tblYgr_AAHistoryLovers
YahooMessageID From FromEmail Subject SubjectSrt RecDate Message AttCount NewMsgFlag DelMsgFlag FavMsgFlag
3976 Chuck David
Re: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions 12/30/2006 2:09:00 AM

The video "Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions"
is available from GSO (VS-20). It is in the
current catalog in the AV material section
catalog number (VS-20) a 1/2 in VHS video price
$15.00. ** Bill Discusses the Twelve Traditions
-- Bill W. tells how the principles safeguarding
AA unity developed. 60 minutes.

I own a copy of this video and have dubed it
to DVD to save it for future use. My VCR only
works intermittantly and find that DVD format
is the way to go...

I have noticed that many of the AV materials
GSO offers are on VHS format. Even at a recent
Area meeting there was extensive discussion on
producing materials in DVD format vice VHS
format... .I believe it was the ASL signing of
the Big Book which is available however excludes
most of the stories from the back of the book.

You may contact GSO to receive a catalog of
materials available their number is 1-212-870-3312
/ this is also the order number if you decide
to order the VHS tape.

Hope this was helpful.



C h u c k D a v i d
cuzimacowboy2@yahoo.com
Litrature & GV rep
Oak Harbor Group
Oak Harbor, WA

- - - - - - -

Thanks to all, we got the same information
from a number of our members:

"Bent Christensen" <bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>
(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

"Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

alan dobson <dobbo101@yahoo.com>
(dobbo101 at yahoo.com)

Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)
"momaria33772" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

Gary Rohde <feelgoodcp@yahoo.com>
(feelgoodcp at yahoo.com)

ROGER WHEATLEY <chief_roger@yahoo.com>
(chief_roger at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
3977 Arthur Sheehan
RE: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions 12/30/2006 6:33:00 AM

The VHS tape is Conference-approved service
material. You can purchase it directly from AAWS
in NY or through your local Intergroup Central
Office. It is item number (VS-20) and costs $15.

It might better be called "Bill Discusses Ten of
the Twelve Traditions." He got a little pressed
for time near the end and had to skip two of
them.

There are two other VHS tapes that you might
be interested in: "Bill's Own Story" (VS-21 - $15)
and "Markings on the Journey" (M-57 - $16) which
is an hour history of AA.

All three items are designated as "confidential
and available to AA members only." The catalog
asks you to order through your group. If you
know your group's service number then you can
order it directly by:

Phone: 1-212-870-3312 Order Entry Dep't)
Fax: 1-212-870-3137 or 1-800-437-3584
Mail: AAWS, PO Box 459, Grand Central Station, NY, NY 10163
Email: orders@aa.org

Call the Order Entry Dep't for assistance. They
are very friendly and helpful.

Cheers
Arthur

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3978 chesbayman56
Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 1/1/2007 2:33:00 PM

Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking.
Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.
Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of
"Alcoholics Anonymous".
Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression.
Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA.
Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan
Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob.
Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety".
Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus,
Ohio Central Group.
Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland.
Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded.
Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan.
Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get
away from the Oxford Group atmosphere".
Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years
sober.
Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics
Anonymous, died.
Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group.
Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School,
Akron, Ohio.
Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years
dies.
Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician
Heal Thyself" died.
Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC.
Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri.
Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto.
Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in
Oct 24 1943.
Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in
his sleep.
Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in
Pennington, New Jersey.
Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.
Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church
in
Brookyn Heights.
Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis
Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL.
Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley.
Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1.
Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus
Contra
Spiritum".
End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for
comment, evaluation and sale.

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3979 spebsqsa@att.net
Not AA Number Three Not AA Number Three 1/1/2007 9:54:00 PM

Bill W and Dr Bob worked with two other
alcoholics in 1935 before succeeding with
Bill Dotson who became AA Number Three.
There was a Dr McKay and then Edgar (Eddie)
Reilly. Where do those two fit in this
timeline?

May 11 -- Bill W calls Reverend Tunks.
May 12 -- Mothers Day. Bill W and Dr Bob meet.
June 10 -- Dr Bob's last drink.
June 17 -- (other possible last drink date)
June 26 -- Bill D enters Akron's City Hospital.
June 28 -- Bill W and Dr Bob visit Bill D.

That isn't even seven weeks and Dr Bob was away
getting drunk at a medical conference part of
that time. When did they work with the other two
unsuccessful AA #3 candidates? Was either around
at the time of Bob's slip? Did either of them
visit Bill D in the hospital. Did Bill D help
during Eddie's slippery period?

If Dr Bob and Bill worked with Eddie "throughout
the summer," then he must have been around for
a while after Bill D became part of the group.
It would be interestig to know the full sequence.

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3980 Glenn Chesnut
Emmet Fox''s secretary''s connection to early AA Emmet Fox''s secretary''s connection to early AA 12/31/2006 5:26:00 PM

The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox
contains the following sentence:

"Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the
men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous
co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result
of this connection early AA groups often went
to hear Fox."

If this statement is correct, can anyone in
our web group give me this man's name?

Glenn Chesnut, South Bend

P.S. It is well known to AA historians that in
New York, "early AA groups often went to hear
Fox." It is not that, but the first part of that
sentence in the wikipedia article that I would
like to know more about.

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3981 Susie Dixon
United Kingdom GSO: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions United Kingdom GSO: Film of Bill W. on the Twelve Traditions 12/30/2006 4:34:00 PM

Hi everyone

I got my copy of the DVD from GSO in UK.

Hope this helps. I presume GSO USA have copies.

All good wishes to everyone for 2007

Susie D in the UK

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3982 John Blair
Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 12/31/2006 2:41:00 PM

Regarding Glenn's reply about St, Monica,
other patron saints of alcoholism include John
of God, Martin of Tours, Matthias the Apostle,
and Unban of Langres. Others were recognized
as saints in part through their work with
alcoholics.

Perhaps the most notable person today who is in
process of being recognized a saint is the
Venerable Matt Talbot (1856-1925) of Dublin,
Ireland. A few books look at his recovery journey
in light of the twelve steps.

The patron saint of hangovers is St. Bibiana
(Vivian) who lived in 4th century Rome. She
is also the patron saint of the Diocese of
Los Angeles.

John Blair

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3983 Bill Lash
Jack Norris'' Talk at Bill W.''s Funeral (1971) Jack Norris'' Talk at Bill W.''s Funeral (1971) 1/1/2007 8:30:00 AM

DR. JACK NORRIS' TALK
MEMORIAL SERVICES for BILL WILSON
NEW YORK, N.Y. FEB. 14TH, 1971

Our beloved Bill is dead. Even as I stand before
you and say the words, I cannot really believe
that it is true. In my heart I choose to believe
that Bill is here with us at this very moment.
And I somehow can almost hear him saying in that
half-amused, half embarrassed way of his, "Oh
come on now Jack, do you really think all this
fuss is necessary?"

Two weeks ago, at a meeting of your Board of
Trustees, shortly after Bill's passing, there
was a rather lively discussion about a matter
involving the whole fellowship. When it had
reached a certain level of intensity, I found
myself waiting to hear Bill speak up, as he so
often did and say those few words that would
put everything in perspective. But he didn't
speak. And it was then that I realized way down
deep that we would never hear his voice again
... that we could no longer count on the constant
presence of his wisdom and strength. We could
never again say as we had said so many times
before, "Bill, what do you think?" And I at
least, have not yet come to accept this
completely.

Bill was no saint. He was an alcoholic and a
man of stubborn will and purpose. How else could
he have lived through the years of frustration,
failure, and discouragement while the steps, the
traditions, and the conference were being hammered
out on the anvil of hard experience with the
first few groups? That he had the self-honesty,
the clarity of vision to see the vital necessity
for the Third Step, and turning one's life and
will over to a Higher Power is just one part of
our great good fortune that Bill lived. I have
seen Bill's pride and I have seen his humility.
And I have been present when people from far
countries have met him for the first time and
started to cry. And all Bill - that shy Vermonter
- could do was stand there and look like he
wanted to run from the room. No, Bill was no
saint, although many of us wanted to make him
into one. Knowing this, he was insistent that
legends about him be kept to a minimum - that
accurate records be kept so that future
generations would know him as a man. He was a
very human person -- to me an exceptionally human
person.

Bill's constant concern during almost all of
the years that I knew him was that Alcoholics
Anonymous should always be available for the
suffering alcoholic--that the mistakes that led
to the fading of previous movements to help
alcoholics should be avoided. To me one measure
of his greatness is the clarity of his vision
of the future in his determination to let go
of us long before we were willing to let go of
him.

Bill was a good sponsor, - the wise old timer
determined to relinquish the role of founder
because he knew that A.A. must, as he would say,
come of age and take complete responsibility
for itself. He had an abiding faith that our
Fellowship not only could, but should run without
him. Repeatedly, during the last few years, he
has said in General Service Conference sessions
"We have nothing to fear." Bill believed that
the wisdom of A.A. came out of church basements
and not from the pulpit; that it was directed
from the groups to the Trustees rather than the
other way around. He sometimes felt, though,
when the Conference disagreed with him as it
sometimes did, that its conscience needed to be
better informed, but it was this way that we
really shared experience and developed strength
and confidence that the answers would work out.

Bill knew that it was not one voice that should
be heard, but many thousands of voices. And it
was his gift that he was able to listen to them
all, then, out of the noise and confusion discern
the group conscience. Then he would put it all
together, the tension of argument would fade,
and everyone would realize that his answer was
right. What Bill's death means to me now is,
that all of us--all of us: you, the delegates,
the Trustees--will have to listen much more
carefully than we once did in order to make out
the voice of the group conscience.

And I know that this is possible. Bill has trained
us for it beginning in St. Louis in 1955. For
this was Bill's vision -- to create a channel
of communication within the Fellowship of
Alcoholics Anonymous that would make it possible
for everyone to be hear: from the individual
through the group, to the delegates and to the
Trustees, so that A.A. will always be here to
extend a hand to the drunk who is at this very
moment crying out in the darkness of his night
as he reaches for help.

In closing, I want to say that it has been an
honor for me to have had this opportunity to
participate with you in giving thanks to God
that Bill lived and was given the wisdom and
strength and courage to make the world a better
place for all of us. There are many more things
I could say, but what can one say finally of a
man's goodness and greatness? How many ways
can you take his measure? I cannot do it or say
it for any of you -- only for myself. He was
the greatest and wisest man I ever knew. Above
everything, he was a man. And I believe that he
left his goodness and greatness and wisdom with
us, for any of us to take in what measure we can.
May God grant us the wisdom and strength to keep
Alcoholics Anonymous alive, vital, attractive,
unencumbered by the egocentricities that can so
easily spoil it.

0 -1 0 0
3984 Mel Barger
Re: The "attack" was by Jerome E., not Barry L. The "attack" was by Jerome E., not Barry L. 12/30/2006 10:05:00 AM

Hi Ernie,

Jerome Ellison was a regular contributor to
The Saturday Evening Post and may have offered
his article to them. But he did publish one in
The Nation in 1964 and the title might have been
"Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?" He actually
called me for a piece of information while he
was writing the article, but he got it wrong
when it was published. The matter in question
concerned AA in southern Michigan and he somehow
converted it to AA in the South!

Jerry was upset with AA leadership because he
had been fired as editor of the Grapevine after
a short stay there. Bill took on the duty of
firing him, since Bill had recommended him for
the job. Jerry was an excellent writer and
editor but he had trouble getting along with
people at work I met him at the Grapevine
offices while he was there and was very much
impressed by his background. He was a University
of Michigan graduate and had been a close college
friend of one of our AAs in Jackson, Michigan.

The Saturday Evening Post did run a nasty
article in the Sept. 19, 1964, issue by Arthur
Cain, the same man who had written "Alcoholics
Anonymous---Cult or Cure?" for the February
1963 Harper's Magazine. Cain wrote Bill a
letter of apology for the Saturday Evening
Post article and blamed its nastiness on the
editors. Bill, though usually very kind to
critics, did not cut him much slack in replying
to Cain's apology.

We will have to get together soon with
Kathleen and Father Dave; both have mentioned
it to me. As I told you, Kathleen has been able
to publish a few items to help her in her quest
for tenure at UT.

Happy New Year to you and Linda, Ernie. I am
grateful for your friendship and all the help
and encouragement you've givien me the past
twenty-seven years.

Mel

Mel Barger / melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

0 -1 0 0
3985 Bob McK.
RE: How to take Akron tour? How to take Akron tour? 12/30/2006 9:25:00 AM

I would suggest stopping first at the Akron
Intergroup Office, 775 N. Main St., Akron, Ohio
44310, to view their fantastic history display
in timeline order, and get maps. They are open
9-5 weekdays and 9-1 on Saturday, other
arrangements may be possible. You can see part
of that here:

http://akronaa.org/Archives/tour/tour2.html

Some other questions can be answered by calling
them: 330/253-8181

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Jocelyn <prpllady51@yahoo.com>
(prpllady51 at yahoo.com)

Telephone:
Intergroup Office: (330) 253-8181
Toll free (in Ohio): 1-800-897-6737
Fax: (330) 253-8292

Dr. Bob's House is open Noon to 3pm every day
except Christmas. Also the home next door
serves as a museum for AA pictures and all sorts
of artifacts.

The cemetery where Dr Bob is buried is a short
drive from the house. When we were at Dr Bob's
House they had a map of the area with directions
to the various sites of interest.

The Mayflower Hotel is now a personal care home
but they have kept the Lobby intact. If you
tell the people at the home that you are a
"friend of Bill W's" and would like to see the
lobby you can get access.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Jayaa82@earthlink.net"
<Jayaa82@earthlink.net>
(Jayaa82 at earthlink.net)

I am a volunteer at the Akron Archives located
in the Akron Intergroup office. (775 N Main St,
Akron 44310)

That would be a great place to start, with
enough advance notice the archivist can meet
you there and give you a tour of the archives,
and we have maps to get you to Dr Bob's, the
gatehouse, Mayflower, Dr. Bob's grave, etc.

Call the office for info, they will be glad
to help (330) 253-8181

Jay Moore

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From: "mchugh1652" <mchugh1652@ameritech.net>
(mchugh1652 at ameritech.net)

http://www.akronaa.org/ The Akron Intergroup
Office website. There used to be a map and
tour information on it but I can't find it
right now. We also used to have volunteeers
who could lead groups on a tour but I'm not sure
of the status of that service at this point
either.

Woody W could probably fill you in on both
items or you can certainly call the office
330-253-8181. If you have any questions I'd
be glad to help, you can reply to my email
address:

<mchugh1652@ameritech.net>
(mchugh1652 at ameritech.net)

Please also take a look at the archives
portion of the website, there is alot of good
info about the history of Akron AA on there
(and a lot more at the archives).

I look forward to being of service.

Peter McH. from Akron

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "ricktompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>
(ricktompkins at comcast.net)

I can suggest starting off at the Akron Intergroup
Office on N. Main. The sequence of where you visit
can be guided by an available tour map from the
Office.

Call ahead, ask for a viewing of the Archives
at the Intergroup Office -- the Akron Archives
is a top-flight museum site, and I'm sure Gail
LaCroix or Jim Burns would be happy to greet you,
and perhaps arrange a personal guided tour with
a local volunteer.

On your tour, remember to plan a quiet time at
Dr. Bob's gravesite ...

After all the touring, get to a meeting, too!
The Arid Club on the southeast side has a good
speaker meeting.

Most of all, you will heartily enjoy the trip!

Rick, Illinois

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: daniel dougherty <olddand@msn.com>
(olddand at msn.com)

You have a pretty good tour of Akron already
mapped out. I would suggest you add the
Gatehouse to your tour of the Seiberling
estate (and allow enough time to tour the
flowers while you're there).

There is a house next to Dr. Bob's House, in
which the Akron office maintains a pretty good
collection of AA historical items.

BTW, don't miss the Akron office itself. It
has a great display in its meeting room.

Also be sure to try and schedule a meeting with
the Akron historian, who is also located in the
rooms where the Akron office is located.

If you have time, you might also like to
attend an Aakron meeting or two. Many of them
have historical backgrounds and display items.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Sheryl Sizemore <sherylsizemore@yahoo.com>
(sherylsizemore at yahoo.com)

I can say it's a spiritual experience.

All you need to do is call Dr. Bob's House
which is open from noon until 3:00 pm daily,
phone 330-864-1935.

Or email them @ volunteers@drbobs.com

Internet address is www.drbobs.com

One of their volunteer coordinators (Rick W.)
took us to Dr. Bob's home, Seiberlings Estate,
Town's Hospital, and Dr. Bob's gravesite.

We also went to a meeting that night which
began in the old school.

Have a blessed trip and please share with us
your experience, strength, and hope.

Sheryl Sizemore
Holly Springs Group, GA

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Also from:
"Mike" <heat_cool2004@yahoo.com>
(heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
3986 chris mahl
Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. 1/1/2007 11:34:00 PM

I believe his name was Al Speckman.

I will dig out the reference and send it along.

Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill,
Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats
and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the
city.

I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs
in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and
phrases of Emmet's.

I'll send along another note with more specifics.

Best from NYC.

Chris M.


On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox
> contains the following sentence:
>
> "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the
> men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous
> co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result
> of this connection early AA groups often went
> to hear Fox."
>
> If this statement is correct, can anyone in
> our web group give me this man's name?
>
> Glenn Chesnut, South Bend


-----------------------
Chris Mahl
10 Ventures
PDA 917-902-4980
Fax 18668230272

0 -1 0 0
3987 Bob Wilson
Re: Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 1/2/2007 2:20:00 AM

Please take this with a grain of salt, but a
medallion was shown to me by a fellow AA back in
the seventies who was librarian at the state
supreme court in Hawai'i. She had a colleague
who was a learned nun, who when she got sober
gave her the medallion featuring a "Saint
McTavish [or MacTavish]" who the nun told her
was the patron saint of drunks. I'll bet this
list could grow to be a long one.

A good year to all of you,

Bob W.

0 -1 0 0
3988 Sober186@aol.com
AA No. 3? AA No. 3? 1/1/2007 7:39:00 PM

Some time between Dr. Bpb's last drink and the
when Bill and Dr. Bob first heard of Bill D.,
there was a man named Eddie R who was sober for
at least a few days.

In the book Dr. Bob And The Good Old Timers,
his escapades are described in the Chapter
beginning on page 76. He was apparently sober
off and on the summer of 1935. Bill D's wife
remembers Eddie being sober when Bill D.
got out of the hospital on July 4, 1935.

She is also quoted as saying "When Bill D.
came out of the hospital Dr. Bob had only been
sober three weeks. I thought they'd been sober
for years. I think my husband thought so too."

Eddie did not stay sober for any long strech in
the early days, but eventually put together at
least 7 years of continuous sobriety and visited
Bill in New York at the office. He said he was
the first one to get the program, and the first
one to reject it.

Jim L.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
3989 Chris Budnick
RE: Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 1/1/2007 11:37:00 PM

I've got a scanned copy of Bill's written
promises in his family bible. The specific date
of his third promise was January 12, 1929.

Bill wrote:

"To tell you once more that I am finished with
it. I love you."

_____

From: chesbayman56
Subject: Significant January Dates in A.A. History

"Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible
to quit drinking."

0 -1 0 0
3990 jenny andrews
60th anniv. of AA in Great Britain, plus new UK GSO address 60th anniv. of AA in Great Britain, plus new UK GSO address 1/2/2007 8:16:00 AM

Apropos the film of Bill W. on the Twelve
Traditions which is available from the United
Kingdom GSO.

The UK's GSO is moving this month to larger
premises. The new address will be:

PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green, York YO1 7NJ.

Telephone and email addresses stay the same.

By the way, it is the 60th anniversary of the
foundation of AA in Great Britain in March
this year.

Regards,
Laurie A.

0 -1 0 0
3991 george cleveland
Re: Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 1/2/2007 2:27:00 PM

Also being considered is Fr. Alfred Pampalon,
born in Levis, Quebec and entombed at St. Anne
de Beaupre north of Quebec City. FMI, see
http://repchret.chadcom.org/chapelle/pampalon1.html

George

0 -1 0 0
3992 Dennis M.
Significant January Dates/Questions Significant January Dates/Questions 1/2/2007 5:22:00 PM

I have a couple of questions relative to the
significant dates in AA history.

Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.

Who is Bob B.?

Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis

I remember doing some research at the New York
archives and noted that in 1946 the first group
of what I suspect were predominantly black
members located in the New York Harlem community
called itself the "St. Nicholas Interracial Group."

I noticed that several more groups came into
existence during the late 1940's/early '50's
also were listed as "Interracial" groups.

We know they would not have referred to
themselves as "black" in those days. Was it
their decision to call their groups "Interracial"
or was it another decision maker?

I always assumed that the reference to interracial
was a desire by those groups to convey the message
that anyone was welcome in their groups while we
know that not every group of AA in that timeframe
was welcoming to black alcoholic members.

Dennis Mardon

- - -

From Glenn Chesnut:

Although the first two black members in South
Bend did not come in until 1948, the fullest
account of early black AA people is, I believe,
still the one given in "The Factory Owner &
the Convict" and "The St. Louis Gambler & the
Railroad Man," with full accounts given in
these early black members' own words.

See:

http://hindsfoot.org/kfoc1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kstl1.html

Plus additional materials on John Shaifer, etc., at
http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html

and "Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-
South Bend Axis" at
http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html

In South Bend, one of the first two black
members eventually formed an "Interracial
Group," where the title was designed to make
it clear that white AA's were perfectly
welcome, but that there were going to be
black people there if they were still too
prejudiced to handle this.

That was the sole reason for giving the
group that name.

But Brownie, the other key black leader in
South Bend, was nevertheless opposed to the
formation of this group, and Goshen Bill
(the key black leader in the Elkhart/Goshen/
Kosciuscko county area) was extremely opposed
(to say the least) to having a group like
that.

Goshen Bill in particular said that "he had
gotten drunk with white men, Mexicans, and
Apache Indians," and that you didn't start
getting well from alcoholism until you
learned that alcohol affected all human
beings the same way, and that they all got
sober the same way.

This simply paralleled debates going on
among black Americans in the period after
school integration started, where you had
those who embraced integration fully on
one side of the spectrum, and a new group
of black separatists arising on the other
extreme, along with everything else in
between.

The "Interracial Group" in South Bend was
not a black separatist group however.
The name was merely a signal to
prejudiced white people that if they showed
up at this meeting, they had better stick
their prejudice in their coat pockets,
because there were going to be some very
good recovering black alcoholics there at
that meeting every week.

That group finally withered away around
1990 when it became an anachronism. No one
was surprised any longer to walk into an
AA meeting in South Bend, and see lots of
black people at some of these meetings,
and you didn't have to "warn people" in
advance. (Thank goodness!)

What is significant to me is that all the
material on early black AA history was
included in the material mentioned above,
NOT because of any desire to write "black
history." Bill Hoover, Brownie, and Goshen
Bill in particular were practically worshiped
by everybody in AA in north central Indiana,
and their memories are still kept in honor
to this day, because they spoke with such
enormous wisdom, and got so many people sober
of all skin colors.

They were simply AA at its very best.

0 -1 0 0
3993 ricktompkins
Re: Just for today card Just for today card 1/2/2007 9:11:00 PM

Seems the AA usage of the Just For Today card
comes and goes, but the Card is part of Al-Anon
Family Groups conference-approved literature that
is regularly emphasized and distributed for
Alateen use.

This thread lingers, group, and within the past
week I've seen some new interpretations.

AAWS never undertook this venture, perhaps the
"Where Do I Go From Here?" bookmark works in a
similar way...

Here's an AA-principle inspired piece, courtesy
of a member of another egroup (indiana fourth
dimension recovery), with thanks to Jerry O.:

JUST FOR TODAY

1. I WILL TRY TO LIVE THROUGH THIS DAY ONLY,
AND NOT TACKLE MY WHOLE LIFE'S PROBLEM AT ONCE.
I CAN DO THINGS FOR 12 HOURS THAT WOULD APPALL
ME IF I HAD TO KEEP IT UP FOR A LIFETIME.
THIS ESPECIALLY INCLUDES THE 12 STEPS.

2. I WILL BE HAPPY! THIS ASSUMES THAT WHAT
ABRAHAM LINCOLN SAID IS TRUE, THAT "MOST FOLKS
ARE ABOUT AS HAPPY AS THEY MAKE UP THEIR MINDS
TO BE." GOD INTENDED FOR US TO BE HAPPY,
JOYOUS AND FREE. I WILL AVOID THE DELIBERATE
MANUFACTURE OF MISERY.

3. I WILL TRY TO ADJUST MYSELF TO WHAT IS, AND
NOT TRY TO ADJUST EVERYTHING TO MY DESIRES.
I WILL TAKE MY FAMILY, MY BUSINESS, AND MY
LICKS AS THEY COME AND FIT MYSELF TO THEM JUST
AS THE SERENITY PRAYER SUGGEST.

4. I WILL TAKE CARE OF MY BODY. I WILL
EXERCISE IT, CARE FOR IT, NOURISH IT, NOT ABUSE
OR NEGLECT IT, SO THAT IT WILL BE A PERFECT
MACHINE FOR GOD'S BIDDING.

5. I WILL STRENGTHEN MY MIND THROUGH PRAYER
AND MEDITATION. I WILL LEARN SOMETHING USEFUL.
I WILL NOT BE A MENTAL LOAFER AND SEEK ONLY
THAT WHICH IS COMFORTABLE TO ME. I WILL READ
SOMETHING, THE BIG BOOK, SCRIPTURES OR SPIRITUAL
LITERATURE, THAT REQUIRES THOUGHT, EFFORT AND
CONSIDERATION.

6. I WILL EXERCISE MY SOUL BY SEEKING AND
DOING GOD'S WILL. I WILL DO A GOOD DEED AND
NOT LET ANYONE KNOW ABOUT IT. I WILL DO AT
LEAST TWO THINGS I DO NOT WANT TO DO. I WILL
REPRESENT THE PRINCIPLES OF AA IN ALL OF MY
AFFAIRS.

7. I WILL BE AGREEABLE SEEKING TO BRING PEACE
AND HARMONY, RATHER THAN CONFLICT AND CONFUSION
TO EVERY SITUATION. I WILL LOOK AS WELL AS I
CAN, DRESS AS BECOMINGLY AS POSSIBLE, TALK LOW,
ACT COURTEOUSLY, BE LIBERAL WITH PRAISE,
CRITICIZE NOT AT ALL, NOR FIND FAULT WITH
ANYTHING. I WILL NOT TRY TO REGULATE OR IMPROVE
ANYONE.

8. I WILL WORK THE PROGRAM OF AA TO THE BEST
OF MY ABILITY. I WILL TRY TODAY TO ELIMINATE
ONE OF MY DEFECTS OF CHARACTER--SELFISHNESS,
DISHONESTY, RESENTMENT OR FEAR--FROM MY LIFE
TODAY. BUT I WILL NOT FALL PREY TO UNREALISTIC
EXPECTATIONS. I WILL SEEK ONLY PROGRESS IN
THIS AREA, NOT PERFECTION.

9. I WILL START MY DAY WITH QUIET TIME. THIRTY
MINUTES IS DESIRABLE, BUT IF I CAN ONLY DO TWO
OR THREE MINUTES THAT IS FAR BETTER THAN NONE
AT ALL. IN THIS TIME I WILL SAY PLEASE GOD TAKE
MY WILL AND GUIDE MY LIFE. I WILL THANK GOD
SO AS TO GET A BETTER PERSPECTIVE ON LIFE.

10. I WILL BE UNAFRAID. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID
TO BE HAPPY. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO ENJOY
WHAT IS BEAUTIFUL. I WILL NOT BE AFRAID TO
LOVE AND TO BELIEVE THAT THOSE I LOVE, LOVE
ME. I WILL SEEK HONESTY, UNSELFISHNESS, LOVE
AND PURITY AS MY DESIRED STATE OF BEING TODAY.

11. I WILL LET GRATITUDE DRIVE MY ACTIONS,
RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO GOSSIP AND CRITICIZE,
REJECT RESENTMENT, TRY TO BE KIND AND GO OUT
OF MY WAY TO DO A GOOD DEED FOR SOMEONE.

12. I WILL OPEN UP MY HEART, MY LIFE AND MY
HOME TO THE STILL SUFFERING ALCOHOLIC WITH
THE REALIZATION THAT I AM THE RECIPIENT OF
ANOTHER ALCOHOLIC'S GRATITUDE. NO TASK SHALL
BE TO GREAT AND NO SOUL TO SMALL FOR ME
UNDERTAKE AS A THANKFUL BLESSING FOR THE LIFE
I DO NOT FULLY DESERVE, BUT SO RICHLY ENJOY.

0 -1 0 0
3994 feelgoodcp
The Bob P Book update to AACOA The Bob P Book update to AACOA 1/3/2007 10:41:00 PM

I was wondering if anyone had a PDF copy of the
book draft that Bob P. (Pearson)(sp) worked on
so long and could never get finished, not
because of the author but because of the way
AA had grown. I guess the conference has just
surrendered to the fact it cannot be done.

As I recall a draft had been placed before one
conference and if so that would be what I would
be looking for, the conference literature
attendees should have gotten a draft, anyone
have any information?

Gary R.

Please contact me directly at:

feelgoodcp@yahoo.com
(feelgoodcp at yahoo.com)

[From the moderator: the Yahoo group system
does not having a "forwarding button," so
if you have a copy, please send it directly
to Gary.]

0 -1 0 0
3995 Chris Budnick
RE: Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 1/3/2007 11:54:00 PM

This date should make the list, seeing how
Dr. Jung replied within a week:

Jan. 23, 1961 - Bill W. sends an appreciation
letter, which he considers long overdue, to
Dr. Carl Jung for his contribution to AA.

Source:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/wilsonletter.html

Chris

0 -1 0 0
3996 Mel Barger
Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. 1/5/2007 7:06:00 AM

Hi Chris,

Al Speckman sounds like the name, or is at
least close. I believe he was the fellow who
wrote the Responsibility Declaration.

Re Emmet Fox, I've been a devotee of his
writings for more than fifty years. I agree
that some of our terms came from Emmet, and I
commented on this in a short article which
Glenn posted on his website. Please visit:
http://www.hindsfoot.com/Fox1.html.

One very nice thing about Fox's writings is
that he made it a point to avoid words and
terms that are not in common usage.

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

----- Original Message -----
From: chris mahl

I believe his name was Al Speckman.

I will dig out the reference and send it along.

Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill,
Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats
and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the
city.

I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs
in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and
phrases of Emmet's.

I'll send along another note with more specifics.

Best from NYC.

Chris M.

On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox
> contains the following sentence:
>
> "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the
> men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous
> co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result
> of this connection early AA groups often went
> to hear Fox."
>
> If this statement is correct, can anyone in
> our web group give me this man's name?
>
> Glenn Chesnut, South Bend

0 -1 0 0
3997 John Wikelius
Early Grapevine Issues Early Grapevine Issues 1/1/2007 10:46:00 PM

Is there anyone out there who has a complete
set of Grapevines? I need covers from 1948 to
mid 1950's

nov85_gr@graceba.net

(nov85_gr at graceba.net)

__________________________________

From the moderator: please contact John Wikelius
directly at that email address, if you can help
him.

Remember that the Yahoo group system has
no "forward" button that I can click on to
forward messages which have been sent to the
AAHistoryLovers, where I can send them on to
a specific individual.

The only three options are "Post" (to the entire
group) or "Edit" or "Delete."

I am assuming that John needs something not
available from the version available online.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
3998 Mitchell K.
Re: Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. 1/4/2007 8:17:00 PM

I was under the impression that Al was one of the
first editors of the Grapevine and that his mother
lived in Cleveland.




--- chris mahl <chrismahl@gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe his name was Al Speckman.
>
> I will dig out the reference and send it along.
>
> Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill,
> Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats
> and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the
> city.
>
> I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs
> in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and
> phrases of Emmet's.
>
> I'll send along another note with more specifics.
>
> Best from NYC.
>
> Chris M.
>
>
> On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox
> > contains the following sentence:
> >
> > "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the
> > men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous
> > co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result
> > of this connection early AA groups often went
> > to hear Fox."
> >
> > If this statement is correct, can anyone in
> > our web group give me this man's name?
> >
> > Glenn Chesnut, South Bend
>
>
> -----------------------
> Chris Mahl
> 10 Ventures
> PDA 917-902-4980
> Fax 18668230272
>
>

0 -1 0 0
3999 acorelis
Re: Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 1/4/2007 4:22:00 PM

Here in Mexico there is a tongue in cheek retablo
to the Patron Saint of AA: San Expedido (pedido
is slang for drunk).

It comes complete with tiny beer bottles under
a circle with a slash through it ... quite a
charming piece of folk art.

0 -1 0 0
4000 t
Re: Re: Just for today card Just for today card 1/5/2007 9:31:00 AM

I guess I'm confused [again :) ]

What I have been thinking this thread was about
was a bookmark size card that has "Just for
Today" and a prayer by a Fra. Giovanni on one
side. And on the other it has a "Tenth Step
Checklist". I'll type it out as it appears on
what I have and paste it in below.

Could someone help me out and clarify what is
on the Al-Anon card or the one used in England?

------- side 1 -------

Just For Today

I salute you;
There is nothing I can give you
which you have not got;
but there is much, very much that,
while I cannot give it,

you can take.

No Heaven can come to us unless
our hearts find rest in today.
Take Heaven!

No peace lies in the future
which is not hidden in this present
little instant.
Take peace!

The gloom of the world is but a
shadow.
Behind it, yet within our reach is joy.

There is radiance and glory in the darkness
could we but see, and to see, we
have only to look;
I beseech you to look.

And so, at this time I greet you,
not quite as the world sends
greetings, but with profound esteem,
and with prayer that for you now
and forever the day breaks,
and the shadows flee away.

Fra. Giovanni - 1513 A.D.

------- side 2 -------

TENTH STEP CHECKLIST

1. Conscious Contact
(a) Did I start my day with a conscious
contact with God as I understand Him?
(b) Did I start my day with "Please"?
(c) Did I start my day asking for sobriety
and guidance?
2. Did I try to be pleasant to everyone?
3. Did I go out of my way to be kind or to do a
good deed for someone?
4. Did I demonstrate gratitude in my life?
5. Did I totally reject resentment?
6. Did I resist the PLOMS?
(Poor little old me's)
7. Did I indulge in any _________________ ?
(Your favorite character defect)
8. Did I resist the temptation to gossip or
criticize?
9. Did I have an AA contact today?
(reading, phone, or meeting)
10. Did I renew at any time during the day my
conscious contact with God as I
understand Him? (A quiet time, a meditation
break)
11. Will I close my day with "Thanks"?
12. ______________________________________
______________________________________
______________________________________
______________________________________
(Fill in your own or another person's
favorite daily aid to sobriety)

0 -1 0 0
4001 Mel Barger
Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al Steckman (correct spelling) Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al Steckman (correct spelling) 1/5/2007 7:28:00 AM

Chris,

I just pulled this up. It appears that the
name was "Steckman," not "Speckman."

Mel Barger

- - -

Alcoholics Anonymous and Other Twelve-Step
Programs in Relation to New Thought

The most important connection of AA and New
Thought was by means of the writings of popular
New Thought writer Emmet Fox. Igor I. Sikorsky,
Jr., in his AA's Godparents: Carl Jung, Emmet
Fox, Jack Alexander (Minneapolis: CompCare
Publishers, 1990, p. 20), says:

Perhaps Emmet Fox's fundamental contribution
to AA was the simplicity and power of The Sermon
on the Mount as well as his other books that
set forth in very simple language the truths
of the New Thought philosophy.

Sikorski especially refers to Fox's emphasis
on living in the present, similar to AA's
teaching one to live a day at a time. He finds
another similarity in nonownership of property
by AA and the Church of the Healing Christ,
of Fox, who used to speak in large public halls,
primarily in New York. The essential impossibility
of holding a mindset inconsistent with one's
lifestyle is another parallel. Sikorski says,
"Five of the original stories in the Big Book
were by early AA members deeply influenced by
Emmet Fox (p. 23)."

Sikorsky also notes (p. 19) that an early
recovering alcoholic who worked with co-founder
Bill Wilson was Al Steckman, whose mother was
Fox's secretary, and that as a result of this
connection early AA groups often would go to
listen to Fox.

A valuable writing is "New Thought and 12 Step
Recovery From Addiction: Practical American
Spiritualities" by Kenneth E. Hart, from
Spiritual and Religious Issues in Behaviour
Change, 9: 3-5. Hart's longer presentation on
this topic to the Society for the Study of
Metaphysical Religion is expected to be published
in its journal.


----- Original Message -----
From: chris mahl
Subject: Re: Emmet Fox's secretary and Al S.


I believe his name was Al Speckman.

I will dig out the reference and send it along.

Since his mother was Emmet's secretary, Bill,
Ebby, Al and others would get mezzanine seats
and listen to many of Emmet's talks here in the
city.

I am often amazed at how many of the paragraphs
in the Big Book so closely emulate turns and
phrases of Emmet's.

I'll send along another note with more specifics.

Best from NYC.

Chris M.

On 12/31/06, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> The wikipedia article on Emmet Fox
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmet_Fox
> contains the following sentence:
>
> "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the
> men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous
> co-founder Bill Wilson, and partly as a result
> of this connection early AA groups often went
> to hear Fox."
>
> If this statement is correct, can anyone in
> our web group give me this man's name?
>
> Glenn Chesnut, South Bend

0 -1 0 0
4002 robin_foote
Just for Today: Australian version Just for Today: Australian version 1/5/2007 8:28:00 PM

Hi Guys,
This is the text of the Australian Just For Today
Card. This is published by AA Australia and is
available at all if not most meetings.

I've been sober for two decades and can remember
it being around for ever.

Robin F.
Sunshine Coast, Queensland
'Perfect one day, ideal the next'.
_____

JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this
day only and not tackle my whole life's problems
at once. I can do something for twelve hours
that would appall me if I felt that I had to
keep it up for a lifetime.

JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to
be true what Abraham Lincoln said, "that most
folks are as happy as they make up their minds
to be".

JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and
not try to adjust everything to my own desires.
I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself
to it.

JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind.
I will study. I will learn something useful.
I will not be a mental loafer. I will read
something that requires mental effort and
concentration.

JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three
ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not
get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will
not count. I will do at least two things I do
not want to do - just for exercise. I will not
show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they
may be hurt, but today I will not show it.

JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look
as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low,
act courteously, criticise not one bit, not
find fault with anything and not try to improve
or regulate anybody except myself.

JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may
not be able to follow it exactly, but I will
have it. I will save myself from two pests;
hurry and indecision.

JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour
all by myself, and relax. During this half
hour, some time, I will try to get a better
perspective of my life.

JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially
I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful,
and to believe that as I give to the world, so
the world will give to me.


Published in Australia by the National Office
of Alcoholics Anonymous, Australia

0 -1 0 0
4003 Doug B.
Re: Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. Emmet Fox''s secretary and Al S. 1/7/2007 2:59:00 PM

My mother-in-law used to attend many of Emmet
Fox's talks in New York in the 30's and 40's.
She said she would see Bill W. at many of them
and that Bill always had a group of men with him.

When I asked her if there was anything about
Bill's group that she remembered, like fidgeting,
coughing, smoking, talking...etc? She replied
that the only thing that stood out, besides the
fact that they all stayed close together, was
that they were always "very well dressed".

Doug B.

0 -1 0 0
4004 Arkie Koehl
Re: Patron saints of alcoholism Patron saints of alcoholism 1/5/2007 4:40:00 PM

Also beloved among office workers and laborers
in Mexico is San Lunes (Saint Monday), whose day
is regularly observed by weekend bingers unable
to show up :-)

Arkie Koehl
Honolulu

On Jan 4, 2007, at 11:22, acorelis wrote:

> Here in Mexico there is a tongue in cheek retablo
> to the Patron Saint of AA: San Expedido (pedido
> is slang for drunk).
>
> It comes complete with tiny beer bottles under
> a circle with a slash through it ... quite a
> charming piece of folk art.

0 -1 0 0
4005 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Was there an early Grapevine editor from Cleveland? Was there an early Grapevine editor from Cleveland? 1/6/2007 7:37:00 AM

I think I remember reading that there was an
early editor of the Grapevine who came to us
from Cleveland, and that his name was Tom X.
or Tom Y. And that he also wrote our preamble.

Was he one of the Tom's mentioned in "Pass It
On"?

Can anybody tell me more about him?

Kilroy W.
4021 Club
Philadelphia PA

0 -1 0 0
4006 mchugh1652
Map for Akron tour Map for Akron tour 1/6/2007 8:04:00 AM

I finally found the internet page with a map of
the historic sites on it. You can see it here
and print it out:

http://akronaa.org/Archives/map/map.html

As others have pointed out a guided tour is
much better. Enjoy. Peter

0 -1 0 0
4007 Glenn Chesnut
Pink cloud and Pink Seven Pink cloud and Pink Seven 1/10/2007 3:13:00 PM

From: Rdeneve670@cs.com
(Rdeneve670 at cs.com)

My name is Linda and I am an alcoholic, by the
Grace of God sober 14 years.

I am trying to find where the pink cloud is
referenced, probably before the printing of the
big book, would it be? Because it is just in
little quote marks in the Big Book, as though
they were referencing some other material.

What does it mean? What is 'the pink seven'
and is that still the same topic or a different
one?

- - -

From the moderator:

I checked in the two online concordances to the
Big Book which I use:

http://www.royy.com/concord.html
http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/

The only place I could find the word pink used
is in the famous and well known passage on
p. 304 in the fourth edition of the Big Book
(p. 348 in the third edition), in the story
"Physician Heal Thyself!"

The author was trying to get sober by reading
and studying books ALONE, partly because he was
a highly educated surgeon and did not think
that the ordinary everyday people at the AA
meetings (the butchers and bakers and carpenters)
had anything to teach him. But they were
spiritual books that he was reading, he said
to himself, so that meant that he was working
the program. And HE was an intellectual, and
MUCH smarter than all these ordinary people
in the program.

(Lord help us, we ALL think we're smarter than
everybody else in the meeting room when we
first come in!)

He said that, for a while, "I was way up on a
pink cloud which is known as Pink Seven," but
that he eventually started to feel miserable
again, and started yearning to go back out
and start drinking again in spite of all his
reading.

I don't see any quotation marks around the
phrase, so I'm not sure what you mean by that
part of your question. But I still think you're
talking about the same passage I'm looking at.
Maybe you saw it reprinted in an intergroup
bulletin where somebody put quotation marks
around it.

At any rate, the message in this story was that
the author didn't start getting a genuinely good
new life in the program until he started ALSO
paying attention to what the ordinary everyday
people at the meetings had to teach him about
leading a good life, and until he started actually
working the twelve steps, and putting what he
was learning into action in simple little everyday
changes in his behavior (such as the way he acted
about washing the dishes at home and that kind
of thing).

- - -

In American slang back then, when you said that
someone was "on a pink cloud," you meant that
the person was in a state of temporary artificial
euphoria. Being "on a pink cloud" meant that you
had turned off all of your critical faculties
and were temporarily living in this marvelous
fantasy world where nothing ever went wrong or
could go wrong.

If you went out on a date with some guy, and
came back feeling all romantic and starry eyed,
and convinced that you had found "Mr. Wonderful,"
one of your friends might laugh and say, "well,
you're on a pink cloud now, but wait and see
what the guy looks like after a month or two
of going out with him on a steady basis. Wait
and find out how much you end up seeing him
after football season starts in a couple of
weeks!"

Being "on a pink cloud" meant that you were
living in a dream world, as opposed to living
in the real, everyday world.

It is easy to work ourselves up into a temporary
"pink cloud" by reading spiritual books that
talk about loving all humanity, or "feeling one
with the all," or loving Jesus, or by standing
around reciting the responsibility pledge with
our eyes all starry. And there are people who
try to work the AA program by hyping themselves
up in that way, without doing a single thing to
change their basic character, or to change their
ways of actually behaving in everyday life.

CHANGED BY GRACE is the mark of true twelve step
spiritual progress. Real "life changing" as the
Oxford Group put it. We have to start working
on using the power of grace (freely given to us
for our use) to heal all of our character defects.

These are the character defects which make us
angry all the time, have us attacking other people
all the time and trying to bully other people
into doing things our way, criticizing everybody
else in the program and starting arguments all
the time, refusing to help out on washing dishes,
moving chairs and tables, shoveling snow, going
to the grocery store to get milk or a loaf of
bread. When we begin real spiritual growth, we
start to heal these character defects, and then we
start actually treating other people differently
in all phases of our ordinary everyday life.

I've seen people spend years trying to artificially
hype themselves up onto a pink cloud by reading
the Bible (or the Torah or the Koran), talking all
the time about Jesus (or Moses or Mohammed or
Buddha), or reciting the Four Absolutes with
pious looks on their faces. The message of this
story in the Big Book was that these things are
NOT good things to do, if the only reason why we
are doing them, is to artificially put ourselves
into a temporary "pink cloud" euphoria.

Or to put it all in five simple words,
"faith without works is dead."

- - -

In ancient and medieval spirituality, when someone
had a spiritual experience, it was believed that
the soul had been transported up to one of the seven
crystal spheres which they believed surrounded
the planet earth. Each of these seven crystal
spheres was called a "heaven."

So somebody who had had a really ecstatic spiritual
experience would say that "my soul was transported
up to the seventh heaven," this being the best
and most vivid kind of spiritual experience.

In this passage in the Big Book, the writer is
jokingly combining the two ideas and saying,
in effect, "I wasn't just up on a pink cloud,
I was up on the highest and most euphoric
kind of pink cloud: Pink Seven!!!!"

- - -

On the seven heavens, see for example the last
part of Dante's Divine Comedy, the part called
the Paradiso, where his soul climbs up level
by level until he has arrived at the seventh
heaven (presided over by St. Bernard, the great
medieval mystic), and he is granted a brief
overpowering vision of the divine Love and
Light which illumines and moves the entire
universe:

l’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle

(the Love which moves the sun and all the
other stars)

But you see, Dante's vision is the right kind
of spiritual experience. That is because he paid
his dues first! He had first journeyed through
his own personal inner hell in the Inferno (the
first section of the Divine Comedy) and had
learned that, surprisingly enough, God did not
make any human soul stay in hell. All the souls
in hell are allowed to leave the moment that
they want to. The only requirement is that they
admit that they were wrong! As long as they keep
on giving alibis and excuses for their behavior,
and blaming it on other people, they will never
get out of hell.

And then Dante had some more dues that he had
to pay. In the middle part of the Divine Comedy,
he had to climb the mountain of Purgatory,
which he envisaged as a seven step recovery
program, based on healing the character defects
described by the Seven Deadly Sins.

(The Mountain of Purgatory means "the Cleansing
Mountain," from the Latin word purgo which
means to clean, cleanse, wash off, purify.)

Only after he had done the spiritual work which
was necessary in order to heal his Anger, Pride,
Envy, and so on, could he begin rising up through
the Seven Heavens and arrive at the kind of
authentic spiritual experience that he describes
at the end.

- - -

What the little story in the Big Book is doing,
is warning us that we can fool ourselves into
believing that spiritual experience is gained by
artificially hyping ourselves into "pious"
emotional states, and singing hymns about how much
we love Jesus (or Moses or Buddha or Mohammed),
and talking all the time about how spiritual
we are (in order to pridefully impress other
people). The most we can get that way is
artificial "pink cloud" spirituality.

It is easy to get on a pink cloud by going to
church for an hour on Sunday morning (or
synagogue or a Buddhist temple), where I can
get into an artificial emotional state, using
the stained glass windows and pious music.
But there are 168 hours in a week. It is in
the other 167 hours that I need to learn how
to start changing my behavior, where there
are no stained glass windows and no solemn
organ music playing in the background.

Twelve step meetings force us to learn how
to develop a spirituality which will work
when there are no stained glass windows and
no organ music and no chanting of beloved
religious texts going on in the background:
when the kids are screaming, the boss is
criticizing my work, and the other people
in the AA committee which is setting up the
picnic aren't acting like I want them to act!

And real spiritual experience can only be
gained by FIRST journeying down into the
hellish regions of our own minds and ferreting
out all the anger and selfishness and self pity
and fear, and taking responsibility for doing
something about these character defects, and
THEN by putting these new insights into action
by changing the way we live every aspect of
our daily lives.

When I first learn how to help out with washing
the dishes, when I first learn how to stop bullying
other people and starting up quarrels and arguments
all the time, when I learn how to stop attacking
other people and putting them down all the time,
when I learn how to start treating everyone around
me (without exception) with the kind of real human
respect with which I would wish to be treated,
then and only then will I become fit someday
(perhaps if God is willing) to ascend to the
seventh heaven and obtain the vision of the true
divine Light and Love which illumines and moves
the entire universe.

"Pink Seven" isn't real. That's me using my own
fantasies to create an artificial and temporary
illusion.

The numinous reality of the divine Light and Love
and Glory spreading through all the world IS real.
But I have to CHANGE ME to obtain that.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

- - -

P.S. USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION ON THE MESSAGE BOARD

If you go the Message section of
the AAHistoryLovers at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

there is a box at the top where you can search
through all the past messages for particular
words or phrases.

If you put quotation marks around a set of words,
it will search for those words in that order.

A lot of the standard questions have already been
asked in past years, so it can save a lot of time
if a search is done first, to see if the question
may already have been answered.

So I'm trying to encourage people to use the
search function, so they can get a quick answer
(when one is already available) instead of having
to wait around for several days.

In this case though, when I did a search for
"pink cloud" and "pink seven," the messages that
were posted gave part of the explanation, but
not all of it, so I'm filling in a few of the
missing gaps in my response to your question.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4008 funen99
Just for Today: Irish Version Just for Today: Irish Version 1/7/2007 4:37:00 AM

I had a look today at the Irish "Just For Today"
Card, which is approved by the AA General Service
Conference in Ireland and noted on the back page
"re-printed by Kind Permission AA GSO, GB".

Fiona

JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this
day only and not tackle my whole life problem
at once. I can do something for twelve hours
that would appall me if I felt that I had to
keep it up for a lifetime.

JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. Most
folks are as happy as they make up their minds
to be.

JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and
not try to adjust everything to my own desires.
I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself
to it.

JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind.
I will study. I will learn something useful.
I will not be a mental loafer. I will read
something that requires mental effort and
concentration.

JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three
ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not
get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will
not count. I will do at least two things I do
not want to do - just for exercise. I will not
show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they
may be hurt, but today I will not show it.

JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look
as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low,
act courteously, criticise not one bit, not
find fault with anything and not try to improve
or regulate anybody except myself.

JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may
not be able to follow it exactly, but I will
have it. I will save myself from two pests;
hurry and indecision.

JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour
all by myself, and relax. During this half
hour, some time, I will try to get a better
perspective of my life.

JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially
I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful,
and to believe that as I give to the world, so
the world will give to me.

0 -1 0 0
4009 vvpeachy@aol.com
Legal to reprint Just for Today: Australian version? Legal to reprint Just for Today: Australian version? 1/8/2007 11:25:00 PM

Is this copyrighted?

Or may another Intergroup Office produce these
and sell for cost without any legal infringement?

South Jersey Ginger

We've been asked about these cards lots -
especially Philadelphia's green card. The
green card has been requested because our office
is right across the Bridge.

Our Literature Committee is interested in
producing, but not interested in any legal
confusion.

Thank You for ALL of your input!


Lots of Love & Laughter,
Ginger F. & Ron B.

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply.
Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
_____

In a message dated 1/6/2007 4:02:02 PM Eastern
Standard Time, gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au
writes:

Hi Guys,
This is the text of the Australian Just For
Today Card. This is published by AA Australia
and is available at all if not most meetings.

I've been sober for two decades and can remember
it being around for ever.

Robin F.
Sunshine Coast, Queensland
'Perfect one day, ideal the next'.
_____

JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this
day only and not tackle my whole life's problems
at once. I can do something for twelve hours
that would appall me if I felt that I had to
keep it up for a lifetime.

JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to
be true what Abraham Lincoln said, "that most
folks are as happy as they make up their minds
to be".

JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust to what is, and
not try to adjust everything to my own desires.
I will take my 'luck' as it comes and fit myself
to it.

JUST FOR TODAY 1 will try to strengthen my mind.
I will study. I will learn something useful.
I will not be a mental loafer. I will read
something that requires mental effort and
concentration.

JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three
ways. I will do somebody a good turn and not
get found out. If anybody knows of it, it will
not count. I will do at least two things I do
not want to do - just for exercise. I will not
show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they
may be hurt, but today I will not show it.

JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable, will look
as well as I can, dress becomingly, talk low,
act courteously, criticise not one bit, not
find fault with anything and not try to improve
or regulate anybody except myself.

JUST FOR TODAY I will have a programme - I may
not be able to follow it exactly, but I will
have it. I will save myself from two pests;
hurry and indecision.

JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour
all by myself, and relax. During this half
hour, some time, I will try to get a better
perspective of my life.

JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid, especially
I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful,
and to believe that as I give to the world, so
the world will give to me.


Published in Australia by the National Office
of Alcoholics Anonymous, Australia

0 -1 0 0
4010 sbanker914@aol.com
Recordings of Emmet Fox speaking? Recordings of Emmet Fox speaking? 1/9/2007 7:04:00 AM

Does anyone know if any of Emmet Fox's talks in
New York City were recorded and if they are
available somewhere?

Susan
NYC

- - -

dougb@aahistory.com writes:

My mother-in-law used to attend many of Emmet
Fox's talks in New York in the 30's and 40's.

0 -1 0 0
4011 James Blair
Re: Pink cloud and Pink Seven Pink cloud and Pink Seven 1/10/2007 5:39:00 PM

The AA Grapevine published an article by Dr.
Harry Tiebout in September 1955 titled The Pink
Cloud and After.

In the first few years of AA's existance it was
a fairly coomon occurance to see a person take
a one or two-year cake and then get drunk. The
Fellowship was so concerned that it asked Dr.
Tiebout to investigate this phenomena.

What he found (and the article deals with) is
the fact that people with any lenght of sobriety
in the early days were not in abundance so the
person who achieved a year or two was "special"
and some them came to believe that they were
"special" too. Some got drunk.

Once it became common to have people with some
time, the phenomena stopped.

Tiebout refered to this as the "Pink Cloud."

Jim

0 -1 0 0
4012 spebsqsa@att.net
Re: Legal to reprint Just for Today? Legal to reprint Just for Today? 1/10/2007 11:04:00 PM

There are literally hundreds of web sites with
the "Just for Today" poem. Some include nice
artwork. Most say "Author Unknown" if anything.
A few attribute it to Sibyl F. Partridge, probably
a song lyric with Blanche Ebert Seaver. (Someone
else can verify that.)

I'm not a lawyer and I don't even play one
at meetings but I'd say nobody is going to come
after you for being the 500th person to print
a card with that well-known poem on it.

NOTE: I did find one site which apparently
has the song as an audio file but it refused
to play it for me because it is, "Not available
in the United States and Canada due to possible
copyright restrictions."

- - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

The AlAnon Just for Today bookmark is
copyrighted.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

- - -

From Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Sometimes the copyright applies only to the
typesetting and artwork on that particular
copy. Where if you reset the type, it's O.K.,
but if you photocopy it and start selling the
photocopies you're infringing on their
copyright.

For AlAnon to copyright the text itself, they
would have to show that they either wrote
the text, or purchased the copyright from
the person who actually wrote it.

So the question is, not who has put out a copy
with the words "copyrighted" on it, but who
originally wrote it, and what the chain of
ownership is, if any?

And once something has shown up on hundreds
of websites and cards sold in bookstores
with nobody complaining, it will be considered
as having fallen over into the public domain,
and anybody will be able to use it who wants
to.

(The earliest edition of A Course on Miracles
fell into the public domain, I think for that
reason among others, and anybody can reprint
that edition now, or post it on the internet.)

The Just For Today card sounds to me like it's
already turned into public domain, but you'd
need to check with a good copyright and
patent attorney to make sure.

0 -1 0 0
4013 vvpeachy@aol.com
Re: Legal to reprint Just for Today? Legal to reprint Just for Today? 1/10/2007 7:29:00 PM

Thank you so much for the input.

I will bring this to my Intergroup Literature
Committee and allow the committee system to
prevail.

I know our IG doesn't have sufficient money to
hire a patent attorney. I'm sure that we can
move a word or two to prevent it from being
exact.

ALL further suggestions are gladly accepted.

Thanks again!

South Jersey Ginger

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Lots of Love & Laughter. Live simply. Love
generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
Leave the rest to God.

0 -1 0 0
4014 Baileygc23@aol.com
Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA 1/11/2007 3:21:00 AM

I have been given to believe that on Jan. 5,
1939, Dr. Bob told Ruth Hock in a letter that
AA has "to get away from the Oxford Group
atmosphere."

Can anyone in the group tell me where I
could find a copy of this letter?

I understand that the basic issue was
created by the Protestant/Catholic problems
that existed at that time. The Oxford
Group was a Protestantant evangelical
movement, which meant that some Roman
Catholic priests were telling the
alcoholics among their parishioners that
if they joined an Oxford-Group-linked
AA group, they would be committing a
mortal sin, would be excommunicated and
barred from the sacraments of the Roman
Catholic Church, and would be condemned to
hell in the world to come.

George

0 -1 0 0
4015 robin_foote
Australian Just for Today Card LEGAL ISSUES Australian Just for Today Card LEGAL ISSUES 1/11/2007 7:37:00 AM

Hi Guys and sober greetings,

Ginger F. & Ron B. asked if this card may be
copyright protected. I have no idea about
copyright of the Australian 'Just for Today'
card for reprinting purposes. I'll leave that
up to the legal eagles, the Australian National
Service Office and World Service Office - and
maybe even Al-anon.

I have included the contact details for
Australia below as well as the liturature
catalogue reference.

Regards
Robin F.
Sunshine Coast, Australia.
Near the Great Barrier Reef - home of Nimo.
_____

08S-04
Just for Today Card
AU $0.25

National Office AA (GSO)

National Office of AA in Australia
48 Firth St, Arncliffe NSW 2205

Phone (02) 9599 8866
Fax (02) 9599 8844
E-mail: national.office@aa.org.au
Website: www.aa.org.au

0 -1 0 0
4016 Bill Lash
AA Groups & Membership (Spring 1971) AA Groups & Membership (Spring 1971) 1/14/2007 8:38:00 AM

Groups and Members

Spring 1971 (from the April 1971 General
Service Conference)

United States: 9,541 Groups, 167,167 Members,
146 Lone Members

Canada: 1,667 Groups, 25,957 Members, 51
Lone Members

In Hospitals: 767 Groups, 18,604 Members

In Prisons: 925 Groups, 32,481 Members

Internationalists: 412 Members

Total Above: 12,900 Groups, 244,818 Members

Overseas (1970 count): 3,559 Groups, 66,632
Members

Totals: 16,459 Groups, 311,450 Members

(including non-reported members, actual
membership is estimated at more than 500,000
worldwide)

0 -1 0 0
4017 Glenn Chesnut
The two 1947 editions of The Little Red Book The two 1947 editions of The Little Red Book 1/14/2007 2:32:00 PM

From Tommy Hickcox in Baton Rouge
<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

SUMMARY

1946: first edition/printing of The Little Red
Book

1947: the one with the red cover seems to be
the second edition/printing

1947: the one with the maroon cover seems
to be the third edition/printing

[Moderator's note: Ed Webster refers to them
as "printings," but when substantial changes
are made in the text, which is what Ed was
doing at this stage, we normally refer to them
today as separate "editions."]

* * * * * *

The Little Red Book had two printings in the
year 1947 and there are differences between the
two volumes. Opinions have been offered which
of the volumes was printed first and which
second.

The covers, title and copyright pages are as
follows:

* * * * * *

One’s cover is distinctively red while the
other’s is a dull maroon.

- - -

The title page of the red volume has:

An Interpretation of
THE TWELVE STEPS
of the
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PROGRAM

- - -

While the maroon volume has:

An Interpretation of
Alcoholics Anonymous Program
of the
The Twelve Steps

- - -

The copyright pages are identical except the
red volume adds:

First Printing August, 1946
Second Printing January, 1947

* * * * * *

This would imply to me that the red volume was
the second printing.

Printing numbers were not published again
until much later.

It seemed to me one could make an educated guess
as to which came first by comparing text. If
there was a change in the text, did the change
carry over to the printings of 1948 and 1949
and assigned numbers four and five? Did one
volume have material in common with the 4th and
5th printings and not the other 1947 printing?

* * * * * *

A quick check of the first several pages gives
enough material to make an educated guess.

Author’s Note: red is one paragraph of 17
lines; maroon is three paragraphs of 29 lines;
4th/5th: 3 paragraphs of 23 lines but the
lines have more words in them. The wording
is identical to the maroon.

p. 9; para 4, sent 1: red-The new comer often
. . .; maroon-The newcomer too often . . .;
4th/5th-The newcomer too often . . .

p. 10; para 3; last sentence of maroon has
* to footnote: Note paragraph 2, page 44, in
the book, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS”; red does
not have the footnote. 4th and 5th have the
footnote.

p.11; para 2, sent 1: red: The alcoholics who
have recovered through the Alcoholics Anonymous
movement . . .; maroon: The alcoholics who
have recovered through the Alcoholics Anonymous
Fellowship . . .; 4th/5th: Fellowship

* * * * * *

There is a list of reasons for failures in the
A.A. program starting at the bottom of p. 11.
Red has 9 reasons listed and maroon has 10.
The first seven reasons are exactly the same,
but the rest differ:

Red 8. Those who have not been harmed sufficiently
by alcohol often fail because drinking is not a
matter of life and death with them. This group
generally involves the men and women with
relatively short alcoholic histories.

Maroon 8. Those who see in alcoholism a moral
problem rather than an illness.

Red 9. Those who accept only a part of the
Twelve-Step Program, who will not try to live
it in its entirety. Those who wish to put a
distorted selfish interpretation on all of the
steps for purposes of their own convenience.

Maroon 9. Those with relatively short alcoholic
histories, to whom drinking is more an
inconvenience than a matter of life or death.

Maroon 10. [There is no Red 10.] Those who
accept only a part of the Twelve-Step Program,
who will not try to live it in its entirety.
Those who wish to put a distorted selfish
interpretation on all of the steps for purposes
of their own convenience. Note-This is the
same as Red 9.

4th/5th: 4th the same as maroon. 5th adds
another reason.

p. 13, para 1: Red has alcoholism as a disease
and Maroon as an illness. 4th/5th have illness.

p. 13, para 2, last sentence: Maroon adds to
the end of the sentence--have faith--keep open
minded, and adds the footnote- *Read page 50
in the book, “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS” 4th/5th
have the addition.

I did not proceed farther with this analysis as
I thought there was enough evidence to consider
the red volume to be the second printing and the
maroon volume to be the third printing as the
changes the maroon volume has were carried on
to later printings.

I unfortunately do not have a first printing.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4018 Joseph Trevaskis
Photo of Peabody Photo of Peabody 1/14/2007 6:59:00 AM

Hi all,

Does anyone have or know where I can get a photo
of Richard Rodgers Peabody?

I've been working on a project of putting together
photos of those who influenced AA's beginnings.

Thanks.

In Love & Service,

Joe

- - -

Moderator's note:

Peabody was the author of "The Common Sense of
Drinking" (Boston: Little, Brown and Co., 1930,
1931).

There is an Adobe Acrobat PDF version of the
book available online at:

http://www.aabibliography.com/pdffiles/CommonSenseDrinkPeabody.pdf

0 -1 0 0
4019 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA Dr Bob''s letter to Ruth Hock on Oxford group and AA 1/11/2007 12:46:00 PM

If a letter was sent to Ruth Hock, it would be
on file in the GSO Archives in New York.

YIS
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

REMEMBER:
11th National Archives Workshop
Sept.6-9 in Phoenix,Az

0 -1 0 0
4020 leeannplatner
We The People Radio program 1939 We The People Radio program 1939 1/11/2007 8:59:00 PM

We are searching for an episode of WE THE PEOPLE
radio program from April 1939 featuring Gabrielle
Heatter with guest, Morgan R and his discussion
of AA.

We produced the program, and have a transcript,
but we do not have a copy of the audio recording
and the holdings we donated to the Library of
Congress do not include this episode. We would
love to borrow and/or pay to have a dub made if
any member has an actual copy of this recording.


Please contact me if you have or know where we
can find this recording.

Please call or contact me at

LeeAnn.platner@nbcuni.com
(LeeAnn.platner at nbcuni.com)

Thank you so much!

LeeAnn Platner
Director, Clip Licensing
NBC Studios and Bravo TV
100 Universal City Plaza
Building 4250 3rd Floor
Universal City, CA 91608
818-777-5147 Phone
818-866-2574 Fax

0 -1 0 0
4021 Glenn Chesnut
The early printings of The Little Red Book The early printings of The Little Red Book 1/14/2007 6:31:00 PM

I think I have gotten this right now, at
http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html, where I have
tried to lay out the sequence of printings of
The Little Red Book from 1946 to 1949.

The question of whether there were two print
runs in 1949 is based on information from Jack H.
in Scottsdale, Arizona, but unfortunately the
accuracy of my statement about these two print
runs depends on how good my memory was of what
Jack told me. I have worded it now as follows:
_______________________________

The first printing appeared in 1946, two separate
printings were done in 1947, there was another
printing in 1948, and Jack H. says that there
were actually two in 1949. Ed Webster kept on
making changes in the book during that period,
and in fact kept on making changes in the book
all the way to the end of his life in 1971.

Tommy H. (Baton Rouge, Louisiana) had made a
study of the two 1947 printings in Message 4017
in the AAHistoryLovers, see
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4017

He established that the one with the distinctively
red cover has to be the earlier of the two 1947
printings. It says that it came out in January
1947. The other 1947 printing, which has a dull
maroon cover, must have appeared later in that
year. This later printing embodies a number of
textual changes which were carried over to the
fourth and fifth printings.

My statement above that there were two 1949
printings is based on a telephone conversation
which I had with Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona.
If my memory serves me correctly, Jack told me
that the only difference between the two was
that the first printing had a minor typesetting
error (a segment of text inserted upside down
or something of that sort) and was recalled as
soon as this was discovered, so that not many
copies of the first printing actually got out.
But I have not verified this with my own eyes.
Jack had Ed Webster's papers, and may have found
this out from correspondence between Ed and the
printer. Let us however not quote my statement
that there were two 1949 printings as gospel
truth, until someone can find a copy of a faulty
version of the 1949 printing and corroborate this.
I am having to remember a long ago telephone
conversation, and my memory of what Jack actually
said could be faulty.

And Tommy H. in Baton Rouge says that the 1950
edition says that it was the sixth printing,
the 1951 edition says that it was the seventh
printing, and so on. So if there were two print
runs made in 1949 as Jack H. says, it also seems
clear that Ed Webster did not regard these two
print runs as separate "printings" or "editions"
in the full sense.

- - - - - -

So perhaps the best way of putting this would
be to list the editions as follows:

1st edition August 1946

2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)

3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)

4th edition 1948

5th edition 1949 (?? which may have had two print
runs with a typesetting error in the first print
run ??)

6th edition 1950

7th edition 1951 (and so on)

- - - - - -

Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should be
taken as a kind of benchmark version for many
purposes, since this was the last edition where
Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.

And we should remember that changes made in
The Little Red Book after Ed Webster's death
on June 3, 1971, which are numerous, were done
by editors at the Hazelden Foundation who
believed that they "could write better" about
alcoholism than Ed Webster.

The current Hazelden version is not bad, and
is perfectly usable for newcomers to the A.A.
program, but I have not found any rewordings
which they made which were an improvement in any
way at all, and the idea of rewriting a classic
text without warning the reader about it in a
footnote is something which no responsible
publisher ever does. You don't rewrite Shakespeare
or Hemingway or Faulkner or Mark Twain when you
publish new editions.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4022 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell 1/19/2007 1:44:00 PM

Shakey Mike here,

I recently purchased a book from Dr Bob's library
that has his signature in it(full name) that
belonged to his daughter, who was at that time (1951)
Mrs E. W. Gailbraith, 26 W. York Street, Akron 10, Oh.

Dr. Bob signed his name as R H Smith
855 Ardmore Ave. Akron 1943.

This book is the only book in the Kay Stewart
Collection that is signed by Dr. Bob. It was
given by Sue to Kay Stewart who was involved in
the beginnings of the Dr. Bob house.

Is there any more history of how Dr. Bob's house
came to be?

Any more on Kay Miller other than an old post
on AAHL?

Any info on Oscar Futral who is the first Akron
man to carry the message behind the walls?

The newly posted collection is available to see at
http://abookman.com/aacatalog.htm

It shows alot of early Akron AA memorabelia.

Other than Dr Bob's Big Book at GSO Archives and
his books at Dr Bob's house and Akron Intergroup,
are there many other Dr. Bob signatures out
there?

If you want a copy of that inscription from his
book please e-mail me at:

Shakey1aa@aol.com
(Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennysylvania
____________________________________

Mike,

He signed a copy of the first edition of The
Little Red Book which Ed Webster had sent him,
before passing it on to someone else.

See http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html

It ended up in Jack H.'s collection
(Scottsdale, Arizona).

Glenn Chesnut

0 -1 0 0
4023 dobbo101
Joe and Charlie workshops Joe and Charlie workshops 1/17/2007 5:46:00 PM

Can anyone tell me if the Big Book workshops
that Joe and Charlie once ran are still going
on.

How would one contact them?

I'm in the UK and would love to go to one.

My e-mail address is:

dobbo101@yahoo.com
(dobbo101 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4024 Glenn Chesnut
Later history of the Oxford Group Later history of the Oxford Group 1/22/2007 12:33:00 PM

There is a nice little summary of the later
history of the Oxford Group at:

http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/index.php?sn=2,2#top

Could AA have in fact remained linked to the
Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of
the OG and the way they were evolving? In AA,
we tend to focus only on the parts of the Oxford
Group that we are interested in, and ignore
other things that were essential parts of the
movement.

A true assessment of the nature of the Oxford
Group in the 1930's however has to make sense
out of where the movement has ended up in 2007.
Otherwise we are falsifying our picture of
the Oxford Group which Bill W. and Dr. Bob
had joined.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1908 Frank Buchman

Buchman, an American Lutheran minister of Swiss
descent who was the originator of Initiatives
of Change, has a spiritual experience of release
from bitterness in crucial relationships that
alters the course of his life.

1927 The Oxford Group

Buchman's experience in 1908 convinces him that
moral compromise destroys human character and
relationships and that moral clarity is a
prerequisite for building a just society. His
ideas take root at Oxford and in some American
universities and his work becomes known as the
'Oxford Group'.

1935 Alcoholics Anonymous

Buchman's ideas spread through the 1930s into
many sectors and on to other continents.
Alcoholics Anonymous is established in 1935
as a direct result of the liberating experiences
which some people find through their contact
with the Oxford Group.

1938 NAME CHANGE: Moral Re-Armament

As European nations re-arm for war, Buchman
calls for 'moral and spiritual re-armament' as
the way to build a 'hate-free, fear-free,
greed-free world'. Following World War II,
Moral Re-Armament (MRA), as it becomes known,
launches a program of moral and spiritual
reconstruction to foster change in private and
public life based on a change in motivation
and character. Buchman also emphasised the
importance of faith. He believed that God has
a purpose for people's lives and for mankind
as a whole, and he encouraged people to seek
God's wisdom in regular times of silence and
reflection. Buchman, a devout Christian,
described Moral Re-Armament as 'the good road
of an ideology inspired by God upon which all
can unite. Catholic, Jew and Protestant, Hindu,
Muslim, Buddhist and Confucianist - all find
they can change, where needed and travel
along this good road together.'

1946 Caux, Switzerland

MRA opens an international conference center
in Caux, Switzerland, which is made possible
through the generosity and hard work of hundreds
of Swiss citizens.

1947 Germans to Caux

At a time when any contact with the Germans is
extremely difficult, Buchman and his colleagues
invite Germans to Caux. Over the next four years
growing number of Germans and French come to
Caux and their encounters become the basis of
a massive development in reconciliation. Buchman
is later decorated by both the German and French
governments for his contribution to European
reconciliation.

1949 Reconciliation

Conferences at Caux and similar ones at
Mackinac Island in the US, achieve further
public recognition through several other major
contributions to international developments in
the post-war years. Notably the part played in
the reconciliation of Japan with her South-East
Asian neighbors, and in the achievement of
independence by several African countries
without major bloodshed.

1950 MRA Expands

By the 1950s, casts of plays presenting MRA's
ideas are traveling all over the world. Centers
are established in Latin America, India, Japan
and several countries in Africa.

1961 Buchman Dies

When Buchman dies in 1961, the former British
political journalist Peter Howard assumes the
leadership of MRA, but four years later he too
dies. Without a clearly identified leadership
to ensure cohesion, unresolved differences among
those taking responsibility begins to surface.

1965 Up With People

In some countries a new approach is tried,
concentrating on the younger generation, and
in others more traditional ways continue. Up
With People, which develops into a global
educational program, becomes a spin-off from
MRA. After a period of uncertainty and
dissension, trust is slowly re-established,
with valuable lessons learned.

1968 Asia Plateau

1968 sees the opening of Asia Plateau - a major
international center for the training of people
from industry, education and other national
sectors in Panchgani, India.

1970s Period of Consolidation

With reconciliation a primary need in many parts
of the world, much of MRA's work concentrates on
supporting peace-making initiatives in Africa
and Asia.

1980s Britain

During this period in Britain some of the work
is focused on bettering industrial relations at
the big car and steel manufacturing plants,
important at that time for economic stability,
and some on the growing multiculturalism of
the country's large cities.

1990s Collapse of Communism

The collapse of Communism triggers new needs
and opportunities for the rebuilding of democracy
in the post-Soviet world. This becomes one of
the major focal points in the 90s.

1990s New Initiatives

Other initiatives that develop throughout the
90s are Hope in the Cities, which is created
to bridge the racial divide in the US; Clean
Election Campaigns in Taiwan, Brazil and Kenya;
and a continuing concern for the creation of
moral and spiritual infrastructure for development
in both rich and poorer nations.

2001 Name Change: INITIATIVES OF CHANGE

With the approach of the new millennium, there
is world-wide recognition that the words 'moral
re-armament' no longer hold the same resonance
as they did in 1938. In 2001 the new name
Initiatives of Change (IofC) is announced to
the world's media by the Caux President, Dr.
Cornelio Sommaruga (former President of the
international Red Cross), and Professor
Rajmohan Gandhi, grandson of the Mahatma.

2006 Today

While ways of expressing truth, and methods
of coordinating the global work, continue to
change as succeeding generations take on this
particular responsibility for the moral and
spiritual renewal of society, the essential
philosophy of IofC remains the same - that
personal change can lead to social, economic
and political change. With its emphasis on
experience rather than philosophy, it provides
a focus where people of different religious
and political persuasions can meet without
compromising their own beliefs, and be part
of a global network committed to working for
change in the world.

0 -1 0 0
4025 CBBB164@AOL.COM
Re: Joe and Charlie workshops Joe and Charlie workshops 1/20/2007 2:39:00 PM

No they are not. Joe McQ has become the victim
of Parkinson's disease and was replaced by Joe McC.

Charlie P. recently had a hip replacement and Joe
McC. has had a number of serious health problems.

In God's love and service,

Cliff Bishop
http://www.ppgaadallas.org

- - - - - -

From: Ollie Olorenshaw
ollie_olorenshaw@yahoo.com.au
(ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au)

As far as I am aware Joe and Charlie are no
longer conducting workshops but recordings of
past workshops are available from various places.
Here is one.

www.12steptapes.com

and another

www.xa-speakers.org

best wishes

Ollie

0 -1 0 0
4026 Dan
Old AA meeting in Palos Park Illinois Old AA meeting in Palos Park Illinois 1/21/2007 9:21:00 PM

I belong to a very old AA group and am trying
to figure out how old it is, and any other
information on this group that has been meeting
since at least 1940.

The group is now called the Top of the Hill
Group and meets on Monday nights off Southwest
Highway [Route 7].

Thanx in kind and service

dan babs

0 -1 0 0
4027 Robt Woodson
Re: Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell Dr. Bob''s Signature, Kay Miller, Oscar Futrell 1/21/2007 12:51:00 PM

Mike,

You may want to be looking into the story of
Wesley Parrish (Florida) who spearheaded the
movement to purchase and make Dr. Bob's Home
available to all of us, also, two folks around
today that you should interview are Akron
Intergroup's Archivist Gail L. and Don C.,
current Chairman of the Board at Dr. Bob's
House, they were both involved early on, and
should have some very interesting stories to tell.
I imagine that you know Ray G. too, Dr. Bob's
House's Archivist, a lot of materials and
wonderful photographs ar available there.

Dr. Bob's daughter Sue stayed at the York St.
address until the end of her life.

Kay Stewart (Grand Dame of Akron's Flame
Breakfast Group) was active until the end of
her life, serving as a Vice-Chairman on the
Board of the Akron Intergroup Council in her
last years and speaking at the Intergroup's
Anniversary Dinner just before her passing.

Her accomplishments were considerable and I am
sure that her story (and probably that lead) is
available on tape (try contacting the Akron
Intergroup Archives...they are working now to
put together "Voices from the Past" to be
utilized in conjunction with the Archives page
at the AkronAA.org. website and they have an
aggressive program going to digitize remaining
materials for back up use while the originals
are preserved.

Oscar Futrell was the first man in Alcoholics
Annonymous that I ever met...in the Summit
County Jail in 1971...he was quite candid...
I distictly remember him telling me "I believe
that you are an Alcoholic... this program will
save your life...If you don't want what we've
got then go die damn you!!!"

For a long time I never trusted Oscar, whenever
I saw him he was either in a uniform or a suit...
(that same check Jacket in which he apperars in
so many photographs...even at Dr. Bob's graveside
monument with Bill W.) I trust Oscar today...
that is what I have come to understand...

Oscar was sponsored by Dr. Bob and was a great
friend of Bill Wilson..I've been told it was
Oscar that Drove Bill around on his visits to
Akron.

What he "tried" to carry to me was the straight
message of Alcoholic's Annonymous although I
did not understand that then, Guess I was
more interesterd in the doughnuts (glazed),
the "ready-made" cigarettes available at the
meeting and the packs of Bugler Tobacco you
could get if you asked for it...to take back
to the range.

I think the most important thing was perhaps
the fact that going to the meeting allowed me
to communicate with the other inmates from the
different floors of the jail...yes communication
was the great thing then and subtly? I began
to get the message.

This is hearsay, but my Sponsor (who was for many
years the Chairman of the Founders Foundation)
explained to me that at the end of his life
Sgt. Oscar Futrell suffered from alzheimers,
or something similar, and that it was very
difficult and sad when people tried to take
him to meetings.

If you want to contact me directly I will do
what I can to help you....

Be a good guy and keep you powder dry,

Woody in Akron

0 -1 0 0
4029 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House 1/22/2007 2:05:00 PM

Getting feedback about Dr Bob and some amusing
anecdotes about Him, Kay and Oscar. Does anyone
know more about Wesley putting up his own money
to buy Dr.Bob's House and how he was paid back?
This man needs to be given the credit he deserves
if what I am hearing is true.

Having fun in AA,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

See you in Phoenix Sept.6-9 for the
11th Nat'l Archives Workshop



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4030 frescacan
Mustard Seed Group - Chicago Mustard Seed Group - Chicago 1/22/2007 8:19:00 PM

Does anyone know the address of the first Mustard
Seed Group location?

I know it was in a basement apartment, near Astor
and Division, in Chicago, but I'm really curious
about the exact address.

Thanks.

0 -1 0 0
4031 remcuster@aol.com
Re: Mustard Seed Group - Chicago Mustard Seed Group - Chicago 1/22/2007 4:48:00 PM

Have you checked with the Chicago Area Service
Office @ 312/346-1475 ??

The Area Code may have changed to 773, (it's
been a long time since I've been in touch with
them).

Hank Groat
Piney Flats, TN.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4032 Glenn Chesnut
Frieda M-M Frieda M-M 1/22/2007 10:43:00 PM

From: "Fiona Dodd" <fionadodd@eircom.net>
(fionadodd at eircom.net)

I received the following communiqué from the
Archivist of the Avon South Intergroup on the
passing of Frieda M-M.

On a personal note, the Archivist's parents
were stationed in Washington D.C. during 1941.
(Her brother was born in the Bethesda Military
Hospital two days before Pearl Harbour) There
was a lot of entertaining and inspiration
offered by the British Ambassador and her mother
used to tell of the parties held at the Embassy.
When her mother herself got sober in Alcoholics
Anonymous in Bath in the Eighties, which was
not long before her mother died in 1992, it was
realised that John and Frieda who were Butler
and Housekeeper to the British Ambassador in
Washington would have undoubtedly served her
parents their drinks on many occasions! It was
there that the seeds of her mother's alcoholism
were sown and it was in the Bath group which
John started in 1955 that her mother got sober
twenty-five years later!

John M. served as the first sponsor to Travers
of Bristol until his death in 1964.

Fiona
_ _ _ _ _ _

Frieda M-M

R.I.P.
_ _ _ _ _ _

Only today did the news come of the passing of
Frieda M-M who died on 17th December, 2005.

Frieda was John M's wife and aided all his
efforts to establish Alcoholics Anonymous in
the West Country when they left their employment
with His Excellency the British Ambassador in
Washington and returned to England in 1947 with
his redundancy pay of £100 to seek employment
and carry THIS message. In 1948 John held the
first meeting known in the West Country at
Mickleton, Glos.

John did obtain employment and worked diligently
and in 1955 helped open the Bath Group, along
with Frank HS, Teddy and Joe G (Croydon).

Travers of Bristol (1959) used to describe the
meeting in the front parlour of Frieda's
hairdressing salon being conducted amongst the
old fashioned driers. He also used to tell
of John and Freida's kindness to him in his
own early days.

After hearing much about Al-Anon taking shape
in Canada and the United States, in 1955
Frieda began Al-Anon in Bath (believed to
be the first Al-Anon meeting in England).

John died the day after returning from the
National Convention at Clacton in 1964. Frieda
eventually returned to her native Berne,
Switzerland and while already not young she
began Al-Anon in that city. There was a report
to the Intergroup in the mid-Nineties about an
interview held with Frieda during a visit she
made to her nephews and nieces in the West
Country. She was a most energetitc and charming
lady and kept in close touch over the years with
the editors of the journal, 'Bristol Fashion'.

Her life story is in the Archives. What an
amazing lady, travelling all over the world,
married to John and founding Al-Anon in more
than one country! She would have been a 100
years of age, if not more, when she died!
Surely, she was the last of our founding
members.

The Archivist, Avon South Intergroup, Bristol.

0 -1 0 0
4033 Mike B.
Re:Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House 1/23/2007 10:21:00 AM

<<Does anyone know more about Wesley putting up
his own money to buy Dr.Bob's House and how he
was paid back? >>

I have a letter from Wesley that I received in
July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the
Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed
himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included
a copy of his Concordance, which I have used
many, many times over the years. He was quite
a good member of Alcoholics Anonymous. There was
also a drawing for a 1st edition, 1st printing
of the Big Book as a fund raiser.

Mike Barns




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4034 Diz Titcher
Re: Re:Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House Wesley Parrish and Dr Bob''s House 1/23/2007 2:56:00 PM

Any questions about Wesley can be addressed to
John W. as he is Wesley's oldest sponsee:

JWill60366@aol.com
JWill60366 at aol.com

0 -1 0 0
4035 Sherry C. Hartsell
RE: Wesley Parrish and Dr. Bob''s House Wesley Parrish and Dr. Bob''s House 1/23/2007 2:54:00 PM

I had letters re this deal from Wesley P., he
& old Sherry shared a podium or so back in the
late '70s-80s. Nice fellow, well known here
in Texas and respected as a good member and
speaker, though best known for his efforts with
BB studies; we visited a lot in Colorado and
New Orleans during those Internationals, he
visited in Dallas a few times and we'd talk.

sherry

0 -1 0 0
4036 Bob McK.
Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House 1/26/2007 10:27:00 AM

My background is in archives, not history, and
that makes life easier for us so involved because
we do not have to furnish opinions. A lot of
people were involved in the purchase and
restoration of Dr. Bob's. Indeed anyone who
has ever made a contribution to them (even me,
though a small one) can take credit for this.

What should not be overlooked is the original
sales agreement was signed by Gail La C., the
current Akron AA Archivist, on October 5th, 1984.
Her rear end was on the line for many thousands
of dollars at that point and, while she had
promises that she would not have to come up
with (all of) the money, there are few of us
that would have the courage (and the credit
rating?) to make that big a commitment. Her
contribution should neither be forgotten nor
minimized.

0 -1 0 0
4037 gcb900
Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group 1/25/2007 10:03:00 AM

AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W.
as part of its history. There is also an
important letter where Jung gives his opinion
of the Oxford Group which I believe should be
included among the materials on the AA History
Lovers website, as what others think of AA and
its freedoms is important.


"The group confessions of sects like the Oxford
[Group] Movement are well known; also the cures
at Lourdes, which would be unthinkable without
an admiring public. Groups bring about not only
astonishing cures but equally astonishing
psychic changes and conversions precisely because
suggestibility is heightened ....

"But in view of the notorious tendencies of
people to lean on others and cling to various
-isms instead of finding security and
independence in themselves, which is the prime
requisite, there is danger that the individual
will equate the group with father and mother
and so remain just as dependent, insecure and
infantile as before ....

For what we are dealing with is only the passing
and morally weakening effects of suggestion
(that is why medical psychotherapists, with
few exceptions, have long since abandoned the
use of suggestion therapy).

C. G. Jung, letter to Hans A. Illing,
January 26, 195570

0 -1 0 0
4038 garylock7008
Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 1/24/2007 3:06:00 PM

I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking -
Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter
2006 about the final resting place of Bertha
Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend.

The author of the article - William W., from
New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried
in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents.

[See photo on page three.]

As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill
Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue
of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am
preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA
meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of
that issue Bill discribes his great depression
following Bertha's death, in fact he writes:

"I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard
where the girl was buried, sitting there for
hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly
collapsed."

I wonder if someone could clarify for me how
Bill could leave his school in Manchester,
Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours
in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

Gary

0 -1 0 0
4039 Glenn Chesnut
AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/26/2007 3:03:00 PM

A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes,
"Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of
Texas Press, 2002.

(AA historians should certainly be doing
more work on Spanish-speaking AA, because
Latin America accounts for one third of AA's
membership worldwide.)

John Blair <jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)
sent me the following article about Brandes'
research:

From the Berkeley campus of
the University of California:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html

UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's
rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous

30 April 2002

By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations

Berkeley - When University of California,
Berkeley, anthropologist Stanley Brandes was
invited by his Mexico City shoeshine man to
join him at a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous,
the longtime scholar of Spain and Latin America
was a bit surprised, but he immediately agreed.

After attending that first meeting, Brandes
returned for hundreds more over the course of
several years as he launched a detailed
ethnographic study of one AA group among the
thousands flourishing in Mexico and Latin
America. The stories of the men in that group
are told in the just-published, "Staying Sober
in Mexico City" (University of Texas Press).

Latin America is calculated to account for
one-third of AA's membership worldwide, and
El Salvador is said to have the highest AA
membership per capita of any nation. Throughout
Mexico, about 90 percent of AA's members are
male.

Brandes said he was intensely curious to learn
how AA, which in the United States is generally
associated with Protestant faiths and a middle-
class clientele striving to maintain sobriety,
proliferates in a Mexican culture characterized
by ardent Catholicism, poverty and often a
hard-drinking machismo. What he learned, Brandes
said, may add to the understanding of 12-step
groups, in general, and of Latino participation
in such groups.

The first Alcoholics Anonymous groups in Mexico
began in the 1940s with English-speaking,
"gringo" residents of the country. Some 16
years later, records show that the organization
had just three Spanish-speaking AA groups in
that country.

Current estimates, however, indicate that,
today, Mexico City counts more than 1,500 AA
groups and about 300,000 members. In a Mexican
village of 3,000 people where Brandes has long
done anthropological fieldwork, there are at
least two regular AA meeting groups.

Although Alcoholics Anonymous is the subject
of hundreds of books and extensive research,
"Staying Sober" is different because it takes
a single AA group as its subject and deals not
only with the members' ideology, but how AA
works for them through social relationships
and group dynamics.

"I am less interested in therapeutic outcomes
than in the fate of the group itself: in
questions of leadership, social control, and
the identity of individuals as members of the
group," Brandes wrote.

With men comprising the majority of the AA
membership in Mexico and its capital, he said,
an interesting thing happens in the group
meetings as participants redefine what it means
to be a man in Mexico City. (Working-class women
in Mexico are more likely to join Neurotics
Anonymous or Al-Anon, a group for family members
of alcoholics, Brandes said).

"A lot of what goes on in the bars goes on in
the meeting rooms," Brandes said, recalling
meetings of the AA group he called "Moral
Support," where he repeatedly heard men brag
about sexual exploits and misbehavior.

Brandes noted in his book that, although AA is not
allied with any religion, it is often associated
with Protestant faiths because of the religion
of its founders, its somewhat Puritanical focus
on abstinence from drinking, and a linkage of
its 12-step program with a multitude of Biblical
references. Yet, he said, Mexican AA members
have managed to infuse much of the typical
meeting and group structure with popular Catholic
symbolism and form.

One way, Brandes said, is the use of the AA
member's telling of personal stories in a way
similar to Catholic confessionals. Another is
the use of alcohol-free fiestas to celebrate
sobriety anniversaries to mimic the typical
merriment of Catholic celebrations for baptisms,
confirmations, marriages and other events.

Also, Brandes found that the use of "sponsors"
to guide newer AA members has been co-opted by
the Mexicans as the equivalent of religious
godparents, or "padrinos."

"The Moral Support meeting room is certainly not
a church," Brandes wrote. "But, in a number of
ways, it replicates the kind of sacred space
that would be familiar to any Mexican Catholic.
The chairs are arranged, as in any church, in
congregational fashion. The podium functions
as a kind of altar...Sacred texts hanging on the
meeting room walls add to the overall religious
imagery."

So, Brandes said, "To join AA in working-class
Mexico City does not mean abandoning one's
religious tradition. It means adapting it to
the circumstances at hand."

He theorizes that the growth of AA membership
in Mexico is due, in part, to more villagers
heading to urban centers in search of work.
Among these migrants, many workers with drinking
problems turn to Alcoholics Anonymous groups as
substitutes for the familiar, small communities
they lost when they left rural villages or to
replace their drinking buddies.

Surprisingly, AA in Mexico City is anything
but anonymous, and no one seems to mind, Brandes
found. The small storefront meetings he attended
were interrupted by small children racing in
to chase dogs or retrieve balls, and neighbors
looking for each other. Members routinely keep
the meeting entrance open, and passersby can
easily overhear what is said inside, Brandes
said.

This open identification of AA members is
probably the most dramatic difference between
the organization in Mexico and the United
States, he said.

While Brandes still is uncertain about the
effectiveness of AA, he said he did become
"a true Triple A, or Admirer of Alcoholics
Anonymous," in that he held every one of the
members of his group in high esteem and
developed affection for them.

Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, co-director of the
Harvard (University) Immigration Project,
praised "Staying Sober in Mexico City." He
said it likely will become not only the
standard reference on the cultural study of
alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the
best overall social science contributions to
the study of Mexican culture in the last
50 years."

Brandes, a social cultural anthropologist, has
spent more than 30 years in the study of Latin
American and European ethnography, writing
about peasant society and culture, folklore,
symbolism, ritual and religion, as well as
food and drink.

Brandes' future projects will include a study
of Latino AA or 12-step groups in the United
States, as he assesses the impact of migration
on drinking patterns and treatment strategies.
Brandes also is engaged in a long-term study
of the Day of the Dead.

###

0 -1 0 0
4040 hesofine2day
First Black Woman In AA? First Black Woman In AA? 1/24/2007 5:13:00 PM

Does anyone know the identity of the first
black woman in AA?

0 -1 0 0
4041 David Johnson
Re: Later history of the Oxford Group Later history of the Oxford Group 1/23/2007 6:12:00 PM

You write:

> Could AA have in fact remained linked to the
> Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of
> the OG and the way they were evolving?

Evidently Clarence S. felt not ... citing specific
reasons to Dr.Bob (as presented in Mitchell K.'s
"How It Worked) pp.136-141. Then there's "AA
The Story," by Kurtz, pp 45-57, which go into
some detail the myriad reasons why AA naturally
and inevitably separated from the Oxford Group
in order to even proclaim "a primary purpose,"
let alone anonymity, attraction rather than
promotion, no opinion on outside matters, no
outside affiliation, and a God of our own
understanding.

I would also say before we get into a "true
assessment" of the Oxford group-even as it went
through its various permutations, we would do
well to first of all understand the biases of
the Oxford Group, as dominated by Buchman, during
this period of time in the 30's and 40's.

For example: From "What is the Oxford Group,"
1933, P. 6:"Their aim is A New World Order for
Christ, the King," and "The Oxford Group works
within churches of all denominations, planning
to bring those outside back into their folds
and to re-awaken those within to their
responsibilities as Christians."

Then there's their strategy of trying to bring
the "movers and shakers" into the fold so that
"money, property and prestige" might serve to
influence the masses more quickly.

Then there's the Oxford Group's take on
homosexuality: "There are many who wear suede
shoes who are not homosexual, but in Europe
and America the majority of homosexuals do.
They favor green as a color in clothes and
decorations. Men are given to an excessive
display and use of the handkerchief. They tend
to let the hair grow long, use scent and are
frequently affected in speech, mincing in gait
and feminine in mannerisms. They are often very
gifted in the arts. They tend to exhibitionism.
They can be cruel and vindictive, for sadism
usually has a homosexual root. They are often
given to moods....There is an unnecessary
touching of hands, arms and shoulders. In the
homosexual the elbow grip is a well-known sign.
Of course, they were condemned.
(See Remaking Men, Paul Campbell, M.D. and
Peter Howard, 1954, pages 60-62.)

Probably the most famous of the Buchman
utterances:

"On returning from Europe, Frank Buchman, Oxford
group revivalist, is quoted by a reputable New
York paper as having said: "I thank heaven for
a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front-line
defense against the anti-Christ of communism....
My barber in London told me Hitler saved all
Europe from communism. That's how he felt. Of
course I don't condone everything the Nazis do.
Antisemitism? Bad, naturally. I suppose Hitler
sees a Karl Marx in every Jew. But think what
it would mean to the world if Hitler surrendered
to the control of God. Or Mussolini. Or any
dictator. Through such a man God could control
a nation overnight and solve every last
bewildering problem."

"In this interview the social philosophy of the
Oxford group, long implicit in its strategy,
is made explicit, and revealed in all its
childishness and viciousness. This philosophy
has been implicit in Buchmanite strategy from
the beginning. It explains the particular
attention which is paid by Mr. Buchman and his
followers to big men, leaders, in industry and
politics. The idea is that if the man of power
can be converted, God will be able to control
a larger area of human life through his power
than if a little man were converted. This is
the logic which has filled the Buchmanites
with touching solicitude for the souls of such
men as Henry Ford or Harvey Firestone and
prompted them to whisper confidentially from
time to time that these men were on the very
threshold of the kingdom of God. It is this
strategy which prompts or justifies the first-
class travel of all the Oxford teams. They hope
to make contact with big men in the luxurious
first-class quarters of ocean liners."

Excerpted from "Christianity and Power Politics"
by Reinhold Niebuhr, the eminent theologian who
is associated with The Serenity Prayer. This
appears to be a word-for-word reprint of
Niebuhr's criticism of Buchman that first
appeared in The Christian Century magazine,
October 7, 1936, pages 1315 and 1316.

Isolated thought? Not really. Here's another:
"... Human problems aren't economic. They're
moral and they can't be solved by immoral measures.
They could be solved within a God-controlled
democracy, or perhaps I should say a theocracy,
and they could be solved through a God-controlled
Fascist dictatorship."

Initiatives of Change, the Oxford group's latest
reincarnation, seems admirably multi-cultural
and focused on the the interpersonal and what
each of us can do to make the world a better
place. In addition, there are stories where
such changes have taken place with some idea
of how they've occurred. It seems that the
insistence upon change from the "top down"
and Jesus Christ as the only way have been
dropped. More power to them.

0 -1 0 0
4042 Cheryl F
Wesley P''s concordance Wesley P''s concordance 1/23/2007 4:02:00 PM

Does any one know where I can get a complete
concordance like the one referred to below?

Cheryl Fitzsimmons
http://my2.tupperware.com/CherylFitz

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007
To: AA History Lovers
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Wesley Parrish
and Dr Bob's House

I have a letter from Wesley that I received in
July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the
Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed
himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included
a copy of his Concordance, which I have used
many, many times over the years.

Mike Barns

0 -1 0 0
4043 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House Gail LaC. and Dr Bob''s House 1/26/2007 6:53:00 PM

In reference to the post by bobnotgod and his
statement that Gail L. signed for the mortgage
in 1984, I doubt that it was Gail L. of Akron
Archives. I've met her several times and I'm
sure she would have been a teenager in 1984 and
unable to sign a mortgage. (Aren't I a diplomat!)

Perhaps another AAHL can shed some more light
on that.

I have a copy of the Extensions newsletter
from the Founders Foundation dated Jan. 1988
that says “The Home is Now Ours." It has a
picture of a ceremonial mortgage burning with
Don C., Kurt S., Kay S., Mel B., K-C S., Ron S.,
and Joe G. The article states, “The home is
now ours! The Mortgage Has Been Paid."

In the newsletter entitled Founders Foundation
News the Articles of Incorporation are listed
and show Sue S. Windows, Kay S., and Joseph G.
as the initial trustees. It is dated Jan. 14,
1985. Was the house paid off in 3 years?

In reference to trying to find out more about
Wesley P, Kay and Oscar -- I received many
e-mails -- thank you to Sherry, Old Bill, Don B
(who will be a speaker at the next Founder's Day
on Saturday afternoon), Tommy H., Woody of
Akron and Diz T. Diz referred me to the next
best thing than the horses' mouth; he sent me to
his sponcee John W. and he has sent me the
following which he has allowed me to share with
you.

Dear Mike,

Wes was upset when he heard the news that Dr.
Bob's home was in bad shape and was in danger
of being bulldozed to make room for a parking
lot. The mortgage that existed at that time was
rather small as I remember but Wes felt that
interested members of AA should participate in
the purchase and it should be done outside of AA.
He was in Pompano but he had plenty of support
in Akron and he was asked to be the "point" man
and raise the funds to pay off the mortgage. He
took on the assignment and Wes had a lot of
friends whose wealth had increased because of
sobriety and Wes asked for contributions and
of course they responded.

He also conducted a raffle of a first edition
Big Book with Bill Wilson's and Ebby Thatcher's
signature on the inside covers. The tickets
were sold for $25.00 per chance and plenty were
sold. If you purchased a ticket, Wes would
send you back a concordance to the Big Book and
12x12 to acknowledge receipt of your purchase.
Wes died in November, 1985 and the drawing was
set for January, 1986. I had Wesley's widow,
Rena, draw the winning ticket and I presented
the book to Ray G. in St. Petersburg in February,
1986. I don't think Ray was ever the same after
that as he and his wife have become archivist
for Dr. Bob's home.

Charlie P. from Maysville, AR became the chief fund
raiser after that and has been successful at
getting a principal of close to $500.00 so that
the interest is divided each year between Dr.
Bob's home and Bill's birthplace in East Dorset,
VT.

Wes never purchased the mortgage although he
could have. He thought it better to have
interested members contribute so that it would
be a collective effort which seems to work
best with AA members. Wes was quite a salesman
and got the job started.

Kay and Wes were good buddies and all of that
committee worked very hard to achieve something
really great for the members of AA. Wes would
keep me posted as to the progress in our daily
conversations if anything significant occurred
in Akron. He was pleased with the progress
and on the evening of his death, according to
Rena, he had been on the phone to Akron before
he retired for the night and later died in
his sleep.

I understand his picture is displayed somewhere
in the home and as is with most of what Wes
stood for, he's just as happy to remain anonymous.
All of those involved know the part he played
and as the one who started the Founder's
Foundation, it goes on and the homes can never
be taken away.

As ever,
John W.

The original mortgage for the house was $38,000
according to the Founders Foundation news. The
lending institution was the First National Bank,
Akron, Ohio, and the rate was 1 1/2 % over the
prime interest rate. The down payment was 25% or
$9,500.00. It was a commercial loan and they
also had to pay 2 points ($570.00) plus closing
costs (~$500.00). The monthly payment was
$360.00 per month for 15 years plus taxes and
insurance. The law required 5 people to sign for
it and the committee thought the house would
cover any risk involved by those 5 people.
Tradition Six was not broken by the members
having a Foundation and as Kay said "Come home
often, it’s yours," "The Home of Dr. Bob is
yours," "God will do the impossible."

John also shared, "Wes started a big book study
on January 5, 1976, and that group has evolved
into the Wednesday Night Study Group in Pompano
Beach. Since I was there when it started and
was part of the group until I moved to
Tallahassee last summer, I know its history.
Wes was also responsible for getting the Big
Book Seminars and Studies off the ground. As
I was his pigeon, I saw this all unfold and
fortunately for me, Wes asked me to be part of
the program."

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

See Ya in Phoenix Sept.6-9 at the
11th National Archives Convention.

0 -1 0 0
4044 erb2b
Purchasing Dr Bobs House... Purchasing Dr Bobs House... 1/26/2007 5:09:00 PM

Greetings.... I have heard this story quite a
few times from my Grandsponsor( Alf S.) who
also contributed to the funds along with his
good friend Wesley P. in the house purchase
along with a few others.

He's still alive and in the nursing home. I see
him every so often he's 92 and still has some
stories to tell myself and others. He was a Panel
Delegate and came into the Oxford Group in 1934.

THX! Corey F.

0 -1 0 0
4045 Mel Barger
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 1/27/2007 9:29:00 AM

Hi Gary,
I was one of the authors of "Pass It On," so
I had the same question you posed here. I
concluded that Bertha's body was temporarily
stored in a vault before being taken to
Jeffersonville for a later service and burial.
It's also possible that she might have been
buried in Manchester and then exhumed and
reburied in Jeffersonville. I also understand
that winter burials are delayed in part of New
England because the ground is frozen over. I
think that was the case when Bill died in
January, but was not buried in East Dorset
until spring.

Incidentally, I asked a good friend in
Louisville, Paul L., to make a search for
Bertha's grave back in 1980. He was a very
capable man and made a diligent search, but
couldn't find it. So we have to give William
W. high marks for this successful search.
We should also thank Amy Filliatreau, the
new archivist, for getting the photo. She
was visiting in Louisville and went over and
snapped it on her own.

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4046 johnpublico
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 1/27/2007 10:32:00 AM

Gary,

Bertha died on November 19th, 1912 at the Flower
Hospital in New York City. Her death certificate
indicates she died during surgery to remove a
sarcoma of the right kidney.

She was interred at Walnut Ridge Cemetery in
Jeffersonville, Indiana (across the river from
Louisville, KY) on November 28, 1912.

Robert Thomsen, in his book "Bill W", indicates
that Bertha's body laid in an above-ground crypt
(the earth too frozen for burial) at the Factory
Point Cemetery (in Dorsett, VT) that winter. But
this seens unlikely since only 9 days separated
her death in Manhattan and burial in Indiana.

Bill's account makes for an impelling story.
I take it as only that.

John K.

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Please read pg. 36 in Pass It On. She was buried
in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

yis
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

- - - -

From: "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

"I wonder if someone could clarify for me
how Bill could leave his school in Manchester,
Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours
in Jeffersonville, Indiana."

The same way that many other so-called "facts"
are presented in AA literature -- it sounds
better than the truth. (Or ... there are lots
of other women by that same name in the world.)

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "garylock7008"
<garylock7008@...> wrote:
>
> I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking -
> Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter
> 2006 about the final resting place of Bertha
> Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend.
>
> The author of the article - William W., from
> New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried
> in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents.
>
> [See photo on page three.]
>
> As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill
> Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue
> of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am
> preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA
> meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of
> that issue Bill discribes his great depression
> following Bertha's death, in fact he writes:
>
> "I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard
> where the girl was buried, sitting there for
> hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly
> collapsed."
>
> I wonder if someone could clarify for me how
> Bill could leave his school in Manchester,
> Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours
> in Jeffersonville, Indiana.
>
> Gary
>

0 -1 0 0
4047 Maria Swora
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/27/2007 8:12:00 AM

I reviewed this book for American Ethnologist.
It's an online review:

http://www.aaanet.org/aes/bkreviews/result_details.cfm?bk_id=632

It's a really good book.

Maria

Maria G. Swora, Ph.D. MPH
Department of Sociology
Benedictine College
Atchison, Kansas 66002

- - - -

Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes,
"Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of
Texas Press, 2002.

John Blair <jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)
sent me the following article about Brandes'
research:

From the Berkeley campus of
the University of California:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html

UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's
rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous

30 April 2002

By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations
________________________________________

The full text of Kathleen Maclay's article
is given in AAHistoryLovers Message 4039:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4039
________________________________________

0 -1 0 0
4048 Tom White
Could AA and the OG have stayed together? Could AA and the OG have stayed together? 1/27/2007 4:10:00 PM

Dear Glenn:

I was much stimulated by your first question
below to think about whether or not AA and the
OG might have stuck together. I think not,
because each was, from fairly early times, on
a quite clearly different track to the future.
My remarks here are based on much reading
about AA, and about the OG and its successor
organizations, and on considerable personal
knowledge of AA and its history. But in the
end I am writing here essentially just my own
impressions and theories. The hypothetical
question as to whether the two groups could
have stuck together is really unanswerable
because what happened is that they did not,
and real history, real events, are irreversible.
One can't step in the same river twice.

First, look at the leaders. Buchman and Wilson
both had extraordinary spiritual experiences
of the transformative type so well described in
James's "Varieties of Religious Experience"
and Bucke's "Cosmic Consciousness." Both men
came out of their brief but intense illuminations
with completely changed characters. Both became
strong, magnetic leaders, originators of world-
changing movements. Neither had been that
before the experiences, although they were
both thought highly talented in various ways.
It was perhaps inevitable that two such "large"
men would bump heads when it finally came to
a showdown over their ideas.

But having cited some equivalencies, I now
suggest some strong differences:

Buchman (1878-1961) was Bill's (1895-1970) senior
by 17 years; he was one year older than Dr. Bob.
Buchman's spiritual experience in 1908, when he
was 30, antedated Bill's in 1934 (when Bill was 38)
by 26 years. Buchman was established as a leader
with an international group in existence when
"the alcoholic squad," led by Bill and Dr. Bob
formed itself in Akron under OG auspices in
late 1935.

AA ideas would not come together and be presented
to the public for several more years; the Big
Book ("Alcoholics Anonymous") was published in
1939. But AA's "Big Book," was more completely
an action program, and a more detailed one than
the OG ever printed, despite the immense amount
of often excellent OG literature that was created
over many years. Of course AA's Big Book was
based largely on Oxford Group principles, but
already somewhat modified to fit the AA
circumstance.

Both groups depended, to begin with, on one-on-one
personal contacts more than on anything written
to accomplish their goals. In the matter of
movement goals, of course, is where major
differences arose. Buchman aimed at all men
(meant in the sense of all men and women); Bill
and Dr. Bob (mostly, as far as the public was
concerned Bill's silent partner) soon realized
—- as early as their months together in Akron
in the summer of '35 —- that they were out after
only their fellow alcoholics. I seem to recall
reading that Buchman disapproved of such
"specialism" and told the alkies that, perhaps
through Sam Shoemaker.

Buchman and the OG generally operated on the
theory that if they could change "leaders" and
otherwise important people ("key people" in
their expression), the mass of people would
ultimately tend to change with them. There is
no reason to say they were essentially wrong.
Protestantism advanced because some German
princes took it up, and their people followed
them. My impression has been that all through
their changes of name and policies and
locations, this emphasis by the OG on "changing
leaders first" has stayed constant. As has the
emphasis on publishing their successes on the
world stage, so that their movement might
grow and make beneficial changes in the lives
of many everywhere, and not unimportantly,
lead to significant donations to the OG work.
The OG published and reiterated its successes
among the prestigious and powerful to the point
of turning off many; I expect Bill and Bob were
among those turned off by this extravagance.
Even when AA collected some "celebrities" there
was no desire by AA to capitalize on their
attachment; some early "anonymity-breakers"
among that population were thought actually
harmful to the fellowship.

One can perhaps put it this way: Buchman's traits
included an extravagance of language when making
claims for his OG (and later MRA); he was often
accused of being extravagant in his style of
living -— expensive clothing, "posh" hotels,
luxurious traveling. He, in fact, owned very
little personal property, so there was a
principled side to his methods; his expenses were
for his work. His style was rather derivative
of Philadelphia, a city of great wealth and even
elegance, under the English Quakers and Protestant
Germans who settled in Pennsylvania. Whereas
Bill and Bob for all their education and urban
sophistication retained through their lives a
kind of "Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter" outlook
that disliked ostentation, bragging, and
extravagance, without, I think, their ever
being cheapskates.

Bill and AA ultimately went in quite an opposite
direction from the OG organizationally: personal
anonymity, meaning there would be no publicity
sought for big-name adherents of their cause,
no money sought from anyone not an alcoholic,
no expensive buildings and "centers," none of
the trappings of institutional wealth for any
aspect of AA itself, however the individual
members might disport themselves.

But perhaps the biggest difference between the
two groups and their founding leaders was in
their handling of the twin problems of leadership
(that "L" word again) and succession that beset
every social movement.

Buchman stayed in charge of the OG/MRA until his
death in 1961. He had delegated Peter Howard,
an Englishman, as his successor. Howard died
unexpectedly in Lima, Peru, in 1965. (I have run
across at least one writer who thinks Howard
was murdered. He did not say who, supposing the
suspicion were correct, might have done it, or
why.) Howard's death precipitated a leadership
crisis in MRA, which was ultimately solved by
the movement's heavyweights (a board of directors
or trustees presumably) which instituted a change
of policies. These in turn have led, whether or
not deliberately I do not know, to the essential
disappearance of the organization from the U.S.
and Britain, and developments towards the East
(India) and South (Africa) from their long-time
European HQ at Caux, Switzerland. A name change
to Initiates of Change occurred along the way.

Bill Wilson's solution to the leadership-succession
problem seems, by contrast, extraordinarily
successful —- so far. Way back in the 1940s he
had complained in the Grapevine that he wished
he and Bob could "join AA." He was lamenting
their lionization and consequent isolation as
"founders." Surely Bob had no heart for
lionization at all; he firmly declined some
Akron AAs' proposal for a stately mausoleum for
him and Anne, and he told Bill he thought they
both should be buried "like other folks."

Bob spoke for the last time at the 1950
International Conference in Cleveland. By 1955
Bill had made his decision: he would foreclose
the founder/Big Shot role in AA for (he hoped)
all time. He stepped down as founder-leader at
the 1955 "Coming of Age" Conference at St. Louis
(marvelously reported on by him in "AA Comes
of Age") and "turned the movement over to the
members." He worked at getting a majority of
alcoholics on the GSO board of trustees and at
starting the annual GSO delegates meeting in
New York City every April, and, in the Third
(Service) Legacy, he accomplished two things of
major importance (among other things): (1) he,
as it were, wrote out of AA's permanent structure
any need for, or means to achieve, replacements
of himself and Bob; there would be no "designated
successor" to them as there had been to Buchman
in OG/MRA, and (2) he deposited all authority
and power in the individual AA Group; there
would be no rule "from the top," as in the
OG/MRA. The NYC HQ would be subservient to the
Delegates's conferences and ultimately only a
publishing, not a control, operation. This he
clearly hoped would squeak AA safely around the
bugaboo that assails all top-down organizations
like governments and churches, namely the rise
and steadily increasing empowerment of an HQ
bureaucracy.

As to that there is Mosca's Iron Law to keep in
mind, which runs to the effect that all
organizations (top-down rule assumed) end up
ultimately serving the people who run it rather
than the mission it was originally set up to
serve.

The Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter master publicist,
lawyer, speculator, magnetic leader, etc., etc.,
did his level best to protect AA from the
future's swollen egos, and even, as he said,
from himself; he lived 16 years past his
step-down as leader and never made any attempts,
so far as I know, to reassert himself as the
man in charge. It was quite a wondrous working,
a very rare case of selflessness.

- - - -

On Jan 22, 2007, at 11:33 AM, Glenn Chesnut wrote:

> There is a nice little summary of the later
> history of the Oxford Group at:
>
> http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/index.php?sn=2,2#top
>
> Could AA have in fact remained linked to the
> Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of
> the OG and the way they were evolving? In AA,
> we tend to focus only on the parts of the Oxford
> Group that we are interested in, and ignore
> other things that were essential parts of the
> movement.
>

0 -1 0 0
4049 Mitchell K.
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/27/2007 6:28:00 PM

I believe I met Stanley Brandes in 1997 at a seminar
held at Brown University in 1997. He was discussing
his work in Mexico at that time.

I wonder if the finished product included Seccion
Mexico which is a true Fellowship of the Spirit in
Mexico where they are living the Traditions and freely
carrying the message to all who seek recovery.

- - - - - -

Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes,
> "Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of
> Texas Press, 2002.
>
> John Blair <jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)
> sent me the following article about Brandes'
> research:
>
> From the Berkeley campus of
> the University of California:
>
>
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html
>
> UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's
> rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous
>
> 30 April 2002
>
> By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations

0 -1 0 0
4050 Angela Corelis
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/27/2007 7:30:00 PM

Hola,

I read that book review in 2002 and reacted in
horror at how misleading his perceptions were.
Trying to fit AA into preconceived ethnological/
anthropological parameters. His observations
may be true for the group he observed, but it
is misleading to say it applies to all AA in
Mexico.

My first 8 years of sobriety (sobriety date
Sept 6, 1986) were almost exclusively in Spanish
language meetings in the Mexican states of
Michoacan, Sinaloa, Nayarit and Jalisco,
including a national AA convention in Mexico
City.

My personal observations of these meetings are
not in agreement with his. (I have a degree
in Art History/Anthropology from UC Berkeley).
I had planned to order the book and see for
myself ... but that idea faded ... now will
do it...the reviewer may have made mistatements.

It is mileading what Marcelo Suarez-Orozco,
co-director of the Harvard (University)
Immigration Project, said when he praised
"Staying Sober in Mexico City." He said it
likely will become not only the standard
reference on the cultural study of
alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the
best overall social science contributions to
the study of Mexican culture in the last
50 years," with the study of one group.

It is similar to a non AA making a study of
an AA group in a small town in the US and
calling it "the standard reference on the
cultural study of alcoholism in the US."

Yes. Photos of Bill W and Dr. Bob often have
candles and flowers placed below them. I have
not noticed the Mexicans being any more boastful
than American men on their sexual prowess or
manliness. Guadalajara had six Women´s AA groups
in 1988, now who knows, I attended most of them.
Now living in Puerto Vallarta, I have attended
three different Mexican all Women AA groups.

I have had the opportunity to travel with Mexican
AA carrying the message to Isla Marias Penal
Colony 1,500 men and 53 women ... to work with
the women. Here, almost to a person, the
prisoners had been incarcerated for a crime
committed while drunk.

To Sierra Madre mountain villages outside of
Guadalajara ... 1/2 hour by twin engine plane
the 15 minutes. Here we helped form a new AA
group, they had been meeting for a years, but
were not a registered group. And did not
perceive the same things as Mr. Brandes.

Angela Corelis
Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco
Mexico

P.S. Just finished a presentation on AA History
in Mexico at the 5th Annual Sobriety Under the
Sun AA Conference in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico,
January 26, 27, 28, 2007.

I asked Fernando Q. (25 years sober) to present
the same talk he gave on that topic at the
International AA Convention in San Diego. Plus
invited local English speaking Mexican AA member
(4 years sober, but interviewed Pedrito the only
still living founder of Spanish language AA in
Vallarta) to present the history of Mexican AA
in Vallarta and Ray (30 years sobriety, visiting
Vallarta for 6 months each year since sober) to
present the history of English Language AA in
Vallarta.

0 -1 0 0
4051 teeper@comcast.net
Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 1/29/2007 11:28:00 AM

AAHL,

A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically
in either the Big Book or the 12&12 if the subject
of refraining from relationships (or any other
thing that might interfere with sobriety) for
the first year or so.

That's the general wisdom of my home group
and I've heard that advice given before, but
I don't know if it's ever been addressed in
any Conference-approved literature, or on this
site, for that matter.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Spiritus contra spiritum!
Terry P.

0 -1 0 0
4052 Barry Murtaugh
Twelve Steps and the Older Member Twelve Steps and the Older Member 1/30/2007 12:01:00 AM

Hi Folks,

Here on my desk is a paperback with a blue
coated stock cover with the numeral "12" in
gold on it, upper right corner.

Cover is glued to stapled text pages, 5 1/2"
x 7 1/8"

Inside is the title page:
"TWELVE STEPS and the older Member"

Publisher line is:
"Older Member Press,Box 25, Guilford, Conn"

Copyright page:
"Copyright 1964 by Older Member Press
First Serial rights granted A.A. Grapevine
1954 through 1963; all other rights retained
by copyright owner.
First Printing June, 1964.
Library of Congress catalog number:64-22572
Price Two Dollars"

Great lines from the intro:

"The newest newcomer is just as authentically
an explorer into the infinite as were Bill and
Bob when they founded AA on June 10,1935.
Nobody can take the Tweve Steps for anybody
else. Each individual who sets his foot on
the road suggested by the Steps finds himself
on his own endlessly challenging, sometime
perilous journey into undiscovered territory."

In Gratitude 12/24/06
Happy Christmas from Barrington, IL
Barry

Barry Murtaugh
CMLJBM@VOYAGER.NET

0 -1 0 0
4053 John Seibert
RE: Wesley P''s concordance Wesley P''s concordance 1/29/2007 8:32:00 AM

Cheryl,

I have a dictionary/concordance that is prooduced
by an outfit called the "Big Book Dictionary."
It was given me by a friend. Their web site is

http://www.bigbookdictionary.com

It is conveniently sized to fit inside the Big
Book and is current for the 4th edition - the
first 192 pages [through Dr Bob's Story].
Currently their price is $4.00 each and that
includes shipping.

In Love,

John S.

- - - -

From: "Bob S." <rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

Question: "Does any one know where I can get
a complete concordance like the one referred
to below?"

Answer:
A Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous
By Stephen and Frances E. Poe

Purple Salamander Press
1625 Heitman Court
Reno, NV 89509

This book is nearly 1000 pages - I have found
it very useful.

Bob S.

- - - -

From: "momaria33772" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

I'm not sure specifically which Concordance is
referred to here, however, my friend Ray G.,
the Dr. Bob's Home archivist,is a snow bird
here in Florida.

He has a few copies of the huge blue hardcover
available, this is written by Stephen Poe
printed by Purple Salamander press 1990.

0 -1 0 0
4054 corafinch
Re: Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group Carl Jung''s criticism of the Oxford Group 1/30/2007 8:24:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "gcb900"
<Baileygc23@...> wrote:
>
> AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W.
> as part of its history. There is also an
> important letter where Jung gives his opinion
> of the Oxford Group which I believe should be
> included among the materials on the AA History
> Lovers website, as what others think of AA and
> its freedoms is important.
>

Jung's thinking did go through some changes over
time, and he seems to have been a little more
positive, or at least less negative, about the
OG during the 1920s. In the "Collected Letters"
there is an early letter mentioning the Groups,
which was apparently written to a member of his
extended family or a close friend (I assume
this because he signed it "Carl" which he almost
never did). The person had already become
involved with the OG and Jung made the observation
that, for that particular person at least, Group
involvement was probably a good thing. The
recipient of the letter is not identified, and
the endorsement -- if endorsement is even the
right term -- is certainly tentative.

In the 1930s, Jung became critical or even
contemptuous of the Groups. The reason may have
been partially a personal one. A friend and
colleague, Alphonse Maeder, had become involved
with the Groups in the mid-20s. Maeder was one
of the few men in the analytic community with
whom Jung remained on good terms over a long
period of time, probably because Maeder had
an easy-going personality and more humility
than most people in the field.

The two of them eventually parted company,
primarily because Jung wanted Maeder to take
on the leadership of a professional organization
with Nazi connections. Maeder's excuse (purposely
lame?) was that he was devoting too much time
to the OG to take on anything else. This may
have contributed to Jung's disapproval of the
Group.

So the situation is as usual a little complicated.
Certainly Jung's distrust of "group think," the
psychology of crowds, was consistent thoughout
his career. So it is understandable that he
would have questioned the wisdom of joining an
organization like the Oxford Group.

Cora

0 -1 0 0
4055 mec569
re:Wesley P. Concordance Wesley P. Concordance 1/31/2007 8:50:00 PM

I have used the Hazelden index cost about 3.00 at my Central
Office/intergroup. I use a Concordance that include words in context
for the Twelve and Twelve and Big Book called "164 and More" compiled
and edited by Ralph T.

The website for it is excellent and is as follows:

http:\\www.164andMore.com

The book sells for 15.00 post-paid and has been a great resource for me
during book studies and the like. Yours in Service,
Brewster B.

0 -1 0 0
4056 t
Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 1/30/2007 3:33:00 PM

Try the 12&12 on page 119:

"A.A. has many single alcoholics who wish to
marry and are in a position to do so. Some
marry fellow A.A.'s. How do they come out? On
the whole these marriages are very good ones.
Their common suffering as drinkers, their
common interest in A.A. and spiritual things,
often enhance such unions. It is only where
'boy meets girl on A.A. campus,' and love
follows at first sight, that difficulties may
develop. The prospective partners need to be
solid A.A.'s and long enough acquainted to know
that their compatibility at spiritual, mental,
and emotional levels is a fact and not wishful
thinking. They need to be as sure as possible
that no deep-lying emotional handicap in either
will be likely to rise up under later pressures
to cripple them. The considerations are equally
true and important for the A.A.'s who marry
'outside' A.A. With clear understanding and
right, grown-up attitudes, very happy results
do follow."
__________________________________

---- a year might be rushing it! to achieve
that compatibility at spiritual, mental and
emotional levels ... rule out any deep lying
emotional handicaps... gain clear understanding
and right grown-up attitudes.


teeper@comcast.net wrote:

>AAHL,
>
> A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically
>in either the Big Book or the 12&12 if the subject
>of refraining from relationships (or any other
>thing that might interfere with sobriety) for
>the first year or so.
>
> That's the general wisdom of my home group
>and I've heard that advice given before, but
>I don't know if it's ever been addressed in
>any Conference-approved literature, or on this
>site, for that matter.
>
>

0 -1 0 0
4057 Mel Barger
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 1/30/2007 3:51:00 PM

Hi John,

Thanks for this additional information about
Bertha Bamford's death and burial.

Since Bill talked about mourning by her burial
place, I take it that he went out to the above-
ground vault several times before she was taken
to Jeffersonville. Bill had a tendency to
exaggerate certain facts (though not deliberately)
and I believe that this memory bcame somewhat
expanded as he recalled that dark period in his
life.

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

----- Original Message -----
From: johnpublico
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:32 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Bertha Bamford's grave in Indiana???


Gary,

Bertha died on November 19th, 1912 at the Flower
Hospital in New York City. Her death certificate
indicates she died during surgery to remove a
sarcoma of the right kidney.

She was interred at Walnut Ridge Cemetery in
Jeffersonville, Indiana (across the river from
Louisville, KY) on November 28, 1912.

Robert Thomsen, in his book "Bill W", indicates
that Bertha's body laid in an above-ground crypt
(the earth too frozen for burial) at the Factory
Point Cemetery (in Dorsett, VT) that winter. But
this seens unlikely since only 9 days separated
her death in Manhattan and burial in Indiana.

Bill's account makes for an impelling story.
I take it as only that.

John K.

0 -1 0 0
4058 Maria Swora
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 1/30/2007 4:14:00 PM

I never got the impression that Brandes believed
that his study of one AA group represented all
of AA in Mexico. I don't think one could write
any one work that would accurately depict as
diverse a group/community/fellowship as AA. But
there are some important core values that are
actively adapted by members to their local
contexts. I find his work valuable for two
reasons. First, the ethnographic (not
ethnological) study of one AA group provides
us with a wealth of rich comparative material.
If we disagree with it, more work needs to be
done - other groups, the same at a different
time, etc. That is how science works - through
a disciplinary community that is self-critical
and open to correction and growth. Second, I
though Brandes' analysis and description of
the articulation of that particular group in
that particular context, both local and cultural,
was very good. And it is about time that someone
recognized that gender affects men as well
as women.

One concern I have. I am a nonalcoholic who
carried out an ethnographic study of AA in one
city, and wrote a dissertation about it. I
broadened by material with speaker tapes from
all over the United States, but I never claimed
that I produced a comprehensive study of AA. I
do think I did a good job, even though I'd be
the first to admit I can't claim to "grok" what
it is like to be an alcoholic, sober or not.
However, I've been told by a few AA members
that I have no right or business to try to
understand the fellowship and its program
because I am not a member. I disagree. That's
like telling an anthropologist that he/she can't
do an ethnographic study of another society or
cultural group because he/she is not a native.

Maria S., Friend of Friends of Bill

0 -1 0 0
4059 Robt Woodson
Re: AA in Mexico City AA in Mexico City 2/1/2007 10:07:00 AM

Hola Amigo's

Thanks to John and to Glenn, also to Angela,
Maria (appreciated your review), and Mitchell.
I had written this before their postings appeared.
I think I have to agree with Angela that Brandes's
perception is very different from my own.

That was a very interesting article, It's hard
to tell, but I think perhaps that Brandes is
not AA hImself...it would seem to me that several
of these observations seem to have been shaped
by a premiss, regarding a Protestant/Catholic
antipathy. By way of observation, my visits
to Alcoholics Anonymous Groups in Mexico have
shown me that "A Power greater than myself", in
fact, a Power greater than Protestant Christianity
or Catholicism, is no doubt at work in the rooms
of Alcoholics Anonymous in the world today. I
particularly note the idea that "Mexican" meeting
rooms (as opposed to our own?) are set up to
emulate "sacred space" ... true perhaps, but
I'd say that they resemble any large meeting
room anywhere in the world (as do ours) for
that matter, I think, it is quite possible
today that the nature and arrangement of common
meeting rooms have been influenced as much by
AA as the other way around. I've had the
opportunity to travel on three separate
occasions into Mexico, including Mexico City,
all in the service of Alcoholics Anonymous.
In that regard I have been very fortunate
indeed.

Having been in a lot of meeting rooms in
Mexico, I'd say the most distinctive feature
about their meeting rooms is the inclusion
amidst the seating chairs of a number of,
often identical, one or two tiered "occaisional
tables" to accomodate coffee, water, tea and
sometimes cakes or snacks ... these are served
with gusto throughout the meeting and are not
considered as interuptions in the slightest.
The Membership reminds me of what I believe
our own earlier AA must have been like. They
are very concerned with helping one another to
grow and to flourish in AA ... the role of the
Padrino (Sponsor) is taken seriously as is the
role of the Ahijado (Sponsee). I am myself a
Padrino today, as well as a Sponsor here in
our own country. Another marvel of the
internet, and another blessing to be sure.

Rather than a Churchlike atmosphere, I'd say
a typical Mexican Meeting Room resembles a kind
of living room oriented in one particular
direction, most often with a podium and a desk
(also prominent) at the focal point of the room
... (a reminder perhaps that the speaker or
speakers are only a part of the business of the
meeting which is controlled by the secretary
seated there)...and with Coffee and water being
served about you it is sometimes like an Airline
flight in progress. Any resemblance to a
Church layout or to a "Confessional" approach
to speaking could certainly be made with English
speaking AA as well and certainly belies the
idea of the overwhelming influence of either
Christian or Catholic religions. I don't know
of any wall decor more prevalent than the
slogans, (these, as printed by both AAWS and
the Mexican GSO's may appear "Catholic" to some
due to their use of Gothic Script) and, as a
matter of course in Mexican meeting rooms the
"Responsibility Statement", is displayed
prominently, often taking the place of the
Serenity Prayer in English speaking or
"American" meeetings. The "Responsibility
Statement" is taken very seriously by the
members of every group that i've had the good
fortune to visit. Our Hispanic members are
wonderful people with admirable sense of
concern for one another. A visit to Mexico
has the spiritual effect on me of attending
an AA "Revival".

While I don't know the exact ratio of men to
women in Mexican AA, I've never noticed any
noticeable shortage of ladies present, to the
contrary, I've met a good number of very active
women in the meetings there.

Finally, regarding the "male" nature of the
comments overheard at meetings, it seems to me
that men tend to talk that way amongst themselves
all over the world, (I often wonder what the
women talk about?), and, of course, we are each
of us, in varying stages of recovery ourselves,
especially with regard to our consideration
for others. Is there really a dual standard in
effect here, and if so, is it a cultural,
thing, or does it really have anything to do
with AA? I'm sure that such a thing is perhaps
valid as a personal observation; but I am not
sure of its relevance in an "AA" context. I
guesss that's the "group dynamics" part of
his study.

Without a doubt all AA's speak one language
in common "la Lingua de Corazon"...the Language
of the Heart. It is very true that Spanish-
speaking AA is something which should be
appreciated, not only as a growing thing, but
as recognizable and spiritual force for good
in AA today, and it should not be brushed aside
or overlooked.

Tu Companero,
Woody in Akron

0 -1 0 0
4060 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Dr Bob''s signature Dr Bob''s signature 2/1/2007 6:31:00 AM

After recently buying a signed book that was in
Dr.Bob's library,I asked a question to AAHL's
asking if they knew about any other books he
had signed. One member had three, and another
had one. It appears that there may not be
many books out there signed by Dr. Smith. I
assumed that the Akron Archives would have many
and once again I was wrong. Gail L. informed me
that "We have a signature of Dr. Bob's in a
first edition first printing Big Book. That
is the only original signature that we have.
The Smith children sold everything and most of
it is now at Brown University.

I found Dr. Bob's "What is the Oxford Group"
book and donated it to Dr. Bob's House. It was
signed: R H Smith, 855 Ardmore, "His book,
please return"

Anything that you have that we can pass on to
the many who visit would be appreciated."

The book I bought was purchased so that it
could be shown. I will carry it to Jared L's
archives workshop in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania
and also to the 11th National Archives Convention
September 6-9 in Phoenix, Arizona.

If you own AA memorabilia be sure to have it
legally given (willed) to your Intergroup etc.
Make sure your next of kin understands your
wishes and how valuable the material may be to
others. If Akron only has one signature, I can
only shudder when I think of how many of our
archives have been thrown away by family and
friends not knowing what they are.I think that
there must be some of Dr.Bob's books in the
Akron area that were given by Sue or Smitty,
to their friends, that should find their way
to the Akron AA Archives. What a legacy for an
AA to pass on to others; the archives that
rightfully belong to us all. The demand and
cost of AA memorsbilia is sky high. Just look
at an auction on E-Bay. A Big Red with a DJ
goes for $20,000. Sobriety has made many AA's
very wealthy,but it does not relinquish them
from helping others. Giving to Archives is in
the realm of the 7th tradition.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

0 -1 0 0
4061 Glenn Chesnut
Gail La C. and the house at 855 Ardmore Gail La C. and the house at 855 Ardmore 2/2/2007 3:45:00 PM

I have a scanned copy of the initial legal
document (the purchase agreement) for the sale
of Dr. Bob's house at 855 Ardmore Avenue (see
the photo of the property on p. 41 of "Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers").

It was sent to me by "DONALD BENNITT"
dbennitt@sbcglobal.net (dbennitt at sbcglobal.net),
for which I greatly thank him.

If I may summarize the principle parts of the
purchase agreement:

- - - -

Spalding Realty Co, Option to Purchase Real
Estate, dated October 5, 1984.

Seller: Theodore F. Walter
Buyer: Gail La C.

For the property at 855 Ardmore Avenue, Akron,
Ohio 44302 for a total price of $38,000.00.

It was accompanied by $500.00 earnest money.

This option was set up so that the next stages
of the purchase would have to be made before
5:00 p.m. on April 3, 1985, including appropriate
written notification and the receipt by the
seller of an additional $2,500.00.

The purchase agreement was signed by the seller
and by the buyer Gail La C., c/o Attorney Frank
Miller, 1113 Centran Bldg., Akron, OH 44308

0 -1 0 0
4062 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Dr.Bob''s house, Gail L. and the Founders Foundation Dr.Bob''s house, Gail L. and the Founders Foundation 2/1/2007 5:54:00 AM

AAHL's,

Shakey Mike contacted Gail L.,the Akron
Archivist, and asked her what her role was
in obtaining the Dr. Bob House in Akron.

Gail replied and allowed me to reprint her
emails.

Gail commented,

- - - -

"I alone negotiated the purchase of Dr. Bob's
home and held it in name while the Foundation
continued to collect money. The negotiated
purchase document froze the deal until it
could actually be transferred to Founders'
Foundation. I still have a copy of the
document with only my name on it.

"However, I was an early member and part of the
Founders Foundation. I was the one chosen to
make the deal and I did so in my name. It was
not the final mortgage that I signed.

"Does that help??"

- - - -

In a second posting she further added,

"There is a man on the board of Dr. Bob's
house by the name of Bruce who is writing up
the history of the purchase of the home for
their web page. He should help add clarity
to the history of the purchase of the home.

"I showed him many of the early documents. I
guess you could share what I shared with you.
It was decided that I would be the one to
negotiate the purchase because I knew the owner
and had approached him on my own with interest
in the house. I was sworn to secrecy and was
to tell no one. Gail"

- - - -

What this means is that she bid on the house
and froze the deal until the actual mortgage
was secured. It was the details of the
securing of the final mortgage arrangement
that I previously posted.

It seems that so many worked in various ways
to secure Dr. Bob's house for all of us that
it gets back to the basics of AA. Stay sober
and help the newcomer.

Dr.Bob's home has helped so many and will
continue to help others. The birthplace of AA
is a national treasure. A lot of AA's came
together in a time of need to help each other
to help others by giving unselfishly and
preserving our past for our future. It may
have been wrong of me initially to want to
give all the credit to Wesley P., or Kay, or
any other individual when this prosess of
getting and preserving our Dr. Bob house was
brought about through a divine process in
which many participated.

This does,however, allow us the opportunity
to record for others the correct sequence of
events that led to this event.

Your's in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Going to Phoenix in Sept.

0 -1 0 0
4063 Glenn Chesnut
Gail La C. and the National Archives Workshops Gail La C. and the National Archives Workshops 2/2/2007 3:47:00 PM

Gail La C. (Akron, Ohio) is best known in the
fellowship for having spearheaded the formation
of the National Archives Workshops. She was one
of the key people on the planning committees
which organized the ones which were held in
Akron.

I am trying to create a list of the workshops
in order, and where they were held. In going
through my files, I am finding a lot of gaps.
I apologize for not having written these things
down. But could the members of the AAHL help me
reconstruct the full list?

- - - -
1st 1996 Akron
2nd 1997 Akron
3rd 1998 Akron
4th 1999
5th 2000
6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana
7th 2002
8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida
9th 2004 Murfreesboro, Tennessee (near Nashville)
10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana (originally
set for New Orleans, but had to be
postponed a year because of the
hurricane)
11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona

- - - -

There was one in Chicago, I believe (perhaps the
5th) and one on the west coast (which must have
been the 7th), but I did not keep any notes in
my files on these.

I was not at the first Akron conference, but
attended the second one, where I got to meet
Gail, Ernie Kurtz, Mel Barger, and Mary Darrah,
among others, for the first time. I was on the
planning committee for the one in Indiana
(along with Floyd P. and Frank N. from Indiana,
Jim Dorrycott who built the excellent Tennessee
archival repository, and Rick T. from Illinois).
I spoke (along with Sgt. Bill S.) at the one
in Fort Lauderdale (where I got to meet a lot
of fine people), and attended the one in
Tennessee (where I got to tour the Upper Room
headquarters for the first time, a place that
I believe ought to be put on the short list of
"sacred sites" for AA people to visit when
they are passing through that state, especially
the Upper Room Chapel).

But I think it would be good to get a full
listing, and more details on these National
Archives Workshops, because they have been so
important in the creation of a new historical
awareness and interest among people in the AA
fellowship, not only in the U.S. and Canada,
but all over the world.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
4064 Cindy Miller
List of the National Archives Workshops List of the National Archives Workshops 2/2/2007 6:49:00 PM

THE COMPLETE LIST OF THE
NATIONAL ARCHIVES WORKSHOPS

1st 1996 Akron

2nd 1997 Akron

3rd 1998 Akron

4th 1999 Chicago, Illinois

5th 2000 Seattle, Washington

6th 2001 Clarksville, Indiana
(across Ohio river from Louisville, Kentucky)

7th 2002 San Bernardino, California

8th 2003 Fort Lauderdale, Florida

9th 2004 Murfreesboro, in central Tennessee
(about forty miles from Nashville)

10th 2006 Baton Rouge, Louisiana
(originally set for New Orleans,
but the hurricane struck in 2005)

11th 2007 Phoenix, Arizona

- - - -

Cindy Miller and Sally Brown completed the list
for us. Thanks! Glenn Chesnut, Moderator.

- - - -

From Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

HI--

I think 1999 was in Chicago, 2000 was in Seattle,
and 2001 was Louisville, KY.

cm

- - - -

From: "Sally Brown" <rev.sally@worldnet.att.net>
(rev.sally at worldnet.att.net)

Hi, Glenn,

Sept 26-29, 2002, San Bernardino, California.
Dave and I were speakers that year. It was
loads of fun meeting folks. Were you there?

Shalom - Sally

0 -1 0 0
4065 robin_foote
Re:Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 1/31/2007 6:30:00 AM

Hi Guys,

Living Sober has the following:

24 Steering clear of emotional entanglements

So, using "First Things First," we have found
it helpful to concentrate first on sobriety
alone, steering clear of any risky emotional
entanglements.

Immature or premature liaisons are crippling
to recovery. Only after we have had time to
mature somewhat beyond merely not drinking, are
we equipped to relate maturely to other people.

Love, in Fellowship

Robin F.

Australia









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4066 Doucet, Dale T
Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 2/1/2007 4:32:00 PM

There is a video that I watched at Doctor Bob's
house not too long ago. In this video they make
mention of the first "AA couple" and I think it
stated that one of the recently sober members
committed suicide soon after the relationship
started or ended. The video goes on to mention
that this failed relationship came from ignoring
the one year suggestion.

Thanks,
Dale D

0 -1 0 0
4067 chesbayman56
Significant February Dates in A.A. History Significant February Dates in A.A. History 2/1/2007 6:34:00 PM

Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang.
Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill & sophomore class
suspended
Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from
professionalization.
Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use
in his practice.
Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts"
for "we ought" in the Big Book.
Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC.
Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in
pamphlet form for many years.
Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA.
Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is
published.
Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get
married.
Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner.
Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA
by Larry J.
Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died.
Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank
P "The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this as
happening Feb 13, 1937
Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition)
sobriety date.
Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W.
Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem,
NC.
Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was
born.
Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA
group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members.
Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two
years before, at a New York AA meeting.
Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the
right
to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases.
Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA
dies.
Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on
AA by Seymour Rothman.
Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to
tape the Big Book.
Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held
at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street.

0 -1 0 0
4068 John Lee
Re: Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 2/1/2007 6:24:00 PM

Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family plot in
Vermont to see if there's a gravestone for Bertha?
Even though she was never buried in Vermont, it's
common practice to have uncompleted grave markers. If
there's a gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then
there would be some basis for Bill's claim that he
visited Bertha's gravesite.

john lee

0 -1 0 0
4069 David Johnson
Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 2/2/2007 12:54:00 PM

In addition to some specific advice in this area of relationships, it
has been indirectly but quite thoroughly addressed to the fellow
member and/or sponsor of that person in the Big Book, p.69 & 70. All
quotes come from these two pages.

"We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct." And then
the advice for the person in question: "We reviewed our own conduct
over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or
inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy,
suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have
done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it.
In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our
future sex life. We subjected each relation to this test - was it
selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up
to them. We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and
therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be
despised and loathed.
Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow
toward it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm,
provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing. In
other words, we treat sex as we would any other problem. In
meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter.
The right answer will come, if we want it."

Back to everyone else: "God alone can judge our sex situation. Counsel
with persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge."

We're human, we'll probably make mistakes. What then? "Suppose we
fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean we are
going to get drunk? Some people tell us so. But this is only a
half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for
what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to
better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned
our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm
others, we are quite sure to drink."

Then Bill closes with the following: "To sum up about sex: We
earnestly pray for the right ideal, for guidance in each questionable
situation, for sanity, and for the strength to do the right thing. If
sex is very troublesome, we throw ourselves the harder into helping
others. We think of their needs and work for them. This takes us out
of ourselves. It quiets the imperious urge, when to yield would mean
heartache."

Personal responsibility, personal choice, self-examination, open to
guidance from God and others, provided: "We realize that some people
are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid hysterical
thinking or advice." He describes fanatics this way: "One school
would allow man no flavor for his fare and the other would have us all
on a straight pepper diet. We want to stay out of this controversy."

Finally, it's probably important to note that it is primarily
religions which are cited when talking about the de facto "sin" of
pre-marital sex. Given AA has NO affiliation with "any related
facility or outside enterprise including, for example, Christianity,
Judaism or Hinduism," it can hardly dictate group and individual
morality based on any specific religion. Steps two, six and ten act
as protection against those who would dictate any particular flavor of
morality and direction.

Having said all of this, a fellow member or a sponsor, sharing her or
his personal experience, strength and hope in this area would prove
quite helpful, perhaps even indispensable, to anyone interested in
exploring this or any other topic and cannot be dismissed out of hand.
One drunk talking to another.

> AAHL,
> A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically
> in either the Big Book or the 12&12 if the subject
> of refraining from relationships (or any other
> thing that might interfere with sobriety) for
> the first year or so.
>
> That's the general wisdom of my home group
> and I've heard that advice given before, but
> I don't know if it's ever been addressed in
> any Conference-approved literature, or on this
> site, for that matter.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Spiritus contra spiritum!
> Terry P.
>

0 -1 0 0
4070 Mel Barger
Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member Twelve Steps and the Older Member 1/30/2007 3:42:00 PM

Hi Barry,

I suggest that you hang on to that book; there
are probably few copies around.

You probably know it was written by Jerome
Ellison, who had a great career as a writer and
editor before alcoholism laid him low. He came
back in sobriety to become a fairly successful
writer again and was, for a short time, editor
of the Grapevine. He was also a professor at
Indiana University for seven years.

I met him once at the Grapevine offices and
also spent an afternoon visiting with him at
his home in Guilford, CT., in early 1964. He
passed away many years ago.

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)


----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Murtaugh
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 12:01 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Twelve Steps and the Older Member


Hi Folks,

Here on my desk is a paperback with a blue
coated stock cover with the numeral "12" in
gold on it, upper right corner.

Cover is glued to stapled text pages, 5 1/2"
x 7 1/8"

Inside is the title page:
"TWELVE STEPS and the older Member"

Publisher line is:
"Older Member Press,Box 25, Guilford, Conn"

Copyright page:
"Copyright 1964 by Older Member Press
First Serial rights granted A.A. Grapevine
1954 through 1963; all other rights retained
by copyright owner.
First Printing June, 1964.
Library of Congress catalog number:64-22572
Price Two Dollars"

Great lines from the intro:

"The newest newcomer is just as authentically
an explorer into the infinite as were Bill and
Bob when they founded AA on June 10,1935.
Nobody can take the Tweve Steps for anybody
else. Each individual who sets his foot on
the road suggested by the Steps finds himself
on his own endlessly challenging, sometime
perilous journey into undiscovered territory."

In Gratitude 12/24/06
Happy Christmas from Barrington, IL
Barry

Barry Murtaugh
CMLJBM@VOYAGER.NET





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4071 John Lee
Re: Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 2/1/2007 6:24:00 PM

Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family
plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone
for Bertha? Even though she was never buried
in Vermont, it's common practice to have
uncompleted grave markers. If there's a
gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there
would be some basis for Bill's claim that he
visited Bertha's gravesite.

john lee

0 -1 0 0
4072 johnpublico
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 2/2/2007 2:19:00 PM

I'd like to correct a mistake in my earlier post.
The Factory Point Cemetery is in Manchester
Center (about 2 mi from Burr and Burton Academy
where Bill W. and Bertha Bamford were seniors),
not in Dorsett, as I stated.

"Pass It On" quotes articles in the Manchester
Journal which state that Bertha's remains were
placed in a receiving vault at Center Cemetery
on November 22 "to be taken on to Jeffersonville,
Ind, Mrs. Bamford's home, for interment." The
Center Cemetery referred to is probably the
Factory Point Cemetery in Manchester Center.

Since Bertha was interred in Indiana on November
28th, it would seem that Bill could have visited
the receiving vault in Manchester Center for no
more than a couple days before Bertha's remains
were sent by rail to their final rest at the
Walnut Ridge Cemetery in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

Though Bill might have been unable to visit
Bertha's gravesite, he might well have mourned
her passing at the Delwood Cemetery, a
beautiful, tranquil cemetery very near the
school.

John K.

0 -1 0 0
4073 JOHN e REID
Legacy of Wesley P Big Book Study and Purchasing Dr Bobs House... Legacy of Wesley P Big Book Study and Purchasing Dr Bobs House... 1/31/2007 1:38:00 AM

There were also a good contribution from Members
in Australia towards the purchase of Dr. Bob's
house. This was as a result of Wesley's (and Wayne
P from Hugoton Kansas who was Wesley's travelling
mate) visit in 1978 during which time they stayed
with my wife and I and family for circa 2 weeks
and helped start a number of Big Book Studies and
give talks on the Traditions. Wayne P spent
further time close time with us both in Australia
and at his Rocky Mountain retreat and was always
enthusiastic in creating attraction towards the
Dr. Bob House Foundation and the legacy Wesley P
left after his passing in 1985.

Wesley was not well enough to make the 50th
Anniversary International in Montreal but Wayne
P arranged for some of us including Charlie
and Joe to talk to Wesley by phone. As part
of his legacy Wesley sure did us all proud in
New Orleans 1980 when he and Wayne P organised
a luncheon with Lois W as the guest of Honour!!!

Wesley had planted audio copies of the Charlie
and Joe Big Book Study cassette under selected
chairs. Wesley had worked out who may well
make good use of this material and his selections
proved reasonably correct. The was a good
number of Members from Australia at the luncheon
and when we bought Charlie and Joe here during
the 1980's they attributed the success to the
growth in their approach, to the its real kick
start God had provided through Wesley P's
enthusiasm.

This coming March 2007 a Big Book Study Weekend
will be conducted in the Gold Coast of Queensland
Australia and one of the Members (Peter McK)
coordinating the weekend was at that luncheon
at the Marriott in New Orleans in 1980.

Wesley always talked about enthusiasm coming
from an ancient word meaning "God Within!!!!"
He sure generated some enthusiasm in his short
time DownUnder in Australia.

Kind Regards, John R
from Brisbane Tradition Group
Queensland Australia.

0 -1 0 0
4074 Jari Kokkinen
The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/3/2007 4:07:00 PM

Hi everybody!

While I've been reading your comments on the
study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring
myself into asking you all that know or have
thoughts about what is the foundation and current
state of AA's division in Mexico.

This I ask because in Finland we too have two
competing service structures.

Any thoughts appreciated.

In Sobriety,

Jari from Finland



____________________________________________________

Yahoo! Photos is now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo.
http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4075 Chris Budnick
RE: Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member Twelve Steps and the Older Member 2/3/2007 4:15:00 AM

Is this the same Jerome Ellison who wrote a
piece in the Saturday Evening Post about
Narcotics Anonymous?

(These Drug Addicts Cure One Another - Aug.
7, 1954) and Al-Anon (Help For The Alcoholic's
Family - July 2, 1955)

I found this online:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9503E7DD1338F933A25755C0A9679
48260

Jerome Ellison, Author And Ex-Collier's Editor

Published: June 10, 1981

Jerome Ellison, author and former managing
editor of Collier's, died yesterday in the
Connecticut Hospice in Branford. He was 73
years old.

For a number of years, he had lived in
Guilford, Conn.

Mr. Ellison was a founder of Associated
Magazine Contributors, a corporation begun
in 1946 as an owner-contributor publication.
Among the co-owners were Pearl Buck, Roger
Butterfield, John Steinbeck and John Dos
Passos. The pocket-sized magazine appeared
on newsstands as '47 Magazine and lasted a
few years.

A longtime magazine contributor and editor,
Mr. Ellison had worked on Life, Liberty and
The Reader's Digest, as well as Collier's.
During World War II, he was editorial director
of the Bureau of Overseas Publications of
the Office of War Information.

Mr. Ellison's books included ''The Prisoner
Ate a Hearty Breakfast,'' ''John Brown's
Soul,'' ''The Dam'' and ''Report to the
Creator.''

Surviving are two daughters, Judith Ogden
of Lincoln, Mass., and Julie Ellison of
Ann Arbor, Mich., and a grandson.

_____

From: Mel Barger
Subject: Re: Twelve Steps and the Older Member

Hi Barry,

I suggest that you hang on to that book; there
are probably few copies around.

You probably know it was written by Jerome
Ellison, who had a great career as a writer and
editor before alcoholism laid him low. He came
back in sobriety to become a fairly successful
writer again and was, for a short time, editor
of the Grapevine. He was also a professor at
Indiana University for seven years.

I met him once at the Grapevine offices and
also spent an afternoon visiting with him at
his home in Guilford, CT., in early 1964. He
passed away many years ago.

Mel Barger

<melb@accesstoledo.com>
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4076 johnpublico
Re: Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? Bertha Bamford''s grave in Indiana??? 2/3/2007 10:16:00 AM

That's a good thought, John. However, the
Bamfords did not have a family plot in Vermont.
In the Archives article that Gary L. referenced
earlier (http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-
151_markings_winter06.pdf),
William W. writes that he found gravesites
for Bertha as well as her parents in the
Jeffersonville, Indiana, cemetery.

From what I've been able to find out about
the Bamfords, Rev. Walter H. Bamford,
Bertha's father, was born in Hampshire,
England in 1856 and came to this country at
the age of 34. He died in 1926, 14 years
after Bertha. Her mother, Julia Reed Bamford,
was born in Jeffersonville, Indiana, in 1856
and died at the ripe old age of 101. The
archives article says they're buried under
a common headstone nearby Bertha in
Jeffersonville.

Bertha also had a brother, a year younger,
named Walter H. Bamford, Jr.. I haven't been
able to find out too much about him except
that he lived for a time in Passaic, NJ and
New York City and worked in advertising
(I think).

Here's another piece of Bamford trivia. In the
Zion Church which still stands in Manchester
and where Bertha's father was rector, is the
following inscription on the beautiful brass
lectern:

To the Glory of God and in Loving Memory of
Bertha Dorothea Bamford at Rest - November 19,
1912 - R.I.P.

John K.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
John Lee <johnlawlee@...> wrote:
>
> Did anyone bother to check the Bamford family
> plot in Vermont to see if there's a gravestone
> for Bertha? Even though she was never buried
> in Vermont, it's common practice to have
> uncompleted grave markers. If there's a
> gravemarker for Bertha in Vermont, then there
> would be some basis for Bill's claim that he
> visited Bertha's gravesite.
>
> john lee
>

0 -1 0 0
4077 Glenn Chesnut
Baltimore Chip House: name of chart on wall Baltimore Chip House: name of chart on wall 2/6/2007 12:17:00 PM

From: <joejackson_40@yahoo.com>
(joejackson_40 at yahoo.com)

I stopped by the Chip House the other day to
see a friend celebrate an anniversary. The
chart that Rob W. linked to is very similar
to that on the wall at 2613 N. Calvert Street.
The salient difference is that at the bottom
of the chart Rob noted there is a single,
broad loop indicating the vicious cycle with
which many of us are far too familiar. At
the bottom of the chart at the Chip House is
a series of smaller, seemingly interconnected
loops indicating the same cycle.

Here's what I noted as the source of the chart
at the Chip House: The chart on the wall was
distributed at the time of its printing by the
National Council on Alcohol Dependency. It was
reprinted from the British Journal of Addiction
Vol. 54 No. 2 in a paper called "Group Therapy
in Alcoholism" by M.M. Glatt PhD.

BTW -- the Chip House was renovated a few years
ago. It's brighter and much less smokey now;
no smoking is allowed, in fact, even in front of
the place. During the renovation, the chart was
relocated. It now hangs in the main room on the
wall to the left as one enters the room from
Calvert Street.

The Charles Village Group still holds AA Meetings
every day at the Chip House. I heard this
(paraphrase) in my first year from a low-bottom
drunk who'd recovered from a seemingly hopeless
state of mind and body: "I'm not sure where
you'll find God, but I know He lives at the
Chip House."

0 -1 0 0
4078 Bill Lash
Wilson House Fire 1/28/07, E. Dorset VT Wilson House Fire 1/28/07, E. Dorset VT 2/7/2007 8:33:00 AM

An excerpt from a message from Dean at the
Wilson House (where Bill Wilson was born) on
Wed. 1/31/07:

No warm fire to enjoy this time. A real scary
chimney fire struck Sunday Night during my
solitary shift. The Fire Dept. responded very
fast thanks to neighbors calling 911, and the
major damage was contained to the upper portion
of the Chimney. (Working at the desk, I had no
visual or auditory warning that a conflagration
had started.) The intense heat warped and
partially melted the exterior cap and dampener,
and fractured the protective liner in several
places at the attic level exposing the stone
and mortar. If there had been any significant
delay in notification or response time, the
roof and attic would have ignited. The repairs
won't come cheap; the top of the chimney needs
to be extended higher to meet clearance code;
but the bottom line is that the Wilson House
is intact!

DEAN

0 -1 0 0
4079 Tom Hickcox
RE: Wesley P''s concordance Wesley P''s concordance 1/30/2007 5:24:00 PM

I have seen about three copies of Poe's book
sell on eBay for about $140 each over the past
year.

There were apparently two printings, 1990 and
1999.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

Dang it ... I purchased a couple of those $25
raffle tickets and didn't get my concordance.

- - - -

From: <dcatini@bellsouth.net>
(dcatini at bellsouth.net)

Just try online. There are many out there.
Put concordance to BB in Google. It will
come up.

Sincerely,
Denise

- - - -

>From: "momaria33772" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
>(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)
>
>I'm not sure specifically which Concordance is
>referred to here, however, my friend Ray G.,
>the Dr. Bob's Home archivist,is a snow bird
>here in Florida.
>
>He has a few copies of the huge blue hardcover
>available, this is written by Stephen Poe
>printed by Purple Salamander press 1990.

0 -1 0 0
4080 momaria33772
Joe and Charlie workshops functioning again Joe and Charlie workshops functioning again 1/31/2007 5:01:00 PM

Charlie P. just did the "Big Book Comes Alive
Weekend" at Cocoa Beach, Forida on January
19-21, 2007.

I have the entire weekend on CD.

Joe is still not back on the road so Charlie
was ably assisted by Wes B. of Canada.

Maria Hoffman,

Vision Audio Tapes and CD's


-- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, CBBB164@... wrote:
>
> No they are not. Joe McQ has become the victim
> of Parkinson's disease and was replaced by Joe McC.
>
> Charlie P. recently had a hip replacement and Joe
> McC. has had a number of serious health problems.
>
> In God's love and service,
>
> Cliff Bishop
> http://www.ppgaadallas.org
>
> - - - - - -
>
> From: Ollie Olorenshaw
> ollie_olorenshaw@...
> (ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au)
>
> As far as I am aware Joe and Charlie are no
> longer conducting workshops but recordings of
> past workshops are available from various places.
> Here is one.
>
> www.12steptapes.com
>
> and another
>
> www.xa-speakers.org
>
> best wishes
>
> Ollie
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4081 Emmanuel
Pray for those against whom we hold a resentment Pray for those against whom we hold a resentment 1/31/2007 4:35:00 PM

Can anyone tell me where it says to "pray for 2
weeks that the person I am resentful of receive
all the happiness I would want"

Peace & Happy Days o~`o
Emmanuel S. John

- - - -

From the moderator:

This is from the story "Freedom from Bondage,"
Big Book, first appearing in the 2nd ed. The
passage is on p. 552 in both the 3rd ed. and
4th ed.

"'If you have a resentment you want to be free
of, if you will pray for the person or the thing
that you resent, you will be free. If you will
ask in prayer for everything you want for
yourself to be given to them, you will be free
.... Do it every day for two weeks and you will
find you have come to mean it and to want it
for them, and you will realize that where you
used to feel bitterness and resentment and
hatred, you now feel compassionate understanding
and love.'"

Mel Barger thinks the prominent clergyman
referred to in the Big Book story as the source
of that advice may have been Norman Vincent
Peale, but has been unable to find the specific
issue of the magazine where the article about
resentment appeared:

- - - -

Message 3301 from Mel Barger
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3301

Hi Friends:

I would like to know the exact source of a
wonderful quotation on dealing with resentment
that appears in "Freedom From Bondage," a
personal story in the Big Book. The personal
story was first used in the 2nd edition,
published in 1955, and has been retained in
the 3rd and 2nd editions, which indicates that
the editors felt it was of superior quality.

Here's the quotation, which can be found on
p. 552 of the 4th (latest) edition. The author
said she found it in a magazine article and
that it was about getting rid of resentment.
It was by a prominent clergyman. He said,
in effect: If you have a resentment you want
to be free of, if you will pray for the
person or the thing that you resent, you will
be free. If you will ask in prayer for
everything you want for yourself to be given
to them, you will be free. Ask for their health,
their prosperity, their happiness, and you will
be free. Even when you don't really want it for
them and your prayers are only words and you
don't mean it, go ahead and do it anyway. Do it
every day for two weeks, and you will find you
have come to mean it and to want it for them,
and you will realize that where you used to feel
bitterness and resentment and hatred, you now
feel compassionate understanding and love."

The author went on to say it worked for her then
and worked for her since and worked every time
she was willing to work it.

Who was the prominent clergyman who authored
this quotation? My guess is that it was Norman
Vincent Peale, who became very prominent with
his 1952 publication of that blockbuster, "The
Power of Positive Thinking." He was a good
friend of AA and even devoted a large part of
one chapter in that book to AA. But does anyone
know where the above quotation appeared?

It had to be before 1955, because that's when
it first appeared in the Big Book. It was in
a magazine with the word "resentment" on the
cover, as this is what caught the Big Book
writer's attention.

It might have been in Guideposts magazine and
slightly different from the quotation shown
above, as the author used "in effect" in
presenting it.

It's a great quotation, by the way, and ought
to be put on a card and passed around at
meetings, especially when resentment is the
topic. Come to think of it, I think I'll do
that for my group her in Toledo and any of the
History Lovers could easily download it from
this message and circulate it in their own
groups.

LOL to All,
Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio

melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4082 Robyn Mitchell
When and how did Founders'' Day start? When and how did Founders'' Day start? 1/31/2007 11:47:00 PM

Hi there,

Can anyone tell me when and how the celebration
of Founders' Day in Akron first got started?

Many thanks to all of you for your love of God,
Alcoholics and Alcoholics Anonymous,

Robyn

0 -1 0 0
4083 Dale D.
Re: Relationships for the newly-sobered... Relationships for the newly-sobered... 2/5/2007 10:15:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Doucet, Dale T" <dale@...>
wrote:
>
> There is a video that I watched at Doctor Bob's
> house not too long ago. In this video they make
> mention of the first "AA couple" and I think it
> stated that one of the recently sober members
> committed suicide soon after the relationship
> started or ended. The video goes on to mention
> that this failed relationship came from ignoring
> the one year suggestion.
>
> Thanks,
> Dale D
>

I don't know who eddited my message but they changed the meaning.

The point was that it was this failed relationship that the video
claims "STARTED" the suggested of one year before relationships.

Thanks,
Dale D.

0 -1 0 0
4084 Karl Kleen
Tombstones of AA folks on the Find A Grave website Tombstones of AA folks on the Find A Grave website 2/5/2007 8:47:00 AM

Some internet links to photos of tombstones of AA connected folks on the Find A
Grave website:

Father Ed Dowling:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=16958125&

Antoinette B Silkworth:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=11339783&

William Duncan Silkworth:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=11339789&

Anne Ripley Smith:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=5769885&

Robert Holbrook "Doctor Bob" Smith:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=2536&

Lois Burnham Wilson:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=3025&

William G. "Bill" Wilson:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSvcid=19285&GRid=2535&

0 -1 0 0
4085 dallasaa95
Faithful Fivers Faithful Fivers 2/5/2007 11:29:00 AM

Does anyone know the background of this term?
We use it for anyone giving to the Dallas
Central Office on a monthly basis regardless
of the actual amount. I was curious as to the
origins for this and similar terms.

Thanks, Janis

0 -1 0 0
4086 Lee Nickerson
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/5/2007 12:57:00 PM

I have been away from the GSA for a while but
here is what I remember of the Mexican situation.
The original Conference in Mexico had gotten
so far out of whack that at one point an AA Big
Book cost nearly $30 (American). 20,000 Mexican
AA's seceded from that Conference and formed
a Conference called Seccion Mexico.

AA New York would not recognize them and there
was a problem getting books. That began the
printing and distribution to Seccion of the
little Big Book by what is now Anonymous Press.

A lot of this is really unclear to my memory but
basically that is what happened. It degenertaed
to awful proportions and AAWS was suspected by
many to be complicit in the events that followed;
up to and including the arrest by the Federales
of Seccion Mexico's trusted servants, the
confiscation of their materials and the closing
of the office. Many AAs in this Conference
(US and Canada) including former Northeast
Regional Trustee to the GSB, Jake H., protested
AAWS's role in this mess and even went to Mexico
to help untangle it.

Apparently Seccion Mexico survived but I don't
know its status today.

That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and
the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding
its power disgracefully. I remember it actually
solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000
just to grant San Diego the favor of holding
our Intenational Convention there in 1995.

Then there was the German situation where an
AA was taken to court and bankrupted with the
full approval of our General Service Office.
Oh ...don't get me going!

lee


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jari Kokkinen
<jarikokkinen@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everybody!
>
> While I've been reading your comments on the
> study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring
> myself into asking you all that know or have
> thoughts about what is the foundation and current
> state of AA's division in Mexico.
>
> This I ask because in Finland we too have two
> competing service structures.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated.
>
> In Sobriety,
>
> Jari from Finland

0 -1 0 0
4087 Tom Hickcox
12x12 Question 12x12 Question 2/9/2007 6:25:00 PM

Did Bill Wilson write the foreword to the 12x12?

I have a 12x12 printed probably in the early
'90s but there is no indication of printing
number or date. A footnote on p. 15 says

"In 1990. . . approximately two million have
recovered through A.A." and a footnote on
p. 18 says, "In 1990, A.A. is established in
134 countries."

A list of the printings of the book show that
the 43rd and 44th were printed in 1990.

I wonder if any listers have these printings
or might know which printing my mystery book
is?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4088 Danny S
Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? 2/10/2007 10:30:00 AM

Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I
came across this regarding Bill Wilson's
spiritual experience:

". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had
gone through such an experience on Mount
Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details
almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed
to the altar of the local Congregational Church;
announced that he had been saved; and never
drank again for the rest of his life."

I am looking for some documentation of this
event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone
please direct and advise? Has anyone even
heard this before? Thanks

Peace,

Danny Schwarzhoff

- - - -

From the moderator:

One place this is described (I don't know if
it is the only one) is in Susan Cheever, "My
Name Is Bill" (New York: Washington Square
Press, 2004), page 17:

"William Wilson's drinking had led him to
take a series of temperance pledges. One
Sunday morning in despair he climbed to the
top of Mount Aeolus and beseeched God to help
him. He saw a blinding light and felt a
great wind, and rushed down into town to
interrupt the service at the Congregational
Church. Demanding that the minister leave
the pulpit, Wilson described his experience
to the congregation of his friends, neighbors,
and family. Emily loved this story about her
husband's father, and she told it to her son
and husband as often as they would listen. In
the eight years William Wilson lived after
that experience, he never had another drink."

But remember that Bill W. (the co-founder of
AA) rarely talked about his own vision of
the light. He did not regard that as an
important part of his message.

In the Big Book (p. 12), he describes what he
regarded as his real conversion experience
as taking place when Ebby came to talk to
him in his kitchen. "Scales ... fell from
my eyes" was a reference to the story of
the conversion of the Apostle Paul on the
Road to Damascus, and would have been
recognized by almost all Protestants in the
1930's and 40's, because people still read
their Bibles in those days.

In other words, almost everybody in AA
realized in 1939 that Bill was saying here,
by that choice of words, that "THIS was
MY real conversion experience."

What his real conversion experience consisted
of was remembering his experience in Winchester
Cathedral, when he had felt the sense of God's
presence there, but had turned away from that
kind of feeling of God consciousness, and tried
to handle his life totally on the basis of his
own will power and ability to analyze things
intellectually and come up with grand theories.

And he also remembered the grandfather who
told him that you could experience this same
intuition of the sacred and the infinite
while gazing up at the starry heavens at
night. You didn't have to go into a church to
understand the feeling of the divine presence.

To better understand what Bill W. was talking
about in that part of the Big Book, see Rudolf
Otto, "The Idea of the Holy: An Inquiry into
the Non-Rational Factor in the Idea of the
Divine and Its Relation to the Rational."
2nd ed. Trans. John W. Harvey (Oxford: Oxford
University Press, 1950).

Rudolf Otto was regarded as one of the two or
three best theologians of that era. Although
there is no indication that Bill W. had ever
read Otto's book, many of the authors whom
he DID read had read that book and were heavily
influenced by Otto's ideas, including
especially the people who were putting out
The Upper Room, for whom the concept of
maintaining continual "God consciousness"
was extremely important.

Given the difficulty of translating the English
words "spirit" and "spirituality" into German,
German-speaking AA's might find it very useful
to read the original German of Otto's book,
where he puts this in language which would be
more intelligible within the context of German
culture and traditional German vocabulary for
talking about these issues:

Rudolf Otto, "Das Heilige: Über das Irrationale
in der Idee des göttlichen und sein Verhältnis
zum Rationalen. 11th ed. Stuttgart: Friedrich
Andreas Perthes, 1923.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
4089 davidgolden99
Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical 2/8/2007 3:35:00 PM

The beginner's group where I got sober used an
"AA definition" of alcoholism that says the
disease affects us "spiritually, mentally and
physically, and we recover in the reverse order
(physically, mentally, then spiritually)."

Page 64 of the Big Book (4th ed.) says, "When
the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten
out mentally and physically."

Is there an actually "AA definition" which
reverses the order, and if so, what is its
source? Is there a text, or is it part of an
oral AA tradition?

Why is the recovery in this definition which
I was given the opposite of what is written in
"How It Works?"

0 -1 0 0
4090 Tom Hickcox
Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Hartigan''s book Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Hartigan''s book 2/10/2007 5:18:00 PM

At 09:30 2/10/2007 , Danny S wrote:

>Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I
>came across this regarding Bill Wilson's
>spiritual experience:
>
>". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had
>gone through such an experience on Mount
>Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details
>almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed
>to the altar of the local Congregational Church;
>announced that he had been saved; and never
>drank again for the rest of his life."
>
>I am looking for some documentation of this
>event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone
>please direct and advise? Has anyone even
>heard this before? Thanks
>
>Peace,
>
>Danny Schwarzhoff

This same event is related in Francis Hartigan's
book "Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics
Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson," Thomas Dunne
Books, New York, 2001, on pages 10-11.

"Bill's grandfather Wilson also linked Mount
Aeolus to a profound spiritual experience. . . .
he climbed Mount Aeolus. There, after
beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding
light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was
a conversion experience that left him feeling
so transformed that he practically ran down
the mountain and into town.

"When he reached the East Dorset Congregational
Church, which is across the street from the
Wilson House, the Sunday service was in
progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into
the church and demanded that the minister get
down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place,
he proceeded to relate his experience to the
shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather
never drank again. He was to live another
eight years, sober." Hartigen does not give
the source of this story.

It is not mentioned in Thomsen's book.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4091 ann
Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/11/2007 10:50:00 PM

I've been a part of AA for many years and I have
been researching the women of AA. Does anyone
know if Wynn Corum & Marty Mann knew each other?
and to what extent their personal relationship
was (if any?) They were both some of the first
women of AA.

0 -1 0 0
4092 Jay Lawyer
RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/11/2007 5:07:00 PM

Jari,

Seccion Mexico is doing fine: http://aa.org.mx/

From my friend Norm D.

I think GSOs, like groups, tend to get enough
problems that someone or some group of folks
will break away and start 'new' doing it the
"right way"


Jay


--- In AAHistoryLovers@ <mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, Jari Kokkinen
<jarikokkinen@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everybody!
>
> While I've been reading your comments on the
> study of AA in Mexico City I ventured to bring
> myself into asking you all that know or have
> thoughts about what is the foundation and current
> state of AA's division in Mexico.
>
> This I ask because in Finland we too have two
> competing service structures.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated.
>
> In Sobriety,
>
> Jari from Finland





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4093 Tom H.
RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/11/2007 11:24:00 PM

To the moderator, this is not true...

"That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and
the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding
its power disgracefully. I remember it actually
solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000
just to grant San Diego the favor of holding
our Intenational Convention there in 1995."

...from the email below.

- - - - - - - -

San Diego had promised a transportation system
that it did not deliver. As a result GSO had
to pay for our membership to get back and
forth to the venues. The check San Diego paid
to GSO is only the same amount GSO paid for
transportation.

When a group (GSO) brings about 50 million
dollars to a city this is nothing more than
standard business practice. Does a city get
the Olympics without promising to provide
certain construction for venues and
transportation?

This is how false rumors get started.

Thank you


-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico
(and Finland)

I have been away from the GSA for a while but
here is what I remember of the Mexican situation.
The original Conference in Mexico had gotten
so far out of whack that at one point an AA Big
Book cost nearly $30 (American). 20,000 Mexican
AA's seceded from that Conference and formed
a Conference called Seccion Mexico.

AA New York would not recognize them and there
was a problem getting books. That began the
printing and distribution to Seccion of the
little Big Book by what is now Anonymous Press.

A lot of this is really unclear to my memory but
basically that is what happened. It degenertaed
to awful proportions and AAWS was suspected by
many to be complicit in the events that followed;
up to and including the arrest by the Federales
of Seccion Mexico's trusted servants, the
confiscation of their materials and the closing
of the office. Many AAs in this Conference
(US and Canada) including former Northeast
Regional Trustee to the GSB, Jake H., protested
AAWS's role in this mess and even went to Mexico
to help untangle it.

Apparently Seccion Mexico survived but I don't
know its status today.

That was a bad time in AAs history. AAWS and
the General Service Board of Trustees was wielding
its power disgracefully. I remember it actually
solicited the City of San Diego for $150,000
just to grant San Diego the favor of holding
our Intenational Convention there in 1995.

Then there was the German situation where an
AA was taken to court and bankrupted with the
full approval of our General Service Office.
Oh ...don't get me going!

lee

0 -1 0 0
4094 Emmanuel
Re: Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? Grandaddy Wilson''s spiritual experience? 2/12/2007 9:34:00 AM

It might also be worth noting that Bill's
grandfather lived in the house right next door
to the church. THis church is about 25 feet
from the house. He would have had to run past
the front door of the church to get home. For
those who have not been there, this town has a
total of about 10-15 houses, very small, and
if he were to try and find anyone else he
would have had to enter the bar (where the
liquor was), now known as the Wilson House.

Emmanuel
Baltimore


On 2/10/07, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> wrote:
>
> At 09:30 2/10/2007 , Danny S wrote:
>
> >Hi everyone. Going through Wikipedia (ugh) I
> >came across this regarding Bill Wilson's
> >spiritual experience:
> >
> >". . . .. his grandfather Willie Wilson had
> >gone through such an experience on Mount
> >Aeolus in East Dorset, Vermont; reported details
> >almost identical to those Bill reported; rushed
> >to the altar of the local Congregational Church;
> >announced that he had been saved; and never
> >drank again for the rest of his life."
> >
> >I am looking for some documentation of this
> >event of William G. Wilson's. Can someone
> >please direct and advise? Has anyone even
> >heard this before? Thanks
> >
> >Peace,
> >
> >Danny Schwarzhoff
>
> This same event is related in Francis Hartigan's
> book "Bill W., A Biography of Alcoholics
> Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson," Thomas Dunne
> Books, New York, 2001, on pages 10-11.
>
> "Bill's grandfather Wilson also linked Mount
> Aeolus to a profound spiritual experience. . . .
> he climbed Mount Aeolus. There, after
> beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding
> light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was
> a conversion experience that left him feeling
> so transformed that he practically ran down
> the mountain and into town.
>
> "When he reached the East Dorset Congregational
> Church, which is across the street from the
> Wilson House, the Sunday service was in
> progress. Bill's grandfather stormed into
> the church and demanded that the minister get
> down from the pulpit. Then, taking his place,
> he proceeded to relate his experience to the
> shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather
> never drank again. He was to live another
> eight years, sober." Hartigen does not give
> the source of this story.
>
> It is not mentioned in Thomsen's book.
>
> Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4095 Arthur Sheehan
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/12/2007 12:28:00 AM

Hi Lee

History is supposed to propagate facts not
beliefs. If you would care to review "the other
side" of the German lawsuit story, please refer
to AAHL messages 2860, 2873 and 2907.

Message 2860 contains a General Service Board
report to the 2004 General Service Conference.
It details how from 1993 (and for over a
decade) they tried to get the German AA member
to stop violating German copyright law (he was
actually distributing Big Books in several
countries in several languages).

Message 2873 responds to a criticism posted in
AAHL that echoed the same litany of criticisms
that have been directed at the GSB, AAWS and GSO.

Message 2907 is a detailed analysis of the
German Big Book translation versus the English
counterpart. The most stunning discovery was
how the German AA member, who is portrayed as
some sort of martyr (no pun intended on his
name) had no factual basis for his claims that
the German Big Book translation removed reference
to "God" and "spirituality" from text.

His whole case rested on torturous semantic
hair-splitting of the use of the German words
"geistig" and "seelisch" in the translation
instead of his preferred German word
"spirtuelle."

There is a point of interest regarding the past
$30 Big Book price in Mexico (which today's
Spanish language version costs $6 from AAWS).
The $3.50 price of the 1939 first edition Big
Book would be the equivalent of around $50 in
2006 dollars. It was a very expensive book.

An English language hard cover 4th edition Big
Book today costs $6 from AAWS. That's about 1/8
of what it cost 1i 1939 (disregarding collector's
value of course).

It would be nice to give the GSB, AAWS and GSO
some credit where credit is due.

Cheers
Arthur

(PS haven't posted here in a while - been very,
very busy)

0 -1 0 0
4096 Sally Brown
Re: Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/13/2007 1:02:00 PM

Dave and I didn't come across Wynn Corum's name
when we were researching the Marty Mann bio, but
I would guess that both women did know each other.

I would love to know about Wynn.

City? Approximate sobriety date and age?
Anything of her story? And what is Ann's
particular interest? Etc?

Thanks, and shalom - Sally

- - - -

Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R Brown:
"A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady
of Alcoholics Anonymous"

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ

www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
1470 Sand Hill Road, 309
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4097 David Jones
RE: Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical Which direction do we recover? Spiritual-Mental-Physical 2/10/2007 5:03:00 PM

I would suggest it is the opposite of the
definition you have written to ‘How It Works’,
because of the way the big book defines the
illness of alcoholism and also its solution.

First the book defines the illness as being
physical, then mental; and possibly spiritual
(the so-called hole in the soul).

Then it outlines the solution which is spiritual
in nature to overcome the physical and mental;
especially the mental.

I would suggest that a recovery that appeared
to be at first physical, then mental, then
spiritual to be illusory.

If I simply stopped drinking I would physically
improve, but would I be recovering mentally?
And if not mentally then how could I be recovering
spiritually?

By adopting a spiritual solution I am employing
spiritual principles: honesty, openness,
willingness, humility, etc. As well as in the
other sense God to recover. Recovery must begin
first with the spiritual, and as it begins I
then begin to straighten out both physically
and mentally.

Here is Carl Jung’s letter to Bill W. (BELOW)

I conclude do I straighten out physically,
mentally and then wait for the miracle to happen;
or is it the other way round?

God bless

Dave

- - - - - - - -

Carl Jung's letter to Bill W


Your letter has been very welcome indeed.

I had no news from Roland H. anymore and often
wondered what had been his fate. Our conversation
which he has adequately reported to you had an
aspect of which he did not know. The reason that
I could not tell him everything was that those
days I had to be exceedingly careful of what I
said. I had found out that I was misunderstood
in every possible way. Thus I was very careful
when I talked to Roland H. But what I really
thought about, was the result of many experiences
with men of his kind.

His craving for alcohol was equivalent, on a
low level, of the spiritual thirst of our
being for wholeness, expressed in medieval
language: the union with God.

How could one formulate such an insight in a
language that is not misunderstood in our days?

The only right and legitimate way to such an
experience is, that it happens to you in
reality and it can only happen to you when
you walk on a path that leads you to a higher
understanding. You might be led to that goal
by an act of grace or through a personal and
honest contact with friends, or through a
higher education of the mind beyond the confines
of mere rationalism. I see from your letter
that Roland H. has chosen the second way, which
was, under the circumstances, obviously the
best one.

I am strongly convinced that the evil principle
prevailing in this world leads the unrecognised
spiritual need into perdition, if it is not
counteracted either by real religious insight
or by the protective wall of human community.
And ordinary man, not protected by an action
from above and isolated in society, cannot
resist the power of evil, which is called very
aptly the Devil. But the use of such words
arouses so many mistakes that one can only keep
aloof from them as much as possible.

These are the reasons why I could not give a
full and sufficient explanation to Roland H.
but I am risking it with you because I conclude
from your very decent and honest letter that
you have acquired a point of view above the
misleading platitudes one usually hears about
alcoholism.

You see, Alcohol in Latin is “spiritus” and
you use the same word for the highest religious
experience as well as for the most depraving
poison. The helpful formula therefore is:
SPIRITUS CONTRA SPIRITUM.

Thanking you again for your kind letter.
I remain sincerely yours

C.G.Jung

- - - - - - - -

The beginner's group where I got sober used an
"AA definition" of alcoholism that says the
disease affects us "spiritually, mentally and
physically, and we recover in the reverse order
(physically, mentally, then spiritually)-."

Page 64 of the Big Book (4th ed.) says, "When
the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten
out mentally and physically."

Is there an actually "AA definition" which
reverses the order, and if so, what is its
source? Is there a text, or is it part of an
oral AA tradition?

Why is the recovery in this definition which
I was given the opposite of what is written in
"How It Works?"

0 -1 0 0
4098 Glenn Chesnut
Ernie Kurtz, "Shame & Guilt," now available online Ernie Kurtz, "Shame & Guilt," now available online 2/14/2007 2:36:00 AM

Ernie Kurtz, "Shame & Guilt," 2nd ed. revised
and updated, now available online.

This second edition, which has recently been
revised and updated, will soon appear in print.

But the entire book is now available to read
online, for those who would like to read it in
that format:

http://hindsfoot.org/kek1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/eksg.html
______________________________

Originally published twenty-six years ago
as Shame and Guilt: Characteristics of the
Dependency Cycle (A Historical Perspective
for Professionals). Center City, Minnesota:
Hazelden, 1981.
______________________________

Also by Kurtz:

Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous (Hazelden)

The Spirituality of Imperfection (Bantam)

The Collected Ernie Kurtz (The Bishop of Books)

0 -1 0 0
4099 Fiona Dodd
Re: Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/13/2007 4:16:00 PM

Wynn Corum Laws stepdaughter Carolyn See wrote
a book Dreaming: Hard Luck and Good Times in
America, which more or less tells Wynn's story.
I read it a few years ago and don't remember
it mentioning Marty Mann or their knowing each
other personally.

Fiona

0 -1 0 0
4100 amytreau
Passing of Nell Wing Passing of Nell Wing 2/15/2007 4:26:00 PM

Dear Friends:

It is with great sadness that we share the news
that Nell Wing died on Wednesday, February 14,
2007 at 7:00 p.m. after a lengthy illness. Nell
was 89 years old.

As most of you know, Nell was Bill W.'s secretary
and assistant for 17 years and a close friend
and long-time companion to Lois W. She worked
at the General Service Office of A.A. from the
beginning of 1947 until her retirement at the
close of 1982, starting as a receptionist and
later becoming secretary of A.A. World Services,
Inc. Additionally, she served as G.S.O.'s first
archivist for the last ten of her years at the
office. The Archives opened in 1975.

We would like to take a moment to celebrate
Nell's life and share the following:

From Markings, November/December 1983, when
Nell announced her retirement in print:
"…I hope to stay nearby; and never lessen
interest in this fellowship, nor loosen the
close bonds of friendship with my A.A. and
Al-Anon friends. I'm forever grateful for this
marvelous experience that began for me on
March 3, 1947, at 415 Lexington Ave., New York
City, in 3 small rooms of the Central Terminal
Building. I have enjoyed and treasured every
moment of it. I won't say `goodbye:' just want
to extend my love and thanks to each one of
you dear friends."

Please join all of us at the General Service
Office in extending our heartfelt condolences
to Nell's family.

Thank you,

Amy Filiatreau
Archivist
AA World Services, Inc.
filiatreaua@aa.org

0 -1 0 0
4101 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Nell Wing has passed Nell Wing has passed 2/15/2007 12:04:00 PM

I'm sorry to report to my AAHL friends that
AA'S Number One Archivist, Miss Nell Wing,
passed last evening at 7 P. M.

Her nephew, another Bill W., called me earlier
today to let me know that this dear sweet
lady has gone to meet her maker and will be
joining the other Giants of AA. Nell had been
in a nursing home the last few years and her
health had been declining.

There will be a service on Saturday February
24th. from 1 P.M. to 5 P.M. at the Moore's
Funeral Home 1591 Alps Rd Wayne , NJ 07470.

The Funeral home has a web site
www.mooresinfo.com
http://www.mooresinfo.com
(look under Nell Wing)

The telephone # for Moore's is 973 694 0072

At 5 P.M. representatives of the US Coast Guard
(Nell served there till 1946 when she came
to AA) will present the family with a flag.

If it were not for this lady there may not be
an AAHL site because she started and collected
our history. On the wall of her apartment hangs
a certificate from the Smithsonian to Nell as
AA's First Archivist.

When the 4th edition of the Big Book came out
we went to visit Nell and presented her with
a 4th edition. She posed for photographs and
signed some books and never stopped smiling.
I think the one thing I will never forget about
her is her smile. It never ended.

Her apartment was a joy to see. She had pictures
of the cofounders. as well as an oil painting
of Bill and Bob. She was with Bill and Lois
till the end.

Many of the members of this site remember her
for the help and friendliness she showed to
a lot of drunks.

May she rest in peace,

The world is a better place because of
this woman,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

0 -1 0 0
4102 Bill Lash
AA History Pictures Presentation, Oak Ridge NJ, 3/1/07 AA History Pictures Presentation, Oak Ridge NJ, 3/1/07 2/15/2007 3:20:00 PM

“The Thursday Night Big Book Group”
of Oak Ridge NJ presents

An AA History Presentation
with 190 Pictures of Early AA

With Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ
Area 44 History & Archives Chairperson

March 1, 2007
7:00PM – 8:30PM

St. Gabriel’s Church
153 Milton Road
Oak Ridge, NJ

It is pictures from the first 30 years of AA.
Pictures of the Washingtonians,Frank Buchman,
Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves, Ebby, Bill &
Lois, Bill's parents & grandparents, Lois's
parents, Dr. Bob's family, all the OH/VT
places, Henrietta Seiberling, Bill D., Ernie
G., Clarence S., Sr. Ignatia, all the N.Y.
& N.J. places, Charlie Towns & Dr. Silkworth,
Hank P., when the early literature was
published, the Rockefeller dinner,
gravesites, etc.

It's very exciting, combining the stories
with the images.

Oak Ridge, New Jersey, is centrally located for
lots of people on the East Coast, northwest of
New York City, west of New Haven, Connecticut,
and north of Philadelphia and Trenton. Less
than an hour from a lot of places.

DIRECTIONS TO ST. GABRIEL’S CHURCH:

Coming from Route 23 North/South: turn onto
Oak Ridge Road and follow for approx. 4 miles,
going thru the light at Ridge Road/Lukoil gas
station, make a right onto Legion Road/Milton
Road (Milton Garage is on the left and St.
Thomas Church is right in front of you),
follow Milton Road approx. 1 mile and as you
round the bend the church will be on your left,
if you pass the firehouse on your left you
have gone too far.

Coming from Route 15 (Berkshire Valley Road):
turn right onto Berkshire Valley Road south
and follow approx. 7 miles and turn left onto
Milton Road/Legion Road (by the Gulf Station
& St. Thomas Church), follow 1/2 mile to the
stop sign, bear to your left and the church
will be on your left.

Coming from Route 15 (to Weldon Road): follow
Weldon Road to the end, bear right and follow
Milton Road for approx 1 mile - firehouse
will be on the right and the church will be
on your left.

*****If there is no parking left in the
lot please park across the street, if you
are not sure come inside and ask.*****

For more information please call Rose M.
973-769-4337 (cell).

0 -1 0 0
4103 Glenn Chesnut
Mel B. on Nell Wing''s life Mel B. on Nell Wing''s life 2/15/2007 8:00:00 PM

NELL WING
By Mel B., Toledo, OH

Many of us in AA feel that God brings the
right people into our lives, at the right time
and in the right way. This was certainly true
of Nell Wing, who died on Wednesday, Febr. 14.
She came to work at GSO in a temporary job in
March 1947 and stayed until her retirement in
1982.

Though a nonalcoholic, her devotion to AA
became nearly absolute, and as the years passed
she formed friendships with members throughout
the world. She never married, and AA really
became her extended family, with Bill and Lois
Wilson as her surrogate parents.

Nell was 29 when she reported to work at
GSO (then called the Alcoholic Foundation).
She had attended Keuka College in central New
York state and served two years as a SPAR (a
female Coast Guard sailor). She only wanted
short-term employment until leaving for Mexico
to study sculpture under the G.I. Bill. But
as she recalled later, “From the beginning, I
was caught by the A.A. Fellowship, particularly
by the caring. It was not so much a general
‘caring for our fellowman,’ but a one-on-one
caring, a love for one another without thought
of any reward.” Mexico faded into the
background, and she spent 35 years at GSO!

Nell served as receptionist and did other
clerical work at GSO before becoming Bill’s
secretary in 1950. Highly competent as a
secretary, she also became Bill’s staunch
defender, giving him support and reassurance
when members wrote angry letters or when he
became plagued by self-doubt and depression.
More than almost anybody, Nell knew how much
Bill suffered when attacked by the very people
who should have been grateful to him. After
his death in 1971, she said she lost “my close
friend and confidant, the big brother/father
figure of my middle life.”

She then became AA’s first archivist, with
responsibility for organizing and filing all
the documents and other records of our history.
Though not trained in library science, she
quickly learned the essentials of archiving
and set up a logical system that works extremely
well to this day. She also continued as Bill’s
loyal advocate and carefully documented his
specific contributions to AA’s origin, growth,
and success.

Nell and Lois became even closer after
Bill’s passing. Nell often spent weekends with
Lois at Stepping Stones and became concerned
that the older woman insisted on living alone
though becoming increasingly frail. Lois’s
passing in 1988 was another great loss in her
life.

With a loving nephew as her guardian,
Nell was a resident at a Sunrise Assisted
Living home in New Jersey.

~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4104 Glenn Chesnut
Nell Wing Memorial Book Nell Wing Memorial Book 2/16/2007 12:35:00 PM

Doug B. has set up a memorial book on the
internet for those who would like to post a
few words expressing their love for Nell
and gratitude for all that she did, on the
AAHistory website:

http://www.aahistory.com

Close to the top of the opening page on the
website, it says:

- - - - - - - -
Nell Wing, Bill W.'s secretary and AA's first
archivist, passed from this life February 14,
2007. You are invited to sign her memorial
book at click here, and leave your thoughts.
- - - - - - - -

Clicking there will take you to:

http://www.aahistory.com/nellwing/sign.php

What you write there will be made available
for Nell's family and friends.

- - - - - - - -

To see what was written in some of the other
Memorial Books, see for example:


Dr. Paul O.
http://www.aahistory.com/drpaulo.html

Searcy W.
http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest12.html
http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/guestbook12.html

Nancy O.
http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/addguest17.html
http://www.aahistory.com/guestbook/guestbook17.html

- - - - - - - -

For additional information about the Memorial
Book and/or the AAHistory website, contact:

"Doug B." dougb@aahistory.com
(dougb at aahistory.com)

0 -1 0 0
4105 ~ the >i
Obituary: Nell Wing Obituary: Nell Wing 2/15/2007 11:31:00 PM

Nell Wing's obituary, as posted on the Moore's
Funeral Home website:

http://www.mooresinfo.com/ecom/sp/;cat=obituaries;obit=2949

================
Janet E. (Now P.)
Michigan

"~ the >i< butterfly ~"
<butterfly2.4.79@comcast.net>
(butterfly2.4.79 at comcast.net)

emeritus archivist
1983-90 San Diego & Imperial Counties
California A.A.
================

THE TEXT OF THE OBITUARY:

Nellie Elizabeth Wing
Home: Wayne, NJ
Date of Death: February 14, 2007
Age: 89
Birthplace: Kendall, NY
Birthdate: May 27, 1917
Service Date: Saturday, Feb 24, 2007
at 4:00 pm
Visitation Date: Saturday, Feb 24, 2007
from 1-5PM
Service Place: Moore's Home For
Funerals, Wayne, NJ
Final Disposition: Laurel Grove
Crematory, Totowa, NJ

Nellie Elizabeth Wing, age 89, died Wednesday,
February 14, 2007 at Sunrise Assisted Living,
Wayne.

Ms. Wing was born May 27, 1917 in Kendall, NY
the daughter of the late William Frank and
the late Daisy (Shepard) Wing. She lived
in Wayne and was formerly of New York, NY.

Ms. Wing was a 1940 graduate of Keuka College
in NY. From 1944 – 1946 she served in the
US Coast Guard and earned the American Area
Campaign Medal and The World War II Victory
Campaign Medal.

She was the Administrative assistant to Bill
Wilson, the founder of A.A., in New York
City from 1947 until 1982. After that, she
traveled the world and became the 1st archivist
for A.A.

Ms. Wing attended the Lakeland Unitarian
Universalist Fellowship, in Wayne. She was
a Watercolor Artist and a Sculptor as well
as the Author of the book: GRATEFUL TO HAVE
BEEN THERE.

She is survived by Nephews; William L. Wing
of West Milford, David Wing of PA, Michael
Bowler of Las Vegas, NV and a Niece, Maria
Oplatka of CA. She was predeceased by her
Brothers, William F. and Roswell B. Wing
and her Sister, Mary Bowler.

Visiting hours will be Saturday, Feb. 24,
2007 from 1-5PM at Moore's Home for Funerals,
1591 Alps Road, Wayne, NJ. A service of will
be held at 4:00 pm and will be celebrated
by the family. Private cremation and burial
to follow.

Memorials may be made to the Alzheimer's
Association, 400 Morris Ave, Suite 251,
Denville, NJ 07853

0 -1 0 0
4106 Mike B.
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland) 2/14/2007 3:08:00 PM

From Mike B., James Blair, and Mitchell K.

- - - - - - - -

From: "Mike B." <mikeb384@verizon.net>
(mikeb384 at verizon.net)

"San Diego had promised a transportation system
that it did not deliver. As a result GSO had to pay
for our membership to get back and forth to the
venues. The check San Diego paid to GSO is only
the same amount GSO paid for transportation."

"When a group (GSO) brings about 50 million
dollars to a city this is nothing more than standard
business practice. Does a city get the Olympics
without promising to provide certain construction
for venues andtransportation?"

The above is absolutely correct. I worked in the
convention & trade show industry for 41 years
before retiring, and underwriting of certain
expenses, usually shuttle transportation is common
practice among major CVBs. It is a formula-based
usually on number of sleeping rooms picked up.

Mike B.
Happy to be retired

- - - - - - - -

From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

Tom H. wrote

The check San Diego paid to GSO is only the
same amount GSO paid for transportation. That
may well be but when City Council publicly votes
to give money to an organization which lays claim
to be "self-supporting" it creates confusion
in the minds of the public and the membership
and leaves our spirituality open to question. Is
that worth 150K?

Jim

- - - - - - - -

From: "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

My mistake. I didn't think AA was supposed to be
like every other business like IBM, DOW Chemical
or the Olympics. Since when are we supposed to be
like any other business with so-called standard
business practices like being cut-throat,
discriminating against employees, canceling
pensions and the like. Are we using standard
business practices like Enron?

Lest problems of MONEY, PROPERTY (Intellectual
and other property), PRESTIGE and POWER divert
us from our primary purpose. GSO doesn't bring
$50 million dollars anywhere - AA MEMBERS
BROUGHT THAT MONEY! Please do not forget
that AA is comprised of members and not that
business in NYC. ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IS A
FELLOWSHIP OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO MEET TO SHARE
THEIR EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH AND HOPE WITH EACH
OTHER.

0 -1 0 0
4107 Mike Brewer
Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info 2/14/2007 9:58:00 AM

Does anyone have any biographical information
on Henry Parkhurst and/or his family/genealogy?

I am trying to work out his genealogy and all
his family connections, but the family was so
large, I am having difficulty working it out
without having more biographical data on him.

Any info about him could be a big help.

Birth/death dates, locations, parents' names,
etc.

Thanks, Mike

0 -1 0 0
4108 rollemupjohnson
Bill W. Letter? Bill W. Letter? 2/14/2007 10:42:00 PM

I'm looking for the source of a Bill W. quote:

"I want to remind myself and anyone who would
listen that AA is not a personal success story.
It is instead the story of our colossal human
failures...now converted into the happiest kind
of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living
grace of God"

Thanks,

JKell13@BellSouth.net
(JKell13 at BellSouth.net)

or

RollEmUpJohnson@Yahoo.com
(RollEmUpJohnson at Yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4109 edgarc@aol.com
Re: Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/15/2007 12:39:00 AM

Wynn's daughter is very approachable and
communicative via email. Contact me offlist
and I'll send along her email address.

Edgar C, Sarasota, Fla.
edgarc@aol.com
(edgarc at aol.com)

0 -1 0 0
4110 Bob McK.
A.A. International in San Diego A.A. International in San Diego 2/17/2007 12:00:00 PM

The original thread was the division of AA in
Mexico. This somehow got "kitchen-sinked" with
division in Finland plus the German copyright
case plus "cash incentives." These are separate
issues. I have no experience with all the
formers, just the latter.

It is my understanding that the San Diego cash
incentive was part of the package offered by
their Convention and Visitors Bureau to AA to
hold its International Convention in their
city. The GSB did not solicit this. At the 1997
General Service Conference Larry N., Trustee-
at-Large for the USA and a San Diego native,
was asked if his area solicited this from the
CVB. He saidthey did not.

Some Conference members there thought that
it is possible that some member(s) exhorted
them to do so. It was not AA as such, however.

The GSB policy was essentially that if the
same package would be offered any other "like
organization" then we may accept it. If we did
not accept the perquisites offered by hotels
and CVBs to hold our Conventions and Conferences
--i.e., free ballroom space, comp rooms, etc.--
then they would be priced out of our ability
to host them. These incentives are offered
not as contributions to us, but rather as
encouragement for us to hold them there and
not across the street (or across the country).

The Conference reviewed the GSB policy with
hours of debate and eventually upheld it
strongly. I seem to recall the vote was 110-12
in favor. And even at that some felt that some
of the dissenters came from parts of the
country that competed with San Diego for the
Int'l Convention and lost. They felt they had
"sour grapes."

The issue was revived in '99 and we somewhat
dismissed it, feeling it was sufficiently
covered the previous year. We were wrong. And
so the issue popped up again in 2000. It had
yet longer debate ending ultimately in another
decisive vote. I am told it was many-to-6.
I am also told that the dissenters thanked the
Conference for letting them have their say.

I am writing this with the intent of adding
my recollection of these historic events, not
as an effort to again stir up this controversy.

0 -1 0 0
4111 Mitchell K.
Re: Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info Henry Parkhurst genealogy Info 2/17/2007 1:21:00 AM

Hi Mike,

The only living expert on Hank I know is
Merton M. who is a member of this group:

mertonmm3@yahoo.com
(mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)


--- Mike Brewer <tuswecaoyate@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have any biographical information
> on Henry Parkhurst and/or his family/genealogy?
>
> I am trying to work out his genealogy and all
> his family connections, but the family was so
> large, I am having difficulty working it out
> without having more biographical data on him.
>
> Any info about him could be a big help.
>
> Birth/death dates, locations, parents' names,
> etc.
>
> Thanks, Mike
>
>

0 -1 0 0
4112 Tom Hickcox
Re: Bill W. Letter? Bill W. Letter? 2/16/2007 8:26:00 PM

Not a literal quote but very similar is a
letter Bill wrote in 1959 and quoted on p. 35
of A.A. Way of Life/As Bill Sees It

A.A. is no success story in the ordinary sense of
the word. It is a story of suffering transmuted,
under grace, into spiritual progress.

I would note that a number of quotes in
AAWL/ABSI are not true to the originals.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - - - - - -

At 21:42 2/14/2007 , rollemupjohnson wrote:


>I'm looking for the source of a Bill W. quote:
>
>"I want to remind myself and anyone who would
>listen that AA is not a personal success story.
>It is instead the story of our colossal human
>failures...now converted into the happiest kind
>of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living
>grace of God"

0 -1 0 0
4113 Charles Knapp
Bill W. Letter? Bill W. Letter? 2/18/2007 4:25:00 AM

From Charles Knapp and Gary Rohde: the quote is
similar to something said on a recording of Bill
W. speaking in 1947.

- - -

From: "Charles Knapp" <cdknapp@pacbell.net>
(cdknapp at pacbell.net)

Hello

I believe the quote you gave is from an LP
recoded Bill made in April or May 1947. The
original version of the quote is as follows:

"Perhaps this is not the place to talk at
length of my own recovery, of our A.A. program
in detail, or of our astounding growth. This
room is filled with fellow alcoholics who know
and practice the A.A. way of life as well as
I. The accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous
are headlined in the press of the world. So
I shall be content if I can remind myself, and
any who would hear that Alcoholics Anonymous is
not, after all, a personal success story. It
is instead, the story of our colossal human
failures now converted into the happiest kind
of usefulness by that divine alchemy - the
living grace of God."

That was from a talk Bill gave April 9, 1947 in
Los Angeles. When Bill got back to New York he
revised his talk a little and cut a record that
the Alcoholic Foundation sold. I found information
in an early exchange bulletin that said the
records would go on sale in June 1947. If you
went to the International Convention in Toronto,
this quote was part of the GSO Archives display.

Encore Tapes sells a taped version of the
recording, but so far have been unable to find
a complete copy of his original talk.

Hope that helps
Charles for California


- - - - - - - -

From: <feelgoodcp@yahoo.com>
(feelgoodcp at yahoo.com)

I am not sure where it is written, but an old
timer's son who had passed, brought me a set of
orange red colored records with the rockhill
label. I understand these were produced in the
early days for new groups to play because they
had no members with sobriety. On those records
I heard the quote above.

Hope that helps

Gary Rohde
Ft Myers Florida

- - - - - - - -

Original message #4108 from:
<rollemupjohnson@yahoo.com>
(rollemupjohnson at yahoo.com)

Asked for the source of this Bill W. quote:

"I want to remind myself and anyone who would
listen that AA is not a personal success story.
It is instead the story of our colossal human
failures...now converted into the happiest kind
of usefulness by that divine alchemy, the living
grace of God"

Thanks,

JKell13@BellSouth.net
(JKell13 at BellSouth.net)

or

RollEmUpJohnson@Yahoo.com
(RollEmUpJohnson at Yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4114 Gary Becktell
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 2/19/2007 10:03:00 PM

Just a note to correct a few of the facts here,
Arthur. I know how concerned you are with
accuracy.

There was concern about the exorbitant cost of
the German Big Book, the equivalent of about
$45 USD. All of the books that "they" published,
(the publishing venture was actually the work
of an AA Group, not just the one man that was
sued), were given away, not one was sold. They
were paid for by contributions of Groups and
individuals.

Later in your mail, you talk about the price
of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the
lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules
of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to
transport Big Books across a border into a
country that holds a license to publish from
AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to
Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS
Big Book is because they cannot legally import
them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still
exorbitant.
G


----- Original Message -----
From: Arthur Sheehan
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:28 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Finland)


Hi Lee

History is supposed to propagate facts not
beliefs. If you would care to review "the other
side" of the German lawsuit story, please refer
to AAHL messages 2860, 2873 and 2907.

Message 2860 contains a General Service Board
report to the 2004 General Service Conference.
It details how from 1993 (and for over a
decade) they tried to get the German AA member
to stop violating German copyright law (he was
actually distributing Big Books in several
countries in several languages).

Message 2873 responds to a criticism posted in
AAHL that echoed the same litany of criticisms
that have been directed at the GSB, AAWS and GSO.

Message 2907 is a detailed analysis of the
German Big Book translation versus the English
counterpart. The most stunning discovery was
how the German AA member, who is portrayed as
some sort of martyr (no pun intended on his
name) had no factual basis for his claims that
the German Big Book translation removed reference
to "God" and "spirituality" from text.

His whole case rested on torturous semantic
hair-splitting of the use of the German words
"geistig" and "seelisch" in the translation
instead of his preferred German word
"spirtuelle."

There is a point of interest regarding the past
$30 Big Book price in Mexico (which today's
Spanish language version costs $6 from AAWS).
The $3.50 price of the 1939 first edition Big
Book would be the equivalent of around $50 in
2006 dollars. It was a very expensive book.

An English language hard cover 4th edition Big
Book today costs $6 from AAWS. That's about 1/8
of what it cost 1i 1939 (disregarding collector's
value of course).

It would be nice to give the GSB, AAWS and GSO
some credit where credit is due.

Cheers
Arthur

(PS haven't posted here in a while - been very,
very busy)

0 -1 0 0
4115 Arthur Sheehan
RE: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 2/20/2007 10:47:00 PM

Hi Gary

I do try to be attentive to accuracy and thorough
research. When I post something it will be on
the basis of independent confirmation by written
source references (at least one - preferably
more than one). That's why the Trustees reports
to the 2004 Conference were cited in my last
posting. Consequently, I think your "corrections"
could do with a bit of correcting in turn.

The German member who was sued may have had
accomplices and allies (such as the Big Book
Study Group) but he was the central player
in the whole sorry episode. He is described in
the Trustees' reports as the operator of a
mail order book business in Germany who
published and distributed several Conference-
approved books and pamphlets, first in Germany
and subsequently, in other countries.

In 1993, he communicated with the GSOs in
Germany and Canada/US that he intended to
publish his German translation of "Alcoholics
Anonymous." It was not framed as a matter of
cost - it was framed as a matter of his
preference for words used in the translation
(which later proved baseless).

From 1993 on he was repeatedly advised that
his actions would/did constitute violations
of legal licensing agreements made by AAWS
who licenses one exclusive licensee per
country.

From 1994-1996, the German member traveled to
Mexico several times, where he met with a
small, but vocal group of AA members who were
challenging licenses to publish approved
translations of AA literature granted to the
General Service Board of AA in Mexico (Central
Mexicana).

In November 1996, he traveled to New York City
and asked to meet with the General Manager of
the GSO. The GM and a Staff member met with him
(and two friends of his from Germany). His
expressed concerns were reported as having to
do with the translation, not the cost, of the
Big Book.

In 1997 he illegally distributed books to
Sweden, Finland and Israel.

The Trustees' report states that by October
1997 he expanded distribution of "free" Big
Books to Russia. Catalogs describing his mail
order book business, and offering "AA
literature" for sale, began appearing in mail
directed to local Russian AA groups.

Perhaps the acceptance of so-called "7th
Traditions contributions" still means that the
books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge,
nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of
skepticism. In any event, I'm not aware of any
financial report ever posted or revealed by
the German member to determine if the venture
was purely altruistic.

In May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas
ruled in favor of AA. The following month the
German member appealed the ruling and extended
the court process for an additional four years.

In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in
Frankfurt decided in favor of AA and ruled
that the German member cease producing/distri-
buting Conference-approved literature in any
language. The Court affirmed the validity of
copyrights held in trust by AAWS and decreed
that the member reimburse AA for legal expenses,
including attorney fees.

Early in 2004, AA offered him an opportunity
to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees
provided he not publish or distribute
Conference-approved literature in any language
or country, now or in the future, and accept
all other stipulations in the Court's order.
He did not respond and AA subsequently asked
that the Court's final order be fulfilled.
I believe it cost the member $27,000 (based
on a Delegate's Conference report).

Now about the price of a Big Book (El Libro
Grande) in Mexico.

I went to the main AA web site in Mexico to
check the cost. Perhaps I'm interpreting things
wrong, but it seems that AA Mexico sells the
Spanish translation of the Big Book for
substantially less than what it costs in the
US. So I don't understand what evidence
produces the assertion that "The price from
the Mexican GSO is still Exorbitant"

The AA Mexico web site quotes a price of $33mn
and $17mn for a hard cover and abridged version
respectively ("mn" = New Mexico Peso - also
"mxn"). I then went to a currency conversion
web site and calculated $33 and $17mn as $3.00
and $1.55 in US dollars.

Gary, I've tried to carefully lay out the
verifiable sources of all the information
posted. I'd be curious to know what your
sources are. I certainly will accept
"corrections" in good faith - provided of
course that they are correct facts and not
just anecdotal contradictions.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Becktell
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany)

Just a note to correct a few of the facts here,
Arthur. I know how concerned you are with
accuracy.

There was concern about the exorbitant cost of
the German Big Book, the equivalent of about
$45 USD. All of the books that "they" published,
(the publishing venture was actually the work
of an AA Group, not just the one man that was
sued), were given away, not one was sold. They
were paid for by contributions of Groups and
individuals.

Later in your mail, you talk about the price
of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the
lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules
of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to
transport Big Books across a border into a
country that holds a license to publish from
AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to
Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS
Big Book is because they cannot legally import
them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still
exorbitant.


G

0 -1 0 0
4116 Clyde G.
Finding quotes in AA Finding quotes in AA 2/21/2007 4:15:00 PM

From the moderator:

When you're trying to find a particular quote
in the Big Book, there are two concordances
to it where you can look up one of the words
in the quotation. Neither concordance is
perfect, but if you use both of them, you
will probably have found all of the instances
of that particular word in the Big Book:

http://www.anonpress.org/bbindex/

http://www.royy.com/concord.html

A searchable text of the first part of the
Big Book is also available online:

http://anonpress.org/bb/

You can look up phrases on this site, in
addition to individual words.

The phrase asked for below ("jails,
institutions and death") is not found in
the first part of the Big Book, according
to this reference source. Or at least
it couldn't find it.

Looking up "jail" however gives us p. 107,
which is probably the original source of
the idea in that phrase.

Looking up "institution" gives us two more
places where that part of the phrase is
discussed: pp. 114, 110

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

- - - - - - - -

A friend in the program asked me where in the
BB was the statement, "jails, institutions
and death" found that I refered to. I had
thought I had read it in the BB but dang if
I can find it. So I decided to ask the group
to either post it or send it to my address:

cloydg449@sbcglobal.net
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95

0 -1 0 0
4117 do_der_weg
Price of a Big Book in German Price of a Big Book in German 2/21/2007 5:53:00 PM

Hi,

Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it
costs currently 15 Euros which would be about
20$ US.

Greetings, Petra

0 -1 0 0
4118 David Jones
Price of a Big Book in the UK Price of a Big Book in the UK 2/22/2007 1:04:00 PM

In the UK they cost £8.20 GBR, which is approx
$16 in US dollars.

Dave

- - - -

Hi,

Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it
costs currently 15 Euros which would be about
20$ US.

Greetings, Petra

0 -1 0 0
4119 David Jones
In the AA Big Book: "jails, institutions, or death" In the AA Big Book: "jails, institutions, or death" 2/22/2007 12:58:00 PM

Possible source for the phrase ‘jails,
institutions, or death’ could be:

“and unless locked up may die or go
permanently insane.” pg 24

“The persistence of this illusion is
astonishing. Many pursue it to the gates
of insanity or death.” pg 30

“innumerable trips to police courts,
sanitariums, hospitals, jails and
asylums.” pg 97

The most likely I would think is:

“Most of us have entered the final stage
with its commitment to health resorts,
sanitariums, hospitals, and jails.
Sometimes there were screaming delirium
and insanity. Death was often near.”
pg 107

God bless

Dave

- - - - - - - -

A friend in the program asked me where in the
BB was the statement, "jails, institutions
and death" found that I refered to. I had
thought I had read it in the BB but dang if
I can find it. So I decided to ask the group
to either post it or send it to my address:

cloydg449@sbcglobal.net
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95

0 -1 0 0
4120 Jon Markle
Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" 2/22/2007 8:05:00 PM

From Jon M. + Floyd J.

- - - -

Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

I believe the phrase "jails, institutions and
death" comes from NA.

For example, one quote, "If you are an addict,
you must first admit that you have a problem
with drugs before any progress can be made
toward recovery. These questions, when honestly
approached, may help to show you how using
drugs has made your life unmanageable. Addiction
is a disease which, without recovery, ends in
jails, institutions, and death."

From the pamphlet, "Am I an Addict?" Revised.
This is NA Fellowship-approved literature.
Copyright © 1983, 1988 by Narcotics Anonymous
World Services, Inc. All rights reserved.

I believe it's in the Basic Text of NA,
however I don't have my copy handy to look
it up to be sure.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

- - - -

From: Azor521@aol.com
(Azor521 at aol.com)

That statement is made in the Narcotics
Anonymous Book, pg. 3, 5th edition.

Also in NA literature as it is in the
statement, "What is an Addict."

Hope that helps.

Floyd J...... Southern California

- - - -

On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Clyde G. wrote:

> A friend in the program asked me where in the
> BB was the statement, "jails, institutions
> and death" found that I refered to. I had
> thought I had read it in the BB but dang if
> I can find it. So I decided to ask the group
> to either post it or send it to my address:
>
> cloydg449@sbcglobal.net
> (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)
>
> Thanks, Clyde G. DOS 01/03/95

0 -1 0 0
4121 tomper87
Finding quotes in Big Book and 12 & 12 Finding quotes in Big Book and 12 & 12 2/22/2007 11:00:00 PM

From tomper99 + Tommy H. (Baton Rouge)

- - - -

From: "tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com>
(tomper99 at yahoo.com)

Another very good concordance for BB and 12x12:

http://www.164andmore.com/index.php

Also available in paperback which I have found to
be very useful when away from the computer.

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

I have yet to find a concordance for A.A.
literature that I like unequivocally. The ones
I like best and get the results from most
readily include the sentence or part of the
sentence in which the word is used. I find
this a whole lot more convenient than a list of
words and the pages on which they are
found.

I own two concordances that list sentences or
partial sentences, the Purple Salamander
Press volume that came out in the '90s and
one for which I got a heads up recently "164
and More" which includes the Big Book and
the 12x12. There may be other concordances
that include sentences but I am unaware of
them. [This has everything to do with me. I
don't pretend to know all about A.A.
Concordances.]
I suspect part of Clyde's problem is the quote
he is searching for may be in a story and
stories for the most part aren't included in
concordances.

My PDA has the Big Book on it, I believe I
bought it from Anonymous Press, and it has
several very nice features which come in
handy as I can unobtrusively use the PDA
during a meeting. For me a disadvantage of
electronic concordances is that one must put
the search info in exactly including
punctuation. The PDA program is nice as it
lists page and paragraph numbers.

I have not yet reached the point where I am
able to pull open my Big Book and go
directly to the word or phrase I'm looking for
so concordances serve a useful function for
me.

Information on "164 and More" is in message
#4055 in the list archives online.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4122 kattacruzin
Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville 2/25/2007 4:21:00 PM

Hello,

I'm doing some research on Marty Mann and
other women of her time. I've read the
Brown & Brown autobiography of her. The
Brown & Brown book talks about Marty
Mann having a relapse during some time
between 1959-64. Her partner Priscilla's
whereabouts during this time are unknown.
An unnamed woman from Bronxville found
Mann alone and relapsed in her NYC
apartment. According to Brown & Brown,
this apparently whisked Mann away to get
help from the relapse. I'm left wondering if
anyone knows who the unnamed woman
from Bronxville is? And did she stay in
touch with Mann after she helped her get
back on the right track?

Also, does anyone know what might have
precipitated Mann's slip? Perhaps her cancer
battles? But also, it seems that perhaps she
and Priscilla were having a hard time in their
relationship at that point--was that in any
way related to the slip (or vice-versa)?

Many thanks for any insights you might
have.

Kate

0 -1 0 0
4123 smithdewan
12 & 12 search engine 12 & 12 search engine 2/23/2007 5:04:00 PM

Is there a search for a word or phrase engine
that covers the 12&12 ?

- - - -

From the moderator:

Another very good concordance
for the Big Book and also for the
TWELVE STEPS & TWELVE TRADITIONS:

http://www.164andmore.com/index.php

- - - -

See Message #4121 from: "tomper87"
<tomper99@yahoo.com>
(tomper99 at yahoo.com)

"tomper87" said: "Also available in paperback
which I have found to be very useful when away
from the computer."

0 -1 0 0
4124 kattacruzin
Re: Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann Wynn Corum (Law) & Marty Mann 2/25/2007 4:25:00 PM

Wynn Corum was an author of the big book story
"Freedom from Bondage." I believe her sobriety
date was late 1940's. She lived in L.A. and was
the step-mother of California writer Carolyn See.

- - - -

From the moderator:

See http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

"Freedom From Bondage"
2nd edition #553, 3rd edition #544,
4th edition #544
Wynn Corum Laws (California)

Look for the story and then click on the
author's name to read the little biography of
Wynn which Nancy Olson wrote.

Also see Message #4099:

Wynn Corum Law's stepdaughter Carolyn See wrote
a book Dreaming: Hard Luck and Good Times in
America, which more or less tells Wynn's story.
I read it a few years ago and don't remember
it mentioning Marty Mann or their knowing each
other personally.

Fiona

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"Sally Brown" rev.sally@worldnet.att.net
(rev.sally at worldnet.att.net)
wrote:
>
> Dave and I didn't come across Wynn Corum's name
> when we were researching the Marty Mann bio, but
> I would guess that both women did know each other.
>
> I would love to know about Wynn.
>
> City? Approximate sobriety date and age?
> Anything of her story? And what is Ann's
> particular interest? Etc?
>
> Thanks, and shalom - Sally
>
> Rev Sally Brown, coauthor with David R Brown:
> "A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady
> of Alcoholics Anonymous"

0 -1 0 0
4125 Mitchell K.
Price of a Big Book in various countries Price of a Big Book in various countries 2/25/2007 5:20:00 PM

For the sake of accuracy It would be beneficial to
hear from people from actual countries who buy big
books in their country to let this group know exactly
how much a big book costs there. We have been told by
a group member that he did the research and utilized
more than one source to get the actual price of books.
Unfortunately, persons from the actual countries who
shelled out money for the books report a different
price than what was reported.

If at all possible, the equivalent in US Dollars would
be helpful as well as the local currency. I personally
trust individual AA members' reporting of the price
they pay rather than the official AAWS approved office
in that country reporting on a price. There appears to
be a discrepancy in actual vs reported prices.


> In the UK they cost £8.20 GBR, which is approx
> $16 in US dollars.
>
> Dave
>
> - - - -
>
> Hi,
>
> Yesterday I bought a German Big Book and it
> costs currently 15 Euros which would be about
> 20$ US.
>
> Greetings, Petra
>

0 -1 0 0
4126 Sally Brown
Re: Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville Marty Mann and the unnamed woman from Bronxville 2/25/2007 7:17:00 PM

In answer to Kate's questions about Marty
Mann's late relapse, I wish Dave and I had
the answers! The original information came
from my first AA sponsor, who had gotten
sober in Bronxville and lived there, very
active in AA, for 10 more years. She was the
one whom the unnamed woman called for
advice about what to do with Marty.
Unfortunately, so much time had passed, and
as the "rescuer" had long since moved away,
my sponsor could no longer recall her name.

While Dave and I were still doing our
research and making inquiries elsewhere, my
sponsor happened to visit Bronxville, and
asked the oldtimers still there if they
remembered the name. They recalled the
event, but again, too many years had
intervened. All anyone vaguely remembered
was that the young woman had moved to
Florida, they thought, not long after.

I've always hoped that that woman, or
someone in Florida who knew her, might
read our biography of Marty Mann, and
contact us.

At first I was a little disdainful that people
wouldn't remember the name of the young
woman, even though nearly 40 years had
transpired. How could anyone forget! Now,
with nearly 30 years of sobriety myself, I
understand. I'm darned if I can recall the
names of people from 10 years ago, who
were in our local AA only a year, then moved
far away with no further contact. Sometimes
I remember the person, and sometimes parts
of their stories. But names?

As we wrote, we could only speculate on the
possible contributing factors to Marty's
relapse. If somebody actually knows any
more of this part of the story, I hope he or
she will contact us.

Finally, our unexpected uncovering of
Marty's relapse was certainly a shock to a
number of persons, especially if they had
known her well and had no idea about it.
Some absolutely refused to believe it, others
were totally surprised yet not surprised. We
might not have included the account if we
hadn't been able to get two strong additional,
independent corroborations.

And good luck, Kate, on your research!
Maybe you'll be the one to solve the mystery
of the "unnamed woman."

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
coauthor with David R. Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ

www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
1470 Sand Hill Road, 309
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net
(rev.sally at att.net)

0 -1 0 0
4127 Mark Everett
Re:Price of a Big Book in various countries Price of a Big Book in various countries 2/26/2007 9:03:00 AM

I agree with Mitchell's request for more
information, and I would add that the reporter
include the source. For instance, I just did
some local searches here in the US and I
found the following prices. This could go
on and on, but, without the seller being
identified, it is a bit difficult to compare
pricing.

The prices I found for our Big Book (new,
not used) this morning on the web and via
current published price lists and they are:

A.A. (both GSO and my local Intergroup Office)
Soft Cover $5.60
Hard Cover $6.00
Hazelden
Soft Cover $10.00
Hard Cover $10.75
Amazon
Soft Cover $10.17
Hard Cover $10.85
Border's
Soft Cover $13.95
Barns & Noble
Soft Cover $14.95
Hard Cover $12.76

I guess the source of my purchase matters,
I have no comment as to the differences, I
just want to point out that there are
differences, and without noting my source,
my information is less than complete.

Mark

0 -1 0 0
4128 Fiona Dodd
Re: Price of a Big Book in various countries Price of a Big Book in various countries 2/26/2007 1:19:00 AM

Ireland, India, Australia, Greece, Canada

IRELAND

From: "Fiona Dodd"
<fionadodd@eircom.net>
(fionadodd at eircom.net)

The cost of a Big Book in Ireland is
(=6.23 which is roughly $8.20.

Regards
Fiona

- - - -

From: gerry donaghy
<frankaaaa2006@yahoo.co.uk>
(frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk)

Although it is 6.20 euros for a big book in
Ireland, some groups charge 8 euros for it.
My opinion and the opinion of many others
is that it should be free as GSO have lots of
funds available, the money they get from
groups.

- - - -

INDIA

From: "Aloke Dutt"
<alokedutt@hotmail.com>
(alokedutt at hotmail.com)

The price of soft cover English Big Book in
India is Rupees 110.00 = 2.4 US Dollars

- - - -

AUSTRALIA

From: "Ollie Olorenshaw"
<ollie_olorenshaw@yahoo.com.au>
(ollie_olorenshaw at yahoo.com.au)

A Big Book in Australia costs $17.60 which
is just under $US 14.00.

- - - -

GREECE

From: "Irene Sekros"
<irene.sekros@gmail.com>
(irene.sekros at gmail.com)

Hello, irene here, an alcoholic from Athens,
Greece.

Here are the prices we ask for the BB:

Euro 10.00 - Hard Cover, English version
(US $13.25)

Euro 9.00 - Soft Cover, English version
(US $11.92)

Euro 5.50 - Pocket Size, English version
(US $7.28)

Euro 10.00 - Soft Cover, Greek version
(US $$13.25)

Warm regards and g24h,
irene

- - - -

CANADA:

From: "silverg1" <silverg1@telus.net>
(silverg1 at telus.net)

In Calgary, Alberta, Canada we pay
C$11.00 (US$9.50) for hard cover 4th
edition Big Book from Central Office.

Gerry S.

- - - -

SOME OTHER NOTES

From: "Dennis M." <bxdennis@verizon.net>
(bxdennis at verizon.net)

It would also be important to know if the
purchase was from a primary GSO source or
some other outlet such as an Intergroup,
Central Office or another Hazelden-type
distributor.

Here in the U.S. additional markups are often
added to the GSO sales price by secondary
distributors.

Dennis M.

- - - -

From: Arkie Koehl <arkie@arkoehl.com>
(arkie at arkoehl.com)

I believe the book came out in 1939 at $3.50.
That equaled $50.69 by 2006.*

In any case, that makes today's editions look
rather reasonable, in any country and any
currency.

Arkie

*I used this consumer price index
calculator, FWIW

0 -1 0 0
4129 Irene Sekros
Price of a Big Book in various countries Price of a Big Book in various countries 2/26/2007 2:08:00 AM

Hello, irene here, an alcoholic from Athens, Greece.

Here are the prices we ask for the BB:
Euro 10.00 - Hard Cover, English version
Euro 9.00 - Soft Cover, English version
Euro 5.50 - Pocket Size, English version
Euro 10.00 - Soft Cover, Greek version.

Warm regards and g24h,
irene
****************************************************

On 2/26/07, Mitchell K. <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> For the sake of accuracy It would be beneficial to
> hear from people from actual countries who buy big
> books in their country to let this group know exactly
> how much a big book costs there...
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4130 desbrittuk
AA history in Great Britain AA history in Great Britain 2/26/2007 8:48:00 PM

I've been knocking around AA in England since
1976. I've seen so many good people come and
go and so many "characters" who have livened
up our meetings over the years. I'm wondering
if there is an archive similar to what you
good folks in America have. Are there any
oldtimers in England reading this who might
know something of our history?

Des B in Kilburn, London.... (First meeting
in the Bull Ring in Birmingham, 1976 and then
First London 1978, York Street clubhouse,
Denver,1979-82 and back to London again.)

0 -1 0 0
4131 Gary Becktell
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 2/25/2007 5:33:00 PM

I don't know where to begin, Arthur. Calling
the members of the man's Home Group
'accomplices' seems a bit inflammatory. They
are fellow members, joined in a 12th Step
activity.

The mail order business was not engaged in the
Big Book give aways. You can refer to the
findings from the German Court in dismissing
the first complaint, the criminal charge.

The 'small but vocal group' you refer to in
Mexico was an entire service structure with
over 2,000 groups, with Districts, Areas,
Delegates and a Conference. The permission
(in Article Two) is given for the Conference
(not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and
only where a General Service Structure exists.
Central Mexicana was not a service structure
but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries
where a General Service Structure exists, the
United States/Canada Conference will delegate
sole right to publish our Conference-approved
Literature to the General Service Board of
that structure."

Your 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' comment
concerning profit is definitely not researched.
Before the civil case there was a criminal case
where the German Court found that there was
indeed no profiting going on.

http://gsowatch.aamo.info/ger/g8.gif

In fact, the books have a disclaimer on them
that states that they are free and should not
be bought or sold.

Further, the financial report you are not aware
of was given to the German court, which is part
of the reason they dismissed the criminal charges.
There is no evidence what-so-ever that there
was anything but an altruistic motive in this
case. As is a tradition in this country, guilt
must be proved, not innocence.

You mentioned that the German member did not
respond to the offer to forego reimbursement,
etc. What you didn't mention was that there
were many stipulations for that to take effect,
not just the one you mentioned. One of the
other stipulations was to reveal the names of
all members of the AABBSG (his Home Group),
breaking the anonymity of all at a public
level. Of course he refused, and started
paying.

I would like to remind everyone that all the
Big Books that were printed in Germany and
Mexico were from the First or Second Editions,
which are both in the Public Domain.

I suspect that is enough for now. I would like
to suggest that anyone even slightly concerned
about these issues read Concept XII, Warranty 5.
In my Service Manual, it suggests that we not
sue anyone, at any time, for any reason.
Further, it says, "Some deviators have suffered
rather severe personal criticism from individual
AA members, and this is to be deplored." This
was written by Bill W. Every piece of evidence
points that this man and his group were
carrying the AA message as best they could.
While one may disagree with their methods,
the hateful attacks seem inappropriate.
Please reread Warranty 5.

G


----- Original Message -----
From: Arthur Sheehan
Subject: Re: The Division of AA in Mexico
(and Germany)


Hi Gary

I do try to be attentive to accuracy and thorough
research. When I post something it will be on
the basis of independent confirmation by written
source references (at least one - preferably
more than one). That's why the Trustees reports
to the 2004 Conference were cited in my last
posting. Consequently, I think your "corrections"
could do with a bit of correcting in turn.

The German member who was sued may have had
accomplices and allies (such as the Big Book
Study Group) but he was the central player
in the whole sorry episode. He is described in
the Trustees' reports as the operator of a
mail order book business in Germany who
published and distributed several Conference-
approved books and pamphlets, first in Germany
and subsequently, in other countries.

In 1993, he communicated with the GSOs in
Germany and Canada/US that he intended to
publish his German translation of "Alcoholics
Anonymous." It was not framed as a matter of
cost - it was framed as a matter of his
preference for words used in the translation
(which later proved baseless).

From 1993 on he was repeatedly advised that
his actions would/did constitute violations
of legal licensing agreements made by AAWS
who licenses one exclusive licensee per
country.

From 1994-1996, the German member traveled to
Mexico several times, where he met with a
small, but vocal group of AA members who were
challenging licenses to publish approved
translations of AA literature granted to the
General Service Board of AA in Mexico (Central
Mexicana).

In November 1996, he traveled to New York City
and asked to meet with the General Manager of
the GSO. The GM and a Staff member met with him
(and two friends of his from Germany). His
expressed concerns were reported as having to
do with the translation, not the cost, of the
Big Book.

In 1997 he illegally distributed books to
Sweden, Finland and Israel.

The Trustees' report states that by October
1997 he expanded distribution of "free" Big
Books to Russia. Catalogs describing his mail
order book business, and offering "AA
literature" for sale, began appearing in mail
directed to local Russian AA groups.

Perhaps the acceptance of so-called "7th
Traditions contributions" still means that the
books were given away free (wink, wink, nudge,
nudge) but I'll take that with a bit of
skepticism. In any event, I'm not aware of any
financial report ever posted or revealed by
the German member to determine if the venture
was purely altruistic.

In May 1999, the German Court of Common Pleas
ruled in favor of AA. The following month the
German member appealed the ruling and extended
the court process for an additional four years.

In October 2003, the Court of Appeals in
Frankfurt decided in favor of AA and ruled
that the German member cease producing/distri-
buting Conference-approved literature in any
language. The Court affirmed the validity of
copyrights held in trust by AAWS and decreed
that the member reimburse AA for legal expenses,
including attorney fees.

Early in 2004, AA offered him an opportunity
to forgo reimbursement of legal costs and fees
provided he not publish or distribute
Conference-approved literature in any language
or country, now or in the future, and accept
all other stipulations in the Court's order.
He did not respond and AA subsequently asked
that the Court's final order be fulfilled.
I believe it cost the member $27,000 (based
on a Delegate's Conference report).

Now about the price of a Big Book (El Libro
Grande) in Mexico.

I went to the main AA web site in Mexico to
check the cost. Perhaps I'm interpreting things
wrong, but it seems that AA Mexico sells the
Spanish translation of the Big Book for
substantially less than what it costs in the
US. So I don't understand what evidence
produces the assertion that "The price from
the Mexican GSO is still Exorbitant"

The AA Mexico web site quotes a price of $33mn
and $17mn for a hard cover and abridged version
respectively ("mn" = New Mexico Peso - also
"mxn"). I then went to a currency conversion
web site and calculated $33 and $17mn as $3.00
and $1.55 in US dollars.

Gary, I've tried to carefully lay out the
verifiable sources of all the information
posted. I'd be curious to know what your
sources are. I certainly will accept
"corrections" in good faith - provided of
course that they are correct facts and not
just anecdotal contradictions.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Becktell
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:03 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany)

Just a note to correct a few of the facts here,
Arthur. I know how concerned you are with
accuracy.

There was concern about the exorbitant cost of
the German Big Book, the equivalent of about
$45 USD. All of the books that "they" published,
(the publishing venture was actually the work
of an AA Group, not just the one man that was
sued), were given away, not one was sold. They
were paid for by contributions of Groups and
individuals.

Later in your mail, you talk about the price
of a Spanish book from AAWS. Because of the
lawsuit in Germany, which relied upon the rules
of the 'Bern Convention', it is now illegal to
transport Big Books across a border into a
country that holds a license to publish from
AAWS. In other words, it doesn't matter to
Groups in Mexico what the price of an AAWS
Big Book is because they cannot legally import
them. The price from the Mexican GSO is still
exorbitant.

G

0 -1 0 0
4132 Lee Nickerson
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 2/23/2007 7:51:00 AM

I thought back then that the outrage was not
over this member's or Group's actions, but the
public lawsuit instigated by AA, which is
expressly verboten by our Traditions, Concepts,
and Co-Founder.

0 -1 0 0
4133 pmds@aol.com
Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, or death" Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, or death" 2/26/2007 2:55:00 AM

"Jails, institutions or death" is part of the
preamble in Narcotics Anonymous meetings.

0 -1 0 0
4134 gerry d
Connor F. Connor F. 2/26/2007 7:30:00 AM

I was looking for a photo of Connor F. and
Bill W.,which I think was taken around the
time Connor F. came to Ireland on a holiday
in 1946, he was persuaded by his wife to start
an AA group in Ireland, when he went to St.
Pat's Hospital to find alcoholics he was told
there were no alkies in that part of Ireland
lol...

But he suceeded in gettin it going and today
we have hundreds of groups here.

....btw the 50th All Ireland Convention is
coming up in April, for full details visit
our website

>>>>http://www.tallaghtbigbook.com<<<<

If anyone has a pic or any pics from around
that time I would be very gratefull for some

>>>my em is>>>>frankaaaa2006@yahoo.co.uk

(frankaaaa2006 at yahoo.co.uk)

0 -1 0 0
4135 ~ the >i
Re: Finding quotes in Big Book Finding quotes in Big Book 2/25/2007 8:22:00 PM

JFYI,

there are a host of resources to search the
big book on-line.

None of which I have encountered that are
"official" ... nevertheless, viable adjuncts
to finding quotes when needed.

(The concordance for the 12x12 mentioned
earlier, is the only one I've seen.)

For the "big book" ...

Here is one:

http://www.whytehouse.com/big_book_search/

__________________________________

an additional link of study:

http://www.sober.org/

an audio version:
http://www.aarootsrevival.com/Big-Book-Study.htm

and a format for the fourth that is very
organized and true to the book (a great
print out!):

http://www.recovery.org/aa/PDF/step4.pdf


All these links I highly recommend to
serious study.

Janet P.
emeritus archivist

0 -1 0 0
4136 Henrik Rue
Price of a Big Book in Denmark Price of a Big Book in Denmark 2/27/2007 4:03:00 PM

Hi all,

The price in Denmark is 190 Danish Kroner
~ $33 for a hardcover copy in Danish
and 120 Danish kroner ~ $21 in English

And 165 Danish kroner ~ $28
for a soft cover copy in Danish
and 100 Danish kroner ~ $17 in English

In love and service

Henrik Rue

E-mail : henrik.rue@edb.dk
(henrik.rue at edb.dk)

Homepage: http://www.12stepping.dk

0 -1 0 0
4137 John Lee
Re: Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" Not AA but NA: "jails, institutions, and death" 2/25/2007 5:24:00 PM

Dozens of times I've heard people at AA
meetings say, "It's in the Big Book" , and
then go on to quote from the NA Basic Text.

"More will be revealed" is commonly heard,
and the ubiquitious, "people, places and
things." The latter is a segment of the
"Second Interesting Proposal", found after
the NA Steps.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

0 -1 0 0
4138 chesbayman56
Significant March Dates in A.A. History Significant March Dates in A.A. History 2/28/2007 8:03:00 PM

March 1936 - AA had 10 members staying sober. At end of 1936 A.A. had
15 members.
March-May 1938 - Bill begins writing the book Alcoholics Anonymous.
Works Publishing Inc established to support writing and printing of
the book.
March 1940 - Mort J. came to LA from Denver; started custom of
reading Chapter 5 Big Book at Cecil group.
March 1941 - Second printing of Big Book.
March 1941 - 1st Prison AA Group formed at San Quentin.
March 1946 - The March of Time film is produced by NY AA office.
March 1949 - Dr. Bob considers idea of AA conference premature.
March 1951 - American Weekly publishes memorial article for Dr. Bob.
March 1, 1939 - Readers Digest fails to write article on AA.
March 1, 1941 - Jack Alexander's Saturday Evening Post article
published and membership jumped from 2,000 to 8,000 by years end.
March 3 1947 - Nell Wing started work at Alcoholic Foundation 415
Lexington Avenue.
March 4, 1891 - Lois W is born.
March 5, 1945 - Time Magazine reports Detroit radio broadcasts of AA
members.
March 7, 1940 -- Bill and Lois visited the Philadelphia AA group.
March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted
to get well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury
St., at 8 PM Wednesdays.
March 9, 1941 - Wichita Beacon reports AA member from NY who wants to
form a group in Wichita.
March 10, 1944 - New York Intergroup was established.
March 11, 1949 - The Calix Society, an association of Roman Catholic
alcoholics who are maintaining their sobriety through participation
in Alcoholics Anonymous, was formed in Minneapolis by five Catholic
AA members.
March 14, - South Orange, NJ, AA group held an anniversary dinner
with Bill W as guest speaker
March 15, 1941 - 1st AA group formed in New Haven, Connecticut. Not
reported in paper until Oct 1, 1941.
March 16, 1940 - Alcoholic Foundation & Works Publishing move from
Newark to 30 Vesey St in lower Manhattan. First headquarters of our
own.
March 21, 1881 - Anne R, Dr Bobs wife, is born.
March 21 1966 - Ebby dies.
March 22, 1951 - Dr William Duncan Silkworth dies at Towns Hospital.
March 22, 1984 - Clarence S, "Home Brewmeister", dies.
March 23, 1936 - Bill & Lois visit Fitz M, "Our Southern Friend", in
Maryland.
March 25, 1898 -- Jim B ("The Vicious Cycle") was born.
March 29, 1943 -- The Charleston Mail, WV, reported on Bill W's talk
at St. John's Parish House.
March 31, 1947 - 1st AA group formed in London, England.

0 -1 0 0
4139 Terry Smith
Percentage women in AA worldwide? Percentage women in AA worldwide? 3/1/2007 1:54:00 PM

Hello Everyone

My name is Terry and I'm an Alcoholic. I have
just taken on the commitment of History
Secretary at The Barking Big Book Study --
The Way Out.

What is the percentage of women today within
AA worldwide?


I would be grateful for any information or
guidance.

Many thanks and God bless

regards

Terry

0 -1 0 0
4140 Paul S.
Price of a Big Book in Finland Price of a Big Book in Finland 2/28/2007 12:04:00 PM

Hi there (over there)

Today I was visting our Local Service Office
(perhaps you could call it intergroup).

Prices:

Big Book in Finnish language 10 euros (13.35 USD,
I presume)

Pocket version (Finnish) 8 euros

Big Book in English language 14 euros

If you post-order them you have to pay the cost.

(My homegroup buys them and usually gives
them for free to newcomers after their first
or second meeting a little depending on the
circumstances.)

All the best

Paul S. aka soberfinn
Helsinki, Finland

0 -1 0 0
4141 jenny andrews
RE: AA history in Great Britain AA history in Great Britain 2/28/2007 5:35:00 AM

Share magazine - the British counterpart of
Grapevine - has produced a book called Share
and Share Alike to mark the 60th anniversary
of AA's foundation in Britain (England,
Scotland and Wales) on 31 March 1947. It
contains stories from each of the past six
decades of Share and its predecessor the AA
Newsletter. The book also includes information
about the British Fellowship's history. The
price is £4.75 sterling (inc p+p), checks
etc. payable to 'General Service Office'.

Send orders to:

Share and Share Alike,
PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green,
York YO1 7NJ UK.

Laurie A.,
Editor, Share

0 -1 0 0
4142 Soberholic
The Division of AA in FINLAND The Division of AA in FINLAND 2/28/2007 12:45:00 AM

Gary Becktell <gk@kitcarson.net> wrote:

"The permission
(in Article Two) is given for the Conference
(not AAWS) to grant the right to publish, and
only where a General Service Structure exists.
Central Mexicana was not a service structure
but just a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries
where a General Service Structure exists, the
United States/Canada Conference will delegate
sole right to publish our Conference-approved
Literature to the General Service Board of
that structure."

This is not the case in Finland. Our General
Service Structure was founded in 1998 - a year
after the coup d'état performed by an organized
group of loud and violent A.A. members in the
annual meeting of Finnish A.A. in February 1997.
Some 15-20 % of the groups decided not to accept
all that happened and especially the false report
of the event that was given to members. The rest
of the groups swallowed the report reluctantly
but time has done its work and the report has
become "the official truth"

The older structure that resembles more a
labor union than A.A. structure has still
the rights to publish literature.

http://www2.stakes.fi/nat/pdf/04/NAT304.pdf :

A. Leppo:
Grassroot democracy in an organized
organization. Direct and representative
democracy in the Finnish AA-movement

AIM
Alcoholics Anonymous’s non-hierarchical and
nonbureaucratic organisation structure and its
ability to maintain its unity is unique.

AA has a “formal” level of decision-making –
the AA service structure. The main activity
for most members, however, is the grass-root
activity in individual AA groups. There are
certain tensions between these two. This case
study analyses a conflict around the movement’s
decision making structure in Finland in the
late 1990’s. The disagreements led eventually
to the founding of a new AA service structure
which led in fact to 2 parallel service
structures. The study also looks at the
consequences the conflict had on the Finnish
AA movement and its vitality.

DATA
The data is qualitative and consists primarily
of taped interviews with 26 AA members. In
addition, textual material written by AA
members was analysed.

RESULTS
The analysis of the interviewees’ accounts
revealed that the conflict was rooted in the
movement’s concrete decision-making practices
as well as collective identities entwined
with the members’ social position. The grass-
root activity of AA groups remained active
despite the disputes on the movement’s
organisational level and a majority of the
members remained uninterested in the dispute.
The conflict did, however, affect the movement’s
ability to hold on to old members and attract
new ones. Furthermore, it caused hurtful
feelings to many and questioned the members’
feeling of belonging together.

CONCLUSION
It is suggested that the fact that the
conflict resulted in the founding of a new AA
service structure – instead of for example
further specialisation on the group level –
reflects the Finnish society and its
organisational traditions.

0 -1 0 0
4143 JOHN e REID
Father Dunlea articles (2) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 Father Dunlea articles (2) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM

A series of articles by Father Thomas V.
Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946,
Number 2.

PLEA FOR IRISH BRANCH OF
SOCIETY TO AID ALCOHOLICS

Dublin Evening Mail
Saturday, October 4, 1946

The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous, to
which he belonged, would very much like
to see a branch opened up in this country,
said the Rev. Thomas V. Dunlea, parish
priest of Sutherland, near Sydney, Australia,
in an interview with an Evening Mail
representative in which he described the work
being done in his parish to help alcoholics.

A native of Tipperary, Father Dunlea is
founder and director of Australia's Boys
Town and is touring America, Canada and
Ireland to learn all he can of the social work
being done in those countries.

Though our representative tried to draw
Father Dunlea out he refused to criticise any
aspect of Irish social work, holding that it is
not for him to criticise or hurt anyone's
feelings.

HOW THE SOCIETY BEGAN

The Society was started in America in 1934
by two addicts who formed a club for their
fellow suffers. For the first year there were
three members and in the second year they
had five.

In the succeeding years they recruited their
members successfully that today there are
more than 50,000 addicts formed into loosely
knit societies or clubs in America, New
Zealand, Australia and England.

In October, 1944, when Boy's Town was just
three years old, Father Dunlea found time to
found a branch of the Society in Sydney with
Dr. Minogue, a famous Australian
psychiatrist, and Mr. A. McKinnon a
Scottish officer of a Sydney mental home.

A remarkable point about the two Homes
which Sydney now posses is the fact that
people who work among addicts and seek to
cure them of their complaint are fellow
suffers who have benefited from the Homes.

In the words of Father Dunlea "The Society
believes that only an alcoholic can cure an
alcoholic, as it is only a fellow suffer who
can open a line of transmission to the heart of
the patient."

The different clubs or societies as they are
usually called come together to discuss each
other's problems.

The only qualification for membership is a
sincere desire on the part of the alcoholic to
abstain from drinking. These clubs are purely
convalescent homes and not institutions
where members can stay indefinitely.

Once they show signs of recovery and the
drinking has been arrested they are sent back
to their old jobs. If they should fall back into
their old ways again one of the workers goes
out and bring them back -- or if they are very
bad to send them to hospital.

There are no hard and fast rules in the clubs
and no president or committee to run things.

POLITICS TABOO

The members live together, doing more or
less as they please, while the workers, who
can speak from experience, gradually talk
them out of the highly strained and nervous
condition to which they become prone. No
temperance advocates are admitted to the
clubs nor what are known as controlled
drinkers.

Ministers of religion, doctors and social
workers can all help, but like all other
non-alcoholics, they must keep severely to
their own duties and never mention the
subject of drink.

Any subject which might upset the
convalescent peace of mind, such as that of
politics, is carefully kept out of the
conversation.

WOMEN VICTIMS

The sufferers are taken from mental homes,
jails, and street corners and usually kept in
the clubs for two or three weeks. The first
man with whom Father Dunlea came in
contact had been in a mental home eight
times.

He said that alcohol addicts were usually
clever people in professional occupations
which called for a creative mind.

Quite a number of women were included
among them. The war had been a great
factor in increasing the number of alcoholics
in the world, while a shortage of liquor had
worsened the condition of those who had
already been sufferers.

NATIONAL PROBLEM

Father Dunlea said that in the history of the
world there was probably never such a great
a amount of alcoholism as existed today.

It presented a national problem, and he
considered the movement that had started
in Australia as proverbially timely.

In America a clinic to deal with the subject
had been established by Yale University, and
a wealthy personage had endowed a
campaign to educate the public in the
disease.

Alcoholism, he said, was one of the four
main health problems facing the world
today, taking its place with T.B., cancer, and
V.D. and it was one that the average person
knew practically nothing.

DRY HORRORS

There were two characteristics to be found in
nearly all alcoholics. They were hyper-
sensitivity and ego-centricity. When an
inebriate first tried to give up the use of
intoxicants he passed through what were
known as "dry horrors". His mind became
increasingly a prey to anxious thoughts and
even delusions and obsessions.

Those could be relieved altogether by two or
three strong doses of alcohol. But the
inebriate could not stop once he had felt the
effect of these doses and became a helpless
slave, going on and on until he found himself
under restraint.

A person usually took a drink to that extent
to get away from some wrong which was
troubling him.

VERY SENSITIVE

They became very sensitive and had to be
treated very carefully.

To them a non-alcoholic was like a back seat
driver who did nothing but state the obvious
to the driver.

They were sick people and had to be treated
as such. So the Society concentrated on that
and made no criticism of the amount of drink
taken by people and made no effort to close
public houses.

All the workers kept their names secret from
the public, hence their title-Alcoholics
Anonymous.

A great spirit of friendship was engendered
among all the members and workers and
the Society could claim to be one of the few
on earth, if not the only one, in which God
could be discussed by Jews, Protestants and
Catholics in a manner which hurt no one's
feelings.

END OF TRANSCRIPT OF Article No 2.

0 -1 0 0
4144 JOHN e REID
Father Dunlea articles (1) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 Father Dunlea articles (1) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 3/1/2007 8:48:00 PM

A series of articles by Father Thomas V. Dunlea
in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946.

- - - -

Background: AA goes international, from
Australia to Ireland.

Australia October 1944 -- first non-American
AA branch started in Sydney, Australia by
Father Thomas V. Dunlea and Rex (see AAHL
Message 3746).

Ireland November 1946 -- then Ireland via
Father Tom from down under and Conor F.

Conor F. was "persuaded" by his wife after
reading articles in the Dublin Evening Mail
(October 1946) written by Father Thomas V.
Dunlea, a Roman Catholic priest from Australia
who was visiting Ireland (where he had
originally been born, in Tipperary).

Notes by John R.

(1) As per all possibilities with the outside
media reporting about A.A. there could be
some journalistic licence taken in the articles
about and following on from Fr. Tom D., in
accuracies in numbers, terminology used, etc.
It is more to do with history time lines than
critique of the wording and interpretations
of the 1940's in Ireland and it was well
before the advent of the Traditions. However
one can see the simplicity of the "Preamble."

(2) Errors could occur in my re-print, in that
the copies of the newspapers I have a very
blurred.

- - - -

Fr. Tom Dunlea article (1) Dublin Evening Mail,
Friday, October 4, 1946

A brief extract only from this first article.

AN AUSTRALIAN BOYS' TOWN

Visiting Clergyman Impressed
By Work Of Mount St. Club.

Rev. Thomas V. Dunlea, Tipperary-born Parish
Priest of Sutherland near Sydney, Australia.

He is the founder and director of Australian
Boys' Town, the only equivalent in the world
to Father Flanagan's institution in America.
He is also a co-founder of a branch of the
Alcoholics Anonymous Society in Sydney, which
was formed to help suffers from alcoholism
to overcome this weakness and return to work.

0 -1 0 0
4145 JOHN e REID
Father Dunlea articles (3) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 Father Dunlea articles (3) Dublin Evening Mail 1946 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM

A series of articles by Father Thomas V.
Dunlea in the Dublin Evening Mail in 1946,
article number 3.

TO HELP SUFFERERS FROM ALCOHOLISM

Dublin Evening Mail
Friday, November 1, 1946

An effort is to be made in Dublin to help the
sufferers from alcoholism to overcome the
obsession which compels them to drink
against their will.

The method to be used is known as
Alcoholics Anonymous, about which little
was known in this country until the recent
visit here by of Father Dunlea, an Associate
member of the organisation in Sydney,
Australia who outlined the scheme to the
Evening Post on Oct, 5th. Since then a
member of the Society in Philadelphia,
U.S.A. has arrived on a visit and yesterday
told an Evening Mail reporter of the great
success which it has achieved in America and
of what it has meant to him personally. Born
in Roscommon, he emigrated to America 17
years ago.

[This was Conor Flynn. See AAHistory
Lovers Message 3623, where Nancy Olson
tells the whole story.]

ON DRINKING BOUTS

For the first seven years of his life in
America he drank practically no alcohol, but
after two years of social drinking he
suddenly went on a two day drinking bout.
Immediately after this he took a pledge for
one year. After one year of sobriety he felt
that he could safely drink normally again
only to find that after a few short weeks of
social drinking he was out on a four-day
drinking bout. The next two years of his life
were spent in periodic drinking bouts during
which time the periods of sobriety gradually
became shorter and less frequent.

During this time h visited many sanatoria and
hospitals and had the attention of the best
doctors and psychiatrists, only to find that
very little could be done to control his
drinking. All this time he had been a
successful business man with a nice home
and was happily married. He could find no
reason for his abnormal drinking.

LOST THE DESIRE

While in one of the hospitals he was
contacted by a member of Alcoholics
Anonymous. He had no reason to believe the
Society could keep him sober, but as he has
tried everything else without success and had
an had an honesty desire for sobriety he
decided to give it a trial. After joining the
organisation he was amazed to find that it
was composed of happy members who had
been many years sober and had rid
themselves of their alcoholic obsession.

After 3 1/2 years in A.A. he found he no
longer had any desire to drink an now
states that if he had the choice between
drinking normally again and his present
existence he would prefer sobriety and the
association of A.A.

All that is necessary to become a member is
a sincere desire to stop drinking. No charge
is made for joining the Society, and there are
no paid workers, everything being done by
the members, who look upon it as an
avocation.

The Society does not cater for controlled
drinkers, its only aim being to help those who
have an obsession for drink.

Full information will be given freely to those
who apply through the box number at the end
of this article. It is the hope of this gentleman
that by December nucleus of workers will
have been formed here to carry on the good
work. True to the name of the Society he
desires to remain anonymous.

Will those interested write for free
information to Box D554.

END OF TRANSCRIPT OF Article No. 3

0 -1 0 0
4146 JOHN e REID
Dublin Evening Mail articles (4) Dublin Evening Mail articles (4) 3/1/2007 8:49:00 PM

Article number 4: report on the actual start
of A.A. in Ireland, follow-up on the Father
Thomas V. Dunlea articles.

ALCOHOLICS FORM NEW BODY

Dublin Evening Mail
Saturday, November 23, 1946

The Alcoholics Anonymous Association,
formed to help sufferers from the dreaded
disease of alcoholism, has recently
established a small group in Dublin.

Several private meetings have already been
held as a result of which those who attended
have derived considerable benefit and have
become convinced that they have not been
able to find any other way.

The first public meeting of the Association
will be held on Monday at 7:45 p.m., in the
Country Shop, St. Stephen's Green, Dublin.
Three of the speakers will be alcoholics and
members of the Dublin group.

DOCTOR TO SPEAK

In addition, a doctor who is one of Dublin's
leading psychiatrists and who has made a
deep study of alcoholism, will give the
meeting the benefit of his professional
knowledge on this important subject.

True to the name of the Society all will
remain anonymous. It is hoped that all who
have a sincere desire to stop drinking and to
lead a normal, useful life will take this
opportunity of learning what the Association
offers as a constructive policy of recovery.

It is also hoped that any who are interested
directly attend with the object of hearing
what the Association has done and is daily
doing for alcoholics.

0 -1 0 0
4147 spebsqsa@att.net
Re: Percentage women in AA worldwide? Percentage women in AA worldwide? 3/1/2007 4:41:00 PM

The percentage of women in A.A. in the
United States and Canada according to
the Triennial Surveys of Members was:

1968 22%
1971 25%
1974 25%
1977 33%
1980 33%
1983 33%
1986 34%
1989 35%
2001 33%
2004 35%

Some years the pamphlet gave it as a
percentage. Other years it was stated
as "one in four" or "one in three."

0 -1 0 0
4148 Arthur S
RE: Percentage women in AA worldwide? Percentage women in AA worldwide? 3/2/2007 9:07:00 AM

Hi Terry

Check the link http://aa.org/en_media_resources.cfm?PageID=75

Or go to AA.org, click on Media Resources then
click on AA Membership Survey then click on
the image to read a PDF file of the 2004
membership survey.

The 2004 Membership Survey cites an estimate
of %36 for women in the US/Canada. I don't
know how well that percentage projects
worldwide.

The next survey is due to be conducted this year.

Arthur

0 -1 0 0
4149 spebsqsa@att.net
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico The Division of AA in Mexico 3/2/2007 9:54:00 PM

Didn't the split of A.A. in Mexico have
something to do with social class?
Maybe I missed it but I don't recall
seeing that mentioned in this topic.

0 -1 0 0
4150 Arthur S
Re: The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) The Division of AA in Mexico (and Germany) 3/2/2007 11:15:00 PM

To Gary B and Lee N -
this is a very long reply

The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are
historic AA milestones whether or not they
are viewed as infamous. Their history should
be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both
supporters and critics. Many AA members
have staked out a position, some with
reasoned argument and others with vitriol.

The Traditions and Concepts are often cited
as inviolable and near scriptural
commandments that predetermine what the
conduct of those who brought the lawsuit
should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely
directed at the German member who was
found guilty of breaking the law. He is
typically portrayed as a noble victim
absolved of his legal infractions because he
wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who
stopped him from breaking the law are
typically portrayed as villains having "hateful
intentions."

While it may be hard for some AA members
to swallow, bodies of codified principles
exist that take precedence over the Steps,
Traditions and Concepts. They consist of
state and national laws and treaties having
the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor
Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step
activities" provide a refuge of extralegal
privilege to evade the law and the resulting
consequences of its infraction.

When AA members are involved in 12th Step
calls, it does not grant them extralegal
privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore
red lights on the way to carry AA's message.
Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with
a Big Book translation, it does not endow
them with extralegal privilege to print their

own preferred version in violation of
copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th
Step activity."

Events leading up to the German lawsuit
were premised on claims that the translation
of the German Big Book lacked words
denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted
words denoting "psychological" and
"intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The
website that supported the German member
carried the following statements:

----------
"A scientific research revaled [sic]
differences between BBSG and German GSO
versions of the big book.

BBSG translated the multilith manuscript,
because we were sure there were no
restrictions by any copyright protection on it.
German GSO sold a translation of 1983
based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this
had many mistakes. For example: The 11
chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108
times in the multilith manuscript and 106
times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of
1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight
times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it
was mostly replaced by "seelisch --
psychological" and/or by "geistig --
intellectual". This, among other faults,
diluted the spiritual foundations of our
recovery program and resulted in an
extremely high relapse rate of more than
95% among German AA members. We felt
obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation
of [sic] has the correct German word
"spirituell". There is more background
information available at [.]"
----------

The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and
unsubstantiated (but often repeated these
days in AA as part of various agendas). That
piece of fiction stems from the
misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989
GSO report on preceding AA membership
surveys.

Attempting to link bogus Big Book
translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus
95% relapse rate as cause and effect is
beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators
were motivated by "anti-spiritual
resentments" illustrates the disparaging
hyperbole that has permeated and polluted
commentary on the matter from its onset.

The BBSG research was anything but
"scientific." In their web site statement
the German word "giestig" was defined to
only mean "intellectual." It has several
meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The
word "seelisch" (derived from the German
word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only
mean "psychological" when it too has several
meanings one of which is also "spiritual."
The German member asserted that the word
"spirituell" should have been used to denote
the English word "spiritual." That's how the
whole episode started. It was all a matter of
semantic preference.

Two Word documents were available that
purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in
the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book
translations. After personally examining both
of them line by line it was plainly evident
that claims of translation shortcomings were
disingenuous and far more delusional than
definitive.

The Big Book copyright has expired only in
the US and is still in force outside the US
through international treaty agreements.

In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on
Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized
that a public lawsuit is a public controversy,
something in which our Tradition says we
may not engage." His statement was in
reference to a matter in the early 1950s of
whether AA should petition Congress for
congressional incorporation of the name
"Alcoholics Anonymous."

The Conference decision was "no" but
matters changed over time and the name
"Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were
legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's
statement about lawsuits is not frozen in
perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached
the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and
Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His
Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early
1950s and his Concepts essays from the
early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate
such things as the world-wide internet,
desk-top publishing, digitization and the
international explosion of treaties and laws
protecting intellectual property rights.

From the material I've collected over the past
years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack
of balance and civil discussion in presenting
both sides of the issue. The greatest part of
the internet data consists of rather harsh
accusations against the Board, AAWS and
GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy
out of the episode or having little better to do
than seek out errant AA members to punish
them.

Something that is not well known in regard to
lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995
Conferences. The 1993 case involved the
circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped
and so were some recommendations of a
special ad hoc committee formed the prior
year to address the matter. The ad hoc

committee's recommendation that "The
Conference find that the initiation of
litigation involving trademarks and service
marks is a violation of Warranty Five"
wound up as "not considered" in the
Conference proceedings.

The 1995 Conference concerned both the
situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit.
The 1995 Conference voted not to consider
several proposed floor actions in the
Conference proceedings. Among them:

Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New
Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the
General Service Board of Alcoholics
Anonymous meet with representatives of the
two service structures in Mexico (Central
and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if
needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring
to the 1996 Conference recommendations
which would preclude reoccurrence of this
type of conflict in any other
situation/country."

Not considered: "Seccion Mexico has sent
three letters to our General Service
Conference asking the Conference to review
their petitions of grievance, which is their
right under Concept V of World Service. To
fulfill our spiritual responsibility I propose
the following motion: "That this Conference
review and discuss these petitions and
forward a response to Seccion Mexico."

Not considered: "The Conference
recommends that the General Service Board
and its subsidiary boards, AA World
Services Inc and AA Grapevine Inc initiate
no litigation in defense of copyrights and
trademarks, in accordance with Tradition 10
and Warranty 5."

While the 1995 Conference did not vote to
approve lawsuits it did vote to decline to
consider them.

Gary, I've taken the time to respond to your
individual points below and that will be the
end of my participation in the exchange.
Your points are denoted with "(GB)" and my
response to them with "(AS)."

------------------------------------------------
(GB): I don't know where to begin, Arthur.
Calling the members of the man's Home
Group 'accomplices' seems a bit
inflammatory. They are fellow members,
joined in a 12th Step activity. The mail order
business was not engaged in the Big Book
give aways. You can refer to the findings
from the German Court in dismissing the
first complaint, the criminal charge.

(AS): The trustees' 2004 Conference report
states that the involvement of the mail order
business was a documented fact in the
distribution of the book in Russia through
catalogs that the business mailed to Russian
groups.

AABBSG assisted and financially supported
the German member's efforts. His actions
were found to be illegal by a German court
of law and its verdict was sustained on
appeal. An accomplice is someone who helps
somebody do something illegal. Labeling
their actions as being "joined in a 12th Step
activity" fails to distinguish between the
stated nobility of intentions and the de facto
illegitimacy of actions. One can carry AA's
message without breaking the law. And as
noted earlier there was no compelling reason
to publish the illegal book in the first place.

------------------------------------------------
(GB): The 'small but vocal group' you refer
to in Mexico was an entire service structure
with over 2,000 groups, with Districts,
Areas, Delegates and a Conference.

(AS): The 2004 Conference report mentions
a meeting between the German member and a
"small but vocal group" of Mexican
members. It was not a description of the size
of Section Mexico. The German member and
some "accomplices" published "El Libro
Azul" (an illegal Spanish language knock-off
of the Big Book).

------------------------------------------------
(GB): The permission (in Article Two) is
given for the Conference (not AAWS)
to grant the right to publish, and only where
a General Service Structure exists. Central
Mexicana was not a service structure but just
a GSO. From Article Two: "In countries
where a General Service Structure exists, the
United States/Canada Conference will
delegate sole right to publish our
Conference-approved Literature to the
General Service Board of that structure."

(AS): Your legalistic interpretation is
semantically and substantively incorrect.
AAWS and GSO are both part of a "service
structure" or "Conference" (re the service
Manual footnotes for the Original Permanent
Conference Charter). In 1979 the term
"Conference" was defined to consist of
"the Delegates, the Trustees, the General
Service Board, the directors of AAWS and
AA Grapevine and staff members of the
Grapevine and GSO." They are all voting
participants in the "Conference" of the US
and Canada.

Also reference the footnote for the Current
Conference Charter which states "The word
'Conference' as used in paragraph 2 of the
'Current Conference Charter' appears to be
synonymous with 'General Service
Conference' or 'General Service Structure' in
its application to national AA entities outside
of the US/Canada; and, while the 'Charter'
may provide guidance to other GSOs they
are still autonomous, and not bound by its
mandates, except where the law might
require it (e.g. copyright law)."

Each country can autonomously define its
own service structure which does not have to
be a replica of the US/Canada structure.
Section Mexico broke away from Central
Mexico who was recognized as the exclusive
"service structure" for publication licensing.
AAWS legitimately acted in its long-
standing, and well-established, role of
managing copyrights, reprint permissions
and publication licenses for Conference-
approved literature. Central Mexico qualified
as a licensee and a General Service structure.
------------------------------------------------

(GB): Your 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge'
comment concerning profit is definitely not
researched. Before the civil case there was a
criminal case where the German Court found
that there was indeed no profiting going on.

[reference to] http://gsowatch.aamo.info/ger/g8.gif.

In fact, the books have a disclaimer on them
that states that they are free and should not
be bought or sold. Further, the financial
report you are not aware of was given to the
German court, which is part of the reason
they dismissed the criminal charges. There is
no evidence what-so-ever that there was
anything but an altruistic motive in this case.
As is a tradition in this country, guilt must be
proved, not innocence.

(AS): My comment was "Perhaps the
acceptance of so-called '7th Traditions

contributions' still means that the books were
given away free (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
but I'll take that with a bit of skepticism."
The word "profit" was not mentioned. The
outside cover of the illegal publication states
that it is for free and its inside cover states
that AABBSG will accept "7th Tradition
donations." That's what I was commenting
on. I made no mention of criminal charges. In
terms of the German court, it might be far
more instructive to dwell on what they did do
rather than on what they didn't do. The
German member's guilt was proven in that
court and upheld on appeal.
------------------------------------------------

(GB): You mentioned that the German
member did not respond to the offer to forego
reimbursement, etc. What you didn't mention
was that there were many stipulations for
that to take effect, not just the one you
mentioned. One of the other stipulations was
to reveal the names of all members of the
AABBSG (his Home Group), breaking the
anonymity of all at a public level. Of course
he refused, and started paying.

I would like to remind everyone that all the
Big Books that were printed in Germany and
Mexico were from the First or Second
Editions, which are both in the Public
Domain.

(AS): The Steps, Traditions and Concepts
are not conveniences to take refuge behind to
avoid the consequences of breaking the law.
According to the German member, the
translators had it wrong, two Boards had it
wrong, AAWS had it wrong and several
GSOs had it wrong but he had it right. I'd
suggest that the numbers do not work
convincingly in his favor.

As mentioned earlier, the Big Book copyright
has lapsed only in the US. It is still valid
outside the US by international treaty
agreements. It is not in the public domain of
the signatory countries nor is anyone legally
permitted to print the book in the US and
ship it overseas to a signatory country. As
difficult as may be for some to acknowledge,
AA members are obligated to comply with
law the same as everyone else on this planet
otherwise consequences ensue that are not
waived based on AA membership.
------------------------------------------------

(GB): I suspect that is enough for now. I
would like to suggest that anyone even
slightly concerned about these issues read
Concept XII, Warranty 5. In my Service
Manual, it suggests that we not sue anyone,
at any time, for any reason. Further, it says,
"Some deviators have suffered rather severe
personal criticism from individual AA
members, and this is to be deplored." This
was written by Bill W. Every piece of
evidence points that this man and his group
were carrying the AA message as best they
could. While one may disagree with their
methods, the hateful attacks seem
inappropriate. Please reread Warranty 5.

(AS): As stated earlier the Concepts are not
laws or commandments and matters change
over time (not to everyone's satisfaction).
Your "Some deviators" citation would be
more instructive by including the sentences
that follow it:

"Some deviators have suffered rather severe
personal criticism from individual A.A.
members, and this is to be deplored.
However this is no reason for us to stop
reminding all concerned of the undesirability
of breaking A.A.'s Traditions before the
entire public. It can be said in all fairness
that the difficulties of those who contravene
the Traditions are chiefly troubles of their
own making."

I'd suggest that the German member's
troubles were of his own making and that the
evidence demonstrated that he was breaking
the law. He certainly had a role in fomenting
public controversy in several countries and
doing harm to AA as a whole with rather
inflammatory content and commentary over
the internet. Claims of "carrying AA's
message as best they could" seem to fall
more into the category of "alibi" rather than
exoneration.

The AA service entities that brought the
lawsuit have also had their staff members
subjected to broad-brush severe personal
criticism whether or not the staff member had
any role at all in the lawsuit. Claiming that
they engaged in "hateful attacks" is neither
demonstrated nor warranted. It falls into the
same hyperbole of claiming that the German
translators were motivated by "anti-spiritual
resentments." It's far more a product of
negative imagination rather than objective
investigation. The critics of the German law
suit seem to have little tolerance and much
scorn of an opposing viewpoint.

AA's message can be carried without
breaking the law. It's that simple.

Finally, the only hateful attacks I've
witnessed (and there is audit trail archive of
it going back for years) have emanated from
the web site you use as a reference.

You are part of that group. Over the past
several years:

Has that group done any harm to AA as a
whole by continually claiming that the AA
service entities that brought the lawsuit did
so as a hateful attack rather than on the
reasons they explained to the General Service
Conferences?

Has that group done any harm to AA as a
whole where, to this day, just about any
action of the part of those service entities is
still subject to international public ridicule
and condemnation (over the world-wide
internet)?

Has that group engaged in public controversy
by inciting AA members and groups to take
the punitive action of withholding donations
to GSO based on a single issue and despite
all the other good service works done by
GSO?

Has that group done harm to AA as a whole
in its pillory of Bill W's authorship role in the
Big Book or in its public broadcast of the
embarrassment concerning his named
beneficiaries in his last will and testament?

Is there one set of Traditions and Concepts
that apply to the Board, AAWS and GSO
but a different set that apply to AA members
using the internet (an international public
forum) often to the extreme of engaging in
slander and revisionist history?

Arthur

0 -1 0 0
4151 Bill Lash
I''ve Never Quit Being Active (1968), Clarence S. I''ve Never Quit Being Active (1968), Clarence S. 3/3/2007 7:03:00 AM

I've Never Quit Being Active
by Clarence Snyder
A.A. Grapevine, November 1999

On February 11, 1938, I had my last drink. I
was a chronic alky, and through a long, involved
miracle, I met my sponsor, Dr. Bob, one of our
co-founders. He put me in Akron City Hospital,
where I met the alkies who had preceded me in
the Fellowship.

Fifteen months later, I organized the Cleveland,
Ohio AA group. The activity in the Cleveland
area was hectic. I spent practically all my
time obtaining and following up on publicity
for AA, lining up cooperation with civic and
church groups, hospitals, and courts, and
helping new groups to start.

So what do I do now, thirty years later? I
have never quit being active, although my
position in the Fellowship has modified over
the years. I attend an average of two meetings
per week, when I am home. I am also asked to
speak at various groups. In addition, I am
invited to take part in numerous group
anniversary programs and AA roundups around
the country (and sometimes out of the country).
Many people call upon me for counsel and advice
on both personal and group problems. I have an
extensive correspondence, since I have made
so many friends in AA from coast to coast. Once
in a while, I sponsor someone. Cases where
about everything has been tried, by everyone
else, often wind up in my hands.

I have not found the program to be difficult,
and I maintain that if it does seem difficult
for anyone, he is not doing it "right."
Certainly, when I came to this Fellowship,
I was in no position or condition to handle
anything difficult! I kept things simple. But
I must add that when I first began I was
well sponsored.

I took measures now summarized in the first
nine Steps of the program: admittance of need
(the First Step), surrender (Second through
Seventh), and restitution (Eighth and Ninth).
Having done this, I no longer had a drinking
problem, since it had been turned over to a
Higher Power. Now I had - and still have -
a living problem. But that is taken care of
by the practice of Steps Ten, Eleven, and
Twelve. So I don't have to be concerned
about anything but a simple three-step program,
which with practice has become habitual.

Step Ten enables me to check on myself and
my activities of the day. I have found that
most things disturbing me are little things,
but still the very things which, if not dealt
with, can pile up and eventually overwhelm me.
My daily checkup covers good deeds as well
as questionable ones; often, I find I can
commend myself in some areas, while in
others I owe apologies.

Step Eleven is done after my daily inventory.
I usually need the peace resulting from prayer
and meditation, and I do receive guidance
for my life and actions.

Step Twelve, to me, does involve not only
carrying the message, but extending AA
principles into all phases of my daily life.

I learned long ago that this is a life-
changing program, but that, after the change
occurs, it is necessary for me to go on
making the effort to improve myself mentally,
morally, and spiritually.

This is my simple program, and I recommend
it to anyone who wants a good life and is
willing to do his share of helping.

C.H.S., St. Petersburg, Florida

0 -1 0 0
4152 Bob McK.
RE: Percentage women in AA worldwide? Percentage women in AA worldwide? 3/3/2007 8:01:00 AM

35% at last count. This and other AA information
is available on AA's website: aa.org as well
is in a printed pamphlet (P-48) called the
Membership Survey:

http://aa.org/en_pdfs/p-48_04survey.pdf

Why only 35%? Shouldn't it be 50%. That's what
I thought. But about 10 years ago I was standing
in a buffet line next to John Chappel, a Reno,
NV psychiatrist and one of our Class A Trustees.
We had just reviewed the membership survey.

John said that it's a funny thing. As best as
medical science knows from autopsies, etc.,
no more than 20-25% of alcoholics are women.
And yet we have a much higher percentage in
AA.

John surmised that this may be because these
two men developed a program that involves
"sharing your feelings" and this was something
women do better than men.

I do not know how accurate the medical science
number is and our statistic is definitely subject
to question, but this was an interesting
interaction that stuck with me.

0 -1 0 0
4153 jblair101
Irish bishops on alcoholism in Ireland Irish bishops on alcoholism in Ireland 3/3/2007 6:58:00 PM

For those interested about alcoholism in Ireland, I suggest viewing

"Reduce alcohol consumption hurting the family, nation, Irish bishops
urge" at
http://www.catholic.org/printer_friendly.php?id=23061&section=Cathcom
and
"Text of the Irish bishops' pastoral letter `Alcohol: The Challenge of
Moderation'" at
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=23062

john blair

0 -1 0 0
4154 Mitchell K.
Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) 3/3/2007 8:54:00 PM

Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about
LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I
didn't however see anyone mention that the author of
the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in
Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get
a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living
author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that
book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so
interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may
be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of
codified principles exist that take precedence over
the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of
> state and national laws and treaties having the
effect of law"

Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book
or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt
here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of
the actual document bearing Wayne's signature.

Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a
selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless
one gets caught.



> To Gary B and Lee N -
> this is a very long reply
>
> The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are
> historic AA milestones whether or not they
> are viewed as infamous. Their history should
> be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both
> supporters and critics. Many AA members
> have staked out a position, some with
> reasoned argument and others with vitriol.
>
> The Traditions and Concepts are often cited
> as inviolable and near scriptural
> commandments that predetermine what the
> conduct of those who brought the lawsuit
> should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely
> directed at the German member who was
> found guilty of breaking the law. He is
> typically portrayed as a noble victim
> absolved of his legal infractions because he
> wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who
> stopped him from breaking the law are
> typically portrayed as villains having "hateful
> intentions."
>
> While it may be hard for some AA members
> to swallow, bodies of codified principles
> exist that take precedence over the Steps,
> Traditions and Concepts. They consist of
> state and national laws and treaties having
> the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor
> Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step
> activities" provide a refuge of extralegal
> privilege to evade the law and the resulting
> consequences of its infraction.
>
> When AA members are involved in 12th Step
> calls, it does not grant them extralegal
> privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore
> red lights on the way to carry AA's message.
> Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with
> a Big Book translation, it does not endow
> them with extralegal privilege to print their
>
> own preferred version in violation of
> copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th
> Step activity."
>
> Events leading up to the German lawsuit
> were premised on claims that the translation
> of the German Big Book lacked words
> denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted
> words denoting "psychological" and
> "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The
> website that supported the German member
> carried the following statements:
>
> ----------
> "A scientific research revaled [sic]
> differences between BBSG and German GSO
> versions of the big book.
>
> BBSG translated the multilith manuscript,
> because we were sure there were no
> restrictions by any copyright protection on it.
> German GSO sold a translation of 1983
> based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this
> had many mistakes. For example: The 11
> chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108
> times in the multilith manuscript and 106
> times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of
> 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight
> times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it
> was mostly replaced by "seelisch --
> psychological" and/or by "geistig --
> intellectual". This, among other faults,
> diluted the spiritual foundations of our
> recovery program and resulted in an
> extremely high relapse rate of more than
> 95% among German AA members. We felt
> obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation
> of [sic] has the correct German word
> "spirituell". There is more background
> information available at [.]"
> ----------
>
> The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and
> unsubstantiated (but often repeated these
> days in AA as part of various agendas). That
> piece of fiction stems from the
> misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989
> GSO report on preceding AA membership
> surveys.
>
> Attempting to link bogus Big Book
> translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus
> 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is
> beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators
> were motivated by "anti-spiritual
> resentments" illustrates the disparaging
> hyperbole that has permeated and polluted
> commentary on the matter from its onset.
>
> The BBSG research was anything but
> "scientific." In their web site statement
> the German word "giestig" was defined to
> only mean "intellectual." It has several
> meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The
> word "seelisch" (derived from the German
> word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only
> mean "psychological" when it too has several
> meanings one of which is also "spiritual."
> The German member asserted that the word
> "spirituell" should have been used to denote
> the English word "spiritual." That's how the
> whole episode started. It was all a matter of
> semantic preference.
>
> Two Word documents were available that
> purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in
> the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book
> translations. After personally examining both
> of them line by line it was plainly evident
> that claims of translation shortcomings were
> disingenuous and far more delusional than
> definitive.
>
> The Big Book copyright has expired only in
> the US and is still in force outside the US
> through international treaty agreements.
>
> In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on
> Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized
> that a public lawsuit is a public controversy,
> something in which our Tradition says we
> may not engage." His statement was in
> reference to a matter in the early 1950s of
> whether AA should petition Congress for
> congressional incorporation of the name
> "Alcoholics Anonymous."
>
> The Conference decision was "no" but
> matters changed over time and the name
> "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were
> legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's
> statement about lawsuits is not frozen in
> perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached
> the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and
> Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His
> Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early
> 1950s and his Concepts essays from the
> early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate
> such things as the world-wide internet,
> desk-top publishing, digitization and the
> international explosion of treaties and laws
> protecting intellectual property rights.
>
> From the material I've collected over the past
> years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack
> of balance and civil discussion in presenting
> both sides of the issue. The greatest part of
> the internet data consists of rather harsh
> accusations against the Board, AAWS and
> GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy
> out of the episode or having little better to do
> than seek out errant AA members to punish
> them.
>
> Something that is not well known in regard to
> lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995
> Conferences. The 1993 case involved the
> circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped
> and so were some recommendations of a
> special ad hoc committee formed the prior
> year to address the matter. The ad hoc
>
> committee's recommendation that "The
> Conference find that the initiation of
> litigation involving trademarks and service
> marks is a violation of Warranty Five"
> wound up as "not considered" in the
> Conference proceedings.
>
> The 1995 Conference concerned both the
> situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit.
> The 1995 Conference voted not to consider
> several proposed floor actions in the
> Conference proceedings. Among them:
>
> Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New
> Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the
> General Service Board of Alcoholics
> Anonymous meet with representatives of the
> two service structures in Mexico (Central
> and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if
> needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring
> to the 1996 Conference recommendations
> which would preclude reoccurrence of this
> type of conflict in any other
> situation/country."
>
>
=== message truncated ===

0 -1 0 0
4155 theresa leisinger
How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? 3/5/2007 11:48:00 AM

I love the Grapevine digital archives site.
Fascinating and inspiring.I was there the
other day,looking up some old Tiebout articles
I had heard about.

Any idea what search words might help me turn
up some Priscilla P. articles? I tried the
other day, no luck.

Maybe I'll just have to read them all, one at
a time!

0 -1 0 0
4157 Angela Corelis
Big Book price in Mexico Big Book price in Mexico 3/4/2007 10:07:00 PM

Just returned from quarterly Nayarit II District
Meeting, held here in Puerto Vallarta.

At the literature table, GSO publication

Big Book ................... 18 pesos.. about 1.60 U$
Pocket Big Book..........24 p....about 2.30U$
Twelve Steps...............12 p.....about 1.15 U$
12X12..........................34p .....about 3.20 U$

For comparison a cup of coffee in Mexican..
not tourist areas is about 10 p..U$ 0.95

(only have soft bound in Mexico...that I know of)

I do not consider that expensive for AA literature.

As rule other books are expensive in Mexico,
15-30 US$ from the days when most wood pulp
for paper was imported because of a 20 year
moritorium on logging...and of course when
that was lifted, costs remained high.

0 -1 0 0
4158 Corey Franks
Re: How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? 3/7/2007 11:02:00 AM

HI.. I did a 13 month Intership with Bill P.
at Hazelden a few years ago and found Priscilla
P in a lot of Articles i had read in the
Grapevines. Bill P. had me read from the first
one out there who was in the very early days
until way into the laters days.

She had great influence in AA circles in the
beginnings and she was very right on with her
articles and participation. Quite the outstanding
person!

Look her up in the earliest of the Grapevines.

Thx! Corey F.

0 -1 0 0
4159 Sally Brown
Re: How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? How can we search for Grapevine articles by Priscilla P.? 3/6/2007 11:53:00 PM

Dave and I have never tried searching for any
of Priscilla P's articles, whether in the
Grapevine or Vogue Magazine, where she was
art editor for decades. In fact, we've not
seen any example of her written work except
a love note or two. Odd, when I think of it,
considering she was an English major in college,
and certainly knew her way around words. But
her favored mode of expression was art -
drawing and painting.

Have you tried just her initials, P.P.? It's
also possible she never did sign what she
wrote.

Do let me know if you come across anything.
Good luck!

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown, coauthor
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann:
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ

www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
1470 Sand Hill Road, 309
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
Email: rev.sally@att.net

0 -1 0 0
4160 TBaerMojo@aol.com
Re: "came to scoff" quote "came to scoff" quote 3/7/2007 10:06:00 AM

"The Deserted Village" is often quoted here
by fans of Auburn University who cite the
phrase "lovelist village of the plain" as a
tribute to their school. Of course, most have
not read the poem or they would realize that
it is about the glory that used to be and is
now gone.

But, what the heck, it's a land grant university.

Thanks for the info on the origin of the last
sentence in Silkworth's opinion that without
spiritual help drunks are doomed.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: awn4@columbia.edu
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 7:54 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "came to scoff" quote

From Dr. Silkworth's letter, it is quoted from
Oliver Goldsmith, "The Deserted Village," with
an echo in the story in "Tom Sawyer" about
whitewashing the fence.

- - - -

Hey folks,

Maybe you all knew this already, but I was
thrilled this morning to stumble across the
origin of the last line of Dr. Silkworth's
letter on page xxxii in The Doctor's Opinion.

The sentence reads, "I earnestly advise every
alcoholic to read this book through, and though
perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray."

I've begun reading "Tom Sawyer" to my third-grade
daughter in the morning before the school bus
arrives. Today we read the famous second chapter
where Tom tricks the boys in the neighborhood to
pay him for the privilege of whitewashing the
fence for him. Mark Twain writes, "...they came
to jeer but remained to whitewash."

The footnote then refers us to "The Deserted
Village," a poem written in 1770 by Oliver
Goldsmith. Lines 177-180 read, "At church,
with meek and unaffected grace,/His looks
adorned the venerable place;/Truth from his
lips prevailed the double sway,/And fools,
who came to scoff, remained to pray."

Here's Wikipedia on Goldsmith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Goldsmith

And here's the poem: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~mgamer/Etexts/goldsmith

Did I find something new? New to me, at any
rate. I love The Doctor's Opinion.

Sasha

************
Sasha N. in Amherst

0 -1 0 0
4161 Lee Nickerson
Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) 3/7/2007 2:01:00 PM

To me, when all of this was happening, it was
not the details that seemed to matter to the
minority who opposed the public controversy
in Mexico and Germany; it was the aggresive
chauvinistic attitude of AAWS and its then
President and GSO manager, George D. that upset
us.

We never had any defense against the legal
arguments that were tossed around but we were
united in the fact that the Traditions,
Concepts, and the clear intentions of our
founders were being violated with impunity and
spiritual arrogance.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about
> LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I
> didn't however see anyone mention that the author of
> the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in
> Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get
> a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living
> author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that
> book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so
> interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may
> be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of
> codified principles exist that take precedence over
> the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of
> > state and national laws and treaties having the
> effect of law"
>
> Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book
> or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt
> here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of
> the actual document bearing Wayne's signature.
>
> Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a
> selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless
> one gets caught.
>
>
>
> > To Gary B and Lee N -
> > this is a very long reply
> >
> > The Germany and Mexico lawsuits are
> > historic AA milestones whether or not they
> > are viewed as infamous. Their history should
> > be chronicled showing the viewpoints of both
> > supporters and critics. Many AA members
> > have staked out a position, some with
> > reasoned argument and others with vitriol.
> >
> > The Traditions and Concepts are often cited
> > as inviolable and near scriptural
> > commandments that predetermine what the
> > conduct of those who brought the lawsuit
> > should have been. Similar scrutiny is rarely
> > directed at the German member who was
> > found guilty of breaking the law. He is
> > typically portrayed as a noble victim
> > absolved of his legal infractions because he
> > wanted to do "12th Step activity." Those who
> > stopped him from breaking the law are
> > typically portrayed as villains having "hateful
> > intentions."
> >
> > While it may be hard for some AA members
> > to swallow, bodies of codified principles
> > exist that take precedence over the Steps,
> > Traditions and Concepts. They consist of
> > state and national laws and treaties having
> > the effect of law. Neither the Traditions nor
> > Concepts nor claims of doing "12th step
> > activities" provide a refuge of extralegal
> > privilege to evade the law and the resulting
> > consequences of its infraction.
> >
> > When AA members are involved in 12th Step
> > calls, it does not grant them extralegal
> > privileges to exceed speed limits or ignore
> > red lights on the way to carry AA's message.
> > Similarly, if AA members are unhappy with
> > a Big Book translation, it does not endow
> > them with extralegal privilege to print their
> >
> > own preferred version in violation of
> > copyright laws with the alibi that it is "12th
> > Step activity."
> >
> > Events leading up to the German lawsuit
> > were premised on claims that the translation
> > of the German Big Book lacked words
> > denoting "spiritual" and instead substituted
> > words denoting "psychological" and
> > "intellectual." Those claims were bogus. The
> > website that supported the German member
> > carried the following statements:
> >
> > ----------
> > "A scientific research revaled [sic]
> > differences between BBSG and German GSO
> > versions of the big book.
> >
> > BBSG translated the multilith manuscript,
> > because we were sure there were no
> > restrictions by any copyright protection on it.
> > German GSO sold a translation of 1983
> > based on the 3rd Edition of 1976, but this
> > had many mistakes. For example: The 11
> > chapters contain the word "spiritual" 108
> > times in the multilith manuscript and 106
> > times in the 3rd Edition. The translation of
> > 1983 contains the word "spiritual" only eight
> > times. Caused by anti-spiritual resentments it
> > was mostly replaced by "seelisch --
> > psychological" and/or by "geistig --
> > intellectual". This, among other faults,
> > diluted the spiritual foundations of our
> > recovery program and resulted in an
> > extremely high relapse rate of more than
> > 95% among German AA members. We felt
> > obliged to take action. Our BBSG translation
> > of [sic] has the correct German word
> > "spirituell". There is more background
> > information available at [.]"
> > ----------
> >
> > The notion of a 95% relapse rate is inane and
> > unsubstantiated (but often repeated these
> > days in AA as part of various agendas). That
> > piece of fiction stems from the
> > misinterpretation of a single graph in a 1989
> > GSO report on preceding AA membership
> > surveys.
> >
> > Attempting to link bogus Big Book
> > translation "mistakes" to the equally bogus
> > 95% relapse rate as cause and effect is
> > beyond absurd. Claiming that the translators
> > were motivated by "anti-spiritual
> > resentments" illustrates the disparaging
> > hyperbole that has permeated and polluted
> > commentary on the matter from its onset.
> >
> > The BBSG research was anything but
> > "scientific." In their web site statement
> > the German word "giestig" was defined to
> > only mean "intellectual." It has several
> > meanings "spiritual" being one of them. The
> > word "seelisch" (derived from the German
> > word "seele" or "soul") was defined to only
> > mean "psychological" when it too has several
> > meanings one of which is also "spiritual."
> > The German member asserted that the word
> > "spirituell" should have been used to denote
> > the English word "spiritual." That's how the
> > whole episode started. It was all a matter of
> > semantic preference.
> >
> > Two Word documents were available that
> > purported to demonstrate the shortcomings in
> > the 1983 and 1996 German Big Book
> > translations. After personally examining both
> > of them line by line it was plainly evident
> > that claims of translation shortcomings were
> > disingenuous and far more delusional than
> > definitive.
> >
> > The Big Book copyright has expired only in
> > the US and is still in force outside the US
> > through international treaty agreements.
> >
> > In the portion of the Concept 12 essay on
> > Warranty 5, Bill W wrote "It was recognized
> > that a public lawsuit is a public controversy,
> > something in which our Tradition says we
> > may not engage." His statement was in
> > reference to a matter in the early 1950s of
> > whether AA should petition Congress for
> > congressional incorporation of the name
> > "Alcoholics Anonymous."
> >
> > The Conference decision was "no" but
> > matters changed over time and the name
> > "Alcoholics Anonymous" and "A.A." were
> > legally registered in 1972. Likewise Bill W's
> > statement about lawsuits is not frozen in
> > perpetuity. Hopefully, AA has not reached
> > the mind-set of "Mathew, Mark, Luke and
> > Bill" in interpreting Bill W's writings. His
> > Traditions essays of the mid-1940s to early
> > 1950s and his Concepts essays from the
> > early 1960s most certainly did not anticipate
> > such things as the world-wide internet,
> > desk-top publishing, digitization and the
> > international explosion of treaties and laws
> > protecting intellectual property rights.
> >
> > From the material I've collected over the past
> > years, the lawsuit episode suffers from a lack
> > of balance and civil discussion in presenting
> > both sides of the issue. The greatest part of
> > the internet data consists of rather harsh
> > accusations against the Board, AAWS and
> > GSO at times portraying them as deriving joy
> > out of the episode or having little better to do
> > than seek out errant AA members to punish
> > them.
> >
> > Something that is not well known in regard to
> > lawsuits occurred at the 1993 and 1995
> > Conferences. The 1993 case involved the
> > circle and triangle lawsuit. It was dropped
> > and so were some recommendations of a
> > special ad hoc committee formed the prior
> > year to address the matter. The ad hoc
> >
> > committee's recommendation that "The
> > Conference find that the initiation of
> > litigation involving trademarks and service
> > marks is a violation of Warranty Five"
> > wound up as "not considered" in the
> > Conference proceedings.
> >
> > The 1995 Conference concerned both the
> > situation in Mexico and the German lawsuit.
> > The 1995 Conference voted not to consider
> > several proposed floor actions in the
> > Conference proceedings. Among them:
> >
> > Not considered: "Area 44 [Northern New
> > Jersey] requests that the 21 trustees of the
> > General Service Board of Alcoholics
> > Anonymous meet with representatives of the
> > two service structures in Mexico (Central
> > and Seccion). The purpose of this meeting, if
> > needed, is to mediate the conflict and to bring
> > to the 1996 Conference recommendations
> > which would preclude reoccurrence of this
> > type of conflict in any other
> > situation/country."
> >
> >
> === message truncated ===
>

0 -1 0 0
4162 Glenn Chesnut
The start of AA in Ireland from the Furrow (Nov. 1953) The start of AA in Ireland from the Furrow (Nov. 1953) 3/7/2007 4:06:00 PM

From: JOHN e REID <jre33756@bigpond.net.au>
(jre33756 at bigpond.net.au)

Subject: The start of AA in Ireland
(article from The Furrow, November 1953)

"Twenty-nine years ago it was carried to
Australia by a travelling American". (Further
comment by John R- The genesis of AA came to
Australia via the Big Book being sent to Dr.
Sylvester Minogue in 1942.)

"Three years later, it came indirectly from
Australia to Ireland, this time by a priest.
This priest was on holiday in Dublin in
September 1946 and was interviewed by an
evening paper on the subject of a Boy’s Town
with which he was connected in Australia. In
the course of his talk he commented at length
on the success that A.A. was having in Sydney
and expressed the hope that Dublin would do
well to take it up. This interview was read
by a member of the Philadelphia group, an
Irishman who had gone to live in the States,
who was over here on holiday. Spurred on by
his wife, he determined to start a group in
Dublin, with the help of a doctor and by
advertising, he managed to scrape together a
small number of men willing to make the
experiment. Their first public meeting was
held in The Country Shop on November25th.;
and here on that night the first A.A. group
in Europe was formed."


THE FURROW, NOVEMBER, 1953
(Details amended to 1972)

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
A CATHOLIC MEMBERS APPRECIATION

"I HEAR the A.A. want to start a group here.
Do you know anything about these fellows?" I
was shown this part of a letter from one
country priest to another not so long ago.
I am an alcoholic myself and a member of A.A.
for twenty-four years. My own success in the
adventure of sobriety is bound up with the
success of A.A. in Ireland. The object of this
article is to tell something about "these
fellows": what we are, what we try to do and
what we have so far achieved. For we have found
a knowledge and understanding of A.A. has made
us friends and gained us helpers.

Up to comparatively recently, Society has
placed all drunks in the same category -
weak-willed, callous, helpless and unhelpable,
intentional sinners, skeletons whose greatest
offence is that they will not remain snugly
in their family cupboards. Yet nearly everyone
knows at least one person whose drinking has
apparently almost without warning become
incomprehensible. Men with good homes, money,
good business or jobs, good reputations, healthy,
in no way unhappy, suddenly go off the rails.
Normal, seemingly, when not drinking, their
characters undergo a complete change once they
start on alcohol. Their former occasional
"night-outs" develop swiftly into bouts, the
bouts come closer and closer together. In many
cases they are seldom completely sober. Their
drinking is followed by periods of intense
remorse, by sincere though short lived attempts
to stay off liquor. Their relatives are in
turn startled, puzzled, anxious to help,
resentful, contemptuous, enraged. They
themselves are at first sure they can find
a way of retaining control "next time," then
frightened when they fail repeatedly, then
hopeless. Their complete ignorance of what
has happened to them, what is still happened
to them, what is still happening to them, makes
it impossible for them to explain to, and gain
the understanding sympathy of, those they love
and respect. Little by little they cut
themselves off from their world; they live in
a state of desperate loneliness and finally
become outcasts. These are the persons sometimes
called the Problem Drinkers. They are, in fact,
alcoholics or compulsive drinkers, suffering
from a physical allergy to alcohol combined with
a mental obsession to take more once they start
to drink: drinkers whose compulsion to drink
is a sign of disease. There are few alcoholics
who have recovered who would deny that this
disease is really spiritual.

A.A. is a loose knit society of men and women
alcoholics who have banded together in groups
all over the world to share their experience,
strength and hope with each other, that they may
solve their common problem and help others to
recover from alcoholism. There are at the time
of writing over 14,000 such groups, with a
total membership of about 500,000 spread all
over the world. The only requirement for
membership is a sincere desire to stop drinking.
A.A. is not allied with any particular religion,
creed or denomination. It has nothing to do with
politics, other organizations or any institution.
A.A. simply minds its own business…to stay
sober and help other alcoholics to achieve
sobriety. Alcoholism is not a purely Catholic,
Protestant or Jewish disease; it is not the
exclusive illness of either the millionaire or
the down-and-out. Alcoholism strikes at all
creeds, class and income—grades impartially.
A.A.’s success has largely derived from its
refusal to recognize any difference between
one alcoholic and another. They are all sick
persons, requiring A.A. ‘s help. A.A. does not
usurp the place of Church or Medicine. The
alcoholic who joins in poor physical condition
is strongly advised to consult his doctor.
The alcoholic’s religion, or lack of it, is
his own affair. In general, it has been our
experience that a good A.A. member becomes a
better member of his Church. But our primary
object is to achieve sobriety. From that
sobriety the other things will stem; without
it, they are impossible. A.A. is not concerned
with money. It has nothing to sell and none
of its members are paid for A.A. work. There
are no positions of authority to be obtained;
each member is on exactly the same footing. Its
policy of anonymity does away with the danger
of membership being used as a means of obtaining
personal kudos. Thus the three most ordinary
occasions of disunity and disruption are
guarded against. Each group is autonomous.
Its own members care for the necessary money to
meet expenses of rent, printing and incidentals.
Donations from outside sources are politely
refused. Its officers are elected in rotation.
Its policy of anonymity was first chosen as a
worldly safeguard for its members; the spiritual
value of anonymity has become more apparent
since. But while personal anonymity is required,
A.A. is only too glad of any publicity to its
aims and being.

It came into existence thirty six years ago in
America through a chance meeting between a New
York stockbroker named Bill (in A.A. all members
go by their first names), and an Akron doctor,
Bob. Bill had already managed to keep sober for
six months as the result of following out a
few principles of living largely based on the
Oxford Groups "Absolutes." He had, however,
just had the bad end of a business deal and came
to realize that to preserve his own sobriety
he must make contact with another alcoholic and
help him to achieve sobriety as well. Both of
these men had long and dreadful histories of
drink; but from that first meeting, they both
remained sober. Bob died twenty-two years ago,
but Bill lived till 1971, a total abstainer
for over 36 years, after he had been given up
as a hopeless and unhelpable drunk. The society
they started that day grew slowly and shakily;
it took over four years to muster the first
hundred members. Since then it has grown in
increasing tempo to its present size. In
numbers it is still mainly American, United
States and Canada. Twenty-nine years ago it
was carried to Australia by a travelling
American. Three years later, it came indirectly
from Australia to Ireland, this time by a
priest.


This priest was on holiday in Dublin in September
1946 and was interviewed by an evening paper
on the subject of a Boy’s Town with which he
was connected in Australia. In the course of
his talk he commented at length on the success
that A.A. was having in Sydney and expressed the
hope that Dublin would do well to take it up.
This interview was read by a member of the
Philadelphia group, an Irishman who had gone
to live in the States, who was over here on
holiday. Spurred on by his wife, he determined
to start a group in Dublin, with the help of
a doctor and by advertising, he managed to
scrape together a small number of men willing
to make the experiment. Their first public
meeting was held in The Country Shop on
November 25th.; and here on that night the
first A.A. group in Europe was formed. As
in America, the start was slow and uphill.
Today it is firmly established in Dublin
(35 Groups ); there are many large groups
in Belfast; there are several groups in
Limerick, Cork and Galway, and smaller ones
elsewhere. Public meetings are held every
Monday night, still in The Country Shop, where
attendance’s range from 50 upwards to 100. The
maximum attendance was at a meeting held in
the Mansion House when over 400 came along
to listen to the Co-Founder of the Society,
Bill. At a conservative estimate, there are
at least 2000 members in Ireland and an
estimated 8,000 in England, Scotland and
Wales. A good many others, though partially
convinced, are not yet ready to make, and
act on, the necessary admission that they
are beaten by drink. A world estimate is that
about 70% of those who join and give the A.A.
program a fair trial recover, though a great
many of these suffer one or more relapses
before they finally settle down. A short time
ago, I was asked at a clerical meeting to
explain to them why an alcoholic went on
drinking long after it was evident that he
was incapable of exercising control. I find
it almost impossible to do so. I can only
say that for a very long period of my own
thirty years drinking I honestly believed I
could, someday and somehow, find a way of
drinking all I wanted without losing control.
Life without drink seemed to me to be an
unnatural and quite impossible way of
existence. Later I became drearily hopeless
and fatalistic about it. Though I still
continued to make attempts to pull up, I felt
even at the time that they were quite useless.
I felt it would start again sometime, so what
was the use of trying too hard? The truth is
that we don’t know why we drink; but when we
tell the truth, we are not believed. Strength
of will and sincerity of purpose do not enter
into it. I have entered my name for a Retreat
to find help in Quitting drink, yet gone to
that retreat with a bottle of gin in my bag,
which I drank between the first exercise and
going to sleep. After a month’s voluntary
treatment in a private home, I felt convinced
I had mastered drink; and been drinking again
within a few hours. Drink makes us mentally
unbalanced and we cannot be honest even with
ourselves for long at a time.

My own case history may be cited as typical
of an A.A. member, though space will mercifully
prelude any but the minimum necessary details.
I am seventy-five years of age, single and come
from a good class Catholic family. My home life
was happy and I went to a Catholic College in
England. Later I entered the profession I wanted
to join; I was very happy in it, I got on well.
I was good at games; I was considered good at
work, above the average of my rank in the
British Army. I had a promising future to look
forward to, I had nothing from which to escape.
There was no previous history of drink in my
family. I can see no reason why I should have
become an alcoholic, yet almost from the start
I drank like an alcoholic. At first I had some
sort of control over myself as to when I drank.
If circumstances seemed to indicate the need
for it, I cut out drinking without much effort
and with no feeling of self sacrifice. But
even in those first years if I drank at all
I went on for the rest of the night. Soon I
was losing even that control. I began to drink
at the wrong times, in the wrong places and
before the wrong people. Good luck and good
friends covered up for me for many years, but
finally life caught up on me and I was retired
on retired pay, branded as not to be re-employed.
This virtual dismissal made very little
impression on me. I still had enough money
for drink and I had a home to live in. Six
more years were to pass before the climax
came. I had been inflicting every kind of
unhappiness not only on myself but on my
parents, not the least for the latter being
my complete indifference to my religious
duties. In April 1947 they ordered me out
of the house and the family and their lives.
By now I had added drugs to alcohol. My routine
had become one of the drugs in the morning to
revive me, drink all day and another drug at
night to give me sleep. My parents’ "revolt"
opened my eyes for the first time to where I
had descended. It proved to be my own gutter.
Fear for my security and at the prospect of
becoming one of the legion of the homeless
lost ( with the next stop almost certainly
a Night Shelter ), at last made me genuinely
willing in my own interest to do anything I
could to stop drinking ("Give me back my
Legions".). The trouble was that I could think
of nothing useful. Doctors, homes, hospitals,
promises, all had proved in vain. Then my memory
went back to that interview I had read nine
months before, about A.A. The Grace of God must
have put it into my heart to go to a meeting
that night, and I managed to strike a one-sided
bargain with my parents that if A.A. could do
some good I might stay at my parents on probation.
I arrived at that meeting, more than half-drunk,
shaking from drugs and nerves; not too good a
prospect, even for A.A. By the goodness of God
and the help He has sent me through A.A. I have
not had another drink since then.

There is no set blueprint of recovery in A.A.
Each member succeeds in his own way and time
and at his own pace. So what I write must be
taken as my own experience only. For me, recovery
came from Knowledge, Decision, Group or social
therapy, a return to Realism and the program
of the Twelve Steps. All of these together for
me make up the A.A. way of life. And I attacked
my recovery problem in just that order, which
seems to me to be entirely logical. Without
Knowledge, I could not come to any decision
that would stand up for long. Without Decision
to recover, group therapy would be a waste
of time. Without Realism I should have been
continuing my old pattern of running away into
dreamland from the inescapable facts of life.
And while all these things were essential to
me to stop drinking, I had to bring another
factor into play, the Twelve Steps, to learn
not only how to remain abstinent but to be
happy in remaining so.

That Knowledge was elementary, though new to
me. Alcoholism is a sort of disease acquired
by two or three percent of the world’s drinkers.
The disease in simplifying language is the
disease of not being able to drink in
moderation. It is the first drink the
alcoholic takes that sets his disease in
active virulence, not the total quantity
consumed. Alcoholism cannot be completely
eliminated once it gains a footing. No matter
how long I might remain abstinent at a time,
I would never be able to control my drinking
if I started again. But if I could find a way
of not taking a first drink, I could stay
sober and normal.

The decision I had to take was to give up
drinking for good. I had to face the unpalatable
fact that I must make abstinence my own first
and most vital aim. As for the group therapy,
I was prepared to accept that the older members
had had to make themselves essential to their
groups and the groups essential to themselves.
If I was going to avail myself of the same
means that they had found necessary and
successful, it followed that I must attempt
what they did. Group therapy to me does not
merely mean coming together at stated times
for formal meetings. These meetings are
important for many reasons and as the visible
sign of coherence. The equally valuable, though
invisible, sign is keeping the closest possible
touch with the members of the group even when
they are not in actual physical contact. That
can be done by constantly thinking about the
group, working for it, praying for it;
keeping it in mind as much as possible.

Reality consisted in recognizing that my
alcoholic life must be cut down to a size I
could hope to deal with. My disposition was
such that if I continued to think of abstinence
in terms of months or years, I would be pretty
certain that nothing would be done. So I adopted
the A.A. suggestion of living my life in periods
of twenty-four hours at a time. Today, the
only day in reality that I ever have at my
disposal. From the beginning, I slowly advanced
to being content to accomplish only what of
the rest of my life I could fit into Today.
That again required further realism to
determine which things were of the most
immediate importance to be done Today. But
my primary reality will always remain
concentrated on not taking one single drink
Today.

Finally, the program of recovery, contained
in the following Twelve Steps:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol --
that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than
ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our
lives over to the care of God as we understood
Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory
of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another
human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all
these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed
and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever
possible, except when to do so would injure
them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and
when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to
improve our conscious contact with God as we
understood Him, praying only for knowledge of
His will for us and the power to carry that
out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the
result of these steps we tried to carry this
message to alcoholics and practice these
principles in all our affairs.

These steps seem strong meat for reforming
alcoholics. It helped me greatly to remember
that this program was not some optimistic
chart for super-saints. It was based on the
actual experience of human beings, alcoholics
like myself. They were not impossibly idealistic
steps; they had all been attempted by others
successfully. It is sometimes said that all
the steps are spiritual except the first. For
me, the first step is also essentially spiritual.
I could admit in words to myself that I was
powerless over alcohol, but where would that
take me unless that admission embraced not
only the actual wording but also what was
implicit in it? No, taking that step was a
declaration to myself that because I sincerely
wanted to recover, I was fully resolved to
try to live out the way of life suggested in
the following eleven steps.

The second step, too, called for determination.
Here I could no longer avoid my spiritual life.
I had to subdue my pride and acknowledge that
a greater Power, God, was in complete control
of my life. I had to strive to make God a
daily living reality in my life, not a pious
Sunday morning superstition. The third step
was perhaps the hardest, relinquishing control
and guidance of my life to God. But in the
measure of the success I attained here would
lie the measure of success I would meet with
in continued sobriety, happiness and peace of
mind. The fourth step was akin to our general
confession. For me, that moral inventory was
not a moral mudrake but a serious effort to
find out about myself, to find what things
stood in the way of my carrying out the third
step. The fourth step taught me self-knowledge.
We take an inventory of ourselves; we do not
attempt to beat our neighbor’s breast.

The fifth was only a practical application of
the truism that confession is good for the soul.
This and the next few following steps contain
no great difficulty for the alcoholic who is
sincere in his acceptance of the third. The
tenth was our nightly examination of conscience
with the added obligation of owing up to human
beings when we were frankly wrong. The eleventh
was a guide to our carrying out the third. The
sting of the steps is contained in the tail of
the Twelfth, that part which suggests we carry
out the foregoing principles in all our affairs.
Many may be willing enough to practice them
in their alcoholic affairs. The older members
had found out that this would not be enough
to ensure happiness and a good conscience.
This part of the steps is that which binds
‘them all together. It cannot be ignored with
safety.

It always remains important that we remember
why we joined A.A. It was to recover our own
sobriety for our own sakes; not to preach to
the unconverted. That must remain our primary
goal. We cannot afford to forget our previously
helplessness when friends talk prettily of
our apostolic mission. Charity begins at home.

Since A.A. has been operating there for longer
and on a very much greater scale, the Church
in America has had more opportunity to assess
its work and direction. An extract from a
letter received here from the Chancellor of a
very large archdiocese will give some idea of
the impression made. "The Bishops of our country
up to now have not taken any official stand
on A.A. The movement has not been condemned;
the movement has not been officially approved.
Personally I am convinced that the A.A. movement
is the most sound and the most successful approach
that has ever been made in our country to the
problem of the alcoholic. In my archdiocese,
I am under the impression that about one-half
of its members at one time were Catholics.
The Twelve Steps appeal to me as being entirely
in harmony with the Catholic faith and morals,
as being clearly stated religious and moral
principles in language which is simple and
easily understood. Honesty to oneself, humility,
contrition, purpose of amendment, unburdening
one’s soul and accusing one’s self of failing
to another person, placing one’s hope and
confidence in God, making restitution, relying
upon prayer and meditation, spiritual reading,
seem to me to be sound and solid principles
necessary for rehabilitation. The apostolic
step to carry the message to alcoholics and
to help others to rehabilitate themselves ‘is
also in conformity with Christian teaching and
seems to be psychologically of utmost importance.
Cases have come to my attention of priests who
were victims of alcoholism being re-instated
through A.A. A large number of lukewarm and
indifferent Catholics have returned to an
active practice of their faith; and strange
as it may seem, several instances are known
of non-Catholics who have been brought to the
Catholic faith through the A.A. movement...
The Chancery has been very solicitous to avoid
giving the impression that the archdiocese
was trying to take over the A.A. movement or
trying to interfere in either the organization
or activities of the Group."

It may sound ungracious to stress the
importance of that last sentence, considering
that A.A. is looking for all the help the
Church can give. But one of the biggest
attractions to the prospective member is that
he is joining a society of alcoholics run and
controlled in every way by alcoholics. Any
suggestion that the group was in someway
controlled or unduly influenced by an outside
"partisan" body, however benevolently disposed,
would be bad news for the unity of the members.
We seem to be forced into the ungenerous
position of having to say to our outside
helpers:

"Please do all you can for us; but stay in
your corner until we want you." In truth, we
are only guided by our experience, which is
that one alcoholic is the best ambassador to
another. We speak the same language, a language
that cannot be entirely understood by even
the most sympathetic of our friends who is not
himself an alcoholic.

What we ask from priests who have a will to
help us is that they will be content with
steering alcoholics towards us and that they
will be willing to stand aside when they have
done so; that they will, even though perhaps
with every conscious effort, try to understand
that the alcoholic is not, in his present
condition at least, a deliberate sinner but a
very sick person requiring experienced treatment;
and that they will examine our successes rather
than our failures, for our successes are being
gained in a field considered hopeless until
recently. And we ask them, too, not to look
on us as rivals to any temperance movement
already sponsored by them. We are not in
competition with anyone or anything.

A.A. is not a charitable society in the sense
that it engages to supply its members with
loans of money, employment or even clothes for
which it has no further personal use. It is a
charitable society in the meaning of Christ’s
teaching. We ask for nothing material for
ourselves personally or as groups. We do ask
for charity for the sick alcoholic; sympathy
for his problem; understanding of his condition
and a willingness to advise him to seek recovery
where so many thousands have already found it.
A.A. is in no way a substitute for the
Sacraments"; it has proved to be in most
cases of Catholic alcoholics a positive urge
towards them. It is with confidence then that
we ask for the good will of the readers of The
Furrow and for their prayers - that those
of us who have recovered may maintain our
sobriety and that the Grace of God may bring
our members and their families that happiness
which is the end of man.

A Member
C/o The Country Shop, 23 St. Stephen’s Green,
Dublin.
March 1972

The Vatican and Alcoholics Anonymous. A Dublin
member of Alcoholics Anonymous, 23 St. Stephens
Green, Dublin 2, writes:

Archbishop Enrici, Apostolic Nuncio to Great
Britain, came to, and spoke at the recent
European Convention of A.A. held at Bristol
at the end of September last. Afterwards he
made the suggestion that, as he believed little
was known at the Vatican about A.A. and its
suggested way of recovery, a visit from a
couple of its members might be of great value
to both parties.

Accordingly, in January of this year, an English
Catholic member and I departed for Rome and
remained for a fortnight. Our only contact, up
to the time of our arrival there, was through
the Bishop of Clifton, the very recently
appointed rector of the English College. But
through his generous guidance we obtained a
list of those he thought we should try to
contact. And through the kindness of the Irish
mother superior of the Poor Servants of the
Mother of God at Mater Dei Convent (they have
a sister house in Raheny, Dublin), we were lent
the services of an Italian-speaking nun to help
us to effect the necessary approaches by
telephone. We acknowledge with deep gratitude
that all of them, very willingly and at very
short notice, agreed to make the appointments
which enabled us to carry out the program
given briefly as follows:

Talks given to the students and staff of the
English, Irish, Beda, Scottish and North
American Colleges.

Reception by Mgr. Uylenbroek, Secretary of
the Council of the Laity.

Reception by Cardinal John Joseph Wright,
Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the
Clergy.

Reception by the Superior General of the Society
of Jesus, Very Rev. Father Arrupe, S.J.

Reception by the Servants of the Paraclete.

On January 19, we had the supreme honour of
being received by His Holiness Pope Paul in
private audience. The Pope graciously greeted
us not only for our own sakes, but for the
work we were engaged on (i.e. Alcoholics
Anonymous ), which he described as fine work,
a real apostolate. He urged us to press on
with our work, gave it his blessing and told
us that he would keep it and us in his prayers.

The granting of this private audience went far
beyond our dearest dreams and was a most
wonderful experience for us both. It was, too,
a historic event in the thirty-six—year history
of our fellowship, being the first and so far
the only occasion on which a reigning pontiff
has received individuals in private audience
as members of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The editor of The Furrow, who has always been
so generous in his encouragement and active
aid to A.A., has placed me more deeply in his
debt than ever by inviting this short account
of our embassy to Rome. It is a pleasure to
inform him that reprints of an article ‘A
Catholic Member’s Appreciation of Alcoholics
Anonymous,’ which appeared in The Furrow of
November 1953, have found a good home and an
enthusiastic reception in all the departments
of the Secretariat and in all the colleges
we had the good fortune to visit.


----- Original Message -----
Dear John,
I found this article in my documents in the
archives. I dont know who send it to me as
I copied it into Word. You may have even sent
it. It doesn't matter as long as you get a copy.
I'm going to laminate this too as it is from
another source.
God bless love Ron


From: JOHN R.
To: Ron C.
Subject: Fw: The start of AA in Ireland

Dear Ron,

Thanks for that. I sent it to you. But I had
lost the original copy. So praise God for
miracles that are as modern as tomorrow (or
today's technology), in that it has been
retrieved.

Thanks and Kind Regards, John R

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4163 Bill Lash
From Akron to the Internet From Akron to the Internet 3/7/2007 4:51:00 PM

FROM AKRON to the INTERNET
A time line of A.A. communication
The ways A.A's carry the message have changed over the years. The message
hasn't.

1935: Bill W. & Dr. Bob meet face to face in Akron.
1939: The Big Book is published, carrying the message in print.
1939: First public service message about the Big Book appears in a New York
Times ad, "Have You an Alcoholic Problem?"
1941: NBC begins a 13-part syndicated radio program called Is Alcohol a
Problem in Your Home?
1941: Saturday Evening Post publishes Jack Alexander's article about AA.
1944: The AA Grapevine begins monthly publication as AA's meeting in print.
1945: Paramount Pictures releases the movie The Lost Weekend, based on the
novel by Charles Jackson.
1946: Marty Mann explains alcoholism and AA on the radio show We The People.
1947: First transatlantic telephone call is received by The Alcoholic
Foundation from an Army hospital in Germany.
1948: An AA member explains principles of the program on Hi, Jinx, a morning
radio show on WNBC.
1949: CBS radio broadcasts a 10 episode drama about an alcoholic who finds
AA. GSO is deluged with inquiries.
1953: HAAM, an international fellowship of AA ham radio operators, is
established.
1953: Art Linkletter interviews a masked woman member of AA on his TV show.
1954: The Grapevine asks for the signals of amateur radio operators who
would like to communicate via the airwaves.
1956: An all-AA TV program, Mr. Hope, an actual closed meeting of masked AA
members, debuts in Detroit. AA HQ in Detroit is besieged by telephone calls
and letters from people wanting more information.
1956: Bill W. and Eve M. from general service are anonymous guests on the
popular radio show Martha Deane on WOR.
1960: Broadcast of a radio show called Alcoholism - The Problem and the
Hope, featuring Marty Mann and a GSO staff member.
1962: The Betty Furness radio program features a show on international AA.
1963: The movie Days of Wine and Roses is previewed by GSO staffers before
its release.
l963: WNBC begins broadcasting an AA radio program called Ask an Alcoholic.
1966: AA creates a 60-second TV spot for distribution by public information
committees.
1966: Five groups in two states hold the first telephone conference-call
meeting.
1970: KUAT in Tucson, AZ, launches AA-of-the-Air, a radio show for homebound
AAs.
1973: David Suskind interviews 5 women AAs on his TV show.
1976: Members of AA, Al-Anon, and Alateen are interviewed on the John Gentry
Radio Show on WGCH in Greenwich, CT.
1979: The 29th General Service Conference views and approves Alcoholics
Anonymous - An Inside View, a 28-minute color film produced by AA.
1980s: First AA bulletin boards, online meetings, and chat rooms appear.
1986: Q-Link, one of the first online AA groups, begins meeting, growing to
200 members nationwide in two years.
1988: GSO begins compiling a list of online AA groups.
1989: ABC-TV broadcasts My Name is Bill W. 1990s: TDD (text telephone)
technology helps hard-of-hearing AAs talk with other AAs.
1990: Kansas Area public information establishes AA Message of the Day, a
telephone service featuring daily readings from the "Twelve and Twelve."
1990: Connecticut's public radio show, Open Air New England, puts open AA
meetings on the air.
1992: Thirteen 1-hour AA meetings airing 3 times a week are broadcast on
cable TV stations in Portland, OR.
1995: Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous (OIAA) is established.
2002: The Queensland Young People in AA Convention is netcast worldwide from
Australia.
2002: Online AA reps meet, hoping to establish a service conference for AA
in cyberspace.

From the AA Grapevine with addition:
2003-2004: Today there are literally thousands of Cyberspace Recovery sites
and domains, AA chats, bulletin boards and meetings, a number of which are
live voice meetings regularly scheduled 24 hours around the clock, and in
many languages and countries other than the US.

0 -1 0 0
4164 jblair101
"Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play 3/7/2007 7:47:00 PM

This play has been traveling in recent years and is now off-Broadway.
Here is but one review:



MY NAME IS 'BILL W.,' AND I'M A BAD PLAY
By FRANK SCHECK, New York Post, March 6, 2007


Rating: 1 1/2 stars

March 6, 2007 -- WHO would have guessed a drama about the founders of
Alcoholics Anonymous would be the laugh riot of the year? But that's
the unfortunate result of "Bill W. and Dr. Bob," the well-intentioned
but haplessly executed effort written by novelist Stephen Bergman and
clinical psychologist Janet Surrey that opened last night.

What should have been a powerful and inspirational story plays instead
like a drunken road-show version of "The Producers."

The problem certainly isn't with the source material, which inspired a
superb television movie years ago, "My Name is Bill W.," co-starring
James Woods and James Garner.

This tale of the legendary 1935 meeting between alcoholics Bill Wilson
(Robert Krakovski, delivering an intense performance), a failed New
York stockbroker, and Dr. Bob Smith (Patrick Husted), an Ohio surgeon,
which led to the formation of one of the most influential
organizations in modern history, could have been the stuff of gripping
drama.

Unfortunately, the production, directed by Rick Lombardo and
originally presented at Boston's New Repertory Theatre, goes for a
tone that seems mostly geared for laughs.

The endless and repetitive drunk scenes, especially the ones involving
Dr. Bob, are played with a broadness suited to W.C. Fields - witness
the scene when, after operating on one of his patients while under the
influence, he happily reports, "I'm OK. Patient's OK, too!" (Cue
audience hilarity.)

Things don't improve in the tedious dramatic scenes illustrating
Wilson's strained marriage with his long-suffering wife (Rachel
Harker) and the efforts made by Wilson and the newly sober Smith to
spread their doctrine to a variety of initially less-than-receptive
drunks (all played by Marc Carver).

There are some undeniably moving moments in the show, and it's only
fair to report that the audience - uncommonly large for a new
off-Broadway play - responded with obvious enthusiasm. But it's hard
not to wish that this important tale had been rendered in a more sober
fashion.

BILL W. AND DR. BOB
New World Stages, 340 W. 50th St.; (212) 239-6200.

0 -1 0 0
4165 jblair101
Another New York review of the play, "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" Another New York review of the play, "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" 3/7/2007 7:53:00 PM

Reviews Mar 6, 2007

New York
Bill W. and Dr. Bob
Reviewed By: David Finkle

Robert Krakovski and Patrick Husted in <i>Bill W. and Dr.
Bob</i><br> (© Carol Rosegg)
Robert Krakovski and Patrick Husted in Bill W. and Dr. Bob
(© Carol Rosegg)
"My name is Bill W., and I'm an alcoholic," confides a character
standing under an isolating light at the very start of Bill W. and Dr.
Bob, Stephen Bergman and Janet Surrey's crudely constructed if
undeniably sincere play about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. At
the performance I attended at least a third of the audience members
cheerily responded "Hi, Bill" or "Hey, Bill." When immediately
afterward, a second character standing in a second shock of light
says, "Dr. Bob, alcoholic," the same third of the audience -- now
augmented by a few bandwagon-hoppers -- responded with "Hi, Bob."

If a significant portion of the ticket buyers behaved as if they
were at a church-basement AA meeting, listening to a peer begin a
confessional speech, in a way they were. To use support-group
vernacular, the patrons were present at the ultimate qualification, or
candid revelation of one's drinking history. Since people in recovery
don't usually seek social niceties from their gatherings, neither are
they likely to demand drama turgical niceties in a play that champions
Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith, a couple of supposedly hopeless
drunks who had the breakthrough understanding in 1935 that sharing
humiliating experiences is what could lead chronic drinkers to forego
their debilitating habit.

It's probably helpful to keep in mind while watching this
depiction of this story -- which for many has a weight equivalent to
Moses' bringing the tablets back from Mount Sinai -- that the
literature cherished by AA members often has the homogenized feel of
committee writing. Even Anita Fuchs' set, which consists mostly of
looming panels that travel clumsily back and forth, has the makeshift
appearance of a meeting room.

In a series of introductory scenes, New York stockbroker Bill
Wilson (Robert Krakovski) and Ohio surgeon Bob Smith (Patrick Husted)
are shown literally falling-down drunk, often trying the patience of
their long-suffering wives Lois Wilson (Rachel Harker) and Anne Smith
(Kathleen Doyle).

Even Smith's exposure to the pre-AA Oxford Group precepts doesn't
convince him to stop drinking, but it does prepare him for a desperate
tete-a-tete with the now-sober Wilson, who ends up in Akron on a
business trip and needs to talk to another empathizing boozer to avoid
going on a bender. By the time they finish their inaugural six-hour
chat at the home of local doyenne Henrietta Seiberling (Deanna
Dunmyer), they've established the basic structure for every AA meeting
since.


As the first act ends, the pair realizes they need to confirm
their theory by recruiting one more convert. In act two, they do so --
but only after encountering potential-member difficulties and dealing
with resistance from their dubious wives. It reveals nothing to say
they find their man. The rest is spiritual -- and spirits -- history.

In keeping with the quality of the writing, director Rick
Lombardo's production is rough around the edges. Some of the acting,
particularly during the inebriation segments, is reminiscent of the
Reefer Madness under-marijuana-influence scenes; it's histrionic,
let-this-be-a-lesson-to-you stuff.

On balance, Husted's Dr. Bob is more controlled than Krakovski's
Bill W., while Doyle's Anne Smith is better crafted than Harker's Lois
Wilson. But nuance isn't high on anyone's to-do-list, including Marc
Carver and Deanna Dunmyer, who play everybody else who come in contact
with the men.

The promotional material for Bill W. and Dr. Bob proclaims it the
"first-ever play about the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous." However,
a superior 1989 teleplay, My Name is Bill W., starring James Woods and
James Garner as the seminal figures, exists and is available for home
viewing.

Nevertheless, Bergman and Surrey's script will likely lead to
future productions, especially by amateur and AA groups everywhere.
The birth of Alcoholics Anonymous may not be the greatest story every
told, but without question it's one of the greatest 20th-century
stories -- even when it isn't told greatly.

0 -1 0 0
4166 Bill Lash
The Nixon Letters (1974) The Nixon Letters (1974) 3/8/2007 10:21:00 AM

The Nixon Letters

Richard Nixon was presented with the 1 millionth
copy of the Big Book. It was presented by Dr.
Jack Norris. A picture of Dr. Norris presenting
it to Nixon hangs on the wall at Stepping Stones.
Tom Pike, an early California AA member sober
since 1946 had arranged for this presentation.
Tom had served as Assistant Secretary of
Defense and Special Assistant to President
Eisenhower.

When the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse
and Alcoholism (NIAAA) authorized by the
Hughes Act was created, Tom, along with Marty
Mann and others, was appointed to the NIAAA
advisory committee, and when his term ended
he was replaced by his wife, Katherine.

During Watergate, Tom told me he had written
a letter to Nixon advising him to use the 12
steps, but not because of his drinking. Both
his letter to President Nixon, as well as
President Nixon's reply are included below.


February 1, 1974

President Richard M. Nixon
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC

Dear Mr. President:

Your State of the Union speech delivered to
Congress was easily one of the finest I've
heard you deliver. And I've heard you make a
lot of good ones since you took on Jerry
Voorhees in 1946 out here in the old 12th
C.D.!

Your style, your appearance, your manner, and
what you said were confident, strong, and
impressive. You were every inch the leader in
full command of himself and the situation.
Your whole performance was one to inspire and
rebuild the confidence of all who heard you,
even including the Democrats.

Restoring the national confidence in the
President is the biggest task you have. No
military, industrial, or government leader
can lead without this indispensable ingredient
of confidence. I remember when I was in the
White House in 1956 and 1958 trying to help
Eisenhower and Sherm Adams ward off impending
recession and stem a rising unemployment rate,
our overriding agenda item was how to restore
citizens and consumer confidence and optimism.

As your long time good friend and supporter,
whose faith, confidence, and affection is still
strong today, I would like to make a suggestion
which I hope you will consider seriously. You
may think me presumptuous, but as an old
friend, I am willing to run that risk.

First, a bit of necessary background: it has
been established since time immemorial that
admission of fault is good for the soul and
that to err human and to forgive is divine.
These are two principles found in most of the
world's religions, ancient and modern. They
are also used by modern psychiatrists and
psychologists.

Not surprisingly, because these principles
are basic to the needs of man, they are also
contained in the 12 Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous which you can find in Chapter 5 of
the Big AA book we presented you in April
of last year at the White House. These 12
Steps are forged from simple universal
principles drawn from religion and medicine.
They constitute a program of recovery that
works!

I suggest that you substitute the word,
"Watergate" for "alcohol" in the first step
(which would then read "admitted we were
powerless over Watergate, and that our lives
had become unmanageable"). Then you should
conscientiously apply the rest of the 12 steps
to your own situation. I am confident such a
course of personal action rigorously followed,
would ultimately resolve this difficult dilemma
for you and the country.

My prime suggestion: In whatever way you can,
after carefully studying Steps 4, 5, 6, and
7, put Step 10 into action: -- "when we were
wrong, promptly admitted it".

I know it's late, and there are many
complexities legal and otherwise, but if you
could somehow publicly admit more fully the
mismanagement of Watergate, I am confident
that you personally and the country will
experience relief, surcease, and new hope
beyond your fondest expectations.

(See the attached Harris Poll clip from today's
Los Angeles Times on Public Compassion.)

And why? Simply because the country's President
and its citizens are both human and divine
and have always behaved and reacted like the
creatures of God which indeed they are. I
believe most people know almost instinctively
that to be forgiven, they must forgive, and
who among us has not erred -- does not need
forgiveness?

By using these principles, Len Firestone and
Jonathan Winters, Jim Kemper, and I have
discovered the way out of the baffling personal
dilemma which nearly destroyed us.

You can too, Mr. President! If you would like
to explore this personally and in greater
depth, please call on me. Nothing would please
me more.

Katherine's and my fervent prayer for you and
Pat is that God will make His will known to
you and give you the power to carry it out.

Faithfully yours,
Thomas P. Pike.

P.S. You demonstrated good understanding on
Step 11 when you urged those attending the
prayer breakfast yesterday "to try through
prayer to find out what God wants America to
be rather than to ask Him always to see that
what we believe America to be prevails."
Step 11: "Sought through prayer and meditation
to improve our conscious contact with God as
we understood Him, seeking only for knowledge
of His will for us and the power to carry it
out."

T.P.P.

- - - -

POLL FIND COMPASSION FOR NIXON
Chicago (UPI) -- Watergate developments have
damaged President Nixon's public esteem but
they also are evoking a sense of public
compassion, according to the latest survey by
pollster Louis Harris. This was the conclusion
drawn when 56% of those queried agreed with
a statement that the President is "trying to
do his best in an almost impossible job." Only
38% disagreed.

- - - -

THE WHITE HOUSE
Washington

February 25, 1974

Dear Tom:

Before another day passes, I wanted you to know
that I received your very thoughtful letter of
February 1. Many times in the past I have had
occasion to thank you, but I must say once
again how much it means to know I have been
able to count on the loyalty and understanding
of so many long-time friends.

I deeply appreciate your suggestions and the
genuine spirit of concern and goodwill in which
they were made. As you know, in several
televised press conferences I accepted
responsibility along the lines you discussed.
Further, on a number of occasions I have pledged
my full cooperation to the Special Prosecutor
and to the Judiciary Committee so that the
investigations can be concluded, the guilty
parties brought to justice, and those innocent
of any wrongdoing may be cleared and, hopefully,
have their good names and reputations restored.
However, I have also stated that I will follow
the precedent set by every other United States
President of never doing anything that weakens
the Office of the President or impairs the
ability of future Presidents to make the great
decisions that are so essential to this Nation
and to the world. This has been a difficult
period not only for me but for all Americans,
and when this and related matters are brought
to a full and just resolution, I am confident
the majority of the American people will come
to understand that the trust they placed in me
has not been violated.

In the meanwhile, it is a source of constant
reassurance to me to have the support of
friends like Katherine and you and to be
included in your prayers. Pat joins me in
sending you both our warmest personal regards.

Sincerely, RN

Mr. Thomas P. Pike
611 West Sixth Street
Los Angeles, California 90017.

0 -1 0 0
4167 Glenn Chesnut
Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act 3/12/2007 1:44:00 PM

The two most important pieces of legislation
about alcoholism in the United States were
the Prohibition Amendment and the Hughes Act.
The first ended up being widely regarded as
a failure.* The second was not only a success,
it still lies at the base of some of the most
effective help being given to American
alcoholics even today, over thirty-five years
later. Most modern American alcoholism treatment
facilities, along with the kind of alcoholism
counselors whom they use and sometimes a
significant part of their funding, are based
on the provisions of the Hughes Act.

The Hughes Act was put on the legislative
agenda in the U.S. Congress by Senator Harold
Hughes from Iowa, who had served a series of
terms as governor of Iowa before being elected
to the U.S. Senate, in spite of admitting
openly that he was a recovered alcoholic.
Following the precedent set by Mrs. Marty Mann,
he and Tom Pike and other major political
figures freely acknowledged their alcoholism
in public, but made no mention of their
membership in A.A. except in private.

In private of course, we can see Tom Pike not
only mentioning his A.A. membership to President
Nixon, but preaching the twelve steps to the
president in this fascinating letter that Bill
Lash has found.

Of special interest to us in this group: Nancy
Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was
another of the key political figures during
the period when the Hughes Act was being passed
and implemented (1970-1980). She was the
senatorial aide whom Senator Hughes assigned
to do whatever had to been done in order to
get the legislation passed. On many occasions,
Nancy also played a key role in coordinating
the efforts of the many other A.A. members in
Washington D.C. and elsewhere who were involved
in gaining passage of the bill.

President Nixon was one of the Washington
figures who opposed the Hughes Act. For a
long time after its passage, he refused to
sign it, which would have been the equivalent
of vetoing it. Tom Pike, whom Nixon regarded
as a good friend and staunch supporter, was
one of the influential A.A. people who kept
up the pressure on Nixon in their private
contacts with him until he finally grudgingly
put his signature on the bill.

Part of the problem was that Hughes and some
of his supporters were Democrats. Pike, as a
devoted Republican, was able to add his voice
in support of the Hughes Act and raise the
issue above the partisan level.

For a full account of the enactment and
implementation of the Hughes Act, see Nancy
Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends:
The Politics of Alcoholism.

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html
______________________________

*During the Prohibition Era, the number of
people in the United States who died of
cirrhosis of the liver and other strongly
alcohol related diseases underwent a slight
but nevertheless significant and measurable
decline. On that ground, it could be regarded
as a public health success.

The two problems were that (1) it did nothing
effective to prevent true hardcore chronic
alcoholics from obtaining alcohol. It was not
a solution at all to the problem of alcoholism.
Real alcoholics obtained easily available
illegal alcohol or brewed or fermented their
own alcoholic beverages. And (2) the rise of
criminal associations for importing or making
illegal alcohol produced murder, violence,
and lawbreaking on a scale which the government
could not deal with effectively.

0 -1 0 0
4168 Arthur S
Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks as author of Big Book) 3/8/2007 7:12:00 PM

The hyperbole associated with the Section
Mexico situation is no less extreme than that
of the German situation.

The paragraph below, by a Section Mexico member
named Alberto P, is an example. It speaks
volumes and is posted on the web site containing
a copy of the Mexican copyright document being
portrayed as a deception on the part of Wayne P.

(From the web site): "[editor's note: In Mexico,
one trusted servant and long time AA member,
who served more than 2000 AA groups was
sentenced for one year of prison, because of
alleged copyright violation on August 4th 1995.
This was possible because in 1992 AAWS had
registered the book in Mexico as sole copyright
owner. The registration states, that Wgne (sic)
P___ is the author of the book "Alcoholics
Anonymous" and the English-Spanish translator
is Jose A L G___. It seems to be a common
pattern, that AAWS employs lies, falsified
evidence and wrong allegations to stop the AA
message from being carried and maintain a
monopoly.]"

The statement gives the impression that someone
was jailed for a year. But later the web site
states: "The sentence was to put the accused
(an alcoholic Trustee) in jail for one year.
This light sentence can be paid through a fine
of five thousand New Pesos (about $850.00).
This fine has already been paid, and the Trustee
won't have to go to jail."

I'll come back to Alberto P's statement at the
end of this reply.

An anomaly in a document does not constitute
a conspiracy, a lie or illegality. The claim
of Wayne P deceptively portraying himself as
having written the book is irresponsible.
Fair-minded people can arrive at much different
conclusions rather than echoing baseless
charges.

The legal (not dictionary) term "author" can,
in many instances, be anyone who holds copyright
ownership to a work whether they actually wrote
it or not. The information below is from the
Cornell University web site regarding sections
of the US Code (Federal laws) applying to
copyright ownership:

Initial Ownership:

Copyright in a work protected under this title
vests initially in the author or authors of
the work. The authors of a joint work are
co-owners of copyright in the work.

Works Made for Hire:

In the case of a work made for hire, the
employer or other person for whom the work was
prepared is considered the author for purposes
of this title, and, unless the parties have
expressly agreed otherwise in a written
instrument signed by them, owns all of the
rights comprised in the copyright.

Transfer of Ownership:

(1) The ownership of a copyright may be
transferred in whole or in part by any means
of conveyance or by operation of law, and may
be bequeathed by will or pass as personal
property by the applicable laws of intestate
succession.

(2) Any of the exclusive rights comprised in
a copyright, including any subdivision of any
of the rights specified by section 106, may be
transferred as provided by clause (1) and owned
separately. The owner of any particular
exclusive right is entitled, to the extent of
that right, to all of the protection and
remedies accorded to the copyright owner by
this title.

On April 22, 1940, Bill W and Hank P
transferred ownership of all their interests
in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" to the
Alcoholic Foundation. The transfer included
Bill's initial copyright ownership filed
in April 1939.

The Alcoholic Foundation was later renamed to
the "General Service Board of AA" and their
subsidiary corporate publishing arm, initially
known as "Works Publishing Inc," later became
"AA Publishing Inc" and later still became "AA
World Services (AAWS) Inc." They hold for
safekeeping and manage AA's copyrights and
trademarks.

Given that the Big Book in question in Mexico,
was the 3rd edition published in 1976 (5 years
after Bill W's death) the revised story section
(about 2/3 of the book) plus new preface and
foreword likely put it into the category of
"works made for hire" if specialists were
hired to compile the new edition as is often
done for publications projects. In any event,
the book goes way beyond the so-called "first
164 pages" that Bill W is specifically
identified with as the initial author.

When a corporation holds copyright ownership,
its chief (or a designated) officer typically
acts in behalf of the corporation in legal
matters requiring a signature or personal
identity on a legal instrument.

In April 1989 Wayne P became the General
Manager of GSO. That also legally made him
"President of AAWS, Inc." It occurred in the
same year as the Mexican copyright paperwork
of August 1989. In terms of putting a name down
for the "author" whoever typed Wayne's name
on the document could well have done so to
reflect his capacity and authority as President
and chief officer of AAWS (the owner of the
copyright).

This is probably more likely than unfairly
claiming Wayne deceitfully portrayed himself
as having written the book. Alberto P's
statement above claims that Wayne's name
appeared as "author of all [I repeat all] the
literature of Alcoholics Anonymous, at the
National Information Center of Copyrights of
the SEP (Public Education Secretariat) in
Mexico."

My assumption is that Wayne's name continually
appeared for all the literature because he
was President and chief officer of AAWS, the
legal copyright holder of all the literature
being submitted for Mexican copyright
protection.

Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: Mitchell K.
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007
Subject: Re: AA in Mexico (Wayne Parks
as author of Big Book)

Very interesting reply. I did see a few remarks about
LAWS and pretty much the so-called rule of law. I
didn't however see anyone mention that the author of
the Big Book as registered at the copyright office in
Mexico is Wayne Parks. It appears that in order to get
a valid copyright in Mexico there has to be a living
author. Of course, Bill Wilson wasn't living when that
book was copyrighted in Mexico. Since we are so
interested in the law as Arthur wrote - "While it may
be hard for some AA members to swallow, bodies of
codified principles exist that take precedence over
the Steps,Traditions and Concepts. They consist of
> state and national laws and treaties having the
effect of law"

Is Wayne Parks the legitimate author of the Big Book
or are some laws and principles such as truth exempt
here? I am sure someone will write in with the copy of
the actual document bearing Wayne's signature.

Are we interested in THE truth or some truth or a
selective truth. After all, there is no crime unless
one gets caught.

0 -1 0 0
4169 Bill Lash
One of AA''s 1st Women One of AA''s 1st Women 3/12/2007 8:39:00 AM

For Men Only?
Anonymous
AA Grapevine – June 1960

One of AA's first woman members describes her
pioneering struggle to gain acceptance of her
sex in what was exclusively a man's world of
sobriety.

WHEN I attended my first AA meeting on April 11,
1939 I was the only woman alcoholic there. And
I might not have been there had there not been
one before me whose story I had read in the
manuscript of a book called "Alcoholics
Anonymous." Some weeks before, my psychiatrist
had handed me a red cardboard-covered document,
saying flatly that he had about given up hope
of being able to help me after nearly a year of
intensive treatment in the sanitarium he headed.
But, he added, he had just read something that
might help, and he wanted me to read it. He said
little more, except to remark that this group
of men (the emphasis is mine) seemed to have
discovered a way out of the same trouble I had
-- drinking.

I took the book in trembling hands and went
back to my room with a wild surge of hope
lifting me up the stairs three steps at a time.
As I read, the hope swelled and sank again and
again. My trouble had a name: alcoholism. It
was music to my ears. Alcoholism was a disease.
Shame, guilt and self-condemnation rolled away
like heavy fog, letting light and air into my
heart again. I could breathe; I could bear to
live. Alcoholism was "an 'allergy' of the body
coupled with an obsession of the mind"; there
was no known way of reversing the sensitivity
of the body to alcohol, therefore an alcoholic
could never safely drink again. This was the
first reason I had ever heard that made sense
to me. I could accept it. I could face a life
without drinking, because I had to; there was
no choice -- my body wouldn't let me. It wasn't
just a question of mental aberration after all;
I wasn't insane, or hopelessly neurotic; I had
a disease. And thousands of other people had it,
too. I wasn't the only one; I wasn't so peculiar,
so different, so alone beyond the pale. I had
a disease! My mind made a song of hope out of
those words. Then came the let-down.

This handful of men had found an answer to the
"obsession of the mind" that drove them to
drink against their own will, against their own
desire, against not only their better judgment
but against their own good. That answer was God.
My hope sank. This was not for me. I couldn't
use this answer. I had lost God in my teens. I
had outgrown this primitive notion. I was an
intellectual, a worldly, widely-travelled,
well-educated once-successful woman. A woman.
My hope completely disappeared. This was a
man's book, entirely about men, obviously
written by and for men, and a particular kind
of men at that -- religious men. Well, that was
that. I wasn't religious, and I wasn't a man.
I'd have to find my own way out after all. I
was still alone.

And so I argued with the doctor, day after day
and week after week, about the God business.
Patiently he let me get my arrogant, infantile
arguments off my chest. Firmly he would send
me back to "read some more," for I was creeping
through the book, dragging my feet over each
arguable phrase. He had quickly answered my
complaint that this was a book for men only by
saying simply, "What's so different about
women suffering the same illness?" But this
had seemed no more satisfactory an answer to
me than his careful parrying of my arguments
against God. I had consigned myself to outer
darkness and there I would stay, alone with my
ego and my pride.

Until the day came; the day the crisis in my
personal life did exactly what the book had
said it would. It raised the bottom to where I
precariously hung, and I fell right into God's
hands. Gloriously, joyously, ecstatically
surrendered to complete faith in a Power
greater than myself. I was free. So free that
I knew I could walk out my third-story window
and keep right on walking. God supported me at
a level I had never dreamed was possible, and
there was no prison -- neither of my own making,
nor of the wood and stone that made the
sanitarium, nor of gravity itself -- that
could contain me. I was free!

A vestige of my old suspicions sent me running
to the doctor. Was I now completely mad? If
so, I liked it. Sanity was never like this; I
felt wonderful, happy, radiant, bursting with
love and delight. The grass had never been so
green, the sky so blue, people so nice and
so good. The world was a divinely beautiful
place . . . . I was free. "Perhaps you are,"
the doctor said, "for I believe you have had
an authentic spiritual experience. Hold on to
it, and go back and read that book!"

I did, and it seemed a different book. True,
it was still obviously by and for men, but it
held truth for me and I gobbled it up. For
the first time, I read it through to the end.
And there I found, among the personal stories,
one entitled "A Woman's Story." Thank You, my
newly found God. I might have known You would
supply everything I needed.

For a while it seemed the book held everything
I needed. I was reluctant to meet the people.
I was too busy revelling in a state of mind I
had never known: a beatific state of pure
delight in living. Yet I was really a little
afraid -- of what these men would be like, of
how they would accept me, a woman. Would one
other woman be enough? Would she like me and
accept me? Would she be there if I went to meet
them? Would the reality of flesh and blood
spoil my ecstatic dream? Was it a dream?

Weeks passed and the good doctor took matters
into his own hands; he made a date for me to
meet one of these men and his wife, and to go
with them to a meeting in Brooklyn. I was
warmly received; first names were the rule,
they told me, and Mrs. M. -- Sandy -- made me
feel more than welcome. We had dinner and set
off for Brooklyn, to Bill and Lois's brownstone
house. The first floor seemed crowded as we
entered. I saw many women among the crowd, but
no one looked as if they had ever had a drink.
It looked like any friendly gathering in any
home, with far too many strangers for my taste.
I flew upstairs to leave my coat and lingered
there. Lois came up and put her arm around my
shoulder. "We want you down with us," she said.
"You are very welcome." And she looked as if
she meant it. I think I have never seen such
sheer lovingness shining out of a person -- it
warmed and comforted me. Lois, a non-alcoholic
wife, taught me about love. But that's another
story.

I was made welcome, and yet -- did I notice just
a flicker of uncertainty? Just a slight wariness,
a kind of disbelief on the part of these men
that I could really be one of them? I did,
for some of their questions revealed it. I was
the youngest person there, by far. And I was
a woman. I was fairly well-dressed, was
currently an inmate of a rather expensive
private sanitarium (they didn't know I was
stony broke, was there on a "scholarship" for
free), and was obviously from a "good" background
-- well-brought-up, well-educated, and
apparently meeting the specifications for that
old-fashioned label "a lady." These things
are not usually associated with drunken
women, even in the minds of drunken men. This
I knew from my own experience.

So I identified myself, and found myself
telling the naked truth about my drinking as
I had never been able to do even with my
doctor. And I noted the small intake of breath,
the widening of eyes, the retreating but still
dormant suspicion in some of my questioners.
But for enough of them, I made the grade. I
was accepted as an authentic alcoholic, and
therefore a qualified participant in the
meeting. There were a number of non-wives and
friends present, for this night was an occasion:
the first printed and bound copy of the book
"Alcoholics Anonymous" was on display. I knew
I was in when I was asked to sign the copy,
along with the rest. And I further knew I was
in when I found myself talking almost exclusively
to the men who were alcoholics. They so
surrounded me, and asked so many questions,
that I knew I was indeed a rarity -- something
of an occasion myself.

As soon as I decently could, I asked about the
woman whose story was in the book. She was much
older than I, with grown children. Her name was
Florence. No one seemed to know her except
Bill and Lois, for she was in Washington where
one of the earliest members of the group, a man
named Fitz, was trying to get something started.
He was having a very rough time, for all the
prospects, including Florence, kept getting
drunk. I breathed a prayer of thanks that she
had stayed sober long enough to write her story
-- for me. Bill said that she and Fitz would
be coming to New York soon, and I could meet
her. There were hopes, Bill said, that the one
other group, in Akron, might have a woman member
soon -- they were working on one. But here in
New York I had to face the fact that I was,
indeed, alone. Unique. I didn't like it. I had
been feeling alone and unique for far too long.
At least the men here were like me. Or were
they?

I began to understand the faint uncertainty,
the wariness, the disbelief. I began to wonder
myself if this program would work for women.
I could deal with their questions about my
rights to the title of alcoholic -- I had
qualifications to match anyone's -- but only
time could deal with their unexpressed doubts
as to the ability of a woman to live their
program successfully. And only time did the
job.

The first year was the hardest. I had plenty
of prospects but few results. All that long hot
summer I went into New York once a week to the
meeting, hoping a woman might appear, find me,
know that she was not alone and unique, and
stay. Florence came, and left, without any real
contact being established between us -- she
did not seem to want to talk. I saw her only
once again, sober, and then she died on a
drunk.

I found it difficult to convince the older
members that I wasn't a freak, the only one
of my kind, and to convince the newer men that
there was such a thing as a woman alcoholic and
that I was one. The newer men often found it
difficult to conceal their disgust at the idea,
and more than once I heard, "If there's one
thing I can't stand, it's to see a woman drunk!"
They just couldn't believe that women couldn't
help it any more than they could. Most of the
men were wonderful, and fully accepted me as
one of themselves, but there remained a curious
loneliness, nonetheless.

Finally, in October, came Nona, whom I had met
when I entered the sanitarium nearly two years
before. She came in wholeheartedly, a quiet
girl not wanting to be noticed, but she was
there. In November I went with Bill and Lois
to Akron and called on the woman (drunk in bed)
for whom they had had hopes, but I was no more
successful than the men had been. I went on to
Chicago where Sylvia lived -- Sylvia who in
October had gone to Cleveland to find AA in the
home of an early member, and who had returned
to Chicago full of sobriety and zeal to help
others. Now there were three of us the country
over -- but three is a crowd. Three can be neither
alone nor unique, and we were all three too
different to be the same kind of a freak!

We used to hold long discussions as to why it
was so difficult to help women, why they couldn't
stay sober, couldn't make this program work.
Some of the men thought it was because women
were more dishonest than men, less direct.
"Sneakier" was a word they used. I had to agree
that this fitted most cases and that it made
my self-appointed task of getting women into AA
almost impossible. But I thought I understood
the reasons for this -- and I still think they
are the reasons that keep many women from
success in AA.

We have a double standard in our society. Many
things that are acceptable, or at least
forgivable, in men are not in women. Although
the high pedestal on which women used to be
enthroned is slowly descending to a more
realistic level (and most women are duly
grateful for this entry into more comfortable
realms), it is doing so only in fits and starts,
like a balky elevator. There are still areas
of behavior that are forbidden to "nice" women,
and excessive drinking is one of these. Many
men who are themselves alcoholic and because
of this have committed every sin the book, are
inclined to look down their noses at women who
have suffered the same mishaps, and for the
same reason. They can't be "nice." Many non-
alcoholic wives are inclined to be even more
sure of this last statement, and not to want
their husbands to associate with such
questionable types.

Women know this, of course, and the moment their
drinking shows signs of being different, even
slightly out of control, they instinctively go
for cover, and bend all their effort to
concealment. They become past masters at
deception, at hiding their condition and the
cause of it -- their bottles. Their opportunities
are great if they are housewives, as many of
them are. They are alone and in command of
their environment for most of their waking hours.
By the time their control is completely gone
and they are discovered, they have built a
pattern of deception that is nothing short of
superb. Such a fantastic construction, built
so painstakingly for so long, does not fall to
pieces easily, and they have trained themselves
so well to safeguard and protect it under all
circumstances, even helpless drunkenness, that
they often cannot relinquish this "protective
coloration" even when they finally want to and
know that they must if they are to live.

The double standard has created another hazard
for the woman seeking help in AA. Men are
not supposed to care too much about "what the
neighbors say" or "what will Joe think of
you," but women most definitely are. Girls are
brought up to consider other peoples' opinions
of them, first and foremost. When a woman starts
drinking too much, and then uncontrolledly,
this becomes a prime bugaboo that haunts her
sober moments. Unfortunately, the name
Alcoholics Anonymous is frequently all mixed
up in her already mixed-up thoughts with the
total unacceptability of alcoholism, alcoholics,
and everything to do with both, to most of
the people she knows and whose opinions of her
she has been taught to value above all else.
How can she fly in the face of all she holds
most dear, and pin this taboo label on herself?
Better to hide in the bowels of the earth, or
the bottom of a bottle.

Finally, there are the misconceptions of an
earlier more prudish day, when only "loose
women" were supposed to drink; ergo, women who
drank were "loose women," and if they drank
badly, they were "lost women." The scarlet
letter has hung like a terrible barrier in
front of many women who desperately needed what
AA had to offer them. And I may add that the
scarlet letter has been pinned on many innocent
alcoholics -- whose only sins (?) were those of
alcoholism -- by self-righteous or fearful
nonalcoholic women -- and men, too. Man's
inhumanity to man might better read "women's
inhumanity to women" particularly in the smaller
communities of our enlightened country.

These, I think, are some of the valid reasons
why the growth of the number of women in AA
was painfully slow at first, and even now is
amazingly greater in the big cities than in
even their own suburbs, let alone smaller towns.
Yet growth there has been, and a commensurate
change in attitude both within and outside of
AA. For women have recovered and gone back to
their own close little societies to talk about
it, to teach them to know better, to let their
own stories be known in the hope that they
might reach into some other room, secluded and
well-hidden as their own once was. Women who
have embraced AA have found the God-given courage
to face their whispering accusers, and to face
them down; to hold on to their sobriety and to
build from it a good life, open to the most
critical inspection; to accept new values that
do not give weight to "what the neighbors think
-- or say"; and to rely on their own conscience
in communion with their own God as they
understand Him, for judgment of their worth.

All this is not easy. I think it must be said
that because of cultural and environmental
patterns which are beyond her control, it is
not yet the same for a woman to have alcoholism
as it is for a man. It is much, much more
difficult, and the chances of finding help and
achieving recovery are undeniably less. Yet
there has been improvement over the past twenty
years, and I believe that the situation will
become progressively better as alcoholism is
more widely accepted for the disease that it
is, and the unfair stigma gradually disappears.
Public acceptance will one day bring about the
cultural and environmental changes that are
beginning to be evident. The double standard
has no place in the realm of illness, and never
did have. Once alcoholism is firmly esconced
in that realm, much of the old prejudice
against women alcoholics will die a natural
death.

But it is a long, slow process. Five years after
I came into AA, in the spring of 1944, the
several large AA groups in Pittsburgh asked me
down to speak at a public meeting. They told
me outright that they wanted to show Pittsburgh
that there was such a thing as a woman alcoholic,
and that she could recover. Still, it was many
months after that before they got their first
woman member. Groups have written me from all
over the country to say that after four and
five years of intense activity and growth, they
had yet to have a woman member; I have made
countless trips and many speeches to show
myself and give evidence of the possibility.
This was a major reason why I temporarily gave
up my doubly precious anonymity (being a woman
and therefore vulnerable to scarlet letters
and a host of other unpleasant things) when I
entered public work in this field. No one was
ever happier to resume that protective cloak
after two years of both veiled and crass
remarks and looks. It takes great faith and
plenty of sheer strength to be an avowed woman
alcoholic. I am both humbled and proud of my
sex as I see the growing numbers who dare --
for the sake of all those others still
undeclared, still suffering the tortures of
the damned, alone.

Things move. During the late 1940s I had many
letters from lone woman members, seeking
comfort, company, and advice on how to find
and bring in others. Then in the 1950s I began
to be asked to come and speak at luncheons
and dinners of just AA women. I thought the
corner had been turned, that no one could ever
again imagine AA was "for men only." Imagine
my shock and horror when in December 1959,
twenty years and eight months after my solo
landing in AA, a woman member in a great mid-
western city I was visiting told me of several
AA groups in the city who would not receive
women as members -- stated flatly that they
did not want women in their groups. Several
men with us corroborated her story, adding,
before I could catch my breath, that it didn't
matter so much in a big city like theirs where
there were plenty of other groups a woman could
go to, but what bothered them was the fact
that this was true in many small cities and
towns where there was only one group, so that
in effect this meant denying AA to women
alcoholics.

I could hardly believe my ears, but the people
who told me this were not erratic, newly sober
alcoholics, but longtime members who know their
area well and traverse it frequently. If this
is so, in the mid-west, it may very well be so
in many parts of our vast country, especially
in sparsely settled areas with only small towns.

There obviously remains much to be done. After
twenty years, women coming into AA are still
pioneers. Those who make statistical studies
claim that there is only one woman alcoholic
for every five-and-a-half men. The records of
public outpatient clinics seem to bear out
this figure. But there are many physicians in
private practice, where a confidence is
considered as sacred as in the confessional,
who state categorically the women alcoholics
outnumber the men in their practice. Certainly
in the big cities, one often finds the women
outnumbering the men at closed meetings. Is
it just that women alcoholics more readily find
their way to the anonymity of the big cities?
Or are there more of us than even we think?

Once again, only time will tell us. But I hope
and pray it won't have to be another twenty
years for all those out there alone.

0 -1 0 0
4170 Mary Latowski
Re: From Akron to the Internet From Akron to the Internet 3/8/2007 8:54:00 AM

Bill, this is very interesting but I was
wondering if you think Loners International
and World Hello might also be included?

Mary Pat
South Bend


On 3/7/07, Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> FROM AKRON to the INTERNET
> A time line of A.A. communication
> The ways A.A's carry the message have changed over the years. The message
> hasn't.
>
> 1935: Bill W. & Dr. Bob meet face to face in Akron.
> 1939: The Big Book is published, carrying the message in print.
> 1939: First public service message about the Big Book appears in a New
> York
> Times ad, "Have You an Alcoholic Problem?"
> 1941: NBC begins a 13-part syndicated radio program called Is Alcohol a
> Problem in Your Home?
> 1941: Saturday Evening Post publishes Jack Alexander's article about AA.
> 1944: The AA Grapevine begins monthly publication as AA's meeting in
> print.
> 1945: Paramount Pictures releases the movie The Lost Weekend, based on the
> novel by Charles Jackson.
> 1946: Marty Mann explains alcoholism and AA on the radio show We The
> People.
> 1947: First transatlantic telephone call is received by The Alcoholic
> Foundation from an Army hospital in Germany.
> 1948: An AA member explains principles of the program on Hi, Jinx, a
> morning
> radio show on WNBC.
> 1949: CBS radio broadcasts a 10 episode drama about an alcoholic who finds
> AA. GSO is deluged with inquiries.
> 1953: HAAM, an international fellowship of AA ham radio operators, is
> established.
> 1953: Art Linkletter interviews a masked woman member of AA on his TV
> show.
> 1954: The Grapevine asks for the signals of amateur radio operators who
> would like to communicate via the airwaves.
> 1956: An all-AA TV program, Mr. Hope, an actual closed meeting of masked
> AA
> members, debuts in Detroit. AA HQ in Detroit is besieged by telephone
> calls
> and letters from people wanting more information.
> 1956: Bill W. and Eve M. from general service are anonymous guests on the
> popular radio show Martha Deane on WOR.
> 1960: Broadcast of a radio show called Alcoholism - The Problem and the
> Hope, featuring Marty Mann and a GSO staff member.
> 1962: The Betty Furness radio program features a show on international AA.
> 1963: The movie Days of Wine and Roses is previewed by GSO staffers before
> its release.
> l963: WNBC begins broadcasting an AA radio program called Ask an
> Alcoholic.
> 1966: AA creates a 60-second TV spot for distribution by public
> information
> committees.
> 1966: Five groups in two states hold the first telephone conference-call
> meeting.
> 1970: KUAT in Tucson, AZ, launches AA-of-the-Air, a radio show for
> homebound
> AAs.
> 1973: David Suskind interviews 5 women AAs on his TV show.
> 1976: Members of AA, Al-Anon, and Alateen are interviewed on the John
> Gentry
> Radio Show on WGCH in Greenwich, CT.
> 1979: The 29th General Service Conference views and approves Alcoholics
> Anonymous - An Inside View, a 28-minute color film produced by AA.
> 1980s: First AA bulletin boards, online meetings, and chat rooms appear.
> 1986: Q-Link, one of the first online AA groups, begins meeting, growing
> to
> 200 members nationwide in two years.
> 1988: GSO begins compiling a list of online AA groups.
> 1989: ABC-TV broadcasts My Name is Bill W. 1990s: TDD (text telephone)
> technology helps hard-of-hearing AAs talk with other AAs.
> 1990: Kansas Area public information establishes AA Message of the Day, a
> telephone service featuring daily readings from the "Twelve and Twelve."
> 1990: Connecticut's public radio show, Open Air New England, puts open AA
> meetings on the air.
> 1992: Thirteen 1-hour AA meetings airing 3 times a week are broadcast on
> cable TV stations in Portland, OR.
> 1995: Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous (OIAA) is established.
> 2002: The Queensland Young People in AA Convention is netcast worldwide
> from
> Australia.
> 2002: Online AA reps meet, hoping to establish a service conference for AA
> in cyberspace.
>
> From the AA Grapevine with addition:
> 2003-2004: Today there are literally thousands of Cyberspace Recovery
> sites
> and domains, AA chats, bulletin boards and meetings, a number of which are
> live voice meetings regularly scheduled 24 hours around the clock, and in
> many languages and countries other than the US.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4171 Stephen Gentile
RE: "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play "Bill W. and Dr. Bob" the play 3/10/2007 12:26:00 PM

Many times throughout the show Dr.Bob callled
out to Bill with the name "Abercrombie." Was
this a nick name of Bill's or was this plain
garble?

I first saw a prelude in Akron last year at
Founders Day weekend by the Gatehouse. They
were advertising its opening coming up this
year.

On opening night Coffee was served in the
aisles. On the 7th it was stopped permanently.
I was at the show and thought it was a well-
rounded little show with a good reflection of
AA history with slight overacting. I doubt if
any non-AA would appreciate this performance or
be able to give a favorable review. Any AA
would find it warming. Most were talking
favorably after.

Opinion of course.

Steve G in NJ

- - - -

Note from the moderator: Dr. Bob liked to
give people strange nicknames. He sometimes
called James D. (J. D.) Holmes by that
nickname "Abercrombie."

J. D. said he was the tenth person to get
sober in A.A. -- counting Bill W. and Dr. Bob
as A.A. Number One and Number Two. J. D. was
the founder of the first A.A. group in Indiana

http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html
http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html

In his memoirs, J. D. says (of Dr. Bob):

"He was great on slang. He used to call me
'Abercrombie.' Why, I don't know. He'd call
up and say, 'Bring your frail over,' meaning
my wife. He had a peculiar vocabulary, but
a wonderful one. He was an educated man, but
some of his slang you didn't hear the ordinary
person use."

I've heard that Dr. Bob sometimes called
Bill W. "Willy." But did he ever call him
"Abercrombie"? What do our experts in the
group say on that?

Glenn C., South Bend

0 -1 0 0
4172 Gallery Photography
Proxy battle in Akron Proxy battle in Akron 3/10/2007 2:17:00 PM

Do any of you know more details about the Proxy
battle Bill W. lost, in Akron, just prior to
meeting Doctor Bob?

I've also looked up information on just what
a proxy battle is. I think I understand but it
would help if I had more specific information
on how and what the fight is about.

If I understand it correctly, Bill was like
some "middle man" fighting between company and
stockholders as a substitute for them fighting
each other directly.

Well, who was he fighting and what was he
fighting for?

Hope you can help me understand this better.

Thanks.

Rotax Steve

0 -1 0 0
4173 Gallery Photography
Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? 3/10/2007 2:22:00 PM

Is there any historical information of amends
made to Bill W. from Ebby T.?

If so, do any of you have a brief summary or
can direct me to any books? (particularly page
numbers)

Thanks.

Rotax Steve
Nangi namaj perez

0 -1 0 0
4174 ROGER WHEATLEY
Re: AA history in Great Britain AA history in Great Britain 3/12/2007 7:14:00 AM

The GB GSO has recently moved to new space at
10 Toft Green, York, England. There is an
abundance of archives and a growing interest
in that country. They will soon be on display
in a room at the new office space for visitors
to view similar to the GSO archives in New York.

Over the past few years, parts of these
archives have been displayed throughout the
countries of England, Scotland, and Wales in
Archives "Road Shows". The growing interest
in archive work led to last years General
Service Conference approving a pamphlet on
the subject and this years conference will
consider the draft of a guideline for
archivists.

Roger W.

0 -1 0 0
4175 John Lee
Re: Proxy battle in Akron Proxy battle in Akron 3/13/2007 3:12:00 PM

No. Bill was representing a group of stockholders
who wanted to take over management of the Akron
company. In a proxy fight an individual obtains
"proxies," a document which constitutes legal
permission to vote for the stockholder who
supplied the proxy. A prospective management
group contacts stockholders with large voting
blocks of stock, and asks those stockholders
for their proxies. Stockholders elect the board
of directors for a corporation. The board of
directors selects the officers of the company,
such as president, vice-president, treasurer.

0 -1 0 0
4176 Arthur S
RE: Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act 3/12/2007 4:23:00 PM

To add to the commentary on prohibition:

The 18th amendment to the US Constitution,
prohibiting alcohol, was ratified on January
16, 1919. On October 28 of that year, Congress
passed the Volstead (or National Prohibition)
Act over President Wilson’s veto.

Terms such as “bootlegger” “speakeasy” and
“bathtub gin” entered the national vocabulary.

As a physician, Dr Bob could obtain distilled
alcohol "for medicinal purposes" with
virtually no effort. Prior to repealing the
18th amendment, beer was legalized and Dr.
Bob writes about it ("the beer experiment")
in his story. Bill also wrote in his story
about the concoctions he made in his home
("Bathtub gin, two bottles a day, and often
three, got to be routine").

On December 5, 1933, the 21st amendment to
the US Constitution was ratified repealing
the 18th amendment. The almost decade and
a half prohibition of alcohol was widely
disregarded and yielded fortunes for organized
crime in bootlegging and smuggling.

Both Bill W and Dr Bob did some of the worst
of their drinking at a time when alcohol
was illegal in the US.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 12:45 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers group
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Richard Nixon, Tom Pike, and the Hughes Act

The two most important pieces of legislation
about alcoholism in the United States were
the Prohibition Amendment and the Hughes Act.
The first ended up being widely regarded as
a failure.* The second was not only a success,
it still lies at the base of some of the most
effective help being given to American
alcoholics even today, over thirty-five years
later. Most modern American alcoholism treatment
facilities, along with the kind of alcoholism
counselors whom they use and sometimes a
significant part of their funding, are based
on the provisions of the Hughes Act.

The Hughes Act was put on the legislative
agenda in the U.S. Congress by Senator Harold
Hughes from Iowa, who had served a series of
terms as governor of Iowa before being elected
to the U.S. Senate, in spite of admitting
openly that he was a recovered alcoholic.
Following the precedent set by Mrs. Marty Mann,
he and Tom Pike and other major political
figures freely acknowledged their alcoholism
in public, but made no mention of their
membership in A.A. except in private.

In private of course, we can see Tom Pike not
only mentioning his A.A. membership to President
Nixon, but preaching the twelve steps to the
president in this fascinating letter that Bill
Lash has found.

Of special interest to us in this group: Nancy
Olson, the founder of the AAHistoryLovers, was
another of the key political figures during
the period when the Hughes Act was being passed
and implemented (1970-1980). She was the
senatorial aide whom Senator Hughes assigned
to do whatever had to been done in order to
get the legislation passed. On many occasions,
Nancy also played a key role in coordinating
the efforts of the many other A.A. members in
Washington D.C. and elsewhere who were involved
in gaining passage of the bill.

President Nixon was one of the Washington
figures who opposed the Hughes Act. For a
long time after its passage, he refused to
sign it, which would have been the equivalent
of vetoing it. Tom Pike, whom Nixon regarded
as a good friend and staunch supporter, was
one of the influential A.A. people who kept
up the pressure on Nixon in their private
contacts with him until he finally grudgingly
put his signature on the bill.

Part of the problem was that Hughes and some
of his supporters were Democrats. Pike, as a
devoted Republican, was able to add his voice
in support of the Hughes Act and raise the
issue above the partisan level.

For a full account of the enactment and
implementation of the Hughes Act, see Nancy
Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends:
The Politics of Alcoholism.

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html
______________________________

*During the Prohibition Era, the number of
people in the United States who died of
cirrhosis of the liver and other strongly
alcohol related diseases underwent a slight
but nevertheless significant and measurable
decline. On that ground, it could be regarded
as a public health success.

The two problems were that (1) it did nothing
effective to prevent true hardcore chronic
alcoholics from obtaining alcohol. It was not
a solution at all to the problem of alcoholism.
Real alcoholics obtained easily available
illegal alcohol or brewed or fermented their
own alcoholic beverages. And (2) the rise of
criminal associations for importing or making
illegal alcohol produced murder, violence,
and lawbreaking on a scale which the government
could not deal with effectively.






Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
4177 Mel Barger
Re: Proxy battle in Akron Proxy battle in Akron 3/13/2007 7:57:00 PM

The proxy battle Bill lost in Akron was for
control of National Rubber Machinery (NRM), a
small manufacturer of machine tools for the
tire industry. He lost out to a group headed
by a fellow named Nils Florman, who was soon
ousted from the company after a few years.

Either then or a short time later, a very able
man named Paul Frank took over the company and
ran it successfully for about 25 years. He
was highly regarded in Akron and was also an
influential member of St. Paul's Episcopal
Church, which was pastored by Rev. Walter
Tunks (the man Bill called seeking contact
with an alcoholic). I interviewed Mr. Frank
at his beautiful home in 1980. He was 86 at
the time.

NRM had been made up of four companies brought
together in 1928. But they had never been
able to realize the benefits of consolidation
and the company was in serious trouble by 1935,
which made it a candidate for a takeover. At
that time, there were 113,000 shares of NRM
stock outstanding, and it had a market value
of about $1 per share. Thus the company could
have been acquired for $113,000, but with the
price so depressed, shareholders were unwilling
to sell. They were interested in seeing a
management change, however, and Florman's group
evidently made a better case than Bill and his
partners.

Had Bill succeeded in the fight and been named
president of the company, he would have been
paid a salary of about $14,000 per year---a
handsome income in 1935. I doubt that he would
have been thinking about calling on another
alcoholic while facing the problems of running
a business. (My personal opinion is that Bill
could have run NRM very well.)

T. Henry Williams, who with his wife Clarace
hosted the first group of alcoholics in Akron,
lost his job with NRM as a result of the proxy
battle. He later became a principal in the
McNeil company, which was an NRM competitor
in manufacturing tire processing machines.

Both NRM and McNeil went through many changes,
but today they are joined as one company!

And that completes today's lesson about the
tire manufacturing business and its effect
on AA's origins.

Mel Barger



Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)


----- Original Message -----
From: Gallery Photography
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:17 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Proxy battle in Akron


Do any of you know more details about the Proxy
battle Bill W. lost, in Akron, just prior to
meeting Doctor Bob?

I've also looked up information on just what
a proxy battle is. I think I understand but it
would help if I had more specific information
on how and what the fight is about.

If I understand it correctly, Bill was like
some "middle man" fighting between company and
stockholders as a substitute for them fighting
each other directly.

Well, who was he fighting and what was he
fighting for?

Hope you can help me understand this better.

Thanks.

Rotax Steve





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4178 spebsqsa@att.net
AA History Buffs AA History Buffs 3/16/2007 4:13:00 PM

It is worth reminding those who read AA History Lovers:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorylovers/
that the original AA History Buffs forum is available:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/
Nancy Olson moderated it from 2000 through 2002.

The move from AAHstoryBuffs to AAHistoryLovers was
necessary because a technical glitch made it impossible
to add new members to the original Yahoo! group.

Nancy copied the significant posts (but not all of the
discussions) from Buffs into Lovers when she started
it as a replacement.

0 -1 0 0
4179 Mitchell K.
Re: Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? Did Ebby make amends to Bill W.? 3/13/2007 8:26:00 PM

Is there any information as to why Ebby needed
to make amends to Bill?



> Is there any historical information of amends
> made to Bill W. from Ebby T.?
>
> If so, do any of you have a brief summary or
> can direct me to any books? (particularly page
> numbers)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Rotax Steve
> Nangi namaj perez
>
>

0 -1 0 0
4180 John Lee
Re: Prohibition Prohibition 3/15/2007 10:30:00 AM

Alcohol and drinking were never "illegal"
under federal law. The purchase or use of
intoxicating liquors was never proscribed by
the 18th Amendment or Volstead Act. Those
laws prohibited the manufacture, transportation
or sale of intoxicating liquors.

Bob and Bill could drink and buy liquor without
fear of legal penalties during the Prohibition
period. When you see old movies of a "raid"
by Treasury agents, you won't see the agents
arresting the drinkers. They just close the
joint and impound the hootch.

0 -1 0 0
4181 Frank E. Nyikos
Re: Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) 3/14/2007 3:32:00 PM

Would be interested in ordering Share magazine,
but living in a small rural community, do
not have access to convert dollars so as to
send pounds - Would appreciate further info
and/or email address to find out how this
could be done.

"Frank E. Nyikos" <fenyikos@hoosierlink.net>
(fenyikos at hoosierlink.net)


----- Original Message -----
From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 5:35 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: AA history in Great Britain


> Share magazine - the British counterpart of
> Grapevine - has produced a book called Share
> and Share Alike to mark the 60th anniversary
> of AA's foundation in Britain (England,
> Scotland and Wales) on 31 March 1947. It
> contains stories from each of the past six
> decades of Share and its predecessor the AA
> Newsletter. The book also includes information
> about the British Fellowship's history. The
> price is £4.75 sterling (inc p+p), checks
> etc. payable to 'General Service Office'.
>
> Send orders to:
>
> Share and Share Alike,
> PO Box 1, 10 Toft Green,
> York YO1 7NJ UK.
>
> Laurie A.,
> Editor, Share
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
4182 Bob
Re: Abercrombie and "Bill W. & Dr. Bob" the play Abercrombie and "Bill W. & Dr. Bob" the play 3/13/2007 4:13:00 PM

Abercrombie & Fitch was a big "casual luxury"
clothing retailer in the 1930's, .... very
common to see folks on the golf greens wearing
it so it might have been a moniker insinuating
someone was a social climber (predate yuppie),
but in a fun way, on their way up the sobriety
social scale.......a joking reminder not to
forget where they came from......

Rob

- - - -

Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com> wrote:
Many times throughout the show Dr.Bob callled
out to Bill with the name "Abercrombie." Was
this a nick name of Bill's or was this plain
garble?

Steve G in NJ

- - - -

Note from the moderator: Dr. Bob liked to
give people strange nicknames. He sometimes
called James D. (J. D.) Holmes by that
nickname "Abercrombie."

J. D. said he was the tenth person to get
sober in A.A. -- counting Bill W. and Dr. Bob
as A.A. Number One and Number Two. J. D. was
the founder of the first A.A. group in Indiana

http://hindsfoot.org/nhome.html
http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html

In his memoirs, J. D. says (of Dr. Bob):

"He was great on slang. He used to call me
'Abercrombie.' Why, I don't know. He'd call
up and say, 'Bring your frail over,' meaning
my wife. He had a peculiar vocabulary, but
a wonderful one. He was an educated man, but
some of his slang you didn't hear the ordinary
person use."

I've heard that Dr. Bob sometimes called
Bill W. "Willy." But did he ever call him
"Abercrombie"? What do our experts in the
group say on that?

Glenn C., South Bend

0 -1 0 0
4183 Arthur S
RE: Prohibition Prohibition 3/18/2007 12:34:00 PM

Hi John

I beg to differ with your interpretation of
the Volstead or National Prohibition Act - it
did in fact include provisions limiting the
alcohol content of beverages and private
possession and consumption. As with most
federal law there were also exceptions defined
but they were not open ended.

Beverages with an alcohol content of 0.5% or
more were explicitly illegal. Also, while
there were some provisions for allowable
possession and use of alcohol in one's home,
it did not include alcoholic beverages that
were illegally manufactured.

There were no restrictions on alcohol used
for fuel, medicinal purposes and sacramental
usage in religious services. Needless to say
prescriptions for alcohol went through the
roof and people seemed to have taken a mighty
sharp turn at becoming awfully religious in
their use of sacramental wine (grin).

Movies, due to their poetic license and time
limitations, are very unreliable in demon-
strating actual facts and conditions. As an
example, the movie "The Untouchables" starring
Kevin Kostner (and to some degree the TV
series) would have you believe that Elliot
Ness was responsible for the indictment and
conviction of Al Capone and witnessed the
death of his underboss Frank Nitti.

None of that is true. The IRS nailed Al Capone
for tax evasion and he was also charged with
about 5,000 violations of the Volstead Act.
Frank Nitti committed suicide about 5 or 6
years after Capone's imprisonment rather than
go to prison himself. Ness' role is actually
much exaggerated but it makes for a good story.

To some degree I believe you are juxtaposing
the inability (and unwillingness) to enforce
the law as if the law itself allowed certain
things to be legal that it actually made
illegal. The Volstead Act was supposed to have
been heavily enforced in the South and West
but very sparingly enforced in the North and
East of the US. In many locations and communi-
ties it was not enforced at all and looked
upon with scorn.

For the enforcement that was done, court
dockets became so overloaded with criminal
cases that it too had the effect of limiting
enforcement. Also public intoxication arrests
skyrocketed during prohibition further
impacting the courts and overwhelming them.

In any event, the grand experiment was an
unmitigated failure. Supposedly per capita
alcohol consumption actually increased over
the duration of the Volstead Act until repeal
of the 18th amendment when it declined (go
figure).

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com) wrote:

Alcohol and drinking were never "illegal"
under federal law. The purchase or use of
intoxicating liquors was never proscribed by
the 18th Amendment or Volstead Act. Those
laws prohibited the manufacture, transportation
or sale of intoxicating liquors.

Bob and Bill could drink and buy liquor without
fear of legal penalties during the Prohibition
period. When you see old movies of a "raid"
by Treasury agents, you won't see the agents
arresting the drinkers. They just close the
joint and impound the hootch.

0 -1 0 0
4184 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Abercrombie and "Bill W. & Dr. Bob" the play Abercrombie and "Bill W. & Dr. Bob" the play 3/17/2007 12:03:00 PM

Abercrombie would be a common word. In the
west there is a city named after a fort named
after an American Colonel on the Red River.
As a doctor, Dr Bob would have had to be aware
of a foreign doctor known on for his work on
major diseases. On the web, one can see more
references to the name in the area where he
grew up and went to school.

0 -1 0 0
4185 jenny andrews
Re: Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) Share magazine (British counterpart to Grapevine) 3/17/2007 3:45:00 AM

From Laurie A., David J., and Shakey Mike:
ordering information for Share

From: <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Hi Frank,

Will forward your message to our GSO in York,
UK. If you get no reply you can contact them at:

aashare@btconnect.com
(aashare at btconnect.com)

Or - telephone (UK) 01904 644026.

Thanks for your interst and good hunting!

Laurie A.

- - - -

From: Frank E. Nyikos, Milford, Indiana, USA
<fenyikos@hoosierlink.net>
(fenyikos at hoosierlink.net)

>Would be interested in ordering Share magazine,
>but living in a small rural community, do
>not have access to convert dollars so as to
>send pounds - Would appreciate further info
>and/or email address to find out how this
>could be done.

- - - -

From: "David Jones" <davidjones@davidjones3.plus.com>
(davidjones at davidjones3.plus.com)

The email address for Share magazine is:

aashare@btconnect.com
(aashare at btconnect.com)

Hopefully, they will bee able to help you.

The subscription rate is £12 p.a for UK;
£22.50 p.a. for Europe; and £35 p.a
international airmail.

God bless
Dave

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com
(Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Shakey here - to update this ... I contacted
Share and was given the following information
in reference to their magazine. it may also
hold true for the book. I will pass on further
information as it becomes available.

>Hi Mike
>Thank you for your interest in subscribing
>to Share. To order 2 copies per month for
>1 year is 135.513 USD (£70.00) or 2 copies
>for 6 months 67.736 USD (£35.00). If it
>is easier this can be paid direct into our
>bank, I will send you the details if you
>require them.
>Best wishes
>Chris

Yis,
Shakey Mike

Going to 11th NAW in Phoenix Sept 6-9,2007.
Plan now to make it. Hope to see you all
there.

- - - -

FROM THE MODERATOR:

Here is the information given online by the
British AA organization. They give a cost of
one pound per issue if you buy it one issue
at a time. It seems to come out twice a
month, so that would be 24 pounds per year
bought in the U.K.

The price when sent by international airmail
is much steeper, because of postage. That
seems to be 35 British pounds for a six month's
subscription (12 issues), and 70 British
pounds for a year's subscription. That
would be about 2.92 British pounds per issue.

It's about two U.S. dollars to the pound,
which roughly doubles the cost in dollars. At
today's conversion rate, that would be 67.95
U.S. dollars for six months and 135.87 U.S.
dollars for a year's subscription.

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/11literature.shtml
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/share.shtml

AA Share Magazine

SHARE is the official magazine of Alcoholics
Anonymous in England & Wales.

Its 32 pages are a source of sober views and
ideas on the world-wide Fellowship and its
programme of recovery from alcoholism. It serves
as a meeting between meetings for newcomers to
AA, helping them to both identify with others
and learn more about the Fellowship. SHARE also
aims to assist experienced members in maintaining
and improving the quality of their lives in
sobriety.

All content is written by AA members and is
divided into articles reflecting general
experience, strength and hope; those that
trace the roots, early days and fundamental
principles of AA; and those submitted in
response to the advertised monthly theme,
e.g. The Telephone Lifeline or My Best Day
Sober.

A 300-word editorial usually dwells on the
theme and there are regular features like
Letters Pages, Diary of a Recovering Alcoholic
and SHAREisms... a collection of homilies
and insights that reflect the hard-edged
wisdom available around 'The Rooms'
(meetings).

No poetry or obituaries are published.

SHARE is put together by an Editor and
Production Editor taking their turn at
Fellowship service. The production disk is
laid out and illustrated professionally.
Both report to a London monthly meeting of
the Editorial Team who advise, support and
monitor guidelines. The final decision on
published material rests with the Editor,
who is appointed on a four-year term by
the General Service Board of AA.

The 4-page glossy centrefold -- the cover
too has access to full colour -- serves as
a pull-out information guide on AA groups
and events. It is assembled by AA's paid
staff at the York General Service Office,
which also logs and despatches contributions
to the Editor and three advisory Readers;
types up the selected content and distributes
the magazine to groups and individual readers.

GSO organises subscriptions, which are paid
in advance. SHARE costs £1 and circulation
is around 4,800.

This is A.A. General Service Conference-
approved literature Prepared by General
Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous

0 -1 0 0
4186 Arthur S
RE: Re: Proxy battle in Akron Proxy battle in Akron 3/14/2007 12:58:00 PM

SOURCE REFERENCES:

AACOA--AA Comes of Age
AGAA--The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B
BW-RT--Bill W by Robert Thompson
BW-FH--Bill W by Francis Hartigan
CH--Children of the Healer, by Christine Brewer
DBGO--Dr Bob and the Good Old-timers
GB--Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson
NG--Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
NW--New Wine, by Mel B
PIO--Pass It On, AAWS
RAA--The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman

1909: The Akron Rubber Mold and Machine Co was founded. It reorganized
later, in 1928, as the National Rubber Machinery Co. In 1935, it became the
center of a proxy fight that brought Bill W to Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211-212, CH
4, NG 26, PIO 134, RAA 142)

1915: T Henry Williams went to Akron, OH to work as Chief Engineer for the
National Rubber Machinery Co. (PIO 145)

1935

April, Bill W returned to Wall St and was introduced to Howard Tompkins of
the firm Baer and Co. Tompkins was involved in a proxy fight to take over
control of the National Rubber Machinery Co based in Akron, OH. (BW-RT 211,
NG 26, BW-FH 74, PIO 133-134, GB 33)

May, Bill W went to Akron but the proxy fight was quickly lost. He remained
behind at the Mayflower Hotel very discouraged. (BW-RT 212, PIO 134-135)

===========
[after Bill and Bob met]
===========

June, Bill and Dr Bob went to Oxford Group meetings on Wednesday nights at
the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams. T Henry lost his job due to the
proxy fight that brought Bill to Akron. (AACOA 141, NW 68-69, 73, DBGO
70-71, 99-102, PIO 145-147, AGAA 186, NG 317) Favored Scripture readings at
meetings were The Sermon on the Mount, First Corinthians Chapter 13 and the
Book of James. (AAGA 193, 208-209, 253) (GTBT 95-96 says that meetings were
held at Dr Bob's house and moved to the Williams' house in late 1936 or
early 1937)

In other sources I've read, Bill also had dreams of possibly becoming the
chief executive of the company targeted for takeover.

Cheers
Arthur

--Original Message--

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Lee
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:12 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Proxy battle in Akron

No. Bill was representing a group of stockholders
who wanted to take over management of the Akron
company. In a proxy fight an individual obtains
"proxies," a document which constitutes legal
permission to vote for the stockholder who
supplied the proxy. A prospective management
group contacts stockholders with large voting
blocks of stock, and asks those stockholders
for their proxies. Stockholders elect the board
of directors for a corporation. The board of
directors selects the officers of the company,
such as president, vice-president, treasurer.

0 -1 0 0
4187 robin_foote
Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected 3/19/2007 10:39:00 AM

Bluhm, Amy Colwell. Verification of C. G.
Jung's Analysis of Rowland Hazard and the
History of Alcoholics Anonymous. History of
Psychology. 2006 Nov Vol 9(4) 313-324.

From: Alcohol Self-help News
<
http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/verification-of-c-g-jungs-an\
alysis-of-rowland-hazard-and-the-history-of-alcoholics-anonymous/
>
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4188 james.bliss@comcast.net
Re: Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected 3/21/2007 1:22:00 PM

Not sure why the link below was posted, but a
direct link to the information rather than the
below link to the copy is:

http://content.apa.org/journals/hop/9/4/313


---- Original message ----
From: "robin_foote" <gentle_bear@optusnet.com.au>
> Bluhm, Amy Colwell. Verification of C. G.
> Jung's Analysis of Rowland Hazard and the
> History of Alcoholics Anonymous. History of
> Psychology. 2006 Nov Vol 9(4) 313-324.
>
>
http://alcoholselfhelpnews.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/verification-of-c-g-jungs-an\
alysis-of-rowland-hazard-and-the-history-of-alcoholics-anonymous/


0 -1 0 0
4189 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected Dates - Jung and Hazard corrected 3/21/2007 2:31:00 PM

Richard M. Dubiel, The Road to Fellowship:
The Role of the Emmanuel Movement and the
Jacoby Club in the Development of Alcoholics
Anonymous (2004).

http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kDub2.html

Dubiel showed in this book, that although A.A.
tradition said that Hazard was a patient of
the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung for a year
in 1931, he could have spent two months with
Jung at most during the course of that year,
and even that would have been difficult, based
on his study of the Hazard family papers.

But in the period immediately following the
publication of this book, two other researchers,
Amy Colwell Bluhm, Ph.D., and Cora Finch,
working independently, established that Rowland
actually arrived in Zurich in May 1926 (five
years earlier than the traditional A.A. date).

See Bluhm's article "Verification of C. G.
Jung’s analysis of Rowland Hazard and the
history of Alcoholics Anonymous" in the
American Psychological Association's journal
History of Psychology in November 2006 and

Cora Finch's long account of Rowland Hazard's
life and struggles with alcoholism at
http://www.stellarfire.org/

Other than the re-dating however, Bluhm's and
Finch's work corroborated the A.A. tradition
that Rowland Hazard was Carl Jung's patient
for a considerable length of time, and the
two of them discovered a good deal of detail
about Rowland's relationship with Jung and the
general background. Jung ended up telling
Rowland that he had never seen alcoholics of
his type recover until they became willing
to commit themselves to the spiritual life.

Since Rowland was a typical alcoholic, however,
it took him seven more years of denial and
misery -- as he continued to refuse to take
Jung's prescription seriously -- before he
met Courtenay Baylor from the Emmanuel Movement
and began seeking a spiritual solution to his
alcoholism.

Dubiel's book shows how Hazard had to be
hospitalized for his alcoholism in February
and March of 1932, and then from January 1933
to October 1934 was again in bad shape and
unable to carry on his business activities.
But then he explains how Courtenay Baylor
became Rowland Hazard's therapist in 1933,
and continued to work with him through 1934.
It was under the influence of Baylor's
Emmanuel Movement therapy (with its
combination of spirituality and simple
lay therapy) that Hazard actually began
to recover. Hazard was also attending Oxford
Group meetings, but his family was paying
Baylor to be his regular therapist.

In August 1934, of course, Hazard helped
rescue Ebby Thacher from being committed to
Brattleboro, and three months later, in
November 1934, Ebby visited Bill Wilson in
his kitchen, in the famous scene recorded
in the first chapter of the Big Book.

0 -1 0 0
4190 Bob S.
Henrietta Seiberling''s grave Henrietta Seiberling''s grave 3/21/2007 4:52:00 PM

An archivist friend of mine, who lives in
southern Indiana, would like to learn where
Henrietta Seiberling is buried. Best
information leads me to believe that her plot
is in Kentucky and that her gravestone is
inscribed "Let go and let God."

I would much appreciate this information -
thanks!

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
4191 Bill Lash
Charles B. Towns (1 of 2) Charles B. Towns (1 of 2) 3/22/2007 8:45:00 AM

Charles B. Towns, Ph.D.

In 1917, Charles B. Towns, Ph.D., who had
founded a Manhattan hospital at the turn of
the century as a "drying-out” facility, wrote
a groundbreaking article for The Modern
Hospital magazine in which he asserted,
"There is no such thing as 'curing' a case
of alcoholism. There is nothing on earth you
can do to prevent any human being from taking
up the use of alcohol again if he wants to."

Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics
Anonymous started his recovery at that
hospital. When the time came in 1938 to
finance the writing of the Big Book of
Alcoholics Anonymous and the selling of
shares in Works Publishing Co., Dr. "Silky"
Silkworth, Bill's physician and a friend of
A.A., helped to convert Dr. Towns into a
great A.A. enthusiast and had encouraged him
to loan $2,000 toward preparation of the
book, a sum that was increased to $4,000 and
later paid back in full. But he would not
buy stock, he wanted a note for security!

Dr. Towns also approached Fulton Oursler, then
editor of Liberty magazine, who commissioned
feature writer Morris Markey to write the
article "Alcoholics and God" for the September
1939 issue, giving A.A. its first national
publicity.

As we know, Ebby Thacher, sober in the Oxford
Group 2 months, and living at Calvary Mission
run by Rev. Sam Shoemaker, had visited with
Bill shortly after Armistice Day 1934. Bill
Wilson then made his first visit to Calvary
Mission on or about December 7, 1934, just days
before his last admittance to Towns Hospital,
December 11, 1934. This could very well account
for the influence on Bill’s fascination with
the conversion experience whether he realized
it or not.

He had researched much religious material as
well as Richard Peabody’s "Common Sense Of
Drinking," and perhaps the works of Charles B.
Towns, although it is not well known that
Charles Towns wrote three important books on
alcoholism: "Habits That Handicap" (1915),
"Reclaiming The Drinker"(1931), and "Alcohol
And Drug Sickness"(1934). Bill, with his
inquiring mind, may well have read them in his
previous trips to Towns Hospital.

Towns was very emphatic about never talking
down to an alcoholic, or scolding a man that
you are trying to help. (12 Steppers and
Al-Anons take note.)

There are other articles by or about Towns
listed below, and the text of two of them
follow below that:

Habits That Handicap: The Remedy for Narcotic,
Alcohol, Tobacco and Other Drug Addictions
(New York; London: Funk & Wagnalls, 1919)

Help for the Hard Drinker; What Can Be Done
to Save the Man Worth While (New York, 1912)

"The Injury of Tobacco and its Relation to other
Drug Habits," 83 Cent. Mag. 766-772 (1912)

The Peril of the Drug Habit, and the Need of
Restrictive Legislation (New York: Century Co.,
1912)

Federal Responsibility in the Solution of the
Habit-forming Drug Problem (New York, 1916)

The Personal Problem Confronting the Physician
in the Treatment of Drug and Alcoholic Addiction
(New York: Charles B. Towns Hospital, 1917)

The Present and Future of Narcotive Pathology,
in Three Parts (New York: Charles B. Towns
Hospital, 1917)

The Alcoholic Problem Considered in its
Institutional, Medical, and Sociological
Aspects, in Three Parts (New York, The
C. B. Towns Hospital, 1917)


NEW DRUG LAW HITS ACCIDENTAL USERS
Towns Says Provision Must Be Made to Treat
Thousands Who Got Habit Unconsciously.
THEIR SUPPLY SHUT OFF
Drug Fiends of the Underworld Will Be Little
Affected by Statute Governing Physicians'
Prescriptions.
New York Times June 21, 1914

The Boylan anti-drug law, which was passed by
the New York Legislature on March 28, and which
becomes effective on July 1, will result in
serious consequences if State and city
authorities do not make immediate provision for
the treatment of "innocent" drug slaves,
according to Charles B. Towns of 119 West
Eighty-first Street, who framed the law.

"There are thousands of persons in this city
alone who have unconsciously become addicted
to the use of habit-forming drugs and who are
not in any way to blame for their condition,"
Mr. Towns said yesterday. "Some of these
innocent victims may not yet know that they
have become drug fiends. No estimate can be
made of their number. These are persons who,
perhaps several years ago, were given drugs on
physicians prescriptions to alleviate suffering
from some disease or injury which, in most of
the cases has since been cured. The administra-
tion of the drug, however, creates a craving
for it which the patient cannot withstand, and
after the cause for the first doses is gone
the habit remains. The victims then secure more
and more of the drug on their physicians'
prescriptions. If the drug is denied them they
become violently nervous and show all of the
horrible symptoms of the deprived dope fiend
within twenty-four hours; making it necessary
for their physicians to renew the prescriptions.

"The new law provides that in the future, it
shall be unlawful for any physician, veterina-
rian, or dentist to issue prescriptions for
drugs except after a physical examination for
the treatment of disease, injury, or deformity,
and to prevent the forging of prescription
blanks every doctor signing them must affix a
record of his name in full, his office address,
office hours, and telephone number, and to
whom the prescription is issued, together with
the date of issuance. It can be filled but once,
and must be filled within ten days. It will
also be unlawful for any person to fill such
prescription without first verifying its
authenticity by telephone or otherwise or to
have drugs in his possession without authority.
Aside from the fact that any dealer or physician
found guilty of breaking the new law will be
guilty of a misdemeanor, his license may be
revoked upon his conviction.

"These new strictures will make it impossible
for the innocent drug fiends to secure more
drugs from their physicians. The law for the
time being will hardly affect the drug users
of the underworld, who have long known secret
channels through which they can obtain their
drugs. It will fall most heavily on the person
who has broken no law in the past in securing
habit forming drugs and will drive him--or her,
for there are vast numbers of women who have
become drug fiends in this manner--to seek
illicit drug dens if other methods are not
speedily provided. The law provides that
persons who are found to be habitual users of
such drugs shall be committed to a State,
county, or city hospital or institution
licensed under the State Lunacy Commission
until they have been treated sufficiently to
warrant their release. It takes only five or
six days to cure a drug fiend in a hospital,
but as yet the hospitals licensed by the
commission have not made ample preparation for
the treatment of more than a small percentage
of the cases which should be sent to them when
the law goes into effect if the highest good
is to be derived from the law.

"The movement for intelligent legislation
regulating drug traffic is comparatively young
and New York's new law will not remedy
conditions in this State, but it is a good
beginning. It should attract the attention of
intelligent people in other States, and should
be imitated throughout the country. Until this
is done, however, and uniform anti-drug
legislation has been secured we will be
handicapped by the fact that drug users in
New York can send prescriptions across the
river to New Jersey, or elsewhere, and have
them filled with little inconvenience. The
law provides that all orders for the wholesale
purchase of drugs must be written on serially
numbered, duplicated blanks furnished by the
Commissioner of Health. This will keep track
of all supplies of drugs purchased in New York,
but druggists, or persons posing as druggists,
will still be able to order from Philadelphia,
or elsewhere on their regular letterhead paper
or on fake letterhead paper. The need of
national legislation is obvious."

Mr. Towns has prepared an act which he hopes to
have passed by Congress imposing a tax upon and
regulating the importation, production,
manufacture and distribution of habit-forming
drugs. Under the present Federal law, he said
yesterday, the government asks no question
concerning the disposition which is made of
crude drugs imported into the country, but
simply taxes them as they come in. His bill
proposes that a close record be kept of every
ounce of habit-forming drug that enters the
country until it is finally consumed under
orders from a reputable physician. There should
also be legal provision, he said yesterday,
to prevent the filling of prescriptions for
drugs issued by any physician not a resident
of the State in which the prescription is filled,
so as to overcome the present interstate laxity.
In setting an example in the matter for other
States to follow, it was suggested it would be
a good idea for the New York State Medical
Society to prepare official prescription blanks
exclusively for drugs and to have them
copyrighted so that similar blanks could not
be printed for illicit use.

When asked what he considered the principal
cause of the widespread use of drugs, Mr.
Towns said:

"In the six thousand cases I have studied,
I have found that in every case in which the
victim was a youth he had smoked cigarettes
long before he began to take drugs." Effective
universal anti-drug legislation, he said,
would reduce lunacy and criminality about
40 per cent.

0 -1 0 0
4192 Bill Lash
Charles B. Towns (2 of 2) Charles B. Towns (2 of 2) 3/22/2007 8:45:00 AM

The New York Times, April 29,1917
WAR IS INCREASING THE DRUG-CONSUMING HABIT
Hospitals Develop Craving, Says Charles B.
Towns, Who Urges Federal Action

No human intensity can compare with that of
the drug user for his drug. Unrelieved, he
will let nothing stand between him and it;
neither hunger, nakedness, starvation, arson,
theft, nor murder will keep him from the
substance he craves. This is the opinion of
Charles B. Towns of New York City, of whom
Dr. Richard C. Cabot of Boston does not
hesitate to say that he "knows, more about
the alleviation and cure of drug addictions
than any doctor I have ever seen." The man
who first indorsed Mr. Towns and urged Dr.
Cabot, to study his specific treatment for the
drug-taker, was Dr. Alexander Lambert of
Bellevue Hospital, Professor of Clinical
Medicine at the Cornell University Medical
College.

And it is also the opinion of Mr. Towns that
the war in Europe has resulted in a tremendous
and unnecessary increase in the use of habit-
forming drugs, and that the great need in our
country at the moment is that Congress empower
the President to appoint a committee of able
men to investigate this whole matter in all
its phases and make such appropriation as may
be required to protect our soldiers from the
insidious evil that is doing its work abroad.

Mr. Towns is going to Washington in a few days
with this object in view. He hopes to bring
forcefully to the attention of President Wilson
certain facts concerning the growth of the drug
habit among the troops in Europe, together with
the necessity that this country take up this
whole subject by commission, because it is so
far-reaching, involves so much detail, and
affects so many and such varied interests that
it would be impossible at this time to introduce
in Congress legislation that would meet the case
as it should be met.

"I presume you have read in the papers," said
Mr. Towns, "the account of the arrest of some
illicit traffickers in habit-forming drugs in
which an enormous quantity--- $500,000 worth,
it is reported--- of such drugs was found and
it was also stated that this organization had
representatives in foreign countries and was
carrying on a wholesale business in such drugs.
This is of great interest and confirms my
position, namely, that unless this problem is
taken up internationally it will be impossible
to reach such things, because, the present
Federal and State laws on the subject are
wholly inadequate."

Before any legislation is proposed, Mr. Towns
believes the subject should be investigated by
the Federal Government and that its findings
should be made public and studied as a prelimi-
nary to the enactment of any law or amendment
to the present law.

"With the united wisdom of Congress applied to
the matter,'' he said a few days ago, "there
can be no doubt that such an investigation as
I have in mind would lay the foundation for
Federal legislation that would once and for
all solve this monstrous problem. Such action
of Congress would mean not only a solution of
this subject as far as the Federal Government
is concerned; it would mean also a solution
for the States. And it would, mind you, establish
a legislative, medical, and sociological
precedent that would give this country for
the first time the primacy it ought to have
in asking other countries to join with us once
and for all in terminating this evil--an evil
which has now become not merely a series of
isolated national problems, but a united world
problem.

"I have recently had a patient in this hospital
who had been going through two kinds of battle
in France. He won the Victoria Cross. But he
also acquired the drug habit. The army hospital
made a drug taker out of him. It has probably
done the same for half a million other brave
men.

"Before enlisting in the present war he in South
Africa, was awarded a South African Service
Medal, and was honorably discharged. He went
to France in August, 1914, and was in his first
engagement on Aug. 25, 26, 27, and 28 when he
was 'gassed.'

"He told me that the physical condition produced
by gas was similar to pneumonia in several
respects. One being a contraction of the chest
which makes it impossible for the patient to
lie down. The patients, himself included, were
carried into the hospital, set up against a
wall, and immediately placed under the influence
of morphine. He said it had been found that
morphine was the only thing that would relieve
a sufferer from the effects of gas.

"As soon as the patients were able to help
themselves and to use a hypodermic a mixture
of this morphine solution was put on a table
within their reach, and they were allowed to
use it as often as they felt inclined.

"Now, this soldier was not aware that he was
becoming a morphine addict, but in those three
months he became one. The treatment followed
in his case was the usual one, and, so far as
his observations went, each of the gas victims
who entered the hospital for treatment left
it a confirmed drug user.

"He returned to the front and took part in
the Hill 60 engagement, where his battalion
was wiped out---the Eleventh Battalion of the
Black Watch. He stood for an hour and a quarter
at roll call, and was the only man who answered
to his name. But he was wounded and went again
to the hospital. He told them that he was up
against the morphine habit, and they gave him
what morphine he needed while there.

"He left that hospital and joined the Royal
Engineers. was again wounded, again went to
the hospital for three weeks in March, 1915,
and again was supplied with the drug during
that time. Then he was sent to the Somme front,
where it was trench fighting. But he was still
able to get the drug in any quantity from
civilians. As he put it to me: 'Thousands and
thousands of dollars' worth of drugs are being
sold by the women who are following the army.

"It is the firm conviction of this man that all
those who have been through the war from the
first and have been 'gassed' are takers of the
drug.

"On July 27, 1915, his officers had ordered the
blowing up of a trench. My friend started with
a crew of eleven men to cross 275 feet of
tunnel toward the enemy, when, after reaching
half the distance, shells from the Austrian
guns fell short and blew the tunnelers to
pieces. Where had been a tunnel was now only
a hole.

"My friend picked himself up and found that his
leg was sprained and his back hurt. There was
one fellow whose leg was blown off. My friend
carried him over to their trenches so looked
back and saw another companion trying to get
up. So he carried him in. He carried back the
whole eleven, and dropped when the job was
finished.

"When he knew anything again he was back in the
hospital--the same hospital at which he had
remained previously for nearly three months.

"He informs me that the hospital records show
that while he was in them morphine was admini-
stered to him regularly. This will appear
on the charts, but not the quantity. He has
seen morphine administered to twenty men at
one time from the same hypodermic; in fact,
the nurses never refused morphine to any one
who asked for it.

"After he arrived in this country he went to
Boston and the British Consul there arranged
for him to go to Bermuda with the nurse. He
stayed there about two weeks, but his cough
got no better and he came back. He then went
into the Maine woods, where he tried to rid
himself of the drug habit, but found he could
not. The open air did cure his cough, and he
returned to Boston determined to conquer his
addiction to drugs. A physician prescribed
for him for four weeks, and he was taking as
much morphine at the end of that time as he
had been at the beginning.

"This man told me that he was very discouraged,
and had made up his mind to shoot himself. He
talked the matter over with his wife, and they
came to New York and saw me. He had only $71
left when he reached New York. I gave him the
best room in the house, feeling that I owed it
to the boys over there in Europe to do something.
He is cured.

"Now the basic way for the United States or
any other country to deal with this question,"
Mr. Towns asserted, "to go at once and directly
to the very root of the whole business, would
be to restrict all use of opium to its crude
form and to its forms as laudanum and paregoric.
This would cut off all pecuniary interest in
it, save for supplying it for legitimate medical
needs in the crude form, and in its least
harmful forms of laudanum and paregoric. Opium
is produced only in a few countries--practically
none in our own country--and it is only the
manufacture of its alkaloids that requires such
large outlay of capital in laboratory equipment.

"Where an opiate is indicated there are very
few instances in which the required results
could not be had from the administration of
the crude product. Crude opium is the least
harmful form of opium that can be taken for it
contains all of the alkaloids and may be taken
either by the mouth or in suppositories. If
the traffic in and sale of this drug was
reduced to traffic and sale of crude opium
it would not inconvenience the medical
profession in its legitimate use of the drug
in any way whatsoever find it would Immediately
stop this large illicit traffic that has grown
out of the habit-forming drug situation.

"No possible good will come out of attempting
merely to forbid the importation, manufacture
or sale of heroin. The chemists are very clever
and they would give us in another day some
preparation of opium under some other trade
name. And if it was not an actual preparation
of opium they would claim that it was a synthetic
one. The only way to meet such a habit-forming
drug condition is, I repeat, to restrict the
manufacture, sale, prescribing and administering
of opiates to the crude opium, to laudanum, and
to paregoric, and then to hold the physician
to a strict accounting of all of these he
personally prescribes or administers. There
are no physical conditions in which heroin or
any other narcotic is indicated but what could
be met by these. We can dispense even with
morphine and all of the opium alkaloids.

"I can go back to the time in the South when
there was an old rosewood medicine chest with
a ball of opium and a vial of paregoric, and
these easily met every possible need where
opiates were considered necessary to alleviate
pain. The medical profession would not be
inconvenienced in the slightest degree by such
a restriction, and it would at once eliminate
every unfavorable hazard that has grown out of
the use of habit-forming drugs for medical
purposes.

"Stopping importation is a farce, unless at
the same time there is a rigid Governmental
control in those countries that produce or
import the drug. The only obstacle to an
international understanding is that the
producing countries know very well that
Government regulation would materially
lessen the sale of the drug. Within the
borders of our own country such a system
would simplify rather than complicate present
conditions. We have today along our frontier
find in our parts inspectors trying to stop
the illicit traffic in opium, and the money
thus spent by our Government would be more
than sufficient to handle and distribute all
of the drug that is needed for legitimate
purposes.

"Any druggist could of course continue to buy
all that he wished, but he would have to
account for what he bought. The drug would
serve only its legitimate purpose, because the
druggist could sell it only on prescription.
This would at once eliminate the gravest
feature of the case, the indiscriminate sale
of proprietary and patent medicines containing
small quantities of opium. The physician would
thus have to shoulder the entire responsibility
for the use of any habit-forming drug.

"I must hammer this point once more: With
the Government as the first distributor and
the physician as the last, the whole condition
of affairs would assume a brighter aspect,
for it would be a simple matter to get from
the physician a proper accounting for what
he had dispensed. Thus the new crop of users
would be small, and less than 10 per cent. of
the opium at present brought into this country
would be sufficient to meet every legitimate
need."

0 -1 0 0
4193 Tom Hickcox
Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s grave Henrietta Seiberling''s grave 3/24/2007 1:09:00 PM

At 14:52 3/21/2007 , Bob S. wrote:
>An archivist friend of mine, who lives in
>southern Indiana, would like to learn where
>Henrietta Seiberling is buried. Best
>information leads me to believe that her plot
>is in Kentucky and that her gravestone is
>inscribed "Let go and let God."

She was from Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, which
just so happens is the home of my daughter,
and she is buried there according to
"A Narrative Timeline of A.A. History."
Go here and use the search function:

<http://silkworth.net/timelines/AA_Timeline_2004-04-01_Public04.pdf>

I will mention it to her and see if she can
do a phone call or two. I plan a visit
there in May and, if we find the grave, can
take some pics of it.

Lawrenceburg is just south of Frankfort and
a few miles west of Lexington in, I believe,
Anderson County.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4194 Glenn Chesnut
Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety 3/27/2007 11:54:00 AM

New book out:

Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety,
March 2007, ISBN 0-595-42334-5, xvi + 135 pp.,
$14.95.

http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html

(and http://hindsfoot.org/index.html )

Contains historical material on AA practices,
how newcomers were sponsored, and the way AA
meetings and committees were run and organized
in Pennsylvania (on the East Coast of the
United States) in the 1970-2000 period.

0 -1 0 0
4195 terry144434
What was the "ordinary psychological approach"? What was the "ordinary psychological approach"? 3/26/2007 8:10:00 PM

In the Doctors opinion, it says, "Many types
do not respond to the ordinary psychological
approach."

Can anyone clarify what this approach/treatment
may have been?

Many thanks

Terry

- - - -

NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR:

The standard work on this topic is the extremely
thorough and detailed book by William White,
"The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery
in America."

Other members of this group may have details
on the specific things that Dr. Silkworth had
been trying before AA came along.

Glenn C. (South Bend)

0 -1 0 0
4196 ckbudnick
A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" 3/25/2007 10:17:00 PM

Is anyone familiar with the origin of the
following writing? One of my friend's first
sponsors received a copy of it in 1964 on
his 3rd anniversary. I have typed the text
and it is as follows:

AA

AND THE

HIGHER POWER

God In His wisdom, selected this group of men
and women to be the purveyors of his goodness.
In selecting them, through whom to bring about
this phenomenon, He went not to the proud, the
mighty, the famous, or the brilliant; He went
to the humble, the sick, the unfortunate; He
went right to the drunkard, the so-called
weakling of the world.

Well might He have said to us:

"Unto your weak and feeble hands, I have
entrusted a power beyond estimate. To you
has been given that which has been denied
the most learned of your fellows. Not to
scientists or statesmen, not to wives or
mothers, not even to My priests or ministers,
have I given this gift of healing other
alcoholics which I entrust to you.

"It must be used unselfishly; it carries with
it grave responsibility. No day can be too
long; no demands upon your time can be too
urgent; no case too pitiful; no task to hard;
no effort too great. It must be used with
tolerance, for I have restricted its
application to no race, no creed, and no
denomination. Personal criticism you must
expect; lack of appreciation will be common;
ridicule will be your lot; your motives will
be misjudged. You must be prepared for
adversity, for what men call adversity is
the ladder you must use to ascend the rungs
toward spiritual perfection, and, remember –
in the exercise of this power, I shall not
exact of you beyond your capabilities.

"You are not selected because of your
exceptional talents, and be careful, always,
if success attends your efforts, not to
ascribe to personal superiority that to which
you can lay claim only by virtue of My gift.
If I had wanted learned men to accomplish this
mission, the power would have been entrusted
to the physician and the scientist. If I
had wanted eloquent men, there would have
been many anxious for the assignment, for
talk is the easiest used of all talents with
which I have endowed mankind. If I had wanted
scholarly men, the world is filled with better
qualified men than you, who would be available.
You were selected because you have been the
outcasts of the world and your long experience
as drunkards has made or should make you humbly
alert to the cries of distress that come from
the lonely hearts of alcoholics everywhere.

"Keep ever in mind the admission you made
on the day of your profession in A.A., namely
that you are powerless and that it was only
with your willingness to turn your life and
will unto My keeping that relief came to you."

0 -1 0 0
4197 Tom Hickcox
Charles B. Towns'' professional degree Charles B. Towns'' professional degree 3/24/2007 4:32:00 PM

Any idea what Towns' Ph.D. was in and where
he earned it?

I notice in the articles they refer to him
as Mr. and physicians as Dr.

The academics would howl!

If memory serves me well, Silkworth was an M.D.
and a neurologist, and Thibault an M.D. and
psychiatrist, psychiatry and neurology at
the time overlapping quite more than today.

Tommy

0 -1 0 0
4198 Glenn Chesnut
Photo of Henrietta Seiberling''s grave Photo of Henrietta Seiberling''s grave 4/2/2007 3:24:00 PM

Photos of Henrietta Seiberling's grave (and
that of her parents) posted at
http://hindsfoot.org/photos1.html

Sent in by Charles K., A.A.
archivist from California
cdknapp@pacbell.net (cdknapp at pacbell.net)

Subject: Re: Henrietta Seiberling's grave

I am not sure of the exact location of the
cemetery, but here is a photo of her tombstone
and her parents. She is buried in her family
plot (Beckler).

I was driven to the cemetery when I attended
a National Archives Workshop a few years ago.

Hope this helps
Charles from California

Since we can't put attachments on
AAHistoryLovers messages, Charles' photos are
posted in the A.A. Historical Materials Part 3
section at http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html
on the http://hindsfoot.org/ website)

0 -1 0 0
4199 PR_Magoo
Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" 3/27/2007 4:48:00 PM

The full text of Judge John Touhy's talk is
given by Jim Blair in Message 251:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/251

It was at given the Fourth Anniversary of the
Chicago Group on October 5, 1943.

0 -1 0 0
4200 ricktompkins@comcast.net
Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" 3/27/2007 10:43:00 PM

Your quote comes from a Chicago Central Office
(the Area 19 Service Office) titled AA -- God's
Instrument, published since 1953. Many excerpts
are taken from that pamphlet, the least of
which was Bright Star Press of East Moline,
Illinois in the late 1950s, who began printing
wallet cards called "Why We Were Chosen."

The text is from a prepared talk by AA member
John T. of Chicago, a Circuit Cout Judge
(later an Illinois Appellate Court Judge) at
the Chicago Group's fourth anniversary in 1943.

Chicago Archives has the pamphlet's draft that
is actually about half of his entire scripted
talk (also in the Archives). Many conference
taping compamies can provide you with the
wallet cards---seems like dozens still sell
"Why We Were Chosen." The Judge would be
amused!

Rick, Illinois

0 -1 0 0
4201 Mark W.
Re: A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" A writing on "AA and the Higher Power" 3/28/2007 7:22:00 PM

I found what might be your answer by Googling
"We Are Chosen" without the quotes. It came
up in the first result at, of all places, the
Orange Papers.

Accordingly, it says that this came from an
address given by Judge John T. at the 4th
Anniversary of the Chicago Group on October 5,
1943.

You can see it here;

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Why_We_Were_Chosen.html

If you don't know, the author of the Orange
Papers is not particularly enamored with AA :)
(I'm trying to say it nicely... he's actually
quite vitriolic towards AA)

Mark

______________________________

We also received replies on this topic from
a number of other members of the group, all
referring us to the talk by Judge John Touhy:

"Diz Titcher" <diz49@earthlink.net> (diz49 at earthlink.net)

"Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@charter.net> (bajohanson at charter.net)

Tim Baer <TBaerMojo@aol.com> (TBaerMojo at aol.com)

"Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com> (mitchell_k_archivist at
yahoo.com)

"Mike Brewer" <tuswecaoyate@yahoo.com> (tuswecaoyate at yahoo.com)

"tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com> (tomper99 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4202 iidog@prodigy.net
Camel pins? Camel pins? 4/2/2007 6:56:00 AM

Can anyone tell me the history of the camel
and coffee pins? I know they were wore on the
jacket lapels.

Thank you.
Jane B.

0 -1 0 0
4203 Fiona Dodd
Re: Camel pins? Camel pins? 4/2/2007 4:31:00 PM

"The camel each day goes twice to its knees,
It picks up it's load with the greatest of ease,
It walks through the day with it's head held high,
And stays for that day completely dry."

The origin I have no idea but the symbolism resonates.

Fiona

0 -1 0 0
4204 zooballistic
Big Book Prayers Big Book Prayers 4/5/2007 1:39:00 PM

Can anyone help point me in the right direction
as to where I might find a listing of all the
prayers in the Big Book?

0 -1 0 0
4205 george cleveland
Re: Camel pins and camel poem Camel pins and camel poem 4/4/2007 11:46:00 AM

I always appreciated this verse. Can't find
the origin yet. This site expands the lines
a bit. AND warns us that after a winter of no
drinking, he or she will down 50 gallons at
a sitting!

George Cleveland

http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/africa/091599/091599jasminecamel.html

"The camel each day
Goes twice to his knees
He picks up his load
With the greatest of ease
He walks through the day
With his head held high
And stays dry for that day
Without even a sigh
Ships of the desert
are these great beasts called
join us for a ride,
Come one, come all!"

- - - -

Fiona Dodd wrote:
<fionadodd@eircom.net> (fionadodd at eircom.net)

"The camel each day goes twice to its knees,
It picks up its load with the greatest of ease,
It walks through the day with its head held high,
And stays for that day completely dry."

The origin I have no idea but the symbolism resonates.

Fiona

0 -1 0 0
4206 chesbayman56
Significant April Daates in A.A. History Significant April Daates in A.A. History 4/6/2007 1:06:00 PM

April
April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &
tell them of obsession & allergy.
April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best
Friend" by Jack Alexander.
April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest
desire to stop drinking".
April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service
Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.
April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.
April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big
Book.
April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used
to open AA meetings in Texas.
April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.
April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.
April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.
April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill
W's "spiritual sponsor."
April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking
for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack
Alexander.
April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the
office Bill and Hank P shared.
April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for
A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)
April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones
in New Bedford.
April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-
hitter in baseball history since 1909.
April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the
one millionth copy of the Big Book.
April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
formed. First 'mail order' group.
April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was
formed in Seattle.
April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock
to the Alcoholic Foundation.
April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book
royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.
April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.
April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.
April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.
April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.
April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.
April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation
was broadcast on ABC TV.

0 -1 0 0
4207 Glenn Chesnut
Herbert Spencer quote actually Paley and Poole Herbert Spencer quote actually Paley and Poole 4/5/2007 3:13:00 PM

From: "Des Green" <puggreen2008@yahoo.co.uk>
(puggreen2008 at yahoo.co.uk)

Hi Glenn,

The quote in the BB attributed to Herbert
Spencer "Contempt prior to investigation" etc.

It has come up in my local group that there
is no evidence that he has actually ever said
this.

I have looked on the net but to no avail.

Can you shed some light on to this?

Best wishes to you & yours

Des

- - - -

Des,

Because of all the discussion and controversy
over this, I think it would be useful to give
a little summary (in one place) of what is
known now about the real authorship of this
famous quotation. It seems actually to be a
modification made by a man named Poole in
1879 of a line from a book written by William
Paley in 1794.

Glenn

- - - -

William Paley, A View of the Evidences of
Christianity (1794):
"The infidelity of the Gentile world, and that
more especially of men of rank and learning in
it, is resolved into a principle which, in my
judgment, will account for the inefficacy of
any argument, or any evidence whatever, viz.
contempt prior to examination."

Rev. William H. Poole, Anglo-Israel or, The
British Nation: The Lost Tribes of Israel (1879).
On the title page of this book, Rev. Poole
gives his own modified version of this, but
still attributes it to Paley:
"There is a principle which is a bar against
all information, which is proof against all
argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man
in everlasting ignorance. This principle is,
contempt prior to examination." --Dr. Paley

The Big Book (at the end of Appendix II on
"Spiritual Experience," on page 568 in the
fourth edition) has a version which is almost
identical to Poole's modified version of what
Paley had said:
"There is a principle which is a bar against
all information, which is proof against all
arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man
in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is
contempt prior to investigation." -- Herbert
Spencer

- - - -

To learn more, go to the AAHistoryLovers Message
Board at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

and do a search for Spencer. We've had a lot of
stuff on the Message Board about this quote.

Among other messages, Message 3546 at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3546
says:

Regarding the quote attributed to Herbert Spencer
in the Big Book, I've come across some research
on this quote by Michael St. George:

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/

In what looks to be a very thorough investigation,
St. George concludes that the quote comes from
William Paley rather than Spencer.

- - - -

This excellent and thorough article by by Michael St. George

http://www.geocities.com/fitquotation/

gives all of the background of the quotation. As
he demonstrates, it seems to be a modification
of something originally said by William Paley
in 1794, where the slightly altered version
given by the Rev. William H. Poole in 1879 is
almost identical to the wording in the Big Book.

The mistaken attribution of the quotation to
Herbert Spencer seems to have been common however
in a number of books written in the 1930's,
40's, and 50's. The mistake shows up for the
first time, as far as is now known, in 1931.
How Spencer ever got confused with Paley and
Poole is a complete mystery however. There is
some suggestion that it might have been
carelessness on the part of an editor who put
together a book of famous quotations, and
placed this quotation at the end of a number
of authentic quotations from Paley, without
indicating that this particular quotation
however came from a different source.

The Big Book version makes only four very
minor changes in the 1879 Poole version:
the word "argument" is put in the plural,
there is a dash instead of a period,
"that" is used instead of "this,"
and one comma is removed.

0 -1 0 0
4208 David Jones
Dr. Bob''s story of the A.A. Camel Dr. Bob''s story of the A.A. Camel 4/2/2007 4:45:00 PM

THE AA CAMEL

The camel each day goes twice to his knees.
He picks up his load with the greatest of ease.
He walks through the day with his head held high.
And stays for that day, completely dry.

"Dr. Bob would explain prayer by telling how
the camels in a caravan would kneel down in
the evening, and the men would unload their
burdens. In the morning, they would kneel
down again, and the men would put the burdens
back on. 'It's the same with prayer,' Dr. Bob
said. 'We get on our knees to unload at night.
And in the morning when we get on our knees
again, God gives us just the load we are able
to carry for that day.'" Dr. Bob and the Good
Oldtimers (1980), page 229

- - - -

Same passage on page 229 cited by

Tim <TBaerMojo@aol.com> (TBaerMojo at aol.com)

"David Jones" <davidjones@davidjones3.plus.com>
(davidjones at davidjones3.plus.com)

Floyd J <Azor521@aol.com> (Azor521 at aol.com)

- - - -

"John Wikelius" <nov85_gr@graceba.net>
(nov85_gr at graceba.net)

A camel can go 24 hours without a drink. I
believe the coffee is just the social concept
of fellowship of AA members.

- - - -

"jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

At the first convention I attended in the UK
in 1985 there was a stall selling trinkets,
circle and triangle jewellery, car bumper
stickers etc., including a lot of camel pins
with the figure 24 on them. I was less than a
year sober and I wondered why they had sold out
of all the other years of sobriety except 24!

Go well, Laurie A.

- - - -

Also from Dennis McD <denezmcd@aol.com>
(denezmcd at aol.com)

- - - -

0 -1 0 0
4209 Bob
Re: Camel pins and Camel Prayer Camel pins and Camel Prayer 4/3/2007 9:36:00 PM

The camel is one of the original alcoholics'
symbols of hope. If the camel can go one day
without a drink of water, alcoholics can go
one day without a drink of alcohol,
One Day at a Time.

Dr. Bob, co-founder of the alcoholics org, told
the camel story -- see Dr. Bob and the Good
Oldtimers (1980), page 229.

CAMEL PRAYER

"The tasks of the day can pass with ease
when a camel or I start on our knees.
One Master we serve, the camel and I,
and stay for that day completely dry."

___________________________


Fiona Dodd wrote <fionadodd@eircom.net>
(fionadodd at eircom.net):

"The camel each day goes twice to its knees,
It picks up its load with the greatest of ease,
It walks through the day with its head held high,
And stays for that day completely dry."

0 -1 0 0
4210 PR_Magoo
Camel pins in 1948 Grapevine Camel pins in 1948 Grapevine 4/4/2007 2:31:00 PM

I did a search of the Grapevine digital
archive and in the July 1948, Vol. 5, No. 2
issue, there is mention of a camel:

"Group to Give Oscar for Anniversaries"

"The recognition will take the form of a
Camel. The Camel is wholly emblematic of
the purposes of most sincere A.A.s, i.e.,
to live for 24 hours without a drink."

That is pretty close, in concept, to what
you describe.

Phil

__________________________________

Jane B. wrote <IIdog@prodigy.net>
(iidog at prodigy.net):

> Can anyone tell me the history of the camel
> and coffee pins? I know they were wore on the
> jacket lapels.
>
> Thank you.
> Jane B.

0 -1 0 0
4211 mlb9292
Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 1:32:00 AM

I have been looking for information on the
cost of hospital treatment in 1934-35 at Towns
in New York and the hospitals in Akron. Can
you point me in the right direction or answer
my inquiry.

Also, I have been searching for some reference
to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns
Hospital. Can you give me any information or
steer me toward materials that may hold the
answer?

I have read that Towns was a pretty first
class and expensive private hospital

Thanks, God Bless
Ben H, Tulsa, OK

0 -1 0 0
4212 Bill Lash
RE: Big Book Prayers Big Book Prayers 4/5/2007 8:13:00 PM

Prayers in the Big Book Prior to the Stories

page:paragraph

12:6
For a brief moment, I had needed and wanted
God. There had been a humble willingness to
have Him with me - and He came.

13:2
There I humbly offered myself to God, as I
then understood Him, to do with me as He would.
I placed myself unreservedly under His care
and direction. I admitted for the first time
that of myself I was nothing; that without Him
I was lost.

13:4
I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking only
for direction and strength to meet my problems
as He would have me. Never was I to pray for
myself, except as my requests bore on my
usefulness to others.

63:2
God, I offer myself to thee - to build with me
and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me
of the bondage of self, that I may better do
Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that
victory over them may bear witness to those
I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy
Way of life. May I do Thy will always!

67:0
We asked God to help us show them the same
tolerance, pity, and patience that we would
cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person
offended we said to ourselves, "This is a
sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God
save me from being angry. Thy will be done."

68:3
We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our
attention to what He would have us be.

69:2
We ask God to mold our [sex] ideals and help
us to live up to them.

69:3
In meditation, we ask God what we should do
about each specific matter [sex harms].

70:2
We earnestly pray for the right [sex]
ideal, for guidance in each questionable
situation, for sanity and for the strength
to do the right thing.

75:3
We thank God from the bottom of our heart that
we know Him better.

75:3
Carefully reading the first five proposals we
ask if we have omitted anything, for we are
building an arch through which we shall walk
a free man at last. Is our work solid so far?
Are the stones properly in place? Have we
skimped on the cement put into the foundation?
Have we tried to make mortar without sand?

76:1
If we still cling to something we will not
let go [shortcomings], we ask God to help us
be willing.

76:2
My Creator, I am now willing that You should
have all of me, good and bad. I pray that You
now remove from me every single defect of
character which stands in the way of my
usefulness to You and my fellows. Grant me
strength, as I go out from here, to do Your
bidding. Amen.

76:3
We attempt to sweep away the debris which has
accumulated out of our effort to live on self-
will and run the show ourselves. If we haven't
the will to do this, we ask until it comes
[making amends].

79:1
Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go
to any lengths to find a spiritual experience,
we ask that we be given strength and direction
to do the right thing, no matter what the
personal consequences may be [making amends].

82:1
It may be that both [you & you significant
other] will decide that the way of good sense
and loving kindness is to let by-gones be
by-gones [no direct amends]. Each might pray
about it, having the other one's happiness
uppermost in mind.

83:1
So we clean house with the family, asking each
morning in meditation that our Creator show us
the way of patience, tolerance, kindness and
love.

84:2
When these crop up [selfishness, dishonesty,
resentment and fear], we ask God at once to
remove them.

85:1
How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine)
be done.

86:1
After making our (nightly) review we ask God's
forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures
should be taken.

86:2
Before we begin (meditation), we ask God to
direct our thinking, especially asking that
it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or
self-seeking motives.

86:3 [Facing indecision] Here we ask God for
inspiration, an intuitive thought or a
decision. We relax and take it easy. We don't
struggle.

87:1
We usually conclude the period of meditation
with a prayer that we be shown all through the
day what our next step is to be, that we be
given whatever we need to take care of such
problems. We ask especially for freedom from
self-will, and are careful to make no request
for ourselves only. We may ask for ourselves,
however, if others will be helped. We are
careful never to pray for our own selfish ends.

87:3
As we go through the day we pause, when agitated
or doubtful, and ask for the right thought or
action. We constantly remind ourselves we are
no longer running the show, humbly saying to
ourselves may times each day, "Thy will be
done."

158:2
On the third day the lawyer gave his life to
the care and direction of his Creator, and
said he was perfectly willing to do anything
necessary.

164:2
Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can
do each day for the man who is still sick.

0 -1 0 0
4213 Diz Titcher
Big Book Prayers: the classic old timers'' answer Big Book Prayers: the classic old timers'' answer 4/5/2007 5:26:00 PM

From Diz Ticher, Mitchell K., and Shakey Mike

- - - -

The question was asked by <zoolofttheband@aol.com>
(zoolofttheband at aol.com):

Can anyone help point me in the right direction
as to where I might find a listing of all the
prayers in the Big Book?

- - - -

Answer <diz49@earthlink.net>
(diz49 at earthlink.net)

Look for them yourself, then you will not
forget them.

Diz Titcher

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

You can find them between the front page and
the last page of the big book.

Shakey

- - - -

From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com)

Do I win a prize? I did an Internet search by typing
in "prayers in the big book" and came up with many
different answers. My favorite appears to be an entry
by our very own Barefoot Bill which can be found at
(scroll down the page to find the prayers)
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaworkstep1011.html

There are dozens of search engines available, most of
them do the trick quite well all on their own or you
can used dog pile or copernic or other meta engines
which search multiple search engines. Most, if not all
are free and aid in looking for something.

The Internet is such a wonder full venue to find just
about anything. All you have to do is seek. I remember
reading somewhere that ... seek and ye shall find. For
me, seeking isn't asking someone else to find it for
me.

0 -1 0 0
4214 Azor521@aol.com
Big Book Prayers on Silkworth.net Big Book Prayers on Silkworth.net 4/5/2007 1:38:00 PM

You might find what you want at this site:

http://silkworth.net/aa/prayer.html

- - - -

The same webpage was also recommended by:

Susan Banker NYC <sbanker914@aol.com >
(sbanker914 at aol.com)

"davidrstack" <davidrstack@bellsouth.net>
(davidrstack at bellsouth.net)

jesse gilliam <mr_clean1991@yahoo.com>
(mr_clean1991 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4215 kilroy@ceoexpress.com>
Re: Big Book Prayers Big Book Prayers 4/5/2007 3:31:00 PM

Prayers From The Big Book

"I EARNESTLY ADVISE EVERY ALCOHOLIC TO READ
THIS BOOK THROUGH, AND THOUGH PERHAPS HE CAME
TO SCOFF, HE MAY REMAIN TO PRAY."
William D. Silkworth, MD - Pg. xxx

"GOD IS EVERYTHING OR HE IS NOTHING.
GOD EITHER IS OR HE ISN'T. WHAT WAS OUR
CHOICE TO BE?" Pg. 53

Pg. 59 We asked His protection and care
with complete abandon.

THIRD STEP

Pg. 63 - God, I offer myself to Thee - to
build with me and do with me as Thou wilt.
Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I
may better do Thy will. Take away my
difficulties, that victory over them may bear
witness to those I would help of Thy Power,
Thy Love and Thy Way of Life. May I do Thy
will always!

FOURTH STEP

PG 67 RESENTMENT - We asked God to help us
show them the same tolerance, pity, and
patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick
friend. When a person offended we said
to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I
be helpful to him? God save me from being
angry. Thy will be done."

Pg. 68 FEAR - We ask Him to remove our
fear and direct our attention to what He would
have us be.

Pg. 69 SEX - We asked God to mold our ideals
and help us live up to them.

Pg. 69 SEX - In meditation, we ask God what
we do about each specific matter.

Pg. 70 SEX - To sum up about sex: We pray
for the right ideal, for guidance in each
questionable situation, for sanity and for
strength to do the right thing.

FIFTH STEP

Pg. 75 We thank God from the bottom of our
heart that we know Him better.

Pg. 75 we ask if we have omitted anything,

SIXTH STEP

Pg. 76 If we still cling to something we will
not let go, we ask God to help us be willing.

SEVENTH STEP

Pg. 76 My Creator, I am now willing that
You should have all of me, good and bad. I
pray that You now remove from me every single
defect of character which stands in the
way of my usefulness to you and my fellows.
Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to
do Your bidding. Amen

EIGHTH STEP

Pg. 76 If we haven't the will to do this,
we ask until it comes.

NINETH STEP

Pg. 79 LEGAL MATTERS - We ask that we be
given strength and direction to do the
right thing, no matter what the personal
consequences might be.

Pg. 80 OTHERS EFFECTED - If we have obtained
permission, have consulted with others, asked
God to help.

Pg. 82 INFIDELITY - Each might pray about it,
having the other one's happiness uppermost in
mind.

Pg. 83 FAMILY - So we clean house with the
family, asking each morning in meditation
that our Creator show us the way of
patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.

TENTH STEP

Pg. 84 Continue to watch for
selfishness, dishonesty, resentment and
fear. When these crop up, we ask God at
once to remove them.

Pg. 85 Everyday is a day when we must
carry the vision of God's will into all
our activities. "How can I best serve
Thee--Thy will (not mine) be done".

ELEVENTH STEP

Pg. 86 NIGHT After mediation on the day just
completed, "We ask God's forgiveness and
inquire what corrective measures should be
taken."

Pg. 86 MORNING Before we begin our day,
"we ask God to direct our thinking, especially
asking that it be divorced from self-pity,
dishonest or self-seeking motives."

Pg. 86 MORNING In thinking about our
day, "We ask God for inspiration, an intuitive
thought or decision".

Pg. 87 MORNING We usually conclude the
period of mediation with a prayer that
we be shown all through the day what our
next step is to be, that we be given whatever
we need to take care of such problems.
We especially ask for freedom from self-will,
and are careful to make no requests for
ourselves only We may ask for ourselves,
however, if others will be helped. We are
careful never to pray for our own selfish ends.

Pg. 87 - 88 ALL DAY As we go through the
day we pause, when agitated or doubtful,
and ask for the right thought or action.

TWELFTH STEP

Pg. 164 Ask Him in your morning
meditation what you can do each day for
the man who is still sick. The answers
will come IF your own house is in order.

Pg. 102
Your job now is to be at the place where
you may be of maximum helpfulness to others,
so never hesitate to go anywhere if you
can be helpful. You should not hesitate
to visit the most sordid spot on earth on
such an errand. Keep on the firing line
of life with these motives and God
will keep you unharmed.

0 -1 0 0
4216 lester112985
Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 1:26:00 PM

Bill Wilson's discharge slip on page 104
in Pass It On states $125.00 for 7 days of
treatment.

Happy 24

0 -1 0 0
4217 george brown
Re: Big Book Prayers Big Book Prayers 4/6/2007 4:25:00 PM

From George Brown, mrjamesc1989, and Jay Lawyer

- - - -

From: george brown <gbaa487@yahoo.com>
(gbaa487 at yahoo.com)

Besides the obvious places, i.e. 3rd and 7th
step prayer, I've been told that wherever you
see the word "ask" that we are being instructed
to pray.

- - - -

From: mrjamesc1989@aol.com
(mrjamesc1989 at aol.com)

3rd step prayer page 63 and 7th step prayer page 76

- - - -

From: "Jay Lawyer" <ejlawyer@midtel.net>
(ejlawyer at midtel.net)

My own handout sheet for sponsees that
have done the work.

0 -1 0 0
4218 Jay Pees
RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 2:17:00 PM

In a lead I heard on tape of Bill, that his
brother-in-law, Dr Leonard Strong, paid for
his time in the hospital. I have seen nothing
in print on that.

- - - -

The question that was asked:

Also, I have been searching for some reference
to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns
Hospital. Can you give me any information or
steer me toward materials that may hold the
answer?

I have read that Towns was a pretty first
class and expensive private hospital

Thanks, God Bless
Ben H, Tulsa, OK

0 -1 0 0
4219 Tom White
Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 2:44:00 PM

Ben:

I think it was top of the heap in those days.
It would seem, I'm sure, unreally low in price
in terms of 2007 dollars.

But you have to use a multiple (easily obtained
from a govt. website) to get from 1935 dollars
to today's dollars. I use a rough measure:
a nickel candy bar in 1935 would be anywhere
from 50 cents to 95 cents today. And remember,
enormous gains in automation and other stuff
would have tended to keep the price low on
things like candy bars.

I think it's clear that even at the end Bill
(and Bob too) were hooked up with enough of
the establishment to have been still a distance
from skid row, but it was waiting.

Tom W. Odessa, TX

0 -1 0 0
4220 Baileygc23@aol.com
St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 4/7/2007 11:18:00 AM

In addition to quotation mistakenly attributed
to Spencer, Mel did call to my attention that
the St. Francis prayer is a modern prayer that
has been wrongly attributed to St. Francis.
Bill W. used it in the 12&12.

- - - -

From the moderator: Glenn C. (South Bend, IN)

Checking through our Past Messages, I can't
find a quick summary of what is currently
known about the authorship of the St. Francis
Prayer, so let me give one here.

It was not actually written by the medieval
saint. The earliest known version only dates
back to 1912. I have read that there were
early copies of this prayer printed on little
cards with a picture of St. Francis on the
other side of the card, which is where the
prayer got connected with that saint's name.

The Wikipedia account of what is known about
the prayer seems to be fairly accurate, so
I will just quote that:

- - - -

Prayer of Saint Francis in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_St._Francis

The Prayer of Saint Francis is a Christian
prayer for Peace widely attributed to the
13th century saint Francis of Assisi, although
the prayer in its present form cannot be traced
back further than 1912, when it was printed in
France in French, in a small spiritual magazine
called La Clochette (The Little Bell), as an
anonymous prayer, as demonstrated by Dr
Christian Renoux in 2001.

The prayer has been known in USA since 1936
and Cardinal Francis Spellman distributed
billions of copies of the prayer during the
WW II. It was the beginning of its
international career.

The original version of the prayer is the
following :

Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe

Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.
Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l’amour.
Là où il y a l’offense, que je mette le pardon.
Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l’union.
Là où il y a l’erreur, que je mette la vérité.
Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.
Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l’espérance.
Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.
Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.
Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être
consolé qu’à consoler, à être compris qu’à
comprendre, à être aimé qu’à aimer, car c’est
en donnant qu’on reçoit, c’est en s’oubliant
qu’on trouve, c’est en pardonnant qu’on est
pardonné, c’est en mourant qu’on ressuscite
à l’éternelle vie.

La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285.

More than 100 different English versions of the text exist.

One well known translation is found in Chapter
11 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,"
a book published by AA Services (Alcoholics
Anonymous).

Lord, make me a channel of thy peace;
that where there is hatred, I may bring love;
that where there is wrong, I may bring the
spirit of forgiveness;
that where there is discord, I may bring harmony;
that where there is error, I may bring truth;
that where there is doubt, I may bring faith;
that where there is despair, I may bring hope;
that where there are shadows, I may bring light;
that where there is sadness, I may bring joy.
Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort
than to be comforted;
to understand, than to be understood;
to love, than to be loved.
For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.
It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.
It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life.
Amen.

The hymn version of Make Me A Channel of
Your Peace is an anthem of the Royal British
Legion and is usually sung every year at the
Service of Remembrance in November at the
Royal Albert Hall, London. It goes as
follows:

Make me a channel of your peace,
Where there is hatred let me bring your love,
Where there is injury your pardon Lord,
And where there's doubt true faith in you.
Lord grant that I may never seek,
So much to be consoled as to console,
To be understood; as to understand,
To be loved as to love with all my soul.
Make me a channel of your peace,
Where there is hatred let me bring your love,
Where there is injury your pardon Lord,
And where there's doubt true faith in you.

0 -1 0 0
4221 Tom Hickcox
Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/7/2007 3:29:00 PM

At 12:26 4/7/2007 , lester112985 wrote:

>Bill Wilson's discharge slip on page 104
>in Pass It On states $125.00 for 7 days of
>treatment.

This site's inflation adjuster

<http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl>

says $1.00 in 1935 would be equivalent to $14.85
in 2007 dollars.

$125 x 14.85 = $1,856.25

This is in line with estimates of a Big Book's
price of around $50.00 today if the price
kept up with inflation.

Tommy

0 -1 0 0
4222 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital 4/7/2007 11:41:00 AM

Here is a source that shows how low wages were
in the United States in the 1930s.

In the 1930s, organized labor unions
( http://www.wisegeek.com/how-did-labor-unions-start.htm )
along with the Democratic politicians who
supported them, began to demand a standardized
minimum wage for all workers.

In 1935, President Franklin Roosevelt proposed
the first federal minimum wage under his
National Recovery Act. This act called for a
minimum wage of 25 cents per hour.

The Supreme Court struck down the National
Recovery Act as unconstitutional, rendering
the minimum wage unenforceable. In 1938,
the Fair Labor Standards Act reinstated the
same 25 cent federal minimum wage, along with
the legal mechanisms necessary to adjust it
over time.

At first this act only covered a few
transportation and agricultural industries,
but later amendments included service workers
and general laborers.

0 -1 0 0
4223 Mitchell K.
conference-approved conference-approved 4/8/2007 10:42:00 AM

Does anyone have a copy of the article
published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's
entitled "What is Conference Approved
Literature?"

I believe it was from the August 1976 edition.
I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a
box but can't find it at the moment. It appears
from meetings I have gone to,lately and from
some posts on the Internet, there has to be a
reminder of what exactly conference approval
really means.

Some AA members of today tout loudly and with
venom that conference approval means that ONLY
conference approved literature should be
read by AA members. No mention of so-called
non-approved materials should be made at
meetings and some even mention that they have
seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS
stating that ONLY conference-approved literature
is allowed at meetings.

Can someone post that article as it is an
official AAWS document defining policy on
the use, reading of and having literature other
than conference-approved at meetings.

Also, does anyone have any documentation from
AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated
in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does
oppose non-conference approved literature and
its use by AA members.

0 -1 0 0
4224 Arthur S
RE: RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town''s Hospital in 1934 4/8/2007 10:20:00 PM

Charles B Towns and the Towns Hospital (which includes Dr William D
Silkworth) played a key role in a number of facets of AA history.

Source references:

AABB - Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book, AAWS
AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS
AGAA - The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Dick B
BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen
BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan
BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography
EBBY - Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by Mel B
GB - Getting Better Inside Alcoholics Anonymous by Nan Robertson
GTBT - Grateful to Have Been There by Nell Wing
LOH - The Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine Inc
LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson
NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz
NW - New Wine, by Mel B
PIO - Pass It On, AAWS
RAA - The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Pittman
SD - Slaying the Dragon, by William L White
SM - AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for World Service, AAWS
SW - Silkworth - the Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, by Dale Mitchell

Past dollar amounts below are converted to 2006 dollar values expressed as
"($nnn today)" using consumer price index (CPI) conversion factors offered,
via the internet, by Professor Robert C Sahr, Oregon State University at
Corvallis.

http://oregonstate.edu/cla/polisci/faculty/sahr/infcf16652007.pdf

Timeline:

1862:- Charles B. Towns was born on a small farm in central GA. (RAA 84)

1901: The Charles B Towns Hospital for Drug and Alcohol Addictions opened in
NYC. It was a private "drying out" hospital for the affluent. It initially
opened on 81st and 82nd Streets and later moved to 293 Central Park West.
Towns also later opened an annex (behind the Central Park facility) at 119 W
81st St to provide treatment for patients of "moderate means." Hospital fees
had to be paid in advance, or be guaranteed. Treatment fees for alcoholism
ran from $75 to $150 in the main hospital ($1,705 to $3,409 today) and $50
($1,136 today) in the annex. (SD 84-85, SW 125)

Note: there appears to be evidence that Bill W had four admissions to Towns
hospital although history material distributed by GSO says three admissions.

1930: Neurologist, Dr William Duncan Silkworth (nicknamed "Silky") after
losing his investments and savings in the stock market crash, started work
at Towns Hospital earning $40 a week ($482 today). Charles Towns did not see
eye to eye with Silkworth on alcoholism as an illness. (PIO 101, SW 30-31)
(NG 22 says Silkworth arrived in 1924)

1933: Autumn, Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at Macy's ($352 today) turned
to her brother-in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged, and paid for, Bill
W's first admission to Towns Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna
cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging and puking" aided by, among
other things, castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was used to ease the
symptoms of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15,
310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174)

1934:

July (?), Bill W's second admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr
Leonard V Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first time. Silkworth
explained the obsession and allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking
again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill was unemployable, $50,000 in
debt ($757,576 today) suicidal and drinking around the clock. (AACOA 52, PIO
106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 50-55)

September 17, Bill W's third admission to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr
Leonard V Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill as hopeless and informed
Lois that Bill would likely have to be committed. Bill left the hospital a
deeply frightened man and sheer terror kept him sober. He found a little
work on Wall St, which began to restore his badly shattered confidence. (PIO
106-109, LR 87, AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310, BW-FH 4-5, 54-55)

December 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to Towns Hospital and had
his last drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got financial
help from his mother, Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197,
RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31). (Note: the 7-day hospital
bill of $125 shown on PIO 104 would be $1,894 today).

December 14, Ebby visited Bill W at Towns Hospital and told him about the
Oxford Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell into a deep depression
(his "deflation at depth") and had a profound spiritual experience after
crying out "If there be a God, will he show himself." Dr Silkworth later
assured Bill he was not crazy and told him to hang on to what he had found.
In a lighter vein, Bill and others would later refer to this as his "white
flash" or "hot flash" experience. (AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148,
NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111, LOH 278-279)

December 15, Ebby (or possibly Rowland Hazard) brought Bill W a copy of
William James' book The Varieties of Religious Experience. Bill was deeply
inspired by the book. It revealed three key points for recovery: 1) calamity
or complete defeat in some vital area of life (what we today call "hitting
bottom"), 2) admission of defeat (what we today call "surrender") and 3)
appeal to a higher power for help (what we today call "acceptance"). The
book strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in the Big Book. (AACOA
62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70, SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313, NW 24-25,
PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28)

December 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began working with drunks. He
and Lois attended Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C at Calvary
House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG's
US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave (now Park Ave) and 21st St.
Calvary House (where OG meetings were usually held) was at 61 Gramercy Park.
Calvary Mission was located at 346 E 23rd St. (AABB 14-16, AACOA vii, LR
197, BW-40 155-160, NG 24-25, PIO 127, GB 32-33, AGAA 144)

December (late), after Oxford Group meetings, Bill W and other OG alcoholics
met at Stewart's Cafeteria near the Calvary Mission. Attendees included
Rowland H and Ebby T. (BW-RT 207, BW-40 160, AAGA 141-142, NG 314)

1935:

Early, Bill W worked with alcoholics at the Calvary Mission and Towns
Hospital, emphasizing his "hot flash" spiritual experience. Alcoholic Oxford
Group members began meeting at his home on Clinton St. Bill had no success
sobering up others. (AACOA vii, AABB, BW-FH 69, PIO 131-133)

April, Bill W had a talk with Dr Silkworth who advised him to stop preaching
about his "hot flash" experience and hit the alcoholics hard with the
medical view. Silkworth advised Bill to break down the strong egos of
alcoholics by telling them about the obsession that condemned them to drink
and allergy that condemned them to go mad or die. It would then be easier to
get them to accept the spiritual solution. (AACOA 13, 67-68, BW-RT 211, NG
25-26, PIO 133)

Winter, Henry (Hank) Parkhurst (Big Book Story - The Unbeliever) and John
Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) Mayo (Big Book Story - Our Southern Friend) sobered up
at Towns Hospital. Hank and Fitz provided a big help to Bill Wm over the
next few years. Hank started AA in NJ at his house and Fitz started AA in
Washington, DC (AACOA 16-17, 74, LR 101, BW-RT 225-226, NG 43-44) (PIO 191
says 1937)

1936: December, Charles Towns offered Bill W a very lucrative job at his
hospital as a lay alcoholism therapist. Bill wanted it. The question was
presented to the NY group meeting in Bill's home. They rejected it. This was
the emergence of the Traditions principle "God speaking in the group
conscience is to be our final authority." (AACOA 100-102, LR 197, BW-RT
232-234, NG 63-64, PIO 175-177)

1938: September, board Trustee Frank Amos arranged a meeting between Bill W
and Eugene Exman (Religious Editor of Harper Brothers publishers). Exman
offered Bill a $1,500 advance ($21,429 today) on the rights to the book. The
Alcoholic Foundation Board urged acceptance of the offer. Instead, Hank P
and Bill formed Works Publishing Co. and sold stock at $25 par value ($357
today). 600 shares were issued: Hank and Bill received 200 shares each, 200
shares were sold to others. Later, 30 shares of preferred stock, at $100 par
value ($1,300 today) were sold as well. To mollify the board, it was decided
that the author's royalty (which would ordinarily be Bill's) could go to the
Alcoholic Foundation. (LR 197, BW-FH 116-119, SM S6, PIO 193-195, AACOA 157,
188) Encouraged by Dr Silkworth, Charles Towns loaned Hank and Bill $2,500
for the book. It was later increased to $4,000. ($57,143 today). (PIO 196,
SM S7, LOH 176, AACOA 13-14, 153-159)

1939: September 30, Liberty Magazine, headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a
piece titled Alcoholics and God by Morris Markey (who was influenced to
write the article by Charles Towns). It generated about 800 inquiries from
around the nation. Oursler (author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became
good friends with Bill W and later served as a Trustee and member of the
Grapevine editorial board. (AACOA 176-178, LOH 145, 180-183 BW-FH 127-129,
PIO 223-224)

1945: October 20, Dr William Duncan Silkworth was hired as director of
alcoholic treatment at the Knickerbocker Hospital in NYC. He worked at both
the Towns and Knickerbocker Hospitals until his death in 1951. Alcoholics
were referred to the "AA Ward" at Knickerbocker Hospital by the NY
Intergroup Association. (SW 83, AACOA 206)

1947: February 20, Charles B Towns died. (SD 86)

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Pees
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 1:17 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Hospital costs for Alcoholics at Town's
Hospital in 1934

In a lead I heard on tape of Bill, that his
brother-in-law, Dr Leonard Strong, paid for
his time in the hospital. I have seen nothing
in print on that.

- - - -

The question that was asked:

Also, I have been searching for some reference
to how Bill paid for his visits to Towns
Hospital. Can you give me any information or
steer me toward materials that may hold the
answer?

I have read that Towns was a pretty first
class and expensive private hospital

Thanks, God Bless
Ben H, Tulsa, OK



Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
4225 oys.jerry5672
Camel Pins Camel Pins 4/9/2007 3:38:00 PM

I was recently doing some research on sobriety
lapel pins and talked to a employee at
Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were
formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She
put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or
Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He
shared with me that a man named Frank B. made
the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a
member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis
(Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were
made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe
was located in Minneapolis at the time. They
are now located in Crystal MN. and currently
have pins in stock. The oldest one I have
was my fathers and it has a screw on back and
those made today have a clutch back. They
are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with
24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an
inch in size. I purchased some of them a
number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to
$6.00.

Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/
Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis,
Minnesota, in the 1940's.

At this point in time again from my perception
I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold.
I would tend to believe that Frank designed
the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the
mold.

I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather
more information. Which means that "More
Will Be Revealed".

Jerry Oys
Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist

0 -1 0 0
4226 smithdewan
Date of White Light experience at Towns Date of White Light experience at Towns 4/9/2007 3:53:00 PM

Do we know the exact date of Bill's mystical
experience and how was it determined?

I have only seen Towns admittance and release
dates in print.

Thanks Jack S.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Message 3890 from chesbayman56@yahoo.com
(chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) gives these dates:

Dec 11, 1934 - Bill admitted to Towns Hosp 4th/last time
Dec 12, 1934 - Bill has Spiritual Experience at Towns Hospital.

But in messages which appeared later on,
the commemoration ceremony seems to have
been set on December 10th:

Message 3938 from mweemwow@yahoo.com
(mweemwow at yahoo.com)

Message 3920 from Robt Woodson
<Robt Woodson <wdywdsn@sbcglobal.net>
(wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net)

0 -1 0 0
4227 Li Lightfoot
Gay groups listed in schedules Gay groups listed in schedules 4/9/2007 6:15:00 PM

Hey Folks:

I am working on an article to be published
in the San Francisco Fellowship's newsletter
on the first Gay groups in A.A. We know that
there was a lot of controversy about listing
Gay and Lesbian Groups in the schedules and
that this was eventually overcome.

Does anyone know the details of this history
or know where I might find out about it?

Thanks,

Li Lightfoot
The Point Committee

0 -1 0 0
4228 ckbudnick
Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity Lewis F. Presnall: The Search for Serenity 4/10/2007 11:47:00 PM

A friend gave me a copy of "The Search For
Serenity and How to Achieve It" by Lewis F.
Presnall (1959), published by the Utah
Alcoholism Foundation.

He says he used to see the book in the rooms
when he got sober 30 years ago. I was curious
if anyone has any additional information about
the author, the book or its place in AA history.

Thanks,

Chris B.
Raleigh, NC

0 -1 0 0
4229 silkworthdotnet
Re: St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 St. Francis Prayer written in 1912 4/12/2007 10:22:00 AM

Dr. Renoux' research on the St Francis of
Assisi prayer. The Original Text of this very
popular Prayer and the history of its origin:

The Origin of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis*
by Dr. Christian Renoux,
Associate Professor of the University of Orleans, France
Original Text of the Peace Prayer of St. Francis
Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe
Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.
Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l'amour.
Là où il y a l'offense, que je mette le pardon.
Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union.
Là où il y a l'erreur, que je mette la vérité.
Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.
Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l'espérance.
Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.
Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.
Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être
consolé qu'à consoler, à être compris qu'à
comprendre, à être aimé qu'à aimer, car c'est
en donnant qu'on reçoit, c'est en s'oubliant
qu'on trouve, c'est en pardonnant qu'on est
pardonné, c'est en mourant qu'on ressuscite
à l'éternelle vie.

Source: La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285.

Origin of this Prayer

The first appearance of the Peace Prayer
occurred in France in 1912 in a small spiritual
magazine called La Clochette (The Little Bell).
It was published in Paris by a Catholic
association known as La Ligue de la Sainte-
Messe (The Holy Mass League), founded in 1901
by a French priest, Father Esther Bouquerel
(1855-1923). The prayer bore the title of
'Belle prière à faire pendant la messe'
(A Beautiful Prayer to Say During the Mass),
and was published anonymously. The author
could possibly have been Father Bouquerel
himself, but the identity of the author
remains a mystery.

The prayer was sent in French to Pope
Benedict XV in 1915 by the French Marquis
Stanislas de La Rochethulon. This was soon
followed by its 1916 appearance, in Italian,
in L'Osservatore Romano [the Vatican's daily
newspaper].

Around 1920, the prayer was printed by a
French Franciscan priest on the back of an
image of St. Francis with the title 'Prière
pour la paix' (Prayer for Peace) but without
being attributed to the saint. Between the
two world wars, the prayer circulated in Europe
and was translated into English. Its has been
attributed the first time to saint Francis in
1927 by a French Protestant Movement, Les
Chevaliers du Prince de la Paix (The Knights
of the Prince of Peace), founded by Étienne
Bach (1892-1986).

The first translation in English that we know
of appeared in 1936 in Living Courageously, a
book by Kirby Page (1890-1957), a Disciple of
Christ minister, pacifist, social evangelist,
writer and editor of The World Tomorrow (New
York City). Page clearly attributed the text
to St. Francis of Assisi. During World War II
and immediately after, this prayer for peace
began circulating widely as the Prayer of St.
Francis, specially through Francis Cardinal
Spellman's books, and over the years has
gained a worldwide popularity with people of
all faiths.

For more information : see the book by Dr.
Christian Renoux, La prière pour la paix
attribuée à saint François : une énigme à
résoudre, Paris, Editions franciscaines,
2001, 210 p. : 12.81 euros + shipping
(ISBN : 2-85020-096-4). -- Order From:
Éditions franciscaines, 9, rue Marie-Rose
F-75014 Paris.

Author's Note: Dr. Christian Renoux is
continuing his research on the propagation
of this prayer, and is looking for new
information about its publication in English
between 1925 and 1945, and in all other
languages between 1912 and today. If you
have such information, please contact him
at contacted at this email address.
---------------------------------
The Franciscan Archive wishes to thank Dr. Renoux for permission to publish
the Original Text of this very popular Prayer and the history of its origin.
---------------------------------
*From The Franciscan Archive

Yours in service,
Jim M.


Baileygc23@aol.com wrote:
In addition to quotation mistakenly attributed
to Spencer, Mel did call to my attention that
the St. Francis prayer is a modern prayer that
has been wrongly attributed to St. Francis.
Bill W. used it in the 12&12.

- - - -

From the moderator: Glenn C. (South Bend, IN)

Checking through our Past Messages, I can't
find a quick summary of what is currently
known about the authorship of the St. Francis
Prayer, so let me give one here.

It was not actually written by the medieval
saint. The earliest known version only dates
back to 1912. I have read that there were
early copies of this prayer printed on little
cards with a picture of St. Francis on the
other side of the card, which is where the
prayer got connected with that saint's name.

The Wikipedia account of what is known about
the prayer seems to be fairly accurate, so
I will just quote that:

- - - -

Prayer of Saint Francis in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_St._Francis

The Prayer of Saint Francis is a Christian
prayer for Peace widely attributed to the
13th century saint Francis of Assisi, although
the prayer in its present form cannot be traced
back further than 1912, when it was printed in
France in French, in a small spiritual magazine
called La Clochette (The Little Bell), as an
anonymous prayer, as demonstrated by Dr
Christian Renoux in 2001.

The prayer has been known in USA since 1936
and Cardinal Francis Spellman distributed
billions of copies of the prayer during the
WW II. It was the beginning of its
international career.

The original version of the prayer is the
following :

Belle prière à faire pendant la Messe

Seigneur, faites de moi un instrument de votre paix.
Là où il y a de la haine, que je mette l’amour.
Là où il y a l’offense, que je mette le pardon.
Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l’union.
Là où il y a l’erreur, que je mette la vérité.
Là où il y a le doute, que je mette la foi.
Là où il y a le désespoir, que je mette l’espérance.
Là où il y a les ténèbres, que je mette votre lumière.
Là où il y a la tristesse, que je mette la joie.
Ô Maître, que je ne cherche pas tant à être
consolé qu’à consoler, à être compris qu’à
comprendre, à être aimé qu’à aimer, car c’est
en donnant qu’on reçoit, c’est en s’oubliant
qu’on trouve, c’est en pardonnant qu’on est
pardonné, c’est en mourant qu’on ressuscite
à l’éternelle vie.

La Clochette, n° 12, déc. 1912, p. 285.

More than 100 different English versions of the text exist.

One well known translation is found in Chapter
11 of the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,"
a book published by AA Services (Alcoholics
Anonymous).

Lord, make me a channel of thy peace;
that where there is hatred, I may bring love;
that where there is wrong, I may bring the
spirit of forgiveness;
that where there is discord, I may bring harmony;
that where there is error, I may bring truth;
that where there is doubt, I may bring faith;
that where there is despair, I may bring hope;
that where there are shadows, I may bring light;
that where there is sadness, I may bring joy.
Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort
than to be comforted;
to understand, than to be understood;
to love, than to be loved.
For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.
It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.
It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life.
Amen.

The hymn version of Make Me A Channel of
Your Peace is an anthem of the Royal British
Legion and is usually sung every year at the
Service of Remembrance in November at the
Royal Albert Hall, London. It goes as
follows:

Make me a channel of your peace,
Where there is hatred let me bring your love,
Where there is injury your pardon Lord,
And where there's doubt true faith in you.
Lord grant that I may never seek,
So much to be consoled as to console,
To be understood; as to understand,
To be loved as to love with all my soul.
Make me a channel of your peace,
Where there is hatred let me bring your love,
Where there is injury your pardon Lord,
And where there's doubt true faith in you.

0 -1 0 0
4230 johnpublico
Re: Camel Pins Camel Pins 4/12/2007 9:38:00 AM

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the great info about the Camel Pins.

After snooping around the internet for a bit,
I think the jewelry store is Hantgen's Jewelry.
They are still in Minneapolis, at the Crystal
Shopping Centre. (I think Crystal is a
neighborhood or town within the city limits,
like Fridley).

Phone number is (763) 537-7233.

Let us know what you find out and whether
they take mail orders (I'm in North Carolina).

John K.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "oys.jerry5672"
<oys.jerry@...> wrote:
>
> I was recently doing some research on sobriety
> lapel pins and talked to a employee at
> Wendell's located in Anoka MN. (They were
> formerly located in Minneapolis MN.). She
> put me onto a man named Bill W. (Ironic or
> Coincidence) that worked for Wendell's. He
> shared with me that a man named Frank B. made
> the mold for the Camel Pin. Frank was a
> member of the Mother Club in Minneapolis
> (Now known as 2218). The pins in turn were
> made by Jo Hantigans Jewelry which I believe
> was located in Minneapolis at the time. They
> are now located in Crystal MN. and currently
> have pins in stock. The oldest one I have
> was my fathers and it has a screw on back and
> those made today have a clutch back. They
> are dark maroon in color rimed in gold with
> 24 in the center and approx. 3/8 X 3/8 of an
> inch in size. I purchased some of them a
> number of years ago at a cost of $3.00 to
> $6.00.
>
> Therefore from my perception the Birthplace/
> Orgin of the Camel Pin is Minneapolis,
> Minnesota, in the 1940's.
>
> At this point in time again from my perception
> I do not believe that Frank B. made the mold.
> I would tend to believe that Frank designed
> the pin. As a Goldsmith would have made the
> mold.
>
> I plan on visiting Jo Hantigans to gather
> more information. Which means that "More
> Will Be Revealed".
>
> Jerry Oys
> Southern Minnesota Area 36 Archivist
>

0 -1 0 0
4231 Des Green
Did Dr. Silkworth ever treat women alcoholics? Did Dr. Silkworth ever treat women alcoholics? 4/12/2007 4:53:00 AM

Greetings,

Are there any records that show lady alcoholics
being treated by Dr Silkworth, at Towns or
otherwise ?

Best wishes to all

Des

0 -1 0 0
4232 Arthur S
RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/12/2007 2:38:00 AM

The information you are looking for is
currently published in "The Group Handbook"
(cost $11.00 publication M-36 from GSO).
The handbook is sent to every new group that
registers with GSO. It contains two pages
titled "Conference-Approved Literature."
You can also check message 3369 for a past
AAHL posting that contains the information.

The key paragraph of interest regarding the
term "Conference-approved" states:

"The term has no relation to material not
published by G.S.O. It does not ["not" is
underlined] imply Conference disapproval of
other material about A.A. A great deal of
literature helpful to alcoholics is
published by others, and A.A. does not
try to tell any individual member what he
or she may or may not read."

There is a substantial amount of AA
literature that is not Conference-approved:

*Grapevine (and its non-English counterparts)
*Box 459
*Guidelines (the "yellow sheets")
*Markings (the GSO Archives newsletter)
*About AA (PI releases)
*Directories
*Advisory Actions of the General Service
Conference of AA (M-39)
*Final reports of the General Service
Conference Literature published by GSOs
other than the US/Canada and AAWS
*Final reports of the World Service Conference
*Memento booklets from International Conventions
*Literature catalogs and flyers (AAWS
and Grapevine)
*Non-English interpretations of books/pamphlets
*Various GSO publications called
"service pieces."
*Publications by Central Offices and Areas.

All the above are a valid part of "AA literature."

As an item of interest the term "Conference-
approved" would likely be better stated as
"Conference-committee-approved."

It is a rare, rare event when all Delegates
at a Conference get a chance to review a piece
of literature prior to voting on it. The
review is usually done by a committee of
several Delegates. The remainder of the
Delegates typically vote, sight unseen,
for/against the literature based on the
recommendation of the committee (that's how
the Foreword to the 4th edition statement
about on-line meetings and the punctuation
changes in "Dr Bob's Nightmare" and other
changes slipped past Conference review). While
all the Delegates vote on the literature, only
a fraction of them actually gets to read it
prior to voting.

How each group deals with Conference-approved
or non-Conference-approved literature is a
matter of group conscience (Tradition 2 is
the means to the ultimate authority) and is
not dictated by any Conference ("Our leaders
are but trusted servants they do not govern").
No Conference would presume to tell a group
what to do. Some Conference advisory actions
of interest that would attest to this:

1951 It was recommended that: In future years,
A.A. textbook literature should have Conference
approval. (Agenda Committee) Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
adoption of the suggestion would not preclude
the continued issuance of various printed
documents by non-Foundation sources. No
desire to review, edit or censor non-Foundation
material is implied. The objective is to provide,
in the future, a means of distinguishing
Foundation literature from that issued locally
or by non-A.A. interests.

1961: The Committee recommended that G.S.O.
explore the possibility of preparing a more
adequate description of Conference-approved
literature.

1964: Regarding pamphlets and literature other
than that which is Conference-approved being
displayed or sold at area and state conferences,
it was the sense of the meeting that we have
no authority in this area. It is to be noted
that all Conference-approved literature should
be made available at A.A. get-togethers.

1972: It be suggested that when a local A.A.
facility (central office, intergroup, group,
etc.) sells non-Conference-approved literature,
it be clearly designated as such.

The Conference has always voted to keep the
two types of literature separate and clearly
identified. It has never voted to ban
non-Conference-approved literature.

If you visit GSO in NY and go to the archives
exhibit area, you will see an entire wall of
book cases filled with literature that is not
Conference-approved but very relevant to
alcoholism and recovery. Visitors are
encouraged to use the reading area to review
them. My last visit was a few years ago but
I don't think anything has changed.

Cheers
Arthur

*************************************

AAHL Message 4223
"Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

Does anyone have a copy of the article
published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's
entitled "What is Conference Approved
Literature?"

I believe it was from the August 1976 edition.
I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a
box but can't find it at the moment. It appears
from meetings I have gone to,lately and from
some posts on the Internet, there has to be a
reminder of what exactly conference approval
really means.

Some AA members of today tout loudly and with
venom that conference approval means that ONLY
conference approved literature should be
read by AA members. No mention of so-called
non-approved materials should be made at
meetings and some even mention that they have
seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS
stating that ONLY conference-approved literature
is allowed at meetings.

Can someone post that article as it is an
official AAWS document defining policy on
the use, reading of and having literature other
than conference-approved at meetings.

Also, does anyone have any documentation from
AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated
in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does
oppose non-conference approved literature and
its use by AA members.

0 -1 0 0
4233 Bill Lash
RE: conference-approved conference-approved 4/12/2007 7:36:00 AM

WHAT DOES “CONFERENCE-APPROVED LITERATURE” MEAN?

Service Material From G.S.O.

"Conference-approved" – What It Means to You

The term “Conference-approved” describes
written or audiovisual material approved by
the Conference for publication by G.S.O.
This process assures that everything in such
literature is in accord with A.A. principles.
Conference-approved material always deals with
the recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous
or with information about the A.A. Fellowship.

The term has no relation to material not
published by G.S.O. It does not imply
Conference disapproval of other material
about A.A. A great deal of literature helpful
to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual
member what he or she may or may not read.

Conference approval assures us that a piece
of literature represents solid A.A. experience.
Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet
goes through a lengthy and painstaking process,
during which a variety of A.A.’s from all over
the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production.

How To Tell What Is and What
Is Not Conference-approved

Look for the statement on books,
pamphlets and films:

"This is A.A. General Service
Conference-approved literature"



All “A.A. Literature” Is Not
Conference-approved

Central offices and intergroups do write and
distribute pamphlets or booklets that are not
Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be
legitimately classified as "A.A. literature."
There is no conflict between A.A. World
Services, Inc. (A.A.W.S. – publishers of
Conference-approved literature), and central
offices or intergroups – rather they complement
each other. The Conference does not disapprove
of such material.

G.S.O. does develop some literature that does
not have to be approved by the Conference,
such as service material, Guidelines and
bulletins.

Available at Most A.A. Groups

Most local A.A. groups purchase and display a
representative sampling of Conference-approval
pamphlets, and usually carry a supply of
hardcover books. Conference-approved
literature may be available at central
offices and intergroups, or it may be ordered
directly from G.S.O. Groups normally offer
pamphlets free of charge, and the books
at cost.

Copyright

Conference-approved literature is copyrighted
with the Copyright Office, Library of Congress,
Washington, D.C., U.S.A. To insure the
continued integrity of A.A. literature, and
to make sure the A.A. recovery programs will
not be distorted or diluted, permission to
reprint must be obtained from A.A.W.S. in
writing.

However, A.A. newsletters, bulletins, or
meeting lists have blanket permission to use
the material, providing proper credit to insure
that the copyrights of A.A. literature are
protected.

The A.A. Preamble is copyrighted by The A.A.
Grapevine, Inc. (not by A.A. World Services).
Beneath it, these words should appear:
Reprinted with permission of the A.A.
Grapevine, Inc. The Steps and Traditions
should be followed by these words: Reprinted
with Permission of A.A. World Services, Inc.

********************************

AAHL Message 4223
"Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

Does anyone have a copy of the article
published in Box 4-5-9 from the mid 1970's
entitled "What is Conference Approved
Literature?"

I believe it was from the August 1976 edition.
I have a copy of it somewhere stored in a
box but can't find it at the moment. It appears
from meetings I have gone to,lately and from
some posts on the Internet, there has to be a
reminder of what exactly conference approval
really means.

Some AA members of today tout loudly and with
venom that conference approval means that ONLY
conference approved literature should be
read by AA members. No mention of so-called
non-approved materials should be made at
meetings and some even mention that they have
seen official correspondence from GSO/AAWS
stating that ONLY conference-approved literature
is allowed at meetings.

Can someone post that article as it is an
official AAWS document defining policy on
the use, reading of and having literature other
than conference-approved at meetings.

Also, does anyone have any documentation from
AAWS or the GSC reversing that position stated
in Box 4-5-9 and thus stating that AA does
oppose non-conference approved literature and
its use by AA members.

0 -1 0 0
4234 Gary Becktell
Re: conference-approved conference-approved 4/12/2007 12:09:00 PM

From Gary Becktell, Jeff Your, James Blair, and Tom White

- - - -

From "Gary Becktell" <gk@kitcarson.net>
(gk at kitcarson.net)

Mitchell,

Below is a little of that article, including
the exact issue Volume & #. This is all I have:

GSO Box 4-5-9 1978
(Volume 23, No 4)

Any literature that pertains to the principles
of AA or is approved by a Group Conscience -
is perfectly acceptable to be read by any
AA member or in an AA meeting.

"WHAT CONFERENCED-APPROVED MEANS"

GSO Box 4-5-9 1978
(Volume 23, No 4)

AA's General Service Office said:

"It does not mean the Conference disapproves
of any other publications. Many local A.A.
central offices publish their own meeting
lists. A.A. as a whole does not oppose these,
any more than A.A. disapproves of the Bible
or any other publications from any source
that A.A.'s find useful.

What any A.A. member reads is no business of
G.S.O., or of the Conference, naturally."

- - - -

From: Jeff Your <jyour@jcu.edu>
(jyour at jcu.edu)

From GSO Box 4-5-9 (Volume 23, No 4)
"Any literature that pertains to the principles
of AA or is approved by a GROUP CONSCIENCE -
is perfectly acceptable to be read by any AA
member or in an AA meeting."

As cited at

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaconferenceapproved.html

- - - -

James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

There have been strong Conference Advisory
Actions on the display of non-conference
approved literature but of course they are
only suggestions :-)

Jim

- - - -

From: Tom White <tomwhite@cableone.net>
(tomwhite at cableone.net)

Mitchell:

I wouldn't go looking for authoritative GSO
"statements" on this subject, since the
literature read at meetings is the business
of the individual group and of no "governing"
body, of which there ain't supposed to be
any in AA. Hallelujah!

Tom W.

0 -1 0 0
4235 Arthur S
RE: Date of White Light experience at Towns Date of White Light experience at Towns 4/13/2007 9:34:00 AM

Bill W's sober date is December 11, 1934.
See "Pass It On" pg 104 for an image of his
discharge slip from Towns Hospital - it shows
an "admitted" date of 12/11/34 and "discharged"
date of 12/18/34.

December 11, 1934 is the date Bill W had
his last drink on the way to, and at,
Towns Hospital.

Bill's profound spiritual experience (as noted
in several sources) occurred after he was
visited by Ebby in Towns Hospital. Ebby's
visit could have occurred anywhere from the
day following Bill's admission to the hospital
up to 2 or 3 days after. I personally lean
toward December 14 as the date of Bill's
experience (although it's a close toss-up
with December 13 as the possible date).
Different written sources give different
inferences of a possible date. Specific dates
in AA history are not the easiest to determine
or reach consensus on (Dr Bob's sober date
being a prime example of that).

Following is (as best as I can reconstruct
it, from a variety of written sources) a
timeline of Bill W receiving a message of
recovery from Ebby T and the beginning of
his own carrying the message to other
alcoholics.

Source references:

AABB (Alcoholics Anonymous, the Big Book),
AACOA (AA Comes of Age),
AGAA (The Akron Genesis of Alcoholics
Anonymous, by Dick B)
BW-RT (Bill W by Robert Thomsen),
BW-FH (Bill W by Francis Hartigan),
BW-40 (Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography),
EBBY (Ebby the Man Who Sponsored Bill W by
Mel B),
GB (Getting Better Inside Alcoholics
Anonymous by Nan Robertson),
GTBT (Grateful to Have Been There by
Nell Wing),
LOH (The Language of the Heart),
LR (Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson),
NG (Not God, by Ernest Kurtz),
NW (New Wine, by Mel B),
PIO (Pass It On),
RAA (The Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous, by
Bill Pittman),
SD (Slaying the Dragon, by William L White),
SM (AA Service Manual and Twelve Concepts
for World Service),
SW (Silkworth - The Little Doctor Who Loved
Drunks, by Dale Mitchell).

Nov (late), Ebby T, while staying at the
Calvary Mission and working with the Oxford
Group, heard about Bill W’s problems with
drinking. He phoned Lois who invited him over
for dinner. (EBBY 66)

Nov (late), Ebby visited Bill W at 182 Clinton
St and shared his recovery experience "one
alcoholic talking to another.” (AACOA vii,
58-59) A few days later, Ebby returned with
Shep C. They both spoke to Bill about the
Oxford Group. Bill did not think too highly
of Shep. Lois recalled that Ebby visited
several times, once even staying for dinner.
(AACOA vii, NG 17-18, 311, BW-FH 57-58,
NW 22-23, PIO 111-116, BW-RT 187-192)

Dec 7, Bill W decided to investigate the
Calvary Mission on 23rd St. He showed up drunk
with a drinking companion found along the way
(Alec the Finn). Bill kept interrupting the
service wanting to speak. On the verge of being
ejected, Ebby came by and fed Bill a plate
of beans. Bill later joined the penitents and
drunkenly “testified” at the meeting. (AACOA
59-60, BW-40 136-137, NG 18-19, BW-FH 60,
NW 23, PIO 116-119, BW-RT 193-196, AGAA 156-
159, EBBY 66-69)

Dec 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to go back to
Towns Hospital and had his last drink (four
bottles of beer purchased on the way). He got
financial help from his mother, Emily, for
the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62, LOH 197, RAA
152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO 119-120, GB 31).

Dec 14 (possibly 13), Ebby visited Bill W at
Towns Hospital and told him about the Oxford
Group principles. After Ebby left, Bill fell
into a deep depression (his “deflation at
depth”) and had a profound spiritual experience
after crying out “If there be a God, will he
show himself.” Bill called Dr Silkworth to ask
if he was going crazy. Dr Silkworth later
assured Bill he was not crazy and told him
to hang on to what he had found. In a lighter
vein, Bill and others would later refer to this
as his “white flash” or “hot flash” experience.
(AABB 13-14, AACOA vii, 13, BW-40 141-148,
NG 19-20, NW 23-24, PIO 120-124, GTBT 111,
LOH 278-279)

Note: and it sometimes raises the hackles of
AA members, Bill W was subjected to something
called the “belladonna cure.” The regimen
primarily involved “purging and puking” aided
by, among other things, castor oil. Belladonna,
a hallucinogen, was used to ease the symptoms
of alcohol withdrawal. (PIO 98-101, LR 85,
BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310, BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174).
What role the belladonna may have played in
Bill's experience is undetermined.

Dec 15 (possibly 14), Ebby (or possibly Rowland
H) brought Bill W a copy of William James'
book "The Varieties of Religious Experience."
Bill was deeply inspired by the book. It
revealed three key points for recovery:
1) calamity or complete defeat in some vital
area of life (hitting bottom), 2) admission
of defeat (surrender) and 3) appeal to a
higher power for help (acceptance). The book
strongly influenced early AAs and is cited in
the Big Book. (AACOA 62-64, LOH 279, EBBY 70,
SI 26, BW-40 150-152, NG 20-24, 312-313,
NW 24-25, PIO 124-125, GTBT 111-112, AABB 28)

Dec 18, Bill W left Towns Hospital and began
working with drunks. He and Lois attended
Oxford Group meetings with Ebby T and Shep C
at Calvary House. The Rev Sam Shoemaker was
the rector at the Calvary Church (the OG’s
US headquarters). The church was on 4th Ave
(now Park Ave) and 21st Street. Calvary Ho