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4775 chesbayman56
Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 1/1/2008 1:25:00 PM


Significant January Dates in A.A. History



Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking.

Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.

Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of

"Alcoholics Anonymous".

Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression.

Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA.

Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan

Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob.

Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety".

Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus,

Ohio Central Group.

Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland.

Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded.

Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan.

Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get

away from the Oxford Group atmosphere".

Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years

sober.

Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics

Anonymous, died.

Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group.

Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School,

Akron, Ohio.

Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years

dies.

Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician

Heal Thyself" died.

Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC.

Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri.

Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto.

Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in

Oct 24 1943.

Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in

his sleep.

Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in

Pennington, New Jersey.

Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.

Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church

in Brookyn Heights.

Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis

Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL.

Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley.

Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1.

Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus

Contra Spiritum".

End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for

comment, evaluation and sale.


0 -1 0 0
4776 Glenn Chesnut
Annette Smith, Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous Annette Smith, Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous 1/2/2008 7:02:00 PM


New book just out:



Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., "The Social World

of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works,"

December 2007, ISBN 978-0-595-47692-3,

xx + 150 pp.



http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html



With an introduction by Linda Farris Kurtz,

DPA, Professor Emeritus, Eastern Michigan

University School of Social Work, author of

"Self-Help and Support Groups: A Handbook

for Practitioners."



http://hindsfoot.org/kas2.html



In the Preface to her book, Annette Smith

describes how she became involved in this

research:



Although I am not myself a member of A.A., I

have been intimately involved with the program

and its membership for many years. In 1969,

while I was working as a clinical social

worker on the alcoholism treatment unit at a

state mental hospital in California, the local

A.A. Hospital and Institutions Committee asked

to hold a meeting at the hospital. However,

the administration said there were no rooms

available. So, I arranged for the patients to

be bussed to my house every Thursday night,

where the meetings were held in my living room.

This went on for almost a year until the

hospital finally made a room available. During

this initial exposure to A.A., I developed

a close association with the fellowship, and

through the years I have continued to attend

open meetings and participate in many informal

A.A. social activities.



In 1982, I returned to graduate school at the

University of California, San Diego, to pursue

my Ph.D. in sociology. As I developed my socio-

logical interests, it seemed almost a natural

progression in my involvement with A.A. to be

able to look at it from the new perspective of

scholarly research. The primary content of

this book, including the data and references,

was originally part of the dissertation

submitted in 1991 in partial fulfillment of

my Ph.D. in Sociology.



The theoretical and methodological approaches

are those of symbolic interaction and quali-

tative field study. The focus is on interactive

processes, which are not captured by survey

research. Therefore, research efforts require

the kind of intimate familiarity that can only

be achieved through participant observation

and other qualitative methods. The supportive

data has been drawn primarily from participant

observation over a twenty-three-year period

in which I was associated with A.A. and from

in-depth interviews with fifty-one members

conducted in the course of the dissertation

and previous research (Smith, 1986). Examples

and citations presented included statements

heard during several hundred open A.A. meetings

in several geographic areas of the U.S. and

abroad, and both professional and personal

conversations with A.A. members. Additional

material and interpretive insights have been

drawn from the A.A. literature and referenced

secondary sources. Interview subjects were

initially recruited by placing notices on

bulletin boards at four local A.A. social clubs

and in chapter newsletters of the National

Council on Alcoholism and the Employee Assist-

ance Professionals Association. Interviews were

limited to those with at least two years of

continuous sobriety in an effort to provide

some protection against harmful emotional

effects to which those in early sobriety are

vulnerable. As patterns of experiences began

to emerge, additional subjects were sought

through snowball sampling that focused on the

need for stories reflecting these patterns.



The total interview sample consisted of

twenty-eight men and twenty-three women, with

ages ranging from nineteen to seventy. Length

of sobriety ranged from two to over twenty

years. All interviewees could be categorized

as low middle to middle class, with occupa-

tions ranging from skilled labor to technical

and professional. Three women and two men were

unemployed at the time of the interview. Only

one of the women categorized herself as a

homemaker, and none of the subjects were

retired. Ethnically, most were Caucasian,

although one black male, one Native American

male, and one Hispanic female were also in

the sample. These variations did not appear

to affect the general pattern of experiences

reflected for those constructs under study.



A topic guide was used for interviews that

established demographic information on age

and other categories, including date of A.A.

membership and date of current continuous

sobriety. Questions addressed included the

individual's perception of himself or herself

in terms of interpersonal relationships and

preferred ways of associating with others,

how he or she first came to A.A., what happened

there, feelings about what happened and ways

in which the person has participated in A.A.

since. The interviewees were also asked how

and when they accepted themselves as alcoholic,

and what they saw as most important in A.A.

recovery. As the various chapters of this book

were completed, they were read by selected A.A.

members for accuracy of organizational informa-

tion and validity of suggested patterns and

constructs. In the presentation of data, great

care has been taken to protect the anonymity

and confidentiality of all living A.A. members.



Subsequently, a new edition of the Big Book

of Alcoholics Anonymous was issued (AAWS, 2001),

and several noteworthy works have been added

to the qualitative research literature. A

paper on the social construction of group

dependency based on a chapter of the disserta-

tion was published (Smith, 1993). Makela,

Arminen, Bloomfield, et al. (1996) compared

the development of A.A. as a social movement

in eight societies; Wilcox (1998), Jensen

(1999) and Pollner and Stein (2001) provided

studies of aspects of A.A. culture; and

O'Halloran (2003) examined differences between

ethnographic and ethnomethodological (conversa-

tion analysis) methods in studying Alcoholics

Anonymous. Other relevant publications on

the subject include L. Kurtz's (1997) handbook

for practitioners on self-help and support

groups, which references some of the material

included in the dissertation, and Bishop and

Pittman's (1994) second volume of their A.A.

bibliography.


0 -1 0 0
4777 Mike Terhune
Bob P. (GSO Manager 1974-84) died Jan. 1st Bob P. (GSO Manager 1974-84) died Jan. 1st 1/1/2008 8:36:00 PM


Bob P. -- A Sober Life Well Lived



General Manager of the General Service Office

from 1974 to 1984



At 2:14 MST this morning, January 1, 2008,

Bob Pearson departed this life at the age of

90, sober for the final 46-1/2 years. Born

February 19, 1917, Bob leaves behind a loving

wife of 63 years and a family of children,

grandchildren and great-grandchildren, along

with a countless host of alcoholics ever

indebted to his life of love and service.



- - - -



At the suggestion of Carter E., I wanted to

share my tiny bit of AA history with this group.

The following is a tribute to a dear friend

that I posted to the NRV AA listserver:



For several hours yesterday afternoon, I once

again found myself blessed by sobriety and the

fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Along

with a dozen AA's and several other friends,

I was invited by the family of Robert G.

Pearson to attend the celebration of a life

well lived.



Crowded into a small bedroom at his home in

Bellevue, Idaho, we were given the opportunity

to sit with Bob and express our love, sadness

and gratitude in a way rarely seen outside of

our program and, certainly, in a manner never

before experienced by this servant.



I first met Bob P. in May 2004 at a meeting

in a room typical of many AA meetings, a tiny

confine in the basement of a church hall in

Hailey, Idaho. Outwardly, this man appeared

no different from any other drunk I've met in

many other meetings over the past quarter

century, though a bit older than most. He

began his share with "My name's Bob and I'm

a happy alcoholic," as he would each and

every time he spoke in AA. His precise words

of that day are lost with the passing of time

but I'm certain his theme was as it always

was: the joys of a sober life and the fact

that AA does not teach us how to stop drinking,

but how to live life without drinking.



At the end of the meeting, Bob asked if anyone

in the room would be attending the upcoming

Spring Assembly in Pocatello. As newly

appointed GSR for my group, I had been looking

for someone to share the three-hour ride.

I introduced myself to him and was immediately

invited to drive him and his wife, Betsy, to

the conference. Along the way, I learned

much about the amazing life of this wonderful

couple.



Previously of Greenwich, CT, Bob had worked

for the Grapevine, later becoming its editor.

It was during this time that he met Bill W.

Bob often related the tale of their first

meeting, Bob gushing all over Bill and Bill

replying with the simple phrase "Pass it on."

From 1974 to 1984, Bob served as General Manager

of the G.S.O. and was its Senior Adviser from

1985 until his retirement in 1987. As Bob

napped along the way, Betsy regaled me with

stories of the times they had shared with

Bill and Lois.



By the end of the trip we had become fast

friends. I've since often been invited to

house sit for the couple and entrusted with

the care of their pets during their frequent

travels about the country. I have shared many

a Tuesday afternoon lunch with them after

the noon meeting of the Wood River "To Handle

Sobriety Group," Bob's home group. Bob and

Bets, along with their sons (Brad and Ridley)

and daughter (Wendy) have become, in their

words, a surrogate family for me here in Idaho.



Though I never heard Bob tell his entire story

at an AA meeting, I was privileged to again

drive him to Pocatello where he was to be the

featured speaker for a group anniversary.

After his introduction, he asked those in

attendance if we would mind if he did not

share his E, S & H, rather telling us stories

of his time in New York, of (previously, to me)

nameless characters from the Big Book and a

bit of the history of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Of course, no one minded and Bob captured this

group of drunks for more than an hour with

a chronicle of AA brought to life.



Sadly, we have lost a connection to our legacy.

At 2:14 MST this morning, Bob Pearson departed

this life at the age of 90, sober for the

final 46-1/2 years. Born February 19, 1917,

Bob leaves behind a loving wife of 63 years,

a family of children, grandchildren and great-

grandchildren, along with a countless host

of alcoholics ever indebted to his life of

love and service.



Goodbye, Cap'n.. you will be missed



Mike Terhune


0 -1 0 0
4778 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Don Black: baseball players and anonymity issues Don Black: baseball players and anonymity issues 1/2/2008 3:02:00 PM


I have some information on Don Black and much

more on Hemsley. I have nothing to indicate

they knew each other. I have a pamphlet with

Black's picture and short story published by

the World League Against Alcoholism of

Westerville, Ohio reproduced by permission

from article by Kenneth F. Weaver in THE

ALLIED YOUTH and an oversized baseball card

by Capital Publishing Company with stats.



For information on his sudden collapse on

the field and later death see NOW PITCHING

Bob Feller with Bill Gilbert on pages 142,

155, 157, 161-162.


0 -1 0 0
4779 corafinch
Re: Amelia Reynolds, Oxford Group author Amelia Reynolds, Oxford Group author 12/30/2007 3:42:00 PM


"diazeztone" <eztone@...> wrote:

>

> Information wanted about Amelia S. Reynolds,

> an Oxford Group author. She wrote:

>

> Amelia S. Reynolds, "New Lives for Old" (New

> York: Fleming H. Revell, 1929). 96 pages

>



Could she be the same person as Mrs. Howard

Reynolds of Winnipeg, Manitoba? Mrs. Reynolds

was quoted in a 1936 Time article about the

Stockbridge Oxford Group event: "Our budget

is God-controlled. There is a real thrill

and purpose in teas and dinner parties."



Howard Reynolds later directed many of the

MRA dramatic productions, according to Garth

Lean's book about Buchman.


0 -1 0 0
4780 pmds@aol.com
Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? 12/28/2007 2:09:00 PM


I heard him tell that story many times ...

he described it as a piece of paper on which

was written something like "Considerations for

the man who is thinking about stopping drinking."



The person who gave it to him, whose name I've

forgotten, was a fraternity brother of Earle's

and lived in Marin County quite near where

Earle lived.



Earle wrote a book with the same title as his

story in the Big Book, and the information

may be in there.



- - - -



Original message 4774 from Terry W

<twalton@3gcinc.com> (twalton at 3gcinc.com)



What was the title of the AA pamphlet

mentioned in the Big Book story "Physician,

Heal Thyself" ???



In the personal story of Earle Marsh he

mentions a pamphlet given to him by a friend.

Does anyone know who the friend was, or the

title of the pamphlet described below? I am

assuming it was an AA pamphlet. Is it still

in circulation?



BB story page 346 3rd ed.



On the last day I was drinking I went up to

see a friend who had had a good deal of trouble

with alcohol, and whose wife had left him a

number of times. He had come back, however,

and he was on this program. In my stupid way

I went up to see him with the idea in the

back of my mind that I would investigate

Alcoholics Anonymous from a medical stand-

point. Deep in my heart was the feeling that

maybe I could get some help here.



This friend gave me a pamphlet, and I took

it home and had my wife read it to me. There

were two sentences in it that struck me.



One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr

because you stopped drinking," and this hit

me between the eyes.



The second one said, "Don't feel that you

stop drinking for anyone other than yourself,"

and this hit me between the eyes.



Thank you,

Terry W


0 -1 0 0
4781 Glenn Chesnut
Matt Talbot research Matt Talbot research 12/31/2007 3:46:00 PM


For those of you who are interested in the

figure of Matt Talbot, a good scholar in A.A.

history named John Blair has just started

a website which brings together a enormous

amount of material on him:

______________________________



Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center



http://venerablematttalbotresourcecenter.blogspot.com/



"The Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center

blogspot exists to compile writings about the

life, times, and alcoholism recovery of Matt

Talbot (1856-1925) from Dublin, Ireland.

Disclaimer: The placing of information on

this blogspot from external linked sources

does not necessarily imply agreement with

that information. This center is independent

of any other group or organization."

______________________________



Among early AA authors, Father Ralph Pfau

(the Father John Doe of the Golden Books)

was a strong supporter of Matt Talbot as an

example of how a spiritual triumph over

alcoholism could be accomplished.



William D. Silkworth, M.D. (1873-1951) also

encouraged the formation of Matt Talbot

groups in Catholic parish churches in a

talk he gave which was published in the

National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism's

Blue Book: "The Prevention of Alcoholism:

A Challenge to the Catholic Clergy." This

article is available online at:



http://silkworth.net/silkworth/prevention.html







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4782 TBaerMojo@aol.com
Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? 1/3/2008 9:09:00 AM


If you google for the words "15 points for an

alcoholic to consider" you will find a pdf of

a brochure by that name printed by Alcoholics

Anonymous - UK which has the text that you are

seeking.



http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/newcomer/pack/15_Points.pdf



I have a photocopy of a very old version of

the same information printed by Street Printing

Company in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1940s.

It was locally produced but I have not yet

found a surviving original printed copy.



Tim B.



- - - -



Terry W. was looking for the source of

these two phrases:



One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr

because you stopped drinking," and this hit

me between the eyes.



The second one said, "Don't feel that you

stop drinking for anyone other than your-

self," and this hit me between the eyes.


0 -1 0 0
4783 Glenn Chesnut
Little Red Book: first 7 editions Little Red Book: first 7 editions 1/4/2008 3:35:00 PM


A while back, Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona,

told me that there were two print runs of

The Little Red Book made in 1949. The only

difference between the two 1949 print runs

was that the first printing had a minor

typesetting error (a segment of text inserted

upside down) and was recalled as soon as this

was discovered, so that not many copies of

the first printing actually got out.



- - - -



Mark F. just sent me an email in which he said:



To Whom it May concern: I received a Little

Red Book from my sponsor after he passed away,

the cool thing is it is a 1949 First Printing.

To verify the two top sentences on pg 62 are

upside down. So I can see why they decided

to produce a second printing that year.

Thanks for the information.



- - - -



So based on what Mark has now verified about

the 1949 printing, together with the inform-

ation we already had posted from Jack H.

(Scottsdale, Arizona) and Tommy H. (Baton

Rouge, Louisiana), we can lay out a fully

verified time line and description for all of

the early printings of The Little Red Book.



1st edition August 1946



2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)



3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)



4th edition 1948



5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the

first print run, the two top sentences on

pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected

in the second print run.



6th edition 1950



7th edition 1951 (and so on)



- - - -



Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book

during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in

fact kept on making changes in the book all

the way to the end of his life in 1971.



We should remember that numerous changes were

also made in The Little Red Book after Ed

Webster's death on June 3, 1971, by editors

at the Hazelden Foundation who believed that

they "could write better" about alcoholism

than Ed Webster. But they did not make changes

that fundamentally changed any of the basic

material, so the version of The Little Red

Book currently available from Hazelden is

still usable for AA beginners classes.



Use of The Little Red Book was approved by

the New York AA office at a very early date,

and it is perfectly acceptable for reading

in AA meetings.



Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should

be taken as a kind of benchmark version for

many purposes, since this was the last edition

where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.

I can see a kind of sense in what he said.



- - - -



Message 4021 from Glenn Chesnut

glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4021

laid out most of this.



See also http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html



And thanks again to Mark F. for writing me

and telling me what he had found.


0 -1 0 0
4784 Mike
Bob P.''s obituary Bob P.''s obituary 1/4/2008 11:05:00 AM


From today's Idaho Mountain Express:



Robert Greenlees Pearson



With his wife, Betsy, children, Brad, Wendy

and Ridley, their spouses and his grandchil-

dren by his side, Bob Pearson died peacefully

of "old age" in his home in Bellevue, Idaho,

on Jan. 1, 2008.



Born the only child of somewhat nomadic parents,

Ridley Stilson and Agnes Greenlees Pearson,

on Feb. 19, 1917, Bob was not formally edu-

cated until the third grade. He took to

academics easily, skipping grades and gradu-

ating from Kansas University at 18, where he

served as editor of both the university's

humor magazine and yearbook. A skilled writer,

Bob was the focus of a national scandal when

a Scribner's Magazine article, "Ghost Behind

the Grade," published in 1938, revealed that

e had paid his way through college by ghost-

writing hundreds of grade-specific papers for

fellow students in dozens of classes and

seven universities. His writing led him to

New York City where he went to work for the

Shell Oil Co. in public relations, and later

met his wife of 63 years, Betsy Dodge.



With the advent of World War II, Bob enlisted

as an officer in the U.S. Navy, and was

assigned aboard a destroyer escort as the

ship's gunnery officer. He participated in

numerous missions in convoys across the

Atlantic. Bob wrote speeches for the admiral

of the Navy, as well as for two presidents,

Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman. His

destroyer escort was part of the historic

capture of a German U-boat, north of the

Azores. It was the first submarine ever

boarded and taken prior to the destruction

of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio

codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later

immortalized in the motion picture "U-571."

In 1945, he was honorably discharged,

holding the rank of lieutenant commander.



Following the war, Bob and Betsy eventually

settled in Riverside, Connecticut, where Bob

was an avid runner and skier and served as

senior deacon in the First Congregational

Church of Greenwich. In his 38 years with

Shell Oil, Bob's most notable accomplishments

involved that company's sponsoring of major

sports. Working with the NBC television

network, Bob was instrumental in popularizing

golf by bringing the sport to live television

for the first time in "Shell's Wonderful World

of Golf." He also participated in Shell's

sponsorship of Craig Breedlove's pursuit of

the world land speed record in a jet-propelled

car, on the Bonneville Salt Flats in the

mid-1960s.



But it was Bob's personal crisis that would

prove to define his life. Beginning with his

service in the Navy, Bob had grown addicted

to alcohol and, some 20 years later, nearly

died of alcoholism. He was encouraged by

physicians to join a fledgling group called

Alcoholics Anonymous, in Greenwich, Connect-

icut, in 1961. Bob P., as he was known in

that organization, found sobriety and dedi-

cated himself to AA service, even working on

occasion with its co-founder, Bill W. He

served on local and national boards of AA, and

eventually was appointed general manager of

AA's World Service Organization, where, for

10 years, 1974-1984, he oversaw the enormous

international growth and spread of AA worldwide.

The organization played an influential role in

the establishment of over a hundred unrelated,

so-called 12-step programs, which have resulted

in millions' conquering various addictions.

Through his service to AA, Bob P., with wife

Betsy (a longtime member of Al-Anon), traveled

the world, speaking to both small AA groups as

well as at its international conventions of

50,000 or more attendees. His "AA story" was

published as the closing story in "Alcoholics

Anonymous," AA's "Big Book," which remains one

of the most widely published and perennially

best-selling books in the world.



Bob and Betsy moved part-time to Bellevue,

Idaho, in 1980, soon making it their permanent

home. Here, Bob P. continued to serve AA, both

as a speaker and contributor to its national

archives. Bob's life was defined by his

dedicated service to Alcoholics Anonymous, an

organization whose members depend on one

another for their survival. His family wishes

to extend their thanks to the hundreds of local

AA members, and thousands of national members,

who supported Bob's sobriety, gave him a

charmed life, and who continue the great

traditions of this wonderful and necessary

organization.



A memorial celebrating Bob P.'s service in

Alcoholics Anonymous will be held Friday,

Jan. 11, (check local flyers) in Sun Valley,

Idaho; a public memorial for friends and

family will take place at the Church of the

Big Wood, Ketchum, Idaho, at 4 p.m., Saturday,

Jan. 12. Donations in Bob's name will be

gratefully accepted by the Sun Club, Ketchum,

Idaho.



(The entire Pearson family wishes to extend

their gratitude to Drs. Hall and Fairman,

Hospice and Palliative Care of the Wood River

Valley, and especially Johnna Pletcher and

Gloria Clark for their loving in-home care

and assistance.)


0 -1 0 0
4785 Tom Hickcox
Re: Little Red Book: first 7 editions Little Red Book: first 7 editions 1/4/2008 5:04:00 PM


At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote:

>

>1st edition August 1946

>

>2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)

>

>3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)

>

>4th edition 1948

>

>5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the

>first print run, the two top sentences on

>pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected

>in the second print run.

>

>6th edition 1950

>

>7th edition 1951 (and so on)



A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note

that these early Little Red Books are usually

referred to by printing number, not edition.

That said, these numbers were not assigned

until the 11th printing in 1954.



I believe the more proper descriptive word

would be edition as you use it as changes were

made for the different printings. Use of the

word printing implies that the content is the

same, but we know that to be different in this

case.



For those interested, the copyrights are as

follows:



Printings 1-5 1946

6 1946-1950

7 1950

8-9 1951

11-14 1951

15-25 1957



There are no copies of the 10th printing that

I am aware of and I don't know the story.

Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.



I would also like to point out that this

information is for the Coll-Webb editions of

the Little Red Book and they are in a larger

format book than the Hazelden printings which

started some time in the 1960s. There are at

my count seven different types published by

Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957

Coll-Webb copyright.



Glenn C. went on to say:



>Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book

>during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in

>fact kept on making changes in the book all

>the way to the end of his life in 1971.

>

>Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should

>be taken as a kind of benchmark version for

>many purposes, since this was the last edition

>where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.

>I can see a kind of sense in what he said.

>



I think Jack is correct. It would be inter-

esting to tabulate the changes from the first

printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4786 Glenn Chesnut
AA Recovery Outcome Rates AA Recovery Outcome Rates 1/6/2008 8:03:00 PM


Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome

Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation



January 1, 2008



By Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas),

Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York),

and Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)



See http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html



This article cannot be sent out in email

format, because of all its charts, graphs,

notes and so on.



It can be read as an Adobe PDF file:

http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf



Or as an MS Word DOC file:

http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc



The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for

1977 through 1989 show that, of those people

who are in their first month of attending A.A.

meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A.

meetings at the end of that year.



Of those who are in their fourth month of

attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who

have completed their initial ninety days,

and have thereby demonstrated a certain

willingness to really try the program),

56% will still be attending A.A. meetings

at the end of that year.


0 -1 0 0
4787 Jim S.
Bill W. and drugs Bill W. and drugs 1/7/2008 1:03:00 PM


Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took

"a laundry list" of drugs during his sober

years, yet I can't seem to get any details,

except for the false statement that he

"dropped acid for five years." Can anyone

point me to this "laundry list" he used?



Jim S.



- - - -



Jim,



SEDATIVES:



There are numerous references to Bill W. (and

many other early AA people, like Father John

Doe) taking "sedatives," which seems to have

meant mostly barbiturates and powerful bromide

compounds. These compounds were what drug

addicts call "downers," but barbiturates were

not designated as controlled substances in the

United States until 1970. Bromides just about

totally disappeared from the market when

better sedatives were developed.



LSD:



On LSD, go to our message board at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

and do a search for "LSD." You will find over

40 past messages on this topic. The basic

account of how Bill W. experimented with LSD

is found in Ernie Kurtz, "Drugs and the

Spiritual: Bill W. Takes LSD" in Ernie's book,

"The Collected Ernie Kurtz," p. 39.



At the time Bill W. was experimenting with

it, it had only recently been developed.

It was not yet illegal, nor had its

potential for misuse and harm been dis-

covered yet.



MARIJUANA:



In the 1920s and 30s, musicians like Louis

Armstrong and Bing Crosby were using marijuana

(just as later on, Bob Dylan, John Lennon,

Paul McCartney, and John Denver used it).



In 1936, the movie "Reefer Madness" (originally

financed by a church group) portrayed high

school students being lured into marijuana

usage leading to a hit and run accident,

manslaughter, suicide, rape, and the descent

into madness:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness



Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration

criminalized marijuana in the United

States in 1937.



I have never found any reference however

to early AA members being involved

specifically with marijuana, or making

any specific mention of it, so I do not

know whether it was an issue to them or

not.



OTHER DRUGS:



As far as I can tell, when early AA people

referred to "drug addicts," they seem to

have been referring mostly to opium smokers

and people who injected heroin or snorted

cocaine. As the old jazz lyrics went,

"Honey, take a whiff on me":



http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWHIFFME.html

http://www.cocaine.org/cocaine-habit.html

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-songs-with-chords/Take%20A%20Whiff%20On%2\

0Me.htm




Early AA people were a different social

class (doctors, lawyers, stock brokers,

business people, newspaper people, and

so on) from the jazz musicians and people

from the urban slums who were involved

in drugs of that sort back in the 1930s

and 40s.



Most Americans were not exposed to these

drugs in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. In fact,

it was not until the latter 1960s and early

70s that the average American came into any

contact with drugs of this sort.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
4788 handlebarick
Re: Little Red Book: first 7 editions Little Red Book: first 7 editions 1/5/2008 6:06:00 PM


Greetings all; I have:

1. A Large Second Printing January 1947 Copyright 1946 By Coll-Webb

Company International Copyright 1946. Has no outside writing on

cover. This one on inside page one (counting back from first page

with a number being # NINE)is printed only the words The Twelve

Steps. On page three printed is: An Interpretation of The Twelve

Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program, Coll-Webb Co., Publishers

P.O. Box 564 Minneapolis, Minnesota MCMXLVII

Copyright info is on page four.



2.A Large Eighteenth Printing 1964 and on (unnumbered)page one only

states: The Little Red Book On page (unnumbered)three printing is:

The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps

of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program 1964 The Little Red Book Box

564, Main P.O. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55440 United States of America.

Page four has Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-

Webb Company. Also on this page is a lists of printings that reads:

1st printing 1946

2nd printing 1947

3rd printing 1947

4th printing 1948

5th printing 1949

6th printing 1950

7th printing 1951

8th printing 1952

9th printing 1953

10TH PRINTING 1954*

11th printing 1955

12th printing 1957

13th printing 1959

14th printing 1960

15th printing 1961

16th printing 1962

17th printing 1963

18th printing 1964

* states 10th printing

Also printed on this page is: $2.50 U.S.A. $2.75 Outside Territorial

U.S.A. Printed and Manufactured in the United States of America.



3. A (Still) LARGE Twenty-fourth printing 1970. Page one (unnumbered)

prints: The Little Red Book. Page three states The Little Red Book An

Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps Of The Alcoholics

Anonymous Program 1970 Hazelden Center City, Minnesota 55012. Page

four states: Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb

Company. Also on this page:

Twenty Printings from 1946-1966

21st printing 1967

22nd printing 1968

23rd printing 1969

24th printing 1970



4. A Large 1996 50th Anniversary by Hazelton/Pittman



5. A Small edition. Page one (unnumbered) reads: THe Little Red Book.

Page three states: The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of

The Twelve Steps of The Alcoholics Anonymous Program Hazelden Center

City, MN, 55012 Page four is limited to Copyright 1957 International

Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb Company. (No printing Date or number)

Also page four has ISBN 0-89486-004-6 Printed and Manufactured in the

United States of America.



6. A Small Revised Edition Inside unnumbered page three reads: The

Little Red Book. Inside unnumbered page five states: The Little Red

Book Hazelden (only) Inside unnumbered page six: First published

1957 Revised Edition, Copyright 1986 Hazelden Foundation. Printed in

the United States of America. Also has Editor's note: proclaiming

it's disclaimer. Author's Note is numbered 1.



All these books have statements of Rights Reserved on page four.



Rick S. Wapakoneta, OH





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@...>

wrote:

>

> At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote:

> >

> >1st edition August 1946

> >

> >2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)

> >

> >3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)

> >

> >4th edition 1948

> >

> >5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the

> >first print run, the two top sentences on

> >pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected

> >in the second print run.

> >

> >6th edition 1950

> >

> >7th edition 1951 (and so on)

>

> A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note

> that these early Little Red Books are usually

> referred to by printing number, not edition.

> That said, these numbers were not assigned

> until the 11th printing in 1954.

>

> I believe the more proper descriptive word

> would be edition as you use it as changes were

> made for the different printings. Use of the

> word printing implies that the content is the

> same, but we know that to be different in this

> case.

>

> For those interested, the copyrights are as

> follows:

>

> Printings 1-5 1946

> 6 1946-1950

> 7 1950

> 8-9 1951

> 11-14 1951

> 15-25 1957

>

> There are no copies of the 10th printing that

> I am aware of and I don't know the story.

> Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.

>

> I would also like to point out that this

> information is for the Coll-Webb editions of

> the Little Red Book and they are in a larger

> format book than the Hazelden printings which

> started some time in the 1960s. There are at

> my count seven different types published by

> Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957

> Coll-Webb copyright.

>

> Glenn C. went on to say:

>

> >Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book

> >during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in

> >fact kept on making changes in the book all

> >the way to the end of his life in 1971.

> >

> >Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should

> >be taken as a kind of benchmark version for

> >many purposes, since this was the last edition

> >where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.

> >I can see a kind of sense in what he said.

> >

>

> I think Jack is correct. It would be inter-

> esting to tabulate the changes from the first

> printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949.

>

> Tommy H in Baton Rouge

>


0 -1 0 0
4789 Tom Hickcox
Re: Bob P.''s obituary Bob P.''s obituary 1/5/2008 4:13:00 PM


At 10:05 1/4/2008 , Mike wrote:



>His

>destroyer escort was part of the historic

>capture of a German U-boat, north of the

>Azores. It was the first submarine ever

>boarded and taken prior to the destruction

>of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio

>codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later

>immortalized in the motion picture "U-571."



I mean no disrespect to the memory of Bob P

but this statement is incorrect.



Since it has nothing to do with A.A. history,

those interested may contact me off-list for

the details.



Tommy H


0 -1 0 0
4790 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Bill W. and drugs Bill W. and drugs 1/7/2008 2:28:00 PM


A doctor came with a heavy sedative. Next day

found me drinking both gin and sedative without

the usual penalty.



http://www.aabibliography.com/aapioneers/bills_story.htm


0 -1 0 0
4791 Corky
Re: Bill W. and drugs Bill W. and drugs 1/7/2008 10:04:00 PM


Jim S.



Chapter 23 in "Pass It On" (pp. 368-377) refers

to Bill's experiment with LSD.



Corky F.



- - - -



This reference also sent in by Jim L.

Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)



- - - -



Original Message from: Jim S.

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:03 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W. and drugs



Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took

"a laundry list" of drugs during his sober

years, yet I can't seem to get any details,

except for the false statement that he

"dropped acid for five years." Can anyone

point me to this "laundry list" he used?



Jim S.


0 -1 0 0
4792 schaberg43
Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark 1/12/2008 11:46:00 AM


Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at

182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and

that, during that year, he dictated chapters

of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark,

New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at

17 Williams Street.



Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge,

did he have a friend with a car), so how did

he get from the borough east of Manhattan to

Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity?



I have asked older New York friends and they

have not been able to recall what forms of

public transportation might have been in

place at that time for such an extensive

trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles

-- 10 of those in New Jersey).



AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill

might have accomplished this, can you estimate

the time it might have taken and how much it

might have cost?



Best,



Old Bill


0 -1 0 0
4793 chief_roger
History of the term Conference Approved History of the term Conference Approved 1/12/2008 10:22:00 AM


In diner discussion recently following a

meeting the question was raised, when did we

begin to use the term conference approved AA

literature to separate it as different from

central office publications and other material

related to alcoholism or recovery?



I searched the many postings on conference

approved, have the Box 459 article explaining

what is meant and not meant and discovered

that the very first GSC Literature Committee

Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years,

A.A. textbook literature should have Conference

approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the

vote on this subject, it was pointed out that

the adoption of the suggestion should not

preclude the continued issuance of various

printed documents by non-Foundation sources.

No desire to review, edit or censor non-

Foundation material is implied. The objective

is to provide, in the future, a means of

distinguishing Foundation literature from

that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests."



This seems the beginning of AA practice in

separating literature.



Anyone know how the term "conference approved"

evolved into the AA lexicon?



Roger W.


0 -1 0 0
4794 Glenn Chesnut
AA success rate: revised/updated report AA success rate: revised/updated report 1/14/2008 9:07:00 PM


During the past week, members of the group

have written in about the article "Alcoholics

Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates:

Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation,"

with some corrections and also some sugges-

tions for a slight revision here and there.



The original version (see Message 4786) was

put on line on January 6, 2008.



The revised/updated report has now been placed

on line as of this evening (January 14, 2008).



It can be read as an Adobe PDF file:

http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf



Or as an MS Word DOC file:

http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc



Among other observations, this article notes

how the A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys

show that, of those people who are in their

first month of attending A.A. meetings,

26% will still be attending A.A. meetings

at the end of that year.



And of those who are in their fourth month

of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who

have completed their initial ninety days,

and have thereby demonstrated a certain

willingness to really try the program),

56% will still be attending A.A. meetings

at the end of that year.


0 -1 0 0
4795 Tom White
Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark 1/12/2008 6:53:00 PM


Dear Old Bill:



I really should not be writing this "answer,"

but I can't resist a little nostalgic ponti-

ficating. Remember, this was in the LATE

THIRTIES, a period before every man Jack and

his son Joe had a car, maybe two or three,

and the streets were manageable in a way

people can hardly imagine today. But that

is not really important in this connection.



What is important is that the city of New

York, all five boroughs, had a smashingly

great, world-class, transport system and,

as a late as my time (1950s), the unit cost

for some incredibly long rides was a nickel,

five cents, really. It may have been that

Bill would have had to add a few cents for

the jog into New Jersey, but I don't know.

Never went there much myself except by ferry

to Hoboken (5 cents) to have some early a.m.

beers, because they opened early or never

shut, I forget which.



Mind you the whole thing from Brooklyn to

Jersey would have taken but minutes. Some

old-timer may know just how many. 13 miles

is a hop skip and a jump. It was then, and

should be now, but we have forgotten how it

to do it. Get your car out and expect it take

two hours, maybe more. Progress: the deepest

illusion of Americans.



Tom W. Odessa, TX



- - - -



From: "tommy" <fulmertr@etown.edu>

(fulmertr at etown.edu)



The DeCamp bus line started in 1870 and is

still running today from New York to New Jersey.



web site <http://www.decamp.com/about.htm>



Hope this helps, Tommy



- - - -



From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net>

(snowlily at megalink.net)



Bus: Brooklyn Bridge to Canal St., thru

Holland Tunnel to Jersey City, north two miles

or so to Newark. Probably 10 cents each way.



- - -



From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)



I've asked myself the same question, having

crossed from Manhattan to New Jersey hundreds

of times, both drunk and sober. My speculation

is that Hank Parkhurst drove Bill to New

Jersey regularly, but not daily.



Bill took the subway from Brooklyn Heights

to Lower Manhattan. Hank lived in Montclair,

a nice suburb of Newark. Hank would have

likely driven to Lower Manhattan, picked up

Bill, and gone either to Newark or Towns

Hospital on Central Park West. The two of

them were visiting Towns weekly, trying to

save drunks.



There were no PATH trains from New Jersey

to the World Trade Center at that time. Bill

could have taken a bus from Lower Manhattan

through the Holland Tunnel to Newark, but

the trip from Brooklyn to Newark would have

taken a half day.



There's always been the Main Line of the

Pennsylvania Railroad from Pennsylvania

Station to downtown Newark, but that would

have involved numerous subway transfers.



I suspect that Bill only went to the Newark

office once or twice a week, and tried to

dovetail those visits with 12th Step work

with Hank.



Bill was undoubtedly eager to move the

office to Lower Manhattan, the location of

his past glories.



*****************************



Original message 4792 from

<schaberg@aol.com> (schaberg at aol.com)



> Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at

> 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and

> that, during that year, he dictated chapters

> of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark,

> New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at

> 17 Williams Street.

>

> Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge,

> did he have a friend with a car), so how did

> he get from the borough east of Manhattan to

> Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity?

>

> I have asked older New York friends and they

> have not been able to recall what forms of

> public transportation might have been in

> place at that time for such an extensive

> trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles

> -- 10 of those in New Jersey).

>

> AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill

> might have accomplished this, can you estimate

> the time it might have taken and how much it

> might have cost?

>

> Best,

>

> Old Bill


0 -1 0 0
4796 Wesley Brauer
AA success rate: 92% and 85% in Tennessee AA success rate: 92% and 85% in Tennessee 1/15/2008 1:40:00 PM


My name is Wes, I reside in New York.



But while living in Tennessee, a friend of

mine conducted a survey of sober members in

Area 64. His name is Scott L.



He found that members that do service work

have a recovery rate of 92% if you commit to

2 hours per month of a service commitment in

the area, district or intergroup level.



He also found that if you did a minimal 4 hrs

per month at the home group level there was

an 85% recovery rate!



Wes Brauer


0 -1 0 0
4797 DudleyDobinson@aol.com
Re: Little Red Book: the earliest printings Little Red Book: the earliest printings 1/13/2008 1:26:00 PM


Thanks Rick,



I can complete a couple of gaps in your list.



The 19th & 20th printings were made in 1965

& 1966.



Also there were two printings in 1970:

the 24th & 25th.



Worth noting that the text in the 50th

anniversary edition in 1996 is actually from

the 1949 5th printing.



[ photo at http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html ]



I have all these books with the exception

of the 10th, which I have been looking for

for some seven years. Also I do not have

the copy of the fifth printing run with an

error on page 62, which I was only recently

made aware of through being a member of

this group.



In fellowship - Dudley


0 -1 0 0
4798 Arthur S
RE: History of the term Conference Approved History of the term Conference Approved 1/14/2008 5:39:00 PM


Hi Roger



I love getting into these kind of AA history

fragments.



There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1

Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the

first General Service Conference in 1951, but

they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)

all of which were passed unanimously.



Among them was one that read "This Conference

feels that in future years AA textbook

literature should have Conference approval."



There was also a notation that "Prior to the

vote on this subject, it was pointed out that

adoption of the suggestion would not preclude

the continued issuance of various printed

documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire

to review, edit or censor non-Foundation

material is, implied. The objective is to

provide, in the future, a means of distin-

guishing Foundation literature from that

issued locally or by non-AA interests."



The 1951 Conference did not have a Conference

Committee on Literature. The four 1951

Conference Committees were: a "Committee

on New Trustees," an "Advisory Committee on

the Budget," a "Committee on Agenda," and a

"Committee on the Conference Report." The

Committee on Agenda presented the recommend-

ation on Conference-approved literature

(this is parenthetically noted in publication

M-39 which records all the advisory actions

that were passed by the Conferences).



Based on the 1951 Conference recommendation,

a Trustee's (or Foundation's) Committee on

Literature was formed to make a report to

the 1952 Conference recommending literature

that should be retained and future literature

items that would be needed. Bill W also

reported on the literature projects he was

engaged in.



In 1952, Panel 2 (consisting of 38 additional

delegates) joined with Panel 1 for the first

Conference of all Delegates attending. Seven

Conference Committees were formed (or renamed)

as "Nominating," "Finance," "Literature,"

"Policy," "Agenda," "Trustees," and "Conference

Report."



Among the 1952 Conference Literature

Committee's approved recommendations were:



1. That the report of the Foundation's

Committee on Literature, together with Bill's

report of his proposed program of activity

be approved.



2. That the following be incorporated on

all literature published by the Works

Publishing, Inc: "Issued by Works Publishing,

Inc., sole publishing agency of the Society

of Alcoholics Anonymous. Approved by the

General Service Conference of AA."



3. That this conference reaffirm the stand

taken by the 1951 Conference as follows:

"This conference has no desire to review,

edit, or censor non-Foundation material.

Our object is to provide, in the future,

a means of distinguishing Foundation

literature from that issued locally or

by non-AA interests."



By approving the Trustee's (or Foundation's)

Committee recommendations for literature

to be retained, the 1952 Conference retro-

actively approved the Big Book and several

existing pamphlets which included the long

form of the Traditions. Bill's approved

"program of activity" resulted in later

publication of six Conference-approved books:



**The 12&12 published in 1953



**The 3rd Legacy Manual published in 1955 -

renamed "The AA Service Manual" in 1969



**The 2nd edition Big Book published in 1955



**AA Comes of Age published in 1957



**The 12 Concepts for World Service published

in 1962



**The AA way of Life published in 1966 -

renamed As Bill Sees It in 1975



From perusing the final reports, it seems that

the terms "Conference-approved" or "Conference

approval" were well seeded (not necessarily

frequently stated) in the Conference vocabulary

in 1951 and 1952. While neither term appeared

in the 1953 Conference report, the 1954 report

was quite another matter and included the

term "Conference-approved" numerous times

throughout the report.



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



Message 4793 from <chief_roger@yahoo.com>

(chief_roger at yahoo.com)



History of the term Conference Approved



In diner discussion recently following a

meeting the question was raised, when did we

begin to use the term conference approved AA

literature to separate it as different from

central office publications and other material

related to alcoholism or recovery?



I searched the many postings on conference

approved, have the Box 459 article explaining

what is meant and not meant and discovered

that the very first GSC Literature Committee

Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years,

A.A. textbook literature should have Conference

approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the

vote on this subject, it was pointed out that

the adoption of the suggestion should not

preclude the continued issuance of various

printed documents by non-Foundation sources.

No desire to review, edit or censor non-

Foundation material is implied. The objective

is to provide, in the future, a means of

distinguishing Foundation literature from

that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests."



This seems the beginning of AA practice in

separating literature.



Anyone know how the term "conference approved"

evolved into the AA lexicon?



Roger W.













Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4799 Mike Custer
Father Martin: heart attack Father Martin: heart attack 1/16/2008 4:44:00 AM


Last Thursday, Father Martin was hospitalized

after experiencing a heart attack. To date,

he is still hospitalized, however stable.



In keeping with our belief that prayer works,

join us in praying for his continued recovery.



Email us at fathermartin@fathermartin.com

your words of encouragement and well wishes.

Although Father Martin is unable to read

your message himself, Mae, Micki or another

family member will read your message to him.



Cards can be mailed to:



218 Fulford Ave

Bel Air, Maryland 21014


0 -1 0 0
4800 Tom Hickcox
Extremely long early Big Book draft? Extremely long early Big Book draft? 1/15/2008 11:40:00 PM


I have seen references in accounts of the

writing of the Big Book to an early draft that

yielded a book three to four times the length

of the one that was printed. The story goes

that the draft was put out for comment and a

number of persons said it was entirely too

long so it was cut back to its present form,

or close to it.



Manuscripts that are close to what was printed

survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay

for modest sums, usually.



My question to the group is how much of this

story about an extremely long early draft is

based on fact? If the story is generally

accepted as true, why did none of the original

much longer manuscripts survive? It seems

to me if enough copies were put out for

comment, some of them should have survived.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4801 Tom Hickcox
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/15/2008 6:12:00 PM


Message 4798 from "Arthur S"

<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

on "History of the term Conference Approved"



>I love getting into these kind of AA history

>fragments.

>

>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1

>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the

>first General Service Conference in 1951, but

>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)

>all of which were passed unanimously.

>

>Among them was one that read "This Conference

>feels that in future years AA textbook

>literature should have Conference approval."



- - - -



I love reading your contributions to this

forum, Arthur!



Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"?



I look in the two books that I consider to

be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12,

and the term textbook is used exactly once,

in the 12x12, and refers to school and

medical textbooks.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4802 Arthur S
RE: Extremely long early Big Book draft? Extremely long early Big Book draft? 1/16/2008 1:49:00 PM


Hi Tom



I've found only two references to the reputed

drastic editing and paring of the original

Big Book manuscript. One is in "Bill W" by

Francis Hartigan (pg 126) the other in "Pass

It On" (pg 204). Both references are sustained

solely by anecdote and quite frankly I

question their accuracy (although, among a

number of fables in AA, it makes for enter-

taining legend).



"AA Comes of Age" is silent on the matter. If

such a severe paring did occur I find it hard

to believe that Bill W would have forgotten

to mention it (he colorfully discusses the

editing done to the personal stories and

member reaction to it).



The editing and paring was done by Tom Uzzell

in February/March 1939. 400 copies of the

manuscript had been distributed the prior

January (1939) for review and comment. The

version of the manuscript distributed, as you

note, clearly did not have a page count that

some attribute to it (i.e. 600 to 1200 pages).

Uzzell did his editing after those review

copies were returned.



The mark-up master manuscript, delivered to

Cornwall Press for creation of galley proofs,

was a copy of the manuscript distributed in

January 1939.



Check the links below for some fascinating

info and pictures:



http://aaholygrail.com/3.html

(very nice capsule history)



http://aaholygrail.com/1.html

(magnificent photos)



My guess is that claims of a 600-1200 page

manuscript serve to provide color but do not

accurately tell the Big Book story.



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)



The stories were edited severely, not the

first eleven chapters. The surplusage was

cut from the stories, not from the first

eleven chapters of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Very little was cut from the multilith

version, which didn't include the stories

[other than Bill's Story]. There were lots

of phraseology changes from the multilith

version, but very few deletions. The surgery

was performed by professional writer "friends"

of the First Hundred.



- - - -



Message 4800 from Tom Hickcox

<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

asked the question:



I have seen references in accounts of the

writing of the Big Book to an early draft that

yielded a book three to four times the length

of the one that was printed. The story goes

that the draft was put out for comment and a

number of persons said it was entirely too

long so it was cut back to its present form,

or close to it.



Manuscripts that are close to what was printed

survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay

for modest sums, usually.



My question to the group is how much of this

story about an extremely long early draft is

based on fact? If the story is generally

accepted as true, why did none of the original

much longer manuscripts survive? It seems

to me if enough copies were put out for

comment, some of them should have survived.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4803 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark 1/17/2008 3:52:00 PM


From: Jared Lobdell <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

about Bill W's travels from Brooklyn to Newark,



A response to: "johnlawlee"

<johnlawlee@yahoo.com> (johnlawlee at yahoo.com)



- - - -



JOHN:



There were no PATH trains from New Jersey

to the World Trade Center at that time.



- - - -



JARED:



It's true the lines were not called PATH and

the WTC didn't exist in the 1930s, but the

H&M (now PATH) lines between Hudson Terminal

(the WTC location) and Newark were in fact

opened in 1911 and were certainly in operation

in the 1930s.



- - - -



JOHN:



While it is physically possible to travel by

subways from Brooklyn to Newark, I can't see

Bill Wilson making that daily commute. Bill

was enthralled with Manhattan, and his

enthusiasm for Honor Dealers car wax was

tepid at best. Hank, Bill and Ruth were

crowded into a hole-in-the-wall office on

William Street, Newark after being evicted

from a larger suite in the same building.



The better view is that Bill bounced into

the Newark office once or twice a week to

give dictation to Ruth on Honor Dealers or

AA issues. Mitchell K's book, How It

Worked, indicates that "Bill was met at the

train station in New York by Hank P...."

upon returning from Akron with approval for

the book project and chain of hospitals

[p.90]. That would have been Penn Station in

Manhattan.



Susan Cheever thinks it's possible to take

a train from Grand Central to Akron, but

everyone else would have departed from Penn

Station, the magnificent work of McKim Mead

[see Cheever at p.131].



- - - -



JARED:



Not only physically possible (if we count

the H&M "tubes" as a "subway" -- though in

fact to Newark they used the Pennsy track past

Manhattan Transfer), but in fact the most

convenient way from BH to Newark by public

transportation, tho' I agree Bill would have

preferred to be driven, and that -- tho'

a "commute" -- it certainly wasn't something

Bill did every day.



I still can't agree with the implication of

your original statement that "there were no

PATH trains from New Jersey to the World Trade

Center at that time" -- tho' as I noted it's

technically true since it wasn't called PATH

and there was no WTC complex.



On your other point, evidence suggests to me

that the principal NY-Akron service was indeed

to and from Grand Central on the NYCentral,

not Penn Station on the Pennsy.



The Broadway Ltd (the chief Pennsy NY-Chicago

train) had as its stops (in the 1930s)

New York Penn Station, Newark Penn Station,

North Philadelphia, Paoli, Harrisburg,

Baker Street Station (Fort Wayne), Englewood

Union Station, Chicago Union Station (it hit

Cleveland in the very early hours of the

morning).



There were Cleveland (and Pittsburgh) stops

on trains running eastward to NY (Penn Station),

on the old Cleveland & Pittsburgh line, but

the Akron Pennsy station was part of the

Cleveland, Akron & Columbus (N/S) route and

not on the main C&P, so far as I know.



It's true that from 1923 to 1926 the B&O

operated the Capitol Limited (through Akron)

into Penn Station, but after 1926 into the

Jersey Central terminal at Jersey City.



So I can't say I agree that "everyone else"

would have gone from NY Penn Station to Akron

(unless I've overlooked a RR that served

Akron and came into Penn Station, which

is possible).



Do we know that Hank in fact usually drove

into NYC? -- he could easily have taken

the DL&W into Hoboken and the "tubes" over.



-- Jared


0 -1 0 0
4804 Patricia
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/16/2008 10:15:00 AM


Comments from Patricia, Jenny A., and Arthur S.



What did they mean by the phrase "AA textbook

literature" in the conference advisory action

passed in 1951?



- - - -



Responding to message 4798 from "Arthur S"

<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)



... the first General Service Conference in

1951 ... passed quite a few advisory actions

(16) all of which were passed unanimously.

Among them was one that read "This Confer-

ence feels that in future years AA textbook

literature should have Conference approval."



- - - -



From: Patricia <pdixonrae@yahoo.com>

(pdixonrae at yahoo.com)



On the dust cover of my second, third and

fourth edition it says this book is the

basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous.



Patricia



- - - -



From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Bill W describes 12 Steps and 12 Traditions

as "our textbook". (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes

of Age, Appendix B: Why Alcoholics Anonymous

is Anonymous).



The dust cover of the fourth edition of the

Big Book says it is "the basic text for

Alcoholics Anonymous."



Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines

a text as, first, "the original written or

printed words and form of a literary work."

For textbook it says "a book containing a

presentation of the principles of a subject."



- - - -



From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>



Hey Tom



"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are

terms that seemed to be well-seeded. My sense

is that the terms were initially used

generically early in AA history and over time

came to signify the Big Book pages numbered

1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the

1st edition).



In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes

the 12&12: "One more noteworthy event marked

this period of quiet: the publication of

A.A.'s Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in

1953. This small volume is strictly a textbook

which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic

principles and their application, in detail

and with great care."



On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book:

"Suppose our embryo book were someday to

become the chief text for our fellowship."



Further Big Book references:



On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S.

liked the new steps very much. As the remainder

of the book text developed, based on the

Twelve Steps, they continued to report their

approval.



On page 164: "We had not gone much farther

with the text of the book when it was evident

that something more was needed. There would

have to be a story or case history section."



[... also ...]



"It was felt also that the story section

could identify us with the distant reader in

a way that the text itself might not.



[... also ...]



"The cries of the anguished edited tale-

tellers finally subsided and the story

section of the book was complete in the

latter part of January, 1939. So at last

was the text."



On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepub-

lication copy of the text and some of the

stories and try the book out on our own

membership and on every kind and class of

person that has anything to do with drunks?"



On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard,

a well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, New

Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our

book was too full of the words "you" and "must."



[... also ...]



"To make this shift throughout the text of

the book would be a big job."



On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big

Book will soon be published in Norwegian.

Because of the language similarity, the

Danes and the Swedes will also be able to

read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.



On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows

that we have just published the second edition

of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you

have it in your hands already. Today as we

pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite

fitting that this long-pondered edition is now

in readiness for the future. The scope and

power of its case history section has been

increased, but of course the old familiar

text of the book stands unchanged."



On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book

is a text aimed to show an alcoholic the

attitude he ought to take and precisely the

steps he may follow to effect his own

recovery."



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
4805 tsirish1
Dr Bob''s obsession Dr Bob''s obsession 1/18/2008 12:22:00 PM


I have heard for years in meetings the claim

that Dr. Bob never got over his mental

obsession to drink until the day he died.



If that is true, where is that statement

written?



Thanks,

BB Tim


0 -1 0 0
4806 jlobdell54
Confusion on H. F. Heard Confusion on H. F. Heard 1/21/2008 10:41:00 AM


I have recently seen on a couple of AA-related

history sites a statement that H. F. Heard was

a pen-name for Aldous Huxley.



In fact H. F. Heard was Henry FitzGerald Heard

(1889-1971) who also wrote as Gerald Heard.



He was a friend of Aldous Huxley (and of Bill

Wilson) but he certainly was not Aldous

Huxley.



I thought perhaps this ought to be noted on

the HistoryLovers website.


0 -1 0 0
4807 Arthur S
Re: the phrase AA textbook (correction) the phrase AA textbook (correction) 1/20/2008 7:41:00 PM


Hi



Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I

goofed on an AA Comes of Age page reference.



The ending citation referring to pages 315-316

are incorrect and should read 307-308.



Thanks Laurie!



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com]

Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook



Hey Tom



"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms that seemed to be

well-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used generically

early in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book pages

numbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed).



In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One more

noteworthy event marked this period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'s

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume is strictly a

textbook which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic principles and their

application, in detail and with great care."



On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book were

someday to become the chief text for our fellowship."



Further Big Book references:



On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much.

As the remainder of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, they

continued to report their approval.



On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when it

was evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a story

or case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the story

section could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the text

itself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished edited

taletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was complete

in the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text."



On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text and

some of the stories and try the book out on our own membership and on every

kind and class of person that has anything to do with drunks?"



On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist of

Montclair, New Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our book was too full

of the words "you" and "must." [... also ...] "To make this shift throughout

the text of the book would be a big job."



On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published in

Norwegian. Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes will

also be able to read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.



On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows that we have just published

the second edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it in

your hands already. Today as we pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite

fitting that this long-pondered edition is now in readiness for the future.

The scope and power of its case history section has been increased, but of

course the old familiar text of the book stands unchanged."



On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text aimed to show an

alcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he may

follow to effect his, own recovery."



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox

Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook



Message 4798 from "Arthur S"

<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

on "History of the term Conference Approved"



>I love getting into these kind of AA history

>fragments.

>

>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1

>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the

>first General Service Conference in 1951, but

>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)

>all of which were passed unanimously.

>

>Among them was one that read "This Conference

>feels that in future years AA textbook

>literature should have Conference approval."



- - - -



I love reading your contributions to this

forum, Arthur!



Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"?



I look in the two books that I consider to

be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12,

and the term textbook is used exactly once,

in the 12x12, and refers to school and

medical textbooks.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge











Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4808 Jay Lawyer
RE: Dr Bob''s obsession Dr Bob''s obsession 1/19/2008 6:14:00 AM


BB Tom,



Open your BB. In Doctor Bob's Nightmare (pg

181, 3rd edition), he explains, "Unlike most

of our crowd, I did not get over my craving

for liquor much during the first two and

one-half years of abstinence. It was almost

always with me"



Here is your answer straight from the

Doc's mouth: for "the first 2-1/2 years,"

NOT "until the day he died."



So it would seem that this statement that you

have heard at meetings is untrue.



Jay



- - - -



Message #4805 from <tsirish1@yahoo.com>

(tsirish1 at yahoo.com)



I have heard for years in meetings the claim

that Dr. Bob never got over his mental

obsession to drink until the day he died.



If that is true, where is that statement

written?



Thanks,

BB Tim


0 -1 0 0
4809 flat412acrehouse
Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment 1/19/2008 10:06:00 AM


Big Book pages 142-143



Dear Glenn



I hope that you are keeping well.



With regards to the above pages from To

Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who

are drinking,or who are just getting over a

spree, a certain amount of physical treatment

is desirable, even imperative...If you propose

such a procedure to him, it may be necessary

to advance the cost of treatment, but we

believe it should be made plain to him that

any expense will later be deducted from

his pay."



One of our group wished to know where the

idea that your employee would pay back for

any of his medical treatment came from.



Thanking you in anticipation

Gentle blessings

Leah



- - - -



From the moderator:



I'm going to ask some of our group who

know more about the history of employee

medical and health insurance programs

in the United States if they can tell us

more about what it was like in 1939,

when the Big Book was published.



My father told me that the railroads had

railroad doctors back then, who would saw

off your leg if you were a railroad worker

who got your leg crushed between two

couplers. But do any of the people in

our group know if even that was common?



There were a few places in the U.S. by

1939 where employees could pay for medical

or hospitalization insurance, but this was

not widespread or common, to the best of

my knowledge.



And the problem with alcoholism was that

this was regarded by most people as a

moral failing, which should simply be

treated punitively. Just fire him! Or

throw him in jail. That was what most

people would have said.



So even the very few people who had some

kind of medical or hospitalization insurance

in 1939 would not have been able to use it

for alcohol-related problems.



The disease concept of alcoholism was

introduced in an attempt to get medical

treatment provided for alcoholics when

they needed it (for detoxing for example).



But in the U.S. in 1939, the idea that an

employer might advance money to an employee

to go into a hospital to detox (even if the

employee paid the money back afterwards)

was a quite radical new idea. To the best

of my knowledge anyway.



Who in our group knows more about employee

health benefits (if any) and how they were

handled in the U.S. back in the 1930's?



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)



- - - -



P.S. And for the sake of the younger folks

in the U.K. and places like that, we need

to remember that even in the U.K., the

National Health Service did not come along

until 1948.



See the Wikipedia article on "Health care"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care



"In most developed countries and many

developing countries health care is provided

to everyone regardless of their ability to

pay. The National Health Service in the United

Kingdom was the world's first universal

health care system provided by government.

It was established in 1948 by Clement Atlee's

Labour government. Alternatively, compulsory

government funded health insurance with

nominal fees can be provided, as with Italy,

which, according to the World Health Organisation,

has the second-best health system in the world.

Other examples are Medicare in Australia,

established in the 1970s by the Labor government,

and by the same name Medicare was established

in Canada between 1966 and 1984. Universal

health care contrasts to the systems like health

care in the United States or South Africa."


0 -1 0 0
4810 Mitchell K.
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/18/2008 7:15:00 PM


Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash:



From: "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)



While the textbook defining continues, the

book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is

and has been identified as an interpretive

commentary written by a co-founder. If the

12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving

information, The Little Red Book is also a

textbook of equal value and validity.



The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous

World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved

book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again --

an interpretive commentary written by a

co-founder.



The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a

commentary ON the program. If the fact that

Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T.

wrote the book gives it validity, the fact

that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into

the writing of The Little Red Book gives it

equal validity.



- - - -



From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>

(barefootbill at optonline.net)



And please don't miss that the foreword in the

12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics

Anonymous' became the basic text of the

Fellowship, and it still is."



Just Love,



Barefoot Bill


0 -1 0 0
4811 secondles
Re: Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment 1/21/2008 3:07:00 PM


Hi Folks !



I am one of those "old" ones who lived (as a

child) in the early 1930s living in a small

town in Vermont. My father worked in several

small but national branches of industry.



"Benefits" was not a term known then. Pay was

handled in cash in a small envelope. There

was nothing held out for taxes and there

never was an accounting (by the employer)

for wages paid annually.



I can only assume that the instance cited in

the Big Book might occur on a very individual

basis, and perhaps only as a speculation rather

than a common practice. The period of the

Great Depression (1930s) was a very unstable

time, and work, any work, was usually hard to

come by.



As Glenn remarks, public attitude was callous

or harsh regarding alcoholics, let alone

thinking of offering "help" or giving

"benefits."



Regards to all



Les



- - - -



"flat412acrehouse" <leah@...> wrote:

>

> Big Book pages 142-143

>

> Dear Glenn

>

> I hope that you are keeping well.

>

> With regards to the above pages from To

> Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who

> are drinking,or who are just getting over a

> spree, a certain amount of physical treatment

> is desirable, even imperative...If you propose

> such a procedure to him, it may be necessary

> to advance the cost of treatment, but we

> believe it should be made plain to him that

> any expense will later be deducted from

> his pay."

>

> One of our group wished to know where the

> idea that your employee would pay back for

> any of his medical treatment came from.

>

> Thanking you in anticipation

> Gentle blessings

> Leah


0 -1 0 0
4812 Glenn Chesnut
Photos of Victor Kitchen Photos of Victor Kitchen 1/24/2008 2:44:00 PM


Photos of Victor C. Kitchen (from his family

and other sources) have now been collected at:



http://hindsfoot.org/kchange3.html



http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html



Vic was a member of the Oxford Group in New

York City and a friend of Bill Wilson's when

Bill joined the Oxford Group. Dr. Bob may

have met him too, when Vic visited Ohio as

part of an Oxford Group team.



Vic wrote an important Oxford Group work,

"I Was a Pagan."



Vic (a New York advertising executive) eventu-

ally became a full time worker for all the

rest of his life for the Oxford Group and its

successor Moral Re-Armament.


0 -1 0 0
4813 David LeBlanc
First woman in AA? First woman in AA? 1/22/2008 11:53:00 PM


A question came up in my group. Who was the

first woman to join AA and when did she join?



Can anyone help?



- - - -



From the moderator: if you go to our Message

Board at



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages



And do a search for "first woman" in quotation

marks, you will see that there is a lot of

debate about who holds this honor. Part of

this is a matter of definition. Do you just

want to know the first woman who tried the

program, even if she only stayed sober for

two or three weeks, and then went back out and

never came back?



Message 3588 from Tom Hickcox

<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)

says (accurately I believe) that if we want

to ask who was the first woman who joined AA

and gained long term sobriety, that the top

two candidates are:



Sylvia Kauffmann, whose story in the Big

Book was the "Keys to the Kingdom"



Marty Mann, whose story in the Big Book

was "Women Suffer Too"



Nancy Olson, the founder of the

AAHistoryLovers, put together (with the

help of other members of this group)

a set of short biographies of the people

whose stories got in the Big Book. You

can read Nancy's account of both Sylvia's

life and Marty's life (with photographs of

both women) in that set of biographies.



This appears in more than one place online,

but one place is Al W.'s West Baltimore AA

website (Al and Nancy were very good friends,

and Al was one of her greatest personal

supporters):



http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm



If you want a fuller account of Mrs. Marty

Mann's life, the full biography is Sally

Brown and David R. Brown, "A Biography of

Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alco-

holics Anonymous (Center City, Minnesota:

Hazelden, 2001).



There is also interesting material about

Marty Mann in passing in both of these books:



http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html



http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
4814 Tom Hickcox
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/21/2008 5:11:00 PM


>From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>

>(barefootbill at optonline.net)

>

>And please don't miss that the foreword in the

>12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics

>Anonymous' became the basic text of the

>Fellowship, and it still is."



- - - -



That part of the foreword has stuck out to me

for some time.



The foreword itself has a lot of useful

information. Do we know who wrote it?



The language says that the Big Book was not

written as "the basic text of the Fellowship"

but the book became that at some point down

the road. My question would be, what point

was that and what are the references for

that particular date?



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4815 jenny andrews
Re: the phrase AA textbook (correction) the phrase AA textbook (correction) 1/22/2008 6:44:00 AM


We should note that the quotation from pp

307-8 in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age

is from an appendix - a paper titled "A new

approach to psychotherapy in chonic alcoholism"

by William Silkworth, a non-AA member comment-

ing about the Big Book.



Laurie A.



- - - -



To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Sun, 20 Jan

2008 18:41:02 -0600Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook

(correction)



Hi Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I goofed on an AA Comes of Age page

reference.The ending citation referring to pages 315-316 are incorrect and

should read 307-308.Thanks Laurie!CheersArthur-----Original Message-----From:

Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23

PMTo: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comSubject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the

phrase AA textbookHey Tom"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms that

seemed to bewell-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used

genericallyearly in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book

pagesnumbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed).In AA Comes of

Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One morenoteworthy event marked this

period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'sTwelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in

1953. This small volume is strictly atextbook which explains A.A.'s twenty-four

basic principles and theirapplication, in detail and with great care."On page

154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book weresomeday to become

the chief text for our fellowship."Further Big Book references:On page 162:

Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much.As the remainder

of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, theycontinued to report

their approval.On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of the

book when itwas evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a

storyor case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the

storysection could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the

textitself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished

editedtaletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was

completein the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text."On page

165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text andsome of the

stories and try the book out on our own membership and on everykind and class of

person that has anything to do with drunks?"On page 167: "One of them came from

Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist ofMontclair, New Jersey. He pointed out

that the text of our book was too fullof the words "you" and "must." [... also

...] "To make this shift throughoutthe text of the book would be a big job."On

pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published inNorwegian.

Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes willalso be able to

read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.On page 220: "Everyone here at

St. Louis knows that we have just publishedthe second edition of the book

Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it inyour hands already. Today as we pass

A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quitefitting that this long-pondered edition

is now in readiness for the future.The scope and power of its case history

section has been increased, but ofcourse the old familiar text of the book

stands unchanged."On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text aimed

to show analcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he

mayfollow to effect his, own recovery."CheersArthur-----Original

Message-----From:

AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On

Behalf Of Tom HickcoxSent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PMTo:

AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comSubject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA

textbookMessage 4798 from "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at

msn.com) on "History of the term Conference Approved">I love getting into these

kind of AA history>fragments.>>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel

1>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the>first General Service Conference in

1951, but>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)>all of which were passed

unanimously.>>Among them was one that read "This Conference>feels that in future

years AA textbook>literature should have Conference approval."- - - -I love

reading your contributions to this forum, Arthur!Did that panel define the term

"A.A. textbook"?I look in the two books that I consider to be A.A. textbooks,

the Big Book and the 12x12, and the term textbook is used exactly once, in the

12x12, and refers to school and medical textbooks.Tommy H in Baton RougeYahoo!

Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4816 dino
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/22/2008 11:09:00 AM


Ditto to everything said by Mitch and Bill.

Nowhere in the Big Book does it say that

it's a text book. It says: "Because this book

has become the Basic text for our society..."



I think the key word here is basic (i.e. the

number 1, fundamental, main book used to

convey the story of how the first 40 members

recovered from alcoholism.)



In the 12&12 pg. 17 Bill states "When pub-

lished in 1939 the book Alcoholics Anonymous

became the basic text of our society and

still is the purpose of this present volume

(the 12&12) is to broaden and deepen our

understanding of the steps as first written

in the earlier work.



I would imagine(who knows?) that on pg. 219

of AACOA that Bill is intending the 12/12 to

instruct the (oftimes reluctant)fellowship at

large about the spiritual and practical

dimensions of the traditions and how they

complement and reinforce one another.



The Conference itself has never to my knowledge

refered to the 12/12 as a textbook.



THANKS



- - - -



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:

>

> Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash:

>

> From: "Mitchell K."

> <mitchell_k_archivist@...>

> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

>

> While the textbook defining continues, the

> book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is

> and has been identified as an interpretive

> commentary written by a co-founder. If the

> 12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving

> information, The Little Red Book is also a

> textbook of equal value and validity.

>

> The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous

> World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved

> book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again --

> an interpretive commentary written by a

> co-founder.

>

> The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a

> commentary ON the program. If the fact that

> Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T.

> wrote the book gives it validity, the fact

> that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into

> the writing of The Little Red Book gives it

> equal validity.

>

> - - - -

>

> From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@...>

> (barefootbill at optonline.net)

>

> And please don't miss that the foreword in the

> 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics

> Anonymous' became the basic text of the

> Fellowship, and it still is."

>

> Just Love,

>

> Barefoot Bill


0 -1 0 0
4817 Dean at ComPlanners
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/22/2008 11:07:00 AM


AAHistoryLovers,



In case it has been missed ...



The dust jacket of the Fourth Edition has

this statement: "This is the Fourth Edition

of the Big Book, the Basic Text for Alcoholics

Anonymous."



Note that the statement includes the entire

book. A Bill W. quote (from a 1953 letter)

appears on the inside flap: "The story

section of the Big Book is far more important

than most of us think. It is our principle

means of identifying with the reader outside

A.A.; it is the written equivalent of hearing

speakers at an A.A. meeting; it is our show

window of results."



Dean


0 -1 0 0
4818 Arthur S
RE: Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/25/2008 1:22:00 PM


There is a great deal of "AA theater" in the

way some choose to officiously portray the

Big Book and ordain it to a hyper-hallowed

station on the altar of sobriety.



I love the Big Book, study it, and use it for

12th Step work. I also use the 12&12 and

consider it a necessary companion to the Big

Book given the minimal amount of text in the

Big Book on several of the 12 Steps. The 12

Steps and their explanation occurred late in

the production of the Big Book and it shows.

I believe the 12&12 was intended to compensate

for this and dislike seeing the 12&12 directly

or indirectly trivialized in comparison to

the Big Book.



It's been my understanding (and practice) to

refer to a particular portion of the Big Book

as the "basic text" of the book. That portion

is essentially defined by what is included in

the abridged edition. It is also the portion

of the Big Book that several Conferences

repeatedly put off-limits for any changes

during the development of the 4th edition. This

does not mean that the terms "basic text" and

"textbook" cannot be used to generically

describe other literature works. In fact,

historically, both terms have been used by

Bill W and the Conference to do just that.



In his January 1961 letter to Dr Jung, Bill W

wrote "There immediately came to me an

illumination of enormous impact and dimension,

something which I have since tried to describe

in the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' and also

in 'AA Comes of Age,' basic texts which I am

sending to you."



The 1953 final Conference report, under

Literature Committee recommendations, noted

"Ask the Delegates to weigh this question

for submission to the 1954 Conference: Does

the Conference feel it should depart from

its purely textbook program by printing

non-textbook literature such as the 24 Hour

Book of Meditation?" The 12&12 was introduced

at the 1953 Conference so it seems that it

was considered a part of the "purely textbook

program" as were the rest of Bill's literature

projects approved by the 1952 General Service

Conference.



My impression is that the terms "text book"

and/or "basic text" generically applied to

any book that explained AA's principles (the

Steps, Traditions and later the Concepts).

Terminology can either illuminate or obfuscate.

Please see the embedded replies below and

make your own judgment:



-------------------------



Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase

AA textbook -- Comments from Mitchell K. and

Bill Lash:



From: "Mitchell K."



Comment 1: While the textbook defining

continues, the book Twelve Steps and Twelve

Traditions is and has been identified as an

interpretive commentary written by a

co-founder. If the 12&12 is a textbook by

virtue of giving information, The Little

Red Book is also a textbook of equal value

and validity.



Reply 1:



Identified by whom and when and by what

authority? In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W

describes the 12&12 with the statement: "One

more noteworthy event marked this period of

quiet: the publication of AA's Twelve Steps and

Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume

is strictly a textbook which explains AA's

twenty-four basic principles and their

application, in detail and with great care."

The 1952 final Conference report noted that

Bill W identified his plans for what became

the Steps portion of the 12&12 with a

description of it being "A series of orderly,

point-by-point essays on the Twelve Steps."

The 1952 final Conference report further noted

that "Bill exhibited to the Conference a sample

copy of 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,'

his first full-length commentary on AA since

the writing of The Big Book." The statement

seems to also describe the Big Book as a

"full-length commentary" (which takes nothing

at all away from the Big Book).



Comment 2: The description given by Alcoholics

Anonymous World Services, Inc. in the

Conference-Approved book Alcoholics Anonymous

is, once again -- an interpretive commentary

written by a co-founder.



Reply 2:



All editions of the Big Book are silent on the

12&12. Can a specific source reference be

provided so that what is cited can be verified?

The 2007 Conference-Approved Literature Catalog

describes the 12&12 with the statement: "Bill

W's 24 essays on the Steps and the Traditions

discuss the principles of individual recovery

and group unity." The AA.org web site

description is "Twelve Steps and Twelve

Traditions (192 pages) Published in 1953,

this book contains a detailed interpretation

of principles of personal recovery and group

survival by Bill W, co-founder of the Fellow-

ship." It doesn't seem appropriate to me to

trivialize the 12&12 with the rubric

"interpretive commentary by a co-founder."

The 12&12 was a major and important work and

a very deliberate follow-on work to the Big

Book to explain the 12 Steps (and Traditions)

in detail.



Comment 3: The 12&12 is not THE program. It

is a commentary ON the program. If the fact

that Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr.

Harry T. wrote the book gives it validity,

the fact that Dr. Bob had a great deal of

input into the writing of The Little Red Book

gives it equal validity.



Reply 3:



The attempted semantic distinctions of

uppercase "THE" and "ON" are fatuous and

absurd. The 12 Steps are the principles of

AA's program of recovery. Both the Big Book

and 12&12 provide "basic text" (i.e. "the

main body of a book") to explain those

principles. Bill W is credited as the primary

author of both works (and as a rule received

assistance from others in all his writing

projects). The 12&12 does a far better job

explaining Steps 6, 7 and 8 with its 20 pages

(pgs 63-82) of "interpretive commentary by

a co-founder" than do the 3 paragraphs of

"THE" program in the Big Book (pg 76).



It seems fairly obvious, and common sense,

that the 12&12 and Big Book are companion works

in an evolutionary sequence of accumulated

experience. When the Big Book was published

in 1939 Bill W was 4 years sober, there were 2

groups and around 100 members. When the 12&12

was published in 1953 Bill was 19 years sober,

there were an estimated 6,000 groups and

128,000 members. It suggests to me that a lot

more experience went into writing the 12&12

than the Big Book (I hope that doesn't consti-

tute AA heresy or apostasy).



From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>



Comment: And please don't miss that the

foreword in the 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The

book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became the basic

text of the Fellowship, and it still is."



Reply:



Please also don't miss the sentence that

immediately follows the one cited that states

"This present volume (i.e. the 12&12) proposes

to broaden and deepen the understanding of the

Twelve Steps as first written in the earlier

work." (i.e. the Big Book)



Also it seems relevant to cite the last para-

graph of the 12&12 Foreword (pg 18) which

states "It is hoped that this volume will

afford all who read it a close-up view of the

principle that made Alcoholics Anonymous what

it is."



Cheers



Arthur


0 -1 0 0
4819 jlobdell54
Dr. Bob''s Continuing Temptation Dr. Bob''s Continuing Temptation 1/25/2008 12:28:00 PM


From Dr. Bob's Last Major Talk, December 1948:



"The fact that my sobriety has been maintained

continuously for 13½ years doesn't allow me to

think that I am necessarily any further away

from my next drink than any of you people. I'm

still very human, and I still think a double

Scotch would taste awfully good. If it wouldn't

produce disastrous results, I might try it.

I don't know. I have no reason to think that

it would taste any different - but I have no

legitimate reason to believe that the results

would be any different, either."



This does suggest that he continued to think

about drinking.



- - - -



From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)



Many of the people posting messages on this

topic are confusing the term "obsession" with

a "craving" or urge to drink. An obsession is

an idea that blocks all other ideas. If an

alcoholic gets an obsession to drink, he always

drinks.



Doctor Bob's last obsession to drink was in

June of 1935. He reported thoughts of drinking

in his 1939 First Edition story, but never

had an obsession to drink after June of 1935.



The difference between a craving and an

obsession is explained on pages xxviii, xxix

and xxx of The Doctor's Opinion in the Big

Book.



John Lee

Pittsburgh


0 -1 0 0
4820 Mitchell K.
Re: Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment 1/22/2008 7:50:00 AM


In the early days in Cleveland, if one could

not afford treatment (which equated only to

detox in an "approved" hospital) there was

the AA Association. Members laid out the cost

of detox and the individual paid them back.

Usually, if a prospect was in danger of losing

their job or already had lost their job, the

local AA members visited the employer and due

to their overwhelming success and reputation,

the employer quite often allowed the alcoholic

employee to continue working after detox and

attending meetings. There was a connection

with the employer, the courts, the hospitals,

etc. and AA members so that wages could have

been garnished if the individual didn't pay

the cost back to the AAA so that others might

also benefit.



Records from Cleveland showed balance sheets

from the association showing who was in the

hospital, how much they owed, who paid back,

etc.



Not sure if this was what the book referred

to but I would think that the practice wasn't

unknown in other places.


0 -1 0 0
4821 Robert Stonebraker
Re: First woman in AA? First woman in AA? 1/25/2008 4:24:00 AM


From Arthur S. and Bob S.



Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),

Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron)



- - - -



David L. asked: A question came up in my group.

Who was the first woman to join AA and when did

she join?



- - - -



From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com)



The first woman member was Florence R

(from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is

"A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the

Washington DC/Baltimore area.



Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a

possible suicide).



Fitz M identified her in the morgue.



Arthur



- - - -



From: "Robert Stonebraker"

<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)



Who was first, Jane or Florence?



Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S.

(Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have

not been able to discover which was first

to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group

as it was then.



This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123

from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers:



Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had

already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent

and Canton, and it was probably early 1937

when a few prospects started drifting down

from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in

twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two

carloads.)



Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the

35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in

1937, about the same time he started. Colorful

and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor,

Jane is said to be the first woman in the

area to have attained any length of sobriety -

meaning a few months.



Oldtimers long remembered her story of being

left unattended by her husband to supervise

the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she

and the paperhanger started drinking. Each

time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or

the other would walk into it. When her husband

came home that evening, both Jane and the

paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by

empty bottles (as her husband told her later)

and all bound up in shredded paper and waste.



- - - -



Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of

1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find,

stayed sober till she died. At any rate,

she was credited having the longest

uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA.



I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From

Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA

at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till

she died (April 1963).



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
4822 Glenn Chesnut
Re: First woman in AA? First woman in AA? 1/25/2008 4:31:00 PM


Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),

Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron),

Mary Campbell (from somewhere in the South),

Lil (in Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98,

109, 241), and of course Marty Mann, are all

names of women which appear in accounts of the

early AA period.



- - - -



Message 3169 from "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3169



The name Jane S. does not appear in any of

the early Cleveland archival materials or

dozens of meeting rosters or histories of all

the original groups compiled by Norm E., the

recording statistician from the Cleveland

Central Committee in the early 1940's.



- - - -



Message 4543 from "t"

<tcumming@nc.rr.com> (tcumming at nc.rr.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4543



"First 100" [list] has the name

Jane Sturden on it.



- - - -



Message 3132 from <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132



The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA

(in 1935) was the legendary "Lil" of the

"Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob

and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241).

"Lil" reputedly sobered up outside AA. However,

it is said she never got far enough along to

attend a meeting.



"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides

Jane S' relative dry date through old-timer

Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came

into AA in February 1937" (then on pg 122)

"remembered that Jane S was making the

35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in

1937, about the same time he started" [Jane's

trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241

later indicates that Jane was the wife of

a "vice-president of a large steel company."



The key words in her relative dry date are

"about the same time" [relative to February

1937]. I can't find a hard written reference

to confirm it, but sources I trust for

credibility indicate that Jane S stayed sober

for only a few months.



"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it

states "The name 'One Hundred Men' fell by the

wayside because of objections of Florence R,

at that time the only female member." It's odd

that Jane S' name isn't also mentioned as a

female member "at that time." Is it possible

that that she had already fallen off the wagon

and departed?



The edited story section of the Big Book was

completed "in the latter part of January 1939"

(re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of

the manuscript was likely completed in the

latter part of March (the book was published

April 4, 1939).



Florence R, states in her story "... The

drinking ended the morning I got there ..."

["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd

time]. She then later states "That was more

than a year ago." In manuscript versions,

circulating around the internet, the sentence

read "That was several years ago" which is

quite obviously wrong. The key words in her

relative dry date are "more than a year ago"

[but from when?].



So how to do the reckoning to establish female

member primacy? It seems to be a contest

between the precision inherent in the relative

values denoted by "about" or "more than."



Did Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall

on February 1st or 28th (that's almost a

month's difference) or February 14 (to split

the difference)or could late January (31st)

or early March (1st)?



Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year

ago" relative to late January 1939 (when the

edited stories were completed) or mid to late

March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If

it is March 1939, then Jane S may have primacy

(and that is only a "may have"). If "more than"

is relative to January or February 1939 then

Florence R has primacy or perhaps it's a tie.

The problem is does "more than" mean a day, a

week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or

14 months or what?



So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence.

Why? Florence stayed dry for over a year. Jane S

lasted for a few months. If it's mainly about

when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats

them both. If the elapsed time before they

returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then

by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member

of AA and should be a founder.



- - - -



Message 3132 from: "mertonmm3"

<mertonmm3@yahoo.com>

(mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132



Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which

functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman

(Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of

the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became

number 2.



- - - -



Message 3112 from "Sally Brown"

<rev.sally@worldnet.att.net>

(rev.sally at worldnet.att.net)



Still another was Mary Campbell, from somewhere

in the South, I believe. Dave and I don't know

her sobriety date or when she arrived in AA,

but it was before April 1939 when Marty Mann

went from Blythewood to her first AA meeting,

held at the Wilsons' home in Brooklyn. Mary

actually visited Marty at Blythewood. She

relapsed in 1944, then returned to AA and

stayed sober until she died in the 1990s.



- - - -



Message 589 from t <tcumming@airmail.net @nc.rr.com>

(tcumming at nc.rr.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/589



People In AA History - Part 4



I thru M



Jane S. - 1st woman Akron area maintain few

months sobriety, married vice president large

steel company (D 122,241)


0 -1 0 0
4823 Arthur S
Re: First woman in AA? (Florence R vs Jane S) First woman in AA? (Florence R vs Jane S) 1/25/2008 4:45:00 PM


From message # 3132



The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the

legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob

and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered

up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to

attend a meeting.



I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated

with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date

(June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic

City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935).



"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date

through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA

in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making

the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same

time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241

later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large

steel company."



The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time"

[relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to

confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S

stayed sober for only a few months.



"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One

Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R,

at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't

also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that

that she had already fell off the wagon and departed?



The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter

part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of

the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the

book was published April 4, 1939).



Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I

got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She

then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript

versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was

several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in

her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?].



So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It

seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative

values denoted by "about" or "more than."



Is Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th

(that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the

difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)?



Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late

January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late

March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then

Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more

than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has

primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a

day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what?



So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed

dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly

about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the

elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then

by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a

founder.



However, it probably boils down to "truth by choice." In any event the

matter is not by any means certain.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Stonebraker

Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:24 AM

To: AA HistoryLovers; MuncieAA@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First woman in AA?



From Arthur S. and Bob S.



Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),

Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron)



- - - -



David L. asked: A question came up in my group.

Who was the first woman to join AA and when did

she join?



- - - -



From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com)



The first woman member was Florence R

(from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is

"A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the

Washington DC/Baltimore area.



Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a

possible suicide).



Fitz M identified her in the morgue.



Arthur



- - - -



From: "Robert Stonebraker"

<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)



Who was first, Jane or Florence?



Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S.

(Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have

not been able to discover which was first

to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group

as it was then.



This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123

from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers:



Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had

already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent

and Canton, and it was probably early 1937

when a few prospects started drifting down

from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in

twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two

carloads.)



Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the

35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in

1937, about the same time he started. Colorful

and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor,

Jane is said to be the first woman in the

area to have attained any length of sobriety -

meaning a few months.



Oldtimers long remembered her story of being

left unattended by her husband to supervise

the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she

and the paperhanger started drinking. Each

time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or

the other would walk into it. When her husband

came home that evening, both Jane and the

paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by

empty bottles (as her husband told her later)

and all bound up in shredded paper and waste.



- - - -



Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of

1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find,

stayed sober till she died. At any rate,

she was credited having the longest

uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA.



I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From

Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA

at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till

she died (April 1963).



Bob S.











Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4824 Mitchell K.
Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. First woman in AA? Sylvia K. 1/25/2008 7:04:00 PM


Point of information - As far as I know,

Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence

was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting

roster from the original Golrick group along

with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.


0 -1 0 0
4825 Glenn Chesnut
Spiritus contra spiritum in Eastern Orthodox Christianity Spiritus contra spiritum in Eastern Orthodox Christianity 1/26/2008 6:46:00 PM


The Akathist Hymn and the story of the Icon

of the Inexhaustible Cup



Translated by Sister Dorofea (Mirochnitchenko)

and Katherine Szalasznyj



From the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition



http://www.antiochian.org/1103412970



- - - -



From Glenn C., a brief comment:



You can see a photo of the icon which is

described (it is the second one down) at:



http://rusmonastery.org/eng/chasha.html



This is an Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition

which sees in the Holy Mother the revelation

of the feminine aspect of God. She is the

Theotokos, the one through whom God comes to

birth in our souls. She is the Gate of Heaven,

the Bridge to Heaven, and so on, and in this

case, she is the one who extends to us the

sacred chalice from which we can drink the

true healing Spirit, instead of seeking to

drown ourselves in the false spirit of alcohol.



It is very much the same idea that Carl Jung

tried to explain to Rowland Hazard: spiritus

contra spiritum.



Now let us give the traditional story, as it

appears on that web site:



- - - -



A peasant from the Efremovskii district of

Tula province, a retired soldier, was an

alcoholic, and a drunkard. He would drink

away all his pension, everything that he

possessed, anything that could be found in

his house, and eventually he was ruined and

literally became a beggar. From excessive

drinking, his legs became paralysed, but still

he continued drinking.



One day, the man, who seemed to have hit

rock-bottom, had an unusual dream. In it a

venerable old man came to him and said:



"Go to the city of Serpoukhov, to the

monastery of the Theotokos. There you will

find an icon of the Holy Mother called

The Inexhaustible Cup. Have a moleben

[a formal religious service of intercession

or supplication] before it, and you will be

healed, both spiritually and physically."



Without a penny to his name, and having no

use of his legs, the man did not dare to go

on a journey. But the holy man came to him

a second and then a third time, and was so

adamant in his admonition to obey his

instructions, that the poor drunk did not

dare to disobey any more, and he set off as

quickly as he could, dragging himself on all

fours.



In one of the neighbouring villages where he

stopped to rest, an old woman took him in for

the night. To ease his pain, she massaged his

legs, and put him to rest on top of the clay

oven, a customary place for the old or sickly,

because of the warmth. During the night the

travelling man felt a pleasant sensation in

his legs, and discovered that he was able to

stand. On the following nights his legs

became even stronger. And so, first with two

walking-sticks, and then with just one, he

arrived in Serpoukhov.



Once in the monastery, he told about his

visions, and asked to have the moleben served.

But nobody there had ever heard of such an

icon. They started to search for it, and

noticed one that was hanging in the passage

to the sacristy, that bore an image of a

chalice. On the back of it, to their surprise,

was written "The Inexhaustible Cup".



In the icon of St Varlaam, the disciple of

the holy bishop Metropolitan Aleksii, the

man immediately recognised the face of the

holy elder who had appeared to him in his

dreams.



From Serpoukhov the man departed, completely

healed. The news about the miraculous icon

spread quickly through the city, the region,

and all of Rus. Alcoholics (those bound by

the passion of drink) and their families and

friends, were coming to pray before the Mother

of God for healing, and in time many came back

to thank the all-merciful Theotokos for her

speedy help.



Let it be known that this akathist service came

to us in Canada in 1994, and we perceive that

this is God's will and from the compassion of

the Theotokos. In these times there is the

renewal of the Church's life in the lands of

Rus, and the rediscovery of God's mercy and

tender care. This akathist has been redis-

covered and is now frequently served, although

the current service of which we have a photo-

copy was printed in only 4,000 copies. We

pray that by offering these translations many

souls in North America may be healed and saved.



+ + +



KONTAK 1



A wonderful and marvellous healing has been

given to us by your holy icon, O sovereign

Lady Theotokos. By its appearance we have

been delivered from spiritual and physical

ills, and from sorrowful circumstances. So we

bring you our thankful praise, O all-merciful

Protectress. O sovereign Lady, whom we call

"The Inexhaustible Cup": bend down your ear

and mercifully hear our lamentation and tears

that we bring to you, and give your healing to

those who suffer from drunkenness, so that we

may cry out to you with faith: "REJOICE, O

INEXHAUSTIBLE CUP THAT QUENCHES OUR SPIRITUAL

THIRST!"



IKOS 1



Angelic powers and multitudes of saints con-

tinually glorify you, the Theotokos, Queen

of all, the intercessor for us sinful

Christians wallowing in lawlessness and

remaining in sins. It is for our consolation

and salvation that you in your mercy gave us

your miraculous icon, so that looking upon it,

as at the one and only star among a multitude

of stars on a starlit night, we may prostrate

ourselves, shouting from the very depths of

our heart:



REJOICE, dwelling-place of the unapproachable

God.

REJOICE, our constant wonder.

REJOICE, you make our sorrow wipe away our

sins.

REJOICE, you make our grief heal our ills.

REJOICE, through your miraculous icon, you

bring us your heavenly mercy.

REJOICE, O joy of our grieving heart.

REJOICE, our wonderful reconciliation with God.

REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup

that quenches our spiritual thirst!



Etc., etc.



Sent to me by "John Blair"

<jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)


0 -1 0 0
4826 brian thompson
Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. First woman in AA? Sylvia K. 1/26/2008 6:52:00 PM


--- "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

wrote:



> Point of information - As far as I know,

> Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence

> was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting

> roster from the original Golrick group along

> with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.



Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago.

Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date

of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted

her son a few years ago and she died I believe

in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the

first woman to acheve long term sobriety in

AA.



BRIAN T.


0 -1 0 0
4827 Tom Hickcox
Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. First woman in AA? Sylvia K. 1/26/2008 11:02:00 AM


At 18:04 1/25/2008 , Mitchell K. wrote:





>Point of information - As far as I know,

>Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence

>was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting

>roster from the original Golrick group along

>with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.



Her name also appears, with an Evanston,

Illinois address, on the First 226 Members

in Akron list.



I notice on this list, which is available at



http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html



and



http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc



and has an X by her name indicating an early

member. There are thirty-two so indicated,

including the two founders, Earl Treat, J. D.

Holmes, Archie Trowbridge, and Bill Dotson.



There are two women included besides Sylvia;

Roberta Beckwith from Akron and Ruth Tracy

from Maumee, which is near Toledo.



There is no Warren C. on the list, FWIW.



I wonder how these two women factor in

early A.A.?



Tommy


0 -1 0 0
4828 Glenn Chesnut
Re: First women in AA? First women in AA? 1/27/2008 5:49:00 PM


From "Sally Brown" <rev.sally@att.net>

(rev.sally at att.net)



Don't know how far anyone on AAHistoryLovers

wants to take this fine-tooth combing of which

women got sober when and for how long.



However, I haven't seen a reference in the

posts yet to the book "Women Pioneers in 12

Step Recovery," by Charlotte Hunter, Billye

Jones, Joan Zieger (Hazelden, 1999).



This book has sections on Anne Smith,

Henrietta Seiberling, Sister Ignatia, Lois

Wilson, Ruth Hock, Nell Wing, Sybil C., Ester

Elasardi, Eve M., Geraldine Owen D., Nancy

O'D., Marcelene W., Arbutus O'N., Barbara D.,

Dorothy Riggs M., Dr. Joan K. Jackson, Betty

Ford, Mary Jane Hanley, and Marty Mann. There

is also a note referring to other names that

need to be added to a list of this sort: Sylvia

K., Ethyl M., and Geneva V.



Also, Dave and I mention three other women on

p. 127 of the Marty Mann bio - Bobby Burger

(the long-time secy at AA's GSO), Ila Phillips

(a professional dancer in New York), and

Priscilla Peck (the art director of Vogue

Magazine).



And what about Wynn Corum Laws (joined AA in

California in 1947 at the age of 33), whose

story in the Big Book was "Freedom From

Bondage"?



I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number

of additional early AA women who found recovery

in AA in the early-mid 1940s, but are or were

known just to their own communities and

families.



Sometimes I think we may verge on idol (even

"idle"!) worship of sobriety dates. We all

know we're only a drink or a drug away from

disaster. It's only today that matters. I

remember, though, that it's different in

the earlier years of sobriety. "She has

two years? Oh, my God - How can that happen!"

So let me get off my soapbox. Working on a

dual dx unit where there's lots of complicated

relapse sure helps me keep my perspective

- and especially my gratitude.



Thank you again and again and again, all

you loyal, committed AA History Lovers, for

your hard work and careful vetting.



Shalom - Sally


0 -1 0 0
4829 Arthur S
Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. First woman in AA? Sylvia K. 1/26/2008 9:11:00 PM


I've got September 13, 1939 for Sylvia K's

dry date. Wasn't Earl T her sponsor?



Extracts from Nancy O's brief biographies of

story authors state:



For Earl T:



When he slipped he realized that the alcoholic

has to continue to take his own inventory

every day if he expects to get well and stay

well. Soon Dan Craske, MD began referring

prospects to him, and another doctor in

Evanston referred a woman. This was Sylvia K

("The Keys to the Kingdom"). Earl suggested

she go to Akron. There they dried her out and

explained the program to her, after which it

was suggested that she return to Chicago to

work with Earl.



For Sylvia K:



In the 1939 this doctor heard of the book

Alcoholics Anonymous ... he told her of the

handful of people in Akron and New York who

seemed to have worked out a technique for

arresting their alcoholism. He asked her to

read the book and to talk with a man who

experiencing success by using this plan.

This was Earl T ("He Sold Himself Short"),

the "Mr. T" to whom she refers on page 309

(pg 268 in 4th ed) ... Earl suggested she

visit Akron. According to Bill W, she got

off to a slow start there ... Sylvia stayed

two weeks with Clarence S, "The Home

Brewmeister" in Cleveland. She met Dr. Bob,

who brought other AA men to meet her.

Dorothy S (Clarence's wife) said that the

men "were only too willing to talk to her

after they saw her." Sylvia was a glamorous

divorcee, extremely good looking, and rich ....



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----



> Point of information - As far as I know,

> Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence

> was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting

> roster from the original Golrick group along

> with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.



Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago.

Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date

of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted

her son a few years ago and she died I believe

in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the

first woman to acheve long term sobriety in

AA.



BRIAN T.


0 -1 0 0
4830 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/25/2008 4:19:00 PM


From Baileygc23, Jon Markle, and Jenny Andrews



- - - -



FROM: Baileygc23@aol.com

(Baileygc23 at aol.com)



The big book says, this book is meant to be

suggestive, only. Page 164.



- - - -



FROM: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>

(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)



While it is true that the front of the

jacket cover contains that statement, the

inside flap, apparently continues to defer

to the more definitive language thus: "The

basic text, pages I - 164, . . . "



Also, if the jacket cover is removed, which

many people do, do we find that statement

repeated elsewhere in the book? If not, then

how important could this assumption be?



So, perhaps it is simply a matter of

extrapolating what exact meaning these two

instances hold for us. If any.



I like the inclusion of Bill Wilson's statement

on the inside flap. However that cannot be

brought forward to today's Book, because the

stories are not the same. His observations can

only be applied to the book at the time of his

writing that letter. We can only assume that

idea might also apply to the current edition.



Of course . . . I don't look at the book as

a sacred work, so it doesn't make so much

difference to me. Except as it's an inter-

esting observation.



All good text books are revised from time to

time. Good information and instruction never

remains stagnant.



Hugs for the trudge.



Jon (Raleigh)

9/9/82



- - - -



From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



"I would imagine Bill is intending to instruct

the Fellowship..." I doubt it. Bill was always

careful not to instruct ("Our book is meant

to be suggestive only.") The various AA texts

can be compared to a signpost, which gives

neutral directions - not instructions. When

Winston Churchill was Prime Minister he asked

his Education Secretary Rab Butler what could

be done to make children more patriotic. "Tell

them Wolfe won Quebec," he mused. Butler

replied, "I would like to influence what was

taught in schools but this was always frowned

on." "Of course," Churchill rejoined, "not

by instruction or order but by suggestion."


0 -1 0 0
4831 Danny Graham
Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 1/28/2008 12:52:00 PM


I am doing some research on Sybil C. from

Los Angeles and her brother Tex. Does anyone

have a copy of the letter Sybil wrote to

Bill W. following Tex's death in 1958? I have

a copy of Bill's response, but am looking for

the first letter.



- - - -



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html



Sybil C.

The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi

by Nancy O.



Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A.

west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety

was March 23, 1941. Her name at the time was

Sybil Maxwell, though she later opened her

talks by saying, "My name is Sybil Doris Adams

Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis C., and I'm an

alcoholic."



She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908,

in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her

parents were poor but hardworking and she had

a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman

was called "Tex." Sybil adored her big brother.

She remembered that when she was five and he

fifteen, he would hold her and rock her to

sleep.



Tex joined the Army during World War I, was

reported missing in action, and when the family

heard nothing further they assumed he was dead.

However, when Sybil was thirteen they learned

that he was alive and living in Los Angeles.

The family immediately moved to California.



Sybil felt like a misfit in Los Angeles. She

affected the flapper makeup popular at the

time: heavy white powder on her face, and two

big red spots of rouge on her cheeks and lots

of lipstick and black eyebrows.



"I must have looked like a circus freak or

something like that," she wailed. "I was in

eighth grade out there in Los Angeles, and

the other kids laughed at me. I had trouble

making friends, being shy and timid by nature,

but also my papa wouldn't let boys even walk

home with me, let alone go to parties. I just

wasn't allowed to do anything, and I knew I

didn't belong anywhere."



"So naturally I started drinking at a very

early age, against my better judgment, full

of shame and remorse because of Papa's

teachings. He was a good man. When I was

fifteen, I got drunk one night, passed out,

and had to be carried home and put to bed in

my mother's bed. I cried the next day and

promised that it would never happen again --

and I meant it. But I didn't know myself, I

didn't know the disease of alcoholism. The

next Saturday night the kids handed me a

bottle and I drank it. And I continued to do

that through a couple of semesters of high

school, and I stayed drunk through seventeen

years of failed marriages and more jobs than

I can count."



Sybil dropped out of high school and took a

secretarial course and was hired as a secretary.

It was the first in a long list of jobs. At

various times she was a real estate broker,

a taxi driver, a bootlegger, an itinerant farm

worker, the editor of a magazine for pet

owners, and a salesperson. 'I didn't mind

working," she said, "but I never seemed to

get anywhere. I was just on a treadmill because

of booze."



She had a child by her first husband, a sailor.

She thought having the child would prevent

her drinking, but she drank more than ever, and

her parents eventually took the child from

her.



She and her husband hitchhiked out of town to

find grape picking jobs. They thought getting

away from their city friends would help them

quit drinking, but she soon was drunk again.

During one of her drunks she heard music. At

first she thought she was hallucinating, but

she followed the sound and wandered into a

tent where a revival meeting was in progress.

The preacher asked for anyone to come forward

who wanted to be saved.



"Well, that was me," Sybil told A.A. members.

"I went all the way down while the people were

singing. The preacher put his hand out and

placed it on my head, and I threw up all over

him. It was so terrible! I was so ashamed, I

couldn't bring myself to tell anyone about

it until I got into Alcoholics Anonymous eleven

years later."



She left her sailor husband and hitchhiked back

to Los Angeles to her mother's house. Her

brother, Tex, now had a speakeasy on skid row,

and to make money to take to her mother to

support the child, she went into the boot-

legging business with him. Eventually the

speakeasy was raided and they were out of

business. Then she went to work in a taxi-dance

hall.



Little is known of her second husband, but she

met her third husband, Dick Maxwell, while

working in the taxi-dance hall. One night a

rich, handsome stranger walked in and bought

dance tickets with Sybil for the whole night.

During intermission he bought several pitchers

of beer (the girls got a dollar for every

pitcher their partner bought), and she told

him her sad story. He offered to marry her and

adopt her child if she would promise not to

drink any more.



Now she had a wonderful husband, a home, a

housekeeper, and a car. But she couldn't

stop drinking.



In 1939, while visiting her mother, she read

the Liberty magazine article called "Alcoholics

and God." She thought the story fascinating

but did nothing about it and her downward

spiral continued.



Eighteen months later God gave her another

chance, when she read the Saturday Evening

Post's March 1, 1941 issue which contained the

famous Jack Alexander article about A.A.. She

wrote to New York and received a reply from

Ruth Hock, then Bill Wilson's secretary, who

told her that there were no women members in

California, but that Marty Mann was sober in

New York. Ruth referred her to the small group

of men then in the area.



On Friday, March 23, Sybil's nonalcoholic

husband, Dick Maxwell, drove her to the

meeting. They found ten or twelve men seated

around a table and three or four women seated

against the wall. When the chairman began the

meeting he announced "As is our custom before

the regular meeting starts, we have to ask the

women to leave." Sybil left with the other

women but her husband stayed and the members

assumed he was the alcoholic. When he rejoined

Sybil he said "They don't know you're alive.

They just went on and on bragging about their

drinking until I was about to walk out, when

they jumped up and said the Lord's Prayer,

and here I am." Sybil headed for the nearest

bar and got drunk.



But she remembered that Ruth Hock had written,

"If you need help, call Cliff W." and had

given her his phone number. He explained:

"You didn't tell us you were an alcoholic. We

thought you were one of the wives. If you

had identified yourself as an alcoholic,

you would have been welcome as the flowers

in May."



When she returned the following week, Frank R.

brought in a large carton full of letters

bundled into bunches of twenty to fifty. He

explained that they were all inquiries and

calls for help from people in southern Cali-

fornia. "Here they are! Here they are! If any

of you jokers have been sober over fifteen

minutes, come on up here and get these

letters. We've got to get as many of these

drunks as we can in here by next Friday, or

they may die."



The last bundle was of letters from women.

Frank said: "Sybil Maxwell, come on up. I am

going to put you in charge of all the women."



Sybil liked the idea of "being in charge" but

replied, "I can't, sir. You said I have to

make all those calls by next Friday, or

somebody might die. Well, I'll be drunk by

next Friday unless you have some magic that

will change everything so I can stay sober."



Frank explained that everything she needed to

know was in the Big Book. "And it says right

in here that when all other measures fail,

working with another alcoholic will save the

day. That's what you will be doing, Sybil,

working with other alcoholics. You just get

in your car and take your mind off yourself.

Think about someone sicker than you are. Go

see her and hand her the letter she wrote,

and say: 'I wrote one like this last week,

and they answered mine and told me to come

and see you. If you have a drinking problem

like I have, and if you want to get sober as

bad as I do, you come with me and we'll find

out together how to do it.' Don't add another

word to that, because you don't know anything

yet. Just go get 'em."



It worked, and she never had another drink.



When Bill and Lois Wilson made their first

visit to Los Angeles in 1943, Sybil was one

of the delegation of local A.A.'s who met

them at the Town House hotel. Later she met

Marty Mann.



But Dick Maxwell began to feel abandoned and

lonely. He urged her to cut down on her A.A.

activities so that they could have more of a

home life. He had grown to hate A.A. and

refused to read the Big Book or discuss the

Twelve Steps. Finally he suggested that the

solution to their marriage problems was for

her to go back to drinking and he would take

care of her.



Sybil quickly packed a bag and left. She left

her lovely home and rented a housekeeping room

with a gas hotplate and a bath down the hall

for nine dollars a week and went to work for

the L.A. Times to support herself. "A.A. just

had to come first with me," she explained.



Her brother, Tex, joined the week after she

did. He started the second A.A. group in the

area, and appointed Sybil coffeemaker and

greeter for the new group, and finally made

her deliver her first shaky talk.



When Tex died in 1952, Sybil was devastated.

She wrote Bill Wilson, pouring out her grief

and asked, "What am I going to do, Bill?

I don't crave a drink, but I think I'm going

to die unless I get some answers." She said

Bill's answer saved her life. He wrote:

____________________



November 6, 1952



My dear Sybil,



Thanks for your letter of October 21st - it

was just about the most stirring thing I have

read in many a day. The real test of our way

of life is how it works when the chips are

down. Though I've sometimes seen A.A.s make

rather a mess of living, I've never seen a

sober one make a bad job of dying.



But the account you give me of Tex's last days

is something I shall treasure always. I hope

I can do half as well when my time comes. I am

one who believes that in my Father's house

are many mansions. If that were not so there

couldn't be any justice. I can almost see Tex

sitting on the front porch of one, right now,

talking in the sunlight with others of God's

ladies and gentlemen who have gone on before.

I certainly agree with you that little was

left in Tex's grave. All he had was left

behind in the hearts of the rest of us and

he carried just that same amount forward to

where he is now. If you like what I've said,

please read it to the Huntington Park Group.

In any case, congratulate them for me that

they had the privilege of knowing a guy like

Tex.



As for you, my dear, there is no need to give

you advice. How well you understand that the

demonstration is the thing, after all. It

isn't so much a question of whether we have

a good time or a bad time. The only thing that

will be asked is what we do with the

experience we have. That you are doing well

with our tough lot is something for which I

and many others are bound to be grateful. This

is but a long day in school. Some of the

lessons are hard and others are easy. I know

you will keep on learning and passing what

you learned. What more does one person need

to know about another!



Affectionately yours,

/s/ Bill

WGW/nw



Sybil Willis

2874A Randolph

Huntington Park, California

____________________



The letter touched Sybil so deeply she gave

many copies to people who were at a low point

in life, and a few years ago someone I met at

an on-line meeting sent a copy to me.



At the time of the letter, she was married

to Jim Willis, the founder of Gamblers'

Anonymous.



Sybil is perhaps best remembered as the first

executive secretary of the Los Angeles Central

office of A.A., a position she held for twelve

years. This was a turbulent time for A.A., with

much disunity and controversy within the groups

that led to the Twelve Traditions. Sybil

remembered that the groups regarded them

either with opposition or indifference and

the Central Office couldn't sell many copies

of the Traditions pamphlet.



Understandably, since Sybil began doing Twelfth

Step work immediately, she took a dim view of

the rigidity that crept into the requirements.

Some areas required six months or even a year

of sobriety before one was allowed to call on

new prospects. She advised "If you don't get

prospects from the Central Office, look around

the meeting rooms. There is always the forgotten

man or woman, nervous and scared, who would

love to have you come up and shake hands. Just

feel what the new person is feeling. It kept

me sober, it kept my brother Tex sober, and

it will keep you sober when all other measures

fail."



Her fifth and enduring marriage was to another

A.A. member, Bob C. He has been described a

"a high-spirited, warm, and loving man,

fourteen years her junior in age and twenty-two

years her junior in sobriety."



"Bob and I are very happy," Sybil declared.

"This has been the best years of my life."

They were both enthusiastic meeting-goers and

enjoyed an incredibly wide circle of A.A.

friends.



Sybil was honored at the International A.A.

Convention in Montreal in 1985. She was then

the longest-sober living woman in A.A. When

she was introduced to the 50,000 attendees

from fifty-three countries, she told the

colorful story of A.A.'s beginning in Los

Angeles, in which she had played such a vital

role. When she finished her talk, the audience

rose to its feet as one and gave her a standing

ovation which continued so long that some

thought it would never stop.



Sybil died in 1988.



[From Harry V., Los Angeles Archivist, Sybil

died in late April 1988, and the A.A.

Memorial Service for Sybil was held June 5th,

1988. Her Memorial service kept getting

postponed due to A.A. conference dates already

on the schedule. It was a two hour plus long

A.A. Memorial.]



Sources:



"Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery," by



Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, Joan Zieger.

"Gratefull to Have Been There," by Nell Wing.



Various tapes of Sybil's talks.


0 -1 0 0
4832 Charlie C
WorldCat.org, a research aid... WorldCat.org, a research aid... 1/29/2008 9:34:00 PM


Hi, I'm a reference librarian, and it

occured to me that maybe some of you AA

History researchers might find



http://WorldCat.org



of interest. This is the public, free

version of a longstanding library resource,

also called WorldCat. Basically WorldCat is a

massive (really massive, as in millions of

items) collection of library catalog records

from libraries across the U.S. and some other

locations.



So what does that do for you? Let's say

you want to read more about someone like Emmet

Fox, or a movement like the Oxford groups. You

look in your local library system catalog and

maybe don't find much. What to do? Is that all

there is?



Maybe, but maybe not. Try WorldCat.org.

It will give you an idea of what is really "out

there" in libraries. It will also, once you

have a list of results, help you to see which

libraries in your region have the item.



Please note that not all libraries are

open to one and all to come check books out.

It is best to contact a library first before

you go there. WorldCat helpfully provides

contact info and web site links to its member

libraries, which is pretty much everyone.



Or, you can ask your local library to get

the book for you through "inter-library loan."

This handy system enables a library in one

place to search for and have sent to it books

from other libraries in the, yes, the WorldCat

system.



Not all items you may see in WorldCat will

necessarily be available - some may be rare and

the holding library won't send it, or out of

state and your local library won't get items

from out of state.... Local policies vary, and

some public libraries need to charge at least

a token fee to recoup some of their costs,

although it usually is a mere token, and some

libraries do not charge at all.



Have fun and do support your local library!





Charlie C.

IM, Yahoo = route20guy



"So settle down and quit your traveling ways.,

'cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days...".

(Kitty Wells, Make Up Your Mind)


0 -1 0 0
4833 CloydG
Who can change the text of the BB and how? Who can change the text of the BB and how? 1/28/2008 1:24:00 PM


I've heard that GSO provides a board of

alcoholic and non alcoholic trustees that

are entrusted to preserve the original text

"forever" as it was originally written.

Is that true? If not, what would it take to

change it? I'm not interested in a debate,

only historical guidelines that the founders

provided for the fellowship.



Clyde G.

01/03/95


0 -1 0 0
4834 chesbayman56
Significant February Dates in A.A. History Significant February Dates in A.A. History 1/31/2008 3:26:00 PM


Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang.

Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill & sophomore class

suspended

Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from

professionalization.

Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use

in his practice.

Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts"

for "we ought" in the Big Book.

Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC.

Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in

pamphlet form for many years.

Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA.

Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is

published.

Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get

married.

Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner.

Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA

by Larry J.

Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died.

Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank

P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this

as happening Feb 13, 1937

Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition)

sobriety date.

Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W.

Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem,

NC.

Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was

born.

Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA

group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members.

Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two

years before, at a New York AA meeting.

Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the

right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases.

Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA

dies.

Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on

AA by Seymour Rothman.

Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to

tape the Big Book.

Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held

at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street.


0 -1 0 0
4835 momaria33772
March of Times 1946 news clips about AA March of Times 1946 news clips about AA 1/31/2008 11:21:00 AM


I just received these today. I found them

delightful, the March of Time played at ALL

the American movie theaters.



This is an example of the great Public Informa-

tion that took place in the '40s.



(You may have to cut and

paste into your browser.)



These are Five AA archival newscasts from Time.



For a delightful glimpse into AA's past,

please follow the links below.



http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\

_015&flash=6




http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\

_025&flash=6




http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\

_016&flash=6




http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\

_017&flash=6




http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\

_026&flash=6




- - - -



From the moderator:



The last one (number five) has a nice

section showing a young Marty Mann

speaking to an audience. She was able to

communicate effectively with any kind of

audience whatsoever, and get them on her

side.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
4836 Jim Hoffman
RE: Who can change the text of the BB and how? Who can change the text of the BB and how? 1/30/2008 4:27:00 PM


The annual Conference has passed Advisory

Actions meant to protect the Doctor’s Opinion,

the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob’s story from

change without the written consent of three

quarters of all registered groups.



Advisory Actions have also extended this

protection to the Twelve Traditions and the

Twelve Concepts.



This means that more than 2/3 of the

Delegates at the Conference approved those

Advisory Actions.



As the Conference Charter states Advisory

Actions have no force of law. In other words,

the Trustees have every legal right to ignore

those directives. However, we have a history

of honoring the substantially unanimous

conscience of the fellowship as expressed

by the Delegates through the Conference.



As a result the Trustees have never acted

in opposition to any Advisory Action. In

fact, they will honor actions approved by

a strong majority that does not quite reach

the 2/3 level.



- - - -



That does not mean the Big Book has not changed

over the years. There is an original manuscript

that you will frequently see at Conferences,

Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will

hear its version of “How It Works” at such an

event because it is different from the version

that was eventually published. That manuscript

was changed by revue of the fellowship that

resulted in rewrite by Bill.



- - - -



There are also changes over the years to the

originally published version. Dr. Silkworth’s

name did not appear with his letter in early

printings. The Doctor’s Opinion used to be on

Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section

and Bill’s Story is on Page 1.



Numeric references were also changed in

various printings. The one that struck me

first when I was newly reading the book was

the reference to “Here are thousands of men

and women” in the chapter, We Agnostics. I

wondered how that could be when there were

only a hundred when the book was written.

The answer was that these kinds of references

were updated over the several printings.

However, the basic ideas and word of the

basic text have not been changed.



- - - -



To see how strong the feeling against change

is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition.

When the first printing came out, there were

some editorial changes made to DR. Bob’s story.

These were strictly grammar and punctuation

changes but they elicited tremendous reaction

within the fellowship. An item was submitted

and accepted for the following year’s Confer-

ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that

the story had been changed without the written

approval of three fourths of the registered

groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted

to reverse the changes.



- - - -



So, the way you would change any of these

items, you would have to submit the change to

be considered as an Agenda item for the

following Conference. It would have to be

accepted and added to the Conference. An

individual could submit it but it might have

a better chance of acceptance if it went

through your Delegate Area and the Area and

Delegate submitted letters of support. If it

made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have

to approve sending it to the registered groups

seeking their approval. If three fourths

approved then the change would be made.



- - - -



If there are other ways to get it to the groups

for approval, I’m not aware of them. Perhaps

some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in.

In either case, you would still need the group

approval. So as you can see there is a way

but the practicality of it happening is

“remote” at best. I would say it is probably

“nil”.



Jim Hoffman


0 -1 0 0
4837 flat412acrehouse
Original AA Members Original AA Members 1/29/2008 10:11:00 PM


I read message #4543 referring to the first

100 AA members, and also looked at the list

of the first 226 Akron members at



http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html



I and my group wished to know if any of

these AA members (on either list) are still

alive today.



Thanking you kindly

gentle blessings

leah


0 -1 0 0
4838 Tom Hickcox
Re: March of Times 1946 news clips about AA March of Times 1946 news clips about AA 1/31/2008 8:39:00 PM


At 10:21 1/31/2008 , you wrote:



> >From the moderator:

>

>The last one (number five) has a nice

>section showing a young Marty Mann

>speaking to an audience. She was able to

>communicate effectively with any kind of

>audience whatsoever, and get them on her

>side.

>

>Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)





My wife Jean and I watched these. She is a

nurse who practiced in the Metropolitan

New York City area as well as Long Island

for over 35 years.



She recognized the Freeport Hospital in

the last clip and says that was where

Dr. Thibault had a lot of his patients.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4839 Arthur S
Re: Who can change the text of the BB and how? Who can change the text of the BB and how? 1/31/2008 9:37:00 PM


Hi Jim



Your statement is not correct. You also

seem to be getting context a bit scrambled

regarding the relationship between the Board

and Conference.



A 1976 Conference advisory action expanded the

provisions of Article 3 of the Conference

Charter. It specified that any change to the

Steps, Traditions or Six Warranties of Article

12 of the Conference Charter, would require

written approval of 75% of the registered

AA Groups known to General Service Offices

around the world. This Conference advisory

action effectively makes any proposed change

to the Steps, Traditions and Warranties a

virtual impossibility (even so much as adding

or removing a comma). The 12 Concepts are not

included in this (other than for Concept 12

which is also Article 12 of the Conference

Charter - aka the six "Warrantees").



The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much

"protected" from change by the prevailing

sentiment of the members of the AA Fellowship

as a whole. Changes to the Big Book can be

accomplished by Conference advisory action.

However, I doubt that they would get very far

in reality. Several Conference advisory actions

related to the development of the 4th edition

Big Book specified that no changes were to be

made to the forewords, basic text, appendices

and "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain

as is." This pretty much represents the ongoing

sentiment of the AA membership that emerged

with 2nd edition Big Book (1955).



In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were

made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." It subsequently

was interpreted that the Trustee's Literature

Committee was non-responsive to several

Conference's advisory actions that the story

"remain as is." My own take on it is that it

was likely an honest mistake because there were

so many Conference advisory actions passed on

the matter.



In two of the advisory actions, the Conference

authorized the literature committee to make

punctuation changes if they were done to

correct errors. It could very easily be

interpreted to include all the "remain as is"

sections. On the other hand, it can very

easily be interpreted that "remain as is"

means "remain as is."



The 2003 Conference allowed the changes to

stand. The 2004 Conference passed an advisory

action to restore the original punctuation.



The Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for

World Service provide the guidelines for the

context of the relationship between the Board

and the Conference.



Article 4 of the Current Conference Charter

reads:



4. Conference Relation to the General Service

Board and its Corporate Services: The Conf-

erence will replace the founders of Alcoholics

Anonymous, who formerly functioned as guides

and advisers to the General Service Board

and its related service corporations. The

Conference will be expected to afford a

reliable cross section of A.A. opinion for

this purpose.



A quorum shall consist of two-thirds of all

the Conference members registered.



It will be understood, as a matter of tradi-

tion, that a two-thirds vote of Conference

members voting shall be considered binding

upon the General Service Board and its related

corporate services, provided the total vote

constitutes at least a Conference quorum. But

no such vote ought to impair the legal rights

of the General Service Board and the service

corporations to conduct routine business and

make ordinary contracts relating thereto.



It will be further understood, regardless of

the legal prerogatives of the General Service

Board, as a matter of tradition, that a

three-quarters vote of all Conference members

may bring about a reorganization of the

General Service Board and the directors and

staff members of its corporate services, if or

when such reorganization is deemed essential.



Under such a proceeding, the Conference may

request resignations, may nominate new

trustees, and may make all other necessary

arrangements regardless of the legal preroga-

tives of the General Service Board.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hoffman

Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:27 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Who can change the text of the BB and how?



The annual Conference has passed Advisory

Actions meant to protect the Doctor's Opinion,

the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob's story from

change without the written consent of three

quarters of all registered groups.



Advisory Actions have also extended this

protection to the Twelve Traditions and the

Twelve Concepts.



This means that more than 2/3 of the

Delegates at the Conference approved those

Advisory Actions.



As the Conference Charter states Advisory

Actions have no force of law. In other words,

the Trustees have every legal right to ignore

those directives. However, we have a history

of honoring the substantially unanimous

conscience of the fellowship as expressed

by the Delegates through the Conference.



As a result the Trustees have never acted

in opposition to any Advisory Action. In

fact, they will honor actions approved by

a strong majority that does not quite reach

the 2/3 level.



- - - -



That does not mean the Big Book has not changed

over the years. There is an original manuscript

that you will frequently see at Conferences,

Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will

hear its version of "How It Works" at such an

event because it is different from the version

that was eventually published. That manuscript

was changed by revue of the fellowship that

resulted in rewrite by Bill.



- - - -



There are also changes over the years to the

originally published version. Dr. Silkworth's

name did not appear with his letter in early

printings. The Doctor's Opinion used to be on

Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section

and Bill's Story is on Page 1.



Numeric references were also changed in

various printings. The one that struck me

first when I was newly reading the book was

the reference to "Here are thousands of men

and women" in the chapter, We Agnostics. I

wondered how that could be when there were

only a hundred when the book was written.

The answer was that these kinds of references

were updated over the several printings.

However, the basic ideas and word of the

basic text have not been changed.



- - - -



To see how strong the feeling against change

is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition.

When the first printing came out, there were

some editorial changes made to DR. Bob's story.

These were strictly grammar and punctuation

changes but they elicited tremendous reaction

within the fellowship. An item was submitted

and accepted for the following year's Confer-

ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that

the story had been changed without the written

approval of three fourths of the registered

groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted

to reverse the changes.



- - - -



So, the way you would change any of these

items, you would have to submit the change to

be considered as an Agenda item for the

following Conference. It would have to be

accepted and added to the Conference. An

individual could submit it but it might have

a better chance of acceptance if it went

through your Delegate Area and the Area and

Delegate submitted letters of support. If it

made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have

to approve sending it to the registered groups

seeking their approval. If three fourths

approved then the change would be made.



- - - -



If there are other ways to get it to the groups

for approval, I'm not aware of them. Perhaps

some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in.

In either case, you would still need the group

approval. So as you can see there is a way

but the practicality of it happening is

"remote" at best. I would say it is probably

"nil".



Jim Hoffman


0 -1 0 0
4840 Robyn Mitchell
Big Book font and Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile Big Book font and Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile 1/31/2008 9:11:00 PM


Does anybody know what fonts have been used

in the various editions of the Big Book and

the Twelve and Twelve? The fonts on the cover

of the 12x12 are different from the actual

text.



Secondly, I once saw a picture of Dr. Bob in

the Buick he bought in the year or so before

he died, I didn't mark the site, does anyone

know where I might find the image again?



Thanks muchly,

Robyn


0 -1 0 0
4841 Cindy Miller
Re: Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile 1/31/2008 10:33:00 PM


Photo of Dr. Bob with his Buick in "Dr. Bob

and The Good Oldtimers," page 335.



Best,

Cindy Miller



- - - -



Also from:



"Bruce C." <brucecl2002@yahoo.com>

(brucecl2002 at yahoo.com)



"Jay Pees" <racewayjay@atlanticbb.net>

(racewayjay at atlanticbb.net)



"tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com>

(tomper99 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4842 Sober186@aol.com
Basic Text Basic Text 1/31/2008 4:50:00 PM


To me, it appears as if Bill W. was thinking

of the Book Alcoholics Anonymous as a text

book even before it was completely written.



In the A.A. Service Manual, Bill discusses

his creation of the book. He states that at

one point consideration was given to getting

an advance from Harpers. At this point there

were only two chapters completed.



On page S4 of the A.A. Service Manual, Bill

writes:



"There was another problem too, and a serious

one. If our A. A. book became the basic text

for Alcoholics Anonymous, its ownership would

be in other hands. It was evident that our

society ought to own and publish its own

literature."



Jim L.


0 -1 0 0
4843 Debi Ubernosky
Re: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/2/2008 5:53:00 PM


Howdy AA History Lovers,



I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's

supposed hometown of Simians, Texas.



(I'm a Texan!)



I've never heard of this town, and a Google

search does not return anything about it, nor

is there any reference to it on the State of

Texas website or the Texas Historical Society

website.



Here's another site I checked:



http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/tx/cities.htm.



So I'm wondering if there is something that

documents where Sybil was from, or whether

this is a misspelling, or something else that

could clear this up.



Thanks,



Debi



- - - -



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html



Sybil C.

The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi

by Nancy O.



Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A.

west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety

was March 23, 1941 ....



She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908,

in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her

parents were poor but hardworking and she had

a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman

was called "Tex" ....


0 -1 0 0
4844 terry walton
Who was Betty Love? Who was Betty Love? 2/3/2008 3:00:00 AM


In "The Soul of Sponsorship" by Robert

Fitzgerald, S.J., page 56, in a letter

written by Bill Wilson to Father Ed,

he wrote:



"We'd very much like your criticisms of the

material enclosed. Do we run across the grain

of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the

writing style and is the structural situation

depicted in conformity with your observations

of AA?"



Bill also mentioned he had good help from some

other writers: Tom Powers, Betty Love and Jack

Alexander.



My question is, who was Betty Love?



I have found zero hits on the name Betty Love

on this history site.



Thank you,



Terry



P.S. On the same page Bill wrote this for a

motive behind the writing of the 12x12. He

used the word "bait."



Letter from Bill W to Father Ed (page 56

same book):



"If we are able to do a fair job on the steps,

that will be helpful and, published along with

the traditions, they may act as a bait for

reading the latter. However we'll see."


0 -1 0 0
4845 Jay Lawyer
Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 2/3/2008 6:21:00 PM


I just received this. Thought it was inter-

esting. This is a good example of why the

12 Traditions were necessary.



- - - -



Patti <paks68@optonline.net>

(paks68 at optonline.net) wrote:



Here is the story about Irma Livoni that some

of you asked about. Each year around this time

I try to tell this true story about what

happened not just on Dec 7th 1941 (Pearl

Harbor Day) but what happened to one of the

few women who was in AA at that time, and about

a letter she received in the mail, on Monday,

December 8th, which virtually kicked her out

of AA. This is a long email, so read it

when/if you have the time.



In Dec of 1984, I had been sober for 2-1/2

years, and working with my sponsors Bob and

Sybil Corwin since Jan of 84. Sybil had

gotten sober in March of 1941, so at the time

she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home

from a meeting and she asked me the date

(to her it was just Sunday). I told her it

was Dec 8th, and that yesterday (Dec 7th) was

the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day.



She said "Matt, have I ever told you about

Irma Livoni?"



"Nope, who is she?"



She said, "Well, when we get back to the

house, come in for coffee and I’ll tell you

a story about AA history and some of the

reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the

way Matt, did you know that the literature

specifically protects 'queers, plain crackpots,

and fallen women,' and since you and I are at

least two out of those three, we should be

especially grateful for tradition 3? I'll

show you it when we get home."



I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense

of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer,

back before she got sober, you know one of

those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was

divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well

as an alcoholic back then, so the term "fallen

woman" was something that hit close to home.



She had told me that it was very different

back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be

an alcoholic. Sybil said It was a time when

women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable

women" were not usually found in a bar, or

at "whoopie parties."



Our Thursday night step study had voted to

not cover the traditions after we got to

step 12, so I figured they must not be very

important and thought I’d probably be bored

with the conversation, but she got my attention

telling me that "queers, crackpots and fallen

women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in

for coffee.



Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I

had been alive. I didn't argue with her very

much.



Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She

said, I want you to find the traditions in

there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st

edition Big Book. Thicker than mine.



I said, "Is this why they call it the Big

Book?"



She said, "exactly, Bill had it printed on

big paper, with big margins around the type,

so that people would think they were really

getting something for their money."



I looked in the back of the book, where I

thought the traditions were, but couldn't

find them. "I can’t find them, Sybil."



"Exactly. That's because we didn't have any

traditions back in 1941 when I came in. And

Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying

itself, which is why we have traditions now."

Then she had me find them in my 3rd edition

and in my 12 & 12. I didn't read it all,

just the caption heading, and then she started

telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI.



Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also

became a member in 1941, just after Sybil.

Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me

that many people's bottoms were very low then,

no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing).

Sybil said it was different then for a woman

to be an alcoholic. That most of them had

burned all their bridges with their families,

and were looked down upon, even more so than

male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA

help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get

cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first

job in sobriety, and watched AA help Irma get

her first apartment in sobriety.



Then she said that on Dec 5th, 1941 a self-

appointed group of the members signed a letter

to Irma & mailed it 2 days before Pearl Harbor,

on that Friday, Dec 5th. Here is a copy of

the letter:



-------------------------



ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

Post Office Box 607

Hollywood Station

Hollywood, California



December Fifth 1941



Irma Livoni

939 S. Gramercy Place

Los Angeles, California



Dear Mrs. Livoni:



At a meeting of the Executive Committee of the

Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous,

held Dec. 4th, 1941, it was decided that your

attendance at group meetings was no longer

desired until certain explanations and plans

for the future were made to the satisfaction

of this committee. This action has been taken

for reasons which should be most apparent to

yourself. It was decided that, should you so

desire, you may appear before members of this

committee and state your attitude. This oppor-

tunity will be afforded you between now and

December 15th, 1941. You may communicate with

us at the above address by that date.



In case you do not wish to appear, we shall

consider the matter closed and that your

membership is terminated.



Alcoholics Anonymous, Los Angeles Group

Mortimer, Frank, Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al



-------------------------



I was stunned. "How could they do this,

Sybil?"



"Because we didn't have any guidelines,

any traditions to protect us from good

intentions. AA was very new, and people

did all sorts of things, thinking they were

protecting the fellowship."



Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine

my being in the following setting. Sybil

explained that Dec 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor

Day (a Sunday). She said that that Sunday

night everyone in LA was afraid that Los

Angeles would also be attacked and bombed.

There was a citywide blackout, people were so

terrified. She said that on Monday Dec 8th,

President Rosevelt gave the speech that

talked about "the date that will live in

infamy" and that we were now at war with

Japan and Germany.



She said, that was the day that Irma

received her letter. There was only one

meeting in the entire state of California

when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December

there may have been two or three, but Irma

had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn

to. No other Group in California that she

could ask for help.



Sybil said, "Imagine only one or two meetings

in your entire state, and being shunned by

your family, and by society, and by the

only group of people who were on your side,

your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door

on you and sending you such a letter, Matt."



I shivered at the thought of it. It was

Christmas time, the stores were decorated

and now poor Irma was all alone.



I thought about how it was in 1984 with

2000 meetings a week to choose from in

Southern California. and then I imagined

having no other help for a hopeless

alcoholic.



Sybil told me that Irma never came back to

another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism.

She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I

cannot tell you that this is the reason that

the following is a part of the 3rd Tradition,

but it certainly seems to apply.



From Tradition 3, page 141:



-------------------------



... that we would neither punish nor deprive

any AA of membership, that we must never

compel anyone to pay anything, believe

anything, or conform to anything? The answer,

now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity

itself. At last experience taught us that to

take away any alcoholic's full chance was

sometimes to pronounce his death sentence,

and often to condem him to endless misery.

Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner

of his own sick brother?"



-------------------------



JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER



I remember looking at those words again and

again, and they seemed to get larger and

larger.



JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER



JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER



JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER



I hadn't really noticed EXECUTIONER when I

had read it the first time at my 12 & 12

study group. Again I felt so bad for this

poor lady. Wow, those words really had a

different meaning than when I had read the

traditions before. So here it is, 23 years

later, and each December 7th & 8th, I always

think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am,

that we have traditions now. I also think of

how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so

lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor.



Years later I realized how everything she ever

taught me was like gold. But in 1984 I had no

idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was

to have her as my sponsor. She was like a

piece of living history, but I really didn't

realize how valuable that was in explaining

WHY we do some of the things we do (like the

story she told me about how they never said

"Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is

Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then).



Besides being one of the first women in AA,

Sybil was the first woman west of the Nissis-

sippi. She also became the head of LA's

central office for 12 years, and she became

close friends with Bill and Lois. She and

Bob even used to go on vacation with them.

She used to tell me all sorts of stories

about Bill Wilson and things he said to her.



He was very interested in how AA would work

for women, as there were very few women

worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Mann

came in before Sybil did, but very few

stayed sober.



I learned that night that no one can get kicked

out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk

that he needs to settle down or we might have

to ask him to step outside for that day, but

we don't vote to kick anyone out forever. And

we don't shun people because our guidelines,

our traditions tell us that no one has to

believe in anything (they don't have to be

like me) and they don't have to conform to

anything(they don't have to dress a certain

way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything).

Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome

at any AA meeting.



So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel

free to pass this along to anyone you know

who might be interested in knowing a bit about

how and why the traditions got started. I

think it sort of puts a face on tradition 3:

the face of a woman I never knew, who got

kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died.



Thank God for Tradition 3, and thank God for

all of you. I truly appreciate and cherish

all the people in this group.



Best AA love to you all.





"God hasn't promised us tomorrow,

but he has promised us eternity."


0 -1 0 0
4846 Chris Budnick
RE: Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 2/4/2008 7:30:00 PM


This is wonderful. I had seen this letter

while touring the Akron Intergroup but couldn't

remember the woman's name or the exact wording

of the letter. I remember thinking how

foreign of a concept that someone could be

kicked out of AA. It helped put into context

my short years of recovery with what it was

like for members such as Irma before there

were the Traditions.



(1) Does anyone have information on why they

wrote: "This action has been taken for reasons

which should be most apparent to yourself."



(2) Does anyone know more specifics about

Irma - when she died etc.



(3) Also, is there any information about the

members who signed the letter (Mortimer, Frank,

Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al)?



(4) I wonder if they remained members of

Alcoholics Anonymous and if their thoughts

about how they handled this situation changed

over the years?



Chris B.



Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
4847 tomper87
Re: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/4/2008 4:35:00 PM


"Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@...> wrote:



> Howdy AA History Lovers,

>

> I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's

> supposed hometown of Simians, Texas.



Hopefully this will not confuse the issue but

here is a possible explanation from a flyer of

one of Sybil's many AA talks. Her birth town

is here referred to as Semens, Texas. Also

very difficult to find this town in Texas.

My conclusion is that they are referring to

Simmons, Texas. The info was probably taken

from her talk and they did not get the spelling

correct. Hope this is helpful.



-Tom P.



- - - -



S Y B I L C O R W I N



Anniversary Meeting



Waterloo, Iowa



April 9, 1993



"A Timeless Staple on the AA Trail"



75 years Young at the time of this Talk!



Sybil was the first woman west of the Missis-

sippi River to get sober in AA. She mentions

that Marty Mann shared that honor on the East

Coast.



Her Sobriety Date is March 23, 1941. She had

been married five times. She introduces

herself at the beginning of her talk as Sybil

Doris Adams Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis

Corwin. She had just celebrated 42 years of

Sobriety at the time this talk took place.



Born in a lil' town of Semens Texas that had

a wooden school house. She tells of lovin'

that School House. Parents were religious and

thought of whiskey as Evil. Momma was nervous

and frightened and it rubbed off on her. A

scared child, she had no one to play with.

Started reading at four and learned by reading

off of a Biscuit Box on the kitchen table.



The family moved to Los Angeles and at 14 or

so she wanted to know what her Papa was talking

about when he spoke of whiskey so she drank a

whole bottle offered to her by her classmates.

Woke up in shame and remorse in her Momma's

bed. A dismal attempt to stop drinking proved

futile.



"I didn't want to behave like that"



Became defiant and Belligerent and she was

derailed at every turn.



First marriage to a Sailor produced one child.

Her only child.



Drinking out of control and more marriages

she at the end of her rope reads the article

in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1941.



"A women drunk was beneath everything you can

think about"



Writing a letter to AA for help; she received

a return letter from Ruth Hock, AA's first

secretary. Ruth told her about a little group

of men meeting in Los Angeles.



This group was given a Red Big Book by Kay

Miller who migrated to LA from NY. Her husband

was in AA. She was not an Alcoholic but

started many meetings.



You will hear how Sybil recruited new Alcoholic

Women to come into the Program and she names

many of the old timers, including Cliff Walker

who became her Sponsor.



A unique sharing of the Steps comes at the

close of this great and history filled talk.



Sybil passed on April 29, 1998


0 -1 0 0
4848 Jim M
Re: Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 2/4/2008 10:50:00 PM


Some time back (a few years) I was contacted

by an individual who I believe said was in the

posession of the original letter and thought

I would be interested in it.



If this is the case and is true the actual

date of the letter was December 6th, 1941.

You can view it here:



http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/irmal1941.html



Jim


0 -1 0 0
4849 t
Re: Irma Livoni & Sybil C threads Irma Livoni & Sybil C threads 2/4/2008 11:37:00 PM


some Grapevine info might be worth noting:



Grapevine article by Sybil C., February 1992,

"Learning to Fly"

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1539



"What We Were Like, Fragments of AA History

(Los Angeles)" - Grapevine, June 1990 -

from a Series on AA history

http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-Fragments-of-AA-History-Jun-19\

90.pdf




"What We Were Like, The North Hollywood Group" -

Grapevine, May 1997 - Linda H., North Hollywood,

California

http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-The-North-Hollywood-Group-May-\

1997.pdf



0 -1 0 0
4850 tomper87
Re: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/5/2008 10:42:00 AM


After reading my own post I realized the

Waterloo Poster of Sybil's talk had at least

one error. She was 85 years young at the

time of this particular talk in 1993. OOPS!



-Tom P.


0 -1 0 0
4851 charles Knapp
Re: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/5/2008 1:10:00 AM


Hello,



As a novice genealogist I checked the US

Census and found that in 1910 Sybil’s family

was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the

family was living in Wichita Texas.



Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New

Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the

1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a

good chance she was born in New Mexico and

not in Texas. I Googled and couldn’t find a

Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure

what city she was actually born in.



I also discovered Sybil’s brother Tex's

full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have

2 different birth dates for him. On his

WWI draft registration it stated his birthday

as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate

states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He

died October 11, 1952.



Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde

Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903

and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe

he ever needed AA.)



I also have the exact date that Sybil died.

According the Social Security Death Index she

died April 29, 1998, not 1988.



I know this to be the correct year because I

went to her memorial service. I got sober in

1989 so it could not have been 1988.



Hope this helps,



Charles from California


0 -1 0 0
4852 Bill Lash
AA Movie Preview AA Movie Preview 2/4/2008 10:39:00 PM


AA Movie PreviewCopy & paste this web address:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5aSR_8u1pE





- - - -



From the moderator: there is a cameo of

Ernie Kurtz about halfway through (among

other worthies who appear in this clip).



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
4853 Glenn Chesnut
Colliers Wood Colliers Wood 2/6/2008 3:15:00 PM


Every once in a while you come across

something that has been put together so

well, that you wish that people in other

parts of the world could just look at it,

to see if they could get some good

suggestions for doing things where they

live.



The Colliers Wood Design for Living AA Group

in London has put together a website



http://www.designforlivingaagroup.co.uk/



that struck me that way. It's put together

beautifully, it's got nice material on

sponsorship, the AA group, and AA literature,

and keeps things firmly grounded in AA's

historic heritage.



Glenn C.

Tuesday night group

Osceola, Indiana, USA


0 -1 0 0
4854 Glenn Chesnut
AA in the Arabian peninsula AA in the Arabian peninsula 2/6/2008 5:48:00 PM


An article sent to us by "John Blair"

<jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)



Long due recognition: UAE's AA hero



by Derek Baldwin



(December 13, 2007)



http://www.xpress4me.com/news/uae/abudhabi/20004714.html



The founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) in

the UAE [United Arab Emirates] has been

nationally feted for 30 years for helping

addicts find their lives again.



In his first public appearance, Tom L.,

64, was presented with an award this

week by the Emirate of Abu Dhabi National

Rehabilitation Centre.



After years of selfless service, it is the

only time that Tom has agreed to be

photographed and identified.



In contrast to a time when a small group met

quietly to respect Muslim views about alcohol,

the centre has recognised Tom and AA for

"continuous outstanding contribution towards

recovery".



The well-attended awards ceremony was a bit

overwhelming for a man who once struggled

heavily with the bottle to the point that he

lost his job, his family and friends in the

late 1960s in India.



"It came to a point where I was living in the

streets in Mumbai. I was 26 and didn’t have

any hope," he said in an interview with

XPRESS. "Then one day I had a spiritual

awakening."



On July 20, 1970, Tom attended an AA meeting

and his life was transformed forever thanks

to the 12-Step Programme and a new relation-

ship with his "higher power".



In 1975, he moved to Abu Dhabi as a labourer

and two years later, he founded the very

first AA meeting in a small room in Deira.



"There was a need for this meeting for myself

and for others as well," he said, seated in

his spacious villa.


0 -1 0 0
4855 grault
Member introduction and group response Member introduction and group response 2/8/2008 7:30:00 AM


Does anyone know the origins of the custom of

members sharing at meetings to introduce

themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic" or

the (much later, I believe) practice of the

group's response: "Hi, xxx"?


0 -1 0 0
4856 LouPetrosino
Preserving archival materials Preserving archival materials 2/9/2008 12:13:00 PM


I have a question about preserving magazines,

printed material and letters. I have been

using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags;

how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there

a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin

important?



Using the large polyethylene bags that I do

have, it's a very tight fit for our older

Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a

problem like this? Anyone have a good source

for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8

x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are

supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening

Post but seem a tad small.



I have also been using acid-free board to

help stiffen the magazines, is that a good

practice?



Thanks for any help you can give.



Lou


0 -1 0 0
4857 Peter Tippett
Tom Powers and Betty Love Tom Powers and Betty Love 2/6/2008 6:45:00 PM


Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom

Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of

the 12x12, please?



Thanks,

Pete Tippett


0 -1 0 0
4858 erb2b
Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/6/2008 10:48:00 PM


HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter.

I have been sending her copies of the informa-

tion in here about her mother. Shes has

replied so far with this:



My mother was born in Simmons not Simions

according to her (Sybil). And yes, she passed

away April 29, 1998.



I will send futher information thru here

to her if you have questions you may want

answered.



Trudging in Peace!!! Corey F.

<erb2b@yahoo.com> (erb2b at yahoo.com)



- - - -



Charles Knapp <cdknapp@...> wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> As a novice genealogist I checked the US

> Census and found that in 1910 Sybil's family

> was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the

> family was living in Wichita Texas.

>

> Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New

> Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the

> 1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a

> good chance she was born in New Mexico and

> not in Texas. I Googled and couldn't find a

> Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure

> what city she was actually born in.

>

> I also discovered Sybil's brother Tex's

> full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have

> 2 different birth dates for him. On his

> WWI draft registration it stated his birthday

> as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate

> states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He

> died October 11, 1952.

>

> Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde

> Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903

> and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe

> he ever needed AA.)

>

> I also have the exact date that Sybil died.

> According the Social Security Death Index she

> died April 29, 1998, not 1988.

>

> I know this to be the correct year because I

> went to her memorial service. I got sober in

> 1989 so it could not have been 1988.

>

> Hope this helps,

>

> Charles from California


0 -1 0 0
4859 arcchi88
Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat 2/7/2008 10:13:00 AM


I was wondering if anyone has any history on

a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's

College in Rensselaer, Indiana.



There have got to be some people who have

attended in years past who can tell a story

or two!!!



If you have ever attended this retreat and

have a story to tell, big or small, please

pass it on!



Thanks!



Tom C.



- - - -



From the moderator, Glenn C.

(South Bend, Indiana):



My first reaction was to assume that you

knew how the first AA retreats were held

there, but then I realized that you might not.

They were an important part of early AA

history however.



http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html



RALPH PFAU wrote the Golden Books under the

pen name of Father John Doe, to preserve his

anonymity. The twelfth step says "(a) Having

had a spiritual awakening as the result of

these steps, we tried (b) to carry this

message to alcoholics, and (c) to practice

these principles in all our affairs." The

Golden Books tell us how to do the last part,

that is, how to bring the principles of the

program to bear on our daily lives in the

world, how to make decisions in the real

world, and how to keep our minds and spirits

on an even keel amidst the storms and stresses

of everyday life.



Ralph Pfau was a priest in Indianapolis,

Indiana, the first Roman Catholic priest to

get sober in the A.A. program. On November 10,

1943, he telephoned Doherty Sheerin, who had

started the first A.A. group in that city on

October 28, 1940. Dohr became his sponsor,

and Ralph never drank again.



In June 1947, Ralph conducted a weekend

spiritual retreat for A.A. members (70% of

them Protestants) at St. Joseph’s College at

Rensselaer, Indiana, and gave the attendees

(as a souvenir) a little pamphlet with a

cover made of gold foil, called the "Spiritual

Side," containing the short talks he had given

to start up the various group discussion

sessions. Afterwards, people began asking for

extra copies to give to their A.A. friends.



Between then and 1964, Ralph put together

fourteen of these little "Golden Books," based

on his talks at A.A. spiritual retreats which

he was now giving all over the U.S. and Canada.



- - - -



http://hindsfoot.org/pflou3.html



When Ralph had been sober for a year and a

half or so, he began to feel frustrated about

one thing. When he went out on twelve step

calls, drunks would not accept anything he

told them, because he was a priest, and they

thought he was just preaching the old moral

condemnation line at them. He talked about it

with Dohr several times, and Dohr told Ralph

that he knew he had special things to give to

the program, and the only problem was to

discover what it was that God needed him to

do. When the solution finally came, Ralph

said, “the answer was so obvious that I felt

foolish because I hadn’t thought of it sooner.”

It was a regular practice in the Catholic

church to have spiritual retreats, where a

retreat director gave talks on Catholic belief

and practice, interspersed with periods when

people could ask questions, and periods for

group discussion sessions, and some free

periods also just for rest and quiet medita-

tion. Catholics had always found that they

could derive great spiritual benefits from

these retreats.



Ralph decided to run a trial experiment by

trying just a simple one-day retreat. He held

it at the Little Sisters of the Poor, starting

after church on Sunday, and running through

till dinner-time in the evening. This was

probably somewhere in the latter part of 1945.

It was a totally novel experience for him.

There was no preaching on Catholic dogma,

because everything was centered purely on A.A.

principles and beliefs. But more importantly,

only twenty of the sixty-seven men who came

were Catholics -- the other 70% all came from

Protestant backgrounds.



The experiment was so successful, that Ralph

decided to try a full weekend retreat, so in

early April of 1946 he wrote to St. Joseph’s

College at Rensselaer, Indiana, and they

finally agreed to let him use their buildings

during their summer vacation, in June of 1946.

This was the first weekend-long spiritual

retreat ever held in Alcoholics Anonymous.

Rensselaer was up in the northwestern corner

of Indiana, an area of the state with which

Ralph was not nearly so familiar. This

weekend affair was again a rousing success.



His theme for this retreat was “The Spiritual

Side of Alcoholics Anonymous,” which went over

so well that he gave the same talk at all the

retreats he conducted over the next year, and

finally put it out on a recording. This was

the first of what was eventually a set of

thirty phonograph records which took his

voice to A.A. people all over the United

States. And this was also where the Golden

Books began.


0 -1 0 0
4860 shakey1aa
L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? 2/8/2008 1:37:00 PM


In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see

Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and

a phone number of UN-2436.



I also have a listing at the address for a

person named L J Knisely.



Was this person a relative of the Smith's or

perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder?

Does any one have any knowledge of this person?



Yours in Service

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008


0 -1 0 0
4861 jm48301
Father Martin''s health? Father Martin''s health? 2/9/2008 4:53:00 PM


On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that

Father Martin had suffered a heart attack.



Has he recovered? My question relates to an

extraordinary figure in "AA History."



Thank you.


0 -1 0 0
4862 jlobdell54
Lavelle or Lovell J. K., 855 Ardmore Lavelle or Lovell J. K., 855 Ardmore 2/9/2008 8:31:00 PM


The L. J. K. whom Shakey found at 855 Ardmore

in 1950 is the Lavelle K. (of Lavelle and

Emma K.) who lived there and took care of

Dr. Bob.



The two signatures I have seen of Lovell show

his name spelled that way (he was btw born in

1890 and in 1942 was living in Kent OH), but

in DR BOB AND THE GOOD OLD TIMERS (pp. 17,

272, 289, 317-318, 329-330, 333, 339-343)

it is spelled Lavelle. His middle name was

Joyce.


0 -1 0 0
4863 Mel Barger
Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love Tom Powers and Betty Love 2/9/2008 5:19:00 PM


Hi Pete,



I don't know anything about Betty Love, but

Tom Powers told me in a telephone interview

that he helped Bill with the 12 & 12, though

apparently without making major changes in

Bill's writing style (which Powers called

Elizabethan).



Jack Alexander, author of the breakthrough

Saturday Evening Post story about AA, also

put some finishing touches on the book,

according to Bill.



In my own opinion, the book reflects the same

style we see in Bill's other writings, so I

feel it's largely his. I think Powers and

others probably made only minor corrections

and changes.



Mel Barger



Mel

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com



----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Tippett

To: AA History Buffs

Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 6:45 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tom Powers and Betty Love





Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom

Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of

the 12x12, please?



Thanks,

Pete Tippett


0 -1 0 0
4864 oldsmokef
Re: Father Martin''s health? Father Martin''s health? 2/10/2008 6:00:00 PM


There is a place on this website where people

can click for an update on Father Joseph C.

Martin's health condition:



http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/index.htm



http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/interior.php?section=News&subsection=FatherMa\

rtinUpdate




- - - -



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"jm48301" <jm48301@...> wrote:

>

> On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that

> Father Martin had suffered a heart attack.

>

> Has he recovered? My question relates to an

> extraordinary figure in "AA History."

>

> Thank you.

>


0 -1 0 0
4865 robin_foote
AA in Vladivostok AA in Vladivostok 2/10/2008 7:17:00 AM


Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok



This public association is a part of the World

community of anonymous alcoholics, which was

founded in 1935 in the USA



VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com

The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics

of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th

anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok"

writes.



The celebration of the anniversary and intro-

ducing the society will be held on Saturday at

noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum.



This public association is a part of the World

community of anonymous alcoholics, which was

founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members

are trained on the program "12 steps."



Every person can apply with his problem to

this association and get a free advice. In

these years thousands of Primorye residents

have found support. Everyone who came with

his own trouble could see that he is not lone

in this world. The trainings are held not only

with those who are tired of taking alcohol

or drugs, but also with their relatives.



"Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse

of his destructive vices," one of the members

of the group of self-help of anonymous

alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it

is never late to do the first step."



http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451


0 -1 0 0
4866 Mike Breedlove
Re: Preserving archival materials - magazines Preserving archival materials - magazines 2/9/2008 5:55:00 PM


Lou,



Let me first mention the COOL, Conservation

online site at - http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/

This site is always a good place to start with

conservation questions.



Another good place is the Library of Congress

web page - http://www.loc.gov/preserv/ There

are many others.



The three appropriate plastics (of which I am

aware) to use to create a clear bag for a

magazine (or any other paper product) are

polyester, polypropylene, and polyethylene.

Polyester, or Mylar-D, is by its nature is

both clearer and stiffer than polypropylene,

which is somewhat clearer and stiffer than

polyethylene. So the short answer to your

question is that polyester is the best material

to us to make a "bag" for a magazine. A 2 mil

(.002) thickness polyester would be sufficient

to support the weight of the magazine unless

the magazine is particularly thick, in which

case a 3 mil would suffice. Given the reality

of cost issues, neither polyester nor polypro-

pylene is that much superior to polyethylene,

particularly if the magazine is kept in the

dark.



A couple of other facts also need to be

mentioned. Even using a bag, one should be

careful to limit handling and display. Also,

the magazine should not be sealed airtight in

the bag, as paper slowly degrades on its own.

Sealing the paper in a bag creates an ever

more acidic environment for the paper. So in

the bag one should leave at least a small

opening on one or two ends to allow a minimal

air flow. Also, if staples are used in the

magazine, please remove them carefully before

placing the magazine in the bag. The metal

staples react with the paper, accelerating

the acidification process.



Particularly with a polyethylene bag using an

acid-free, lignin-free backing board to add

stiffness is very helpful in the case of

handling or display. The one cautionary note

is that if the bag is too tight or small,

that does in fact add physical stress to the

magazine that is not helpful. It would be

better to use an oversized bag and be careful

in handling the magazine that to stuff the

magazine in too small a bag. Hope this is

helpful.



I would suggest that if anyone has more specific

questions about preserving magazines, please

respond to me at my email, mikeb415@knology.net

(mikeb415 at knology.net) rather than to the

entire list. Any questions beyond my expertise

(likely) I will try to help refer to a more

learned person.



Yours in service, Mike B,

Area One Archivist



- - - -



From: lqd8rflp@aol.com (lqd8rflp at aol.com)



Try http://www.uniline.com -- they carry all

kinds of hard to find bags, supplies, etc.



Regards,



John Hager



DOS--2/29/88



- - - -



----- Original Message -----

From: LouPetrosino

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 11:13 AM

Subject: [SPAM] [AAHistoryLovers] Preserving archival materials





I have a question about preserving magazines,

printed material and letters. I have been

using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags;

how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there

a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin

important?



Using the large polyethylene bags that I do

have, it's a very tight fit for our older

Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a

problem like this? Anyone have a good source

for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8

x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are

supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening

Post but seem a tad small.



I have also been using acid-free board to

help stiffen the magazines, is that a good

practice?



Thanks for any help you can give.



Lou













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4867 James Blair
Re: Member introduction and group response Member introduction and group response 2/9/2008 6:32:00 PM


Does anyone know the origins of the custom

of members sharing at meetings to introduce

themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic"



Open meetings in the early years of AA were

public meetings. I'm from Montreal and the

combined groups used to put on a "Public

Meeting" once a month. The speakers were

usually doctors, wardens, social workers and

an AA member who identified himself as an

alcoholic. These meetings were given a

lot of publicity in local papers and radio.



Public meeting carried on into the early 60's

at which time they became part of the Area

Conference and the public stopped coming.



I have 90 tapes of Bill Wilson and not once

in any of his AA talks does he ever introduce

himself as an alcoholic.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
4868 Mel Barger
Re: L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? 2/10/2008 1:34:00 AM


Hi Mike,



Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers shows that a

couple named Emma and Lavelle K. came to live

with Dr. Bob in his last months. These must

be the Kniselys.



What follows is the Dr. Bob story from the

January 1951 Grapevine. Only Emma is mentioned

by name.



Mel Barger





January 1951

Vol. 7 No. 8

Without Heroics. . .As He Would Wish It, This Is the Story Of Dr. Bob the

Physician Whose 'Practice' Reached Half Across the world. . .

Dr. Bob was born August 8, 1879, in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, a typical New

England village of some 7000 souls. As the only son of parents prominent in

civic and church activities, his early childhood was spent under strict parental

guidance.



Signs of inner revolt came at an early age. In later years the doctor

liked to tell his children, Sue and Robert, of how he was put to bed every

evening at five o'clock. He would go quietly enough, a fact which might have led

the modern child-psychology-wise parent to suspect the worst, but which

seemingly went unnoticed by the young man's parents. As soon as he was

reasonably sure that he was considered safely asleep, he would arise, dress and

slip quietly downstairs and out the back door to join his village gang. So far

as is known he was never apprehended while on his nocturnal expeditions.



The call of the woodland trail was far more fascinating to young Rob, as

his schoolmates called him, than the stuffy schoolhouse to which he was forced

to make his reluctant way each morning. His active young mind was more apt to be

concentrating upon the best method to trap a bear than on the dull drone of his

teacher's voice. He wanted to be free to roam. Rebellion surged within him at

the thought of restraint of any sort. . .study and home-work were "musts". .

.even the keenness of his youthful mind was not enough to make up for his lack

of application to his daily lessons. Serious repercussions often followed which

led to accusations of "waywardness" by his parents and his teachers.



Though his scholastic neglect may have disgraced him with his elders upon

occasion, his schoolmates loved him. Whether it was because his habitual and

sometimes adventurous revolts against restraint gave him a glamorous aura or

because of the accuracy with which children often sense traits of character

obscure to adults, they made him a popular and sought-after member of their

class.



Freedom from some of the "musts" came with vacations. He was released,

then, to wander the hills, hunt, and trap and swim in the sea. Often Rob and his

friends went into Canada on hunting trips. On one of these forays into the

wilds, hunting was so poor that the boys lived on eels, blueberries and cream of

tartar biscuits for three weeks. They did flush a particularly large woodchuck.

They stalked him for several hours. Finally they had him within shooting range.



After being shot at for sometime, the woodchuck disappeared. This episode

later caused Rob's father, the Judge, to remark that the woodchuck probably went

in to get out of the noise.



The incident of the woodchuck and a tale of a great bear chase cast some

shadow of doubt on young Rob's prowess as a hunter and woodsman. Off to the

woods one day, went the young hunter and a schoolmate. The boys sauntered along,

kicking at stones. . .building castles in the air. . .talking about the things

that spirited adolescent males talk about. Suddenly they saw before them a huge

bear. The bear, who was probably as astonished as the boys, took to the woods at

a gallop. The young hunters were hard at his heels. The day was hot, the

brambles thick, courageous daring was at its height. . .the bear got away. "I

don't believe," Dr. Bob used to say, "that we ran as fast as we might have!"



In the summers the family often spent some weeks in a cottage by the sea.

Here Rob became an expert swimmer. He and his foster sister, Nancy, spent many

hours building and sailing their own sailboats. It was here that he saved a

young girl from drowning. This event must have left an impression. . .probably

of the advisability for every child to learn to swim at an early age. He taught

his own children, Robert R. and Sue, to be expert swimmers at the age of five.

The three of them would set out every vacation morning to swim the channel near

their cottage. This feat often caused distraught neighbors to call their mother

to tell her that her babies had fallen out of a boat in the middle of the

channel.



While the boy, Rob, was high-spirited, considered rebellious and wayward

he was industrious and labored long and hard at anything he wanted to do. He was

still very young when it became apparent that he was ambitious as well as

willing to work. He wanted, above all else, to become a medical doctor like his

maternal grandfather.



When he was about nine years old he began to show signs of liking to work,

especially out of doors. That summer he was at a neighbor's farm helping the men

load hay. Perhaps he was resting, perhaps he was prowling around poking under

bushes to see what he could see. . .he saw a jug. . .he pulled the cork and

sniffed. It was a new odor to this son of strict New England parents. It was an

odor that he liked. If the stuff in the jug smelled so good, it should taste

good too. And it was good. He liked the taste. He liked the way it made him

feel. A little boy; a jug of hooch; the first securely welded link in the chain.



By the time he reached his teens, Rob was spending parts of his summers

working on a Vermont farm or juggling trays and lugging baggage as a bellhop in

an Adirondack summer hotel. His winters were passed trying to avoid the

necessity of having to attend high school in order to receive a diploma. It may

have been during his high school days that young Rob learned much of what there

is to know about a billiard table. Later when his son, Robert, would tease him

about this accomplishment as being the product of a mis-spent youth, Dr. Bob

would just smile and say nothing. He was a good student in spite of himself and

graduated from St. Johnsbury Academy in 1898.



It was at a party given at the Academy that Dr. Bob first met Anne. A

student at Wellesley, she was spending a holiday with a college chum. It was a

small, reserved girl whom the tall, rangy Rob met that night. With an agile mind

to match his own, Anne had a cheerfulness, sweetness and calm that was to remain

with her through the years. It was these same qualities that were in the future

to endear her to hundreds as Anne, Dr. Bob's wife.



After high school at St. Johnsbury Academy came four years of college at

Dartmouth. At long last the rebellious young colt was free of his parents

restraining supervision. New experiences were to be explored and enjoyed without

having to give an accounting.



His first discovery in his search for the facts of life on the campus was

that joining the boys for a brew seemed to make up the greater part of

after-class recreation. From Dr. Bob's point of view it was the major

extra-curricular activity. It had long been evident that whatever Rob did, he

did well. He became a leader in the sport. He drank for the sheer fun of it and

suffered little or no ill-effects.



Fame came to him at Dartmouth--no accolades for scholarship. . .no letters

for athletic prowess. . .his fame came for a capacity for drinking beer that was

matched by few and topped by none. . .and for what the students called his

"patent throat." They would stand in awe watching him consume an entire bottle

of beer without any visible muscular movement of swallowing.



The prospects of getting drunk in the evening furnished Rob and his

cronies with conversations which ran on all day. The pros and cons of whether to

get drunk or not to get drunk would invariably drive one of their mild-mannered

friends to distraction. He would rise in spluttering protest to say, "Well! If I

were going to get drunk, I'd be about it!"



As often as not. . .they were about it. There were times, though, when a

change of scenery seemed more to their liking. Like the time Rob and a friend

got it into their heads that going to Montpelier, Vermont was a fine idea.

Admiral Dewey had just returned from Manila and was to parade through the town.

Being in the usual state of financial embarrassment, how to get there caused a

fleeting problem, but being convinced that where there was a will, a way would

certainly present itself, they hopped a freight. In the morning weary but

mightily pleased with themselves, they descended from the boxcar in Montpelier.

As they walked up the street toward the parade route they met a fellow Dartmouth

student. The boys greeted him with as much dignity as their grimy faces and

straw-flecked garments would allow. To their astonishment his "Hello" was most

cordial. Wouldn't they like to go to the State House with him? There, from the

reviewing stand, the boys viewed the parade with their Dartmouth friend, whose

father was the Governor of Vermont.



Through the carefree days at college he studied just about as much as he

had to, to get by. But he was a good student none-the-less. Here he made friends

whom he was to know and to see from time to time through his life. . .friends

who did not always approve of his drinking prowess, but loved him in spite of

it.



His last years at Dartmouth were spent doing exactly what he wanted to do

with little thought of the wishes or feelings of others. . .a state of mind

which became more and more predominate as the years passed. Rob graduated in

1902. . ."summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity. The dean had

a somewhat lower estimate.



Now that he held a Dartmouth diploma, it seemed advisable that the willful

young man settle down to making a living and a solid, secure future for himself.

He wasn't ready to settle down to a job. The strong desire to become a medical

doctor was still with him. His mother, who had never approved of this career for

her son, hadn't altered her views. He went to work.



For the next three years his business career was varied, if not

successful. The first two years he worked for a large scale company; then he

went to Montreal where he labored diligently at selling railway supplies, gas

engines of all sorts and many other items of heavy hardware. He left Montreal

and went to Boston where he was employed at Filene's. What his duties were

there, have never been recorded.



All through this three year period he was drinking as much as purse

allowed, still without getting into any serious trouble. But he wasn't making

any headway either. Whatever his duties at Filene's were, they certainly were

not what he wanted to do. He still wanted to be a doctor. It was time he was

about it. He quit his job at the store and that Fall entered the University of

Michigan as a premedical student.



Again he was free of all restraint and doing just as he wanted to do.

Earnestly, he got down to serious business. . .the serious business of drinking

as much as he could and still make it to class in the morning. His famous

capacity for beer followed him to the Michigan campus. He was elected to

membership in the drinking fraternity. Once again he displayed the wonders of

his "patent throat" before his gaping brothers.



He, who had boasted to his friends. . ."Never had a hangover in my life. .

.began to have the morning after shakes. Many a morning Dr. Bob went to classes

and even though fully prepared, turned away at the door and went back to the

fraternity house. So bad were his jitters that he feared he would cause a scene

if he should be called on.



He went from bad to worse. No longer drinking for the fun of it, his life

at Michigan became one long binge after another. In the Spring of his Sophomore

year, Dr. Bob made up his mind that he could not complete his course. He packed

his grip and headed South.



After a month spent on a large farm owned by a friend, the fog began to

clear from his brain. As he began to think more clearly he realized that it was

very foolish to quit school. He decided to return and continue his work.



The faculty had other ideas on the subject. They were, they told him,

completely disgusted. It would require no effort at all to get along without his

presence on the Michigan campus. After a long argument they allowed him to

return to take his exams. He passed them creditably. After many more painful

discussions, the faculty also gave him his credits.



That Fall he entered Brush University as a Junior. Here his drinking

became so much worse that his fraternity brothers felt forced to send for his

father. The Judge made the long journey in a vain effort to get him straightened

out.



After those long disastrous binges when Dr. Bob was forced to face his

father he had a deep feeling of guilt. His father always met the situation

quietly, "Well, what did this one cost you?" he would ask. Oddly enough this

feeling of guilt would come, not because he felt that he had hurt him in any

way, but because his father seemed, somehow, to understand. It was this quiet,

hopeless understanding that pained him deep inside.



He was drinking more and more hard liquor, now, and coming up to his final

exams he went on a particularly rough binge. When he went in to the examinations

his hand trembled so badly he could not hold a pencil. He was, of course, called

before the faculty. Their decision was that if he wished to graduate he must

come back for two more quarters, remaining absolutely dry. This he was able to

do. The faculty considered his work so creditable he was able to secure a much

coveted internship in City Hospital in Akron, Ohio.



The first two years in Akron, as a young interne, were free of trouble.

Hard work took the place of hard drinking simply because there wasn't time for

both. At one time during his internship he ran the hospital pharmacy by himself.

This added to other duties took him all over the hospital. . .running up and

down the stairs because the elevators were too slow. . .running here, rushing

there as if the devil were after him. All this frenzied activity never failed to

bring about an explosive, "Now where is that cadaverous young Yankee!" from one

of the older doctors who became particularly fond of him.



Though the two years as interne at City were hectic, Dr. Bob had time to

learn much from the older men who were glad to share their knowledge with him.

He began to perfect his own skills so that he might become a specialist, a

surgeon.



When his two years of internship were over he opened an office in The

Second National Bank Building, in Akron. This was in 1912. His offices were in

the same building until he retired from practice in 1948.



Completely out on his own now, and again free to do as he chose--some

money in his pocket and all the time in the world. It may have been that

reaction set in from all the work, the irregular hours, the hectic life of an

interne; it may have been real or imagined; whatever caused it, Dr. Bob

developed considerable stomach trouble. The remedy for that was, of course, a

couple of drinks. It didn't take him long to return to the old drinking habits.



Now he began to know the real horror, the suffering of pain that goes with

alcoholism. In hope of relief, he incarcerated himself at least a dozen times in

one of the local sanitariums. After three years of this torture he ended up in a

local hospital where they tried to help him. But he got his friends to smuggle

him in a quart. Or, if that failed, it wasn't difficult for a man who knew his

way around a hospital to steal the alcohol kept in the building. He got rapidly

worse.



Finally his father had to send a doctor out from St. Johnsbury to attempt

to get him home. Somehow the doctor managed to get him back to the house he was

born in, where he stayed in bed for two months before he could venture out. He

stayed around town for about two months more, then returned to Akron to resume

his practice. Dr. Bob was thoroughly scared, either by what had happened, by

what the doctor had told him, or both. He went into one of his dry periods and

stayed that way until the 18th Amendment was passed.



In 1915 he went back to Chicago to marry Anne. He brought her back to

Akron as his bride. The first three years of their married life were free of the

unhappiness that was to come later. He became established in his practice. Their

son Robert was born and life began to make a sensible pattern. Then the 18th

Amendment was passed.



Dr. Bob's reasoning was quite typical at this time, if not quite logical.

It would make very little difference if he did take a few drinks now. The liquor

that he and his friends had bought in amounts according to the size of their

bank accounts, would soon be gone. He could come to no harm. He was soon to

learn the facts of the Great American Experiment.



The government obligingly made it possible for doctors to obtain unlimited

supplies of liquor. Often during those black years, Dr. Bob, who held his

profession sacred, would go to the phone book, pick out a name at random and

fill out the prescription which would get him a pint of whisky.



When all else failed there was the newly accredited member of American

society, the bootlegger. A moderate beginning led to Dr. Bob's usual ending.



During the next few years, he developed two distinct phobias. One was the

fear of not sleeping and the other was the fear of running out of liquor. So

began the squirrel-cage existence. Staying sober to earn enough money to get

drunk. . .getting drunk to go to sleep. . .using sedatives to quiet the jitters.

. .staying sober. . .earning money. . .getting drunk. . .smuggling home a

bottle. . .hiding the bottle from Anne who became an expert at detecting hiding

places



This horrible nightmare went on for seventeen years. Somehow he had the

good sense to stay away from the hospital and not to receive patients if he were

drinking. He stayed sober every day until four o'clock, then came home. In this

way he was able to keep his drinking problem from becoming common knowledge or

hospital gossip.



Through these mad years Dr. Bob was an active member of the City Hospital

Staff and often he had occasion to go to St. Thomas Hospital, where in 1934, he

became a member of the Courtesy Staff and in 1943, a member of the Active Staff.

It was during one of these visits to St. Thomas, in 1928, that in the course of

his duties, he met Sister Mary Ignatia.



The meeting seemed of no particular consequence at the time. Many Sisters

came to St. Thomas, then departed for duties elsewhere. Though neither of them

knew it, the meeting was to have great importance to them both in the years to

come. Sister Ignatia, like the others, never knew of the inner turmoil with

which this man was beset. . ."He just always seemed different than the rest. .

.he brought something with him when he came into a room. . .I never knew what it

was, I just felt it. . ."



So perhaps it was, then, that the Hand that moves us all was beginning to

speed up the events that led to Dr. Bob's meeting with the stranger.



Anne and the children now lived in a shambles of broken promises, given in

all sincerity. Unable to see her friends, she existed on the bare necessities.

About all she had left was her faith that her prayers for her husband would

somehow be answered.



It then happened that Dr. Bob and Anne were thrown in with a crowd of

people who attracted Dr. Bob because of their poise, health and happiness. These

people spoke without embarrassment, a thing he could never do. They all seemed

very much at ease. Above all, they seemed happy. They were members of the Oxford

Group.



Self conscious, ill at ease most of the time, his health nearing the

breaking point, Dr. Bob was thoroughly miserable. He sensed that these new-found

friends had something that he did not have. He felt that he could profit from

them.



When he learned that what they had was something of a spiritual nature,

his enthusiasm was somewhat dampened. Unfortunately his childhood background of

church twice during the week and three times on Sunday had caused him to resolve

that he would never appear in a church so long as he lived. He kept that resolve

for 40 years except when his presence there was absolutely necessary. It helped

some to find out that these people did not gather in a church but at each

other's homes.



That they might have the answer to his drinking problem never entered his

head but he thought it could do him no harm to study their philosophy. For the

next two and one half years he attended their meetings. And got drunk regularly!



Anne became deeply interested in the group and her interest sustained Dr.

Bob's. He delved into religious philosophy, he read the Scriptures, he studied

spiritual interpretations, the lives of the Saints. Like a sponge he soaked up

the spiritual philosophies of the ages. Anne kept her simple faith in prayer. .

.and her courage--Dr. Bob got drunk.



Then one Saturday afternoon, Henrietta called Anne. Could they come over

to meet a friend of hers who might help Bob. . .



At five o'clock Sunday evening they were at Henrietta's door. Dr. Bob

faced Bill W. who said, "You must be awfully thirsty. . .this won't take us

long. . ."



From the moment Bill spoke to him, Dr. Bob knew that here was a man who

knew what he was talking about. As the hours passed, Bill told of his

experiences with alcohol; he told him of the simple message that a friend had

brought. . . "Show me your faith and by my works I will show you mine. . ."



Slowly, at first, then with sudden clarity, Dr. Bob began to understand.

Bill had been able to control his drinking problem by the very means that Dr.

Bob, himself had been trying to use. . .but there was a difference. The

spiritual approach was as useless as any other if you soaked it up like a sponge

and kept it all to yourself. True, Bill had been preaching his message at any

drunk who would listen; he had been unsuccessful 'til now, but the important

thing was that by giving his knowledge away, he, himself, was sober!



There was one more short binge for Dr. Bob after that talk. On June 10,

1935, he took his last drink. It was high time now to put his house in order.

With his quiet professional dignity, his ready humor, he got about it.



Bill stayed on in Akron for several months, living with Dr. Bob and Anne.

It wasn't long before they realized that they needed another drunk to help, if

they could. The two men went over to City Hospital. They asked the nurse on

"admitting" if she had an alcoholic in the hospital. They were taken to a room

where a man lay strapped to the bed, writhing in agony, "Will this one do?" the

nurse asked. "This one" would do very well. That human wreck to whom they talked

that day and several times after, came out of the hospital, sober. Bill D.

became the third member of the little group. . .AA Number Three!



Dr. Bob now was a man with a purpose and the will to live. When the fog

cleared out of his brain, his health had improved. He felt so good in the summer

of 1935, at 56 years of age, that he took Bob and Sue out to the tennis courts

one day. He played them six straight sets of tennis. The kids were done in.



Anne began to live again, too. She was happy with her husband's new-found,

joyful sobriety. She was no longer friendless, alone. Her kitchen table was

almost always littered with coffee cups, a fresh pot-full sat waiting on the

stove. Her faith, her belief in prayer and divine guidance went far to carry the

men through that first summer.



In the year 1935, there were few men alive who would accept the fact that

alcoholism is a disease, which should be treated as such. Prejudice and

ignorance were some of the problems facing Dr. Bob as he set about helping sick

alcoholics with his professional skill and his new-found spiritual

understanding. City Hospital was often filled with drunks smuggled in under

trumped-up diagnosis. The old-timers who were hospitalized during those first

years were admitted as suffering from "acute gastritis."



Since he was on the courtesy staff at St. Thomas, run by the Sisters of

Charity of St. Augustine, Dr. Bob felt that he might enlist the help of Sister

Ignatia. He knew that it had never seemed right to her that a drunk should be

turned away. She couldn't understand why a drunk on the verge of DT's was turned

away but a drunk with a bashed-in head was admitted. They were both sick. They

both needed help.



His first approach to her on the subject was casual. He didn't tell her

much nor did he make any promises. He just told her that he was trying to treat

alcoholics by a new method. He and some other alcoholics, he said believed that

alcoholism could be controlled by medical attention coupled with the spiritual.

His remarks, though brief, made sense to her.



It wasn't long before Dr. Bob brought in an alcoholic. Sister admitted him

as having acute indigestion. He was put to bed in a double room. Then Dr. Bob

told her quietly, "We'd like to have him in a private room in the morning." As

if it weren't bad enough to have an illegal admittance on her conscience this

man was asking for a private room! Morning found the patient peacefully asleep,

on a cot in the room where flowers were trimmed and arranged for patients'

rooms!



After that more and more "acute gastritis" cases woke up in St. Thomas

Hospital. In August, 1939, Dr. Bob brought a patient to Sister for admittance.

So far as is known, he was the first alcoholic ever to be admitted into a

general hospital under the diagnosis: Alcoholism. Dr. Bob never could remember

just what the policy of the hospital was at that time, nor did he recall ever

having asked.



Since that August day there have been 4800 cases admitted into St. Thomas.

Until Dr. Bob retired, he visited the ward each day to give personal attention

to each patient. His cheerful, "Well, what can I do for you?" was heard in the

ward for the last time, on Christmas, 1949. On that day Sister played the organ

for him and showed him the beautiful new chimes. . .talked of her hopes of more

beds and furniture for a lounge outside the ward. The chimes tell the story of

the bitter criticism of 10 years ago to the complete co-operation from everyone

connected with the hospital today. But so long as Sister Ignatia goes about her

duties on the admitting desk and in the AA ward, whenever a drunk is brought in

a call will come, "Sister, you'd better come. One of your boys is downstairs!"



Dr. Bob and his first few red-eyed disciples continued to meet with the

Oxford Group. But they were a 'special interest' bloc. The unpredictable nature

of the alcoholic and his preoccupation with the earthy realities of drinking and

drunkenness, led the tactful Doctor to the idea of separate meetings.



Without fuss or bother, Dr. Bob announced that there would be a meeting

for the alcoholics. . .if any of them cared to come. When the meeting came to

order, all of the little band were there. Dr. Bob put his foot on the rung of a

dining room chair, identified himself as an alcoholic and began reading The

Sermon on the Mount. Still not known as Alcoholics Anonymous, this was the first

Akron meeting for alcoholics only.



Word of the work being done in Akron began to spread to nearby Cleveland.

Men began coming over to be hospitalized in St. Thomas or City Hospital. The

growth of the group speeded up. By 1939, they were meeting in Akron's Kings

School. They had long since outgrown Anne's small house. Through all the growth,

the hurts that come with growing pains, the gossip, the little grievances, Dr.

Bob listened to them all.



Occasionally, he advised. He became the "father confessor" to the group.

So sacred to him were confidences, that he would not break them for anybody or

anything. Anne used to tease him about be-being "so close-mouthed" that she

claimed she didn't know a thing that was going on. She laughingly told him that

she would divorce him unless he told her some of the things he knew. . .but she

was quick to retract her statement because she knew, even for her, he would not

break a confidence.



By 1939, there were enough men coming to Akron from Cleveland to make it

seem advisable to start a Cleveland Group. The first meeting was held in May of

that year. The break away from the Akron group brought with it disagreements.

The only thing that kept them on an even keel, say those pioneers, was the sound

wisdom of Dr. Bob. How he kept his sanity seemed a miracle. There he was, they

say, in the midst of a bunch of unstable people, not yet dry behind the cars. It

may have been because he would never allow one man to speak ill of another

unless that man were present, that the Cleveland off-spring survived.



By the end of 1939, Cleveland had proved a big point in AA history. It had

proved, first that one group could break from another. This they proved

conclusively because by the end of the year there was not one Cleveland group. .

.there were three! The two splits had been brought about by differences of

opinion. It seemed that no matter what happened the group activity would go on.

Cleveland proved, too, that alcoholics could be sobered up on what almost

amounted to a mass production basis. By 1944, the Cleveland membership was well

past 1000. Dr. Bob's wise counsel was right. . ."there's no use worrying about

these things. As long as people have faith and believe, this will go on."



In the years that came after that meeting on Mother's Day, 1935, Dr. Bob

gave freely of himself to all who came to ask for help, to seek advice. . .to

laugh or to cry. In so helping others, he began to rebuild himself.

Professionally, he became loved and respected by all who worked with him. .

.socially he was once again the kind, dignified man who Anne and their friends

knew and admired.



Dr. Bob, as Anne had known him to be, was possessed of calm professional

dignity which gave courage and heart to his patients. In the years to come, this

dignity, was to play a large part in the lives of the hundreds who came to his

door. Never given to loose talk, Dr. Bob controlled his tongue as surely, as

steadily and as potently as he did his scalpel. He used the gift of speech with

the same concise economy, the sureness of purpose, that went into each deft

movement of his surgeon's hands.



More often than not his observations were sprinkled with salty humor. Dr.

Bob had the rare quality of being able to laugh at himself and with others. As

much a part of him as his quiet professional dignity, was this keen sense of

humor. He spoke with a broad New England accent and was given to dropping a

remark or telling a riotous story absolutely deadpan. This sometimes proved

disconcerting to those who did not know him well, especially when he referred to

the poised, charming Anne, as "The Frail."



Seldom did he call his friends by their given names. . .it was Abercrombie

to those men of whom he was particularly fond--or Sugar to close women friends.

. .a friend in the loan business was Shylock. This tall "cadaverous looking

Yankee" who held his profession sacred and walked through life with dignity

would tell anyone who questioned him as to his hopes, his ambitions. . .that all

he ever wanted in life was "to have curly hair, to tap dance, to play the piano

and to own a convertible."



One of the very early Akron members says that the first impression he had

of Dr. Bob was of a gruff person, a bit forbidding, with a habit of looking over

his glasses. He gave the impression of looking right through to your soul. This

AA says that he got the impression that Dr. Bob knew exactly what he was

thinking. . .and found out later that he did!



When he met Dr. Bob for the first time, what was offered seemed to the new

man, a perfect answer to an immediate and serious problem. . .it was something

to tell a boss who, at the time was none too sympathetic to his drinking. Dr.

Bob knew that the man wasn't being honest with him, and he knew he was kidding

himself. No lectures were given, no recriminations. Dr. Bob began to make a

habit of stopping by the man's house after office hours. About twice a week he

stopped for coffee and the two men discussed. . .honesty. Then Dr. Bob suggested

that the man stop kidding himself. Their discussion moved on to faith. . .faith

in God. The new man went to his employer and, for the first time, saw the

practical power of real honesty. A problem which had looked insurmountable,

vanished, just melted away.



Dr. Bob always began his day with a prayer and meditation over some

familiar Bible verse, then he set about his work in "My Father's vineyard. ."

The work in the "vineyard" was not easy in those years. No "preaching" would

have served, either to the alcoholics who came his way or to those skeptic

members of his profession. He began, now to make AA a way of life.



His life began to be an example of patience and serenity for all to see

and to benefit by if they so chose. It was too early in the years of education

on alcoholism to be able to speak of the disease above a whisper. . .Dr. Bob and

Sister Ignatia developed a little code. . .the boys on the third floor were

called the Frails, while the surgical patients were spoken of in the most proper

professional terms. Often while he went about the business of washing up he had

to listen in silence to bitter remarks from his fellow doctors. . ."Too bad this

hospital is so full that a fellow can't get a patient in. . .always room for the

drunks though--"



In the years to come he was to live to hear himself introduced as the

co-founder of "the greatest," "most wonderful," "must momentous movement of all

times. . ." For these tributes he was grateful, but he laughed them off and upon

one occasion was heard to remark. . ."The speaker certainly takes in a lot of

territory and plenty of time. . ."



In his drinking days, Dr. Bob was two people, two personalities. After his

return to sobriety he remained two personalities. As he made his rounds through

the hospitals he was the medical practitioner but as he entered the door of the

alcoholic ward he became, Dr. Bob, a man eager, willing and able to help his

fellowman. Those who worked with him say that as he left the hospital each day

they felt that two men went out the door. . .one a great M.D., the other a great

man.



Dr. Bob and Anne lived simply and without pretense in their modest home.

Here they shared the joys of parenthood, the sorrows, the companionship of their

friends. He was an industrious man, willing to work for the creature comforts

that he loved. He accepted with humility any material wealth that came his way.

Something of a perfectionist, he loved diamonds, not for possession, but for the

beauty of their brilliant perfection. He would go out of his way to look at a

diamond owned by another. . .he would go out of his way, too, to look at a

favorite view of his beloved mountains and sea.



If he had any pride in possession it was for big gleaming automobiles. He

owned, through his life, many of them. He treated them with the care that their

mechanical perfection deserved. The car that he probably loved the most was the

last one he bought just before the end. . .the convertible. The car that

symbolized a lifetime ambition. His friends will remember him in the summer of

1950, at 71, speeding through the streets of Akron in his new yellow Buick

convertible--the long slim lines made even more rakish with the top down. No

hat, his face to the sun, into the driveway he sped, pebbles flying, tires

screeching, he'd swoosh to a stop! Fate, however, permitted him only 150 miles

of this joyous "hot-rod" driving. It was with reluctance, that summer, that he

gave in to his illness. For the forty fifth year he returned to his home in

Vermont. . .in the staid and sedate sedan. . ."I won't be able to see the

mountains so well. . .but my legs are a little long for that roadster. . ."



Until the last summer his days were spent in the routine of the hospital.

. .his office and his club, for recreation. During almost all of his adult life

in Akron, Dr. Bob lunched at the City Club. In his drinking days, it was often

to hide away in a room until he was found by friends. But in later years it was

to enjoy the companionship of his good friends, some of whom joined him in his

new-found sobriety, others had no need of the help he could give them. . .other

than the pleasure of his friendship.



Noon would almost always find him at the same table in the corner of the

men's dining room. There, for more than ten years he was served by the same

waitress, Nancy. Dr. Bob always greeted her with, "How's my chum today. . ."They

were good friends. As Nancy served him his simple lunch of melon or grapefruit,

soup, milk or coffee and his favorite Boston CreamPie, they discussed her

problems. Once, Nancy, who was ill at the time, became uncontrollably angry and

threw a cracker basket at another waiter. Dr. Bob admonished. . ."Now, now Chum,

don't let little things bother you. . ."The next day he sent her "As a Man

Thinketh So Is He" and "The Runner's Bible."



Nancy always looked forward to serving Dr. Bob and his friends. . ."he was

such a good fellow. . ."Often when there was much discussion, arguments and pros

and cons, Nancy would ask him why he didn't say something, to which he'd answer.

. ."Too much being said already!" To Nancy, Dr. Bob was "such a good kind man. .

.he had such a simple faith in prayer."



After luncheon, if time permitted, Dr. Bob joined his cronies for a game

of Rum or Bridge. He was expert at both; and he always played to win. The man

who would give you his last dollar, though his own creditors might be hard at

his heels, would take your last cent away from you, if he could, in a card game.

. .but he never got angry. He had the habit of keeping up a steady chatter

through the game, his cronies say that it could have been annoying except that

it was always so funny that you had to laugh.



Dr. Bob vowed that it was silly to take the game seriously. . .never could

see how these tournament players got so serious about this thing. Once when he

and Anne were in Florida, he was airing his views to a stranger on the

seriousness of some bridge players. The subject had come up because a bridge

tournament was scheduled for that day. The two men sat together discussing

bridge until they talked themselves into entering the tournament. . .since they

had nothing better to do. The stranger and Dr. Bob made a good showing among the

"serious" players. They won that afternoon but upset their opponents to such a

degree as to cause one to remark, "If you had bid right and played right you

never would have won!" Whereupon Dr. Bob said, "Quite so," as he accepted the

first prize.



For some obscure reason, Dr. Bob always carried a pocket-full of silver.

It may have been a hangover from the insecure squirrel-cage days of the eternal

fight to keep enough money in his pocket to buy a quart or it may have been just

because he liked to hear the jingle but there were times when he had as much as

ten dollars in his pocket.



He had one particular friend with whom he would match a fifty cent piece

by way of greeting. No matter where the two met, each would silently reach into

his pocket, draw out the silver and match. Silently the winner took the money

from the other. The first time Dr. Bob underwent serious surgery, he could not

have visitors. His coin-matching friend came to the hospital to call. He was met

there by Emma, the woman friend and nurse who cared for Anne. Emma met the

visitor in the guest lounge. She greeted him silently with a coin in her palm. .

.silently they matched. Dr. Bob was the richer by fifty cents.



This man of two personalities would weep as he told you of his fear that

his skill would not enable him to save the life of a charity patient; then again

he would weep as he told of what seemed to be a miraculous recovery. He would

weep, too, from laughter at some story which struck his fancy.



As his son, Bob, grew into manhood, Dr. Bob shared with him the incidents

and the fun of the day. He could hardly wait, it seemed, to get home to tell

young Bob some story picked up at the hospital. Young Bob tells of how he would

tell a good story, or listen to one, then lean back in his chair to laugh until

the tears streamed down his cheeks. Then with a familiar gesture, he took off

his glasses to wipe the tears away. . .still chuckling. "Our home was a happy

one, in those days," said young Bob, "I never heard a cross word between my

mother and my father."



The war, then marriage took young Bob from home and to Texas where he now

lives. Bob laughs as he tells of his father's first meeting with his

bride-to-be. He looked her up and down then remarked, in his dry and

disconcerting fashion; "She's all right, son. She's built for speed and light

house-keeping!"



Young Bob often remarked to his father about his seemingly endless

knowledge of medicine, philosophies and general bits of information. To which

Dr. Bob would reply, "Well, I should know something, I've read for at least an

hour every night of my adult life--drunk or sober." Sometime during the course

of all the reading, he delved into Spiritualism. . .he even tried the mysteries

of the Ouija board. He felt that in some far distant centuries, the science of

the mind would be so developed as to make possible contact between the living

and the dead.



All the reading of the years had included studies on alcoholism, too. This

scientific knowledge coupled with his experiences with alcoholics including

himself might well have led him to a strictly scientific approach. He could,

with ease, have spoken of statistics, cures and the like because he undoubtedly

listened to more "case histories" than any other man alive. He listened

patiently to each man in the ward, to every person who came to his home for

advice, and there were hundreds.



He remained plain Dr. Bob, alcoholic, who came to believe that the

disorder was more on the psychological and spiritual side rather than the

physical. The thinking of the alcoholic patient was all beclouded, his attitudes

were wrong, his philosophy of life was all mixed up, he had no spiritual life. .

.the whole man was sick. As one man said, "He came to me in the hospital, he sat

quietly by my bed and talked, then he prayed to his God for me. . .that's what

stuck. . .that he took the time and interest and the compassion to pray for me.

. ."



The happy years of Dr. Bob's sobriety were marred, at last, by Anne's

illness and blindness. Cataracts were completely covering her eyes, so that she

could not see. . .even after surgery her last years were spent in shadows. Dr.

Bob began, then, to be her eyes as much as he could. Still in medical practice,

though, he could not be with her every hour. It was then, in his own quiet way

that he found a solution.



In 1942, years before Anne's blindness had become serious, two strangers

came to his office, a man and his wife, Emma. The man was seeking the help that

Dr. Bob could give him. The three sat in his office and talked for almost an

hour, while in the reception room waited the "paying patients." Occasionally,

after that first meeting, Dr. Bob and Anne stopped by their house; they saw them

each week at the AA meeting in King School.



Dr. Bob knew that Anne's blindness was fast growing worse and that she

needed daily care. . .he knew too, that she would be unhappy to think of herself

as a burden to anyone. It came vacation time, the children were gone which meant

that the house must be left empty. . .the dog to his own devices. What better

plan than the nice couple, who lived down the street should come to the house

while they were on vacation. . .to keep it in running order and watch over the

dog? Would the couple consider throwing some clothes into a bag and going over

to the house? So it was for eight years Emma, a nurse, and her husband came from

time to time to stay at Dr. Bob's house. . .until it was necessary for Emma to

be with Anne at all times. In the last years of Anne's illness she kept house

for them and during the day, when Dr. Bob was at his office, she watched over

Anne.



Through those last years together Anne, though in ill health, stood ever

ready to give words of hope and encouragement to all who came to her door. Her

first thoughts were for others, never herself, no matter how badly she might

feel. When Dr. Bob and Anne prepared for their last trip together, Anne said,

"You know, I don't really care to go but Dad wants too, and he may never be able

to make the trip again. . .it will make him happy." Of the same trip, Dr. Bob

said of Anne, "I don't really want to go, but Anne wants it. It will make her

happy." Each took the long trip feeling that it was making the other happy.



It was in June, 1949, just after their return, that Anne passed away. At

the time of her passing, Dr. Bob, said, "I will miss her terribly, but she would

have had it no other way. Had she survived this attack she would have been in

the hospital for months. . .then there would have been months at home in bed. .

.she would have hated being a burden. . .she could not have stood it."



In the summer of 1948, Dr. Bob found that he, too, was suffering from a

serious malady. He closed his office and retired from practice, so that he and

Anne could live their last days together, quietly. For a time after Anne died,

there was some indecision in the house. It was understood that Emma and her

husband, who had by this time been spending most of their time at the house,

would leave and go to their own home. Dr. Bob was to get a housekeeper or a

nurse. He did interview one woman, but his heart wasn't in it. It was then that

they all felt that Anne had reached out and made their decision for them.



For the first few weeks after Anne's death, Dr. Bob and Emma dreamed of

Anne almost every night. To Emma, she seemed troubled. One night Emma's dream of

Anne was so real as to be almost a vision. Emma knew what she must do. Next

morning she faced Dr. Bob. "Do you want us to stay with you?" His answer was

quick and simple, "Yes." None of them dreamed of Anne again.



So it was that the couple who once came to Dr. Bob for help, came to spend

the last year and one half with him. . .they gave up their apartment and lived

with him until he too, passed on.



Ever the professional man, Dr. Bob watched the progress of his disease

each day. When at last, he knew that the malady was malignant and hopeless, he

accepted it with calm and lack of resentment. He felt no bitterness at the

doctors who had failed to make an early diagnosis. . ."Why should I blame them?

I've probably made a lot of fatal mistakes myself!"



Between the times that he was forced to stay in bed or to go to the

hospital to undergo surgery, he lived his life as normally as possible and got

as much enjoyment out of it as he could. After Anne's death, he and a good

friend drove to the West Coast, where they renewed old acquaintances; then they

went on to his home in Vermont. . .and to Maine. Where ever he went AAs showered

him with attention and kindness. Of this he said, "Sometimes these good people

do so much for me, it is embarrassing. I have done nothing to deserve it, I have

only been an instrument through which God worked."



At home Dr. Bob settled down to enjoying his friends and the things he

could do for them. . .between his serious attacks he enjoyed "Emmy's" good food.

"I never saw a man who could eat so much sauerkraut. . .he would go without his

dessert, just to have another helping!" Then came the television set.



Emma's husband went to Dr. Bob one day telling him that he was in the mood

to buy a television set. "Well," said Dr. Bob, who didn't like television. .

.would have no part of it. . ."I guess if you can buy the set, I can give you

the chimney for the aerial." The beautiful new set arrived in due time but Dr.

Bob would have none of it. He absolutely refused to look at it. Then one night,

as he lay on the davenport. Emma caught him peeking around his newspaper! The

"sneaking a look" went on for days until he succumbed and became a fan. After

that he spent long pleasant hours watching the TV shows. . .especially the tap

dancers. . ."Hmph," he'd grunt, "that's easy. . .nothing to it. . .anybody can

do it!" At the time of the Louis: Charles fight, he stayed in bed all day so

that he would be rested enough to see the fight that evening!



As a patient, Dr. Bob behaved himself very well except for one thing. He

refused to take his pills as they were scheduled. Instead he put his old "patent

throat" to use. He kept a shot glass, which he filled with all the pills he was

to take for the day. While Emma looked on in awe, even as the brothers of yore,

he'd throw back his head and toss off the pills at one gulp. . ."What difference

does it make? They all go to the same place anyway!"



That he knew the exact progress of his disease was evident to Emma and

those close to him, although he never complained, even when in pain. After a

doctor's call he would say to Emma, "Sugar, don't kid me now. This is the end

isn't it?" Emma always answered with, "Now you know better. You know exactly

what's going on!"



During the Spring and Summer of 1950, when he had to husband his strength

and measure it out carefully, Dr. Bob expressed the wish to do three things. He

wanted to attend the First International Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous in

Cleveland. He wanted, once again, to go to St. Johnsbury, Vermont, for his

vacation. And he wanted to spend Christmas with his son in Texas. . .two of his

wishes were fulfilled.



As the days passed and the date of the Conference drew nearer, he began

more and more, to conserve his energy. Most of his days were spent in his room.

. .on the davenport watching the TV cap-dancers and listening to the pianists.

Those who were close to him watched him grow weaker. . .then rally. . .



While the last, mad days of preparations for the Conference were going on

in Cleveland, it seemed, at times, to his close friends, that he would not

gather the strength to do the thing that he so much wanted to do. Even to the

last minutes before the Big Meeting, on Sunday, it was doubtful whether he would

be granted the vigor he needed to appear in the Cleveland Auditorium to say the

few words that he wanted to say to the thousands waiting to hear and see him.



Those gathered that hot Sunday afternoon, now know, that when at last Dr.

Bob joined the others on the platform they were witnessing another milestone of

the movement built on simple faith and works. . .At the time, this throng was

perhaps too close to history to know the full meaning of what was taking place

before them. . .Now he came forward to speak to the thousands. . .with quiet

dignity. . .even as that night so long ago, when in Anne's living room, he put

his foot on the rung of a dining room chair to read The Sermon on the Mount. .

.he leaned forward against the lectern to say:



"My good friends in AA and of AA. I feel I would be very remiss if I

didn't take this opportunity to welcome you here to Cleveland not only to this

meeting but those that have already transpired. I hope very much that the

presence of so many people and the words that you have heard will prove an

inspiration to you--not only to you but may you be able to impart that

inspiration to the boys and girls back home who were not fortunate enough to be

able to come. In other words, we hope that your visit here has been both

enjoyable and profitable.



"I get a big thrill out of looking over a vast sea of faces like this with

a feeling that possibly some small thing that I did a number of years ago played

an infinitely small part in making this meeting possible. I also get quite a

thrill when I think that we all had the same problem. We all did the same

things. We all get the same results in proportion to our zeal and enthusiasm and

stick-to-itiveness. If you will pardon the injection of a personal note at this

time, let me say that I have been in bed five of the last seven months and my

strength hasn't returned as I would like, so my remarks of necessity will be

very brief.



"But there are two or three things that flashed into my mind on which it

would be fitting to lay a little emphasis; one is the simplicity of our Program.

Let's not louse it all up with Freudian complexes and things that are

interesting to the scientific mind but have very little to do with our actual AA

work. Our 12 Steps, when simmered down to the last, resolve themselves into the

words love and service. We understand what love is and we understand what

service is. So let's bear those two things in mind.



"Let us also remember to guard that erring member--the tongue, and if we

must use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance.



"And one more thing; none of us would be here today if somebody hadn't

taken time to explain things to us, to give us a little pat on the back, to take

us to a meeting or two, to have done numerous little kind and thoughtful acts in

our behalf. So let us never get the degree of smug complacency so that we're not

willing to extend or attempt to, that help which has been so beneficial to us,

to our less fortunate brothers. Thank you very much."



As he returned to his seat on the platform, those who watched could easily

see that the exertion of saying the brief words of counsel had left him

physically weak and spent. Try as he would, he was forced to leave after a few

moments. In consternation thousands of eyes followed him as he left the stage.



He was driven back to Akron, that afternoon by a friend. As Dr. Bob was

helped into the automobile, he seemed physically very near complete exhaustion.

As they drove the thirty odd miles from Cleveland to Akron, some inner strength

seemed to revive Dr. Bob so that by the time they drove up to his home he was

almost his old self. The man who seemed on the point of collapse only an hour

before, said "Well, if I'm going to be ready to go to Vermont next week, I'd

better be about it."



Shortly after the Conference, he did go to Vermont. Dr. Bob, his son and

his daughter-in-law, drove, in the sedan, to his boyhood home, where he visited

old friends for the last time. . .and worried all the time for fear the

convertible would not be comfortable for Emma and her husband to drive on their

long vacation trip. . ."Should've taken it myself. . ."



Upon his return home, he was admitted into St. Thomas hospital for a minor

operation. . .one of so many that had come during the last years. Then home to

Emma's good cooking and rest.



In November, his doctors found it advisable to perform another of the

minor operations. This time, he went to City Hospital, where in 1910 he had come

as an interne and where later, he and Bill had talked to "the third man." On

Wednesday, November 15, a day after the operation, an old friend called and

spoke to him. "Why, I'm just fine Abercrombie, just fine. . ."



Close to noontime on Thursday, November 16, 1950, he was resting. The

nurse in attendance stood by his bed, watching. . .waiting for any change that

might come. Dr. Bob, M.D., lifted his hand to the light. . .with professional

calm he studied the color. . .with a final confirming glance, he spoke. . ."You

had better call the family. . .this is it. . ."



--so reconciled with his brothers, he placed his gifts upon the alter and

went his way. .







Mel

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com



----- Original Message -----

From: shakey1aa

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:37 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950?





In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see

Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and

a phone number of UN-2436.



I also have a listing at the address for a

person named L J Knisely.



Was this person a relative of the Smith's or

perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder?

Does any one have any knowledge of this person?



Yours in Service

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4869 Phil
Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love Tom Powers and Betty Love 2/11/2008 1:27:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

Peter Tippett <petetippett@...> wrote:

>

> Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom

> Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of

> the 12x12, please?

>

> Thanks,

> Pete Tippett

>

The following information comes out of 'The

Soul of Sponsorship' The Friendship of Fr. Ed

Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters.

-- By Robert Fitzgerald, S.J....Hazelden

Pittman Archives Press... Chapter 9--The

Spiritual Exercises and the Traditions--

Pg.55-56



On May 20, 1952, Bill wrote to Dowling with

a draft copy of the 12 essays on the tradi-

tions...



"We'd very much like your criticisms on the

material enclosed. Do we run across the grain

of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the

writing style and is the structural situation

depicted in conformity with your observation

of AA?"



Bill mentioned he had good help from some

writers, Tom Powers,Betty Love, and Jack

Alexander.



He wanted Dowling's input,"no punches pulled,"

and ended the letter with a request for The

Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius.



Phil M. Denver area AA


0 -1 0 0
4870 arcchi88
Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat 2/13/2008 7:36:00 AM


Thanks for the kind response, I am familiar

with the fact that Father Ralph Pfau started

the retreat there. However, the retreat that

is going on there still is run by Evans Avenue

(I think) of Chicago.



They are apparently celebrating the 50th year

of holding these retreats this summer. I do

not know and have been unable to find any

history on how this retreat was started in

1958.



Of course there is a gap of ten or eleven

years between the start of retreats there

by Father Pfau. Did father Pfau hand it off

to Evans Ave or another group?



I haven't found any information that would

indicate that Father Pfau continued to have

the retreats at Saint Joseph's so far.



Any additional information is greatly

appreciated!



Thanks again,



Tom C.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "arcchi88" <arcchi88@...>

wrote:

>

> I was wondering if anyone has any history on

> a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's

> College in Rensselaer, Indiana.

>

> There have got to be some people who have

> attended in years past who can tell a story

> or two!!!

>

> If you have ever attended this retreat and

> have a story to tell, big or small, please

> pass it on!

>

> Thanks!

>

> Tom C.

>

> - - - -



From the moderator, Glenn C.

(South Bend, Indiana):



If the present retreat was started by the

Evans Avenue Group in Chicago, then have

you looked at this?



"Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-

South Bend Axis: The Stories and Memories

of Early Black Leaders Told in Their Own

Words"



http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack3.html



That article doesn't mention them having

retreats at Rensselaer, Indiana, but it

might give some background.



John Shaifer lived in Gary, Indiana, but was

connected with the Evans Avenue Group in

Chicago:



http://hindsfoot.org/ngary1js.html

http://hindsfoot.org/ngary2js.html



John went one of Father Ralph Pfau's retreats

every year for at least fifteen years, if my

memory is correct, at Gethsemani Abbey in

Kentucky, and did his fifth step with Father

Pfau. I don't know whether John went to the

retreat in Rensselaer, but I am sure that the

people who organized the Rensselaer retreat

would have known him, if they were from the

Evans Avenue Group.



So there might be a linkage (via that

connection) between Father Ralph's early

retreats and the Evans Avenue retreats.



Evans Avenue is still going strong, by the

way, or at least they were when I visited

there three or four years ago, although

they had moved their fellowship house from

its original location on Evans Avenue in

Chicago. They had a lot of valuable

archival materials there, which possibly

would have the answers to all your questions.



Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana


0 -1 0 0
4871 nats_attitude
They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/13/2008 10:11:00 AM


I was wondering if anyone can tell me what

the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem

to have been born that way" means in the

contextual form it was written in the fifth

chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."


0 -1 0 0
4873 hartsell
RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/14/2008 4:01:00 AM


Not capable of rigorous honesty.



If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for

sociopaths, or considers the term

"Congenital Liar" "born that way", one might

have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's

meaning in use of that phrase. Lest there

be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths",

it is generally understood that they may not

have a conscience, but can be "taught" one.



My old Sponsor might have answered with a

favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are

natural-born liars, they'll climb a tree to

tell a lie when they could stand on the

ground and tell the truth!" but then he also

contended that rigorous practice of and

adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure

that condition.



Sherry C.H.



- - - -



Original Message from: nats_attitude



I was wondering if anyone can tell me what

the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem

to have been born that way" means in the

contextual form it was written in the fifth

chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."


0 -1 0 0
4874 Arthur S
RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/14/2008 9:56:00 AM


I could be way off on this but on face value

there seems to be a high probability that it

contextually means:"They are not at fault;

they seem to have been born that way."



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



Original Message from: nats_attitude



I was wondering if anyone can tell me what

the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem

to have been born that way" means in the

contextual form it was written in the fifth

chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."


0 -1 0 0
4875 dino
Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/14/2008 12:27:00 PM


Was there ever a time in AA history where

certain groups or factions made an effort to

secede en masse?


0 -1 0 0
4876 Bill Lash
RE: AA in Vladivostok AA in Vladivostok 2/12/2008 9:33:00 AM


Is someone going to let Sergey know about

anonymity & that AA is NOT self-help? Thanks.



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill









-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of robin_foote

Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:18 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA in Vladivostok





Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok



This public association is a part of the World

community of anonymous alcoholics, which was

founded in 1935 in the USA



VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com

The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics

of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th

anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok"

writes.



The celebration of the anniversary and intro-

ducing the society will be held on Saturday at

noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum.



This public association is a part of the World

community of anonymous alcoholics, which was

founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members

are trained on the program "12 steps."



Every person can apply with his problem to

this association and get a free advice. In

these years thousands of Primorye residents

have found support. Everyone who came with

his own trouble could see that he is not lone

in this world. The trainings are held not only

with those who are tired of taking alcohol

or drugs, but also with their relatives.



"Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse

of his destructive vices," one of the members

of the group of self-help of anonymous

alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it

is never late to do the first step."



http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4877 corafinch
Re: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/16/2008 9:34:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"nats_attitude" <nats_attitude@...> wrote:

>

> I was wondering if anyone can tell me what

> the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem

> to have been born that way" means in the

> contextual form it was written in the fifth

> chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

>



It depends on what you mean by context. For

comparison, here is something form an article

on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the

July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it

close in time to the writing of the Big Book.

The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote

an article on AA for Harper's .



"It would be misleading to claim that all

forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or

any other method. Some human beings are so

naturally unequal to the conflicts of living

that, in the light of present knowledge, little

can be done for them except to protect them

from the disturbing issues which cause them to

drink. There are also the extreme cases, the

psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the

obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure

is problematical and is the business of the

psychiatrist and physician alone. For any

layman to attempt to explain such cases would

be dangerous; even the most distinguished

medical scientists still disagree about them.



"By far the greater number of heavy drinkers,

however, belong in a class whose ailment can

be more easily corrected. They are the men

and women--we all know them--in whom the habit

of excess has grown until their health, their

business, their home life, and their peace of

mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the

psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been

successful in healing them, mentions in his

book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem

drinkers." For them there is more than an even

chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of

mental therapy now being practiced by trained

psychologists who, through study and trial,

have brought it to a high level of efficacy."



The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as

a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his

experience "seldom did a child whose parents

maintained an intelligent attitude toward

him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when

Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho-

logists" she included some people who would be

considered lay therapists and who were also

known to the AA pioneers.



Cora


0 -1 0 0
4878 jenny andrews
RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/15/2008 4:29:00 AM


British criminal court judges used to follow

the McNaughton (I think that's how it's spelled)

rule which decreed that some accused were

incapable of entering a plea (guilty or not

guilty) to charges because they were unable

to distinguish between right and wrong

(psychopaths etc). I guess the accused had

to be diagnosed as such by a psychiatrist.



- - - -



From: hartsell@etex.net



Not capable of rigorous honesty.If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for

sociopaths, or considers the term "Congenital Liar" "born that way", one might

have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's meaning in use of that phrase. Lest

there be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths", it is generally understood

that they may not have a conscience, but can be "taught" one.My old Sponsor

might have answered with a favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are natural-born

liars, they'll climb a tree to tell a lie when they could stand on the ground

and tell the truth!" but then he alsocontended that rigorous practice of and

adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure that condition.Sherry C.H.



- - - -



Original Message from: nats_attitude



I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the phrase "They are not at fault;

they seem to have been born that way" means in the contextual form it was

written in the fifth chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."


0 -1 0 0
4879 DudleyDobinson@aol.com
Re: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/14/2008 3:12:00 PM


The English would call that a droll reply.

Nothing beats commons sense. What did Doctor

Bob say about Freudian complexes and looking

for hidden meanings? Keep it simple.

Be gentle to your minds



Dudley



- - - -



I could be way off on this but on face value

there seems to be a high probability that it

contextually means:"They are not at fault;

they seem to have been born that way."



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>

(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)



OH I LOVED THIS ANSWER.



Quite often, I think, many people try to read

between the lines of the Big Book, entirely

missing the obvious message of the little black

marks . . . the actual words. The message of

the book means exactly what those words say.



Perhaps searcching for an "easier softer way"

or at least an excuse? <GRIN>L



In my experience, Alcoholics Annonymous (the

Book) is a very simple approach for a compli-

cated people!



It says what it says. Period. No amount of

interpretation will change that, I think.

Nor does it need to.



Thanks for the good laugh, Arthur.



Hugs for the trudge.



Jon (Raleigh)

9/9/82



- - - -



From: "Murray Eaton" <meaton1287@rogers.com>

(meaton1287 at rogers.com)



I think Arthur S has summed it up concisely.



- - - -



Original Message from: nats_attitude



I was wondering if anyone can tell me what

the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem

to have been born that way" means in the

contextual form it was written in the fifth

chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."


0 -1 0 0
4880 Tom White
Re: Member introduction and group response Member introduction and group response 2/14/2008 3:49:00 PM


I came in NYC area in 1959. There were no

"Hi, Tom" cries then in that area. I first

bumped into the thing, I think in California

in the late 60s when visiting out there in

the Anaheim area. It was universal when I

got to Texas 20 years ago. And it doesn't

much bother me. Neither does the chanting at

the end, "It works if.. ."



But I admit to being positively annoyed by

people who in a small discussion meeting

insist on repeating, every time they speak,

tic-like, "My name is . . . and I'm an

alcoholic," apparently supposing since they

last talked two minutes ago we had all

forgotten that.



BTW I always use my full name since everybody

did in NYC in 1959. In this as in all else

I defer to the power of the individual group.

There appears to be no way to "fix" all this

from on High.



Tom W. Texas



- - - -



From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



Sgt. Bill W. told me that in the late

1940's and early 1950's, people in some AA

groups introduced themselves by saying "my

name is XXXXX" and then giving their sobriety

date. In other AA groups, they said "my name

is XXXXX and I'm an alcoholic."



He said that they did it the first way on Long

Island (in the New York City area) in the

late 1940's, and that, although he certainly

did not know how it was done all over the

country, he had the impression that saying

"I'm an alcoholic" was more midwestern.



Bill also clearly felt that people who went

around worrying all the time about saying

"exactly the right words" were totally

failing to understand the true spirit of

the AA program and the twelve steps, and

would get impatient with people who

fussed about that kind of thing too much.



(Since he was getting a 50% success rate

in his work with alcoholics at Lackland

in the 1950's, he presumably had some good

ideas about what was important and what was

not important.)



I would be interested in knowing if either

version (giving your sobriety date or saying

"I'm an alcoholic") was practiced in the

1930's and early 1940's. And if so, where?



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)



- - - -



From: "grault" <GRault@yahoo.com>

(GRault at yahoo.com)



I know from a New Orleans old-timer who

sobered up in New York City, that the

"Hi, ---!" response started as early as the

'60s I believe . . . certainly the "I'm

an alcoholic" introduction had long

preceded that. I heard long ago that it

was just a short way of "qualifying" for

being at a closed meeting. But all my

memories of what I've heard about it are

sketchy and very incomplete.



Gerry R.

New Orleans


0 -1 0 0
4881 Phil
Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat 2/14/2008 8:02:00 PM


About 12 Step Retreats: I'm not familiar with

your part of the country. Out west here,

Denver, Seattle, etc ... just look up Jesuit

Retreat House.



Jesuits are the Spiritual Order that Fr Ed

Dowling, Bill W's sponsor was. If you read

Pass It On...Bill's Story and the Story of

AA...You'll read about the first meeting

between Bill and his sponsor in 1940.



Fr. Ed traveled all the way from St. Louis

to New York to see if Bill intentionally

borrowed from the Spiritual Exercises of St

Ignatius (the founder of the Jesuit order)

to form the 12 Step Program of recovery.



Bill did not, but the Program is remarkably

the same as the Exercises. So the 12 step

Program has kind of been swallowed up by

the Jesuits. Almost anywhere you can find

a Jesuit Retreat House, you can find a 12

Step Retreat.



Phil M. Denver area AA


0 -1 0 0
4882 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/14/2008 11:07:00 AM


Didn't Session Mexico, in August of 1986,

comprising 2500 groups, secede from Mexican

GSO? I remember hearing about the Mexican

army confiscating the Big Books that were

printed without the approval of GSO in Mexico

and the Director of Session Mexico was put

in Mexican prison for a year. The GSO books

were costing too much for the average Mexican

AA member to afford so the thousand or so

groups in Mexico City broke away and printed

Big Books that were affordable. My under-

standing is that Mexican GSO had the approval

of GSO in New York City To do so. Perhaps an

AAHL past delegate, during or about that

time period, can elaborate on this sad day

in AA history.



Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, Pa

Going to Niagara Falls NY in Sept.



- - - -



From: "Phil" <ez4me2phil@yahoo.com>

(ez4me2phil at yahoo.com)



It is happening now in the Denver area. They

call themselves "Celebrate Recovery,"

"Overcomers Outreach," and "Recovery in

Christ," etc.... They are usually Protestants

that have a problem with the pluralism of AA,

i.e. "your own conception of God," Ebby's

message to Bill.



I find them in almost every meeting in Denver.

They prey on the fallen away Catholics and

the agnostics mostly. They try and sell them-

selves as modern versions of the Oxford Groups.

Forgetting AA history and all the things that

went down in Cleveland when AA broke away from

the Oxford groups' radical Protestant evan-

gelization.



If you end up at one of their meetings they

use things like the Recovery Bible. It is a

watered-down Protestant Bible with a lot of

pychobabble on how to self-interpret the Bible

in a recovery context.



The meetings are filled with lots of AA bashing

and talk of saving those poor fools in AA.

Things like if we only knew Christ the way

they do we wouldn't need a recovery program.



- - - -



From the moderator:



On Mexico, please, do a search on our message

board for the word "Mexico." We had literally

dozens of messages on this topic almost

exactly a year ago. See for example Messages

4168, 4161, 4157, 4154, 4150, 4149, 4132,

4131, 4115, 4114, 4093, etc.



I think everything useful that can be said

on this topic has already been said. But

Mike is right, this would be an example of

a major internal AA schism.



We should also remember that groups like

All Addictions Anonymous were essentially

groups which "seceded" from AA in the sense

of groups which got together to form their

own national organizations which were

separate from the New York GSO-centered

organization:



http://www.alladdictionsanonymous.com/



And if you look at the list of twelve step

groups at



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Twelve-Step_groups



Did these groups "secede" from AA? In part,

this is a matter of how you define the word

secede.



And how about Moderation Management's

nine step program?



http://www.moderation.org/



And Life Ring Secular Recovery?



http://www.unhooked.com/index.htm



It depends in part on how you define the

term "secede," since they were definitely

started by people who were unhappy with

at least some of the AA program, and

thought they had a better way of setting

up groups for recovery from alcoholism.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
4883 terry walton
Re: Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/15/2008 10:24:00 AM


Yes, it happens daily with a resentment and

a coffee pot.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"dino" <lauraoshea@...> wrote:

>

> Was there ever a time in AA history where

> certain groups or factions made an effort to

> secede en masse?


0 -1 0 0
4884 jlobdell54
Psychiatrists and the McNaghten Rule Psychiatrists and the McNaghten Rule 2/18/2008 8:05:00 AM


It would not be the evidence of a psychiatrist

that would be dispositive as to whether a

defendant was sane. Determination of sanity

under McNaghten is, so far as I know, the

province of the jury deciding matters of fact,

and there were no psychiatrists nor any science

of psychiatry when McNaghten was first

established.



Of course psychiatric testimony would be heard

-- is heard -- but only as a part of the

process of determining whether the defendant

knew right from wrong, on which psychiatrists

may perhaps not be the most expert witnesses.


0 -1 0 0
4885 mrpetesplace
History info History info 2/17/2008 10:35:00 AM


Locally we are having a workshop and I was

asked to participate. The theme is "Grassroots

of AA". So in preparation I'm trying to locate

a few items I saw in the past but can't seem

to find them anymore.



An AA Bulletin from November 14, 1940



Typed documents that I believed to be from NY

with meetings listed in various cities and

states including from North Carolina. These

were dated December 1941 and September 1942

I believe.



These were posted on a site called

archivesinternational.org at one time and

I had them bookmarked but the site is down

now.



The other item I'm looking for is a recording

from the mid 1940's. It is a video from a

"March of Times" series I believe. I've seen

several 'clips' but never the whole thing, I

figured it might be about 15-20 minutes long

but might be way off. I am hoping to find

these documents and video in by the first

week of April for our afternoon workshop.



Thank you in advance for any help.



Respectfully, Peter F.



<peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)


0 -1 0 0
4886 Jon Markle
Re: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/16/2008 10:30:00 PM


This one phrase from the Big Book has been a

bulwark for me.



I work as a clinician on a specialized team

which treats people who suffer from chronic,

cyclical, severe, persistent mental illness

and who have a long history of substance abuse

and/or addictions. Most of the patients I see

have been kicked out of AA meetings because

they cannot adapt to the expectations of the

groups they attempt. They are "constitution-

ally incapable" by most AA member's standards

and are not welcome at meetings.



By the same token, they also have been kicked

out of clinics and hospitals . . . in other

words, they are those that most of society has

given up on. They are homeless and hopeless

when they come to us.



I am happy to report that we have seen huge

successes, miracles, in people who have other-

wise been cast aside as hopeless. And we have

attributed part of that to networking with a

couple of local AA meetings over the years.

Many of my clients have been able to become

active and productively engaged in meetings

and home groups now.



If I can find even one little shred of

"honesty" -- no matter about what -- I know

that the miracle of recovery can happen.



Hugs for the trudge.



Jon (Raleigh)

9/9/82





On Feb 16, 2008, at 9:34 AM, corafinch wrote:



> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

> "nats_attitude" <nats_attitude@...> wrote:

>>

>> I was wondering if anyone can tell me what

>> the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem

>> to have been born that way" means in the

>> contextual form it was written in the fifth

>> chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

>>

>

> It depends on what you mean by context. For

> comparison, here is something form an article

> on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the

> July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it

> close in time to the writing of the Big Book.

> The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote

> an article on AA for Harper's .

>

> "It would be misleading to claim that all

> forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or

> any other method. Some human beings are so

> naturally unequal to the conflicts of living

> that, in the light of present knowledge, little

> can be done for them except to protect them

> from the disturbing issues which cause them to

> drink. There are also the extreme cases, the

> psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the

> obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure

> is problematical and is the business of the

> psychiatrist and physician alone. For any

> layman to attempt to explain such cases would

> be dangerous; even the most distinguished

> medical scientists still disagree about them.

>

> "By far the greater number of heavy drinkers,

> however, belong in a class whose ailment can

> be more easily corrected. They are the men

> and women--we all know them--in whom the habit

> of excess has grown until their health, their

> business, their home life, and their peace of

> mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the

> psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been

> successful in healing them, mentions in his

> book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem

> drinkers." For them there is more than an even

> chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of

> mental therapy now being practiced by trained

> psychologists who, through study and trial,

> have brought it to a high level of efficacy."

>

> The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as

> a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his

> experience "seldom did a child whose parents

> maintained an intelligent attitude toward

> him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when

> Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho-

> logists" she included some people who would be

> considered lay therapists and who were also

> known to the AA pioneers.

>

> Cora

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
4887 jenny andrews
RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/17/2008 10:48:00 AM


This article, headed "Rarely Not Never",

appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share",

the monthly magazine published by the UK

AA General Service Board:-



"Bristol Fashion" was a newsletter founded and

edited by members of the Bristol Newcomers AA

group (in Gloucestershire, England). This

extract is reprinted with grateful acknowledg-

ment.



"Bristol Fashion" is indebted to Nell Wing,

Bill W's non-alcoholic secretary and AA's

first archivist, for supplying observations

of our co-founder when questioned as to the

word "Rarely" in chapter five, "How It Works",

of the Big Book.



Excerpt from (Bill's) first letter: "Respecting

my use of the word 'rarely', I think it was

chosen because it did not express an absolute

state of affairs, such as 'never' does. Anyhow

we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely'.

My few efforts to change the wording of the AA

book have always come to naught - the protests

are always too many."



In another letter Bill wrote: "Concerning your

comment about the use of the word 'rarely' in

chapter five of the Big Book. My recollection

is that we did give this considerable thought

at the time of writing. I think the main reason

for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid

anything that would look like a claim to a

100 per cent result. Assuming of course that

an alcoholic is sane enough and willing enough,

there can be a perfect score ... But since

willingness and sanity are such elusive and

fluctuating values, we simply didn't like to

be too positive. The medical profession would

jump right down our throats. Then, too, we have

seen people who apparently have tried their

very best, and then failed. Not because of

unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of

physical tension or some undisclosed quirk,

not known to them or anyone else. Neither did

we want to over-encourage relatives and friends

in the supposition that their dear ones could

surely get well in AA if only they were willing.

I think that's why we chose that word. I

remember thinking about it quite a lot. Maybe

some of these same reasons would apply to the

present conditions. Anyhow, I know this: the

text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds

of tens of thousands of AA's that even the

slightest change creates an uproar."



Nell Wing and Frank M., her successor as

archivist at GSO, New York, visited Britain

at "Bristol Fashion's" invitation in the

1990s. The newsletter ceased publication a

few years ago...


0 -1 0 0
4888 Sober186@aol.com
Re: Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/16/2008 6:06:00 PM


Yes, I have heard several such reports. One

is contained in A.A. History, Hank Parkhurst

-- New York's A.A.#2. Unfortunately Hank went

back out and on a long bender.



Then, according to this history, "Soon Hank

went to Ohio and began spreading vicious tales

attacking Bill Wilson. Bill was grateful that

Dr. Bob and Anne Smith disbelieved his stories,

but many, especially Clarence Snyder and

Henrietta Seiberling (who had never liked Bill)

did believe Hank's tales. In Cleveland, some

started calling for Bill's exclusion from

Alcoholics Anonymous and even accused him of

financial trickery.



In New York, they began hearing about several

Cleveland groups that wanted to secede and

break off all connection with Bill Wilson's

brand of AA."



Source: http://www.barefootsworld.net/aany2hankp.html



While the word "secede" is difficult to find

in any literature, what happened between the

Akron contingent and those who formed a new

group in Cleveland, certainly has all the

earmarks of secession.



"A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact

existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the

Cleveland meeting which first used the name

Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the

book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the

first documented meeting which used the name

Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from

the Oxford Group.



According to the records of the Cleveland

Central Committee's Recording Statistician,

Norman E. (which were compiled in the middle

of June 1942) the following took place:



On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron

meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G.

group. The location of the group was 2345

Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland,

Ohio. The sponsors of the group were;

Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D.,

Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J.,

and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group

was Clarence Snyder .... The first A.A.

meeting in the world was not uneventful.

According to Clarence, the entire group from

Akron showed up the next night and tried to

"discourage" the Cleveland meeting from

happening. Discourage was a very mild term,

according to Clarence; and he used it

sarcastically. He said: "The whole group

descended upon us and tried to break up our

meeting. One guy was gonna whip me. I want you

to know that this was all done in pure

Christian love. A.A. started in riots.

It rose in riots."



Source: http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html



Love and serve



Jim L.


0 -1 0 0
4889 Tom Hickcox
Re: RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/18/2008 5:39:00 PM


At 09:48 2/17/2008 , jenny andrews wrote:





>This article, headed "Rarely Not Never",

>appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share",

>the monthly magazine published by the UK

>AA General Service Board:-

>



I would note that the same material was covered in an article in the

December 1978, Grapevine, titled "Rarely--or Never?"



It is available online at the Grapevine site. [Subscription required]



<http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/article.php?id=79179&tb=2ZGE9ZHQlM0ExOTc4XzEy

JnBnPTQ=>



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4890 Glenn Chesnut
God and Spirituality God and Spirituality 2/18/2008 5:51:00 PM


Glenn F. Chesnut, "God and Spirituality:

Philosophical Essays," January 2008, see

http://hindsfoot.org/philos.html



Full text of the book is now available on

line at http://hindsfoot.org/kperson1.html


0 -1 0 0
4891 Tom Hickcox
Re: Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/18/2008 9:45:00 PM


At 22:06 2/16/2008 , Sober186@aol.com wrote:

>

>On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron

>meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G.

>group. The location of the group was 2345

>Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland,

>Ohio. The sponsors of the group were;

>Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D.,

>Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J.,

>and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group

>was Clarence Snyder ....



All these names but Lloyd T are consistent

with names on the First 226 Members of the

Akron Group and have Cleveland addresses:



Al G Albert Goldrich

Chas J Charles Johns

Lee L Lee Loria

Geo. J. McD George McDermott

Dr. Harry N Dr. Harry Nash

Vaughn P Vaughn Phelps

Lloyd T not listed

Clarence Snyder



For me it helps establish the veracity of the list.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4892 David LeBlanc
Dr.''s Opinion Dr.''s Opinion 2/19/2008 12:01:00 AM


In the Dr's opinion

in the Big book he

describes a patient

that accepted the ideas

in this book and

returned a year later a

changed man. In the

original letter the Dr.

identified the patient

as Bill W. Does anyone

know who made this

change and when?

David


0 -1 0 0
4893 Jay Lawyer
RE: Dr.''s Opinion Dr.''s Opinion 2/19/2008 1:44:00 PM


If I am not mistaken in this particular passage

the Doctor is/was talking about Henry Parkhurst.



Jay Lawyer <ejlawyer@midtel.net>



- - - -



Message 4892 from "David LeBlanc"

<Inkman3@webtv.net> (Inkman3 at webtv.net)



In the Dr's opinion in the Big book he

describes a patient that accepted the ideas

in this book and returned a year later a

changed man. In the original letter the Dr.

identified the patient as Bill W. Does anyone

know who made this change and when?

David



- - - -



From the moderator:



Yeah, this would have to be Hank Parkhurst.



I think David is getting Bill Wilson (who

is talked about on pages xxv and xxvii)

confused with the two people who appear

on page xxxi: Hank Parkhurst and Fitz Mayo.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)





THE DOCTOR'S OPINION (began on page 1 in the

first edition of the Big Book, begins on

page xxv in the present fourth edition)



(p. xxv-xxxii) the well known doctor was Dr.

William D. Silkworth, who worked at Towns

Hospital in New York City.



(p. xxv) the patient he regarded as hopeless

was Bill Wilson.



(p. xxvi) "We believe and so so suggested a

few years ago" in an article in the Lancet

in 1937.



(p. xxvii) "many years' experience" meant

nine years that Dr. Silkworth had been there.



(p. xxvii) "one of the leading contributors to

this book" referred to Bill Wilson.



(p. xxxi) the man brought in to be treated

for chronic alcoholism was Hank Parkhurst.

His story "The Unbeliever" appeared in the

1st ed.



(p. xxxi) the man who had hidden in a barn

was Fitz Mayo. His story in the BB is "Our

Southern Friend."


0 -1 0 0
4894 Roger K
Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/19/2008 5:21:00 PM


I have a group member who is looking for a

reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody

know if Bill W. talked about emotional,

financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA with

a reference on dealing with same?



Roger K


0 -1 0 0
4895 Tom Hickcox
Second Edition Big Book Codes Second Edition Big Book Codes 2/19/2008 9:20:00 PM


A new friend piqued my interest in the codes

that appear on the back flaps of the Second

Edition Big Book dust jackets [DJ].



I did some investigating and put together the

following incomplete table:





Code A.A. Membership,

Front Flap

1st

2nd

3rd 250k

4th 300k

5th 300k

6th 50M663 (C) 300k

7th 50M365 (C) 350k

8th 50M666 (C) 300k

9th 60M11/67 (C) 350K

10th 60M4/69 (C) 400k

11th 65M9/70 (C) 475k

12th 40M3/71 (C) 475k

13th 100M1/72 (C) 500k

14th 100M2/73 (C) 575k

15th 650k

16th



I have been told that there are no codes for

the first five and last two.



It has been suggested that the number preceding

the M in the code is the number in thousands

of books printed in that printing.



The numbers were gleaned from DJs in my collec-

tion plus info from friends. Unfortunately,

many of my DJs are facsimiles and don't have

the codes.



Is it accurate that just the 6th thru the

14th have codes?



Would someone provide the membership numbers

for the three printings missing them? Are

the other numbers correct?



Answers will be appreciated.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4896 Peter Tippett
Fulton Oursler Fulton Oursler 2/21/2008 5:49:00 PM


Can anybody give me a "Reader's Digest" (no pun

intended) version of how Fulton Ourlser became

such an advocate of early AA and any influences

he may have had on AA?



Thanks,

Pete Tippett


0 -1 0 0
4897 Gary Becktell
Citadel Citadel 2/21/2008 4:28:00 AM


Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the

Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?





"The word got out that there were a bunch of

fools who wouldn't give you anything for food

or a bed, but they would give you some change

if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us,

and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It

so happened that the first one we got sober

was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and

they thought we were wonderful."


0 -1 0 0
4898 johnlaurance1
Re: Member introduction and group response Member introduction and group response 2/20/2008 6:21:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"Michael G." <gildell@...> wrote:

>

> I can speak to the situation in the greater

> Boston area. Prior to the summer of 1976,

> individuals seldom would respond to an

> introduction in most groups.



In central Pennsylvania there was no response

to the introduction until the very early '80's.



Now, Overeaters Anonymous was another matter.

They were not only "Hi"-ing back, they were

requiring that members introduce themselves

over and over, complete with the return "Hi's"

every time they opened their mouths. I found

it really excessive and unnecessary.



> The Young

> People's international of 1976 in Philadelphia

> seemed to serve as a real "jump start" for

> the practice. Within a year of that conference,

> it was not uncommon to hear "Hi xxx" in

> response to an introduction at many groups

> in the Boston area.



Thank you. I didn't know that. In Pennsylvania

we were told it was "the California Style". We

were supposedly doing things the way they were

done in California.



> As I recall, when I was first sober in Chicago,

> and later in central Illinois in '73 - '75 no

> one would respond to an introduction by saying

> hi.



Ditto in Pennsylvania.



> Q. Can you describe something that's changed

> since you've been in A.A.?



There was no "ninety in ninety", since in those

days there weren't meetings every day.



No special things were done for newcomers. My

first meeting was step 6. I sat and listened.



By the early '80's if a newcomer came in, we'd

discuss step one. If a newcomer was doing

ninety in ninety and going to a meeting every

day, anyone else going to that same meeting

would be doing step one over and over and over.



Johnny L.


0 -1 0 0
4899 Nicole
Re:Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/20/2008 6:44:00 PM


Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory.

If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then

we are sure to drink...this is our experience.



Nicole


0 -1 0 0
4900 Sober186@aol.com
Re: Dr.''s Opinion Dr.''s Opinion 2/20/2008 6:16:00 PM


David:



An "Original Manuscript" of the Big Book is

sold in the gift shop at Dr. Bob's house in

Akron. The publication sold claims to be

"an exact reproduction of Clarence Snyder's"

(The Home Brewmeister's) copy of the manuscript

used to compile the Big Book.



By the way, in this Doctor's Opinion, there are

no names used. Even the doctor's name is not

used.



The doctor writes: "About four years ago,

one of the leading contributors to this book

came under our care in this hospital"......etc.

(Page 2, Paragraph 6.)



That is as close as it comes to naming any

names.



The doctor also describes what happened with a

man brought to the hospital who had been living

in a barn, and the says the man became "sold"

on the ideas in this book and did not have a

drink for three years. But again, there is no

name used. (Page 6, paragraph 6.)



Love and Serve



Jim L.


0 -1 0 0
4901 James Blair
Re: Citadel Citadel 2/22/2008 4:05:00 PM


> Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the

> Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?



Salvation Army building



Jim Blair


0 -1 0 0
4902 lqd8rflp@aol.com
RE: 2nd Edition Printings 2nd Edition Printings 2/21/2008 12:28:00 PM


Here is a complete listing of 2nd Edition

printings that came from Frank Mauser some

years ago.



PRINTING DATE COPIES MEMBERS GROUPS

1st 7/55 40,000 150,000 6,000

2nd 5/57 40,000 150,000 6,000

3rd 1959 40,000 250,000 7,000

4th 1960 40,000 300,000 8,000

5th 4/62 40,000 300,000 9,000

6th 6/63 50,000 300,000 10,000

7th 3/65 50,000 350,000 11,000

8th 6/66 50,000 350,000 12,000

9th 11/67 60,000 350,000 12,000

10th 4/69 60,000 425,000 14,000

11th 9/70 65,000 475,000 15,000

12th 3/71 40,000 475,000 15,000

13th 1/72 100,000 500,000 16,000

14th 2/73 100,000 575,000 18,000

15th 1973 150,000 575,000 18,000

16th 1974 150,000 725,000 22,000





Regards,

John



JOHN HAGER

CELL-317-504-7397

E-MAIL-LQD8RFLP@AOL.COM



- - - -



From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>

(lgother at optonline.net)



Tom

This is what I have to add from my collection The code for the 4th

printing is as follows: 50m-663(c) There is no code on the first 3

printings as they were published by A.A. Publishing Inc., and the 4th

printing was the first to be published by A.A. World Services, Inc. The

9th printing I have states 50m-11/67 (c), The rest I believe to be

correct. Hope this helps Tom.



Service

Lester Gother

Northern New Jersey



- - - -



From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com

(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)



Hi Tommy, I have a complete collection of?Second editions?with original DJ's and

your list of Third through Fifteenth matches mine. The First & Second both give

membership at 150,000 whilst the Sixteenth shows 725,000.

One point of interest: the Third printing had an error in stating that it was

for the THIRD edition. Consequently the majority was sold with no DJ's and One

with is a collector's item and very expensive.



In fellowship - Dudley


0 -1 0 0
4903 Marsha Finley
RE: Citadel Citadel 3/21/2008 4:57:00 PM


The Citadel is a military college in South

Carolina. It is also one the colleges con-

sidered an "Ivy league" of the South.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_(Military_College)



- - - -



-----Original Message-----



Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the

Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?



"The word got out that there were a bunch of

fools who wouldn't give you anything for food

or a bed, but they would give you some change

if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us,

and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It

so happened that the first one we got sober

was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and

they thought we were wonderful."



- - - -



From the moderator:



The above passage is from page 248 in Dr. Bob

and the Good Oldtimers. It is describing

events in Cleveland, Ohio (not Charlestown,

South Carolina) in 1942.



It is describing how the early Cleveland AA's

started standing outside the Salvation Army

and giving people a nickle or a dime to buy

a drink or some cigarettes. They figured

they had to get people's trust first.



They finally got three men to trust them

enough to let them bring them into the Citadel

(the Salvation Army building), where the

good Salvation Army people could start

carrying out the sobering up process on

them.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_Army_corps



"A Salvation Army corps is a church and place

of worship in The Salvation Army. In keeping

with Salvationist convention in using military

terminology, corps are casually known as

barracks. Many corps are additionally called

temples or citadels.



I was able to find a web page for the Akron,

Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel (with a photo of

the building) at:



http://www.use.salvationarmy.org/use/www_use_neo.nsf/ce952dea4507ee7780256cf4005\

d2254/36a9553c9ae1b69280256e3900674c2b?OpenDocument




But I was unable to find a photo of the

Cleveland, Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel. Maybe

somebody in Cleveland could tell us what its

address was back in 1942.



Anyway, they weren't taking these down and

out winos and bums and enrolling them in an

elite military college. They were talking

them into the Salvation Army building where

the Salvation Army folks could start

detoxing them.



Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana


0 -1 0 0
4904 Bill Lash
Re: Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/22/2008 7:12:00 PM


That's actually page 70.





-----Original Message-----



Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory.

If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then

we are sure to drink...this is our experience.



Nicole


0 -1 0 0
4905 jenny andrews
RE: Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/23/2008 12:57:00 PM


Dr Bob wrote "... we naturally have had our

share of those who fail to measure up to

certain obvious standards of conduct. They

have included schemers for personal gain,

petty swindlers and confidence men, crooks

of various kinds, and other human fallibles.

Relatively, their number has been small ...

yet they have been a problem and not an easy

one. They have caused many an AA to stop

thinking and working contructively for a time."



(Grapevine, September 1948, reprinted in

"Best of the Grapevine, volume 2).



- - - -



Original message:



I have a group member who is looking for a

reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody

know if Bill W. talked about emotional,

financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA

with a reference on dealing with same?



Roger K


0 -1 0 0
4906 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/23/2008 4:56:00 PM


There were people, believe it or not, whose

morals were bad and the respectable alcoholics

of that time shook their heads and said,

"surely these immoral people are going to

render us asunder." Little Red Riding Hood and

the bad wolves began to abound. Ah yes, could

our society last?



(Transcribed from tape. Chicago, Illinois,

February 1951).



I am sure that there are more references, but

I cannot find them at the moment.



- - - -



From the moderator: there is more about this

in Messages 50, 3562, 3568, and 3575.


0 -1 0 0
4907 Bill Lash
RE: Fulton Oursler Fulton Oursler 2/24/2008 8:52:00 AM


I don't know if this is helpful toward what

you are looking for but...





High Praise for the Charm

of Recovering Alcoholics



There are times when I wish I were an alcoholic.

I mean I wish I were a member of Alcoholics

Anonymous. The reason is that I consider the

AA people the most charming in the world.



Such is my considered opinion. As a journalist,

it has been my privilege to meet many people

who are considered charming. I number among my

friends stars and lesser lights on stage and

cinema; writers are my daily diet; I know

ladies and gentlemen of both political parties;

I have been entertained in the White House;

I've broken bread with kings, ambassadors and

ministers; and I say that I would prefer an

evening with my AA friends to any person I've

indicated.



I asked myself why I considered so charming

these alcoholic caterpillars who have found

their butterfly wings in AA. There are more

reasons than one, but I can name a few. The

AA people are what they are, and they are

what they were, because they are sensitive,

imaginative, possessed of a sense of humor,

an awareness of the universal truth. They are

sensitive, which means they are hurt easily,

and that helped them become alcoholics. But

when they found their restoration they are as

sensitive as ever; responsive to the beauty

and the truth and eager about the intangible

glories of this life. That makes them

charming companions.



They are possessed of a sense of universal

truth that is often new in their heart. This

fact that this at-one moment with God's universe

had never been awakened within them is the

reason they drink. They have found a power

greater than themselves, which they diligently

serve. And that gives them a charm that never

was elsewhere on the land and sea; it makes

you know that God is charming, because the AA

people reflect his mercy and forgiveness.



They are imaginative, and that helped make them

alcoholics. Some of them drank to flog their

imaginations onto greater efforts. Others

guzzled only to block out unendurable visions

that arose in their imaginations. But when

they found their restorations, their imagina-

tion is responsive to new incantations and

their talk abounds with color and might, and

that makes them charming companions, too.



They are possessed a sense of humor. Even in

their cups they have known to be damnably

funny. Often it was being forced to take

seriously the little and mean things of life

that made them seek their escape in the bottle.

But when they found their restoration, their

sense of humor finds a blessed freedom and they

are able to laugh at themselves, the very height

of self-conquest. Go to their meetings and

listen to their laughter. At what are they

laughing? At ghoulish memories over which

weaker souls would cringe in useless remorse.

And that makes them wonderful people to be with

by candlelight.



by Fulton Oursler



(Fulton Oursler was a magazine editor, religious

author, and Hollywood screenwriter, and was an

early Oxford Group member and friend to AA. He

passed away in the year 1952. His official

relationship with AA is as follows: Sept. 30,

1939, the very popular weekly Liberty Magazine,

headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a piece

titled "Alcoholics and God" by Morris Markey

(who was influenced to write the article by

Charles Towns). It generated about 800

inquiries from around the nation. Oursler

(author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became

good friends with Bill W and later served as a

Trustee and member of the Grapevine editorial

board. In Oct. 1949, Dr. William D. Silkworth

and Fulton Oursler joined the Alcoholic

Foundation Board.)


0 -1 0 0
4908 Alex H.
RE: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/25/2008 2:09:00 PM


> HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter.

> I have been sending her copies of the informa-

> tion in here about her mother.



FYI, Sybil's husband, Bob C., is still alive.

My buddy, Matt M., tells me Bob's health has

been failing. Bob is still sponsoring Matt so

to speak. It seems like Matt is helping Bob

more than Bob is helping Matt though.



They were an amazing couple as Matt tells it.

Matt is somewhat amazing himself but don't

tell him I said so. :-)



Alex H.


0 -1 0 0
4909 John Lee
Re: RE: Citadel Citadel 2/25/2008 8:45:00 PM


Glenn,



No such place as Charlestown, South Carolina.

The historic city which hosts The Citadel is

Charleston.



john lee



- - - -



Sorry, y'all.



Glenn


0 -1 0 0
4910 wsmaugham21
Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks 2/24/2008 12:07:00 PM


Hello fellow Drunks!



Anyone out there have information on the photo

of the AA folks wearing Lone Ranger Masks, and

a web site where I might be able to get a copy

of it?



Love and Service, Dirk


0 -1 0 0
4911 Jonathan Rose
Re: Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks 2/25/2008 9:28:00 PM


From the moderator: there are apparently at

least two such photos, one showing some AA

members in Dayton, Ohio, and another showing

some AA members in Madison, Wisconsin. And

there was also apparently a third case where

masks like this were worn, for a television

show in Detroit, Michigan, in the 1950's.



- - - -



From: "jbuckrose" <jbuckrose1@mac.com>

(jbuckrose1 at mac.com)



Here's what you might be looking for. The web

source is:



http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm



The photo is about halfway down the webpage,

with the caption underneath:



"Dayton OH Members, 1942



Members wore masks: to protect their anonymity,

members of the Dayton, Ohio, AA chapter donned

masks while posing for the press in 1942."



in service,

Buck R.



- - - -



From: "Robert Stonebraker"

<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>

(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)



One source is the "Archives Scrapbook - 1939

to 1942." There is a large picture of

Madison, Wisconsin, AAs wearing masks. This

huge, rather pricey, scrapbook ($75) makes

a wonderful display feature.



GSO Service material #M42, on page 8.



Bob S.



PS - I have seen a similar picture from Dayton,

Ohio.



- - - -



From: "JOHN WIKELIUS" <nov85@graceba.net>

(nov85 at graceba.net)



GSO sells two different scrapbooks of very old

news releases and I believe that you will find

those pictures in there.



- - - -



From: David Jones <jonesd926@aol.com>

(jonesd926 at aol.com)



I have this from the site silkworth.net ...

alas no photo.



*VI. Mr. Hope TV Show*



In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called

"MR. HOPE" in which AA members appeared wearing

Lone Ranger masks who told their stories. The

masks were worn to protect their identities.

The program aired at noon on Sundays.



One of our current members (1998), Bill B., was

on the show a couple of times along with the

Police Commissioner and some Judges.



God bless

Dave



- - - -



From: Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



http://www.hindsfoot.org/detr0.html on early

Detroit AA history:



RADIO PROGRAM



On March 5, 1945, Time magazine reported that

Detroit's WWJ radio station was running broad-

casts by AA members in a radio program called

"The Glass Crutch":



Alcoholics on the Air

Time, March 5, 1945



One of Detroit's citizens stepped up to the

microphone one night last week and told how he

had "hit bottom" as an alcoholic. To underline

his confession, some of the more melodramatic

and sordid aspects of his past were dramatized.

Then he told of his regeneration. Summed up

the Announcer: "Alcoholism is a disease ...

an obsession ... an allergy ... " The man who

"hit bottom" was the first in a parade of

anonymous Detroiters who will describe their

alcoholic pasts over WWJ every Saturday

(11:15-11:30 p.m. E.W.T.). The series is the

first sustained air flight of the famed orga-

nization called "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Time,

Oct. 23, 1944). Detroit AA's give credit for

the broadcast project to 62-year-old William

Edmund Scripps, big boss of the Detroit News

and WWJ. He was so impressed by AA's reform-

ation of a drunkard friend that he decided to

do what he could to boost the organization's

Detroit membership (now nearly 400).



THE MR. HOPE TV SHOW



In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called

"Mr. Hope," aired at noon on Sundays, in which

AA members appeared wearing Lone Ranger masks

and told their stories. The masks were worn to

protect their identities.


0 -1 0 0
4912 grault
Introduction as alcoholic and group response Introduction as alcoholic and group response 2/28/2008 6:11:00 AM


Thanks all. Responses vary widely, depending

on area of the country. In some areas the

identification "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic"

didn't arise until the 1960s or even more

recently, and the response "Hi, xxx" came later,

in the 70s or 80s. At the other extreme,

apparently in Quebec both the intro and the

group's response were universal at meetings as

early as the early 1950s.



Gerry R.

New Orleans


0 -1 0 0
4914 George Ewing
Seeking volunteers to help with AA history search engine Seeking volunteers to help with AA history search engine 3/7/2008 10:21:00 AM


I've been a lurking member of this list for a couple

of years now. This is my first post, I think, in that

time.



I'm the webmaster of malverncenter.org, an AA

clubhouse in Malvern, PA. We are in the Philadelphia

suburbs and are blessed with a wide range of AA

meetings of all kinds. Our site gets a lot of traffic,

mostly from people looking for meeting times, as well

as phone numbers of treatment facilities and the like.



Because of this traffic, I've been trying to add

content to the site that is of a general nature about

AA, above and beyond meeting times. I've added a

Google Custom Search Engine that is dedicated to the

history of AA. Think of it as an invitation to search

terms specific to AA history.



Google allows me to solicit volunteers to contribute

to the search engine by adding relevant sites to its

results, and by labeling certain results with

appropriate comments. The volunteer is like a curator

of the search results.



If anyone is interested in contributing to the custom

search on our site, please email me off list at

facilities at malverncenter.org. Thank in advance for

any volunteers.



George



George Ewing <gedit123@yahoo.com> (gedit123 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4915 pbers_11
Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/10/2008 4:36:00 PM


I am looking for actual resources of the use

of the Little Red book in early years. I have

seen on the Web that "the AA foundation appoved

of its use" and I am trying to find resources

to support this.



Thank you



Yours in Service



Paula D


0 -1 0 0
4916 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/11/2008 4:12:00 PM


The Little Red Book was published by "the

Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins

(an important early figure in Minneapolis

A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April

14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for

publishing it themselves. They were fellow

members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.



A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at

the New York A.A. headquarters (then called

the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,

1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,

gives their full approval to the idea of

Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.

pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis

A.A. people had written themselves:



"Dear Barry:

. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the

new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a

host of others are all local projects. We do

not actually approve or disapprove of these

local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-

tion feels each Group is entitled to write up

its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its

own merits. All of them have good points and

very few have caused any controversy. But as

in all things of a local nature, we keep hands

off, either pro or con. I think there must be

at least 25 local pamphlets now being used

and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some

good points. I think it is up to each indivi-

dual Group whether it wants to use and buy

these pamphlets from the Group that puts

them out.

Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"



When The Little Red Book did come out, its use

in A.A. meetings had the full approval both

of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.

Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as

we have already noted, but in addition, Jack

H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed

Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending

large numbers of copies of The Little Red

Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the

country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed

Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the

New York A.A. office was regularly ordering

quantities of The Little Red Book for resale

in New York.



Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the

Minneapolis book in November 1950:



"The Little Red Book does fill a definite

need and has wide circulation. Therefore,

its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a

definite place for such a book. Someday I

may try to write an introduction book myself

which I hope might complement favorably with

The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation

we are not policemen; we're a service and

AAs are free to read any book they choose."

____________________



SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html


0 -1 0 0
4917 pbers_11
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/11/2008 4:26:00 PM


In what resources have you found this data?



- - - -



Please read all of the article that was cited:



http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html



Down towards the bottom it says:



"Bill Pittman, in the introduction to the

Hazelden Anniversary Edition (the reprinting

in 1996 of the 1949 edition of The Little Red

Book), gave the text of Bobby Burger's letter."



Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) contacted the

New York AA Archives and discovered that Bill

Pittman had added one phrase to the letter

without indicating that he had added it:



"as is Nicollet’s 'An Interpretation

of the Twelve Steps'"



The version given on the Hindsfoot site is

the letter as Jack H. found it to be in the

New York AA Archives.



There is more about the Pittman Anniversary

Edition at:



http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html

____________________



The other sources of this information:



Jack H. got Ed Webster's papers from Ed's

daughter, so much of the other information

comes from letters and billing information

and other documents in those papers: i.e.,

records of repeated orders from the New York

AA office for another box of copies of The

Little Red Book. Jack also has copies of

various editions of The Little Red Book with

handwritten suggestions from Dr. Bob for

rewording sentences or adding additional

comments. Jack H. also made a detailed

study of the Minneapolis AA archives, with

the help of a very good AA archivist there.



The text of the Bill W. letter about The

Little Red Book is also given in the Pittman

Anniversary Edition.



- - - -



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn

Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:

>

> The Little Red Book was published by "the

> Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins

> (an important early figure in Minneapolis

> A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April

> 14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for

> publishing it themselves. They were fellow

> members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.

>

> A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at

> the New York A.A. headquarters (then called

> the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,

> 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,

> gives their full approval to the idea of

> Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.

> pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis

> A.A. people had written themselves:

>

> "Dear Barry:

> . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the

> new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a

> host of others are all local projects. We do

> not actually approve or disapprove of these

> local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-

> tion feels each Group is entitled to write up

> its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its

> own merits. All of them have good points and

> very few have caused any controversy. But as

> in all things of a local nature, we keep hands

> off, either pro or con. I think there must be

> at least 25 local pamphlets now being used

> and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some

> good points. I think it is up to each indivi-

> dual Group whether it wants to use and buy

> these pamphlets from the Group that puts

> them out.

> Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"

>

> When The Little Red Book did come out, its use

> in A.A. meetings had the full approval both

> of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.

> Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as

> we have already noted, but in addition, Jack

> H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed

> Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending

> large numbers of copies of The Little Red

> Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the

> country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed

> Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the

> New York A.A. office was regularly ordering

> quantities of The Little Red Book for resale

> in New York.

>

> Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the

> Minneapolis book in November 1950:

>

> "The Little Red Book does fill a definite

> need and has wide circulation. Therefore,

> its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a

> definite place for such a book. Someday I

> may try to write an introduction book myself

> which I hope might complement favorably with

> The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation

> we are not policemen; we're a service and

> AAs are free to read any book they choose."

> ____________________

>

> SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html

>


0 -1 0 0
4918 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/11/2008 6:47:00 PM


There is an inconsistency here. Margaret R

Burger (AA's second National Secretary)

signed herself as "Bobbie" not "Bobby."



If there is a letter from her signed "Bobby"

it might not be genuine. I have a substantial

set of correspondence between her and Esther

E of Dallas. They are all signed "Bobbie."



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



Arthur,



We need somebody to check the New York AA

Archives on BOTH of the letters which

Bill Pittman reproduced in the 1996

Hazelden Anniversary Edition of The Little

Red Book.



Bill Pittman said on the copyright page

that this was the:



"50th Anniversary edition 1996

(from 1946 edition published by

Coll-Webb Company, Minneapolis)"



but Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) showed

that it was a reproduction of the 1949

edition, NOT the 1946 edition as Bill

Pittman claimed.



I have verified this by comparison with

a photocopy of the 1946 edition which

I was sent. See:



http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html



Jack H. told me over the telephone that

he had checked with one of the archivists

at the New York AA Archives (also over the

telephone) and had discovered that Bill

Pittman had also inserted a phrase into

the Burger letter that was not in the

original:



"as is Nicollet's 'An Interpretation

of the Twelve Steps.'"



But the New York archivist reading the

original letter over the phone to Jack H.

would have pronounced "Bobby" and "Bobbie"

identically, so there would have been no

reason for Jack to have caught that.



Anyway, we KNOW that Bill Pittman was very

careless indeed in his preparation of

that anniversary edition.



The Foreword which Bill wrote runs from

page vii to page xviii.



The Burger letter is reproduced on pages

xiii-xiv. The Bill Wilson letter is on

pages xvi-xvii.



Again, someone with access to the New York

AA Archives needs to check the original

letters to make sure that we have accurate

copies to work from.



More than that, we need a good AA historian

to do a book on Ed Webster, somebody who

will take the time and care to check all

the documents out, and do a good scholarly

job.



At this point, I am committed to finishing

my book on Richmond Walker, the author of

the Twenty-Four book, and would not be able

to take on that additional task.



But Ed Webster was very important to the

fellowship, and very much deserves to have

a book written about him.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)





-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut

Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:12 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers group

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Little Red Book



The Little Red Book was published by "the

Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins

(an important early figure in Minneapolis

A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April

14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for

publishing it themselves. They were fellow

members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.



A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at

the New York A.A. headquarters (then called

the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,

1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,

gives their full approval to the idea of

Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.

pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis

A.A. people had written themselves:



"Dear Barry:

. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the

new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a

host of others are all local projects. We do

not actually approve or disapprove of these

local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-

tion feels each Group is entitled to write up

its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its

own merits. All of them have good points and

very few have caused any controversy. But as

in all things of a local nature, we keep hands

off, either pro or con. I think there must be

at least 25 local pamphlets now being used

and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some

good points. I think it is up to each indivi-

dual Group whether it wants to use and buy

these pamphlets from the Group that puts

them out.

Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"



When The Little Red Book did come out, its use

in A.A. meetings had the full approval both

of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.

Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as

we have already noted, but in addition, Jack

H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed

Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending

large numbers of copies of The Little Red

Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the

country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed

Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the

New York A.A. office was regularly ordering

quantities of The Little Red Book for resale

in New York.



Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the

Minneapolis book in November 1950:



"The Little Red Book does fill a definite

need and has wide circulation. Therefore,

its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a

definite place for such a book. Someday I

may try to write an introduction book myself

which I hope might complement favorably with

The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation

we are not policemen; we're a service and

AAs are free to read any book they choose."

____________________



SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html











Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4919 Lynn Sawyer
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/11/2008 8:17:00 PM


Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>

(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)



Hi.



Lynn Sawyer here, from Sacramento, California

now, but originally from Minneapolis,

Minnesota area. I got sober on the Little

Red Book and other A.A. literature.



I didn't realize the Little Red Book was a

local [Minneapolis] publication. Thanks

again for your wealth of information for us

alkies.



Lynn



- - - -



From: "Don Cobb" <don@doncobb.com>

(don at doncobb.com)



I remember when some of our local AAers were

ADAMANT about 15 years ago, that we were NOT

to support "a private company" by buying it.

It was frowned on big time and in fact,

people were outright confrontational about

it, openly and angrily so.



So it's interesting to me to see that Dr. Bob

approved it.



Don C.



- - - -



From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says

that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow

transferred the rights to The Little Red

Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book

stayed in print.



Looking at the copyright pages of old

copies of The Little Red Book, it looks

like the transfer could have taken place

a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but

Hazelden has always been careless about

the dates they put down for the copyright

date of their editions of early AA books.



But as you note, in the early years, The

Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis

by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under

the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in

that city.



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
4920 Joseph Tandl
Background on Concept 4 Background on Concept 4 3/12/2008 11:18:00 PM


Friends,



I have been asked to write a short article

(i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on

Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's

archive revealed only the illustrated brochure

on the 12 concepts.



I would be grateful for pointers to informa-

tion about the history of and reason for

this particular concept and anything that

would make writing about it informative and

memorable.



Thanks, Joseph

Canberra, Australia


0 -1 0 0
4921 Dolores
Re: Background on Concept 4 Background on Concept 4 3/13/2008 5:27:00 PM


Hi, I found 2 Grapevine articles on the

Concepts. One is from January, 1995 and the

article is called "The mystery of the secret

12 (Concepts)" and the other one from January

1993, " Does your group use the Concepts?"



Nell Wings book "Glad to have been there"

also has a Chapter on the Concepts.



I have been very interested in the Concepts

too and Find them very important for service

work. The Concepts carry Bill W. signature.



Yours in AA



Dolores - Archives Continetal EuropeanRegion


0 -1 0 0
4922 Lance
Dr. Percy Poliak Dr. Percy Poliak 3/15/2008 4:04:00 PM


Hi group!



Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak?



He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big

Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism,"

page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!)



Thanks, and God's blessings!



Lance, from colorful Colorado!



- - - -



From the moderator: for additional background,

see



http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm



http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Reference\

s.pdf




page 43: staff member world renowned hospital

was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital,

New York



page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I

have heard," unknown.



Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist

was with Bellevue Hospital New York then

San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed

with A.A., gave A.A. group full support

(Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88)


0 -1 0 0
4923 Bruce A. Johanson
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/12/2008 7:50:00 PM


I also found God in Minneapolis (though I

heard he is throughout the world hee hee)

with the Little Red Book many years ago.



That and Stools and Bottles is mostly what we

used for literature while Big Books gathered

dust on the shelves. That is sometimes seen

as rather blasphemous these days.



What amazed me was finding out about "The

Nicollet Group" long after I had moved from

Minneapolis. I and a few friends used to

visit different groups once a week never

hearing a word about this group. I have

heard they are listed now with the Minne-

apolis Intergroup.



Bruce



- - - -



NOTE: In Minneapolis, Minnesota, Ed Webster

published "The Little Red Book" in 1946 under

the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed

also wrote "Stools and Bottles" (1955),

"Barroom Reveries" (1958), and "Our Devilish

Alcoholic Personalities" (in 1970, just a

year before his death). In early A.A., Ed was

one of the four most widely read A.A. authors.



- - - -



FROM: "bob" <bsdds@comcast.net>

(bsdds at comcast.net)



It is amazing to me the passion which so many

grasp onto the idea of "conference approved

literature." In my early sobriety I was living

in the "pink cloud" for many years and it has

only been in my retirement that I have become

fascinated with the history and the HUMANNESS

of these men and women.



Learning of the travails of the founders and

the huge part that people like Henry Parkhurst

played makes this thing so much more real. I

could never go to a movie based on this site

and enjoy it as much as I do reading and

"listening" to y'alls discussions.



Thanks for the Warmth.



bob s

goin' on 32


0 -1 0 0
4924 Tom Hickcox
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/12/2008 8:59:00 PM


>

> >From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

>(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

>

>Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says

>that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow

>transferred the rights to The Little Red

>Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book

>stayed in print.

>

>Looking at the copyright pages of old

>copies of The Little Red Book, it looks

>like the transfer could have taken place

>a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but

>Hazelden has always been careless about

>the dates they put down for the copyright

>date of their editions of early AA books.

>

>But as you note, in the early years, The

>Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis

>by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under

>the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in

>that city.

>

>Glenn C.

>



The first Hazelden publication of the Little

Red Book was some time in the 1960s and was

as best I can tell the little volume with

rounded corners. As Glenn points out,

Hazelden was not good at putting useful

information on printing and copyrights in

these early books.



This printing has a 1957 copyright by

Coll-Webb but has the Hazelden logo and

address [Central City, Minn 55012] on the

full title page. The use of a zip code

indicates the date was 1963 or later.



There are seven different small format LRBs

with the 1957 copyright. I believe the

rounded corner one was the first as Hazelden

started publishing two other books around the

same time and the first ones of these series

had rounded corners, Richmond Walker's 24

Hours a Day book and Stools and Bottles. No

copyrights are indicated in the 24 Hour book

and there are at least two printings w/o zip

codes and four with zips. The rounded corner

S&B has a 1955 copyright held by Coll-Webb.



The Hazelden logo started appearing in the

larger format, Coll-Webb printings of the

LRB in the form of a sticker on the full

title page starting with the twenty-second

printing in 1968, so it may be that the LRB

was turned over to Hazelden prior to Webster's

death in 1971, not that it makes any difference

to anyone but we collectors. The 23rd thru

25th printings had the Hazelden logo printed

on the full title page.



ISBNs were used in some of the latter LRBs

but not in the rounded corner 24 Hour books

that I know of. I believe ISBNs started in

1968.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
4925 Bill Lash
RE: Background on Concept 4 Background on Concept 4 3/15/2008 8:59:00 AM


Joseph Tandl (Canberra, Australia) wrote:

>

> I have been asked to write a short article

> (i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on

> Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's

> archive revealed only the illustrated brochure

> on the 12 concepts.

>

> I would be grateful for pointers to informa-

> tion about the history of and reason for

> this particular concept and anything that

> would make writing about it informative and

> memorable.



- - - -



From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>

(barefootbill at optonline.net)



Please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com

and click on "free resources". There is

a lot of info on the 12 Concepts & the 12

Traditions. It also has a large amount of

info/exercises/guides on all of the 12 Steps

too. Peace.



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill



- - - -



From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@verizon.net>

(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)



Dear friend,



All of the Concepts are in the AA Service

Manual, which you can download from the AA

website at



http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=101.



Happy reading!



Debi Ubernosky (service crazy alkie!)

DOS: 11-25-1990

by God's grace and because AA works!



Wait, my apologies, I should have referenced

the service material that is on Australia's

AA website:

http://www.aa.org.au/members/index.php?nav=mb



Here's the link to Australia's AA Service Manual:

http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_service_manual.php?nav=mb



Here's a diagram of your service structure:

http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_national_structure.php



Your local DCM or Area Delegate would be a

wonderful resource to get some personal input

on the Concepts.



Enjoy!



Debi



- - - -



From: Hugh Hyatt <hughhyatt@bluehen.udel.edu>

(hughhyatt at bluehen.udel.edu)



I've found the A.A. Grapevine Digital Archive

to be great too for finding information on

such topics: http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/



- - - -



From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net>



I have been active in Service at the Area Level and Central

Office for most of my sobriety. Especially at Central Office, I found

that a knowledge of the Concepts was an essential tool. Invaluable,

is a better way to say it. They are certainly a lesson in our history

and are as relevant today as when they were written. Bill's struggles

to have them become a part of us is also a fascinating story.



The Concepts have guided us over many threatening issues and

controversies since their creation. As I read through them I am ever

reminded of Bill's great visionary gift and where that gift came

from. Whenever I am asked to speak about them I never fail to remind

the listeners to read Bill's Essay on Leadership: to me, one of the

finest guides to being an AA leader (or a leader anywhere) that has

ever been written. It is so simple, so direct and so useable.



The Concepts can be used anywhere in the AA service structure,

from the Group to the Conference. The idea that we all have a voice,

the premise that we just must make decisions, the guidance that we

can't expect someone to take a responsibility in AA without

concurrently handing them a certain authority - all these things are

applicable at any level of Alcoholics Anonymous. A thorough knowledge

of the Concepts has given me the precious gift of being able to

survive and appreciate some of the volatile and controversial

decision made at the General Service Office, the Conference, and even

at my Home Group. It is my belief that if all of us had a first-hand

grasp of them, our grasp on our history and our AA Service life would

be easier and more fruitful.


0 -1 0 0
4926 kcb007_99
Lee T''s Foreword to Chuck C., "A New Pair of Glasses" Lee T''s Foreword to Chuck C., "A New Pair of Glasses" 3/16/2008 1:08:00 AM


What can anyone tell me about "Lee T." who

wrote a Foreword to "A New Pair of Glasses"

by Chuck C.?



Any background information you have about

"Lee T." and his writing of a Foreword in

Chuck C.'s book would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks in advance for any help you can give.



- - - -



From the moderator: I assume you have seen

Message 139 from Nancy Olson



"Chuck Chamberlain's Testimony Before a U.S.

Senate Subcommittee, 1969"



Chuck Chamberlain: was born in 1902, and got

sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a

book called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which

is a transcript of a retreat he gave for

alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written

by Clancy I. of California. It can be

purchased through New-Look Publishing Co.,

1960 Fairchild, Irvine, California 92715.

His son [Richard] became a famous actor.

Chuck died in 1984.


0 -1 0 0
4927 James Blair
Bill W''s Proposal For 12 Concepts For World Service Bill W''s Proposal For 12 Concepts For World Service 3/15/2008 4:17:00 PM


Proposal by Bill W. For Twelve Concepts

For World Service



10th General Service Conference – 1960



This proposal, delivered by Bill W. at the closing of the 10th General Service

Conference is of great historical significance as it was the first time that

Bill had spoken to the Fellowship on the subject of the Twelve Concepts.



The original transcript has been retyped for clarity and has been verified

against the voice recording.



-------------------------------------------



The last of the sand in the hourglass of our time together is about to run its

course. And you have asked me, as of old, to conclude this conference, our

tenth.



I always approach this hour with mixed feelings. As time has past, each year

succeeding itself, I have found increasing gratitude beyond measure, because of

the increasing sureness that A.A. is safe at last for God, so long as he may

wish this society to endure.



So I stand here among you and feel as you do a sense of security and gratitude

such as we have never known before. There is not a little regret, too, that the

other side of the coin -— that we cannot turn back the clock and renew these

hours. Soon they will become a part of our history.



The three legacies of A.A. -- recovery, unity and service -- in a sense

represent three utter impossibilities, impossibilities that we know became

possible, and possibilities that now have borne this unbelievable fruit. Old

Fitzmayo, one of the early A.A.”s and I visited the Surgeon General of the

United States in the third year of this society, told him of our beginnings. He

was a gentle man, Dr. Lawrence Kolb, since become a great friend of A.A., and he

said: ”I wish you well. Even the sobriety of such a few is almost a miracle. The

government knows that this is one of the greatest health problems we have, one

of the greatest moral problems, one of the greatest spiritual problems. But we

here have considered recovery of alcoholics so impossible that we have given up

and have instead concluded that rehabilitation of narcotic addicts would be the

easier job to tackle.”



Such was the devastating impossibility of our situation.



Now, what had been brought to bear upon this impossibility that it has become

possible? First, the Grace of Him who presides over all of us. Next, the cruel

lash of John Barleycorn who said, “This you must do, or die.” Next, the

intervention of God through friends, at first a few, and now legion, who opened

to us, who in the early days were uncommitted, the whole field of human ideas,

morality and religion, from which we could choose.



These have been the wellsprings of the forces and ideas and emotions and spirit

which were first fused into our Twelve Steps for recovery. And some of us got

well. But no sooner had a few got sober then the old forces began to come into

play. In us rather frail people, they were fearsome: the old forces, the drives,

money, acclaim, prestige.



Would these tear us apart? Besides, we came from every walk of life. Early, we

had begun to be a cross section of all men and women, all differently

conditioned, all so different and yet happily so alike in our kinship of

suffering. Could we hold in unity? To those few who remain who lived in those

earlier times when the Traditions were being forged in the school of hard

experience on its thousands of anvils, we had our very, very dark moments.



It was sure recovery was in sight, but how could there be recovery for many? Or

how could recovery endure if we were to fall into controversy and so into

dissolution and decay? Well, the spirit of the Twelve Steps, which has brought

us release, from one of the grimmest obsessions known -- obviously, this spirit

and these principles of retaining Grace had to be the fundamentals of our unity.

But in order to become fundamental to our unity, these principles had to be

spelled out as they applied to the most prominent and the most grievous of our

problems.



So, out of experience, the need to apply the spirit of our steps to our lives of

working and living together, these were the forces that generated the Traditions

of Alcoholics Anonymous.



But, we had to have more than cohesion. Even for survival, we had to carry this

message. We had to function. In fact, that had become evident in the Twelve

Steps themselves for the last one enjoins us to carry the message. But just how

would we carry this message? How would we communicate, we few, with those

myriad’s who still didn’t know? And how would this communication be handled? And

how could we do these things, how could we authorize these things in such a way

that in this new hot focus of effort and ego we were not again to be shattered

by the forces that had once ruined our lives?



This was the problem of the Third Legacy. From the vital Twelfth Step call right

up through our society to its culmination today. And, again, many of us said:

This can’t be done. It’s all very well for Bill and Bob and a few friends to set

up a Board of Trustees and to provide us with some literature, and look after

our public relations, and do all of those chores for us we can’t do for

ourselves. This is fine, but we can’t go any further than that. This is a job

for our elders. This is a job for our parents. In this direction only can there

be simplicity and security.



And then we came to the day when it was seen that the parents were both fallible

and perishable (although this seems to be a token they are not). And Dr. Bob’s

hour struck. And we suddenly realized that this ganglion, this vital nerve

center of World Service, would lose its sensation the day the communication

between an increasingly unknown Board of Trustees and you was broken. Fresh

links would have to be forged. And at that time many of us said: This is

impossible. This is too hard. Even in transacting the simplest business,

providing the simplest of services, raising the minimum amounts of money, these

excitements to us, in this society so bent on survival have been almost too much

locally. Look at our club brawls. My God, if we have elections countrywide, and

Delegates come down here, and look at the complexity -- thousands of group

representatives, hundreds of committeemen, scores of Delegates -— My God, when

these descend on our parents, the Trustees, what is going to happen then? It

won’t be simplicity; it can’t be. Our experience has spelled it out.



But there was the imperative, the must. And why was there an imperative? Because

we had better have some confusion, we had better have some politicking, than to

have an utter collapse of this center. That was the alternative. And that was

the uncertain and tenuous ground on which this Conference was called into being.



I venture, in the minds of many, sometimes in mine, the Conference could be

symbolized by a great prayer and a faint hope. This was the state of affairs in

1945 to 1950. And then came the day that some of us went up to Boston to watch

an Assembly elect by two thirds vote or lot a Delegate. And prior to the

Assembly, I consulted all the local politicos and those very wise Irishmen in

Boston said, we’re gonna make your prediction Bill, you know us temperamentally,

but we’re going to say that this thing is going to work. And it was the biggest

piece of news and one of the mightiest assurances that I had up to this time

that there could be any survival for these services.



Well, work it has, and we have survived another impossibility. Not only have we

survived the impossibility, we have so far transcended it that I think that

there can be no return in future years to the old uncertainties, come what

perils there may.



Now, as we have seen in this quick review, the spirit of the Twelve Steps was

applied in specific terms to our problems, to living, to working together. This

developed the Traditions. In turn, the Traditions were applied to this problem

of functioning at world levels in harmony and in unity.



And something which had seemed to grow like Topsy took on an increasing

coherence. And through the process of trial and error, refinements began to be

made until the day of the great radical change. Our question here in the old

days was: Is the group conscience for Trustees and for founders? Or are they to

be the parents of Alcoholics Anonymous forever? There is something a little

repugnant --you know, They got it through us, why can’t we go on telling them?



So the great problem, could the group conscience function at world levels? Well,

it can and it does. Today we are still in this process of definition and of

refinement in this matter of functioning. Unlike the Twelve Steps and the Twelve

Traditions which no doubt will be undisturbed from here out, there will always

be room in the functional area for refinements, improvements, adaptations. For

God’s sake, let us never freeze these things. On the other hand, let us look at

yesterday and today, at our experience. Now, just as it was vital to codify in

Twelve Steps the spiritual side of our program, to codify in twelve traditional

principles the forces and ideas that would make for unity, and discourage

disunity, so may it now be necessary to codify, those principles and

relationships upon which our world service function rests, from the group right

up through.



This is what I like to call structuring. People often say, What do you mean by

structuring? What use is it? Why don’t we just get together and do these things?

Well, structure at this level means just what structure means in the Twelve

Steps and in the Twelve Traditions. It is a stated set of principles and

relationships by which we may understand each other, the tasks to be done and

what the principles are for doing them. Therefore, why shouldn’t we take the

broad expanse of the Traditions and use their principles to spell out our

special needs in relationships in this area of function for world service,

indeed, at long last, I trust for all services whatever character?



Well, we’ve been in the process of doing this and two or three years ago it

occurred to me that I should perhaps take another stab --not at another batch of

twelve principles or points, God forbid, but at trying to organize the ideas and

relationships that already exist so as to present them in an easily understood

manner.



As you know the Third Legacy Manual is a manual that largely tells us how; it is

mostly a thing of mere description and of procedure. So I have cooked up in a

very tentative way something which we might call Twelve Concepts for World

Service. This has been a three-year job. I found the material, because of its

ramifications, exceedingly hard to organize. But I have made a stab at it and

the Concepts, which are really bundles of related principles, are on paper and

underneath each is a descriptive article. And I have eleven of the articles and

perhaps will soon wind up the Twelfth.



Now, to give you an idea of what’s cooking, what I’ve been driving at, I’ll

venture to bore you with two or three paragraphs of the introduction to this

thing.



“The Concepts to be discussed in the following pages are primarily an

interpretation of A.A.’s world service structure. They spell out the traditional

practices and the Conference charter principles that relate the component parts

of our world structure into a working whole. Our Third Legacy manual is largely

a document of procedure. Up to now the Manual tells us how to operate our

service structure. But there is considerable lack of detailed information which

would tell us why the structure has developed as it has and why its working

parts are related together in the fashion that our Conference and General

Service Board charters provide.



“These Twelve Concepts therefore represent an attempt to put on paper the why of

our service structure in such a fashion that the highly valuable experience of

the past and the conclusions that we have drawn from it cannot be lost.



“These Concepts are no attempt to freeze our operation against needed change.

They only describe the present situation, the forces and principles that have

molded it. It is to be remembered that in most respects the Conference charter

can be readily amended. This interpretation of the past and present can,

however, have a high value for the future. Every oncoming generation of service

workers will be eager to change and improve our structure and operations. This

is good. No doubt change will be needed. Perhaps unforeseen flaws will emerge.

These will have to be remedied.



But along with this very constructive outlook, there will be bound to be still

another, a destructive one. We shall always be tempted to throw out the baby

with the bath water. We shall suffer the illusion that change, any plausible

change, will necessarily represent progress. When so animated, we may carelessly

cast aside the hard won lessons of early experience and so fall back into many

of the great errors of the past.



Hence, a prime purpose of these Twelve Concepts is to hold the experience and

lessons of the early days constantly before us. This should reduce the chance of

hasty and unnecessary change. And if alterations are made that happen to work

out badly, then it is hoped that these Twelve Concepts will make a point of safe

return.”



Now, quickly, what are they?



Well, the first two deal with: ultimate responsibility and authority for world

services belongs to the A.A. group. That is to say, that’s the A.A. conscience.



The next one deals with the necessity for delegates authority. And perhaps you

haven’t thought of it, but when you re-read Tradition Two, you will see that the

group conscience represents a final and ultimate authority and that the trusted

servant is the delegated authority from the groups in which the servant is

trusted to do the kinds of things for the groups they can’t do for themselves.

So, how that got that way, respecting world services: ultimate authority,

delegated authority is here spelled out.



Then there comes in the next essay this all questioned importance of leadership,

this all important question of what anyway is a trusted servant. Is this gent or

gal a messenger, a housemaid -- or is he to be really trusted? And if so, how is

he going to know how much he can be trusted? And what is going to be your

understanding of it when you hand him the job? Now, these problems are legion.

The extent to which this trust is to be spelled out and applied to each

particular condition has to have some means of interpretation, doesn’t it? So I

have suggested here that, throughout our services, we create what might be

called the principle of decision -— and the root of this principle is trust. The

principle of decision, which says that any executive, committee, board, the

Conference itself, within the state or customary scope of their several duties,

should be able to say what questions they will dispose of themselves —- and

which they will pass on to the next higher authority for guidance, direction,

consultation and whatnot.



This spells out and defines, and makes an automatic means of defining throughout

our structure at all times, what the trust is that any servant could expect. You

say this is dangerous? I don’t think so. It simply means that you are not, out

of your ultimate authority as groups, to be constantly giving a guy directions

who you’ve already trusted to think for himself. Now, if he thinks badly, you

can sack him. But trust him first. That is the big thing.



Now, then, there is another traditional principle, the source of another essay

here called the principle of participation. Our whole lives have been wrecked,

often from childhood, because we have not been participants. There had been too

much of the parental thing, too much of the wrong kind of the parental thing, we

always wanted to belong, we always wanted to participate; and there is going to

be a constant tendency, which we must always forefend against, and that is to

place in our service structure any group, A.A. as a whole, the Conference, the

Board of Trustees, committees, executives -- to place any of these people in

absolutely unqualified authority, one over the other. This is an institutional,

a military, set-up —- and God knows we drunks have rejected institutions and

this kind of authority, for our purpose, haven’t we?



So, therefore, how, as a practical matter, are we going to express this

participation. Right here in this conference it’s burned in; in Article XII

you’ll see this statement in the Conference Charter: nobody is to be set in

utter authority over anybody else. How do we prevent this?



The Trustees here, and the headquarters people here, are in a great minority

over you people. You have the ultimate authority over us. And you say, well

these folks are nicely incorporated, and we ain’t; and they have the dough

legally, so have we got it? Sure, you got it. You can go home and shut the dough

off, can’t you? You’ve got the ultimate authority but -- we’ve got some

delegated authority. Now when you get in this Conference, you find that the

Trustees, and the Directors and the staffs have votes.



And many of you say, why is it; we represent the groups; why the hell shouldn’t

we tell these people? Why should they utter one yip while we’re doing it? Oh,

we’ll let ‘em yip, but not vote. Well, you see, right there we get from the

institutional idea to the corporate idea. And in the corporate business world,

there is participation in these levels. Can you imagine -how much stock would

you buy in General Motors if you knew the president and half the board of

directors couldn’t get into a meeting because they were on the payroll? Or could

just come in and listen to the out-of-town directors? You’d want these people’s

opinions registered. And they can’t really belong unless they vote. This we have

found out by the hardest kind of experience. So therefore, the essay here on

participation deals with the principle that any A.A. servant in any top echelon

of service, regardless of whether they’re paid, unpaid, volunteer or what, shall

be entitled to reasonable voting privileges in accordance with their

responsibility.



And you good politicos are going to say, but these people here hold a balance of

power. Well, we qualified that in one way. We’ll take the balance of power away

from them when it comes to qualifications for their own jobs or voting in

approval of their own actions. But the bulk of the work of this Conference has

to do with plans and policy for the future. So supposing that among you

Delegates there is a split. And supposing these people come in and vote, which,

by the way, they seldom do as a bloc, and they swing it one way or the other on

matters of future policy and planning; well, after all, why shouldn’t they? Are

they any less competent than the rest of us? Of course not. Besides these

technical considerations, there is this deep need in us to belong, to

participate. And you can only participate on the basis of equality -- and one

token of this is voting equality. At first blush, you won’t like the idea. But

you’ll have a chance to think about it.



One more idea: There came to this country some hundred years ago a French Baron

whose family and himself had been wracked by the French revolution. De

Toqueville. And he was a worshipful admirer of democracy. And in those days

democracy seemed to be mostly expressed in people’s minds by votes of simple

majorities. And he was a worshipful admirer of the spirit of democracy as

expressed by the power of a majority to govern. But, said de Toqueville, a

majority can be ignorant, it can be brutal, it can be tyrannous -- and we have

seen it. Therefore, unless you most carefully protect a minority, large or

small, make sure that minority opinions are voiced, make sure that minorities

have unusual rights, you’re democracy is never going to work and its spirit will

die. This was de Toqueville’s prediction and, considering today’s times, is it

strange that he is not widely read now?



That is why in this Conference we try to get a unanimous consent while we can;

this is why we say the Conference can mandate the Board of Trustees on a

two-thirds vote. But we have said more here. We have said that any Delegate, any

Trustee, any staff member, any service director, -- any board, committee or

whatever --- that wherever there is a minority, it shall always be the right of

this minority to file a minority report so that their views are held up clearly.

And if in the opinion of any such minority, even a minority of one, if the

majority is about to hastily or angrily do something which could be to the

detriment of Alcoholics Anonymous, the serious detriment, it is not only their

right to file a minority appeal, it is their duty.



So, like de Toqueville, neither you nor I want either the tyranny or the

majority, nor the tyranny of the small minority. And steps have been taken here

to balance up these relations.



Now, some of the other things cover topics like this, I touched on this: The

Conference acknowledges the primary administrative responsibility of the

Trustees. We have talked about electing trustees and yet primarily they are a

body of administrators. In a sense, it’s an executive body, isn’t it? Look at

any form of government. (Understand we’re not a form of government, but you have

to pay attention to these forms). The President of the United States is the only

elected executive; all the rest are appointive, aren’t they, subject to

confirmation by, which is the system we got here -- and this goes into that.



And then there is this question taken up in another essay. How can these legal

rights of the Trustees, which haven’t been changed one jot or title by the

appearance of this Conference, if they’ve got the legal right to hang on to your

money and do as they dammed please, what’s going to stop them? Well, the answer

is: Nobody has a vested interest. They have to be volunteers always. They are

amenable to the spirit of this Conference and its power and its prestige --- and

if they are not, there is a provision here by which they can be reorganized;

there is a provision in here by which they can be censored - and you can always

go home and shut off the money spigot.



So, the traditional power of this Conference and the groups is actually superior

to the legal power of the Trustees. That is the balance. But the trustees as a

minority some day, should this Conference get very angry and unreasonable, say:

Boys, we’re going to veto you for the time being, we ain’t gonna do this ---

even as the President of the United States has the veto, so will these fellows.

You go home and think this over. We won’t go along. And if you give them a vote

of no confidence, they can appeal to the groups. These are the balances, see;

this is interpretive, this has all been implicit in our structure but we’re

trying to spell it out.



Well, there are others —- There’s a whole section on leadership, service

leadership from top to bottom, what it’s composed of. In A.A. we wash between

great extremes. On the one side, we’ve got the infallible leader who never makes

any mistakes --- and let us do just as he says. On the other side we have a

concept of leadership which goes and says: What shall I do? What shall I do?

Tell me, what time do —- I’m just a humble servant, not a trusted one, just a

humble one. The hell with either. Leadership in practice works in between -- and

we spell that out. And so on.



This will give you an idea of what’s cooking in the Twelve Concepts for World

Service. The last one which I haven’t done deals with the Conference -- Article

XII of the Conference charter. And you who recall it know that this is several

things. First of all, it’s the substance of the contract the groups made with

the Board of Trustees at the time of St. Louis. And this contract decrees that

this body shall never be a government.



It decrees that we shall be prudent financially. It decrees that we shall be

keepers of the A.A. Tradition —- and so on -- so that it is in part a spiritual

document and in part a contract. And, God willing, because it is both spiritual

and contract, let it be for all time of our existence a sanctified contract.



My own days of active service, like the sands in our last hourglass, are running

out. And this is good. We know that all families have to have parents and we

know that the great unwisdom of all parenthood is to try to remain the parents

of infants in adolescence and keep people in this state forever. We know that

when the parents have done their bit, and said their pieces, and have nursed the

family along, that there comes the point that the parents must say: Now, you go

out and try your wings. You haven’t grown up and we haven’t grown up, but you

have come to the age of responsibility where, with the tools we are leaving you,

you must try to grow up, to grow in God’s image and likeness.



So my feeling is not that I’m withdrawing because I’m tired. My feeling is that

I would like to be another kind of parent, a fellow on the sidelines. If there

is some breach in these walls which we have erected, some unseen flaw or defect,

of course all of us oldsters are going to pitch in for the repairs. But this

business of functioning in the here and now, that is for the new generation.



May God bless Alcoholics Anonymous forever. And I offer a prayer that the

destiny of this society will ever be safe in the hearts of its membership and in

the conscience of its trusted servants. You are the heirs. As I said at the

opening the future belongs to you.


0 -1 0 0
4928 Charlie C
Little Red Book - current Hazelden edit. Little Red Book - current Hazelden edit. 3/17/2008 4:58:00 PM


Am curious to read the current Hazelden edition

of The Little Red Book after reading the recent

posts on it.



My question: is the "nonsexist" language edition

from Hazelden more or less the original text,

or is it significantly altered?



Charlie C.

IM, Yahoo = route20guy



"For what do we live, but to make sport for

our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"

Pride & Prejudice


0 -1 0 0
4929 Ron Roizen
quote from "Alcohol and Public Opinion" (1942) quote from "Alcohol and Public Opinion" (1942) 3/18/2008 9:22:00 AM


Good Morning!



I just now joined this group in order to ask

the following question:



In 1942, a man named Dwight Anderson published

what I believe to be one of the most important

articles in the history of the modern

alcoholism movement. It was titled "Alcohol

and Public Opinion," and published in the

Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol

(3:376-392, 1942). Near the end of this

article, Anderson discussed the prevailing

apathy and sense of impotence with regard to

alcoholism current among contemporary

physicians in the U.S. At one point, he

tells an anecdote about the misinterpretation

of slips among physicians (pp. 386-387):



"Too frequently the therapist merely regards

this [i.e., a slip] as evidence of the

impossibility of cure, and gives up. A

psychiatrist in a municipal hospital so

regarded a lapse in an instance known to the

author. A member of Alcoholics Anonymous who

had been helped to remain sober for more than

a year, landed back in the psychiatric ward

where she was quite well known from many

previous visits. The psychiatric intern who

visited her said: 'Well, I see you're back in

here again despite "Alcoholics Anonymous."'

Do we chide a tuberculosis patient who

relapses?"



Might anyone on this list recall anything in

connection with Anderson's anecdote, I wonder?

I'm particularly interested in the name of

the AA member Anderson was referring to.



Thanks in advance for any help!



Ron Roizen

Wallace, Idaho


0 -1 0 0
4930 bruceken@aol.com
Re: Dr. Percy Poliak Dr. Percy Poliak 3/20/2008 9:03:00 AM


Dr. Percy Poliak had indeed been on the staff

of Bellevue Hospital in New York, as Resident

Physician in Charge of the Psychiatric

Division. At that time he had a brief

contact with Bill W. and had come to possess

a Big Book.



While at Bellvue Dr. Poliak also met a San

Francisco drunk, Ted C, who was in the New

York hospital recovering. That was in 1939.

(Ted C. was among the first four members of

AA in San Francisco.)



By March of 1940, however, according to a

history of the California Northern Coastal

Area written by Dean K. (d. 1984), Dr. Poliak

was on the Staff of the San Francisco General

Hospital.



It was at that time that another local AA

member, Don B., had started to drink again,

and was admitted there. Ted C., now a sober AA

member, went to visit Don in the SF hospital

and ran into Dr. Poliak again.



This led to Dr. Poliak becoming very active

with AA membership in San Francisco. attending

AA meetings and referring numerous patients

to the Fellowship. He is honored by AA in San

Francisco as one of its strongest friends.



Bruce Kennedy

Chair, San Francisco Archives Committee



- - - -



Message 4922 from <lance_1954@yahoo.com>

(lance_1954 at yahoo.com)



Hi group!



Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak?



He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big

Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism,"

page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!)



Thanks, and God's blessings!



Lance, from colorful Colorado!



- - - -



From the moderator: for additional background,

see



http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm



http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Reference\

\s.pdf



page 43: staff member world renowned hospital

was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital,

New York



page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I

have heard," unknown.



Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist

was with Bellevue Hospital New York then

San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed

with A.A., gave A.A. group full support

(Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88)


0 -1 0 0
4931 Filiatreau, Amy
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/17/2008 11:00:00 AM


Glenn wrote: Again, someone with access to

the New York AA Archives needs to check the

original letters to make sure that we have

accurate copies to work from.



- - - -



Hello! As you both know, I usually don’t

stick my foot in at AAHistoryLovers but prefer

just to view the wonderful things others

are researching and writing on this list,

only responding or butting in when specifi-

cally requested to do so. That said, since I

certainly have access to AA’s GSO Archives :-),

I thought I would respond to this and hopefully

can help.



- - - -



We have an original copy of Bobbie Burger’s

November 11, 1944 letter to Barry Collins, and

her words are slightly different than what is

quoted below, and some sentences were removed,

but it’s basically the same. She writes (this

is typed verbatim from her letter):



- - - -



"Dear Barry:



. . . The Washington pamphlet like the new

Cleveland one and the host of others are all

local projects. I doubt that they make

anything on the sale of them for it is only

on a very large distribution that anything

can be made. I know, although we ship thousands

of our own pamphlets, that we actually lose a

little selling at the price we do. Of course,

we do not try to make a profit – the pamphlet

distribution is just another service of this

office. We do not actually approve or

disapprove of these local pieces; by that

I mean that the Foundation feels each Group

is entitled to write up its own 'can opener'

nd [sic] let it stand on its own merits. All

of them have good points and very few have

caused any controversy. But as in all things

of a local nature, we keep hands off, either

pro or con. Personally I’m glad to see the

‘Spnsor’ [sic] pamphlet out of Cleveland. I

know the system there ‘works’ and could be

of benefit to other groups. Frankly I haen’t

[sic] had time to mor [sic] than glance at

the Washington booklet but I’ve heard some

favorable comments about it. I think there

must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being

used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had

some good points. I think it is up to each

individual Group whether it wants to use and

buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts

them out. . . .



Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger)"



- - - -



We have many letters to and from Bill about

this book, but I can’t find the one transcribed

below (also on hindsfoot.org) from November

1950. We have a number of letters from Bill

to Ed Webster and to Barry Collins. They

clearly were communicating with Bill in late

1950; they sent Bill some copies of the new

revision and many letters were exchanged. But

I can’t find Bill’s 1950 letter to Barry with

this quote in it.



However, this is just the sort of thing that

Bill did say in many other letters. I don’t

see any reason at all to think the letter is

not legitimate; we just don’t seem to have it

in our collection. I believe it’s probably

genuine, but without having a copy of it here,

I can’t say for sure.



The Alcoholic Foundation and Bill W. were

always very welcoming of books like this if

they were helpful to AA members, and always

took a very hands-off approach, as we do today.

We have a letter from Bill W. dated November

14, 1946, in which he writes to Ed:



- - - -



“I haven’t had a chance to get at the little

book. Everybody who has read it seems to like

it very much – which of course was to be

expected! Personally I am very glad to see

many people writing about A.A. and circulating

the material about even though some folks

seem to think I should do all the writing.

To me this idea is nonsense. A.A. is not one

point of view, it is many.”



- - - -



On May 31, 1949, Bill writes Ed again to thank

him for sending him some books. He writes,



- - - -



“God forbid that Alcoholics Anonymous ever

become frozen or rigid in its ways of doing

or thinking. Within the framework of our

principles the ways are apparently legion.

There is little doubt that the contribution

you folks have made to our progress will always

be a part of the folk lore of our well-loved

fellowship.”



- - - -



Hope this is helpful. Take care!



Amy



Amy Filiatreau, CA

Archives Director

AA World Services, Inc.



212-870-2568



<filiatreaua@aa.org>

(filiatreaua at aa.org)


0 -1 0 0
4932 celticgreen4
Spiritual experience changed to awakening Spiritual experience changed to awakening 3/24/2008 11:53:00 AM


Can anyone tell me when the Big Book was

changed to say in the 12th Step in Chapter

Five "Having had a spiritual awakening..."

as versus the earlier phrase "Having had a

spiritual experience..."?



- - - -



FROM OUR PAST MESSAGES:



From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005

Subject: RE: Changing "those" to "these"

in 12th step wording



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was

changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st

edition Big Book. The term “spiritual

experience” was changed to “spiritual

awakening” and the term “as the result of

these steps” was changed to “as the result

of those steps.”



An appendix titled “Spiritual Experience” was

also added to the Big Book in the 2nd printing

of the 1st edition. This was done because

many members thought they had to have a sudden

and spectacular spiritual experience similar

to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The

appendix emphasized that most spiritual

experiences were of the type that the psycho-

logist William James called the “educational

variety.”



There is a very brief mention of the Step 12

wording change from "experience" to "awakening"

in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter "Religion

Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by Father Ed

Dowling (pg 256). Outside of it, I have been

unable to find any further references to the

changes in AA literature.



In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again

in the 2nd printing of the 2nd edition Big

Book. The term “as the result of those steps”

was restored to its original form of “as the

result of these steps.”



The 1976 General Service Conference approved

publication of the 3rd edition Big Book.



The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955

provision of the Conference Charter to specify

that any change to the Steps, Traditions or

Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of

the General Service Conference Charter, would

require written approval of 75% of the AA

Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory

Action makes any change whatsoever to the

Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a

virtual impossibility (even so much as adding

or removing a comma).



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



Message 3677 from "ArtSheehan"

<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Sept. 4, 2006



There were a number of significant changes

made to the 2nd printing of the 1st edition

Big Book:



In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the

wording of Step Twelve changed. The term

"spiritual experience" was changed to

"spiritual awakening" and "as the result of

these steps" was changed to "as the result

of those steps." The story "Lone Endeavor"

(of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth

Hock) was removed. Appendix II "Spiritual

Experience" was added. Many members thought

they had to have a sudden, spectacular

spiritual experience similar to the one

Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix

emphasized that most spiritual experiences

developed slowly over time and were of the

"educational variety." William James, by

the way did not explicitly use the term

"educational variety" in his 1902 book

titled "The Varieties of Religious

Experience - A Study In Human Nature."


0 -1 0 0
4933 shakey1aa
Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers 3/24/2008 12:37:00 AM


I recently obtained printings of the 1st and

2nd reprints of Jack Alexander's SEP (Saturday

Evening Post) article which must have been

the most widely circulasted Can Opener of the

1940's. After the articled appeared in the

magazine the Philadelphia Mother Group ordered

10,000 copies from Judge Curtis Bok, a Phila-

delphia Municipal Court Judge and the owner

of the Curtis publications. One thousand of

these stayed in Philadelphia and nine thousand

went to New York. Our relationship with the

Judge occured with the help from two Non-

Alcoholic members of AA in Philadelphia. They

were referred to as "associate members" and

are listed in the 1st meeting list issued by

the Mother Group. (July 1940) Those two men

were Dr's A Weise Hammer and Dudley Saul.



Has the list of Can Opener's been updated

since the initial post?



Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept 2008 ?













- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C." <brucecl2002@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi All

>

> Here is a list of some of the early AA

> pamphlets I have seen. All early can openers

> had a point.

>

> I have seen two "AA" pamphlets or booklets,

> both from Works Publishing:

>

> 1. - The Houston Press reprints of intro,

> an editorial, and 6 - articles published

> by The Houston Press, with a reprint of

> "A New Approach to Psychotherapy in Chronic

> Alcoholism", by Dr. Silkworth, from "The Journal

> - Lancet, MN. July, 1939, Vol. LIX, No. 7,

> page 312.(no copyright date, circa. 1940)

>

> 2. - AA pamphlet or booklet, 29 pages,

> Alcoholics Anonymous intro, Am I An

> Alcoholic?, The Doctor's Nightmare, The

> European Drinker, Women Suffer Too, Bill's

> Story, Medicine, Religion and Alcoholics

> Anonymous, The Twelve Steps, Our Friends Say,

> Book Review by Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick.

> copyright 1943.

>

> Other Works Publishing pamphlets or booklets:

>

> Medicine Looks at A.A. - 1946

> A.A. Tradition - 1947

> Sedatives - 1948

> The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous - 1950

>

> Pamphlets Booklets with "color covers", by

> the Alcoholic Foundation:

>

> A.A. for the Woman - 1952

> Sedatives and the Alcoholic - 1952

> The Alcoholic Employee - 1952

> Young People and A.A. - 1953

>

> The items stated earlier reprinted from Akron -

> Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, MI., and Chicago,

> IL. central offices.

>

>

> Bruce C.

>


0 -1 0 0
4934 James Bliss
Conference Approved Literature Conference Approved Literature 3/29/2008 12:13:00 PM


I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack

of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the

GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated

10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the

following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:



<begin quote>

"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual

material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This

process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with

A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the

recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the

A.A. Fellowship.



"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does

_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great

deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and

A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or

may not read.



"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents

solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes

through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of

A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express

opinions at every stage of production."

<end quote>



It states a little later:

<begin quote>

"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved



"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or

booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the

needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as

"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,

Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and

central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The

Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.



"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved

by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."

<end quote>



Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the

original thread.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
4935 Jonathan Rose
Re: Conference Approved Literature Conference Approved Literature 3/30/2008 6:53:00 PM


Hi friends,



The A.A. web-site posts information regarding

Conference-approved and other A.A. literature.

the direct link at the site is:



http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214



in fellowship,



Buck R.



- - - -



On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote:



I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack

of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the

GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated

10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the

following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:



<begin quote>

"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual

material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This

process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with

A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the

recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the

A.A. Fellowship.



"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does

_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great

deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and

A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or

may not read.



"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents

solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes

through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of

A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express

opinions at every stage of production."

<end quote>



It states a little later:

<begin quote>

"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved



"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or

booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the

needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as

"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,

Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and

central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The

Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.



"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved

by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."

<end quote>



Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the

original thread.



Jim













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4936 garylock7008
Middletown play presented at AA meetings Middletown play presented at AA meetings 3/27/2008 5:06:00 PM


Gary up here in Canada eh!



One of our AA members - sober over 40 years

remembers a play that used to move from group

to group, about Middletown?



He remembers it being performed at one of the

Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder

if anyone can give me more information, a

script?



Best in Recovery - Gary


0 -1 0 0
4937 rdg1649
William James and Appendix William James and Appendix 3/26/2008 7:53:00 PM


It is true that James used the term experiental

rather than educational as Bill's appendix to

the Big Book states.



However, it has always struck me that there

is a far greater problem with this appendix.

Reading it I get the impression that Bill is

implying that it is o.k. if a member's

spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of

lightning' type as he describes his.



In fact, having read James, it is my

impression that James is saying the exact

opposite: That the most lasting and deep

are experiential and not revival type

surges of emotion as Bill describes his.



Seems to me that Bill acurately reports

that James noted a 'variety' of religious

experiences but not with the same emphasis/

orientation that Bill implies.


0 -1 0 0
4938 Danny S
The Third Courageous Doctor The Third Courageous Doctor 3/27/2008 12:06:00 PM


Hey guys. Thanks for all of your service here.

I have a pressing question to which I can't

seem to get the answer. Yet.



Most of us AA History lovers are already

familiar with the two doctors in the Big Book

who did the unspeakable: (i) Admitted to a

suffering patient that they didn't know squat

about how to help a real alcoholic and points

out (ii) the existence of a distinction

between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic.

That would be Silkworth and Jung. We owe our

Fellowship to these men.



But there is one more - a THIRD! In a story

in the back of the Book, "Me an Alcoholic?"

(4th edit. p. 382) the author talks about

his analyst who concluded that the "line

between the heavy drinker and the alcoholic

is not always clear" (385:5) and tells him,

"there is nothing I can do" (386:1) and

"nothing medicine can do".(386:1) The

author points out the analyst's "courage to

admit failure" (386:2)



Is there a name we can ascribe to this third,

courageous and honest physician?



Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff



- - - -



From the moderator:



"Me an Alcoholic?" is found in the 2nd edition

on page 419, 3rd edition on page 432, and 4th

edition on page 382. Author Unknown.



See Nancy Olson's biographies of the authors at

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

which notes that "This author's date of sobriety

is believed to be November 1947."



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
4939 jlobdell54
History & Archives Lebanon PA June 21 2008 History & Archives Lebanon PA June 21 2008 3/31/2008 10:15:00 AM


Multi-District History & Archives Gathering

Lebanon, Pennsylvania, June 21 2008



This year's Gathering is scheduled to begin

at 8 a.m. (registration) on Saturday June 21

2008 at the Social Hall at 750 State Drive in

Lebanon PA (location also in 2006 and 2007).



Suggested topics for panels are:



**The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H,

Shep C, Cebra G)



**AA and Baseball



**AA and Films/Theatre



**Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region



**AA Pioneers



**And a Panel on Coming into AA in the

Eastern Pennsylvania Area in October 1970

(three old friends who have known each

other in sobriety for more than 35 years).



The Gathering is FREE and morning refreshments

and lunch will be provided.



End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m.



Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net

(histandarch at comcast.net)


0 -1 0 0
4940 Bob Schultz
Re: Middletown play presented at AA meetings Middletown play presented at AA meetings 3/31/2008 7:09:00 PM


http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/literature/Twelve%20Traditions%20Play.pdf



From: "Bob Schultz" <bsdds@comcast.net>

(bsdds at comcast.net)



Also from: "mchugh1652"

<mchugh1652@ameritech.net>

(mchugh1652 at ameritech.net)



- - - -



From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com>

(scmws at yahoo.com)



The local districts and occasionally a group

have put on skits at conferences. The Twelve

Traditions play is a fine skit which teaches

the players and others much about the

traditions and service structure. I ran

across The Twelve Concepts play somewhere,

but I can't find it right now.



There is a good website:



recoveryskits.com



which might be a place to look.



Thanks.



Sam'l Sommers

Elkhart Indiana



- - - -



From: "gayle" <downtowndoggie@yahoo.com>

(downtowndoggie at yahoo.com)



Hello to all! this is my first post. I

requested the script for this play from GSO

back in the 90's & actually performed in it

twice. I am looking at the script right now.

It's called "Twelve Traditions Play" the

cast is made up of: Narrator, Founder

(oldtimer), Moneybags, Eager Beaver,

Politician, Delegate and Newcomer! It takes

place in Middletown Group. It also says

"There is no set script or cast for this play.

Like everything in A.A., it is very "loosely"

organized. Ideally there should be seven

players; this version is set up for six

players and a narrator or themesetter who

opens and closes the play."





----- Original Message -----

From: garylock7008

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:06 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Middletown play presented at AA meetings





Gary up here in Canada eh!



One of our AA members - sober over 40 years

remembers a play that used to move from group

to group, about Middletown?



He remembers it being performed at one of the

Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder

if anyone can give me more information, a

script?



Best in Recovery - Gary


0 -1 0 0
4941 chesbayman56
Significant April Dates in A.A. History Significant April Dates in A.A. History 4/1/2008 1:34:00 AM


April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &

tell them of obsession & allergy.

April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best

Friend" by Jack Alexander.

April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest

desire to stop drinking".

April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service

Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.

April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.

April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big

Book.

April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used

to open AA meetings in Texas.

April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.

April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.

April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.

April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill

W's "spiritual sponsor."

April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking

for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack

Alexander.

April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the

office Bill and Hank P shared.

April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for

A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)

April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones

in New Bedford.

April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-

hitter in baseball history since 1909.

April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the

one millionth copy of the Big Book.

April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was

formed. First 'mail order' group.

April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was

formed in Seattle.

April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock

to the Alcoholic Foundation.

April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book

royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.

April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.

April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.

April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.

April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.

April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.

April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation

was broadcast on ABC TV.


0 -1 0 0
4942 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Conference Approved Literature Conference Approved Literature 3/31/2008 5:50:00 PM


Hi All



I'd like to make an appeal to give consideration

to performing a search of the large and rich

archival postings of AA History Lovers. Topics

such as "Conference-approved literature" have

surfaced a number of times in the forum and it

is well worth a trip through the past postings.

It will also yield much more information on

individual viewpoints of various members of

the forum. It's a rich information source -

please take advantage of it.



The information published by GSO on what

"Conference-approved" means, is also included

in hard copy form in the Group Handbook offered

by AAWS/GSO. GSO publishes a number of

informative and valuable "service pieces"

that do not require Conference approval. The

information cited about what "Conference-

approved" means is one these "service pieces."



The Conference-approval process can be very

rigorous at times. Trustees Committees and

the GSO Publications Department are vital

parts of the whole process. More often than

not only a small percentage of Conference

Delegates will have the opportunity to

completely review a piece of literature prior

to voting on it on the Conference floor for

Conference approval/disapproval.



It would be a physical impossibility for all

Conference Delegates to review every piece of

literature under consideration. The backbone

of the Conference is made up of "Conference

Committees" (explained in the AA Service

Manual). Each Conference Committee that has

a literature item on its agenda performs the

detailed review and discussion and makes a

"recommendations" to the Conference as a whole

for approval. If the recommendation receives

at least a 2/3 majority in the affirmative

then it is approved.



The Conference approval process can also be

intimidating and onerous. One of the members

of this forum, Mel B, wrote the lion's share

of Bill W's biography "Pass It On" (the

original title proposed was "Bill W and His

Friends" - my Areas Archives has 2 manuscript

copies). I don't want to try to speak for Mel

but I can only imagine how tough it was to

satisfy a formidable array of Trustees and

Delegates on a biography of Bill W. Also,

the attempt to write an AA history from 1955

had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference

approval for any type of historical work would

be one heck of a major challenge (and probably

rightfully so).



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rose

Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:53 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference Approved Literature



Hi friends,



The A.A. web-site posts information regarding

Conference-approved and other A.A. literature.

the direct link at the site is:



http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214



in fellowship,



Buck R.



- - - -



On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote:



I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack

of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the

GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated

10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the

following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:



<begin quote>

"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual

material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This

process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with

A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the

recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the

A.A. Fellowship.



"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does

_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great

deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and

A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or

may not read.



"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents

solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes

through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of

A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express

opinions at every stage of production."

<end quote>



It states a little later:

<begin quote>

"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved



"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or

booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the

needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as

"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,

Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and

central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The

Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.



"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved

by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."

<end quote>



Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the

original thread.



Jim













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





------------------------------------



Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
4943 ginnymatthew
Question about the circle, triangle and other Question about the circle, triangle and other 4/1/2008 6:43:00 PM


I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book

printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and

the title page have the AA circle and triangle

logo that I thought was 'banned' from being

used back in 1996. How is it that they are

able to use this logo?



Also on the front page is a disclaimer which

states "No part of this publication may be

reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,

or transmitted in any form or by any means

without the prior permission of the publisher."



U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.

What is that about?



Gratefully,

Ginny


0 -1 0 0
4944 Mel Barger
Re: Conference Approved Literature Conference Approved Literature 4/4/2008 4:48:00 PM


Hi Arthur,



I appreciate your memo on Conference-approved

literature. You have pointed out how rigorous

the approval process is and how difficult

it is to get final approval. I was probably

the right guy to work on Bill's bio because

my background was in writing for a corporation,

where you have to please everybody from the

assistant janitor to the CEO. But I was

replaced after two years!



Working on Bill's bio was, however, a wonder-

ful experience that gave me the opportunity

to interview people I never would have met

and it also enabled me to write three of my

Hazelden books.



What I'd really like to see, as an independent

author, is some effort to show that "outside"

literature can be just as useful as the

conference-approved materials (and might also

be necessary in seeking happy sobriety).



Some members apparently believe that a good

AA should read only conference-approved

literature, which is not the purpose of the

process. This viewpoint has become so fixed

in Toledo that people apologize if they quote

from a piece that is not conference-approved.

"Twenty-Four Hours a Day" used to be sold at

most groups here, but it was finally eliminated

by the self-appointed AA police (is my resent-

ment showing?).



You referred to the ill-starred attempt to

produce an AA history covering the period from

1955 on. I understand that this failed because

delegates were unhappy with the histories of

their own areas, for various reasons. The

project was finally shelved after spending a

small fortune producing a version.



It did get out somehow, and I have a copy for

occasional reference, but there is no approved

copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will

never have an authorized history covering

this period; the job will be left to outside

writers by default.



Mel Barger



melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


0 -1 0 0
4945 Shakey1aa@aol.com
The Stools and Bottle Talk The Stools and Bottle Talk 4/5/2008 3:12:00 PM


I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a

tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like

to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or

know how to purchase the props for the talk?



shakey mike gwirtz


0 -1 0 0
4946 johnhartie
Doctor''s opinion Doctor''s opinion 4/6/2008 9:25:00 AM


My name is John Hartie, I'm doing the commit-

ment for the history lovers at Barking big

book study.



The question is, in the Doctor's Opinion page

xxx, was the classification of the alcoholic

put in order for any reason?



We are looking for facts and not anyone's

opinion, sorry if that sounds harsh.


0 -1 0 0
4947 DudleyDobinson@aol.com
Re: Question about the circle, triangle and other Question about the circle, triangle and other 4/4/2008 5:39:00 PM


From Dudley Dobinson and Phillip Baker



**************



From: DudleyDobinson <DudleyDobinson@aol.com>

(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)



Hi Ginny,



As I understand, it in the UK (and in Ireland

where I live and am in service) the copyright

of the Big Book and AA Circle/Triangle was not

lost and is still in force. You can verify this

by visiting either country's web site. Here

in Ireland we use the logo on all official AA

correspondence. However we do buy our literature

from New York whereas the UK prints some of

its own. I could go on, hopefully this will

answer your question.



In Service - Dudley



- - - -



From: Phillip Baker <phillipb@the12steps.net>

(phillipb at the12steps.net)



Different copyright laws in different countries.

The copyright for the 1st and 2nd edition were

allowed to lapse in the US only.



This does nto apply to other countries.



Also in the US the 3rd and 4th edition is under

copyright. But I guess since the first 164

pages are now public domain, that copyright

only applies to the new forwards, the personal

stories and the additional appendixes.



But basically there are different copyright

laws in different countries.



I assume the circle and triangle fell under

that as well. I would assume that the AA

office in the UK chose to keep using the

circle and triangle. They would be autonomous

from from the AA central office here in the

states around certain issues.



Blessed Be



Phillip

http://www.the12steps.net



- - - -



Original message from <ginnymatthew@yahoo.com>

(ginnymatthew at yahoo.com)



I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book

printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and

the title page have the AA circle and triangle

logo that I thought was 'banned' from being

used back in 1996. How is it that they are

able to use this logo?



Also on the front page is a disclaimer which

states "No part of this publication may be

reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,

or transmitted in any form or by any means

without the prior permission of the publisher."



U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.

What is that about?



Gratefully,

Ginny


0 -1 0 0
4948 Bob Schultz
Courageous doctors: Dr. Talbot and Dr. Zweig Courageous doctors: Dr. Talbot and Dr. Zweig 4/1/2008 7:20:00 AM


I think there were/are many courageous

physicians out there such as my sponsor.

He sobered up in 1970 in Denver while an

ophthalmologist and then came to be a dean

of a medical school in Texas. While he was

in charge the school adopted the study of

Alcoholism and presented as a curriculum.

There were four career teachers in that field

named from that med school. He got himself

associated with IDAA and then was able to

put together CME courses for health professi-

onals that included a gamut of subjects, but

the underlying theme was a study of addiction.



There were all night alkathons and a meeting

planned or put together quickly. Dr. Talbot

attended some of them as did many other well-

known treatment people and caregivers for

alcoholism care. He ran his tenure for nearly

eight years.



Whenever he got up to speak to this group, he

would always start out with; "let's cut to the

chase! My name is George and i am an alcoholic."

Sadly, the CME meetings stopped when he stepped

down.



George T virtually died in my arms in the late

90's in an extended care facility. In my eyes

he was a hero and one of the most courageous

men I ever knew. I can never show him enough

respect. There are countless numbers that

benefited from his stand and most will never

know they did. Just my 2 cents.



In sobriety



Bob S



- - - -



From the moderator: see also the story of

Dr. Zweig in Fort Wayne, Indiana.



http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html

http://hindsfoot.org/nftwayn1.html



"Dr. Zweig: The Good Physician"



[John S. in Fort Wayne (who writes the

anonymous John Barleycorn column about A.A.

in the Waynedale News) has given us the story

of Dr. Zweig, a physician who was not an

alcoholic himself, but who reached out to

help struggling alcoholics long before the

medical profession as a whole began to

recognize A.A. and the modern understanding of

alcoholism as a disease. Dr. Zweig's memory

is lovingly preserved in Fort Wayne A.A. as

one of their great heroes.]



The story Dr. Zweig told me before his 1994

death, was that after he was discharged from

the Army in 1945 he returned to Fort Wayne.

Doc was not an alcoholic himself, but he was

a deeply caring and compassionate man -- the

living example of the Good Physician -- who

became deeply involved in helping A.A. after

he saw what the program could accomplish.



Soon after returning to the Fort, he (Dr. Zweig)

ran into a former patient whom he had diagnosed

as a chronic alcoholic. Doc said it was a

consternation to him because the man was sober

now, and he was of the opinion, as was the

American Medical Association, that chronic

alcoholism was not treatable. Doc's conundrum:

"Did he incorrectly diagnose this man or was

there a cure?" Doc asked the man how long he'd

been sober and he said about two years.



Doc asked his patient how he'd gotten sober

and the man said, "I've been going to an AA

meeting in Huntington." That is a town of

around 16,000 population twenty miles or so

southwest of Fort Wayne. Doc was inducted into

the Army after the Japanese attacked Pearl

Harbor in December 1941 and was in the Army

from 1942 until 1945. If Doc's alcoholic

patient had his facts right that would've

put him at an A.A. meeting in Huntington

sometime in 1943.



Doc asked if he could go to the next meeting

with him, the man said yes, and when Doc

attended the A.A. meeting in Huntington he

found two other former patients for whom he

had also written "chronic alcoholic" on their

medical charts. They too were now sober.



Doc said he returned to the Fort and immedi-

ately talked with a judge and asked him to

take the next chronic alcoholic whom he was

going to sentence to Richmond State Hospital,

and assign custody of that person to him

instead. At that point, the judge was about

to sentence a woman named Street Car Sally

to Richmond, so he instead assigned her to

Doc's custody. Doc said the woman was covered

with every parasite known to man and that she

was turning tricks for six packs while living

in an abandoned street car.



Doc took Street Car Sally to Huntington and

those alcoholics' wives fed, bathed, and

clothed her, worked the steps with her, and

had her attend their meetings while Doc drove

to Huntington each day and gave her a vitamin

B12 shot. Three months later Doc took Sally

back before the same judge and when the judge

called her name he looked around the courtroom

and said to the bailiff, "She's not here." Doc

said to the judge, "Your honor, she's standing

right here!"



Sally was such a changed person, the judge

couldn't even recognize her anymore. In spite

of the fact that he had asked to be allowed to

do this experiment, Doc was equally amazed at

the difference that three months of A.A. had

made in her. He said, "John, I believed I had

witnessed a miracle of biblical proportions!"



Perhaps partly to protect his own medical

reputation at first, Doc worked with A.A. on

a totally anonymous basis from 1945 until 1955,

when the American Medical Association finally

recognized alcoholism as an illness. He decided

at that point that he did not want any kind of

personal credit anyway for the work he was

doing, and so he was careful to retain his

anonymity even after that. He had come to

understand how the A.A. way of life worked,

and had come to realize that the best kind of

service to others is the kind in which we seek

no thanks or rewards for ourselves at all.



Doc and some other local doctors attempted to

introduce A.A. into Russia via some other

medical doctors whom they met in Berlin, but

had no success at that time. It was going to

take a while to penetrate behind the Iron

Curtain, where the authorities were suspicious

of anything coming out of the western world,

and the government was officially atheistic.



A.A. was first established in Fort Wayne on

December 7, 1941, by C. L. Buckley and three

other alcoholics. The group he founded, which

was later called the Buckley Group, was the

first in Fort Wayne. But even in 1945, A.A.

was so little publicized that Dr. Zweig was

not aware that there was a group right there

in Fort Wayne. Since his former patients were

attending an A.A.meeting in Huntington, that

was the only A.A. group he knew about. So at

first he and his alcoholic patients were

driving the twenty plus miles to Huntington

instead of attending the Buckley group back

home in the Fort.



I have never been able to nail down where A.A.

in Huntington originally came from. Did it come

there from the Buckley Group, which had been

inspired by their contact with Indianapolis

A.A.? The old timers I've talked with so far,

said they were not certain, but suspected that

A.A. came to Huntington from an Evansville

newspaper editor at abut the same time the

Buckley Group came to Fort Wayne from Indy. I

suspect the old guys might be right, because

if the Huntington meeting had come from the

Fort, why would Doc's former alcoholic patients

have been driving all the way down to Huntington

at the beginning instead of just attending the

Buckley Group right at home? The Huntington

people would have told them right away about

the group they already had in Fort Wayne.



[Editor's note: Editor: This was probably

J. D. Holmes, the founder of A.A. in Indiana,

who worked for the Evansville newspaper, and

traveled all over Indiana founding AA groups

and bringing literature to new AA groups.]



- - - -



[On AA in Fort Wayne, Indiana, see also

http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html

"A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth Finds God

in the A.A. Meetings," by John Barleycorn]


0 -1 0 0
4949 Bob Schultz
Re: The Stools and Bottle Talk The Stools and Bottle Talk 4/6/2008 4:27:00 PM


http://www.epinions.com/content_75295788676



Don't know if this is what you were after.

If not disregard .... Gads, I learn a lot

from this group!!!



bob s





----- Original Message -----

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 3:12 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Stools and Bottle Talk





I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a

tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like

to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or

know how to purchase the props for the talk?



shakey mike gwirtz


0 -1 0 0
4950 Arthur Sheehan
RE: William James and Appendix William James and Appendix 4/1/2008 12:43:00 AM


There are two major errors in the Spiritual

Experience Appendix in the Big Book.



The first error is that James never used the

term "educational variety" (nor did he use

the term "experiential").



The second error in the appendix is the

attribution of the "... contempt prior to

investigation" citation to Herbert Spencer.

It should be attributed to William Paley.



In 1901, Harvard professor William James

presented the "Gifford Lecture Series on

Natural Religion" at the University of

Aberdeen in Edinburgh, Scotland. His

lectures were published in 1902 in a

critically acclaimed book titled "The

Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study

In Human Nature."



James cited numerous examples of two styles

of spiritual transformation, one was gradual

and the other was sudden and dramatic. He did

not represent one form as superior to the

other.



32 years after its publication, a copy of

the book was given to Bill W during his last

stay in Towns Hospital. Bill found it deeply

inspiring by its revealing 3 key points for

recovery:



1st: the need for a complete defeat in a vital

area of life (or what we today call "hitting

bottom")



2nd: the admission of defeat (or what we today

call "acceptance") and



3rd: an appeal to a higher power for help

(or what we today call "surrender"). These

spiritual principles later became the basis

for Steps 1, 2 and 3.



In March 1941, almost two years after the

first printing of the first edition Big Book,

the wording of Step 12 was changed in the

second printing. The term "spiritual experience"

was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the

term "as the result of these steps" was changed

to "as the result of those steps."



An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was

added. Many members thought they had to have

a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience

similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital.

The appendix emphasized that most spiritual

experiences developed slowly over time and

were of the "educational variety."



As a follow on to James' characterization of

conversion experiences it is useful to download

either a searchable PDF or text file version

of the book and then do a string search using

either "sudden" or "gradual." You'll discover

repeated instances where both are described

as different means to the same end with the

end result being what is important - not how

you got there.



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rdg1649

Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:53 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] William James and Appendix



It is true that James used the term experiental

rather than educational as Bill's appendix to

the Big Book states.



However, it has always struck me that there

is a far greater problem with this appendix.

Reading it I get the impression that Bill is

implying that it is o.k. if a member's

spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of

lightning' type as he describes his.



In fact, having read James, it is my

impression that James is saying the exact

opposite: That the most lasting and deep

are experiential and not revival type

surges of emotion as Bill describes his.



Seems to me that Bill acurately reports

that James noted a 'variety' of religious

experiences but not with the same emphasis/

orientation that Bill implies.


0 -1 0 0
4951 James Bliss
AA history from 1955 to the present AA history from 1955 to the present 4/6/2008 3:56:00 PM


Below is a brief history of the attempt to

publish the history from 1955 to the present.

It reflects the cost and the process which

this went through before it was finally

discarded. I have also provided some specula-

tion about who the various writers might have

been, drawing that information from a few

different resources.



Hopefully this will be of interest to the

members of this group.



The time line of events was:



1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which

was provided to the Trustees Literature

Committee. They felt it was not appropriate.

A second writer was selected. He was unable

to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was

asked to withdraw from the project.



1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written

“Pass It On” and began work. A draft she

prepared was reviewed by the Trustees

Literature Committee and to ‘readers’ with

special expertise. They provided suggestions

and comments which were incorporated.



1992 - the Conference Literature Committee

received the ‘final’ manuscript from writer 3



1993 – Although there was some unhappiness

regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on

to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee.

Contractual differences arose between the

author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned



1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain

sections and write a new one. This fairly

complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993

Conference Literature Committee who recommended

the project be deferred for 2 years so that a

new group from AA could look at it with fresh

ideas.



The project died at this time.



The following was a review of the history as

provided by AAWS:



1985 – the Conference Literature Committee

formed a subcommittee to develop an outline

for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985

similar to “A.A. Comes of Age”



1986 – An outline for a definitive history

was prepared and forwarded to the Conference

Literature Committee for consideration. The

Conference Literature Committee recommended

that a definitive book on A.A. history from

1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the

1987 Conference.



1987 – The committee reviewed the progress

report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was

indicated that the first draft manuscript to

included 26 chapters of approximately 700

pages would be ready by the January 1988

deadline.



1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter

and table of contents of the first draft

manuscript of the A.A. History Book and

recommended that it be referred to the

Conference Literature Committee. The 1988

Conference recommended that work continue on

the A.A. History Book.



Following the Conference, the committee

affirmed:



- the Trustees Literature Committee will

assume responsibility for this project through

a subcommittee



- the publications director will be asked to

find a writer whose specialty is history and

that the current writer will continue the

effort of obtaining missing area histories



- it was the consensus of the committee that

the section on area histories should be treated

as a separate archival project



- it was suggested that the Conference

Literature Committee be asked for suggestions

with regard to how the material should be

handled



1989 – The area histories were separated from

the first manuscript and forwarded to the

Archives Committee on the recommendation of

the 1989 Conference Literature Committee



Writers experienced in producing historical

reviews were asked to submit outlines for the

subcommittee prior to the Conference so that

a status report could be prepared for the

Conference Literature Committee. The sub-

committee selected a writer and a timetable

with estimated completion in January, 1991.

The Conference Literature Committee recommended

that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded

focusing on major events and developments

since the co-founders turned A.A. over to

the Fellowship, rather than centering on the

beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91

areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued.



1990 – the subcommittee’s review of the outline

and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the

guidelines along with the suggestion for

stronger editorial control, and recommended

that the summary of progress be provided to

the Conference Literature Committee, along

with the reaffirmation that draft copies not

be circulated in advance of the completion

of the manuscript. In late February the sub-

committee and author part and the search for

a replacement was undertaken. An experienced

writer, with broad background with A.A.

literature was subsequently hired). The

Conference Literature Committee recommended

that the project continue to completion. This

became a Conference Action.



1991 – the subcommittee reported that the

project was on schedule with the manuscript

to be delivered by March, 1992.



1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee

recommended that the A.A. History Book be

forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit-

tee. The Conference Literature Committee

recommended that the manuscript be returned

to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee

and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference

Literature Committee.



1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft

manuscript was forwarded to the Conference

Literature Committee which recommended that

the project be deferred for 2 years so that

a new team of A.A. servants can look at the

history book with fresh ideas.



1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed

and did not approve a request to revive the

History Book project. Conference Literature

Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the

Conference: “That the manuscript originally

commissioned as a history book be relabeled

“collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous”

and that it be placed in the Archives and made

available for purchase at a cost upon request

after editing for anonymity and various speci-

fic concerns relating to accuracy of content

and style.



1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee

discussed requests regarding the draft of

the A.A. History Book written by <writer 3

from the first description above> (and others)

and agreed that it not be made available

in the Archives or anywhere else since it

runs the risk of becoming ‘unofficial’ A.A.

literature and could involve legal problems.



1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee

forwarded to the Conference Literature

Committee an area request that a second

history book be developed. The Conference

Literature Committee agreed there was no

compelling need to develop this project.



Expenses:



Paid 86 – 92



224,000

117,000

_______



341,000 (sub total)



1992 - 5,000



1992 - 8,000



1993 - 26,000

_______



380,000 (total)



From some information I was provided (from

Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation

which I have, I am speculating:



Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure

speculation but appears to be well founded

from the follow up email. The alternative is

that he is writer 2 since the group history

was not the focus of his material and writer 1

appeared to focus more on the history of the

groups rather that AAWS.



Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure

speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if

his material was more focused on the groups

than AAWS.



Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my

documentation



Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly

minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding

much substantive content.



- - - -



Message 4942 from <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com) said:



"The attempt to write an AA history from 1955

had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference

approval for any type of historical work would

be one heck of a major challenge (and probably

rightfully so)."



- - - -



Message 4944 from "Mel Barger"

<melb@accesstoledo.com>

(melb at accesstoledo.com) said:



"You referred to the ill-starred attempt to

produce an AA history covering the period from

1955 on. I understand that this failed because

delegates were unhappy with the histories of

their own areas, for various reasons. The

project was finally shelved after spending a

small fortune producing a version. It

did get out somehow, and I have a copy for

occasional reference, but there is no approved

copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will

never have an authorized history covering

this period; the job will be left to outside

writers by default."


0 -1 0 0
4952 jenny andrews
Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 4/7/2008 5:22:00 AM


I guess Conference-approved means that that

literature carries the imprimatur, or at

least endorsement, of the Fellowship's

collective group conscience; but as the

Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many

helpful books also. Suggestions about these

may be obtained from one's priest, minister

or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,

I would add - or from Amazon or a library!



- - - -



From: pvttimt@aol.com

(pvttimt at aol.com)



If one studies history a bit, one begins to

see that any "true history" is simply the

aggregate experience of all who lived through

the events of interest. I'm thinking that

you may be doing a huge service to the

fellowship by compiling good primary reference

material for future historians to sift once

the old-timers that cause all the controversy

are gone from the scene! It's the old "blind

men describing the elephant" problem. No

"history" is ever complete, or completely

"true," whatever that is supposed to mean.



Best regards. Tim T., an alky



- - - -



From: joseph fischer <joehenryfish@yahoo.com>

(joehenryfish at yahoo.com)



Ernest Kurtz who wrote the book Not God was

given access to the archives.


0 -1 0 0
4953 Arthur Sheehan
RE: Significant April Dates in A.A. History Significant April Dates in A.A. History 4/7/2008 5:46:00 PM


From Arthur Sheehan, Tom Hickcox, and John Lee:



- - - -



From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com cometkazie1@cox.net >

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



At 23:34 3/31/2008 , you wrote:



>April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found

>a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford.



I believe we went round and round with this

a couple of years ago. There is no such place

as New Bedford, New York. Stepping Stones is

in Bedford Hills or Bedford. See what the

address is and who they pay local taxes to.

In that area one usually pays taxes to the

township the property is located within.



>April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches

>the only opening day no-hitter in baseball

>history since 1909.



It would be interesting to have the teams and

the score.



>April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented

>President Nixon with the one millionth copy

>of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first

>AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was

>formed. First 'mail order' group.



Was the Little Rock Group the mail order group?



>April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.



We might mention that he was Lois' brother.

At least I think he was.



>April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on

>Gabriel Heatter radio show.

>April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service

>Conference was held.



Where?



Tommy



- - - -



From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)



April 11, 1941: Bill and Lois' address was

Bedford Hills, not New Bedford. Stepping Stones

is actually located in Katonah, New York, not

Bedford Hills [if you ever choose to visit].



John Lee



- - - -



From the moderator: please see the next

message, number 4954, on Bedford, Bedford

Hills, and Katonah. The TOWN is named

Bedford.



Katonah is a hamlet at the north town line.

Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet

also contained within the Town of Bedford.



ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only

has a population of 18,133. This is NOT a

big, hairy deal. Just ask one of the locals

after you get there where 62 Oak Road is,

O.K. ????



Even the official Stepping Stones website

can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place

ought better be described as being in "Bedford

Hills" or in "Katonah," so they have it one

way on one page, and the other way on another.



Glenn C.



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chesbayman56

Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:35 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant April Dates in A.A. History



April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &

tell them of obsession & allergy.

April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best

Friend" by Jack Alexander.

April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest

desire to stop drinking".

April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service

Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.

April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.

April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big

Book.

April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used

to open AA meetings in Texas.

April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.

April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.

April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.

April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill

W's "spiritual sponsor."

April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking

for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack

Alexander.

April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the

office Bill and Hank P shared.

April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for

A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)

April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones

in New Bedford.

April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-

hitter in baseball history since 1909.

April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the

one millionth copy of the Big Book.

April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was

formed. First 'mail order' group.

April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was

formed in Seattle.

April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock

to the Alcoholic Foundation.

April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book

royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.

April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.

April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.

April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.

April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.

April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.

April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation

was broadcast on ABC TV.


0 -1 0 0
4954 Glenn Chesnut
Stepping Stones: Bedford, Bedford Hills, and Katonah Stepping Stones: Bedford, Bedford Hills, and Katonah 4/11/2008 5:00:00 PM


Where is Stepping Stones located, Bill and

Lois Wilson's home?



- - - -



It is not in "New Bedford." There are five

towns by this name in the United States, but

none of them are in the right state:



New Bedford, Massachusetts, the most populous

New Bedford, Illinois

New Bedford, New Jersey

New Bedford, Ohio

New Bedford, Pennsylvania



- - - -



The TOWN in New York state is named Bedford.



Katonah is a hamlet contained within the

Town of Bedford, located at the north town

line.



Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet

also contained within the Town of Bedford.



ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only

has a population of 18,133.



Even the official Stepping Stones website

can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place

ought better be described as being in

"Bedford Hills" or in "Katonah," so they

have it one way on one page, and the other

way on another.



- - - -



Stepping Stones: The Historic Home of Bill

and Lois Wilson



http://www.steppingstones.org/ says:



"Located 45 minutes north of NYC by car

and 1 hour by train, in Bedford Hills, NY"



- - - -



http://www.steppingstones.org/visiting.html says:



"62 Oak Road, Katonah, New York 10536"



- - - -



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katonah,_New_York says:



"Katonah, New York is one of three

unincorporated hamlets within the town

of Bedford, Westchester County."



"Katonah is often styled as a 'village' by

its residents. For example, its library is

called the Katonah Village Library. However,

'village' has a legal meaning in New York.

Katonah is not a village, but merely a hamlet,

a non-legally-defined section of a town.

Katonah does have its own ZIP code, 10536,

and a Metro-North station. It is also part of

the Katonah-Lewisboro school district."



- - - -



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Hills,_New_York says:



"Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet

in the Town of Bedford, New York. When the

railroad was built in 1847, Bedford Hills was

known as Bedford Station. Bedford Hills extends

from a business center at the railroad station

to farms and estates, eastward along Harris,

Babbitt and Bedford Center Roads and south

along the Route 117 business corridor up to

Mt. Kisco. Bedford Hills is the seat of

government of the Town of Bedford."



- - - -



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_%28town%29%2C_New_York says:



"Bedford is a town in Westchester County,

New York, USA. The population was 18,133 at

the 2000 census. The Town of Bedford is in

the central part of the county."



"Communities and locations in Bedford:



Bedford Village -- A hamlet in the southeast

part of the town, also known as Bedford.



Bedford Hills -- A hamlet in the Cross River

Reservoir -- A reservoir in the northern

portion of the town.



Katonah -- A hamlet at the north town line.



Bedford Corners -- A very small hamlet

neighboring larger town Mount Kisco."



Among the famous people who have lived there are:



"William G. Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics

Anonymous, resident of Bedford, 1941-1971.

Lois B. Wilson, co-founder of Al-Anon family

groups, resident of Bedford, 1941-1988."


0 -1 0 0
4955 jlobdell54
AA History before or after 1955 AA History before or after 1955 4/10/2008 9:26:00 AM


Some years ago (1997-8) a proposal was made

to the Trustees for a History of AA (to be

ready in 2010), but from the beginning (1935)

not from 1955.



It was, of course, not accepted. But the

terms of that proposal point up a problem.



AA COMES OF AGE does present pieces of a

history 1935-1955 from Bill's point of view.

Ernie's NOT GOD and the Barry Leach-Jack

Norris piece in Begleiter's monumental

multi-volume set do provide historical

materials up to 1977-79 (and then Ernie's

later edition into the early 1990s).



But huge amounts of local and regional

historical work are needed (over the entire

period from 1935 at least)-- and an acceptable

over-all framework needs to be set -- and we

need institutional history especially for more

recent years -- before anything like a full

history of AA from 1935 can be written (and

that by a professional historian who would

ideally also be a member of AA).



My own view, for what it's worth, is that we

cannot just begin in 1955, as though all that

had to be said for the time to 1955 had been

said in AA COMES OF AGE.



I think of two volumes for the history thus

far THE CHARISMATIC PERIOD: FROM THE BEGINNING

TO BILL'S DEATH (1934-1971) and THE PERIOD OF

ROUTINE: FROM BILL'S DEATH TO THE PRESENT

(1971-2008), and the two volumes would be

very different as the history is very

different -- but I also don't see it

happening.


0 -1 0 0
4956 jeffyour
Origin of the term "Character Defect" Origin of the term "Character Defect" 4/10/2008 9:46:00 AM


Good morning, all.



A question came up at my home group last week

and I promised to do a little digging to come

up with an 'informed' answer. Who better to

ask than all of you?



I've run a cursory search of the archives

of this discussion board and found nothing

that addresses the historical origin of the

term "Character Defects". There is nothing

as rigorous as the kind of scholarly exposure

that "contempt prior to investigation" has

received.



In message 2947:



In a July 1953 Grapevine article titled "A

Fragment of History - the Origin of the 12

Steps" Bill W identified the Oxford Group as

one of the 3 main channels of inspiration for

AA's 12 Steps. Bill identified the other 2

main channels of inspiration for the 12 Steps

as William James and Dr Silkworth.



In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 39) Bill wrote

"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination,

acknowledgment of character defects,

restitution for harm done, and working with

others straight from the Oxford Groups and

directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former

leader in America, and from nowhere else."



and in message 2460:



"From 1935 to 1948, The Upper Room was read

every morning by more AAs than any other

meditational work. Although the Oxford Group

had the greatest influence on the development

of early A.A. at the very beginning, The

Upper Room was clearly the second greatest

influence on early A.A. spirituality. You

can see the effect of ideas drawn from The

Upper Room throughout the first 164 pages of

the Big Book.



"For a quick look at the kinds of things the

Upper Room talked about, see

<http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html>, which

gives selections from the readings in some

of the issues of The Upper Room published

in 1938 and 1939, along with commentary

explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew

from this source: an important part of their

understanding of what was meant by character

and character defects, the emphasis on

happiness as an inside job, the idea of the

Divine Light within, and warnings against

being too imprisoned by doctrines..."



Is this a term directly from William James?

or from Oxford Group literature (and I wonder

where THEY got it?)



thx



In grateful service,



Jeffrey A. Your

Delegate

Area 54, Panel 57

Northeast Ohio General Service



216_691_0917 home



216_397_4244 work



216_397_1803 fax



216_496_7594 cell


0 -1 0 0
4957 David
Re: AA history from 1955 to the present AA history from 1955 to the present 4/10/2008 9:02:00 PM


$384,000 was expended on a book which was

never completed or allowed to be completed.

The Trustees Literature Committee then

"agreed that it not be made available in the

Archives or anywhere else since it runs the

risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature

and could involve legal problems."



Questions:



1. Have other pieces of literature, involving

over a quarter of a million dollars in

expenditures, been banned from the archives

and kept secret?



2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee

specifically cite the actual"legal problems"

it was concerned about? What were they?



3. Did the Trustees Literature Committee

explain what risk they were referring to

when speaking of "unofficial" AA literature?



4. Does anyone know how whether or not

separate service groups like the Trustees

Literature Committee regularly dictated what

another service group, like the Archives,

could do or could not do? In other words ...

is there a hierarchy of service groups?



It seems the Trustees Literature Committee

not only made the decision to abandon a

project in which it already had made a

sizable investment, it also "buried" all

materials generated from that outlay of

$384,000. I can see the former as part of

their role, but it seems over-reaching on

the latter. Did not Archives have a point

of view? What process resolves inherent

conflicts like this? Thanks!





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss <james.bliss@...>

wrote:

>

> Below is a brief history of the attempt to

> publish the history from 1955 to the present.

> It reflects the cost and the process which

> this went through before it was finally

> discarded. I have also provided some specula-

> tion about who the various writers might have

> been, drawing that information from a few

> different resources.

>

> Hopefully this will be of interest to the

> members of this group.

>

> The time line of events was:

>

> 1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which

> was provided to the Trustees Literature

> Committee. They felt it was not appropriate.

> A second writer was selected. He was unable

> to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was

> asked to withdraw from the project.

>

> 1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written

> "Pass It On" and began work. A draft she

> prepared was reviewed by the Trustees

> Literature Committee and to `readers' with

> special expertise. They provided suggestions

> and comments which were incorporated.

>

> 1992 - the Conference Literature Committee

> received the `final' manuscript from writer 3

>

> 1993 – Although there was some unhappiness

> regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on

> to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee.

> Contractual differences arose between the

> author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned

>

> 1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain

> sections and write a new one. This fairly

> complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993

> Conference Literature Committee who recommended

> the project be deferred for 2 years so that a

> new group from AA could look at it with fresh

> ideas.

>

> The project died at this time.

>

> The following was a review of the history as

> provided by AAWS:

>

> 1985 – the Conference Literature Committee

> formed a subcommittee to develop an outline

> for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985

> similar to "A.A. Comes of Age"

>

> 1986 – An outline for a definitive history

> was prepared and forwarded to the Conference

> Literature Committee for consideration. The

> Conference Literature Committee recommended

> that a definitive book on A.A. history from

> 1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the

> 1987 Conference.

>

> 1987 – The committee reviewed the progress

> report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was

> indicated that the first draft manuscript to

> included 26 chapters of approximately 700

> pages would be ready by the January 1988

> deadline.

>

> 1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter

> and table of contents of the first draft

> manuscript of the A.A. History Book and

> recommended that it be referred to the

> Conference Literature Committee. The 1988

> Conference recommended that work continue on

> the A.A. History Book.

>

> Following the Conference, the committee

> affirmed:

>

> - the Trustees Literature Committee will

> assume responsibility for this project through

> a subcommittee

>

> - the publications director will be asked to

> find a writer whose specialty is history and

> that the current writer will continue the

> effort of obtaining missing area histories

>

> - it was the consensus of the committee that

> the section on area histories should be treated

> as a separate archival project

>

> - it was suggested that the Conference

> Literature Committee be asked for suggestions

> with regard to how the material should be

> handled

>

> 1989 – The area histories were separated from

> the first manuscript and forwarded to the

> Archives Committee on the recommendation of

> the 1989 Conference Literature Committee

>

> Writers experienced in producing historical

> reviews were asked to submit outlines for the

> subcommittee prior to the Conference so that

> a status report could be prepared for the

> Conference Literature Committee. The sub-

> committee selected a writer and a timetable

> with estimated completion in January, 1991.

> The Conference Literature Committee recommended

> that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded

> focusing on major events and developments

> since the co-founders turned A.A. over to

> the Fellowship, rather than centering on the

> beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91

> areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued.

>

> 1990 – the subcommittee's review of the outline

> and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the

> guidelines along with the suggestion for

> stronger editorial control, and recommended

> that the summary of progress be provided to

> the Conference Literature Committee, along

> with the reaffirmation that draft copies not

> be circulated in advance of the completion

> of the manuscript. In late February the sub-

> committee and author part and the search for

> a replacement was undertaken. An experienced

> writer, with broad background with A.A.

> literature was subsequently hired). The

> Conference Literature Committee recommended

> that the project continue to completion. This

> became a Conference Action.

>

> 1991 – the subcommittee reported that the

> project was on schedule with the manuscript

> to be delivered by March, 1992.

>

> 1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee

> recommended that the A.A. History Book be

> forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit-

> tee. The Conference Literature Committee

> recommended that the manuscript be returned

> to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee

> and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference

> Literature Committee.

>

> 1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft

> manuscript was forwarded to the Conference

> Literature Committee which recommended that

> the project be deferred for 2 years so that

> a new team of A.A. servants can look at the

> history book with fresh ideas.

>

> 1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed

> and did not approve a request to revive the

> History Book project. Conference Literature

> Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the

> Conference: "That the manuscript originally

> commissioned as a history book be relabeled

> "collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous"

> and that it be placed in the Archives and made

> available for purchase at a cost upon request

> after editing for anonymity and various speci-

> fic concerns relating to accuracy of content

> and style.

>

> 1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee

> discussed requests regarding the draft of

> the A.A. History Book written by <writer 3

> from the first description above> (and others)

> and agreed that it not be made available

> in the Archives or anywhere else since it

> runs the risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.

> literature and could involve legal problems.

>

> 1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee

> forwarded to the Conference Literature

> Committee an area request that a second

> history book be developed. The Conference

> Literature Committee agreed there was no

> compelling need to develop this project.

>

> Expenses:

>

> Paid 86 – 92

>

> 224,000

> 117,000

> _______

>

> 341,000 (sub total)

>

> 1992 - 5,000

>

> 1992 - 8,000

>

> 1993 - 26,000

> _______

>

> 380,000 (total)

>

> From some information I was provided (from

> Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation

> which I have, I am speculating:

>

> Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure

> speculation but appears to be well founded

> from the follow up email. The alternative is

> that he is writer 2 since the group history

> was not the focus of his material and writer 1

> appeared to focus more on the history of the

> groups rather that AAWS.

>

> Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure

> speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if

> his material was more focused on the groups

> than AAWS.

>

> Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my

> documentation

>

> Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly

> minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding

> much substantive content.

>

> - - - -

>

> Message 4942 from ArtSheehan@...

> (ArtSheehan at msn.com) said:

>

> "The attempt to write an AA history from 1955

> had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference

> approval for any type of historical work would

> be one heck of a major challenge (and probably

> rightfully so)."

>

> - - - -

>

> Message 4944 from "Mel Barger"

> melb@...

> (melb at accesstoledo.com) said:

>

> "You referred to the ill-starred attempt to

> produce an AA history covering the period from

> 1955 on. I understand that this failed because

> delegates were unhappy with the histories of

> their own areas, for various reasons. The

> project was finally shelved after spending a

> small fortune producing a version. It

> did get out somehow, and I have a copy for

> occasional reference, but there is no approved

> copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will

> never have an authorized history covering

> this period; the job will be left to outside

> writers by default."

>


0 -1 0 0
4958 jlobdell54
Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 4/11/2008 5:27:00 PM


Cleveland Indians vs. Chicago White Sox,

WP Bob Feller LP Edgar Smith. Score 1-0.



Only run was batted in by Catcher Rollie

Hemsley.



An autographed game ball was given by Rollie

to Dr. Bob and I believe is in the collection

at Brown. I believe Bob Feller may still be

alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone

has approached him for his recollections of

Rollie, or if indeed they exist already.


0 -1 0 0
4959 Al Welch
Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 4/10/2008 8:53:00 AM


From Al Welch and junebug0619



- - - -



From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>

(welch at a-1associates.com)



Another definition of Conference-approved is

that it is owned by, printed by and distributed

only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't

necessarily think that is a bad thing - it

just sounds that way!)



- - - -



From: junebug0619@aol.com

(junebug0619 at aol.com)



I agree that there are many helpful books

outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous

is a text book for sobriety. I need info for

the heart and soul.



----- Original Message -----

From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

To: <aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955





>I guess Conference-approved means that that

> literature carries the imprimatur, or at

> least endorsement, of the Fellowship's

> collective group conscience; but as the

> Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many

> helpful books also. Suggestions about these

> may be obtained from one's priest, minister

> or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,

> I would add - or from Amazon or a library!


0 -1 0 0
4960 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 4/11/2008 4:01:00 PM


From Jerry Logsdon and Buck R.



- - - -



From Jerry Logsdon <aalogsdon@aol.com>

(aalogsdon at aol.com)



I have talked to Bob Feller on three different

occasions about Rollie Hemsley and had him

sign baseballs IN MEMORY OF ROLLIE HEMSLEY.

I have a large collection of Hemsley photos

and some of these Feller identified for me and

recalled incidents about the photographs. He

was still sharp and knows a great deal about

Hemsley.



He (Feller) will be appearing in person at his

museum in Van Meter, Iowa on Saturday, June 21.

The phone number there is 515_996_2806.



I have been communicating with a gentleman who

is in the process of writing a book regarding

Hemsley and have shared information with him.

I have four autographed baseballs from Hemsley

and more items.



Jerry Logsdon

714_321_7665



- - - -



From: Buck R. = Jonathan Rose

<jbuckrose1@mac.com> (jbuckrose1 at mac.com)



In his book "Now Pitching, Bob Feller: A

Baseball Memoir", Feller makes numerous

mention of Rollie Hemsley. Feller, by the

way, is the second oldest living Baseball

Hall of Famer.



On page 16 he talks about "Rollickin'

Rollie Hemsley and his alcohol-inspired

Superman feats like tip-toeing along hotel

ledges ten floors above downtown streets";



On page 73: "But I've always had enormous

respect for Rollie Hemsley because he did

something that the rest of us might not have

been strong enough to do. Cy Slapnicka

convinced Rollie to join Alcoholics Anonymous

after he got off to such a rocky start with

us in 1938. As an incentive, Slap gave a

large diamond ring to Rollie's daughter, the

person who meant more to him than anyone else

in the world. It worked. Rollie took the

pledge. He drank about a case of Cokes a day

for a while because he needed that sugar that

he wasn't getting from booze any more, but he

never went back to the hard stuff."



(Note: Cy Slapnicka was the Indians' General

Manager)



in fellowship,

Buck R.



- - - -



From the moderator:



Rollie Hemsley = Ralston Burdett Hemsley



photo at

http://www.aabibliography.com/aahtml3/rollynews.jpg



photo and part of his story at

http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/catchers/hemsley.htm



photo and brief story at

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Rollie_Hemsley_1907


0 -1 0 0
4961 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 4/12/2008 1:44:00 AM


Hi Al



GSO does not have an ownership role. I don't

mean to split hairs but at times the acronym

"GSO" is used when the correct acronym is

"AAWS." AA World Services, Inc (AAWS) and

AA Grapevine, Inc are the legal corporate

entities that hold and preserve copyrights,

trademarks and service marks owned by AA.

The GSO also produces a number of literature

items that are not Conference-approved (i.e.

service pieces).



Page S70 of the Service Manual states: "The

General Service Board is responsible for the

General Service Office and the Grapevine, and

it takes care of its administrative duties

through two operating corporations. One is

A.A. World Services, Inc., which oversees the

General Service Office and publishes A.A.’s

books and pamphlets. The other is The A.A.

Grapevine, Inc., which oversees the Grapevine

office and publishes and distributes the A.A.

Grapevine magazine, the Spanish edition,

La Viña, and related items. The two entities

need to be incorporated in order to accomplish

such tasks as publishing and distributing

literature, handling funds, and conducting

other vital aspects of A.A.’s business."



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Welch

Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 7:53 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955



From Al Welch and junebug0619



- - - -



From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>

(welch at a-1associates.com)



Another definition of Conference-approved is

that it is owned by, printed by and distributed

only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't

necessarily think that is a bad thing - it

just sounds that way!)



- - - -



From: junebug0619@aol.com

(junebug0619 at aol.com)



I agree that there are many helpful books

outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous

is a text book for sobriety. I need info for

the heart and soul.



----- Original Message -----

From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

To: <aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955





>I guess Conference-approved means that that

> literature carries the imprimatur, or at

> least endorsement, of the Fellowship's

> collective group conscience; but as the

> Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many

> helpful books also. Suggestions about these

> may be obtained from one's priest, minister

> or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,

> I would add - or from Amazon or a library!


0 -1 0 0
4962 gmaxham
Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill 4/12/2008 2:50:00 PM


Hello



Can you tell me what these records are? A man

here in Maine has a set of three.



I think I can get them recorded if they're

worth doing. He wants to leave them with his

family. But I've been working on it with him.



Thank you,



Gordon Maxham

Area 28 archivist





Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill

on red records.



I should explain a little more, I think I know

what's on the records. Just have never seen on

red records. Are these originals or what? Have

researched the Internet for two or three years

and still have never seen red records like

these.



Thank you Gordon


0 -1 0 0
4963 gmaxham
Early AA member Mary Martto Early AA member Mary Martto 4/12/2008 3:02:00 PM


We have a first edition first printing Big

Book with all kinds of interesting signatures

from Stepping Stones.



The woman's name that it belonged to is

Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman

is? We were told she is the second or third

woman in AA.



Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham


0 -1 0 0
4964 ricktompkins
Re: AA history from 1955 to the present AA history from 1955 to the present 4/11/2008 11:44:00 PM


Frank B., a past Chicago Area 19 Delegate to the Conference in the early

1990s, sat on Trustees Literature Committee as an Appointed Committee Member

in the mid-to-late 1990s. It was not a glorious post because the ACMs had

large tasks to perform for the Literature Committee. Frank shared one of his

assignments: the immense editing on our second AA History book that the

Trustees Literature Committee had undertaken in conjunction with an AA

Archives request. Simply, there had to be some of the writing that could be

available to the Fellowship as an accessible history, to aid in further

research. This was the last effort for an AA historybook (the one that

followed Bob P.'s effort in the 1980s) and has David's list of questions on

much of the process.



The General Service Conference's Conference Literature Committee reviewed

the manuscript as presented by Trustees Literature Committee in 1993 and

found it lacking a needed AA vitality and general relevance. Eventually the

edited manuscript was placed in the AA Archives with the AA Archivist's

notice (with the full support of the Trustees Archives Committee) that any

legitimate AA Archives Committee (Area or District) could receive copied

sections from the manuscript that related to the requestor's specific Region

and location.



I served my Illinois Area 20 as Archivist from 1998-2002 and received a copy

from the section written about history in the East Central Region (the Great

Lakes, from Wisconsin east to Ohio). Believe me, it was too dry to keep my

own interest. What the authors considered as relevant appeared to me as

irrelevant---name dropping, vague site descriptions, and no real coherence

or continuity in the chronicle. And, if this historybook was supposed to

detail AA's history past 1955, why did it have the supposed origins of ECR

groups back to the 1940s? The facts were generally incorrect and too vague,

very few 'interviewees' contributed what the manuscript presented as fact,

and so on. I can agree with the 1993 Conference Literature Committee that

this work was not up to any AA standard of excellence.



I am cynical to share that the manuscript could have been chapters that were

struck from "Dr. Bob and the Oldtimers," but my disappointment in the work

was that there was too little of the history it was supposed to be i.e.

post-1955 AA. That's the main reason that the edited manuscript is titled

"Collected Observations of AA." There was nothing comprehensive about it,

just a few tidbits of detail that only a few AA historians could sink their

teeth into. And, as an AA Historian, I found the writing as misleading.



The sets of authors (three?) tried, and short of a breach of contract

lawsuit against the General Service Board, all were paid for their

professional services.







Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of Age" as the Fellowship's initial

history effort? Bill assembled the chapters and stories in that work like

the adventure he had witnessed during our formative years. And longtime AAs

received it that way, ensuring future AA generations that it had great

relevance and provenance! AACA has many contributors and tells the

'adventure' of a developed unity out of many divergent positions of how: how

AA grew, how AAs served, how AA may have fallen short, and most importantly

how AA survived.



Perhaps the next Fellowship-wide history draft could keep this perspective

in sight.



AACA is a very tough 'act' to follow---with the Conference disapproval and

failure of the two historybook efforts through the 1990s, a general

consensus began to develop, and seemed to replace the

"AA-as-a-whole-history" need (rather a 'want' no?) with a sense that local

(anywhere from an AA District to an AA Area to an AA Region) histories could

be completed.



In late 1993, after the debacle of this second history book effort failed

the approval of the Conference, discussion here in Northern Illinois was as

simple as this: if the Conference can't get a history completed and pass

muster, we can! Not fully cognizant of the implications, I volunteered to

attempt to write it. My service at that time was two years of District

Archives development (from scratch!), two years as a District Secretary, and

eight years of sobriety with a love and appreciation of AA's heritage. The

Assembly approved my proposal and I went to work at it. Please note that

this sharing is not so much about me but can serve as an example of one AA's

effort to preserve our message for future AAs. As written in the Preface, it

turns out that the joy is in the search and discovery.



The AA Archives assisted with answering any question I had, and the

Archivist at the time, Frank M., provided me actual letters and relatively

confidential information with my own commitment to protect its anonymity.

The Chicago Archives (at the time, scattered around the Area Office)was also

a huge resource. The Chicago Historical Society had very relevant Illinois

AA items, too, previously contributed from a 1989 Chicago Archives

Committee.



A close friend and past Area 20 (n. Illinois) Delegate and past Area

Archives Committee Chair, Hank G., turned out to be my "Pathfinder" on the

research.



My own Area's Archives had its fist extensive sorting and cataloguing

completed as a result. Two years later, sufficiently humbled that my Area

had something relevant and accurate, I enlisted an Ad Hoc committee of ten

longtimers and trusted servants to review it---think of a friendly Grand

Jury investigation that could call any detail into question for me to prove

as cross-referenced and double-checked.



The Area Assembly approved the proposal to print it in June 1996, and 1500

historybooks were distributed and/or purchased until it was considered as

out-of-print. By 2002, it was posted on the Area website as a massive Adobe

Acrobat Reader document. By 2001, further research brought my proposal to

update the book into a Second Issue, and my Assembly approved the venture.

In 2003, the same review process took place as had happened in 1996, and

this time the entire work was re-written with the reviewing help of a close

AA friend with a 'magna cum laude' B.A. degree in English literature. The

Second Issue's Assembly-approved printing was scaled down to 300 books that

were distributed and/or purchased within two years...But, as planned, it was

intended to be posted on the Area website, where it remains "in print" today

(as an even larger PDF file). Go to www.aa-nia.org and search for it!







Conference approval is a lengthy and complicated process that proves the

description of AA's prudent speed of "Slow, or Stopped."



Thankfully my Area's speed was "slow" about publishing its own history.



I believe that if a post-1955 AA history is written with the caliber and

details of a "Not-God" or "AA Comes Of Age" effort, it would still have a

rough time getting through our Conference's committee system. But I could be

wrong.



Meanwhile, many efforts continue with significant results for our AA history

and most of those efforts and publishing have been discussed and announced

here in this egroup. There are many successes that parallel what happened

in Northern Illinois Area here!



As a simple "member" of my Area Archives Committee today, thanks for

hearing my view.



Rick, Illinois



















From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David

Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:03 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA history from 1955 to the present



$384,000 was expended on a book which was

never completed or allowed to be completed.

The Trustees Literature Committee then

"agreed that it not be made available in the

Archives or anywhere else since it runs the

risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature

and could involve legal problems."

Questions:

1. Have other pieces of literature, involving

over a quarter of a million dollars in

expenditures, been banned from the archives

and kept secret?

2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee

specifically cite the actual"legal problems"

it was concerned about? What were they?

<SNIP>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
4965 Cindy Miller
Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 4/12/2008 12:29:00 PM


On Apr 11, 2008, at 5:27 PM, jlobdell54 wrote:



> I believe Bob Feller may still be

> alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone

> has approached him for his recollections of

> Rollie, or if indeed they exist already.



- - - -



From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



He is still alive--indeed, I heard him

just a few weeks ago on a sports radio

show--lamenting the new era of pitch counts,

the DH, set-up pitchers and closers, and

other MLB innovations!



-cm



`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>



- - - -



From: "Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>

(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)



There is a baseball signed by the 1948 World

Series Champion Cleveland Indians at Brown

University in the Robert H. Smith collection.

The ball is signed by the entire team, incl.

Rollie Hemsley. I have pictures if anyone is

interested.



Chris


0 -1 0 0
4966 James Blair
Re: AA history from 1955 to the present AA history from 1955 to the present 4/13/2008 4:46:00 PM


Rick wrote:



> Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of

> Age" as the Fellowship's initial history

> effort? Bill assembled the chapters and

> stories in that work like the adventure he

> had witnessed during our formative years.



If you have a set of tapes from the Conference

in St. Louis in 1955, it is easy to note that

most of the text is transscribed from the tapes.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
4967 junebug0619@aol.com
Re: Early AA member Mary Martto Early AA member Mary Martto 4/14/2008 12:11:00 AM


Could the signature be "Marty Mann" instead of

"Mary Martto"?



- - - -



In a message dated 4/13/2008 3:26:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

gmaxham@yahoo.com writes:



We have a first edition first printing Big

Book with all kinds of interesting signatures

from Stepping Stones.



The woman's name that it belonged to is

Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman

is? We were told she is the second or third

woman in AA.



Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham


0 -1 0 0
4968 Carol W
Reader''s Digest Reader''s Digest 4/13/2008 7:23:00 PM


Hello,



I was wondering how many stories about AA

figures were printed in the Reader's Digest

Condensed Books? Whose stories were printed?



I know of only 2 stories: "My name is Bill W."

& "Bill W" by Robert Thomsen.



I am interested in finding more books in the

Reader's Digest series, including AA people

in addition to Bill W.



Thank you,

Carol W


0 -1 0 0
4969 dijmo
Historical Perspective on the ICYPAA conference Historical Perspective on the ICYPAA conference 4/14/2008 10:55:00 PM


The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008

in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org



We have been working with the program commit-

tee to get a slot on the program for a panel

meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely

title for this panel is "Historical Perspective

on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that

hosted ICYPAA over the decades).



We would like to have three prearranged

panelists, one that was involved in hosting

an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was

involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the

70's and one from the 80's.



After each of these folks have shared a little

bit about what it was like and what it meant

for their sobriety, we will open it up for

sharing from the floor.



For those of you who may know of Bill D., he

has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker.

Bill was involved in organizing the first

ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second!

If that's not enough, he first came to AA at

age 19, in New York and attended meetings with

Bill W. and many other early AAs.



Lizzie Schrock

Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee

lizzieschrock@hotmail.com

530/906/9854



or



Melanie Elliott

Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee

melhermann@aol.com

323/356/0432


0 -1 0 0
4970 corafinch
Re: Origin of the term "Character Defect" Origin of the term "Character Defect" 4/15/2008 9:28:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"jeffyour" <jyour@...> wrote:

>

> I've run a cursory search of the archives

> of this discussion board and found nothing

> that addresses the historical origin of the

> term "Character Defects".



- - - -



The opening paragraph from a 1928 book, The

Psychology of Character, With a Survey of

Temperment, A.A. Roback, author:



"There is one department of psychology in

which no progress has been made for about two

thousand years, in spite of the fact that it

was perhaps the first topic to attract

attention . . . .the interlocked subject

character and temperament which, though

forming the core of any study of human nature,

have continued to remain in the speculative

stage, while other psychological material was

being subjected to experimental scrutiny. Only

recently have these siblings been examined

anew under the more comprehensive head of

personality. . ."



"Defects of character" was an expression used

commonly in the late 19th-early 20th centuries.

I don't think you will be able to find a

specific source for Wilson's use of it. The

phrase "defects of character" as used then

might be similar to what psychologists today

would call "personality disorders" if they

are present in a severe form. In traditional

psychological theory these are felt to be

relatively immutable once childhood has

passed.



Where James comes into it, is that he believed

strongly in the changeability of character

through overwhelming transformational experi-

ences of a mystical type. The Oxford Groupers

adopted the Jamesian (pragmatic) view and

morphed it with a brand of "second blessing"

theology which was by then a little dated.

They brushed it off and polished it up with

some dynamic-psychology theory so it would

have a wider appeal.



Cora


0 -1 0 0
4971 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill 4/13/2008 9:29:00 PM


I believe that they have already been put on

CDs. I have a set of three of these red

recordings and have them loaned out to a taper.



I think they are recordings of Bill W made in

1947. Can do follow-up if necessary.


0 -1 0 0
4972 Glenn Chesnut
Stepping Stones Annual Picnic Stepping Stones Annual Picnic 4/18/2008 8:58:00 PM


From: "Stepping Stones" <info@steppingstones.org>

(info at steppingstones.org)



Dear Friend of Stepping Stones -



Spring has definitely come to Stepping Stones,

the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson in

Bedford, New York. The daffodils and tulips

are in bloom, the annual picnic is soon upon

us and visitors are waking up from a long

winter's nap and stopping by for guided tours

daily.



Spring brings important updates for the

Stepping Stones family - people like you.



The 56th Annual Picnic is Saturday,

June 7, 2008, at noon. It's only a one-hour

train ride from New York City, so please

be sure to join us and help spread the

word! For a flyer or more information,

please visit the new and improved website

at www.steppingstones.org


0 -1 0 0
4973 Bill Lash
A.A. History Weekend, East Dorset VT, 8/22-24/08 A.A. History Weekend, East Dorset VT, 8/22-24/08 4/19/2008 8:08:00 AM


A.A. History Weekend - The Stories

and Pictures of How A.A. Began



with Mitchell K., Bill McN., & Barefoot Bill



August 22-24, 2008



at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson, AA

co-founder, was born)



378 Village Street

East Dorset, VT 05253



To register for the weekend & reserve a room,

please call the Wilson House at 802/362/5524.

____________________



Mitchell K. is author of the book about his

sponsor called "How It Worked: The Story of

Clarence Snyder & the Early Days of A.A. in

Cleveland, Ohio." He has also collaborated

with several other authors on books relating

to AA history.



Bill McN. will be performing live his popular

plays titled "Moments - An Evening With Bill

W." and "Scapedream - Dr. Bob...Pure & Simple".



A video performance of his Lois W. play will

also be shown (she was Bill W.'s wife and

co-founder of Al-Anon).



Barefoot Bill will be doing a three-hour talk

and picture show called "An AA History Present-

ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA".

____________________



SCHEDULE:



Friday night 8/22/08 (after the regularly

scheduled AA meeting) - Lois Wilson one-woman

play video



Saturday morning 8/23/08 9:00 to 10:20am -

Bill McN. performing live his Dr. Bob one-man

play



Saturday morning 8/23/08 10:40 to 12noon -

Mitchell K. talk/presentation



Saturday afternoon 8/23/08 1:00 to 4:00pm

(w/break) - Barefoot Bill's AA History Present-

ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA



Saturday night 8/23/08 (after the regularly

scheduled AA meeting) - Clarence Snyder video

talk



Sunday morning 8/24/08 9:00 to 10:20am -

Mitchell K. talk/presentation



Sunday morning 8/24/08 10:40 to 12noon -

Bill McN. performing live his Bill Wilson

one-man play


0 -1 0 0
4974 jlobdell54
Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown 4/16/2008 5:38:00 PM


I don't have a picture of the ball, but my

impression had been that it was from 1940,

when Rollie, recently sober through AA, was a

member of the Cleveland Indians and caught

Bob Feller's no-hitter, and not from 1948,

when Rollie had retired (and in any case so

far as I know his last year with the Indians

was 1941). Not to say he couldn't have gotten

and signed a 1948 team ball for Dr. Bob (I

know he managed in AAA ball at Columbus in

1950, so he could have been in Ohio -- and

perhaps he coached for Cleveland in 1948,

though I don't remember him there), but in

any case I'm curious. Key signatures to show

1948 would probably be Joe Gordon and Satchel

Paige.


0 -1 0 0
4975 johnhartie
bills story bills story 4/17/2008 4:18:00 AM


In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed

the ticker said xyz-32. Is that a minus sign

before the 32?



- - - -



From the moderator: (Big Book p. 4) the stock

whose symbol on the stock ticker was XYZ-32,

was Penick & Ford, which tumbled from 52 to 32

in a single day.



But what can our experts on the stock market

tell us? Was this a minus sign in front of

the number 32?


0 -1 0 0
4976 Glenn Chesnut
Early proposed BB cover Early proposed BB cover 4/20/2008 7:17:00 PM


From: "Dirk Dierking" wsmaugham21@yahoo.com

(wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com)



At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you

can see a picture which I found, showing what

I have been told is an early proposed cover

design for the Big Book.



What can you tell me about who designed

this particular cover, and that person's

story and life?



Also about whoever designed the cover that

ended up being used for the first edition

of the Big Book, and the whole story of how

the first cover was chosen?



Peace,



Dirk


0 -1 0 0
4977 Mitchell K.
Re: Early proposed BB cover Early proposed BB cover 4/20/2008 8:29:00 PM


Responses from Mitchell K., Rick Tomkins, and

Arthur Sheehan



- - - -



From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)



I'm sure there will be lots of responses, but...



The cover was designed by Ray Campbell. Ray was an

early NY member and an artist who lived in Carmel (or

Lake Carmel), NY (Putnam County) and his story AN

ARTIST'S CONCEPT appeared in the First Edition of the

Big Book. Ray also was the person who designed the

so-called "Circus" Dust Jacket which was chosen. The

original cover is located at the archives of the

Stepping Stones Foundation, former home of Bill and

Lois in the Bedford Hills (Westchester County) NY

area. Carmel, NY is not that far from Stepping Stones.



This Ray Campbell is not the same as the artist of the

same name born in 1956 in the UK.



- - - -



From: "ricktompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>

(ricktompkins at comcast.net)



This is the blue "Their Pathway To A Cure"

cover. The same artist designed the yellow,

red, and white cover that was used on all

First Edition dust jackets and one that most

AAs can easily recognize.



The early AAs selected the second and called

it the 'circus' dust cover because of its

bright color arrangement.



And, the illustrator's story "An Artist's

Concept" was printed in First Editions, now

in the AAWS Experience, Strength, and Hope.



Notably, the author made the first reference

to Spencer's "contempt prior to investigation"

quote (misquoted and/or unattributed to

Herbert Spencer) that later was added to the

Big Book's "Spiritual Experience" appendix.



Enjoy the draft that was not selected; perhaps

it was too frighteningly compelling. The

second, selected cover had no images, just

the uncomplicated script lettering. To me,

both were very "art deco."



Rick, Illinois



- - - -



From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com)



Hi Dirk



The brightly colored yellow and red dust

jacket usually associated with the first

edition Big Book is sometimes called the

"circus color" dust jacket. It was designed

by Ray C (Campbel) whose 1st edition Big Book

story is "An Artist's Concept."



Ray also designed an art deco style dust

jacket that was never used. It's the dust

jacket you are inquiring about. I believe a

painting of it is on display at Steppingstones

but I can't verify this as fact.



As an item of AA trivial pursuit, Ray C began

his story with a quotation he attributed to

Herbert Spencer which said: "There is a

principle which is a bar against all informa-

tion, which is proof against all arguments

and which cannot fail to keep a man in ever-

lasting ignorance - that principle is contempt

prior to investigation."



Ray's story was not included in the 2nd edition

Big Book. However, the quotation and attribution

were added to Appendix II "Spiritual Experience"

when the 2nd edition Big Book was published in

1955. It has since been found out that the

quotation should be attributed to an English

clergyman, author and college lecturer by the

name of William Paley who lived from 1743 to

1805.



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



Original message from: "Dirk Dierking"

<wsmaugham21@yahoo.com>

wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com)

>

> At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you

> can see a picture which I found, showing what

> I have been told is an early proposed cover

> design for the Big Book.

>

> What can you tell me about who designed

> this particular cover, and that person's

> story and life?

>

> Also about whoever designed the cover that

> ended up being used for the first edition

> of the Big Book, and the whole story of how

> the first cover was chosen?

>

> Peace,

>

> Dirk


0 -1 0 0
4978 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell Big Book cover and Ray Campbell 4/23/2008 1:53:00 PM


Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell,

who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have

been discussing:



http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm



An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell

New York City

p. 380 in 1st edition



Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938.



He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer:

"There is a principle which is a bar against

all information, which is proof against all

arguments and which can not fail to keep a man

in everlasting ignorance-that principle is

contempt prior to investigation."



He said that the quotation is descriptive of

the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when

the subject of religion, as a cure, is first

brought to their attention. "It is only when

a man has tried everything else, when in utter

desperation and terrific need he turns to

something bigger than himself, that he gets

a glimpse of the way out. It is then that

contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by

fulfillment."



Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual

help rather than "a description of the neurotic

drinking that made the search necessary."



After investigating his alcoholic problem from

every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry,

and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with

religion as a possible way out. He had been

approaching God intellectually. That only

added to his desperation, but a seed had been

planted.



Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson,

who had for five years "devoted a great deal

of time and energy to helping alcoholics."

The man told him little he didn't already know,

"but what he did have to say was bereft of all

fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple

Christianity imparted with Divine Power."



The next day he met over twenty men who "had

achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism."



He liked them because the were ordinary men

who were not pious nor "holier than thous."



He notes that these men were but instruments.

"Of themselves they were nothing."



He must have been an intellectual type. He not

only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men

lead lives of quiet desperation."



It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked

to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition

of the Big Book. He submitted various designs

for consideration including one that was blue

and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was

red, and yellow, with a little black, and a

little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous

were printed across the top in large white

script. It became known as the circus jacket

because of its loud circus colors. The unused

blue jacket is today in the Archives at the

Stepping Stones Foundation.



His story was not included in the Second

Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote

was placed in the back of the book in

Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience."


0 -1 0 0
4979 Chris Budnick
RE: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown 4/20/2008 8:43:00 PM


I visited the collection at Brown University

in May 2007. The ball that is there is from

the 1948 World Series Champion, Cleveland

Indians. I can email pictures I took while

there. I have been through the entire

collection at Brown between my trip in May

2007 and later in September.



Chris



<cbudnick@nc.rr.com>

(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)


0 -1 0 0
4980 jlobdell54
Signed Indians Baseball at Brown Signed Indians Baseball at Brown 4/20/2008 10:35:00 PM


Chris very kindly sent me three views of the

baseball signed by Rollie Hemsley and identi-

fied as a 1948 World Series ball.



The signatures of Joe Dobson (CLE 1939-40

only), Johnny Allen (CLE 1936-40 only), Floyd

Stromme (1939 only), Bruce Campbell (CLE

1935-39 only), and others, identify the ball

as either late 1939 or (much less likely

because Campbell was traded to DET by

Opening Day 1940) very early (Opening

Day) 1940.



In any case, despite the label, it's not

from 1948. Most likely 1939 when Feller was

24-9 with 296 SO and Hemsley batted .263.


0 -1 0 0
4981 greatcir
Re: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown 4/20/2008 11:11:00 PM


In October, 2005 I visited Brown University

and read through a number of boxes related to

Dr. Bob and Clarence Snyder. Very few of the

boxes had been cataloged and a few of them

had plain grocery plastic bags full of loose

correspondence, post cards, Works Publishing

auditor reports, etc.



A box, labled Box 2, had Dr. Bob's wallet with

his Social Security card (1937) in it, a small

pouch of old medical instruments, a folder

on how form a group (1950), and a baseball

related to Helmsley per the box description.



I have a date of 1948 next to the baseball

note in my file but have no recollection of

where this date came from nor do I remember

examining the baseball for any autographs.

I was not permitted to take any photographs.



A box that was labled Box 1 held an old coffee

pot. It was reported to be from Dr' Bob's house

and was refered to as the "Holy Grail" of the

AA materials in the Brown collection in their

description of the collection in 2005.



I do recall the archives person from Brown not

being very excited about my examination of any

of these materials. They were much more relaxed

about me simply reading the text of materials

in the other boxes.



In previous months I had spent time at Stepping

Stones reviewing primarily the last 90 days of

Bill's life. I was hoping to see something

about the waning period of Dr. Bob's days at

Brown but found nothing in the boxes I reviewed.



I did not see all of the "boxes" and it was

hit or miss on which box I would ask to see

the mext day as it took 24 hours to get a box.



There was a lot of correspondence on royalties

(Bill, Bob, Sue Windows, Barry Leach, etc.) as

well as many disrelated text items.



One day at a time,



Pete K.


0 -1 0 0
4982 amielmelnick
AA in Latin America AA in Latin America 4/22/2008 8:40:00 AM


Hello everyone,



I'm doing research on the history of AA in

Latin America (Mexico, Central and South

America) - how the first groups were started,

how they spread, any secessions or diffi-

culties starting groups (I've been reading

what has been posted here about the Mexico

separation).



I wonder if any of you have information about

other parts of the history of AA in Latin

America, or suggestions for good places to

look? I realize this is a bit broader than

the kinds of questions you usually get, but

I'm just a beginner!



Thanks, and all best,



Amiel


0 -1 0 0
4983 giftpurple
Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac 4/22/2008 8:38:00 AM


What is the history behind the book "Easy

Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?



- - - -



From the moderator:



"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s

book about an alcoholic man.



The basic bibliographic information is:



Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the

millions who as yet do not know.

by Hugh Reilly, pseud.

Type: Book; English

Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]

OCLC: 2662794

Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.



There is a review written by Robert E. L.

Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:

The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the

American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,

No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by

the University of Chicago Press)


0 -1 0 0
4984 junebug0619@aol.com
Re: Bill''s story and XYZ-32 on stock ticker Bill''s story and XYZ-32 on stock ticker 4/20/2008 11:01:00 PM


Responses from junebug, John Lee, and Mike Barns



- - - -



From: junebug0619@aol.com

(junebug0619 at aol.com)



If a person is following the action of any one

company, he would have to know the stock symbol

of that company to read its action on the

ticker tape. Let us take as an example the

Coca-Cola Company with the symbol KO. The

tape would show:



KO - the ticker symbol of the company



9M - the amount of shares traded, in this

case M stands for million, as K would stand

for a thousand and B for a billion



@ - at 60.79 - the last bid price in that day

per share of stock and up or down arrow - to

show the direction of change



0.83 - the amount of change



According to the above example in the Big Book,

the stock market was 52 dropping 32 points.



- - - -



From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>

(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)



A stock price can never be below zero. Unlike

partners, stockholders cannot be assessed when

a company has a negative value.

john lee

Pittsburgh



- - - -



From: Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>

(mikeb384 at verizon.net)



I am no expert on the stock market, but stock

prices are not quoted in negative values; they

are removed from the board. A single day drop

from 52 to 32 is calamitous indeed, and could

be considered ruinous for most.



Mike B.



- - - -



Original message from "johnhartie"

<johnhartie@yahoo.com> (johnhartie at yahoo.com)



In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed

the ticker said XYZ-32. Is that a minus sign

before the 32?


0 -1 0 0
4985 James Blair
Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac 4/23/2008 4:21:00 PM


There is a persistent rumour that the book

was written by Bill Wilson in order to raise

monies for the retirement of Dr. Silkworth.



I don't know if a computer analysis of the

writing styles was ever done.



Jim



**************************************



Original Message: 4983

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983

From: "giftpurple" <Jifgift@aol.com>

(Jifgift at aol.com)



What is the history behind the book "Easy

Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?



- - - -



From the moderator:



"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s

book about an alcoholic man.



The basic bibliographic information is:



Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the

millions who as yet do not know.

by Hugh Reilly, pseud.

Type: Book; English

Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]

OCLC: 2662794

Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.



There is a review written by Robert E. L.

Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:

The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the

American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,

No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by

the University of Chicago Press)


0 -1 0 0
4986 Chris Budnick
Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac 4/24/2008 1:15:00 AM


In Dale Mitchell's biography, Silkworth -

The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, Mitchell

suggests that Easy Does It was written by

Silkworth under the pseudonym Hugh Reilly.

I don't have the book in front of me so I

can't reference the pages where he discusses

this. After reading the Silkworth bio, it

prompted me to track down a copy of Easy Does

It.



Chris



**************************************



Original Message: 4983

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983

From: "giftpurple" <Jifgift@aol.com>

(Jifgift at aol.com)



What is the history behind the book "Easy

Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?



- - - -



From the moderator:



"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s

book about an alcoholic man.



The basic bibliographic information is:



Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the

millions who as yet do not know.

by Hugh Reilly, pseud.

Type: Book; English

Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]

OCLC: 2662794

Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.



There is a review written by Robert E. L.

Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:

The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the

American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,

No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by

the University of Chicago Press)


0 -1 0 0
4987 Mark
AA member No. 4 AA member No. 4 4/24/2008 11:03:00 AM


Good Morning/Afternoon all!



Does anyone know who the person is that is

referenced in the BB as the fourth member?



Thanks



- - - -



From the moderator:



I am assuming that you are referring to the

"devil-may-care young fellow" who appears

on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).



The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-

year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young

man with problems [who must be distinguished

from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA

group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of

the truly great AA good old timers.]



Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking

for the rest of his life, nevertheless had

his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the

first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.

Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith

but they were later divorced.


0 -1 0 0
4988 johnhartie
Who edited three of the 1st edition stories? Who edited three of the 1st edition stories? 4/25/2008 2:38:00 PM


In the preface (4th edition, bottom of page xi)

it says that in the second edition,



- - - -



<<"Bill's Story," "Doctor Bob's Nightmare,"

and one other personal history from the first

edition were retained intact;



three were edited and one of these was retitled;



new versions of two stories were written, with

new titles>>



- - - -



My question is, who edited those three stories?


0 -1 0 0
4989 Mitchell K.
Re: AA in Latin America AA in Latin America 4/24/2008 5:32:00 PM


Several years back there was a research

symposium held at Brown University with some

AA members/historians and friends of AA

attending. Since my divorce and move I can't

find anything in my apartment and also due

to the fact that my memory is vanishing I

can't remember the Jesuit sociologist who was

in attendance who had immersed himself in the

AA culture in Mexico for a long-term research

study. Maybe Ernie Kurtz might have the

paperwork from that symposium and thus, the

contact info.



The nice thing about losing my memory is

that I will always be able to discover new

places and meet new people and make new

friends.





--- amielmelnick <amiel@whatfelt.org> wrote:



> Hello everyone,

>

> I'm doing research on the history of AA in

> Latin America (Mexico, Central and South

> America) - how the first groups were started,

> how they spread, any secessions or diffi-

> culties starting groups (I've been reading

> what has been posted here about the Mexico

> separation).

>

> I wonder if any of you have information about

> other parts of the history of AA in Latin

> America, or suggestions for good places to

> look? I realize this is a bit broader than

> the kinds of questions you usually get, but

> I'm just a beginner!

>

> Thanks, and all best,

>

> Amiel

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
4990 Trysh Travis
"the man in the bed" "the man in the bed" 4/27/2008 6:14:00 PM


I have become interested in the various

representations of "the man in the bed," and

am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making

up. I have collected the photos from the

original Jack Alexander article in the

Saturday Evening Post, as well as the

painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html



and the stained glass window at the Akron

Archives



http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html



I am curious to know whether people on this

list know of other visual representations of

the man in the bed that I might add to my

archive. They don't have to be famous like

these are!



Thanks, Trysh Travis


0 -1 0 0
4991 George Ewing
As Bill Sees It: changed quotations As Bill Sees It: changed quotations 4/28/2008 8:56:00 PM


I've perused As Bill Sees Its for years but

only recently noticed that many of the quotes

from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and

Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes,

but paraphrases.



This disturbs me for a number of reasons,

and since I noticed it I've left ASBI on

the shelf.



Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase

the source material, b) whether the "letters"

and Grapevine article snippets are also

paraphrased?



Thanks in advance.



George


0 -1 0 0
4992 Chris Budnick
RE: AA member No. 4 AA member No. 4 4/28/2008 11:28:00 PM


An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred

a few years after their divorce when their

daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking

the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on

June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to

the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty

had a son who committed suicide.



Chris



- - - -



Original message:



Good Morning/Afternoon all!



Does anyone know who the person is that is

referenced in the BB as the fourth member?



Thanks



- - - -



From the moderator:



I am assuming that you are referring to the

"devil-may-care young fellow" who appears

on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).



The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-

year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young

man with problems [who must be distinguished

from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA

group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of

the truly great AA good old timers.]



Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking

for the rest of his life, nevertheless had

his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the

first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.

Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith

but they were later divorced.


0 -1 0 0
4993 Tom Hickcox
Re: "the man in the bed" "the man in the bed" 4/28/2008 11:03:00 PM


I would be interested to know when and how

Bill Dotson's name became associated with

the painting?



It was not intended to represent him when it

was painted in 1955 by Robert M, a volunteer

illustrator for the Grapevine and appeared in

the December issue of that year titled "Came

to Believe." The setting is obviously not

in a hospital. The man on the bed is wearing

trousers and an undershirt. There is a bottle

of booze on the chest of drawers. The head

and foot of the bed are brass, not a hospital

bed. If the book one of the men has is

supposed to be a Big Book, it wasn't published

until almost four years later. One wonders

what book Bill and Dr. Bob would have used.



It is my understanding that the painting was

presented to Bill W by the artist in May of

1956, the following year. It was very popular

and the Grapevine provided reproductions of it.



When the book Came to Believe was published

in 1973, the name of the painting was changed

to The Man on the Bed to avoid confusion.



It appears at some point people started

believing the painting represented Bill Dotson

in Akron City Hospital in 1935. I wonder if

there is any hard evidence when that happened?



Tommy H



- - - -



Original message: Trysh Travis wrote



>I have become interested in the various

>representations of "the man in the bed," and

>am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making

>up. I have collected the photos from the

>original Jack Alexander article in the

>Saturday Evening Post, as well as the

>painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website

>

>http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html

>

>and the stained glass window at the Akron

>Archives

>

>http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html

>

>I am curious to know whether people on this

>list know of other visual representations of

>the man in the bed that I might add to my

>archive. They don't have to be famous like

>these are!


0 -1 0 0
4994 Arthur Sheehan
Re: "the man in the bed" "the man in the bed" 4/28/2008 10:11:00 PM


I don't see anything to add to your answer

Tommy. It's fairly common to hear members say

that the man on the bed represents Bill,

Dr Bob and Bill D.



What I do is to point out that: (1) the man on

the bed is wearing trousers, (2) there is a

carpet under the bed, (3) there is a bottle of

booze on the dresser and (4) the headboard

and footboard of the bed are brass. These

would not be found in a room in Akron City

Hospital in June 1935. Also, the man in the

foreground is holding a book - if the artist

intended it to be the Big Book, then that

wasn't written until 4 years later in 1939.



And then people still go on saying it's Bill,

Dr Bob and Bill D.



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
4995 Jocelyn
Historical list of all ICYPAA conferences Historical list of all ICYPAA conferences 5/2/2008 2:22:00 PM


~~~~Hey there ... Just joined the group.

Found you in my search for a simple list of

all the ICYPAAs, their years, cities and

themes. I'm the chair of the Chicago ICYPAA

bid committee for this year, and would like

to peruse this info. Does anyone have any

idea where I can locate such a list??



Look forward to seeing you in Oklahoma!



Jocelyn Geboy

Chair, Chicago ICYPAA Bid Committee



- - - -



From the moderator: for a general historical

account (although this doesn't give you your

detailed list) you might look at



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaspecialgroups.html



if you haven't already done so.



- - - -



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "dijmo" <dijmo@...> wrote:

>

> The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008

> in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org

>

> We have been working with the program commit-

> tee to get a slot on the program for a panel

> meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely

> title for this panel is "Historical Perspective

> on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that

> hosted ICYPAA over the decades).

>

> We would like to have three prearranged

> panelists, one that was involved in hosting

> an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was

> involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the

> 70's and one from the 80's.

>

> After each of these folks have shared a little

> bit about what it was like and what it meant

> for their sobriety, we will open it up for

> sharing from the floor.

>

> For those of you who may know of Bill D., he

> has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker.

> Bill was involved in organizing the first

> ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second!

> If that's not enough, he first came to AA at

> age 19, in New York and attended meetings with

> Bill W. and many other early AAs.

>

> Lizzie Schrock

> Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee

> lizzieschrock@...

> 530/906/9854

>

> or

>

> Melanie Elliott

> Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee

> melhermann@...

> 323/356/0432

>


0 -1 0 0
4996 Cindy Miller
Re: AA member No. 4 and Dr. Bob''s daughter Sue AA member No. 4 and Dr. Bob''s daughter Sue 4/30/2008 6:39:00 PM


Wonderful, positive note:



Sue married her old sweetheart, Ray Windows

in 1975 -- 38 years after she had originally

met him!



Source: "Children of the Healer" (story of Sue

and Smitty) - highly recommended.



-cm

`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>





On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:28 PM, Chris Budnick wrote:



> An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred

> a few years after their divorce when their

> daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking

> the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on

> June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to

> the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty

> had a son who committed suicide.

>

> Chris

>

> - - - -

>

> Original message:

>

> Good Morning/Afternoon all!

>

> Does anyone know who the person is that is

> referenced in the BB as the fourth member?

>

> Thanks

>

> - - - -

>

> From the moderator:

>

> I am assuming that you are referring to the

> "devil-may-care young fellow" who appears

> on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).

>

> The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-

> year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young

> man with problems [who must be distinguished

> from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA

> group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of

> the truly great AA good old timers.]

>

> Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking

> for the rest of his life, nevertheless had

> his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the

> first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.

> Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith

> but they were later divorced.

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
4997 Chris Budnick
Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac 4/30/2008 1:28:00 AM


Below is the text from the Silkworth biography

by Dale Mitchell (p. 95 - 101) regarding

arguments for Silkworth writing Easy Does It.

As mentioned in the email from Jim, it does

indicate speculation about Bill Wilson having

authored the book. I had forgotten that point

from the Silkworth bio. It's a bit of a long

email.



- - - -



On May 26, 1950, a fictional account of an

alcoholic called Easy Does It: The Story of Mac

was published by P.]. Kenedy and Sons out of

New York City during Silkworth's last full

year at Knickerbocker Hospital. The author

used the pseudonym Hugh Reilly and, according

to the dustcover, "has resorted to a narrative

which but barely disguises his true experience."

Was this author, indeed, William Silkworth?

A number of facts lead to this very conclusion.



Easy Does It describes a treatment facility

and process that mirrors that of Knickerbocker

Hospital during the Silkworth management. It

outlines the program of Alcoholics Anonymous

to a degree of understanding that surpasses

that of most of the active members of the

fellowship. The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics

Anonymous and some of the then-unwritten

Traditions are explained to a level equal to

that of the Big Book. Easy Does It presents

facts, fictional characters that strongly

resemble important people within early M, and

medical descriptions unique to the Silkworth

treatment program. More important, the

alcoholic mind is dissected through the

conversations and thoughts of the main char-

acter, Mac.



Prior to Easy Does It, early AA was presented

in only a few publications, including the Big

Book of Alcoholics Anonymous and a few Bill

Wilson AA Grapevine articles. Some of the

information contained in Easy Does It cannot

be traced to any of these sources. The author

of this book must have lived within the inner

circles of the program and maintained firsthand

knowledge of specific Silkworth treatment

attitudes. Only one man could have known the

details outlined in Easy Does It - William

Silkworth himself.



The characters in the book spoke about the

exact same medical descriptions, analogies, and

quotations Silkworth used over the years in his

writings and speeches.



Silkworth's nurse, Teddy, is one of the fictional

characters in the book. The character matches

Teddy in vivid physical detail and personality.

The personality description even corresponds to

how Teddy described herself in the 1952 article

"I'm a Nurse in an Alcoholic Ward." Silkworth

himself could not have been better described in

physical detail and personality had his own wife

written the book. His glowing white hair, his

deep blue eyes, even the way he dressed are the

attributes of one of the characters.



The author held an uncanny knowledge of

alcoholism, the Silkworth writings, the allergy

theory, and the program specifics of Alcoholics

Anonymous. The book uses many phrases that

were coined by Silkworth and rarely used by

others. The book, which was well received,

focuses more on the physical and medical

presentation of alcoholism than the spiritual

requirements of recovery, yet the spiritual

components of recovery are also plainly

detailed. Although Silkworth's conversion

beliefs are left for secondary conversations

between the two main characters, conversion

indeed occurs in every case of recovery

presented. In accordance with the Silkworth

legacy, it is obvious the book lays the ground

for a firm base of medical understanding. A

presentation of Higher Power and references to

God are well placed within the book after the

medical descriptions. Had the book been written

with a purely AA focus, this might not have

occurred.



The only reasonable argument against Silkworth

authoring the book is that he was an extremely

private and humble man. It is said that

Silkworth would never write a book about

himself that contained such glowing praise for

his work. Silkworth always maintained his

distance from fame despite the important role he

played in the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Why would he suddenly step out of character

and write a book acknowledging the intelligence

and knowledge of alcoholic treatment by a doctor

who was obviously himself?



We do know that he did nonetheless step out of

character and pen a glowing recommendation of

himself. The foreword to Easy Does It was

written and signed by 'William Duncan

Silkworth, Physician-in-Charge of the AA Wing,

Knickerbocker Hospital, New York." In this

short introduction, Silkworth writes, "The author

has long been a close student of the alcoholic

problem. He certainly does not write as an

amateur."



The story describes one of the main characters,

Dr. Goodrich, as "a man of exceptional mental

and spiritual nature." If it can only be accepted

that the Dr. Goodrich character is indeed Dr.

Silkworth, then it must be accepted that Silk-

worth was still writing a foreword to a book

that praised his own work.



In his closing statement of the foreword

Silkworth states, "It deals with a complex

subject, discussed from many angles, often

challenging, always vigorous and original." At

the time, Silkworth was widely respected as an

expert on alcoholism and for his Towns and

Knickerbocker treatment models for programs

and facilities all over the world. This

foreword was no small recommendation.

Silkworth endorsed only three books in his

writing over his many years: Alcoholics Anon-

ymous, The Varieties of Religious Experience,

and Easy Does It. This places Easy Does It

quite high on the suggested reading list from

a man generally married to science and Alco-

holics Anonymous.



The only other reasonable argument against

Silkworth as the author is that Bill Wilson was

the author. Next to Silkworth, no one else had

the experience at Towns and Knickerbocker

Hospitals aside from Bill Wilson. No one could

have more precisely described Alcoholics

Anonymous. No one could have understood the

medical facts presented in the book regarding

the allergy theory, and certainly, no one knew

the true story of Bill's spiritual awakening.



How then do we challenge this theory? First,

Bill was known to be gregarious and very

public. He wrote many articles and was

involved in the writing of two books about his

life and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Not once did he shy from public praise, quite

the contrary. Why would Bill Wilson suddenly

decide to write a book on Alcoholics Anony-

mous and the life of Dr. Silkworth in an

anonymous fashion?



Second, Wilson regretted not properly thanking

Silkworth more directly, and more frequently,

long after Silkworth had died. He would not

have made these comments had he actually

written a book that did indeed provide such

praise for Silkworth.



When first informed about the possibility that

Silkworth authored Easy Does It by a resource-

ful woman named Susan in New Jersey, I set

out to prove her wrong. My very first phone

call made me begin to question my preconcep-

tions.



When I called Adelaide Silkworth, the wife of

Silkworth's nephew William Silkworth, the first

time, we spoke briefly about the project and my

desire to find out all I could about the doctor.

Her first response was "Are you going to tell

them about Easy Does It?"



The family has long believed Silkworth to be the

author of Easy Does It - a rumor that does not

start haphazardly in a family history. Adelaide

matter-of-factly talked about how she and her

husband have always known and talked openly

about Dr. Silkworth being the true author, as

though she thought everyone already knew it to

be true. If Dr. Silkworth had lived three or four

generations earlier, the current family beliefs

might be difficult to accept as truth. The fact

that he lived at the same time and spent much

time with his namesake only strengthens the

family history.



A secondary source of proof is found in the

book review section of the New York Times in

1950. The prerelease book review for Easy

Does It names Dr. Silkworth as the author.

Minot C. Morgan wrote of this review in the

December 8, 1950, Princeton Alumni Weekly,

where he discussed Easy Does It and the author.



Members of this class may not be aware that

one of our classmates is an author named Hugh

Reilly, but the following book review in the

New York Times reveals his identity to be none

other than Dr. Bill Silkworth, who is still

devoting his energies and his professional skill

in a fine and much-needed humanitarian service:



"A fictionalized biography of an 'arrested alco-

holic' by an author who writes under the

pseudonym of Hugh Reilly will be published

on May 26 by P.J Kenedy. 'Easy Does It: The

Story of Mac' presents the life of a 'stew-bum,'



and the how and why of drinking and how the

alcoholic returned to normal life. Dr. William

Duncan Silkworth, Physician-in-charge of the

Alcoholics Anonymous Wing in Knickerbocker

Hospital, says in his foreword: The author

very properly integrates the moral therapy and

psychology of Alcoholics Anonymous as an

essential element in restoring the integrity of

the alcoholic."



Also the following excerpt from an obituary

of Dr. Silkworth was found as a third source:



A few months before his death his book, "Easy

Does It: The Story of Mac," was published by

P.J. Kenedy, the fictionalized biography of an

arrested alcoholic, telling the how and why of

drinking and explaining the means of recovery,

emphasizing the moral therapy and psychology

of Alcoholics Anonymous as an essential

element in restoring the integrity of the alco-

holic. In the publication of the book Billy

concealed his identity under the pseudonym of

Hugh Reilly, only the foreword being credited

to Dr.William Duncan Silkworth.



The New York Times had a resource at its finger-

tips since lost in the annals of AA history

- an original book review. Silkworth's New York

Times obituary was matter-of-fact about the

authorship of Easy Does It. Certainly, had

there been a man named Hugh Reilly, of whom

we have been unable to, find any record exists,

he would have come forward for his rightful

ownership of the book. In fact, the book itself

admits the name is a pseudonym.



The dedication page of Easy Does It can be

viewed as a path to the author's identity.

Certainly thousands may have the same initials

as those listed on the following dedication

page. Yet if we begin with those who had a

positive influence on Dr. Silkworth, we can

quickly find names that correspond with the

initials.



TO T. F. M.



WITH GRATITUDE FOR ALL THE THINGS



THAT WENT INTO HIS BEING



"THE FIRST TO UNDERSTAND"



AND TO



C.E.T



WHICH MIGHT ALSO STAND FOR

CHRIST EXEMPLIFIED FOR OUR

TIMES



Only one man in Silkworth's life distinguished

as "the first to understand" has the initials

T. F. M. And many referred to Thomas Francis

Marshall as the first to understand. He was

among the first to publicly preach a required

"conversion experience" for alcoholic recovery.

Long before William James and Joel Steele,

Marshall beckoned spiritual conversion as a

solution to alcoholism. One of the most ardent

supporters of conversion was William

Silkworth. Colonel Edward Towns (C.E.T.)

was known as a very compassionate and

Christian man. Towns and Silkworth became

very good friends through the work at Towns

Hospital. Many who knew Towns referred to

his strong Christian values, and one in parti-

cular, the Reverend Harry Emerson Fosdick,

called him "an example of Christianity."



The introduction to Easy Does It was written

with authority. Not with the authority of one

man's understanding of one alcoholic, but with

one man's experience of many alcoholics.

Again, the author praises several founding

members and supporters of Alcoholics

Anonymous, including "a great man named



Bill." The introduction reveals the identity of

'The Padre," one of the main characters of the

book, as a composite portrait "not unlike the

four immortal chaplains commemorated on a

three cent stamp issued by the United States

Government." The men, Reverend Samuel

Shoemaker, Father Ed Dowling, Reverend

Harry Emerson Fosdick, and Reverend Frank

Buchman, were all founding spiritual supporters

of Alcoholics Anonymous and well known to

Silkworth.



In his "introduction," the author attempts mainly

to offer Alcoholics Anonymous as "the only

program that takes cognizance of this whole

man in the treatment of the alcoholic and

motivates him in a way of life by which he

remains sober." Sound familiar? He also,

however, sheds light on his true identity. First,

the generic language itself is obviously a

barometer of Silkworth's prior writings. Almost

word for word, in the introduction and in the

story told in the book, we find Silkworth's

theoretical influence. Either the author knew the

content and sum of all Silkworth's writings and

speeches, or the author was Silkworth. Phrases

like "case history" were used to describe the

book's story. These are not words of a non-

medical man.



The closing paragraph may offer the most

poignant sentence in the entire book:



I want here to express my fervent appreciation

of the inestimable assistance which I received

consciously from the spoken and written

statements of the eminent doctor whose name

and words give luster to this book in the

Foreword. . . .Upon review of these facts, there

is truly only one option to consider: Dr.

Silkworth was the author of Easy Does It.

And through this fictional story, he offers the

world a glimpse of his private thoughts as

one of the founding fathers of AA.


0 -1 0 0
4998 tsirish1
Live Easy But Think First Live Easy But Think First 5/3/2008 4:53:00 PM


Does anyone KNOW the origin of this practice?

Year? Group? Where I can find where the origin

is WRITTEN DOWN? Thanks.


0 -1 0 0
4999 Michael F. Margetis
Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? 5/4/2008 5:07:00 PM


Hi,



I know a lot about Rollie's baseball career

and his anonymity break, and that he wound up

running a real estate office in Langley Park

Maryland (where I got sober)up until his death

and is buried nearby, but I don't know much

about his sobriety.



A couple of people I've talked to seem to

think he drank again, but I've never seen or

heard that from any authoritative source.

What can anyone tell me about that?



Thanks,

Mike M.


0 -1 0 0
5000 Andy
ICYPAA History ICYPAA History 5/5/2008 12:18:00 PM


Young People's Groups in Alcoholics Anonymous

began appearing around 1945 in Los Angeles,

Cleveland, and Philadelphia, and now they can

be found all across North America. In 1958, a

meeting of young AA's from across the U.S. and

Canada started what is now the International

Conference of Young People in Alcoholics Anon-

ymous (ICYPAA), and it has met on an annual

basis ever since. At the 1960 AA Convention,

Bill W. noted that the age of new members was

much lower than when he and Dr. Bob founded

AA 25 years earlier. In a letter to ICYPAA

dated June 15, 1969, Bill wrote "... in recent

years I have found nothing for greater inspira-

tion than the knowledge that A.A. of tomorrow

will be safe, and certainly magnificent, in

the keeping of you who are the younger genera-

tion of A.A. today."



ICYPAA was founded for the purpose of pro-

viding a setting for an annual celebration

of sobriety among young people in AA. Since

its inception, a growing group of people, who

at first would not consider themselves as

"young people," has become regular attendees.

The number of young people suffering from

alcoholism who turn to AA for help is growing,

and ICYPAA helps to carry AA's message of

recovery to alcoholics of all ages. This

meeting provides an opportunity for young AA's

from all over the world to come together and

share their experience, strength, and hope as

members of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA members

who attend an ICYPAA return home better pre-

pared to receive young people who come to AA

looking for a better way of life.



ICYPAA provides visible evidence that large

numbers of young people are achieving a

lasting and comfortable sobriety in Alco-

holics Anonymous. The three legacies of

AA -- Recovery, Unity, and Service -- are

the backbone of ICYPAA, just as they are

throughout AA. ICYPAA has a long history as

an established AA conference. It regularly

contributes to the AA General Service Office,

as well as to the Area Service Structure in

the local areas where it is held. ICYPAA and

its attendees are also committed to reaching

out to the newcomer, and to involvement in

every other facet of AA service.  ICYPAA

participants can often be found serving at

the national, state, area, and group levels.

Newcomers are shown, by people their own age,

that using AA principles in their daily lives

and getting involved in AA service can have a

significant impact on a lasting and comfort-

able sobriety.



The 2008 ICYPAA will be held July 3-6 in

Oklahoma City, OK



Los Angeles, CA 2007 "Solid as Gibralter"



New Orleans, LA 2006 "Raise the Bottom"

postponed due to Katrina 2005



Orlando, Fl 2004 "we Stopped in Time"



Portland, OR 2003 "No-Middle-Of-The-Road

Solution"



Louisville, KY 2002 "A Design for Living"



Detroit, MI 2001 "Rebellion may be Fatal..."



Albuquerque, NM 2000 "Miracles Among Us"



Houston, TX 1999 "An Experience You Must

not Miss"



Washington, DC 1998 "The keys of the Kingdom"



Estes Park, CO 1997 "The High Road to a New

Freedom"



Anaheim, CA 1996 "We Absolutely Insist On

Enjoying Life"



Honolulu, HI 1995 "Willing to go to any

lengths"



Atlanta, GA 1994 "Together we fly"



New York, NY 1993 "Beyond your wildest

dreams"



Cleveland, OH 1992 "Back to Basics"



San Francisco, CA 1991 "There is a Solution"



Montreal, PQ 1990 "Heart to Heart around

the World"



Salt Lake City, UT 1989 "Carry the Message"



Nashville, TN 1988 "I am Responsible"



Boston, MA 1987 "A Magnificent Reality'"



Miami, FL 1986 "Sunlight of the Spirit"



Denver, CO 1985 "A Magnificant Reality"



Chicago, IL 1984



Cincinnati, OH 1983



New York, NY 1982



Minneapolis, MN 1981



Tucson, AZ 1980 "Sweet Surrender"



Vancouver, BC 1979 "Celebrate Sobriety"



Atlanta, GA 1978



Houston, TX 1977



Philadelpia, PA 1976 "The Spirit of 76"



Memphis, TN 1975



Indianapolis, IN 1974 "We've only just begun"



San Francisco, CA 1973



Cleveland, OH 1972



Reno, NV 1971



Fort Worth, TX 1970



Philadelphia, PA 1969



Toronto, Ont. 1968



Denver, CO 1967



St. Louis, MO 1966



Long Beach, CA 1965



Detroit, MI 1964



Columbia, SC. 1963



Hamilton, Ont. 1962



Milwaukee, WI 1961



Philadelphia, PA 1960



Chicago, IL 1959



Niagra Falls, 1958


0 -1 0 0
5001 Steve Stevenson
Re: Live Easy But Think First Live Easy But Think First 5/4/2008 4:27:00 PM


If you arrange the slogans in a particular

order and use the first word of each they will

spell out:



LIVE and let live,



EASY does it,



BUT for the grace of God,



THINK think think,



FIRST things first.



- - - -



Also from: MarionORedstone@aol.com

(MarionORedstone at aol.com)


0 -1 0 0
5002 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? 5/5/2008 10:40:00 AM


According to Bob Feller (who attended

Hemsley's funeral) and Hemsley's relatives

including Daughter, Granddaughter, and many

other relatives, Rollie never drank again.



In his recorded talk in 1968 he was still

using the sobriety date of April l6, 1939.



Some have written about Hemsley drinking again,

including Susan Cheever in her book on Bill W.

She gives the source of her information as

PASS IT ON, which does not in fact contain

any information to support the claim.


0 -1 0 0
5003 jlobdell54
Editors of the Second Edition Editors of the Second Edition 5/7/2008 10:50:00 AM


The chief editor for the second edition was

Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a

nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century

painter of Western scenes.



Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose

husband was, I think, an original Batman (or

was it Superman?) comic artist,



Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later

have been active in founding NA),



Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of

the Grapevine - I don't know),



and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah.



Which one of them edited the three first-

edition stories I can't say, though it might

be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story)

may have edited his own, as he died after the

Second Edition was published.



Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't.


0 -1 0 0
5004 Mike
A Rollie Hemsley Story A Rollie Hemsley Story 5/6/2008 8:15:00 AM


This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today.

The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's

anonymity break affected his professional

career, even many years later.



Mike



http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbus_bb_1950.\

ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101



0 -1 0 0
5005 Tom Hickcox
Re: As Bill Sees It: changed quotations As Bill Sees It: changed quotations 5/7/2008 6:52:00 PM


At 19:56 4/28/2008, George Ewing wrote:



>I've perused As Bill Sees It for years but

>only recently noticed that many of the quotes

>from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and

>Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes,

>but paraphrases.

>

>This disturbs me for a number of reasons,

>and since I noticed it I've left ABSI on

>the shelf.



It isn't as if they were trying to sneak

something by us as Bill W stated in the

Foreword to "As Bill Sees It" on p. iv,

"Because the quotations used were lifted out

of their original context, it has been

necessary in the interest of clarity to edit,

and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them."



>Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase

>the source material, b) whether the "letters"

>and Grapevine article snippets are also

>paraphrased?



Since the mention of editing was done by Bill,

I assume he either did it or leant his approval

to what was done.

____________________



That said, I have asked before on this forum

why the word transcendence was substituted for

victory in the Third Step Prayer on p. 210 and

have yet to receive an answer. Its use does

not seem to meet the criteria Bill listed.



Big Book Third Step Prayer p. 63:

"Take away my difficulties, that

victory over them may bear witness to

those I would help of Thy Power, Thy

Love, and Thy Way of Life."



As Bill Sees It Third Step Prayer p. 210:

"Take away my difficulties, that

my transcendence over them may bear witness to

those I would help of Thy Power, Thy

Love, and Thy Way of Life."

____________________



I would note that many things change over the

years. The Serenity Prayer we use is different

from the way Niebuhr wrote it, according to

his daughter. Scholars tell us the Christian

Bible has been changed thru the ages, but since

we have no original drafts, we have to depend

on textual analysis for attempts at what was

originally written.



The Foreword to the Fourth Edition of the Big

Book was changed almost as soon as it was

published, and I know of at least one local

Big Book Study that deems the First Printing

to be inappropriate for study. Go figure.

____________________



Off the top of my head, I am aware of only

about a half dozen places in "As Bill Sees It"

where editing has taken place, usually taking

sentences out to make the selection shorter.

There is no indication in the A.A.W.L./A.B.S.I.

where this has been done, but that is certainly

not unusual.



I use the book in my daily routine and usually

think of the changes only when I get to p. 210.

Your experience obviously has been different.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



- - - -



From Laurie A. <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Re George Ewing's query about who was to blame

for paraphrasing AA literature in "As Bill Sees

It". There's no mystery - Bill himself was

responsible! See his foreword: "Because the

quotations used were lifted out of their

original context, it has been necessary in the

interest of clarity to edit, and sometimes to

rewrite, a number of them..."


0 -1 0 0
5006 Chris Budnick
RE: Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. 5/8/2008 1:20:00 AM


A "Betty Thom" was involved with the HFD

(Habit Forming Drugs) groups in California and

had correspondence with Bill W. around 1954.

I've never come across any indication that

she was involved with the founding of

Narcotics Anonymous in 1953. One reference

I saw indicated that she did a lot of writing

and that HFD meetings were often held in

conjunction with AA meetings.



Here is the quote from a talk given by a

gentleman named Scott A. in 1991:



"Unrelated to that, in 1950, we also know that

there were Habit Forming Drug groups taking

place in Los Angeles, California, usually in

conjunction with AA meetings. They were also

held in homes. The principal person behind

them was a lady named Betty Thom. She did a

lot of writing. A member of our region used

to live up in Vista before he died. Last year

a friend of mine and I were allowed to go

through some of his books and papers, and he

had inches of writing from this HFD group.

They had a 12 Step guide. They had a bunch of

various articles that were type-written out on

pages like maybe a magazine article before it

got published or something. They were very

committed that the 12 Steps could work for

recovery from addiction."





Does anyone have additional information on her

or the accuracy of the above statement?



Chris



- - - -



From: jlobdell54

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008

Subject: Editors of the Second Edition



The chief editor for the second edition was

Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a

nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century

painter of Western scenes.



Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose

husband was, I think, an original Batman (or

was it Superman?) comic artist,



Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later

have been active in founding NA),



Tom (whether P. - of the 12&12 - or Y. - of

the Grapevine - I don't know),



and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah.



Which one of them edited the three first-

edition stories I can't say, though it might

be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story)

may have edited his own, as he died after the

Second Edition was published.



Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't.


0 -1 0 0
5007 Rotax Steve
Transcription of Henrietta Seiberling''s remarks? Transcription of Henrietta Seiberling''s remarks? 5/9/2008 12:43:00 PM


I just recently heard from a speaker

(Keith L.) that in the mid 1970's, Henrietta

Seiberling was asked to be a speaker and she

was ill and could not do it. Her son spent

some time with her asking a lot of questions

which he recorded to take to the event. His

recording was said to have been transcribed.

Do any of you know of this and more

importantly do any of you have a copy of

the transcription? Was the recording ever

kept and copied, or did this even happen?



LOL, on a more humorous note, I just spell-

checked the above and the only correction

suggestion for Seiberling was "Sobering."



Thanks

~ Rotax Steve


0 -1 0 0
5008 Mark
Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story A Rollie Hemsley Story 5/8/2008 5:29:00 PM


Hey Mike,



Thanks for the article, but I have a bit of a

nit to pick. The words in the article were...

"Hemsley was a recovering alcoholic, and

management feared he started drinking again

and that fueled some of his unorthodox

decisions," and that does not talk about any

anonymity break, or any possible membership

in any specific recovery organization which

might be concerned about anonymity breaks.



Thanks again for pointing us to this article.



Mark E.

Lebanon, Ohio


0 -1 0 0
5009 Michael F. Margetis
Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story A Rollie Hemsley Story 5/8/2008 7:50:00 AM


It still only says management "feared" he

may have been drinking again ... still no

definitive answer. My hope is that he didn't

drink again. I just want to know (as much as

one can at this point) before I correct

someone who says he drank after his original

sobriety date.



I've had two people, who normally are sure of

their facts, say that he drank again. I told

them I thought he did NOT drink again, as far

as I knew, and they seemed surprised.



Neither could say where they read that and as

far as I can see from what I've read, (Dr. Bob

and the Good Oldtimers, Pass it On, Not God)

I can't find anything that says he did.



Thanks,

-Mike M.





In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <tuswecaoyate@...> wrote:

>

> This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today.

> The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's

> anonymity break affected his professional

> career, even many years later.

>

> Mike

>

>

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbu

s_bb_1950.ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101

>


0 -1 0 0
5010 Shakey1aa@aol.com
What determines the date AA is founded in a city? What determines the date AA is founded in a city? 5/7/2008 6:59:00 PM


As an alcoholic my sobriety date is the date I

started my journey towards continuous sobriety.

If I drink, my date is recalculated from the

date of the last drink. Many cities, however,

consider the date that AA came to the city

as the date of their 1st meeting.



In Philadelphia, it would be Feb. 28,1940.

AA started that day and has continued

uninterrupted to date.



Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was

December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A.

Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us

now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles.

He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth

Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone

number and address where she lived and had

meetings. He went over and asked "Where's

the meeting?" "There are no meetings any

more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going

to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the

members of A. A," he asked. "They are all

drunk," she said bitterly.



Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard.

She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be

the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on

Main street. Through the good offices of Dr.

Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the

mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first

public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at

8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA

have continued uninterrupted since that date.



Is the date of a city'd continuous meetings

considered the date A. A. was founded there,

or is it the date of the 1st meeting which

never continued or "slipped"?



Many cities use the 1st meeting date as

bragging rights but sobriety is considered

as continuous.



I hope that some of you can help clarify this

matter.



See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept.

Natl .Archives workshop

Shakey Mike Gwirtz


0 -1 0 0
5011 jlobdell54
Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling 5/13/2008 9:07:00 PM


A transcription of her talk is at



http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/billwilsonmeetingsieberling.htm



- - - -



A reference to this source was also

sent in by <elg3_79@yahoo.com>

(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)



- - - -



From: "Maria Hoffman" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>

(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)



A transcript is also posted on Barefoots World:



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaorighenriettas.html



- - - -



From: "rajiv.behappy" <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>

(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)



A transcript is given in the Fall 1985, Employee

Assistance Quarterly ISSN: 0749-0003



A part of the tape recording of the conversation

was played by her son John F. S. at the 1971

Founders Day meeting in Akron.



Much love from India,



Rajiv Bhole



- - - -



From: Jocelyn <prpllady51@yahoo.com>

(prpllady51 at yahoo.com)



I recently heard this recording again at the

Seiberling Estate (Stan Hywet Hall) at the

Gate House. They have copies available for

purchase at the gift shop. I don't know if a

transcription is available. You may want to

check with the curators/management.



Here is a link to the gift shop, and as you

can see you can order the CD for a cost of

$10.00. I highly recommend a personal trip.

Beside the AA history there,the estate is

alive with all sort of activities as well as

an amazing botanical garden.



http://www.stanhywet.org/product/item-13875999-7198-4fe2-85fc-93cb4507e4d6.aspx



Regards,



Jocelyn



- - - -



This was also sent in by:

"Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>

Jerry Riley <jerrytwotord@hotmail.com>


0 -1 0 0
5012 Sober186@aol.com
Re: Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. 5/13/2008 8:41:00 PM


It might have been Superman, which was created

by Jerome Siegel (who wrote the story lines)

and Joe Shuster (who was the original artist).

Both were from the Cleveland area. Siegel

created the character as we know it in 1934.

The comic was first published in Action Comics

in the late 1930s.



Jim in Columbus



- - - -



In a message dated 5/12/2008

cbudnick@nc.rr.com writes:



Subject: Editors of the Second Edition



...Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose

husband was, I think, an original Batman (or

was it Superman?) comic artist,...


0 -1 0 0
5013 Bill Lash
Upcoming Events (June 2008) Upcoming Events (June 2008) 5/14/2008 10:30:00 AM


Annual Bill Wilson Day

Celebrating the 73rd Anniv. of the founding of AA

June 1, 2008

at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson was born)

378 Village Street

East Dorset, VT 05253

For more info call 802/362/5524

**********

The AA Traditions & History Group along with

the Alcoholics in Action Group invite you to

an afternoon with Renowned AA Historian &

Archivist Jay S. from Redondo Beach CA

Come & hear Jay's inspiring & informative

talks on the Akron miracle, The Oxford Group

& our early AA roots.

Free Door Prize!

Saturday, June 7, 2008, 2:00 - 5:00PM

St. Joseph's School Cafeteria

44th Street & 30th Avenue (enter at 44th Street)

Astoria (Queens), NY 11103

For more info call 718/701/5801

**********

Come Celebrate Founders' Day

73rd Anniversary of AA

June 6 - 8, 2008

in Akron OH, Birthplace of AA

For more info go to http://www.akronaa.org/

& click on "Founders' Day"

**********

56th Annual Stepping Stones Picnic

June 7, 2008 - 12noon to 5:00PM (rain or shine)

At the historic home of Bill & Lois Wilson

62 Oak Road

Katonah (Bedford Hills), NY 10536

914/232/4822

Open Speaker Meeting starts at 2:00PM with

Greg M. from New York - General Manager

of GSO (AA)

Ric B. from Virginia (Al-Anon)

Mercedes V. from Mexico (Alateen)

For more info go to www.steppingstones.org

**********

The “Hightstown Early Birds” Group presents

An AA History Presentation with 250 Pictures of

Early AA with Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ

Saturday, June 14, 2008

9:00AM – 11:45AM

First Presbyterian Church

320 North Main Street

Hightstown, NJ 08520

Pictures of the Washingtonians, Frank Buchman,

Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves, Ebby T., Bill &

Lois W., Bill W.'s parents & grandparents,

Lois W.'s parents, Dr. Bob & family, all the

Ohio and Vermont places, Henrietta Seiberling,

Bill D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sister Ignatia,

all the New York and New Jersey places, Charlie

Towns & Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early

literature was published, the Rockefeller

dinner, gravesites, etc.

It's very exciting, combining the stories with

the images.

For more information please call Barefoot Bill

at 201/232/8749 (cell).

**********

Multi-District History & Archives Gathering

Registration opens at 8 a.m. on Saturday

June 21, 2008 at the St. Cecilia's Social Hall

750 State Drive

Lebanon PA 17042

Suggested topics for panels are:

**The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H., Shep C.,

Cebra G.)

**AA and Baseball

**AA and Films/Theatre

**Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region

**AA Pioneers

**A Panel on Coming into AA in the Eastern

Pennsylvania Area in October 1970

(three old friends who have known each

other in sobriety for more than 35 years).

The Gathering is FREE with morning refreshments

and lunch provided.

End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m.

Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net


0 -1 0 0
5014 Bill Lash
RE: Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling 5/14/2008 2:14:00 PM


This Henrietta transcript is already on AA

History Lovers from when Nancy was still

facilitating.



Message 138



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/138


0 -1 0 0
5015 Hal
26 Big Book Prayers 26 Big Book Prayers 5/13/2008 8:18:00 PM


I am on the hunt for a list of what I have

been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can

anyone help point me in the right direction?



THANKS!


0 -1 0 0
5016 Chris Budnick
Filmmakers seek memorabilia on Cornwall Press for A.A. film Filmmakers seek memorabilia on Cornwall Press for A.A. film 5/14/2008 12:49:00 AM


The first printing of the Big Book was printed

by Cornwall Press in 1939. Some NYC filmmakers

are seeking memorabilia about this press for

a film they are making on the history of A.A.

______________________________



I came across the following story:



"NYC filmmakers seek memorabilia on

Cornwall Press era for A.A. film"



By Michael Randall



Times Herald-Record



May 12, 2008



CORNWALL - Check your attic, your basement

and your storage space. You might be able to

help make a movie.



Some New York City-based documentary film-

makers are working on a movie that will tell

the story of Alcoholics Anonymous.



The story has a local angle: The first edition

of "Alcoholics Anonymous," the fellowship

group's basic textbook (also commonly known

as "The Big Book") was printed by the Cornwall

Press in 1939.



But the business is long gone, and director

Kevin Hanlon and co-producer Dahlia Kozlowsky

say they've run into dead ends trying to

locate films, photographs or any other kind

of visual memorabilia of the Cornwall Press,

particularly from the '30s or '40s that would

evoke the era when the book was published.



So they're appealing to the public for help.

They figure somebody who used to work at the

Cornwall Press, or perhaps their sons and

daughters, might have some old movies or

photos from that era stored away somewhere.



A.A. grew out of a meeting in Akron, Ohio,

between a New York stockbroker, Bill W., and

an Akron surgeon, Dr. Bob S.



The beginnings of A.A. were detailed in a

1989 TV movie, "My Name is Bill W.," starring

James Woods and James Garner, but this will

be the first feature-length documentary on

the subject, Hanlon said.



"I was shocked nobody ever made a documentary

(about this) before," he said.



Hanlon said he was inspired to do the film

because he's known a number of alcoholics who

got sober through A.A. and its 12-step program.



The filmmakers haven't shot any local footage

yet, but they say that could happen later.

They don't know when it will be released;

they're still sorting through what Kozlowsky

describes as enough material "to make a 10-week

series on PBS, but that's probably not" where

it will end up playing.



mrandall@th-record.com



Anyone with film, photographs or other

memorabilia of the Cornwall Press in the

1930s/1940s can call Kozlowsky at 212/229/1358

or e-mail her at



Dkozlowsky@gmail.com

(Dkozlowsky at gmail.com)


0 -1 0 0
5017 charles Knapp
The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles 5/14/2008 2:44:00 AM


Hello Group,



I don’t know if I can answer the question

how to determine when AA officially comes to

a city, but I might be able to shed some light

on early AA in Southern California. How and

when AA came to Los Angeles is not as heated

a topic today as it used to be. It is my

understanding this topic actually divided some

of the early members here. According to

Kaye Miller the first AA meeting was held in

her home December 19, 1939. She was a

nonalcoholic who offered her home for that

meeting.



In a letter to Bill W., dated February 8

1947, she wrote about her recollection of

early AA in LA. In this letter she states

that her meeting moved to Glendale after a

couple weeks and rotated back and forth.

She also stated Mort J., attended her meeting

and didn’t come to LA until April 1940. In a

February 1952 Grapevine article it also cast

a shadow on the starting date for Mort’s

Cecil Hotel meeting and goes along the same

lines of Kaye’s recollections. ( Don't have a

copy of that article handy)



I do not have the whole story, but what I

have pieced together so far as to who founded

AA in Los Angeles came to a head in March 1951.

Bill came out to the West Coast to help members

elect a delegate to the first General Service

Conference. During the Saturday night meeting

the story of how AA got started in LA was

told and apparently made it look like Mort

was the sole founder of AA in Los Angeles.

The story did not settle well with some of

the early AAs and this started a heated letter

writing campaign to set the record straight.

Letters were sent to members, groups and central

offices with a copy of Kaye’s 1947 letter trying

to show what they believed to be an accurate

account of how AA got started in LA, but it

didn’t do much good.



The little blue booklet "How A. A. Came to

Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us now)" was

printed in the early 1980’s by the Southern

California Archives Committee. When it first

came out there were jokes that they had to wait

until some long timers died before they dared

published their version. From what I know now

I am not surprised if there was some truth in

those jokes.



Even AA Comes of Age (page 91) has a version

similar to the blue booklet. Kaye Miller had

gotten an advanced cope of AA Comes of Age and

was very irritated with Bill’s version of

events. While doing research a couple years

age at the GSO Archives in New York I saw at

least 2 letters from Kaye to Bill pleading

with him to revise his version before it was

published. He did make a couple of changes but

nothing like Kaye wanted. In one of Kaye’s

letters she even hinted some of the blame

falls with Mort for not setting the record

straight back in 1951 when he had a chance.



The 1947 letter might generate more questions

than answers, but I feel it shows Kaye's

meeting was going strong when Mort started

his meeting despite what the booklet says.

I plan on doing some research in the LA Central

Office Archives in June on other topics but

maybe I can find out some additional informa-

tion on this subject at that time.



I have included the redacted text of the 1947

letter for you to enjoy.



Hope this helps



Charles from California



******************************************



February 8, 1947



To: Messrs: Bill W., Luis A., Barney H.,

Clarence O’B., Ham B., Fred H., Frank S.,

Pete C., Johnny Howe, Hal S., Dee G., Mort J.,

Cliff W., “Doc” H., Al M., Editor, The Eye

Opener



This is just one of those rambling "remem-

bering when" things. If most of you think I'm

off my rocker for writing this, that's O.K.,

because where else but in A.A. could I do odd

things without fear of finger pointing? It's

a "first among you cast the first stone" deal,

isn't it?



Third time's the charm. I first heard about

A.A. though Andy in 1937 -- remember, Bill?

It wasn’t AA then -- The Book hadn't been

published yet. But I was sure Ty wouldn't go

for it. Smart guy I was -- I didn't even tell

him, just because God was involved. Then we

telephoned you in 1938, Bill -- but Ty wasn't

"ready". Then in April 1939 came to us in

West Los Angeles a mimeographed copy of the

Book. Did you keep that hysterical and

(I fear) dramatic telegram I sent - and the

follow-up? I shall never forget the utter

despair that filled me at your reply: "There

is a group in Akron, Ohio". Ohio! where Ty was

facing commitment for life if I returned him

and left him. Well- that ended right--with Ty

in A.A. But I remember that though I couldn't

believe you were alcoholics--you and Bob and

Hank and Marty, I still said that when I

returned to L.A. that I'd be glad to tell

anyone who was as desperate as I had been

that I'd seen 100 of you who said you'd been

alcoholics and that I knew you were decent

members of society now. But I got on an A.A.

jag on the boat coming back to L.A. Remember

Pat C. and how he got sober on the advance

sheets of the Book--his story "Lone Endeavor"

was in the first edition. I looked him up as

you asked me to Bill. I know he slipped and

went Fast--but at long last he is again trying

A.A. He may make it this time. You sent me

contacts, Bill, but there wasn't enough of

them, so I asked Alma Whitaker of the Times

to help--and she did.



From June 1939 to late November and nothing

definite accomplished--then our great and

wonderful break! On December 1st, 1939 was

sent to Johnny Howe, who was then Psychopathic

Probation Officer of A.A. county. He devoured

the Book and turned over to help A.A. all the

vast resources of L.A. County He and that

wonderful Mrs. Dodge! Then almost the same

day came the letter from Ruth Hock, New York

office's secretary, telling me that Lee T. was

coming to L.A. Here was opportunity -- a real

live member of A.A. coming here! We chose

December 19th as the date and I wrote to

everyone who'd contacted me, and on that date

in my little house on Benecia in West Los

Angeles the following met: Lee and Chuck T.,

Barney and Ethel H., Chauncey and Edna C.,

Dwight S. and his sister, Joey and Mrs. S.,

three non-alcoholic women, Johnny Howe and me!

Do you still have that telegram I sent in such

triumph: "Los Angeles held its first meeting

tonight. Fifteen present." Two meetings at my

house, then we moved to Barney H.s in Glendale,

then back to my house on Gower in Hollywood in

February, 1940. We alternated between Barney

and Ethel's house and mine. By then Hal and

Estelle S. had joined us (January 18, 1940).

What a terrific thing you did in starting the

San Diego group in the jail, Hal, and in

starting the groups in Lincoln Heights.



From December 19, 1939 to the present time,

Barney has never let a week go by without at

least one meeting attended. Clarence Mc.

joined us in early February or late January,

1940, and though he was a bar-tender, never

so much as sniffed at a drink from that time

on. All unbeknownst to us, another grand

member had been born. Mort J. got sober in

Palm Springs between Christmas and New Years

of 1939. It was in early April, 1940 you

telephoned me, Mort, wasn't it? You said

you had tried to start a group in Denver and

hadn't had too much success and had decided to

come back to L.A. and had gotten my name and

address from Bill. I treasured for years the

florist card on which you said: "For you

graciousness, you friendship and unfailing

hospitality", and the postscript you wrote on

one of those letters I sent weekly and some-

times daily to Bill reporting your progress:

"What this country needs is not a good five

cent cigar, but more Kayes." Is that still on

file, Bill? I blessed my secretarial training

for those carbon copies I kept, so I could

trace our progress. In February Lee started the

group that became the Pasadena Home Group. One

very illustrious early member of that group was

"Doc" H. – he led the downtown beginners group

for years. Then she went to San Francisco. Now

I hear she's in Florida. Los Angeles will always

be grateful to Lee for her untiring efforts for

us here. It was she who got the City Mother of

the Examiner to give us a break, and it was she

who got Ted Le Berthon's publicity for us.

Bill B. came to us in about March of 1940 and

what a God-send he was. Sober - a member of the

Chicago Group--wonderfully steady. How he

helped us in those trying early days. Then he,

too, went to San Francisco. Frank C. joined us

while we were meeting in the house we'd rented

as a clubhouse on Crescent Heights in 1940

(either March of April). What a relief it was

to be able to be sure the group was in your

capable hands, Mort, when I went back to

Honolulu in May of 1940, and what a splendid

job you did in building up the group and

laying the foundation for all the many groups

here in the Los Angeles area. L.A. will never

forget Frank R., and the wonderful work he and

you did working together. I don't know exactly

when Frank came in, but it was after May 5, 1940.



Now that I am again faced with leaving

Southern California A.A., I desperately want

to straighten up any misunderstanding. Joy S.

is the oldest member in point of sobriety in

A.A., but he hasn’t been to a meeting since

April or May of 1940. Barney H. was at the

first meeting, too, but he had a little

trouble at first. Hal S. is the oldest member

who stayed sober and came to meetings starting

January 18, 1940. Mort Joseph was sober three

weeks before Hal, but didn't come to a meeting

in L.A. until about April (1940) (Bill's office

would have the exact date). That original gang

was the foundation of the group now known as

the "Mother Group". They outgrew our homes and

rented space at the Cecil Hotel, from there

they progressed--when I was here in March of

1941 they met at the Elk's Temple.



A.A. in Southern California is so pure and

unadulterated, don't spoil it EVER. If there

MUST be any glory attached to A.A., let it

rest equally on Barney, Hal and Mort, and on

all those people who tried so valiantly in

those earl days-- and Bill P., Wally K.,

Owen F. --A.A. is too big for petty squabbles.

The truth is bound to come out. What does it

matter who was first? We've pioneered so many

things here in L.A.-all men and all women

groups, colored groups and non-alcoholic

groups. If they exist in the East, I couldn't

find them in Chicago or Washington, D.C.



I shall always remember Bill Wilson's words

to me: "Though I am proud to have been an early

member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I'd still sell

my title as `Founder' for $1.98." That's true

humility, and if it's good enough for Bill,

it's good enough for me.



/s/ Kay Miller

`Scuse the lousy typing



******************************************



Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote in Message 5010, "What

determines the date AA is founded in a city?"



Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was

December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A.

Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us

now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles.

He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth

Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone

number and address where she lived and had

meetings. He went over and asked "Where's

the meeting?" "There are no meetings any

more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going

to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the

members of A. A," he asked. "They are all

drunk," she said bitterly.



Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard.

She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be

the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on

Main street. Through the good offices of Dr.

Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the

mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first

public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at

8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA

have continued uninterrupted since that date.


0 -1 0 0
5018 Charles Grotts
Re: The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles 5/16/2008 6:45:00 PM


If you get the cassette tape of a program in

1975, hosted by Sybil, where Mort J. and some

of the old-timers who founded AA in Los Angeles

spoke, it will provide you with a lot of

information about how AA started in 1939 in

Los Angeles, died out, and was revived in 1940.


0 -1 0 0
5019 Mel Barger
Re: The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles 5/17/2008 9:56:00 PM


Hi Folks,



This is Mel B. from Toledo offering an

opinion about the start of AA in Los Angeles.

I interviewed Kaye Miller in Sarasota and her

former husband, Ty Miller, in Cleveland, both

around 1980. Ty, unfortunately, was so far

gone with Alzheimer's that he couldn't come

up with any accurate memories.



In October, 1948, I heard a Glendale man

named Barney Haller speak in Santa Barbara.

He said that a group of them were meeting at

the request of the courts in 1939, but their

meeting wasn't AA at the time. Then a woman

wearing a fur coat and carrying a Big Book

popped into one of their meetings and told

how the program had helped her ex-husband.

I believe this was Kaye Miller, and she had

carried the book from the East on a trip to

the West. Barney apparently claimed this as

the start of AA in LA.



I don't know if this can be verified or

not. But I toss it into the hopper as another

opinion. I did see Barney once again and as

late as 1959, when he was still an active

member of the Glendale group.



However AA got to California, it really

took off when it did. Ohio led all the states

in AA membership until 1948, when California

took the lead. We can assume California has

had the lead ever since. My theory is that

California was already full of people who had

taken geographical cures by moving west. Once

they got to California, they couldn't go any

farther so they had no choice but to sober up!



Mel





Mel Barger < melb@accesstoledo.com >

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


0 -1 0 0
5020 Debi Ubernosky
Re: 26 Big Book Prayers 26 Big Book Prayers 5/15/2008 12:37:00 AM


From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@verizon.net>

(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)



A Google search of "Prayers of the Big Book"

returned this:



http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ppgaa6%20Articles/Big%20Book%20Prayers.doc



which is what I've seen before.



Alternately, go to

http://www.ppgaadallas.org/aa_articles.htm

and scroll down to "Prayers of the Big Book"

and click to download the MS Word doc.



Debi



- - - -



From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>

(barefootbill at optonline.net)



Please go to:



http://www.justloveaudio.com

click on "free resources"

then click on "12 Steps"

then click on "Step 10 & 11"

then click on "Step 11 Prayers in the Big Book"



Happy hunting!



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill



- - - -



From: "Donna Bridges"

<donnabridges1018@gmail.com>

(donnabridges1018 at gmail.com)



Start at page i, read through page 164 and note

as you find them...I'm sorry, I'm channeling my

sponsor



hugs to all,



db



- - - -



From: Jocelyn Geboy

<jocelyngeboy@sbcglobal.net>

(jocelyngeboy at sbcglobal.net)



i'm curious what you find out ... i find these

places where prayer is *explicitly* mentioned,

but i was going through the book pretty fast ...



pp. 59, 63, 67, 68, 69, 76, 83, 84, 85, 86, 86,

87, and 87



jocelyn



- - - -



Original Message No. 5015

From Hal <hallaws@yahoo.com>

(hallaws at yahoo.com)



> I am on the hunt for a list of what I have

> been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can

> anyone help point me in the right direction?

>

> THANKS!


0 -1 0 0
5021 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Editors of Second Edition: Tom P. Editors of Second Edition: Tom P. 5/19/2008 4:57:00 PM


Message #5003 from <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) noted that



"the chief editor for the second edition was

Edward Hale B."



It went on to say that other editors included

"Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of

the Grapevine - I don't know)."

______________________________



In a further message (18 May 2008) to

mdingle76@yahoo.com (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)



Jared Lobdell added the following remark:



"Thanks very much. My guess had been it was

Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure.



I'd be interested to know which was the story

Tom included that some AAs didn't like (or

whose author they didn't like)."


0 -1 0 0
5022 Doris Ringbloom
Re:The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles 5/19/2008 4:31:00 PM


Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was

Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940

at the South Pasadena Women's club. When

people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not

clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,

or Los Angeles county.



Doris R.


0 -1 0 0
5023 jax760
California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/20/2008 5:47:00 PM


Does anybody have any information on this

subject?



Thanks



....the California Supreme Court ordered all

Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the

California schools on the grounds that

Hazelden was promoting a religion.


0 -1 0 0
5024 Glenn Chesnut
Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous 5/23/2008 6:45:00 PM


From: "John Blair" <jblair@wmis.net>

(jblair at wmis.net)



Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous:

Nautis Project on UTube



See http://www.nautis.com/2008/05/22/jung-alcoholics-anonymous/



Or go directly to YouTube and see the original

video directly. It was posted by: amourxxx112,

and is entitled "Jung, Alcoholics Anonymous,

And Drug Seeking Behaviour"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceoB-tE5yWI


0 -1 0 0
5025 steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena 5/19/2008 5:32:00 PM


Unless I am mistaken, didn't Duke P. start AA

in Toledo? I heard him speak at his 56 year

(I think) anniversary in 99 or 2000 near

Jacksonville Florida.



He spoke a little about Toledo but that was

all. He didn't mention California.



We are talking about the Duke P. from "Dr Bob

and the Good Oldtimers," correct?



- - - -



Message #5022 from

"Doris Ringbloom" <dringbloom@netzero.net>

(dringbloom at netzero.net)



Re: The dispute over who

founded AA in Los Angeles



Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was

Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940

at the South Pasadena Women's club. When

people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not

clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,

or Los Angeles county.



Doris R.


0 -1 0 0
5026 Sally Brown
Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena 5/19/2008 7:19:00 PM


A historical footnote to Pasadena AA: Thanks

to the founding of an AA group around 1940

(this seems to be an unresolved date so far -

does GSO have a record?), a local resident,

Tom Pike, joined in 1946. Three years later,

in 1949, his equally famous wife, Katherine,

already a community leader (but not an

alcoholic), founded the Pasadena affiliate

of the National Council on Alcoholism.

Pasadena was the second Calif NCA affiliate,

after Santa Barbara. Both Pikes became

prominent leaders in NCA nationally.



This is a good example of AA's spillover

effect in many, many communities. Once AA was

established, NCA (NCADD today) then became

a primary mover and shaker in stimulating

communities to undertake the myriad tasks of

reducing the stigma of addiction that AA could

not, e.g. education beyond the AA membership

about addiction, lobbying for adequate medical

care of alcoholics, influencing local, state,

and federal legislation on behalf of alcoholics,

etc.



Marty Mann, the founder of NCA and herself a

very early member of AA (1939, NYC), said her

organization might never have got off the

ground if AA didn't already exist as an

excellent resource and solution for referral.



Shalom - Sally



Rev Sally Brown

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain

United Church of Christ



Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of

Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics

Anonymous



1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309

www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650/325/5258



- - - -



Note from the moderator:



Tom Pike and Brinkley Smithers personally

lobbied President Nixon, their fellow

Republican, in support of the Hughes Act.

Brink eventually also enlisted the support

of Don Kendall, the CEO of Pepsi, and Nixon

finally signed the bill, which was the most

important piece of successful alcoholism

legislation in U.S. history. This provided

the basis, in many crucial ways, of the

modern alcoholism and drug addiction

treatment center.



See the book by Nancy Olson, who founded

the AAHistoryLovers, "With a Lot of

Help from Our Friends: The Politics of

Alcoholism," for the full story of how a

small number of AA members combined forces

to get that epoch-making piece of legis-

lation passed and implemented by the U.S.

Congress.



http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)


0 -1 0 0
5027 steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
Re: California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/22/2008 3:11:00 PM


I know there were simlar court cases slightly

related to it. There is a movement to have AA

labeled as religion:



http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2007/09/07/chronicle/archive/2007/09/07/BA99S\

1AKQ.html




San Francisco Chronicle



Parolees can't be forced into

Alcoholics Anonymous, court rules



Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer



Friday, September 7, 2007



SAN FRANCISCO - Alcoholics Anonymous, the

renowned 12-step program that directs problem

drinkers to seek help from a higher power,

says it's not a religion and is open to

nonbelievers. But it has enough religious

overtones that a parolee can't be ordered

to attend its meetings as a condition of

staying out of prison, a federal appeals

court ruled today.



In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of

Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional

dividing line between church and state in such

cases is so clear that a parole officer can be

sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go

through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous

or an affiliated program for drug addicts.



Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have

established that "requiring a parolee to attend

religion-based treatment programs violates the

First Amendment," the court said. "While we in

no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics

Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance

in their programs may not be coerced by the

state."



The 12 steps required for participants in both

programs include an acknowledgment that "a power

greater than ourselves could restore us to

sanity," and a promise to "turn our will and

our lives over to the care of God as we

understood Him." They also call for prayer

and meditation.



Today's 3-0 ruling allows a Honolulu man to go

to trial in a suit on behalf of his late father,

Ricky Inouye, who was paroled from a drug

sentence in November 2000. A Buddhist, he

objected to religiously oriented drug treatment

in prison, sued state officials over the issue,

and told Hawaii parole authorities just before

his release that he would object to any

condition that included a treatment program

with religious content.



When Inouye was arrested for trespassing in

March 2001 and tested positive for drugs, his

parole officer, Mark Nanamori, ordered him to

attend a Salvation Army treatment program that

included participation in Narcotics Anonymous

meetings, the court said.



Inouye showed up but refused to participate,

dropped out after two months, and, for that

and other reasons, was sent back to prison

in November 2001 for violating his parole.



After his release in 2003, he sued Nanamori

and others for violating his constitutional

rights. Inouye died while the suit was pending

and his son took over the case.



A federal judge dismissed the suit, saying

officers are required to pay damages for

violating constitutional rights only when

those rights are already clearly established.



But the appeals court said Nanamori should have

known in 2001 that coerced participation in a

religion-based program was unconstitutional,

because eight state and federal courts had

ruled on the issue by then and all had agreed

that a parolee has a right to be assigned to

a secular treatment program.



E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com

(begelko at sfchronicle.com)



- - - -



Original message From <jax760@yahoo.com>

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



Does anybody have any information on this

subject? Thanks



....the California Supreme Court ordered all

Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the

California schools on the grounds that

Hazelden was promoting a religion.


0 -1 0 0
5028 Mitchell K.
Re: California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/22/2008 3:59:00 PM


From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton



- - - -



From "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>

(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)



It is interesting that this would even be called a

subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the

writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers

or some other AA bashing site.



I would think right off the top of my head that no

suppreme court would ban all literature from any

publisher regardless whether or not that publisher

promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks

in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall

any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts

have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a

religious activity but again, I do not recall any

ruling stating that AA was a religion.



I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially

students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great

Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques"

on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really

neat arguments. One will never win with these folks

(whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate

or discuss but to frustrate.



Upon review of the web site of the California Courts

( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about

this what I believe is another urban legend. I also

reviewed the California Department of Education web

site and again, found nothing relating to this.



Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings

stating that AA is a religious activity no longer

mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA

literature. One such edict can be found at

http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm

- The New York State Office of Alcoholism and

Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin

#2002-05



It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate

participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle

of separation of church and state."



Simply put according to what I looked at on the net -

URBAN LEGEND



- - - -



From: William Middleton <wmiddlet44@yahoo.com>

(wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com)



I "Googled" that sentence and it returned

this address....



http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html



That article said:



"Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics

Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large

treatment agency accounts for two thirds of

the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature.

Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is

Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute

A.A. literature that the California Supreme

Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature

removed from the California schools on the

grounds that Hazelden was promoting a

religion."



May GOD Bless You!

Bill



- - - -



Original message from <jax760@yahoo.com>

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



Does anybody have any information on this

subject? Thanks



....the California Supreme Court ordered all

Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the

California schools on the grounds that

Hazelden was promoting a religion.


0 -1 0 0
5029 David
Re: California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/23/2008 5:42:00 PM


From crescentdave, dikilee, and chief_roger



- - - -



From "David" <crescentdave@yahoo.com>

(crescentdave at yahoo.com)



Here's one piece of the puzzle: per Michael J.

Bohn, M.D., Clinical Associate Professor,

Department of Psychiatry, U.W. Medical School,

Gateway Recovery, Madison, WI reported in 1994:

AA and Hazelden materials religious and banned

from California Youth Authority classrooms.



Note: this is NOT the same as regular public

schools.



cit:

http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/substabuse/Education/Teleconference/ArchivedMaterials/\

2002presentations/AATALK021202.pdf.




- - - -



From: "Dick" <dikilee@yahoo.com>

(dikilee at yahoo.com)



There was a 1994 California case: California

State Employees Association vs. The California

Youth Authority, in which the court held that

Hazelden materials could not be used in CYA

classrooms. I do not believe this was the

California Supreme Court as a year later it

was thrown out by another judge.



- - - -



From: ROGER WHEATLEY <chief_roger@yahoo.com>

(chief_roger at yahoo.com)



I found this on an atheist website along with

other litigation supporting their view that AA

is a religious organization.



"In 1994, all materials from Hazelden

Publications, a publishing arm of AA, were

ordered out of California Youth Authority

classrooms. Additionally, decrees announcing

the right to refuse Twelve-Step participation

were posted in all living quarters."



http://www.americanatheist.org/spr97/T2/piety.html



- - - -



Original message from <jax760@yahoo.com>

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



Does anybody have any information on this

subject? Thanks



....the California Supreme Court ordered all

Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the

California schools on the grounds that

Hazelden was promoting a religion.


0 -1 0 0
5030 Mitchell K.
Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell Big Book cover and Ray Campbell 5/22/2008 6:31:00 PM


Even though this is a reply to an oldie here is some

more biographical info about Ray...



Raymond M. Campbell was approximately 44 years old

when he designed the Dust Jackets for the Big Book. He

was born on 12, September 1894 in New Haven

Connecticut. During his lifetime he lived in

Connecticut and Manhattan (NYC). In 1938, Ray lived at

the Gipsy Trail Club in Kent, NY which had a Carmel,

NY mailing address. Circa 1921 he married a woman

named Fanny who was born in NY around 1891. Fanny

predeceased Ray.



Ray died in Orange, Connecticut (New Haven County) on

15, January 1986.



Even though according to the US Census, Ray was listed

as a printer and artist and folks have said he was a

recognized artist, I have yet to find any examples of

his art work other than the Dust Jacket. Nell Wing

told me that Ray had painted a portrait of Jesus that

was supposed to have been a real work of art. Neither

she nor Lois remembered where that portrait ended up.

I am continuing to research to find more information.



I also tracked down a relative of T. E. Borton whose

home one of the early Cleveland meeting was held. Mr.

Borton was not a member of AA but the relative has not

answered any of my attempts at contacting him. T.E.

Borton IV lives in Atlanta, GA



Lots of living relatives I have been trying to locate

appear to be reluctant to answer any attempts at

contact. It would be nice to find out how our founding

members spent the rest of their lives.



Irwin Meyerson, the Jewish Venetian Blind salesman

from Cleveland and sponsored by Clarence Snyder and

helped start AA in Atlanta, GA, West VA and had some

influence in Indiana and orher places was living in

Los Angeles, CA in 1964. His father Meyer died in 1964

in North Hollywood, CA.



I'm trying to do a research piece on whatver happened

to....







--- Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



> Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell,

> who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have

> been discussing:

>

> http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

>

> An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell

> New York City

> p. 380 in 1st edition

>

> Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938.

>

> He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer:

> "There is a principle which is a bar against

> all information, which is proof against all

> arguments and which can not fail to keep a man

> in everlasting ignorance-that principle is

> contempt prior to investigation."

>

> He said that the quotation is descriptive of

> the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when

> the subject of religion, as a cure, is first

> brought to their attention. "It is only when

> a man has tried everything else, when in utter

> desperation and terrific need he turns to

> something bigger than himself, that he gets

> a glimpse of the way out. It is then that

> contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by

> fulfillment."

>

> Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual

> help rather than "a description of the neurotic

> drinking that made the search necessary."

>

> After investigating his alcoholic problem from

> every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry,

> and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with

> religion as a possible way out. He had been

> approaching God intellectually. That only

> added to his desperation, but a seed had been

> planted.

>

> Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson,

> who had for five years "devoted a great deal

> of time and energy to helping alcoholics."

> The man told him little he didn't already know,

> "but what he did have to say was bereft of all

> fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple

> Christianity imparted with Divine Power."

>

> The next day he met over twenty men who "had

> achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism."

>

> He liked them because the were ordinary men

> who were not pious nor "holier than thous."

>

> He notes that these men were but instruments.

> "Of themselves they were nothing."

>

> He must have been an intellectual type. He not

> only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men

> lead lives of quiet desperation."

>

> It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked

> to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition

> of the Big Book. He submitted various designs

> for consideration including one that was blue

> and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was

> red, and yellow, with a little black, and a

> little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous

> were printed across the top in large white

> script. It became known as the circus jacket

> because of its loud circus colors. The unused

> blue jacket is today in the Archives at the

> Stepping Stones Foundation.

>

> His story was not included in the Second

> Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote

> was placed in the back of the book in

> Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience."

>

>

>





The most wonderful thing about losing my memory is that now I will always be

able to discover new places, meet new people and make new friends...


0 -1 0 0
5031 Gene
Lois'' Picnic is June 7th ,not June 3rd Lois'' Picnic is June 7th ,not June 3rd 5/24/2008 1:03:00 PM


Friends,



The notice sent out by the group is incorrect-

It is the Annual Steppingstones picnic in Bedford-

It is always the first Saturday in June



This year the date is June 7th

http://www.steppingstones.org/house.html



Gene in Westchester


0 -1 0 0
5032 David
Re: California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/25/2008 6:04:00 PM AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , "Mitchell K."

<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:

>

> From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton

>

> - - - -

>

> From "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@...>

> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

>

> It is interesting that this would even be called a

> subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the

> writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers

> or some other AA bashing site.

>

> I would think right off the top of my head that no

> suppreme court would ban all literature from any

> publisher regardless whether or not that publisher

> promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks

> in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall

> any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts

> have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a

> religious activity but again, I do not recall any

> ruling stating that AA was a religion.

>

> I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially

> students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great

> Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques"

> on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really

> neat arguments. One will never win with these folks

> (whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate

> or discuss but to frustrate.

>

> Upon review of the web site of the California Courts

> ( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about

> this what I believe is another urban legend. I also

> reviewed the California Department of Education web

> site and again, found nothing relating to this.

>

> Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings

> stating that AA is a religious activity no longer

> mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA

> literature. One such edict can be found at

> http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm

> - The New York State Office of Alcoholism and

> Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin

> #2002-05

>

> It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate

> participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle

> of separation of church and state."

>

> Simply put according to what I looked at on the net -

> URBAN LEGEND

>

> - - - -

>

> From: William Middleton <wmiddlet44@...>

> (wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com)

>

> I "Googled" that sentence and it returned

> this address....

>

> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html

>

> That article said:

>

> "Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics

> Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large

> treatment agency accounts for two thirds of

> the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature.

> Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is

> Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute

> A.A. literature that the California Supreme

> Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature

> removed from the California schools on the

> grounds that Hazelden was promoting a

> religion."

>

> May GOD Bless You!

> Bill

>

> - - - -

>

> Original message from <jax760@...>

> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

>

> Does anybody have any information on this

> subject? Thanks

>

> ....the California Supreme Court ordered all

> Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the

> California schools on the grounds that

> Hazelden was promoting a religion.

>


0 -1 0 0
5033 chief_roger
Re: Question about the circle, triangle and other Question about the circle, triangle and other 5/26/2008 10:07:00 AM


General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous (Great Britain) Limited

publishes much of its own literature. The hard cover Big Book is one

of these items (other versions of the BB are purchased from AAWS and

imported). Also some pamphlets it has borrowed and "anglecized" and

others produced by and for the population they serve. T

The "circle triangle" is used by the GSB GB (the body who publishes

this literature. The circle triangel was not "banned", AAWS chose to

drop it as a registered trademark for reasons probably detailed

elsewhere on this site and others. The version used on GB literatures

has the words unity, service, recovery around the outside of the

triangle.

I served as a conference delegate for the standadrd three years term

in GB. during that time, I learned a great deal about AA literature

in GB and its conference approval, development, and publication

differ significantly from the process in US/Canada.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ginnymatthew"

<ginnymatthew@...> wrote:

>

> I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book

> printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and

> the title page have the AA circle and triangle

> logo that I thought was 'banned' from being

> used back in 1996. How is it that they are

> able to use this logo?

>

> Also on the front page is a disclaimer which

> states "No part of this publication may be

> reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,

> or transmitted in any form or by any means

> without the prior permission of the publisher."

>

> U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.

> What is that about?

>

> Gratefully,

> Ginny

>


0 -1 0 0
5034 Charles Grotts
Re: California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/26/2008 12:25:00 PM


I did a Westlaw search in California reported

and unreported cases from 1990-1999 and did

not find the word "Hazelden."



In California criminal sentencing law, AA is

considered a sectarian group. Attendance at

AA can still be made a condition of probation

but only if the probationer has an option to

attend a non-sectarian self-help group, and

only if the probationer does not object to it.

Cal. Code of Regulations, Title 9, Section 9860.


0 -1 0 0
5035 John Lee
Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell Big Book cover and Ray Campbell 5/24/2008 3:21:00 PM


Raymond Campbell also misquoted Thoreau. The

correct quote from Thoreau is, "The mass of

men lead lives of quiet desperation." The quote

can be found in Walden, published 1854.

John Lee

Pittsburgh



- - - -



See Ray C.'s story, "An Artist's Concept,"

First Edition pp. 380-385, where he alters

that line from Thoreau to say:



"'Most men,' wrote Thoreau, 'lead lives of

quiet desperation.' It was the articulation

of this despair that led to my drinking in

the beginning."


0 -1 0 0
5036 jenny andrews
Re: California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/27/2008 8:59:00 AM


Circuit judge Diane Wood's ruling would be

incontrovertible if AA members were required

to practice the 12 Steps as a religious

discipline; but as we know, the only require-

ment for AA membership is a desire to stop

drinking (or, as in my case, to stay stopped).

There is no creedal imperative in the AA

program.



Complications arise when, for example, patients

in a treatment centre are indeed required to

practice some or all of the 12 Steps as part

of that institution's regime. As Dave reminds

us, this dissonance goes to the heart of our

Traditions.



Bill W. wrote: "As a society we must never

become so vain as to suppose that we are

authors of a new religion. We will humbly

reflect that every one of AA's principles

has been borrowed from ancient sources."

(Alcoholics Anonmymous Comes of Age).



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com

(Baileygc23 at aol.com)



AA says it is not a religion and the written

word of AA reinforces this thought, but some

of the religious-minded within AA have

presented AA as a God-based thing. What can

the courts do but react to the vast majority

of the members and their need to expound on

their view of AA?


0 -1 0 0
5037 Alan Spencer
Anonymity statement Anonymity statement 5/27/2008 11:35:00 AM


Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had

the statement displayed:



"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when

you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity

is the spiritual foundation of our program."



At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where

this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon

calls their anonymity statement?



Alan S., New Mexico



- - - -



From the moderator:



Some of the AA meetings in my part of the US

have a reading which is read at the beginning

of meetings, called "The Tools of Recovery"



See http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html



It was put together by two of my sponsor's

sponsors. The seventh tool is that anonymity

statement. Some of the local folks say that

this statement was first read by one of the

people who put together the seven "tools of

recovery" when he was attending an Al-Anon

meeting (or in another version of the story

an O.A. meeting). I have never checked that

out though.



Do any members of our group know more about

this?



We also need to remember that, as Bill W.

himself once pointed out, everything in AA

was originally borrowed from someone else.



The "Think Think Think" signs came from IBM,

the Serenity Prayer from a newspaper obituary,

the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings

from the Oxford Group, and so on.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
5038 Art Boudreault
Anonymity Statement Anonymity Statement 5/29/2008 6:04:00 PM


Dear Alan,



This card is indeed published by Al-Anon Family Groups.



The official anonymity policy can be found in their Service Manual 2006 - 2009

on pages 83 and 84. The service manual is also available on the web site

http://www.al-anon.org/members



I copied the reference below my signature. The part in italics is often read at

open Al-Anon meetings.



Sincerely,



Art Boudreault

Anonymity



The experience of our groups suggests that the principle of anonymity—summed up

in Tradition Twelve as “the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions”—has

three elements: There is anonymity as it applies outside Al-Anon, governing our

contacts with nonmembers and organizations; anonymity within the fellowship; and

anonymity as it contributes to our personal growth.



Anonymity Outside Al-Anon



Tradition Eleven gives a specific guideline: “we need always maintain personal

anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV and films.” This gives potential

members confidence that their identity will not be revealed when they join

Al-Anon. Also, personal anonymity at the public level guards the fellowship from

the Al-Anon/Alateen member who may be tempted to seek public recognition. When

speaking or writing as an Al-Anon/Alateen member at the level of press, radio,

TV or films, use only first names or pseudonyms. In photographs for publication

and in TV appearances, faces should not be recognizable. This may be achieved by

back-tocamera or blurring of features in some way. It is, however, important to

make Al-Anon known through our public information work with professionals who

come into contact with families still suffering from the effects of alcoholism.

Such contacts, of course, make it necessary for the Al-Anon and Alateen members

involved to give their full names. Al-Anon members also give their full names to

interested doctors, spiritual leaders, school or industrial personnel.



Anonymity Within Al-Anon



Members use their full names within the fellowship when they wish. The degree of

anonymity a member chooses (first name, pseudonym, or full name) is not subject

to criticism. Each member has the right to decide. Regardless of our personal

choice, we guard the anonymity of everyone else in the fellowship,

Al-Anon/Alateen and A.A. This means not revealing to anyone—even to relatives,

friends, and other members—whom we see and what we hear at a meeting. Anonymity

goes well beyond mere names. All of us need to feel secure in the knowledge that

nothing seen or heard at a meeting will be revealed. We feel free to express

ourselves among our fellow Al-Anons because we can be sure that what we say will

be held in confidence.



84 Al-Anon/Alateen Members’ Web site: Digest of Al-Anon and Alateen Policies



At open Al-Anon meetings, group anniversaries, conventions, or workshops where

nonmembers are present, Al-Anon and Alateen members are free to decide how much

anonymity they prefer. It is well to open such meetings with a brief explanation

of the Eleventh and Twelfth Traditions. One suggestion is as follows:



There may be some who are not familiar with our Tradition of personal anonymity

at the public level. If so, we respectfully ask that no Al-Anon, Alateen or A.A.

speaker or member be identified by full name or picture in published or

broadcast reports of our meeting. The assurance of anonymity is essential to our

efforts to help other families of alcoholics, and our Tradition of anonymity

reminds us to place Al-Anon and Alateen principles above personalities.



At the service level (Group Representatives, District Representatives, World

Service Conference members, etc.) it is practical to use full names and

addresses to facilitate communication. Letters (including the return address) to

an Al-Anon or Alateen member should never have the name Al-Anon or Alateen on

the envelope. Letters to The Forum should give full names, addresses and phone

numbers. Material that is published will be signed any way the writer wishes:

first name and initial, initials only, “Anonymous”—either with or without

geographical location. Area Newsletter Editors usually follow this procedure.



Anonymity in Our Personal Growth



Each member has the right of decision regarding personal anonymity within the

fellowship. We share as equals, regardless of social, educational or financial

position. Common sense in the use of anonymity provides freedom and the security

each member is assured in Al-Anon. Our spiritual growth has its roots in the

principle of anonymity.



2. Anonymity statement

Posted by: "Alan Spencer" alan.nm46@yahoo.com alan.nm46

Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT))



Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had

the statement displayed:



"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when

you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity

is the spiritual foundation of our program."



At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where

this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon

calls their anonymity statement?



Alan S., New Mexico





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
5039 Steven Leeds
RE: Anonymity statement Anonymity statement 5/29/2008 4:00:00 PM


I've seen in documentaries about the Manhattan

Project the slogan "Whom you see here. What

you see here. When you leave here let it stay

here" posted in the factories.



I think it did may have originated from there.



Blessings,

Steven L.



- - - -



From the moderator:



The Manhattan Project (1941-1946) was the top

secret World War II project in which the United

States, Canada, and the United Kingdom worked

together to produce the first atomic bomb.

Research took place at over thirty sites in

the United States, Canada, and United Kingdom.



If this was a Manhattan Project slogan, it

seems likely that it was they who invented it,

and our Al-Anon sisters and brothers who then

later on "went nuclear" by adapting the slogan

for their use.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)


0 -1 0 0
5040 diazeztone
Revising my beginners AA history book page Revising my beginners AA history book page 5/29/2008 9:21:00 PM


I am revising my beginners AA history book page.



http://www.aabibliography.com/beginnersbooks.htm



Suggestions and input are needed.



I certainly need to add Glenn'ss books. Any

other suggestions?



I am trying to keep this to one 8-1/2 by 11

inch page to make it easily printable.



Email me personally at <eztone@hotmail.com>

(eztone at hotmail dot com)



I would increase this list to two pages, if

the group thought there were that many books

that need to be added.



LD Pierce

editor aabibliography.com


0 -1 0 0
5041 Alex H.
Bob Corwin passing (was: Sybil C. & Tex) Bob Corwin passing (was: Sybil C. & Tex) 5/30/2008 12:52:00 AM


I just received word that Bob Corwin (Sybil

Corwin's husband) died Saturday 24 May 2008

at the age of 86.



According to Matt M. Bob had a stroke last

year and had an assisted-living housekeeper

since then. Bob suffered from a second stroke

on Friday, was taken to the hospital and died

the next day. His son was at his bedside.



Bob C. came into AA in 1948 (Sybil had come

into AA in 1941) and after several relapses,

Bob maintained continuous sobriety for 44 years

until his death.



It has been Matt M's habit to call Bob C.

once a week but this time, Bob's son called

Matt.



Alex H.


0 -1 0 0
5042 Pat Jehn, RN C, LNC
Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement 5/31/2008 2:37:00 PM


Mates:



I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature

the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and

Alateen" is encouraged.



We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that

some people want to put include ACA (Adult

Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting

schedules.



I understand that Tradition 6 should be

sufficient to cover this matter, but the

exact wording of the "cooperation with other

activities" statement would help.



Thanks for your assistance.



Pat Jehn, RN,C

Legal Nurse Consultant

MEDICAL-LEGAL CONSULTING, LLC

399 S. 12th St.

DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435



PatJehn@Embarqmail.Com

(PatJehn at Embarqmail.Com)



850-951-9899


0 -1 0 0
5043 chesbayman56
Significant June Dates in A.A. History Significant June Dates in A.A. History 5/31/2008 5:14:00 PM


June 1:

1949 - Anne Smith, Dr. Bob's wife, died.



June 4:

2002- Caroline Knapp, author of "Drinking: A Love Story" died sober

of lung cancer.





June 5:

1940 - Ebby Thatcher took a job at the NY Worlds Fair.



June 6:

1940 - The first AA Group in Richmond, VA, was formed.

1979 - AA gave the two-millionth copy of the Big Book to Joseph

Califano, then Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare. It was

presented by Lois Wilson, Bill's wife, in New York.



June 7:

1939 - Bill and Lois Wilson had an argument, the first of two times

Bill almost slipped.

1941 - The first AA Group in St. Paul, Minnesota, was formed.



June 8:

1941 - Three AA's started a group in Kalamazoo, Michigan.



June 10:

1935 - The date that is celebrated as Dr. Bob's last drink and the

official founding date of AA. There is some evidence that the

founders, in trying to reconstruct the history, got the date wrong

and it was actually June 17.



June 11:



1945 - Twenty-five hundred attend AA's 10th Anniversary in Cleveland,

Ohio.

1969 - Dr. Bob's granddaughter, Bonna, daughter of Sue Smith and

Ernie Galbraith (The Seven Month Slip in the First Edition) killed

herself after first killing her six-year-old child.

1971 - Ernie Galbraith died.



June 13:

1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for AA with large audience.

He was kept under surveillance to make sure he didn't drink.



June 15:

1940 - First AA Group in Baltimore, MD, was formed.



June 16:

1938 - Jim Burwell, "The Vicious Cycle" in Big Book, had his last

drink.





June 17:

1942 - New York AA groups sponsored the first annual NY area

meeting. Four hundred and twenty-four heard Dr. Silkworth and AA

speakers.



June 18:

1940 - One hundred attended the first meeting in the first AA

clubhouse at 334-1/2 West 24th St., New York City.





June 19:

1942 - Columnist Earl Wilson reported that NYC Police Chief Valentine

sent six policemen to AA and they sobered up. "There are fewer

suicides in my files," he commented.





June 21:

1944 - The first Issue of the AA Grapevine was published.





June 24:

1938 - Two Rockefeller associates told the press about the Big

Book "Not to bear any author's name but to be by 'Alcoholics

Anonymous.'"



June 25:

1939 - The New York Times reviewer wrote that the Big Book is "more

soundly based psychologically than any other treatment I have ever

come upon."





June 26:

1935 - Bill Dotson. (AA #3) entered Akron's City Hospital for his

last detox and his first day of sobriety.



June 28:

1935 - Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson visited Bill Dotson at Akron's City

Hospital.



June 30:

1941 - Ruth Hock showed Bill Wilson the Serenity Prayer and it was

adopted readily by AA.

2000 - More than 47,000 from 87 countries attended the opening

meeting of the 65th AA Anniversary in Minneapolis, MN.



Other significant events in June for which we have no specific date:



1948 - A subscription to the AA Grapevine was donated to the Beloit,

Wisconsin, Public Library by a local AA member.

1981 - AA in Switzerland held its 25th Anniversary Convention with

Lois Wilson and Nell Wing in attendance.


0 -1 0 0
5044 John Lee
Re: Significant June Dates in A.A. History Significant June Dates in A.A. History 6/1/2008 1:46:00 PM


Morgan R.'s radio appearance on Gabriel

Heatter's NBC program was in 1939, not in

1945. Previous postings, including one from

NBC licensing, indicate that the actual date

of the program was April 25, 1939, shortly

after the publication of the Big Book. Morgan

was sequestered in the Downtown Athletic Club

to ensure a sober appearance on the 1939 radio

show. I believe Morgan was the guy who ran a

multilith copy of the Big Book past the New

York Catholic Publications Office for its

comments. His crisp appearance at the 1940

Rockefeller dinner at the Union Club is also

noted in the Conference literature.



John Lee

Pittsburgh



- - - -



Message 5043 from <chesbayman56@yahoo.com>

(chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) said:



June 13:

1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for

AA with large audience. He was kept under

surveillance to make sure he didn't drink.



- - - -



From the moderator:



Hmmm. Could this have been an error that

crept into this year's date list? or has

there been reason to change the dating?



The date given up to this point has been

in the April section of the date list, as

in for example Messages 4941 (in 2008),

4206 (in 2007), and so on:



"April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on

Gabriel Heatter radio show."



See also:



- - - -



Message 4020: We The People Radio program 1939

From: <leeannplatner@yahoo.com>

(leeannplatner at yahoo.com)



We are searching for an episode of WE THE PEOPLE

radio program from April 1939 featuring Gabrielle

Heatter with guest, Morgan R and his discussion

of AA.



We produced the program, and have a transcript,

but we do not have a copy of the audio recording

and the holdings we donated to the Library of

Congress do not include this episode. We would

love to borrow and/or pay to have a dub made if

any member has an actual copy of this recording.



- - - -



Message 589: People in AA History - pt 4

From: <tcumming@airmail.net>

(tcumming at airmail.net)



Morgan R. - Irish Catholic, ex-ad man; came

A.A. early January 1939; had friend on Catholic

Committee Publications New York Archdiocese,

delivered mimeograph copy Big Book to committee,

they approved; spoke popular radio program

'We The People ' April 1939 shortly after

release Greystone institution; attended John

D. Rockefeller 's A.A. dinner Feb 1940; Wilson's

stayed his apartment about 2 months



(A 168-169,174-175,183) (B 286,295) (H 62)

(L 115,127) (N 47,75,90, 93) (P 201,207,208,

209,215,221,232-233)


0 -1 0 0
5045 David Jones
Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement 5/31/2008 4:45:00 PM


The Fellowships of Alcoholics Anonymous and the

Al-Anon Family Groups have a unique relationship.

They are naturally drawn together by their

close ties. And yet the Twelve Traditions, the

General Service Boards, and the General Service

Conferences of both Fellowships suggest that

each functions more effectively if it remains

"separate," cooperating but not affiliating

with the other. Each Fellowship has always had

its own General Service Board, General Service

Office, Conference, publishing company, and

directory. Each has established its own

policies and maintained its own services.

This separate functioning has served both A.A.

and Al-Anon Family Groups well. A.A.'s policy

of "cooperation but not affiliation" was

established as long ago as the early 1950s,

and both Al-Anon and A.A. recognized at that

time the importance of maintaining separate

Fellowships. However, from time to time,

questions come to both A.A. and Al-Anon

General Service Offices indicating confusion

as to how A.A. and Al-Anon may best cooperate

in the groups, intergroups or central offices,

and area and regional conventions and get

togethers. A.A. and Al-Anon have shared on

these questions, and A.A.'s General Service

Conference approved the following suggested

guidelines:



Question: Should a group be affiliated with

both A.A. and Al-Anon?



Answer: As the primary purpose of the A.A.

group is to help the sick alcoholic to recover

and the primary purpose of the Al-Anon Family

Group is to help the Al-Anon to live with

herself or himself, as well as with the

alcoholic, it is suggested they not be

combined, but remain separate groups. This

enables both Fellowships to function within

their Twelve Traditions and to carry their

messages more effectively. Thus, the group

name, the officers, and the meeting should be

either A.A. or Al-Anon, but not both. "The

A.A. Group" pamphlet suggests, "Whether open

or closed, A.A. group meetings are conducted

by A.A. members, who determine the format of

their meetings." At open meetings, non-A.A.s

may be invited to share, depending upon the

conscience of the group. Naturally, all are

welcome to open meetings of both A.A. and

Al-Anon groups.



Question: Should "family groups" be listed

in A.A. directories?



Answer: "After discussion, the Conference

reaffirmed A.A. group policy that only those

with a desire to stop drinking may be members

of A.A. groups; only A.A. members are eligible

to be officers of A.A. groups; nonalcoholics

are welcome at open meetings of A.A. It is

suggested that the word 'family' not be used

in the name of an A.A. group; if A.A.s and

their nonalcoholic mates wish to meet together

on a regular basis, it is suggested they

consider these gatherings 'meetings' and not

A.A. groups.



Listing in A.A. directories:



It was the sense of the meeting that the

family groups should not be listed under the

family group name in the directories.



Question: Should A.A. and Al-Anon have combined

central (or intergroup) services and offices?



Answer: Experience and the Twelve Traditions of

A.A. and Al-Anon suggest that each Fellowship

will function more effectively if each retains

separate committees, staffs, and facilities

for handling telephone calls, as well as

separate telephone answering services, inter-

group activities. bulletins, meeting lists,

and Twelfth Step services of all types. Also,

that the members involved in each service

committee or office be A.A. members, if an

A.A. facility, and Al-Anon, if an Al-Anon

facility.



Question: How may A.A. and Al-Anon cooperate in

area and regional conventions and get-togethers?



Answer: In accordance with the Twelve Traditions,

a convention would be either A.A. or Al-Anon --

not both. However, most A.A. convention

committees invite Al-Anon to participate by

planning its own program, and the committee

arranges for facilities for the Al-Anon meetings.



Question: When Al-Anon participates in an A.A.

convention, what is the financial relationship

between the two Fellowships?



Answer: The relationship and the financial

arrangements usually follow one of two

patterns: When an A.A. convention committee

invites Al-Anon to participate with its own

program, A.A. may pay all expenses (for

meeting rooms, coffee, etc.) and keep all

income from registrations, etc., in a single

fund used to pay all convention bills, after

which any excess income reverts back to A.A.

Alternatively, Al-Anon may have a separate

registration and pay its own direct expenses,

plus a proportionate share of common expenses

of the convention. Al-Anon, in this case,

receives its own share of the registration

income and also shares in any losses that

may be incurred.



A.A.®Guidelines from G.S.O., Box 459, Grand

Central Station, New York, NY 10163



A.A. Guidelines are compiled from the shared

experience of A.A. members in the various areas.

They also reflect guidance given through the

Twelve Traditions and the General Service

Conference (U.S. and Canada). In keeping with

our Tradition of Autonomy, except in matters

affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole,

most decisions are made by the group conscience

of the members involved. The purpose of these

Guidelines is to assist in reaching an informed

group conscience.



Relationship Between A.A. and Al-Anon



Question: Should an A.A. convention committee

make a contribution to Al-Anon from the

financial profits of the convention?



Answer: In accordance with the self-support

Traditions of both Fellowships and to abide by

the concept of "cooperation but not affili-

ation," it is suggested that A.A. should not

make gifts or contributions to Al-Anon. By the

same token, A.A. should not accept contributions

from Al-Anon.



If separate registrations have been kept for

both A.A. and Al-Anon members, however, income

may be easily assigned.



Question: How may I get in touch with Al-Anon?



Answer: Check your phone book for local

intergroup office, or write: Al-Anon/Alateen

Family Group, Inc., 1600 Corporate Landing

Parkway, Virginia Beach, VA 23454-5617.

Tel: 800/356/9996;

www.al-anon.alateen.org.



A.A.'s Debt of Gratitude to Al-Anon



The following resolution of gratitude to the

Fellowship of the Al-Anon Family Groups was

unanimously approved by the 1969 General Service

Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous.



The delegates of this, the 19th General Service

Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous, meeting in

official session in New York City, this 25th

day of April, 1969, do hereby declare:



WHEREAS, it is the desire of this Conference

to confirm the relationship between Alcoholics

Anonymous and the Al-Anon Family Groups, and

WHEREAS, it is the further desire of this

Conference to acknowledge A.A.'s debt of

gratitude to the Al-Anon Family Groups,

therefore,

BE IT RESOLVED, that Alcoholics Anonymous

recognizes the special relationship which it

enjoys with the Al-Anon Family Groups, a

separate but similar fellowship. And be it

further resolved that Alcoholics Anonymous

wishes to recognize, and hereby does recognize,

the great contribution which the Al-Anon Family

Groups have made and are making in assisting

the families of alcoholics everywhere.



God bless

Dave J.

>

> Mates:

>

> I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature

> the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and

> Alateen" is encouraged.

>

> We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that

> some people want to put include ACA (Adult

> Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting

> schedules.

>

> I understand that Tradition 6 should be

> sufficient to cover this matter, but the

> exact wording of the "cooperation with other

> activities" statement would help.

>

> Thanks for your assistance.

>

> Pat Jehn, RN,C

> Legal Nurse Consultant

> MEDICAL-LEGAL CONSULTING, LLC

> 399 S. 12th St.

> DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435

>

> PatJehn@Embarqmail.Com <mailto:PatJehn%40Embarqmail.Com>

> (PatJehn at Embarqmail.Com)

>

> 850-951-9899

>

>

>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
5046 James Bliss
Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement 5/31/2008 8:08:00 PM


It does not contain the phrase which you quote,

but there is a AA Guideline - 'Relationship

Between A.A. and Al-Anon' which addresses. It

states 'And yet the Twelve Traditions, the

General Service Boards, and the General Service

Conferences of both Fellowships suggest that

each functions more effectively if it remains

“separate,” cooperating but not affiliating

with the other.'



This guideline can be located at:

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-08_relationshipbet.pdf



Jim



- - - -



Pat Jehn, RN C, LNC wrote:

> Mates:

>

> I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature

> the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and

> Alateen" is encouraged.

>

> We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that

> some people want to put include ACA (Adult

> Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting

> schedules.



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>

(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)



Is a "meeting" schedule considered to be something published by AA?

If not, the traditions do not apply to it.



For example, almost every website for the local intergroup offices

list AA meetings and LINKS to other 12-step Fellowships webpages for

their meeting lists.



Many areas, especially those smaller areas, where daily meetings are

scarce, publish their lists which include all known 12-step fellowship

meetings.



As I understand it . . . Schedules are the act of a group of AA's, who

do not represent AA as such, IMO. If, for example AA, Al-anon and NA

or any other 12-step fellowship wish to combine their efforts to

publish a general schedule, it would seem prudent to do so, and it

would be a simple matter (less expensive, but more difficult to

coordinate), to identify each meeting under whatever 12-step

Fellowship it falls.



I see no reason (legally or otherwise) not to cooperate in this

matter, except perhaps an ego-territorial problem that some people

seem to have (resentment). After all, every one of the 12th steps is

about carrying the message of recovery. It's not about making sure we

keep separate from others or withholding information that could be and

generally is, very helpful.



Why oh why must we continue to act this way, like we (AA) have all the

answers and can't stand to share important information, make it easily

accessible to others, that could possibly save their lives?



I believe that it's important to follow the traditions, but so often

we push them far beyond the limits of their intention, into the

bizarre and useless.



Both AA and Al-anon have "blurbs" in their literature about "spirit of

cooperation" -- as they do about treatment centers and hospitals. I

think most of the 12-step fellowships remind us of this important

spiritual attitude.



Hugs for the trudge.



Jon (Raleigh)

9/9/82


0 -1 0 0
5047 Bent Christensen
Meeting formats Meeting formats 6/1/2008 4:21:00 AM


Hi group



Yesterday I was at a convent here in Denmark

and the subject meeting formats came up.



As I understand it the first meetings were

speaker meetings, is that correct? Do you have

any idea when and how the different meeting

formats developed?



Kind regards from sunny Denmark



Bent


0 -1 0 0
5048 John Hettish
Re: Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement Cooperation with Al-Anon and Alateen statement 6/1/2008 11:12:00 PM


Hello folks,



I have a copy of the Al-anon version of the

cooperation statement if anyone would like to

see it. I'm sure Al-anon's World Service

Office would also make it available if asked.



John Hettish

jhettish@united.net

(jhettish at united.net)


0 -1 0 0
5049 rajiv.behappy
Early four step AA program ??? Early four step AA program ??? 5/27/2008 8:52:00 AM


After reading Hank Parkhurst's proposed outline

for the Big book, it seems clear to me that the

original program had four steps in 1938 and not

the 6 Steps that Bill W wrote about as the

original AA's word-of-mouth steps in the July

1953 Grapevine article (and in AA Comes of Age).



Do any of you know what the original four steps

were?



Much Love



Rajiv Bhole



- - - -



Message #2567: HANK P.'s FOUR STEP RENDITION

From: <mertonmm3@yahoo.com>

(mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)



"In my mind religious experience - religion -

etc. should not be brought in. We are actually

irreligious - but we are trying to be helpful

- we have learned to be quiet - to be more

truthful - to be more honest - to try to be

more unselfish - to make other fellows troubles

- our troubles - and by following four steps

most of us have a religious experience. The

fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us."



- - - -



From the moderator, Glenn C.:



Rajiv, you needed to keep on reading in that

document,where Hank went on to say further

along:



"I am fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing

religious experience when actually that is

something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 -

3 - 4.



"In my mind the question is not particularly

the strength of the experience as much as the

improvement over what we were. I would ask a

man to compare himself as follows after say

a month –



"#1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have

more of a feeling that there is a power greater

than you [?]



"#2 - Have you cleaned out more completely

with a human being than ever before?



"#3 - Have you less bad things behind you

than ever before [?]



"#4 - Have you been more honest with youself

and your fellow man - Have you been more

honest with yourself and your fellow man -

Have you been more thoughtful of people with

whom you are associated - Has your life been

cleaner both by thought & action - Have you

looked at others less critically and yourself

more critically this last 30 days. You will

never be perfect but the question is have you

been more perfect?"



- - - -



These were not "four steps" that you took, in

the same sense as the twelve steps of the

twelve step program in the Big Book.



- - - -



There is also a mention of "four steps" in

Message #2788 from <tcumming@nc.rr.com>

(tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says:



From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book

story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:



"There are, it seems to me, four steps to be

taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.

First: Have a real desire to quit.

Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)

Third: Ask for His ever present help.

Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."



[That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &

3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to

He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4

Steps.]



- - - -



That was intended for people at the very

beginning, when they first came into

Alcoholics Anonymous. There were other

things that people had to do after that

(confession, restitution, regular prayer

and quiet time, and so on) which were

recognized as necessities in AA from the

beginning (and went back to Oxford Group

practice).



So it seems to me that it would be very

misleading to say that "the original program

had four steps in 1938."



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)


0 -1 0 0
5050 Art Boudreault
Re: Anonymity statement and Al-Anon''s table card Anonymity statement and Al-Anon''s table card 6/4/2008 9:28:00 PM


Dear AA History Lovers,



Posted by: "

Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT))



Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had

the statement displayed:



"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when

you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity

is the spiritual foundation of our program."



At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where

this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon

calls their anonymity statement?



Alan S., New Mexico



- - - -



I have continued to ask for dates and sources.

I asked 300 former and current Al-Anon

delegates and the Al-Anon World Service Office

(WSO) for the history of the table card.



The saying appears to have originated in Al-

Anon in Britain and was brought to the

attention of the US WSO in 1973. The WSO

found no references to the Manhattan Project

in their archives for any reason. As you may

know, the entire archive of Al-Anon has been

placed into a huge database from which they

may find anything in print that originated or

passed through their office. It is interesting

how quickly the word "who" was changed to

"whom".



Below my signature is a copy of the statement

I received from the WSO and two long timers.



Sincerely,



Art Boudreault



- - - -



From Al-Anon World Service Archives:



According to existing research, the table card

appears to have originated at Al-Anon meetings

in Britain, and was then produced by the WSO

in 1973. In the August 1973 issue of The

Forum, on page 4, in an article titled, “A

Delegate Re-Lives World Service Conference,”

Margaret H., Delegate at the 1973 World Service

Conference from South Carolina, wrote:



“The tent-fold card propped up during Al-Anon

meetings in Britain, bearing the words: “Who

you see here, what you hear here, let it stay

here.” So that all groups may profit from

the British Al-Anon reminder the WSO has

also produced these to sell for the 10¢ each,

or $1.00 a dozen; lest our members be tempted

to call our attention to the word “Who” as

ungrammatical, we hasten to explain in advance

that this was done on purpose to make it

colloquial and familiar.”



The word “who“ was replaced by “whom” sometime

between the 1978 printing and the 1981 printing,

and remains this way today.



We found no mention of the Manhattan Project

in the Al-Anon Archives. If you find out

anything more, I’d be interested to know.



From Irma ( member of Al-Anon since 1964): When

this placard first came out it said: "Who you

see here......." As I recall Blanche, a school

teacher and past delegate, wrote to the WSO

to say this is bad language. She told them it

should read "Whom you see here.." So it was

changed.



We talked about this at my homegroup one

night...why it was changed. While we were

discussing it, a small voice said: "Whom

cares?'



From Suzie C "My late husband worked for the

Atomic Energy Commission, while the A-bomb was

in its conception and early testing stages in

several very secure locations. Though he did

not join AA until later in his life (+/-10

years after I joined Al-Anon). I know that,

surreptitiously at first, then openly after

he joined AA, he read every piece of my

(propaganda!) Al-Anon literature. Later he

embraced the AA program himself. I am pretty

sure he would have told me if he recognized

the anonymity statement from any of his

connections with the AEC, which went on

throughout his life. sc28


0 -1 0 0
5051 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Anonymity statement Anonymity statement 6/6/2008 3:19:00 PM


Did Al-Anon go nuclear?



Well, the Al-Anon anonymity statement (as

used also by many AA groups, see for example

http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html ) reads:

"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when

you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity

is the spiritual foundation of our program."



The Manhattan Project sign (posted at more

than one of the secret World War II sites

involved in the building and dropping of the

first nuclear bombs) was identical except that

it had "what" instead of "whom," and three

monkeys (one with his hands over his eyes,

one with his hands over his ears, and one

with his hands over his mouth).



Even if the Al-Anon organization in the U.S.

says that they got it from the Al-Anon

organisation in Britain, the overall Manhattan

Project involved the U.S., Britain, and Canada

all three. British scientists (and research

facilities) were very much part of the team

that built the bomb. So saying that the

statement came originally from Britain does

not mean that it could not have had any link

to the Manhattan Project.



See the photo, for example, at the bottom of

the web page given below, where a prominent

road sign along an English highway says:



"Brentwood

Kelvedon Hatch A 128

Industrial Estates

Secret Nuclear Bunker"



This is from

http://www.patheticphotos.com/pathetic-things.htm

http://www.patheticphotos.com/Pathetic-Things/secret-nuclear-bunker.htm



We've already got the camel as an AA symbol and

the mythical bird called the phoenix (rising in

flight from the flames of rebirth). But three

monkeys as AA symbol? Hmmm. I have been told

that a long automobile ride with Frank N.,

Floyd P., Big Al M., and me all in the same

vehicle reminded some people of a trip with

the Three Stooges.



But anyway, here are some references, the first

one from the excellent website maintained by

the Tennessee State AA Archives. They say that

the Three Monkeys sign was displayed at Oak

Ridge, Tennessee, a major Manhattan Project

site, and show us an actual picture of what it

looked like:



http://area64tnarchives.org/whatyouseehere.html



<<What You See Here, What You Do Here, What

You Hear Here, When You Leave Here, Let It Stay

Here>>



http://narademo.umiacs.umd.edu/cgi-bin/isadg/viewseries.pl?seriesid=4110



<<Included, as well, are numerous close-ups of

billboard messages promoting loyalty and

security themes (e.g., in Notebook 59, bill-

board picture of three monkeys, announcing "What

You See Here, What You Do Here, What You Hear

Here,When You Leave Here, Let It Stay Here!").>>



http://www.wendoverairbase.com/HWA%20Sixty%20Years%20-%20LVRJ.doc



<<Barbed wire barred the entrance to hangars

and shops. Warning signs went up all along the

perimeter. The largest one, near the exit, read:

"WHAT YOU HEAR HERE, WHAT YOU SEE HERE, WHEN

YOU LEAVE HERE, LET IT STAY HERE.">>



http://www.mphpa.org/classic/VET_STORIES/MO/CG/Pages/Metro-P.htm



<<When we returned the ramp was fenced in and

we had to wear special badges to be admitted.

More personnel were arriving daily, forming

support units, to form the 509th Composite

Group. Col. Tibbets told us we were going to

"hasten the war's end". Our airplanes began

arriving; we knew then that our mission was

special, by the configuration of the planes

(no gun turrets, etc.) and other circumstantial

manifestations. We radar types had been

subjected to loyalty investigations before

we were eligible for radar training, so the

signs, "What you see here, what you hear here,

when you leave here, let it stay here!" wasn't

anything new.>>



http://books.google.com/books?id=6-jWpCYBTR0C&pg=PA269&lpg=PA269&dq=%22when+you+\

leave+here+let+it+stay+here22+Manhattan+Project&source=web&ots=W-XQWIytdv&sig=zF\

nqFv2joIPddBGcwRVcTXJpvqI&hl=en




<<... WHEN YOU LEAVE HERE LET IT STAY HERE



"That's the original," Miss Marx explained to

me, as if it were a Picasso.



"The original from -- "



"From the Manhattan Project. It used to hang

over the gates at Los Alamos. It's sort of

the unofficial motto of the Skytale Club.

It's part of why our members can feel

relaxed here.">>


0 -1 0 0
5052 Steven Leeds
Re: Anonymity statement and the Oak Ridge nuclear facility Anonymity statement and the Oak Ridge nuclear facility 6/6/2008 3:37:00 PM


Here's a link to the source of the saying, on

the Tennessee state AA archives site:



http://area64tnarchives.org/whatyouseehere.html



It originated from the Oak Ridge Facility, from

signs used during the Second World War. Almost

every history page on the internet for the Oak

Ridge facility makes mention of the monkeys and

the saying.



Blessings,

Steven L.


0 -1 0 0
5053 diane unger
Text of the Gabriel Heatter broadcast Text of the Gabriel Heatter broadcast 6/3/2008 8:30:00 AM


Gabriel Heatter, the nationally recognized

radio broadcaster, provided the forum for the

first national exposure received by Alcoholics

Anonymous, April 25, 1939. Heatter's nightly

"We The People" radio broadcast was a tremend-

ously popular program listened to by millions

of people nationwide. Heatter was known for

his trademark line, "Ah, there's good news

tonight!" Little did he know how good that news

was to become to suffering alcoholics worldwide.



Morgan R., the AA member who spoke on the

program, was a former ad man. The broadcast

was expected to launch sales of the newly

published book, Alcoholics Anonymous. The

story of Morgan's three day "captivity" to

prevent him from drinking before the broadcast,

and the resulting two Big Book sales are

described in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of

Age on pages 174-175.



"WE THE PEOPLE"



HEATTER:



The man beside me now has had one of the most

gripping and dramatic experiences I've ever

heard. I'm not going to tell you his name.

And when you hear what he has to say I think

you'll understand why. But after checking the

facts the Listeners Committee of "We The

People" decided to grant him time because

they feel that if one person is helped by

hearing his story, then WE THE PEOPLE will

have done a real service. Alright, sir.



ANONYMOUS GUEST:



Six months ago I got out of an insane asylum.

I'd been sent there because I was drinking

myself to death. But the doctors said they

could do nothing for me. And only four years

ago I was making 20,000 dollars a year. I was

married to a swell girl and had a young son.

But I worked hard and like lots of my friends -

I used to drink to relax. Only they knew when

to stop. I didn't. And pretty soon - I drank

myself out of my job. I promised my wife I'd

straighten out. But I couldn't. Finally she

took the baby and left me.



The next year was like a nightmare. I was

penniless. I went out on the streets -

panhandled money for liquor. Every time I

sobered up - I swore not to touch another drop.

But if I went a few hours without a drink -

I'd begin to cry like a baby, and tremble

all over. One day after I left the asylum I

met a friend of mine. He took me to the home

of one of his friends. A bunch of men were

sitting around, smoking cigars, telling jokes

- having a great time. But I noticed they

weren't drinking. When Tom told me they'd all

been in the same boat as I was - I couldn't

believe him. But he said, "See that fellow?

He's a doctor. Drank himself out of his

practice. Then he straightened out. Now he's

head of a big hospital." Another big strapping

fellow was a grocery clerk. Another the vice

president of a big corporation. They got

together five years ago. Called themselves

Alcoholics Anonymous. And they'd worked out

a method of recovery. One of their most

important secrets was - helping the other

fellow. Once they began to follow it the

method proved successful and helped others get

on their feet - they found they could stay

away from liquor.



Gradually - those men helped me back to life.

I stopped drinking. Found courage to face life

once again. Today I've got a job - and I'm

going to climb back to success. Recently we

wrote a book called "Alcoholics Anonymous".

It tells precisely how we all came back from

a living death. Working on that book made me

realize how much other people had suffered -

how they'd gone through the same thing I did.

That's why I wanted to come on this program.

I wanted to tell people who are going through

that torment - if they sincerely want to,

they can come back. Take their place in

society once again!



(APPLAUSE)

(MUSIC)



This broadcast was made at a time when A.A. and

the Big Book effort was $10,000 in debt, with

only $500 left in the bank...



Morgan Ryan, the good-looking Irishman who had

taken the book to the Catholic Committee on

Publication, had been a good ad man. He said

that he knew Gabriel Heatter. "Gabriel is

putting on these 3 minute heart-to-heart

programs on the radio. I'll get an interview

with him and maybe he'll interview me on the

radio about all this."



And the REST OF THE STORY is history in "AA

History And How The Big Book Was Put Together"

- A Talk By Bill Wilson - Fort Worth, Texas -

1954


0 -1 0 0
5054 corafinch
Re: Early four step AA program ??? Early four step AA program ??? 6/4/2008 7:53:00 AM


<most of message snipped>

>

> There is also a mention of "four steps" in

> Message #2788 from <tcumming@...>

> (tcumming at nc.rr.com), where it says:

>

> From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book

> story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:

>

> "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be

> taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.

> First: Have a real desire to quit.

> Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)

> Third: Ask for His ever present help.

> Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."

>

> [That mans story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &

> 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to

> He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4

> Steps.]

>

These are quite close to the 5 C's of the

Oxford Group, so it would make sense that they

might have been used by the "alcohol squad."

Keep in mind that the 5 C's were steps

suggested for the life-changer to follow, the

person who is trying to lead someone else to

become a "changed" person. "Changed" roughly

correlates with AA's "sobriety," and except

for the fact that the alcoholic version was

directed to the alcoholic himself, the

correlation is pretty good. Here they are.

I'll stick with the male pronoun, it's easier

and closer to the original:



The first C was "Confidence," developing the

person's trust in the life-changer. This of

course would not apply if the steps were

expressed as something done directly by the

person who needed to change.



The second was "Confession," not to be confused

with the more elaborate confession of a

practicing grouper. In the context of the

5 C's, confession meant getting the person to

admit that there was something he felt bad

about. In practice, this could be something

major but often was something minor--anything

would do.



The third, "Conviction" (of sin), meant

bringing the person to the realization that

what he felt bad about was truly in the nature

of sin, not just a bad habit but a spiritual

problem.



The fourth, "Conversion," was the actual

surrender and acceptance of God's help.



The fifth C, "Continuance." involved guidance,

prayer, group and individual confession, etc.

as practiced by the OG.



The steps listed by the author of The Car

Smasher follow the pattern of the five C's,

without the "Confidence" step: 1) Admission

of a problem, 2) Acceptance that it is not

under one's control, 3) Surrender, 4) Followup.


0 -1 0 0
5055 Edie Stanger
Which 1st ed. Big Book stories were ghostwritten? Which 1st ed. Big Book stories were ghostwritten? 6/8/2008 12:34:00 PM


I just read in the justloveaudio.com

transcription:



"Meanwhile, we set drunks up to write their

stories or we had newspaper people to write

the stories for them to go in the back of

the book."



Does anyone know which stories were ghost-

written? Has there been a previous thread

on the subject?



Edie S.


0 -1 0 0
5056 jenny andrews
Re: Anonymity statement Anonymity statement 6/7/2008 3:51:00 AM


The words "Who you see here, what you hear

here, when you leave here, let it stay here"

are printed on a yellow card issued by the UK

General Service office in York. The card

appears on tables at AA grops all over the

UK, and when winding up meetings secretaries

often say, "Please remember the Yellow Card

(reciting the words). Let's make this a safe

place to share."



Travers C., Bristol AA old-timer, thought the

message was somewhat sanctimonious. I recall

him saying, "If we mean, 'Don't gossip,' why

not say so."



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>

(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)



It's not a far stretch . . . using monkeys . . .

Alcohol made monkeys out of most of us. And

when we got sober, we "got the monkey off our

backs" . . .



- - - -



From: "Bob McK." <bobnotgod2@att.net>

(bobnotgod2 at att.net)



Interestingly, the three monkeys ("hear no

evil, see no evil, speak no evil") date back

to Japan in the 1600s and possibly before.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys



[The three monkeys are Mizaru, covering his

eyes, who sees no evil; Kikazaru, covering

his ears, who hears no evil; and Iwazaru,

covering his mouth, who speaks no evil.]



- - - -



From: charles Knapp <cdknapp@pacbell.net>

(cdknapp at pacbell.net)



Hello again,



Yes here is another site that mentions the

slogan. It is about half way in the article.





http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Aug-06-Sat-2005/news/26902506.html



The History Channel did a special on Oak Ridge

and I saved a video clip from the show about

this slogan. I will see if I can find it in

one of my computers and post it online. If I

do I will post a link in History Lovers.



Charles from California


0 -1 0 0
5057 shakey1aa
fabric of AA Big Books fabric of AA Big Books 6/12/2008 10:38:00 PM


Does any one know the composition or type of

fabrics used in the 4 editions of the Big Book?



Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA


0 -1 0 0
5058 jax760
Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4 times? Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4 times? 6/12/2008 11:40:00 AM


It seems as though there is some confusion

based on my study of the literature and other

biographies of Bill.



Can someone answer definitively how many times

and when was Bill hospitalized at Towns?



Was it three times or four times?



Thanks


0 -1 0 0
5059 PR_Magoo
Re: Anonymity statement Anonymity statement 6/10/2008 12:07:00 PM


I found an Oak Ridge web site that had a

picture of an old billboard sign from the

early 1940's that gave the early atomic

research facility version of what later

became the AA and Al-Anon slogan, with a

picture of the three monkeys on it:



What you see here,

What you do here,

What you hear here,

When you leave here,

Let it stay here.



http://oakridgevisitor.com/history/SecretTown-security.html


0 -1 0 0
5060 pauguspass
Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones 6/11/2008 1:35:00 PM


Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last

Friday and made part of the picnic on Saturday.

It's a tremendously moving place to visit.



There was a wonderful prayer typed out and

lying on the bed in the upstairs bedroom. It

was said to be a prayer Bill used in the

mornings. I didn't transcribe it because I

figured I could find it. But either I'm not

looking at the right things, or it's not

readily available.



Does anyone have this prayer or can you point

to where it may be? And what source suggests

it was his morning prayer?



Thanks.



George Cleveland



- - - -



From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend):



The following prayer appears at

http://hindsfoot.org/funeral1.html



Was this the one you were looking for? It

comes from Pass It On, page 265.



BILL & LOIS'S PRAYER



Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,

that we are from everlasting to everlasting.



Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions

to us of light, of love, and of service.

May we find and do Thy will

in good strength, in good cheer today.



May Thy ever-present grace be discovered

by family and friends

-- those here and those beyond --

by our Societies throughout the world,

by men and women everywhere,

and among those who must lead

in these troubled times.



Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,

all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.

Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.



Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us

a destiny passing through Thy many mansions,

ever in more discovery of Thee

and in no separation between ourselves.


0 -1 0 0
5061 Chris Budnick
RE: Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4 times? Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4 times? 6/13/2008 11:57:00 PM


I had gone back and forth on this issue also.



Pass It On indicates four admissions:



p. 100 "In the autumn of 1933, when Bill found

himself in Towns Hospital for the first time."



p. 106 "Bill wound up in Towns for a second

time."



p. 108 "By midsummer 1934, he was back in

Towns."



p. 119 - 120 These pages describe Bill's

return to Towns Hospital on December 11, 1934.



I don't have Robert Thomsen's book in front

of me, but I have a notation to myself to see

page 174.



I think what finally swayed me is listening

to Bill's talk on the day that Dr. Bob died

(11/16/1950). 4 minutes and 45 seconds into

the recording Bill states "This was my fourth

visit, third time this year." However, I

think he misspeaks here because he is talking

his admission where Dr. Silkworth suggested to

Lois that he commit Bill to the Rockland State

Hospital. But the fact that he says "fourth

visit" leads me to believe that his how many

admissions he had.



Also see previous posts: #3330 and #4224



I'm sure other people have studied this and

could share input as well.



Chris


0 -1 0 0
5062 Russ Stewart
RE: Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones 6/13/2008 11:36:00 PM


"Pass It On" pages 264 & 265



<<During the days of the Oxford Group meetings,

Bill and Lois Wilson had started the practice

of holding a "quiet time" each morning ....

Lois described these quiet times: "They'd

last 15 minutes or so. We were in bed and

we'd get up and I'd make coffee and we'd have

coffee in bed, and then we'd say a prayer

together .... This is the prayer composed by

Bill and recited by the Wilson's at these

times:



"Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art, that

we are from everlasting to everlasting.

Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy bene-

factions to us of light, and of service.

May we find and do Thy will in good strength,

in good cheer today. May Thy ever-present

grace be discovered by family and friends --

those here and those beyond -- by our

Societies throughout the world, by men and

women everywhere, and among those who must

lead in these troubled times. Oh Lord, we

know Thee to be all wonder, all beauty, all

glory, all power, all love. Indeed, Thou

are everlasting love. Accordingly, Thou has

fashioned for us a destiny passing through

Thy many mansions, ever in more discovery of

Thee and in no separation between ourselves.">>



"Pass It On," page 274 note 2:



<<Lois, who remained deeply in love with Bill

for her entire adult life, said, years after

his death: "That business about no separation

between ourselves is something that I cherish.">>



- - - -



Original message no. 5060 was from

George Cleveland <pauguspass@yahoo.com>

(pauguspass at yahoo.com)



Had a wonderful visit at Stepping Stones last

Friday .... There was a wonderful prayer typed

out and lying on the bed in the upstairs

bedroom. It was said to be a prayer Bill used

in the mornings .... what source suggests

it was his morning prayer?



- - - -



ANY ECHOES HERE OF SWEDENBORGIAN LITURGY?



From: Baileygc23@aol.com

(Baileygc23 at aol.com)



Has this prayer anything to do with

Swedenborgianism?


0 -1 0 0
5063 george cleveland
Re: Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones 6/15/2008 12:29:00 PM


While this is a fabulous prayer, it's not as

I recall. What stood out about the prayer I

saw at Stepping Stones was the term "Father of

Lights". Which is not to say that a word or

two may have changed. The tone is very similar.



I've written to Stepping Stones and asked them

if there is a copy.



THANK YOU, as always.



George



- - - -



Message #5060



The prayer given in Pass It On, page 265:



BILL & LOIS'S PRAYER



Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,

that we are from everlasting to everlasting.



Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions

to us of light, of love, and of service.

May we find and do Thy will

in good strength, in good cheer today.



May Thy ever-present grace be discovered

by family and friends

-- those here and those beyond --

by our Societies throughout the world,

by men and women everywhere,

and among those who must lead

in these troubled times.



Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,

all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.

Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.



Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us

a destiny passing through Thy many mansions,

ever in more discovery of Thee

and in no separation between ourselves.


0 -1 0 0
5064 Hugh M
Re: Anonymity statement Anonymity statement 6/14/2008 2:28:00 AM


A few months ago, the local R.C.M.P. entered

the Hells Angels clubhouse in Nanaimo, British

Columbia with a search warrant. In a report,

the police told of finding a sign bearing that

slogan in one of the rooms. It is obvious that

we have no corner on the concept.



Unless some Al-Anon group might have been

meeting in the biker facility :-)


0 -1 0 0
5065 juan.aa98
Sources that help put the Big Book together Sources that help put the Big Book together 6/11/2008 7:21:00 PM


Allen, James - As A Man Thinketh



Baylor, Courtenay - Remaking a Man



Begbie, Harold - Twice-Born Men, 1909



Begbie, Harold - Souls in Action, 1911



Begbie, Harold - The Ordinary Man, 1915



Bible:

The Sermon on the Mount

The Lord's Prayer

The Book of James

The 13th Chapter of First Corinthians



Browne, Lewis - This Believing World



Browne, Lewis - The Conversion Experience



Chambers, O. - My Utmost For His Highest



Clark, Glenn - Will Lift Up Mine Eyes



Drummond, Henry - The Greatest Thing in the World



Fox, Emmet - The Sermon on the Mount



Freud, Sigmund - A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis



James, William - The Varieties of Religious Experience



Kitchen, V.C. - I Was a Pagan



Peabody, R.R. - The Common Sense of Drinking



Russell, A.J. - For Sinners Only



Troward, Thomas - The Edinburgh Lectures on Mental Science



The Upper Room - a Methodist periodical



Walter, H.A. - Soul Surgery



This is the list that was provided for me

from A.A. Archives. Anyone know of more

books? Where else can I look?


0 -1 0 0
5066 Arthur Sheehan
RE: Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4 times? Bill W. in Towns Hospital 3 or 4 times? 6/16/2008 11:33:00 AM


Good research Chris



From what I've gleaned from past research and

recorded in a timeline history document, Bill W

had 4 admissions to Towns Hospital. Info and

source references are below:



AACOA - AA Comes of Age, AAWS

BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years, autobiography

BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan

BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen

GB - Getting Better Inside AA by Nan Robertson

LOH - Language of the Heart, AA Grapevine

LR - Lois Remembers, by Lois Wilson

NG - Not God, by Ernest Kurtz

NW - New Wine, by Mel B

PIO - Pass It On, AAWS

RAA - The Roots of AA, by Bill Pittman



1933 Autumn, Bill W was quite literally

drinking himself to death. In desperation,

his wife Lois, now earning $22.50 a week at

Macy's ($350 today) turned to her brother-

in-law Dr Leonard V Strong, who arranged and

paid for, Bill W's first admission to Towns

Hospital. Bill was subjected to the "belladonna

cure." The regimen primarily involved "purging

and puking" aided by, among other things,

castor oil. Belladonna, a hallucinogen, was

used to ease the symptoms of alcohol withdrawal.

Dr Strong was married to Bill's sister Dorothy.

(PIO 98-101, LR 85, BW-40 104, NG 14-15, 310,

BW-FH 50, BW-RT 174)



1934 July (?), Bill W's second admission to

Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V

Strong). Bill met Dr Silkworth for the first

time. Silkworth explained the obsession and

allergy of alcoholism but Bill started drinking

again almost immediately upon discharge. Bill

was unemployable, $50,000 in debt ($757,000

today) suicidal and drinking around the clock.

(AACOA 52, PIO 106-108, BW-40 114-117, NG 15,

310, BW-FH 50-55)



1934 September 17, Bill W's third admission

to Towns Hospital (again paid by Dr Leonard V.

Strong). Dr Silkworth pronounced Bill as

hopeless and informed Lois that Bill would

likely have to be committed. Bill left the

hospital a deeply frightened man and sheer

terror kept him sober. He found a little work

on Wall St, which began to restore his badly

shattered confidence. (PIO 106-109, LR 87,

AACOA vii, 56, BW-RT 176-177, NG 15, 310,

BW-FH 4-5, 54-55)



1934 December 11, Bill W (age 39) decided to

go back to Towns Hospital and had his last

drink (four bottles of beer purchased on the

way). He got financial help from his mother,

Emily, for the hospital bill. (AACOA 61-62,

LOH 197, RAA 152, NG 19, 311, NW 23, PIO

119-120, GB 31).



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
5067 jlobdell54
The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob Died 11/16/1950 The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob Died 11/16/1950 6/16/2008 9:24:00 AM


The only recording I know of bearing this

title (or a variant of it) is a reenactment

created by Bill McN, who will btw be present

at the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon

Pennsylvania on June 21, speaking on

"Dramatizing AA History" -- and as Chris will

be there, and if this is the talk he's referring

to, he'll be able to check Bill's sources

with him.


0 -1 0 0
5068 terry walton
Re: Early four step AA program ??? Early four step AA program ??? 6/17/2008 8:36:00 AM


From "terry walton" <twalton@3gcinc.com>

(twalton at 3gcinc.com)



The Four steps to be taken?



> From the end of a 1st edition of the Big Book

> story titled THE CAR SMASHER, page 369:

>

> "There are, it seems to me, four steps to be

> taken by one who is a victim of alcoholism.

> First: Have a real desire to quit.

> Second: Admit you can't. (This is hardest.)

> Third: Ask for His ever present help.

> Fourth: Accept and acknowledge this help."

>

> [That man's story is also on pg 193 of 2nd &

> 3rd ed, but it was rewritten and renamed to

> He Had to Be Shown, and does not have the 4

> Steps.]



I believe we have the precursor to these four

items in the story of AA Number 3 (2nd, 3rd,

and 4th edits.).



Bill W. and Dr. Bob ask Bill D. the same four

questions. I added the numbers for clarity's

sake. In Bill D's story they were not

referred to as "steps," simply questions.

To me the word "steps" seems to imply a bigger

or larger than life search as in searching

for the holy grail of "who started the term

"steps?"



I would see their "steps" as a list of actions

which they performed: "the next action is ..."

"we took action" etc. "the directions of the

actions are ..."



[1] They said to me, "Do you want to quit

drinking?



[2] The next thing they wanted to know was

if I thought I could quit of my own accord,

without any help, if I could just walk out

of the hospital and never take another drink.



[3] The next question, they wanted to know

was if I believed in a Higher Power.



[4] The next thing they wanted to know was

would I be willing to go to this Higher Power

and ask for help, calmly and without any

reservations.



- - - -



From: <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>

(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)



The book "What is the Oxford Group"

http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/what-is-the-oxford-group.pdf

says the order is Sharing, Surrender,

Restitution and Guidance. This is in accordance

with the 5Cs in the book Soul Surgery, since

Confidence and Confession are the Sharing step.



Conviction is Surrender, where after the

self-realization that comes from the sharing,

one decides to surrender one's sins, which

ultimately is one's self-centeredness

(according to the book).



This view of Surrender coming AFTER the Sharing

Step seems to have been followed in the program

at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron, Ohio. In a

paper published by Sr. Ignatia in 1951 about

their 5-Day hospital program, she writes that

Day 3 was the day of inventory, where the alky

admits to God, himself, & another all his

problems. After that she writes: "With self

knowledge, he is asked to admit the truth:

'I am an alcoholic.'" (See the article by Mary

C Darrah in Employee Assistance Quarterly,

Vol 1, No.1 Fall 1985)



Is this a claim that the 1st Step (Surrender)

COMES AFTER the 5th Step (Sharing) instead of

PRECEDING it?



Thanks for your help.



Much Love



Rajiv


0 -1 0 0
5069 John Lee
Re: Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones Bill Wilson''s morning prayer---Stepping Stones 6/17/2008 1:33:00 PM


"Father of Light" is found on page 14 of

"Bill's Story," Chapter 1 of Big Book. It's

a misquote from the Epistle of St. James 1:17,

which refers to the "Father of Lights."



The reference to "many mansions" likely came

from John 14:2, "in my Father's house are

many mansions."



Bill used the "many mansions" language often.



john lee

pittsburgh



- - - -



From: george cleveland <pauguspass@yahoo.com>

(pauguspass at yahoo.com)



While this is a fabulous prayer, it's not as

I recall. What stood out about the prayer I

saw at Stepping Stones was the term "Father of

Lights".



- - - -



Message #5060



The prayer given in Pass It On, page 265:



BILL AND LOIS'S PRAYER



Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,

that we are from everlasting to everlasting.



Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions

to us of light, of love, and of service.

May we find and do Thy will

in good strength, in good cheer today.



May Thy ever-present grace be discovered

by family and friends

-- those here and those beyond --

by our Societies throughout the world,

by men and women everywhere,

and among those who must lead

in these troubled times.



Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,

all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.

Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.



Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us

a destiny passing through Thy many mansions,

ever in more discovery of Thee

and in no separation between ourselves.


0 -1 0 0
5070 david l
Re: The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob Died 11/16/1950 The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob Died 11/16/1950 6/18/2008 1:37:00 PM


I have a CD given to me by my sponsor of

Bill's talk the night Dr. Bob died.



My email address is: <heart943@yahoo.com>

(heart943 at yahoo.com)



- - - -



From: "Jim S." <james.scarpine@verizon.net>

(james.scarpine at verizon.net)



See messages #654,#655,656 and 743. The last

is the actor's "disclaimer," justifying his

fictionalization of AA's history.



Jim S.



- - - -



jlobdell54 <jlobdell54@hotmail.com> wrote:



The only recording I know of bearing this

title (or a variant of it) is a reenactment

created by Bill McN, who will btw be present

at the History & Archives Gathering in Lebanon

Pennsylvania on June 21, speaking on

"Dramatizing AA History" -- and as Chris will

be there, and if this is the talk he's referring

to, he'll be able to check Bill's sources

with him.


0 -1 0 0
5071 Jim Hoffman
Re: The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob Died 11/16/1950 The Talk Bill Gave the Night Dr Bob Died 11/16/1950 6/20/2008 11:05:00 PM


Hi,



My wife and I run a recording business here

in Largo, Fl (between Clearwater and St. Pete).



We often get someone asking us if we heard

about a CD or tape of a talk Bill made at the

Kip's Bay Group on the night Dr. Bob died.

Lots of times they will have the tape or CD

with them and wish to share it with us.



We always feel a little bad when we have to

tell them it is an actor and it is just a play

he has written and performed. Usually we will

play a real recording of Bill and the person

will hear right away that the voices are

different.



We have never heard a real recording of Bill

speaking on the night Dr. Bob died. The easiest

way to check would be to compare the voice

against a CD you know is one of Bill. GSO makes

a copy of Bill talking about the Traditions

and you should be able to pick one up at your

Intergroup Office.



Good Luck



Jim Hoffman

Vision Audio



727/539/0101 (Office)



727/581/3293 (Home)



727/251/3188 (Cell)



visionaudio@verizon.net



Jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com

(Jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)



- - - -



Original message from: david l

<heart943@yahoo.com>

(heart943 at yahoo.com)



I have a CD given to me by my sponsor of

Bill's talk the night Dr. Bob died.



My email address is: <heart943@yahoo.com>

(heart943 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
5072 Lee Nickerson
14th printing circus jacket 14th printing circus jacket 6/22/2008 11:54:00 AM


Does an original circus jacket for the 14th

printing say "14th printing" on it?



Was the publisher at that time (1951) Works

Publishing or Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing

Inc.?



I know that they are printing reproductions

and I want to know if my jacket is original?

It clearly looks old although in good

condition???


0 -1 0 0
5073 Li Lightfoot
Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking? Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking? 6/22/2008 8:06:00 PM


Does anyone know if there are any recordings

of Dr. Bob available to the public?



Thanks,



Li


0 -1 0 0
5074 Arthur Sheehan
The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" 6/22/2008 8:21:00 PM


Hi Lee



The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc"

to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc"

occurred in 1953.



The 12&12 was the first book distributed under

the new publishing name.



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



From: Hal Lackey <mudshark6178@yahoo.com>

(mudshark6178 at yahoo.com)



Can't say about the dustcover. My 14th

printing says Works Publishing.



- - - -



ORIGINAL MESSAGE from: "Lee Nickerson"

<snowlily@megalink.net> (snowlily at megalink.net)



14th PRINTING CIRCUS JACKET



Was the publisher at that time (1951) Works

Publishing or Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing

Inc.?


0 -1 0 0
5075 schaberg43
Re: 14th printing circus jacket 14th printing circus jacket 6/23/2008 8:40:00 AM


The dust jacket for the 14th printing of

the 1st edition reads: "Fourteenth Printing"

on lower half of the spine of the dust

jacket. Reproductions typically duplicate

this accurately.



The 14th printing was published by Works

Publishing Inc.



Old Bill



- - - -



From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



Others may be in a better position to answer

this question than I, but here goes.



I don't have a 14th printing but I do have

a 13th with an original DJ backed up by a

facsimile.



There are two differences that jump out at me.

"Thirteenth Printing" is printed at the top

of the front flap of the original but is

missing from the facsimile. The red dot on

the spine of the original seems to be smaller

than that on the facsimile.



It seems to me that the font used for the

facsimile has "fatter" letters than the

original, but that may be my imagination

at work.



There may be other differences, but I will

leave it to the more observant to point them

out.



I have facsimile DJs on my other three First

Editions. None of them have the printing

number on the front flap.



I hope this helps.



Tommy in Baton Rouge



P.S. After writing this, I came across a

listing for a 1/16th which showed the DJ and

it has the printing number on the front flap.



There is a 1st/16th listed on eBay, item

#300234353426. It has an original DJ and

shows "Sixteenth Printing" on the front flap.

Another suggestion that inclusion of the

printing number in this location is an indi-

cation that the DJ is original and not a

facsimile.



Tommy



- - - -



From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com

(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)



Hi Lee,



The publisher of the 14th was Works Publishing

and the DJ should say the same and have 14th

on the spine and on the top of the front fly

page.



You can tell the replicas because they usually

have a lighter yellow and the printing # on

the spine only. This apart from apparent

less wear and tear.



I have a 4th,6th ,15th & 16th with originals,

my other ones have replicas.



Regards Dudley


0 -1 0 0
5076 srgntbilko
Re: The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" 6/22/2008 3:20:00 PM


My 11th printing of the Big Book says copyright

by Works -- at the bottom of the page it says

"By the Cornwall Press Inc. Cornwall, NY --

Printed in the United States of America."



I don't know the business so I don't know what

that all means.



Sarge



- - - -



From the moderator: Cornwall Press was the

printer; they were the ones who actually

printed the books on their printing presses.



See Messages 5016, 4802, 4295, 4291, 3937,

3677, 3617, 3292, 3207, 3117, etc.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
5077 jays5279
100th Anniversary of Buchmans awakening 100th Anniversary of Buchmans awakening 6/25/2008 2:06:00 AM


Today (this Friday, June 27, 2008) it is

100 years.



Jay Stinnett

310/874/2341



- - - -



The Apology That Launched a Million Amends



June 27th, 2008, will mark the 100th

anniversary of Frank Buchman's Spiritual

Awakening – one that directly linked him

to the cofounders of AA



He gave everything he had to establishing a

shelter for homeless boys in the slums of

Philadelphia. The shelters success surpassed

his budget and the six-member board of

directors insisted that he cut the amount of

food being given to his charges. He quit

instead of cutting back. Resentment consumed

him. His family despaired that he might not

come to his senses. His work was destroyed by

what he saw as the shortsightedness of others.

His health was well past the breaking point.



"Everywhere I went, I took me with me," he

later said. During a trip to recuperate in

Europe, he exhausted the funds his father gave

him and existed on the kindness of his family

and the generosity of acquaintances. Tired and

dejected he went to an Evangelical Conference

in Keswick, England, hoping to connect with

F.B. Meyer, a famous minister he knew, for

spiritual help. Meyer was not in attendance;

another plan gone awry.



June 27, 1908, thirty year-old Frank Buchman,

a Pennsylvanian Lutheran minister, walked into

an afternoon service with 17 other people to

hear Jessie Penn Lewis preach on the cross of

Christ. And then it happened.



As Buchman sat in that Chapel, "There was a

moment of spiritual peak of what God could do

for me. I was made a new man. My hatred was

gone ... I knew I had to write six letters to

those men I hated."



"I am writing," declared Buchman, "to tell you

that I have harbored an unkind feeling toward

you -- at times I conquered it but it always

came back. Our views may differ but as

brothers we must love. I write to ask your

forgiveness and to assure that I love you and

trust by God's grace I shall never more speak

unkindly or disparagingly of you."



Those letters of amends spawned a revolution

in Frank Buchman, a revolution that led to the

birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.



That evening, Frank was introduced to a young

Cambridge man, who upon hearing Buchman's tale

of moral regeneration made a decision to change

his own life. As Buchman described it, "This

was the first fellow who I knew that I had

ever brought face to face with that central

experience." For the next half century Buchman

dedicated his life to demonstrating that an

experience of God was available to anyone at

any time, regardless of race, religion, class

or nationality.



From England, Frank returned to the United

States where he went to work as the YMCA

director at Penn State University. There he

had a profound effect on campus life, due in

part to the conversion of the campus bootlegger,

who during a trip to Toronto with Frank and a

group of students from Penn State, made a

decision to change his life. After having Frank

help him by writing an amends letter to his

wife, the bootlegger never drank again and

went around the world with Frank talking about

his change.



Frank Buchman described the four years that he

spent at Penn State as the laboratory in which

he developed a practical program of action and

learned how to have honest conversations that

led people to make decisions to change their

lives.



The formula he developed was:



1. The sharing of our sins and temptations

with another Christian life given to God, and

to use sharing as witness to help others, still

unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge their

sins.



2. Surrender of our life, past, present, and

future, into God's keeping and direction.



3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged

directly or indirectly.



4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's

guidance and carrying it out in everything we

do or say, great or small.



Sound familiar?



The application of this course of action

revolutionized the spiritual life of the

campus, and its success brought Christian

evangelists from all over the world to find

out what was happening on a backwater

campus that had been paralyzed by strife.



After Penn State, Frank went to China in 1917

where an honest conversation with a young

Sam Shoemaker helped Sam to tell him, "I have

been a pious fraud, pretending to serve God

but actually keeping all the trump cards in

my own hands. Now I've told Him how sorry I am,

and I trust you'll forgive me for harboring

ill will against you. This sprang up the moment

you used that word sin!"



Buchman said that he freely forgave him. "Now

what's the next step?" Shoemaker asked. The

next step was making amends to Sam's Bible

study class. The trouble was, Shoemaker told

his Chinese students, he disliked China. That

admission produced such a profound spiritual

experience in Shoemaker that it led to his

working closely with Buchman for the next

twenty-one years and brought the revolution

of "First Century Christianity" (later known

as the Oxford Group) to people worldwide.



The message of personal revolution was

transmitted by one "informed Christian" sharing

with another and by inviting people to "house

parties." If you have ever attended an AA

convention or round up you have experienced an

Oxford Group house party. Speakers were brought

in from a variety of places to share their

experience, strength and hope in both large

speaker meetings and small special interest

meetings. Men would tell their stories in

men's meetings; women in women's; there were

even forums for drug addicts, overeaters, and

drunks. At these gatherings, both speakers

and experienced members would be available

for "personal interviews" where sharing and

surrender could take place. Then people would

be encouraged to make restitution and have a

daily "quiet time" to receive inspiration on

how to conduct their lives.



When he was pressed for a definition of sin,

Buchman said, "What is a sin for one person may

not be a sin for another. The true definition

of sin is that it is something that separates

you from God or from your fellows."



In 1922, Jim Newton, a young salesman with a

taste for fast living, followed a group of

attractive young women into a hotel ballroom

thinking they were going to a dance. To his

dismay he found himself in an Oxford Group

house party at the Toy Town Tavern in

Winchengton, Massachusetts, where he heard

a message that changed his life. Buchman

referred Newton to Shoemaker who helped Newton

take stock of his life, surrender, make

restitution, and start to live a "guided life."

If you wish to know the Oxford Group technique

of guidance read pages 85-87 in the book

Alcoholics Anonymous.



A few years later, Jim Newton was trying to

help Bud F., the alcoholic son of his employer,

Harvey F., to change. Unable to help his

friend, Jim introduced Bud to his mentor,

Samuel Shoemaker. Sam, who had a remarkable

gift bringing people to make a decision, went

through the process with Bud who immediately

lost his obsession to drink, made amends to

his father and wife, and returned to the good

graces of his family.



Harvey F. was so impressed with the change in

his son that he convinced his fellow industri-

alists in Akron, Ohio, to help underwrite an

Oxford Group house party held in January 1933

at the Mayflower Hotel. Buchman and his team

were welcomed by the Rev. Walter Tunks, a

close friend of the F. family; also in

attendance were Henrietta Seiberling and

T. Henry and Clarace Williams who were to

become the founders of the West Hills meeting

of the Oxford Group in Akron.



Also in 1933, Shoemaker's ministry at Calvary

Church in New York City's Gramercy Park was

a hub of Oxford Group activity. There were

Oxford Group meetings held three times a week

at Calvary Church where people shared the

life changes they had discovered from applying

the Oxford Group principles. He also founded

the Calvary Mission, which was a hostel for

indigent alcoholic men.



Many important families had ties to this

Calvary Church, among them the H. family whose

eldest son Rowland was described by Bill W.

as "a business man who had ability, good

sense and high character ... who had

floundered from one sanitarium to another."

Rowland had returned from Europe after another

attempt to get his life in order after consult-

ing with Dr. Carl Jung. Rowland was drinking

and going to Oxford Group meetings at Calvary

Church. Among the people whom he met at

Calvary was Vic Kitchen, author of I Was a

Pagan (published in 1934), which described

his release from alcoholism, drug addiction,

and "anything that gave me pleasure, power

or applause" in the Oxford Group. While on a

business trip to Detroit, Rowland read the

book, identified at depth, and as Shoemaker

said, "had a change right there on the train."

Rowland stopped drinking, reconciled with

his family, made restitution for questionable

business dealings, became active with the

Oxford Group businessmen's team, spoke at

meetings and encouraged others to find what

he had found.



One of the many people Rowland touched was an

old childhood friend, Edwin 'Ebby' T., who was

about to be locked up as a chronic inebriate.

Rowland, whose alcohol problem was well known,

convinced the judge to release Ebby into his

care. Two weeks later, Ebby was speaking at

Oxford Group meetings around Vermont, and after

a couple of weeks with Rowland (who had all of

six months in the group), the freshly sober

Ebby moved into Calvary Mission in New York

City and became active there.



Sober six weeks, Ebby was inspired to find

another old school friend, Bill W., who was

known to be in awful shape. Bill could not get

the change in Ebby out of his mind for he knew

his friend was a hopeless drunk like himself,

yet was sober. A few days after that, Bill

went to see Ebby at the Calvary Mission, gave

an impassioned, albeit drunken testimony from

the podium and soon after landed in Townes

Hospital. Ebby visited him there and

reacquainted Bill with the steps of the

Oxford Group whereupon Bill had his profound

white light experience, lost his compulsion to

drink and was seized with a desire to pass on

his experience to others.



When Bill was released, he and Lois immediately

started attending Oxford Group meetings at

Calvary Church and had frequent contact with

Sam Shoemaker. Lois said that they went to a

minimum of three meetings a week and attended

house parties during the first three years of

Bill's sobriety.



Six months after sobering up, Bill went to

Akron, Ohio, on a business venture that failed.

When he found himself about to enter the bar

at the same Mayflower Hotel where the Oxford

Group had met, he started searching for an to

help. That moment of desperation led him to

the Rev. Walter Tunks and ultimately to

Henrietta Seiberling who knew just the man.



A local proctologist, who thought he was a

closet drinker, had been attending the West

Hill Oxford Group meeting for two years with

his wife, his problem becoming progressively

worse. The Doctor later described his

impression of the West Hills Group, "I was

thrown in with a crowd of people ....

I sensed that they had something I did not

have, from which I might readily profit. I

learned that it was something of a spiritual

nature, which did not appeal to me very much,

but I thought it could do no harm."



Bill W. met with Bob S. (lovingly referred to

as Dr. Bob) on Mother's Day 1935. Bob stopped

drinking abruptly. Though he accepted Bill's

description of alcoholism as a fatal illness

and the Oxford Group steps as the solution,

Bob believed that making restitution to those

he had harmed would destroy his practice and

put his family further at risk.



A short time later, Bob drank again and was

completely demoralized. On the way to perform

a surgery, Bill steadied his friend's hand

with a bottle of beer and a "goofball."

Before entering the hospital, Bob told Bill,

"I am going to go through with it." That

afternoon Bob did not return home. His wife,

Anne, and Bill were filled with dread that

Bob had gone on another binge. When Dr. Bob

returned late that night, he told his

frightened loved ones that he had been making

restitution to people to whom he had been

too afraid to admit his alcoholism. Bob S.

never took another drink.



AA's anniversary is not the day Bill W.

stopped drinking, nor the day that he met

Dr. Bob, but the day that Bob stopped

drinking and made his amends.



From 100 years ago in Keswick, to 73 years ago

in Akron, to this very moment; women and men

are proving the validity of their own personal

spiritual awakening by making amends for their

past wrongs, making restitution and rectifying

their errors.



Frank Buchman's metamorphosis was remarkable.

He developed a program for personal change

that affected homes and nations. It is a

practical program of action using the four

standards of absolute honesty, purity,

unselfishness and love. Over the past one

hundred years, Buchman's vision has been

transmitted under different names: First

Century Christian Movement, the Oxford Group,

Moral Re-Armament, and since 2001, Initiatives

of Change, which continues to heal the wounds

of history by building trust across the

world's divides.



Without Frank Buchman, those of us in today's

many anonymous programs would have no 12 steps

and no freedom from bondage. His spiritual

awakening and the action that followed indeed

launched a million amends and produced many

millions of transformed lives.


0 -1 0 0
5078 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" 6/27/2008 11:40:00 AM


The Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.

12 and 12 cost $2.75 according to the (blue)

jacket price and was identified as first

edition d-c and copyright 1952-1953.



There was also a 12 and 12 published by

Harper's with a different colored jacket

(greenish blue) also $2.75. It is first

edition also marked d-c and stated published

by Harper & Brothers, New York by arrangement

with Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.

It is copyright 1952-1953 by Alcoholics

Anonymous Publishing Inc.



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, Pa.



- - - -



In a message dated 6/27/2008 3:26:32 P.M.

Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:



The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc"

to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc"

occurred in 1953.



The 12&12 was the first book distributed under

the new publishing name.



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
5079 Byron Bateman
Re: Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking? Recordings of Dr. Bob speaking? 6/26/2008 7:08:00 AM


Li,



There is a cassette tape available from AAWS,

or perhaps, your intergroup office. (Probably

a CD by now) The title is: "Voices of our

Co-Founders." It has both Bill W. and Dr. Bob

on the tape. I have one somewhere and as I

recall it contains two speeches by Dr. Bob,

and three speeches by Bill W.



I can find it and give you specifics if you

would like to email me personally:



"Byron Bateman" <byronbateman@hotmail.com>

(byronbateman at hotmail.com)



It should be widely available through A.A.

sources. The quality of Dr. Bob's speeches

is not very good because the originals were

cut on a wire recorder I was told.



Byron



- - - -



From: barefootbill@optonline.net

(barefootbill at optonline.net)



Please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com

then click on "store"

then click on "Recovery Audio"

then click on "AA"

then do a search by putting in Dr. Bob in the

speaker field.



We have every known talk by Dr. Bob all on

one CD.



Thanks & God bless.



- - - -



From: "jfk92452000" <jfk92452000@yahoo.com>

(jfk92452000 at yahoo.com)



Li, Yes there are several recordings of

Dr. Bob. His last talk at the Cleveland

Convention in 1950 was recorded and is

available from "Nova Tapes by Earl" in

Cross Junction, Virginia. 540/888/4505 or

800/825/0560. I think there is an on-line

site.



These recordings were done originally on spool

and are tough to listen to but the message and

hearing his voice will send chills up your

spine. There are recordings of Bill, Sister

Ignatia , Reverend Sam Shoemaker and Ebby and

many others. They are great because I feel

like I am getting the program right from the

horses mouth. Let me know if you have any

problem contacting Nova.



John F.Kenney



- - - -



From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>

(james.bliss at comcast.net)

Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>

(mikeb384 at verizon.net)

<elg3_79@yahoo.com>

(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

robin@brieftsf.com

(robin at brieftsf.com)



Go to http://www.xa-speakers.org and search

for Dr. Bob.



There are three recordings of Dr. Bob available

for download or listening at:



http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=326



Jim



- - - -



From: "oldsmokef" <oldsmokef@yahoo.com>

(oldsmokef at yahoo.com)

<elg3_79@yahoo.com>

(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

Mike Craven <wahoo126@embarqmail.com>

(wahoo126 at embarqmail.com)

Dave <onemoreday214@yahoo.com>

(onemoreday214 at yahoo.com)



Look here:



http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/speakers.htm



- - - -



From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com



Hi Li,



I have a recording of Bill W. and Dr. Bob

speaking at the "big meeting" in Cleveland

1950. The recording lasts 1.08 hours and is

8.23mb. The format is Real Player and I will

forward it to anyone who wants it.



Olease send your request to my email address:



DudleyDobinson@aol.com

(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)



In fellowship Dudley


0 -1 0 0
5080 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Editors of Second Edition Editors of Second Edition 6/29/2008 9:05:00 PM


In message 5021, Jared Lobdell

<jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

commented:



"I'd be interested to know which was the

story Tom included [in the second edition of

the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or

whose author they didn't like)."



- - - -



Matt D. <mdingle76@yahoo.com>

(mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:



2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."

The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.



Matt D



- - - -



For more about that story, see:



http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

(http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html)



"New Vision for a Sculptor"

Fred (last name unknown)

New York City

p. 426 in 2nd edition



Glenn C., Moderator


0 -1 0 0
5081 Mike Saulle
Re: Editors of Second Edition: New Vision for a Sculptor Editors of Second Edition: New Vision for a Sculptor 6/30/2008 12:41:00 AM


The 2nd edition Big Book story "New Vision

for a Sculptor" can be found in "Experience,

Strength and Hope," the AAWS collection of

all the earlier Big Book stories which are

no longer in the present edition of the Big

Book: see pages 166-178.



- - - -



In message 5021, Jared Lobdell

<jlobdell54@hotmail. com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

commented:



"I'd be interested to know which was the

story Tom included [in the second edition of

the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or

whose author they didn't like)."



- - - -



Matt D. <mdingle76@yahoo. com>

(mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:



2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."

The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.



Matt D



- - - -



For more about that story, see:



http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

(http://silkworth. net/aabiography/ storyauthors. html)



"New Vision for a Sculptor"

Fred (last name unknown)

New York City

p. 426 in 2nd edition


0 -1 0 0
5082 mdingle76
AA History Resource AA History Resource 6/30/2008 10:00:00 AM


Just want the group to be aware of an AA

history resource — 24 Newsletter. 24 Newsletter

is a current version of the 24 Magazine. 24

Magazine was probably best known for the

article, "Gresham's Law and Alcoholics

Anonymous." The author of this article is

Tom P. Jr. Tom P. Jr. is the publisher of

24 Newsletter and contributes an article

about AA each month.



To view June's 24 Newsletter:

http://www.24-communications.com/062008/062008.pdf



For an example of little bits of AA history

-- in June's newsletter Tom Jr. gives the

name of the hymn Marty Mann used to describe

her spiritual experience to Dr. Tiebout

which was, "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms."



Next month's main article is about Dr. Tom M.

(AA 1939) -- in which Bill W. called, "One

of the greatest stories to come out of AA"

-- and is an actual transcript of Bill

telling about Dr. Tom M. Dr. Tom got the AA

Big Book in 1939 while a patient at

Lexington Hospital for drug addicts. Tom M.

wrote to AA, got sober, started one of the

first groups to communicate with headquarters

by mail, and more.



To sign up for a free version of this

newsletter email:



alladdictsanonymous@gmail.com

(alladdictsanonymous at gmail.com)



Please specify if you would like this

resource mailed to your home (and in such

case give us your mailing address) or if

just the online version. Either way this

resource is free!



Matt D.


0 -1 0 0
5083 mdingle76
Re: Editors of Second Edition: Fred G. Editors of Second Edition: Fred G. 6/30/2008 8:52:00 PM


"New Vision for a Sculptor" was controversial

because Fred Ginsberg didn't get officially

sober in AA —- he was ten years dry when he

hit his first AA meeting.



Matt D.



- - - -



> In message 5021, Jared Lobdell

> <jlobdell54@...> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

> commented:

>

> "I'd be interested to know which was the

> story Tom included [in the second edition of

> the Big Book] that some AAs didn't like (or

> whose author they didn't like)."

>

> - - - -

>

> Matt D. <mdingle76@...>

> (mdingle76 at yahoo.com) responds:

>

> 2nd edition story: "New Vision for a Sculptor."

> The author's name was Fred (I think) Ginsberg.

>

> Matt D

>

> - - - -

>

> For more about that story, see:

>

> http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

> (http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html)

>

> "New Vision for a Sculptor"

> Fred (last name unknown)

> New York City

> p. 426 in 2nd edition

>

> Glenn C., Moderator

>


0 -1 0 0
5084 jax760
Spiritual not religious Spiritual not religious 7/4/2008 4:44:00 PM


We frequently hear in the rooms that the AA

program is "spiritual not religious."



I am aware that Bill W. has been quoted as

saying "we are not a religious organization"

and that the Big Book says ... "we have written

a book which we believe to be spiritual as

well as moral."



Does anyone recall seeing in anything in print

attributable to Bill W., the first 100 or in

Conference literature that says "spriritual

not religious"?



Facts only please, no opinions on the topic!



God Bless



John B


0 -1 0 0
5085 Raymond Shepherd
Fifth steps in early AA Fifth steps in early AA 7/5/2008 10:28:00 PM


What was the procedure for early AA members

to take Step Five? The Big Book, the 12x12,

The Little Red Book all suggest people outside

of AA to hear the fifth step.



Some of my protogees question my use of The

Little Red Book because it tells the reader 

'when the right time arrives, arrange an

interview with anyone outside AA who will

be understanding but unaffected by your

narration.' 

 

Does anyone have information regarding hearing

of Fifth steps in early AA prior to 1953?

 

Ray S. 


0 -1 0 0
5086 Alan Spencer
Set A Side Prayer Set A Side Prayer 7/3/2008 12:39:00 AM


Some of the Big Book Studies around the country

use a prayer called the set-a-side prayer; does

anyone have the words?

 

Thanks,

Alan in the Desert


0 -1 0 0
5087 mrpetesplace
Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939) Dr. Tom M. (AA 1939) 7/1/2008 10:33:00 PM


A man named Dr. Tom M. was referred to in

message 5082: "AA History Resource"

from: <mdingle76@yahoo.com>

(mdingle76 at yahoo.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5082



That message said:



<<Next month's main article is about Dr. Tom M.

(AA 1939) -- in which Bill W. called, "One

of the greatest stories to come out of AA"

-- and is an actual transcript of Bill

telling about Dr. Tom M.>>



<<Dr. Tom got the AA Big Book in 1939 while

a patient at Lexington Hospital for drug

addicts. Tom M. wrote to AA, got sober,

started one of the first groups to communicate

with headquarters by mail, and more.>>



- - - -



I would like to know if this Dr. Tom M. is

the same person as the man who is associated

with Shelby, North Carolina. That is where AA

started in this state. This man went to

Lexington, Kentucky. I'm fairly sure that this

is the same person.



I would like to get as much info on Dr.

Tom M. as I can. I'm going to be posting local

history for this area soon at http://aastuff.com/



This would be the doctor that Bill talks about

visiting on his trip south and stopped off at

a little town when he closed his talk with the

Yale Summer lectures on Alcoholism.



The other person to spread AA in North Carolina

was mentioned in AA Comes of Age. He had moved

south and started the Charlotte group which

was the second group listed with the Alcoholic

Foundation (as it was called then, now called

the GSO).



Interesting too was when Dr. Tom corresponded

with NY they were already sharing about how

the AA Program could help addicts as well.



Anyway ... thanks to anyone who can provide this

information or transcripts of correspondence.



Peter F., NC


0 -1 0 0
5088 DalPalGal@aol.com
Re: Set A Side Prayer Set A Side Prayer 7/6/2008 3:26:00 PM


Here ya go, Alan ... from The 12 Step Prayer

Book:



Lord, today help me set aside everything

I think I know about You



Everything I think I know about myself



Everything I think I know about others and



Everything I think I know about my own

recovery



For a new experience in myself



A new experience in my fellows and my own

recovery.


0 -1 0 0
5089 JOHN WIKELIUS
Re: The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" The shift from "Works Publishing" to "AA Publishing" 6/27/2008 4:49:00 PM


A third printing by Harper of the 12&12 ???



- - - -



I have a Harper 12&12 with BK also. I believe

there is a third printing by Harper but I only

saw it one time and did not note the Harper

code for the date of publication. I could kick

myself now.



- - - -



> The Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.

> 12 and 12 cost $2.75 according to the (blue)

> jacket price and was identified as first

> edition d-c and copyright 1952-1953.

>

> There was also a 12 and 12 published by

> Harper's with a different colored jacket

> (greenish blue) also $2.75. It is first

> edition also marked d-c and stated published

> by Harper & Brothers, New York by arrangement

> with Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc.

> It is copyright 1952-1953 by Alcoholics

> Anonymous Publishing Inc.

>

> Yours in Service,

> Shakey Mike Gwirtz

> Phila, Pa.

>

> - - - -

>

> In a message dated 6/27/2008 3:26:32 P.M.

> Eastern Daylight Time, ArtSheehan@msn.com writes:

>

> The name change from "Works Publishing, Inc"

> to "Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing, Inc"

> occurred in 1953.

>

> The 12&12 was the first book distributed under

> the new publishing name.

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
5090 Glenn Chesnut
The start of AA in Cuba (Part 1 of 2) The start of AA in Cuba (Part 1 of 2) 7/6/2008 3:52:00 PM


From: Bruce Kennedy <BruceKen@aol.com>

(BruceKen at aol.com)



The start of AA in Cuba



Summary: (Hulda Lorente's full recollections

appear as an appendix to this document.)



Deteriorating economic conditions following

the collapse of the Soviet Union had brought

alcoholism and other social problems to a

crisis point in Cuba by 1992. On a visit to

Cuba from Miami, a non-alcoholic Cuban friend

of AA, Hulda Lorente, gained an appointment

with a representative of the Central Committee

of the Cuban Communist Party and explained

the AA program. She was advised to contact

a Protestant pastoral couple in Havana,

skilled in working with social problems: Juan

Naranjo and Estela Hernandez.



After several false starts, including the

demurral of several Miami Cuban AA groups when

asked to help, Lorente made contact with the

San Francisco-based organization which had

helped start and spread the Program in the

Soviet Union and elsewhere in Eastern Europe.

Although this organization was unable to extend

its writ to Latin America, one of its members,

Bruce K., learned of Lorente's quest and

contacted her. He then "recruited" six other

AA friends, mostly from the Bay Area, and

together with Lorente, navigated the red tape

of visas and travel arrangements.



The seven American AA members plus Hulda

Lorente arrived in Havana on January xxth, 1993,

were met by the Reverends Hernandez and Naranjo,

and were hosted at their Baptist church for a

week. They arranged for seven local alcoholics

to come to the church for a discussion of

alcoholism, resulting in the first AA meeting,

Jan. 19th, 1993.



Two subsequent meetings were held during the

course of that week. At the last meeting, the

Cuban alcoholics chose a name for their group:

Grupo Sueño ("Dream Group"), based on their

belief that after the Americans left, their

brief experience with sobriety and AA would be

nothing but a dream.



Note: the large Grupo Sueño still meets three

times a week in Havana, and is Cuba's "official"

first group. The original seven Cuban members

all drank, but not before carrying the message

to others. Two of these others, sober since

January 1993, are now the "oldest" Cuban AA

members as of the 10th anniversary.



Five months later, June, 1993, one of the seven

Americans, Arkie K., who speaks Spanish,

returned to Cuba with a Spanish-speaking friend

from La Jolla, Mike C. They traveled with

Naranjo and Hernandez and with a member of the

Grupo Sueño to the inland city of Santa Clara,

where, with the help of another Protestant

pastor, Cuba's second AA group was founded

("Grupo Nueva Vida" -- new life).



Thereafter, the message began to spread rapidly.

A major contributing factor was that Mexican

AA members were now traveling to Cuba in large

numbers, bringing Spanish language AA literature

as well as their experience, strength and hope.

Another factor was the poor state of public

transportation, creating the necessity for

meetings closer to home.


0 -1 0 0
5091 Glenn Chesnut
The start of AA in Cuba (Part 2 of 2) The start of AA in Cuba (Part 2 of 2) 7/6/2008 3:54:00 PM


From: Bruce Kennedy <BruceKen@aol.com>

(BruceKen at aol.com)



Appendix: The beginnings of AA in Cuba --

Hulda Lorente's story



You asked me to tell you the story of how the

message of AA arrived in Cuba in January,

1993. I learned about the program of AA

through a friend about 10 years prior to this

date in Syracuse, NY. I remember we were

eating donuts and drinking coffee after the

Service at Unity Church in Syracuse, and

timidly I came over to say hello. As I

spoke, the first question I was asked by Marti

R. was, where was my English accent from, to

which even more timidly I responded: from Cuba.



I was surprised to see the brightness in her

eyes when she said: from Cuba? How wonderful!

From there on I felt very comfortable as if

I were home. I could speak about Cuba with

someone from the bottom of my heart. I had

found a friend.



From Marti R., I learned that AA was her

spiritual path. What I heard sounded good.

As she explained to me the program I learned

to accept the Twelve Steps as a way of life,

without ever asking myself the reason why it

was so important for her to pass on the message.

I never thought to relate the program of

recovery with alcohol, primarily because I

never saw alcohol anywhere in the ten years

that later on we shared an apartment in

Miami, Florida, and secondly because I became

fascinated with the Twelve Steps. The Twelve

Steps of AA appeared to me to be logical,

rational, well-thought, with universal

characteristics, good for everybody.



I never felt the need to join an Alanon group.

I went to the AA open meetings because I liked

the people. The idea of bringing the message

of AA to Cuba happened on a very hot day of

the month of July in one of my trips to Cuba

to visit my family. I was walking by a park

on Linea Street and saw a man apparently asleep

on a steamily hot sidewalk. I wondered what

was the matter, and people passing by did not

help when realizing the man was drunk. I had

never seen before the effects of alcohol so

closely. I came back home to Miami with the

determination to make the program of recovery

of AA to be known in Cuba.



With the assurance of having by my side the

support of a well seasoned experienced member

of AA, I started talking to my friends from

Cuba in transit in Miami about AA. I sent

books with them, and encouraged them to open

the doors of their hearts and their churches

to meetings for people with problems with

alcohol to get together to study the books.

By doing this, the idea did not go too far.

I thought I should go farther with it.



With the help of my friend and spiritual

mentor, Dr. Adolfo Ham, I was able to get an

interview with Dr. Silvio Platero, a member

of the Office of Religious Affairs of the PCC.

I don't remember the date. I left with Dr.

Platero the blue book of AA and others. I

told him that I wanted to invite a pastor from

Cuba to spend 30 days in Miami to go to as

many AA meetings as possible in Spanish.

The person I was directed to was the Rev.

Juan Francisco Naranjo. The Rev. Naranjo and

his wife, the Rev. Estela Hernandez, were very

active in community services. I talked to them,

and pastor Naranjo accepted my invitation to

come to Miami in spite of telling him that I

did not have any money to pay for his airfare

and expenses. I wrote a letter of invitation

to him, and with that he was able to obtain a

visa to travel from Cuba to the U.S.



When pastor Naranjo returned to Cuba, he

brought with him several books and started AA

group meetings at his church. Even with this,

the idea did not make any progress. Pastor

Naranjo was not an alcoholic. The program of

recovery only works among alcoholics, sharing,

as you say their strengths, hopes and

experiences. The Cubans in Miami did not

take up the challenge thinking that they had

to wait for the revolution to be over before

they could bring the message of AA to Cuba.



One day, commenting about my project of bringing

the message of AA to Cuba with friends from

Peacenet, someone sent me an e-mail from South

Africa, I don't remember her name, who gave me

the phone number and the address of the organi-

zation based in San Francisco, CA, USA,

"Creating A Sober World". Without waiting

long, Bruce K, their coordinator, and I

started planning a trip to Cuba with members

of this organization. Bruce K called the

Department of State, and there was no need to

apply for a special license for the initial

group of 6 people to travel to Cuba. We were

received by the Rev. Juan Francisco Naranjo

and Estela Hernandez at the Havana airport

with free visas. We stayed with them, they

provided us with a meeting room, took care of

the details of a marvelous program of

activities in Cuba that included visits to

hospitals and places of treatment for

alcoholism. Thus, this is how the first AA

group "Sueño" started in Cuba at the "William

Carey" Baptist Church in January, 1993. I

remember bringing Julio to the meeting twice

by the hand, and twice he was asked to come

back sober. There was another person in the

meeting telling his best friend how bad was

his drinking habits, and with that person the

first group of Alanon started in Cuba. The

rest of the story has been written in a report

by Bruce K, which remains in the archives of

the organization "Creating a Sober World."

I am sure a copy could be made available to

you through Arkie K. or Bruce K.



I visited the Office of General Services of

AA in Havana last December, 2001. Almost ten

years after our first visit in 1993, there are

almost 100 AA groups across the Island of Cuba.

I am mystified over the dedication that the

offices of general services of AA offer to the

world and the role every one of its members

play locally to make the program work. My

message to my friends who still don't know

about AA, or those who perhaps know about it,

but are still in doubt, is that they may open

the doors of their hearts, their churches and

meeting places to the groups of AA in Cuba.



Hulda Lorente

P.O. Box 56032

St. Petersburg, FL 33732

Tel. 727/528/3149

e-mail: hlorente@hotmail.com

(hlorente at hotmail.com)


0 -1 0 0
5092 Tom Hickcox
Re: Fifth steps in early AA Fifth steps in early AA 7/6/2008 3:51:00 PM


We have Earl Treat's story of doing the early

steps in his story "He Sold Himself Short."



The specific passage is on p. 292 in the Third

Edition and p. 263 in the current edition.



Technically, though, this wasn't a Fifth Step

as the program had only six steps at the time.



He did it with Dr. Bob. No mention is made of

going through the steps with someone outside

the program.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



- - - -



At 21:28 7/5/2008, Raymond Shepherd wrote:



>What was the procedure for early AA members

>to take Step Five? The Big Book, the 12x12,

>The Little Red Book all suggest people outside

>of AA to hear the fifth step.

>

>Some of my protogees question my use of The

>Little Red Book because it tells the reader

>'when the right time arrives, arrange an

>interview with anyone outside AA who will

>be understanding but unaffected by your

>narration.'

>

>Does anyone have information regarding hearing

>of Fifth steps in early AA prior to 1953?


0 -1 0 0
5093 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Spiritual not religious Spiritual not religious 7/6/2008 12:46:00 PM


In a letter dated 1954 (seen in The AA Way

of Life pg 95) Bill wrote, "We are only

operating a spiritual kindergarden to which

people are enabled to get over drinking and

find the grace to go on living to better

effect. Each man's theology has to be his own

quest, his own value."



The rest of pg 95 attributes its quotations

to AACOA pp 162, 163, 167.



"When the Big Book was being planned,some

members thought that it ought to be Christian

in the doctrinal sense. Others had no objection

to the use of the word "God," but wanted to

avoid doctrinal issues. Spirituality, yes.

Religion, no. Still others wanted a psycho-

logical book, to lure the Alcoholic in. Once

in he could take God or leave him alone as he

wished. To the rest of us this was shocking,

but happily we listened. Our group conscience

was at work to construct the most acceptable

and effective book possible. Every voice was

playing its appointed part. Our atheists and

agnostics widened our gateway so that all

who suffer might pass through, regardless of

their belief or lack of belief."



Yours in Service

Shakey Mike Gwirtz



- - - -



From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

<glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



The description of AA as "spiritual" rather

than "religious" goes back to the earliest

days. See for example this reference from

1940:



Message 381 Possibly the 1st AA Pamphlet

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/381



From William Lash



THE FIRST “A.A.” PAMPHLET

AS DERIVED FROM THE SERIES

OF ARTICLES FROM THE

HOUSTON PRESS



BY

LARRY JEWELL*



(April 1940)



[*Larry Jewell came to Houston from

Cleveland with only a Big Book and a

Spiritual Experience resulting from having

taken the Steps while hospitalized. His

Sponsors were Dr. Bob Smith & Clarence

Snyder.]



"This approach to alcoholism is squarely based

on our own drinking experience, what we have

learned from medicine and psychiatry, and upon

certain spiritual principles common to all

creeds. We think each man’s religious views,

if he has any, are his own affair. No member

is obliged to conform to anything whatever

except to admit that he has the alcoholic

illness and that he honestly wishes to be rid

of it."



"While every shade of opinion is expressed

among us we take no position as a group, upon

controversial questions. We are only trying

to aid the sick men and distracted families

who want to be at peace. We have found that

genuine tolerance of others, coupled with a

friendly desire to be of service is most

essential to our recovery."



- - - -



In a message dated 7/6/2008 3:14:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

jax760@yahoo.com writes:



We frequently hear in the rooms that the AA

program is "spiritual not religious."



I am aware that Bill W. has been quoted as

saying "we are not a religious organization"

and that the Big Book says ... "we have written

a book which we believe to be spiritual as

well as moral."



Does anyone recall seeing in anything in print

attributable to Bill W., the first 100 or in

Conference literature that says "spriritual

not religious"?



Facts only please, no opinions on the topic!



God Bless



John B


0 -1 0 0
5094 jm48301
Re: Set A Side Prayer Set A Side Prayer 7/6/2008 5:00:00 PM


In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Alan

Spencer <alan.nm46@...> wrote:

>

> Some of the Big Book Studies around the country

> use a prayer called the set-a-side prayer; does

> anyone have the words?

>

> Thanks,

> Alan in the Desert

______________________________________



The text of the Set-Aside Prayer and an

explanation of its source can be found in:



http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Steps_Recovery/Pre-Step_Work/\

Set-Aside_Prayer.pdf



0 -1 0 0
5095 Arthur Sheehan
RE: Spiritual not religious Spiritual not religious 7/6/2008 10:00:00 PM


Hi John



Regrettably there is much repeated in AA that

has no basis in fact. Early AA was very "pro

religion" but it never attempted to project

itself as a religion. When too few words are

cited it is usually at the expense of context.

And I don't agree at all with the context you

are portraying. This is rather long reply

since you are seeking citations.



From my own investigations it seems that

attempts to draw a distinction between the

words "spiritual" and "religious" are flawed

and sophomoric. The two words can be used

interchangeably based on just about any

dictionary. Do a search on the internet for

the text string "definition of spiritual."

Almost every return that derives from a

dictionary will define the word "spiritual"

as "religious" or "of religion" or "of the

soul" (spirit). Attempts to draw a contrasting

distinction between the two words rest far

more in the secularism of contemporary AA

rather than in AA's historical roots. Many

of AA's early historical friends were members

of the clergy and their influence was profound.

Bill W often stated that AA's two best friends

were medicine and religion.



Over the past two decades the rise of

secularism has spawned the notion of the

words "religion" or "religious" to almost

be pejoratives. I find this very disturbing.

Also be careful to not be too selective in

the sparse citing of Bill W and the Big Book

-- both cite many favorable descriptions of

"religion" or "religious." For example:



From Bill W's address to the 1960 National

Clergy Conference On Alcoholism:



(1) "Excellencies and Friends: My thanks to

Father Ray for his introduction. He has us off

to an appropriate start. This hour with you

is most meaningful to me and I trust it will

be to you and to A.A. as a whole. Every

thoughtful A.A. realizes that the divine grace,

which has always flowed through the Church, is

the ultimate foundation on which AA rests. Our

spiritual origins are Christian ..."



(2) "... It now occurs to me that it may be

profitable if we were to review the origins

of AA; to take a look at some of its under-

lying mechanisms -- an interior look as it

were. Of course I am here reflecting my own

views, and some of these are bound to be

speculative. At any rate, here they are.

Though AA roots are in the centuries-old

Christian community, there seems little doubt

that in an immediate sense our fellowship

began in the office of the much-respected Dr.

Carl Jung of Zurich ..."



(3) "... Now a final thought. Many a non-

alcoholic clergyman asks these questions about

Alcoholics Anonymous: "Why do clergymen so

often fail with alcoholics, when AA so often

succeeds? Is it possible that the grace of

AA is superior to that of the Church? Is

Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion, a

competitor of the Church?



If these misgivings had real substance, they

would be serious indeed. But, as I have

already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot

in the least be regarded as a new religion.

Our Twelve Steps have no theological content,

except that which speaks of "God as we under-

stand Him." This means that each individual

AA member may define God according to whatever

faith or creed he may have. Therefore there

isn't the slightest interference with the

religious views of any of our membership.

The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral

attitudes and helpful practices, all of them

precisely Christian in character. Therefore,

as far as they go, the Steps are good

Christianity; indeed they are good Catholicism,

something which Catholic writers have affirmed

more than once.



Neither does AA exert the slightest religious

authority over its members: No one is

compelled to believe anything. No one is

compelled to meet membership conditions. No

one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we

have no system of authority, spiritual or

temporal, that is comparable to or in the

least competitive with the Church. At the

center of our society we have a Board of

Trustees. This body is accountable yearly to

a Conference of elected Delegates. These

Delegates represent the conscience and desire

of AA as regards functional or service

matters. Our Tradition contains an emphatic

injunction that these Trustees may never

constitute themselves as a government -- they

are to merely provide certain services that

enable AA as a whole to function. The same

principles apply at our group and area level.



Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own religious

views. For whatever they may be worth, I have

my own. But both of us have gone heavily on

record to the effect that these personal

views and preferences can never under any

conditions be injected into the AA program

as a working part of it. AA is a sort of

spiritual kindergarten, but that is all. Never

could it be called a religion.



Nor should any clergyman, because he does not

happen to be a channel of grace to alcoholics,

feel that he or his Church is lacking in

grace. No real question of grace is involved

at all - it is just a question of who can best

transmit God's abundance. It so happens that

we who have suffered alcoholism, we who can

identify so deeply with other sufferers, are

the ones usually best suited for this parti-

cular work. Certainly no clergyman ought to

feel any inferiority just because he himself

is not an alcoholic! Then, as I have already

emphasized, AA has actually derived all of

its principles, directly or indirectly, from

the Church.



Ours, gentlemen, is a debt of gratitude far

beyond any ability of mine to express. On

behalf of members everywhere, I give you our

deepest thanks for the warm understanding and

the wonderful co-operation that you have

everywhere afforded us. Please also have my

gratitude for the privilege of being with you

this morning. This is an hour that I shall

remember always ..."



From the Q&A that followed Bill's address:



(4) "... When these Steps were shown to my

friends, their reactions were quite mixed

indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked

fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic

contingent there were loud cries of too much

"God." Others objected to an expression, which

I had included which suggested getting on

one's knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted

these objections for months. But finally did

take out my statement about a suitable prayer-

ful posture and I finally went along with that

now tremendously important expression, "God

as we understand Him" - this expression having

been coined, I think, by one of our former

atheist members. This was indeed a ten-strike.

That one has since enabled thousands to join

AA who would have otherwise gone away. It

enabled people of fine religious training and

those of none at all to associate freely and

to work together. It made one's religion the

business of the AA member himself and not that

of his society.



That AA's Twelve Steps have since been in such

high esteem by the Church, that members of the

Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention

to the similarity between them and the

Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for our

great wonder and gratitude indeed ..."



(5) From the Foreword to the Second Edition

Big Book:



"... Another reason for the wide acceptance

of A.A. was the ministration of friends --

friends in medicine, religion, and the press,

together with innumerable others who became

our able and persistent advocates. Without

such support, A.A. could have made only the

slowest progress. Some of the recommendations

of A.A.'s early medical and religious friends

will be found further on in this book.



Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious

organization. Neither does A.A. take any

particular medical point of view, though we

cooperate widely with the men of medicine

as well as with the men of religion.



Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we are

an accurate cross section of America, and in

distant lands, the same democratic evening-up

process is now going on. By personal religious

affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants,

Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and

Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women ..."



(6) From Bill's Story



"... The door opened and he stood there,

fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something

about his eyes. He was inexplicably different.

What had happened?



I pushed a drink across the table. He refused

it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what

had got into the fellow. He wasn't himself.

"Come, what's this all about?" I queried. He

looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly,

he said, "I've got religion ..."



(7) From We Agnostics



"... We, who have traveled this dubious path,

beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against

organized religion. We have learned that

whatever the human frailties of various faiths

may be, those faiths have given purpose and

direction to millions. People of faith have

a logical idea of what life is all about.

Actually, we used to have no reasonable

conception whatever. We used to amuse our-

selves by cynically dissecting spiritual

beliefs and practices when we might have

observed that many spiritually-minded persons

of all races, colors, and creeds were demon-

strating a degree of stability, happiness and

usefulness which we should have sought

ourselves ..."



(8) From Into Action



"... We must be entirely honest with somebody

if we expect to live long or happily in this

world. Rightly and naturally, we think well

before we choose the person or persons with

whom to take this intimate and confidential

step. Those of us belonging to a religious

denomination which requires confession must,

and of course, will want to go to the properly

appointed authority whose duty it is to receive

it. Though we have no religious connection, we

may still do well to talk with someone ordained

by an established religion. We often find such

a person quick to see and understand our

problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter

people who do not understand alcoholics ..."



"... If circumstances warrant, we ask our

wives or friends to join us in morning

meditation. If we belong to a religious

denomination which requires a definite morning

devotion, we attend to that also. If not

members of religious bodies, we sometimes

select and memorize a few set prayers which

emphasize the principles we have been

discussing. There are many helpful books also.

Suggestions about these may be obtained from

one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to

see where religious people are right. Make

use of what they offer ..."



(9) From Working With Others



"... Your prospect may belong to a religious

denomination. His religious education and

training may be far superior to yours. In that

case he is going to wonder how you can add

anything to what he already knows. But he will

be curious to learn why his own convictions

have not worked and why yours seem to work so

well. He may be an example of the truth that

faith alone is insufficient. To be vital,

faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice

and unselfish, constructive action. Let him

see that you are not there to instruct him in

religion. Admit that he probably knows more

about it than you do, but call to his attention

the fact that however deep his faith and

knowledge, he could not have applied it or

he would not drink. Perhaps your story will

help him see where he has failed to practice

the very precepts he knows so well. We

represent no particular faith or denomination.

We are dealing only with general principles

common to most denominations ..."



(10) From The Family Afterward



"... Alcoholics who have derided religious

people will be helped by such contacts. Being

possessed of a spiritual experience, the

alcoholic will find he has much in common

with these people, though he may differ with

them on many matters. If he does not argue

about religion, he will make new friends and

is sure to find new avenues of usefulness and

pleasure. He and his family can be a bright

spot in such congregations. He may bring new

hope and new courage to many a priest,

minister, or rabbi, who gives his all to

minister to our troubled world. We intend

the foregoing as a helpful suggestion only.

So far as we are concerned, there is nothing

obligatory about it. As non-denominational

people, we cannot make up others' minds for

them. Each individual should consult his own

conscience ..."



========



In just about every mention of "not religious"

it seems that Bill's context was that AA is

not affiliated with any specific religious

denomination and matters of religion are

solely up to each individual member to define

for themselves -- Bill very definitely was

not attempting to distance himself from

religion. Two more citations that might be

interesting concerning the Oxford Group and

its influence on the principles embodied in

the Steps.



In a July 14, 1949 letter to the Rev Sam

Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am

concerned, and Dr Smith too, the Oxford

Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual

wellspring at the beginning."



In AA Comes of Age (pg 39) Bill also wrote:

"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination,

acknowledgment of character defects,

restitution for harm done and working with

others straight from the Oxford Groups and

directly from Sam Shoemaker their former

leader in America and from nowhere else."



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
5096 tomikepete
Amen in the 7th step prayer Amen in the 7th step prayer 7/8/2008 12:17:00 AM


Given all the AA prayers, does anyone know

why the 7th step prayer is the only one which

ends with "amen" ?



Peace


0 -1 0 0
5097 tomper87
Re: Set A Side Prayer Set A Side Prayer 7/6/2008 11:05:00 PM


Another version of the prayer:



Set Aside Prayer:



"God please help me to set aside everything

I know about myself, the twelve steps, this

book, the meetings, my disease and you God,

so I may have an open mind and a new

experience with all of these things. Please

let me see the truth."


0 -1 0 0
5098 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Fifth steps in early AA Fifth steps in early AA 7/6/2008 10:56:00 PM


The reference on the matter of Step 5 is in

the Big Book chapter Into Action (pgs 73 and

74) and The Little Red Book refers the reader

to those pages which state:



"... We must be entirely honest with somebody

if we expect to live long or happily in this

world. Rightly and naturally, we think well

before we choose the person or persons with

whom to take this intimate and confidential

step. Those of us belonging to a religious

denomination which requires confession must,

and of course, will want to go to the properly

appointed authority whose duty it is to

receive it. Though we have no religious

connection, we may still do well to talk with

someone ordained by an established religion.

We often find such a person quick to see and

understand our problem. Of course, we

sometimes encounter people who do not

understand alcoholics ..."



To me the emphasis is on: "... Rightly and

naturally, we think well before we choose the

person or persons with whom to take this

intimate and confidential step ..." I believe

the Big Book guidance is that you "can" do

Step 5 with someone outside of AA not that

you "should or must" do it with someone outside

of AA. I think over time this has primarily

evolved into taking the Step 5 with one's

sponsor. I personally know of several disasters

that occurred from members not wisely picking

someone outside of AA.



There weren't any formal Steps in early AA's

6-Step program. It was all word of mouth and

what got passed on varied quite a bit

depending on who was doing the passing.

That's one of the reasons why the Big Book

was written. The Mid-West (re Dr Bob and

Earl T) was far more influenced by the Oxford

Group than the NY members. What Earl T

describes in his story is part of the "Five

C's" of the Oxford Group (Confession). It also

seems that in the early days members were

walked through the Steps rather quickly.



While The Little Red Book is more explicit

and direct in recommending a "clergyman or

psychiatrist" that was the interpretation of

the 12 Steps based on the viewpoint of the

Nicolette Group in Minneapolis, MN not

necessarily AA as a whole. I'd strongly

recommend first doing the 5th Step with one's

sponsor. When I first did it, it was with my

sponsor and then I did it again with a Jesuit

priest who was an AA member. The priest was

my way of admitting it to God while receiving

the Roman Catholic sacrament of Confession

(today called Reconciliation).



Cheers

Arthur



PS - while on my soapbox I think there is

far too much emphasis in AA today on "Step

procedure" and it is at the expense of

"Step substance." Bill W gave us Steps "which

are suggested as a program of recovery" --

they are not the same as Moses giving us

Commandments.


0 -1 0 0
5099 jblair101
Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship 7/11/2008 1:05:00 PM


By Laurie Goodstein

International Herald Tribune



Friday, July 11, 2008

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/11/america/prayer.php



Generations of recovering alcoholics, soldiers, weary parents,

exploited workers and just about anybody feeling beaten down by life

have found solace in a short prayer that begins: "God grant me the

serenity to accept the things I cannot change."



Now the Serenity Prayer is about to endure a controversy over its

authorship that is likely to be anything but serene.



For more than 70 years, the composer was thought to be the Protestant

theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, one of modern Christianity's most

towering figures. Niebuhr, who died in 1971, said he was quite sure he

had written it, and his wife, Ursula, also a prominent theologian,

dated its composition to the early 1940s.



His daughter Elisabeth Sifton, a book editor and publisher, wrote a

book about the prayer in 2003 in which she described her father first

using it in 1943 in an "ordinary Sunday service" at a church in the

Massachusetts town of Heath.



Now, a law librarian at Yale, using new databases of archival

documents, has found newspaper clippings and a book from as far back

as 1936 that quote close versions of the prayer. The quotes are from

civic leaders all over the United States and are always,

interestingly, by women.



Some refer to the prayer as if it were a proverb, while others appear

to claim it as their own poetry. None of them attribute the prayer to

a particular source. And they never mention Niebuhr.



An article about the mystery of the prayer, by Fred Shapiro, associate

library director and lecturer at Yale Law School, who edited "The Yale

Book of Quotations," will be published next week in the Yale Alumni

Magazine, an independent bimonthly publication. It will be followed by

a rebuttal from Sifton.



Shapiro said in an interview: "Reinhold Niebuhr was a very honest

person who was very forthright and modest about his role in the

Serenity Prayer. My interpretation would be that he probably

unconsciously adapted it from something that he had heard or read."



But Sifton faults Shapiro's approach as computer-driven and deprived

of historical and theological context. In an interview, she said her

father traveled widely in the 1930s, preaching in college chapels and

to church groups and could have used the prayer then. She said she

fixed the date of its composition to 1943 in her book, "The Serenity

Prayer: Faith and Politics in Times of Peace and War," because she had

relied on her parents' recollections.



Sifton said the newly unearthed quotes were merely evidence that her

father's preaching had a broad impact.



And she took greatest umbrage at Shapiro's notion that the prayer was

so simple that it could have been written by almost anyone in any era.



"There is a kind of austerity and humility about this prayer," Sifton

said, "that is very characteristic of him and was in striking contrast

to the conventional sound of the American pastorate in the 1930s, who

were by and large optimistic, affirmative, hopeful."



The precise origins of the Serenity Prayer have always been wrapped in

a fog. Even in Niebuhr's lifetime, his authorship was challenged.



His response was typically modest. He was quoted in a magazine article

in 1950 as saying: "Of course, it may have been spooking around for

years, even centuries, but I don't think so. I honestly do believe

that I wrote it myself."



The version of events most often cited in biographies of Niebuhr is

that after he used the prayer in a sermon in rural Massachusetts, an

Episcopal priest asked for permission to print it in a booklet for the

armed forces in 1944.



Alcoholics Anonymous then embraced it, simplified some wording,

changed the pronouns and circulated it as a motto for its 12-step program.



Bartlett's Familiar Quotations attributed it to Niebuhr but gave the

date as 1934, perhaps citing an erroneous reference in an article in

the magazine of Alcoholics Anonymous, Shapiro said. But Ursula

Niebuhr, who died in 1997, wrote in a memorandum (which an assistant

for Shapiro saw in the Library of Congress) that her husband "may have

used it in his prayers" by 1934, but "it certainly was not then in

circulation."



A Niebuhr biographer, Charles Brown, was surprised to hear of the

early references. He said, "It is now well established beyond the

shadow of any doubt among knowledgeable and fair-minded people that

Niebuhr did compose it, probably in 1941 or '43."



Brown said that perhaps Sifton's theory was correct and that the

newspaper quotations were from people who heard Niebuhr speak the

prayer years before he wrote it down.



But, Shapiro argued, knowing that Niebuhr was so famous, why did none

of the people who cited the prayer in the clippings also cite the

theologian?



The artifacts that Shapiro unearthed dismayed the Reverend Gary

Dorrien, the Reinhold Niebuhr professor of social ethics at Union

Theological Seminary in New York, which was Niebuhr's scholarly home

for many years.



Dorrien said, "What has the ring of truth to me is that some of the

phrases in it, the gist of it, he heard or came into contact with in

some way that he wouldn't have remembered, since he's not a scholarly,

bookwormish person with habits of scholarly exactitude anyway."


0 -1 0 0
5100 Bill Lash
Fr. Martin Fr. Martin 7/10/2008 6:37:00 PM


Front-Page Story from June 29, 2008 Baltimore Sun.





His comeback was the worst-kept secret at Ashley.



After a six-month absence, an ailing Father Joseph Martin returned recently

to what has been called the Betty Ford Clinic of the East Coast - Father

Martin's Ashley. Arriving in his wheelchair, he waited for the applause and

standing ovation to yield before speaking to 80 patients at the addiction

treatment center he co-founded near Havre de Grace.



One more time, the 83-year-old priest spoke of the symptoms of sobriety -

the ways patients know they are getting better. Recognizing that everyone is

in pain. The return of one's self-esteem and humanity. No more living a lie.

Father Martin spoke of his own drinking, his own "island of pain and

self-hatred." He thanked everyone for their prayers. "I'm going to go home

shortly now. That took all the steam out of me."



This has been a milestone year for Joseph Martin. Together with his partner,

Mae Abraham, they watch over the addiction center they opened 25 years ago

this spring.



More than 30,000 people have been treated there, including supermodel Niki

Taylor, pro football player Thomas "Hollywood" Henderson, the late Michael

Kennedy, the son of Robert F. Kennedy, and the late former White House aide

Michael Deaver. Lynda Carter Altman, TV's former Wonder Woman and an Ashley

alum herself, performed before 540 guests who paid $250 a seat to attend a

silver anniversary gala last month.



Father Martin marked his own milestone this month: It was 50 years ago that

the young Baltimore priest entered treatment. He has congestive heart

failure now and endures dialysis three times weekly. His blood pressure

sinks dangerously low. Takes a week of energy to decide to belch, as Father

Martin says. Public appearances are seldom.



"I pray for him every day," says Mary Royals, 49, of Bethesda. "He has an

immense amount of compassion because he is one of us. He gave people back

their lives."



In 2003, Royals, once a serious binge drinker, spent a month at Ashley,

which is about the prettiest place for the ugly business of getting clean.

Bald eagles, wild turkeys and osprey inhabit the grounds of the former

estate of Sen. Millard Tydings of Maryland. While there's nothing idyllic

about detoxification, a patient's road to recovery is paved with creature

comforts at Ashley.



"At Ashley, I found people who had been in situations similar to mine. The

disease had no prejudices. It is a great equalizer, whether you are in the

public eye or not," Deaver wrote in his book, Behind the Scenes.



For $20,800 for 28 days, patients undergo a regiment of instruction,

therapy, fellowship and something about having to get up at 6 in the

morning. "This campus is routinely inspected by detection canines," says a

sign in the lobby of the nonprofit. The only permitted "contraband" is

candy. A media blackout is imposed; no cell phones, no BlackBerries, no TV -

except during Super Bowls and World Series. Sixty percent of the patients

are men, after all.



Until a few years ago, Father Martin regularly visited and welcomed patients

with his trademark: "The nightmare is over." He held court afternoons in the

sunny dining room, as patients gathered around.



To know Father Martin is to know his penguin joke: A police officer spots a

drunk walking down the street with a penguin. Tells the man to take the

penguin to the zoo where he belongs. The next day, the officer sees the same

drunk walking the same penguin. Thought I told you to take him to the zoo.

"I did," the drunk said. "He loved it. Today, we're going to the library."



The joke, emblematic of Father Martin's disarming approach to addiction, is

immortalized in Ashley's chapel, where a 1-inch figure of a penguin was

inserted in one of the stained-glass panels. The penguin is part of a tour

of Ashley, as are the hundreds of nametags stuck on the ceiling of a

waterfront gazebo by patients on their last day at the facility. Along the

fence line above the Chesapeake Bay, markers still remain for Molly and

Bonnie, Father Martin's Labs that once escorted patients on walks and

chronically retrieved balls.



Adorning the walls of Ashley's rooms, portraits of Father Martin and Mae

Abraham hang inseparably. Mae still speaks there every month, while Father

Martin has stayed home. He watches the news, waits for her return, and

steels himself against more dialysis.



"I live tired," he says.



But he's not alone.



At the Abraham home At Mae Abraham's Havre de Grace home in early June, no

one is enjoying the pool - too hot for that. Her manicured gardens feature

plants just high enough, as she points out, to avoid the urinary wrath of

the Labradors, which her 52-year-old son, Alex, field trains. The home was

built out in the back to make a bedroom for Father Martin. A crucifix hangs

over his crisply made bed, where a stuffed penguin hogs a pillow.



In the family room, Father Martin sits in what must be his

favorite chair. He's watching Fox News. I'm probably a McCain man,

he says. Mae sits behind him on the couch and consults the man's biography,

One

Step Closer: The Life and Work of Father Joseph C. Martin. She knows their

narrative by heart but the dates get fuzzy. In fact, it was 1958 when Father

Martin was admitted to a treatment center. Ordained a decade earlier, he had

discovered his taste for alcohol that same year during a Thanksgiving dinner

with fellow priests.



"There are people who have to acquire a taste for gin, but I didn't - I

loved it immediately. I had two or three doubles that day," he said in his

biography. His drinking escalated. "It never occurred to me that perhaps

there was something odd about a priest walking toward a garbage dump in the

middle of the afternoon carrying two suitcases filled with clanking

bottles."



It occurred to his superiors, who noticed Father Martin's careless teaching

habits and troubling behavior. In 1956, he was admitted to a psychiatric

ward of a California hospital. No one suspected alcoholism, so when Father

Martin left the hospital appearing healthier and happy, he also returned to

his double martinis and drinking shots of vodka from bottles he kept in his

bathroom. By 1958, Joe Martin could no longer keep his drinking and behavior

under control, much less a secret. The Archdiocese of Baltimore ordered him

into treatment at Guest House, a Michigan treatment center for clergy.



There, he was exposed to the tenants of Bill Wilson's Alcoholics Anonymous

program. Wilson, a Wall Street businessman ruined by drink, had developed a

12-step, faith-based program that treated alcoholism as a disease and

stressed staying sober and helping others achieve sobriety. Father Martin

saved his notes from the lectures and conversations during his time at Guest

House. He also got sober.



In the 1960s, Father Martin distilled Wilson's 12 steps into literally a

blackboard talk. He made the rounds of AA meetings with his direct,

self-referencing lectures on addiction. The U.S. armed services, which had

begun mandatory addiction training for servicemen, used Martin's 90-minute

Chalk Talk on Alcohol, as did private businesses and rehab centers. Poorly

lit and single-angled, the training films featured one bespectacled priest

and one chalk board. "No singing or dancing," as the host says. (The films

have gained a new audience on YouTube.)



We alcoholics drink because we can't NOT drink.



I must not make myself a part of the destruction of someone I love.



Drug your conscience and see where your behavior goes.



What are you worth?



But why did he drink?



"Oh, a thousand reasons," Father Martin says. "The point is I crossed the

line until I could not NOT drink."



Growing up in a Hampden rowhouse, the seven Martin children were exposed to

drinking. Father Martin's 81-year-old brother, Edward Martin, says their

father drank on Friday, payday. The rest of the week, James Martin, a

machinist by trade, was fine, but Friday nights were not pleasant. Three of

the four boys developed drinking problems.



"They say children of an alcoholic get used to the idea of drinking," says

Edward Martin, who lives in Georgia. He was spared the attraction. "I never

had the money to buy the stuff."



His older brother, Joseph, was clearly the popular one, winner of oratory

contests at Loyola High School, the gift of gab. He grew up to be a devoted

and enormously generous priest - with a quirk to his personality, his only

living brother says. In a crowd, Joseph dominated the conversation with his

humor, "as if he felt inadequate to socially bond with people or be

comfortable in their presence unless he was entertaining them. He doesn't

converse; he gives a humorous lecture."



In 1964, Father Martin crossed paths with Lora Mae Abraham, a mother and

housewife from Havre de Grace. Her drinking was out of control and

threatened to upend her marriage to Tommy Abraham, the owner of a Greek

restaurant in Aberdeen. Days after a lost weekend at Rehoboth Beach, Del.,

Abraham agreed to attend a lecture at the Johns Hopkins University. Former

Iowa Gov. Harold Hughes was to talk about his alcoholism. Filling in for the

governor, however, was a Catholic priest from Baltimore. Mae looked for the

exit.



Hello, I'm Joe Martin, and I'm an alcoholic. ...

Then, the Catholic priest told her, a Southern Baptist, that she wasn't to

blame

for her drinking. That she wasn't evil.



"He removed the shame from me," she says. "It changed my life forever on."



A lifelong friendship and partnership were born. Mae took everyone she knew

with a drinking problem to hear Father Martin's chalk talks. But despite his

sobriety and popularity, he was suffering another crisis by the end of the

1960s.



Assigned to St. Mary's Seminary on Paca Street, Father Martin no longer had

any assignments or classes, nothing to do anymore. He felt useless. He

stayed in his darkened bedroom and became increasingly reclusive and

depressed. He turned to Mae. "I'm 45 years old, and all I have to show for

my life is the blackboard talk," he told her on the phone in 1970.



They had all become close friends - Father Martin, Mae, her son, Alex, then

14, and Tommy - Father Martin especially liked the babaghanouj Tommy made at

his restaurant. So, it wasn't unusual when Tommy and Mae asked Father Martin

if he would like to come out to their home in the country and spend a few

days resting.



That was 38 years ago.



"He's the man who came to dinner, and he's still eating," she says.



He moved in with his German shepherd, Casey. Mae and the dog did not get

along, so she sent both dog and priest to canine-training class. That got

Father Martin driving and out of the house again. Next, her house guest

needed, well, a job. Father Martin went to work for the state of Maryland's

new Division of Alcoholism Control. Mae suggested that he also travel the

country to give his chalk talks. They started their own production company,

Kelly Productions, which offered nearly 40 Father Martin film titles. (In

2007, Mae and Father Martin sold the rights to his books and films.)



In 1978, Mae suggested they open a treatment center.



"You're going to die, and everything you have done will die with you," she

told him.



After an initial $1 million grant, it would take another seven years to

raise enough money to open Ashley - named for Mae's father, the Rev. Arthur

Ashley. In 1983, the 22-bed facility opened on Oakington Farm, the former

estate of Millard Tydings, a native son of Havre de Grace and U.S. senator

from Maryland. Six staff members hovered and fussed over all five patients.

Expenses were paid from the film profits. And over much time, Ashley built a

national reputation as it grew donation by donation, building by building.



Father Martin became a celebrity - his picture was taken with former first

ladies Betty Ford and Nancy Reagan. In 1993, he was invited to the Vatican.

Father Martin, then 65, helped celebrate Mass with Pope John Paul II. "The

most profound experience of my life," he says.



Before he left, the priest from Harford County handed the pontiff a brochure

from Ashley.



Retirement years In retirement, Mae Abraham has become Father Martin's

caretaker. On days when his blood pressure plummets, she props his feet up

and

feeds him broth and monitors his numbers. In January, he was near death in

an area hospital. Last rites were given. Mae rushed to the hospital and

insisted he be placed on a respirator. There had been confusion about his

living

will, she said.



One recent afternoon, Mae, who has been sober 45 years, steps outside to

give a tour of her garden, but needs to get back inside. She doesn't like to

leave Father alone (she has never called him Joseph). At night, her son,

Alex, helps Father Martin into bed and wonders if he'll still be with them

in the morning. You just don't know on those dialysis days, Mae says.



"He's afraid of leaving this place," she says. "But I told him I made him a

promise a long time ago. As long as I'm alive, you'll be here."



In the family room, Father Martin turns the sound down to Fox News. As a Sun

photographer takes pictures, he whispers, "You can use some of these

pictures to keep the mice out of the basement." One of the black Labs lopes

over with a toy in his mouth. Just like the Labs years ago at Ashley.



"Like everything, I miss it."



No blackboard lecture, just a tired and sick man whose simple and smart

words helped a lot of sick people while giving him something very much to do

with his life.



"Mae and I know what we've done. We stand before God with it," says Joseph

Martin of Father Martin's Ashley.



"And if they mess it up and don't keep our philosophy," Mae Abraham adds,

"we'll come back and haunt the hell out of

them."



They aren't kidding.


0 -1 0 0
5101 Bill Lash
400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs & DVDs 400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs & DVDs 7/10/2008 6:45:00 PM


www.justloveaudio.com has just added over 400 AA History and Oldtimer CDs

and DVDs to our store. Many of these Oldtimers came to AA in the 1930s and

1940s. To see the CD list:



1-Please go to

http://justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa

2-The "Type" field is a drop down screen, pick "History/Oldtimers"

3-After choosing "History/Oldtimers", click "Search"

4-Scroll down to see the full list of Oldtimer and AA History CDs available



We also have AA History DVDs in our recovery bookstore at

http://justloveaudio.com/book_store.php?cat_id=2



Thank you for allowing us to be of service & God bless.


0 -1 0 0
5102 jenny andrews
Re: Fifth steps in early AA Fifth steps in early AA 7/7/2008 6:34:00 AM


From Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Is it recorded anywhere when, where and with whom Dr Bob took the fifth step?

"Pass It On" recounts that the morning of his last drink, after Bill gave him

"one 'goofball' and a single bottle of beer, to curb the shakes" Bob set off to

perform a surgical procedure. Hours later he returned home, having driven

around to his creditors and others to make amends. So it seems he did not take

the fifth step after his last drink; did he take the first five steps with Bill

in the previous few weeks, while Bill was lodging with him? Also, how many fifth

steps did Bill take? AA literature relates two occasions: in his story in the

Big Book Bill wrote, "(After leaving hospital) my schoolmate (Ebby) visited me,

and I fully acquainted him with my problems and deficiencies. We made a list of

people I had hurt or toward whom I felt resentment. I expressed my entire

willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong (steps four

through nine)." Then, "Pass It On" records of Bill's first meeting with Fr Ed

Dowling, "That evening, Father Ed began sharing with Bill an understanding of

the spiritual life that then and ever after seemed to speak to Bill's condition

(interesting Quaker phrase! - see George Fox, "There is one, even Christ Jesus,

who can speak to thy condition"). Bill, author of the Fifth Step, would later

characterize that evening as the night he took his Fifth Step... he unburdened

himself of his commissions and omissions, all of which had lain heavily on his

mind, and of which he had found, until then, no way to speak...." (Surely that

was a Step Ten?)



- - - -



From: "terry walton" <twalton@3gcinc.com>

(twalton at 3gcinc.com)



We have many examples in the Big Book of people outside of AA

"hearing our story" or 5th steps.



The first is Bill in his own words:



BB pg 13:3 "My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him

with my problems and deficiencies."



We also know this done again in AA Comes of Age when Bill meets Father

Ed Dowling.



Both men outside of AA.



In the book Alcoholics Anonymous it suggests using the properly

appointed people.



The list of "proper people" suggested is: page 74:0



1. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires

confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly

appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it.

2. Though we have no religious connection, we may still do well to

talk with someone ordained by an established religion.

3. Perhaps our doctor or

4. or psychologist will be the person.

5. It may be one of our own family

6. we cannot disclose anything to our wives or our parents which will

hurt them and make them unhappy. (this is saying a family member or wife

is a good candidate as long as what is shared is not at their expense)



The directions for "whom" is to hear this pretty clear:



Notwithstanding the great necessity for discussing ourselves with

someone, it may be one is so situated that there is no suitable person

available. If that is so, this step may be postponed, only, however, if we hold

ourselves in complete readiness to go through with it at the first opportunity.

We say this because we are very anxious that we talk to the right person. It is

important that he be able to keep a

confidence; that he fully understand and approve what we are driving at;



A priest, minister, rabbi, which their duty is to receive this, under

the protection of the right of confession these conversations are

protected by Church law. A doctor or psychologist or attorney all are good

suggestions for the same reason, client confidentiality.



I find it petty convincing the men that wrote this, expected a man or

woman to use a religious person "whose duty it is to

receive it. since it is suggested not once, but twice. And backed up

again shortly with the 11th step suggestion of "make use of what

they offer".



Terry Walton



- - - -



From: Tommy Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



We have Earl Treat's story of doing the early steps in his story "He Sold

Himself Short."The specific passage is on p. 292 in the Third Edition and p. 263

in the current edition.Technically, though, this wasn't a Fifth Step as the

program had only six steps at the time.He did it with Dr. Bob. No mention is

made of going through the steps with someone outside the program.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
5103 diazeztone
Big Book concordance index history? Big Book concordance index history? 7/9/2008 9:56:00 PM


I am in Dallas for a while and attending a

group which is studying the book using the

big book study guide by the primary purpose

group of Dallas. (available online also)



Is there a concordance index of all the

history things in the book as they happen

chapter by chapter and line by line?



Example today we are doing the Dr.s Opinion

and at the end they were wondering who the

two men were mentioned at the end of that

chapter. I should know but need to look them

up.



Have all the historical references been listed

line by line paragraph by paragraph??



LD P sober 13 years since june 15 1995

editor aabibliography.com


0 -1 0 0
5104 grault
Re: Amen in the 7th step prayer Amen in the 7th step prayer 7/10/2008 10:53:00 PM


Or why the 7th Step prayer speaks to God in

terms of "you" and "your" but the 3d Step

prayer speaks in terms of "Thee" and "Thy"?



- - - -



In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "tomikepete"

<mike_petersen@...> wrote:

>

> Given all the AA prayers, does anyone know

> why the 7th step prayer is the only one which

> ends with "amen" ?

>


0 -1 0 0
5105 James Bliss
Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship 7/11/2008 8:40:00 PM


The article appears to be very incomplete.

What article (at least one or two) and what

book did Shapiro find. Seems that there

should be the ability to verify the sources

one way or the other and provide additional

background as to who, what and where.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
5106 jblair101
Serenity Prayer article by Fred Shapiro and response by Niebuhr''s daughter Serenity Prayer article by Fred Shapiro and response by Niebuhr''s daughter 7/12/2008 3:03:00 PM


As a follow-up to the Serenity Prayer news

column posted yesterday, here are two links

of interest:



"Who wrote the Serenity Prayer?"

by Fred R. Shapiro, Yale University

http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2008_07/serenity.html



"It takes a master to make a masterpiece"

by Elisabeth Sifton (Niebuhr's daughter responds.)

http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2008_07/serenity.html#sifton



John


0 -1 0 0
5107 corafinch
Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship 7/13/2008 7:12:00 PM


I wonder when Shapiro discovered this, particularly in view of the fact that

posts from this

list (see mine of Dec 6, 2007) do come up on Google searches.



Facts are facts, but I think his interpretation of the evidence may go a little

too far.

Comments interspersed:

>

>

>

> By Laurie Goodstein

> International Herald Tribune

>

> Friday, July 11, 2008

> http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/11/america/prayer.php



<snip>

>

> For more than 70 years, the composer was thought to be the Protestant

> theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, one of modern Christianity's most

> towering figures. Niebuhr, who died in 1971, said he was quite sure he

> had written it, and his wife, Ursula, also a prominent theologian,

> dated its composition to the early 1940s.



Niebuhr did not say he was "quite sure" he had written it. His daughter is the

one who is

emphatically sure of everything including exact dates. When the editor of a

Lutheran

publication asked Niebuhr to comment on doubts as to his authorship, Niebuhr

pointed

out that great minds of the past, including Socrates and even Jesus, had made

use of older

material (he went on at some length) but that he did think he had written the

prayer in its

present form. In other words he seemed to be hedging a bit.



Niebuhr's father was a minister who immigrated from Germany as a young man. If

Niebuhr

translated something he had heard only from his father and only in German, his

recollection that he wrote it himself would be reasonable or at least

understandable.



<snip>

>

> Some refer to the prayer as if it were a proverb, while others appear

> to claim it as their own poetry. None of them attribute the prayer to

> a particular source. And they never mention Niebuhr.



<snip>

>

> Brown said that perhaps Sifton's theory was correct and that the

> newspaper quotations were from people who heard Niebuhr speak the

> prayer years before he wrote it down.

>

> But, Shapiro argued, knowing that Niebuhr was so famous, why did none

> of the people who cited the prayer in the clippings also cite the

> theologian?



This point seems weak to me. Of course, I haven't seen the original article, but

I strongly

suspect that his 1936 example of the prayer is the same 1936 one that I have

seen. It is

nothing but a caption to a photograph of Mildred Pinkerton, the Executive

Secretary of the

Syracuse YWCA, and says "Quotes the prayer, 'God grant us the courage to change

what

must be changed, the serenity to accept what cannot be changed, and the insight

to tell

one from the other.'" and that her remarks were delivered at the annual meeting

of the

YWCA. The reporter was only writing a caption for a photo, so it is impossible

to know

whether the speaker mentioned an author.



The other 2 examples I saw were not quite as brief, but in general I think it is

hard to

conclude anything from the fact that Niebuhr's name is NOT mentioned in

association with

the prayer until after 1943, because it often depends on what a reporter feels

is important,

and Niebuhr was not so famous that a random reporter would necessarily have

known

about him. The article seems like a tempest in a teapot.


0 -1 0 0
5108 sobrietytalks
Re: 400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs & DVDs 400+ AA History & Oldtimer CDs & DVDs 7/12/2008 3:55:00 PM


There is also a great collection of historical

Alcoholics Anonymous talks at www.sobrietytalks.com



There's a specific category for AA HISTORY

RELATED TALKS & RECORDINGS MADE PRIOR TO 1970.


0 -1 0 0
5109 schaberg43
Tom Uzzell''s Pay? Tom Uzzell''s Pay? 7/13/2008 9:24:00 AM


I have seen references on the Web to the fact

that Tom Uzzell was paid either $375 or $380

to do the editing of the Big Book.



Can anyone supply me with an original source

for this piece of information - or is it just

another one of the unsubstantiated "facts"

about AA that float around the Internet?



Old Bill


0 -1 0 0
5110 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Fifth steps in early AA Fifth steps in early AA 7/11/2008 9:41:00 PM


Dear Laurie and Terry



With all due respect, you are advocating

revisionist speculation not AA history.

AAHistoryLovers is supposed to focus on

fact-based information as opposed to

editorial-based imagination. Bill W sobered

up in December 1934. Dr Bob sobered up in

June 1935. The 12 Steps were first drafted

in December 1938.



When Bill W sobered up there was no such thing

even remotely approaching the notion of doing

the equivalent of a "5th Step" with "people

outside of AA." There was no AA. The

"schoolmate" who visited Bill in the hospital

was Ebby T. Bill considered him to be his

sponsor throughout his life (even though Ebby

had his difficulties staying sober). The idea

of alluding to Ebby as "people outside AA" is

absurd.



Bill W met Father Dowling in December 1940 at

the 24th St Club in NY City. He reputedly was

Bill W's "spiritual sponsor" throughout his

life. Although he was not an alcoholic, to

portray Fr Dowling as "people outside AA" is

also absurd. He started AA in St Louis, MO.



When Dr Bob had his last drink there was no

such thing as "Steps." Both of you seem to be

attempting to retrofit what exists today to

something that didn't exist back then.



Dr Bob joined the Oxford Group in 1933. This

was approximately two years before he met Bill W.

During the first few years of its existence,

the AA Fellowship was affiliated with the

Oxford Group in both NY and Akron. Core

Oxford Group principles consisted of the

"Four Absolutes" of honesty, unselfishness,

purity and love - the "Five C's" (confidence,

confession, conviction, conversion and

continuance) and the "Five Procedures"

(1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God's

direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitution

and 5. Sharing for witness and confession).



Dr Bob would certainly not have been a stranger

to practicing the principle of "Confession."

Henrietta Sieberling organized an OG meeting

at the home of T Henry and Clarace Williams

in Akron specifically to help Dr Bob with his

drinking. Dr Bob confessed openly about his

drinking but could not stop.



The OG never had anything that they called or

considered to be Steps. The idea and evolution

of Steps derived in the latter 1930s from what

was called the "alcoholic squads" of the OG

in Akron and NY. It initially took the form

of a word-of-mouth 6-Step program. Various

versions of the 6 Steps can be found in

(1) Earl T's Big Book Story "He Sold Himself

Short" pg 263 4th edition (2) "AA Comes of

Age" pg 160 and "Pass It On" pg 197 and

(3) a July 1953 Grapevine Article titled

"A Fragment of History" which can also be

found in "The Language of the Heart" pg 200.

In various forms, up to December 1938, the

equivalent of what later became Steps 5 and 10

were stated as either: (1) "Confession" or

(2) "We confessed or shared our shortcomings

with another person in confidence" or (3) "We

got honest with another person, in confidence."

There was no "admitted to God" and "to

ourselves."



It may sound like AA heresy, but the Big Book

is not the be-all and end-all on the Steps.

When Bill W wrote the bulk of the Big Book

basic text in 1938 he was in his fourth year

of sobriety, there were approximately 100

members and there were two groups. When Bill

wrote the 12&12 in 1953 he was in his 19th

year of sobriety, there were approximately

6,000 groups and 128,000 members. That's a

great deal of accumulated experience over

time. In the 12&12, on the 5th Step, Bill W

suggests:



"Our next problem will be to discover the

person in whom we are to confide. Here we

ought to take much care, remembering that

prudence is a virtue which carries a high

rating. Perhaps we shall need to share with

this person facts about ourselves which no

others ought to know. We shall want to speak

with someone who is experienced, who not

only has stayed dry but has been able to

surmount other serious difficulties.

Difficulties, perhaps, like our own. This

person may turn out to be one's sponsor, but

not necessarily so. If you have developed a

high confidence in him, and his temperament

and problems are close to your own, then such

a choice will be good. Besides, your sponsor

already has the advantage of knowing something

about your case."



Cheers

Arthur


0 -1 0 0
5111 Robert Stonebraker
RE: Big Book concordance index history? Big Book concordance index history? 7/14/2008 11:10:00 AM


I believe the second full paragraph pertains

to Hank Parkhurst who would have been two

years plus sober at the time the Doctor's

Opinion article was written.



The Third full paragraph is about Fitz Mayo

who sobered up at nearly the same time as

Hank.



Bob S.



- - - -



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diazeztone

Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:56 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Big Book concordance index history?



Example today we are doing the Dr.s Opinion

and at the end they were wondering who the

two men were mentioned at the end of that

chapter. I should know but need to look them

up.













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
5112 Glenn Chesnut
Anniversary of the Oxford Group June 27 Anniversary of the Oxford Group June 27 7/14/2008 12:45:00 PM


From John Barleycorn <yakstark@msn.com>

(yakstark at msn.com)

http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html

http://hindsfoot.org/barright.html

http://hindsfoot.org/barmole.html



The Apology That Launched a Million Amends



June 27th, 2008, will mark the 100th

anniversary of Frank Buchman's Spiritual

Awakening – one that directly linked him

to the cofounders of AA



He gave everything he had to establishing a

shelter for homeless boys in the slums of

Philadelphia. The shelters success surpassed

his budget and the six-member board of

directors insisted that he cut the amount of

food being given to his charges. He quit

instead of cutting back. Resentment consumed

him. His family despaired that he might not

come to his senses. His work was destroyed by

what he saw as the shortsightedness of others.

His health was well past the breaking point.



'Everywhere I went, I took me with me,' he

later said. During a trip to recuperate in

Europe, he exhausted the funds his father gave

him and existed on the kindness of his family

and the generosity of acquaintances. Tired and

dejected he went to an Evangelical Conference

in Keswick, England, hoping to connect with

F.B. Meyer, a famous minister he knew, for

spiritual help. Meyer was not in attendance;

another plan gone awry.



June 27, 1908, thirty year-old Frank Buchman,

a Pennsylvanian Lutheran minister, walked into

an afternoon service with 17 other people to

hear Jessie Penn Lewis preach on the cross of

Christ. And then it happened.



As Buchman sat in that Chapel, 'There was a

moment of spiritual peak of what God could do

for me. I was made a new man. My hatred was

gone ... I knew I had to write six letters to

those men I hated.'



'I am writing,' declared Buchman, 'to tell you

that I have harbored an unkind feeling toward

you -- at times I conquered it but it always

came back. Our views may differ but as

brothers we must love. I write to ask your

forgiveness and to assure that I love you and

trust by God's grace I shall never more speak

unkindly or disparagingly of you.'



Those letters of amends spawned a revolution

in Frank Buchman, a revolution that led to the

birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.



That evening, Frank was introduced to a young

Cambridge man, who upon hearing Buchman's tale

of moral regeneration made a decision to change

his own life. As Buchman described it, 'This

was the first fellow who I knew that I had

ever brought face to face with that central

experience.' For the next half century Buchman

dedicated his life to demonstrating that an

experience of God was available to anyone at

any time, regardless of race, religion, class

or nationality.



From England, Frank returned to the United

States where he went to work as the YMCA

director at Penn State University. There he

had a profound effect on campus life, due in

part to the conversion of the campus bootlegger,

who during a trip to Toronto with Frank and a

group of students from Penn State, made a

decision to change his life. After having Frank

help him by writing an amends letter to his

wife, the bootlegger never drank again and

went around the world with Frank talking about

his change.



Frank Buchman described the four years that he

spent at Penn State as the laboratory in which

he developed a practical program of action and

learned how to have honest conversations that

led people to make decisions to change their

lives.



The formula he developed was:



1. The sharing of our sins and temptations

with another Christian life given to God, and

to use sharing as witness to help others, still

unchanged, to recognize and acknowledge their

sins.



2. Surrender of our life, past, present, and

future, into God's keeping and direction.



3. Restitution to all whom we have wronged

directly or indirectly.



4. Listening to, accepting, relying on God's

guidance and carrying it out in everything we

do or say, great or small.



Sound familiar?



The application of this course of action

revolutionized the spiritual life of the

campus, and its success brought Christian

evangelists from all over the world to find

out what was happening on a backwater

campus that had been paralyzed by strife.



After Penn State, Frank went to China in 1917

where an honest conversation with a young

Sam Shoemaker helped Sam to tell him, 'I have

been a pious fraud, pretending to serve God

but actually keeping all the trump cards in

my own hands. Now I've told Him how sorry I am,

and I trust you'll forgive me for harboring

ill will against you. This sprang up the moment

you used that word sin!'



Buchman said that he freely forgave him. 'Now

what's the next step?' Shoemaker asked. The

next step was making amends to Sam's Bible

study class. The trouble was, Shoemaker told

his Chinese students, he disliked China. That

admission produced such a profound spiritual

experience in Shoemaker that it led to his

working closely with Buchman for the next

twenty-one years and brought the revolution

of 'First Century Christianity' (later known

as the Oxford Group) to people worldwide.



The message of personal revolution was

transmitted by one 'informed Christian' sharing

with another and by inviting people to 'house

parties.' If you have ever attended an AA

convention or round up you have experienced an

Oxford Group house party. Speakers were brought

in from a variety of places to share their

experience, strength and hope in both large

speaker meetings and small special interest

meetings. Men would tell their stories in

men's meetings; women in women's; there were

even forums for drug addicts, overeaters, and

drunks. At these gatherings, both speakers

and experienced members would be available

for 'personal interviews' where sharing and

surrender could take place. Then people would

be encouraged to make restitution and have a

daily 'quiet time' to receive inspiration on

how to conduct their lives.



When he was pressed for a definition of sin,

Buchman said, 'What is a sin for one person may

not be a sin for another. The true definition

of sin is that it is something that separates

you from God or from your fellows.'



In 1922, Jim Newton, a young salesman with a

taste for fast living, followed a group of

attractive young women into a hotel ballroom

thinking they were going to a dance. To his

dismay he found himself in an Oxford Group

house party at the Toy Town Tavern in

Winchengton, Massachusetts, where he heard

a message that changed his life. Buchman

referred Newton to Shoemaker who helped Newton

take stock of his life, surrender, make

restitution, and start to live a 'guided life.'

If you wish to know the Oxford Group technique

of guidance read pages 85-87 in the book

Alcoholics Anonymous.



A few years later, Jim Newton was trying to

help Bud F., the alcoholic son of his employer,

Harvey F., to change. Unable to help his

friend, Jim introduced Bud to his mentor,

Samuel Shoemaker. Sam, who had a remarkable

gift bringing people to make a decision, went

through the process with Bud who immediately

lost his obsession to drink, made amends to

his father and wife, and returned to the good

graces of his family.



Harvey F. was so impressed with the change in

his son that he convinced his fellow industri-

alists in Akron, Ohio, to help underwrite an

Oxford Group house party held in January 1933

at the Mayflower Hotel. Buchman and his team

were welcomed by the Rev. Walter Tunks, a

close friend of the F. family; also in

attendance were Henrietta Seiberling and

T. Henry and Clarace Williams who were to

become the founders of the West Hills meeting

of the Oxford Group in Akron.



Also in 1933, Shoemaker's ministry at Calvary

Church in New York City's Gramercy Park was

a hub of Oxford Group activity. There were

Oxford Group meetings held three times a week

at Calvary Church where people shared the

life changes they had discovered from applying

the Oxford Group principles. He also founded

the Calvary Mission, which was a hostel for

indigent alcoholic men.



Many important families had ties to this

Calvary Church, among them the H. family whose

eldest son Rowland was described by Bill W.

as 'a business man who had ability, good

sense and high character ... who had

floundered from one sanitarium to another.'

Rowland had returned from Europe after another

attempt to get his life in order after consult-

ing with Dr. Carl Jung. Rowland was drinking

and going to Oxford Group meetings at Calvary

Church. Among the people whom he met at

Calvary was Vic Kitchen, author of I Was a

Pagan (published in 1934), which described

his release from alcoholism, drug addiction,

and 'anything that gave me pleasure, power

or applause' in the Oxford Group. While on a

business trip to Detroit, Rowland read the

book, identified at depth, and as Shoemaker

said, 'had a change right there on the train.'

Rowland stopped drinking, reconciled with

his family, made restitution for questionable

business dealings, became active with the

Oxford Group businessmen'

s team, spoke at

meetings and encouraged others to find what

he had found.



One of the many people Rowland touched was an

old childhood friend, Edwin 'Ebby' T., who was

about to be locked up as a chronic inebriate.

Rowland, whose alcohol problem was well known,

convinced the judge to release Ebby into his

care. Two weeks later, Ebby was speaking at

Oxford Group meetings around Vermont, and after

a couple of weeks with Rowland (who had all of

six months in the group), the freshly sober

Ebby moved into Calvary Mission in New York

City and became active there.



Sober six weeks, Ebby was inspired to find

another old school friend, Bill W., who was

known to be in awful shape. Bill could not get

the change in Ebby out of his mind for he knew

his friend was a hopeless drunk like himself,

yet was sober. A few days after that, Bill

went to see Ebby at the Calvary Mission, gave

an impassioned, albeit drunken testimony from

the podium and soon after landed in Townes

Hospital. Ebby visited him there and

reacquainted Bill with the steps of the

Oxford Group whereupon Bill had his profound

white light experience, lost his compulsion to

drink and was seized with a desire to pass on

his experience to others.



When Bill was released, he and Lois immediately

started attending Oxford Group meetings at

Calvary Church and had frequent contact with

Sam Shoemaker. Lois said that they went to a

minimum of three meetings a week and attended

house parties during the first three years of

Bill's sobriety.



Six months after sobering up, Bill went to

Akron, Ohio, on a business venture that failed.

When he found himself about to enter the bar

at the same Mayflower Hotel where the Oxford

Group had met, he started searching for an to

help. That moment of desperation led him to

the Rev. Walter Tunks and ultimately to

Henrietta Seiberling who knew just the man.



A local proctologist, who thought he was a

closet drinker, had been attending the West

Hill Oxford Group meeting for two years with

his wife, his problem becoming progressively

worse. The Doctor later described his

impression of the West Hills Group, 'I was

thrown in with a crowd of people ....

I sensed that they had something I did not

have, from which I might readily profit. I

learned that it was something of a spiritual

nature, which did not appeal to me very much,

but I thought it could do no harm.'



Bill W. met with Bob S. (lovingly referred to

as Dr. Bob) on Mother's Day 1935. Bob stopped

drinking abruptly. Though he accepted Bill's

description of alcoholism as a fatal illness

and the Oxford Group steps as the solution,

Bob believed that making restitution to those

he had harmed would destroy his practice and

put his family further at risk.



A short time later, Bob drank again and was

completely demoralized. On the way to perform

a surgery, Bill steadied his friend's hand

with a bottle of beer and a 'goofball.'

Before entering the hospital, Bob told Bill,

'I am going to go through with it.' That

afternoon Bob did not return home. His wife,

Anne, and Bill were filled with dread that

Bob had gone on another binge. When Dr. Bob

returned late that night, he told his

frightened loved ones that he had been making

restitution to people to whom he had been

too afraid to admit his alcoholism. Bob S.

never took another drink.



AA's anniversary is not the day Bill W.

stopped drinking, nor the day that he met

Dr. Bob, but the day that Bob stopped

drinking and made his amends.



From 100 years ago in Keswick, to 73 years ago

in Akron, to this very moment; women and men

are proving the validity of their own personal

spiritual awakening by making amends for their

past wrongs, making restitution and rectifying

their errors.



Frank Buchman's metamorphosis was remarkable.

He developed a program for personal change

that affected homes and nations. It is a

practical program of action using the four

standards of absolute honesty, purity,

unselfishness and love. Over the past one

hundred years, Buchman's vision has been

transmitted under different names: First

Century Christian Movement, the Oxford Group,

Moral Re-Armament, and since 2001, Initiatives

of Change, which continues to heal the wounds

of history by building trust across the

world's divides.



Without Frank Buchman, those of us in today's

many anonymous programs would have no 12 steps

and no freedom from bondage. His spiritual

awakening and the action that followed indeed

launched a million amends and produced many

millions of transformed lives.


0 -1 0 0
5113 Bill Lash
RE: Big Book concordance index history? Big Book concordance index history? 7/14/2008 1:43:00 PM


Please go to:



http://justloveaudio.com/resources.php?cat_id=4



& click on "Big Book Name and Date References."



http://justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_References.pd\

f




Also, Cliff B. & the Primary Purpose Group

in Dallas is already aware of this resource.


0 -1 0 0
5114 Fiona Dodd
Ignatia''s birthplace PHOTOS Ignatia''s birthplace PHOTOS 7/13/2008 12:05:00 PM


PHOTOS: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html



This morning, I stood in the ruins of the

birthplace of Sr Ignatia in the company of my

old AA buddy Murdy O'B whose detective work

over the past year has been extraordinary to

say the least. We have always felt there was

something erroneous in regards Shanvalley,

Ballyheane being given as her birthplace.

Firstly all family records were in the church

in Castlebar and yet there was a church in

Ballyheane. Secondly there were no folk

memories of the family and folk memories go

back a long, long time in Ireland. Thirdly,

with such large Irish families there had to

be some family connection left behind.



So many a night on our way to and from meetings

we discussed it and last year Murdy spotted a

death notice in the paper one day which stated

Shanvalley, Burren and the name of the deceased

was a member of the Neary family and Ignatia's

mother was Barbara Neary. The registering

church for Shanvalley, Burren is Castlebar

and the pieces began to fall into place.

Murdy took a trip up to Shanvalley and it's

a townland populated by Neary's and he was

shown what is known to this day as Gavin's

Field and the ruins of the house still standing

there. The extended Neary family still live

there and one member in her 80's shared many

a memory.



It was a strange feeling standing there this

morning after an AA meeting and gazing around

imagining what it was like at the end of the

1800's. The boreen to the houses there was

only paved in the 1980's and along with the

ruins of Gavin's house stand the ruins of

many more bearing witness to the emigration

which was a fact of life here in the west of

Ireland for so long.



Fiona



<fionadodd@eircom.net>

(fionadodd at eircom.net)



PHOTOS: http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html


0 -1 0 0
5115 JOHN WIKELIUS
Publication dates of AA pamphlets current and obsolete Publication dates of AA pamphlets current and obsolete 7/14/2008 10:40:00 PM


I am seeking information regardng the date when

the original pamphlet was published, in the

case of the standard AA published pamphlets.



Some of my older pamphlets do not have a date

of origination.



I am putting together a display of AA pamphlets

and showing the changes over the years.


0 -1 0 0
5116 corafinch
Re: Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship Serenity Prayer faces challenge on authorship 7/15/2008 7:07:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss <james.bliss@...> wrote:

>

> The article appears to be very incomplete.

> What article (at least one or two) and what

> book did Shapiro find. Seems that there

> should be the ability to verify the sources

> one way or the other and provide additional

> background as to who, what and where.

>

> Jim

>

Here is what I have--he seems to have the same ones although possibly additional

ones as

well. The book he mentions I have not seen.



Syracuse (New York) Herald, January 16, 1936: "We need new faith in our highest

ideals,"

says Mildred Pinkerton, executive secretary of the Syracuse YWCA. She calls

attention to

new determinations, new interests in her annual report just submitted. Quotes

the

prayer--"Oh God, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to

accept what

cannot be helped, and insight to know the one from the other."



(This is the caption to a photo. The present director of the Syracuse YWCA was

able to

find the written record of this annual report for me, but Ms. Pinkerton's

remarks are not

recorded in it.)



Ada (Oklahoma) Evening News, February 19, 1939: Mrs. Edyth Thomas Wallace, home

counselor of Oklahoma City's public schools, spoke at a P.T.A. meeting: . . .The

prayer,

said the speaker, of both parents should be "Oh God , give me serenity to accept

that

which cannot be changed, give me courage to change that which can be changed and

wisdom to tell the one from the other."



Lowell (Massachusetts) Sun, April 16, 1940: At a women's club meeting a speaker,

Mrs.

Hildreth, ended her remarks with this statement, "God give me serenity to accept

things I

cannot change; the courage to change those I can; and the wisdom to know the

difference."



Valley Star-Monitor Herald, Brownsville, Texas, August 17, 1941:In a talk at a

women's

club meeting summarizing the 29th annual Farmer's Comprehensive Short Course, a

poem

said to have been by Miss Mildred Horton, state home demonstration agent, was

repeated:

"God, give me the courage to change/ What must be altered;/ Serenity to accept/

What

cannot be helped/ And insight to determine/ One from the other."



Indiana (Pennsylvania) Evening Gazette, December 5, 1941: Rose Cologne, visiting

professor at Pennsylvania State College, ended a talk with a recommendation that

college

people try to develop "courage to change that which can be changed, serenity to

face that

which cannot be changed, and insight to tell one from the other."



Hillsboro (Ohio) Press Gazette, April 24, 1942, in a Sunday School column: "Oh

God, give

me serenity to accept what cannot be changed, the courage to change what can be

changed; and the wisdom to know one form the other."



These are from actual photographic copies of the papers--I don't see how there

could be

any mistake or trickery involved. OTOH, nothing has really changed about the

history of

the prayer, in view of the fact that one biographer is already on record saying

that Niebuhr

wrote the prayer in 1934.


0 -1 0 0
5117 shakey1aa
Which printings of the 1st edition BB had red covers? Which printings of the 1st edition BB had red covers? 7/15/2008 11:50:00 AM


In this post it mentions that only the 1st ed

1st printing has a red cover. On e-bay

currently there is a book for sale that says

it has a red cover. Does anyone know if there

were some red covers in this 2nd printing or

if the book was rebound? It also has gold

lettering on the book and the spine???



Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

going to National Archives Conv in Niagara Falls NY



- - - -



> Message 2258 from Jim Blair <jblair@...>

> (jblair at videotron.ca)

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2258

>

> Here are the changes made to the first 16 printings.

>

> The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous - Changes to the First Edition

>

> 1st Edition - 1st Printing

> - Title states "ONE HUNDRED MEN."

> - 29 personal stories.

> - Price 3.50$.

> - Cover is red, only printing in red.

> - Story 'Ace Full - Seven - Eleven' deleted.

> - Jacket spine and front flap do not have a print number.

> - Arabic numbers start at 'Doctor's Opinion'.

> - 400 arabic numbered pages (8 roman).

> - Stories: 10 East Coast, 18 Midwest, 1 West Coast.

> - P234-L27, typo. L26 duplicated as L27.

> - Published by Works Publishing Company.

>

> 1st Edition - 2nd Printing

> - Title states "TWO THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - 28 personal stories

> - Cover changed to navy blue, some light blue.

> - Gold lettering deleted from cover, remained on spine.

> - Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.

> - Jacket spine and front flap has print number.

> - Stayed at 400 arabic pages (8 roman)

> - Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.

> - P25-L23, 80 of us to 500 of us.

> - P25-L26, 40-80 persons to 50-200 persons.

> - P63-L13, 100 people to Hundreds of People

> - P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.

> - P72-L04, Result of These Steps to Those.

> - P175-L23, Many Hundreds to 500.

> - P234-L27, Typo corrected, 126 not repeated.

> - P391-L01, Added "Now We Are Two Thousand."

> - P397-L01, Moved "Foundation" here from p399.

>

> 1st Edition - 3rd Printing

> - Title changed - "SIX THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Personal stories remain the same thru 1:16.

> - Cover changed to light blue.

> - Reduced in thickness 1/8 and height 1/16.

> - P25-L23, 500 of us to 1000 of us.

> - P27-L01, 100 Men to Hundreds of Men.

> - P26-L13, Sober 3years to sober 5 years.

> - P264-L13, (no time) to sober 5 years.

> - P281-L09, 9 months to past 4 tears.

> - P391-L01, Now we are 2,000 to 6,000.

> - P392-L19, 3,000 letters to 12,000 letters.

> - P393-L06, Increased 20 fold to 60 fold.

> - P393-L12, 5,000 by 01/42 to 8,000 by 01/43.

> - P393-L24, 9 Groups in Cleveland to 25.

> - P393-L24, 500 members in Cleveland to I,000.

> - P393-L26, 1,000 Non-A.A. people to 2,000.

> - P398-L03, Touching to Touching Nationally.

>

> 1st Edition - 4th Printing

> - Title states "EIGHT THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Cover changed to green, last 1,500 navy blue.

> - Piv-L03, Post Box 657 to Box 658.

> - P25-L28, Added foot note "Number of Localities for A.A."

> - P27-L01, 100s of Men to 1000s of Men and Women.

> - P59-L25, Added foot note "Please See Appendix II."

> - P168-L03, 6 years ago to 8 years ago.

> - P152-L02, have been there to has been there.

> - P152-L22, The bank were doing to was doing.

> - P391-L24, Religious content to spiritual.

> - P393-L12, 8,000 by 01/43 to 10,000 by 01/44.

> - P398-L09, Works Publishing Company to Inc.

> - P398-L10, organized to originally organized.

> - P398-L10, members to older members

> - P398-L11, Added 49 gave up stock.

> - P398-L16, this book, to this book.

> - P398-L16, send money to please send money.

>

> 1st Edition - 5th Printing

> - Title states "Ten Thousand Men and Women."

> - Cover changed back to light blue, some navy.

> - Last Big Book in size.

> - Piv-L04, New York City to New York City (7).

> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 270 localities."

> - P393-L06, Increased 60 fold to 100 fold.

> - P393-L12, 10,000 by 01/44 to 12,000 by 01/45.

> - P394-L14, Last 2 years to last 5 years.

>

> 1st Edition - 6th Printing

> - Title states "TEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Cover changed back to Navy blue. (same as today).

> - Reduced in thickness by 3/8 inch.

> - Piv-L04, New York City (7) to (17).

> - P397-L08, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.

> - P397-L10, 4 non-A.A. Trustees to 8 non-A.A.

> - P398-L21, New York City(7) to (17).

>

> 1st Edition - 7th Printing

> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced in thickness 3/16 and width 3/8 inches.

> - Pii-L01, Added "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

> - Piv-L02, Works Publishing Company to Inc.

> - P1-L13, six years ago to 1934.

> - P07-L29, 2 years ago deleted.

> - P09-L04, More than 3 years ago to many years.

> - P25-L28, Foot note "A.A. now in 385 Localities."

> - P175-L22, "Cleveland" footnote deleted.

> - P264-L18, 5 years since to in 1937

> - P273-L22, one year ago to long ago.

> - P281-L09, Past nine months to few years.

> - P331-L14, for 13 months to many years.

> - P392-L19, 12,000 letters to innumerable.

> - P393-L12, 12,000 by 1/45 to thousands a year.

> - P397-L07, Trustees to 4 A.A. Trustees.

>

> 1st Edition - 8th Printing

> - Title states "FOURTEEN THOUSAND MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced thickness ¼, width 1/16, height 1 inch.

> - P11-L01, Has "WARTIME PRINTING" notice.

>

> 1st Edition - 9th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased thickness 1/8, width 1/8, height 3/8 inches.

> - P323-L20, Two years to several years.

>

> 1st Edition - 10th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - P154-L30, Abberations to Aberrations.

>

> 1st Edition - 11th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.

> - P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

> - P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

> - P178-L20, Him to HIM.

> - P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

> - P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding

> - P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.

>

> 1st Edition - 12th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Decreased height by 1/16.

>

> 1st Edition - 13th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced in width 1/16, height 1/8 .

>

> 1st Edition - 14th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Reduced in thickness 1/16.

>

> 1st Edition - 15th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased in height by 1/16.

> - Published by A.A. PUBLISHING, INC.

>

> 1st Edition - 16th Printing

> - Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

> - Increased width 1/16, decreased height 1/16.

>

> Last printing of the First Edition.

>


0 -1 0 0
5118 jenny andrews
Re: Fifth steps in early AA Fifth steps in early AA 7/15/2008 6:31:00 AM


I hope to shed light rather than generate heat.

Terry can speak for himself but I do not

"advocate revisionist speculation"; I was

merely asking a question, and I'm glad the

moderator took a less censorious view than

Art. There is a certain amount of geriatric

egg-sucking going on here. Many of us have

studied the sources, both AA and non-AA, e.g.,

Not God (Kurtz), Frank Buchman (Lean), Getting

Better (Robertson), Changed by Grace (Chesnut),

Bill W (Thomsen), Bill W (Hartigan), Twice

Born Men, More Twice Born Men, Broken

Earthenware (Begbie), New Wine (Mel B), By

the power of God (Dick B), Sister Ignatia

(Darrah), as well as Alcoholics Anonymous

Comes of Age, Pass It On, Dr Bob and the Good

Oldtimers, Grapevine digital archive etc., etc.



Form criticism and hermeneutics are vital to a

fully informed understanding of the text, but

in the old saying, why look in the crystal ball

when you can read the book? The Big Book says

"Here are the Steps WE took which are suggested

as a program of recovery (emphasis added)." Now,

does that or does that not include Dr Bob and

Bill W. and the rest of the "first 100"?



If we are to believe Art's convoluted caveats

the Book should say, "We did not take these

steps exactly as they are written here but

this is how we recommend them to you." But

of course it says no such thing. The early

AA's clearly believed they had taken the steps

in the way they passed them on to the rest of

us - either that or they were being dishonest.



Bill wrote (of the original six steps): "...

our literature would have to be as clear and

comprehensive as possible. Our steps would have

to be more explicit. There must be not be a

single loophole through which a rationalising

alcoholic could wiggle out... Thus we could

better get the distant reader over a barrel,

and at the same time we might be able to

broaden and deepen the spiritual implications

of our whole presentation..."



The following pages in Alcoholics Anonymous

Comes of Age record the struggles of the early

fellowship in finally agreeing the 12 Steps.

And even at the end of the process there were

dissenters, viz: "For a while it looked as if

we would bog down into permanent disagreement.

Despairing of satisfying everyone, I finally

asked that I might be the final judge of what

the book said. Seeing that we would get nowhere

without such a point of decision, MOST of the

group agreed..." (again, emphasis added).



Is it anywhere recorded that Dr Bob did not

agree with the 12 Steps as they were finally

agreed? If he concurred then he most surely

took Step Five, with or without an AA member,

but as I said in my original posting there

seems to be no record of it.



The foreword to the first edition of the Big

Book (1939) says, inter alia, "The only

requirement for membership (of AA) is an

honest desire to stop drinking." So there is

no requirement on anyone to take any of the

Steps, including number five.



- - - -



To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Fri, 11 Jul

2008 20:41:38 -0500Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Fifth steps in early AA



Dear Laurie and Terry



With all due respect, you are advocating revisionist speculation not AA history.

AAHistoryLovers is supposed to focus on fact-based information as opposed to

editorial-based imagination. Bill W sobered up in December 1934. Dr Bob sobered

up in June 1935. The 12 Steps were first drafted in December 1938. When Bill W

sobered up there was no such thing even remotely approaching the notion of doing

the equivalent of a "5th Step" with "people outside of AA." There was no AA. The

"schoolmate" who visited Bill in the hospital was Ebby T. Bill considered him to

be his sponsor throughout his life (even though Ebby had his difficulties

staying sober). The idea of alluding to Ebby as "people outside AA" is

absurd.Bill W met Father Dowling in December 1940 at the 24th St Club in NY

City. He reputedly was Bill W's "spiritual sponsor" throughout his life.

Although he was not an alcoholic, to portray Fr Dowling as "people outside AA"

isalso absurd. He started AA in St Louis, MO. When Dr Bob had his last drink

there was no such thing as "Steps." Both of you seem to be attempting to

retrofit what exists today to something that didn't exist back then. Dr Bob

joined the Oxford Group in 1933. This was approximately two years before he met

Bill W. During the first few years of its existence, the AA Fellowship was

affiliated with the Oxford Group in both NY and Akron. CoreOxford Group

principles consisted of the "Four Absolutes" of honesty, unselfishness, purity

and love - the "Five C's" (confidence, confession, conviction, conversion and

continuance) and the "Five Procedures" (1. Give in to God, 2. Listen to God's

direction, 3. Check guidance, 4. Restitutionand 5. Sharing for witness and

confession). Dr Bob would certainly not have been a stranger to practicing the

principle of "Confession." Henrietta Sieberling organized an OG meeting at the

home of T Henry and Clarace Williams in Akron specifically to help Dr Bob with

hisdrinking. Dr Bob confessed openly about his drinking but could not stop.The

OG never had anything that they called or considered to be Steps. The idea and

evolution of Steps derived in the latter 1930s from what was called the

"alcoholic squads" of the OG in Akron and NY. It initially took the formof a

word-of-mouth 6-Step program. Various versions of the 6 Steps can be found in

(1) Earl T's Big Book Story "He Sold Himself Short" pg 263 4th edition (2) "AA

Comes of Age" pg 160 and "Pass It On" pg 197 and (3) a July 1953 Grapevine

Article titled "A Fragment of History" which can also befound in "The Language

of the Heart" pg 200. In various forms, up to December 1938, the equivalent of

what later became Steps 5 and 10 were stated as either: (1) "Confession" or (2)

"We confessed or shared our shortcomings with another person in confidence" or

(3) "We got honest with another person, in confidence." There was no "admitted

to God" and "to ourselves."It may sound like AA heresy, but the Big Book is not

the be-all and end-all on the Steps. When Bill W wrote the bulk of the Big Book

basic text in 1938 he was in his fourth year of sobriety, there were

approximately 100 members and there were two groups. When Bill wrote the 12&12

in 1953 he was in his 19th year of sobriety, there were approximately 6,000

groups and 128,000 members. That's a great deal of accumulated experience over

time. In the 12&12, on the 5th Step, Bill W suggests:"Our next problem will be

to discover the person in whom we are to confide. Here we ought to take much

care, remembering that prudence is a virtue which carries a high rating. Perhaps

we shall need to share with this person facts about ourselves which no others

ought to know. We shall want to speak with someone who is experienced, who not

only has stayed dry but has been able tosurmount other serious difficulties.

Difficulties, perhaps, like our own. This person may turn out to be one's

sponsor, but not necessarily so. If you have developed a high confidence in him,

and his temperament and problems are close to your own, then such a choice will

be good. Besides, your sponsor already has the advantage of knowing something

about your case."



CheersArthur


0 -1 0 0
5119 dave_landuyt
Hazelden revisions: Little Red Book and Twenty-Four Hours Hazelden revisions: Little Red Book and Twenty-Four Hours 7/18/2008 1:37:00 AM


Does anyone have information on why, and in

what way, Hazelden revised subsequent editions

of "The Little Red Book" and "Twenty-Four Hours

a Day"?



Thanks for any input

Dave


0 -1 0 0
5120 bikergaryg@aol.com
Re: Which printings of the 1st edition BB had red covers? Which printings of the 1st edition BB had red covers? 7/16/2008 1:02:00 PM


From <bikergaryg@aol.com>

(bikergaryg at aol.com)



From my limited understanding I believe that

a few second printings of the first edition

had red covers. the first printing was 1939

and the second printing 1941.



in the wind

Gary Govier



- - - - -



From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com

(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)



Hi Mike,



eBay item 150269984282 finished up selling for

a good price. Would still like the book to be

checked by a professional.



Earl Husband the late archivist from Chicago

area had a copy listed a couple of years ago.

The only other copy I have heard of was in a

Danish collector's possession back in 2001.



The story with the latest edition is that

5000 red bindings were ordered with the

First printing and 4,730 were actually used

and the remainder used with the Second

printing.



I have no way of verifying this. A bookbinding

expert would be the only person who could help.

The dilemna of course is having one to look at.

Perhaps I should mention that I bought my

copy of the First from Earl Husband and I have

some doubts about whether it has been rebound.

It looks too good! But then I remind myself

that my middle name is Thomas.



In fellowship - Dudley - From the Emerald Isles



- - - -



Original message #5117 from Shakey Mike Gwirtz

<shakey1aa@yahoo.com> (shakey1aa at yahoo.com)



Message 2258 from Jim Blair says that only the

1st ed 1st printing has a red cover. On e-bay

currently there is a book for sale that says

it has a red cover. Does anyone know if there

were some red covers in this 2nd printing or

if the book was rebound? It also has gold

lettering on the book and the spine???


0 -1 0 0
5121 Cherie'' H.
Re: Which printings of the 1st edition BB had red covers? Which printings of the 1st edition BB had red covers? 7/18/2008 8:05:00 AM


There is a 50th Anniversary Australian edition

that has a red cover and looks like you

described. It is a commemorative Edition

printed in 1995. I have a copy that was sent

to me by a friend in Australia. I am now told

that this is a rare book, even though many

were printed, not many can be found today,

and I have heard they sell for quite a bit

on ebay, but there's nothing in the world

would make me give up mine.



AA Hugs

Cherie'

Mt. Clemens, MI

DOS 04/26/01


0 -1 0 0
5122 jenny andrews
RE: Spiritual not religious Spiritual not religious 7/15/2008 11:56:00 AM


"The two words (spirituality and religion)

can be used interchangeably ... Attempts to

draw a contrasting distinction between the

two words rest far more in the secularism of

contemporary AA rather than in AA's historical

roots."



Really? Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (pp.

162ff my version): "... the hot debate about

the Twelve Steps and the (Big) book's contents

was doubled and redoubled. There were

conservative, liberal and radical viewpoints

... Fitz thought the book ought to be

Christian in the doctrinal sense of the word

and that it should say so. He was in favor

of using Biblical terms and expressions to

make this clear ... The liberals were the

largest contingent and they had no objection

to the word 'God' throughout the book but

they were dead set against any other

theological proposition. They would have

nothing to do with doctrinal issues (i.e.

religion). SPIRITUALITY, YES. BUT RELIGION,

NO -- POSITIVELY NO (emphasis added)."



(Circa 1938 - historical enough?)



- - - -



To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Sun, 6 Jul 2008

21:00:18 -0500Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Spiritual not religious



Hi JohnRegrettably there is much repeated in AA that has no basis in fact. Early

AA was very "pro religion" but it never attempted to project itself as a

religion. When too few words are cited it is usually at the expense of context.

And I don't agree at all with the context you are portraying. This is rather

long reply since you are seeking citations.From my own investigations it seems

that attempts to draw a distinction between the words "spiritual" and

"religious" are flawed and sophomoric. The two words can be used interchangeably

based on just about any dictionary. Do a search on the internet for the text

string "definition of spiritual."Almost every return that derives from a

dictionary will define the word "spiritual" as "religious" or "of religion" or

"of the soul" (spirit). Attempts to draw a contrasting distinction between the

two words rest farmore in the secularism of contemporary AA rather than in AA's

historical roots. Many of AA's early historical friends were members of the

clergy and their influence was profound. Bill W often stated that AA's two best

friendswere medicine and religion.Over the past two decades the rise of

secularism has spawned the notion of the words "religion" or "religious" to

almost be pejoratives. I find this very disturbing. Also be careful to not be

too selective in the sparse citing of Bill W and the Big Book -- both cite many

favorable descriptions of"religion" or "religious." For example:From Bill W's

address to the 1960 National Clergy Conference On Alcoholism:(1) "Excellencies

and Friends: My thanks to Father Ray for his introduction. He has us off to an

appropriate start. This hour with you is most meaningful to me and I trust it

will be to you and to A.A. as a whole. Every thoughtful A.A. realizes that the

divine grace, which has always flowed through the Church, is the ultimate

foundation on which AA rests. Our spiritual origins are Christian ..."(2) "...

It now occurs to me that it may be profitable if we were to review the origins

of AA; to take a look at some of its under-lying mechanisms -- an interior look

as it were. Of course I am here reflecting my own views, and some of these are

bound to be speculative. At any rate, here they are.Though AA roots are in the

centuries-old Christian community, there seems little doubt that in an immediate

sense our fellowship began in the office of the much-respected Dr. Carl Jung of

Zurich ..."(3) "... Now a final thought. Many a non-alcoholic clergyman asks

these questions about Alcoholics Anonymous: "Why do clergymen so often fail with

alcoholics, when AA so often succeeds? Is it possible that the grace of AA is

superior to that of the Church? Is Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion,

acompetitor of the Church?If these misgivings had real substance, they would be

serious indeed. But, as I have already indicated, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot in

the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no theological

content,except that which speaks of "God as we under-stand Him." This means that

each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or creed he

may have. Therefore there isn't the slightest interference with thereligious

views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral

attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character.

Therefore, as far as they go, the Steps are good Christianity; indeed they are

good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than

once.Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its members:

No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet membership

conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system of

authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least

competitive with the Church. At the center of our society we have a Board

ofTrustees. This body is accountable yearly to a Conference of elected

Delegates. These Delegates represent the conscience and desire of AA as regards

functional or service matters. Our Tradition contains an emphaticinjunction that

these Trustees may never constitute themselves as a government -- they are to

merely provide certain services that enable AA as a whole to function. The same

principles apply at our group and area level.Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own

religious views. For whatever they may be worth, I have my own. But both of us

have gone heavily on record to the effect that these personal views and

preferences can never under anyconditions be injected into the AA program as a

working part of it. AA is a sort of spiritual kindergarten, but that is all.

Never could it be called a religion.Nor should any clergyman, because he does

not happen to be a channel of grace to alcoholics, feel that he or his Church is

lacking in grace. No real question of grace is involved at all - it is just a

question of who can besttransmit God's abundance. It so happens that we who have

suffered alcoholism, we who can identify so deeply with other sufferers, are the

ones usually best suited for this parti-cular work. Certainly no clergyman ought

to feel any inferiority just because he himself is not an alcoholic! Then, as I

have already emphasized, AA has actually derived all of its principles, directly

or indirectly, from the Church.Ours, gentlemen, is a debt of gratitude far

beyond any ability of mine to express. On behalf of members everywhere, I give

you our deepest thanks for the warm understanding and the wonderful co-operation

that you haveeverywhere afforded us. Please also have my gratitude for the

privilege of being with you this morning. This is an hour that I shall remember

always ..."From the Q&A that followed Bill's address:(4) "... When these Steps

were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed indeed. Some argued

that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our agnostic contingent

there were loud cries of too much"God." Others objected to an expression, which

I had included which suggested getting on one's knees while in prayer. I heavily

resisted these objections for months. But finally did take out my statement

about a suitable prayer-ful posture and I finally went along with that now

tremendously important expression, "God as we understand Him" - this expression

having been coined, I think, by one of our former atheist members. This was

indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join AA who would

have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious training and those

of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It made one's religion

the business of the AA member himself and not that of his society.That AA's

Twelve Steps have since been in such high esteem by the Church, that members of

the Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention to the similarity between them

and the Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for ourgreat wonder and gratitude indeed

..."(5) From the Foreword to the Second Edition Big Book:"... Another reason for

the wide acceptance of A.A. was the ministration of friends -- friends in

medicine, religion, and the press, together with innumerable others who became

our able and persistent advocates. Without such support, A.A. could have made

only the slowest progress. Some of the recommendations of A.A.'s early medical

and religious friends will be found further on in this book. Alcoholics

Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any particular

medical point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as

well as with the men of religion. Alcohol being no respecter of persons, we are

an accurate cross section of America, and in distant lands, the same democratic

evening-up process is now going on. By personal religious affiliation, we

include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and

Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women ..."(6) From Bill's Story"... The door

opened and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There was something about

his eyes. He was inexplicably different. What had happened?I pushed a drink

across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I wondered what had

got into the fellow. He wasn't himself. "Come, what's this all about?" I

queried. He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly,he said, "I've got

religion ..."(7) From We Agnostics"... We, who have traveled this dubious path,

beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. We have learned

that whatever the human frailties of various faiths may be, those faiths have

given purpose and direction to millions. People of faith have a logical idea of

what life is all about. Actually, we used to have no reasonable conception

whatever. We used to amuse our-selves by cynically dissecting spiritualbeliefs

and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons

of all races, colors, and creeds were demon-strating a degree of stability,

happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves ..."(8) From Into

Action"... We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long or

happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the

person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those

of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and

of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is

to receive it. Though we have no religious connection, wemay still do well to

talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a

person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes

encounter people who do not understand alcoholics ...""... If circumstances

warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we

belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion,

we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select

and memorize a few set prayers whichemphasize the principles we have been

discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be

obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious

people are right. Makeuse of what they offer ..."(9) From Working With

Others"... Your prospect may belong to a religious denomination. His religious

education and training may be far superior to yours. In that case he is going to

wonder how you can add anything to what he already knows. But he will be curious

to learn why his own convictions have not worked and why yours seem to work so

well. He may be an example of the truth that faith alone is insufficient. To be

vital, faith must be accompanied by self sacrifice and unselfish, constructive

action. Let him see that you are not there to instruct him in religion. Admit

that he probably knows more about it than you do, but call to his attention the

fact that however deep his faith and knowledge, he could not have applied it or

he would not drink. Perhaps your story will help him see where he has failed to

practice the very precepts he knows so well. We represent no particular faith or

denomination. We are dealing only with general principles common to most

denominations ..."(10) From The Family Afterward"... Alcoholics who have derided

religious people will be helped by such contacts. Being possessed of a spiritual

experience, the alcoholic will find he has much in common with these people,

though he may differ with them on many matters. If he does not argue about

religion, he will make new friends and is sure to find new avenues of usefulness

and pleasure. He and his family can be a bright spot in such congregations. He

may bring new hope and new courage to many a priest, minister, or rabbi, who

gives his all tominister to our troubled world. We intend the foregoing as a

helpful suggestion only. So far as we are concerned, there is nothing obligatory

about it. As non-denominational people, we cannot make up others' minds forthem.

Each individual should consult his own conscience ..."========In just about

every mention of "not religious" it seems that Bill's context was that AA is not

affiliated with any specific religious denomination and matters of religion are

solely up to each individual member to define for themselves -- Bill very

definitely was not attempting to distance himself from religion. Two more

citations that might be interesting concerning the Oxford Group and its

influence on the principles embodied in the Steps. In a July 14, 1949 letter to

the Rev Sam Shoemaker Bill W wrote "So far as I am concerned, and Dr Smith too,

the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual wellspring at the beginning."

In AA Comes of Age (pg 39) Bill also wrote: "Early AA got its ideas of

self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done

and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam

Shoemaker their former leader in America and from nowhere else."



CheersArthur


0 -1 0 0
5123 Dick
How many copies of the Big Book printed in each printing? How many copies of the Big Book printed in each printing? 7/17/2008 9:35:00 PM


I know I've seen this before, but I can't

find it by searching the archives, and

I can't find it anywhere else on line ....

Can anyone tell me the actual sizes of the

print runs for each of the printings of the

Big Book? Or suggest where I can find them.



Thanx

Dick


0 -1 0 0
5124 Tom Hickcox
Re: Hazelden revisions: Little Red Book and Twenty-Four Hours Hazelden revisions: Little Red Book and Twenty-Four Hours 7/18/2008 5:30:00 PM


At 00:37 7/18/2008, dave_landuyt wrote:



>Does anyone have information on why, and in

>what way, Hazelden revised subsequent editions

>of "The Little Red Book" and "Twenty-Four Hours

>a Day"?

>

> Thanks for any input

> Dave

>

>

>

>------------------------------------





Hazelden took over publication of Richmond Walker's Twenty-Four Hours

a Day book, they say, in 1954. My best guess of the number of

distinct printings they put out between then and the 1975 copyright

is seven. These can be distinguished from each other by the

Hazelden's address, what logo they used, and its location(s). None of

these had a publication date nor a copyright and all had rounded

corners on the covers.



Hazelden came out with a revised edition with a 1975 copyright. Some

of these even have printing numbers and some were printed by other companies.



I won't hazard a guess as to why the changes were made. Most changes

render the book gender neutral. They also used American English

spelling in many cases, correcting Walker's tendency to use British spelling.



I will give a couple of examples.



Entry for April 6, old version: Every alcoholic has a personality

problem. He drinks to escape from life, to counteract a feeling of

loneliness or inferiority, or because of some emotional conflict

within himself, so that he cannot adjust himself to life. His

alcoholism is a symptom of his personality disorder. An alcoholic

cannot stop drinking unless he finds a way to solve his personality

problem. That's why going on the wagon doesn't solve anything. That's

why taking the pledge usually doesn't work.



New version: All alcoholics have personality problems. They drink to

escape from life, to counteract feelings of loneliness or

inferiority, or because of some emotional conflict within them, so

that they cannot adjust themselves to life. Alcoholics cannot stop

drinking unless they find a way to solve their personality problems.

That's why going on the wagon doesn't solve anything. That's why

taking the pledge usually doesn't work.



Entry for May 27, old version: In twelfth-step work, the fifth thing

is continuance. Continuance means our staying with the prospect after

he has started on the new way of living. We must stick with him and

not let him down. We must encourage him to go to meetings regularly

for fellowship and help. He will learn that keeping sober is a lot

easier in the fellowship of others who are trying to do the same

thing. We must continue to help him by going to see him regularly or

telephoning him or writing him so that he doesn't get out of touch

with A.A. Continuance means good sponsorship. Do I care enough about

another alcoholic to continue with him as long as necessary?



New version: In twelfth-step work, the fifth thing is continuance.

Continuance means our staying with prospects after they have started

on the new way of living. We must stick with them and not let them

down. We must encourage them to go to meetings regularly for

fellowship and help. They will learn that keeping sober is a lot

easier in the fellowship of others who are trying to do the same

thing. We must continue to help prospects by going to see them

regularly or telephoning them or writing them so that they don't get

out of touch with A.A. Continuance means good sponsorship. Do I care

enough about other alcoholics to continue with them as long as necessary?

These are typical of the changes made but Hazelden did not change all

the references to male alcoholics. See April 5th for an example of this.



Hazelden took over publishing the Little Red Book some time in the

1960s. The first of the smaller, when compared with the Coll-Webb

printings, format had zip codes with Hazelden's address but did not

have ISBN numbers. That would place publication in the middle 60s.

These had a copyright by Coll-Webb dated 1957. They revised the LRB

at that time so the page references corresponded with the new

pagination of the Second Edition of the Big Book. A very brief

comparison of a dozen or so pages of an early printing and one with a

1970 copyright shows no differences. That is not to say there are no

differences, I just did not find any. I also am not aware of the date

of the current copyright.



There were a number of changes made to the LRB in the first

half-dozen printings from 1946-1950, but the question addressed the

changes Hazelden made.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
5125 Tom Hickcox
Serenity Prayer Revisited Serenity Prayer Revisited 7/24/2008 10:31:00 AM


I have come across another blurb on the

serenity prayer and uses it as an example of

the oral transmission of prayers:



<http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=355>



This appears to be a web site at the

University of Pennsylvania.



It traces ten versions of the prayer and

once again gives no satisfactory answer to

the question of who wrote it and when.



I note once again that Shapiro's work is

based on what can be found on the web and is

thusly limited by that factor, but there

were a lot of versions extant.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



- - - -



http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=355



The serenity memeJuly 14, 2008 @ 1:31 pm

Filed by Benjamin Zimmer under Linguistic history



As reported in the New York Times and Time

Magazine, Yale law librarian and quotation-

hunter extraordinaire Fred Shapiro has

uncovered evidence undermining the long-held

attribution of "The Serenity Prayer" to the

American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr.

Niebuhr's family originally claimed that

he composed the prayer in the summer of 1943,

but Shapiro has uncovered variations on the

theme going back to 1936 in various American

publications. (The first printed attribution

to Niebuhr is actually from 1942.) Shapiro

lays out his evidence in the Yale Alumni

Magazine, followed by a rebuttal by Niebuhr's

daughter Elisabeth Sifton.



What's particularly fascinating about Shapiro's

documentary evidence is how the early citations

all fit a general formula and yet show a

divergence in phrasing reminiscent of the

Telephone game. Regardless of how much claim

her father ultimately has to originating the

prayer, Sifton is correct to point out that

"prayers are presented orally, circulate

orally, and become famous orally long before

they are put on paper." It's clear that by

the time t