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4775 chesbayman56
Significant January Dates in A.A. History Significant January Dates in A.A. History 1/1/2008 1:25:00 PM

Significant January Dates in A.A. History

Jan 1929 - Bill W. wrote third promise in Bible to quit drinking.
Jan 1940 - Akron group moves to new home at King School.
Jan 1944 - Dr. Harry Tiebout's first paper on the subject of
"Alcoholics Anonymous".
Jan 1944 - onset of Bill's 11 years of depression.
Jan 1946 - Readers Digest does a story on AA.
Jan 1948 - 1st A.A. meeting in Japan
Jan 1951 - AA Grapevine publishes memorial issue for Dr Bob.
Jan 1958 - Bill writes article for Grapevine on "Emotional Sobriety".
Jan 1, 1943 - Columbus Dispatch reports 1st Anniversary of Columbus,
Ohio Central Group.
Jan 2, 1889 - Sister Ignatia born, Ballyhane Ireland.
Jan 3, 1939 - First sale of Works Publishing Co stock is recorded.
Jan 4, 1940 - 1st AA group formed in Detroit, Michigan.
Jan 5, 1939 - Dr Bob tells Ruth Hock in a letter that AA has "to get
away from the Oxford Group atmosphere".
Jan 5, 2001 - Chuck C. from Houston died sober in Texas at 38 years
sober.
Jan 6, 2000 - Stephen Poe, compiler of the Concordance to Alcoholics
Anonymous, died.
Jan 8, 1938 - New York AA splits from the Oxford Group.
Jan 10, 1940 - 1st AA meeting not in a home meets at King School,
Akron, Ohio.
Jan 13, 1988 - Dr Jack Norris Chairman/Trustee of AA for 27 years
dies.
Jan 13, 2003 - Dr Earle M sober for 49 years, author of "Physician
Heal Thyself" died.
Jan 15, 1937 - Fitz M brings AA meetings to Washington DC.
Jan 15, 1945 - First AA meeting held in Springfield, Missouri.
Jan 19, 1943 - 1st discussion for starting AA group in Toronto.
Jan 19, 1944 - Wilson's returned from 1st major A.A. tour started in
Oct 24 1943.
Jan 19, 1999 - Frank M., AA Archivist since 1983, died peacefully in
his sleep.
Jan 21, 1954 - Hank P who helped Bill start NY office dies in
Pennington, New Jersey.
Jan 23, 1985 - Bob B. died sober November 11, 2001.
Jan 24, 1918 - Bill marries Lois Burnham in the Swedenborgen Church
in Brookyn Heights.
Jan 24, 1945 - 1st black group St. Louis
Jan. 24, 1971 - Bill W dies at Miami Beach, FL.
Jan 25, 1915 - Dr. Bob marries Anne Ripley.
Jan 26, 1971 - New York Times publishes Bill's obituary on page 1.
Jan 30, 1961 - Dr Carl Jung answers Bill's letter with "Spiritus
Contra Spiritum".
End of Jan 1939 - 400 copies of manuscript of Big Book circulated for
comment, evaluation and sale.

0 -1 0 0
4776 Glenn Chesnut
Annette Smith, Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous Annette Smith, Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous 1/2/2008 7:02:00 PM

New book just out:

Annette R. Smith, Ph.D., "The Social World
of Alcoholics Anonymous: How It Works,"
December 2007, ISBN 978-0-595-47692-3,
xx + 150 pp.

http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html

With an introduction by Linda Farris Kurtz,
DPA, Professor Emeritus, Eastern Michigan
University School of Social Work, author of
"Self-Help and Support Groups: A Handbook
for Practitioners."

http://hindsfoot.org/kas2.html

In the Preface to her book, Annette Smith
describes how she became involved in this
research:

Although I am not myself a member of A.A., I
have been intimately involved with the program
and its membership for many years. In 1969,
while I was working as a clinical social
worker on the alcoholism treatment unit at a
state mental hospital in California, the local
A.A. Hospital and Institutions Committee asked
to hold a meeting at the hospital. However,
the administration said there were no rooms
available. So, I arranged for the patients to
be bussed to my house every Thursday night,
where the meetings were held in my living room.
This went on for almost a year until the
hospital finally made a room available. During
this initial exposure to A.A., I developed
a close association with the fellowship, and
through the years I have continued to attend
open meetings and participate in many informal
A.A. social activities.

In 1982, I returned to graduate school at the
University of California, San Diego, to pursue
my Ph.D. in sociology. As I developed my socio-
logical interests, it seemed almost a natural
progression in my involvement with A.A. to be
able to look at it from the new perspective of
scholarly research. The primary content of
this book, including the data and references,
was originally part of the dissertation
submitted in 1991 in partial fulfillment of
my Ph.D. in Sociology.

The theoretical and methodological approaches
are those of symbolic interaction and quali-
tative field study. The focus is on interactive
processes, which are not captured by survey
research. Therefore, research efforts require
the kind of intimate familiarity that can only
be achieved through participant observation
and other qualitative methods. The supportive
data has been drawn primarily from participant
observation over a twenty-three-year period
in which I was associated with A.A. and from
in-depth interviews with fifty-one members
conducted in the course of the dissertation
and previous research (Smith, 1986). Examples
and citations presented included statements
heard during several hundred open A.A. meetings
in several geographic areas of the U.S. and
abroad, and both professional and personal
conversations with A.A. members. Additional
material and interpretive insights have been
drawn from the A.A. literature and referenced
secondary sources. Interview subjects were
initially recruited by placing notices on
bulletin boards at four local A.A. social clubs
and in chapter newsletters of the National
Council on Alcoholism and the Employee Assist-
ance Professionals Association. Interviews were
limited to those with at least two years of
continuous sobriety in an effort to provide
some protection against harmful emotional
effects to which those in early sobriety are
vulnerable. As patterns of experiences began
to emerge, additional subjects were sought
through snowball sampling that focused on the
need for stories reflecting these patterns.

The total interview sample consisted of
twenty-eight men and twenty-three women, with
ages ranging from nineteen to seventy. Length
of sobriety ranged from two to over twenty
years. All interviewees could be categorized
as low middle to middle class, with occupa-
tions ranging from skilled labor to technical
and professional. Three women and two men were
unemployed at the time of the interview. Only
one of the women categorized herself as a
homemaker, and none of the subjects were
retired. Ethnically, most were Caucasian,
although one black male, one Native American
male, and one Hispanic female were also in
the sample. These variations did not appear
to affect the general pattern of experiences
reflected for those constructs under study.

A topic guide was used for interviews that
established demographic information on age
and other categories, including date of A.A.
membership and date of current continuous
sobriety. Questions addressed included the
individual's perception of himself or herself
in terms of interpersonal relationships and
preferred ways of associating with others,
how he or she first came to A.A., what happened
there, feelings about what happened and ways
in which the person has participated in A.A.
since. The interviewees were also asked how
and when they accepted themselves as alcoholic,
and what they saw as most important in A.A.
recovery. As the various chapters of this book
were completed, they were read by selected A.A.
members for accuracy of organizational informa-
tion and validity of suggested patterns and
constructs. In the presentation of data, great
care has been taken to protect the anonymity
and confidentiality of all living A.A. members.

Subsequently, a new edition of the Big Book
of Alcoholics Anonymous was issued (AAWS, 2001),
and several noteworthy works have been added
to the qualitative research literature. A
paper on the social construction of group
dependency based on a chapter of the disserta-
tion was published (Smith, 1993). Makela,
Arminen, Bloomfield, et al. (1996) compared
the development of A.A. as a social movement
in eight societies; Wilcox (1998), Jensen
(1999) and Pollner and Stein (2001) provided
studies of aspects of A.A. culture; and
O'Halloran (2003) examined differences between
ethnographic and ethnomethodological (conversa-
tion analysis) methods in studying Alcoholics
Anonymous. Other relevant publications on
the subject include L. Kurtz's (1997) handbook
for practitioners on self-help and support
groups, which references some of the material
included in the dissertation, and Bishop and
Pittman's (1994) second volume of their A.A.
bibliography.

0 -1 0 0
4777 Mike Terhune
Bob P. (GSO Manager 1974-84) died Jan. 1st Bob P. (GSO Manager 1974-84) died Jan. 1st 1/1/2008 8:36:00 PM

Bob P. -- A Sober Life Well Lived

General Manager of the General Service Office
from 1974 to 1984

At 2:14 MST this morning, January 1, 2008,
Bob Pearson departed this life at the age of
90, sober for the final 46-1/2 years. Born
February 19, 1917, Bob leaves behind a loving
wife of 63 years and a family of children,
grandchildren and great-grandchildren, along
with a countless host of alcoholics ever
indebted to his life of love and service.

- - - -

At the suggestion of Carter E., I wanted to
share my tiny bit of AA history with this group.
The following is a tribute to a dear friend
that I posted to the NRV AA listserver:

For several hours yesterday afternoon, I once
again found myself blessed by sobriety and the
fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Along
with a dozen AA's and several other friends,
I was invited by the family of Robert G.
Pearson to attend the celebration of a life
well lived.

Crowded into a small bedroom at his home in
Bellevue, Idaho, we were given the opportunity
to sit with Bob and express our love, sadness
and gratitude in a way rarely seen outside of
our program and, certainly, in a manner never
before experienced by this servant.

I first met Bob P. in May 2004 at a meeting
in a room typical of many AA meetings, a tiny
confine in the basement of a church hall in
Hailey, Idaho. Outwardly, this man appeared
no different from any other drunk I've met in
many other meetings over the past quarter
century, though a bit older than most. He
began his share with "My name's Bob and I'm
a happy alcoholic," as he would each and
every time he spoke in AA. His precise words
of that day are lost with the passing of time
but I'm certain his theme was as it always
was: the joys of a sober life and the fact
that AA does not teach us how to stop drinking,
but how to live life without drinking.

At the end of the meeting, Bob asked if anyone
in the room would be attending the upcoming
Spring Assembly in Pocatello. As newly
appointed GSR for my group, I had been looking
for someone to share the three-hour ride.
I introduced myself to him and was immediately
invited to drive him and his wife, Betsy, to
the conference. Along the way, I learned
much about the amazing life of this wonderful
couple.

Previously of Greenwich, CT, Bob had worked
for the Grapevine, later becoming its editor.
It was during this time that he met Bill W.
Bob often related the tale of their first
meeting, Bob gushing all over Bill and Bill
replying with the simple phrase "Pass it on."
From 1974 to 1984, Bob served as General Manager
of the G.S.O. and was its Senior Adviser from
1985 until his retirement in 1987. As Bob
napped along the way, Betsy regaled me with
stories of the times they had shared with
Bill and Lois.

By the end of the trip we had become fast
friends. I've since often been invited to
house sit for the couple and entrusted with
the care of their pets during their frequent
travels about the country. I have shared many
a Tuesday afternoon lunch with them after
the noon meeting of the Wood River "To Handle
Sobriety Group," Bob's home group. Bob and
Bets, along with their sons (Brad and Ridley)
and daughter (Wendy) have become, in their
words, a surrogate family for me here in Idaho.

Though I never heard Bob tell his entire story
at an AA meeting, I was privileged to again
drive him to Pocatello where he was to be the
featured speaker for a group anniversary.
After his introduction, he asked those in
attendance if we would mind if he did not
share his E, S & H, rather telling us stories
of his time in New York, of (previously, to me)
nameless characters from the Big Book and a
bit of the history of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Of course, no one minded and Bob captured this
group of drunks for more than an hour with
a chronicle of AA brought to life.

Sadly, we have lost a connection to our legacy.
At 2:14 MST this morning, Bob Pearson departed
this life at the age of 90, sober for the
final 46-1/2 years. Born February 19, 1917,
Bob leaves behind a loving wife of 63 years,
a family of children, grandchildren and great-
grandchildren, along with a countless host
of alcoholics ever indebted to his life of
love and service.

Goodbye, Cap'n.. you will be missed

Mike Terhune

0 -1 0 0
4778 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Don Black: baseball players and anonymity issues Don Black: baseball players and anonymity issues 1/2/2008 3:02:00 PM

I have some information on Don Black and much
more on Hemsley. I have nothing to indicate
they knew each other. I have a pamphlet with
Black's picture and short story published by
the World League Against Alcoholism of
Westerville, Ohio reproduced by permission
from article by Kenneth F. Weaver in THE
ALLIED YOUTH and an oversized baseball card
by Capital Publishing Company with stats.

For information on his sudden collapse on
the field and later death see NOW PITCHING
Bob Feller with Bill Gilbert on pages 142,
155, 157, 161-162.

0 -1 0 0
4779 corafinch
Re: Amelia Reynolds, Oxford Group author Amelia Reynolds, Oxford Group author 12/30/2007 3:42:00 PM

"diazeztone" <eztone@...> wrote:
>
> Information wanted about Amelia S. Reynolds,
> an Oxford Group author. She wrote:
>
> Amelia S. Reynolds, "New Lives for Old" (New
> York: Fleming H. Revell, 1929). 96 pages
>

Could she be the same person as Mrs. Howard
Reynolds of Winnipeg, Manitoba? Mrs. Reynolds
was quoted in a 1936 Time article about the
Stockbridge Oxford Group event: "Our budget
is God-controlled. There is a real thrill
and purpose in teas and dinner parties."

Howard Reynolds later directed many of the
MRA dramatic productions, according to Garth
Lean's book about Buchman.

0 -1 0 0
4780 pmds@aol.com
Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? 12/28/2007 2:09:00 PM

I heard him tell that story many times ...
he described it as a piece of paper on which
was written something like "Considerations for
the man who is thinking about stopping drinking."

The person who gave it to him, whose name I've
forgotten, was a fraternity brother of Earle's
and lived in Marin County quite near where
Earle lived.

Earle wrote a book with the same title as his
story in the Big Book, and the information
may be in there.

- - - -

Original message 4774 from Terry W
<twalton@3gcinc.com> (twalton at 3gcinc.com)

What was the title of the AA pamphlet
mentioned in the Big Book story "Physician,
Heal Thyself" ???

In the personal story of Earle Marsh he
mentions a pamphlet given to him by a friend.
Does anyone know who the friend was, or the
title of the pamphlet described below? I am
assuming it was an AA pamphlet. Is it still
in circulation?

BB story page 346 3rd ed.

On the last day I was drinking I went up to
see a friend who had had a good deal of trouble
with alcohol, and whose wife had left him a
number of times. He had come back, however,
and he was on this program. In my stupid way
I went up to see him with the idea in the
back of my mind that I would investigate
Alcoholics Anonymous from a medical stand-
point. Deep in my heart was the feeling that
maybe I could get some help here.

This friend gave me a pamphlet, and I took
it home and had my wife read it to me. There
were two sentences in it that struck me.

One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr
because you stopped drinking," and this hit
me between the eyes.

The second one said, "Don't feel that you
stop drinking for anyone other than yourself,"
and this hit me between the eyes.

Thank you,
Terry W

0 -1 0 0
4781 Glenn Chesnut
Matt Talbot research Matt Talbot research 12/31/2007 3:46:00 PM

For those of you who are interested in the
figure of Matt Talbot, a good scholar in A.A.
history named John Blair has just started
a website which brings together a enormous
amount of material on him:
______________________________

Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center

http://venerablematttalbotresourcecenter.blogspot.com/

"The Venerable Matt Talbot Resource Center
blogspot exists to compile writings about the
life, times, and alcoholism recovery of Matt
Talbot (1856-1925) from Dublin, Ireland.
Disclaimer: The placing of information on
this blogspot from external linked sources
does not necessarily imply agreement with
that information. This center is independent
of any other group or organization."
______________________________

Among early AA authors, Father Ralph Pfau
(the Father John Doe of the Golden Books)
was a strong supporter of Matt Talbot as an
example of how a spiritual triumph over
alcoholism could be accomplished.

William D. Silkworth, M.D. (1873-1951) also
encouraged the formation of Matt Talbot
groups in Catholic parish churches in a
talk he gave which was published in the
National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism's
Blue Book: "The Prevention of Alcoholism:
A Challenge to the Catholic Clergy." This
article is available online at:

http://silkworth.net/silkworth/prevention.html



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4782 TBaerMojo@aol.com
Re: Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? Pamphlet in Physician Heal Thyself ??? 1/3/2008 9:09:00 AM

If you google for the words "15 points for an
alcoholic to consider" you will find a pdf of
a brochure by that name printed by Alcoholics
Anonymous - UK which has the text that you are
seeking.

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/newcomer/pack/15_Points.pdf

I have a photocopy of a very old version of
the same information printed by Street Printing
Company in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1940s.
It was locally produced but I have not yet
found a surviving original printed copy.

Tim B.

- - - -

Terry W. was looking for the source of
these two phrases:

One said, "Don't feel that you are a martyr
because you stopped drinking," and this hit
me between the eyes.

The second one said, "Don't feel that you
stop drinking for anyone other than your-
self," and this hit me between the eyes.

0 -1 0 0
4783 Glenn Chesnut
Little Red Book: first 7 editions Little Red Book: first 7 editions 1/4/2008 3:35:00 PM

A while back, Jack H. in Scottsdale, Arizona,
told me that there were two print runs of
The Little Red Book made in 1949. The only
difference between the two 1949 print runs
was that the first printing had a minor
typesetting error (a segment of text inserted
upside down) and was recalled as soon as this
was discovered, so that not many copies of
the first printing actually got out.

- - - -

Mark F. just sent me an email in which he said:

To Whom it May concern: I received a Little
Red Book from my sponsor after he passed away,
the cool thing is it is a 1949 First Printing.
To verify the two top sentences on pg 62 are
upside down. So I can see why they decided
to produce a second printing that year.
Thanks for the information.

- - - -

So based on what Mark has now verified about
the 1949 printing, together with the inform-
ation we already had posted from Jack H.
(Scottsdale, Arizona) and Tommy H. (Baton
Rouge, Louisiana), we can lay out a fully
verified time line and description for all of
the early printings of The Little Red Book.

1st edition August 1946

2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)

3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)

4th edition 1948

5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the
first print run, the two top sentences on
pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected
in the second print run.

6th edition 1950

7th edition 1951 (and so on)

- - - -

Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book
during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in
fact kept on making changes in the book all
the way to the end of his life in 1971.

We should remember that numerous changes were
also made in The Little Red Book after Ed
Webster's death on June 3, 1971, by editors
at the Hazelden Foundation who believed that
they "could write better" about alcoholism
than Ed Webster. But they did not make changes
that fundamentally changed any of the basic
material, so the version of The Little Red
Book currently available from Hazelden is
still usable for AA beginners classes.

Use of The Little Red Book was approved by
the New York AA office at a very early date,
and it is perfectly acceptable for reading
in AA meetings.

Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should
be taken as a kind of benchmark version for
many purposes, since this was the last edition
where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.
I can see a kind of sense in what he said.

- - - -

Message 4021 from Glenn Chesnut
glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4021
laid out most of this.

See also http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html

And thanks again to Mark F. for writing me
and telling me what he had found.

0 -1 0 0
4784 Mike
Bob P.''s obituary Bob P.''s obituary 1/4/2008 11:05:00 AM

From today's Idaho Mountain Express:

Robert Greenlees Pearson

With his wife, Betsy, children, Brad, Wendy
and Ridley, their spouses and his grandchil-
dren by his side, Bob Pearson died peacefully
of "old age" in his home in Bellevue, Idaho,
on Jan. 1, 2008.

Born the only child of somewhat nomadic parents,
Ridley Stilson and Agnes Greenlees Pearson,
on Feb. 19, 1917, Bob was not formally edu-
cated until the third grade. He took to
academics easily, skipping grades and gradu-
ating from Kansas University at 18, where he
served as editor of both the university's
humor magazine and yearbook. A skilled writer,
Bob was the focus of a national scandal when
a Scribner's Magazine article, "Ghost Behind
the Grade," published in 1938, revealed that
e had paid his way through college by ghost-
writing hundreds of grade-specific papers for
fellow students in dozens of classes and
seven universities. His writing led him to
New York City where he went to work for the
Shell Oil Co. in public relations, and later
met his wife of 63 years, Betsy Dodge.

With the advent of World War II, Bob enlisted
as an officer in the U.S. Navy, and was
assigned aboard a destroyer escort as the
ship's gunnery officer. He participated in
numerous missions in convoys across the
Atlantic. Bob wrote speeches for the admiral
of the Navy, as well as for two presidents,
Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman. His
destroyer escort was part of the historic
capture of a German U-boat, north of the
Azores. It was the first submarine ever
boarded and taken prior to the destruction
of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio
codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later
immortalized in the motion picture "U-571."
In 1945, he was honorably discharged,
holding the rank of lieutenant commander.

Following the war, Bob and Betsy eventually
settled in Riverside, Connecticut, where Bob
was an avid runner and skier and served as
senior deacon in the First Congregational
Church of Greenwich. In his 38 years with
Shell Oil, Bob's most notable accomplishments
involved that company's sponsoring of major
sports. Working with the NBC television
network, Bob was instrumental in popularizing
golf by bringing the sport to live television
for the first time in "Shell's Wonderful World
of Golf." He also participated in Shell's
sponsorship of Craig Breedlove's pursuit of
the world land speed record in a jet-propelled
car, on the Bonneville Salt Flats in the
mid-1960s.

But it was Bob's personal crisis that would
prove to define his life. Beginning with his
service in the Navy, Bob had grown addicted
to alcohol and, some 20 years later, nearly
died of alcoholism. He was encouraged by
physicians to join a fledgling group called
Alcoholics Anonymous, in Greenwich, Connect-
icut, in 1961. Bob P., as he was known in
that organization, found sobriety and dedi-
cated himself to AA service, even working on
occasion with its co-founder, Bill W. He
served on local and national boards of AA, and
eventually was appointed general manager of
AA's World Service Organization, where, for
10 years, 1974-1984, he oversaw the enormous
international growth and spread of AA worldwide.
The organization played an influential role in
the establishment of over a hundred unrelated,
so-called 12-step programs, which have resulted
in millions' conquering various addictions.
Through his service to AA, Bob P., with wife
Betsy (a longtime member of Al-Anon), traveled
the world, speaking to both small AA groups as
well as at its international conventions of
50,000 or more attendees. His "AA story" was
published as the closing story in "Alcoholics
Anonymous," AA's "Big Book," which remains one
of the most widely published and perennially
best-selling books in the world.

Bob and Betsy moved part-time to Bellevue,
Idaho, in 1980, soon making it their permanent
home. Here, Bob P. continued to serve AA, both
as a speaker and contributor to its national
archives. Bob's life was defined by his
dedicated service to Alcoholics Anonymous, an
organization whose members depend on one
another for their survival. His family wishes
to extend their thanks to the hundreds of local
AA members, and thousands of national members,
who supported Bob's sobriety, gave him a
charmed life, and who continue the great
traditions of this wonderful and necessary
organization.

A memorial celebrating Bob P.'s service in
Alcoholics Anonymous will be held Friday,
Jan. 11, (check local flyers) in Sun Valley,
Idaho; a public memorial for friends and
family will take place at the Church of the
Big Wood, Ketchum, Idaho, at 4 p.m., Saturday,
Jan. 12. Donations in Bob's name will be
gratefully accepted by the Sun Club, Ketchum,
Idaho.

(The entire Pearson family wishes to extend
their gratitude to Drs. Hall and Fairman,
Hospice and Palliative Care of the Wood River
Valley, and especially Johnna Pletcher and
Gloria Clark for their loving in-home care
and assistance.)

0 -1 0 0
4785 Tom Hickcox
Re: Little Red Book: first 7 editions Little Red Book: first 7 editions 1/4/2008 5:04:00 PM

At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
>1st edition August 1946
>
>2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)
>
>3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)
>
>4th edition 1948
>
>5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the
>first print run, the two top sentences on
>pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected
>in the second print run.
>
>6th edition 1950
>
>7th edition 1951 (and so on)

A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note
that these early Little Red Books are usually
referred to by printing number, not edition.
That said, these numbers were not assigned
until the 11th printing in 1954.

I believe the more proper descriptive word
would be edition as you use it as changes were
made for the different printings. Use of the
word printing implies that the content is the
same, but we know that to be different in this
case.

For those interested, the copyrights are as
follows:

Printings 1-5 1946
6 1946-1950
7 1950
8-9 1951
11-14 1951
15-25 1957

There are no copies of the 10th printing that
I am aware of and I don't know the story.
Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.

I would also like to point out that this
information is for the Coll-Webb editions of
the Little Red Book and they are in a larger
format book than the Hazelden printings which
started some time in the 1960s. There are at
my count seven different types published by
Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957
Coll-Webb copyright.

Glenn C. went on to say:

>Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book
>during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in
>fact kept on making changes in the book all
>the way to the end of his life in 1971.
>
>Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should
>be taken as a kind of benchmark version for
>many purposes, since this was the last edition
>where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.
>I can see a kind of sense in what he said.
>

I think Jack is correct. It would be inter-
esting to tabulate the changes from the first
printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4786 Glenn Chesnut
AA Recovery Outcome Rates AA Recovery Outcome Rates 1/6/2008 8:03:00 PM

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome
Rates: Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation

January 1, 2008

By Arthur S. (Arlington, Texas),
Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York),
and Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

See http://hindsfoot.org/archive3.html

This article cannot be sent out in email
format, because of all its charts, graphs,
notes and so on.

It can be read as an Adobe PDF file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

Or as an MS Word DOC file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for
1977 through 1989 show that, of those people
who are in their first month of attending A.A.
meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A.
meetings at the end of that year.

Of those who are in their fourth month of
attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who
have completed their initial ninety days,
and have thereby demonstrated a certain
willingness to really try the program),
56% will still be attending A.A. meetings
at the end of that year.

0 -1 0 0
4787 Jim S.
Bill W. and drugs Bill W. and drugs 1/7/2008 1:03:00 PM

Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took
"a laundry list" of drugs during his sober
years, yet I can't seem to get any details,
except for the false statement that he
"dropped acid for five years." Can anyone
point me to this "laundry list" he used?

Jim S.

- - - -

Jim,

SEDATIVES:

There are numerous references to Bill W. (and
many other early AA people, like Father John
Doe) taking "sedatives," which seems to have
meant mostly barbiturates and powerful bromide
compounds. These compounds were what drug
addicts call "downers," but barbiturates were
not designated as controlled substances in the
United States until 1970. Bromides just about
totally disappeared from the market when
better sedatives were developed.

LSD:

On LSD, go to our message board at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages
and do a search for "LSD." You will find over
40 past messages on this topic. The basic
account of how Bill W. experimented with LSD
is found in Ernie Kurtz, "Drugs and the
Spiritual: Bill W. Takes LSD" in Ernie's book,
"The Collected Ernie Kurtz," p. 39.

At the time Bill W. was experimenting with
it, it had only recently been developed.
It was not yet illegal, nor had its
potential for misuse and harm been dis-
covered yet.

MARIJUANA:

In the 1920s and 30s, musicians like Louis
Armstrong and Bing Crosby were using marijuana
(just as later on, Bob Dylan, John Lennon,
Paul McCartney, and John Denver used it).

In 1936, the movie "Reefer Madness" (originally
financed by a church group) portrayed high
school students being lured into marijuana
usage leading to a hit and run accident,
manslaughter, suicide, rape, and the descent
into madness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness

Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration
criminalized marijuana in the United
States in 1937.

I have never found any reference however
to early AA members being involved
specifically with marijuana, or making
any specific mention of it, so I do not
know whether it was an issue to them or
not.

OTHER DRUGS:

As far as I can tell, when early AA people
referred to "drug addicts," they seem to
have been referring mostly to opium smokers
and people who injected heroin or snorted
cocaine. As the old jazz lyrics went,
"Honey, take a whiff on me":

http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWHIFFME.html
http://www.cocaine.org/cocaine-habit.html
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-songs-with-chords/Take%20A%20Whiff%20On%2\
0Me.htm


Early AA people were a different social
class (doctors, lawyers, stock brokers,
business people, newspaper people, and
so on) from the jazz musicians and people
from the urban slums who were involved
in drugs of that sort back in the 1930s
and 40s.

Most Americans were not exposed to these
drugs in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. In fact,
it was not until the latter 1960s and early
70s that the average American came into any
contact with drugs of this sort.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
4788 handlebarick
Re: Little Red Book: first 7 editions Little Red Book: first 7 editions 1/5/2008 6:06:00 PM

Greetings all; I have:
1. A Large Second Printing January 1947 Copyright 1946 By Coll-Webb
Company International Copyright 1946. Has no outside writing on
cover. This one on inside page one (counting back from first page
with a number being # NINE)is printed only the words The Twelve
Steps. On page three printed is: An Interpretation of The Twelve
Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program, Coll-Webb Co., Publishers
P.O. Box 564 Minneapolis, Minnesota MCMXLVII
Copyright info is on page four.

2.A Large Eighteenth Printing 1964 and on (unnumbered)page one only
states: The Little Red Book On page (unnumbered)three printing is:
The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps
of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program 1964 The Little Red Book Box
564, Main P.O. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55440 United States of America.
Page four has Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-
Webb Company. Also on this page is a lists of printings that reads:
1st printing 1946
2nd printing 1947
3rd printing 1947
4th printing 1948
5th printing 1949
6th printing 1950
7th printing 1951
8th printing 1952
9th printing 1953
10TH PRINTING 1954*
11th printing 1955
12th printing 1957
13th printing 1959
14th printing 1960
15th printing 1961
16th printing 1962
17th printing 1963
18th printing 1964
* states 10th printing
Also printed on this page is: $2.50 U.S.A. $2.75 Outside Territorial
U.S.A. Printed and Manufactured in the United States of America.

3. A (Still) LARGE Twenty-fourth printing 1970. Page one (unnumbered)
prints: The Little Red Book. Page three states The Little Red Book An
Orthodox Interpretation of The Twelve Steps Of The Alcoholics
Anonymous Program 1970 Hazelden Center City, Minnesota 55012. Page
four states: Copyright 1957 International Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb
Company. Also on this page:
Twenty Printings from 1946-1966
21st printing 1967
22nd printing 1968
23rd printing 1969
24th printing 1970

4. A Large 1996 50th Anniversary by Hazelton/Pittman

5. A Small edition. Page one (unnumbered) reads: THe Little Red Book.
Page three states: The Little Red Book An Orthodox Interpretation of
The Twelve Steps of The Alcoholics Anonymous Program Hazelden Center
City, MN, 55012 Page four is limited to Copyright 1957 International
Copyright 1957 By Coll-Webb Company. (No printing Date or number)
Also page four has ISBN 0-89486-004-6 Printed and Manufactured in the
United States of America.

6. A Small Revised Edition Inside unnumbered page three reads: The
Little Red Book. Inside unnumbered page five states: The Little Red
Book Hazelden (only) Inside unnumbered page six: First published
1957 Revised Edition, Copyright 1986 Hazelden Foundation. Printed in
the United States of America. Also has Editor's note: proclaiming
it's disclaimer. Author's Note is numbered 1.

All these books have statements of Rights Reserved on page four.

Rick S. Wapakoneta, OH


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@...>
wrote:
>
> At 14:35 1/4/2008 , Glenn Chesnut wrote:
> >
> >1st edition August 1946
> >
> >2nd edition January 1947 (distinctively red cover)
> >
> >3rd edition later in 1947 (dull maroon cover)
> >
> >4th edition 1948
> >
> >5th edition 1949 had two print runs. In the
> >first print run, the two top sentences on
> >pg 62 were upside down. This was corrected
> >in the second print run.
> >
> >6th edition 1950
> >
> >7th edition 1951 (and so on)
>
> A nice summary, Glenn. However, I would note
> that these early Little Red Books are usually
> referred to by printing number, not edition.
> That said, these numbers were not assigned
> until the 11th printing in 1954.
>
> I believe the more proper descriptive word
> would be edition as you use it as changes were
> made for the different printings. Use of the
> word printing implies that the content is the
> same, but we know that to be different in this
> case.
>
> For those interested, the copyrights are as
> follows:
>
> Printings 1-5 1946
> 6 1946-1950
> 7 1950
> 8-9 1951
> 11-14 1951
> 15-25 1957
>
> There are no copies of the 10th printing that
> I am aware of and I don't know the story.
> Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I would also like to point out that this
> information is for the Coll-Webb editions of
> the Little Red Book and they are in a larger
> format book than the Hazelden printings which
> started some time in the 1960s. There are at
> my count seven different types published by
> Hazelden in the smaller format with the 1957
> Coll-Webb copyright.
>
> Glenn C. went on to say:
>
> >Ed Webster kept on making changes in the book
> >during that period from 1946 to 1949, and in
> >fact kept on making changes in the book all
> >the way to the end of his life in 1971.
> >
> >Jack H. argued that the 1949 edition should
> >be taken as a kind of benchmark version for
> >many purposes, since this was the last edition
> >where Dr. Bob had had any input into the book.
> >I can see a kind of sense in what he said.
> >
>
> I think Jack is correct. It would be inter-
> esting to tabulate the changes from the first
> printing in 1946 thru the fifth in 1949.
>
> Tommy H in Baton Rouge
>

0 -1 0 0
4789 Tom Hickcox
Re: Bob P.''s obituary Bob P.''s obituary 1/5/2008 4:13:00 PM

At 10:05 1/4/2008 , Mike wrote:

>His
>destroyer escort was part of the historic
>capture of a German U-boat, north of the
>Azores. It was the first submarine ever
>boarded and taken prior to the destruction
>of any of its hardware or its Enigma radio
>codes -— only days prior to D-Day, later
>immortalized in the motion picture "U-571."

I mean no disrespect to the memory of Bob P
but this statement is incorrect.

Since it has nothing to do with A.A. history,
those interested may contact me off-list for
the details.

Tommy H

0 -1 0 0
4790 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Bill W. and drugs Bill W. and drugs 1/7/2008 2:28:00 PM

A doctor came with a heavy sedative. Next day
found me drinking both gin and sedative without
the usual penalty.

http://www.aabibliography.com/aapioneers/bills_story.htm

0 -1 0 0
4791 Corky
Re: Bill W. and drugs Bill W. and drugs 1/7/2008 10:04:00 PM

Jim S.

Chapter 23 in "Pass It On" (pp. 368-377) refers
to Bill's experiment with LSD.

Corky F.

- - - -

This reference also sent in by Jim L.
Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

- - - -

Original Message from: Jim S.
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:03 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Bill W. and drugs

Occasionally I hear or read that Bill W. took
"a laundry list" of drugs during his sober
years, yet I can't seem to get any details,
except for the false statement that he
"dropped acid for five years." Can anyone
point me to this "laundry list" he used?

Jim S.

0 -1 0 0
4792 schaberg43
Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark 1/12/2008 11:46:00 AM

Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at
182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and
that, during that year, he dictated chapters
of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark,
New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at
17 Williams Street.

Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge,
did he have a friend with a car), so how did
he get from the borough east of Manhattan to
Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity?

I have asked older New York friends and they
have not been able to recall what forms of
public transportation might have been in
place at that time for such an extensive
trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles
-- 10 of those in New Jersey).

AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill
might have accomplished this, can you estimate
the time it might have taken and how much it
might have cost?

Best,

Old Bill

0 -1 0 0
4793 chief_roger
History of the term Conference Approved History of the term Conference Approved 1/12/2008 10:22:00 AM

In diner discussion recently following a
meeting the question was raised, when did we
begin to use the term conference approved AA
literature to separate it as different from
central office publications and other material
related to alcoholism or recovery?

I searched the many postings on conference
approved, have the Box 459 article explaining
what is meant and not meant and discovered
that the very first GSC Literature Committee
Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years,
A.A. textbook literature should have Conference
approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
the adoption of the suggestion should not
preclude the continued issuance of various
printed documents by non-Foundation sources.
No desire to review, edit or censor non-
Foundation material is implied. The objective
is to provide, in the future, a means of
distinguishing Foundation literature from
that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests."

This seems the beginning of AA practice in
separating literature.

Anyone know how the term "conference approved"
evolved into the AA lexicon?

Roger W.

0 -1 0 0
4794 Glenn Chesnut
AA success rate: revised/updated report AA success rate: revised/updated report 1/14/2008 9:07:00 PM

During the past week, members of the group
have written in about the article "Alcoholics
Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates:
Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation,"
with some corrections and also some sugges-
tions for a slight revision here and there.

The original version (see Message 4786) was
put on line on January 6, 2008.

The revised/updated report has now been placed
on line as of this evening (January 14, 2008).

It can be read as an Adobe PDF file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

Or as an MS Word DOC file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

Among other observations, this article notes
how the A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys
show that, of those people who are in their
first month of attending A.A. meetings,
26% will still be attending A.A. meetings
at the end of that year.

And of those who are in their fourth month
of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who
have completed their initial ninety days,
and have thereby demonstrated a certain
willingness to really try the program),
56% will still be attending A.A. meetings
at the end of that year.

0 -1 0 0
4795 Tom White
Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark 1/12/2008 6:53:00 PM

Dear Old Bill:

I really should not be writing this "answer,"
but I can't resist a little nostalgic ponti-
ficating. Remember, this was in the LATE
THIRTIES, a period before every man Jack and
his son Joe had a car, maybe two or three,
and the streets were manageable in a way
people can hardly imagine today. But that
is not really important in this connection.

What is important is that the city of New
York, all five boroughs, had a smashingly
great, world-class, transport system and,
as a late as my time (1950s), the unit cost
for some incredibly long rides was a nickel,
five cents, really. It may have been that
Bill would have had to add a few cents for
the jog into New Jersey, but I don't know.
Never went there much myself except by ferry
to Hoboken (5 cents) to have some early a.m.
beers, because they opened early or never
shut, I forget which.

Mind you the whole thing from Brooklyn to
Jersey would have taken but minutes. Some
old-timer may know just how many. 13 miles
is a hop skip and a jump. It was then, and
should be now, but we have forgotten how it
to do it. Get your car out and expect it take
two hours, maybe more. Progress: the deepest
illusion of Americans.

Tom W. Odessa, TX

- - - -

From: "tommy" <fulmertr@etown.edu>
(fulmertr at etown.edu)

The DeCamp bus line started in 1870 and is
still running today from New York to New Jersey.

web site <http://www.decamp.com/about.htm>

Hope this helps, Tommy

- - - -

From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net>
(snowlily at megalink.net)

Bus: Brooklyn Bridge to Canal St., thru
Holland Tunnel to Jersey City, north two miles
or so to Newark. Probably 10 cents each way.

- - -

From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

I've asked myself the same question, having
crossed from Manhattan to New Jersey hundreds
of times, both drunk and sober. My speculation
is that Hank Parkhurst drove Bill to New
Jersey regularly, but not daily.

Bill took the subway from Brooklyn Heights
to Lower Manhattan. Hank lived in Montclair,
a nice suburb of Newark. Hank would have
likely driven to Lower Manhattan, picked up
Bill, and gone either to Newark or Towns
Hospital on Central Park West. The two of
them were visiting Towns weekly, trying to
save drunks.

There were no PATH trains from New Jersey
to the World Trade Center at that time. Bill
could have taken a bus from Lower Manhattan
through the Holland Tunnel to Newark, but
the trip from Brooklyn to Newark would have
taken a half day.

There's always been the Main Line of the
Pennsylvania Railroad from Pennsylvania
Station to downtown Newark, but that would
have involved numerous subway transfers.

I suspect that Bill only went to the Newark
office once or twice a week, and tried to
dovetail those visits with 12th Step work
with Hank.

Bill was undoubtedly eager to move the
office to Lower Manhattan, the location of
his past glories.

*****************************

Original message 4792 from
<schaberg@aol.com> (schaberg at aol.com)

> Research tells me that Bill Wilson lived at
> 182 Clinton Street in Brooklyn NY in 1938 and
> that, during that year, he dictated chapters
> of the Big Book to Ruth Hock in the Newark,
> New Jersey, offices of Honor Dealers at
> 17 Williams Street.
>
> Bill did not have a car, (nor, to my knowledge,
> did he have a friend with a car), so how did
> he get from the borough east of Manhattan to
> Newark, New Jersey, with some regularity?
>
> I have asked older New York friends and they
> have not been able to recall what forms of
> public transportation might have been in
> place at that time for such an extensive
> trip (according to Google Maps over 13 miles
> -- 10 of those in New Jersey).
>
> AND, if anyone does have an idea of how Bill
> might have accomplished this, can you estimate
> the time it might have taken and how much it
> might have cost?
>
> Best,
>
> Old Bill

0 -1 0 0
4796 Wesley Brauer
AA success rate: 92% and 85% in Tennessee AA success rate: 92% and 85% in Tennessee 1/15/2008 1:40:00 PM

My name is Wes, I reside in New York.

But while living in Tennessee, a friend of
mine conducted a survey of sober members in
Area 64. His name is Scott L.

He found that members that do service work
have a recovery rate of 92% if you commit to
2 hours per month of a service commitment in
the area, district or intergroup level.

He also found that if you did a minimal 4 hrs
per month at the home group level there was
an 85% recovery rate!

Wes Brauer

0 -1 0 0
4797 DudleyDobinson@aol.com
Re: Little Red Book: the earliest printings Little Red Book: the earliest printings 1/13/2008 1:26:00 PM

Thanks Rick,

I can complete a couple of gaps in your list.

The 19th & 20th printings were made in 1965
& 1966.

Also there were two printings in 1970:
the 24th & 25th.

Worth noting that the text in the 50th
anniversary edition in 1996 is actually from
the 1949 5th printing.

[ photo at http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html ]

I have all these books with the exception
of the 10th, which I have been looking for
for some seven years. Also I do not have
the copy of the fifth printing run with an
error on page 62, which I was only recently
made aware of through being a member of
this group.

In fellowship - Dudley

0 -1 0 0
4798 Arthur S
RE: History of the term Conference Approved History of the term Conference Approved 1/14/2008 5:39:00 PM

Hi Roger

I love getting into these kind of AA history
fragments.

There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1
Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the
first General Service Conference in 1951, but
they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)
all of which were passed unanimously.

Among them was one that read "This Conference
feels that in future years AA textbook
literature should have Conference approval."

There was also a notation that "Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
adoption of the suggestion would not preclude
the continued issuance of various printed
documents by non-Foundation sources. No desire
to review, edit or censor non-Foundation
material is, implied. The objective is to
provide, in the future, a means of distin-
guishing Foundation literature from that
issued locally or by non-AA interests."

The 1951 Conference did not have a Conference
Committee on Literature. The four 1951
Conference Committees were: a "Committee
on New Trustees," an "Advisory Committee on
the Budget," a "Committee on Agenda," and a
"Committee on the Conference Report." The
Committee on Agenda presented the recommend-
ation on Conference-approved literature
(this is parenthetically noted in publication
M-39 which records all the advisory actions
that were passed by the Conferences).

Based on the 1951 Conference recommendation,
a Trustee's (or Foundation's) Committee on
Literature was formed to make a report to
the 1952 Conference recommending literature
that should be retained and future literature
items that would be needed. Bill W also
reported on the literature projects he was
engaged in.

In 1952, Panel 2 (consisting of 38 additional
delegates) joined with Panel 1 for the first
Conference of all Delegates attending. Seven
Conference Committees were formed (or renamed)
as "Nominating," "Finance," "Literature,"
"Policy," "Agenda," "Trustees," and "Conference
Report."

Among the 1952 Conference Literature
Committee's approved recommendations were:

1. That the report of the Foundation's
Committee on Literature, together with Bill's
report of his proposed program of activity
be approved.

2. That the following be incorporated on
all literature published by the Works
Publishing, Inc: "Issued by Works Publishing,
Inc., sole publishing agency of the Society
of Alcoholics Anonymous. Approved by the
General Service Conference of AA."

3. That this conference reaffirm the stand
taken by the 1951 Conference as follows:
"This conference has no desire to review,
edit, or censor non-Foundation material.
Our object is to provide, in the future,
a means of distinguishing Foundation
literature from that issued locally or
by non-AA interests."

By approving the Trustee's (or Foundation's)
Committee recommendations for literature
to be retained, the 1952 Conference retro-
actively approved the Big Book and several
existing pamphlets which included the long
form of the Traditions. Bill's approved
"program of activity" resulted in later
publication of six Conference-approved books:

**The 12&12 published in 1953

**The 3rd Legacy Manual published in 1955 -
renamed "The AA Service Manual" in 1969

**The 2nd edition Big Book published in 1955

**AA Comes of Age published in 1957

**The 12 Concepts for World Service published
in 1962

**The AA way of Life published in 1966 -
renamed As Bill Sees It in 1975

From perusing the final reports, it seems that
the terms "Conference-approved" or "Conference
approval" were well seeded (not necessarily
frequently stated) in the Conference vocabulary
in 1951 and 1952. While neither term appeared
in the 1953 Conference report, the 1954 report
was quite another matter and included the
term "Conference-approved" numerous times
throughout the report.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Message 4793 from <chief_roger@yahoo.com>
(chief_roger at yahoo.com)

History of the term Conference Approved

In diner discussion recently following a
meeting the question was raised, when did we
begin to use the term conference approved AA
literature to separate it as different from
central office publications and other material
related to alcoholism or recovery?

I searched the many postings on conference
approved, have the Box 459 article explaining
what is meant and not meant and discovered
that the very first GSC Literature Committee
Advisory Action in 1951 was "In future years,
A.A. textbook literature should have Conference
approval (Agenda Committee). Prior to the
vote on this subject, it was pointed out that
the adoption of the suggestion should not
preclude the continued issuance of various
printed documents by non-Foundation sources.
No desire to review, edit or censor non-
Foundation material is implied. The objective
is to provide, in the future, a means of
distinguishing Foundation literature from
that issued locally or by non-A.A. interests."

This seems the beginning of AA practice in
separating literature.

Anyone know how the term "conference approved"
evolved into the AA lexicon?

Roger W.






Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
4799 Mike Custer
Father Martin: heart attack Father Martin: heart attack 1/16/2008 4:44:00 AM

Last Thursday, Father Martin was hospitalized
after experiencing a heart attack. To date,
he is still hospitalized, however stable.

In keeping with our belief that prayer works,
join us in praying for his continued recovery.

Email us at fathermartin@fathermartin.com
your words of encouragement and well wishes.
Although Father Martin is unable to read
your message himself, Mae, Micki or another
family member will read your message to him.

Cards can be mailed to:

218 Fulford Ave
Bel Air, Maryland 21014

0 -1 0 0
4800 Tom Hickcox
Extremely long early Big Book draft? Extremely long early Big Book draft? 1/15/2008 11:40:00 PM

I have seen references in accounts of the
writing of the Big Book to an early draft that
yielded a book three to four times the length
of the one that was printed. The story goes
that the draft was put out for comment and a
number of persons said it was entirely too
long so it was cut back to its present form,
or close to it.

Manuscripts that are close to what was printed
survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay
for modest sums, usually.

My question to the group is how much of this
story about an extremely long early draft is
based on fact? If the story is generally
accepted as true, why did none of the original
much longer manuscripts survive? It seems
to me if enough copies were put out for
comment, some of them should have survived.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4801 Tom Hickcox
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/15/2008 6:12:00 PM

Message 4798 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
on "History of the term Conference Approved"

>I love getting into these kind of AA history
>fragments.
>
>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1
>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the
>first General Service Conference in 1951, but
>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)
>all of which were passed unanimously.
>
>Among them was one that read "This Conference
>feels that in future years AA textbook
>literature should have Conference approval."

- - - -

I love reading your contributions to this
forum, Arthur!

Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"?

I look in the two books that I consider to
be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12,
and the term textbook is used exactly once,
in the 12x12, and refers to school and
medical textbooks.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4802 Arthur S
RE: Extremely long early Big Book draft? Extremely long early Big Book draft? 1/16/2008 1:49:00 PM

Hi Tom

I've found only two references to the reputed
drastic editing and paring of the original
Big Book manuscript. One is in "Bill W" by
Francis Hartigan (pg 126) the other in "Pass
It On" (pg 204). Both references are sustained
solely by anecdote and quite frankly I
question their accuracy (although, among a
number of fables in AA, it makes for enter-
taining legend).

"AA Comes of Age" is silent on the matter. If
such a severe paring did occur I find it hard
to believe that Bill W would have forgotten
to mention it (he colorfully discusses the
editing done to the personal stories and
member reaction to it).

The editing and paring was done by Tom Uzzell
in February/March 1939. 400 copies of the
manuscript had been distributed the prior
January (1939) for review and comment. The
version of the manuscript distributed, as you
note, clearly did not have a page count that
some attribute to it (i.e. 600 to 1200 pages).
Uzzell did his editing after those review
copies were returned.

The mark-up master manuscript, delivered to
Cornwall Press for creation of galley proofs,
was a copy of the manuscript distributed in
January 1939.

Check the links below for some fascinating
info and pictures:

http://aaholygrail.com/3.html
(very nice capsule history)

http://aaholygrail.com/1.html
(magnificent photos)

My guess is that claims of a 600-1200 page
manuscript serve to provide color but do not
accurately tell the Big Book story.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

The stories were edited severely, not the
first eleven chapters. The surplusage was
cut from the stories, not from the first
eleven chapters of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Very little was cut from the multilith
version, which didn't include the stories
[other than Bill's Story]. There were lots
of phraseology changes from the multilith
version, but very few deletions. The surgery
was performed by professional writer "friends"
of the First Hundred.

- - - -

Message 4800 from Tom Hickcox
<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
asked the question:

I have seen references in accounts of the
writing of the Big Book to an early draft that
yielded a book three to four times the length
of the one that was printed. The story goes
that the draft was put out for comment and a
number of persons said it was entirely too
long so it was cut back to its present form,
or close to it.

Manuscripts that are close to what was printed
survive. Indeed, they are available on eBay
for modest sums, usually.

My question to the group is how much of this
story about an extremely long early draft is
based on fact? If the story is generally
accepted as true, why did none of the original
much longer manuscripts survive? It seems
to me if enough copies were put out for
comment, some of them should have survived.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4803 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark Bill W''s travels from Brooklyn to Newark 1/17/2008 3:52:00 PM

From: Jared Lobdell <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
about Bill W's travels from Brooklyn to Newark,

A response to: "johnlawlee"
<johnlawlee@yahoo.com> (johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

- - - -

JOHN:

There were no PATH trains from New Jersey
to the World Trade Center at that time.

- - - -

JARED:

It's true the lines were not called PATH and
the WTC didn't exist in the 1930s, but the
H&M (now PATH) lines between Hudson Terminal
(the WTC location) and Newark were in fact
opened in 1911 and were certainly in operation
in the 1930s.

- - - -

JOHN:

While it is physically possible to travel by
subways from Brooklyn to Newark, I can't see
Bill Wilson making that daily commute. Bill
was enthralled with Manhattan, and his
enthusiasm for Honor Dealers car wax was
tepid at best. Hank, Bill and Ruth were
crowded into a hole-in-the-wall office on
William Street, Newark after being evicted
from a larger suite in the same building.

The better view is that Bill bounced into
the Newark office once or twice a week to
give dictation to Ruth on Honor Dealers or
AA issues. Mitchell K's book, How It
Worked, indicates that "Bill was met at the
train station in New York by Hank P...."
upon returning from Akron with approval for
the book project and chain of hospitals
[p.90]. That would have been Penn Station in
Manhattan.

Susan Cheever thinks it's possible to take
a train from Grand Central to Akron, but
everyone else would have departed from Penn
Station, the magnificent work of McKim Mead
[see Cheever at p.131].

- - - -

JARED:

Not only physically possible (if we count
the H&M "tubes" as a "subway" -- though in
fact to Newark they used the Pennsy track past
Manhattan Transfer), but in fact the most
convenient way from BH to Newark by public
transportation, tho' I agree Bill would have
preferred to be driven, and that -- tho'
a "commute" -- it certainly wasn't something
Bill did every day.

I still can't agree with the implication of
your original statement that "there were no
PATH trains from New Jersey to the World Trade
Center at that time" -- tho' as I noted it's
technically true since it wasn't called PATH
and there was no WTC complex.

On your other point, evidence suggests to me
that the principal NY-Akron service was indeed
to and from Grand Central on the NYCentral,
not Penn Station on the Pennsy.

The Broadway Ltd (the chief Pennsy NY-Chicago
train) had as its stops (in the 1930s)
New York Penn Station, Newark Penn Station,
North Philadelphia, Paoli, Harrisburg,
Baker Street Station (Fort Wayne), Englewood
Union Station, Chicago Union Station (it hit
Cleveland in the very early hours of the
morning).

There were Cleveland (and Pittsburgh) stops
on trains running eastward to NY (Penn Station),
on the old Cleveland & Pittsburgh line, but
the Akron Pennsy station was part of the
Cleveland, Akron & Columbus (N/S) route and
not on the main C&P, so far as I know.

It's true that from 1923 to 1926 the B&O
operated the Capitol Limited (through Akron)
into Penn Station, but after 1926 into the
Jersey Central terminal at Jersey City.

So I can't say I agree that "everyone else"
would have gone from NY Penn Station to Akron
(unless I've overlooked a RR that served
Akron and came into Penn Station, which
is possible).

Do we know that Hank in fact usually drove
into NYC? -- he could easily have taken
the DL&W into Hoboken and the "tubes" over.

-- Jared

0 -1 0 0
4804 Patricia
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/16/2008 10:15:00 AM

Comments from Patricia, Jenny A., and Arthur S.

What did they mean by the phrase "AA textbook
literature" in the conference advisory action
passed in 1951?

- - - -

Responding to message 4798 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

... the first General Service Conference in
1951 ... passed quite a few advisory actions
(16) all of which were passed unanimously.
Among them was one that read "This Confer-
ence feels that in future years AA textbook
literature should have Conference approval."

- - - -

From: Patricia <pdixonrae@yahoo.com>
(pdixonrae at yahoo.com)

On the dust cover of my second, third and
fourth edition it says this book is the
basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous.

Patricia

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Bill W describes 12 Steps and 12 Traditions
as "our textbook". (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes
of Age, Appendix B: Why Alcoholics Anonymous
is Anonymous).

The dust cover of the fourth edition of the
Big Book says it is "the basic text for
Alcoholics Anonymous."

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines
a text as, first, "the original written or
printed words and form of a literary work."
For textbook it says "a book containing a
presentation of the principles of a subject."

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

Hey Tom

"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are
terms that seemed to be well-seeded. My sense
is that the terms were initially used
generically early in AA history and over time
came to signify the Big Book pages numbered
1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the
1st edition).

In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes
the 12&12: "One more noteworthy event marked
this period of quiet: the publication of
A.A.'s Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in
1953. This small volume is strictly a textbook
which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic
principles and their application, in detail
and with great care."

On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book:
"Suppose our embryo book were someday to
become the chief text for our fellowship."

Further Big Book references:

On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S.
liked the new steps very much. As the remainder
of the book text developed, based on the
Twelve Steps, they continued to report their
approval.

On page 164: "We had not gone much farther
with the text of the book when it was evident
that something more was needed. There would
have to be a story or case history section."

[... also ...]

"It was felt also that the story section
could identify us with the distant reader in
a way that the text itself might not.

[... also ...]

"The cries of the anguished edited tale-
tellers finally subsided and the story
section of the book was complete in the
latter part of January, 1939. So at last
was the text."

On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepub-
lication copy of the text and some of the
stories and try the book out on our own
membership and on every kind and class of
person that has anything to do with drunks?"

On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard,
a well-known psychiatrist of Montclair, New
Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our
book was too full of the words "you" and "must."

[... also ...]

"To make this shift throughout the text of
the book would be a big job."

On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big
Book will soon be published in Norwegian.
Because of the language similarity, the
Danes and the Swedes will also be able to
read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.

On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows
that we have just published the second edition
of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you
have it in your hands already. Today as we
pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite
fitting that this long-pondered edition is now
in readiness for the future. The scope and
power of its case history section has been
increased, but of course the old familiar
text of the book stands unchanged."

On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book
is a text aimed to show an alcoholic the
attitude he ought to take and precisely the
steps he may follow to effect his own
recovery."

Cheers
Arthur

0 -1 0 0
4805 tsirish1
Dr Bob''s obsession Dr Bob''s obsession 1/18/2008 12:22:00 PM

I have heard for years in meetings the claim
that Dr. Bob never got over his mental
obsession to drink until the day he died.

If that is true, where is that statement
written?

Thanks,
BB Tim

0 -1 0 0
4806 jlobdell54
Confusion on H. F. Heard Confusion on H. F. Heard 1/21/2008 10:41:00 AM

I have recently seen on a couple of AA-related
history sites a statement that H. F. Heard was
a pen-name for Aldous Huxley.

In fact H. F. Heard was Henry FitzGerald Heard
(1889-1971) who also wrote as Gerald Heard.

He was a friend of Aldous Huxley (and of Bill
Wilson) but he certainly was not Aldous
Huxley.

I thought perhaps this ought to be noted on
the HistoryLovers website.

0 -1 0 0
4807 Arthur S
Re: the phrase AA textbook (correction) the phrase AA textbook (correction) 1/20/2008 7:41:00 PM

Hi

Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I
goofed on an AA Comes of Age page reference.

The ending citation referring to pages 315-316
are incorrect and should read 307-308.

Thanks Laurie!

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23 PM
To: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook

Hey Tom

"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms that seemed to be
well-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used generically
early in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book pages
numbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed).

In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One more
noteworthy event marked this period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'s
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume is strictly a
textbook which explains A.A.'s twenty-four basic principles and their
application, in detail and with great care."

On page 154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book were
someday to become the chief text for our fellowship."

Further Big Book references:

On page 162: Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much.
As the remainder of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, they
continued to report their approval.

On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of the book when it
was evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a story
or case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the story
section could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the text
itself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished edited
taletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was complete
in the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text."

On page 165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text and
some of the stories and try the book out on our own membership and on every
kind and class of person that has anything to do with drunks?"

On page 167: "One of them came from Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist of
Montclair, New Jersey. He pointed out that the text of our book was too full
of the words "you" and "must." [... also ...] "To make this shift throughout
the text of the book would be a big job."

On pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published in
Norwegian. Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes will
also be able to read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.

On page 220: "Everyone here at St. Louis knows that we have just published
the second edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it in
your hands already. Today as we pass A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quite
fitting that this long-pondered edition is now in readiness for the future.
The scope and power of its case history section has been increased, but of
course the old familiar text of the book stands unchanged."

On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text aimed to show an
alcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he may
follow to effect his, own recovery."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hickcox
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook

Message 4798 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
on "History of the term Conference Approved"

>I love getting into these kind of AA history
>fragments.
>
>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel 1
>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the
>first General Service Conference in 1951, but
>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)
>all of which were passed unanimously.
>
>Among them was one that read "This Conference
>feels that in future years AA textbook
>literature should have Conference approval."

- - - -

I love reading your contributions to this
forum, Arthur!

Did that panel define the term "A.A. textbook"?

I look in the two books that I consider to
be A.A. textbooks, the Big Book and the 12x12,
and the term textbook is used exactly once,
in the 12x12, and refers to school and
medical textbooks.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge





Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
4808 Jay Lawyer
RE: Dr Bob''s obsession Dr Bob''s obsession 1/19/2008 6:14:00 AM

BB Tom,

Open your BB. In Doctor Bob's Nightmare (pg
181, 3rd edition), he explains, "Unlike most
of our crowd, I did not get over my craving
for liquor much during the first two and
one-half years of abstinence. It was almost
always with me"

Here is your answer straight from the
Doc's mouth: for "the first 2-1/2 years,"
NOT "until the day he died."

So it would seem that this statement that you
have heard at meetings is untrue.

Jay

- - - -

Message #4805 from <tsirish1@yahoo.com>
(tsirish1 at yahoo.com)

I have heard for years in meetings the claim
that Dr. Bob never got over his mental
obsession to drink until the day he died.

If that is true, where is that statement
written?

Thanks,
BB Tim

0 -1 0 0
4809 flat412acrehouse
Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment 1/19/2008 10:06:00 AM

Big Book pages 142-143

Dear Glenn

I hope that you are keeping well.

With regards to the above pages from To
Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who
are drinking,or who are just getting over a
spree, a certain amount of physical treatment
is desirable, even imperative...If you propose
such a procedure to him, it may be necessary
to advance the cost of treatment, but we
believe it should be made plain to him that
any expense will later be deducted from
his pay."

One of our group wished to know where the
idea that your employee would pay back for
any of his medical treatment came from.

Thanking you in anticipation
Gentle blessings
Leah

- - - -

From the moderator:

I'm going to ask some of our group who
know more about the history of employee
medical and health insurance programs
in the United States if they can tell us
more about what it was like in 1939,
when the Big Book was published.

My father told me that the railroads had
railroad doctors back then, who would saw
off your leg if you were a railroad worker
who got your leg crushed between two
couplers. But do any of the people in
our group know if even that was common?

There were a few places in the U.S. by
1939 where employees could pay for medical
or hospitalization insurance, but this was
not widespread or common, to the best of
my knowledge.

And the problem with alcoholism was that
this was regarded by most people as a
moral failing, which should simply be
treated punitively. Just fire him! Or
throw him in jail. That was what most
people would have said.

So even the very few people who had some
kind of medical or hospitalization insurance
in 1939 would not have been able to use it
for alcohol-related problems.

The disease concept of alcoholism was
introduced in an attempt to get medical
treatment provided for alcoholics when
they needed it (for detoxing for example).

But in the U.S. in 1939, the idea that an
employer might advance money to an employee
to go into a hospital to detox (even if the
employee paid the money back afterwards)
was a quite radical new idea. To the best
of my knowledge anyway.

Who in our group knows more about employee
health benefits (if any) and how they were
handled in the U.S. back in the 1930's?

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

- - - -

P.S. And for the sake of the younger folks
in the U.K. and places like that, we need
to remember that even in the U.K., the
National Health Service did not come along
until 1948.

See the Wikipedia article on "Health care"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care

"In most developed countries and many
developing countries health care is provided
to everyone regardless of their ability to
pay. The National Health Service in the United
Kingdom was the world's first universal
health care system provided by government.
It was established in 1948 by Clement Atlee's
Labour government. Alternatively, compulsory
government funded health insurance with
nominal fees can be provided, as with Italy,
which, according to the World Health Organisation,
has the second-best health system in the world.
Other examples are Medicare in Australia,
established in the 1970s by the Labor government,
and by the same name Medicare was established
in Canada between 1966 and 1984. Universal
health care contrasts to the systems like health
care in the United States or South Africa."

0 -1 0 0
4810 Mitchell K.
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/18/2008 7:15:00 PM

Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash:

From: "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

While the textbook defining continues, the
book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is
and has been identified as an interpretive
commentary written by a co-founder. If the
12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving
information, The Little Red Book is also a
textbook of equal value and validity.

The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous
World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved
book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again --
an interpretive commentary written by a
co-founder.

The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a
commentary ON the program. If the fact that
Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T.
wrote the book gives it validity, the fact
that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into
the writing of The Little Red Book gives it
equal validity.

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

And please don't miss that the foreword in the
12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics
Anonymous' became the basic text of the
Fellowship, and it still is."

Just Love,

Barefoot Bill

0 -1 0 0
4811 secondles
Re: Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment 1/21/2008 3:07:00 PM

Hi Folks !

I am one of those "old" ones who lived (as a
child) in the early 1930s living in a small
town in Vermont. My father worked in several
small but national branches of industry.

"Benefits" was not a term known then. Pay was
handled in cash in a small envelope. There
was nothing held out for taxes and there
never was an accounting (by the employer)
for wages paid annually.

I can only assume that the instance cited in
the Big Book might occur on a very individual
basis, and perhaps only as a speculation rather
than a common practice. The period of the
Great Depression (1930s) was a very unstable
time, and work, any work, was usually hard to
come by.

As Glenn remarks, public attitude was callous
or harsh regarding alcoholics, let alone
thinking of offering "help" or giving
"benefits."

Regards to all

Les

- - - -

"flat412acrehouse" <leah@...> wrote:
>
> Big Book pages 142-143
>
> Dear Glenn
>
> I hope that you are keeping well.
>
> With regards to the above pages from To
> Employers it states, "For most alcoholics who
> are drinking,or who are just getting over a
> spree, a certain amount of physical treatment
> is desirable, even imperative...If you propose
> such a procedure to him, it may be necessary
> to advance the cost of treatment, but we
> believe it should be made plain to him that
> any expense will later be deducted from
> his pay."
>
> One of our group wished to know where the
> idea that your employee would pay back for
> any of his medical treatment came from.
>
> Thanking you in anticipation
> Gentle blessings
> Leah

0 -1 0 0
4812 Glenn Chesnut
Photos of Victor Kitchen Photos of Victor Kitchen 1/24/2008 2:44:00 PM

Photos of Victor C. Kitchen (from his family
and other sources) have now been collected at:

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html

Vic was a member of the Oxford Group in New
York City and a friend of Bill Wilson's when
Bill joined the Oxford Group. Dr. Bob may
have met him too, when Vic visited Ohio as
part of an Oxford Group team.

Vic wrote an important Oxford Group work,
"I Was a Pagan."

Vic (a New York advertising executive) eventu-
ally became a full time worker for all the
rest of his life for the Oxford Group and its
successor Moral Re-Armament.

0 -1 0 0
4813 David LeBlanc
First woman in AA? First woman in AA? 1/22/2008 11:53:00 PM

A question came up in my group. Who was the
first woman to join AA and when did she join?

Can anyone help?

- - - -

From the moderator: if you go to our Message
Board at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

And do a search for "first woman" in quotation
marks, you will see that there is a lot of
debate about who holds this honor. Part of
this is a matter of definition. Do you just
want to know the first woman who tried the
program, even if she only stayed sober for
two or three weeks, and then went back out and
never came back?

Message 3588 from Tom Hickcox
<cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)
says (accurately I believe) that if we want
to ask who was the first woman who joined AA
and gained long term sobriety, that the top
two candidates are:

Sylvia Kauffmann, whose story in the Big
Book was the "Keys to the Kingdom"

Marty Mann, whose story in the Big Book
was "Women Suffer Too"

Nancy Olson, the founder of the
AAHistoryLovers, put together (with the
help of other members of this group)
a set of short biographies of the people
whose stories got in the Big Book. You
can read Nancy's account of both Sylvia's
life and Marty's life (with photographs of
both women) in that set of biographies.

This appears in more than one place online,
but one place is Al W.'s West Baltimore AA
website (Al and Nancy were very good friends,
and Al was one of her greatest personal
supporters):

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

If you want a fuller account of Mrs. Marty
Mann's life, the full biography is Sally
Brown and David R. Brown, "A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alco-
holics Anonymous (Center City, Minnesota:
Hazelden, 2001).

There is also interesting material about
Marty Mann in passing in both of these books:

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
4814 Tom Hickcox
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/21/2008 5:11:00 PM

>From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
>(barefootbill at optonline.net)
>
>And please don't miss that the foreword in the
>12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics
>Anonymous' became the basic text of the
>Fellowship, and it still is."

- - - -

That part of the foreword has stuck out to me
for some time.

The foreword itself has a lot of useful
information. Do we know who wrote it?

The language says that the Big Book was not
written as "the basic text of the Fellowship"
but the book became that at some point down
the road. My question would be, what point
was that and what are the references for
that particular date?

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4815 jenny andrews
Re: the phrase AA textbook (correction) the phrase AA textbook (correction) 1/22/2008 6:44:00 AM

We should note that the quotation from pp
307-8 in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age
is from an appendix - a paper titled "A new
approach to psychotherapy in chonic alcoholism"
by William Silkworth, a non-AA member comment-
ing about the Big Book.

Laurie A.

- - - -

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comFrom: ArtSheehan@msn.comDate: Sun, 20 Jan
2008 18:41:02 -0600Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA textbook
(correction)

Hi Laurie A kindly pointed out to me that I goofed on an AA Comes of Age page
reference.The ending citation referring to pages 315-316 are incorrect and
should read 307-308.Thanks Laurie!CheersArthur-----Original Message-----From:
Arthur S [mailto:artsheehan@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:23
PMTo: 'AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com'Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the
phrase AA textbookHey Tom"AA textbook" "basic text" and "text" are terms that
seemed to bewell-seeded. My sense is that the terms were initially used
genericallyearly in AA history and over time came to signify the Big Book
pagesnumbered 1 thru 164 (previously 1 thru 174 in the 1st ed).In AA Comes of
Age" (pg 219) Bill W describes the 12&12: "One morenoteworthy event marked this
period of quiet: the publication of A.A.'sTwelve Steps and Twelve Traditions in
1953. This small volume is strictly atextbook which explains A.A.'s twenty-four
basic principles and theirapplication, in detail and with great care."On page
154, Bill refers to the Big Book: "Suppose our embryo book weresomeday to become
the chief text for our fellowship."Further Big Book references:On page 162:
Akronites like Paul and Dick S. liked the new steps very much.As the remainder
of the book text developed, based on the Twelve Steps, theycontinued to report
their approval.On page 164: "We had not gone much farther with the text of the
book when itwas evident that something more was needed. There would have to be a
storyor case history section." [... also ...] "It was felt also that the
storysection could identify us with the distant reader in a way that the
textitself might not. [... also ...] "The cries of the anguished
editedtaletellers finally subsided and the story section of the book was
completein the latter part of January, 1939. So at last was the text."On page
165: "Had we not better make a prepublication copy of the text andsome of the
stories and try the book out on our own membership and on everykind and class of
person that has anything to do with drunks?"On page 167: "One of them came from
Dr. Howard, a well-known psychiatrist ofMontclair, New Jersey. He pointed out
that the text of our book was too fullof the words "you" and "must." [... also
...] "To make this shift throughoutthe text of the book would be a big job."On
pages 200-201: At Oslo, we hope our Big Book will soon be published inNorwegian.
Because of the language similarity, the Danes and the Swedes willalso be able to
read our basic text when it appears in Norwegian.On page 220: "Everyone here at
St. Louis knows that we have just publishedthe second edition of the book
Alcoholics Anonymous. Many of you have it inyour hands already. Today as we pass
A.A.'s twentieth milestone, it is quitefitting that this long-pondered edition
is now in readiness for the future.The scope and power of its case history
section has been increased, but ofcourse the old familiar text of the book
stands unchanged."On pages 315-316: "The first half of the book is a text aimed
to show analcoholic the attitude he ought to take and precisely the steps he
mayfollow to effect his, own recovery."CheersArthur-----Original
Message-----From:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Tom HickcoxSent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:12 PMTo:
AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.comSubject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase AA
textbookMessage 4798 from "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at
msn.com) on "History of the term Conference Approved">I love getting into these
kind of AA history>fragments.>>There were only 37 US and Canadian Panel
1>Delegates (1/2 the planned number) at the>first General Service Conference in
1951, but>they passed quite a few advisory actions (16)>all of which were passed
unanimously.>>Among them was one that read "This Conference>feels that in future
years AA textbook>literature should have Conference approval."- - - -I love
reading your contributions to this forum, Arthur!Did that panel define the term
"A.A. textbook"?I look in the two books that I consider to be A.A. textbooks,
the Big Book and the 12x12, and the term textbook is used exactly once, in the
12x12, and refers to school and medical textbooks.Tommy H in Baton RougeYahoo!
Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
4816 dino
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/22/2008 11:09:00 AM

Ditto to everything said by Mitch and Bill.
Nowhere in the Big Book does it say that
it's a text book. It says: "Because this book
has become the Basic text for our society..."

I think the key word here is basic (i.e. the
number 1, fundamental, main book used to
convey the story of how the first 40 members
recovered from alcoholism.)

In the 12&12 pg. 17 Bill states "When pub-
lished in 1939 the book Alcoholics Anonymous
became the basic text of our society and
still is the purpose of this present volume
(the 12&12) is to broaden and deepen our
understanding of the steps as first written
in the earlier work.

I would imagine(who knows?) that on pg. 219
of AACOA that Bill is intending the 12/12 to
instruct the (oftimes reluctant)fellowship at
large about the spiritual and practical
dimensions of the traditions and how they
complement and reinforce one another.

The Conference itself has never to my knowledge
refered to the 12/12 as a textbook.

THANKS

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> Comments from Mitchell K. and Bill Lash:
>
> From: "Mitchell K."
> <mitchell_k_archivist@...>
> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
>
> While the textbook defining continues, the
> book Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is
> and has been identified as an interpretive
> commentary written by a co-founder. If the
> 12&12 is a textbook by virtue of giving
> information, The Little Red Book is also a
> textbook of equal value and validity.
>
> The description given by Alcoholics Anonymous
> World Services, Inc. in the Conference-Approved
> book Alcoholics Anonymous is, once again --
> an interpretive commentary written by a
> co-founder.
>
> The 12&12 is not THE program. It is a
> commentary ON the program. If the fact that
> Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr. Harry T.
> wrote the book gives it validity, the fact
> that Dr. Bob had a great deal of input into
> the writing of The Little Red Book gives it
> equal validity.
>
> - - - -
>
> From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@...>
> (barefootbill at optonline.net)
>
> And please don't miss that the foreword in the
> 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The book 'Alcoholics
> Anonymous' became the basic text of the
> Fellowship, and it still is."
>
> Just Love,
>
> Barefoot Bill

0 -1 0 0
4817 Dean at ComPlanners
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/22/2008 11:07:00 AM

AAHistoryLovers,

In case it has been missed ...

The dust jacket of the Fourth Edition has
this statement: "This is the Fourth Edition
of the Big Book, the Basic Text for Alcoholics
Anonymous."

Note that the statement includes the entire
book. A Bill W. quote (from a 1953 letter)
appears on the inside flap: "The story
section of the Big Book is far more important
than most of us think. It is our principle
means of identifying with the reader outside
A.A.; it is the written equivalent of hearing
speakers at an A.A. meeting; it is our show
window of results."

Dean

0 -1 0 0
4818 Arthur S
RE: Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/25/2008 1:22:00 PM

There is a great deal of "AA theater" in the
way some choose to officiously portray the
Big Book and ordain it to a hyper-hallowed
station on the altar of sobriety.

I love the Big Book, study it, and use it for
12th Step work. I also use the 12&12 and
consider it a necessary companion to the Big
Book given the minimal amount of text in the
Big Book on several of the 12 Steps. The 12
Steps and their explanation occurred late in
the production of the Big Book and it shows.
I believe the 12&12 was intended to compensate
for this and dislike seeing the 12&12 directly
or indirectly trivialized in comparison to
the Big Book.

It's been my understanding (and practice) to
refer to a particular portion of the Big Book
as the "basic text" of the book. That portion
is essentially defined by what is included in
the abridged edition. It is also the portion
of the Big Book that several Conferences
repeatedly put off-limits for any changes
during the development of the 4th edition. This
does not mean that the terms "basic text" and
"textbook" cannot be used to generically
describe other literature works. In fact,
historically, both terms have been used by
Bill W and the Conference to do just that.

In his January 1961 letter to Dr Jung, Bill W
wrote "There immediately came to me an
illumination of enormous impact and dimension,
something which I have since tried to describe
in the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' and also
in 'AA Comes of Age,' basic texts which I am
sending to you."

The 1953 final Conference report, under
Literature Committee recommendations, noted
"Ask the Delegates to weigh this question
for submission to the 1954 Conference: Does
the Conference feel it should depart from
its purely textbook program by printing
non-textbook literature such as the 24 Hour
Book of Meditation?" The 12&12 was introduced
at the 1953 Conference so it seems that it
was considered a part of the "purely textbook
program" as were the rest of Bill's literature
projects approved by the 1952 General Service
Conference.

My impression is that the terms "text book"
and/or "basic text" generically applied to
any book that explained AA's principles (the
Steps, Traditions and later the Concepts).
Terminology can either illuminate or obfuscate.
Please see the embedded replies below and
make your own judgment:

-------------------------

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: the phrase
AA textbook -- Comments from Mitchell K. and
Bill Lash:

From: "Mitchell K."

Comment 1: While the textbook defining
continues, the book Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions is and has been identified as an
interpretive commentary written by a
co-founder. If the 12&12 is a textbook by
virtue of giving information, The Little
Red Book is also a textbook of equal value
and validity.

Reply 1:

Identified by whom and when and by what
authority? In AA Comes of Age" (pg 219) Bill W
describes the 12&12 with the statement: "One
more noteworthy event marked this period of
quiet: the publication of AA's Twelve Steps and
Twelve Traditions in 1953. This small volume
is strictly a textbook which explains AA's
twenty-four basic principles and their
application, in detail and with great care."
The 1952 final Conference report noted that
Bill W identified his plans for what became
the Steps portion of the 12&12 with a
description of it being "A series of orderly,
point-by-point essays on the Twelve Steps."
The 1952 final Conference report further noted
that "Bill exhibited to the Conference a sample
copy of 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,'
his first full-length commentary on AA since
the writing of The Big Book." The statement
seems to also describe the Big Book as a
"full-length commentary" (which takes nothing
at all away from the Big Book).

Comment 2: The description given by Alcoholics
Anonymous World Services, Inc. in the
Conference-Approved book Alcoholics Anonymous
is, once again -- an interpretive commentary
written by a co-founder.

Reply 2:

All editions of the Big Book are silent on the
12&12. Can a specific source reference be
provided so that what is cited can be verified?
The 2007 Conference-Approved Literature Catalog
describes the 12&12 with the statement: "Bill
W's 24 essays on the Steps and the Traditions
discuss the principles of individual recovery
and group unity." The AA.org web site
description is "Twelve Steps and Twelve
Traditions (192 pages) Published in 1953,
this book contains a detailed interpretation
of principles of personal recovery and group
survival by Bill W, co-founder of the Fellow-
ship." It doesn't seem appropriate to me to
trivialize the 12&12 with the rubric
"interpretive commentary by a co-founder."
The 12&12 was a major and important work and
a very deliberate follow-on work to the Big
Book to explain the 12 Steps (and Traditions)
in detail.

Comment 3: The 12&12 is not THE program. It
is a commentary ON the program. If the fact
that Bill and Tom Powers and probably Dr.
Harry T. wrote the book gives it validity,
the fact that Dr. Bob had a great deal of
input into the writing of The Little Red Book
gives it equal validity.

Reply 3:

The attempted semantic distinctions of
uppercase "THE" and "ON" are fatuous and
absurd. The 12 Steps are the principles of
AA's program of recovery. Both the Big Book
and 12&12 provide "basic text" (i.e. "the
main body of a book") to explain those
principles. Bill W is credited as the primary
author of both works (and as a rule received
assistance from others in all his writing
projects). The 12&12 does a far better job
explaining Steps 6, 7 and 8 with its 20 pages
(pgs 63-82) of "interpretive commentary by
a co-founder" than do the 3 paragraphs of
"THE" program in the Big Book (pg 76).

It seems fairly obvious, and common sense,
that the 12&12 and Big Book are companion works
in an evolutionary sequence of accumulated
experience. When the Big Book was published
in 1939 Bill W was 4 years sober, there were 2
groups and around 100 members. When the 12&12
was published in 1953 Bill was 19 years sober,
there were an estimated 6,000 groups and
128,000 members. It suggests to me that a lot
more experience went into writing the 12&12
than the Big Book (I hope that doesn't consti-
tute AA heresy or apostasy).

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>

Comment: And please don't miss that the
foreword in the 12 & 12 (page 17) says, "The
book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became the basic
text of the Fellowship, and it still is."

Reply:

Please also don't miss the sentence that
immediately follows the one cited that states
"This present volume (i.e. the 12&12) proposes
to broaden and deepen the understanding of the
Twelve Steps as first written in the earlier
work." (i.e. the Big Book)

Also it seems relevant to cite the last para-
graph of the 12&12 Foreword (pg 18) which
states "It is hoped that this volume will
afford all who read it a close-up view of the
principle that made Alcoholics Anonymous what
it is."

Cheers

Arthur

0 -1 0 0
4819 jlobdell54
Dr. Bob''s Continuing Temptation Dr. Bob''s Continuing Temptation 1/25/2008 12:28:00 PM

From Dr. Bob's Last Major Talk, December 1948:

"The fact that my sobriety has been maintained
continuously for 13½ years doesn't allow me to
think that I am necessarily any further away
from my next drink than any of you people. I'm
still very human, and I still think a double
Scotch would taste awfully good. If it wouldn't
produce disastrous results, I might try it.
I don't know. I have no reason to think that
it would taste any different - but I have no
legitimate reason to believe that the results
would be any different, either."

This does suggest that he continued to think
about drinking.

- - - -

From: "johnlawlee" <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

Many of the people posting messages on this
topic are confusing the term "obsession" with
a "craving" or urge to drink. An obsession is
an idea that blocks all other ideas. If an
alcoholic gets an obsession to drink, he always
drinks.

Doctor Bob's last obsession to drink was in
June of 1935. He reported thoughts of drinking
in his 1939 First Edition story, but never
had an obsession to drink after June of 1935.

The difference between a craving and an
obsession is explained on pages xxviii, xxix
and xxx of The Doctor's Opinion in the Big
Book.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

0 -1 0 0
4820 Mitchell K.
Re: Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment Employees paying back for alcoholism treatment 1/22/2008 7:50:00 AM

In the early days in Cleveland, if one could
not afford treatment (which equated only to
detox in an "approved" hospital) there was
the AA Association. Members laid out the cost
of detox and the individual paid them back.
Usually, if a prospect was in danger of losing
their job or already had lost their job, the
local AA members visited the employer and due
to their overwhelming success and reputation,
the employer quite often allowed the alcoholic
employee to continue working after detox and
attending meetings. There was a connection
with the employer, the courts, the hospitals,
etc. and AA members so that wages could have
been garnished if the individual didn't pay
the cost back to the AAA so that others might
also benefit.

Records from Cleveland showed balance sheets
from the association showing who was in the
hospital, how much they owed, who paid back,
etc.

Not sure if this was what the book referred
to but I would think that the practice wasn't
unknown in other places.

0 -1 0 0
4821 Robert Stonebraker
Re: First woman in AA? First woman in AA? 1/25/2008 4:24:00 AM

From Arthur S. and Bob S.

Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),
Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron)

- - - -

David L. asked: A question came up in my group.
Who was the first woman to join AA and when did
she join?

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

The first woman member was Florence R
(from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is
"A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the
Washington DC/Baltimore area.

Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a
possible suicide).

Fitz M identified her in the morgue.

Arthur

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker"
<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

Who was first, Jane or Florence?

Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S.
(Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have
not been able to discover which was first
to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group
as it was then.

This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123
from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers:

Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had
already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent
and Canton, and it was probably early 1937
when a few prospects started drifting down
from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in
twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two
carloads.)

Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the
35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in
1937, about the same time he started. Colorful
and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor,
Jane is said to be the first woman in the
area to have attained any length of sobriety -
meaning a few months.

Oldtimers long remembered her story of being
left unattended by her husband to supervise
the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she
and the paperhanger started drinking. Each
time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or
the other would walk into it. When her husband
came home that evening, both Jane and the
paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by
empty bottles (as her husband told her later)
and all bound up in shredded paper and waste.

- - - -

Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of
1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find,
stayed sober till she died. At any rate,
she was credited having the longest
uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA.

I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From
Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA
at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till
she died (April 1963).

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
4822 Glenn Chesnut
Re: First woman in AA? First woman in AA? 1/25/2008 4:31:00 PM

Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),
Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron),
Mary Campbell (from somewhere in the South),
Lil (in Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98,
109, 241), and of course Marty Mann, are all
names of women which appear in accounts of the
early AA period.

- - - -

Message 3169 from "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3169

The name Jane S. does not appear in any of
the early Cleveland archival materials or
dozens of meeting rosters or histories of all
the original groups compiled by Norm E., the
recording statistician from the Cleveland
Central Committee in the early 1940's.

- - - -

Message 4543 from "t"
<tcumming@nc.rr.com> (tcumming at nc.rr.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4543

"First 100" [list] has the name
Jane Sturden on it.

- - - -

Message 3132 from <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132

The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA
(in 1935) was the legendary "Lil" of the
"Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241).
"Lil" reputedly sobered up outside AA. However,
it is said she never got far enough along to
attend a meeting.

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides
Jane S' relative dry date through old-timer
Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came
into AA in February 1937" (then on pg 122)
"remembered that Jane S was making the
35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in
1937, about the same time he started" [Jane's
trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241
later indicates that Jane was the wife of
a "vice-president of a large steel company."

The key words in her relative dry date are
"about the same time" [relative to February
1937]. I can't find a hard written reference
to confirm it, but sources I trust for
credibility indicate that Jane S stayed sober
for only a few months.

"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it
states "The name 'One Hundred Men' fell by the
wayside because of objections of Florence R,
at that time the only female member." It's odd
that Jane S' name isn't also mentioned as a
female member "at that time." Is it possible
that that she had already fallen off the wagon
and departed?

The edited story section of the Big Book was
completed "in the latter part of January 1939"
(re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of
the manuscript was likely completed in the
latter part of March (the book was published
April 4, 1939).

Florence R, states in her story "... The
drinking ended the morning I got there ..."
["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd
time]. She then later states "That was more
than a year ago." In manuscript versions,
circulating around the internet, the sentence
read "That was several years ago" which is
quite obviously wrong. The key words in her
relative dry date are "more than a year ago"
[but from when?].

So how to do the reckoning to establish female
member primacy? It seems to be a contest
between the precision inherent in the relative
values denoted by "about" or "more than."

Did Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall
on February 1st or 28th (that's almost a
month's difference) or February 14 (to split
the difference)or could late January (31st)
or early March (1st)?

Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year
ago" relative to late January 1939 (when the
edited stories were completed) or mid to late
March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If
it is March 1939, then Jane S may have primacy
(and that is only a "may have"). If "more than"
is relative to January or February 1939 then
Florence R has primacy or perhaps it's a tie.
The problem is does "more than" mean a day, a
week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or
14 months or what?

So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence.
Why? Florence stayed dry for over a year. Jane S
lasted for a few months. If it's mainly about
when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats
them both. If the elapsed time before they
returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then
by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member
of AA and should be a founder.

- - - -

Message 3132 from: "mertonmm3"
<mertonmm3@yahoo.com>
(mertonmm3 at yahoo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3132

Women in the plural because, I believe in the NY/NJ/CT area (which
functioned as one during most of the time) they began with one woman
(Florence R. of Westfield N.J.), and around the time of the release of
the book Marty M., then a patient of Blythewood Sanitarium, became
number 2.

- - - -

Message 3112 from "Sally Brown"
<rev.sally@worldnet.att.net>
(rev.sally at worldnet.att.net)

Still another was Mary Campbell, from somewhere
in the South, I believe. Dave and I don't know
her sobriety date or when she arrived in AA,
but it was before April 1939 when Marty Mann
went from Blythewood to her first AA meeting,
held at the Wilsons' home in Brooklyn. Mary
actually visited Marty at Blythewood. She
relapsed in 1944, then returned to AA and
stayed sober until she died in the 1990s.

- - - -

Message 589 from t <tcumming@airmail.net>
Email address is now <tcumming@nc.rr.com>
(tcumming at nc.rr.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/589

People In AA History - Part 4

I thru M

Jane S. - 1st woman Akron area maintain few
months sobriety, married vice president large
steel company (D 122,241)

0 -1 0 0
4823 Arthur S
Re: First woman in AA? (Florence R vs Jane S) First woman in AA? (Florence R vs Jane S) 1/25/2008 4:45:00 PM

From message # 3132

The first woman to arrive on the scene in AA (in 1935) was the
legendary "Lil" of the "Victor and Lil" duo in Akron, OH (re "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers pgs 97-98, 109, 241). "Lil" reputedly sobered
up outside AA. However, it is said she never got far enough along to
attend a meeting.

I'm not sure if the dry dates of Florence R or Jane S can be stated
with certainty or precision. Take for example Dr Bob's stated dry date
(June 10, 1935)and the starting date of the AMA convention in Atlantic
City, when he had his last binge for a few days (also June 10, 1935).

"Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" provides Jane S' relative dry date
through old-timer Bob E. On pg 101 it states "Bob E who came into AA
in February 1937" (then on pg 122) "remembered that Jane S was making
the 35-mile trip to the meeting at T Henry's in 1937, about the same
time he started" [Jane's trip was from Cleveland to Akron]. Pg 241
later indicates that Jane was the wife of a "vice-president of a large
steel company."

The key words in her relative dry date are "about the same time"
[relative to February 1937]. I can't find a hard written reference to
confirm it, but sources I trust for credibility indicate that Jane S
stayed sober for only a few months.

"Pass It On" mentions Florence R. On pg 202 it states "The name 'One
Hundred Men' fell by the wayside because of objections of Florence R,
at that time the only female member." It's odd that Jane S' name isn't
also mentioned as a female member "at that time." Is it possible that
that she had already fell off the wagon and departed?

The edited story section of the Big Book was completed "in the latter
part of January 1939" (re "AA Comes of Age" pg 164). The mark-up of
the manuscript was likely completed in the latter part of March (the
book was published April 4, 1939).

Florence R, states in her story "... The drinking ended the morning I
got there ..." ["there" was Bill and Lois' home for the 2nd time]. She
then later states "That was more than a year ago." In manuscript
versions, circulating around the internet, the sentence read "That was
several years ago" which is quite obviously wrong. The key words in
her relative dry date are "more than a year ago" [but from when?].

So how to do the reckoning to establish female member primacy? It
seems to be a contest between the precision inherent in the relative
values denoted by "about" or "more than."

Is Jane S' dry date of "around February" fall on February 1st or 28th
(that's almost a month's difference) or February 14 (to split the
difference)or could late January (31st) or early March (1st)?

Is Florence R's dry date of "more than a year ago" relative to late
January 1939 (when the edited stories were completed) or mid to late
March 1939 when the mark-up was completed? If it is March 1939, then
Jane S may have primacy (and that is only a "may have"). If "more
than" is relative to January or February 1939 then Florence R has
primacy or perhaps it's a tie. The problem is does "more than" mean a
day, a week or weeks, a month, 365 days + 1, 13 or 14 months or what?

So which is earlier? I'm sticking with Florence. Why? Florence stayed
dry for over a year. Jane S lasted for a few months. If it's mainly
about when they showed up then legendary "Lil" beats them both. If the
elapsed time before they returned to drinking doesn't factor in, then
by that logic, Ebby T is the first male member of AA and should be a
founder.

However, it probably boils down to "truth by choice." In any event the
matter is not by any means certain.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Stonebraker
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:24 AM
To: AA HistoryLovers; MuncieAA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First woman in AA?

From Arthur S. and Bob S.

Florence Rankin (New York), Jane S. (Cleveland),
Sylvia Kauffmann (Chicago), Ethel Macy (Akron)

- - - -

David L. asked: A question came up in my group.
Who was the first woman to join AA and when did
she join?

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

The first woman member was Florence R
(from NY). Her 1st edition Big Book story is
"A Feminine Victory." She relocated to the
Washington DC/Baltimore area.

Sadly she died drunk in the early 1940s (a
possible suicide).

Fitz M identified her in the morgue.

Arthur

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker"
<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

Who was first, Jane or Florence?

Both Florence Rankin (New York) and Jane S.
(Cleveland) came to AA in 1937, but I have
not been able to discover which was first
to join AA or, of course, the Oxford Group
as it was then.

This humorous story is from Pages 122 & 123
from Dr. Bob & The Good Oldtimers:

Word of Akron's "not-drinking-liquor club" had
already spread to nearby towns, such as Kent
and Canton, and it was probably early 1937
when a few prospects started drifting down
from Cleveland. In the beginning, it was in
twos and threes. (By 1939, there were two
carloads.)

Bob E. remembered that Jane S. was making the
35-mile trip to the meeting at T. Henry's in
1937, about the same time he started. Colorful
and vivacious, with a fine sense of humor,
Jane is said to be the first woman in the
area to have attained any length of sobriety -
meaning a few months.

Oldtimers long remembered her story of being
left unattended by her husband to supervise
the wallpapering of a room. Trouble was, she
and the paperhanger started drinking. Each
time he began to hang a roll of paper, one or
the other would walk into it. When her husband
came home that evening, both Jane and the
paperhanger had passed out, surrounded by
empty bottles (as her husband told her later)
and all bound up in shredded paper and waste.

- - - -

Sylvia Kauffmann got sober in September of
1939 in Chicago and, so far as I can find,
stayed sober till she died. At any rate,
she was credited having the longest
uninterrupted sobriety of any woman in AA.

I believe that Ethel Macy, who wrote "From
Farm To City," was the first lady to join AA
at Akron (May, 1941). She remained sober till
she died (April 1963).

Bob S.





Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
4824 Mitchell K.
Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. First woman in AA? Sylvia K. 1/25/2008 7:04:00 PM

Point of information - As far as I know,
Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
roster from the original Golrick group along
with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

0 -1 0 0
4825 Glenn Chesnut
Spiritus contra spiritum in Eastern Orthodox Christianity Spiritus contra spiritum in Eastern Orthodox Christianity 1/26/2008 6:46:00 PM

The Akathist Hymn and the story of the Icon
of the Inexhaustible Cup

Translated by Sister Dorofea (Mirochnitchenko)
and Katherine Szalasznyj

From the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition

http://www.antiochian.org/1103412970

- - - -

From Glenn C., a brief comment:

You can see a photo of the icon which is
described (it is the second one down) at:

http://rusmonastery.org/eng/chasha.html

This is an Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition
which sees in the Holy Mother the revelation
of the feminine aspect of God. She is the
Theotokos, the one through whom God comes to
birth in our souls. She is the Gate of Heaven,
the Bridge to Heaven, and so on, and in this
case, she is the one who extends to us the
sacred chalice from which we can drink the
true healing Spirit, instead of seeking to
drown ourselves in the false spirit of alcohol.

It is very much the same idea that Carl Jung
tried to explain to Rowland Hazard: spiritus
contra spiritum.

Now let us give the traditional story, as it
appears on that web site:

- - - -

A peasant from the Efremovskii district of
Tula province, a retired soldier, was an
alcoholic, and a drunkard. He would drink
away all his pension, everything that he
possessed, anything that could be found in
his house, and eventually he was ruined and
literally became a beggar. From excessive
drinking, his legs became paralysed, but still
he continued drinking.

One day, the man, who seemed to have hit
rock-bottom, had an unusual dream. In it a
venerable old man came to him and said:

"Go to the city of Serpoukhov, to the
monastery of the Theotokos. There you will
find an icon of the Holy Mother called
The Inexhaustible Cup. Have a moleben
[a formal religious service of intercession
or supplication] before it, and you will be
healed, both spiritually and physically."

Without a penny to his name, and having no
use of his legs, the man did not dare to go
on a journey. But the holy man came to him
a second and then a third time, and was so
adamant in his admonition to obey his
instructions, that the poor drunk did not
dare to disobey any more, and he set off as
quickly as he could, dragging himself on all
fours.

In one of the neighbouring villages where he
stopped to rest, an old woman took him in for
the night. To ease his pain, she massaged his
legs, and put him to rest on top of the clay
oven, a customary place for the old or sickly,
because of the warmth. During the night the
travelling man felt a pleasant sensation in
his legs, and discovered that he was able to
stand. On the following nights his legs
became even stronger. And so, first with two
walking-sticks, and then with just one, he
arrived in Serpoukhov.

Once in the monastery, he told about his
visions, and asked to have the moleben served.
But nobody there had ever heard of such an
icon. They started to search for it, and
noticed one that was hanging in the passage
to the sacristy, that bore an image of a
chalice. On the back of it, to their surprise,
was written "The Inexhaustible Cup".

In the icon of St Varlaam, the disciple of
the holy bishop Metropolitan Aleksii, the
man immediately recognised the face of the
holy elder who had appeared to him in his
dreams.

From Serpoukhov the man departed, completely
healed. The news about the miraculous icon
spread quickly through the city, the region,
and all of Rus. Alcoholics (those bound by
the passion of drink) and their families and
friends, were coming to pray before the Mother
of God for healing, and in time many came back
to thank the all-merciful Theotokos for her
speedy help.

Let it be known that this akathist service came
to us in Canada in 1994, and we perceive that
this is God's will and from the compassion of
the Theotokos. In these times there is the
renewal of the Church's life in the lands of
Rus, and the rediscovery of God's mercy and
tender care. This akathist has been redis-
covered and is now frequently served, although
the current service of which we have a photo-
copy was printed in only 4,000 copies. We
pray that by offering these translations many
souls in North America may be healed and saved.

+ + +

KONTAK 1

A wonderful and marvellous healing has been
given to us by your holy icon, O sovereign
Lady Theotokos. By its appearance we have
been delivered from spiritual and physical
ills, and from sorrowful circumstances. So we
bring you our thankful praise, O all-merciful
Protectress. O sovereign Lady, whom we call
"The Inexhaustible Cup": bend down your ear
and mercifully hear our lamentation and tears
that we bring to you, and give your healing to
those who suffer from drunkenness, so that we
may cry out to you with faith: "REJOICE, O
INEXHAUSTIBLE CUP THAT QUENCHES OUR SPIRITUAL
THIRST!"

IKOS 1

Angelic powers and multitudes of saints con-
tinually glorify you, the Theotokos, Queen
of all, the intercessor for us sinful
Christians wallowing in lawlessness and
remaining in sins. It is for our consolation
and salvation that you in your mercy gave us
your miraculous icon, so that looking upon it,
as at the one and only star among a multitude
of stars on a starlit night, we may prostrate
ourselves, shouting from the very depths of
our heart:

REJOICE, dwelling-place of the unapproachable
God.
REJOICE, our constant wonder.
REJOICE, you make our sorrow wipe away our
sins.
REJOICE, you make our grief heal our ills.
REJOICE, through your miraculous icon, you
bring us your heavenly mercy.
REJOICE, O joy of our grieving heart.
REJOICE, our wonderful reconciliation with God.
REJOICE, O Theotokos, the Inexhaustible Cup
that quenches our spiritual thirst!

Etc., etc.

Sent to me by "John Blair"
<jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)

0 -1 0 0
4826 brian thompson
Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. First woman in AA? Sylvia K. 1/26/2008 6:52:00 PM

--- "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Point of information - As far as I know,
> Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
> was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
> roster from the original Golrick group along
> with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago.
Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date
of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted
her son a few years ago and she died I believe
in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the
first woman to acheve long term sobriety in
AA.

BRIAN T.

0 -1 0 0
4827 Tom Hickcox
Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. First woman in AA? Sylvia K. 1/26/2008 11:02:00 AM

At 18:04 1/25/2008 , Mitchell K. wrote:


>Point of information - As far as I know,
>Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
>was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
>roster from the original Golrick group along
>with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

Her name also appears, with an Evanston,
Illinois address, on the First 226 Members
in Akron list.

I notice on this list, which is available at

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html

and

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc

and has an X by her name indicating an early
member. There are thirty-two so indicated,
including the two founders, Earl Treat, J. D.
Holmes, Archie Trowbridge, and Bill Dotson.

There are two women included besides Sylvia;
Roberta Beckwith from Akron and Ruth Tracy
from Maumee, which is near Toledo.

There is no Warren C. on the list, FWIW.

I wonder how these two women factor in
early A.A.?

Tommy

0 -1 0 0
4828 Glenn Chesnut
Re: First women in AA? First women in AA? 1/27/2008 5:49:00 PM

From "Sally Brown" <rev.sally@att.net>
(rev.sally at att.net)

Don't know how far anyone on AAHistoryLovers
wants to take this fine-tooth combing of which
women got sober when and for how long.

However, I haven't seen a reference in the
posts yet to the book "Women Pioneers in 12
Step Recovery," by Charlotte Hunter, Billye
Jones, Joan Zieger (Hazelden, 1999).

This book has sections on Anne Smith,
Henrietta Seiberling, Sister Ignatia, Lois
Wilson, Ruth Hock, Nell Wing, Sybil C., Ester
Elasardi, Eve M., Geraldine Owen D., Nancy
O'D., Marcelene W., Arbutus O'N., Barbara D.,
Dorothy Riggs M., Dr. Joan K. Jackson, Betty
Ford, Mary Jane Hanley, and Marty Mann. There
is also a note referring to other names that
need to be added to a list of this sort: Sylvia
K., Ethyl M., and Geneva V.

Also, Dave and I mention three other women on
p. 127 of the Marty Mann bio - Bobby Burger
(the long-time secy at AA's GSO), Ila Phillips
(a professional dancer in New York), and
Priscilla Peck (the art director of Vogue
Magazine).

And what about Wynn Corum Laws (joined AA in
California in 1947 at the age of 33), whose
story in the Big Book was "Freedom From
Bondage"?

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number
of additional early AA women who found recovery
in AA in the early-mid 1940s, but are or were
known just to their own communities and
families.

Sometimes I think we may verge on idol (even
"idle"!) worship of sobriety dates. We all
know we're only a drink or a drug away from
disaster. It's only today that matters. I
remember, though, that it's different in
the earlier years of sobriety. "She has
two years? Oh, my God - How can that happen!"
So let me get off my soapbox. Working on a
dual dx unit where there's lots of complicated
relapse sure helps me keep my perspective
- and especially my gratitude.

Thank you again and again and again, all
you loyal, committed AA History Lovers, for
your hard work and careful vetting.

Shalom - Sally

0 -1 0 0
4829 Arthur S
Re: First woman in AA? Sylvia K. First woman in AA? Sylvia K. 1/26/2008 9:11:00 PM

I've got September 13, 1939 for Sylvia K's
dry date. Wasn't Earl T her sponsor?

Extracts from Nancy O's brief biographies of
story authors state:

For Earl T:

When he slipped he realized that the alcoholic
has to continue to take his own inventory
every day if he expects to get well and stay
well. Soon Dan Craske, MD began referring
prospects to him, and another doctor in
Evanston referred a woman. This was Sylvia K
("The Keys to the Kingdom"). Earl suggested
she go to Akron. There they dried her out and
explained the program to her, after which it
was suggested that she return to Chicago to
work with Earl.

For Sylvia K:

In the 1939 this doctor heard of the book
Alcoholics Anonymous ... he told her of the
handful of people in Akron and New York who
seemed to have worked out a technique for
arresting their alcoholism. He asked her to
read the book and to talk with a man who
experiencing success by using this plan.
This was Earl T ("He Sold Himself Short"),
the "Mr. T" to whom she refers on page 309
(pg 268 in 4th ed) ... Earl suggested she
visit Akron. According to Bill W, she got
off to a slow start there ... Sylvia stayed
two weeks with Clarence S, "The Home
Brewmeister" in Cleveland. She met Dr. Bob,
who brought other AA men to meet her.
Dorothy S (Clarence's wife) said that the
men "were only too willing to talk to her
after they saw her." Sylvia was a glamorous
divorcee, extremely good looking, and rich ....

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----

> Point of information - As far as I know,
> Sylvia K. got sober in Cleveland and Clarence
> was her sponsor. Her name appears on a meeting
> roster from the original Golrick group along
> with Dr. Bob, Warren C. and others.

Sylvia K. relapsed when she returned to Chicago.
Her new sobriety date was September 1939 date
of the first AA meeting there. I had contacted
her son a few years ago and she died I believe
in 1969 with 30 yrs of sobriety. She was the
first woman to acheve long term sobriety in
AA.

BRIAN T.

0 -1 0 0
4830 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: the phrase AA textbook the phrase AA textbook 1/25/2008 4:19:00 PM

From Baileygc23, Jon Markle, and Jenny Andrews

- - - -

FROM: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

The big book says, this book is meant to be
suggestive, only. Page 164.

- - - -

FROM: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

While it is true that the front of the
jacket cover contains that statement, the
inside flap, apparently continues to defer
to the more definitive language thus: "The
basic text, pages I - 164, . . . "

Also, if the jacket cover is removed, which
many people do, do we find that statement
repeated elsewhere in the book? If not, then
how important could this assumption be?

So, perhaps it is simply a matter of
extrapolating what exact meaning these two
instances hold for us. If any.

I like the inclusion of Bill Wilson's statement
on the inside flap. However that cannot be
brought forward to today's Book, because the
stories are not the same. His observations can
only be applied to the book at the time of his
writing that letter. We can only assume that
idea might also apply to the current edition.

Of course . . . I don't look at the book as
a sacred work, so it doesn't make so much
difference to me. Except as it's an inter-
esting observation.

All good text books are revised from time to
time. Good information and instruction never
remains stagnant.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

"I would imagine Bill is intending to instruct
the Fellowship..." I doubt it. Bill was always
careful not to instruct ("Our book is meant
to be suggestive only.") The various AA texts
can be compared to a signpost, which gives
neutral directions - not instructions. When
Winston Churchill was Prime Minister he asked
his Education Secretary Rab Butler what could
be done to make children more patriotic. "Tell
them Wolfe won Quebec," he mused. Butler
replied, "I would like to influence what was
taught in schools but this was always frowned
on." "Of course," Churchill rejoined, "not
by instruction or order but by suggestion."

0 -1 0 0
4831 Danny Graham
Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 1/28/2008 12:52:00 PM

I am doing some research on Sybil C. from
Los Angeles and her brother Tex. Does anyone
have a copy of the letter Sybil wrote to
Bill W. following Tex's death in 1958? I have
a copy of Bill's response, but am looking for
the first letter.

- - - -

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html

Sybil C.
The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi
by Nancy O.

Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A.
west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety
was March 23, 1941. Her name at the time was
Sybil Maxwell, though she later opened her
talks by saying, "My name is Sybil Doris Adams
Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis C., and I'm an
alcoholic."

She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908,
in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her
parents were poor but hardworking and she had
a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman
was called "Tex." Sybil adored her big brother.
She remembered that when she was five and he
fifteen, he would hold her and rock her to
sleep.

Tex joined the Army during World War I, was
reported missing in action, and when the family
heard nothing further they assumed he was dead.
However, when Sybil was thirteen they learned
that he was alive and living in Los Angeles.
The family immediately moved to California.

Sybil felt like a misfit in Los Angeles. She
affected the flapper makeup popular at the
time: heavy white powder on her face, and two
big red spots of rouge on her cheeks and lots
of lipstick and black eyebrows.

"I must have looked like a circus freak or
something like that," she wailed. "I was in
eighth grade out there in Los Angeles, and
the other kids laughed at me. I had trouble
making friends, being shy and timid by nature,
but also my papa wouldn't let boys even walk
home with me, let alone go to parties. I just
wasn't allowed to do anything, and I knew I
didn't belong anywhere."

"So naturally I started drinking at a very
early age, against my better judgment, full
of shame and remorse because of Papa's
teachings. He was a good man. When I was
fifteen, I got drunk one night, passed out,
and had to be carried home and put to bed in
my mother's bed. I cried the next day and
promised that it would never happen again --
and I meant it. But I didn't know myself, I
didn't know the disease of alcoholism. The
next Saturday night the kids handed me a
bottle and I drank it. And I continued to do
that through a couple of semesters of high
school, and I stayed drunk through seventeen
years of failed marriages and more jobs than
I can count."

Sybil dropped out of high school and took a
secretarial course and was hired as a secretary.
It was the first in a long list of jobs. At
various times she was a real estate broker,
a taxi driver, a bootlegger, an itinerant farm
worker, the editor of a magazine for pet
owners, and a salesperson. 'I didn't mind
working," she said, "but I never seemed to
get anywhere. I was just on a treadmill because
of booze."

She had a child by her first husband, a sailor.
She thought having the child would prevent
her drinking, but she drank more than ever, and
her parents eventually took the child from
her.

She and her husband hitchhiked out of town to
find grape picking jobs. They thought getting
away from their city friends would help them
quit drinking, but she soon was drunk again.
During one of her drunks she heard music. At
first she thought she was hallucinating, but
she followed the sound and wandered into a
tent where a revival meeting was in progress.
The preacher asked for anyone to come forward
who wanted to be saved.

"Well, that was me," Sybil told A.A. members.
"I went all the way down while the people were
singing. The preacher put his hand out and
placed it on my head, and I threw up all over
him. It was so terrible! I was so ashamed, I
couldn't bring myself to tell anyone about
it until I got into Alcoholics Anonymous eleven
years later."

She left her sailor husband and hitchhiked back
to Los Angeles to her mother's house. Her
brother, Tex, now had a speakeasy on skid row,
and to make money to take to her mother to
support the child, she went into the boot-
legging business with him. Eventually the
speakeasy was raided and they were out of
business. Then she went to work in a taxi-dance
hall.

Little is known of her second husband, but she
met her third husband, Dick Maxwell, while
working in the taxi-dance hall. One night a
rich, handsome stranger walked in and bought
dance tickets with Sybil for the whole night.
During intermission he bought several pitchers
of beer (the girls got a dollar for every
pitcher their partner bought), and she told
him her sad story. He offered to marry her and
adopt her child if she would promise not to
drink any more.

Now she had a wonderful husband, a home, a
housekeeper, and a car. But she couldn't
stop drinking.

In 1939, while visiting her mother, she read
the Liberty magazine article called "Alcoholics
and God." She thought the story fascinating
but did nothing about it and her downward
spiral continued.

Eighteen months later God gave her another
chance, when she read the Saturday Evening
Post's March 1, 1941 issue which contained the
famous Jack Alexander article about A.A.. She
wrote to New York and received a reply from
Ruth Hock, then Bill Wilson's secretary, who
told her that there were no women members in
California, but that Marty Mann was sober in
New York. Ruth referred her to the small group
of men then in the area.

On Friday, March 23, Sybil's nonalcoholic
husband, Dick Maxwell, drove her to the
meeting. They found ten or twelve men seated
around a table and three or four women seated
against the wall. When the chairman began the
meeting he announced "As is our custom before
the regular meeting starts, we have to ask the
women to leave." Sybil left with the other
women but her husband stayed and the members
assumed he was the alcoholic. When he rejoined
Sybil he said "They don't know you're alive.
They just went on and on bragging about their
drinking until I was about to walk out, when
they jumped up and said the Lord's Prayer,
and here I am." Sybil headed for the nearest
bar and got drunk.

But she remembered that Ruth Hock had written,
"If you need help, call Cliff W." and had
given her his phone number. He explained:
"You didn't tell us you were an alcoholic. We
thought you were one of the wives. If you
had identified yourself as an alcoholic,
you would have been welcome as the flowers
in May."

When she returned the following week, Frank R.
brought in a large carton full of letters
bundled into bunches of twenty to fifty. He
explained that they were all inquiries and
calls for help from people in southern Cali-
fornia. "Here they are! Here they are! If any
of you jokers have been sober over fifteen
minutes, come on up here and get these
letters. We've got to get as many of these
drunks as we can in here by next Friday, or
they may die."

The last bundle was of letters from women.
Frank said: "Sybil Maxwell, come on up. I am
going to put you in charge of all the women."

Sybil liked the idea of "being in charge" but
replied, "I can't, sir. You said I have to
make all those calls by next Friday, or
somebody might die. Well, I'll be drunk by
next Friday unless you have some magic that
will change everything so I can stay sober."

Frank explained that everything she needed to
know was in the Big Book. "And it says right
in here that when all other measures fail,
working with another alcoholic will save the
day. That's what you will be doing, Sybil,
working with other alcoholics. You just get
in your car and take your mind off yourself.
Think about someone sicker than you are. Go
see her and hand her the letter she wrote,
and say: 'I wrote one like this last week,
and they answered mine and told me to come
and see you. If you have a drinking problem
like I have, and if you want to get sober as
bad as I do, you come with me and we'll find
out together how to do it.' Don't add another
word to that, because you don't know anything
yet. Just go get 'em."

It worked, and she never had another drink.

When Bill and Lois Wilson made their first
visit to Los Angeles in 1943, Sybil was one
of the delegation of local A.A.'s who met
them at the Town House hotel. Later she met
Marty Mann.

But Dick Maxwell began to feel abandoned and
lonely. He urged her to cut down on her A.A.
activities so that they could have more of a
home life. He had grown to hate A.A. and
refused to read the Big Book or discuss the
Twelve Steps. Finally he suggested that the
solution to their marriage problems was for
her to go back to drinking and he would take
care of her.

Sybil quickly packed a bag and left. She left
her lovely home and rented a housekeeping room
with a gas hotplate and a bath down the hall
for nine dollars a week and went to work for
the L.A. Times to support herself. "A.A. just
had to come first with me," she explained.

Her brother, Tex, joined the week after she
did. He started the second A.A. group in the
area, and appointed Sybil coffeemaker and
greeter for the new group, and finally made
her deliver her first shaky talk.

When Tex died in 1952, Sybil was devastated.
She wrote Bill Wilson, pouring out her grief
and asked, "What am I going to do, Bill?
I don't crave a drink, but I think I'm going
to die unless I get some answers." She said
Bill's answer saved her life. He wrote:
____________________

November 6, 1952

My dear Sybil,

Thanks for your letter of October 21st - it
was just about the most stirring thing I have
read in many a day. The real test of our way
of life is how it works when the chips are
down. Though I've sometimes seen A.A.s make
rather a mess of living, I've never seen a
sober one make a bad job of dying.

But the account you give me of Tex's last days
is something I shall treasure always. I hope
I can do half as well when my time comes. I am
one who believes that in my Father's house
are many mansions. If that were not so there
couldn't be any justice. I can almost see Tex
sitting on the front porch of one, right now,
talking in the sunlight with others of God's
ladies and gentlemen who have gone on before.
I certainly agree with you that little was
left in Tex's grave. All he had was left
behind in the hearts of the rest of us and
he carried just that same amount forward to
where he is now. If you like what I've said,
please read it to the Huntington Park Group.
In any case, congratulate them for me that
they had the privilege of knowing a guy like
Tex.

As for you, my dear, there is no need to give
you advice. How well you understand that the
demonstration is the thing, after all. It
isn't so much a question of whether we have
a good time or a bad time. The only thing that
will be asked is what we do with the
experience we have. That you are doing well
with our tough lot is something for which I
and many others are bound to be grateful. This
is but a long day in school. Some of the
lessons are hard and others are easy. I know
you will keep on learning and passing what
you learned. What more does one person need
to know about another!

Affectionately yours,
/s/ Bill
WGW/nw

Sybil Willis
2874A Randolph
Huntington Park, California
____________________

The letter touched Sybil so deeply she gave
many copies to people who were at a low point
in life, and a few years ago someone I met at
an on-line meeting sent a copy to me.

At the time of the letter, she was married
to Jim Willis, the founder of Gamblers'
Anonymous.

Sybil is perhaps best remembered as the first
executive secretary of the Los Angeles Central
office of A.A., a position she held for twelve
years. This was a turbulent time for A.A., with
much disunity and controversy within the groups
that led to the Twelve Traditions. Sybil
remembered that the groups regarded them
either with opposition or indifference and
the Central Office couldn't sell many copies
of the Traditions pamphlet.

Understandably, since Sybil began doing Twelfth
Step work immediately, she took a dim view of
the rigidity that crept into the requirements.
Some areas required six months or even a year
of sobriety before one was allowed to call on
new prospects. She advised "If you don't get
prospects from the Central Office, look around
the meeting rooms. There is always the forgotten
man or woman, nervous and scared, who would
love to have you come up and shake hands. Just
feel what the new person is feeling. It kept
me sober, it kept my brother Tex sober, and
it will keep you sober when all other measures
fail."

Her fifth and enduring marriage was to another
A.A. member, Bob C. He has been described a
"a high-spirited, warm, and loving man,
fourteen years her junior in age and twenty-two
years her junior in sobriety."

"Bob and I are very happy," Sybil declared.
"This has been the best years of my life."
They were both enthusiastic meeting-goers and
enjoyed an incredibly wide circle of A.A.
friends.

Sybil was honored at the International A.A.
Convention in Montreal in 1985. She was then
the longest-sober living woman in A.A. When
she was introduced to the 50,000 attendees
from fifty-three countries, she told the
colorful story of A.A.'s beginning in Los
Angeles, in which she had played such a vital
role. When she finished her talk, the audience
rose to its feet as one and gave her a standing
ovation which continued so long that some
thought it would never stop.

Sybil died in 1988.

[From Harry V., Los Angeles Archivist, Sybil
died in late April 1988, and the A.A.
Memorial Service for Sybil was held June 5th,
1988. Her Memorial service kept getting
postponed due to A.A. conference dates already
on the schedule. It was a two hour plus long
A.A. Memorial.]

Sources:

"Women Pioneers in 12 Step Recovery," by

Charlotte Hunter, Billye Jones, Joan Zieger.
"Gratefull to Have Been There," by Nell Wing.

Various tapes of Sybil's talks.

0 -1 0 0
4832 Charlie C
WorldCat.org, a research aid... WorldCat.org, a research aid... 1/29/2008 9:34:00 PM

Hi, I'm a reference librarian, and it
occured to me that maybe some of you AA
History researchers might find

http://WorldCat.org

of interest. This is the public, free
version of a longstanding library resource,
also called WorldCat. Basically WorldCat is a
massive (really massive, as in millions of
items) collection of library catalog records
from libraries across the U.S. and some other
locations.

So what does that do for you? Let's say
you want to read more about someone like Emmet
Fox, or a movement like the Oxford groups. You
look in your local library system catalog and
maybe don't find much. What to do? Is that all
there is?

Maybe, but maybe not. Try WorldCat.org.
It will give you an idea of what is really "out
there" in libraries. It will also, once you
have a list of results, help you to see which
libraries in your region have the item.

Please note that not all libraries are
open to one and all to come check books out.
It is best to contact a library first before
you go there. WorldCat helpfully provides
contact info and web site links to its member
libraries, which is pretty much everyone.

Or, you can ask your local library to get
the book for you through "inter-library loan."
This handy system enables a library in one
place to search for and have sent to it books
from other libraries in the, yes, the WorldCat
system.

Not all items you may see in WorldCat will
necessarily be available - some may be rare and
the holding library won't send it, or out of
state and your local library won't get items
from out of state.... Local policies vary, and
some public libraries need to charge at least
a token fee to recoup some of their costs,
although it usually is a mere token, and some
libraries do not charge at all.

Have fun and do support your local library!


Charlie C.
IM, Yahoo = route20guy

"So settle down and quit your traveling ways.,
'cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days...".
(Kitty Wells, Make Up Your Mind)

0 -1 0 0
4833 CloydG
Who can change the text of the BB and how? Who can change the text of the BB and how? 1/28/2008 1:24:00 PM

I've heard that GSO provides a board of
alcoholic and non alcoholic trustees that
are entrusted to preserve the original text
"forever" as it was originally written.
Is that true? If not, what would it take to
change it? I'm not interested in a debate,
only historical guidelines that the founders
provided for the fellowship.

Clyde G.
01/03/95

0 -1 0 0
4834 chesbayman56
Significant February Dates in A.A. History Significant February Dates in A.A. History 1/31/2008 3:26:00 PM

Feb 1908 - Bill made boomerang.
Feb 1916 - hazing incident Norwich University, Bill & sophomore class
suspended
Feb 1938 - Rockefeller gives $5,000 to AA. - Saves AA from
professionalization.
Feb 1939 - Dr Harry Tiebout, 1st Psychiatrist to endorse AA and use
in his practice.
Feb 1939 - Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ suggests swapping "you musts"
for "we ought" in the Big Book.
Feb 1940 - 1st AA clubhouse opens at 334-1/2 West 24th Street, NYC.
Feb 1951 - Fortune magazine article about AA. New York reprints in
pamphlet form for many years.
Feb 1963 - Harpers carries article critical of AA.
Feb 1981 - 1st issue of "Markings" AA Archives Newsletter is
published.
Feb 1 or 2, 1942 - Ruth Hock, AA's 1st paid secretary, resigns to get
married.
Feb 8, 1940 - Rockefeller dinner.
Feb 8, 1940 - Houston Press ran first of 6 anonymous articles on AA
by Larry J.
Feb 9, 2002 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr Bob's daughter died.
Feb 11, 1937 - First New Jersey meeting was held at the home of Hank
P ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition). Some sources report this
as happening Feb 13, 1937
Feb 11, 1938 - Clarence S. ("Home Brewmeister" 1st-3rd edition)
sobriety date.
Feb 14, 1971 - AA groups worldwide hold memorial service for Bill W.
Feb 14, 2000 - William Y., "California Bill" dies in Winston Salem,
NC.
Feb 15, 1918 - Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's adopted daughter, was
born.
Feb 15, 1941 - Baltimore Sunday Sun reported that the city's first AA
group, begun in June 1940, had grown from 3 to 40 members.
Feb 17, - Jim B contacted Charlie B, whom he had met once, some two
years before, at a New York AA meeting.
Feb 18, 1943 - During gas rationing in WWII, AA's are granted the
right to use cars for 12th step work in emergency cases.
Feb 19, 1967 - Father "John Doe" (Ralph P), 1st Catholic Priest in AA
dies.
Feb 20, 1941 - The Toledo Blade published first of three articles on
AA by Seymour Rothman.
Feb 23, 1959 - AA granted "Recording for the Blind" permission to
tape the Big Book.
Feb 28, 1940 - First organization meeting of Philadelphia AA was held
at McCready Huston's room at 2209 Delancy Street.

0 -1 0 0
4835 momaria33772
March of Times 1946 news clips about AA March of Times 1946 news clips about AA 1/31/2008 11:21:00 AM

I just received these today. I found them
delightful, the March of Time played at ALL
the American movie theaters.

This is an example of the great Public Informa-
tion that took place in the '40s.

(You may have to cut and
paste into your browser.)

These are Five AA archival newscasts from Time.

For a delightful glimpse into AA's past,
please follow the links below.

http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\
_015&flash=6


http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\
_025&flash=6


http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\
_016&flash=6


http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\
_017&flash=6


http://www.hboarchives.com/apps/searchlibrary/ctl/gotoclipdetails?key=TQ49312111\
_026&flash=6


- - - -

From the moderator:

The last one (number five) has a nice
section showing a young Marty Mann
speaking to an audience. She was able to
communicate effectively with any kind of
audience whatsoever, and get them on her
side.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
4836 Jim Hoffman
RE: Who can change the text of the BB and how? Who can change the text of the BB and how? 1/30/2008 4:27:00 PM

The annual Conference has passed Advisory
Actions meant to protect the Doctor’s Opinion,
the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob’s story from
change without the written consent of three
quarters of all registered groups.

Advisory Actions have also extended this
protection to the Twelve Traditions and the
Twelve Concepts.

This means that more than 2/3 of the
Delegates at the Conference approved those
Advisory Actions.

As the Conference Charter states Advisory
Actions have no force of law. In other words,
the Trustees have every legal right to ignore
those directives. However, we have a history
of honoring the substantially unanimous
conscience of the fellowship as expressed
by the Delegates through the Conference.

As a result the Trustees have never acted
in opposition to any Advisory Action. In
fact, they will honor actions approved by
a strong majority that does not quite reach
the 2/3 level.

- - - -

That does not mean the Big Book has not changed
over the years. There is an original manuscript
that you will frequently see at Conferences,
Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will
hear its version of “How It Works” at such an
event because it is different from the version
that was eventually published. That manuscript
was changed by revue of the fellowship that
resulted in rewrite by Bill.

- - - -

There are also changes over the years to the
originally published version. Dr. Silkworth’s
name did not appear with his letter in early
printings. The Doctor’s Opinion used to be on
Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section
and Bill’s Story is on Page 1.

Numeric references were also changed in
various printings. The one that struck me
first when I was newly reading the book was
the reference to “Here are thousands of men
and women” in the chapter, We Agnostics. I
wondered how that could be when there were
only a hundred when the book was written.
The answer was that these kinds of references
were updated over the several printings.
However, the basic ideas and word of the
basic text have not been changed.

- - - -

To see how strong the feeling against change
is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition.
When the first printing came out, there were
some editorial changes made to DR. Bob’s story.
These were strictly grammar and punctuation
changes but they elicited tremendous reaction
within the fellowship. An item was submitted
and accepted for the following year’s Confer-
ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that
the story had been changed without the written
approval of three fourths of the registered
groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted
to reverse the changes.

- - - -

So, the way you would change any of these
items, you would have to submit the change to
be considered as an Agenda item for the
following Conference. It would have to be
accepted and added to the Conference. An
individual could submit it but it might have
a better chance of acceptance if it went
through your Delegate Area and the Area and
Delegate submitted letters of support. If it
made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have
to approve sending it to the registered groups
seeking their approval. If three fourths
approved then the change would be made.

- - - -

If there are other ways to get it to the groups
for approval, I’m not aware of them. Perhaps
some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in.
In either case, you would still need the group
approval. So as you can see there is a way
but the practicality of it happening is
“remote” at best. I would say it is probably
“nil”.

Jim Hoffman

0 -1 0 0
4837 flat412acrehouse
Original AA Members Original AA Members 1/29/2008 10:11:00 PM

I read message #4543 referring to the first
100 AA members, and also looked at the list
of the first 226 Akron members at

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226b.html

I and my group wished to know if any of
these AA members (on either list) are still
alive today.

Thanking you kindly
gentle blessings
leah

0 -1 0 0
4838 Tom Hickcox
Re: March of Times 1946 news clips about AA March of Times 1946 news clips about AA 1/31/2008 8:39:00 PM

At 10:21 1/31/2008 , you wrote:

> >From the moderator:
>
>The last one (number five) has a nice
>section showing a young Marty Mann
>speaking to an audience. She was able to
>communicate effectively with any kind of
>audience whatsoever, and get them on her
>side.
>
>Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


My wife Jean and I watched these. She is a
nurse who practiced in the Metropolitan
New York City area as well as Long Island
for over 35 years.

She recognized the Freeport Hospital in
the last clip and says that was where
Dr. Thibault had a lot of his patients.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4839 Arthur S
Re: Who can change the text of the BB and how? Who can change the text of the BB and how? 1/31/2008 9:37:00 PM

Hi Jim

Your statement is not correct. You also
seem to be getting context a bit scrambled
regarding the relationship between the Board
and Conference.

A 1976 Conference advisory action expanded the
provisions of Article 3 of the Conference
Charter. It specified that any change to the
Steps, Traditions or Six Warranties of Article
12 of the Conference Charter, would require
written approval of 75% of the registered
AA Groups known to General Service Offices
around the world. This Conference advisory
action effectively makes any proposed change
to the Steps, Traditions and Warranties a
virtual impossibility (even so much as adding
or removing a comma). The 12 Concepts are not
included in this (other than for Concept 12
which is also Article 12 of the Conference
Charter - aka the six "Warrantees").

The basic text of the Big Book is pretty much
"protected" from change by the prevailing
sentiment of the members of the AA Fellowship
as a whole. Changes to the Big Book can be
accomplished by Conference advisory action.
However, I doubt that they would get very far
in reality. Several Conference advisory actions
related to the development of the 4th edition
Big Book specified that no changes were to be
made to the forewords, basic text, appendices
and "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." They were to "remain
as is." This pretty much represents the ongoing
sentiment of the AA membership that emerged
with 2nd edition Big Book (1955).

In the 4th edition, punctuation changes were
made to "Dr. Bob's Nightmare." It subsequently
was interpreted that the Trustee's Literature
Committee was non-responsive to several
Conference's advisory actions that the story
"remain as is." My own take on it is that it
was likely an honest mistake because there were
so many Conference advisory actions passed on
the matter.

In two of the advisory actions, the Conference
authorized the literature committee to make
punctuation changes if they were done to
correct errors. It could very easily be
interpreted to include all the "remain as is"
sections. On the other hand, it can very
easily be interpreted that "remain as is"
means "remain as is."

The 2003 Conference allowed the changes to
stand. The 2004 Conference passed an advisory
action to restore the original punctuation.

The Service Manual and Twelve Concepts for
World Service provide the guidelines for the
context of the relationship between the Board
and the Conference.

Article 4 of the Current Conference Charter
reads:

4. Conference Relation to the General Service
Board and its Corporate Services: The Conf-
erence will replace the founders of Alcoholics
Anonymous, who formerly functioned as guides
and advisers to the General Service Board
and its related service corporations. The
Conference will be expected to afford a
reliable cross section of A.A. opinion for
this purpose.

A quorum shall consist of two-thirds of all
the Conference members registered.

It will be understood, as a matter of tradi-
tion, that a two-thirds vote of Conference
members voting shall be considered binding
upon the General Service Board and its related
corporate services, provided the total vote
constitutes at least a Conference quorum. But
no such vote ought to impair the legal rights
of the General Service Board and the service
corporations to conduct routine business and
make ordinary contracts relating thereto.

It will be further understood, regardless of
the legal prerogatives of the General Service
Board, as a matter of tradition, that a
three-quarters vote of all Conference members
may bring about a reorganization of the
General Service Board and the directors and
staff members of its corporate services, if or
when such reorganization is deemed essential.

Under such a proceeding, the Conference may
request resignations, may nominate new
trustees, and may make all other necessary
arrangements regardless of the legal preroga-
tives of the General Service Board.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hoffman
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 3:27 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Who can change the text of the BB and how?

The annual Conference has passed Advisory
Actions meant to protect the Doctor's Opinion,
the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob's story from
change without the written consent of three
quarters of all registered groups.

Advisory Actions have also extended this
protection to the Twelve Traditions and the
Twelve Concepts.

This means that more than 2/3 of the
Delegates at the Conference approved those
Advisory Actions.

As the Conference Charter states Advisory
Actions have no force of law. In other words,
the Trustees have every legal right to ignore
those directives. However, we have a history
of honoring the substantially unanimous
conscience of the fellowship as expressed
by the Delegates through the Conference.

As a result the Trustees have never acted
in opposition to any Advisory Action. In
fact, they will honor actions approved by
a strong majority that does not quite reach
the 2/3 level.

- - - -

That does not mean the Big Book has not changed
over the years. There is an original manuscript
that you will frequently see at Conferences,
Dinners and Conventions. Many times you will
hear its version of "How It Works" at such an
event because it is different from the version
that was eventually published. That manuscript
was changed by revue of the fellowship that
resulted in rewrite by Bill.

- - - -

There are also changes over the years to the
originally published version. Dr. Silkworth's
name did not appear with his letter in early
printings. The Doctor's Opinion used to be on
Page 1 and now it is a roman numeral section
and Bill's Story is on Page 1.

Numeric references were also changed in
various printings. The one that struck me
first when I was newly reading the book was
the reference to "Here are thousands of men
and women" in the chapter, We Agnostics. I
wondered how that could be when there were
only a hundred when the book was written.
The answer was that these kinds of references
were updated over the several printings.
However, the basic ideas and word of the
basic text have not been changed.

- - - -

To see how strong the feeling against change
is we only have to look at the Fourth Edition.
When the first printing came out, there were
some editorial changes made to DR. Bob's story.
These were strictly grammar and punctuation
changes but they elicited tremendous reaction
within the fellowship. An item was submitted
and accepted for the following year's Confer-
ence Agenda. One basis of the item is that
the story had been changed without the written
approval of three fourths of the registered
groups. At the Conference, the Delegates voted
to reverse the changes.

- - - -

So, the way you would change any of these
items, you would have to submit the change to
be considered as an Agenda item for the
following Conference. It would have to be
accepted and added to the Conference. An
individual could submit it but it might have
a better chance of acceptance if it went
through your Delegate Area and the Area and
Delegate submitted letters of support. If it
made the Agenda, the Delegates would then have
to approve sending it to the registered groups
seeking their approval. If three fourths
approved then the change would be made.

- - - -

If there are other ways to get it to the groups
for approval, I'm not aware of them. Perhaps
some past Delegates or Trustees can weigh in.
In either case, you would still need the group
approval. So as you can see there is a way
but the practicality of it happening is
"remote" at best. I would say it is probably
"nil".

Jim Hoffman

0 -1 0 0
4840 Robyn Mitchell
Big Book font and Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile Big Book font and Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile 1/31/2008 9:11:00 PM

Does anybody know what fonts have been used
in the various editions of the Big Book and
the Twelve and Twelve? The fonts on the cover
of the 12x12 are different from the actual
text.

Secondly, I once saw a picture of Dr. Bob in
the Buick he bought in the year or so before
he died, I didn't mark the site, does anyone
know where I might find the image again?

Thanks muchly,
Robyn

0 -1 0 0
4841 Cindy Miller
Re: Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile Dr. Bob''s Buick automobile 1/31/2008 10:33:00 PM

Photo of Dr. Bob with his Buick in "Dr. Bob
and The Good Oldtimers," page 335.

Best,
Cindy Miller

- - - -

Also from:

"Bruce C." <brucecl2002@yahoo.com>
(brucecl2002 at yahoo.com)

"Jay Pees" <racewayjay@atlanticbb.net>
(racewayjay at atlanticbb.net)

"tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com>
(tomper99 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4842 Sober186@aol.com
Basic Text Basic Text 1/31/2008 4:50:00 PM

To me, it appears as if Bill W. was thinking
of the Book Alcoholics Anonymous as a text
book even before it was completely written.

In the A.A. Service Manual, Bill discusses
his creation of the book. He states that at
one point consideration was given to getting
an advance from Harpers. At this point there
were only two chapters completed.

On page S4 of the A.A. Service Manual, Bill
writes:

"There was another problem too, and a serious
one. If our A. A. book became the basic text
for Alcoholics Anonymous, its ownership would
be in other hands. It was evident that our
society ought to own and publish its own
literature."

Jim L.

0 -1 0 0
4843 Debi Ubernosky
Re: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/2/2008 5:53:00 PM

Howdy AA History Lovers,

I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's
supposed hometown of Simians, Texas.

(I'm a Texan!)

I've never heard of this town, and a Google
search does not return anything about it, nor
is there any reference to it on the State of
Texas website or the Texas Historical Society
website.

Here's another site I checked:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/tx/cities.htm.

So I'm wondering if there is something that
documents where Sybil was from, or whether
this is a misspelling, or something else that
could clear this up.

Thanks,

Debi

- - - -

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aasybilc.html

Sybil C.
The First Woman in A.A. West of the Mississippi
by Nancy O.

Sybil C. was the first woman to enter A.A.
west of the Mississippi. Her date of sobriety
was March 23, 1941 ....

She was born Sybil Doris Adams on May 20, 1908,
in the small oil town of Simians, Texas. Her
parents were poor but hardworking and she had
a brother Herman, ten years her senior. Herman
was called "Tex" ....

0 -1 0 0
4844 terry walton
Who was Betty Love? Who was Betty Love? 2/3/2008 3:00:00 AM

In "The Soul of Sponsorship" by Robert
Fitzgerald, S.J., page 56, in a letter
written by Bill Wilson to Father Ed,
he wrote:

"We'd very much like your criticisms of the
material enclosed. Do we run across the grain
of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the
writing style and is the structural situation
depicted in conformity with your observations
of AA?"

Bill also mentioned he had good help from some
other writers: Tom Powers, Betty Love and Jack
Alexander.

My question is, who was Betty Love?

I have found zero hits on the name Betty Love
on this history site.

Thank you,

Terry

P.S. On the same page Bill wrote this for a
motive behind the writing of the 12x12. He
used the word "bait."

Letter from Bill W to Father Ed (page 56
same book):

"If we are able to do a fair job on the steps,
that will be helpful and, published along with
the traditions, they may act as a bait for
reading the latter. However we'll see."

0 -1 0 0
4845 Jay Lawyer
Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 2/3/2008 6:21:00 PM

I just received this. Thought it was inter-
esting. This is a good example of why the
12 Traditions were necessary.

- - - -

Patti <paks68@optonline.net>
(paks68 at optonline.net) wrote:

Here is the story about Irma Livoni that some
of you asked about. Each year around this time
I try to tell this true story about what
happened not just on Dec 7th 1941 (Pearl
Harbor Day) but what happened to one of the
few women who was in AA at that time, and about
a letter she received in the mail, on Monday,
December 8th, which virtually kicked her out
of AA. This is a long email, so read it
when/if you have the time.

In Dec of 1984, I had been sober for 2-1/2
years, and working with my sponsors Bob and
Sybil Corwin since Jan of 84. Sybil had
gotten sober in March of 1941, so at the time
she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home
from a meeting and she asked me the date
(to her it was just Sunday). I told her it
was Dec 8th, and that yesterday (Dec 7th) was
the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day.

She said "Matt, have I ever told you about
Irma Livoni?"

"Nope, who is she?"

She said, "Well, when we get back to the
house, come in for coffee and I’ll tell you
a story about AA history and some of the
reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the
way Matt, did you know that the literature
specifically protects 'queers, plain crackpots,
and fallen women,' and since you and I are at
least two out of those three, we should be
especially grateful for tradition 3? I'll
show you it when we get home."

I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense
of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer,
back before she got sober, you know one of
those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was
divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well
as an alcoholic back then, so the term "fallen
woman" was something that hit close to home.

She had told me that it was very different
back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be
an alcoholic. Sybil said It was a time when
women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable
women" were not usually found in a bar, or
at "whoopie parties."

Our Thursday night step study had voted to
not cover the traditions after we got to
step 12, so I figured they must not be very
important and thought I’d probably be bored
with the conversation, but she got my attention
telling me that "queers, crackpots and fallen
women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in
for coffee.

Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I
had been alive. I didn't argue with her very
much.

Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She
said, I want you to find the traditions in
there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st
edition Big Book. Thicker than mine.

I said, "Is this why they call it the Big
Book?"

She said, "exactly, Bill had it printed on
big paper, with big margins around the type,
so that people would think they were really
getting something for their money."

I looked in the back of the book, where I
thought the traditions were, but couldn't
find them. "I can’t find them, Sybil."

"Exactly. That's because we didn't have any
traditions back in 1941 when I came in. And
Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying
itself, which is why we have traditions now."
Then she had me find them in my 3rd edition
and in my 12 & 12. I didn't read it all,
just the caption heading, and then she started
telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI.

Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also
became a member in 1941, just after Sybil.
Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me
that many people's bottoms were very low then,
no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing).
Sybil said it was different then for a woman
to be an alcoholic. That most of them had
burned all their bridges with their families,
and were looked down upon, even more so than
male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA
help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get
cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first
job in sobriety, and watched AA help Irma get
her first apartment in sobriety.

Then she said that on Dec 5th, 1941 a self-
appointed group of the members signed a letter
to Irma & mailed it 2 days before Pearl Harbor,
on that Friday, Dec 5th. Here is a copy of
the letter:

-------------------------

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
Post Office Box 607
Hollywood Station
Hollywood, California

December Fifth 1941

Irma Livoni
939 S. Gramercy Place
Los Angeles, California

Dear Mrs. Livoni:

At a meeting of the Executive Committee of the
Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous,
held Dec. 4th, 1941, it was decided that your
attendance at group meetings was no longer
desired until certain explanations and plans
for the future were made to the satisfaction
of this committee. This action has been taken
for reasons which should be most apparent to
yourself. It was decided that, should you so
desire, you may appear before members of this
committee and state your attitude. This oppor-
tunity will be afforded you between now and
December 15th, 1941. You may communicate with
us at the above address by that date.

In case you do not wish to appear, we shall
consider the matter closed and that your
membership is terminated.

Alcoholics Anonymous, Los Angeles Group
Mortimer, Frank, Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al

-------------------------

I was stunned. "How could they do this,
Sybil?"

"Because we didn't have any guidelines,
any traditions to protect us from good
intentions. AA was very new, and people
did all sorts of things, thinking they were
protecting the fellowship."

Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine
my being in the following setting. Sybil
explained that Dec 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor
Day (a Sunday). She said that that Sunday
night everyone in LA was afraid that Los
Angeles would also be attacked and bombed.
There was a citywide blackout, people were so
terrified. She said that on Monday Dec 8th,
President Rosevelt gave the speech that
talked about "the date that will live in
infamy" and that we were now at war with
Japan and Germany.

She said, that was the day that Irma
received her letter. There was only one
meeting in the entire state of California
when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December
there may have been two or three, but Irma
had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn
to. No other Group in California that she
could ask for help.

Sybil said, "Imagine only one or two meetings
in your entire state, and being shunned by
your family, and by society, and by the
only group of people who were on your side,
your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door
on you and sending you such a letter, Matt."

I shivered at the thought of it. It was
Christmas time, the stores were decorated
and now poor Irma was all alone.

I thought about how it was in 1984 with
2000 meetings a week to choose from in
Southern California. and then I imagined
having no other help for a hopeless
alcoholic.

Sybil told me that Irma never came back to
another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism.
She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I
cannot tell you that this is the reason that
the following is a part of the 3rd Tradition,
but it certainly seems to apply.

From Tradition 3, page 141:

-------------------------

... that we would neither punish nor deprive
any AA of membership, that we must never
compel anyone to pay anything, believe
anything, or conform to anything? The answer,
now seen in Tradition Three, was simplicity
itself. At last experience taught us that to
take away any alcoholic's full chance was
sometimes to pronounce his death sentence,
and often to condem him to endless misery.
Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner
of his own sick brother?"

-------------------------

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I remember looking at those words again and
again, and they seemed to get larger and
larger.

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I hadn't really noticed EXECUTIONER when I
had read it the first time at my 12 & 12
study group. Again I felt so bad for this
poor lady. Wow, those words really had a
different meaning than when I had read the
traditions before. So here it is, 23 years
later, and each December 7th & 8th, I always
think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am,
that we have traditions now. I also think of
how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so
lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor.

Years later I realized how everything she ever
taught me was like gold. But in 1984 I had no
idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was
to have her as my sponsor. She was like a
piece of living history, but I really didn't
realize how valuable that was in explaining
WHY we do some of the things we do (like the
story she told me about how they never said
"Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is
Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then).

Besides being one of the first women in AA,
Sybil was the first woman west of the Nissis-
sippi. She also became the head of LA's
central office for 12 years, and she became
close friends with Bill and Lois. She and
Bob even used to go on vacation with them.
She used to tell me all sorts of stories
about Bill Wilson and things he said to her.

He was very interested in how AA would work
for women, as there were very few women
worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Mann
came in before Sybil did, but very few
stayed sober.

I learned that night that no one can get kicked
out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk
that he needs to settle down or we might have
to ask him to step outside for that day, but
we don't vote to kick anyone out forever. And
we don't shun people because our guidelines,
our traditions tell us that no one has to
believe in anything (they don't have to be
like me) and they don't have to conform to
anything(they don't have to dress a certain
way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything).
Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome
at any AA meeting.

So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel
free to pass this along to anyone you know
who might be interested in knowing a bit about
how and why the traditions got started. I
think it sort of puts a face on tradition 3:
the face of a woman I never knew, who got
kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died.

Thank God for Tradition 3, and thank God for
all of you. I truly appreciate and cherish
all the people in this group.

Best AA love to you all.


"God hasn't promised us tomorrow,
but he has promised us eternity."

0 -1 0 0
4846 Chris Budnick
RE: Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 2/4/2008 7:30:00 PM

This is wonderful. I had seen this letter
while touring the Akron Intergroup but couldn't
remember the woman's name or the exact wording
of the letter. I remember thinking how
foreign of a concept that someone could be
kicked out of AA. It helped put into context
my short years of recovery with what it was
like for members such as Irma before there
were the Traditions.

(1) Does anyone have information on why they
wrote: "This action has been taken for reasons
which should be most apparent to yourself."

(2) Does anyone know more specifics about
Irma - when she died etc.

(3) Also, is there any information about the
members who signed the letter (Mortimer, Frank,
Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al)?

(4) I wonder if they remained members of
Alcoholics Anonymous and if their thoughts
about how they handled this situation changed
over the years?

Chris B.

Raleigh, NC

0 -1 0 0
4847 tomper87
Re: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/4/2008 4:35:00 PM

"Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@...> wrote:

> Howdy AA History Lovers,
>
> I'm curious about the reference to Sybil C's
> supposed hometown of Simians, Texas.

Hopefully this will not confuse the issue but
here is a possible explanation from a flyer of
one of Sybil's many AA talks. Her birth town
is here referred to as Semens, Texas. Also
very difficult to find this town in Texas.
My conclusion is that they are referring to
Simmons, Texas. The info was probably taken
from her talk and they did not get the spelling
correct. Hope this is helpful.

-Tom P.

- - - -

S Y B I L C O R W I N

Anniversary Meeting

Waterloo, Iowa

April 9, 1993

"A Timeless Staple on the AA Trail"

75 years Young at the time of this Talk!

Sybil was the first woman west of the Missis-
sippi River to get sober in AA. She mentions
that Marty Mann shared that honor on the East
Coast.

Her Sobriety Date is March 23, 1941. She had
been married five times. She introduces
herself at the beginning of her talk as Sybil
Doris Adams Stratton Hart Maxwell Willis
Corwin. She had just celebrated 42 years of
Sobriety at the time this talk took place.

Born in a lil' town of Semens Texas that had
a wooden school house. She tells of lovin'
that School House. Parents were religious and
thought of whiskey as Evil. Momma was nervous
and frightened and it rubbed off on her. A
scared child, she had no one to play with.
Started reading at four and learned by reading
off of a Biscuit Box on the kitchen table.

The family moved to Los Angeles and at 14 or
so she wanted to know what her Papa was talking
about when he spoke of whiskey so she drank a
whole bottle offered to her by her classmates.
Woke up in shame and remorse in her Momma's
bed. A dismal attempt to stop drinking proved
futile.

"I didn't want to behave like that"

Became defiant and Belligerent and she was
derailed at every turn.

First marriage to a Sailor produced one child.
Her only child.

Drinking out of control and more marriages
she at the end of her rope reads the article
in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1941.

"A women drunk was beneath everything you can
think about"

Writing a letter to AA for help; she received
a return letter from Ruth Hock, AA's first
secretary. Ruth told her about a little group
of men meeting in Los Angeles.

This group was given a Red Big Book by Kay
Miller who migrated to LA from NY. Her husband
was in AA. She was not an Alcoholic but
started many meetings.

You will hear how Sybil recruited new Alcoholic
Women to come into the Program and she names
many of the old timers, including Cliff Walker
who became her Sponsor.

A unique sharing of the Steps comes at the
close of this great and history filled talk.

Sybil passed on April 29, 1998

0 -1 0 0
4848 Jim M
Re: Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 Irma Livoni -- first woman kicked out of AA -- 1941 2/4/2008 10:50:00 PM

Some time back (a few years) I was contacted
by an individual who I believe said was in the
posession of the original letter and thought
I would be interested in it.

If this is the case and is true the actual
date of the letter was December 6th, 1941.
You can view it here:

http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/irmal1941.html

Jim

0 -1 0 0
4849 t
Re: Irma Livoni & Sybil C threads Irma Livoni & Sybil C threads 2/4/2008 11:37:00 PM

some Grapevine info might be worth noting:

Grapevine article by Sybil C., February 1992,
"Learning to Fly"
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1539

"What We Were Like, Fragments of AA History
(Los Angeles)" - Grapevine, June 1990 -
from a Series on AA history
http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-Fragments-of-AA-History-Jun-19\
90.pdf


"What We Were Like, The North Hollywood Group" -
Grapevine, May 1997 - Linda H., North Hollywood,
California
http://silkworth.net/pdfhistory/What-We-Were-Like-The-North-Hollywood-Group-May-\
1997.pdf


0 -1 0 0
4850 tomper87
Re: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/5/2008 10:42:00 AM

After reading my own post I realized the
Waterloo Poster of Sybil's talk had at least
one error. She was 85 years young at the
time of this particular talk in 1993. OOPS!

-Tom P.

0 -1 0 0
4851 charles Knapp
Re: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/5/2008 1:10:00 AM

Hello,

As a novice genealogist I checked the US
Census and found that in 1910 Sybil’s family
was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the
family was living in Wichita Texas.

Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New
Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the
1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a
good chance she was born in New Mexico and
not in Texas. I Googled and couldn’t find a
Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure
what city she was actually born in.

I also discovered Sybil’s brother Tex's
full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have
2 different birth dates for him. On his
WWI draft registration it stated his birthday
as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate
states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He
died October 11, 1952.

Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde
Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903
and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe
he ever needed AA.)

I also have the exact date that Sybil died.
According the Social Security Death Index she
died April 29, 1998, not 1988.

I know this to be the correct year because I
went to her memorial service. I got sober in
1989 so it could not have been 1988.

Hope this helps,

Charles from California

0 -1 0 0
4852 Bill Lash
AA Movie Preview AA Movie Preview 2/4/2008 10:39:00 PM

AA Movie PreviewCopy & paste this web address:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5aSR_8u1pE


- - - -

From the moderator: there is a cameo of
Ernie Kurtz about halfway through (among
other worthies who appear in this clip).

Glenn C.

0 -1 0 0
4853 Glenn Chesnut
Colliers Wood Colliers Wood 2/6/2008 3:15:00 PM

Every once in a while you come across
something that has been put together so
well, that you wish that people in other
parts of the world could just look at it,
to see if they could get some good
suggestions for doing things where they
live.

The Colliers Wood Design for Living AA Group
in London has put together a website

http://www.designforlivingaagroup.co.uk/

that struck me that way. It's put together
beautifully, it's got nice material on
sponsorship, the AA group, and AA literature,
and keeps things firmly grounded in AA's
historic heritage.

Glenn C.
Tuesday night group
Osceola, Indiana, USA

0 -1 0 0
4854 Glenn Chesnut
AA in the Arabian peninsula AA in the Arabian peninsula 2/6/2008 5:48:00 PM

An article sent to us by "John Blair"
<jblair@wmis.net> (jblair at wmis.net)

Long due recognition: UAE's AA hero

by Derek Baldwin

(December 13, 2007)

http://www.xpress4me.com/news/uae/abudhabi/20004714.html

The founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) in
the UAE [United Arab Emirates] has been
nationally feted for 30 years for helping
addicts find their lives again.

In his first public appearance, Tom L.,
64, was presented with an award this
week by the Emirate of Abu Dhabi National
Rehabilitation Centre.

After years of selfless service, it is the
only time that Tom has agreed to be
photographed and identified.

In contrast to a time when a small group met
quietly to respect Muslim views about alcohol,
the centre has recognised Tom and AA for
"continuous outstanding contribution towards
recovery".

The well-attended awards ceremony was a bit
overwhelming for a man who once struggled
heavily with the bottle to the point that he
lost his job, his family and friends in the
late 1960s in India.

"It came to a point where I was living in the
streets in Mumbai. I was 26 and didn’t have
any hope," he said in an interview with
XPRESS. "Then one day I had a spiritual
awakening."

On July 20, 1970, Tom attended an AA meeting
and his life was transformed forever thanks
to the 12-Step Programme and a new relation-
ship with his "higher power".

In 1975, he moved to Abu Dhabi as a labourer
and two years later, he founded the very
first AA meeting in a small room in Deira.

"There was a need for this meeting for myself
and for others as well," he said, seated in
his spacious villa.

0 -1 0 0
4855 grault
Member introduction and group response Member introduction and group response 2/8/2008 7:30:00 AM

Does anyone know the origins of the custom of
members sharing at meetings to introduce
themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic" or
the (much later, I believe) practice of the
group's response: "Hi, xxx"?

0 -1 0 0
4856 LouPetrosino
Preserving archival materials Preserving archival materials 2/9/2008 12:13:00 PM

I have a question about preserving magazines,
printed material and letters. I have been
using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags;
how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there
a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin
important?

Using the large polyethylene bags that I do
have, it's a very tight fit for our older
Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a
problem like this? Anyone have a good source
for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8
x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are
supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening
Post but seem a tad small.

I have also been using acid-free board to
help stiffen the magazines, is that a good
practice?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Lou

0 -1 0 0
4857 Peter Tippett
Tom Powers and Betty Love Tom Powers and Betty Love 2/6/2008 6:45:00 PM

Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom
Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of
the 12x12, please?

Thanks,
Pete Tippett

0 -1 0 0
4858 erb2b
Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/6/2008 10:48:00 PM

HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter.
I have been sending her copies of the informa-
tion in here about her mother. Shes has
replied so far with this:

My mother was born in Simmons not Simions
according to her (Sybil). And yes, she passed
away April 29, 1998.

I will send futher information thru here
to her if you have questions you may want
answered.

Trudging in Peace!!! Corey F.
<erb2b@yahoo.com> (erb2b at yahoo.com)

- - - -

Charles Knapp <cdknapp@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> As a novice genealogist I checked the US
> Census and found that in 1910 Sybil's family
> was living in Melrose, New Mexico and 1920 the
> family was living in Wichita Texas.
>
> Both censuses stated Sybil was born in New
> Mexico. Since Sybil was born in 1908 and the
> 1910 census was taken in Melrose NM it is a
> good chance she was born in New Mexico and
> not in Texas. I Googled and couldn't find a
> Simians, New Mexico either. So not sure
> what city she was actually born in.
>
> I also discovered Sybil's brother Tex's
> full name was Herman Lafayette Adams. I have
> 2 different birth dates for him. On his
> WWI draft registration it stated his birthday
> as July 17, 1898, but his death certificate
> states his birthday as October 19, 1898. He
> died October 11, 1952.
>
> Sybil also had another older brother, Clyde
> Ernest Adams. He was born August 21, 1903
> and died February 14, 1994. (Do not believe
> he ever needed AA.)
>
> I also have the exact date that Sybil died.
> According the Social Security Death Index she
> died April 29, 1998, not 1988.
>
> I know this to be the correct year because I
> went to her memorial service. I got sober in
> 1989 so it could not have been 1988.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Charles from California

0 -1 0 0
4859 arcchi88
Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat 2/7/2008 10:13:00 AM

I was wondering if anyone has any history on
a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's
College in Rensselaer, Indiana.

There have got to be some people who have
attended in years past who can tell a story
or two!!!

If you have ever attended this retreat and
have a story to tell, big or small, please
pass it on!

Thanks!

Tom C.

- - - -

From the moderator, Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana):

My first reaction was to assume that you
knew how the first AA retreats were held
there, but then I realized that you might not.
They were an important part of early AA
history however.

http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html

RALPH PFAU wrote the Golden Books under the
pen name of Father John Doe, to preserve his
anonymity. The twelfth step says "(a) Having
had a spiritual awakening as the result of
these steps, we tried (b) to carry this
message to alcoholics, and (c) to practice
these principles in all our affairs." The
Golden Books tell us how to do the last part,
that is, how to bring the principles of the
program to bear on our daily lives in the
world, how to make decisions in the real
world, and how to keep our minds and spirits
on an even keel amidst the storms and stresses
of everyday life.

Ralph Pfau was a priest in Indianapolis,
Indiana, the first Roman Catholic priest to
get sober in the A.A. program. On November 10,
1943, he telephoned Doherty Sheerin, who had
started the first A.A. group in that city on
October 28, 1940. Dohr became his sponsor,
and Ralph never drank again.

In June 1947, Ralph conducted a weekend
spiritual retreat for A.A. members (70% of
them Protestants) at St. Joseph’s College at
Rensselaer, Indiana, and gave the attendees
(as a souvenir) a little pamphlet with a
cover made of gold foil, called the "Spiritual
Side," containing the short talks he had given
to start up the various group discussion
sessions. Afterwards, people began asking for
extra copies to give to their A.A. friends.

Between then and 1964, Ralph put together
fourteen of these little "Golden Books," based
on his talks at A.A. spiritual retreats which
he was now giving all over the U.S. and Canada.

- - - -

http://hindsfoot.org/pflou3.html

When Ralph had been sober for a year and a
half or so, he began to feel frustrated about
one thing. When he went out on twelve step
calls, drunks would not accept anything he
told them, because he was a priest, and they
thought he was just preaching the old moral
condemnation line at them. He talked about it
with Dohr several times, and Dohr told Ralph
that he knew he had special things to give to
the program, and the only problem was to
discover what it was that God needed him to
do. When the solution finally came, Ralph
said, “the answer was so obvious that I felt
foolish because I hadn’t thought of it sooner.”
It was a regular practice in the Catholic
church to have spiritual retreats, where a
retreat director gave talks on Catholic belief
and practice, interspersed with periods when
people could ask questions, and periods for
group discussion sessions, and some free
periods also just for rest and quiet medita-
tion. Catholics had always found that they
could derive great spiritual benefits from
these retreats.

Ralph decided to run a trial experiment by
trying just a simple one-day retreat. He held
it at the Little Sisters of the Poor, starting
after church on Sunday, and running through
till dinner-time in the evening. This was
probably somewhere in the latter part of 1945.
It was a totally novel experience for him.
There was no preaching on Catholic dogma,
because everything was centered purely on A.A.
principles and beliefs. But more importantly,
only twenty of the sixty-seven men who came
were Catholics -- the other 70% all came from
Protestant backgrounds.

The experiment was so successful, that Ralph
decided to try a full weekend retreat, so in
early April of 1946 he wrote to St. Joseph’s
College at Rensselaer, Indiana, and they
finally agreed to let him use their buildings
during their summer vacation, in June of 1946.
This was the first weekend-long spiritual
retreat ever held in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Rensselaer was up in the northwestern corner
of Indiana, an area of the state with which
Ralph was not nearly so familiar. This
weekend affair was again a rousing success.

His theme for this retreat was “The Spiritual
Side of Alcoholics Anonymous,” which went over
so well that he gave the same talk at all the
retreats he conducted over the next year, and
finally put it out on a recording. This was
the first of what was eventually a set of
thirty phonograph records which took his
voice to A.A. people all over the United
States. And this was also where the Golden
Books began.

0 -1 0 0
4860 shakey1aa
L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? 2/8/2008 1:37:00 PM

In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see
Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and
a phone number of UN-2436.

I also have a listing at the address for a
person named L J Knisely.

Was this person a relative of the Smith's or
perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder?
Does any one have any knowledge of this person?

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008

0 -1 0 0
4861 jm48301
Father Martin''s health? Father Martin''s health? 2/9/2008 4:53:00 PM

On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that
Father Martin had suffered a heart attack.

Has he recovered? My question relates to an
extraordinary figure in "AA History."

Thank you.

0 -1 0 0
4862 jlobdell54
Lavelle or Lovell J. K., 855 Ardmore Lavelle or Lovell J. K., 855 Ardmore 2/9/2008 8:31:00 PM

The L. J. K. whom Shakey found at 855 Ardmore
in 1950 is the Lavelle K. (of Lavelle and
Emma K.) who lived there and took care of
Dr. Bob.

The two signatures I have seen of Lovell show
his name spelled that way (he was btw born in
1890 and in 1942 was living in Kent OH), but
in DR BOB AND THE GOOD OLD TIMERS (pp. 17,
272, 289, 317-318, 329-330, 333, 339-343)
it is spelled Lavelle. His middle name was
Joyce.

0 -1 0 0
4863 Mel Barger
Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love Tom Powers and Betty Love 2/9/2008 5:19:00 PM

Hi Pete,

I don't know anything about Betty Love, but
Tom Powers told me in a telephone interview
that he helped Bill with the 12 & 12, though
apparently without making major changes in
Bill's writing style (which Powers called
Elizabethan).

Jack Alexander, author of the breakthrough
Saturday Evening Post story about AA, also
put some finishing touches on the book,
according to Bill.

In my own opinion, the book reflects the same
style we see in Bill's other writings, so I
feel it's largely his. I think Powers and
others probably made only minor corrections
and changes.

Mel Barger

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Tippett
To: AA History Buffs
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 6:45 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Tom Powers and Betty Love


Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom
Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of
the 12x12, please?

Thanks,
Pete Tippett

0 -1 0 0
4864 oldsmokef
Re: Father Martin''s health? Father Martin''s health? 2/10/2008 6:00:00 PM

There is a place on this website where people
can click for an update on Father Joseph C.
Martin's health condition:

http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/index.htm

http://www.fathermartinsashley.com/interior.php?section=News&subsection=FatherMa\
rtinUpdate


- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"jm48301" <jm48301@...> wrote:
>
> On Jan. 16,it was reported (Message 4799) that
> Father Martin had suffered a heart attack.
>
> Has he recovered? My question relates to an
> extraordinary figure in "AA History."
>
> Thank you.
>

0 -1 0 0
4865 robin_foote
AA in Vladivostok AA in Vladivostok 2/10/2008 7:17:00 AM

Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA

VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com
The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics
of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th
anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok"
writes.

The celebration of the anniversary and intro-
ducing the society will be held on Saturday at
noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum.

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members
are trained on the program "12 steps."

Every person can apply with his problem to
this association and get a free advice. In
these years thousands of Primorye residents
have found support. Everyone who came with
his own trouble could see that he is not lone
in this world. The trainings are held not only
with those who are tired of taking alcohol
or drugs, but also with their relatives.

"Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse
of his destructive vices," one of the members
of the group of self-help of anonymous
alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it
is never late to do the first step."

http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451

0 -1 0 0
4866 Mike Breedlove
Re: Preserving archival materials - magazines Preserving archival materials - magazines 2/9/2008 5:55:00 PM

Lou,

Let me first mention the COOL, Conservation
online site at - http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/
This site is always a good place to start with
conservation questions.

Another good place is the Library of Congress
web page - http://www.loc.gov/preserv/ There
are many others.

The three appropriate plastics (of which I am
aware) to use to create a clear bag for a
magazine (or any other paper product) are
polyester, polypropylene, and polyethylene.
Polyester, or Mylar-D, is by its nature is
both clearer and stiffer than polypropylene,
which is somewhat clearer and stiffer than
polyethylene. So the short answer to your
question is that polyester is the best material
to us to make a "bag" for a magazine. A 2 mil
(.002) thickness polyester would be sufficient
to support the weight of the magazine unless
the magazine is particularly thick, in which
case a 3 mil would suffice. Given the reality
of cost issues, neither polyester nor polypro-
pylene is that much superior to polyethylene,
particularly if the magazine is kept in the
dark.

A couple of other facts also need to be
mentioned. Even using a bag, one should be
careful to limit handling and display. Also,
the magazine should not be sealed airtight in
the bag, as paper slowly degrades on its own.
Sealing the paper in a bag creates an ever
more acidic environment for the paper. So in
the bag one should leave at least a small
opening on one or two ends to allow a minimal
air flow. Also, if staples are used in the
magazine, please remove them carefully before
placing the magazine in the bag. The metal
staples react with the paper, accelerating
the acidification process.

Particularly with a polyethylene bag using an
acid-free, lignin-free backing board to add
stiffness is very helpful in the case of
handling or display. The one cautionary note
is that if the bag is too tight or small,
that does in fact add physical stress to the
magazine that is not helpful. It would be
better to use an oversized bag and be careful
in handling the magazine that to stuff the
magazine in too small a bag. Hope this is
helpful.

I would suggest that if anyone has more specific
questions about preserving magazines, please
respond to me at my email, mikeb415@knology.net
(mikeb415 at knology.net) rather than to the
entire list. Any questions beyond my expertise
(likely) I will try to help refer to a more
learned person.

Yours in service, Mike B,
Area One Archivist

- - - -

From: lqd8rflp@aol.com (lqd8rflp at aol.com)

Try http://www.uniline.com -- they carry all
kinds of hard to find bags, supplies, etc.

Regards,

John Hager

DOS--2/29/88

- - - -

----- Original Message -----
From: LouPetrosino
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 11:13 AM
Subject: [SPAM] [AAHistoryLovers] Preserving archival materials


I have a question about preserving magazines,
printed material and letters. I have been
using 100% virgin polyethylene magazine bags;
how do these compare to mylar bags? Is there
a preference between the two? Is 100% virgin
important?

Using the large polyethylene bags that I do
have, it's a very tight fit for our older
Saturday Evening Posts. Has anyone else had a
problem like this? Anyone have a good source
for bags? I have been using the large, 10 7/8
x 14 1/4, from Bags Unlimited - they are
supposed to fit Life, Look, Saturday Evening
Post but seem a tad small.

I have also been using acid-free board to
help stiffen the magazines, is that a good
practice?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Lou






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4867 James Blair
Re: Member introduction and group response Member introduction and group response 2/9/2008 6:32:00 PM

Does anyone know the origins of the custom
of members sharing at meetings to introduce
themselves: "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic"

Open meetings in the early years of AA were
public meetings. I'm from Montreal and the
combined groups used to put on a "Public
Meeting" once a month. The speakers were
usually doctors, wardens, social workers and
an AA member who identified himself as an
alcoholic. These meetings were given a
lot of publicity in local papers and radio.

Public meeting carried on into the early 60's
at which time they became part of the Area
Conference and the public stopped coming.

I have 90 tapes of Bill Wilson and not once
in any of his AA talks does he ever introduce
himself as an alcoholic.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
4868 Mel Barger
Re: L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950? 2/10/2008 1:34:00 AM

Hi Mike,

Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers shows that a
couple named Emma and Lavelle K. came to live
with Dr. Bob in his last months. These must
be the Kniselys.

What follows is the Dr. Bob story from the
January 1951 Grapevine. Only Emma is mentioned
by name.

Mel Barger


January 1951
Vol. 7 No. 8
Without Heroics. . .As He Would Wish It, This Is the Story Of Dr. Bob the
Physician Whose 'Practice' Reached Half Across the world. . .
Dr. Bob was born August 8, 1879, in St. Johnsbury, Vermont, a typical New
England village of some 7000 souls. As the only son of parents prominent in
civic and church activities, his early childhood was spent under strict parental
guidance.

Signs of inner revolt came at an early age. In later years the doctor
liked to tell his children, Sue and Robert, of how he was put to bed every
evening at five o'clock. He would go quietly enough, a fact which might have led
the modern child-psychology-wise parent to suspect the worst, but which
seemingly went unnoticed by the young man's parents. As soon as he was
reasonably sure that he was considered safely asleep, he would arise, dress and
slip quietly downstairs and out the back door to join his village gang. So far
as is known he was never apprehended while on his nocturnal expeditions.

The call of the woodland trail was far more fascinating to young Rob, as
his schoolmates called him, than the stuffy schoolhouse to which he was forced
to make his reluctant way each morning. His active young mind was more apt to be
concentrating upon the best method to trap a bear than on the dull drone of his
teacher's voice. He wanted to be free to roam. Rebellion surged within him at
the thought of restraint of any sort. . .study and home-work were "musts". .
.even the keenness of his youthful mind was not enough to make up for his lack
of application to his daily lessons. Serious repercussions often followed which
led to accusations of "waywardness" by his parents and his teachers.

Though his scholastic neglect may have disgraced him with his elders upon
occasion, his schoolmates loved him. Whether it was because his habitual and
sometimes adventurous revolts against restraint gave him a glamorous aura or
because of the accuracy with which children often sense traits of character
obscure to adults, they made him a popular and sought-after member of their
class.

Freedom from some of the "musts" came with vacations. He was released,
then, to wander the hills, hunt, and trap and swim in the sea. Often Rob and his
friends went into Canada on hunting trips. On one of these forays into the
wilds, hunting was so poor that the boys lived on eels, blueberries and cream of
tartar biscuits for three weeks. They did flush a particularly large woodchuck.
They stalked him for several hours. Finally they had him within shooting range.

After being shot at for sometime, the woodchuck disappeared. This episode
later caused Rob's father, the Judge, to remark that the woodchuck probably went
in to get out of the noise.

The incident of the woodchuck and a tale of a great bear chase cast some
shadow of doubt on young Rob's prowess as a hunter and woodsman. Off to the
woods one day, went the young hunter and a schoolmate. The boys sauntered along,
kicking at stones. . .building castles in the air. . .talking about the things
that spirited adolescent males talk about. Suddenly they saw before them a huge
bear. The bear, who was probably as astonished as the boys, took to the woods at
a gallop. The young hunters were hard at his heels. The day was hot, the
brambles thick, courageous daring was at its height. . .the bear got away. "I
don't believe," Dr. Bob used to say, "that we ran as fast as we might have!"

In the summers the family often spent some weeks in a cottage by the sea.
Here Rob became an expert swimmer. He and his foster sister, Nancy, spent many
hours building and sailing their own sailboats. It was here that he saved a
young girl from drowning. This event must have left an impression. . .probably
of the advisability for every child to learn to swim at an early age. He taught
his own children, Robert R. and Sue, to be expert swimmers at the age of five.
The three of them would set out every vacation morning to swim the channel near
their cottage. This feat often caused distraught neighbors to call their mother
to tell her that her babies had fallen out of a boat in the middle of the
channel.

While the boy, Rob, was high-spirited, considered rebellious and wayward
he was industrious and labored long and hard at anything he wanted to do. He was
still very young when it became apparent that he was ambitious as well as
willing to work. He wanted, above all else, to become a medical doctor like his
maternal grandfather.

When he was about nine years old he began to show signs of liking to work,
especially out of doors. That summer he was at a neighbor's farm helping the men
load hay. Perhaps he was resting, perhaps he was prowling around poking under
bushes to see what he could see. . .he saw a jug. . .he pulled the cork and
sniffed. It was a new odor to this son of strict New England parents. It was an
odor that he liked. If the stuff in the jug smelled so good, it should taste
good too. And it was good. He liked the taste. He liked the way it made him
feel. A little boy; a jug of hooch; the first securely welded link in the chain.

By the time he reached his teens, Rob was spending parts of his summers
working on a Vermont farm or juggling trays and lugging baggage as a bellhop in
an Adirondack summer hotel. His winters were passed trying to avoid the
necessity of having to attend high school in order to receive a diploma. It may
have been during his high school days that young Rob learned much of what there
is to know about a billiard table. Later when his son, Robert, would tease him
about this accomplishment as being the product of a mis-spent youth, Dr. Bob
would just smile and say nothing. He was a good student in spite of himself and
graduated from St. Johnsbury Academy in 1898.

It was at a party given at the Academy that Dr. Bob first met Anne. A
student at Wellesley, she was spending a holiday with a college chum. It was a
small, reserved girl whom the tall, rangy Rob met that night. With an agile mind
to match his own, Anne had a cheerfulness, sweetness and calm that was to remain
with her through the years. It was these same qualities that were in the future
to endear her to hundreds as Anne, Dr. Bob's wife.

After high school at St. Johnsbury Academy came four years of college at
Dartmouth. At long last the rebellious young colt was free of his parents
restraining supervision. New experiences were to be explored and enjoyed without
having to give an accounting.

His first discovery in his search for the facts of life on the campus was
that joining the boys for a brew seemed to make up the greater part of
after-class recreation. From Dr. Bob's point of view it was the major
extra-curricular activity. It had long been evident that whatever Rob did, he
did well. He became a leader in the sport. He drank for the sheer fun of it and
suffered little or no ill-effects.

Fame came to him at Dartmouth--no accolades for scholarship. . .no letters
for athletic prowess. . .his fame came for a capacity for drinking beer that was
matched by few and topped by none. . .and for what the students called his
"patent throat." They would stand in awe watching him consume an entire bottle
of beer without any visible muscular movement of swallowing.

The prospects of getting drunk in the evening furnished Rob and his
cronies with conversations which ran on all day. The pros and cons of whether to
get drunk or not to get drunk would invariably drive one of their mild-mannered
friends to distraction. He would rise in spluttering protest to say, "Well! If I
were going to get drunk, I'd be about it!"

As often as not. . .they were about it. There were times, though, when a
change of scenery seemed more to their liking. Like the time Rob and a friend
got it into their heads that going to Montpelier, Vermont was a fine idea.
Admiral Dewey had just returned from Manila and was to parade through the town.
Being in the usual state of financial embarrassment, how to get there caused a
fleeting problem, but being convinced that where there was a will, a way would
certainly present itself, they hopped a freight. In the morning weary but
mightily pleased with themselves, they descended from the boxcar in Montpelier.
As they walked up the street toward the parade route they met a fellow Dartmouth
student. The boys greeted him with as much dignity as their grimy faces and
straw-flecked garments would allow. To their astonishment his "Hello" was most
cordial. Wouldn't they like to go to the State House with him? There, from the
reviewing stand, the boys viewed the parade with their Dartmouth friend, whose
father was the Governor of Vermont.

Through the carefree days at college he studied just about as much as he
had to, to get by. But he was a good student none-the-less. Here he made friends
whom he was to know and to see from time to time through his life. . .friends
who did not always approve of his drinking prowess, but loved him in spite of
it.

His last years at Dartmouth were spent doing exactly what he wanted to do
with little thought of the wishes or feelings of others. . .a state of mind
which became more and more predominate as the years passed. Rob graduated in
1902. . ."summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity. The dean had
a somewhat lower estimate.

Now that he held a Dartmouth diploma, it seemed advisable that the willful
young man settle down to making a living and a solid, secure future for himself.
He wasn't ready to settle down to a job. The strong desire to become a medical
doctor was still with him. His mother, who had never approved of this career for
her son, hadn't altered her views. He went to work.

For the next three years his business career was varied, if not
successful. The first two years he worked for a large scale company; then he
went to Montreal where he labored diligently at selling railway supplies, gas
engines of all sorts and many other items of heavy hardware. He left Montreal
and went to Boston where he was employed at Filene's. What his duties were
there, have never been recorded.

All through this three year period he was drinking as much as purse
allowed, still without getting into any serious trouble. But he wasn't making
any headway either. Whatever his duties at Filene's were, they certainly were
not what he wanted to do. He still wanted to be a doctor. It was time he was
about it. He quit his job at the store and that Fall entered the University of
Michigan as a premedical student.

Again he was free of all restraint and doing just as he wanted to do.
Earnestly, he got down to serious business. . .the serious business of drinking
as much as he could and still make it to class in the morning. His famous
capacity for beer followed him to the Michigan campus. He was elected to
membership in the drinking fraternity. Once again he displayed the wonders of
his "patent throat" before his gaping brothers.

He, who had boasted to his friends. . ."Never had a hangover in my life. .
.began to have the morning after shakes. Many a morning Dr. Bob went to classes
and even though fully prepared, turned away at the door and went back to the
fraternity house. So bad were his jitters that he feared he would cause a scene
if he should be called on.

He went from bad to worse. No longer drinking for the fun of it, his life
at Michigan became one long binge after another. In the Spring of his Sophomore
year, Dr. Bob made up his mind that he could not complete his course. He packed
his grip and headed South.

After a month spent on a large farm owned by a friend, the fog began to
clear from his brain. As he began to think more clearly he realized that it was
very foolish to quit school. He decided to return and continue his work.

The faculty had other ideas on the subject. They were, they told him,
completely disgusted. It would require no effort at all to get along without his
presence on the Michigan campus. After a long argument they allowed him to
return to take his exams. He passed them creditably. After many more painful
discussions, the faculty also gave him his credits.

That Fall he entered Brush University as a Junior. Here his drinking
became so much worse that his fraternity brothers felt forced to send for his
father. The Judge made the long journey in a vain effort to get him straightened
out.

After those long disastrous binges when Dr. Bob was forced to face his
father he had a deep feeling of guilt. His father always met the situation
quietly, "Well, what did this one cost you?" he would ask. Oddly enough this
feeling of guilt would come, not because he felt that he had hurt him in any
way, but because his father seemed, somehow, to understand. It was this quiet,
hopeless understanding that pained him deep inside.

He was drinking more and more hard liquor, now, and coming up to his final
exams he went on a particularly rough binge. When he went in to the examinations
his hand trembled so badly he could not hold a pencil. He was, of course, called
before the faculty. Their decision was that if he wished to graduate he must
come back for two more quarters, remaining absolutely dry. This he was able to
do. The faculty considered his work so creditable he was able to secure a much
coveted internship in City Hospital in Akron, Ohio.

The first two years in Akron, as a young interne, were free of trouble.
Hard work took the place of hard drinking simply because there wasn't time for
both. At one time during his internship he ran the hospital pharmacy by himself.
This added to other duties took him all over the hospital. . .running up and
down the stairs because the elevators were too slow. . .running here, rushing
there as if the devil were after him. All this frenzied activity never failed to
bring about an explosive, "Now where is that cadaverous young Yankee!" from one
of the older doctors who became particularly fond of him.

Though the two years as interne at City were hectic, Dr. Bob had time to
learn much from the older men who were glad to share their knowledge with him.
He began to perfect his own skills so that he might become a specialist, a
surgeon.

When his two years of internship were over he opened an office in The
Second National Bank Building, in Akron. This was in 1912. His offices were in
the same building until he retired from practice in 1948.

Completely out on his own now, and again free to do as he chose--some
money in his pocket and all the time in the world. It may have been that
reaction set in from all the work, the irregular hours, the hectic life of an
interne; it may have been real or imagined; whatever caused it, Dr. Bob
developed considerable stomach trouble. The remedy for that was, of course, a
couple of drinks. It didn't take him long to return to the old drinking habits.

Now he began to know the real horror, the suffering of pain that goes with
alcoholism. In hope of relief, he incarcerated himself at least a dozen times in
one of the local sanitariums. After three years of this torture he ended up in a
local hospital where they tried to help him. But he got his friends to smuggle
him in a quart. Or, if that failed, it wasn't difficult for a man who knew his
way around a hospital to steal the alcohol kept in the building. He got rapidly
worse.

Finally his father had to send a doctor out from St. Johnsbury to attempt
to get him home. Somehow the doctor managed to get him back to the house he was
born in, where he stayed in bed for two months before he could venture out. He
stayed around town for about two months more, then returned to Akron to resume
his practice. Dr. Bob was thoroughly scared, either by what had happened, by
what the doctor had told him, or both. He went into one of his dry periods and
stayed that way until the 18th Amendment was passed.

In 1915 he went back to Chicago to marry Anne. He brought her back to
Akron as his bride. The first three years of their married life were free of the
unhappiness that was to come later. He became established in his practice. Their
son Robert was born and life began to make a sensible pattern. Then the 18th
Amendment was passed.

Dr. Bob's reasoning was quite typical at this time, if not quite logical.
It would make very little difference if he did take a few drinks now. The liquor
that he and his friends had bought in amounts according to the size of their
bank accounts, would soon be gone. He could come to no harm. He was soon to
learn the facts of the Great American Experiment.

The government obligingly made it possible for doctors to obtain unlimited
supplies of liquor. Often during those black years, Dr. Bob, who held his
profession sacred, would go to the phone book, pick out a name at random and
fill out the prescription which would get him a pint of whisky.

When all else failed there was the newly accredited member of American
society, the bootlegger. A moderate beginning led to Dr. Bob's usual ending.

During the next few years, he developed two distinct phobias. One was the
fear of not sleeping and the other was the fear of running out of liquor. So
began the squirrel-cage existence. Staying sober to earn enough money to get
drunk. . .getting drunk to go to sleep. . .using sedatives to quiet the jitters.
. .staying sober. . .earning money. . .getting drunk. . .smuggling home a
bottle. . .hiding the bottle from Anne who became an expert at detecting hiding
places

This horrible nightmare went on for seventeen years. Somehow he had the
good sense to stay away from the hospital and not to receive patients if he were
drinking. He stayed sober every day until four o'clock, then came home. In this
way he was able to keep his drinking problem from becoming common knowledge or
hospital gossip.

Through these mad years Dr. Bob was an active member of the City Hospital
Staff and often he had occasion to go to St. Thomas Hospital, where in 1934, he
became a member of the Courtesy Staff and in 1943, a member of the Active Staff.
It was during one of these visits to St. Thomas, in 1928, that in the course of
his duties, he met Sister Mary Ignatia.

The meeting seemed of no particular consequence at the time. Many Sisters
came to St. Thomas, then departed for duties elsewhere. Though neither of them
knew it, the meeting was to have great importance to them both in the years to
come. Sister Ignatia, like the others, never knew of the inner turmoil with
which this man was beset. . ."He just always seemed different than the rest. .
.he brought something with him when he came into a room. . .I never knew what it
was, I just felt it. . ."

So perhaps it was, then, that the Hand that moves us all was beginning to
speed up the events that led to Dr. Bob's meeting with the stranger.

Anne and the children now lived in a shambles of broken promises, given in
all sincerity. Unable to see her friends, she existed on the bare necessities.
About all she had left was her faith that her prayers for her husband would
somehow be answered.

It then happened that Dr. Bob and Anne were thrown in with a crowd of
people who attracted Dr. Bob because of their poise, health and happiness. These
people spoke without embarrassment, a thing he could never do. They all seemed
very much at ease. Above all, they seemed happy. They were members of the Oxford
Group.

Self conscious, ill at ease most of the time, his health nearing the
breaking point, Dr. Bob was thoroughly miserable. He sensed that these new-found
friends had something that he did not have. He felt that he could profit from
them.

When he learned that what they had was something of a spiritual nature,
his enthusiasm was somewhat dampened. Unfortunately his childhood background of
church twice during the week and three times on Sunday had caused him to resolve
that he would never appear in a church so long as he lived. He kept that resolve
for 40 years except when his presence there was absolutely necessary. It helped
some to find out that these people did not gather in a church but at each
other's homes.

That they might have the answer to his drinking problem never entered his
head but he thought it could do him no harm to study their philosophy. For the
next two and one half years he attended their meetings. And got drunk regularly!

Anne became deeply interested in the group and her interest sustained Dr.
Bob's. He delved into religious philosophy, he read the Scriptures, he studied
spiritual interpretations, the lives of the Saints. Like a sponge he soaked up
the spiritual philosophies of the ages. Anne kept her simple faith in prayer. .
.and her courage--Dr. Bob got drunk.

Then one Saturday afternoon, Henrietta called Anne. Could they come over
to meet a friend of hers who might help Bob. . .

At five o'clock Sunday evening they were at Henrietta's door. Dr. Bob
faced Bill W. who said, "You must be awfully thirsty. . .this won't take us
long. . ."

From the moment Bill spoke to him, Dr. Bob knew that here was a man who
knew what he was talking about. As the hours passed, Bill told of his
experiences with alcohol; he told him of the simple message that a friend had
brought. . . "Show me your faith and by my works I will show you mine. . ."

Slowly, at first, then with sudden clarity, Dr. Bob began to understand.
Bill had been able to control his drinking problem by the very means that Dr.
Bob, himself had been trying to use. . .but there was a difference. The
spiritual approach was as useless as any other if you soaked it up like a sponge
and kept it all to yourself. True, Bill had been preaching his message at any
drunk who would listen; he had been unsuccessful 'til now, but the important
thing was that by giving his knowledge away, he, himself, was sober!

There was one more short binge for Dr. Bob after that talk. On June 10,
1935, he took his last drink. It was high time now to put his house in order.
With his quiet professional dignity, his ready humor, he got about it.

Bill stayed on in Akron for several months, living with Dr. Bob and Anne.
It wasn't long before they realized that they needed another drunk to help, if
they could. The two men went over to City Hospital. They asked the nurse on
"admitting" if she had an alcoholic in the hospital. They were taken to a room
where a man lay strapped to the bed, writhing in agony, "Will this one do?" the
nurse asked. "This one" would do very well. That human wreck to whom they talked
that day and several times after, came out of the hospital, sober. Bill D.
became the third member of the little group. . .AA Number Three!

Dr. Bob now was a man with a purpose and the will to live. When the fog
cleared out of his brain, his health had improved. He felt so good in the summer
of 1935, at 56 years of age, that he took Bob and Sue out to the tennis courts
one day. He played them six straight sets of tennis. The kids were done in.

Anne began to live again, too. She was happy with her husband's new-found,
joyful sobriety. She was no longer friendless, alone. Her kitchen table was
almost always littered with coffee cups, a fresh pot-full sat waiting on the
stove. Her faith, her belief in prayer and divine guidance went far to carry the
men through that first summer.

In the year 1935, there were few men alive who would accept the fact that
alcoholism is a disease, which should be treated as such. Prejudice and
ignorance were some of the problems facing Dr. Bob as he set about helping sick
alcoholics with his professional skill and his new-found spiritual
understanding. City Hospital was often filled with drunks smuggled in under
trumped-up diagnosis. The old-timers who were hospitalized during those first
years were admitted as suffering from "acute gastritis."

Since he was on the courtesy staff at St. Thomas, run by the Sisters of
Charity of St. Augustine, Dr. Bob felt that he might enlist the help of Sister
Ignatia. He knew that it had never seemed right to her that a drunk should be
turned away. She couldn't understand why a drunk on the verge of DT's was turned
away but a drunk with a bashed-in head was admitted. They were both sick. They
both needed help.

His first approach to her on the subject was casual. He didn't tell her
much nor did he make any promises. He just told her that he was trying to treat
alcoholics by a new method. He and some other alcoholics, he said believed that
alcoholism could be controlled by medical attention coupled with the spiritual.
His remarks, though brief, made sense to her.

It wasn't long before Dr. Bob brought in an alcoholic. Sister admitted him
as having acute indigestion. He was put to bed in a double room. Then Dr. Bob
told her quietly, "We'd like to have him in a private room in the morning." As
if it weren't bad enough to have an illegal admittance on her conscience this
man was asking for a private room! Morning found the patient peacefully asleep,
on a cot in the room where flowers were trimmed and arranged for patients'
rooms!

After that more and more "acute gastritis" cases woke up in St. Thomas
Hospital. In August, 1939, Dr. Bob brought a patient to Sister for admittance.
So far as is known, he was the first alcoholic ever to be admitted into a
general hospital under the diagnosis: Alcoholism. Dr. Bob never could remember
just what the policy of the hospital was at that time, nor did he recall ever
having asked.

Since that August day there have been 4800 cases admitted into St. Thomas.
Until Dr. Bob retired, he visited the ward each day to give personal attention
to each patient. His cheerful, "Well, what can I do for you?" was heard in the
ward for the last time, on Christmas, 1949. On that day Sister played the organ
for him and showed him the beautiful new chimes. . .talked of her hopes of more
beds and furniture for a lounge outside the ward. The chimes tell the story of
the bitter criticism of 10 years ago to the complete co-operation from everyone
connected with the hospital today. But so long as Sister Ignatia goes about her
duties on the admitting desk and in the AA ward, whenever a drunk is brought in
a call will come, "Sister, you'd better come. One of your boys is downstairs!"

Dr. Bob and his first few red-eyed disciples continued to meet with the
Oxford Group. But they were a 'special interest' bloc. The unpredictable nature
of the alcoholic and his preoccupation with the earthy realities of drinking and
drunkenness, led the tactful Doctor to the idea of separate meetings.

Without fuss or bother, Dr. Bob announced that there would be a meeting
for the alcoholics. . .if any of them cared to come. When the meeting came to
order, all of the little band were there. Dr. Bob put his foot on the rung of a
dining room chair, identified himself as an alcoholic and began reading The
Sermon on the Mount. Still not known as Alcoholics Anonymous, this was the first
Akron meeting for alcoholics only.

Word of the work being done in Akron began to spread to nearby Cleveland.
Men began coming over to be hospitalized in St. Thomas or City Hospital. The
growth of the group speeded up. By 1939, they were meeting in Akron's Kings
School. They had long since outgrown Anne's small house. Through all the growth,
the hurts that come with growing pains, the gossip, the little grievances, Dr.
Bob listened to them all.

Occasionally, he advised. He became the "father confessor" to the group.
So sacred to him were confidences, that he would not break them for anybody or
anything. Anne used to tease him about be-being "so close-mouthed" that she
claimed she didn't know a thing that was going on. She laughingly told him that
she would divorce him unless he told her some of the things he knew. . .but she
was quick to retract her statement because she knew, even for her, he would not
break a confidence.

By 1939, there were enough men coming to Akron from Cleveland to make it
seem advisable to start a Cleveland Group. The first meeting was held in May of
that year. The break away from the Akron group brought with it disagreements.
The only thing that kept them on an even keel, say those pioneers, was the sound
wisdom of Dr. Bob. How he kept his sanity seemed a miracle. There he was, they
say, in the midst of a bunch of unstable people, not yet dry behind the cars. It
may have been because he would never allow one man to speak ill of another
unless that man were present, that the Cleveland off-spring survived.

By the end of 1939, Cleveland had proved a big point in AA history. It had
proved, first that one group could break from another. This they proved
conclusively because by the end of the year there was not one Cleveland group. .
.there were three! The two splits had been brought about by differences of
opinion. It seemed that no matter what happened the group activity would go on.
Cleveland proved, too, that alcoholics could be sobered up on what almost
amounted to a mass production basis. By 1944, the Cleveland membership was well
past 1000. Dr. Bob's wise counsel was right. . ."there's no use worrying about
these things. As long as people have faith and believe, this will go on."

In the years that came after that meeting on Mother's Day, 1935, Dr. Bob
gave freely of himself to all who came to ask for help, to seek advice. . .to
laugh or to cry. In so helping others, he began to rebuild himself.
Professionally, he became loved and respected by all who worked with him. .
.socially he was once again the kind, dignified man who Anne and their friends
knew and admired.

Dr. Bob, as Anne had known him to be, was possessed of calm professional
dignity which gave courage and heart to his patients. In the years to come, this
dignity, was to play a large part in the lives of the hundreds who came to his
door. Never given to loose talk, Dr. Bob controlled his tongue as surely, as
steadily and as potently as he did his scalpel. He used the gift of speech with
the same concise economy, the sureness of purpose, that went into each deft
movement of his surgeon's hands.

More often than not his observations were sprinkled with salty humor. Dr.
Bob had the rare quality of being able to laugh at himself and with others. As
much a part of him as his quiet professional dignity, was this keen sense of
humor. He spoke with a broad New England accent and was given to dropping a
remark or telling a riotous story absolutely deadpan. This sometimes proved
disconcerting to those who did not know him well, especially when he referred to
the poised, charming Anne, as "The Frail."

Seldom did he call his friends by their given names. . .it was Abercrombie
to those men of whom he was particularly fond--or Sugar to close women friends.
. .a friend in the loan business was Shylock. This tall "cadaverous looking
Yankee" who held his profession sacred and walked through life with dignity
would tell anyone who questioned him as to his hopes, his ambitions. . .that all
he ever wanted in life was "to have curly hair, to tap dance, to play the piano
and to own a convertible."

One of the very early Akron members says that the first impression he had
of Dr. Bob was of a gruff person, a bit forbidding, with a habit of looking over
his glasses. He gave the impression of looking right through to your soul. This
AA says that he got the impression that Dr. Bob knew exactly what he was
thinking. . .and found out later that he did!

When he met Dr. Bob for the first time, what was offered seemed to the new
man, a perfect answer to an immediate and serious problem. . .it was something
to tell a boss who, at the time was none too sympathetic to his drinking. Dr.
Bob knew that the man wasn't being honest with him, and he knew he was kidding
himself. No lectures were given, no recriminations. Dr. Bob began to make a
habit of stopping by the man's house after office hours. About twice a week he
stopped for coffee and the two men discussed. . .honesty. Then Dr. Bob suggested
that the man stop kidding himself. Their discussion moved on to faith. . .faith
in God. The new man went to his employer and, for the first time, saw the
practical power of real honesty. A problem which had looked insurmountable,
vanished, just melted away.

Dr. Bob always began his day with a prayer and meditation over some
familiar Bible verse, then he set about his work in "My Father's vineyard. ."
The work in the "vineyard" was not easy in those years. No "preaching" would
have served, either to the alcoholics who came his way or to those skeptic
members of his profession. He began, now to make AA a way of life.

His life began to be an example of patience and serenity for all to see
and to benefit by if they so chose. It was too early in the years of education
on alcoholism to be able to speak of the disease above a whisper. . .Dr. Bob and
Sister Ignatia developed a little code. . .the boys on the third floor were
called the Frails, while the surgical patients were spoken of in the most proper
professional terms. Often while he went about the business of washing up he had
to listen in silence to bitter remarks from his fellow doctors. . ."Too bad this
hospital is so full that a fellow can't get a patient in. . .always room for the
drunks though--"

In the years to come he was to live to hear himself introduced as the
co-founder of "the greatest," "most wonderful," "must momentous movement of all
times. . ." For these tributes he was grateful, but he laughed them off and upon
one occasion was heard to remark. . ."The speaker certainly takes in a lot of
territory and plenty of time. . ."

In his drinking days, Dr. Bob was two people, two personalities. After his
return to sobriety he remained two personalities. As he made his rounds through
the hospitals he was the medical practitioner but as he entered the door of the
alcoholic ward he became, Dr. Bob, a man eager, willing and able to help his
fellowman. Those who worked with him say that as he left the hospital each day
they felt that two men went out the door. . .one a great M.D., the other a great
man.

Dr. Bob and Anne lived simply and without pretense in their modest home.
Here they shared the joys of parenthood, the sorrows, the companionship of their
friends. He was an industrious man, willing to work for the creature comforts
that he loved. He accepted with humility any material wealth that came his way.
Something of a perfectionist, he loved diamonds, not for possession, but for the
beauty of their brilliant perfection. He would go out of his way to look at a
diamond owned by another. . .he would go out of his way, too, to look at a
favorite view of his beloved mountains and sea.

If he had any pride in possession it was for big gleaming automobiles. He
owned, through his life, many of them. He treated them with the care that their
mechanical perfection deserved. The car that he probably loved the most was the
last one he bought just before the end. . .the convertible. The car that
symbolized a lifetime ambition. His friends will remember him in the summer of
1950, at 71, speeding through the streets of Akron in his new yellow Buick
convertible--the long slim lines made even more rakish with the top down. No
hat, his face to the sun, into the driveway he sped, pebbles flying, tires
screeching, he'd swoosh to a stop! Fate, however, permitted him only 150 miles
of this joyous "hot-rod" driving. It was with reluctance, that summer, that he
gave in to his illness. For the forty fifth year he returned to his home in
Vermont. . .in the staid and sedate sedan. . ."I won't be able to see the
mountains so well. . .but my legs are a little long for that roadster. . ."

Until the last summer his days were spent in the routine of the hospital.
. .his office and his club, for recreation. During almost all of his adult life
in Akron, Dr. Bob lunched at the City Club. In his drinking days, it was often
to hide away in a room until he was found by friends. But in later years it was
to enjoy the companionship of his good friends, some of whom joined him in his
new-found sobriety, others had no need of the help he could give them. . .other
than the pleasure of his friendship.

Noon would almost always find him at the same table in the corner of the
men's dining room. There, for more than ten years he was served by the same
waitress, Nancy. Dr. Bob always greeted her with, "How's my chum today. . ."They
were good friends. As Nancy served him his simple lunch of melon or grapefruit,
soup, milk or coffee and his favorite Boston CreamPie, they discussed her
problems. Once, Nancy, who was ill at the time, became uncontrollably angry and
threw a cracker basket at another waiter. Dr. Bob admonished. . ."Now, now Chum,
don't let little things bother you. . ."The next day he sent her "As a Man
Thinketh So Is He" and "The Runner's Bible."

Nancy always looked forward to serving Dr. Bob and his friends. . ."he was
such a good fellow. . ."Often when there was much discussion, arguments and pros
and cons, Nancy would ask him why he didn't say something, to which he'd answer.
. ."Too much being said already!" To Nancy, Dr. Bob was "such a good kind man. .
.he had such a simple faith in prayer."

After luncheon, if time permitted, Dr. Bob joined his cronies for a game
of Rum or Bridge. He was expert at both; and he always played to win. The man
who would give you his last dollar, though his own creditors might be hard at
his heels, would take your last cent away from you, if he could, in a card game.
. .but he never got angry. He had the habit of keeping up a steady chatter
through the game, his cronies say that it could have been annoying except that
it was always so funny that you had to laugh.

Dr. Bob vowed that it was silly to take the game seriously. . .never could
see how these tournament players got so serious about this thing. Once when he
and Anne were in Florida, he was airing his views to a stranger on the
seriousness of some bridge players. The subject had come up because a bridge
tournament was scheduled for that day. The two men sat together discussing
bridge until they talked themselves into entering the tournament. . .since they
had nothing better to do. The stranger and Dr. Bob made a good showing among the
"serious" players. They won that afternoon but upset their opponents to such a
degree as to cause one to remark, "If you had bid right and played right you
never would have won!" Whereupon Dr. Bob said, "Quite so," as he accepted the
first prize.

For some obscure reason, Dr. Bob always carried a pocket-full of silver.
It may have been a hangover from the insecure squirrel-cage days of the eternal
fight to keep enough money in his pocket to buy a quart or it may have been just
because he liked to hear the jingle but there were times when he had as much as
ten dollars in his pocket.

He had one particular friend with whom he would match a fifty cent piece
by way of greeting. No matter where the two met, each would silently reach into
his pocket, draw out the silver and match. Silently the winner took the money
from the other. The first time Dr. Bob underwent serious surgery, he could not
have visitors. His coin-matching friend came to the hospital to call. He was met
there by Emma, the woman friend and nurse who cared for Anne. Emma met the
visitor in the guest lounge. She greeted him silently with a coin in her palm. .
.silently they matched. Dr. Bob was the richer by fifty cents.

This man of two personalities would weep as he told you of his fear that
his skill would not enable him to save the life of a charity patient; then again
he would weep as he told of what seemed to be a miraculous recovery. He would
weep, too, from laughter at some story which struck his fancy.

As his son, Bob, grew into manhood, Dr. Bob shared with him the incidents
and the fun of the day. He could hardly wait, it seemed, to get home to tell
young Bob some story picked up at the hospital. Young Bob tells of how he would
tell a good story, or listen to one, then lean back in his chair to laugh until
the tears streamed down his cheeks. Then with a familiar gesture, he took off
his glasses to wipe the tears away. . .still chuckling. "Our home was a happy
one, in those days," said young Bob, "I never heard a cross word between my
mother and my father."

The war, then marriage took young Bob from home and to Texas where he now
lives. Bob laughs as he tells of his father's first meeting with his
bride-to-be. He looked her up and down then remarked, in his dry and
disconcerting fashion; "She's all right, son. She's built for speed and light
house-keeping!"

Young Bob often remarked to his father about his seemingly endless
knowledge of medicine, philosophies and general bits of information. To which
Dr. Bob would reply, "Well, I should know something, I've read for at least an
hour every night of my adult life--drunk or sober." Sometime during the course
of all the reading, he delved into Spiritualism. . .he even tried the mysteries
of the Ouija board. He felt that in some far distant centuries, the science of
the mind would be so developed as to make possible contact between the living
and the dead.

All the reading of the years had included studies on alcoholism, too. This
scientific knowledge coupled with his experiences with alcoholics including
himself might well have led him to a strictly scientific approach. He could,
with ease, have spoken of statistics, cures and the like because he undoubtedly
listened to more "case histories" than any other man alive. He listened
patiently to each man in the ward, to every person who came to his home for
advice, and there were hundreds.

He remained plain Dr. Bob, alcoholic, who came to believe that the
disorder was more on the psychological and spiritual side rather than the
physical. The thinking of the alcoholic patient was all beclouded, his attitudes
were wrong, his philosophy of life was all mixed up, he had no spiritual life. .
.the whole man was sick. As one man said, "He came to me in the hospital, he sat
quietly by my bed and talked, then he prayed to his God for me. . .that's what
stuck. . .that he took the time and interest and the compassion to pray for me.
. ."

The happy years of Dr. Bob's sobriety were marred, at last, by Anne's
illness and blindness. Cataracts were completely covering her eyes, so that she
could not see. . .even after surgery her last years were spent in shadows. Dr.
Bob began, then, to be her eyes as much as he could. Still in medical practice,
though, he could not be with her every hour. It was then, in his own quiet way
that he found a solution.

In 1942, years before Anne's blindness had become serious, two strangers
came to his office, a man and his wife, Emma. The man was seeking the help that
Dr. Bob could give him. The three sat in his office and talked for almost an
hour, while in the reception room waited the "paying patients." Occasionally,
after that first meeting, Dr. Bob and Anne stopped by their house; they saw them
each week at the AA meeting in King School.

Dr. Bob knew that Anne's blindness was fast growing worse and that she
needed daily care. . .he knew too, that she would be unhappy to think of herself
as a burden to anyone. It came vacation time, the children were gone which meant
that the house must be left empty. . .the dog to his own devices. What better
plan than the nice couple, who lived down the street should come to the house
while they were on vacation. . .to keep it in running order and watch over the
dog? Would the couple consider throwing some clothes into a bag and going over
to the house? So it was for eight years Emma, a nurse, and her husband came from
time to time to stay at Dr. Bob's house. . .until it was necessary for Emma to
be with Anne at all times. In the last years of Anne's illness she kept house
for them and during the day, when Dr. Bob was at his office, she watched over
Anne.

Through those last years together Anne, though in ill health, stood ever
ready to give words of hope and encouragement to all who came to her door. Her
first thoughts were for others, never herself, no matter how badly she might
feel. When Dr. Bob and Anne prepared for their last trip together, Anne said,
"You know, I don't really care to go but Dad wants too, and he may never be able
to make the trip again. . .it will make him happy." Of the same trip, Dr. Bob
said of Anne, "I don't really want to go, but Anne wants it. It will make her
happy." Each took the long trip feeling that it was making the other happy.

It was in June, 1949, just after their return, that Anne passed away. At
the time of her passing, Dr. Bob, said, "I will miss her terribly, but she would
have had it no other way. Had she survived this attack she would have been in
the hospital for months. . .then there would have been months at home in bed. .
.she would have hated being a burden. . .she could not have stood it."

In the summer of 1948, Dr. Bob found that he, too, was suffering from a
serious malady. He closed his office and retired from practice, so that he and
Anne could live their last days together, quietly. For a time after Anne died,
there was some indecision in the house. It was understood that Emma and her
husband, who had by this time been spending most of their time at the house,
would leave and go to their own home. Dr. Bob was to get a housekeeper or a
nurse. He did interview one woman, but his heart wasn't in it. It was then that
they all felt that Anne had reached out and made their decision for them.

For the first few weeks after Anne's death, Dr. Bob and Emma dreamed of
Anne almost every night. To Emma, she seemed troubled. One night Emma's dream of
Anne was so real as to be almost a vision. Emma knew what she must do. Next
morning she faced Dr. Bob. "Do you want us to stay with you?" His answer was
quick and simple, "Yes." None of them dreamed of Anne again.

So it was that the couple who once came to Dr. Bob for help, came to spend
the last year and one half with him. . .they gave up their apartment and lived
with him until he too, passed on.

Ever the professional man, Dr. Bob watched the progress of his disease
each day. When at last, he knew that the malady was malignant and hopeless, he
accepted it with calm and lack of resentment. He felt no bitterness at the
doctors who had failed to make an early diagnosis. . ."Why should I blame them?
I've probably made a lot of fatal mistakes myself!"

Between the times that he was forced to stay in bed or to go to the
hospital to undergo surgery, he lived his life as normally as possible and got
as much enjoyment out of it as he could. After Anne's death, he and a good
friend drove to the West Coast, where they renewed old acquaintances; then they
went on to his home in Vermont. . .and to Maine. Where ever he went AAs showered
him with attention and kindness. Of this he said, "Sometimes these good people
do so much for me, it is embarrassing. I have done nothing to deserve it, I have
only been an instrument through which God worked."

At home Dr. Bob settled down to enjoying his friends and the things he
could do for them. . .between his serious attacks he enjoyed "Emmy's" good food.
"I never saw a man who could eat so much sauerkraut. . .he would go without his
dessert, just to have another helping!" Then came the television set.

Emma's husband went to Dr. Bob one day telling him that he was in the mood
to buy a television set. "Well," said Dr. Bob, who didn't like television. .
.would have no part of it. . ."I guess if you can buy the set, I can give you
the chimney for the aerial." The beautiful new set arrived in due time but Dr.
Bob would have none of it. He absolutely refused to look at it. Then one night,
as he lay on the davenport. Emma caught him peeking around his newspaper! The
"sneaking a look" went on for days until he succumbed and became a fan. After
that he spent long pleasant hours watching the TV shows. . .especially the tap
dancers. . ."Hmph," he'd grunt, "that's easy. . .nothing to it. . .anybody can
do it!" At the time of the Louis: Charles fight, he stayed in bed all day so
that he would be rested enough to see the fight that evening!

As a patient, Dr. Bob behaved himself very well except for one thing. He
refused to take his pills as they were scheduled. Instead he put his old "patent
throat" to use. He kept a shot glass, which he filled with all the pills he was
to take for the day. While Emma looked on in awe, even as the brothers of yore,
he'd throw back his head and toss off the pills at one gulp. . ."What difference
does it make? They all go to the same place anyway!"

That he knew the exact progress of his disease was evident to Emma and
those close to him, although he never complained, even when in pain. After a
doctor's call he would say to Emma, "Sugar, don't kid me now. This is the end
isn't it?" Emma always answered with, "Now you know better. You know exactly
what's going on!"

During the Spring and Summer of 1950, when he had to husband his strength
and measure it out carefully, Dr. Bob expressed the wish to do three things. He
wanted to attend the First International Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous in
Cleveland. He wanted, once again, to go to St. Johnsbury, Vermont, for his
vacation. And he wanted to spend Christmas with his son in Texas. . .two of his
wishes were fulfilled.

As the days passed and the date of the Conference drew nearer, he began
more and more, to conserve his energy. Most of his days were spent in his room.
. .on the davenport watching the TV cap-dancers and listening to the pianists.
Those who were close to him watched him grow weaker. . .then rally. . .

While the last, mad days of preparations for the Conference were going on
in Cleveland, it seemed, at times, to his close friends, that he would not
gather the strength to do the thing that he so much wanted to do. Even to the
last minutes before the Big Meeting, on Sunday, it was doubtful whether he would
be granted the vigor he needed to appear in the Cleveland Auditorium to say the
few words that he wanted to say to the thousands waiting to hear and see him.

Those gathered that hot Sunday afternoon, now know, that when at last Dr.
Bob joined the others on the platform they were witnessing another milestone of
the movement built on simple faith and works. . .At the time, this throng was
perhaps too close to history to know the full meaning of what was taking place
before them. . .Now he came forward to speak to the thousands. . .with quiet
dignity. . .even as that night so long ago, when in Anne's living room, he put
his foot on the rung of a dining room chair to read The Sermon on the Mount. .
.he leaned forward against the lectern to say:

"My good friends in AA and of AA. I feel I would be very remiss if I
didn't take this opportunity to welcome you here to Cleveland not only to this
meeting but those that have already transpired. I hope very much that the
presence of so many people and the words that you have heard will prove an
inspiration to you--not only to you but may you be able to impart that
inspiration to the boys and girls back home who were not fortunate enough to be
able to come. In other words, we hope that your visit here has been both
enjoyable and profitable.

"I get a big thrill out of looking over a vast sea of faces like this with
a feeling that possibly some small thing that I did a number of years ago played
an infinitely small part in making this meeting possible. I also get quite a
thrill when I think that we all had the same problem. We all did the same
things. We all get the same results in proportion to our zeal and enthusiasm and
stick-to-itiveness. If you will pardon the injection of a personal note at this
time, let me say that I have been in bed five of the last seven months and my
strength hasn't returned as I would like, so my remarks of necessity will be
very brief.

"But there are two or three things that flashed into my mind on which it
would be fitting to lay a little emphasis; one is the simplicity of our Program.
Let's not louse it all up with Freudian complexes and things that are
interesting to the scientific mind but have very little to do with our actual AA
work. Our 12 Steps, when simmered down to the last, resolve themselves into the
words love and service. We understand what love is and we understand what
service is. So let's bear those two things in mind.

"Let us also remember to guard that erring member--the tongue, and if we
must use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance.

"And one more thing; none of us would be here today if somebody hadn't
taken time to explain things to us, to give us a little pat on the back, to take
us to a meeting or two, to have done numerous little kind and thoughtful acts in
our behalf. So let us never get the degree of smug complacency so that we're not
willing to extend or attempt to, that help which has been so beneficial to us,
to our less fortunate brothers. Thank you very much."

As he returned to his seat on the platform, those who watched could easily
see that the exertion of saying the brief words of counsel had left him
physically weak and spent. Try as he would, he was forced to leave after a few
moments. In consternation thousands of eyes followed him as he left the stage.

He was driven back to Akron, that afternoon by a friend. As Dr. Bob was
helped into the automobile, he seemed physically very near complete exhaustion.
As they drove the thirty odd miles from Cleveland to Akron, some inner strength
seemed to revive Dr. Bob so that by the time they drove up to his home he was
almost his old self. The man who seemed on the point of collapse only an hour
before, said "Well, if I'm going to be ready to go to Vermont next week, I'd
better be about it."

Shortly after the Conference, he did go to Vermont. Dr. Bob, his son and
his daughter-in-law, drove, in the sedan, to his boyhood home, where he visited
old friends for the last time. . .and worried all the time for fear the
convertible would not be comfortable for Emma and her husband to drive on their
long vacation trip. . ."Should've taken it myself. . ."

Upon his return home, he was admitted into St. Thomas hospital for a minor
operation. . .one of so many that had come during the last years. Then home to
Emma's good cooking and rest.

In November, his doctors found it advisable to perform another of the
minor operations. This time, he went to City Hospital, where in 1910 he had come
as an interne and where later, he and Bill had talked to "the third man." On
Wednesday, November 15, a day after the operation, an old friend called and
spoke to him. "Why, I'm just fine Abercrombie, just fine. . ."

Close to noontime on Thursday, November 16, 1950, he was resting. The
nurse in attendance stood by his bed, watching. . .waiting for any change that
might come. Dr. Bob, M.D., lifted his hand to the light. . .with professional
calm he studied the color. . .with a final confirming glance, he spoke. . ."You
had better call the family. . .this is it. . ."

--so reconciled with his brothers, he placed his gifts upon the alter and
went his way. .



Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@accesstoledo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: shakey1aa
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:37 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] L J Knisely living at 855 Ardmore in 1950?


In the 1950 City Directory of Akron, I see
Dr. R H Smith as owner of 855 Ardmore Ave and
a phone number of UN-2436.

I also have a listing at the address for a
person named L J Knisely.

Was this person a relative of the Smith's or
perhaps a live-in nurse or just a boarder?
Does any one have any knowledge of this person?

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
See you in Niagara Falls NY Sept 11-14 2008






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4869 Phil
Re: Tom Powers and Betty Love Tom Powers and Betty Love 2/11/2008 1:27:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Peter Tippett <petetippett@...> wrote:
>
> Can/would someone clarify for me the role Tom
> Powers and Betty Love played in the writing of
> the 12x12, please?
>
> Thanks,
> Pete Tippett
>
The following information comes out of 'The
Soul of Sponsorship' The Friendship of Fr. Ed
Dowling, S.J. and Bill Wilson in Letters.
-- By Robert Fitzgerald, S.J....Hazelden
Pittman Archives Press... Chapter 9--The
Spiritual Exercises and the Traditions--
Pg.55-56

On May 20, 1952, Bill wrote to Dowling with
a draft copy of the 12 essays on the tradi-
tions...

"We'd very much like your criticisms on the
material enclosed. Do we run across the grain
of your ideas anywhere, do you care for the
writing style and is the structural situation
depicted in conformity with your observation
of AA?"

Bill mentioned he had good help from some
writers, Tom Powers,Betty Love, and Jack
Alexander.

He wanted Dowling's input,"no punches pulled,"
and ended the letter with a request for The
Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius.

Phil M. Denver area AA

0 -1 0 0
4870 arcchi88
Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat 2/13/2008 7:36:00 AM

Thanks for the kind response, I am familiar
with the fact that Father Ralph Pfau started
the retreat there. However, the retreat that
is going on there still is run by Evans Avenue
(I think) of Chicago.

They are apparently celebrating the 50th year
of holding these retreats this summer. I do
not know and have been unable to find any
history on how this retreat was started in
1958.

Of course there is a gap of ten or eleven
years between the start of retreats there
by Father Pfau. Did father Pfau hand it off
to Evans Ave or another group?

I haven't found any information that would
indicate that Father Pfau continued to have
the retreats at Saint Joseph's so far.

Any additional information is greatly
appreciated!

Thanks again,

Tom C.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "arcchi88" <arcchi88@...>
wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone has any history on
> a retreat that is held annually at St. Joseph's
> College in Rensselaer, Indiana.
>
> There have got to be some people who have
> attended in years past who can tell a story
> or two!!!
>
> If you have ever attended this retreat and
> have a story to tell, big or small, please
> pass it on!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tom C.
>
> - - - -

From the moderator, Glenn C.
(South Bend, Indiana):

If the present retreat was started by the
Evans Avenue Group in Chicago, then have
you looked at this?

"Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-
South Bend Axis: The Stories and Memories
of Early Black Leaders Told in Their Own
Words"

http://hindsfoot.org/nblack1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Nblack3.html

That article doesn't mention them having
retreats at Rensselaer, Indiana, but it
might give some background.

John Shaifer lived in Gary, Indiana, but was
connected with the Evans Avenue Group in
Chicago:

http://hindsfoot.org/ngary1js.html
http://hindsfoot.org/ngary2js.html

John went one of Father Ralph Pfau's retreats
every year for at least fifteen years, if my
memory is correct, at Gethsemani Abbey in
Kentucky, and did his fifth step with Father
Pfau. I don't know whether John went to the
retreat in Rensselaer, but I am sure that the
people who organized the Rensselaer retreat
would have known him, if they were from the
Evans Avenue Group.

So there might be a linkage (via that
connection) between Father Ralph's early
retreats and the Evans Avenue retreats.

Evans Avenue is still going strong, by the
way, or at least they were when I visited
there three or four years ago, although
they had moved their fellowship house from
its original location on Evans Avenue in
Chicago. They had a lot of valuable
archival materials there, which possibly
would have the answers to all your questions.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

0 -1 0 0
4871 nats_attitude
They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/13/2008 10:11:00 AM

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

0 -1 0 0
4873 hartsell
RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/14/2008 4:01:00 AM

Not capable of rigorous honesty.

If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for
sociopaths, or considers the term
"Congenital Liar" "born that way", one might
have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's
meaning in use of that phrase. Lest there
be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths",
it is generally understood that they may not
have a conscience, but can be "taught" one.

My old Sponsor might have answered with a
favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are
natural-born liars, they'll climb a tree to
tell a lie when they could stand on the
ground and tell the truth!" but then he also
contended that rigorous practice of and
adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure
that condition.

Sherry C.H.

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

0 -1 0 0
4874 Arthur S
RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/14/2008 9:56:00 AM

I could be way off on this but on face value
there seems to be a high probability that it
contextually means:"They are not at fault;
they seem to have been born that way."

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

0 -1 0 0
4875 dino
Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/14/2008 12:27:00 PM

Was there ever a time in AA history where
certain groups or factions made an effort to
secede en masse?

0 -1 0 0
4876 Bill Lash
RE: AA in Vladivostok AA in Vladivostok 2/12/2008 9:33:00 AM

Is someone going to let Sergey know about
anonymity & that AA is NOT self-help? Thanks.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill




-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of robin_foote
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:18 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA in Vladivostok


Anonymous Alcoholics Will Gather in Vladivostok

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA

VLADIVOSTOK, February 10, vladivostoktimes.com
The self-help society of anonymous alcoholics
of Vladivostok "Welcome" celebrates its 15th
anniversary, the newspaper "Vladivostok"
writes.

The celebration of the anniversary and intro-
ducing the society will be held on Saturday at
noon in the Primorye State Arsenyev museum.

This public association is a part of the World
community of anonymous alcoholics, which was
founded in 1935 in the USA. Welcome members
are trained on the program "12 steps."

Every person can apply with his problem to
this association and get a free advice. In
these years thousands of Primorye residents
have found support. Everyone who came with
his own trouble could see that he is not lone
in this world. The trainings are held not only
with those who are tired of taking alcohol
or drugs, but also with their relatives.

"Unfortunately, not everyone is ready to refuse
of his destructive vices," one of the members
of the group of self-help of anonymous
alcoholics Sergey YAKOVLEV claims. "But it
is never late to do the first step."

http://vladivostoktimes.ru/show.php?id=21451







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4877 corafinch
Re: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/16/2008 9:34:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"nats_attitude" <nats_attitude@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
> the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
> to have been born that way" means in the
> contextual form it was written in the fifth
> chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."
>

It depends on what you mean by context. For
comparison, here is something form an article
on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the
July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it
close in time to the writing of the Big Book.
The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote
an article on AA for Harper's .

"It would be misleading to claim that all
forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or
any other method. Some human beings are so
naturally unequal to the conflicts of living
that, in the light of present knowledge, little
can be done for them except to protect them
from the disturbing issues which cause them to
drink. There are also the extreme cases, the
psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the
obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure
is problematical and is the business of the
psychiatrist and physician alone. For any
layman to attempt to explain such cases would
be dangerous; even the most distinguished
medical scientists still disagree about them.

"By far the greater number of heavy drinkers,
however, belong in a class whose ailment can
be more easily corrected. They are the men
and women--we all know them--in whom the habit
of excess has grown until their health, their
business, their home life, and their peace of
mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the
psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been
successful in healing them, mentions in his
book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem
drinkers." For them there is more than an even
chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of
mental therapy now being practiced by trained
psychologists who, through study and trial,
have brought it to a high level of efficacy."

The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as
a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his
experience "seldom did a child whose parents
maintained an intelligent attitude toward
him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when
Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho-
logists" she included some people who would be
considered lay therapists and who were also
known to the AA pioneers.

Cora

0 -1 0 0
4878 jenny andrews
RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/15/2008 4:29:00 AM

British criminal court judges used to follow
the McNaughton (I think that's how it's spelled)
rule which decreed that some accused were
incapable of entering a plea (guilty or not
guilty) to charges because they were unable
to distinguish between right and wrong
(psychopaths etc). I guess the accused had
to be diagnosed as such by a psychiatrist.

- - - -

From: hartsell@etex.net

Not capable of rigorous honesty.If one looks at the DSM IV criteria for
sociopaths, or considers the term "Congenital Liar" "born that way", one might
have a pretty fair understanding of Bill's meaning in use of that phrase. Lest
there be an outcry to my reference to "sociopaths", it is generally understood
that they may not have a conscience, but can be "taught" one.My old Sponsor
might have answered with a favorite saying of his, "Alcoholics are natural-born
liars, they'll climb a tree to tell a lie when they could stand on the ground
and tell the truth!" but then he alsocontended that rigorous practice of and
adherence to 12 Step Principles would cure that condition.Sherry C.H.

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the phrase "They are not at fault;
they seem to have been born that way" means in the contextual form it was
written in the fifth chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

0 -1 0 0
4879 DudleyDobinson@aol.com
Re: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/14/2008 3:12:00 PM

The English would call that a droll reply.
Nothing beats commons sense. What did Doctor
Bob say about Freudian complexes and looking
for hidden meanings? Keep it simple.
Be gentle to your minds

Dudley

- - - -

I could be way off on this but on face value
there seems to be a high probability that it
contextually means:"They are not at fault;
they seem to have been born that way."

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@bellsouth.net>
(serenitylodge at bellsouth.net)

OH I LOVED THIS ANSWER.

Quite often, I think, many people try to read
between the lines of the Big Book, entirely
missing the obvious message of the little black
marks . . . the actual words. The message of
the book means exactly what those words say.

Perhaps searcching for an "easier softer way"
or at least an excuse? <GRIN>L

In my experience, Alcoholics Annonymous (the
Book) is a very simple approach for a compli-
cated people!

It says what it says. Period. No amount of
interpretation will change that, I think.
Nor does it need to.

Thanks for the good laugh, Arthur.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

- - - -

From: "Murray Eaton" <meaton1287@rogers.com>
(meaton1287 at rogers.com)

I think Arthur S has summed it up concisely.

- - - -

Original Message from: nats_attitude

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
to have been born that way" means in the
contextual form it was written in the fifth
chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."

0 -1 0 0
4880 Tom White
Re: Member introduction and group response Member introduction and group response 2/14/2008 3:49:00 PM

I came in NYC area in 1959. There were no
"Hi, Tom" cries then in that area. I first
bumped into the thing, I think in California
in the late 60s when visiting out there in
the Anaheim area. It was universal when I
got to Texas 20 years ago. And it doesn't
much bother me. Neither does the chanting at
the end, "It works if.. ."

But I admit to being positively annoyed by
people who in a small discussion meeting
insist on repeating, every time they speak,
tic-like, "My name is . . . and I'm an
alcoholic," apparently supposing since they
last talked two minutes ago we had all
forgotten that.

BTW I always use my full name since everybody
did in NYC in 1959. In this as in all else
I defer to the power of the individual group.
There appears to be no way to "fix" all this
from on High.

Tom W. Texas

- - - -

From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Sgt. Bill W. told me that in the late
1940's and early 1950's, people in some AA
groups introduced themselves by saying "my
name is XXXXX" and then giving their sobriety
date. In other AA groups, they said "my name
is XXXXX and I'm an alcoholic."

He said that they did it the first way on Long
Island (in the New York City area) in the
late 1940's, and that, although he certainly
did not know how it was done all over the
country, he had the impression that saying
"I'm an alcoholic" was more midwestern.

Bill also clearly felt that people who went
around worrying all the time about saying
"exactly the right words" were totally
failing to understand the true spirit of
the AA program and the twelve steps, and
would get impatient with people who
fussed about that kind of thing too much.

(Since he was getting a 50% success rate
in his work with alcoholics at Lackland
in the 1950's, he presumably had some good
ideas about what was important and what was
not important.)

I would be interested in knowing if either
version (giving your sobriety date or saying
"I'm an alcoholic") was practiced in the
1930's and early 1940's. And if so, where?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

- - - -

From: "grault" <GRault@yahoo.com>
(GRault at yahoo.com)

I know from a New Orleans old-timer who
sobered up in New York City, that the
"Hi, ---!" response started as early as the
'60s I believe . . . certainly the "I'm
an alcoholic" introduction had long
preceded that. I heard long ago that it
was just a short way of "qualifying" for
being at a closed meeting. But all my
memories of what I've heard about it are
sketchy and very incomplete.

Gerry R.
New Orleans

0 -1 0 0
4881 Phil
Re: Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat Rensselaer, Indiana, AA Retreat 2/14/2008 8:02:00 PM

About 12 Step Retreats: I'm not familiar with
your part of the country. Out west here,
Denver, Seattle, etc ... just look up Jesuit
Retreat House.

Jesuits are the Spiritual Order that Fr Ed
Dowling, Bill W's sponsor was. If you read
Pass It On...Bill's Story and the Story of
AA...You'll read about the first meeting
between Bill and his sponsor in 1940.

Fr. Ed traveled all the way from St. Louis
to New York to see if Bill intentionally
borrowed from the Spiritual Exercises of St
Ignatius (the founder of the Jesuit order)
to form the 12 Step Program of recovery.

Bill did not, but the Program is remarkably
the same as the Exercises. So the 12 step
Program has kind of been swallowed up by
the Jesuits. Almost anywhere you can find
a Jesuit Retreat House, you can find a 12
Step Retreat.

Phil M. Denver area AA

0 -1 0 0
4882 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/14/2008 11:07:00 AM

Didn't Session Mexico, in August of 1986,
comprising 2500 groups, secede from Mexican
GSO? I remember hearing about the Mexican
army confiscating the Big Books that were
printed without the approval of GSO in Mexico
and the Director of Session Mexico was put
in Mexican prison for a year. The GSO books
were costing too much for the average Mexican
AA member to afford so the thousand or so
groups in Mexico City broke away and printed
Big Books that were affordable. My under-
standing is that Mexican GSO had the approval
of GSO in New York City To do so. Perhaps an
AAHL past delegate, during or about that
time period, can elaborate on this sad day
in AA history.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, Pa
Going to Niagara Falls NY in Sept.

- - - -

From: "Phil" <ez4me2phil@yahoo.com>
(ez4me2phil at yahoo.com)

It is happening now in the Denver area. They
call themselves "Celebrate Recovery,"
"Overcomers Outreach," and "Recovery in
Christ," etc.... They are usually Protestants
that have a problem with the pluralism of AA,
i.e. "your own conception of God," Ebby's
message to Bill.

I find them in almost every meeting in Denver.
They prey on the fallen away Catholics and
the agnostics mostly. They try and sell them-
selves as modern versions of the Oxford Groups.
Forgetting AA history and all the things that
went down in Cleveland when AA broke away from
the Oxford groups' radical Protestant evan-
gelization.

If you end up at one of their meetings they
use things like the Recovery Bible. It is a
watered-down Protestant Bible with a lot of
pychobabble on how to self-interpret the Bible
in a recovery context.

The meetings are filled with lots of AA bashing
and talk of saving those poor fools in AA.
Things like if we only knew Christ the way
they do we wouldn't need a recovery program.

- - - -

From the moderator:

On Mexico, please, do a search on our message
board for the word "Mexico." We had literally
dozens of messages on this topic almost
exactly a year ago. See for example Messages
4168, 4161, 4157, 4154, 4150, 4149, 4132,
4131, 4115, 4114, 4093, etc.

I think everything useful that can be said
on this topic has already been said. But
Mike is right, this would be an example of
a major internal AA schism.

We should also remember that groups like
All Addictions Anonymous were essentially
groups which "seceded" from AA in the sense
of groups which got together to form their
own national organizations which were
separate from the New York GSO-centered
organization:

http://www.alladdictionsanonymous.com/

And if you look at the list of twelve step
groups at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Twelve-Step_groups

Did these groups "secede" from AA? In part,
this is a matter of how you define the word
secede.

And how about Moderation Management's
nine step program?

http://www.moderation.org/

And Life Ring Secular Recovery?

http://www.unhooked.com/index.htm

It depends in part on how you define the
term "secede," since they were definitely
started by people who were unhappy with
at least some of the AA program, and
thought they had a better way of setting
up groups for recovery from alcoholism.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
4883 terry walton
Re: Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/15/2008 10:24:00 AM

Yes, it happens daily with a resentment and
a coffee pot.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"dino" <lauraoshea@...> wrote:
>
> Was there ever a time in AA history where
> certain groups or factions made an effort to
> secede en masse?

0 -1 0 0
4884 jlobdell54
Psychiatrists and the McNaghten Rule Psychiatrists and the McNaghten Rule 2/18/2008 8:05:00 AM

It would not be the evidence of a psychiatrist
that would be dispositive as to whether a
defendant was sane. Determination of sanity
under McNaghten is, so far as I know, the
province of the jury deciding matters of fact,
and there were no psychiatrists nor any science
of psychiatry when McNaghten was first
established.

Of course psychiatric testimony would be heard
-- is heard -- but only as a part of the
process of determining whether the defendant
knew right from wrong, on which psychiatrists
may perhaps not be the most expert witnesses.

0 -1 0 0
4885 mrpetesplace
History info History info 2/17/2008 10:35:00 AM

Locally we are having a workshop and I was
asked to participate. The theme is "Grassroots
of AA". So in preparation I'm trying to locate
a few items I saw in the past but can't seem
to find them anymore.

An AA Bulletin from November 14, 1940

Typed documents that I believed to be from NY
with meetings listed in various cities and
states including from North Carolina. These
were dated December 1941 and September 1942
I believe.

These were posted on a site called
archivesinternational.org at one time and
I had them bookmarked but the site is down
now.

The other item I'm looking for is a recording
from the mid 1940's. It is a video from a
"March of Times" series I believe. I've seen
several 'clips' but never the whole thing, I
figured it might be about 15-20 minutes long
but might be way off. I am hoping to find
these documents and video in by the first
week of April for our afternoon workshop.

Thank you in advance for any help.

Respectfully, Peter F.

<peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)

0 -1 0 0
4886 Jon Markle
Re: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/16/2008 10:30:00 PM

This one phrase from the Big Book has been a
bulwark for me.

I work as a clinician on a specialized team
which treats people who suffer from chronic,
cyclical, severe, persistent mental illness
and who have a long history of substance abuse
and/or addictions. Most of the patients I see
have been kicked out of AA meetings because
they cannot adapt to the expectations of the
groups they attempt. They are "constitution-
ally incapable" by most AA member's standards
and are not welcome at meetings.

By the same token, they also have been kicked
out of clinics and hospitals . . . in other
words, they are those that most of society has
given up on. They are homeless and hopeless
when they come to us.

I am happy to report that we have seen huge
successes, miracles, in people who have other-
wise been cast aside as hopeless. And we have
attributed part of that to networking with a
couple of local AA meetings over the years.
Many of my clients have been able to become
active and productively engaged in meetings
and home groups now.

If I can find even one little shred of
"honesty" -- no matter about what -- I know
that the miracle of recovery can happen.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82


On Feb 16, 2008, at 9:34 AM, corafinch wrote:

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
> "nats_attitude" <nats_attitude@...> wrote:
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone can tell me what
>> the phrase "They are not at fault; they seem
>> to have been born that way" means in the
>> contextual form it was written in the fifth
>> chapter of the Big Book, "How It Works."
>>
>
> It depends on what you mean by context. For
> comparison, here is something form an article
> on alcoholism treatment which appeared in the
> July 1938 issue of Harper's. That places it
> close in time to the writing of the Big Book.
> The author, Genevieve Parkhurst, later wrote
> an article on AA for Harper's .
>
> "It would be misleading to claim that all
> forms of alcoholism may be healed by this or
> any other method. Some human beings are so
> naturally unequal to the conflicts of living
> that, in the light of present knowledge, little
> can be done for them except to protect them
> from the disturbing issues which cause them to
> drink. There are also the extreme cases, the
> psychotics whom alcohol has removed into the
> obscure recesses of the abnormal. Their cure
> is problematical and is the business of the
> psychiatrist and physician alone. For any
> layman to attempt to explain such cases would
> be dangerous; even the most distinguished
> medical scientists still disagree about them.
>
> "By far the greater number of heavy drinkers,
> however, belong in a class whose ailment can
> be more easily corrected. They are the men
> and women--we all know them--in whom the habit
> of excess has grown until their health, their
> business, their home life, and their peace of
> mind are in jeopardy. They are those whom the
> psychologist, Charles H. Durfee, who has been
> successful in healing them, mentions in his
> book To Drink or Not To Drink as "problem
> drinkers." For them there is more than an even
> chance of cure in a comparatively new kind of
> mental therapy now being practiced by trained
> psychologists who, through study and trial,
> have brought it to a high level of efficacy."
>
> The article later quotes Richard R. Peabody as
> a pathfinder in the field, who said that in his
> experience "seldom did a child whose parents
> maintained an intelligent attitude toward
> him mature into a drunkard." Evidently when
> Parkhurst used the expression "trained psycho-
> logists" she included some people who would be
> considered lay therapists and who were also
> known to the AA pioneers.
>
> Cora
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
4887 jenny andrews
RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/17/2008 10:48:00 AM

This article, headed "Rarely Not Never",
appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share",
the monthly magazine published by the UK
AA General Service Board:-

"Bristol Fashion" was a newsletter founded and
edited by members of the Bristol Newcomers AA
group (in Gloucestershire, England). This
extract is reprinted with grateful acknowledg-
ment.

"Bristol Fashion" is indebted to Nell Wing,
Bill W's non-alcoholic secretary and AA's
first archivist, for supplying observations
of our co-founder when questioned as to the
word "Rarely" in chapter five, "How It Works",
of the Big Book.

Excerpt from (Bill's) first letter: "Respecting
my use of the word 'rarely', I think it was
chosen because it did not express an absolute
state of affairs, such as 'never' does. Anyhow
we are certainly stuck with the word 'rarely'.
My few efforts to change the wording of the AA
book have always come to naught - the protests
are always too many."

In another letter Bill wrote: "Concerning your
comment about the use of the word 'rarely' in
chapter five of the Big Book. My recollection
is that we did give this considerable thought
at the time of writing. I think the main reason
for the use of the word 'rarely' was to avoid
anything that would look like a claim to a
100 per cent result. Assuming of course that
an alcoholic is sane enough and willing enough,
there can be a perfect score ... But since
willingness and sanity are such elusive and
fluctuating values, we simply didn't like to
be too positive. The medical profession would
jump right down our throats. Then, too, we have
seen people who apparently have tried their
very best, and then failed. Not because of
unwillingness, but perhaps by reason of
physical tension or some undisclosed quirk,
not known to them or anyone else. Neither did
we want to over-encourage relatives and friends
in the supposition that their dear ones could
surely get well in AA if only they were willing.
I think that's why we chose that word. I
remember thinking about it quite a lot. Maybe
some of these same reasons would apply to the
present conditions. Anyhow, I know this: the
text of the AA book is so frozen in the minds
of tens of thousands of AA's that even the
slightest change creates an uproar."

Nell Wing and Frank M., her successor as
archivist at GSO, New York, visited Britain
at "Bristol Fashion's" invitation in the
1990s. The newsletter ceased publication a
few years ago...

0 -1 0 0
4888 Sober186@aol.com
Re: Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/16/2008 6:06:00 PM

Yes, I have heard several such reports. One
is contained in A.A. History, Hank Parkhurst
-- New York's A.A.#2. Unfortunately Hank went
back out and on a long bender.

Then, according to this history, "Soon Hank
went to Ohio and began spreading vicious tales
attacking Bill Wilson. Bill was grateful that
Dr. Bob and Anne Smith disbelieved his stories,
but many, especially Clarence Snyder and
Henrietta Seiberling (who had never liked Bill)
did believe Hank's tales. In Cleveland, some
started calling for Bill's exclusion from
Alcoholics Anonymous and even accused him of
financial trickery.

In New York, they began hearing about several
Cleveland groups that wanted to secede and
break off all connection with Bill Wilson's
brand of AA."

Source: http://www.barefootsworld.net/aany2hankp.html

While the word "secede" is difficult to find
in any literature, what happened between the
Akron contingent and those who formed a new
group in Cleveland, certainly has all the
earmarks of secession.

"A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact
existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the
Cleveland meeting which first used the name
Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the
book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the
first documented meeting which used the name
Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from
the Oxford Group.

According to the records of the Cleveland
Central Committee's Recording Statistician,
Norman E. (which were compiled in the middle
of June 1942) the following took place:

On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron
meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G.
group. The location of the group was 2345
Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland,
Ohio. The sponsors of the group were;
Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D.,
Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J.,
and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group
was Clarence Snyder .... The first A.A.
meeting in the world was not uneventful.
According to Clarence, the entire group from
Akron showed up the next night and tried to
"discourage" the Cleveland meeting from
happening. Discourage was a very mild term,
according to Clarence; and he used it
sarcastically. He said: "The whole group
descended upon us and tried to break up our
meeting. One guy was gonna whip me. I want you
to know that this was all done in pure
Christian love. A.A. started in riots.
It rose in riots."

Source: http://silkworth.net/chs/chs05.html

Love and serve

Jim L.

0 -1 0 0
4889 Tom Hickcox
Re: RE: They seem to have been born that way They seem to have been born that way 2/18/2008 5:39:00 PM

At 09:48 2/17/2008 , jenny andrews wrote:


>This article, headed "Rarely Not Never",
>appeared in the October 2007 issue of "Share",
>the monthly magazine published by the UK
>AA General Service Board:-
>

I would note that the same material was covered in an article in the
December 1978, Grapevine, titled "Rarely--or Never?"

It is available online at the Grapevine site. [Subscription required]

<http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/article.php?id=79179&tb=2ZGE9ZHQlM0ExOTc4XzEy
JnBnPTQ=>

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4890 Glenn Chesnut
God and Spirituality God and Spirituality 2/18/2008 5:51:00 PM

Glenn F. Chesnut, "God and Spirituality:
Philosophical Essays," January 2008, see
http://hindsfoot.org/philos.html

Full text of the book is now available on
line at http://hindsfoot.org/kperson1.html

0 -1 0 0
4891 Tom Hickcox
Re: Groups looking to secede Groups looking to secede 2/18/2008 9:45:00 PM

At 22:06 2/16/2008 , Sober186@aol.com wrote:
>
>On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron
>meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G.
>group. The location of the group was 2345
>Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland,
>Ohio. The sponsors of the group were;
>Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D.,
>Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J.,
>and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group
>was Clarence Snyder ....

All these names but Lloyd T are consistent
with names on the First 226 Members of the
Akron Group and have Cleveland addresses:

Al G Albert Goldrich
Chas J Charles Johns
Lee L Lee Loria
Geo. J. McD George McDermott
Dr. Harry N Dr. Harry Nash
Vaughn P Vaughn Phelps
Lloyd T not listed
Clarence Snyder

For me it helps establish the veracity of the list.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4892 David LeBlanc
Dr.''s Opinion Dr.''s Opinion 2/19/2008 12:01:00 AM

In the Dr's opinion
in the Big book he
describes a patient
that accepted the ideas
in this book and
returned a year later a
changed man. In the
original letter the Dr.
identified the patient
as Bill W. Does anyone
know who made this
change and when?
David

0 -1 0 0
4893 Jay Lawyer
RE: Dr.''s Opinion Dr.''s Opinion 2/19/2008 1:44:00 PM

If I am not mistaken in this particular passage
the Doctor is/was talking about Henry Parkhurst.

Jay Lawyer <ejlawyer@midtel.net>

- - - -

Message 4892 from "David LeBlanc"
<Inkman3@webtv.net> (Inkman3 at webtv.net)

In the Dr's opinion in the Big book he
describes a patient that accepted the ideas
in this book and returned a year later a
changed man. In the original letter the Dr.
identified the patient as Bill W. Does anyone
know who made this change and when?
David

- - - -

From the moderator:

Yeah, this would have to be Hank Parkhurst.

I think David is getting Bill Wilson (who
is talked about on pages xxv and xxvii)
confused with the two people who appear
on page xxxi: Hank Parkhurst and Fitz Mayo.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


THE DOCTOR'S OPINION (began on page 1 in the
first edition of the Big Book, begins on
page xxv in the present fourth edition)

(p. xxv-xxxii) the well known doctor was Dr.
William D. Silkworth, who worked at Towns
Hospital in New York City.

(p. xxv) the patient he regarded as hopeless
was Bill Wilson.

(p. xxvi) "We believe and so so suggested a
few years ago" in an article in the Lancet
in 1937.

(p. xxvii) "many years' experience" meant
nine years that Dr. Silkworth had been there.

(p. xxvii) "one of the leading contributors to
this book" referred to Bill Wilson.

(p. xxxi) the man brought in to be treated
for chronic alcoholism was Hank Parkhurst.
His story "The Unbeliever" appeared in the
1st ed.

(p. xxxi) the man who had hidden in a barn
was Fitz Mayo. His story in the BB is "Our
Southern Friend."

0 -1 0 0
4894 Roger K
Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/19/2008 5:21:00 PM

I have a group member who is looking for a
reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody
know if Bill W. talked about emotional,
financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA with
a reference on dealing with same?

Roger K

0 -1 0 0
4895 Tom Hickcox
Second Edition Big Book Codes Second Edition Big Book Codes 2/19/2008 9:20:00 PM

A new friend piqued my interest in the codes
that appear on the back flaps of the Second
Edition Big Book dust jackets [DJ].

I did some investigating and put together the
following incomplete table:


Code A.A. Membership,
Front Flap
1st
2nd
3rd 250k
4th 300k
5th 300k
6th 50M663 (C) 300k
7th 50M365 (C) 350k
8th 50M666 (C) 300k
9th 60M11/67 (C) 350K
10th 60M4/69 (C) 400k
11th 65M9/70 (C) 475k
12th 40M3/71 (C) 475k
13th 100M1/72 (C) 500k
14th 100M2/73 (C) 575k
15th 650k
16th

I have been told that there are no codes for
the first five and last two.

It has been suggested that the number preceding
the M in the code is the number in thousands
of books printed in that printing.

The numbers were gleaned from DJs in my collec-
tion plus info from friends. Unfortunately,
many of my DJs are facsimiles and don't have
the codes.

Is it accurate that just the 6th thru the
14th have codes?

Would someone provide the membership numbers
for the three printings missing them? Are
the other numbers correct?

Answers will be appreciated.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4896 Peter Tippett
Fulton Oursler Fulton Oursler 2/21/2008 5:49:00 PM

Can anybody give me a "Reader's Digest" (no pun
intended) version of how Fulton Ourlser became
such an advocate of early AA and any influences
he may have had on AA?

Thanks,
Pete Tippett

0 -1 0 0
4897 Gary Becktell
Citadel Citadel 2/21/2008 4:28:00 AM

Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the
Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?


"The word got out that there were a bunch of
fools who wouldn't give you anything for food
or a bed, but they would give you some change
if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us,
and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It
so happened that the first one we got sober
was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and
they thought we were wonderful."

0 -1 0 0
4898 johnlaurance1
Re: Member introduction and group response Member introduction and group response 2/20/2008 6:21:00 PM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"Michael G." <gildell@...> wrote:
>
> I can speak to the situation in the greater
> Boston area. Prior to the summer of 1976,
> individuals seldom would respond to an
> introduction in most groups.

In central Pennsylvania there was no response
to the introduction until the very early '80's.

Now, Overeaters Anonymous was another matter.
They were not only "Hi"-ing back, they were
requiring that members introduce themselves
over and over, complete with the return "Hi's"
every time they opened their mouths. I found
it really excessive and unnecessary.

> The Young
> People's international of 1976 in Philadelphia
> seemed to serve as a real "jump start" for
> the practice. Within a year of that conference,
> it was not uncommon to hear "Hi xxx" in
> response to an introduction at many groups
> in the Boston area.

Thank you. I didn't know that. In Pennsylvania
we were told it was "the California Style". We
were supposedly doing things the way they were
done in California.

> As I recall, when I was first sober in Chicago,
> and later in central Illinois in '73 - '75 no
> one would respond to an introduction by saying
> hi.

Ditto in Pennsylvania.

> Q. Can you describe something that's changed
> since you've been in A.A.?

There was no "ninety in ninety", since in those
days there weren't meetings every day.

No special things were done for newcomers. My
first meeting was step 6. I sat and listened.

By the early '80's if a newcomer came in, we'd
discuss step one. If a newcomer was doing
ninety in ninety and going to a meeting every
day, anyone else going to that same meeting
would be doing step one over and over and over.

Johnny L.

0 -1 0 0
4899 Nicole
Re:Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/20/2008 6:44:00 PM

Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory.
If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then
we are sure to drink...this is our experience.

Nicole

0 -1 0 0
4900 Sober186@aol.com
Re: Dr.''s Opinion Dr.''s Opinion 2/20/2008 6:16:00 PM

David:

An "Original Manuscript" of the Big Book is
sold in the gift shop at Dr. Bob's house in
Akron. The publication sold claims to be
"an exact reproduction of Clarence Snyder's"
(The Home Brewmeister's) copy of the manuscript
used to compile the Big Book.

By the way, in this Doctor's Opinion, there are
no names used. Even the doctor's name is not
used.

The doctor writes: "About four years ago,
one of the leading contributors to this book
came under our care in this hospital"......etc.
(Page 2, Paragraph 6.)

That is as close as it comes to naming any
names.

The doctor also describes what happened with a
man brought to the hospital who had been living
in a barn, and the says the man became "sold"
on the ideas in this book and did not have a
drink for three years. But again, there is no
name used. (Page 6, paragraph 6.)

Love and Serve

Jim L.

0 -1 0 0
4901 James Blair
Re: Citadel Citadel 2/22/2008 4:05:00 PM

> Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the
> Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?

Salvation Army building

Jim Blair

0 -1 0 0
4902 lqd8rflp@aol.com
RE: 2nd Edition Printings 2nd Edition Printings 2/21/2008 12:28:00 PM

Here is a complete listing of 2nd Edition
printings that came from Frank Mauser some
years ago.

PRINTING DATE COPIES MEMBERS GROUPS
1st 7/55 40,000 150,000 6,000
2nd 5/57 40,000 150,000 6,000
3rd 1959 40,000 250,000 7,000
4th 1960 40,000 300,000 8,000
5th 4/62 40,000 300,000 9,000
6th 6/63 50,000 300,000 10,000
7th 3/65 50,000 350,000 11,000
8th 6/66 50,000 350,000 12,000
9th 11/67 60,000 350,000 12,000
10th 4/69 60,000 425,000 14,000
11th 9/70 65,000 475,000 15,000
12th 3/71 40,000 475,000 15,000
13th 1/72 100,000 500,000 16,000
14th 2/73 100,000 575,000 18,000
15th 1973 150,000 575,000 18,000
16th 1974 150,000 725,000 22,000


Regards,
John

JOHN HAGER
CELL-317-504-7397
E-MAIL-LQD8RFLP@AOL.COM

- - - -

From: lester gother <lgother@optonline.net>
(lgother at optonline.net)

Tom
This is what I have to add from my collection The code for the 4th
printing is as follows: 50m-663(c) There is no code on the first 3
printings as they were published by A.A. Publishing Inc., and the 4th
printing was the first to be published by A.A. World Services, Inc. The
9th printing I have states 50m-11/67 (c), The rest I believe to be
correct. Hope this helps Tom.

Service
Lester Gother
Northern New Jersey

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Tommy, I have a complete collection of?Second editions?with original DJ's and
your list of Third through Fifteenth matches mine. The First & Second both give
membership at 150,000 whilst the Sixteenth shows 725,000.
One point of interest: the Third printing had an error in stating that it was
for the THIRD edition. Consequently the majority was sold with no DJ's and One
with is a collector's item and very expensive.

In fellowship - Dudley

0 -1 0 0
4903 Marsha Finley
RE: Citadel Citadel 3/21/2008 4:57:00 PM

The Citadel is a military college in South
Carolina. It is also one the colleges con-
sidered an "Ivy league" of the South.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_(Military_College)

- - - -

-----Original Message-----

Below is a paragraph from "Dr. Bob And the
Good Old-timers." What is the "Citadel"?

"The word got out that there were a bunch of
fools who wouldn't give you anything for food
or a bed, but they would give you some change
if you wanted a drink. They began to trust us,
and we got three fellows in the Citadel. It
so happened that the first one we got sober
was the son of a Salvation Army couple, and
they thought we were wonderful."

- - - -

From the moderator:

The above passage is from page 248 in Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers. It is describing
events in Cleveland, Ohio (not Charlestown,
South Carolina) in 1942.

It is describing how the early Cleveland AA's
started standing outside the Salvation Army
and giving people a nickle or a dime to buy
a drink or some cigarettes. They figured
they had to get people's trust first.

They finally got three men to trust them
enough to let them bring them into the Citadel
(the Salvation Army building), where the
good Salvation Army people could start
carrying out the sobering up process on
them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_Army_corps

"A Salvation Army corps is a church and place
of worship in The Salvation Army. In keeping
with Salvationist convention in using military
terminology, corps are casually known as
barracks. Many corps are additionally called
temples or citadels.

I was able to find a web page for the Akron,
Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel (with a photo of
the building) at:

http://www.use.salvationarmy.org/use/www_use_neo.nsf/ce952dea4507ee7780256cf4005\
d2254/36a9553c9ae1b69280256e3900674c2b?OpenDocument


But I was unable to find a photo of the
Cleveland, Ohio, Salvation Army Citadel. Maybe
somebody in Cleveland could tell us what its
address was back in 1942.

Anyway, they weren't taking these down and
out winos and bums and enrolling them in an
elite military college. They were talking
them into the Salvation Army building where
the Salvation Army folks could start
detoxing them.

Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana

0 -1 0 0
4904 Bill Lash
Re: Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/22/2008 7:12:00 PM

That's actually page 70.


-----Original Message-----

Yes, page 69 which covers our sexual inventory.
If an alcoholic continues to harm others, then
we are sure to drink...this is our experience.

Nicole

0 -1 0 0
4905 jenny andrews
RE: Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/23/2008 12:57:00 PM

Dr Bob wrote "... we naturally have had our
share of those who fail to measure up to
certain obvious standards of conduct. They
have included schemers for personal gain,
petty swindlers and confidence men, crooks
of various kinds, and other human fallibles.
Relatively, their number has been small ...
yet they have been a problem and not an easy
one. They have caused many an AA to stop
thinking and working contructively for a time."

(Grapevine, September 1948, reprinted in
"Best of the Grapevine, volume 2).

- - - -

Original message:

I have a group member who is looking for a
reference to "Predators in AA". Does anybody
know if Bill W. talked about emotional,
financial, sexual, etc. predators in AA
with a reference on dealing with same?

Roger K

0 -1 0 0
4906 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Bill W. on predators in AA Bill W. on predators in AA 2/23/2008 4:56:00 PM

There were people, believe it or not, whose
morals were bad and the respectable alcoholics
of that time shook their heads and said,
"surely these immoral people are going to
render us asunder." Little Red Riding Hood and
the bad wolves began to abound. Ah yes, could
our society last?

(Transcribed from tape. Chicago, Illinois,
February 1951).

I am sure that there are more references, but
I cannot find them at the moment.

- - - -

From the moderator: there is more about this
in Messages 50, 3562, 3568, and 3575.

0 -1 0 0
4907 Bill Lash
RE: Fulton Oursler Fulton Oursler 2/24/2008 8:52:00 AM

I don't know if this is helpful toward what
you are looking for but...


High Praise for the Charm
of Recovering Alcoholics

There are times when I wish I were an alcoholic.
I mean I wish I were a member of Alcoholics
Anonymous. The reason is that I consider the
AA people the most charming in the world.

Such is my considered opinion. As a journalist,
it has been my privilege to meet many people
who are considered charming. I number among my
friends stars and lesser lights on stage and
cinema; writers are my daily diet; I know
ladies and gentlemen of both political parties;
I have been entertained in the White House;
I've broken bread with kings, ambassadors and
ministers; and I say that I would prefer an
evening with my AA friends to any person I've
indicated.

I asked myself why I considered so charming
these alcoholic caterpillars who have found
their butterfly wings in AA. There are more
reasons than one, but I can name a few. The
AA people are what they are, and they are
what they were, because they are sensitive,
imaginative, possessed of a sense of humor,
an awareness of the universal truth. They are
sensitive, which means they are hurt easily,
and that helped them become alcoholics. But
when they found their restoration they are as
sensitive as ever; responsive to the beauty
and the truth and eager about the intangible
glories of this life. That makes them
charming companions.

They are possessed of a sense of universal
truth that is often new in their heart. This
fact that this at-one moment with God's universe
had never been awakened within them is the
reason they drink. They have found a power
greater than themselves, which they diligently
serve. And that gives them a charm that never
was elsewhere on the land and sea; it makes
you know that God is charming, because the AA
people reflect his mercy and forgiveness.

They are imaginative, and that helped make them
alcoholics. Some of them drank to flog their
imaginations onto greater efforts. Others
guzzled only to block out unendurable visions
that arose in their imaginations. But when
they found their restorations, their imagina-
tion is responsive to new incantations and
their talk abounds with color and might, and
that makes them charming companions, too.

They are possessed a sense of humor. Even in
their cups they have known to be damnably
funny. Often it was being forced to take
seriously the little and mean things of life
that made them seek their escape in the bottle.
But when they found their restoration, their
sense of humor finds a blessed freedom and they
are able to laugh at themselves, the very height
of self-conquest. Go to their meetings and
listen to their laughter. At what are they
laughing? At ghoulish memories over which
weaker souls would cringe in useless remorse.
And that makes them wonderful people to be with
by candlelight.

by Fulton Oursler

(Fulton Oursler was a magazine editor, religious
author, and Hollywood screenwriter, and was an
early Oxford Group member and friend to AA. He
passed away in the year 1952. His official
relationship with AA is as follows: Sept. 30,
1939, the very popular weekly Liberty Magazine,
headed by Fulton Oursler, carried a piece
titled "Alcoholics and God" by Morris Markey
(who was influenced to write the article by
Charles Towns). It generated about 800
inquiries from around the nation. Oursler
(author of The Greatest Story Ever Told) became
good friends with Bill W and later served as a
Trustee and member of the Grapevine editorial
board. In Oct. 1949, Dr. William D. Silkworth
and Fulton Oursler joined the Alcoholic
Foundation Board.)

0 -1 0 0
4908 Alex H.
RE: Sybil C. & Tex Sybil C. & Tex 2/25/2008 2:09:00 PM

> HI .. I have a good friend in Sybils daughter.
> I have been sending her copies of the informa-
> tion in here about her mother.

FYI, Sybil's husband, Bob C., is still alive.
My buddy, Matt M., tells me Bob's health has
been failing. Bob is still sponsoring Matt so
to speak. It seems like Matt is helping Bob
more than Bob is helping Matt though.

They were an amazing couple as Matt tells it.
Matt is somewhat amazing himself but don't
tell him I said so. :-)

Alex H.

0 -1 0 0
4909 John Lee
Re: RE: Citadel Citadel 2/25/2008 8:45:00 PM

Glenn,

No such place as Charlestown, South Carolina.
The historic city which hosts The Citadel is
Charleston.

john lee

- - - -

Sorry, y'all.

Glenn

0 -1 0 0
4910 wsmaugham21
Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks 2/24/2008 12:07:00 PM

Hello fellow Drunks!

Anyone out there have information on the photo
of the AA folks wearing Lone Ranger Masks, and
a web site where I might be able to get a copy
of it?

Love and Service, Dirk

0 -1 0 0
4911 Jonathan Rose
Re: Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks Photograph of AA people wearing Lone Ranger masks 2/25/2008 9:28:00 PM

From the moderator: there are apparently at
least two such photos, one showing some AA
members in Dayton, Ohio, and another showing
some AA members in Madison, Wisconsin. And
there was also apparently a third case where
masks like this were worn, for a television
show in Detroit, Michigan, in the 1950's.

- - - -

From: "jbuckrose" <jbuckrose1@mac.com>
(jbuckrose1 at mac.com)

Here's what you might be looking for. The web
source is:

http://www.texasdistrict5.com/history-in-photos.htm

The photo is about halfway down the webpage,
with the caption underneath:

"Dayton OH Members, 1942

Members wore masks: to protect their anonymity,
members of the Dayton, Ohio, AA chapter donned
masks while posing for the press in 1942."

in service,
Buck R.

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker"
<rstonebraker212@insightbb.com>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

One source is the "Archives Scrapbook - 1939
to 1942." There is a large picture of
Madison, Wisconsin, AAs wearing masks. This
huge, rather pricey, scrapbook ($75) makes
a wonderful display feature.

GSO Service material #M42, on page 8.

Bob S.

PS - I have seen a similar picture from Dayton,
Ohio.

- - - -

From: "JOHN WIKELIUS" <nov85@graceba.net>
(nov85 at graceba.net)

GSO sells two different scrapbooks of very old
news releases and I believe that you will find
those pictures in there.

- - - -

From: David Jones <jonesd926@aol.com>
(jonesd926 at aol.com)

I have this from the site silkworth.net ...
alas no photo.

*VI. Mr. Hope TV Show*

In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called
"MR. HOPE" in which AA members appeared wearing
Lone Ranger masks who told their stories. The
masks were worn to protect their identities.
The program aired at noon on Sundays.

One of our current members (1998), Bill B., was
on the show a couple of times along with the
Police Commissioner and some Judges.

God bless
Dave

- - - -

From: Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

http://www.hindsfoot.org/detr0.html on early
Detroit AA history:

RADIO PROGRAM

On March 5, 1945, Time magazine reported that
Detroit's WWJ radio station was running broad-
casts by AA members in a radio program called
"The Glass Crutch":

Alcoholics on the Air
Time, March 5, 1945

One of Detroit's citizens stepped up to the
microphone one night last week and told how he
had "hit bottom" as an alcoholic. To underline
his confession, some of the more melodramatic
and sordid aspects of his past were dramatized.
Then he told of his regeneration. Summed up
the Announcer: "Alcoholism is a disease ...
an obsession ... an allergy ... " The man who
"hit bottom" was the first in a parade of
anonymous Detroiters who will describe their
alcoholic pasts over WWJ every Saturday
(11:15-11:30 p.m. E.W.T.). The series is the
first sustained air flight of the famed orga-
nization called "Alcoholics Anonymous" (Time,
Oct. 23, 1944). Detroit AA's give credit for
the broadcast project to 62-year-old William
Edmund Scripps, big boss of the Detroit News
and WWJ. He was so impressed by AA's reform-
ation of a drunkard friend that he decided to
do what he could to boost the organization's
Detroit membership (now nearly 400).

THE MR. HOPE TV SHOW

In the 1950's WWJ telecast a TV program called
"Mr. Hope," aired at noon on Sundays, in which
AA members appeared wearing Lone Ranger masks
and told their stories. The masks were worn to
protect their identities.

0 -1 0 0
4912 grault
Introduction as alcoholic and group response Introduction as alcoholic and group response 2/28/2008 6:11:00 AM

Thanks all. Responses vary widely, depending
on area of the country. In some areas the
identification "I'm xxx and I'm an alcoholic"
didn't arise until the 1960s or even more
recently, and the response "Hi, xxx" came later,
in the 70s or 80s. At the other extreme,
apparently in Quebec both the intro and the
group's response were universal at meetings as
early as the early 1950s.

Gerry R.
New Orleans

0 -1 0 0
4914 George Ewing
Seeking volunteers to help with AA history search engine Seeking volunteers to help with AA history search engine 3/7/2008 10:21:00 AM

I've been a lurking member of this list for a couple
of years now. This is my first post, I think, in that
time.

I'm the webmaster of malverncenter.org, an AA
clubhouse in Malvern, PA. We are in the Philadelphia
suburbs and are blessed with a wide range of AA
meetings of all kinds. Our site gets a lot of traffic,
mostly from people looking for meeting times, as well
as phone numbers of treatment facilities and the like.

Because of this traffic, I've been trying to add
content to the site that is of a general nature about
AA, above and beyond meeting times. I've added a
Google Custom Search Engine that is dedicated to the
history of AA. Think of it as an invitation to search
terms specific to AA history.

Google allows me to solicit volunteers to contribute
to the search engine by adding relevant sites to its
results, and by labeling certain results with
appropriate comments. The volunteer is like a curator
of the search results.

If anyone is interested in contributing to the custom
search on our site, please email me off list at
facilities at malverncenter.org. Thank in advance for
any volunteers.

George

George Ewing <gedit123@yahoo.com> (gedit123 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4915 pbers_11
Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/10/2008 4:36:00 PM

I am looking for actual resources of the use
of the Little Red book in early years. I have
seen on the Web that "the AA foundation appoved
of its use" and I am trying to find resources
to support this.

Thank you

Yours in Service

Paula D

0 -1 0 0
4916 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/11/2008 4:12:00 PM

The Little Red Book was published by "the
Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins
(an important early figure in Minneapolis
A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April
14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for
publishing it themselves. They were fellow
members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.

A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at
the New York A.A. headquarters (then called
the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,
1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,
gives their full approval to the idea of
Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.
pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis
A.A. people had written themselves:

"Dear Barry:
. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the
new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a
host of others are all local projects. We do
not actually approve or disapprove of these
local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-
tion feels each Group is entitled to write up
its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its
own merits. All of them have good points and
very few have caused any controversy. But as
in all things of a local nature, we keep hands
off, either pro or con. I think there must be
at least 25 local pamphlets now being used
and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some
good points. I think it is up to each indivi-
dual Group whether it wants to use and buy
these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out.
Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"

When The Little Red Book did come out, its use
in A.A. meetings had the full approval both
of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.
Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as
we have already noted, but in addition, Jack
H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending
large numbers of copies of The Little Red
Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the
country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the
New York A.A. office was regularly ordering
quantities of The Little Red Book for resale
in New York.

Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the
Minneapolis book in November 1950:

"The Little Red Book does fill a definite
need and has wide circulation. Therefore,
its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a
definite place for such a book. Someday I
may try to write an introduction book myself
which I hope might complement favorably with
The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation
we are not policemen; we're a service and
AAs are free to read any book they choose."
____________________

SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html

0 -1 0 0
4917 pbers_11
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/11/2008 4:26:00 PM

In what resources have you found this data?

- - - -

Please read all of the article that was cited:

http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html

Down towards the bottom it says:

"Bill Pittman, in the introduction to the
Hazelden Anniversary Edition (the reprinting
in 1996 of the 1949 edition of The Little Red
Book), gave the text of Bobby Burger's letter."

Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) contacted the
New York AA Archives and discovered that Bill
Pittman had added one phrase to the letter
without indicating that he had added it:

"as is Nicollet’s 'An Interpretation
of the Twelve Steps'"

The version given on the Hindsfoot site is
the letter as Jack H. found it to be in the
New York AA Archives.

There is more about the Pittman Anniversary
Edition at:

http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html
____________________

The other sources of this information:

Jack H. got Ed Webster's papers from Ed's
daughter, so much of the other information
comes from letters and billing information
and other documents in those papers: i.e.,
records of repeated orders from the New York
AA office for another box of copies of The
Little Red Book. Jack also has copies of
various editions of The Little Red Book with
handwritten suggestions from Dr. Bob for
rewording sentences or adding additional
comments. Jack H. also made a detailed
study of the Minneapolis AA archives, with
the help of a very good AA archivist there.

The text of the Bill W. letter about The
Little Red Book is also given in the Pittman
Anniversary Edition.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn
Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:
>
> The Little Red Book was published by "the
> Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins
> (an important early figure in Minneapolis
> A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April
> 14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for
> publishing it themselves. They were fellow
> members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.
>
> A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at
> the New York A.A. headquarters (then called
> the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,
> 1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,
> gives their full approval to the idea of
> Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.
> pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis
> A.A. people had written themselves:
>
> "Dear Barry:
> . . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the
> new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a
> host of others are all local projects. We do
> not actually approve or disapprove of these
> local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-
> tion feels each Group is entitled to write up
> its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its
> own merits. All of them have good points and
> very few have caused any controversy. But as
> in all things of a local nature, we keep hands
> off, either pro or con. I think there must be
> at least 25 local pamphlets now being used
> and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some
> good points. I think it is up to each indivi-
> dual Group whether it wants to use and buy
> these pamphlets from the Group that puts
> them out.
> Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"
>
> When The Little Red Book did come out, its use
> in A.A. meetings had the full approval both
> of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.
> Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as
> we have already noted, but in addition, Jack
> H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed
> Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending
> large numbers of copies of The Little Red
> Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the
> country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed
> Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the
> New York A.A. office was regularly ordering
> quantities of The Little Red Book for resale
> in New York.
>
> Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the
> Minneapolis book in November 1950:
>
> "The Little Red Book does fill a definite
> need and has wide circulation. Therefore,
> its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a
> definite place for such a book. Someday I
> may try to write an introduction book myself
> which I hope might complement favorably with
> The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation
> we are not policemen; we're a service and
> AAs are free to read any book they choose."
> ____________________
>
> SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html
>

0 -1 0 0
4918 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/11/2008 6:47:00 PM

There is an inconsistency here. Margaret R
Burger (AA's second National Secretary)
signed herself as "Bobbie" not "Bobby."

If there is a letter from her signed "Bobby"
it might not be genuine. I have a substantial
set of correspondence between her and Esther
E of Dallas. They are all signed "Bobbie."

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Arthur,

We need somebody to check the New York AA
Archives on BOTH of the letters which
Bill Pittman reproduced in the 1996
Hazelden Anniversary Edition of The Little
Red Book.

Bill Pittman said on the copyright page
that this was the:

"50th Anniversary edition 1996
(from 1946 edition published by
Coll-Webb Company, Minneapolis)"

but Jack H. (Scottsdale, Arizona) showed
that it was a reproduction of the 1949
edition, NOT the 1946 edition as Bill
Pittman claimed.

I have verified this by comparison with
a photocopy of the 1946 edition which
I was sent. See:

http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html

Jack H. told me over the telephone that
he had checked with one of the archivists
at the New York AA Archives (also over the
telephone) and had discovered that Bill
Pittman had also inserted a phrase into
the Burger letter that was not in the
original:

"as is Nicollet's 'An Interpretation
of the Twelve Steps.'"

But the New York archivist reading the
original letter over the phone to Jack H.
would have pronounced "Bobby" and "Bobbie"
identically, so there would have been no
reason for Jack to have caught that.

Anyway, we KNOW that Bill Pittman was very
careless indeed in his preparation of
that anniversary edition.

The Foreword which Bill wrote runs from
page vii to page xviii.

The Burger letter is reproduced on pages
xiii-xiv. The Bill Wilson letter is on
pages xvi-xvii.

Again, someone with access to the New York
AA Archives needs to check the original
letters to make sure that we have accurate
copies to work from.

More than that, we need a good AA historian
to do a book on Ed Webster, somebody who
will take the time and care to check all
the documents out, and do a good scholarly
job.

At this point, I am committed to finishing
my book on Richmond Walker, the author of
the Twenty-Four book, and would not be able
to take on that additional task.

But Ed Webster was very important to the
fellowship, and very much deserves to have
a book written about him.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)


-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:12 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers group
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Little Red Book

The Little Red Book was published by "the
Coll-Webb Co.," which meant that Barry Collins
(an important early figure in Minneapolis
A.A., who had gotten sober in A.A. on April
14, 1941) and Ed Webster were paying for
publishing it themselves. They were fellow
members of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis.

A letter from Bobby Burger, the secretary at
the New York A.A. headquarters (then called
the Alcoholic Foundation), dated November 11,
1944, written to Barry Collins in Minneapolis,
gives their full approval to the idea of
Minneapolis publishing and using an A.A.
pamphlet or booklet which the Minneapolis
A.A. people had written themselves:

"Dear Barry:
. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the
new Cleveland 'Sponsorship' pamphlet and a
host of others are all local projects. We do
not actually approve or disapprove of these
local pieces; by that I mean that the Founda-
tion feels each Group is entitled to write up
its own 'can opener' and let it stand on its
own merits. All of them have good points and
very few have caused any controversy. But as
in all things of a local nature, we keep hands
off, either pro or con. I think there must be
at least 25 local pamphlets now being used
and I've yet to see one that hasn't had some
good points. I think it is up to each indivi-
dual Group whether it wants to use and buy
these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out.
Sincerely, Bobby (Margaret R. Burger)"

When The Little Red Book did come out, its use
in A.A. meetings had the full approval both
of Dr. Bob and the New York A.A. office. Dr.
Bob actually helped Ed Webster write it, as
we have already noted, but in addition, Jack
H. (Scottsdale AZ) has discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that Dr. Bob was sending
large numbers of copies of The Little Red
Book to A.A. groups in other parts of the
country. Jack H. has also discovered from Ed
Webster's papers that in the late 1940's, the
New York A.A. office was regularly ordering
quantities of The Little Red Book for resale
in New York.

Bill W. wrote Barry Collins about the
Minneapolis book in November 1950:

"The Little Red Book does fill a definite
need and has wide circulation. Therefore,
its usefulness is unquestioned. AA has a
definite place for such a book. Someday I
may try to write an introduction book myself
which I hope might complement favorably with
The Little Red Book. Here at the Foundation
we are not policemen; we're a service and
AAs are free to read any book they choose."
____________________

SOURCE: http://hindsfoot.org/ed01.html





Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
4919 Lynn Sawyer
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/11/2008 8:17:00 PM

Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>
(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)

Hi.

Lynn Sawyer here, from Sacramento, California
now, but originally from Minneapolis,
Minnesota area. I got sober on the Little
Red Book and other A.A. literature.

I didn't realize the Little Red Book was a
local [Minneapolis] publication. Thanks
again for your wealth of information for us
alkies.

Lynn

- - - -

From: "Don Cobb" <don@doncobb.com>
(don at doncobb.com)

I remember when some of our local AAers were
ADAMANT about 15 years ago, that we were NOT
to support "a private company" by buying it.
It was frowned on big time and in fact,
people were outright confrontational about
it, openly and angrily so.

So it's interesting to me to see that Dr. Bob
approved it.

Don C.

- - - -

From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says
that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow
transferred the rights to The Little Red
Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book
stayed in print.

Looking at the copyright pages of old
copies of The Little Red Book, it looks
like the transfer could have taken place
a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but
Hazelden has always been careless about
the dates they put down for the copyright
date of their editions of early AA books.

But as you note, in the early years, The
Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis
by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under
the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in
that city.

Glenn C.

0 -1 0 0
4920 Joseph Tandl
Background on Concept 4 Background on Concept 4 3/12/2008 11:18:00 PM

Friends,

I have been asked to write a short article
(i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on
Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's
archive revealed only the illustrated brochure
on the 12 concepts.

I would be grateful for pointers to informa-
tion about the history of and reason for
this particular concept and anything that
would make writing about it informative and
memorable.

Thanks, Joseph
Canberra, Australia

0 -1 0 0
4921 Dolores
Re: Background on Concept 4 Background on Concept 4 3/13/2008 5:27:00 PM

Hi, I found 2 Grapevine articles on the
Concepts. One is from January, 1995 and the
article is called "The mystery of the secret
12 (Concepts)" and the other one from January
1993, " Does your group use the Concepts?"

Nell Wings book "Glad to have been there"
also has a Chapter on the Concepts.

I have been very interested in the Concepts
too and Find them very important for service
work. The Concepts carry Bill W. signature.

Yours in AA

Dolores - Archives Continetal EuropeanRegion

0 -1 0 0
4922 Lance
Dr. Percy Poliak Dr. Percy Poliak 3/15/2008 4:04:00 PM

Hi group!

Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak?

He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big
Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism,"
page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!)

Thanks, and God's blessings!

Lance, from colorful Colorado!

- - - -

From the moderator: for additional background,
see

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Reference\
s.pdf


page 43: staff member world renowned hospital
was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital,
New York

page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I
have heard," unknown.

Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist
was with Bellevue Hospital New York then
San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed
with A.A., gave A.A. group full support
(Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88)

0 -1 0 0
4923 Bruce A. Johanson
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/12/2008 7:50:00 PM

I also found God in Minneapolis (though I
heard he is throughout the world hee hee)
with the Little Red Book many years ago.

That and Stools and Bottles is mostly what we
used for literature while Big Books gathered
dust on the shelves. That is sometimes seen
as rather blasphemous these days.

What amazed me was finding out about "The
Nicollet Group" long after I had moved from
Minneapolis. I and a few friends used to
visit different groups once a week never
hearing a word about this group. I have
heard they are listed now with the Minne-
apolis Intergroup.

Bruce

- - - -

NOTE: In Minneapolis, Minnesota, Ed Webster
published "The Little Red Book" in 1946 under
the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed
also wrote "Stools and Bottles" (1955),
"Barroom Reveries" (1958), and "Our Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities" (in 1970, just a
year before his death). In early A.A., Ed was
one of the four most widely read A.A. authors.

- - - -

FROM: "bob" <bsdds@comcast.net>
(bsdds at comcast.net)

It is amazing to me the passion which so many
grasp onto the idea of "conference approved
literature." In my early sobriety I was living
in the "pink cloud" for many years and it has
only been in my retirement that I have become
fascinated with the history and the HUMANNESS
of these men and women.

Learning of the travails of the founders and
the huge part that people like Henry Parkhurst
played makes this thing so much more real. I
could never go to a movie based on this site
and enjoy it as much as I do reading and
"listening" to y'alls discussions.

Thanks for the Warmth.

bob s
goin' on 32

0 -1 0 0
4924 Tom Hickcox
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/12/2008 8:59:00 PM

>
> >From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
>(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
>
>Jack H. (who has Ed Webster's papers) says
>that after Ed's death in 1971, his widow
>transferred the rights to The Little Red
>Book to Hazelden, to make sure the book
>stayed in print.
>
>Looking at the copyright pages of old
>copies of The Little Red Book, it looks
>like the transfer could have taken place
>a little earlier (i.e. before 1971), but
>Hazelden has always been careless about
>the dates they put down for the copyright
>date of their editions of early AA books.
>
>But as you note, in the early years, The
>Little Red Book was published in Minneapolis
>by Ed Webster and Barry Collins, under
>the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in
>that city.
>
>Glenn C.
>

The first Hazelden publication of the Little
Red Book was some time in the 1960s and was
as best I can tell the little volume with
rounded corners. As Glenn points out,
Hazelden was not good at putting useful
information on printing and copyrights in
these early books.

This printing has a 1957 copyright by
Coll-Webb but has the Hazelden logo and
address [Central City, Minn 55012] on the
full title page. The use of a zip code
indicates the date was 1963 or later.

There are seven different small format LRBs
with the 1957 copyright. I believe the
rounded corner one was the first as Hazelden
started publishing two other books around the
same time and the first ones of these series
had rounded corners, Richmond Walker's 24
Hours a Day book and Stools and Bottles. No
copyrights are indicated in the 24 Hour book
and there are at least two printings w/o zip
codes and four with zips. The rounded corner
S&B has a 1955 copyright held by Coll-Webb.

The Hazelden logo started appearing in the
larger format, Coll-Webb printings of the
LRB in the form of a sticker on the full
title page starting with the twenty-second
printing in 1968, so it may be that the LRB
was turned over to Hazelden prior to Webster's
death in 1971, not that it makes any difference
to anyone but we collectors. The 23rd thru
25th printings had the Hazelden logo printed
on the full title page.

ISBNs were used in some of the latter LRBs
but not in the rounded corner 24 Hour books
that I know of. I believe ISBNs started in
1968.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
4925 Bill Lash
RE: Background on Concept 4 Background on Concept 4 3/15/2008 8:59:00 AM

Joseph Tandl (Canberra, Australia) wrote:
>
> I have been asked to write a short article
> (i.e. 300 words) for an AA Area newsletter on
> Concept 4. Googling and searching this list's
> archive revealed only the illustrated brochure
> on the 12 concepts.
>
> I would be grateful for pointers to informa-
> tion about the history of and reason for
> this particular concept and anything that
> would make writing about it informative and
> memorable.

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Please go to http://www.justloveaudio.com
and click on "free resources". There is
a lot of info on the 12 Concepts & the 12
Traditions. It also has a large amount of
info/exercises/guides on all of the 12 Steps
too. Peace.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@verizon.net>
(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)

Dear friend,

All of the Concepts are in the AA Service
Manual, which you can download from the AA
website at

http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=101.

Happy reading!

Debi Ubernosky (service crazy alkie!)
DOS: 11-25-1990
by God's grace and because AA works!

Wait, my apologies, I should have referenced
the service material that is on Australia's
AA website:
http://www.aa.org.au/members/index.php?nav=mb

Here's the link to Australia's AA Service Manual:
http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_service_manual.php?nav=mb

Here's a diagram of your service structure:
http://www.aa.org.au/materials/materials_national_structure.php

Your local DCM or Area Delegate would be a
wonderful resource to get some personal input
on the Concepts.

Enjoy!

Debi

- - - -

From: Hugh Hyatt <hughhyatt@bluehen.udel.edu>
(hughhyatt at bluehen.udel.edu)

I've found the A.A. Grapevine Digital Archive
to be great too for finding information on
such topics: http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/

- - - -

From: "Lee Nickerson" <snowlily@megalink.net>

I have been active in Service at the Area Level and Central
Office for most of my sobriety. Especially at Central Office, I found
that a knowledge of the Concepts was an essential tool. Invaluable,
is a better way to say it. They are certainly a lesson in our history
and are as relevant today as when they were written. Bill's struggles
to have them become a part of us is also a fascinating story.

The Concepts have guided us over many threatening issues and
controversies since their creation. As I read through them I am ever
reminded of Bill's great visionary gift and where that gift came
from. Whenever I am asked to speak about them I never fail to remind
the listeners to read Bill's Essay on Leadership: to me, one of the
finest guides to being an AA leader (or a leader anywhere) that has
ever been written. It is so simple, so direct and so useable.

The Concepts can be used anywhere in the AA service structure,
from the Group to the Conference. The idea that we all have a voice,
the premise that we just must make decisions, the guidance that we
can't expect someone to take a responsibility in AA without
concurrently handing them a certain authority - all these things are
applicable at any level of Alcoholics Anonymous. A thorough knowledge
of the Concepts has given me the precious gift of being able to
survive and appreciate some of the volatile and controversial
decision made at the General Service Office, the Conference, and even
at my Home Group. It is my belief that if all of us had a first-hand
grasp of them, our grasp on our history and our AA Service life would
be easier and more fruitful.

0 -1 0 0
4926 kcb007_99
Lee T''s Foreword to Chuck C., "A New Pair of Glasses" Lee T''s Foreword to Chuck C., "A New Pair of Glasses" 3/16/2008 1:08:00 AM

What can anyone tell me about "Lee T." who
wrote a Foreword to "A New Pair of Glasses"
by Chuck C.?

Any background information you have about
"Lee T." and his writing of a Foreword in
Chuck C.'s book would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

- - - -

From the moderator: I assume you have seen
Message 139 from Nancy Olson

"Chuck Chamberlain's Testimony Before a U.S.
Senate Subcommittee, 1969"

Chuck Chamberlain: was born in 1902, and got
sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a
book called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which
is a transcript of a retreat he gave for
alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written
by Clancy I. of California. It can be
purchased through New-Look Publishing Co.,
1960 Fairchild, Irvine, California 92715.
His son [Richard] became a famous actor.
Chuck died in 1984.

0 -1 0 0
4927 James Blair
Bill W''s Proposal For 12 Concepts For World Service Bill W''s Proposal For 12 Concepts For World Service 3/15/2008 4:17:00 PM

Proposal by Bill W. For Twelve Concepts
For World Service

10th General Service Conference – 1960

This proposal, delivered by Bill W. at the closing of the 10th General Service
Conference is of great historical significance as it was the first time that
Bill had spoken to the Fellowship on the subject of the Twelve Concepts.

The original transcript has been retyped for clarity and has been verified
against the voice recording.

-------------------------------------------

The last of the sand in the hourglass of our time together is about to run its
course. And you have asked me, as of old, to conclude this conference, our
tenth.

I always approach this hour with mixed feelings. As time has past, each year
succeeding itself, I have found increasing gratitude beyond measure, because of
the increasing sureness that A.A. is safe at last for God, so long as he may
wish this society to endure.

So I stand here among you and feel as you do a sense of security and gratitude
such as we have never known before. There is not a little regret, too, that the
other side of the coin -— that we cannot turn back the clock and renew these
hours. Soon they will become a part of our history.

The three legacies of A.A. -- recovery, unity and service -- in a sense
represent three utter impossibilities, impossibilities that we know became
possible, and possibilities that now have borne this unbelievable fruit. Old
Fitzmayo, one of the early A.A.”s and I visited the Surgeon General of the
United States in the third year of this society, told him of our beginnings. He
was a gentle man, Dr. Lawrence Kolb, since become a great friend of A.A., and he
said: ”I wish you well. Even the sobriety of such a few is almost a miracle. The
government knows that this is one of the greatest health problems we have, one
of the greatest moral problems, one of the greatest spiritual problems. But we
here have considered recovery of alcoholics so impossible that we have given up
and have instead concluded that rehabilitation of narcotic addicts would be the
easier job to tackle.”

Such was the devastating impossibility of our situation.

Now, what had been brought to bear upon this impossibility that it has become
possible? First, the Grace of Him who presides over all of us. Next, the cruel
lash of John Barleycorn who said, “This you must do, or die.” Next, the
intervention of God through friends, at first a few, and now legion, who opened
to us, who in the early days were uncommitted, the whole field of human ideas,
morality and religion, from which we could choose.

These have been the wellsprings of the forces and ideas and emotions and spirit
which were first fused into our Twelve Steps for recovery. And some of us got
well. But no sooner had a few got sober then the old forces began to come into
play. In us rather frail people, they were fearsome: the old forces, the drives,
money, acclaim, prestige.

Would these tear us apart? Besides, we came from every walk of life. Early, we
had begun to be a cross section of all men and women, all differently
conditioned, all so different and yet happily so alike in our kinship of
suffering. Could we hold in unity? To those few who remain who lived in those
earlier times when the Traditions were being forged in the school of hard
experience on its thousands of anvils, we had our very, very dark moments.

It was sure recovery was in sight, but how could there be recovery for many? Or
how could recovery endure if we were to fall into controversy and so into
dissolution and decay? Well, the spirit of the Twelve Steps, which has brought
us release, from one of the grimmest obsessions known -- obviously, this spirit
and these principles of retaining Grace had to be the fundamentals of our unity.
But in order to become fundamental to our unity, these principles had to be
spelled out as they applied to the most prominent and the most grievous of our
problems.

So, out of experience, the need to apply the spirit of our steps to our lives of
working and living together, these were the forces that generated the Traditions
of Alcoholics Anonymous.

But, we had to have more than cohesion. Even for survival, we had to carry this
message. We had to function. In fact, that had become evident in the Twelve
Steps themselves for the last one enjoins us to carry the message. But just how
would we carry this message? How would we communicate, we few, with those
myriad’s who still didn’t know? And how would this communication be handled? And
how could we do these things, how could we authorize these things in such a way
that in this new hot focus of effort and ego we were not again to be shattered
by the forces that had once ruined our lives?

This was the problem of the Third Legacy. From the vital Twelfth Step call right
up through our society to its culmination today. And, again, many of us said:
This can’t be done. It’s all very well for Bill and Bob and a few friends to set
up a Board of Trustees and to provide us with some literature, and look after
our public relations, and do all of those chores for us we can’t do for
ourselves. This is fine, but we can’t go any further than that. This is a job
for our elders. This is a job for our parents. In this direction only can there
be simplicity and security.

And then we came to the day when it was seen that the parents were both fallible
and perishable (although this seems to be a token they are not). And Dr. Bob’s
hour struck. And we suddenly realized that this ganglion, this vital nerve
center of World Service, would lose its sensation the day the communication
between an increasingly unknown Board of Trustees and you was broken. Fresh
links would have to be forged. And at that time many of us said: This is
impossible. This is too hard. Even in transacting the simplest business,
providing the simplest of services, raising the minimum amounts of money, these
excitements to us, in this society so bent on survival have been almost too much
locally. Look at our club brawls. My God, if we have elections countrywide, and
Delegates come down here, and look at the complexity -- thousands of group
representatives, hundreds of committeemen, scores of Delegates -— My God, when
these descend on our parents, the Trustees, what is going to happen then? It
won’t be simplicity; it can’t be. Our experience has spelled it out.

But there was the imperative, the must. And why was there an imperative? Because
we had better have some confusion, we had better have some politicking, than to
have an utter collapse of this center. That was the alternative. And that was
the uncertain and tenuous ground on which this Conference was called into being.

I venture, in the minds of many, sometimes in mine, the Conference could be
symbolized by a great prayer and a faint hope. This was the state of affairs in
1945 to 1950. And then came the day that some of us went up to Boston to watch
an Assembly elect by two thirds vote or lot a Delegate. And prior to the
Assembly, I consulted all the local politicos and those very wise Irishmen in
Boston said, we’re gonna make your prediction Bill, you know us temperamentally,
but we’re going to say that this thing is going to work. And it was the biggest
piece of news and one of the mightiest assurances that I had up to this time
that there could be any survival for these services.

Well, work it has, and we have survived another impossibility. Not only have we
survived the impossibility, we have so far transcended it that I think that
there can be no return in future years to the old uncertainties, come what
perils there may.

Now, as we have seen in this quick review, the spirit of the Twelve Steps was
applied in specific terms to our problems, to living, to working together. This
developed the Traditions. In turn, the Traditions were applied to this problem
of functioning at world levels in harmony and in unity.

And something which had seemed to grow like Topsy took on an increasing
coherence. And through the process of trial and error, refinements began to be
made until the day of the great radical change. Our question here in the old
days was: Is the group conscience for Trustees and for founders? Or are they to
be the parents of Alcoholics Anonymous forever? There is something a little
repugnant --you know, They got it through us, why can’t we go on telling them?

So the great problem, could the group conscience function at world levels? Well,
it can and it does. Today we are still in this process of definition and of
refinement in this matter of functioning. Unlike the Twelve Steps and the Twelve
Traditions which no doubt will be undisturbed from here out, there will always
be room in the functional area for refinements, improvements, adaptations. For
God’s sake, let us never freeze these things. On the other hand, let us look at
yesterday and today, at our experience. Now, just as it was vital to codify in
Twelve Steps the spiritual side of our program, to codify in twelve traditional
principles the forces and ideas that would make for unity, and discourage
disunity, so may it now be necessary to codify, those principles and
relationships upon which our world service function rests, from the group right
up through.

This is what I like to call structuring. People often say, What do you mean by
structuring? What use is it? Why don’t we just get together and do these things?
Well, structure at this level means just what structure means in the Twelve
Steps and in the Twelve Traditions. It is a stated set of principles and
relationships by which we may understand each other, the tasks to be done and
what the principles are for doing them. Therefore, why shouldn’t we take the
broad expanse of the Traditions and use their principles to spell out our
special needs in relationships in this area of function for world service,
indeed, at long last, I trust for all services whatever character?

Well, we’ve been in the process of doing this and two or three years ago it
occurred to me that I should perhaps take another stab --not at another batch of
twelve principles or points, God forbid, but at trying to organize the ideas and
relationships that already exist so as to present them in an easily understood
manner.

As you know the Third Legacy Manual is a manual that largely tells us how; it is
mostly a thing of mere description and of procedure. So I have cooked up in a
very tentative way something which we might call Twelve Concepts for World
Service. This has been a three-year job. I found the material, because of its
ramifications, exceedingly hard to organize. But I have made a stab at it and
the Concepts, which are really bundles of related principles, are on paper and
underneath each is a descriptive article. And I have eleven of the articles and
perhaps will soon wind up the Twelfth.

Now, to give you an idea of what’s cooking, what I’ve been driving at, I’ll
venture to bore you with two or three paragraphs of the introduction to this
thing.

“The Concepts to be discussed in the following pages are primarily an
interpretation of A.A.’s world service structure. They spell out the traditional
practices and the Conference charter principles that relate the component parts
of our world structure into a working whole. Our Third Legacy manual is largely
a document of procedure. Up to now the Manual tells us how to operate our
service structure. But there is considerable lack of detailed information which
would tell us why the structure has developed as it has and why its working
parts are related together in the fashion that our Conference and General
Service Board charters provide.

“These Twelve Concepts therefore represent an attempt to put on paper the why of
our service structure in such a fashion that the highly valuable experience of
the past and the conclusions that we have drawn from it cannot be lost.

“These Concepts are no attempt to freeze our operation against needed change.
They only describe the present situation, the forces and principles that have
molded it. It is to be remembered that in most respects the Conference charter
can be readily amended. This interpretation of the past and present can,
however, have a high value for the future. Every oncoming generation of service
workers will be eager to change and improve our structure and operations. This
is good. No doubt change will be needed. Perhaps unforeseen flaws will emerge.
These will have to be remedied.

But along with this very constructive outlook, there will be bound to be still
another, a destructive one. We shall always be tempted to throw out the baby
with the bath water. We shall suffer the illusion that change, any plausible
change, will necessarily represent progress. When so animated, we may carelessly
cast aside the hard won lessons of early experience and so fall back into many
of the great errors of the past.

Hence, a prime purpose of these Twelve Concepts is to hold the experience and
lessons of the early days constantly before us. This should reduce the chance of
hasty and unnecessary change. And if alterations are made that happen to work
out badly, then it is hoped that these Twelve Concepts will make a point of safe
return.”

Now, quickly, what are they?

Well, the first two deal with: ultimate responsibility and authority for world
services belongs to the A.A. group. That is to say, that’s the A.A. conscience.

The next one deals with the necessity for delegates authority. And perhaps you
haven’t thought of it, but when you re-read Tradition Two, you will see that the
group conscience represents a final and ultimate authority and that the trusted
servant is the delegated authority from the groups in which the servant is
trusted to do the kinds of things for the groups they can’t do for themselves.
So, how that got that way, respecting world services: ultimate authority,
delegated authority is here spelled out.

Then there comes in the next essay this all questioned importance of leadership,
this all important question of what anyway is a trusted servant. Is this gent or
gal a messenger, a housemaid -- or is he to be really trusted? And if so, how is
he going to know how much he can be trusted? And what is going to be your
understanding of it when you hand him the job? Now, these problems are legion.
The extent to which this trust is to be spelled out and applied to each
particular condition has to have some means of interpretation, doesn’t it? So I
have suggested here that, throughout our services, we create what might be
called the principle of decision -— and the root of this principle is trust. The
principle of decision, which says that any executive, committee, board, the
Conference itself, within the state or customary scope of their several duties,
should be able to say what questions they will dispose of themselves —- and
which they will pass on to the next higher authority for guidance, direction,
consultation and whatnot.

This spells out and defines, and makes an automatic means of defining throughout
our structure at all times, what the trust is that any servant could expect. You
say this is dangerous? I don’t think so. It simply means that you are not, out
of your ultimate authority as groups, to be constantly giving a guy directions
who you’ve already trusted to think for himself. Now, if he thinks badly, you
can sack him. But trust him first. That is the big thing.

Now, then, there is another traditional principle, the source of another essay
here called the principle of participation. Our whole lives have been wrecked,
often from childhood, because we have not been participants. There had been too
much of the parental thing, too much of the wrong kind of the parental thing, we
always wanted to belong, we always wanted to participate; and there is going to
be a constant tendency, which we must always forefend against, and that is to
place in our service structure any group, A.A. as a whole, the Conference, the
Board of Trustees, committees, executives -- to place any of these people in
absolutely unqualified authority, one over the other. This is an institutional,
a military, set-up —- and God knows we drunks have rejected institutions and
this kind of authority, for our purpose, haven’t we?

So, therefore, how, as a practical matter, are we going to express this
participation. Right here in this conference it’s burned in; in Article XII
you’ll see this statement in the Conference Charter: nobody is to be set in
utter authority over anybody else. How do we prevent this?

The Trustees here, and the headquarters people here, are in a great minority
over you people. You have the ultimate authority over us. And you say, well
these folks are nicely incorporated, and we ain’t; and they have the dough
legally, so have we got it? Sure, you got it. You can go home and shut the dough
off, can’t you? You’ve got the ultimate authority but -- we’ve got some
delegated authority. Now when you get in this Conference, you find that the
Trustees, and the Directors and the staffs have votes.

And many of you say, why is it; we represent the groups; why the hell shouldn’t
we tell these people? Why should they utter one yip while we’re doing it? Oh,
we’ll let ‘em yip, but not vote. Well, you see, right there we get from the
institutional idea to the corporate idea. And in the corporate business world,
there is participation in these levels. Can you imagine -how much stock would
you buy in General Motors if you knew the president and half the board of
directors couldn’t get into a meeting because they were on the payroll? Or could
just come in and listen to the out-of-town directors? You’d want these people’s
opinions registered. And they can’t really belong unless they vote. This we have
found out by the hardest kind of experience. So therefore, the essay here on
participation deals with the principle that any A.A. servant in any top echelon
of service, regardless of whether they’re paid, unpaid, volunteer or what, shall
be entitled to reasonable voting privileges in accordance with their
responsibility.

And you good politicos are going to say, but these people here hold a balance of
power. Well, we qualified that in one way. We’ll take the balance of power away
from them when it comes to qualifications for their own jobs or voting in
approval of their own actions. But the bulk of the work of this Conference has
to do with plans and policy for the future. So supposing that among you
Delegates there is a split. And supposing these people come in and vote, which,
by the way, they seldom do as a bloc, and they swing it one way or the other on
matters of future policy and planning; well, after all, why shouldn’t they? Are
they any less competent than the rest of us? Of course not. Besides these
technical considerations, there is this deep need in us to belong, to
participate. And you can only participate on the basis of equality -- and one
token of this is voting equality. At first blush, you won’t like the idea. But
you’ll have a chance to think about it.

One more idea: There came to this country some hundred years ago a French Baron
whose family and himself had been wracked by the French revolution. De
Toqueville. And he was a worshipful admirer of democracy. And in those days
democracy seemed to be mostly expressed in people’s minds by votes of simple
majorities. And he was a worshipful admirer of the spirit of democracy as
expressed by the power of a majority to govern. But, said de Toqueville, a
majority can be ignorant, it can be brutal, it can be tyrannous -- and we have
seen it. Therefore, unless you most carefully protect a minority, large or
small, make sure that minority opinions are voiced, make sure that minorities
have unusual rights, you’re democracy is never going to work and its spirit will
die. This was de Toqueville’s prediction and, considering today’s times, is it
strange that he is not widely read now?

That is why in this Conference we try to get a unanimous consent while we can;
this is why we say the Conference can mandate the Board of Trustees on a
two-thirds vote. But we have said more here. We have said that any Delegate, any
Trustee, any staff member, any service director, -- any board, committee or
whatever --- that wherever there is a minority, it shall always be the right of
this minority to file a minority report so that their views are held up clearly.
And if in the opinion of any such minority, even a minority of one, if the
majority is about to hastily or angrily do something which could be to the
detriment of Alcoholics Anonymous, the serious detriment, it is not only their
right to file a minority appeal, it is their duty.

So, like de Toqueville, neither you nor I want either the tyranny or the
majority, nor the tyranny of the small minority. And steps have been taken here
to balance up these relations.

Now, some of the other things cover topics like this, I touched on this: The
Conference acknowledges the primary administrative responsibility of the
Trustees. We have talked about electing trustees and yet primarily they are a
body of administrators. In a sense, it’s an executive body, isn’t it? Look at
any form of government. (Understand we’re not a form of government, but you have
to pay attention to these forms). The President of the United States is the only
elected executive; all the rest are appointive, aren’t they, subject to
confirmation by, which is the system we got here -- and this goes into that.

And then there is this question taken up in another essay. How can these legal
rights of the Trustees, which haven’t been changed one jot or title by the
appearance of this Conference, if they’ve got the legal right to hang on to your
money and do as they dammed please, what’s going to stop them? Well, the answer
is: Nobody has a vested interest. They have to be volunteers always. They are
amenable to the spirit of this Conference and its power and its prestige --- and
if they are not, there is a provision here by which they can be reorganized;
there is a provision in here by which they can be censored - and you can always
go home and shut off the money spigot.

So, the traditional power of this Conference and the groups is actually superior
to the legal power of the Trustees. That is the balance. But the trustees as a
minority some day, should this Conference get very angry and unreasonable, say:
Boys, we’re going to veto you for the time being, we ain’t gonna do this ---
even as the President of the United States has the veto, so will these fellows.
You go home and think this over. We won’t go along. And if you give them a vote
of no confidence, they can appeal to the groups. These are the balances, see;
this is interpretive, this has all been implicit in our structure but we’re
trying to spell it out.

Well, there are others —- There’s a whole section on leadership, service
leadership from top to bottom, what it’s composed of. In A.A. we wash between
great extremes. On the one side, we’ve got the infallible leader who never makes
any mistakes --- and let us do just as he says. On the other side we have a
concept of leadership which goes and says: What shall I do? What shall I do?
Tell me, what time do —- I’m just a humble servant, not a trusted one, just a
humble one. The hell with either. Leadership in practice works in between -- and
we spell that out. And so on.

This will give you an idea of what’s cooking in the Twelve Concepts for World
Service. The last one which I haven’t done deals with the Conference -- Article
XII of the Conference charter. And you who recall it know that this is several
things. First of all, it’s the substance of the contract the groups made with
the Board of Trustees at the time of St. Louis. And this contract decrees that
this body shall never be a government.

It decrees that we shall be prudent financially. It decrees that we shall be
keepers of the A.A. Tradition —- and so on -- so that it is in part a spiritual
document and in part a contract. And, God willing, because it is both spiritual
and contract, let it be for all time of our existence a sanctified contract.

My own days of active service, like the sands in our last hourglass, are running
out. And this is good. We know that all families have to have parents and we
know that the great unwisdom of all parenthood is to try to remain the parents
of infants in adolescence and keep people in this state forever. We know that
when the parents have done their bit, and said their pieces, and have nursed the
family along, that there comes the point that the parents must say: Now, you go
out and try your wings. You haven’t grown up and we haven’t grown up, but you
have come to the age of responsibility where, with the tools we are leaving you,
you must try to grow up, to grow in God’s image and likeness.

So my feeling is not that I’m withdrawing because I’m tired. My feeling is that
I would like to be another kind of parent, a fellow on the sidelines. If there
is some breach in these walls which we have erected, some unseen flaw or defect,
of course all of us oldsters are going to pitch in for the repairs. But this
business of functioning in the here and now, that is for the new generation.

May God bless Alcoholics Anonymous forever. And I offer a prayer that the
destiny of this society will ever be safe in the hearts of its membership and in
the conscience of its trusted servants. You are the heirs. As I said at the
opening the future belongs to you.

0 -1 0 0
4928 Charlie C
Little Red Book - current Hazelden edit. Little Red Book - current Hazelden edit. 3/17/2008 4:58:00 PM

Am curious to read the current Hazelden edition
of The Little Red Book after reading the recent
posts on it.

My question: is the "nonsexist" language edition
from Hazelden more or less the original text,
or is it significantly altered?

Charlie C.
IM, Yahoo = route20guy

"For what do we live, but to make sport for
our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"
Pride & Prejudice

0 -1 0 0
4929 Ron Roizen
quote from "Alcohol and Public Opinion" (1942) quote from "Alcohol and Public Opinion" (1942) 3/18/2008 9:22:00 AM

Good Morning!

I just now joined this group in order to ask
the following question:

In 1942, a man named Dwight Anderson published
what I believe to be one of the most important
articles in the history of the modern
alcoholism movement. It was titled "Alcohol
and Public Opinion," and published in the
Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol
(3:376-392, 1942). Near the end of this
article, Anderson discussed the prevailing
apathy and sense of impotence with regard to
alcoholism current among contemporary
physicians in the U.S. At one point, he
tells an anecdote about the misinterpretation
of slips among physicians (pp. 386-387):

"Too frequently the therapist merely regards
this [i.e., a slip] as evidence of the
impossibility of cure, and gives up. A
psychiatrist in a municipal hospital so
regarded a lapse in an instance known to the
author. A member of Alcoholics Anonymous who
had been helped to remain sober for more than
a year, landed back in the psychiatric ward
where she was quite well known from many
previous visits. The psychiatric intern who
visited her said: 'Well, I see you're back in
here again despite "Alcoholics Anonymous."'
Do we chide a tuberculosis patient who
relapses?"

Might anyone on this list recall anything in
connection with Anderson's anecdote, I wonder?
I'm particularly interested in the name of
the AA member Anderson was referring to.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Ron Roizen
Wallace, Idaho

0 -1 0 0
4930 bruceken@aol.com
Re: Dr. Percy Poliak Dr. Percy Poliak 3/20/2008 9:03:00 AM

Dr. Percy Poliak had indeed been on the staff
of Bellevue Hospital in New York, as Resident
Physician in Charge of the Psychiatric
Division. At that time he had a brief
contact with Bill W. and had come to possess
a Big Book.

While at Bellvue Dr. Poliak also met a San
Francisco drunk, Ted C, who was in the New
York hospital recovering. That was in 1939.
(Ted C. was among the first four members of
AA in San Francisco.)

By March of 1940, however, according to a
history of the California Northern Coastal
Area written by Dean K. (d. 1984), Dr. Poliak
was on the Staff of the San Francisco General
Hospital.

It was at that time that another local AA
member, Don B., had started to drink again,
and was admitted there. Ted C., now a sober AA
member, went to visit Don in the SF hospital
and ran into Dr. Poliak again.

This led to Dr. Poliak becoming very active
with AA membership in San Francisco. attending
AA meetings and referring numerous patients
to the Fellowship. He is honored by AA in San
Francisco as one of its strongest friends.

Bruce Kennedy
Chair, San Francisco Archives Committee

- - - -

Message 4922 from <lance_1954@yahoo.com>
(lance_1954 at yahoo.com)

Hi group!

Does anyone have any info on Dr. Percy Poliak?

He gave the "2nd Doctor's Opinion" in the Big
Book in Chapt. 3, "More About Alcoholism,"
page 43. (It is only one paragraph long!)

Thanks, and God's blessings!

Lance, from colorful Colorado!

- - - -

From the moderator: for additional background,
see

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/BBWhoWhat.htm

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Reference\
\s.pdf

page 43: staff member world renowned hospital
was Dr. Percy Poliak at Bellevue Hospital,
New York

page 43: "two of you men, whose stories I
have heard," unknown.

Dr. Percy Poliak -- San Francisco psychiatrist
was with Bellevue Hospital New York then
San Francisco Country Hospital, impressed
with A.A., gave A.A. group full support
(Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age page 88)

0 -1 0 0
4931 Filiatreau, Amy
Re: Little Red Book Little Red Book 3/17/2008 11:00:00 AM

Glenn wrote: Again, someone with access to
the New York AA Archives needs to check the
original letters to make sure that we have
accurate copies to work from.

- - - -

Hello! As you both know, I usually don’t
stick my foot in at AAHistoryLovers but prefer
just to view the wonderful things others
are researching and writing on this list,
only responding or butting in when specifi-
cally requested to do so. That said, since I
certainly have access to AA’s GSO Archives :-),
I thought I would respond to this and hopefully
can help.

- - - -

We have an original copy of Bobbie Burger’s
November 11, 1944 letter to Barry Collins, and
her words are slightly different than what is
quoted below, and some sentences were removed,
but it’s basically the same. She writes (this
is typed verbatim from her letter):

- - - -

"Dear Barry:

. . . The Washington pamphlet like the new
Cleveland one and the host of others are all
local projects. I doubt that they make
anything on the sale of them for it is only
on a very large distribution that anything
can be made. I know, although we ship thousands
of our own pamphlets, that we actually lose a
little selling at the price we do. Of course,
we do not try to make a profit – the pamphlet
distribution is just another service of this
office. We do not actually approve or
disapprove of these local pieces; by that
I mean that the Foundation feels each Group
is entitled to write up its own 'can opener'
nd [sic] let it stand on its own merits. All
of them have good points and very few have
caused any controversy. But as in all things
of a local nature, we keep hands off, either
pro or con. Personally I’m glad to see the
‘Spnsor’ [sic] pamphlet out of Cleveland. I
know the system there ‘works’ and could be
of benefit to other groups. Frankly I haen’t
[sic] had time to mor [sic] than glance at
the Washington booklet but I’ve heard some
favorable comments about it. I think there
must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being
used and I've yet to see one that hasn't had
some good points. I think it is up to each
individual Group whether it wants to use and
buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out. . . .

Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger)"

- - - -

We have many letters to and from Bill about
this book, but I can’t find the one transcribed
below (also on hindsfoot.org) from November
1950. We have a number of letters from Bill
to Ed Webster and to Barry Collins. They
clearly were communicating with Bill in late
1950; they sent Bill some copies of the new
revision and many letters were exchanged. But
I can’t find Bill’s 1950 letter to Barry with
this quote in it.

However, this is just the sort of thing that
Bill did say in many other letters. I don’t
see any reason at all to think the letter is
not legitimate; we just don’t seem to have it
in our collection. I believe it’s probably
genuine, but without having a copy of it here,
I can’t say for sure.

The Alcoholic Foundation and Bill W. were
always very welcoming of books like this if
they were helpful to AA members, and always
took a very hands-off approach, as we do today.
We have a letter from Bill W. dated November
14, 1946, in which he writes to Ed:

- - - -

“I haven’t had a chance to get at the little
book. Everybody who has read it seems to like
it very much – which of course was to be
expected! Personally I am very glad to see
many people writing about A.A. and circulating
the material about even though some folks
seem to think I should do all the writing.
To me this idea is nonsense. A.A. is not one
point of view, it is many.”

- - - -

On May 31, 1949, Bill writes Ed again to thank
him for sending him some books. He writes,

- - - -

“God forbid that Alcoholics Anonymous ever
become frozen or rigid in its ways of doing
or thinking. Within the framework of our
principles the ways are apparently legion.
There is little doubt that the contribution
you folks have made to our progress will always
be a part of the folk lore of our well-loved
fellowship.”

- - - -

Hope this is helpful. Take care!

Amy

Amy Filiatreau, CA
Archives Director
AA World Services, Inc.

212-870-2568

<filiatreaua@aa.org>
(filiatreaua at aa.org)

0 -1 0 0
4932 celticgreen4
Spiritual experience changed to awakening Spiritual experience changed to awakening 3/24/2008 11:53:00 AM

Can anyone tell me when the Big Book was
changed to say in the 12th Step in Chapter
Five "Having had a spiritual awakening..."
as versus the earlier phrase "Having had a
spiritual experience..."?

- - - -

FROM OUR PAST MESSAGES:

From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005
Subject: RE: Changing "those" to "these"
in 12th step wording

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was
changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition Big Book. The term “spiritual
experience” was changed to “spiritual
awakening” and the term “as the result of
these steps” was changed to “as the result
of those steps.”

An appendix titled “Spiritual Experience” was
also added to the Big Book in the 2nd printing
of the 1st edition. This was done because
many members thought they had to have a sudden
and spectacular spiritual experience similar
to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital. The
appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psycho-
logist William James called the “educational
variety.”

There is a very brief mention of the Step 12
wording change from "experience" to "awakening"
in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter "Religion
Looks at Alcoholics Anonymous" by Father Ed
Dowling (pg 256). Outside of it, I have been
unable to find any further references to the
changes in AA literature.

In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again
in the 2nd printing of the 2nd edition Big
Book. The term “as the result of those steps”
was restored to its original form of “as the
result of these steps.”

The 1976 General Service Conference approved
publication of the 3rd edition Big Book.

The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955
provision of the Conference Charter to specify
that any change to the Steps, Traditions or
Concepts and 6 Warranties of Article 12 of
the General Service Conference Charter, would
require written approval of 75% of the AA
Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory
Action makes any change whatsoever to the
Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a
virtual impossibility (even so much as adding
or removing a comma).

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Message 3677 from "ArtSheehan"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
Sept. 4, 2006

There were a number of significant changes
made to the 2nd printing of the 1st edition
Big Book:

In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the
wording of Step Twelve changed. The term
"spiritual experience" was changed to
"spiritual awakening" and "as the result of
these steps" was changed to "as the result
of those steps." The story "Lone Endeavor"
(of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth
Hock) was removed. Appendix II "Spiritual
Experience" was added. Many members thought
they had to have a sudden, spectacular
spiritual experience similar to the one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix
emphasized that most spiritual experiences
developed slowly over time and were of the
"educational variety." William James, by
the way did not explicitly use the term
"educational variety" in his 1902 book
titled "The Varieties of Religious
Experience - A Study In Human Nature."

0 -1 0 0
4933 shakey1aa
Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers 3/24/2008 12:37:00 AM

I recently obtained printings of the 1st and
2nd reprints of Jack Alexander's SEP (Saturday
Evening Post) article which must have been
the most widely circulasted Can Opener of the
1940's. After the articled appeared in the
magazine the Philadelphia Mother Group ordered
10,000 copies from Judge Curtis Bok, a Phila-
delphia Municipal Court Judge and the owner
of the Curtis publications. One thousand of
these stayed in Philadelphia and nine thousand
went to New York. Our relationship with the
Judge occured with the help from two Non-
Alcoholic members of AA in Philadelphia. They
were referred to as "associate members" and
are listed in the 1st meeting list issued by
the Mother Group. (July 1940) Those two men
were Dr's A Weise Hammer and Dudley Saul.

Has the list of Can Opener's been updated
since the initial post?

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept 2008 ?






- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C." <brucecl2002@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> Here is a list of some of the early AA
> pamphlets I have seen. All early can openers
> had a point.
>
> I have seen two "AA" pamphlets or booklets,
> both from Works Publishing:
>
> 1. - The Houston Press reprints of intro,
> an editorial, and 6 - articles published
> by The Houston Press, with a reprint of
> "A New Approach to Psychotherapy in Chronic
> Alcoholism", by Dr. Silkworth, from "The Journal
> - Lancet, MN. July, 1939, Vol. LIX, No. 7,
> page 312.(no copyright date, circa. 1940)
>
> 2. - AA pamphlet or booklet, 29 pages,
> Alcoholics Anonymous intro, Am I An
> Alcoholic?, The Doctor's Nightmare, The
> European Drinker, Women Suffer Too, Bill's
> Story, Medicine, Religion and Alcoholics
> Anonymous, The Twelve Steps, Our Friends Say,
> Book Review by Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick.
> copyright 1943.
>
> Other Works Publishing pamphlets or booklets:
>
> Medicine Looks at A.A. - 1946
> A.A. Tradition - 1947
> Sedatives - 1948
> The Society of Alcoholics Anonymous - 1950
>
> Pamphlets Booklets with "color covers", by
> the Alcoholic Foundation:
>
> A.A. for the Woman - 1952
> Sedatives and the Alcoholic - 1952
> The Alcoholic Employee - 1952
> Young People and A.A. - 1953
>
> The items stated earlier reprinted from Akron -
> Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, MI., and Chicago,
> IL. central offices.
>
>
> Bruce C.
>

0 -1 0 0
4934 James Bliss
Conference Approved Literature Conference Approved Literature 3/29/2008 12:13:00 PM

I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack
of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the
GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated
10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the
following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:

<begin quote>
"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
A.A. Fellowship.

"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does
_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great
deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or
may not read.

"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production."
<end quote>

It states a little later:
<begin quote>
"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved

"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or
booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as
"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,
Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and
central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The
Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.

"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved
by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."
<end quote>

Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the
original thread.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
4935 Jonathan Rose
Re: Conference Approved Literature Conference Approved Literature 3/30/2008 6:53:00 PM

Hi friends,

The A.A. web-site posts information regarding
Conference-approved and other A.A. literature.
the direct link at the site is:

http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214

in fellowship,

Buck R.

- - - -

On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote:

I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack
of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the
GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated
10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the
following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:

<begin quote>
"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
A.A. Fellowship.

"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does
_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great
deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or
may not read.

"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production."
<end quote>

It states a little later:
<begin quote>
"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved

"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or
booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as
"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,
Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and
central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The
Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.

"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved
by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."
<end quote>

Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the
original thread.

Jim






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4936 garylock7008
Middletown play presented at AA meetings Middletown play presented at AA meetings 3/27/2008 5:06:00 PM

Gary up here in Canada eh!

One of our AA members - sober over 40 years
remembers a play that used to move from group
to group, about Middletown?

He remembers it being performed at one of the
Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder
if anyone can give me more information, a
script?

Best in Recovery - Gary

0 -1 0 0
4937 rdg1649
William James and Appendix William James and Appendix 3/26/2008 7:53:00 PM

It is true that James used the term experiental
rather than educational as Bill's appendix to
the Big Book states.

However, it has always struck me that there
is a far greater problem with this appendix.
Reading it I get the impression that Bill is
implying that it is o.k. if a member's
spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of
lightning' type as he describes his.

In fact, having read James, it is my
impression that James is saying the exact
opposite: That the most lasting and deep
are experiential and not revival type
surges of emotion as Bill describes his.

Seems to me that Bill acurately reports
that James noted a 'variety' of religious
experiences but not with the same emphasis/
orientation that Bill implies.

0 -1 0 0
4938 Danny S
The Third Courageous Doctor The Third Courageous Doctor 3/27/2008 12:06:00 PM

Hey guys. Thanks for all of your service here.
I have a pressing question to which I can't
seem to get the answer. Yet.

Most of us AA History lovers are already
familiar with the two doctors in the Big Book
who did the unspeakable: (i) Admitted to a
suffering patient that they didn't know squat
about how to help a real alcoholic and points
out (ii) the existence of a distinction
between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic.
That would be Silkworth and Jung. We owe our
Fellowship to these men.

But there is one more - a THIRD! In a story
in the back of the Book, "Me an Alcoholic?"
(4th edit. p. 382) the author talks about
his analyst who concluded that the "line
between the heavy drinker and the alcoholic
is not always clear" (385:5) and tells him,
"there is nothing I can do" (386:1) and
"nothing medicine can do".(386:1) The
author points out the analyst's "courage to
admit failure" (386:2)

Is there a name we can ascribe to this third,
courageous and honest physician?

Peace, Danny Schwarzhoff

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Me an Alcoholic?" is found in the 2nd edition
on page 419, 3rd edition on page 432, and 4th
edition on page 382. Author Unknown.

See Nancy Olson's biographies of the authors at
http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
which notes that "This author's date of sobriety
is believed to be November 1947."

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
4939 jlobdell54
History & Archives Lebanon PA June 21 2008 History & Archives Lebanon PA June 21 2008 3/31/2008 10:15:00 AM

Multi-District History & Archives Gathering
Lebanon, Pennsylvania, June 21 2008

This year's Gathering is scheduled to begin
at 8 a.m. (registration) on Saturday June 21
2008 at the Social Hall at 750 State Drive in
Lebanon PA (location also in 2006 and 2007).

Suggested topics for panels are:

**The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H,
Shep C, Cebra G)

**AA and Baseball

**AA and Films/Theatre

**Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region

**AA Pioneers

**And a Panel on Coming into AA in the
Eastern Pennsylvania Area in October 1970
(three old friends who have known each
other in sobriety for more than 35 years).

The Gathering is FREE and morning refreshments
and lunch will be provided.

End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m.

Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net
(histandarch at comcast.net)

0 -1 0 0
4940 Bob Schultz
Re: Middletown play presented at AA meetings Middletown play presented at AA meetings 3/31/2008 7:09:00 PM

http://www.aaprimarypurpose.org/literature/Twelve%20Traditions%20Play.pdf

From: "Bob Schultz" <bsdds@comcast.net>
(bsdds at comcast.net)

Also from: "mchugh1652"
<mchugh1652@ameritech.net>
(mchugh1652 at ameritech.net)

- - - -

From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com>
(scmws at yahoo.com)

The local districts and occasionally a group
have put on skits at conferences. The Twelve
Traditions play is a fine skit which teaches
the players and others much about the
traditions and service structure. I ran
across The Twelve Concepts play somewhere,
but I can't find it right now.

There is a good website:

recoveryskits.com

which might be a place to look.

Thanks.

Sam'l Sommers
Elkhart Indiana

- - - -

From: "gayle" <downtowndoggie@yahoo.com>
(downtowndoggie at yahoo.com)

Hello to all! this is my first post. I
requested the script for this play from GSO
back in the 90's & actually performed in it
twice. I am looking at the script right now.
It's called "Twelve Traditions Play" the
cast is made up of: Narrator, Founder
(oldtimer), Moneybags, Eager Beaver,
Politician, Delegate and Newcomer! It takes
place in Middletown Group. It also says
"There is no set script or cast for this play.
Like everything in A.A., it is very "loosely"
organized. Ideally there should be seven
players; this version is set up for six
players and a narrator or themesetter who
opens and closes the play."


----- Original Message -----
From: garylock7008
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Middletown play presented at AA meetings


Gary up here in Canada eh!

One of our AA members - sober over 40 years
remembers a play that used to move from group
to group, about Middletown?

He remembers it being performed at one of the
Founder's Days a number of years ago - wonder
if anyone can give me more information, a
script?

Best in Recovery - Gary

0 -1 0 0
4941 chesbayman56
Significant April Dates in A.A. History Significant April Dates in A.A. History 4/1/2008 1:34:00 AM

April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &
tell them of obsession & allergy.
April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best
Friend" by Jack Alexander.
April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest
desire to stop drinking".
April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service
Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.
April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.
April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big
Book.
April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used
to open AA meetings in Texas.
April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.
April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.
April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.
April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill
W's "spiritual sponsor."
April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking
for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack
Alexander.
April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the
office Bill and Hank P shared.
April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for
A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)
April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones
in New Bedford.
April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-
hitter in baseball history since 1909.
April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the
one millionth copy of the Big Book.
April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
formed. First 'mail order' group.
April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was
formed in Seattle.
April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock
to the Alcoholic Foundation.
April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book
royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.
April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.
April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.
April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.
April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.
April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.
April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation
was broadcast on ABC TV.

0 -1 0 0
4942 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Conference Approved Literature Conference Approved Literature 3/31/2008 5:50:00 PM

Hi All

I'd like to make an appeal to give consideration
to performing a search of the large and rich
archival postings of AA History Lovers. Topics
such as "Conference-approved literature" have
surfaced a number of times in the forum and it
is well worth a trip through the past postings.
It will also yield much more information on
individual viewpoints of various members of
the forum. It's a rich information source -
please take advantage of it.

The information published by GSO on what
"Conference-approved" means, is also included
in hard copy form in the Group Handbook offered
by AAWS/GSO. GSO publishes a number of
informative and valuable "service pieces"
that do not require Conference approval. The
information cited about what "Conference-
approved" means is one these "service pieces."

The Conference-approval process can be very
rigorous at times. Trustees Committees and
the GSO Publications Department are vital
parts of the whole process. More often than
not only a small percentage of Conference
Delegates will have the opportunity to
completely review a piece of literature prior
to voting on it on the Conference floor for
Conference approval/disapproval.

It would be a physical impossibility for all
Conference Delegates to review every piece of
literature under consideration. The backbone
of the Conference is made up of "Conference
Committees" (explained in the AA Service
Manual). Each Conference Committee that has
a literature item on its agenda performs the
detailed review and discussion and makes a
"recommendations" to the Conference as a whole
for approval. If the recommendation receives
at least a 2/3 majority in the affirmative
then it is approved.

The Conference approval process can also be
intimidating and onerous. One of the members
of this forum, Mel B, wrote the lion's share
of Bill W's biography "Pass It On" (the
original title proposed was "Bill W and His
Friends" - my Areas Archives has 2 manuscript
copies). I don't want to try to speak for Mel
but I can only imagine how tough it was to
satisfy a formidable array of Trustees and
Delegates on a biography of Bill W. Also,
the attempt to write an AA history from 1955
had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference
approval for any type of historical work would
be one heck of a major challenge (and probably
rightfully so).

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rose
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:53 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference Approved Literature

Hi friends,

The A.A. web-site posts information regarding
Conference-approved and other A.A. literature.
the direct link at the site is:

http://aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=214

in fellowship,

Buck R.

- - - -

On Mar 29, 2008, at 12:13 PM, James Bliss wrote:

I know that this is a little late, but I was just going through a stack
of material organizing it and came across an interesting item from the
GSO 'Service Material From GSO'. It is document number F-29 dated
10/93. I do not know if it is still available. But it says the
following regarding 'Conference-Approved literature:

<begin quote>
"The term "Conference-approved" describes written or audiovisual
material approved by the Conference for publication by G.S.O. This
process assures that everything in such literature is in accord with
A.A. principles. Conference-approved material always deals with the
recovery program of Alcoholics Anonymous or with information about the
A.A. Fellowship.

"The term has no relation to material not published by G.S.O. It does
_not_ imply Conference Disapproval of other material about A.A. A great
deal of literature helpful to alcoholics is published by others, and
A.A. does not try to tell any individual member what he or she may or
may not read.

"Conference approval assures us that a piece of literature represents
solid A.A. experience. Any Conference-approved booklet or pamphlet goes
through a lengthy and painstaking process, during which a variety of
A.A.s from all over the United States and Canada read and express
opinions at every stage of production."
<end quote>

It states a little later:
<begin quote>
"All "A.A. Literature" Is Not Conference-approved

"Central offices and intergroups do write and distribute pamphlets or
booklets that are not Conference-approved. If such pieces meet the
needs of the local membership, they may be legitimately classified as
"A.A. literature." There is no conflict between A.A. World Services,
Inc. (A.A.W.S. -- publishers of Conference-approved literature), and
central offices or intergroups - rather they complement each other. The
Conference does not _disapprove_ of such material.

"G.S.O. does develop some literature that does not have to be approved
by the Conference, such as service material, Guidelines and bulletins."
<end quote>

Thought this might be of interest to those who were following the
original thread.

Jim






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

0 -1 0 0
4943 ginnymatthew
Question about the circle, triangle and other Question about the circle, triangle and other 4/1/2008 6:43:00 PM

I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book
printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and
the title page have the AA circle and triangle
logo that I thought was 'banned' from being
used back in 1996. How is it that they are
able to use this logo?

Also on the front page is a disclaimer which
states "No part of this publication may be
reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
or transmitted in any form or by any means
without the prior permission of the publisher."

U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.
What is that about?

Gratefully,
Ginny

0 -1 0 0
4944 Mel Barger
Re: Conference Approved Literature Conference Approved Literature 4/4/2008 4:48:00 PM

Hi Arthur,

I appreciate your memo on Conference-approved
literature. You have pointed out how rigorous
the approval process is and how difficult
it is to get final approval. I was probably
the right guy to work on Bill's bio because
my background was in writing for a corporation,
where you have to please everybody from the
assistant janitor to the CEO. But I was
replaced after two years!

Working on Bill's bio was, however, a wonder-
ful experience that gave me the opportunity
to interview people I never would have met
and it also enabled me to write three of my
Hazelden books.

What I'd really like to see, as an independent
author, is some effort to show that "outside"
literature can be just as useful as the
conference-approved materials (and might also
be necessary in seeking happy sobriety).

Some members apparently believe that a good
AA should read only conference-approved
literature, which is not the purpose of the
process. This viewpoint has become so fixed
in Toledo that people apologize if they quote
from a piece that is not conference-approved.
"Twenty-Four Hours a Day" used to be sold at
most groups here, but it was finally eliminated
by the self-appointed AA police (is my resent-
ment showing?).

You referred to the ill-starred attempt to
produce an AA history covering the period from
1955 on. I understand that this failed because
delegates were unhappy with the histories of
their own areas, for various reasons. The
project was finally shelved after spending a
small fortune producing a version.

It did get out somehow, and I have a copy for
occasional reference, but there is no approved
copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will
never have an authorized history covering
this period; the job will be left to outside
writers by default.

Mel Barger

melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

0 -1 0 0
4945 Shakey1aa@aol.com
The Stools and Bottle Talk The Stools and Bottle Talk 4/5/2008 3:12:00 PM

I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a
tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like
to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or
know how to purchase the props for the talk?

shakey mike gwirtz

0 -1 0 0
4946 johnhartie
Doctor''s opinion Doctor''s opinion 4/6/2008 9:25:00 AM

My name is John Hartie, I'm doing the commit-
ment for the history lovers at Barking big
book study.

The question is, in the Doctor's Opinion page
xxx, was the classification of the alcoholic
put in order for any reason?

We are looking for facts and not anyone's
opinion, sorry if that sounds harsh.

0 -1 0 0
4947 DudleyDobinson@aol.com
Re: Question about the circle, triangle and other Question about the circle, triangle and other 4/4/2008 5:39:00 PM

From Dudley Dobinson and Phillip Baker

**************

From: DudleyDobinson <DudleyDobinson@aol.com>
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi Ginny,

As I understand, it in the UK (and in Ireland
where I live and am in service) the copyright
of the Big Book and AA Circle/Triangle was not
lost and is still in force. You can verify this
by visiting either country's web site. Here
in Ireland we use the logo on all official AA
correspondence. However we do buy our literature
from New York whereas the UK prints some of
its own. I could go on, hopefully this will
answer your question.

In Service - Dudley

- - - -

From: Phillip Baker <phillipb@the12steps.net>
(phillipb at the12steps.net)

Different copyright laws in different countries.
The copyright for the 1st and 2nd edition were
allowed to lapse in the US only.

This does nto apply to other countries.

Also in the US the 3rd and 4th edition is under
copyright. But I guess since the first 164
pages are now public domain, that copyright
only applies to the new forwards, the personal
stories and the additional appendixes.

But basically there are different copyright
laws in different countries.

I assume the circle and triangle fell under
that as well. I would assume that the AA
office in the UK chose to keep using the
circle and triangle. They would be autonomous
from from the AA central office here in the
states around certain issues.

Blessed Be

Phillip
http://www.the12steps.net

- - - -

Original message from <ginnymatthew@yahoo.com>
(ginnymatthew at yahoo.com)

I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book
printed in Great Britain. The dust jacket and
the title page have the AA circle and triangle
logo that I thought was 'banned' from being
used back in 1996. How is it that they are
able to use this logo?

Also on the front page is a disclaimer which
states "No part of this publication may be
reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
or transmitted in any form or by any means
without the prior permission of the publisher."

U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.
What is that about?

Gratefully,
Ginny

0 -1 0 0
4948 Bob Schultz
Courageous doctors: Dr. Talbot and Dr. Zweig Courageous doctors: Dr. Talbot and Dr. Zweig 4/1/2008 7:20:00 AM

I think there were/are many courageous
physicians out there such as my sponsor.
He sobered up in 1970 in Denver while an
ophthalmologist and then came to be a dean
of a medical school in Texas. While he was
in charge the school adopted the study of
Alcoholism and presented as a curriculum.
There were four career teachers in that field
named from that med school. He got himself
associated with IDAA and then was able to
put together CME courses for health professi-
onals that included a gamut of subjects, but
the underlying theme was a study of addiction.

There were all night alkathons and a meeting
planned or put together quickly. Dr. Talbot
attended some of them as did many other well-
known treatment people and caregivers for
alcoholism care. He ran his tenure for nearly
eight years.

Whenever he got up to speak to this group, he
would always start out with; "let's cut to the
chase! My name is George and i am an alcoholic."
Sadly, the CME meetings stopped when he stepped
down.

George T virtually died in my arms in the late
90's in an extended care facility. In my eyes
he was a hero and one of the most courageous
men I ever knew. I can never show him enough
respect. There are countless numbers that
benefited from his stand and most will never
know they did. Just my 2 cents.

In sobriety

Bob S

- - - -

From the moderator: see also the story of
Dr. Zweig in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html
http://hindsfoot.org/nftwayn1.html

"Dr. Zweig: The Good Physician"

[John S. in Fort Wayne (who writes the
anonymous John Barleycorn column about A.A.
in the Waynedale News) has given us the story
of Dr. Zweig, a physician who was not an
alcoholic himself, but who reached out to
help struggling alcoholics long before the
medical profession as a whole began to
recognize A.A. and the modern understanding of
alcoholism as a disease. Dr. Zweig's memory
is lovingly preserved in Fort Wayne A.A. as
one of their great heroes.]

The story Dr. Zweig told me before his 1994
death, was that after he was discharged from
the Army in 1945 he returned to Fort Wayne.
Doc was not an alcoholic himself, but he was
a deeply caring and compassionate man -- the
living example of the Good Physician -- who
became deeply involved in helping A.A. after
he saw what the program could accomplish.

Soon after returning to the Fort, he (Dr. Zweig)
ran into a former patient whom he had diagnosed
as a chronic alcoholic. Doc said it was a
consternation to him because the man was sober
now, and he was of the opinion, as was the
American Medical Association, that chronic
alcoholism was not treatable. Doc's conundrum:
"Did he incorrectly diagnose this man or was
there a cure?" Doc asked the man how long he'd
been sober and he said about two years.

Doc asked his patient how he'd gotten sober
and the man said, "I've been going to an AA
meeting in Huntington." That is a town of
around 16,000 population twenty miles or so
southwest of Fort Wayne. Doc was inducted into
the Army after the Japanese attacked Pearl
Harbor in December 1941 and was in the Army
from 1942 until 1945. If Doc's alcoholic
patient had his facts right that would've
put him at an A.A. meeting in Huntington
sometime in 1943.

Doc asked if he could go to the next meeting
with him, the man said yes, and when Doc
attended the A.A. meeting in Huntington he
found two other former patients for whom he
had also written "chronic alcoholic" on their
medical charts. They too were now sober.

Doc said he returned to the Fort and immedi-
ately talked with a judge and asked him to
take the next chronic alcoholic whom he was
going to sentence to Richmond State Hospital,
and assign custody of that person to him
instead. At that point, the judge was about
to sentence a woman named Street Car Sally
to Richmond, so he instead assigned her to
Doc's custody. Doc said the woman was covered
with every parasite known to man and that she
was turning tricks for six packs while living
in an abandoned street car.

Doc took Street Car Sally to Huntington and
those alcoholics' wives fed, bathed, and
clothed her, worked the steps with her, and
had her attend their meetings while Doc drove
to Huntington each day and gave her a vitamin
B12 shot. Three months later Doc took Sally
back before the same judge and when the judge
called her name he looked around the courtroom
and said to the bailiff, "She's not here." Doc
said to the judge, "Your honor, she's standing
right here!"

Sally was such a changed person, the judge
couldn't even recognize her anymore. In spite
of the fact that he had asked to be allowed to
do this experiment, Doc was equally amazed at
the difference that three months of A.A. had
made in her. He said, "John, I believed I had
witnessed a miracle of biblical proportions!"

Perhaps partly to protect his own medical
reputation at first, Doc worked with A.A. on
a totally anonymous basis from 1945 until 1955,
when the American Medical Association finally
recognized alcoholism as an illness. He decided
at that point that he did not want any kind of
personal credit anyway for the work he was
doing, and so he was careful to retain his
anonymity even after that. He had come to
understand how the A.A. way of life worked,
and had come to realize that the best kind of
service to others is the kind in which we seek
no thanks or rewards for ourselves at all.

Doc and some other local doctors attempted to
introduce A.A. into Russia via some other
medical doctors whom they met in Berlin, but
had no success at that time. It was going to
take a while to penetrate behind the Iron
Curtain, where the authorities were suspicious
of anything coming out of the western world,
and the government was officially atheistic.

A.A. was first established in Fort Wayne on
December 7, 1941, by C. L. Buckley and three
other alcoholics. The group he founded, which
was later called the Buckley Group, was the
first in Fort Wayne. But even in 1945, A.A.
was so little publicized that Dr. Zweig was
not aware that there was a group right there
in Fort Wayne. Since his former patients were
attending an A.A.meeting in Huntington, that
was the only A.A. group he knew about. So at
first he and his alcoholic patients were
driving the twenty plus miles to Huntington
instead of attending the Buckley group back
home in the Fort.

I have never been able to nail down where A.A.
in Huntington originally came from. Did it come
there from the Buckley Group, which had been
inspired by their contact with Indianapolis
A.A.? The old timers I've talked with so far,
said they were not certain, but suspected that
A.A. came to Huntington from an Evansville
newspaper editor at abut the same time the
Buckley Group came to Fort Wayne from Indy. I
suspect the old guys might be right, because
if the Huntington meeting had come from the
Fort, why would Doc's former alcoholic patients
have been driving all the way down to Huntington
at the beginning instead of just attending the
Buckley Group right at home? The Huntington
people would have told them right away about
the group they already had in Fort Wayne.

[Editor's note: Editor: This was probably
J. D. Holmes, the founder of A.A. in Indiana,
who worked for the Evansville newspaper, and
traveled all over Indiana founding AA groups
and bringing literature to new AA groups.]

- - - -

[On AA in Fort Wayne, Indiana, see also
http://hindsfoot.org/barruth.html
"A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth Finds God
in the A.A. Meetings," by John Barleycorn]

0 -1 0 0
4949 Bob Schultz
Re: The Stools and Bottle Talk The Stools and Bottle Talk 4/6/2008 4:27:00 PM

http://www.epinions.com/content_75295788676

Don't know if this is what you were after.
If not disregard .... Gads, I learn a lot
from this group!!!

bob s


----- Original Message -----
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 3:12 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Stools and Bottle Talk


I'd like to know if anyone has a script or a
tape of the stools and bottle talk? I'd like
to get a copy of it? and does anyone make or
know how to purchase the props for the talk?

shakey mike gwirtz

0 -1 0 0
4950 Arthur Sheehan
RE: William James and Appendix William James and Appendix 4/1/2008 12:43:00 AM

There are two major errors in the Spiritual
Experience Appendix in the Big Book.

The first error is that James never used the
term "educational variety" (nor did he use
the term "experiential").

The second error in the appendix is the
attribution of the "... contempt prior to
investigation" citation to Herbert Spencer.
It should be attributed to William Paley.

In 1901, Harvard professor William James
presented the "Gifford Lecture Series on
Natural Religion" at the University of
Aberdeen in Edinburgh, Scotland. His
lectures were published in 1902 in a
critically acclaimed book titled "The
Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study
In Human Nature."

James cited numerous examples of two styles
of spiritual transformation, one was gradual
and the other was sudden and dramatic. He did
not represent one form as superior to the
other.

32 years after its publication, a copy of
the book was given to Bill W during his last
stay in Towns Hospital. Bill found it deeply
inspiring by its revealing 3 key points for
recovery:

1st: the need for a complete defeat in a vital
area of life (or what we today call "hitting
bottom")

2nd: the admission of defeat (or what we today
call "acceptance") and

3rd: an appeal to a higher power for help
(or what we today call "surrender"). These
spiritual principles later became the basis
for Steps 1, 2 and 3.

In March 1941, almost two years after the
first printing of the first edition Big Book,
the wording of Step 12 was changed in the
second printing. The term "spiritual experience"
was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the
term "as the result of these steps" was changed
to "as the result of those steps."

An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was
added. Many members thought they had to have
a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience
similar to the one Bill had in Towns Hospital.
The appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences developed slowly over time and
were of the "educational variety."

As a follow on to James' characterization of
conversion experiences it is useful to download
either a searchable PDF or text file version
of the book and then do a string search using
either "sudden" or "gradual." You'll discover
repeated instances where both are described
as different means to the same end with the
end result being what is important - not how
you got there.

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rdg1649
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:53 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] William James and Appendix

It is true that James used the term experiental
rather than educational as Bill's appendix to
the Big Book states.

However, it has always struck me that there
is a far greater problem with this appendix.
Reading it I get the impression that Bill is
implying that it is o.k. if a member's
spiritual experience is not of the 'bolt of
lightning' type as he describes his.

In fact, having read James, it is my
impression that James is saying the exact
opposite: That the most lasting and deep
are experiential and not revival type
surges of emotion as Bill describes his.

Seems to me that Bill acurately reports
that James noted a 'variety' of religious
experiences but not with the same emphasis/
orientation that Bill implies.

0 -1 0 0
4951 James Bliss
AA history from 1955 to the present AA history from 1955 to the present 4/6/2008 3:56:00 PM

Below is a brief history of the attempt to
publish the history from 1955 to the present.
It reflects the cost and the process which
this went through before it was finally
discarded. I have also provided some specula-
tion about who the various writers might have
been, drawing that information from a few
different resources.

Hopefully this will be of interest to the
members of this group.

The time line of events was:

1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which
was provided to the Trustees Literature
Committee. They felt it was not appropriate.
A second writer was selected. He was unable
to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was
asked to withdraw from the project.

1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written
“Pass It On” and began work. A draft she
prepared was reviewed by the Trustees
Literature Committee and to ‘readers’ with
special expertise. They provided suggestions
and comments which were incorporated.

1992 - the Conference Literature Committee
received the ‘final’ manuscript from writer 3

1993 – Although there was some unhappiness
regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on
to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee.
Contractual differences arose between the
author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned

1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain
sections and write a new one. This fairly
complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993
Conference Literature Committee who recommended
the project be deferred for 2 years so that a
new group from AA could look at it with fresh
ideas.

The project died at this time.

The following was a review of the history as
provided by AAWS:

1985 – the Conference Literature Committee
formed a subcommittee to develop an outline
for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985
similar to “A.A. Comes of Age”

1986 – An outline for a definitive history
was prepared and forwarded to the Conference
Literature Committee for consideration. The
Conference Literature Committee recommended
that a definitive book on A.A. history from
1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the
1987 Conference.

1987 – The committee reviewed the progress
report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was
indicated that the first draft manuscript to
included 26 chapters of approximately 700
pages would be ready by the January 1988
deadline.

1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter
and table of contents of the first draft
manuscript of the A.A. History Book and
recommended that it be referred to the
Conference Literature Committee. The 1988
Conference recommended that work continue on
the A.A. History Book.

Following the Conference, the committee
affirmed:

- the Trustees Literature Committee will
assume responsibility for this project through
a subcommittee

- the publications director will be asked to
find a writer whose specialty is history and
that the current writer will continue the
effort of obtaining missing area histories

- it was the consensus of the committee that
the section on area histories should be treated
as a separate archival project

- it was suggested that the Conference
Literature Committee be asked for suggestions
with regard to how the material should be
handled

1989 – The area histories were separated from
the first manuscript and forwarded to the
Archives Committee on the recommendation of
the 1989 Conference Literature Committee

Writers experienced in producing historical
reviews were asked to submit outlines for the
subcommittee prior to the Conference so that
a status report could be prepared for the
Conference Literature Committee. The sub-
committee selected a writer and a timetable
with estimated completion in January, 1991.
The Conference Literature Committee recommended
that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded
focusing on major events and developments
since the co-founders turned A.A. over to
the Fellowship, rather than centering on the
beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91
areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued.

1990 – the subcommittee’s review of the outline
and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the
guidelines along with the suggestion for
stronger editorial control, and recommended
that the summary of progress be provided to
the Conference Literature Committee, along
with the reaffirmation that draft copies not
be circulated in advance of the completion
of the manuscript. In late February the sub-
committee and author part and the search for
a replacement was undertaken. An experienced
writer, with broad background with A.A.
literature was subsequently hired). The
Conference Literature Committee recommended
that the project continue to completion. This
became a Conference Action.

1991 – the subcommittee reported that the
project was on schedule with the manuscript
to be delivered by March, 1992.

1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee
recommended that the A.A. History Book be
forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit-
tee. The Conference Literature Committee
recommended that the manuscript be returned
to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee
and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference
Literature Committee.

1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft
manuscript was forwarded to the Conference
Literature Committee which recommended that
the project be deferred for 2 years so that
a new team of A.A. servants can look at the
history book with fresh ideas.

1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed
and did not approve a request to revive the
History Book project. Conference Literature
Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the
Conference: “That the manuscript originally
commissioned as a history book be relabeled
“collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous”
and that it be placed in the Archives and made
available for purchase at a cost upon request
after editing for anonymity and various speci-
fic concerns relating to accuracy of content
and style.

1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee
discussed requests regarding the draft of
the A.A. History Book written by <writer 3
from the first description above> (and others)
and agreed that it not be made available
in the Archives or anywhere else since it
runs the risk of becoming ‘unofficial’ A.A.
literature and could involve legal problems.

1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee
forwarded to the Conference Literature
Committee an area request that a second
history book be developed. The Conference
Literature Committee agreed there was no
compelling need to develop this project.

Expenses:

Paid 86 – 92

224,000
117,000
_______

341,000 (sub total)

1992 - 5,000

1992 - 8,000

1993 - 26,000
_______

380,000 (total)

From some information I was provided (from
Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation
which I have, I am speculating:

Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure
speculation but appears to be well founded
from the follow up email. The alternative is
that he is writer 2 since the group history
was not the focus of his material and writer 1
appeared to focus more on the history of the
groups rather that AAWS.

Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure
speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if
his material was more focused on the groups
than AAWS.

Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my
documentation

Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly
minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding
much substantive content.

- - - -

Message 4942 from <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com) said:

"The attempt to write an AA history from 1955
had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference
approval for any type of historical work would
be one heck of a major challenge (and probably
rightfully so)."

- - - -

Message 4944 from "Mel Barger"
<melb@accesstoledo.com>
(melb at accesstoledo.com) said:

"You referred to the ill-starred attempt to
produce an AA history covering the period from
1955 on. I understand that this failed because
delegates were unhappy with the histories of
their own areas, for various reasons. The
project was finally shelved after spending a
small fortune producing a version. It
did get out somehow, and I have a copy for
occasional reference, but there is no approved
copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will
never have an authorized history covering
this period; the job will be left to outside
writers by default."

0 -1 0 0
4952 jenny andrews
Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 4/7/2008 5:22:00 AM

I guess Conference-approved means that that
literature carries the imprimatur, or at
least endorsement, of the Fellowship's
collective group conscience; but as the
Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many
helpful books also. Suggestions about these
may be obtained from one's priest, minister
or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,
I would add - or from Amazon or a library!

- - - -

From: pvttimt@aol.com
(pvttimt at aol.com)

If one studies history a bit, one begins to
see that any "true history" is simply the
aggregate experience of all who lived through
the events of interest. I'm thinking that
you may be doing a huge service to the
fellowship by compiling good primary reference
material for future historians to sift once
the old-timers that cause all the controversy
are gone from the scene! It's the old "blind
men describing the elephant" problem. No
"history" is ever complete, or completely
"true," whatever that is supposed to mean.

Best regards. Tim T., an alky

- - - -

From: joseph fischer <joehenryfish@yahoo.com>
(joehenryfish at yahoo.com)

Ernest Kurtz who wrote the book Not God was
given access to the archives.

0 -1 0 0
4953 Arthur Sheehan
RE: Significant April Dates in A.A. History Significant April Dates in A.A. History 4/7/2008 5:46:00 PM

From Arthur Sheehan, Tom Hickcox, and John Lee:

- - - -

From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Last December I requested that timelines or
date listings be validated and cross-referenced
to corroborating sources. Otherwise there is
risk in distributing misinformation instead
of factual information. There are too many of
these types of lists already in circulation
that unfortunately are interpreted as authori-
tative. The timeline distributed for April
has a number of errors for the dates shown
below [corrections are in brackets - I didn't
check every entry so there may be more]:

April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics
Anonymous, AA's Big Book.

[The copyright application states a publication
date of April 10, 1939.]

April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote
"The Texas Prayer", used to open AA meetings
in Texas.

[It was written in March 1940 with the title
"A.A. Prayer" not "The Texas Prayer." Outside
of Houston there is no evidence of widespread
usage to "open AA meetings in Texas"]

April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation
formed as a trusteeship for A.A. (sometimes
reported as May 1938).

[The trust indenture document of the Alcoholic
Foundation marks its inception as August 5,
1938. Its first meeting was on August 11, 1938]

April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found
a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford.

[The city is Bedford Hills, NY. The initial
name they gave their home was "Bill-Lo's Break"
and later renamed it "Stepping Stones." New
Bedford is in Massachusetts. That is where
Bill went through part of his military training
and where he had his first drink]

April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer
their Works Publishing stock to the Alcoholic
Foundation.

[The letter signed by Bill and Hank transfer-
ring the stock is dated April 24, 1940. It
also included a requirement that Dr Bob and
his wife Anne receive a 10% royalty on Big
Book sales for life]

April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to
refuse Big Book royalties, but Bill W insisted
that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.

[This can be misleading as stated (see page
269 in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers").
Dr Bob accepted royalties from Big Book sales
all his life. He started infrequently receiving
royalties in 1940 (and shared them with Bill).
Bill started receiving royalties shortly after
the outbreak of World War II]

April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service
Conference was held.

[It was held at the Hotel Commodore, New
York City on April 20-21-22, 1951]

I make a lot of errors with dates and am
nothing near perfect, so I'm not trying to
do a putdown of the submitter. However, a
forum like AAHistoryLovers should be propa-
gating facts not misinformation. I would
again like to request that timelines not be
distributed in AAHistoryLovers unless they
contain references corroborating the dates
and events stated.

Arthur

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

At 23:34 3/31/2008 , you wrote:

>April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found
>a home, Stepping Stones in New Bedford.

I believe we went round and round with this
a couple of years ago. There is no such place
as New Bedford, New York. Stepping Stones is
in Bedford Hills or Bedford. See what the
address is and who they pay local taxes to.
In that area one usually pays taxes to the
township the property is located within.

>April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches
>the only opening day no-hitter in baseball
>history since 1909.

It would be interesting to have the teams and
the score.

>April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented
>President Nixon with the one millionth copy
>of the Big Book. April 19, 1940 - The first
>AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
>formed. First 'mail order' group.

Was the Little Rock Group the mail order group?

>April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.

We might mention that he was Lois' brother.
At least I think he was.

>April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on
>Gabriel Heatter radio show.
>April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service
>Conference was held.

Where?

Tommy

- - - -

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

April 11, 1941: Bill and Lois' address was
Bedford Hills, not New Bedford. Stepping Stones
is actually located in Katonah, New York, not
Bedford Hills [if you ever choose to visit].

John Lee

- - - -

From the moderator: please see the next
message, number 4954, on Bedford, Bedford
Hills, and Katonah. The TOWN is named
Bedford.

Katonah is a hamlet at the north town line.
Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet
also contained within the Town of Bedford.

ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only
has a population of 18,133. This is NOT a
big, hairy deal. Just ask one of the locals
after you get there where 62 Oak Road is,
O.K. ????

Even the official Stepping Stones website
can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place
ought better be described as being in "Bedford
Hills" or in "Katonah," so they have it one
way on one page, and the other way on another.

Glenn C.

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chesbayman56
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:35 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Significant April Dates in A.A. History

April 1935 - Dr. Silkworth told Bill to quit preaching at drunks &
tell them of obsession & allergy.
April 1950 - Saturday Evening Post article "The Drunkard's Best
Friend" by Jack Alexander.
April 1958 - The word "honest" dropped from AA Preamble, "an honest
desire to stop drinking".
April 1966 - Change in ratio of trustees of the General Service
Board; now two thirds (majority) are alcoholic.
April 1970 - GSO moved to 468 Park Ave. South, NYC.
April 1, 1939 - Publication date of Alcoholics Anonymous, AA's Big
Book.
April 1, 1940 - Larry J. of Houston, wrote "The Texas Prayer", used
to open AA meetings in Texas.
April 1, 1966 - Sister Ignatia died.
April 2, 1966 - Harry Tiebout, M.D. died.
April 3, 1941 - First AA meeting held in Florida.
April 3, 1960 - Fr. Ed Dowling, S.J., died. He was Bill
W's "spiritual sponsor."
April 7, 1941 - Ruth Hock reported there were 1,500 letters asking
for help as a result of the Saturday Evening Post Article by Jack
Alexander.
April 10, 1939 - The first ten copies of the Big Book arrived at the
office Bill and Hank P shared.
April 11, 1938 - The Alcoholic Foundation formed as a trusteeship for
A.A. (sometimes reported as May 1938)
April 11, 1941 - Bill and Lois finally found a home, Stepping Stones
in New Bedford.
April 16, 1940 - A sober Rollie H. catches the only opening day no-
hitter in baseball history since 1909.
April 16, 1973 - Dr. Jack Norris presented President Nixon with the
one millionth copy of the Big Book.
April 19, 1940 - The first AA group in Little Rock, Arkansas, was
formed. First 'mail order' group.
April 19, 1941 - The first AA group in the State of Washington was
formed in Seattle.
April 22, 1940 - Bill and Hank transfer their Works Publishing stock
to the Alcoholic Foundation.
April 23, 1940 - Dr. Bob wrote the Trustees to refuse Big Book
royalties, but Bill W insisted that Dr. Bob and Anne receive them.
April 24, 1940 - The first AA pamphlet, "AA", was published.
April 24, 1989 - Dr. Leonard Strong died.
April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on Gabriel Heatter radio show.
April 25, 1951 - AA's first General Service Conference was held.
April 26 or May 1, 1939 - Bank forecloses on 182 Clinton Street.
April 30, 1989 - Film "My Name is Bill W." a Hallmark presentation
was broadcast on ABC TV.

0 -1 0 0
4954 Glenn Chesnut
Stepping Stones: Bedford, Bedford Hills, and Katonah Stepping Stones: Bedford, Bedford Hills, and Katonah 4/11/2008 5:00:00 PM

Where is Stepping Stones located, Bill and
Lois Wilson's home?

- - - -

It is not in "New Bedford." There are five
towns by this name in the United States, but
none of them are in the right state:

New Bedford, Massachusetts, the most populous
New Bedford, Illinois
New Bedford, New Jersey
New Bedford, Ohio
New Bedford, Pennsylvania

- - - -

The TOWN in New York state is named Bedford.

Katonah is a hamlet contained within the
Town of Bedford, located at the north town
line.

Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet
also contained within the Town of Bedford.

ALL of the Town of Bedford put together only
has a population of 18,133.

Even the official Stepping Stones website
can't decide whether Bill and Lois' place
ought better be described as being in
"Bedford Hills" or in "Katonah," so they
have it one way on one page, and the other
way on another.

- - - -

Stepping Stones: The Historic Home of Bill
and Lois Wilson

http://www.steppingstones.org/ says:

"Located 45 minutes north of NYC by car
and 1 hour by train, in Bedford Hills, NY"

- - - -

http://www.steppingstones.org/visiting.html says:

"62 Oak Road, Katonah, New York 10536"

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katonah,_New_York says:

"Katonah, New York is one of three
unincorporated hamlets within the town
of Bedford, Westchester County."

"Katonah is often styled as a 'village' by
its residents. For example, its library is
called the Katonah Village Library. However,
'village' has a legal meaning in New York.
Katonah is not a village, but merely a hamlet,
a non-legally-defined section of a town.
Katonah does have its own ZIP code, 10536,
and a Metro-North station. It is also part of
the Katonah-Lewisboro school district."

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Hills,_New_York says:

"Bedford Hills is an unincorporated hamlet
in the Town of Bedford, New York. When the
railroad was built in 1847, Bedford Hills was
known as Bedford Station. Bedford Hills extends
from a business center at the railroad station
to farms and estates, eastward along Harris,
Babbitt and Bedford Center Roads and south
along the Route 117 business corridor up to
Mt. Kisco. Bedford Hills is the seat of
government of the Town of Bedford."

- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_%28town%29%2C_New_York says:

"Bedford is a town in Westchester County,
New York, USA. The population was 18,133 at
the 2000 census. The Town of Bedford is in
the central part of the county."

"Communities and locations in Bedford:

Bedford Village -- A hamlet in the southeast
part of the town, also known as Bedford.

Bedford Hills -- A hamlet in the Cross River
Reservoir -- A reservoir in the northern
portion of the town.

Katonah -- A hamlet at the north town line.

Bedford Corners -- A very small hamlet
neighboring larger town Mount Kisco."

Among the famous people who have lived there are:

"William G. Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics
Anonymous, resident of Bedford, 1941-1971.
Lois B. Wilson, co-founder of Al-Anon family
groups, resident of Bedford, 1941-1988."

0 -1 0 0
4955 jlobdell54
AA History before or after 1955 AA History before or after 1955 4/10/2008 9:26:00 AM

Some years ago (1997-8) a proposal was made
to the Trustees for a History of AA (to be
ready in 2010), but from the beginning (1935)
not from 1955.

It was, of course, not accepted. But the
terms of that proposal point up a problem.

AA COMES OF AGE does present pieces of a
history 1935-1955 from Bill's point of view.
Ernie's NOT GOD and the Barry Leach-Jack
Norris piece in Begleiter's monumental
multi-volume set do provide historical
materials up to 1977-79 (and then Ernie's
later edition into the early 1990s).

But huge amounts of local and regional
historical work are needed (over the entire
period from 1935 at least)-- and an acceptable
over-all framework needs to be set -- and we
need institutional history especially for more
recent years -- before anything like a full
history of AA from 1935 can be written (and
that by a professional historian who would
ideally also be a member of AA).

My own view, for what it's worth, is that we
cannot just begin in 1955, as though all that
had to be said for the time to 1955 had been
said in AA COMES OF AGE.

I think of two volumes for the history thus
far THE CHARISMATIC PERIOD: FROM THE BEGINNING
TO BILL'S DEATH (1934-1971) and THE PERIOD OF
ROUTINE: FROM BILL'S DEATH TO THE PRESENT
(1971-2008), and the two volumes would be
very different as the history is very
different -- but I also don't see it
happening.

0 -1 0 0
4956 jeffyour
Origin of the term "Character Defect" Origin of the term "Character Defect" 4/10/2008 9:46:00 AM

Good morning, all.

A question came up at my home group last week
and I promised to do a little digging to come
up with an 'informed' answer. Who better to
ask than all of you?

I've run a cursory search of the archives
of this discussion board and found nothing
that addresses the historical origin of the
term "Character Defects". There is nothing
as rigorous as the kind of scholarly exposure
that "contempt prior to investigation" has
received.

In message 2947:

In a July 1953 Grapevine article titled "A
Fragment of History - the Origin of the 12
Steps" Bill W identified the Oxford Group as
one of the 3 main channels of inspiration for
AA's 12 Steps. Bill identified the other 2
main channels of inspiration for the 12 Steps
as William James and Dr Silkworth.

In "AA Comes of Age" (pg 39) Bill wrote
"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination,
acknowledgment of character defects,
restitution for harm done, and working with
others straight from the Oxford Groups and
directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former
leader in America, and from nowhere else."

and in message 2460:

"From 1935 to 1948, The Upper Room was read
every morning by more AAs than any other
meditational work. Although the Oxford Group
had the greatest influence on the development
of early A.A. at the very beginning, The
Upper Room was clearly the second greatest
influence on early A.A. spirituality. You
can see the effect of ideas drawn from The
Upper Room throughout the first 164 pages of
the Big Book.

"For a quick look at the kinds of things the
Upper Room talked about, see
<http://hindsfoot.org/UpRm1.html>, which
gives selections from the readings in some
of the issues of The Upper Room published
in 1938 and 1939, along with commentary
explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew
from this source: an important part of their
understanding of what was meant by character
and character defects, the emphasis on
happiness as an inside job, the idea of the
Divine Light within, and warnings against
being too imprisoned by doctrines..."

Is this a term directly from William James?
or from Oxford Group literature (and I wonder
where THEY got it?)

thx

In grateful service,

Jeffrey A. Your
Delegate
Area 54, Panel 57
Northeast Ohio General Service

216_691_0917 home

216_397_4244 work

216_397_1803 fax

216_496_7594 cell

0 -1 0 0
4957 David
Re: AA history from 1955 to the present AA history from 1955 to the present 4/10/2008 9:02:00 PM

$384,000 was expended on a book which was
never completed or allowed to be completed.
The Trustees Literature Committee then
"agreed that it not be made available in the
Archives or anywhere else since it runs the
risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature
and could involve legal problems."

Questions:

1. Have other pieces of literature, involving
over a quarter of a million dollars in
expenditures, been banned from the archives
and kept secret?

2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee
specifically cite the actual"legal problems"
it was concerned about? What were they?

3. Did the Trustees Literature Committee
explain what risk they were referring to
when speaking of "unofficial" AA literature?

4. Does anyone know how whether or not
separate service groups like the Trustees
Literature Committee regularly dictated what
another service group, like the Archives,
could do or could not do? In other words ...
is there a hierarchy of service groups?

It seems the Trustees Literature Committee
not only made the decision to abandon a
project in which it already had made a
sizable investment, it also "buried" all
materials generated from that outlay of
$384,000. I can see the former as part of
their role, but it seems over-reaching on
the latter. Did not Archives have a point
of view? What process resolves inherent
conflicts like this? Thanks!


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss <james.bliss@...>
wrote:
>
> Below is a brief history of the attempt to
> publish the history from 1955 to the present.
> It reflects the cost and the process which
> this went through before it was finally
> discarded. I have also provided some specula-
> tion about who the various writers might have
> been, drawing that information from a few
> different resources.
>
> Hopefully this will be of interest to the
> members of this group.
>
> The time line of events was:
>
> 1988 – writer 1 prepared a manuscript which
> was provided to the Trustees Literature
> Committee. They felt it was not appropriate.
> A second writer was selected. He was unable
> to meet the deadlines needed by AAWS and was
> asked to withdraw from the project.
>
> 1991 – writer 3 was selected. She had written
> "Pass It On" and began work. A draft she
> prepared was reviewed by the Trustees
> Literature Committee and to `readers' with
> special expertise. They provided suggestions
> and comments which were incorporated.
>
> 1992 - the Conference Literature Committee
> received the `final' manuscript from writer 3
>
> 1993 – Although there was some unhappiness
> regarding the manuscript, it was forwarded on
> to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee.
> Contractual differences arose between the
> author and AAWS and writer 3 resigned
>
> 1993 – writer 4 was hired to clear up certain
> sections and write a new one. This fairly
> complete manuscript was forwarded to the 1993
> Conference Literature Committee who recommended
> the project be deferred for 2 years so that a
> new group from AA could look at it with fresh
> ideas.
>
> The project died at this time.
>
> The following was a review of the history as
> provided by AAWS:
>
> 1985 – the Conference Literature Committee
> formed a subcommittee to develop an outline
> for an in depth history from 1955 – 1985
> similar to "A.A. Comes of Age"
>
> 1986 – An outline for a definitive history
> was prepared and forwarded to the Conference
> Literature Committee for consideration. The
> Conference Literature Committee recommended
> that a definitive book on A.A. history from
> 1955 – 1985 be prepared and presented to the
> 1987 Conference.
>
> 1987 – The committee reviewed the progress
> report on the first 13 rough chapters. It was
> indicated that the first draft manuscript to
> included 26 chapters of approximately 700
> pages would be ready by the January 1988
> deadline.
>
> 1988 – The committee reviewed the cover letter
> and table of contents of the first draft
> manuscript of the A.A. History Book and
> recommended that it be referred to the
> Conference Literature Committee. The 1988
> Conference recommended that work continue on
> the A.A. History Book.
>
> Following the Conference, the committee
> affirmed:
>
> - the Trustees Literature Committee will
> assume responsibility for this project through
> a subcommittee
>
> - the publications director will be asked to
> find a writer whose specialty is history and
> that the current writer will continue the
> effort of obtaining missing area histories
>
> - it was the consensus of the committee that
> the section on area histories should be treated
> as a separate archival project
>
> - it was suggested that the Conference
> Literature Committee be asked for suggestions
> with regard to how the material should be
> handled
>
> 1989 – The area histories were separated from
> the first manuscript and forwarded to the
> Archives Committee on the recommendation of
> the 1989 Conference Literature Committee
>
> Writers experienced in producing historical
> reviews were asked to submit outlines for the
> subcommittee prior to the Conference so that
> a status report could be prepared for the
> Conference Literature Committee. The sub-
> committee selected a writer and a timetable
> with estimated completion in January, 1991.
> The Conference Literature Committee recommended
> that the A.A. History from 1955 forwarded
> focusing on major events and developments
> since the co-founders turned A.A. over to
> the Fellowship, rather than centering on the
> beginnings of A.A. and histories of the 91
> areas of the U.S. and Canada be continued.
>
> 1990 – the subcommittee's review of the outline
> and draft chapters led to a re-emphasis of the
> guidelines along with the suggestion for
> stronger editorial control, and recommended
> that the summary of progress be provided to
> the Conference Literature Committee, along
> with the reaffirmation that draft copies not
> be circulated in advance of the completion
> of the manuscript. In late February the sub-
> committee and author part and the search for
> a replacement was undertaken. An experienced
> writer, with broad background with A.A.
> literature was subsequently hired). The
> Conference Literature Committee recommended
> that the project continue to completion. This
> became a Conference Action.
>
> 1991 – the subcommittee reported that the
> project was on schedule with the manuscript
> to be delivered by March, 1992.
>
> 1992 – The Trustees Literature Committee
> recommended that the A.A. History Book be
> forwarded to the Conference Literature Commit-
> tee. The Conference Literature Committee
> recommended that the manuscript be returned
> to the 1992 Conference Literature Committee
> and then forwarded to the 1993 Conference
> Literature Committee.
>
> 1993 – A.A. History Book completed draft
> manuscript was forwarded to the Conference
> Literature Committee which recommended that
> the project be deferred for 2 years so that
> a new team of A.A. servants can look at the
> history book with fresh ideas.
>
> 1996 – Trustees Literature Committee discussed
> and did not approve a request to revive the
> History Book project. Conference Literature
> Committee recommendation NOT adopted by the
> Conference: "That the manuscript originally
> commissioned as a history book be relabeled
> "collected observations of Alcoholics Anonymous"
> and that it be placed in the Archives and made
> available for purchase at a cost upon request
> after editing for anonymity and various speci-
> fic concerns relating to accuracy of content
> and style.
>
> 1997 – The Trustees Literature Committee
> discussed requests regarding the draft of
> the A.A. History Book written by <writer 3
> from the first description above> (and others)
> and agreed that it not be made available
> in the Archives or anywhere else since it
> runs the risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.
> literature and could involve legal problems.
>
> 1998 – the Trustees Literature Committee
> forwarded to the Conference Literature
> Committee an area request that a second
> history book be developed. The Conference
> Literature Committee agreed there was no
> compelling need to develop this project.
>
> Expenses:
>
> Paid 86 – 92
>
> 224,000
> 117,000
> _______
>
> 341,000 (sub total)
>
> 1992 - 5,000
>
> 1992 - 8,000
>
> 1993 - 26,000
> _______
>
> 380,000 (total)
>
> From some information I was provided (from
> Glenn C. on this list) and the documentation
> which I have, I am speculating:
>
> Writer 1 was Bob Pearsons - this is pure
> speculation but appears to be well founded
> from the follow up email. The alternative is
> that he is writer 2 since the group history
> was not the focus of his material and writer 1
> appeared to focus more on the history of the
> groups rather that AAWS.
>
> Writer 2 was Charles Hanson – this is pure
> speculation – perhaps he was writer 1 if
> his material was more focused on the groups
> than AAWS.
>
> Writer 3 was Catherine Noren – from my
> documentation
>
> Writer 4 - ???? - this appears to be a fairly
> minor role, one of cleaning up and not adding
> much substantive content.
>
> - - - -
>
> Message 4942 from ArtSheehan@...
> (ArtSheehan at msn.com) said:
>
> "The attempt to write an AA history from 1955
> had to be abandoned. I suspect Conference
> approval for any type of historical work would
> be one heck of a major challenge (and probably
> rightfully so)."
>
> - - - -
>
> Message 4944 from "Mel Barger"
> melb@...
> (melb at accesstoledo.com) said:
>
> "You referred to the ill-starred attempt to
> produce an AA history covering the period from
> 1955 on. I understand that this failed because
> delegates were unhappy with the histories of
> their own areas, for various reasons. The
> project was finally shelved after spending a
> small fortune producing a version. It
> did get out somehow, and I have a copy for
> occasional reference, but there is no approved
> copy anywhere. I've concluded that AA will
> never have an authorized history covering
> this period; the job will be left to outside
> writers by default."
>

0 -1 0 0
4958 jlobdell54
Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 4/11/2008 5:27:00 PM

Cleveland Indians vs. Chicago White Sox,
WP Bob Feller LP Edgar Smith. Score 1-0.

Only run was batted in by Catcher Rollie
Hemsley.

An autographed game ball was given by Rollie
to Dr. Bob and I believe is in the collection
at Brown. I believe Bob Feller may still be
alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone
has approached him for his recollections of
Rollie, or if indeed they exist already.

0 -1 0 0
4959 Al Welch
Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 4/10/2008 8:53:00 AM

From Al Welch and junebug0619

- - - -

From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>
(welch at a-1associates.com)

Another definition of Conference-approved is
that it is owned by, printed by and distributed
only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't
necessarily think that is a bad thing - it
just sounds that way!)

- - - -

From: junebug0619@aol.com
(junebug0619 at aol.com)

I agree that there are many helpful books
outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous
is a text book for sobriety. I need info for
the heart and soul.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
To: <aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955


>I guess Conference-approved means that that
> literature carries the imprimatur, or at
> least endorsement, of the Fellowship's
> collective group conscience; but as the
> Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many
> helpful books also. Suggestions about these
> may be obtained from one's priest, minister
> or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,
> I would add - or from Amazon or a library!

0 -1 0 0
4960 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 4/11/2008 4:01:00 PM

From Jerry Logsdon and Buck R.

- - - -

From Jerry Logsdon <aalogsdon@aol.com>
(aalogsdon at aol.com)

I have talked to Bob Feller on three different
occasions about Rollie Hemsley and had him
sign baseballs IN MEMORY OF ROLLIE HEMSLEY.
I have a large collection of Hemsley photos
and some of these Feller identified for me and
recalled incidents about the photographs. He
was still sharp and knows a great deal about
Hemsley.

He (Feller) will be appearing in person at his
museum in Van Meter, Iowa on Saturday, June 21.
The phone number there is 515_996_2806.

I have been communicating with a gentleman who
is in the process of writing a book regarding
Hemsley and have shared information with him.
I have four autographed baseballs from Hemsley
and more items.

Jerry Logsdon
714_321_7665

- - - -

From: Buck R. = Jonathan Rose
<jbuckrose1@mac.com> (jbuckrose1 at mac.com)

In his book "Now Pitching, Bob Feller: A
Baseball Memoir", Feller makes numerous
mention of Rollie Hemsley. Feller, by the
way, is the second oldest living Baseball
Hall of Famer.

On page 16 he talks about "Rollickin'
Rollie Hemsley and his alcohol-inspired
Superman feats like tip-toeing along hotel
ledges ten floors above downtown streets";

On page 73: "But I've always had enormous
respect for Rollie Hemsley because he did
something that the rest of us might not have
been strong enough to do. Cy Slapnicka
convinced Rollie to join Alcoholics Anonymous
after he got off to such a rocky start with
us in 1938. As an incentive, Slap gave a
large diamond ring to Rollie's daughter, the
person who meant more to him than anyone else
in the world. It worked. Rollie took the
pledge. He drank about a case of Cokes a day
for a while because he needed that sugar that
he wasn't getting from booze any more, but he
never went back to the hard stuff."

(Note: Cy Slapnicka was the Indians' General
Manager)

in fellowship,
Buck R.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Rollie Hemsley = Ralston Burdett Hemsley

photo at
http://www.aabibliography.com/aahtml3/rollynews.jpg

photo and part of his story at
http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/catchers/hemsley.htm

photo and brief story at
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Rollie_Hemsley_1907

0 -1 0 0
4961 Arthur Sheehan
Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955 4/12/2008 1:44:00 AM

Hi Al

GSO does not have an ownership role. I don't
mean to split hairs but at times the acronym
"GSO" is used when the correct acronym is
"AAWS." AA World Services, Inc (AAWS) and
AA Grapevine, Inc are the legal corporate
entities that hold and preserve copyrights,
trademarks and service marks owned by AA.
The GSO also produces a number of literature
items that are not Conference-approved (i.e.
service pieces).

Page S70 of the Service Manual states: "The
General Service Board is responsible for the
General Service Office and the Grapevine, and
it takes care of its administrative duties
through two operating corporations. One is
A.A. World Services, Inc., which oversees the
General Service Office and publishes A.A.’s
books and pamphlets. The other is The A.A.
Grapevine, Inc., which oversees the Grapevine
office and publishes and distributes the A.A.
Grapevine magazine, the Spanish edition,
La Viña, and related items. The two entities
need to be incorporated in order to accomplish
such tasks as publishing and distributing
literature, handling funds, and conducting
other vital aspects of A.A.’s business."

Cheers
Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Welch
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 7:53 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955

From Al Welch and junebug0619

- - - -

From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>
(welch at a-1associates.com)

Another definition of Conference-approved is
that it is owned by, printed by and distributed
only by the GSO in New York City. (and I don't
necessarily think that is a bad thing - it
just sounds that way!)

- - - -

From: junebug0619@aol.com
(junebug0619 at aol.com)

I agree that there are many helpful books
outside the realm of AA. Alcoholics Anonymous
is a text book for sobriety. I need info for
the heart and soul.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jenny andrews" <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
To: <aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:22 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Conf-approv literature & AA history from 1955


>I guess Conference-approved means that that
> literature carries the imprimatur, or at
> least endorsement, of the Fellowship's
> collective group conscience; but as the
> Big Book itself reminds us, "There are many
> helpful books also. Suggestions about these
> may be obtained from one's priest, minister
> or rabbi." And as an open-minded agnostic,
> I would add - or from Amazon or a library!

0 -1 0 0
4962 gmaxham
Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill 4/12/2008 2:50:00 PM

Hello

Can you tell me what these records are? A man
here in Maine has a set of three.

I think I can get them recorded if they're
worth doing. He wants to leave them with his
family. But I've been working on it with him.

Thank you,

Gordon Maxham
Area 28 archivist


Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill
on red records.

I should explain a little more, I think I know
what's on the records. Just have never seen on
red records. Are these originals or what? Have
researched the Internet for two or three years
and still have never seen red records like
these.

Thank you Gordon

0 -1 0 0
4963 gmaxham
Early AA member Mary Martto Early AA member Mary Martto 4/12/2008 3:02:00 PM

We have a first edition first printing Big
Book with all kinds of interesting signatures
from Stepping Stones.

The woman's name that it belonged to is
Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman
is? We were told she is the second or third
woman in AA.

Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham

0 -1 0 0
4964 ricktompkins
Re: AA history from 1955 to the present AA history from 1955 to the present 4/11/2008 11:44:00 PM

Frank B., a past Chicago Area 19 Delegate to the Conference in the early
1990s, sat on Trustees Literature Committee as an Appointed Committee Member
in the mid-to-late 1990s. It was not a glorious post because the ACMs had
large tasks to perform for the Literature Committee. Frank shared one of his
assignments: the immense editing on our second AA History book that the
Trustees Literature Committee had undertaken in conjunction with an AA
Archives request. Simply, there had to be some of the writing that could be
available to the Fellowship as an accessible history, to aid in further
research. This was the last effort for an AA historybook (the one that
followed Bob P.'s effort in the 1980s) and has David's list of questions on
much of the process.

The General Service Conference's Conference Literature Committee reviewed
the manuscript as presented by Trustees Literature Committee in 1993 and
found it lacking a needed AA vitality and general relevance. Eventually the
edited manuscript was placed in the AA Archives with the AA Archivist's
notice (with the full support of the Trustees Archives Committee) that any
legitimate AA Archives Committee (Area or District) could receive copied
sections from the manuscript that related to the requestor's specific Region
and location.

I served my Illinois Area 20 as Archivist from 1998-2002 and received a copy
from the section written about history in the East Central Region (the Great
Lakes, from Wisconsin east to Ohio). Believe me, it was too dry to keep my
own interest. What the authors considered as relevant appeared to me as
irrelevant---name dropping, vague site descriptions, and no real coherence
or continuity in the chronicle. And, if this historybook was supposed to
detail AA's history past 1955, why did it have the supposed origins of ECR
groups back to the 1940s? The facts were generally incorrect and too vague,
very few 'interviewees' contributed what the manuscript presented as fact,
and so on. I can agree with the 1993 Conference Literature Committee that
this work was not up to any AA standard of excellence.

I am cynical to share that the manuscript could have been chapters that were
struck from "Dr. Bob and the Oldtimers," but my disappointment in the work
was that there was too little of the history it was supposed to be i.e.
post-1955 AA. That's the main reason that the edited manuscript is titled
"Collected Observations of AA." There was nothing comprehensive about it,
just a few tidbits of detail that only a few AA historians could sink their
teeth into. And, as an AA Historian, I found the writing as misleading.

The sets of authors (three?) tried, and short of a breach of contract
lawsuit against the General Service Board, all were paid for their
professional services.



Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of Age" as the Fellowship's initial
history effort? Bill assembled the chapters and stories in that work like
the adventure he had witnessed during our formative years. And longtime AAs
received it that way, ensuring future AA generations that it had great
relevance and provenance! AACA has many contributors and tells the
'adventure' of a developed unity out of many divergent positions of how: how
AA grew, how AAs served, how AA may have fallen short, and most importantly
how AA survived.

Perhaps the next Fellowship-wide history draft could keep this perspective
in sight.

AACA is a very tough 'act' to follow---with the Conference disapproval and
failure of the two historybook efforts through the 1990s, a general
consensus began to develop, and seemed to replace the
"AA-as-a-whole-history" need (rather a 'want' no?) with a sense that local
(anywhere from an AA District to an AA Area to an AA Region) histories could
be completed.

In late 1993, after the debacle of this second history book effort failed
the approval of the Conference, discussion here in Northern Illinois was as
simple as this: if the Conference can't get a history completed and pass
muster, we can! Not fully cognizant of the implications, I volunteered to
attempt to write it. My service at that time was two years of District
Archives development (from scratch!), two years as a District Secretary, and
eight years of sobriety with a love and appreciation of AA's heritage. The
Assembly approved my proposal and I went to work at it. Please note that
this sharing is not so much about me but can serve as an example of one AA's
effort to preserve our message for future AAs. As written in the Preface, it
turns out that the joy is in the search and discovery.

The AA Archives assisted with answering any question I had, and the
Archivist at the time, Frank M., provided me actual letters and relatively
confidential information with my own commitment to protect its anonymity.
The Chicago Archives (at the time, scattered around the Area Office)was also
a huge resource. The Chicago Historical Society had very relevant Illinois
AA items, too, previously contributed from a 1989 Chicago Archives
Committee.

A close friend and past Area 20 (n. Illinois) Delegate and past Area
Archives Committee Chair, Hank G., turned out to be my "Pathfinder" on the
research.

My own Area's Archives had its fist extensive sorting and cataloguing
completed as a result. Two years later, sufficiently humbled that my Area
had something relevant and accurate, I enlisted an Ad Hoc committee of ten
longtimers and trusted servants to review it---think of a friendly Grand
Jury investigation that could call any detail into question for me to prove
as cross-referenced and double-checked.

The Area Assembly approved the proposal to print it in June 1996, and 1500
historybooks were distributed and/or purchased until it was considered as
out-of-print. By 2002, it was posted on the Area website as a massive Adobe
Acrobat Reader document. By 2001, further research brought my proposal to
update the book into a Second Issue, and my Assembly approved the venture.
In 2003, the same review process took place as had happened in 1996, and
this time the entire work was re-written with the reviewing help of a close
AA friend with a 'magna cum laude' B.A. degree in English literature. The
Second Issue's Assembly-approved printing was scaled down to 300 books that
were distributed and/or purchased within two years...But, as planned, it was
intended to be posted on the Area website, where it remains "in print" today
(as an even larger PDF file). Go to www.aa-nia.org and search for it!



Conference approval is a lengthy and complicated process that proves the
description of AA's prudent speed of "Slow, or Stopped."

Thankfully my Area's speed was "slow" about publishing its own history.

I believe that if a post-1955 AA history is written with the caliber and
details of a "Not-God" or "AA Comes Of Age" effort, it would still have a
rough time getting through our Conference's committee system. But I could be
wrong.

Meanwhile, many efforts continue with significant results for our AA history
and most of those efforts and publishing have been discussed and announced
here in this egroup. There are many successes that parallel what happened
in Northern Illinois Area here!

As a simple "member" of my Area Archives Committee today, thanks for
hearing my view.

Rick, Illinois









From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:03 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA history from 1955 to the present

$384,000 was expended on a book which was
never completed or allowed to be completed.
The Trustees Literature Committee then
"agreed that it not be made available in the
Archives or anywhere else since it runs the
risk of becoming `unofficial' A.A.literature
and could involve legal problems."
Questions:
1. Have other pieces of literature, involving
over a quarter of a million dollars in
expenditures, been banned from the archives
and kept secret?
2. Did the Trustees Literature Committee
specifically cite the actual"legal problems"
it was concerned about? What were they?
<SNIP>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
4965 Cindy Miller
Re: Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 Opening Day No-Hitter April 16 1940 4/12/2008 12:29:00 PM

On Apr 11, 2008, at 5:27 PM, jlobdell54 wrote:

> I believe Bob Feller may still be
> alive at 89 or so -- I don't know if anyone
> has approached him for his recollections of
> Rollie, or if indeed they exist already.

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

He is still alive--indeed, I heard him
just a few weeks ago on a sports radio
show--lamenting the new era of pitch counts,
the DH, set-up pitchers and closers, and
other MLB innovations!

-cm

`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

- - - -

From: "Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

There is a baseball signed by the 1948 World
Series Champion Cleveland Indians at Brown
University in the Robert H. Smith collection.
The ball is signed by the entire team, incl.
Rollie Hemsley. I have pictures if anyone is
interested.

Chris

0 -1 0 0
4966 James Blair
Re: AA history from 1955 to the present AA history from 1955 to the present 4/13/2008 4:46:00 PM

Rick wrote:

> Can we go back to Bill W. and "AA Comes Of
> Age" as the Fellowship's initial history
> effort? Bill assembled the chapters and
> stories in that work like the adventure he
> had witnessed during our formative years.

If you have a set of tapes from the Conference
in St. Louis in 1955, it is easy to note that
most of the text is transscribed from the tapes.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
4967 junebug0619@aol.com
Re: Early AA member Mary Martto Early AA member Mary Martto 4/14/2008 12:11:00 AM

Could the signature be "Marty Mann" instead of
"Mary Martto"?

- - - -

In a message dated 4/13/2008 3:26:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
gmaxham@yahoo.com writes:

We have a first edition first printing Big
Book with all kinds of interesting signatures
from Stepping Stones.

The woman's name that it belonged to is
Mary Martto. Does anyone know who this woman
is? We were told she is the second or third
woman in AA.

Area 28 archivist Gordon Maxham

0 -1 0 0
4968 Carol W
Reader''s Digest Reader''s Digest 4/13/2008 7:23:00 PM

Hello,

I was wondering how many stories about AA
figures were printed in the Reader's Digest
Condensed Books? Whose stories were printed?

I know of only 2 stories: "My name is Bill W."
& "Bill W" by Robert Thomsen.

I am interested in finding more books in the
Reader's Digest series, including AA people
in addition to Bill W.

Thank you,
Carol W

0 -1 0 0
4969 dijmo
Historical Perspective on the ICYPAA conference Historical Perspective on the ICYPAA conference 4/14/2008 10:55:00 PM

The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008
in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org

We have been working with the program commit-
tee to get a slot on the program for a panel
meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely
title for this panel is "Historical Perspective
on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that
hosted ICYPAA over the decades).

We would like to have three prearranged
panelists, one that was involved in hosting
an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was
involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the
70's and one from the 80's.

After each of these folks have shared a little
bit about what it was like and what it meant
for their sobriety, we will open it up for
sharing from the floor.

For those of you who may know of Bill D., he
has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker.
Bill was involved in organizing the first
ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second!
If that's not enough, he first came to AA at
age 19, in New York and attended meetings with
Bill W. and many other early AAs.

Lizzie Schrock
Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
lizzieschrock@hotmail.com
530/906/9854

or

Melanie Elliott
Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
melhermann@aol.com
323/356/0432

0 -1 0 0
4970 corafinch
Re: Origin of the term "Character Defect" Origin of the term "Character Defect" 4/15/2008 9:28:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"jeffyour" <jyour@...> wrote:
>
> I've run a cursory search of the archives
> of this discussion board and found nothing
> that addresses the historical origin of the
> term "Character Defects".

- - - -

The opening paragraph from a 1928 book, The
Psychology of Character, With a Survey of
Temperment, A.A. Roback, author:

"There is one department of psychology in
which no progress has been made for about two
thousand years, in spite of the fact that it
was perhaps the first topic to attract
attention . . . .the interlocked subject
character and temperament which, though
forming the core of any study of human nature,
have continued to remain in the speculative
stage, while other psychological material was
being subjected to experimental scrutiny. Only
recently have these siblings been examined
anew under the more comprehensive head of
personality. . ."

"Defects of character" was an expression used
commonly in the late 19th-early 20th centuries.
I don't think you will be able to find a
specific source for Wilson's use of it. The
phrase "defects of character" as used then
might be similar to what psychologists today
would call "personality disorders" if they
are present in a severe form. In traditional
psychological theory these are felt to be
relatively immutable once childhood has
passed.

Where James comes into it, is that he believed
strongly in the changeability of character
through overwhelming transformational experi-
ences of a mystical type. The Oxford Groupers
adopted the Jamesian (pragmatic) view and
morphed it with a brand of "second blessing"
theology which was by then a little dated.
They brushed it off and polished it up with
some dynamic-psychology theory so it would
have a wider appeal.

Cora

0 -1 0 0
4971 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill 4/13/2008 9:29:00 PM

I believe that they have already been put on
CDs. I have a set of three of these red
recordings and have them loaned out to a taper.

I think they are recordings of Bill W made in
1947. Can do follow-up if necessary.

0 -1 0 0
4972 Glenn Chesnut
Stepping Stones Annual Picnic Stepping Stones Annual Picnic 4/18/2008 8:58:00 PM

From: "Stepping Stones" <info@steppingstones.org>
(info at steppingstones.org)

Dear Friend of Stepping Stones -

Spring has definitely come to Stepping Stones,
the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson in
Bedford, New York. The daffodils and tulips
are in bloom, the annual picnic is soon upon
us and visitors are waking up from a long
winter's nap and stopping by for guided tours
daily.

Spring brings important updates for the
Stepping Stones family - people like you.

The 56th Annual Picnic is Saturday,
June 7, 2008, at noon. It's only a one-hour
train ride from New York City, so please
be sure to join us and help spread the
word! For a flyer or more information,
please visit the new and improved website
at www.steppingstones.org

0 -1 0 0
4973 Bill Lash
A.A. History Weekend, East Dorset VT, 8/22-24/08 A.A. History Weekend, East Dorset VT, 8/22-24/08 4/19/2008 8:08:00 AM

A.A. History Weekend - The Stories
and Pictures of How A.A. Began

with Mitchell K., Bill McN., & Barefoot Bill

August 22-24, 2008

at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson, AA
co-founder, was born)

378 Village Street
East Dorset, VT 05253

To register for the weekend & reserve a room,
please call the Wilson House at 802/362/5524.
____________________

Mitchell K. is author of the book about his
sponsor called "How It Worked: The Story of
Clarence Snyder & the Early Days of A.A. in
Cleveland, Ohio." He has also collaborated
with several other authors on books relating
to AA history.

Bill McN. will be performing live his popular
plays titled "Moments - An Evening With Bill
W." and "Scapedream - Dr. Bob...Pure & Simple".

A video performance of his Lois W. play will
also be shown (she was Bill W.'s wife and
co-founder of Al-Anon).

Barefoot Bill will be doing a three-hour talk
and picture show called "An AA History Present-
ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA".
____________________

SCHEDULE:

Friday night 8/22/08 (after the regularly
scheduled AA meeting) - Lois Wilson one-woman
play video

Saturday morning 8/23/08 9:00 to 10:20am -
Bill McN. performing live his Dr. Bob one-man
play

Saturday morning 8/23/08 10:40 to 12noon -
Mitchell K. talk/presentation

Saturday afternoon 8/23/08 1:00 to 4:00pm
(w/break) - Barefoot Bill's AA History Present-
ation with 250 Pictures of Early AA

Saturday night 8/23/08 (after the regularly
scheduled AA meeting) - Clarence Snyder video
talk

Sunday morning 8/24/08 9:00 to 10:20am -
Mitchell K. talk/presentation

Sunday morning 8/24/08 10:40 to 12noon -
Bill McN. performing live his Bill Wilson
one-man play

0 -1 0 0
4974 jlobdell54
Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown 4/16/2008 5:38:00 PM

I don't have a picture of the ball, but my
impression had been that it was from 1940,
when Rollie, recently sober through AA, was a
member of the Cleveland Indians and caught
Bob Feller's no-hitter, and not from 1948,
when Rollie had retired (and in any case so
far as I know his last year with the Indians
was 1941). Not to say he couldn't have gotten
and signed a 1948 team ball for Dr. Bob (I
know he managed in AAA ball at Columbus in
1950, so he could have been in Ohio -- and
perhaps he coached for Cleveland in 1948,
though I don't remember him there), but in
any case I'm curious. Key signatures to show
1948 would probably be Joe Gordon and Satchel
Paige.

0 -1 0 0
4975 johnhartie
bills story bills story 4/17/2008 4:18:00 AM

In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed
the ticker said xyz-32. Is that a minus sign
before the 32?

- - - -

From the moderator: (Big Book p. 4) the stock
whose symbol on the stock ticker was XYZ-32,
was Penick & Ford, which tumbled from 52 to 32
in a single day.

But what can our experts on the stock market
tell us? Was this a minus sign in front of
the number 32?

0 -1 0 0
4976 Glenn Chesnut
Early proposed BB cover Early proposed BB cover 4/20/2008 7:17:00 PM

From: "Dirk Dierking" wsmaugham21@yahoo.com
(wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com)

At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you
can see a picture which I found, showing what
I have been told is an early proposed cover
design for the Big Book.

What can you tell me about who designed
this particular cover, and that person's
story and life?

Also about whoever designed the cover that
ended up being used for the first edition
of the Big Book, and the whole story of how
the first cover was chosen?

Peace,

Dirk

0 -1 0 0
4977 Mitchell K.
Re: Early proposed BB cover Early proposed BB cover 4/20/2008 8:29:00 PM

Responses from Mitchell K., Rick Tomkins, and
Arthur Sheehan

- - - -

From: "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

I'm sure there will be lots of responses, but...

The cover was designed by Ray Campbell. Ray was an
early NY member and an artist who lived in Carmel (or
Lake Carmel), NY (Putnam County) and his story AN
ARTIST'S CONCEPT appeared in the First Edition of the
Big Book. Ray also was the person who designed the
so-called "Circus" Dust Jacket which was chosen. The
original cover is located at the archives of the
Stepping Stones Foundation, former home of Bill and
Lois in the Bedford Hills (Westchester County) NY
area. Carmel, NY is not that far from Stepping Stones.

This Ray Campbell is not the same as the artist of the
same name born in 1956 in the UK.

- - - -

From: "ricktompkins" <ricktompkins@comcast.net>
(ricktompkins at comcast.net)

This is the blue "Their Pathway To A Cure"
cover. The same artist designed the yellow,
red, and white cover that was used on all
First Edition dust jackets and one that most
AAs can easily recognize.

The early AAs selected the second and called
it the 'circus' dust cover because of its
bright color arrangement.

And, the illustrator's story "An Artist's
Concept" was printed in First Editions, now
in the AAWS Experience, Strength, and Hope.

Notably, the author made the first reference
to Spencer's "contempt prior to investigation"
quote (misquoted and/or unattributed to
Herbert Spencer) that later was added to the
Big Book's "Spiritual Experience" appendix.

Enjoy the draft that was not selected; perhaps
it was too frighteningly compelling. The
second, selected cover had no images, just
the uncomplicated script lettering. To me,
both were very "art deco."

Rick, Illinois

- - - -

From: "Arthur Sheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com)

Hi Dirk

The brightly colored yellow and red dust
jacket usually associated with the first
edition Big Book is sometimes called the
"circus color" dust jacket. It was designed
by Ray C (Campbel) whose 1st edition Big Book
story is "An Artist's Concept."

Ray also designed an art deco style dust
jacket that was never used. It's the dust
jacket you are inquiring about. I believe a
painting of it is on display at Steppingstones
but I can't verify this as fact.

As an item of AA trivial pursuit, Ray C began
his story with a quotation he attributed to
Herbert Spencer which said: "There is a
principle which is a bar against all informa-
tion, which is proof against all arguments
and which cannot fail to keep a man in ever-
lasting ignorance - that principle is contempt
prior to investigation."

Ray's story was not included in the 2nd edition
Big Book. However, the quotation and attribution
were added to Appendix II "Spiritual Experience"
when the 2nd edition Big Book was published in
1955. It has since been found out that the
quotation should be attributed to an English
clergyman, author and college lecturer by the
name of William Paley who lived from 1743 to
1805.

Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Original message from: "Dirk Dierking"
<wsmaugham21@yahoo.com>
wsmaugham21 at yahoo.com)
>
> At http://hindsfoot.org/private.html you
> can see a picture which I found, showing what
> I have been told is an early proposed cover
> design for the Big Book.
>
> What can you tell me about who designed
> this particular cover, and that person's
> story and life?
>
> Also about whoever designed the cover that
> ended up being used for the first edition
> of the Big Book, and the whole story of how
> the first cover was chosen?
>
> Peace,
>
> Dirk

0 -1 0 0
4978 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Big Book cover and Ray Campbell Big Book cover and Ray Campbell 4/23/2008 1:53:00 PM

Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell,
who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have
been discussing:

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm

An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell
New York City
p. 380 in 1st edition

Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938.

He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer:
"There is a principle which is a bar against
all information, which is proof against all
arguments and which can not fail to keep a man
in everlasting ignorance-that principle is
contempt prior to investigation."

He said that the quotation is descriptive of
the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when
the subject of religion, as a cure, is first
brought to their attention. "It is only when
a man has tried everything else, when in utter
desperation and terrific need he turns to
something bigger than himself, that he gets
a glimpse of the way out. It is then that
contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by
fulfillment."

Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual
help rather than "a description of the neurotic
drinking that made the search necessary."

After investigating his alcoholic problem from
every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry,
and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with
religion as a possible way out. He had been
approaching God intellectually. That only
added to his desperation, but a seed had been
planted.

Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson,
who had for five years "devoted a great deal
of time and energy to helping alcoholics."
The man told him little he didn't already know,
"but what he did have to say was bereft of all
fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple
Christianity imparted with Divine Power."

The next day he met over twenty men who "had
achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism."

He liked them because the were ordinary men
who were not pious nor "holier than thous."

He notes that these men were but instruments.
"Of themselves they were nothing."

He must have been an intellectual type. He not
only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men
lead lives of quiet desperation."

It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked
to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition
of the Big Book. He submitted various designs
for consideration including one that was blue
and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was
red, and yellow, with a little black, and a
little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous
were printed across the top in large white
script. It became known as the circus jacket
because of its loud circus colors. The unused
blue jacket is today in the Archives at the
Stepping Stones Foundation.

His story was not included in the Second
Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote
was placed in the back of the book in
Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience."

0 -1 0 0
4979 Chris Budnick
RE: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown 4/20/2008 8:43:00 PM

I visited the collection at Brown University
in May 2007. The ball that is there is from
the 1948 World Series Champion, Cleveland
Indians. I can email pictures I took while
there. I have been through the entire
collection at Brown between my trip in May
2007 and later in September.

Chris

<cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

0 -1 0 0
4980 jlobdell54
Signed Indians Baseball at Brown Signed Indians Baseball at Brown 4/20/2008 10:35:00 PM

Chris very kindly sent me three views of the
baseball signed by Rollie Hemsley and identi-
fied as a 1948 World Series ball.

The signatures of Joe Dobson (CLE 1939-40
only), Johnny Allen (CLE 1936-40 only), Floyd
Stromme (1939 only), Bruce Campbell (CLE
1935-39 only), and others, identify the ball
as either late 1939 or (much less likely
because Campbell was traded to DET by
Opening Day 1940) very early (Opening
Day) 1940.

In any case, despite the label, it's not
from 1948. Most likely 1939 when Feller was
24-9 with 296 SO and Hemsley batted .263.

0 -1 0 0
4981 greatcir
Re: Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown Ball in Dr Bob Collection at Brown 4/20/2008 11:11:00 PM

In October, 2005 I visited Brown University
and read through a number of boxes related to
Dr. Bob and Clarence Snyder. Very few of the
boxes had been cataloged and a few of them
had plain grocery plastic bags full of loose
correspondence, post cards, Works Publishing
auditor reports, etc.

A box, labled Box 2, had Dr. Bob's wallet with
his Social Security card (1937) in it, a small
pouch of old medical instruments, a folder
on how form a group (1950), and a baseball
related to Helmsley per the box description.

I have a date of 1948 next to the baseball
note in my file but have no recollection of
where this date came from nor do I remember
examining the baseball for any autographs.
I was not permitted to take any photographs.

A box that was labled Box 1 held an old coffee
pot. It was reported to be from Dr' Bob's house
and was refered to as the "Holy Grail" of the
AA materials in the Brown collection in their
description of the collection in 2005.

I do recall the archives person from Brown not
being very excited about my examination of any
of these materials. They were much more relaxed
about me simply reading the text of materials
in the other boxes.

In previous months I had spent time at Stepping
Stones reviewing primarily the last 90 days of
Bill's life. I was hoping to see something
about the waning period of Dr. Bob's days at
Brown but found nothing in the boxes I reviewed.

I did not see all of the "boxes" and it was
hit or miss on which box I would ask to see
the mext day as it took 24 hours to get a box.

There was a lot of correspondence on royalties
(Bill, Bob, Sue Windows, Barry Leach, etc.) as
well as many disrelated text items.

One day at a time,

Pete K.

0 -1 0 0
4982 amielmelnick
AA in Latin America AA in Latin America 4/22/2008 8:40:00 AM

Hello everyone,

I'm doing research on the history of AA in
Latin America (Mexico, Central and South
America) - how the first groups were started,
how they spread, any secessions or diffi-
culties starting groups (I've been reading
what has been posted here about the Mexico
separation).

I wonder if any of you have information about
other parts of the history of AA in Latin
America, or suggestions for good places to
look? I realize this is a bit broader than
the kinds of questions you usually get, but
I'm just a beginner!

Thanks, and all best,

Amiel

0 -1 0 0
4983 giftpurple
Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac 4/22/2008 8:38:00 AM

What is the history behind the book "Easy
Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s
book about an alcoholic man.

The basic bibliographic information is:

Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the
millions who as yet do not know.
by Hugh Reilly, pseud.
Type: Book; English
Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]
OCLC: 2662794
Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.

There is a review written by Robert E. L.
Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:
The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the
American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,
No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by
the University of Chicago Press)

0 -1 0 0
4984 junebug0619@aol.com
Re: Bill''s story and XYZ-32 on stock ticker Bill''s story and XYZ-32 on stock ticker 4/20/2008 11:01:00 PM

Responses from junebug, John Lee, and Mike Barns

- - - -

From: junebug0619@aol.com
(junebug0619 at aol.com)

If a person is following the action of any one
company, he would have to know the stock symbol
of that company to read its action on the
ticker tape. Let us take as an example the
Coca-Cola Company with the symbol KO. The
tape would show:

KO - the ticker symbol of the company

9M - the amount of shares traded, in this
case M stands for million, as K would stand
for a thousand and B for a billion

@ - at 60.79 - the last bid price in that day
per share of stock and up or down arrow - to
show the direction of change

0.83 - the amount of change

According to the above example in the Big Book,
the stock market was 52 dropping 32 points.

- - - -

From: John Lee <johnlawlee@yahoo.com>
(johnlawlee at yahoo.com)

A stock price can never be below zero. Unlike
partners, stockholders cannot be assessed when
a company has a negative value.
john lee
Pittsburgh

- - - -

From: Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>
(mikeb384 at verizon.net)

I am no expert on the stock market, but stock
prices are not quoted in negative values; they
are removed from the board. A single day drop
from 52 to 32 is calamitous indeed, and could
be considered ruinous for most.

Mike B.

- - - -

Original message from "johnhartie"
<johnhartie@yahoo.com> (johnhartie at yahoo.com)

In "Bill's Story" when the stockmarket crashed
the ticker said XYZ-32. Is that a minus sign
before the 32?

0 -1 0 0
4985 James Blair
Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac 4/23/2008 4:21:00 PM

There is a persistent rumour that the book
was written by Bill Wilson in order to raise
monies for the retirement of Dr. Silkworth.

I don't know if a computer analysis of the
writing styles was ever done.

Jim

**************************************

Original Message: 4983
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983
From: "giftpurple" <Jifgift@aol.com>
(Jifgift at aol.com)

What is the history behind the book "Easy
Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s
book about an alcoholic man.

The basic bibliographic information is:

Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the
millions who as yet do not know.
by Hugh Reilly, pseud.
Type: Book; English
Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]
OCLC: 2662794
Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.

There is a review written by Robert E. L.
Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:
The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the
American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,
No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by
the University of Chicago Press)

0 -1 0 0
4986 Chris Budnick
Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac 4/24/2008 1:15:00 AM

In Dale Mitchell's biography, Silkworth -
The Little Doctor Who Loved Drunks, Mitchell
suggests that Easy Does It was written by
Silkworth under the pseudonym Hugh Reilly.
I don't have the book in front of me so I
can't reference the pages where he discusses
this. After reading the Silkworth bio, it
prompted me to track down a copy of Easy Does
It.

Chris

**************************************

Original Message: 4983
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4983
From: "giftpurple" <Jifgift@aol.com>
(Jifgift at aol.com)

What is the history behind the book "Easy
Does It: Story of Mac" by Hugh Reilly?

- - - -

From the moderator:

"Easy Does It" by Hugh Reilly was a 1950s
book about an alcoholic man.

The basic bibliographic information is:

Easy does it, the story of Mac. For the
millions who as yet do not know.
by Hugh Reilly, pseud.
Type: Book; English
Publisher: New York, Kenedy [1950]
OCLC: 2662794
Related Subjects: Alcoholics Anonymous.

There is a review written by Robert E. L.
Faris. See the book review "Easy Does It:
The Story of Mac. by Hugh Reilly" in the
American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 56,
No. 3 (Nov., 1950), p. 300. (Published by
the University of Chicago Press)

0 -1 0 0
4987 Mark
AA member No. 4 AA member No. 4 4/24/2008 11:03:00 AM

Good Morning/Afternoon all!

Does anyone know who the person is that is
referenced in the BB as the fourth member?

Thanks

- - - -

From the moderator:

I am assuming that you are referring to the
"devil-may-care young fellow" who appears
on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).

The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-
year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young
man with problems [who must be distinguished
from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA
group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of
the truly great AA good old timers.]

Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking
for the rest of his life, nevertheless had
his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the
first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.
Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith
but they were later divorced.

0 -1 0 0
4988 johnhartie
Who edited three of the 1st edition stories? Who edited three of the 1st edition stories? 4/25/2008 2:38:00 PM

In the preface (4th edition, bottom of page xi)
it says that in the second edition,

- - - -

<<"Bill's Story," "Doctor Bob's Nightmare,"
and one other personal history from the first
edition were retained intact;

three were edited and one of these was retitled;

new versions of two stories were written, with
new titles>>

- - - -

My question is, who edited those three stories?

0 -1 0 0
4989 Mitchell K.
Re: AA in Latin America AA in Latin America 4/24/2008 5:32:00 PM

Several years back there was a research
symposium held at Brown University with some
AA members/historians and friends of AA
attending. Since my divorce and move I can't
find anything in my apartment and also due
to the fact that my memory is vanishing I
can't remember the Jesuit sociologist who was
in attendance who had immersed himself in the
AA culture in Mexico for a long-term research
study. Maybe Ernie Kurtz might have the
paperwork from that symposium and thus, the
contact info.

The nice thing about losing my memory is
that I will always be able to discover new
places and meet new people and make new
friends.


--- amielmelnick <amiel@whatfelt.org> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm doing research on the history of AA in
> Latin America (Mexico, Central and South
> America) - how the first groups were started,
> how they spread, any secessions or diffi-
> culties starting groups (I've been reading
> what has been posted here about the Mexico
> separation).
>
> I wonder if any of you have information about
> other parts of the history of AA in Latin
> America, or suggestions for good places to
> look? I realize this is a bit broader than
> the kinds of questions you usually get, but
> I'm just a beginner!
>
> Thanks, and all best,
>
> Amiel
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
4990 Trysh Travis
"the man in the bed" "the man in the bed" 4/27/2008 6:14:00 PM

I have become interested in the various
representations of "the man in the bed," and
am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making
up. I have collected the photos from the
original Jack Alexander article in the
Saturday Evening Post, as well as the
painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html

and the stained glass window at the Akron
Archives

http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html

I am curious to know whether people on this
list know of other visual representations of
the man in the bed that I might add to my
archive. They don't have to be famous like
these are!

Thanks, Trysh Travis

0 -1 0 0
4991 George Ewing
As Bill Sees It: changed quotations As Bill Sees It: changed quotations 4/28/2008 8:56:00 PM

I've perused As Bill Sees Its for years but
only recently noticed that many of the quotes
from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and
Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes,
but paraphrases.

This disturbs me for a number of reasons,
and since I noticed it I've left ASBI on
the shelf.

Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase
the source material, b) whether the "letters"
and Grapevine article snippets are also
paraphrased?

Thanks in advance.

George

0 -1 0 0
4992 Chris Budnick
RE: AA member No. 4 AA member No. 4 4/28/2008 11:28:00 PM

An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred
a few years after their divorce when their
daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking
the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on
June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to
the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty
had a son who committed suicide.

Chris

- - - -

Original message:

Good Morning/Afternoon all!

Does anyone know who the person is that is
referenced in the BB as the fourth member?

Thanks

- - - -

From the moderator:

I am assuming that you are referring to the
"devil-may-care young fellow" who appears
on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).

The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-
year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young
man with problems [who must be distinguished
from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA
group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of
the truly great AA good old timers.]

Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking
for the rest of his life, nevertheless had
his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the
first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.
Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith
but they were later divorced.

0 -1 0 0
4993 Tom Hickcox
Re: "the man in the bed" "the man in the bed" 4/28/2008 11:03:00 PM

I would be interested to know when and how
Bill Dotson's name became associated with
the painting?

It was not intended to represent him when it
was painted in 1955 by Robert M, a volunteer
illustrator for the Grapevine and appeared in
the December issue of that year titled "Came
to Believe." The setting is obviously not
in a hospital. The man on the bed is wearing
trousers and an undershirt. There is a bottle
of booze on the chest of drawers. The head
and foot of the bed are brass, not a hospital
bed. If the book one of the men has is
supposed to be a Big Book, it wasn't published
until almost four years later. One wonders
what book Bill and Dr. Bob would have used.

It is my understanding that the painting was
presented to Bill W by the artist in May of
1956, the following year. It was very popular
and the Grapevine provided reproductions of it.

When the book Came to Believe was published
in 1973, the name of the painting was changed
to The Man on the Bed to avoid confusion.

It appears at some point people started
believing the painting represented Bill Dotson
in Akron City Hospital in 1935. I wonder if
there is any hard evidence when that happened?

Tommy H

- - - -

Original message: Trysh Travis wrote

>I have become interested in the various
>representations of "the man in the bed," and
>am eager to add to the "gallery" I am making
>up. I have collected the photos from the
>original Jack Alexander article in the
>Saturday Evening Post, as well as the
>painting [?] on Barefoot Bill's website
>
>http://www.barefootsworld.net/aabilld-aa3.html
>
>and the stained glass window at the Akron
>Archives
>
>http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/man_on_the_bed.html
>
>I am curious to know whether people on this
>list know of other visual representations of
>the man in the bed that I might add to my
>archive. They don't have to be famous like
>these are!

0 -1 0 0
4994 Arthur Sheehan
Re: "the man in the bed" "the man in the bed" 4/28/2008 10:11:00 PM

I don't see anything to add to your answer
Tommy. It's fairly common to hear members say
that the man on the bed represents Bill,
Dr Bob and Bill D.

What I do is to point out that: (1) the man on
the bed is wearing trousers, (2) there is a
carpet under the bed, (3) there is a bottle of
booze on the dresser and (4) the headboard
and footboard of the bed are brass. These
would not be found in a room in Akron City
Hospital in June 1935. Also, the man in the
foreground is holding a book - if the artist
intended it to be the Big Book, then that
wasn't written until 4 years later in 1939.

And then people still go on saying it's Bill,
Dr Bob and Bill D.

Cheers
Arthur

0 -1 0 0
4995 Jocelyn
Historical list of all ICYPAA conferences Historical list of all ICYPAA conferences 5/2/2008 2:22:00 PM

~~~~Hey there ... Just joined the group.
Found you in my search for a simple list of
all the ICYPAAs, their years, cities and
themes. I'm the chair of the Chicago ICYPAA
bid committee for this year, and would like
to peruse this info. Does anyone have any
idea where I can locate such a list??

Look forward to seeing you in Oklahoma!

Jocelyn Geboy
Chair, Chicago ICYPAA Bid Committee

- - - -

From the moderator: for a general historical
account (although this doesn't give you your
detailed list) you might look at

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaspecialgroups.html

if you haven't already done so.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "dijmo" <dijmo@...> wrote:
>
> The 50th ICYPAA is being held July 3-6, 2008
> in Oklahoma City: http://www.50thicypaa.org
>
> We have been working with the program commit-
> tee to get a slot on the program for a panel
> meeting on Saturday afternoon. The likely
> title for this panel is "Historical Perspective
> on the ICYPAA conference" (from people that
> hosted ICYPAA over the decades).
>
> We would like to have three prearranged
> panelists, one that was involved in hosting
> an ICYPAA during the 60's, one that was
> involved in hosting an ICYPAA during the
> 70's and one from the 80's.
>
> After each of these folks have shared a little
> bit about what it was like and what it meant
> for their sobriety, we will open it up for
> sharing from the floor.
>
> For those of you who may know of Bill D., he
> has agreed to be the Saturday night speaker.
> Bill was involved in organizing the first
> ICYPAA and the main speaker at the second!
> If that's not enough, he first came to AA at
> age 19, in New York and attended meetings with
> Bill W. and many other early AAs.
>
> Lizzie Schrock
> Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
> lizzieschrock@...
> 530/906/9854
>
> or
>
> Melanie Elliott
> Member 34th ICYPAA Host Committee
> melhermann@...
> 323/356/0432
>

0 -1 0 0
4996 Cindy Miller
Re: AA member No. 4 and Dr. Bob''s daughter Sue AA member No. 4 and Dr. Bob''s daughter Sue 4/30/2008 6:39:00 PM

Wonderful, positive note:

Sue married her old sweetheart, Ray Windows
in 1975 -- 38 years after she had originally
met him!

Source: "Children of the Healer" (story of Sue
and Smitty) - highly recommended.

-cm
`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>


On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:28 PM, Chris Budnick wrote:

> An added tragedy for Sue and Ernie occurred
> a few years after their divorce when their
> daughter Bonna committed suicide after taking
> the life of her 6-year-old daughter Sandy on
> June 11, 1969. Ernie died 2 years later to
> the day. Also very tragic, Smitty and Betty
> had a son who committed suicide.
>
> Chris
>
> - - - -
>
> Original message:
>
> Good Morning/Afternoon all!
>
> Does anyone know who the person is that is
> referenced in the BB as the fourth member?
>
> Thanks
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator:
>
> I am assuming that you are referring to the
> "devil-may-care young fellow" who appears
> on page 158 in the Big Book (3rd/4th edit.).
>
> The "devil-may-care young fellow" was 30-
> year-old Ernie Galbraith of Akron, a young
> man with problems [who must be distinguished
> from the other Ernie G. in the early Ohio AA
> group, who was Ernie Gerig of Toledo, one of
> the truly great AA good old timers.]
>
> Ernie Galbraith, who had trouble with drinking
> for the rest of his life, nevertheless had
> his story, "The Seven Month Slip," in the
> first edition of the Big Book. In 1941 Dr.
> Bob's daughter Sue married Ernie Galbraith
> but they were later divorced.
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
4997 Chris Budnick
Re: Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac Hugh Reilly, Easy Does It: The Story of Mac 4/30/2008 1:28:00 AM

Below is the text from the Silkworth biography
by Dale Mitchell (p. 95 - 101) regarding
arguments for Silkworth writing Easy Does It.
As mentioned in the email from Jim, it does
indicate speculation about Bill Wilson having
authored the book. I had forgotten that point
from the Silkworth bio. It's a bit of a long
email.

- - - -

On May 26, 1950, a fictional account of an
alcoholic called Easy Does It: The Story of Mac
was published by P.]. Kenedy and Sons out of
New York City during Silkworth's last full
year at Knickerbocker Hospital. The author
used the pseudonym Hugh Reilly and, according
to the dustcover, "has resorted to a narrative
which but barely disguises his true experience."
Was this author, indeed, William Silkworth?
A number of facts lead to this very conclusion.

Easy Does It describes a treatment facility
and process that mirrors that of Knickerbocker
Hospital during the Silkworth management. It
outlines the program of Alcoholics Anonymous
to a degree of understanding that surpasses
that of most of the active members of the
fellowship. The Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous and some of the then-unwritten
Traditions are explained to a level equal to
that of the Big Book. Easy Does It presents
facts, fictional characters that strongly
resemble important people within early M, and
medical descriptions unique to the Silkworth
treatment program. More important, the
alcoholic mind is dissected through the
conversations and thoughts of the main char-
acter, Mac.

Prior to Easy Does It, early AA was presented
in only a few publications, including the Big
Book of Alcoholics Anonymous and a few Bill
Wilson AA Grapevine articles. Some of the
information contained in Easy Does It cannot
be traced to any of these sources. The author
of this book must have lived within the inner
circles of the program and maintained firsthand
knowledge of specific Silkworth treatment
attitudes. Only one man could have known the
details outlined in Easy Does It - William
Silkworth himself.

The characters in the book spoke about the
exact same medical descriptions, analogies, and
quotations Silkworth used over the years in his
writings and speeches.

Silkworth's nurse, Teddy, is one of the fictional
characters in the book. The character matches
Teddy in vivid physical detail and personality.
The personality description even corresponds to
how Teddy described herself in the 1952 article
"I'm a Nurse in an Alcoholic Ward." Silkworth
himself could not have been better described in
physical detail and personality had his own wife
written the book. His glowing white hair, his
deep blue eyes, even the way he dressed are the
attributes of one of the characters.

The author held an uncanny knowledge of
alcoholism, the Silkworth writings, the allergy
theory, and the program specifics of Alcoholics
Anonymous. The book uses many phrases that
were coined by Silkworth and rarely used by
others. The book, which was well received,
focuses more on the physical and medical
presentation of alcoholism than the spiritual
requirements of recovery, yet the spiritual
components of recovery are also plainly
detailed. Although Silkworth's conversion
beliefs are left for secondary conversations
between the two main characters, conversion
indeed occurs in every case of recovery
presented. In accordance with the Silkworth
legacy, it is obvious the book lays the ground
for a firm base of medical understanding. A
presentation of Higher Power and references to
God are well placed within the book after the
medical descriptions. Had the book been written
with a purely AA focus, this might not have
occurred.

The only reasonable argument against Silkworth
authoring the book is that he was an extremely
private and humble man. It is said that
Silkworth would never write a book about
himself that contained such glowing praise for
his work. Silkworth always maintained his
distance from fame despite the important role he
played in the birth of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Why would he suddenly step out of character
and write a book acknowledging the intelligence
and knowledge of alcoholic treatment by a doctor
who was obviously himself?

We do know that he did nonetheless step out of
character and pen a glowing recommendation of
himself. The foreword to Easy Does It was
written and signed by 'William Duncan
Silkworth, Physician-in-Charge of the AA Wing,
Knickerbocker Hospital, New York." In this
short introduction, Silkworth writes, "The author
has long been a close student of the alcoholic
problem. He certainly does not write as an
amateur."

The story describes one of the main characters,
Dr. Goodrich, as "a man of exceptional mental
and spiritual nature." If it can only be accepted
that the Dr. Goodrich character is indeed Dr.
Silkworth, then it must be accepted that Silk-
worth was still writing a foreword to a book
that praised his own work.

In his closing statement of the foreword
Silkworth states, "It deals with a complex
subject, discussed from many angles, often
challenging, always vigorous and original." At
the time, Silkworth was widely respected as an
expert on alcoholism and for his Towns and
Knickerbocker treatment models for programs
and facilities all over the world. This
foreword was no small recommendation.
Silkworth endorsed only three books in his
writing over his many years: Alcoholics Anon-
ymous, The Varieties of Religious Experience,
and Easy Does It. This places Easy Does It
quite high on the suggested reading list from
a man generally married to science and Alco-
holics Anonymous.

The only other reasonable argument against
Silkworth as the author is that Bill Wilson was
the author. Next to Silkworth, no one else had
the experience at Towns and Knickerbocker
Hospitals aside from Bill Wilson. No one could
have more precisely described Alcoholics
Anonymous. No one could have understood the
medical facts presented in the book regarding
the allergy theory, and certainly, no one knew
the true story of Bill's spiritual awakening.

How then do we challenge this theory? First,
Bill was known to be gregarious and very
public. He wrote many articles and was
involved in the writing of two books about his
life and the history of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Not once did he shy from public praise, quite
the contrary. Why would Bill Wilson suddenly
decide to write a book on Alcoholics Anony-
mous and the life of Dr. Silkworth in an
anonymous fashion?

Second, Wilson regretted not properly thanking
Silkworth more directly, and more frequently,
long after Silkworth had died. He would not
have made these comments had he actually
written a book that did indeed provide such
praise for Silkworth.

When first informed about the possibility that
Silkworth authored Easy Does It by a resource-
ful woman named Susan in New Jersey, I set
out to prove her wrong. My very first phone
call made me begin to question my preconcep-
tions.

When I called Adelaide Silkworth, the wife of
Silkworth's nephew William Silkworth, the first
time, we spoke briefly about the project and my
desire to find out all I could about the doctor.
Her first response was "Are you going to tell
them about Easy Does It?"

The family has long believed Silkworth to be the
author of Easy Does It - a rumor that does not
start haphazardly in a family history. Adelaide
matter-of-factly talked about how she and her
husband have always known and talked openly
about Dr. Silkworth being the true author, as
though she thought everyone already knew it to
be true. If Dr. Silkworth had lived three or four
generations earlier, the current family beliefs
might be difficult to accept as truth. The fact
that he lived at the same time and spent much
time with his namesake only strengthens the
family history.

A secondary source of proof is found in the
book review section of the New York Times in
1950. The prerelease book review for Easy
Does It names Dr. Silkworth as the author.
Minot C. Morgan wrote of this review in the
December 8, 1950, Princeton Alumni Weekly,
where he discussed Easy Does It and the author.

Members of this class may not be aware that
one of our classmates is an author named Hugh
Reilly, but the following book review in the
New York Times reveals his identity to be none
other than Dr. Bill Silkworth, who is still
devoting his energies and his professional skill
in a fine and much-needed humanitarian service:

"A fictionalized biography of an 'arrested alco-
holic' by an author who writes under the
pseudonym of Hugh Reilly will be published
on May 26 by P.J Kenedy. 'Easy Does It: The
Story of Mac' presents the life of a 'stew-bum,'

and the how and why of drinking and how the
alcoholic returned to normal life. Dr. William
Duncan Silkworth, Physician-in-charge of the
Alcoholics Anonymous Wing in Knickerbocker
Hospital, says in his foreword: The author
very properly integrates the moral therapy and
psychology of Alcoholics Anonymous as an
essential element in restoring the integrity of
the alcoholic."

Also the following excerpt from an obituary
of Dr. Silkworth was found as a third source:

A few months before his death his book, "Easy
Does It: The Story of Mac," was published by
P.J. Kenedy, the fictionalized biography of an
arrested alcoholic, telling the how and why of
drinking and explaining the means of recovery,
emphasizing the moral therapy and psychology
of Alcoholics Anonymous as an essential
element in restoring the integrity of the alco-
holic. In the publication of the book Billy
concealed his identity under the pseudonym of
Hugh Reilly, only the foreword being credited
to Dr.William Duncan Silkworth.

The New York Times had a resource at its finger-
tips since lost in the annals of AA history
- an original book review. Silkworth's New York
Times obituary was matter-of-fact about the
authorship of Easy Does It. Certainly, had
there been a man named Hugh Reilly, of whom
we have been unable to, find any record exists,
he would have come forward for his rightful
ownership of the book. In fact, the book itself
admits the name is a pseudonym.

The dedication page of Easy Does It can be
viewed as a path to the author's identity.
Certainly thousands may have the same initials
as those listed on the following dedication
page. Yet if we begin with those who had a
positive influence on Dr. Silkworth, we can
quickly find names that correspond with the
initials.

TO T. F. M.

WITH GRATITUDE FOR ALL THE THINGS

THAT WENT INTO HIS BEING

"THE FIRST TO UNDERSTAND"

AND TO

C.E.T

WHICH MIGHT ALSO STAND FOR
CHRIST EXEMPLIFIED FOR OUR
TIMES

Only one man in Silkworth's life distinguished
as "the first to understand" has the initials
T. F. M. And many referred to Thomas Francis
Marshall as the first to understand. He was
among the first to publicly preach a required
"conversion experience" for alcoholic recovery.
Long before William James and Joel Steele,
Marshall beckoned spiritual conversion as a
solution to alcoholism. One of the most ardent
supporters of conversion was William
Silkworth. Colonel Edward Towns (C.E.T.)
was known as a very compassionate and
Christian man. Towns and Silkworth became
very good friends through the work at Towns
Hospital. Many who knew Towns referred to
his strong Christian values, and one in parti-
cular, the Reverend Harry Emerson Fosdick,
called him "an example of Christianity."

The introduction to Easy Does It was written
with authority. Not with the authority of one
man's understanding of one alcoholic, but with
one man's experience of many alcoholics.
Again, the author praises several founding
members and supporters of Alcoholics
Anonymous, including "a great man named

Bill." The introduction reveals the identity of
'The Padre," one of the main characters of the
book, as a composite portrait "not unlike the
four immortal chaplains commemorated on a
three cent stamp issued by the United States
Government." The men, Reverend Samuel
Shoemaker, Father Ed Dowling, Reverend
Harry Emerson Fosdick, and Reverend Frank
Buchman, were all founding spiritual supporters
of Alcoholics Anonymous and well known to
Silkworth.

In his "introduction," the author attempts mainly
to offer Alcoholics Anonymous as "the only
program that takes cognizance of this whole
man in the treatment of the alcoholic and
motivates him in a way of life by which he
remains sober." Sound familiar? He also,
however, sheds light on his true identity. First,
the generic language itself is obviously a
barometer of Silkworth's prior writings. Almost
word for word, in the introduction and in the
story told in the book, we find Silkworth's
theoretical influence. Either the author knew the
content and sum of all Silkworth's writings and
speeches, or the author was Silkworth. Phrases
like "case history" were used to describe the
book's story. These are not words of a non-
medical man.

The closing paragraph may offer the most
poignant sentence in the entire book:

I want here to express my fervent appreciation
of the inestimable assistance which I received
consciously from the spoken and written
statements of the eminent doctor whose name
and words give luster to this book in the
Foreword. . . .Upon review of these facts, there
is truly only one option to consider: Dr.
Silkworth was the author of Easy Does It.
And through this fictional story, he offers the
world a glimpse of his private thoughts as
one of the founding fathers of AA.

0 -1 0 0
4998 tsirish1
Live Easy But Think First Live Easy But Think First 5/3/2008 4:53:00 PM

Does anyone KNOW the origin of this practice?
Year? Group? Where I can find where the origin
is WRITTEN DOWN? Thanks.

0 -1 0 0
4999 Michael F. Margetis
Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? 5/4/2008 5:07:00 PM

Hi,

I know a lot about Rollie's baseball career
and his anonymity break, and that he wound up
running a real estate office in Langley Park
Maryland (where I got sober)up until his death
and is buried nearby, but I don't know much
about his sobriety.

A couple of people I've talked to seem to
think he drank again, but I've never seen or
heard that from any authoritative source.
What can anyone tell me about that?

Thanks,
Mike M.

0 -1 0 0
5000 Andy
ICYPAA History ICYPAA History 5/5/2008 12:18:00 PM

Young People's Groups in Alcoholics Anonymous
began appearing around 1945 in Los Angeles,
Cleveland, and Philadelphia, and now they can
be found all across North America. In 1958, a
meeting of young AA's from across the U.S. and
Canada started what is now the International
Conference of Young People in Alcoholics Anon-
ymous (ICYPAA), and it has met on an annual
basis ever since. At the 1960 AA Convention,
Bill W. noted that the age of new members was
much lower than when he and Dr. Bob founded
AA 25 years earlier. In a letter to ICYPAA
dated June 15, 1969, Bill wrote "... in recent
years I have found nothing for greater inspira-
tion than the knowledge that A.A. of tomorrow
will be safe, and certainly magnificent, in
the keeping of you who are the younger genera-
tion of A.A. today."

ICYPAA was founded for the purpose of pro-
viding a setting for an annual celebration
of sobriety among young people in AA. Since
its inception, a growing group of people, who
at first would not consider themselves as
"young people," has become regular attendees.
The number of young people suffering from
alcoholism who turn to AA for help is growing,
and ICYPAA helps to carry AA's message of
recovery to alcoholics of all ages. This
meeting provides an opportunity for young AA's
from all over the world to come together and
share their experience, strength, and hope as
members of Alcoholics Anonymous. AA members
who attend an ICYPAA return home better pre-
pared to receive young people who come to AA
looking for a better way of life.

ICYPAA provides visible evidence that large
numbers of young people are achieving a
lasting and comfortable sobriety in Alco-
holics Anonymous. The three legacies of
AA -- Recovery, Unity, and Service -- are
the backbone of ICYPAA, just as they are
throughout AA. ICYPAA has a long history as
an established AA conference. It regularly
contributes to the AA General Service Office,
as well as to the Area Service Structure in
the local areas where it is held. ICYPAA and
its attendees are also committed to reaching
out to the newcomer, and to involvement in
every other facet of AA service.  ICYPAA
participants can often be found serving at
the national, state, area, and group levels.
Newcomers are shown, by people their own age,
that using AA principles in their daily lives
and getting involved in AA service can have a
significant impact on a lasting and comfort-
able sobriety.

The 2008 ICYPAA will be held July 3-6 in
Oklahoma City, OK

Los Angeles, CA 2007 "Solid as Gibralter"

New Orleans, LA 2006 "Raise the Bottom"
postponed due to Katrina 2005

Orlando, Fl 2004 "we Stopped in Time"

Portland, OR 2003 "No-Middle-Of-The-Road
Solution"

Louisville, KY 2002 "A Design for Living"

Detroit, MI 2001 "Rebellion may be Fatal..."

Albuquerque, NM 2000 "Miracles Among Us"

Houston, TX 1999 "An Experience You Must
not Miss"

Washington, DC 1998 "The keys of the Kingdom"

Estes Park, CO 1997 "The High Road to a New
Freedom"

Anaheim, CA 1996 "We Absolutely Insist On
Enjoying Life"

Honolulu, HI 1995 "Willing to go to any
lengths"

Atlanta, GA 1994 "Together we fly"

New York, NY 1993 "Beyond your wildest
dreams"

Cleveland, OH 1992 "Back to Basics"

San Francisco, CA 1991 "There is a Solution"

Montreal, PQ 1990 "Heart to Heart around
the World"

Salt Lake City, UT 1989 "Carry the Message"

Nashville, TN 1988 "I am Responsible"

Boston, MA 1987 "A Magnificent Reality'"

Miami, FL 1986 "Sunlight of the Spirit"

Denver, CO 1985 "A Magnificant Reality"

Chicago, IL 1984

Cincinnati, OH 1983

New York, NY 1982

Minneapolis, MN 1981

Tucson, AZ 1980 "Sweet Surrender"

Vancouver, BC 1979 "Celebrate Sobriety"

Atlanta, GA 1978

Houston, TX 1977

Philadelpia, PA 1976 "The Spirit of 76"

Memphis, TN 1975

Indianapolis, IN 1974 "We've only just begun"

San Francisco, CA 1973

Cleveland, OH 1972

Reno, NV 1971

Fort Worth, TX 1970

Philadelphia, PA 1969

Toronto, Ont. 1968

Denver, CO 1967

St. Louis, MO 1966

Long Beach, CA 1965

Detroit, MI 1964

Columbia, SC. 1963

Hamilton, Ont. 1962

Milwaukee, WI 1961

Philadelphia, PA 1960

Chicago, IL 1959

Niagra Falls, 1958

0 -1 0 0
5001 Steve Stevenson
Re: Live Easy But Think First Live Easy But Think First 5/4/2008 4:27:00 PM

If you arrange the slogans in a particular
order and use the first word of each they will
spell out:

LIVE and let live,

EASY does it,

BUT for the grace of God,

THINK think think,

FIRST things first.

- - - -

Also from: MarionORedstone@aol.com
(MarionORedstone at aol.com)

0 -1 0 0
5002 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? Did Rollie Hemsley drink again? 5/5/2008 10:40:00 AM

According to Bob Feller (who attended
Hemsley's funeral) and Hemsley's relatives
including Daughter, Granddaughter, and many
other relatives, Rollie never drank again.

In his recorded talk in 1968 he was still
using the sobriety date of April l6, 1939.

Some have written about Hemsley drinking again,
including Susan Cheever in her book on Bill W.
She gives the source of her information as
PASS IT ON, which does not in fact contain
any information to support the claim.

0 -1 0 0
5003 jlobdell54
Editors of the Second Edition Editors of the Second Edition 5/7/2008 10:50:00 AM

The chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a
nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century
painter of Western scenes.

Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose
husband was, I think, an original Batman (or
was it Superman?) comic artist,

Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later
have been active in founding NA),

Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know),

and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah.

Which one of them edited the three first-
edition stories I can't say, though it might
be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story)
may have edited his own, as he died after the
Second Edition was published.

Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't.

0 -1 0 0
5004 Mike
A Rollie Hemsley Story A Rollie Hemsley Story 5/6/2008 8:15:00 AM

This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today.
The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's
anonymity break affected his professional
career, even many years later.

Mike

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbus_bb_1950.\
ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101


0 -1 0 0
5005 Tom Hickcox
Re: As Bill Sees It: changed quotations As Bill Sees It: changed quotations 5/7/2008 6:52:00 PM

At 19:56 4/28/2008, George Ewing wrote:

>I've perused As Bill Sees It for years but
>only recently noticed that many of the quotes
>from both the Big Book and Twelve Steps and
>Twelve Traditions are actually NOT quotes,
>but paraphrases.
>
>This disturbs me for a number of reasons,
>and since I noticed it I've left ABSI on
>the shelf.

It isn't as if they were trying to sneak
something by us as Bill W stated in the
Foreword to "As Bill Sees It" on p. iv,
"Because the quotations used were lifted out
of their original context, it has been
necessary in the interest of clarity to edit,
and sometimes to rewrite, a number of them."

>Does anyone know a) who decided to paraphrase
>the source material, b) whether the "letters"
>and Grapevine article snippets are also
>paraphrased?

Since the mention of editing was done by Bill,
I assume he either did it or leant his approval
to what was done.
____________________

That said, I have asked before on this forum
why the word transcendence was substituted for
victory in the Third Step Prayer on p. 210 and
have yet to receive an answer. Its use does
not seem to meet the criteria Bill listed.

Big Book Third Step Prayer p. 63:
"Take away my difficulties, that
victory over them may bear witness to
those I would help of Thy Power, Thy
Love, and Thy Way of Life."

As Bill Sees It Third Step Prayer p. 210:
"Take away my difficulties, that
my transcendence over them may bear witness to
those I would help of Thy Power, Thy
Love, and Thy Way of Life."
____________________

I would note that many things change over the
years. The Serenity Prayer we use is different
from the way Niebuhr wrote it, according to
his daughter. Scholars tell us the Christian
Bible has been changed thru the ages, but since
we have no original drafts, we have to depend
on textual analysis for attempts at what was
originally written.

The Foreword to the Fourth Edition of the Big
Book was changed almost as soon as it was
published, and I know of at least one local
Big Book Study that deems the First Printing
to be inappropriate for study. Go figure.
____________________

Off the top of my head, I am aware of only
about a half dozen places in "As Bill Sees It"
where editing has taken place, usually taking
sentences out to make the selection shorter.
There is no indication in the A.A.W.L./A.B.S.I.
where this has been done, but that is certainly
not unusual.

I use the book in my daily routine and usually
think of the changes only when I get to p. 210.
Your experience obviously has been different.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From Laurie A. <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Re George Ewing's query about who was to blame
for paraphrasing AA literature in "As Bill Sees
It". There's no mystery - Bill himself was
responsible! See his foreword: "Because the
quotations used were lifted out of their
original context, it has been necessary in the
interest of clarity to edit, and sometimes to
rewrite, a number of them..."

0 -1 0 0
5006 Chris Budnick
RE: Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. 5/8/2008 1:20:00 AM

A "Betty Thom" was involved with the HFD
(Habit Forming Drugs) groups in California and
had correspondence with Bill W. around 1954.
I've never come across any indication that
she was involved with the founding of
Narcotics Anonymous in 1953. One reference
I saw indicated that she did a lot of writing
and that HFD meetings were often held in
conjunction with AA meetings.

Here is the quote from a talk given by a
gentleman named Scott A. in 1991:

"Unrelated to that, in 1950, we also know that
there were Habit Forming Drug groups taking
place in Los Angeles, California, usually in
conjunction with AA meetings. They were also
held in homes. The principal person behind
them was a lady named Betty Thom. She did a
lot of writing. A member of our region used
to live up in Vista before he died. Last year
a friend of mine and I were allowed to go
through some of his books and papers, and he
had inches of writing from this HFD group.
They had a 12 Step guide. They had a bunch of
various articles that were type-written out on
pages like maybe a magazine article before it
got published or something. They were very
committed that the 12 Steps could work for
recovery from addiction."


Does anyone have additional information on her
or the accuracy of the above statement?

Chris

- - - -

From: jlobdell54
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008
Subject: Editors of the Second Edition

The chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B., an artist and writer and a
nephew (I believe) of a great 19th-century
painter of Western scenes.

Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose
husband was, I think, an original Batman (or
was it Superman?) comic artist,

Betty T. (I think T., and if so she may later
have been active in founding NA),

Tom (whether P. - of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know),

and Ralph B., Bill's neighbor up by Katonah.

Which one of them edited the three first-
edition stories I can't say, though it might
be found out. Arch T. (changed-title story)
may have edited his own, as he died after the
Second Edition was published.

Clarence S.? Clearly Fitz M. didn't.

0 -1 0 0
5007 Rotax Steve
Transcription of Henrietta Seiberling''s remarks? Transcription of Henrietta Seiberling''s remarks? 5/9/2008 12:43:00 PM

I just recently heard from a speaker
(Keith L.) that in the mid 1970's, Henrietta
Seiberling was asked to be a speaker and she
was ill and could not do it. Her son spent
some time with her asking a lot of questions
which he recorded to take to the event. His
recording was said to have been transcribed.
Do any of you know of this and more
importantly do any of you have a copy of
the transcription? Was the recording ever
kept and copied, or did this even happen?

LOL, on a more humorous note, I just spell-
checked the above and the only correction
suggestion for Seiberling was "Sobering."

Thanks
~ Rotax Steve

0 -1 0 0
5008 Mark
Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story A Rollie Hemsley Story 5/8/2008 5:29:00 PM

Hey Mike,

Thanks for the article, but I have a bit of a
nit to pick. The words in the article were...
"Hemsley was a recovering alcoholic, and
management feared he started drinking again
and that fueled some of his unorthodox
decisions," and that does not talk about any
anonymity break, or any possible membership
in any specific recovery organization which
might be concerned about anonymity breaks.

Thanks again for pointing us to this article.

Mark E.
Lebanon, Ohio

0 -1 0 0
5009 Michael F. Margetis
Re: A Rollie Hemsley Story A Rollie Hemsley Story 5/8/2008 7:50:00 AM

It still only says management "feared" he
may have been drinking again ... still no
definitive answer. My hope is that he didn't
drink again. I just want to know (as much as
one can at this point) before I correct
someone who says he drank after his original
sobriety date.

I've had two people, who normally are sure of
their facts, say that he drank again. I told
them I thought he did NOT drink again, as far
as I knew, and they seemed surprised.

Neither could say where they read that and as
far as I can see from what I've read, (Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers, Pass it On, Not God)
I can't find anything that says he did.

Thanks,
-Mike M.


In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <tuswecaoyate@...> wrote:
>
> This appeared in the Columbus Dispatch today.
> The last paragraph mentions that Rollie's
> anonymity break affected his professional
> career, even many years later.
>
> Mike
>
>
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/05/06/columbu
s_bb_1950.ART_ART_05-06-08_C1_LVA4ED9.html?sid=101
>

0 -1 0 0
5010 Shakey1aa@aol.com
What determines the date AA is founded in a city? What determines the date AA is founded in a city? 5/7/2008 6:59:00 PM

As an alcoholic my sobriety date is the date I
started my journey towards continuous sobriety.
If I drink, my date is recalculated from the
date of the last drink. Many cities, however,
consider the date that AA came to the city
as the date of their 1st meeting.

In Philadelphia, it would be Feb. 28,1940.
AA started that day and has continued
uninterrupted to date.

Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was
December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A.
Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us
now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles.
He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth
Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone
number and address where she lived and had
meetings. He went over and asked "Where's
the meeting?" "There are no meetings any
more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going
to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the
members of A. A," he asked. "They are all
drunk," she said bitterly.

Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard.
She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be
the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on
Main street. Through the good offices of Dr.
Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the
mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first
public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at
8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA
have continued uninterrupted since that date.

Is the date of a city'd continuous meetings
considered the date A. A. was founded there,
or is it the date of the 1st meeting which
never continued or "slipped"?

Many cities use the 1st meeting date as
bragging rights but sobriety is considered
as continuous.

I hope that some of you can help clarify this
matter.

See you in Niagara Falls NY in Sept.
Natl .Archives workshop
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

0 -1 0 0
5011 jlobdell54
Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling 5/13/2008 9:07:00 PM

A transcription of her talk is at

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/billwilsonmeetingsieberling.htm

- - - -

A reference to this source was also
sent in by <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

- - - -

From: "Maria Hoffman" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

A transcript is also posted on Barefoots World:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaorighenriettas.html

- - - -

From: "rajiv.behappy" <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>
(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)

A transcript is given in the Fall 1985, Employee
Assistance Quarterly ISSN: 0749-0003

A part of the tape recording of the conversation
was played by her son John F. S. at the 1971
Founders Day meeting in Akron.

Much love from India,

Rajiv Bhole

- - - -

From: Jocelyn <prpllady51@yahoo.com>
(prpllady51 at yahoo.com)

I recently heard this recording again at the
Seiberling Estate (Stan Hywet Hall) at the
Gate House. They have copies available for
purchase at the gift shop. I don't know if a
transcription is available. You may want to
check with the curators/management.

Here is a link to the gift shop, and as you
can see you can order the CD for a cost of
$10.00. I highly recommend a personal trip.
Beside the AA history there,the estate is
alive with all sort of activities as well as
an amazing botanical garden.

http://www.stanhywet.org/product/item-13875999-7198-4fe2-85fc-93cb4507e4d6.aspx

Regards,

Jocelyn

- - - -

This was also sent in by:
"Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
Jerry Riley <jerrytwotord@hotmail.com>

0 -1 0 0
5012 Sober186@aol.com
Re: Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. Editors of Second Edition: Betty T. 5/13/2008 8:41:00 PM

It might have been Superman, which was created
by Jerome Siegel (who wrote the story lines)
and Joe Shuster (who was the original artist).
Both were from the Cleveland area. Siegel
created the character as we know it in 1934.
The comic was first published in Action Comics
in the late 1930s.

Jim in Columbus

- - - -

In a message dated 5/12/2008
cbudnick@nc.rr.com writes:

Subject: Editors of the Second Edition

...Other editors were Maryland N. K., whose
husband was, I think, an original Batman (or
was it Superman?) comic artist,...

0 -1 0 0
5013 Bill Lash
Upcoming Events (June 2008) Upcoming Events (June 2008) 5/14/2008 10:30:00 AM

Annual Bill Wilson Day
Celebrating the 73rd Anniv. of the founding of AA
June 1, 2008
at the Wilson House (where Bill Wilson was born)
378 Village Street
East Dorset, VT 05253
For more info call 802/362/5524
**********
The AA Traditions & History Group along with
the Alcoholics in Action Group invite you to
an afternoon with Renowned AA Historian &
Archivist Jay S. from Redondo Beach CA
Come & hear Jay's inspiring & informative
talks on the Akron miracle, The Oxford Group
& our early AA roots.
Free Door Prize!
Saturday, June 7, 2008, 2:00 - 5:00PM
St. Joseph's School Cafeteria
44th Street & 30th Avenue (enter at 44th Street)
Astoria (Queens), NY 11103
For more info call 718/701/5801
**********
Come Celebrate Founders' Day
73rd Anniversary of AA
June 6 - 8, 2008
in Akron OH, Birthplace of AA
For more info go to http://www.akronaa.org/
& click on "Founders' Day"
**********
56th Annual Stepping Stones Picnic
June 7, 2008 - 12noon to 5:00PM (rain or shine)
At the historic home of Bill & Lois Wilson
62 Oak Road
Katonah (Bedford Hills), NY 10536
914/232/4822
Open Speaker Meeting starts at 2:00PM with
Greg M. from New York - General Manager
of GSO (AA)
Ric B. from Virginia (Al-Anon)
Mercedes V. from Mexico (Alateen)
For more info go to www.steppingstones.org
**********
The “Hightstown Early Birds” Group presents
An AA History Presentation with 250 Pictures of
Early AA with Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ
Saturday, June 14, 2008
9:00AM – 11:45AM
First Presbyterian Church
320 North Main Street
Hightstown, NJ 08520
Pictures of the Washingtonians, Frank Buchman,
Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves, Ebby T., Bill &
Lois W., Bill W.'s parents & grandparents,
Lois W.'s parents, Dr. Bob & family, all the
Ohio and Vermont places, Henrietta Seiberling,
Bill D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sister Ignatia,
all the New York and New Jersey places, Charlie
Towns & Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early
literature was published, the Rockefeller
dinner, gravesites, etc.
It's very exciting, combining the stories with
the images.
For more information please call Barefoot Bill
at 201/232/8749 (cell).
**********
Multi-District History & Archives Gathering
Registration opens at 8 a.m. on Saturday
June 21, 2008 at the St. Cecilia's Social Hall
750 State Drive
Lebanon PA 17042
Suggested topics for panels are:
**The Messengers to Ebby (Rowland H., Shep C.,
Cebra G.)
**AA and Baseball
**AA and Films/Theatre
**Early Days in the Mid-Atlantic Region
**AA Pioneers
**A Panel on Coming into AA in the Eastern
Pennsylvania Area in October 1970
(three old friends who have known each
other in sobriety for more than 35 years).
The Gathering is FREE with morning refreshments
and lunch provided.
End time about 4:30-5:00 p.m.
Contact the Chairman at histandarch@comcast.net

0 -1 0 0
5014 Bill Lash
RE: Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling Henrietta Sieberling Talk as given by John Sieberling 5/14/2008 2:14:00 PM

This Henrietta transcript is already on AA
History Lovers from when Nancy was still
facilitating.

Message 138

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/138

0 -1 0 0
5015 Hal
26 Big Book Prayers 26 Big Book Prayers 5/13/2008 8:18:00 PM

I am on the hunt for a list of what I have
been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can
anyone help point me in the right direction?

THANKS!

0 -1 0 0
5016 Chris Budnick
Filmmakers seek memorabilia on Cornwall Press for A.A. film Filmmakers seek memorabilia on Cornwall Press for A.A. film 5/14/2008 12:49:00 AM

The first printing of the Big Book was printed
by Cornwall Press in 1939. Some NYC filmmakers
are seeking memorabilia about this press for
a film they are making on the history of A.A.
______________________________

I came across the following story:

"NYC filmmakers seek memorabilia on
Cornwall Press era for A.A. film"

By Michael Randall

Times Herald-Record

May 12, 2008

CORNWALL - Check your attic, your basement
and your storage space. You might be able to
help make a movie.

Some New York City-based documentary film-
makers are working on a movie that will tell
the story of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The story has a local angle: The first edition
of "Alcoholics Anonymous," the fellowship
group's basic textbook (also commonly known
as "The Big Book") was printed by the Cornwall
Press in 1939.

But the business is long gone, and director
Kevin Hanlon and co-producer Dahlia Kozlowsky
say they've run into dead ends trying to
locate films, photographs or any other kind
of visual memorabilia of the Cornwall Press,
particularly from the '30s or '40s that would
evoke the era when the book was published.

So they're appealing to the public for help.
They figure somebody who used to work at the
Cornwall Press, or perhaps their sons and
daughters, might have some old movies or
photos from that era stored away somewhere.

A.A. grew out of a meeting in Akron, Ohio,
between a New York stockbroker, Bill W., and
an Akron surgeon, Dr. Bob S.

The beginnings of A.A. were detailed in a
1989 TV movie, "My Name is Bill W.," starring
James Woods and James Garner, but this will
be the first feature-length documentary on
the subject, Hanlon said.

"I was shocked nobody ever made a documentary
(about this) before," he said.

Hanlon said he was inspired to do the film
because he's known a number of alcoholics who
got sober through A.A. and its 12-step program.

The filmmakers haven't shot any local footage
yet, but they say that could happen later.
They don't know when it will be released;
they're still sorting through what Kozlowsky
describes as enough material "to make a 10-week
series on PBS, but that's probably not" where
it will end up playing.

mrandall@th-record.com

Anyone with film, photographs or other
memorabilia of the Cornwall Press in the
1930s/1940s can call Kozlowsky at 212/229/1358
or e-mail her at

Dkozlowsky@gmail.com
(Dkozlowsky at gmail.com)

0 -1 0 0
5017 charles Knapp
The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles 5/14/2008 2:44:00 AM

Hello Group,

I don’t know if I can answer the question
how to determine when AA officially comes to
a city, but I might be able to shed some light
on early AA in Southern California. How and
when AA came to Los Angeles is not as heated
a topic today as it used to be. It is my
understanding this topic actually divided some
of the early members here. According to
Kaye Miller the first AA meeting was held in
her home December 19, 1939. She was a
nonalcoholic who offered her home for that
meeting.

In a letter to Bill W., dated February 8
1947, she wrote about her recollection of
early AA in LA. In this letter she states
that her meeting moved to Glendale after a
couple weeks and rotated back and forth.
She also stated Mort J., attended her meeting
and didn’t come to LA until April 1940. In a
February 1952 Grapevine article it also cast
a shadow on the starting date for Mort’s
Cecil Hotel meeting and goes along the same
lines of Kaye’s recollections. ( Don't have a
copy of that article handy)

I do not have the whole story, but what I
have pieced together so far as to who founded
AA in Los Angeles came to a head in March 1951.
Bill came out to the West Coast to help members
elect a delegate to the first General Service
Conference. During the Saturday night meeting
the story of how AA got started in LA was
told and apparently made it look like Mort
was the sole founder of AA in Los Angeles.
The story did not settle well with some of
the early AAs and this started a heated letter
writing campaign to set the record straight.
Letters were sent to members, groups and central
offices with a copy of Kaye’s 1947 letter trying
to show what they believed to be an accurate
account of how AA got started in LA, but it
didn’t do much good.

The little blue booklet "How A. A. Came to
Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us now)" was
printed in the early 1980’s by the Southern
California Archives Committee. When it first
came out there were jokes that they had to wait
until some long timers died before they dared
published their version. From what I know now
I am not surprised if there was some truth in
those jokes.

Even AA Comes of Age (page 91) has a version
similar to the blue booklet. Kaye Miller had
gotten an advanced cope of AA Comes of Age and
was very irritated with Bill’s version of
events. While doing research a couple years
age at the GSO Archives in New York I saw at
least 2 letters from Kaye to Bill pleading
with him to revise his version before it was
published. He did make a couple of changes but
nothing like Kaye wanted. In one of Kaye’s
letters she even hinted some of the blame
falls with Mort for not setting the record
straight back in 1951 when he had a chance.

The 1947 letter might generate more questions
than answers, but I feel it shows Kaye's
meeting was going strong when Mort started
his meeting despite what the booklet says.
I plan on doing some research in the LA Central
Office Archives in June on other topics but
maybe I can find out some additional informa-
tion on this subject at that time.

I have included the redacted text of the 1947
letter for you to enjoy.

Hope this helps

Charles from California

******************************************

February 8, 1947

To: Messrs: Bill W., Luis A., Barney H.,
Clarence O’B., Ham B., Fred H., Frank S.,
Pete C., Johnny Howe, Hal S., Dee G., Mort J.,
Cliff W., “Doc” H., Al M., Editor, The Eye
Opener

This is just one of those rambling "remem-
bering when" things. If most of you think I'm
off my rocker for writing this, that's O.K.,
because where else but in A.A. could I do odd
things without fear of finger pointing? It's
a "first among you cast the first stone" deal,
isn't it?

Third time's the charm. I first heard about
A.A. though Andy in 1937 -- remember, Bill?
It wasn’t AA then -- The Book hadn't been
published yet. But I was sure Ty wouldn't go
for it. Smart guy I was -- I didn't even tell
him, just because God was involved. Then we
telephoned you in 1938, Bill -- but Ty wasn't
"ready". Then in April 1939 came to us in
West Los Angeles a mimeographed copy of the
Book. Did you keep that hysterical and
(I fear) dramatic telegram I sent - and the
follow-up? I shall never forget the utter
despair that filled me at your reply: "There
is a group in Akron, Ohio". Ohio! where Ty was
facing commitment for life if I returned him
and left him. Well- that ended right--with Ty
in A.A. But I remember that though I couldn't
believe you were alcoholics--you and Bob and
Hank and Marty, I still said that when I
returned to L.A. that I'd be glad to tell
anyone who was as desperate as I had been
that I'd seen 100 of you who said you'd been
alcoholics and that I knew you were decent
members of society now. But I got on an A.A.
jag on the boat coming back to L.A. Remember
Pat C. and how he got sober on the advance
sheets of the Book--his story "Lone Endeavor"
was in the first edition. I looked him up as
you asked me to Bill. I know he slipped and
went Fast--but at long last he is again trying
A.A. He may make it this time. You sent me
contacts, Bill, but there wasn't enough of
them, so I asked Alma Whitaker of the Times
to help--and she did.

From June 1939 to late November and nothing
definite accomplished--then our great and
wonderful break! On December 1st, 1939 was
sent to Johnny Howe, who was then Psychopathic
Probation Officer of A.A. county. He devoured
the Book and turned over to help A.A. all the
vast resources of L.A. County He and that
wonderful Mrs. Dodge! Then almost the same
day came the letter from Ruth Hock, New York
office's secretary, telling me that Lee T. was
coming to L.A. Here was opportunity -- a real
live member of A.A. coming here! We chose
December 19th as the date and I wrote to
everyone who'd contacted me, and on that date
in my little house on Benecia in West Los
Angeles the following met: Lee and Chuck T.,
Barney and Ethel H., Chauncey and Edna C.,
Dwight S. and his sister, Joey and Mrs. S.,
three non-alcoholic women, Johnny Howe and me!
Do you still have that telegram I sent in such
triumph: "Los Angeles held its first meeting
tonight. Fifteen present." Two meetings at my
house, then we moved to Barney H.s in Glendale,
then back to my house on Gower in Hollywood in
February, 1940. We alternated between Barney
and Ethel's house and mine. By then Hal and
Estelle S. had joined us (January 18, 1940).
What a terrific thing you did in starting the
San Diego group in the jail, Hal, and in
starting the groups in Lincoln Heights.

From December 19, 1939 to the present time,
Barney has never let a week go by without at
least one meeting attended. Clarence Mc.
joined us in early February or late January,
1940, and though he was a bar-tender, never
so much as sniffed at a drink from that time
on. All unbeknownst to us, another grand
member had been born. Mort J. got sober in
Palm Springs between Christmas and New Years
of 1939. It was in early April, 1940 you
telephoned me, Mort, wasn't it? You said
you had tried to start a group in Denver and
hadn't had too much success and had decided to
come back to L.A. and had gotten my name and
address from Bill. I treasured for years the
florist card on which you said: "For you
graciousness, you friendship and unfailing
hospitality", and the postscript you wrote on
one of those letters I sent weekly and some-
times daily to Bill reporting your progress:
"What this country needs is not a good five
cent cigar, but more Kayes." Is that still on
file, Bill? I blessed my secretarial training
for those carbon copies I kept, so I could
trace our progress. In February Lee started the
group that became the Pasadena Home Group. One
very illustrious early member of that group was
"Doc" H. – he led the downtown beginners group
for years. Then she went to San Francisco. Now
I hear she's in Florida. Los Angeles will always
be grateful to Lee for her untiring efforts for
us here. It was she who got the City Mother of
the Examiner to give us a break, and it was she
who got Ted Le Berthon's publicity for us.
Bill B. came to us in about March of 1940 and
what a God-send he was. Sober - a member of the
Chicago Group--wonderfully steady. How he
helped us in those trying early days. Then he,
too, went to San Francisco. Frank C. joined us
while we were meeting in the house we'd rented
as a clubhouse on Crescent Heights in 1940
(either March of April). What a relief it was
to be able to be sure the group was in your
capable hands, Mort, when I went back to
Honolulu in May of 1940, and what a splendid
job you did in building up the group and
laying the foundation for all the many groups
here in the Los Angeles area. L.A. will never
forget Frank R., and the wonderful work he and
you did working together. I don't know exactly
when Frank came in, but it was after May 5, 1940.

Now that I am again faced with leaving
Southern California A.A., I desperately want
to straighten up any misunderstanding. Joy S.
is the oldest member in point of sobriety in
A.A., but he hasn’t been to a meeting since
April or May of 1940. Barney H. was at the
first meeting, too, but he had a little
trouble at first. Hal S. is the oldest member
who stayed sober and came to meetings starting
January 18, 1940. Mort Joseph was sober three
weeks before Hal, but didn't come to a meeting
in L.A. until about April (1940) (Bill's office
would have the exact date). That original gang
was the foundation of the group now known as
the "Mother Group". They outgrew our homes and
rented space at the Cecil Hotel, from there
they progressed--when I was here in March of
1941 they met at the Elk's Temple.

A.A. in Southern California is so pure and
unadulterated, don't spoil it EVER. If there
MUST be any glory attached to A.A., let it
rest equally on Barney, Hal and Mort, and on
all those people who tried so valiantly in
those earl days-- and Bill P., Wally K.,
Owen F. --A.A. is too big for petty squabbles.
The truth is bound to come out. What does it
matter who was first? We've pioneered so many
things here in L.A.-all men and all women
groups, colored groups and non-alcoholic
groups. If they exist in the East, I couldn't
find them in Chicago or Washington, D.C.

I shall always remember Bill Wilson's words
to me: "Though I am proud to have been an early
member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I'd still sell
my title as `Founder' for $1.98." That's true
humility, and if it's good enough for Bill,
it's good enough for me.

/s/ Kay Miller
`Scuse the lousy typing

******************************************

Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote in Message 5010, "What
determines the date AA is founded in a city?"

Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was
December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A.
Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us
now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles.
He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth
Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone
number and address where she lived and had
meetings. He went over and asked "Where's
the meeting?" "There are no meetings any
more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going
to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the
members of A. A," he asked. "They are all
drunk," she said bitterly.

Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard.
She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be
the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on
Main street. Through the good offices of Dr.
Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the
mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first
public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at
8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA
have continued uninterrupted since that date.

0 -1 0 0
5018 Charles Grotts
Re: The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles 5/16/2008 6:45:00 PM

If you get the cassette tape of a program in
1975, hosted by Sybil, where Mort J. and some
of the old-timers who founded AA in Los Angeles
spoke, it will provide you with a lot of
information about how AA started in 1939 in
Los Angeles, died out, and was revived in 1940.

0 -1 0 0
5019 Mel Barger
Re: The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles 5/17/2008 9:56:00 PM

Hi Folks,

This is Mel B. from Toledo offering an
opinion about the start of AA in Los Angeles.
I interviewed Kaye Miller in Sarasota and her
former husband, Ty Miller, in Cleveland, both
around 1980. Ty, unfortunately, was so far
gone with Alzheimer's that he couldn't come
up with any accurate memories.

In October, 1948, I heard a Glendale man
named Barney Haller speak in Santa Barbara.
He said that a group of them were meeting at
the request of the courts in 1939, but their
meeting wasn't AA at the time. Then a woman
wearing a fur coat and carrying a Big Book
popped into one of their meetings and told
how the program had helped her ex-husband.
I believe this was Kaye Miller, and she had
carried the book from the East on a trip to
the West. Barney apparently claimed this as
the start of AA in LA.

I don't know if this can be verified or
not. But I toss it into the hopper as another
opinion. I did see Barney once again and as
late as 1959, when he was still an active
member of the Glendale group.

However AA got to California, it really
took off when it did. Ohio led all the states
in AA membership until 1948, when California
took the lead. We can assume California has
had the lead ever since. My theory is that
California was already full of people who had
taken geographical cures by moving west. Once
they got to California, they couldn't go any
farther so they had no choice but to sober up!

Mel


Mel Barger < melb@accesstoledo.com >
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

0 -1 0 0
5020 Debi Ubernosky
Re: 26 Big Book Prayers 26 Big Book Prayers 5/15/2008 12:37:00 AM

From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@verizon.net>
(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)

A Google search of "Prayers of the Big Book"
returned this:

http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ppgaa6%20Articles/Big%20Book%20Prayers.doc

which is what I've seen before.

Alternately, go to
http://www.ppgaadallas.org/aa_articles.htm
and scroll down to "Prayers of the Big Book"
and click to download the MS Word doc.

Debi

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Please go to:

http://www.justloveaudio.com
click on "free resources"
then click on "12 Steps"
then click on "Step 10 & 11"
then click on "Step 11 Prayers in the Big Book"

Happy hunting!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

From: "Donna Bridges"
<donnabridges1018@gmail.com>
(donnabridges1018 at gmail.com)

Start at page i, read through page 164 and note
as you find them...I'm sorry, I'm channeling my
sponsor

hugs to all,

db

- - - -

From: Jocelyn Geboy
<jocelyngeboy@sbcglobal.net>
(jocelyngeboy at sbcglobal.net)

i'm curious what you find out ... i find these
places where prayer is *explicitly* mentioned,
but i was going through the book pretty fast ...

pp. 59, 63, 67, 68, 69, 76, 83, 84, 85, 86, 86,
87, and 87

jocelyn

- - - -

Original Message No. 5015
From Hal <hallaws@yahoo.com>
(hallaws at yahoo.com)

> I am on the hunt for a list of what I have
> been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can
> anyone help point me in the right direction?
>
> THANKS!

0 -1 0 0
5021 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Editors of Second Edition: Tom P. Editors of Second Edition: Tom P. 5/19/2008 4:57:00 PM

Message #5003 from <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) noted that

"the chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B."

It went on to say that other editors included
"Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know)."
______________________________

In a further message (18 May 2008) to
mdingle76@yahoo.com (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)

Jared Lobdell added the following remark:

"Thanks very much. My guess had been it was
Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure.

I'd be interested to know which was the story
Tom included that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

0 -1 0 0
5022 Doris Ringbloom
Re:The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles The dispute over who founded AA in Los Angeles 5/19/2008 4:31:00 PM

Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was
Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940
at the South Pasadena Women's club. When
people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not
clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,
or Los Angeles county.

Doris R.

0 -1 0 0
5023 jax760
California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/20/2008 5:47:00 PM

Does anybody have any information on this
subject?

Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

0 -1 0 0
5024 Glenn Chesnut
Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous 5/23/2008 6:45:00 PM

From: "John Blair" <jblair@wmis.net>
(jblair at wmis.net)

Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous:
Nautis Project on UTube

See http://www.nautis.com/2008/05/22/jung-alcoholics-anonymous/

Or go directly to YouTube and see the original
video directly. It was posted by: amourxxx112,
and is entitled "Jung, Alcoholics Anonymous,
And Drug Seeking Behaviour"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceoB-tE5yWI

0 -1 0 0
5025 steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena 5/19/2008 5:32:00 PM

Unless I am mistaken, didn't Duke P. start AA
in Toledo? I heard him speak at his 56 year
(I think) anniversary in 99 or 2000 near
Jacksonville Florida.

He spoke a little about Toledo but that was
all. He didn't mention California.

We are talking about the Duke P. from "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers," correct?

- - - -

Message #5022 from
"Doris Ringbloom" <dringbloom@netzero.net>
(dringbloom at netzero.net)

Re: The dispute over who
founded AA in Los Angeles

Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was
Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940
at the South Pasadena Women's club. When
people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not
clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,
or Los Angeles county.

Doris R.

0 -1 0 0
5026 Sally Brown
Re: who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena who founded AA in Los Angeles / Pasadena 5/19/2008 7:19:00 PM

A historical footnote to Pasadena AA: Thanks
to the founding of an AA group around 1940
(this seems to be an unresolved date so far -
does GSO have a record?), a local resident,
Tom Pike, joined in 1946. Three years later,
in 1949, his equally famous wife, Katherine,
already a community leader (but not an
alcoholic), founded the Pasadena affiliate
of the National Council on Alcoholism.
Pasadena was the second Calif NCA affiliate,
after Santa Barbara. Both Pikes became
prominent leaders in NCA nationally.

This is a good example of AA's spillover
effect in many, many communities. Once AA was
established, NCA (NCADD today) then became
a primary mover and shaker in stimulating
communities to undertake the myriad tasks of
reducing the stigma of addiction that AA could
not, e.g. education beyond the AA membership
about addiction, lobbying for adequate medical
care of alcoholics, influencing local, state,
and federal legislation on behalf of alcoholics,
etc.

Marty Mann, the founder of NCA and herself a
very early member of AA (1939, NYC), said her
organization might never have got off the
ground if AA didn't already exist as an
excellent resource and solution for referral.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics
Anonymous

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650/325/5258

- - - -

Note from the moderator:

Tom Pike and Brinkley Smithers personally
lobbied President Nixon, their fellow
Republican, in support of the Hughes Act.
Brink eventually also enlisted the support
of Don Kendall, the CEO of Pepsi, and Nixon
finally signed the bill, which was the most
important piece of successful alcoholism
legislation in U.S. history. This provided
the basis, in many crucial ways, of the
modern alcoholism and drug addiction
treatment center.

See the book by Nancy Olson, who founded
the AAHistoryLovers, "With a Lot of
Help from Our Friends: The Politics of
Alcoholism," for the full story of how a
small number of AA members combined forces
to get that epoch-making piece of legis-
lation passed and implemented by the U.S.
Congress.

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)

0 -1 0 0
5027 steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
Re: California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/22/2008 3:11:00 PM

I know there were simlar court cases slightly
related to it. There is a movement to have AA
labeled as religion:

http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2007/09/07/chronicle/archive/2007/09/07/BA99S\
1AKQ.html


San Francisco Chronicle

Parolees can't be forced into
Alcoholics Anonymous, court rules

Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, September 7, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO - Alcoholics Anonymous, the
renowned 12-step program that directs problem
drinkers to seek help from a higher power,
says it's not a religion and is open to
nonbelievers. But it has enough religious
overtones that a parolee can't be ordered
to attend its meetings as a condition of
staying out of prison, a federal appeals
court ruled today.

In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of
Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional
dividing line between church and state in such
cases is so clear that a parole officer can be
sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go
through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous
or an affiliated program for drug addicts.

Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have
established that "requiring a parolee to attend
religion-based treatment programs violates the
First Amendment," the court said. "While we in
no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics
Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance
in their programs may not be coerced by the
state."

The 12 steps required for participants in both
programs include an acknowledgment that "a power
greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity," and a promise to "turn our will and
our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him." They also call for prayer
and meditation.

Today's 3-0 ruling allows a Honolulu man to go
to trial in a suit on behalf of his late father,
Ricky Inouye, who was paroled from a drug
sentence in November 2000. A Buddhist, he
objected to religiously oriented drug treatment
in prison, sued state officials over the issue,
and told Hawaii parole authorities just before
his release that he would object to any
condition that included a treatment program
with religious content.

When Inouye was arrested for trespassing in
March 2001 and tested positive for drugs, his
parole officer, Mark Nanamori, ordered him to
attend a Salvation Army treatment program that
included participation in Narcotics Anonymous
meetings, the court said.

Inouye showed up but refused to participate,
dropped out after two months, and, for that
and other reasons, was sent back to prison
in November 2001 for violating his parole.

After his release in 2003, he sued Nanamori
and others for violating his constitutional
rights. Inouye died while the suit was pending
and his son took over the case.

A federal judge dismissed the suit, saying
officers are required to pay damages for
violating constitutional rights only when
those rights are already clearly established.

But the appeals court said Nanamori should have
known in 2001 that coerced participation in a
religion-based program was unconstitutional,
because eight state and federal courts had
ruled on the issue by then and all had agreed
that a parolee has a right to be assigned to
a secular treatment program.

E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com
(begelko at sfchronicle.com)

- - - -

Original message From <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject? Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

0 -1 0 0
5028 Mitchell K.
Re: California Supreme Court California Supreme Court 5/22/2008 3:59:00 PM

From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton

- - - -

From "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@yahoo.com>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

It is interesting that this would even be called a
subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the
writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers
or some other AA bashing site.

I would think right off the top of my head that no
suppreme court would ban all literature from any
publisher regardless whether or not that publisher
promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks
in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall
any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts
have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a
religious activity but again, I do not recall any
ruling stating that AA was a religion.

I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially
students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great
Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques"
on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really
neat arguments. One will never win with these folks
(whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate
or discuss but to frustrate.

Upon review of the web site of the California Courts
( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about
this what I believe is another urban legend. I also
reviewed the California Department of Education web
site and again, found nothing relating to this.

Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings
stating that AA is a religious activity no longer
mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA
literature. One such edict can be found at
http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm
- The New York State Office of Alcoholism and
Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin
#2002-05

It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate
participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle
of separation of church and state."

Simply put according to what I looked at on the net -
URBAN LEGEND

- - - -

From: William Middleton <wmiddlet44@yahoo.com>
(wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com)

I "Googled" that sentence and it returned
this address....

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html

That article said:

"Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large
treatment agency accounts for two thirds of
the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature.
Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is
Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute
A.A. literature that the California Supreme
Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature
removed from the California schools on the
grounds that Hazelden was promoting a
religion."

May GOD Bless You!
Bill

- - - -

Original message from <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject? Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

0