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6185 lester gother
RE: Recovery rates Recovery rates 12/28/2009 5:00:00 PM


Hi All,



I have in my hands a survey of the Jersey Group dated January 1, 1940. This

is the mother group of AA in New Jersey which just last month celebrated 70

years. I will copy the results as written on the survey.







Total # contacted: 41



Total who have never taken a drink since joining: 19 > TOTAL SUCCESSFUL:

26



Number who have had only one slip since joining: 8



Number jailing thus far but still members: 6



Number jailed and dropped out: 6



Percentage of complete success: 46.3%



Percentage of successes/ complete or just one slip: 63.4%



Percentage of failures: 36.6%



Total sober time achieved by Jersey Group as a whole: 21years



Growth - 400% from 10 to 40 in last 9 months



Membership spread over 23 towns







I have placed here as failures 5 men who attended only 3 or 4 meetings at

most.



These men I feel, tho exposed to our idea did not take the treatment.



If we include only those who really tried the program for 3 months or more

our percentage of successes rises to 72.2%







13 members have now been dry for a period ranging from 6 months to 3 years.







Some of the members of the group include:







Henry P. (The Unbeliever)



Henry B. (A Different Slant) (Fred on pg. 39 in the BB)



Morgan R. (Spoke on the Gabriel Heatter radio broadcast "We the People")







I hope this sheds some light on the subject that has been questioned since

the second edition was printed in 1955. By the way I was a skeptic until I

did a lot of digging.







LOVE AND SERVICE



Lester Gother



Archivist



Area 44



Northern New Jersey



"HOME OF THE BIG BOOK"


0 -1 0 0
6186 jax760
Re: Recovery rates Recovery rates 12/30/2009 2:37:00 PM


I had done some research related to Bill's success rate assertion found in the

foreword to the second edition p.xx that may be of interest to you.



The first instance I had found of Bill quoting success rates was in a letter to

a New York Banker in July of 1938.



"Out of the some 200 cases with which we have dealt there seems to be

approximately 100 recoveries. So far as any of my doctor friends know, nothing

like this has ever happened in the world before with alcoholics commonly

regarded as incurable by the medical profession . . . "Letter from Bill Wilson

to Mr. Charles Parcelles, July 1, 1938.



Shortly after Bill repeats the claim in a letter to Dr. Cabot of Massachusetts

General Hospital.



"We have never developed any accurate statistical information but I should say

we have dealt with about 200 cases in all, almost half of whom seem to have

recovered." Letter from Bill Wilson to Dr. Richard Cabot – July 1938



The first time Bill publicly disclosed AA success rates was at the Rockefeller

Dinner in 1940.



"To continue with what had happened out in Akron. By the time the book was

published last April there were about one hundred of us, the majority of them in

the West. Although we have no exact figures, in counting heads recently, we

think it fair to state that of all the people who have been seriously interested

in this thing since the beginning, one-half have had no relapse at all. About

25% are having some trouble, or have had some trouble, but in our judgment will

recover. The other 25% we do not know about." Excerpts of the Rockefeller Dinner

Feb 8, 1940



There actually is proof (both pre and post release) of Bill's claims.

Note the significance of the part of the statement given at the dinner "...in

counting heads recently..."



*On January 1, 1940 the New Jersey Group of AA (A.A. Group #4) conducted a

survey of its membership which was used in part to provide A.A. success rates of

the for the Rockefeller dinner. The survey lists 41 names, addresses, and the

number of slips for the members, many of them well known pioneers. After the

list of names the following summary is given.



Total members contacted – 41

Total members who have never taken a drink since joining – 19

Number who have had only one slip since joining – 9

Total successful 26



Total failing thus far but still members – 6

Number failed and dropped out – 6

Number of complete successes – 46.3%

Number of successes complete or just one slip – 63.4%

Percentage of failures – 36.6%



Total sober time achieved by Jersey Group as a whole 21 years

Growth 400% - 10 to 40 in the last 9 months.



Membership spread over 23 towns.



I have placed here as failures 5 men who attended only 3 or 4 meetings at most.

These men I feel, tho (sic) exposed to our idea did not take the treatment. If

we include only those who really tried the program for 3 months or more our

percentage of successes rises to 72.2% - End of Summary.



Its clear to this writer that the NJ Group Survey was taken in preperation for

Bill's talk at the dinner. He also mentions statistics from the Chicago group

later in his Rockefeller talk. Interestingly enough the 75% success rate often

attributed to early AA in Akron would appear to be somewhat limiting based on

the NJ survey. The groups in both South Orange and Chicago (and perhaps the rest

of the fellowship) were at that time achieving similar success rates. Strong

program and one to one sponsorship of those "that really tried" were vitally

important to achieving the early success rates for "real alcoholics." (Big Book

p.21)



As Glenn points out the report issued in January of 2008 (AA Recovery Outcomes)

is most informative. Of importance to my research was the note found in the

second edition of the Big Book on an unnumbered page @168 preceding the personal

stories. If you do the math Bill's recovery rate assertions are again validated.



"When first published in 1939, this book contained twenty-nine

stories about alcoholics.

To ensure maximum identification with the greatest number

of readers, the new second edition (1955) carries a consider-

ibly enlarged story section, as above described.

Concerning the original twenty-nine case histories, it is a

deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that twenty-two have

apparently made a full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these

fifteen have remained completely sober for an average of sev-

eral years each, according to our best knowledge and belief."



*Excerpts from Chapter V of the manuscript The Golden Road of Devotion; " The

Rockefeller Connection"


0 -1 0 0
6187 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more early examples Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more early examples 1/1/2010 6:50:00 PM


EARLY NEW JERSEY:



This is in response to Lester Gother's posting of a survey of the New Jersey

Group dated January 1, 1940 which deals with a small group of only 41 people,

but nevertheless seems to show an outstanding success rate when we look at the

survey's initial claims, even though the mathematics seem to be a bit off:



Total members who have never taken a drink since joining -- 19

Number who have had only one slip since joining-- 9

Total successful 26

 

How do we get 26 out of 19 and 9? I begin to have less confidence in a set of

statistics when the mathematical calculations shown in the document don't work.



But anyway, it is only when we read all the way down to the end of the survey

that we realize that 30 of these 41 people in the database have only been

attending AA meetings for nine months or less -- many of them much less.



So the numbers in the database are too few, and the period of time over which

they have been tracked is FAR TOO SHORT in three quarters of these cases to make

any strong claims about long term success rates.



- - - -



People who defend the notion of extraordinarily high success rates in early AA

like to cite the New Jersey document nevertheless, because that particular set

of data fits their theories.  This is called cherry picking however, because

they are neglecting to look at other sets of data from that early period which

do not at all support their theories.



- - - -



EARLY MINNEAPOLIS:



So let us look instead at the figures for the early Minneapolis group, which are

much more carefully assembled, and cover a much longer period. These are

contained in an article from the Grapevine which was reprinted in Wally P., Back

to Basics Instructors Manual, rev. ed. April 2002.



You see, the problem is that people in early A.A. often kept their statistics in

forms totally different from what is customarily used today. We have what appear

to be some fairly careful statistics kept in Minneapolis, for example, from 1943

to 1945, given in this article in the Grapevine. But as we shall see, even

though we can make a few useful observations, these figures are in fact very

difficult to translate into a modern format.

 

The headline says they were achieving a 75% success rate, which is in fact

incorrect. They liked the figures "50%" and "75%" so much that they tended to

adjust numbers in that direction whenever possible. This was not necessarily to

make themselves look good. The actual figures given in the article below the

headline show a 77% to 83% overall success rate, which in fact is actually

higher.

 

The problem is that the way they have manipulated the figures to make them come

out that way is entirely different from the way in which success and retention

rate figures are calculated in all the modern data.

 

The way we usually give success rate figures in modern studies of AA, is to take

a large group of people who have been encouraged to attend a few AA meetings

(many of them perhaps court ordered, and others trucked in rather unwillingly

from treatment centers run by psychiatrists who are hostile to AA and let their

patients know how silly they think AA is). Now if 77% to 83% of these people

were to decide that they actually WANTED to quit drinking, and threw themselves

wholeheartedly into AA, and were found to still be clean and sober three years

later, and even five years later, this would be quite an extraordinary

accomplishment indeed.

 

And there are people today who would want us to believe that there was some

version of early AA which can take one hundred court appointed people who had

been convicted of drunk driving, and can turn seventy-five of them into sober

and dedicated AA members, "just like in the good old days."

 

But let's look a little harder at the Minneapolis statistics. Large numbers of

the people who were in their early months were going back out and getting drunk

again, and only a very small percentage indeed of these people ever came back

and tried to get sober again. And they were excluding from the count all those

who had not completed their first 90 days successfully (where the number who

quit and got drunk again was presumably very high indeed, probably close to an

80% failure rate, for the part of the curve which they did reveal was clearly an

exponential curve).

 

But their people with 3 years, 4 years, and 5 years sobriety were all staying

sober. This counterbalanced all the newcomers who were failing to make it. So in

any given year, they could truthfully say that 77% to 83% of THEIR TOTAL

MEMBERSHIP was staying sober.

 

That did not at all mean that 77% to 83% of the newcomers who walked into their

meetings for the first time were going to end up permanently sober.

 

So for example, of those who had completed their first 90 days, but had not yet

completed a full six months, the Minneapolis chart tells us that 52% of these

people went out and got drunk again. And between six months and nine months,

there was still a hefty 30% who went back out and got drunk. This was an

incredibly high failure rate.

 

These figures from 1943 to 1945 are not better than modern AA. In fact, based on

the figures in the Triennial Reports, this was WORSE than modern AA. We do a

whole lot better than that nowadays, at least with the people who have been in

the program between three months and nine months, where their problems in

Minneapolis seem to have been greatest.

 

The A.A. Grapevine, August 1946, Page 1

Minneapolis Record Indicates that 75% Are Successful in A.A.

 

The Minneapolis Group, in March, 1943, inaugurated a system for keeping a record

of the sobriety of members from three months on up. As a result, the following

exact percentages have been arrived at:

 

For the Year 1945

 

5-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped

4-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped

3-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped

2-yr. members ... 89% successful ... 11% slipped

18-mo. members ... 90% successful ... 10% slipped

1-yr. members ... 80% successful ... 20% slipped

9-mo. members ... 82% successful ... 18% slipped

6-mo. members ... 70% successful ... 30% slipped

3-mo. members ... 48% successful ... 52% slipped

(Of those who slipped in 1945, only 16-1/2% have worked back to any degree of

sobriety.)

 

Over-all Percentages

 

1943 78% successful 22% slipped

1944 83% successful 17% slipped

1945 77% successful 23% slipped



- - - -



MODERN A.A.



In the modern AA figures -- see http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf -- we follow

newcomers month by month for an entire year, and we don't rely on whether the

person says that he or she has been continuously dry, but merely record

continued attendance at AA meetings. And then our figures record how many have

been attending AA meetings for over one year, over five years, over ten years,

and so on. Since it is only rarely that people continue to attend AA meetings

over a long period of time if they are still drinking regularly (although we

certainly had a couple of people in my home group back in the past who kept on

drinking for ten to fifteen years before they finally got sober!), it is clear

that MODERN A.A. HAS A VERY IMPRESSIVE LONG TERM SUCCESS RATE.



- - - -

 

EARLY PHILADELPHIA:



The early Philadelphia figures are a lot like the early New Jersey figures, that

is, the majority of the successes they are claiming, which they are using to

claim such a prodigiously high success rate, are based on cases where the people

have only been dry for three or four months (or in one case just a single

month).  There is no workable way to compare them very well with modern AA

retention rate figures like the ones just mentioned. But here is what the

Philadelphia figures said:



Philadelphia A.A. Statistics 1940-1941

 

The Philadelphia A.A. group was formed February 20, 1940

 

Special Report On AA Work At The Philadelphia General Hospital

 

December 13, 1940

 

The following is the complete experience of the Philadelphia A.A. Group with

patients of the Philadelphia General Hospital since March 15. On this list are

included only those men who have attended at least two or three A.A. meetings

and have signified their intention of following the A.A. program.

 

Brief notes on the various individuals follow (the original letter had full

names & addresses):

 

Joseph A. - Dry seven months, no trouble.

Frank B. - Dry five months, one slip after he left group one month ago.

Herbert C. B. - Dry four months, no trouble.

Joshua D. B. - Probably psychopathic; continuous slips.

Charles J. C. - Dry nine months, no trouble.

John D. - Dry four months through Philadelphia General Hospital and Byberry.

Joseph D. - Dry four months, no trouble.

George G. - Dry one month, no trouble.

John H. H. - Continuous slips before and after hospitalization.

William K. - Dry four months, no trouble.

Alfred K. - Dry four months, no trouble.

Arthur T. McM. - Dry eight months, no trouble.

William P. - Continuous after two hospitalizations, only attended five meetings,

no work.

Harry McC. - Dry eleven months, one slip two months ago, hospitalization then.

James S. - Continuous slips before and after hospitalization.

George K. - Continuous trouble up to two months ago, first hospital May.

C. M. M. - Dry nine months, no trouble.

Hugh O'H. - Dry two months, no trouble.

Edmonds P. - Dry nine months, hospitalization recent, trouble since.

William J. P. - Dry three months, no trouble.

James R. - Dry five months, no trouble.

William R. - Dry six weeks, no trouble.

Carl R. - Dry eight weeks.

Biddle S. - Dry four months, hospital trouble now dry one month.

Thomas S. - Dry four months, one slip.

David W. - Dry seven months, no trouble.

William W. - Dry nine months, no trouble.

Margery W. - Dry three months, no trouble.

 

Nineteen out of twenty-eight who have come through the Philadelphia General

Hospital have had no trouble. Of the nine who have had trouble, five have been

with the group and had trouble previous to hospitalization.

 

This list was made at the request of Jack Alexander, writer for the Saturday

Evening Post.

 

(Signed) A. W. Hammer M. D. - Surgeon

(Signed) C. D. Saul, M. D. - Chief resident, Saint Luke's Hospital

(Signed) Philadelphia General Hospital, By: John F. Stouffer M. D. - Chief

Psychiatrist

 

*************************

 

From:

AA

Philadelphia Group

Post Office Box 332

William Penn Annex

 

To:

Alcoholic Foundation

30 Vesey Street

New York, N. Y.

December 14, 1940

 

Gentlemen:

 

We believe that the time has arrived when we can give you a preliminary

statement of the results of the work of Alcoholics Anonymous in Philadelphia

since its inception in this city on February 20, 1940. This in effect is a ten

months' report but for all practical purposes it can be considered only nine

months because about a month was occupied in working out methods of prosecuting

the activities.

 

According to the records of the Group, which have been kept with reasonable

accuracy, ninety-nine men and women have during this period attended at least

two meetings of the A. A. Group. In other words, they have had a fair

opportunity to familiarize themselves with the A. A. program of recovery as

given at the Thursday night meetings held at Saint Luke's and Children's

Hospital.

 

Of the ninety-nine, seventy have remained dry without any slip at all; thirteen

others are recovering from one or more slips, and sixteen have slipped without

recovery up to the present time. It is not impossible that some of these sixteen

may yet return to the Group.

 

Of the seventy, who have been dry without slips, thirty-nine have been dry from

one to three months; seventeen from three to six months; twenty-five from six

months to a year, and five from one to three years.

 

Obviously these five were not dried up through the activities of the

Philadelphia A. A. Group but have recovered from alcoholism in other localities

and through other means.

 

You can see that the Philadelphia A. A. Group has a core of thirty men who, we

have every reason to believe, will never drink again. Seventeen more have gotten

by the three months' critical period. It has been our observation that the first

three months are the most difficult and that the man who gets by that period has

every reason to believe that he is on the road to complete recovery.

 

We are even more sanguine of results which shall be achieved since we succeeded

in opening our clubhouse about one month ago. It is being used extensively,

especially by the unmarried men and is proving helpful not only as a social

center but as a base for the spreading of the A. A. message.

 

We can testify as physicians to the increasing interest in A. A. work among

members of the medical fraternity and are grateful for the opportunity that the

A. A. has given us of assisting in the recovery of the unfortunate victims of

alcoholism.

 

(Signed) A. W. Hammer M. D. - Surgeon

(Signed) C. Dudley Saul, Chief Resident Saint Luke's Hospital

 

*************************

 

Statistical Record of Philadelphia Alcoholics Anonymous Group (dated 9/29/41)

 

The Philadelphia A. A. Group was formed February 27, 1940, with seven men as a

nucleus. Six of these are definitely recovered cases.

 

We consider a man or woman an active member of A. A. when they have been dry in

the group two months and have attended at least six general meetings.

 

We now have an ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP of one hundred and thirteen alcoholics,

eighty-three of whom have not had a drink since their first A. A. meeting.  Five

of these have been dry from two to four years, twenty-seven dry from one to two

years, forty-one dry from six to twelve months and twenty-six dry three to six

months.

 

Twenty-three of these active members came directly from the Philadelphia General

Hospital, thirteen from other hospitals and institutions.

 

There have been only twenty-three active members who do not appear to be

recovering. These are not included in the above figures. Neither are the fifty

other men and women who are now in the process of becoming members.

 

This gives us a total general membership of Two Hundred men and women.

 

To the best of our knowledge, the foregoing is correct.

 

(Signed) Dr. A. Weise Hammer

(Signed) Dr. C. Dudley Saul

Medical directors



- - - -



MODERN A.A. RETENTION RATES



And again, I would ask you to look at all of the data about early AA success

rates collected in http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf and analyzed in detail in

pages 14-18 and 22-23.



Please, YOU HAVE TO DO THE WORK required to look at ALL the surviving documents

from the early AA period, and you have to read and think about "the fine print"

in each of those early claims.

 

The important thing to note is how frequently the 50%-75% rule had a guarding

phrase added: "of those who tried" or "of those who genuinely wanted to stop

drinking."  And this was coupled with the admission that only 2 or 3 out every 5

people whom they tried working with seemed to them to "really try."

 

If the 2 out of 5 people formula is followed, this means that in early AA, only

50% of the 40% who "really tried" actually got sober and stayed sober the first

time they tried AA, which means only a 20% success rate the first time around.

 

We can compare this with the retention figures which we see in

http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf which indicate that in modern AA, 56% of the

people who have completed 90 days of attending AA meetings, will still be

attending AA meetings at the end of the year.



I'm not trying to make early AA "look bad," merely trying to point out that we

need to quit trying to compare apples with oranges. The truth seems to be that,

in so far as we can put early AA figures and modern AA figures on the same

statistical basis, they did pretty good back in the old days, and WE STILL DO

EXTREMELY GOOD TODAY, maybe even a little better (because of more people with

many more years of experience who can serve as guides and sponsors and good

examples to the newcomers).



The main thing though, is to kill this total nonsense which can still be seen in

places on the web, going back originally to Richard K. <goldentextpro@aol.com>

(goldentextpro at aol.com) and his supporters, see Message 1351



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1351



Richard K. insisted that modern AA has only a 2.4 - 4.8% success rate, based

partly on a total failure to understand the statistics in the A.A. Triennial

Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989. But his backers and supporters started

vigorously posting those figures (sometimes abbreviated as "modern AA has been

proven to only have a 5% success rate") every place on the internet which would

let them post messages.



Their argument today is "but of course the 5% success rate figure is true, you

see it cited everywhere on the internet so it MUST be true"!!!!


0 -1 0 0
6188 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Buddhism and AA Buddhism and AA 12/28/2009 2:02:00 PM


From Ted G. and Baileygc23



- - - -



From: Ted G. = "Edward" <elg3_79@yahoo.com>

(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)



Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age p.81 has a

reference to a Thai Buddhist abbot approving

the Twelve Steps, quoted in As Bill Sees It

p.223.



Y'all's in service,



Ted G.



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



Interest in Buddhism went back of AA into the

Oxford Group period. In his historical novel

Wide is the Gate (1943), Upton Sinclair described

Oxford Groupers holding séances in London with

a self-proclaimed medium who claimed to channel

the spirits of the Indian chief Tecumseh and a

long-dead Ceylonese Buddhist monk.



This account (from AA Literature) is also worth

reading: an excerpt from the author of the

"Physician, Heal Thyself!", interview with the

Grapevine (GV). October 1995 edition.



GV: Have you had periods in sobriety that were

emotionally difficult?



Dr. Earle: Oh my, yes. So did Bill -- you know

that Bill had a long depression. Let me tell

you how I got at some emotional rest. Years

ago, a medical college in the South asked me

to go to Saigon as a visiting professor to

help the Vietnamese set up a new department

in gynecology and obstetrics.



Before I left, I went back to see Bill and Lois

and Marty M. and some others, and I spent about

eight or nine days back in New York before I

went to Asia. Bill took me to the airport and

on the way there he said, "You know, Earle,

I've been sober longer than anyone else in our

organization. After all I was sober six months

when I met Bob. But," he said, "I don't have

too much peace of mind." He said, "I feel down

in the dumps a hell of a lot."



So I said, "So do I, Bill. I don't have much

serenity either." I was sober by this time

maybe sixteen, seventeen years. He said,

"Do me a favor. When you get over to Asia,

see if you can investigate firsthand, the

various religions in Asia. That means Hinduism,

Buddhism, and Taoism, and Confucianism and

ancestral worship and the whole shebang."



And I said, "All right, I'll do it." And he

said, "Stay in contact with me and maybe we

can find something in those religions. After

all, we've taken from William James, we've

taken from all the Christian religions. Let's

see what these others have."



So I hugged Bill and got on the plane and went

to Asia. I had three or four rest and relaxation

periods a year but I didn't rest and relax. I

was determined to find something that would

bring peace and serenity to me. I spent a lot

of time in Nepal and in Indonesia. I spent time

in India.



I went into these places looking, looking,

looking for serenity. I spent two or three

years just driving to find out something. I

tried meditation, I read the Bhagavad Gita,

the Vedas -- everything. I went to an ashram on

the southeast coast of India, run by a very

famous guru and saint. There were about a hundred

and fifty East Indians there. I was the only

Westerner and they welcomed me. I wore a dhoti

-- that's a white skirt that men wear --

and I wore one like the rest of them did. We

all ate on the ground on great big banana

leaves over a yard long. There would be food

on the banana leaves and you'd make it into a

ball with your right hand and throw it into

your mouth. There were no knives or forks at

all, so I did what they did. I didn't like the

taste very much but I did it.



I happened to be there at the time of the Feast of Dewali. Dewali is like our

time of Easter; it's the time of renewal. We were awakened on the early morning

of Dewali around two o'clock. This ashram was located at the base of a mountain

known as Arunachal. Now Arunachal in Hindi means sun, and the myth goes that one

of the gods, Rama, lives inside of this mountain.



We were told we had to walk around the base of this mountain-which was a ten

mile walk-and as we walked, we were yelling to Rama. If you do it in a very firm

and believing way, it's said that Rama will come up and wave at you and bless

you. I was there, and I did it. We walked around and we were yelling "Rama,

Rama, Rama" hoping that Rama would come up and bless us all. They all walked in

their bare feet. I didn't, I wore my shoes. Gosh, I was tired. But I walked all

night long, the whole distance.



After that event, I came back to my little apartment in Saigon, ready to return

to my medical work. I was so beaten because I'd been driving and searching and

clenching my fists for almost three years (and I kept writing to Bill about all

this, you know). And I came into my apartment and I suddenly collapsed down onto

the floor. I lay there breathing kind of heavily and I said to myself, "Oh to

hell with serenity, I don't care if it ever comes."



And I meant it. And do you know what happened? All of a sudden the craving to

find serenity utterly evaporated-and there it was. Serenity. The trouble was the

search . . . looking out there for what was right here.



You know, we only have this given second. There's always now. Once I realized

that, serenity became mine. Now -- I'm speaking about emotions -- I haven't

sought one single thing since that day because it's all right here. I often say

to people at meetings. "You're trying to find peace of mind out there. I don't

blame you, but it isn't out there. It's here. Right here."



Now do I think there is a supreme being, a God? Sure I do. Of course. But do I

have any religious beliefs? No. Religion demands that you do certain things and

my life in AA isn't like that. AA is a very loose-Jointed organization. People

say there is only one way to work the program. That's crazy. We talk about the

"suggested" Steps, which are guides to recovery, not absolutes. Chapter five of

the Big Book says "no one among us has been able to maintain anything like

perfect adherence to these principles." If we had all the members of AA standing

here, everyone would have a different idea what AA is all about. Bill's idea was

different from Dr. Bob's, yours will bedifferent from mine. And yet they're all

based on one thing and that is: don't drink, and use the Twelve Steps in your

own way.



- - - -



SEE ALSO HIS BIOGRAPHY IN THE WEB SITE ON

THE AUTHORS OF THE STORIES IN THE BIG BOOK:



http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm



Dr. Earl M. San Francisco Bay area, California

"Physician Heal Thyself"

2nd edition p. 393, 3rd edition p. 345, 4th edition p. 301



Earle had his last day of drinking and using drugs on June 15, 1953. An A.A.

friend, Harry, took him to his first meeting the following week, the Tuesday

Night Mill Valley A.A. group, which met in Wesley Hall at the Methodist Church.

There were only five people there, all men: a butcher, a carpenter, a baker, and

his friend Harry H, a mechanic/inventor. He loved A.A. from the start, and

though he has been critical of the program at times, his devotion has remained

constant.



Described in his story heading as a psychiatrist and surgeon, he was qualified

in many fields. During his long career, he has been a prominent professor of

obstetrics and gynecology, and an outstanding clinician at the University of

California at San Francisco. He was a fellow of the American College of Surgeons

and of the International College of Surgeons, a diplomat of the American Board

of Obstetrics and Gynecology, board-certified psychiatrist, vice-president of

the American Association of Marital and Family Therapists, and a lecturer on

human sexuality.



He was raised in San Francisco, but was born on August 3, 1911, in Omaha,

Nebraska, and lived there until he was ten. His parents were alcoholics. In

Omaha they lived on the wrong side of the tracks, and he wore hand-me-down

clothes from relatives. He was ashamed of this, and could not begin to accept it

until years later. He revealed none of this in his story. Instead he talked

about how successful he had been in virtually everything he had done. He said he

lost nothing that most alcoholics lose, and described his skid row as the skid

row of success.



But in 1989 he wrote an autobiography by the same title, which reveals much more

of his story.



During his first year in A.A. he went to New York and met Bill Wilson. They

became very close and talked frequently both on the phone and in person. He

frequently visited Bill at his home, Stepping Stones. He called Bill one of his

sponsors, and said there was hardly a topic they did not discuss in detail. He

took a Fifth Step with Bill. And Bill often talked over his depressions with

Earle.



In a search for serenity Earle studied and practiced many forms of religion:

Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and ancestor worship.



He has long been a strong advocate for the cross-addiction theory, and predicted

that over time we would see the evolution of Addictions Anonymous.



When he was sober about ten years, Earle developed resentments against newcomers

and began a group in San Francisco for oldtimers. It was called The Forum. He

wrote a credo for it designed of ten steps for chemically dependent people. He

felt that addiction represents a single disease with many open doors leading to

it: alcohol, opiates, amphetamines, cocaine, etc. Most of the Forum members were

also devoted A.A. members.



He also established a new kind of A.A. group, which used confrontational

techniques. Some A.A. members disliked it intensely, while others seemed to gain

a great deal from it.



Many alcoholics make geographic changes when they are drinking. But Earle seems

to have made his after achieving sobriety. He has lived in many places, both in

this country and abroad, traveled around the world three times, and attended

A.A. everywhere he went. He also married several times.



In 1968 he divorced his first wife, Mary, whom he had married in 1940. She once

told him she had great respect for him as a doctor, but none as a human being.

He admitted that he'd had affairs during the marriage, even after joining A.A.

His relationship with their only child, Jane, who was a very successful opera

singer, was strained, but he gave her an opportunity to air her feelings in his

book. She wrote that when she received the gold medallion at the International

Tchaikovsky Voice Competition in Moscow in 1966, a high honor, her father did

not attend. Some people told her that it was not easy for him to see her become

such a success -- to be so in the public eye. She added that their paths were

still separate, but she did not ever totally close a door because he WAS her

father.



In the 1960s he was experimenting with encounter and sensitivity awareness

groups, which were then in vogue. At one of the encounter marathons he met his

second wife, Katie, and within a year they were married and soon moved to Lake

Tahoe. They lived separately except for two brief periods, and after a few years

were divorced.



Later he accepted a job with the U.S. State Department at the University of

Saigon Medical School, in Korea. He spent five years there, after which he

returned to San Francisco, hoping to rekindle his marriage to Katie.



In September 1975 he moved to Hazard, Kentucky, to work at the Hazard

Appalachian Regional Hospital. There he met his third wife, Freda, thirty years

younger than he was. Freda came from a truly humble background. She was the

daughter of a miner who had died of black lung disease. She and her six brothers

were raised in a typical two-room coal miner's house in Hazard. During his

relationship with her and her family he was able to put to rest some ghosts

concerning his Nebraska background. This wonderful family helped him to

re-evaluate his memories of Omaha.



In 1978 his feet began again to itch again. He accepted short-term job in Napal.

When he was offered a long-term assignment Freda and his stepsons did not want

to leave Kentucky. Disappointed, he returned to Kentucky, and obtained work as a

gynecologist in a family planning clinic, and also lectured to medical students

on human sexuality at the University of Louisville Medical School. When he moved

again, this time to Kirkland, Washington, Freda again refused to leave Kentucky.

They were divorced soon after. They remained friendly and talked to one another

on the phone about twice a year.



From all his travels, he always seemed to return to the San Francisco Bay Area.

In 1980 he accepted a position as medical director of the Institute for Advanced

Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco. There he met his fourth wife, Mickey.

She was a Ph.D. candidate at the Institute. He described her as a vibrant, open,

honest, direct woman without pretense, non-threatening, sexually on fire,

lacking in prejudice, and tolerant about all aspects of life -- including human

sexuality. She was already an Al-Anon member when they met, having been married

to an alcoholic. She also made contributions in the field of alcoholism and

recovery at Merritt Peralta Chemical Dependence Recovery Hospital in Oakland,

California. They married and remained together until her death in 2000. His book

is dedicated to her.



I talked to Earle on July 27, 2001. He told me he still gets to an A.A. meeting

almost every day. His eyesight is not too good, but otherwise he is full of vim

and vigor. Form his voice, I would have taken him for a man of 40. He missed the

A.A. International Convention last year because of Mickey's ill health, but he

hopes to attend the one in 2005.


0 -1 0 0
6189 Arthur S
Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs 12/28/2009 7:07:00 PM


An omission on my part - Lois' grandfather

Nathan Clark Burnham, a Swedenborgian minister,

performed the wedding ceremony.



Arthur



- - - -



From: Arthur S

Subject: Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham

family's religious beliefs



A small Swedenborgian factoid:



On January 24, 1918, spurred by rumor that

Bill W might soon go overseas, he and Lois

were married at the Swedenborgian Church of

the New Jerusalem in Brooklyn, NY. The wedding

date was originally scheduled for February 1.

Lois' brother Rogers Burnham was best man (he

was also reputed to be good friends with Bill).



Cheers



Arthur


0 -1 0 0
6190 Arthur S
Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect Huxley on Bill W. as social architect 12/28/2009 8:13:00 PM


Big Book (pg 125): "We alcoholics are sensitive people"



Baileygc23, message 6169 was not a criticism

of you -- it was a criticism of the way many AA

members seem to take broad-brush and back-handed

swipes at religion.



Bill W's statements to the American Psychiatric Association 105th Annual

Meeting in Montreal (May 1949) noted that:



"Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization; there is no dogma.

The one theological proposition is a "Power greater than one's self." Even

this concept is forced on no one. The newcomer merely immerses himself in

our society and tries the program as best he can. Left alone, he will surely

report the gradual onset of a transforming experience, call it what he may.

Observers once thought A.A. could appeal only to the religiously

susceptible. Yet our membership includes a former member of the American

Atheist Society and about 20,000 others almost as tough. The dying can

become remarkably open minded. Of course we speak little of conversion

nowadays because so many people really dread being God-bitten. But

conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic

process; all other devices are but the foundation. When one alcoholic works

with another, he but consolidates and sustains that essential experience.

... We like to think Alcoholics Anonymous a middle ground between medicine

and religion, the missing catalyst of a new synthesis. This to the end that

the millions who still suffer may presently issue from their darkness into

the light of day! ..."



[==THIS IS THE INTERESTING PART==]



"I am sure that

none attending this great Hall of Medicine will feel it untoward if I leave

the last word to our silent partner, Religion: God grant us the serenity to

accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and

wisdom to know the difference."



This is a bit of a different context than you originally cited. Bill W did

not distance himself from religion - he wished only to avoid the perception

or action of affiliation. The closest individual friendship Bill had (in

terms of a genuine sponsor) was Father Edward Dowling, a Jesuit priest. Dr

Bob had the same type of friendship with Sister Ignatia, a Catholic Nun.

Bill W and Dr Bob treated them both with respect and affection and did not

consider them pariahs. Bill W also underwent 2 years of personal instruction

with Bishop Fulton J Sheen with the intention of converting to Roman

Catholicism. He later declined to convert reputedly because he did not want

to give the impression of affiliation.



Happy holidays (a contraction of "holy days")



Arthur



- - - -



Original message from: Baileygc23@aol.com

(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009

Subject: Re: Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect



Message #6169 from "Arthur S" was an extremely

lengthy criticism of me for saying, in Message 6165

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6165



"AA is not a Religious organization; there is

no dogma. The one theological proposition is

a power greater than one's self. Even this

concept is forced on no one."



That was a quote from Bill Wilson.



I am sorry if, in Arthur's opinion, Bill Wilson

got the AA position all wrong.


0 -1 0 0
6191 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: the term ex-alcoholic the term ex-alcoholic 12/28/2009 10:09:00 PM


What portion of the basic text used the term

"ex-alcoholic" and what was it changed to?



- - - -



From the moderator:



See Message 2258 from: Jim Blair

<jblair@videotron.ca> (jblair at videotron.ca)



1st Edition - changes made in the 11th Printing

- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."

- Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.

- P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

- P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

- P178-L20, Him to HIM.

- P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.

- P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding

- P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.



- - - -



Original Message from Tommy Hickcox in Baton Rouge

Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009

Subject: Re: More on Huxley etc. -- the term ex-alcoholic



I would note that the First Edition of our

Big Book used the term "ex-alcoholic" six times,

on pp. 28, 30, 271, 272, and 330, and it wasn't

until the 11th Printing in 1947 that it was

changed. I suspect the term was commonly used

then.


0 -1 0 0
6192 Arthur S
Religion and AA Religion and AA 12/28/2009 6:52:00 PM


From Jon Markle and Arthur S.



- - - -



From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com>

(arthur.s at live.com)



The Happiest of Holidays to you Jon



I think this could make for a good historical discussion, namely "where does

religion fit in AA and what does AA owe to religion"? The answer will likely

vary substantially based on one's choice of the meaning of "religion" and

"religious" and whether or not it is conditioned on disillusionment (you

seem to perceive religion as a peril).



There is also the matter of today's secularism (where the term "spiritual"

is used as a more palatable substitute for the word "religion"). I'm not

speaking of institutionalized Religion or a specific set of beliefs of a

particular denomination. Etymologically the words "religious" and

"spiritual" are interchangeable. Search the various dictionary sites on the

web and compare the definitions of the two words."



I'll borrow from the internet:



The word "spirit" and "spiritual" generally mean "of the soul" and are

derived from the Latin word "spiritus" (the breath of life). Interestingly

"spirits" also means distilled alcohol. Arguments over which German word to

use to express the equivalent of the word "spiritual" led to the great Big

Book copyright lawsuit of a few years ago.



The term "religion" (a difficult word to define) is defined here as "any

specific system of belief, worship, or conduct that prescribes certain

responses to the existence and character of God." (I don't include atheism

in this - it is a torturous non-sequitur promulgated by legal rather than

religious matters). The term "religious" is defined as "having or showing

belief in, and reverence for, God."



My assertion is that religion (and clergy) were, and remain, a great asset

to AA. No one, except you, is positing this with the absurd notion of

"religious interference in AA" that would "kill us all" and also the notion

of citing history "real or imagined" as being "dangerous." This is a history

special interest group. Don't go off track with hyperbole and editorial.



Bill W's statements to the American Psychiatric Association 105th Annual

Meeting Montreal, Quebec, May 1949 noted that:



"Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization; there is no dogma.

The one theological proposition is a "Power greater than one's self." Even

this concept is forced on no one. The newcomer merely immerses himself in

our society and tries the program as best he can. Left alone, he will surely

report the gradual onset of a transforming experience, call it what he may.

Observers once thought A.A. could appeal only to the religiously

susceptible. Yet our membership includes a former member of the American

Atheist Society and about 20,000 others almost as tough. The dying can

become remarkably open minded. Of course we speak little of conversion

nowadays because so many people really dread being God-bitten. But

conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic

process; all other devices are but the foundation. When one alcoholic works

with another, he but consolidates and sustains that essential experience.

... We like to think Alcoholics Anonymous a middle ground between medicine

and religion, the missing catalyst of a new synthesis. This to the end that

the millions who still suffer may presently issue from their darkness into

the light of day! ... I am sure that none attending this great Hall of

Medicine will feel it untoward if I leave the last word to our silent

partner, Religion: God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot

change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the

difference."



By the way quite a number of church congregations today have their own

recovery groups that use both the 12 Steps and the tenets of their faith and

are successful. I have a number of friends that attend both. Depending upon

one's outlook and attitude it does not have to be an either/or situation.



I remember when words such a "religion" and "church" were viewed with

respect and not considered anathema - it wasn't that long ago from "the

now".



Bill W asserted that AA's two best friends were religion and medicine.

That's still the world now.



Cheers

Arthur



PS - a final tidbit - what percentage of meetings do you think are held in

church halls at very nominal rental expense (i.e. Religions extending a

cooperative and helping hand to AA).



- - - -



From: Jon Markle (Raleigh, North Carolina)

<serenitylodge@mac.com> (serenitylodge at mac.com)

Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009



Responding to John Barton: I couldn't agree with

you more, John. Thanks for saying so.



AA is no more a religious program, as such, than it is a medical or

physiological or social program . . . even though large parts of our recovery

suggestions come from those disciplines as well.



It is the synthesis and the symbiotic relationship between all that is man that

seems to be the key to making it work for us alcoholics. The whole person

approach. Leave one part out, or emphasize only one aspect (say "religious" for

example) and the whole thing gets lopsided and is no more powerful -- if even

doable -- than the sum of that one component. And we all know the trouble the

Oxford people had getting us sober, permanently! <GRIN>



John Barton had written:



> <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

>

> The Big Book and Twelve and Twelve contain a

> fair amount of "theological propositions". Both books espouse the

> Christian-Judeo theology of the Bible with the frequent use of such terms as

> "Father, Creator, Maker, Father of Light who presides over us all, "Him",

> "He" etc. There is also significant use of bible quotes throughout both texts

> such as "Thy will be done", "The Father doeth the works", "Faith without works

> is dead" and many more too numerous and hopefully not necessary to quote here.

>

> As Nell Wing said Bill's greatest ability was that of a "synthesizer". Taking

> that which already existed from Medicine and Religion and adapting it to our

> special use.

>

> Whether or not AA is Spiritual, Religious, both, neither and whether of not

our

> twelve steps constitute "dogma" or "doctrine" would seem to be outside issues,

> best left to the experts in the fields of sociology and anthropology.

>

> I would also point out that just because AA says ......"xyz"..... or Bill W.

> said ..."abc".... doesn't necessarily make it so.

>

> God Bless



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>

(serenitylodge at mac.com)

Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009



It seems to me that the alleged "influence" of religion, especially Western

Christian influence, we read about upon AA is more of re-write of history by

those fanatics that would have it to be so. When in fact, AA was, in my

readings, more inclined to stay away from such dogmatic influences. Since

Christianity is the dominant religion here in the USA, it seeks to take the

credit for AA by coloring anything that has to do with "spirituality", as

"theirs".



A good historian of AA history should be able to realize this misguided, but

increasing attempt to hijack the Fellowship. And that is, I hope, one thing

this list needs to avoid, "religiously". <smile>



Thank you Les, and others here, for towing the line between what is speculation

and what is truth.



Jon Markle/MA

Retired Therapist & SA Counseling

Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality

HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations

Raleigh, NC

9/9/82



- - - -



Original message from: Jon Markle

Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009

Subject: Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect



Back in the day, so to speak, perhaps there is some basis to reason and

conclude that are mostly accurate, about no difference between "religion"

and "spiritual". But, I have my sincere doubts about such an observation,

having had some passing study of our colorful history (in AA) through this

group.



Historical facts can be cited by anyone to justify and support just about

any idea. But, that does not make it so.



However, today, it cannot be said that "religion" and "spiritual" are one in

the same. They are most decidedly NOT. And this is the world . . . the NOW .

. . that interests me most. We have resources and understanding today that

the drunks did not have back then. Dare I say, better? "More will be

revealed". Living in the past world will not help us grow. We must learn

from their mistakes. If religion offered us the answer we sought to have the

desire to drink removed, we would not need AA. Fact is, it didn't work.



And there's the crux. No one (I hope) wants religious interference in AA, I

think. That would indeed kill us all, I'm afraid. And attempts to justify

such moves, by citing "history" . . . real and imagined, are very damaging,

I think. And make AA into a thing that becomes both scary and

non-productive. Just like church could not get me sober, neither could an AA

meeting that sounds like church.



Jon Markle

Raleigh

9/9/82


0 -1 0 0
6193 J. Lobdell
Re: Religion and AA Religion and AA 12/28/2009 7:24:00 PM


I'm not sure that the AAHistoryLovers provides the proper platform for an

editorial saying "historical facts can be cited by anyone to justify and support

just about any idea" -- followed by comments about the present state of the

religious/spiritual dichotomy (or non-dichotomy).



Comments on current affairs in AA aren't really our meat, though an argument --

not simply dismissive comments -- on the possible false uses of history may be.



One question, of course, is what is meant by "religion" or "religious" -- on

that depend most of the useful things we could say about the dichotomy -- always

provided we have an agreed-upon definition of "spiritual" -- but I'm not clear

that we do. My own view fwiw is that by "spiritual" we mean pretty much what

was meant by "religious" back in the Washingtonian days, and by "religious"

pretty much what they meant by "Gospel" -- so that this isn't a new thing.



As to "justifying" religious interference in AA, I may have missed the reference

point -- I have no idea what is being talked about. Of course, the corporation

is incorporated under the laws of the State of New York and is considered by

that State as an religious body, so (I believe) that testimony cannot be

compelled from members on what was said in a closed meeting (there was a court

case not too long ago) -- being considered a "religious" body has certain

advantages, I suppose.



I understand that Jon M. (if that is our correspondent's name) wants to keep AA

out of "Church" hands, doesn't want organized religion in. Neither do I. If he

wants to correspond on the question with me individually, I would more than

welcome it: I suspect we agree on quite a lot. But is this the proper venue?



- - - -



This is responding to Jon Markle's message

Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009


0 -1 0 0
6194 jenny andrews
Re: Religion and AA Religion and AA 12/29/2009 8:50:00 AM


"Sensitivity to both the non-religious within the fellowship and the

professionally religious outside of it led Alcoholics Anonymous to resist

identification as an expression of religion. The plea within was for

'open-mindedness'. It infused AA from Dr Bob Smith's stress on 'tolerance' to

the final substantive paragraph of the Big Book's appendix, 'Spiritual

Experience': 'We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of

the program. Willingness, honesty and open-mindednness are the essentials of

recovery. But these are indispensable'."



(From chapter eight [The context of the history of religious ideas], Not God: a

history of Alcoholics Anonymous; Ernest Kurtz; Hazelden; 1991.)



It is confusing to conflate spirituality with religion; substitute religion for

spirituality in the BB appendix quotation to see the difference. Willingness,

honesty and open-mindedness are universal values not confined to religion.

Semantically spiritual also stands against material; recovery results from a

spiritual awakening; it is not a commodity.



(See Kurtz, Twelve Step Programs, in "Spirituality and the Secular Quest" [World

Spirituality series]; editor, Peter H. Van Ness; SCM Press; 1996.)


0 -1 0 0
6195 jaynebirch55
What psychological or mental diagnosis? What psychological or mental diagnosis? 12/29/2009 3:48:00 PM


Hi there,



Jayne from Barking Big Book study. Hope you

had a fantastic christmas and wishing you the

happiest of new years.



I was wondering if you could help me with any

of the following.



Chapter 5, How it works, "usually men and women

who are constitutionally incapable of being

honest with themselves." Have you any further

information on this, such as was it a particular

mental illness Bill was refering to?



Also in chapter 8, page 114 "Sometimes there

are cases where alcoholism is complicated by

other disorders" and "unless the doctor thinks

his mental condition to abnormal or dangerous."

Do you have any details as to what these might

been or what Bill may have been refering to?



Were they thinking of precise mental conditions,

and were there specific psychological terms

which were used at that time to refer to people

with these problems?



I look forward to your reply



God bless



Jayne x x x x



- - - -



From the moderator:



Or in the case of inability to be honest with

ourselves, was this more of a philosophical

issue? I am thinking of the existentialist

philosophers of that period. Jean-Paul Sartre's

concept of mauvaise foi (literally "bad faith")

meant an attempt to manipulate other people

by a kind of deception and lying to them about

what you really wanted, which ended up with you

simultaneously believing your own lies, while

also, at some other deep level, KNOWING that

you were lying.



So mauvaise foi becomes always, inevitably,

"self-deception" and refusal to be honest with

yourself.



In the attempt to control others, you end up

losing your own freedom. You are torn in two

inside. And you end up plunged into what the

existentialist philosophers called ressentiment.



In Heidegger and Nietzsche, likewise, we have

to lie to ourselves and "live a lie" in one way

or another, in order to maintain our inauthentic

existence, and flee from the power of real life

and freedom, and avoid honestly living life on

life's terms.



There is a deeply existentialist flavor to the

Big Book, probably arising from the Zeitgeist

(the spirit of the times), the deeply shaking

experience of the First World War, and so on.

You can see it affecting the Oxford Group also,

in Philip Leon's The Philosophy of Courage:



http://stepstudy.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/philosophyofcourage.pdf



Glenn C.

South Bend, Indiana, US


0 -1 0 0
6196 Tom Hickcox
Religion and AA Religion and AA 12/29/2009 11:20:00 PM


Jon Markle wrote:



>Back in the day, so to speak, perhaps there is some basis to reason

>and conclude that are mostly accurate, about no difference between

>"religion" and "spiritual". But, I have my sincere doubts about

>such an observation, having had some passing study of our colorful

>history (in AA) through this group.



- - - -



I was looking at a copy of an old pamphlet out of Washington of the

four classes for new alcoholics and this comes Discussion No. 2, The

Spiritual Phase, which includes Steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 11, and is part

of the discussion of Step 3:



"3. RELIGION is a word we do not use in A.A. We refer to a member's

relation to God as the SPIRITUAL. A religion is a FORM of worship,

not worship itself."



This is probably the view in the '40s.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



- - - -



From the moderator: this careful distinction

between religion and spirituality (the same

distinction that is so often made in modern AA)

was being made in AA as least as early as 1944,

as we can tell from the date on Bobbie Burger's

letter below.



This particular pamphlet (which was referred

to as the Tablemate, the Table Leader's Guide,

the Washington D.C. Pamphlet, or the Detroit

Pamphlet) was reprinted and used by early AA

groups all across the United States, from the

east coast to the west coast, and everywhere

in between.



So is it "orthodox" for AA people to continue

to make the common distinction between religion

and spirituality? If everybody in AA, all over

the country, was doing it back in the 1940's,

then it's certainly an acceptable part of the

AA historical tradition.



Wally P. says that "in the Fall of 1944, a copy of the Washington, DC pamphlet

reached Barry C[ollins] -- one of the AA pioneers in Minneapolis. He wrote a

letter to the New York headquarters requesting permission to distribute the

pamphlet. We talk about 'Conference Approved Literature' today; but this is the

way the Fellowship operated back then. This is a letter from Bobbie B[urger],

Bill W.'s secretary, printed on 'Alcoholic Foundation' stationary."



November 11, 1944



Dear Barry:



. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the new Cleveland "Sponsorship" pamphlet

and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually approve or

disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels each

Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and let it stand on its own

merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy.

But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I

think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to

see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each individual

Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts

them out.



Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger)


0 -1 0 0
6197 Marlo Daugherty
Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more ea Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more ea 1/2/2010 5:43:00 AM


As someone told me on a different subject, "Don't get so hung up in the words

that you miss the point of the story." Here's the way I see the "statistics" in

the Foreword to the 2nd Edition: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really

tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way. . ." OK. That means that

if you are an alcoholic (as opposed to something else) and you come to A.A. and

really try, you've got a 50-50 chance of never drinking again. Can't argue with

that!



evergreen78


0 -1 0 0
6198 jax760
Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more early examples Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more early examples 1/1/2010 10:22:00 PM


My mistake .... the nine is a seven on the

document, the error was mine



Total members who have never taken a drink since joining -- 19

Number who have had only one slip since joining-- 7

Total successful 26


0 -1 0 0
6199 diazeztone
Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs 1/2/2010 1:33:00 AM


In reading this post and a couple of others

I decided to do some reading tonite on the

Swedenborgian religion and their movment.



Wow, very surprising. I wonder how much Lois

and Bill talked about this. I wonder how many

times they attended Swedenborgian church masses

or meetings.



Was Dr. Bob involved in this in any way?



Their religion even included 12 steps to heaven!!



I lookforward to reading this new research also!



LD Pierce

www.aabibligraphy.com


0 -1 0 0
6200 Charlie C
Using WorldCat.org to find books in nearby libraries Using WorldCat.org to find books in nearby libraries 12/30/2009 8:23:00 AM


   Hi, I've been a college librarian for many years and would like to respond to

Octoberbabye's request for a book on Silkworth. It's nice to own books, but

borrowing from libraries can work too, and is a lot cheaper :-)



   If you want to know how available in libraries a book is, after first

checking your local library catalog, look at www.worldcat.org. This is the free

public version of a massive shared records site for libraries across the

country. You can look for a specific book or browse for books on a subject etc.



   Once you find something it will tell you what libraries in your zip code area

own it.



As an example here is the link to the record for the book in question:

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51063745



   Then you can either borrow the book in person, or, use the universal

"inter-library loan" system to request that your local library get the book for

you. The record from WorldCat gives you all the info you need to make your

request. Depending on your library, there may be a small fee to process the

request - usually a dollar or two.



   Something to think about too is that if you live near a university or college

library, they often make provision for area residents to use their collections,

again usually for an annual fee. The college library I work in charges $25 a

year to area residents to be able to borrow our books, not a bad deal really.



   Good luck in all your researches!



Charlie C.IM = route20guy

Go settle down

And quit your triflin' ways

'Cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days  Kitty Wells, Make up

Your Mind, 1950


0 -1 0 0
6201 cwojohnwalter
Minority opinion question Minority opinion question 1/6/2010 9:19:00 AM


Is there a recorded precedence in which the

minority opinion was heard and then swayed the

majority opinion enough to change or table the

vote?



I realize that this might happen at the individual

group level often but I am looking for some

documentation of it happening at the Regional or

Higher Level.



I am giving a presentation about the minority

opinion and Concept V and would like to geek it

out as much as possible.



Love and Service - John


0 -1 0 0
6202 cwojohnwalter
Is it necessary to ask the floor for any minority opinion? Is it necessary to ask the floor for any minority opinion? 1/6/2010 9:47:00 AM


After an issue is debated and all sides of

have been heard and after the vote is taken

and there is a simple or 2/3 majority (whichever

is required) than is it necessary to ask the

floor for the minority to state its opinion if

it so wishes?



I understand the importance of an informed group

conscience as well as substantial unanimity.



But again, my question is: Is it necessary to

ask the floor for the minority to re-state its

opinion once the vote has been taken?



Love and Service - John


0 -1 0 0
6203 jenny andrews
Re: Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA 1/2/2010 9:12:00 AM


"By personal religious affiliation, we include

Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and

sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists ... "



(Big Book, Foreword to second edition, 1955)


0 -1 0 0
6204 Aloke Dutt
Re: Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA 1/3/2010 7:51:00 AM


The Ashram Dr. Earle described at the foothill

of Arunachalam is close to Madras(now Chennai)



The famous guru/saint was Raman Maharishi,

more here:



http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/



- - - -



Original message 6188 from Baileygc23@aol.com

(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6188



... an excerpt from the author of the

"Physician, Heal Thyself!", interview with the

Grapevine (GV). October 1995 edition ....



Dr. Earle: I went back to see Bill and Lois

and Marty M. and some others, and I spent about

eight or nine days back in New York before I

went to Asia. Bill took me to the airport and

on the way there he said, "You know, Earle,

I've been sober longer than anyone else in our

organization. After all I was sober six months

when I met Bob. But," he said, "I don't have

too much peace of mind." He said, "I feel down

in the dumps a hell of a lot."



So I said, "So do I, Bill. I don't have much

serenity either." I was sober by this time

maybe sixteen, seventeen years. He said,

"Do me a favor. When you get over to Asia,

see if you can investigate firsthand, the

various religions in Asia. That means Hinduism,

Buddhism, and Taoism, and Confucianism and

ancestral worship and the whole shebang."



And I said, "All right, I'll do it." And he

said, "Stay in contact with me and maybe we

can find something in those religions. After

all, we've taken from William James, we've

taken from all the Christian religions. Let's

see what these others have."



... I spent a lot of time in Nepal and in

Indonesia. I spent time in India ....



I tried meditation, I read the Bhagavad Gita,

the Vedas -- everything. I went to an ashram on

the southeast coast of India, run by a very

famous guru and saint. There were about a hundred

and fifty East Indians there. I was the only

Westerner and they welcomed me. I wore a dhoti

-- that's a white skirt that men wear --

and I wore one like the rest of them did.



Etc., etc.


0 -1 0 0
6205 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Religion and AA Religion and AA 1/2/2010 12:22:00 PM


One of the most important messages in Ernie

Kurtz's great history of AA:



Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics

Anonymous, expanded edition (Center City,

Minnesota: Hazelden, 1991; orig. 1979):



Over the period of the writer's research, one

especially serious question was repeatedly asked

by both old-timers interviewed and others with

whom observations were shared. Perhaps this

question was at least partially inspired by

the brazenness of an attempt to write the

"history" of a still vigorously living

phenomenon, but it was nevertheless a serious

question always seriously asked: How long will

Alcoholics Anonymous last? Might it change so

that it will no longer be Alcoholics Anonymous?"



To be able to pretend to be able to answer

directly would be to claim the mantle of prophet

rather than that of historian: but for all those

who so queried, I can now offer explicitly at

least the intuition that their very questions

as well as this research have suggested.



Alcoholics Anonymous shall survive as long

as its message remains that og the not-Godness

of the wholeness of accepted limitation; and

this itself shall endure so long as A.A.

spiritualizers and its liberals -- its "right"

and its "left" -- maintain in mutual respect

the creative tension that arises from their

willingness to participate even with other of

so different assumptions and temperaments in

the shared honesty of mutual vulnerability

openly acknowledged.



Alcoholics Anonymous will live, in other words,

so long as it is "Alcoholics Anonymous":

"an utter simplicity which encases a complete

mystery" that no one claims perfectly to

understand.


0 -1 0 0
6206 grault
Re: Religion and AA -- What is AA''s legal status in the US? Religion and AA -- What is AA''s legal status in the US? 1/2/2010 6:18:00 PM


If available, I'd appreciate a cite to the

New York case you referred to. My understanding

was to the contrary: that although AA IS a

"religious organization" (in the view of the

New York court), there is no legal privilege

because there is no communication intended to

be confidential to a minister, rabbi, priest

or the like.



I also understood that because AA is viewed

as "religious," it has been held by a N.Y. court

to be unconstitutional for a judge to "sentence"

someone to go to meeting for a driving-while-

intoxicated offense.



- - - -



In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:



Of course, the corporation is incorporated under the laws of the State of New

York and is considered by that State as an religious body, so (I believe) that

testimony cannot be compelled from members on what was said in a closed meeting

(there was a court case not too long ago) -- being considered a "religious" body

has certain advantages, I suppose.


0 -1 0 0
6207 pvttimt@aol.com
Re: Religion and AA Religion and AA 1/2/2010 2:39:00 PM


From: Tim, Jon Markle, Laurie Andrews, jax760,

and Charlie C.



- - - -



From: Tim ,pvttimt@aol.com> (pvttimt at aol.com)



In an attempt to tease out the nuance between

"religion" and "spirituality" ...



I see spirituality or spiritual experience as

something that I can have as an individual without

regard to anyone else. My inspiration may come

from nature, or any of many different sources.



Religion seems to begin when two or more people

agree on their own personal spiritual experiences,

sufficient that they choose to join together

and espouse that particular perspective. Then

they seek out others of similar experience to

join them in fellowship.



The unique aspect of AA is that we join the

fellowship only to find that it is not only

permissible to embrace our own personal version

of spirituality, but that we are urged to

do so -- not something that the typical religion

offers.



Tim



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>

(serenitylodge at mac.com)



On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote:



> Etymologically the words "religious" and

> "spiritual" are interchangeable. Search the various dictionary sites on the

> web and compare the definitions of the two words."



Here's the problem I think.



TODAY, the two words are not necessarily interchangeable. In fact, in most of

society today, they are not one in the same and have widely different meanings,

attributes and outcomes.



Perhaps the most egregious of societal attributes, "religion" as we know it

today especially, is highly political. Whereas spirituality is not.



And we know from experience that these two philosophies, religion and politics,

have no business in an AA meeting. For the most obvious reason: they are both

anti-recovery, anti "fellowship," by their nature.



Although many "religious" folk will probably tell you they are "spiritual," the

same is not true of "spiritual" folks.



Thus the dilemma. And thus the arguments in AA circles.



I see no particular benefit to religious arguments. Because they are ALL an

individual point of view and nothing more. Nothing can be factually proved.



ALSO:



On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote:



> PS - a final tidbit - what percentage of meetings do you think are held in

> church halls at very nominal rental expense (i.e. Religions extending a

> cooperative and helping hand to AA).



This argument would be a great reason never to have AA in a church. Such

suppositions are why we MUST keep our meetings autonomous and anonymous from the

facilities in which they meet.



Perhaps more than any one thing you have said, this alone is the very proof we

must keep religion out of the Rooms.



It seems so obvious to me now, why we must keep this list clean of religious

superstitious pinning. AA is not nor can it ever become religious or governed

by any religious dogma. If this History list becomes an argument for religious

involvement in AA, then it has failed in its watchword.



I don't care to debate or discuss it. I just want us to realize this forum is

not one which should be used to manipulate historical facts in an attempt to

justify religious teachings or interference with organized religion, especially

those with fundamental, evangelical agendas, in AA.



If anything, a factual study of AA should show the reasons and necessity for the

separation of religion from AA.



I want us to be clear about that.



Jon Markle/MA

Retired Therapist & SA Counseling

Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality

HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations

Raleigh, NC

9/9/82



- - - -



From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Also ... "As a society we must never become so vain as to suppose that we are

authors and inventors of a new religion. We will humbly reflect that every one

of AA's principles has been borrowed from ancient sources." (AA Comes of Age,

page 231 - quoted in As Bill Sees It, page 223).



- - - -



From: "jax760" <jax760@yahoo.com>

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



For an alternative perspective to the "Tablemate" see the Akron Pamphlet

"Spiritual Milestones in AA" c. early 1940s.



"FEW, IF ANY, men or women have completely fulfilled the aims of

Alcoholics Anonymous without at least some grasp of the spiritual, or to use

another term in it's broadest sense, religion. True, there have been some who

have managed to keep sober simply by mechanical action. But a preponderance of

evidence points out that until one has some spiritual conviction, and the more

the better, he takes no joy in his sobriety. Too often we hear an AA remark, "I

think this is a wonderful program, but I can't understand the spiritual angle."

To them the religion otherwise know as Alcoholics Anonymous is something

complex, abstract and awesome. They seem to have the impression that religion,

the spiritual life, is something to be enjoyed only by saints the clergy, and

perhaps an occasional highly privileged layman. They cannot conceive that it can

be for the reformed sinner as well. And yet the truth is, the spiritual AA is

there for all of

us to enjoy.



But, asks the alcoholic, where can I find a simple, step-by-step religious

guide? The Ten Commandments give us a set of Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt Nots;

the Twelve Steps of AA give us a program of dynamic action; but what about a

spiritual guide?



Of course the answer is that by following the Ten Commandments and Twelve Steps

to the letter we automatically lead a spiritual life, whether or not we

recognize it."



This pamphlet is still sold at Akron Intergroup.



Attempts to differentiate (by us laymen i.e. AA members) such complex,

multi-dimensional contructs as spirituality and religion or religiousness are

extremely difficult and any attempt at a single or narrow definition of either,

which historically have been and are still today quite broadly defined in

dictionaries,(and by sociologists, pyschologists and everyone else outside 12

step recovery) reflects a limited perspective or perhaps an agenda (spirituality

is good and religion is bad). The majority of people in the USA do not

differentiate between these two wonderful, dynamic and empowering constructs.

Note 1



"In critically judging of the value of religious phenomena, it is very important

to insist on the distinction between religion as an individual personal

function, and religion as an institutional, corporate, or tribal product."

William James - VRE



James called it "religion as an individual personal function", the Oxford Group

called it "personal religion", we in AA call it "spirituality". In each instance

we are talking about the same thing.........a personal religious experience, or

if you prefer a spiritual experience. As "a way of life" they are indeed one in

the same.



Those interested may wish to read Bill's "Three Talks to The Medical Societies"

(P-6) and see how Bill described the AA program of recovery to educated men of

medicine and science.



Bill used the words spiritual and religious interchangeably in most of his

writings (see p.569 AA) and never once have I read anything from Bill that said

"AA is Spiritual not Religious" (he was way too smart to engage in such

controvery) in fact I have found dozens of citeable instances of Bill describing

"the work" as "religious" as well as dozens of instances of him describing the

program or its actions as "spiritual." It should be no surprise to anyone that

drunks have always had trouble with anything "religious" including the word or

idea. Thus AA adpated the word and idea "spiritual" and

"spirituality" to suit the needs of the society.



"The basic principles of A.A., as they are known today, were borrowed mainly

from the fields of religion and medicine, though some ideas upon which success

finally depended were the result of noting the behaviors and needs of the

Fellowship itself." – p. 16 12&12



Whether or not AA is spiritual, religious, both or neither is best left to the

outside experts. Just because AA or its members, some or all, majority or

minority, say ...xyz.... doesn't make it so.



Has anyone seen or would like to comment on the many (I believe eight) major

legal cases involving the establishment clause that have been tried in the last

twenty five years in either state supreme or federal circuit appeals courts? How

does the legal system in the USA define AA?



IN THE MATTER OF DAVID GRIFFIN, APPELLANT, v.

THOMAS A. COUGHLIN III, AS COMMISSIONER OF THE

NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONAL

SERVICES, ET AL. RESPONDENTS. 1996 N.Y. Int. 137.

June 11, 1996. No. 73 [1996 NY Int. 137].

Decided June 11, 1996



"On this appeal we hold that, under the Establishment Clause of the United

States Constitution's First Amendment, an atheist or agnostic inmate may not be

deprived of eligibility for expanded family visitation privileges for refusing

to participate in the sole alcohol and drug addiction program at his State

correctional facility when the program necessarily entails mandatory attendance

at and participation in a curriculum which adopts in major part the

religious-oriented practices and precepts of Alcoholics Anonymous (hereinafter

A.A.).



In December of 1996, the U. S. Supreme Court turned down, without comment, New

York's appeal to have the Griffin v Coughlin ruling overturned.



In several of these landmark cases attempts to differentiate

"spiritual" from "religious" were rejected by the courts.



With that I have ceased fighting anyone or anything and have resigned from the

debating society.



BTW, for the record, I have no problem with either religion or spirituality.

Identify and don't compare?



God Bless



Note 1

Conceptualizing Religion and Spirituality: Points of Commonality, Points of

Departure Peter C. Hill, Kenneth I. Pargament, Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Michael E.

McCullough, James P. Swyers, David B. Larson & Brian J. Zinnbauer

Journal for the Theory of Social Behavior 30:1 0021-8308



- - - -



From: Charlie C <route20guy@yahoo.com>

(route20guy at yahoo.com)



I think it would be quite interesting to pursue this discussion in terms of

what spiritual and religious notions were in the the 1930s, and what they are

today. My impression from their biographies is that while both Dr. Bob and Bill

were rather eclectic browsers in spiritual matters, e.g. their interest in Ouija

boards, they were both also both respectful of and knowledgeable about the

primary organized religion of their day, Christianity..



Things are different today of course, there are many spiritual and religious

"options" as it were that were not so present in the 1930s. I would like to see

more of that same respect, and lack of prejudice (see p49 in the Big Book for

example) in AA today that Bill and Bob had. In my 21 years of sobriety I have

heard an unpleasant amount of careless, ignorant and disrespectful talk against

"organized religion."



If nothing else it's unseemly considering that the vast majority of our

meetings take place in buildings that we have free access to for extraordinarily

nominal "rents," all due to the charitable spiritual impulse of those religious

people that many in AA seem to feel so superior towards.



Glib talk of being "spiritual" not "religious" is easy to indulge in, but I

haven't noticed it translating into buildings being constructed and maintained

so that the spiritual impulse can be housed, and groups of drunks can have a

room to meet in.


0 -1 0 0
6208 longjohnunderwear
Sobriety Under the Sun Sobriety Under the Sun 1/2/2010 11:57:00 PM


Sobriety Under the Sun is an English-speaking

AA convention held each winter in Puerto Vallarta

in Mexico .. coming up at the end of January.



For more info see:



http://www.aapvconvention.com/



http://www.rexark.com/collections/sobriety-under-the-sun


0 -1 0 0
6209 Geoff
Information on Jack Alexander''s life Information on Jack Alexander''s life 1/4/2010 9:59:00 PM


Apologies if this has been covered, but I can't

find it anywhere.



Do we know anything about the life of Jack

Alexander before his involvement with AA?



Does anyone have any resources or anything that

might help me find some background information

on his bio etc?



many thanks

Geoff


0 -1 0 0
6210 diazeztone
List of all Hazelden books on alcoholism List of all Hazelden books on alcoholism 1/5/2010 1:06:00 AM


Hazelden books on alcoholism:



Has anyone ever published, studied, talked about,

or written about every book Hazelden has ever

published (including those out of print)?



I.e., a complete bibliography of Hazelden books

on alcoholism and recovery.



LD Pierce 06 15 1995



Hope all had merry christmas and happy new year!

Another Sober one for me!!

www.aabibliography.com



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator:



Or perhaps the more modest project of assembling

a complete list of all the books which Hazelden

published on the history of A.A., back when they

were still publishing books on A.A. history.


0 -1 0 0
6211 Charlie C
life of jack alexander life of jack alexander 1/7/2010 11:47:00 AM


Re Jack Alexander, I see his obit in the NY Times for 9/20/75. It is a brief

piece, mentioning that he was from St. Louis, had worked for the St. Louis Star

and Post-Dispatch before joining the Daily News in NYC in 1930. He then moved to

the New Yorker, and then the Saturday Evening Post, from which he retired as a

senior editor in 1964. He died 9/19/75 in St. Louis, and was survived by his

widow.



Charlie C.

IM = route20guy


0 -1 0 0
6212 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Information on Jack Alexander''s life Information on Jack Alexander''s life 1/6/2010 12:24:00 PM


Jack Alexander retired to Florida and died there.

There are two different dates given for his death

date: September 19 1975 and September 17 1975.



Someone who knows how to use the obits may be

able to find more from his obit.


0 -1 0 0
6213 Ernest Kurtz
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/7/2010 9:56:00 PM


According to one common story, Alexander had

just finished a piece "exposing" the mob -- in

Philadelphia? Anyway, according to this story,

when he first heard of AA he thought that it,

too, had to be some kind of "racket," so he set

out to expose it.



I'll appreciate verification of this story if

anyone can come up with it, or its disproof.



ernie kurtz


0 -1 0 0
6214 schaberg43
Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/11/2010 11:00:00 AM


In our area, there is a "rule" that you must

have at least ninety days (or even six months)

of sobriety before you can "run" a meeting.

In addition, several Step groups require a

year (or even two) before someone is given

"the chair."



I have been asked if there is any foundation

for this "rule" in AA's early history.



I don't know of any concrete basis for this

in the 1930s, but perhaps someone on this list

would have some knowledge of such an early

'tradition' or rule.



I also suspect that such a 'rule' might well

have been propagated in the 'AA Guideline'

binders (or whatever they were called) that

I know were sent out by GSO during the 1940s.



Can anyone help me with some more detailed

background for this "rule"?



Best,



Old Bill


0 -1 0 0
6215 Stockholm Fellowship
Re: minority opinion question minority opinion question 1/7/2010 8:10:00 AM


From Jay G. in Stockholm, Bob McK., and

Dave "inkman83"



- - - -



From: Jay G. (Stockholm)

<stockholmfellowship@gmail.com>

(stockholmfellowship at gmail.com)



In regard to the Minority opinion question, yes there are times where the

majority is swayed by a minority opinion.



I remember one time at the District level in Los Angeles there was an idea I had

for a PI event. Initially everyone really liked the idea and the first vote was

nearly unanimous in favor. During the minority opinion a concern was raised

about cost and some who voted for the idea indicated they wanted to re-vote. In

the re-vote the idea failed overwhelmingly, with encouragement to come back with

more details about the cost at a future meeting.



And at the Regional level in Europe there have been times when the 2/3's

threshold for passing something was met, but after the minority opinion a

re-vote was requested and the motion fell just a few votes under the threshold.



So sometimes the minority opinion brings up something that causes a lot of

people to rethink their vote, other times just a few people. But it does sway.

In fact, in my experience, I have only seen the minority opinion to have much of

an effect at the District, Region or Area levels. In my experience, in the

group's conscience at the homegroup level, there tends to be such a uniformity

that the minority opinion rarely causes a budge.



Regarding is you must always ask for the minority opinion, that varies. Some do

it every time, some don't if the motion didn't pass in the first place.



In fellowship,

Jay G.

Stockholm, Sweden



- - - -



From: "Bob McK." <bobnotgod2@att.net>

(bobnotgod2 at att.net)



The Conference Archives Committee, a secondary committee, came into being in

1998 through just such a process. It was just shy of the required 2/3 vote

for approval. Impassioned pleas by the non-prevailing side led to a

reconsideration. Most notable in the restored debate was the statement by

David E. from Hawaii who said, "I've been swaying back and forth like a palm

tree on this issue, but I think we ought to give it a chance." The vote was

indeed swayed to over a 2/3 majority and the committee was born.



When chairing any AA or AA-related debate I have always asked for minority

opinion. If nothing else, it offers the losing side an opportunity to vent

their "sour grapes." At one time in the 1998 (or possible '97) Conference

the chair allowed minority opinion after an already-reconsidered vote,

knowing full well that a second motion to reconsider is not allowed.



Furthermore full debate on the original motion may not have occurred because

of a motion calling the question or because some did not express important

issues feeling that their side was certain to prevail without their help.



- - - -



From: "inkman83" <tumbles83@msn.com> (tumbles83 at msn.com)



I was active in The North Florida Area from approximately 1994-2006 and at least

three separate times the minority opinion swayed the majority and the vote was

overturned. After minority opinion is heard the Chair (I believe) asked if

there is someone who voted in the majority who would like to ask for a re-vote,

if that motion is seconded then a vote is taken to determiine if a re-vote will

take place, if that passes then the secretary re-reads the motion and a new vote

is taken (if I recall correctly there is no discussion on a re-vote). I believe

this information can be found by e-mailing the Secretary or the Archivist from

aanorthflorida.org



Hope this helps



Dave



- - - -



The two original messages were from:

"cwojohnwalter" <cwojohnwalter@yahoo.com>

(cwojohnwalter at yahoo.com)

Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010



Is there a recorded precedence in which the

minority opinion was heard and then swayed the

majority opinion enough to change or table the

vote?



I realize that this might happen at the individual

group level often but I am looking for some

documentation of it happening at the Regional or

Higher Level.



I am giving a presentation about the minority

opinion and Concept V and would like to geek it

out as much as possible.



Love and Service - John



And "Is it necessary to ask the floor for

any minority opinion?"



After an issue is debated and all sides of

have been heard and after the vote is taken

and there is a simple or 2/3 majority (whichever

is required) than is it necessary to ask the

floor for the minority to state its opinion if

it so wishes?



Love and Service - John


0 -1 0 0
6216 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/11/2010 1:59:00 PM


Boss Hague: King Hanky-Panky of Jersey

By Jack Alexander

Originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post

on October 26, 1940

Edited by GET NJ, COPYRIGHT 2002



http://www.cityofjerseycity.org/hague/kinghankypanky/index.shtml



The Honorable Frank Hague, the perpetual mayor of Jersey City, is perhaps

the most eminent mugg in the United States. Hague was a mugg when he was

expelled from the sixth grade at thirteen as a truant and dullard, and be was

a mugg when he started learning politics the bare-knuckles way in the tough

Horseshoe district of Jersey City in the 1890's. He was still a mugg when

he was elected mayor of that dreary human hive in 1917, in which capacity

he has held the center of the stage ever since with the grim determination

of a bad violinist. Hague will probably he known to history as a strong

character who, despite all temptations to belong to other classifications,

loyally remained a mugg to the end. This is a remarkable achievement when you

analyze it, for Hanky-Panky, as his admirers sometimes call him, has walked

with the great and good, and their only noticeable effect on him has been

to give him a taste for expensive haberdashery. At heart and in practice, he

is a strong-arm man today, tricked out by a clever tailor to look like a

statesman.

As a wood carver fashions puppets, Hague has created governors, United

States senators, and judges of high and low degree. He has been backslapped

cordially by the President and by men who wanted to be President. He has

bossed the state of New Jersey almost as long as he has ruled Jersey City. He

has mingled intimately with leaders of medicine and the clergy and, in a

famous civil-liberties case, was firmly kneaded and processed by the august

Supreme Court of the United States. He is listed in Who's Who in America and,

as vice-chairman of the Democratic National Committee, he is a leader in

the Party of Humanity.

From time to time, in his twenty-three years as mayor, he has enjoyed the

investigative attentions of committees sent by the United States Senate and

the New Jersey legislature and of agents of the Justice and Treasury

departments. He has been a frequent guest at the baronial Duke Farms in

Somerville, New Jersey, and he has dandled a teacup in the parlor of Mrs E. T.

Stotesbury, the widow of a famous Morgan partner. Yet, in spite of all these

softening influences, he persists in saying, "I have went," and in using

singular subjects with plural verbs, and vice versa. In conversation he bellows

oracularly and jabs a long finger into his listener's clavicle to

emphasize his points, most of which boil down to his favorite argumentative

phrase,

"You know I'm right about that!" His language, when he is aroused, is

that of the gin mill. He rules his city by the nightstick and the state by

crass political barter. He is loud and vulgar and given to public displays of

phony piety during which his enemies are dismissed as "Red," or worse.

At sixty-four, he is still erect and muscular, and he is not above

physically assaulting a quailing civil employee whom he has called on the

carpet.

None dares to hit back, for fear of being harassed by Hague's police or

being held up to public disgrace in some devious way.

A legislative committee once determined that during a seven-year period

when Hague's salary, admittedly his only source of income, totaled $56,000,

he

purchased real estate and other property for a total outlay of nearly

$400,000. This was done through dummies, and payment was made in cash. Hague

has always shied from bank accounts. Although his salary as mayor is only

$8000, has never exceeded $8500 and has been as low as $6520, Hague lives like

a millionaire. He keeps a fourteen-room duplex apartment in Jersey City

and a suite in a plushy Manhattan hotel. He owns a palatial summer home in

Deal, New Jersey, for which he paid $125,120 - in cash - and he gambles

regularly on the horse races. Before the present war began he went to Europe

every year, traveling in the royal suites of the best liners. Now he spends

more time in Florida and at Saratoga Springs, where he flashes a bank roll,

held together by a wide rubber hand, which always contains a few $1000

notes, a denomination of which Hague is childishly fond. Hague's public

squanderings have brought Jersey City's municipal finances to a dangerous

pass.

Wholly dominated by Hague, Jersey City is the worst mess of unpunished civic

corruption in the forty-eight states.



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator: here is a chronological

list of Jack Alexander's articles from



http://www.philsp.com/homeville/FMI/d19.htm#A956



ALEXANDER, JACK (stories)

The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3 1938

Missouri Dark Mule (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8 1938; (about Sen.

Bennett Clark).

The Last Shall Be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939; (about

Joseph Pulitzer).

He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11, Mar 18 1939; (about

William Bullitt).

Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939

Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22 1939; (about

Harold Ickes).

Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939; (about Enoch

Johnson).

All Father’s Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18 1939;

(about Father Divine).

Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939

Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940

Golden Boy; The Story of Jimmy Cromwell (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 23

1940

King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940

“Just Call Mr. C.R.” (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941

Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941

Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941

Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941

The Duke of Chicago (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 19 1941

The World’s Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26 1941

Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941

Everybody’s Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A great library

can house romance as well as books.

Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943

Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943

The Next Offensive in Lisbon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 6 1943

Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944

They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 16 1944

Mugwump Senator (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 2 1946

Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946

The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Apr 12 1947

The Senate’s Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post

Aug 9 1947

The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948; about

Chic Young.

What Does Walter Reuther Want? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 21 1948

Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30 1949

The Drunkard’s Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950; Alcoholics

Anonymous.

The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950

What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24 1951

They “Doctor” One Another (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 6 1952

The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31, Nov 7

1953

The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 11, Dec 18

1954

Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 2 1957

The Bank That Has No Secrets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 30 1957

Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9 1958

The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7 1959

What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10 1960

Dreamers on the Payroll (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 19 1960

Sunny But Somber Island (Corsica) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 28 1962



- - - -



Message #6213 from Ernest Kurtz

<kurtzern@umich.edu>

(kurtzern at umich.edu)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6213



According to one common story, Alexander had

just finished a piece "exposing" the mob -- in

Philadelphia? Anyway, according to this story,

when he first heard of AA he thought that it,

too, had to be some kind of "racket," so he set

out to expose it.



I'll appreciate verification of this story if

anyone can come up with it, or its disproof.



ernie kurtz


0 -1 0 0
6217 Ernest Kurtz
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/11/2010 8:58:00 PM


Bailey, Glenn -- you guys are really marvelous. Thank you very much.

Now I wonder whether the whole story of AA and Jack Alexander has been

collected and published anywhere? I recall some Akron mentions of

Alexander in the early correspondence. Take it away, you young sprites!



Thanks again.



ernie kurtz





On Jan 11, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Baileygc23@aol.com wrote:



> Boss Hague: King Hanky-Panky of Jersey

> By Jack Alexander

> Originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post

> on October 26, 1940

> Edited by GET NJ, COPYRIGHT 2002

>

> http://www.cityofjerseycity.org/hague/kinghankypanky/index.shtml

>

>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6218 Charles Knapp
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/12/2010 4:09:00 PM


From brucec55 and Charles Knapp



- - - -



From: Bruce <brucec55@sbcglobal.net> (

brucec55 at sbcglobal.net)



The Feb./March 2008 issue of Box 459 has a two

page article on A.A. and Jack Alexander. I do

not know who wrote it but the staff at GSO may

know.



Bruce







COPY OF THE ARTICLE ON JACK ALEXANDER:



"Jack Alexander Gave A.A. Its First Big Boost"

Box 4-5-9, February/March 2008



As the 1941 year began, Alcoholics Anonymous had about

2,000 members, many in large cities but also some in

small towns and other isolated places. A 1939 national

magazine article had attracted several hundred new

members, and newspaper articles in Cleveland and a few

other places had brought positive results. But for most of

North America, A.A. was still unknown and alcoholics

were dying without knowing that a new way of recovery

had been discovered and was working.



All of that, however, was about to change dramatically.

In less than a year, A.A. would suddenly triple its membership

and be well on the way to becoming a national

institution.



The man who played a key role in this lightning change

was Jack Alexander, a 38-year-old writer for The Saturday

Evening Post, which, with more than 3 million

circulation, was the leading family magazine in the

United States. The article he wrote about A.A. for the March 1,

1941 edition of the magazine -- simply titled "Alcoholics

Anonymous " -- brought in 7,000 inquiries and became

the high point of his illustrious career. The article apparently led

other publications to offer similar reports of the

Fellowship's work, launching A.A. on a publicity roll that

lasted for years.



Alexander's article is still circulating today as a pamphlet

issued by A.A. World Services, with the title "The Jack

Alexander Article about A.A." Though it focuses on the

A.A. of 1941, it still provides important information about

alcoholism, how the Fellowship started, and what was

working so well for those whom we would now call A.A.

pioneers. The article has also been praised as an excellent

example of good organization and writing that could be a

model for journalism students. (The late Maurice Z., an

A.A. member and also a highly successful magazine writer

and biographer, told an A.A. session at the 1985

International Convention in Montreal that he had been

impressed by the article back in 1941, long before he felt

his own need to embrace the program it described!)



How did this fortunate publicity come about? What

inspired it and who was responsible for bringing the idea

to the attention of the Post's editors and nursing the story

through to acceptance and completion?



The account of A.A.'s famous appearance in The

Saturday Evening Post is the kind of story that gives some

A.A. members goose bumps, because they see it as the

sure work of Higher Power. Others would just call it a

chain of coincidences that worked out favorably for the

Fellowship. Whatever the case, its publication in 1941 was

a bombshell breakthrough for A.A. at a critical time.



The process actually started in February 1940, when

Jim B., one of the A.A. pioneers in New York City, moved

to Philadelphia, the headquarters city of The Saturday

Evening Post. Jim started an A.A. group in the city and,

through a chance meeting at a bookstore, attracted the

interest of Dr. A. Wiese Hammer, who with colleague Dr.

C. Dudley Saul, became an enthusiastic A.A. advocate. Dr.

Hammer just happened to be a close friend of Curtis Bok,

owner of The Saturday Evening Post. After hearing Dr.

Hammer's strong endorsement of A.A., Bok passed along

to his editors a suggestion that they consider an article

about the Fellowship. The suggestion landed on the desk

of Jack Alexander, one of the Post's star reporters.



Alexander was a seasoned writer who (according to

Bill W.) had just covered some rackets in New Jersey. (This

gave rise to an untrue belief that he thought A.A. might

also be a racket.) Born in St. Louis, he had worked for

newspapers and The New Yorker before joining the Post.

Alexander deserves much credit for probing deeply into a

struggling society that scarcely impressed him as he started

his research. Though assigned to do the story by his

superiors, he could have made a superficial review of A.A.

activity in New York City and then abandoned the project

as "not having much merit." Indeed, he would write four

years later that he was highly skeptical following his first

contact with four members of A.A. who called at his

apartment one afternoon. "They spun yarns about their

horrendous drinking misadventures," he wrote. "Their

stories sounded spurious, and after the visitors had left, I

had a strong suspicion that my leg was being pulled. They

had behaved like a bunch of actors sent out by some

Broadway casting agency."



But Alexander was too much the professional to give

up based on one unsatisfactory interview session. The

next morning, he met Bill W. at A.A.'s tiny Vesey Street

general service offices in downtown Manhattan. They hit

it off immediately. Alexander described Bill as "a very disarming

guy and an expert at indoctrinating the stranger

into the psychology, psychiatry, physiology, pharmacology

and folklore of alcoholism. He spent the good part of a

couple of days telling me what it was all about. It was an

interesting experience, but at the end of it my fingers

were still crossed. I knew I had the makings of a readable

report but, unfortunately, I didn't quite believe in it and

told Bill so."



At this point, Alexander could have shelved the assign-

ment for later consideration or dropped it altogether. But Bill

W. was determined not to let that happen. He dropped

everything and persuaded Alexander to investigate A.A.

in other cities, especially Akron and Cleveland. As Bill recalled

later, "Working early and late, [Jack] spent a whole month

with us. Dr. Bob and I and the elders of the early groups at

Akron, New York, Cleveland, Philadelphia, and Chicago

spent uncounted hours with him. When he could feel A.A.

in the very marrow of his bones, he proceeded to write

the piece that rocked drunks and their families all over the

nation."



Alexander recalled that A.A. in those cities had impressed him

mightily. "The real clincher came, though, in St. Louis, which

is my home town," he remembered. "Here I met a number of my

own friends who were A.A.s, and the last remnants of skepticism

vanished. Once rollicking rumpots, they were now

sober. It didn't seem possible, but there it was."



Now a firm believer in A.A., Alexander finished the

article and sent it to Bill and Dr. Bob for review. They

suggested only minor changes, though the correspondence

between Bill and Jack reveals that Bill wanted no mention

of the Oxford Group, a fellowship which had given A.A. its

fundamental principles but after 1936 had begun falling

fast in the public favor. Alexander said his editors felt the

story required some mention of the Oxford Group, but he

minimized it.



Then the Post made a request that could have sunk the

project. The editors wanted photos to illustrate the article

and this, Bill thought, would violate the Society's anonymity.

But when the editors said the article wouldn't be published

without photos, Bill agonized for a moment and

then quickly decided the opportunity was too important to

pass up. Thus one photo in Alexander's article showed Bill

and seven others grouped in the old 24th Street Clubhouse

in Manhattan, though the cutline carries no names. The

lead photo, also unidentified, depicted a drunk using a

towel to study his hand while taking a drink, and a second

photo showed a man on a hospital bed being visited by

three A.A. members. Another photo showed a person

being carried into the hospital on a stretcher.



Published on March 1, 1941, the Alexander piece

brought a response that almost overwhelmed the

resources at the small Vesey Street office. The Post

forwarded to A.A. thousands of letters pouring in from

across North America. Volunteers had to be called

in to answer the letters, while some were sent to A.A.

members and groups in their places of origin. And since

A.A. still had very little literature of its own, the article

served as an information piece for prospective A.A.

members. In Toledo, Ohio, for example, the members

gave a newcomer named Garth M. several dollars and

sent him out to buy up copies around the city (the

price was then five cents per copy). These then became

part of the group's literature for other newcomers.



Nine years later Alexander penned another Post article

about A.A. titled "The Drunkard's Best Friend."

Though lacking the dramatic impact of the earlier story, it

effectively detailed what A.A. had become and promised

for the future -- a promise that has been fulfilled many

times over. By this time, A.A. had 96,000 members and

was rapidly spreading to countries around the world.



Jack Alexander remained a friend of A.A. throughout

his life, and even served as a nonalcoholic (Class A) trustee

on the A.A. General Service Board from 1951 until 1956. He

was also said to have added "the final editorial touch" to

Bill's manuscript for Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,

first published in 1952. Alexander became a senior editor

at the Post, and in a special tribute to him at his retirement

in 1961, the Post cited the 1941 Alcoholics Anonymous

piece as his most famous article for the magazine.



In failing health, Jack Alexander and his wife Anita

retired to Florida, where he died on September 17, 1975.

Bill W. had passed away almost five years earlier, so

there was no special tribute for Jack of the kind Bill had

written for other early friends of A.A. But from the Big

Meeting in the Sky, Bill might have praised Jack as a man

who gave us a "ten strike" and with his words virtually

saved the lives of thousands. Even without Jack's wonderful

article, A.A. would have survived and achieved further

growth. But Jack was there at the right time with the right

message for his times. Without Jack's persistence and

strong belief in A.A., many could have gone to their graves

without knowing that a new way of recovery had been discovered

and was working. Bill W. and the other A.A. pioneers

knew that, and they never lost their gratitude for the

star reporter who at first thought his leg was being pulled.



- - - -



From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>

(cpknapp at yahoo.com)



In the Feb/Mar 2008 Box 459 is an article

about Jack Alexander and it touches on this

story about the Jersey rackets.



Hope this helps

Charles



- - - -



Original message #6216 from <Baileygc23@aol.com>

(Baileygc23 at aol.com)



Boss Hague: King Hanky-Panky of Jersey

By Jack Alexander



Originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post

on October 26, 1940

Edited by GET NJ, COPYRIGHT 2002



http://www.cityofjerseycity.org/hague/kinghankypanky/index.shtml



The Honorable Frank Hague, the perpetual mayor of Jersey City, is perhaps

the most eminent mugg in the United States. Hague was a mugg when he was

expelled from the sixth grade at thirteen as a truant and dullard, and be was

a mugg when he started learning politics the bare-knuckles way in the tough

Horseshoe district of Jersey City in the 1890's. He was still a mugg when

he was elected mayor of that dreary human hive in 1917, in which capacity

he has held the center of the stage ever since with the grim determination

of a bad violinist. Hague will probably he known to history as a strong

character who, despite all temptations to belong to other classifications,

loyally remained a mugg to the end. This is a remarkable achievement when you

analyze it, for Hanky-Panky, as his admirers sometimes call him, has walked

with the great and good, and their only noticeable effect on him has been

to give him a taste for expensive haberdashery. At heart and in practice, he

is a strong-arm man today, tricked out by a clever tailor to look like a

statesman.



As a wood carver fashions puppets, Hague has created governors, United

States senators, and judges of high and low degree. He has been backslapped

cordially by the President and by men who wanted to be President. He has

bossed the state of New Jersey almost as long as he has ruled Jersey City. He

has mingled intimately with leaders of medicine and the clergy and, in a

famous civil-liberties case, was firmly kneaded and processed by the august

Supreme Court of the United States. He is listed in Who's Who in America and,

as vice-chairman of the Democratic National Committee, he is a leader in

the Party of Humanity.



From time to time, in his twenty-three years as mayor, he has enjoyed the

investigative attentions of committees sent by the United States Senate and

the New Jersey legislature and of agents of the Justice and Treasury

departments. He has been a frequent guest at the baronial Duke Farms in

Somerville, New Jersey, and he has dandled a teacup in the parlor of Mrs E. T.

Stotesbury, the widow of a famous Morgan partner. Yet, in spite of all these

softening influences, he persists in saying, "I have went," and in using

singular subjects with plural verbs, and vice versa. In conversation he bellows

oracularly and jabs a long finger into his listener's clavicle to emphasize his

points, most of which boil down to his favorite argumentative phrase,

"You know I'm right about that!" His language, when he is aroused, is

that of the gin mill. He rules his city by the nightstick and the state by

crass political barter. He is loud and vulgar and given to public displays of

phony piety during which his enemies are dismissed as "Red," or worse.



At sixty-four, he is still erect and muscular, and he is not above

physically assaulting a quailing civil employee whom he has called on the

carpet.

None dares to hit back, for fear of being harassed by Hague's police or

being held up to public disgrace in some devious way.



A legislative committee once determined that during a seven-year period

when Hague's salary, admittedly his only source of income, totaled $56,000,

he purchased real estate and other property for a total outlay of nearly

$400,000. This was done through dummies, and payment was made in cash. Hague

has always shied from bank accounts. Although his salary as mayor is only

$8000, has never exceeded $8500 and has been as low as $6520, Hague lives like

a millionaire. He keeps a fourteen-room duplex apartment in Jersey City

and a suite in a plushy Manhattan hotel. He owns a palatial summer home in

Deal, New Jersey, for which he paid $125,120 - in cash - and he gambles

regularly on the horse races. Before the present war began he went to Europe

every year, traveling in the royal suites of the best liners. Now he spends

more time in Florida and at Saratoga Springs, where he flashes a bank roll,

held together by a wide rubber hand, which always contains a few $1000

notes, a denomination of which Hague is childishly fond. Hague's public

squanderings have brought Jersey City's municipal finances to a dangerous

pass.



Wholly dominated by Hague, Jersey City is the worst mess of unpunished civic

corruption in the forty-eight states.


0 -1 0 0
6219 Stockholm Fellowship
EURYPAA 2010 seeks speaker and participants EURYPAA 2010 seeks speaker and participants 1/12/2010 6:03:00 AM


The 1st Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A.

Convention will be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden,

July 23-25, 2010.



More information at http://www.EURYPAA.org/2010



Spread the word, WE NEED ONE MORE SPEAKER,

AND SOME PANELISTS.



- - - -



The All-Europe Young People in AA Conference Committee is looking for a main

speaker for Saturday night - someone with an obvious connection to Europe, came

to AA age 30 or younger and now has 10+ years continuous sobriety, and a woman

is preferred for diversity (Friday night’s main speaker, Craig F., is male).

Anyone interested, or with a referral, please send an mp3 recording or online

link to info@eurypaa.org



Panel speakers on a variety of topics will also be needed during the conference.

AAs from all over the world, and all lengths of sobriety, if you are interested,

email info@eurypaa.org and tell us a bit about yourself.



EURYPAA does not pay for any speaker travel or accommodations in order to keep

conference costs low. We ask everyone to think of it as an international 12-step

call on Young People in AA.



The EURYPAA meetings will be recorded. The recordings are for our EURYPAA

archives and people would be able to listen to them online for free; we are not

going into the business of selling speaker tapes. It is our hope that young

people throughout Europe will be able to hear the experience, strength and hope

of the EURYPAA speakers and seek out AA in their area, or contact us via our

website to be connected to AA near them.



Hope to see you at EURYPAA 2010!



http://www.EURYPAA.org/2010


0 -1 0 0
6220 tomper87
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/14/2010 6:38:00 PM


Excerpts from article by Jack Alexander in the

May 1945 Grapevine:



The History of How The Article Came To Be



Jack Alexander of SatEvePost Fame Thought A.A.s Were Pulling His Leg

AA Grapevine, May, 1945

by Jack Alexander

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania



"It began when the Post asked me to look into A.A. as a possible article

subject. All I knew of alcoholism at the time was that, like most other

non-alcoholics, I had had my hand bitten (and my nose punched) on

numerous occasions by alcoholic pals to whom I had extended a

hand--unwisely, it always seemed afterward. Anyway, I had an

understandable skepticism about the whole business."



"My first contact with actual A.A.s came when a group of four of them

called at my apartment one afternoon. This session was pleasant, but it

didn't help my skepticism any. Each one introduced himself as an

alcoholic who had gone "dry," as the official expression has it. They

were good-looking and well-dressed and, as we sat around drinking

Coca-Cola (which was all they would take), they spun yarns about their

horrendous drinking misadventures. The stories sounded spurious, and

after the visitors had left, I had a strong suspicion that my leg was

being pulled. They had behaved like a bunch of actors sent out by some

Broadway casting agency."


0 -1 0 0
6221 jenny andrews
Re: Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA 1/11/2010 12:17:00 PM


"In one of these (eastern cities) there is

a well-known hospital for the treatment of

alcoholic and drug addiction. ... We are

greatly indebted to the doctor in attendance

there (presumably Towns hospital and Dr.

Silkworth) ... Every few days this doctor

suggests our (AA) approach to one of his

patients.



Understanding our work, he can do this with

an eye to selecting those who are willing and

able to recover on a spiritual basis."



And, by definition, rejecting other patients

whom he believed would not so benefit.



So, as at Akron with Dr Bob's and Sr Ignatia's

screening of patients, success rates were

distorted by already discounting those they

rejected -- even though these other candidates

might have had a desire to stop drinking.



Laurie A.


0 -1 0 0
6222 bbthumpthump
New England Transcendentalism New England Transcendentalism 1/10/2010 4:14:00 PM


Immanuel Kant and the Eighteenth Century

Enlightenment formed the basis for the

nineteenth-century intellectual movement which

we call New England Transcendentalism: Ralph

Waldo Emerson (1803-1882), Henry David Thoreau

(1817-1862), etc.



William James (1842-1910), although not

considered a Transcendentalist, was nevertheless

part of that same New England intellectual

world. He was a student at Harvard University

in Cambridge, Massachusetts, from 1861-1869,

and taught there from 1873-1907. Ralph Waldo

Emerson was his godfather.



Bill Wilson was born and raised in New England;

he read and was influenced by William James. I

can't help but speculate that he was also

influenced by Emerson, Thoreau and other

Transcendentalists in and around New England.


0 -1 0 0
6223 Glenn Chesnut
Re: New England Transcendentalism New England Transcendentalism 1/16/2010 7:18:00 PM


The Transcendentalists were in part rebels

against the doctrines of the Unitarian Church

which dominated Harvard Divinity School at that

time.



Richmond Walker, the second most-published AA

author ("Twenty-Four Hours a Day") was also

brought up within that same New England world.

Students began reading Transcendentalist-

influenced poetry and so on as early as high

school.



Rich did his college degree at Williams College

in Williamstown, Massachusetts, one of the more

distinguished New England universities, where

the faculty were strongly influenced by

Transcendentalist ideas, and by the kind of

nineteenth-century German idealist philosophy

that was produced under the influence of Immanuel

Kant. The students at Williams College were

strongly encouraged to learn German, and many

of the faculty there had studied at German

universities.



http://hindsfoot.org/rwfla1.html



Rich's father was one of the leaders within the

extreme atheistic wing of the Unitarian Church,

wrote a book defending secular humanism, and

was one of the signatories of the original

Humanist Manifesto.



See Message 4715, "New Information on Richmond Walker"

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4715



It is probably not unfair to see Twenty-Four

Hours a Day as Rich's rebellion against his

father, a rejection of his father's atheism

in which Rich turned to a kind of belief in

God that was much more like Ralph Waldo Emerson's

Over-Soul:



Emerson referred to his Higher Power as "that

great nature in which we rest, as the earth

lies in the soft arms of the atmosphere; that

Unity, that Over-soul, within which every man's

particular being is contained and made one with

all other; that common heart" which is the

shared feeling of the entire universe.



Emerson was much influenced by Hinduism and the

thought of India (as were many other members of

the Transcendentalist movement -- they seem to

have known much less about Buddhism).



Emerson's concept of the Over-Soul is very

similar to the Hindu teaching of Advaita Vedanta.

The Sanskrit term Param-atman or "Supreme Soul"

-- which seems to be very closely similar to

Emerson's Over-Soul -- also appears in Hindu

literature in the study of the Vedas. My spirit

is a spark of the divine, and is one with all

other human spirits, and one with the Spirit

of the Universe.



See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-soul



The God whom Bill Wilson rediscovered at Ebby's

prompting in the story he relates in the Big

Book was Emerson's Over-Soul -- our intuitive

awareness of the divine and infinite while

gazing at the beauties and marvels of nature

-- NOT the Jesus of the frontier revivalists

or the new Bible-thumping Protestant Fundamentalist

movement which had arisen at the beginning of

the twentieth century.



(The Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 was one of the

first attempts by the new Fundamentalist movement

to flex its muscles and try to drive all other

forms of Protestantism out of existence. The

Fundamentalists mounted unrelenting attacks

against both the New England Transcendentalists

and the New England Unitarians, against the

Southern Methodist liberal Christians who

published the Upper Room, against liberal

Presbyterians and American Baptists like Harry

Emerson Fosdick (one of AA's early praisers

and defenders), against New Thought preachers

like Emmet Fox, against existentialist and

neo-orthodox theologians like Reinhold Niebuhr,

etc.)



See the opening pages of the Big Book -- this

is closer to Emerson's Over-Soul than anything

else in American religious history:



p. 1 -- Winchester Cathedral,



p. 10 -- Bill's grandfather's God whom he

sensed while looking at the grandeur of the

starry heavens above, and



p. 12 -- Bill's conversion experience, when the

scales fell from his eyes (see the story of

the Apostle Paul's conversion in Acts 9:18 in

the New Testament), when Bill quit worrying

about religious doctrines, and trying to figure

out who Jesus was, and all that sort of thing,

and just let himself immediate intuit the

presence of the divine in all the things of

the world around him.



And conversely, when you turn instead to

"religion" in the sense of formal religious

doctrines, hundreds of religious rules,

choosing the "correct" holy book and then

literally following every one of its

complicated rules, you may in fact never get

sober at all, and will at best gain a kind

of white-knuckled dryness which is filled

with resentment, continual quarreling and

attacks on other people, and an absence of

any truly deep serenity.



The same thing happens too when you forget

Rule 62, and try to turn AA into an uptight

collection of hundreds of unbreakable rules,

whether based on narrow logic-chopping

interpretations of the Traditions, or

sorting through thousands of Conference

Advisories, or whatever else the source

of all your rules is -- this is legalism,

the attempt to win salvation by works of

the law.



http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html



Imagine how Henry David Thoreau would react to

some of the excessive legalists whom we

sometimes encounter in modern AA! He would

walk out of the meeting, go outside of town

and build a little hut there in an especially

beautiful spot, plant a little garden, and

start holding his own AA meetings there, a

meeting held for those, like him, who really

wanted to come in contact with the God of Bill

Wilson and Bill Wilson's grandfather.



So yes, a study of the nineteenth-century

New England Transcendentalists is extremely

important to understanding Bill Wilson's New

England background. If you went to high school,

let alone university, in late nineteenth-

century and early twentieth-century New England,

you couldn't escape the influence of Emerson

and Thoreau and the rest.


0 -1 0 0
6224 Henry Cox
Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan 1/6/2010 3:50:00 PM


Chauncey Costello got sober in the early

forty's, and died I believe in 2003 or 2004.

He lived in Pontiac, Michigan.



I believe he was the oldest member still

attending meetings up until 2002.



Any info people have about him in local A.A.

Archives or elsewhere would be helpful.


0 -1 0 0
6225 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/11/2010 3:05:00 PM


From Bailey, James Blair, Jon Markle, Jay Pees,

and Ben Humphreys



- - - -



From: <Baileygc23@aol.com> (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



A.A. Pamphlet: "The A.A. Group ... Where It All Begins"



http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-16_theaagroup.pdf



It says in this pamphlet that it is usually six months. But each group can

do as it damn well please and usually does. Groups with a lot of old timers

might have people with thirty or more years sober as leaders and in the

same area people with very little sobriety may be leading or holding offices.

Reading the pamphlet may help one to understand.



- - - -



From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



Old Bill wrote

> In our area, there is a "rule" that you must

> have at least ninety days (or even six months)

> of sobriety before you can "run" a meeting.

> In addition, several Step groups require a

> year (or even two) before someone is given

> "the chair."



In the early years people were not considered members until they had 90

days. Early membership surveys excluded the people with less than 90 days.



Jim



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>

(serenitylodge at mac.com)



My home group also had such guidelines. For which, having visited less

structured groups, I am forever grateful. We also added stipulations that the

member had to be a home group member, be sponsored by a home group member and

before leading a step study, have had experience working that step with the

recommendation of their sponsor.



Of course, there were plenty of other "servant" or 12th step duties that one

could be involved in early on, that make much more sense for a newcomer than

leading a meeting. Such as helping to set up, make coffee, ash trays (back in

the day), mopping up . . . etc.



My understanding is that such guidelines are independent of AA as a whole, each

group being autonomous in these matters.



- - - -



From: Jay Pees <racewayjay@gmail.com>

(racewayjay at gmail.com)



In my home group we leave it up to the member's sponsor and prefer that the

sponsor be with the sponsee for his first couple times chairing. Some

groups use six months and some do it the same as my home group. "Each group

should remain autonomous."



- - - -



From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>

(blhump272 at sctv.coop)



Read the pamphlet "The AA Group." This is a good guideline for such

questions. It is up to the group to decide guidelines. There really

are no "rules" per se.



Ben H.


0 -1 0 0
6226 BobR
Re: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan 1/16/2010 8:44:00 PM


Chauncey was one of the speakers at the

-- believe it or not -- young people's panel

at the 2005 International convention. I think

one of the young people was 16 with 4 years

sobriety and he had something like 61.


0 -1 0 0
6227 ricktompkins
Re: Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA 1/16/2010 6:22:00 PM


Thanks Laurie,



Knickerbocker Hospital in NYC hired Dr. Silkworth around 1940 and your

un-sourced quote could very well be describing the newly-formed Alcoholic

Ward of that hospital.



Someone else here at 'aahistorylovers' has more details that can come from

Dale Mitchell's biography of him (I have it somewhere but can't find it

right now to give you more info).



Knickerbocker cost much less than Towns' rates, and Dr. Silkworth effected a

partnership with the AAs of NYC for their nonstop visits there.



On a lighter note, in case you've ever heard of a place named "Dusty's

Tavern" it refers to the name of the ward's Day Room.



And in Akron, St. Thomas Hospital established an alcohol treatment ward

under Dr. Bob's direction with very much the same arrangements as

Knickerbocker (but with the added blessing of Sister Ignatia's efforts). I

don't know how Akron City Hospital handled drunks after the first few years

of our 'AA Method' post-1939.



Lower costs, higher patients' responsibility (and commitment) for their own

recovery, and substantial involvement from AA volunteers seemed to be the

successful model that worked well for the many prospects who were placed

into hospitals first before coming to AA in the early days of our

Fellowship.



The Big Book speaks about pre-screening of prospects but in the different,

larger term of 'qualifying' the newcomers on whether or not they were ready

for surrender and recovery.



Silkworth wrote it early on and best, in my opinion, that "those who came to

scoff remained to pray."



Rick, Illinois


0 -1 0 0
6228 Steven Harris
Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking 1/14/2010 2:29:00 PM


Could someone explain in more detail what is

meant on p. 58 of the Big Book when it refers

to people "who suffer from grave emotional and

mental disorders," and when it refers on p. 62

of the Big Book to "self-delusion"?



What kind of personality disorders, delusionary

disorders, and so on, is the Big Book talking

about?


0 -1 0 0
6229 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking 1/16/2010 11:17:00 PM


As I understand it, the question you are asking is, what were they

talking about, in terms of modern psychological terminology, when they

referred on p. 58 of the Big Book to people "who suffer from grave

emotional and mental disorders," and when they referred on p. 62 of

the Big Book to "self-delusion"?



This basic question has been asked a number of times over the years in

the AAHistoryLovers, in various kinds of ways, most recently in

Message #6195



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6195



And so far, nobody has ever written a message back giving any

satisfactory answer.



Let me try to give you a different kind of answer, however. There were

three basic models of alcoholism treatment in the early days, which had

extremely high success rates, and which were positively disposed

towards AA.



1. Sister Ignatia's treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron.

They had a psychiatrist on staff, and when an alcoholic came in who

needed psychiatric help in addition to guidance in working the steps,

they sent that person to the hospital psychiatrist. There is a chapter on

her program in Bill Swegan's book:

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html



2. The Lackland Model developed by A.A. member Bill Swegen and

famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West (later copied by

Captain Joseph Zuska and A.A. member Commander Richard Jewell

for their Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach, with equal

success).

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html

In this treatment method, leadership of the treatment was shared

between a good psychiatrist and an A.A. member with a lot of quality

time in the program. Bill Swegan reports that only a certain percentage

of the alcoholics whom they treated actually had severe psychiatric

problems, and that usually the only people who could actually profit

from psychiatric help were those who were a little better educated and

more aware of their own emotions. If the alcoholic's psychiatric

problems were crippling and could not be treated well enough to

restore that person to active duty in the Air Force, the person was

denied treatment for his alcoholism and discharged from the Air Force.



3. The Minnesota Model also tried to combine psychological help and

A.A. participation, starting around 1954 at Willmar State Hospital in

Minnesota, with great success. In the early 1960's, Hazelden also

began using this method, also with great success.

But then in 1966, Lynn C., who had continued to insist that Hazelden's

treatment regimen remain "pure A.A.," finally left the center, and the

mental health professionals came to strongly dominate Hazelden from

that point on. The philosophy became one of treating "chemical

dependency" using many different disciplines and treatment modalities.

For myself, I'm not sure that the present Hazelden program could still

be termed the classic "Minnesota Model" in any kind of way.

See http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html and William L. White, Slaying the

Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America

(Bloomington, Illinois: Chestnut Health Systems and Lighthouse

Institute, 1998).

But it is certainly clear that the combination of good A.A.,

together with good psychological help for the small percentage

who need it, can be a very powerful and successful combination

in the treating of alcoholism and drug addiction.



- - - -



The conclusion I think we can draw, is that the three most successful

treatment programs which were developed during the early period of

AA history, combined total immersion into the AA fellowship, along

with psychiatric care for the small percentage who needed it. Having

even fairly severe psychological or mental problems was hardly ever

regarded as an automatic indication that one would never ever be able

to work the AA program or stay sober using the twelve steps.



In my own experience, I have seen people get sober and stay sober

who were severely schizophrenic (I remember a woman in a meeting I

used to attend who heard one of the voices in her head telling her one

day to bite off one of her own fingers, so she did it -- but she eventually

got sober, and stayed sober, and had a fair amount of serenity most of

the time). Also numerous people who were deeply bipolar. A young

woman with Down's syndrome. I used to sponsor a person with

ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). Borderline

Personality Disorder.



So if you have an alcohol or drug program AND you also have severe

psychological problems, DO NOT give up hope and fall into despair,

and start saying to yourself, "Oh, I will never ever be able get clean and

sober."



Instead, (a) start attending AA meetings and working the program, and

(b) get a good psychotherapist or psychologist or psychiatrist and let

that person help you too. Throughout AA history, people who have

done that, and done it as honestly as they could, have consistently

found sobriety, a good life, and a considerable amount of happiness.


0 -1 0 0
6230 royslev
Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk 1/16/2010 10:29:00 PM


It seems standard to identify "a friend we

shall call Jim" in pages 35-37 of the Big Book

(in Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism")



with Ralph Furlong, whose story "Another

Prodigal Story" appeared in the first edition

of the Big Book.



But the only link I can see between those two

figures is that in "Another Prodigal Story" the

protagonist drinks an ice cream soda AFTER

drinking heavily simply in order to cover up

the smell of the booze on his breath, while

Jim in "More About Alcoholism" thinks that if

he mixes whiskey in milk, he can drink that

mixture without getting drunk.



That is not the same thing at all. That

certainly does not mean that these two are

the same person.



Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism" says that

Jim had "inherited a lucrative automobile

agency," lost it through his drinking, but

then got sober for a while, and "began to

work as a salesman for the business he had

lost through drinking" (Big Book p. 35).



"Another Prodigal Story"

http://silkworth.net/bbstories/357.html

says nothing about the author ever owning

an automobile agency, losing it, having

to go back to work there as a salesman,

getting sober in AA, or having a slip and

being committed back to the asylum once

again.



How could this be the same person?



I have checked with several good AA historians

-- Lee C., Mel B., Dick B., Ray G. -- and none

of them know of any other evidence which could

be cited which would link "Jim" in Chapter 3 of

the Big Book with the person who wrote the

story "Another Prodigal Story."



And while we are at it, why is the author

of "Another Prodigal Story" identified as

Ralph Furlong? What is the evidence for that

identification?



Both in my own research, and in talking with

some good AA historians and archivists, I

have not yet discovered any reasons for

identifying "Jim" on pp. 35-37 of the Big

Book with the author of "Another Prodigal

Story," nor have I discovered any reasons why

either of these people should be identified

as a man named Ralph Furlong.



Can anybody come up with any evidence in

support of any of these identifications?



Thanks for your responses.



Roy L. ( class of '78 )



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator:



This same question has been asked before,

although not nearly as clearly as you have

done it, see Message 2187, date: Sat Feb 12,

2005, from <lghforum@earthlink.net>

(lghforum at earthlink.net)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2187



"But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the

'Jim' who thinks 'he could take whiskey if

only he mixed it with milk!' on page 37 of

the BB 3rd Edition?"



Nobody answered the question when it was

asked back there in 2005, and now Roy L. has

asked it again, so this question is still

crying out for an answer. The answer may be

simple, but what is it?


0 -1 0 0
6231 J. Lobdell
RE: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan 1/16/2010 10:36:00 PM


My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto 2005

and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941? He

was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think, in

Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober

before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober) -- there is in Bristol, Pennsylvania,

Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago

-- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter).

He's the longest sober I've met.


0 -1 0 0
6232 nuevenueve@ymail.com
How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/15/2010 9:28:00 PM


Hello Group:



Searching for some hints of an adequate time

extension to take the twelve steps I've found

some indicators v.gr. in Fr. Pfau's "Out of

the Shadow" one year; in John Batterson's

pamphlet 4 weeks; and also 4 weeks in the next

article from a previous group message:

http://www.aabacktobasics.org/B2BArticles.html



Also, heard about AAs starting their 4th step

after 7 or more sobriety years attending meetings.



Are there in the GSO-AA literature some

approaches/suggestions on an average 12 step

timing?



Is this up to the AA member's spiritual development

and to his/her sponsor? Or, in other words, does

AA have a position/recommendation on such a time

range?



Thank you.



P.S. In the Big Book chapter five there's a

continuity indication between steps 3 and 4:

"Though our decision was vital and crucial step,

it could have little permanent effect unless

at once followed by a strenuous effort to face,

and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which

had been blocking us......"


0 -1 0 0
6233 bbthumpthump
Re: minority opinion question minority opinion question 1/12/2010 12:16:00 AM


In Area 10 (Colorado) we always ask for Minority Opinion. There is hell to pay

if you don't. So, yes it is neccesary to ask for Minority Opinion. We too have

had our votes swayed at the Area. The Chair asks for Minority Opinion, then the

Chair asks if anyone's vote was swayed. If yes, then the Chair asks for a vote

to re-open discussion, then after discussion, we vote again. That vote is final.



- - - -



From: "rvnprit" <rvnprit@hotmail.com>

(rvnprit at hotmail.com)



I had the privilege of observing the minority opinion swaying the majority at

the 2008 General Service Conference. An amended recommendation from the

Conference Public Information Committee to insert the following Questions and

Answers on posthumous anonymity into the pamphlet "Understanding Anonymity" was

intially passed by the Conference by a substantial majority of 93 in favor and

35 opposed:



"Q. In general, what is the feeling of the Fellowship in regards to posthumous

anonymity?



A. In 1988 the General Service Conference recommended that: The 1971 Conference

Advisory Action be reaffirmed: 'A.A. members generally think it unwise to break

the anonymity of a member even after his death, but in each situation the final

decision must rest with the family.'



Q. Why do obituaries sometimes state that the deceased was a member of

Alcoholics Anonymous?



A. There are many reasons why this would occur. Family members and funeral

directors sometimes write the obituaries and are not aware of A.A.'s Traditions.

On the other hand, the deceased person's A.A. membership may have been revealed

due to a conscious decision made beforehand by the A.A. member, or it may have

been made by the family. A.A. members may wish to make their personal wishes

on this matter known to their families ahead of time."



After the minority spoke, in part expressing the difficult position in which

this language would put the grieving family, a motion to reconsider was passed

and after further discussion, the amended recommendation failed on a vote of 7

in favor and 121 opposed. The language was not added to the pamphlet.



This was but one of a number of times I have seen the minority opinion sway a

hasty or mistaken majority. It is a vital part of A.A.'s collective

decision-making with respect for the minority.



In love and service,



Newton P.


0 -1 0 0
6234 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/16/2010 2:59:00 AM


Jack Alexander was one of three brothers, who

were all involved in journalism:



< < Jack Alexander wrote for the New Yorker

< < and the Saturday Evening Post.



< < Roy Alexander was managing editor of Time

< < Magazine from 1949 to 1960.



< < The Rev. Calvert Alexander, S.J., was for

< < 25 years editor of Jesuit Missions.



Time Magazine "Letter From The Publisher:

Jul. 8, 1966" talks about brother Roy:



http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,835920,00.html#ixzz0chqjigmA



WE take the occasion this week to pay tribute to a man whose name has appeared

on this page for 27 years, and who during that time made an incalculable

contribution to what was printed in the pages of TIME—and thereby to U.S.

journalism. After serving as reporter, writer, senior editor, managing editor

and editor of TIME, Roy Alexander last week, at 67, retired.



His eleven years as managing editor, the key editorial post on TIME, from 1949

to 1960, add up to the longest period anyone has held that demanding position.

He brought to the job an array of talents and interests that humble most men.

His Latin is a bit rusty now, but he used to read the classics in that language

and in Greek as well. He is a serious student of philosophy, theology and

history; he flew airplanes until a few years ago, and still drives sports cars

in the manner of Jimmy Clark. He appreciates an efficient carburetor as much as

a great performance at the opera. His essential commitment is to the pursuit of

knowledge.



Roy Alexander was born in Omaha, graduated from St. Louis University, broke into

journalism on the St. Louis Star, then was a reporter and assistant city editor

on the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. A cover-to-cover reader of TIME (usually in the

bathtub, he once recalled) since its launching in 1923, he came to work for this

magazine in 1939 at a time when one of his many interests turned out to be of

special value. A Stateside marine at the end of World War I, he had maintained

an active interest in military affairs, particularly aviation. For 18 years he

flew with the 110th Observation Squadron of the Missouri National Guard; he was

mustered out, when he moved to New York, as a major and squadron commander. His

experiences in military matters made him eminently fit to edit TIME'S WORLD

BATTLEFRONTS section in World War II. Some of the best and most knowledgeable

writing about that war appeared there, and as a result, TIME became must reading

from the beaches of Peleliu to the desks of the Pentagon.



As managing editor, Roy had a much-admired knack for quick decisions, unimpeded

by any fear of making a mistake. He also had a great rapport and a mutual

confidence with the staff. Accepting cheers from all hands at a staff farewell

party last week, he responded with characteristic warmth, modesty and brevity.

"I think I realize now that I have meant something to all of you," he said. "You

have all meant a great deal more to me."



As Roy ended his service to TIME — now to spend his time largely with his wife,

seven children and 19 grandchildren — his longtime colleague, Editorial Chairman

Henry R. Luce, paid him a tribute to which all of us subscribe: "We are all in

debt to Roy Alexander for his outstanding performance. I salute him as a grand

master of the great game of Who, What, When and Why. As managing editor, he

combined an innate sense of fair play with the clear courage of his own

convictions."



*Two brothers of Roy's made their own mark in journalism. Jack Alexander wrote

for The New Yorker and the Saturday Evening Post; the Rev. Calvert Alexander,

S.J., was for 25 years editor of Jesuit Missions.


0 -1 0 0
6235 Tom Hickcox
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/17/2010 10:06:00 AM


> From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

>(jblair at videotron.ca)

>

> In the early years people were not considered

> members until they had 90 days. Early membership

> surveys excluded the people with less than 90

> days.

>



Jim, these are pretty general assertions covering a wide area.



It is my impression that membership qualifications varied widely and

depended entirely on the group.



Can you back them up with citations and include the time frame they were valid?



Thanks,



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
6236 Michael Oates
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/16/2010 10:28:00 PM


My home group encourages member with thirty days to run for meeting chair when

we hold elections, those who get elected seem to stay sober longer than those

who don't run. We still try to help others achieve sobriety rather than have an

informative and good meeting.



Michael S. Oates

D.O.S. 09-23-1993



- - - -



From: Charlie C <route20guy@yahoo.com>

(route20guy at yahoo.com)



In upstate NY the approach I have seen over the years is to expect that a

person have one year sober before chairing a meeting, or serving as secretary

etc. It is a "rule" occasionally "bent," but is the common group "rule".


0 -1 0 0
6237 J. Lobdell
Re: Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy''s Tavern? Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy''s Tavern? 1/16/2010 10:28:00 PM


Duffy's Tavern? After the radio program?



- - - -



> From: ricktompkins@comcast.net

>

> Knickerbocker cost much less than Towns' rates, and Dr. Silkworth effected a

> partnership with the AAs of NYC for their nonstop visits there.

>

> On a lighter note, in case you've ever heard of a place named "Dusty's

> Tavern" it refers to the name of the ward's Day Room.


0 -1 0 0
6238 bbthumpthump
Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James 1/16/2010 11:26:00 PM


William James's father, Henry James was a

Swedenborgian, which I'm sure influenced young

William James, and in turn Bill Wilson.



Carl Jung was also influenced by Swedenborg,

as were Kant, and of course Lois Wilson and

her family.


0 -1 0 0
6239 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James 1/17/2010 3:07:00 PM


The following article in a Jungian journal is useful for getting an idea of what

Swedenborg's writings were about: his hearing angels speaking to him, his

speaking with the spirits of the dead, his having clairvoyant knowledge of

events many miles away at the very time when they were happening, and so on. In

this article, we can also see the philosopher Kant rejecting Swedenborg's

insistence that we can communicate with spirits, but the psychiatrist Jung

eagerly reading Swedenborg's books to find out more.



This is the world in which Lois Wilson had been brought up, and the world in

which she taught Bill Wilson to live: Bill's frequent attempts to speak with the

spirits of the dead -- in which he felt that he was often quite successful --

did not seem odd at all to a Swedenborgian. And Bill's White Light experience at

Towns Hospital c. Dec 12, 1934 would again have seemed perfectly understandable

to a Swedenborgian.



The important thing is to get rid of the idea that we can make sense of Bill

Wilson and the God of the Big Book in terms of modern Protestant Fundamentalist

cults and televangelists. I am not trying to speak against those religious

groups, simply attempting to make the point that they do not help us at all in

understanding Bill Wilson or early AA. That was not at all the world that Lois

and Bill Wilson lived in.



To put it crudely, for Lois and Bill (at least when Bill was sober), you did not

gain salvation by getting down on your knees and accepting Jesus Christ as your

Lord and Savior (there is nothing in the first 164 pages of the Big Book about

that) -- you gained salvation via visions of White Light, experiences of the

Transcendentalist Over-Soul in the wonders of the starry heavens overhead, and

Swedenborgian conversations with angels who were simply the spirits of human

beings who had once lived upon this earth.



I'm not trying to attack conservative Protestants here, nor (in particular) am I

trying to suggest that we should hold seances at A.A. meetings where we attempt

to converse with the spirits of the dead! I'm just attempting to give an

accurate picture of the actual religious beliefs which Lois and Bill Wilson had.



And maybe help us all to better understand that there are "a variety of

religious experiences" which A.A. members are allowed to draw on, and that we

shouldn't get into the business of saying that one religious approach and one

alone is the ONLY correct way of practicing "real" oldtime A.A.



But anyway, here's the article:



- - - -



Eugene Taylor, "Jung on Swedenborg, Redivivus," Jung History: A Semi-Annual

Publication of the Philemon Foundation, Volume 2, Issue 2. Philemon Foundation,

119 Coulter Avenue, Suite 202, Ardmore, Pennsylvania, 19003 USA



https://philemonfoundation.org/newsletter/volume_2_issue_2/jung_on_swedenborg



[In his autobiography] Memories, Dreams, Reflections, the Swiss psychiatrist

Carl Gustav Jung recounted that his turn toward psychiatry while in medical

school was accompanied by voracious reading in the literature on psychic

phenomena. In particular, he was drawn to Kant's Dreams of a Spirit Seer and the

writing of various eighteenth and nineteenth century authors, such as Passavant,

Du Prel, Eschenmayer, Görres, Kerner, and, he said, Emanuel Swedenborg.



For man in his essence is a spirit, and together with spirits as to his

interiors, wherefore he whose interiors are open to the Lord can speak with

them. -- Emmanuel Swedenborg, Earths in the Universe



.... But at that moment in medical school what psychiatry lacked, Jung thought,

was a dynamic language of interior experience. He was, first of all, intrigued

at the time, he said, by Kant's Dreams of a Spirit-Seer, first published in

1766, four years before Kant's own inaugural dissertation.2 Kant made a radical

separation between the senses and the understanding and then debunked

communication with spirit entities. Sense impressions are all that we can know,

even though they are only impressions of outward things. The interior life of

the ego we cannot know, Kant said, even though this is all that is actually

real. He stated the outlines of his philosophy and then attacked the reigning

metaphysicians of the time, such as Leibniz and Wolff, by focusing on one

particular case, that of Emanuel Swedenborg (1688–1772), eighteenth century

scientist, philosopher, and interpreter of the Christian religious experience.



Swedenborg had spent the first half of his life mastering all the known sciences

of his day. Eventually, he would write the first Swedish algebra, introduce the

calculus to his countrymen, make major modifications on the Swedish hot air

stove, design a flying machine, and anticipate both the nebular hypothesis and

the calculation of longitude and latitude. He also studied with the great

anatomist Boerhaave, learned lens grinding, made his own microscope, and

assembled a physiological encyclopedia, in which he wrote on cerebral

circulation, and identified the Thebecian veins in the heart.



By the time Swedenborg was forty, he had written numerous books on scientific

subjects and been elected a member of the Swedish Academy of Sciences. In his

own personal quest, however, he had begun in mineralogy, geology, mathematics,

and astronomy, and then proceeded to anatomy and physiology, before turning his

attention to sensory and rational psychology, all in search of the soul. When he

reached the limits of rational consciousness, he turned within and began an

examination of his own interior states. In this, he combined techniques of

intensive concentration and breath control with a primitive form of dream

interpretation.



The effect became evident in 1744, when he claimed he experienced an opening of

the internal spiritual sense, and God spoke to him through the angels, saying

that He would dictate to Swedenborg the true internal meaning of the books of

the Bible. Swedenborg began immediately to work on this dispensation and set out

to write what came to be known as the Arcana Colestia, or Heavenly Doctrines. It

took him a dozen volumes of his own writing just to cover the first two books of

the Bible. The project came to an abrupt halt in 1757, however, when Swedenborg

had another vision, this time of a totally transformed Christianity, in which

there was a falling away of the denominations and the arising of the Lord's New

Church, as described by John in Revelations, which would come upon earth.



For the rest of his life, Swedenborg wrote about the new dispensation,

publishing more than thirty volumes. His works were studied throughout Europe

and had a particularly strong influence on the course of French and German

Freemasonry, and occult groups among the intelligentsia variously involved in

mesmerism, esoteric Christianity, Gnosticism, and the Kaballah.3 On his death,

however, instead of a transformed Christianity, a new Christian denomination

called The Church of the New Jerusalem sprang up, with principal centers in

London, Philadelphia, and Boston. To this day the ecclesiastical history of the

New Church places them as a small, conservative Christian denomination with

regular church parishes, weekly Sunday services, ordained ministers, and study

of the King James version of the Bible .... The transcendentalists read

Swedenborg avidly, as did the brothers Henry and William James .... Paralleling

these developments, Swedenborg's ideas permeated the nineteenth century American

scene and became closely allied with spiritualism and mental healing through the

works of such men as Thomas Lake Harris, the utopian socialist, and Andrew

Jackson Davis, the clairvoyant healer.



In any event, during his own later lifetime, after retiring from Parliament, and

from service to the King of Sweden, under whom he had served as the Royal

Assessor of Mines, Swedenborg contented himself with gardening and writing about

the New Jerusalem. As a member of the Swedish aristocracy, he had numerous

encounters with the Royal family and their associates. On several occasions, it

had become known that he alleged he could speak with spirits of the dead, and

was called upon by a friend of the Queen to locate lost articles of significant

value. While he himself tried to keep out of the limelight, Swedenborg drew

national attention to himself when Stockholm broke out in a great fire.

Swedenborg was 200 miles away at the time, but reported on the exact details of

the fire nonetheless to residents of Goteborg, with whom he was staying. When

word came two days later corroborating the details, he was briefly investigated

as somehow being involved in setting the fire. His exoneration, however, caused

unwanted notoriety for his alleged powers.



Eventually, Kant heard these stories and wrote to Swedenborg, but Swedenborg was

too absorbed to answer his letters. Eventually, Kant sent a messenger, who spoke

with Swedenborg and interviewed others. When asked why he did not answer Kant's

letter, Swedenborg announced he would answer him in his next book. But when his

next book came out, however, there was no mention of Kant. We can only imagine

Kant's fury, half Scottish and half German, which might account for the

harshness of his criticisms of Swedenborg in Dreams of a Spirit Seer .... Kant,

in fact, devotes an entire section in Dreams of a Spirit Seer to debunking

Swedenborg's philosophy. In particular, he takes Swedenborg to task for his

absurd descriptions of heaven and hell, the planets and their inhabitants, and

the fantastic impossibility of communication with angels. The angels, Swedenborg

believed, were the souls of departed human beings once alive, who live in Heaven

in the form of their old bodies, and consociate with those whom they have most

loved on earth but who now dwell in heavenly societies, the sum total of which

was the Grand Man.



In a previous report, it was stated that, while we know Jung read Swedenborg's

works at around the same time he was reading these other authors, we also had no

idea which ones.5 Now, due to the investigations of Sonu Shamdasani, we have a

list of the books on Swedenborg that Jung, in the middle of his medical

training, checked out of the Basel Library during 1898.6



.... The first work Jung checked out was The Arcana Coelestia, Swedenborg's

multivolume compendium giving the true internal spiritual meaning of the first

two books of the Bible and the first major work of Swedenborg's visionary era

after the original revelations of 1744. The importance of the Arcana is that,

referring to the opening of the interior spiritual sense, Swedenborg maintains

that the images of the Bible must be read symbolically and metaphorically

according to the level of spiritual self-actualization of the person. The Bible

is fundamentally a map indicating the stages of spiritual consciousness one must

go through to reach the final stage of regeneration. One sees, however, into

one's own interiors to the level of one's ability. To the literalist, for

instance, God created earth and man and woman in seven days. For Swedenborg,

each day of creation is the expression of a different stage of consciousness

that must be mastered in the process of self-realization. The crucifixion of

Jesus and his resurrection is the death of the personal, self-centered ego and

the arising of the spiritual dimension of personality, expressed as the

purification of the soul, which is our link to the Divine while alive and to

heaven upon our death. Revelation is not the end of the physical world, but a

cataclysmic event in consciousness, an ecstatic, nay, mystical awakening in

which the doors of perception are cleansed and we finally see that the natural

is derived from the spiritual, not the other way around, and in this way the

earth has been transformed.



A period of nine months then intervened, during which time we presume Jung was

contemplating the content and meaning of the Arcana. Then in September, 1898, he

checked out Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell. Heaven and Hell is a work that should

be read as Swedenborg's communication on the nature of life after death. More

importantly, however, it is an expanded statement of his claim that "Heaven is

made by the Lord, while hell is created by man out of the misuse of the

capacities of rationality and freedom." This would be a description of the

angels and their Heavenly societies and their relation to the Lord, which is the

Grand Man. This description takes up most of the book, together with a

description of the hells, which come from vanity, self-centeredness, and lust.

We see in this work the iconography of a person's interior, phenomenological

world view, much as Jung would reconstruct the interior world view of his

patients, or ask his clients to reconstruct in their artistic depiction of

states of individuation.



Then, a month later, Jung returned to check out Earths in the Solar System, The

Soul and the Body in their Correlations, and The Delights of Wisdom Concerning

Conjugal Love, all on the same day. Only the general gist of these volumes can

be given here. Earths in the Solar System presents Swedenborg's view that, not

only are there spirits on the after death plane, they also inhabit other planets

besides earth. The rationale for this is threefold. First, because the universe

is bigger than the earth alone (in other words,consciousness is not defined or

even solely made up of the rational waking state), and there is no reason to

presume that we are the only entities out there; second, because nearly all

cultures on earth report such communications, except those inhabiting western

modernist societies; and third, because Swedenborg reported that he was visited

by spirits from these other planets and was just chronicling what he had seen

and heard.



The Soul and the Body and their Correlations is Swedenborg's restatement of his

doctrine of correspondences -- that every aspect of the physical world is

somehow reflected in the life of the soul. Jung perpetually returned to this

linkage with his interest in the mind/body problem, and the personal equation in

science; that is, how we simultaneously can know and experience phenomena, a

question that formed the basis for his later exchange with the physicist

Wolfgang Pauli. The Doctrines Concerning Conjugal Love expresses Swedenborg's

revelation about the spiritual relation of the sexes in the process of

regeneration. Man can only learn to love God through the love he experiences

through others, and again, the essential relation of the opposites emerges. In

addition, one cannot help but notice that this is also the controversial volume

in which Swedenborg, himself an unmarried man with no apparent consort

throughout his life, advocates that it is permissible for a married man to take

on a second partner.



In any event, there is more to be said about the nature of the connections

between Jung and Swedenborg's ideas. It is sufficient here to indicate that new

scholarship in this area is proceeding.



Footnotes

1.F.X. Charet ((1993). Spiritualism and the Foundations of C. G. Jung's

Psychology. Albany: SUNY Press.) has implied that Jung's motivation for reading

this literature had been the recent death of his father, in hopes of

communicating with him from beyond the grave. This might be plausible if Charet

had more evidence from Jung himself on this point, but it seems even less likely

given that Charet's project to link Jung to spiritualism omits a crucial focus

on the process of self-realization, of which spiritist phenomena must be

considered a mere subsidiary and not a goal in and of themselves. Charet has

spiritism as his main focus, with little mention of its relation to the process

of individuation. Rather, supernormal powers are an epiphenomenon in the process

of self-realization and only indicative of one's progress, at least according to

the Yoga texts with which Jung was most familiar. Attachment to them leads to

karmic rebirth in a lower plane, knowing that a higher exists, which is worse,

the text says, than not knowing that there is a higher interior life at all.

2.Kant, Immanuel (1915/1766). Dreams of a Spirit Seer, Illustrated by Dreams of

Metaphysics. Tr. E.F. Goerwitz, ed. By F Sewall. 2nd ed. London: New Church

Press.

3.Gabay, Alfred (2005). The Covert Enlightenment: Eighteenth century

counter-culture and its aftermath. West Chester, PA: Swedenborg Foundation;

Taylor, EI. (1999). Shadow Culture: Psychology and spirituality in America.

Washington, DC: Counterpoint.

4.Passavant, Johann Karl (1821). Untersuchungen über den Lebensmagnetismus und

das Hellsehen. Frankfurt am Main : H. L. Brönner; DuPrel, Karl Ludwig (1970

edition). Das Rätsel des Menschen. Wiesbaden: Löwith; Eschenmayer, Carl Adolph

(1837). Konflikt zwischen Himmel und Hölle, an dem Dämon eines besessenen

Mädchens. [Caroline Stadelbauer]. Nebst einem Wort an Dr. Strauss. Tübingen,

Leipzig, verlag der Buchhandlung Zu-Guttenberg; Kerner, Justinus. (1835).

Geschichten Besessener neuerer Zeit. Beobachtungen aus dem Gebiete

kakodämonisch-magnetischer Erscheinungen. Karlsruhe: Braun. Görres, Joseph von,

(1854-55) La mystique divine, naturelle, et diabolique, par Görres, ouvrage

traduit de l'allemand par M. Charles Sainte-Foi. Paris, Mme Vve

Poussielgue-Rusand.

5.Taylor, EI (1991). Jung and his intellectual context: The Swedenborgian

connection, Studia Swedenborgiana, 7:2.

6.Sonu Shamdasani, by permission. Translation courtesy of Ms. Angela Sullivan.

7.Compare, for instance, with vishwavirat svarupam, the univsersal form of the

cosmic man, in Tantric Hinduism. unmarried man with no apparent consort

throughout his life, advocates that it is permissible for a married man to take

on a second partner.


0 -1 0 0
6240 ricktompkins
Re: Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy''s Tavern? Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy''s Tavern? 1/17/2010 2:35:00 PM


I stand corrected, Jared, searched for and

found the biography -- hopefully Hazelden will

start reprinting Dale Mitchell's work again!



The Day Room separating new alcoholic patients

and those approaching discharge was named Duffy's

Tavern not 'Dusty's.'



And, Dr. Silkworth was officially hired as

director of alcoholic treatment at Knickerbocker

Hospital in 1945, not 1940.



Mea culpa and best regards, Rick



- - - -



From: J. Lobdell

Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010



Do you mean Duffy's Tavern? ... After the radio program?


0 -1 0 0
6241 happycycler
Re: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan 1/17/2010 2:50:00 PM


Please See:



U.S. Social Security Death Index

Search Results

Chauncey COSTELLO

Birth Date: 30 Dec 1910

Death Date: 11 May 2006

Social Security Number: 386-01-6198

State or Territory Where Number Was Issued: Michigan

Death Residence Localities

ZIP Code: 48342

Localities: Pontiac, Oakland, Michigan



http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp



Karl K.



- - - -



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:

>

> My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto

2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941?

He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think,

in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober

before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober) -- there is in Bristol, Pennsylvania,

Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago

-- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter).

He's the longest sober I've met.


0 -1 0 0
6242 george
William James Symposium William James Symposium 1/17/2010 3:39:00 PM


For those who can't get enough of William James, consider a summer symposium

divided between the White Mountains of New Hampshire and Cambridge,

Massachusetts.



http://www.wjsociety.org/



William James Symposium



A Symposium for Honoring

â€"and making use ofâ€"William James:

In the Footsteps of William James



The William James Society is planning a long-weekend symposium, August 6-9,

2010, to honor the life of James on the occasion of the hundredth anniversary of

his death. In the spirit of James, the symposium, “In the Footsteps of

William James' will be an opportunity to explore the local settings of

James's life and to reflect on James's ability to encounter experience

afresh and approach problems creatively.

The symposium will therefore have two dimensions and we seek presenters for

both:

1. with the symposium taking place at Chocorua, NH, and Cambridge, MA, we call

for presenters familiar with his life in either or both places who could serve

as guides for the participants; there are some residents in both places that

will already be serving this role, so our primary call is for our second

dimension;

2. for a symposium as much about the public intellectual significance of

James's thought as his scholarly contributions, we call for presenters who can

address issues of historic and contemporary relevance as illuminated by

James's life and work, for sessions to include topics such as these:

- The Pragmatist Turn, and its potential for reconciling disputes and fostering

common sense in public discourse,

- Values Voters and Valuing Citizenship, on the uses of his theories for

comprehending differences and encouraging listening, and his speaking out

against social injustice,

- Educational Renewal, from James's own classroom experiences to his talks to

teachers and about education, to his potential to foster opening of minds,

- Spirituality and Belief, with James in anticipation of the endurance of

religion and spirituality in secular settings and of theories for embracing

differences of belief,

- Mental Health, from his theory of habits to his inspirations to help people

with addiction and to encourage the research in positive psychology,

- Appraisals of James by his colleagues, friends, students, and successors in

various fields.

Please send an abstract of 100 words and a brief description of qualifications

to the William James Symposium Committee by January 15, 2010 to:

*Lynn Bridgers: l.bridgers@worldnet.att.net;

*Paul Croce: pcroce@stetson.edu; or Box 8274, Stetson University, 421 N.

Woodland Blvd., DeLand, FL 32720; or

*John Kaag: John_Kaag@UML.edu; or Department of Philosophy, University of

Massachusetts, Lowell, 102 Olney Hall, Lowell, MA 01856



George Cleveland


0 -1 0 0
6243 kevinr1211
Re: Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James 1/17/2010 3:38:00 PM


Henry James (the father) was also thought to

be an alcoholic. The family put a lot of money

into the children's education though, with good

results! The money came from the grandfather...



- - - -



In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"bbthumpthump" <steve@...> wrote:

>

> William James's father, Henry James was a

> Swedenborgian, which I'm sure influenced young

> William James, and in turn Bill Wilson.

>

> Carl Jung was also influenced by Swedenborg,

> as were Kant, and of course Lois Wilson and

> her family.

>


0 -1 0 0
6244 Jay Pees
How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/17/2010 2:04:00 PM


On pages 75-76 of our Big Book it indicates

the waiting period to do Step 6 is about 1 hour.


0 -1 0 0
6245 Bill Lash
RE: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/17/2010 4:01:00 PM


Starting their 4th Step after 7 years? Wow, that's just crazy & certainly

not the AA message! I always like sticking to what the AA literature says

so here's an article I wrote called "When do we work the Steps" compiling

statements mostly from the Big Book's clear-cut directions:



http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Steps_Recovery/Pre-Step_Work/When_Do_W\

e_Work_the_Steps.pdf




Just Love,

Barefoot Bill



- - - -



When Do You Want to Get Well?



by Barefoot Bill



"I wonder how many alcoholics upon finding out they had a deadly ailment and a

doctor had a cure would sit in the

doctor's waiting room 90 times in 90 days (or for a year or more) and wait for

the medicine to be administered to them. I

also wonder how many alcoholics do the same thing concerning our 12 Steps; they

go to 90 meetings in 90 days hoping

to have a spiritual awakening without taking the Steps." - Archie M.

I have been scolded a few times (by fellow AA's) because of the fact that I

sometimes share at meetings about how the

Steps are meant to be worked immediately and quickly. I've been told that this

"theory" will "harm" newcomers (having

only a few days, a few weeks, or a few months) who could not possibly be "ready"

to do the work yet. Then I'm usually

told that these new members should just go to meetings for a while and

eventually they'll "know" when they are ready to

get into the Program. In the early days of AA, when a new person showed up to

their first meeting and asked about when

they were going to get into working the Steps, established members usually asked

them, "When do you want to get well?

If you want to get well now, we'll be working the Steps now. If you DON'T want

to get well now, I guess you can put off

the Steps, but by doing so you're probably going to drink." I do not agree that

we first get our life together and then turn to

God. I believe that we turn to God and then, AND ONLY THEN, do we begin to get

our life together. That's exactly what

the Steps are all about. As a matter of fact, Bill Wilson got into the Steps

after a few days, Dr. Bob got into the Steps after

one day, and Bill Dotson (AA #3) also got into the Steps after a few days. These

were the first three members of AA and

none of them ever drank again. But for me the bottom line is, what does the AA

Program and the AA literature have to

say about it? Since it says, "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has

thoroughly followed our path," then what does the

PATH say? The following is a list of timeframes found in the Big Book, and is

the basis for my experience and the

experience of those I've worked with. Page and paragraph numbers are from the

new Fourth edition.

Page xxvi:4 - "Though we work out our solution on the spiritual as well as an

altruistic plane, we favor hospitalization for

the alcoholic who is very jittery or befogged. More often than not, it is

imperative that a man's brain be cleared before he

is approached, as he has then a better chance of understanding and accepting

what we have to offer." (So it says we

need to be detoxed off of alcohol first, which usually takes two or three days

but in extreme cases takes four or five days,

before getting into the work. See also page xxvii:7.)

Page xxvii:5 - "Many years ago one of the leading contributors to this book

(Bill Wilson) came under our care in this

hospital and while here he acquired some ideas which he put into practical

application AT ONCE." (In about three days

Bill was into working almost all of what later became the AA program. See also

page 13.)

Page xxvii:7 - "Of course an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical

craving for liquor, and this often requires a

definite hospital procedure, before psychological measures (like the Steps) can

be of maximum benefit." (For

psychological measures to benefit us we need to be applying them. So again, it's

saying we need to be detoxed off of

alcohol first, which usually takes two or three days but in extreme cases takes

five or six days, before getting into the

Steps. See also page xxvi:4.)

Page 9 - "The door opened and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There

was something about his eyes. He was

inexplicably different. What had happened?

"I pushed a drink across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I

wondered what had got into the fellow. He

wasn't himself.

"'Come, what's all this about?' I queried.

"He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly, he said, 'I've got religion.'

"I was aghast. So that was it last summer an alcoholic crackpot; now, I

suspected, a little cracked about religion. He had

that starry-eyed look. Yes, the old boy was on fire all right. But bless his

heart, let him rant! Besides, my gin would last

longer than his preaching.

"But he did no ranting. In a matter of fact way he told how two men had appeared

in court, persuading the judge to

suspend his commitment. They had told of a simple religious idea and a practical

program of action. That was two months

ago and the result was self-evident. It worked!

"He had come to pass his experience along to me -- if I cared to have it. I was

shocked, but interested. Certainly I was

interested. I had to be, for I was hopeless." (So we don't have to wait very

long to start doing Twelfth Step work, all that's

required first is that we have worked most of the 12 Steps.)

Pages 13 thru 15 - "At the hospital I (Bill Wilson) was separated from alcohol

for the last time (Bill was admitted to Towns

Hospital at 2:30PM on December 11, 1934. Bill was 39 years old.). Treatment

seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium

tremens. There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then I understood Him, to do

with me as He would. I placed myself

UNRESERVEDLY under His care and direction. I admitted for the first time that of

myself I was nothing; that without Him I

was lost (Bill takes what later became Step Three. He reached the conclusions of

Step One on page 8:1 and Step Two on

12:4). I RUTHLESSLY faced my sins (what later became Step Four) and became

willing to have my new-found Friend

(God) take them away, root and branch (what later became Steps Six and Seven). I

have not had a drink since.

My schoolmate (Ebby Thacher) visited me, and I FULLY acquainted him with my

problems and deficiencies (what later

became Step Five). We made a list of people I had hurt or toward whom I felt

resentment. I expressed my entire

willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong (what later became

Step Eight). NEVER was I to be critical

of them. I was to right ALL such matters to the UTMOST of my ability (what later

became Step Nine).

I was to test my thinking by the new God-consciousness within. Common sense

would thus become un-common sense

(these two lines refer to what later became Step Ten). I was to sit quietly when

in doubt, asking ONLY for direction and

strength to meet my problems as He would have me. NEVER was I to pray for

myself, except as my requests bore on my

usefulness to others (what later became Step Eleven). Then only might I expect

to receive. But that would be in great

measure. My friend promised when these things were done I would enter upon a new

relationship with my Creator; that I

would have the elements of a way of living which answered ALL my problems (what

later became the first two parts of

Step Twelve). Belief in the power of God, plus enough willingness, honesty and

humility to establish and maintain the new

order of things, were the ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENTS.

Simple, but not easy; a price HAD to be paid. It meant DESTRUCTION of

self-centeredness. I MUST turn in ALL things to

the Father of Light who presides over us all.

These were revolutionary and drastic proposals, but the moment I FULLY accepted

them, the effect was electric. There

was a sense of victory, followed by such a peace and serenity as I had never

know. There was utter confidence. I felt

lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and

through. God comes to most men gradually,

but His impact on me was sudden and profound.

For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend, the doctor (Dr. Silkworth), to

ask if I were still sane. He listened in

wonder as I talked.

Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has happened to you I don't

understand. But you had better hang on to it.

Anything is better than the way you were." The good doctor now sees many men who

have such experiences. He knows

that they are real.

While I lay in the hospital the thought came that there were thousands of

hopeless alcoholics who might be glad to have

what had been so freely given me. Perhaps I could help some of them. They in

turn might work with others.

My friend had emphasized the ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of demonstrating these

principles in ALL my affairs. Particularly

was it IMPERATIVE to work with others as he had worked with me (what later

became the last part of Step Twelve). Faith

without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! FOR

IF AN ALCOHOLIC FAILED TO

PERFECT AND ENLARGE HIS SPIRITUAL LIFE THROUGH WORK AND SELF-SACRIFICE FOR

OTHERS, HE

COULD NOT SURVIVE THE CERTAIN TRIALS AND LOW SPOTS AHEAD. If he did not work, he

would SURELY drink

again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed.

With us it is just like that." (So two or three

days after Bill is admitted into the hospital on December 11th he has a

spiritual experience AS THE RESULT of working

almost all the Steps immediately and quickly in a few days. He THEN talks with

his doctor about what happened to him on

December 14th and is released from the hospital on the afternoon of December

18th).

Page 58:2 - "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to

any length to get it - THEN YOU ARE

READY TO TAKE CERTAIN STEPS." (I'd like to suggest that they are talking about

TWELVE certain steps and you'll

soon see why. Some say that we stay within the first three Steps for a year when

you first get to AA, but please notice

what it says next about Step Three on pages 63:4 -- 64:0.)

Page 63:4 - "NEXT we launch out on a course of VIGOROUS action, the first step

of which is a personal housecleaning,

which many of us had never attempted. Though our decision (which is the Third

Step decision) was a vital and crucial

step, it could have LITTLE PERMANENT EFFECT unless AT ONCE followed by a

STRENUOUS EFFORT to face, AND

to be rid of, the things in ourselves which had been blocking us." (So it's

saying that this Third Step decision is important

but will have LITTLE PERMANENT EFFECT unless we IMMEDIATELY follow it up with an

INTENSELY ACTIVE

EFFORT to work Steps Four through Nine, because where we face these things that

block us from turning our will and our

lives over to God is in Steps Four, Five, and Six; and where we get rid of what

blocks us from turning our will and lives

over is in Steps Seven, Eight, and Nine. So the way we turn our will and lives

over to the care of God as we understand

Him is by IMMEDIATELY and STRENUOUSLY working AT LEAST the six middle Steps.)

Page 72:2 - "We will be more reconciled to discussing ourselves with another

person (doing a Fifth Step) when we see

good reasons why we should do so. The best reason first: If we skip this vital

step, we may not overcome drinking. Time

after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their

lives. Trying to avoid this humbling

experience, they have turned to easier methods. Almost invariably they got

drunk. Having persevered with the rest of the

program, they wondered why they fell. We think the reason is that they never

completed their housecleaning. They took

inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock. They only

thought they had lost their egoism and fear;

they only thought they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough

of humility, fearlessness and honesty,

in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else all their life

story (Fifth Step)." (It's talking about

NEWCOMERS working ALL of the Steps.)

Page 74:2 - "Notwithstanding the GREAT NECESSITY for discussing ourselves with

someone (doing a Fifth Step), it may

be one is so situated that there is no suitable person available. If that is so,

this step may be postponed, ONLY, however,

if we hold ourselves in COMPLETE readiness to go through with it at the FIRST

opportunity." (See also page 75:1.)

Page 75:1 - "When we decide who is to hear our story (our Fifth Step), WE WASTE

NO TIME." (So after we write our

three Fourth Step inventories of resentment, fear, and harms; it says we

IMMEDIATELY share our Fifth Step.)

Page 75:3 - "Returning home we find a place where we can be quiet for AN HOUR,

carefully reviewing what we have

done." (It's saying that IMMEDIATELY following our Fifth Step, we spend ONE HOUR

of undisturbed and uninterrupted

quiet time, seeing if the foundation we have built with our first five Steps is

done honestly and to the best of our ability.

Then see page 76:1.)

Page 76:1 - "If we can answer to our satisfaction (the questions we ask

ourselves IMMEDIATELY following our Fifth Step

in the previous paragraph), we THEN look at Step Six. We have emphasized

willingness as being indispensable. ARE WE

NOW READY to let God remove from us ALL the things which we have admitted are

objectionable (in our Fourth and Fifth

Steps)? Can He NOW take them ALL - everyone? If we still cling to something we

will not let go, we ask God to help us

be willing." (So Six immediately follows the hour we took after Five. So Five

and Six are both done on the same day.)

Page 76:2 - "WHEN READY (which answers one of the questions of Step Six), we say

something like this: 'My Creator, I

am NOW willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you NOW

remove from me every single defect

of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows.

Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to

do your bidding. Amen.' We have then completed Step Seven." (In Step Six, we

were asked if we were NOW ready. If

we are, we then do Step Seven. If there are SOME defects we are NOT willing to

go to God with, we pray for the

willingness to ask God to help us with them, but go on to Step Seven with the

defects we ARE willing to ask God to help

us with. Either way, Step Five, Six, and Seven are all done on the same day.

Steps Three and Seven are then a daily

striving and prayer, practiced for the rest of our lives.)

Page 76:3 - "NOW we need more action, without which we find that "Faith without

works is dead." Let's look at Steps

Eight and Nine. We have a list of ALL persons we have harmed and to whom we are

willing to make amends. We made it

when we took inventory. We subjected ourselves to a drastic self-appraisal. NOW

we go out to our fellows and repair the

damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which has

accumulated out of our effort to live on self-will

and run the show ourselves. If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it

comes. Remember it was agreed at the

beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol." (NOW is

mentioned twice in this paragraph, and even

says, "NOW we go out". So Steps Five through Nine are ALL done together (in

rapid succession), according to the

directions in the Big Book. If there are a few amends we are NOT willing to

make, we pray for the willingness but proceed

with the amends we ARE willing to make.)

Page 83:3 - "Some people cannot be seen -- we send them an honest letter. And

there may be a valid reason for

postponement in some cases (in doing Step 9). But we DON"T DELAY IF IT CAN BE

AVOIDED."

Page 84:2 - "This thought (the thought of the Ninth Step promises ALWAYS

materializing IF we work for them) brings us

to Step Ten, which suggests we CONTINUE to take personal inventory and CONTINUE

to set right ANY new mistakes

AS WE GO ALONG (so the Tenth Step is NOT done just at night but should be done

MOMENT BY MOMENT, AS WE

GO ALONG throughout the day). We VIGOROUSLY commenced THIS way of living (the

Steps Ten and Eleven "way of

living") AS WE CLEANED UP THE PAST (we begin to clean up the past in Step

Nine.)." (So Ten and Eleven begin to be

worked as soon as we start making amends.) "…It should continue for a LIFETIME

(So we never stop working Step

Ten)."

Page 95:1 -- "Sometimes a new man is anxious to proceed (in the Big Book's

Original Manuscript, this word was replaced

with, "make a decision and discuss his affairs") at once, and you may be tempted

to let him do so. This is sometimes a

mistake (they are only talking about the first visit here). If he has trouble

later, he is likely to say you rushed him." (So it's

saying that on the FIRST visit we shouldn't get the new person into the Steps

yet, but please see 96:2 to see what it says

about the SECOND visit.)

Page 96:2 - Suppose now you are making your second visit to a (new) man. He has

read this volume (the Big Book) and

says he is prepared to go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of

recovery. HAVING HAD THE EXPERIENCE

YOURSELF, you can give him MUCH practical advice. Let him know you are available

of he wishes to make a decision

(Step Three) and tell his story (Steps Four and Five), but do not insist upon it

if he prefers to consult someone else.

Page 156:3 - But life was not easy for the two friends (Bill Wilson & Dr. Bob).

Plenty of difficulties presented themselves.

Both saw that they MUST keep SPIRITUALLY active. One day they called up the head

nurse of a local hospital. They

explained their need and inquired if she had a first class alcoholic prospect.

She replied, "Yes, we've got a corker (Bill Dotson, whose sober date is June 26,

1935). He's just beaten up a couple of

nurses. Goes off his head completely when he's drinking. But he's a grand chap

when he's sober, though he's been in

here eight times in the last six months. Understand he was once a well-known

lawyer in town, but just now we've got him

strapped down tight."

Here was a prospect all right but, by the description, none too promising. The

use of SPIRITUAL principles in such case

was not so well understood as it is now. But one of the friends said, "Put him

in a private room. We'll be down."

Two days later, a future fellow of Alcoholics Anonymous stared glassily at the

strangers beside his bed. "Who are you

fellows, and why this private room? I was always in a ward before."

Said one of the visitors, "We're giving you a treatment for alcoholism."

Hopelessness was written large on the man's face as he replied, "Oh, but that's

no use. Nothing would fix me. I'm a goner.

The last three times, I got drunk on the way home from here. I'm afraid to go

out the door. I can't understand it." (Part of

Bill D.'s First Step conclusion, and please notice the Twelfth Step work over

the next few paragraphs.)

For an hour, the two friends told him about their drinking experiences. Over and

over, he would say: "That's me. That's

me. I drink like that."

The man in the bed was told of the acute poisoning from which he suffered, how

it deteriorates the body of an alcoholic

and warps his mind. There was much talk about the mental state preceding the

first drink.

"Yes, that' me," said the sick man, "the very image. You fellows know your stuff

all right, but I don't see what good it'll do.

You fellows are somebody. I was once, but I'm a nobody now. From what you tell

me, I know more than ever I can't stop

(more of Bill D.'s First Step conclusion)." At this both the visitors burst into

a laugh. Said the future Fellow Anonymous:

"Damn little to laugh about that I can see."

The two friends spoke of their SPIRITUAL experience and told him about the

COURSE OF ACTION they carried out.

He interrupted: "I used to be strong for the church, but that won't fix it. I've

prayed to God on hangover mornings and

sworn that I'd never touch another drop but by nine o'clock I'd be boiled as an

owl."

Next day found the prospect more receptive. He had been thinking it over. "Maybe

you're right," he said. "God ought to be

able to do anything (Bill D.'s Second Step conclusion)." Then he added, "He sure

didn't do much for me when I was trying

to fight this booze racket alone."

ON THE THIRD DAY the lawyer gave his life to the care and direction of his

Creator (Bill D.'s Step Three decision), and

said he was perfectly willing to do ANYTHING necessary (Steps Four through

Twelve). His wife came, scarcely daring to

be hopeful, though she thought she saw something different about her husband

already. He had begun to have a spiritual

experience.

That afternoon he put on his clothes and walked from the hospital a free man. He

entered a political campaign, making

speeches, frequenting men's gathering places of all sorts, often staying up all

night. He lost the race by only a narrow

margin. But he had found God is and in finding God had found himself.

That was in June, 1935. He never drank again. He too, has become a respected and

useful member of his community. He

has helped other men recover, and is a power in the church from which he was

long absent. (So Bill Dotson, or AA #3,

got right into the Steps within a few days, as was the practice in early AA.)

Page 262:6 - The day before I was due to go back to Chicago (this is during the

summer of 1937), a Wednesday and Dr.

Bob's day off, he had me down to the office and we spent THREE OR FOUR HOURS

formally going through the Six Step

program (which later became AA's Twelve Step program) as it was at that time.

The six steps were: 1. Complete deflation

(which later became Step 1). 2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power

(which later became Steps 2,3,6,7 &

11). 3. Moral inventory (which later became Steps 4 & 10). 4. Confession (which

later became Step 5). 5. Restitution

(which later became Steps 8 & 9). 6. Continued work with other alcoholics (which

later became Step 12). Dr. Bob led me

through ALL of these steps. At the moral inventory (Steps 4 & 5), he brought up

some of my bad personality traits or

character defects, such as selfishness, conceit, jealousy, carelessness,

intolerance, ill-temper, sarcasm and resentments.

We went over these at great length and then he finally asked me if I wanted

these defects of character removed (Step 6).

When I said yes, we both knelt at his desk and prayed, each of us asking to have

these defects taken away (Step 7). This

picture is still vivid. If I live to be a hundred, it will always stand out in

my mind. It was very impressive and I wish that

every A.A. could have the benefit of this type of sponsorship today. Dr. Bob

ALWAYS emphasized the religious angle

VERY STRONGLY, and I think it helped. I know it helped me. Dr. Bob then led me

through the restitution step, in which I

made a list of ALL of the persons I had harmed (Step 8), and worked out ways and

means of slowly making restitution

(Step 9). (So again, most of the Steps being worked in one day.)

Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, page 101 -- "Dorothy S.M. recalled the 1937

meetings…"The newcomers surrendered

in the presence of all those other people." After the surrender, many of the

steps -- involving inventory, admission of

character defects, and making restitution -- were taken within a matter of

days."


0 -1 0 0
6246 Steven Harris
Re: Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking 1/18/2010 12:29:00 AM


Thank you, I identifed with about six or seven

personailty disorders that I come to understand

as alcoholism ... as well as the maladjustment

to life that Dr. William Silkworth talks about

in The Doctor's Opinion ... I really understand

that I have not just been physically ill but

mentally ill .... Thank u again cheers...



Sent from my iPhone



- - - -



Big Book, "The Doctor's Opinion"



"The physician who, at our request, gave us this let-

ter, has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views in

another statement which follows. In this statement he

confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture

must believe--that the body of the alcoholic is quite as

abnormal as his mind. It did not satisfy us to be told

that we could not control our drinking just because we

were maladjusted to life, that we were in full flight

from reality, or were outright mental defectives. These

things were true to some extent, in fact, to a consider-

able extent with some of us. But we are sure that our

bodies were sickened as well."



"'The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult, and

in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are,

of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable.

We are all familiar with this type. They are always "going

on the wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and

make many resolutions, but never a decision.'"



"'There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that

he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking.

He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type

who always believes that after being entirely free from

alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without

danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, per-

haps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom

a whole chapter could be written.'"



- - - -



On 17 Jan 2010, at 04:17, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



> As I understand it, the question you are asking is, what were they

> talking about, in terms of modern psychological terminology, when they

> referred on p. 58 of the Big Book to people "who suffer from grave

> emotional and mental disorders," and when they referred on p. 62 of

> the Big Book to "self-delusion"?

>

> This basic question has been asked a number of times over the years in

> the AAHistoryLovers, in various kinds of ways, most recently in

> Message #6195

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6195

>

> And so far, nobody has ever written a message back giving any

> satisfactory answer.

>

> Let me try to give you a different kind of answer, however. There were

> three basic models of alcoholism treatment in the early days, which

> had

> extremely high success rates, and which were positively disposed

> towards AA.

>

> 1.. Sister Ignatia's treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron.

> They had a psychiatrist on staff, and when an alcoholic came in who

> needed psychiatric help in addition to guidance in working the steps,

> they sent that person to the hospital psychiatrist. There is a

> chapter on

> her program in Bill Swegan's book:

> http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

>

> 2. The Lackland Model developed by A.A. member Bill Swegen and

> famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West (later copied by

> Captain Joseph Zuska and A.A. member Commander Richard Jewell

> for their Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach, with equal

> success).

> http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html

> In this treatment method, leadership of the treatment was shared

> between a good psychiatrist and an A.A. member with a lot of quality

> time in the program. Bill Swegan reports that only a certain

> percentage

> of the alcoholics whom they treated actually had severe psychiatric

> problems, and that usually the only people who could actually profit

> from psychiatric help were those who were a little better educated and

> more aware of their own emotions. If the alcoholic's psychiatric

> problems were crippling and could not be treated well enough to

> restore that person to active duty in the Air Force, the person was

> denied treatment for his alcoholism and discharged from the Air Force.

>

> 3. The Minnesota Model also tried to combine psychological help and

> A.A. participation, starting around 1954 at Willmar State Hospital in

> Minnesota, with great success. In the early 1960's, Hazelden also

> began using this method, also with great success.

> But then in 1966, Lynn C., who had continued to insist that Hazelden's

> treatment regimen remain "pure A.A.," finally left the center, and the

> mental health professionals came to strongly dominate Hazelden from

> that point on. The philosophy became one of treating "chemical

> dependency" using many different disciplines and treatment modalities.

> For myself, I'm not sure that the present Hazelden program could still

> be termed the classic "Minnesota Model" in any kind of way.

> See http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html and William L. White, Slaying the

> Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America

> (Bloomington, Illinois: Chestnut Health Systems and Lighthouse

> Institute, 1998).

> But it is certainly clear that the combination of good A.A.,

> together with good psychological help for the small percentage

> who need it, can be a very powerful and successful combination

> in the treating of alcoholism and drug addiction.

>

> - - - -

>

> The conclusion I think we can draw, is that the three most successful

> treatment programs which were developed during the early period of

> AA history, combined total immersion into the AA fellowship, along

> with psychiatric care for the small percentage who needed it. Having

> even fairly severe psychological or mental problems was hardly ever

> regarded as an automatic indication that one would never ever be able

> to work the AA program or stay sober using the twelve steps.

>

> In my own experience, I have seen people get sober and stay sober

> who were severely schizophrenic (I remember a woman in a meeting I

> used to attend who heard one of the voices in her head telling her one

> day to bite off one of her own fingers, so she did it -- but she

> eventually

> got sober, and stayed sober, and had a fair amount of serenity most of

> the time). Also numerous people who were deeply bipolar. A young

> woman with Down's syndrome. I used to sponsor a person with

> ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). Borderline

> Personality Disorder.

>

> So if you have an alcohol or drug program AND you also have severe

> psychological problems, DO NOT give up hope and fall into despair,

> and start saying to yourself, "Oh, I will never ever be able get

> clean and sober."

>

> Instead, (a) start attending AA meetings and working the program, and

> (b) get a good psychotherapist or psychologist or psychiatrist and let

> that person help you too. Throughout AA history, people who have

> done that, and done it as honestly as they could, have consistently

> found sobriety, a good life, and a considerable amount of happiness.

>

>

>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6247 stevec012000
Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/17/2010 6:50:00 PM


From Steve C., Bailey, jax760, and elisabeth98043



- - - -



From "stevec012000"

<steven.calderbank@verizon.net>

(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)



Page 98 in Not God claims that Bill finally

took his fifth when he met Father Dowling.

That was several years after his meeting with

Ebby. I am sure Dr. Kurtz can elaborate on

that more if he cares. Unless I am reading

this wrong.



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



DR Bob said the steps simmer down in the last to

love and service. People giving rules for the

steps forget they are suggested, and our book

is suggested only.



There are stories in AA of Akron AAers taking

a novice into an upstairs room and getting him

on his knees and running him quickly through

the required dogma of the time.



- - - -



From: "jax760" <jax760@yahoo.com>

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



From Appendix II, page 569



"What often takes place in a few months

could hardly be accomplished by years of

self-discipline."



What often takes place is a "spiritual experience"

or "spiritual awakening" also described as a

"personality change", "religious experiences,

"sudden and spectacular upheavals" "sudden

revolutionary changes", "Godconsciousness",

"vast change in feeling and outlook",

"transformations", "profound alterations"



"Having had a spiritual awakening as THE RESULT

OF THESE STEPS....."



which often takes place in a few months.



"self discipline" ....trying to not to drink and

just attending the meetings?



God Bless



- - - -



From: "Elisabeth" <elisabeth98043@yahoo.com>

(elisabeth98043 at yahoo.com)



If you read the old literature, it says that the

newcomers weren't even allowed into the meetings

until they had done all 6 steps (as they were back

then).


0 -1 0 0
6248 ricktompkins
Re: minority opinion question minority opinion question 1/17/2010 3:03:00 PM


Another example, with background on the AA

principles involved, of the Minority Opinion

in action at the Area level. From one of the

Appendices of Area 20 (Northern Illinois)'s

published history book, used with permission.



Rick, Illinois

_____



OUR THIRD LEGACY AND A REMARKABLE CONSENSUS



A number of factors apply to the search for a consensus from the

groups of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the decisions eventually approved on

any particular issue show the use of sound A.A. principles. Any group

conscience is hopefully an informed group conscience, where the

presentation of background facts combine with current views toward a course

of positive action. While not always announced in emphasis, resulting

decisions reflect an A.A. principle stated in the Twelve Concepts for World

Service (adopted at the 1962 General Service Conference) as Warranty Four of

Concept Twelve: "that all important decisions be reached by discussion,

vote, and whenever possible, by substantial unanimity." The idea in our

Second Tradition of "a loving God as he may express himself in our group

conscience" serves as both a motivation for any proposal a group votes on,

and also becomes a vehicle that carries the results of voted motions.



Voting at the Assemblies of Northern Illinois Area 20 always prove the

vitality of A.A. principles. Our voting and search for an Area 20

consensus is not always completed in one vote, however. A thorough

discussion continues before and after voting a specific motion, as Concept

Five's "right of appeal" allows for the presentation of the minority

opinion. In Alcoholics Anonymous, seen in voting from individual groups

to Districts to Assemblies onward to the General Service Conference, the

minority opinion is well considered. Our procedure of voting has always

provided the opportunity for a reconsideration vote. The final decision on

any proposed motion is an authentic informed group conscience where

minority views blend into the outcome.



Full NIA consideration was give to a particular motion presented at

the 1990 Spring Assembly held in Joliet, resulting in an extraordinary

outcome when the Assembly considered its minority views. NIA Delegate

Phyllis W. discussed the effort of another Area for the General Service

Conference to approve, develop, and publish an A.A. pamphlet on "Unity."

With the Spring Assembly held about one month before that year's Conference,

Phyllis reported that some of the large amounts of her mail discussed the

proposal for the new pamphlet. She shared the ideas, the details, and

the background of the proposal in the morning session during the Delegate's

Report, allowing enough time for a thorough Assembly discussion before

voting its consensus in the afternoon session.



The first Assembly vote demonstrated Area 20 as being very much in

favor of the 1990 Conference looking into developing a pamphlet on A.A.

Unity, with less than 10% voting a minority view. Then, as NIA

Assemblies always proceed, the request was made to hear from the minority

"if it wished to address the issue." Four or five NIA trusted servants

shared their reservations on developing a "Unity" pamphlet and the ideas

are included here to help explain the second vote on the proposal. A past

Delegate reported that of A.A. pamphlets in 1990 distribution, the

subject of A.A. unity was presented and announced over sixteen times.

Whether a "Unity" pamphlet was really needed or would actually be read by

the Fellowship appeared as the strong consideration for the Assembly NOT to

approve its development. Another spoke on the idea that A.A. Unity, one

of the Three Legacies of our Fellowship, could be thought of as a living,

existing, and flexible entity. A new pamphlet on the subject might either

be incomplete or detract from the real forces of unity at work in Alcoholics

Anonymous. Another spoke of A.A.'s Tradition One, where both our common

welfare and personal recovery depend upon A.A. unity. By wisely placing

the word "unity" in the short form of the First Tradition, the remaining

eleven Traditions literally describe the limits and explain the results that

the principles of A.A. unity bring to our Fellowship.



The motion was called for a second vote, and as reported in the

Spring Assembly minutes by the NIA Secretary, "Upon a standing vote it was

evidenced that there was a total turnaround of the opinion of the Assembly

and the question was denied." The second vote unanimously declined

approval for developing a new pamphlet on "Unity." The 1990 General

Service Conference also declined to proceed with the pamphlet's development.

The NIA Spring Assembly, after hearing the views expressed by its minority

vote, fully reconsidered the thoughtful ideas presented and delivered its

informed group conscience, a substantial unanimity and a truly remarkable

consensus.


0 -1 0 0
6249 allan_gengler
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/17/2010 7:03:00 PM


In my little area of Tennessee we ask a person

have six months to chair, but other groups have

no such "requirement." I've never seen an

official AA stance on this and from what I

know about traditions and concepts that probably

wouldn't happen since leadership comes from the

Group Up to GSO and not the other way around.



Interestingly in "Dr. Bob and The Good Oldtimers,"

some of the early meetings at T. Henry's house

weren't even run by alcoholics but my Oxford

Groupers.



That was probably a good thing, considering

the state of the sober few at the time.



--Al



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



There is a lot of AA literature that encourages

AAers to work with others from the start.



Particularly the first chapter of the big book

said that was it imperative to work with others.



On page 159 Bill W says he could leave people

with less than three months sober as they were

trying to work with others.



But remember also that Bill W says in a couple

of places there was freedom of thought and action.

Groups do have the right to be wrong, according

to Bill W.


0 -1 0 0
6250 Arthur S
Re: Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan 1/18/2010 9:25:00 AM


Good grief - is there absolutely no respect on

this web site for AA's Anonymity Traditions?



While AAHistoryLovers is not an AA entity, the

AA members who submit material should practice

at least a token respect for the Traditions.



Arthur



- - - -



From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



Not sure if Social Security #'s should be

posted? What does that have to do with recovery

from alcoholism?



-cm


0 -1 0 0
6251 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan 1/19/2010 4:51:00 PM


Mel B. <melb@buckeye-access.com>

(melb at buckeye-access.com)



Glenn,



I notice there's been some interest in Chauncey Costello, a real oldtimer who

lived in Pontiac, Michigan.  I sent the following comment to jlobdell and

suggested he circulate it.  Perhaps you might consider circulating it to History

Lovers.



Mel Barger



I met Chauncey Costello in late 1950 in an AA meeting at the All Saints

Episcopal Church in Pontiac, Michigan.  With about nine years, he was the oldest

in the group in terms of sobriety.  I had just moved to Pontiac from my

hometown, Norfolk, Nebraska, where I had my last drink on April 15, 1950.  I

stood in awe of Chauncey, as did others in the Stevens Group (so called because

we met in Stevens Hall at the church).

 

He had a small business operating bulldozers, etc., a trade he followed all of

his life.  In later years, when Guest House was opened for Catholic priests in

nearby Lake Orion, he did much of the bulldozing on the grounds of the estate

they used.

 

Chauncey stayed active in AA throughout his life.  He had found AA in 1941 after

a nudge from a friendly judge who had just heard about the program (and had

previously been referring drunks to the Salvation Army!).

 

Chauncey considered himself a blue-collar man and at first felt a bit

uncomfortable with the lawyers and other professional men he met at his first AA

meeting, in Birmingham, Michigan.  But he quickly got into the swim of things

and became highly respected for his character and skills.  And by the time I

moved to Pontiac, there were plenty of blue-collar workers in the AA membership

along with the professional people.

 

I spent many years in Jackson, Mich., and Toledo, Ohio, and saw Chauncey only a

few times until early in this century.  But I always heard about the great work

he was doing, still in the greater Pontiac area.

 

Then a man from New York wanted to interview Chauncey, so I made the

arrangements and we called on him in a Pontiac hospital.

 

Some time later, I saw Chauncey for the last time. Amazingly, it was at an AA

meeting in the All Saints Episcopal Church, the place where I had first met him

in 1950.  He was in a wheelchair, but still mentally alert and interested in the

meeting.

 

Chauncey and his wife Vivian were married at age 15.  They had a long and loving

marriage marred by some difficulties.  Their daughter, for example, was murdered

by her husband.  But they had other children and grandchildren who were close to

them in their old age.

 

I hope you will circulate this account to others.  Thank you very much.



Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio

<melb@accesstoledo.com>

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


0 -1 0 0
6252 Ernest Kurtz
Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/19/2010 8:51:00 PM


Stevec012000,



Abstaining from the other claims in this message, let me at least

approach your query. Please remember that I am now retired, all my N-

G notes given to Brown University and a few other small archives, so I

have to tackle this one from fairly vivid but still aging memory.



In the long recording that Bill did to help Robert Thomsen in his

research, Bill mentions after his long conversation with Dowling, he

”felt for the first time completely cleansed and freed.“ At the time

of my research, I discussed this with several of the then-surviving

old-timers, and they agreed that given the time and circumstances --

remember, the 12 Steps had not yet been formulated and all they had to

go on was Oxford Group practice -- this ”must have been Bill's first

'Fifth Step.'“ ”That is one of the things you should get from a real

Fifth Step.“



Over time and listening to more of Bill and reading more of his

correspondence about the Steps and Father Dowling, I came to agree

with the historical certainty of that understanding.



Hope this helps.



ernie



- - - -



> >From "stevec012000"

> <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>

> (steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

>

> Page 98 in Not God claims that Bill finally

> took his fifth when he met Father Dowling.

> That was several years after his meeting with

> Ebby. I am sure Dr. Kurtz can elaborate on

> that more if he cares. Unless I am reading

> this wrong.


0 -1 0 0
6253 John Barton
Re: Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James 1/19/2010 6:39:00 PM


The Moderator opined in a previous post:

 

"To put it crudely, for Lois and Bill (at least when Bill was sober), you did

not gain salvation by getting down on your knees and accepting Jesus Christ as

your Lord and Savior (there is nothing in the first 164 pages of the Big Book

about that) -- you gained salvation via visions of White Light, experiences of

the Transcendentalist Over-Soul in the wonders of the starry heavens overhead,

and Swedenborgian conversations with angels who were simply the spirits of human

beings who had once lived upon this earth."



Bill wrote in The AA Way of Life (As  Bill Sees It) No. 114:

 

"NO PERSONAL POWER"



"At first, the remedy for my personal difficulties seemed so obvious that I

could not imagine any alcoholic turning the proposition down were it properly

presented to him. Believing so firmly that Christ can do anything, I had the

unconscious conceit to suppose that He would do everything through me -- right

then and in the manner I chose. After six long months, I had to admit that not a

soul had surely laid hold of the Master -- not excepting myself.



"This brought me to the good healthy realization that there were plenty of

situations left in the world over which I had no personal power -- that if I was

so ready to admit that to be the case with alcohol, so I must make the same

admission with respect to much else. I would have to be still and know that He,

not I, was God."



LETTER, 1940 -

 

God Bless


0 -1 0 0
6254 James Blair
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/19/2010 6:56:00 PM


Al wrote

." I've never seen an official AA stance on this and from what I

> know about traditions and concepts that probably wouldn't happen since

> leadership comes from the Group Up to GSO and not the other way around.



The pamphlet "The AA Group" contains all sorts of recommendations for sober

time for various positions as a trusted servant. Obviously these are based

on experienmce but as always each group has the right to be wrong.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
6255 firituallyspit
Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? 1/20/2010 9:33:00 AM


I heard a person share in a meeting that all

early meetings were "Speaker" meetings. I am

not so sure that is accurate. Does anybody have

the low down on these early meeting formats?


0 -1 0 0
6256 Chuck Parkhurst
Henry (Hank) P. Henry (Hank) P. 1/20/2010 6:02:00 AM


Members



I am looking for a confirmation with source

reference, for the date of death for Henry

"Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death

reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the

year 1954.



Many Thanks



In Service with Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst


0 -1 0 0
6257 R. Peter Nixon, MBA
Bob E. (AA #11) Bob E. (AA #11) 1/20/2010 7:03:00 PM


Bob Evans (AA #11) came to the fellowship in

February 1937.  Does anyone know his birthdate,

birthplace, sobriety date, place and date of

death?


0 -1 0 0
6258 jax760
Re: Henry (Hank) P. Henry (Hank) P. 1/20/2010 2:52:00 PM


Hi Chuck,



The information you require can by found in the

New Jersey Herald, January 27, 1954. Although

I do not have a copy I believe it lists the date

as January 18th.



Regards





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst" <ineedpage63@...>

wrote:

>

> Members

>

> I am looking for a confirmation with source

> reference, for the date of death for Henry

> "Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death

> reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the

> year 1954.

>

> Many Thanks

>

> In Service with Gratitude,

>

> Chuck Parkhurst

>


0 -1 0 0
6259 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Henry (Hank) P. Henry (Hank) P. 1/20/2010 8:25:00 AM


During his all too short period of sobriety.



He died after a long illness at Glenwood

Sanitarium in Trenton, New Jersey, on January

18, 1954, at the age of fifty-seven. Lois Wilson

ascribed his death to drinking.



Funeral services were held Thursday, January 22

at Blackwell Memorial Home. Rev. A. Kenneth

Magner of the First Presbyterian Church performed

the service.



At the time of his death he and his wife,

Kathleen Nixon Parkhurst (whom he had remarried

after two failed marriages) were living at

Washington-Crossing Road, Pennington, New

Jersey.



One son, Henry G. Parkhurst, Jr., was living

in Madeira Beach, Florida. A second son Robert

S. Parkhurst, was living in Pennington.



Special thanks to Ron R., of Kentucky, for

information concerning Hank's death and burial.



Above written by Nancy O.



- - - -



In a message dated 1/20/2010 12:29:21 P.M.

Eastern Standard Time, ineedpage63@cox.net writes:



I am looking for a confirmation with source

reference, for the date of death for Henry

"Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death

reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the

year 1954.



Many Thanks



In Service with Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst


0 -1 0 0
6260 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/20/2010 8:16:00 AM


As Ernie points out, Bill W felt he took the fifth step in 1940 or so time

period. Now I do not know when one is to take the fifth step, or if one should

take the fifth step, that is up to the individual. But below is some of Bill W's

address to the Catholic Clergy Council. He places the date as 1938 as when the

steps were written.



Bill W.'s talk to the Catholic Clergy Council:



[Bill W. is saying here that WE ALCOHOLICS BROKE WITH THE OXFORD GROUP BECAUSE

WE DID NOT WANT TO BECOME A PROTESTANT EVANGELICAL SECT which was trying to

"save" the whole world by preaching the evangelical gospel message that the

atoning blood of the divine God-man Christ which he shed on the cross was the

ONLY thing that would save our souls or give us eternal life. G.C.]



Before leaving the subject of the Oxford Groups, perhaps I should specifically

outline why we felt it necessary to part company with them. To begin with, the

climate of their undertaking was not well suited to us alcoholics. They were

aggressively evangelical, they sought to re-vitalize the Christian message in

such a way as to "change the world."



Most of us alcoholics had been subjected to pressure of evangelism and we had

never liked it. The object of saving the world -- when it was still much in

doubt if we could save ourselves -- seemed better left to other people.



[Bill W. is saying here that WE HAD TO BREAK WITH THE OXFORD GROUP'S ATTEMPT TO

MAKE US CARRY OUT OUR MORAL INVENTORY SO QUICKLY -- you could not analyze and

remake an alcoholic's moral character in just a few days or a few weeks -- but

it took us early AA people a while to realize this. G.C.]



By reason of some of its terminology and by the exertion of huge pressure, the

Oxford Group set a moral stride that was too fast, particularly for our newer

alcoholics. They constantly talked of Absolute Purity, Absolute Unselfishness,

Absolute Honesty, and Absolute Love. While sound theology must always have its

absolute values, the Oxford Groups created the feeling that one should arrive

at these destinations in short order, maybe by next Thursday!



Perhaps they didn't mean to create such an impression but that was the effect.



Sometimes their public "witnessing" was of such a character as to cause us to

be shy. They also believe that by "converting" prominent people to their

beliefs, they would hasten the salvation of the many who were less prominent.



This attitude could scarcely appeal to the average drunk since he was anything

but distinguished.



The Oxford Group also had attitudes and practices which added up to a highly

coercive authority. This was exercised by "team" of older members. They would

gather in meditation and receive specific guidance for the life conduct of

newcomers. This guidance could cover all possible situations from the most

trivial to the most serious.



If the directions so obtained were not followed the enforcement machinery began

to operate. It consisted of a sort of coldness and aloofness which made

recalcitrants feel they weren't wanted.



At one time, for example, a team got guidance for me to the effect that I was

no longer to work with alcoholics. This I couldn't accept.



Another example: When I first contacted the Oxford Groups, Catholics were

permitted to attend their meetings because they were strictly

non-denominational.



[Bill W. WARNS HERE THAT IF YOU LINK ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS WITH ANY RELIGIOUS

GROUP, the next thing you know, AA MEMBERS WILL START BEING REQUIRED TO GIVE

MONEY TO THAT RELIGIOUS SECT, and leave the religious group that they were

brought up in. G.C.]



But after a time the Catholic Church forbade its members to attend and the

reason for this seemed a good one. Through the Oxford Group teams Catholic

Church members were actually receiving very specific guidance for their lives;

they were often infused with the idea that their own Church had become rather

horse-and-buggy, and needed to be changed. Guidance was frequently given that

contributions should be made to the Oxford Groups. In a way this amounted to

putting Catholics under a separate ecclesiastical jurisdiction.



At this time there were few Catholics in our own alcoholic groups. Obviously we

could not approach any more Catholics under Oxford Group auspices. Therefore

this was another and the basic reason for the withdrawal of our alcoholic crowd

from the Oxford Groups notwithstanding our great indebtedness to them.



Writing Down The Twelve Steps



Perhaps you would be interested in a further account of the writing down of the

Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.



In the spring of 1938 we had commenced to prepare a book showing the methods of

our then nameless fellowship. We thought there should be a text for this which

could be supported by stories, or case histories, written by some of our

recovered people.



The work proceeded very slowly until some four chapters were done. The content

of these chapters had been the subject of endless discussion and even hot

argument.



The preliminary chapters consisted of my own story, a rationalization of AA for

the benefit of the agnostic, plus descriptions of the alcoholic illness. Even

over this much material the haggling had been so great that I had begun to feel

much more like an umpire than an author.



Arrived then at what is now Chapter Five, it was realized that a specific

program for recovery had to be laid down as a basis for any further progress.

By then I felt pretty frazzled and discouraged.



One night, in a bad mood I must confess, I lay in bed at home considering our

next move. After a time, the idea hit me that we might take our "word of

mouth" program, the one I have already described, and amplify it into several

more steps.



This would make our program perfectly explicit. The necessary ground could be

covered so thoroughly that no rationalizing alcoholic could misunderstand or

wiggle away by that familiar process. We might also be able to hit readers at

a distance, people to whom we could offer no personal help at the moment.

Therefore a more thorough job of codification had to be done. With only this in

mind I began to sketch the new steps on a yellow pad. To my astonishment they

seemed to come very easily, and with incredible rapidity.



Perhaps the writing required no more than twenty or thirty minutes. Seemingly I

had to think little at all. It was only when I came to the end of the writing

that I re-read and counted them. Curiously enough, they numbered twelve and

required almost no editing. They looked surprisingly good -- at least to me.

Of course I felt vastly encouraged.



In the course of this writing, I had considerably changed the order of the

presentation. In our word-of-mouth program, we had reversed mention of God to

the very end. For some reason, unknown to me, I had transposed this to almost

the very beginning.



In my original draft of the Twelve Steps, God was mentioned several times and

only as God. It never occurred to me to qualify this to "God as we understand

Him" as we did later on. Otherwise the Twelve Steps stand today almost exactly

as they were first written.



When these Steps were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed

indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our

agnostic contingent there were loud cries of too much God.



Others objected to an expression which I had included which suggested getting on

one's knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted these objections for months.

But finally did take out my statement about a suitable prayerful posture and I

finally went along with that now tremendously important expression, "God as we

understand Him" -- this expression having been coined, I think, by one of our

former atheist members.



This was indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join AA

who would have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious

training and those of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It

made one's religion the business of the A.A. member himself and not that of his

society.



[WHEN BILL W. DID HIS FIFTH STEP, HE DID IT WITH FATHER ED DOWLING, A JESUIT

PRIEST, WHO THEREFORE INTERPRETED IT IN TERMS OF THE IGNATIAN EXERCISES -- what

this means is, that Bill W. had by this point totally grown away from the Oxford

Group's idea that we had to do our confession, restitution, and so on -- AND

start practicing moral virtues with almost absolute perfection -- within a few

days or weeks! Bill W. was now understanding moral growth in the way that Father

Ed Dowling and the Ignatian exercises did, as a life-long process in which it

took years to ferret out all of the moral failings hidden down in our

characters. Jesuit priests regularly go off on retreats, once a year sometimes,

to go through the Ignatian exercises once again. G.C.]



That AA's Twelve Steps have since been in such high esteem by the Church, that

members of the Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention to the similarity

between them and the Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for our great wonder and

gratitude indeed.


0 -1 0 0
6261 stevec012000
Re: Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? 1/20/2010 7:15:00 PM


The Big Book mentions on pages 159-160:



[Bill W. and Dr. Bob had gotten Bill Dotson

sober in June 1935. AA in Akron grew slowly

but steadily during the months that followed.]



"A year and six months later these three had suc-

ceeded with seven more. Seeing much of each other,

scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not

shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in

their release, and constantly thinking how they might

present their discovery to some newcomer. In addi-

tion to these casual get-togethers, it became customary

to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be at-

tended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual

way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability,

the prime object was to provide a time and place

where new people might bring their problems."



"Outsiders became interested. One man and his wife

placed their large home at the disposal of this

strangely assorted crowd. This couple has since be-

come so fascinated that they have dedicated their

home to the word. Many a distracted wife has visited

this house to find loving and understanding compan-

ionship among women who knew her problem, to

hear from the lips of their husbands what had hap-

pened to them, to be advised how her own wayward

mate might be hospitalized and approached when

next he stumbled."


0 -1 0 0
6262 bent_christensen5
Re: Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? 1/20/2010 1:37:00 PM


Good question. It has been discussed before,

and you'll be able to find one good answer

among many in message #5300.



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5300



How early AA meetings were held in Akron and Cleveland



Shortly before his death in 1984, Bob E.



[This was Robert Evans, see list of First 226 Members

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc ]



shared ... the following recollection of what

AA was like when he first joined:



<http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>



I never led meetings (neither did Dr. Bob) or

talked into a microphone. Nobody led our

meetings in the very early days. We all just

sat around in a circle. After the opening

prayer and a short text from the Bible, we had

quiet time, silently praying for guidance

about what to say. Then each person in turn

said something, asking for any help he wanted,

bringing up anything that was troubling him or

just whatever was on his mind. After everyone

was through, there were announcements and we

held hands and said the Lord's Prayer ....



For the first five years we met in someone's

home every night ....



In that first group, Dr. Bob selected the readings

and made all the appointments and all the major

decisions. (I was the first secretary of the

group and the following year became chairman.)

Everyone had to make a complete surrender to

join in the first place, and so we had no

reservations; we worked the whole program,

100 percent ....



We did not tell our drinking histories at

the meetings back then. We did not need to.

A man's sponsor and Dr. Bob knew the details.

Frankly, we did not think it was anybody

else's business. We were anonymous and so was

our life. Besides, we already knew how to

drink. What we wanted to learn was how to get

sober and stay sober.



Bill Wilson was in favor of having at least

fifty percent of an AA member's talk at a

meeting consist of "qualifying" or telling the

story of how he became an alcoholic. Bill

himself had a warm, friendly disposition, and

this idea of his did attract people and enable

the movement to grow to a size where it had

helped thousands of people all over the world.

For that we must be grateful.



But when the "qualifying" business first

began, it took some getting used to on our

part. I remember one time when we were

meeting at King School; some people came in

from Cleveland, and most of the qualifying

they did was really very bad. They clapped and

made a lot of noise. To us it seemed strange

and offensive. Gradually we opened up under

Bill's persuasive influence. But we still did

not care for it when people would get carried

away by their own voice and make their stories

too sensational and repulsive.


0 -1 0 0
6263 James Blair
Re: Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? 1/20/2010 2:40:00 PM


From James Blair, Beverly, and Ben Humphreys



- - - -



From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



I can only speak for Quebec.



All AA meetings up to the early sixties were

closed meetings but we did have open meetings

which were in fact public meetings.



These meeting were organized with social

services, medicine, courts and AA. They were

held in a large hall on the first Sunday night

of each month and they would draw from 75 to

300 persons. They were well advertised on

radio and in newspapers.



Representatives of different agencies would

speak about the impact of alcoholism on families

and individuals. The AA speaker would go last.



It was at these meeting that the practice of

stating "my name is Joe B. and I'm an alcoholic"

got started in our province. At the closed

meetings people did not do that.



Jim



- - - -



From: bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com)



I go to a meeting in Tucson, Arizona.



Matt l. has 58 years of sobriety. He was one

of the fortunate to be helped by Dr. Silkworth

for his alcoholism. He told his story at

Founders Day here and stated that all of the

first meetings were speaker meetings. He also

said that men back then wore suits, shirts and

ties. He still dresses up to this day.



Beverly



- - - -



From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>

(blhump272 at sctv.coop)



From 1975 on my experience has been the same as

now. Not all speaker meetings.



I am like you, in talking to old timers from

1940 on they were not all speaker meetings but

open and closed meetings and speaker meetings

were on the agenda.



Ben H.


0 -1 0 0
6264 Hugh D. Hyatt
Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs 1/22/2010 3:50:00 PM


It said in Message #6199 from LD Pierce

<eztone@hotmail.com> (eztone at hotmail.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6199



"In reading this post and a couple of others

I decided to do some reading tonite on the

Swedenborgian religion and their movment ....



Their religion even included 12 steps to heaven!!"



- - - -



Swedenborg's theological writings include a single occurrence of the

phrase "twelve steps:"



> They [angels with whom Swedenborg spoke] picture wisdom, they said,

> as a wonderfully elegant palace with twelve steps leading up to it.

> No one gets to the first step except with the Lord's help and by

> union with him, and for all of us, the ascent depends on that union.

> The higher we climb, the more clearly we realize that no one is wise

> on her or his own, but only from the Lord. We also realize that

> relative to what we do not know, what we do know is like a droplet

> compared to a vast lake. The twelve steps to the palace of wisdom

> mean whatever is good united to what is true and whatever is true

> united to what is good.



This is from his book /Divine Providence/, paragraph #36.



As a lifelong Swedenborgian and recovering alcoholic myself, I would say

that the closest thing that Swedenborg has to A.A.'s twelve steps are

the four steps of repentance described in paragraph #530 of his work

/True Christian Religion./ After explaining the necessity of

repentance, Swedenborg says:



> The question therefore is, How ought man to repent? And

> the reply is, Actually; that is to say, he must examine himself,

> recognize and acknowledge his sins, pray to the Lord, and begin a

> new life.



A number of years ago, I corresponded with a Swedenborgian minister who

had interviewed Lois Wilson. He asked specifically about the influence

of Swedenborgianism on A.A. and Al-Anon. As I recall, her response was

completely non-committal, saying that even if some particular religion

/had/ had significant influence, she couldn't very well say so, could she?



--

Hugh H.

Willow Grove, PA



The love of one's country is a splendid thing.

But why should love stop at the border.

-- Pablo Casals


0 -1 0 0
6265 J. Lobdell
RE: Bob E. (AA #11) Bob E. (AA #11) 1/22/2010 3:52:00 PM


He was born in Akron June 19 1904 and died there

in February 1977.



The Silkworth site gives the following material

and references on him:



"Bob E. - wealthy banker, joined A.A. February

1937, made AA address books, member Akron's

wealthiest families [C 132] [D 101, 116-19,

122-23, 142, 146, 152, 156-57, 176, 217, 221-23]

[N 53]"



I haven't checked the references.



The list of sober members provided for Frank

Amos shows him with 16 months sobriety at a

time when Dr. Bob had 33 and Bill D. had 32,

thus in March 1938. This would put Bob E's

sobriety to November 1936, before he "came in"

in February 1937.



His father William H. E. was President of the

Bank.



- - - -



From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana):



The list of the First 226 Members of the

Akron, Ohio AA Group

http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc



has Robert E. with an X by his name,

which seems to mean that he was counted

as one of the first 27 members.



His address is given as 657 East Ave., Akron,

Ohio. In those days in Akron, would that have

been a fancy address, the sort of place a

wealthy banker would live? That would be one

way of checking to see whether that claim

was true.


0 -1 0 0
6266 James Bliss
The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 1/22/2010 6:30:00 PM


I was reminded of a story which I have heard

in AA about someone in Alaska who found a

Big Book in the bottom of a rain barrel and

got sober reading it.



Is there any historical fact behind this story?



Thanks,



Jim


0 -1 0 0
6267 Jay Pees
Re: Henry (Hank) P. Henry (Hank) P. 1/21/2010 3:55:00 PM


And his funeral is listed as January 22.



On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 2:52 PM, jax760

<jax760@yahoo.com> wrote:



> Hi Chuck,

>

> The information you require can by found in the

> New Jersey Herald, January 27, 1954. Although

> I do not have a copy I believe it lists the date

> as January 18th.

>

> Regards

>

>

> "Chuck Parkhurst" <ineedpage63@...> wrote:

> >

> > I am looking for a confirmation with source

> > reference, for the date of death for Henry

> > "Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death

> > reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the

> > year 1954.


0 -1 0 0
6268 Edward
Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 1/23/2010 6:03:00 AM


This story is quoted in _As Bill Sees It_ p. 245

- the reference given is to _AA Comes Of Age_

pp. 82-83 ...



Y'all's in service

Ted G.



- - - -



Also from From: Jay Pees <racewayjay@gmail.com>



- - - -



In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss

<james.bliss@...> wrote:

>

> I was reminded of a story which I have heard

> in AA about someone in Alaska who found a

> Big Book in the bottom of a rain barrel and

> got sober reading it.

>

> Is there any historical fact behind this story?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Jim

>


0 -1 0 0
6269 Bill Lash
Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/23/2010 1:45:00 PM


Maybe I'm missing something here but please indulge me a few more thought

about this. I feel this is an important point for all of us so I just want

to make clear what I see being said here so that there is no

misunderstanding. What it says on page 98 & 99 of Ernie's wonderful book

"Not God" is as follows:



"Not since his earliest days in the Oxford Group had Wilson felt himself in

the loving presence of such a receptive listener. Then, Bill had unburdened

himself especially to Ebby. But it was only now, as this evening with

Father Dowling wore on, that the man who had written A.A.'s Fifth Step came

to feel that he himself was finally "taking his Fifth." He told Dowling not

only what he had done and had left undone - he went on to share with his new

sponsor the thoughts and feelings behind those actions and omissions."



And then in "Bill's Story" in the Big Book on page 13 Bill writes:



"At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment

seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens.

"There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then I understood Him, to do

with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and

direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that

without Him I was lost. I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to

have my new-found Friend take them away, root and branch. I have not had a

drink since.

"My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and

deficiencies."



Ernie is stating above in his own book that Bill did his FIRST 5th Step when

he first got sober ("Not since his earliest days in the Oxford Group...Bill

had unburdened himself especially to Ebby" & then in the Big Book while Bill

was still in Towns Hospital "I fully acquainted him with my problems and

deficiencies", both of these descriptions are of the Oxford Group's version

of a 5th Step), and then Bill did ANOTHER 5th Step with Fr. Dowling. The

only way you can say that Bill's sharing with Fr. Dowling was Bill's "first"

5th Step was because when Bill shared with Ebby when he got sober in 1938

there were no 12 Steps yet, so in 1938 they wouldn't have called it a 5th

Step. Nevertheless, using today's AA language, Bill DID do his FIRST 5th

Step when he first got sober, NOT only after finally meeting Fr. Dowling.



Also, Ernie mentions below about Bill's sharing his 5th Step with Fr.

Dowling that:



"Bill felt for the first time completely cleansed and freed".



Bill ALSO describes in the Big Book how he felt from his original 5th Step

with Ebby (along with the other Oxford Group work that he did, which later

became the 12 Steps) that:



"...the effect was electric. There was a sense of victory, followed by such

a peace and serenity as I had never known. There was utter confidence. I

felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew

through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me

was sudden and profound."



Both 5th Steps had a large effect on Bill. After the one he did with Ebby,

Bill never drank again!



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill


0 -1 0 0
6270 Edward
Re: Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings 1/23/2010 6:06:00 AM


There is a recording of Paul K., an early member

who attended meetings with Dr. Bob at King School,

sharing about this experience many years later

from the podium -- it is available for free at:



http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1850



Y'all's in service,



Ted G.


0 -1 0 0
6271 J. Lobdell
Re: Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11) Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11) 1/23/2010 1:43:00 PM


The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984, does not

agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their article

are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which was begun

March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the Record of

Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he would still have

been the longest-sober member of A.A.



But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD Feb 1938)

was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober member, which

suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.



Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death date in

the AAA publication.



- - - -



Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262

"Re: Early meeting format"):



"SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,

Bob E. shared ... the following recollection

of what AA was like when he first joined"



IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:

<http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>



SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"



AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"


0 -1 0 0
6272 Bill Lash
Bill W. Died Today (Jan. 24) in 1971 Bill W. Died Today (Jan. 24) in 1971 1/24/2010 2:06:00 PM


In the summer 1966 two A.A. members from the White Plains NY area drove to

Stepping Stones & had an appointment with Bill W. One of these members,

John S., went in & talked with Bill W. for about a half hour while the

other memebr, Bob C., waited outside. Bob C. was a sponsee of John S., John

S. was a reporter for the New York Times & Bill W. had asked him to come.

What Bill wanted was to write his own obituary because he knew that if

someone else tried to do it they may not get it right. This all happened

five years BEFORE Bill finally died on this date (January 24) in 1971. Also

at that time in 1966, Bill W. gave John permission to break Bill's anonymity

in the article that John put out at the time of Bill's death. Bill also

asked John not to say anything about the pre-written obituary until Bill

died. That is why the original New York Times obituary (below) had no

reporter's name, because John S. really didn't write it, Bill did. All that

John added to the article was the particulars around Bill's death. The

story about Bill's obituary has been left unknown until a few years ago when

Jack H. from Scottsdale AZ had a conversation with Bob C., who was living in

Mesa AZ at the time & who just recently passed away at age 82 with over 50

years sober. This same Bob C. was the man who waited outside for John S. &

Bill W. when the original obituary was written in 1966.



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill





Bill W., 75, Dies; Co-founder Of Alcoholics Anonymous

Jan. 27, 1971 - New York Times News Service



NEW YORK — William Griffith Wilson died late Sunday night and, with the

announcement of his death, was revealed to have been the Bill W. who

cofounded Alcoholics Anonymous in l935. He was 75.



The retired Wall Street securities analyst had expected to die or to go

insane as a hopeless drunk 36 years ago but – after what he called a

dramatic spiritual experience – sobered up and stayed sober.



He leaves a program of recovery as a legacy to 47,000 acknowledged

alcoholics in 15,000 A.A. groups throughout the United States and in 18

other countries.



Wife Aided Work



Mr. Wilson, whose twangy voice and economy of words reflected his New

England origin, died of pneumonia and cardiac complication a few hours after

he had been flown by private plane to the Miami Heart Institute in Miami

Beach from his home in Bedford Hills, NY.



At his bedside was his wife, Lois, who had remained by him during his years

as a “falling down” drunk and who later had worked at his side to aid other

alcoholics. She is a founder of the Al-Anon and Alateen groups, which deal

with the fears and insecurity suffered by spouses and children of problem

drinkers.



Mr. Wilson last spoke publicly last July 5 in a three minute talk he

delivered after struggling from a wheelchair to the lectern at the closing

session of A.A.'s 35th anniversary international convention in Miami,

attended by 11,000 persons. He had been admitted three days earlier to the

Miami Heart Institute, his emphysema complicated by pneumonia.



Last Oct. 10, he was under hospital care for acute emphysema and was unable

for the first time to attend the A.A. banquet at which his “last-drink

anniversary” has been celebrated annually. His greetings were delivered by

his wife to the 2,200 A.A. members and guests at the New York Hilton.



Mr. Wilson gave permission to break his A.A. anonymity upon his death in a

signed statement in 1966. The role of Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith as the other

founder of the worldwide fellowship was disclosed publicly when the Akron

Ohio, surgeon died of cancer in 1950.



As Bill W., Mr. Wilson shared what be termed his “experience, strength and

hope” in hundreds of talks and writings, but in turn – mindful that he

himself was “just another guy named Bill who can’t handle booze” – he heeded

the counsel of fellow alcoholics, and declined a salary for his work in

behalf of the fellowship.



He supported himself, and later his wife, on royalties from four A.A.

books — “Alcoholics Anonymous,” “The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,”

“Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age” and “The A.A. Way of Life.”



Explained Anonymity



In fathering the doctrine that members should not reveal their A.A.

affiliation at the public level, Bill W. had explained that “anonymity isn’t

just something to save us from alcoholic shame and stigma; its deeper

purpose is to keep those fool egos of ours from running hog wild after money

and fame at A.A,’s expense.”



He cited the example of a nationally known radio personality who wrote an

autobiography. disclosing his A.A membership and then spent the royalties

crawling the pubs on West 52nd Street.”



Frankness Impressed



In the program’s early years, Mrs. Wilson worked in a department store to

augment the family income.



Over the years, the gaunt, 6-foot cofounder’s wavy brown hair turned wispy

white, and his step slowed. In 1962 he retired from active administration of

A.A. affairs and returned to part-time activity in Wall Street. He continued

to speak in New York at dinner meeting celebrating the anniversaries of his

recovery.



Mr. Wilson shunned oratory and euphemisms and impressed listeners with the

simplicity and frankness of his A.A. “story”:



In his native East Dorset, VT., where he was born Nov. 26,1895, and where be

attended a two-room elementary school, he recalled, “I was tall and gawky

and I felt pretty bad about it because the smarter kids could push me

around. I remember being very depressed for a year or more, then I developed

a fierce resolve to win – to be a No. 1 man.”



Strength Limited



Bill, whose physical strength and coordination were limited, was goaded by a

deep sense of inferiority, yet became captain of his high school baseball

team. He learned to play the violin well enough to lead the school

orchestra.



He majored in engineering at Norwich University for three years, then

enrolled in officers training school when the United States entered World

War I. He married Lois Burnham, a Brooklyn physician’s daughter he had met

on vacation in Manchester, Vt.



At Army camp In New Bedford, Mass,, 2nd Lt. Wilson of the 66th Coast

Artillery and fellow officers were entertained by patriotic hostesses, and

Bill W. was handed his first drink, a Bronx cocktail. Gone, soon, was his

sense of inferiority.



Wife Concerned



“In those Roaring Twenties,” he remembered, “I was drinking to dream great

dreams of greater power.” His wife became increasingly concerned, but he

assured her that “men of genius conceive their best projects when drunk.”



In the crash of 1929, Mr. Wilson’s funds melted away, but his

self-confidence failed to drop. “When men were leaping to their deaths from

the towers of high finance,” he noted, “I was disgusted and refused to jump.

I went back to the bar. I said, and I believed, ‘that I can build this up

once more.’ But I didn’t. My alcoholic obsession had already condemned me. I

became a hanger-on in Wall Street.”



Numbing doses of bathtub gin, bootleg whisky and New Jersey applejack became

Bill W.’s panacea for all his problems.



Visited by Companion



Late in 1934, he was visited by an old barroom companion, Ebby T., who

disclosed that he had attained freedom from a drinking compulsion with help

from the First Century Christian Fellowship (now Moral Rearmament); a

movement founded in England by the late Dr. Frank N. D. Buchman and often

called the Oxford Group. Bill W. was deeply impressed and was desperate, but

he said he had not yet reached that level of degradation below which he was

unwilling to descend. He felt he had one more prolonged drunk left in him.



Sick, depressed and clutching a bottle of beer, Bill W. staggered a month

later into Towns Hospital, an upper Manhattan institution for treatment of

alcoholism and drug addiction. Dr William Duncan Silkworth, his friend, put

him to bed.



Mr. Wilson recalled then what. Ebby T. had told him: “You admit you are

licked; you get honest with yourself… you pray to whatever God you think

there is, even as an experiment.” Bill W. found himself crying out:



“If there is a God, let him show himself, I am ready to do anything,

anything!”



“Suddenly,” he related. “the room lit up with a great white light. I was

caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to describe. It seemed

that a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me

that I was a free man.”



Recovering slowly and fired with enthusiasm, Mr. Wilson envisioned a chain

reaction among drunks, one carrying the message of recovery to the next.

Emphasizing at first his spiritual regeneration, and working closely with

Oxford Groupers, he struggled for months to “sober up the world,” but got

almost nowhere.



“Look Bill,” Dr. Silkworth cautioned, “you are preaching at those alkies.

You are talking about the Oxford precepts of absolute honesty, purity,

unselfishness and love. Give them the medical business, and give it to ‘em

hard, about the obsession that condemns them to drink. That – coming from

one alcoholic to another – may crack those tough egos deep down.”



Mr. Wilson thereafter concentrated on the basic philosophy that alcoholism

is a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession – an incurable though

arrestable – illness of body., mind and spirit. Much later, the disease

concept of alcoholism was accepted by a committee of the American Medical

Association and by the World Health Organization.



Still dry six months after emerging from the hospital, Mr. Wilson went to

Akron to participate in a stock proxy fight. He lost, and was about to lose

another bout as he paced outside a bar in the lobby of the Mayflower Hotel.

Panicky, he groped for inner strength and remembered that. he had thus far

stayed sober trying to help other alcoholics.



Through Oxford Group channels that night, he gained an introduction to Dr.

Smith, a surgeon and fellow Vermonter who had vainly sought medical cures

and religious help for his compulsive drinking.



Bill W. discussed with the doctor his former drinking pattern and his

eventual release from compulsion.



“Bill was the first living human with whom I had ever talked who

intelligently discussed my problem from actual experience,” Dr. Bob, as he

became known, said later. “He talked my language.”


0 -1 0 0
6273 Frank Nyikos
AA book study group in Milford AA book study group in Milford 1/24/2010 9:42:00 AM


The Milford Study Meeting held on Thursday nights in Milford, Indiana has been

going on continuously now for over four and a half years (we were hoping for 6

months at best in the beginning).



We are currently on our seventh book and as you can see below time is not the

element:



**Little Red Book - 8/11/05 - 6/29/06 (we had copies of the current edition, but

also copies of the original 1946 edition and the 1949 edition, the last one

where Dr. Bob had any input)

**Changed By Grace - 7/6/06 - 3/2/07

**Emmet Fox, Sermon on the Mount - 3/29/07 - 11/15/09

**Ernie Kurtz, Shame & Guilt - 11/29/07 1/17/08

**Father Ralph Pfau, Sobriety & Beyond - 1/24/08 - 9/4/08

**God & Spirituality - 9/11/08 - 10/22/09

**William James, Varieties of Religious Experience - 10/29/09 - present



People have been driving from an hour away or more, even through the snow and

ice of a northern Indiana winter. We do not call it an AA group or meeting

(since others are invited) nor is it formally registered with General Service

Office so that the question of what books we can or cannot read becomes a dead

letter. However, we DO send contributions regularly to GSO as the Milford,

Indiana Study Meeting. This has been acceptable since contributions come from AA

people.



When AA newcomers show up we do suggest that they go to a regular AA meeting

which goes over the basics but still encourage them to attend here for extra

information if they are so inclined.



Most of us have around twenty or more years in the program. None of the people

who have continued to attend regularly have 'slipped,' reverted to drinking

again, or diminished in the least their dedications, attendance, and continuing

work in AA. Although we have had a few newcomers who showed up for a few weeks

and then disappeared we have no idea how AA itself affected them or if they did

stop drinking since we had no further contact, leaving us unknowing what if any

effect may have happened. As mentioned before, those who continue to attend are

still deeply involved in sponsorship, conference planning, committees and other

activities of the sort over the years. We do NOT see this study group as a

substitute for participation in the regular AA fellowship, but merely as a

SUPPLEMENT. We also abide by group conscience in all matters.



At the beginning, back in 2005, every member of our group gave suggestions about

books that might be worthwhile reading. So now, when we approach the end of one

book, we look at that list and just take a group conscience on which one to read

next. We read through these books sentence by sentence and then discuss each

part as much as we feel is necessary, stopping wherever and then continuing

where we left off so we don't just speed through them.



If you are not sure what would be a good list of books to consider, another

place where you could find one, would be Charlie Bishop's list of Fifty Books

Tracing AA's History at http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html



I am posting this because I recently learned from John S. in Fort Wayne,

Indiana, who comes to Milford every week, that our idea here at Milford seems to

be spreading to other places.



John writes the "John Barleycorn" A.A. column -- good stuff -- for a couple of

examples see "The Right Side of the Page" http://hindsfoot.org/barright.html and

"Whack-A-Mole" http://hindsfoot.org/barmole.html



Anyway, John told me the other day:

______________________________



"One of the men I sponsor named Tommy R. told others in his home group about

Milford and they decided to start a similar group north of the Fort. My son John

and some of his friends in Wisconsin are talking about starting a book study

group there too. There's so much knowledge and wisdom recorded in books since

the printing press was created and it's a real shame that most of it is going

undigested because of modern electronic media. Perhaps I'm resistant to change,

but it seems to me the more television and electronic games that are played, the

dumber our civilization is getting? I cannot change such a trend but

nevertheless choose to keep on reading."

______________________________



Perhaps there are other parts of the world where AA people might be interested

in trying something like this.



If so, there are many other items that have come up which we have solved

successfully and we would be happy to share should anyone have questions. You

can contact at the following email address: fenyikos@hoosierlink.net


0 -1 0 0
6274 mdingle76
Re: Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11) Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11) 1/23/2010 11:37:00 PM


I like to speak for the "All Addicts Anonymous" people for I work for 24

Communications — the publishing group of AAA — which originally put out 24

Magazine. The article that J. Lobell refers to was written for 24 Magazine in

September 1976 (6 months before the book "Dr. Bob and the Good oldtimers" was on

the launching pad.) Yes, J. Lobell is right — the interview that we recorded of

Bob E. (used in the Sept 1976, 24 Magazine) was later used in the "Dr. Bob"

book. (It is believed that we still have the tape recording of this interview

and that there was much more said by Bob E. not used in the article — although,

I haven't bumped into the tape in our archives yet.)



The Sept 1976 article said: "Bob E. is the senior living member of Alcoholics

Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the eleventh man to join the fellowship.

He still lives today in Akron, Ohio, as he did when he came into the Akron group

— the first Alcoholics Anonymous group — back in 1936. Not long ago he shared

with us the following recollections of what AA was like in the days when he came

in . . . "



Now, in 1990, 24 Communications tried to publish several 12 step books through

Harper (one was called "Bill Wilson and the 12 Steps," another one was "Dr. Bob

and the 12 Steps," etc., etc.) Well, the "Dr. Bob and the 12 steps" book had

featured the Bob E. article with a few minor changes — on of them being the

death date of Bob E. as 1984. It said: "Bob E., until his death in 1984, was the

senior living member of Alcoholics Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the

eleventh man to join the fellowship. . ."



Does anybody else have any ideas or information about this?



Matt D.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:

>

> The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984, does not

agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their article

are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which was begun

March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the Record of

Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he would still have

been the longest-sober member of A.A.

>

> But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD Feb

1938) was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober member,

which suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.

>

> Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death date in

the AAA publication.

>

> - - - -

>

> Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262

> "Re: Early meeting format"):

>

> "SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,

> Bob E. shared ... the following recollection

> of what AA was like when he first joined"

>

> IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:

> <http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>

>

> SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"

>

> AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"

>


0 -1 0 0
6275 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings 1/24/2010 6:00:00 AM


This is a really good tape. The 1st hand

experience of early Akron (Dr Bob) AA from this

man who had 46 years when the tape was recorded

in 1988.



The meeting was a family meeting since the

disease was a family disease and never closed

at any set time. There was no prayer at the end

of the meeting with members holding hands and

saying a prayer,rather they all went into

silent prayer and meditation individually.



He explains working the steps and sponsorship

as it was originally done. His explanation of

the history of AA is as he remembers it.



Great praise for Dr Bob,and Anne.



Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, PA



- - - -



In a message dated 1/23/2010 elg3_79@yahoo.com

writes:



There is a recording of Paul K., an early member

who attended meetings with Dr. Bob at King School,

sharing about this experience many years later

from the podium -- it is available for free at:



http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1850



Y'all's in service,



Ted G.


0 -1 0 0
6276 Harriet Dodd
Having employers read the chapter To Employers Having employers read the chapter To Employers 1/25/2010 10:25:00 AM


Dear History Lovers



Would you please be able to give me some

information on the chapter "To Employers."



I would like to know, was it a procedure to

take the Big Book into the work place, and ask

employers to read the book (or that particular

chapter)?



Did they recommend that employers use the Big

Book, or how was it known about?



I couldnt find anything specific on the group

blogs.



Thanks very much,



Harriet



- - - -



From the moderator: Harriet is asking if we

have any stories of AA people taking copies

of the Big Book to employers during the early

days, to ask if they had any alcoholic

employees they could work with, or whatever.

It seems like I may have heard of that, but I

can't remember where.



Does anyone in the group know how Mrs. Marty

Mann recommended approaching businesses

where it was known that they had problems

with alcoholism among their employees?



It seems to me that when the EAP movement

started later on (Employee Assistance Progam),

that they found that it was easier to get

employees actually to come in, if they just

put it (at the public level) in terms of general

assistance with any kind of problem. But in

fact they found that in the majority of the

cases, alcohol and/or drugs were the cause of

all the other problems (marital, financial,

absenteeism, etc.).



I know we have members of the AAHistoryLovers

who have led EAP's, who could tell us more

about that.



G.C.


0 -1 0 0
6277 bbthumpthump
Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/25/2010 9:17:00 AM


I read on Wikipedia that Bill had his White

Light Spiritual Experience while under the

effects of Charles Towns' Belladonna Cure,

which evokes hallucinations in the patient.



What can you tell me about this?



- - - -



From the moderator:



Belladonna was part of the Towns' treatment,

used to help keep the patient from going into

major DT's. If Bill W. was given belladonna on

this, his fourth visit to Towns (and in fact,

we don't really know the answer to this for

sure, based on my reading),



would that much of the belladonna still have been

in his system at the time of his vision of

light?



Could belladonna have given this sort of white

light experience as a hallucination? The

descriptions of belladonna intoxication seem

to be saying that it was like the hallucinations

accompanying the DT's, only a little milder,

and what you experience when you're having DT's

is most definitely NOT Bill's report of a

positive and fulfilling experience of relief

and freedom.



All in all, the descriptions I have read of

what belladonna does to you don't sound

anything remotely like Bill W.'s white light

experience:



Belladonna produces dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision,

tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry mouth

and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion,

hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The plant's deadly symptoms are

caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's ability

to regulate non-volitional/subconscious activities such as sweating, breathing,

and heart rate. Its anticholinergic properties will cause in humans the

disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning.



That sure doesn't sound like Bill W.'s

mountain top experience to me!



But have any of our members ever had experience

with taking belladonna, perhaps in their

misspent youths? What actually happens when

you take the stuff?



Also be sure and see Bill Lash's excellent and

very thorough study of all this in Message #1493

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1493



Bill Lash describes all the stuff that was involved

in the treatment, etc., etc.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
6278 diazeztone
Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter 1/25/2010 2:45:00 PM


Interesting ---- is Clyde B. ("Freeman Carpenter")

still alive?



(Clyde has email and website selling that

book and others: www.freemancarpenter.com )



LD Pierce

aabibliography.com



- - - -



"J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:

>

> My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto

2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941?

He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think,

in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober

before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober).



There is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946

and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER

(under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.

>


0 -1 0 0
6279 jax760
Re: Bob E. (AA #11) Bob E. (AA #11) 1/25/2010 2:45:00 PM


As someone had pointed out previously there is a discrepancy in Bob's sober date

detailed below in this excerpt from the manuscript the Golden Road of Devotion,

Chapter Four "And We Began To Count Noses"



"We return to Akron to find Bob Evans. According to The Amos Roster, Bob had

been dry sixteen months, dating his entry as October of 1936. Bob was a wealthy

banker and is mentioned extensively in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers (Note 64)

Bob seems to vividly recall his entry in the fellowship, according to his taped

or transcribed interview that the author of DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers

refers to, as February of 1937 (Note 65) The difference between the two

accounts, Evans' and Dr. Bob's, as to when Bob Evans arrived on the scene is

frustrating and certainly leaves us with yet another unanswered question."



"DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers states that "Bob E." (Robert Evans) came into AA

in February of 1937(Note 66) Unfortunately, this statement is not given a

reference source (Note 67), although later it is referenced to the 1954

recording or transcript frequently cited and appears to be the recollections of

Bob Evans himself. (Note 68) For now we will defer to DR. BOB and the Good

Oldtimers and place Bob Evans on our list in 1937."



"It is our position, that The Amos Roster as now introduced, is the most

accurate source of information now available on the early Akron members. Being

written by Dr. Bob in or before February of 1938, should rightly be considered

more authoritative then sources previously used including the memory of various

individuals who were sources for, or the authors of, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes

Of Age, DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers and Pass It On."



"It is also interesting to note that The Amos Roster, as we have named it, or

Dr. Bob's list is not referenced in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, leading this

writer to believe that the document (The Amos Roster) was not known or made

available to its author. (Note 69)"



Note 64 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 101,116-119,122

123,142,146,152,156-157,176,217,221-223.



Note 65 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 353, Sources, see 116-119 citing C,

T, 1954 (B). See p.101, Feb 37 Sobriety Date



Note 66 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 101



Note 67 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 352, Sources, see 101 lines 10-11 are

not referenced or cited.



Note 68 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 353, Sources, see 116-119 citing C,

T, 1954 (B).



Note 69 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; pages 128-135.



The "Amos Roster" refers to Dr Bob's hand written list of members provided to

Frank Amos in February of 1938. (See Below)



The Amos Report



Many of us are familiar with the events following the "counting of noses" which

took place in Akron during the second week of October 1937. (Note 1) Bill was

introduced to Willard Richardson, one of John D. Rockefeller's closest

associates, by his brother-in-law Dr. Leonard Strong. After several meetings

with Rockefeller's advisors, Frank Amos made a visit to Akron in mid February of

1938 to get a first hand look at Dr. Bob and the group of recovered drunks. His

account of that visit, which was titled "THE NOTES ON AKRON, OHIO SURVEY by

FRANK AMOS" is well documented in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers (Note 2) and to

a lesser extent in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age (Note 3) and Pass It On

(Note 4)



The account of Amos's Akron visit given in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, as

well as the other publications, omits one very important detail, that a list of

the early Akron members was attached to The Amos Report. The likely reason for

this key omission is because the list was not attached or included with The Amos

Report filed in the GSO archives. A copy of this list, which was written by Dr.

Bob on his office stationary, has recently been provided to the Archivist at

GSO.



This list of the pioneering Akron members, which we have dubbed "The Amos

Roster", is described below in an excerpt from a copy of The Amos Report (Note

5) It may prove to be the first written list of members ever produced by one of

our co-founders.



"Alcoholic Group

There are now some fifty men, and, I believe, two women former alcoholics, all

considered practically incurable by physicians, who have been reformed and so

far have remained teetotalers. A list of some of them is attached giving their

business, the length in months they have been "dry", the period in years they

were drinking, and their present age."





Notes:



1. Chapter IV, The Golden Road of Devotion

2. DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, pages 128-134

3. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, pages 148-150

4. Pass It On, pages 181-187

5. 2/23/1938 (B)



Finally,



Many of us are guilty of perpetuating misinformation when we state that Joe Q

Alcoholic was AA # "xyz"



After Bill Dotson there are precious few definitive dates or information on who

got sober and when. The Amos Roster is an excellent source of info and must be

considered "authoritative" but also has some nagging inconsistencies. We know

they were counting members in New York and Akron seperately. For some, they

factored in a slip into their sober time, for others they reset the clock. Still

others appear to have been deleted after they relapsed and din't come back (i.e

Phil Smith, Walter Bray, Harold Grisinger)The research I have done on the First

Forty which I believe has better sources and citations then previous works

posted on the internet shows that Bob Evans was the 23rd person to join the

fellowship. These people below all appear to have "joined the fellowship"

(meaning were trying to get or stay sober in the Oxford Group or with the help

of Dr. Bob) before him.





1 Bill Wilson Dec 34 NY

2 Bob Smith May 35 Akron

3 Bill Dotson June 35 Akron

4 Ernie Galbraith July 35 Akron

5 Henry Parkhurst Sept 35 NJ

6 Walter Bray Sept 35 Akron

7 Phil Smith Oct 35 Akron

8 John Mayo Nov 35 MD

9 Silas Bent Nov 35 CT

10 Harold Grisinger Jan 36 Akron

11 Paul Stanley Jan 36 Akron

12 Tom Lucas Feb 36 Akron

13 Myron Williams Apr 36 NY

14 Joseph Doppler Apr 36 Cleveland

15 Robert Oviatt June 36 Cleveland

16 Harry Latta July 36 Akron

17 James Holmes Sept 36 Akron

18 Alfred Smith Jan 37 Akron

19 Alvin Borden Jan 37 Akron

20 Howard Searl Jan 37 Akron

21 William Ruddell Feb 37 NJ

22 Douglas Delanoy Feb 37 NJ

23 Robert Evans Feb 37 Akron



List is from the manuscript "The Golden Road of Devotion"...devoted History

Lovers might wish to compare these names to the Akron 226 List and or 100 list

"PIONEERS BY DATE OF SOBRIETY".



God Bless



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mdingle76" <mdingle76@...> wrote:

>

> I like to speak for the "All Addicts Anonymous" people for I work for 24

Communications — the publishing group of AAA — which originally put out 24

Magazine. The article that J. Lobell refers to was written for 24 Magazine in

September 1976 (6 months before the book "Dr. Bob and the Good oldtimers" was on

the launching pad.) Yes, J. Lobell is right — the interview that we recorded of

Bob E. (used in the Sept 1976, 24 Magazine) was later used in the "Dr. Bob"

book. (It is believed that we still have the tape recording of this interview

and that there was much more said by Bob E. not used in the article — although,

I haven't bumped into the tape in our archives yet.)

>

> The Sept 1976 article said: "Bob E. is the senior living member of Alcoholics

Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the eleventh man to join the fellowship.

He still lives today in Akron, Ohio, as he did when he came into the Akron group

— the first Alcoholics Anonymous group — back in 1936. Not long ago he shared

with us the following recollections of what AA was like in the days when he came

in . . . "

>

> Now, in 1990, 24 Communications tried to publish several 12 step books through

Harper (one was called "Bill Wilson and the 12 Steps," another one was "Dr. Bob

and the 12 Steps," etc., etc.) Well, the "Dr. Bob and the 12 steps" book had

featured the Bob E. article with a few minor changes — on of them being the

death date of Bob E. as 1984. It said: "Bob E., until his death in 1984, was the

senior living member of Alcoholics Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the

eleventh man to join the fellowship. . ."

>

> Does anybody else have any ideas or information about this?

>

> Matt D.

>

>

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@> wrote:

> >

> > The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984, does

not agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their

article are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which was

begun March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the

Record of Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he would

still have been the longest-sober member of A.A.

> >

> > But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD Feb

1938) was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober member,

which suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.

> >

> > Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death date

in the AAA publication.

> >

> > - - - -

> >

> > Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262

> > "Re: Early meeting format"):

> >

> > "SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,

> > Bob E. shared ... the following recollection

> > of what AA was like when he first joined"

> >

> > IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:

> > <http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>

> >

> > SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"

> >

> > AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"

> >

>


0 -1 0 0
6280 Charles Knapp
Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers Having employers read the chapter To Employers 1/25/2010 5:56:00 PM


Hello all,



A reprint of Chapter 10 was published in pamphlet

form in the early 1940's and distrubied by the

Alcoholic Foundation.

 

"What About the Alcoholic Employee?" was the

title of the pamphlet. I am sure these were

passed out to a few companies where there were

recovering alcoholic employees.



Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
6281 jax760
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/25/2010 6:04:00 PM


I suspect this thought crossed Bill's mind on one or two occasions.



From his 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society:



In December, 1934, I appeared at Towns Hospital, New York. My old

friend, Dr. William Silkworth, shook his head. Soon free of sedation and

alcohol, I felt horribly depressed. My friend Ebby turned up. Though glad to see

him, I shrank a little. I feared evangelism, but nothing of the sort happened.



After some small talk, I again asked him for his neat little formula for

recovery. Quietly and sanely, without the slightest pressure, he told me. Then

he left. Lying there in conflict, I dropped into the blackest depression I had

ever known. Momentarily my prideful obstinacy was crushed. I cried out, "Now I'm

ready to do anything — anything to receive what my friend Ebby has." Though I

certainly didn't really expect anything, I did make this frantic appeal: "If

there be a God, will He show Himself!"



The result was instant, electric, beyond description. The place seemed to light

up, blinding white. I knew only ecstasy and seemed on a mountain. A great wind

blew, enveloping and penetrating me. To me, it was not of air, but of Spirit.

Blazing, there came the tremendous thought "You are a free man." Then the

ecstasy subsided. Still on the bed, I now found myself in a new world of

consciousness which was suffused by a Presence. One with the universe, a great

peace stole over me. I thought, "So this is the God of the preachers, this is

the Great Reality."



But soon my so-called reason returned, my modern education took over. I thought

I must be crazy, and I became terribly frightened. Dr. Silkworth, a medical

saint if ever there was one, came in to hear my trembling account of this

phenomenon.



After questioning me carefully, he assured me that I was not mad, that I had

perhaps undergone a psychic experience which might solve my problem. Skeptical

man of science though he then was, this was most kind and astute. If he had

said, "hallucination," I might now be dead. To him I shall ever be eternally

grateful.



God Bless



- - - -



From the moderator:



O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that

point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little

bit of belladonna, it would have worn off.



And Dr. Silkworth, who had been giving belladonna

to patients for some time, either knew in this

case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna

in his system, or that this was totally different

from any kind of belladonna-induced mental

aberrations.



So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a

"psychic experience" or religious experience

of some sort, and something which could not

possibly have been a drug-induced reaction

in this particular case.



Drug-induced stuff is totally different from

authentic life-changing religious experience,

in my observation. You don't give scared people

real permanent courage by giving them the

temporary illusion of courage from too much

alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact

from sending them on LSD trips, or electro-

convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries

their brains.



Bill W.'s life genuinely changed at that point,

and changed permanently, and did NOT require

continuing on daily doses of belladonna in

order to keep him sober.



So I still don't see any clinical evidence that

you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by

one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic

LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that

sort. It doesn't work that way.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)



- - - -



"bbthumpthump" <steve@...> wrote:

>

> I read on Wikipedia that Bill had his White

> Light Spiritual Experience while under the

> effects of Charles Towns' Belladonna Cure,

> which evokes hallucinations in the patient.

>

> What can you tell me about this?

>

> - - - -

>

> From the moderator:

>

> Belladonna was part of the Towns' treatment,

> used to help keep the patient from going into

> major DT's. If Bill W. was given belladonna on

> this, his fourth visit to Towns (and in fact,

> we don't really know the answer to this for

> sure, based on my reading),

>

> would that much of the belladonna still have been

> in his system at the time of his vision of

> light?

>

> Could belladonna have given this sort of white

> light experience as a hallucination? The

> descriptions of belladonna intoxication seem

> to be saying that it was like the hallucinations

> accompanying the DT's, only a little milder,

> and what you experience when you're having DT's

> is most definitely NOT Bill's report of a

> positive and fulfilling experience of relief

> and freedom.

>

> All in all, the descriptions I have read of

> what belladonna does to you don't sound

> anything remotely like Bill W.'s white light

> experience:

>

> Belladonna produces dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision,

tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry mouth

and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion,

hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The plant's deadly symptoms are

caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's ability

to regulate non-volitional/subconscious activities such as sweating, breathing,

and heart rate. Its anticholinergic properties will cause in humans the

disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning.

>

> That sure doesn't sound like Bill W.'s

> mountain top experience to me!

>

> But have any of our members ever had experience

> with taking belladonna, perhaps in their

> misspent youths? What actually happens when

> you take the stuff?

>

> Also be sure and see Bill Lash's excellent and

> very thorough study of all this in Message #1493

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1493

>

> Bill Lash describes all the stuff that was involved

> in the treatment, etc., etc.

>

> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

>


0 -1 0 0
6282 BobR
2010 AA National Archives Workshop -- dates? 2010 AA National Archives Workshop -- dates? 1/24/2010 7:40:00 PM


Anyone know the dates for this year's National Archives Workshop? I know it's in

Macon, Georgia and many, many months away but still it would be nice to be able

to plan for it in advance.


0 -1 0 0
6283 diazeztone
Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA 1/29/2010 6:29:00 PM


I have a friend who is looking for speaker

tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California.

I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is

looking for a big book study he did in

1992-1993.



Anybody have this or know where to find??



LD Pierce

www.aabibliography.com

eztone at hotmail

___________________________________



P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around

September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army

Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober.

There were 12 tapes in the set.



I have found one by him with 8 tapes and

10 years sober, but that is not the one I want.

I prefer the one where he is very humble at

5 years.


0 -1 0 0
6284 sally.kelly1941
Alcoholics Anonymous history time line Alcoholics Anonymous history time line 1/26/2010 3:23:00 AM


Is there an existing print or online time line

of AA history? (i.e. a chronological, labeled

list of important dates, such as "Bill's sobriety

date," Bob's sobriety date," "Bill"s step five,"

"12 steps developed," "Alcoholics Anonymous

published," etc., etc.?



- - - -



From GC the moderator: two excellent AA timelines

can be found online on the internet.



One is put up by the New York GSO:



http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/



It is not quite as detailed as the second one

below, but has some very interesting items on

it. It is a very nice piece of work.



The other is the work of AAHistoryLovers member

Arthur S., who is an extremely careful and

knowledgeable historian, respected all over the

world for his precision and accuracy.



http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html



There are other timelines, which our AAHL folks

will be able to add to this list. But both of

these timelines are extremely well done, and are

very reliable.



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
6285 James Bliss
Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA 1/29/2010 10:32:00 PM


There is a set for sale at:



http://bigbookawakening.com/





- - - -



diazeztone wrote:

>

> I have a friend who is looking for speaker

> tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California.

> I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is

> looking for a big book study he did in

> 1992-1993.

>

> Anybody have this or know where to find??

>

> LD Pierce

> www.aabibliography.com

> eztone at hotmail

> ___________________________________

>

> P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around

> September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army

> Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober.

> There were 12 tapes in the set.

>

> I have found one by him with 8 tapes and

> 10 years sober, but that is not the one I want.

> I prefer the one where he is very humble at

> 5 years.

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
6286 Archives Historie
AA National Archives Workshop -- Sept. 23-26, 2010 -- Macon AA National Archives Workshop -- Sept. 23-26, 2010 -- Macon 1/29/2010 10:59:00 PM


The NAW will be held September 23rd through the

26th.  The hotel will be the Marriott City Center

in Macon, Georgia.  No further details as of yet.

 

In Love and service,

 

David in Daytona


0 -1 0 0
6287 corafinch
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/27/2010 8:20:00 AM


Ther is a new book out, The Harvard Psychedelic Club by Don Lattin, with a

little information about Bill Wilson that I've not seen elsewhere. It takes up

only a couple of pages in the book, so I just read those pages standing is the

aisle at Barnes and Noble and didn't get the book. Apparently Huston Smith

interviewed Bill and the person who gave him the LSD, a few months after Bill's

first trip. Bill told Smith that the experience was a dead ringer for the famous

white light experience.



I'm not sure how much significance should be attached to that remark. Bill was

presumably trying to give Gerald Heard and Huston Smith something they would be

interested to hear, and that motivation at that particular time probably shaped

his recollection.



Nevertheless, there a a few things Glenn said that I would tend to disagree

with, and I'll intersperse them:

>

> From the moderator:

>

> O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that

> point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little

> bit of belladonna, it would have worn off.



From what I've read, alcoholics were given true "sedatives" only for the first

day or so, to guard against the most dangerous manifestations of withdrawal.

The belladonna mixture itself was continued longer, possibly for the entire 4 or

5 day hospitalization. Dr. Lambert (see Bill Pittman, AA the Way It Began or by

its other title, The Roots of AA) specified that the belladonna mixture had to

be given in doses sufficient to produce flushed skin and dilated pupils.

Otherwise, according to Lambert, it would not bring about the desired result of

a "cessation in the desire" for alcohol.



The traditional mnemonic for atropine toxicity is "blind as a bat, dry as a

bone, red as a beet, mad as a hatter." In addition, the patients were given

large doses of vegetable and mineral laxatives, enough to produce "bilious

stools," which would have caused some degree of electrolyte and fluid depletion.

Maybe Lambert thought he was preventing "wet brain." Some doctors thought that

way at the time, reasoning that DTs had something to do with cerebral edema.



>

> And Dr. Silkworth, who had been giving belladonna

> to patients for some time, either knew in this

> case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna

> in his system, or that this was totally different

> from any kind of belladonna-induced mental

> aberrations.

>

> So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a

> "psychic experience" or religious experience

> of some sort, and something which could not

> possibly have been a drug-induced reaction

> in this particular case.



In view of Dr. Lambert's remarks about the cessation of desire for alcohol, how

do you know that what happened to Bill wasn't just what Dr. Silkworth was hoping

for? Maybe it was a rare but positive development. If you were Dr. Silkworth,

would you have just said, "Forget it, it's the mad as a hatter part, you'll get

over it?"



Pupillary dilatation can certainly cause visual "haloes" or the sensation of

white light. Of course, it only happened after Bill prayed for an epiphany, and

so cannot have been entirely attributable to the drug. Similarly, the "rushing

wind" effect is often recalled as part of epiphanies and it has been suggested

that the autonomic effects of the ecstasy increase cardiac output and make

people momentarily "hear" their own pulse. This could also have been potentiated

by the increased cardiac output caused by the belladonna.



No, I'm not trying to explain it all away, but it might not be right to say

that there was no connection. If you block a person's parasympathetic nervous

system, as the atropine family of drugs does, the unopposed sympathetic nervous

system can produce some strange effects.



>

> Drug-induced stuff is totally different from

> authentic life-changing religious experience,

> in my observation. You don't give scared people

> real permanent courage by giving them the

> temporary illusion of courage from too much

> alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact

> from sending them on LSD trips, or electro-

> convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries

> their brains.

>

> Bill W.'s life genuinely changed at that point,

> and changed permanently, and did NOT require

> continuing on daily doses of belladonna in

> order to keep him sober.

>

> So I still don't see any clinical evidence that

> you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by

> one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic

> LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that

> sort. It doesn't work that way.



I agree one hundred percent. Part of the lesson, though, is that things that

"work" can be our worst enemies, just because they "work." Xanax and the other

tranquilizers work. Almost any downer will, and there a are people who swear by

amphetamines (for adult ADD, of course). Ibogaine (a newer type of hallucinogen)

may even work. Just because Bill used something and it "worked" doesn't mean

that it was the reason he stayed sober. There are no free lunches.

-Cora



>


0 -1 0 0
6288 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/30/2010 3:19:00 PM


I finally found what I was looking for -- some eyewitness accounts by people who

had taken belladonna, describing what happened and what it felt like.



Belladonna has the same psychoactive components as jimsonweed (Datura

stramonium) -- atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.



When we are told that a substance causes "hallucinations," we tend to

automatically assume today that some of these are going to be pleasant

hallucinations, such as people sometimes get from LSD and magic mushrooms, where

some people get wonderful feelings of the divinity of the whole universe, and

being one with the universe, and that sort of thing. We might imagine that --

along with Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and Marshmallow Clouds -- that maybe,

just maybe, a person high on something like this might have Bill Wilson's kind

of experience.



But in fact, all you seem to get from belladonna is a relatively "bad trip," not

a "good trip." There tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish quality to

the hallucinations and delusions. That is why belladonna (which is easily

available, we've had it growing wild in our back yard) has never become popular

with the druggies. In the U.S., it isn't even illegal, on the theory that no one

would ever find this a satisfying recreational drug.

______________________________



At any rate, you can read to your heart's content in the wide selection of first

hand accounts written by people who have taken belladonna, which are given in:



http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Belladonna.html



Some of them which I read were:

 

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9392

100% Visual Hallucinations, Belladonna, by parXal



http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=35717.html

A Trip I'll Never Forget, Belladonna,

by Astral Perceptionz



http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=18736.html

The Manson Family killed on this plant,

Atropa belladonna, by Kevin



http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=30718.html

Wandering Delirium, Belladonna (roots), by yamamushi

______________________________



THE ONLY ONE I FOUND WHICH DESCRIBED MYSTICAL

EXPERIENCES or religious experiences in any

sense of the word was the following one --



but what the person took ALSO included magic

mushrooms -- in this case the variety known as

liberty cap (Psilocybe semilanceata, a

psychedelic mushroom that contains the

psychoactive compound psilocybin)



-- SO THIS IS THE EXCEPTION THAT PROVES THE RULE.



Belladonna by itself does NOT seem to produce

the kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences

which some people have reported after taking

LSD or magic mushrooms or peyote.



But for the details, read this person's first

hand account of mixing belladonna with magic

mushrooms:



http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=48411.html

Sensory Illusion Destroyed

Mushrooms, Belladonna & Brugmansia, by The Craic

______________________________



LET'S COMPARE THE PURE BELLADONNA EXPERIENCES

WHICH WE HAVE READ ABOVE, TO BILL WILSON'S ACCOUNT

OF HIS OWN EXPERIENCE:



Big Book p. 14:



"There was a sense of victory, followed by such a

peace and serenity as I had never know.  There was

utter confidence.  I felt lifted up, as though the great

clean wind of a mountain top blew through and

through.  God comes to most men gradually, but His

impact on me was sudden and profound."



"For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend,

the doctor, to ask if I were still sane.  He listened in

wonder as I talked."



"Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has

happened to you I don't understand.  But you had

better hang on to it.  Anything is better than the way

you were." The good doctor now sees many men who

have such experiences.  He knows that they are real."



Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pp. 63-64

(Bill gave an almost identical account in his

1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL

Message 6281):



"All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show

Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a

great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to

describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that

a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I

was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a

time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and

through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself,

'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I

thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right.

Things are all right with God and His world."



"Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education crawled

back and said to me, 'You are halluncinating. You had better get the doctor.'

Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill, you

are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event here.

I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do release

people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what had

actually happened."



"More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me a

copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather

difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover."

______________________________



In this case, Lecture 3 "The Reality of the Unseen," and parts of Lectures 4-5

"The Religion of Healthy-Mindedness," would have given Bill W. examples of other

people who had had similar experiences.



Near the beginning of Lecture 4, James quoted from R. M. Bucke's book Cosmic

Consciousness, for example, and later on he quotes from R. W. Trine, In Tune

with the Infinite.



Mel Barger has often emphasized the importance of Bucke and Trine for

understanding Bill Wilson's religious experiences.



James also frequently refers (in this part of his book) to the New England

Transcendentalists (Emerson, Thoreau, and so on, and God as the Over-Soul).



James also makes a number of references in this part of his book to the poety of

Walt Whitman (a later outgrowth of the Transcendentalist movement).



All of these are useful for understanding Bill W's spirituality.

______________________________



But the most important observation to make is, to my mind, that Bill Wilson's

experience was very, very different from the sort of nightmarish trip that

people seem to have when they take belladonna. It wasn't the same thing at all.


0 -1 0 0
6289 Shakey1aa@aol.com
AA National Archives Workshop website AA National Archives Workshop website 1/29/2010 8:53:00 PM


As soon as fuller info is available for the

AA National Archives Workshop in Macon, it

should be posted on this website:



http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Hardcore Group


0 -1 0 0
6290 denise200305
Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 1/27/2010 4:13:00 PM


This is a question about putting up banners in

AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,

and 12 Concepts written on them.



I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.



We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote

was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our

group.



An old timer and very knowledgeable member

advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers

(e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in

12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).



He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as

saying that he was against the banners.



I have never read or heard this before. I have

dozens of books and AA info on AA history and

Bill W, and have been unable to find any info

on this.



So was wondering if you may have anything on

the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts

on their use (if he ever said anything about

them) as I am very interested in finding out

if this was so.



Really appreciate your time

Thanking you

Kind Regards Denise

Member Brisbane Traditions Group

Australia


0 -1 0 0
6291 Ben Humphreys
Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 1/24/2010 6:20:00 PM


I think it was one of Bill W.'s tall tales.

It was supposedly frozen in ice .... one of the

old Big Books with the red and yellow covers.



We should collect some of these old AA jokes

and tall tales.



Ben H.


0 -1 0 0
6292 Stockholm Fellowship
Travel Discounts to EURYPAA Travel Discounts to EURYPAA 1/27/2010 8:35:00 AM


EURYPAA = All-Europe Young People in A.A.



Discounts for travel to EURYPAA are available

on Continental Airlines, American Airlines and

most One World partner airlines. Visit



http://www.eurypaa.org/2010/index.php?p=4 for details.



The 1st annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. conference will be hosted by

Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. Hundreds of AAs from across Europe - and

around the world - are coming together in fellowship and celebration of sobriety

through A.A. Don't miss it!



More information at www.EURYPAA.org/2010


0 -1 0 0
6293 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers Having employers read the chapter To Employers 1/25/2010 12:29:00 PM


From Bailey and Mel Barger



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



Pretty close to thirty years ago, I loaned

the book with its chapter noted to my supervisors

who were having problems with an alcoholic

employee.



They gave me the book back after a while.

Subsequently they laid the employee off.

He was hired by another company, and laid off

there, on his way back to the local area he

drove his car into the support for an overpass

and was killed.



- - - -



From: Mel B. <melb@buckeye-access.com>

(melb at buckeye-access.com)



Hi Harriet,



It seems to me that I read once that the

employers section was printed as a separate

pamphlet. Though short on cash, the AA

pioneers considered this to be so important

that they reprinted it in this form as an

inexpensive way to reach employers.



Mel Barger, Toledo

melb@accesstoledo.com

(melb at accesstoledo.com)


0 -1 0 0
6294 secondles
Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers Having employers read the chapter To Employers 1/25/2010 7:15:00 PM


There is a somewhat related method for dealing with employers which does not

exactly fit with this question but nonetheless is a support system for

alcoholics regarding employment.



There has been a State/Federal program called Vocational Rehabilitation which

operates in all States which began in 1922. I was involved with this program

professionaly throughout my career. Seven years of that career I carried a case

load as a Counselor in the State of Maryland (1955-1962), and the next 25 years

in executive positions administuring that program with the Federal Office

(OSERS-RSA). It is a program which serves a broad range of disabilities,

including alcoholism, provided the disability constitutes a Vocational problem.

It is not a "welfare" type of program and sometimes a client may be asked to

participate in certain costs associated with his rehabilitation plan. Mostly

those services are free or handled cooperatively with other agencies. Job

Placement (dealing with employers) is one of the services. It respects

confidentiality just like other professions.



It is customary when a Counselor has a case concerning alcoholism,(and it might

start with a referral from an employer who would like to keep an employee who is

being or causing a problem) that the question of job adjustment needs to be

discussed. Perhaps the Counselor might discuss the idea of AA with the Client.

Perhaps the employer might benefit if the Counselor interceded and offered some

insight (with the client's permission) about the client's positive aspects such

as underutilized skills, etc.



I don't want to discuss the whole program which is always individualized (and I

personally didn't understand the AA-12-Steps program back then) but I mention

the VR program here to point out that sometimes it is not simply reading the Big

Book, or something related, which is useful. A hands-on, compassionate,

professional helper might be needed...perhaps with the person, or with the

employer, or both.



Les C.

Colorado Springs, CO


0 -1 0 0
6295 Robert Stonebraker
AA timeline AA timeline 1/30/2010 1:23:00 AM


Sally K. asked about AA timelines:



For a 57-page AA timeline, you can go to:



http://www.4dgroups.org



Click "Downloads" - click Documents - scroll

down to "Original 57 Page Timeline" (2004)

. . plus, you will find the same updated

(2007) timeline on the next page.



I keep this timeline next to my PC at all times.



Bob S.



- - - -



From the moderator:



This timeline



http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=fileinfo&\

id=9




seems to be another version of Arthur S.'s

excellent timeline mentioned in the previous

message.



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
6296 J. Lobdell
Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter 1/26/2010 10:00:00 AM


From Jared Lobdell and Shakey Mike.



LD Pierce (aabibliography.com) had asked,



"is Clyde B. ('Freeman Carpenter') still alive?"



- - - -



From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>



Still alive -- and on Facebook (full real name)

-- and will be 90 on March 12.



- - - -



From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)



Clyde is still with us. I saw him about 2 months

ago at a Unity pitch given by the Southeastern

Pennsylvania Intergroup Assn, SEPIA, of whom I

am a past Chairperson. I approached him about

helping out in a meet and greet sometime in the

near future for the Archives Committee. Of course

he said he would if he could.



He originally got sober in the Boston Area, before

moving to Bucks county outside Philadelphia. He

has volunteered for a long time at Livengrin, a

rehab on the old estate of Mercedes Mc C., an

Oscar winning actress( All the King's Men).



Because of the recent interest in him,and I hope

it is not because of his length of sobriety

only, I will give him a call tomorrow if for

nothing more than one alcoholic talking to

another.



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Hardcore Group



- - - -



Original messages from LD Pierce and J. Lobdell:



> From: eztone@hotmail.com

> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010

> Subject: Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter

>

> Interesting ---- is Clyde B. ("Freeman Carpenter")

> still alive?

>

> (Clyde has email and website selling that

> book and others: www.freemancarpenter.com )

>

> LD Pierce

> aabibliography.com

>

> - - - -

>

> "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:

> >

> > My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto

2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941?

He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think,

in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober

before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober).

>

> There is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20

1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER

(under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.

>

>


0 -1 0 0
6297 Charlie C
Roy L. Smith, Emergency Rations Roy L. Smith, Emergency Rations 1/26/2010 7:14:00 AM


Not long ago I got some of the reprint "can openers" available from the Akron AA

Archives website. Interesting stuff, including the meditation booklet by Roy L.

Smith, "Emergency Rations." I have found some biographical info on him, but am

curious still to find out what, if any, contact he might have had with AA. As a

Methodist preacher and writer in a time when many of their publications were

popular in AA circles, e.g. the "Upper Room," it might have been just from that

general connection, but I was wondering if anyone knew of more direct contact

between him and AA folks?



Charlie C.IM = route20guy

"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us

To see oursels as others see us!

It would frae monie a blunder free us

an foolish notion...."



To a Louse, Rob't Burns


0 -1 0 0
6298 jaynebirch55
Use of sweets Use of sweets 1/26/2010 8:38:00 AM


Hello friends,



Jayne from Barking Big Book study here. The group has asked if you have any

information on the doctor mentioned on page 133 of the Big Book who advised that

the use of sweets was often helpful.



God bless



Jayne



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator, see Big Book pp. 133-134:



"ALCOHOLICS SHOULD CONSTANTLY HAVE CHOCOLATE AVAILABLE"



"One of the many doctors who had the opportunity

of reading this book in manuscript form told us that

the use of sweets was often helpful, of course depend-

ing upon a doctor's advice. He thought all alcoholics

should constantly have chocolate available for its

quick energy value at times of fatigue. He added that

occasionally in the night a vague craving arose which

would be satisfied by candy. Many of us have noticed

a tendency to eat sweets and have found this practice

beneficial."


0 -1 0 0
6299 Lawrence Willoughby
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/31/2010 3:01:00 PM


In my 35 years of clinical experience, with one of my specialties being the

treatment of adolescents who are alcoholics and drug addicts, I have known at

least a thousand cases of people who have experimented with using belladonna to

get high.



Belladonna to the best of my experiences with patients has NEVER produced

anything like what Bill Wilson reported happening to him at Towns Hospital.



It is always bad.



The attempt to claim that Bill Wilson's experience was a hallucination induced

by belladonna is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Where is this coming

from?



Larry



========================================

Lawrence Willoughby, thirty-five years in the

clinical specialties areas of substance abuse,

trauma, PTSD including combat. Has been a

clinical supervisor, CEO of a partial program,

MSW, LCSW, DCSW.

========================================



Message: No. 6288 from Glenn Chesnut

<glennccc@sbcglobal.net>



I finally found what I was looking for -- some

eyewitness accounts by people who had taken

belladonna, describing what happened and what

it felt like



.... all you seem to get from belladonna is a

relatively "bad trip," not a "good trip." There

tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish

quality to the hallucinations and delusions.



Belladonna by itself does NOT ... produce the

kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences

which some people have reported after taking LSD

or magic mushrooms or peyote.



You can read to your heart's content in the wide

selection of first hand accounts written by people

who have taken belladonna, which are given in:



http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Belladonna.html



COMPARE THIS TO BILL WILSON'S ACCOUNT OF HIS

OWN VERY POSITIVE AND UPLIFTING EXPERIENCE:



Big Book p. 14:



"There was a sense of victory, followed by such a

peace and serenity as I had never know. There was

utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great

clean wind of a mountain top blew through and

through. God comes to most men gradually, but His

impact on me was sudden and profound."



"For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend,

the doctor, to ask if I were still sane. He listened in

wonder as I talked."



"Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has

happened to you I don't understand. But you had

better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way

you were." The good doctor now sees many men who

have such experiences. He knows that they are real."



Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pp. 63-64

(Bill gave an almost identical account in his

1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL

Message 6281):



"All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show

Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a

great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to

describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that

a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I

was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a

time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and

through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself,

'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I

thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right.

Things are all right with God and His world."



"Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education crawled

back and said to me, 'You are hallucinating. You had better get the doctor.'

Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill, you

are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event here.

I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do release

people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what had

actually happened."



"More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me a

copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather

difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover."


0 -1 0 0
6300 Tom Hickcox
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/30/2010 5:10:00 PM


Didn't Bill's grandfather have a spiritual

experience of some sort at the granite mill

up on the mountain?



Tommy



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator:



That story is told in Francis Hartigan's book,

Bill W.; A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous

Cofounder Bill Wilson, page 11.



Francis Hartigan was Lois Wilson's secretary.

William C. ("Willie") Wilson was Bill W.'s

paternal grandfather.



==========================================

"William Wilson may have preferred inn keeping to quarrying, but inn keeping is

seldom the right occupation for a hard-drinking man. His attempts to control his

drinking led him to try Temperance pledges and the services of revival-tent

preachers. Then, in a desperate state one Sunday morning, he climbed to the top

of Mount Aeolus. There, after beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding

light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was a conversion experience that left

him feeling so transformed that he practically ran down the mountain and into

town."



"When he reached the East Dorset Congregational Church, which is across the

street from the Wilson House, the Sunday service was in progress. Bill's

grandfather stormed into the church and demanded that the minister get down from

the pulpit. Then, taking his place, he proceeded to relate his experience to the

shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather never drank again. He was to live

another eight years, sober."

==========================================


0 -1 0 0
6301 Shakey1aa@aol.com
When Love Is Not Enough -- Lois Wilson Story -- April 25, 2010 When Love Is Not Enough -- Lois Wilson Story -- April 25, 2010 2/3/2010 3:31:00 AM


The movie about Lois Wilson -- When Love Is

Not Enough -- airs in the U.S. on Sunday,

April 25 at 9 P.M. EST in a Hallmark Hall of

Fame Presentation on the CBS Network.



http://winona-ryder.org/2010/01/when-love-is-not-enough-release-date/?utm_source\

=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter




This is based on Bill B's book.



Yours in Service.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Hardcore group


0 -1 0 0
6302 diazeztone
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/2/2010 10:39:00 PM


My opinion -- that is all this is -- if you are

a traditions group you would certainly have the

traditions and concepts on the wall.



LD Pierce



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"denise200305" <honan@...> wrote:

>

> This is a question about putting up banners in

> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,

> and 12 Concepts written on them.

>

> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.

>

> We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote

> was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our

> group.

>

> An old timer and very knowledgeable member

> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers

> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in

> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).

>

> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as

> saying that he was against the banners.

>

> I have never read or heard this before. I have

> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and

> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info

> on this.

>

> So was wondering if you may have anything on

> the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts

> on their use (if he ever said anything about

> them) as I am very interested in finding out

> if this was so.

>

> Really appreciate your time

> Thanking you

> Kind Regards Denise

> Member Brisbane Traditions Group

> Australia

>


0 -1 0 0
6303 aalogsdon
U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 1/31/2010 12:07:00 PM


I have a small photo taken in 1981 showing four

people -- Brinkley Smithers, William Bolger (the

Postmaster), Lois Wilson, and a fourth unidentified

man -- along with a U.S. first-class postage

stamp with the words on it: "Alcoholism. You Can

Beat It!" Just the words, no picture on the stamp.



Who is the fourth man in the photo?



Where can I obtain a copy of this photo?



Thanks.


0 -1 0 0
6304 Charles Knapp
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/3/2010 8:20:00 PM


I had a copy of that same photo at one time.

Somehow the photo became corrupt and I lost it.

I found it on the Internet a few years ago and

have never seen it since. This was the caption

that was with the photo:



Alcoholism Stamp Issued



First Day Stamp issued, featuring Alcoholism,

August 19, 1981. In celebration four important

individuals, in promoting awareness of Alcoholism

as public health problem pictured:



Walter J. Murphy, Lois Wilson, widow of the

co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous; William

F. Bolger, Postmaster Genera; and R. Brinkley

Smithers; Board member of the NCA and Financier

of the Modern Alcoholism Movement.



Couldn't find anything on Walter J Murphy other

than he became the Executive Director of NCADD,

but not sure of his role in 1981.



Hope this helps



Charles from Wisconsin



- - - -



From the original question:



The stamp in question is a U.S. first-class postage

stamp with the words on it: "Alcoholism. You Can

Beat It!" Just the words, no picture on the stamp.


0 -1 0 0
6305 sally.kelly1941
AA history book from GSO? AA history book from GSO? 2/1/2010 9:38:00 AM


Thanks to all who directed me to time lines

for AA history. There is one submitted by a

Michael S to the Fourth Dimension Meetings web

site that appears to be the Arthur S timeline

with updates.



AA HISTORY BOOK: 1950 TO THE PRESENT



It follows the progress, through GSC meetings,

of a planned AA history book, covering the period

since 1950, being prepared by GSO. The last

mention on that time line of that effort is at

the 45th GSC meeting in 1995.



Who knows what became of that effort?


0 -1 0 0
6306 M.J. Johnson
Re: AA timeline, Arthur''s 2005-to-present update coming soon AA timeline, Arthur''s 2005-to-present update coming soon 2/1/2010 11:35:00 AM


Have there been any updates to Arthur S.'s

timeline since 2007?



- - - -



ARTHUR RESPONDS:



I'll be doing a major update this summer for

2005 to 2010 and offer it to members of AAHL

via email.



Cheers



Arthur


0 -1 0 0
6307 tomper87
Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 2/2/2010 12:33:00 PM


In "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" this story is referred to as a legend.

Legend is defined as a nonhistorical or unverifiable story handed down by

tradition from earlier times and popularly accepted as historical. Consequently

there is probably no basis in fact for this story. Not that we can't benefit

from these "wonderful legends".


0 -1 0 0
6308 Tom Pasek
Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 1/31/2010 5:32:00 PM


I can't make any suggestions on the "Tall Tales"

part, but The Grapevine has recently come out

with a new book entitled "A Rabbit Walks into

This Bar.."



It's a great collection of alkie jokes.



Tom Pasek, CEO

Shaggy Dog Solutions, LLC

tom@shaggyd.com

2521 Innisfree Drive

Bakersfield, California 93309

www.shaggyd.com



- - - -



From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>

(blhump272 at sctv.coop)



I will submit an old joke I heard about 35 years ago. Most group members had

this long litany introducing themselves when they would speak up in a meeting.



The sponsor brought in a new comer who was not quite through drinking.



Sponsor says," I am John Doe and through the grace of God and AA, I have not

found it necessary to take a drink to day". He goes on with his sharing.



Now the newcomer takes the floor with, " I am Hasent Been Sober and by the grace

of God and AA I haven't found it necessary to take a drink today.



His Sponsor whispers to him, "Why you s.o.b. you were drinking this morning.



And the newcomer says, "Yes but it was not necessary."


0 -1 0 0
6309 Jon Markle
Re: Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/3/2010 7:07:00 PM


Tradition 4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other

groups or A.A. as a whole.



Let the group conscious decide what it wants to do. That's the only answer that

makes sense here, or the only one that really matters. It doesn't even matter

whether or not Bill W had anything to say about it or not. It would have only

been his personal opinion, which carries as much weight as mine or any other

member on this subject.



Groups are always querying a "higher authority" to get a "ruling" on such

things. There isn't any such authority in AA. We learned that a long long

time ago. (hopefully)



So, do what you want to. As long as it does not impact AA as a whole or another

group, it's really no one's business but that particular group.



- - - -



On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:39 PM, diazeztone wrote:



> My opinion -- that is all this is -- if you are

> a traditions group you would certainly have the

> traditions and concepts on the wall.

>

> LD Pierce

>

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

> "denise200305" <honan@...> wrote:

>>

>> This is a question about putting up banners in

>> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,

>> and 12 Concepts written on them.

>>

>> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.

>>

>> We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote

>> was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our

>> group.

>>

>> An old timer and very knowledgeable member

>> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers

>> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in

>> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).

>>

>> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as

>> saying that he was against the banners.

>>

>> I have never read or heard this before. I have

>> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and

>> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info

>> on this.

>>

>> So was wondering if you may have anything on

>> the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts

>> on their use (if he ever said anything about

>> them) as I am very interested in finding out

>> if this was so.

>>

>> Really appreciate your time

>> Thanking you

>> Kind Regards Denise

>> Member Brisbane Traditions Group

>> Australia

>>

>


0 -1 0 0
6310 Edward
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 2/1/2010 9:15:00 AM


By an odd coincidence:



I got sober at a city mission in Virginia that has both a night shelter (the

only one in town that does not exclude the intoxicated) and a long-term

residential program for drunks and drug addicts, and I still volunteer there.



Of late, some younger alcoholics who have dropped out of the program but stay in

the shelter have been trying jimson weed for its hallucinogenic properties and

often have to be transported by ambulance to the local detox for safekeeping.



They turn up drunk again as soon as they're released, so at least we can assume

that the experiences brought on by hyoscine, scopolamine and hyoscyamine do not

remove the urge to drink.



It is indeed said to be a "poor man's trip", nowhere near as pleasant as the

illegal psychedelics, and I heard a rhyme about it which goes "Can't see, can't

spit, can't pee, can't .." (I think most alkies can probably figure out the last

word).



Y'all's in service

Ted G.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:

>

> I finally found what I was looking for -- some eyewitness accounts by people

who had taken belladonna, describing what happened and what it felt like.

>

> Belladonna has the same psychoactive components as jimsonweed (Datura

stramonium) -- atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.

>

>


0 -1 0 0
6311 Stephen Gentile
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/4/2010 4:43:00 PM


From Stephen Gentile, Mike B. (tuswecaoyate),

Mike Barns (mikeb384), and Dudley Dobinson



- - - -



From: Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com>

(sagentile at hotmail.com)



Here is a picture I found on the net.



http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/5520258/2/istockphoto_5520258-\

alcoholism-postage-stamp.jpg




- - - -



From: "Mike B" <tuswecaoyate@yahoo.com>

(tuswecaoyate at yahoo.com)



Here is a link with a photo of the stamp. Mike



http://www.mysticstamp.com/viewProducts.asp?sku=1927



- - - -



From: Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>

(mikeb384 at verizon.net)



http://www.arpinphilately.com/blog/how-are-postage-stamps-designed/en/



- - - -



From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com

(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)



I do not have the photo but do have all the official papers relating to the day

this stamp was issued in DC and have attached scans. The quote from the Egyptian

hieroglyphics may be of interest to this group. I suspect the photo mentioned to

be a private one taken at the ceremony. I also have a copy of the invitation.



Email me, and I will send you (as an email attachment) scans of the official

papers and a copy of the invitation.



Dudley - Birr Ireland


0 -1 0 0
6312 mykeblanch
Ed The salesman /Tradition three Ed The salesman /Tradition three 2/4/2010 5:36:00 PM


I have a few questions that I was hoping that

someone could answer.



In the chapter on tradition 3 in the 12 & 12

[see pp. 143-145], it mentions Ed the salesman.

Doing a search I find that Ed was possibly Jim

Burwell. Is that correct?



After asking for money and help, did the group

really leave him to fend for himself?



Last question is which AA member's house did he

sneak into by night? [p. 144]



Any history on this story would be appreciated.



Mike



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator:



I am sure that we have people in the AAHL who

will be able to supply a good deal of additional

information. But be sure and see Nancy Olson's

material at:



http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm#TheViciousCycle



on Jim Burwell MD and the Big Book story "The Vicious Cycle"

(2nd edition #238, 3rd edition #238, 4th edition #219).



Also see Message 3080



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3080



from Shakey Mike.


0 -1 0 0
6313 Tom Hickcox
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/5/2010 6:35:00 PM


At 15:43 2/4/2010, Stephen Gentile wrote:

>- - - -

>

>From: Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com>

>(sagentile at hotmail.com)

>

>Here is a picture I found on the net.

>

>http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/5520258/2/istockphoto_5520258\

-alcoholism-postage-stamp.jpg


>

>- - - -



Several years ago this stamp and an associated first day cover, at

least I think that is what they are called, envelope with a photo of

Bill W and his handwritten version of the original six steps was

available on eBay and I purchased it for a very modest fee..



I suspect other examples are out there, I've seen them. A stamp

collector would likely know more about this issue.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
6314 t
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/5/2010 11:12:00 PM


I don't know if they qualify as the banners you

are asking about, but most groups I have gone to

or visited in the US since the late 70's have

had the steps and traditions prominently displayed

... either on the old window shades or the newer

2 foot x 3 foot folding placards that were purchased

thru the local intergroup or GSO in NY.



Somehow I don't think so many groups would have

them up, or that the intergroups and GSO would

be selling such things if Bill W had come out

against them.





>>

>> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

>> "denise200305" <honan@...> wrote:

>>

>>> This is a question about putting up banners in

>>> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,

>>> and 12 Concepts written on them.

>>>

>>> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.

>>>

>>> We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote

>>> was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our

>>> group.

>>>

>>> An old timer and very knowledgeable member

>>> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers

>>> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in

>>> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).

>>>

>>> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as

>>> saying that he was against the banners.

>>>

>>> I have never read or heard this before. I have

>>> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and

>>> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info

>>> on this.

>>>

>>> So was wondering if you may have anything on

>>> the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts

>>> on their use (if he ever said anything about

>>> them) as I am very interested in finding out

>>> if this was so.

>>>

>>> Really appreciate your time

>>> Thanking you

>>> Kind Regards Denise

>>> Member Brisbane Traditions Group

>>> Australia

>>>


0 -1 0 0
6315 doci333
Dropkick Murphy''s in Jack Mc.''s poem Drunks Dropkick Murphy''s in Jack Mc.''s poem Drunks 2/9/2010 7:10:00 PM


Good Day Everyone,



In the poem by Jack Mc., "Drunks," what is meant

when he writes, in one line of the poem,



"and sent us to places like Dropkick Murphy's"?



Line 31 underlined - See below please



THE POEM CAN BE FOUND IN A NUMBER OF PLACES,

FOR EXAMPLE:



http://www.sobermusicians.com/drunks.html



http://www.standupoet.net/ (Click Poems then to Drunks)



Google has many pages about the band by that

name, but I didn't see anything in our group's

past postings when I searched there.



Respectfully,



Dave G.



Illinois



U.S.A.



THE WORDS OF THE POEM:



DRUNKS

for my father, and the people who almost saved his life



We died of pneumonia in furnished rooms

where they found us three days later

when somebody complained about the smell

we died against bridge abutments

and nobody knew if it was suicide

and we probably didn't know either

except in the sense that it was always suicide

we died in hospitals

our stomachs huge, distended

and there was nothing they could do

we died in cells

never knowing whether we were guilty or not.



We went to priests

they gave us pledges

they told us to pray

they told us to go and sin no more, but go

we tried and we died



we died of overdoses

we died in bed (but usually not the Big Bed)

we died in straitjackets

in the DTs seeing God knows what

creeping skittering slithering

shuffling things



And you know what the worst thing was?

The worst thing was that

nobody ever believed how hard we tried



We went to doctors and they gave us stuff to take

that would make us sick when we drank

on the principle of so crazy, it just might work, I guess

or maybe they just shook their heads

__________________________________________

and sent us places like Dropkick Murphy's

__________________________________________



and when we got out we were hooked on paraldehyde

or maybe we lied to the doctors

and they told us not to drink so much

just drink like me

and we tried

and we died



we drowned in our own vomit

or choked on it

our broken jaws wired shut

we died playing Russian roulette

and people thought we'd lost

but we knew better

we died under the hoofs of horses

under the wheels of vehicles

under the knives and bootheels of our brother drunks

we died in shame



And you know what was even worse?

was that we couldn't believe it ourselves

that we had tried

we figured we just thought we tried

and we died believing that

we didn't know what it meant to try



When we were desperate enough

or hopeful or deluded or embattled enough to go for help

we went to people with letters after their names

and prayed that they might have read the right books

that had the right words in them

never suspecting the terrifying truth

that the right words, as simple as they were

had not been written yet



We died falling off girders on high buildings

because of course ironworkers drink

of course they do

we died with a shotgun in our mouth

or jumping off a bridge

and everybody knew it was suicide

we died under the Southeast Expressway

with our hands tied behind us

and a bullet in the back of our head

because this time the people that we disappointed

were the wrong people

we died in convulsions, or of "insult to the brain"

we died incontinent, and in disgrace, abandoned

if we were women, we died degraded,

because women have so much more to live up to

we tried and we died and nobody cried



And the very worst thing

was that for every one of us that died

there were another hundred of us, or another thousand

who wished that we could die

who went to sleep praying we would not have to wake up

because what we were enduring was intolerable

and we knew in our hearts

it wasn't ever gonna change



One day in a hospital room in New York City

one of us had what the books call

a transforming spiritual experience

and he said to himself



I've got it

(no you haven't you've only got part of it)



and I have to share it

(now you've ALMOST got it)



and he kept trying to give it away

but we couldn't hear it



the transmission line wasn't open yet

we tried to hear it

we tried and we died



we died of one last cigarette

the comfort of its glowing in the dark

we passed out and the bed caught fire

they said we suffocated before our body burned

they said we never felt a thing

that was the best way maybe that we died

except sometimes we took our family with us



And the man in New York was so sure he had it

he tried to love us into sobriety

but that didn't work either, love confuses drunks

and he tried and still we died

one after another we got his hopes up

and we broke his heart

because that's what we do



And the worst thing was that every time

we thought we knew what the worst thing was

something happened that was worse



Until a day came in a hotel lobby

and it wasn't in Rome, or Jerusalem, or Mecca

or even Dublin, or South Boston

it was in Akron, Ohio, for Christ's sake



a day came when the man said I have to find a drunk

because I need him as much as he needs me

(NOW

you've got it)



and the transmission line

after all those years

was open

the transmission line was open



And now we don't go to priests

and we don't go to doctors

and people with letters after their names

we come to people who have been there

we come to each other

and we try

and we don't have to die





©—Jack Mc


0 -1 0 0
6316 john wikelius
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/5/2010 11:27:00 PM


As a stamp collector, I have a thousand

stamps of Alcoholism.



1981 First Day Covers are available as well.



Used stamps value at 0.50, unused approx 1.50.



They make great gifts.


0 -1 0 0
6317 Charley Bill
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/7/2010 1:42:00 AM


Charles,



I have several 8X10 B&Wphotos of that ceremony

and a mint page of the stamps, given to me by

Dr Joe Zuska., who is in some of the pictures.



I will try to find these pictures, scan and

forward them to you, perhaps next Monday. I

can send a picture of the stamps, too, if you

want it.



Charley Bill <charley_b@verizon.net>

(charley_b at verizon.net)



On 2/3/2010 5:20 PM, Charles Knapp wrote:

>

> I had a copy of that same photo at one time.

> Somehow the photo became corrupt and I lost it.

> I found it on the Internet a few years ago and

> have never seen it since. This was the caption

> that was with the photo:

>

> Alcoholism Stamp Issued

>

> First Day Stamp issued, featuring Alcoholism,

> August 19, 1981. In celebration four important

> individuals, in promoting awareness of Alcoholism

> as public health problem pictured:

>

> Walter J. Murphy, Lois Wilson, widow of the

> co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous; William

> F. Bolger, Postmaster Genera; and R. Brinkley

> Smithers; Board member of the NCA and Financier

> of the Modern Alcoholism Movement.

>

> Couldn't find anything on Walter J Murphy other

> than he became the Executive Director of NCADD,

> but not sure of his role in 1981.

>

> Hope this helps

>

> Charles from Wisconsin

>

> - - - -

>

> >From the original question:

>

> The stamp in question is a U.S. first-class postage

> stamp with the words on it: "Alcoholism. You Can

> Beat It!" Just the words, no picture on the stamp.

>


0 -1 0 0
6318 pvttimt@aol.com
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 2/6/2010 1:07:00 AM


As an EMT in an area where Jimson weed grows by the side of the road, I can

tell you first hand that our patients who ingest Jimson tea do not appear to be

having a very good time. We usually have to put them in restraints in order to

transport, and based on what the ER docs say, the physostigmine antidote is

almost as dangerous as the weed itself.



Tim T.



- - - -



Original message from: Edward <elg3_79@yahoo.com>

Sent: Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:15 am



I got sober at a city mission in Virginia that

has ... a night shelter. Of late, some younger

alcoholics who have dropped out of the program

but stay in the shelter have been trying jimson

weed for its hallucinogenic properties and

often have to be transported by ambulance to

the local detox for safekeeping.



They turn up drunk again as soon as they're

released, so at least we can assume hat the

experiences brought on by hyoscine, scopolamine

and hyoscyamine do not remove the urge to drink.



- - - -



Belladonna has the same psychoactive components

as jimsonweed (Datura tramonium) -- atropine,

hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.


0 -1 0 0
6319 diazeztone
Gert Behanna''s son Gert Behanna''s son 2/7/2010 5:41:00 PM


I have long had some pages on my site about

Gert Behanna and her books, AA talks, and things.



I had an email from her son a few years ago and

I never heard back from him. Does anyone know how

to contact him?



Did any of you ever have a conversation with Bard

(Gert Behanna's son)?



I write this on behalf of another member also

who contacted me, from the Louisville Metro

Traditions Group, by the name of L L



ld pierce

www.aabibliography.com

eztone at hotmail dot com


0 -1 0 0
6320 Ben Hammond
Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/8/2010 12:48:00 PM


Howdy All ... I have been searching for the

source of the phrase "Bridge of Reason"

(with caps) from the Big Book, pp. 53 and 56.



The only thing I can find on Google is references

to a website which is attacking the Mormon Joseph

Smith.



... Can anyone please clarify?



... God Bless you all...Old Ben, Tulsa OK



Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond

5126 S. St. Louis Av

Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105

918 313 4059



- - - -



BIG BOOK pages 53 and 56:



p. 53 "Arrived at this point, we were squarely confronted

with the question of faith. We couldn't duck the issue.

Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of

Reason toward the desired shore of faith. The outlines

and the promise of the New Land had brought lustre

to tired eyes and fresh courage to flagging spirits.

Friendly hands had stretched out in welcome. We

were grateful that Reason had brought us so far. But

somehow, we couldn't quite step ashore. Perhaps we

had been leaning too heavily on reason that last mile

and we did not like to lose our support."



p. 56 "Then, like a thunderbolt, a great thought came.

It crowded out all else:

'WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THERE IS NO GOD?'

This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his

knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a

conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and

through him with the certainty and majesty of a great

tide at flood. The barriers he had built through the

years were swept away. He stood in the Presence of

Infinite Power and Love. He had stepped from bridge

to shore. For the first time, he lived in conscious com-

panionship with his Creator."


0 -1 0 0
6321 mrpetesplace
Looking for websites with archival preservation information Looking for websites with archival preservation information 2/6/2010 2:31:00 PM


Does anyone have a favorite website or information

I can help make available for preservation of

archival material? I would like to provide this

information on my own site with links.



Does anyone have such information on their own

area's site to assist other members? Thank you.


0 -1 0 0
6322 James Bliss
Re: AA history book from GSO? AA history book from GSO? 2/6/2010 1:25:00 AM


You can see a somewhat detailed timeline and the results of this

attempted history in Message 4951 of this group. It is located at:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4951



Jim



sally.kelly1941 wrote:

>

> Thanks to all who directed me to time lines

> for AA history. There is one submitted by a

> Michael S to the Fourth Dimension Meetings web

> site that appears to be the Arthur S timeline

> with updates.

>

> AA HISTORY BOOK: 1950 TO THE PRESENT

>

> It follows the progress, through GSC meetings,

> of a planned AA history book, covering the period

> since 1950, being prepared by GSO. The last

> mention on that time line of that effort is at

> the 45th GSC meeting in 1995.

>

> Who knows what became of that effort?

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
6323 Stockholm Fellowship
Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert 2/6/2010 9:46:00 AM


EURYPAA 2010 Stockholm is currently seeking submissions for its Friday Night

Sunset Concert!



If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for the

lineup, please email Matt D at archiedohman@yahoo.com a link to your music, or

send a song in the mail. It's all in service, fun and fellowship for the EURYPAA

conference, so there will be no compensation -- However, a table will be

provided to get info out about the acts performing.



Also, Matt is looking for some comedians, clowns, freaks in general, fire

eaters, etc, to do entreacts while bands are setting up and breaking down.



Thanks,

Matt D

Co-Chair of Friday night entertainment for EURYPAA 2010

archiedohman@yahoo.com



Spread the Word! The 1st Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Convention will

be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. More information at

www.EURYPAA.org/2010


0 -1 0 0
6324 Arthur S
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/8/2010 5:52:00 PM


From Arthur S. and Shakey Mike



- - - -



From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com)



Tony is right



The various window shade, placard and table-top displays of the Steps and

Traditions and Concepts are part of Conference-approved literature and

service material and have been listed in the GSO (US/Canada) catalog for

quite a number of years. They are the foundation of AA's 3 Legacies of

Recovery, Unity and Service. They are also frequently printed in book

appendices and inside the covers of pamphlets.



It would be a bit incongruous that Bill W would be against banners or

placards portraying the 36 spiritual principles he himself authored. In AA

Comes of Age, Bill W speaks very glowingly of the banner unveiled behind the

stage in Kiel Auditorium in 1955 showing the circle and triangle logo and

explaining its meaning (and the symbolism of the 3 Legacies).



It's been my observation that when members resort to the "newcomer tactic"

(i.e. invent or augur ways that newcomers will be affected by something -

usually negative) it's primarily due to the fact that they can't come up

with a common sense reason to be against something that they are against.



It might be useful to ask for a copy of any written material by Bill W

citing what the members claims he said. On the other hand Bill has probably

been cited on quite a few things he never said.



Arthur



- - - -



From: "shakey" <shakey1aa@yahoo.com>

(shakey1aa at yahoo.com)



see 5/11/2003 posting by charles k. photo's

incl of slogans appearing in 1953 grapevine



- - - -



Original message from "denise200305" <honan@...>

said:

>>

>>> This is a question about putting up banners in

>>> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,

>>> and 12 Concepts written on them.

>>>

>>> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia ....

>>>

>>> An old timer and very knowledgeable member

>>> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers

>>> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in

>>> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).

>>>

>>> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as

>>> saying that he was against the banners.

>>>

>>> I have never read or heard this before. I have

>>> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and

>>> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info

>>> on this.

>>>

>>> Thanking you

>>> Kind Regards Denise

>>> Member Brisbane Traditions Group

>>> Australia

>>>


0 -1 0 0
6325 Bill Lash
RE: Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert 2/10/2010 6:21:00 PM


This goes WAY outside of the parameters of

what's allowed to be sent out to this group.

Please read the guidelines again. Thank you.



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill







-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Stockholm Fellowship

Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 9:47 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert







EURYPAA 2010 Stockholm is currently seeking submissions for its Friday

Night Sunset Concert!



If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for

the lineup, please email Matt D at archiedohman@yahoo.com a link to your

music, or send a song in the mail. It's all in service, fun and fellowship

for the EURYPAA conference, so there will be no compensation -- However, a

table will be provided to get info out about the acts performing.



Also, Matt is looking for some comedians, clowns, freaks in general, fire

eaters, etc, to do entreacts while bands are setting up and breaking down.



Thanks,

Matt D

Co-Chair of Friday night entertainment for EURYPAA 2010

archiedohman@yahoo.com



Spread the Word! The 1st Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Convention

will be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. More information at

www.EURYPAA.org/2010





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6326 nuevenueve@ymail.com
Re: Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob 2/9/2010 7:28:00 PM


Hello Group, just a fact to know:



In some Countries (mainly in those very

anthropologically linked to ancestral religious

and political leadership imagery), one finds

pictures of both Bill W. and Dr. Bob on the AA

meeting rooms' walls, or even their figurines

in carved wood.



Don't know what Bill & Bob would have thought

about this, but it just happens.



- - - -



From the moderator: compare Message 4497



"Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in

Alcoholics Anonymous"



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4497



"I confess all my errors to the priest since it's

the most mortal sin to receive the Lord without

confessing all. Here too I have to confess all my

errors. Here they talk to us of good things.

When I came here and saw the pictures of the

founders, I thought, 'I've never seen a saint with

glasses before!'"



"His comments drew laughter from the audience.

Displaying the portraits of the founders above

the lectern echoed the placement of saints'

images in a Catholic church. For this man, his

A.A. colleagues were confessors and Bill W.

and Dr. Bob his saints."


0 -1 0 0
6327 ricktompkins
RE: Looking for websites with archival preservation information Looking for websites with archival preservation information 2/10/2010 8:59:00 PM


Hello peter@aastuff,



Most all Area websites have a link to the AAWS site www.aa.org and its

extraordinary AA Archives portal.



The AA Archives at the General Service Office in NYC recommends the Society

of American Archivists. Located in Chicago, Illinois it is a massive

resource for conservation methods, ethics, and continued study. SAA also has

membership offers allowing discounted books and a wealth of information. SAA

is truly a fellowship for both professionals and any of us in the AA

Fellowship with the desire for preservation study and the knack for

conservation.



http://www.archivists.org



Conservation materials? The best source I have found over the years is

Gaylord Brothers out of Syracuse, New York. Out of about five companies, it

has the best prices for materials and its customer service is excellent.

Materials are relatively expensive but worthwhile, and it has basic books

and pamphlets about conservation methods.



http://www.gaylord.com



Here's a caveat: both these non-AA sites may not approve of posted links

from a 'private' website, and I'd consider them "advertisements" if I saw

them on an AA History web page.



On your own, though, anyone here should feel free to explore either site.

These two are my personal favorites!



Yours in fellowship,



Rick, Illinois


0 -1 0 0
6328 J. Lobdell
RE: Dropkick Murphy''s in Jack Mc.''s poem Drunks Dropkick Murphy''s in Jack Mc.''s poem Drunks 2/10/2010 8:50:00 PM


Dr. John (Dropkick) Murphy (yes, he was actually

a doctor) was a professional wrestler who came

back east to the Boston area from California ca

1939-40, and according to reminiscences by one

Eddie Costello (b. 1928) who watched him wrestle

in the early '40s, he happened "on the side" to

maintain a "dry-out" farm for alcoholics, I

believe at Bellows Farm in Massachusetts

(ad as early as 1942, property finally sold in

1973).



- - - -



From: "stevec012000" <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>

(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)



Dropkick Murphy's was supposedly a rehab center

in oldtime Boston (I believe).



There is a Celtic Rock band named that as well.

Here is an article where they make small mention

of it:



http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/calendar/articles/2004/03/11/a_sold_out_\

homecoming_for_murphys/




- - - -



From the moderator, see:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropkick_Murphys



"Dropkick Murphys are an American Celtic punk/

hardcore punk band formed in Quincy, Massachusetts.

There are differing stories as to the origin of

the band's name. Former band member Marc Orrell

has said:"



"The Dropkick Murphy will come and get you if

you don't go to sleep tonight. It's a rehab

center, I think it's in Connecticut. I think

it was the guy who used to come around late at

night for all the drunks, like if you were too

drunk to drive home, he would come and get you

and put you in this hole that you couldn't get

out until you were sober enough, I don't know.

There's a bunch a stories, it's also a boxer,

a bunch of things, a rehab center in Connecticut,

grandparents used to scare kids with it."



- - - -



The original message quoted the lines from

the poem which said:



> We went to doctors and they gave us stuff to take

> that would make us sick when we drank

> on the principle of so crazy, it just might work, I guess

> or maybe they just shook their heads

> and sent us places like Dropkick Murphy's

> and when we got out we were hooked on paraldehyde

> or maybe we lied to the doctors

> and they told us not to drink so much

> just drink like me

> and we tried

> and we died


0 -1 0 0
6329 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/10/2010 5:30:00 PM


"Who am I to say there is no God." was said by John Henry Fitzhugh

Mayo. It's in the book on 2 different pages. Both He and Jimmy Burwell attended

the same Episcopal Academy in Va. Fitz's father was a Episcopal minister

educated in Princeton ministering in Cumberstone Md. Interestingly , One

re-found his religion and one remained agnostic, but both were friends for life

and stopped drinking using Alcoholics Anonymous. They are buried only feet apart

from each other in that beautiful church in Cumberstone.



The following statement from the Albany Episcopal diocese explains the use of

Reason. I think it ironic that the three legged stool is also used in AA.



Rethinking the Three-Legged Stool

by The Rev. Dr. Canon Christopher Brown



What makes Anglicanism unique? An earlier generation of Anglicans replied,

"Nothing at all. We are a 'bridge church' with a vocation to draw all

churches together. We hold nothing that is distinct and uniquely Anglican; our

beliefs and practices are simply those that are common to the universal

Church."



Today, one is more likely to hear something like this: "Anglicans do not

ascribe an absolute authority to Scripture. At the same time, Anglicanism

rejects the absolute claims of an infallible papacy. Anglicanism is distinct

in its reliance on the 'Three-Legged Stool of Scripture, Reason, and

Tradition."



Attributed to the 16th century English writer, Richard Hooker, the

"Three-Legged Stool" has become the essential feature of a distinct

"Anglican Ethos." Its popularity appears to lie in the manner in which it

functions to exclude any form of religious "absolutism." Neither the Bible, nor

the authority or the Church, nor the reasoning intellect can claim the last

word,

but together they offer a balanced way to discern the will of God.



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Hardcore Group

BTW there will be a AA Conference "Love and Service"

12-5 Feb 20,2010 in Perry Hall Baptist Church

3919 Schroeder Ave

Perry Hall MD 21128 USA(outside Baltimore MD)

The 1st portion 9-10 AM is History and Archives


0 -1 0 0
6330 James Blair
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/10/2010 11:53:00 PM


Arthur wrote



> It would be a bit incongruous that Bill W would be against banners or

> placards portraying the 36 spiritual principles he himself authored.



The first banners on roll up window shades were produced in the New York

area and they were titled "Twelve Suggested Steps." Also, cards and other

local literature was printed in this manner. This was probably in the

1945-46 period.



Bill was opposed to the title "Twelve Suggested Steps" and twice delegates

to the General Service Conference put forward conference actions to change

the title from Twelve Steps to Twelve Suggested Steps and their proposed

actions were rejected.



I had read a couple of letters in the early GV's on this subject and I

brought it up with Frank M.(archivist) on a trip to GSO and he explained it

to me.



I have not been able to find any letters by Bill on the matter.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
6331 Mike Breedlove
Re: Looking for websites with archival preservation information Looking for websites with archival preservation information 2/11/2010 12:55:00 PM


Peter and John,



Regarding archival preservation, institutions to explore include the Library of

Congress (LOC), the Northeast Document Conservation Center (NEDCC), the

Foundation of the American Institute for Conservation (FAIC), and the National

Archives (NARA). Following is a selected list.



One of the best preservation sites is Preservation 101 -

http://www.nedcc.org/education/online.php As the introduction states -

Preservation 101 is a comprehensive self-paced online course that focuses on the

preservation of paper collections and related formats. Participants will learn

about the basics of preservation in the context of small and moderately-sized

library or archival collections – how to identify deteriorated materials, how

to properly care for collections, and how to set priorities for preservation. A

primary goal of this course is to enable you to gather the information needed

for a general preservation planning survey of your institution, and to that end,

several tools have been devised to assist you in using this course effectively.

Once on the Preservation 101 home page, be sure to click on “Before You

Begin for an introduction to the many facets of this program.



Related to it is the COOL site for professional conservators, but that provides

much useful information for the lay person. It is located at -

http://cool.conservation-us.org/



The following Wikipedia site is a useful overview -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preservation_(library_and_archival_science)



The following syllabus contains several URL references and itself offers a good

overview -

http://ischool.umd.edu/courses/2009/LBSC%20786%20Cybulski%20Fall%202008.pdf



Take care, Mike B,

Prattville, Alabama

Area One Archivist



----- Original Message -----

From: john wikelius

To: mike breedlove

Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 05:07 PM

Subject: Fw: [AAHistoryLovers] Looking for websites with archival preservation

information



----- Forwarded Message ----

From: mrpetesplace <peter@aastuff.com>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:31:30 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Looking for websites with archival preservation

information





Does anyone have a favorite website or information

I can help make available for preservation of

archival material? I would like to provide this

information on my own site with links.



Does anyone have such information on their own

area's site to assist other members? Thank you.

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6332 jenny andrews
LSD and alcoholism treatment LSD and alcoholism treatment 2/14/2010 12:20:00 PM


Letter to the British Medical Journal, 11 June 1966: The recent notoriety given

to LSD in the press has led to its withdrawal by Sandoz from the market. In

carefully selected cases we found the drug to be a helpful adjunct to

psychotherapy. LSD can be made by any competent chemist, and is apparently being

prepared by a few individuals for private distribution. Sandoz, up to the time

of the drug's withdrawal, restricted its distribution to psychiatric

institutions or carefully vetted individual psychiatrists. It will be

unfortunate if LSD becomes available only for "kicks" and not for serious

psychotherapeutic endeavour. (Signed by four doctors at West Park hospital,

Epsom, Surrey UK).



One of the psychiatric institutions mentioned could have been Powick hospital,

Worcestershire, UK, which reported favorable results when treating alcoholics

and others with LSD - see www.idmu.co.uk/lsd.htm



Laurie A.



_________________________________________________________________

Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6333 nuevenueve@ymail.com
Studies of AA in different cultures Studies of AA in different cultures 2/12/2010 1:10:00 PM


Hello Group:



There's a study considering some sociological and cultural influences inside and

around AA in several Countries/Cultures, it was published by The Wisconsin

University Press and is entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous As A Mutual-Help: A Study

In Eight Societies".



Could you please reccomend some other papers alike?



Thank you.


0 -1 0 0
6334 Glenn Chesnut
Trysh Travis, new book, Language of the Heart: Cultural History Trysh Travis, new book, Language of the Heart: Cultural History 2/14/2010 6:07:00 PM


"How recovery ideas migrated into the popular imagination"

 

An interview with Trysh Travis about her new book:



The Language of the Heart: A Cultural History of the Recovery Movement from

Alcoholics Anonymous to Oprah Winfrey (Chapel Hill, North Carolina: University

of North Carolina Press, 2009).

 

http://www.rorotoko.com/index.php/article/trysh_travis_book_interview_language_h\

eart_cultural_history_recovery_moveme/


 

In a nutshell

 

My book is about that loosely defined cultural phenomenon known as "the recovery

movement" -- an agglomeration of self-help groups and practices that have grown

out of Alcoholics Anonymous since its founding in 1935. Although most people

know someone who is or has been "in recovery," most people are also a little

vague about what that means. That vagueness has allowed critics -- both

conservative and progressive -- to caricature the recovery movement as

narcissistic, banal, and apolitical. The Language of the Heart is intended to

show that recovery is a diverse and evolving phenomenon whose complex history

reflects the shifting ideas about gender and power that characterize

contemporary America.

 

I've used recovery's print culture to narrate the story of its evolution from AA

-- which began as an alcohol-focused, evangelical Christian, and resolutely

masculine sub-culture -- to Oprah Winfrey, a self-proclaimed "food addict" and

survivor of childhood sexual abuse who espouses a healing metaphysical

spirituality to millions of women around the globe. Most recovery publications

come from the margins of polite print culture. Rather than the products of

professionally credentialed authors writing in the pages of esteemed journals,

many of recovery's central ideas appeared first in obscure pamphlets,

self-published tracts, and the textbooks of the addiction treatment industry.

None of these are usually considered "serious" literature. But both the writing

and the reading of such materials is an extremely serious matter for many

recovering people.

 

The wide angle

 

Two phenomena led me to this project. A number of people close to me are

recovering addicts of one sort or another, and when I attended meetings with

them I noticed that books featured prominently in their meetings. Alcoholics

Anonymous, written by one of AA's co-founders and usually called "the Big Book,"

was the most prominent. But people also carried with them daily devotional

readers published by AA, Al-Anon (the organization for friends and families of

alcoholics), and treatment centers like Hazelden.

 

That's not something you often see in depictions of AA or NA (Narcotics

Anonymous) in film or on TV; there, a 12-Step meeting is only about people

talking. But in the meetings I attended people often referred to their books as

they talked, highlighted and annotated passages that mattered to them, and

engaged in long debates over what a passage or a phrase might mean. As a

literature teacher, these are habits I try to inculcate in my students (not

usually with much success), and I wanted to find out how and why people in

recovery were so intense about their reading.

 

At the same time that I was thinking about reading within 12-Step groups, I

started to notice an increasing number of popular novels aimed at women that

seemed to offer some version of recovery's central ideas. Powerlessness,

forgiveness, the importance of self-love and of "keeping it simple"; these were

all values that I was hearing espoused in meetings, and they were also popping

up in mid-list fiction -- not only Oprah books, but "serious" titles like

Michael Cunningham's The Hours and bestsellers like Rebecca Wells's Divine

Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood. This made me curious about how recovery ideas

had migrated out of the church basements where meetings were held and into the

popular imagination.

 

There's a lot at stake in that migration, I think. When a person goes to AA,

declares, "I am powerless over alcohol," and reads daily from the Big Book to

get instructions on how to live so as to remain sober, she has made a conscious

decision to adopt a set of mental habits -- a worldview, if you want to call it

that -- because she wants to change her life. Few people sit down with a novel

thinking, "I want to get some lessons in how to change my life from this book."

But the novels I was seeing had a powerful didactic streak. Through traditional

sentimental plots involving mothers and children, they were urging readers not

so much to quit using alcohol or drugs (though a few of them made that case in

passing), but to quit demanding satisfaction from contemporary consumer

capitalist American society, to admit they were powerless over their own lives.

 

There's something very Zen in such an admission, and that spiritual equilibrium

is what many people in recovery are striving for. At the same time, as a

feminist, I just couldn't get comfortable with powerlessness and "acceptance" as

the paths to happiness for women in the aggregate. When taken out of the context

of the individual pursuit of sobriety, recovery ideas seemed profoundly

non-liberatory. This puzzled me: how and why did these ideas move from one

context to another, and what was it about that changed context that gave them

such a different valence? To answer those questions, I decided to write the book

that became The Language of the Heart. Fortunately, as I wrote I got the

opportunity to revise this fairly simple binary into a much more complex and

multi-faceted picture.

 

A close-up

 

I've got two of these. The first is on pages 16-17, where I talk about what this

book is not. Unlike most of the writings on the topic, The Language of the Heart

is neither "for" nor "against" recovery, and it's important that people know

that going in. Twelve-step groups like AA may work well for some people but not

for others. The broader culture of recovery is in some ways insipid, banal, and

politically reactionary, and in other ways profound, exciting, and progressive.

Like any complex cultural phenomenon, recovery can't be easily boiled down to a

"good" or a "bad" thing, and people who come to the book expecting such blanket

praise or condemnation will be disappointed.

 

The second thing I hope a browsing reader would come across is the series of

images on pages 89-91. These show the iconic figure that people in AA refer to

as "the man on the bed," the de-toxing drunkard being visited by sober AAs and

encouraged to try their program of recovery. The first image is a staged

photograph that accompanied the 1941 Saturday Evening Post article that first

brought AA national attention; the second is an illustration for an article in

the AA magazine The Grapevine. That illustration was translated into stained

glass by AA members in Akron, Ohio in 2001, and the final image is of their

work, which hangs in the Akron AA archives.

 

This triptych of images is important to me for two reasons. The image of "the

man on the bed" exemplifies both the vulnerability (represented by the man on

the bed himself) and the mutuality (represented by the AAs who have come to

offer him help) that together form the heart of 12-Step recovery.

Mid-twentieth-century straight white masculinity did not value either of those

traits particularly highly, and AA's most radical feature may be its injunction

to its members (about 66% of whom are men) to give up the habits of "domination

and dependence" that have shaped their lives and their drinking. The man on the

bed is poised to renounce those habits or to slip back into them, and so his

image appears frequently in AA's material culture. on sobriety medallions,

bookmarks, murals, etc. That AAs continue to re-imagine the man on the bed in

new media suggests that even as the organization has grown into a global

phenomenon of millions of members, its radical

potential --  the possibility that individual men might transform their lives

by embracing relationships of compassion, rather than competition -- remains

alive.

 

Second, these images testify to the enormous help I received from recovering

people while I was putting this book together. Few of my primary sources reside

in standard repositories like libraries, museums, or professionally-maintained

archives; instead, they came from private collections, offbeat literature

dealers, and the archives maintained by recovering people interested in their

own history. Their generosity in sharing these materials with me has been one of

the greatest rewards of my research, and it is emblematized in these photos.

 

Lastly

 

One of the things I've become most aware of while working on this book is the

degree to which cultural critics inside and outside of the academy write about

phenomena that reflect and reinforce their own tastes and worldviews. There's a

lot of writing out there about addiction, because addiction, despite its tragic

dimension, retains a sheen of cool. Drug and alcohol use and abuse are

dis-inhibiting; they de-stabilize social norms. Without too much effort, we can

see them as heroic challenges to the staid routines of our uptight bourgeois

lives.

 

Recovery culture, by contrast, is really square, both as aesthetics and as

politics. One of the amateur authors I talk about drew inspiration from Lawrence

Welk in many of his writings, for crying out loud -- and not in an ironic way!

It's this squareness, I think, that has led critics to overlook the complexity

of recovery -- its existence as a cultural formation with a genuine intellectual

and social history that both reflects and helps to construct the larger

economic, political, and psychic realities around it.

 

Personally, I would rather listen to hip-hop than to Lawrence Welk, and prefer

reading high modernism to the personal stories in the Big Book. But that doesn't

mean that the culture of people whose tastes don't run to transgressive or

ironic texts is transparent or not worthy of scrutiny. Neither belletristic nor

academic critics of the popular expend much energy on square cultures, however,

except to occasionally talk about how awful they are. I wonder what other

cultural formations besides recovery scholars of popular culture have simplified

or overlooked in recent years simply because they don't give us aesthetic or

intellectual pleasure.


0 -1 0 0
6335 Harriet Dodd
The two alcoholic employees in To Employers The two alcoholic employees in To Employers 2/13/2010 11:37:00 AM


Hello



We are studying the chapter in the Big Book called

To Employers at the moment.



Page 149 says "Today I own a little company.

There are two alcoholic employees, who produce

as much as five normal salesmen."



Do we know who these alcoholics were?



Many thanks,

Harriet

______________________________



From the moderator: it will be useful here to

go to the Message Board at



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages



and do a search for all the messages using the

phrase "To Employers" (e.g. Message 5468) and

all the messages entitled "authorship of Chapter

10" (e.g. Messages 3280 and 3284).



The chapter To Employers begins on p. 136 with the statement that this chapter

was written by "one member who has spent much of his life in big business." It

is believed by most AA historians (although not one hundred percent of them)

that this was Hank Parkhurst. See Hank's story "The Unbeliever" in the first

edition of the Big Book.



If this was indeed Hank, then on p. 141 the company which the author of this

chapter said he was employed by was Standard Oil of New Jersey.



Then on p. 149, the passage you are asking about says: "Today I own a little

company," which would have to be a reference to the Honor Dealers Co., an

automobile polish distributorship.



The company started out as just Hank Parkhurst and Bill Wilson. They hired Ruth

Hock, a nonalcoholic, as their secretary. She typed up the various versions of

the Big Book manuscript, and became AA's first secretary. Later on they hired

Jim Burwell, another alcoholic, making four of them in all -- three alcoholics

and one nonalcoholic.



See Jim Burwell's Big Book story "The Vicious Cycle," 3rd edit. page 246, "Bill

and Hank had just taken over a small automobile polish company," and 3rd edit.

page 248, "peddling off my polish samples."



In the passage you are asking about, on pp. 149-150, Hank was probably thinking

of himself as "the boss," so the "two alcoholic employees" he was referring to

would have been Bill Wilson and Jim Burwell.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
6336 Michael
Earliest prison/behind the walls groups in Canada Earliest prison/behind the walls groups in Canada 2/15/2010 3:33:00 PM


This is a question for those familiar with

Canadian AA History.



I believe the first prison group in Canada was

the Intramural Group at Dorchester Penitentiary

in New Brunswick, registered with GSO June 22,

1949. The Group is still active.



Does anyone know of an older group of this type

in Canada?



Thanks.



Michael


0 -1 0 0
6337 Charlie C
Re: archival resources archival resources 2/15/2010 7:34:00 AM


For some years I had, among other duties, that of being college archivist where

I am a librarian, and I found Light Impressions an excellent source of archival

quality supplies and information: http://www.lightimpressionsdirect.com/



Charlie C.

IM = route20guy


0 -1 0 0
6338 Roy Levin
Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA 2/15/2010 2:51:00 AM


It's Joe Hawk, not Joe Hutch.  The BigBookAwakening

website is run by my AA buddy Dan S. of Santa

Monica a former Joe H. sponsee, and indeed, he

does sell a set of CDs of Joe's salvation army

workshop back in 93.  I have these CDs myself.

Joe is an excellent presenter of the BigBook

based step process.



________________________________



From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 7:32:00 PM

Subject: Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA



There is a set for sale at:



http://bigbookawakening.com/


0 -1 0 0
6339 DudleyDobinson@aol.com
Re: Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob 2/11/2010 7:26:00 AM


Some countries should include the U.S.A.

I got sober in San Jose, Ca and the local

Alano Clubs had pictures of our founders on

the walls of meeting rooms. No further

comment needed!



Dudley - Birr, Ireland



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>

(serenitylodge at mac.com)



Personally, I detested the change on chips/tokens when they went from the

triangle to a likeness of Bill & Bob (those metal/bronze tokens). I refuse to

carry them. It smacks of idolatry worship that I can't abide.



I refuse to attend meetings where there are such depictions on the wall; even

large framed pictures are disturbing to me.



I believe that any such representation on our literature, tokens, posters, etc,

is simply wrong spirited. The fellowship is not Bill and/or Bob. Holding up

one person as "god" simply defeats the whole purpose of our principles.

Although I may refer to something one or the other has written, (such as the

Steps), that does not mean I worship or idolize them as being infallible or

god-like.



- - - -



Original message from <nuevenueve@ymail.com>

(nuevenueve at ymail.com)



In some Countries (mainly in those very

anthropologically linked to ancestral religious

and political leadership imagery), one finds

pictures of both Bill W. and Dr. Bob on the AA

meeting rooms' walls, or even their figurines

in carved wood.



Don't know what Bill & Bob would have thought

about this, but it just happens.



- - - -



From the moderator: compare Message 4497



"Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in

Alcoholics Anonymous"



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4497



"I confess all my errors to the priest since it's

the most mortal sin to receive the Lord without

confessing all. Here too I have to confess all my

errors. Here they talk to us of good things.

When I came here and saw the pictures of the

founders, I thought, 'I've never seen a saint with

glasses before!'"



"His comments drew laughter from the audience.

Displaying the portraits of the founders above

the lectern echoed the placement of saints'

images in a Catholic church. For this man, his

A.A. colleagues were confessors and Bill W.

and Dr. Bob his saints."


0 -1 0 0
6340 Arthur S
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/11/2010 1:47:00 PM


Jim,



Wall banners or placards were not distributed to groups by the NY Office

prior to the mid-1970s after Bill W had passed away. Individual groups may

have elected to do what they did on an individual basis.



A question posited at the 1974 conference was: "Could we have the Twelve

Steps and Twelve Traditions made up in a 2' x 4' or other size suitable for

hanging in meeting places?" The answer was "The matter will be discussed at

a meeting of AAWS." I believe they began production of them in 1975.



A question posited at the 1976 conference that: "There has been much

controversy over the alleged misuse of the word "suggested" in reference to

the Twelve Steps. Please give all examples of literature changes in wording

since the 1975 Conference-changes allegedly made only to insure uniformity

in reference to the Twelve Steps, "which are suggested as a program of

recovery." The answer was: "In the listing of the Twelve Steps, the word

"suggested" was removed from 14 pamphlets. In three pamphlets, it has not

been removed. For further information, contact the Conference secretary."



The 1976 Conference Committee on literature recommended that "Present

terminology used regarding the word "suggested" when referring to the Twelve

Steps is consistent with that employed in the Big Book, the "Twelve and

Twelve," and other A.A. literature and should remain as is."



Bill may have been opposed to injecting the word "suggested" into the title

of the Steps but he was not opposed to the notion of the Steps being viewed

as suggestions. In the 1953 final Conference report, Bill is quoted as

saying:: "Where variations of the Traditions are concerned, we've gone up

and down like a window shade. We even have a Tradition that guarantees the

right of any group to vary all of them, if they want to. Let's remember, we

are talking about suggested (underlined in the report for emphasis) steps

and traditions. And when we say each group is autonomous, that means that it

also has a right to be wrong."



Cheers



Arthur



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



Bill W said and repeated:



There is no dogma.

The one theological proposition is a Power greater than oneself.

Even this concept is forced on no one.



Banners and slogans, plus people instructing others, are dogma.



- - - -



Original message no. 6330 from James Blair

<jblair@videotron.ca> (jblair at videotron.ca)



The first banners on roll up window shades were produced in the New York

area and they were titled "Twelve Suggested Steps." Also, cards and other

local literature was printed in this manner. This was probably in the

1945-46 period.



Bill was opposed to the title "Twelve Suggested Steps" and twice delegates

to the General Service Conference put forward conference actions to change

the title from Twelve Steps to Twelve Suggested Steps and their proposed

actions were rejected.



I had read a couple of letters in the early GV's on this subject and I

brought it up with Frank M.(archivist) on a trip to GSO and he explained it to

me.



I have not been able to find any letters by Bill on the matter.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
6341 J. Lobdell
Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/15/2010 9:55:00 AM


The Bridge of Reason occurs in [Moses] Maimonides, eight hundred (or so) years

ago, and was picked up by Spengler in his magnum opus, The Decline of the West,

greatly publicized in the 1930s. I'm not sure if "the Bridge of Reason leads to

the Shore of Faith" is itself in Maimonides, but that's generally where the

Bridge has been deemed to lead. My guess is any Big Book use comes from

Maimonides through Spengler -- unless it's also in Lewis Browne, the one Jewish

religious writer we know Bill read.


0 -1 0 0
6342 corafinch
Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/15/2010 9:13:00 AM


It sounds something like what Charles Fillmore wrote in the "Manifestation"

chapter of Christian Healing. Referring to the gulf between spiritual knowledge

and the material manifestation, he wrote, "The bridge needed is the structure

which thought builds." Fillmore and his wife Myrtle founded Unity Church, a

Christian denomination within the New Thought movement which was such an

important influence on AA.



However, other writers in the New Thought tradition used similar analogies, so

Fillmore is certainly not the only potential source. Thomas Troward, in the

Edinburgh lectures, spoke of the subconscious (which he considered to be

amenable to conscious suggestion) as the bridge between individual minds and the

higher thought or divine mind. Troward capitalized many of these terms, although

Fillmore tended to leave them in lower case.



- - - -



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

Ben Hammond <mlb9292@...> wrote:

>

> I have been searching for the

> source of the phrase "Bridge of Reason"

> (with caps) from the Big Book, pp. 53 and 56.

>


0 -1 0 0
6343 James Blair
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/17/2010 6:54:00 PM


Arthur wrote

> Wall banners or placards were not distributed to groups by the NY Office

> prior to the mid-1970s after Bill W had passed away. Individual groups may

> have elected to do what they did on an individual basis.





These were made up by N.Y. Intergroup on blinds as well they printed cards

with Twelve Suggested Steps on them.



Too bad Frank M. is gone b/c he explained the whole kerfuffle to me.

Jim


0 -1 0 0
6344 James Blair
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/17/2010 7:07:00 PM


SUBTOPIC: the "suggested" twelve steps



Arthur wrote

> A question posited at the 1976 conference that: "There has been much

> controversy over the alleged misuse of the word "suggested" in reference

> to

> the Twelve Steps. Please give all examples of literature changes in

> wording

> since the 1975 Conference-changes allegedly made only to insure uniformity

> in reference to the Twelve Steps, "which are suggested as a program of

> recovery." The answer was: "In the listing of the Twelve Steps, the word

> "suggested" was removed from 14 pamphlets. In three pamphlets, it has not

> been removed. For further information, contact the Conference secretary."





I found a 1983 note under literature which states, ""The word "suggested" in

the title of the Twelve Steps not be reinstated."'



This suggests to me that it once existed in the literature. I have a friend

who attended the 83' conference and I'll see if I can get in touch with him

and ask if he can shine any light on this.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
6345 Cindy Miller
Re: Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob 2/17/2010 6:02:00 PM


From Cindy Miller, tomper, and Robert Stonebraker



- - - -



From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



How about the big Bill & Bob pictures displayed

on an easel at the large Founder's Day meetings?



> `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>





- - - -



From: "tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com> (tomper99 at yahoo.com)



Very nice portraits of Dr. Silkworth, Dr. Bob, and Bill W. were displayed on the

wall at the first A.A. club in New York. Bill lived upstairs for awhile so

apparently did not mind this.



Picture of this can be seen on the aa.org website on the timeline:

http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/ Just plug in search word clubhouse.



Portraits of someone can just be a sign of respect and do not necessarily

indicate idol worship of the individuals.



- - - -



From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



This photo is in the 1935-1944 section of the AA timeline, describing events

which took place in 1940, and headed "The first New York clubhouse," with the

phrase "Interior of the 24th Street Clubhouse, New York City" under the photo.

But it is not clear that the photo which is posted on the timeline was actually

taken back in 1940. Can anyone provide the date when the photo was taken?



- - - -



From: "Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>

(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)



In effort to interest members in AA history, our local clubhouse has hung large

oil paintings of Bill & Bob, also fifteen 8" x 10" photos of the well known

early movers and shakers of the 1930s and 1940s era.



Bob S., Richmond, IN


0 -1 0 0
6346 Woodstock Singh
Big Book Study Guide by Ken W. Big Book Study Guide by Ken W. 2/19/2010 12:49:00 PM


I found this work a few years ago. It is easy

to find in Google search.



The author claims membership in AA beyond 50

years.



Does anyone know if the author is still among

the living?



Does anyone have any additional historical

information -- beyond what can already be

found by a Google search -- about the author's

background and how this work was written?



Jim S.

Pensacola, FL



______





Ken W., Study Guide to the AA Big Book



"A SPIRITUAL VIEW BEYOND THE LIMITS OF

TRADITIONAL RELIGION"


0 -1 0 0
6347 Tom Hickcox
Commemorative Little Red Book Commemorative Little Red Book 2/19/2010 3:52:00 PM


Hazelden published a special edition of the Little Red Book in 1996

to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of its initial publication in

1946. It was supposed to be a more or less exact copy of the first

printing but somehow was copied from the 1949 printing, the unstated

fifth printing. I don't know how that happened, but I'm sure it is a

good story.



I noticed some time back that there are at least two versions of the

commemorative edition, the difference being the wording of Step

12. One has "Having had a spiritual experience as the result . . ."

as was in the original LRB [and the original Big Book] up until the

12th Printing. The other version has the current wording "Having had

a spiritual awakening as the result . . ."



I am aware that Webster did not use the exact wording of the Steps in

the early printings of the LRB. The early printings have ". . . God

as we understand Him" in Step 3 and sometimes in Step 11. This

perhaps is carryover from pamphlets, but I'm not interested in that

here. It will have to wait until later.



I thought perhaps the aberrant version [awakening] was the rarer, but

I came across another Commemorative Edition this week and it has awakening.



A friend was sent twenty copies of the book when it came out by Bill

Pittman who inscribed one of them to him. He tells me that book has

"experience" which indicates that the initial press run had that.



I am interested in knowing why there are two versions of this edition

and possibly also the relative abundance of each.



I plan on listing all the variations of the Coll-Webb printings of

the LRB unless there is a list already available.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
6348 Glenn Chesnut
Early AA beginners lessons Early AA beginners lessons 2/21/2010 3:39:00 PM


EARLY AA BEGINNERS LESSONS



History of the Beginners Classes: a Speech by Wally P.



Initial growth in Alcoholics Anonymous took place in Cleveland, Ohio. Clarence

S. and the guys went out actively pursuing drunks and brought them off bar

stools and street corners. We don't do that today, but we were doing it back

then [late 1930's and 1940's]. And it worked!



In early 1940, when there were about 1,000 members of AA, more than half were

from Cleveland. The book 'AA Comes of Age' talks about it on pages 20 and 21:

"It was soon evident that a scheme of personal sponsorship would have to be

devised for the new people. Each prospect was assigned an older AA, who visited

him at his home or in the hospital, instructed him on AA principles, and

conducted him to his first meeting." So even back in the early days the sponsor

was taking the sponsee to meetings and getting together with him, rather than

having the sponsee track the sponsor down. 'AA Comes of Age' continues by

saying, "But in the face of many hundreds of pleas for help, the supply of

elders could not possibly match the demand. Brand-new AA's, sober only a month

or even a week, had to sponsor alcoholics still drying up in hospitals."



Because of this rapid growth in Cleveland, the idea of formalized classes

started. In the book 'Dr. Bob and the Good Old-timers' it states on page 261,

"Yes, Cleveland's results were the best. Their results were in fact so good that

many a Clevelander really though AA had started there in the first place." Over

half of the fellowship was from Cleveland up and through the mid-1940s.



During the winter of 1941 the Crawford Group (founded in February 1941)

organized a separate group to help newcomers through the Steps. By the first

issue of the Cleveland Central Bulletin, October 1942, the Crawford "Beginners'

Class" was listed as a separate meeting. And in the second issue, in November

1942, there was an article entitled "Crawford Men's Training." This refers to

possibly the first "Beginners' Class." "The Crawford Men's Training System has

been highly acclaimed to many. Old AA's are asked to come to these meetings with

or without new prospects, where new prospects will be given individual attention

just as though they were in a hospital. Visiting a prospect in his home has

always been handicapped by interruptions. But the prospect not daring to

unburden himself completely for fear of being overheard by his relatives and by

the AA's reticence for the same reason. Hospitalization without question is the

ideal answer to where the message will be most effective; but the Crawford

training plan strikes us as being the next best."



In the early days they weren't sure if you could get sober if you didn't go to

treatment. That was one of the early questions -- could a person get sober

without going to a three or five-day detox. Because it was during that detox

that sometimes ten and twenty AA members came to visit the new person. And each

hour the prospect was awake he would hear someone's story -- over and over

again. And something gelled during these hospital stays. But they were trying to

do it outside of the hospital and this is where the first of the classes came

from.



These classes continued at Euclid Avenue Meeting Hall through June 1943 and at

that time the Central Bulletin announced a second session -- "The Miles Training

Meeting." The bulletin read, "The Miles Group reports they have enjoyed unusual

success with their training meetings. The newcomer is not permitted to attend a

regular AA meeting until he has been given a thorough knowledge of the work."

The newcomer couldn't go to a meeting until he completed the training session. A

lot of places didn't allow you to go to AA meetings until you had taken the four

classes. You didn't just sit there -- you had already completed the steps when

you went to your first AA meeting. "From 15 to 20 participate at each training

meeting and new members are thoroughly indoctrinated."



These meetings grew and spread and visitors came from out of town and out of

state.



In 1943 the Northwest Group in Detroit, Michigan standardized the classes into

four sessions. "In June 1943 a group of members proposed the idea of a separate

discussion meeting to more advantageously present the Twelve Steps of the

recovery program to the new affiliates. The decision was made to hold a Closed

Meeting for alcoholics only for this purpose. The first discussion meeting of

the Northwest Group was held on Monday night June 14, 1943 and has been held

every Monday night without exception thereafter (as of 1948). A plan of

presentation of the Twelve Steps of the recovery program was developed at this

meeting. The plan consisted of dividing the Twelve Steps into four categories

for easier study." The divisions were:



1. The Admission

2. Spiritual

3. Restitution and Inventory

4. Working and the message



"Each division came to be discussed on each succeeding Monday night in rotation

This method was so successful that it was adopted first by other groups in

Detroit and then throughout the United States.



Finally the format was published in its entirety by the Washington, DC Group in

a pamphlet entitled 'An interpretation of our Twelve Steps." The first pamphlet

was published in 1944 and contains the following introduction: "Meetings are

held for the purpose of aquatinting both the old and new members with the Twelve

Steps on which our Program is based. So that all Twelve Steps may be covered in

a minimum of time they are divided into four classifications. One evening each

week will be devoted to each of the four subdivisions. Thus, in one month a new

man can get the bases of our Twelve Suggested Steps." This pamphlet was

reproduced many times in Washington, DC and then throughout the country and is

even still being printed in some areas today.



In the Fall of 1944, a copy of the Washington, DC pamphlet reached Barry C. --

one of the AA pioneers in Minneapolis. He wrote a letter to the New York

headquarters requesting permission to distribute the pamphlet. We talk about

"Conference Approved Literature" today; but this is the way the Fellowship

operated back then. This is a letter from Bobby B., Bill W.'s secretary, printed

on "Alcoholic Foundation" stationary. This is what she says:



"The Washington pamphlet, like the new Cleveland one, and a host of others, are

all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove these local pieces.

By that I mean the Foundation feels that each group is entitled to write up

their own 'can opener' and to let it stand on it's own merits. All of them have

their good points and very few have caused any controversy. But in all things of

a local nature we keep hands off -- either pro or con. Frankly, I haven't had

the time to more than glance at the Washington booklet, but I've heard some

favorable comments about it. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets

now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't some good points."



And then in 1945 the AA Grapevine printed three articles on the "Beginners'

Classes." The first one was published in June and it described how the classes

were conducted in St. Louis, Missouri. This has to do with the "education plan"

and they called it the Wilson Club. "One of the four St. Louis AA groups is now

using a very satisfactory method of educating prospects and new members. It has

done much to reduce the number of 'slippers' among new members. In brief it is

somewhat as follows: Each new prospect is asked to attend four successive

Thursday night meetings. Each one of which is devoted to helping the new man

learn something about Alcoholics Anonymous, it's founding and the way it works.

The new man is told something about the book and how this particular group

functions. Wilson Club members are not considered full active members of AA

until they've attended these four educational meetings."



In the September 1945 issue of the Grapevine the Geniuses Group in Rochester, NY

explained their format for taking newcomers through the Steps. The title of the

article was "Rochester Prepares Novices for Group Participation." This is how

they perceived the recovery process to operate most efficiently: "It has been

our observation that bringing men [and woman] into the group indiscriminately

and without adequate preliminary training and information can be a source of

considerable grief and a cause of great harm to the general moral of the group

itself. We feel that unless a man, after a course of instruction and an

intelligent presentation of the case for the AA life, has accepted it without

any reservation he should not be included in group membership. When the sponsors

feel that a novice has a fair working knowledge of AA's objectives and

sufficient grasp of it's fundamentals then he is brought to his first group

meeting. Then he listens to four successive talks based on the Twelve Steps and

Four Absolutes. They are twenty-minute talks given by the older members of the

group and the Steps for convenience and brevity are divided into four sections.

The first three Steps constitute the text of the first talk; the next four the

second; the next four the third; and the last Step is considered to be entitled

a full evening's discussion by itself." This group taught the Steps in order

rather than in segments.



In December 1945, the St. Paul, Minnesota Group wrote a full-page description of

the "Beginners' Meetings." The description of their four one-hour classes was:

"New members are urged to attend all the sessions in the proper order. At every

meeting the three objectives of AA are kept before the group: to obtain and to

recover from those things which caused us to drink and to help others who want

what we have."



In 1945 Barry C., of Minneapolis, received a letter from one of the members from

the Peoria, Illinois Group. In the letter, the writer, Bud, describes the

efforts of Peoria, Illinois in regarding the "Beginners' Classes." "In my usual

slow and cautious matter I proceeded to sell the Peoria Group on the Nicollet

Group. Tomorrow night we all meet to vote the adoption of our bylaws slightly

altered to fit local conditions." (No one taught the classes the same way. They

were taught based on a group conscience.) "Sunday afternoon at 4:30 our first

class in the Twelve Steps begins. We're all attending the first series of

classes so we'll all be on an even footing. We anticipate on losing some

fare-weather AA hangers-on in the elimination automatically imposed by the rule

that these classes must be attended. This elimination we anticipate with a "we"

feeling of suppressed pleasure. It is much as we are all extremely fed up with

running a free drunk taxi and sobering-up service."



Then sometime prior to 1946 in Akron, Ohio the Akron Group started publishing

four pamphlets on the AA Program. They were written by Ed W. [**see note at the

end**] at the direction of Dr. Bob, one of the co-founders of AA. Dr. Bob wanted

some "blue-collar" pamphlets for the Fellowship. In one of the pamphlets, "A

Guide to the Twelve Steps", it reads: "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics

Anonymous is intended to be a simple, short and concise interpretation of the

rules for sober living as compiled by the earliest members of the organization.

The writers and editors are members of the Akron, Ohio Group where Alcoholics

Anonymous was founded in 1935. Most of the ideas and explanations were brought

out in a series of instruction classes conducted by veteran members of the

group." So this proves the classes were being taught in Akron, Ohio.



There are a lot of places they were being taught.



Then the classes were actually formalized into a book called "The Little Red

Book" in 1946. The inscription on the inside cover says, "The material in this

Little Red Book is an outgrowth of a series of notes originally prepared for

Twelve Step instruction to AA beginners." So we know the "Little Red Book" came

out of these four one-hour classes also. "Few books have had greater record for

humble service than the Little Red Book upon which so many members have cut

their AA teeth." A manuscript drawn up from these notes was sent to Dr. Bob at

the request of USA and Canadian members. He approved the manuscript and the book

was published in 1946. Dr. Bob approved of "The Little Red Book." So Dr. Bob not

only authorized the publication of the Akron pamphlets, he also endorsed "The

Little Red Book," both of which were products of the "Beginners' Classes."



Even our first AA group handbook, originally entitled "A Handbook for the

Secretary", published by the Alcoholic Foundation in 1950, had a section on the

"Beginners' Classes."



At the time there were only three types of meetings: Open Speaker Meetings,

Closed Discussion Meetings, and Beginners' Meetings. There was no such thing as

an Open Discussion Meeting in the early days of Alcoholics Anonymous. In the

Beginners' Meetings, which are described in the Meeting section, the handbook

states: "In larger metropolitan areas a special type of meeting for newcomers to

AA is proved extremely successful. Usually staged for a half-hour prior to an

open meeting, this meeting features an interpretation of AA usually by an older

member presented in terms designed to make the program clear to the new member.



(Note: The Chicago Group held their "Beginners' Classes" a half-hour prior to

their Open Meeting. When publishing the group handbook, the New York office only

described Chicago's format.)



After the speaker's presentation the meeting is thrown open to questions." In

each of the four one-hour classes there was always a session for questions

afterwards. "Occasionally, the AA story is presented by more than one speaker.

The emphasis remains exclusively on the newcomer and his problem."



The four one-hour classes were taught all over the country. Some other cities

include Oklahoma City, Miami Florida, and Phoenix Arizona.



If these classes were so important, then what happened to them? Most of the

people who have joined AA in the last twenty-five years or so have never even

heard of them. Ruth R., an old-timer in Miami Florida, who came into AA in 1953,

gave some insight into the demise of the "Beginners' Classes." "At that time the

classes were being conducted at the Alana Club in Miami -- two books were used:

"Alcoholics Anonymous" (Big Book) and the "Little Red Book." Jim and Dora H.,

Florida AA pioneers, were enthusiastic supporters and they helped organize

several of the classes and served as instructors." (Note: Dora was a Panel 7

Delegate to the General Service Office.) Ruth recalled that the classes were

discontinued in the mid-1950s as the result of the publication of the book

"Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" by Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc. In

the Miami area the "Twelve and Twelve" replaced both the "Big Book" and the

"Little Red Book" and "Step Studies" replaced the "Beginners' Classes." In the

process, the period for taking the Steps was expanded and modified from 4 weeks

to somewhere in between 12 and 16 weeks. The Fourth Step inventory was modified

and became a much more laborious and detailed procedure. What was originally

conceived as a very simple program, which took a few hours to complete, evolved

into a complicated and confusing undertaking requiring several months.



Studying the Steps is not the same as taking the Steps. In the "Beginners'

Classes" you take the steps. The Big Book says, "Here are the steps we took" not

"here are the steps we read and talked about." The AA pioneers proved that

action, not knowledge, produced the spiritual awakening that resulted in

recovery from alcoholism. On page 88, the authors of the Big Book wrote, "It

works -- it really does. We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God

discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all.

There is action and more action. Faith without works is dead."



This concludes the description of the "Beginners' Classes" during Wally P.'s

talk in Mesa, Arizona on November 23, 1996. Wally P. is an AA Archivist from

Tucson, Arizona. For two years he researched and studied areas of the country

that held "Beginners' Classes." He then started teaching the classes under the

guidance of his sponsor who took the classes in 1953 and never drank again. In

March of 1996 Wally mentioned the "Beginners' Classes" as part of his historical

presentation at the Wilson House in East Dorset, Vermont. Wally then wrote and

published a book entitled "Back to Basics: The Alcoholics Anonymous Beginners'

Classes -- Take all 12 Steps in Four One-Hour Sessions."

________________________________________



**SOURCES**



http://stepstudy.org/2008/05/21/history-of-the-beginners-classes-a-speech-by-wal\

ly-p/




See also AAHistoryLovers Message 1627 from Bill Lash for another copy of this

talk: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1627

________________________________________



**THE AUTHOR OF THE AKRON PAMPHLETS**

Perhaps not Ed W., but Evan W. or Irvin W.



See Message #2469 from jayaa82@aol.com

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2469



"The Akron Pamphlets were commissioned by Dr. Bob but written by Evan W. an

Akron member who had been a newspaper writer. Dr. Bob believed that the Big Book

might be too complicated for the "blue collar" member or others with little

education. The pamphlets are still printed and distributed by the Akron

Intergroup. Jay M."



But see First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc



There is no "Ed W." on that list, but there is no "Evan W." mentioned either.

Could "Evan W." be the man referred to as Irvin Whiteman in that list? The names

Irvin, Irwin, and so on, were regularly confused in the AA oral tradition -- see

for example all the different spellings of Irwin Meyerson's name.


0 -1 0 0
6349 BobR
Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/21/2010 4:15:00 PM


About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk

County, New York received a record, Alcoholics

Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have

transferred it to CD.



Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and

two of us are wondering if there is more to it.

Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere

so we can fill in the missing pieces?



This recording comes from 1947. Is there any

kind of copyright on it still in effect?


0 -1 0 0
6350 corafinch
Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/19/2010 6:40:00 PM


I couldn't seem to find the Maimonides reference (although Maimonides is known

for bridging science and faith), and the sense in which Spengler used the phrase

did not seem to expand on the Big Book meaning. This passage from Systematic

Theology (1886) by Augustus Hopkins Strong is somewhat interesting. It is part

of a footnote on pp 87-8. Strong has been discussing the various "proofs" for

the existence of God:



"The three forms of proof already mentioned, Cosmological, Teleological and

Anthropological may be likened to the three arches of a bridge over a wide and

rushing river. The bridge has only two defects but these defects are very

serious. First is that one cannot get on the bridge; the end toward the outer

bank is wholly lacking; the bridge of logical argument cannot be entered upon

except by assuming the validity of logical processes; this assumption takes for

granted at the outset the existence of a God who has made our faculties to act

correctly; we get on the bridge, not by logical processes but only by a leap of

intuition; and by assuming at the beginning the very thing which we set out to

prove. The second deficiency of the so-called bridge of argument is that when

one has gotten on he can never get off. The connection with the further bank is

also lacking. All the premises from which we argue being finite, we are

warranted in drawing only a finite conclusion. Argument cannot reach the

Infinite, and only an infinite being can be called God.



"We can get off from our logical bridge not by logical process but only by

another and final leap of intuition and by once more assuming the existence of

the infinite Being we had so vainly sought to reach by mere argument. The

process seems to be referred to in Job 11:7, 'Canst though by searching find out

God? Canst thou find out the almighty unto perfection?'"



I'm not implying the the Big Book authors were reading this book, but the

allegory seems similar, and may have made it to them by way of sermons or

lectures.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:

>

> The Bridge of Reason occurs in [Moses] Maimonides, eight hundred (or so) years

ago, and was picked up by Spengler in his magnum opus, The Decline of the West,

greatly publicized in the 1930s. I'm not sure if "the Bridge of Reason leads to

the Shore of Faith" is itself in Maimonides, but that's generally where the

Bridge has been deemed to lead. My guess is any Big Book use comes from

Maimonides through Spengler -- unless it's also in Lewis Browne, the one Jewish

religious writer we know Bill read.

>


0 -1 0 0
6351 russmuller@sbcglobal.net
Father Ralph Pfau-San Juan Batista-Calif Father Ralph Pfau-San Juan Batista-Calif 2/20/2010 9:35:00 PM


I was wondering if anyone has any history on

a retreat that was held annually by Father Ralph Pfau (1947)

I think it started in San Juan Batista, CA.



There has to be some people who have

attended in years past who can tell a story

or two!!! If you have ever attended this retreat and

have a story to tell, big or small, please

pass it on!



"My Retreat Booklet and the way of the Cross"



Chuck Chammberlin attended in 1952 -- John Gray

from Santa Cruz, California, was the Group Leader

for many years.



Thanks! Russ Muller russmuller@sbcglobal.net

(russmuller at sbcglobal.net)


0 -1 0 0
6352 Cherie'' H.
Re: Big Book Study Guide by Ken W. Big Book Study Guide by Ken W. 2/21/2010 11:36:00 PM


A few years ago I was in direct email communication

with Ken. He was a member of AAFriendsWorldWide

online AA group for some time. That is where I met

him. He has also been a member of other online AA

groups.



As far as I know is still alive, although it has

been some time since I was in contact with him.



Perhaps he is reading this and might respond?



--

AA Love and Hugs

Cherie'

Warren, MI

DOS 04/26/01


0 -1 0 0
6353 Bill Lash
Two AA History Presentations Two AA History Presentations 2/23/2010 8:29:00 AM


The Primary Purpose Group of Lynbrook NY presents:

An AA History Presentation with 250 Pictures of Early AA

with Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ

Saturday, March 13, 2010, 1:00PM – 5:00PM

Lynbrook Baptist Church

225 Earle Avenue, Lynbrook, NY 11563

Meeting place of the Primary Purpose Group of Lynbrook NY.

Pictures of the Washingtonians, Frank Buchman, Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves,

Ebby T., Bill & Lois W., Bill W.'s parents & grandparents, Lois W.'s

parents, Dr. Bob & family, all the OH/VT places, Henrietta Seiberling, Bill

D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sister Ignatia, all the N.Y./N.J. places, Charlie

Towns & Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early literature was published, the

Rockefeller dinner, gravesites, etc.

It's very exciting, combining the stories with the images!!

Liberal refreshments will be provided.

For more information please visit www.ppglynbrook.net or call Derrick at

516-317-9237.

For the flyer go to www.justloveaudio.com & click on "Events".

**********

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS HISTORY WEEKEND III

“THE OXFORD GROUP ROOTS OF A.A.”

with Jay S. from Redondo Beach CA

and

Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ

August 20 – 22, 2010

At The Wilson House

(where Bill W. was born)

378 Village Street

East Dorset, VT 05253



Jay S. is an Oxford Group historian. He will be doing three presentations –

“The Early Roots of A.A.: The Akron Miracle”, “Varieties of Spiritual

Experience: James, Jung, Shoemaker & You”, and “What Ever Happened to the

Oxford Group?”.



Barefoot Bill has been studying and collecting AA history since 1994. He

will be doing a presentation on “Bill W. & Dr. Bob’s Oxford Group

Experience” and another one on “Oxford Group Meditation – How To Listen To

God”.



Schedule:

Friday night 8/20/10 9:00 to 10:45pm – Oxford Group (Moral Re-Armament)

movie

Saturday morning 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:20am – The Early Roots of A.A.: The

Akron Miracle

Saturday morning 8/21/10 10:40 to 11:55am – Bill W. & Dr. Bob’s Oxford Group

Experience

Saturday afternoon 8/21/10 1:00 to 2:20pm – Varieties of Spiritual

Experience: James,

Jung, Shoemaker & You

Saturday night 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:45pm – Oxford Group (Moral Re-Armament)

movie

Sunday morning 8/22/10 9:00 to 10:20am – Oxford Group Meditation: How To

Listen To God

Sunday morning 8/22/10 10:40 to 11:55am – What Ever Happened to the Oxford

Group?



For weekend and overnight reservations please call the Wilson House at

802-362-5524.

For more information please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell).

Audio CD’s of this event provided by Just Love Audio.

For the flyer go to www.justloveaudio.com & click on "Events".


0 -1 0 0
6354 Charles Knapp
Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/22/2010 1:58:00 AM


Hello Group,



I believe I have some history on these records. A few years ago, I

purchased an audio CD of what was being titled "Bill W.'s 1st Recorded

Talk." It said the talk was made in 1947, but gave no other information. When I

listened to it I heard a quote that I recognized. The quote was:



"Perhaps this is not the place to talk at length of my own recovery, of our A.A.

program in detail, or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow

alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The

accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous are headlined in the press of the world.

So I shall be content if I can remind myself, and any who would hear that

Alcoholics Anonymous is not, after all, a personal success story. It is instead,

the story of our colossal human failures now converted into the happiest kind of

usefulness by that divine alchemy -- the living grace of God."



I remember this from the 2005 International Convention in Toronto

because I saw this quote on one of the GSO Archives displays panels. Also from

that CD I recognized the talk Bill was giving was copied from a phonograph

record. In October 2006 while in New York doing some research at the GSO

Archives, I was able to piece together some history of this recording. At that

time I was the Archivist for Area 9 in Southern Californian and I found that it

had a Southern California connection other than just the location of his talk.



On Wednesday April 9, 1947, Bill came to Los Angeles and gave a talk at a big

open meeting. After the meeting a member from Los Angeles, who was in the

recording business, suggested to Bill that he should record his talks. This

member offered to provide Bill and AA his recording services, for a small fee,

of course. Sometime during that weekend, Bill shortened his talk and he made a

wire recording and this recording was pressed into a 16 inch record. Bill took

the recording back to New York and found a record company there that

would press records as needed. The member in Los Angeles wanted to press a

couple hundred records at one time, but Bill thought this would put an

unnecessary financial burden on the New York Office. Beside he didn't think they

would sell that many records.



Bill found a company in New York, without ties to AA, called Rockhill

Radio Company, on fiftith Street, that was willing to press one record at a time

or as many at one time as need. This way the New York office would not have to

fork out a lot of money all at once or keep track of any inventory. Bill even

negotiated a deal where the New York office would take all the orders and handle

the money from sales and this reduced the selling price of the records even

more.



We do not know the member's name from Los Angeles or the company he worked for.

However, in the file in New York where I found this

information was a yellowed business card from Specialty Records,

2719 W 7th Street Los Angeles with the name "Art" handwritten on the back. After

some searching I found that Art Rupe started Specialty Records in LA in 1946,

but it is not clear if Art was the member that made the suggestion or just

someone the AA member put Bill in touch with.



In a letter to the group secretaries from the New York office dated May 6, 1947

it offers these records for sale for $3.30 including shipping. Not everyone had

a phonograph that could play 16 inch records so the talk was made on two 12 inch

records, having a playing time of about 15 minutes (15 minutes is a very short

talk for Bill).



In this letter it stated that Bill was very reluctant on make any kind of

records, but finally gave in.



If anyone has a photo of these 2 records, I would love to have a copy for Area

9's file.



hope this helps



Charles from Wisconsin





________________________________

From: BobR <rriley9945@aol.com>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 3:15:40 PM

Subject: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill



About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk

County, New York received a record, Alcoholics

Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have

transferred it to CD.



Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and

two of us are wondering if there is more to it.

Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere

so we can fill in the missing pieces?



This recording comes from 1947. Is there any

kind of copyright on it still in effect?


0 -1 0 0
6355 shakey
Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/23/2010 9:39:00 PM


I own a red record called Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill

from Rockhill Recording with an address on the label of 10 east 50th street new

york city.

ELdorado5-1860. it is a 78 record.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, PA



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "BobR" <rriley9945@...> wrote:

>

> About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk

> County, New York received a record, Alcoholics

> Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have

> transferred it to CD.

>

> Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and

> two of us are wondering if there is more to it.

> Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere

> so we can fill in the missing pieces?

>

> This recording comes from 1947. Is there any

> kind of copyright on it still in effect?

>


0 -1 0 0
6356 bludahlia2003
Documentary film request - Miami Convention 1970 Documentary film request - Miami Convention 1970 2/24/2010 5:47:00 PM


We are producing a documentary film on the history of AA. We have had a lot of

help from AA historians and other archives, but at this point, we are actively

looking for photos or home movies of the 1970 AA Convention, held at the

Fountainebleau Hotel in Miami. Ideally, we'd love to have a shot of Bill W at

the podium, giving his closing talk. However, any shots of the convention –

signage, banners, a view from the back of the auditorium etc – would be very

helpful. We are aware of and will be observing the 11th tradition. Thanks for

any help you can give us.



My e-mail address is <bludahlia2003@yahoo.com>

(bludahlia2003 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
6357 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/23/2010 6:37:00 PM


I have these two recordings framed as well as a third recording made by same

company titled MILESTONES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS by Bill. The third recording

appears to be same vintage, all are red. How can I help you.











-----Original Message-----

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 10:58 pm

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill









Hello Group,



I believe I have some history on these records. A few years ago, I

purchased an audio CD of what was being titled "Bill W.'s 1st Recorded

Talk." It said the talk was made in 1947, but gave no other information. When I

listened to it I heard a quote that I recognized. The quote was:



"Perhaps this is not the place to talk at length of my own recovery, of our A.A.

program in detail, or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow

alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The

accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous are headlined in the press of the world.

So I shall be content if I can remind myself, and any who would hear that

Alcoholics Anonymous is not, after all, a personal success story. It is instead,

the story of our colossal human failures now converted into the happiest kind of

usefulness by that divine alchemy -- the living grace of God."



I remember this from the 2005 International Convention in Toronto

because I saw this quote on one of the GSO Archives displays panels. Also from

that CD I recognized the talk Bill was giving was copied from a phonograph

record. In October 2006 while in New York doing some research at the GSO

Archives, I was able to piece together some history of this recording. At that

time I was the Archivist for Area 9 in Southern Californian and I found that it

had a Southern California connection other than just the location of his talk.



On Wednesday April 9, 1947, Bill came to Los Angeles and gave a talk at a big

open meeting. After the meeting a member from Los Angeles, who was in the

recording business, suggested to Bill that he should record his talks. This

member offered to provide Bill and AA his recording services, for a small fee,

of course. Sometime during that weekend, Bill shortened his talk and he made a

wire recording and this recording was pressed into a 16 inch record. Bill took

the recording back to New York and found a record company there that

would press records as needed. The member in Los Angeles wanted to press a

couple hundred records at one time, but Bill thought this would put an

unnecessary financial burden on the New York Office. Beside he didn't think they

would sell that many records.



Bill found a company in New York, without ties to AA, called Rockhill

Radio Company, on fiftith Street, that was willing to press one record at a time

or as many at one time as need. This way the New York office would not have to

fork out a lot of money all at once or keep track of any inventory. Bill even

negotiated a deal where the New York office would take all the orders and handle

the money from sales and this reduced the selling price of the records even

more.



We do not know the member's name from Los Angeles or the company he worked for.

However, in the file in New York where I found this

information was a yellowed business card from Specialty Records,

2719 W 7th Street Los Angeles with the name "Art" handwritten on the back. After

some searching I found that Art Rupe started Specialty Records in LA in 1946,

but it is not clear if Art was the member that made the suggestion or just

someone the AA member put Bill in touch with.



In a letter to the group secretaries from the New York office dated May 6, 1947

it offers these records for sale for $3.30 including shipping. Not everyone had

a phonograph that could play 16 inch records so the talk was made on two 12 inch

records, having a playing time of about 15 minutes (15 minutes is a very short

talk for Bill).



In this letter it stated that Bill was very reluctant on make any kind of

records, but finally gave in.



If anyone has a photo of these 2 records, I would love to have a copy for Area

9's file.



hope this helps



Charles from Wisconsin





________________________________

From: BobR <rriley9945@aol.com>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 3:15:40 PM

Subject: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill



About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk

County, New York received a record, Alcoholics

Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have

transferred it to CD.



Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and

two of us are wondering if there is more to it.

Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere

so we can fill in the missing pieces?



This recording comes from 1947. Is there any

kind of copyright on it still in effect?

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6358 Tom Hickcox
Author''s Notes in early Little Red Books, 1946 to 1953 Author''s Notes in early Little Red Books, 1946 to 1953 2/28/2010 9:16:00 PM


Recently, I was reading on Hindsfoot.org

<http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html> about the Author's Note in the 1946

and 1949 printings of the Little Red Book, or, more precisely, "The

Twelve Steps" and "The Little Red Book."



I thought it might be a good idea to compare the Author's Notes from

the early printings of the Little Red Book. All the versions were

taken from volumes in my collection.



The Author's Note in the 1946 printing goes:



"This book was originally prepared as a series of notes for

Twelve-step Discussion meetings for new A.A. members. It proved to

be very effective and helpful. Many groups adopted it, using

mimeographed copies. The demand for this interpretation in book form

from both individuals and groups made printing advisable." This is

eight lines long in the book.



The next Author's Note is from what must be the first 1947 printing:



"The Interpretation of the 12 steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous

program was prepared from a series of notes originally used in Twelve

Step discussion meetings for new A.A. members. It proved to be very

effective and helpful. Many groups adopted it, using mimeographed

copies. The demand for the Interpretation in book form from both

individuals and groups made printing advisable." This version is ten

lines long in the book.



The Author's Note for the stated Second Printing, January 1947:



"This book was originally prepared as a series of notes for the

instruction of new A.A. members and as a source of ideas for

Twelve-step Discussion meetings. It proved helpful to both new and

old members, seeming to create great interest in the simple A.A.

fundamentals they too often missed in first reading the Big Book

'ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS.' It sent them back to the Big Book and kept

them reading it thus establishing a solidarity of understanding of

the A.A. Program that was good for the group as a whole. Many groups

adopted it using mimeographed copies. The demand for this

interpretation in book form from both individuals and groups made

printing advisable." Again a single paragraph but seventeen lines long.



The Author's Note for the unstated Third Printing, 1947:



"The material in this little red book is an outgrowth of a series of

notes originally prepared for '12-Steps' instruction to A.A.

beginners and as a source of ideas for A.A. discussion meetings. Its

distribution is founded on a desire to 'Carry the Message' in

recognition of our return to sane living after alcoholism has made

life all but impossible.



"Many groups, in meeting the A.A. need for instruction of new

members, have adopted this brief summarization of the A.A. Recovery

Program expounded in the Big Book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' as an

outline for study of that book. Worthwhile results have followed the

inauguration of weekly classes devoted to guidance of new members in

their quest for a better understanding of the '12 Steps' as a way of life.



"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a

solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship that has been good

for the groups as a whole. Consequently, there has been a closer

adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and application of

its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a noticeable reduction

in slips among our members." Note that this is three paragraphs

long and very expanded.



The Author's Note for the unstated Fourth Printing, 1948, is exactly

the same as the unstated Third Printing.



The title on the half-title pages for the preceding books is "The

Twelve Steps."



The Author's Note for the unstated Fifth Printing, 1949, is the same

for the first two paragraphs. However, the third paragraph is different:



"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a

solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship. They have brought

a closer adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and

application of its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a

noticeable reduction in slips among our members."



I would note that the Author's Note in both printings of the 50th

Anniversary Edition has a typo in the third paragraph. It has "with"

rather than "within" in the first sentence of that paragraph.



The Author's Note for the unstated Sixth Printing, 1950:



"The little (sic) Red Book evolved from a series of notes originally

prepared for 'Twelve Step' suggestions to A.A. beginners. It lends

supplementary aid to the study of the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,'

and contains many helpful topics for discussion meetings. Its

distribution is prompted by a desire to 'Carry the Message to

Alcoholics' in appreciation of our reprieve from alcoholic death.



"Many groups, in meeting the A.A. need for instruction of new

members, have adopted this brief summarization of the A.A. Recovery

Program expounded in the Big Book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' as an

outline for study of that book. Worthwhile results have followed the

inauguration of weekly classes devoted to guidance of new members in

their quest for a better understanding of the '12 Steps' as a way of life.



"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a

solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship. They have brought

a closer adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and

application of its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a much

higher ratio of sobriety among our members."



It refers to the book as "The little Red Book" and changes the second

half of the first paragraph, leaving the second paragraph

unchanged. The last phrase of the third paragraph is changed from "a

noticeable reduction in slips among our members" to "a much higher

ratio of sobriety among our members." I will leave it to the experts

to rationalize the change.



The Author's Note to the Seventh Printing, 1951, is identical to the

Author's Note for the Sixth Printing.



The Author's Note to the Eighth Printing, 1952, is slightly changed

from the Author's Note for the Sixth and Seventh:



"The Little Red Book evolved from a series of notes originally

prepared for 'Twelve Step' suggestions to A.A. beginners. It aids in

the study of the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' and contains many

helpful topics for discussion meetings. Its distribution is prompted

by a desire to 'Carry the Message to Alcoholics' in appreciation of

our daily reprieve from alcoholic death.



"Many groups, in meeting the A.A. need for instruction of new

members, have adopted this brief summarization of the A.A. Recovery

Program expounded in the Big Book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' as an

outline for study of that book. Worthwhile results have followed the

inauguration of weekly classes devoted to guidance of new members in

their quest for a better understanding of the '12 Steps' As a Way of

Life for recovery from alcoholism.



"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a

solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship. They have brought

a closer adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and

application of its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a much

higher ratio of sobriety among our members.



"It is our hope that this Little Red Book may open new avenues of

thought and be helpful to the individual A.A. member in arriving at

his own successful interpretation of the program." "Little" is

capitalized in the first sentence, the second sentence is changed, ".

. .recovery from alcoholism" is added to the last sentence of the

second paragraph, and a fourth paragraph is added.



The Author's Note to the Ninth Printing, 1953 is exactly the same as

that for the Eighth.



This is a good stopping point. There wasn't an unstated Tenth

Printing and printing numbers were assigned starting with the

Eleventh Printing. I would note, though, that we have ten different

printings here, all different in some respect. Maybe Coll-Webb knew

how to count after all!



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
6359 pamelafro88
Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps 2/28/2010 11:30:00 PM


have just come across a reference in Australian AA archives that in 1947 '1000

copies "Interpretations the Twelve Steps" received - 6d. each' Does anyone know

what this pamphlet/booklet is? Are there any copies still available?



- - - -



From the moderator:



If the date is 1947, it can't be the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions book

that Bill Wilson published in 1953, also a price of five pence sounds much too

low for that big a book. (This is assuming that five pence Australian would have

been roughly equivalent to five pence in British pounds sterling, prior to the

introduction of the modern Australian decimal currency in 1966.)



The most commonly used pamphlet (by far) in AA around that time was one whose

formal title was "Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps."

It had been printed by local AA groups all over the United States starting from

around 1943. It was referred to in different parts of the United States by

various names: the Tablemate, the Table Leader's Guide, the Washington DC

Pamphlet, the Detroit Pamphlet, and so on. The pamphlets cost 40 cents each from

the Detroit intergroup office several years ago, but would have been much

cheaper back in 1947. For an introduction to it, and a copy of it, see:

http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html

and so on.



Another possibility, though probably less likely, would be the pamphlet entitled

"A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous" which was written and

printed in Akron, Ohio at some point during the 1940's. For a copy of it, see:

http://hindsfoot.org/Akr12.html



The Texas Pamphlet was written in Houston, Texas in 1940 but it would seem odd

to refer to it as "Interpretations the Twelve Steps." Nevertheless, see

AAHistoryLovers messages 3758 and following for a copy of that, if you'd like to

look at it:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3758



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)


0 -1 0 0
6360 Charlie C
Draft Copies: books about drink Draft Copies: books about drink 2/25/2010 7:56:00 AM


Sorry, but just couldn't resist - abebooks.com, the major internet used book

site, has in their current newlestter the theme of "Draft Copies: Books about

Drink." So yes, a history of US beer cans 1930-1980 etc., lol., but also some

titles related to sobriety, e.g. Peabody's "The Common Sense of Drinking." You

can see the newsletter by going to abebooks.com and scrolling down on the left

to "Recently Featured," or here is the direct link :



http://www.abebooks.com/books/author-alcohol-drunk-kingsley-amis/cocktail-drinki\

ng.shtml?cm_mmc=nl-_-nl-_-h00-bdrinkA-_-cta-search






Charlie C.

IM = route20guy


0 -1 0 0
6361 Dougbert
The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? 3/1/2010 6:53:00 PM


To All,



I have just purchased a very nice copy of The Little Red Book, 1957 edition.

What I see different is that this copy is published by Hazelden.



I also see you can buy new copies of The Little Red Bood published by BN

Publishing, but I have not done a page by page audit of the two books to

determine what changed.



Why would Hazelden give up such a good historical document?



Dougbert



- - - -



From the moderator:



Minneapolis AA members Ed Webster and Barry Collins originally published The

Little Red Book themselves, under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in

Minneapolis. They called themselves the "Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" from their

two last names.



Roughly around the time of Ed Webster's death on June 3, 1971, the Hazelden

Foundation took over publishing it -- see http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html -- and

then for many years Hazelden was given as the publisher.



The current Amazon.com listing for The Little Red Book, however, now has on the

copyright page:



Copyright 2007 BN Publishing

www.bnpublishing.net



This may be a subsidiary of Barnes & Noble, but I cannot determine this for

sure. See http://www.bn.com/


0 -1 0 0
6362 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/26/2010 12:06:00 PM


The three red 1947 recordings I have bear the same information plus Rockhill

Radio. No speed is indicated in the space shown for speed. I have a later

recording LAST MAJOR TALK OF "DR BOB" which shows Rockhill Recording made by

Rockhill Radio, 18 East 50 Street, New York City, Plaza 9-7979. Speed shown as

33 RPM. It is black in color.


0 -1 0 0
6363 bevflk@aol.com
Re: Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps 3/1/2010 12:29:00 PM


From Beverly, David Jones, john wikelius,

Dougbert, and Glenn C.:



- - - -



The original message 6359 from <pamelafro@bigfoot.com>

(pamelafro at bigfoot.com) in Australia said:



have just come across a reference in Australian

AA archives that in 1947 '1000 copies "Interpretations

the Twelve Steps" received - 6d. each' Does anyone

know what this pamphlet/booklet is? Are there any

copies still available?



- - - -



From Beverly <bevflk@aol.com> (bevflk at aol.com)



If you go to The Detroit Pamphlet you will find

it there, ok. I hope this helps you out.



For an introduction to this pamphlet and a copy of it, see:

http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html

and so on.



- - - -



From: David Jones <jonesd926@aol.com>

(jonesd926 at aol.com)



Try these links:



http://www.eskimo.com/~burked/history/tablemat.html



http://aaitems.com/An_Interpretation_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous_Program_of_the_The_\

Twelve_Steps-details.aspx




God bless

Dave



- - - -



From the moderator:



The first link is to one of the many online copies of the Detroit Pamphlet which

Beverly mentioned above, also called the Washington DC Pamphlet, the Tablemate,

the Table Leader's Guide, etc.



The second link is to an early edition of The Little Red Book, see the next

message below.



- - - -



From john wikelius <justjohn1431946@yahoo.com>

(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)

and Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com>

(dougbert8 at yahoo.com)



That is the original name for the Little Red Blook first published in 1946. They

are still around but purchase price is up there.



Could this be a foreign export of The Little Red Book?



- - - -



From the moderator:



See my comment in the previous message. In 1947

Australia was still using a currency based on

and tied to the British system of pounds, shillings,

and pence.



Wikipedia says:

"In 1940, an agreement with the U.S.A. pegged the pound to the U.S. dollar at a

rate of 1 pound = 4.03 dollars. This rate was maintained through the Second

World War and became part of the Bretton Woods system which governed post-war

exchange rates. Under continuing economic pressure, and despite months of

denials that it would do so, on 19 September 1949 the government devalued the

pound by 30.5% to $2.80. The move prompted several other currencies to be

devalued against the dollar."



At 240 pence to a pound, a penny would have been

worth 1.68 cents in U.S. currency.



If the booklet in question was being sold in Australia for five pence, that

would have been 8.40 cents in U.S. currency.



I do not know the price for which Ed Webster's Little Red Book was being sold in

1946 and 1947, but I can hardly imagine them being able to sell a book that big

for only eight and a half cents a copy. In terms of what the U.S. dollar was

worth in the mid 1940's, eight and a half cents was a pamphlet, not book.



Can Tommy Hickcox or anybody tell us what The Little Red Book was sold for in

its 1946 and 1947 printings?



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)


0 -1 0 0
6364 Tom Hickcox
Re: Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps 3/2/2010 12:10:00 AM


Arizona Jack H. has a letter from Charlotte Lappen of the NY Office

to Ed Webster dated August 26th 1947 referencing a price for The

Little Red Book of $1.50.



When Coll-Webb started putting dust jackets on the book with either

the 11th Printing 1955 or 12th 1957, the price on the jacket for both

The Little Red Book and Stools and Bottles was $2.35. This appears

to have been raised to $2.50 for the 13th Printing 1959.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



- - - -



The original message 6359 from <pamelafro@bigfoot.com>

(pamelafro at bigfoot.com) in Australia said:



have just come across a reference in Australian

AA archives that in 1947 '1000 copies "Interpretations

the Twelve Steps" received - 6d. each' Does anyone

know what this pamphlet/booklet is? Are there any

copies still available?



- - - -



Glenn C. wrote in Message #6363 (making one slight numerical correction):



At 1 pound = 4.03 dollars and 240 pence to a pound, a British / Australian penny

would have been worth 1.68 cents in U.S. currency.



>If the booklet in question was being sold in Australia for six

>pence, that would have been 10 cents in U.S. currency.

>

>I do not know the price for which Ed Webster's Little Red Book was

>being sold in 1946 and 1947, but I can hardly imagine them being

>able to sell a book that big for only ten cents a copy.

>In terms of what the U.S. dollar was worth in the mid 1940's, ten cents was a

pamphlet, not book.

>

>Can Tommy Hickcox or anybody tell us what The Little Red Book was

>sold for in its 1946 and 1947 printings?

>

>Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)

>


0 -1 0 0
6365 schaberg43
Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/2/2010 12:25:00 PM


I have long been told that when the Big Book was published in April of 1939,

there were only TWO meetings established - one in Akron and one in Brooklyn.



Can anyone confirm this?



And, if true, can anyone tell me on what nights those two meeting actually met?



Thanks,



Old Bill


0 -1 0 0
6366 Arthur S
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/2/2010 5:51:00 PM


Hi Bill



There were only two groups in April 1939 (Akron and NY) and they held weekly

meetings. Akron meetings were on Wednesday night at T Henry and Clarace

Williams' house on 676 Palisades Dr in Akron, Ohio. NY meetings were at Bill

and Lois' home, 182 Clinton St, Brooklyn NY on Tuesday nights.



Near the end of April 1939, Bill and Lois were evicted from their home. For

a time NY meetings were held at Bert T's tailor shop (and possibly some

other locations). In February 1940, the first clubhouse was rented at 334 ½

W 24th St in NY City and meetings were held there.



In early May 1939, led by pioneer member Clarence S, the Cleveland members

announced that they would meet separately from Akron and the Oxford Group at

the home of Grace and Abby G at 2345 Stillman Rd, Cleveland Heights in

Cleveland.



In October 1939, Akron members severed their ties to the Oxford Group.

Meetings then moved to Dr Bob's house. In January 1940, Akron meetings moved

to King School on Wednesday night.



Cheers



Arthur







From: schaberg43

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:25 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939



I have long been told that when the Big Book was published in April of 1939,

there were only TWO meetings established - one in Akron and one in Brooklyn.



Can anyone confirm this?



And, if true, can anyone tell me on what nights those two meeting actually

met?



Thanks,



Old Bill


0 -1 0 0
6367 J. Lobdell
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/2/2010 6:07:00 PM


Henrietta records the meeting that moved to King School as being on Wednesday

evening, which is the evening on which the King School Group still meets in

Akron. The First Big Book Sold was signed by Bill at Clinton St the night of

publication (given by Library of Congress as April 10 1939, a Monday), but Ginny

M's notation suggests to me (though not strongly) that the meeting at which the

next signatures were added was not that night, and I have a dim recollection of

hearing that the Clinton St. meetings were on Tuesday. But that's open to

correction and it could have been Monday -- and it could have varied, or they

could have gotten together on publication night. Or Bill could have gotten the

copies the next day for a regular Tuesday meeting. Or ... The Akron Meeting was

evidently on Wednesday, though I don't know if that's held for all 75 years.


0 -1 0 0
6368 Michael
Let it begin with me Let it begin with me 3/2/2010 9:09:00 PM


In AA Comes of Age they talk about opening the

meeting at Denver 1975 International Convention

with "let it Begin with Me."



How can I a copy of this?



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator:



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa6thintl1975.html



The Sixth A.A. International Convention

Denver, CO, 1975

by Nancy O.



"The opening session on Friday night began with a flag ceremony. As the name of

each country was called over the public address system, spotlights shown on the

flag, and, with music from the country (perhaps its national anthem) being

played, its flag was carried down the aisle and onto the stage."



"AAs from 29 countries paraded their flags. When they arrived on the stage, each

flag bearer stepped up to the microphone and repeated the conference theme, "Let

It Begin With Me," in his or her native language."



But also see the Al-Anon Declaration, where the phrase "Let it begin with me"

also occurs:



http://www.ncwsa.org/Docs/FAQ/Al-Anon_Info_On_Declaration.pdf


0 -1 0 0
6369 Bill Lash
182 Clinton Street Now For Sale 182 Clinton Street Now For Sale 3/4/2010 8:16:00 AM


182 Clinton Street (where Bill & Lois W. lived

when he got sober) is currently for sale:



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/nyregion/14fyi.html


0 -1 0 0
6370 dad_s0n
Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View 3/4/2010 11:53:00 AM


A MEMBER'S EYE VIEW



I was asked about 20 minutes ago did I know who the author of that pamphlet was

(or the person whose talk it is of). I have no idea but some feel because I have

a little knowledge of AA's roots that I may have answers to a lot more.



Hope you fellas and gals can help me with this one as well.



David (27 years sober and loving it.)



- - - -



From the moderator G.C.



For a read-only copy of the pamphlet see:



http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-41_amemberseyeviewofaa.pdf



This is AAWS conference pamphlet P-41 "A Member's Eye View of Alcoholics

Anonymous." At the beginning it says:



"The author of this paper delivered it first before a class on alcoholism

counseling at one of our large universities. A.A. World Services, Inc. wishes to

thank him for his generous permission to reprint and distribute this talk."



In the talk, he says on page 10 that Bill W. and Dr. Bob met one another "33

years ago," so 33 + 1935 means that the talk was given in 1968. Dr. Bob was dead

by that time, but as the pamphlet says on page 7, Bill W. was still living. The

author of the pamphlet says that he first came to A.A. "more than 16 years ago"

(see page 27, also page 26) which means c. 1952.



This means he would have come into the program just a little after people like

Searcy W. (in Dallas), Sgt. Bill S. (The Psychology of Alcoholism), and Mel B.

(who is such a valued member of the AAHistoryLovers).



LET US BE MINDFUL AT ALL TIMES OF THE PRINCIPLE OF ANONYMITY. The

AAHistoryLovers is a public forum. We must use the same guidelines that would be

used for an article or (if the person is dead) for an obituary in your local

newspaper.


0 -1 0 0
6371 jlobdell54
In Memoriam and Thanks to Michael Alexander [Lazaroff] In Memoriam and Thanks to Michael Alexander [Lazaroff] 3/2/2010 11:01:00 AM


Michael Alexander [Lazaroff] born in Macedonia July 17 1921 died on February 16

2010 in his 89th year. He was a graduate of the University of Pittsburgh in

1943, a Captain in WW2, and a graduate of Harvard Law in 1949. More to our

point, he was the Emeritus Class A Trustee of AA who was New York's

institutional memory going back to his days as a young(er) attorney with Bern

Smith; he was the friend who brought Bill W the copy of Tocqueville's DEMOCRACY

IN AMERICA that informed the Twelve Concepts (but he told me it wasn't his

copy); he was a longtime Trustee and past Chairman of the Board; and he was an

unfailingly courteous answerer of historical questions (and I sat next to him at

dinners as often as I could). Michael Alexander -- Thanks! Requiescat in Pace.


0 -1 0 0
6372 Sober186@aol.com
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/3/2010 2:45:00 PM


Were the Akron meetings before the move to

Kings School AA meetings or Oxford Group meetings

attended by some drying out drunks?



Jim L. Columbus, OH


0 -1 0 0
6373 Tom Hickcox
Re: The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? 3/4/2010 7:43:00 PM


I bought the book Barnes and Noble listed. The one I received is 6"

x 9", 88 pages long, with a bright red paperback cover with the title

"The Little Red Book" in white letters. It is published and

copyrighted by Wilder Publications. However, its text is very close

to the Hazelden book.



I compared it with a more or less current version of Hazelden's LRB,

The First Harper and Row Edition published in 1987. It is the same

general size as the smaller version has been since Hazelden started

publishing it in the middle 1960s. The first Hazelden sticker in a

Coll-Webb series LRB was in a 21st Printing, 1967.



The Wilder book does not have the Author's Note nor the

Dedication. Its Table of Contents is expanded compared with the

Hazelden/Harper.



I compared the chapters of two different steps and the texts were

almost exactly the same. The Wilder book does not have most of the

footnotes and those it has are incorporated into the text rather than

being at the bottom of the page. Most of the footnotes suggest that

the reader read portions of the Big Book. There was one footnote

left out that I think is important, and that is found at the bottom

of p. 125 in the Hazelden/Harper book. It doesn't reference the

quote taken from Fritz Mayo's story, "Our Southern Friend."



Many of the paragraphs thru the Hazelden/Harper book have been broken

into two paragraphs in the Wilder book, but the text was not changed.



The Wilder book lacks "Questions and Answers" and "We Don't Have To - But!"



So, the Wilder book is an approximation of The Little Red Book that

AFAIK Hazelden still publishes, lacking some important parts as well

as most foot notes, which usually suggest a portion of the Big Book

to be read before reading that part of The Little Red Book.



I would have thought Hazelden's copyright would preclude books like this.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



- - - -



From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>

(james.bliss at comcast.net)



One additional item to note about this is that it is not a 1957

edition. Hazelden used 1957 date for many of the copies published since they

acquired the rights in 1971.



The true 1957 version does not have Hazelden as its publisher.



- - - -



ORIGINAL MESSAGE:



At 17:53 3/1/2010, Dougbert wrote:



>To All,

>

>I have just purchased a very nice copy of The Little Red Book, 1957

>edition. What I see different is that this copy is published by Hazelden.

>

>I also see you can buy new copies of The Little Red Bood published

>by BN Publishing, but I have not done a page by page audit of the

>two books to determine what changed.

>

>Why would Hazelden give up such a good historical document?

>

>Dougbert

>

>- - - -

>

> >From the moderator:

>

>Minneapolis AA members Ed Webster and Barry Collins originally

>published The Little Red Book themselves, under the sponsorship of

>the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. They called themselves the

>"Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" from their two last names.

>

>Roughly around the time of Ed Webster's death on June 3, 1971, the

>Hazelden Foundation took over publishing it -- see

>http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html -- and then for many years Hazelden

>was given as the publisher.

>

>The current Amazon.com listing for The Little Red Book, however, now

>has on the copyright page:

>

>Copyright 2007 BN Publishing

>www.bnpublishing.net

>

>This may be a subsidiary of Barnes & Noble, but I cannot determine

>this for sure. See http://www.bn.com/

>


0 -1 0 0
6374 Robert Stonebraker
Beginners lessons: 4D Big Book studies Beginners lessons: 4D Big Book studies 2/22/2010 11:40:00 PM


I first met members of the Fourth Dimension Group at a meeting in a small

office at 350 Royal Palm Way, Palm Beach, Florida in 1985. On this occasion

the chairperson, a tough looking ex-football player, Del H., told me to shut

my mouth or get out the door! Actually, the language was a bit more basic

than that, but I continue to thank God for the good sense that allowed me to

remain in that room and begin listening. I had been reading the Big Book

regularly throughout my nine years of sobriety, but had not properly studied

it; therefore, was living in great ignorance.



Del had been attending meetings Texas, but not staying sober; then he

started STUDYING the Big Book on his own, thereby learning an effective AA

program of action. Living in the spirit of said information kept him sober

till his death in the 1990s.



The not-so-big meeting (maybe 15 members) placed emphasis on Big Book

solutions for the ones who kept getting drunk, as well as newcomers. The

members were taught to read out loud at the meetings from the part of the

basic text which was applicable to their current situation or problem. Del

was adamant concerning not ever telling the seeker the answer - he was

supposed to read it aloud at the meeting . This great method made the

answer sink in: deep and clear!



Interestingly this group would buy newcomers their breakfast at a coffee

shop near an unused nearby real estate office and work them through the

12-Step process in about twelve hours. UNHEARD OF! But yet it worked so

well that the group grew by leaps and bounds, and other once-antagonistic

groups began sending their hard cases. But after Del's demise, the group

eventually folded.



In 1987 the modus operandi changed when yours truly started a somewhat

similar style meeting in Santa Monica, California. This new group became a

systematic: "teaching-line-and-verse-directly-from-the-Big

Book-style-meeting," but this was no longer a 'problem solving' meeting.

We studied through page 103 in about thirteen weeks, then started over

again.



RICHMOND, INDIANA:



In 1989, my new wife, Deanna and I started a near same format AA

meeting in Richmond, Indiana. These meetings were no fun meetings, e.g., no

experience, strength or hope, nor were [are] opinions allowed. No fun!! We

teach and the audience listens! Yes, but members did come! About 20 of

these meetings in now exist in NYC, California, Florida, Ohio, Kentucky and

Indiana.



So, this completes your I-am-sure-too-long-of-an-answer: Del H. started the

early Florida meetings in the mid 1980s, Then, Yours Truly, started the

current 'teaching style' Fourth Dimension Group Meetings in 1987.



For further Fourth Dimension Group information, meeting handouts, AA

recordings, 4D meeting schedule [incomplete], popular AA websites and much

more, go to: http://www.4dgroups.org



Bob



P.S. There are plans in the making for a 4D history booklet



P.S. For the sake of further research, the full name of now deceased

Florida founder, Del H., available upon request.


0 -1 0 0
6375 jenny andrews
RE: Early AA beginners lessons Early AA beginners lessons 2/22/2010 5:40:00 AM


From tcumming and jennylaurie:



- - - -



From: t <tcumming@nc.rr.com> (tcumming at nc.rr.com)



The first two paragraphs .... does that make any sense? If the AA's in Cleveland

were being stretched so thin answering those "many hundreds of pleas for help"

just how much time could they devote to "actively pursuing drunks" off barstools

and street corners? Yeah, I know that a lot of those pleas were from family

members rather than the drunks themselves [who might have been on stools or

street corners], but my take on the history of that time is that as soon as that

was determined, the AAs moved on to other prospects that were at their bottom

and wanting to quit drinking ... not needing to be dragged to the meetings.



I am sure it did happen some, but probably not that different than today. Newly

sober member gets enthusiastic about the program and goes out trying to 'save'

his old drinking buddies/family members .... AND IT WORKS!!!! either the buddy

starts coming to meeting too, or more often, they both go out and get drunk

together again.

______________________________



"Initial growth in Alcoholics Anonymous took place in Cleveland, Ohio. Clarence

S. and the guys went out actively pursuing drunks and brought them off bar

stools and street corners. We don't do that today, but we were doing it back

then [late 1930's and 1940's]. And it worked!"

"In early 1940, when there were about 1,000 members of AA, more than half were

from Cleveland. The book 'AA Comes of Age' talks about it on pages 20 and 21:

'It was soon evident that a scheme of personal sponsorship would have to be

devised for the new people. Each prospect was assigned an older AA, who visited

him at his home or in the hospital, instructed him on AA principles, and

conducted him to his first meeting.' So even back in the early days the sponsor

was taking the sponsee to meetings and getting together with him, rather than

having the sponsee track the sponsor down. 'AA Comes of Age' continues by

saying, 'But in the face of many hundreds of pleas for help, the supply of

elders could not possibly match the demand. Brand-new AA's, sober only a month

or even a week, had to sponsor alcoholics still drying up in hospitals.'"

______________________________



Probably just me, but this article comes off as a bad sales pitch that I've

heard too many times -- Old AA was so much better than New AA ... New AA is just

plain lazy, and lets treatment centers do all it's work, people in the New AA

just won't help the poor suffering alcoholic. And come to think of it, didn't a

certain series of articles in the Cleveland paper have 'just a little' bit to do

with that flood of hundreds of pleas for help?



The article goes on to say in the fourth paragraph:

______________________________



"During the winter of 1941 the Crawford Group (founded in February 1941)

organized a separate group to help newcomers through the Steps. By the first

issue of the Cleveland Central Bulletin, October 1942, the Crawford 'Beginners'

Class' was listed as a separate meeting. And in the second issue, in November

1942, there was an article entitled 'Crawford Men's Training.' This refers to

possibly the first 'Beginners' Class.' 'The Crawford Men's Training System has

been highly acclaimed to many. Old AA's are asked to come to these meetings with

or without new prospects, where new prospects will be given individual attention

just as though they were in a hospital .... it was during that detox that

sometimes ten and twenty AA members came to visit the new person. And each hour

the prospect was awake he would hear someone's story -- over and over again ....

'The Miles Group reports they have enjoyed unusual success with their training

meetings. The newcomer is not permitted to attend a regular AA meeting until he

has been given a thorough knowledge of the work' .... You didn't just sit there

-- you had already completed the steps when you went to your first AA meeting.

'From 15 to 20 participate at each training meeting and new members are

thoroughly indoctrinated'" .... etc., etc.

______________________________



In these quotes, the author of this talk is saying that the participants in the

Beginner Classes "WORKED / COMPLETED" the Steps ... yet the quotes he gives from

each of those Beginner Classes use the terms:



**given individual attention

**hear someone's story

**given a thorough knowledge of the work

**thoroughly indoctrinated

**more advantageously present the Twelve Steps

**discussed

**for the purpose of acquainting



Studying the steps is not the same as taking the steps. The language quoted from

the individual Beginner Meeting sources use terms more in line with introducing,

presenting, discussing and studying the 12 Steps ... so the newcomer will be

given a fair understanding of what will need to be done to learn how to live

sober while practicing the AA program. I just don't see any of them presenting

their Beginner Meetings as a way to WORK or COMPLETE the 12 Steps in their few

weeks together.



The letter from Bobbie B., Bill W.'s secretary, says (about these pamphlets used

for beginners lessons) that "very few have caused any controversy." And "Ruth

recalled that the classes were discontinued in the mid-1950s as the result of

the publication of the book 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions' by Alcoholics

Anonymous Publishing Inc. In the Miami area the 'Twelve and Twelve' replaced

both the 'Big Book' and the 'Little Red Book' and 'Step Studies' replaced the

'Beginners' Classes.' In the process, the period for taking the Steps was

expanded and modified from 4 weeks to somewhere in between 12 and 16 weeks."



My own perspective as to why the Beginner's classes died away is very different,

and has to do with creating controversy, and the adoption of our 12 Traditions.



The "controversy" part ... when the Grapevine started publishing those articles

on 4 areas where Beginner's Classes were held... well, some were followed up in

the Letters to the Editor column ... and not always with glowing recommendations

[check our group archives for back in 2005 I think, the original GV articles and

the follow-up Letters were posted to this group].



The "12 Traditions" part ... in most places the Beginner Classes were being

used as an introduction to the AA program and unfortunately, were REQUIRED to be

completed before a new member could join AA by attending regular meetings. After

the Traditions were adopted [and the 12&12 was published] it became really hard

to reconcile required Beginner Classes with our Third Tradition... "The only

requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking."

NOT attending 4-6 Beginner classes, with or without other requirements included

in various parts of the country such as having a sponsor vouch for you, passing

a qualifying interview with a supervising board, COMPLETING all 12 Steps, etc.



I just can't imagine requiring someone to go to classes and complete all 12

steps before they could join AA. And I can only imagine how many may have rushed

to complete the steps in only 4 weeks and then decided that they didn't need AA

... after all hadn't they finished the Steps and got sober? - what more did AA

have to offer. To a 30-day-sober brain that might well have made some sort of

sense.



- - - -



jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



These "boot camps" seem much more structured and prescriptive than

the account in the Big Book (A Vision for You), viz: "... though they knew they

must help other alcoholics if they would remain sober, that motive became

secondary. It was transcended by the happiness they found in giving themselves

for others. They shared their homes, their slender resources, and gladly devoted

their spare hours to fellow-sufferers. They were willing, by day or night, to

place a new man (sic) in hospital and visit him afterward... A year and six

months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing much of each

other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little

gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly thinking how

they might present their discovery to some newcomers. In addition to these

casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night of the week for

a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of

life. Aside from the fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide

time and place where new people might bring their problems ... Many a distracted

wife has visited this house to find loving and understanding companionship among

women who knew her problem, to hear from the lips of their husbands what had

happened to them, to be advised how her own mate might be hospitalized and

approached when next he stumbled. Many a man, yet dazed from the hospital

experience, has stepped over the threshold into freedom. Many an alcoholic who

entered there came away with an answer. He succumbed to that gay crowd inside,

who laughed at their own misfortunes and understood his. Impressed by those who

visited him at the hospital, he capitulated entirely when, later, in an upper

room .... he heard the story of some man whose experience closely tallied with

his own ... The very practical approach to his problems, the absence of

intolerance of any kind, the informality (emphasis added), the genuine

democracy, the uncanny understanding which these people had were irresistible

... Under only slightly different conditions, the same thing is taking place in

many eastern cities ..."



- - - -



Original message no. 6348:



EARLY AA BEGINNERS LESSONS

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6348


0 -1 0 0
6376 Jason Clemons
Wytheville, Virginia -- Old Man Vaughn Wytheville, Virginia -- Old Man Vaughn 3/4/2010 3:35:00 PM


I am seeking any information on the origins of

AA in and around Wytheville, Virginia. There

was a recent celebration of the 59th anniversary

of the Wytheville Group (Feb. 9th) and there

were rumors that the group was founded by one

of the Vaughn brothers who were responsible for

a booming furniture business



http://www.vaughanfurniture.com/About/tabid/56/Default.aspx



in the area.



Thank you,

Jason Clemons



--

Learning how to live in the greatest peace, partnership, and brotherhood

with all men and women, of whatever description, is a moving and fascinating

adventure.



Jason Clemons

601 B Washington Street

Blacksburg, VA 24060

(h) (540)552-3819

(c) (540)230-4329


0 -1 0 0
6377 Arthur S
RE: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View 3/5/2010 7:53:00 AM


The author of the "Member's Eye View" talk was

Allan McG of Southern California



Info below is from Bob P's unpublished history of AA:



"A Member's-Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous," one of the most powerful and

popular pamphlets in the AA library, almost never saw the light of day.



Trustee Bayard P, an executive with a large advertising agency in New York,

while on a business trip to California with his wife, Majorie (also active in

the program), look up an old associate at the agency (and fellow AA member),

Allan McG.



(Parenthetically, past trustee George D remembers Allan McG as a leader in

Southern California AA when he joined in 1961, and says of him, "He was the most

interesting man I ever met, the most stimulating. He was brilliantly articulate

and touched many, many people.")



When Allan met Bayard and Marjorie P for dinner, he mentioned to them that he

was making his annual speech about Alcoholics Anonymous to a class at UCLA which

he had done for a number of years They asked him if he had a manuscript of the

talk, which he later showed them; it was called "A Members Eye View of AA"



"We were absolutely thrilled by it," recalls Bayard. "It was the best thing of

the kind we'd ever read, and we asked Allan's permission to take it back to New

York and see if it could be an AA publication. Which we did."



Cheers



Arthur


0 -1 0 0
6378 michellemirza@ymail.com
Dr. Elizabeth Beckman Dr. Elizabeth Beckman 3/5/2010 12:11:00 PM


Hello! Anyone ever came across the name "Dr. Elizabeth Beckman?" She was a

pioneer in the field of Psychology (1940s)and may have taught at a University in

Peensylvania. I was told that one of her students was inspired by her work and

went on to become one of our early pioneers in a particular city. Any clue? Your

help is greatly appreciated. M


0 -1 0 0
6379 James Bliss
Re: The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? 3/5/2010 6:42:00 PM


Hazelden does still publish the Littel Red Book:

http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=3831&sitex=10020:22372\

:US




Interesting that they list the year published as 1967. But, this would

match the date Tom lists for the first sticker.



I would be interested in the copyright in the front of the BN version of the

Little Red Book, the year and what it says.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
6380 Charles Knapp
Re: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View 3/4/2010 7:21:00 PM


From Charles Knapp, Don B. (Chicago),

John Schram, and Gary Becktell.



- - - -



From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>

(cpknapp at yahoo.com)



Hello,



Allen McG., from Southern California (Area 5) authored this pamphlet. He gave

an annual talk to some class at UCLA.



Around 1968 or 1969 a trustee from New York was visiting California and met

Allen McG. Allen mentioned to the trustee about his annual talk and showed him

a copy of his speech entitled "A Member's View of AA." The Trustee was very

impressed and asked if he could take it back to New York and show it to the

Conference Literature Committee.



It was very well received with one exception -- it was only one person's view.

Nevertheless it was submitted and approved by the 1970 General Service

Conference.



My information came from notes I made off of a tape of Allen.



I do not have his sobriety date, but he did say on tape that he placed only one

condition on the use of his speech. He asked that nothing be changed from his

original talk. I do not know if his wish was granted, but there is a small

disclaimer at the beginning of the pamphlet that makes me believe it was.



I am no longer in So Cal, but maybe some one there can shed more light on this

member and his talk.



Hope this helps.



Charles in Wisconsin



- - - -



From Don B.



According to Tex Brown in Chicago, the author was Alan McG.



I knew Tex a long time. His sobriety date was February 1948 and he was 53 years

sober when he died. He had been to every International, including Cleveland.

When he told you something you could take it to the bank. I spent a lot of time

with him, he was a good friend of Tom Powers and many of the real old timers.



Don B.

Panel 53 Area 19 Chicago

Past Delegate



- - - -



From: "John Schram" <lasenby327@surfree.com>

(lasenby327 at surfree.com)



and "Gary Becktell" <gk@kitcarson.net>

(gk at kitcarson.net)



Alan McGinnis wrote "A Member's Eye View Of Alcoholics Anonymous."


0 -1 0 0
6381 Tom Hickcox
Re: The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? 3/5/2010 10:38:00 PM


At 17:42 3/5/2010, James Bliss wrote:



>Hazelden does still publish the Littel Red Book:

>http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=3831&sitex=10020:2237\

2:US


>

>Interesting that they list the year published as 1967. But, this would

>match the date Tom lists for the first sticker.

>

>I would be interested in the copyright in the

>front of the BN version of the Little Red Book, the year and what it says.



I think there is a bit of confusion starting with

the original question. It looks as if the book

was listed on the BN web site, which apparently

has nothing to do with Barnes & Noble. The books

listed are sold thru Amazon, which is how I bought the book.



The copyright statement is © 2010 Wilder

Publications. Following this is the

statements: "This book is a product of its time

and does not reflect the same values as it would

if it were written today. Parents might wish to

discuss with their children how views on race

have changed before allowing them to read this classic work.



"All rights reserved. Printed in the United

States of America. No part of this book may be

used or reproduced in any manner without written

permission except for brief quotations for review purposes only."



Wilder Publications, Inc.

PO Box 243

Blacksburg, VA 24060



ISBN 10: 1-60459-948-0

ISBN 13: 978-60459-948-0



I am not competent to comment on the legalities

here, but I assume Hazelden still holds the

copyright to The Little Red Book. Wilder gives

them no credit yet their book is a direct copy.



Coll-Webb came up with a new copyright when they

had to update The Little Red Book when the Second

Edition Big Book came out with different

pagination. That copyright was in 1957 and was

used until another copyright was issued in 1975,

this time to Hazelden. There are a lot of

listings on eBay for the "1957 Edition."



I have suspected the original small format book

came out in the middle '60s as the Hazelden

address has a zip code and there isn't an ISBN

number for the book. Zip codes came out in 1963

and ISBNs in 1968. Hazelden put their sticker in

the 1967 Coll-Webb Little Red Book, the 21st

Printing. I had not seen their claim that they

started publishing it in 1967, but, as James says, that date fits.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
6382 Bill Lash
RE: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View 3/7/2010 8:26:00 AM


The author of the pamphlet "A Member's Eye View" is Allen McG. If you would

like to hear him speak, he used to do this really great Beginners' Workshop.

A copy of the 5-CD set of one of these Beginners' Workshops he did in

Brentwood CA in July 1968 can be purchased by going to

http://www.justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa & searching under his

name. The topics he talks about on this CD set are:



CD #1 - What is the point of my staying sober?

CD #2 - Is it necessary to have a spiritual experience?

CD #3 - What are the old ideas and how do you let go of them?

CD #4 - After the old ideas, then what?

CD #5 - Recap



Peace.


0 -1 0 0
6383 Tom
Question about royalty distributions Question about royalty distributions 3/8/2010 11:58:00 AM


I remember seeing a schedule of royalties received, by person, by year, for all

the AA publications.



I thought I saw it on this site, but I searched and just couldn't find it. Does

anybody know where I would find that?



Thanks,



Tomv


0 -1 0 0
6384 Michael Oates
Re: 182 Clinton Street Now For Sale 182 Clinton Street Now For Sale 3/5/2010 8:58:00 AM


Will there be a drive to buy it like Dr. Bob's

855 Ardmore home?



It is one of the greatest gifts for me to know

that I have purpose beyond myself.



Michael S. Oates

D.O.S. 09-23-1993



- - - -



From: Bent Christensen

<bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>

(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)



I'm in for $100 if someone will open this for

the public :-)



Bent Christensen

Valmuevej 17

6000 Kolding

Tlf. 50 12 17 43 Bemærk nyt nummer!



http://www.pass-it-on.dk/



http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/StoreBog_studie/



(From GC the moderator: that Yahoo

group is a Danish Big Book study group.

"Store Bog" is Danish for Big Book.)


0 -1 0 0
6385 J. Lobdell
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/5/2010 9:46:00 AM


From Jared L. and Arthur S.



- - - -



> Were the Akron meetings before the move to

> Kings School AA meetings or Oxford Group meetings

> attended by some drying out drunks?

>

> Asked by Jim L. from Columbus, Ohio.



- - - -



From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



As I understand it, the meetings at Henrietta's were OG meetings; those at Bob's

house may be considered AA meetings even when (if) they were officially OG

meetings.



- - - -



From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com>

(arthur.s at live.com)



They were both up to October 1939 when meetings moved to Dr Bob's house. Later

due to their size meetings moved to King School in January 1940.



The meetings at T Henry and Clarace Williams home were Oxford Group meetings and

reputedly continued up to 1954.



When the meetings were at the Williams' home, alcoholics and their spouses

usually attended together. After a certain point the alcoholics ("the alcoholic

squad") would go to a separate part of the house and meet together by themselves

and with prospects - this was the origin of closed meetings.


0 -1 0 0
6386 James Bliss
Re: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member s Eye View 3/9/2010 5:47:00 PM


From James Bliss and Edward <elg3_79@yahoo.com>



You can also download these from XA Speakers at:

http://www.xa-speakers.org/



and search for Allen McG



- - - -



Bill Lash wrote:

>

> The author of the pamphlet "A Member's Eye View" is Allen McG. If you would

> like to hear him speak, he used to do this really great Beginners' Workshop.

> A copy of the 5-CD set of one of these Beginners' Workshops he did in

> Brentwood CA in July 1968 can be purchased by going to

> http://www.justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa

> <http://www.justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa> & searching

> under his name. The topics he talks about on this CD set are:

>

> CD #1 - What is the point of my staying sober?

> CD #2 - Is it necessary to have a spiritual experience?

> CD #3 - What are the old ideas and how do you let go of them?

> CD #4 - After the old ideas, then what?

> CD #5 - Recap

>

> Peace.

>

>


0 -1 0 0
6387 Liana
Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 7/4/2010 5:31:00 PM


What could the group tell me about the history

and development of Tradition 10 ?



thanks

Liana



- - - -



From the moderator:



This would mean a discussion of how Bill W.

made use of an account he had read about the

Washingtonian movement -- an account which

some have argued was inaccurate in some of

the things that it said.



But it would also be interesting to look at

the historical development of Bill W's ideas

about the issues involved in the Tenth Tradition,

if this is possible.



But I don't know whether this is in fact possible.



Do we have earlier and later versions of his

ideas about AA taking political stands, and AA

involvement in public controversy?



The transmutation of the Oxford Group into Moral

Re-Armament in 1938, and its greater and greater

involvement in political activism -- on one

occasion (Frank Buchman's statement about

Adolf Hitler) with disastrous consequences --

may also have pointed out to Bill W. the wisdom

of keeping AA out of that kind of thing.



Moral Re-Armament (remember that the old Oxford

Group no longer existed by 1938-39) was

increasingly poking its fingers into every

political and labor controversy it could find.

Although Bill W. TALKED ABOUT the Washingtonians

in his chapter on the Tenth Tradition, it was

surely Moral Re-Armament which he was now

predicting was going to wither away and lose

most of its influence in the world.



And the disputes taking place in American society

during the 1930's, 40's, and 50's were often

bitter and devisive: conservative politicians had

already been claiming that laws forbidding child

labor and giving the vote to women were Communist

/Socialist plots to destroy American democracy.

We had Herbert Hoover vs. Franklin D.

Roosevelt, isolationism vs. getting involved in the

Second World War, and those who favored U.S.

involvement in the Korean war vs. those who

wanted us out of Korea. And then the trial of

Alger Hiss in 1950 and the arrest of Julius and

Ethel Rosenberg in that same year started a Red

scare. Senator Joseph McCarthy began his

anti-Communist witch hunt in February 1950.



This was all right before the 12 Steps and 12

Traditions book was published. NOT a wise time

for a group like AA to get involved in political

controversies of ANY sort, if they could avoid

it.



It should also be noted that the great teachers

of the New Thought movement which had so much

influence on early AA (Emmet Fox's Sermon on the

Mount and James Allen's As a Man Thinketh)

counseled that when we were attacked by somebody

else, the worse thing possible was to respond

with an angry, out-of-control, bitter counter-

attack.



When you were attacked, you should respond by

blessing the other person, praying that they

might find peace and an end to their anger and

so on, and by thinking instead of God and love

and the goodness of the universe. If we think

about controversy and conflict all the time,

we will only find ourselves involved in more

and more controversy and conflict -- that was

the basic teaching of New Thought -- "as a

man thinketh" so shall his life become. It

was an unbreakable law of nature, they said.



So there was a deeper underlying spiritual

principle involved in the Tenth Tradition,

as well as the desire to keep AA out of the

bitterly devisive American political scene

of that period.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
6388 egrott2
You all are co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous You all are co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous 3/10/2010 5:03:00 PM


Somewhere, my mind latched onto the following

quote in an address to AA:



"You are all now the co-founders of Alcoholics

Anonymous..." ...... of the future?



I had remembered it as being a quote from Lois W.

at one of the AA International Conventions but

I can't find it referenced anywhere. I don't

think I made this up but, well, I never know...



Any help in locating the source of this quote

(and the context in which it was said) would be

much apreciated.


0 -1 0 0
6389 Arthur S
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/10/2010 10:45:00 PM


Around March/April 1935, Henrietta Sieberling, encouraged by her friend

Delphine Weber, organized a Wednesday-night Oxford Group meeting at the home

of T Henry and Clarace Williams, 676 Palisades Dr in Akron. The meeting was

started specifically to help Dr Bob with his drinking problem. Prior to this

OG meetings were held on Thursday nights at the OG West Hill group (address

unknown to me). There were no meetings at Henrietta Sieberling's gatehouse

home on the Sieberling estate.



When meetings moved to Dr Bob's house in October 1939 it marked the Akron

Group's separation from the OG. Up to this time the meetings at the Williams

home during 1939 may well have been considered both OG and AA meetings due

to the mix of people involved and AA had not as yet evolved the tradition of

non-affiliation. The same would be true of meetings held at Bill W's home on

Clinton St up to around August 1937.



Since the AA Fellowship marks its beginning as June 1935, the meetings held

under the auspices of the OG in Akron and NY were also meetings of the

"alcoholic squads" of both cities which later became the AA Fellowship.

Perhaps, for the question of whether early fellowship meetings were OG meetings

or AA meetings, the most appropriate answer might be "yes." Care should be

exercised to not try to retrofit today's standards of what is or isn't an AA

meeting to the situation that existed in the latter 1930s.



The fellowship of alcoholics (which consisted of only two groups) began

using the name Alcoholics Anonymous well prior to the publication of the Big

Book in April 1939 (its foreword begins with "We, of Alcoholics Anonymous,

are more than one hundred men and women ..." and later states "When writing

or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our Fellowship to

omit his personal name, designating himself instead as "a member of

Alcoholics Anonymous"). When Cleveland separated from Akron and the OG in

May 1939 they identified themselves as Alcoholics Anonymous.



The members in Akron had a tremendous affection for T Henry and Clarace

Williams and their separation from the OG in October 1939 was painful due to

that great affection. I would tend to designate the meetings at Dr Bob's

house as unambiguous AA meetings.



- - - -



THIS IS A RESPONSE AND CONTINUATION OF THE DISCUSSION

in Message 6385 between Arthur S. and Jared L., which

in turn was in answer to the question asked in Message

6372 by Jim L. from Columbus, Ohio:



> Were the Akron meetings before the move to

> Kings School AA meetings or Oxford Group meetings

> attended by some drying out drunks?



- - - -



In that message, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) said:



As I understand it, the meetings at Henrietta's were OG meetings; those at

Bob's house may be considered AA meetings even when (if) they were

officially OG meetings.



- - - -



And "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com>

(arthur.s at live.com) said:



They were both up to October 1939 when meetings moved to Dr Bob's house.

Later due to their size meetings moved to King School in January 1940.



The meetings at T Henry and Clarace Williams home were Oxford Group meetings

and reputedly continued up to 1954.



When the meetings were at the Williams' home, alcoholics and their spouses

usually attended together. After a certain point the alcoholics ("the

alcoholic squad") would go to a separate part of the house and meet together

by themselves and with prospects - this was the origin of closed meetings.


0 -1 0 0
6390 pbcliberal
Re: Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 3/10/2010 10:29:00 PM


In the years after Buchman's intemperate remarks, theologians and

philosophers that had helped underpin not-necessarily-religious

spirituality also were taking political positions, most of them liberal.



Reinhold Niebuhr, generally credited with the writing the serenity

prayer, was a prominent leader in the American socialist party. His

contemporaries at Union Theological Seminary included Dietrich

Bonhoeffer who founded an anti-Nazi church and wrote prison epistles on

religion-less Christianity, and was executed by the Nazis for an alleged

attempt to assassinate Hitler.



It probably took tremendous will to resist what were surely great

pressures to apply an army of newly sober alcoholics who now were

seeking higher purpose to address the political ills of the world.



A personal introduction: I have rejoined the fellowship after 18 years

of absence that followed 13 years of sobriety. It is good to be back.


0 -1 0 0
6391 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 3/11/2010 2:45:00 AM


From Laurie Andrews and Tom (tomvlll)



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Remarkable forbearance from Bill, given that

he was a crusty Republican and used to fire off

vitriolic letters to Franklin D. Roosevelt when

he was drunk!



- - - -



From: "Tom" <tomvlll@yahoo.com>

(tomvlll at yahoo.com)



I think another issue which led to the tradition

was the problem raised when Marty Mann put

Bill Wilson's and Dr. Bob's names on her

National Committee on Alcoholism letterhead,

naming them as board members (or advisors?).


0 -1 0 0
6392 Arthur S
RE: Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 3/11/2010 12:21:00 PM


What's wrong with the explanation given by Bill W in AA Comes of Age on the

origin of Tradition Ten (pages 123-128)? It seems unambiguous and to the

point.



Many seeds of the Traditions were spelled out in the Foreword to the First

Edition Big Book in April 1939, among them the statement that "We are not

allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose

anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted."



The Twelve Traditions were defined by Bill W in their long form in an April

1946 Grapevine article ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition"). During

the mid to latter 1940s Bill published a series of explanatory Grapevine

articles on the Traditions that can be found in "The Language of the Heart"

(and which were used for the writing of the 12&12 in 1953 and AA Comes of

Age in 1957). In December 1947, the Grapevine carried a notice that an

important new 48-page pamphlet titled "AA Traditions" was sent to each group

and that enough copies were available for each member to have one free of

charge. It was AA's first piece of literature dedicated totally to the

Traditions. Bill wrote another series of articles on the Traditions in the

early 1950s which pretty much echoed the 1940s articles.



There is no commentary I can find by Bill W regarding or remotely alluding

to the Traditions being influenced by the MRA, conservative politicians, the

2nd World War, Korea, McCarthy, etc. Bill certainly did seek to distance

himself and the fellowship from Frank Buchman after his August 1936 PR

disaster regarding his Hitler comment (which the press reported out of

context and which plagued Buchman for many years). It marked the beginning

of the decline of the OG. The NY Group separated from the OG around August

1937 (Sam Shoemaker separated from the OG/MRA in 1941 and had them vacate

the premises at Calvary House - his dispute with Buchman was amplified in

the press and MRA was losing many adherents).



Bill was inclined to refer to the OG as more of a positive influence on AA

than as a negative one (and there were negative influences). In a July 1949

letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker, Bill W wrote: "So far as I am concerned,

and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual

wellspring at the beginning." Bill later expressed regret that he did not

write to Frank Buchman as well. In AA Comes of Age (pg 29) Bill wrote:

"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character

defects, restitution for harm done and working with others straight from the

Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in

America, and from nowhere else."



According to Nell Wing, Bill W's political viewpoint was conservative

Republican and he was reputedly very anti-FDR and anti-New-Deal.



AA history trivia and myth item: contrary to popular belief, the short form

of the Traditions were not approved at the 1950 International Convention in

Cleveland. What was approved was quite different than the familiar short

form of the Traditions we know today. Prior to voting on the matter, Bill W

was asked to sum up the Traditions for the convention attendees. In his

summation, Bill paraphrased a variation of the Traditions the text of which

is in the book "The Language of the Heart" (pg 121). Notably missing from

what Bill recited to the attendees were the principles embodied in Tradition

Ten of AA having no opinion on outside issues and not drawing the AA name

into public controversy. Nevertheless, the Traditions as recited by Bill

were approved unanimously by the attendees.



Cheers



Arthur


0 -1 0 0
6393 glennccc
Re: Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 3/12/2010 11:02:00 PM


In message #6392 from "Arthur S"

<arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6392



Arthur wrote:



<< What's wrong with the explanation given by Bill W in AA Comes of Age on the

origin of Tradition Ten (pages 123-128)? It seems unambiguous and to the

point.>>



<<There is no commentary I can find by Bill W regarding or remotely alluding to

the Traditions being influenced by the MRA, conservative politicians, the 2nd

World War, Korea, McCarthy, etc.>>



Arthur, on page 123, in the first paragraph of Bill W's explanation of why we

need the Tenth Tradition, which you cited above, Bill W says: "Our fellowship

has never taken sides publicly on any question in this embattled world ....

'Practically never have I heard a heated religious, political, or reform

argument among A.A. members.'"



AA Comes of Age was written to commemorate the great 20th International

Convention in St. Louis in 1955, so in that paragraph Bill W was saying that AA

as such never took sides publicly on any of the great political issues of the 20

year period that ran from 1935 to 1955.



My little comment simply listed (especially for members of the AAHistoryLovers

who live in other parts of the world, and for our younger members too, who

weren't around back then like I was) what the big political issues were which

often divided the U.S. so deeply during the course of those twenty years, the

issues on which (fortunately) AA had "never taken sides publicly."



But then on that same page (page 123), in the second paragraph of Bill W's

explanation of why we need the Tenth Tradition, he was more explicit in

describing these great public political issues:



"In our own times we have seen millions die in political and economic wars often

spurred by religious and racial differences. We live in the imminent possibility

of a fresh holocaust to determine how men shall be governed and how the products

of nature and toil shall be divided among them. That is the spiritual climate in

which A.A. was born ...."



Arthur, just look at the specific words which Bill Wilson used there.



"We have seen millions die in political and economic wars often spurred by

religious and racial differences." Since Bill was talking about the period

between 1935 and 1955, it is clear that he was referring there above all to the

Second World War (1939-1945) and the first holocaust (the killing of six million

Jews by the Nazis).



"We live in the imminent possibility of a fresh holocaust" referred to the

nuclear arms race which began right after the Second World War was over, a race

between (in particular) the U.S. and the Soviet Union to see who could build the

most nuclear weapons. That is what was threatening the world with (this time

around) a nuclear holocaust.



This new threat was being created by a struggle "to determine how men shall be

governed and how the products of nature and toil shall be divided among them."

If we look at the specific words which Bill W. used, it is clear that this meant

the Cold War struggle between Communism and western style democracy.



That's what it was about: Communism had one vision of "how men shall be

governed" and of how the goods produced by farmers and factory workers ("the

products of nature and toil") should be divided up, and capitalism had a very

different theory about how all this should be done.



And this conflict between Communism and capitalism (or however you wish to

describe the two sides) was not only threatening the globe with a third world

war, it was also grievously tearing up the United States internally at that very

time.



Senator Joseph McCarthy began his anti-Communist witch hunt in February 1950.

McCarthy himself headed the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations in

1953 and 1954, and during that time used it for a number of his

Communist-hunting investigations.



McCarthyism attacked not only people whom they regarded as Communists or

Communist sympathizers, but also regarded three other issues as part of the

Communist/Socialist plot to poison, brainwash, and destroy the United States:



(1) polio vaccination,



(2) flouridated water,



(3) and mental health care services (which could of course include alcoholism

treatment centers if they employed psychiatrists and psychotherapists on their

staffs).



Then in 1953, a reaction against McCarthyism began: Arthur Miller produced his

play, "The Crucible," which portrayed McCarthyism as a new version of the Salem

witch trials, and the highly respected broadcast journalist Edward R. Murrow

also began criticizing McCarthyism. By 1954, Murrow was attacking McCarthy

himself as a dishonest fear-monger.



This Cold War struggle that Bill W. was referring to, what he called the

struggle (going on at that time) "to determine how men shall be governed and how

the products of nature and toil shall be divided among them," had also already

erupted into armed conflict. When North Korean forces invaded South Korea on

June 25, 1950, it began the Korean War. When General Dwight Eisenhower became

the Republican candidate for president in 1952, he promised to "go to Korea" to

end the war. With this promise, Eisenhower was able to defeat Adlai Stevenson in

the November elections, and a cease fire ended the major shooting part of the

Korean conflict on 27 July 1953. But when I lived in Dallas, Texas, in the early

1960's, there were still some extreme anti-Communists who were viciously

attacking Eisenhower as a "Communist fellow traveler" because he worked to end

that war.



It was all of this stuff which Bill Wilson was referring to in the first two

paragraphs he wrote in his explanation, in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age

(pages 123-128), as to why AA needed the Tenth Tradition.



Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions was published in 1953, and Alcoholics

Anonymous Comes of Age was written in celebration of the 20th International

Convention in St. Louis in 1955, so there was no need for Bill W. to spell all

of these things out for a U.S. audience.



And when they heard Bill W. advising them, there in the 1950's, that AA as an

organization should not get involved in any of these controversies on ANY side,

AA members of that time knew exactly that this was what he meant.



In AA meetings today, in my part of Indiana, I sometimes hear AA members trying

to talk politics before or after the AA meeting, and viciously attacking the

political figures whom they oppose. Fortunately, it is only on rare occasions,

but even a handful of times is too many. This is behavior which is totally out

of bounds for AA people. It doesn't matter in the slightest which side you are

attacking and which side you are defending. If it is allowed to play any part in

AA fellowship, it will end up destroying the AA program.



Bill Wilson was exactly right in what he said on this topic.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
6394 pbcliberal
Gabriel Heatter broadcast, April 25, 1939 Gabriel Heatter broadcast, April 25, 1939 3/15/2010 12:51:00 AM


Do any audio recordings exist of the Gabriel Heatter interview with the

AA member on "We the People?" There are transcripts

<http://www.eskimo.com/%7Eburked/history/heatter.html> available, but I

can't find the actual audio.



Radio broadcasts during that period were usually live, but "electrical

transcriptions" (usually 16 inch disks) were often made for

the use of commercial sponsors, or for rebroadcast for the west coast.


0 -1 0 0
6395 donaldl.mansell
The Great Fact on p. 164 in the Big Book The Great Fact on p. 164 in the Big Book 3/16/2010 11:27:00 AM


The term "the Great Fact" appears on pg. 164 in the Big Book, and seems to refer

to a deity because of the capital letters. I assume Wilson did not create the

term but can find no reference to an original source. Can anyone shed some light

on this?



- - - -



From the moderator:



The passage you are talking about on page 164 reads as follows:



<<See to it that your relationship

with Him is right, and great events will come to pass

for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact

for us.>>



It seems to me that this passage is saying:



"The Great Fact" =

IF your relationship with God is right

THEN great events will happen for you and many people.



The words "great fact" also appear one other place in the first 164 pages of the

Big Book, on p. 25:



<<The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we

have had deep and effective spiritual experiences*

which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward

life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe.

The central fact of our lives today is the absolute cer-

tainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and

lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has

commenced to accomplish those things for us which

we could never do by ourselves.>>



This seems to me to be saying pretty much the same thing:



"The great fact" =

WHEN we had the right spiritual experience of God

THEN God did revolutionary and miraculous things for us which we could never do

by ourselves.



Or in other words, the words "Great Fact" do not seem to me to be referring to

God himself, but to the fact of what God has done for us. That would be my

reading of it.



Bill Wilson, using early twentieth century literary style, sometimes used

capital letters simply to emphasize words, or to indicate that he was pointing

to something very specific (instead of just any old "great fact" among a large

number of important factual statements). It doesn't necessarily mean that he is

referring to God.



So if you look down to the next paragraph, you can see him capitalizing

"Fellowship of the Spirit" and "Road of Happy Destiny." And that's why we still

capitalize the words "Big Book."



In the early twentieth century -- in fact, going all the way back to the

eighteenth century -- good writers of English capitalized words a whole lot more

than authors have been doing over more recent years. I have seen this change

taking place personally, over the course of my own lifetime, because I was born

the same year that the Big Book was published. I don't capitalize as many words

now when I write formal English prose as I did when I was twenty years old. It

just looks old fashioned and awkward when you write like that nowadays.



But other members of the group may have a different reading of this passage.



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)


0 -1 0 0
6396 Glenn Chesnut
Jack Alexander Jack Alexander 3/17/2010 5:59:00 PM


We have been asked for Jack Alexander's date of birth and for a photograph of

him.

 

Box 459 for February-March 2008

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/en_box459_febmar08.pdf

has a photo of him.



There is also what appears to be a poorer copy of the same photo, cropped down a

bit and (it seems to me) vertically distorted, at

http://www.aa.org.mx/Experiencias.htm

 

Are there any other known photos?

 

That Box 459 article says that "in failing health, Jack Alexander and his wife

Anita retired to Florida, where he died on September 17, 1975," and says that he

was 38 years old when he did the Saturday Evening Post article, so he must have

been born c. 1903.

 

Somewhat puzzlingly, many other places say that Jack Alexander died on September

19, 1975 in St. Louis. Can anyone in our group confirm which date and place is

correct?

 

Thanks!

 

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
6397 Glenn Chesnut
Milton Maxwell Milton Maxwell 3/18/2010 2:23:00 PM


We have been asked for Milton Maxwell's date of birth. If we can also obtain his

date of death, we might as well post that too.

 

The request referred to him as Milton Maxwell M.D., but in my checking around he

seems to have been a Ph.D., not an M.D.

 

Can anyone in our group verify which of those is correct?

 

Thanks!

 

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
6398 J. Lobdell
RE: Milton Maxwell (and Jack Alexander) Milton Maxwell (and Jack Alexander) 3/18/2010 8:18:00 PM


From Jared Lobdell and Jim Blair



- - - -



From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



I find in my notes (unattributed I'm sorry to say) that Milton A. Maxwell,

Ph.D., was born August 17 1907 and died October 28 1988.



Btw, Jack Alexander was, I believe, b. February 8 1903, but beyond the fact that

he died in Florida in 1975 (perhaps in September), I have no vital statistics on

him.



Milton Maxwell was a Professor of Sociology and definitely a Ph.D. (University

of Texas, I believe).



- - - -



From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



On the cover of his book, The Alcoholics Anonymous Experience, he gives his name

as Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D.



He was a sociologist.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
6399 Glenn Chesnut
Milton Maxwell Milton Maxwell 3/19/2010 4:35:00 PM


Markings: Your Archives Interchange, Vol. 28, No. 3 (Fall 2008)

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-151_markings_fall08.pdf



A Class A Trustee Whose Research and Writing

Focused on Alcoholism and the A.A. Fellowship



Milton A. Maxwell was elected

to the General Service Board in

1971 and its chairman in 1978.

[WITH PHOTOGRAPH]



Milton A. Maxwell, who served as a Class A (nonalcoholic)

trustee and then chairman of the General Service

Board, traced his interest in A.A. to his time as a minister

when he was approached by a congregant seeking help for a

drinking problem.



Years later, he wrote: "Little did I realize in 1939

when, as Leslie S.'s minister, I suggested Alcoholics

Anonymous to him, that in 1947 I would be a sociologist

doing a Ph.D dissertation on A.A. But such was the case,

and the result is a deep interest in the problem of alcoholism

and particularly in A.A."



The title of that dissertation is "Social Factors in the

Alcoholics Anonymous Program." Maxwell was a sociology

professor at Washington State University when he was

awarded his Ph.D in 1949.



In his dissertation abstract, Maxwell analyses the power of

the A.A. group: "changed social relations are the most effective

means for bringing about personality change--and that

the social interaction in a primary group has the greatest capacity

for bringing about such change."



He wrote or co-wrote 20 articles on the sociological aspects

of alcoholism during his tenure at WSU from 1947 to

1965, and nine while a professor at Rutgers University from

1965 to 1975.



In 1984, he published a full-length book, The AA Experience,

intended for professionals.



Maxwell was elected to the General Service Board of

Alcoholics Anonymous as a Class A (nonalcoholic) trustee

in 1971 and its chairman in 1978. Among the presentations

he gave during his tenure was one on cooperation with non-

A.A. professionals, which he delivered in 1971 at the

Conference: "A.A.'s No. 1 concern should be the quality of

A.A. itself…. This is the most important contribution which

A.A. can make to the total field. Nevertheless, I believe that

A.A. will not have its best future unless it also--and within

the Traditions--continually concerns itself with good twoway

communication with the non-A.A. alcoholism world."



In another presentation, on anonymity, which he gave at

the Conference in 1978, he says: "Originally, being anonymous

was a simple response to the prevailing stigma. It was

aimed at protecting individuals already in the groups and

promised the same protection to anyone thinking about coming

in. Then, from experience, emerged the understanding of

anonymity's spiritual values--for members personally, each

group, and the Fellowship as a whole."



He stepped down from the post in 1982, but continued

to be involved with Alcoholics Anonymous World Services

and A.A. as trustee emeritus. He was 81 years old at his death

in 1988.



The Milton A. Maxwell Collection was donated to the

General Service Office Archives by Charlotte Maxwell about

a year later.



Among that collection is his pamphlet "Alcohol, Man, and

Science," published in 1965 by Washington State University.

In it Maxwell challenges the stereotype of the alcoholic:

"Alcoholism is a progressive illness with a very gradual, frequently

imperceptible, onset…. Many alcoholics are hidden

from recognition by others, and even from themselves, by the

stereotype of late-stage alcoholics--perhaps the Skid

Row type or even the 'Lost Weekend' type. But the

majority of our alcoholics, at a given time, are not

late-stage alcoholics. One study showed that almost 70

percent of the male alcoholic patients at a Seattle private

hospital for alcoholics were married and living with

spouse; 95 percent of them were employed."



In another of his writings--"Hidden Alcoholic

Employees"--Maxwell again took up the case of the alcoholic

who escapes notice: "the alcoholic employee not only

can be a 'hidden man' but usually is. Late-stage alcoholism

which seriously interferes with job performance can seldom

be hidden and is seldom tolerated. But early-stage and even

much of middle-stage alcoholism can be hidden--and most

problem drinkers in industry are in these stages."



In his research, Maxwell investigated the psychology of

the alcoholic. In an article he wrote in 1950 ("Alcohol

Addiction as a Sociogenic Personality Disorder"), he says:

"alcohol effects an illusory adjustment which, in the course

of time, creates new maladjustments, new problems, new

tensions involving family, friends, and job." Also from the

same article: "self-esteem is shaken, guilt and remorse set in,

and alcohol has the capacity of narcotizing this pain ...."



Among Maxwell's works is an article on the Washingtonian

Movement that is familiar to A.A. members. In it Maxwell

compares that temperance society of the 1840s with Alcoholics

Anonymous. Begun in Baltimore in 1841, the Washingtonians

numbered in the tens of thousands (and possibly well over

100,000) within a couple of years. "If there is uncertainty concerning

the number of alcoholics temporarily helped or permanently

rehabilitated ... there is no question that the movement

made a tremendous impact," according to Maxwell.

That impact, though, was relatively brief, with membership

peaking in the mid-1840s and petering out soon thereafter.



In comparing the Washingtonian Movement to A.A.,

Maxwell says that whereas there were obvious similarities,

"the differences can be brought out ... by an analysis of the

Alcoholics Anonymous program--its principles, practices

and content."



The most significant differences, and the reasons that A.A.

has endured and the Washingtonians did not, says Maxwell

in his article: are A.A.'s exclusively alcoholic membership;

its singleness of purpose, which includes steering clear of

"outside issues;" that it provides a program of recovery,

including the Twelve Steps; its principle of anonymity; and

the Traditions.



As it was noted in a workshop of the 1983 General Service

Conference, Maxwell's account of the Washingtonians "revealed

that one cause of its collapse was the ego-stroking that

the movement encouraged" and that "a clear-cut primary

purpose became diffused into a muddle of worthy causes."



In his farewell talk as chairman of the General Service

Board, at the 1982 Conference, Maxwell said: "In a general

society characterized by competitive striving for status, recognition,

power, and their material symbols, A.A. has a recovery

program based upon opposite values--upon learning

and an unself-centered way of life .... Furthermore, A.A. has

a collective life--Traditions, Concepts, minimum of structure--

that is remarkably in harmony with and supportive of

the basic recovery program."



Soon after Maxwell had been elected Board chairman, Dr.

Jack Norris, who served as a trustee on the Board from 1951

to 1978, had this to say about the new chairman: "I believe

Milton Maxwell is too little appreciated in A.A., because he

is so quiet. But because of his understanding heart, I think

Milton may be A.A.'s greatest nonalcoholic friend in the field

of alcoholism."


0 -1 0 0
6401 Charlie C
Milton Maxwell Milton Maxwell 3/20/2010 5:14:00 PM


Here's that info again Glenn:



I dug around a little, and seeing that Milton Maxwell had been a

sociology prof at Washington State in Pullman for many years looked in

some standard sources, no luck, but then contacted their library and

received the following information from a fellow librarian there. (Most

college archives, usually in their libraries, keep some sort of faculty

bio file...)



"Milton Andrew Maxwell. Born August 12, 1907 in Beecher Illinois.

Attended high school in Rowena, Texas. Parents Daniel and Bertha, father

was a "Minister, Evangelical and Reformed Church." Wife (at time of

this 1947 paperwork, anyway) was Charlotte Catherine Maxwell. Two

children (again, as of 1947), Douglas and Ross.



Degrees were: A.B. in 1929 from Elmhurst (ILL) College, B.D. in 1931

from Chicago Theological Seminary, M.A. in 1944 from University of

Texas. Left to come to WSU with his PhD unfinished, but notes say he

finished it through U of Texas in 1949. His wife, by the way, received

a B.S. in Chemistry in 1933 from the Florida State College for Women.



Held the following positions before WSU:

Social Research Assistant, 1930-1931, Chicago Congregational Union

Minister, 1931-1934, 1st Congregational Church, Ault, Colo.

Minister, 1934-1940, Community Church, Flossmoor, Ill.

Minister, 1940-1945, University Community Church, Austin, Tex.

Part-time instructor in Sociology, 1943-1945, University of Texas



Hired at WSU (well, then WSC, as we only became WSU in 1959) in 1945,

remained here until 1965 at which point he resigned to take another

position. He had some short periods away - resigned in 1960 to "take

another position" and returned one year later. Was on sabbatical and

then unpaid personal leave in 1957-1958 at Yale Univ. Center of Alcohol

Studies."



Charlie C.

IM = route20guy



"A flittin stane gaithers nae fog"


0 -1 0 0
6402 Jim Myers
Re: Milton Maxwell Milton Maxwell 3/19/2010 9:41:00 PM


On silkworth.net is the following:



The Washingtonian Movement: Comparison With Alcoholics Anonymous



QUART. J. STUD. ALC., VOL. 11, 410-452, 1950.

By Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Sociology, State College of

Washington, Pullman, Washington



(From Jim M of silkworth.net - Please note above: By Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D.)



COMPARISON WITH ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS



It is apparent that the Washingtonian societies, when they were most effective

in the rehabilitation of alcoholics, had a great many similarities to Alcoholics

Anonymous. These similarities might be listed as follows:

1. Alcoholics helping each other.

2. The needs and interests of alcoholics kept central, despite mixed membership,

by predominance of numbers, control, or the enthusiasm of the movement.

3. Weekly meetings.

4. The sharing of experiences.

5. The fellowship of the group or its members constantly available.

6. A reliance upon the power of God.

7. Total abstinence from alcohol.

Most Washingtonian groups probably failed to meet this ideal program, or to

maintain it for long. Even in itemizing the ideal program, some of the

differences between the Washingtonian groups and Alcoholics Anonymous stand out.



The admission of nonalcoholics as members and the incorporation of the

"temperance" purpose - the inducement of total abstinence in nonalcoholics - are

the most striking differences. Furthermore, at their best, the Washingtonian

groups possessed no understanding of alcoholism other than the possibility of

recovery through love and sympathy. Their approach to the problem of alcoholism

and alcohol was moralistic rather than psychological or therapeutic. They

possessed no program for personality change. The group had no resource of ideas

to help them rise above the ideational content locally possessed. Except for

their program of mutual aid they had no pattern of organization or activity

different from existing patterns. There was far too great a reliance upon the

pledge, and not enough appreciation of other elements in their program. Work

with other alcoholics was not required, nor was the therapeutic value of this

work explicitly recognized. There was no anonymity to keep the public from

becoming aware of broken pledges, or to keep individuals from exploiting the

movement for prestige and fame. Finally, there was not enough understanding of

their own therapeutic program to formulate it and thus help the new groups to

establish themselves on a sound and somewhat uniform basis.



The differences can be brought out more clearly by a more detailed, comparative

analysis of the Alcoholics Anonymous program - its principles, practices and

content.



1. Exclusively alcoholic membership.- There are many therapeutic values in the

cohesiveness and solidarity which a group with a common problem can achieve. But

in the light of the Washingtonian experience, the greatest long-run value of an

exclusively alcoholic membership is that it permits and reinforces exclusive

attention to the rehabilitation of alcoholics.



2. Singleness of purpose. - As stated in the masthead of an organizational

publication (23), Alcoholics Anonymous "is not allied with any sect,

denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in

any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is

to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."



Nothing can divide groups more quickly - and certainly destroy the therapeutic

atmosphere effectively - than religious and political controversy. Strong

efforts were made in the Washingtonian movement to minimize sectarian,

theological and political differences, but the movement did not avoid attracting

to itself the hostile emotions generated by these conflicts. Even if it had been

more successful in this regard, it was still caught in all the controversy to

which the temperance cause had become liable. Not only that, but within the

temperance movement itself it eventually became stranded on the issue of moral

suasion versus legal action.



In the light of this experience, the position of Alcoholics Anonymous stands in

decided and hopeful contrast. In refusing to endorse or oppose causes, and

particularly the temperance cause, A.A. is avoiding the greatest handicap which

the Washingtonian movement had. Some temperance leaders may deplore that A.A.

does not give them support, but they have no grounds for complaining that they

are being opposed or hampered by A.A.



The A.A. program also contains a happy formula for avoiding the religious or

theological controversies which could easily develop even within the groups as

presently constituted. This is the use of the term "Power" (greater or higher),

and particularly the phrase "as we understood Him," in referring to this Power,

or God. The tolerance which this phrase has supported is an invaluable asset.



A further value of this single-minded concentration on the rehabilitation of

alcoholics is made obvious by the Washingtonian experience. Whenever, and as

long as, the Washingtonians were working hard at the reclamation of drunkards,

they had notable success and the movement thrived and grew. This would support

the idea that active outreach to other alcoholics is a factor in therapeutic

success and, at the same time, a necessary condition for growth - and even for

survival. Entirely aside from the matter of controversy, then, this singleness

of A.A. purpose is a condition of continued therapeutic success and survival.



3. An adequate, clear-cut program of recovery. - Another great asset of

Alcoholics Anonymous is the ideology which forms the content and context of its

program of recovery, and which has received clear and attractive expression in

the book Alcoholics Anonymous (24) and in other A.A. literature. This ideology

incorporates the much sounder understanding of alcoholism which has been

developed in recent years. It is a pragmatic blend of that which scientific

research, dynamic psychology and mature religion have to offer; and through the

literature of the movement, the members are kept sympathetically oriented to the

developments in these fields.



Accordingly, instead of viewing alcoholism with a moralistic eye on alcohol - as

an evil which ought to be abandoned - A.A. sees alcoholism as an illness,

symptomatic of a personality disorder. Its program is designed to get at the

basic problem, that is, to bring about a change in personality.



This program is simply and clearly stated in the Twelve Steps - augmented by the

"24 hour program" of abstaining from alcohol, and the supporting slogans and

emphases such as "First things first," "Live and let live," "Easy does it,"

"Keep an open mind," honesty, humility, and so forth. Great stress is also put

upon regular attendance at the group meetings, which are characterized by the

informal exchange of experiences and ideas and by a genuinely satisfying

fellowship.



Compared to the Washingtonian brand, the A.A. sharing of experiences is notably

enriched by the psychological insights which have been brought into the group by

A.A. literature and outside speakers. A thorough analysis and catharsis is

specifically asked for in the Twelve Steps - as well as an improvement in

relations to other persons. Work with other alcoholics is required, and the

therapeutic value accruing to the sponsor of new members is distinctly

recognized. The spiritual part of the program is more clearly and inclusively

defined; more soundly based, and more frankly made an indispensable condition of

recovery.



It appears, furthermore, that the A.A. group activity is more satisfactory to

the alcoholic than was the case in many Washingtonian societies. A.A. members

seem to find all the satisfaction and values in their groups that the founders

of the various orders thought were lacking in the Washingtonian groups.



A decided Washingtonian weakness was its general lack of follow-through. In

contrast, A.A. is particularly strong on this point, providing a potent

follow-through in a group setting where self-analysis and catharsis are

stimulated; where new attitudes toward alcohol, self and others are learned;

where the feeling tones are modified through a new quality of relationships;

where, in short, a new way of life is acquired - one which not only enables the

person to interact with his environment (particularly with other persons)

without the use of alcohol, but enables him to do so on a more mature,

satisfying basis.



No doubt a similar change occurred in many (though probably not in most) of the

alcoholic Washingtonians, but it was more by a coincidence, within and without

the societies, of circumstances that were rarely understood and never formulated

into a definite, repeatable program. A.A. is infinitely better equipped in this

respect.



4. Anonymity. - A comparison with the Washingtonian experience underscores the

sheer survival value of the principle of anonymity in Alcoholics Anonymous. At

the height of his popularity, John B. Gough either "slipped" or was tricked by

his enemies into a drunken relapse. At any rate, the opponents of the

Washingtonian movement seized upon this lapse with glee and made the most of it

to hurt Gough and the movement. This must have happened frequently to less

widely known but nevertheless publicly known Washingtonians. Public confidence

in the movement was impaired. Anonymity protects the reputation of A.A. from

public criticism not only of "slips" but also of failures, internal tensions,

and all deviant behaviour.



Equally important, anonymity keeps the groups from exploiting prominent names

for the sake of group prestige; and it keeps individual members from exploiting

their A.A. connection for personal prestige or fame. This encourages humility

and the placing of principles above personalities. Such behaviour not only

generates outside admiration of A.A. but has therapeutic value for the

individual members. There are further therapeutic values in anonymity: it makes

it easier for alcoholics to approach A.A., and it relaxes the new member. It

encourages honest catharsis and utter frankness. It protects the new member from

the critical eyes of certain acquaintances while he experiments with this new

way of life, for fumbling and failure will be hidden.



5. Hazard-avoiding traditions. - Another decisive contrast to the Washingtonian

movement is the development in Alcoholics Anonymous not only of a relatively

uniform program of recovery but also of relatively uniform traditions for

avoiding the usual hazards to which organizations are subject.



In Alcoholics Anonymous there is actually no overhead authority. Wherever two or

three alcoholics get together to attain sobriety on the general basis of the

Twelve Step program they may call themselves an A.A. group. They are free to

conduct their activities as they see fit. As would be expected in a fellowship

of independent groups, all kinds of practices and policies have been tried. A

careful reading of the A.A. publication, A.A. Tradition (25), will reveal how

great the variety has been, here and there. Membership has been limited. Conduct

of groups has been undemocratic. Leaders have exploited the groups for personal

prestige. The principle of anonymity has been violated. Personal and

jurisdictional rivalries have developed. Money, property and organizational

difficulties have disrupted A.A. groups. Members and groups, yielding to their

own enthusiasms and reflecting the patterns of other institutions around them,

have endangered the immediate and ultimate welfare of the A.A. fellowship.

These deviations could have been serious had there not existed a considerable

uniformity in practice and principle.



In the early days of A.A., the entire fellowship was bound together by a chain

of personal relationships - all created on the basis of a common program, a

common spirit and a common tradition. This spirit and this pragmatically

achieved program and tradition were the only guiding principles, and relative

uniformity was not difficult. Alcoholics Anonymous was just a fellowship -

small, informal, poor and unpretentious. But with growth, prosperity and

prestige, the difficulties of getting all groups and members to see the value of

these guiding principles increased. A self-conscious statement and explanation

was needed - and this finally emerged in 1947 and 1948 in the "Twelve Points of

Tradition," elaborated upon in editorials in The A.A. Grapevine (23) and

subsequently published as a booklet (25).



In formulating and stating the reasons for these traditions, Bill W., one of the

founders, has continued the extremely valuable function which he, Dr. Bob and

other national leaders have performed - that of keeping intact the experienced

based program and principles of A.A. Perhaps as important as any other is the

tradition of keeping authority in principles rather than letting it become

vested in offices and personalities. This tradition is supported by the related

principle of rotating leadership, and the concept that leaders are merely the

trusted servants of the group or groups. The hazard-avoiding values of these

traditions are obvious.



The tradition that membership be open to any alcoholic has value in countering

the tendency toward exclusiveness, class-consciousness, cliquishness - and it

helps to keep the groups focused on their main job of helping the "alcoholic who

still suffers."



The tradition of complete self-support of A.A. groups and activities by the

voluntary contributions of A.A. members avoids the dangers inherent in fixed

dues, assessments, public solicitations, and the like - and it is conducive to

self-reliance and self-respect. Furthermore, in minimizing money it maximizes

fellowship.



The tradition that "any considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be

separately incorporated and managed" is important in keeping the A.A. groups

from becoming entangled in the problems of property beyond the minimum necessary

for their own functioning. The tradition of "the least possible organization"

has a similar value. These last three traditions might be summed up as

precautions against the common tendency to forget that money, property and

organization are only means - and that means find their rightful place only when

the end is kept clearly in view. For A.A., these traditions should help to keep

the groups concentrated on their prime purpose: helping alcoholics recover.



The existence of these traditions - and their clear formulation - are assets

which the Washingtonian movement never possessed.



What prognosis for Alcoholics Anonymous is suggested by this comparison with the

Washingtonian movement?



The least that can be said is that the short life of the Washingtonian movement

simply has no parallel implications for A.A. Despite certain but limited

similarities in origins, purpose and early activities, the differences are too

great to draw the conclusion of a similar fate for A.A.



Are the differences, then, of such a nature as to assure a long life for

Alcoholics Anonymous? This much can be said with assurance of consensus: (A) In

the light of our present-day knowledge, A.A. has a sounder program of recovery

than the Washingtonians achieved. (B) A.A. has avoided many of the

organizational hazards which plagued the Washingtonian societies. The success

and growth of A.A. during more than a decade of public life, its present vigour

and its present unity underscore these statements and augur well for the future.



In the writer's judgment, based on a systematic study (26) of A.A., there is no

inherent reason why A.A. should not enjoy an indefinitely continued existence.

How long an existence will depend upon how well the leaders and members continue

to follow the present program and principles - that is, how actively A.A.

members will continue to reach out to other alcoholics; how thoroughly the

remainder of the A.A. program will continue to be practiced, particularly the

steps dealing with catharsis and the spiritual aspects; and, how closely all

groups will be guided by the present traditions.



Finally, the writer would suggest that the value in the traditions lies chiefly

in the avoidance of factors that can easily interfere with keeping the ideal

therapeutic atmosphere found in the small A.A. groups at their best. Most of the

personality change necessary for recovery from alcoholism occurs in these small

groups - and that work is at its very best when there is a genuinely warm,

nonegocentric fellowship. How well this quality of fellowship is maintained in

the small, local groups is offered, therefore, as another condition determining

how bright the future of A.A. will be.



Whatever the worth of these judgments, they point up the potential value to A.A.

of careful, objective research on these and related conditions. This would give

Alcoholics Anonymous another asset that the Washingtonians never had.





Yours in service,

Jim M,

http://www.silkworth.net/


0 -1 0 0
6403 Stephen
Did Bill Wilson and Eddie Rickenbacker ever meet? Did Bill Wilson and Eddie Rickenbacker ever meet? 3/19/2010 6:56:00 PM


I am researching whether or not Eddie Rickenbacker

and Bill Wilson ever met one another during the

course of their lives -- during Bill's training at

Plattsburg, New York, or in France during WW I, or

maybe after AA was founded?



Any information, or suggestions as to where I

could look?



Thank you. Steve A.



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator:



See http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4476



Eddie Rickenbacker story in the 12&12 (Tradition One, page 131)



"Countless times, in as many cities and

hamlets, we reenacted the story of Eddie

Rickenbacker and his courageous company when

their plane crashed in the Pacific. Like us,

they had suddenly found themselves saved from

death, but still floating upon a perilous

sea. How well they saw that their common

welfare came first. None might become selfish

of water or bread. Each needed to consider

the others, and in abiding faith they knew

they must find their real strength. And this

they did find, in measure to transcend all

the defects of their frail craft, every test

of uncertainty, pain, fear, and despair, and

even the death of one."



Bill Wilson also referred to the Eddie Rickenbacker story on a couple of other

occasions, see:



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/27



"Our numbers are considerable. We have size. There is great security in numbers.

You can't imagine how it was in the very first two or three years of this thing

when nobody was sure that anybody could stay sober...Then we were like the

people on Eddie Rickenbacker's raft. Boy, anybody rock that raft, even a little,

and he was sure to be clobbered, that's all, and then thrown overboard. But

today it's a different story."



"Along with greater security in numbers, there has come a certain amount of

liability. The more people there are to do a job, it often turns out, the less

there are. In other words, what is everybody's business is nobody's business. So

size is bound to bring complacency unless we get increasingly aware of what's

going on."



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/57

and http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1695



"I remember very well when this committee started (January 1944) It brought me

in contact with our great friends at Yale, the courageous Dr. Haggard, the

incredible Dr. Jellinek or 'Bunky' as we affectionately know him and Seldon

[Bacon] and all those dedicated people."



"The question arose, could an AA member get into education or research or what

not? Then ensued a fresh and great controversy in AA which was not surprising

because you must remember that in this period we were like people on

Rickenbacker's raft. Who would dare ever rock us ever so little and precipitate

us back in the alcohol sea."


0 -1 0 0
6404 diazeztone
Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics 3/23/2010 4:04:00 PM


Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics

by Frances Larry Brisbane, Maxine Womble.



I found this while researching books and articles

written by Milton Maxwell.



http://books.google.com/books?id=DA7SmDh-X5cC&d



LD Pierce

www.aabibliography.com



summary page for milton maxwell

www.aabibliography.com/milton_a_maxwell.html


0 -1 0 0
6405 JoeA
H. P. Lovecraft H. P. Lovecraft 3/24/2010 11:51:00 AM


I was wondering if anyone knew if Bill Wilson and HP Lovecraft had ever

encountered each other. The Wilsons were at 182 Clinton Street, and H. P.

Lovecraft rented rooms at 169 Clinton Street.



- - - -



169 Clinton Street, Brooklyn, New York. "Something unwholesome -- something

furtive -- something vast lying subterrenely in obnoxious slumber -- that was

the soul of 169 Clinton St. at the edge of Red Hook, and in my great northwest

room 'The Horror at Red Hook' was written."

--HPL in a letter to Bernard Austin Dwyer, March 26, 1927


0 -1 0 0
6406 nuevenueve@ymail.com
Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism 3/24/2010 8:23:00 PM


Hello Group:



Do you know whether there are, anywhere in the world, some libraries with

specialized holdings on alcoholism, AA material, other recovery programs,

addictions and all related items?



Maybe some of the pharmaceutical companies, but libraries where the general

public can have access to the books.



Thank you.


0 -1 0 0
6407 rriley9945@aol.com
Re: Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics 3/24/2010 9:01:00 PM


Frances Brisbane was for the longest time the head of the Social Work program at

SUNY Stony Brook.



- - - -



Original Message from: diazeztone <eztone@hotmail.com>



Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics

by Frances Larry Brisbane, Maxine Womble.



I found this while researching books and articles

written by Milton Maxwell.



http://books.google.com/books?id=DA7SmDh-X5cC&d



LD Pierce

www.aabibliography.com


0 -1 0 0
6408 J. Lobdell
RE: H. P. Lovecraft H. P. Lovecraft 3/24/2010 9:21:00 PM


I can't swear to it, but my recollection is that Lovecraft left Brooklyn Heights

ca 1927, before Bill and Lois were there. It is of course possible they met

when HPL visited Samuel Loveman around New Year's Eve 1933 (HPL's only time back

while Bill was there?), but unless Bill frequented Dauber & Pine's Bookshop on

lower 5th Ave (which I doubt), there's no reason he would have known Loveman.

And HPL was pretty much a teetotaller, besides being a Roosevelt supporter --

not fertile ground for a meeting. But I don't know for sure.



> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> From: joeadams1950@gmail.com

>

> I was wondering if anyone knew if Bill Wilson and HP Lovecraft had ever

encountered each other. The Wilsons were at 182 Clinton Street, and H. P.

Lovecraft rented rooms at 169 Clinton Street.

>


0 -1 0 0
6409 Glenn Chesnut
The outlaw safe cracker The outlaw safe cracker 3/24/2010 10:20:00 PM


Harriet D. has asked us about a line on page 62 in the Big book, in the chapter

on How It Works.

 

This line refers to: "the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged

him."

 

Do any of our experts on early twentieth century U.S. history or literature or

the lives of famous outlaws recognize that as a reference to any specific person

or group of people who would have been well known to the average American in

1939?

 

Did Willie Sutton ever engage in safecracking, or did he just hold a Thompson

submachine gun or a pistol on the tellers and demand the money in their cash

drawers? And had he become well known enough by 1939, that the general public

would have recognized his name?


0 -1 0 0
6410 Glenn Chesnut
Modern A.A. Recovery Rates Modern A.A. Recovery Rates 3/27/2010 1:59:00 PM


From: Harriet Dodd <harriet.dodd@ymail.com> (harriet.dodd at ymail.com)

 

Do we have any idea on AA recovery rates nowadays?

______________________________

 

From the moderator G.C.

 

Yes, the New York A.A. office carried out Triennial Membership Surveys during

the period 1977 through 1989, which show that, of those people who are in their

first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A.

meetings at the end of that year.

 

Also, of those who are in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e.,

those who have completed their initial ninety days, and have thereby

demonstrated a certain willingness to really try the program), 56% will still be

attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year.

 

For more details, see: "Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates:

Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation" (January 1, 2008), by Arthur S.

(Arlington, Texas), Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York), and Glenn C. (South

Bend, Indiana).

 

as Adobe Acrobat PDF file http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

 

or as an MS Word DOC file http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc


0 -1 0 0
6411 Glenn Chesnut
The Big Book and the World''s Best Sellers The Big Book and the World''s Best Sellers 3/27/2010 2:01:00 PM


From: Harriet Dodd <harriet.dodd@ymail.com> (harriet.dodd at ymail.com)

 

How many copies of the Big Book (editions 1-4 in total) have been published to

date?

 

How many copies of the 4th edition have been printed and sold since its

appearance in 2001?

 

How does this compare with the total number of copies that have been sold of the

Bible and similar types of worldwide books?

______________________________

 

From the moderator G.C., see the list of best-selling books at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books

 

The Bible has been around for centuries and centuries. It is estimated that

anywhere from 2.5 billion to more than 6 billion copies have been produced.

 

There have only been two other books up in that league:



It is estimated that 800 million copies of the Koran have been produced since it

was written fourteen centuries ago.

It is estimated that 800 million to 900 million copies of Mao Zedong's Little

Red Book (Quotations from Chairman Mao) were actually bought (although 6.5

billion copies were printed, two thirds of them, roughly, are still sitting on

shelves unsold).



Some other interesting books which are up there in the major leagues are:



Charles Dickens, "A Tale of Two Cities"

J. R. R. Tolkien, "The Lord of the Rings"

H. Rider Haggard, "She"

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "Le Petit Prince" (The Little Prince)

Dan Brown, "The Da Vinci Code"

Beatrix Potter, "The Tale of Peter Rabbit"

Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"

Louise Hay, "You Can Heal Your Life" (a modern New Thought book, a bit like the

A.A. classics Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount" and James Allen, "As a Man

Thinketh")



This internet article says that 30 million copies of the Alcoholics Anonymous

Big Book have been sold.



This puts it in the same league with:



Harper Lee, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

Jacqueline Susann, "Valley of the Dolls"

Margaret Mitchell, "Gone with the Wind"

Anne Frank, "The Diary of Anne Frank"

Collenn McCullough, "The Thorn Birds"



It should be noted that Sigmund Freud, Albert Einstein, Plato, Aristotle, and

St. Augustine don't make it onto this list of best sellers at all. The moral we

can draw from this list, is that the importance and influence of a book often

has no correlation to the number of copies that were sold.


0 -1 0 0
6412 elephant_7
Re: The outlaw safe cracker The outlaw safe cracker 3/25/2010 10:58:00 AM


From James R., rriley9945, james.scarpine, and

Ben Humphreys



- - - -



The "outlaw safe cracker" is one in a series of references: the "retired

business man," the "sighing minister," the "politicians and reformers," the

"outlaw safe cracker," and finally "the alcoholic." It seems most likely to me

that each of these references points not to a specific historical figure but to

an accepted "type" that would have been recognizable to the common reader of the

time.



Rather than looking for a specific outlaw safe cracker who might be the referent

of this quote, I'd be inclined to look to popular media representations of

criminals who feel that society has wronged them prior to 1939. There are

probably many newspaper stories, films, and radio programs that feature this

character type.



-James R.



- - - -



From: rriley9945@aol.com

(rriley9945 at aol.com)



There is a famous fictional safecracker, Jimmy Valentine, as the central

character in the famous O. Henry story "A Retrieved Reformation." This is a

fairly well known story and would have been also known back in 1938/1939.



- - - -



From the moderator G.C.



O. Henry (William Sydney Porter, born 1862, became an alcoholic, died 1910 of

cirrhosis of the liver, complications of diabetes and an enlarged heart).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._Henry



His short story "A Retrieved Reformation" <<... tells the tale of safecracker

Jimmy Valentine, recently freed from prison. He goes to a town bank to check it

over before he robs it. As he walks to the door, he catches the eye of the

banker's beautiful daughter. They immediately fall in love and Valentine decides

to give up his criminal career. He moves into the town, taking up the identity

of Ralph Spencer, a shoemaker. Just as he is about to leave to deliver his

specialized tools to an old associate, a lawman who recognizes him arrives at

the bank. Jimmy and his fiancée and her family are at the bank, inspecting a new

safe, when a child accidentally gets locked inside the airtight vault. Knowing

it will seal his fate, Valentine opens the safe to rescue the child. However,

the lawman lets him go.>>



http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1891/



- - - -



From: "planternva2000" <james.scarpine@verizon.net>

(james.scarpine at verizon.net)



WILLIE SUTTON:



http://www.banking.com/aba/profile_0397.htm



"Though he was to gain his fame as a bank robber, his first experience in

unauthorized withdrawals from banks and jewelry stores was learned at the knee

of a crook named 'Doc' Tate, an expert safecracker. In time, Sutton went on his

own with another partner, still cracking safes with all the traditional burglar

tools of his day plus a few of his own invention."



"Sutton's technique, with its variations, was used to take roughly 100 banks

over a career spanning from the late 1920s to Sutton's final arrest in

1952--with a number of prison terms in between."



See also:

http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/sutton/sutton.htm



It's probably safe to say he was well known in 1938.



If Sutton was Bill's 'outlaw safecracker' who were the 'retired business man,

the minister, the politicians and reformers' mentioned in the same paragraph?



- - - -



From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>

(blhump272 at sctv.coop)



I was born in 1937 and I knew of Willie Sutton well during my childhood. I

particularly remember his famous saying I rob banks because that is where the

money is. Ben H.



- - - -



Original question from Harriet D., who asked about a line on page 62 in the Big

book, in the chapter on How It Works.

>  

> This line refers to: "the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged

him."

>  

> Do any of our experts on early twentieth century U.S. history or literature or

the lives of famous outlaws recognize that as a reference to any specific person

or group of people who would have been well known to the average American in

1939?

>  

> Did Willie Sutton ever engage in safecracking, or did he just hold a Thompson

submachine gun or a pistol on the tellers and demand the money in their cash

drawers? And had he become well known enough by 1939, that the general public

would have recognized his name?


0 -1 0 0
6413 J. Lobdell
RE: Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism 3/25/2010 7:38:00 AM


From Jared Lobdell and Dick Chalue



- - - -



From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



BROWN UNIVERSITY:



Start with the Kirk (and John Hay Library) and Center for Alcohol and Addiction

Studies collections at Brown, parts of them online.



UNIVERSITY OF STIRLING (SCOTLAND):



The University of Stirling (Scotland) has a good practical library and data

base.



RUTGERS UNIVERSITY:



Rutgers has a good collection.



OTHER GOOD PLACES TO LOOK:



The Alcohol & Drug History Society and the Kettil Bruun Society (both with

listservs online) and Loran Archer's Alcohol Reports website might be able to

provide information.



- - - -



From: Dick Chalue <dickchalue@yahoo.com>

(dickchalue at yahoo.com)



THE G.S.O. ARCHIVES AT A.A. NEW YORK HEADQUARTERS

has certain kinds of items, such as copies of Bill

W's correspondence and official AA correspondence

with members and groups.



http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=21



- - - -



The original question from <nuevenueve@ymail.com>

(nuevenueve at ymail.com)



Do you know whether there are, anywhere in the world, some libraries with

specialized holdings on alcoholism, AA material, other recovery programs,

addictions and all related items?



Maybe some of the pharmaceutical companies, but libraries where the general

public can have access to the books.


0 -1 0 0
6414 Charlie C
re: Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism 3/26/2010 9:27:00 AM


One simple and freely available way to see what libraries have is to use

http://www.worldcat.org/. This is the free public version of a shared cataloging

database long used by public, academic and other libraries. You can do searches

and narrow down to libraries in your zip code region etc.



Most libraries are open to the public, but it is always a good idea to call

first re access and hours - the worldcat service above gives contact info. Some

college libraries allow borrowing of books by community users, generally by

purchasing some sort of courtesy user card, fees vary - we charge $25 a year

where I am.



You can also get books from other libraries through inter-library loan - use the

worldcat record info to make your request thru your local public library.

Depending on the library, they may charge a small fee for each request.





Charlie C.

IM = route20guy



"A flittin stane gaithers nae fog"


0 -1 0 0
6415 Fiona Dodd
Group Avoids Politics of Alcohol Group Avoids Politics of Alcohol 3/26/2010 1:52:00 AM


"Group Avoids Politics of Alcohol," by STEVEN CARROLL



AN ABILITY to avoid the politics surrounding alcohol consumption and a

leadership structure described as "benign anarchy" are two of the reasons

why Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) has thrived since it arrived here over 70

years ago, according to the author of a new book on the group.



Trinity College Dublin academic Shane Butler said the AA's "inverted

pyramid" style of governance has helped it to avoid many of the pitfalls

that political and religious institutions have encountered since it was

established here in 1946.



"They don't get distracted by institutions," he said. "What they have done

is kept their eye on the ball from a point of view of following its only

purpose - to help people who are absolutely flattened by alcohol

consumption.



"It survived through a policy of never getting involved in alcohol politics

. . . they don't contribute to debate or try to tell you whether or not the

pubs in Limerick should be open on Good Friday or anything like that."



While researching the book, Benign Anarchy - Alcoholics Anonymous in

Ireland, Mr Butler said he learned that the concept of alcoholism was little

known when returning Irish-American Conor Flynn moved here to help establish

a branch of the AA in 1946.



"He was told by the public that there were no alcoholics in the Free State

and that you might have found some if you'd gone up to the North."



Mr Butler said the AA, which has no direct leadership but simply follows a

spiritual 12-step programme, seemed destined to collapse. "It's a bit like

comparing it to the Fenians in 19th-century Ireland or modern-day organised

crime," he said.



"It looks like it couldn't survive as there's no leadership or top-level

telling local cumanns what to do, but it has worked and proved itself

extremely robust."



At the launch of the book last night, Diarmaid Ferriter, professor of modern

Irish history at UCD, said the AA intersected health and religion and was

one of few things to arrive here between the 1940s and 1960s that was not

challenged by then archbishop of Dublin, Dr John Charles McQuaid.


0 -1 0 0
6416 Glenn Chesnut
When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25 When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25 4/5/2010 9:53:00 PM


From: "Stepping Stones, the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson" 

<info@steppingstones.org> (info at steppingstones.org)

 

"When Love Is Not Enough: The Lois Wilson Story"

 

Irvington Town Hall Theater

85 Main Street

Irvington, New York 10533

 

Special showing with the author Bill Borchert as our guest. Question and answer

with the author, archival exhibit, refreshments.



The program begins at 8 p.m., Sunday, April 25, 2010; the video begins at 9 p.m.

 

Free admission, no reservation needed, but seating is limited, so get there

early.



Drive or take Metro-North Railroad to Irvington (on the east bank of the Hudson

River, north of the Bronx and Yonkers).



For more information, go to http://www.steppingstones.org or call (914)

232-4822.

______________________________________

 

OR WATCH IT AT HOME

 

Hallmark Hall of Fame

WHEN LOVE IS NOT ENOUGH

Winona ryder and Barry Pepper

CBS Television

Sunday, April 25, 2010

9:00 p.m. Eastern time

8:00 p.m. Central time

 

The video "is based on the true story of the tested but enduring bond between

Bill and Lois Wilson, respective co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon

Family Groups.

 

In 1914, Lois Burnham, a young woman from an affluent family, fell in love with

Bill Wilson, a young man of modest means.  They married in 1918, and after his

return from war, they set out to build a life together.



While Lois worked, Bill struggled to find his niche.  She believed he was

destined for greatness, and despite his increasing reliance on alcohol, she

showered him with love and support.  After brief periods of success, Bill's

addiction to alcohol spiraled out of control until his job, their lifestyle and

their dreams were gone.

 

In late 1934, after years of covering for Bill and trying to manage his illness

by herself, Lois witnessed Bill get and stay sober - not because of her but with

the support of fellow alcoholics.

 

As Bill attained lasting sobriety and co-founded AA, Lois was surprised to feel

neglected, isolated and resentful.  She was not alone in these feelings.  There

were many - wives, husbands, sisters, brothers - whose lives and relationships

had been devastated because of their loved ones' alcoholism.  With them she

began to apply the principles of AA to her own emotional recovery and co-founded

Al-Anon Family Groups in 1951.

 

Together Lois and Bill Wilson nurtured movements that have helped millions of

people around the world. And together they've given the world a noble and

inspiring love story."


0 -1 0 0
6417 ckbudnick
1970 copy of This Is AA pamphlet 1970 copy of This Is AA pamphlet 4/4/2010 8:12:00 PM


Has the pamphlet "This Is AA" changed between

it first being published in 1970 and now? Does

anyone know where a copy of the 1970 pamphlet

can be viewed?



Thanks,



Chris

Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
6418 Craig Keith
Dr. Bob on Anonymity Dr. Bob on Anonymity 4/3/2010 9:08:00 PM


Is this in fact anything that Dr. Bob actually

wrote or spoke, in these exact words? Or is this

somebody else trying to put their own words into

Dr. Bob's mouth?



I've searched the group message archives trying

to find some valid historical source where it

is attributed to Dr. Bob, but without success:

____________________________________



"Since our Tradition on anonymity designates the exact level where the line

should be held, it must be obvious to everyone who can read and understand the

English language that to maintain anonymity at any other level is definitely a

violation of the Tradition.



The AA who hides his identity from his fellow AA by using only a given name

violates the Tradition just as much as the AA who permits his name to appear in

the press in connection with matters pertaining to AA.



The former is maintaining his anonymity above the level of press, radio, and

films, and the latter is maintaining his anonymity below the level of press,

radio, and films-whereas the Tradition states that we should maintain our

anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films."

____________________________________



If Dr. Bob actually DID say this, in these exact

words, can someone give the historical source?



With gratitude,

Craig Keith

Wimberley, Texas


0 -1 0 0
6419 priscilla_semmens
Article by Bill W. or Dr. Bob on corrections? Article by Bill W. or Dr. Bob on corrections? 4/2/2010 9:18:00 AM


Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob ever write an article

about carrying the A.A. message to corrections

facilities? (Prisons, jails, penitentiaries,

detention facilities, etc.)



Thanks for your help


0 -1 0 0
6420 jim.alhandy
Modern A.A. success rate Modern A.A. success rate 4/1/2010 1:37:00 AM


Dear A.A. History Lovers, my name is Jim Alhandy

and I have been a sober member of A.A. since

1-2-90. I know I am supposed to stop fighting

anything or anyone, but this one has me ready

to go to the mountain. It is a question that

has the hair on the back of my neck standing on

edge.



Three times in two days, I heard at three different

meetings, that there is literature out of New York

that states only "2 or 3% of the people that come

to A.A. stay sober."



I read A.A. literature and do not believe this

is in print in any A.A. literature anywhere. The

Big Book says in the forward, on page xx, that

"of Alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried,

50% got sober at once," and as you know it says

on page 58, "Rarely have we seen a person fail

who has thoroughly followed our path...."



To me the key words are "and really tried" and

"thoroughly followed". I have definitions of my

own for those two terms.



I truly believe with all my heart, that it is my

job, as a sober member of A.A., to give the new

members of A.A. hope, PERIOD.



Please tell me that there is nothing in print

from A.A. that says only "2 or 3% stay sober".

I disagreed and contradicted by saying, "The

Big Book is correct. It is correct today as it

was correct when it was printed. If anything,

it was underestimated. It has been my experience

that 85 or 90% of people that "really tried"

stay sober.



I love A.A. Please help me. Please respond to

<jimalhandy@gmail.com> (jimalhandy at gmail.com).



Thank You,

Jim Alhandy

See you in Texas


0 -1 0 0
6421 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Modern A.A. success rate Modern A.A. success rate 4/5/2010 11:08:00 PM


Jim,



You are certainly correct. There is absolutely no literature coming from the New

York GSO stating that only "2 or 3% of the people that come to A.A. stay sober."



If you want further verification, phone New York and ask them for yourself:



A.A. General Services Board, 475 Riverside Dr Ste 832, New York, NY.

Phone 212-870-3400



And you might write their phone number down on a piece of paper, and hand it to

anybody you run into who is repeating that kind of nonsense. Because as you say,

it that false statement were true, it would cut the heart out of AA's promise of

freedom from slavery to alcohol.



- - - -



There are actually two questions here.



(1) What percentage of the people who go to two or three AA meetings end up

staying with the program, and gaining long term sobriety?



The official New York A.A. figures were assembled in a series of Triennial

Surveys, made every three years, and published by New York.



See Message 6410, which was posted up just a little over a week ago:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6410



You can read the article to which it refers as an Adobe Acrobat file:

http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf

or as an MS Word file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc



These A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of

those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will

still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. And of those who are

in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have completed

their initial ninety days, and have thereby demonstrated a certain willingness

to really try the program), 56% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end

of that year.



According to the really old timers in my part of the U.S. -- I have asked a

large number of them this question, and they universally agree -- THE PEOPLE WHO

GO BACK OUT AND DRINK are, 90% to 95% of the time, the people WHO QUIT ATTENDING

MEETINGS and quit trying to work the program.



If you have severe diabetes, then the combination of insulin injections and

watching your diet will do a lot of good, but if you quit the insulin shots and

start pigging out on chocolate cake again, you will get very ill -- not because

modern medicine "does not work," but because you stopped following the doctors'

recommendations.



It's time to quit blaming A.A. if people go to a few meetings, pay no attention

to what is said, put out no effort, and then disappear and go back to drinking

again.



If you take three or four violin lessons, refuse to practice the violin at home,

and then quit going to your lessons, then not even the greatest violin teacher

in the world can teach you how to play the violin successfully. Let's get

serious here!



- - - -



(2) What percentage of people who FAITHFULLY KEEP ON ATTENDING A.A. MEETINGS and

who GENUINELY WORK THE STEPS will end up gaining long term sobriety?



As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own experience --

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Even

people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending

meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long term

sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over the

years.



(Although I can remember two hard core cases from my home group, one who took

fifteen years and a term in the state penitentiary, and the other who took

twenty years, before they started taking the program seriously. But please,

anybody who is reading this, it is NOT necessary for YOU to do it the way they

did it!!!)



Just keep coming back, and it will work. As the good old timers put it, YOU

NEVER FAIL TILL YOU STOP TRYING.



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
6422 Henry Cox
Who is Mr. T in the Keys to the Kingdom? Who is Mr. T in the Keys to the Kingdom? 4/5/2010 10:19:00 PM


Who is Mr. T in this story at the back of the

Big Book, "The Keys to the Kingdom"?



- - - -



From GC the moderator:



"The Keys to the Kingdom," on pp. 268 ff. in the fourth edition of the Big Book,

is the story of Sylvia Kauffmann. She got sober on September 13, 1939.



For more about Sylvia K., see Nancy Olson's short biographies of the people who

wrote the stories at the end of the Big Book:



http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm



On page 273 Sylvia refers to "a visit from Mr. T., a recovered alcoholic."



This was Earl Treat (whose story is "He Sold Himself Short," on pp. 258

ff. in the 4th edit. of the Big Book). He was the one who founded A.A. in

Chicago.



For an interesting photograph of Earl Treat, see:

http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html

(Earl is standing between Dr. Bob and Barry Collins, who worked with Ed Webster

on printing and distributing the Little Red Book.)



There is another photograph of Earl by himself at:

http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound2.html



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
6423 john wikelius
P 48 AA Pamphlet P 48 AA Pamphlet 4/5/2010 11:29:00 PM


AA periodically surveys its members.  This pamphlet is titled:



A.A. Membership Survey



It has a lot of interesting data.  Can be purchased from GSO.



John Wikelius

Enterprise, Alabama


0 -1 0 0
6424 ginnymatthew
The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript 3/30/2010 5:11:00 PM


THE STORY OF THE WRITING OF THE BIG BOOK



I recently heard that one of the earliest drafts

of the Big Book was 400 or so pages long.



How many different versions of these (longer)

early drafts of the Big Book do we know about?



How many of these earlier versions still survive,

and where can copies of them be found?



Even if copies of some of these drafts no longer

exist, can we know anything about what they might

have contained?



Who cut them down and shortened them? Bill W.,

or someone else?



There is a big difference between 400 or more

pages, and the present 164 pages.



Ginny M.


0 -1 0 0
6425 Mike
An addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism An addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism 3/31/2010 7:42:00 PM


In the 12 & 12, in the chapter on the 3rd Tradition

(pp. 141-142) a potential new member confides to

the group that he was "the victim of another

addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism."



He's finally allowed to join. Does anyone know

what that stigma was??



Thanks, Mike



- - - -



From GC the moderator: This question gets asked periodically, so it's probably

not a bad idea to re-post the answer.



See AAHistoryLovers Message 1973, from Arthur Sheehan:



"WORSE STIGMATIZED":

In the year 1937: On the AA calendar of "year two" the spirit of Tradition 3

emerged. A member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the

"oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than

alcoholism." The "addiction" was "sex deviate."** Guidance came from Dr Bob (the

oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" The member was

admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. (DBGO 240-241 12&12 141-142) Note:

this story is often erroneously intermingled with an incident that occurred 8

years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. (PIO 318).



**Information on this revelation was provided by David S from an audiotape of

Bill W at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference. See also the

pamphlet The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. (Publication number P-53, pg

30).



THE BLONDE TRANSVESTITE (a totally different person):

In the year 1945: Bill W was called by Barry L (who would later author Living

Sober) from the 41st St clubhouse. Bill persuaded the group to take in a black

man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing and

makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do

about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered,

"yes" Bill replied, "well I think that's all we can ask." The man was reported

to have disappeared shortly after. (BW-FH 8, PIO 317-318) Anecdotal accounts

erroneously say that this individual went on to become one of the best 12th

Steppers in NY. This story is often erroneously intermingled with that of a 1937

incident ("year two" on the AA calendar) involving an Akron member that is

discussed in the Tradition Three essay in the 12&12 (pgs 141-142).


0 -1 0 0
6426 Robert Stonebraker
The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript 4/6/2010 1:02:00 AM


THE STORY OF THE WRITING OF THE BIG BOOK



Ginny and all,



An excerpt from the original "Bill's Story" can be downloaded at

http://www.4dgroups.org/ -- click "Downloads," then "Documents," and scroll down

to "Bill's Original Story." This is 36 pages:



http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=startdown\

&id=8




Interestingly, "Bill's Story" was titled Chapter 2 at that time, while "There Is

a Solution" was tagged as Chapter 1. From my information, these two chapters

were started in the Spring of 1938, and the next thing written -- "The Doctors

Opinion" -- was produced in July of that year.



However, I cannot remember exactly from what source I learned this

information.



I can send interested parties a PDF file of this writing.



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
6427 Karen Reynolds
Dr. Bob on Anonymity Dr. Bob on Anonymity 4/6/2010 1:12:00 AM


Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265. It

indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February 1969

Grapevine article.


0 -1 0 0
6428 M.J. Johnson
Re: Dr. Bob on Anonymity Dr. Bob on Anonymity 4/6/2010 7:06:00 AM


According to the Grapevine Digital Archive http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/ the

title of the article is "Dr. Bob on Tradition Eleven" (Vol. 25 No. 9).



It doesn't contain anything more of a quote other than what was included in the

original question here.



- - - -



On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:12 AM, Karen Reynolds <karenr110198@gmail.com>wrote:

>

> Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265. It

> indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February

> 1969 Grapevine article.

>

>


0 -1 0 0
6429 allan_gengler
Re: Modern A.A. success rate Modern A.A. success rate 4/6/2010 9:43:00 AM


From Allan Gengler, John Moore, and Baileygc23



- - - -



From: "allan_gengler" <agengler@wk.net> (agengler at wk.net)



AA does do a survey periodically and you can find the latest here:



http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?origpage=75&product=65



http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-48_07survey.pdf



- - - -



ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 2007 MEMBERSHIP SURVEY

(conference approved literature)



LENGTH OF SOBRIETY

33% sober more than 10 years

12% sober between 5-10 years

24% sober between 1-5 years

31% sober less than 1 year



MEETING ATTENDANCE

Members attend an average of 2.4 meetings per week



AGES OF MEMBERS

2.3% under age 21

11.3% age 21 through 30

16.5% age 31 through 40

28.5% age 41 through 50

23.8% age 51 through 60

12.3% age 31 through 70

5.3% over 70



HOW MEMBERS WERE FIRST INTRODUCED TO A.A.

(two reponses were permitted)

33% through an A.A. member

33% treatment facility

31% self-motivated

24% family

11% court order

8% counseling agency

7% health professional

4% employer or fellow worker

3% non-A.A. friend or neighbor

3% correctional facility

2% Al-Anon or Alateen member

2% A.A. literature

1% newspaper/magazine/radio/TV

1% member of clergy

1% internet

7% other



- - - -



From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com> (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)



First editions of BB (except the first printings) had a chapter near the indexes

entitled "Now We Are Thousands." This chapter was dropped, I believe, when the

second edition was introduced. It states:



"It had been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three

alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so, notwithstanding the

fact that their chance of recovery upon any other medical or spiritual basis had

been almost nil -- a small percentage at best."



View online at http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/391.html



GB

John M.

South Burlington VT 05403



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



I am seventy nine, and I have seen a lot of people disappear from AA. I have

gone to funerals for those who died by using again. I just keep going, and try

to stay sober somehow.


0 -1 0 0
6430 BILL MCINTIRE
Re: Modern AA success rate Modern AA success rate 4/6/2010 12:29:00 PM


From Bill McIntire, James Scarpine, and Glenn Chesnut



ON THE IMPORTANCE (OR UNIMPORTANCE) OF ATTENDING

A.A. MEETINGS IN EARLY ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS



- - - -



MEETINGS ALONE WON'T DO IT



From: Bill McIntire <maxbott@yahoo.com>

(maxbott at yahoo.com)



I agree!! I have seen NO info that supports those people's statement that "only

2 or 3% of the people that come to A.A. stay sober." Along with good info there

is a lot of bogus stuff as well. I am sure you are already aware of this.



I have met countless people who went to countless meetings and never gained much

continuous clean time and many of those who did manage to stay dry were just

that: dry.



5 yrs to 35 yrs.



However, I have met only a very small handful of people over the last 23 yrs who

had truthfully gone thru the steps, that went back out, and I have yet to meet

ANYBODY who is current with themselves and has a current experience with the

steps who has gone back out -- ever!!!



Which proves to me a couple of things: (1) meetings alone cannot keep me sober.

If that were so then "B" at the end of How it Works ("that probably no human

power could have relieved our alcoholism") would be a lie!



And (2) I am still here despite myself, NOT because of myself. Not because of

how many meetings I go to, how popular I am, not how many men I am sponsoring,

not how well I know or think I know the Book, and certainly not by how well I

can spew a lot of "AA" stuff!



While I do believe in the supportive power in meetings, there is NOTHING in my

experience that supports the message I have heard over the last 15 to 20 yrs,

that meetings keep you sober! And to my knowledge, nowhere in our literature

does it say that.



However, living by these principles, no matter how many meetings I may go to or

not make it to, is still a foolproof way to stay sober!

Enuf of my preaching!!! Bill



- - - -



THE ONLY MENTION OF MEETINGS is on pages 159-160 in the Big Book, which says

ONLY ONE MEETING A WEEK IS NECESSARY



From: "planternva2000" <james.scarpine@verizon.net>

(james.scarpine at verizon.net)



Please tell me I misunderstood your post:



As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own experience --

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Even

people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending

meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long term

sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over the

years.



While my own exposure to the first edition Big Book has bee entirely on line,

and I no longer have my copies of the second edition, I still have my third and

fourth. For the life of me I can find no sentence stating "Here are the steps we

took and the meetings we attended, which are suggested as a program of

recovery."



The only mention of meetings I can find is on page 159: "In addition to these

casual get-togethers (note the word 'casual'), it became customary to set apart

one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested

in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime

object was to provide a time and place where new people (note 'new people')

might bring their problems.



Today there several hundred AA members, Loners, Homers and Internationalists,

registered with GSO who do not have access to meetings. At different times in my

own early sobriety I was a Loner and later an Internationalist, with meetings

few and far between.



The gentleman whose story is on page 310 of "Experience, Strength & Hope" was

sober three years and three months without ever having attended a single

meeting.



Jim S.



- - - -



WHAT THE BIG BOOK ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT MEETINGS

on pp. 159-160



From Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



"A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing

much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter

a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly

thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In addition

to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a week

for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way

of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide

a time and place where new people might bring their problems."



"Outsiders became interested. One man and his wife placed their large home at

the disposal of this strangely assorted crowd. This couple has since become so

fascinated that they have dedicated their home to the word. Many a distracted

wife has visited this house to find loving and understanding companionship among

women who knew her problem, to hear from the lips of their husbands what had

happened to them, to be advised how her own wayward mate might be hospitalized

and approached when next he stumbled."



It's talking about early Akron AA. Read Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers to see

more details about what this paragraph was actually describing. Also read the

whole first paragraph, including "scarce an evening passed that someone's home

did not shelter a little gathering of men and women."



Most of the early Akron people showed up at Dr. Bob and Anne's house EVERY DAY

-- either in the morning, when they sat around while Anne read from the Upper

Room (or sometimes a relevant Bible verse) and then discussed the topic raised

in that meditational reading -- or in the evening, when they likewise sat around

and discussed how the program was working in their lives, and the spiritual

problems that they were having to deal with in their life in the world.



One way or another, they stayed in constant daily contact with other A.A.

people.



The "one meeting a week" was the Oxford Group style meeting at the home of T.

Henry and Clarace Williams. This couple were not alcoholics themselves, and

spouses also came to this meeting.



So what the Big Book was describing on pp. 159-160 -- early Akron A.A. --

actually consisted of SEVEN MEETINGS A WEEK:



(1) ONE BIG MEETING A WEEK, which was what we would today call an "open

meeting," with non-alcoholics also present, at T. Henry and Clarace Williams'

house.



(2) A SMALLER MEETING on each of the other six days of the week, held either in

the morning before work, or in the evening, at Dr. Bob and Anne's house. This

kind of meeting was what we would today call a "discussion meeting" or a "topic

meeting."


0 -1 0 0
6431 handlebarick
Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner! Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner! 4/6/2010 8:59:00 AM


Mel B. (Toledo, Ohio) and Tom D. (Lima, Ohio)

will be present to answer questions on



Sunday, May 2, 2010 at the

"Gratitude for our Sobriety" dinner

in Wapakoneta, Ohio



Both men obtained the gift of sobriety in

April 1950, and have 60 years of sobriety each.



This event will be held at the First English Lutheran Church, on 107 W. Mechanic

St. in Wapakoneta, Ohio.



Wapakoneta is located in western Ohio, about 25 miles from the Indiana border,

just off Interstate 75 halfway between Toledo and Dayton, where the interstate

crosses U.S. Highway 33.



Fellowship begins at 2:00 pm

Covered dish dinner at 3:00 pm

Ask-It-Basket session with Mel B. and Tom D. at 4:00 pm



Rick Swaney 4-01-1987

Wapakoneta, Ohio

______________________________



MEL B. WAS THE PRINCIPAL AUTHOR OF PASS IT ON,

THE CONFERENCE-PUBLISHED BIOGRAPHY OF BILL W.



http://www.walkindryplaces.com/



He is also the author of:



**New Wine: The Spiritual roots of the Twelve Step Miracle (1991)

**Ebby: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W. (1998)

**My Search for Bill W. (2000)

**Walk in Dry Places (1996)



And the author (along with Bill P.) of:



**The 7 Key Principles of Successful Recovery (1999)


0 -1 0 0
6432 Charlie C
Upper Room Upper Room 4/7/2010 7:23:00 PM


Although I don't use it so much these days, I still enjoy the Upper Room

devotional, and looking at one recently in a Methodist church where I attend a

meeting I noticed that this is their 75th year, the same as AA!



It can help to understand the popularity of the Upper Room in early AA to know

that such daily devotionals are not that many in number, and this is one of the

earliest and longest running. The Daily GuidePost, a similar title, was not

started until 1977 for example. The Methodist church too was then, as it is now,

quite large, and very widespread geographically, so undoubtedly many meetings

were housed in Methodist churches, thus perhaps giving some exposure to the

Upper Room, copies of which are often set out for the taking.



Following is a history of the Upper Room from their website.



"The Upper Room began as a daily devotional guide, which remains at the heart of

its ministry. During the 1930s, a group of women in San Antonio, Texas discerned

through prayer that families needed a time of worship and Bible study to sustain

them through the stress of the economic depression. They asked their church for

a devotional guide -- a request that inspired the Board of Missions of the

Methodist Episcopal Church, South, to "publish a quarterly devotional booklet to

be sold in the local church."



Dr. Grover Carlton Emmons, the first editor of the guide, determined the

one-page meditation format and decided that the devotions would be written by

various Christians, both lay and clergy, from around the world. The final

decision, the name of the guide, came to him as he heard a speaker describe the

outpouring of spiritual power among Jesus' disciples gathered in an upper room

on the day of Pentecost. He quickly telegraphed those who were typesetting the

first issue, and in April 1935, the first issue of The Upper Room daily

devotional guide rolled off the presses.



In the decades since the guide was "prayed into existence," The Upper Room has

grown into a global ministry and touched millions of lives. The Upper Room

continues to expand in response to the spiritual needs of persons and

communities of faith."



Charlie C.

IM = route20guy


0 -1 0 0
6433 Kimball ROWE
Re: Modern AA success rate Modern AA success rate 4/8/2010 4:29:00 PM


THE 75% / 25% RULE-OF-THUMB STILL WORKS TODAY,

FOR ALL WHO CAME TO A.A. AND "REALLY TRIED"



Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and

remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder,

those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. (Foreword to the Second

Edition, pg xx)



We posed the same question to our home group with the stipulation that they had

to "Really Try." How many got sober at once, how many sobered up after some

relapses, and what happened to the remainder. Our criteria for "Really Tried"

is as follows:



1. Did you thoroughly follow the path?

2. Did you completely give yourself to this simple program?

3. Did you grasp and develop a manner of living that demands rigorous honesty?

4. Did you have the capacity to be honest?

5. Did you have the willingness to go to any length?

6. Did you take certain steps?

7. Were you fearless and thorough from the very start?

8. Did you let go of your old ideas absolutely?

9. Did you find a Power greater than yourself?

10. Did you ask this Higher Power for help?

11. Did you take the steps?

12. Were you willing to grow along spiritual lines?



For each person that really tried (a yes response to the above questions) in our

home group, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after

some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed

improvement. For my home group, the numbers haven't changed since 1939.



That said, the Foreword to the Second Edition continues, "Other thousands came

to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But

great numbers of these about two out of three began to return as time passed."



I can only presume that these "thousands" are the people who didn't try. They

were not counted with those that tried. They are sometimes referred to as the

"passing parade" or "visitors" but rarely take the time to become members.



Kim


0 -1 0 0
6434 M.J. Johnson
Re: Upper Room Upper Room 4/9/2010 5:03:00 PM


I'm very interested in finding archived issues of The Upper Room from the 30's

and 40's - ideally electronically... does anyone know where I might find them?



Many thanks in advance.


0 -1 0 0
6435 planternva2000
Re: Modern AA Success Rate Modern AA Success Rate 4/8/2010 9:46:00 AM


From James Scarpine, Tim T., and Glenn C.



- - - -



From: "planternva2000" <james.scarpine@verizon.net>

(james.scarpine at verizon.net)



You say that this passage in the Big Book on pages 159-160 is



"talking about early Akron AA. Read Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers to see more

details about what this paragraph was actually describing. Also read the whole

first paragraph, including 'scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not

shelter a little gathering of men and women.'"



Is it truly talking about early AA? Or is it talking about the Akron Oxford

Group? "A year and six months later....." has to mean during the time when the

alcoholics were O.G. members, since the split didn't take place till later. It's

reasonable to assume that those early members needed frequent contact with one

another because there was no "AA program of recovery" available. Yes, they had

the O. G. `six step' program, but as we see from different examples in our

literature, there were several different versions of those. If meetings were so

vital in those early days I'm sure Bill would have made the point in the Big

Book. Instead he stressed the importance of the 12 Steps. His comments about the

frequent gatherings in members' homes is mentioned in passing, an example of the

alcoholic's different social activities.



- - - -



From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com)



The claim was made that "THE ONLY MENTION OF MEETINGS is on pages 159-160 in the

Big Book, which says ONLY ONE MEETING A WEEK IS NECESSARY."



If you go to pagers 159-160, you'll find that the above quote is not what it

says at all. The word "necessary" is never mentioned. In fact, the context of

this section suggests that lots of homes had meetings lots of nights and that

these folks saw a lot of one another.



It's very distressing when people take quotes out of context and "spin" them to

mean something else, for whatever reason, or to support whatever agenda. Over

the last several years there have been individuals who belong to groups that

hold themselves out to be better than the rest of us. These individuals

frequently use this "straw man" argument, whereby they set up this false choice:

"Meetings alone" vs. doing it their way.



Obviously, in the experience of most sober, long-term AA members, a home group,

a sponsor, working the steps, surrendering to some kind of spiritual

open-mindedness, reading the literature, trying to carry the message to other

suffering alkies - ALL these things together produce the highest quality of life

for the recovered alcholic. Having "sects" of AA that claim they are better

than the rest of us; the "sects" using their own literature; the "sects"

interpreting the Big Book in idiosyncratic ways; it strikes me that this only

divides our fellowship and unnecessarily complicates what is a fairly

straightforward process.



Tim T.



- - - -



From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



THIS IS THE KIND OF EARLY AKRON A.A.

which was being referred to on pp. 159-160 of the Big Book.



J. D. Holmes (A.A. No. 10) describes the Wednesday night Open Meeting (as we

would call it today) at the home of T. Henry and Clarace Williams, where

non-alcoholics also took part in the discussions.



He ALSO describes the daily visits either to Dr. Bob's office or to Dr. Bob's

home, where the door was never locked, and groups of recovering alcoholics could

be found there literally every hour of the day or night.



It was not a get-together-once-a-week program, but a program in which people got

together seven days a week.



http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html

J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in Indiana

Evansville, April 23, 1940

______________________________



Based on a talk given by Glenn C. (South Bend) at the archives workshop held at

the Courthouse Annex in Peru, Indiana on March 25, 2000, assembled from his

notes and Frank Nyikos’ transcription of the tape recordings which Frank made of

the speakers.



James D. "J. D." Holmes got sober in Akron, Ohio in September 1936, where he was

A.A. No. 10. After the newspaper J. D. worked for in Akron was sold, he moved to

Evansville, Indiana, on May 30, 1938, and got a job selling advertising for a

newspaper there. He started the first A.A. meeting in Indiana in Evansville on

April 23, 1940.Around 1951, J. D. returned to Akron, where he was a writer for

the Akron Beacon-Journal. He died at his home in Akron at the age of 66 on

Saturday, May 27, 1961, with 24 years of sobriety.

______________________________



There's a lot of stuff about J. D. in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, the

official A.A. history of those early Akron years when A.A. was first beginning

.... J. D. was one of the few early A.A. members who were not hospitalized first

.... But in J.D.'s case, they decided he didn't need that kind of

hospitalization, so they just invited him to attend the regular Wednesday

evening meeting of the "alcoholic squad" (as it was later jokingly referred to)

at the home of Oxford Groupers T. Henry and Clarace Williams.



"I met seven other men there who had a drinking problem," J. D. said, "together

with Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson. They all told me their stories, and I decided

there might be hope for me." They conducted it a little bit like they used to do

when they gave you the third degree at a police station -- you know, the bright

light shining in your eyes, everything except beating you with a rubber hose --

the old timers weren't kidding around when they did a twelfth step on you!



During this period, J. D. recalled, he saw Dr. Bob every day of the week, either

at his office or in his home.



"I was over there four or five times a week in the daytime, and then I'd wind up

there at night. I've gone to their home on a morning, opened it up, and gone

in," J. D. said. "No one up. I'd just go ahead and start the pot of coffee

going. Somebody would holler out, 'Who's down there?' -- thinking maybe it would

be a drunk who had stayed overnight. Anne never knew who would be on her

davenport when she got up in the morning."



The early A.A.'s in Akron [stuck together constantly]. This was somewhere around

early 1938 by now.



J. D. told how "Ernie's mother used to throw a party every two weeks during this

period. She'd make the doughnuts, and though everybody was broke, we all brought

something. It was nothing unusual to see 25 or 30 people over there drinking

coffee and eating doughnuts."



"I've been at those parties when there were calls from Cleveland from people who

wanted to come down," he said. "Two men would hop in a car, go to Cleveland, and

bring the man down to Akron."


0 -1 0 0
6436 James Bliss
Re: Modern AA success rate Modern AA success rate 4/7/2010 7:38:00 PM


From Jim Bliss, Steven Calderbank, Dave G., and Bill McIntire



- - - -



From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>

(james.bliss at comcast.net)



First Sentence, Chapter 7, "Working with Others," Big Book page 89:



/Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from

drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities

fail./



These statements directly show that we do not get sober and stay that way

without continued work. Work with another alcoholic, at least my reading from

the Big Book, is working the steps with them. Note the term 'with'. This does

not mean that they alone are working the steps but that I also am working the

steps over and over when I work with

other alcoholics.



I agree, going to meetings does not keep me sober, although it may keep me dry

(which my wife and family do not want to see). For me to stay sober I must

continue to work the program, and this is best done by working with another

alcoholic, through the steps.



I have seen people who claim to have worked the steps go back out, and perhaps

they have worked the steps. But they have not 'practiced these principles in all

of our affairs' which, in my reading, is continuing to work the steps. They also

have not continued to (or at all) work with other alcoholics.



As Bill says in the 12 and 12 in his discussion of step six, '/Only Step One,

where we made the 100 percent admission we were powerless over alcohol, can be

practiced with absolute perfection./' The plain reading of this is that I am

supposed to continue to 'practice' the steps. In my opinion, I need to continue

to work them, striving for perfection, although I know that I will not be able

to achieve perfection in any of them but the first.



Jim



- - - -



From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net

(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)



No offense Bill, but when you said: "However, I have met only a very small

handful of people over the last 23 yrs who had truthfully gone thru the steps,

that went back out, and I have yet to meet ANYBODY who is current with

themselves and has a current experience with the steps who has gone back out --

ever!!!"



How do you quantify such a statement? It was said with such authority, but I

fail to see where such a statement makes much sense. I know that the program of

AA works for me 100% of the time that I use it. I have a 100% success rate. That

is the only one I can honestly quantify.



And even if the only mention of meetings in the Big Book is the one on pages

159-160, it is also true that the Big Book doesn't use the word sponsor in the

first 164 pages. But I am sure most folks would not suggest doing without one.



- - - -



From: David G. <doci333@hotmail.com>

(doci333 at hotmail.com)



Hi Jim and Everyone,



I wrestled with that 2%-3% in my head to.



Years back (~15yrs), I asked an oldtimer about those percentages, and he passed

on to me that he had read that; 3-5% of all Americans were possibly alcoholic.

He added that with our alcoholic minds we probably just skewed those percentages

over to the Program Of AA because we like the pain and love to live in the

disaster mode.



It was enough to quiet the beast in my head.



My side of the street shows that I have a 100% success rate.



The "Oldtimer" is the only documentation that I have. Thanks to all for paving

the way.



AA Love and Hugs,



Dave G.

Illinois



- - - -

From: BILL MCINTIRE <maxbott@yahoo.com>

(maxbott at yahoo.com)



This is really great information!!! Brings up some points I havn't considered

and still follows closely to what I always felt. Meetings are very important!

They provide a vital aid to recovery. I think most people's chances improve with

close and constant support and helps us to (hopefully) grow in our sobriety but

is not what keeps us sober. While early Akron was still in the forming stages of

a fellowship there was scarce anybody (support) available. I do not take

anything away from the importance of meetings with exception to some peoples

belief that that is how one stays sober. A message stressing more importance in

meetings as a way to stay sober and much less stressing of the message and the

steps and the necessity of a continuously growing spiritual experience to stay

sober is, I believe dangerous to our fellowship.



The list of facts this group has sent me I believe supports that fear I think

perhaps I am getting a little off base from the topic of history though. For

that I apologize. Occasionally I can fall off on personal experience and my

history rather than learning more of "our" history of AA



Godspeed, Bill


0 -1 0 0
6437 Edward
Re: Modern A.A. success rate Modern A.A. success rate 4/8/2010 9:01:00 PM


From Ted G. and Jim M.



- - - -



From: Ted G. <elg3_79@yahoo.com>

(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)



Dear ones,



Recently I have been delving into the literature which might be charitably

called the counterpoint to ours .. Jack Trimpey's "The Small Book", Stanton

Peele's "The Diseasing of America", Marianne Gilliam's "How Alcoholics Anonymous

Failed Me", "The Alcoholism and Addiction Cure" by Chris Prentiss and a couple

of others.



All contain some variant of the claim that only 3-6% of people who come to A.A.

get sober, which they further claim is identical to the rate of people who

simply stop drinking with no outside help when they've had enough. I believe

this commonly repeated "statistic" (amongst people who have a vested interest in

discrediting A.A.) to be the source of the rumors heard in meeting rooms.



I highly recommend to all A.A. members with brains like mine (the kind that

won't shut off) to read at least the first three books I listed, as their

insight into what to avoid saying or doing as a responsible A.A. member is

invaluable.



The authors' objections to A.A. are generally not against what is actually in

the literature, but against what one hears in rooms nowadays, and when one

examines the "alternative" programs of action they present, there are striking

similarities to the early A.A. way of doing things .... Which I am sure would

cause them great resentment if it were pointed out to them.



Y'all's in service,



Ted G.



- - - -



From: Jim M <silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com>

(silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com)



Numbers don't lie. You can see them for yourself, that which Allen G. presented

to you below - then compare them



to the early years of AA statistics when long term sobriety success rates were

much, much higher.



When I lived in Columbia, SC, I had a sponsor who would sit down with me and the

Big Book and we would study



every word, sentence, paragraph and chapter and discuss its historical

significance and value. He was and lived like



the AA'ers of the early days when the success rates were much higher. He was

well loved and is missed by many



AA'ers. He was known from Columbia, SC all the way up to the top - AAWS, Inc.

His primary purpose was truly



to stay sober and help other alcoholics to acheive sobriety and is exactly how

he lived his life.



I believe in one alcoholic helping another,

I believe in AA,

I believe in the 12 Steps,

I believe in the 12 Traditions,

I have Hope and Faith,

I know there is a Power greater than myself,

His name is God and His Son died for my sins.



Yours in service,

Jim M,

http://www.silkworth.net/


0 -1 0 0
6438 allan_gengler
Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 4/8/2010 1:04:00 PM


The Forward to the Second Editions says there were THREE groups.



From the FORWARD: "A second small group promptly took shape at New York, to be

followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland. Besides these, there

were scattered alcoholics who had picked up the basic ideas in Akron or New York

who were trying to form groups in other cities. By late 1937, the number of

members having substantial sobriety time behind them was sufficient to convince

the membership that a new light had entered the dark world of the alcoholic."


0 -1 0 0
6439 Glenn Chesnut
1 % A.A. success rate statistically impossible 1 % A.A. success rate statistically impossible 4/9/2010 7:41:00 PM


It is statistically impossible for AA to have only a 1% success rate.

 

There are about 1 million A.A. members in the U.S., according to the official

A.A. statistics.*



Now if 100 raving alcoholics had to come to A.A. in order for just one of them

to get sober (while the other 99 went back to smashing cars, being unable to

hold jobs, and getting into fist fights in bars),



that would mean that 99 million raving alcoholics would have had to have come to

A.A. meetings and failed, to balance out that paltry 1 million who got sober.



The U.S. population is about 300 million.



That would mean that one third of the people in the U.S., men, women, and

children -- AT A BARE MINIMUM -- must be raving alcoholics, running into one

another drunkenly on the highways and bumping into one another as they stagger

down the pavement.

 

But according to the National Institutes of Health News for Mar. 17, 1995, only

4.38 % of persons aged eighteen and older in the U.S. suffer from alcohol

dependence (that is, the kind of chronic hardcore alcoholism which A.A. was

developed to treat). That is only around ten million alcoholics in the U.S. --

not a hundred million!



(An additional 3.03 % drink too much for their own good, but would be able to

quit using their own will power if given a sufficient reason to do so.)



See http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/NewsEvents/NewsReleases/nlaes.htm

 

Do you see the problem? There are only about 10 million chronic hardcore

alcoholics in the United States. If A.A. were only capable of getting 1% of

alcoholics sober, there could be at most only 100,000 A.A. members in the whole

United States.**



If A.A. were capable of getting only 2% of alcoholics sober, that would still

necessitate that there only be 200,000 A.A. members in the whole United States,

and that one sixth of the people in the United States were raving alcoholics,

ALL of whom had tried getting sober in A.A., even though only 98% of them

succeeded.

 

How about the 5% figure? If all 10 million of the people in the U.S. who suffer

from alcoholism had gone to at least a few A.A. meetings, then it is true, that

if 5% of these got sober in A.A., that we could account for a total A.A.

membership of 500,000. But that would only be half of the real count, and it

would require that ALL of the alcoholics in the U.S. had gone to at least a few

A.A. meetings -- which we know is not true.

 

(And anyway, the 5% figure was a blatant error from the beginning. It came

originally from a man named Richard K., who belonged to the AAHistoryLovers back

then, and who did not know how to read the statistical tables in the A.A.

Triennial Surveys. I remember well how a number of us tried to show him how he

was misreading the tables -- that the 5% figure at one place was NOT the

one-year success rate, merely the percentage of the people at these A.A.

meetings who were in their twelfth month of attending A.A.*** -- but he

continued to insist that his misreading was correct. And then, God help us, this

blatant misreading began being repeated by certain other people on the internet,

without these people remotely bothering to check where that figure had come from

or who had dreamed it up.)

 

Now let's look at a serious figure instead.



The A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of those

people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still

be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. That means that we would

have to run 4 million people roughly through a few A.A. meetings in order to

come out with 1 million people who stay in A.A. and get a bit of sobriety. With

10 million people in the U.S. classified as alcohol dependent, that means that

we would have to conclude that nowadays about 40% of the alcoholics in the U.S.

end up with a little bit of contact with A.A. at one time or another during

their lives. And in fact, as a ball park estimate, this 40% figure matches up at

least reasonably well with some very well done National Institute of Health

studies.

 

SO A 26 % ONE-YEAR RETENTION RATE MATCHES UP FAIRLY WELL with the other

statistics which we possess -- and with common sense observations we can make --

about A.A. in the modern United States.

 

And of those who "really try" -- as for example, by continuing to go to A.A.

meetings for more than 90 days -- according to the modern A.A. Triennial

Membership Surveys, 56% of those people will still be attending A.A. meetings at

the end of that year.

 

Hmmm -- 56% of those who "really try" seem to be able to get sober in modern

A.A. -- sounds suspiciously like the old time claims from back in the 1930's and

40's, when they said that 50% of the people who came to A.A. and "really tried"

were able to get sober.

 

Glenn C.

South Bend, Indiana

______________________________

 

*The official A.A. figures, which show an A.A, membership in the U.S. of around

one million, are very conservative -- the National Institute of Health surveys

show that there are quite a few more Americans than that who are sober because

of having attended A.A.

 

**By way of comparison, there were 50,000 in attendance at the Minneapolis

convention in 2000, and 50,000 at the Toronto convention in 2005.



***Let's say we have a four-year university program, like the undergraduate

programs at Indiana University, only at this university, nobody ever drops out,

and nobody is ever flunked out. We enroll 1,000 new students every year:



1st year students: 1,000 = 25% of the 4,000 total

2nd year students: 1,000 = 25% of the 4,000 total

3rd year students: 1,000 = 25% of the 4,000 total

4th year students: 1,000 = 25% of the 4,000 total



Does this mean that 75% of the students are flunked out, and that only 25%

successfully gain their degrees? Of course not! The ratio of 4th year students

to 1st year students is 1,000/1,000 (or 25/25, which ever way you choose to

phrase it) which means a one hundred percent success rate.



During the 33 years I taught at Indiana University, we in fact performed these

calculations every year -- although we in fact did have a certain percentage of

students who dropped out or were flunked out every year -- in order to keep an

eye on any places where we might have an abnormally high ratio of students

failing to make it, so that we could attempt remedial measures of some sort.



In the A.A. Triennial Surveys, 19% of the people in their first year of

attending A.A. meetings were in their first month of attending A.A., while 5% of

the first year people were in their twelfth month of attending A.A. If we take

that 5/19 ratio -- 5 divided by 19 -- this comes out to 26%.


0 -1 0 0
6440 RacewayJay
Longest living sober member of AA? Longest living sober member of AA? 4/9/2010 11:48:00 PM


Does anyone know who is the longest living sober member of AA at this time? I

think this was asked a while back but I cannot locate it.


0 -1 0 0
6441 mdingle76
Main editor of 2nd edition AA Big Book: Tom P. Main editor of 2nd edition AA Big Book: Tom P. 4/9/2010 8:18:00 PM


Dear AAHL,

I have given an interview between Tom P. and Catherine N. (one of the editors

for "Pass It On") in which Tom stated being the main editor for the 2nd edition

of the AA Big Book. And I know this kind of information can be refuted by

others. However, I think we should take it from the horse's mouth (taking the

horse to be Bill W.). On June 16, 1954 Bill W. said at the 19th annual Founder's

Day (introducing the main speaker, Tom Powers):



"I hope you're going to like this new book. And if you do like it you can credit

Tom with 50% of your liking because he is the guy who most painstakingly edited

it and the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions before that."



Sorry I didn't bring this source in sooner — I always assumed Bill was referring

to "AA Comes of Age" — a book that Tom Powers edited, structured, and wrote a

lot of. I never paid much attention to the date on the tape until recently.



Matt D.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:

>

> Message #5003 from <jlobdell54@...>

> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) noted that

>

> "the chief editor for the second edition was

> Edward Hale B."

>

> It went on to say that other editors included

> "Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of

> the Grapevine - I don't know)."

> ______________________________

>

> In a further message (18 May 2008) to

> mdingle76@... (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)

>

> Jared Lobdell added the following remark:

>

> "Thanks very much. My guess had been it was

> Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure.

>

> I'd be interested to know which was the story

> Tom included that some AAs didn't like (or

> whose author they didn't like)."

>


0 -1 0 0
6442 J. Lobdell
RE: Longest living sober member of AA? Longest living sober member of AA? 4/10/2010 6:16:00 AM


From Jared Lobdell, Glenn Chesnut, Steven

Calderbank, and Beverly Foulke



- - - -



From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



**64 YEARS**



The longest living in the area where I live is Clyde B., June 20, 1946. In a

couple of months or so, he will have 64 years of sobriety.



- - - -



From: Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



**60 YEARS**



See Message 6431, which was posted four days ago:

"Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner!"

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6431



Mel B. from Toledo (who is a member of our own

AAHistoryLovers group) and Tom D. from Lima, Ohio,

will both be celebrating 60 years of sobriety at

a dinner in Wapakoneta in May. They both came into

the program in April 1950.



- - - -



From: bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com)



**58 YEARS**



This is Beverly Foulke in Tucson, Arizona. I know

of a gentlemen here who has 58 yrs. in sobriety.

Dr. Silkworth helped him get sober. His name is

Matt L. If you need more info on the subject let

me know.



- - - -



From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net

(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)



**53 YEARS**



I am sure there are others with more but Bill L.

(who will be speaking in San Antonio) has a sobriety

date of 10/1/56. 53 years.


0 -1 0 0
6443 Lynn Sawyer
Re: Upper Room Upper Room 4/10/2010 1:53:00 AM


Dear M.J.:



Have you tried writing to the Upper Room itself???

They will probably have some archival info. you

could get a hold of .....Just a suggestion ....



Lynn S.

grateful to be sober TODAY

Sacramento, CA



- - - -



From the moderator:



Yes, the Upper Room headquarters in Nashville,

Tennessee has copies of all of the issues, from

the beginning, in their archives.



I was in correpondence with the present editor

several years ago, to see if they would be willing

to publish a volume with a whole year's worth of

copies from somewhere in the 1935 to 1939 period.

But this was not something that they wanted to

get involved in.



You can still find copies of the Upper Room from

the 1935 to 1939 period on e-bay. I have a few

copies myself.



For some of the daily readings from the Upper Rooms

from the 1930's, see:



http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

_____________________________________



P.S. The church in San Antonio where the women first came up with the idea for

the Upper Room was the one which I attended when I was a child.



Also see http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html



<<The Upper Room and Early A.A. From 1935 to 1948, most A.A. members read The

Upper Room every morning for their morning meditation. Although the Oxford Group

had the greatest influence on the development of early A.A., this little

paperback booklet may well have been the second greatest influence on early A.A.

spirituality. This article gives selections from the readings in some of the

issues of The Upper Room published in 1938 and 1939, along with commentary

explaining some of the ideas which A.A. drew from this source: the understanding

of character and character defects, happiness as an inside job, the Divine Light

within, warnings against being too imprisoned by doctrines, dogmas and church

creeds, the dangers of resentment, instructions about how to pray, entering the

Divine Silence, learning to listen to God, opening the shutters of my mind to

let in the Sunlight of the Spirit, taking life One Day at a Time, and above all,

remembering that God is present with me at all times: "Nearer is he than

breathing, closer than hands or feet.">>


0 -1 0 0
6444 Glenn Chesnut
Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. 4/11/2010 4:08:00 PM


From: Walt N. <wniez@co______> who writes:

 

Over the years I have enjoyed the Sobriety Anniversaries website which lists

sobriety anniversaries worldwide.

 

http://www.aahistory.com/newbirth.html

 

A year ago, I was wondering about the "oldest" sober person in this list and

went through it and compiled the following list which starts wth Cynthia C,

whose code number translates [40 = 1940 and 0313 March 13] (DOS March 13, 1940).

 

I stopped at Al M (DOS September 27, 1961).

 

I was communicating with Eddie W (DOS June 16, 1961) whose sobriety date is the

same day of the year as mine (only mine was in 1994).    Although I'm not

certain as to the authenticity of this information, I am always thrilled when I

receive congratulations on my sobriety date from Belgium, Canada, New Zeland and

many US States.

 

I thought this list was rather interesting and would like to share it with you.

 

Thanks for the great work in maintaining the History Lovers Website, and thank

you for my sobriety.

 

Walt N

 

400313 Cynthia C

400511 Terry M

400815 Duke P

410414 Barry C

410417 Al M

410417 Tex A

411111 Clancy U

421010 Ed W

440610 Mary R

450111 Jack T

450613 Rosa B

450800 Cliff W

450929 Lib S

460106 Stan W

461111 Jack T

470630 Clinton F

470806 Larry S

471104 Steve H

480104 Frank B

480127 Wendy (from Iowa)

480401 Ann C

480614 David P

491231 Vernon L

500228 Leroy B

501117 Joe L

520318 John B

520909 Louise A

520918 William S

521115 Bev S

521225 Bob T

530101 Joseph J

530713 Howard A

530815 Jeff M

531105 Silva C

540419 Jack

540606 Cheeky Charley H

540828 Bill B

550427 Lee E

550715 Neill P5

551022 Jack B

560601 Bill C

560802 Millie W

560817 Richard S

560913 Isabelle Mac T

561229 Pinky H

570214 CJB

570219 Walt T

570330 John O

570404 John G

570424 Jack B

570502 Grace H

571117 Raymond M

571213 Leo R

570821 Jack C

580226 Henry R

580306 Jack H

580824 Frank H

580930 Dave H

581031 Diana H

590111 George S

590207 Ruth H

590407 Len L

590423 Lee L

590704 Rusty W

590919 George L

591217 Donald H

591224 Mike A

600104 Peter N

600205 Paul P

600214 Laurie P

600406 Jeff J

600504 Peter D

600508 Marti P

600717 John B

600725 Tom A

600923 Peter E

601002 Billie S

601027 Al C

601111 Hal K

601125 Keith M

601231 Reuben W

610104 Al W

610214 Tommie D

610306 Rosie (Al-anon) R

610401 Cactus Pete P

610515 Dorothy E

610616 Eddie W

610927 Al M


0 -1 0 0
6445 Jim Hoffman
1970 copy of This Is AA pamphlet 1970 copy of This Is AA pamphlet 4/6/2010 6:25:00 PM


I have a copy of the 1970 pamphlet in an adobe file, if anyone would like.



Please send me an email at:



<jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>

(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)



We have a 1966 copy in our archives and a 1980 copy that says Revised.



I have not yet compared them, but there seems to have been revisions.

Archives in GSO was kind enough to send me this 1970 adobe copy when I inquired.

The most recent printing seems to be 2009



Momaria


0 -1 0 0
6446 jomo
AA # 28 Gene E in NYC AA # 28 Gene E in NYC 4/10/2010 11:55:00 AM


Gene Edmiston was a member of my home group in 1970's in Southern California.

Gene was among our longest sober members on the W Coast of USA at the time. His

story is quite revealing as he first came to AA in NYC just three months after

the 1st printing of the Big Book in 1939. Gene was 12 stepped by a friend, Paul

Stanley and went to Oxford Group with Bill W, Hank P, Fitz M and the rest of the

NYC bunch. "I reached AA in July 4th weekend of 1939. I was the 28th AA

member, according to Bill Wilson, in AA." (!!)



In his story, Gene talks about the first NY meetings:

"When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill

Wilson, that had better than two years' sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst

had three, and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around New

York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren't meetings. It was just

gatherings, we'd get together, Bill would lead, and we'd talk back and forth

to Bill.



"I'll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don't mind.

See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. well, it happened a

few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New York, including Bill, because

they weren't affiliated with a church. But some of the other boys were going

to Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, and others, two or three of them.



"I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn't be over two or three of

us at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men would

come, smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything.



But they weren't stressing their experience of drinking (at the OG meetings).

They weren't getting religion there, it was spiritual. They were studying the

Lord's Prayer, and "Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox. We used "Sermon

on the Mount" for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That's where

they got the idea for the formation of our Program.



"And the reason they didn't bring Christ into the Program is, they wanted it

to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the principles that we are

practicing in AA. But we don't say "Christ" in it. They wanted everyone

who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a person

of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he

wouldn't feel comfortable, don't you see? And they got that idea out of

'Sermon on the Mount'."



Bill W promised Gene that when the BB was reprinted, Gene's story "The Booze

Fighter" would be included. But after a year, Gene got drunk and by the time he

got back in the early 1940's his chance to get into the BB was lost. Gene was

a wonderful, gentle giant of a man, an elder statesman in the finest sense. I

knew him for about 8 years in my home group until I moved away in 1979, and Gene

passed away a few years after that, he died sober and surrounded by AA friends.

His full story can be read at...

http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/genee_aa38.html



Gene's signature and that of his sponsor Paul Stanley, appear in the first AA

Big Book ever sold at a meeting. This book was purchased at Bill and Lois'

home at a meeting in 1939 by Virginia McLeod and is now in AA Archives.



The many signatures collected by Virginia in this book include early members

including Bill and Bob and Ebby, and some surprises like Jack Alexander. This

collection of signatures is fodder for its' own discussion thread. See it at

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-nellwing.html Nell Wing's story, and scroll

to a download link for a Word document.



John M

South Burlington, Vermont, US


0 -1 0 0
6447 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Upper Room Upper Room 4/10/2010 5:55:00 PM


I have a book entitled THE STORY OF THE UPPER ROOM, A 30TH anniversary

March-April 1935-1965 with photographs of copies and personnel.



<aalogsdon@aol.com>

(aalogsdon at aol.com)


0 -1 0 0
6448 Charlie C
re: early issues Upper Room early issues Upper Room 4/10/2010 10:04:00 PM


Only a handful of libraries seem to have the periods you are looking for, none

in electronic form.



These would be Lexington Theological Seminary in Kentucky, Drew University in

New Jersey (the main Methodist archives), Lutheran Theological Seminary in

Gettysburg, Univ of Texas Austin, and Southern Methodist University.



I found this info thru the "pay" version of WorldCat, which you might be able to

access at a local college library. The "free" version, WorldCat.org, doesn't

give quite the same detail re dates, volumes ...



You could also try contacting the Upper Room, http://upperroom.org ,

it isn't clear to me from their site what they may have, but presumably they

have a library of past issues.



Charlie C.

IM = route20guy



- - - -



From the moderator: see Message 6443

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6443



From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



Yes, the Upper Room headquarters in Nashville,

Tennessee has copies of all of the issues, from

the beginning, in their archives.



I was in correpondence with the present editor

several years ago, to see if they would be willing

to publish a volume with a whole year's worth of

copies from somewhere in the 1935 to 1939 period.

But this was not something that they wanted to

get involved in.



I don't know how difficult it would be to get a

look at the materials in their archives. The Upper

Room is not a library, which usually means that it

is much more difficult for a researcher to gain

access to their files.



You can still find copies of the Upper Room from

the 1935 to 1939 period on e-bay. I have a few

copies myself.



For some of the daily readings from the Upper Rooms

from the 1930's, see:



http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
6449 Donna Whitehurst
Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. 4/11/2010 5:17:00 PM


From Donna Whitehurst, Cindy Miller, Tom White, Corey Franks, Bernard Wood, and

Glenn Chesnut



- - - -



From: Donna Whitehurst <justme489@yahoo.com>

(justme489 at yahoo.com)



Wow, on the website listed below there is a man listed:



Barry C., April 14, 1941



Does anyone know if he is still around and if he goes to meeting? That would be

awesome! This year will be my first international convention; are there

generally oltimers there with more than 50 years? If so, I sure want to meet

and talk with them if they are not totally surrounded all the time (smile).



Thank you for everything you do on here!!



Donna W.



- - - -



From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



Here in Philadelphia, the 4021 Clubhouse hosted an AA meeting in memory of Ed B.

a longtime member (1/15/51) who recently passed away with 59 years of sobriety.



He was one of the founders of the Parkside Group -- then known as the Parkside

Interracial Group -- formed in part because white AA's believed that black AA's

should meet in their own groups.



- - - -



From: Tom White <tomwhite@cableone.net>

(tomwhite at cableone.net)



Was interested in this list because at least in theory I could be on it. My

sober date is Oct. 17, 1959, which, coded, would be 591017. I'm a little

uncertain if all this concern with length of sobriety is at all in the spirit of

the Program. One day at a time and all that. . . . Tom W



- - - -



From: Corey Franks <erb2b@yahoo.com>

(erb2b at yahoo.com)



HI... I had a call about two weeks ago from someone in Florida telling me that

and asking me at the same time this question. Is there anyone longer than our

lady whose here and in New York sometimes who has more than 65 years sober and

has been to all the Internationals as she has that you know of ? If not, it's

Ruthie O.



- - - -



From: Bernard Wood <bern-donna@earthlink.net>

(bern-donna at earthlink.net)



Carl D. got sober in Dec 1947 in Muskegon, Michigan (his story was posted here).

He was just admitted to the Bay Pines Veterans Administration hospital in St

Petersburg, Florida.



- - - -



From the moderator: <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



Folks are responding here to Message #6444 from Walt N.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6444

which points us to the Sobriety Anniversaries website which lists sobriety

anniversaries worldwide.



http://www.aahistory.com/newbirth.html



Do we have any way in fact of knowing which of the early people on this list are

still living? Such as Cynthia C. who got sober on March 13, 1940 or Mary R. who

got sober on June 10, 1944?



400313 Cynthia C

400511 Terry M

400815 Duke P

410414 Barry C

410417 Al M

410417 Tex A

411111 Clancy U

421010 Ed W

440610 Mary R

450111 Jack T

450613 Rosa B

450800 Cliff W

450929 Lib S

460106 Stan W

461111 Jack T

470630 Clinton F

470806 Larry S

471104 Steve H

480104 Frank B

480127 Wendy (from Iowa)

480401 Ann C

480614 David P

491231 Vernon L

500228 Leroy B

501117 Joe L

520318 John B

520909 Louise A

520918 William S

521115 Bev S

521225 Bob T

530101 Joseph J

530713 Howard A

530815 Jeff M

531105 Silva C

540419 Jack

540606 Cheeky Charley H

540828 Bill B

550427 Lee E

550715 Neill P5

551022 Jack B

560601 Bill C

560802 Millie W

560817 Richard S

560913 Isabelle Mac T

561229 Pinky H

570214 CJB

570219 Walt T

570330 John O

570404 John G

570424 Jack B

570502 Grace H

571117 Raymond M

571213 Leo R

570821 Jack C

580226 Henry R

580306 Jack H

580824 Frank H

580930 Dave H

581031 Diana H

590111 George S

590207 Ruth H

590407 Len L

590423 Lee L

590704 Rusty W

590919 George L

591217 Donald H

591224 Mike A

600104 Peter N

600205 Paul P

600214 Laurie P

600406 Jeff J

600504 Peter D

600508 Marti P

600717 John B

600725 Tom A

600923 Peter E

601002 Billie S

601027 Al C

601111 Hal K

601125 Keith M

601231 Reuben W

610104 Al W

610214 Tommie D

610306 Rosie (Al-anon) R

610401 Cactus Pete P

610515 Dorothy E

610616 Eddie W

610927 Al M


0 -1 0 0
6450 J. Lobdell
RE: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. 4/12/2010 11:56:00 AM


One problem with the list for determining the longest sober living person in AA

is that, so far as I can tell, none of those listed at the top of the list are

living.



Of those who are easily identifiable, Barry C. and Ed W. (founders in

Minneapolis and Ed wrote the Little Red Book) are dead for many years (Ed d.

1971?).



Duke P. of Toledo likewise dead, Al M. (Los Angeles founder) also dead, Clancy

U. of Hawaii likewise (Dick B could give you a date), Tex A. likewise (I think

he died fairly recently, if I have the right "Tex").



I can't place Cynthia C. and should be able to if she got sober in March 1940.



Another problem is that when I get down the list to a point between Stan W. (Jan

6 1946) and Jack T. (Nov 11 1946) I don't find Clyde B. (Jun 20 1946) whom I

know and who is alive.



Nor do I find, at the place where he ought to be, Chet H (Apr 4 1949) whom I

know and who is alive.



Nor do I find Mel B. (Apr 15 1950) whom many of us know and who is certainly

alive -- in fact he's speaking in Wapokoneta soon.



Nor do I find Clancy I. (Oct 31 [I think] 1958) whom most of AA knows and who is

certainly alive.



I think it might repay inquiry to check out all those on the list with dates

before the longest-sober living person we have found, but I'm not entirely

hopeful we'll come up with someone.



And who WAS Cynthia C?


0 -1 0 0
6451 nuevenueve@ymail.com
Longest living members: any of them solitary? Longest living members: any of them solitary? 4/13/2010 7:05:00 PM


Hello Group:



Do you know whether some of the longest living AA members were solitary* AAs?



Or who are the ones nowadays?

______________________________________



*Meaning by "solitaries" such people as platform workers, seamen, lost little

town miners, islanders, nomadic workers, disabled people, etc).



Thank you.


0 -1 0 0
6452 steven.calderbank@verizon.net
egomaniac with inferiority complex egomaniac with inferiority complex 4/11/2010 9:34:00 PM


Does anyone know where this phrase originated?


0 -1 0 0
6453 pamelafro88
Literature reference Literature reference 4/14/2010 3:01:00 AM


Can anyone tell me whereabouts the phrase about "if A.A. is ever destroyed, it

will be destroyed from within" (or something similar) can be found?



Pam F.


0 -1 0 0
6454 martinholmes76@ymail.com
Big Book foreword to 4th ed: how are members defined? Big Book foreword to 4th ed: how are members defined? 4/14/2010 3:50:00 AM


In the Foreword to the 4th edition of the Big Book (published in 2001), on page

xxiii, it says that "worldwide membership of A.A." has now grown to "an

estimated two million or more, with nearly 100,800 groups meeting in

approximately 150 countries around the world."



How did they define a member of AA when they were assembling this statistic?


0 -1 0 0
6455 Dougbert
AA and Buddhism AA and Buddhism 4/11/2010 4:50:00 PM


What was the name of the person who established the initial contact between AA

and the Buddhist world? Where exactly in Thailand did it occur? Do we have any

more details beyond the brief reference in As Bill Sees It?



Do you have any historical data on Dwight Goddard? Could he have been the

initial contact between A.A. and the Buddhist world? Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob

ever meet with Goddard and discuss Buddhism?



I am curious about page 223, As Bill Sees It, which states: "A minister in

Thailand wrote (Goddard was a minister in China and Japan), "We took A.A.s

Twelve Steps to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province, and the head

priest (we don't have priests in Buddhism) said, 'Why, these steps are fine! For

us as Buddhists, it might be slightly more acceptable if you had inserted the

word 'good' in your Steps instead of 'God.' Nevertheless, you say that it is God

as you understand Him, and that must certainly include the good. Yes, A.A.'s

Twelve Steps will surely be accepted by the Buddhists around here.'"



A former member of A.A. was Jack Kerouac the poet. He used Goddard's A Buddhist

Bible as his primary text, as he promoted Zen Buddhism and A.A. as being

complimentary. He died of alcoholism in 1969 at the age of 47.



One American who made his own attempt to establish an American Buddhist movement

was Dwight Goddard (1861-1939). Goddard had been a Christian missionary to

China, when he first came in contact with Buddhism. In 1928, he spent a year

living at a Zen monastery in Japan. In 1934, he founded "The Followers of

Buddha, an American Brotherhood", with the goal of applying the traditional

monastic structure of Buddhism more strictly than Senzaki and Sokei-an. The

group was largely unsuccessful: no Americans were recruited to join as monks and

attempts failed to attract a Chinese Chan (Zen) master to come to the United

States. However, Goddard's efforts as an author and publisher bore considerable

fruit. In 1930, he began publishing ZEN: A Buddhist Magazine. In 1932, he

collaborated with D. T. Suzuki (see below), on a translation of the Lankavatara

Sutra. That same year, he published the first edition of A Buddhist Bible, an

anthology of Buddhist scriptures focusing on those used in Chinese and Japanese

Zen, which was enormously influential.[3]



The timing of Goddard's efforts and Bill W's efforts were very similar. Can you

verify any connections?



Thanks,



Doug


0 -1 0 0
6456 Jay Pees
Re: Literature reference Literature reference 4/14/2010 4:59:00 PM


At the 1986 General Service Conference, Bob P. gave what the 1986 Final Report

called "a powerful and inspiring closing talk" titled "Our greatest danger:

rigidity."



He said: "If you were to ask me what is the greatest danger facing A.A.

today, I would have to answer the growing rigidity - the increasing demand

for absolute answers to nit-picking questions; pressure for G.S.O. to

'enforce' our Traditions, screening alcoholics at closed meetings,

prohibiting non-Conference approved literature, i.e., 'banning books,'

laying more and more rules on groups and members. And in this trend toward

rigidity, we are drifting farther and farther away from our co-founders.

Bill, in particular, must be spinning in his grave, for he was perhaps the

most permissive person I ever met. One of his favorite sayings was 'Every

group has the right to be wrong.'"



The above comes from http://www.silkworth.net/aabiography/bobp.html I

believe if someone can find his entire speech, it will have the material

asked about in it. I know I have seen it in conjunction with this speech but

can't seem to locate it.



- - - -



From G.C. the Moderator. http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html gives the part of Bob

P.'s speech which was published in the 1986 General Service Conference's final

report: "The Thirty-Sixth Annual Meeting of the General Service Conference of

Alcoholics Anonymous 1986 (Roosevelt Hotel, New York City, April 20-26, 1986),

Final Report."



- - - -



On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 3:01 AM, pamelafro88 <pamelafro@bigfoot.com> wrote:



> Can anyone tell me whereabouts the phrase about "if A.A. is ever destroyed,

> it will be destroyed from within" (or something similar) can be found?

>

> Pam F.


0 -1 0 0
6457 John Barton
Re: Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 4/13/2010 4:01:00 PM


This third group of "Clevelanders" were still making the drive to Akron for the

Weds meeting. The first meeting in Cleveland was May 11. 1939. This has been

well documented in both DBGO and How it Worked.



When Bill said (not an exact quote) by 1937 this thing had jumped over to

Cleveland he didn't mean they were having meetings or an AA group (as we know it

to be now) in Cleveland but that there was a group of "Clevelanders" who had

gotten sober.



John B



--- On Thu, 4/8/10, allan_gengler <agengler@wk.net> wrote:

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939



> The Forward to the Second Editions says there were

> THREE groups.

>

> From the FORWARD: "A second small group promptly took

> shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of

> a third at Cleveland. Besides these, there were scattered

> alcoholics who had picked up the basic ideas in Akron or New

> York who were trying to form groups in other cities. By late

> 1937, the number of members having substantial sobriety time

> behind them was sufficient to convince the membership that a

> new light had entered the dark world of the

> alcoholic."


0 -1 0 0
6458 truthfromgood12
Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC AA # 28 Gene E in NYC 4/12/2010 12:12:00 AM


Folks,



help me to understand the headcount discrepancy below. If Gene E. was #28, was

he #28 for New York? His statement below sort of implies to me that the thought

he was #28 in Alcoholics Anonymous. My understanding is that there were still

only 2 groups in 1939, a NY gathering and the Akron gathering. Regardless of how

many groups, the BB states there were 'about 100' sober when it was first

published, but as I recall, there is a footnote somewhere saying it was closer

to 80 but Bill W. rounded it up for convenience or some such thing at

publication time.



So if Gene E. was #28 does that mean for New York group? And does that therefore

mean that if one got sober, then slipped, he lost his '# assignment'? Probably

not, but it is odd claim to make. Point being, the implication here to me is

that of the majority of people sober, somewhere between 52 -72 additional (to

add up to 80-100 in USA) would have had to have been in Akron.



If Gene E. meant he was #28 in all of AA society in 1939, then the 80-100 count

is nowhere near accurate as reported in Big Book. Since Gene E. says there

'were less than 10 of us around New York' in 1939, that would lead me to believe

that Gene was #28 of anyone who had ever gotten sober via AA in NY. I further

would conclude that Bill W. DID count anyone who got sober for some period of

time even if they relapsed, disappeared later. How else could there be less than

10 in fellowship in NY yet he is #28?



Regards to all,



Keith R.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jomo" <contact.johnmoore@...> wrote:

>

> Gene Edmiston was a member of my home group in 1970's in Southern California.

> Gene was among our longest sober members on the W Coast of USA at the time.

His

> story is quite revealing as he first came to AA in NYC just three months after

> the 1st printing of the Big Book in 1939. Gene was 12 stepped by a friend,

Paul

> Stanley and went to Oxford Group with Bill W, Hank P, Fitz M and the rest of

the

> NYC bunch. "I reached AA in July 4th weekend of 1939. I was the 28th AA

> member, according to Bill Wilson, in AA." (!!)

>

> In his story, Gene talks about the first NY meetings:

> "When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill

> Wilson, that had better than two years' sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst

> had three, and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around New

> York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren't meetings. It was just

> gatherings, we'd get together, Bill would lead, and we'd talk back and forth

> to Bill.

>

> "I'll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don't mind.

> See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. well, it happened a

> few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New York, including Bill,

because

> they weren't affiliated with a church. But some of the other boys were going

> to Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, and others, two or three of them.

>

> "I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn't be over two or three of

> us at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men would

> come, smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything.

>

> But they weren't stressing their experience of drinking (at the OG meetings).

> They weren't getting religion there, it was spiritual. They were studying the

> Lord's Prayer, and "Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox. We used "Sermon

> on the Mount" for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That's where

> they got the idea for the formation of our Program.

>

> "And the reason they didn't bring Christ into the Program is, they wanted it

> to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the principles that we

are

> practicing in AA. But we don't say "Christ" in it. They wanted everyone

> who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a

person

> of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he

> wouldn't feel comfortable, don't you see? And they got that idea out of

> 'Sermon on the Mount'."

>

> Bill W promised Gene that when the BB was reprinted, Gene's story "The Booze

> Fighter" would be included. But after a year, Gene got drunk and by the time

he

> got back in the early 1940's his chance to get into the BB was lost. Gene was

> a wonderful, gentle giant of a man, an elder statesman in the finest sense. I

> knew him for about 8 years in my home group until I moved away in 1979, and

Gene

> passed away a few years after that, he died sober and surrounded by AA

friends.

> His full story can be read at...

> http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/genee_aa38.html

>

> Gene's signature and that of his sponsor Paul Stanley, appear in the first AA

> Big Book ever sold at a meeting. This book was purchased at Bill and Lois'

> home at a meeting in 1939 by Virginia McLeod and is now in AA Archives.

>

> The many signatures collected by Virginia in this book include early members

> including Bill and Bob and Ebby, and some surprises like Jack Alexander. This

> collection of signatures is fodder for its' own discussion thread. See it at

> http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-nellwing.html Nell Wing's story, and scroll

> to a download link for a Word document.

>

> John M

> South Burlington, Vermont, US

>


0 -1 0 0
6459 Soberholic
Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25 When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25 4/15/2010 12:13:00 PM


Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.



This time it would be really nice to have a dvd with subtitles in Scandinavian

and other European languages, too.



This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with

Spanish and French subtitles only.



Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in

Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning

rights done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My

Name Is Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least.

 

Keep the good thing going on!


0 -1 0 0
6460 jax760
Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC AA # 28 Gene E in NYC 4/15/2010 2:42:00 PM


For what it's worth............



Gene was the 23rd member of the New Jesrey Group of AA. He is correctly listed

as having 6 months of sobriety as of 1/1/1940. His sponsor was Paul Kellogg of

Roselle, NJ. Paul and Gussie Kellogg are mentioned frequently in Gene's story as

well as in Lois Wilson's diary in 1939.



At that time, July of 1939, when Gene sobered up there were approximately 48

East Coast (NY, NJ, CT, MA & MD) members who had achieved or were struggling to

maintain sobriety. This number (and the First One Hundred) does not include many

well know NY pioneers who were not suceeding at that time such as Wes W, Oscar

V, Freddie B, Russ R, Ebby T and more.



At the time the big book was published on April 1, 1939 there actually were 100

men and women who had recovered or were struggling to stay "recovered." This

includes 31 verifiable names from the Eastern Cities. I have been working for

some time on documenting, to the extent possible, the names and sober dates of

these men and women (The First One Hundred)and the details of their arrival in

AA/OG. When complete, I will release this list as part of a larger effort.



For whatever reason, back in the pioneeing days, the Akronites counted up their

members seperately from NY and vice a versa. The likely reason being is that

there were literally two seperate fellowships (Oxford Group in Akron and the

Group of Nameless Drunks in NY) until they were finally, more or less, united as

one fellowship after the publication of the Big Book and the beginning of

meetings called "Alcoholics Anonymous" in May of 1939 (i.e Cleveland May 11,

1939 at the home of Abby Goldrich)



There are a couple of "inconsistincies" in Gene's story that I don't doubt or

cast dispersion on but would point them out. He talks of attending OG meetings

in NY with Bill, Hank & Fitz. It has been well documented that NY split from the

OG in August of 37....perhaps Gene is thinking of the meetings they went to at

Steinway Hall in the summer and fall of 39 when Emmett Fox spoke?



He says Bill told him he was AA # 28...I don't doubt this at all but Bill

frequently spoke off the cuff and was bad with numbers in general especially

dates of sobriety, dates when things occurred etc. In researching the pioneers

and their sobriety dates there is often no rhyme or reasons as to who got

numbered and when, whether a slip did or did not reset the sober date, whether

names and "place of order" was dropped if members left, and I have given up

trying to decipher "the numbering systems" the boys and girls used. (It really

doesn't matter a whole lot anyway)



He talks of no more than 10 members around NY at the time....I don't doubt that

at a typical NY meeting in the summer of 1939 when the "Manhattan Group" was

bouncing around from place to place there would only be 10 drunks not counting

wives. (See"The Road from the Table on Clinton Street": Bill Wilson's Talk to

the Manhattan Group, NYC, 1955)The New Jesey Group would have had a similar

number doing meetings in Montclair, South Orange and Green Pond during the

Summer and Fall of 1939.



Gene's story is a great look back at what the NY fellowship was like the summer

of 39. I especially enjoyed reading about Gene's take on the difference between

AA spirituality and the more "specific religious" teaching of the

OG...."principles before personalities" was the result. My thanks to John M for

recording it and posting it on Silkworth.net where I had stumbled across it last

year. I immediately knew that this "gem" was Gene Edmiston from the New Jersey

Group of AA.



When I finish my reasearch on the First Forty, The First One Hundred and "The

Golden Road of Devotion" it will be released in one form or another for all to

see and use as they see fit.



God Bless



Another Layman on The Golden Road of Devotion



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "truthfromgood12" <kroloson@...> wrote:

>

> Folks,

>

> help me to understand the headcount discrepancy below. If Gene E. was #28, was

he #28 for New York? His statement below sort of implies to me that the thought

he was #28 in Alcoholics Anonymous. My understanding is that there were still

only 2 groups in 1939, a NY gathering and the Akron gathering. Regardless of how

many groups, the BB states there were 'about 100' sober when it was first

published, but as I recall, there is a footnote somewhere saying it was closer

to 80 but Bill W. rounded it up for convenience or some such thing at

publication time.

>

> So if Gene E. was #28 does that mean for New York group? And does that

therefore mean that if one got sober, then slipped, he lost his '# assignment'?

Probably not, but it is odd claim to make. Point being, the implication here to

me is that of the majority of people sober, somewhere between 52 -72

additional (to add up to 80-100 in USA) would have had to have been in Akron.

>

> If Gene E. meant he was #28 in all of AA society in 1939, then the 80-100

count is nowhere near accurate as reported in Big Book. Since Gene E. says

there 'were less than 10 of us around New York' in 1939, that would lead me to

believe that Gene was #28 of anyone who had ever gotten sober via AA in NY. I

further would conclude that Bill W. DID count anyone who got sober for some

period of time even if they relapsed, disappeared later. How else could there be

less than 10 in fellowship in NY yet he is #28?

>

> Regards to all,

>

> Keith R.

>

>

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jomo" <contact.johnmoore@> wrote:

> >

> > Gene Edmiston was a member of my home group in 1970's in Southern

California.

> > Gene was among our longest sober members on the W Coast of USA at the time.

His

> > story is quite revealing as he first came to AA in NYC just three months

after

> > the 1st printing of the Big Book in 1939. Gene was 12 stepped by a friend,

Paul

> > Stanley and went to Oxford Group with Bill W, Hank P, Fitz M and the rest of

the

> > NYC bunch. "I reached AA in July 4th weekend of 1939. I was the 28th AA

> > member, according to Bill Wilson, in AA." (!!)

> >

> > In his story, Gene talks about the first NY meetings:

> > "When I reached AA, there were only 3 people in New York including Bill

> > Wilson, that had better than two years' sobriety. Bill had four, Parkhurst

> > had three, and Fitzie Mayo had two. There were less than ten of us around

New

> > York. So our meetings for nearly a year, weren't meetings. It was just

> > gatherings, we'd get together, Bill would lead, and we'd talk back and forth

> > to Bill.

> >

> > "I'll tell you how they got away from the Oxford Group, if you don't mind.

> > See, for the first four years, it was religion, strictly. well, it happened

a

> > few of them were attending the Oxford Group in New York, including Bill,

because

> > they weren't affiliated with a church. But some of the other boys were

going

> > to Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church, and others, two or three of

them.

> >

> > "I went to the Oxford Group with those boys; wouldn't be over two or three

of

> > us at a time. The ladies, wives, would go in and sit down; out the men

would

> > come, smoke cigarettes, talk about baseball, everything.

> >

> > But they weren't stressing their experience of drinking (at the OG

meetings).

> > They weren't getting religion there, it was spiritual. They were studying

the

> > Lord's Prayer, and "Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox. We used "Sermon

> > on the Mount" for a couple of years after we got our Big Book. That's where

> > they got the idea for the formation of our Program.

> >

> > "And the reason they didn't bring Christ into the Program is, they wanted it

> > to be spiritual. Practically all religions practice the principles that we

are

> > practicing in AA. But we don't say "Christ" in it. They wanted everyone

> > who came in here, not be offended from a religious standpoint. Now if a

person

> > of the Jewish faith would come in, and hear Jesus Christ discussed, he

> > wouldn't feel comfortable, don't you see? And they got that idea out of

> > 'Sermon on the Mount'."

> >

> > Bill W promised Gene that when the BB was reprinted, Gene's story "The Booze

> > Fighter" would be included. But after a year, Gene got drunk and by the

time he

> > got back in the early 1940's his chance to get into the BB was lost. Gene

was

> > a wonderful, gentle giant of a man, an elder statesman in the finest sense.

I

> > knew him for about 8 years in my home group until I moved away in 1979, and

Gene

> > passed away a few years after that, he died sober and surrounded by AA

friends.

> > His full story can be read at...

> > http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/genee_aa38.html

> >

> > Gene's signature and that of his sponsor Paul Stanley, appear in the first

AA

> > Big Book ever sold at a meeting. This book was purchased at Bill and Lois'

> > home at a meeting in 1939 by Virginia McLeod and is now in AA Archives.

> >

> > The many signatures collected by Virginia in this book include early members

> > including Bill and Bob and Ebby, and some surprises like Jack Alexander.

This

> > collection of signatures is fodder for its' own discussion thread. See it

at

> > http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-nellwing.html Nell Wing's story, and

scroll

> > to a download link for a Word document.

> >

> > John M

> > South Burlington, Vermont, US

> >

>


0 -1 0 0
6461 allan_gengler
Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 4/14/2010 11:03:00 PM


That's interesting. I double checked DBGO and sure enough it says this in

Chapter 12:



That night, Al went to the meeting at T. Henry's. "I attended several of these

meetings before I discovered that not all the people there were alcoholics," he

said. But in spite of his being Catholic, his reaction to the meetings was good.



"We went to Akron for several weeks," he said, "before it was finally

decided to undertake the organization of the Cleveland group. Toward the middle

of May 1939, the first meeting was held in this room. At that meeting, there

were a number of Akron people and all the Cleveland people.



"When we began to have meetings, there was considerable debate as to what

we would call the group. Various names were suggested. No others seemed to be

fitting, so we began to refer to ourselves as Alcoholics Anonymous."





----------



It also refers many times prior to that as the "Cleveland contingent" ..... so I

guess that's what the second edition means when it writes "A second small group

promptly took shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of a

third at Cleveland."



So they didn't physically meet in Cleveland until May of 1939, but there was

clearly a Cleveland group.









--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John Barton <jax760@...> wrote:

>

> This third group of "Clevelanders" were still making the drive to Akron for

the Weds meeting. The first meeting in Cleveland was May 11. 1939. This has been

well documented in both DBGO and How it Worked.

>

> When Bill said (not an exact quote) by 1937 this thing had jumped over to

Cleveland he didn't mean they were having meetings or an AA group (as we know it

to be now) in Cleveland but that there was a group of "Clevelanders" who had

gotten sober.

>

> John B

>

> --- On Thu, 4/8/10, allan_gengler <agengler@...> wrote:

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939

>

> > The Forward to the Second Editions says there were

> > THREE groups.

> >

> > From the FORWARD: "A second small group promptly took

> > shape at New York, to be followed in 1937 with the start of

> > a third at Cleveland. Besides these, there were scattered

> > alcoholics who had picked up the basic ideas in Akron or New

> > York who were trying to form groups in other cities. By late

> > 1937, the number of members having substantial sobriety time

> > behind them was sufficient to convince the membership that a

> > new light had entered the dark world of the

> > alcoholic."

>


0 -1 0 0
6462 John Moore
Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC AA # 28 Gene E in NYC 4/14/2010 9:14:00 PM


I pondered the same question for years Keith. The Big Book came out in

April 1935 and Gene got sober in July ... and I did hear Gene say the same

thing many many times over the years. He knew what he was told, and he

believed he was # 28 in AA, according to Bill W.



However Gene was a newcomer at the time, and a very shaky one, so it fits

better in my mind that he was # 28 in NY, no matter what he thought. Too

late to quiz him again, but the same statement raised eyebrows in the 1970's

just as it does today.



Akron had a lot more members. Maybe if NY had around 30 members and Akron

had around 60, you might get close to 100, is what I figure.



Bill and Bob assigned numbers and I am pretty sure, from talking to my aged

sponsor, that they did not re use any numbers. In Bill's words from a talk

about the creation of the Big Book, he said that AA "boasted" about 100

members, and Bill went on to say it might well have been that, a boast...



John


0 -1 0 0
6463 John R Reid
AA Oldtimers at the International and What is on offer at your 1st International??? AA Oldtimers at the International and What is on offer at your 1st International??? 4/14/2010 6:59:00 PM


Dear Donna,



(1) Yes there are heaps of Members at the International with over 50 years

continuous Sobriety and the Oldtimers Meeting is one of the major highlights.



(2) We are also looking forward to welcoming you and everyone else from your

Group, District, Area and Region, to the Australian Hospitality Room which will

be in the La Reina Rooms on the mezzanine floor of the Hilton Palacio del Rio on

the corner of Alamo and Market and across the road from the Henry Gonzalez

Convention Center.



Thanks and Kind Regards & all the very best for a successful International, from

John R on behalf of the interim committee for the Australian DownUnder Rock

Solid Boomerang Group which will officially convene in San Antonio from 30 June

2010 and disbanded 5 July 2010. And like all new Groups we will be looking for

Members to join the Group, to be of Service and enjoy the Fellowship & Fun and

to Share the Hospitality with others. (all the work done by this committee is

done in the normal 12 Step manner of not seeing reward or recognition and to

simple stay sober by being of some small service).



AA AND THE AUSTRALIAN BOOMERANG, BILL W's DETERMINATION



Why do so many Members muse the following, at the International Conventions?



"We have this unexplained but magnetic attraction to the Australian Boomerang

pins we and why so many of us found the Australian Boomerang to be the most

essential pin for so many of us to take home from an International, but why???"



As with all questions in the Spiritual Realm of AA's language of the heart, the

answers can be found via good sponsorship and from approved literature.



Broken Hill Jack said "when we were active alcoholics we used the determination

streak to get a drink, now we are sober we can use that same determination to

stay sober, we survived when we were drinking, now we are sober we can kick on

by going straight to God as in the first word in the Serenity Prayer and be

determined to show others how we have recovered and the benefits of long term

sobriety will keep coming back to us, just like the Boomerang".



Bill W's experience and determination via the boomerang can be found on Pages 29

and 30 of 'Pass It On':- Quote: Page 29/4th paragraph on: - Encouraged by his

grandfather, Bill plunged into a succession of activities with single-minded

determination - a trait that remained with him throughout his life. One project

that stood out in his memory was the boomerang project.



"My grandfather got in the habit of coming to me with what he thought were

impossible projects," Bill recalled. "One day he said to me, 'Will-for that's

what he called me-'Will, I've been reading a book on Australia, and it says that

the natives down there have something they called boomerangs, which is a weapon

they throw, and if it misses its mark, it turns and returns to the thrower. And

Will,' he said challengingly, 'it says in this book that nobody but an

Australian can make and throw a boomerang'



(Bill W went on) "My hackles rose when he said that no one but an Australian

could do it. I can remember how I cried out, "Well, I will be the first white

man ever to make and throw a boomerang!" I suppose at this particular juncture I

was 11 or 12."



For most children, Bill later reflected, such an ambition might have lasted a

few days or at most a few weeks. "But mine was a power drive that kept on for

six months, and I did nothing else during all that time but whittle on those

infernal boomerangs. I sawed the headboard out of my bed to get just the right

piece of wood, and out in the old workshop at night by the light of the lantern

I whittled away."



Finally, the day came when Bill made a boomerang that worked. He called his

grandfather to watch him as he threw the boomerang. It circled the churchyard

near their house and almost struck Fayette in the head as it came back.



"I remember how ecstatically happy and stimulated I was by the crowning

success," Bill said. "I had become Number One man."



Success with the boomerang now set Bill to proving himself a Number One man in

other activities. He decided that with enough perseverance and determination, he

could do anything he set his mind to. Unquote.



Thanks are to God for our Founders, Pioneers and Oldtimers; those who have gone

before us who had a determination streak and were prepared to persevere with the

growth of AA and to keep coming back to provide a solid foundation for the

Fellowship.


0 -1 0 0
6464 Doug B.
Re: early issues Upper Room early issues Upper Room 4/12/2010 3:37:00 AM


I have all of the Upper Rooms published from 1935 to 1960 except 4.



2 from 1954....1 from 1958 and 1 from 1959



Since it is still published and they own the copyright....making

reprints would be up to them...if you are looking something here or

there...I could scan a few....



Write directly to me at my e-mail address:

<dougb@aahistory.com>

(dougb at aahistory.com)



Doug B.

http://www.aahistory.com


0 -1 0 0
6465 Norman Ogden
Re: The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript 4/12/2010 3:24:00 PM


I have a copy of the early manuscript.



Write me at my e-mail address --



<etatselaer@yahoo.com>

(etatselaer at yahoo.com)





-- and tell me your mailing address and I'll

send you one reply.


0 -1 0 0
6466 grault
Re: AA and Buddhism AA and Buddhism 4/15/2010 4:31:00 PM


Although I can't answer your questions, perhaps group members would be

interested in more recent history of A.A. in Thailand. (I've been a long-term

visitor to Thailand for over ten years, and since retiring about four years ago

have been living there over half each year.)



Despite the reference in As Bill Sees It, the fact is that until very recently

A.A. in Thailand has been virtually entirely composed of expats,

English-speaking travelers, and the like. . . not Thais.



Just about three or four years ago one or two of our expat members introduced

some of the A.A. basics to a friendly English-speaking Thai nurse (Thailand's

"Sister Ignatia"?!) who supervises the detox and recovery program at a

"treatment center" in Khon Kaen, in northeastern Thailand... She welcomed any

help offered, and began to use some of A.A.'s ideas.



Nowadays in Thailand, A.A. is a bit comparable to what it was in the U.S. in,

say, 1939. It's exciting! A.A. is (very slowly and laboriously) spreading into

indigenous non-English-speaking Thais. Each year recently an indigenous Thai

contingent has attended and enjoyed the A.A. conventions in Pattaya and Hua Hin

(a translator is utilized for much of the program). Last year there was a small

conference in Bangkok partially organized and funded by G.S.O. and attended by

about twenty expat members, two English-speaking Thais, and two representatives

from G.S.O.



Two "problems" in the spread of Thai-A.A. are that the word used for "God" in

the Thai-language version of the Big Book means "the Christian God" to them, and

of course the treatment center employs "A.A." for alcoholism and drug addiction

indiscriminately. Neither issue should prevent the full spread of the

availability of A.A.'s recovery program to any and all indigenous

non-English-speaking Thai alcoholics over the next few years.







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Dougbert <dougbert8@...> wrote:

>

> What was the name of the person who established the initial contact between AA

and the Buddhist world? Where exactly in Thailand did it occur? Do we have any

more details beyond the brief reference in As Bill Sees It?

>

> Do you have any historical data on Dwight Goddard? Could he have been the

initial contact between A.A. and the Buddhist world? Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob

ever meet with Goddard and discuss Buddhism?

>

> I am curious about page 223, As Bill Sees It, which states: "A minister in

Thailand wrote (Goddard was a minister in China and Japan), "We took A.A.s

Twelve Steps to the largest Buddhist monastery in this province, and the head

priest (we don't have priests in Buddhism) said, 'Why, these steps are fine! For

us as Buddhists, it might be slightly more acceptable if you had inserted the

word 'good' in your Steps instead of 'God.' Nevertheless, you say that it is God

as you understand Him, and that must certainly include the good. Yes, A.A.'s

Twelve Steps will surely be accepted by the Buddhists around here.'"

>


0 -1 0 0
6467 Gary Becktell
Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC AA # 28 Gene E in NYC 4/18/2010 12:47:00 AM


In April, 1935, the Big Book was still 4 years away from 'coming out'.



G





----- Original Message -----

From: John Moore

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA # 28 Gene E in NYC



I pondered the same question for years Keith. The Big Book came out in

April 1935 and Gene got sober in July ....


0 -1 0 0
6468 Cindy Miller
4021 Clubhouse of Philadelphia old-timers panel April 24 4021 Clubhouse of Philadelphia old-timers panel April 24 4/16/2010 5:12:00 PM


The historic (64 years) 4021 Clubhouse of Philadelphia has a

committee of friends who are dedicated to helping it stay afloat in

these difficult financial times. They are hosting an Old-Timers Panel on April

24, 2010 at a facility nearby.



Among the speakers will be Clyde B.( 63 years).



Also speaking is Liz B. (57 years) from Queens, NY.



And we will have Mary R., who has 50 years in Al-Anon.



The date is April 24, 2010, and the event runs from 12:00-5:00.

The address is 801 S. 48th St (Calvary Community Center) Philadelphia, PA.



P.S. Please forgive me if I have any of these sobriety times

incorrectly!!



Best,

Cindy Miller

> `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>



- - - -



> From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

>

> **64 YEARS**

>

> The longest living in the area where I live is Clyde B., June 20,

> 1946. In a couple of months or so, he will have 64 years of sobriety.

>


0 -1 0 0
6469 Luvfrmnana@aol.com
Re: RE: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. 4/18/2010 3:32:00 AM


There is one person listed on the anniversary site that seems to be missing on

the list that is currently being discussed: Esther C., July 23, 1943. She has

passed away as the site list states. You will find her memorial book and part

of her story on the site also.



In His service,

Peny


0 -1 0 0
6470 Boyd
Early 1970s pamphlet: Is A.A. For You? Early 1970s pamphlet: Is A.A. For You? 4/15/2010 9:08:00 AM


Does anyone have a photocopy or PDF of the early

1970's version of the A.A. pamphlet, Is A.A. For You?



Thanks, Boyd P.


0 -1 0 0
6471 Glenn Chesnut
Singleness of purpose Singleness of purpose 4/21/2010 3:54:00 PM


From: "Dolores" <dolli@dr-rinecker.de>

(dolli at dr-rinecker.de)



I have a question, where does the phrase

"Singleness of Purpose" come from? Who used

it first?



Dolores



- - - -



From the moderator:



I would start by looking at the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, the chapter

on Tradition Five, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its

message to the alcoholic who still suffers."



1st line of 5th paragraph refers to: "this singleness of purpose"



And then the 1st line of the next paragraph refers to: "the wisdom of A.A.'s

single purpose."



And then several paragraphs further along it says: "Thank heaven I came up with

the right answer for that one. It was based foursquare on the single purpose of

A.A."



Also see the chapter on Tradition Eight:



The first paragraph says: "Every time we have tried to professionalize our

Twelfth Step, the result has been exactly the same: Our single purpose has been

defeated."



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)


0 -1 0 0
6472 Dolores
Burning desire Burning desire 4/15/2010 10:42:00 AM


Greetings, Thank you all for the the information

that I have received thru History Lovers. I have

a question, where does the phrase "burning desire"

come from? Who used it first?



At the beginning of meetings, one often hears

the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?"



What does this really mean? as I often find it

misused by some members to complain about other

members.



Thanks, Dolores


0 -1 0 0
6473 John & Linda Dunn
Re: early issues Upper Room early issues Upper Room 4/20/2010 10:17:00 PM


Doug,



I wrote the Upper Room and they sent me copies

of April, May and June 1935. October, November

and December 1937.



Thought I would pass it on.



John



- - - -



From: Doug B. <dougb@aahistory.com>

Subject: Re: early issues Upper Room



I have all of the Upper Rooms published from 1935 to 1960 except 4.



2 from 1954....1 from 1958 and 1 from 1959


0 -1 0 0
6474 JoeA
Re: AA and Buddhism AA and Buddhism 4/20/2010 6:39:00 AM


As a practicing Rinzai Buddhist, I appreciate this thread. In the civilian world

there is a growing body of work for Buddhists in AA and we are used to people

twisting our structures to suit their preconceptions (such as the "head priest"

notation in Bill W.'s story, quoted previously).



The five basic Precepts of Buddhism are; Avoid killing, avoid lying, avoid

stealing, avoid sexual misconduct and avoid intoxication. They are a good

expression of my personal work with Steps 10, 11 and 12.



Buddhism will eventual evolve to an American flavor, as it has in every culture

it has entered since is moved out of northern India a few centuries BC (or BCE

to use the new, hip, politically correct designation). Even when it does, it

will not be a problem for Buddhists to approach and use the Steps because of the

very reason given by the "high priest." Most Buddhist understand that the

origins of AA through a group of Christians means the Christian themes and terms

are both key to the message and unavoidable. It is not our charge to cut away

the roots of what has grown within the contemporary fellowship.



Rather, in my own jobs of sponsoring and giving free classes through a local

recovery center (in Raleigh, North Carolina - not Thailand), I hope to help

people find the depth of their own religion in their quest for spirituality and

avoid anything that might suggest they convert to my own spirituality. The

Higher Power for me is what is true, and what has been shown true throughout my

few decades of recovery is that the truth is found by living the principles

expounded by the Steps and with all faiths. The effort to delve deeper and wider

into the religions reveals more of the practical meaning of the Steps.



And the evidence suggests that the principles of AA have been shown to be true

and available to anyone who follows point (c) - "that God (as you understand

god) could and would if he were sought."


0 -1 0 0
6475 jax760
Act as If Act as If 4/20/2010 10:28:00 AM


I recently came across this which tweaked my curiosity.



"The rule for us is perfectly simple. Do not waste time bothering whether you

"love" thy neighbor; act as if you did. As soon as we do this we find one of the

great secrets. When you are behaving as if you loved someone, you will presently

come to love him."



"Some Christian writers use the word charity to describe not only Christian love

between human beings, but also God's love for man and man's love for God. About

the second of these two, people are often worried. They are told they ought to

love God. They can not find any such feeling in themselves. The answer is the

same as before. Act as if you did. Do not sit trying to manufacture feelings.

Ask yourself, "If I were sure that I loved God, what would I do?' When you have

found the answer go and do it.



pp.131-132 Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis



Recognizing the AA fellowship suggestions of "Act as If" and "Fake it till you

make it" I decided to follow the trail and the joy in finding the following from

William James



"If you want a quality, act as if you already had it."



Although I find this quote all over the internet I could not source it to a

particular work of James.



I found this by Norman Vincent Peale



Enthusiasm Makes the Difference p.20



Many years ago the noted psychologist, William James, announced his famous "As

If" principle. He said "If you want a quality act as if already had it." Try the

"as if" technique. It is packed with power and it works.



I also came across this Wiki Post



Sam Shoemaker gets the credit for originating the "Act As If" and "Fake It Until

You Make It" practice that is popular in Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics

Anonymous circles. Note that Shoemaker invented that clever persuasion technique

to help in the religious conversion of doubtful newcomers, not to help anyone to

quit drinking or drugging:



"Act As If"



In 1954, the Reverend Samuel M. Shoemaker wrote a story about an unfortunate who

came to him admitting that he didn't believe in God and certainly didn't know

how to pray. Shoemaker asked him to "try an experiment," as he had nothing to

lose. He asked him to get down on his knees and say anything at all that came to

his mind, addressing his thoughts to "The Unknown." He then asked if the man

could read just one chapter from the Bible, from the book of John. Solely out of

respect for Shoemaker, the man obliged, but fighting every step of the way. This

went on for some time, until one day the man actually began praying to God and

reading the Bible and other works on his own. The man eventually became a

spiritual leader within his church. Shoemaker believed that this was possible

because the man "acted as if he had faith" until faith came by accident, or

"until there was an opening for God to come through."



The slogan "act as if" has been used in AA circles ever since.



A Ghost In The Closet: Is There An Alcoholic Hiding?, Dale Mitchell, Page 194.



The author of this post erroneously gives credit for "inventing" the "technique"

to Sam Shoemaker who could have gotten it from either William James or C.S.

Lewis. But Sam surely may have introduced this to the fellowship.



I also found this by Sam Shoemaker in the October 1955 Grapevine "The Spiritual

Angle"



"When one has done the best he can with intellectual reasoning, there yet comes

a time for decision and action. It may be a relatively simple decision: really

to enter wholly into the experiment. The approach is more like science than like

philosophy. We do not so much try to reason it out in abstract logic; we choose

a hypothesis, act as if it were true, and see whether it is. If it's not, we can

discard it. If it is, we are free to call the experiment a success."



Several other things in the CS Lewis book caught my eye as I found many

similarites with the philosophy of the 12&12. It would appear that Lewis's

writings were an influence on both Sam Shoemaker and Father John Ford who helped

Bill with the 12&12. But one example is given below.



12&12 p.109



From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who

still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered

his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call

Him by name.



CF - Lewis ..."presently come to love him."



If anyone else has any insight on Act as If or Father John Ford's work on the

12&12 I'd be quite interested.



God Bless



John B


0 -1 0 0
6476 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Act as If Act as If 4/21/2010 4:52:00 PM


Hans Vaihinger, the "Philosophy of As If," was

the important figure here.



John,



All of these references that you have given go back, either directly or at

second hand, to a German philosopher who was very famous and extremely well

known in the very late nineteenth and early twentieth century. During that

period, all sorts of people read him and were influenced by his ideas, although

he has become little more than a footnote or a sentence or two in modern works

on philosophy and the history of philosophy.

__________________________________



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Vaihinger



<<Hans Vaihinger (September 25, 1852 - December 18, 1933) was a German

philosopher, best known as a Kant scholar and for his Philosophie des Als Ob

(Philosophy of As If), published in 1911, but written more than thirty years

earlier.[3]



Vaihinger was born in Nehren, Wuerttemberg, Germany, near Tuebingen, and raised

in what he himself described as a "very religious milieu". He was educated at

Tuebingen, Leipzig, and Berlin, became a tutor and later a philosophy professor

at Strasbourg before moving to the university at Halle in 1884. From 1892, he

was a full professor.



In Philosophie des Als Ob, he argued that human beings can never really know the

underlying reality of the world, and that as a result we construct systems of

thought and then assume that these match reality: we behave "as if" the world

matches our models. In particular, he used examples from the physical sciences,

such as protons, electrons, and electromagnetic waves. None of these phenomena

have been observed directly, but science pretends that they exist, and uses

observations made on these assumptions to create new and better constructs.

Vaihinger admitted that he had several precursors, especially Jeremy Bentham's

Theory of Fictions. In the preface to the English edition of his work, Vaihinger

expressed his Principle of Fictionalism. This is that "an idea whose theoretical

untruth or incorrectness, and therewith its falsity, is admitted is not for that

reason practically valueless and useless; for such an idea, in spite of its

theoretical nullity, may have great practical importance."



This philosophy, though, is wider than just science. One can never be sure that

the world will still exist tomorrow, but we usually assume that it does. Alfred

Adler, the founder of Individual Psychology, was profoundly influenced by

Vaihinger's theory of useful fictions, incorporating the idea of psychological

fictions into his personality construct of a fictional final goal.>>

__________________________________



Notice that he even influenced people like Alfred Adler. The kind of

Neo-Freudian psychiatry that appeared in Adler was a major influence on the way

in which early AA's looked at the psychological aspects of the 12-step program.


0 -1 0 0
6477 luv2shop
Re: Singleness of purpose Singleness of purpose 4/21/2010 4:39:00 PM


Also on page 232 of "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" the second full

paragraph contains the following by Bill Wilson: "....Our society, therefore,

will prudently cleave to its single purpose: the carrying of the message to the

alcoholic who still suffers...."



I haven't seen where "singleness" is used anywhere

there, just "single purpose."


0 -1 0 0
6478 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: AA and Buddhism AA and Buddhism 4/20/2010 5:57:00 AM


Dr. Earle M's story is important here:



See Message #773 "Dr. Earle M -- Grapevine excerpt"

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/773



and Message #3577 "Big Book Story Author Interview: Dr. Earle M."

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3577



Also Message #5563

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5563


0 -1 0 0
6479 Joseph Trevaskis
Re: Burning desire Burning desire 4/21/2010 5:42:00 PM


Dolores,

 

How is Munich?

 

The phrase "burning desire" is a psychological term used to express a urgent

need to be addresses. I'm not sure who first coined it, I believe outside of AA

and from US. Iknow what you mean about being used incorrectly by many. That is

how people behave though.

 

Love & regards to all.

 

Joe (Scotland) 



--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Dolores <dolli@dr-rinecker.de> wrote:





From: Dolores <dolli@dr-rinecker.de>

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 3:42 PM





 







Greetings, Thank you all for the the information

that I have received thru History Lovers. I have

a question, where does the phrase "burning desire"

come from? Who used it first?



At the beginning of meetings, one often hears

the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?"



What does this really mean? as I often find it

misused by some members to complain about other

members.



Thanks, Dolores

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6480 Mary Latowski
Re: Act as If Act as If 4/22/2010 8:41:00 AM


Sorry Glenn, I meant "go through the motion earn the emotion, go through

the action, earn the reaction"



On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 8:38 AM, Mary Latowski <mplatowski@gmail.com> wrote:



> Not sure of the origin of the following but my 1st sponsor used to quote it

> often:

>

> "Go the the motion and earn the emotion, go the action and earn the

> reaction"

>

> Thoughts?

> Mary Pat Latowski

> South Bend

>

> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:28 AM, jax760 <jax760@yahoo.com> wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> I recently came across this which tweaked my curiosity.

>>

>> "The rule for us is perfectly simple. Do not waste time bothering whether

>> you "love" thy neighbor; act as if you did. As soon as we do this we find

>> one of the great secrets. When you are behaving as if you loved someone, you

>> will presently come to love him."

>>

>> "Some Christian writers use the word charity to describe not only

>> Christian love between human beings, but also God's love for man and man's

>> love for God. About the second of these two, people are often worried. They

>> are told they ought to love God. They can not find any such feeling in

>> themselves. The answer is the same as before. Act as if you did. Do not sit

>> trying to manufacture feelings. Ask yourself, "If I were sure that I loved

>> God, what would I do?' When you have found the answer go and do it.

>>

>> pp.131-132 Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis

>>

>> Recognizing the AA fellowship suggestions of "Act as If" and "Fake it till

>> you make it" I decided to follow the trail and the joy in finding the

>> following from William James

>>

>> "If you want a quality, act as if you already had it."

>>

>> Although I find this quote all over the internet I could not source it to

>> a particular work of James.

>>

>> I found this by Norman Vincent Peale

>>

>> Enthusiasm Makes the Difference p.20

>>

>> Many years ago the noted psychologist, William James, announced his famous

>> "As If" principle. He said "If you want a quality act as if already had it."

>> Try the "as if" technique. It is packed with power and it works.

>>

>> I also came across this Wiki Post

>>

>> Sam Shoemaker gets the credit for originating the "Act As If" and "Fake It

>> Until You Make It" practice that is popular in Alcoholics Anonymous and

>> Narcotics Anonymous circles. Note that Shoemaker invented that clever

>> persuasion technique to help in the religious conversion of doubtful

>> newcomers, not to help anyone to quit drinking or drugging:

>>

>> "Act As If"

>>

>> In 1954, the Reverend Samuel M. Shoemaker wrote a story about an

>> unfortunate who came to him admitting that he didn't believe in God and

>> certainly didn't know how to pray. Shoemaker asked him to "try an

>> experiment," as he had nothing to lose. He asked him to get down on his

>> knees and say anything at all that came to his mind, addressing his thoughts

>> to "The Unknown." He then asked if the man could read just one chapter from

>> the Bible, from the book of John. Solely out of respect for Shoemaker, the

>> man obliged, but fighting every step of the way. This went on for some time,

>> until one day the man actually began praying to God and reading the Bible

>> and other works on his own. The man eventually became a spiritual leader

>> within his church. Shoemaker believed that this was possible because the man

>> "acted as if he had faith" until faith came by accident, or "until there was

>> an opening for God to come through."

>>

>> The slogan "act as if" has been used in AA circles ever since.

>>

>> A Ghost In The Closet: Is There An Alcoholic Hiding?, Dale Mitchell, Page

>> 194.

>>

>> The author of this post erroneously gives credit for "inventing" the

>> "technique" to Sam Shoemaker who could have gotten it from either William

>> James or C.S. Lewis. But Sam surely may have introduced this to the

>> fellowship.

>>

>> I also found this by Sam Shoemaker in the October 1955 Grapevine "The

>> Spiritual Angle"

>>

>> "When one has done the best he can with intellectual reasoning, there yet

>> comes a time for decision and action. It may be a relatively simple

>> decision: really to enter wholly into the experiment. The approach is more

>> like science than like philosophy. We do not so much try to reason it out in

>> abstract logic; we choose a hypothesis, act as if it were true, and see

>> whether it is. If it's not, we can discard it. If it is, we are free to call

>> the experiment a success."

>>

>> Several other things in the CS Lewis book caught my eye as I found many

>> similarites with the philosophy of the 12&12. It would appear that Lewis's

>> writings were an influence on both Sam Shoemaker and Father John Ford who

>> helped Bill with the 12&12. But one example is given below.

>>

>> 12&12 p.109

>>

>> From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter

>> who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still

>> considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love

>> God and call Him by name.

>>

>> CF - Lewis ..."presently come to love him."

>>

>> If anyone else has any insight on Act as If or Father John Ford's work on

>> the 12&12 I'd be quite interested.

>>

>> God Bless

>>

>> John B

>>

>>

>>

>

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6481 Kimball ROWE
Re: Singleness of purpose Singleness of purpose 4/23/2010 1:14:00 PM


I have never seen SINGLENESS in print, so I suspect it is just an adjective made

up to describe the purpose of the AA fellowship. The single purpose is not

exactly the same as the sole purpose or the primary purpose.



Sole/Primary/Single Purpose





Sole Purpose of AA:



"Sobriety - freedom from alcohol - through the teaching and practice of the

Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of an A.A. group. Groups have repeatedly

tried other activities and they have always failed. If we don't t stick to these

principles, we shall almost surely collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help

anyone." (a statement by Bill W. which was reaffirmed as a guiding principle of

A.A. by the members of the A.A. General Service Conferences of 1969, 1970 and

1972.)





Primary Purpose (Individually):



"Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve

sobriety." (from the AA Preamble)





Primary Purpose (Group):



"Each group has but one primary purpose to carry its message to the alcoholic

who still suffers." (Tradition 5)





Single Purpose (much like the sole purpose):



"Our Society, therefore, will prudently cleave to its single purpose: the

carrying of the message to the alcoholic who still suffers." ( A.A. Comes of

Age, page 232)





If you consider "teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps" the same as

"carrying of the message," then the sole purpose and the single purpose are the

same. In reference to the individuals primary purpose, I used to have an old

Akron pamphlet that talked about the individuals "secondary" purpose, "to be

restored back into the society from which we came," but alas, I can no longer

find the pamphlet.







----- Original Message -----

From: Glenn Chesnut<mailto:glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

To: AAHistoryLovers group<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 1:54 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Singleness of purpose







From: "Dolores" <dolli@dr-rinecker.de <mailto:dolli@dr-rinecker.de>>

(dolli at dr-rinecker.de)



I have a question, where does the phrase

"Singleness of Purpose" come from? Who used

it first?



Dolores



- - - -



From the moderator:



I would start by looking at the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, the

chapter on Tradition Five, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry

its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."



1st line of 5th paragraph refers to: "this singleness of purpose"



And then the 1st line of the next paragraph refers to: "the wisdom of A.A.'s

single purpose."



And then several paragraphs further along it says: "Thank heaven I came up

with the right answer for that one. It was based foursquare on the single

purpose of A.A."



Also see the chapter on Tradition Eight:



The first paragraph says: "Every time we have tried to professionalize our

Twelfth Step, the result has been exactly the same: Our single purpose has been

defeated."



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6482 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: Re: Act as If Act as If 4/22/2010 3:07:00 AM


Apropos: "If you have a resentment you want to be free of, if you will pray for

the person or the thing you resent, you will be free. If you will ask in prayer

for everything you want for yourself to be given them, you will be free ... Even

when you don't really want it for them, and your prayers are only words and you

don't mean it, go ahead and do it anyway. Do it every day for two weeks and you

will find you have come to mean it..." (Freedom from Bondage, Big Book).



Also, "If you don't like people, put up with them as well as you can. Don't try

to love; you can't, you'll only strain yourelf." (E.M. Forster)







To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:52:50 -0700

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Act as If











Hans Vaihinger, the "Philosophy of As If," was

the important figure here.



John,



All of these references that you have given go back, either directly or at

second hand, to a German philosopher who was very famous and extremely well

known in the very late nineteenth and early twentieth century. During that

period, all sorts of people read him and were influenced by his ideas, although

he has become little more than a footnote or a sentence or two in modern works

on philosophy and the history of philosophy.

__________________________________



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Vaihinger



<<Hans Vaihinger (September 25, 1852 - December 18, 1933) was a German

philosopher, best known as a Kant scholar and for his Philosophie des Als Ob

(Philosophy of As If), published in 1911, but written more than thirty years

earlier.[3]



Vaihinger was born in Nehren, Wuerttemberg, Germany, near Tuebingen, and raised

in what he himself described as a "very religious milieu". He was educated at

Tuebingen, Leipzig, and Berlin, became a tutor and later a philosophy professor

at Strasbourg before moving to the university at Halle in 1884. From 1892, he

was a full professor.



In Philosophie des Als Ob, he argued that human beings can never really know the

underlying reality of the world, and that as a result we construct systems of

thought and then assume that these match reality: we behave "as if" the world

matches our models. In particular, he used examples from the physical sciences,

such as protons, electrons, and electromagnetic waves. None of these phenomena

have been observed directly, but science pretends that they exist, and uses

observations made on these assumptions to create new and better constructs.

Vaihinger admitted that he had several precursors, especially Jeremy Bentham's

Theory of Fictions. In the preface to the English edition of his work, Vaihinger

expressed his Principle of Fictionalism. This is that "an idea whose theoretical

untruth or incorrectness, and therewith its falsity, is admitted is not for that

reason practically valueless and useless; for such an idea, in spite of its

theoretical nullity, may have great practical importance."



This philosophy, though, is wider than just science. One can never be sure that

the world will still exist tomorrow, but we usually assume that it does. Alfred

Adler, the founder of Individual Psychology, was profoundly influenced by

Vaihinger's theory of useful fictions, incorporating the idea of psychological

fictions into his personality construct of a fictional final goal.>>

__________________________________



Notice that he even influenced people like Alfred Adler. The kind of

Neo-Freudian psychiatry that appeared in Adler was a major influence on the way

in which early AA's looked at the psychological aspects of the 12-step program.















_________________________________________________________________

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/197222280/direct/01/

Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6483 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
Act as if ... Act as if ... 4/23/2010 3:27:00 AM


PS: One of the corny sayings we hear in AA is, "Fake it to make it." I wonder

where that first appeared?

_________________________________________________________________

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/197222280/direct/01/

We want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6484 Mary Latowski
Re: Act as If Act as If 4/22/2010 8:38:00 AM


Not sure of the origin of the following but my 1st sponsor used to quote it

often:



"Go the the motion and earn the emotion, go the action and earn the

reaction"



Thoughts?

Mary Pat Latowski

South Bend



On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 10:28 AM, jax760 <jax760@yahoo.com> wrote:



>

>

> I recently came across this which tweaked my curiosity.

>

> "The rule for us is perfectly simple. Do not waste time bothering whether

> you "love" thy neighbor; act as if you did. As soon as we do this we find

> one of the great secrets. When you are behaving as if you loved someone, you

> will presently come to love him."

>

> "Some Christian writers use the word charity to describe not only Christian

> love between human beings, but also God's love for man and man's love for

> God. About the second of these two, people are often worried. They are told

> they ought to love God. They can not find any such feeling in themselves.

> The answer is the same as before. Act as if you did. Do not sit trying to

> manufacture feelings. Ask yourself, "If I were sure that I loved God, what

> would I do?' When you have found the answer go and do it.

>

> pp.131-132 Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis

>

> Recognizing the AA fellowship suggestions of "Act as If" and "Fake it till

> you make it" I decided to follow the trail and the joy in finding the

> following from William James

>

> "If you want a quality, act as if you already had it."

>

> Although I find this quote all over the internet I could not source it to a

> particular work of James.

>

> I found this by Norman Vincent Peale

>

> Enthusiasm Makes the Difference p.20

>

> Many years ago the noted psychologist, William James, announced his famous

> "As If" principle. He said "If you want a quality act as if already had it."

> Try the "as if" technique. It is packed with power and it works.

>

> I also came across this Wiki Post

>

> Sam Shoemaker gets the credit for originating the "Act As If" and "Fake It

> Until You Make It" practice that is popular in Alcoholics Anonymous and

> Narcotics Anonymous circles. Note that Shoemaker invented that clever

> persuasion technique to help in the religious conversion of doubtful

> newcomers, not to help anyone to quit drinking or drugging:

>

> "Act As If"

>

> In 1954, the Reverend Samuel M. Shoemaker wrote a story about an

> unfortunate who came to him admitting that he didn't believe in God and

> certainly didn't know how to pray. Shoemaker asked him to "try an

> experiment," as he had nothing to lose. He asked him to get down on his

> knees and say anything at all that came to his mind, addressing his thoughts

> to "The Unknown." He then asked if the man could read just one chapter from

> the Bible, from the book of John. Solely out of respect for Shoemaker, the

> man obliged, but fighting every step of the way. This went on for some time,

> until one day the man actually began praying to God and reading the Bible

> and other works on his own. The man eventually became a spiritual leader

> within his church. Shoemaker believed that this was possible because the man

> "acted as if he had faith" until faith came by accident, or "until there was

> an opening for God to come through."

>

> The slogan "act as if" has been used in AA circles ever since.

>

> A Ghost In The Closet: Is There An Alcoholic Hiding?, Dale Mitchell, Page

> 194.

>

> The author of this post erroneously gives credit for "inventing" the

> "technique" to Sam Shoemaker who could have gotten it from either William

> James or C.S. Lewis. But Sam surely may have introduced this to the

> fellowship.

>

> I also found this by Sam Shoemaker in the October 1955 Grapevine "The

> Spiritual Angle"

>

> "When one has done the best he can with intellectual reasoning, there yet

> comes a time for decision and action. It may be a relatively simple

> decision: really to enter wholly into the experiment. The approach is more

> like science than like philosophy. We do not so much try to reason it out in

> abstract logic; we choose a hypothesis, act as if it were true, and see

> whether it is. If it's not, we can discard it. If it is, we are free to call

> the experiment a success."

>

> Several other things in the CS Lewis book caught my eye as I found many

> similarites with the philosophy of the 12&12. It would appear that Lewis's

> writings were an influence on both Sam Shoemaker and Father John Ford who

> helped Bill with the 12&12. But one example is given below.

>

> 12&12 p.109

>

> From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter

> who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still

> considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love

> God and call Him by name.

>

> CF - Lewis ..."presently come to love him."

>

> If anyone else has any insight on Act as If or Father John Ford's work on

> the 12&12 I'd be quite interested.

>

> God Bless

>

> John B

>

>

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6485 Kimball ROWE
Re: Singleness of purpose Singleness of purpose 4/23/2010 1:36:00 PM


If you consider sources other that literature, then there are the "blue" cards

from GSO that were printed as general guidance for open and closed meetings:



This is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. We are glad you are all here -

especially the newcommers. In keeping with our singleness of purpose and our

Third Tradition which states that "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a

desire to stop drinking," we ask that all who participate confine their

discussion to their problems with alcohol.





This is an closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. In support of A.A.'S

singleness of purpose, attendance at closed meetings is limited to persons who

have a desire to stop drinking. If you think you have a problem with alcohol,

you are welcome to attend this meeting. We ask that when discussing our

problems, we confine ourselves to those problems as they relate to alcoholism.



I don't know when they were first published, but they both refer to "singleness"



----- Original Message -----

From: Glenn Chesnut<mailto:glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

To: AAHistoryLovers group<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 1:54 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Singleness of purpose







From: "Dolores" <dolli@dr-rinecker.de <mailto:dolli@dr-rinecker.de>>

(dolli at dr-rinecker.de)



I have a question, where does the phrase

"Singleness of Purpose" come from? Who used

it first?



Dolores



- - - -



From the moderator:



I would start by looking at the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, the

chapter on Tradition Five, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry

its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."



1st line of 5th paragraph refers to: "this singleness of purpose"



And then the 1st line of the next paragraph refers to: "the wisdom of A.A.'s

single purpose."



And then several paragraphs further along it says: "Thank heaven I came up

with the right answer for that one. It was based foursquare on the single

purpose of A.A."



Also see the chapter on Tradition Eight:



The first paragraph says: "Every time we have tried to professionalize our

Twelfth Step, the result has been exactly the same: Our single purpose has been

defeated."



Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6486 Kimball ROWE
Re: Burning desire Burning desire 4/23/2010 1:50:00 PM


WARNING: OPINION FOLLOWS



I do not know where "burning desire" came from, nor who spoke it first. But I

do believe that "burning desires," as I understand them, have been with us from

the very start. In the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, pg 159-160, it

describes two types of meetings (similar to closed and open meetings). The

description that best fits the open meeting talks about a "time and a place

where new people might bring their problems." This is my understanding of a

"burning desire."



pg 159-160



A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing

much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter

a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly

thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In addition to

these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a week

for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way

of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide

a time and place where new people might bring their problems.







----- Original Message -----

From: Dolores<mailto:dolli@dr-rinecker.de>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:42 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire







Greetings, Thank you all for the the information

that I have received thru History Lovers. I have

a question, where does the phrase "burning desire"

come from? Who used it first?



At the beginning of meetings, one often hears

the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?"



What does this really mean? as I often find it

misused by some members to complain about other

members.



Thanks, Dolores













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6487 Bill Lash
An Alcoholic''s Savior An Alcoholic''s Savior 4/23/2010 9:30:00 PM


An Alcoholic's SaviorNew York Times, 4/20/10



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/20/health/20drunk.html?scp=1&sq=HOWARD%20MARK

EL&st=cse





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6488 Jim
Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. 4/24/2010 8:50:00 PM


How about Tom I. sober since 1957.



Paul Martin of Chicago passed away last August. I believe he had 62 years.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:

>

> One problem with the list for determining the longest sober living person in

AA is that, so far as I can tell, none of those listed at the top of the list

are living.

>

> Of those who are easily identifiable, Barry C. and Ed W. (founders in

Minneapolis and Ed wrote the Little Red Book) are dead for many years (Ed d.

1971?).

>

> Duke P. of Toledo likewise dead, Al M. (Los Angeles founder) also dead, Clancy

U. of Hawaii likewise (Dick B could give you a date), Tex A. likewise (I think

he died fairly recently, if I have the right "Tex").

>

> I can't place Cynthia C. and should be able to if she got sober in March 1940.

>

> Another problem is that when I get down the list to a point between Stan W.

(Jan 6 1946) and Jack T. (Nov 11 1946) I don't find Clyde B. (Jun 20 1946) whom

I know and who is alive.

>

> Nor do I find, at the place where he ought to be, Chet H (Apr 4 1949) whom I

know and who is alive.

>

> Nor do I find Mel B. (Apr 15 1950) whom many of us know and who is certainly

alive -- in fact he's speaking in Wapokoneta soon.

>

> Nor do I find Clancy I. (Oct 31 [I think] 1958) whom most of AA knows and who

is certainly alive.

>

> I think it might repay inquiry to check out all those on the list with dates

before the longest-sober living person we have found, but I'm not entirely

hopeful we'll come up with someone.

>

> And who WAS Cynthia C?

>


0 -1 0 0
6489 John Theede
Re: Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby? When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby? 4/26/2010 2:15:00 PM


Hi:

I was sort of surprised to see that the film shown on the evening of April 25 on

CBS portrayed Ebby as having such a continous contact with Bill all through his

drinking days.  I have read Mel B's book about Ebby, and it mentions nothing

about him being employed at the same brokerage house in NYC as Bill at the same

time as Bill was employed there.   Ernie Kurtz's book about AA (Not God) also

mentions that Ebby and Bill hadn't seen each other for a few years when Ebby

showed up to see him in 1934, stating that Bill hadn't seen Ebby since a Burr

and Burton school renunion.  

 

?????



--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com> wrote:





From: Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com>

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY,

April 25

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 9:13 AM





 







Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.



This time it would be really nice to have a dvd with subtitles in Scandinavian

and other European languages, too.



This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with

Spanish and French subtitles only.



Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in

Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning

rights done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My

Name Is Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least.

 

Keep the good thing going on!



























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6490 martinholmes76@ymail.com
Big Book Disussion group, Barking Saturday night. Big Book Disussion group, Barking Saturday night. 4/25/2010 6:00:00 AM


where did the term "the need for moral psychology" come from in the Dr's

Opinion?


0 -1 0 0
6491 luv2shop
Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... 4/21/2010 4:58:00 PM


Hi everyone!



I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not looking for a

debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and could point me in the

correct direction......





Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the current

chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the district. In the past

these positions have been filled through elections. The rationale is that the

chairman/person would be able to appoint people to these positions that he/she

feels comfortable with and personally knows that they can perform the dutites.

Tradition 2 states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they

do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to "appoint."

What if there are two people equally qualified in every way but the chairperson

chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?



Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I could

find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything in literature

anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would greatly appreciate

hearing from you and pointing me in the right research direction.



Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a treasure

trove of information!!



Yours in the fellowship

Donna W.


0 -1 0 0
6492 Jim Hoffman
Re: Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. Regarding longest sobriety in A.A. 4/27/2010 5:17:00 PM


Here in Largo, Florida we just ( 4-14-10) lost Carl D. D.O.S Dec. 17, 1947

Originally Grand Rapids, MI.

We still have with us Alice S. sober since 1948 - Originally NYC.







----- Original Message -----

From: Jim

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 8:50 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Regarding longest sobriety in A.A.







How about Tom I. sober since 1957.



Paul Martin of Chicago passed away last August. I believe he had 62 years.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:

>

> One problem with the list for determining the longest sober living person in

AA is that, so far as I can tell, none of those listed at the top of the list

are living.

>

> Of those who are easily identifiable, Barry C. and Ed W. (founders in

Minneapolis and Ed wrote the Little Red Book) are dead for many years (Ed d.

1971?).

>

> Duke P. of Toledo likewise dead, Al M. (Los Angeles founder) also dead,

Clancy U. of Hawaii likewise (Dick B could give you a date), Tex A. likewise (I

think he died fairly recently, if I have the right "Tex").

>

> I can't place Cynthia C. and should be able to if she got sober in March

1940.

>

> Another problem is that when I get down the list to a point between Stan W.

(Jan 6 1946) and Jack T. (Nov 11 1946) I don't find Clyde B. (Jun 20 1946) whom

I know and who is alive.

>

> Nor do I find, at the place where he ought to be, Chet H (Apr 4 1949) whom I

know and who is alive.

>

> Nor do I find Mel B. (Apr 15 1950) whom many of us know and who is certainly

alive -- in fact he's speaking in Wapokoneta soon.

>

> Nor do I find Clancy I. (Oct 31 [I think] 1958) whom most of AA knows and

who is certainly alive.

>

> I think it might repay inquiry to check out all those on the list with dates

before the longest-sober living person we have found, but I'm not entirely

hopeful we'll come up with someone.

>

> And who WAS Cynthia C?

>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6493 jax760
Re: Big Book Disussion group, Barking Saturday night. Big Book Disussion group, Barking Saturday night. 4/27/2010 5:38:00 PM


Excerpt from published papers by Silkworth. Notice the use of quotes around the

term moral pyschology. I would suggest we look to William James for Silkworth's

understanding:



"To be converted, to be regenerated, to receive grace, to experience

religion, to gain an assurance, are so many phrases which denote the

process, gradual or sudden, by which a self hitherto divided, and

consciously wrong inferior and unhappy, becomes unified and consciously right

superior and happy, in consequence of its firmer hold uponreligious realities.

This at least is what conversion signifies in general terms, whether or not we

believe that a direct divine operation is needed to bring such a moral change

about.



William James VRE - Lecture IX



Reclamation of the Alcoholic

By William D. Silkworth, M.D., New York, N.Y.

Medical Record, April 21, 1937



MORAL PSYCHOLOGY



We believe that this decision is in the nature of an inspiration. The patient

knows he has reached a lasting conclusion, and experiences a sense of great

relief. These individuals, introverts for the most part, whose interests center

entirely in themselves, once they have made their decision, frequently ask how

they can help others.



Case IV (Hospital No. 1152). - A broker, who had earned as much as $25,000 a

year, and had come, through alcohol, to a position where he was being supported

by his wife, presented himself for treatment carrying with him two books on

philosophy from which he hoped to get a new inspiration: His desire to

discontinue alcohol was intense, and he certainly made every effort within his

own capabilities do to so. Following the course of treatment in which the

alcohol and toxic products were eliminated and his craving counteracted, he took

up moral psychology. At first, he found it difficult to rehabilitate himself

financially, as his old friends had no confidence in his future conduct. Later

he was given an opportunity, and is now a director in a large corporation. He

gives part of his income to help others in his former condition, and he has

gathered about him a group of over fifty men, all free from their former

alcoholism through the application of this method of treatment and "moral

psychology."



To such patients we recommend "moral psychology," and in those of our patients

who have joined or initiated such groups the change has been spectacular.



God Bless



John B







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "martinholmes76@..."

<martinholmes76@...> wrote:

>

> where did the term "the need for moral psychology" come from in the Dr's

Opinion?

>


0 -1 0 0
6494 Jim Robbins
Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... 4/27/2010 2:44:00 PM


You might look at the AA Service Manual, Concept I.





On 4/21/2010 1:58 PM, luv2shop wrote:

>

> Hi everyone!

>

> I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not

> looking for a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and

> could point me in the correct direction......

>

> Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the

> current chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the

> district. In the past these positions have been filled through

> elections. The rationale is that the chairman/person would be able to

> appoint people to these positions that he/she feels comfortable with

> and personally knows that they can perform the dutites. Tradition 2

> states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they

> do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to

> "appoint." What if there are two people equally qualified in every way

> but the chairperson chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?

>

> Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I

> could find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything

> in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would

> greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right

> research direction.

>

> Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a

> treasure trove of information!!

>

> Yours in the fellowship

> Donna W.

>

>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6495 James R
Re: Burning desire Burning desire 4/28/2010 12:12:00 AM


The phrase "burning desire" occurs numerous times in "The Law of Success" by

Napoleon Hill, a protege of Andrew Carnegie, beginning of page 55. The book was

published in 1928.



http://www.archive.org/stream/Law_Of_Success_in_16_Lessons/law-of-success-napole\

on-hill#page/n183/mode/2up/search/burning




The phrase also occurs in the first paragraphs of chapter 1 of "Think and Grow

Rich", also by Hill, published by the Ralston Society in 1938:



'TRULY, "thoughts are things," and powerful things at that, when they are mixed

with definiteness of purpose, persistence, and a BURNING DESIRE for their

translation into riches, or other material objects.



'A little more than thirty years ago, Edwin C. Barnes discovered how true it is

that men really do THINK AND GROW RICH. His discovery did not come about at one

sitting. It came little by little, beginning with a BURNING DESIRE to become a

business associate of the great Edison.' (Emphasis in the original)



Hill was the author of popular "self-help" "how-to-succeed-in-business" books

through the 20s, 30s and into the 40s. Perhaps someone can indicate any evidence

that Bill W. or someone else in early AA read these books. It certainly sounds

like the sort of publication that might have attracted Bill's attention.


0 -1 0 0
6496 Charlie Parker
RE: Burning desire Burning desire 4/27/2010 2:42:00 PM


Another opinion:

I believe that the term "Burning Desire" comes from oral tradition AA and

has filtered from the treatment centers into the Discussion Meeting format.

It is certainly not a requirement to ask for "burning desires" at the end of

a discussion meeting. There is a certain type of personality common in AA

that will always wait till the last minute to share. Where I come from we

say "If you have a burning desire then get with someone after the meeting".

It is also worth pointing out that in the reference posted earlier about our

early days they only set apart ONE NIGHT to let the newcomer talk about his

problems. The rest of the time they were trying to grow in understanding and

effectiveness in carrying this message to the alcoholic who still suffered.

Maybe if these folks today were busier carrying the message they wouldn't

have so many "burning issues". Charlie P. Austin, Tx



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimball ROWE

Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:50 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire



WARNING: OPINION FOLLOWS



I do not know where "burning desire" came from, nor who spoke it first. But

I do believe that "burning desires," as I understand them, have been with us

from the very start. In the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, pg 159-160,

it describes two types of meetings (similar to closed and open meetings).

The description that best fits the open meeting talks about a "time and a

place where new people might bring their problems." This is my

understanding of a "burning desire."



pg 159-160



A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more.

Seeing much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did

not shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and

constantly thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer.

In addition to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart

one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone

interested in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and

sociability, the prime object was to provide a time and place where new

people might bring their problems.







----- Original Message -----

From: Dolores<mailto:dolli@dr-rinecker.de>

To:

AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:42 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Burning desire







Greetings, Thank you all for the the information

that I have received thru History Lovers. I have

a question, where does the phrase "burning desire"

come from? Who used it first?



At the beginning of meetings, one often hears

the phrase used, "does anyone have a burning desire?"



What does this really mean? as I often find it

misused by some members to complain about other

members.



Thanks, Dolores













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







------------------------------------



Yahoo! Groups Links


0 -1 0 0
6497 Arthur S
RE: Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby? When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby? 4/28/2010 11:00:00 PM


It's poetic license and not historical accuracy.







Ebby and Bill did not drink all that much together (save for the notorious

airplane incident from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT).







Ebby (and his family) lived in Albany, NY and Vermont and Bill lived in

Brooklyn, NY some 140 miles or so from Albany.







The same inaccuracy was contained in "My Name Is Bill W."







Ebby (and his family) were actually close to Lois and her family due to their

vacationing and socialization at Emerald Lake each summer over a number of

years.







I read the book "When Love Is Not Enough" and it has many historical

inaccuracies (I was very disappointed). Haven't seen the movie yet.







Cheers



Arthur







From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of John Theede

Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:15 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?











Hi:

I was sort of surprised to see that the film shown on the evening of April 25 on

CBS portrayed Ebby as having such a continous contact with Bill all through his

drinking days. I have read Mel B's book about Ebby, and it mentions nothing

about him being employed at the same brokerage house in NYC as Bill at the same

time as Bill was employed there. Ernie Kurtz's book about AA (Not God) also

mentions that Ebby and Bill hadn't seen each other for a few years when Ebby

showed up to see him in 1934, stating that Bill hadn't seen Ebby since a Burr

and Burton school renunion.



?????



--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com

<mailto:soberholic%40yahoo.com> > wrote:



From: Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com <mailto:soberholic%40yahoo.com> >

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY,

April 25

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com>

Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 9:13 AM







Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.



This time it would be really nice to have a dvd with subtitles in Scandinavian

and other European languages, too.



This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with

Spanish and French subtitles only.



Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in

Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning rights

done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My Name Is

Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least.



Keep the good thing going on!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6498 LES COLE
RE: Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby? When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby? 4/29/2010 9:39:00 PM


Hi Art and others:







You are not alone in using a critical eye regarding the movie, as well as the

book(s) upon which it was based.







There are/were several inaccuracies, and some of you may recall that I did a

specific historical critique of the Lois Book when it was first released in

2005. I had e-mail correspondence with Bill Borchert at that time, as well as

with Stepping Stones folks who gave the book a glowing endorsement in the

FORWARD. Supposedly, the publisher, Hazelden, was going to make historical

corrections when a second printing was done. I'm currently trying to get a copy

of the 2008 printing to see what was changed, if anything. The paperback

version I received today is the same as the original hardback as far as I have

searched thus far.







I don't want to further challenge Bill Borchert personally (although he has now

written THREE major stories about AA history...My Name is Bill, The Lois Wilson

Story, and this movie: When Love Is Not Enough), but I do want to let AA

historians know what I personally know about the Burnhams, and Vermont AA

history...thus my own book, in a few months, which covers such things.







Today I got a paperback, thinking it was a new printing, but it shows the

original 2005 text.







My concern, as a current historian, is that it is very likely that such

distortions will be taken as facts (good history) unless we Do



share our concerns, and with members of AAHL particularly, because we can share

openly as a closed group. Borchert enjoys a lot of special support in getting

out his messages, and I'm sure that many folks will think he is the one to

believe. That makes me rather sad!







During the movie I lost track of just what time-frames were associated with

certain scenes, but I recall that Rogers (Lois' brother) was in the scene where

Ebby was depicted in the kitchen talking with Bill. If that is so, then there

is specific inaccuracy there. We all know that Ebby had that talk in 1934.

Well, in 1932-34 Rog was living with my family continuously in Wallingford,

Vermont. Rog went to live in his family house in Manchester shortly after the

1929 crash. He was working in a small woodworking mill in Vermont. That is

where my father met him and thus we became a "family" together for years. Also,

In 1933 my brother and I visited in Ebby's house (next door to us) with him in

Manchester. His court troubles started at that time. He didn't go to NYC until

just before that 1934 kitchen meeting. He was staying with Rowland Hazard in

Glastenbury, VT just before going to NYC.







Another item which we all might want to consider is: the oft-repeated story

about Ebby being a classmate of Bill at Burr & Burton Seminary in Manchester.

In 2007 I went to talk with the archivist at B&B when I was researching my book,

and learned there is no record of Ebby ever being a student there.(?) That

doesn't mean that he wasn't, just because records are scarce, but I do have my

mother's actual B&B catalog for years 1911-12 listing student names, and Ebby's

name is not there. (My mother was a high school classmate of Bill at Burr and

Burton. She graduated in 1912, but Bill didn't until 1913, after much travail.)







Another bit of book-minutia relates to the oft-mentioned airplane trip which

Ebby and Bill took from Albany to Manchester to appear before the welcoming

committee at the opening of the new airport. Last August while I was again in

Vermont doing research, I found



among the Manchester Journal newspaper archives, the article (with a picture) of

the Inaugural Landing ...and it was made by a well-known pilot from Boston on

July 4, 1928.



These may seem as minutia, but they are examples of how the public may be

impressed by poor history, rather than real history.







GLENN: I hope you will encourage more dialogue on this subject of historical

accuracy.







Les Cole



Colorado Springs, CO











To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

From: arthur.s@live.com

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:00:26 -0500

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?













It’s poetic license and not historical accuracy.



Ebby and Bill did not drink all that much together (save for the notorious

airplane incident from Albany, NY to Manchester, VT).



Ebby (and his family) lived in Albany, NY and Vermont and Bill lived in

Brooklyn, NY some 140 miles or so from Albany.



The same inaccuracy was contained in “My Name Is Bill W.”



Ebby (and his family) were actually close to Lois and her family due to their

vacationing and socialization at Emerald Lake each summer over a number of

years.



I read the book “When Love Is Not Enough” and it has many historical

inaccuracies (I was very disappointed). Haven’t seen the movie yet.



Cheers



Arthur



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of John Theede

Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 1:15 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough - Ebby?



Hi:

I was sort of surprised to see that the film shown on the evening of April 25 on

CBS portrayed Ebby as having such a continous contact with Bill all through his

drinking days. I have read Mel B's book about Ebby, and it mentions nothing

about him being employed at the same brokerage house in NYC as Bill at the same

time as Bill was employed there. Ernie Kurtz's book about AA (Not God) also

mentions that Ebby and Bill hadn't seen each other for a few years when Ebby

showed up to see him in 1934, stating that Bill hadn't seen Ebby since a Burr

and Burton school renunion.



?????



--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com

<mailto:soberholic%40yahoo.com> > wrote:



From: Soberholic <soberholic@yahoo.com <mailto:soberholic%40yahoo.com> >

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY,

April 25

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com>

Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 9:13 AM



Looking forward to see this magnificent story of Lois (and Bill) over here too.



This time it would be really nice to have a dvd with subtitles in Scandinavian

and other European languages, too.



This was not the case with "My Name Is Bill W." - the dvd was available with

Spanish and French subtitles only.



Makes me sad because of the significance of the Fellowship for so many of us in

Europe, too. There was an initiative to get all the paper work concerning rights

done in publishing a dvd with Scandinavian subtitles in the case of "My Name Is

Bill W." but it led nowhere. So far, at least.



Keep the good thing going on!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6499 doclandis@aol.com
minority voice report minority voice report 5/1/2010 11:14:00 AM


I am curious as to where, when and how the use of the "minority voice

report" was installed as a function of AA business meetings.



The question arose from a vote that was recently taken in our District

Meeting regarding an AA function over the Founders Day weekend that

includes

a history skit, and then a spaghetti dinner. Apparently a few members

felt

it was not OK for the District to ask for donations to cover the cost of

the

meal, and when the project was approved by a vote of 5-2, those who did

not

support the project have demanded a "minority voice report" at the

following

months meeting.



While I am pretty well versed in Roberts Rules of Order, I cannot recall

any

such function, other than a motion to reconsider which requires a 2/3

vote.

I cannot find mention of the minority voice report otherwise and was

hoping

someone knew where and when this became a part of AA business meeting

protocol.



thanks,





Mark in the North Georgia Mountains





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6500 bbthumpthump
Original draft of Bill''s Story Original draft of Bill''s Story 5/1/2010 3:47:00 PM


I got this from someone who said he got it from an un-named archivist. Can

anyone verify that this is an early draft of Bill's Story.



THE ORIGINAL "BILL'S STORY"



This is the first printed draft of the Big Book, which was mailed to various

individuals for their comments and also as a fund raising tool. It is unclear at

what time during the writing of the Big Book "Bill's Story" became chapter one.

The language in this draft is in many ways different than the final manuscript.

This illustrates the process of having many individuals add their opinions to

the contents.



[archivist's note: All pages are 8.5" by 14"; marked text (underlined) means

more than one letter was typed over another, or text was crossed out with x's

though still readable]



[handwriting: "Wilson's original story"]



Pag

Page 1.

1. When I was about ten years old my Father and mother

2. agreed to disagree and I went to live with my Grandfather,

3. and Grandmother. He was a retired farmer and lumberman. As I

4. see him in retrospect, he was a very remarkable man After he

5. returned from Civil War he settled in the small Vermont

6. town where I was later to grow up. His original capital con-

7. sisted of a small, unimproved hillside farm, as sweet and

8. willing helpmeet, and enormous determination to succeed in

9. whatever he attempted. He was a man of high native intelli-

10. gence, a voracious reader, though little educated in the

11. school sense of the word. There was plenty of financial

12. sense in his make-up and he was a man of real vision. Under

13. other conditions he might well have become master of an in-

14. dustry or railroad empire.

15. My Grandmother brought into the world three children,

16. one of whom was my Mother. I can still seem to hear her tell-

17. ing of the struggle of those early days. Such matters as

18. cooking for twenty woodchoppers, looking after the diary,

19. making most of the clothes for the family, long winter rides

20. at twenty below zero to fetch my Grandfather home over snow-

21. bound roads, seeing him of long before daylight that he and

22. the choppers might have their access thawed out so that work

23. might begin on the mountaintop at daylight- this is the thought

24. of tradition upon which they nourished me. They finally

25. achieved their competence and retired late in life to enjoy

26. a well earned rest and the respect and affection of their



Page 2.

27. neighbors. They were the sort of people, I see now, who

28. really made America.

29. But I had other ideas - much bigger and better ones

30. so I thought. I was to be of the war generation which dis-

31. ipated the homely virtues, the hard earned savings, the

32. pioneering tradition, and the incredible stamina of your parents

parents

33. Grandfather and mine.

34. I too was ambitious - very ambitious, but very un-

35. disciplined. In spite of everyone's effort to correct that con-

36. dition. I had a genius for evading, postponing or shirking

37. those things which I did not like to do, but when thoroughly

38. interested, everything I had was thrown into the pursuit of

39. my objective. My will to succeed at special undertakings on

40. which my heart were set was very great. There was a persis-

41. tence, a patience, and a dogged obstinacy, that drove me on.

42. My Grandfather used to love to argue with me with the object

43. of convincing me of the impossibility of some venture or

44. another in order to enjoy watching me 'tilt at the windmill'

45. he had erected. One day he said to me - I have just been

46. reading that no one in the world but an Australian can make

47. and throw a boomerang. This spark struck tinder and every-

48. thing and every activity was instantly laid aside until it

49. could be demonstrated that he was mistaken. The woodbox was

50. not filled, no school work was done, nor could I hardly be

51. persuaded to eat or to go to bed. After a month or more of

52. this thing a boomerang was constructed which I threw around



Page 3.

53. the church steeple. On its return trip it went into trans-

54. ports of joy because it all but decapitated my Grandfather

55. who stood near me.

56. I presently left the country school and fared forth

57. into the great world I had read about in books. My first

58. journey took me only five miles to an adjoining town where I

59. commenced to attend a seminary well known in our section of

60. the state. Here competition was much more severe and I was

61. challenged on all sides to do the seemingly impossible. There

62. was the matter of athletics and I was soon burning with the

63. ambition to become a great baseball player. This was pretty

64. discouraging to begin with, as I was tall for my age, quite

65. awkward, and not very fast on my feed, but I literally worked

66. at it while others slept or otherwise amused themselves and

67. in my second year became captain of the team, whereupon my

68. interest began to languish, for by that time someone had told

69. me I had no ear for music, which I have since discovered is

70. almost true. Despite obstacles I managed to appear in a few

71. song recitals whereupon my interest in singing disappeared

72. and I got terribly serious about learning to play the violin.

73. This grew into a real obsession and to the consternation of

74. my teachers, grew in the last year and everyone else it be-

75. came the immediate cause of my failing to graduate. This was

76. my first great catastrophe. By this time I had become Presi-

77. dent of the class which only made matters worse. As in every

78. thing else I had even very good in certain courses of study



Page 4.

79. which took my fancy, and with others just the opposite,

80. indolence and indifference, being the rule, So it was that

81. the legend of infallibility I had built up around myself

82. collapsed.

83. In the ensuing summer I was obliged for the first

84. time to really address myself to the distasteful task of re-

85. pairing my failure. Although my diploma was now in hand, it

86. was by no means clear to my grandparents and parents what

87. they had better next try to do with me. Because of my interest

88. in scientific matters and the liking I had to fussing with

89. gadgets and chemicals, it had been assumed that I was to be

90. an engineer, and my own learnings were towards the electrical

91. branch of the profession. So I went to Boston and took the

92. entrance examination to one of the leading technical schools

93. in this country. For obvious reasons I failed utterly. It

94. was a rather heartbreaking matter for those interested in me

95. and it gave my self-sufficiency another severe deflation.

96. Finally an entrance was effected at an excellent

97. military college where it was hoped I would really be disci-

98. plined. I attended the University for almost three years

99. and would have certainly failed to graduate or come anywhere

100. near qualifying as an engineer, because of my laziness and

101. weakness mathematics. Particularly Calculus, in this

102. subject a great number of formulas have to be learned and

103. the application practiced. I remembered that I absolutely

104. refused to learn any of them or do any of the work whatever



Page 5.

105. until the general principles underlying the subject had

106. been made clear to me. The instructor was very patient,

107. but finally through up his hands in disgust as I began to

108. argue with him and to hint pretty strongly that perhaps he

109. didn't quite understand them himself. So I commenced an in-

110. vestigation of the principles underlying Calculus in the

111. school library and learned something of the conceptions of

112. the great minds of Leibneitz and Newton whose genius had

113. made possible this useful and novel mathematical device.

114. Thus armed I mastered the first problem in the textbook and

115. commenced a fresh controversy with my teacher, who angrily,

116. but quite properly, gave me a zero for the course. Fortunate-

117. ly for my future at the University, I soon enabled to

118. leave the place gracefully, even heroically, for the

119. United States of America had gone to war.

120. Being students of a military academy school

121. the student boy almost to a man bolted for the first

122. officers training camp at Plattsburgh. Though a bit under

123. age, I received a commission a second lieutenant and got

124. myself assigned to the heavy artillery. Of this I was

125. secretly ashamed, for when the excitement of the day had

126. subsided and I lay in my bunk, I had to confess I did not

127. want to be killed. This bothered me terribly this suspicion

128. that I might be coward after all. I could not reconcile

129. it with the truly exalted mood of patriotism and idealism

130. which possessed me when I hadn't time t o think. It was



Page 6.

131. very very damaging to my pride, though most of this damage

132. was repaired later on when I got under fire and discovered

133. I was just like other people, scared to death, but willing

134. to face the music.

135. After graduating from an army artillery school,

136. I was sent to a post which was situated near a famous old

137. town on the New England coast ones famous for its deepxsea

138. whaling, trading and Yankee seagoing tradition. Here I made

139. two decisions. The first one, and the best, to marry. Th

140. second decision was most emphatically the worst I ever mad took up with

took up with

141. I made the acquaintance of John Barleycorn and decided that

142. I liked it him.

143. My wife to be

144. Here I set out upon two paths and little did I realize

145. how much they were diverge. In short I got married

146. and at about the same time, took my first drink and decided

147. that I liked it. But for undying loyalty of my wife

148. and her faith through the years, I should not be alive today.

149. She was a city bred person and represented a background and

150. way of life for which I had secretly longed. Her family

151. spent long summers in our little town. All of them were

152. highly regarded by the natives. This was most complimentary

153. for among the countrymen there existed strong and often un-

154. reasonable prejudices against city folks. For the most

155. part, I felt differently. Most city people I knew had money,

156. assurance, and what then seemed to me great sophistication.



Page 7.

157. and Most of them had family trees. There were servants,

158. fine houses, gay dinners, and all of the other things with

159. which I was wont to associate power and distinction. All

160. of them, quite unconsciously I am sure, could make me feel

161. very inadequate and ill at ease. I began to feel woefully

162. lacking in the matter of poise and polish and worldly know-

163. ledge. Though very proud of the traditions of my own people,

164. I sometimes indulged in the envious wish that I had been

165. born under other circumstances and with some of these advan-

166. tages. Since then immemorial I suppose the country boyshav

167. thought and felt as I did have thought and felt as I did.

168. These feelings of inferiority are I suspect responsible for

169. the enormous determination many of them have felt to go out

170. to the cities in quest of what seemed to them like true

171. success. Though seldom revealed, these were the sentiments

172. that drove me on from this point.

173. The war fever ran high in the city near my

174. post and I soon discovered that young officers were in

175. great demand at the dinner tables of the first citizens of

176. the place. Social differences were layed aside and every-

177. thing was done to make us feel comfortable, happy, and heroic.

178. A great many things conspired to make me feel that I was im-

179. portant. I discovered that I had a somewhat unusual power

180. over men on the drill field and in the barracks. I was about

181. to fight to save the world for democracy. People whose

182. station In life I had envied were receiving me as an equal.



Page 8.

183. My marriage with a girl who represented all of the best

184. things the city had to offer, was close at hand, and last,

185. but not least, I had discovered John Barleycorn, Love, ad-

186. venture, war, applause of the crowd, moments sublime and

187. hilarious with intervals hilarious - I was a part of life

188. at last, and very happy.

189. The warnings of my people, the contempt

190. which I had felt for those who drank, were put aside with

191. surprising alacrity as I discovered what the Bronx cocktail

192. could really do for a fellow. My imagination soared - my

193. tongue loosened at last - wonderful vistas opened on all

194. sides, but best of all my self consciousness - my gaucheries

195. and my ineptitudes disappeared into thin air. I seemed to

196. the life of the party. To the dismay of my bride I used to

197. get pretty drunk when I tried to compete with more ex-

198. perienced drinkers, but I argued, what did it matter, for

199. so did everyone else at sometime before daylight. Then

200. came the day of parting, of a fond leave taking of my brave

In

201. wife. Amid that strange atmosphere which was the mixture

202. of sadness, high purpose, the feeling of elation that pre-

203. cedes an adventure of the first magnitude. Thus many of us

204. sailed for 'over there' and none of us knew if we should re-

205. turn. For a time, loneliness possessed me, but my new

206. friend Barleycorn always took care of that. I had, I thought

207. discovered a missing link in the chain of things that make

208. life worth while.



Page 9.

209. Then w were in dear old England, soon to cross

210. the channel to the great unknown. I stood in Winchester

211. Cathedral the day before crossing hand in hand with head

212. bowed, for something had touched me then I had never felt

213. before. I had been wondering, in a rare moment of sober

214. reflection, what sense there could be to killing and

215. carnage of which I was soon to become an enthusiastic part.

216. Where could the Deity be - could there be such a thing -

217. Where now was the God of the preachers, the thought of which

218. used to make me so uncomfortable when they talked about him.

219. Here I stood on the abyss edge of the abyss into which

220. thousands were falling that very day. A feeling of despair

221. settled down on me - where was He - why did he not come-

222. and suddenly in that moment of darkness, He was there. I

223. felt an all enveloping, comforting , powerful presence.

224. Tears stood in my eyes, and as I looked about, I saw on the

225. faces of others nearby, that they too had glimpsed the great

226. reality. Much moved, I walked out into the Cathedral yard,

227. where I read the following inscription on a tombstone. 'Here

228. lies a Hampshire Grenadier, Who caught his death drinking

229. small good beer - A good soldier is ne'er forgot, whether

A

230. he dieth by musket or by pot.' The squadron of bombers

231. swept overhead in the bright sunlight, and I cried to myself

232. 'Here's to adventure' and the feeling of being in the great

233. presence disappeared, never to return for many years.

234. --



Page 10.



235. I was twenty two, and a grisled veteran of foreign wars.

236. I felt a tremendous assurance about my future, for was not

237. I the only officer of my regiment save one, who had re-

238. ceived a token of appreciation from the men. This quality

239. of leadership, I fancied, would soon place me at the head

240. of some great commercial organization which I would manage

241. with the same constant skill that the pipe organist does

242. his stops and keys.

243. The triumphant home coming was short lived. The

244. best that could be done was to secure a bookkeeping job in

245. the insurance department of the one of the large railroads.

246. I proved to be a wretched and rebellious bookkeeper and could

247. not stand criticism, nor was I much reconciled to my salary,

248. which was only half the pay I had received in the army. When

249. I started to work the railroads were under control of the

250. government. As soon as they were returned my road was re-

251. turned to its stockholders, I was promptly let out because I

252. could not compete with the other clerks in my office. I was

253. so angry and humiliated at this reverse that I nearly became

254. a socialist to register my defiance of the powers that be,

255. which was going pretty far for a Vermonter.

256. To my mortification, my wife went out and got a

257. position which brought in much more than mine had. Being ab-

258. surdly sensitive, I imagined that her relatives an my newly

259. made city acquaintances were snickering a bit at my predica-

260. ment.



Continue...

Page 11.

261. Unwillingly, I had to admit, that I was not

262. really trained to hold even a mediocre position. Though

263. I said little, the old driving, obstinate determination to

264. show my mettle asserted itself. Somehow, I would show these

265. scoffers. To complete my engineering seemed out of the ques-

of

266. tion, partly because/my distaste for mathematics, My only

267. other assets were my war experiences and a huge amount of

268. ill-assorted reading. The study of law suggested itself, and

269. I commenced a three year night course with enthusiasm. Mean-

270. while, employment showed up and I became a criminal investi-

271. gator for a Surety Company, earning almost as much money as

272. my wife, who spiritedly backed the new undertaking. My day-

273. time employment took me about Wall Street and little by

274. little, I became interested in what I saw going on there.

275. I began to wonder why a few seemed to be rich and famous

276. while the rank and file apparently lost money. I began to

277. study economics and business.

278. Somewhat to the dismay of our friends, we moved

279. to very modest quarters where we could save money. When we

280. had accumulated $1,000.00, most of it was placed in utility

281. stocks, which were then cheap and unpopular. In a small way,

282. I began to be successful in speculation. I was intrigued by

283. the romance of business, industrial and financial leaders be-

284. came my heroes. I read every scrap of financial history I

285. could lay hold of. Here I thought was the road to power.

286. Like the boomerang, episode, I could think of nothing else.



Page 12.

287. How little did I see that I was fashioning a weapon that

288. would one day return and cut me to ribbons.

289. As so many of my heroes commenced as lawyers,

290. I persisted in the course, thinking it would prove useful.

291. I also read many success books and did a lot of things that

292. Horatio Algers's boy heroes were supposed to have done.

293. Characteristically enough I nearly failed my

294. law course as I appeared at one of the final examinations

295. too drunk to think or write. My drinking had not become

296. continuous at this time, though occasional embarrassing in-

297. cidents might have suggested that it was getting real hold.

298. Neither my wife or I had much time for social engagements

299. and in any event we soon became unpopular as I always got

300. tight and boasted disagreeably of my plans and my future.

301. She was becoming very much concerned and fre-

302. quently we had long talks about the matter. I waived her ob-

303. jections aside by pointing out that red blooded men almost

304. always drank and that men of genius frequently conceived

305. their vast projects while pleasantly intoxicated, adding for

306. good measure, that the best and most majestic constructions of

307. philosophical thought were probably so derived.

308. By the time my law studies were finished,

309. I was quite sure I did not want to become a lawyer. I know

310. that somehow I was going to be a part of that then alluring

311. maelstrom which people call Wall Street. How to get into

312. business there was the question. When I proposed going out



Page 13.

313. on the road to investigate properties, my broker friends

314. laughed at me. They did not need such a service and pointed

315. out that I had no experience. I reasoned that I was partly qualified

316. /as an engineer and as a lawyer, and that practically speaking

317. I had acquired very valuable experience as a criminal investi-

318. gator. I felt certain that these assets could not be capita-

319. lized. I was sure that people lost money in securities be-

320. cause they did not know enough about managements, properties,

321. markets, and ideas at work in a given situation.

322. Since no one would hire me and remembering that

323. we now had a few thousand dollars, my wife and I conceived

324. the hare-brained scheme of going out and doing some of this

325. work at our own expense, so we each gave up our employment

326. and set off in a motorcycle and side car, which was loaded

327. down with a tent, blankets, change of clothes and three

328. huge volumes of a well known financial reference service.

329. Some of our friends thought a lunacy commission should be ap-

330. pointed and I sometimes think they were right. Our first ex-

331. ploit was fantastic. Among other things, we owned two shares

332. of General Electric, then selling at about $300.00 a share.

333. Everyone thought it was too high, but I stoutly maintained

334. that it would someday sell for five or ten times that figure.

335. So what could be more logical than to proceed to the main of-

336. fice of the company in New York and investigate it. Naive

337. wasn't it? The plan was to interview ohe officials and get

338. employment there if possible. We drew seventy five dollars



Page 14.

339. from our savings as working capital, vowing never to draw

340. another cent. We arrived at Schenectady, I did talk with

341. some of the people of the to company and became wildly en-

342. thusiastic over GE. My attention was drawn to the radio end

343. of the business and by a strange piece of luck, I learned

344. much of what the company thought about its future. I was

345. then able to put a fairly intelligent projection of the

346. coming radio boom on paper, which I sent to one of my brokers

347. in town. To replenish our working capital, my wife and I

348. worked on a farm nearby for two months, she in the kitchen,

349. and I in the haystack. It was the last honest manual work

350. that I did for many years.

351. The cement industry then caught my fancy and we

352. soon found ourselves looking at a property in the Lehigh

353. district of Eastern Pennsylvania. An unusual speculative

354. situation existed which I went to New York and described to

355. one of my broker friend . This time I drew blood in the

356. shape of an option on hundred shares of stock which

357. promptly commenced to soar. Securing a few hundred dollars

358. advance on this deal, we were freed of the necessity of work,

359. and during the coming year following year, we travelled all

360. over the southeast part of the United States, taking in power

361. projects, an aluminum plant, the Florida boom, the Birmingham

362. steel district, Muscle Shoals, and what not. By this time

363. my friends in New York thought it would pay them to really

364. hire me. At last I had a job in Wall Street. Moreover, I



Page 15.

365. had the use of twenty thousand dollars of their money.

366. For some years the fates tossed horseshoes and golden bricks

367. into my lap and I made much more money than was good for me.

368. It was too easy.

take

369. By this time drinking had gotten to be a very

370. important and exhilerating place in my life. What was a

371. few hundred dollars when you considered it in terms of ex-

372. citement and important talk in the gilded palaces of jazz up-

373. town. My natural conservativeness was swept away and I began

374. to play for heavy stakes. Another legend of infalability

375. commenced to grow up around me and I began to have what is

376. called in Wall Street a following which amounted to many

377. paper millions of dollars. I had arrived, so let the scoffers

378. scoff and be damned, but of course, they didn't, and I made

379. a host of fair weather friends. I began to reach for more

380. power attempting to force myself onto the directorates of

381. corporations in which I controlled blocks of stock.

382. By this time, my drinking had assumed

383. serious proportions. The remonstrances of my associates ter-

384. minated in a bitter row, and I became a lone wolf. Though I

385. managed to avoid serious scrapes and partly out of loyalty,

386. extreme drunkenness, I had not become involved with the fair

it

387. sex, there were many unhappy scenes in my apartment, which

388. was a large one, as I had hired two, and had gotten the real

389. estate people to knock out the walls between them.



Page 16.

390. In the spring of 1929 caught the golf fever. This

391. illness was about the worst yet. I had thought golf was

392. pretty tepid sport, but I noticed some of my pretty

393. important friends thought it was a real game and it

394. presented an excuse for drinking by day as well as by

395. night. Moreover some one had casually said, they didn't think

396. I would ver play a good game. This was a spark in a

397. powder magazine, so my wife and I were instantly off to the

398. country she to watch while I caught up with Walter Hagen.

399. Then too it was a fine chance to flaunt my money around

400. the old home town. And to carom lightly around the exclusive

401. course, whose select city membership had inspired so much

402. awe in me as a boy. So Wall Street was lightly tossed

403. aside while I acquired drank vast quantities of gin and

404. acquired the impeccable coat of tan, one sees on the faces

405. of the well to do. The local banker watched me with an

406. amused skepticism as I whirled good fat checks in and out

407. of his bank.

408. IN October 1929 the whirling movement in my bank

409. account ceased abruptly, and I commenced to whirl myself.

410. Then I felt like Stephen Leacock's horseman, it seemed as rapidly

411. though I were galloping/in all directions at once, for the

412. great panic was on. First to Montreal, then to New York, to

413. rally my following in stocks sorely needing support. A few

414. bold spirits rushed into the breach, but it was of no use. I

415. shed my own wings as the moth who gets to near to the candle

416. flame. After one of those days of shrieking inferno on the

417. stock exchange floor with no information available, I lurched

from

418. drunkenly an the hotel bar to an adjoining brokerage office

419. there at about 8 o'clock in the evening I feverishly searched

420. a huge pile of ticker tape and tore of about an inch of it.

421. It bore the inscription P.F.K. 32.. The stock had opened at

422. 52 that morning. I had controlled over one hundred thousand

423. shares of it, and had a sizable block myself. I knew that I

424. was finished, and so were a lot of my friends.

425. I went back into the bar and after a few

426. drinks, my composure returned. People were beginning to jump

427. from every story of that great Tower of Babel. That was high

428.



Page 17.

429. that I was not so weak. I realized that I had been care-

430. less, especially with other peoples money. I had not paid

431. attention to business and I deserved to be hurt. After a few

432. some more whiskey, my confidence returned again, and with it

433. an almost terrifying determination to somehow capitalize this

434. mess and pay everybody off. I reflected that it was just

435. another worthwhile lesson and that there were a lot of

436. reasons why people lost money in Wall Street that I had not

437. thought of before.

438. My wife took it all like the great person she is.

439. I think she rather welcomed it the situation thinking it

440. might bring me to my senses. Next morning, I woke early,

441. shaking badly from excitement and a terrific hangover. A

442. half bottle of Gin quickly took care of that momentary weak-

as

443. ness and I soon as business places were open I called a

444. friend in Montreal and said -"Well Dick, they have nailed my

445. hide to the barn door" - said he "The hell they have, come

we

446. on up". That is all he said and up W went.

447. I shall never forget the kindness and generosity

448. of this friend. Moreover I must still have carried one

449. horseshoe with me, for by the spring of 1930, we were living

450. in our accustomed style and I had a very comfortable credit

451. balance on the very security in which I had taken the

452. heaviest licking, with plenty of champaigne and sound

453. canadian whiskey, I began to feel like Napolean returning

454. Melba. Infallible again. No St Helena for me. Accustomed

455. as they were to the ravages of fire water in Canada in those

456. days, I soon began to outdistance most of my countrymen both

457. as a serious and a frivolous drinker.

458. Then the depression bore down in earnest. and

459.I, having become worse than useless, had to be reluctantly

459. Though I had become manager of one of the departments of my

460. friend's business, my drinking and nonchalant cocksureness,

461. had rendered me worse than useless, so he reluctantly let me

462. go. We were stony broke again, and even our furniture

463. looked like it was gone, for I could not even pay next months

464. rent on our swank apartment.

465. We wonder to this day how we ever got out of

466. Montreal. But we did, and then I had to eat humble pie. We



Page 18.

467. went to live with my Father and Mother-in-law where we

468. happily found never failing help and sympathy. I got a

469. job at what seemed to be a mere pittance of one hundred

470. dollars a week, but a brawl with a taxi driver , who got

471. very badly hurt, put an end to that . Mercifully, no one

472. knew it, but I was not to have steady employment for five

473. years, nor was I to draw a sober breath if I could help it.

474. Great was my humiliation when my poor wife was

475. obliged to go to work in a department store, coming home ex-

476. hausted night after night to find me drunk again. I became

477. a hanger-on at brokerage shops, but was less and less wel-

478. come as my drinking increased. Even then opportunities to

479. make money pursued me, but I passed up the best of them by

480. getting drunk at exactly the wrong time. Liquor had ceased

481. to be a luxury; It had become a necessity. What few

482. dollars I did make were devoted to keeping my credit good at

483. the bars. To keep out of the hands of the police and for

484. reasons of economy, I began to buy bathtub gin, usually two

485. bottles a day, and sometimes three if I did a real workman-

486. like job. This went on endlessly and I presently began to

487. awake real early in the morning shaking violently. Nothing

488. would seem to stop it but a water tumbler full of raw liquor.

489. If I could steal out of the house and get five or six

490. glasses of beer, I could sometimes eat a little breakfast.

491. Curiously enough I still thought I could control the situation

the

492. and there were periods of sobriety which would revive a flag-

493. ging hope of my wife and her parents. But as time wore on

494. matters got worse. My mother-inlaw died and my wife's health

495. became poor, as did that of my Father-in-law. The house in

496. which we lived was taken over by the mortgage holder. Still

497. I persisted and still I fancied that fortune would again shine

498. upon me. As late 1932 I engaged the confidence of a man

499. who had friends with money. In the spring and summer of that

500. year we raised one hundred thousand dollars to buy securities

501. at what proved to be an all time low point in the New York

502. stock exchange. I was to participate generously in the

503. profits, and sensed that a great opportunity was at hand. So

504. ????



Page 19.

505. prodigious bender a few days before the deal was to be

506. closed.

507. In a measure this did bring me to senses.

508. Many times before I had promised my wife that I had stopped

509. forever. I had written her sweet notes and had inscribed

510. the fly leaves of all the bibles in the house with to that

511. effect. Not that the bible meant so much, but after all

512. it was the book you put your hand on when you were sworn in

513. at court. I now see, however, that I had no sustained de-

514. sire to stop drinking until this last debacle. It was only

515. then that I realized it must stop and forever. I had come

516. to fully appreciate that once the first drink was taken,

517. there was no control Why then take this one? That was it-

518. never was alcohol to cross my lips again in any form. There

519. was, I thought, absolute finality in this decision. I had

520. been very wrong, I was utterly miserable and almost ruined.

521. This decision brought a great sense of relief, for I knew

522. that I really wanted to stop. It would not be easy, I was

523. sure of that, for I had begun to sense the power and cunning

524. of my master - John Barleycorn. The old fierce determination

525. to win out settled down on me - nothing, I still thought,

526. could overcome that aroused as it was. Again I dreamed

527. of my wife smiling happily, as I went out to slay the dragon.

528. I would resume my place in the business world and recapture

529. the lost regard of my fiends and associates. It would take

530. a long time, but I could be patient. The picture of myself

531. as a reformed drunkard rising to fresh heights of achive-

532. ment, quite carried me away with happy enthusiasm. My wife

533. caught the spirit for she saw at last that I really meant

534. business.

535. But in a short while I came in drunk. I could

536. give no real explanation for it. The thought of my new re-

537. solve had scarcely occurred to me as I began. There had

538. been no fight - someone had offered me a drink, and I had

539. taken it, casually, remarking to myself that one or two

540. would not harm a man of my capacity. What had become of my

541. giant determination? How about all of that self searching I

542. had done? Why had not the thought of my past failures and

543. my new ambitions come into my mind? What of the intense de-



Page 20-

544. sire to make my wife happy? Why hadn't these things - these

545. powerful incentives arisen in my mind to stay my hand as I

546. reached out to take that first drink? Was I crazy? I hated

547. to think so, but I had to admit that a condition of mind re-

548. sulting in such an appalling lack of perspective came pretty

549. near to being just that.

550. Then things were better for a time. I was

551. constantly on guard. After two or three weeks of sobriety

552. I began to think I was alright. Presently this quiet con-

553. fidence was replaced by cocksureness. I would walk past my

554. old haunts with a feeling of elation - I now fully realized

555. the danger that lurked there. The tide had turned at last -

556. and now I was really through. One afternoon on my way home

557. I walked into a bar room to make a telephone call, suddenly

558. I turned to the bartender and said "Four Irish whiskies -

559. water on the side" - As he poured them out with a surprised

560. look, I can only remember thinking to myself - "I shouldn't

561. be doing this, but here's how to the last time". As I

562. gulped down the fourth one, I beat on the bar with my fist

563. and said, "for God's sake, why have I done this again?" Where

564. had been my realization of only this morning as I had

565. passed this very place, that I was never going to drink again

566. I could give no answer, mortification and the feeling of

567. utter defeat swept over me. The thought that perhaps I

568. could never stop crushed me. Then as the cheering warmth

569. of these first drinks spread over me, I said - "Next time

570. I shall manage better, but while I am about it, I may as

571. well get good and drunk". And I did exactly that.

572. I shall never forget the remorse, the horror

573. the utter hopelessness of the next morning. The courage to

574. rise and do battle was simply not there . Before daylight

575. I had stolen out of the house, my brain raced uncontrollably.

576. There was a terrible feeling of impending calamity.

577. feared even to cross a street, less I collapse and be run

578. over by an early morning truck. Was there no bar open? Ah,

579. yes, there was the all night place which sold beer - though

580. it was before the legal opening hour, I persuaded the man be-

581. hind the food counter that I must have a drink or perhaps die



Page 21.

582. on the spot. Cold as the morning was, I must have drunk

583. a dozen bottles of ale in rapid succession. My writhing

584. nerves were stilled at last and I walked to the next corner

585. and bought a paper. It told me that the stock market had

586. gone to hell again - "What difference did it make anyway,

587. the market would get better, it always did, but I'm in hell

588. to stay - no more rising markets for me. Down for the count-

589. what a blow to one so proud. I might kill myself, but no -

590. not now," These were some of my thoughts - then I felt

591. dazed - I groped in a mental fog - mere liquor would fix

592. that - then two more bottles of cheap gin. Oblivion.

593. The human mind and body is a marvelous

594. mechanism, for mine withstood this sort of thing for yet

595. another two years. There was little money, but I could al-

596. ways drink. Sometimes I stole from my wife's slender purse

597. when the early morning terror of madness was upon me. There

598. were terrible scenes and though not often violent, I would

599. sometimes do such things as to throw a sewing machine, or

600. kick the panels out of every door in the house. There were

601. moments when I swayed weakly before an open window or the

602. medicine chest in which there was poison - and cursed my-

603. self for a weakling. There were flights from the city to

604. the country when my wife could bear with me no longer at

605. home Sometimes there would be several weeks and hope would

606. return, especially for her, as I had not let her know how

607. defeated I really was, but there was always the return to

the

608. conditions still worse. Then came a night I when the physi-

609. cal and mental torture was so hellish that I feared I would

610. take a flying leap through my bedroom window sash and all

611. and somehow managed to drag my mattress down to the kitchen

612. floor which was at the ground level. I had stopped drinking

613. a few hours before and hung grimly to my determination that

614. I could have no more that night if it killed me. That very

615. nearly happened, but I was finally rescued by a doctor who

616. prescribed chloral hydrate, a powerful sedative. This reliev-

617. ed me so much that next day found me drinking apparently

618. without the usual penalty, if I took some sedative occasion-

619. ally. In the early spring of 1934 it became evident to



Page 22.

620. everyone concerned that something had to be done and

621. that very quickly. I was thirty pounds underweight, as I

622. could eat nothing when drinking, which was most of the

623. time. People had begun to fear for my sanity and I fre-

624. quently had the feeling myself that I was becoming deranged.

625. With the help of my brother-in-law, who is a

626. physician I was placed in a well known institution for the

627. bodily and mental rehabilitation of alcoholics. It was

628. thought that if I were thoroughly cleared of alcohol and

629. the brain irritation which accompanies it were reduced, I

630. might have a chance. I went to the place desperatly hoping

631. and expecting to be cured. The so-called bella donna

632. treatment given in that place helped a great deal. My mind

633. cleared and my appetite returned. Alternate periods of

634. hydro-therapy, mild exercise and relaxation did wonders for

635. me. Best of all I found a great friend in the doctor who

636. was head of the staff. He went far beyond his routine duty

637. and I shall always be grateful for those long talks in which

638. explained that when I drank I became physically ill and that

639. this bodily condition was usually accompanied by a mental

640. state such that the defense one should have against alcohol

641. became greatly weakened, though in no way mitigating my

642. early foolishness and selfishness about drink, I was greatly

643. relieved to discover that I had really been ill perhaps for

644. several years. Moreover I felt that the understanding and

645. fine physical start I was getting would assure my recovery,

646. Though some of the inmates of the place who had been there

647. many times seemed to smile at that idea. I noticed however

648. that most of them had no intention of quitting; they merely

649. came there to get reconditioned so that they could start in

650. again. I, on the contrary, desperately wanted to stop and

651. strange to say I still felt that I was a person of much more

652. determination and substance than they, so I left there in

653. high hope and for three or four months the goose hung high.

654. In a small way I began to make some progress in business.

655. Then came the terrible day when I drank again

656. and could not explain why I started. The curve of my de-

657. clining moral and bodily health fell of like a ski jump.

658. After a hectic period of drinking, I found myself again in



[archivist's note: the typewritten manuscript text continues correctly with

page 23, but line numbers 659 - 679 remain unknown ]



Page 23.

680. Everyone became resigned to the certainty that I

681. would have to be confined somewhere ore else stumble

682. along to a miserable end, but there was soon to be

683. proof that indeed it is often darkest before dawn,

684. for this proved to be my last drinking bout, and I am

685. supremely confident that my present happy state is to be

686. for all time.

687. Late one afternoon near the end of that

688. month of November I sat alone in the kitchen of my home.

689. As usual, I was half drunk and enough so that the keen

690. edge of my remorse was blunted. With a certain satis-

691. faction I was thinking that there was enough gin se-

692. creted about the house to keep me fairly comfortable

693. that night and the next day. My wife was at work and I

694. resolved not to be in too bad shape when she got home.

695. My mind reverted to the hidden bottles and at I carefully

696. considered where each one was hidden. These things must

697. be firmly in my mind to escape the early morning tragedy

698. of not being able to find at least a water tumbler full

699. of liquor. Just as I was trying to decide whether to risk

700. concealing one of the full ones within easy reach of my

701. side of the bed, the phone rang.

702. At the other end of the line Over the

703. wire came the voice of an old school friend and drinking

704. companion of boom times. By the time we had exchanged

705. greetings, I sensed that he was sober. This seemed

706. strange, for it was years since anyone could remember his

707. coming to New York in that condition. I had come to think

708. of him as another hopeless devotee of Bacchus. Current

709. rumor had it that he had been committed to a state institu-

710. tion for alcoholic insanity. I wondered if perhaps he had

711. not just escaped. Of course he would come over right away

712. and take dinner with us. A fine idea that, for I then

713. would have an excuse to drink openly with him. Yes, we

714. would try to recapture the spirit of other days and per-

715. haps my wife could be persuaded to join in, which in self

716. defense she sometimes would. I did not even think of the

717. harm I might do him. There was to be a pleasant, and I



Page 24.

718. hoped an exciting interlude in what had become a

round

719. dreary waste of loneliness. Another drink stirred my

720. fancy; this would be an oasis in the dreary waste. That

721. was it - an oasis. Drinkers are like that.

722. The door opened and there he stood, very

723. erect and glowing. His deep voice boomed out cheerily -

724. the cast of his features - his eyes - the freshness of

725. his complexion - this was my friend of schooldays. There

726. was a subtle something or other instantly apparent even to

727. my befuddled perception. Yes - there was certainly some-

728. thing more - he was inexplicably different - what had

729. happened to him?

730. We sat at the table and I pushed a

731. lusty glass of gin flavored with pineapple juice in his

732. direction. I thought if my wife came in, she would be re-

733. lieved to find that we were not taking it straight -

734. "Not now", he said. I was a little crest

735. fallen at this, though I was glad to know that someone

736. could refuse a drink at that moment - I knew I couldn't.

737. "On the wagon?" - I asked. He shook his head and looked

738. at me with an impish grin .

739. "Aren't you going to have anything?"-

740. I ventured presently.

741. "Just as much obliged, but not tonight"

742. I was disappointed, but curious. What had got into the

743. fellow - he wasn't himself.

744. "No, he's not himself - he's somebody

is

745. else - not just that either - he was his old self, plus

746. something more, and maybe minus something". I couldn't put

747. my finger on it - his whole bearing almost shouted that

748. something of great import had taken place.

749. "Come now, what's this all about", I

750. asked. Smilingly, yet seriously, he looked straight at me

751. and said "I've got religion".

752. So that was it. Last summer an alco

753. alcoholic crackpot - this fall, washed in the blood of the

754. Lamb. heavens, that might be even worse. I was thunder-

755. struck, and he, of all people. What on earth could one



Page 25.

756. say to the poor fellow.

757. So I finally blurted out "That's

758. fine", and sat back waiting for a sizzling blast on sal-

759. vation and the relation of the Cross, the Holy Ghost, and

760. the Devil thereto. Yes, he did have that starry edy

761. eyed look, the old boy was on fire all right. Well, bless

762. his heart, let him rant . It was nice that he was sober

763. after all. I could stand it anyway, for there was plenty

764. of gin and I took a little comfort that tomorrow's ration

765. wouldn't have to be used up right then.

766. Old memories of Sunday School - the profit

767. temperance pledge, which I never signed - the sound of the

768. preacher's voice which could be heard on still Sunday

769. mornings way over on the hillside beyond the railroad

770. tracks,- My grandfather's quite scorn of things some

771. church people did to him - his fair minded attitude that

772. I should make up my mind about these things myself - his

spheres

773. convictions that the fears really had their mooxx music -

774. but his denial of the right of preachers to tell him how

775. he should listen - his perfect lack of fear when he men-

776. tioned these things just before his death - these memories

777. surged up out of my childhood as I listened to my friend.

778. My own gorge rose for a moment to an all time high as my

779. anti-preacher - anti-church folk sentiment welled up in-

780. side me. These feelings soon gave way to respectful at-

781. tention as my former drinking companion rattled on.

782. Without knowing it, I stood at the great turning point of

783. my life - I was on the threshold of a fourth dimension

784. of existence that I had doubtfully heard some people des

785. describe and others pretend to have.

786. He went on to lay before me a simple

787. proposal. It was so simple and so little

788. complicated with the theology and dogma

789. I had associated with religion that by

790. degrees I became astonished and delighted.

791. I was astonished because a thing so simple

792. could accomplish the profound result I now

793. beheld in the person of my friend. To say that

794. I was delighted is putting it mildly , for I

795. relized that I could go for his program also.

796. Like all but a few u human beings I had truele

797. believed in the existence of a power greater

798. than myself true athiests are really very scarce.

799. It always seemed to me more difficult and illogical

800. to be an athiest than to believe there is a

801. certain amount of law and order and purpose

802. underlying the universe. The faith of an athiest

803. in his convictions is far more blind then that

804. of the religionist for it leads inevitably to

805. the absurd conclusion that the vast and ever

806. changing cosmos originally grew out of a cipher,

807. and now has arrived at its present state thru

808. a series of haphazard accidents, one of which

809. is man himself. My liking for things scientific

810. had encouraged to look into such matters as

811. a theory of evolution the nature of matter itself

812. as seen thru the eyes of the great chemists

813. physicists and astronomers and I had pondered

814. much on the question of the meaning of life itself.

815. The chemist had shown me that material matter

816. is not all what it appears to be. His studies

817. point to the conclusion that the elements and there

818. meriad combinations are but in the last last

819. analysis nothing but different arrangements

820. of that universal something which they are pleased

821. to call the electron. The physicist and the

822. astronomer had shown me that our universe .

823. moves and evolves according to many precise

824. and well understood laws. They tell me to the

825. last second when the sun will be next eclipsed

826. at the place I am now standing, or the very day

827. several decades from now When Hallyes comet

828. will make its turn about the sun. Much to my

829. x interest I learned from these men that great

830. cosmic accidents occur bringing about conditions

831. which are not exceptions to the law so much

832. as they result in new and unexpected developments

833. which arise logically enough once the so called

834. accident has occurred. It is highly probable for

835. example-that our earth is the only planet in the

836. solar system upon which man could evolve - and it

837. is claimed by some astronomers that the chance

838. that similar planets exist elsewhere in the universe

839. is rather small. There would have to be a vast

840. number of coincidences to bring about the exact

841. conditions of light, warmth, food supply, etc.

842. to support life as we know it here. But I used to

843. ask myself why regard the earth as an accident

844. in a system which evidences in so many respects the

845. greatest law and order' If If all of this law

846. existed then could there be so much law and no

847. intelligence? And if there was an intelligence

848. great enough to materialize and keep a universe in

849. order it must necessarily have the power to create

850. accidents and make exceptions.

851. The evolutionist brought great logic to bear

852. on the proposition that life on this planet began

853. with the lowly omebia , which was a simple cell

854. residing in the oceans of Eons past. Thru countless

855. & strange combinations of logic and accident man

856. and all other kinds of life evolved but man possessed

857. a consciousness of self, a power to reason and to

858. choose , and a small still voice which told him the

859. difference between right and wrong and man became

860. increasingly able to fashion with his hands and

861. with his tools the creations of his own brain .

862. He could give direction and purpose to natural laws

apparently

863. and so he, created new things for himself and of

864. [line number skipped in the typewritten manuscript]

865. and do he apparently created new things for himself an

866. [line number skipped in the typewritten manuscript]

867. out of a tissue composed of his past experience

868. and his new ideas. Therefore man tho' resembling

869. other forms of life in many ways seems to me

870. very different. It was obvious that in a limited

871. fashion he could play at being a God himself .

872. Such was the picture I had of myself and the

873. world in which I lived, that there was a mighty

874. rhythm, intelligence and purpose behind it all

875. despite inconsistencies. I had rather strongly

876. believed.

877. But this was as far as I had ever got toward

878. the realization of God and my personal relationship

879. to Him. My thoughts of God were academic and

880. speculative when I had them, which for some years

881. past had not been often. That God was an intelligence

882. power and love upon which I could absolutely rely

883. as an individual had not seriously occurred to me.

884. Of course I knew in a general way what theologians

885. claimed but I could not see that religious persons

886. as a class demonstrated any more power, love and

887. intelligence than those who claimed no special

888. dispensation from God tho' I grant de that

889. christianity ought to be a wonderful influence

890. I was annoyed, irked and confused by the attitudes

891. they took, the beliefs they held and the things

892. they had done in the name of Christ,. People like

893. myself had been burned and whole population put

894. to fire and sword on the pretext they did not

895. believe as christians did. History taught that

896. christians were not the only offenders in this

897. respect. It seemed to me that on the whole

898. it made little difference whether you were

899. Mohamadem, Catholic, Jew, Protesant or Hotentot.



Continued...



900. You were supposed to look askance at the other

901. fellows approach to God. Nobody could be saved

902. unless they fell in with your ideas. I had a

903. great admiration for Christ as a man, He practiced

904. what he preached and set a marvelous example.

905. It was not hard to agree in Principle with

906. His moral teachings bit like most people, I preferred

907. to live up to some moral standard but not to others.

908. At any rate I thought I understood as well as any

909. one what good morals were and with the exceptions

910. of my drinking I felt superior to most christians

911. I knew. I might be week in some respects but at

912. least I was not hypocritical, So my interest in

913. christianity other than its teaching of moral

914. principles and the good I hoped it did on

915. balance was slight.

916. Sometimes I wished that I had been religiously

917. trained from early childhood that I might have the

918. comfortable assurance about so many things I found

919. it impossible to have any definite convictions

920. upon. The question of the hereafter, the many

921. theological abstractions and seeming contradictions

922. - these things were puzzling and finally annoying

923. for religious people told me I must believe

924. a great many seemingly impossible things to be one

925. [line number skipped]

926. of them. This insistence on their part plus a

927. powerful desire to possess the things of this life

928. while there was yet time had crowded the idea of

929. the personal God more and more out of my mind as the

930. years went by. Neither were my convictions strengthen

931. by my own misfortunes. The great war and its

932. aftermath seemed to more certainly demonstrate the

933. omnipotence of the devil than the loving care of

934. an all powerful God

935. Nevertheless here I was sitting opposite a

936. man who talked about a personal God who told me

937. how hw had found Him, who described to me how I

938. might do the same thing and who convinced me

939. utterly that something had come into his life

940. which had accomplished a miracle. The man was

941. transformed; there was no denying he had been re-

942. born. He was radiant of something which soothed

943. my troubled spirit as tho the fresh clean wind of

944. mountain top blowing thru and thru me I saw and

945. felt and in a great surge of joy I realized

946. that the great presence which had made itself felt

947. to me that war time day in Winchester Cathedral

948. had again returned.

949. As he continued I commenced to see myself as in

950. as in an unearthly mirror. I saw how ridiculous and

951. futile the whole basis of my life had been. Standing in

952. the middle of the stage of my lifes setting I had been

953. feverishly trying to arrange ideas and things and people

954. and even God, to my own liking, to my own ends and to

955. promote what I had thought to be true happiness. It was

956. truly a sudden and breath taking illumination. Then the

957. idea came - " The tragic thing about you is, that you

958. have been playing God." That was it. Playing God. Then

959. the humor of the situation burst upon me, here was I a

960. tiny grain of sand of the infinite shores of Gods great

961. universe and the little grain of sand, had been trying

962. to play God. He really thought he could arrange all of

963. the other little grains about him just to suit himself.

964. And when his little hour was run out, people would

965. weep and say in awed tones-' How wonderful'.

966. So then came the question - If I were no

967. longer to be God than was I to find and perfect

968. the new relationship with my creator - with the Father

969. of Lights who presides over all ? My friend laid down

970. to me the terms and conditions which were simple but

971. not easy, drastic yet broad and acceptable to honest

972. men everywhere, of whatever faith or lack thereof. He did not

973. tell me that these were the only terms - he merely said that

974. they were terms that had worked in his case. They were spiritual

975. principles and rules of practice he thought common to all of the

976. worthwhile religions and philosophies of mankind. He regarded them

977. as stepping stones to a better understanding of our relation to the

978. spirit of the universe and as a practical set of directions setting

979. forth how the spirit could work in and through us that we might

980. become spearheads and more effective agents for the promotion

981. of Gods Will for our lives and for our fellows. The great thing

982. about it all was its simplicity and scope, no really religious

983. persons belief would be interfered with no matter what his training ,

984. For the man on the street who just wondered about such things, it ws

985. Was a providential approach, for with a small beginning of faith

986. and a very large dose of action along spiritual lines he could be

987. sure to demonstrate the Power and Love of God as a practical

988. workable twenty four hour a day design for living.

989. This is what my friend suggested I do. One: Turn my face

990. to God as I understand Him and say to Him with earnestness - complete

991. honesty and abandon- that I henceforth place my life at His

992. disposal and direction forever. TWO: that I do this in the presence

993. of another person, who should be one in whom I have confidence and if

994. I be a member of a religious organization, then with an appropriate

995. member of that body. TWO: Having taken this first step, I should

996. next prepare myself for Gods Company by taking a thorough and ruth-

997. less inventory of my moral defects and derelictions. This I should

998. do without any reference to other people and their real or fancied

999. part in my shortcomings should be rigorously excluded-" Where have I

1000. failed-is the prime question. I was to go over my life from the

1001. beginning and ascertain in the light of my own present understanding

1002. where I had failed as a completely moral person. Above all things in

1003. making this appraisal I must be entirely honest with myself. As an

1004. aid to thoroughness and as something to look at when I got through

1005. I might use pencil and paper. First take the question of honesty.

1006. Where, how and with whom had I ever been dishonest? With respect to

1007. anything. What attitudes and actions did I still have which were not

1008. completely honest with God with myself or with the other fellow. I ws

1009. was warned that no one can say that he is a completely honest

1010. person. That would be superhuman and people aren't that way.

1011. Nor should I be misled by the thought of how honest I am in

1012. some particulars. I was too ruthlessly tear out of the past all

1013. of my dishonesty and list them in writing. Next I was to explore

1014. another area somewhat related to the first and commonly a very

1015. defective one in most people. I was to examine my sex conduct

1016. since infancy and rigorously compare it with what I thought that

1017. conduct should have been. My friend explained to me that peoples

1018. ideas throughout the world on what constitutes perfect sex conduct

1019. vary greatly Consequently, I was not to measure my defects in this

1020. particular by adopting any standard of easy virtue as a measuring

1021. stick, I was merely to ask God to show me the difference between

1022. right and wrong in this regard and ask for help and strength and

1023. honesty in cataloguing my defects according to the true dictates

1024. of my own conscience. Then I might take up the related questions

1025. of greed and selfishness and thoughtlessness. How far and in what

1026. connection had I strayed and was I straying in these particulars?

1027. I was assured I could make a good long list if I got honest enough

1028. and vigorous enough. Then there was the question of real love for

1029. all of my fellows including my family, my friends and my enemies

1030. Had I been completely loving toward all of these at all times

1031. and places. If not, down in the book it must go and of course

1032. everyone could put plenty down along that line.



(Resntments, self-pity, fear, pride.)



1033. my friend pointed out that resentment, self-pity, fear, in-

1034. feriority, pride and egotism, were thingsx attitudes which

1035. distorted ones perspective suc and usefulness to entertain such

1036. sentiments and attitudes was to shut oneself off from God and

1037. people about us. Therefore it would be necessary for me to

1038. examine myself critically in this respect and write down my

1039. conclusions.

1040. Step number three required that I carefully go over my

1041. personal inventory and definitely arrive at the conclusion that

1042. I was now willing to rid myself of all these defects moreover

1043. I was to understand that this would not be accomplished by

1044. [line number skipped]

1045. myself alone, therefore I was to humbly ask God that he take

1046. these handicaps away. To make sure that I had become really

1047. honest in this desire, I should sit down with whatever person

1048. I chose and reveal to him without any reservations whatever

1049. the result of my self appraisal. From this point out I was

1050. to stop living alone in every particular. Thus was I to ridx keep

1051. myself free in the future of those things which shut out

1052. God's power, It was explained that I had been standing in my

1053. own light, my spiritual interior had been like a room darkened

1054. by very dirty windows and this was an undertaking to wipe them

1055. off and keep them kleen. Thus was my housekeeping to be ac-

1056. complished, it would be difficult to be really honest with my-

1057. self and God and perhaps to be completely honest with another

1058. person by telling an other the truth, I could however be ab-

1059. solutely sure that my self searching had been honest and effective.

1060. Moreover I would be taking my first spiritual step towards my

1061. fellows for something I might say could be helpful in leading

1062. the person to whom I talked a better understanding of himself.

1063. In this fashion I would commence to break down the barriers

1064. which my many forms of self will had erected. Warning was

1065. given me that I should select a person who would be in ho way

1066. injured or offended by what I had to say, for I could not expect

1067. to commence my spiritual growth at the w expense of another.

1068. My friend told me that this step was complete, I would surely

1069. feel a tremendous sense of relieve accompanying by the absolute

1070. conviction that I was on the right t road at last.

1071.l0 Step number four demanded that I frankly admit that my

1072.deviations from right thought and action had injured other people

1073.therefore I must set about undoing the damage to the best of my

1074.ability. It would be advisable to make a list of all the

1075.persons I had hurt or with whom I had bad relations. People I

1076.disliked and those who had injured me should have preferred

1077.attention, provided I had done them injury or still entertained

1078.any feeling of resentment towards them . Under no sircumstances

1079.was I to consider their defects or wrong doing , then I was to

1080.approach these people telling them I had commenced a way of life

1081.which required that I be on friendly and helpful terms with every

1082.body; that I recognized I had been at fault in this particular

1083.that I was sorry for what I had done or said and had come to set

1084.matters right insofar as I possibly could. Under no circumstances

1085.was I to engage in argument or controversy. My own wrong doing

1086.was to be admitted and set right and that was all. Assurance was

1087.to be given that I was prepared to go to any length to do the

1088.right thing. Again I was warned that obviously I could not

1089.make amends at the expense of other people, that judgment and

1090.discretion should be used lest others should be hurt. This sort

1091.of situation could be postponed until such conditions became such

1092.that the job could be done without harm to anyone. One could

1093.be contented in the meanwhile by discussing such a matter frankly

1094.with a third party who would not be involved and of course on a

1095.strictly confidential basis. Great was to be taken that one

1096.did not avoid situations difficult or dangerous to oneself on

as possible

1097.such a pretext . The willingness to go the limit a s fast had

1098.to be at all times present. This principle of making amends

1099.was to be continued in the future for only by keeping myself free

1100.of bad relationships with others could I expect to receive the

1101.Power and direction so indespensable to my new and larger useful-

1102.ness . This sort of discipline would helped me to see others as

1103.they really are; to recognize that every one is plagued by various

1104.of self will; that every one is in a sense actually sick with

1105.some form of self; that when men behave badly they are only dis-

1106.playing symptoms of spiritual ill health .

1107. one is not usually angry or critical of another when he

1108. suffers from some grave bodily illness and I would

how

1109. presently see senseless and futile it is to be disturbed

1110. by those burdened by their own wrong thinking . I was to

1111. entertain towards everyone a quite new feeling of tolerance

1112. patience and helpfulness I would recognize more and more

1113. that when I became critical or resentful I must at all

1114. costs realize that such things were very wrong in me

1115. and that in some form otro or other I still had the very

1116. defects of which I complained in others. Much emphasis

1117. was placed on the development of this of mind toward others.

1118. No stone should be left unturned to acheive this end.

1119. The constant practice of this principle frequently ask-

1120. ing God for His help in making it work under trying

112l. circumstances was absolutely imperative . The drunkard

1122. especially had to be most rigorous on this point for one

1125. burst of anger or self pity might so shut him out from his

1124. new found strength that he would drink again and with us

1125. that always means calamity and sometimes death.

1126. This was indeed a program, the thought of some of the

to

1127. things I would have admit about myself to other people

1128. was most distasteful - even appalling. It was only to o

1129. plain that I had been ruined by my own colosal egotism

1130. and selfishness, not only in respect to drinking but with

1131. regard to everything else. Drinking had been a symptom

1132. of these things. Alcohol had submerged my inferiorities

1135. and puffed up my self esteem, body had finally rebelled

1134. and I had some fatally affected , my thinking and action

1135. was woefully distorted thru infection from the mire of

1136. self pity, resentment, fear and remorse in which I now

1137. wallowed . The motive behind a certain amount of generosity,

1138. kindness and the meticulous honesty in some directions

1139. upon which I had prided myself was not perhaps not so

1140. good after all. The motive had been to get personal

1141. satisfaction for myself, perhaps not entirely but on the

1142. whole this was true. I had sought the glow which comes

applause

1143. with thexflaws and Praise rendered me by others.

1144. I began to see how actions good in themselves might avail

1145. little because of wrong motive , I had been like the man

1146. who feels that all is well after he has condesendingly

1147. taken turkeys to the poor at Xmas time . How clear it

1148. suddenly became that all of my thought and action, both

1149. good and bad, had arisen out of a desire to make myself

1150. happy and satisfied. I had been self centered instead of

1151. God centered. It was now easy to understand why the taking

this

1152. of a simple childlike attitude toward God plus a drastic

1153. program of action which would place himx would bring

1154. results. How evident et became that mere faith in God

1155. was not enough. Faith had to be demonstrated by works

1156. and there could be no works or any worth while demonstrations

1157. until I had fitted myself for the undertaking and had be-

1158. come a suitable table agent thru which God might express Himself.

1159. There had to be a tremendous personal housecleaning, a

1160. sweeping away of the debris of past willfullness , a restoring

1161. of broken relationships and a firm resolve to make God's

1162. will my will . I must stop forcing things , I must stop

1163. trying to mold people and situations to my own liking.

1164. Nearly every one is taught that human willpower and ambition

1165. if good ends are sought are desirable attributes. I too

1166. had clung to that conception but I saw that it was not good

1167. enough, nor big enough , nor powerful enough . My own will had

1168. failed in many areas of my live. With respect to

1169. alcohol it had become absolutely inoperative . My ambitions,

1170. which had seemed worthy at some time, had been frustrated.

1171. Even had I been successful , the pursuit of my desires

1172. would have perhaps harmed others add their realization

1173. would have added little or nothing to anyone's peace,

1174. happiness or usefulness. I began to see that the clashing

1175. ambitions and designs of even those who sought what to them

1176. seemed worthy ends , have filled the world with discord and

1177. misery . Perhaps people of this sort created more havouqx

1178. havoc than those confessedly immoral and krucked croocked

1179. I saw even the most useful people die unhappy and defeated.

1180. All because some one else had behaved badly or they had



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6501 lee
Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... 5/1/2010 11:57:00 PM


The District Committee can do whatever the majority agrees upon. I would vote

against such a motion. We have more Traditions than the formal Twelve. AA's

other Traditions are dictated by what's done over time and in concert with what

other similar AA entities do. The long-established method of seating treasurers

and secretaries is by election. I have never heard of it being done any other

way. If the District officers are chosen by one person on the basis of

friendship, personal preference or subjective evaluation, we have completely

bypassed the "loving God" as expressed in the group conscience. It sounds like a

power grab and demagogic to me. I do think that the DCM should have the

authority to appoint Standing Committee Chairpersons as he/she may have a good

sense on these appointments and later would have the choice, if the Chairs

failed in their duties, to replace them. A call to GSO might provide a little

guidance here.

lee



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jim Robbins <jrobbins1123@...> wrote:

>

> You might look at the AA Service Manual, Concept I.

>

>

> On 4/21/2010 1:58 PM, luv2shop wrote:

> >

> > Hi everyone!

> >

> > I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not

> > looking for a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and

> > could point me in the correct direction......

> >

> > Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the

> > current chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the

> > district. In the past these positions have been filled through

> > elections. The rationale is that the chairman/person would be able to

> > appoint people to these positions that he/she feels comfortable with

> > and personally knows that they can perform the dutites. Tradition 2

> > states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they

> > do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to

> > "appoint." What if there are two people equally qualified in every way

> > but the chairperson chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?

> >

> > Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I

> > could find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything

> > in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would

> > greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right

> > research direction.

> >

> > Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a

> > treasure trove of information!!

> >

> > Yours in the fellowship

> > Donna W.

> >

> >

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>


0 -1 0 0
6502 FAMBD
Women & Spirit Women & Spirit 5/2/2010 2:21:00 PM


http://www.womenandspirit.org/index.html



The Women & Spirit Exhibition is touring the US and will be in Cleveland Ohio

from 09-MAY. Part of the exhibition is devoted to Ignatia and her work. The

material has been provided by the Sisters of Charity of St Augustine.

The link above is to the website which gives dates etc of where the exhibition

will be.



Regards



Fiona


0 -1 0 0
6503 Tim DeRan
RE: minority voice report minority voice report 5/2/2010 5:05:00 PM


"I am curious as to where, when and how the use of the "minority voice

report" was installed as a function of AA business meetings....











While I am pretty well versed in Roberts Rules of Order, I cannot recall

any such function, other than a motion to reconsider which requires a 2/3

vote. I cannot find mention of the minority voice report otherwise and was

hoping someone knew where and when this became a part of AA business meeting

protocol."











Look in the Service Manual.







tmd





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6504 Remi K.
Re: minority voice report minority voice report 5/2/2010 5:14:00 PM


Concept V, found in the "secret" AA Service Manual, allows for the

"Right of Appeal", assuring that minority opinion will be heard.



It's testimonial of our co-founder Bill W.'s incredible foresight for

drafting the 12 Concepts... relinquishing the power and authority to the

fellowship.



In service,



Remi





doclandis@aol.com wrote:

>

> I am curious as to where, when and how the use of the "minority voice

> report" was installed as a function of AA business meetings.

>

> The question arose from a vote that was recently taken in our District

> Meeting regarding an AA function over the Founders Day weekend that

> includes

> a history skit, and then a spaghetti dinner. Apparently a few members

> felt

> it was not OK for the District to ask for donations to cover the cost of

> the

> meal, and when the project was approved by a vote of 5-2, those who did

> not

> support the project have demanded a "minority voice report" at the

> following

> months meeting.

>

> While I am pretty well versed in Roberts Rules of Order, I cannot recall

> any

> such function, other than a motion to reconsider which requires a 2/3

> vote.

> I cannot find mention of the minority voice report otherwise and was

> hoping

> someone knew where and when this became a part of AA business meeting

> protocol.

>

> thanks,

>

> Mark in the North Georgia Mountains

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>


0 -1 0 0
6505 Tim DeRan
RE: Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... 5/2/2010 5:02:00 PM


"Is there anything in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past?

I would greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right

research direction."











You're best source of any information on this is the Service Manual. After that

you might look in AA Comes Of Age. But, there is little that I know of that

speaks to this question.







However, I would point out something that I know of from personal experience

both in the organization and structure of AA and outside of it. One of the

reasons positions such as you speak of is to have a diversity of opinions,

experience and training. Having someone appoint people they are comfortable

with is dangerous in that while it might not happen, it could lead to a

committee of yes men who follow along behind the appointing authority. And,

being selected to sit in a position by someone has the possiblity of making the

appointed in debt to the appointer.







In the end that tradition about ultimate authority in the group conscience is

the ultimate authority and if an area, district or whatever decided to follow

down a path they also have to live with the consequences of that choice. Much

thought and deliberation needs to go into making decisions such as these.











tmd





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6506 tuchypalmieri
Bill W acknowlesdges Sam Shoemaker as the 3rd co-founder of AA in 1963 Bill W acknowlesdges Sam Shoemaker as the 3rd co-founder of AA in 1963 5/3/2010 4:27:00 AM


IN MEMORY OF Dr. SAM

By B. W.

On Thursday October 31st 1963 Dr. Sam

Shoemaker, The great Episcopal clergyman

and first friend of A. A. Passed from our sight

and hearing. He was one of those few without whose

ministration A. A. could never have been born in the

first place nor prospered since

From his teaching Dr Bob and I absorbed most of the

principles that were later embodied in the Twelve Steps of

A. A. Our ideas of self –examination, acknowledgement

of character defect s, restitution for harms done, and

working with others came straight from Sam. Therefore

he gave to us the concrete knowledge of what we could

do about our illness; he passed to us spiritual keys by

which so many of us have since been liberated

We who in A. A. early time were privileged to fall under

the spell of his inspiration can never be the same again.

We shall bless Sam's memory forever

Reprinted by permission from the book "And thy

neighbor" by Sam Shoemaker


0 -1 0 0
6507 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: minority voice report minority voice report 5/2/2010 3:50:00 PM


Perhaps it derives from Concept Five: "Throughout our structure, a traditional

'Right of Appeal' ought to prevail, so that minority opinion will be heard and

personal grievances receive careful consideration." Bill elaborates on this in

his essay on the concept.







To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com

From: doclandis@aol.com

Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 15:14:06 -0400

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] minority voice report











I am curious as to where, when and how the use of the "minority voice

report" was installed as a function of AA business meetings.



The question arose from a vote that was recently taken in our District

Meeting regarding an AA function over the Founders Day weekend that

includes

a history skit, and then a spaghetti dinner. Apparently a few members

felt

it was not OK for the District to ask for donations to cover the cost of

the

meal, and when the project was approved by a vote of 5-2, those who did

not

support the project have demanded a "minority voice report" at the

following

months meeting.



While I am pretty well versed in Roberts Rules of Order, I cannot recall

any

such function, other than a motion to reconsider which requires a 2/3

vote.

I cannot find mention of the minority voice report otherwise and was

hoping

someone knew where and when this became a part of AA business meeting

protocol.



thanks,



Mark in the North Georgia Mountains



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











_________________________________________________________________

http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6508 tuchypalmieri
AA Historical books Reprinted and now available a low prices AA Historical books Reprinted and now available a low prices 5/3/2010 4:21:00 AM


Reprinted by Healing-habits.com available @ amazon

Classic republished Gems



"When Man Listens" Cecil Rose Was very Rare

A book of how to Listen to God.

In His preface Cecil Rose writes ?The chapters of this book are an attempt to

set down briefly the simple elements of Christian living. I believe that there

is nothing in them which cannot be found in the New Testament?. What Cecil Rose

wrote was a model for living that went beyond the Christian faith. It became one

of the sources of the 12 Step recovery program. Which has brought many people to

God. It embodies universal principles that serves all of mankind. It is an

excellent guide for ; People of the Christian faith People who are struggling

with their 12 step program. People seeking to deepen their Spiritual/ religious

connection People who are seeking to live a life of honor and integrity in a

world in filled with the opposite It is my honor and pleasure to have Cecil

Roses work reborn through this reprinting so that the masses can have access to

his words and the principles he speaks of.





"Twice Born men" Harold Begbie.

A Famous English Author of the early 1900's writes stories of downtrodden people

who were saved by the works of the Salvation Army. A movement that started in

England and has spread to 116 countries today





"The Genius of Fellowship/ conversion of the Church" Sam Shoemaker

The Man who started it all.

Sam Shoemaker a pioneer in both the Oxford group movement and AA. presents in

his book "The conversion Of The Church" How the Church needs to operate like a

fellowship and that in reality the Fellowship is the Church. Sam mentions in his

Forward that the original church was often called the fellowship. AA is often

referred to as the Fellowship. Sam devotes an entire Chapter to the genius of

fellowship. There he emphasizes the Importance of fellowship in The Church.

"When the Church is alive the desire for fellowship is alive. Sam gives his

definition of real fellowship. "the core and genius of real fellowship as I see

it, is the power to live and work with people upon the basis of absolute love

and honesty"





"Children of the second Birth" Sam Shoemaker

The movement that helped Bill W to recover

An early Sam Shoemaker book originally published in the 1920s, Children of the

Second Birth is filled with stories of men and women who had their lives changed

by turning to God; stories of people who, under the guidance of Sam, utilized

the Oxford Group principles and found miracles. These men and women came from

the depths of desperation and despair to places of happiness and joy. The

touching journeys that they went through gave others the hope that they too

could have a new life filled with peace and serenity. People today can achieve

the same results as the people mentioned in this book. All that is required is

to follow what they did. May these true-life accounts help you or your loved

ones find the Happiness of God.





"Life Changers 13th edition" Harold Begbie

Frank Buchman The man who started the oxford movement

Life Changers is comprised of century-old stories of men who had their lives

changed so profoundly and so dramatically that the original book was reprinted

12 times. Now 100 years later, with its 13th printing, this precious classic is

set to change the lives of many more men and women. The words in this book are

as true today as they were then. Life Changers is also about a man, Frank

Buchman, who was first and foremost a teacher. Buchman could change the lives of

students and scholars in the course of a single conversation; changing those

lives so profoundly and persuasively that the world was in disbelief. Buchman

started a movement that reached the shores of America and lives today in the

form of many 12-step programs. While the original movement was founded on

Christianity, its principles and ideas moved beyond religion and Christianity

into a more generic spiritual movement.



The Common Sense of Drinking

Written by Richard Peabody in the early 1930s, "The Common Sense of Drinking"

describes alcoholism and the behavior of many alcoholics. Divided into four

sections, the book carefully details the condition of alcoholism, along with the

diagnosis of the disease, first steps towards successful treatment, and "the

cure made effective." Republished in 2009 by Tuchy Palmieri as "To Drink or Not

To Drink: The Common Sense of Drinking," this book, although somewhat dated in

parts, still serves as a wonderful resource for anyone interested in studying

the early research on the condition of alcoholism.

Twice Born Ministers



Twice-Born Ministers is a book of 12 personal stories of 12 ministers who were

reborn and re-energized to do the real work of ministry by helping people to

become faithful followers in every sense of the word, specifically being reborn

themselves to Christ and to his calling for them to do his work.

Inspired Children

Olive M. Jones written by the former President of The National Education

Association. It is a book about how the Oxford Group principles work in lives of

children. True stories about real children and how their lives have been

transformed by employing the principles and making God real to children. Sam

Shoemaker in his introduction makes the point that he knew most of the children

and that they were the happiest children he has ever known


0 -1 0 0
6509 Dolores
Re: Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... 5/4/2010 8:14:00 AM


Hi Lee, When I read what you have written. I thought of the General Service

Conference. That the Groups are the most important members and they vote to

send a GSR to the Area meeing. Here on the Continent, Intergroup is the next

group. There we express our voice in AA, by voting for the Chair, Sec. and

Treasurer. And this goes on to our Region and I believe in the States,

Districts, where again the members vote for the Chair, Sec and Treas. The way

you said it was suggested seems like a business and AA is not a Business, we are

a Fellowship. Our inverted Triangle helps us to remember that in service we

are trusted servants. All about this can be read in the "Language of the

Heart", a highly recommended book. In this structure that Bill W. gave us , we

have a voice. Please let me know how things turned our in your group. Yours

in AA, Dolores

----- Original Message -----

From: lee

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 5:57 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted

servants rather than electing....







The District Committee can do whatever the majority agrees upon. I would vote

against such a motion. We have more Traditions than the formal Twelve. AA's

other Traditions are dictated by what's done over time and in concert with what

other similar AA entities do. The long-established method of seating treasurers

and secretaries is by election. I have never heard of it being done any other

way. If the District officers are chosen by one person on the basis of

friendship, personal preference or subjective evaluation, we have completely

bypassed the "loving God" as expressed in the group conscience. It sounds like a

power grab and demagogic to me. I do think that the DCM should have the

authority to appoint Standing Committee Chairpersons as he/she may have a good

sense on these appointments and later would have the choice, if the Chairs

failed in their duties, to replace them. A call to GSO might provide a little

guidance here.

lee



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jim Robbins <jrobbins1123@...> wrote:

>

> You might look at the AA Service Manual, Concept I.

>

>

> On 4/21/2010 1:58 PM, luv2shop wrote:

> >

> > Hi everyone!

> >

> > I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not

> > looking for a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and

> > could point me in the correct direction......

> >

> > Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the

> > current chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the

> > district. In the past these positions have been filled through

> > elections. The rationale is that the chairman/person would be able to

> > appoint people to these positions that he/she feels comfortable with

> > and personally knows that they can perform the dutites. Tradition 2

> > states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they

> > do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to

> > "appoint." What if there are two people equally qualified in every way

> > but the chairperson chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?

> >

> > Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I

> > could find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything

> > in literature anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would

> > greatly appreciate hearing from you and pointing me in the right

> > research direction.

> >

> > Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a

> > treasure trove of information!!

> >

> > Yours in the fellowship

> > Donna W.

> >

> >

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6510 ricktompkins
RE: Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... 5/3/2010 9:37:00 PM


In my experience and from what I've seen around the Fellowship, an

"appointed" service position is many times "Ad Hoc."



Ad Hoc can mean two things: 1) specific length of time or to accomplish a

specific goal, or 2) service in a specific task or position.







The AAWS Board and its service committees, for as long as I can remember,

have had Appointed Committee Members who serve Ad Hoc assisting the work of

the committee. I remember when the Fourth Edition stories were being

reviewed, Trustees Literature Committee had AAs as Appointed Committee

Members to help with its work. An old friend and past Delegate, who has

since passed away, applied for such a position when the Board request was

made, and his first 'assignment' was assisting in editing down the second AA

history book that languished through a few General Service Conference in the

early 1990s and never received approval to publish. The result of the

editing was "Collected Observations of AA" that was (and possibly still is,

in geographic-related sections from the AA Archives at GSO) available to

archivists working within the service structure. His next task was reviewing

submitted Fourth Edition personal stories for further consideration by

Trustees Literature. Then, when it came close to the time for final

Conference approval of the Fourth Edition, his work was done.







As to my Delegate Area and its Appointments, we have a few: Area Archivist

and Area Newsletter Editor come to mind. These are non-rotating service

positions that are loosely reaffirmed every two years, at the beginning of

the year following an Area election year. Our current Newsletter Editor has

been serving for over 10 years.



The Area Chairperson appoints these trusted servants and the Assembly

ratifies the selections by acclamation.







Hope this helps with your question; Ad Hoc is one effective way to look at

appointments. Example 1, I served my Area twice as Historian, once to

complete its history and a second time to update it, both times before the

Assembly's approval to publish it. Example 2, I was later appointed Area

Archivist and served for 5 years before my election to the Area Secretary

Committee---to establish an archives repository and manage the archival

items.







Rick, Illinois































<SNIP>

In the end that tradition about ultimate authority in the group conscience

is the ultimate authority and if an area, district or whatever decided to

follow down a path they also have to live with the consequences of that

choice. Much thought and deliberation needs to go into making decisions such

as these.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6511 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants... Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants... 5/5/2010 4:27:00 AM


Benign anarchy and democracy is as Bill W said. He also said, They do not

govern.







In a message dated 5/5/2010 12:53:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

dolli@dr-rinecker.de writes:



Our inverted Triangle helps us to remember that in service we are trusted

servants.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6512 gvanrobinson
Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... 5/5/2010 11:37:00 AM


Donna,



Our Area used to allow the Area Chairperson to appoint the Area Secretary. A

while back it was the decision of the Area Fellowship that the Secretary should

be an elected position. It was decided that this change would better serve the

Area by allowing the Ultimate Authority to decide who would be allowed to serve.



Now, that is not saying that this is the way everyone should do things, which

leads me to my suggestion of literature one might consider in instances like

this.



It begins with Tradition 4 - Each group should be autonomous except in matters

affecting other groups or AA as a whole. - Any response from GSO will most

likely refer you to this Tradition. Each Group, Intergroup, District, or Area

is free do conduct their business however they wish provided that, in doing so,

they don't interfere with any other AA body's ability to do the same.

Translation: Your District can absolutely allow your chair to appoint other

positions if they want to. If, at some point, they decide it doesn't work, they

can change it back.



The guiding principles for this can be found in the 12 Concepts, a.k.a. "the

best kept secret in AA." In particular Concept 2 which speaks to the delegation

of authority, and Concept 10 which speaks to service authority. More

importantly however, I would refer you to Concept 9 which speaks to the

importance of good service leaders and "sound and appropriate methods of

choosing them ..."



The bottom line is this: I doubt that you will ever find any definitive answer

as to how your district should conduct your business, but, I am convinced that,

by reviewing the guiding principles that our founders labored to leave us as

their legacy, one can find Good Orderly Direction.



Good luck.



GVR





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "luv2shop" <justme489@...> wrote:

>

> Hi everyone!

>

> I have a question but first here is the scenario. I am truly not looking for

a debate, just if anyone has any experience with this and could point me in the

correct direction......

>

>

> Our District is wanting to change our service structure to where the current

chairman "appoints" the treasurer and secretary of the district. In the past

these positions have been filled through elections. The rationale is that the

chairman/person would be able to appoint people to these positions that he/she

feels comfortable with and personally knows that they can perform the dutites.

Tradition 2 states, in part, that "....our leaders are but trusted servants they

do not govern..." One (of the many) definitions of govern it to "appoint."

What if there are two people equally qualified in every way but the chairperson

chose his/her buddy because they are comfortable?

>

> Now the question. After reading the scenario, does anyone know where I could

find out more about this and educate myself? Is there anything in literature

anywhere that has dealt with this in the past? I would greatly appreciate

hearing from you and pointing me in the right research direction.

>

> Thank you for everything that is done in this group! It is such a treasure

trove of information!!

>

> Yours in the fellowship

> Donna W.

>


0 -1 0 0
6513 J. Lobdell
RE: Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... Question regarding Area appointing trusted servants rather than electing.... 5/5/2010 5:57:00 AM


When my wife was appointed as a Trustees' Committee Member in 2000, she

submitted the same kind of resume (cv) required for application to be considered

as a Director or Trustee, through the Delegate from her Area, was interviewed by

the Secretary and the current Trustee Chairman of the Committee, then her name

was submitted to the Conference (with the names of nominated Trustees and

Directors) and approved. In the appointment of the Area Archivist, I believe

the local Area (59) -- like Rick's Area --requires at least Area Committee (if

not Assembly) approval, so that, if if the Archivist is appointed, it's the Area

Committee that does the appointing. The Appointed Committee Members of

Trustees' Committees serve regular four-year terms, or at least that was what my

wife served -- not ad-hoc for a specific task. Also, Area 59 has ad-hoc

Committees, but those AAs serving as Chairs, and the members of the Committees,

are appointed for a term certain of two years. In the most recent panel, the

Committees (Literature, Corrections, Treatment, CPC, PI, etc.) elected their own

chairmen/ chairwomen, from among their members.



> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> From: ricktompkins@comcast.net

> Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 20:37:26 -0500

> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Question regarding Area appointing trusted

servants rather than electing....

>

> In my experience and from what I've seen around the Fellowship, an

> "appointed" service position is many times "Ad Hoc."

>

> Ad Hoc can mean two things: 1) specific length of time or to accomplish a

> specific goal, or 2) service in a specific task or position.

>

>

>

> The AAWS Board and its service committees, for as long as I can remember,

> have had Appointed Committee Members who serve Ad Hoc assisting the work of

> the committee. I remember when the Fourth Edition stories were being

> reviewed, Trustees Literature Committee had AAs as Appointed Committee

> Members to help with its work. An old friend and past Delegate, who has

> since passed away, applied for such a position when the Board request was

> made, and his first 'assignment' was assisting in editing down the second AA

> history book that languished through a few General Service Conference in the

> early 1990s and never received approval to publish. The result of the

> editing was "Collected Observations of AA" that was (and possibly still is,

> in geographic-related sections from the AA Archives at GSO) available to

> archivists working within the service structure. His next task was reviewing

> submitted Fourth Edition personal stories for further consideration by

> Trustees Literature. Then, when it came close to the time for final

> Conference approval of the Fourth Edition, his work was done.

>

>

>

> As to my Delegate Area and its Appointments, we have a few: Area Archivist

> and Area Newsletter Editor come to mind. These are non-rotating service

> positions that are loosely reaffirmed every two years, at the beginning of

> the year following an Area election year. Our current Newsletter Editor has

> been serving for over 10 years.

>

> The Area Chairperson appoints these trusted servants and the Assembly

> ratifies the selections by acclamation.

>

>

>

> Hope this helps with your question; Ad Hoc is one effective way to look at

> appointments. Example 1, I served my Area twice as Historian, once to

> complete its history and a second time to update it, both times before the

> Assembly's approval to publish it. Example 2, I was later appointed Area

> Archivist and served for 5 years before my election to the Area Secretary

> Committee---to establish an archives repository and manage the archival

> items.

>

>

>

> Rick, Illinois

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> <SNIP>

> In the end that tradition about ultimate authority in the group conscience

> is the ultimate authority and if an area, district or whatever decided to

> follow down a path they also have to live with the consequences of that

> choice. Much thought and deliberation needs to go into making decisions such

> as these.

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>



_________________________________________________________________

The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with

Hotmail.

http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326:\

:T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
6514 diazeztone
Judge sentences man to get AA sponsor Judge sentences man to get AA sponsor 5/9/2010 4:33:00 PM


Judge sentences a man to "obtain an Alcoholics

Anonymous sponsor." Has any one heard of this

before?



St Cloud, Minnesota, News



Dwight King Alexander, 34, St. Cloud; terroristic threats, Nov. 21, 2009;

imposition of sentence stayed on five years probation and 58 days in jail, fined

$50 plus surcharges, ordered to complete a chemical dependency evaluation and

domestic abuse program and follow recommendations, abstain from alcohol and

non-prescribed mood-altering substances, undergo random urinalysis, provide a

DNA sample, have no same or similar violations during probation, remain law

abiding, have no contact with the victim, sign releases, attend weekly

Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, obtain an Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor and

participate in domestic violence court and comply with requirements. Judge:

Grunke.



LD Pierce

aabibliography.com


0 -1 0 0
6515 martinholmes76@ymail.com
Why was Fitz''s alcoholic problem so complex? Why was Fitz''s alcoholic problem so complex? 5/10/2010 4:17:00 AM


In the Big Book, in the Doctor's Opinion (p. xxxi) it says "this man's alcoholic

problem was so complex". Why was his problem so complex?



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From Glenn C., the moderator: in trying to evaluate why Dr. Silkworth might have

made this comment about Fitz Mayo, it would be well to run through some

background.



Dr. Silkworth's entire statement on the matter is found in the Big Book 4th ed.,

on pp. xxxi-xxxii:



<<When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another

case brought in by a physician prominent in New York.

The patient had made his own diagnosis and deciding his

situation hopeless, had hidden in a deserted barn deter-

mined to die. He was rescued by a searching party, and,

in desperate condition, brought to me. Following his

physical rehabilitation, he had a talk with me in which he

frankly stated he thought the treatment a waste of effort,

unless I could assure him, which no one ever had, that in

the future he would have the "will power" to resist the

impulse to drink.



His alcoholic problem was so complex and his depres-

sion so great, that we felt his only hope would be through

what we then called "moral psychology", and we doubted

if even that would have any effect.



However, he did become "sold" on the ideas contained

in this book. He has not had a drink for a great

many years [Fitz got sober in October 1935]. I see

him now and then and he is as fine a specimen of

manhood as one could wish to meet.>>



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The man in this story who had hidden in a barn was Fitz Mayo. His story in the

BB is "Our Southern Friend."



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From silkworth.net:



"Our Southern Friend"



John H. F. (Fitz) M., Cumberstone, Maryland



(p. 226 in 1st edition, p. 460 in 2nd edition, p. 497 in 3rd edition, and p. 208

in 4th edition. In the first three editions it appeared under the section "They

Nearly Lost All.")



They Lost Nearly All



"Pioneer A.A., minister's son, and southern farmer, he asked, 'Who am I to say

there is no God?'"



Fitz' date of sobriety was October 1935. He was Bill's second or third success

at 12th stepping after he returned from Akron in 1935. The first was Hank P.

("The Unbeliever" in the 1st edition), and the second probably William R., "A

Business Man's Recovery" in the 1st edition.)



Fitz has been described as a blue blood from Maryland. Alcoholism may have run

in his mother's side of the family. Fitz was, reportedly, quite handsome, with

chiseled features. He had the quiet, easy charm of the landed gentry. Indeed, he

was quite the Southern gentleman. Lois W. said Fitz was an impractical, lovable

dreamer. His intellectual, scholarly qualities gave him common ground with Bill

who - like Fitz - was also a dreamer.



He was the son of an Episcopalian minister. Alcoholism may have run in his

mother's side of the family. They never drank at home, but when Fitz took his

first drink when at college, he discovered that it removed his fear and sense of

inferiority.



He attempted to enlist during World War I, but could not pass the physical. This

added to his sense of inferiority.



He had a good job with a large corporation until the Great Depression. Later he

worked at various jobs: traveling salesman, teacher and farmer. But he couldn't

stop drinking. He was drunk when his mother-in-law died, when his own mother

died, when his child was born.



His wife had heard of Towns Hospital in New York and urged him to go there.

Finally he agreed.



Another patient told him about a group of men who were worse than he was but who

didn't drink any more. This patient had tried the program but had slipped. He

knew it was because he hadn't been honest. He asked Fitz if he believed in God.

Fitz did not. Later, in his bed, the thought came: "Can all the worth while

people I have known be wrong about God?" He took a look at his own history and

suddenly a thought like a Voice came: "Who are you to say there is no God?"



Bill & Lois W. and Fitz M. and his wife became devoted friends, and visited one

another often. Fitz frequently came up for the Tuesday night meeting at the

Wilson home in Brooklyn. It was while Bill and Lois were visiting Fitz in

Maryland in the summer of 1936 that Bill C., committed suicide. (See page 16 of

the Big Book.) And Fitz, as well as Hank P. often joined Bill and Lois at Oxford

Group house parties before A.A. broke away from the Oxford Group.



During the writing of the Big Book, Fitz insisted that the book should express

Christian doctrines and use Biblical terms and expressions. Hank and Jim B.

opposed him. The compromise was "God as we understood Him."



When the group was trying to decide on a name for the book, Fitz, because of his

close proximity to Washington, was asked to go to the Library of Congress and

find out how many books were called "The Way Out." His sister, Agnes, came to

the their assistance when the printer refused to release the book he was holding

- the first printing of Alcoholics Anonymous. Agnes loaned A.A. $1,000, the

equivalent of nearly $12,000 today.



Fitz later started A.A. in Washington. Florence R. ("A Feminine Victory" in the

1st edition) joined him in Washington. It was Fitz who was called on to identify

her body when she died. He sent one of his early sponsees (who never recovered)

to see his old friend Jim B. in Washington ("The Vicious Cycle") when Jim was

just coming off a binge.



In World War II, Fitz at last was able to join the Army, where he was found to

be suffering from cancer. He died October 4, 1943, eight years after he stopped

drinking. Fitz is buried on the grounds of Christ Episcopal Church at

Owensville, MD, where his father had once been pastor. He is buried just a few

feet from Jim B.



- - - -



ANY IDEAS AS TO WHY DR. SILKWORTH WOULD HAVE REGARDED



FITZ' PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS AS "SO COMPLEX"?


0 -1 0 0
6516 martinholmes76@ymail.com
The AA version of moral psychology The AA version of moral psychology 5/10/2010 4:18:00 AM


What was their version of moral psychology mentioned in the Big Book in the

Doctor's opinion?



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From Glenn C., the moderator



(BB 4th ed. p. xxvii) Dr. Silkworth had been unable to

devise a method of "moral psychology" which would help

alcoholics, until Bill Wilson came to him as a patient, and

devised a program of recovery which Dr. Silkworth

allowed him to try out on other patients, a program

involving a kind of "moral psychology" which repeatedly

brought long term sobriety to apparently hopeless cases:



<<We doctors have realized for a long time that some form

of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics,

but its application presented difficulties beyond our concep-

tion. What with our ultra-modern standards, our scientific

approach to everything, we are perhaps not well equipped

to apply the powers of good that lie outside our synthetic

knowledge.



Many years ago one of the leading contributors to this

book [Bill W.] came under our care in this hospital and

while here he acquired some ideas which he put into practical

application at once.>>



(BB 4th ed., pp. xxxi-xxxii) The "moral psychology"

developed in Bill Wilson's program of recovery was

even able to get Fitz Mayo sober in October 1935, even

though Dr. Silkworth and the other staff did not believe it

could work on someone with all of Fitz's complex problems:



<<His alcoholic problem was so complex and his depres-

sion so great, that we felt his only hope would be through

what we then called "moral psychology", and we doubted

if even that would have any effect.