is Bob B.?



Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis



I remember doing some research at the New York

archives and noted that in 1946 the first group

of what I suspect were predominantly black

members located in the New York Harlem community

called itself the "St. Nicholas Interracial Group."



I noticed that several more groups came into

existence during the late 1940's/early '50's

also were listed as "Interracial" groups.



We know they would not have referred to

themselves as "black" in those days. Was it

their decision to call their groups "Interracial"

or was it another decision maker?



I always assumed that the reference to interracial

was a desire by those groups to convey the message

that anyone was welcome in their groups while we

know that not every group of AA in that timeframe

was welcoming to black alcoholic members.



Dennis Mardon



- - -



From Glenn Chesnut:



Although the first two black members in South

Bend did not come in until 1948, the fullest

account of early black AA people is, I believe,

still the one given in "The Factory Owner &

the Convict" and "The St. Louis Gambler & the

Railroad Man," with full accounts given in

these early black members' own words.



See:



http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kstl1.html



Plus additional materials on John Shaifer, etc., at

http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html



and "Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-

South Bend Axis" at

http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html



In South Bend, one of the first two black

members eventually formed an "Interracial

Group," where the title was designed to make

it clear that white AA's were perfectly

welcome, but that there were going to be

black people there if they were still too

prejudiced to handle this.



That was the sole reason for giving the

group that name.



But Brownie, the other key black leader in

South Bend, was nevertheless opposed to the

formation of this group, and Goshen Bill

(the key black leader in the Elkhart/Goshen/

Kosciuscko county area) was extremely opposed

(to say the least) to having a group like

that.



Goshen Bill in particular said that "he had

gotten drunk with white men, Mexicans, and

Apache Indians," and that you didn't start

getting well from alcoholism until you

learned that alcohol affected all human

beings the same way, and that they all got

sober the same way.



This simply paralleled debates going on

among black Americans in the period after

school integration started, where you had

those who embraced integration fully on

one side of the spectrum, and a new group

of black separatists arising on the other

extreme, along with everything else in

between.



The "Interracial Group" in South Bend was

not a black separatist group however.

The name was merely a signal to

prejudiced white people that if they showed

up at this meeting, they had better stick

their prejudice in their coat pockets,

because there were going to be some very

good recovering black alcoholics there at

that meeting every week.



That group finally withered away around

1990 when it became an anachronism. No one

was surprised any longer to walk into an

AA meeting in South Bend, and see lots of

black people at some of these meetings,

and you didn't have to "warn people" in

advance. (Thank goodness!)



What is significant to me is that all the

material on early black AA history was

included in the material mentioned above,

NOT because of any desire to write "black

history." Bill Hoover, Brownie, and Goshen

Bill in particular were practically worshiped

by everybody in AA in north central Indiana,

and their memories are still kept in honor

to this day, because they spoke with such

enormous wisdom, and got so many people sober

of all skin colors.



They were simply AA at its very best.


0 -1 0 0
3993 ricktompkins
Re: Just for today card Just for today card 1/2/2007 9:11:00 PM


Seems the AA usage of the Just For Today card

comes and goes, but the Card is part of Al-Anon

Family Groups conference-approved literature that

is regularly emphasized and distributed for

Alateen use.



This thread lingers, group, and within the past

week I've seen some new interpretations.



AAWS never undertook this venture, perhaps the

"Where Do I Go From Here?" bookmark works in a

similar way...



Here's an AA-principle inspired piece, courtesy

of a member of another egroup (indiana fourth

dimension recovery), with thanks to Jerry O.:



JUST FOR TODAY



1. I WILL TRY TO LIVE THROUGH THIS DAY ONLY,

AND NOT TACKLE MY WHOLE LIFE'S PROBLEM AT ONCE.

I CAN DO THINGS FOR 12 HOURS THAT WOULD APPALL

ME IF I HAD TO KEEP IT UP FOR A LIFETIME.

THIS ESPECIALLY INCLUDES THE 12 STEPS.



2. I WILL BE HAPPY! THIS ASSUMES THAT WHAT

ABRAHAM LINCOLN SAID IS TRUE, THAT "MOST FOLKS

ARE ABOUT AS HAPPY AS THEY MAKE UP THEIR MINDS

TO BE." GOD INTENDED FOR US TO BE HAPPY,

JOYOUS AND FREE. I WILL AVOID THE DELIBERATE

MANUFACTURE OF MISERY.



3. I WILL TRY TO ADJUST MYSELF TO WHAT IS, AND

NOT TRY TO ADJUST EVERYTHING TO MY DESIRES.

I WILL TAKE MY FAMILY, MY BUSINESS, AND MY

LICKS AS THEY COME AND FIT MYSELF TO THEM JUST

AS THE SERENITY PRAYER SUGGEST.



4. I WILL TAKE CARE OF MY BODY. I WILL

EXERCISE IT, CARE FOR IT, NOURISH IT, NOT ABUSE

OR NEGLECT IT, SO THAT IT WILL BE A PERFECT

MACHINE FOR GOD'S BIDDING.



5. I WILL STRENGTHEN MY MIND THROUGH PRAYER

AND MEDITATION. I WILL LEARN SOMETHING USEFUL.

I WILL NOT BE A MENTAL LOAFER AND SEEK ONLY

THAT WHICH IS COMFORTABLE TO ME. I WILL READ

SOMETHING, THE BIG BOOK, SCRIPTURES OR SPIRITUAL

LITERATURE, THAT REQUIRES THOUGHT, EFFORT AND

CONSIDERATION.



6. I WILL EXERCISE MY SOUL BY SEEKING AND

DOING GOD'S WILL. I WILL DO A GOOD DEED AND

NOT LET ANYONE KNOW ABOUT IT. I WILL DO AT

LEAST TWO THINGS I DO NOT WANT TO DO. I WILL

REPRESENT THE PRINCIPLES OF AA IN ALL OF MY

AFFAIRS.



7. I WILL BE AGREEABLE SEEKING TO BRING PEACE

AND HARMONY, RATHER THAN CONFLICT AND CONFUSION

TO EVERY SITUATION. I WILL LOOK AS WELL AS I

CAN, DRESS AS BECOMINGLY AS POSSIBLE, TALK LOW,

ACT COURTEOUSLY, BE LIBERAL WITH PRAISE,

CRITICIZE NOT AT ALL, NOR FIND FAULT WITH

ANYTHING. I WILL NOT TRY TO REGULATE OR IMPROVE

ANYONE.



8. I WILL WORK THE PROGRAM OF AA TO THE BEST

OF MY ABILITY. I WILL TRY TODAY TO ELIMINATE

ONE OF MY DEFECTS OF CHARACTER--SELFISHNESS,

DISHONESTY, RESENTMENT OR FEAR--FROM MY LIFE

TODAY. BUT I WILL NOT FALL PREY TO UNREALISTIC

EXPECTATIONS. I WILL SEEK ONLY PROGRESS IN

THIS AREA, NOT PERFECTION.



9. I WILL START MY DAY WITH QUIET TIME. THIRTY

MINUTES IS DESIRABLE, BUT IF I CAN ONLY DO TWO

OR THREE MINUTES THAT IS FAR BETTER THAN NONE

AT ALL. IN THIS TIME I WILL SAY PLEASE GOD TAKE

MY WILL AND GUIDE MY LIFE. I WILL THANK GOD

SO AS TO GET A BETTER PERSPECTIVE ON LIFE.



10. I WILL BE UNAFRAID. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID

TO BE HAPPY. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO ENJOY

WHAT IS BEAUTIFUL. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO

LOVE AND TO BELIEVE THAT THOSE I LOVE, LOVE

ME. I WILL SEEK HONESTY, UNSELFISHNESS, LOVE

AND PURITY AS MY DESIRED STATE OF BEING TODAY.



11. I WILL LET GRATITUDE DRIVE MY ACTIONS,

RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO GOSSIP AND CRITICIZE,

REJECT RESENTMENT, TRY TO BE KIND AND GO OUT

OF MY WAY TO DO A GOOD DEED FOR SOMEONE.



12. I WILL OPEN UP MY HEART, MY LIFE AND MY

HOME TO THE STILL SUFFERING ALCOHOLIC WITH

THE REALIZATION THAT I AM THE RECIPIENT OF

ANOTHER ALCOHOLIC'S GRATITUDE. NO TASK SHALL

BE TO GREAT AND NO SOUL TO SMALL FOR ME

UNDERTAKE AS A THANKFUL BLESSING FOR THE LIFE

I DO NOT FULLY DESERVE, BUT SO RICHLY ENJOY.


0 -1 0 0
3994 feelgoodcp
The Bob P Book update to AACOA The Bob P Book update to AACOA 1/3/2007 10:41:00 PM


I was wondering if anyone had a PDF copy of the

book draft that Bob P. (Pearson)(sp) worked on

so long and could never get finished, not

because of the author but because of the way

AA had grown. I guess the conference has just

surrendered to the fact it cannot be done.



As I recall a draft had been placed before one

conference and if so that would be what I would

be looking for, the conference literature

attendees should have gotten a draft, anyone

have any information?



Gary R.



Please contact me directly at:



feelgoodcp@yahoo.com

(feelgoodcp at yahoo.com)



[From the moderator: the Yahoo group system

does not having a "forwarding button," so

if you have a copy, please send it directly

to Gary.]


0 -1 0 0
3995 Chris Budnick
RE: Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 1/3/2007 11:54:00 PM


This date should make the list, seeing how

Dr. Jung replied within a week:



Jan. 23, 1961 - Bill W. sends an appreciation

letter, which he considers long overdue, to

Dr. Carl Jung for his contribution to AA.



Source:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/wilsonletter.html



Chris


0 -1 0 0
3996 Mel Barger
Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. 1/5/2007 7:06:00 AM


Hi Chris,



Al Speckman sounds like the name, or is at

least close. I believe he was the fellow who

wrote the Responsibility Declaration.



Re Emmet Fox, I've been a devotee of his

writings for more than fifty years. I agree

that some of our terms came from Emmet, and I

commented on this in a short article which

Glenn posted on his website. Please visit:

http://www.hindsfoot.com/Fox1.html.



One very nice thing about Fox's writings is

that he made it a point to avoid words and

terms that are not in common usage.



Mel Barger



melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)



----- Original Message -----

From: chris mahl



I believe his name was Al Speckman.



I will dig out the reference and send it along.



Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill,

Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats

and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the

city.



I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs

in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and

phrases of Emmet's.



I'll send along another note with more specifics.



Best from NYC.



Chris M.



On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>

> The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox

> contains the following sentence:

>

> "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the

> men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous

> co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result

> of this connection early AA groups often went

> to hear Fox."

>

> If this statement is correct, can anyone in

> our web group give me this man's name?

>

> Glenn Chesnut, South Bend


0 -1 0 0
3997 John Wikelius
Early Grapevine Issues Early Grapevine Issues 1/1/2007 10:46:00 PM


Is there anyone out there who has a complete

set of Grapevines? I need covers from 1948 to

mid 1950's



nov85_gr@graceba.net



(nov85_gr at graceba.net)



__________________________________



From the moderator: please contact John Wikelius

directly at that email address, if you can help

him.



Remember that the Yahoo group system has

no "forward" button that I can click on to

forward messages which have been sent to the

AAHistoryLovers, where I can send them on to

a specific individual.



The only three options are "Post" (to the entire

group) or "Edit" or "Delete."



I am assuming that John needs something not

available from the version available online.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
3998 Mitchell K.
Re: Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. 1/4/2007 8:17:00 PM


I was under the impression that Al was one of the

first editors of the Grapevine and that his mother

lived in Cleveland.









--- chris mahl <chrismahl@gmail.com> wrote:



> I believe his name was Al Speckman.

>

> I will dig out the reference and send it along.

>

> Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill,

> Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats

> and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the

> city.

>

> I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs

> in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and

> phrases of Emmet's.

>

> I'll send along another note with more specifics.

>

> Best from NYC.

>

> Chris M.

>

>

> On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

> wrote:

> >

> > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox

> > contains the following sentence:

> >

> > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the

> > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous

> > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result

> > of this connection early AA groups often went

> > to hear Fox."

> >

> > If this statement is correct, can anyone in

> > our web group give me this man's name?

> >

> > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend

>

>

> -----------------------

> Chris Mahl

> 10 Ventures

> PDA 917-902-4980

> Fax 18668230272

>

>


0 -1 0 0
3999 acorelis
Re: Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 1/4/2007 4:22:00 PM


Here in Mexico there is a tongue in cheek retablo

to the Patron Saint of AA: San Expedido (pedido

is slang for drunk).



It comes complete with tiny beer bottles under

a circle with a slash through it ... quite a

charming piece of folk art.


0 -1 0 0
4000 t
Re: Re: Just for today card Just for today card 1/5/2007 9:31:00 AM


I guess I'm confused [again :) ]



What I have been thinking this thread was about

was a bookmark size card that has "Just for

Today" and a prayer by a Fra. Giovanni on one

side. And on the other it has a "Tenth Step

Checklist". I'll type it out as it appears on

what I have and paste it in below.



Could someone help me out and clarify what is

on the Al-Anon card or the one used in England?



------- side 1 -------



Just For Today



I salute you;

There is nothing I can give you

which you have not got;

but there is much, very much that,

while I cannot give it,



you can take.



No Heaven can come to us unless

our hearts find rest in today.

Take Heaven!



No peace lies in the future

which is not hidden in this present

little instant.

Take peace!



The gloom of the world is but a

shadow.

Behind it, yet within our reach is joy.



There is radiance and glory in the darkness

could we but see, and to see, we

have only to look;

I beseech you to look.



And so, at this time I greet you,

not quite as the world sends

greetings, but with profound esteem,

and with prayer that for you now

and forever the day breaks,

and the shadows flee away.



Fra. Giovanni - 1513 A.D.



------- side 2 -------



TENTH STEP CHECKLIST



1. Conscious Contact

(a) Did I start my day with a conscious

contact with God as I understand Him?

(b) Did I start my day with "Please"?

(c) Did I start my day asking for sobriety

and guidance?

2. Did I try to be pleasant to everyone?

3. Did I go out of my way to be kind or to do a

good deed for someone?

4. Did I demonstrate gratitude in my life?

5. Did I totally reject resentment?

6. Did I resist the PLOMS?

(Poor little old me's)

7. Did I indulge in any _________________ ?

(Your favorite character defect)

8. Did I resist the temptation to gossip or

criticize?

9. Did I have an AA contact today?

(reading, phone, or meeting)

10. Did I renew at any time during the day my

conscious contact with God as I

understand Him? (A quiet time, a meditation

break)

11. Will I close my day with "Thanks"?

12. ______________________________________

______________________________________

______________________________________

______________________________________

(Fill in your own or another person's

favorite daily aid to sobriety)


0 -1 0 0
4001 Mel Barger
Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al Steckman (correct spelling) Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al Steckman (correct spelling) 1/5/2007 7:28:00 AM


Chris,



I just pulled this up. It appears that the

name was "Steckman," not "Speckman."



Mel Barger



- - -



Alcoholics Anonymous and Other Twelve-Step

Programs in Relation to New Thought



The most important connection of AA and New

Thought was by means of the writings of popular

New Thought writer Emmet Fox. Igor I. Sikorsky,

Jr., in his AA's Godparents: Carl Jung, Emmet

Fox, Jack Alexander (Minneapolis: CompCare

Publishers, 1990, p. 20), says:



Perhaps Emmet Fox's fundamental contribution

to AA was the simplicity and power of The Sermon

on the Mount as well as his other books that

set forth in very simple language the truths

of the New Thought philosophy.



Sikorski especially refers to Fox's emphasis

on living in the present, similar to AA's

teaching one to live a day at a time. He finds

another similarity in nonownership of property

by AA and the Church of the Healing Christ,

of Fox, who used to speak in large public halls,

primarily in New York. The essential impossibility

of holding a mindset inconsistent with one's

lifestyle is another parallel. Sikorski says,

"Five of the original stories in the Big Book

were by early AA members deeply influenced by

Emmet Fox (p. 23)."



Sikorsky also notes (p. 19) that an early

recovering alcoholic who worked with co-founder

Bill Wilson was Al Steckman, whose mother was

Fox's secretary, and that as a result of this

connection early AA groups often would go to

listen to Fox.



A valuable writing is "New Thought and 12 Step

Recovery From Addiction: Practical American

Spiritualities" by Kenneth E. Hart, from

Spiritual and Religious Issues in Behaviour

Change, 9: 3-5. Hart's longer presentation on

this topic to the Society for the Study of

Metaphysical Religion is expected to be published

in its journal.





----- Original Message -----

From: chris mahl

Subject: Re: Emmet Fox's secretary and Al S.





I believe his name was Al Speckman.



I will dig out the reference and send it along.



Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill,

Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats

and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the

city.



I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs

in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and

phrases of Emmet's.



I'll send along another note with more specifics.



Best from NYC.



Chris M.



On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>

> The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox

> contains the following sentence:

>

> "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the

> men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous

> co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result

> of this connection early AA groups often went

> to hear Fox."

>

> If this statement is correct, can anyone in

> our web group give me this man's name?

>

> Glenn Chesnut, South Bend


0 -1 0 0
4002 robin_foote
Just for Today: Australian version Just for Today: Australian version 1/5/2007 8:28:00 PM


Hi Guys,

This is the text of the Australian Just For Today

Card. This is published by AA Australia and is

available at all if not most meetings.



I've been sober for two decades and can remember

it being around for ever.



Robin F.

Sunshine Coast, Queensland

'Perfect one day, ideal the next'.

_____



JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this

day only and not tackle my whole life's problems

at once. I can do something for twelve hours

that would appall me if I felt that I had to

keep it up for a lifetime.



JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to

be true what Abraham Lincoln said, "that most

folks are as happy as they make up their minds

to be".



JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and

not try to adjust everything to my own desires.

I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself

to it.



JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind.

I will study. I will learn something useful.

I will not be a mental loafer. I will read

something that requires mental effort and

concentration.



JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three

ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not

get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will

not count. I will do at least two things I do

not want to do - just for exercise. I will not

show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they

may be hurt, but today I will not show it.



JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look

as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low,

act courteously, criticise not one bit, not

find fault with anything and not try to improve

or regulate anybody except myself.



JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may

not be able to follow it exactly, but I will

have it. I will save myself from two pests;

hurry and indecision.



JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour

all by myself, and relax. During this half

hour, some time, I will try to get a better

perspective of my life.



JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially

I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful,

and to believe that as I give to the world, so

the world will give to me.





Published in Australia by the National Office

of Alcoholics Anonymous, Australia


0 -1 0 0
4003 Doug B.
Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. 1/7/2007 2:59:00 PM


My mother-in-law used to attend many of Emmet

Fox's talks in New York in the 30's and 40's.

She said she would see Bill W. at many of them

and that Bill always had a group of men with him.



When I asked her if there was anything about

Bill's group that she remembered, like fidgeting,

coughing, smoking, talking...etc? She replied

that the only thing that stood out, besides the

fact that they all stayed close together, was

that they were always "very well dressed".



Doug B.


0 -1 0 0
4004 Arkie Koehl
Re: Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 1/5/2007 4:40:00 PM


Also beloved among office workers and laborers

in Mexico is San Lunes (Saint Monday), whose day

is regularly observed by weekend bingers unable

to show up :-)



Arkie Koehl

Honolulu



On Jan 4, 2007, at 11:22, acorelis wrote:



> Here in Mexico there is a tongue in cheek retablo

> to the Patron Saint of AA: San Expedido (pedido

> is slang for drunk).

>

> It comes complete with tiny beer bottles under

> a circle with a slash through it ... quite a

> charming piece of folk art.


0 -1 0 0
4005 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Was there an early Grapevine editor from Cleveland? Was there an early Grapevine editor from Cleveland? 1/6/2007 7:37:00 AM


I think I remember reading that there was an

early editor of the Grapevine who came to us

from Cleveland, and that his name was Tom X.

or Tom Y. And that he also wrote our preamble.



Was he one of the Tom's mentioned in "Pass It

On"?



Can anybody tell me more about him?



Kilroy W.

4021 Club

Philadelphia PA


0 -1 0 0
4006 mchugh1652
Map for Akron tour Map for Akron tour 1/6/2007 8:04:00 AM


I finally found the internet page with a map of

the historic sites on it. You can see it here

and print it out:



http://akronaa.org/Archives/map/map.html



As others have pointed out a guided tour is

much better. Enjoy. Peter


0 -1 0 0
4007 Glenn Chesnut
Pink cloud and Pink Seven Pink cloud and Pink Seven 1/10/2007 3:13:00 PM


From: Rdeneve670@cs.com

(Rdeneve670 at cs.com)



My name is Linda and I am an alcoholic, by the

Grace of God sober 14 years.



I am trying to find where the pink cloud is

referenced, probably before the printing of the

big book, would it be? Because it is just in

little quote marks in the Big Book, as though

they were referencing some other material.



What does it mean? What is 'the pink seven'

and is that still the same topic or a different

one?



- - -



From the moderator:



I checked in the two online concordances to the

Big Book which I use:



http://www.royy.com/concord.html

http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/



The only place I could find the word pink used

is in the famous and well known passage on

p. 304 in the fourth edition of the Big Book

(p. 348 in the third edition), in the story

"Physician Heal Thyself!"



The author was trying to get sober by reading

and studying books ALONE, partly because he was

a highly educated surgeon and did not think

that the ordinary everyday people at the AA

meetings (the butchers and bakers and carpenters)

had anything to teach him. But they were

spiritual books that he was reading, he said

to himself, so that meant that he was working

the program. And HE was an intellectual, and

MUCH smarter than all these ordinary people

in the program.



(Lord help us, we ALL think we're smarter than

everybody else in the meeting room when we

first come in!)



He said that, for a while, "I was way up on a

pink cloud which is known as Pink Seven," but

that he eventually started to feel miserable

again, and started yearning to go back out

and start drinking again in spite of all his

reading.



I don't see any quotation marks around the

phrase, so I'm not sure what you mean by that

part of your question. But I still think you're

talking about the same passage I'm looking at.

Maybe you saw it reprinted in an intergroup

bulletin where somebody put quotation marks

around it.



At any rate, the message in this story was that

the author didn't start getting a genuinely good

new life in the program until he started ALSO

paying attention to what the ordinary everyday

people at the meetings had to teach him about

leading a good life, and until he started actually

working the twelve steps, and putting what he

was learning into action in simple little everyday

changes in his behavior (such as the way he acted

about washing the dishes at home and that kind

of thing).



- - -



In American slang back then, when you said that

someone was "on a pink cloud," you meant that

the person was in a state of temporary artificial

euphoria. Being "on a pink cloud" meant that you

had turned off all of your critical faculties

and were temporarily living in this marvelous

fantasy world where nothing ever went wrong or

could go wrong.



If you went out on a date with some guy, and

came back feeling all romantic and starry eyed,

and convinced that you had found "Mr. Wonderful,"

one of your friends might laugh and say, "well,

you're on a pink cloud now, but wait and see

what the guy looks like after a month or two

of going out with him on a steady basis. Wait

and find out how much you end up seeing him

after football season starts in a couple of

weeks!"



Being "on a pink cloud" meant that you were

living in a dream world, as opposed to living

in the real, everyday world.



It is easy to work ourselves up into a temporary

"pink cloud" by reading spiritual books that

talk about loving all humanity, or "feeling one

with the all," or loving Jesus, or by standing

around reciting the responsibility pledge with

our eyes all starry. And there are people who

try to work the AA program by hyping themselves

up in that way, without doing a single thing to

change their basic character, or to change their

ways of actually behaving in everyday life.



CHANGED BY GRACE is the mark of true twelve step

spiritual progress. Real "life changing" as the

Oxford Group put it. We have to start working

on using the power of grace (freely given to us

for our use) to heal all of our character defects.



These are the character defects which make us

angry all the time, have us attacking other people

all the time and trying to bully other people

into doing things our way, criticizing everybody

else in the program and starting arguments all

the time, refusing to help out on washing dishes,

moving chairs and tables, shoveling snow, going

to the grocery store to get milk or a loaf of

bread. When we begin real spiritual growth, we

start to heal these character defects, and then we

start actually treating other people differently

in all phases of our ordinary everyday life.



I've seen people spend years trying to artificially

hype themselves up onto a pink cloud by reading

the Bible (or the Torah or the Koran), talking all

the time about Jesus (or Moses or Mohammed or

Buddha), or reciting the Four Absolutes with

pious looks on their faces. The message of this

story in the Big Book was that these things are

NOT good things to do, if the only reason why we

are doing them, is to artificially put ourselves

into a temporary "pink cloud" euphoria.



Or to put it all in five simple words,

"faith without works is dead."



- - -



In ancient and medieval spirituality, when someone

had a spiritual experience, it was believed that

the soul had been transported up to one of the seven

crystal spheres which they believed surrounded

the planet earth. Each of these seven crystal

spheres was called a "heaven."



So somebody who had had a really ecstatic spiritual

experience would say that "my soul was transported

up to the seventh heaven," this being the best

and most vivid kind of spiritual experience.



In this passage in the Big Book, the writer is

jokingly combining the two ideas and saying,

in effect, "I wasn't just up on a pink cloud,

I was up on the highest and most euphoric

kind of pink cloud: Pink Seven!!!!"



- - -



On the seven heavens, see for example the last

part of Dante's Divine Comedy, the part called

the Paradiso, where his soul climbs up level

by level until he has arrived at the seventh

heaven (presided over by St. Bernard, the great

medieval mystic), and he is granted a brief

overpowering vision of the divine Love and

Light which illumines and moves the entire

universe:



l’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle



(the Love which moves the sun and all the

other stars)



But you see, Dante's vision is the right kind

of spiritual experience. That is because he paid

his dues first! He had first journeyed through

his own personal inner hell in the Inferno (the

first section of the Divine Comedy) and had

learned that, surprisingly enough, God did not

make any human soul stay in hell. All the souls

in hell are allowed to leave the moment that

they want to. The only requirement is that they

admit that they were wrong! As long as they keep

on giving alibis and excuses for their behavior,

and blaming it on other people, they will never

get out of hell.



And then Dante had some more dues that he had

to pay. In the middle part of the Divine Comedy,

he had to climb the mountain of Purgatory,

which he envisaged as a seven step recovery

program, based on healing the character defects

described by the Seven Deadly Sins.



(The Mountain of Purgatory means "the Cleansing

Mountain," from the Latin word purgo which

means to clean, cleanse, wash off, purify.)



Only after he had done the spiritual work which

was necessary in order to heal his Anger, Pride,

Envy, and so on, could he begin rising up through

the Seven Heavens and arrive at the kind of

authentic spiritual experience that he describes

at the end.



- - -



What the little story in the Big Book is doing,

is warning us that we can fool ourselves into

believing that spiritual experience is gained by

artificially hyping ourselves into "pious"

emotional states, and singing hymns about how much

we love Jesus (or Moses or Buddha or Mohammed),

and talking all the time about how spiritual

we are (in order to pridefully impress other

people). The most we can get that way is

artificial "pink cloud" spirituality.



It is easy to get on a pink cloud by going to

church for an hour on Sunday morning (or

synagogue or a Buddhist temple), where I can

get into an artificial emotional state, using

the stained glass windows and pious music.

But there are 168 hours in a week. It is in

the other 167 hours that I need to learn how

to start changing my behavior, where there

are no stained glass windows and no solemn

organ music playing in the background.



Twelve step meetings force us to learn how

to develop a spirituality which will work

when there are no stained glass windows and

no organ music and no chanting of beloved

religious texts going on in the background:

when the kids are screaming, the boss is

criticizing my work, and the other people

in the AA committee which is setting up the

picnic aren't acting like I want them to act!



And real spiritual experience can only be

gained by FIRST journeying down into the

hellish regions of our own minds and ferreting

out all the anger and selfishness and self pity

and fear, and taking responsibility for doing

something about these character defects, and

THEN by putting these new insights into action

by changing the way we live every aspect of

our daily lives.



When I first learn how to help out with washing

the dishes, when I first learn how to stop bullying

other people and starting up quarrels and arguments

all the time, when I learn how to stop attacking

other people and putting them down all the time,

when I learn how to start treating everyone around

me (without exception) with the kind of real human

respect with which I would wish to be treated,

then and only then will I become fit someday

(perhaps if God is willing) to ascend to the

seventh heaven and obtain the vision of the true

divine Light and Love which illumines and moves

the entire universe.



"Pink Seven" isn't real. That's me using my own

fantasies to create an artificial and temporary

illusion.



The numinous reality of the divine Light and Love

and Glory spreading through all the world IS real.

But I have to CHANGE ME to obtain that.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)



- - -



P.S. USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION ON THE MESSAGE BOARD



If you go the Message section of

the AAHistoryLovers at



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages



there is a box at the top where you can search

through all the past messages for particular

words or phrases.



If you put quotation marks around a set of words,

it will search for those words in that order.



A lot of the standard questions have already been

asked in past years, so it can save a lot of time

if a search is done first, to see if the question

may already have been answered.



So I'm trying to encourage people to use the

search function, so they can get a quick answer

(when one is already available) instead of having

to wait around for several days.



In this case though, when I did a search for

"pink cloud" and "pink seven," the messages that

were posted gave part of the explanation, but

not all of it, so I'm filling in a few of the

missing gaps in my response to your question.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4008 funen99
Just for Today: Irish Version Just for Today: Irish Version 1/7/2007 4:37:00 AM


I had a look today at the Irish "Just For Today"

Card, which is approved by the AA General Service

Conference in Ireland and noted on the back page

"re-printed by Kind Permission AA GSO, GB".



Fiona



JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this

day only and not tackle my whole life problem

at once. I can do something for twelve hours

that would appall me if I felt that I had to

keep it up for a lifetime.



JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. Most

folks are as happy as they make up their minds

to be.



JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and

not try to adjust everything to my own desires.

I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself

to it.



JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind.

I will study. I will learn something useful.

I will not be a mental loafer. I will read

something that requires mental effort and

concentration.



JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three

ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not

get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will

not count. I will do at least two things I do

not want to do - just for exercise. I will not

show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they

may be hurt, but today I will not show it.



JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look

as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low,

act courteously, criticise not one bit, not

find fault with anything and not try to improve

or regulate anybody except myself.



JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may

not be able to follow it exactly, but I will

have it. I will save myself from two pests;

hurry and indecision.



JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour

all by myself, and relax. During this half

hour, some time, I will try to get a better

perspective of my life.



JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially

I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful,

and to believe that as I give to the world, so

the world will give to me.


0 -1 0 0
4009 vvpeachy@aol.com
Legal to reprint Just for Today: Australian version? Legal to reprint Just for Today: Australian version? 1/8/2007 11:25:00 PM


Is this copyrighted?



Or may another Intergroup Office produce these

and sell for cost without any legal infringement?



South Jersey Ginger



We've been asked about these cards lots -

especially Philadelphia's green card. The

green card has been requested because our office

is right across the Bridge.



Our Literature Committee is interested in

producing, but not interested in any legal

confusion.



Thank You for ALL of your input!





Lots of Love & Laughter,

Ginger F. & Ron B.



Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.

Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

_____



In a message dated 1/6/2007 4:02:02 PM Eastern

Standard Time, gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au

writes:



Hi Guys,

This is the text of the Australian Just For

Today Card. This is published by AA Australia

and is available at all if not most meetings.



I've been sober for two decades and can remember

it being around for ever.



Robin F.

Sunshine Coast, Queensland

'Perfect one day, ideal the next'.

_____



JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this

day only and not tackle my whole life's problems

at once. I can do something for twelve hours

that would appall me if I felt that I had to

keep it up for a lifetime.



JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to

be true what Abraham Lincoln said, "that most

folks are as happy as they make up their minds

to be".



JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and

not try to adjust everything to my own desires.

I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself

to it.



JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind.

I will study. I will learn something useful.

I will not be a mental loafer. I will read

something that requires mental effort and

concentration.



JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three

ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not

get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will

not count. I will do at least two things I do

not want to do - just for exercise. I will not

show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they

may be hurt, but today I will not show it.



JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look

as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low,

act courteously, criticise not one bit, not

find fault with anything and not try to improve

or regulate anybody except myself.



JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may

not be able to follow it exactly, but I will

have it. I will save myself from two pests;

hurry and indecision.



JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour

all by myself, and relax. During this half

hour, some time, I will try to get a better

perspective of my life.



JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially

I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful,

and to believe that as I give to the world, so

the world will give to me.





Published in Australia by the National Office

of Alcoholics Anonymous, Australia


0 -1 0 0
4010 sbanker914@aol.com
Recordings of Emmet Fox speaking? Recordings of Emmet Fox speaking? 1/9/2007 7:04:00 AM


Does anyone know if any of Emmet Fox's talks in

New York City were recorded and if they are

available somewhere?



Susan

NYC



- - -



dougb@aahistory.com writes:



My mother-in-law used to attend many of Emmet

Fox's talks in New York in the 30's and 40's.


0 -1 0 0
4011 James Blair
Re: Pink cloud and Pink Seven Pink cloud and Pink Seven 1/10/2007 5:39:00 PM


The AA Grapevine published an article by Dr.

Harry Tiebout in September 1955 titled The Pink

Cloud and After.



In the first few years of AA's existance it was

a fairly coomon occurance to see a person take

a one or two-year cake and then get drunk. The

Fellowship was so concerned that it asked Dr.

Tiebout to investigate this phenomena.



What he found (and the article deals with) is

the fact that people with any lenght of sobriety

in the early days were not in abundance so the

person who achieved a year or two was "special"

and some them came to believe that they were

"special" too. Some got drunk.



Once it became common to have people with some

time, the phenomena stopped.



Tiebout refered to this as the "Pink Cloud."



Jim


0 -1 0 0
4012 spebsqsa@att.net
Re: Legal to reprint Just for Today? Legal to reprint Just for Today? 1/10/2007 11:04:00 PM


There are literally hundreds of web sites with

the "Just for Today" poem. Some include nice

artwork. Most say "Author Unknown" if anything.

A few attribute it to Sibyl F. Partridge, probably

a song lyric with Blanche Ebert Seaver. (Someone

else can verify that.)



I'm not a lawyer and I don't even play one

at meetings but I'd say nobody is going to come

after you for being the 500th person to print

a card with that well-known poem on it.



NOTE: I did find one site which apparently

has the song as an audio file but it refused

to play it for me because it is, "Not available

in the United States and Canada due to possible

copyright restrictions."



- - -



From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



The AlAnon Just for Today bookmark is

copyrighted.



Tommy in Baton Rouge



- - -



From Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



Sometimes the copyright applies only to the

typesetting and artwork on that particular

copy. Where if you reset the type, it's O.K.,

but if you photocopy it and start selling the

photocopies you're infringing on their

copyright.



For AlAnon to copyright the text itself, they

would have to show that they either wrote

the text, or purchased the copyright from

the person who actually wrote it.



So the question is, not who has put out a copy

with the words "copyrighted" on it, but who

originally wrote it, and what the chain of

ownership is, if any?



And once something has shown up on hundreds

of websites and cards sold in bookstores

with nobody complaining, it will be considered

as having fallen over into the public domain,

and anybody will be able to use it who wants

to.



(The earliest edition of A Course on Miracles

fell into the public domain, I think for that

reason among others, and anybody can reprint

that edition now, or post it on the internet.)



The Just For Today card sounds to me like it's

already turned into public domain, but you'd

need to check with a good copyright and

patent attorney to make sure.


0 -1 0 0
4013 vvpeachy@aol.com
Re: Legal to reprint Just for Today? Legal to reprint Just for Today? 1/10/2007 7:29:00 PM


Thank you so much for the input.



I will bring this to my Intergroup Literature

Committee and allow the committee system to

prevail.



I know our IG doesn't have sufficient money to

hire a patent attorney. I'm sure that we can

move a word or two to prevent it from being

exact.



ALL further suggestions are gladly accepted.



Thanks again!



South Jersey Ginger



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lots of Love & Laughter. Live simply. Love

generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.

Leave the rest to God.


0 -1 0 0
4014 Baileygc23@aol.com
Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA 1/11/2007 3:21:00 AM


I have been given to believe that on Jan. 5,

1939, Dr. Bob told Ruth Hock in a letter that

AA has "to get away from the Oxford Group

atmosphere."



Can anyone in the group tell me where I

could find a copy of this letter?



I understand that the basic issue was

created by the Protestant/Catholic problems

that existed at that time. The Oxford

Group was a Protestantant evangelical

movement, which meant that some Roman

Catholic priests were telling the

alcoholics among their parishioners that

if they joined an Oxford-Group-linked

AA group, they would be committing a

mortal sin, would be excommunicated and

barred from the sacraments of the Roman

Catholic Church, and would be condemned to

hell in the world to come.



George


0 -1 0 0
4015 robin_foote
Australian Just for Today Card LEGAL ISSUES Australian Just for Today Card LEGAL ISSUES 1/11/2007 7:37:00 AM


Hi Guys and sober greetings,



Ginger F. & Ron B. asked if this card may be

copyright protected. I have no idea about

copyright of the Australian 'Just for Today'

card for reprinting purposes. I'll leave that

up to the legal eagles, the Australian National

Service Office and World Service Office - and

maybe even Al-anon.



I have included the contact details for

Australia below as well as the liturature

catalogue reference.



Regards

Robin F.

Sunshine Coast, Australia.

Near the Great Barrier Reef - home of Nimo.

_____



08S-04

Just for Today Card

AU $0.25



National Office AA (GSO)



National Office of AA in Australia

48 Firth St, Arncliffe NSW 2205



Phone (02) 9599 8866

Fax (02) 9599 8844

E-mail: national.office@aa.org.au

Website: www.aa.org.au


0 -1 0 0
4016 Bill Lash
AA Groups & Membership (Spring 1971) AA Groups & Membership (Spring 1971) 1/14/2007 8:38:00 AM


Groups and Members



Spring 1971 (from the April 1971 General

Service Conference)



United States: 9,541 Groups, 167,167 Members,

146 Lone Members



Canada: 1,667 Groups, 25,957 Members, 51

Lone Members



In Hospitals: 767 Groups, 18,604 Members



In Prisons: 925 Groups, 32,481 Members



Internationalists: 412 Members



Total Above: 12,900 Groups, 244,818 Members



Overseas (1970 count): 3,559 Groups, 66,632

Members



Totals: 16,459 Groups, 311,450 Members



(including non-reported members, actual

membership is estimated at more than 500,000

worldwide)


0 -1 0 0
4017 Glenn Chesnut
The two 1947 editions of The Little Red Book The two 1947 editions of The Little Red Book 1/14/2007 2:32:00 PM


From Tommy Hickcox in Baton Rouge

<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)



SUMMARY



1946: first edition/printing of The Little Red

Book



1947: the one with the red cover seems to be

the second edition/printing



1947: the one with the maroon cover seems

to be the third edition/printing



[Moderator's note: Ed Webster refers to them

as "printings," but when substantial changes

are made in the text, which is what Ed was

doing at this stage, we normally refer to them

today as separate "editions."]



* * * * * *



The Little Red Book had two printings in the

year 1947 and there are differences between the

two volumes. Opinions have been offered which

of the volumes was printed first and which

second.



The covers, title and copyright pages are as

follows:



* * * * * *



One’s cover is distinctively red while the

other’s is a dull maroon.



- - -



The title page of the red volume has:



An Interpretation of

THE TWELVE STEPS

of the

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PROGRAM



- - -



While the maroon volume has:



An Interpretation of

Alcoholics Anonymous Program

of the

The Twelve Steps



- - -



The copyright pages are identical except the

red volume adds:



First Printing August, 1946

Second Printing January, 1947



* * * * * *



This would imply to me that the red volume was

the second printing.



Printing numbers were not published again

until much later.



It seemed to me one could make an educated guess

as to which came first by comparing text. If

there was a change in the text, did the change

carry over to the printings of 1948 and 1949

and assigned numbers four and five? Did one

volume have material in common with the 4th and

5th printings and not the other 1947 printing?



* * * * * *



A quick check of the first several pages gives

enough material to make an educated guess.



Author’s Note: red is one paragraph of 17

lines; maroon is three paragraphs of 29 lines;

4th/5th: 3 paragraphs of 23 lines but the

lines have more words in them. The wording

is identical to the maroon.



p. 9; para 4, sent 1: red-The new comer often

. . .; maroon-The newcomer too often . . .;

4th/5th-The newcomer too often . . .



p. 10; para 3; last sentence of maroon has

* to footnote: Note paragraph 2, page 44, in

the book, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS”; red does

not have the footnote. 4th and 5th have the

footnote.



p.11; para 2, sent 1: red: The alcoholics who

have recovered through the Alcoholics Anonymous

movement . . .; maroon: The alcoholics who

have recovered through the Alcoholics Anonymous

Fellowship . . .; 4th/5th: Fellowship



* * * * * *



There is a list of reasons for failures in the

A.A. program starting at the bottom of p. 11.

Red has 9 reasons listed and maroon has 10.

The first seven reasons are exactly the same,

but the rest differ:



Red 8. Those who have not been harmed sufficiently

by alcohol often fail because drinking is not a

matter of life and death with them. This group

generally involves the men and women with

relatively short alcoholic histories.



Maroon 8. Those who see in alcoholism a moral

problem rather than an illness.



Red 9. Those who accept only a part of the

Twelve-Step Program, who will not try to live

it in its entirety. Those who wish to put a

distorted selfish interpretation on all of the

steps for purposes of their own convenience.



Maroon 9. Those with relatively short alcoholic

histories, to whom drinking is more an

inconvenience than a matter of life or death.



Maroon 10. [There is no Red 10.] Those who

accept only a part of the Twelve-Step Program,

who will not try to live it in its entirety.

Those who wish to put a distorted selfish

interpretation on all of the steps for purposes

of their own convenience. Note-This is the

same as Red 9.



4th/5th: 4th the same as maroon. 5th adds

another reason.



p. 13, para 1: Red has alcoholism as a disease

and Maroon as an illness. 4th/5th have illness.



p. 13, para 2, last sentence: Maroon adds to

the end of the sentence--have faith--keep open

minded, and adds the footnote- *Read page 50

in the book, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS” 4th/5th

have the addition.



I did not proceed farther with this analysis as

I thought there was enough evidence to consider

the red volume to be the second printing and the

maroon volume to be the third printing as the

changes the maroon volume has were carried on

to later printings.



I unfortunately do not have a first printing.



Tommy in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4018 Joseph Trevaskis
Photo of Peabody Photo of Peabody 1/14/2007 6:59:00 AM


Hi all,



Does anyone have or know where I can get a photo

of Richard Rodgers Peabody?



I've been working on a project of putting together

photos of those who influenced AA's beginnings.



Thanks.



In Love & Service,



Joe



- - -



Moderator's note:



Peabody was the author of "The Common Sense of

Drinking" (Boston: Little, Brown and Co., 1930,

1931).



There is an Adobe Acrobat PDF version of the

book available online at:



http://www.aabibliography.com/pdffiles/CommonSenseDrinkPeabody.pdf


0 -1 0 0
4019 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA 1/11/2007 12:46:00 PM


If a letter was sent to Ruth Hock, it would be

on file in the GSO Archives in New York.



YIS

Shakey Mike Gwirtz



REMEMBER:

11th National Archives Workshop

Sept.6-9 in Phoenix,Az


0 -1 0 0
4020 leeannplatner
We The People Radio program 1939 We The People Radio program 1939 1/11/2007 8:59:00 PM


We are searching for an episode of WE THE PEOPLE

radio program from April 1939 featuring Gabrielle

Heatter with guest, Morgan R and his discussion

of AA.



We produced the program, and have a transcript,

but we do not have a copy of the audio recording

and the holdings we donated to the Library of

Congress do not include this episode. We would

love to borrow and/or pay to have a dub made if

any member has an actual copy of this recording.





Please contact me if you have or know where we

can find this recording.



Please call or contact me at



LeeAnn.platner@nbcuni.com

(LeeAnn.platner at nbcuni.com)



Thank you so much!



LeeAnn Platner

Director, Clip Licensing

NBC Studios and Bravo TV

100 Universal City Plaza

Building 4250 3rd Floor

Universal City, CA 91608

818-777-5147 Phone

818-866-2574 Fax


0 -1 0 0
4021 Glenn Chesnut
The early printings of The Little Red Book The early printings of The Little Red Book 1/14/2007 6:31:00 PM


I think I have gotten this right now, at

http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html, where I have

tried to lay out the sequence of printings of

The Little Red Book from 1946 to 1949.



The question of whether there were two print

runs in 1949 is based on information from Jack H.

in Scottsdale, Arizona, but unfortunately the

accuracy of my statement about these two print

runs depends on how good my memory was of what

Jack told me. I have worded it now as follows:

_______________________________



The first printing appeared in 1946, two separate

printings were done in 1947, there was another

printing in 1948, and Jack H. says that there

were actually two in 1949. Ed Webster kept on

making changes in the book during that period,

and in fact kept on making changes in the book

all the way to the end of his life in 1971.



Tommy H. (Baton Rouge, Louisiana) had made a

study of the two 1947 printings in Message 4017

in the AAHistoryLovers, see

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4017



He established that the one with the distinctively

red cover has to be the earlier of the two 1947

printings. It says that it came out in January

1947. The other 1947 printing, which has a dull

maroon cover, must have appeared later in that

year. This later printing embodies a number of

textual changes which were carried over to the

fourth and fifth printings.



My statement above that there were two 1949

printings is based on a telephone conversation

which I had with Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona.

If my memory serves me correctly, Jack told me

that the only difference between the two was

that the first printing had a minor typesetting

error (a segment of text inserted upside down

or something of that sort) and was recalled as

soon as this was discovered, so that not many

copies of the first printing actually got out.

But I have not verified this with my own eyes.

Jack had Ed Webster's papers, and may have found

this out from correspondence between Ed and the

printer. Let us however not quote my statement

that there were two 1949 printings as gospel

truth, until someone can find a copy of a faulty

version of the 1949 printing and corroborate this.

I am having to remember a long ago telephone

conversation, and my memory of what Jack actually

said could be faulty.



And Tommy H. in Baton Rouge says that the 1950

edition says that it was the sixth printing,

the 1951 edition says that it was the seventh

printing, and so on. So if there were two print

runs made in 1949 as Jack H. says, it also seems

clear that Ed Webster did not regard these two

print runs as separate "printings" or "editions"

in the full sense.



- - - - - -



So perhaps the best way of putting this would

be to list the editions as follows:



1st edition August 1946



2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)



3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)



4th edition 1948



5th edition 1949 (?? which may have had two print

runs with a typesetting error in the first print

run ??)



6th edition 1950



7th edition 1951 (and so on)



- - - - - -



Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should be

taken as a kind of benchmark version for many

purposes, since this was the last edition where

Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.



And we should remember that changes made in

The Little Red Book after Ed Webster's death

on June 3, 1971, which are numerous, were done

by editors at the Hazelden Foundation who

believed that they "could write better" about

alcoholism than Ed Webster.



The current Hazelden version is not bad, and

is perfectly usable for newcomers to the A.A.

program, but I have not found any rewordings

which they made which were an improvement in any

way at all, and the idea of rewriting a classic

text without warning the reader about it in a

footnote is something which no responsible

publisher ever does. You don't rewrite Shakespeare

or Hemingway or Faulkner or Mark Twain when you

publish new editions.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4022 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell 1/19/2007 1:44:00 PM


Shakey Mike here,



I recently purchased a book from Dr Bob's library

that has his signature in it(full name) that

belonged to his daughter, who was at that time (1951)

Mrs E. W. Gailbraith, 26 W. York Street, Akron 10, Oh.



Dr. Bob signed his name as R H Smith

855 Ardmore Ave. Akron 1943.



This book is the only book in the Kay Stewart

Collection that is signed by Dr. Bob. It was

given by Sue to Kay Stewart who was involved in

the beginnings of the Dr. Bob house.



Is there any more history of how Dr. Bob's house

came to be?



Any more on Kay Miller other than an old post

on AAHL?



Any info on Oscar Futral who is the first Akron

man to carry the message behind the walls?



The newly posted collection is available to see at

http://abookman.com/aacatalog.htm



It shows alot of early Akron AA memorabelia.



Other than Dr Bob's Big Book at GSO Archives and

his books at Dr Bob's house and Akron Intergroup,

are there many other Dr. Bob signatures out

there?



If you want a copy of that inscription from his

book please e-mail me at:



Shakey1aa@aol.com

(Shakey1aa at aol.com)



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Philadelphia, Pennysylvania

____________________________________



Mike,



He signed a copy of the first edition of The

Little Red Book which Ed Webster had sent him,

before passing it on to someone else.



See http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html



It ended up in Jack H.'s collection

(Scottsdale, Arizona).



Glenn Chesnut


0 -1 0 0
4023 dobbo101
Joe and Charlie workshops Joe and Charlie workshops 1/17/2007 5:46:00 PM


Can anyone tell me if the Big Book workshops

that Joe and Charlie once ran are still going

on.



How would one contact them?



I'm in the UK and would love to go to one.



My e-mail address is:



dobbo101@yahoo.com

(dobbo101 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4024 Glenn Chesnut
Later history of the Oxford Group Later history of the Oxford Group 1/22/2007 12:33:00 PM


There is a nice little summary of the later

history of the Oxford Group at:



http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/index.php?sn=2,2#top



Could AA have in fact remained linked to the

Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of

the OG and the way they were evolving? In AA,

we tend to focus only on the parts of the Oxford

Group that we are interested in, and ignore

other things that were essential parts of the

movement.



A true assessment of the nature of the Oxford

Group in the 1930's however has to make sense

out of where the movement has ended up in 2007.

Otherwise we are falsifying our picture of

the Oxford Group which Bill W. and Dr. Bob

had joined.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



1908 Frank Buchman



Buchman, an American Lutheran minister of Swiss

descent who was the originator of Initiatives

of Change, has a spiritual experience of release

from bitterness in crucial relationships that

alters the course of his life.



1927 The Oxford Group



Buchman's experience in 1908 convinces him that

moral compromise destroys human character and

relationships and that moral clarity is a

prerequisite for building a just society. His

ideas take root at Oxford and in some American

universities and his work becomes known as the

'Oxford Group'.



1935 Alcoholics Anonymous



Buchman's ideas spread through the 1930s into

many sectors and on to other continents.

Alcoholics Anonymous is established in 1935

as a direct result of the liberating experiences

which some people find through their contact

with the Oxford Group.



1938 NAME CHANGE: Moral Re-Armament



As European nations re-arm for war, Buchman

calls for 'moral and spiritual re-armament' as

the way to build a 'hate-free, fear-free,

greed-free world'. Following World War II,

Moral Re-Armament (MRA), as it becomes known,

launches a program of moral and spiritual

reconstruction to foster change in private and

public life based on a change in motivation

and character. Buchman also emphasised the

importance of faith. He believed that God has

a purpose for people's lives and for mankind

as a whole, and he encouraged people to seek

God's wisdom in regular times of silence and

reflection. Buchman, a devout Christian,

described Moral Re-Armament as 'the good road

of an ideology inspired by God upon which all

can unite. Catholic, Jew and Protestant, Hindu,

Muslim, Buddhist and Confucianist - all find

they can change, where needed and travel

along this good road together.'



1946 Caux, Switzerland



MRA opens an international conference center

in Caux, Switzerland, which is made possible

through the generosity and hard work of hundreds

of Swiss citizens.



1947 Germans to Caux



At a time when any contact with the Germans is

extremely difficult, Buchman and his colleagues

invite Germans to Caux. Over the next four years

growing number of Germans and French come to

Caux and their encounters become the basis of

a massive development in reconciliation. Buchman

is later decorated by both the German and French

governments for his contribution to European

reconciliation.



1949 Reconciliation



Conferences at Caux and similar ones at

Mackinac Island in the US, achieve further

public recognition through several other major

contributions to international developments in

the post-war years. Notably the part played in

the reconciliation of Japan with her South-East

Asian neighbors, and in the achievement of

independence by several African countries

without major bloodshed.



1950 MRA Expands



By the 1950s, casts of plays presenting MRA's

ideas are traveling all over the world. Centers

are established in Latin America, India, Japan

and several countries in Africa.



1961 Buchman Dies



When Buchman dies in 1961, the former British

political journalist Peter Howard assumes the

leadership of MRA, but four years later he too

dies. Without a clearly identified leadership

to ensure cohesion, unresolved differences among

those taking responsibility begins to surface.



1965 Up With People



In some countries a new approach is tried,

concentrating on the younger generation, and

in others more traditional ways continue. Up

With People, which develops into a global

educational program, becomes a spin-off from

MRA. After a period of uncertainty and

dissension, trust is slowly re-established,

with valuable lessons learned.



1968 Asia Plateau



1968 sees the opening of Asia Plateau - a major

international center for the training of people

from industry, education and other national

sectors in Panchgani, India.



1970s Period of Consolidation



With reconciliation a primary need in many parts

of the world, much of MRA's work concentrates on

supporting peace-making initiatives in Africa

and Asia.



1980s Britain



During this period in Britain some of the work

is focused on bettering industrial relations at

the big car and steel manufacturing plants,

important at that time for economic stability,

and some on the growing multiculturalism of

the country's large cities.



1990s Collapse of Communism



The collapse of Communism triggers new needs

and opportunities for the rebuilding of democracy

in the post-Soviet world. This becomes one of

the major focal points in the 90s.



1990s New Initiatives



Other initiatives that develop throughout the

90s are Hope in the Cities, which is created

to bridge the racial divide in the US; Clean

Election Campaigns in Taiwan, Brazil and Kenya;

and a continuing concern for the creation of

moral and spiritual infrastructure for development

in both rich and poorer nations.



2001 Name Change: INITIATIVES OF CHANGE



With the approach of the new millennium, there

is world-wide recognition that the words 'moral

re-armament' no longer hold the same resonance

as they did in 1938. In 2001 the new name

Initiatives of Change (IofC) is announced to

the world's media by the Caux President, Dr.

Cornelio Sommaruga (former President of the

international Red Cross), and Professor

Rajmohan Gandhi, grandson of the Mahatma.



2006 Today



While ways of expressing truth, and methods

of coordinating the global work, continue to

change as succeeding generations take on this

particular responsibility for the moral and

spiritual renewal of society, the essential

philosophy of IofC remains the same - that

personal change can lead to social, economic

and political change. With its emphasis on

experience rather than philosophy, it provides

a focus where people of different religious

and political persuasions can meet without

compromising their own beliefs, and be part

of a global network committed to working for

change in the world.


0 -1 0 0
4025 CBBB164@AOL.COM
Re: Joe and Charlie workshops Joe and Charlie workshops 1/20/2007 2:39:00 PM


No they are not. Joe McQ has become the victim

of Parkinson's disease and was replaced by Joe McC.



Charlie P. recently had a hip replacement and Joe

McC. has had a number of serious health problems.



In God's love and service,



Cliff Bishop

http://www.ppgaadallas.org



- - - - - -



From: Ollie Olorenshaw

ollie_olorenshaw@yahoo.com.au

(ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au)



As far as I am aware Joe and Charlie are no

longer conducting workshops but recordings of

past workshops are available from various places.

Here is one.



www.12steptapes.com



and another



www.xa-speakers.org



best wishes



Ollie


0 -1 0 0
4026 Dan
Old AA meeting in Palos Park Illinois Old AA meeting in Palos Park Illinois 1/21/2007 9:21:00 PM


I belong to a very old AA group and am trying

to figure out how old it is, and any other

information on this group that has been meeting

since at least 1940.



The group is now called the Top of the Hill

Group and meets on Monday nights off Southwest

Highway [Route 7].



Thanx in kind and service



dan babs


0 -1 0 0
4027 Robt Woodson
Re: Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell 1/21/2007 12:51:00 PM


Mike,



You may want to be looking into the story of

Wesley Parrish (Florida) who spearheaded the

movement to purchase and make Dr. Bob's Home

available to all of us, also, two folks around

today that you should interview are Akron

Intergroup's Archivist Gail L. and Don C.,

current Chairman of the Board at Dr. Bob's

House, they were both involved early on, and

should have some very interesting stories to tell.

I imagine that you know Ray G. too, Dr. Bob's

House's Archivist, a lot of materials and

wonderful photographs ar available there.



Dr. Bob's daughter Sue stayed at the York St.

address until the end of her life.



Kay Stewart (Grand Dame of Akron's Flame

Breakfast Group) was active until the end of

her life, serving as a Vice-Chairman on the

Board of the Akron Intergroup Council in her

last years and speaking at the Intergroup's

Anniversary Dinner just before her passing.



Her accomplishments were considerable and I am

sure that her story (and probably that lead) is

available on tape (try contacting the Akron

Intergroup Archives...they are working now to

put together "Voices from the Past" to be

utilized in conjunction with the Archives page

at the AkronAA.org. website and they have an

aggressive program going to digitize remaining

materials for back up use while the originals

are preserved.



Oscar Futrell was the first man in Alcoholics

Annonymous that I ever met...in the Summit

County Jail in 1971...he was quite candid...

I distictly remember him telling me "I believe

that you are an Alcoholic... this program will

save your life...If you don't want what we've

got then go die damn you!!!"



For a long time I never trusted Oscar, whenever

I saw him he was either in a uniform or a suit...

(that same check Jacket in which he apperars in

so many photographs...even at Dr. Bob's graveside

monument with Bill W.) I trust Oscar today...

that is what I have come to understand...



Oscar was sponsored by Dr. Bob and was a great

friend of Bill Wilson..I've been told it was

Oscar that Drove Bill around on his visits to

Akron.



What he "tried" to carry to me was the straight

message of Alcoholic's Annonymous although I

did not understand that then, Guess I was

more interesterd in the doughnuts (glazed),

the "ready-made" cigarettes available at the

meeting and the packs of Bugler Tobacco you

could get if you asked for it...to take back

to the range.



I think the most important thing was perhaps

the fact that going to the meeting allowed me

to communicate with the other inmates from the

different floors of the jail...yes communication

was the great thing then and subtly? I began

to get the message.



This is hearsay, but my Sponsor (who was for many

years the Chairman of the Founders Foundation)

explained to me that at the end of his life

Sgt. Oscar Futrell suffered from alzheimers,

or something similar, and that it was very

difficult and sad when people tried to take

him to meetings.



If you want to contact me directly I will do

what I can to help you....



Be a good guy and keep you powder dry,



Woody in Akron


0 -1 0 0
4029 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House 1/22/2007 2:05:00 PM


Getting feedback about Dr Bob and some amusing

anecdotes about Him, Kay and Oscar. Does anyone

know more about Wesley putting up his own money

to buy Dr.Bob's House and how he was paid back?

This man needs to be given the credit he deserves

if what I am hearing is true.



Having fun in AA,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz



See you in Phoenix Sept.6-9 for the

11th Nat'l Archives Workshop







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4030 frescacan
Mustard Seed Group - Chicago Mustard Seed Group - Chicago 1/22/2007 8:19:00 PM


Does anyone know the address of the first Mustard

Seed Group location?



I know it was in a basement apartment, near Astor

and Division, in Chicago, but I'm really curious

about the exact address.



Thanks.


0 -1 0 0
4031 remcuster@aol.com
Re: Mustard Seed Group - Chicago Mustard Seed Group - Chicago 1/22/2007 4:48:00 PM


Have you checked with the Chicago Area Service

Office @ 312/346-1475 ??



The Area Code may have changed to 773, (it's

been a long time since I've been in touch with

them).



Hank Groat

Piney Flats, TN.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4032 Glenn Chesnut
Frieda M-M Frieda M-M 1/22/2007 10:43:00 PM


From: "Fiona Dodd" <fionadodd@eircom.net>

(fionadodd at eircom.net)



I received the following communiqué from the

Archivist of the Avon South Intergroup on the

passing of Frieda M-M.



On a personal note, the Archivist's parents

were stationed in Washington D.C. during 1941.

(Her brother was born in the Bethesda Military

Hospital two days before Pearl Harbour) There

was a lot of entertaining and inspiration

offered by the British Ambassador and her mother

used to tell of the parties held at the Embassy.

When her mother herself got sober in Alcoholics

Anonymous in Bath in the Eighties, which was

not long before her mother died in 1992, it was

realised that John and Frieda who were Butler

and Housekeeper to the British Ambassador in

Washington would have undoubtedly served her

parents their drinks on many occasions! It was

there that the seeds of her mother's alcoholism

were sown and it was in the Bath group which

John started in 1955 that her mother got sober

twenty-five years later!



John M. served as the first sponsor to Travers

of Bristol until his death in 1964.



Fiona

_ _ _ _ _ _



Frieda M-M



R.I.P.

_ _ _ _ _ _



Only today did the news come of the passing of

Frieda M-M who died on 17th December, 2005.



Frieda was John M's wife and aided all his

efforts to establish Alcoholics Anonymous in

the West Country when they left their employment

with His Excellency the British Ambassador in

Washington and returned to England in 1947 with

his redundancy pay of £100 to seek employment

and carry THIS message. In 1948 John held the

first meeting known in the West Country at

Mickleton, Glos.



John did obtain employment and worked diligently

and in 1955 helped open the Bath Group, along

with Frank HS, Teddy and Joe G (Croydon).



Travers of Bristol (1959) used to describe the

meeting in the front parlour of Frieda's

hairdressing salon being conducted amongst the

old fashioned driers. He also used to tell

of John and Freida's kindness to him in his

own early days.



After hearing much about Al-Anon taking shape

in Canada and the United States, in 1955

Frieda began Al-Anon in Bath (believed to

be the first Al-Anon meeting in England).



John died the day after returning from the

National Convention at Clacton in 1964. Frieda

eventually returned to her native Berne,

Switzerland and while already not young she

began Al-Anon in that city. There was a report

to the Intergroup in the mid-Nineties about an

interview held with Frieda during a visit she

made to her nephews and nieces in the West

Country. She was a most energetitc and charming

lady and kept in close touch over the years with

the editors of the journal, 'Bristol Fashion'.



Her life story is in the Archives. What an

amazing lady, travelling all over the world,

married to John and founding Al-Anon in more

than one country! She would have been a 100

years of age, if not more, when she died!

Surely, she was the last of our founding

members.



The Archivist, Avon South Intergroup, Bristol.


0 -1 0 0
4033 Mike B.
Re:Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House 1/23/2007 10:21:00 AM


<<Does anyone know more about Wesley putting up

his own money to buy Dr.Bob's House and how he

was paid back? >>



I have a letter from Wesley that I received in

July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the

Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed

himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included

a copy of his Concordance, which I have used

many, many times over the years. He was quite

a good member of Alcoholics Anonymous. There was

also a drawing for a 1st edition, 1st printing

of the Big Book as a fund raiser.



Mike Barns









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4034 Diz Titcher
Re: Re:Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House 1/23/2007 2:56:00 PM


Any questions about Wesley can be addressed to

John W. as he is Wesley's oldest sponsee:



JWill60366@aol.com

JWill60366 at aol.com


0 -1 0 0
4035 Sherry C. Hartsell
RE: Wesley Parrish and Dr. Bob''s House Wesley Parrish and Dr. Bob''s House 1/23/2007 2:54:00 PM


I had letters re this deal from Wesley P., he

& old Sherry shared a podium or so back in the

late '70s-80s. Nice fellow, well known here

in Texas and respected as a good member and

speaker, though best known for his efforts with

BB studies; we visited a lot in Colorado and

New Orleans during those Internationals, he

visited in Dallas a few times and we'd talk.



sherry


0 -1 0 0
4036 Bob McK.
Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House 1/26/2007 10:27:00 AM


My background is in archives, not history, and

that makes life easier for us so involved because

we do not have to furnish opinions. A lot of

people were involved in the purchase and

restoration of Dr. Bob's. Indeed anyone who

has ever made a contribution to them (even me,

though a small one) can take credit for this.



What should not be overlooked is the original

sales agreement was signed by Gail La C., the

current Akron AA Archivist, on October 5th, 1984.

Her rear end was on the line for many thousands

of dollars at that point and, while she had

promises that she would not have to come up

with (all of) the money, there are few of us

that would have the courage (and the credit

rating?) to make that big a commitment. Her

contribution should neither be forgotten nor

minimized.


0 -1 0 0
4037 gcb900
Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group 1/25/2007 10:03:00 AM


AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W.

as part of its history. There is also an

important letter where Jung gives his opinion

of the Oxford Group which I believe should be

included among the materials on the AA History

Lovers website, as what others think of AA and

its freedoms is important.





"The group confessions of sects like the Oxford

[Group] Movement are well known; also the cures

at Lourdes, which would be unthinkable without

an admiring public. Groups bring about not only

astonishing cures but equally astonishing

psychic changes and conversions precisely because

suggestibility is heightened ....



"But in view of the notorious tendencies of

people to lean on others and cling to various

-isms instead of finding security and

independence in themselves, which is the prime

requisite, there is danger that the individual

will equate the group with father and mother

and so remain just as dependent, insecure and

infantile as before ....



For what we are dealing with is only the passing

and morally weakening effects of suggestion

(that is why medical psychotherapists, with

few exceptions, have long since abandoned the

use of suggestion therapy).



C. G. Jung, letter to Hans A. Illing,

January 26, 195570


0 -1 0 0
4038 garylock7008
Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 1/24/2007 3:06:00 PM


I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking -

Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter

2006 about the final resting place of Bertha

Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend.



The author of the article - William W., from

New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried

in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents.



[See photo on page three.]



As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill

Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue

of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am

preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA

meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of

that issue Bill discribes his great depression

following Bertha's death, in fact he writes:



"I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard

where the girl was buried, sitting there for

hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly

collapsed."



I wonder if someone could clarify for me how

Bill could leave his school in Manchester,

Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours

in Jeffersonville, Indiana.



Gary


0 -1 0 0
4039 Glenn Chesnut
AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/26/2007 3:03:00 PM


A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes,

"Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of

Texas Press, 2002.



(AA historians should certainly be doing

more work on Spanish-speaking AA, because

Latin America accounts for one third of AA's

membership worldwide.)



John Blair <jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)

sent me the following article about Brandes'

research:



From the Berkeley campus of

the University of California:



http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html



UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's

rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous



30 April 2002



By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations



Berkeley - When University of California,

Berkeley, anthropologist Stanley Brandes was

invited by his Mexico City shoeshine man to

join him at a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous,

the longtime scholar of Spain and Latin America

was a bit surprised, but he immediately agreed.



After attending that first meeting, Brandes

returned for hundreds more over the course of

several years as he launched a detailed

ethnographic study of one AA group among the

thousands flourishing in Mexico and Latin

America. The stories of the men in that group

are told in the just-published, "Staying Sober

in Mexico City" (University of Texas Press).



Latin America is calculated to account for

one-third of AA's membership worldwide, and

El Salvador is said to have the highest AA

membership per capita of any nation. Throughout

Mexico, about 90 percent of AA's members are

male.



Brandes said he was intensely curious to learn

how AA, which in the United States is generally

associated with Protestant faiths and a middle-

class clientele striving to maintain sobriety,

proliferates in a Mexican culture characterized

by ardent Catholicism, poverty and often a

hard-drinking machismo. What he learned, Brandes

said, may add to the understanding of 12-step

groups, in general, and of Latino participation

in such groups.



The first Alcoholics Anonymous groups in Mexico

began in the 1940s with English-speaking,

"gringo" residents of the country. Some 16

years later, records show that the organization

had just three Spanish-speaking AA groups in

that country.



Current estimates, however, indicate that,

today, Mexico City counts more than 1,500 AA

groups and about 300,000 members. In a Mexican

village of 3,000 people where Brandes has long

done anthropological fieldwork, there are at

least two regular AA meeting groups.



Although Alcoholics Anonymous is the subject

of hundreds of books and extensive research,

"Staying Sober" is different because it takes

a single AA group as its subject and deals not

only with the members' ideology, but how AA

works for them through social relationships

and group dynamics.



"I am less interested in therapeutic outcomes

than in the fate of the group itself: in

questions of leadership, social control, and

the identity of individuals as members of the

group," Brandes wrote.



With men comprising the majority of the AA

membership in Mexico and its capital, he said,

an interesting thing happens in the group

meetings as participants redefine what it means

to be a man in Mexico City. (Working-class women

in Mexico are more likely to join Neurotics

Anonymous or Al-Anon, a group for family members

of alcoholics, Brandes said).



"A lot of what goes on in the bars goes on in

the meeting rooms," Brandes said, recalling

meetings of the AA group he called "Moral

Support," where he repeatedly heard men brag

about sexual exploits and misbehavior.



Brandes noted in his book that, although AA is not

allied with any religion, it is often associated

with Protestant faiths because of the religion

of its founders, its somewhat Puritanical focus

on abstinence from drinking, and a linkage of

its 12-step program with a multitude of Biblical

references. Yet, he said, Mexican AA members

have managed to infuse much of the typical

meeting and group structure with popular Catholic

symbolism and form.



One way, Brandes said, is the use of the AA

member's telling of personal stories in a way

similar to Catholic confessionals. Another is

the use of alcohol-free fiestas to celebrate

sobriety anniversaries to mimic the typical

merriment of Catholic celebrations for baptisms,

confirmations, marriages and other events.



Also, Brandes found that the use of "sponsors"

to guide newer AA members has been co-opted by

the Mexicans as the equivalent of religious

godparents, or "padrinos."



"The Moral Support meeting room is certainly not

a church," Brandes wrote. "But, in a number of

ways, it replicates the kind of sacred space

that would be familiar to any Mexican Catholic.

The chairs are arranged, as in any church, in

congregational fashion. The podium functions

as a kind of altar...Sacred texts hanging on the

meeting room walls add to the overall religious

imagery."



So, Brandes said, "To join AA in working-class

Mexico City does not mean abandoning one's

religious tradition. It means adapting it to

the circumstances at hand."



He theorizes that the growth of AA membership

in Mexico is due, in part, to more villagers

heading to urban centers in search of work.

Among these migrants, many workers with drinking

problems turn to Alcoholics Anonymous groups as

substitutes for the familiar, small communities

they lost when they left rural villages or to

replace their drinking buddies.



Surprisingly, AA in Mexico City is anything

but anonymous, and no one seems to mind, Brandes

found. The small storefront meetings he attended

were interrupted by small children racing in

to chase dogs or retrieve balls, and neighbors

looking for each other. Members routinely keep

the meeting entrance open, and passersby can

easily overhear what is said inside, Brandes

said.



This open identification of AA members is

probably the most dramatic difference between

the organization in Mexico and the United

States, he said.



While Brandes still is uncertain about the

effectiveness of AA, he said he did become

"a true Triple A, or Admirer of Alcoholics

Anonymous," in that he held every one of the

members of his group in high esteem and

developed affection for them.



Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, co-director of the

Harvard (University) Immigration Project,

praised "Staying Sober in Mexico City." He

said it likely will become not only the

standard reference on the cultural study of

alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the

best overall social science contributions to

the study of Mexican culture in the last

50 years."



Brandes, a social cultural anthropologist, has

spent more than 30 years in the study of Latin

American and European ethnography, writing

about peasant society and culture, folklore,

symbolism, ritual and religion, as well as

food and drink.



Brandes' future projects will include a study

of Latino AA or 12-step groups in the United

States, as he assesses the impact of migration

on drinking patterns and treatment strategies.

Brandes also is engaged in a long-term study

of the Day of the Dead.



###


0 -1 0 0
4040 hesofine2day
First Black Woman In AA? First Black Woman In AA? 1/24/2007 5:13:00 PM


Does anyone know the identity of the first

black woman in AA?


0 -1 0 0
4041 David Johnson
Re: Later history of the Oxford Group Later history of the Oxford Group 1/23/2007 6:12:00 PM


You write:



> Could AA have in fact remained linked to the

> Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of

> the OG and the way they were evolving?



Evidently Clarence S. felt not ... citing specific

reasons to Dr.Bob (as presented in Mitchell K.'s

"How It Worked) pp.136-141. Then there's "AA

The Story," by Kurtz, pp 45-57, which go into

some detail the myriad reasons why AA naturally

and inevitably separated from the Oxford Group

in order to even proclaim "a primary purpose,"

let alone anonymity, attraction rather than

promotion, no opinion on outside matters, no

outside affiliation, and a God of our own

understanding.



I would also say before we get into a "true

assessment" of the Oxford group-even as it went

through its various permutations, we would do

well to first of all understand the biases of

the Oxford Group, as dominated by Buchman, during

this period of time in the 30's and 40's.



For example: From "What is the Oxford Group,"

1933, P. 6:"Their aim is A New World Order for

Christ, the King," and "The Oxford Group works

within churches of all denominations, planning

to bring those outside back into their folds

and to re-awaken those within to their

responsibilities as Christians."



Then there's their strategy of trying to bring

the "movers and shakers" into the fold so that

"money, property and prestige" might serve to

influence the masses more quickly.



Then there's the Oxford Group's take on

homosexuality: "There are many who wear suede

shoes who are not homosexual, but in Europe

and America the majority of homosexuals do.

They favor green as a color in clothes and

decorations. Men are given to an excessive

display and use of the handkerchief. They tend

to let the hair grow long, use scent and are

frequently affected in speech, mincing in gait

and feminine in mannerisms. They are often very

gifted in the arts. They tend to exhibitionism.

They can be cruel and vindictive, for sadism

usually has a homosexual root. They are often

given to moods....There is an unnecessary

touching of hands, arms and shoulders. In the

homosexual the elbow grip is a well-known sign.

Of course, they were condemned.

(See Remaking Men, Paul Campbell, M.D. and

Peter Howard, 1954, pages 60-62.)



Probably the most famous of the Buchman

utterances:



"On returning from Europe, Frank Buchman, Oxford

group revivalist, is quoted by a reputable New

York paper as having said: "I thank heaven for

a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front-line

defense against the anti-Christ of communism....

My barber in London told me Hitler saved all

Europe from communism. That's how he felt. Of

course I don't condone everything the Nazis do.

Antisemitism? Bad, naturally. I suppose Hitler

sees a Karl Marx in every Jew. But think what

it would mean to the world if Hitler surrendered

to the control of God. Or Mussolini. Or any

dictator. Through such a man God could control

a nation overnight and solve every last

bewildering problem."



"In this interview the social philosophy of the

Oxford group, long implicit in its strategy,

is made explicit, and revealed in all its

childishness and viciousness. This philosophy

has been implicit in Buchmanite strategy from

the beginning. It explains the particular

attention which is paid by Mr. Buchman and his

followers to big men, leaders, in industry and

politics. The idea is that if the man of power

can be converted, God will be able to control

a larger area of human life through his power

than if a little man were converted. This is

the logic which has filled the Buchmanites

with touching solicitude for the souls of such

men as Henry Ford or Harvey Firestone and

prompted them to whisper confidentially from

time to time that these men were on the very

threshold of the kingdom of God. It is this

strategy which prompts or justifies the first-

class travel of all the Oxford teams. They hope

to make contact with big men in the luxurious

first-class quarters of ocean liners."



Excerpted from "Christianity and Power Politics"

by Reinhold Niebuhr, the eminent theologian who

is associated with The Serenity Prayer. This

appears to be a word-for-word reprint of

Niebuhr's criticism of Buchman that first

appeared in The Christian Century magazine,

October 7, 1936, pages 1315 and 1316.



Isolated thought? Not really. Here's another:

"... Human problems aren't economic. They're

moral and they can't be solved by immoral measures.

They could be solved within a God-controlled

democracy, or perhaps I should say a theocracy,

and they could be solved through a God-controlled

Fascist dictatorship."



Initiatives of Change, the Oxford group's latest

reincarnation, seems admirably multi-cultural

and focused on the the interpersonal and what

each of us can do to make the world a better

place. In addition, there are stories where

such changes have taken place with some idea

of how they've occurred. It seems that the

insistence upon change from the "top down"

and Jesus Christ as the only way have been

dropped. More power to them.


0 -1 0 0
4042 Cheryl F
Wesley P''s concordance Wesley P''s concordance 1/23/2007 4:02:00 PM


Does any one know where I can get a complete

concordance like the one referred to below?



Cheryl Fitzsimmons

http://my2.tupperware.com/CherylFitz



-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007

To: AA History Lovers

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Wesley Parrish

and Dr Bob's House



I have a letter from Wesley that I received in

July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the

Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed

himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included

a copy of his Concordance, which I have used

many, many times over the years.



Mike Barns


0 -1 0 0
4043 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House 1/26/2007 6:53:00 PM


In reference to the post by bobnotgod and his

statement that Gail L. signed for the mortgage

in 1984, I doubt that it was Gail L. of Akron

Archives. I've met her several times and I'm

sure she would have been a teenager in 1984 and

unable to sign a mortgage. (Aren't I a diplomat!)



Perhaps another AAHL can shed some more light

on that.



I have a copy of the Extensions newsletter

from the Founders Foundation dated Jan. 1988

that says “The Home is Now Ours." It has a

picture of a ceremonial mortgage burning with

Don C., Kurt S., Kay S., Mel B., K-C S., Ron S.,

and Joe G. The article states, “The home is

now ours! The Mortgage Has Been Paid."



In the newsletter entitled Founders Foundation

News the Articles of Incorporation are listed

and show Sue S. Windows, Kay S., and Joseph G.

as the initial trustees. It is dated Jan. 14,

1985. Was the house paid off in 3 years?



In reference to trying to find out more about

Wesley P, Kay and Oscar -- I received many

e-mails -- thank you to Sherry, Old Bill, Don B

(who will be a speaker at the next Founder's Day

on Saturday afternoon), Tommy H., Woody of

Akron and Diz T. Diz referred me to the next

best thing than the horses' mouth; he sent me to

his sponcee John W. and he has sent me the

following which he has allowed me to share with

you.



Dear Mike,



Wes was upset when he heard the news that Dr.

Bob's home was in bad shape and was in danger

of being bulldozed to make room for a parking

lot. The mortgage that existed at that time was

rather small as I remember but Wes felt that

interested members of AA should participate in

the purchase and it should be done outside of AA.

He was in Pompano but he had plenty of support

in Akron and he was asked to be the "point" man

and raise the funds to pay off the mortgage. He

took on the assignment and Wes had a lot of

friends whose wealth had increased because of

sobriety and Wes asked for contributions and

of course they responded.



He also conducted a raffle of a first edition

Big Book with Bill Wilson's and Ebby Thatcher's

signature on the inside covers. The tickets

were sold for $25.00 per chance and plenty were

sold. If you purchased a ticket, Wes would

send you back a concordance to the Big Book and

12x12 to acknowledge receipt of your purchase.

Wes died in November, 1985 and the drawing was

set for January, 1986. I had Wesley's widow,

Rena, draw the winning ticket and I presented

the book to Ray G. in St. Petersburg in February,

1986. I don't think Ray was ever the same after

that as he and his wife have become archivist

for Dr. Bob's home.



Charlie P. from Maysville, AR became the chief fund

raiser after that and has been successful at

getting a principal of close to $500.00 so that

the interest is divided each year between Dr.

Bob's home and Bill's birthplace in East Dorset,

VT.



Wes never purchased the mortgage although he

could have. He thought it better to have

interested members contribute so that it would

be a collective effort which seems to work

best with AA members. Wes was quite a salesman

and got the job started.



Kay and Wes were good buddies and all of that

committee worked very hard to achieve something

really great for the members of AA. Wes would

keep me posted as to the progress in our daily

conversations if anything significant occurred

in Akron. He was pleased with the progress

and on the evening of his death, according to

Rena, he had been on the phone to Akron before

he retired for the night and later died in

his sleep.



I understand his picture is displayed somewhere

in the home and as is with most of what Wes

stood for, he's just as happy to remain anonymous.

All of those involved know the part he played

and as the one who started the Founder's

Foundation, it goes on and the homes can never

be taken away.



As ever,

John W.



The original mortgage for the house was $38,000

according to the Founders Foundation news. The

lending institution was the First National Bank,

Akron, Ohio, and the rate was 1 1/2 % over the

prime interest rate. The down payment was 25% or

$9,500.00. It was a commercial loan and they

also had to pay 2 points ($570.00) plus closing

costs (~$500.00). The monthly payment was

$360.00 per month for 15 years plus taxes and

insurance. The law required 5 people to sign for

it and the committee thought the house would

cover any risk involved by those 5 people.

Tradition Six was not broken by the members

having a Foundation and as Kay said "Come home

often, it’s yours," "The Home of Dr. Bob is

yours," "God will do the impossible."



John also shared, "Wes started a big book study

on January 5, 1976, and that group has evolved

into the Wednesday Night Study Group in Pompano

Beach. Since I was there when it started and

was part of the group until I moved to

Tallahassee last summer, I know its history.

Wes was also responsible for getting the Big

Book Seminars and Studies off the ground. As

I was his pigeon, I saw this all unfold and

fortunately for me, Wes asked me to be part of

the program."



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz



See Ya in Phoenix Sept.6-9 at the

11th National Archives Convention.


0 -1 0 0
4044 erb2b
Purchasing Dr Bobs House... Purchasing Dr Bobs House... 1/26/2007 5:09:00 PM


Greetings.... I have heard this story quite a

few times from my Grandsponsor( Alf S.) who

also contributed to the funds along with his

good friend Wesley P. in the house purchase

along with a few others.



He's still alive and in the nursing home. I see

him every so often he's 92 and still has some

stories to tell myself and others. He was a Panel

Delegate and came into the Oxford Group in 1934.



THX! Corey F.


0 -1 0 0
4045 Mel Barger
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 1/27/2007 9:29:00 AM


Hi Gary,

I was one of the authors of "Pass It On," so

I had the same question you posed here. I

concluded that Bertha's body was temporarily

stored in a vault before being taken to

Jeffersonville for a later service and burial.

It's also possible that she might have been

buried in Manchester and then exhumed and

reburied in Jeffersonville. I also understand

that winter burials are delayed in part of New

England because the ground is frozen over. I

think that was the case when Bill died in

January, but was not buried in East Dorset

until spring.



Incidentally, I asked a good friend in

Louisville, Paul L., to make a search for

Bertha's grave back in 1980. He was a very

capable man and made a diligent search, but

couldn't find it. So we have to give William

W. high marks for this successful search.

We should also thank Amy Filliatreau, the

new archivist, for getting the photo. She

was visiting in Louisville and went over and

snapped it on her own.



Mel Barger



melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4046 johnpublico
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 1/27/2007 10:32:00 AM


Gary,



Bertha died on November 19th, 1912 at the Flower

Hospital in New York City. Her death certificate

indicates she died during surgery to remove a

sarcoma of the right kidney.



She was interred at Walnut Ridge Cemetery in

Jeffersonville, Indiana (across the river from

Louisville, KY) on November 28, 1912.



Robert Thomsen, in his book "Bill W", indicates

that Bertha's body laid in an above-ground crypt

(the earth too frozen for burial) at the Factory

Point Cemetery (in Dorsett, VT) that winter. But

this seens unlikely since only 9 days separated

her death in Manhattan and burial in Indiana.



Bill's account makes for an impelling story.

I take it as only that.



John K.



- - - -



From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)



Please read pg. 36 in Pass It On. She was buried

in Jeffersonville, Indiana.



yis

Shakey Mike Gwirtz



- - - -



From: "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)



"I wonder if someone could clarify for me

how Bill could leave his school in Manchester,

Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours

in Jeffersonville, Indiana."



The same way that many other so-called "facts"

are presented in AA literature -- it sounds

better than the truth. (Or ... there are lots

of other women by that same name in the world.)



- - - -



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com "garylock7008"

<garylock7008@...> wrote:

>

> I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking -

> Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter

> 2006 about the final resting place of Bertha

> Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend.

>

> The author of the article - William W., from

> New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried

> in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents.

>

> [See photo on page three.]

>

> As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill

> Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue

> of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am

> preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA

> meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of

> that issue Bill discribes his great depression

> following Bertha's death, in fact he writes:

>

> "I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard

> where the girl was buried, sitting there for

> hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly

> collapsed."

>

> I wonder if someone could clarify for me how

> Bill could leave his school in Manchester,

> Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours

> in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

>

> Gary

>


0 -1 0 0
4047 Maria Swora
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/27/2007 8:12:00 AM


I reviewed this book for American Ethnologist.

It's an online review:



http://www.aaanet.org/aes/bkreviews/result_details.cfm?bk_id=632



It's a really good book.



Maria



Maria G. Swora, Ph.D. MPH

Department of Sociology

Benedictine College

Atchison, Kansas 66002



- - - -



Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes,

"Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of

Texas Press, 2002.



John Blair <jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)

sent me the following article about Brandes'

research:



From the Berkeley campus of

the University of California:



http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html



UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's

rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous



30 April 2002



By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations

________________________________________



The full text of Kathleen Maclay's article

is given in AAHistoryLovers Message 4039:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4039

________________________________________


0 -1 0 0
4048 Tom White
Could AA and the OG have stayed together? Could AA and the OG have stayed together? 1/27/2007 4:10:00 PM


Dear Glenn:



I was much stimulated by your first question

below to think about whether or not AA and the

OG might have stuck together. I think not,

because each was, from fairly early times, on

a quite clearly different track to the future.

My remarks here are based on much reading

about AA, and about the OG and its successor

organizations, and on considerable personal

knowledge of AA and its history. But in the

end I am writing here essentially just my own

impressions and theories. The hypothetical

question as to whether the two groups could

have stuck together is really unanswerable

because what happened is that they did not,

and real history, real events, are irreversible.

One can't step in the same river twice.



First, look at the leaders. Buchman and Wilson

both had extraordinary spiritual experiences

of the transformative type so well described in

James's "Varieties of Religious Experience"

and Bucke's "Cosmic Consciousness." Both men

came out of their brief but intense illuminations

with completely changed characters. Both became

strong, magnetic leaders, originators of world-

changing movements. Neither had been that

before the experiences, although they were

both thought highly talented in various ways.

It was perhaps inevitable that two such "large"

men would bump heads when it finally came to

a showdown over their ideas.



But having cited some equivalencies, I now

suggest some strong differences:



Buchman (1878-1961) was Bill's (1895-1970) senior

by 17 years; he was one year older than Dr. Bob.

Buchman's spiritual experience in 1908, when he

was 30, antedated Bill's in 1934 (when Bill was 38)

by 26 years. Buchman was established as a leader

with an international group in existence when

"the alcoholic squad," led by Bill and Dr. Bob

formed itself in Akron under OG auspices in

late 1935.



AA ideas would not come together and be presented

to the public for several more years; the Big

Book ("Alcoholics Anonymous") was published in

1939. But AA's "Big Book," was more completely

an action program, and a more detailed one than

the OG ever printed, despite the immense amount

of often excellent OG literature that was created

over many years. Of course AA's Big Book was

based largely on Oxford Group principles, but

already somewhat modified to fit the AA

circumstance.



Both groups depended, to begin with, on one-on-one

personal contacts more than on anything written

to accomplish their goals. In the matter of

movement goals, of course, is where major

differences arose. Buchman aimed at all men

(meant in the sense of all men and women); Bill

and Dr. Bob (mostly, as far as the public was

concerned Bill's silent partner) soon realized

—- as early as their months together in Akron

in the summer of '35 —- that they were out after

only their fellow alcoholics. I seem to recall

reading that Buchman disapproved of such

"specialism" and told the alkies that, perhaps

through Sam Shoemaker.



Buchman and the OG generally operated on the

theory that if they could change "leaders" and

otherwise important people ("key people" in

their expression), the mass of people would

ultimately tend to change with them. There is

no reason to say they were essentially wrong.

Protestantism advanced because some German

princes took it up, and their people followed

them. My impression has been that all through

their changes of name and policies and

locations, this emphasis by the OG on "changing

leaders first" has stayed constant. As has the

emphasis on publishing their successes on the

world stage, so that their movement might

grow and make beneficial changes in the lives

of many everywhere, and not unimportantly,

lead to significant donations to the OG work.

The OG published and reiterated its successes

among the prestigious and powerful to the point

of turning off many; I expect Bill and Bob were

among those turned off by this extravagance.

Even when AA collected some "celebrities" there

was no desire by AA to capitalize on their

attachment; some early "anonymity-breakers"

among that population were thought actually

harmful to the fellowship.



One can perhaps put it this way: Buchman's traits

included an extravagance of language when making

claims for his OG (and later MRA); he was often

accused of being extravagant in his style of

living -— expensive clothing, "posh" hotels,

luxurious traveling. He, in fact, owned very

little personal property, so there was a

principled side to his methods; his expenses were

for his work. His style was rather derivative

of Philadelphia, a city of great wealth and even

elegance, under the English Quakers and Protestant

Germans who settled in Pennsylvania. Whereas

Bill and Bob for all their education and urban

sophistication retained through their lives a

kind of "Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter" outlook

that disliked ostentation, bragging, and

extravagance, without, I think, their ever

being cheapskates.



Bill and AA ultimately went in quite an opposite

direction from the OG organizationally: personal

anonymity, meaning there would be no publicity

sought for big-name adherents of their cause,

no money sought from anyone not an alcoholic,

no expensive buildings and "centers," none of

the trappings of institutional wealth for any

aspect of AA itself, however the individual

members might disport themselves.



But perhaps the biggest difference between the

two groups and their founding leaders was in

their handling of the twin problems of leadership

(that "L" word again) and succession that beset

every social movement.



Buchman stayed in charge of the OG/MRA until his

death in 1961. He had delegated Peter Howard,

an Englishman, as his successor. Howard died

unexpectedly in Lima, Peru, in 1965. (I have run

across at least one writer who thinks Howard

was murdered. He did not say who, supposing the

suspicion were correct, might have done it, or

why.) Howard's death precipitated a leadership

crisis in MRA, which was ultimately solved by

the movement's heavyweights (a board of directors

or trustees presumably) which instituted a change

of policies. These in turn have led, whether or

not deliberately I do not know, to the essential

disappearance of the organization from the U.S.

and Britain, and developments towards the East

(India) and South (Africa) from their long-time

European HQ at Caux, Switzerland. A name change

to Initiates of Change occurred along the way.



Bill Wilson's solution to the leadership-succession

problem seems, by contrast, extraordinarily

successful —- so far. Way back in the 1940s he

had complained in the Grapevine that he wished

he and Bob could "join AA." He was lamenting

their lionization and consequent isolation as

"founders." Surely Bob had no heart for

lionization at all; he firmly declined some

Akron AAs' proposal for a stately mausoleum for

him and Anne, and he told Bill he thought they

both should be buried "like other folks."



Bob spoke for the last time at the 1950

International Conference in Cleveland. By 1955

Bill had made his decision: he would foreclose

the founder/Big Shot role in AA for (he hoped)

all time. He stepped down as founder-leader at

the 1955 "Coming of Age" Conference at St. Louis

(marvelously reported on by him in "AA Comes

of Age") and "turned the movement over to the

members." He worked at getting a majority of

alcoholics on the GSO board of trustees and at

starting the annual GSO delegates meeting in

New York City every April, and, in the Third

(Service) Legacy, he accomplished two things of

major importance (among other things): (1) he,

as it were, wrote out of AA's permanent structure

any need for, or means to achieve, replacements

of himself and Bob; there would be no "designated

successor" to them as there had been to Buchman

in OG/MRA, and (2) he deposited all authority

and power in the individual AA Group; there

would be no rule "from the top," as in the

OG/MRA. The NYC HQ would be subservient to the

Delegates's conferences and ultimately only a

publishing, not a control, operation. This he

clearly hoped would squeak AA safely around the

bugaboo that assails all top-down organizations

like governments and churches, namely the rise

and steadily increasing empowerment of an HQ

bureaucracy.



As to that there is Mosca's Iron Law to keep in

mind, which runs to the effect that all

organizations (top-down rule assumed) end up

ultimately serving the people who run it rather

than the mission it was originally set up to

serve.



The Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter master publicist,

lawyer, speculator, magnetic leader, etc., etc.,

did his level best to protect AA from the

future's swollen egos, and even, as he said,

from himself; he lived 16 years past his

step-down as leader and never made any attempts,

so far as I know, to reassert himself as the

man in charge. It was quite a wondrous working,

a very rare case of selflessness.



- - - -



On Jan 22, 2007, at 11:33 AM, Glenn Chesnut wrote:



> There is a nice little summary of the later

> history of the Oxford Group at:

>

> http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/index.php?sn=2,2#top

>

> Could AA have in fact remained linked to the

> Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of

> the OG and the way they were evolving? In AA,

> we tend to focus only on the parts of the Oxford

> Group that we are interested in, and ignore

> other things that were essential parts of the

> movement.

>


0 -1 0 0
4049 Mitchell K.
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/27/2007 6:28:00 PM


I believe I met Stanley Brandes in 1997 at a seminar

held at Brown University in 1997. He was discussing

his work in Mexico at that time.



I wonder if the finished product included Seccion

Mexico which is a true Fellowship of the Spirit in

Mexico where they are living the Traditions and freely

carrying the message to all who seek recovery.



- - - - - -



Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



> A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes,

> "Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of

> Texas Press, 2002.

>

> John Blair <jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)

> sent me the following article about Brandes'

> research:

>

> From the Berkeley campus of

> the University of California:

>

>

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html

>

> UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's

> rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous

>

> 30 April 2002

>

> By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations


0 -1 0 0
4050 Angela Corelis
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/27/2007 7:30:00 PM


Hola,



I read that book review in 2002 and reacted in

horror at how misleading his perceptions were.

Trying to fit AA into preconceived ethnological/

anthropological parameters. His observations

may be true for the group he observed, but it

is misleading to say it applies to all AA in

Mexico.



My first 8 years of sobriety (sobriety date

Sept 6, 1986) were almost exclusively in Spanish

language meetings in the Mexican states of

Michoacan, Sinaloa, Nayarit and Jalisco,

including a national AA convention in Mexico

City.



My personal observations of these meetings are

not in agreement with his. (I have a degree

in Art History/Anthropology from UC Berkeley).

I had planned to order the book and see for

myself ... but that idea faded ... now will

do it...the reviewer may have made mistatements.



It is mileading what Marcelo Suarez-Orozco,

co-director of the Harvard (University)

Immigration Project, said when he praised

"Staying Sober in Mexico City." He said it

likely will become not only the standard

reference on the cultural study of

alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the

best overall social science contributions to

the study of Mexican culture in the last

50 years," with the study of one group.



It is similar to a non AA making a study of

an AA group in a small town in the US and

calling it "the standard reference on the

cultural study of alcoholism in the US."



Yes. Photos of Bill W and Dr. Bob often have

candles and flowers placed below them. I have

not noticed the Mexicans being any more boastful

than American men on their sexual prowess or

manliness. Guadalajara had six Women´s AA groups

in 1988, now who knows, I attended most of them.

Now living in Puerto Vallarta, I have attended

three different Mexican all Women AA groups.



I have had the opportunity to travel with Mexican

AA carrying the message to Isla Marias Penal

Colony 1,500 men and 53 women ... to work with

the women. Here, almost to a person, the

prisoners had been incarcerated for a crime

committed while drunk.



To Sierra Madre mountain villages outside of

Guadalajara ... 1/2 hour by twin engine plane

the 15 minutes. Here we helped form a new AA

group, they had been meeting for a years, but

were not a registered group. And did not

perceive the same things as Mr. Brandes.



Angela Corelis

Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco

Mexico



P.S. Just finished a presentation on AA History

in Mexico at the 5th Annual Sobriety Under the

Sun AA Conference in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico,

January 26, 27, 28, 2007.



I asked Fernando Q. (25 years sober) to present

the same talk he gave on that topic at the

International AA Convention in San Diego. Plus

invited local English speaking Mexican AA member

(4 years sober, but interviewed Pedrito the only

still living founder of Spanish language AA in

Vallarta) to present the history of Mexican AA

in Vallarta and Ray (30 years sobriety, visiting

Vallarta for 6 months each year since sober) to

present the history of English Language AA in

Vallarta.


0 -1 0 0
4051 teeper@comcast.net
Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 1/29/2007 11:28:00 AM


AAHL,



A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically

in either the Big Book or the 12&12 if the subject

of refraining from relationships (or any other

thing that might interfere with sobriety) for

the first year or so.



That's the general wisdom of my home group

and I've heard that advice given before, but

I don't know if it's ever been addressed in

any Conference-approved literature, or on this

site, for that matter.



Any help would be greatly appreciated!



Spiritus contra spiritum!

Terry P.


0 -1 0 0
4052 Barry Murtaugh
Twelve Steps and the Older Member Twelve Steps and the Older Member 1/30/2007 12:01:00 AM


Hi Folks,



Here on my desk is a paperback with a blue

coated stock cover with the numeral "12" in

gold on it, upper right corner.



Cover is glued to stapled text pages, 5 1/2"

x 7 1/8"



Inside is the title page:

"TWELVE STEPS and the older Member"



Publisher line is:

"Older Member Press,Box 25, Guilford, Conn"



Copyright page:

"Copyright 1964 by Older Member Press

First Serial rights granted A.A. Grapevine

1954 through 1963; all other rights retained

by copyright owner.

First Printing June, 1964.

Library of Congress catalog number:64-22572

Price Two Dollars"



Great lines from the intro:



"The newest newcomer is just as authentically

an explorer into the infinite as were Bill and

Bob when they founded AA on June 10,1935.

Nobody can take the Tweve Steps for anybody

else. Each individual who sets his foot on

the road suggested by the Steps finds himself

on his own endlessly challenging, sometime

perilous journey into undiscovered territory."



In Gratitude 12/24/06

Happy Christmas from Barrington, IL

Barry



Barry Murtaugh

CMLJBM@VOYAGER.NET


0 -1 0 0
4053 John Seibert
RE: Wesley P''s concordance Wesley P''s concordance 1/29/2007 8:32:00 AM


Cheryl,



I have a dictionary/concordance that is prooduced

by an outfit called the "Big Book Dictionary."

It was given me by a friend. Their web site is



http://www.bigbookdictionary.com



It is conveniently sized to fit inside the Big

Book and is current for the 4th edition - the

first 192 pages [through Dr Bob's Story].

Currently their price is $4.00 each and that

includes shipping.



In Love,



John S.



- - - -



From: "Bob S." <rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)



Question: "Does any one know where I can get

a complete concordance like the one referred

to below?"



Answer:

A Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous

By Stephen and Frances E. Poe



Purple Salamander Press

1625 Heitman Court

Reno, NV 89509



This book is nearly 1000 pages - I have found

it very useful.



Bob S.



- - - -



From: "momaria33772" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>

(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)



I'm not sure specifically which Concordance is

referred to here, however, my friend Ray G.,

the Dr. Bob's Home archivist,is a snow bird

here in Florida.



He has a few copies of the huge blue hardcover

available, this is written by Stephen Poe

printed by Purple Salamander press 1990.


0 -1 0 0
4054 corafinch
Re: Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group 1/30/2007 8:24:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com "gcb900"

<Baileygc23@...> wrote:

>

> AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W.

> as part of its history. There is also an

> important letter where Jung gives his opinion

> of the Oxford Group which I believe should be

> included among the materials on the AA History

> Lovers website, as what others think of AA and

> its freedoms is important.

>



Jung's thinking did go through some changes over

time, and he seems to have been a little more

positive, or at least less negative, about the

OG during the 1920s. In the "Collected Letters"

there is an early letter mentioning the Groups,

which was apparently written to a member of his

extended family or a close friend (I assume

this because he signed it "Carl" which he almost

never did). The person had already become

involved with the OG and Jung made the observation

that, for that particular person at least, Group

involvement was probably a good thing. The

recipient of the letter is not identified, and

the endorsement -- if endorsement is even the

right term -- is certainly tentative.



In the 1930s, Jung became critical or even

contemptuous of the Groups. The reason may have

been partially a personal one. A friend and

colleague, Alphonse Maeder, had become involved

with the Groups in the mid-20s. Maeder was one

of the few men in the analytic community with

whom Jung remained on good terms over a long

period of time, probably because Maeder had

an easy-going personality and more humility

than most people in the field.



The two of them eventually parted company,

primarily because Jung wanted Maeder to take

on the leadership of a professional organization

with Nazi connections. Maeder's excuse (purposely

lame?) was that he was devoting too much time

to the OG to take on anything else. This may

have contributed to Jung's disapproval of the

Group.



So the situation is as usual a little complicated.

Certainly Jung's distrust of "group think," the

psychology of crowds, was consistent thoughout

his career. So it is understandable that he

would have questioned the wisdom of joining an

organization like the Oxford Group.



Cora


0 -1 0 0
4055 mec569
re:Wesley P. Concordance Wesley P. Concordance 1/31/2007 8:50:00 PM


I have used the Hazelden index cost about 3.00 at my Central

Office/intergroup. I use a Concordance that include words in context

for the Twelve and Twelve and Big Book called "164 and More" compiled

and edited by Ralph T.



The website for it is excellent and is as follows:



http:\\www.164andMore.com



The book sells for 15.00 post-paid and has been a great resource for me

during book studies and the like. Yours in Service,

Brewster B.


0 -1 0 0
4056 t
Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 1/30/2007 3:33:00 PM


Try the 12&12 on page 119:



"A.A. has many single alcoholics who wish to

marry and are in a position to do so. Some

marry fellow A.A.'s. How do they come out? On

the whole these marriages are very good ones.

Their common suffering as drinkers, their

common interest in A.A. and spiritual things,

often enhance such unions. It is only where

'boy meets girl on A.A. campus,' and love

follows at first sight, that difficulties may

develop. The prospective partners need to be

solid A.A.'s and long enough acquainted to know

that their compatibility at spiritual, mental,

and emotional levels is a fact and not wishful

thinking. They need to be as sure as possible

that no deep-lying emotional handicap in either

will be likely to rise up under later pressures

to cripple them. The considerations are equally

true and important for the A.A.'s who marry

'outside' A.A. With clear understanding and

right, grown-up attitudes, very happy results

do follow."

__________________________________



---- a year might be rushing it! to achieve

that compatibility at spiritual, mental and

emotional levels ... rule out any deep lying

emotional handicaps... gain clear understanding

and right grown-up attitudes.





teeper@comcast.net wrote:



>AAHL,

>

> A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically

>in either the Big Book or the 12&12 if the subject

>of refraining from relationships (or any other

>thing that might interfere with sobriety) for

>the first year or so.

>

> That's the general wisdom of my home group

>and I've heard that advice given before, but

>I don't know if it's ever been addressed in

>any Conference-approved literature, or on this

>site, for that matter.

>

>


0 -1 0 0
4057 Mel Barger
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 1/30/2007 3:51:00 PM


Hi John,



Thanks for this additional information about

Bertha Bamford's death and burial.



Since Bill talked about mourning by her burial

place, I take it that he went out to the above-

ground vault several times before she was taken

to Jeffersonville. Bill had a tendency to

exaggerate certain facts (though not deliberately)

and I believe that this memory bcame somewhat

expanded as he recalled that dark period in his

life.



Mel Barger



melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)



----- Original Message -----

From: johnpublico

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:32 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Bertha Bamford's grave in Indiana???





Gary,



Bertha died on November 19th, 1912 at the Flower

Hospital in New York City. Her death certificate

indicates she died during surgery to remove a

sarcoma of the right kidney.



She was interred at Walnut Ridge Cemetery in

Jeffersonville, Indiana (across the river from

Louisville, KY) on November 28, 1912.



Robert Thomsen, in his book "Bill W", indicates

that Bertha's body laid in an above-ground crypt

(the earth too frozen for burial) at the Factory

Point Cemetery (in Dorsett, VT) that winter. But

this seens unlikely since only 9 days separated

her death in Manhattan and burial in Indiana.



Bill's account makes for an impelling story.

I take it as only that.



John K.


0 -1 0 0
4058 Maria Swora
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/30/2007 4:14:00 PM


I never got the impression that Brandes believed

that his study of one AA group represented all

of AA in Mexico. I don't think one could write

any one work that would accurately depict as

diverse a group/community/fellowship as AA. But

there are some important core values that are

actively adapted by members to their local

contexts. I find his work valuable for two

reasons. First, the ethnographic (not

ethnological) study of one AA group provides

us with a wealth of rich comparative material.

If we disagree with it, more work needs to be

done - other groups, the same at a different

time, etc. That is how science works - through

a disciplinary community that is self-critical

and open to correction and growth. Second, I

though Brandes' analysis and description of

the articulation of that particular group in

that particular context, both local and cultural,

was very good. And it is about time that someone

recognized that gender affects men as well

as women.



One concern I have. I am a nonalcoholic who

carried out an ethnographic study of AA in one

city, and wrote a dissertation about it. I

broadened by material with speaker tapes from

all over the United States, but I never claimed

that I produced a comprehensive study of AA. I

do think I did a good job, even though I'd be

the first to admit I can't claim to "grok" what

it is like to be an alcoholic, sober or not.

However, I've been told by a few AA members

that I have no right or business to try to

understand the fellowship and its program

because I am not a member. I disagree. That's

like telling an anthropologist that he/she can't

do an ethnographic study of another society or

cultural group because he/she is not a native.



Maria S., Friend of Friends of Bill


0 -1 0 0
4059 Robt Woodson
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 2/1/2007 10:07:00 AM


Hola Amigo's



Thanks to John and to Glenn, also to Angela,

Maria (appreciated your review), and Mitchell.

I had written this before their postings appeared.

I think I have to agree with Angela that Brandes's

perception is very different from my own.



That was a very interesting article, It's hard

to tell, but I think perhaps that Brandes is

not AA hImself...it would seem to me that several

of these observations seem to have been shaped

by a premiss, regarding a Protestant/Catholic

antipathy. By way of observation, my visits

to Alcoholics Anonymous Groups in Mexico have

shown me that "A Power greater than myself", in

fact, a Power greater than Protestant Christianity

or Catholicism, is no doubt at work in the rooms

of Alcoholics Anonymous in the world today. I

particularly note the idea that "Mexican" meeting

rooms (as opposed to our own?) are set up to

emulate "sacred space" ... true perhaps, but

I'd say that they resemble any large meeting

room anywhere in the world (as do ours) for

that matter, I think, it is quite possible

today that the nature and arrangement of common

meeting rooms have been influenced as much by

AA as the other way around. I've had the

opportunity to travel on three separate

occasions into Mexico, including Mexico City,

all in the service of Alcoholics Anonymous.

In that regard I have been very fortunate

indeed.



Having been in a lot of meeting rooms in

Mexico, I'd say the most distinctive feature

about their meeting rooms is the inclusion

amidst the seating chairs of a number of,

often identical, one or two tiered "occaisional

tables" to accomodate coffee, water, tea and

sometimes cakes or snacks ... these are served

with gusto throughout the meeting and are not

considered as interuptions in the slightest.

The Membership reminds me of what I believe

our own earlier AA must have been like. They

are very concerned with helping one another to

grow and to flourish in AA ... the role of the

Padrino (Sponsor) is taken seriously as is the

role of the Ahijado (Sponsee). I am myself a

Padrino today, as well as a Sponsor here in

our own country. Another marvel of the

internet, and another blessing to be sure.



Rather than a Churchlike atmosphere, I'd say

a typical Mexican Meeting Room resembles a kind

of living room oriented in one particular

direction, most often with a podium and a desk

(also prominent) at the focal point of the room

... (a reminder perhaps that the speaker or

speakers are only a part of the business of the

meeting which is controlled by the secretary

seated there)...and with Coffee and water being

served about you it is sometimes like an Airline

flight in progress. Any resemblance to a

Church layout or to a "Confessional" approach

to speaking could certainly be made with English

speaking AA as well and certainly belies the

idea of the overwhelming influence of either

Christian or Catholic religions. I don't know

of any wall decor more prevalent than the

slogans, (these, as printed by both AAWS and

the Mexican GSO's may appear "Catholic" to some

due to their use of Gothic Script) and, as a

matter of course in Mexican meeting rooms the

"Responsibility Statement", is displayed

prominently, often taking the place of the

Serenity Prayer in English speaking or

"American" meeetings. The "Responsibility

Statement" is taken very seriously by the

members of every group that i've had the good

fortune to visit. Our Hispanic members are

wonderful people with admirable sense of

concern for one another. A visit to Mexico

has the spiritual effect on me of attending

an AA "Revival".



While I don't know the exact ratio of men to

women in Mexican AA, I've never noticed any

noticeable shortage of ladies present, to the

contrary, I've met a good number of very active

women in the meetings there.



Finally, regarding the "male" nature of the

comments overheard at meetings, it seems to me

that men tend to talk that way amongst themselves

all over the world, (I often wonder what the

women talk about?), and, of course, we are each

of us, in varying stages of recovery ourselves,

especially with regard to our consideration

for others. Is there really a dual standard in

effect here, and if so, is it a cultural,

thing, or does it really have anything to do

with AA? I'm sure that such a thing is perhaps

valid as a personal observation; but I am not

sure of its relevance in an "AA" context. I

guesss that's the "group dynamics" part of

his study.



Without a doubt all AA's speak one language

in common "la Lingua de Corazon"...the Language

of the Heart. It is very true that Spanish-

speaking AA is something which should be

appreciated, not only as a growing thing, but

as recognizable and spiritual force for good

in AA today, and it should not be brushed aside

or overlooked.



Tu Companero,

Woody in Akron


0 -1 0 0
4060 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Dr Bob''s signature Dr Bob''s signature 2/1/2007 6:31:00 AM


After recently buying a signed book that was in

Dr.Bob's library,I asked a question to AAHL's

asking if they knew about any other books he

had signed. One member had three, and another

had one. It appears that there may not be

many books out there signed by Dr. Smith. I

assumed that the Akron Archives would have many

and once again I was wrong. Gail L. informed me

that "We have a signature of Dr. Bob's in a

first edition first printing Big Book. That

is the only original signature that we have.

The Smith children sold everything and most of

it is now at Brown University.



I found Dr. Bob's "What is the Oxford Group"

book and donated it to Dr. Bob's House. It was

signed: R H Smith, 855 Ardmore, "His book,

please return"



Anything that you have that we can pass on to

the many who visit would be appreciated."



The book I bought was purchased so that it

could be shown. I will carry it to Jared L's

archives workshop in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania

and also to the 11th National Archives Convention

September 6-9 in Phoenix, Arizona.



If you own AA memorabilia be sure to have it

legally given (willed) to your Intergroup etc.

Make sure your next of kin understands your

wishes and how valuable the material may be to

others. If Akron only has one signature, I can

only shudder when I think of how many of our

archives have been thrown away by family and

friends not knowing what they are.I think that

there must be some of Dr.Bob's books in the

Akron area that were given by Sue or Smitty,

to their friends, that should find their way

to the Akron AA Archives. What a legacy for an

AA to pass on to others; the archives that

rightfully belong to us all. The demand and

cost of AA memorsbilia is sky high. Just look

at an auction on E-Bay. A Big Red with a DJ

goes for $20,000. Sobriety has made many AA's

very wealthy,but it does not relinquish them

from helping others. Giving to Archives is in

the realm of the 7th tradition.



Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania


0 -1 0 0
4061 Glenn Chesnut
Gail La C. and the house at 855 Ardmore Gail La C. and the house at 855 Ardmore 2/2/2007 3:45:00 PM


I have a scanned copy of the initial legal

document (the purchase agreement) for the sale

of Dr. Bob's house at 855 Ardmore Avenue (see

the photo of the property on p. 41 of "Dr. Bob

and the Good Oldtimers").



It was sent to me by "DONALD BENNITT"

dbennitt@sbcglobal.net (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net),

for which I greatly thank him.



If I may summarize the principle parts of the

purchase agreement:



- - - -



Spalding Realty Co, Option to Purchase Real

Estate, dated October 5, 1984.



Seller: Theodore F. Walter

Buyer: Gail La C.



For the property at 855 Ardmore Avenue, Akron,

Ohio 44302 for a total price of $38,000.00.



It was accompanied by $500.00 earnest money.



This option was set up so that the next stages

of the purchase would have to be made before

5:00 p.m. on April 3, 1985, including appropriate

written notification and the receipt by the

seller of an additional $2,500.00.



The purchase agreement was signed by the seller

and by the buyer Gail La C., c/o Attorney Frank

Miller, 1113 Centran Bldg., Akron, OH 44308


0 -1 0 0
4062 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Dr.Bob''s house, Gail L. and the Founders Foundation Dr.Bob''s house, Gail L. and the Founders Foundation 2/1/2007 5:54:00 AM


AAHL's,



Shakey Mike contacted Gail L.,the Akron

Archivist, and asked her what her role was

in obtaining the Dr. Bob House in Akron.



Gail replied and allowed me to reprint her

emails.



Gail commented,



- - - -



"I alone negotiated the purchase of Dr. Bob's

home and held it in name while the Foundation

continued to collect money. The negotiated

purchase document froze the deal until it

could actually be transferred to Founders'

Foundation. I still have a copy of the

document with only my name on it.



"However, I was an early member and part of the

Founders Foundation. I was the one chosen to

make the deal and I did so in my name. It was

not the final mortgage that I signed.



"Does that help??"



- - - -



In a second posting she further added,



"There is a man on the board of Dr. Bob's

house by the name of Bruce who is writing up

the history of the purchase of the home for

their web page. He should help add clarity

to the history of the purchase of the home.



"I showed him many of the early documents. I

guess you could share what I shared with you.

It was decided that I would be the one to

negotiate the purchase because I knew the owner

and had approached him on my own with interest

in the house. I was sworn to secrecy and was

to tell no one. Gail"



- - - -



What this means is that she bid on the house

and froze the deal until the actual mortgage

was secured. It was the details of the

securing of the final mortgage arrangement

that I previously posted.



It seems that so many worked in various ways

to secure Dr. Bob's house for all of us that

it gets back to the basics of AA. Stay sober

and help the newcomer.



Dr.Bob's home has helped so many and will

continue to help others. The birthplace of AA

is a national treasure. A lot of AA's came

together in a time of need to help each other

to help others by giving unselfishly and

preserving our past for our future. It may

have been wrong of me initially to want to

give all the credit to Wesley P., or Kay, or

any other individual when this prosess of

getting and preserving our Dr. Bob house was

brought about through a divine process in

which many participated.



This does,however, allow us the opportunity

to record for others the correct sequence of

events that led to this event.



Your's in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Going to Phoenix in Sept.


0 -1 0 0
4063 Glenn Chesnut
Gail La C. and the National Archives Workshops Gail La C. and the National Archives Workshops 2/2/2007 3:47:00 PM


Gail La C. (Akron, Ohio) is best known in the

fellowship for having spearheaded the formation

of the National Archives Workshops. She was one

of the key people on the planning committees

which organized the ones which were held in

Akron.



I am trying to create a list of the workshops

in order, and where they were held. In going

through my files, I am finding a lot of gaps.

I apologize for not having written these things

down. But could the members of the AAHL help me

reconstruct the full list?



- - - -

1st 1996 Akron

2nd 1997 Akron

3rd 1998 Akron

4th 1999

5th 2000

6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana

7th 2002

8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida

9th 2004 Murfreesboro, Tennessee (near Nashville)

10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana (originally

set for New Orleans, but had to be

postponed a year because of the

hurricane)

11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona



- - - -



There was one in Chicago, I believe (perhaps the

5th) and one on the west coast (which must have

been the 7th), but I did not keep any notes in

my files on these.



I was not at the first Akron conference, but

attended the second one, where I got to meet

Gail, Ernie Kurtz, Mel Barger, and Mary Darrah,

among others, for the first time. I was on the

planning committee for the one in Indiana

(along with Floyd P. and Frank N. from Indiana,

Jim Dorrycott who built the excellent Tennessee

archival repository, and Rick T. from Illinois).

I spoke (along with Sgt. Bill S.) at the one

in Fort Lauderdale (where I got to meet a lot

of fine people), and attended the one in

Tennessee (where I got to tour the Upper Room

headquarters for the first time, a place that

I believe ought to be put on the short list of

"sacred sites" for AA people to visit when

they are passing through that state, especially

the Upper Room Chapel).



But I think it would be good to get a full

listing, and more details on these National

Archives Workshops, because they have been so

important in the creation of a new historical

awareness and interest among people in the AA

fellowship, not only in the U.S. and Canada,

but all over the world.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
4064 Cindy Miller
List of the National Archives Workshops List of the National Archives Workshops 2/2/2007 6:49:00 PM


THE COMPLETE LIST OF THE

NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOPS



1st 1996 Akron



2nd 1997 Akron



3rd 1998 Akron



4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois



5th 2000 Seattle, Washington



6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana

(across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky)



7th 2002 San Bernardino, California



8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida



9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee

(about forty miles from Nashville)



10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana

(originally set for New Orleans,

but the hurricane struck in 2005)



11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona



- - - -



Cindy Miller and Sally Brown completed the list

for us. Thanks! Glenn Chesnut, Moderator.



- - - -



From Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



HI--



I think 1999 was in Chicago, 2000 was in Seattle,

and 2001 was Louisville, KY.



cm



- - - -



From: "Sally Brown" <rev.sally@worldnet.att.net>

(rev.sally at worldnet.att.net)



Hi, Glenn,



Sept 26-29, 2002, San Bernardino, California.

Dave and I were speakers that year. It was

loads of fun meeting folks. Were you there?



Shalom - Sally


0 -1 0 0
4065 robin_foote
Re:Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 1/31/2007 6:30:00 AM


Hi Guys,



Living Sober has the following:



24 Steering clear of emotional entanglements



So, using "First Things First," we have found

it helpful to concentrate first on sobriety

alone, steering clear of any risky emotional

entanglements.



Immature or premature liaisons are crippling

to recovery. Only after we have had time to

mature somewhat beyond merely not drinking, are

we equipped to relate maturely to other people.



Love, in Fellowship



Robin F.



Australia



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4066 Doucet, Dale T
Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 2/1/2007 4:32:00 PM


There is a video that I watched at Doctor Bob's

house not too long ago. In this video they make

mention of the first "AA couple" and I think it

stated that one of the recently sober members

committed suicide soon after the relationship

started or ended. The video goes on to mention

that this failed relationship came from ignoring

the one year suggestion.



Thanks,

Dale D


0 -1 0 0
4067 chesbayman56
Significant February Dates in A.A. History Significant February Dates in A.A. History 2/1/2007 6:34:00 PM


Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang.

Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill & sophomore class

suspended

Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from

professionalization.

Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use

in his practice.

Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts"

for "we ought" in the Big Book.

Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC.

Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in

pamphlet form for many years.

Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA.

Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is

published.

Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get

married.

Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner.

Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA

by Larry J.

Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died.

Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank

P "The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this as

happening Feb 13, 1937

Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition)

sobriety date.

Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W.

Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem,

NC.

Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was

born.

Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA

group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members.

Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two

years before, at a New York AA meeting.

Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the

right

to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases.

Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA

dies.

Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on

AA by Seymour Rothman.

Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to

tape the Big Book.

Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held

at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street.


0 -1 0 0
4068 John Lee
Re: Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 2/1/2007 6:24:00 PM


Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family plot in

Vermont to see if there's a gravestone for Bertha?

Even though she was never buried in Vermont, it's

common practice to have uncompleted grave markers. If

there's a gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then

there would be some basis for Bill's claim that he

visited Bertha's gravesite.



john lee


0 -1 0 0
4069 David Johnson
Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 2/2/2007 12:54:00 PM


In addition to some specific advice in this area of relationships, it

has been indirectly but quite thoroughly addressed to the fellow

member and/or sponsor of that person in the Big Book, p.69 & 70. All

quotes come from these two pages.



"We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct." And then

the advice for the person in question: "We reviewed our own conduct

over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or

inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy,

suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have

done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it.

In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our

future sex life. We subjected each relation to this test - was it

selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up

to them. We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and

therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be

despised and loathed.

Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow

toward it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm,

provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing. In

other words, we treat sex as we would any other problem. In

meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter.

The right answer will come, if we want it."



Back to everyone else: "God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel

with persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge."



We're human, we'll probably make mistakes. What then? "Suppose we

fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean we are

going to get drunk? Some people tell us so. But this is only a

half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for

what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to

better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned

our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm

others, we are quite sure to drink."



Then Bill closes with the following: "To sum up about sex: We

earnestly pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable

situation, for sanity, and for the strength to do the right thing. If

sex is very troublesome, we throw ourselves the harder into helping

others. We think of their needs and work for them. This takes us out

of ourselves. It quiets the imperious urge, when to yield would mean

heartache."



Personal responsibility, personal choice, self-examination, open to

guidance from God and others, provided: "We realize that some people

are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical

thinking or advice." He describes fanatics this way: "One school

would allow man no flavor for his fare and the other would have us all

on a straight pepper diet. We want to stay out of this controversy."



Finally, it's probably important to note that it is primarily

religions which are cited when talking about the de facto "sin" of

pre-marital sex. Given AA has NO affiliation with "any related

facility or outside enterprise including, for example, Christianity,

Judaism or Hinduism," it can hardly dictate group and individual

morality based on any specific religion. Steps two, six and ten act

as protection against those who would dictate any particular flavor of

morality and direction.



Having said all of this, a fellow member or a sponsor, sharing her or

his personal experience, strength and hope in this area would prove

quite helpful, perhaps even indispensable, to anyone interested in

exploring this or any other topic and cannot be dismissed out of hand.

One drunk talking to another.



> AAHL,

> A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically

> in either the Big Book or the 12&12 if the subject

> of refraining from relationships (or any other

> thing that might interfere with sobriety) for

> the first year or so.

>

> That's the general wisdom of my home group

> and I've heard that advice given before, but

> I don't know if it's ever been addressed in

> any Conference-approved literature, or on this

> site, for that matter.

>

> Any help would be greatly appreciated!

>

> Spiritus contra spiritum!

> Terry P.

>


0 -1 0 0
4070 Mel Barger
Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member Twelve Steps and the Older Member 1/30/2007 3:42:00 PM


Hi Barry,



I suggest that you hang on to that book; there

are probably few copies around.



You probably know it was written by Jerome

Ellison, who had a great career as a writer and

editor before alcoholism laid him low. He came

back in sobriety to become a fairly successful

writer again and was, for a short time, editor

of the Grapevine. He was also a professor at

Indiana University for seven years.



I met him once at the Grapevine offices and

also spent an afternoon visiting with him at

his home in Guilford, CT., in early 1964. He

passed away many years ago.



Mel Barger



melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)





----- Original Message -----

From: Barry Murtaugh

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:01 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Twelve Steps and the Older Member





Hi Folks,



Here on my desk is a paperback with a blue

coated stock cover with the numeral "12" in

gold on it, upper right corner.



Cover is glued to stapled text pages, 5 1/2"

x 7 1/8"



Inside is the title page:

"TWELVE STEPS and the older Member"



Publisher line is:

"Older Member Press,Box 25, Guilford, Conn"



Copyright page:

"Copyright 1964 by Older Member Press

First Serial rights granted A.A. Grapevine

1954 through 1963; all other rights retained

by copyright owner.

First Printing June, 1964.

Library of Congress catalog number:64-22572

Price Two Dollars"



Great lines from the intro:



"The newest newcomer is just as authentically

an explorer into the infinite as were Bill and

Bob when they founded AA on June 10,1935.

Nobody can take the Tweve Steps for anybody

else. Each individual who sets his foot on

the road suggested by the Steps finds himself

on his own endlessly challenging, sometime

perilous journey into undiscovered territory."



In Gratitude 12/24/06

Happy Christmas from Barrington, IL

Barry



Barry Murtaugh

CMLJBM@VOYAGER.NET











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4071 John Lee
Re: Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 2/1/2007 6:24:00 PM


Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family

plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone

for Bertha? Even though she was never buried

in Vermont, it's common practice to have

uncompleted grave markers. If there's a

gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there

would be some basis for Bill's claim that he

visited Bertha's gravesite.



john lee


0 -1 0 0
4072 johnpublico
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 2/2/2007 2:19:00 PM


I'd like to correct a mistake in my earlier post.

The Factory Point Cemetery is in Manchester

Center (about 2 mi from Burr and Burton Academy

where Bill W. and Bertha Bamford were seniors),

not in Dorsett, as I stated.



"Pass It On" quotes articles in the Manchester

Journal which state that Bertha's remains were

placed in a receiving vault at Center Cemetery

on November 22 "to be taken on to Jeffersonville,

Ind, Mrs. Bamford's home, for interment." The

Center Cemetery referred to is probably the

Factory Point Cemetery in Manchester Center.



Since Bertha was interred in Indiana on November

28th, it would seem that Bill could have visited

the receiving vault in Manchester Center for no

more than a couple days before Bertha's remains

were sent by rail to their final rest at the

Walnut Ridge Cemetery in Jeffersonville, Indiana.



Though Bill might have been unable to visit

Bertha's gravesite, he might well have mourned

her passing at the Delwood Cemetery, a

beautiful, tranquil cemetery very near the

school.



John K.


0 -1 0 0
4073 JOHN e REID
Legacy of Wesley P Big Book Study and Purchasing Dr Bobs House... Legacy of Wesley P Big Book Study and Purchasing Dr Bobs House... 1/31/2007 1:38:00 AM


There were also a good contribution from Members

in Australia towards the purchase of Dr. Bob's

house. This was as a result of Wesley's (and Wayne

P from Hugoton Kansas who was Wesley's travelling

mate) visit in 1978 during which time they stayed

with my wife and I and family for circa 2 weeks

and helped start a number of Big Book Studies and

give talks on the Traditions. Wayne P spent

further time close time with us both in Australia

and at his Rocky Mountain retreat and was always

enthusiastic in creating attraction towards the

Dr. Bob House Foundation and the legacy Wesley P

left after his passing in 1985.



Wesley was not well enough to make the 50th

Anniversary International in Montreal but Wayne

P arranged for some of us including Charlie

and Joe to talk to Wesley by phone. As part

of his legacy Wesley sure did us all proud in

New Orleans 1980 when he and Wayne P organised

a luncheon with Lois W as the guest of Honour!!!



Wesley had planted audio copies of the Charlie

and Joe Big Book Study cassette under selected

chairs. Wesley had worked out who may well

make good use of this material and his selections

proved reasonably correct. The was a good

number of Members from Australia at the luncheon

and when we bought Charlie and Joe here during

the 1980's they attributed the success to the

growth in their approach, to the its real kick

start God had provided through Wesley P's

enthusiasm.



This coming March 2007 a Big Book Study Weekend

will be conducted in the Gold Coast of Queensland

Australia and one of the Members (Peter McK)

coordinating the weekend was at that luncheon

at the Marriott in New Orleans in 1980.



Wesley always talked about enthusiasm coming

from an ancient word meaning "God Within!!!!"

He sure generated some enthusiasm in his short

time DownUnder in Australia.



Kind Regards, John R

from Brisbane Tradition Group

Queensland Australia.


0 -1 0 0
4074 Jari Kokkinen
The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/3/2007 4:07:00 PM


Hi everybody!



While I've been reading your comments on the

study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring

myself into asking you all that know or have

thoughts about what is the foundation and current

state of AA's division in Mexico.



This I ask because in Finland we too have two

competing service structures.



Any thoughts appreciated.



In Sobriety,



Jari from Finland







____________________________________________________



Yahoo! Photos is now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo.

http://uk.photos.yahoo.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4075 Chris Budnick
RE: Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member Twelve Steps and the Older Member 2/3/2007 4:15:00 AM


Is this the same Jerome Ellison who wrote a

piece in the Saturday Evening Post about

Narcotics Anonymous?



(These Drug Addicts Cure One Another - Aug.

7, 1954) and Al-Anon (Help For The Alcoholic's

Family - July 2, 1955)



I found this online:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9503E7DD1338F933A25755C0A9679

48260



Jerome Ellison, Author And Ex-Collier's Editor



Published: June 10, 1981



Jerome Ellison, author and former managing

editor of Collier's, died yesterday in the

Connecticut Hospice in Branford. He was 73

years old.



For a number of years, he had lived in

Guilford, Conn.



Mr. Ellison was a founder of Associated

Magazine Contributors, a corporation begun

in 1946 as an owner-contributor publication.

Among the co-owners were Pearl Buck, Roger

Butterfield, John Steinbeck and John Dos

Passos. The pocket-sized magazine appeared

on newsstands as '47 Magazine and lasted a

few years.



A longtime magazine contributor and editor,

Mr. Ellison had worked on Life, Liberty and

The Reader's Digest, as well as Collier's.

During World War II, he was editorial director

of the Bureau of Overseas Publications of

the Office of War Information.



Mr. Ellison's books included ''The Prisoner

Ate a Hearty Breakfast,'' ''John Brown's

Soul,'' ''The Dam'' and ''Report to the

Creator.''



Surviving are two daughters, Judith Ogden

of Lincoln, Mass., and Julie Ellison of

Ann Arbor, Mich., and a grandson.



_____



From: Mel Barger

Subject: Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member



Hi Barry,



I suggest that you hang on to that book; there

are probably few copies around.



You probably know it was written by Jerome

Ellison, who had a great career as a writer and

editor before alcoholism laid him low. He came

back in sobriety to become a fairly successful

writer again and was, for a short time, editor

of the Grapevine. He was also a professor at

Indiana University for seven years.



I met him once at the Grapevine offices and

also spent an afternoon visiting with him at

his home in Guilford, CT., in early 1964. He

passed away many years ago.



Mel Barger



<melb@accesstoledo.com>

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4076 johnpublico
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 2/3/2007 10:16:00 AM


That's a good thought, John. However, the

Bamfords did not have a family plot in Vermont.

In the Archives article that Gary L. referenced

earlier (http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-

151_markings_winter06.pdf),

William W. writes that he found gravesites

for Bertha as well as her parents in the

Jeffersonville, Indiana, cemetery.



From what I've been able to find out about

the Bamfords, Rev. Walter H. Bamford,

Bertha's father, was born in Hampshire,

England in 1856 and came to this country at

the age of 34. He died in 1926, 14 years

after Bertha. Her mother, Julia Reed Bamford,

was born in Jeffersonville, Indiana, in 1856

and died at the ripe old age of 101. The

archives article says they're buried under

a common headstone nearby Bertha in

Jeffersonville.



Bertha also had a brother, a year younger,

named Walter H. Bamford, Jr.. I haven't been

able to find out too much about him except

that he lived for a time in Passaic, NJ and

New York City and worked in advertising

(I think).



Here's another piece of Bamford trivia. In the

Zion Church which still stands in Manchester

and where Bertha's father was rector, is the

following inscription on the beautiful brass

lectern:



To the Glory of God and in Loving Memory of

Bertha Dorothea Bamford at Rest - November 19,

1912 - R.I.P.



John K.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

John Lee <johnlawlee@...> wrote:

>

> Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family

> plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone

> for Bertha? Even though she was never buried

> in Vermont, it's common practice to have

> uncompleted grave markers. If there's a

> gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there

> would be some basis for Bill's claim that he

> visited Bertha's gravesite.

>

> john lee

>


0 -1 0 0
4077 Glenn Chesnut
Baltimore Chip House: name of chart on wall Baltimore Chip House: name of chart on wall 2/6/2007 12:17:00 PM


From: <joejackson_40@yahoo.com>

(joejackson_40 at yahoo.com)



I stopped by the Chip House the other day to

see a friend celebrate an anniversary. The

chart that Rob W. linked to is very similar

to that on the wall at 2613 N. Calvert Street.

The salient difference is that at the bottom

of the chart Rob noted there is a single,

broad loop indicating the vicious cycle with

which many of us are far too familiar. At

the bottom of the chart at the Chip House is

a series of smaller, seemingly interconnected

loops indicating the same cycle.



Here's what I noted as the source of the chart

at the Chip House: The chart on the wall was

distributed at the time of its printing by the

National Council on Alcohol Dependency. It was

reprinted from the British Journal of Addiction

Vol. 54 No. 2 in a paper called "Group Therapy

in Alcoholism" by M.M. Glatt PhD.



BTW -- the Chip House was renovated a few years

ago. It's brighter and much less smokey now;

no smoking is allowed, in fact, even in front of

the place. During the renovation, the chart was

relocated. It now hangs in the main room on the

wall to the left as one enters the room from

Calvert Street.



The Charles Village Group still holds AA Meetings

every day at the Chip House. I heard this

(paraphrase) in my first year from a low-bottom

drunk who'd recovered from a seemingly hopeless

state of mind and body: "I'm not sure where

you'll find God, but I know He lives at the

Chip House."


0 -1 0 0
4078 Bill Lash
Wilson House Fire 1/28/07, E. Dorset VT Wilson House Fire 1/28/07, E. Dorset VT 2/7/2007 8:33:00 AM


An excerpt from a message from Dean at the

Wilson House (where Bill Wilson was born) on

Wed. 1/31/07:



No warm fire to enjoy this time. A real scary

chimney fire struck Sunday Night during my

solitary shift. The Fire Dept. responded very

fast thanks to neighbors calling 911, and the

major damage was contained to the upper portion

of the Chimney. (Working at the desk, I had no

visual or auditory warning that a conflagration

had started.) The intense heat warped and

partially melted the exterior cap and dampener,

and fractured the protective liner in several

places at the attic level exposing the stone

and mortar. If there had been any significant

delay in notification or response time, the

roof and attic would have ignited. The repairs

won't come cheap; the top of the chimney needs

to be extended higher to meet clearance code;

but the bottom line is that the Wilson House

is intact!



DEAN


0 -1 0 0
4079 Tom Hickcox
RE: Wesley P''s concordance Wesley P''s concordance 1/30/2007 5:24:00 PM


I have seen about three copies of Poe's book

sell on eBay for about $140 each over the past

year.



There were apparently two printings, 1990 and

1999.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



- - - -



From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)



Dang it ... I purchased a couple of those $25

raffle tickets and didn't get my concordance.



- - - -



From: <dcatini@bellsouth.net>

(dcatini at bellsouth.net)



Just try online. There are many out there.

Put concordance to BB in Google. It will

come up.



Sincerely,

Denise



- - - -



>From: "momaria33772" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>

>(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

>

>I'm not sure specifically which Concordance is

>referred to here, however, my friend Ray G.,

>the Dr. Bob's Home archivist,is a snow bird

>here in Florida.

>

>He has a few copies of the huge blue hardcover

>available, this is written by Stephen Poe

>printed by Purple Salamander press 1990.


0 -1 0 0
4080 momaria33772
Joe and Charlie workshops functioning again Joe and Charlie workshops functioning again 1/31/2007 5:01:00 PM


Charlie P. just did the "Big Book Comes Alive

Weekend" at Cocoa Beach, Forida on January

19-21, 2007.



I have the entire weekend on CD.



Joe is still not back on the road so Charlie

was ably assisted by Wes B. of Canada.



Maria Hoffman,



Vision Audio Tapes and CD's





-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com CBBB164@... wrote:

>

> No they are not. Joe McQ has become the victim

> of Parkinson's disease and was replaced by Joe McC.

>

> Charlie P. recently had a hip replacement and Joe

> McC. has had a number of serious health problems.

>

> In God's love and service,

>

> Cliff Bishop

> http://www.ppgaadallas.org

>

> - - - - - -

>

> From: Ollie Olorenshaw

> ollie_olorenshaw@...

> (ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au)

>

> As far as I am aware Joe and Charlie are no

> longer conducting workshops but recordings of

> past workshops are available from various places.

> Here is one.

>

> www.12steptapes.com

>

> and another

>

> www.xa-speakers.org

>

> best wishes

>

> Ollie

>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4081 Emmanuel
Pray for those against whom we hold a resentment Pray for those against whom we hold a resentment 1/31/2007 4:35:00 PM


Can anyone tell me where it says to "pray for 2

weeks that the person I am resentful of receive

all the happiness I would want"



Peace & Happy Days o~`o

Emmanuel S. John



- - - -



From the moderator:



This is from the story "Freedom from Bondage,"

Big Book, first appearing in the 2nd ed. The

passage is on p. 552 in both the 3rd ed. and

4th ed.



"'If you have a resentment you want to be free

of, if you will pray for the person or the thing

that you resent, you will be free. If you will

ask in prayer for everything you want for

yourself to be given to them, you will be free

.... Do it every day for two weeks and you will

find you have come to mean it and to want it

for them, and you will realize that where you

used to feel bitterness and resentment and

hatred, you now feel compassionate understanding

and love.'"



Mel Barger thinks the prominent clergyman

referred to in the Big Book story as the source

of that advice may have been Norman Vincent

Peale, but has been unable to find the specific

issue of the magazine where the article about

resentment appeared:



- - - -



Message 3301 from Mel Barger

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3301



Hi Friends:



I would like to know the exact source of a

wonderful quotation on dealing with resentment

that appears in "Freedom From Bondage," a

personal story in the Big Book. The personal

story was first used in the 2nd edition,

published in 1955, and has been retained in

the 3rd and 2nd editions, which indicates that

the editors felt it was of superior quality.



Here's the quotation, which can be found on

p. 552 of the 4th (latest) edition. The author

said she found it in a magazine article and

that it was about getting rid of resentment.

It was by a prominent clergyman. He said,

in effect: If you have a resentment you want

to be free of, if you will pray for the

person or the thing that you resent, you will

be free. If you will ask in prayer for

everything you want for yourself to be given

to them, you will be free. Ask for their health,

their prosperity, their happiness, and you will

be free. Even when you don't really want it for

them and your prayers are only words and you

don't mean it, go ahead and do it anyway. Do it

every day for two weeks, and you will find you

have come to mean it and to want it for them,

and you will realize that where you used to feel

bitterness and resentment and hatred, you now

feel compassionate understanding and love."



The author went on to say it worked for her then

and worked for her since and worked every time

she was willing to work it.



Who was the prominent clergyman who authored

this quotation? My guess is that it was Norman

Vincent Peale, who became very prominent with

his 1952 publication of that blockbuster, "The

Power of Positive Thinking." He was a good

friend of AA and even devoted a large part of

one chapter in that book to AA. But does anyone

know where the above quotation appeared?



It had to be before 1955, because that's when

it first appeared in the Big Book. It was in

a magazine with the word "resentment" on the

cover, as this is what caught the Big Book

writer's attention.



It might have been in Guideposts magazine and

slightly different from the quotation shown

above, as the author used "in effect" in

presenting it.



It's a great quotation, by the way, and ought

to be put on a card and passed around at

meetings, especially when resentment is the

topic. Come to think of it, I think I'll do

that for my group her in Toledo and any of the

History Lovers could easily download it from

this message and circulate it in their own

groups.



LOL to All,

Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio



melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4082 Robyn Mitchell
When and how did Founders'' Day start? When and how did Founders'' Day start? 1/31/2007 11:47:00 PM


Hi there,



Can anyone tell me when and how the celebration

of Founders' Day in Akron first got started?



Many thanks to all of you for your love of God,

Alcoholics and Alcoholics Anonymous,



Robyn


0 -1 0 0
4083 Dale D.
Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 2/5/2007 10:15:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com "Doucet, Dale T" <dale@...>

wrote:

>

> There is a video that I watched at Doctor Bob's

> house not too long ago. In this video they make

> mention of the first "AA couple" and I think it

> stated that one of the recently sober members

> committed suicide soon after the relationship

> started or ended. The video goes on to mention

> that this failed relationship came from ignoring

> the one year suggestion.

>

> Thanks,

> Dale D

>



I don't know who eddited my message but they changed the meaning.



The point was that it was this failed relationship that the video

claims "STARTED" the suggested of one year before relationships.



Thanks,

Dale D.


0 -1 0 0
4084 Karl Kleen
Tombstones of AA folks on the Find A Grave website Tombstones of AA folks on the Find A Grave website 2/5/2007 8:47:00 AM


Some internet links to photos of tombstones of AA connected folks on the Find A

Grave website:



Father Ed Dowling:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=16958125&



Antoinette B Silkworth:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=11339783&



William Duncan Silkworth:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=11339789&



Anne Ripley Smith:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=5769885&



Robert Holbrook "Doctor Bob" Smith:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=2536&



Lois Burnham Wilson:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=3025&



William G. "Bill" Wilson:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=2535&


0 -1 0 0
4085 dallasaa95
Faithful Fivers Faithful Fivers 2/5/2007 11:29:00 AM


Does anyone know the background of this term?

We use it for anyone giving to the Dallas

Central Office on a monthly basis regardless

of the actual amount. I was curious as to the

origins for this and similar terms.



Thanks, Janis


0 -1 0 0
4086 Lee Nickerson
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/5/2007 12:57:00 PM


I have been away from the GSA for a while but

here is what I remember of the Mexican situation.

The original Conference in Mexico had gotten

so far out of whack that at one point an AA Big

Book cost nearly $30 (American). 20,000 Mexican

AA's seceded from that Conference and formed

a Conference called Seccion Mexico.



AA New York would not recognize them and there

was a problem getting books. That began the

printing and distribution to Seccion of the

little Big Book by what is now Anonymous Press.



A lot of this is really unclear to my memory but

basically that is what happened. It degenertaed

to awful proportions and AAWS was suspected by

many to be complicit in the events that followed;

up to and including the arrest by the Federales

of Seccion Mexico's trusted servants, the

confiscation of their materials and the closing

of the office. Many AAs in this Conference

(US and Canada) including former Northeast

Regional Trustee to the GSB, Jake H., protested

AAWS's role in this mess and even went to Mexico

to help untangle it.



Apparently Seccion Mexico survived but I don't

know its status today.



That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and

the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding

its power disgracefully. I remember it actually

solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000

just to grant San Diego the favor of holding

our Intenational Convention there in 1995.



Then there was the German situation where an

AA was taken to court and bankrupted with the

full approval of our General Service Office.

Oh ...don't get me going!



lee





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Jari Kokkinen

<jarikokkinen@...> wrote:

>

> Hi everybody!

>

> While I've been reading your comments on the

> study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring

> myself into asking you all that know or have

> thoughts about what is the foundation and current

> state of AA's division in Mexico.

>

> This I ask because in Finland we too have two

> competing service structures.

>

> Any thoughts appreciated.

>

> In Sobriety,

>

> Jari from Finland


0 -1 0 0
4087 Tom Hickcox
12x12 Question 12x12 Question 2/9/2007 6:25:00 PM


Did Bill Wilson write the foreword to the 12x12?



I have a 12x12 printed probably in the early

'90s but there is no indication of printing

number or date. A footnote on p. 15 says



"In 1990. . . approximately two million have

recovered through A.A." and a footnote on

p. 18 says, "In 1990, A.A. is established in

134 countries."



A list of the printings of the book show that

the 43rd and 44th were printed in 1990.



I wonder if any listers have these printings

or might know which printing my mystery book

is?



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4088 Danny S
Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? 2/10/2007 10:30:00 AM


Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I

came across this regarding Bill Wilson's

spiritual experience:



". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had

gone through such an experience on Mount

Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details

almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed

to the altar of the local Congregational Church;

announced that he had been saved; and never

drank again for the rest of his life."



I am looking for some documentation of this

event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone

please direct and advise? Has anyone even

heard this before? Thanks



Peace,



Danny Schwarzhoff



- - - -



From the moderator:



One place this is described (I don't know if

it is the only one) is in Susan Cheever, "My

Name Is Bill" (New York: Washington Square

Press, 2004), page 17:



"William Wilson's drinking had led him to

take a series of temperance pledges. One

Sunday morning in despair he climbed to the

top of Mount Aeolus and beseeched God to help

him. He saw a blinding light and felt a

great wind, and rushed down into town to

interrupt the service at the Congregational

Church. Demanding that the minister leave

the pulpit, Wilson described his experience

to the congregation of his friends, neighbors,

and family. Emily loved this story about her

husband's father, and she told it to her son

and husband as often as they would listen. In

the eight years William Wilson lived after

that experience, he never had another drink."



But remember that Bill W. (the co-founder of

AA) rarely talked about his own vision of

the light. He did not regard that as an

important part of his message.



In the Big Book (p. 12), he describes what he

regarded as his real conversion experience

as taking place when Ebby came to talk to

him in his kitchen. "Scales ... fell from

my eyes" was a reference to the story of

the conversion of the Apostle Paul on the

Road to Damascus, and would have been

recognized by almost all Protestants in the

1930's and 40's, because people still read

their Bibles in those days.



In other words, almost everybody in AA

realized in 1939 that Bill was saying here,

by that choice of words, that "THIS was

MY real conversion experience."



What his real conversion experience consisted

of was remembering his experience in Winchester

Cathedral, when he had felt the sense of God's

presence there, but had turned away from that

kind of feeling of God consciousness, and tried

to handle his life totally on the basis of his

own will power and ability to analyze things

intellectually and come up with grand theories.



And he also remembered the grandfather who

told him that you could experience this same

intuition of the sacred and the infinite

while gazing up at the starry heavens at

night. You didn't have to go into a church to

understand the feeling of the divine presence.



To better understand what Bill W. was talking

about in that part of the Big Book, see Rudolf

Otto, "The Idea of the Holy: An Inquiry into

the Non-Rational Factor in the Idea of the

Divine and Its Relation to the Rational."

2nd ed. Trans. John W. Harvey (Oxford: Oxford

University Press, 1950).



Rudolf Otto was regarded as one of the two or

three best theologians of that era. Although

there is no indication that Bill W. had ever

read Otto's book, many of the authors whom

he DID read had read that book and were heavily

influenced by Otto's ideas, including

especially the people who were putting out

The Upper Room, for whom the concept of

maintaining continual "God consciousness"

was extremely important.



Given the difficulty of translating the English

words "spirit" and "spirituality" into German,

German-speaking AA's might find it very useful

to read the original German of Otto's book,

where he puts this in language which would be

more intelligible within the context of German

culture and traditional German vocabulary for

talking about these issues:



Rudolf Otto, "Das Heilige: Über das Irrationale

in der Idee des göttlichen und sein Verhältnis

zum Rationalen. 11th ed. Stuttgart: Friedrich

Andreas Perthes, 1923.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
4089 davidgolden99
Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical 2/8/2007 3:35:00 PM


The beginner's group where I got sober used an

"AA definition" of alcoholism that says the

disease affects us "spiritually, mentally and

physically, and we recover in the reverse order

(physically, mentally, then spiritually)."



Page 64 of the Big Book (4th ed.) says, "When

the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten

out mentally and physically."



Is there an actually "AA definition" which

reverses the order, and if so, what is its

source? Is there a text, or is it part of an

oral AA tradition?



Why is the recovery in this definition which

I was given the opposite of what is written in

"How It Works?"


0 -1 0 0
4090 Tom Hickcox
Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Hartigan''s book Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Hartigan''s book 2/10/2007 5:18:00 PM


At 09:30 2/10/2007 , Danny S wrote:



>Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I

>came across this regarding Bill Wilson's

>spiritual experience:

>

>". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had

>gone through such an experience on Mount

>Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details

>almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed

>to the altar of the local Congregational Church;

>announced that he had been saved; and never

>drank again for the rest of his life."

>

>I am looking for some documentation of this

>event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone

>please direct and advise? Has anyone even

>heard this before? Thanks

>

>Peace,

>

>Danny Schwarzhoff



This same event is related in Francis Hartigan's

book "Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics

Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson," Thomas Dunne

Books, New York, 2001, on pages 10-11.



"Bill's grandfather Wilson also linked Mount

Aeolus to a profound spiritual experience. . . .

he climbed Mount Aeolus. There, after

beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding

light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was

a conversion experience that left him feeling

so transformed that he practically ran down

the mountain and into town.



"When he reached the East Dorset Congregational

Church, which is across the street from the

Wilson House, the Sunday service was in

progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into

the church and demanded that the minister get

down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place,

he proceeded to relate his experience to the

shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather

never drank again. He was to live another

eight years, sober." Hartigen does not give

the source of this story.



It is not mentioned in Thomsen's book.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4091 ann
Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/11/2007 10:50:00 PM


I've been a part of AA for many years and I have

been researching the women of AA. Does anyone

know if Wynn Corum & Marty Mann knew each other?

and to what extent their personal relationship

was (if any?) They were both some of the first

women of AA.


0 -1 0 0
4092 Jay Lawyer
RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/11/2007 5:07:00 PM


Jari,



Seccion Mexico is doing fine: http://aa.org.mx/



From my friend Norm D.



I think GSOs, like groups, tend to get enough

problems that someone or some group of folks

will break away and start 'new' doing it the

"right way"





Jay





--- In AAHistoryLovers@ <mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com>

yahoogroups.com, Jari Kokkinen

<jarikokkinen@...> wrote:

>

> Hi everybody!

>

> While I've been reading your comments on the

> study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring

> myself into asking you all that know or have

> thoughts about what is the foundation and current

> state of AA's division in Mexico.

>

> This I ask because in Finland we too have two

> competing service structures.

>

> Any thoughts appreciated.

>

> In Sobriety,

>

> Jari from Finland











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4093 Tom H.
RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/11/2007 11:24:00 PM


To the moderator, this is not true...



"That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and

the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding

its power disgracefully. I remember it actually

solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000

just to grant San Diego the favor of holding

our Intenational Convention there in 1995."



...from the email below.



- - - - - - - -



San Diego had promised a transportation system

that it did not deliver. As a result GSO had

to pay for our membership to get back and

forth to the venues. The check San Diego paid

to GSO is only the same amount GSO paid for

transportation.



When a group (GSO) brings about 50 million

dollars to a city this is nothing more than

standard business practice. Does a city get

the Olympics without promising to provide

certain construction for venues and

transportation?



This is how false rumors get started.



Thank you





-----Original Message-----

Subject: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico

(and Finland)



I have been away from the GSA for a while but

here is what I remember of the Mexican situation.

The original Conference in Mexico had gotten

so far out of whack that at one point an AA Big

Book cost nearly $30 (American). 20,000 Mexican

AA's seceded from that Conference and formed

a Conference called Seccion Mexico.



AA New York would not recognize them and there

was a problem getting books. That began the

printing and distribution to Seccion of the

little Big Book by what is now Anonymous Press.



A lot of this is really unclear to my memory but

basically that is what happened. It degenertaed

to awful proportions and AAWS was suspected by

many to be complicit in the events that followed;

up to and including the arrest by the Federales

of Seccion Mexico's trusted servants, the

confiscation of their materials and the closing

of the office. Many AAs in this Conference

(US and Canada) including former Northeast

Regional Trustee to the GSB, Jake H., protested

AAWS's role in this mess and even went to Mexico

to help untangle it.



Apparently Seccion Mexico survived but I don't

know its status today.



That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and

the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding

its power disgracefully. I remember it actually

solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000

just to grant San Diego the favor of holding

our Intenational Convention there in 1995.



Then there was the German situation where an

AA was taken to court and bankrupted with the

full approval of our General Service Office.

Oh ...don't get me going!



lee


0 -1 0 0
4094 Emmanuel
Re: Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? 2/12/2007 9:34:00 AM


It might also be worth noting that Bill's

grandfather lived in the house right next door

to the church. THis church is about 25 feet

from the house. He would have had to run past

the front door of the church to get home. For

those who have not been there, this town has a

total of about 10-15 houses, very small, and

if he were to try and find anyone else he

would have had to enter the bar (where the

liquor was), now known as the Wilson House.



Emmanuel

Baltimore





On 2/10/07, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> wrote:

>

> At 09:30 2/10/2007 , Danny S wrote:

>

> >Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I

> >came across this regarding Bill Wilson's

> >spiritual experience:

> >

> >". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had

> >gone through such an experience on Mount

> >Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details

> >almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed

> >to the altar of the local Congregational Church;

> >announced that he had been saved; and never

> >drank again for the rest of his life."

> >

> >I am looking for some documentation of this

> >event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone

> >please direct and advise? Has anyone even

> >heard this before? Thanks

> >

> >Peace,

> >

> >Danny Schwarzhoff

>

> This same event is related in Francis Hartigan's

> book "Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics

> Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson," Thomas Dunne

> Books, New York, 2001, on pages 10-11.

>

> "Bill's grandfather Wilson also linked Mount

> Aeolus to a profound spiritual experience. . . .

> he climbed Mount Aeolus. There, after

> beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding

> light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was

> a conversion experience that left him feeling

> so transformed that he practically ran down

> the mountain and into town.

>

> "When he reached the East Dorset Congregational

> Church, which is across the street from the

> Wilson House, the Sunday service was in

> progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into

> the church and demanded that the minister get

> down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place,

> he proceeded to relate his experience to the

> shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather

> never drank again. He was to live another

> eight years, sober." Hartigen does not give

> the source of this story.

>

> It is not mentioned in Thomsen's book.

>

> Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4095 Arthur Sheehan
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/12/2007 12:28:00 AM


Hi Lee



History is supposed to propagate facts not

beliefs. If you would care to review "the other

side" of the German lawsuit story, please refer

to AAHL messages 2860, 2873 and 2907.



Message 2860 contains a General Service Board

report to the 2004 General Service Conference.

It details how from 1993 (and for over a

decade) they tried to get the German AA member

to stop violating German copyright law (he was

actually distributing Big Books in several

countries in several languages).



Message 2873 responds to a criticism posted in

AAHL that echoed the same litany of criticisms

that have been directed at the GSB, AAWS and GSO.



Message 2907 is a detailed analysis of the

German Big Book translation versus the English

counterpart. The most stunning discovery was

how the German AA member, who is portrayed as

some sort of martyr (no pun intended on his

name) had no factual basis for his claims that

the German Big Book translation removed reference

to "God" and "spirituality" from text.



His whole case rested on torturous semantic

hair-splitting of the use of the German words

"geistig" and "seelisch" in the translation

instead of his preferred German word

"spirtuelle."



There is a point of interest regarding the past

$30 Big Book price in Mexico (which today's

Spanish language version costs $6 from AAWS).

The $3.50 price of the 1939 first edition Big

Book would be the equivalent of around $50 in

2006 dollars. It was a very expensive book.



An English language hard cover 4th edition Big

Book today costs $6 from AAWS. That's about 1/8

of what it cost 1i 1939 (disregarding collector's

value of course).



It would be nice to give the GSB, AAWS and GSO

some credit where credit is due.



Cheers

Arthur



(PS haven't posted here in a while - been very,

very busy)


0 -1 0 0
4096 Sally Brown
Re: Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/13/2007 1:02:00 PM


Dave and I didn't come across Wynn Corum's name

when we were researching the Marty Mann bio, but

I would guess that both women did know each other.



I would love to know about Wynn.



City? Approximate sobriety date and age?

Anything of her story? And what is Ann's

particular interest? Etc?



Thanks, and shalom - Sally



- - - -



Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R Brown:

"A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady

of Alcoholics Anonymous"



Board Certified Clinical Chaplain

United Church of Christ



www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Road, 309

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

Email: rev.sally@att.net

(rev.sally at att.net)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4097 David Jones
RE: Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical 2/10/2007 5:03:00 PM


I would suggest it is the opposite of the

definition you have written to ‘How It Works’,

because of the way the big book defines the

illness of alcoholism and also its solution.



First the book defines the illness as being

physical, then mental; and possibly spiritual

(the so-called hole in the soul).



Then it outlines the solution which is spiritual

in nature to overcome the physical and mental;

especially the mental.



I would suggest that a recovery that appeared

to be at first physical, then mental, then

spiritual to be illusory.



If I simply stopped drinking I would physically

improve, but would I be recovering mentally?

And if not mentally then how could I be recovering

spiritually?



By adopting a spiritual solution I am employing

spiritual principles: honesty, openness,

willingness, humility, etc. As well as in the

other sense God to recover. Recovery must begin

first with the spiritual, and as it begins I

then begin to straighten out both physically

and mentally.



Here is Carl Jung’s letter to Bill W. (BELOW)



I conclude do I straighten out physically,

mentally and then wait for the miracle to happen;

or is it the other way round?



God bless



Dave



- - - - - - - -



Carl Jung's letter to Bill W





Your letter has been very welcome indeed.



I had no news from Roland H. anymore and often

wondered what had been his fate. Our conversation

which he has adequately reported to you had an

aspect of which he did not know. The reason that

I could not tell him everything was that those

days I had to be exceedingly careful of what I

said. I had found out that I was misunderstood

in every possible way. Thus I was very careful

when I talked to Roland H. But what I really

thought about, was the result of many experiences

with men of his kind.



His craving for alcohol was equivalent, on a

low level, of the spiritual thirst of our

being for wholeness, expressed in medieval

language: the union with God.



How could one formulate such an insight in a

language that is not misunderstood in our days?



The only right and legitimate way to such an

experience is, that it happens to you in

reality and it can only happen to you when

you walk on a path that leads you to a higher

understanding. You might be led to that goal

by an act of grace or through a personal and

honest contact with friends, or through a

higher education of the mind beyond the confines

of mere rationalism. I see from your letter

that Roland H. has chosen the second way, which

was, under the circumstances, obviously the

best one.



I am strongly convinced that the evil principle

prevailing in this world leads the unrecognised

spiritual need into perdition, if it is not

counteracted either by real religious insight

or by the protective wall of human community.

And ordinary man, not protected by an action

from above and isolated in society, cannot

resist the power of evil, which is called very

aptly the Devil. But the use of such words

arouses so many mistakes that one can only keep

aloof from them as much as possible.



These are the reasons why I could not give a

full and sufficient explanation to Roland H.

but I am risking it with you because I conclude

from your very decent and honest letter that

you have acquired a point of view above the

misleading platitudes one usually hears about

alcoholism.



You see, Alcohol in Latin is “spiritus” and

you use the same word for the highest religious

experience as well as for the most depraving

poison. The helpful formula therefore is:

SPIRITUS CONTRA SPIRITUM.



Thanking you again for your kind letter.

I remain sincerely yours



C.G.Jung



- - - - - - - -



The beginner's group where I got sober used an

"AA definition" of alcoholism that says the

disease affects us "spiritually, mentally and

physically, and we recover in the reverse order

(physically, mentally, then spiritually)-."



Page 64 of the Big Book (4th ed.) says, "When

the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten

out mentally and physically."



Is there an actually "AA definition" which

reverses the order, and if so, what is its

source? Is there a text, or is it part of an

oral AA tradition?



Why is the recovery in this definition which

I was given the opposite of what is written in

"How It Works?"


0 -1 0 0
4098 Glenn Chesnut
Ernie Kurtz, "Shame & Guilt," now available online Ernie Kurtz, "Shame & Guilt," now available online 2/14/2007 2:36:00 AM


Ernie Kurtz, "Shame & Guilt," 2nd ed. revised

and updated, now available online.



This second edition, which has recently been

revised and updated, will soon appear in print.



But the entire book is now available to read

online, for those who would like to read it in

that format:



http://hindsfoot.org/kek1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/eksg.html

______________________________



Originally published twenty-six years ago

as Shame and Guilt: Characteristics of the

Dependency Cycle (A Historical Perspective

for Professionals). Center City, Minnesota:

Hazelden, 1981.

______________________________



Also by Kurtz:



Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous (Hazelden)



The Spirituality of Imperfection (Bantam)



The Collected Ernie Kurtz (The Bishop of Books)


0 -1 0 0
4099 Fiona Dodd
Re: Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/13/2007 4:16:00 PM


Wynn Corum Laws stepdaughter Carolyn See wrote

a book Dreaming: Hard Luck and Good Times in

America, which more or less tells Wynn's story.

I read it a few years ago and don't remember

it mentioning Marty Mann or their knowing each

other personally.



Fiona


0 -1 0 0
4100 amytreau
Passing of Nell Wing Passing of Nell Wing 2/15/2007 4:26:00 PM


Dear Friends:



It is with great sadness that we share the news

that Nell Wing died on Wednesday, February 14,

2007 at 7:00 p.m. after a lengthy illness. Nell

was 89 years old.



As most of you know, Nell was Bill W.'s secretary

and assistant for 17 years and a close friend

and long-time companion to Lois W. She worked

at the General Service Office of A.A. from the

beginning of 1947 until her retirement at the

close of 1982, starting as a receptionist and

later becoming secretary of A.A. World Services,

Inc. Additionally, she served as G.S.O.'s first

archivist for the last ten of her years at the

office. The Archives opened in 1975.



We would like to take a moment to celebrate

Nell's life and share the following:



From Markings, November/December 1983, when

Nell announced her retirement in print:

"…I hope to stay nearby; and never lessen

interest in this fellowship, nor loosen the

close bonds of friendship with my A.A. and

Al-Anon friends. I'm forever grateful for this

marvelous experience that began for me on

March 3, 1947, at 415 Lexington Ave., New York

City, in 3 small rooms of the Central Terminal

Building. I have enjoyed and treasured every

moment of it. I won't say `goodbye:' just want

to extend my love and thanks to each one of

you dear friends."



Please join all of us at the General Service

Office in extending our heartfelt condolences

to Nell's family.



Thank you,



Amy Filiatreau

Archivist

AA World Services, Inc.

filiatreaua@aa.org


0 -1 0 0
4101 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Nell Wing has passed Nell Wing has passed 2/15/2007 12:04:00 PM


I'm sorry to report to my AAHL friends that

AA'S Number One Archivist, Miss Nell Wing,

passed last evening at 7 P. M.



Her nephew, another Bill W., called me earlier

today to let me know that this dear sweet

lady has gone to meet her maker and will be

joining the other Giants of AA. Nell had been

in a nursing home the last few years and her

health had been declining.



There will be a service on Saturday February

24th. from 1 P.M. to 5 P.M. at the Moore's

Funeral Home 1591 Alps Rd Wayne , NJ 07470.



The Funeral home has a web site

www.mooresinfo.com

http://www.mooresinfo.com

(look under Nell Wing)



The telephone # for Moore's is 973 694 0072



At 5 P.M. representatives of the US Coast Guard

(Nell served there till 1946 when she came

to AA) will present the family with a flag.



If it were not for this lady there may not be

an AAHL site because she started and collected

our history. On the wall of her apartment hangs

a certificate from the Smithsonian to Nell as

AA's First Archivist.



When the 4th edition of the Big Book came out

we went to visit Nell and presented her with

a 4th edition. She posed for photographs and

signed some books and never stopped smiling.

I think the one thing I will never forget about

her is her smile. It never ended.



Her apartment was a joy to see. She had pictures

of the cofounders. as well as an oil painting

of Bill and Bob. She was with Bill and Lois

till the end.



Many of the members of this site remember her

for the help and friendliness she showed to

a lot of drunks.



May she rest in peace,



The world is a better place because of

this woman,



Shakey Mike Gwirtz


0 -1 0 0
4102 Bill Lash
AA History Pictures Presentation, Oak Ridge NJ, 3/1/07 AA History Pictures Presentation, Oak Ridge NJ, 3/1/07 2/15/2007 3:20:00 PM


“The Thursday Night Big Book Group”

of Oak Ridge NJ presents



An AA History Presentation

with 190 Pictures of Early AA



With Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ

Area 44 History & Archives Chairperson



March 1, 2007

7:00PM – 8:30PM



St. Gabriel’s Church

153 Milton Road

Oak Ridge, NJ



It is pictures from the first 30 years of AA.

Pictures of the Washingtonians,Frank Buchman,

Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves, Ebby, Bill &

Lois, Bill's parents & grandparents, Lois's

parents, Dr. Bob's family, all the OH/VT

places, Henrietta Seiberling, Bill D., Ernie

G., Clarence S., Sr. Ignatia, all the N.Y.

& N.J. places, Charlie Towns & Dr. Silkworth,

Hank P., when the early literature was

published, the Rockefeller dinner,

gravesites, etc.



It's very exciting, combining the stories

with the images.



Oak Ridge, New Jersey, is centrally located for

lots of people on the East Coast, northwest of

New York City, west of New Haven, Connecticut,

and north of Philadelphia and Trenton. Less

than an hour from a lot of places.



DIRECTIONS TO ST. GABRIEL’S CHURCH:



Coming from Route 23 North/South: turn onto

Oak Ridge Road and follow for approx. 4 miles,

going thru the light at Ridge Road/Lukoil gas

station, make a right onto Legion Road/Milton

Road (Milton Garage is on the left and St.

Thomas Church is right in front of you),

follow Milton Road approx. 1 mile and as you

round the bend the church will be on your left,

if you pass the firehouse on your left you

have gone too far.



Coming from Route 15 (Berkshire Valley Road):

turn right onto Berkshire Valley Road south

and follow approx. 7 miles and turn left onto

Milton Road/Legion Road (by the Gulf Station

& St. Thomas Church), follow 1/2 mile to the

stop sign, bear to your left and the church

will be on your left.



Coming from Route 15 (to Weldon Road): follow

Weldon Road to the end, bear right and follow

Milton Road for approx 1 mile - firehouse

will be on the right and the church will be

on your left.



*****If there is no parking left in the

lot please park across the street, if you

are not sure come inside and ask.*****



For more information please call Rose M.

973-769-4337 (cell).


0 -1 0 0
4103 Glenn Chesnut
Mel B. on Nell Wing''s life Mel B. on Nell Wing''s life 2/15/2007 8:00:00 PM


NELL WING

By Mel B., Toledo, OH



Many of us in AA feel that God brings the

right people into our lives, at the right time

and in the right way. This was certainly true

of Nell Wing, who died on Wednesday, Febr. 14.

She came to work at GSO in a temporary job in

March 1947 and stayed until her retirement in

1982.



Though a nonalcoholic, her devotion to AA

became nearly absolute, and as the years passed

she formed friendships with members throughout

the world. She never married, and AA really

became her extended family, with Bill and Lois

Wilson as her surrogate parents.



Nell was 29 when she reported to work at

GSO (then called the Alcoholic Foundation).

She had attended Keuka College in central New

York state and served two years as a SPAR (a

female Coast Guard sailor). She only wanted

short-term employment until leaving for Mexico

to study sculpture under the G.I. Bill. But

as she recalled later, “From the beginning, I

was caught by the A.A. Fellowship, particularly

by the caring. It was not so much a general

‘caring for our fellowman,’ but a one-on-one

caring, a love for one another without thought

of any reward.” Mexico faded into the

background, and she spent 35 years at GSO!



Nell served as receptionist and did other

clerical work at GSO before becoming Bill’s

secretary in 1950. Highly competent as a

secretary, she also became Bill’s staunch

defender, giving him support and reassurance

when members wrote angry letters or when he

became plagued by self-doubt and depression.

More than almost anybody, Nell knew how much

Bill suffered when attacked by the very people

who should have been grateful to him. After

his death in 1971, she said she lost “my close

friend and confidant, the big brother/father

figure of my middle life.”



She then became AA’s first archivist, with

responsibility for organizing and filing all

the documents and other records of our history.

Though not trained in library science, she

quickly learned the essentials of archiving

and set up a logical system that works extremely

well to this day. She also continued as Bill’s

loyal advocate and carefully documented his

specific contributions to AA’s origin, growth,

and success.



Nell and Lois became even closer after

Bill’s passing. Nell often spent weekends with

Lois at Stepping Stones and became concerned

that the older woman insisted on living alone

though becoming increasingly frail. Lois’s

passing in 1988 was another great loss in her

life.



With a loving nephew as her guardian,

Nell was a resident at a Sunrise Assisted

Living home in New Jersey.



~~~~~~~~

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4104 Glenn Chesnut
Nell Wing Memorial Book Nell Wing Memorial Book 2/16/2007 12:35:00 PM


Doug B. has set up a memorial book on the

internet for those who would like to post a

few words expressing their love for Nell

and gratitude for all that she did, on the

AAHistory website:



http://www.aahistory.com



Close to the top of the opening page on the

website, it says:



- - - - - - - -

Nell Wing, Bill W.'s secretary and AA's first

archivist, passed from this life February 14,

2007. You are invited to sign her memorial

book at click here, and leave your thoughts.

- - - - - - - -



Clicking there will take you to:



http://www.aahistory.com/nellwing/sign.php



What you write there will be made available

for Nell's family and friends.



- - - - - - - -



To see what was written in some of the other

Memorial Books, see for example:





Dr. Paul O.

http://www.aahistory.com/drpaulo.html



Searcy W.

http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest12.html

http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/guestbook12.html



Nancy O.

http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest17.html

http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/guestbook17.html



- - - - - - - -



For additional information about the Memorial

Book and/or the AAHistory website, contact:



"Doug B." dougb@aahistory.com

(dougb at aahistory.com)


0 -1 0 0
4105 ~ the >i
Obituary: Nell Wing Obituary: Nell Wing 2/15/2007 11:31:00 PM


Nell Wing's obituary, as posted on the Moore's

Funeral Home website:



http://www.mooresinfo.com/ecom/sp/;cat=obituaries;obit=2949



================

Janet E. (Now P.)

Michigan



"~ the >i< butterfly ~"

<butterfly2.4.79@comcast.net>

(butterfly2.4.79 at comcast.net)



emeritus archivist

1983-90 San Diego & Imperial Counties

California A.A.

================



THE TEXT OF THE OBITUARY:



Nellie Elizabeth Wing

Home: Wayne, NJ

Date of Death: February 14, 2007

Age: 89

Birthplace: Kendall, NY

Birthdate: May 27, 1917

Service Date: Saturday, Feb 24, 2007

at 4:00 pm

Visitation Date: Saturday, Feb 24, 2007

from 1-5PM

Service Place: Moore's Home For

Funerals, Wayne, NJ

Final Disposition: Laurel Grove

Crematory, Totowa, NJ



Nellie Elizabeth Wing, age 89, died Wednesday,

February 14, 2007 at Sunrise Assisted Living,

Wayne.



Ms. Wing was born May 27, 1917 in Kendall, NY

the daughter of the late William Frank and

the late Daisy (Shepard) Wing. She lived

in Wayne and was formerly of New York, NY.



Ms. Wing was a 1940 graduate of Keuka College

in NY. From 1944 – 1946 she served in the

US Coast Guard and earned the American Area

Campaign Medal and The World War II Victory

Campaign Medal.



She was the Administrative assistant to Bill

Wilson, the founder of A.A., in New York

City from 1947 until 1982. After that, she

traveled the world and became the 1st archivist

for A.A.



Ms. Wing attended the Lakeland Unitarian

Universalist Fellowship, in Wayne. She was

a Watercolor Artist and a Sculptor as well

as the Author of the book: GRATEFUL TO HAVE

BEEN THERE.



She is survived by Nephews; William L. Wing

of West Milford, David Wing of PA, Michael

Bowler of Las Vegas, NV and a Niece, Maria

Oplatka of CA. She was predeceased by her

Brothers, William F. and Roswell B. Wing

and her Sister, Mary Bowler.



Visiting hours will be Saturday, Feb. 24,

2007 from 1-5PM at Moore's Home for Funerals,

1591 Alps Road, Wayne, NJ. A service of will

be held at 4:00 pm and will be celebrated

by the family. Private cremation and burial

to follow.



Memorials may be made to the Alzheimer's

Association, 400 Morris Ave, Suite 251,

Denville, NJ 07853


0 -1 0 0
4106 Mike B.
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/14/2007 3:08:00 PM


From Mike B., James Blair, and Mitchell K.



- - - - - - - -



From: "Mike B." <mikeb384@verizon.net>

(mikeb384 at verizon.net)



"San Diego had promised a transportation system

that it did not deliver. As a result GSO had to pay

for our membership to get back and forth to the

venues. The check San Diego paid to GSO is only

the same amount GSO paid for transportation."



"When a group (GSO) brings about 50 million

dollars to a city this is nothing more than standard

business practice. Does a city get the Olympics

without promising to provide certain construction

for venues andtransportation?"



The above is absolutely correct. I worked in the

convention & trade show industry for 41 years

before retiring, and underwriting of certain

expenses, usually shuttle transportation is common

practice among major CVBs. It is a formula-based

usually on number of sleeping rooms picked up.



Mike B.

Happy to be retired



- - - - - - - -



From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



Tom H. wrote



The check San Diego paid to GSO is only the

same amount GSO paid for transportation. That

may well be but when City Council publicly votes

to give money to an organization which lays claim

to be "self-supporting" it creates confusion

in the minds of the public and the membership

and leaves our spirituality open to question. Is

that worth 150K?



Jim



- - - - - - - -



From: "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)



My mistake. I didn't think AA was supposed to be

like every other business like IBM, DOW Chemical

or the Olympics. Since when are we supposed to be

like any other business with so-called standard

business practices like being cut-throat,

discriminating against employees, canceling

pensions and the like. Are we using standard

business practices like Enron?



Lest problems of MONEY, PROPERTY (Intellectual

and other property), PRESTIGE and POWER divert

us from our primary purpose. GSO doesn't bring

$50 million dollars anywhere - AA MEMBERS

BROUGHT THAT MONEY! Please do not forget

that AA is comprised of members and not that

business in NYC. ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IS A

FELLOWSHIP OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO MEET TO SHARE

THEIR EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH AND HOPE WITH EACH

OTHER.


0 -1 0 0
4107 Mike Brewer
Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info 2/14/2007 9:58:00 AM


Does anyone have any biographical information

on Henry Parkhurst and/or his family/genealogy?



I am trying to work out his genealogy and all

his family connections, but the family was so

large, I am having difficulty working it out

without having more biographical data on him.



Any info about him could be a big help.



Birth/death dates, locations, parents' names,

etc.



Thanks, Mike


0 -1 0 0
4108 rollemupjohnson
Bill W. Letter? Bill W. Letter? 2/14/2007 10:42:00 PM


I'm looking for the source of a Bill W. quote:



"I want to remind myself and anyone who would

listen that AA is not a personal success story.

It is instead the story of our colossal human

failures...now converted into the happiest kind

of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living

grace of God"



Thanks,



JKell13@BellSouth.net

(JKell13 at BellSouth.net)



or



RollEmUpJohnson@Yahoo.com

(RollEmUpJohnson at Yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4109 edgarc@aol.com
Re: Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/15/2007 12:39:00 AM


Wynn's daughter is very approachable and

communicative via email. Contact me offlist

and I'll send along her email address.



Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla.

edgarc@aol.com

(edgarc at aol.com)


0 -1 0 0
4110 Bob McK.
A.A. International in San Diego A.A. International in San Diego 2/17/2007 12:00:00 PM


The original thread was the division of AA in

Mexico. This somehow got "kitchen-sinked" with

division in Finland plus the German copyright

case plus "cash incentives." These are separate

issues. I have no experience with all the

formers, just the latter.



It is my understanding that the San Diego cash

incentive was part of the package offered by

their Convention and Visitors Bureau to AA to

hold its International Convention in their

city. The GSB did not solicit this. At the 1997

General Service Conference Larry N., Trustee-

at-Large for the USA and a San Diego native,

was asked if his area solicited this from the

CVB. He saidthey did not.



Some Conference members there thought that

it is possible that some member(s) exhorted

them to do so. It was not AA as such, however.



The GSB policy was essentially that if the

same package would be offered any other "like

organization" then we may accept it. If we did

not accept the perquisites offered by hotels

and CVBs to hold our Conventions and Conferences

--i.e., free ballroom space, comp rooms, etc.--

then they would be priced out of our ability

to host them. These incentives are offered

not as contributions to us, but rather as

encouragement for us to hold them there and

not across the street (or across the country).



The Conference reviewed the GSB policy with

hours of debate and eventually upheld it

strongly. I seem to recall the vote was 110-12

in favor. And even at that some felt that some

of the dissenters came from parts of the

country that competed with San Diego for the

Int'l Convention and lost. They felt they had

"sour grapes."



The issue was revived in '99 and we somewhat

dismissed it, feeling it was sufficiently

covered the previous year. We were wrong. And

so the issue popped up again in 2000. It had

yet longer debate ending ultimately in another

decisive vote. I am told it was many-to-6.

I am also told that the dissenters thanked the

Conference for letting them have their say.



I am writing this with the intent of adding

my recollection of these historic events, not

as an effort to again stir up this controversy.


0 -1 0 0
4111 Mitchell K.
Re: Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info 2/17/2007 1:21:00 AM


Hi Mike,



The only living expert on Hank I know is

Merton M. who is a member of this group:



mertonmm3@yahoo.com

(mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)





--- Mike Brewer <tuswecaoyate@yahoo.com> wrote:



> Does anyone have any biographical information

> on Henry Parkhurst and/or his family/genealogy?

>

> I am trying to work out his genealogy and all

> his family connections, but the family was so

> large, I am having difficulty working it out

> without having more biographical data on him.

>

> Any info about him could be a big help.

>

> Birth/death dates, locations, parents' names,

> etc.

>

> Thanks, Mike

>

>


0 -1 0 0
4112 Tom Hickcox
Re: Bill W. Letter? Bill W. Letter? 2/16/2007 8:26:00 PM


Not a literal quote but very similar is a

letter Bill wrote in 1959 and quoted on p. 35

of A.A. Way of Life/As Bill Sees It



A.A. is no success story in the ordinary sense of

the word. It is a story of suffering transmuted,

under grace, into spiritual progress.



I would note that a number of quotes in

AAWL/ABSI are not true to the originals.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



- - - - - - - -



At 21:42 2/14/2007 , rollemupjohnson wrote:





>I'm looking for the source of a Bill W. quote:

>

>"I want to remind myself and anyone who would

>listen that AA is not a personal success story.

>It is instead the story of our colossal human

>failures...now converted into the happiest kind

>of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living

>grace of God"


0 -1 0 0
4113 Charles Knapp
Bill W. Letter? Bill W. Letter? 2/18/2007 4:25:00 AM


From Charles Knapp and Gary Rohde: the quote is

similar to something said on a recording of Bill

W. speaking in 1947.



- - -



From: "Charles Knapp" <cdknapp@pacbell.net>

(cdknapp at pacbell.net)



Hello



I believe the quote you gave is from an LP

recoded Bill made in April or May 1947. The

original version of the quote is as follows:



"Perhaps this is not the place to talk at

length of my own recovery, of our A.A. program

in detail, or of our astounding growth. This

room is filled with fellow alcoholics who know

and practice the A.A. way of life as well as

I. The accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous

are headlined in the press of the world. So

I shall be content if I can remind myself, and

any who would hear that Alcoholics Anonymous is

not, after all, a personal success story. It

is instead, the story of our colossal human

failures now converted into the happiest kind

of usefulness by that divine alchemy - the

living grace of God."



That was from a talk Bill gave April 9, 1947 in

Los Angeles. When Bill got back to New York he

revised his talk a little and cut a record that

the Alcoholic Foundation sold. I found information

in an early exchange bulletin that said the

records would go on sale in June 1947. If you

went to the International Convention in Toronto,

this quote was part of the GSO Archives display.



Encore Tapes sells a taped version of the

recording, but so far have been unable to find

a complete copy of his original talk.



Hope that helps

Charles for California





- - - - - - - -



From: <feelgoodcp@yahoo.com>

(feelgoodcp at yahoo.com)



I am not sure where it is written, but an old

timer's son who had passed, brought me a set of

orange red colored records with the rockhill

label. I understand these were produced in the

early days for new groups to play because they

had no members with sobriety. On those records

I heard the quote above.



Hope that helps



Gary Rohde

Ft Myers Florida



- - - - - - - -



Original message #4108 from:

<rollemupjohnson@yahoo.com>

(rollemupjohnson at yahoo.com)



Asked for the source of this Bill W. quote:



"I want to remind myself and anyone who would

listen that AA is not a personal success story.

It is instead the story of our colossal human

failures...now converted into the happiest kind

of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living

grace of God"



Thanks,



JKell13@BellSouth.net

(JKell13 at BellSouth.net)



or



RollEmUpJohnson@Yahoo.com

(RollEmUpJohnson at Yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4114 Gary Becktell
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 2/19/2007 10:03:00 PM


Just a note to correct a few of the facts here,

Arthur. I know how concerned you are with

accuracy.



There was concern about the exorbitant cost of

the German Big Book, the equivalent of about

$45 USD. All of the books that "they" published,

(the publishing venture was actually the work

of an AA Group, not just the one man that was

sued), were given away, not one was sold. They

were paid for by contributions of Groups and

individuals.



Later in your mail, you talk about the price

of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the

lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules

of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to

transport Big Books across a border into a

country that holds a license to publish from

AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to

Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS

Big Book is because they cannot legally import

them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still

exorbitant.

G





----- Original Message -----

From: Arthur Sheehan

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:28 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland)





Hi Lee



History is supposed to propagate facts not

beliefs. If you would care to review "the other

side" of the German lawsuit story, please refer

to AAHL messages 2860, 2873 and 2907.



Message 2860 contains a General Service Board

report to the 2004 General Service Conference.

It details how from 1993 (and for over a

decade) they tried to get the German AA member

to stop violating German copyright law (he was

actually distributing Big Books in several

countries in several languages).



Message 2873 responds to a criticism posted in

AAHL that echoed the same litany of criticisms

that have been directed at the GSB, AAWS and GSO.



Message 2907 is a detailed analysis of the

German Big Book translation versus the English

counterpart. The most stunning discovery was

how the German AA member, who is portrayed as

some sort of martyr (no pun intended on his

name) had no factual basis for his claims that

the German Big Book translation removed reference

to "God" and "spirituality" from text.



His whole case rested on torturous semantic

hair-splitting of the use of the German words

"geistig" and "seelisch" in the translation

instead of his preferred German word

"spirtuelle."



There is a point of interest regarding the past

$30 Big Book price in Mexico (which today's

Spanish language version costs $6 from AAWS).

The $3.50 price of the 1939 first edition Big

Book would be the equivalent of around $50 in

2006 dollars. It was a very expensive book.



An English language hard cover 4th edition Big

Book today costs $6 from AAWS. That's about 1/8

of what it cost 1i 1939 (disregarding collector's

value of course).



It would be nice to give the GSB, AAWS and GSO

some credit where credit is due.



Cheers

Arthur



(PS haven't posted here in a while - been very,

very busy)


0 -1 0 0
4115 Arthur Sheehan
RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 2/20/2007 10:47:00 PM


Hi Gary



I do try to be attentive to accuracy and thorough

research. When I post something it will be on

the basis of independent confirmation by written

source references (at least one - preferably

more than one). That's why the Trustees reports

to the 2004 Conference were cited in my last

posting. Consequently, I think your "corrections"

could do with a bit of correcting in turn.



The German member who was sued may have had

accomplices and allies (such as the Big Book

Study Group) but he was the central player

in the whole sorry episode. He is described in

the Trustees' reports as the operator of a

mail order book business in Germany who

published and distributed several Conference-

approved books and pamphlets, first in Germany

and subsequently, in other countries.



In 1993, he communicated with the GSOs in

Germany and Canada/US that he intended to

publish his German translation of "Alcoholics

Anonymous." It was not framed as a matter of

cost - it was framed as a matter of his

preference for words used in the translation

(which later proved baseless).



From 1993 on he was repeatedly advised that

his actions would/did constitute violations

of legal licensing agreements made by AAWS

who licenses one exclusive licensee per

country.



From 1994-1996, the German member traveled to

Mexico several times, where he met with a

small, but vocal group of AA members who were

challenging licenses to publish approved

translations of AA literature granted to the

General Service Board of AA in Mexico (Central

Mexicana).



In November 1996, he traveled to New York City

and asked to meet with the General Manager of

the GSO. The GM and a Staff member met with him

(and two friends of his from Germany). His

expressed concerns were reported as having to

do with the translation, not the cost, of the

Big Book.



In 1997 he illegally distributed books to

Sweden, Finland and Israel.



The Trustees' report states that by October

1997 he expanded distribution of "free" Big

Books to Russia. Catalogs describing his mail

order book business, and offering "AA

literature" for sale, began appearing in mail

directed to local Russian AA groups.



Perhaps the acceptance of so-called "7th

Traditions contributions" still means that the

books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge,

nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of

skepticism. In any event, I'm not aware of any

financial report ever posted or revealed by

the German member to determine if the venture

was purely altruistic.



In May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas

ruled in favor of AA. The following month the

German member appealed the ruling and extended

the court process for an additional four years.



In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in

Frankfurt decided in favor of AA and ruled

that the German member cease producing/distri-

buting Conference-approved literature in any

language. The Court affirmed the validity of

copyrights held in trust by AAWS and decreed

that the member reimburse AA for legal expenses,

including attorney fees.



Early in 2004, AA offered him an opportunity

to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees

provided he not publish or distribute

Conference-approved literature in any language

or country, now or in the future, and accept

all other stipulations in the Court's order.

He did not respond and AA subsequently asked

that the Court's final order be fulfilled.

I believe it cost the member $27,000 (based

on a Delegate's Conference report).



Now about the price of a Big Book (El Libro

Grande) in Mexico.



I went to the main AA web site in Mexico to

check the cost. Perhaps I'm interpreting things

wrong, but it seems that AA Mexico sells the

Spanish translation of the Big Book for

substantially less than what it costs in the

US. So I don't understand what evidence

produces the assertion that "The price from

the Mexican GSO is still Exorbitant"



The AA Mexico web site quotes a price of $33mn

and $17mn for a hard cover and abridged version

respectively ("mn" = New Mexico Peso - also

"mxn"). I then went to a currency conversion

web site and calculated $33 and $17mn as $3.00

and $1.55 in US dollars.



Gary, I've tried to carefully lay out the

verifiable sources of all the information

posted. I'd be curious to know what your

sources are. I certainly will accept

"corrections" in good faith - provided of

course that they are correct facts and not

just anecdotal contradictions.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: Gary Becktell

Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany)



Just a note to correct a few of the facts here,

Arthur. I know how concerned you are with

accuracy.



There was concern about the exorbitant cost of

the German Big Book, the equivalent of about

$45 USD. All of the books that "they" published,

(the publishing venture was actually the work

of an AA Group, not just the one man that was

sued), were given away, not one was sold. They

were paid for by contributions of Groups and

individuals.



Later in your mail, you talk about the price

of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the

lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules

of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to

transport Big Books across a border into a

country that holds a license to publish from

AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to

Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS

Big Book is because they cannot legally import

them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still

exorbitant.





G


0 -1 0 0
4116 Clyde G.
Finding quotes in AA Finding quotes in AA 2/21/2007 4:15:00 PM


From the moderator:



When you're trying to find a particular quote

in the Big Book, there are two concordances

to it where you can look up one of the words

in the quotation. Neither concordance is

perfect, but if you use both of them, you

will probably have found all of the instances

of that particular word in the Big Book:



http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/



http://www.royy.com/concord.html



A searchable text of the first part of the

Big Book is also available online:



http://anonpress.org/bb/



You can look up phrases on this site, in

addition to individual words.



The phrase asked for below ("jails,

institutions and death") is not found in

the first part of the Big Book, according

to this reference source. Or at least

it couldn't find it.



Looking up "jail" however gives us p. 107,

which is probably the original source of

the idea in that phrase.



Looking up "institution" gives us two more

places where that part of the phrase is

discussed: pp. 114, 110



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)



- - - - - - - -



A friend in the program asked me where in the

BB was the statement, "jails, institutions

and death" found that I refered to. I had

thought I had read it in the BB but dang if

I can find it. So I decided to ask the group

to either post it or send it to my address:



cloydg449@sbcglobal.net

(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)



Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95


0 -1 0 0
4117 do_der_weg
Price of a Big Book in German Price of a Big Book in German 2/21/2007 5:53:00 PM


Hi,



Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it

costs currently 15 Euros which would be about

20$ US.



Greetings, Petra


0 -1 0 0
4118 David Jones
Price of a Big Book in the UK Price of a Big Book in the UK 2/22/2007 1:04:00 PM


In the UK they cost £8.20 GBR, which is approx

$16 in US dollars.



Dave



- - - -



Hi,



Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it

costs currently 15 Euros which would be about

20$ US.



Greetings, Petra


0 -1 0 0
4119 David Jones
In the AA Big Book: "jails, institutions, or death" In the AA Big Book: "jails, institutions, or death" 2/22/2007 12:58:00 PM


Possible source for the phrase ‘jails,

institutions, or death’ could be:



“and unless locked up may die or go

permanently insane.” pg 24



“The persistence of this illusion is

astonishing. Many pursue it to the gates

of insanity or death.” pg 30



“innumerable trips to police courts,

sanitariums, hospitals, jails and

asylums.” pg 97



The most likely I would think is:



“Most of us have entered the final stage

with its commitment to health resorts,

sanitariums, hospitals, and jails.

Sometimes there were screaming delirium

and insanity. Death was often near.”

pg 107



God bless



Dave



- - - - - - - -



A friend in the program asked me where in the

BB was the statement, "jails, institutions

and death" found that I refered to. I had

thought I had read it in the BB but dang if

I can find it. So I decided to ask the group

to either post it or send it to my address:



cloydg449@sbcglobal.net

(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)



Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95


0 -1 0 0
4120 Jon Markle
Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" 2/22/2007 8:05:00 PM


From Jon M. + Floyd J.



- - - -



Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>

(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)



I believe the phrase "jails, institutions and

death" comes from NA.



For example, one quote, "If you are an addict,

you must first admit that you have a problem

with drugs before any progress can be made

toward recovery. These questions, when honestly

approached, may help to show you how using

drugs has made your life unmanageable. Addiction

is a disease which, without recovery, ends in

jails, institutions, and death."



From the pamphlet, "Am I an Addict?" Revised.

This is NA Fellowship-approved literature.

Copyright © 1983, 1988 by Narcotics Anonymous

World Services, Inc. All rights reserved.



I believe it's in the Basic Text of NA,

however I don't have my copy handy to look

it up to be sure.



Jon (Raleigh)

9/9/82



- - - -



From: Azor521@aol.com

(Azor521 at aol.com)



That statement is made in the Narcotics

Anonymous Book, pg. 3, 5th edition.



Also in NA literature as it is in the

statement, "What is an Addict."



Hope that helps.



Floyd J...... Southern California



- - - -



On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Clyde G. wrote:



> A friend in the program asked me where in the

> BB was the statement, "jails, institutions

> and death" found that I refered to. I had

> thought I had read it in the BB but dang if

> I can find it. So I decided to ask the group

> to either post it or send it to my address:

>

> cloydg449@sbcglobal.net

> (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

>

> Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95


0 -1 0 0
4121 tomper87
Finding quotes in Big Book and 12 & 12 Finding quotes in Big Book and 12 & 12 2/22/2007 11:00:00 PM


From tomper99 + Tommy H. (Baton Rouge)



- - - -



From: "tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com>

(tomper99 at yahoo.com)



Another very good concordance for BB and 12x12:



http://www.164andmore.com/index.php



Also available in paperback which I have found to

be very useful when away from the computer.



- - - -



From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



I have yet to find a concordance for A.A.

literature that I like unequivocally. The ones

I like best and get the results from most

readily include the sentence or part of the

sentence in which the word is used. I find

this a whole lot more convenient than a list of

words and the pages on which they are

found.



I own two concordances that list sentences or

partial sentences, the Purple Salamander

Press volume that came out in the '90s and

one for which I got a heads up recently "164

and More" which includes the Big Book and

the 12x12. There may be other concordances

that include sentences but I am unaware of

them. [This has everything to do with me. I

don't pretend to know all about A.A.

Concordances.]

- I suspect part of Clyde's problem is the quote

he is searching for may be in a story and

stories for the most part aren't included in

concordances.



My PDA has the Big Book on it, I believe I

bought it from Anonymous Press, and it has

several very nice features which come in

handy as I can unobtrusively use the PDA

during a meeting. For me a disadvantage of

electronic concordances is that one must put

the search info in exactly including

punctuation. The PDA program is nice as it

lists page and paragraph numbers.



I have not yet reached the point where I am

able to pull open my Big Book and go

directly to the word or phrase I'm looking for

so concordances serve a useful function for

me.



Information on "164 and More" is in message

#4055 in the list archives online.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4122 kattacruzin
Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville 2/25/2007 4:21:00 PM


Hello,



I'm doing some research on Marty Mann and

other women of her time. I've read the

Brown & Brown autobiography of her. The

Brown & Brown book talks about Marty

Mann having a relapse during some time

between 1959-64. Her partner Priscilla's

whereabouts during this time are unknown.

An unnamed woman from Bronxville found

Mann alone and relapsed in her NYC

apartment. According to Brown & Brown,

this apparently whisked Mann away to get

help from the relapse. I'm left wondering if

anyone knows who the unnamed woman

from Bronxville is? And did she stay in

touch with Mann after she helped her get

back on the right track?



Also, does anyone know what might have

precipitated Mann's slip? Perhaps her cancer

battles? But also, it seems that perhaps she

and Priscilla were having a hard time in their

relationship at that point--was that in any

way related to the slip (or vice-versa)?



Many thanks for any insights you might

have.



Kate


0 -1 0 0
4123 smithdewan
12 & 12 search engine 12 & 12 search engine 2/23/2007 5:04:00 PM


Is there a search for a word or phrase engine

that covers the 12&12 ?



- - - -



From the moderator:



Another very good concordance

for the Big Book and also for the

TWELVE STEPS & TWELVE TRADITIONS:



http://www.164andmore.com/index.php



- - - -



See Message #4121 from: "tomper87"

<tomper99@yahoo.com>

(tomper99 at yahoo.com)



"tomper87" said: "Also available in paperback

which I have found to be very useful when away

from the computer."


0 -1 0 0
4124 kattacruzin
Re: Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/25/2007 4:25:00 PM


Wynn Corum was an author of the big book story

"Freedom from Bondage." I believe her sobriety

date was late 1940's. She lived in L.A. and was

the step-mother of California writer Carolyn See.



- - - -



From the moderator:



See http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm



"Freedom From Bondage"

2nd edition #553, 3rd edition #544,

4th edition #544

Wynn Corum Laws (California)



Look for the story and then click on the

author's name to read the little biography of

Wynn which Nancy Olson wrote.



Also see Message #4099:



Wynn Corum Law's stepdaughter Carolyn See wrote

a book Dreaming: Hard Luck and Good Times in

America, which more or less tells Wynn's story.

I read it a few years ago and don't remember

it mentioning Marty Mann or their knowing each

other personally.



Fiona



- - - -



In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

"Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net

(rev.sally at worldnet.att.net)

wrote:

>

> Dave and I didn't come across Wynn Corum's name

> when we were researching the Marty Mann bio, but

> I would guess that both women did know each other.

>

> I would love to know about Wynn.

>

> City? Approximate sobriety date and age?

> Anything of her story? And what is Ann's

> particular interest? Etc?

>

> Thanks, and shalom - Sally

>

> Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R Brown:

> "A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady

> of Alcoholics Anonymous"


0 -1 0 0
4125 Mitchell K.
Price of a Big Book in various countries Price of a Big Book in various countries 2/25/2007 5:20:00 PM


For the sake of accuracy It would be beneficial to

hear from people from actual countries who buy big

books in their country to let this group know exactly

how much a big book costs there. We have been told by

a group member that he did the research and utilized

more than one source to get the actual price of books.

Unfortunately, persons from the actual countries who

shelled out money for the books report a different

price than what was reported.



If at all possible, the equivalent in US Dollars would

be helpful as well as the local currency. I personally

trust individual AA members' reporting of the price

they pay rather than the official AAWS approved office

in that country reporting on a price. There appears to

be a discrepancy in actual vs reported prices.





> In the UK they cost £8.20 GBR, which is approx

> $16 in US dollars.

>

> Dave

>

> - - - -

>

> Hi,

>

> Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it

> costs currently 15 Euros which would be about

> 20$ US.

>

> Greetings, Petra

>


0 -1 0 0
4126 Sally Brown
Re: Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville 2/25/2007 7:17:00 PM


In answer to Kate's questions about Marty

Mann's late relapse, I wish Dave and I had

the answers! The original information came

from my first AA sponsor, who had gotten

sober in Bronxville and lived there, very

active in AA, for 10 more years. She was the

one whom the unnamed woman called for

advice about what to do with Marty.

Unfortunately, so much time had passed, and

as the "rescuer" had long since moved away,

my sponsor could no longer recall her name.



While Dave and I were still doing our

research and making inquiries elsewhere, my

sponsor happened to visit Bronxville, and

asked the oldtimers still there if they

remembered the name. They recalled the

event, but again, too many years had

intervened. All anyone vaguely remembered

was that the young woman had moved to

Florida, they thought, not long after.



I've always hoped that that woman, or

someone in Florida who knew her, might

read our biography of Marty Mann, and

contact us.



At first I was a little disdainful that people

wouldn't remember the name of the young

woman, even though nearly 40 years had

transpired. How could anyone forget! Now,

with nearly 30 years of sobriety myself, I

understand. I'm darned if I can recall the

names of people from 10 years ago, who

were in our local AA only a year, then moved

far away with no further contact. Sometimes

I remember the person, and sometimes parts

of their stories. But names?



As we wrote, we could only speculate on the

possible contributing factors to Marty's

relapse. If somebody actually knows any

more of this part of the story, I hope he or

she will contact us.



Finally, our unexpected uncovering of

Marty's relapse was certainly a shock to a

number of persons, especially if they had

known her well and had no idea about it.

Some absolutely refused to believe it, others

were totally surprised yet not surprised. We

might not have included the account if we

hadn't been able to get two strong additional,

independent corroborations.



And good luck, Kate, on your research!

Maybe you'll be the one to solve the mystery

of the "unnamed woman."



Shalom - Sally



Rev Sally Brown

coauthor with David R. Brown:

A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:

The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain

United Church of Christ



www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Road, 309

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

Email: rev.sally@att.net

(rev.sally at att.net)


0 -1 0 0
4127 Mark Everett
Re:Price of a Big Book in various countries Price of a Big Book in various countries 2/26/2007 9:03:00 AM


I agree with Mitchell's request for more

information, and I would add that the reporter

include the source. For instance, I just did

some local searches here in the US and I

found the following prices. This could go

on and on, but, without the seller being

identified, it is a bit difficult to compare

pricing.



The prices I found for our Big Book (new,

not used) this morning on the web and via

current published price lists and they are:



A.A. (both GSO and my local Intergroup Office)

Soft Cover $5.60

Hard Cover $6.00

Hazelden

Soft Cover $10.00

Hard Cover $10.75

Amazon

Soft Cover $10.17

Hard Cover $10.85

Border's

Soft Cover $13.95

Barns & Noble

Soft Cover $14.95

Hard Cover $12.76



I guess the source of my purchase matters,

I have no comment as to the differences, I

just want to point out that there are

differences, and without noting my source,

my information is less than complete.



Mark


0 -1 0 0
4128 Fiona Dodd
Re: Price of a Big Book in various countries Price of a Big Book in various countries 2/26/2007 1:19:00 AM


Ireland, India, Australia, Greece, Canada



IRELAND



From: "Fiona Dodd"

<fionadodd@eircom.net>

(fionadodd at eircom.net)



The cost of a Big Book in Ireland is

(=6.23 which is roughly $8.20.



Regards

Fiona



- - - -



From: gerry donaghy

<frankaaaa2006@yahoo.co.uk>

(frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk)



Although it is 6.20 euros for a big book in

Ireland, some groups charge 8 euros for it.

My opinion and the opinion of many others

is that it should be free as GSO have lots of

funds available, the money they get from

groups.



- - - -



INDIA



From: "Aloke Dutt"

<alokedutt@hotmail.com>

(alokedutt at hotmail.com)



The price of soft cover English Big Book in

India is Rupees 110.00 = 2.4 US Dollars



- - - -



AUSTRALIA



From: "Ollie Olorenshaw"

<ollie_olorenshaw@yahoo.com.au>

(ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au)



A Big Book in Australia costs $17.60 which

is just under $US 14.00.



- - - -



GREECE



From: "Irene Sekros"

<irene.sekros@gmail.com>

(irene.sekros at gmail.com)



Hello, irene here, an alcoholic from Athens,

Greece.



Here are the prices we ask for the BB:



Euro 10.00 - Hard Cover, English version

(US $13.25)



Euro 9.00 - Soft Cover, English version

(US $11.92)



Euro 5.50 - Pocket Size, English version

(US $7.28)



Euro 10.00 - Soft Cover, Greek version

(US $$13.25)



Warm regards and g24h,

irene



- - - -



CANADA:



From: "silverg1" <silverg1@telus.net>

(silverg1 at telus.net)



In Calgary, Alberta, Canada we pay

C$11.00 (US$9.50) for hard cover 4th

edition Big Book from Central Office.



Gerry S.



- - - -



SOME OTHER NOTES



From: "Dennis M." <bxdennis@verizon.net@arkoehl.com >

(arkie at arkoehl.com)



I believe the book came out in 1939 at $3.50.

That equaled $50.69 by 2006.*



In any case, that makes today's editions look

rather reasonable, in any country and any

currency.



Arkie



*I used this consumer price index

calculator, FWIW


0 -1 0 0
4129 Irene Sekros
Price of a Big Book in various countries Price of a Big Book in various countries 2/26/2007 2:08:00 AM


Hello, irene here, an alcoholic from Athens, Greece.



Here are the prices we ask for the BB:

Euro 10.00 - Hard Cover, English version

Euro 9.00 - Soft Cover, English version

Euro 5.50 - Pocket Size, English version

Euro 10.00 - Soft Cover, Greek version.



Warm regards and g24h,

irene

****************************************************



On 2/26/07, Mitchell K. <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com> wrote:

>

> For the sake of accuracy It would be beneficial to

> hear from people from actual countries who buy big

> books in their country to let this group know exactly

> how much a big book costs there...

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4130 desbrittuk
AA history in Great Britain AA history in Great Britain 2/26/2007 8:48:00 PM


I've been knocking around AA in England since

1976. I've seen so many good people come and

go and so many "characters" who have livened

up our meetings over the years. I'm wondering

if there is an archive similar to what you

good folks in America have. Are there any

oldtimers in England reading this who might

know something of our history?



Des B in Kilburn, London.... (First meeting

in the Bull Ring in Birmingham, 1976 and then

First London 1978, York Street clubhouse,

Denver,1979-82 and back to London again.)


0 -1 0 0
4131 Gary Becktell
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 2/25/2007 5:33:00 PM


I don't know where to begin, Arthur. Calling

the members of the man's Home Group

'accomplices' seems a bit inflammatory. They

are fellow members, joined in a 12th Step

activity.



The mail order business was not engaged in the

Big Book give aways. You can refer to the

findings from the German Court in dismissing

the first complaint, the criminal charge.



The 'small but vocal group' you refer to in

Mexico was an entire service structure with

over 2,000 groups, with Districts, Areas,

Delegates and a Conference. The permission

(in Article Two) is given for the Conference

(not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and

only where a General Service Structure exists.

Central Mexicana was not a service structure

but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries

where a General Service Structure exists, the

United States/Canada Conference will delegate

sole right to publish our Conference-approved

Literature to the General Service Board of

that structure."



Your 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' comment

concerning profit is definitely not researched.

Before the civil case there was a criminal case

where the German Court found that there was

indeed no profiting going on.



http://gsowatch.aamo.info/ger/g8.gif



In fact, the books have a disclaimer on them

that states that they are free and should not

be bought or sold.



Further, the financial report you are not aware

of was given to the German court, which is part

of the reason they dismissed the criminal charges.

There is no evidence what-so-ever that there

was anything but an altruistic motive in this

case. As is a tradition in this country, guilt

must be proved, not innocence.



You mentioned that the German member did not

respond to the offer to forego reimbursement,

etc. What you didn't mention was that there

were many stipulations for that to take effect,

not just the one you mentioned. One of the

other stipulations was to reveal the names of

all members of the AABBSG (his Home Group),

breaking the anonymity of all at a public

level. Of course he refused, and started

paying.



I would like to remind everyone that all the

Big Books that were printed in Germany and

Mexico were from the First or Second Editions,

which are both in the Public Domain.



I suspect that is enough for now. I would like

to suggest that anyone even slightly concerned

about these issues read Concept XII, Warranty 5.

In my Service Manual, it suggests that we not

sue anyone, at any time, for any reason.

Further, it says, "Some deviators have suffered

rather severe personal criticism from individual

AA members, and this is to be deplored." This

was written by Bill W. Every piece of evidence

points that this man and his group were

carrying the AA message as best they could.

While one may disagree with their methods,

the hateful attacks seem inappropriate.

Please reread Warranty 5.



G





----- Original Message -----

From: Arthur Sheehan

Subject: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico

(and Germany)





Hi Gary



I do try to be attentive to accuracy and thorough

research. When I post something it will be on

the basis of independent confirmation by written

source references (at least one - preferably

more than one). That's why the Trustees reports

to the 2004 Conference were cited in my last

posting. Consequently, I think your "corrections"

could do with a bit of correcting in turn.



The German member who was sued may have had

accomplices and allies (such as the Big Book

Study Group) but he was the central player

in the whole sorry episode. He is described in

the Trustees' reports as the operator of a

mail order book business in Germany who

published and distributed several Conference-

approved books and pamphlets, first in Germany

and subsequently, in other countries.



In 1993, he communicated with the GSOs in

Germany and Canada/US that he intended to

publish his German translation of "Alcoholics

Anonymous." It was not framed as a matter of

cost - it was framed as a matter of his

preference for words used in the translation

(which later proved baseless).



From 1993 on he was repeatedly advised that

his actions would/did constitute violations

of legal licensing agreements made by AAWS

who licenses one exclusive licensee per

country.



From 1994-1996, the German member traveled to

Mexico several times, where he met with a

small, but vocal group of AA members who were

challenging licenses to publish approved

translations of AA literature granted to the

General Service Board of AA in Mexico (Central

Mexicana).



In November 1996, he traveled to New York City

and asked to meet with the General Manager of

the GSO. The GM and a Staff member met with him

(and two friends of his from Germany). His

expressed concerns were reported as having to

do with the translation, not the cost, of the

Big Book.



In 1997 he illegally distributed books to

Sweden, Finland and Israel.



The Trustees' report states that by October

1997 he expanded distribution of "free" Big

Books to Russia. Catalogs describing his mail

order book business, and offering "AA

literature" for sale, began appearing in mail

directed to local Russian AA groups.



Perhaps the acceptance of so-called "7th

Traditions contributions" still means that the

books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge,

nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of

skepticism. In any event, I'm not aware of any

financial report ever posted or revealed by

the German member to determine if the venture

was purely altruistic.



In May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas

ruled in favor of AA. The following month the

German member appealed the ruling and extended

the court process for an additional four years.



In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in

Frankfurt decided in favor of AA and ruled

that the German member cease producing/distri-

buting Conference-approved literature in any

language. The Court affirmed the validity of

copyrights held in trust by AAWS and decreed

that the member reimburse AA for legal expenses,

including attorney fees.



Early in 2004, AA offered him an opportunity

to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees

provided he not publish or distribute

Conference-approved literature in any language

or country, now or in the future, and accept

all other stipulations in the Court's order.

He did not respond and AA subsequently asked

that the Court's final order be fulfilled.

I believe it cost the member $27,000 (based

on a Delegate's Conference report).



Now about the price of a Big Book (El Libro

Grande) in Mexico.



I went to the main AA web site in Mexico to

check the cost. Perhaps I'm interpreting things

wrong, but it seems that AA Mexico sells the

Spanish translation of the Big Book for

substantially less than what it costs in the

US. So I don't understand what evidence

produces the assertion that "The price from

the Mexican GSO is still Exorbitant"



The AA Mexico web site quotes a price of $33mn

and $17mn for a hard cover and abridged version

respectively ("mn" = New Mexico Peso - also

"mxn"). I then went to a currency conversion

web site and calculated $33 and $17mn as $3.00

and $1.55 in US dollars.



Gary, I've tried to carefully lay out the

verifiable sources of all the information

posted. I'd be curious to know what your

sources are. I certainly will accept

"corrections" in good faith - provided of

course that they are correct facts and not

just anecdotal contradictions.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: Gary Becktell

Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany)



Just a note to correct a few of the facts here,

Arthur. I know how concerned you are with

accuracy.



There was concern about the exorbitant cost of

the German Big Book, the equivalent of about

$45 USD. All of the books that "they" published,

(the publishing venture was actually the work

of an AA Group, not just the one man that was

sued), were given away, not one was sold. They

were paid for by contributions of Groups and

individuals.



Later in your mail, you talk about the price

of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the

lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules

of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to

transport Big Books across a border into a

country that holds a license to publish from

AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to

Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS

Big Book is because they cannot legally import

them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still

exorbitant.



G


0 -1 0 0
4132 Lee Nickerson
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 2/23/2007 7:51:00 AM


I thought back then that the outrage was not

over this member's or Group's actions, but the

public lawsuit instigated by AA, which is

expressly verboten by our Traditions, Concepts,

and Co-Founder.


0 -1 0 0
4133 pmds@aol.com
Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, or death" Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, or death" 2/26/2007 2:55:00 AM


"Jails, institutions or death" is part of the

preamble in Narcotics Anonymous meetings.


0 -1 0 0
4134 gerry d
Connor F. Connor F. 2/26/2007 7:30:00 AM


I was looking for a photo of Connor F. and

Bill W.,which I think was taken around the

time Connor F. came to Ireland on a holiday

in 1946, he was persuaded by his wife to start

an AA group in Ireland, when he went to St.

Pat's Hospital to find alcoholics he was told

there were no alkies in that part of Ireland

lol...



But he suceeded in gettin it going and today

we have hundreds of groups here.



....btw the 50th All Ireland Convention is

coming up in April, for full details visit

our website



>>>>http://www.tallaghtbigbook.com<<<<



If anyone has a pic or any pics from around

that time I would be very gratefull for some



>>>my em is>>>>frankaaaa2006@yahoo.co.uk



(frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk)


0 -1 0 0
4135 ~ the >i
Re: Finding quotes in Big Book Finding quotes in Big Book 2/25/2007 8:22:00 PM


JFYI,



there are a host of resources to search the

big book on-line.



None of which I have encountered that are

"official" ... nevertheless, viable adjuncts

to finding quotes when needed.



(The concordance for the 12x12 mentioned

earlier, is the only one I've seen.)



For the "big book" ...



Here is one:



http://www.whytehouse.com/big_book_search/



__________________________________



an additional link of study:



http://www.sober.org/



an audio version:

http://www.aarootsrevival.com/Big-Book-Study.htm



and a format for the fourth that is very

organized and true to the book (a great

print out!):



http://www.recovery.org/aa/PDF/step4.pdf





All these links I highly recommend to

serious study.



Janet P.

emeritus archivist


0 -1 0 0
4136 Henrik Rue
Price of a Big Book in Denmark Price of a Big Book in Denmark 2/27/2007 4:03:00 PM


Hi all,



The price in Denmark is 190 Danish Kroner

~ $33 for a hardcover copy in Danish

and 120 Danish kroner ~ $21 in English



And 165 Danish kroner ~ $28

for a soft cover copy in Danish

and 100 Danish kroner ~ $17 in English



In love and service



Henrik Rue



E-mail : henrik.rue@edb.dk

(henrik.rue at edb.dk)



Homepage: http://www.12stepping.dk


0 -1 0 0
4137 John Lee
Re: Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" 2/25/2007 5:24:00 PM


Dozens of times I've heard people at AA

meetings say, "It's in the Big Book" , and

then go on to quote from the NA Basic Text.



"More will be revealed" is commonly heard,

and the ubiquitious, "people, places and

things." The latter is a segment of the

"Second Interesting Proposal", found after

the NA Steps.



John Lee

Pittsburgh


0 -1 0 0
4138 chesbayman56
Significant March Dates in A.A. History Significant March Dates in A.A. History 2/28/2007 8:03:00 PM


March 1936 - AA had 10 members staying sober. At end of 1936 A.A. had

15 members.

March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

Works Publishing Inc established to support writing and printing of

the book.

March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of

reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group.

March 1941 - Second printing of Big Book.

March 1941 - 1st Prison AA Group formed at San Quentin.

March 1946 - The March of Time film is produced by NY AA office.

March 1949 - Dr. Bob considers idea of AA conference premature.

March 1951 - American Weekly publishes memorial article for Dr. Bob.

March 1, 1939 - Readers Digest fails to write article on AA.

March 1, 1941 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article

published and membership jumped from 2,000 to 8,000 by years end.

March 3 1947 - Nell Wing started work at Alcoholic Foundation 415

Lexington Avenue.

March 4, 1891 - Lois W is born.

March 5, 1945 - Time Magazine reports Detroit radio broadcasts of AA

members.

March 7, 1940 -- Bill and Lois visited the Philadelphia AA group.

March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted

to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury

St., at 8 PM Wednesdays.

March 9, 1941 - Wichita Beacon reports AA member from NY who wants to

form a group in Wichita.

March 10, 1944 - New York Intergroup was established.

March 11, 1949 - The Calix Society, an association of Roman Catholic

alcoholics who are maintaining their sobriety through participation

in Alcoholics Anonymous, was formed in Minneapolis by five Catholic

AA members.

March 14, - South Orange, NJ, AA group held an anniversary dinner

with Bill W as guest speaker

March 15, 1941 - 1st AA group formed in New Haven, Connecticut. Not

reported in paper until Oct 1, 1941.

March 16, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation & Works Publishing move from

Newark to 30 Vesey St in lower Manhattan. First headquarters of our

own.

March 21, 1881 - Anne R, Dr Bobs wife, is born.

March 21 1966 - Ebby dies.

March 22, 1951 - Dr William Duncan Silkworth dies at Towns Hospital.

March 22, 1984 - Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister", dies.

March 23, 1936 - Bill & Lois visit Fitz M, "Our Southern Friend", in

Maryland.

March 25, 1898 -- Jim B ("The Vicious Cycle") was born.

March 29, 1943 -- The Charleston Mail, WV, reported on Bill W's talk

at St. John's Parish House.

March 31, 1947 - 1st AA group formed in London, England.


0 -1 0 0
4139 Terry Smith
Percentage women in AA worldwide? Percentage women in AA worldwide? 3/1/2007 1:54:00 PM


Hello Everyone



My name is Terry and I'm an Alcoholic. I have

just taken on the commitment of History

Secretary at The Barking Big Book Study --

The Way Out.



What is the percentage of women today within

AA worldwide?





I would be grateful for any information or

guidance.



Many thanks and God bless



regards



Terry


0 -1 0 0
4140 Paul S.
Price of a Big Book in Finland Price of a Big Book in Finland 2/28/2007 12:04:00 PM


Hi there (over there)



Today I was visting our Local Service Office

(perhaps you could call it intergroup).



Prices:



Big Book in Finnish language 10 euros (13.35 USD,

I presume)



Pocket version (Finnish) 8 euros



Big Book in English language 14 euros



If you post-order them you have to pay the cost.



(My homegroup buys them and usually gives

them for free to newcomers after their first

or second meeting a little depending on the

circumstances.)



All the best



Paul S. aka soberfinn

Helsinki, Finland


0 -1 0 0
4141 jenny andrews
RE: AA history in Great Britain AA history in Great Britain 2/28/2007 5:35:00 AM


Share magazine - the British counterpart of

Grapevine - has produced a book called Share

and Share Alike to mark the 60th anniversary

of AA's foundation in Britain (England,

Scotland and Wales) on 31 March 1947. It

contains stories from each of the past six

decades of Share and its predecessor the AA

Newsletter. The book also includes information

about the British Fellowship's history. The

price is £4.75 sterling (inc p+p), checks

etc. payable to 'General Service Office'.



Send orders to:



Share and Share Alike,

PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green,

York YO1 7NJ UK.



Laurie A.,

Editor, Share


0 -1 0 0
4142 Soberholic
The Division of AA in FINLAND The Division of AA in FINLAND 2/28/2007 12:45:00 AM


Gary Becktell <gk@kitcarson.net> wrote:



"The permission

(in Article Two) is given for the Conference

(not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and

only where a General Service Structure exists.

Central Mexicana was not a service structure

but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries

where a General Service Structure exists, the

United States/Canada Conference will delegate

sole right to publish our Conference-approved

Literature to the General Service Board of

that structure."



This is not the case in Finland. Our General

Service Structure was founded in 1998 - a year

after the coup d'état performed by an organized

group of loud and violent A.A. members in the

annual meeting of Finnish A.A. in February 1997.

Some 15-20 % of the groups decided not to accept

all that happened and especially the false report

of the event that was given to members. The rest

of the groups swallowed the report reluctantly

but time has done its work and the report has

become "the official truth"



The older structure that resembles more a

labor union than A.A. structure has still

the rights to publish literature.



http://www2.stakes.fi/nat/pdf/04/NAT304.pdf :



A. Leppo:

Grassroot democracy in an organized

organization. Direct and representative

democracy in the Finnish AA-movement



AIM

Alcoholics Anonymous’s non-hierarchical and

nonbureaucratic organisation structure and its

ability to maintain its unity is unique.



AA has a “formal” level of decision-making –

the AA service structure. The main activity

for most members, however, is the grass-root

activity in individual AA groups. There are

certain tensions between these two. This case

study analyses a conflict around the movement’s

decision making structure in Finland in the

late 1990’s. The disagreements led eventually

to the founding of a new AA service structure

which led in fact to 2 parallel service

structures. The study also looks at the

consequences the conflict had on the Finnish

AA movement and its vitality.



DATA

The data is qualitative and consists primarily

of taped interviews with 26 AA members. In

addition, textual material written by AA

members was analysed.



RESULTS

The analysis of the interviewees’ accounts

revealed that the conflict was rooted in the

movement’s concrete decision-making practices

as well as collective identities entwined

with the members’ social position. The grass-

root activity of AA groups remained active

despite the disputes on the movement’s

organisational level and a majority of the

members remained uninterested in the dispute.

The conflict did, however, affect the movement’s

ability to hold on to old members and attract

new ones. Furthermore, it caused hurtful

feelings to many and questioned the members’

feeling of belonging together.



CONCLUSION

It is suggested that the fact that the

conflict resulted in the founding of a new AA

service structure – instead of for example

further specialisation on the group level –

reflects the Finnish society and its

organisational traditions.


0 -1 0 0
4143 JOHN e REID
Father Dunlea articles (2) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 Father Dunlea articles (2) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM


A series of articles by Father Thomas V.

Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946,

Number 2.



PLEA FOR IRISH BRANCH OF

SOCIETY TO AID ALCOHOLICS



Dublin Evening Mail

Saturday, October 4, 1946



The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous, to

which he belonged, would very much like

to see a branch opened up in this country,

said the Rev. Thomas V. Dunlea, parish

priest of Sutherland, near Sydney, Australia,

in an interview with an Evening Mail

representative in which he described the work

being done in his parish to help alcoholics.



A native of Tipperary, Father Dunlea is

founder and director of Australia's Boys

Town and is touring America, Canada and

Ireland to learn all he can of the social work

being done in those countries.



Though our representative tried to draw

Father Dunlea out he refused to criticise any

aspect of Irish social work, holding that it is

not for him to criticise or hurt anyone's

feelings.



HOW THE SOCIETY BEGAN



The Society was started in America in 1934

by two addicts who formed a club for their

fellow suffers. For the first year there were

three members and in the second year they

had five.



In the succeeding years they recruited their

members successfully that today there are

more than 50,000 addicts formed into loosely

knit societies or clubs in America, New

Zealand, Australia and England.



In October, 1944, when Boy's Town was just

three years old, Father Dunlea found time to

found a branch of the Society in Sydney with

Dr. Minogue, a famous Australian

psychiatrist, and Mr. A. McKinnon a

Scottish officer of a Sydney mental home.



A remarkable point about the two Homes

which Sydney now posses is the fact that

people who work among addicts and seek to

cure them of their complaint are fellow

suffers who have benefited from the Homes.



In the words of Father Dunlea "The Society

believes that only an alcoholic can cure an

alcoholic, as it is only a fellow suffer who

can open a line of transmission to the heart of

the patient."



The different clubs or societies as they are

usually called come together to discuss each

other's problems.



The only qualification for membership is a

sincere desire on the part of the alcoholic to

abstain from drinking. These clubs are purely

convalescent homes and not institutions

where members can stay indefinitely.



Once they show signs of recovery and the

drinking has been arrested they are sent back

to their old jobs. If they should fall back into

their old ways again one of the workers goes

out and bring them back -- or if they are very

bad to send them to hospital.



There are no hard and fast rules in the clubs

and no president or committee to run things.



POLITICS TABOO



The members live together, doing more or

less as they please, while the workers, who

can speak from experience, gradually talk

them out of the highly strained and nervous

condition to which they become prone. No

temperance advocates are admitted to the

clubs nor what are known as controlled

drinkers.



Ministers of religion, doctors and social

workers can all help, but like all other

non-alcoholics, they must keep severely to

their own duties and never mention the

subject of drink.



Any subject which might upset the

convalescent peace of mind, such as that of

politics, is carefully kept out of the

conversation.



WOMEN VICTIMS



The sufferers are taken from mental homes,

jails, and street corners and usually kept in

the clubs for two or three weeks. The first

man with whom Father Dunlea came in

contact had been in a mental home eight

times.



He said that alcohol addicts were usually

clever people in professional occupations

which called for a creative mind.



Quite a number of women were included

among them. The war had been a great

factor in increasing the number of alcoholics

in the world, while a shortage of liquor had

worsened the condition of those who had

already been sufferers.



NATIONAL PROBLEM



Father Dunlea said that in the history of the

world there was probably never such a great

a amount of alcoholism as existed today.



It presented a national problem, and he

considered the movement that had started

in Australia as proverbially timely.



In America a clinic to deal with the subject

had been established by Yale University, and

a wealthy personage had endowed a

campaign to educate the public in the

disease.



Alcoholism, he said, was one of the four

main health problems facing the world

today, taking its place with T.B., cancer, and

V.D. and it was one that the average person

knew practically nothing.



DRY HORRORS



There were two characteristics to be found in

nearly all alcoholics. They were hyper-

sensitivity and ego-centricity. When an

inebriate first tried to give up the use of

intoxicants he passed through what were

known as "dry horrors". His mind became

increasingly a prey to anxious thoughts and

even delusions and obsessions.



Those could be relieved altogether by two or

three strong doses of alcohol. But the

inebriate could not stop once he had felt the

effect of these doses and became a helpless

slave, going on and on until he found himself

under restraint.



A person usually took a drink to that extent

to get away from some wrong which was

troubling him.



VERY SENSITIVE



They became very sensitive and had to be

treated very carefully.



To them a non-alcoholic was like a back seat

driver who did nothing but state the obvious

to the driver.



They were sick people and had to be treated

as such. So the Society concentrated on that

and made no criticism of the amount of drink

taken by people and made no effort to close

public houses.



All the workers kept their names secret from

the public, hence their title-Alcoholics

Anonymous.



A great spirit of friendship was engendered

among all the members and workers and

the Society could claim to be one of the few

on earth, if not the only one, in which God

could be discussed by Jews, Protestants and

Catholics in a manner which hurt no one's

feelings.



END OF TRANSCRIPT OF Article No 2.


0 -1 0 0
4144 JOHN e REID
Father Dunlea articles (1) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 Father Dunlea articles (1) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 3/1/2007 8:48:00 PM


A series of articles by Father Thomas V. Dunlea

in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946.



- - - -



Background: AA goes international, from

Australia to Ireland.



Australia October 1944 -- first non-American

AA branch started in Sydney, Australia by

Father Thomas V. Dunlea and Rex (see AAHL

Message 3746).



Ireland November 1946 -- then Ireland via

Father Tom from down under and Conor F.



Conor F. was "persuaded" by his wife after

reading articles in the Dublin Evening Mail

(October 1946) written by Father Thomas V.

Dunlea, a Roman Catholic priest from Australia

who was visiting Ireland (where he had

originally been born, in Tipperary).



Notes by John R.



(1) As per all possibilities with the outside

media reporting about A.A. there could be

some journalistic licence taken in the articles

about and following on from Fr. Tom D., in

accuracies in numbers, terminology used, etc.

It is more to do with history time lines than

critique of the wording and interpretations

of the 1940's in Ireland and it was well

before the advent of the Traditions. However

one can see the simplicity of the "Preamble."



(2) Errors could occur in my re-print, in that

the copies of the newspapers I have a very

blurred.



- - - -



Fr. Tom Dunlea article (1) Dublin Evening Mail,

Friday, October 4, 1946



A brief extract only from this first article.



AN AUSTRALIAN BOYS' TOWN



Visiting Clergyman Impressed

By Work Of Mount St. Club.



Rev. Thomas V. Dunlea, Tipperary-born Parish

Priest of Sutherland near Sydney, Australia.



He is the founder and director of Australian

Boys' Town, the only equivalent in the world

to Father Flanagan's institution in America.

He is also a co-founder of a branch of the

Alcoholics Anonymous Society in Sydney, which

was formed to help suffers from alcoholism

to overcome this weakness and return to work.


0 -1 0 0
4145 JOHN e REID
Father Dunlea articles (3) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 Father Dunlea articles (3) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM


A series of articles by Father Thomas V.

Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946,

article number 3.



TO HELP SUFFERERS FROM ALCOHOLISM



Dublin Evening Mail

Friday, November 1, 1946



An effort is to be made in Dublin to help the

sufferers from alcoholism to overcome the

obsession which compels them to drink

against their will.



The method to be used is known as

Alcoholics Anonymous, about which little

was known in this country until the recent

visit here by of Father Dunlea, an Associate

member of the organisation in Sydney,

Australia who outlined the scheme to the

Evening Post on Oct, 5th. Since then a

member of the Society in Philadelphia,

U.S.A. has arrived on a visit and yesterday

told an Evening Mail reporter of the great

success which it has achieved in America and

of what it has meant to him personally. Born

in Roscommon, he emigrated to America 17

years ago.



[This was Conor Flynn. See AAHistory

Lovers Message 3623, where Nancy Olson

tells the whole story.]



ON DRINKING BOUTS



For the first seven years of his life in

America he drank practically no alcohol, but

after two years of social drinking he

suddenly went on a two day drinking bout.

Immediately after this he took a pledge for

one year. After one year of sobriety he felt

that he could safely drink normally again

only to find that after a few short weeks of

social drinking he was out on a four-day

drinking bout. The next two years of his life

were spent in periodic drinking bouts during

which time the periods of sobriety gradually

became shorter and less frequent.



During this time h visited many sanatoria and

hospitals and had the attention of the best

doctors and psychiatrists, only to find that

very little could be done to control his

drinking. All this time he had been a

successful business man with a nice home

and was happily married. He could find no

reason for his abnormal drinking.



LOST THE DESIRE



While in one of the hospitals he was

contacted by a member of Alcoholics

Anonymous. He had no reason to believe the

Society could keep him sober, but as he has

tried everything else without success and had

an had an honesty desire for sobriety he

decided to give it a trial. After joining the

organisation he was amazed to find that it

was composed of happy members who had

been many years sober and had rid

themselves of their alcoholic obsession.



After 3 1/2 years in A.A. he found he no

longer had any desire to drink an now

states that if he had the choice between

drinking normally again and his present

existence he would prefer sobriety and the

association of A.A.



All that is necessary to become a member is

a sincere desire to stop drinking. No charge

is made for joining the Society, and there are

no paid workers, everything being done by

the members, who look upon it as an

avocation.



The Society does not cater for controlled

drinkers, its only aim being to help those who

have an obsession for drink.



Full information will be given freely to those

who apply through the box number at the end

of this article. It is the hope of this gentleman

that by December nucleus of workers will

have been formed here to carry on the good

work. True to the name of the Society he

desires to remain anonymous.



Will those interested write for free

information to Box D554.



END OF TRANSCRIPT OF Article No. 3


0 -1 0 0
4146 JOHN e REID
Dublin Evening Mail articles (4) Dublin Evening Mail articles (4) 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM


Article number 4: report on the actual start

of A.A. in Ireland, follow-up on the Father

Thomas V. Dunlea articles.



ALCOHOLICS FORM NEW BODY



Dublin Evening Mail

Saturday, November 23, 1946



The Alcoholics Anonymous Association,

formed to help sufferers from the dreaded

disease of alcoholism, has recently

established a small group in Dublin.



Several private meetings have already been

held as a result of which those who attended

have derived considerable benefit and have

become convinced that they have not been

able to find any other way.



The first public meeting of the Association

will be held on Monday at 7:45 p.m., in the

Country Shop, St. Stephen's Green, Dublin.

Three of the speakers will be alcoholics and

members of the Dublin group.



DOCTOR TO SPEAK



In addition, a doctor who is one of Dublin's

leading psychiatrists and who has made a

deep study of alcoholism, will give the

meeting the benefit of his professional

knowledge on this important subject.



True to the name of the Society all will

remain anonymous. It is hoped that all who

have a sincere desire to stop drinking and to

lead a normal, useful life will take this

opportunity of learning what the Association

offers as a constructive policy of recovery.



It is also hoped that any who are interested

directly attend with the object of hearing

what the Association has done and is daily

doing for alcoholics.


0 -1 0 0
4147 spebsqsa@att.net
Re: Percentage women in AA worldwide? Percentage women in AA worldwide? 3/1/2007 4:41:00 PM


The percentage of women in A.A. in the

United States and Canada according to

the Triennial Surveys of Members was:



1968 22%

1971 25%

1974 25%

1977 33%

1980 33%

1983 33%

1986 34%

1989 35%

2001 33%

2004 35%



Some years the pamphlet gave it as a

percentage. Other years it was stated

as "one in four" or "one in three."


0 -1 0 0
4148 Arthur S
RE: Percentage women in AA worldwide? Percentage women in AA worldwide? 3/2/2007 9:07:00 AM


Hi Terry



Check the link http://aa.org/en_media_resources.cfm?PageID=75



Or go to AA.org, click on Media Resources then

click on AA Membership Survey then click on

the image to read a PDF file of the 2004

membership survey.



The 2004 Membership Survey cites an estimate

of %36 for women in the US/Canada. I don't

know how well that percentage projects

worldwide.



The next survey is due to be conducted this year.



Arthur


0 -1 0 0
4149 spebsqsa@att.net
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico The Division of AA in Mexico 3/2/2007 9:54:00 PM


Didn't the split of A.A. in Mexico have

something to do with social class?

Maybe I missed it but I don't recall

seeing that mentioned in this topic.


0 -1 0 0
4150 Arthur S
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 3/2/2007 11:15:00 PM


To Gary B and Lee N -

this is a very long reply



The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are

historic AA milestones whether or not they

are viewed as infamous. Their history should

be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both

supporters and critics. Many AA members

have staked out a position, some with

reasoned argument and others with vitriol.



The Traditions and Concepts are often cited

as inviolable and near scriptural

commandments that predetermine what the

conduct of those who brought the lawsuit

should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely

directed at the German member who was

found guilty of breaking the law. He is

typically portrayed as a noble victim

absolved of his legal infractions because he

wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who

stopped him from breaking the law are

typically portrayed as villains having "hateful

intentions."



While it may be hard for some AA members

to swallow, bodies of codified principles

exist that take precedence over the Steps,

Traditions and Concepts. They consist of

state and national laws and treaties having

the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor

Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step

activities" provide a refuge of extralegal

privilege to evade the law and the resulting

consequences of its infraction.



When AA members are involved in 12th Step

calls, it does not grant them extralegal

privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore

red lights on the way to carry AA's message.

Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with

a Big Book translation, it does not endow

them with extralegal privilege to print their



own preferred version in violation of

copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th

Step activity."



Events leading up to the German lawsuit

were premised on claims that the translation

of the German Big Book lacked words

denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted

words denoting "psychological" and

"intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The

website that supported the German member

carried the following statements:



----------

"A scientific research revaled [sic]

differences between BBSG and German GSO

versions of the big book.



BBSG translated the multilith manuscript,

because we were sure there were no

restrictions by any copyright protection on it.

German GSO sold a translation of 1983

based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this

had many mistakes. For example: The 11

chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108

times in the multilith manuscript and 106

times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of

1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight

times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it

was mostly replaced by "seelisch --

psychological" and/or by "geistig --

intellectual". This, among other faults,

diluted the spiritual foundations of our

recovery program and resulted in an

extremely high relapse rate of more than

95% among German AA members. We felt

obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation

of [sic] has the correct German word

"spirituell". There is more background

information available at [.]"

----------



The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and

unsubstantiated (but often repeated these

days in AA as part of various agendas). That

piece of fiction stems from the

misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989

GSO report on preceding AA membership

surveys.



Attempting to link bogus Big Book

translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus

95% relapse rate as cause and effect is

beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators

were motivated by "anti-spiritual

resentments" illustrates the disparaging

hyperbole that has permeated and polluted

commentary on the matter from its onset.



The BBSG research was anything but

"scientific." In their web site statement

the German word "giestig" was defined to

only mean "intellectual." It has several

meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The

word "seelisch" (derived from the German

word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only

mean "psychological" when it too has several

meanings one of which is also "spiritual."

The German member asserted that the word

"spirituell" should have been used to denote

the English word "spiritual." That's how the

whole episode started. It was all a matter of

semantic preference.



Two Word documents were available that

purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in

the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book

translations. After personally examining both

of them line by line it was plainly evident

that claims of translation shortcomings were

disingenuous and far more delusional than

definitive.



The Big Book copyright has expired only in

the US and is still in force outside the US

through international treaty agreements.



In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on

Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized

that a public lawsuit is a public controversy,

something in which our Tradition says we

may not engage." His statement was in

reference to a matter in the early 1950s of

whether AA should petition Congress for

congressional incorporation of the name

"Alcoholics Anonymous."



The Conference decision was "no" but

matters changed over time and the name

"Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were

legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's

statement about lawsuits is not frozen in

perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached

the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and

Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His

Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early

1950s and his Concepts essays from the

early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate

such things as the world-wide internet,

desk-top publishing, digitization and the

international explosion of treaties and laws

protecting intellectual property rights.



From the material I've collected over the past

years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack

of balance and civil discussion in presenting

both sides of the issue. The greatest part of

the internet data consists of rather harsh

accusations against the Board, AAWS and

GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy

out of the episode or having little better to do

than seek out errant AA members to punish

them.



Something that is not well known in regard to

lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995

Conferences. The 1993 case involved the

circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped

and so were some recommendations of a

special ad hoc committee formed the prior

year to address the matter. The ad hoc



committee's recommendation that "The

Conference find that the initiation of

litigation involving trademarks and service

marks is a violation of Warranty Five"

wound up as "not considered" in the

Conference proceedings.



The 1995 Conference concerned both the

situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit.

The 1995 Conference voted not to consider

several proposed floor actions in the

Conference proceedings. Among them:



Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New

Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the

General Service Board of Alcoholics

Anonymous meet with representatives of the

two service structures in Mexico (Central

and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if

needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring

to the 1996 Conference recommendations

which would preclude reoccurrence of this

type of conflict in any other

situation/country."



Not considered: "Seccion Mexico has sent

three letters to our General Service

Conference asking the Conference to review

their petitions of grievance, which is their

right under Concept V of World Service. To

fulfill our spiritual responsibility I propose

the following motion: "That this Conference

review and discuss these petitions and

forward a response to Seccion Mexico."



Not considered: "The Conference

recommends that the General Service Board

and its subsidiary boards, AA World

Services Inc and AA Grapevine Inc initiate

no litigation in defense of copyrights and

trademarks, in accordance with Tradition 10

and Warranty 5."



While the 1995 Conference did not vote to

approve lawsuits it did vote to decline to

consider them.



Gary, I've taken the time to respond to your

individual points below and that will be the

end of my participation in the exchange.

Your points are denoted with "(GB)" and my

response to them with "(AS)."



------------------------------------------------

(GB): I don't know where to begin, Arthur.

Calling the members of the man's Home

Group 'accomplices' seems a bit

inflammatory. They are fellow members,

joined in a 12th Step activity. The mail order

business was not engaged in the Big Book

give aways. You can refer to the findings

from the German Court in dismissing the

first complaint, the criminal charge.



(AS): The trustees' 2004 Conference report

states that the involvement of the mail order

business was a documented fact in the

distribution of the book in Russia through

catalogs that the business mailed to Russian

groups.



AABBSG assisted and financially supported

the German member's efforts. His actions

were found to be illegal by a German court

of law and its verdict was sustained on

appeal. An accomplice is someone who helps

somebody do something illegal. Labeling

their actions as being "joined in a 12th Step

activity" fails to distinguish between the

stated nobility of intentions and the de facto

illegitimacy of actions. One can carry AA's

message without breaking the law. And as

noted earlier there was no compelling reason

to publish the illegal book in the first place.



------------------------------------------------

(GB): The 'small but vocal group' you refer

to in Mexico was an entire service structure

with over 2,000 groups, with Districts,

Areas, Delegates and a Conference.



(AS): The 2004 Conference report mentions

a meeting between the German member and a

"small but vocal group" of Mexican

members. It was not a description of the size

of Section Mexico. The German member and

some "accomplices" published "El Libro

Azul" (an illegal Spanish language knock-off

of the Big Book).



------------------------------------------------

(GB): The permission (in Article Two) is

given for the Conference (not AAWS)

to grant the right to publish, and only where

a General Service Structure exists. Central

Mexicana was not a service structure but just

a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries

where a General Service Structure exists, the

United States/Canada Conference will

delegate sole right to publish our

Conference-approved Literature to the

General Service Board of that structure."



(AS): Your legalistic interpretation is

semantically and substantively incorrect.

AAWS and GSO are both part of a "service

structure" or "Conference" (re the service

Manual footnotes for the Original Permanent

Conference Charter). In 1979 the term

"Conference" was defined to consist of

"the Delegates, the Trustees, the General

Service Board, the directors of AAWS and

AA Grapevine and staff members of the

Grapevine and GSO." They are all voting

participants in the "Conference" of the US

and Canada.



Also reference the footnote for the Current

Conference Charter which states "The word

'Conference' as used in paragraph 2 of the

'Current Conference Charter' appears to be

synonymous with 'General Service

Conference' or 'General Service Structure' in

its application to national AA entities outside

of the US/Canada; and, while the 'Charter'

may provide guidance to other GSOs they

are still autonomous, and not bound by its

mandates, except where the law might

require it (e.g. copyright law)."



Each country can autonomously define its

own service structure which does not have to

be a replica of the US/Canada structure.

Section Mexico broke away from Central

Mexico who was recognized as the exclusive

"service structure" for publication licensing.

AAWS legitimately acted in its long-

standing, and well-established, role of

managing copyrights, reprint permissions

and publication licenses for Conference-

approved literature. Central Mexico qualified

as a licensee and a General Service structure.

------------------------------------------------



(GB): Your 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge'

comment concerning profit is definitely not

researched. Before the civil case there was a

criminal case where the German Court found

that there was indeed no profiting going on.



[reference to] http://gsowatch.aamo.info/ger/g8.gif.



In fact, the books have a disclaimer on them

that states that they are free and should not

be bought or sold. Further, the financial

report you are not aware of was given to the

German court, which is part of the reason

they dismissed the criminal charges. There is

no evidence what-so-ever that there was

anything but an altruistic motive in this case.

As is a tradition in this country, guilt must be

proved, not innocence.



(AS): My comment was "Perhaps the

acceptance of so-called '7th Traditions



contributions' still means that the books were

given away free (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

but I'll take that with a bit of skepticism."

The word "profit" was not mentioned. The

outside cover of the illegal publication states

that it is for free and its inside cover states

that AABBSG will accept "7th Tradition

donations." That's what I was commenting

on. I made no mention of criminal charges. In

terms of the German court, it might be far

more instructive to dwell on what they did do

rather than on what they didn't do. The

German member's guilt was proven in that

court and upheld on appeal.

------------------------------------------------



(GB): You mentioned that the German

member did not respond to the offer to forego

reimbursement, etc. What you didn't mention

was that there were many stipulations for

that to take effect, not just the one you

mentioned. One of the other stipulations was

to reveal the names of all members of the

AABBSG (his Home Group), breaking the

anonymity of all at a public level. Of course

he refused, and started paying.



I would like to remind everyone that all the

Big Books that were printed in Germany and

Mexico were from the First or Second

Editions, which are both in the Public

Domain.



(AS): The Steps, Traditions and Concepts

are not conveniences to take refuge behind to

avoid the consequences of breaking the law.

According to the German member, the

translators had it wrong, two Boards had it

wrong, AAWS had it wrong and several

GSOs had it wrong but he had it right. I'd

suggest that the numbers do not work

convincingly in his favor.



As mentioned earlier, the Big Book copyright

has lapsed only in the US. It is still valid

outside the US by international treaty

agreements. It is not in the public domain of

the signatory countries nor is anyone legally

permitted to print the book in the US and

ship it overseas to a signatory country. As

difficult as may be for some to acknowledge,

AA members are obligated to comply with

law the same as everyone else on this planet

otherwise consequences ensue that are not

waived based on AA membership.

------------------------------------------------



(GB): I suspect that is enough for now. I

would like to suggest that anyone even

slightly concerned about these issues read

Concept XII, Warranty 5. In my Service

Manual, it suggests that we not sue anyone,

at any time, for any reason. Further, it says,

"Some deviators have suffered rather severe

personal criticism from individual AA

members, and this is to be deplored." This

was written by Bill W. Every piece of

evidence points that this man and his group

were carrying the AA message as best they

could. While one may disagree with their

methods, the hateful attacks seem

inappropriate. Please reread Warranty 5.



(AS): As stated earlier the Concepts are not

laws or commandments and matters change

over time (not to everyone's satisfaction).

Your "Some deviators" citation would be

more instructive by including the sentences

that follow it:



"Some deviators have suffered rather severe

personal criticism from individual A.A.

members, and this is to be deplored.

However this is no reason for us to stop

reminding all concerned of the undesirability

of breaking A.A.'s Traditions before the

entire public. It can be said in all fairness

that the difficulties of those who contravene

the Traditions are chiefly troubles of their

own making."



I'd suggest that the German member's

troubles were of his own making and that the

evidence demonstrated that he was breaking

the law. He certainly had a role in fomenting

public controversy in several countries and

doing harm to AA as a whole with rather

inflammatory content and commentary over

the internet. Claims of "carrying AA's

message as best they could" seem to fall

more into the category of "alibi" rather than

exoneration.



The AA service entities that brought the

lawsuit have also had their staff members

subjected to broad-brush severe personal

criticism whether or not the staff member had

any role at all in the lawsuit. Claiming that

they engaged in "hateful attacks" is neither

demonstrated nor warranted. It falls into the

same hyperbole of claiming that the German

translators were motivated by "anti-spiritual

resentments." It's far more a product of

negative imagination rather than objective

investigation. The critics of the German law

suit seem to have little tolerance and much

scorn of an opposing viewpoint.



AA's message can be carried without

breaking the law. It's that simple.



Finally, the only hateful attacks I've

witnessed (and there is audit trail archive of

it going back for years) have emanated from

the web site you use as a reference.



You are part of that group. Over the past

several years:



Has that group done any harm to AA as a

whole by continually claiming that the AA

service entities that brought the lawsuit did

so as a hateful attack rather than on the

reasons they explained to the General Service

Conferences?



Has that group done any harm to AA as a

whole where, to this day, just about any

action of the part of those service entities is

still subject to international public ridicule

and condemnation (over the world-wide

internet)?



Has that group engaged in public controversy

by inciting AA members and groups to take

the punitive action of withholding donations

to GSO based on a single issue and despite

all the other good service works done by

GSO?



Has that group done harm to AA as a whole

in its pillory of Bill W's authorship role in the

Big Book or in its public broadcast of the

embarrassment concerning his named

beneficiaries in his last will and testament?



Is there one set of Traditions and Concepts

that apply to the Board, AAWS and GSO

but a different set that apply to AA members

using the internet (an international public

forum) often to the extreme of engaging in

slander and revisionist history?



Arthur


0 -1 0 0
4151 Bill Lash
I''ve Never Quit Being Active (1968), Clarence S. I''ve Never Quit Being Active (1968), Clarence S. 3/3/2007 7:03:00 AM


I've Never Quit Being Active

by Clarence Snyder

A.A. Grapevine, November 1999



On February 11, 1938, I had my last drink. I

was a chronic alky, and through a long, involved

miracle, I met my sponsor, Dr. Bob, one of our

co-founders. He put me in Akron City Hospital,

where I met the alkies who had preceded me in

the Fellowship.



Fifteen months later, I organized the Cleveland,

Ohio AA group. The activity in the Cleveland

area was hectic. I spent practically all my

time obtaining and following up on publicity

for AA, lining up cooperation with civic and

church groups, hospitals, and courts, and

helping new groups to start.



So what do I do now, thirty years later? I

have never quit being active, although my

position in the Fellowship has modified over

the years. I attend an average of two meetings

per week, when I am home. I am also asked to

speak at various groups. In addition, I am

invited to take part in numerous group

anniversary programs and AA roundups around

the country (and sometimes out of the country).

Many people call upon me for counsel and advice

on both personal and group problems. I have an

extensive correspondence, since I have made

so many friends in AA from coast to coast. Once

in a while, I sponsor someone. Cases where

about everything has been tried, by everyone

else, often wind up in my hands.



I have not found the program to be difficult,

and I maintain that if it does seem difficult

for anyone, he is not doing it "right."

Certainly, when I came to this Fellowship,

I was in no position or condition to handle

anything difficult! I kept things simple. But

I must add that when I first began I was

well sponsored.



I took measures now summarized in the first

nine Steps of the program: admittance of need

(the First Step), surrender (Second through

Seventh), and restitution (Eighth and Ninth).

Having done this, I no longer had a drinking

problem, since it had been turned over to a

Higher Power. Now I had - and still have -

a living problem. But that is taken care of

by the practice of Steps Ten, Eleven, and

Twelve. So I don't have to be concerned

about anything but a simple three-step program,

which with practice has become habitual.



Step Ten enables me to check on myself and

my activities of the day. I have found that

most things disturbing me are little things,

but still the very things which, if not dealt

with, can pile up and eventually overwhelm me.

My daily checkup covers good deeds as well

as questionable ones; often, I find I can

commend myself in some areas, while in

others I owe apologies.



Step Eleven is done after my daily inventory.

I usually need the peace resulting from prayer

and meditation, and I do receive guidance

for my life and actions.



Step Twelve, to me, does involve not only

carrying the message, but extending AA

principles into all phases of my daily life.



I learned long ago that this is a life-

changing program, but that, after the change

occurs, it is necessary for me to go on

making the effort to improve myself mentally,

morally, and spiritually.



This is my simple program, and I recommend

it to anyone who wants a good life and is

willing to do his share of helping.



C.H.S., St. Petersburg, Florida


0 -1 0 0
4152 Bob McK.
RE: Percentage women in AA worldwide? Percentage women in AA worldwide? 3/3/2007 8:01:00 AM


35% at last count. This and other AA information

is available on AA's website: aa.org as well

is in a printed pamphlet (P-48) called the

Membership Survey:



http://aa.org/en_pdfs/p-48_04survey.pdf



Why only 35%? Shouldn't it be 50%. That's what

I thought. But about 10 years ago I was standing

in a buffet line next to John Chappel, a Reno,

NV psychiatrist and one of our Class A Trustees.

We had just reviewed the membership survey.



John said that it's a funny thing. As best as

medical science knows from autopsies, etc.,

no more than 20-25% of alcoholics are women.

And yet we have a much higher percentage in

AA.



John surmised that this may be because these

two men developed a program that involves

"sharing your feelings" and this was something

women do better than men.



I do not know how accurate the medical science

number is and our statistic is definitely subject

to question, but this was an interesting

interaction that stuck with me.


0 -1 0 0
4153 jblair101
Irish bishops on alcoholism in Ireland Irish bishops on alcoholism in Ireland 3/3/2007 6:58:00 PM


For those interested about alcoholism in Ireland, I suggest viewing



"Reduce alcohol consumption hurting the family, nation, Irish bishops

urge" at

http://www.catholic.org/printer_friendly.php?id=23061&section=Cathcom

and

"Text of the Irish bishops' pastoral letter `Alcohol: The Challenge of

Moderation'" at

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=23062



john blair


0 -1 0 0
4154 Mitchell K.
Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) 3/3/2007 8:54:00 PM


Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about

LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I

didn't however see anyone mention that the author of

the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in

Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get

a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living

author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that

book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so

interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may

be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of

codified principles exist that take precedence over

the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of

> state and national laws and treaties having the

effect of law"



Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book

or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt

here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of

the actual document bearing Wayne's signature.



Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a

selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless

one gets caught.







> To Gary B and Lee N -

> this is a very long reply

>

> The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are

> historic AA milestones whether or not they

> are viewed as infamous. Their history should

> be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both

> supporters and critics. Many AA members

> have staked out a position, some with

> reasoned argument and others with vitriol.

>

> The Traditions and Concepts are often cited

> as inviolable and near scriptural

> commandments that predetermine what the

> conduct of those who brought the lawsuit

> should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely

> directed at the German member who was

> found guilty of breaking the law. He is

> typically portrayed as a noble victim

> absolved of his legal infractions because he

> wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who

> stopped him from breaking the law are

> typically portrayed as villains having "hateful

> intentions."

>

> While it may be hard for some AA members

> to swallow, bodies of codified principles

> exist that take precedence over the Steps,

> Traditions and Concepts. They consist of

> state and national laws and treaties having

> the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor

> Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step

> activities" provide a refuge of extralegal

> privilege to evade the law and the resulting

> consequences of its infraction.

>

> When AA members are involved in 12th Step

> calls, it does not grant them extralegal

> privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore

> red lights on the way to carry AA's message.

> Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with

> a Big Book translation, it does not endow

> them with extralegal privilege to print their

>

> own preferred version in violation of

> copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th

> Step activity."

>

> Events leading up to the German lawsuit

> were premised on claims that the translation

> of the German Big Book lacked words

> denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted

> words denoting "psychological" and

> "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The

> website that supported the German member

> carried the following statements:

>

> ----------

> "A scientific research revaled [sic]

> differences between BBSG and German GSO

> versions of the big book.

>

> BBSG translated the multilith manuscript,

> because we were sure there were no

> restrictions by any copyright protection on it.

> German GSO sold a translation of 1983

> based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this

> had many mistakes. For example: The 11

> chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108

> times in the multilith manuscript and 106

> times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of

> 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight

> times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it

> was mostly replaced by "seelisch --

> psychological" and/or by "geistig --

> intellectual". This, among other faults,

> diluted the spiritual foundations of our

> recovery program and resulted in an

> extremely high relapse rate of more than

> 95% among German AA members. We felt

> obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation

> of [sic] has the correct German word

> "spirituell". There is more background

> information available at [.]"

> ----------

>

> The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and

> unsubstantiated (but often repeated these

> days in AA as part of various agendas). That

> piece of fiction stems from the

> misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989

> GSO report on preceding AA membership

> surveys.

>

> Attempting to link bogus Big Book

> translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus

> 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is

> beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators

> were motivated by "anti-spiritual

> resentments" illustrates the disparaging

> hyperbole that has permeated and polluted

> commentary on the matter from its onset.

>

> The BBSG research was anything but

> "scientific." In their web site statement

> the German word "giestig" was defined to

> only mean "intellectual." It has several

> meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The

> word "seelisch" (derived from the German

> word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only

> mean "psychological" when it too has several

> meanings one of which is also "spiritual."

> The German member asserted that the word

> "spirituell" should have been used to denote

> the English word "spiritual." That's how the

> whole episode started. It was all a matter of

> semantic preference.

>

> Two Word documents were available that

> purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in

> the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book

> translations. After personally examining both

> of them line by line it was plainly evident

> that claims of translation shortcomings were

> disingenuous and far more delusional than

> definitive.

>

> The Big Book copyright has expired only in

> the US and is still in force outside the US

> through international treaty agreements.

>

> In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on

> Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized

> that a public lawsuit is a public controversy,

> something in which our Tradition says we

> may not engage." His statement was in

> reference to a matter in the early 1950s of

> whether AA should petition Congress for

> congressional incorporation of the name

> "Alcoholics Anonymous."

>

> The Conference decision was "no" but

> matters changed over time and the name

> "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were

> legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's

> statement about lawsuits is not frozen in

> perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached

> the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and

> Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His

> Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early

> 1950s and his Concepts essays from the

> early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate

> such things as the world-wide internet,

> desk-top publishing, digitization and the

> international explosion of treaties and laws

> protecting intellectual property rights.

>

> From the material I've collected over the past

> years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack

> of balance and civil discussion in presenting

> both sides of the issue. The greatest part of

> the internet data consists of rather harsh

> accusations against the Board, AAWS and

> GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy

> out of the episode or having little better to do

> than seek out errant AA members to punish

> them.

>

> Something that is not well known in regard to

> lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995

> Conferences. The 1993 case involved the

> circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped

> and so were some recommendations of a

> special ad hoc committee formed the prior

> year to address the matter. The ad hoc

>

> committee's recommendation that "The

> Conference find that the initiation of

> litigation involving trademarks and service

> marks is a violation of Warranty Five"

> wound up as "not considered" in the

> Conference proceedings.

>

> The 1995 Conference concerned both the

> situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit.

> The 1995 Conference voted not to consider

> several proposed floor actions in the

> Conference proceedings. Among them:

>

> Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New

> Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the

> General Service Board of Alcoholics

> Anonymous meet with representatives of the

> two service structures in Mexico (Central

> and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if

> needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring

> to the 1996 Conference recommendations

> which would preclude reoccurrence of this

> type of conflict in any other

> situation/country."

>

>

=== message truncated ===


0 -1 0 0
4155 theresa leisinger
How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? 3/5/2007 11:48:00 AM


I love the Grapevine digital archives site.

Fascinating and inspiring.I was there the

other day,looking up some old Tiebout articles

I had heard about.



Any idea what search words might help me turn

up some Priscilla P. articles? I tried the

other day, no luck.



Maybe I'll just have to read them all, one at

a time!


0 -1 0 0
4157 Angela Corelis
Big Book price in Mexico Big Book price in Mexico 3/4/2007 10:07:00 PM


Just returned from quarterly Nayarit II District

Meeting, held here in Puerto Vallarta.



At the literature table, GSO publication



Big Book ................... 18 pesos.. about 1.60 U$

Pocket Big Book..........24 p....about 2.30U$

Twelve Steps...............12 p.....about 1.15 U$

12X12..........................34p .....about 3.20 U$



For comparison a cup of coffee in Mexican..

not tourist areas is about 10 p..U$ 0.95



(only have soft bound in Mexico...that I know of)



I do not consider that expensive for AA literature.



As rule other books are expensive in Mexico,

15-30 US$ from the days when most wood pulp

for paper was imported because of a 20 year

moritorium on logging...and of course when

that was lifted, costs remained high.


0 -1 0 0
4158 Corey Franks
Re: How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? 3/7/2007 11:02:00 AM


HI.. I did a 13 month Intership with Bill P.

at Hazelden a few years ago and found Priscilla

P in a lot of Articles i had read in the

Grapevines. Bill P. had me read from the first

one out there who was in the very early days

until way into the laters days.



She had great influence in AA circles in the

beginnings and she was very right on with her

articles and participation. Quite the outstanding

person!



Look her up in the earliest of the Grapevines.



Thx! Corey F.


0 -1 0 0
4159 Sally Brown
Re: How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? 3/6/2007 11:53:00 PM


Dave and I have never tried searching for any

of Priscilla P's articles, whether in the

Grapevine or Vogue Magazine, where she was

art editor for decades. In fact, we've not

seen any example of her written work except

a love note or two. Odd, when I think of it,

considering she was an English major in college,

and certainly knew her way around words. But

her favored mode of expression was art -

drawing and painting.



Have you tried just her initials, P.P.? It's

also possible she never did sign what she

wrote.



Do let me know if you come across anything.

Good luck!



Shalom - Sally



Rev Sally Brown, coauthor

A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:

The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain

United Church of Christ



www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Road, 309

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

Email: rev.sally@att.net


0 -1 0 0
4160 TBaerMojo@aol.com
Re: "came to scoff" quote "came to scoff" quote 3/7/2007 10:06:00 AM


"The Deserted Village" is often quoted here

by fans of Auburn University who cite the

phrase "lovelist village of the plain" as a

tribute to their school. Of course, most have

not read the poem or they would realize that

it is about the glory that used to be and is

now gone.



But, what the heck, it's a land grant university.



Thanks for the info on the origin of the last

sentence in Silkworth's opinion that without

spiritual help drunks are doomed.



Tim



-----Original Message-----

From: awn4@columbia.edu

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 7:54 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "came to scoff" quote



From Dr. Silkworth's letter, it is quoted from

Oliver Goldsmith, "The Deserted Village," with

an echo in the story in "Tom Sawyer" about

whitewashing the fence.



- - - -



Hey folks,



Maybe you all knew this already, but I was

thrilled this morning to stumble across the

origin of the last line of Dr. Silkworth's

letter on page xxxii in The Doctor's Opinion.



The sentence reads, "I earnestly advise every

alcoholic to read this book through, and though

perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray."



I've begun reading "Tom Sawyer" to my third-grade

daughter in the morning before the school bus

arrives. Today we read the famous second chapter

where Tom tricks the boys in the neighborhood to

pay him for the privilege of whitewashing the

fence for him. Mark Twain writes, "...they came

to jeer but remained to whitewash."



The footnote then refers us to "The Deserted

Village," a poem written in 1770 by Oliver

Goldsmith. Lines 177-180 read, "At church,

with meek and unaffected grace,/His looks

adorned the venerable place;/Truth from his

lips prevailed the double sway,/And fools,

who came to scoff, remained to pray."



Here's Wikipedia on Goldsmith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Goldsmith



And here's the poem: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~mgamer/Etexts/goldsmith



Did I find something new? New to me, at any

rate. I love The Doctor's Opinion.



Sasha



************

Sasha N. in Amherst


0 -1 0 0
4161 Lee Nickerson
Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) 3/7/2007 2:01:00 PM


To me, when all of this was happening, it was

not the details that seemed to matter to the

minority who opposed the public controversy

in Mexico and Germany; it was the aggresive

chauvinistic attitude of AAWS and its then

President and GSO manager, George D. that upset

us.



We never had any defense against the legal

arguments that were tossed around but we were

united in the fact that the Traditions,

Concepts, and the clear intentions of our

founders were being violated with impunity and

spiritual arrogance.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:

>

> Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about

> LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I

> didn't however see anyone mention that the author of

> the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in

> Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get

> a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living

> author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that

> book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so

> interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may

> be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of

> codified principles exist that take precedence over

> the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of

> > state and national laws and treaties having the

> effect of law"

>

> Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book

> or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt

> here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of

> the actual document bearing Wayne's signature.

>

> Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a

> selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless

> one gets caught.

>

>

>

> > To Gary B and Lee N -

> > this is a very long reply

> >

> > The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are

> > historic AA milestones whether or not they

> > are viewed as infamous. Their history should

> > be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both

> > supporters and critics. Many AA members

> > have staked out a position, some with

> > reasoned argument and others with vitriol.

> >

> > The Traditions and Concepts are often cited

> > as inviolable and near scriptural

> > commandments that predetermine what the

> > conduct of those who brought the lawsuit

> > should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely

> > directed at the German member who was

> > found guilty of breaking the law. He is

> > typically portrayed as a noble victim

> > absolved of his legal infractions because he

> > wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who

> > stopped him from breaking the law are

> > typically portrayed as villains having "hateful

> > intentions."

> >

> > While it may be hard for some AA members

> > to swallow, bodies of codified principles

> > exist that take precedence over the Steps,

> > Traditions and Concepts. They consist of

> > state and national laws and treaties having

> > the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor

> > Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step

> > activities" provide a refuge of extralegal

> > privilege to evade the law and the resulting

> > consequences of its infraction.

> >

> > When AA members are involved in 12th Step

> > calls, it does not grant them extralegal

> > privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore

> > red lights on the way to carry AA's message.

> > Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with

> > a Big Book translation, it does not endow

> > them with extralegal privilege to print their

> >

> > own preferred version in violation of

> > copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th

> > Step activity."

> >

> > Events leading up to the German lawsuit

> > were premised on claims that the translation

> > of the German Big Book lacked words

> > denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted

> > words denoting "psychological" and

> > "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The

> > website that supported the German member

> > carried the following statements:

> >

> > ----------

> > "A scientific research revaled [sic]

> > differences between BBSG and German GSO

> > versions of the big book.

> >

> > BBSG translated the multilith manuscript,

> > because we were sure there were no

> > restrictions by any copyright protection on it.

> > German GSO sold a translation of 1983

> > based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this

> > had many mistakes. For example: The 11

> > chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108

> > times in the multilith manuscript and 106

> > times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of

> > 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight

> > times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it

> > was mostly replaced by "seelisch --

> > psychological" and/or by "geistig --

> > intellectual". This, among other faults,

> > diluted the spiritual foundations of our

> > recovery program and resulted in an

> > extremely high relapse rate of more than

> > 95% among German AA members. We felt

> > obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation

> > of [sic] has the correct German word

> > "spirituell". There is more background

> > information available at [.]"

> > ----------

> >

> > The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and

> > unsubstantiated (but often repeated these

> > days in AA as part of various agendas). That

> > piece of fiction stems from the

> > misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989

> > GSO report on preceding AA membership

> > surveys.

> >

> > Attempting to link bogus Big Book

> > translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus

> > 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is

> > beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators

> > were motivated by "anti-spiritual

> > resentments" illustrates the disparaging

> > hyperbole that has permeated and polluted

> > commentary on the matter from its onset.

> >

> > The BBSG research was anything but

> > "scientific." In their web site statement

> > the German word "giestig" was defined to

> > only mean "intellectual." It has several

> > meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The

> > word "seelisch" (derived from the German

> > word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only

> > mean "psychological" when it too has several

> > meanings one of which is also "spiritual."

> > The German member asserted that the word

> > "spirituell" should have been used to denote

> > the English word "spiritual." That's how the

> > whole episode started. It was all a matter of

> > semantic preference.

> >

> > Two Word documents were available that

> > purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in

> > the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book

> > translations. After personally examining both

> > of them line by line it was plainly evident

> > that claims of translation shortcomings were

> > disingenuous and far more delusional than

> > definitive.

> >

> > The Big Book copyright has expired only in

> > the US and is still in force outside the US

> > through international treaty agreements.

> >

> > In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on

> > Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized

> > that a public lawsuit is a public controversy,

> > something in which our Tradition says we

> > may not engage." His statement was in

> > reference to a matter in the early 1950s of

> > whether AA should petition Congress for

> > congressional incorporation of the name

> > "Alcoholics Anonymous."

> >

> > The Conference decision was "no" but

> > matters changed over time and the name

> > "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were

> > legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's

> > statement about lawsuits is not frozen in

> > perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached

> > the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and

> > Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His

> > Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early

> > 1950s and his Concepts essays from the

> > early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate

> > such things as the world-wide internet,

> > desk-top publishing, digitization and the

> > international explosion of treaties and laws

> > protecting intellectual property rights.

> >

> > From the material I've collected over the past

> > years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack

> > of balance and civil discussion in presenting

> > both sides of the issue. The greatest part of

> > the internet data consists of rather harsh

> > accusations against the Board, AAWS and

> > GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy

> > out of the episode or having little better to do

> > than seek out errant AA members to punish

> > them.

> >

> > Something that is not well known in regard to

> > lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995

> > Conferences. The 1993 case involved the

> > circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped

> > and so were some recommendations of a

> > special ad hoc committee formed the prior

> > year to address the matter. The ad hoc

> >

> > committee's recommendation that "The

> > Conference find that the initiation of

> > litigation involving trademarks and service

> > marks is a violation of Warranty Five"

> > wound up as "not considered" in the

> > Conference proceedings.

> >

> > The 1995 Conference concerned both the

> > situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit.

> > The 1995 Conference voted not to consider

> > several proposed floor actions in the

> > Conference proceedings. Among them:

> >

> > Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New

> > Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the

> > General Service Board of Alcoholics

> > Anonymous meet with representatives of the

> > two service structures in Mexico (Central

> > and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if

> > needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring

> > to the 1996 Conference recommendations

> > which would preclude reoccurrence of this

> > type of conflict in any other

> > situation/country."

> >

> >

> === message truncated ===

>


0 -1 0 0
4162 Glenn Chesnut
The start of AA in Ireland from the Furrow (Nov. 1953) The start of AA in Ireland from the Furrow (Nov. 1953) 3/7/2007 4:06:00 PM


From: JOHN e REID <jre33756@bigpond.net.au>

(jre33756 at bigpond.net.au)



Subject: The start of AA in Ireland

(article from The Furrow, November 1953)



"Twenty-nine years ago it was carried to

Australia by a travelling American". (Further

comment by John R- The genesis of AA came to

Australia via the Big Book being sent to Dr.

Sylvester Minogue in 1942.)



"Three years later, it came indirectly from

Australia to Ireland, this time by a priest.

This priest was on holiday in Dublin in

September 1946 and was interviewed by an

evening paper on the subject of a Boy’s Town

with which he was connected in Australia. In

the course of his talk he commented at length

on the success that A.A. was having in Sydney

and expressed the hope that Dublin would do

well to take it up. This interview was read

by a member of the Philadelphia group, an

Irishman who had gone to live in the States,

who was over here on holiday. Spurred on by

his wife, he determined to start a group in

Dublin, with the help of a doctor and by

advertising, he managed to scrape together a

small number of men willing to make the

experiment. Their first public meeting was

held in The Country Shop on November25th.;

and here on that night the first A.A. group

in Europe was formed."





THE FURROW, NOVEMBER, 1953

(Details amended to 1972)



ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

A CATHOLIC MEMBERS APPRECIATION



"I HEAR the A.A. want to start a group here.

Do you know anything about these fellows?" I

was shown this part of a letter from one

country priest to another not so long ago.

I am an alcoholic myself and a member of A.A.

for twenty-four years. My own success in the

adventure of sobriety is bound up with the

success of A.A. in Ireland. The object of this

article is to tell something about "these

fellows": what we are, what we try to do and

what we have so far achieved. For we have found

a knowledge and understanding of A.A. has made

us friends and gained us helpers.



Up to comparatively recently, Society has

placed all drunks in the same category -

weak-willed, callous, helpless and unhelpable,

intentional sinners, skeletons whose greatest

offence is that they will not remain snugly

in their family cupboards. Yet nearly everyone

knows at least one person whose drinking has

apparently almost without warning become

incomprehensible. Men with good homes, money,

good business or jobs, good reputations, healthy,

in no way unhappy, suddenly go off the rails.

Normal, seemingly, when not drinking, their

characters undergo a complete change once they

start on alcohol. Their former occasional

"night-outs" develop swiftly into bouts, the

bouts come closer and closer together. In many

cases they are seldom completely sober. Their

drinking is followed by periods of intense

remorse, by sincere though short lived attempts

to stay off liquor. Their relatives are in

turn startled, puzzled, anxious to help,

resentful, contemptuous, enraged. They

themselves are at first sure they can find

a way of retaining control "next time," then

frightened when they fail repeatedly, then

hopeless. Their complete ignorance of what

has happened to them, what is still happened

to them, what is still happening to them, makes

it impossible for them to explain to, and gain

the understanding sympathy of, those they love

and respect. Little by little they cut

themselves off from their world; they live in

a state of desperate loneliness and finally

become outcasts. These are the persons sometimes

called the Problem Drinkers. They are, in fact,

alcoholics or compulsive drinkers, suffering

from a physical allergy to alcohol combined with

a mental obsession to take more once they start

to drink: drinkers whose compulsion to drink

is a sign of disease. There are few alcoholics

who have recovered who would deny that this

disease is really spiritual.



A.A. is a loose knit society of men and women

alcoholics who have banded together in groups

all over the world to share their experience,

strength and hope with each other, that they may

solve their common problem and help others to

recover from alcoholism. There are at the time

of writing over 14,000 such groups, with a

total membership of about 500,000 spread all

over the world. The only requirement for

membership is a sincere desire to stop drinking.

A.A. is not allied with any particular religion,

creed or denomination. It has nothing to do with

politics, other organizations or any institution.

A.A. simply minds its own business…to stay

sober and help other alcoholics to achieve

sobriety. Alcoholism is not a purely Catholic,

Protestant or Jewish disease; it is not the

exclusive illness of either the millionaire or

the down-and-out. Alcoholism strikes at all

creeds, class and income—grades impartially.

A.A.’s success has largely derived from its

refusal to recognize any difference between

one alcoholic and another. They are all sick

persons, requiring A.A. ‘s help. A.A. does not

usurp the place of Church or Medicine. The

alcoholic who joins in poor physical condition

is strongly advised to consult his doctor.

The alcoholic’s religion, or lack of it, is

his own affair. In general, it has been our

experience that a good A.A. member becomes a

better member of his Church. But our primary

object is to achieve sobriety. From that

sobriety the other things will stem; without

it, they are impossible. A.A. is not concerned

with money. It has nothing to sell and none

of its members are paid for A.A. work. There

are no positions of authority to be obtained;

each member is on exactly the same footing. Its

policy of anonymity does away with the danger

of membership being used as a means of obtaining

personal kudos. Thus the three most ordinary

occasions of disunity and disruption are

guarded against. Each group is autonomous.

Its own members care for the necessary money to

meet expenses of rent, printing and incidentals.

Donations from outside sources are politely

refused. Its officers are elected in rotation.

Its policy of anonymity was first chosen as a

worldly safeguard for its members; the spiritual

value of anonymity has become more apparent

since. But while personal anonymity is required,

A.A. is only too glad of any publicity to its

aims and being.



It came into existence thirty six years ago in

America through a chance meeting between a New

York stockbroker named Bill (in A.A. all members

go by their first names), and an Akron doctor,

Bob. Bill had already managed to keep sober for

six months as the result of following out a

few principles of living largely based on the

Oxford Groups "Absolutes." He had, however,

just had the bad end of a business deal and came

to realize that to preserve his own sobriety

he must make contact with another alcoholic and

help him to achieve sobriety as well. Both of

these men had long and dreadful histories of

drink; but from that first meeting, they both

remained sober. Bob died twenty-two years ago,

but Bill lived till 1971, a total abstainer

for over 36 years, after he had been given up

as a hopeless and unhelpable drunk. The society

they started that day grew slowly and shakily;

it took over four years to muster the first

hundred members. Since then it has grown in

increasing tempo to its present size. In

numbers it is still mainly American, United

States and Canada. Twenty-nine years ago it

was carried to Australia by a travelling

American. Three years later, it came indirectly

from Australia to Ireland, this time by a

priest.





This priest was on holiday in Dublin in September

1946 and was interviewed by an evening paper

on the subject of a Boy’s Town with which he

was connected in Australia. In the course of

his talk he commented at length on the success

that A.A. was having in Sydney and expressed the

hope that Dublin would do well to take it up.

This interview was read by a member of the

Philadelphia group, an Irishman who had gone

to live in the States, who was over here on

holiday. Spurred on by his wife, he determined

to start a group in Dublin, with the help of

a doctor and by advertising, he managed to

scrape together a small number of men willing

to make the experiment. Their first public

meeting was held in The Country Shop on

November 25th.; and here on that night the

first A.A. group in Europe was formed. As

in America, the start was slow and uphill.

Today it is firmly established in Dublin

(35 Groups ); there are many large groups

in Belfast; there are several groups in

Limerick, Cork and Galway, and smaller ones

elsewhere. Public meetings are held every

Monday night, still in The Country Shop, where

attendance’s range from 50 upwards to 100. The

maximum attendance was at a meeting held in

the Mansion House when over 400 came along

to listen to the Co-Founder of the Society,

Bill. At a conservative estimate, there are

at least 2000 members in Ireland and an

estimated 8,000 in England, Scotland and

Wales. A good many others, though partially

convinced, are not yet ready to make, and

act on, the necessary admission that they

are beaten by drink. A world estimate is that

about 70% of those who join and give the A.A.

program a fair trial recover, though a great

many of these suffer one or more relapses

before they finally settle down. A short time

ago, I was asked at a clerical meeting to

explain to them why an alcoholic went on

drinking long after it was evident that he

was incapable of exercising control. I find

it almost impossible to do so. I can only

say that for a very long period of my own

thirty years drinking I honestly believed I

could, someday and somehow, find a way of

drinking all I wanted without losing control.

Life without drink seemed to me to be an

unnatural and quite impossible way of

existence. Later I became drearily hopeless

and fatalistic about it. Though I still

continued to make attempts to pull up, I felt

even at the time that they were quite useless.

I felt it would start again sometime, so what

was the use of trying too hard? The truth is

that we don’t know why we drink; but when we

tell the truth, we are not believed. Strength

of will and sincerity of purpose do not enter

into it. I have entered my name for a Retreat

to find help in Quitting drink, yet gone to

that retreat with a bottle of gin in my bag,

which I drank between the first exercise and

going to sleep. After a month’s voluntary

treatment in a private home, I felt convinced

I had mastered drink; and been drinking again

within a few hours. Drink makes us mentally

unbalanced and we cannot be honest even with

ourselves for long at a time.



My own case history may be cited as typical

of an A.A. member, though space will mercifully

prelude any but the minimum necessary details.

I am seventy-five years of age, single and come

from a good class Catholic family. My home life

was happy and I went to a Catholic College in

England. Later I entered the profession I wanted

to join; I was very happy in it, I got on well.

I was good at games; I was considered good at

work, above the average of my rank in the

British Army. I had a promising future to look

forward to, I had nothing from which to escape.

There was no previous history of drink in my

family. I can see no reason why I should have

become an alcoholic, yet almost from the start

I drank like an alcoholic. At first I had some

sort of control over myself as to when I drank.

If circumstances seemed to indicate the need

for it, I cut out drinking without much effort

and with no feeling of self sacrifice. But

even in those first years if I drank at all

I went on for the rest of the night. Soon I

was losing even that control. I began to drink

at the wrong times, in the wrong places and

before the wrong people. Good luck and good

friends covered up for me for many years, but

finally life caught up on me and I was retired

on retired pay, branded as not to be re-employed.

This virtual dismissal made very little

impression on me. I still had enough money

for drink and I had a home to live in. Six

more years were to pass before the climax

came. I had been inflicting every kind of

unhappiness not only on myself but on my

parents, not the least for the latter being

my complete indifference to my religious

duties. In April 1947 they ordered me out

of the house and the family and their lives.

By now I had added drugs to alcohol. My routine

had become one of the drugs in the morning to

revive me, drink all day and another drug at

night to give me sleep. My parents’ "revolt"

opened my eyes for the first time to where I

had descended. It proved to be my own gutter.

Fear for my security and at the prospect of

becoming one of the legion of the homeless

lost ( with the next stop almost certainly

a Night Shelter ), at last made me genuinely

willing in my own interest to do anything I

could to stop drinking ("Give me back my

Legions".). The trouble was that I could think

of nothing useful. Doctors, homes, hospitals,

promises, all had proved in vain. Then my memory

went back to that interview I had read nine

months before, about A.A. The Grace of God must

have put it into my heart to go to a meeting

that night, and I managed to strike a one-sided

bargain with my parents that if A.A. could do

some good I might stay at my parents on probation.

I arrived at that meeting, more than half-drunk,

shaking from drugs and nerves; not too good a

prospect, even for A.A. By the goodness of God

and the help He has sent me through A.A. I have

not had another drink since then.



There is no set blueprint of recovery in A.A.

Each member succeeds in his own way and time

and at his own pace. So what I write must be

taken as my own experience only. For me, recovery

came from Knowledge, Decision, Group or social

therapy, a return to Realism and the program

of the Twelve Steps. All of these together for

me make up the A.A. way of life. And I attacked

my recovery problem in just that order, which

seems to me to be entirely logical. Without

Knowledge, I could not come to any decision

that would stand up for long. Without Decision

to recover, group therapy would be a waste

of time. Without Realism I should have been

continuing my old pattern of running away into

dreamland from the inescapable facts of life.

And while all these things were essential to

me to stop drinking, I had to bring another

factor into play, the Twelve Steps, to learn

not only how to remain abstinent but to be

happy in remaining so.



That Knowledge was elementary, though new to

me. Alcoholism is a sort of disease acquired

by two or three percent of the world’s drinkers.

The disease in simplifying language is the

disease of not being able to drink in

moderation. It is the first drink the

alcoholic takes that sets his disease in

active virulence, not the total quantity

consumed. Alcoholism cannot be completely

eliminated once it gains a footing. No matter

how long I might remain abstinent at a time,

I would never be able to control my drinking

if I started again. But if I could find a way

of not taking a first drink, I could stay

sober and normal.



The decision I had to take was to give up

drinking for good. I had to face the unpalatable

fact that I must make abstinence my own first

and most vital aim. As for the group therapy,

I was prepared to accept that the older members

had had to make themselves essential to their

groups and the groups essential to themselves.

If I was going to avail myself of the same

means that they had found necessary and

successful, it followed that I must attempt

what they did. Group therapy to me does not

merely mean coming together at stated times

for formal meetings. These meetings are

important for many reasons and as the visible

sign of coherence. The equally valuable, though

invisible, sign is keeping the closest possible

touch with the members of the group even when

they are not in actual physical contact. That

can be done by constantly thinking about the

group, working for it, praying for it;

keeping it in mind as much as possible.



Reality consisted in recognizing that my

alcoholic life must be cut down to a size I

could hope to deal with. My disposition was

such that if I continued to think of abstinence

in terms of months or years, I would be pretty

certain that nothing would be done. So I adopted

the A.A. suggestion of living my life in periods

of twenty-four hours at a time. Today, the

only day in reality that I ever have at my

disposal. From the beginning, I slowly advanced

to being content to accomplish only what of

the rest of my life I could fit into Today.

That again required further realism to

determine which things were of the most

immediate importance to be done Today. But

my primary reality will always remain

concentrated on not taking one single drink

Today.



Finally, the program of recovery, contained

in the following Twelve Steps:



1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol --

that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a power greater than

ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our

lives over to the care of God as we understood

Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory

of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another

human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all

these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed

and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever

possible, except when to do so would injure

them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and

when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to

improve our conscious contact with God as we

understood Him, praying only for knowledge of

His will for us and the power to carry that

out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the

result of these steps we tried to carry this

message to alcoholics and practice these

principles in all our affairs.



These steps seem strong meat for reforming

alcoholics. It helped me greatly to remember

that this program was not some optimistic

chart for super-saints. It was based on the

actual experience of human beings, alcoholics

like myself. They were not impossibly idealistic

steps; they had all been attempted by others

successfully. It is sometimes said that all

the steps are spiritual except the first. For

me, the first step is also essentially spiritual.

I could admit in words to myself that I was

powerless over alcohol, but where would that

take me unless that admission embraced not

only the actual wording but also what was

implicit in it? No, taking that step was a

declaration to myself that because I sincerely

wanted to recover, I was fully resolved to

try to live out the way of life suggested in

the following eleven steps.



The second step, too, called for determination.

Here I could no longer avoid my spiritual life.

I had to subdue my pride and acknowledge that

a greater Power, God, was in complete control

of my life. I had to strive to make God a

daily living reality in my life, not a pious

Sunday morning superstition. The third step

was perhaps the hardest, relinquishing control

and guidance of my life to God. But in the

measure of the success I attained here would

lie the measure of success I would meet with

in continued sobriety, happiness and peace of

mind. The fourth step was akin to our general

confession. For me, that moral inventory was

not a moral mudrake but a serious effort to

find out about myself, to find what things

stood in the way of my carrying out the third

step. The fourth step taught me self-knowledge.

We take an inventory of ourselves; we do not

attempt to beat our neighbor’s breast.



The fifth was only a practical application of

the truism that confession is good for the soul.

This and the next few following steps contain

no great difficulty for the alcoholic who is

sincere in his acceptance of the third. The

tenth was our nightly examination of conscience

with the added obligation of owing up to human

beings when we were frankly wrong. The eleventh

was a guide to our carrying out the third. The

sting of the steps is contained in the tail of

the Twelfth, that part which suggests we carry

out the foregoing principles in all our affairs.

Many may be willing enough to practice them

in their alcoholic affairs. The older members

had found out that this would not be enough

to ensure happiness and a good conscience.

This part of the steps is that which binds

‘them all together. It cannot be ignored with

safety.



It always remains important that we remember

why we joined A.A. It was to recover our own

sobriety for our own sakes; not to preach to

the unconverted. That must remain our primary

goal. We cannot afford to forget our previously

helplessness when friends talk prettily of

our apostolic mission. Charity begins at home.



Since A.A. has been operating there for longer

and on a very much greater scale, the Church

in America has had more opportunity to assess

its work and direction. An extract from a

letter received here from the Chancellor of a

very large archdiocese will give some idea of

the impression made. "The Bishops of our country

up to now have not taken any official stand

on A.A. The movement has not been condemned;

the movement has not been officially approved.

Personally I am convinced that the A.A. movement

is the most sound and the most successful approach

that has ever been made in our country to the

problem of the alcoholic. In my archdiocese,

I am under the impression that about one-half

of its members at one time were Catholics.

The Twelve Steps appeal to me as being entirely

in harmony with the Catholic faith and morals,

as being clearly stated religious and moral

principles in language which is simple and

easily understood. Honesty to oneself, humility,

contrition, purpose of amendment, unburdening

one’s soul and accusing one’s self of failing

to another person, placing one’s hope and

confidence in God, making restitution, relying

upon prayer and meditation, spiritual reading,

seem to me to be sound and solid principles

necessary for rehabilitation. The apostolic

step to carry the message to alcoholics and

to help others to rehabilitate themselves ‘is

also in conformity with Christian teaching and

seems to be psychologically of utmost importance.

Cases have come to my attention of priests who

were victims of alcoholism being re-instated

through A.A. A large number of lukewarm and

indifferent Catholics have returned to an

active practice of their faith; and strange

as it may seem, several instances are known

of non-Catholics who have been brought to the

Catholic faith through the A.A. movement...

The Chancery has been very solicitous to avoid

giving the impression that the archdiocese

was trying to take over the A.A. movement or

trying to interfere in either the organization

or activities of the Group."



It may sound ungracious to stress the

importance of that last sentence, considering

that A.A. is looking for all the help the

Church can give. But one of the biggest

attractions to the prospective member is that

he is joining a society of alcoholics run and

controlled in every way by alcoholics. Any

suggestion that the group was in someway

controlled or unduly influenced by an outside

"partisan" body, however benevolently disposed,

would be bad news for the unity of the members.

We seem to be forced into the ungenerous

position of having to say to our outside

helpers:



"Please do all you can for us; but stay in

your corner until we want you." In truth, we

are only guided by our experience, which is

that one alcoholic is the best ambassador to

another. We speak the same language, a language

that cannot be entirely understood by even

the most sympathetic of our friends who is not

himself an alcoholic.



What we ask from priests who have a will to

help us is that they will be content with

steering alcoholics towards us and that they

will be willing to stand aside when they have

done so; that they will, even though perhaps

with every conscious effort, try to understand

that the alcoholic is not, in his present

condition at least, a deliberate sinner but a

very sick person requiring experienced treatment;

and that they will examine our successes rather

than our failures, for our successes are being

gained in a field considered hopeless until

recently. And we ask them, too, not to look

on us as rivals to any temperance movement

already sponsored by them. We are not in

competition with anyone or anything.



A.A. is not a charitable society in the sense

that it engages to supply its members with

loans of money, employment or even clothes for

which it has no further personal use. It is a

charitable society in the meaning of Christ’s

teaching. We ask for nothing material for

ourselves personally or as groups. We do ask

for charity for the sick alcoholic; sympathy

for his problem; understanding of his condition

and a willingness to advise him to seek recovery

where so many thousands have already found it.

A.A. is in no way a substitute for the

Sacraments"; it has proved to be in most

cases of Catholic alcoholics a positive urge

towards them. It is with confidence then that

we ask for the good will of the readers of The

Furrow and for their prayers - that those

of us who have recovered may maintain our

sobriety and that the Grace of God may bring

our members and their families that happiness

which is the end of man.



A Member

C/o The Country Shop, 23 St. Stephen’s Green,

Dublin.

March 1972



The Vatican and Alcoholics Anonymous. A Dublin

member of Alcoholics Anonymous, 23 St. Stephens

Green, Dublin 2, writes:



Archbishop Enrici, Apostolic Nuncio to Great

Britain, came to, and spoke at the recent

European Convention of A.A. held at Bristol

at the end of September last. Afterwards he

made the suggestion that, as he believed little

was known at the Vatican about A.A. and its

suggested way of recovery, a visit from a

couple of its members might be of great value

to both parties.



Accordingly, in January of this year, an English

Catholic member and I departed for Rome and

remained for a fortnight. Our only contact, up

to the time of our arrival there, was through

the Bishop of Clifton, the very recently

appointed rector of the English College. But

through his generous guidance we obtained a

list of those he thought we should try to

contact. And through the kindness of the Irish

mother superior of the Poor Servants of the

Mother of God at Mater Dei Convent (they have

a sister house in Raheny, Dublin), we were lent

the services of an Italian-speaking nun to help

us to effect the necessary approaches by

telephone. We acknowledge with deep gratitude

that all of them, very willingly and at very

short notice, agreed to make the appointments

which enabled us to carry out the program

given briefly as follows:



Talks given to the students and staff of the

English, Irish, Beda, Scottish and North

American Colleges.



Reception by Mgr. Uylenbroek, Secretary of

the Council of the Laity.



Reception by Cardinal John Joseph Wright,

Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the

Clergy.



Reception by the Superior General of the Society

of Jesus, Very Rev. Father Arrupe, S.J.



Reception by the Servants of the Paraclete.



On January 19, we had the supreme honour of

being received by His Holiness Pope Paul in

private audience. The Pope graciously greeted

us not only for our own sakes, but for the

work we were engaged on (i.e. Alcoholics

Anonymous ), which he described as fine work,

a real apostolate. He urged us to press on

with our work, gave it his blessing and told

us that he would keep it and us in his prayers.



The granting of this private audience went far

beyond our dearest dreams and was a most

wonderful experience for us both. It was, too,

a historic event in the thirty-six—year history

of our fellowship, being the first and so far

the only occasion on which a reigning pontiff

has received individuals in private audience

as members of Alcoholics Anonymous.



The editor of The Furrow, who has always been

so generous in his encouragement and active

aid to A.A., has placed me more deeply in his

debt than ever by inviting this short account

of our embassy to Rome. It is a pleasure to

inform him that reprints of an article ‘A

Catholic Member’s Appreciation of Alcoholics

Anonymous,’ which appeared in The Furrow of

November 1953, have found a good home and an

enthusiastic reception in all the departments

of the Secretariat and in all the colleges

we had the good fortune to visit.





----- Original Message -----

Dear John,

I found this article in my documents in the

archives. I dont know who send it to me as

I copied it into Word. You may have even sent

it. It doesn't matter as long as you get a copy.

I'm going to laminate this too as it is from

another source.

God bless love Ron





From: JOHN R.

To: Ron C.

Subject: Fw: The start of AA in Ireland



Dear Ron,



Thanks for that. I sent it to you. But I had

lost the original copy. So praise God for

miracles that are as modern as tomorrow (or

today's technology), in that it has been

retrieved.



Thanks and Kind Regards, John R


0 -1 0 0
4163 Bill Lash
From Akron to the Internet From Akron to the Internet 3/7/2007 4:51:00 PM


FROM AKRON to the INTERNET

A time line of A.A. communication

The ways A.A's carry the message have changed over the years. The message

hasn't.



1935: Bill W. & Dr. Bob meet face to face in Akron.

1939: The Big Book is published, carrying the message in print.

1939: First public service message about the Big Book appears in a New York

Times ad, "Have You an Alcoholic Problem?"

1941: NBC begins a 13-part syndicated radio program called Is Alcohol a

Problem in Your Home?

1941: Saturday Evening Post publishes Jack Alexander's article about AA.

1944: The AA Grapevine begins monthly publication as AA's meeting in print.

1945: Paramount Pictures releases the movie The Lost Weekend, based on the

novel by Charles Jackson.

1946: Marty Mann explains alcoholism and AA on the radio show We The People.

1947: First transatlantic telephone call is received by The Alcoholic

Foundation from an Army hospital in Germany.

1948: An AA member explains principles of the program on Hi, Jinx, a morning

radio show on WNBC.

1949: CBS radio broadcasts a 10 episode drama about an alcoholic who finds

AA. GSO is deluged with inquiries.

1953: HAAM, an international fellowship of AA ham radio operators, is

established.

1953: Art Linkletter interviews a masked woman member of AA on his TV show.

1954: The Grapevine asks for the signals of amateur radio operators who

would like to communicate via the airwaves.

1956: An all-AA TV program, Mr. Hope, an actual closed meeting of masked AA

members, debuts in Detroit. AA HQ in Detroit is besieged by telephone calls

and letters from people wanting more information.

1956: Bill W. and Eve M. from general service are anonymous guests on the

popular radio show Martha Deane on WOR.

1960: Broadcast of a radio show called Alcoholism - The Problem and the

Hope, featuring Marty Mann and a GSO staff member.

1962: The Betty Furness radio program features a show on international AA.

1963: The movie Days of Wine and Roses is previewed by GSO staffers before

its release.

l963: WNBC begins broadcasting an AA radio program called Ask an Alcoholic.

1966: AA creates a 60-second TV spot for distribution by public information

committees.

1966: Five groups in two states hold the first telephone conference-call

meeting.

1970: KUAT in Tucson, AZ, launches AA-of-the-Air, a radio show for homebound

AAs.

1973: David Suskind interviews 5 women AAs on his TV show.

1976: Members of AA, Al-Anon, and Alateen are interviewed on the John Gentry

Radio Show on WGCH in Greenwich, CT.

1979: The 29th General Service Conference views and approves Alcoholics

Anonymous - An Inside View, a 28-minute color film produced by AA.

1980s: First AA bulletin boards, online meetings, and chat rooms appear.

1986: Q-Link, one of the first online AA groups, begins meeting, growing to

200 members nationwide in two years.

1988: GSO begins compiling a list of online AA groups.

1989: ABC-TV broadcasts My Name is Bill W. 1990s: TDD (text telephone)

technology helps hard-of-hearing AAs talk with other AAs.

1990: Kansas Area public information establishes AA Message of the Day, a

telephone service featuring daily readings from the "Twelve and Twelve."

1990: Connecticut's public radio show, Open Air New England, puts open AA

meetings on the air.

1992: Thirteen 1-hour AA meetings airing 3 times a week are broadcast on

cable TV stations in Portland, OR.

1995: Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous (OIAA) is established.

2002: The Queensland Young People in AA Convention is netcast worldwide from

Australia.

2002: Online AA reps meet, hoping to establish a service conference for AA

in cyberspace.



From the AA Grapevine with addition:

2003-2004: Today there are literally thousands of Cyberspace Recovery sites

and domains, AA chats, bulletin boards and meetings, a number of which are

live voice meetings regularly scheduled 24 hours around the clock, and in

many languages and countries other than the US.


0 -1 0 0
4164 jblair101
"Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play 3/7/2007 7:47:00 PM


This play has been traveling in recent years and is now off-Broadway.

Here is but one review:







MY NAME IS 'BILL W.,' AND I'M A BAD PLAY

By FRANK SCHECK, New York Post, March 6, 2007





Rating: 1 1/2 stars



March 6, 2007 -- WHO would have guessed a drama about the founders of

Alcoholics Anonymous would be the laugh riot of the year? But that's

the unfortunate result of "Bill W. and Dr. Bob," the well-intentioned

but haplessly executed effort written by novelist Stephen Bergman and

clinical psychologist Janet Surrey that opened last night.



What should have been a powerful and inspirational story plays instead

like a drunken road-show version of "The Producers."



The problem certainly isn't with the source material, which inspired a

superb television movie years ago, "My Name is Bill W.," co-starring

James Woods and James Garner.



This tale of the legendary 1935 meeting between alcoholics Bill Wilson

(Robert Krakovski, delivering an intense performance), a failed New

York stockbroker, and Dr. Bob Smith (Patrick Husted), an Ohio surgeon,

which led to the formation of one of the most influential

organizations in modern history, could have been the stuff of gripping

drama.



Unfortunately, the production, directed by Rick Lombardo and

originally presented at Boston's New Repertory Theatre, goes for a

tone that seems mostly geared for laughs.



The endless and repetitive drunk scenes, especially the ones involving

Dr. Bob, are played with a broadness suited to W.C. Fields - witness

the scene when, after operating on one of his patients while under the

influence, he happily reports, "I'm OK. Patient's OK, too!" (Cue

audience hilarity.)



Things don't improve in the tedious dramatic scenes illustrating

Wilson's strained marriage with his long-suffering wife (Rachel

Harker) and the efforts made by Wilson and the newly sober Smith to

spread their doctrine to a variety of initially less-than-receptive

drunks (all played by Marc Carver).



There are some undeniably moving moments in the show, and it's only

fair to report that the audience - uncommonly large for a new

off-Broadway play - responded with obvious enthusiasm. But it's hard

not to wish that this important tale had been rendered in a more sober

fashion.



BILL W. AND DR. BOB

New World Stages, 340 W. 50th St.; (212) 239-6200.


0 -1 0 0
4165 jblair101
Another New York review of the play, "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" Another New York review of the play, "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" 3/7/2007 7:53:00 PM


Reviews Mar 6, 2007



New York

Bill W. and Dr. Bob

Reviewed By: David Finkle



Robert Krakovski and Patrick Husted in <i>Bill W. and Dr.

Bob</i><br> (© Carol Rosegg)

Robert Krakovski and Patrick Husted in Bill W. and Dr. Bob

(© Carol Rosegg)

"My name is Bill W., and I'm an alcoholic," confides a character

standing under an isolating light at the very start of Bill W. and Dr.

Bob, Stephen Bergman and Janet Surrey's crudely constructed if

undeniably sincere play about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. At

the performance I attended at least a third of the audience members

cheerily responded "Hi, Bill" or "Hey, Bill." When immediately

afterward, a second character standing in a second shock of light

says, "Dr. Bob, alcoholic," the same third of the audience -- now

augmented by a few bandwagon-hoppers -- responded with "Hi, Bob."



If a significant portion of the ticket buyers behaved as if they

were at a church-basement AA meeting, listening to a peer begin a

confessional speech, in a way they were. To use support-group

vernacular, the patrons were present at the ultimate qualification, or

candid revelation of one's drinking history. Since people in recovery

don't usually seek social niceties from their gatherings, neither are

they likely to demand drama turgical niceties in a play that champions

Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith, a couple of supposedly hopeless

drunks who had the breakthrough understanding in 1935 that sharing

humiliating experiences is what could lead chronic drinkers to forego

their debilitating habit.



It's probably helpful to keep in mind while watching this

depiction of this story -- which for many has a weight equivalent to

Moses' bringing the tablets back from Mount Sinai -- that the

literature cherished by AA members often has the homogenized feel of

committee writing. Even Anita Fuchs' set, which consists mostly of

looming panels that travel clumsily back and forth, has the makeshift

appearance of a meeting room.



In a series of introductory scenes, New York stockbroker Bill

Wilson (Robert Krakovski) and Ohio surgeon Bob Smith (Patrick Husted)

are shown literally falling-down drunk, often trying the patience of

their long-suffering wives Lois Wilson (Rachel Harker) and Anne Smith

(Kathleen Doyle).



Even Smith's exposure to the pre-AA Oxford Group precepts doesn't

convince him to stop drinking, but it does prepare him for a desperate

tete-a-tete with the now-sober Wilson, who ends up in Akron on a

business trip and needs to talk to another empathizing boozer to avoid

going on a bender. By the time they finish their inaugural six-hour

chat at the home of local doyenne Henrietta Seiberling (Deanna

Dunmyer), they've established the basic structure for every AA meeting

since.





As the first act ends, the pair realizes they need to confirm

their theory by recruiting one more convert. In act two, they do so --

but only after encountering potential-member difficulties and dealing

with resistance from their dubious wives. It reveals nothing to say

they find their man. The rest is spiritual -- and spirits -- history.



In keeping with the quality of the writing, director Rick

Lombardo's production is rough around the edges. Some of the acting,

particularly during the inebriation segments, is reminiscent of the

Reefer Madness under-marijuana-influence scenes; it's histrionic,

let-this-be-a-lesson-to-you stuff.



On balance, Husted's Dr. Bob is more controlled than Krakovski's

Bill W., while Doyle's Anne Smith is better crafted than Harker's Lois

Wilson. But nuance isn't high on anyone's to-do-list, including Marc

Carver and Deanna Dunmyer, who play everybody else who come in contact

with the men.



The promotional material for Bill W. and Dr. Bob proclaims it the

"first-ever play about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous." However,

a superior 1989 teleplay, My Name is Bill W., starring James Woods and

James Garner as the seminal figures, exists and is available for home

viewing.



Nevertheless, Bergman and Surrey's script will likely lead to

future productions, especially by amateur and AA groups everywhere.

The birth of Alcoholics Anonymous may not be the greatest story every

told, but without question it's one of the greatest 20th-century

stories -- even when it isn't told greatly.


0 -1 0 0
4166 Bill Lash
The Nixon Letters (1974) The Nixon Letters (1974) 3/8/2007 10:21:00 AM


The Nixon Letters



Richard Nixon was presented with the 1 millionth

copy of the Big Book. It was presented by Dr.

Jack Norris. A picture of Dr. Norris presenting

it to Nixon hangs on the wall at Stepping Stones.

Tom Pike, an early California AA member sober

since 1946 had arranged for this presentation.

Tom had served as Assistant Secretary of

Defense and Special Assistant to President

Eisenhower.



When the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse

and Alcoholism (NIAAA) authorized by the

Hughes Act was created, Tom, along with Marty

Mann and others, was appointed to the NIAAA

advisory committee, and when his term ended

he was replaced by his wife, Katherine.



During Watergate, Tom told me he had written

a letter to Nixon advising him to use the 12

steps, but not because of his drinking. Both

his letter to President Nixon, as well as

President Nixon's reply are included below.





February 1, 1974



President Richard M. Nixon

The White House

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue

Washington, DC



Dear Mr. President:



Your State of the Union speech delivered to

Congress was easily one of the finest I've

heard you deliver. And I've heard you make a

lot of good ones since you took on Jerry

Voorhees in 1946 out here in the old 12th

C.D.!



Your style, your appearance, your manner, and

what you said were confident, strong, and

impressive. You were every inch the leader in

full command of himself and the situation.

Your whole performance was one to inspire and

rebuild the confidence of all who heard you,

even including the Democrats.



Restoring the national confidence in the

President is the biggest task you have. No

military, industrial, or government leader

can lead without this indispensable ingredient

of confidence. I remember when I was in the

White House in 1956 and 1958 trying to help

Eisenhower and Sherm Adams ward off impending

recession and stem a rising unemployment rate,

our overriding agenda item was how to restore

citizens and consumer confidence and optimism.



As your long time good friend and supporter,

whose faith, confidence, and affection is still

strong today, I would like to make a suggestion

which I hope you will consider seriously. You

may think me presumptuous, but as an old

friend, I am willing to run that risk.



First, a bit of necessary background: it has

been established since time immemorial that

admission of fault is good for the soul and

that to err human and to forgive is divine.

These are two principles found in most of the

world's religions, ancient and modern. They

are also used by modern psychiatrists and

psychologists.



Not surprisingly, because these principles

are basic to the needs of man, they are also

contained in the 12 Steps of Alcoholics

Anonymous which you can find in Chapter 5 of

the Big AA book we presented you in April

of last year at the White House. These 12

Steps are forged from simple universal

principles drawn from religion and medicine.

They constitute a program of recovery that

works!



I suggest that you substitute the word,

"Watergate" for "alcohol" in the first step

(which would then read "admitted we were

powerless over Watergate, and that our lives

had become unmanageable"). Then you should

conscientiously apply the rest of the 12 steps

to your own situation. I am confident such a

course of personal action rigorously followed,

would ultimately resolve this difficult dilemma

for you and the country.



My prime suggestion: In whatever way you can,

after carefully studying Steps 4, 5, 6, and

7, put Step 10 into action: -- "when we were

wrong, promptly admitted it".



I know it's late, and there are many

complexities legal and otherwise, but if you

could somehow publicly admit more fully the

mismanagement of Watergate, I am confident

that you personally and the country will

experience relief, surcease, and new hope

beyond your fondest expectations.



(See the attached Harris Poll clip from today's

Los Angeles Times on Public Compassion.)



And why? Simply because the country's President

and its citizens are both human and divine

and have always behaved and reacted like the

creatures of God which indeed they are. I

believe most people know almost instinctively

that to be forgiven, they must forgive, and

who among us has not erred -- does not need

forgiveness?



By using these principles, Len Firestone and

Jonathan Winters, Jim Kemper, and I have

discovered the way out of the baffling personal

dilemma which nearly destroyed us.



You can too, Mr. President! If you would like

to explore this personally and in greater

depth, please call on me. Nothing would please

me more.



Katherine's and my fervent prayer for you and

Pat is that God will make His will known to

you and give you the power to carry it out.



Faithfully yours,

Thomas P. Pike.



P.S. You demonstrated good understanding on

Step 11 when you urged those attending the

prayer breakfast yesterday "to try through

prayer to find out what God wants America to

be rather than to ask Him always to see that

what we believe America to be prevails."

Step 11: "Sought through prayer and meditation

to improve our conscious contact with God as

we understood Him, seeking only for knowledge

of His will for us and the power to carry it

out."



T.P.P.



- - - -



POLL FIND COMPASSION FOR NIXON

Chicago (UPI) -- Watergate developments have

damaged President Nixon's public esteem but

they also are evoking a sense of public

compassion, according to the latest survey by

pollster Louis Harris. This was the conclusion

drawn when 56% of those queried agreed with

a statement that the President is "trying to

do his best in an almost impossible job." Only

38% disagreed.



- - - -



THE WHITE HOUSE

Washington



February 25, 1974



Dear Tom:



Before another day passes, I wanted you to know

that I received your very thoughtful letter of

February 1. Many times in the past I have had

occasion to thank you, but I must say once

again how much it means to know I have been

able to count on the loyalty and understanding

of so many long-time friends.



I deeply appreciate your suggestions and the

genuine spirit of concern and goodwill in which

they were made. As you know, in several

televised press conferences I accepted

responsibility along the lines you discussed.

Further, on a number of occasions I have pledged

my full cooperation to the Special Prosecutor

and to the Judiciary Committee so that the

investigations can be concluded, the guilty

parties brought to justice, and those innocent

of any wrongdoing may be cleared and, hopefully,

have their good names and reputations restored.

However, I have also stated that I will follow

the precedent set by every other United States

President of never doing anything that weakens

the Office of the President or impairs the

ability of future Presidents to make the great

decisions that are so essential to this Nation

and to the world. This has been a difficult

period not only for me but for all Americans,

and when this and related matters are brought

to a full and just resolution, I am confident

the majority of the American people will come

to understand that the trust they placed in me

has not been violated.



In the meanwhile, it is a source of constant

reassurance to me to have the support of

friends like Katherine and you and to be

included in your prayers. Pat joins me in

sending you both our warmest personal regards.



Sincerely, RN



Mr. Thomas P. Pike

611 West Sixth Street

Los Angeles, California 90017.


0 -1 0 0
4167 Glenn Chesnut
Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act 3/12/2007 1:44:00 PM


The two most important pieces of legislation

about alcoholism in the United States were

the Prohibition Amendment and the Hughes Act.

The first ended up being widely regarded as

a failure.* The second was not only a success,

it still lies at the base of some of the most

effective help being given to American

alcoholics even today, over thirty-five years

later. Most modern American alcoholism treatment

facilities, along with the kind of alcoholism

counselors whom they use and sometimes a

significant part of their funding, are based

on the provisions of the Hughes Act.



The Hughes Act was put on the legislative

agenda in the U.S. Congress by Senator Harold

Hughes from Iowa, who had served a series of

terms as governor of Iowa before being elected

to the U.S. Senate, in spite of admitting

openly that he was a recovered alcoholic.

Following the precedent set by Mrs. Marty Mann,

he and Tom Pike and other major political

figures freely acknowledged their alcoholism

in public, but made no mention of their

membership in A.A. except in private.



In private of course, we can see Tom Pike not

only mentioning his A.A. membership to President

Nixon, but preaching the twelve steps to the

president in this fascinating letter that Bill

Lash has found.



Of special interest to us in this group: Nancy

Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was

another of the key political figures during

the period when the Hughes Act was being passed

and implemented (1970-1980). She was the

senatorial aide whom Senator Hughes assigned

to do whatever had to been done in order to

get the legislation passed. On many occasions,

Nancy also played a key role in coordinating

the efforts of the many other A.A. members in

Washington D.C. and elsewhere who were involved

in gaining passage of the bill.



President Nixon was one of the Washington

figures who opposed the Hughes Act. For a

long time after its passage, he refused to

sign it, which would have been the equivalent

of vetoing it. Tom Pike, whom Nixon regarded

as a good friend and staunch supporter, was

one of the influential A.A. people who kept

up the pressure on Nixon in their private

contacts with him until he finally grudgingly

put his signature on the bill.



Part of the problem was that Hughes and some

of his supporters were Democrats. Pike, as a

devoted Republican, was able to add his voice

in support of the Hughes Act and raise the

issue above the partisan level.



For a full account of the enactment and

implementation of the Hughes Act, see Nancy

Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends:

The Politics of Alcoholism.



http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html

______________________________



*During the Prohibition Era, the number of

people in the United States who died of

cirrhosis of the liver and other strongly

alcohol related diseases underwent a slight

but nevertheless significant and measurable

decline. On that ground, it could be regarded

as a public health success.



The two problems were that (1) it did nothing

effective to prevent true hardcore chronic

alcoholics from obtaining alcohol. It was not

a solution at all to the problem of alcoholism.

Real alcoholics obtained easily available

illegal alcohol or brewed or fermented their

own alcoholic beverages. And (2) the rise of

criminal associations for importing or making

illegal alcohol produced murder, violence,

and lawbreaking on a scale which the government

could not deal with effectively.


0 -1 0 0
4168 Arthur S
Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) 3/8/2007 7:12:00 PM


The hyperbole associated with the Section

Mexico situation is no less extreme than that

of the German situation.



The paragraph below, by a Section Mexico member

named Alberto P, is an example. It speaks

volumes and is posted on the web site containing

a copy of the Mexican copyright document being

portrayed as a deception on the part of Wayne P.



(From the web site): "[editor's note: In Mexico,

one trusted servant and long time AA member,

who served more than 2000 AA groups was

sentenced for one year of prison, because of

alleged copyright violation on August 4th 1995.

This was possible because in 1992 AAWS had

registered the book in Mexico as sole copyright

owner. The registration states, that Wgne (sic)

P___ is the author of the book "Alcoholics

Anonymous" and the English-Spanish translator

is Jose A L G___. It seems to be a common

pattern, that AAWS employs lies, falsified

evidence and wrong allegations to stop the AA

message from being carried and maintain a

monopoly.]"



The statement gives the impression that someone

was jailed for a year. But later the web site

states: "The sentence was to put the accused

(an alcoholic Trustee) in jail for one year.

This light sentence can be paid through a fine

of five thousand New Pesos (about $850.00).

This fine has already been paid, and the Trustee

won't have to go to jail."



I'll come back to Alberto P's statement at the

end of this reply.



An anomaly in a document does not constitute

a conspiracy, a lie or illegality. The claim

of Wayne P deceptively portraying himself as

having written the book is irresponsible.

Fair-minded people can arrive at much different

conclusions rather than echoing baseless

charges.



The legal (not dictionary) term "author" can,

in many instances, be anyone who holds copyright

ownership to a work whether they actually wrote

it or not. The information below is from the

Cornell University web site regarding sections

of the US Code (Federal laws) applying to

copyright ownership:



Initial Ownership:



Copyright in a work protected under this title

vests initially in the author or authors of

the work. The authors of a joint work are

co-owners of copyright in the work.



Works Made for Hire:



In the case of a work made for hire, the

employer or other person for whom the work was

prepared is considered the author for purposes

of this title, and, unless the parties have

expressly agreed otherwise in a written

instrument signed by them, owns all of the

rights comprised in the copyright.



Transfer of Ownership:



(1) The ownership of a copyright may be

transferred in whole or in part by any means

of conveyance or by operation of law, and may

be bequeathed by will or pass as personal

property by the applicable laws of intestate

succession.



(2) Any of the exclusive rights comprised in

a copyright, including any subdivision of any

of the rights specified by section 106, may be

transferred as provided by clause (1) and owned

separately. The owner of any particular

exclusive right is entitled, to the extent of

that right, to all of the protection and

remedies accorded to the copyright owner by

this title.



On April 22, 1940, Bill W and Hank P

transferred ownership of all their interests

in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" to the

Alcoholic Foundation. The transfer included

Bill's initial copyright ownership filed

in April 1939.



The Alcoholic Foundation was later renamed to

the "General Service Board of AA" and their

subsidiary corporate publishing arm, initially

known as "Works Publishing Inc," later became

"AA Publishing Inc" and later still became "AA

World Services (AAWS) Inc." They hold for

safekeeping and manage AA's copyrights and

trademarks.



Given that the Big Book in question in Mexico,

was the 3rd edition published in 1976 (5 years

after Bill W's death) the revised story section

(about 2/3 of the book) plus new preface and

foreword likely put it into the category of

"works made for hire" if specialists were

hired to compile the new edition as is often

done for publications projects. In any event,

the book goes way beyond the so-called "first

164 pages" that Bill W is specifically

identified with as the initial author.



When a corporation holds copyright ownership,

its chief (or a designated) officer typically

acts in behalf of the corporation in legal

matters requiring a signature or personal

identity on a legal instrument.



In April 1989 Wayne P became the General

Manager of GSO. That also legally made him

"President of AAWS, Inc." It occurred in the

same year as the Mexican copyright paperwork

of August 1989. In terms of putting a name down

for the "author" whoever typed Wayne's name

on the document could well have done so to

reflect his capacity and authority as President

and chief officer of AAWS (the owner of the

copyright).



This is probably more likely than unfairly

claiming Wayne deceitfully portrayed himself

as having written the book. Alberto P's

statement above claims that Wayne's name

appeared as "author of all [I repeat all] the

literature of Alcoholics Anonymous, at the

National Information Center of Copyrights of

the SEP (Public Education Secretariat) in

Mexico."



My assumption is that Wayne's name continually

appeared for all the literature because he

was President and chief officer of AAWS, the

legal copyright holder of all the literature

being submitted for Mexican copyright

protection.



Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: Mitchell K.

Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007

Subject: Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks

as author of Big Book)



Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about

LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I

didn't however see anyone mention that the author of

the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in

Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get

a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living

author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that

book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so

interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may

be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of

codified principles exist that take precedence over

the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of

> state and national laws and treaties having the

effect of law"



Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book

or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt

here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of

the actual document bearing Wayne's signature.



Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a

selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless

one gets caught.


0 -1 0 0
4169 Bill Lash
One of AA''s 1st Women One of AA''s 1st Women 3/12/2007 8:39:00 AM


For Men Only?

Anonymous

AA Grapevine – June 1960



One of AA's first woman members describes her

pioneering struggle to gain acceptance of her

sex in what was exclusively a man's world of

sobriety.



WHEN I attended my first AA meeting on April 11,

1939 I was the only woman alcoholic there. And

I might not have been there had there not been

one before me whose story I had read in the

manuscript of a book called "Alcoholics

Anonymous." Some weeks before, my psychiatrist

had handed me a red cardboard-covered document,

saying flatly that he had about given up hope

of being able to help me after nearly a year of

intensive treatment in the sanitarium he headed.

But, he added, he had just read something that

might help, and he wanted me to read it. He said

little more, except to remark that this group

of men (the emphasis is mine) seemed to have

discovered a way out of the same trouble I had

-- drinking.



I took the book in trembling hands and went

back to my room with a wild surge of hope

lifting me up the stairs three steps at a time.

As I read, the hope swelled and sank again and

again. My trouble had a name: alcoholism. It

was music to my ears. Alcoholism was a disease.

Shame, guilt and self-condemnation rolled away

like heavy fog, letting light and air into my

heart again. I could breathe; I could bear to

live. Alcoholism was "an 'allergy' of the body

coupled with an obsession of the mind"; there

was no known way of reversing the sensitivity

of the body to alcohol, therefore an alcoholic

could never safely drink again. This was the

first reason I had ever heard that made sense

to me. I could accept it. I could face a life

without drinking, because I had to; there was

no choice -- my body wouldn't let me. It wasn't

just a question of mental aberration after all;

I wasn't insane, or hopelessly neurotic; I had

a disease. And thousands of other people had it,

too. I wasn't the only one; I wasn't so peculiar,

so different, so alone beyond the pale. I had

a disease! My mind made a song of hope out of

those words. Then came the let-down.



This handful of men had found an answer to the

"obsession of the mind" that drove them to

drink against their own will, against their own

desire, against not only their better judgment

but against their own good. That answer was God.

My hope sank. This was not for me. I couldn't

use this answer. I had lost God in my teens. I

had outgrown this primitive notion. I was an

intellectual, a worldly, widely-travelled,

well-educated once-successful woman. A woman.

My hope completely disappeared. This was a

man's book, entirely about men, obviously

written by and for men, and a particular kind

of men at that -- religious men. Well, that was

that. I wasn't religious, and I wasn't a man.

I'd have to find my own way out after all. I

was still alone.



And so I argued with the doctor, day after day

and week after week, about the God business.

Patiently he let me get my arrogant, infantile

arguments off my chest. Firmly he would send

me back to "read some more," for I was creeping

through the book, dragging my feet over each

arguable phrase. He had quickly answered my

complaint that this was a book for men only by

saying simply, "What's so different about

women suffering the same illness?" But this

had seemed no more satisfactory an answer to

me than his careful parrying of my arguments

against God. I had consigned myself to outer

darkness and there I would stay, alone with my

ego and my pride.



Until the day came; the day the crisis in my

personal life did exactly what the book had

said it would. It raised the bottom to where I

precariously hung, and I fell right into God's

hands. Gloriously, joyously, ecstatically

surrendered to complete faith in a Power

greater than myself. I was free. So free that

I knew I could walk out my third-story window

and keep right on walking. God supported me at

a level I had never dreamed was possible, and

there was no prison -- neither of my own making,

nor of the wood and stone that made the

sanitarium, nor of gravity itself -- that

could contain me. I was free!



A vestige of my old suspicions sent me running

to the doctor. Was I now completely mad? If

so, I liked it. Sanity was never like this; I

felt wonderful, happy, radiant, bursting with

love and delight. The grass had never been so

green, the sky so blue, people so nice and

so good. The world was a divinely beautiful

place . . . . I was free. "Perhaps you are,"

the doctor said, "for I believe you have had

an authentic spiritual experience. Hold on to

it, and go back and read that book!"



I did, and it seemed a different book. True,

it was still obviously by and for men, but it

held truth for me and I gobbled it up. For

the first time, I read it through to the end.

And there I found, among the personal stories,

one entitled "A Woman's Story." Thank You, my

newly found God. I might have known You would

supply everything I needed.



For a while it seemed the book held everything

I needed. I was reluctant to meet the people.

I was too busy revelling in a state of mind I

had never known: a beatific state of pure

delight in living. Yet I was really a little

afraid -- of what these men would be like, of

how they would accept me, a woman. Would one

other woman be enough? Would she like me and

accept me? Would she be there if I went to meet

them? Would the reality of flesh and blood

spoil my ecstatic dream? Was it a dream?



Weeks passed and the good doctor took matters

into his own hands; he made a date for me to

meet one of these men and his wife, and to go

with them to a meeting in Brooklyn. I was

warmly received; first names were the rule,

they told me, and Mrs. M. -- Sandy -- made me

feel more than welcome. We had dinner and set

off for Brooklyn, to Bill and Lois's brownstone

house. The first floor seemed crowded as we

entered. I saw many women among the crowd, but

no one looked as if they had ever had a drink.

It looked like any friendly gathering in any

home, with far too many strangers for my taste.

I flew upstairs to leave my coat and lingered

there. Lois came up and put her arm around my

shoulder. "We want you down with us," she said.

"You are very welcome." And she looked as if

she meant it. I think I have never seen such

sheer lovingness shining out of a person -- it

warmed and comforted me. Lois, a non-alcoholic

wife, taught me about love. But that's another

story.



I was made welcome, and yet -- did I notice just

a flicker of uncertainty? Just a slight wariness,

a kind of disbelief on the part of these men

that I could really be one of them? I did,

for some of their questions revealed it. I was

the youngest person there, by far. And I was

a woman. I was fairly well-dressed, was

currently an inmate of a rather expensive

private sanitarium (they didn't know I was

stony broke, was there on a "scholarship" for

free), and was obviously from a "good" background

-- well-brought-up, well-educated, and

apparently meeting the specifications for that

old-fashioned label "a lady." These things

are not usually associated with drunken

women, even in the minds of drunken men. This

I knew from my own experience.



So I identified myself, and found myself

telling the naked truth about my drinking as

I had never been able to do even with my

doctor. And I noted the small intake of breath,

the widening of eyes, the retreating but still

dormant suspicion in some of my questioners.

But for enough of them, I made the grade. I

was accepted as an authentic alcoholic, and

therefore a qualified participant in the

meeting. There were a number of non-wives and

friends present, for this night was an occasion:

the first printed and bound copy of the book

"Alcoholics Anonymous" was on display. I knew

I was in when I was asked to sign the copy,

along with the rest. And I further knew I was

in when I found myself talking almost exclusively

to the men who were alcoholics. They so

surrounded me, and asked so many questions,

that I knew I was indeed a rarity -- something

of an occasion myself.



As soon as I decently could, I asked about the

woman whose story was in the book. She was much

older than I, with grown children. Her name was

Florence. No one seemed to know her except

Bill and Lois, for she was in Washington where

one of the earliest members of the group, a man

named Fitz, was trying to get something started.

He was having a very rough time, for all the

prospects, including Florence, kept getting

drunk. I breathed a prayer of thanks that she

had stayed sober long enough to write her story

-- for me. Bill said that she and Fitz would

be coming to New York soon, and I could meet

her. There were hopes, Bill said, that the one

other group, in Akron, might have a woman member

soon -- they were working on one. But here in

New York I had to face the fact that I was,

indeed, alone. Unique. I didn't like it. I had

been feeling alone and unique for far too long.

At least the men here were like me. Or were

they?



I began to understand the faint uncertainty,

the wariness, the disbelief. I began to wonder

myself if this program would work for women.

I could deal with their questions about my

rights to the title of alcoholic -- I had

qualifications to match anyone's -- but only

time could deal with their unexpressed doubts

as to the ability of a woman to live their

program successfully. And only time did the

job.



The first year was the hardest. I had plenty

of prospects but few results. All that long hot

summer I went into New York once a week to the

meeting, hoping a woman might appear, find me,

know that she was not alone and unique, and

stay. Florence came, and left, without any real

contact being established between us -- she

did not seem to want to talk. I saw her only

once again, sober, and then she died on a

drunk.



I found it difficult to convince the older

members that I wasn't a freak, the only one

of my kind, and to convince the newer men that

there was such a thing as a woman alcoholic and

that I was one. The newer men often found it

difficult to conceal their disgust at the idea,

and more than once I heard, "If there's one

thing I can't stand, it's to see a woman drunk!"

They just couldn't believe that women couldn't

help it any more than they could. Most of the

men were wonderful, and fully accepted me as

one of themselves, but there remained a curious

loneliness, nonetheless.



Finally, in October, came Nona, whom I had met

when I entered the sanitarium nearly two years

before. She came in wholeheartedly, a quiet

girl not wanting to be noticed, but she was

there. In November I went with Bill and Lois

to Akron and called on the woman (drunk in bed)

for whom they had had hopes, but I was no more

successful than the men had been. I went on to

Chicago where Sylvia lived -- Sylvia who in

October had gone to Cleveland to find AA in the

home of an early member, and who had returned

to Chicago full of sobriety and zeal to help

others. Now there were three of us the country

over -- but three is a crowd. Three can be neither

alone nor unique, and we were all three too

different to be the same kind of a freak!



We used to hold long discussions as to why it

was so difficult to help women, why they couldn't

stay sober, couldn't make this program work.

Some of the men thought it was because women

were more dishonest than men, less direct.

"Sneakier" was a word they used. I had to agree

that this fitted most cases and that it made

my self-appointed task of getting women into AA

almost impossible. But I thought I understood

the reasons for this -- and I still think they

are the reasons that keep many women from

success in AA.



We have a double standard in our society. Many

things that are acceptable, or at least

forgivable, in men are not in women. Although

the high pedestal on which women used to be

enthroned is slowly descending to a more

realistic level (and most women are duly

grateful for this entry into more comfortable

realms), it is doing so only in fits and starts,

like a balky elevator. There are still areas

of behavior that are forbidden to "nice" women,

and excessive drinking is one of these. Many

men who are themselves alcoholic and because

of this have committed every sin the book, are

inclined to look down their noses at women who

have suffered the same mishaps, and for the

same reason. They can't be "nice." Many non-

alcoholic wives are inclined to be even more

sure of this last statement, and not to want

their husbands to associate with such

questionable types.



Women know this, of course, and the moment their

drinking shows signs of being different, even

slightly out of control, they instinctively go

for cover, and bend all their effort to

concealment. They become past masters at

deception, at hiding their condition and the

cause of it -- their bottles. Their opportunities

are great if they are housewives, as many of

them are. They are alone and in command of

their environment for most of their waking hours.

By the time their control is completely gone

and they are discovered, they have built a

pattern of deception that is nothing short of

superb. Such a fantastic construction, built

so painstakingly for so long, does not fall to

pieces easily, and they have trained themselves

so well to safeguard and protect it under all

circumstances, even helpless drunkenness, that

they often cannot relinquish this "protective

coloration" even when they finally want to and

know that they must if they are to live.



The double standard has created another hazard

for the woman seeking help in AA. Men are

not supposed to care too much about "what the

neighbors say" or "what will Joe think of

you," but women most definitely are. Girls are

brought up to consider other peoples' opinions

of them, first and foremost. When a woman starts

drinking too much, and then uncontrolledly,

this becomes a prime bugaboo that haunts her

sober moments. Unfortunately, the name

Alcoholics Anonymous is frequently all mixed

up in her already mixed-up thoughts with the

total unacceptability of alcoholism, alcoholics,

and everything to do with both, to most of

the people she knows and whose opinions of her

she has been taught to value above all else.

How can she fly in the face of all she holds

most dear, and pin this taboo label on herself?

Better to hide in the bowels of the earth, or

the bottom of a bottle.



Finally, there are the misconceptions of an

earlier more prudish day, when only "loose

women" were supposed to drink; ergo, women who

drank were "loose women," and if they drank

badly, they were "lost women." The scarlet

letter has hung like a terrible barrier in

front of many women who desperately needed what

AA had to offer them. And I may add that the

scarlet letter has been pinned on many innocent

alcoholics -- whose only sins (?) were those of

alcoholism -- by self-righteous or fearful

nonalcoholic women -- and men, too. Man's

inhumanity to man might better read "women's

inhumanity to women" particularly in the smaller

communities of our enlightened country.



These, I think, are some of the valid reasons

why the growth of the number of women in AA

was painfully slow at first, and even now is

amazingly greater in the big cities than in

even their own suburbs, let alone smaller towns.

Yet growth there has been, and a commensurate

change in attitude both within and outside of

AA. For women have recovered and gone back to

their own close little societies to talk about

it, to teach them to know better, to let their

own stories be known in the hope that they

might reach into some other room, secluded and

well-hidden as their own once was. Women who

have embraced AA have found the God-given courage

to face their whispering accusers, and to face

them down; to hold on to their sobriety and to

build from it a good life, open to the most

critical inspection; to accept new values that

do not give weight to "what the neighbors think

-- or say"; and to rely on their own conscience

in communion with their own God as they

understand Him, for judgment of their worth.



All this is not easy. I think it must be said

that because of cultural and environmental

patterns which are beyond her control, it is

not yet the same for a woman to have alcoholism

as it is for a man. It is much, much more

difficult, and the chances of finding help and

achieving recovery are undeniably less. Yet

there has been improvement over the past twenty

years, and I believe that the situation will

become progressively better as alcoholism is

more widely accepted for the disease that it

is, and the unfair stigma gradually disappears.

Public acceptance will one day bring about the

cultural and environmental changes that are

beginning to be evident. The double standard

has no place in the realm of illness, and never

did have. Once alcoholism is firmly esconced

in that realm, much of the old prejudice

against women alcoholics will die a natural

death.



But it is a long, slow process. Five years after

I came into AA, in the spring of 1944, the

several large AA groups in Pittsburgh asked me

down to speak at a public meeting. They told

me outright that they wanted to show Pittsburgh

that there was such a thing as a woman alcoholic,

and that she could recover. Still, it was many

months after that before they got their first

woman member. Groups have written me from all

over the country to say that after four and

five years of intense activity and growth, they

had yet to have a woman member; I have made

countless trips and many speeches to show

myself and give evidence of the possibility.

This was a major reason why I temporarily gave

up my doubly precious anonymity (being a woman

and therefore vulnerable to scarlet letters

and a host of other unpleasant things) when I

entered public work in this field. No one was

ever happier to resume that protective cloak

after two years of both veiled and crass

remarks and looks. It takes great faith and

plenty of sheer strength to be an avowed woman

alcoholic. I am both humbled and proud of my

sex as I see the growing numbers who dare --

for the sake of all those others still

undeclared, still suffering the tortures of

the damned, alone.



Things move. During the late 1940s I had many

letters from lone woman members, seeking

comfort, company, and advice on how to find

and bring in others. Then in the 1950s I began

to be asked to come and speak at luncheons

and dinners of just AA women. I thought the

corner had been turned, that no one could ever

again imagine AA was "for men only." Imagine

my shock and horror when in December 1959,

twenty years and eight months after my solo

landing in AA, a woman member in a great mid-

western city I was visiting told me of several

AA groups in the city who would not receive

women as members -- stated flatly that they

did not want women in their groups. Several

men with us corroborated her story, adding,

before I could catch my breath, that it didn't

matter so much in a big city like theirs where

there were plenty of other groups a woman could

go to, but what bothered them was the fact

that this was true in many small cities and

towns where there was only one group, so that

in effect this meant denying AA to women

alcoholics.



I could hardly believe my ears, but the people

who told me this were not erratic, newly sober

alcoholics, but longtime members who know their

area well and traverse it frequently. If this

is so, in the mid-west, it may very well be so

in many parts of our vast country, especially

in sparsely settled areas with only small towns.



There obviously remains much to be done. After

twenty years, women coming into AA are still

pioneers. Those who make statistical studies

claim that there is only one woman alcoholic

for every five-and-a-half men. The records of

public outpatient clinics seem to bear out

this figure. But there are many physicians in

private practice, where a confidence is

considered as sacred as in the confessional,

who state categorically the women alcoholics

outnumber the men in their practice. Certainly

in the big cities, one often finds the women

outnumbering the men at closed meetings. Is

it just that women alcoholics more readily find

their way to the anonymity of the big cities?

Or are there more of us than even we think?



Once again, only time will tell us. But I hope

and pray it won't have to be another twenty

years for all those out there alone.


0 -1 0 0
4170 Mary Latowski
Re: From Akron to the Internet From Akron to the Internet 3/8/2007 8:54:00 AM


Bill, this is very interesting but I was

wondering if you think Loners International

and World Hello might also be included?



Mary Pat

South Bend





On 3/7/07, Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> wrote:

>

> FROM AKRON to the INTERNET

> A time line of A.A. communication

> The ways A.A's carry the message have changed over the years. The message

> hasn't.

>

> 1935: Bill W. & Dr. Bob meet face to face in Akron.

> 1939: The Big Book is published, carrying the message in print.

> 1939: First public service message about the Big Book appears in a New

> York

> Times ad, "Have You an Alcoholic Problem?"

> 1941: NBC begins a 13-part syndicated radio program called Is Alcohol a

> Problem in Your Home?

> 1941: Saturday Evening Post publishes Jack Alexander's article about AA.

> 1944: The AA Grapevine begins monthly publication as AA's meeting in

> print.

> 1945: Paramount Pictures releases the movie The Lost Weekend, based on the

> novel by Charles Jackson.

> 1946: Marty Mann explains alcoholism and AA on the radio show We The

> People.

> 1947: First transatlantic telephone call is received by The Alcoholic

> Foundation from an Army hospital in Germany.

> 1948: An AA member explains principles of the program on Hi, Jinx, a

> morning

> radio show on WNBC.

> 1949: CBS radio broadcasts a 10 episode drama about an alcoholic who finds

> AA. GSO is deluged with inquiries.

> 1953: HAAM, an international fellowship of AA ham radio operators, is

> established.

> 1953: Art Linkletter interviews a masked woman member of AA on his TV

> show.

> 1954: The Grapevine asks for the signals of amateur radio operators who

> would like to communicate via the airwaves.

> 1956: An all-AA TV program, Mr. Hope, an actual closed meeting of masked

> AA

> members, debuts in Detroit. AA HQ in Detroit is besieged by telephone

> calls

> and letters from people wanting more information.

> 1956: Bill W. and Eve M. from general service are anonymous guests on the

> popular radio show Martha Deane on WOR.

> 1960: Broadcast of a radio show called Alcoholism - The Problem and the

> Hope, featuring Marty Mann and a GSO staff member.

> 1962: The Betty Furness radio program features a show on international AA.

> 1963: The movie Days of Wine and Roses is previewed by GSO staffers before

> its release.

> l963: WNBC begins broadcasting an AA radio program called Ask an

> Alcoholic.

> 1966: AA creates a 60-second TV spot for distribution by public

> information

> committees.

> 1966: Five groups in two states hold the first telephone conference-call

> meeting.

> 1970: KUAT in Tucson, AZ, launches AA-of-the-Air, a radio show for

> homebound

> AAs.

> 1973: David Suskind interviews 5 women AAs on his TV show.

> 1976: Members of AA, Al-Anon, and Alateen are interviewed on the John

> Gentry

> Radio Show on WGCH in Greenwich, CT.

> 1979: The 29th General Service Conference views and approves Alcoholics

> Anonymous - An Inside View, a 28-minute color film produced by AA.

> 1980s: First AA bulletin boards, online meetings, and chat rooms appear.

> 1986: Q-Link, one of the first online AA groups, begins meeting, growing

> to

> 200 members nationwide in two years.

> 1988: GSO begins compiling a list of online AA groups.

> 1989: ABC-TV broadcasts My Name is Bill W. 1990s: TDD (text telephone)

> technology helps hard-of-hearing AAs talk with other AAs.

> 1990: Kansas Area public information establishes AA Message of the Day, a

> telephone service featuring daily readings from the "Twelve and Twelve."

> 1990: Connecticut's public radio show, Open Air New England, puts open AA

> meetings on the air.

> 1992: Thirteen 1-hour AA meetings airing 3 times a week are broadcast on

> cable TV stations in Portland, OR.

> 1995: Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous (OIAA) is established.

> 2002: The Queensland Young People in AA Convention is netcast worldwide

> from

> Australia.

> 2002: Online AA reps meet, hoping to establish a service conference for AA

> in cyberspace.

>

> From the AA Grapevine with addition:

> 2003-2004: Today there are literally thousands of Cyberspace Recovery

> sites

> and domains, AA chats, bulletin boards and meetings, a number of which are

> live voice meetings regularly scheduled 24 hours around the clock, and in

> many languages and countries other than the US.

>

>

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4171 Stephen Gentile
RE: "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play 3/10/2007 12:26:00 PM


Many times throughout the show Dr.Bob callled

out to Bill with the name "Abercrombie." Was

this a nick name of Bill's or was this plain

garble?



I first saw a prelude in Akron last year at

Founders Day weekend by the Gatehouse. They

were advertising its opening coming up this

year.



On opening night Coffee was served in the

aisles. On the 7th it was stopped permanently.

I was at the show and thought it was a well-

rounded little show with a good reflection of

AA history with slight overacting. I doubt if

any non-AA would appreciate this performance or

be able to give a favorable review. Any AA

would find it warming. Most were talking

favorably after.



Opinion of course.



Steve G in NJ



- - - -



Note from the moderator: Dr. Bob liked to

give people strange nicknames. He sometimes

called James D. (J. D.) Holmes by that

nickname "Abercrombie."



J. D. said he was the tenth person to get

sober in A.A. -- counting Bill W. and Dr. Bob

as A.A. Number One and Number Two. J. D. was

the founder of the first A.A. group in Indiana



http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html



In his memoirs, J. D. says (of Dr. Bob):



"He was great on slang. He used to call me

'Abercrombie.' Why, I don't know. He'd call

up and say, 'Bring your frail over,' meaning

my wife. He had a peculiar vocabulary, but

a wonderful one. He was an educated man, but

some of his slang you didn't hear the ordinary

person use."



I've heard that Dr. Bob sometimes called

Bill W. "Willy." But did he ever call him

"Abercrombie"? What do our experts in the

group say on that?



Glenn C., South Bend


0 -1 0 0
4172 Gallery Photography
Proxy battle in Akron Proxy battle in Akron 3/10/2007 2:17:00 PM


Do any of you know more details about the Proxy

battle Bill W. lost, in Akron, just prior to

meeting Doctor Bob?



I've also looked up information on just what

a proxy battle is. I think I understand but it

would help if I had more specific information

on how and what the fight is about.



If I understand it correctly, Bill was like

some "middle man" fighting between company and

stockholders as a substitute for them fighting

each other directly.



Well, who was he fighting and what was he

fighting for?



Hope you can help me understand this better.



Thanks.



Rotax Steve


0 -1 0 0
4173 Gallery Photography
Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? 3/10/2007 2:22:00 PM


Is there any historical information of amends

made to Bill W. from Ebby T.?



If so, do any of you have a brief summary or

can direct me to any books? (particularly page

numbers)



Thanks.



Rotax Steve

Nangi namaj perez


0 -1 0 0
4174 ROGER WHEATLEY
Re: AA history in Great Britain AA history in Great Britain 3/12/2007 7:14:00 AM


The GB GSO has recently moved to new space at

10 Toft Green, York, England. There is an

abundance of archives and a growing interest

in that country. They will soon be on display

in a room at the new office space for visitors

to view similar to the GSO archives in New York.



Over the past few years, parts of these

archives have been displayed throughout the

countries of England, Scotland, and Wales in

Archives "Road Shows". The growing interest

in archive work led to last years General

Service Conference approving a pamphlet on

the subject and this years conference will

consider the draft of a guideline for

archivists.



Roger W.


0 -1 0 0
4175 John Lee
Re: Proxy battle in Akron Proxy battle in Akron 3/13/2007 3:12:00 PM


No. Bill was representing a group of stockholders

who wanted to take over management of the Akron

company. In a proxy fight an individual obtains

"proxies," a document which constitutes legal

permission to vote for the stockholder who

supplied the proxy. A prospective management

group contacts stockholders with large voting

blocks of stock, and asks those stockholders

for their proxies. Stockholders elect the board

of directors for a corporation. The board of

directors selects the officers of the company,

such as president, vice-president, treasurer.


0 -1 0 0
4176 Arthur S
RE: Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act 3/12/2007 4:23:00 PM


To add to the commentary on prohibition:



The 18th amendment to the US Constitution,

prohibiting alcohol, was ratified on January

16, 1919. On October 28 of that year, Congress

passed the Volstead (or National Prohibition)

Act over President Wilson’s veto.



Terms such as “bootlegger” “speakeasy” and

“bathtub gin” entered the national vocabulary.



As a physician, Dr Bob could obtain distilled

alcohol "for medicinal purposes" with

virtually no effort. Prior to repealing the

18th amendment, beer was legalized and Dr.

Bob writes about it ("the beer experiment")

in his story. Bill also wrote in his story

about the concoctions he made in his home

("Bathtub gin, two bottles a day, and often

three, got to be routine").



On December 5, 1933, the 21st amendment to

the US Constitution was ratified repealing

the 18th amendment. The almost decade and

a half prohibition of alcohol was widely

disregarded and yielded fortunes for organized

crime in bootlegging and smuggling.



Both Bill W and Dr Bob did some of the worst

of their drinking at a time when alcohol

was illegal in the US.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut

Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:45 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers group

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act



The two most important pieces of legislation

about alcoholism in the United States were

the Prohibition Amendment and the Hughes Act.

The first ended up being widely regarded as

a failure.* The second was not only a success,

it still lies at the base of some of the most

effective help being given to American

alcoholics even today, over thirty-five years

later. Most modern American alcoholism treatment

facilities, along with the kind of alcoholism

counselors whom they use and sometimes a

significant part of their funding, are based

on the provisions of the Hughes Act.



The Hughes Act was put on the legislative

agenda in the U.S. Congress by Senator Harold

Hughes from Iowa, who had served a series of

terms as governor of Iowa before being elected

to the U.S. Senate, in spite of admitting

openly that he was a recovered alcoholic.

Following the precedent set by Mrs. Marty Mann,

he and Tom Pike and other major political

figures freely acknowledged their alcoholism

in public, but made no mention of their

membership in A.A. except in private.



In private of course, we can see Tom Pike not

only mentioning his A.A. membership to President

Nixon, but preaching the twelve steps to the

president in this fascinating letter that Bill

Lash has found.



Of special interest to us in this group: Nancy

Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was

another of the key political figures during

the period when the Hughes Act was being passed

and implemented (1970-1980). She was the

senatorial aide whom Senator Hughes assigned

to do whatever had to been done in order to

get the legislation passed. On many occasions,

Nancy also played a key role in coordinating

the efforts of the many other A.A. members in

Washington D.C. and elsewhere who were involved

in gaining passage of the bill.



President Nixon was one of the Washington

figures who opposed the Hughes Act. For a

long time after its passage, he refused to

sign it, which would have been the equivalent

of vetoing it. Tom Pike, whom Nixon regarded

as a good friend and staunch supporter, was

one of the influential A.A. people who kept

up the pressure on Nixon in their private

contacts with him until he finally grudgingly

put his signature on the bill.



Part of the problem was that Hughes and some

of his supporters were Democrats. Pike, as a

devoted Republican, was able to add his voice

in support of the Hughes Act and raise the

issue above the partisan level.



For a full account of the enactment and

implementation of the Hughes Act, see Nancy

Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends:

The Politics of Alcoholism.



http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html

______________________________



*During the Prohibition Era, the number of

people in the United States who died of

cirrhosis of the liver and other strongly

alcohol related diseases underwent a slight

but nevertheless significant and measurable

decline. On that ground, it could be regarded

as a public health success.



The two problems were that (1) it did nothing

effective to prevent true hardcore chronic

alcoholics from obtaining alcohol. It was not

a solution at all to the problem of alcoholism.

Real alcoholics obtained easily available

illegal alcohol or brewed or fermented their

own alcoholic beverages. And (2) the rise of

criminal associations for importing or making

illegal alcohol produced murder, violence,

and lawbreaking on a scale which the government

could not deal with effectively.













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4177 Mel Barger
Re: Proxy battle in Akron Proxy battle in Akron 3/13/2007 7:57:00 PM


The proxy battle Bill lost in Akron was for

control of National Rubber Machinery (NRM), a

small manufacturer of machine tools for the

tire industry. He lost out to a group headed

by a fellow named Nils Florman, who was soon

ousted from the company after a few years.



Either then or a short time later, a very able

man named Paul Frank took over the company and

ran it successfully for about 25 years. He

was highly regarded in Akron and was also an

influential member of St. Paul's Episcopal

Church, which was pastored by Rev. Walter

Tunks (the man Bill called seeking contact

with an alcoholic). I interviewed Mr. Frank

at his beautiful home in 1980. He was 86 at

the time.



NRM had been made up of four companies brought

together in 1928. But they had never been

able to realize the benefits of consolidation

and the company was in serious trouble by 1935,

which made it a candidate for a takeover. At

that time, there were 113,000 shares of NRM

stock outstanding, and it had a market value

of about $1 per share. Thus the company could

have been acquired for $113,000, but with the

price so depressed, shareholders were unwilling

to sell. They were interested in seeing a

management change, however, and Florman's group

evidently made a better case than Bill and his

partners.



Had Bill succeeded in the fight and been named

president of the company, he would have been

paid a salary of about $14,000 per year---a

handsome income in 1935. I doubt that he would

have been thinking about calling on another

alcoholic while facing the problems of running

a business. (My personal opinion is that Bill

could have run NRM very well.)



T. Henry Williams, who with his wife Clarace

hosted the first group of alcoholics in Akron,

lost his job with NRM as a result of the proxy

battle. He later became a principal in the

McNeil company, which was an NRM competitor

in manufacturing tire processing machines.



Both NRM and McNeil went through many changes,

but today they are joined as one company!



And that completes today's lesson about the

tire manufacturing business and its effect

on AA's origins.



Mel Barger







Mel

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)





----- Original Message -----

From: Gallery Photography

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:17 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Proxy battle in Akron





Do any of you know more details about the Proxy

battle Bill W. lost, in Akron, just prior to

meeting Doctor Bob?



I've also looked up information on just what

a proxy battle is. I think I understand but it

would help if I had more specific information

on how and what the fight is about.



If I understand it correctly, Bill was like

some "middle man" fighting between company and

stockholders as a substitute for them fighting

each other directly.



Well, who was he fighting and what was he

fighting for?



Hope you can help me understand this better.



Thanks.



Rotax Steve











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4178 spebsqsa@att.net
AA History Buffs AA History Buffs 3/16/2007 4:13:00 PM


It is worth reminding those who read AA History Lovers:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorylovers/

that the original AA History Buffs forum is available:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/

Nancy Olson moderated it from 2000 through 2002.



The move from AAHstoryBuffs to AAHistoryLovers was

necessary because a technical glitch made it impossible

to add new members to the original Yahoo! group.



Nancy copied the significant posts (but not all of the

discussions) from Buffs into Lovers when she started

it as a replacement.


0 -1 0 0
4179 Mitchell K.
Re: Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? 3/13/2007 8:26:00 PM


Is there any information as to why Ebby needed

to make amends to Bill?







> Is there any historical information of amends

> made to Bill W. from Ebby T.?

>

> If so, do any of you have a brief summary or

> can direct me to any books? (particularly page

> numbers)

>

> Thanks.

>

> Rotax Steve

> Nangi namaj perez

>

>


0 -1 0 0
4180 John Lee
Re: Prohibition Prohibition 3/15/2007 10:30:00 AM


Alcohol and drinking were never "illegal"

under federal law. The purchase or use of

intoxicating liquors was never proscribed by

the 18th Amendment or Volstead Act. Those

laws prohibited the manufacture, transportation

or sale of intoxicating liquors.



Bob and Bill could drink and buy liquor without

fear of legal penalties during the Prohibition

period. When you see old movies of a "raid"

by Treasury agents, you won't see the agents

arresting the drinkers. They just close the

joint and impound the hootch.


0 -1 0 0
4181 Frank E. Nyikos
Re: Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) 3/14/2007 3:32:00 PM


Would be interested in ordering Share magazine,

but living in a small rural community, do

not have access to convert dollars so as to

send pounds - Would appreciate further info

and/or email address to find out how this

could be done.



"Frank E. Nyikos" <fenyikos@hoosierlink.net>

(fenyikos at hoosierlink.net)





----- Original Message -----

From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 5:35 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: AA history in Great Britain





> Share magazine - the British counterpart of

> Grapevine - has produced a book called Share

> and Share Alike to mark the 60th anniversary

> of AA's foundation in Britain (England,

> Scotland and Wales) on 31 March 1947. It

> contains stories from each of the past six

> decades of Share and its predecessor the AA

> Newsletter. The book also includes information

> about the British Fellowship's history. The

> price is £4.75 sterling (inc p+p), checks

> etc. payable to 'General Service Office'.

>

> Send orders to:

>

> Share and Share Alike,

> PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green,

> York YO1 7NJ UK.

>

> Laurie A.,

> Editor, Share

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
4182 Bob
Re: Abercrombie and "Bill W. & Dr. Bob" the play Abercrombie and "Bill W. & Dr. Bob" the play 3/13/2007 4:13:00 PM


Abercrombie & Fitch was a big "casual luxury"

clothing retailer in the 1930's, .... very

common to see folks on the golf greens wearing

it so it might have been a moniker insinuating

someone was a social climber (predate yuppie),

but in a fun way, on their way up the sobriety

social scale.......a joking reminder not to

forget where they came from......



Rob



- - - -



Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com> wrote:

Many times throughout the show Dr.Bob callled

out to Bill with the name "Abercrombie." Was

this a nick name of Bill's or was this plain

garble?



Steve G in NJ



- - - -



Note from the moderator: Dr. Bob liked to

give people strange nicknames. He sometimes

called James D. (J. D.) Holmes by that

nickname "Abercrombie."



J. D. said he was the tenth person to get

sober in A.A. -- counting Bill W. and Dr. Bob

as A.A. Number One and Number Two. J. D. was

the founder of the first A.A. group in Indiana



http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html



In his memoirs, J. D. says (of Dr. Bob):



"He was great on slang. He used to call me

'Abercrombie.' Why, I don't know. He'd call

up and say, 'Bring your frail over,' meaning

my wife. He had a peculiar vocabulary, but

a wonderful one. He was an educated man, but

some of his slang you didn't hear the ordinary

person use."



I've heard that Dr. Bob sometimes called

Bill W. "Willy." But did he ever call him

"Abercrombie"? What do our experts in the

group say on that?



Glenn C., South Bend


0 -1 0 0
4183 Arthur S
RE: Prohibition Prohibition 3/18/2007 12:34:00 PM


Hi John



I beg to differ with your interpretation of

the Volstead or National Prohibition Act - it

did in fact include provisions limiting the

alcohol content of beverages and private

possession and consumption. As with most

federal law there were also exceptions defined

but they were not open ended.



Beverages with an alcohol content of 0.5% or

more were explicitly illegal. Also, while

there were some provisions for allowable

possession and use of alcohol in one's home,

it did not include alcoholic beverages that

were illegally manufactured.



There were no restrictions on alcohol used

for fuel, medicinal purposes and sacramental

usage in religious services. Needless to say

prescriptions for alcohol went through the

roof and people seemed to have taken a mighty

sharp turn at becoming awfully religious in

their use of sacramental wine (grin).



Movies, due to their poetic license and time

limitations, are very unreliable in demon-

strating actual facts and conditions. As an

example, the movie "The Untouchables" starring

Kevin Kostner (and to some degree the TV

series) would have you believe that Elliot

Ness was responsible for the indictment and

conviction of Al Capone and witnessed the

death of his underboss Frank Nitti.



None of that is true. The IRS nailed Al Capone

for tax evasion and he was also charged with

about 5,000 violations of the Volstead Act.

Frank Nitti committed suicide about 5 or 6

years after Capone's imprisonment rather than

go to prison himself. Ness' role is actually

much exaggerated but it makes for a good story.



To some degree I believe you are juxtaposing

the inability (and unwillingness) to enforce

the law as if the law itself allowed certain

things to be legal that it actually made

illegal. The Volstead Act was supposed to have

been heavily enforced in the South and West

but very sparingly enforced in the North and

East of the US. In many locations and communi-

ties it was not enforced at all and looked

upon with scorn.



For the enforcement that was done, court

dockets became so overloaded with criminal

cases that it too had the effect of limiting

enforcement. Also public intoxication arrests

skyrocketed during prohibition further

impacting the courts and overwhelming them.



In any event, the grand experiment was an

unmitigated failure. Supposedly per capita

alcohol consumption actually increased over

the duration of the Volstead Act until repeal

of the 18th amendment when it declined (go

figure).



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

(johnlawlee at yahoo.com) wrote:



Alcohol and drinking were never "illegal"

under federal law. The purchase or use of

intoxicating liquors was never proscribed by

the 18th Amendment or Volstead Act. Those

laws prohibited the manufacture, transportation

or sale of intoxicating liquors.



Bob and Bill could drink and buy liquor without

fear of legal penalties during the Prohibition

period. When you see old movies of a "raid"

by Treasury agents, you won't see the agents

arresting the drinkers. They just close the

joint and impound the hootch.


0 -1 0 0
4184 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Abercrombie and "Bill W. & Dr. Bob" the play Abercrombie and "Bill W. & Dr. Bob" the play 3/17/2007 12:03:00 PM


Abercrombie would be a common word. In the

west there is a city named after a fort named

after an American Colonel on the Red River.

As a doctor, Dr Bob would have had to be aware

of a foreign doctor known on for his work on

major diseases. On the web, one can see more

references to the name in the area where he

grew up and went to school.


0 -1 0 0
4185 jenny andrews
Re: Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) 3/17/2007 3:45:00 AM


From Laurie A., David J., and Shakey Mike:

ordering information for Share



From: <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Hi Frank,



Will forward your message to our GSO in York,

UK. If you get no reply you can contact them at:



aashare@btconnect.com

(aashare at btconnect.com)



Or - telephone (UK) 01904 644026.



Thanks for your interst and good hunting!



Laurie A.



- - - -



From: Frank E. Nyikos, Milford, Indiana, USA

<fenyikos@hoosierlink.net>

(fenyikos at hoosierlink.net)



>Would be interested in ordering Share magazine,

>but living in a small rural community, do

>not have access to convert dollars so as to

>send pounds - Would appreciate further info

>and/or email address to find out how this

>could be done.



- - - -



From: "David Jones" <davidjones@davidjones3.plus.com>

(davidjones at davidjones3.plus.com)



The email address for Share magazine is:



aashare@btconnect.com

(aashare at btconnect.com)



Hopefully, they will bee able to help you.



The subscription rate is £12 p.a for UK;

£22.50 p.a. for Europe; and £35 p.a

international airmail.



God bless

Dave



- - - -



From: Shakey1aa@aol.com

(Shakey1aa at aol.com)



Shakey here - to update this ... I contacted

Share and was given the following information

in reference to their magazine. it may also

hold true for the book. I will pass on further

information as it becomes available.



>Hi Mike

>Thank you for your interest in subscribing

>to Share. To order 2 copies per month for

>1 year is 135.513 USD (£70.00) or 2 copies

>for 6 months 67.736 USD (£35.00). If it

>is easier this can be paid direct into our

>bank, I will send you the details if you

>require them.

>Best wishes

>Chris



Yis,

Shakey Mike



Going to 11th NAW in Phoenix Sept 6-9,2007.

Plan now to make it. Hope to see you all

there.



- - - -



FROM THE MODERATOR:



Here is the information given online by the

British AA organization. They give a cost of

one pound per issue if you buy it one issue

at a time. It seems to come out twice a

month, so that would be 24 pounds per year

bought in the U.K.



The price when sent by international airmail

is much steeper, because of postage. That

seems to be 35 British pounds for a six month's

subscription (12 issues), and 70 British

pounds for a year's subscription. That

would be about 2.92 British pounds per issue.



It's about two U.S. dollars to the pound,

which roughly doubles the cost in dollars. At

today's conversion rate, that would be 67.95

U.S. dollars for six months and 135.87 U.S.

dollars for a year's subscription.



http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/11literature.shtml

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/share.shtml



AA Share Magazine



SHARE is the official magazine of Alcoholics

Anonymous in England & Wales.



Its 32 pages are a source of sober views and

ideas on the world-wide Fellowship and its

programme of recovery from alcoholism. It serves

as a meeting between meetings for newcomers to

AA, helping them to both identify with others

and learn more about the Fellowship. SHARE also

aims to assist experienced members in maintaining

and improving the quality of their lives in

sobriety.



All content is written by AA members and is

divided into articles reflecting general

experience, strength and hope; those that

trace the roots, early days and fundamental

principles of AA; and those submitted in

response to the advertised monthly theme,

e.g. The Telephone Lifeline or My Best Day

Sober.



A 300-word editorial usually dwells on the

theme and there are regular features like

Letters Pages, Diary of a Recovering Alcoholic

and SHAREisms... a collection of homilies

and insights that reflect the hard-edged

wisdom available around 'The Rooms'

(meetings).



No poetry or obituaries are published.



SHARE is put together by an Editor and

Production Editor taking their turn at

Fellowship service. The production disk is

laid out and illustrated professionally.

Both report to a London monthly meeting of

the Editorial Team who advise, support and

monitor guidelines. The final decision on

published material rests with the Editor,

who is appointed on a four-year term by

the General Service Board of AA.



The 4-page glossy centrefold -- the cover

too has access to full colour -- serves as

a pull-out information guide on AA groups

and events. It is assembled by AA's paid

staff at the York General Service Office,

which also logs and despatches contributions

to the Editor and three advisory Readers;

types up the selected content and distributes

the magazine to groups and individual readers.



GSO organises subscriptions, which are paid

in advance. SHARE costs £1 and circulation

is around 4,800.



This is A.A. General Service Conference-

approved literature Prepared by General

Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous


0 -1 0 0
4186 Arthur S
RE: Re: Proxy battle in Akron Proxy battle in Akron 3/14/2007 12:58:00 PM


SOURCE REFERENCES:



AACOA--AA Comes of Age

AGAA--The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B

BW-RT--Bill W by Robert Thompson

BW-FH--Bill W by Francis Hartigan

CH--Children of the Healer, by Christine Brewer

DBGO--Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers

GB--Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson

NG--Not God, by Ernest Kurtz

NW--New Wine, by Mel B

PIO--Pass It On, AAWS

RAA--The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman



1909: The Akron Rubber Mold and Machine Co was founded. It reorganized

later, in 1928, as the National Rubber Machinery Co. In 1935, it became the

center of a proxy fight that brought Bill W to Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211-212, CH

4, NG 26, PIO 134, RAA 142)



1915: T Henry Williams went to Akron, OH to work as Chief Engineer for the

National Rubber Machinery Co. (PIO 145)



1935



April, Bill W returned to Wall St and was introduced to Howard Tompkins of

the firm Baer and Co. Tompkins was involved in a proxy fight to take over

control of the National Rubber Machinery Co based in Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211,

NG 26, BW-FH 74, PIO 133-134, GB 33)



May, Bill W went to Akron but the proxy fight was quickly lost. He remained

behind at the Mayflower Hotel very discouraged. (BW-RT 212, PIO 134-135)



===========

[after Bill and Bob met]

===========



June, Bill and Dr Bob went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at

the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to the

proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73, DBGO

70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture readings at

meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians Chapter 13 and the

Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96 says that meetings were

held at Dr Bob's house and moved to the Williams' house in late 1936 or

early 1937)



In other sources I've read, Bill also had dreams of possibly becoming the

chief executive of the company targeted for takeover.



Cheers

Arthur



--Original Message--



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Lee

Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:12 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Proxy battle in Akron



No. Bill was representing a group of stockholders

who wanted to take over management of the Akron

company. In a proxy fight an individual obtains

"proxies," a document which constitutes legal

permission to vote for the stockholder who

supplied the proxy. A prospective management

group contacts stockholders with large voting

blocks of stock, and asks those stockholders

for their proxies. Stockholders elect the board

of directors for a corporation. The board of

directors selects the officers of the company,

such as president, vice-president, treasurer.


0 -1 0 0
4187 robin_foote
Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected 3/19/2007 10:39:00 AM


Bluhm, Amy Colwell. Verification of C. G.

Jung's Analysis of Rowland Hazard and the

History of Alcoholics Anonymous. History of

Psychology. 2006 Nov Vol 9(4) 313-324.



From: Alcohol Self-help News

<

http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/verification-of-c-g-jungs-an\

alysis-of-rowland-hazard-and-the-history-of-alcoholics-anonymous/
>

































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4188 james.bliss@comcast.net
Re: Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected 3/21/2007 1:22:00 PM


Not sure why the link below was posted, but a

direct link to the information rather than the

below link to the copy is:



http://content.apa.org/journals/hop/9/4/313





---- Original message ----

From: "robin_foote" <gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au>

> Bluhm, Amy Colwell. Verification of C. G.

> Jung's Analysis of Rowland Hazard and the

> History of Alcoholics Anonymous. History of

> Psychology. 2006 Nov Vol 9(4) 313-324.

>

>

http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/verification-of-c-g-jungs-an\

alysis-of-rowland-hazard-and-the-history-of-alcoholics-anonymous/



0 -1 0 0
4189 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected 3/21/2007 2:31:00 PM


Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship:

The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the

Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics

Anonymous (2004).



http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html



Dubiel showed in this book, that although A.A.

tradition said that Hazard was a patient of

the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung for a year

in 1931, he could have spent two months with

Jung at most during the course of that year,

and even that would have been difficult, based

on his study of the Hazard family papers.



But in the period immediately following the

publication of this book, two other researchers,

Amy Colwell Bluhm, Ph.D., and Cora Finch,

working independently, established that Rowland

actually arrived in Zurich in May 1926 (five

years earlier than the traditional A.A. date).



See Bluhm's article "Verification of C. G.

Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the

history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the

American Psychological Association's journal

History of Psychology in November 2006 and



Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's

life and struggles with alcoholism at

http://www.stellarfire.org/



Other than the re-dating however, Bluhm's and

Finch's work corroborated the A.A. tradition

that Rowland Hazard was Carl Jung's patient

for a considerable length of time, and the

two of them discovered a good deal of detail

about Rowland's relationship with Jung and the

general background. Jung ended up telling

Rowland that he had never seen alcoholics of

his type recover until they became willing

to commit themselves to the spiritual life.



Since Rowland was a typical alcoholic, however,

it took him seven more years of denial and

misery -- as he continued to refuse to take

Jung's prescription seriously -- before he

met Courtenay Baylor from the Emmanuel Movement

and began seeking a spiritual solution to his

alcoholism.



Dubiel's book shows how Hazard had to be

hospitalized for his alcoholism in February

and March of 1932, and then from January 1933

to October 1934 was again in bad shape and

unable to carry on his business activities.

But then he explains how Courtenay Baylor

became Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933,

and continued to work with him through 1934.

It was under the influence of Baylor's

Emmanuel Movement therapy (with its

combination of spirituality and simple

lay therapy) that Hazard actually began

to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford

Group meetings, but his family was paying

Baylor to be his regular therapist.



In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped

rescue Ebby Thacher from being committed to

Brattleboro, and three months later, in

November 1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in

his kitchen, in the famous scene recorded

in the first chapter of the Big Book.


0 -1 0 0
4190 Bob S.
Henrietta Seiberling''s grave Henrietta Seiberling''s grave 3/21/2007 4:52:00 PM


An archivist friend of mine, who lives in

southern Indiana, would like to learn where

Henrietta Seiberling is buried. Best

information leads me to believe that her plot

is in Kentucky and that her gravestone is

inscribed "Let go and let God."



I would much appreciate this information -

thanks!



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
4191 Bill Lash
Charles B. Towns (1 of 2) Charles B. Towns (1 of 2) 3/22/2007 8:45:00 AM


Charles B. Towns, Ph.D.



In 1917, Charles B. Towns, Ph.D., who had

founded a Manhattan hospital at the turn of

the century as a "drying-out” facility, wrote

a groundbreaking article for The Modern

Hospital magazine in which he asserted,

"There is no such thing as 'curing' a case

of alcoholism. There is nothing on earth you

can do to prevent any human being from taking

up the use of alcohol again if he wants to."



Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics

Anonymous started his recovery at that

hospital. When the time came in 1938 to

finance the writing of the Big Book of

Alcoholics Anonymous and the selling of

shares in Works Publishing Co., Dr. "Silky"

Silkworth, Bill's physician and a friend of

A.A., helped to convert Dr. Towns into a

great A.A. enthusiast and had encouraged him

to loan $2,000 toward preparation of the

book, a sum that was increased to $4,000 and

later paid back in full. But he would not

buy stock, he wanted a note for security!



Dr. Towns also approached Fulton Oursler, then

editor of Liberty magazine, who commissioned

feature writer Morris Markey to write the

article "Alcoholics and God" for the September

1939 issue, giving A.A. its first national

publicity.



As we know, Ebby Thacher, sober in the Oxford

Group 2 months, and living at Calvary Mission

run by Rev. Sam Shoemaker, had visited with

Bill shortly after Armistice Day 1934. Bill

Wilson then made his first visit to Calvary

Mission on or about December 7, 1934, just days

before his last admittance to Towns Hospital,

December 11, 1934. This could very well account

for the influence on Bill’s fascination with

the conversion experience whether he realized

it or not.



He had researched much religious material as

well as Richard Peabody’s "Common Sense Of

Drinking," and perhaps the works of Charles B.

Towns, although it is not well known that

Charles Towns wrote three important books on

alcoholism: "Habits That Handicap" (1915),

"Reclaiming The Drinker"(1931), and "Alcohol

And Drug Sickness"(1934). Bill, with his

inquiring mind, may well have read them in his

previous trips to Towns Hospital.



Towns was very emphatic about never talking

down to an alcoholic, or scolding a man that

you are trying to help. (12 Steppers and

Al-Anons take note.)



There are other articles by or about Towns

listed below, and the text of two of them

follow below that:



Habits That Handicap: The Remedy for Narcotic,

Alcohol, Tobacco and Other Drug Addictions

(New York; London: Funk & Wagnalls, 1919)



Help for the Hard Drinker; What Can Be Done

to Save the Man Worth While (New York, 1912)



"The Injury of Tobacco and its Relation to other

Drug Habits," 83 Cent. Mag. 766-772 (1912)



The Peril of the Drug Habit, and the Need of

Restrictive Legislation (New York: Century Co.,

1912)



Federal Responsibility in the Solution of the

Habit-forming Drug Problem (New York, 1916)



The Personal Problem Confronting the Physician

in the Treatment of Drug and Alcoholic Addiction

(New York: Charles B. Towns Hospital, 1917)



The Present and Future of Narcotive Pathology,

in Three Parts (New York: Charles B. Towns

Hospital, 1917)



The Alcoholic Problem Considered in its

Institutional, Medical, and Sociological

Aspects, in Three Parts (New York, The

C. B. Towns Hospital, 1917)





NEW DRUG LAW HITS ACCIDENTAL USERS

Towns Says Provision Must Be Made to Treat

Thousands Who Got Habit Unconsciously.

THEIR SUPPLY SHUT OFF

Drug Fiends of the Underworld Will Be Little

Affected by Statute Governing Physicians'

Prescriptions.

New York Times June 21, 1914



The Boylan anti-drug law, which was passed by

the New York Legislature on March 28, and which

becomes effective on July 1, will result in

serious consequences if State and city

authorities do not make immediate provision for

the treatment of "innocent" drug slaves,

according to Charles B. Towns of 119 West

Eighty-first Street, who framed the law.



"There are thousands of persons in this city

alone who have unconsciously become addicted

to the use of habit-forming drugs and who are

not in any way to blame for their condition,"

Mr. Towns said yesterday. "Some of these

innocent victims may not yet know that they

have become drug fiends. No estimate can be

made of their number. These are persons who,

perhaps several years ago, were given drugs on

physicians prescriptions to alleviate suffering

from some disease or injury which, in most of

the cases has since been cured. The administra-

tion of the drug, however, creates a craving

for it which the patient cannot withstand, and

after the cause for the first doses is gone

the habit remains. The victims then secure more

and more of the drug on their physicians'

prescriptions. If the drug is denied them they

become violently nervous and show all of the

horrible symptoms of the deprived dope fiend

within twenty-four hours; making it necessary

for their physicians to renew the prescriptions.



"The new law provides that in the future, it

shall be unlawful for any physician, veterina-

rian, or dentist to issue prescriptions for

drugs except after a physical examination for

the treatment of disease, injury, or deformity,

and to prevent the forging of prescription

blanks every doctor signing them must affix a

record of his name in full, his office address,

office hours, and telephone number, and to

whom the prescription is issued, together with

the date of issuance. It can be filled but once,

and must be filled within ten days. It will

also be unlawful for any person to fill such

prescription without first verifying its

authenticity by telephone or otherwise or to

have drugs in his possession without authority.

Aside from the fact that any dealer or physician

found guilty of breaking the new law will be

guilty of a misdemeanor, his license may be

revoked upon his conviction.



"These new strictures will make it impossible

for the innocent drug fiends to secure more

drugs from their physicians. The law for the

time being will hardly affect the drug users

of the underworld, who have long known secret

channels through which they can obtain their

drugs. It will fall most heavily on the person

who has broken no law in the past in securing

habit forming drugs and will drive him--or her,

for there are vast numbers of women who have

become drug fiends in this manner--to seek

illicit drug dens if other methods are not

speedily provided. The law provides that

persons who are found to be habitual users of

such drugs shall be committed to a State,

county, or city hospital or institution

licensed under the State Lunacy Commission

until they have been treated sufficiently to

warrant their release. It takes only five or

six days to cure a drug fiend in a hospital,

but as yet the hospitals licensed by the

commission have not made ample preparation for

the treatment of more than a small percentage

of the cases which should be sent to them when

the law goes into effect if the highest good

is to be derived from the law.



"The movement for intelligent legislation

regulating drug traffic is comparatively young

and New York's new law will not remedy

conditions in this State, but it is a good

beginning. It should attract the attention of

intelligent people in other States, and should

be imitated throughout the country. Until this

is done, however, and uniform anti-drug

legislation has been secured we will be

handicapped by the fact that drug users in

New York can send prescriptions across the

river to New Jersey, or elsewhere, and have

them filled with little inconvenience. The

law provides that all orders for the wholesale

purchase of drugs must be written on serially

numbered, duplicated blanks furnished by the

Commissioner of Health. This will keep track

of all supplies of drugs purchased in New York,

but druggists, or persons posing as druggists,

will still be able to order from Philadelphia,

or elsewhere on their regular letterhead paper

or on fake letterhead paper. The need of

national legislation is obvious."



Mr. Towns has prepared an act which he hopes to

have passed by Congress imposing a tax upon and

regulating the importation, production,

manufacture and distribution of habit-forming

drugs. Under the present Federal law, he said

yesterday, the government asks no question

concerning the disposition which is made of

crude drugs imported into the country, but

simply taxes them as they come in. His bill

proposes that a close record be kept of every

ounce of habit-forming drug that enters the

country until it is finally consumed under

orders from a reputable physician. There should

also be legal provision, he said yesterday,

to prevent the filling of prescriptions for

drugs issued by any physician not a resident

of the State in which the prescription is filled,

so as to overcome the present interstate laxity.

In setting an example in the matter for other

States to follow, it was suggested it would be

a good idea for the New York State Medical

Society to prepare official prescription blanks

exclusively for drugs and to have them

copyrighted so that similar blanks could not

be printed for illicit use.



When asked what he considered the principal

cause of the widespread use of drugs, Mr.

Towns said:



"In the six thousand cases I have studied,

I have found that in every case in which the

victim was a youth he had smoked cigarettes

long before he began to take drugs." Effective

universal anti-drug legislation, he said,

would reduce lunacy and criminality about

40 per cent.


0 -1 0 0
4192 Bill Lash
Charles B. Towns (2 of 2) Charles B. Towns (2 of 2) 3/22/2007 8:45:00 AM


The New York Times, April 29,1917

WAR IS INCREASING THE DRUG-CONSUMING HABIT

Hospitals Develop Craving, Says Charles B.

Towns, Who Urges Federal Action



No human intensity can compare with that of

the drug user for his drug. Unrelieved, he

will let nothing stand between him and it;

neither hunger, nakedness, starvation, arson,

theft, nor murder will keep him from the

substance he craves. This is the opinion of

Charles B. Towns of New York City, of whom

Dr. Richard C. Cabot of Boston does not

hesitate to say that he "knows, more about

the alleviation and cure of drug addictions

than any doctor I have ever seen." The man

who first indorsed Mr. Towns and urged Dr.

Cabot, to study his specific treatment for the

drug-taker, was Dr. Alexander Lambert of

Bellevue Hospital, Professor of Clinical

Medicine at the Cornell University Medical

College.



And it is also the opinion of Mr. Towns that

the war in Europe has resulted in a tremendous

and unnecessary increase in the use of habit-

forming drugs, and that the great need in our

country at the moment is that Congress empower

the President to appoint a committee of able

men to investigate this whole matter in all

its phases and make such appropriation as may

be required to protect our soldiers from the

insidious evil that is doing its work abroad.



Mr. Towns is going to Washington in a few days

with this object in view. He hopes to bring

forcefully to the attention of President Wilson

certain facts concerning the growth of the drug

habit among the troops in Europe, together with

the necessity that this country take up this

whole subject by commission, because it is so

far-reaching, involves so much detail, and

affects so many and such varied interests that

it would be impossible at this time to introduce

in Congress legislation that would meet the case

as it should be met.



"I presume you have read in the papers," said

Mr. Towns, "the account of the arrest of some

illicit traffickers in habit-forming drugs in

which an enormous quantity--- $500,000 worth,

it is reported--- of such drugs was found and

it was also stated that this organization had

representatives in foreign countries and was

carrying on a wholesale business in such drugs.

This is of great interest and confirms my

position, namely, that unless this problem is

taken up internationally it will be impossible

to reach such things, because, the present

Federal and State laws on the subject are

wholly inadequate."



Before any legislation is proposed, Mr. Towns

believes the subject should be investigated by

the Federal Government and that its findings

should be made public and studied as a prelimi-

nary to the enactment of any law or amendment

to the present law.



"With the united wisdom of Congress applied to

the matter,'' he said a few days ago, "there

can be no doubt that such an investigation as

I have in mind would lay the foundation for

Federal legislation that would once and for

all solve this monstrous problem. Such action

of Congress would mean not only a solution of

this subject as far as the Federal Government

is concerned; it would mean also a solution

for the States. And it would, mind you, establish

a legislative, medical, and sociological

precedent that would give this country for

the first time the primacy it ought to have

in asking other countries to join with us once

and for all in terminating this evil--an evil

which has now become not merely a series of

isolated national problems, but a united world

problem.



"I have recently had a patient in this hospital

who had been going through two kinds of battle

in France. He won the Victoria Cross. But he

also acquired the drug habit. The army hospital

made a drug taker out of him. It has probably

done the same for half a million other brave

men.



"Before enlisting in the present war he in South

Africa, was awarded a South African Service

Medal, and was honorably discharged. He went

to France in August, 1914, and was in his first

engagement on Aug. 25, 26, 27, and 28 when he

was 'gassed.'



"He told me that the physical condition produced

by gas was similar to pneumonia in several

respects. One being a contraction of the chest

which makes it impossible for the patient to

lie down. The patients, himself included, were

carried into the hospital, set up against a

wall, and immediately placed under the influence

of morphine. He said it had been found that

morphine was the only thing that would relieve

a sufferer from the effects of gas.



"As soon as the patients were able to help

themselves and to use a hypodermic a mixture

of this morphine solution was put on a table

within their reach, and they were allowed to

use it as often as they felt inclined.



"Now, this soldier was not aware that he was

becoming a morphine addict, but in those three

months he became one. The treatment followed

in his case was the usual one, and, so far as

his observations went, each of the gas victims

who entered the hospital for treatment left

it a confirmed drug user.



"He returned to the front and took part in

the Hill 60 engagement, where his battalion

was wiped out---the Eleventh Battalion of the

Black Watch. He stood for an hour and a quarter

at roll call, and was the only man who answered

to his name. But he was wounded and went again

to the hospital. He told them that he was up

against the morphine habit, and they gave him

what morphine he needed while there.



"He left that hospital and joined the Royal

Engineers. was again wounded, again went to

the hospital for three weeks in March, 1915,

and again was supplied with the drug during

that time. Then he was sent to the Somme front,

where it was trench fighting. But he was still

able to get the drug in any quantity from

civilians. As he put it to me: 'Thousands and

thousands of dollars' worth of drugs are being

sold by the women who are following the army.



"It is the firm conviction of this man that all

those who have been through the war from the

first and have been 'gassed' are takers of the

drug.



"On July 27, 1915, his officers had ordered the

blowing up of a trench. My friend started with

a crew of eleven men to cross 275 feet of

tunnel toward the enemy, when, after reaching

half the distance, shells from the Austrian

guns fell short and blew the tunnelers to

pieces. Where had been a tunnel was now only

a hole.



"My friend picked himself up and found that his

leg was sprained and his back hurt. There was

one fellow whose leg was blown off. My friend

carried him over to their trenches so looked

back and saw another companion trying to get

up. So he carried him in. He carried back the

whole eleven, and dropped when the job was

finished.



"When he knew anything again he was back in the

hospital--the same hospital at which he had

remained previously for nearly three months.



"He informs me that the hospital records show

that while he was in them morphine was admini-

stered to him regularly. This will appear

on the charts, but not the quantity. He has

seen morphine administered to twenty men at

one time from the same hypodermic; in fact,

the nurses never refused morphine to any one

who asked for it.



"After he arrived in this country he went to

Boston and the British Consul there arranged

for him to go to Bermuda with the nurse. He

stayed there about two weeks, but his cough

got no better and he came back. He then went

into the Maine woods, where he tried to rid

himself of the drug habit, but found he could

not. The open air did cure his cough, and he

returned to Boston determined to conquer his

addiction to drugs. A physician prescribed

for him for four weeks, and he was taking as

much morphine at the end of that time as he

had been at the beginning.



"This man told me that he was very discouraged,

and had made up his mind to shoot himself. He

talked the matter over with his wife, and they

came to New York and saw me. He had only $71

left when he reached New York. I gave him the

best room in the house, feeling that I owed it

to the boys over there in Europe to do something.

He is cured.



"Now the basic way for the United States or

any other country to deal with this question,"

Mr. Towns asserted, "to go at once and directly

to the very root of the whole business, would

be to restrict all use of opium to its crude

form and to its forms as laudanum and paregoric.

This would cut off all pecuniary interest in

it, save for supplying it for legitimate medical

needs in the crude form, and in its least

harmful forms of laudanum and paregoric. Opium

is produced only in a few countries--practically

none in our own country--and it is only the

manufacture of its alkaloids that requires such

large outlay of capital in laboratory equipment.



"Where an opiate is indicated there are very

few instances in which the required results

could not be had from the administration of

the crude product. Crude opium is the least

harmful form of opium that can be taken for it

contains all of the alkaloids and may be taken

either by the mouth or in suppositories. If

the traffic in and sale of this drug was

reduced to traffic and sale of crude opium

it would not inconvenience the medical

profession in its legitimate use of the drug

in any way whatsoever find it would Immediately

stop this large illicit traffic that has grown

out of the habit-forming drug situation.



"No possible good will come out of attempting

merely to forbid the importation, manufacture

or sale of heroin. The chemists are very clever

and they would give us in another day some

preparation of opium under some other trade

name. And if it was not an actual preparation

of opium they would claim that it was a synthetic

one. The only way to meet such a habit-forming

drug condition is, I repeat, to restrict the

manufacture, sale, prescribing and administering

of opiates to the crude opium, to laudanum, and

to paregoric, and then to hold the physician

to a strict accounting of all of these he

personally prescribes or administers. There

are no physical conditions in which heroin or

any other narcotic is indicated but what could

be met by these. We can dispense even with

morphine and all of the opium alkaloids.



"I can go back to the time in the South when

there was an old rosewood medicine chest with

a ball of opium and a vial of paregoric, and

these easily met every possible need where

opiates were considered necessary to alleviate

pain. The medical profession would not be

inconvenienced in the slightest degree by such

a restriction, and it would at once eliminate

every unfavorable hazard that has grown out of

the use of habit-forming drugs for medical

purposes.



"Stopping importation is a farce, unless at

the same time there is a rigid Governmental

control in those countries that produce or

import the drug. The only obstacle to an

international understanding is that the

producing countries know very well that

Government regulation would materially

lessen the sale of the drug. Within the

borders of our own country such a system

would simplify rather than complicate present

conditions. We have today along our frontier

find in our parts inspectors trying to stop

the illicit traffic in opium, and the money

thus spent by our Government would be more

than sufficient to handle and distribute all

of the drug that is needed for legitimate

purposes.



"Any druggist could of course continue to buy

all that he wished, but he would have to

account for what he bought. The drug would

serve only its legitimate purpose, because the

druggist could sell it only on prescription.

This would at once eliminate the gravest

feature of the case, the indiscriminate sale

of proprietary and patent medicines containing

small quantities of opium. The physician would

thus have to shoulder the entire responsibility

for the use of any habit-forming drug.



"I must hammer this point once more: With

the Government as the first distributor and

the physician as the last, the whole condition

of affairs would assume a brighter aspect,

for it would be a simple matter to get from

the physician a proper accounting for what

he had dispensed. Thus the new crop of users

would be small, and less than 10 per cent. of

the opium at present brought into this country

would be sufficient to meet every legitimate

need."


0 -1 0 0
4193 Tom Hickcox
Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s grave Henrietta Seiberling''s grave 3/24/2007 1:09:00 PM


At 14:52 3/21/2007 , Bob S. wrote:

>An archivist friend of mine, who lives in

>southern Indiana, would like to learn where

>Henrietta Seiberling is buried. Best

>information leads me to believe that her plot

>is in Kentucky and that her gravestone is

>inscribed "Let go and let God."



She was from Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, which

just so happens is the home of my daughter,

and she is buried there according to

"A Narrative Timeline of A.A. History."

Go here and use the search function:



<http://silkworth.net/timelines/AA_Timeline_2004-04-01_Public04.pdf>



I will mention it to her and see if she can

do a phone call or two. I plan a visit

there in May and, if we find the grave, can

take some pics of it.



Lawrenceburg is just south of Frankfort and

a few miles west of Lexington in, I believe,

Anderson County.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4194 Glenn Chesnut
Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety 3/27/2007 11:54:00 AM


New book out:



Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety,

March 2007, ISBN 0-595-42334-5, xvi + 135 pp.,

$14.95.



http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html



(and http://hindsfoot.org/index.html )



Contains historical material on AA practices,

how newcomers were sponsored, and the way AA

meetings and committees were run and organized

in Pennsylvania (on the East Coast of the

United States) in the 1970-2000 period.


0 -1 0 0
4195 terry144434
What was the "ordinary psychological approach"? What was the "ordinary psychological approach"? 3/26/2007 8:10:00 PM


In the Doctors opinion, it says, "Many types

do not respond to the ordinary psychological

approach."



Can anyone clarify what this approach/treatment

may have been?



Many thanks



Terry



- - - -



NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:



The standard work on this topic is the extremely

thorough and detailed book by William White,

"The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery

in America."



Other members of this group may have details

on the specific things that Dr. Silkworth had

been trying before AA came along.



Glenn C. (South Bend)


0 -1 0 0
4196 ckbudnick
A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" 3/25/2007 10:17:00 PM


Is anyone familiar with the origin of the

following writing? One of my friend's first

sponsors received a copy of it in 1964 on

his 3rd anniversary. I have typed the text

and it is as follows:



AA



AND THE



HIGHER POWER



God In His wisdom, selected this group of men

and women to be the purveyors of his goodness.

In selecting them, through whom to bring about

this phenomenon, He went not to the proud, the

mighty, the famous, or the brilliant; He went

to the humble, the sick, the unfortunate; He

went right to the drunkard, the so-called

weakling of the world.



Well might He have said to us:



"Unto your weak and feeble hands, I have

entrusted a power beyond estimate. To you

has been given that which has been denied

the most learned of your fellows. Not to

scientists or statesmen, not to wives or

mothers, not even to My priests or ministers,

have I given this gift of healing other

alcoholics which I entrust to you.



"It must be used unselfishly; it carries with

it grave responsibility. No day can be too

long; no demands upon your time can be too

urgent; no case too pitiful; no task to hard;

no effort too great. It must be used with

tolerance, for I have restricted its

application to no race, no creed, and no

denomination. Personal criticism you must

expect; lack of appreciation will be common;

ridicule will be your lot; your motives will

be misjudged. You must be prepared for

adversity, for what men call adversity is

the ladder you must use to ascend the rungs

toward spiritual perfection, and, remember –

in the exercise of this power, I shall not

exact of you beyond your capabilities.



"You are not selected because of your

exceptional talents, and be careful, always,

if success attends your efforts, not to

ascribe to personal superiority that to which

you can lay claim only by virtue of My gift.

If I had wanted learned men to accomplish this

mission, the power would have been entrusted

to the physician and the scientist. If I

had wanted eloquent men, there would have

been many anxious for the assignment, for

talk is the easiest used of all talents with

which I have endowed mankind. If I had wanted

scholarly men, the world is filled with better

qualified men than you, who would be available.

You were selected because you have been the

outcasts of the world and your long experience

as drunkards has made or should make you humbly

alert to the cries of distress that come from

the lonely hearts of alcoholics everywhere.



"Keep ever in mind the admission you made

on the day of your profession in A.A., namely

that you are powerless and that it was only

with your willingness to turn your life and

will unto My keeping that relief came to you."


0 -1 0 0
4197 Tom Hickcox
Charles B. Towns'' professional degree Charles B. Towns'' professional degree 3/24/2007 4:32:00 PM


Any idea what Towns' Ph.D. was in and where

he earned it?



I notice in the articles they refer to him

as Mr. and physicians as Dr.



The academics would howl!



If memory serves me well, Silkworth was an M.D.

and a neurologist, and Thibault an M.D. and

psychiatrist, psychiatry and neurology at

the time overlapping quite more than today.



Tommy


0 -1 0 0
4198 Glenn Chesnut
Photo of Henrietta Seiberling''s grave Photo of Henrietta Seiberling''s grave 4/2/2007 3:24:00 PM


Photos of Henrietta Seiberling's grave (and

that of her parents) posted at

http://hindsfoot.org/photos1.html



Sent in by Charles K., A.A.

archivist from California

cdknapp@pacbell.net (cdknapp at pacbell.net)



Subject: Re: Henrietta Seiberling's grave



I am not sure of the exact location of the

cemetery, but here is a photo of her tombstone

and her parents. She is buried in her family

plot (Beckler).



I was driven to the cemetery when I attended

a National Archives Workshop a few years ago.



Hope this helps

Charles from California



Since we can't put attachments on

AAHistoryLovers messages, Charles' photos are

posted in the A.A. Historical Materials Part 3

section at http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html

on the http://hindsfoot.org/ website)


0 -1 0 0
4199 PR_Magoo
Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" 3/27/2007 4:48:00 PM


The full text of Judge John Touhy's talk is

given by Jim Blair in Message 251:



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/251



It was at given the Fourth Anniversary of the

Chicago Group on October 5, 1943.


0 -1 0 0
4200 ricktompkins@comcast.net
Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" 3/27/2007 10:43:00 PM


Your quote comes from a Chicago Central Office

(the Area 19 Service Office) titled AA -- God's

Instrument, published since 1953. Many excerpts

are taken from that pamphlet, the least of

which was Bright Star Press of East Moline,

Illinois in the late 1950s, who began printing

wallet cards called "Why We Were Chosen."



The text is from a prepared talk by AA member

John T. of Chicago, a Circuit Cout Judge

(later an Illinois Appellate Court Judge) at

the Chicago Group's fourth anniversary in 1943.



Chicago Archives has the pamphlet's draft that

is actually about half of his entire scripted

talk (also in the Archives). Many conference

taping compamies can provide you with the

wallet cards---seems like dozens still sell

"Why We Were Chosen." The Judge would be

amused!



Rick, Illinois


0 -1 0 0
4201 Mark W.
Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" 3/28/2007 7:22:00 PM


I found what might be your answer by Googling

"We Are Chosen" without the quotes. It came

up in the first result at, of all places, the

Orange Papers.



Accordingly, it says that this came from an

address given by Judge John T. at the 4th

Anniversary of the Chicago Group on October 5,

1943.



You can see it here;



http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Why_We_Were_Chosen.html



If you don't know, the author of the Orange

Papers is not particularly enamored with AA :)

(I'm trying to say it nicely... he's actually

quite vitriolic towards AA)



Mark



______________________________



We also received replies on this topic from

a number of other members of the group, all

referring us to the talk by Judge John Touhy:



"Diz Titcher" <diz49@earthlink.net> (diz49 at earthlink.net)



"Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@charter.net> (bajohanson at charter.net)



Tim Baer <TBaerMojo@aol.com> (TBaerMojo at aol.com)



"Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com> (mitchell_k_archivist at

yahoo.com)



"Mike Brewer" <tuswecaoyate@yahoo.com> (tuswecaoyate at yahoo.com)



"tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com> (tomper99 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4202 iidog@prodigy.net
Camel pins? Camel pins? 4/2/2007 6:56:00 AM


Can anyone tell me the history of the camel

and coffee pins? I know they were wore on the

jacket lapels.



Thank you.

Jane B.


0 -1 0 0
4203 Fiona Dodd
Re: Camel pins? Camel pins? 4/2/2007 4:31:00 PM


"The camel each day goes twice to its knees,

It picks up it's load with the greatest of ease,

It walks through the day with it's head held high,

And stays for that day completely dry."



The origin I have no idea but the symbolism resonates.



Fiona


0 -1 0 0
4204 zooballistic
Big Book Prayers Big Book Prayers 4/5/2007 1:39:00 PM


Can anyone help point me in the right direction

as to where I might find a listing of all the

prayers in the Big Book?


0 -1 0 0
4205 george cleveland
Re: Camel pins and camel poem Camel pins and camel poem 4/4/2007 11:46:00 AM


I always appreciated this verse. Can't find

the origin yet. This site expands the lines

a bit. AND warns us that after a winter of no

drinking, he or she will down 50 gallons at

a sitting!



George Cleveland



http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/africa/091599/091599jasminecamel.html



"The camel each day

Goes twice to his knees

He picks up his load

With the greatest of ease

He walks through the day

With his head held high

And stays dry for that day

Without even a sigh

Ships of the desert

are these great beasts called

join us for a ride,

Come one, come all!"



- - - -



Fiona Dodd wrote:

<fionadodd@eircom.net> (fionadodd at eircom.net)



"The camel each day goes twice to its knees,

It picks up its load with the greatest of ease,

It walks through the day with its head held high,

And stays for that day completely dry."



The origin I have no idea but the symbolism resonates.



Fiona


0 -1 0 0
4206 chesbayman56
Significant April Daates in A.A. History Significant April Daates in A.A. History 4/6/2007 1:06:00 PM


April

April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &

tell them of obsession & allergy.

April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best

Friend" by Jack Alexander.

April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest

desire to stop drinking".

April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service

Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.

April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.

April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big

Book.

April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used

to open AA meetings in Texas.

April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.

April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.

April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.

April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill

W's "spiritual sponsor."

April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking

for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack

Alexander.

April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the

office Bill and Hank P shared.

April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for

A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)

April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones

in New Bedford.

April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-

hitter in baseball history since 1909.

April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the

one millionth copy of the Big Book.

April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was

formed. First 'mail order' group.

April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was

formed in Seattle.

April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock

to the Alcoholic Foundation.

April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book

royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.

April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.

April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.

April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.

April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.

April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.

April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation

was broadcast on ABC TV.


0 -1 0 0
4207 Glenn Chesnut
Herbert Spencer quote actually Paley and Poole Herbert Spencer quote actually Paley and Poole 4/5/2007 3:13:00 PM


From: "Des Green" <puggreen2008@yahoo.co.uk>

(puggreen2008 at yahoo.co.uk)



Hi Glenn,



The quote in the BB attributed to Herbert

Spencer "Contempt prior to investigation" etc.



It has come up in my local group that there

is no evidence that he has actually ever said

this.



I have looked on the net but to no avail.



Can you shed some light on to this?



Best wishes to you & yours



Des



- - - -



Des,



Because of all the discussion and controversy

over this, I think it would be useful to give

a little summary (in one place) of what is

known now about the real authorship of this

famous quotation. It seems actually to be a

modification made by a man named Poole in

1879 of a line from a book written by William

Paley in 1794.



Glenn



- - - -



William Paley, A View of the Evidences of

Christianity (1794):

"The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that

more especially of men of rank and learning in

it, is resolved into a principle which, in my

judgment, will account for the inefficacy of

any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz.

contempt prior to examination."



Rev. William H. Poole, Anglo-Israel or, The

British Nation: The Lost Tribes of Israel (1879).

On the title page of this book, Rev. Poole

gives his own modified version of this, but

still attributes it to Paley:

"There is a principle which is a bar against

all information, which is proof against all

argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man

in everlasting ignorance. This principle is,

contempt prior to examination." --Dr. Paley



The Big Book (at the end of Appendix II on

"Spiritual Experience," on page 568 in the

fourth edition) has a version which is almost

identical to Poole's modified version of what

Paley had said:

"There is a principle which is a bar against

all information, which is proof against all

arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man

in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is

contempt prior to investigation." -- Herbert

Spencer



- - - -



To learn more, go to the AAHistoryLovers Message

Board at



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages



and do a search for Spencer. We've had a lot of

stuff on the Message Board about this quote.



Among other messages, Message 3546 at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3546

says:



Regarding the quote attributed to Herbert Spencer

in the Big Book, I've come across some research

on this quote by Michael St. George:



http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/



In what looks to be a very thorough investigation,

St. George concludes that the quote comes from

William Paley rather than Spencer.



- - - -



This excellent and thorough article by by Michael St. George



http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/



gives all of the background of the quotation. As

he demonstrates, it seems to be a modification

of something originally said by William Paley

in 1794, where the slightly altered version

given by the Rev. William H. Poole in 1879 is

almost identical to the wording in the Big Book.



The mistaken attribution of the quotation to

Herbert Spencer seems to have been common however

in a number of books written in the 1930's,

40's, and 50's. The mistake shows up for the

first time, as far as is now known, in 1931.

How Spencer ever got confused with Paley and

Poole is a complete mystery however. There is

some suggestion that it might have been

carelessness on the part of an editor who put

together a book of famous quotations, and

placed this quotation at the end of a number

of authentic quotations from Paley, without

indicating that this particular quotation

however came from a different source.



The Big Book version makes only four very

minor changes in the 1879 Poole version:

the word "argument" is put in the plural,

there is a dash instead of a period,

"that" is used instead of "this,"

and one comma is removed.


0 -1 0 0
4208 David Jones
Dr. Bob''s story of the A.A. Camel Dr. Bob''s story of the A.A. Camel 4/2/2007 4:45:00 PM


THE AA CAMEL



The camel each day goes twice to his knees.

He picks up his load with the greatest of ease.

He walks through the day with his head held high.

And stays for that day, completely dry.



"Dr. Bob would explain prayer by telling how

the camels in a caravan would kneel down in

the evening, and the men would unload their

burdens. In the morning, they would kneel

down again, and the men would put the burdens

back on. 'It's the same with prayer,' Dr. Bob

said. 'We get on our knees to unload at night.

And in the morning when we get on our knees

again, God gives us just the load we are able

to carry for that day.'" Dr. Bob and the Good

Oldtimers (1980), page 229



- - - -



Same passage on page 229 cited by



Tim <TBaerMojo@aol.com> (TBaerMojo at aol.com)



"David Jones" <davidjones@davidjones3.plus.com>

(davidjones at davidjones3.plus.com)



Floyd J <Azor521@aol.com> (Azor521 at aol.com)



- - - -



"John Wikelius" <nov85_gr@graceba.net>

(nov85_gr at graceba.net)



A camel can go 24 hours without a drink. I

believe the coffee is just the social concept

of fellowship of AA members.



- - - -



"jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



At the first convention I attended in the UK

in 1985 there was a stall selling trinkets,

circle and triangle jewellery, car bumper

stickers etc., including a lot of camel pins

with the figure 24 on them. I was less than a

year sober and I wondered why they had sold out

of all the other years of sobriety except 24!



Go well, Laurie A.



- - - -



Also from Dennis McD <denezmcd@aol.com>

(denezmcd at aol.com)



- - - -


0 -1 0 0
4209 Bob
Re: Camel pins and Camel Prayer Camel pins and Camel Prayer 4/3/2007 9:36:00 PM


The camel is one of the original alcoholics'

symbols of hope. If the camel can go one day

without a drink of water, alcoholics can go

one day without a drink of alcohol,

One Day at a Time.



Dr. Bob, co-founder of the alcoholics org, told

the camel story -- see Dr. Bob and the Good

Oldtimers (1980), page 229.



CAMEL PRAYER



"The tasks of the day can pass with ease

when a camel or I start on our knees.

One Master we serve, the camel and I,

and stay for that day completely dry."



___________________________





Fiona Dodd wrote <fionadodd@eircom.net>

(fionadodd at eircom.net):



"The camel each day goes twice to its knees,

It picks up its load with the greatest of ease,

It walks through the day with its head held high,

And stays for that day completely dry."


0 -1 0 0
4210 PR_Magoo
Camel pins in 1948 Grapevine Camel pins in 1948 Grapevine 4/4/2007 2:31:00 PM


I did a search of the Grapevine digital

archive and in the July 1948, Vol. 5, No. 2

issue, there is mention of a camel:



"Group to Give Oscar for Anniversaries"



"The recognition will take the form of a

Camel. The Camel is wholly emblematic of

the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e.,

to live for 24 hours without a drink."



That is pretty close, in concept, to what

you describe.



Phil



__________________________________



Jane B. wrote <IIdog@prodigy.net>

(iidog at prodigy.net):



> Can anyone tell me the history of the camel

> and coffee pins? I know they were wore on the

> jacket lapels.

>

> Thank you.

> Jane B.


0 -1 0 0
4211 mlb9292
Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 1:32:00 AM


I have been looking for information on the

cost of hospital treatment in 1934-35 at Towns

in New York and the hospitals in Akron. Can

you point me in the right direction or answer

my inquiry.



Also, I have been searching for some reference

to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns

Hospital. Can you give me any information or

steer me toward materials that may hold the

answer?



I have read that Towns was a pretty first

class and expensive private hospital



Thanks, God Bless

Ben H, Tulsa, OK


0 -1 0 0
4212 Bill Lash
RE: Big Book Prayers Big Book Prayers 4/5/2007 8:13:00 PM


Prayers in the Big Book Prior to the Stories



page:paragraph



12:6

For a brief moment, I had needed and wanted

God. There had been a humble willingness to

have Him with me - and He came.



13:2

There I humbly offered myself to God, as I

then understood Him, to do with me as He would.

I placed myself unreservedly under His care

and direction. I admitted for the first time

that of myself I was nothing; that without Him

I was lost.



13:4

I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking only

for direction and strength to meet my problems

as He would have me. Never was I to pray for

myself, except as my requests bore on my

usefulness to others.



63:2

God, I offer myself to thee - to build with me

and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me

of the bondage of self, that I may better do

Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that

victory over them may bear witness to those

I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy

Way of life. May I do Thy will always!



67:0

We asked God to help us show them the same

tolerance, pity, and patience that we would

cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person

offended we said to ourselves, "This is a

sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God

save me from being angry. Thy will be done."



68:3

We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our

attention to what He would have us be.



69:2

We ask God to mold our [sex] ideals and help

us to live up to them.



69:3

In meditation, we ask God what we should do

about each specific matter [sex harms].



70:2

We earnestly pray for the right [sex]

ideal, for guidance in each questionable

situation, for sanity and for the strength

to do the right thing.



75:3

We thank God from the bottom of our heart that

we know Him better.



75:3

Carefully reading the first five proposals we

ask if we have omitted anything, for we are

building an arch through which we shall walk

a free man at last. Is our work solid so far?

Are the stones properly in place? Have we

skimped on the cement put into the foundation?

Have we tried to make mortar without sand?



76:1

If we still cling to something we will not

let go [shortcomings], we ask God to help us

be willing.



76:2

My Creator, I am now willing that You should

have all of me, good and bad. I pray that You

now remove from me every single defect of

character which stands in the way of my

usefulness to You and my fellows. Grant me

strength, as I go out from here, to do Your

bidding. Amen.



76:3

We attempt to sweep away the debris which has

accumulated out of our effort to live on self-

will and run the show ourselves. If we haven't

the will to do this, we ask until it comes

[making amends].



79:1

Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go

to any lengths to find a spiritual experience,

we ask that we be given strength and direction

to do the right thing, no matter what the

personal consequences may be [making amends].



82:1

It may be that both [you & you significant

other] will decide that the way of good sense

and loving kindness is to let by-gones be

by-gones [no direct amends]. Each might pray

about it, having the other one's happiness

uppermost in mind.



83:1

So we clean house with the family, asking each

morning in meditation that our Creator show us

the way of patience, tolerance, kindness and

love.



84:2

When these crop up [selfishness, dishonesty,

resentment and fear], we ask God at once to

remove them.



85:1

How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine)

be done.



86:1

After making our (nightly) review we ask God's

forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures

should be taken.



86:2

Before we begin (meditation), we ask God to

direct our thinking, especially asking that

it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or

self-seeking motives.



86:3 [Facing indecision] Here we ask God for

inspiration, an intuitive thought or a

decision. We relax and take it easy. We don't

struggle.



87:1

We usually conclude the period of meditation

with a prayer that we be shown all through the

day what our next step is to be, that we be

given whatever we need to take care of such

problems. We ask especially for freedom from

self-will, and are careful to make no request

for ourselves only. We may ask for ourselves,

however, if others will be helped. We are

careful never to pray for our own selfish ends.



87:3

As we go through the day we pause, when agitated

or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or

action. We constantly remind ourselves we are

no longer running the show, humbly saying to

ourselves may times each day, "Thy will be

done."



158:2

On the third day the lawyer gave his life to

the care and direction of his Creator, and

said he was perfectly willing to do anything

necessary.



164:2

Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can

do each day for the man who is still sick.


0 -1 0 0
4213 Diz Titcher
Big Book Prayers: the classic old timers'' answer Big Book Prayers: the classic old timers'' answer 4/5/2007 5:26:00 PM


From Diz Ticher, Mitchell K., and Shakey Mike



- - - -



The question was asked by <zoolofttheband@aol.com>

(zoolofttheband at aol.com):



Can anyone help point me in the right direction

as to where I might find a listing of all the

prayers in the Big Book?



- - - -



Answer <diz49@earthlink.net>

(diz49 at earthlink.net)



Look for them yourself, then you will not

forget them.



Diz Titcher



- - - -



From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)



You can find them between the front page and

the last page of the big book.



Shakey



- - - -



From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com)



Do I win a prize? I did an Internet search by typing

in "prayers in the big book" and came up with many

different answers. My favorite appears to be an entry

by our very own Barefoot Bill which can be found at

(scroll down the page to find the prayers)

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaworkstep1011.html



There are dozens of search engines available, most of

them do the trick quite well all on their own or you

can used dog pile or copernic or other meta engines

which search multiple search engines. Most, if not all

are free and aid in looking for something.



The Internet is such a wonder full venue to find just

about anything. All you have to do is seek. I remember

reading somewhere that ... seek and ye shall find. For

me, seeking isn't asking someone else to find it for

me.


0 -1 0 0
4214 Azor521@aol.com
Big Book Prayers on Silkworth.net Big Book Prayers on Silkworth.net 4/5/2007 1:38:00 PM


You might find what you want at this site:



http://silkworth.net/aa/prayer.html



- - - -



The same webpage was also recommended by:



Susan Banker NYC <sbanker914@aol.com >

(sbanker914 at aol.com)



"davidrstack" <davidrstack@bellsouth.net>

(davidrstack at bellsouth.net)



jesse gilliam <mr_clean1991@yahoo.com>

(mr_clean1991 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4215 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Re: Big Book Prayers Big Book Prayers 4/5/2007 3:31:00 PM


Prayers From The Big Book



"I EARNESTLY ADVISE EVERY ALCOHOLIC TO READ

THIS BOOK THROUGH, AND THOUGH PERHAPS HE CAME

TO SCOFF, HE MAY REMAIN TO PRAY."

William D. Silkworth, MD - Pg. xxx



"GOD IS EVERYTHING OR HE IS NOTHING.

GOD EITHER IS OR HE ISN'T. WHAT WAS OUR

CHOICE TO BE?" Pg. 53



Pg. 59 We asked His protection and care

with complete abandon.



THIRD STEP



Pg. 63 - God, I offer myself to Thee - to

build with me and do with me as Thou wilt.

Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I

may better do Thy will. Take away my

difficulties, that victory over them may bear

witness to those I would help of Thy Power,

Thy Love and Thy Way of Life. May I do Thy

will always!



FOURTH STEP



PG 67 RESENTMENT - We asked God to help us

show them the same tolerance, pity, and

patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick

friend. When a person offended we said

to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I

be helpful to him? God save me from being

angry. Thy will be done."



Pg. 68 FEAR - We ask Him to remove our

fear and direct our attention to what He would

have us be.



Pg. 69 SEX - We asked God to mold our ideals

and help us live up to them.



Pg. 69 SEX - In meditation, we ask God what

we do about each specific matter.



Pg. 70 SEX - To sum up about sex: We pray

for the right ideal, for guidance in each

questionable situation, for sanity and for

strength to do the right thing.



FIFTH STEP



Pg. 75 We thank God from the bottom of our

heart that we know Him better.



Pg. 75 we ask if we have omitted anything,



SIXTH STEP



Pg. 76 If we still cling to something we will

not let go, we ask God to help us be willing.



SEVENTH STEP



Pg. 76 My Creator, I am now willing that

You should have all of me, good and bad. I

pray that You now remove from me every single

defect of character which stands in the

way of my usefulness to you and my fellows.

Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to

do Your bidding. Amen



EIGHTH STEP



Pg. 76 If we haven't the will to do this,

we ask until it comes.



NINETH STEP



Pg. 79 LEGAL MATTERS - We ask that we be

given strength and direction to do the

right thing, no matter what the personal

consequences might be.



Pg. 80 OTHERS EFFECTED - If we have obtained

permission, have consulted with others, asked

God to help.



Pg. 82 INFIDELITY - Each might pray about it,

having the other one's happiness uppermost in

mind.



Pg. 83 FAMILY - So we clean house with the

family, asking each morning in meditation

that our Creator show us the way of

patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.



TENTH STEP



Pg. 84 Continue to watch for

selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and

fear. When these crop up, we ask God at

once to remove them.



Pg. 85 Everyday is a day when we must

carry the vision of God's will into all

our activities. "How can I best serve

Thee--Thy will (not mine) be done".



ELEVENTH STEP



Pg. 86 NIGHT After mediation on the day just

completed, "We ask God's forgiveness and

inquire what corrective measures should be

taken."



Pg. 86 MORNING Before we begin our day,

"we ask God to direct our thinking, especially

asking that it be divorced from self-pity,

dishonest or self-seeking motives."



Pg. 86 MORNING In thinking about our

day, "We ask God for inspiration, an intuitive

thought or decision".



Pg. 87 MORNING We usually conclude the

period of mediation with a prayer that

we be shown all through the day what our

next step is to be, that we be given whatever

we need to take care of such problems.

We especially ask for freedom from self-will,

and are careful to make no requests for

ourselves only We may ask for ourselves,

however, if others will be helped. We are

careful never to pray for our own selfish ends.



Pg. 87 - 88 ALL DAY As we go through the

day we pause, when agitated or doubtful,

and ask for the right thought or action.



TWELFTH STEP



Pg. 164 Ask Him in your morning

meditation what you can do each day for

the man who is still sick. The answers

will come IF your own house is in order.



Pg. 102

Your job now is to be at the place where

you may be of maximum helpfulness to others,

so never hesitate to go anywhere if you

can be helpful. You should not hesitate

to visit the most sordid spot on earth on

such an errand. Keep on the firing line

of life with these motives and God

will keep you unharmed.


0 -1 0 0
4216 lester112985
Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 1:26:00 PM


Bill Wilson's discharge slip on page 104

in Pass It On states $125.00 for 7 days of

treatment.



Happy 24


0 -1 0 0
4217 george brown
Re: Big Book Prayers Big Book Prayers 4/6/2007 4:25:00 PM


From George Brown, mrjamesc1989, and Jay Lawyer



- - - -



From: george brown <gbaa487@yahoo.com>

(gbaa487 at yahoo.com)



Besides the obvious places, i.e. 3rd and 7th

step prayer, I've been told that wherever you

see the word "ask" that we are being instructed

to pray.



- - - -



From: mrjamesc1989@aol.com

(mrjamesc1989 at aol.com)



3rd step prayer page 63 and 7th step prayer page 76



- - - -



From: "Jay Lawyer" <ejlawyer@midtel.net>

(ejlawyer at midtel.net)



My own handout sheet for sponsees that

have done the work.


0 -1 0 0
4218 Jay Pees
RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 2:17:00 PM


In a lead I heard on tape of Bill, that his

brother-in-law, Dr Leonard Strong, paid for

his time in the hospital. I have seen nothing

in print on that.



- - - -



The question that was asked:



Also, I have been searching for some reference

to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns

Hospital. Can you give me any information or

steer me toward materials that may hold the

answer?



I have read that Towns was a pretty first

class and expensive private hospital



Thanks, God Bless

Ben H, Tulsa, OK


0 -1 0 0
4219 Tom White
Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 2:44:00 PM


Ben:



I think it was top of the heap in those days.

It would seem, I'm sure, unreally low in price

in terms of 2007 dollars.



But you have to use a multiple (easily obtained

from a govt. website) to get from 1935 dollars

to today's dollars. I use a rough measure:

a nickel candy bar in 1935 would be anywhere

from 50 cents to 95 cents today. And remember,

enormous gains in automation and other stuff

would have tended to keep the price low on

things like candy bars.



I think it's clear that even at the end Bill

(and Bob too) were hooked up with enough of

the establishment to have been still a distance

from skid row, but it was waiting.



Tom W. Odessa, TX


0 -1 0 0
4220 Baileygc23@aol.com
St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 4/7/2007 11:18:00 AM


In addition to quotation mistakenly attributed

to Spencer, Mel did call to my attention that

the St. Francis prayer is a modern prayer that

has been wrongly attributed to St. Francis.

Bill W. used it in the 12&12.



- - - -



From the moderator: Glenn C. (South Bend, IN)



Checking through our Past Messages, I can't

find a quick summary of what is currently

known about the authorship of the St. Francis

Prayer, so let me give one here.



It was not actually written by the medieval

saint. The earliest known version only dates

back to 1912. I have read that there were

early copies of this prayer printed on little

cards with a picture of St. Francis on the

other side of the card, which is where the

prayer got connected with that saint's name.



The Wikipedia account of what is known about

the prayer seems to be fairly accurate, so

I will just quote that:



- - - -



Prayer of Saint Francis in Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_St._Francis



The Prayer of Saint Francis is a Christian

prayer for Peace widely attributed to the

13th century saint Francis of Assisi, although

the prayer in its present form cannot be traced

back further than 1912, when it was printed in

France in French, in a small spiritual magazine

called La Clochette (The Little Bell), as an

anonymous prayer, as demonstrated by Dr

Christian Renoux in 2001.



The prayer has been known in USA since 1936

and Cardinal Francis Spellman distributed

billions of copies of the prayer during the

WW II. It was the beginning of its

international career.



The original version of the prayer is the

following :



Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe



Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.

Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l’amour.

Là où il y a l’offense, que je mette le pardon.

Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l’union.

Là où il y a l’erreur, que je mette la vérité.

Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.

Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l’espérance.

Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.

Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.

Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être

consolé qu’à consoler, à être compris qu’à

comprendre, à être aimé qu’à aimer, car c’est

en donnant qu’on reçoit, c’est en s’oubliant

qu’on trouve, c’est en pardonnant qu’on est

pardonné, c’est en mourant qu’on ressuscite

à l’éternelle vie.



La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285.



More than 100 different English versions of the text exist.



One well known translation is found in Chapter

11 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,"

a book published by AA Services (Alcoholics

Anonymous).



Lord, make me a channel of thy peace;

that where there is hatred, I may bring love;

that where there is wrong, I may bring the

spirit of forgiveness;

that where there is discord, I may bring harmony;

that where there is error, I may bring truth;

that where there is doubt, I may bring faith;

that where there is despair, I may bring hope;

that where there are shadows, I may bring light;

that where there is sadness, I may bring joy.

Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort

than to be comforted;

to understand, than to be understood;

to love, than to be loved.

For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.

It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.

It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life.

Amen.



The hymn version of Make Me A Channel of

Your Peace is an anthem of the Royal British

Legion and is usually sung every year at the

Service of Remembrance in November at the

Royal Albert Hall, London. It goes as

follows:



Make me a channel of your peace,

Where there is hatred let me bring your love,

Where there is injury your pardon Lord,

And where there's doubt true faith in you.

Lord grant that I may never seek,

So much to be consoled as to console,

To be understood; as to understand,

To be loved as to love with all my soul.

Make me a channel of your peace,

Where there is hatred let me bring your love,

Where there is injury your pardon Lord,

And where there's doubt true faith in you.


0 -1 0 0
4221 Tom Hickcox
Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 3:29:00 PM


At 12:26 4/7/2007 , lester112985 wrote:



>Bill Wilson's discharge slip on page 104

>in Pass It On states $125.00 for 7 days of

>treatment.



This site's inflation adjuster



<http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl>



says $1.00 in 1935 would be equivalent to $14.85

in 2007 dollars.



$125 x 14.85 = $1,856.25



This is in line with estimates of a Big Book's

price of around $50.00 today if the price

kept up with inflation.



Tommy


0 -1 0 0
4222 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital 4/7/2007 11:41:00 AM


Here is a source that shows how low wages were

in the United States in the 1930s.



In the 1930s, organized labor unions

( http://www.wisegeek.com/how-did-labor-unions-start.htm )

along with the Democratic politicians who

supported them, began to demand a standardized

minimum wage for all workers.



In 1935, President Franklin Roosevelt proposed

the first federal minimum wage under his

National Recovery Act. This act called for a

minimum wage of 25 cents per hour.



The Supreme Court struck down the National

Recovery Act as unconstitutional, rendering

the minimum wage unenforceable. In 1938,

the Fair Labor Standards Act reinstated the

same 25 cent federal minimum wage, along with

the legal mechanisms necessary to adjust it

over time.



At first this act only covered a few

transportation and agricultural industries,

but later amendments included service workers

and general laborers.


0 -1 0 0
4223 Mitchell K.
conference-approved conference-approved 4/8/2007 10:42:00 AM


Does anyone have a copy of the article

published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's

entitled "What is Conference Approved

Literature?"



I believe it was from the August 1976 edition.

I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a

box but can't find it at the moment. It appears

from meetings I have gone to,lately and from

some posts on the Internet, there has to be a

reminder of what exactly conference approval

really means.



Some AA members of today tout loudly and with

venom that conference approval means that ONLY

conference approved literature should be

read by AA members. No mention of so-called

non-approved materials should be made at

meetings and some even mention that they have

seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS

stating that ONLY conference-approved literature

is allowed at meetings.



Can someone post that article as it is an

official AAWS document defining policy on

the use, reading of and having literature other

than conference-approved at meetings.



Also, does anyone have any documentation from

AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated

in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does

oppose non-conference approved literature and

its use by AA members.


0 -1 0 0
4224 Arthur S
RE: RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/8/2007 10:20:00 PM


Charles B Towns and the Towns Hospital (which includes Dr William D

Silkworth) played a key role in a number of facets of AA history.



Source references:



AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS

AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS

AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B

BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen

BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan

BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography

EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B

GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson

GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing

LOH - The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc

LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz

NW - New Wine, by Mel B

PIO - Pass It On, AAWS

RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman

SD - Slaying the Dragon, by William L White

SM - AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service, AAWS

SW - Silkworth - the Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, by Dale Mitchell



Past dollar amounts below are converted to 2006 dollar values expressed as

"($nnn today)" using consumer price index (CPI) conversion factors offered,

via the internet, by Professor Robert C Sahr, Oregon State University at

Corvallis.



http://oregonstate.edu/cla/polisci/faculty/sahr/infcf16652007.pdf



Timeline:



1862:- Charles B. Towns was born on a small farm in central GA. (RAA 84)



1901: The Charles B Towns Hospital for Drug and Alcohol Addictions opened in

NYC. It was a private "drying out" hospital for the affluent. It initially

opened on 81st and 82nd Streets and later moved to 293 Central Park West.

Towns also later opened an annex (behind the Central Park facility) at 119 W

81st St to provide treatment for patients of "moderate means." Hospital fees

had to be paid in advance, or be guaranteed. Treatment fees for alcoholism

ran from $75 to $150 in the main hospital ($1,705 to $3,409 today) and $50

($1,136 today) in the annex. (SD 84-85, SW 125)



Note: there appears to be evidence that Bill W had four admissions to Towns

hospital although history material distributed by GSO says three admissions.



1930: Neurologist, Dr William Duncan Silkworth (nicknamed "Silky") after

losing his investments and savings in the stock market crash, started work

at Towns Hospital earning $40 a week ($482 today). Charles Towns did not see

eye to eye with Silkworth on alcoholism as an illness. (PIO 101, SW 30-31)

(NG 22 says Silkworth arrived in 1924)



1933: Autumn, Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at Macy's ($352 today) turned

to her brother-in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged, and paid for, Bill

W's first admission to Towns Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna

cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging and puking" aided by, among

other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was used to ease the

symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15,

310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174)



1934:



July (?), Bill W's second admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr

Leonard V Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first time. Silkworth

explained the obsession and allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking

again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill was unemployable, $50,000 in

debt ($757,576 today) suicidal and drinking around the clock. (AACOA 52, PIO

106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 50-55)



September 17, Bill W's third admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr

Leonard V Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill as hopeless and informed

Lois that Bill would likely have to be committed. Bill left the hospital a

deeply frightened man and sheer terror kept him sober. He found a little

work on Wall St, which began to restore his badly shattered confidence. (PIO

106-109, LR 87, AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 4-5, 54-55)



December 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had

his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial

help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197,

RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). (Note: the 7-day hospital

bill of $125 shown on PIO 104 would be $1,894 today).



December 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the

Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep depression

(his "deflation at depth") and had a profound spiritual experience after

crying out "If there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later

assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to what he had found.

In a lighter vein, Bill and others would later refer to this as his "white

flash" or "hot flash" experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148,

NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)



December 15, Ebby (or possibly Rowland Hazard) brought Bill W a copy of

William James' book The Varieties of Religious Experience. Bill was deeply

inspired by the book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity

or complete defeat in some vital area of life (what we today call "hitting

bottom"), 2) admission of defeat (what we today call "surrender") and 3)

appeal to a higher power for help (what we today call "acceptance"). The

book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in the Big Book. (AACOA

62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25,

PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28)



December 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He

and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at Calvary

House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG's

US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park Ave) and 21st St.

Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held) was at 61 Gramercy Park.

Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR

197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144)



December (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG alcoholics

met at Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission. Attendees included

Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, NG 314)



1935:



Early, Bill W worked with alcoholics at the Calvary Mission and Towns

Hospital, emphasizing his "hot flash" spiritual experience. Alcoholic Oxford

Group members began meeting at his home on Clinton St. Bill had no success

sobering up others. (AACOA vii, AABB, BW-FH 69, PIO 131-133)



April, Bill W had a talk with Dr Silkworth who advised him to stop preaching

about his "hot flash" experience and hit the alcoholics hard with the

medical view. Silkworth advised Bill to break down the strong egos of

alcoholics by telling them about the obsession that condemned them to drink

and allergy that condemned them to go mad or die. It would then be easier to

get them to accept the spiritual solution. (AACOA 13, 67-68, BW-RT 211, NG

25-26, PIO 133)



Winter, Henry (Hank) Parkhurst (Big Book Story - The Unbeliever) and John

Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo (Big Book Story - Our Southern Friend) sobered up

at Towns Hospital. Hank and Fitz provided a big help to Bill Wm over the

next few years. Hank started AA in NJ at his house and Fitz started AA in

Washington, DC (AACOA 16-17, 74, LR 101, BW-RT 225-226, NG 43-44) (PIO 191

says 1937)



1936: December, Charles Towns offered Bill W a very lucrative job at his

hospital as a lay alcoholism therapist. Bill wanted it. The question was

presented to the NY group meeting in Bill's home. They rejected it. This was

the emergence of the Traditions principle "God speaking in the group

conscience is to be our final authority." (AACOA 100-102, LR 197, BW-RT

232-234, NG 63-64, PIO 175-177)



1938: September, board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting between Bill W

and Eugene Exman (Religious Editor of Harper Brothers publishers). Exman

offered Bill a $1,500 advance ($21,429 today) on the rights to the book. The

Alcoholic Foundation Board urged acceptance of the offer. Instead, Hank P

and Bill formed Works Publishing Co. and sold stock at $25 par value ($357

today). 600 shares were issued: Hank and Bill received 200 shares each, 200

shares were sold to others. Later, 30 shares of preferred stock, at $100 par

value ($1,300 today) were sold as well. To mollify the board, it was decided

that the author's royalty (which would ordinarily be Bill's) could go to the

Alcoholic Foundation. (LR 197, BW-FH 116-119, SM S6, PIO 193-195, AACOA 157,

188) Encouraged by Dr Silkworth, Charles Towns loaned Hank and Bill $2,500

for the book. It was later increased to $4,000. ($57,143 today). (PIO 196,

SM S7, LOH 176, AACOA 13-14, 153-159)



1939: September 30, Liberty Magazine, headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a

piece titled Alcoholics and God by Morris Markey (who was influenced to

write the article by Charles Towns). It generated about 800 inquiries from

around the nation. Oursler (author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became

good friends with Bill W and later served as a Trustee and member of the

Grapevine editorial board. (AACOA 176-178, LOH 145, 180-183 BW-FH 127-129,

PIO 223-224)



1945: October 20, Dr William Duncan Silkworth was hired as director of

alcoholic treatment at the Knickerbocker Hospital in NYC. He worked at both

the Towns and Knickerbocker Hospitals until his death in 1951. Alcoholics

were referred to the "AA Ward" at Knickerbocker Hospital by the NY

Intergroup Association. (SW 83, AACOA 206)



1947: February 20, Charles B Towns died. (SD 86)



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Pees

Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 1:17 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town's

Hospital in 1934



In a lead I heard on tape of Bill, that his

brother-in-law, Dr Leonard Strong, paid for

his time in the hospital. I have seen nothing

in print on that.



- - - -



The question that was asked:



Also, I have been searching for some reference

to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns

Hospital. Can you give me any information or

steer me toward materials that may hold the

answer?



I have read that Towns was a pretty first

class and expensive private hospital



Thanks, God Bless

Ben H, Tulsa, OK







Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4225 oys.jerry5672
Camel Pins Camel Pins 4/9/2007 3:38:00 PM


I was recently doing some research on sobriety

lapel pins and talked to a employee at

Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were

formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She

put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or

Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He

shared with me that a man named Frank B. made

the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a

member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis

(Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were

made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe

was located in Minneapolis at the time. They

are now located in Crystal MN. and currently

have pins in stock. The oldest one I have

was my fathers and it has a screw on back and

those made today have a clutch back. They

are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with

24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an

inch in size. I purchased some of them a

number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to

$6.00.



Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/

Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis,

Minnesota, in the 1940's.



At this point in time again from my perception

I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold.

I would tend to believe that Frank designed

the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the

mold.



I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather

more information. Which means that "More

Will Be Revealed".



Jerry Oys

Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist


0 -1 0 0
4226 smithdewan
Date of White Light experience at Towns Date of White Light experience at Towns 4/9/2007 3:53:00 PM


Do we know the exact date of Bill's mystical

experience and how was it determined?



I have only seen Towns admittance and release

dates in print.



Thanks Jack S.



- - - -



From the moderator:



Message 3890 from chesbayman56@yahoo.com

(chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) gives these dates:



Dec 11, 1934 - Bill admitted to Towns Hosp 4th/last time

Dec 12, 1934 - Bill has Spiritual Experience at Towns Hospital.



But in messages which appeared later on,

the commemoration ceremony seems to have

been set on December 10th:



Message 3938 from mweemwow@yahoo.com

(mweemwow at yahoo.com)



Message 3920 from Robt Woodson

<Robt Woodson <wdywdsn@sbcglobal.net>

(wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net)


0 -1 0 0
4227 Li Lightfoot
Gay groups listed in schedules Gay groups listed in schedules 4/9/2007 6:15:00 PM


Hey Folks:



I am working on an article to be published

in the San Francisco Fellowship's newsletter

on the first Gay groups in A.A. We know that

there was a lot of controversy about listing

Gay and Lesbian Groups in the schedules and

that this was eventually overcome.



Does anyone know the details of this history

or know where I might find out about it?



Thanks,



Li Lightfoot

The Point Committee


0 -1 0 0
4228 ckbudnick
Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity 4/10/2007 11:47:00 PM


A friend gave me a copy of "The Search For

Serenity and How to Achieve It" by Lewis F.

Presnall (1959), published by the Utah

Alcoholism Foundation.



He says he used to see the book in the rooms

when he got sober 30 years ago. I was curious

if anyone has any additional information about

the author, the book or its place in AA history.



Thanks,



Chris B.

Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
4229 silkworthdotnet
Re: St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 4/12/2007 10:22:00 AM


Dr. Renoux' research on the St Francis of

Assisi prayer. The Original Text of this very

popular Prayer and the history of its origin:



The Origin of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis*

by Dr. Christian Renoux,

Associate Professor of the University of Orleans, France

Original Text of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis

Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe

Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.

Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour.

Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon.

Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union.

Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité.

Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.

Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance.

Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.

Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.

Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être

consolé qu'à consoler, à être compris qu'à

comprendre, à être aimé qu'à aimer, car c'est

en donnant qu'on reçoit, c'est en s'oubliant

qu'on trouve, c'est en pardonnant qu'on est

pardonné, c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite

à l'éternelle vie.



Source: La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285.



Origin of this Prayer



The first appearance of the Peace Prayer

occurred in France in 1912 in a small spiritual

magazine called La Clochette (The Little Bell).

It was published in Paris by a Catholic

association known as La Ligue de la Sainte-

Messe (The Holy Mass League), founded in 1901

by a French priest, Father Esther Bouquerel

(1855-1923). The prayer bore the title of

'Belle prière à faire pendant la messe'

(A Beautiful Prayer to Say During the Mass),

and was published anonymously. The author

could possibly have been Father Bouquerel

himself, but the identity of the author

remains a mystery.



The prayer was sent in French to Pope

Benedict XV in 1915 by the French Marquis

Stanislas de La Rochethulon. This was soon

followed by its 1916 appearance, in Italian,

in L'Osservatore Romano [the Vatican's daily

newspaper].



Around 1920, the prayer was printed by a

French Franciscan priest on the back of an

image of St. Francis with the title 'Prière

pour la paix' (Prayer for Peace) but without

being attributed to the saint. Between the

two world wars, the prayer circulated in Europe

and was translated into English. Its has been

attributed the first time to saint Francis in

1927 by a French Protestant Movement, Les

Chevaliers du Prince de la Paix (The Knights

of the Prince of Peace), founded by Étienne

Bach (1892-1986).



The first translation in English that we know

of appeared in 1936 in Living Courageously, a

book by Kirby Page (1890-1957), a Disciple of

Christ minister, pacifist, social evangelist,

writer and editor of The World Tomorrow (New

York City). Page clearly attributed the text

to St. Francis of Assisi. During World War II

and immediately after, this prayer for peace

began circulating widely as the Prayer of St.

Francis, specially through Francis Cardinal

Spellman's books, and over the years has

gained a worldwide popularity with people of

all faiths.



For more information : see the book by Dr.

Christian Renoux, La prière pour la paix

attribuée à saint François : une énigme à

résoudre, Paris, Editions franciscaines,

2001, 210 p. : 12.81 euros + shipping

(ISBN : 2-85020-096-4). -- Order From:

Éditions franciscaines, 9, rue Marie-Rose

F-75014 Paris.



Author's Note: Dr. Christian Renoux is

continuing his research on the propagation

of this prayer, and is looking for new

information about its publication in English

between 1925 and 1945, and in all other

languages between 1912 and today. If you

have such information, please contact him

at contacted at this email address.

---------------------------------

The Franciscan Archive wishes to thank Dr. Renoux for permission to publish

the Original Text of this very popular Prayer and the history of its origin.

---------------------------------

*From The Franciscan Archive



Yours in service,

Jim M.





Baileygc23@aol.com wrote:

In addition to quotation mistakenly attributed

to Spencer, Mel did call to my attention that

the St. Francis prayer is a modern prayer that

has been wrongly attributed to St. Francis.

Bill W. used it in the 12&12.



- - - -



From the moderator: Glenn C. (South Bend, IN)



Checking through our Past Messages, I can't

find a quick summary of what is currently

known about the authorship of the St. Francis

Prayer, so let me give one here.



It was not actually written by the medieval

saint. The earliest known version only dates

back to 1912. I have read that there were

early copies of this prayer printed on little

cards with a picture of St. Francis on the

other side of the card, which is where the

prayer got connected with that saint's name.



The Wikipedia account of what is known about

the prayer seems to be fairly accurate, so

I will just quote that:



- - - -



Prayer of Saint Francis in Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_St._Francis



The Prayer of Saint Francis is a Christian

prayer for Peace widely attributed to the

13th century saint Francis of Assisi, although

the prayer in its present form cannot be traced

back further than 1912, when it was printed in

France in French, in a small spiritual magazine

called La Clochette (The Little Bell), as an

anonymous prayer, as demonstrated by Dr

Christian Renoux in 2001.



The prayer has been known in USA since 1936

and Cardinal Francis Spellman distributed

billions of copies of the prayer during the

WW II. It was the beginning of its

international career.



The original version of the prayer is the

following :



Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe



Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.

Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l’amour.

Là où il y a l’offense, que je mette le pardon.

Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l’union.

Là où il y a l’erreur, que je mette la vérité.

Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.

Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l’espérance.

Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.

Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.

Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être

consolé qu’à consoler, à être compris qu’à

comprendre, à être aimé qu’à aimer, car c’est

en donnant qu’on reçoit, c’est en s’oubliant

qu’on trouve, c’est en pardonnant qu’on est

pardonné, c’est en mourant qu’on ressuscite

à l’éternelle vie.



La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285.



More than 100 different English versions of the text exist.



One well known translation is found in Chapter

11 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,"

a book published by AA Services (Alcoholics

Anonymous).



Lord, make me a channel of thy peace;

that where there is hatred, I may bring love;

that where there is wrong, I may bring the

spirit of forgiveness;

that where there is discord, I may bring harmony;

that where there is error, I may bring truth;

that where there is doubt, I may bring faith;

that where there is despair, I may bring hope;

that where there are shadows, I may bring light;

that where there is sadness, I may bring joy.

Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort

than to be comforted;

to understand, than to be understood;

to love, than to be loved.

For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.

It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.

It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life.

Amen.



The hymn version of Make Me A Channel of

Your Peace is an anthem of the Royal British

Legion and is usually sung every year at the

Service of Remembrance in November at the

Royal Albert Hall, London. It goes as

follows:



Make me a channel of your peace,

Where there is hatred let me bring your love,

Where there is injury your pardon Lord,

And where there's doubt true faith in you.

Lord grant that I may never seek,

So much to be consoled as to console,

To be understood; as to understand,

To be loved as to love with all my soul.

Make me a channel of your peace,

Where there is hatred let me bring your love,

Where there is injury your pardon Lord,

And where there's doubt true faith in you.


0 -1 0 0
4230 johnpublico
Re: Camel Pins Camel Pins 4/12/2007 9:38:00 AM


Hi Jerry,



Thanks for the great info about the Camel Pins.



After snooping around the internet for a bit,

I think the jewelry store is Hantgen's Jewelry.

They are still in Minneapolis, at the Crystal

Shopping Centre. (I think Crystal is a

neighborhood or town within the city limits,

like Fridley).



Phone number is (763) 537-7233.



Let us know what you find out and whether

they take mail orders (I'm in North Carolina).



John K.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com "oys.jerry5672"

<oys.jerry@...> wrote:

>

> I was recently doing some research on sobriety

> lapel pins and talked to a employee at

> Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were

> formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She

> put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or

> Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He

> shared with me that a man named Frank B. made

> the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a

> member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis

> (Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were

> made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe

> was located in Minneapolis at the time. They

> are now located in Crystal MN. and currently

> have pins in stock. The oldest one I have

> was my fathers and it has a screw on back and

> those made today have a clutch back. They

> are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with

> 24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an

> inch in size. I purchased some of them a

> number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to

> $6.00.

>

> Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/

> Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis,

> Minnesota, in the 1940's.

>

> At this point in time again from my perception

> I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold.

> I would tend to believe that Frank designed

> the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the

> mold.

>

> I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather

> more information. Which means that "More

> Will Be Revealed".

>

> Jerry Oys

> Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist

>


0 -1 0 0
4231 Des Green
Did Dr. Silkworth ever treat women alcoholics? Did Dr. Silkworth ever treat women alcoholics? 4/12/2007 4:53:00 AM


Greetings,



Are there any records that show lady alcoholics

being treated by Dr Silkworth, at Towns or

otherwise ?



Best wishes to all



Des


0 -1 0 0
4232 Arthur S
RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/12/2007 2:38:00 AM


The information you are looking for is

currently published in "The Group Handbook"

(cost $11.00 publication M-36 from GSO).

The handbook is sent to every new group that

registers with GSO. It contains two pages

titled "Conference-Approved Literature."

You can also check message 3369 for a past

AAHL posting that contains the information.



The key paragraph of interest regarding the

term "Conference-approved" states:



"The term has no relation to material not

published by G.S.O. It does not ["not" is

underlined] imply Conference disapproval of

other material about A.A. A great deal of

literature helpful to alcoholics is

published by others, and A.A. does not

try to tell any individual member what he

or she may or may not read."



There is a substantial amount of AA

literature that is not Conference-approved:



*Grapevine (and its non-English counterparts)

*Box 459

*Guidelines (the "yellow sheets")

*Markings (the GSO Archives newsletter)

*About AA (PI releases)

*Directories

*Advisory Actions of the General Service

Conference of AA (M-39)

*Final reports of the General Service

Conference Literature published by GSOs

other than the US/Canada and AAWS

*Final reports of the World Service Conference

*Memento booklets from International Conventions

*Literature catalogs and flyers (AAWS

and Grapevine)

*Non-English interpretations of books/pamphlets

*Various GSO publications called

"service pieces."

*Publications by Central Offices and Areas.



All the above are a valid part of "AA literature."



As an item of interest the term "Conference-

approved" would likely be better stated as

"Conference-committee-approved."



It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

of literature prior to voting on it. The

review is usually done by a committee of

several Delegates. The remainder of the

Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

for/against the literature based on the

recommendation of the committee (that's how

the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

about on-line meetings and the punctuation

changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

changes slipped past Conference review). While

all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

a fraction of them actually gets to read it

prior to voting.



How each group deals with Conference-approved

or non-Conference-approved literature is a

matter of group conscience (Tradition 2 is

the means to the ultimate authority) and is

not dictated by any Conference ("Our leaders

are but trusted servants they do not govern").

No Conference would presume to tell a group

what to do. Some Conference advisory actions

of interest that would attest to this:



1951 It was recommended that: In future years,

A.A. textbook literature should have Conference

approval. (Agenda Committee) Prior to the

vote on this subject, it was pointed out that

adoption of the suggestion would not preclude

the continued issuance of various printed

documents by non-Foundation sources. No

desire to review, edit or censor non-Foundation

material is implied. The objective is to provide,

in the future, a means of distinguishing

Foundation literature from that issued locally

or by non-A.A. interests.



1961: The Committee recommended that G.S.O.

explore the possibility of preparing a more

adequate description of Conference-approved

literature.



1964: Regarding pamphlets and literature other

than that which is Conference-approved being

displayed or sold at area and state conferences,

it was the sense of the meeting that we have

no authority in this area. It is to be noted

that all Conference-approved literature should

be made available at A.A. get-togethers.



1972: It be suggested that when a local A.A.

facility (central office, intergroup, group,

etc.) sells non-Conference-approved literature,

it be clearly designated as such.



The Conference has always voted to keep the

two types of literature separate and clearly

identified. It has never voted to ban

non-Conference-approved literature.



If you visit GSO in NY and go to the archives

exhibit area, you will see an entire wall of

book cases filled with literature that is not

Conference-approved but very relevant to

alcoholism and recovery. Visitors are

encouraged to use the reading area to review

them. My last visit was a few years ago but

I don't think anything has changed.



Cheers

Arthur



*************************************



AAHL Message 4223

"Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)



Does anyone have a copy of the article

published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's

entitled "What is Conference Approved

Literature?"



I believe it was from the August 1976 edition.

I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a

box but can't find it at the moment. It appears

from meetings I have gone to,lately and from

some posts on the Internet, there has to be a

reminder of what exactly conference approval

really means.



Some AA members of today tout loudly and with

venom that conference approval means that ONLY

conference approved literature should be

read by AA members. No mention of so-called

non-approved materials should be made at

meetings and some even mention that they have

seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS

stating that ONLY conference-approved literature

is allowed at meetings.



Can someone post that article as it is an

official AAWS document defining policy on

the use, reading of and having literature other

than conference-approved at meetings.



Also, does anyone have any documentation from

AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated

in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does

oppose non-conference approved literature and

its use by AA members.


0 -1 0 0
4233 Bill Lash
RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/12/2007 7:36:00 AM


WHAT DOES “CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE” MEAN?



Service Material From G.S.O.



"Conference-approved" – What It Means to You



The term “Conference-approved” describes

written or audiovisual material approved by

the Conference for publication by G.S.O.

This process assures that everything in such

literature is in accord with A.A. principles.

Conference-approved material always deals with

the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous

or with information about the A.A. Fellowship.



The term has no relation to material not

published by G.S.O. It does not imply

Conference disapproval of other material

about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful

to alcoholics is published by others, and

A.A. does not try to tell any individual

member what he or she may or may not read.



Conference approval assures us that a piece

of literature represents solid A.A. experience.

Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet

goes through a lengthy and painstaking process,

during which a variety of A.A.’s from all over

the United States and Canada read and express

opinions at every stage of production.



How To Tell What Is and What

Is Not Conference-approved



Look for the statement on books,

pamphlets and films:



"This is A.A. General Service

Conference-approved literature"







All “A.A. Literature” Is Not

Conference-approved



Central offices and intergroups do write and

distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not

Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the

needs of the local membership, they may be

legitimately classified as "A.A. literature."

There is no conflict between A.A. World

Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. – publishers of

Conference-approved literature), and central

offices or intergroups – rather they complement

each other. The Conference does not disapprove

of such material.



G.S.O. does develop some literature that does

not have to be approved by the Conference,

such as service material, Guidelines and

bulletins.



Available at Most A.A. Groups



Most local A.A. groups purchase and display a

representative sampling of Conference-approval

pamphlets, and usually carry a supply of

hardcover books. Conference-approved

literature may be available at central

offices and intergroups, or it may be ordered

directly from G.S.O. Groups normally offer

pamphlets free of charge, and the books

at cost.



Copyright



Conference-approved literature is copyrighted

with the Copyright Office, Library of Congress,

Washington, D.C., U.S.A. To insure the

continued integrity of A.A. literature, and

to make sure the A.A. recovery programs will

not be distorted or diluted, permission to

reprint must be obtained from A.A.W.S. in

writing.



However, A.A. newsletters, bulletins, or

meeting lists have blanket permission to use

the material, providing proper credit to insure

that the copyrights of A.A. literature are

protected.



The A.A. Preamble is copyrighted by The A.A.

Grapevine, Inc. (not by A.A. World Services).

Beneath it, these words should appear:

Reprinted with permission of the A.A.

Grapevine, Inc. The Steps and Traditions

should be followed by these words: Reprinted

with Permission of A.A. World Services, Inc.



********************************



AAHL Message 4223

"Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)



Does anyone have a copy of the article

published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's

entitled "What is Conference Approved

Literature?"



I believe it was from the August 1976 edition.

I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a

box but can't find it at the moment. It appears

from meetings I have gone to,lately and from

some posts on the Internet, there has to be a

reminder of what exactly conference approval

really means.



Some AA members of today tout loudly and with

venom that conference approval means that ONLY

conference approved literature should be

read by AA members. No mention of so-called

non-approved materials should be made at

meetings and some even mention that they have

seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS

stating that ONLY conference-approved literature

is allowed at meetings.



Can someone post that article as it is an

official AAWS document defining policy on

the use, reading of and having literature other

than conference-approved at meetings.



Also, does anyone have any documentation from

AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated

in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does

oppose non-conference approved literature and

its use by AA members.


0 -1 0 0
4234 Gary Becktell
Re: conference-approved conference-approved 4/12/2007 12:09:00 PM


From Gary Becktell, Jeff Your, James Blair, and Tom White



- - - -



From "Gary Becktell" <gk@kitcarson.net>

(gk at kitcarson.net)



Mitchell,



Below is a little of that article, including

the exact issue Volume & #. This is all I have:



GSO Box 4-5-9 1978

(Volume 23, No 4)



Any literature that pertains to the principles

of AA or is approved by a Group Conscience -

is perfectly acceptable to be read by any

AA member or in an AA meeting.



"WHAT CONFERENCED-APPROVED MEANS"



GSO Box 4-5-9 1978

(Volume 23, No 4)



AA's General Service Office said:



"It does not mean the Conference disapproves

of any other publications. Many local A.A.

central offices publish their own meeting

lists. A.A. as a whole does not oppose these,

any more than A.A. disapproves of the Bible

or any other publications from any source

that A.A.'s find useful.



What any A.A. member reads is no business of

G.S.O., or of the Conference, naturally."



- - - -



From: Jeff Your <jyour@jcu.edu>

(jyour at jcu.edu)



From GSO Box 4-5-9 (Volume 23, No 4)

"Any literature that pertains to the principles

of AA or is approved by a GROUP CONSCIENCE -

is perfectly acceptable to be read by any AA

member or in an AA meeting."



As cited at



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaconferenceapproved.html



- - - -



James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



There have been strong Conference Advisory

Actions on the display of non-conference

approved literature but of course they are

only suggestions :-)



Jim



- - - -



From: Tom White <tomwhite@cableone.net>

(tomwhite at cableone.net)



Mitchell:



I wouldn't go looking for authoritative GSO

"statements" on this subject, since the

literature read at meetings is the business

of the individual group and of no "governing"

body, of which there ain't supposed to be

any in AA. Hallelujah!



Tom W.


0 -1 0 0
4235 Arthur S
RE: Date of White Light experience at Towns Date of White Light experience at Towns 4/13/2007 9:34:00 AM


Bill W's sober date is December 11, 1934.

See "Pass It On" pg 104 for an image of his

discharge slip from Towns Hospital - it shows

an "admitted" date of 12/11/34 and "discharged"

date of 12/18/34.



December 11, 1934 is the date Bill W had

his last drink on the way to, and at,

Towns Hospital.



Bill's profound spiritual experience (as noted

in several sources) occurred after he was

visited by Ebby in Towns Hospital. Ebby's

visit could have occurred anywhere from the

day following Bill's admission to the hospital

up to 2 or 3 days after. I personally lean

toward December 14 as the date of Bill's

experience (although it's a close toss-up

with December 13 as the possible date).

Different written sources give different

inferences of a possible date. Specific dates

in AA history are not the easiest to determine

or reach consensus on (Dr Bob's sober date

being a prime example of that).



Following is (as best as I can reconstruct

it, from a variety of written sources) a

timeline of Bill W receiving a message of

recovery from Ebby T and the beginning of

his own carrying the message to other

alcoholics.



Source references:



AABB (Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book),

AACOA (AA Comes of Age),

AGAA (The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics

Anonymous, by Dick B)

BW-RT (Bill W by Robert Thomsen),

BW-FH (Bill W by Francis Hartigan),

BW-40 (Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography),

EBBY (Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by

Mel B),

GB (Getting Better Inside Alcoholics

Anonymous by Nan Robertson),

GTBT (Grateful to Have Been There by

Nell Wing),

LOH (The Language of the Heart),

LR (Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson),

NG (Not God, by Ernest Kurtz),

NW (New Wine, by Mel B),

PIO (Pass It On),

RAA (The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by

Bill Pittman),

SD (Slaying the Dragon, by William L White),

SM (AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts

for World Service),

SW (Silkworth - The Little Doctor Who Loved

Drunks, by Dale Mitchell).



Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the

Calvary Mission and working with the Oxford

Group, heard about Bill W’s problems with

drinking. He phoned Lois who invited him over

for dinner. (EBBY 66)



Nov (late), Ebby visited Bill W at 182 Clinton

St and shared his recovery experience "one

alcoholic talking to another.” (AACOA vii,

58-59) A few days later, Ebby returned with

Shep C. They both spoke to Bill about the

Oxford Group. Bill did not think too highly

of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited

several times, once even staying for dinner.

(AACOA vii, NG 17-18, 311, BW-FH 57-58,

NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192)



Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the

Calvary Mission on 23rd St. He showed up drunk

with a drinking companion found along the way

(Alec the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the

service wanting to speak. On the verge of being

ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate

of beans. Bill later joined the penitents and

drunkenly “testified” at the meeting. (AACOA

59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60,

NW 23, PIO 116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156-

159, EBBY 66-69)



Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to

Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four

bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got

financial help from his mother, Emily, for

the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA

152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31).



Dec 14 (possibly 13), Ebby visited Bill W at

Towns Hospital and told him about the Oxford

Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell

into a deep depression (his “deflation at

depth”) and had a profound spiritual experience

after crying out “If there be a God, will he

show himself.” Bill called Dr Silkworth to ask

if he was going crazy. Dr Silkworth later

assured Bill he was not crazy and told him

to hang on to what he had found. In a lighter

vein, Bill and others would later refer to this

as his “white flash” or “hot flash” experience.

(AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148,

NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111,

LOH 278-279)



Note: and it sometimes raises the hackles of

AA members, Bill W was subjected to something

called the “belladonna cure.” The regimen

primarily involved “purging and puking” aided

by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna,

a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms

of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85,

BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174).

What role the belladonna may have played in

Bill's experience is undetermined.



Dec 15 (possibly 14), Ebby (or possibly Rowland

H) brought Bill W a copy of William James'

book "The Varieties of Religious Experience."

Bill was deeply inspired by the book. It

revealed three key points for recovery:

1) calamity or complete defeat in some vital

area of life (hitting bottom), 2) admission

of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a

higher power for help (acceptance). The book

strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in

the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70,

SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313,

NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28)



Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began

working with drunks. He and Lois attended

Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C

at Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was

the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG’s

US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave

(now Park Ave) and 21st Street. Calvary House

(where OG meetings were usually held) was

at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was

located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16,

AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25,

PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144)



Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings,

Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at

Stewart’s Cafeteria near the Calvary

Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and

Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142,

NG 314)



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
4236 Glenn Chesnut
Non-conference-approved literature Non-conference-approved literature 4/13/2007 2:34:00 PM


Non-conference-approved literature:



A short (not at all complete) selection of

books on AA history drawn from Arthur Sheehan

(messages 3370 and 4235), Robert Stonebraker,

and others who have posted messages in the

AAHistoryLovers in recent months.



It is necessary to read works of this sort

if one is to have a good knowledge of AA

history. Yet most of these works will not be

found on the shelves of ordinary commercial

bookstores. If we do not make them available

for AA members to browse through at AA

intergroup offices and the like, most of

our members will never even know of their

existence.



Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous by Dick B



Bill W: A Different Kind of Hero by Tom White



Bill W by Francis Hartigan



Bill W by Robert Thomsen



Bill W: My First 40 Years, autobiography



Children of the Healer: Bob Smith & Sue Smith

Windows by Christine Brewer



Diary of Two Motorcycle Hobos by Lois Wilson,

edited by Ellie Van V.



Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B



Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous

by Nan Robertson



Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing



Harry Tiebout: The Collected Writings



How It Worked: The Story of Clarence H. Snyder

and ... Cleveland, Ohio by Mitchell K.



Lois Remembers by Lois Wilson



Lois Wilson Story: When Love Is Not Enough

by William G. Borchert



Mrs Marty Mann by Sally and David R Brown



My Name Is Bill: Bill Wilson -- His Life and

... Alcoholics Anonymous by Susan Cheever



My Search for Bill W by Mel B



New Wine by Mel B



Not God by Ernest Kurtz



Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill Pittman



Silkworth: The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks

by Dale Mitchell



Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous

by Mary C Darrah



Slaying the Dragon by William L White



Soul of Sponsorship ... Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J.

and Bill Wilson in Letters by Robert Fitzgerald



Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery by Charlotte

Hunter, Billye Jones, and Joan Ziegler


0 -1 0 0
4237 james.bliss@comcast.net
RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/13/2007 1:43:00 PM


With respect to Arthur S's statement below:



There is a very limited number of people who

even have access to the literature with its

changes prior to the vote (substantial changes

or new literature). The Delegates may have

an opportunity to review the material

immediately prior to the vote, but the actual

changes, or new literature, is only distributed

to the people who are on the committee for

formal review and input, and they make

written recommendations regarding the changes.



A point of interest here is that the groups

(and therefore individual members) have no

access to the literature (new or significant

changes) prior to it being approved and

published. Sort of goes against the concept

of AA being run by the groups.



Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording)

are often published for review to the groups.

It is just significant changes, rewrites and

new literature which is not. I have been

informed this is due to a fear of copyright

issues and the material being purloined by

others.



Jim



> It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

> at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

> of literature prior to voting on it. The

> review is usually done by a committee of

> several Delegates. The remainder of the

> Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

> for/against the literature based on the

> recommendation of the committee (that's how

> the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

> about on-line meetings and the punctuation

> changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

> changes slipped past Conference review). While

> all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

> a fraction of them actually gets to read it

> prior to voting.

>


0 -1 0 0
4238 johnlawlee
Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron 4/13/2007 2:36:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

"Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@...> wrote about the

OG alcoholics going to Stewart's Cafeteria

after OG meetings.



The "alcoholic squadron" of the OG used to

meet in Stewart's Cafeteria in 1935, which was

the exact period that the startup staff of the

Partisan Review met in the same establishment

late at night. The two groups no doubt

interacted, as they stood in line for apple

pie and coffee. I recall reading that Stewart's

was open all night, and had an automat format.

There must have been an interesting contrast

in the discussions of the two groups, the

drunks complaining about the "churchies" from

the OG, and the communists complaining about

the opium of the people.



john lee

where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio





> Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings,

> Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at

> Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary

> Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and

> Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142,

> NG 314)

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

>


0 -1 0 0
4239 Shakey1aa@aol.com
AA in Australia Pt 2 & t/y Nell Wing AA in Australia Pt 2 & t/y Nell Wing 4/16/2007 9:32:00 AM


Post 1 shows the two documents that started AA formation outside the western

hemisphere.

Post 2 is my interpretation of the letters and also a remembrance of

Nell Wing.

The first letter was written by Dr Minogue to the American Journal of

Psychiatry, asking for information about starting AA. The letter was forwarded

to

The Central office and Bill Wilson at the Vessay St and Cort.7-3159 as the

phone number. I'm not sure if the writing on the 1st letter is Bills

instructions to Bobbie Burger about what to write in her response, but the

response give

a good insight as to what AA was like during the Second World War.The

letters were sent to me on a cd along with some tapes of early AA meetings in

Australia by a friend Ron C-archivist for Australia. What made me think of this

was an e mail I received from him about Nell Wing.He was good friends with her

and still communicates with her Nephew Bill W.(not Wilson) I had sent him a

card that the funeral home was giving out in "memory of Nell Wing."

He wrote an article that was published for Australian AA's that I am

sure he would have no problem with my sharing with fellow AAHL's.-





Nell Wing was a non alcoholic servant of AA who was on her way to Mexico in

1947 to study sculpture and needed a part time job to earn some money to tide

her over while she was studying. Nell had been discharged from the navy. She

went into an employment agency and told them of her requirements. The person

in the agency whispered to her that there was a job going in the office of

Alcoholics Anonymous. There was not a lot known about AA at that time by the

general public. I don't know what the person thought would happen to Nell but

she was able to smile and say I'll take the job. As the story goes the rest

is history. She became the receptionist in the AA office at Lexington Ave New

York City. Later she became the Bill. Wilson's secretary for the next

seventeen years until his death in January 1971. Nell then set up the

Archives and

worked there till 1982.



I first met Nell in 1977 in the Archives and we became friends and

corresponded until she went into assisted living in New Jersey. I told Nell

that I

would like to meet Lois Wilson. Nell rang Lois at Steppingstones and Lois

graciously asks me to come up by train to Bedford Hills. Lois was a very small

was

a very small woman as most people would know. She was standing besides a big

American car and I was wondering if she was going to drive. Not at that time

knowing much about her story. She welcomed me in her Brooklyn accent and we

drove off and Lois remarked that she had received a ticket for speeding when

she was eighty years old. She was a very good driver although she could hardly

see over the dashboard. I was blesses to correspond with Lois for the rest

of her life and visited her many times. I traveled NYC regularly on ships and

as a visitor.



Nell Wing was the daughter that Lois and Bill never had although in a sense

they had thousands of children. Nell was a companion of Lois’ for forty five

years. She visited the Wilson's almost every weekend and a room off the living

room is still known as Nell’s room. I visited Steppingstones sometimes with

Nell and Lois was a good hostess. I had the privilege of sleeping in Nell’s

room when I stayed with Lois. Nell was on the board of The Steppingstones

Foundation which Lois set up in 1977 eleven years before she died in October

1988. It is open house for all who wish to visit all that is need is a phone

call

to Director of The Foundation Annah Perch.



I was also fortunate to join Nell at couple of International Conventions and

a couple dinners at the opening of the General Service Conference. I would

imagine that Nell would have known Bill and Lois better than anyone as in her

work she was Bills constant companion. She told me lots of stories about Bill

and Lois most of them heart warming and some sad but always inspiring as

time went on. Nell’s nephew has been a tower of strength for Nell as she grew

older. There is a story that Nell looked after Bill W.(her nephew) and then

Bill W.(her nephew) was looking after Nell. Bill has been a wonderful

caretaker and has looked after Nell and her affairs for many years. It is

great

to know Bill and to be his friend. I feel very few people would know the

difficult times for Nell when Bill Wilson was suffering his deep depressions.

She

did speak about his problems with a lot of love and compassion.



Nell I will never forget your love and kindness to me. That is the person

that you were and it was not just me but when I was in your company you

extended that same love and kindness to others. I will never forget you Nell as

you

have touched my heart many, many times. I was able to visit Nell several

times in her last years in New Jersey. I fully believe she is resting in

peace with God for the work she did for Alcoholics Anonymous and in particular

for Bill and Lois. She has gone to a well earned rest and reward. As Bill her

beloved nephew stated she is now reunited with Bill and Lois. Nell you will

always be in my heart. Ron C. - Australia



I edited his response for clarity because one Bill W was Bill Wilson and

the other Bill W. is Nell's nephew. I too am blessed to know Nell's nephew

Bill and also Ron C. I hope to travel to Australia one day soon to not only

visit that beautiful country but also to make a few meetings in a place that

started AA outside of North America. Thank God for these people being placed in

my life.



Your's in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

going to Phoenix AZ, Sept 6-9 for

the 11th National Archives Workshop









************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4240 johnpublico
That should be Johantgen''s Jewelry, not Hantgen''s That should be Johantgen''s Jewelry, not Hantgen''s 4/12/2007 2:55:00 PM


I goofed. That should have been Johantgen, not Hantgen.



John K.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com "johnpublico" <keller@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Jerry,

>

> Thanks for the great info about the Camel Pins.

>

> After snooping around the internet for a bit,

> I think the jewelry store is Hantgen's Jewelry.

> They are still in Minneapolis, at the Crystal

> Shopping Centre. (I think Crystal is a

> neighborhood or town within the city limits,

> like Fridley).

>

> Phone number is (763) 537-7233.

>

> Let us know what you find out and whether

> they take mail orders (I'm in North Carolina).

>

> John K.

>

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com "oys.jerry5672"

> <oys.jerry@> wrote:

> >

> > I was recently doing some research on sobriety

> > lapel pins and talked to a employee at

> > Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were

> > formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She

> > put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or

> > Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He

> > shared with me that a man named Frank B. made

> > the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a

> > member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis

> > (Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were

> > made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe

> > was located in Minneapolis at the time. They

> > are now located in Crystal MN. and currently

> > have pins in stock. The oldest one I have

> > was my fathers and it has a screw on back and

> > those made today have a clutch back. They

> > are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with

> > 24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an

> > inch in size. I purchased some of them a

> > number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to

> > $6.00.

> >

> > Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/

> > Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis,

> > Minnesota, in the 1940's.

> >

> > At this point in time again from my perception

> > I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold.

> > I would tend to believe that Frank designed

> > the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the

> > mold.

> >

> > I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather

> > more information. Which means that "More

> > Will Be Revealed".

> >

> > Jerry Oys

> > Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist

> >

>


0 -1 0 0
4241 t
Re: Non-conference-approved literature Non-conference-approved literature 4/14/2007 12:24:00 AM


notes taken from the AAWS publication [M-39]:



ADVISORY ACTIONS

OF THE GENERAL SERVICE CONFERENCE

OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS





In 1952, with full representation, the Conference

reviewed and considered a number of policy problems

affecting the movement as a whole and initiated a planned

program of Conference-approved literature service.



1954 It was recommended that:

All Conference-approved literature have on its face an identifying

symbol.



All reprints such as those reproducing material from Fortune,

Saturday Evening Post and Good Housekeeping, bear the credit

line at the top of the cover and that the cover be in white to

distinguish such reprints from Conference-approved literature.





1964 It was recommended that:

Regarding pamphlets and literature other than that which is

Conference-approved being displayed or sold at area and

state conferences, it was the sense of the meeting that we

have no authority in this area. It is to be noted that all

Conference-approved literature should be made available at

A.A. get-togethers.





1969 It was recommended that:

More effective ways of displaying Conference-approved literature

be explored; that the delegates be polled for their suggestions

and results be made available to A.A. groups.





1972 It was recommended that:

It be suggested that when a local A.A. facility (central office,

intergroup, group, etc.) sells non-Conference-approved literature,

it be clearly designated as such.





1974 It was recommended that:

Previous Conference action to display non-Conference-approved

literature and Conference-approved literature separately

be reaffirmed.





1975 It was recommended that:

Previous Conference action to display non-Conference-approved

literature and Conference-approved literature separately

be reaffirmed.





1977 It was recommended that:

It was suggested that A.A. groups be discouraged from selling

literature not distributed by the General Service Office and the

Grapevine. (Floor Action)





1986 It was recommended that:

The Conference reaffirm the spirit of the 1977 Conference

action regarding group literature displays, and recommended

the suggestion that A.A. groups be encouraged to display or

sell only literature published and distributed by the General

Service Office, the A.A. Grapevine and other A.A. entities.


0 -1 0 0
4242 Arthur S
RE: RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/14/2007 9:40:00 AM


Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with me at all over the

years.



Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any means, but with his

very factual statement of the notion of "copyright protection" being used by

the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an excuse to withhold review

copies of literature from Delegates and Groups.



Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors can shed some light on

the situation on whether or not there are valid copyright concerns involved.



To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny Delegates (or for that

matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of literature well prior to

its publication.



Outside of Directories there is no time-critical aspect to any publication

nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't be added on to the

publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO uses a notion of a

"work in progress" to make the entire process top-secret and known only to a

select few and then claims copies of the completed work cannot be circulated

in order to protect the copyright.



Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review planned changes to the "AA

Group" pamphlet and received the response that it could not be done in order

to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't seem to hold water to me,

particularly in an age of digital rights management.



My understanding of the copyright process is that an author need only mark a

work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order to establish initial

legal intellectual property rights prior to going through the full legal

copyright process. Is this true?



Cheers

Arthur

-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

james.bliss@comcast.net

Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved



With respect to Arthur S's statement below:



There is a very limited number of people who

even have access to the literature with its

changes prior to the vote (substantial changes

or new literature). The Delegates may have

an opportunity to review the material

immediately prior to the vote, but the actual

changes, or new literature, is only distributed

to the people who are on the committee for

formal review and input, and they make

written recommendations regarding the changes.



A point of interest here is that the groups

(and therefore individual members) have no

access to the literature (new or significant

changes) prior to it being approved and

published. Sort of goes against the concept

of AA being run by the groups.



Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording)

are often published for review to the groups.

It is just significant changes, rewrites and

new literature which is not. I have been

informed this is due to a fear of copyright

issues and the material being purloined by

others.



Jim



> It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

> at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

> of literature prior to voting on it. The

> review is usually done by a committee of

> several Delegates. The remainder of the

> Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

> for/against the literature based on the

> recommendation of the committee (that's how

> the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

> about on-line meetings and the punctuation

> changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

> changes slipped past Conference review). While

> all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

> a fraction of them actually gets to read it

> prior to voting.

>







Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4243 tracy flynn
Re: RE: conference-approved/structure conference-approved/structure 4/13/2007 4:17:00 PM


I wanted to take a moment to clear up some of the confusion regarding the

conference. The information does go out to all the area Delegates with regards

to what will be happening and be being discussed at the spring conference. The

Delegate is going to be on a specific committee and that Delegate will get all

or most of the committee specific material. They trust the other Delegates

"group conscience" (Concept 3). Many areas hold day long or weekend long

workshops where they discuss, with anyone who wants to attend, what will be

reviewed and voted on at the Conference. Speak with your Delegate if there’s

nothing like that in your area.



The Service Manual, which was initially the Third Legacy Manual (first draft

written by Bill W. in 1951), describes in detail the structure of AA. The most

important piece in reference to this subject would be Concept 9 and the full

article contained in there from the 1959 Grapevine: “Leadership in AA: Ever a

Vital Need.” (I wont type it all here)



This addresses the fact that when an alcoholic is in a meeting and voting for

someone, that they don’t vote for the most popular. The alcoholic must vote for

the most knowledgeable and responsible person, whether they like them or not.

The votes will be cast and ultimately go down to the Delegate. That Delegate

votes at the General Service Conference. The groups today do have a delegated

vote on everything. The groups do have the final say. Arthur S. referenced the

on-line meeting statement. When that came out, the groups went back to their

Delegates, which in turn went to New York, and the on-line statement was removed

from the Forward to the Fourth Edition.



The groups do have the final say as our history and literature clearly state.



Warmest Wishes,

Tracy F

Chicago





james.bliss@comcast.net wrote: With respect to Arthur S's statement

below:



There is a very limited number of people who

even have access to the literature with its

changes prior to the vote (substantial changes

or new literature). The Delegates may have

an opportunity to review the material

immediately prior to the vote, but the actual

changes, or new literature, is only distributed

to the people who are on the committee for

formal review and input, and they make

written recommendations regarding the changes.



A point of interest here is that the groups

(and therefore individual members) have no

access to the literature (new or significant

changes) prior to it being approved and

published. Sort of goes against the concept

of AA being run by the groups.



Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording)

are often published for review to the groups.

It is just significant changes, rewrites and

new literature which is not. I have been

informed this is due to a fear of copyright

issues and the material being purloined by

others.



Jim



> It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

> at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

> of literature prior to voting on it. The

> review is usually done by a committee of

> several Delegates. The remainder of the

> Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

> for/against the literature based on the

> recommendation of the committee (that's how

> the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

> about on-line meetings and the punctuation

> changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

> changes slipped past Conference review). While

> all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

> a fraction of them actually gets to read it

> prior to voting.

>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4244 Arnello Sirignano
When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used 4/15/2007 8:31:00 PM


Hello Fellows & Fellowettes



Maybe someone here can help me with something.



I had always thought the name for our society

came from the title of our basic text book

named "Alcoholics Anonymous," right? And didn't

come into use until after the Big Book was

published.



So why then does it mention "Alcoholics Anonymous"

in the first printing of the First Edition of

the Big Book? In the story titled "A Different

Slant," the author writes, "The doctor at this

hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who

called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked

if I wanted one of them to call upon me."



Maybe I'm just missing something. But please

explain if you can.



Thank You,

Arnello Sirignano



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4245 Paul
Bill W.''s sobriety date was 12/12/34 Bill W.''s sobriety date was 12/12/34 4/16/2007 5:37:00 AM


Bill W's sobriety date is 12/12/34. He was

obviously drinking on 12/11/34 to and at Towns

Hospital. IMO his first day of sobriety is

12/12/34.



He made the decision to stop on 12/11/34 but

actually stopped on 12/12/34. Similar to the

three frogs on the log.



Paul







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@...>

wrote:

>

> Bill W's sober date is December 11, 1934.

> See "Pass It On" pg 104 for an image of his

> discharge slip from Towns Hospital - it shows

> an "admitted" date of 12/11/34 and "discharged"

> date of 12/18/34.

>

> December 11, 1934 is the date Bill W had

> his last drink on the way to, and at,

> Towns Hospital.

>

> Bill's profound spiritual experience (as noted

> in several sources) occurred after he was

> visited by Ebby in Towns Hospital. Ebby's

> visit could have occurred anywhere from the

> day following Bill's admission to the hospital

> up to 2 or 3 days after. I personally lean

> toward December 14 as the date of Bill's

> experience (although it's a close toss-up

> with December 13 as the possible date).

> Different written sources give different

> inferences of a possible date. Specific dates

> in AA history are not the easiest to determine

> or reach consensus on (Dr Bob's sober date

> being a prime example of that).

>

> Following is (as best as I can reconstruct

> it, from a variety of written sources) a

> timeline of Bill W receiving a message of

> recovery from Ebby T and the beginning of

> his own carrying the message to other

> alcoholics.

>

> Source references:

>

> AABB (Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book),

> AACOA (AA Comes of Age),

> AGAA (The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics

> Anonymous, by Dick B)

> BW-RT (Bill W by Robert Thomsen),

> BW-FH (Bill W by Francis Hartigan),

> BW-40 (Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography),

> EBBY (Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by

> Mel B),

> GB (Getting Better Inside Alcoholics

> Anonymous by Nan Robertson),

> GTBT (Grateful to Have Been There by

> Nell Wing),

> LOH (The Language of the Heart),

> LR (Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson),

> NG (Not God, by Ernest Kurtz),

> NW (New Wine, by Mel B),

> PIO (Pass It On),

> RAA (The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by

> Bill Pittman),

> SD (Slaying the Dragon, by William L White),

> SM (AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts

> for World Service),

> SW (Silkworth - The Little Doctor Who Loved

> Drunks, by Dale Mitchell).

>

> Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the

> Calvary Mission and working with the Oxford

> Group, heard about Bill W's problems with

> drinking. He phoned Lois who invited him over

> for dinner. (EBBY 66)

>

> Nov (late), Ebby visited Bill W at 182 Clinton

> St and shared his recovery experience "one

> alcoholic talking to another." (AACOA vii,

> 58-59) A few days later, Ebby returned with

> Shep C. They both spoke to Bill about the

> Oxford Group. Bill did not think too highly

> of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited

> several times, once even staying for dinner.

> (AACOA vii, NG 17-18, 311, BW-FH 57-58,

> NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192)

>

> Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the

> Calvary Mission on 23rd St. He showed up drunk

> with a drinking companion found along the way

> (Alec the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the

> service wanting to speak. On the verge of being

> ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate

> of beans. Bill later joined the penitents and

> drunkenly "testified" at the meeting. (AACOA

> 59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60,

> NW 23, PIO 116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156-

> 159, EBBY 66-69)

>

> Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to

> Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four

> bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got

> financial help from his mother, Emily, for

> the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA

> 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31).

>

> Dec 14 (possibly 13), Ebby visited Bill W at

> Towns Hospital and told him about the Oxford

> Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell

> into a deep depression (his "deflation at

> depth") and had a profound spiritual experience

> after crying out "If there be a God, will he

> show himself." Bill called Dr Silkworth to ask

> if he was going crazy. Dr Silkworth later

> assured Bill he was not crazy and told him

> to hang on to what he had found. In a lighter

> vein, Bill and others would later refer to this

> as his "white flash" or "hot flash" experience.

> (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148,

> NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111,

> LOH 278-279)

>

> Note: and it sometimes raises the hackles of

> AA members, Bill W was subjected to something

> called the "belladonna cure." The regimen

> primarily involved "purging and puking" aided

> by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna,

> a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms

> of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85,

> BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174).

> What role the belladonna may have played in

> Bill's experience is undetermined.

>

> Dec 15 (possibly 14), Ebby (or possibly Rowland

> H) brought Bill W a copy of William James'

> book "The Varieties of Religious Experience."

> Bill was deeply inspired by the book. It

> revealed three key points for recovery:

> 1) calamity or complete defeat in some vital

> area of life (hitting bottom), 2) admission

> of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a

> higher power for help (acceptance). The book

> strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in

> the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70,

> SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313,

> NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28)

>

> Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began

> working with drunks. He and Lois attended

> Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C

> at Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was

> the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG's

> US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave

> (now Park Ave) and 21st Street. Calvary House

> (where OG meetings were usually held) was

> at 61 Gramercy Park. Calvary Mission was

> located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16,

> AACOA vii, LR 197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25,

> PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144)

>

> Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings,

> Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at

> Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary

> Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and

> Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142,

> NG 314)

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

>


0 -1 0 0
4246 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron 4/16/2007 9:05:00 PM


There was a Stewarts in the Village, and I

am curious to know if it was the same one

frequented by Bill W.





johnlawlee@yahoo.com writes:

"Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@Art>



... wrote about the OG alcoholics going to

Stewart's Cafeteria after OG meetings.



The "alcoholic squadron" of the OG used to

meet in Stewart's Cafeteria in 1935, which was

the exact period that the startup staff of the

Partisan Review met in the same establishment

late at night. The two groups no doubt

interacted, as they stood in line for apple

pie and coffee. I recall reading that Stewart's

was open all night, and had an automat format.

There must have been an interesting contrast

in the discussions of the two groups, the

drunks complaining about the "churchies" from

the OG, and the communists complaining about

the opium of the people.



john lee

where the Allegheny meets the Monongahela, to form the Ohio



> Dec (late), after Oxford Group meetings,

> Bill W and other OG alcoholics met at

> Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary

> Mission. Attendees included Rowland H and

> Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142,

> NG 314)

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

>


0 -1 0 0
4247 Sally Brown
Re: Gay groups listed in schedules Gay groups listed in schedules 4/12/2007 8:08:00 PM


Hi, Li Lightfoot -



There is a wonderful new book coming out

later this spring, A History of Gay People

in Alcoholics Anonymous: From the Beginning

(Haworth Press), by Audrey Borden.



She's a Northern Californian and might have

the information you're seeking - or at least

have an idea where you could inquire.



Her email address is

<audreyborden@earthlink.net>

(audreyborden at earthlink.net)



Good luck!



Shalom - Sally



Rev Sally Brown,

coauthor with David R. Brown:

A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann

The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain

United Church of Christ



www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Road, 309

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

Email: rev.sally@att.net


0 -1 0 0
4248 Jeff Your
Re: Gay groups listed in schedules Gay groups listed in schedules 4/12/2007 3:00:00 PM


See http://www.iac-aa.org/



International Advisory Council

of homosexual men and women

in Alcoholics Anonymous


0 -1 0 0
4249 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: AA in Australia Pt 2 & t/y Nell Wing AA in Australia Pt 2 & t/y Nell Wing 4/17/2007 1:13:00 PM


I have the copies of the 2 letters that started AA in Australia. They did

not post. If anyone wants a copy please e mail me your name and address and I'll

either e mail them directly or snail mail them to you

Shakey Mike G.

PHX is hot in Sept.


0 -1 0 0
4250 Bill Lash
RE: Gay groups listed in schedules Gay groups listed in schedules 4/14/2007 7:41:00 PM


Chapter 19 - Special Composition Groups in A.A.

(from an unpublished AA history book by former GSO General Manager Bob P.)



Homosexual Alcoholics



Homosexual -i.e., gay and lesbian - alcoholics have found help and recovery

in Alcoholics Anonymous from its very early days. Bill W. refers to them in

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions and in a 1958 letter expresses deep

sympathy and concern. The dedication and talents of gay and lesbian A.A.

members have often led them into service, where they have contributed

enormously in all capacities including Delegate and Trustee. Almost never

overt in their lifestyle, they have been completely accepted.







In 1975, Lillen Fifield published a study of alcohol abuse in the Los

Angeles gay community entitled, "On My Way to Nowhere: Alienated, Isolated,

Drunk." Its title suggested the author's theory to account for the high

incidence of alcoholism among homosexuals - which is reflected in the number

of homosexual A.A.'s in that city. The point was made that A.A. serves

unique needs for gay and lesbian alcoholics over and above those of straight

alcoholics. The former are frequently estranged from their families at an

early age, and hence feel rejected, lonely and "different" -- which makes

them especially vulnerable to alcoholism. Add to this that their social life

usually revolves around gay bars, partying and drinking. When they reach

their bottom and come to A.A., they find in recovery not only a new way of

life and new values, but also an acceptance and, indeed, a new "family" they

have never had before.







Therefore, in large cities with a significant homosexual population - New

York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington, Boston -- gays and lesbians

came to A.A as early as the 1940's and in increasing numbers ever since.

Going back to the late '40's and more noticeably in the '50's and '60's,

there were groups in certain neighborhoods such as Greenwich Village and the

East Side of Manhattan in New York, and downtown San Francisco, which were

primarily composed of gay people, though they were not listed or designated

as gay groups. "We were getting along fine," recalls a gay A.A. member in

San Francisco, "with plenty of gay people getting sober in groups downtown

or Mann or East Bay which were predominantly gay but also had a rich

diversity of people."







However, although the gays identified with the drinking and the feelings of

straight A.A.'s, they sometimes had difficulty being comfortable or openly

sharing their experiences and problems. And so, in San Francisco in about

1967, some people felt they wanted a group which was exclusively gay. It is

recalled that there was considerable debate and controversy within the gay

A.A. community whether or not to do it, but it was finally decided to give

it a try downtown at the Episcopal Church on Fell Street. At first, the

members identified themselves with names and "I'm a gay alcoholic." Shortly,

however, most of them dropped saying "gay" and said simply, "I'm an

alcoholic." "We regarded this just as a place where homosexual alcoholics

could come who were intimidated in coming to a straight A.A. group," a

founder says. "We had no idea of creating something in which people would

come in and get sober and spend their entire A.A. life. But that's what's

happened, and if we hadn't done it, someone else would."







And someone else was indeed doing it in other cities. In Washington, D.C.,

for example, four alcoholics -- two gay and two lesbian -- gathered for a

meeting in a private home on December 8, 1971. All of them found an

exclusively homosexual group extremely helpful. They continued meeting on

Sundays at two homes in nearby Virginia until the summer of 1972, when Cade

W. and Bob W approached Fr. Goodrich of St.James Episcopal Church and

requested meeting space. He gave his permission. A later pastor said, "If it

had gone to the Vestry Council, it would have been turned down." Soon a

Wednesday Step meeting was added to the Sunday meeting at St.James. Besides

Cade and Bob, early members included Blanche H., Gerry Kay T., Tom H., Ray

C., Vern W., Barbara G., Nancy T. and Dennis L.







In early 1974, Ray C. started the St.Margaret's open speaker meeting on

Friday evenings. The Lambda group in Virginia followed on Saturday nights. A

Big Book meeting began at St. Thomas in late '75, and the Montrose group

began a month later. A.A. groups for gays continued to grow and in 1985

Washington, Maryland and Virginia had 15 groups with about 40 meetings a

week.







As similar patterns of growth occurred in other cities, and A.A.

groups for gays began to appear in other locations, the need was felt for a

directory of gay/lesbian groups. (Since 1974, they were listed, without

special designation, in A.A.'s Directories for U.S. /Canada, by Conference

action. See pp. XX-XX). For this purpose as well as to provide a contact

point for homosexual alcoholics, the International Advisory council for

Homosexual Men and Women in Alcoholics Anonymous was organized. They also

publish a helpful pamphlet. The Council is listed in the front of the A.A.

Directories, along with contacts for other special composition groups, and

the Council has worked with G.S.O. to help provide workshops and social

events for gay/lesbian A.A.'s at International Conventions since 1980.

However, gay members in other cities are quick to point out that the Council

does not speak for all gay A.A.'s nor is it responsible to them. "Some of us

out here," says a member in San Francisco, "area little nervous and a little

resentful at the recognition given to this particular bunch."







The question of listing groups for homosexuals raged in Los Angeles (and

some other localities) long after the Conference had decided it at the

national level. The problem in Southern California was due not only to the

large number of such groups, but it was further complicated by the existence

of a whole coterie of groups for gays who called themselves "Alcoholics

Together." They pressured the Los Angeles central Office to list them in the

local meeting directory. Actually, however, "Alcoholics Together" were

religious in origin and, though they patterned themselves after all aspects

of the A.A. program, they were not A.A. - which finally settled the issue.







In 1975, an ad hoc group of gay A.A.'s in Northern California decided they

would put on an AA. round-up. A gay member who tried to help them says the

trouble was, none of the sponsoring group had more than two years sobriety.

"They made a lot of mistakes, including putting out a flyer that was

carefully designed to offend almost everybody, without their realizing they

were offending anybody." Howls of protest were heard as far as the G.S.O. in

New York, and the local Delegate was asked to meet with them and try to

straighten them out. Subsequently, a second flyer was produced, and when it

was shown to staff member Cora Louise B. during the Conference, she

remarked, "My, this is as proper and decorous as an invitation to a

coming-out party in Greenville, Mississippi !"







That first round-up in 1976 was a great success, with about 200 in

attendance from as far away as Vancouver, British Columbia, and Los Angeles.

They immediately wanted to go home and have a similar event of their own --

and so the idea spread. The format of the ICYPAA conferences was followed in

many cases. Criticism has been heard that the largest of these round-ups in

New York and San Francisco, drawing around 2,000 people, have gotten far

afield from A.A. in their workshops. But other recent local gatherings of

gay A.A. 's have been "pure, basic A.A. - absolutely marvelous!" according

to one discriminating member.









-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Li Lightfoot

Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 6:16 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Gay groups listed in schedules





Hey Folks:



I am working on an article to be published

in the San Francisco Fellowship's newsletter

on the first Gay groups in A.A. We know that

there was a lot of controversy about listing

Gay and Lesbian Groups in the schedules and

that this was eventually overcome.



Does anyone know the details of this history

or know where I might find out about it?



Thanks,



Li Lightfoot

The Point Committee













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4251 John Lee
Re: Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron Stewart''s Cafeteria and the Alcoholic Squadron 4/17/2007 5:39:00 PM


The Stewarts cafeteria frequented by both the

Alcoholic Squadron of OG and the Partisan

Review staff in 1934 was located in what is

now called the West Village. It would have

been entertaining to overhear the arguments

about God emanating from both tables.

john lee

pittsburgh



Baileygc23@aol.com wrote:

There was a Stewarts in the Village, and I

am curious to know if it was the same one

frequented by Bill W.


0 -1 0 0
4252 hortnwho
Can an individual have only one Home Group? Can an individual have only one Home Group? 4/17/2007 1:31:00 AM


I need to find out where the idea came from

that we choose one home group and have a vote

in only one group or hold a service position

in only one group.



I fully believe you choose one home group and

have one vote in AA and hold a position in

one group only, but in my home group some

members are very strongly contesting that.



I am the group's GSR and really would like to

uphold the Traditions, Concepts and Warranties.



I'm sure this came from somewhere, and figured

here is the best place to find out.



Thank You in advance.



Sincerely,

Lisa Ann F.

member of Hot Springs AA


0 -1 0 0
4253 Tom White
Re: RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/17/2007 6:27:00 PM


Arthur:



I agree with you. If you wrote a thing and can

prove it, your copyright is firm IMHO. Seems

to me there must be some other arcane

considerations at work? Tom W., Odessa, TX



- - - -



On Apr 14, 2007, at 8:40 AM, Arthur S wrote:



> Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with me at all over

> the

> years.

>

> Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any means, but

> with his

> very factual statement of the notion of "copyright protection"

> being used by

> the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an excuse to withhold

> review

> copies of literature from Delegates and Groups.

>

> Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors can shed some

> light on

> the situation on whether or not there are valid copyright concerns

> involved.

>

> To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny Delegates (or

> for that

> matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of literature well

> prior to

> its publication.

>

> Outside of Directories there is no time-critical aspect to any

> publication

> nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't be added on to the

> publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO uses a notion

> of a

> "work in progress" to make the entire process top-secret and known

> only to a

> select few and then claims copies of the completed work cannot be

> circulated

> in order to protect the copyright.

>

> Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review planned changes to

> the "AA

> Group" pamphlet and received the response that it could not be done

> in order

> to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't seem to hold

> water to me,

> particularly in an age of digital rights management.

>

> My understanding of the copyright process is that an author need

> only mark a

> work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order to establish

> initial

> legal intellectual property rights prior to going through the full

> legal

> copyright process. Is this true?

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

> -----Original Message-----

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

> james.bliss@comcast.net

> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved

>

> With respect to Arthur S's statement below:

>

> There is a very limited number of people who

> even have access to the literature with its

> changes prior to the vote (substantial changes

> or new literature). The Delegates may have

> an opportunity to review the material

> immediately prior to the vote, but the actual

> changes, or new literature, is only distributed

> to the people who are on the committee for

> formal review and input, and they make

> written recommendations regarding the changes.

>

> A point of interest here is that the groups

> (and therefore individual members) have no

> access to the literature (new or significant

> changes) prior to it being approved and

> published. Sort of goes against the concept

> of AA being run by the groups.

>

> Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording)

> are often published for review to the groups.

> It is just significant changes, rewrites and

> new literature which is not. I have been

> informed this is due to a fear of copyright

> issues and the material being purloined by

> others.

>

> Jim

>

> > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

> > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

> > of literature prior to voting on it. The

> > review is usually done by a committee of

> > several Delegates. The remainder of the

> > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

> > for/against the literature based on the

> > recommendation of the committee (that's how

> > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

> > about on-line meetings and the punctuation

> > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

> > changes slipped past Conference review). While

> > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

> > a fraction of them actually gets to read it

> > prior to voting.

> >

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4254 Sally Brown
Re: Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity 4/12/2007 7:35:00 PM


Hi, Chris B -



In 1959 Lewis F Presnall became the first

director of the Office of Industrial Services,

established by Marty Mann in her organization,

National Council on Alcoholism (NCA). His

outreach to business and industry helped

support the handful of existing Employee

Assistance Programs (EAPs), and encourage

and train personnel for new programs. To

quote from Marty's biography:



"Marty's rallying cry became 'Save the man,

save the investment!' ...NCA's most successful

programs became their industrial ones,

because those employees were highly motivated

to recover in order to keep their jobs.

(Marty quoted a 75 percent recovery rate.)"



For more information about Lewis Presnall, I

would contact the national offices of what is

now National Council on Alcoholism and Drug

Dependence (NCADD) in New York City. There

have been some staff changes, but this main

number should get you started: 212 269 5691.



In addition, the Employee Assistance Profes-

sionals Association (EAPA) might have some

information for you. Their URL is

http://www.eapassn.org/public/pages/index.cfm?pageid=325 .



Shalom - Sally

_____________________________





Rev Sally Brown

coauthor with David R. Brown: A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain

The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous

United Church of Christ



www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

1470 Sand Hill Road, 309

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

Email: rev.sally@att.net





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4255 Wendi Turner
Stewart''s Cafeteria Stewart''s Cafeteria 4/17/2007 8:35:00 PM


I'm looking on google.com for information about

Stewarts cafeteria...



This place sounds amazing.



Not only were OG and Alcoholic Squadron members

frequent patrons, it was also a favorite gay

spot for men wanting to sit at the window and

watch the boys go by... and many theatre-ites

of that era.



Keep in mind, this is the depression... being

in a cafeteria is a big deal.



This is a description on the internet about

the place...



"There was a very popular meeting place in that

year of the hunger and bonus marches: Stewart's

Cafeteria on Sheridan Square, where the

Greenwich Village Theatre, in which I had

made my stage debut, had once stood. At midnight

it had the festive air of Madison Square

Garden on the occasion of a big fight. Here

the poor and jolly have-beens, ne'er-do-wells,

names-to-be, the intellectual, the bohemian,

the lazy, neurotic, confused and unfortunate,

the radicals, mystics, thugs, drags and sweet

young people without a base collected noisily

to make a very stirring music of their discord

and hope.



Though this cafeteria must have represented

a high degree of affluence to the really hungry,

it struck me as a sort of singing Hooverville.

For, strangely enough, this incubator of the

Depression, with many marks of waste and decay

upon it, was in point of fact a place rank with

promise.... "



http://www.lctreview.org/article.cfm?id_issue=62892319&id_article=3057787&page=1


0 -1 0 0
4256 pvttimt@aol.com
Re: Bill W.''s sobriety date Bill W.''s sobriety date 4/17/2007 5:23:00 PM


From pvttimt and Jim Blair



From: pvttimt@aol.com

(pvttimt at aol.com)



Not to start or continue a controversy, but

for whatever reason, I was taught early on

by an old-timer who sobered up in 1953 in

Cleveland that one's last drinking date is

the date celebrated, not the first day of

not drinking. I have no idea why he or

others may have adopted this convention.



- - - -



From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



In my neck of the woods, early members did

not celebrate a "sobriety date" but rather

the date of their last drink. They did it

that way in order to "remember" their last

drink.



Jim



- - - -



Original Message from: zoidhog@yahoo.com



Bill W's sobriety date is 12/12/34. He was

obviously drinking on 12/11/34 to and at Towns

Hospital. IMO his first day of sobriety is

12/12/34.



He made the decision to stop on 12/11/34 but

actually stopped on 12/12/34.


0 -1 0 0
4257 Frank E. Nyikos
Re: Can an individual have only one Home Group? Can an individual have only one Home Group? 4/18/2007 1:46:00 PM


From Frank Nyikos, Kimball Rowe, Jim Blair,

Sherry Hartsell, Rotax Steve, and Baileygc23



- - - -



Original question from Lisa Ann F.



>I need to find out where the idea came from

> that we choose one home group and have a vote

> in only one group or hold a service position

> in only one group.



- - - -



From: "Frank E. Nyikos" <fenyikos@hoosierlink.net>

(fenyikos at hoosierlink.net)



You can always refer to AA material and get

info from the publication "Home Group -

Heartbeat of AA"



- - - -



From: "Kimball ROWE" <roweke@msn.com>

(roweke at msn.com)



From the pamphlet "The AA Group" and the

A.A. Service Manual:



"Traditionally, most A.A. members through the

years have found it important to belong to

one group which they call 'Home Group.' This

is the group where they accept responsibilities

and try to sustain friendships. And although

all A.A. members are usually welcome at all

groups and feel at home at any of these

meetings, the concept of the 'Home Group'

has still remained the strongest bond between

the A.A. member and the Fellowship."



From the pamphlet "The AA Group"



"With membership comes the right to vote upon

issues that might affect the group and might

also affect A.A. as a whole - a process that

forms the very cornerstone of A.A.'s service

structure. As with all group-conscience

matters, each A.A. member has one vote; and

this, ideally is voiced through his home

group."



My thoughts



..though not specifically stated, it is

heavily implied one and only one Home Group.

As I read it, I have no right to vote on

matters in groups other than my Home Group.

Nor should I enter into General Service or

hold a group position (elected trusted servant)

with a group other than my Home Group. I

have no problems with being of service with

another group (i.e., chairing a meeting hosted

by another group, greeting people at the

door, participating in another groups 7th

tradition, serving coffee, reading selected

passages, etc.)



- - - -



From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



Lisa Ann wrote



>I need to find out where the idea came from

> that we choose one home group and have a vote

> in only one group or hold a service position

> in only one group.



From common sense.



Jim



- - - -



From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" <hartsell@etex.net>

(hartsell at etex.net)



Hello Lisa Ann, lets say I live in Malvern,

pay taxes there, but come to a City/County

Election in Hot Springs and expect to vote

on days the Race Track is open!



Now I may have very strong feelings about the

Race dates, but I doubt they'd let me vote.

Same deal for membership, at one time group

membership was rigorously counted and kept

track of, because there was a suggested

contribution to GSO by each group of $3.65

per member per year; a penny a day.



Now, lets say I want to vote at YOUR Home

Group, say on putting on a big eating meeting,

renting a hall, flying in "A" Speakers from

back East or Calif. (which I am SURE has

never been done for "The Old Grand Dad" J)

but my job keeps me on the road most of the

time and I won't be around to help out

physically or financially with putting on or

paying for the deal I want a say so in.



I'm sure you get the point, One Home Group,

One Vote where you are responsible for what

you vote on---Where Oh Where are proponents

of The Little Rock Approach Plan when one

needs them J ?



Lisa, I lived in Arkansas much of my sober

time, had great friends in A.A., Al-anon and

the Service Structure there. Tell those folks

who are questioning this they need a sponsor

who will encourage their search of the service

manual.



Sherry c.h.



- - - -



From: "Gallery Photography" <gallery5@mindspring.com>

(gallery5 at mindspring.com)



I'm in agreement with you Lisa. When a

member claims membership to multiple groups,

I believe they are a member of no group. One

must show allegiance to one group (as well as

one sponsor - as many do not). What happens is;

if a person has a situation they want to talk

about, they'll select a group where they may

hear what they want to hear (same works with

multiple sponsorship). Unsure if there is a

set thing for that. I'm sure it would be covered

in the Concepts.



Rotax Steve

Nangi namaj perez



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com

(Baileygc23 at aol.com)



AA says there is no dogma. It also says the

group has the right to be wrong. Bill W said

that the leaders that tried to enforce laws

could be promptly beached for resisting too

hard the rising tide of democracy. Your group

may not be aware that rule 62 still applies.


0 -1 0 0
4258 Gallery Photography
Re: When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used 4/18/2007 5:47:00 PM


From Gallery Photography and John Otis:



Foreword to Second Edition says AFTER the

publication of the Big Book, vs. another old

tradition that it started in Cleveland.



But Arthur Sheehan points to documents dating

much earlier, to the summer of 1938.



- - - -



SPRING 1939

From: "Gallery Photography" <gallery5@mindspring.com>

(gallery5 at mindspring.com)



In the Foreword to Second Edition (page xvii)

it says: "This determination bore fruit in

the spring of 1939 by the publication of this

volume. The membership had then reached about

100 men and women. The fledgling society, which

had been nameless, now began to be called

Alcoholics Anonymous, from the title of its

own book."



We became "Alcoholics Anonymous" in the spring

of 1939.



Rotax Steve

Nangi namaj perez



- - - -



THE CLEVELAND THEORY

From: "john.otis" <suzkem@theriver.com>

(suzkem at theriver.com)



Hi, John Otis Miricle Valley, Arizona

In the book "That Amazing Grace" by Dick B.,

Clarence S. from Cleveland was helped by

Dr. Bob and he noticed the fighting between

the different religings, went back to

Cleveland and started a meeting. Someone

in the meeting said Why don't we call this

AA and Akron fell right into it. If we look

hard enough we find answers. When they first

started they called themselves The God Squad.

If you can read about Cleveland AA they

will tell you that is where we got our

name.



Love Ya, John



- - - -



SUMMER 1938

But Arthur Sheehan (see the next message posted

on this topic) has noted the existence of

documents referring to the alcoholics gathered

around Bill W. and Dr. Bob as "Alcoholics

Anonymous" in June and July 1938, and perhaps

as early as April 1938.



- - - -



These answers are all in response to a question

from "Arnello Sirignano" <arnello@ulster.net>

(arnello at ulster.net):



I had always thought the name for our society

came from the title of our basic text book

named "Alcoholics Anonymous," right? And didn't

come into use until after the Big Book was

published.



So why then does it mention "Alcoholics Anonymous"

in the first printing of the First Edition of

the Big Book? In the story titled "A Different

Slant," the author writes, "The doctor at this

hospital told me vaguely of the work of men who

called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous and asked

if I wanted one of them to call upon me."



Maybe I'm just missing something. But please

explain if you can.



- - - -



"A Different Slant" was Harry Brick's story. See

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm#Harry%20Brick

His date of sobriety was probably June 1938.

It is said that he sued to get the money he

had loaned A.A. to get the Big Book published

refunded. Harry was probably an accountant. He

is believed to be "Fred, a partner in a well

known accounting firm" whose story is told on

pages 39 through 43 of the Big Book.



So this fits with the documents Arthur Sheehan

has discovered, and makes it seem most likely

that the alcoholics who had gathered around

Bill W. and Dr. Bob were sometimes referring

to their whole group as "Alcoholics Anonymous"

as early as Summer 1938.


0 -1 0 0
4259 Arthur S
RE: When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used When the name Alcoholics Anonymous was first used 4/18/2007 6:22:00 AM


Hi Arnello



The earliest source reference I have found

containing the term "Alcoholics anonymous" is

a transcription of a letter from Bill W to

Dr Bob written circa April - June 1938 nearly

a year prior to publication of the Big Book.



The copy of the transcription is from the GSO

Archives (and marked as such) and was obtained

from the estate of a now deceased past Delegate

and Trustee from my area. The GSO Archives

filing references hand written on the document

state "38-25" "(#25-#30)" "Fd" "X R.28" "57"



In the letter Bill advises Dr Bob that two

chapters of the book have been dictated and

mimeographed (an introduction and his story)

and were included for Dr Bob to review together

with an outline for the remaining chapters.



The letter is also significant in that Bill

suggests to Dr Bob that his wife Anne write the

chapter "portraying the wife of an alcoholic."



On pages 4 and 5 of the letter Bill wrote



"... By the way, you might all be thinking

up a good title. Nearly everyone agrees that

we should sign the volume, Alcoholics Anonymous.

Titles such as 'Haven, One Hundred Men, Comes

the Dawn, etc.' have been suggested.



What would you think about the formation of a

charitable corporation to be called, let us

say, "Alcoholics Anonymous."



In other sources Lois W (in "Lois Remembers"

p 197) states that the term "Alcoholics Anonymous"

was first used in June 1938.



"Pass It On" (p 202) claims the first documented

use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was

in a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs

Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller

Foundation" inviting them to attend a Clinton

Street meeting at Bill's home and that the

members will waive the requirement that

qualified them for "Alcoholics Anonymous."



"Pass It On" also claims that Dr Esther L

Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a July 18,

1938 letter that Bill W, at that time, was

using the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" both

as the working title of the book and as the

name of the Fellowship.



The story "A Different Slant" is by Harry B

who was the second "Class B" Alcoholic

Foundation Board Chairman appointed in January

1939. He had to resign in December 1939 after

he returned to drinking. The first (and prior)

alcoholic Board Chair was Bill R who was

appointed in August 1938 and had to resign

a few months later because he too returned

to drinking.



Harry B sobered up in 1938 and would likely

have been aware of the name being bandied

about in NY.



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
4260 Debi Ubernosky
RE: conference-approved/structure conference-approved/structure 4/18/2007 12:09:00 AM


From Debi Ubernosky and Past Delegate Bob McK.



- - - -



From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@verizon.net>

(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)



Thank you Tracy!



Let me just add that the Delegate in my Area

is diligent about providing us the background

information on what will be voted on at the

upcoming conference. We just held our Area

Assembly this past weekend at which we held

Round Tables to go over all of these items

and give our Delegate a group conscience on

what we thought about each one.



If a person studies the Twelve Concepts for

Service and the Warranties in the Service

Manual, they will find something called

Right of Decision. That's what we elect

Delegates to do for us. If you have an

on-the-ball Delegate, they will be sure

you get to review the material.



The sad case is that about 90% of the members

of AA do not give one damn about what happens

at Area Assembly, much less a group conscience,

nor do they want to hear your report about it,

or sacrifice any of their sober lives/time

participating. That is my experience in

16+ years of sobriety and involvement in

service.



Debi U.

sober right here in Aggieland, TX

since 11-25-90



- - - -



From: "Bob McK." <bobnotgod2@att.net>

(bobnotgod2 at att.net)



I would like to add my experience as a Panel

47 member of the Grapevine Committee. The

previous year the committee endorsed, and

the Conference approved, development of a

pamphlet describing the AA Grapevine. This

task was then assigned to a writer, in this

case the Grapevine managing editor.



This document was then reviewed by the respon-

sible Trustee's Committee (in the case of the

Grapevine, this is actually the Grapevine

Board) prior to its submission as background

material to the Conference Committee in late

February.



While each delegate need only receive the

background material for their own committee,

they are entitled to receive ALL the back-

ground material for all committees. I did,

as did the other 3 Ohio delegates. This then

was a stack of paper around one-foot tall.

We made copies of the items the area officers

felt more pertinent to group review and

distributed these to "committees" at our

area Mini-Conferences. The text of the

proposed pamphlet was viewed by a lot of

GSRs, DCMs, etc. in our Ohio areas.



While I represented area 54 (NE Ohio), I

also attended the gathering from area 53

(Central & SE Ohio). They were particularly

critical of the proposed pamphlet and offered

many suggestions for revision.



When the Grapevine Committee met at the

April General Service Conference we were

not content with the pamphlet as submitted.

The editor offered an on-the-spot rewrite

to our suggestions and returned shortly

with revised text which we unanimously

approved. The Conference then approved the

revised text sight unseen. I would like to

think that they did that because they trusted

us to get it right, but it is also possible

that they did not view this particular pamphlet

as all that important. Perhaps both are true.

It is simply not practical for the Conference to

act as a committee-of-the-whole on all issues.



And this pamphlet -- The AA Grapevine: Our

Meeting in Print (P-52), unlike the main body

of the Big Book, is not frozen in stone. As

Conference-Approved literature, any substantial

change to the text needs Conference approval

also and it got it in 2002 and 2004.



By Concept One our whole Fellowship has final

responsibility and ultimate authority, but

the practical application of this also

involves judicious application of Concept

Two (delegation) and Concept Three (Right of

Decision). This only works well if careful

attention is paid to Concept Nine (Choosing

our Leaders).


0 -1 0 0
4261 oys.jerry5672
Camel Pins Camel Pins 4/18/2007 6:03:00 PM


I visited Johantegens Jewelers today and

chatted with the two grandsons. They thought

their Grandfather started making the Camel

Pins in the 1930's. However there was no one

sober in Alcoholics Anonymous at that time in

Minneapolis and there were no meetings of

Alcoholics Anonymous being held at that time

in Minneapolis. Thus there would have been

no need for them. As I mentioned earlier

Frank B. was Sober and attened meetings at

the Mother Club (Now known as 2218). Frank B.

and their Grandfather together designed the

Camel Pin. Their Grandfather made the mold

for the pin and they continue to make them

at the present time. They make two of them.

One is Gold Plated and the other one is Gold

Filled. The body is Brown in color with 24

in the center.



In Service



Jerry Oys



______________________________



P.S. Johantegen Jewelers opened their doors

in 1896. They were located at 628 West

Broadway in North Minneapolis, MN. and have

been owned & operated by the Johantegen

family ever since. As mentioned in my earlier

message they are currently located in Crystal,

Minnesota. I found my father's camel pin

that he received in 1958 last week and took

it with me today on my visit. They compared

it to one that their Grandfather made early

on. There are slight differences between the

two and the slight differences have continued

through the years. However the size 3/8 x 3/8

of an inch has remained consistent through

the years.


0 -1 0 0
4262 joegarcia06
Re: Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity 4/18/2007 11:32:00 PM


The aabibliography website has a page about

Lewis Presnall and his book, "The Search for

Serenity":





http://www.aabibliography.com/aaphotohtml/wlskd8.html





Joe Garcia


0 -1 0 0
4263 Bob S.
Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous 4/19/2007 1:14:00 AM


When was the name Alcoholics Anonymous first

used? Bob S. reminds us of the Cleveland

claim. But see Messages 4258 and 4259 first,

to understand part of the problem.



- - - -



(1) SPRING 1939: the Foreword to Second Edition

says AFTER the publication of the Big Book,

which would mean not until Spring 1939.



- - - -



(2) SUMMER 1938:



Letter from Bill W. to Dr. Bob (circa April

to June 1938), says that "Nearly everyone

agrees that we should sign the volume,

Alcoholics Anonymous." This meant, not the

title, NOT the official name of their group,

but how the authorship would be given on the

title page.



Lois W (in "Lois Remembers" p. 197) states

however that the term "Alcoholics Anonymous"

was first used in June 1938.



"Pass It On" (p 202) claims the first documented

use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was

in a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs

Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller

Foundation" inviting them to attend a Clinton

Street meeting at Bill's home and that the

members will waive the requirement that

qualified them for 'Alcoholics Anonymous.'"



"Pass It On" also claims that Dr Esther L

Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a July 18,

1938 letter that Bill W, at that time, was

using the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" both

as the working title of the book and as the

name of the Fellowship.



Also in Harry Brick's story in the Big Book,

"A Different Slant," he says, "The doctor at

this hospital told me vaguely of the work of

men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous

and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon

me." Since Harry probably got sober in June

1938, this also suggests that the members of

the AA group he contacted were calling them-

selves an "Alcoholics Anonymous" group, even

if only at a casual and unofficial level.



- - - -



(3) CLEVELAND -- SPRING 1939



Now comes the Cleveland claim, which

Bob S. reminds us of:



"Bob S." <rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)



Clarence Snyder started Cleveland Ohio's first

AA meeting on May 11th, 1939 - about one month

after the BB was published - and referred to

it as an 'Alcoholics Anonymous' group. He

stated in one of his audio recordings that

this was the first meeting to be referred

to as such.



- - - -



A comment or two from Glenn C. (South Bend,

Indiana):



One of the things that has to be remembered

here, is that Clarence was the leader in

getting the last ties broken between the

recovering alcoholics and the Oxford Group.

Bill W. had already broken the tie (in some

ways, it may have been more a case of the

Oxford Group pushing him and his little

group of alcoholics out whether they wanted

to cut the tie with the Oxford Group or not).



But Dr. Bob was still clinging tightly to the

Oxford Group connection in Akron, which meant

that, not just in Akron, but every place else

in the country, including Cleveland, people

regarded the little groups which were working

the twelve steps as part of the Oxford Group.

And that meant that, even in Cleveland where

Clarence was, Roman Catholic priests were

telling alcoholics that they could not join

the new twelve step group, because it was

part of the Protestant evangelical movement

called the Oxford Group.



As long as any major part of the twelve step

movement was still hanging onto the Oxford

Group connection, the movement as a whole was

still going to be regarded as a Protestant

evangelical cult. It didn't do any good to

tell the Roman Catholic Church in Cleveland

that "we've broken from them in New York"

when it was perfectly obvious that the Akron

branch, which was much bigger and more tightly

organized than the New York group, was still

calling itself part of the Oxford Group. That

would be like saying "we aren't really a

Communist front group because only two thirds

of our members are Communists" (or whatever).



Clarence was the one who finally got through

to Dr. Bob, and forced the final official break

between the twelve step people and the Oxford

Group. And although the people who were getting

sober by following the method worked out by

Bill W. and Dr. Bob may have been referring

to themselves unofficially or casually as

"alcoholics anonymous," it wasn't the official

and formal name of the group yet. When Clarence

started publicizing the meetings in Cleveland

as "meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous" (its own

separate group, having nothing to do with the

Oxford Group any longer, anywhere in the

country), it could be argued that this was

where a totally autonomous and separate

Alcoholics Anonymous movement finally began

operating under that official name.



So it strikes me that there was a point to

what Clarence said. But it is also the case

that whatever date we give is largely a

matter of definition. Official or unofficial?

Casual or formal? First partial break or

final unequivocal split from the OG? In

private correspondence, or in public announce-

ments in newspapers and mimeographed flyers

and other more public media?



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
4264 ROGER WHEATLEY
AA history book never published AA history book never published 4/18/2007 11:36:00 AM


I am aware rumors are not history, but maybe

someone can confirm, deny, or validate this

point.



I heard once that there was an AA history book

being considered by AAWS and delegates were

provided copies for review. There were factual

errors or contentious points in the book and

the project was abandoned. However, some copies

were bootlegged and exist out there somewhere

today of this never published history of AA's

first 50 or so years.



Anyone shed some historical light on this

story that was once passed on to me?



Roger



- - - -



From: Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

<glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



The manuscript you are speaking of does in

fact exist. It was written by Bob P., see

http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html#rigid

for something about this very good man,

who gave us wonderful service in AA.



It is not violating the Fair Use provisions

of U.S. copyright law for individuals to have

a personal copy of Bob's work, which

they use for their own personal research.

That's why they have photocopying machines

in nearly all American public and university

libraries.



So it would not be fair to describe these

copies as "bootlegged."



The problem is that the manuscript has a lot

of fascinating and extremely useful informa-

tion about a lot of things, but gets a whole

lot of other things hopelessly garbled. So

I have observed some good AA historians

making use of some of Bob P.'s information

on occasion, but it wouldn't be a good book

for general AA use. The average AA member

wouldn't know how to spot the places where

Bob got it wrong.



Last year, at the AA Archives and History

Gathering in eastern Pennsylvania, there was

a panel discussion on the issue of whether

a history like Bob P. attempted could in

fact be written. The position I took was

that a whole lot more histories needed to

be written first on the various component

parts of the story, before anyone would be

able to fit them all together into a single

giant historical account. In fact, I argued

that even then, there was no way that one

single invidual could master that much AA

history, and that such a work might have to

be done with twenty or more AA historians each

writing sections on their area of expertise

(like the Cambridge Ancient History and the

Cambridge Medieval History).



http://hindsfoot.org/penntalk.html, see the

sections towards the end on "National A.A.

history" and "Can a history of A.A. from

1955 to 2000 be written today?"



It has been mentioned in a lot of past messages

in the AAHistoryLovers, because, as I noted,

some of our best AA historians find that Bob

P.'s book has some extremely useful information

in it in a number of places, including

material on topics covered nowhere else:



Message 4250: an unpublished AA history book

by former GSO General Manager Bob P.



Message 3711 refers to "Bob P's aborted (by

the Conference) manuscript of a history of AA

from 1955 to 1985."



Message 2884: "Excerpt from: Unpublished

manuscript 'AA World History' (1985) by Bob P."



Message 2285 from Rick T., Illinois: "I need

to inform the group that Bob Pearson's AA

history book was much more about the history

of the General Service Office than specific

growth of selected cities and AA "Chapters."

In my own view of the draft manuscript, the

scope of specific cities' growth was not

covered extremely well in it. I learned a

great deal about the GSO relation to the

General Service Conference, and Bob P. did

write about trends in AA with a keen insight.

His book was never published, but was severely

compromised from photocopying by 1988s

Delegates, which means that there are

unauthorized copies of it floating around.



Message 1826: "My sources for the history

of AA's growth around the country include

Bob P.'s never-released Non-Approved History

of Alcoholics Anonymous 1957-1985. The

title is a bit of a misnomer, as it covers

quite a lot of facts from 1939 to 1985."



Also Messages 3150, 3146, 2847, 2808, 2221,

1975, 1691, 858, 114.


0 -1 0 0
4265 Glenn F. Chesnut
Re: AA history book: correction to previous message AA history book: correction to previous message 4/19/2007 3:18:00 PM


Correction in the URL given to the article on

the difficulty of a single person writing a

history telling the whole story of AA in the

twentieth century. Click on this and it will

work:



> http://hindsfoot.org/penntalk.html , see the

> sections towards the end on "National A.A.

> history" and "Can a history of A.A. from

> 1955 to 2000 be written today?"


0 -1 0 0
4266 David Jones
RE: Camel Pins Camel Pins 4/19/2007 2:49:00 PM


You can obtain camel lapel pins of the latter

type (brown body with 24 centre) at HYPERLINK

"http://www.recoveryemporium.com"

www.recoveryemporium.com. for approx $2.25

I have been giving them out as birthday gifts

at my home group.



God bless

Dave







I visited Johantegens Jewelers today and

chatted with the two grandsons. They thought

their Grandfather started making the Camel

Pins in the 1930's. However there was no one

sober in Alcoholics Anonymous at that time in

Minneapolis and there were no meetings of

Alcoholics Anonymous being held at that time

in Minneapolis. Thus there would have been

no need for them. As I mentioned earlier

Frank B. was Sober and attened meetings at

the Mother Club (Now known as 2218). Frank B.

and their Grandfather together designed the

Camel Pin. Their Grandfather made the mold

for the pin and they continue to make them

at the present time. They make two of them.

One is Gold Plated and the other one is Gold

Filled. The body is Brown in color with 24

in the center.



In Service



Jerry Oys



P.S. Johantegen Jewelers opened their doors

in 1896. They were located at 628 West

Broadway in North Minneapolis, MN. and have

been owned & operated by the Johantegen

family ever since. As mentioned in my earlier

message they are currently located in Crystal,

Minnesota. I found my father's camel pin

that he received in 1958 last week and took

it with me today on my visit. They compared

it to one that their Grandfather made early

on. There are slight differences between the

two and the slight differences have continued

through the years. However the size 3/8 x 3/8

of an inch has remained consistent through

the years.


0 -1 0 0
4267 Bent Christensen
National Archives Workshop National Archives Workshop 4/18/2007 1:06:00 AM


Hi there



I'm a little curious about the AA National

Archives Workshop.



Being a member that finds our history very

interesting and vital for the future of our

fellowship, who has absolutely nothing to do

with research or preservation etc., and only

limited knowledge about the details in our

history; I wonder if attending would make any

sense.



If a member of the group will share a little

about the format and content of previous

Workshops and tell who, in their opinion,

would benefit from attending, it will be

highly appreciated.



Thanks

Bent



Alt i én. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notesblok.



- - - -



See Message 4064:



Complete List of the National Archives Workshops



1st 1996 Akron



2nd 1997 Akron



3rd 1998 Akron



4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois



5th 2000 Seattle, Washington



6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana

(across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky)



7th 2002 San Bernardino, California



8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida



9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee

(about forty miles from Nashville)



10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana

(originally set for New Orleans,

but the hurricane struck in 2005)



11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona


0 -1 0 0
4268 ricktompkins
RE: AA history book never published AA history book never published 4/19/2007 11:53:00 PM


Hi Group and hello Roger,

Don't forget the "Collected Observations of AA" manuscript that may

still be available in excerpt form from the AA Archives at GSO. These sets

of monographs come from the 'second' Conference submittal of an AA history

book that the 1993 Conference Literature Committee declined to recommend

publishing (Bob P.'s seminal work was submitted to Delegates in 1987).

There was no 1993 Advisory Action against publishing the second

manuscript, only the Literature Committee's recommendation of "taking no

action" on it.

A close friend who served as Indiana Area 22 Delegate and was seated on that

Conference Literature Committee shared that the book was just not up to AA

expectations...others on the Literature and Archives committees at that time

shared the same view.

Two sets of authors worked on this second manuscript, and after the

Conference declined to proceed with the project, it was reported (rumored)

that the General Service Board balked on paying them. The authors eventually

got paid their contracted amount of $2-300,000 for four years of work.

Unfortunately the professional writers could not bring a needed continuity

to the work and the manuscript remained with Trustees Literature for editing

over the next few years. Trustees Literature Committee then recommended that

what was left of it be placed in the AA Archives. Another good friend, a

past Chicago Delegate who was an Appointed Committee Member to Trustees

Literature, assisted with the editing and he shared that much of the

erroneous information and extraneous stuff was discarded.

Frank M., AA Archivist at GSO (1982-1996), reported the consensus of the

Trustees Archives Committee in 1995 that excerpts of the book could be

released to Fellowship members who had an interest in copies, but only

excerpts relating to the geographical area of the requestors would be

considered. "Collected Observations" is the stripped-down second history

book's final title. He sent me 25 pages on history of the East Central

Region and while the Illinois details were scattered and not as factual as

could have been, the reading was difficult because it dropped so many

names---ones that may have been relevant (and almost impossible to

recognize, for example Conrad O. from Illinois) and others that were large

errors of omission (inaccuracies about the Chicago Group). At the time I

joked with him that these excerpts came across like chapters that could have

been included with Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers.

"Not up to Fellowship expectations" also points to the scope of the

book: it was not an AA history that continued where AA Comes of Age left off

(1957) and there was no tie-in to the then-present 1990s.



My last two bits on this thread of AAWS books on AA history never published:

The Fellowship cherishes Bill W.'s AA Comes of Age and many AAs

(including me) also cherish Ernest Kurtz' independently published Not-God as

the two most comprehensive works on AA history. Both are awesomely beautiful

works. Two more AAWS histories, Pass It On and Dr. Bob and the Good

Oldtimers, rate close behind them. The latest archival work, AAWS'

Experience, Strength and Hope, was published in 2002---all four of these

would be quite a gift set to anyone interested in AA history. And, how many

independently published AA biographies are available today? Dozens.

It's unfortunate that Bob P.'s effort failed to develop to a

Conference-approved level, but it was a history generally focused on 50

years, especially where Bill's AA Comes of Age left off.

The second 1989-93 effort now titled "Collected Observations of

Alcoholics Anonymous" was AAWS' last attempt at pre-publication AA history

manuscript review.



Can any future AA history proposal and/or manuscript pass the muster of the

General Service Conference?

Of course, someday...at least I strongly believe it will happen.

Incidentally, the Conference Policy & Admissions Committee discussed one

Area's request for consideration on a new attempt at an AA history book in

2005 (2006?) but the committee took no action; perhaps there was no

groundswell of support since the second history book's costly demise and the

request failed to blossom that year. But as we say (and quote regularly),

"More will be revealed."

Love and serenity to you all,

Rick T., Illinois





From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ROGER WHEATLEY

Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:36 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA history book never published











I am aware rumors are not history, but maybe

someone can confirm, deny, or validate this

point.



I heard once that there was an AA history book

being considered by AAWS and delegates were

provided copies for review. There were factual

errors or contentious points in the book and

the project was abandoned. However, some copies

were bootlegged and exist out there somewhere

today of this never published history of AA's

first 50 or so years.



.



<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=6460000/grpspId=1705237878/msgId

=4264/stime=1177009687/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4269 Arthur S
RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous 4/20/2007 10:38:00 AM [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob S.

Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:14 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Cleveland's claim: first use of the name

Alcoholics Anonymous



When was the name Alcoholics Anonymous first

used? Bob S. reminds us of the Cleveland

claim. But see Messages 4258 and 4259 first,

to understand part of the problem.



- - - -



(1) SPRING 1939: the Foreword to Second Edition

says AFTER the publication of the Big Book,

which would mean not until Spring 1939.



- - - -



(2) SUMMER 1938:



Letter from Bill W. to Dr. Bob (circa April

to June 1938), says that "Nearly everyone

agrees that we should sign the volume,

Alcoholics Anonymous." This meant, not the

title, NOT the official name of their group,

but how the authorship would be given on the

title page.



Lois W (in "Lois Remembers" p. 197) states

however that the term "Alcoholics Anonymous"

was first used in June 1938.



"Pass It On" (p 202) claims the first documented

use of the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" was

in a July 15, 1938 letter from Bill W to "Messrs

Richardson, Chipman and Scott of the Rockefeller

Foundation" inviting them to attend a Clinton

Street meeting at Bill's home and that the

members will waive the requirement that

qualified them for 'Alcoholics Anonymous.'"



"Pass It On" also claims that Dr Esther L

Richards (of Johns Hopkins) stated in a July 18,

1938 letter that Bill W, at that time, was

using the name "Alcoholics Anonymous" both

as the working title of the book and as the

name of the Fellowship.



Also in Harry Brick's story in the Big Book,

"A Different Slant," he says, "The doctor at

this hospital told me vaguely of the work of

men who called themselves Alcoholics Anonymous

and asked if I wanted one of them to call upon

me." Since Harry probably got sober in June

1938, this also suggests that the members of

the AA group he contacted were calling them-

selves an "Alcoholics Anonymous" group, even

if only at a casual and unofficial level.



- - - -



(3) CLEVELAND -- SPRING 1939



Now comes the Cleveland claim, which

Bob S. reminds us of:



"Bob S." <rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)



Clarence Snyder started Cleveland Ohio's first

AA meeting on May 11th, 1939 - about one month

after the BB was published - and referred to

it as an 'Alcoholics Anonymous' group. He

stated in one of his audio recordings that

this was the first meeting to be referred

to as such.



- - - -



A comment or two from Glenn C. (South Bend,

Indiana):



One of the things that has to be remembered

here, is that Clarence was the leader in

getting the last ties broken between the

recovering alcoholics and the Oxford Group.

Bill W. had already broken the tie (in some

ways, it may have been more a case of the

Oxford Group pushing him and his little

group of alcoholics out whether they wanted

to cut the tie with the Oxford Group or not).



But Dr. Bob was still clinging tightly to the

Oxford Group connection in Akron, which meant

that, not just in Akron, but every place else

in the country, including Cleveland, people

regarded the little groups which were working

the twelve steps as part of the Oxford Group.

And that meant that, even in Cleveland where

Clarence was, Roman Catholic priests were

telling alcoholics that they could not join

the new twelve step group, because it was

part of the Protestant evangelical movement

called the Oxford Group.



As long as any major part of the twelve step

movement was still hanging onto the Oxford

Group connection, the movement as a whole was

still going to be regarded as a Protestant

evangelical cult. It didn't do any good to

tell the Roman Catholic Church in Cleveland

that "we've broken from them in New York"

when it was perfectly obvious that the Akron

branch, which was much bigger and more tightly

organized than the New York group, was still

calling itself part of the Oxford Group. That

would be like saying "we aren't really a

Communist front group because only two thirds

of our members are Communists" (or whatever).



Clarence was the one who finally got through

to Dr. Bob, and forced the final official break

between the twelve step people and the Oxford

Group. And although the people who were getting

sober by following the method worked out by

Bill W. and Dr. Bob may have been referring

to themselves unofficially or casually as

"alcoholics anonymous," it wasn't the official

and formal name of the group yet. When Clarence

started publicizing the meetings in Cleveland

as "meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous" (its own

separate group, having nothing to do with the

Oxford Group any longer, anywhere in the

country), it could be argued that this was

where a totally autonomous and separate

Alcoholics Anonymous movement finally began

operating under that official name.



So it strikes me that there was a point to

what Clarence said. But it is also the case

that whatever date we give is largely a

matter of definition. Official or unofficial?

Casual or formal? First partial break or

final unequivocal split from the OG? In

private correspondence, or in public announce-

ments in newspapers and mimeographed flyers

and other more public media?



Glenn C.







Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4270 Jayaa82@earthlink.net
RE: National Archives Workshop National Archives Workshop 4/20/2007 6:30:00 AM


The workshops are aimed both at experienced

archivists and rank beginners. We always have

workshops on the basics of preservation, etc.

so if you are interested in learning more it

would make a lot of sense. Plus, you can

"pick the brains" of archivists from all over

the country and you will learn mucho!



Someone interested in our history but not the

nuts and bolts of archives work would get

less out of the workshop but you still could

learn much about our history. I guess it

depends on how far you would be traveling.





> [Original Message]

> From: Bent Christensen <bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>

> To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

> Date: 4/19/2007 3:53:58 PM

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] National Archives Workshop

>

> Hi there

>

> I'm a little curious about the AA National

> Archives Workshop.

>

> Being a member that finds our history very

> interesting and vital for the future of our

> fellowship, who has absolutely nothing to do

> with research or preservation etc., and only

> limited knowledge about the details in our

> history; I wonder if attending would make any

> sense.

>

> If a member of the group will share a little

> about the format and content of previous

> Workshops and tell who, in their opinion,

> would benefit from attending, it will be

> highly appreciated.

>

> Thanks

> Bent

>

> Alt i én. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og notesblok.

>

> - - - -

>

> See Message 4064:

>

> Complete List of the National Archives Workshops

>

> 1st 1996 Akron

>

> 2nd 1997 Akron

>

> 3rd 1998 Akron

>

> 4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois

>

> 5th 2000 Seattle, Washington

>

> 6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana

> (across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky)

>

> 7th 2002 San Bernardino, California

>

> 8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida

>

> 9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee

> (about forty miles from Nashville)

>

> 10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana

> (originally set for New Orleans,

> but the hurricane struck in 2005)

>

> 11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona


0 -1 0 0
4271 James Blair
Re: AA history book never published AA history book never published 4/19/2007 3:22:00 PM


Bob Pearson's unpublished history of AA and

another one, Charles Hanson's unpublished

history of AA.



- - - -



From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



Roger wrote

> There were factual errors or contentious

> points in the book and the project was

> abandoned.



A friend of mine was a trustee when this

history book project was shut down. I had a

long discussion with him about it and the

reason he gave me was that the manuscript

was incomplete and much more work needed to

be done on the local histories within each

state and province as well as the international

histories. The cost to complete it was judged

to be to great.



I have never found a factual error or con-

tentious point in the manuscript but of

course history often has more than one set

of facts.



There was also a history book written by

Charles Hanson and it was to be used as a

50th Anniversary publication but it was

judged to be "too general."



Jim


0 -1 0 0
4272 Ken WENTZ
Cleveland, Texas, and Florida AA Cleveland, Texas, and Florida AA 4/20/2007 11:52:00 PM


"AA started in Texas (February 1940) as a result

of a Cleveland member (Larry J) taking a job

with the Houston Press and publishing a series

of editorials about AA. Those editorials also

became AA's first published pamphlet."



From message 4269

"Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com)



- - - -



Regarding the long line of AA to start as a

result of the Cleveland group, Larry J.'s

article written in Texas was read and responded

to by Sgt. Roy Y., who was then transferred

to the Tampa-St. Pete area and as a result ALL

of AA in this area of Florida( Clearwater,

Tampa, St. Pete) was actually born out of that

article, via Roy starting meetings with some

other locals.



The 301(Clearwater Group) traces its roots to

Roy and just celebrated its 62nd anniversary

March 21,2007.



Thanks Ken W. Clearwater Fla.


0 -1 0 0
4273 Tom Hickcox
Re: National Archives Workshop National Archives Workshop 4/21/2007 11:28:00 AM


At 00:06 4/18/2007 , Bent Christensen wrote

asking about the National Archives Workshops.



I hosted the hospitality suite last year at

the meeting here in Baton Rouge one afternoon

and I can say I learned a lot just listening

to the knowledgeable folk talk.



The exhibits were really nice, too.



It's a nice bunch and you are likely to learn

a lot whether you intend to or not. <bg>



Tommy in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4274 Cliff Diable
Historical recordings Historical recordings 4/21/2007 7:12:00 PM


Having recently read ( and re-read) bio's and

autobio's of the giants of AA, I'd like very

much to actually hear some of the great speeches

I've read, and heard about. Any one have a link

or, perhaps info when I can listen to "My Heros"??



Interested in Bill, Lois, Dr. Bob, Nell Wing,

Ebby, Drs. Silkworth, Shoemaker and  Tiebeau

as well as others.



Thanks!!

Cliff Diable

Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
4275 G Rohde
Charles Hanson''s unpublished AA history Charles Hanson''s unpublished AA history 4/21/2007 8:08:00 PM


Hello One and all, I hope this finds everyone

well and in good spirits.



Anyone have a PDF copy of the book written

by Charles Hanson?



The one Bob Pearson did was good for such a

hard project. I sure would like to compare

them seeing as how I have read Bob P's attempt.



Thank You



Gary



*********************************



PLEASE CLICK HERE TO CONTACT GARY

DIRECTLY AT HIS EMAIL ADDRESS:



<feelgoodcp@gmail.com> (feelgoodcp at gmail.com)



*********************************



On 4/19/07, James Blair <jblair%40videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)

mentioned Charles Hanson's unpublished AA

history as well as Bob Pearson's history:



> There was also a history book written by

> Charles Hanson and it was to be used as a

> 50th Anniversary publication but it was

> judged to be "too general."


0 -1 0 0
4276 Glenn Chesnut
National Archives Workshops: a typical program National Archives Workshops: a typical program 4/22/2007 11:53:00 AM


This is a program from the past (taken from

the planning committee's records), but this

general format has been fairly typical of the

National Archives Workshops:



6th NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOP

SEPTEMBER 27-30, 2001

Clarksville, Indiana / Louisville, Kentucky



"Our Window on the Past, Guide to the Present,

and Light for the Future"



Holiday Inn Lakeview (Louisville North),

Clarksville, Indiana



**************************



FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 28

7:00 a.m. A.A. meeting

7:30-9 a.m. breakfast



- - - -



9:00-11:30 a.m. KATHY SMITH (Vanderbilt

University, Nashville, Tennessee),

"Introduction to Archival Procedures"



- - - -



11:30-1:00 p.m. lunch



- - - -



1:00-5:00 p.m. BOB WILLIAMS (Maumelle, Arkansas)

on advanced archival and preservation procedures



- - - -



5:00-6:30 p.m. dinner



6:30-10 p.m. Floyd Parker (Frankton, Indiana,

co-chair of the workshop planning committee):

general introduction.



Longtimers Panel, two longtimers from each

hosting Area, chaired by Frank Nyikos (Area

22 Archivist, Syracuse, Indiana, secretary/

treasurer of the workshop planning committee):

Areas 20, 22, 23, 26, and 56, plus Area 64

(Chuck E., over 50 years, and Billy S.,

almost 50 years, oldest living delegate)



- - - -



9:30 p.m. JUDIT SANTON, New York A.A.

Archivist: specific kinds of correspondence

in the New York archives, plus perhaps

something on the importance of oral

histories.



- - - -



10:00 p.m. ice cream social



**************************



SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 29

7:00 a.m. A.A. meeting

7:45-8:45 a.m. breakfast



- - - -



9:00-10:15 a.m.



Policy, ethics, A.A. principles:

JUDIT SANTON (New York A.A. Archivist)

GAIL LaC. (Akron A.A. Archives)

Plus one other person (on the internet)



Funding an A.A. archives:

JIM E. (Area 19)



Publishing an Area history:

WANDA B. (Area 26 Archivist, Lexington, Kentucky)



- - - -



10:30-11:45 a.m.



Linkage and outreach:

JERRY P. (Sycamore IL), first Conference

Archives Chair



A.A. authors and history:

GLENN CHESNUT (Indiana University, South Bend),

"Indiana's Own A.A. Author: Ralph Pfau (Father

John Doe) and the Golden Books"

Father Ralph's life, Indiana places linked with

him in the immediate vicinity of Clarksville

where we are meeting, and his work in A.A.



Database and retrieval methods:

JAY M. (Akron Intergroup)



- - - -

11:45-1:30 p.m. lunch

- - - -



1:30-3:30 p.m. JIM DORRYCOTT (Area 64

Archivist), slide show with photographs

of the newly built Area 64 Tennessee A.A.

Archives



- - - -



3:45-5 p.m. Area Capsule Histories from

our part of the country: how A.A. began

and notable events.

Area 23: Kenny B.

Area 22: Glenn C., member of the workshop

planning committee

Area 64: Charley M.

Area 26: Wanda B., member of the workshop

planning committee

Area 20: Rick T., program chair of the

workshop planning committee

Area 56: John from Ohio



- - - -



5:00 p.m. business meeting, chaired by Frank

Nyikos (Area 22 Archivist, Syracuse, Indiana),

secretary/treasurer of the workshop planning

committee



- - - -

6:30-7:30 p.m. banquet

- - - -



8:15 p.m. FIRST KEYNOTE SPEAKER



BILL D., Memphis, Tennessee (over 46 years in

the program - - spoke at Minneapolis - - got

sober in New York in the early 1950's, went

to the meeting Bill W. went to there, knew

Dr. Silkworth - - he went from New York to

Texas, where he spent many years, then

retired to Memphis, where he lives now and

is active in Tennessee A.A.)



- - - -



9:15 p.m. SECOND KEYNOTE SPEAKER



BILL WHITE (Bloomington, Illinois), author

of "Slaying the Dragon," the leading expert

on the history of alcoholism treatment in

America. A talk illustrated with slides

showing photographs of alcoholism treatment

centers from the nineteenth and early

twentieth centuries.



**************************



SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 30



7:00 a.m. A.A. meeting



7:30-9:00 a.m. breakfast



9:00-11:45 a.m. Closing Session

Conference Archives Committee Report,

Trustees Archives Committee Report,

Ask-It-Basket, 2001 Preliminary Report

Planning Guide Presentation, Jack O.

(Joliet, Illinois, Conference Archives

Committee), Service Sharing



##########################



THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOPS

(from a planning committee document)



The A.A. people who come to these workshops

are all people who are actively engaged in

archival work, most of them for many years.



They include: members of Area A.A. archives

committees, District archivists, archivists at

intergroup offices, people from the New York

central office (like Judit Santon), Trustees

and Delegates who are interested in archives,

and historians working on the history of A.A.

who use archives as major sources of informa-

tion. Some of the attendees are also brand

new at their archivist's job, so some of our

topic sessions will need to be tailored for

absolutely raw, new beginners - - that's part

of our job too, though only a part.



So we've always had topic sessions on preserving

and restoring and storing old manuscripts, and

the problems in preserving old tape recordings.



Also on how to use computers in various ways

to help organize an archival collection.



Also talks by people who run local Area archi-

val repositories in places like Little Rock,

Arkansas, and so on.



We usually have a trustee or two who is

interested in archives.



We always have local oldtimers who are willing

to answer our questions about early A.A. in

their part of the country, and their own

personal experiences.



We try to have good material on A.A. history

too. So our programs include talks by experts

on A.A. history, small group meetings with

noted authors of works on A.A. history

(where we can talk to people like Mary

Darrah about their work), and so on.



We've always had major speakers at these

workshops, sometimes as many as four or five

or more. Ernie Kurtz, Mary Darrah, and

so on, spoke at the workshops in Akron.



The speakers are frequently A.A. members, but

we have had non-A.A. people speak too. For

example Dr. Bob's son Smitty, Henrietta

Seiberling's son, and a doctor and a nurse

who are part of the current alcoholism

treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital

in Akron. The National Archives Workshops

are not official A.A. events like A.A. state

conventions or miniconferences put on by local

intergroups, so the rules about non-alcoholic

speakers do not apply.



We frequently have some special event which is

tied to the history of A.A. in the place where

the workshop is held: a visit to Dr. Bob's

house (and to his and Anne's grave) at the

Akron workshops, getting to attend the huge

Chicago Open Meeting (with thousands of A.A.'s

from all over greater Chicago) at the workshop

in that city in 1999, and so on.



As archivists, we are responsible for perserv-

ing the CONTEXT in which A.A. grew and emerged,

as well as what the early A.A.'s themselves

were doing. Nobody can make good sense out

of much of what the early A.A.'s did without

knowing something about the Oxford Group,

the Washingtonians, the treatment centers

and hospitals which were trying (and failing)

to bring the "cure" to suffering alcoholics,

and so on - - as well as the love-hate rela-

tionship which developed between the A.A.

groups and the treatment centers and detox

facilities and half-way houses.



Our central focus, nevertheless, always has

to be on A.A. and its people - - the rest

is only peripheral.



These workshops are not official A.A. events,

in the sense of being put on by areas or

districts or intergroups. They are organized

by ad hoc committees.



The planning committee for the 6th National

Archives Workshop, for example, was made up

of A.A. members from Indiana, Illinois,

Kentucky, and Tennessee who were deeply

committed to A.A. archives and history.

From Indiana Area 22 we had the chair of

the archives committee, the archivist, and

the editor of the archival bulletin (Floyd P.,

Frank N., and Glenn C.). From Illinois

Area 20 we had their archivist (Rick T.).

From Tennessee Area 64 we had their archivist

(Jim Dorrycott, now deceased). From Kentucky

Area 26 we had the chair of the archives

committee (Wanda B.).


0 -1 0 0
4277 Glenn Chesnut
11th National Archives Workshop: Phoenix, Arizona 11th National Archives Workshop: Phoenix, Arizona 4/22/2007 11:57:00 AM


From: "Area64tnarchives.org"

<daggerrose@area64tnarchives.org>

(daggerrose at area64tnarchives.org)



11th Annual National Archives Workshop

Preserving Our Heritage To Pass It On

September 6 thru September 9, 2007

Sheraton Airport Hotel

Phoenix, Arizona



Greetings,

It's sneaking up on us. Make your reservations

now. Go to:



http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/

http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/NAW07.pdf



It will only take a couple minutes. Tell Vicki

Area 64 Archives sent ya.



Best Regards and See Ya in September,

Daggerrose



- - - -



FROM THE FLYER:



11 th Annual National Archives Workshop

Alcoholics Anonymous

Preserving Our Heritage to Pass It On



With Al-Anon Participation



September 6 thru 9, 2007 -- Phoenix, Arizona



Sheraton Airport Hotel

1600 S. 52nd Street

1-800-325-3535



Contacts:



Vicki Jo B. (H) 602-995-7349 / (W) 602-272-1347

happyvjb@yahoo.com

(happyvjb at yahoo.com)



Ron W. 623-934-4395

Ronw85301@aol.com

(Ronw85301 at aol.com)



***Limited Amount Of Space Available

for Archive Displays -- Advise Ahead

Of Time If Bringing Displays***


0 -1 0 0
4278 john.otis
Re: Historical recordings Historical recordings 4/22/2007 3:39:00 PM


Hi, John Otis here. I have tapes called "The

Founders Of AA" by Glenn K Audio Tapes. There

are six tapes very clear.



#1 Ebby T 9/14/58



#2 Bob S 1/01/48



#3 Bill W + Dr. Bob 1st convention Cleveland 7/28/50



#4 Bill D The Man On The Bed 1/1/50



#5 Harry T, Dr. 1/1/66



#6 Bill W. The Story Handed Down" date unknown.



I obtained them from:



http://www.glennkaudiotapes.com/



They have very clear sound. You will really

like them.



John Otis

>

> Having recently read ( and re-read) bio's and

> autobio's of the giants of AA, I'd like very

> much to actually hear some of the great speeches

> I've read, and heard about. Any one have a link

> or, perhaps info when I can listen to "My Heros"??

>

> Interested in Bill, Lois, Dr. Bob, Nell Wing,

> Ebby, Drs. Silkworth, Shoemaker and  Tiebeau

> as well as others.

>

> Thanks!!

> Cliff Diable

> Raleigh, NC

>


0 -1 0 0
4279 Mitchell K.
RE: RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/22/2007 8:30:00 PM


To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is

copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows

for the protection of the author or entity holding

copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate

holds more weight legally than the other method if

challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack

legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would

know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright

Office as it nears completion and when it is completed

submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent

out for review, the original copyright is in force and

even if the language is changed I am sure that there

might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway,

even after a copyright is secured including a

copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar

document changing the words etc. and get away with it.

What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a

concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times

but some of that confusion might lead to a greater

acceptnce by the Fellowship at large.



Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put

loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a

stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't

necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on

literature sent out for review anyway? This

"top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level.



Mitchell





--- Arthur S <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:



> Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with

> me at all over the

> years.

>

> Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any

> means, but with his

> very factual statement of the notion of "copyright

> protection" being used by

> the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an

> excuse to withhold review

> copies of literature from Delegates and Groups.

>

> Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors

> can shed some light on

> the situation on whether or not there are valid

> copyright concerns involved.

>

> To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny

> Delegates (or for that

> matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of

> literature well prior to

> its publication.

>

> Outside of Directories there is no time-critical

> aspect to any publication

> nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't

> be added on to the

> publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO

> uses a notion of a

> "work in progress" to make the entire process

> top-secret and known only to a

> select few and then claims copies of the completed

> work cannot be circulated

> in order to protect the copyright.

>

> Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review

> planned changes to the "AA

> Group" pamphlet and received the response that it

> could not be done in order

> to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't

> seem to hold water to me,

> particularly in an age of digital rights management.

>

>

> My understanding of the copyright process is that an

> author need only mark a

> work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order

> to establish initial

> legal intellectual property rights prior to going

> through the full legal

> copyright process. Is this true?

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

> -----Original Message-----

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> Of

> james.bliss@comcast.net

> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved

>

> With respect to Arthur S's statement below:

>

> There is a very limited number of people who

> even have access to the literature with its

> changes prior to the vote (substantial changes

> or new literature). The Delegates may have

> an opportunity to review the material

> immediately prior to the vote, but the actual

> changes, or new literature, is only distributed

> to the people who are on the committee for

> formal review and input, and they make

> written recommendations regarding the changes.

>

> A point of interest here is that the groups

> (and therefore individual members) have no

> access to the literature (new or significant

> changes) prior to it being approved and

> published. Sort of goes against the concept

> of AA being run by the groups.

>

> Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording)

> are often published for review to the groups.

> It is just significant changes, rewrites and

> new literature which is not. I have been

> informed this is due to a fear of copyright

> issues and the material being purloined by

> others.

>

> Jim

>

> > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

> > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

> > of literature prior to voting on it. The

> > review is usually done by a committee of

> > several Delegates. The remainder of the

> > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

> > for/against the literature based on the

> > recommendation of the committee (that's how

> > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

> > about on-line meetings and the punctuation

> > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

> > changes slipped past Conference review). While

> > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

> > a fraction of them actually gets to read it

> > prior to voting.

> >

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
4280 Glenn Chesnut
Moderator out of town April 23 to 29, 2007 Moderator out of town April 23 to 29, 2007 4/23/2007 10:06:00 AM


Hi to everybody,



I will be out of town for a week. I'll be

gone from today (Monday, April 23, 2007)

until the end of the week (Sunday evening late,

April 29, 2007).



We'll be pulling our camper and traveling

down to southern Indiana. Given where we'll be

going, I won't have any access to the internet

at any point along the way.



Fiona Dodd in County Mayo, Ireland, will be

keeping an eye on things, with the same skill

and keen eye that she always shows.



fionadodd@eircom.net (fionadodd at eircom.net)



Everybody take care.



Glenn Chesnut, Moderator


0 -1 0 0
4281 Bill Lash
AA historical recordings available here AA historical recordings available here 4/23/2007 8:22:00 AM


Good morning. I specialize in AA history

audio & video. I have over 200 recordings

of AA pioneers who came into AA in the 1930s

& 1940s plus hundreds of other AA history

recordings from the 1950s & 1960s. Please

email me directly at



barefootbill@optonline.net

(barefootbill at optonline.net)



and I'll send you a listing of what I have.

Thanks for allowing me to be of service and

God bless.



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill



P.S. - My audio website should be up & running

in about a month at www.justloveaudio.com







-----Original Message-----

From: Cliff Diable

Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Historical recordings



Having recently read ( and re-read) bio's and

autobio's of the giants of AA, I'd like very

much to actually hear some of the great speeches

I've read, and heard about. Any one have a link

or, perhaps info when I can listen to "My Heros"??



Interested in Bill, Lois, Dr. Bob, Nell Wing,

Ebby, Drs. Silkworth, Shoemaker and Tiebeau

as well as others.



Thanks!!

Cliff Diable

Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
4282 Arthur S
RE: RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/24/2007 8:45:00 AM


In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps

should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to

"clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they

cleared up.



The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the

opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda.

I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is

a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness

to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for

the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review

the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't

be done for literature (all literature).



New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group"

pamphlet, 12&12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the

rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is

done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an

example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book

could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared

the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings

with the home group.



Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference

Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to

review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the

background material). She was denied access to it until right before the

Conference floor session.



When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there

is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff

members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for

the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much

influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to

Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out

each year.



Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be

added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups,

districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature

projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from

broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the

primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all

Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says.



End of rant (Rule #62).



Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K.

Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved



To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is

copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows

for the protection of the author or entity holding

copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate

holds more weight legally than the other method if

challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack

legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would

know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright

Office as it nears completion and when it is completed

submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent

out for review, the original copyright is in force and

even if the language is changed I am sure that there

might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway,

even after a copyright is secured including a

copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar

document changing the words etc. and get away with it.

What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a

concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times

but some of that confusion might lead to a greater

acceptnce by the Fellowship at large.



Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put

loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a

stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't

necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on

literature sent out for review anyway? This

"top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level.



Mitchell





--- Arthur S <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:



> Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with

> me at all over the

> years.

>

> Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any

> means, but with his

> very factual statement of the notion of "copyright

> protection" being used by

> the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an

> excuse to withhold review

> copies of literature from Delegates and Groups.

>

> Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors

> can shed some light on

> the situation on whether or not there are valid

> copyright concerns involved.

>

> To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny

> Delegates (or for that

> matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of

> literature well prior to

> its publication.

>

> Outside of Directories there is no time-critical

> aspect to any publication

> nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't

> be added on to the

> publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO

> uses a notion of a

> "work in progress" to make the entire process

> top-secret and known only to a

> select few and then claims copies of the completed

> work cannot be circulated

> in order to protect the copyright.

>

> Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review

> planned changes to the "AA

> Group" pamphlet and received the response that it

> could not be done in order

> to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't

> seem to hold water to me,

> particularly in an age of digital rights management.

>

>

> My understanding of the copyright process is that an

> author need only mark a

> work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order

> to establish initial

> legal intellectual property rights prior to going

> through the full legal

> copyright process. Is this true?

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

> -----Original Message-----

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> Of

> james.bliss@comcast.net

> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved

>

> With respect to Arthur S's statement below:

>

> There is a very limited number of people who

> even have access to the literature with its

> changes prior to the vote (substantial changes

> or new literature). The Delegates may have

> an opportunity to review the material

> immediately prior to the vote, but the actual

> changes, or new literature, is only distributed

> to the people who are on the committee for

> formal review and input, and they make

> written recommendations regarding the changes.

>

> A point of interest here is that the groups

> (and therefore individual members) have no

> access to the literature (new or significant

> changes) prior to it being approved and

> published. Sort of goes against the concept

> of AA being run by the groups.

>

> Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording)

> are often published for review to the groups.

> It is just significant changes, rewrites and

> new literature which is not. I have been

> informed this is due to a fear of copyright

> issues and the material being purloined by

> others.

>

> Jim

>

> > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

> > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

> > of literature prior to voting on it. The

> > review is usually done by a committee of

> > several Delegates. The remainder of the

> > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

> > for/against the literature based on the

> > recommendation of the committee (that's how

> > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

> > about on-line meetings and the punctuation

> > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

> > changes slipped past Conference review). While

> > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

> > a fraction of them actually gets to read it

> > prior to voting.

> >

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>









Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4283 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... 4/23/2007 3:32:00 PM


I see that many members are jumping on the bandwagon in support of what was

done by early members in promoting AA in their own backyard. I just returned

from Akron and can positively say that AA wouldn't have been in Cleveland as

AA city #3 if Dr. Bob hadn't sent Clarence S. there. Mitchell K can provide

more insight on that .I remember reading that the name Alcoholics anonymous

was already in use but that Cleveland was the first group to apply it to a

group name.

Here in Philadelphia, Jimmy B. was the promoter of the Double A. He came

here to sell polish for the two men who were going to put Dupont out of

business with the Honor's polish Co. Bill W and Henry"Hank" Parkhurst owned

that

company and Jimmy was their salesman. Ruth Hock was the secretary. Edwin

Throckmorton Thatcher was in Philadelphia and not in touch with the NY mother

group You guessed it , they sent Jimmy the non-believer to Philadelphia to look

for Ebby , hawk some books and oh yeah to sell some automobile polish. Does

anyone have a can of that polish?

There were already sober men in the city in Feb of 1940 via the O.G. and

with the help of Dr. C Dudley Saul. They met in the Doctors office on a

regular basis. Most notable of the sober men before Jimmy came to Philadelphia

was John Park Lee.He said that Jimmy brought sponsorship and emphasized the AA

message that alcoholics were sick people. Jimmy had Bought $200.00 of the

stock,hawked the most big books, demanded "God as I understand Him" , "The only

requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking"as well as his own

story "The vicious Cycle to the Big Book. Jimmy got the medical community to

support AA as well as Judge Curtis Bok, owner of the Saturday Evening Post.

The Philadelphia Mother group, not just Jimmy, played a part in the

publication of the Jack Alexander Article which was the greatest single boost

to AA.

Jimmy helped in the creation of AA in Harrisburg, Wilmington, Baltimore and in

Washington D.C. with his childhood buddy John Henry Fitzhugh Mayo. Jimmy saw

that NY had the first clubhouse so he got the Philly boys to get the first

full service clubhouse ( a lunch counter). He had them become the 1st group to

financially support New York. They started the 1st regular visits to a

hospital(4/1940) by a group as well as the 1st regular visits to a

prison.(9/1940)

They also started the 1st monthly business meeting of a group(12/1940) and

one of the first Young peoples group .(6/1946)

Where have all the members of AA with this kind of energy and

persistence gone? If something needed to be done, you did it. Would AA and its

present

service structure be able to survive if men like Clarence S, Larry J ,Fitz M,

Jimmy B were around now and doing what they did? It kind of makes you wonder.

I'd like to hear about other cities and what AA was like there.

Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

See You in Phoenix Sept 6-9- The 11th National Archives Workshop

&

Area 29 Dist 6 Archives Workshop..Sat May 26, 12:30-5:30 P.M.

Christ Episcopal Church 220 Owensville Rd.

West River, MD.(where Jimmy B and Fitz M were raised and are now buried)

Picnic, Speakers Meeting &Historical Presentations..A great time........









************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4284 silkworthdotnet
Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... 4/24/2007 8:18:00 PM


According to Mitchell's Book,

How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997

Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in

fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first

used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May,

1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics

Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group."



However, there seems to be a little more light to shed on the subject. From a

page on the AA GSO Watch website there is the following stated:



You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 165



The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had appeared very early in the

discussion, probably in October, 1938. We do not know who first used these

words. That is questionable. As we discovered recently it appeared more than

half year earlier around March 1938. How do we know that? We read ALCOHOLICS

ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159.

"At 17 William Street, Newark, New Jersey, Henry had an office which

was the headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also had a secretary

named Ruth Hock, who was to become one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets

consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture. Each morning I traveled all

the way from Brooklyn to Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, I

began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of the coming book. As we seemed

unable to come up with any genuine outline for the publication, I worked from a

hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings. Week after week, Henry raced

around among the stock subscribers, prodding them for their installments."



One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter

headings". What was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. In fact

said a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings was a complete outline

for our book Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank Parkhurst around

March 1938. download document hank38.pdf 471kB







Chapter 1 - Being dictated -

Preface of the Book -

History of this work -

Questions & answers -

Why the Book -

What is needed -

The Program -

List of Chapters -

The aim of the book -

What is an alcoholic -

The medical chapter -

The Sales Promotion Possibilities -

In the book should be suggestions regarding

hospitalization

Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's handwriting] Hanks ideas





Click on image to enlarge 2

Why the Book It has been estimated by the Rockefeller

Foundation that there are over a

million incurable, from medical or

psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics

in the United States.

These men realize their vital

need and are desperately seeking

the answer. The book should be so

written that it will prove the

answer to these people.

The work has become so broad

that full time assistance and

direction is needed. This costs

money (which has been offered

by foundational funds) however the

alcoholics believe it should

come from within their own

experience.







Click on image to enlarge 3

Questions & Answers - 1. The question is often asked - where does the money

come from for this work?

2. How do I know this will work with me?

Why is this method better than any other religious

method? (It is not - this is only a step toward a

religious experience which should be carried forward

in christian fellowship no matter what your church)

3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct

up to these highest standards?

4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual

relapse?

5. There is so much talk about a religious experience

- what is it?







Click on image to enlarge 4

Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market -

1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller Foundation)

2. At least million non alcoholics

that have definite alcoholic

relatives

3. Every employer of 100 or

more people

4. Those that take an

academic interest. [a]

5. Two hundred & ten thousand ministers [b]

6. One hundred sixty nine thousand

physicians.

7. The total would be well

over three million prospects [c] [a] this entry was first written as

number 6,

but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the

entry was promoted with an arrow

[b] First written as "Half million ministers"

[c] The word "three" was written over "a"







Click on image to enlarge 5

Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the work -

Possibly this could be carried on

the first two pages of the book.

This history should establish

proof of success of the work

and carry hope to everyone

that reads that much.

The opening to the book

should arouse the emotion

of hope.







Click on image to enlarge 6

Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment

must be worked out.

This will acknowledge the receipt

of the enquiry [sic] and will inform

that the writer can secure the

book by mailing two dollars [d]

or through their local bookseller

who can secure from

Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.

Post Box xxxx The profits of the book are administered

by a foundation for promotion of

cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first written as "mailing a buck

for"





Click on image to enlarge 7

Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published by

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC

A NON PROFIT organization

for the promotion of

cure and understanding

of alcoholism. Profits accruing from sale

of this book will be [e] administered

by a foundation for promotion

of cure and understanding

of alcoholism. Members of

this foundation......... Post Box...

xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and changed

to "will be"



Click on image to enlarge 8

Observations - One of the easiest and most talked of

things among us is a religious experience.

I believe that this is incomprehensible to

most people. Simple & meaning words

to us - but meaningless to most of

the people that we are trying to get

this over too. - In my mind religious

experience - religion - etc - should

not be brought in. We are actually

irreligious - but we are trying to be

helpful - we have learned to be

quiet - to be more truthful - to be

more honest - to try to be more

unselfish - to make the other fellows

troubles - our troubles - and by

following four steps we most of us

have a religious experience. The fellowship -

the unselfishness - appeals to us.

I wonder if we are off the track.

A very good merchandising

procedure is to find out why

people do not buy our

products - it is good reasoning

to find out WHY - I am fearfully

afraid that we are emphasizing

religious experience when actually

that is something that follows

as a result of 1-2-3-4.

In my mind the question is not particularly

the strength of the experience as

much as the improvement over

what we were. I would ask a

man to compare himself as follows

after say a month -

#1 - as compared to 2 months ago

do you have more of a feeling

that there is a power greater

than you?

#2 - Have you cleaned out more

completely with a human being

than ever before?

#3 - Have you less bad things

behind you than ever

before

#4 Have you been





Click on image to enlarge

9

more honest with yourself & your

fellow man - Have you been

more thoughtful of people with

whom you are associated - Has

your life been cleaner both by

thought & action - Have you

looked at others less critically and

yourself more critically this past

30 days. You will never be

perfect but the question is

have you been more perfect?

Click on image to enlarge 10

Alcoholism May be best be defined to the

average person by pointing out

its leading symptoms and indicating

how these reactions differ from the

affects of alcohol on normal persons.

1. Total inability to control drinking

once drinking is started.

2. Antisocial behavior of these people

when intoxicated

A. Marked insanity

1. Little relation the - persons normal

behavior or ordinary

exuberant drinker or drunk





Publicity

Newspapers When book is nearly ready to

leave the presses a short mat

article should be sent to the

12,285 newspapers in the U.S.

This article would briefly cover

the work as it has gone to date.

Case histories would be covered.

- It possibly would be a brief

case history of the work and

announcement of the book.

At least four news bulletins

should be published at weekly

intervals, ahead of the book.



Click on image to enlarge



Here is such article -- pushed by Hank



Click on image to enlarge



Jim from silkworth.net









---------------------------------

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4285 pvttimt@aol.com
Re: RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/24/2007 5:43:00 PM


Arthur said,



"...there is no reason why an extra year could not be

added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups,

districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature

projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from

broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the

primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all

Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says."





Tim T., an alky.



I'm reminded of a situation here in New Mexico some years ago. A

well-regarded trusted servant led a project to rewrite our Area service manual,

which describes our Area's service structure, the district mapping, etc. He

bent over backwards trying to keep all districts and groups involved in an

"informed" process, fully democratic in every way.



The result of this was that, at every area assembly, the new GSRs, et. al.

who had not seen the current draft, had to have their way with it. The process

bogged down and became mostly a "bringing everyone up to speed" process at each

assembly. Progress on the actual document was excruciatingly slow.



After many, many assemblies had passed with no light at the end of the

tunnel, he appealed to the Area. Once we all realized that nothing material was

changing, that the needed changes had long since been made, approval was

achieved and we had a working tool in our hands once again.



One wonders if Arthur's claim that the groups, districts, areas should have

far more influence would not deteriorate in the same way. Are we to believe

that the delegates that are assigned to a particular committee, say Grapevine,

do not adequately represent the fellowship? Do they not have a "right of

decision?" After their work, would review by the groups, districts and areas

introduce any material changes, or would changes merely be cosmetic?



To Arthur's comment on the absurdity of equating online meetings with f2f

home groups, I wonder if the homers, loners, nursing-home AA residents, et.al.,

who must depend on the internet for their daily AA look down on this, their only

access, with the same disdain?



Best regards. Tim.







-----Original Message-----

From: ArtSheehan@msn.com

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 6:45 AM

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved





In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps

should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to

"clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they

cleared up.



The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the

opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda.

I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is

a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness

to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for

the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review

the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't

be done for literature (all literature).



New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group"

pamphlet, 12&12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the

rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is

done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an

example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book

could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared

the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings

with the home group.



Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference

Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to

review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the

background material). She was denied access to it until right before the

Conference floor session.



When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there

is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff

members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for

the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much

influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to

Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out

each year.



Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be

added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups,

districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature

projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from

broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the

primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all

Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says.



End of rant (Rule #62).



Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K.

Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved



To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is

copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows

for the protection of the author or entity holding

copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate

holds more weight legally than the other method if

challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack

legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would

know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright

Office as it nears completion and when it is completed

submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent

out for review, the original copyright is in force and

even if the language is changed I am sure that there

might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway,

even after a copyright is secured including a

copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar

document changing the words etc. and get away with it.

What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a

concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times

but some of that confusion might lead to a greater

acceptnce by the Fellowship at large.



Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put

loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a

stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't

necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on

literature sent out for review anyway? This

"top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level.



Mitchell





--- Arthur S <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:



> Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with

> me at all over the

> years.

>

> Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any

> means, but with his

> very factual statement of the notion of "copyright

> protection" being used by

> the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an

> excuse to withhold review

> copies of literature from Delegates and Groups.

>

> Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors

> can shed some light on

> the situation on whether or not there are valid

> copyright concerns involved.

>

> To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny

> Delegates (or for that

> matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of

> literature well prior to

> its publication.

>

> Outside of Directories there is no time-critical

> aspect to any publication

> nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't

> be added on to the

> publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO

> uses a notion of a

> "work in progress" to make the entire process

> top-secret and known only to a

> select few and then claims copies of the completed

> work cannot be circulated

> in order to protect the copyright.

>

> Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review

> planned changes to the "AA

> Group" pamphlet and received the response that it

> could not be done in order

> to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't

> seem to hold water to me,

> particularly in an age of digital rights management.

>

>

> My understanding of the copyright process is that an

> author need only mark a

> work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order

> to establish initial

> legal intellectual property rights prior to going

> through the full legal

> copyright process. Is this true?

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

> -----Original Message-----

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> Of

> james.bliss@comcast.net

> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved

>

> With respect to Arthur S's statement below:

>

> There is a very limited number of people who

> even have access to the literature with its

> changes prior to the vote (substantial changes

> or new literature). The Delegates may have

> an opportunity to review the material

> immediately prior to the vote, but the actual

> changes, or new literature, is only distributed

> to the people who are on the committee for

> formal review and input, and they make

> written recommendations regarding the changes.

>

> A point of interest here is that the groups

> (and therefore individual members) have no

> access to the literature (new or significant

> changes) prior to it being approved and

> published. Sort of goes against the concept

> of AA being run by the groups.

>

> Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording)

> are often published for review to the groups.

> It is just significant changes, rewrites and

> new literature which is not. I have been

> informed this is due to a fear of copyright

> issues and the material being purloined by

> others.

>

> Jim

>

> > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

> > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

> > of literature prior to voting on it. The

> > review is usually done by a committee of

> > several Delegates. The remainder of the

> > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

> > for/against the literature based on the

> > recommendation of the committee (that's how

> > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

> > about on-line meetings and the punctuation

> > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

> > changes slipped past Conference review). While

> > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

> > a fraction of them actually gets to read it

> > prior to voting.

> >

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>









Yahoo! Groups Links















Yahoo! Groups Links







________________________________________________________________________

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL

at AOL.com.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4286 Gotogo2002L@aol.com
Re: RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/24/2007 5:52:00 PM


In a message dated 4/24/07 5:01:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:









In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps

should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to

"clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they

cleared up.



The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the

opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda.

I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is

a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness

to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for

the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review

the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't

be done for literature (all literature).



New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group"

pamphlet, 12&12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the

rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is

done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an

example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book

could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared

the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings

with the home group.



Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference

Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to

review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the

background material). She was denied access to it until right before the

Conference floor session.



When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there

is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff

members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for

the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much

influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to

Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out

each year.



Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be

added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups,

districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature

projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from

broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the

primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all

Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says.



End of rant (Rule #62).



Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_

(mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com)

[mailto:_AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_

(mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of Mitchell K.

Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM

To: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_

(mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com)

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved



To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is

copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows

for the protection of the author or entity holding

copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate

holds more weight legally than the other method if

challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack

legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would

know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright

Office as it nears completion and when it is completed

submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent

out for review, the original copyright is in force and

even if the language is changed I am sure that there

might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway,

even after a copyright is secured including a

copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar

document changing the words etc. and get away with it.

What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a

concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times

but some of that confusion might lead to a greater

acceptnce by the Fellowship at large.



Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put

loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a

stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't

necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on

literature sent out for review anyway? This

"top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level.



Mitchell



--- Arthur S <_ArtSheehan@msn.Art (mailto:ArtSheehan@msn.com) > wrote:



> Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with

> me at all over the

> years.

>

> Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any

> means, but with his

> very factual statement of the notion of "copyright

> protection" being used by

> the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an

> excuse to withhold review

> copies of literature from Delegates and Groups.

>

> Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors

> can shed some light on

> the situation on whether or not there are valid

> copyright concerns involved.

>

> To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny

> Delegates (or for that

> matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of

> literature well prior to

> its publication.

>

> Outside of Directories there is no time-critical

> aspect to any publication

> nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't

> be added on to the

> publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO

> uses a notion of a

> "work in progress" to make the entire process

> top-secret and known only to a

> select few and then claims copies of the completed

> work cannot be circulated

> in order to protect the copyright.

>

> Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review

> planned changes to the "AA

> Group" pamphlet and received the response that it

> could not be done in order

> to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't

> seem to hold water to me,

> particularly in an age of digital rights management.

>

>

> My understanding of the copyright process is that an

> author need only mark a

> work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order

> to establish initial

> legal intellectual property rights prior to going

> through the full legal

> copyright process. Is this true?

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

> -----Original Message-----

> From: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_

(mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com)

> [mailto:_AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_

(mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf

> Of

> _james.bliss@james.bliss (mailto:james.bliss@comcast.net)

> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM

> To: _AAHistoryLovers@AAHistoryLovAAH_

(mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com)

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved

>

> With respect to Arthur S's statement below:

>

> There is a very limited number of people who

> even have access to the literature with its

> changes prior to the vote (substantial changes

> or new literature). The Delegates may have

> an opportunity to review the material

> immediately prior to the vote, but the actual

> changes, or new literature, is only distributed

> to the people who are on the committee for

> formal review and input, and they make

> written recommendations regarding the changes.

>

> A point of interest here is that the groups

> (and therefore individual members) have no

> access to the literature (new or significant

> changes) prior to it being approved and

> published. Sort of goes against the concept

> of AA being run by the groups.

>

> Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording)

> are often published for review to the groups.

> It is just significant changes, rewrites and

> new literature which is not. I have been

> informed this is due to a fear of copyright

> issues and the material being purloined by

> others.

>

> Jim

>

> > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

> > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

> > of literature prior to voting on it. The

> > review is usually done by a committee of

> > several Delegates. The remainder of the

> > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

> > for/against the literature based on the

> > recommendation of the committee (that's how

> > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

> > about on-line meetings and the punctuation

> > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

> > changes slipped past Conference review). While

> > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

> > a fraction of them actually gets to read it

> > prior to voting.

> >

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>



Yahoo! Groups Links











This is not my experience..............my area has a spring & Fall Assembly

where all the new proposed agenda items are listed for change and the groups

have work shops who represent each of their groups.

They then discuss the agenda items for our delegate to bring back to the

conference as our collective vote.







************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4287 Mitchell K.
Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... 4/25/2007 8:06:00 AM


Thank you. One of the several pages in a re-write for

a second edition will correct that statement. The name

Alcoholics ANonymous had been used as the title of the

proposed book, organization and as the fellowship in

general prior to April of 1939. I still believe that

the first meeting or group to call itself an

Alcoholics ANonymous group or meeting was the Golrick

Group/Cleveland Group.

There are a few other pieces I am going to clarify,

remove, expand upon and add in the re-write.



Mitchell





--- silkworthdotnet <silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com> wrote:



> According to Mitchell's Book,

> How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER

> AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN

> CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997

> Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of

> anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May

> 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which

> first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it

> took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is

> the first documented meeting which used the name

> Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the

> Oxford Group."

>

> However, there seems to be a little more light to

> shed on the subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch

> website there is the following stated:

>

> You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF

> AGE, page 165

>

> The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had

> appeared very early in the discussion, probably in

> October, 1938. We do not know who first used these

> words. That is questionable. As we discovered

> recently it appeared more than half year earlier

> around March 1938. How do we know that? We read

> ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159.

> "At 17 William Street, Newark, New

> Jersey, Henry had an office which was the

> headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also

> had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become

> one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets

> consisted of a huge desk and some plush furniture.

> Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to

> Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office,

> I began to dictate rough drafts of the chapters of

> the coming book. As we seemed unable to come up with

> any genuine outline for the publication, I worked

> from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter

> headings. Week after week, Henry raced around among

> the stock subscribers, prodding them for their

> installments."

>

> One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily

> drawn-up list of possible chapter headings". What

> was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer.

> In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible

> chapter headings was a complete outline for our book

> Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank

> Parkhurst around March 1938. download document

> hank38.pdf 471kB

>

>

>

> Chapter 1 - Being dictated -

> Preface of the Book -

> History of this work -

> Questions & answers -

> Why the Book -

> What is needed -

> The Program -

> List of Chapters -

> The aim of the book -

> What is an alcoholic -

> The medical chapter -

> The Sales Promotion Possibilities -

> In the book should be suggestions regarding

> hospitalization

> Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's

> handwriting] Hanks ideas

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge

> 2

> Why the Book It has been estimated by the

> Rockefeller

> Foundation that there are over a

> million incurable, from medical or

> psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics

> in the United States.

> These men realize their vital

> need and are desperately seeking

> the answer. The book should be so

> written that it will prove the

> answer to these people.

> The work has become so broad

> that full time assistance and

> direction is needed. This costs

> money (which has been offered

> by foundational funds) however the

> alcoholics believe it should

> come from within their own

> experience.

>

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge

> 3

> Questions & Answers - 1. The question is often

> asked - where does the money

> come from for this work?

> 2. How do I know this will work with me?

> Why is this method better than any other

> religious

> method? (It is not - this is only a step toward

> a

> religious experience which should be carried

> forward

> in christian fellowship no matter what your

> church)

> 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct

> up to these highest standards?

> 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual

> relapse?

> 5. There is so much talk about a religious

> experience

> - what is it?

>

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge

> 4

> Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market -

> 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller

> Foundation)

> 2. At least million non alcoholics

> that have definite alcoholic

> relatives

> 3. Every employer of 100 or

> more people

> 4. Those that take an

> academic interest. [a]

> 5. Two hundred & ten thousand ministers [b]

> 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand

> physicians.

> 7. The total would be well

> over three million prospects [c] [a] this

> entry was first written as number 6,

> but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the

> entry was promoted with an arrow

> [b] First written as "Half million ministers"

> [c] The word "three" was written over "a"

>

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge

> 5

> Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the

> work -

> Possibly this could be carried on

> the first two pages of the book.

> This history should establish

> proof of success of the work

> and carry hope to everyone

> that reads that much.

> The opening to the book

> should arouse the emotion

> of hope.

>

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge

> 6

> Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment

>

> must be worked out.

> This will acknowledge the receipt

> of the enquiry [sic] and will inform

> that the writer can secure the

> book by mailing two dollars [d]

> or through their local bookseller

> who can secure from

> Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.

> Post Box xxxx The profits of the book

> are administered

> by a foundation for promotion of

> cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first

> written as "mailing a buck for"

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge

> 7

> Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published

> by

> ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC

> A NON PROFIT organization

> for the promotion of

> cure and understanding

> of alcoholism. Profits accruing from

> sale

> of this book will be [e] administered

> by a foundation for promotion

> of cure and understanding

> of alcoholism. Members of

> this foundation......... Post Box...

> xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and

> changed

> to "will be"

>

> Click on image to enlarge 8

> Observations - One of the easiest and most

> talked

=== message truncated ===


0 -1 0 0
4288 silkworthdotnet
Re: RE: Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... Cleveland''s claim: first use of the name Alcoholics... 4/25/2007 10:14:00 AM


For those interested, because of the way this was posted wasn'at as I intended

(because of tables, colors, & images of Hanks letter), here is the link to Hanks

Letter and to chapter 5 of Mitchells Book:



http://silkworth.net/gsowatch/1938/index.htm - Hanks letter



http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html - Chapter 5 of Mitchell's Book



silkworthdotnet <silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com> wrote:

According to Mitchell's Book,

How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS OF ALCOHOLICS

ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997

Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact

existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used

the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939

meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics

Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group."



However, there seems to be a little more light to shed on the subject. From a

page on the AA GSO Watch website there is the following stated:



You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 165



The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had appeared very early in the discussion,

probably in October, 1938. We do not know who first used these words. That is

questionable. As we discovered recently it appeared more than half year earlier

around March 1938. How do we know that? We read ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF

AGE, page 159.

"At 17 William Street, Newark, New Jersey, Henry had an office which was the

headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also had a secretary named Ruth

Hock, who was to become one of A.A.'s real pioneers. The other assets consisted

of a huge desk and some plush furniture. Each morning I traveled all the way

from Brooklyn to Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, I began to

dictate rough drafts of the chapters of the coming book. As we seemed unable to

come up with any genuine outline for the publication, I worked from a hastily

drawn-up list of possible chapter headings. Week after week, Henry raced around

among the stock subscribers, prodding them for their installments."



One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter

headings". What was that? Some overdue research revealed the answer. In fact

said a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings was a complete outline

for our book Alcoholics Anonymous, created and written by Hank Parkhurst around

March 1938. download document hank38.pdf 471kB



Chapter 1 - Being dictated -

Preface of the Book -

History of this work -

Questions & answers -

Why the Book -

What is needed -

The Program -

List of Chapters -

The aim of the book -

What is an alcoholic -

The medical chapter -

The Sales Promotion Possibilities -

In the book should be suggestions regarding

hospitalization

Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's handwriting] Hanks ideas





Click on image to enlarge 2

Why the Book It has been estimated by the Rockefeller

Foundation that there are over a

million incurable, from medical or

psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics

in the United States.

These men realize their vital

need and are desperately seeking

the answer. The book should be so

written that it will prove the

answer to these people.

The work has become so broad

that full time assistance and

direction is needed. This costs

money (which has been offered

by foundational funds) however the

alcoholics believe it should

come from within their own

experience.







Click on image to enlarge 3

Questions & Answers - 1. The question is often asked - where does the money

come from for this work?

2. How do I know this will work with me?

Why is this method better than any other religious

method? (It is not - this is only a step toward a

religious experience which should be carried forward

in christian fellowship no matter what your church)

3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct

up to these highest standards?

4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual

relapse?

5. There is so much talk about a religious experience

- what is it?







Click on image to enlarge 4

Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market -

1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller Foundation)

2. At least million non alcoholics

that have definite alcoholic

relatives

3. Every employer of 100 or

more people

4. Those that take an

academic interest. [a]

5. Two hundred & ten thousand ministers [b]

6. One hundred sixty nine thousand

physicians.

7. The total would be well

over three million prospects [c] [a] this entry was first written as number 6,

but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the

entry was promoted with an arrow

[b] First written as "Half million ministers"

[c] The word "three" was written over "a"







Click on image to enlarge 5

Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the work -

Possibly this could be carried on

the first two pages of the book.

This history should establish

proof of success of the work

and carry hope to everyone

that reads that much.

The opening to the book

should arouse the emotion

of hope.







Click on image to enlarge 6

Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment

must be worked out.

This will acknowledge the receipt

of the enquiry [sic] and will inform

that the writer can secure the

book by mailing two dollars [d]

or through their local bookseller

who can secure from

Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.

Post Box xxxx The profits of the book are administered

by a foundation for promotion of

cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first written as "mailing a buck for"





Click on image to enlarge 7

Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published by

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC

A NON PROFIT organization

for the promotion of

cure and understanding

of alcoholism. Profits accruing from sale

of this book will be [e] administered

by a foundation for promotion

of cure and understanding

of alcoholism. Members of

this foundation......... Post Box...

xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and changed

to "will be"



Click on image to enlarge 8

Observations - One of the easiest and most talked of

things among us is a religious experience.

I believe that this is incomprehensible to

most people. Simple & meaning words

to us - but meaningless to most of

the people that we are trying to get

this over too. - In my mind religious

experience - religion - etc - should

not be brought in. We are actually

irreligious - but we are trying to be

helpful - we have learned to be

quiet - to be more truthful - to be

more honest - to try to be more

unselfish - to make the other fellows

troubles - our troubles - and by

following four steps we most of us

have a religious experience. The fellowship -

the unselfishness - appeals to us.

I wonder if we are off the track.

A very good merchandising

procedure is to find out why

people do not buy our

products - it is good reasoning

to find out WHY - I am fearfully

afraid that we are emphasizing

religious experience when actually

that is something that follows

as a result of 1-2-3-4.

In my mind the question is not particularly

the strength of the experience as

much as the improvement over

what we were. I would ask a

man to compare himself as follows

after say a month -

#1 - as compared to 2 months ago

do you have more of a feeling

that there is a power greater

than you?

#2 - Have you cleaned out more

completely with a human being

than ever before?

#3 - Have you less bad things

behind you than ever

before

#4 Have you been





Click on image to enlarge

9

more honest with yourself & your

fellow man - Have you been

more thoughtful of people with

whom you are associated - Has

your life been cleaner both by

thought & action - Have you

looked at others less critically and

yourself more critically this past

30 days. You will never be

perfect but the question is

have you been more perfect?

Click on image to enlarge 10

Alcoholism May be best be defined to the

average person by pointing out

its leading symptoms and indicating

how these reactions differ from the

affects of alcohol on normal persons.

1. Total inability to control drinking

once drinking is started.

2. Antisocial behavior of these people

when intoxicated

A. Marked insanity

1. Little relation the - persons normal

behavior or ordinary

exuberant drinker or drunk





Publicity

Newspapers When book is nearly ready to

leave the presses a short mat

article should be sent to the

12,285 newspapers in the U.S.

This article would briefly cover

the work as it has gone to date.

Case histories would be covered.

- It possibly would be a brief

case history of the work and

announcement of the book.

At least four news bulletins

should be published at weekly

intervals, ahead of the book.



Click on image to enlarge



Here is such article -- pushed by Hank



Click on image to enlarge



Jim from silkworth.net



---------------------------------

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

















---------------------------------

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4289 Arthur S
RE: RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/25/2007 5:50:00 PM


I'm reminded of a situation in NY and Akron some many decades ago. Everyone

who was an AA member then had a direct opportunity to influence the drafts

of a project to write a book of experience. It was the only time in AA

history where that occurred.



The efforts of those members produced the Big Book during 1938 and 1939. It

might serve to illustrate why the book has such high stature in the

Fellowship.



That of course would not be practical today with nearly 2 million members.

However, there is a Conference structure in place where the inverted

triangle could be put into genuine practice, if perhaps someone would like

to give it a try, if only as an experiment.



There are no time-critical literature projects other than directories and

perhaps memorial booklets for International Conventions. Their might be

impatient authors but outside of directories there are no deadlines for

pamphlets, books or other literature unless someone manufactures one.



Using the example of a trusted servant writing an area service manual does

not seem relevant. First off the development of an area manual or policies

and procedures document should be a function of a special committee not a

single trusted servant. Also without access to the document it is difficult

to distinguish whether the delay was a matter of the quantity of its

reviewers or the quality of its content.



A few years ago I was involved in a committee project to write job

descriptions for all the trusted servants. It took over a year and that

seemed reasonable. During that same time period we also produced a set of

Area Archives Guidelines and recommended Archives Guidelines for groups.

When a committee brings a written project forward for assembly approval, if

there is unanimity among the committee members then assembly attendees

usually seem inclined to trust their trusted servants. If the committee

consists of one member then it will likely take an extraordinary length of

time or not follow through to completion.



As for the home-bound, loners, internationalists, nursing home or hospital

patients, Special Needs Committees perform a vital service to the ill and

disabled to either bring them to meetings or bring meetings to them (at

least in my state they do). GSO has sponsored a long-term correspondence

outreach to loners and internationalists. These members can certainly

benefit from internet or short-wave radio contact with other members and I'm

not criticizing that point.



The statement in the foreword to the 4th edition was:



"Fundamentally, though, the difference between an electronic meeting and the

home group around the corner is only one of format."



That statement is absurd. Enough other folks thought so as well to cause it

to be removed from the foreword. Further if one is going to use a segment of

the population to illustrate a point, it is probably a bit more consistent

with Tradition 1 to use the population segment in which something happens

the most as opposed to the least.



Finally, if I truly had a disdain for AA members using the internet to reach

out to other AA members I would not be a part of this forum.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of pvttimt@aol.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 4:44 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved



Arthur said,



"...there is no reason why an extra year could not be

added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups,

districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature

projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from

broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the

primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all

Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says."



Arthur



Tim T., an alky.



I'm reminded of a situation here in New Mexico some years ago. A

well-regarded trusted servant led a project to rewrite our Area service

manual, which describes our Area's service structure, the district mapping,

etc. He bent over backwards trying to keep all districts and groups

involved in an "informed" process, fully democratic in every way.



The result of this was that, at every area assembly, the new GSRs, et.

al. who had not seen the current draft, had to have their way with it. The

process bogged down and became mostly a "bringing everyone up to speed"

process at each assembly. Progress on the actual document was

excruciatingly slow.



After many, many assemblies had passed with no light at the end of the

tunnel, he appealed to the Area. Once we all realized that nothing material

was changing, that the needed changes had long since been made, approval was

achieved and we had a working tool in our hands once again.



One wonders if Arthur's claim that the groups, districts, areas should

have far more influence would not deteriorate in the same way. Are we to

believe that the delegates that are assigned to a particular committee, say

Grapevine, do not adequately represent the fellowship? Do they not have a

"right of decision?" After their work, would review by the groups,

districts and areas introduce any material changes, or would changes merely

be cosmetic?



To Arthur's comment on the absurdity of equating online meetings with

f2f home groups, I wonder if the homers, loners, nursing-home AA residents,

et.al., who must depend on the internet for their daily AA look down on

this, their only access, with the same disdain?



Best regards. Tim.







-----Original Message-----

From: ArtSheehan@msn.com

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 6:45 AM

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved





In my earlier posting I used the term "literature" very broadly and perhaps

should have used the term "select literature." Some replies were sent in to

"clear up the confusion" and I think they created more confusion than they

cleared up.



The original posting noted that groups and most Delegates do not get the

opportunity to adequately review literature items on the Conference agenda.

I stand by that assertion. It is not a matter of Conference structure it is

a matter of adopted procedure that can easily be changed given a willingness

to do so. There has been a number of Conference agenda items deferred for

the next following Conference to allow groups, districts and areas to review

the matter and make their views known. There is no reason why this couldn't

be done for literature (all literature).



New literature projects as well as select items such as "The AA Group"

pamphlet, 12&12, Big Book and videos are held in tight secrecy under the

rubric of "work in progress" and have a very limited distribution. It is

done under claims of copyright protection which I feel are unfounded. As an

example, there was no reason why the foreword to the fourth edition Big Book

could not have been distributed in advance for review. It would have spared

the Fellowship the embarrassment of it absurdly equating on-line meetings

with the home group.



Last Panel, our Area Delegate, who chaired the Grapevine Conference

Committee, wanted to obtain a preliminary copy of "The AA Group" pamphlet to

review the proposed changes to it (which were not identified at all in the

background material). She was denied access to it until right before the

Conference floor session.



When it comes to Conference procedure, after more than half a century there

is an element of evolved reality that supersedes written philosophy. Staff

members of AAWS and Grapevine participate in Conference after Conference for

the duration of their employment (which can be decades). They have too much

influence over literature and the Conference-approval process compared to

Delegates who typically serve for two Conferences and 50% of whom rotate out

each year.



Again, I reiterate, that there is no reason why an extra year could not be

added on to an AAWS or Grapevine publications project to permit groups,

districts and areas to have far more of a say and influence over literature

projects. The claim that select items of literature are withheld from

broader review to "protect copyrights" is bogus. Literature is one of the

primary means of "carrying the message" and groups, districts, areas and all

Delegates should have far more influence over what that message says.



End of rant (Rule #62).



Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K.

Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:31 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved



To my knowledge, any work marked "Copyright" or (c) is

copyrighted - period. The revised copyright law allows

for the protection of the author or entity holding

copyright. Having an actual copyright certificate

holds more weight legally than the other method if

challenged in court. I would think that AA's crack

legal teams of intellectual property lawyers would

know that AAWS can register a work with the Copyright

Office as it nears completion and when it is completed

submit another one. If anyone "steals" the work sent

out for review, the original copyright is in force and

even if the language is changed I am sure that there

might be enough legal evidence to challenge. ANyway,

even after a copyright is secured including a

copyright certificate, anyone can write a similar

document changing the words etc. and get away with it.

What's the big paranoid deal? You can't copyright a

concept. Wider input might confuse the issue at times

but some of that confusion might lead to a greater

acceptnce by the Fellowship at large.



Before the copyright laws were revised one had to put

loan or review copy in the body of the text to have a

stronger claim of copyright. Today that isn't

necessary and even if not necessary why not put it on

literature sent out for review anyway? This

"top-secret" stuff doesn't belong in AA on ANY level.



Mitchell





--- Arthur S <ArtSheehan@msn.com> wrote:



> Jim has mentioned a point that has not sat well with

> me at all over the

> years.

>

> Don't get me wrong - my issue is not with Jim by any

> means, but with his

> very factual statement of the notion of "copyright

> protection" being used by

> the Trustee's Literature Committee and GSO as an

> excuse to withhold review

> copies of literature from Delegates and Groups.

>

> Perhaps the AAHL members who are published authors

> can shed some light on

> the situation on whether or not there are valid

> copyright concerns involved.

>

> To me there seems to be no reason whatsoever to deny

> Delegates (or for that

> matter Groups) the opportunity to review a piece of

> literature well prior to

> its publication.

>

> Outside of Directories there is no time-critical

> aspect to any publication

> nor is there any reason why an extra year couldn't

> be added on to the

> publication plan for Fellowship review. Instead, GSO

> uses a notion of a

> "work in progress" to make the entire process

> top-secret and known only to a

> select few and then claims copies of the completed

> work cannot be circulated

> in order to protect the copyright.

>

> Last Panel our Area Delegate wanted to review

> planned changes to the "AA

> Group" pamphlet and received the response that it

> could not be done in order

> to protect the copyright. That notion just doesn't

> seem to hold water to me,

> particularly in an age of digital rights management.

>

>

> My understanding of the copyright process is that an

> author need only mark a

> work as "copyright - all rights reserved" in order

> to establish initial

> legal intellectual property rights prior to going

> through the full legal

> copyright process. Is this true?

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

> -----Original Message-----

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

> Of

> james.bliss@comcast.net

> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:44 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved

>

> With respect to Arthur S's statement below:

>

> There is a very limited number of people who

> even have access to the literature with its

> changes prior to the vote (substantial changes

> or new literature). The Delegates may have

> an opportunity to review the material

> immediately prior to the vote, but the actual

> changes, or new literature, is only distributed

> to the people who are on the committee for

> formal review and input, and they make

> written recommendations regarding the changes.

>

> A point of interest here is that the groups

> (and therefore individual members) have no

> access to the literature (new or significant

> changes) prior to it being approved and

> published. Sort of goes against the concept

> of AA being run by the groups.

>

> Minor changes (punctuation or slight wording)

> are often published for review to the groups.

> It is just significant changes, rewrites and

> new literature which is not. I have been

> informed this is due to a fear of copyright

> issues and the material being purloined by

> others.

>

> Jim

>

> > It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates

> > at a Conference get a chance to review a piece

> > of literature prior to voting on it. The

> > review is usually done by a committee of

> > several Delegates. The remainder of the

> > Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,

> > for/against the literature based on the

> > recommendation of the committee (that's how

> > the Foreword to the 4th edition statement

> > about on-line meetings and the punctuation

> > changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other

> > changes slipped past Conference review). While

> > all the Delegates vote on the literature, only

> > a fraction of them actually gets to read it

> > prior to voting.

> >

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>









Yahoo! Groups Links















Yahoo! Groups Links







________________________________________________________________________

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from

AOL at AOL.com.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4290 ricktompkins
RE: RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/26/2007 5:21:00 AM


Continuing this thread with the theme "Our Twelfth Step Responsibility-Area

We Going to Any Lengths?"---

This year's General Service Conference has an opportunity to approve or

disapprove the proposal to discontinue printing the AA Meeting Directories

(US and Canada). It has the idea that AAs can access the Internet, for

example, to find a meeting anywhere out of the US Eastern Directory. It's a

first, but a password-controlled list, an unavailability of computers, and

a few other points make this proposal from the Maine Area Delegate a bit

rough to implement. Conference Report & Charter Committee may take the best

route and "take no action."

Conference-approved material, available at all groups (but without a contact

and printed list booklets?) would slow down our traveling recoveries and

12th Step efforts with an online Directory.

Rick, Illinois





_____



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:51 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: conference-approved







.



<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=6460000/grpspId=1705237878/msgId

=4289/stime=1177568217/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4291 schaberg43
"Master Copy" of Big Book to be Auctioned Again "Master Copy" of Big Book to be Auctioned Again 4/23/2007 4:16:00 PM


I have been informed by a reliable source that the `Original

Manuscript' of the Big Book which was auctioned off by Sotheby's in

June of 2004 (for $1,576,000!) will again be offered for sale at

auction on June 22nd.



Sotheby's has set the estimated value for this sale at $900,000 to

$1,200,000. (NOTE: it was set at $300,000 to $500,000 in 2004.)



Sotheby's physical description of the book in 2004 was as

follows: "Original annotated multilith copy, a working draft of

Alcoholics Anonymous, with a multitude of annotations by William

Griffith Wilson ("Bill W.") and others, 161 pages (3 are handwritten

in pencil by several hands), New York, 1938, with presentation leaf

by Lois Wilson: "I joyfully give this multilith copy of the AA book,

one of my most precious possessions, to you, dear Barry, as evidence

of my deep gratitude for all you have done for AA, for Al-Anon, &

particularly for me ... 1/1/78"; annotations in lead, green, and red

pencil, lightly browned. Each leaf encased in mylar and bound in a

blue cloth binder, morocco lettering-piece ("Printer's Copy M[anu]s

[cript])"; joints and corners rubbed."



This is the `master copy' of the `Multilith Edition' – the one into

which Hank Parkhurst, Ruth Hoch and Bill Wilson transcribed ALL of

the suggested changes to the Big Book text as they were submitted to

them in late 1938 and early 1939. (I believe that most of the

annotations are in Hank's – rather than Bill's – handwriting.)



Despite the title on the more recent binding, at some later point,

using this `master copy as a reference, a `printer's copy' was

prepared for Cornwall Press – but, to my knowledge, that `printer's

copy' has never been located.



The `master copy' being auctioned is of the highest historical

importance providing an essential record of how our Book was put

together. While it is possible to take any one of the rare surviving

multilith copy of the `Original Manuscript' and compare it to a 1st

edition, 1st printing copy to see what changes were made,

this `master copy' occasionally shows who made the suggestions and,

more important, clearly shows what suggestions were NOT taken by the

final editors of the Big Book. This provides invaluable insight into

the final editor's creative thought process and into their true

understanding of what did and did not constitute the true AA program

just as the book went to press.



As is usual with book auctions, this Original Manuscript will be

available for viewing (and handling!) a few days before the auction

in New York City. (In 2004, my sponsor and I traveled down there

to `put our hands on the book' and, I must say, it was a very moving

experience.)


0 -1 0 0
4292 Fiona Dodd
Re: "Master Copy" of Big Book to be Auctioned Again "Master Copy" of Big Book to be Auctioned Again 4/27/2007 6:54:00 PM


Regarding the auction of the manuscript the auction will be held on June

21st according to Sothebys not June 22nd.



Fiona





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4293 johnlawlee
Re: Big Book "Outline" Big Book "Outline" 4/28/2007 4:29:00 PM


Although styled as "Hanks [sic] letter [sic]", the twelve pages of

lined tablet appear to be handwritten notes from two, or possibly

three, different persons. The pages are undated and untitled. The

handwriting saying "Hanks ideas" is most likely Bill Wilson's

inscription, but does anyone have facts to authenticate that any of

the writing on those twelve pages is Hank Parkhurst's? It is

significant that the notation "Hanks ideas" come AFTER the purported

outline,not before; consequently, Hank's ideas would be the material

coming after the putative outline. The first page is not

an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some, but appears to be

an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book. In any case, few

if any of those ideas made their way into the Big Book. It seems

quite a stretch to claim that the first page is an outline of what

became the Big Book. While "Hanks ideas" didn't make it into the

manuscript or the First Printing, they DID become the incubator for

the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Second Printing [and

subsequent printings/editions].

john lee

pittsburgh-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com silkworthdotnet

<silkworthdotnet@...> wrote:

>

> For those interested, because of the way this was posted wasn'at as

I intended (because of tables, colors, & images of Hanks letter),

here is the link to Hanks Letter and to chapter 5 of Mitchells Book:

>

> http://silkworth.net/gsowatch/1938/index.htm - Hanks letter

>

> http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html - Chapter 5 of Mitchell's Book

>

> silkworthdotnet <silkworthdotnet@...> wrote:

> According to Mitchell's Book,

> How It Worked - THE STORY OF CLARENCE H. SNYDER AND THE EARLY DAYS

OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN CLEVELAND, OHIO By Mitchell K. © 1991, 1997

> Chapter 5, is a paragraph states: "A fellowship of anonymous drunks

had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland

meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took

from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented

meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart

from the Oxford Group."

>

> However, there seems to be a little more light to shed on the

subject. From a page on the AA GSO Watch website there is the

following stated:

>

> You may have read in ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 165

>

> The title "Alcoholics Anonymous" had appeared very early in the

discussion, probably in October, 1938. We do not know who first used

these words. That is questionable. As we discovered recently it

appeared more than half year earlier around March 1938. How do we

know that? We read ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE, page 159.

> "At 17 William Street, Newark, New Jersey, Henry had an office

which was the headquarters for a rapidly failing business. He also

had a secretary named Ruth Hock, who was to become one of A.A.'s real

pioneers. The other assets consisted of a huge desk and some plush

furniture. Each morning I traveled all the way from Brooklyn to

Newark where, pacing up and down in Henry's office, I began to

dictate rough drafts of the chapters of the coming book. As we seemed

unable to come up with any genuine outline for the publication, I

worked from a hastily drawn-up list of possible chapter headings.

Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers,

prodding them for their installments."

>

> One of us questioned the phrase "a hastily drawn-up list of

possible chapter headings". What was that? Some overdue research

revealed the answer. In fact said a hastily drawn-up list of possible

chapter headings was a complete outline for our book Alcoholics

Anonymous, created and written by Hank Parkhurst around March 1938.

download document hank38.pdf 471kB

>

> Chapter 1 - Being dictated -

> Preface of the Book -

> History of this work -

> Questions & answers -

> Why the Book -

> What is needed -

> The Program -

> List of Chapters -

> The aim of the book -

> What is an alcoholic -

> The medical chapter -

> The Sales Promotion Possibilities -

> In the book should be suggestions regarding

> hospitalization

> Dr. silkworths [sic] letters. [Bill Wilson's handwriting] Hanks

ideas

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge 2

> Why the Book It has been estimated by the Rockefeller

> Foundation that there are over a

> million incurable, from medical or

> psychiatrical standpoints, alcoholics

> in the United States.

> These men realize their vital

> need and are desperately seeking

> the answer. The book should be so

> written that it will prove the

> answer to these people.

> The work has become so broad

> that full time assistance and

> direction is needed. This costs

> money (which has been offered

> by foundational funds) however the

> alcoholics believe it should

> come from within their own

> experience.

>

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge 3

> Questions & Answers - 1. The question is often asked - where does

the money

> come from for this work?

> 2. How do I know this will work with me?

> Why is this method better than any other religious

> method? (It is not - this is only a step toward a

> religious experience which should be carried forward

> in christian fellowship no matter what your church)

> 3. Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct

> up to these highest standards?

> 4 - What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual

> relapse?

> 5. There is so much talk about a religious experience

> - what is it?

>

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge 4

> Sales Promotion Possibilities The Market -

> 1. Over million alcoholics (Rockefeller Foundation)

> 2. At least million non alcoholics

> that have definite alcoholic

> relatives

> 3. Every employer of 100 or

> more people

> 4. Those that take an

> academic interest. [a]

> 5. Two hundred & ten thousand ministers [b]

> 6. One hundred sixty nine thousand

> physicians.

> 7. The total would be well

> over three million prospects [c] [a] this entry was first written

as number 6,

> but the 6 was written over by a 4 and the

> entry was promoted with an arrow

> [b] First written as "Half million ministers"

> [c] The word "three" was written over "a"

>

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge 5

> Suggestion for Chapter 1 - A History of the work -

> Possibly this could be carried on

> the first two pages of the book.

> This history should establish

> proof of success of the work

> and carry hope to everyone

> that reads that much.

> The opening to the book

> should arouse the emotion

> of hope.

>

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge 6

> Mail order A form letter of acknowledgment

> must be worked out.

> This will acknowledge the receipt

> of the enquiry [sic] and will inform

> that the writer can secure the

> book by mailing two dollars [d]

> or through their local bookseller

> who can secure from

> Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.

> Post Box xxxx The profits of the book are administered

> by a foundation for promotion of

> cure and understanding of alcoholism. [d] first written as "mailing

a buck for"

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge 7

> Title Page Alcoholics Anonymous Published by

> ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, INC

> A NON PROFIT organization

> for the promotion of

> cure and understanding

> of alcoholism. Profits accruing from sale

> of this book will be [e] administered

> by a foundation for promotion

> of cure and understanding

> of alcoholism. Members of

> this foundation......... Post Box...

> xxxxxxxxx xx [e] first written as "are" and changed

> to "will be"

>

> Click on image to enlarge 8

> Observations - One of the easiest and most talked of

> things among us is a religious experience.

> I believe that this is incomprehensible to

> most people. Simple & meaning words

> to us - but meaningless to most of

> the people that we are trying to get

> this over too. - In my mind religious

> experience - religion - etc - should

> not be brought in. We are actually

> irreligious - but we are trying to be

> helpful - we have learned to be

> quiet - to be more truthful - to be

> more honest - to try to be more

> unselfish - to make the other fellows

> troubles - our troubles - and by

> following four steps we most of us

> have a religious experience. The fellowship -

> the unselfishness - appeals to us.

> I wonder if we are off the track.

> A very good merchandising

> procedure is to find out why

> people do not buy our

> products - it is good reasoning

> to find out WHY - I am fearfully

> afraid that we are emphasizing

> religious experience when actually

> that is something that follows

> as a result of 1-2-3-4.

> In my mind the question is not particularly

> the strength of the experience as

> much as the improvement over

> what we were. I would ask a

> man to compare himself as follows

> after say a month -

> #1 - as compared to 2 months ago

> do you have more of a feeling

> that there is a power greater

> than you?

> #2 - Have you cleaned out more

> completely with a human being

> than ever before?

> #3 - Have you less bad things

> behind you than ever

> before

> #4 Have you been

>

>

> Click on image to enlarge

> 9

> more honest with yourself & your

> fellow man - Have you been

> more thoughtful of people with

> whom you are associated - Has

> your life been cleaner both by

> thought & action - Have you

> looked at others less critically and

> yourself more critically this past

> 30 days. You will never be

> perfect but the question is

> have you been more perfect?

> Click on image to enlarge 10

> Alcoholism May be best be defined to the

> average person by pointing out

> its leading symptoms and indicating

> how these reactions differ from the

> affects of alcohol on normal persons.

> 1. Total inability to control drinking

> once drinking is started.

> 2. Antisocial behavior of these people

> when intoxicated

> A. Marked insanity

> 1. Little relation the - persons normal

> behavior or ordinary

> exuberant drinker or drunk

>

>

> Publicity

> Newspapers When book is nearly ready to

> leave the presses a short mat

> article should be sent to the

> 12,285 newspapers in the U.S.

> This article would briefly cover

> the work as it has gone to date.

> Case histories would be covered.

> - It possibly would be a brief

> case history of the work and

> announcement of the book.

> At least four news bulletins

> should be published at weekly

> intervals, ahead of the book.

>

> Click on image to enlarge

>

> Here is such article -- pushed by Hank

>

> Click on image to enlarge

>

> Jim from silkworth.net

>

> ---------------------------------

> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>


0 -1 0 0
4294 Mitchell K.
Re: Re: Big Book "Outline" Big Book "Outline" 4/29/2007 5:11:00 AM


How I came upon that document was in fact to verify

that it actually was Hank’s handwriting. I was asked

by the then archivist at Stepping Stones to view the

pages there. They had no samples of Hank’s handwriting

to compare it with.



I brought a few of Hank’s handwritten letters with me

and we compared the document against actual samples.

Another verification came through Merton M. who also

is familiar with Hank’s writing (both style and actual

handwriting). To my knowledge, Merton and I are

probably two of the very few people around who

actually could verify Hank’s handwriting. Neither Nell

Wing nor Frank M. had samples of Hank’s handwriting to

compare it to when I brought copies of the document to

them.



While some may argue semantics, what I wrote was that

“Hanks ideas” was his outline FOR the book and not an

outline OF the book. Hank’s notations were part of the

discussion stages not only for the writing of the book

but for the promotion of the book as well. The book

was not yet written at that time and the first chapter

was in the dictation stage. They were also discussing

the demographics of what type of persons the stories

would represent. Not included with Hank’s proposal

published on-line was another document outlining

prospective authors. These authors were not listed by

name but by the listing of whether or not they were

low bottom or high bottom, whether or not they had

slipped, their occupation, geographic location, etc.

Not published on the net but included with the

document was also a list of occupations of

prospective authors for the story section. There were

25 occupations numbered and listed. Some had a check

next to the name. I’m not sure what the check

signified but I will not where they appeared with an *

(The first two are pretty obvious):

1. Broker *

2. Surgeon

3. Politician

4. Executive *

5. Sales Manager *

6. Author *

7. Radio Man

8. Laborer *

9. Accountant *

10. Proprietor very large retail business *

11. Housewife *

12. Mechanic *

13. Judge *

14. Insurance *

15. Teacher

16. Upholsterer

17. Gardener

18. Salesman

19. Book Agent

20. Test car driver

21. Farmer

22. Laboratory technician

23. banker

24. athlete

25. Oil man



John States that : “The first page is not an "outline"

of the Big Book, as claimed by some, but appears to be

an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book.”

The first page is actually an outline of the

proceeding pages. If it were merely a business plan to

promote the book why then would it list:



• Preface of the book

• The Program

• The aim of the book

• What is an alcoholic

• The medical chapter

• In the book should be suggestions regarding

hospitalization

• Dr. Silkworth letters



Page 2 states under “Why the Book,” that “The work has

become so broad that full time assistance and

direction is needed. This costs money (which has been

offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics

believe it should come from within their own

experience.”



On page 3 under “Questions and Answers” it asks in

part:

• How do I know this will work with me? Why is this

method better than any other religious method? (It is

not – this is only a step toward a religious

experience which should be carried forward in

Christian fellowship no matter what your church)

• Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these

highest standards?

• What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse?





Under Suggestions for Chapter 1 on page 5 it calls for

“A History of the work – Possibly this could be

carried on the first two pages of the book. This

history should establish proof of success of the work

and carry ‘hope’ to everyone that reads that much. The

opening of the book should arouse the emotion of

hope.” This does not sound like a sales promotion but

rather a suggestion relating to the actual writing and

outline for the book.



This document relates not only to the sales and

promotion of the yet unwritten book, it addresses

proposals for what Hank feels should be included and

why these subjects should be included.



There is no significance as to where in the document

Bill wrote “Hanks ideas”. Bill wanted to identify

whose ideas these were and the bottom of the page was

open. Hank probably handed these pages to Bill and

they discussed them. Bill wanted to file these with

materials relating to the writing of the book as the

book was being written and wrote “Hanks ideas” as a

means of identification of whose ideas the were. Bill

did not hand Hank a blank piece of paper with the

title Hank’s Ideas and ask Hank to write an essay.

Hank and Bill were partners in the work and the fact

that equal partners do not need to quibble about

whether or not Bill’s notation came BEFORE or AFTER

the “purported” outline of suggested ideas for the

book and promotion of the book. Taking the document in

its entirety, it is in no way just a sales promotion

prospectus or “Business Plan.” Given the fact that

Bill and Hank were partners in the writing of the

book, they bounced ideas off each other in that very

small office on the 6h floor at 17 William St in

Newark. Also, to infer that Hank’s ideas did not make

it into the book does not take into account what is

addressed in the entire document. Maybe not specific

subject titles on the cover page but in fact what

made it into the book IS covered in this document.



In conclusion – Verification that the document was

Hank’s handwriting was made by comparing actual

letters written by Hank against the original document

by several individuals – Frank M., Nell Wing, myself,

Merton M. and the then archivist at Stepping stones.

The document came from Stepping Stones and were part

of Bill’s materials relating to the writing of the

book. Bill’s handwriting as to “Hanks ideas” was also

verified by the aforementioned individuals.



To infer that just because Bill annotated “Hanks

ideas” AFTER the title page as anything other than as

a means of identifying the document is also a stretch

and to question the veracity of the document by words

such as purported or putative implies fabrication. The

FACT that the document was verified to be Hank’s

handwriting by at least four individuals including the

former archivist at GSO, the then current archivist at

GSO, the then archivist at Stepping Stones and

probably the only two other people in the world who

had samples of Hank’s actual handwriting would

probably stand up in court. The FACT that this

document was part of Bill’s papers relating to the

writing of the book and was housed in the archival

repository at Bill and Lois’ home at Stepping Stones

would verify its authenticity and also stand up in

court. The FACT that if one looked at any author’s

notes during the writing process of their books or

papers one would usually not find these documents,

ideas, scribbling, etc. dated or titled. I am also

sure that if one looked at the handwritten story

submissions also stored at Stepping Stones you would

not find these dated or titled either. The actual

titles for the stories in the book were not submitted

by the authors of the stories but were decided upon

AFTER the stories were submitted. I take umbrage to

the inference of fabrication as well. I did not seek

out this document. At the time it was discovered I was

asked as one of probably only two or three people in

the world familiar with Hank’s handwriting and in

possession of actual letter written by Hank to verify

the handwriting. As a matter of course I showed the

document and samples of Hank’s handwriting to several

other “experts” in AA documents to verify my findings.





Mitchell K.



--- johnlawlee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com> wrote:



> Although styled as "Hanks [sic] letter [sic]", the

> twelve pages of

> lined tablet appear to be handwritten notes from

> two, or possibly

> three, different persons. The pages are undated and

> untitled. The

> handwriting saying "Hanks ideas" is most likely Bill

> Wilson's

> inscription, but does anyone have facts to

> authenticate that any of

> the writing on those twelve pages is Hank

> Parkhurst's? It is

> significant that the notation "Hanks ideas" come

> AFTER the purported

> outline,not before; consequently, Hank's ideas would

> be the material

> coming after the putative outline. The first page

> is not

> an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some,

> but appears to be

> an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book.

> In any case, few

> if any of those ideas made their way into the Big

> Book. It seems

> quite a stretch to claim that the first page is an

> outline of what

> became the Big Book. While "Hanks ideas" didn't make

> it into the

> manuscript or the First Printing, they DID become

> the incubator for

> the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Second

> Printing [and

> subsequent printings/editions].

> john lee


0 -1 0 0
4295 ricktompkins
RE: Re: Big Book "Outline" Big Book "Outline" 4/29/2007 12:47:00 PM


Thank you for your post, Mitch, it clears up a bit of the intrigue about

this rare archival item.

If the "printer's manuscript" was purchased three years ago for $1.56

millions what will speculators pay this year?

On one hand I am saddened that the item has not been placed in the AA

Archives at GSO, and remain amused that its auction brings such deep

pocketed people to the bidding. The AA Archives had no opinion on its

auction in 2004 and I wouldn't expect any comment this year. Looks like

"aahistorylovers" can help bring this in the light of day...I had the

opportunity in 2004 to present the Sotheby's activity to my Area in its

annual Big Book Conference and in my talk I shared that establishing private

archives collections is an AA's personal choice. Some can spend a lot of

money pursuing and purchasing AA memorabilia and may God bless them if they

can keep their sobriety in the process.



How we get to this point in 2007-this manuscript belonged to the estate of

Barry L, the author of AAWS' Living Sober and a close friend of Lois Wilson.

He also served as the chief writer for Al-Anon's Lois' Story. Apparently she

held sympathy for Barry's claim that the early 1970s General Service Board

had not competitively paid him for the work on the AAWS book and she gave

the manuscript to him as a gift. 25 years later Barry's heirs decided to

cash in on its sale. Of course, the item was a cherished part of Bill's

estate, given to Barry in friendship.



Bill's handwriting may or may not have been written in later years as he

inventoried many of his papers (preceding the mid-1950s AA history project?)

and I can't help but assume that the "book outline" from Hank was input

toward a consensus on just how to organize and title the chapters. Another

egroup recently discussed the authorship of the Big Book, which is

"officially" denoted by the General Service Board as written by Bill, but

the number of editors and the wide scope of building the consensus on its

final form tells a beautiful story!

Hank's organization skill was indispensable and Bill W.'s and Bob S.'

insightful writing (as well as the AAs writing their own personal stories)

was priceless. The assistance of Jim S. of Akron, Tom U. of NYC, Ruth Hock's

dictation-typing, her language ability, and the last-minute editing by the

Cornwall Press staff on the verbiage all came together to bring this work

home to the world in February 1939.



I am a better and more appreciative AA member and historian because of the

actions of those founders.

Rick, Illinois



p.s. in that talk on the Big Book's history, instead of dropping names that

no one would remember, the career occupations of Big Book writers (in all

the first three editions) brought an insight to those at the conference and

I credited this egroup (and our initial 'aahistorybuffs') as a primary

source. Love to you all, ---R.









_____



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell K.

Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:11 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Big Book "Outline"







.



<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=6460000/grpspId=1705237878/msgId

=4294/stime=1177854919/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4296 John Lee
Re: Re: Big Book "Outline" Big Book "Outline" 4/29/2007 1:52:00 PM


Mitchell,

I never claimed that the twelve page document was false or forged. The terms

"putative" and "purported" refer to your conclusion that the first page was an

"outline" of the Big Book. It was no such thing. Please review your own How It

Worked book where you make that claim repeatedly on pages 96, 98 and 102.[eg,

"Hank wrote, in his outline for the book, p. 102"].

"Hanks ideas" did not make it into the Big Book. There is no evidence, direct

or circumstantial, that the purported outline was even circulated to anyone

other than Bill or Hank, let alone becoming the "guidelines for the writing

efforts of AA's founders,who supplied their manuscripts (sic)", as claimed in

your book at page 98. The ideas in those twelve pages did not make it into the

big book, at least until the 1941 Second Printing when Hank's ideas about

spiritual experience were included in the Spiritual Experience Appendix. It

would be helpful if you posted the alleged samples of Hank's writings on the

Internet, so impartial parties could compare those writings with the purported

"outline".

love+service,

john lee

vist@yahoo.com> wrote:



How I came upon that document was in fact to verify

that it actually was Hank’s handwriting. I was asked

by the then archivist at Stepping Stones to view the

pages there. They had no samples of Hank’s handwriting

to compare it with.



I brought a few of Hank’s handwritten letters with me

and we compared the document against actual samples.

Another verification came through Merton M. who also

is familiar with Hank’s writing (both style and actual

handwriting). To my knowledge, Merton and I are

probably two of the very few people around who

actually could verify Hank’s handwriting. Neither Nell

Wing nor Frank M. had samples of Hank’s handwriting to

compare it to when I brought copies of the document to

them.



While some may argue semantics, what I wrote was that

“Hanks ideas” was his outline FOR the book and not an

outline OF the book. Hank’s notations were part of the

discussion stages not only for the writing of the book

but for the promotion of the book as well. The book

was not yet written at that time and the first chapter

was in the dictation stage. They were also discussing

the demographics of what type of persons the stories

would represent. Not included with Hank’s proposal

published on-line was another document outlining

prospective authors. These authors were not listed by

name but by the listing of whether or not they were

low bottom or high bottom, whether or not they had

slipped, their occupation, geographic location, etc.

Not published on the net but included with the

document was also a list of occupations of

prospective authors for the story section. There were

25 occupations numbered and listed. Some had a check

next to the name. I’m not sure what the check

signified but I will not where they appeared with an *

(The first two are pretty obvious):

1. Broker *

2. Surgeon

3. Politician

4. Executive *

5. Sales Manager *

6. Author *

7. Radio Man

8. Laborer *

9. Accountant *

10. Proprietor very large retail business *

11. Housewife *

12. Mechanic *

13. Judge *

14. Insurance *

15. Teacher

16. Upholsterer

17. Gardener

18. Salesman

19. Book Agent

20. Test car driver

21. Farmer

22. Laboratory technician

23. banker

24. athlete

25. Oil man



John States that : “The first page is not an "outline"

of the Big Book, as claimed by some, but appears to be

an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book.”

The first page is actually an outline of the

proceeding pages. If it were merely a business plan to

promote the book why then would it list:



• Preface of the book

• The Program

• The aim of the book

• What is an alcoholic

• The medical chapter

• In the book should be suggestions regarding

hospitalization

• Dr. Silkworth letters



Page 2 states under “Why the Book,” that “The work has

become so broad that full time assistance and

direction is needed. This costs money (which has been

offered by foundational funds) however the alcoholics

believe it should come from within their own

experience.”



On page 3 under “Questions and Answers” it asks in

part:

• How do I know this will work with me? Why is this

method better than any other religious method? (It is

not – this is only a step toward a religious

experience which should be carried forward in

Christian fellowship no matter what your church)

• Will I fail if I cannot keep my conduct up to these

highest standards?

• What happens when an alcoholic has a sexual relapse?



Under Suggestions for Chapter 1 on page 5 it calls for

“A History of the work – Possibly this could be

carried on the first two pages of the book. This

history should establish proof of success of the work

and carry ‘hope’ to everyone that reads that much. The

opening of the book should arouse the emotion of

hope.” This does not sound like a sales promotion but

rather a suggestion relating to the actual writing and

outline for the book.



This document relates not only to the sales and

promotion of the yet unwritten book, it addresses

proposals for what Hank feels should be included and

why these subjects should be included.



There is no significance as to where in the document

Bill wrote “Hanks ideas”. Bill wanted to identify

whose ideas these were and the bottom of the page was

open. Hank probably handed these pages to Bill and

they discussed them. Bill wanted to file these with

materials relating to the writing of the book as the

book was being written and wrote “Hanks ideas” as a

means of identification of whose ideas the were. Bill

did not hand Hank a blank piece of paper with the

title Hank’s Ideas and ask Hank to write an essay.

Hank and Bill were partners in the work and the fact

that equal partners do not need to quibble about

whether or not Bill’s notation came BEFORE or AFTER

the “purported” outline of suggested ideas for the

book and promotion of the book. Taking the document in

its entirety, it is in no way just a sales promotion

prospectus or “Business Plan.” Given the fact that

Bill and Hank were partners in the writing of the

book, they bounced ideas off each other in that very

small office on the 6h floor at 17 William St in

Newark. Also, to infer that Hank’s ideas did not make

it into the book does not take into account what is

addressed in the entire document. Maybe not specific

subject titles on the cover page but in fact what

made it into the book IS covered in this document.



In conclusion – Verification that the document was

Hank’s handwriting was made by comparing actual

letters written by Hank against the original document

by several individuals – Frank M., Nell Wing, myself,

Merton M. and the then archivist at Stepping stones.

The document came from Stepping Stones and were part

of Bill’s materials relating to the writing of the

book. Bill’s handwriting as to “Hanks ideas” was also

verified by the aforementioned individuals.



To infer that just because Bill annotated “Hanks

ideas” AFTER the title page as anything other than as

a means of identifying the document is also a stretch

and to question the veracity of the document by words

such as purported or putative implies fabrication. The

FACT that the document was verified to be Hank’s

handwriting by at least four individuals including the

former archivist at GSO, the then current archivist at

GSO, the then archivist at Stepping Stones and

probably the only two other people in the world who

had samples of Hank’s actual handwriting would

probably stand up in court. The FACT that this

document was part of Bill’s papers relating to the

writing of the book and was housed in the archival

repository at Bill and Lois’ home at Stepping Stones

would verify its authenticity and also stand up in

court. The FACT that if one looked at any author’s

notes during the writing process of their books or

papers one would usually not find these documents,

ideas, scribbling, etc. dated or titled. I am also

sure that if one looked at the handwritten story

submissions also stored at Stepping Stones you would

not find these dated or titled either. The actual

titles for the stories in the book were not submitted

by the authors of the stories but were decided upon

AFTER the stories were submitted. I take umbrage to

the inference of fabrication as well. I did not seek

out this document. At the time it was discovered I was

asked as one of probably only two or three people in

the world familiar with Hank’s handwriting and in

possession of actual letter written by Hank to verify

the handwriting. As a matter of course I showed the

document and samples of Hank’s handwriting to several

other “experts” in AA documents to verify my findings.



Mitchell K.



--- johnlawlee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com> wrote:



> Although styled as "Hanks [sic] letter [sic]", the

> twelve pages of

> lined tablet appear to be handwritten notes from

> two, or possibly

> three, different persons. The pages are undated and

> untitled. The

> handwriting saying "Hanks ideas" is most likely Bill

> Wilson's

> inscription, but does anyone have facts to

> authenticate that any of

> the writing on those twelve pages is Hank

> Parkhurst's? It is

> significant that the notation "Hanks ideas" come

> AFTER the purported

> outline,not before; consequently, Hank's ideas would

> be the material

> coming after the putative outline. The first page

> is not

> an "outline" of the Big Book, as claimed by some,

> but appears to be

> an outline of a Business Plan to promote the Book.

> In any case, few

> if any of those ideas made their way into the Big

> Book. It seems

> quite a stretch to claim that the first page is an

> outline of what

> became the Big Book. While "Hanks ideas" didn't make

> it into the

> manuscript or the First Printing, they DID become

> the incubator for

> the Spiritual Experience Appendix in the Second

> Printing [and

> subsequent printings/editions].

> john lee













---------------------------------

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?

Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4297 Fiona Dodd
Jung Jung 4/30/2007 12:53:00 PM


Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of

treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia".

According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis couple

with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected family,

had a likeable wife and no cares-externally speaking. Only he drank too

much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading

position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a

she wa sunder the mothers influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung

approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced her

to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism.

The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his

alcoholism.



Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes

no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it

interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer

treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis.



Fiona





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4298 jenny andrews
RE: Jung Jung 4/30/2007 1:30:00 PM


The following is extracted from a letter by Michael Bruwer, MD, in the

magazine "Parabola", Vol XII, No 4, November 1987: 'Jung's position on

alcoholism and the recovery from it did not spring solely from his own mind

and his discoveries about the religious nature of the psyche. Jung trained

at the Burgholzli Asylum in Zurich. Its former director August Forel turned

it over to his student Eugen Bleuler, who was Jung's teacher. When Forel

first took over running the asylum he was very humbled by his terrible

results from treating alcoholics, which he did by trying to enjoin them to a

pattern of moderate drinking (wine was still part of the regimen for staff

and patients). Forel was then strongly influenced by his local shoemaker

Jacob Bosshardt, a member of the local society of the Blue Cross, a

Methodist abstainers' group. At Forel's invitation Bosshardt successfully

treated a number of Forel's patients with abstinence. Forel was so impressed

that he implemented the abstinence program coupled with aftercare for

alcoholics at the Burgholzli. Forel became an abstainer himself. His staff

followed his example, including Bleuler and the young Dr Jung. Jung

maintained his abstinence until continued harrassment and belittlement for

it by Sigmund Freud induced him to cease abstaining. Forel is respected in

Switzerland where he appears on the thousand-franc note and on a stamp. It

is to him and his shoemaker Jacob Bosshardt that we must look for a major

root of AA."





>From: "Fiona Dodd" <fionadodd@eircom.net>

>Reply-To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

>To: <aahistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Jung

>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:53:18 +0100

>

>Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of

>treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia".

>According to the account by Jung, the man had an ordinay neurosis couple

>with a formidable mother complex. "He came from a rich and respected

>family,

>had a likeable wife and no cares-externally speaking. Only he drank too

>much." The mother owned a large company and the son occupied a leading

>position in it. After a brief treatment he stopped drinking but as soon a

>she wa sunder the mothers influence again, he took to the bottle. Jung

>approached the mother during her next visit to Switzerland and convinced

>her

>to let the son go from his position otherwise he would die from alcoholism.

>The patient went on to forge a successful career and overcame his

>alcoholism.

>

>Anyone any idea who this guy was? All of this occured around 1909. He makes

>no further mention in this book of treating other alcoholics. I find it

>interesting that by the time he came to treat Rowland H he was no longer

>treating alcoholism as being a manifestation of a neurosis.

>

>Fiona

>

>

>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>



_________________________________________________________________

Solve the Conspiracy and win fantastic prizes.

http://www.theconspiracygame.co.uk/


0 -1 0 0
4299 chesbayman56
Significant May Dates in A.A. History Significant May Dates in A.A. History 4/30/2007 9:47:00 PM


May

May 1919 - Bill returns home from service.

(Dec 1934 to) May 1935 - Bill works with alcoholics, but fails to

sober any of them. Lois reminds him HE is still sober.

March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

May 1939 - Lois W Home Replacement Fund started at Alcoholic

Foundation.

May 1949 - The first AA meetings in Scotland were held in Glasgow and

Edinburgh.

May 1950 - Nell Wing became Bill W's secretary.

May 1951 - Al-Anon is founded by Lois W. and Anne B.

May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street. (sometimes

reported as April 26, 1939)

May 1, 1940 - Rollie H, Cleveland Indians, first anonymity break on

national level.

May 1, 1941 - The first Wisconsin AA meeting was held at a hotel in

Milwaukee.

May 2, 1941 - Jacksonville, FL newspaper reported the start of an AA

group in Jacksonville.

May 3, 1941 - The first AA group in New Orleans, Louisiana, was

formed. (sometimes dated as May 2, 1943)

May 3, 1941 - Democrat Chronicle in Rochester, NY, reported first

annual AA dinner at Seneca hotel with 60 attending.

May 4, 1940 - Sunday Star reported founding of first AA group in

Washington, DC.

May 6, 1939 - Clarence S of Cleveland told Dr. Bob, his sponsor, he

would not be back to Oxford Group meetings in Akron and would start

an "AA" meeting in Cleveland.

May 6, 1946 - The long form of the "Twelve Traditions" was published

in the AA Grapevine.

May 8, 1943 - Akron AA Group celebrates 8th anniversary with 500

present and sober.

May 8, 1971 - Bill W buried in private ceremony, East Dorset, Vermont.

May 10, 1939 - Clarence S announced to the Akron Oxford Group members

that the Cleveland members were starting a meeting in Cleveland and

calling it Alcoholics Anonymous.

May 11, 1935 - Bill W made calls from the Mayflower Hotel and was

referred to Dr. Bob.

May 11, 1939 - first group to officially call itself Alcoholics

Anonymous met at Abby G's house in Cleveland. (some sources say the

18th)

May 12, 1935 @ 5 pm - Bill W met Doctor Bob at the home of Henrietta

Seiberling.

May 15, 1961 - Bill W's mother, Dr Emily Strobell, died.

May 16, 1941 - Ruth Hock finds that Joe W. (or V.), credited with

coming up with the name Alcoholics Anonymous, has a "wet brain".

May 17, 1942 - The Dayton Journal Herald published pictures of AA

members wearing masks to protect their anonymity.

May 17, 1942 - New Haven, Conn paper has article on AA. Picture shows

faces of members sitting in a circle.

May 18, 1950 - Dr. Bob tells Bill "I reckon we ought to be buried

like other folks" after hearing that local AA's want a huge memorial.

May 19, 2000 - Dr. Paul O., Big Book story "Doctor, Alcoholic,

Addict" (renamed "Acceptance Was the Answer" in the 4th edition) died

at the age of 83.

May 28, 1974 - The first World Service Meeting of AA outside North

America was held in London.

May 29, 1980 - "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" was published.


0 -1 0 0
4300 corafinch
Re: Jung Jung 4/30/2007 6:36:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com "Fiona Dodd" <fionadodd@...> wrote:

>

> Have just read Jungs Memories, Dreams and Reflections in which he speaks of

> treating an American patient for "alcoholic neurasthenia".



It was Medill McCormick. There is a connection, although distant, with Rowland

Hazard.

Two of Rowland's college friends were Robert McCormick, Medill's younger

brother, and

George Porter, Medill's close friend. During the time Rowland's cousin Leonard

was in the

process of persuading him to go to Zurich, Leonard happened to run into George

Porter--

apparently it was truly a coincidence. Porter was devoted to Jung, so Leonard

asked him to

talk to Rowland.



Medill did give up alcohol, although not necessarily immediately after his

analysis. He left

the family business (The Chicago Tribune) and entered politics, rising to United

States

Senator from Illinois. The account Jung gives of how he handled Medill's mother

may not

be precisely correct, as it conflicts with some other information available

about the

situation.



Medill McCormick died of a barbiturate overdose, apparently intentional, in

February 1925.

George Porter died exactly two years later, a suicide by gunshot. Rowland Hazard

lost

touch with Robert McCormick (later Tribune editor, not very friendly guy) some

time after

1910.



I'm not sure if we really know what Jung's therapeutic approach was to Rowland,

or how

much it had in common with his approach to Medill. Eighteen years is a long

time, but

there was nevertheless a certain continuity to Jung's thought.



Cora


0 -1 0 0
4301 Mitchell K.
Re: Re: Big Book "Outline" Big Book "Outline" 4/30/2007 7:11:00 PM


John Lee,



The "alleged" samples of Hank's handwriting are in the

form of letters to Clarence Snyder from Hank

Parkhurst. Clarence and Hank were brother's-in-law and

Clarence at one time worked for Hank as a salesperson.

These "alleged" letters were in their original

envelopes as well for the most part.



I cannot publish these "alleged" samples on the net

because like most of the collection I used for

research, they are at Brown University for

preservation and availability for future researchers.



Some of the reasons the collection went to Brown was

that when I first started my research I had excellent

access to the archives at GSO. Nell allowed me to

view, take notes and study most of the holdings at

GSO. Frank M. also allowed me pretty much unfettered

access until the Trustees Archives Committee tied his

hands. When I made written request to view materials

relating to a particular time frame or subject matter

the Archives Committee told Frank that I had to be

specific as to exactly what I was looking for. I asked

Frank for a list of holdings so that I could comply

with their requirement. Frank told me that the

committee would not release such a list and that in

fact, I had to somehow know exactly what I was looking

for so that I could request viewing it.As I had no

idea what their holdings consisted of I could make no

such request. Frank apologized and said that his hands

were tied and he couldn't help me.



I had read in some of Clarence's correspondence that

he gave several boxes of archival materials to the AA

club in Midland Texas. I found out who to contact in

Midland and called requesting information as to what

they had. I was told that Frank M. had come to Midland

and convinced them that he should take their holdings

back to NY and have them housed at the GSO Archives.

He promised that they would receive copies of the

materials in exchange. My contact stated he was

awaiting the copies and he would be happy to share

them with me. I waited and when I contacte the Midland

group they told me that all they had received from

Frank at GSO were several typed pages in an inventory

stating what the piece of documentation was, the box

and file number GSO held them in. They could not help

me with copies of the material they no longer had.



I asked for photocopies of the inventory and when I

received them I wrote to GSO again and this time

requested specific documents including their own box

number and file names. Frank called me up soon after

this request stating that the Archives Committee

demanded where I got this information. I told him that

I was aware of what had transpired in Midland and he

again apologized and said that his hands were tied. I

eventually got access to the materials.



I can also remember bringing several dozen binders of

documents to the GSO archives and Frank invited Nell

to look at these as well. We s