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6185 lester gother
RE: Recovery rates Recovery rates 12/28/2009 5:00:00 PM

Hi All,

I have in my hands a survey of the Jersey Group dated January 1, 1940. This
is the mother group of AA in New Jersey which just last month celebrated 70
years. I will copy the results as written on the survey.



Total # contacted: 41

Total who have never taken a drink since joining: 19 > TOTAL SUCCESSFUL:
26

Number who have had only one slip since joining: 8

Number jailing thus far but still members: 6

Number jailed and dropped out: 6

Percentage of complete success: 46.3%

Percentage of successes/ complete or just one slip: 63.4%

Percentage of failures: 36.6%

Total sober time achieved by Jersey Group as a whole: 21years

Growth - 400% from 10 to 40 in last 9 months

Membership spread over 23 towns



I have placed here as failures 5 men who attended only 3 or 4 meetings at
most.

These men I feel, tho exposed to our idea did not take the treatment.

If we include only those who really tried the program for 3 months or more
our percentage of successes rises to 72.2%



13 members have now been dry for a period ranging from 6 months to 3 years.



Some of the members of the group include:



Henry P. (The Unbeliever)

Henry B. (A Different Slant) (Fred on pg. 39 in the BB)

Morgan R. (Spoke on the Gabriel Heatter radio broadcast "We the People")



I hope this sheds some light on the subject that has been questioned since
the second edition was printed in 1955. By the way I was a skeptic until I
did a lot of digging.



LOVE AND SERVICE

Lester Gother

Archivist

Area 44

Northern New Jersey

"HOME OF THE BIG BOOK"

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6186 jax760
Re: Recovery rates Recovery rates 12/30/2009 2:37:00 PM

I had done some research related to Bill's success rate assertion found in the
foreword to the second edition p.xx that may be of interest to you.

The first instance I had found of Bill quoting success rates was in a letter to
a New York Banker in July of 1938.

"Out of the some 200 cases with which we have dealt there seems to be
approximately 100 recoveries. So far as any of my doctor friends know, nothing
like this has ever happened in the world before with alcoholics commonly
regarded as incurable by the medical profession . . . "Letter from Bill Wilson
to Mr. Charles Parcelles, July 1, 1938.

Shortly after Bill repeats the claim in a letter to Dr. Cabot of Massachusetts
General Hospital.

"We have never developed any accurate statistical information but I should say
we have dealt with about 200 cases in all, almost half of whom seem to have
recovered." Letter from Bill Wilson to Dr. Richard Cabot – July 1938

The first time Bill publicly disclosed AA success rates was at the Rockefeller
Dinner in 1940.

"To continue with what had happened out in Akron. By the time the book was
published last April there were about one hundred of us, the majority of them in
the West. Although we have no exact figures, in counting heads recently, we
think it fair to state that of all the people who have been seriously interested
in this thing since the beginning, one-half have had no relapse at all. About
25% are having some trouble, or have had some trouble, but in our judgment will
recover. The other 25% we do not know about." Excerpts of the Rockefeller Dinner
Feb 8, 1940

There actually is proof (both pre and post release) of Bill's claims.
Note the significance of the part of the statement given at the dinner "...in
counting heads recently..."

*On January 1, 1940 the New Jersey Group of AA (A.A. Group #4) conducted a
survey of its membership which was used in part to provide A.A. success rates of
the for the Rockefeller dinner. The survey lists 41 names, addresses, and the
number of slips for the members, many of them well known pioneers. After the
list of names the following summary is given.

Total members contacted – 41
Total members who have never taken a drink since joining – 19
Number who have had only one slip since joining – 9
Total successful 26

Total failing thus far but still members – 6
Number failed and dropped out – 6
Number of complete successes – 46.3%
Number of successes complete or just one slip – 63.4%
Percentage of failures – 36.6%

Total sober time achieved by Jersey Group as a whole 21 years
Growth 400% - 10 to 40 in the last 9 months.

Membership spread over 23 towns.

I have placed here as failures 5 men who attended only 3 or 4 meetings at most.
These men I feel, tho (sic) exposed to our idea did not take the treatment. If
we include only those who really tried the program for 3 months or more our
percentage of successes rises to 72.2% - End of Summary.

Its clear to this writer that the NJ Group Survey was taken in preperation for
Bill's talk at the dinner. He also mentions statistics from the Chicago group
later in his Rockefeller talk. Interestingly enough the 75% success rate often
attributed to early AA in Akron would appear to be somewhat limiting based on
the NJ survey. The groups in both South Orange and Chicago (and perhaps the rest
of the fellowship) were at that time achieving similar success rates. Strong
program and one to one sponsorship of those "that really tried" were vitally
important to achieving the early success rates for "real alcoholics." (Big Book
p.21)

As Glenn points out the report issued in January of 2008 (AA Recovery Outcomes)
is most informative. Of importance to my research was the note found in the
second edition of the Big Book on an unnumbered page @168 preceding the personal
stories. If you do the math Bill's recovery rate assertions are again validated.

"When first published in 1939, this book contained twenty-nine
stories about alcoholics.
To ensure maximum identification with the greatest number
of readers, the new second edition (1955) carries a consider-
ibly enlarged story section, as above described.
Concerning the original twenty-nine case histories, it is a
deep satisfaction to record, as of 1955, that twenty-two have
apparently made a full recovery from their alcoholism. Of these
fifteen have remained completely sober for an average of sev-
eral years each, according to our best knowledge and belief."

*Excerpts from Chapter V of the manuscript The Golden Road of Devotion; " The
Rockefeller Connection"

0 -1 0 0
6187 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more early examples Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more early examples 1/1/2010 6:50:00 PM

EARLY NEW JERSEY:

This is in response to Lester Gother's posting of a survey of the New Jersey
Group dated January 1, 1940 which deals with a small group of only 41 people,
but nevertheless seems to show an outstanding success rate when we look at the
survey's initial claims, even though the mathematics seem to be a bit off:

Total members who have never taken a drink since joining -- 19
Number who have had only one slip since joining-- 9
Total successful 26
 
How do we get 26 out of 19 and 9? I begin to have less confidence in a set of
statistics when the mathematical calculations shown in the document don't work.

But anyway, it is only when we read all the way down to the end of the survey
that we realize that 30 of these 41 people in the database have only been
attending AA meetings for nine months or less -- many of them much less.

So the numbers in the database are too few, and the period of time over which
they have been tracked is FAR TOO SHORT in three quarters of these cases to make
any strong claims about long term success rates.

- - - -

People who defend the notion of extraordinarily high success rates in early AA
like to cite the New Jersey document nevertheless, because that particular set
of data fits their theories.  This is called cherry picking however, because
they are neglecting to look at other sets of data from that early period which
do not at all support their theories.

- - - -

EARLY MINNEAPOLIS:

So let us look instead at the figures for the early Minneapolis group, which are
much more carefully assembled, and cover a much longer period. These are
contained in an article from the Grapevine which was reprinted in Wally P., Back
to Basics Instructors Manual, rev. ed. April 2002.

You see, the problem is that people in early A.A. often kept their statistics in
forms totally different from what is customarily used today. We have what appear
to be some fairly careful statistics kept in Minneapolis, for example, from 1943
to 1945, given in this article in the Grapevine. But as we shall see, even
though we can make a few useful observations, these figures are in fact very
difficult to translate into a modern format.
 
The headline says they were achieving a 75% success rate, which is in fact
incorrect. They liked the figures "50%" and "75%" so much that they tended to
adjust numbers in that direction whenever possible. This was not necessarily to
make themselves look good. The actual figures given in the article below the
headline show a 77% to 83% overall success rate, which in fact is actually
higher.
 
The problem is that the way they have manipulated the figures to make them come
out that way is entirely different from the way in which success and retention
rate figures are calculated in all the modern data.
 
The way we usually give success rate figures in modern studies of AA, is to take
a large group of people who have been encouraged to attend a few AA meetings
(many of them perhaps court ordered, and others trucked in rather unwillingly
from treatment centers run by psychiatrists who are hostile to AA and let their
patients know how silly they think AA is). Now if 77% to 83% of these people
were to decide that they actually WANTED to quit drinking, and threw themselves
wholeheartedly into AA, and were found to still be clean and sober three years
later, and even five years later, this would be quite an extraordinary
accomplishment indeed.
 
And there are people today who would want us to believe that there was some
version of early AA which can take one hundred court appointed people who had
been convicted of drunk driving, and can turn seventy-five of them into sober
and dedicated AA members, "just like in the good old days."
 
But let's look a little harder at the Minneapolis statistics. Large numbers of
the people who were in their early months were going back out and getting drunk
again, and only a very small percentage indeed of these people ever came back
and tried to get sober again. And they were excluding from the count all those
who had not completed their first 90 days successfully (where the number who
quit and got drunk again was presumably very high indeed, probably close to an
80% failure rate, for the part of the curve which they did reveal was clearly an
exponential curve).
 
But their people with 3 years, 4 years, and 5 years sobriety were all staying
sober. This counterbalanced all the newcomers who were failing to make it. So in
any given year, they could truthfully say that 77% to 83% of THEIR TOTAL
MEMBERSHIP was staying sober.
 
That did not at all mean that 77% to 83% of the newcomers who walked into their
meetings for the first time were going to end up permanently sober.
 
So for example, of those who had completed their first 90 days, but had not yet
completed a full six months, the Minneapolis chart tells us that 52% of these
people went out and got drunk again. And between six months and nine months,
there was still a hefty 30% who went back out and got drunk. This was an
incredibly high failure rate.
 
These figures from 1943 to 1945 are not better than modern AA. In fact, based on
the figures in the Triennial Reports, this was WORSE than modern AA. We do a
whole lot better than that nowadays, at least with the people who have been in
the program between three months and nine months, where their problems in
Minneapolis seem to have been greatest.
 
The A.A. Grapevine, August 1946, Page 1
Minneapolis Record Indicates that 75% Are Successful in A.A.
 
The Minneapolis Group, in March, 1943, inaugurated a system for keeping a record
of the sobriety of members from three months on up. As a result, the following
exact percentages have been arrived at:
 
For the Year 1945
 
5-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped
4-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped
3-yr. members ... 100% successful ... 0% slipped
2-yr. members ... 89% successful ... 11% slipped
18-mo. members ... 90% successful ... 10% slipped
1-yr. members ... 80% successful ... 20% slipped
9-mo. members ... 82% successful ... 18% slipped
6-mo. members ... 70% successful ... 30% slipped
3-mo. members ... 48% successful ... 52% slipped
(Of those who slipped in 1945, only 16-1/2% have worked back to any degree of
sobriety.)
 
Over-all Percentages
 
1943 78% successful 22% slipped
1944 83% successful 17% slipped
1945 77% successful 23% slipped

- - - -

MODERN A.A.

In the modern AA figures -- see http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf -- we follow
newcomers month by month for an entire year, and we don't rely on whether the
person says that he or she has been continuously dry, but merely record
continued attendance at AA meetings. And then our figures record how many have
been attending AA meetings for over one year, over five years, over ten years,
and so on. Since it is only rarely that people continue to attend AA meetings
over a long period of time if they are still drinking regularly (although we
certainly had a couple of people in my home group back in the past who kept on
drinking for ten to fifteen years before they finally got sober!), it is clear
that MODERN A.A. HAS A VERY IMPRESSIVE LONG TERM SUCCESS RATE.

- - - -
 
EARLY PHILADELPHIA:

The early Philadelphia figures are a lot like the early New Jersey figures, that
is, the majority of the successes they are claiming, which they are using to
claim such a prodigiously high success rate, are based on cases where the people
have only been dry for three or four months (or in one case just a single
month).  There is no workable way to compare them very well with modern AA
retention rate figures like the ones just mentioned. But here is what the
Philadelphia figures said:

Philadelphia A.A. Statistics 1940-1941
 
The Philadelphia A.A. group was formed February 20, 1940
 
Special Report On AA Work At The Philadelphia General Hospital
 
December 13, 1940
 
The following is the complete experience of the Philadelphia A.A. Group with
patients of the Philadelphia General Hospital since March 15. On this list are
included only those men who have attended at least two or three A.A. meetings
and have signified their intention of following the A.A. program.
 
Brief notes on the various individuals follow (the original letter had full
names & addresses):
 
Joseph A. - Dry seven months, no trouble.
Frank B. - Dry five months, one slip after he left group one month ago.
Herbert C. B. - Dry four months, no trouble.
Joshua D. B. - Probably psychopathic; continuous slips.
Charles J. C. - Dry nine months, no trouble.
John D. - Dry four months through Philadelphia General Hospital and Byberry.
Joseph D. - Dry four months, no trouble.
George G. - Dry one month, no trouble.
John H. H. - Continuous slips before and after hospitalization.
William K. - Dry four months, no trouble.
Alfred K. - Dry four months, no trouble.
Arthur T. McM. - Dry eight months, no trouble.
William P. - Continuous after two hospitalizations, only attended five meetings,
no work.
Harry McC. - Dry eleven months, one slip two months ago, hospitalization then.
James S. - Continuous slips before and after hospitalization.
George K. - Continuous trouble up to two months ago, first hospital May.
C. M. M. - Dry nine months, no trouble.
Hugh O'H. - Dry two months, no trouble.
Edmonds P. - Dry nine months, hospitalization recent, trouble since.
William J. P. - Dry three months, no trouble.
James R. - Dry five months, no trouble.
William R. - Dry six weeks, no trouble.
Carl R. - Dry eight weeks.
Biddle S. - Dry four months, hospital trouble now dry one month.
Thomas S. - Dry four months, one slip.
David W. - Dry seven months, no trouble.
William W. - Dry nine months, no trouble.
Margery W. - Dry three months, no trouble.
 
Nineteen out of twenty-eight who have come through the Philadelphia General
Hospital have had no trouble. Of the nine who have had trouble, five have been
with the group and had trouble previous to hospitalization.
 
This list was made at the request of Jack Alexander, writer for the Saturday
Evening Post.
 
(Signed) A. W. Hammer M. D. - Surgeon
(Signed) C. D. Saul, M. D. - Chief resident, Saint Luke's Hospital
(Signed) Philadelphia General Hospital, By: John F. Stouffer M. D. - Chief
Psychiatrist
 
*************************
 
From:
AA
Philadelphia Group
Post Office Box 332
William Penn Annex
 
To:
Alcoholic Foundation
30 Vesey Street
New York, N. Y.
December 14, 1940
 
Gentlemen:
 
We believe that the time has arrived when we can give you a preliminary
statement of the results of the work of Alcoholics Anonymous in Philadelphia
since its inception in this city on February 20, 1940. This in effect is a ten
months' report but for all practical purposes it can be considered only nine
months because about a month was occupied in working out methods of prosecuting
the activities.
 
According to the records of the Group, which have been kept with reasonable
accuracy, ninety-nine men and women have during this period attended at least
two meetings of the A. A. Group. In other words, they have had a fair
opportunity to familiarize themselves with the A. A. program of recovery as
given at the Thursday night meetings held at Saint Luke's and Children's
Hospital.
 
Of the ninety-nine, seventy have remained dry without any slip at all; thirteen
others are recovering from one or more slips, and sixteen have slipped without
recovery up to the present time. It is not impossible that some of these sixteen
may yet return to the Group.
 
Of the seventy, who have been dry without slips, thirty-nine have been dry from
one to three months; seventeen from three to six months; twenty-five from six
months to a year, and five from one to three years.
 
Obviously these five were not dried up through the activities of the
Philadelphia A. A. Group but have recovered from alcoholism in other localities
and through other means.
 
You can see that the Philadelphia A. A. Group has a core of thirty men who, we
have every reason to believe, will never drink again. Seventeen more have gotten
by the three months' critical period. It has been our observation that the first
three months are the most difficult and that the man who gets by that period has
every reason to believe that he is on the road to complete recovery.
 
We are even more sanguine of results which shall be achieved since we succeeded
in opening our clubhouse about one month ago. It is being used extensively,
especially by the unmarried men and is proving helpful not only as a social
center but as a base for the spreading of the A. A. message.
 
We can testify as physicians to the increasing interest in A. A. work among
members of the medical fraternity and are grateful for the opportunity that the
A. A. has given us of assisting in the recovery of the unfortunate victims of
alcoholism.
 
(Signed) A. W. Hammer M. D. - Surgeon
(Signed) C. Dudley Saul, Chief Resident Saint Luke's Hospital
 
*************************
 
Statistical Record of Philadelphia Alcoholics Anonymous Group (dated 9/29/41)
 
The Philadelphia A. A. Group was formed February 27, 1940, with seven men as a
nucleus. Six of these are definitely recovered cases.
 
We consider a man or woman an active member of A. A. when they have been dry in
the group two months and have attended at least six general meetings.
 
We now have an ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP of one hundred and thirteen alcoholics,
eighty-three of whom have not had a drink since their first A. A. meeting.  Five
of these have been dry from two to four years, twenty-seven dry from one to two
years, forty-one dry from six to twelve months and twenty-six dry three to six
months.
 
Twenty-three of these active members came directly from the Philadelphia General
Hospital, thirteen from other hospitals and institutions.
 
There have been only twenty-three active members who do not appear to be
recovering. These are not included in the above figures. Neither are the fifty
other men and women who are now in the process of becoming members.
 
This gives us a total general membership of Two Hundred men and women.
 
To the best of our knowledge, the foregoing is correct.
 
(Signed) Dr. A. Weise Hammer
(Signed) Dr. C. Dudley Saul
Medical directors

- - - -

MODERN A.A. RETENTION RATES

And again, I would ask you to look at all of the data about early AA success
rates collected in http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf and analyzed in detail in
pages 14-18 and 22-23.

Please, YOU HAVE TO DO THE WORK required to look at ALL the surviving documents
from the early AA period, and you have to read and think about "the fine print"
in each of those early claims.
 
The important thing to note is how frequently the 50%-75% rule had a guarding
phrase added: "of those who tried" or "of those who genuinely wanted to stop
drinking."  And this was coupled with the admission that only 2 or 3 out every 5
people whom they tried working with seemed to them to "really try."
 
If the 2 out of 5 people formula is followed, this means that in early AA, only
50% of the 40% who "really tried" actually got sober and stayed sober the first
time they tried AA, which means only a 20% success rate the first time around.
 
We can compare this with the retention figures which we see in
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf which indicate that in modern AA, 56% of the
people who have completed 90 days of attending AA meetings, will still be
attending AA meetings at the end of the year.

I'm not trying to make early AA "look bad," merely trying to point out that we
need to quit trying to compare apples with oranges. The truth seems to be that,
in so far as we can put early AA figures and modern AA figures on the same
statistical basis, they did pretty good back in the old days, and WE STILL DO
EXTREMELY GOOD TODAY, maybe even a little better (because of more people with
many more years of experience who can serve as guides and sponsors and good
examples to the newcomers).

The main thing though, is to kill this total nonsense which can still be seen in
places on the web, going back originally to Richard K. <goldentextpro@aol.com>
(goldentextpro at aol.com) and his supporters, see Message 1351

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1351

Richard K. insisted that modern AA has only a 2.4 - 4.8% success rate, based
partly on a total failure to understand the statistics in the A.A. Triennial
Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989. But his backers and supporters started
vigorously posting those figures (sometimes abbreviated as "modern AA has been
proven to only have a 5% success rate") every place on the internet which would
let them post messages.

Their argument today is "but of course the 5% success rate figure is true, you
see it cited everywhere on the internet so it MUST be true"!!!!

0 -1 0 0
6188 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Buddhism and AA Buddhism and AA 12/28/2009 2:02:00 PM

From Ted G. and Baileygc23

- - - -

From: Ted G. = "Edward" <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age p.81 has a
reference to a Thai Buddhist abbot approving
the Twelve Steps, quoted in As Bill Sees It
p.223.

Y'all's in service,

Ted G.

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Interest in Buddhism went back of AA into the
Oxford Group period. In his historical novel
Wide is the Gate (1943), Upton Sinclair described
Oxford Groupers holding séances in London with
a self-proclaimed medium who claimed to channel
the spirits of the Indian chief Tecumseh and a
long-dead Ceylonese Buddhist monk.

This account (from AA Literature) is also worth
reading: an excerpt from the author of the
"Physician, Heal Thyself!", interview with the
Grapevine (GV). October 1995 edition.

GV: Have you had periods in sobriety that were
emotionally difficult?

Dr. Earle: Oh my, yes. So did Bill -- you know
that Bill had a long depression. Let me tell
you how I got at some emotional rest. Years
ago, a medical college in the South asked me
to go to Saigon as a visiting professor to
help the Vietnamese set up a new department
in gynecology and obstetrics.

Before I left, I went back to see Bill and Lois
and Marty M. and some others, and I spent about
eight or nine days back in New York before I
went to Asia. Bill took me to the airport and
on the way there he said, "You know, Earle,
I've been sober longer than anyone else in our
organization. After all I was sober six months
when I met Bob. But," he said, "I don't have
too much peace of mind." He said, "I feel down
in the dumps a hell of a lot."

So I said, "So do I, Bill. I don't have much
serenity either." I was sober by this time
maybe sixteen, seventeen years. He said,
"Do me a favor. When you get over to Asia,
see if you can investigate firsthand, the
various religions in Asia. That means Hinduism,
Buddhism, and Taoism, and Confucianism and
ancestral worship and the whole shebang."

And I said, "All right, I'll do it." And he
said, "Stay in contact with me and maybe we
can find something in those religions. After
all, we've taken from William James, we've
taken from all the Christian religions. Let's
see what these others have."

So I hugged Bill and got on the plane and went
to Asia. I had three or four rest and relaxation
periods a year but I didn't rest and relax. I
was determined to find something that would
bring peace and serenity to me. I spent a lot
of time in Nepal and in Indonesia. I spent time
in India.

I went into these places looking, looking,
looking for serenity. I spent two or three
years just driving to find out something. I
tried meditation, I read the Bhagavad Gita,
the Vedas -- everything. I went to an ashram on
the southeast coast of India, run by a very
famous guru and saint. There were about a hundred
and fifty East Indians there. I was the only
Westerner and they welcomed me. I wore a dhoti
-- that's a white skirt that men wear --
and I wore one like the rest of them did. We
all ate on the ground on great big banana
leaves over a yard long. There would be food
on the banana leaves and you'd make it into a
ball with your right hand and throw it into
your mouth. There were no knives or forks at
all, so I did what they did. I didn't like the
taste very much but I did it.

I happened to be there at the time of the Feast of Dewali. Dewali is like our
time of Easter; it's the time of renewal. We were awakened on the early morning
of Dewali around two o'clock. This ashram was located at the base of a mountain
known as Arunachal. Now Arunachal in Hindi means sun, and the myth goes that one
of the gods, Rama, lives inside of this mountain.

We were told we had to walk around the base of this mountain-which was a ten
mile walk-and as we walked, we were yelling to Rama. If you do it in a very firm
and believing way, it's said that Rama will come up and wave at you and bless
you. I was there, and I did it. We walked around and we were yelling "Rama,
Rama, Rama" hoping that Rama would come up and bless us all. They all walked in
their bare feet. I didn't, I wore my shoes. Gosh, I was tired. But I walked all
night long, the whole distance.

After that event, I came back to my little apartment in Saigon, ready to return
to my medical work. I was so beaten because I'd been driving and searching and
clenching my fists for almost three years (and I kept writing to Bill about all
this, you know). And I came into my apartment and I suddenly collapsed down onto
the floor. I lay there breathing kind of heavily and I said to myself, "Oh to
hell with serenity, I don't care if it ever comes."

And I meant it. And do you know what happened? All of a sudden the craving to
find serenity utterly evaporated-and there it was. Serenity. The trouble was the
search . . . looking out there for what was right here.

You know, we only have this given second. There's always now. Once I realized
that, serenity became mine. Now -- I'm speaking about emotions -- I haven't
sought one single thing since that day because it's all right here. I often say
to people at meetings. "You're trying to find peace of mind out there. I don't
blame you, but it isn't out there. It's here. Right here."

Now do I think there is a supreme being, a God? Sure I do. Of course. But do I
have any religious beliefs? No. Religion demands that you do certain things and
my life in AA isn't like that. AA is a very loose-Jointed organization. People
say there is only one way to work the program. That's crazy. We talk about the
"suggested" Steps, which are guides to recovery, not absolutes. Chapter five of
the Big Book says "no one among us has been able to maintain anything like
perfect adherence to these principles." If we had all the members of AA standing
here, everyone would have a different idea what AA is all about. Bill's idea was
different from Dr. Bob's, yours will bedifferent from mine. And yet they're all
based on one thing and that is: don't drink, and use the Twelve Steps in your
own way.

- - - -

SEE ALSO HIS BIOGRAPHY IN THE WEB SITE ON
THE AUTHORS OF THE STORIES IN THE BIG BOOK:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm

Dr. Earl M. San Francisco Bay area, California
"Physician Heal Thyself"
2nd edition p. 393, 3rd edition p. 345, 4th edition p. 301

Earle had his last day of drinking and using drugs on June 15, 1953. An A.A.
friend, Harry, took him to his first meeting the following week, the Tuesday
Night Mill Valley A.A. group, which met in Wesley Hall at the Methodist Church.
There were only five people there, all men: a butcher, a carpenter, a baker, and
his friend Harry H, a mechanic/inventor. He loved A.A. from the start, and
though he has been critical of the program at times, his devotion has remained
constant.

Described in his story heading as a psychiatrist and surgeon, he was qualified
in many fields. During his long career, he has been a prominent professor of
obstetrics and gynecology, and an outstanding clinician at the University of
California at San Francisco. He was a fellow of the American College of Surgeons
and of the International College of Surgeons, a diplomat of the American Board
of Obstetrics and Gynecology, board-certified psychiatrist, vice-president of
the American Association of Marital and Family Therapists, and a lecturer on
human sexuality.

He was raised in San Francisco, but was born on August 3, 1911, in Omaha,
Nebraska, and lived there until he was ten. His parents were alcoholics. In
Omaha they lived on the wrong side of the tracks, and he wore hand-me-down
clothes from relatives. He was ashamed of this, and could not begin to accept it
until years later. He revealed none of this in his story. Instead he talked
about how successful he had been in virtually everything he had done. He said he
lost nothing that most alcoholics lose, and described his skid row as the skid
row of success.

But in 1989 he wrote an autobiography by the same title, which reveals much more
of his story.

During his first year in A.A. he went to New York and met Bill Wilson. They
became very close and talked frequently both on the phone and in person. He
frequently visited Bill at his home, Stepping Stones. He called Bill one of his
sponsors, and said there was hardly a topic they did not discuss in detail. He
took a Fifth Step with Bill. And Bill often talked over his depressions with
Earle.

In a search for serenity Earle studied and practiced many forms of religion:
Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and ancestor worship.

He has long been a strong advocate for the cross-addiction theory, and predicted
that over time we would see the evolution of Addictions Anonymous.

When he was sober about ten years, Earle developed resentments against newcomers
and began a group in San Francisco for oldtimers. It was called The Forum. He
wrote a credo for it designed of ten steps for chemically dependent people. He
felt that addiction represents a single disease with many open doors leading to
it: alcohol, opiates, amphetamines, cocaine, etc. Most of the Forum members were
also devoted A.A. members.

He also established a new kind of A.A. group, which used confrontational
techniques. Some A.A. members disliked it intensely, while others seemed to gain
a great deal from it.

Many alcoholics make geographic changes when they are drinking. But Earle seems
to have made his after achieving sobriety. He has lived in many places, both in
this country and abroad, traveled around the world three times, and attended
A.A. everywhere he went. He also married several times.

In 1968 he divorced his first wife, Mary, whom he had married in 1940. She once
told him she had great respect for him as a doctor, but none as a human being.
He admitted that he'd had affairs during the marriage, even after joining A.A.
His relationship with their only child, Jane, who was a very successful opera
singer, was strained, but he gave her an opportunity to air her feelings in his
book. She wrote that when she received the gold medallion at the International
Tchaikovsky Voice Competition in Moscow in 1966, a high honor, her father did
not attend. Some people told her that it was not easy for him to see her become
such a success -- to be so in the public eye. She added that their paths were
still separate, but she did not ever totally close a door because he WAS her
father.

In the 1960s he was experimenting with encounter and sensitivity awareness
groups, which were then in vogue. At one of the encounter marathons he met his
second wife, Katie, and within a year they were married and soon moved to Lake
Tahoe. They lived separately except for two brief periods, and after a few years
were divorced.

Later he accepted a job with the U.S. State Department at the University of
Saigon Medical School, in Korea. He spent five years there, after which he
returned to San Francisco, hoping to rekindle his marriage to Katie.

In September 1975 he moved to Hazard, Kentucky, to work at the Hazard
Appalachian Regional Hospital. There he met his third wife, Freda, thirty years
younger than he was. Freda came from a truly humble background. She was the
daughter of a miner who had died of black lung disease. She and her six brothers
were raised in a typical two-room coal miner's house in Hazard. During his
relationship with her and her family he was able to put to rest some ghosts
concerning his Nebraska background. This wonderful family helped him to
re-evaluate his memories of Omaha.

In 1978 his feet began again to itch again. He accepted short-term job in Napal.
When he was offered a long-term assignment Freda and his stepsons did not want
to leave Kentucky. Disappointed, he returned to Kentucky, and obtained work as a
gynecologist in a family planning clinic, and also lectured to medical students
on human sexuality at the University of Louisville Medical School. When he moved
again, this time to Kirkland, Washington, Freda again refused to leave Kentucky.
They were divorced soon after. They remained friendly and talked to one another
on the phone about twice a year.

From all his travels, he always seemed to return to the San Francisco Bay Area.
In 1980 he accepted a position as medical director of the Institute for Advanced
Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco. There he met his fourth wife, Mickey.
She was a Ph.D. candidate at the Institute. He described her as a vibrant, open,
honest, direct woman without pretense, non-threatening, sexually on fire,
lacking in prejudice, and tolerant about all aspects of life -- including human
sexuality. She was already an Al-Anon member when they met, having been married
to an alcoholic. She also made contributions in the field of alcoholism and
recovery at Merritt Peralta Chemical Dependence Recovery Hospital in Oakland,
California. They married and remained together until her death in 2000. His book
is dedicated to her.

I talked to Earle on July 27, 2001. He told me he still gets to an A.A. meeting
almost every day. His eyesight is not too good, but otherwise he is full of vim
and vigor. Form his voice, I would have taken him for a man of 40. He missed the
A.A. International Convention last year because of Mickey's ill health, but he
hopes to attend the one in 2005.

0 -1 0 0
6189 Arthur S
Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs 12/28/2009 7:07:00 PM

An omission on my part - Lois' grandfather
Nathan Clark Burnham, a Swedenborgian minister,
performed the wedding ceremony.

Arthur

- - - -

From: Arthur S
Subject: Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham
family's religious beliefs

A small Swedenborgian factoid:

On January 24, 1918, spurred by rumor that
Bill W might soon go overseas, he and Lois
were married at the Swedenborgian Church of
the New Jerusalem in Brooklyn, NY. The wedding
date was originally scheduled for February 1.
Lois' brother Rogers Burnham was best man (he
was also reputed to be good friends with Bill).

Cheers

Arthur

0 -1 0 0
6190 Arthur S
Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect Huxley on Bill W. as social architect 12/28/2009 8:13:00 PM

Big Book (pg 125): "We alcoholics are sensitive people"

Baileygc23, message 6169 was not a criticism
of you -- it was a criticism of the way many AA
members seem to take broad-brush and back-handed
swipes at religion.

Bill W's statements to the American Psychiatric Association 105th Annual
Meeting in Montreal (May 1949) noted that:

"Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization; there is no dogma.
The one theological proposition is a "Power greater than one's self." Even
this concept is forced on no one. The newcomer merely immerses himself in
our society and tries the program as best he can. Left alone, he will surely
report the gradual onset of a transforming experience, call it what he may.
Observers once thought A.A. could appeal only to the religiously
susceptible. Yet our membership includes a former member of the American
Atheist Society and about 20,000 others almost as tough. The dying can
become remarkably open minded. Of course we speak little of conversion
nowadays because so many people really dread being God-bitten. But
conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic
process; all other devices are but the foundation. When one alcoholic works
with another, he but consolidates and sustains that essential experience.
... We like to think Alcoholics Anonymous a middle ground between medicine
and religion, the missing catalyst of a new synthesis. This to the end that
the millions who still suffer may presently issue from their darkness into
the light of day! ..."

[==THIS IS THE INTERESTING PART==]

"I am sure that
none attending this great Hall of Medicine will feel it untoward if I leave
the last word to our silent partner, Religion: God grant us the serenity to
accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and
wisdom to know the difference."

This is a bit of a different context than you originally cited. Bill W did
not distance himself from religion - he wished only to avoid the perception
or action of affiliation. The closest individual friendship Bill had (in
terms of a genuine sponsor) was Father Edward Dowling, a Jesuit priest. Dr
Bob had the same type of friendship with Sister Ignatia, a Catholic Nun.
Bill W and Dr Bob treated them both with respect and affection and did not
consider them pariahs. Bill W also underwent 2 years of personal instruction
with Bishop Fulton J Sheen with the intention of converting to Roman
Catholicism. He later declined to convert reputedly because he did not want
to give the impression of affiliation.

Happy holidays (a contraction of "holy days")

Arthur

- - - -

Original message from: Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009
Subject: Re: Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect

Message #6169 from "Arthur S" was an extremely
lengthy criticism of me for saying, in Message 6165
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6165

"AA is not a Religious organization; there is
no dogma. The one theological proposition is
a power greater than one's self. Even this
concept is forced on no one."

That was a quote from Bill Wilson.

I am sorry if, in Arthur's opinion, Bill Wilson
got the AA position all wrong.

0 -1 0 0
6191 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: the term ex-alcoholic the term ex-alcoholic 12/28/2009 10:09:00 PM

What portion of the basic text used the term
"ex-alcoholic" and what was it changed to?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See Message 2258 from: Jim Blair
<jblair@videotron.ca> (jblair at videotron.ca)

1st Edition - changes made in the 11th Printing
- Title states "THOUSANDS OF MEN AND WOMEN."
- Increased thickness 1/16, decreased height 1/8 inches.
- P28-L22, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P30-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P178-L20, Him to HIM.
- P271-L16, Ex-Alcoholic to Ex-Problem Drinker.
- P272-L06, Ex-Alcoholic to understanding
- P330-L30, Ex-Alcoholic to Non-Drinker.

- - - -

Original Message from Tommy Hickcox in Baton Rouge
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009
Subject: Re: More on Huxley etc. -- the term ex-alcoholic

I would note that the First Edition of our
Big Book used the term "ex-alcoholic" six times,
on pp. 28, 30, 271, 272, and 330, and it wasn't
until the 11th Printing in 1947 that it was
changed. I suspect the term was commonly used
then.

0 -1 0 0
6192 Arthur S
Religion and AA Religion and AA 12/28/2009 6:52:00 PM

From Jon Markle and Arthur S.

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com>
(arthur.s at live.com)

The Happiest of Holidays to you Jon

I think this could make for a good historical discussion, namely "where does
religion fit in AA and what does AA owe to religion"? The answer will likely
vary substantially based on one's choice of the meaning of "religion" and
"religious" and whether or not it is conditioned on disillusionment (you
seem to perceive religion as a peril).

There is also the matter of today's secularism (where the term "spiritual"
is used as a more palatable substitute for the word "religion"). I'm not
speaking of institutionalized Religion or a specific set of beliefs of a
particular denomination. Etymologically the words "religious" and
"spiritual" are interchangeable. Search the various dictionary sites on the
web and compare the definitions of the two words."

I'll borrow from the internet:

The word "spirit" and "spiritual" generally mean "of the soul" and are
derived from the Latin word "spiritus" (the breath of life). Interestingly
"spirits" also means distilled alcohol. Arguments over which German word to
use to express the equivalent of the word "spiritual" led to the great Big
Book copyright lawsuit of a few years ago.

The term "religion" (a difficult word to define) is defined here as "any
specific system of belief, worship, or conduct that prescribes certain
responses to the existence and character of God." (I don't include atheism
in this - it is a torturous non-sequitur promulgated by legal rather than
religious matters). The term "religious" is defined as "having or showing
belief in, and reverence for, God."

My assertion is that religion (and clergy) were, and remain, a great asset
to AA. No one, except you, is positing this with the absurd notion of
"religious interference in AA" that would "kill us all" and also the notion
of citing history "real or imagined" as being "dangerous." This is a history
special interest group. Don't go off track with hyperbole and editorial.

Bill W's statements to the American Psychiatric Association 105th Annual
Meeting Montreal, Quebec, May 1949 noted that:

"Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization; there is no dogma.
The one theological proposition is a "Power greater than one's self." Even
this concept is forced on no one. The newcomer merely immerses himself in
our society and tries the program as best he can. Left alone, he will surely
report the gradual onset of a transforming experience, call it what he may.
Observers once thought A.A. could appeal only to the religiously
susceptible. Yet our membership includes a former member of the American
Atheist Society and about 20,000 others almost as tough. The dying can
become remarkably open minded. Of course we speak little of conversion
nowadays because so many people really dread being God-bitten. But
conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic
process; all other devices are but the foundation. When one alcoholic works
with another, he but consolidates and sustains that essential experience.
... We like to think Alcoholics Anonymous a middle ground between medicine
and religion, the missing catalyst of a new synthesis. This to the end that
the millions who still suffer may presently issue from their darkness into
the light of day! ... I am sure that none attending this great Hall of
Medicine will feel it untoward if I leave the last word to our silent
partner, Religion: God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot
change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the
difference."

By the way quite a number of church congregations today have their own
recovery groups that use both the 12 Steps and the tenets of their faith and
are successful. I have a number of friends that attend both. Depending upon
one's outlook and attitude it does not have to be an either/or situation.

I remember when words such a "religion" and "church" were viewed with
respect and not considered anathema - it wasn't that long ago from "the
now".

Bill W asserted that AA's two best friends were religion and medicine.
That's still the world now.

Cheers
Arthur

PS - a final tidbit - what percentage of meetings do you think are held in
church halls at very nominal rental expense (i.e. Religions extending a
cooperative and helping hand to AA).

- - - -

From: Jon Markle (Raleigh, North Carolina)
<serenitylodge@mac.com> (serenitylodge at mac.com)
Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009

Responding to John Barton: I couldn't agree with
you more, John. Thanks for saying so.

AA is no more a religious program, as such, than it is a medical or
physiological or social program . . . even though large parts of our recovery
suggestions come from those disciplines as well.

It is the synthesis and the symbiotic relationship between all that is man that
seems to be the key to making it work for us alcoholics. The whole person
approach. Leave one part out, or emphasize only one aspect (say "religious" for
example) and the whole thing gets lopsided and is no more powerful -- if even
doable -- than the sum of that one component. And we all know the trouble the
Oxford people had getting us sober, permanently! <GRIN>

John Barton had written:

> <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
>
> The Big Book and Twelve and Twelve contain a
> fair amount of "theological propositions". Both books espouse the
> Christian-Judeo theology of the Bible with the frequent use of such terms as
> "Father, Creator, Maker, Father of Light who presides over us all, "Him",
> "He" etc. There is also significant use of bible quotes throughout both texts
> such as "Thy will be done", "The Father doeth the works", "Faith without works
> is dead" and many more too numerous and hopefully not necessary to quote here.
>
> As Nell Wing said Bill's greatest ability was that of a "synthesizer". Taking
> that which already existed from Medicine and Religion and adapting it to our
> special use.
>
> Whether or not AA is Spiritual, Religious, both, neither and whether of not
our
> twelve steps constitute "dogma" or "doctrine" would seem to be outside issues,
> best left to the experts in the fields of sociology and anthropology.
>
> I would also point out that just because AA says ......"xyz"..... or Bill W.
> said ..."abc".... doesn't necessarily make it so.
>
> God Bless

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>
(serenitylodge at mac.com)
Date: Mon Dec 28, 2009

It seems to me that the alleged "influence" of religion, especially Western
Christian influence, we read about upon AA is more of re-write of history by
those fanatics that would have it to be so. When in fact, AA was, in my
readings, more inclined to stay away from such dogmatic influences. Since
Christianity is the dominant religion here in the USA, it seeks to take the
credit for AA by coloring anything that has to do with "spirituality", as
"theirs".

A good historian of AA history should be able to realize this misguided, but
increasing attempt to hijack the Fellowship. And that is, I hope, one thing
this list needs to avoid, "religiously". <smile>

Thank you Les, and others here, for towing the line between what is speculation
and what is truth.

Jon Markle/MA
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling
Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality
HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations
Raleigh, NC
9/9/82

- - - -

Original message from: Jon Markle
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009
Subject: Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect

Back in the day, so to speak, perhaps there is some basis to reason and
conclude that are mostly accurate, about no difference between "religion"
and "spiritual". But, I have my sincere doubts about such an observation,
having had some passing study of our colorful history (in AA) through this
group.

Historical facts can be cited by anyone to justify and support just about
any idea. But, that does not make it so.

However, today, it cannot be said that "religion" and "spiritual" are one in
the same. They are most decidedly NOT. And this is the world . . . the NOW .
. . that interests me most. We have resources and understanding today that
the drunks did not have back then. Dare I say, better? "More will be
revealed". Living in the past world will not help us grow. We must learn
from their mistakes. If religion offered us the answer we sought to have the
desire to drink removed, we would not need AA. Fact is, it didn't work.

And there's the crux. No one (I hope) wants religious interference in AA, I
think. That would indeed kill us all, I'm afraid. And attempts to justify
such moves, by citing "history" . . . real and imagined, are very damaging,
I think. And make AA into a thing that becomes both scary and
non-productive. Just like church could not get me sober, neither could an AA
meeting that sounds like church.

Jon Markle
Raleigh
9/9/82

0 -1 0 0
6193 J. Lobdell
Re: Religion and AA Religion and AA 12/28/2009 7:24:00 PM

I'm not sure that the AAHistoryLovers provides the proper platform for an
editorial saying "historical facts can be cited by anyone to justify and support
just about any idea" -- followed by comments about the present state of the
religious/spiritual dichotomy (or non-dichotomy).

Comments on current affairs in AA aren't really our meat, though an argument --
not simply dismissive comments -- on the possible false uses of history may be.

One question, of course, is what is meant by "religion" or "religious" -- on
that depend most of the useful things we could say about the dichotomy -- always
provided we have an agreed-upon definition of "spiritual" -- but I'm not clear
that we do. My own view fwiw is that by "spiritual" we mean pretty much what
was meant by "religious" back in the Washingtonian days, and by "religious"
pretty much what they meant by "Gospel" -- so that this isn't a new thing.

As to "justifying" religious interference in AA, I may have missed the reference
point -- I have no idea what is being talked about. Of course, the corporation
is incorporated under the laws of the State of New York and is considered by
that State as an religious body, so (I believe) that testimony cannot be
compelled from members on what was said in a closed meeting (there was a court
case not too long ago) -- being considered a "religious" body has certain
advantages, I suppose.

I understand that Jon M. (if that is our correspondent's name) wants to keep AA
out of "Church" hands, doesn't want organized religion in. Neither do I. If he
wants to correspond on the question with me individually, I would more than
welcome it: I suspect we agree on quite a lot. But is this the proper venue?

- - - -

This is responding to Jon Markle's message
Re: Huxley on Bill W. as social architect
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009

0 -1 0 0
6194 jenny andrews
Re: Religion and AA Religion and AA 12/29/2009 8:50:00 AM

"Sensitivity to both the non-religious within the fellowship and the
professionally religious outside of it led Alcoholics Anonymous to resist
identification as an expression of religion. The plea within was for
'open-mindedness'. It infused AA from Dr Bob Smith's stress on 'tolerance' to
the final substantive paragraph of the Big Book's appendix, 'Spiritual
Experience': 'We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of
the program. Willingness, honesty and open-mindednness are the essentials of
recovery. But these are indispensable'."

(From chapter eight [The context of the history of religious ideas], Not God: a
history of Alcoholics Anonymous; Ernest Kurtz; Hazelden; 1991.)

It is confusing to conflate spirituality with religion; substitute religion for
spirituality in the BB appendix quotation to see the difference. Willingness,
honesty and open-mindedness are universal values not confined to religion.
Semantically spiritual also stands against material; recovery results from a
spiritual awakening; it is not a commodity.

(See Kurtz, Twelve Step Programs, in "Spirituality and the Secular Quest" [World
Spirituality series]; editor, Peter H. Van Ness; SCM Press; 1996.)

0 -1 0 0
6195 jaynebirch55
What psychological or mental diagnosis? What psychological or mental diagnosis? 12/29/2009 3:48:00 PM

Hi there,

Jayne from Barking Big Book study. Hope you
had a fantastic christmas and wishing you the
happiest of new years.

I was wondering if you could help me with any
of the following.

Chapter 5, How it works, "usually men and women
who are constitutionally incapable of being
honest with themselves." Have you any further
information on this, such as was it a particular
mental illness Bill was refering to?

Also in chapter 8, page 114 "Sometimes there
are cases where alcoholism is complicated by
other disorders" and "unless the doctor thinks
his mental condition to abnormal or dangerous."
Do you have any details as to what these might
been or what Bill may have been refering to?

Were they thinking of precise mental conditions,
and were there specific psychological terms
which were used at that time to refer to people
with these problems?

I look forward to your reply

God bless

Jayne x x x x

- - - -

From the moderator:

Or in the case of inability to be honest with
ourselves, was this more of a philosophical
issue? I am thinking of the existentialist
philosophers of that period. Jean-Paul Sartre's
concept of mauvaise foi (literally "bad faith")
meant an attempt to manipulate other people
by a kind of deception and lying to them about
what you really wanted, which ended up with you
simultaneously believing your own lies, while
also, at some other deep level, KNOWING that
you were lying.

So mauvaise foi becomes always, inevitably,
"self-deception" and refusal to be honest with
yourself.

In the attempt to control others, you end up
losing your own freedom. You are torn in two
inside. And you end up plunged into what the
existentialist philosophers called ressentiment.

In Heidegger and Nietzsche, likewise, we have
to lie to ourselves and "live a lie" in one way
or another, in order to maintain our inauthentic
existence, and flee from the power of real life
and freedom, and avoid honestly living life on
life's terms.

There is a deeply existentialist flavor to the
Big Book, probably arising from the Zeitgeist
(the spirit of the times), the deeply shaking
experience of the First World War, and so on.
You can see it affecting the Oxford Group also,
in Philip Leon's The Philosophy of Courage:

http://stepstudy.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/philosophyofcourage.pdf

Glenn C.
South Bend, Indiana, US

0 -1 0 0
6196 Tom Hickcox
Religion and AA Religion and AA 12/29/2009 11:20:00 PM

Jon Markle wrote:

>Back in the day, so to speak, perhaps there is some basis to reason
>and conclude that are mostly accurate, about no difference between
>"religion" and "spiritual". But, I have my sincere doubts about
>such an observation, having had some passing study of our colorful
>history (in AA) through this group.

- - - -

I was looking at a copy of an old pamphlet out of Washington of the
four classes for new alcoholics and this comes Discussion No. 2, The
Spiritual Phase, which includes Steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 11, and is part
of the discussion of Step 3:

"3. RELIGION is a word we do not use in A.A. We refer to a member's
relation to God as the SPIRITUAL. A religion is a FORM of worship,
not worship itself."

This is probably the view in the '40s.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From the moderator: this careful distinction
between religion and spirituality (the same
distinction that is so often made in modern AA)
was being made in AA as least as early as 1944,
as we can tell from the date on Bobbie Burger's
letter below.

This particular pamphlet (which was referred
to as the Tablemate, the Table Leader's Guide,
the Washington D.C. Pamphlet, or the Detroit
Pamphlet) was reprinted and used by early AA
groups all across the United States, from the
east coast to the west coast, and everywhere
in between.

So is it "orthodox" for AA people to continue
to make the common distinction between religion
and spirituality? If everybody in AA, all over
the country, was doing it back in the 1940's,
then it's certainly an acceptable part of the
AA historical tradition.

Wally P. says that "in the Fall of 1944, a copy of the Washington, DC pamphlet
reached Barry C[ollins] -- one of the AA pioneers in Minneapolis. He wrote a
letter to the New York headquarters requesting permission to distribute the
pamphlet. We talk about 'Conference Approved Literature' today; but this is the
way the Fellowship operated back then. This is a letter from Bobbie B[urger],
Bill W.'s secretary, printed on 'Alcoholic Foundation' stationary."

November 11, 1944

Dear Barry:

. . . The Washington D.C. pamphlet and the new Cleveland "Sponsorship" pamphlet
and a host of others are all local projects. We do not actually approve or
disapprove of these local pieces; by that I mean that the Foundation feels each
Group is entitled to write up its own "can opener" and let it stand on its own
merits. All of them have good points and very few have caused any controversy.
But as in all things of a local nature, we keep hands off, either pro or con. I
think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets now being used and I've yet to
see one that hasn't had some good points. I think it is up to each individual
Group whether it wants to use and buy these pamphlets from the Group that puts
them out.

Sincerely, Bobbie (Margaret R. Burger)

0 -1 0 0
6197 Marlo Daugherty
Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more ea Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more ea 1/2/2010 5:43:00 AM

As someone told me on a different subject, "Don't get so hung up in the words
that you miss the point of the story." Here's the way I see the "statistics" in
the Foreword to the 2nd Edition: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really
tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way. . ." OK. That means that
if you are an alcoholic (as opposed to something else) and you come to A.A. and
really try, you've got a 50-50 chance of never drinking again. Can't argue with
that!

evergreen78

0 -1 0 0
6198 jax760
Re: Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more early examples Recovery rates -- lets look at the DETAILS, and at a few more early examples 1/1/2010 10:22:00 PM

My mistake .... the nine is a seven on the
document, the error was mine

Total members who have never taken a drink since joining -- 19
Number who have had only one slip since joining-- 7
Total successful 26

0 -1 0 0
6199 diazeztone
Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs 1/2/2010 1:33:00 AM

In reading this post and a couple of others
I decided to do some reading tonite on the
Swedenborgian religion and their movment.

Wow, very surprising. I wonder how much Lois
and Bill talked about this. I wonder how many
times they attended Swedenborgian church masses
or meetings.

Was Dr. Bob involved in this in any way?

Their religion even included 12 steps to heaven!!

I lookforward to reading this new research also!

LD Pierce
www.aabibligraphy.com

0 -1 0 0
6200 Charlie C
Using WorldCat.org to find books in nearby libraries Using WorldCat.org to find books in nearby libraries 12/30/2009 8:23:00 AM

   Hi, I've been a college librarian for many years and would like to respond to
Octoberbabye's request for a book on Silkworth. It's nice to own books, but
borrowing from libraries can work too, and is a lot cheaper :-)

   If you want to know how available in libraries a book is, after first
checking your local library catalog, look at www.worldcat.org. This is the free
public version of a massive shared records site for libraries across the
country. You can look for a specific book or browse for books on a subject etc.

   Once you find something it will tell you what libraries in your zip code area
own it.

As an example here is the link to the record for the book in question:
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51063745

   Then you can either borrow the book in person, or, use the universal
"inter-library loan" system to request that your local library get the book for
you. The record from WorldCat gives you all the info you need to make your
request. Depending on your library, there may be a small fee to process the
request - usually a dollar or two.

   Something to think about too is that if you live near a university or college
library, they often make provision for area residents to use their collections,
again usually for an annual fee. The college library I work in charges $25 a
year to area residents to be able to borrow our books, not a bad deal really.

   Good luck in all your researches!

Charlie C.IM = route20guy
Go settle down
And quit your triflin' ways
'Cause the boogerman's gonna get you one of these days  Kitty Wells, Make up
Your Mind, 1950

0 -1 0 0
6201 cwojohnwalter
Minority opinion question Minority opinion question 1/6/2010 9:19:00 AM

Is there a recorded precedence in which the
minority opinion was heard and then swayed the
majority opinion enough to change or table the
vote?

I realize that this might happen at the individual
group level often but I am looking for some
documentation of it happening at the Regional or
Higher Level.

I am giving a presentation about the minority
opinion and Concept V and would like to geek it
out as much as possible.

Love and Service - John

0 -1 0 0
6202 cwojohnwalter
Is it necessary to ask the floor for any minority opinion? Is it necessary to ask the floor for any minority opinion? 1/6/2010 9:47:00 AM

After an issue is debated and all sides of
have been heard and after the vote is taken
and there is a simple or 2/3 majority (whichever
is required) than is it necessary to ask the
floor for the minority to state its opinion if
it so wishes?

I understand the importance of an informed group
conscience as well as substantial unanimity.

But again, my question is: Is it necessary to
ask the floor for the minority to re-state its
opinion once the vote has been taken?

Love and Service - John

0 -1 0 0
6203 jenny andrews
Re: Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA 1/2/2010 9:12:00 AM

"By personal religious affiliation, we include
Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and
sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists ... "

(Big Book, Foreword to second edition, 1955)

0 -1 0 0
6204 Aloke Dutt
Re: Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA Buddhism (and Hinduism) and AA 1/3/2010 7:51:00 AM

The Ashram Dr. Earle described at the foothill
of Arunachalam is close to Madras(now Chennai)

The famous guru/saint was Raman Maharishi,
more here:

http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/

- - - -

Original message 6188 from Baileygc23@aol.com
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6188

... an excerpt from the author of the
"Physician, Heal Thyself!", interview with the
Grapevine (GV). October 1995 edition ....

Dr. Earle: I went back to see Bill and Lois
and Marty M. and some others, and I spent about
eight or nine days back in New York before I
went to Asia. Bill took me to the airport and
on the way there he said, "You know, Earle,
I've been sober longer than anyone else in our
organization. After all I was sober six months
when I met Bob. But," he said, "I don't have
too much peace of mind." He said, "I feel down
in the dumps a hell of a lot."

So I said, "So do I, Bill. I don't have much
serenity either." I was sober by this time
maybe sixteen, seventeen years. He said,
"Do me a favor. When you get over to Asia,
see if you can investigate firsthand, the
various religions in Asia. That means Hinduism,
Buddhism, and Taoism, and Confucianism and
ancestral worship and the whole shebang."

And I said, "All right, I'll do it." And he
said, "Stay in contact with me and maybe we
can find something in those religions. After
all, we've taken from William James, we've
taken from all the Christian religions. Let's
see what these others have."

... I spent a lot of time in Nepal and in
Indonesia. I spent time in India ....

I tried meditation, I read the Bhagavad Gita,
the Vedas -- everything. I went to an ashram on
the southeast coast of India, run by a very
famous guru and saint. There were about a hundred
and fifty East Indians there. I was the only
Westerner and they welcomed me. I wore a dhoti
-- that's a white skirt that men wear --
and I wore one like the rest of them did.

Etc., etc.

0 -1 0 0
6205 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Religion and AA Religion and AA 1/2/2010 12:22:00 PM

One of the most important messages in Ernie
Kurtz's great history of AA:

Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
Anonymous, expanded edition (Center City,
Minnesota: Hazelden, 1991; orig. 1979):

Over the period of the writer's research, one
especially serious question was repeatedly asked
by both old-timers interviewed and others with
whom observations were shared. Perhaps this
question was at least partially inspired by
the brazenness of an attempt to write the
"history" of a still vigorously living
phenomenon, but it was nevertheless a serious
question always seriously asked: How long will
Alcoholics Anonymous last? Might it change so
that it will no longer be Alcoholics Anonymous?"

To be able to pretend to be able to answer
directly would be to claim the mantle of prophet
rather than that of historian: but for all those
who so queried, I can now offer explicitly at
least the intuition that their very questions
as well as this research have suggested.

Alcoholics Anonymous shall survive as long
as its message remains that og the not-Godness
of the wholeness of accepted limitation; and
this itself shall endure so long as A.A.
spiritualizers and its liberals -- its "right"
and its "left" -- maintain in mutual respect
the creative tension that arises from their
willingness to participate even with other of
so different assumptions and temperaments in
the shared honesty of mutual vulnerability
openly acknowledged.

Alcoholics Anonymous will live, in other words,
so long as it is "Alcoholics Anonymous":
"an utter simplicity which encases a complete
mystery" that no one claims perfectly to
understand.

0 -1 0 0
6206 grault
Re: Religion and AA -- What is AA''s legal status in the US? Religion and AA -- What is AA''s legal status in the US? 1/2/2010 6:18:00 PM

If available, I'd appreciate a cite to the
New York case you referred to. My understanding
was to the contrary: that although AA IS a
"religious organization" (in the view of the
New York court), there is no legal privilege
because there is no communication intended to
be confidential to a minister, rabbi, priest
or the like.

I also understood that because AA is viewed
as "religious," it has been held by a N.Y. court
to be unconstitutional for a judge to "sentence"
someone to go to meeting for a driving-while-
intoxicated offense.

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:

Of course, the corporation is incorporated under the laws of the State of New
York and is considered by that State as an religious body, so (I believe) that
testimony cannot be compelled from members on what was said in a closed meeting
(there was a court case not too long ago) -- being considered a "religious" body
has certain advantages, I suppose.

0 -1 0 0
6207 pvttimt@aol.com
Re: Religion and AA Religion and AA 1/2/2010 2:39:00 PM

From: Tim, Jon Markle, Laurie Andrews, jax760,
and Charlie C.

- - - -

From: Tim ,pvttimt@aol.com> (pvttimt at aol.com)

In an attempt to tease out the nuance between
"religion" and "spirituality" ...

I see spirituality or spiritual experience as
something that I can have as an individual without
regard to anyone else. My inspiration may come
from nature, or any of many different sources.

Religion seems to begin when two or more people
agree on their own personal spiritual experiences,
sufficient that they choose to join together
and espouse that particular perspective. Then
they seek out others of similar experience to
join them in fellowship.

The unique aspect of AA is that we join the
fellowship only to find that it is not only
permissible to embrace our own personal version
of spirituality, but that we are urged to
do so -- not something that the typical religion
offers.

Tim

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>
(serenitylodge at mac.com)

On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote:

> Etymologically the words "religious" and
> "spiritual" are interchangeable. Search the various dictionary sites on the
> web and compare the definitions of the two words."

Here's the problem I think.

TODAY, the two words are not necessarily interchangeable. In fact, in most of
society today, they are not one in the same and have widely different meanings,
attributes and outcomes.

Perhaps the most egregious of societal attributes, "religion" as we know it
today especially, is highly political. Whereas spirituality is not.

And we know from experience that these two philosophies, religion and politics,
have no business in an AA meeting. For the most obvious reason: they are both
anti-recovery, anti "fellowship," by their nature.

Although many "religious" folk will probably tell you they are "spiritual," the
same is not true of "spiritual" folks.

Thus the dilemma. And thus the arguments in AA circles.

I see no particular benefit to religious arguments. Because they are ALL an
individual point of view and nothing more. Nothing can be factually proved.

ALSO:

On Dec 28, 2009, at 6:52 PM, Arthur S wrote:

> PS - a final tidbit - what percentage of meetings do you think are held in
> church halls at very nominal rental expense (i.e. Religions extending a
> cooperative and helping hand to AA).

This argument would be a great reason never to have AA in a church. Such
suppositions are why we MUST keep our meetings autonomous and anonymous from the
facilities in which they meet.

Perhaps more than any one thing you have said, this alone is the very proof we
must keep religion out of the Rooms.

It seems so obvious to me now, why we must keep this list clean of religious
superstitious pinning. AA is not nor can it ever become religious or governed
by any religious dogma. If this History list becomes an argument for religious
involvement in AA, then it has failed in its watchword.

I don't care to debate or discuss it. I just want us to realize this forum is
not one which should be used to manipulate historical facts in an attempt to
justify religious teachings or interference with organized religion, especially
those with fundamental, evangelical agendas, in AA.

If anything, a factual study of AA should show the reasons and necessity for the
separation of religion from AA.

I want us to be clear about that.

Jon Markle/MA
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling
Dual Diagnosis/COD speciality
HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultations
Raleigh, NC
9/9/82

- - - -

From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Also ... "As a society we must never become so vain as to suppose that we are
authors and inventors of a new religion. We will humbly reflect that every one
of AA's principles has been borrowed from ancient sources." (AA Comes of Age,
page 231 - quoted in As Bill Sees It, page 223).

- - - -

From: "jax760" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

For an alternative perspective to the "Tablemate" see the Akron Pamphlet
"Spiritual Milestones in AA" c. early 1940s.

"FEW, IF ANY, men or women have completely fulfilled the aims of
Alcoholics Anonymous without at least some grasp of the spiritual, or to use
another term in it's broadest sense, religion. True, there have been some who
have managed to keep sober simply by mechanical action. But a preponderance of
evidence points out that until one has some spiritual conviction, and the more
the better, he takes no joy in his sobriety. Too often we hear an AA remark, "I
think this is a wonderful program, but I can't understand the spiritual angle."
To them the religion otherwise know as Alcoholics Anonymous is something
complex, abstract and awesome. They seem to have the impression that religion,
the spiritual life, is something to be enjoyed only by saints the clergy, and
perhaps an occasional highly privileged layman. They cannot conceive that it can
be for the reformed sinner as well. And yet the truth is, the spiritual AA is
there for all of
us to enjoy.

But, asks the alcoholic, where can I find a simple, step-by-step religious
guide? The Ten Commandments give us a set of Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt Nots;
the Twelve Steps of AA give us a program of dynamic action; but what about a
spiritual guide?

Of course the answer is that by following the Ten Commandments and Twelve Steps
to the letter we automatically lead a spiritual life, whether or not we
recognize it."

This pamphlet is still sold at Akron Intergroup.

Attempts to differentiate (by us laymen i.e. AA members) such complex,
multi-dimensional contructs as spirituality and religion or religiousness are
extremely difficult and any attempt at a single or narrow definition of either,
which historically have been and are still today quite broadly defined in
dictionaries,(and by sociologists, pyschologists and everyone else outside 12
step recovery) reflects a limited perspective or perhaps an agenda (spirituality
is good and religion is bad). The majority of people in the USA do not
differentiate between these two wonderful, dynamic and empowering constructs.
Note 1

"In critically judging of the value of religious phenomena, it is very important
to insist on the distinction between religion as an individual personal
function, and religion as an institutional, corporate, or tribal product."
William James - VRE

James called it "religion as an individual personal function", the Oxford Group
called it "personal religion", we in AA call it "spirituality". In each instance
we are talking about the same thing.........a personal religious experience, or
if you prefer a spiritual experience. As "a way of life" they are indeed one in
the same.

Those interested may wish to read Bill's "Three Talks to The Medical Societies"
(P-6) and see how Bill described the AA program of recovery to educated men of
medicine and science.

Bill used the words spiritual and religious interchangeably in most of his
writings (see p.569 AA) and never once have I read anything from Bill that said
"AA is Spiritual not Religious" (he was way too smart to engage in such
controvery) in fact I have found dozens of citeable instances of Bill describing
"the work" as "religious" as well as dozens of instances of him describing the
program or its actions as "spiritual." It should be no surprise to anyone that
drunks have always had trouble with anything "religious" including the word or
idea. Thus AA adpated the word and idea "spiritual" and
"spirituality" to suit the needs of the society.

"The basic principles of A.A., as they are known today, were borrowed mainly
from the fields of religion and medicine, though some ideas upon which success
finally depended were the result of noting the behaviors and needs of the
Fellowship itself." – p. 16 12&12

Whether or not AA is spiritual, religious, both or neither is best left to the
outside experts. Just because AA or its members, some or all, majority or
minority, say ...xyz.... doesn't make it so.

Has anyone seen or would like to comment on the many (I believe eight) major
legal cases involving the establishment clause that have been tried in the last
twenty five years in either state supreme or federal circuit appeals courts? How
does the legal system in the USA define AA?

IN THE MATTER OF DAVID GRIFFIN, APPELLANT, v.
THOMAS A. COUGHLIN III, AS COMMISSIONER OF THE
NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONAL
SERVICES, ET AL. RESPONDENTS. 1996 N.Y. Int. 137.
June 11, 1996. No. 73 [1996 NY Int. 137].
Decided June 11, 1996

"On this appeal we hold that, under the Establishment Clause of the United
States Constitution's First Amendment, an atheist or agnostic inmate may not be
deprived of eligibility for expanded family visitation privileges for refusing
to participate in the sole alcohol and drug addiction program at his State
correctional facility when the program necessarily entails mandatory attendance
at and participation in a curriculum which adopts in major part the
religious-oriented practices and precepts of Alcoholics Anonymous (hereinafter
A.A.).

In December of 1996, the U. S. Supreme Court turned down, without comment, New
York's appeal to have the Griffin v Coughlin ruling overturned.

In several of these landmark cases attempts to differentiate
"spiritual" from "religious" were rejected by the courts.

With that I have ceased fighting anyone or anything and have resigned from the
debating society.

BTW, for the record, I have no problem with either religion or spirituality.
Identify and don't compare?

God Bless

Note 1
Conceptualizing Religion and Spirituality: Points of Commonality, Points of
Departure Peter C. Hill, Kenneth I. Pargament, Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Michael E.
McCullough, James P. Swyers, David B. Larson & Brian J. Zinnbauer
Journal for the Theory of Social Behavior 30:1 0021-8308

- - - -

From: Charlie C <route20guy@yahoo.com>
(route20guy at yahoo.com)

I think it would be quite interesting to pursue this discussion in terms of
what spiritual and religious notions were in the the 1930s, and what they are
today. My impression from their biographies is that while both Dr. Bob and Bill
were rather eclectic browsers in spiritual matters, e.g. their interest in Ouija
boards, they were both also both respectful of and knowledgeable about the
primary organized religion of their day, Christianity..

Things are different today of course, there are many spiritual and religious
"options" as it were that were not so present in the 1930s. I would like to see
more of that same respect, and lack of prejudice (see p49 in the Big Book for
example) in AA today that Bill and Bob had. In my 21 years of sobriety I have
heard an unpleasant amount of careless, ignorant and disrespectful talk against
"organized religion."

If nothing else it's unseemly considering that the vast majority of our
meetings take place in buildings that we have free access to for extraordinarily
nominal "rents," all due to the charitable spiritual impulse of those religious
people that many in AA seem to feel so superior towards.

Glib talk of being "spiritual" not "religious" is easy to indulge in, but I
haven't noticed it translating into buildings being constructed and maintained
so that the spiritual impulse can be housed, and groups of drunks can have a
room to meet in.

0 -1 0 0
6208 longjohnunderwear
Sobriety Under the Sun Sobriety Under the Sun 1/2/2010 11:57:00 PM

Sobriety Under the Sun is an English-speaking
AA convention held each winter in Puerto Vallarta
in Mexico .. coming up at the end of January.

For more info see:

http://www.aapvconvention.com/

http://www.rexark.com/collections/sobriety-under-the-sun

0 -1 0 0
6209 Geoff
Information on Jack Alexander''s life Information on Jack Alexander''s life 1/4/2010 9:59:00 PM

Apologies if this has been covered, but I can't
find it anywhere.

Do we know anything about the life of Jack
Alexander before his involvement with AA?

Does anyone have any resources or anything that
might help me find some background information
on his bio etc?

many thanks
Geoff

0 -1 0 0
6210 diazeztone
List of all Hazelden books on alcoholism List of all Hazelden books on alcoholism 1/5/2010 1:06:00 AM

Hazelden books on alcoholism:

Has anyone ever published, studied, talked about,
or written about every book Hazelden has ever
published (including those out of print)?

I.e., a complete bibliography of Hazelden books
on alcoholism and recovery.

LD Pierce 06 15 1995

Hope all had merry christmas and happy new year!
Another Sober one for me!!
www.aabibliography.com

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

Or perhaps the more modest project of assembling
a complete list of all the books which Hazelden
published on the history of A.A., back when they
were still publishing books on A.A. history.

0 -1 0 0
6211 Charlie C
life of jack alexander life of jack alexander 1/7/2010 11:47:00 AM

Re Jack Alexander, I see his obit in the NY Times for 9/20/75. It is a brief
piece, mentioning that he was from St. Louis, had worked for the St. Louis Star
and Post-Dispatch before joining the Daily News in NYC in 1930. He then moved to
the New Yorker, and then the Saturday Evening Post, from which he retired as a
senior editor in 1964. He died 9/19/75 in St. Louis, and was survived by his
widow.

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

0 -1 0 0
6212 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Information on Jack Alexander''s life Information on Jack Alexander''s life 1/6/2010 12:24:00 PM

Jack Alexander retired to Florida and died there.
There are two different dates given for his death
date: September 19 1975 and September 17 1975.

Someone who knows how to use the obits may be
able to find more from his obit.

0 -1 0 0
6213 Ernest Kurtz
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/7/2010 9:56:00 PM

According to one common story, Alexander had
just finished a piece "exposing" the mob -- in
Philadelphia? Anyway, according to this story,
when he first heard of AA he thought that it,
too, had to be some kind of "racket," so he set
out to expose it.

I'll appreciate verification of this story if
anyone can come up with it, or its disproof.

ernie kurtz

0 -1 0 0
6214 schaberg43
Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/11/2010 11:00:00 AM

In our area, there is a "rule" that you must
have at least ninety days (or even six months)
of sobriety before you can "run" a meeting.
In addition, several Step groups require a
year (or even two) before someone is given
"the chair."

I have been asked if there is any foundation
for this "rule" in AA's early history.

I don't know of any concrete basis for this
in the 1930s, but perhaps someone on this list
would have some knowledge of such an early
'tradition' or rule.

I also suspect that such a 'rule' might well
have been propagated in the 'AA Guideline'
binders (or whatever they were called) that
I know were sent out by GSO during the 1940s.

Can anyone help me with some more detailed
background for this "rule"?

Best,

Old Bill

0 -1 0 0
6215 Stockholm Fellowship
Re: minority opinion question minority opinion question 1/7/2010 8:10:00 AM

From Jay G. in Stockholm, Bob McK., and
Dave "inkman83"

- - - -

From: Jay G. (Stockholm)
<stockholmfellowship@gmail.com>
(stockholmfellowship at gmail.com)

In regard to the Minority opinion question, yes there are times where the
majority is swayed by a minority opinion.

I remember one time at the District level in Los Angeles there was an idea I had
for a PI event. Initially everyone really liked the idea and the first vote was
nearly unanimous in favor. During the minority opinion a concern was raised
about cost and some who voted for the idea indicated they wanted to re-vote. In
the re-vote the idea failed overwhelmingly, with encouragement to come back with
more details about the cost at a future meeting.

And at the Regional level in Europe there have been times when the 2/3's
threshold for passing something was met, but after the minority opinion a
re-vote was requested and the motion fell just a few votes under the threshold.

So sometimes the minority opinion brings up something that causes a lot of
people to rethink their vote, other times just a few people. But it does sway.
In fact, in my experience, I have only seen the minority opinion to have much of
an effect at the District, Region or Area levels. In my experience, in the
group's conscience at the homegroup level, there tends to be such a uniformity
that the minority opinion rarely causes a budge.

Regarding is you must always ask for the minority opinion, that varies. Some do
it every time, some don't if the motion didn't pass in the first place.

In fellowship,
Jay G.
Stockholm, Sweden

- - - -

From: "Bob McK." <bobnotgod2@att.net>
(bobnotgod2 at att.net)

The Conference Archives Committee, a secondary committee, came into being in
1998 through just such a process. It was just shy of the required 2/3 vote
for approval. Impassioned pleas by the non-prevailing side led to a
reconsideration. Most notable in the restored debate was the statement by
David E. from Hawaii who said, "I've been swaying back and forth like a palm
tree on this issue, but I think we ought to give it a chance." The vote was
indeed swayed to over a 2/3 majority and the committee was born.

When chairing any AA or AA-related debate I have always asked for minority
opinion. If nothing else, it offers the losing side an opportunity to vent
their "sour grapes." At one time in the 1998 (or possible '97) Conference
the chair allowed minority opinion after an already-reconsidered vote,
knowing full well that a second motion to reconsider is not allowed.

Furthermore full debate on the original motion may not have occurred because
of a motion calling the question or because some did not express important
issues feeling that their side was certain to prevail without their help.

- - - -

From: "inkman83" <tumbles83@msn.com> (tumbles83 at msn.com)

I was active in The North Florida Area from approximately 1994-2006 and at least
three separate times the minority opinion swayed the majority and the vote was
overturned. After minority opinion is heard the Chair (I believe) asked if
there is someone who voted in the majority who would like to ask for a re-vote,
if that motion is seconded then a vote is taken to determiine if a re-vote will
take place, if that passes then the secretary re-reads the motion and a new vote
is taken (if I recall correctly there is no discussion on a re-vote). I believe
this information can be found by e-mailing the Secretary or the Archivist from
aanorthflorida.org

Hope this helps

Dave

- - - -

The two original messages were from:
"cwojohnwalter" <cwojohnwalter@yahoo.com>
(cwojohnwalter at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010

Is there a recorded precedence in which the
minority opinion was heard and then swayed the
majority opinion enough to change or table the
vote?

I realize that this might happen at the individual
group level often but I am looking for some
documentation of it happening at the Regional or
Higher Level.

I am giving a presentation about the minority
opinion and Concept V and would like to geek it
out as much as possible.

Love and Service - John

And "Is it necessary to ask the floor for
any minority opinion?"

After an issue is debated and all sides of
have been heard and after the vote is taken
and there is a simple or 2/3 majority (whichever
is required) than is it necessary to ask the
floor for the minority to state its opinion if
it so wishes?

Love and Service - John

0 -1 0 0
6216 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/11/2010 1:59:00 PM

Boss Hague: King Hanky-Panky of Jersey
By Jack Alexander
Originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post
on October 26, 1940
Edited by GET NJ, COPYRIGHT 2002

http://www.cityofjerseycity.org/hague/kinghankypanky/index.shtml

The Honorable Frank Hague, the perpetual mayor of Jersey City, is perhaps
the most eminent mugg in the United States. Hague was a mugg when he was
expelled from the sixth grade at thirteen as a truant and dullard, and be was
a mugg when he started learning politics the bare-knuckles way in the tough
Horseshoe district of Jersey City in the 1890's. He was still a mugg when
he was elected mayor of that dreary human hive in 1917, in which capacity
he has held the center of the stage ever since with the grim determination
of a bad violinist. Hague will probably he known to history as a strong
character who, despite all temptations to belong to other classifications,
loyally remained a mugg to the end. This is a remarkable achievement when you
analyze it, for Hanky-Panky, as his admirers sometimes call him, has walked
with the great and good, and their only noticeable effect on him has been
to give him a taste for expensive haberdashery. At heart and in practice, he
is a strong-arm man today, tricked out by a clever tailor to look like a
statesman.
As a wood carver fashions puppets, Hague has created governors, United
States senators, and judges of high and low degree. He has been backslapped
cordially by the President and by men who wanted to be President. He has
bossed the state of New Jersey almost as long as he has ruled Jersey City. He
has mingled intimately with leaders of medicine and the clergy and, in a
famous civil-liberties case, was firmly kneaded and processed by the august
Supreme Court of the United States. He is listed in Who's Who in America and,
as vice-chairman of the Democratic National Committee, he is a leader in
the Party of Humanity.
From time to time, in his twenty-three years as mayor, he has enjoyed the
investigative attentions of committees sent by the United States Senate and
the New Jersey legislature and of agents of the Justice and Treasury
departments. He has been a frequent guest at the baronial Duke Farms in
Somerville, New Jersey, and he has dandled a teacup in the parlor of Mrs E. T.
Stotesbury, the widow of a famous Morgan partner. Yet, in spite of all these
softening influences, he persists in saying, "I have went," and in using
singular subjects with plural verbs, and vice versa. In conversation he bellows
oracularly and jabs a long finger into his listener's clavicle to
emphasize his points, most of which boil down to his favorite argumentative
phrase,
"You know I'm right about that!" His language, when he is aroused, is
that of the gin mill. He rules his city by the nightstick and the state by
crass political barter. He is loud and vulgar and given to public displays of
phony piety during which his enemies are dismissed as "Red," or worse.
At sixty-four, he is still erect and muscular, and he is not above
physically assaulting a quailing civil employee whom he has called on the
carpet.
None dares to hit back, for fear of being harassed by Hague's police or
being held up to public disgrace in some devious way.
A legislative committee once determined that during a seven-year period
when Hague's salary, admittedly his only source of income, totaled $56,000,
he
purchased real estate and other property for a total outlay of nearly
$400,000. This was done through dummies, and payment was made in cash. Hague
has always shied from bank accounts. Although his salary as mayor is only
$8000, has never exceeded $8500 and has been as low as $6520, Hague lives like
a millionaire. He keeps a fourteen-room duplex apartment in Jersey City
and a suite in a plushy Manhattan hotel. He owns a palatial summer home in
Deal, New Jersey, for which he paid $125,120 - in cash - and he gambles
regularly on the horse races. Before the present war began he went to Europe
every year, traveling in the royal suites of the best liners. Now he spends
more time in Florida and at Saratoga Springs, where he flashes a bank roll,
held together by a wide rubber hand, which always contains a few $1000
notes, a denomination of which Hague is childishly fond. Hague's public
squanderings have brought Jersey City's municipal finances to a dangerous
pass.
Wholly dominated by Hague, Jersey City is the worst mess of unpunished civic
corruption in the forty-eight states.

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator: here is a chronological
list of Jack Alexander's articles from

http://www.philsp.com/homeville/FMI/d19.htm#A956

ALEXANDER, JACK (stories)
The Third Party Gets a Rich Uncle (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 3 1938
Missouri Dark Mule (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 8 1938; (about Sen.
Bennett Clark).
The Last Shall Be First (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 14 1939; (about
Joseph Pulitzer).
He Rose from the Rich (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 11, Mar 18 1939; (about
William Bullitt).
Young Man of Manhattan (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 15 1939
Reformer in the Promised Land (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 22 1939; (about
Harold Ickes).
Boss on the Spot (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 26 1939; (about Enoch
Johnson).
All Father’s Chillun Got Heavens (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 18 1939;
(about Father Divine).
Iron Floats to Market (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 23 1939
Border Without Bayonets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 6 1940
Golden Boy; The Story of Jimmy Cromwell (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 23
1940
King Hanky-Panky of Jersey (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 26 1940
“Just Call Mr. C.R.” (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 1 1941
Alcoholics Anonymous (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 1 1941
Nervous Ice (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 19 1941
Buyer No. 1 (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 14 1941
The Duke of Chicago (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 19 1941
The World’s Greatest Newspaper (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 26 1941
Cellini to Hearst to Klotz (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 1 1941
Everybody’s Business (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 26 1942; A great library
can house romance as well as books.
Ungovernable Governor (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 23 1943
Cover Man (Norman Rockwell) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 13 1943
The Next Offensive in Lisbon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 6 1943
Panhandle Puck (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jan 1 1944
They Sparked the Carrier Revolution (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 16 1944
Mugwump Senator (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 2 1946
Rip-Roaring Baillie (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jun 1, Jun 8 1946
The Cities of America - Raleigh (30 of a series) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Apr 12 1947
The Senate’s Remarkable Upstart (Joe McCarthy) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post
Aug 9 1947
The Dagwood and Blondie Man (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 10 1948; about
Chic Young.
What Does Walter Reuther Want? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 21 1948
Stormy New Boss of the Pentagon (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 30 1949
The Drunkard’s Best Friend (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Apr 1 1950; Alcoholics
Anonymous.
The Ordeal of Judge Medina (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 12 1950
What a President They Picked (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Feb 24 1951
They “Doctor” One Another (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 6 1952
The Amazing Story of Walt Disney (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Oct 31, Nov 7
1953
The Restaurants That Nickels Built (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Dec 11, Dec 18
1954
Death Is My Cellmate (Aaron Turner) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Mar 2 1957
The Bank That Has No Secrets (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 30 1957
Mr. Unpredictable (Foster Furcolo) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Aug 9 1958
The Cop with the Criminal Brother (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 7 1959
What Happened to Judge Crater? (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Sep 10 1960
Dreamers on the Payroll (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Nov 19 1960
Sunny But Somber Island (Corsica) (ar) The Saturday Evening Post Jul 28 1962

- - - -

Message #6213 from Ernest Kurtz
<kurtzern@umich.edu>
(kurtzern at umich.edu)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6213

According to one common story, Alexander had
just finished a piece "exposing" the mob -- in
Philadelphia? Anyway, according to this story,
when he first heard of AA he thought that it,
too, had to be some kind of "racket," so he set
out to expose it.

I'll appreciate verification of this story if
anyone can come up with it, or its disproof.

ernie kurtz

0 -1 0 0
6217 Ernest Kurtz
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/11/2010 8:58:00 PM

Bailey, Glenn -- you guys are really marvelous. Thank you very much.
Now I wonder whether the whole story of AA and Jack Alexander has been
collected and published anywhere? I recall some Akron mentions of
Alexander in the early correspondence. Take it away, you young sprites!

Thanks again.

ernie kurtz


On Jan 11, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Baileygc23@aol.com wrote:

> Boss Hague: King Hanky-Panky of Jersey
> By Jack Alexander
> Originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post
> on October 26, 1940
> Edited by GET NJ, COPYRIGHT 2002
>
> http://www.cityofjerseycity.org/hague/kinghankypanky/index.shtml
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
6218 Charles Knapp
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/12/2010 4:09:00 PM

From brucec55 and Charles Knapp

- - - -

From: Bruce <brucec55@sbcglobal.net> (
brucec55 at sbcglobal.net)

The Feb./March 2008 issue of Box 459 has a two
page article on A.A. and Jack Alexander. I do
not know who wrote it but the staff at GSO may
know.

Bruce



COPY OF THE ARTICLE ON JACK ALEXANDER:

"Jack Alexander Gave A.A. Its First Big Boost"
Box 4-5-9, February/March 2008

As the 1941 year began, Alcoholics Anonymous had about
2,000 members, many in large cities but also some in
small towns and other isolated places. A 1939 national
magazine article had attracted several hundred new
members, and newspaper articles in Cleveland and a few
other places had brought positive results. But for most of
North America, A.A. was still unknown and alcoholics
were dying without knowing that a new way of recovery
had been discovered and was working.

All of that, however, was about to change dramatically.
In less than a year, A.A. would suddenly triple its membership
and be well on the way to becoming a national
institution.

The man who played a key role in this lightning change
was Jack Alexander, a 38-year-old writer for The Saturday
Evening Post, which, with more than 3 million
circulation, was the leading family magazine in the
United States. The article he wrote about A.A. for the March 1,
1941 edition of the magazine -- simply titled "Alcoholics
Anonymous " -- brought in 7,000 inquiries and became
the high point of his illustrious career. The article apparently led
other publications to offer similar reports of the
Fellowship's work, launching A.A. on a publicity roll that
lasted for years.

Alexander's article is still circulating today as a pamphlet
issued by A.A. World Services, with the title "The Jack
Alexander Article about A.A." Though it focuses on the
A.A. of 1941, it still provides important information about
alcoholism, how the Fellowship started, and what was
working so well for those whom we would now call A.A.
pioneers. The article has also been praised as an excellent
example of good organization and writing that could be a
model for journalism students. (The late Maurice Z., an
A.A. member and also a highly successful magazine writer
and biographer, told an A.A. session at the 1985
International Convention in Montreal that he had been
impressed by the article back in 1941, long before he felt
his own need to embrace the program it described!)

How did this fortunate publicity come about? What
inspired it and who was responsible for bringing the idea
to the attention of the Post's editors and nursing the story
through to acceptance and completion?

The account of A.A.'s famous appearance in The
Saturday Evening Post is the kind of story that gives some
A.A. members goose bumps, because they see it as the
sure work of Higher Power. Others would just call it a
chain of coincidences that worked out favorably for the
Fellowship. Whatever the case, its publication in 1941 was
a bombshell breakthrough for A.A. at a critical time.

The process actually started in February 1940, when
Jim B., one of the A.A. pioneers in New York City, moved
to Philadelphia, the headquarters city of The Saturday
Evening Post. Jim started an A.A. group in the city and,
through a chance meeting at a bookstore, attracted the
interest of Dr. A. Wiese Hammer, who with colleague Dr.
C. Dudley Saul, became an enthusiastic A.A. advocate. Dr.
Hammer just happened to be a close friend of Curtis Bok,
owner of The Saturday Evening Post. After hearing Dr.
Hammer's strong endorsement of A.A., Bok passed along
to his editors a suggestion that they consider an article
about the Fellowship. The suggestion landed on the desk
of Jack Alexander, one of the Post's star reporters.

Alexander was a seasoned writer who (according to
Bill W.) had just covered some rackets in New Jersey. (This
gave rise to an untrue belief that he thought A.A. might
also be a racket.) Born in St. Louis, he had worked for
newspapers and The New Yorker before joining the Post.
Alexander deserves much credit for probing deeply into a
struggling society that scarcely impressed him as he started
his research. Though assigned to do the story by his
superiors, he could have made a superficial review of A.A.
activity in New York City and then abandoned the project
as "not having much merit." Indeed, he would write four
years later that he was highly skeptical following his first
contact with four members of A.A. who called at his
apartment one afternoon. "They spun yarns about their
horrendous drinking misadventures," he wrote. "Their
stories sounded spurious, and after the visitors had left, I
had a strong suspicion that my leg was being pulled. They
had behaved like a bunch of actors sent out by some
Broadway casting agency."

But Alexander was too much the professional to give
up based on one unsatisfactory interview session. The
next morning, he met Bill W. at A.A.'s tiny Vesey Street
general service offices in downtown Manhattan. They hit
it off immediately. Alexander described Bill as "a very disarming
guy and an expert at indoctrinating the stranger
into the psychology, psychiatry, physiology, pharmacology
and folklore of alcoholism. He spent the good part of a
couple of days telling me what it was all about. It was an
interesting experience, but at the end of it my fingers
were still crossed. I knew I had the makings of a readable
report but, unfortunately, I didn't quite believe in it and
told Bill so."

At this point, Alexander could have shelved the assign-
ment for later consideration or dropped it altogether. But Bill
W. was determined not to let that happen. He dropped
everything and persuaded Alexander to investigate A.A.
in other cities, especially Akron and Cleveland. As Bill recalled
later, "Working early and late, [Jack] spent a whole month
with us. Dr. Bob and I and the elders of the early groups at
Akron, New York, Cleveland, Philadelphia, and Chicago
spent uncounted hours with him. When he could feel A.A.
in the very marrow of his bones, he proceeded to write
the piece that rocked drunks and their families all over the
nation."

Alexander recalled that A.A. in those cities had impressed him
mightily. "The real clincher came, though, in St. Louis, which
is my home town," he remembered. "Here I met a number of my
own friends who were A.A.s, and the last remnants of skepticism
vanished. Once rollicking rumpots, they were now
sober. It didn't seem possible, but there it was."

Now a firm believer in A.A., Alexander finished the
article and sent it to Bill and Dr. Bob for review. They
suggested only minor changes, though the correspondence
between Bill and Jack reveals that Bill wanted no mention
of the Oxford Group, a fellowship which had given A.A. its
fundamental principles but after 1936 had begun falling
fast in the public favor. Alexander said his editors felt the
story required some mention of the Oxford Group, but he
minimized it.

Then the Post made a request that could have sunk the
project. The editors wanted photos to illustrate the article
and this, Bill thought, would violate the Society's anonymity.
But when the editors said the article wouldn't be published
without photos, Bill agonized for a moment and
then quickly decided the opportunity was too important to
pass up. Thus one photo in Alexander's article showed Bill
and seven others grouped in the old 24th Street Clubhouse
in Manhattan, though the cutline carries no names. The
lead photo, also unidentified, depicted a drunk using a
towel to study his hand while taking a drink, and a second
photo showed a man on a hospital bed being visited by
three A.A. members. Another photo showed a person
being carried into the hospital on a stretcher.

Published on March 1, 1941, the Alexander piece
brought a response that almost overwhelmed the
resources at the small Vesey Street office. The Post
forwarded to A.A. thousands of letters pouring in from
across North America. Volunteers had to be called
in to answer the letters, while some were sent to A.A.
members and groups in their places of origin. And since
A.A. still had very little literature of its own, the article
served as an information piece for prospective A.A.
members. In Toledo, Ohio, for example, the members
gave a newcomer named Garth M. several dollars and
sent him out to buy up copies around the city (the
price was then five cents per copy). These then became
part of the group's literature for other newcomers.

Nine years later Alexander penned another Post article
about A.A. titled "The Drunkard's Best Friend."
Though lacking the dramatic impact of the earlier story, it
effectively detailed what A.A. had become and promised
for the future -- a promise that has been fulfilled many
times over. By this time, A.A. had 96,000 members and
was rapidly spreading to countries around the world.

Jack Alexander remained a friend of A.A. throughout
his life, and even served as a nonalcoholic (Class A) trustee
on the A.A. General Service Board from 1951 until 1956. He
was also said to have added "the final editorial touch" to
Bill's manuscript for Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,
first published in 1952. Alexander became a senior editor
at the Post, and in a special tribute to him at his retirement
in 1961, the Post cited the 1941 Alcoholics Anonymous
piece as his most famous article for the magazine.

In failing health, Jack Alexander and his wife Anita
retired to Florida, where he died on September 17, 1975.
Bill W. had passed away almost five years earlier, so
there was no special tribute for Jack of the kind Bill had
written for other early friends of A.A. But from the Big
Meeting in the Sky, Bill might have praised Jack as a man
who gave us a "ten strike" and with his words virtually
saved the lives of thousands. Even without Jack's wonderful
article, A.A. would have survived and achieved further
growth. But Jack was there at the right time with the right
message for his times. Without Jack's persistence and
strong belief in A.A., many could have gone to their graves
without knowing that a new way of recovery had been discovered
and was working. Bill W. and the other A.A. pioneers
knew that, and they never lost their gratitude for the
star reporter who at first thought his leg was being pulled.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>
(cpknapp at yahoo.com)

In the Feb/Mar 2008 Box 459 is an article
about Jack Alexander and it touches on this
story about the Jersey rackets.

Hope this helps
Charles

- - - -

Original message #6216 from <Baileygc23@aol.com>
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Boss Hague: King Hanky-Panky of Jersey
By Jack Alexander

Originally appeared in The Saturday Evening Post
on October 26, 1940
Edited by GET NJ, COPYRIGHT 2002

http://www.cityofjerseycity.org/hague/kinghankypanky/index.shtml

The Honorable Frank Hague, the perpetual mayor of Jersey City, is perhaps
the most eminent mugg in the United States. Hague was a mugg when he was
expelled from the sixth grade at thirteen as a truant and dullard, and be was
a mugg when he started learning politics the bare-knuckles way in the tough
Horseshoe district of Jersey City in the 1890's. He was still a mugg when
he was elected mayor of that dreary human hive in 1917, in which capacity
he has held the center of the stage ever since with the grim determination
of a bad violinist. Hague will probably he known to history as a strong
character who, despite all temptations to belong to other classifications,
loyally remained a mugg to the end. This is a remarkable achievement when you
analyze it, for Hanky-Panky, as his admirers sometimes call him, has walked
with the great and good, and their only noticeable effect on him has been
to give him a taste for expensive haberdashery. At heart and in practice, he
is a strong-arm man today, tricked out by a clever tailor to look like a
statesman.

As a wood carver fashions puppets, Hague has created governors, United
States senators, and judges of high and low degree. He has been backslapped
cordially by the President and by men who wanted to be President. He has
bossed the state of New Jersey almost as long as he has ruled Jersey City. He
has mingled intimately with leaders of medicine and the clergy and, in a
famous civil-liberties case, was firmly kneaded and processed by the august
Supreme Court of the United States. He is listed in Who's Who in America and,
as vice-chairman of the Democratic National Committee, he is a leader in
the Party of Humanity.

From time to time, in his twenty-three years as mayor, he has enjoyed the
investigative attentions of committees sent by the United States Senate and
the New Jersey legislature and of agents of the Justice and Treasury
departments. He has been a frequent guest at the baronial Duke Farms in
Somerville, New Jersey, and he has dandled a teacup in the parlor of Mrs E. T.
Stotesbury, the widow of a famous Morgan partner. Yet, in spite of all these
softening influences, he persists in saying, "I have went," and in using
singular subjects with plural verbs, and vice versa. In conversation he bellows
oracularly and jabs a long finger into his listener's clavicle to emphasize his
points, most of which boil down to his favorite argumentative phrase,
"You know I'm right about that!" His language, when he is aroused, is
that of the gin mill. He rules his city by the nightstick and the state by
crass political barter. He is loud and vulgar and given to public displays of
phony piety during which his enemies are dismissed as "Red," or worse.

At sixty-four, he is still erect and muscular, and he is not above
physically assaulting a quailing civil employee whom he has called on the
carpet.
None dares to hit back, for fear of being harassed by Hague's police or
being held up to public disgrace in some devious way.

A legislative committee once determined that during a seven-year period
when Hague's salary, admittedly his only source of income, totaled $56,000,
he purchased real estate and other property for a total outlay of nearly
$400,000. This was done through dummies, and payment was made in cash. Hague
has always shied from bank accounts. Although his salary as mayor is only
$8000, has never exceeded $8500 and has been as low as $6520, Hague lives like
a millionaire. He keeps a fourteen-room duplex apartment in Jersey City
and a suite in a plushy Manhattan hotel. He owns a palatial summer home in
Deal, New Jersey, for which he paid $125,120 - in cash - and he gambles
regularly on the horse races. Before the present war began he went to Europe
every year, traveling in the royal suites of the best liners. Now he spends
more time in Florida and at Saratoga Springs, where he flashes a bank roll,
held together by a wide rubber hand, which always contains a few $1000
notes, a denomination of which Hague is childishly fond. Hague's public
squanderings have brought Jersey City's municipal finances to a dangerous
pass.

Wholly dominated by Hague, Jersey City is the worst mess of unpunished civic
corruption in the forty-eight states.

0 -1 0 0
6219 Stockholm Fellowship
EURYPAA 2010 seeks speaker and participants EURYPAA 2010 seeks speaker and participants 1/12/2010 6:03:00 AM

The 1st Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A.
Convention will be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden,
July 23-25, 2010.

More information at http://www.EURYPAA.org/2010

Spread the word, WE NEED ONE MORE SPEAKER,
AND SOME PANELISTS.

- - - -

The All-Europe Young People in AA Conference Committee is looking for a main
speaker for Saturday night - someone with an obvious connection to Europe, came
to AA age 30 or younger and now has 10+ years continuous sobriety, and a woman
is preferred for diversity (Friday night’s main speaker, Craig F., is male).
Anyone interested, or with a referral, please send an mp3 recording or online
link to info@eurypaa.org

Panel speakers on a variety of topics will also be needed during the conference.
AAs from all over the world, and all lengths of sobriety, if you are interested,
email info@eurypaa.org and tell us a bit about yourself.

EURYPAA does not pay for any speaker travel or accommodations in order to keep
conference costs low. We ask everyone to think of it as an international 12-step
call on Young People in AA.

The EURYPAA meetings will be recorded. The recordings are for our EURYPAA
archives and people would be able to listen to them online for free; we are not
going into the business of selling speaker tapes. It is our hope that young
people throughout Europe will be able to hear the experience, strength and hope
of the EURYPAA speakers and seek out AA in their area, or contact us via our
website to be connected to AA near them.

Hope to see you at EURYPAA 2010!

http://www.EURYPAA.org/2010

0 -1 0 0
6220 tomper87
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/14/2010 6:38:00 PM

Excerpts from article by Jack Alexander in the
May 1945 Grapevine:

The History of How The Article Came To Be

Jack Alexander of SatEvePost Fame Thought A.A.s Were Pulling His Leg
AA Grapevine, May, 1945
by Jack Alexander
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

"It began when the Post asked me to look into A.A. as a possible article
subject. All I knew of alcoholism at the time was that, like most other
non-alcoholics, I had had my hand bitten (and my nose punched) on
numerous occasions by alcoholic pals to whom I had extended a
hand--unwisely, it always seemed afterward. Anyway, I had an
understandable skepticism about the whole business."

"My first contact with actual A.A.s came when a group of four of them
called at my apartment one afternoon. This session was pleasant, but it
didn't help my skepticism any. Each one introduced himself as an
alcoholic who had gone "dry," as the official expression has it. They
were good-looking and well-dressed and, as we sat around drinking
Coca-Cola (which was all they would take), they spun yarns about their
horrendous drinking misadventures. The stories sounded spurious, and
after the visitors had left, I had a strong suspicion that my leg was
being pulled. They had behaved like a bunch of actors sent out by some
Broadway casting agency."

0 -1 0 0
6221 jenny andrews
Re: Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA 1/11/2010 12:17:00 PM

"In one of these (eastern cities) there is
a well-known hospital for the treatment of
alcoholic and drug addiction. ... We are
greatly indebted to the doctor in attendance
there (presumably Towns hospital and Dr.
Silkworth) ... Every few days this doctor
suggests our (AA) approach to one of his
patients.

Understanding our work, he can do this with
an eye to selecting those who are willing and
able to recover on a spiritual basis."

And, by definition, rejecting other patients
whom he believed would not so benefit.

So, as at Akron with Dr Bob's and Sr Ignatia's
screening of patients, success rates were
distorted by already discounting those they
rejected -- even though these other candidates
might have had a desire to stop drinking.

Laurie A.

0 -1 0 0
6222 bbthumpthump
New England Transcendentalism New England Transcendentalism 1/10/2010 4:14:00 PM

Immanuel Kant and the Eighteenth Century
Enlightenment formed the basis for the
nineteenth-century intellectual movement which
we call New England Transcendentalism: Ralph
Waldo Emerson (1803-1882), Henry David Thoreau
(1817-1862), etc.

William James (1842-1910), although not
considered a Transcendentalist, was nevertheless
part of that same New England intellectual
world. He was a student at Harvard University
in Cambridge, Massachusetts, from 1861-1869,
and taught there from 1873-1907. Ralph Waldo
Emerson was his godfather.

Bill Wilson was born and raised in New England;
he read and was influenced by William James. I
can't help but speculate that he was also
influenced by Emerson, Thoreau and other
Transcendentalists in and around New England.

0 -1 0 0
6223 Glenn Chesnut
Re: New England Transcendentalism New England Transcendentalism 1/16/2010 7:18:00 PM

The Transcendentalists were in part rebels
against the doctrines of the Unitarian Church
which dominated Harvard Divinity School at that
time.

Richmond Walker, the second most-published AA
author ("Twenty-Four Hours a Day") was also
brought up within that same New England world.
Students began reading Transcendentalist-
influenced poetry and so on as early as high
school.

Rich did his college degree at Williams College
in Williamstown, Massachusetts, one of the more
distinguished New England universities, where
the faculty were strongly influenced by
Transcendentalist ideas, and by the kind of
nineteenth-century German idealist philosophy
that was produced under the influence of Immanuel
Kant. The students at Williams College were
strongly encouraged to learn German, and many
of the faculty there had studied at German
universities.

http://hindsfoot.org/rwfla1.html

Rich's father was one of the leaders within the
extreme atheistic wing of the Unitarian Church,
wrote a book defending secular humanism, and
was one of the signatories of the original
Humanist Manifesto.

See Message 4715, "New Information on Richmond Walker"
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4715

It is probably not unfair to see Twenty-Four
Hours a Day as Rich's rebellion against his
father, a rejection of his father's atheism
in which Rich turned to a kind of belief in
God that was much more like Ralph Waldo Emerson's
Over-Soul:

Emerson referred to his Higher Power as "that
great nature in which we rest, as the earth
lies in the soft arms of the atmosphere; that
Unity, that Over-soul, within which every man's
particular being is contained and made one with
all other; that common heart" which is the
shared feeling of the entire universe.

Emerson was much influenced by Hinduism and the
thought of India (as were many other members of
the Transcendentalist movement -- they seem to
have known much less about Buddhism).

Emerson's concept of the Over-Soul is very
similar to the Hindu teaching of Advaita Vedanta.
The Sanskrit term Param-atman or "Supreme Soul"
-- which seems to be very closely similar to
Emerson's Over-Soul -- also appears in Hindu
literature in the study of the Vedas. My spirit
is a spark of the divine, and is one with all
other human spirits, and one with the Spirit
of the Universe.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-soul

The God whom Bill Wilson rediscovered at Ebby's
prompting in the story he relates in the Big
Book was Emerson's Over-Soul -- our intuitive
awareness of the divine and infinite while
gazing at the beauties and marvels of nature
-- NOT the Jesus of the frontier revivalists
or the new Bible-thumping Protestant Fundamentalist
movement which had arisen at the beginning of
the twentieth century.

(The Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 was one of the
first attempts by the new Fundamentalist movement
to flex its muscles and try to drive all other
forms of Protestantism out of existence. The
Fundamentalists mounted unrelenting attacks
against both the New England Transcendentalists
and the New England Unitarians, against the
Southern Methodist liberal Christians who
published the Upper Room, against liberal
Presbyterians and American Baptists like Harry
Emerson Fosdick (one of AA's early praisers
and defenders), against New Thought preachers
like Emmet Fox, against existentialist and
neo-orthodox theologians like Reinhold Niebuhr,
etc.)

See the opening pages of the Big Book -- this
is closer to Emerson's Over-Soul than anything
else in American religious history:

p. 1 -- Winchester Cathedral,

p. 10 -- Bill's grandfather's God whom he
sensed while looking at the grandeur of the
starry heavens above, and

p. 12 -- Bill's conversion experience, when the
scales fell from his eyes (see the story of
the Apostle Paul's conversion in Acts 9:18 in
the New Testament), when Bill quit worrying
about religious doctrines, and trying to figure
out who Jesus was, and all that sort of thing,
and just let himself immediate intuit the
presence of the divine in all the things of
the world around him.

And conversely, when you turn instead to
"religion" in the sense of formal religious
doctrines, hundreds of religious rules,
choosing the "correct" holy book and then
literally following every one of its
complicated rules, you may in fact never get
sober at all, and will at best gain a kind
of white-knuckled dryness which is filled
with resentment, continual quarreling and
attacks on other people, and an absence of
any truly deep serenity.

The same thing happens too when you forget
Rule 62, and try to turn AA into an uptight
collection of hundreds of unbreakable rules,
whether based on narrow logic-chopping
interpretations of the Traditions, or
sorting through thousands of Conference
Advisories, or whatever else the source
of all your rules is -- this is legalism,
the attempt to win salvation by works of
the law.

http://hindsfoot.org/pearson.html

Imagine how Henry David Thoreau would react to
some of the excessive legalists whom we
sometimes encounter in modern AA! He would
walk out of the meeting, go outside of town
and build a little hut there in an especially
beautiful spot, plant a little garden, and
start holding his own AA meetings there, a
meeting held for those, like him, who really
wanted to come in contact with the God of Bill
Wilson and Bill Wilson's grandfather.

So yes, a study of the nineteenth-century
New England Transcendentalists is extremely
important to understanding Bill Wilson's New
England background. If you went to high school,
let alone university, in late nineteenth-
century and early twentieth-century New England,
you couldn't escape the influence of Emerson
and Thoreau and the rest.

0 -1 0 0
6224 Henry Cox
Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan 1/6/2010 3:50:00 PM

Chauncey Costello got sober in the early
forty's, and died I believe in 2003 or 2004.
He lived in Pontiac, Michigan.

I believe he was the oldest member still
attending meetings up until 2002.

Any info people have about him in local A.A.
Archives or elsewhere would be helpful.

0 -1 0 0
6225 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/11/2010 3:05:00 PM

From Bailey, James Blair, Jon Markle, Jay Pees,
and Ben Humphreys

- - - -

From: <Baileygc23@aol.com> (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

A.A. Pamphlet: "The A.A. Group ... Where It All Begins"

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-16_theaagroup.pdf

It says in this pamphlet that it is usually six months. But each group can
do as it damn well please and usually does. Groups with a lot of old timers
might have people with thirty or more years sober as leaders and in the
same area people with very little sobriety may be leading or holding offices.
Reading the pamphlet may help one to understand.

- - - -

From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

Old Bill wrote
> In our area, there is a "rule" that you must
> have at least ninety days (or even six months)
> of sobriety before you can "run" a meeting.
> In addition, several Step groups require a
> year (or even two) before someone is given
> "the chair."

In the early years people were not considered members until they had 90
days. Early membership surveys excluded the people with less than 90 days.

Jim

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>
(serenitylodge at mac.com)

My home group also had such guidelines. For which, having visited less
structured groups, I am forever grateful. We also added stipulations that the
member had to be a home group member, be sponsored by a home group member and
before leading a step study, have had experience working that step with the
recommendation of their sponsor.

Of course, there were plenty of other "servant" or 12th step duties that one
could be involved in early on, that make much more sense for a newcomer than
leading a meeting. Such as helping to set up, make coffee, ash trays (back in
the day), mopping up . . . etc.

My understanding is that such guidelines are independent of AA as a whole, each
group being autonomous in these matters.

- - - -

From: Jay Pees <racewayjay@gmail.com>
(racewayjay at gmail.com)

In my home group we leave it up to the member's sponsor and prefer that the
sponsor be with the sponsee for his first couple times chairing. Some
groups use six months and some do it the same as my home group. "Each group
should remain autonomous."

- - - -

From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>
(blhump272 at sctv.coop)

Read the pamphlet "The AA Group." This is a good guideline for such
questions. It is up to the group to decide guidelines. There really
are no "rules" per se.

Ben H.

0 -1 0 0
6226 BobR
Re: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan 1/16/2010 8:44:00 PM

Chauncey was one of the speakers at the
-- believe it or not -- young people's panel
at the 2005 International convention. I think
one of the young people was 16 with 4 years
sobriety and he had something like 61.

0 -1 0 0
6227 ricktompkins
Re: Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA Recovery rates: prescreening was common in early AA 1/16/2010 6:22:00 PM

Thanks Laurie,

Knickerbocker Hospital in NYC hired Dr. Silkworth around 1940 and your
un-sourced quote could very well be describing the newly-formed Alcoholic
Ward of that hospital.

Someone else here at 'aahistorylovers' has more details that can come from
Dale Mitchell's biography of him (I have it somewhere but can't find it
right now to give you more info).

Knickerbocker cost much less than Towns' rates, and Dr. Silkworth effected a
partnership with the AAs of NYC for their nonstop visits there.

On a lighter note, in case you've ever heard of a place named "Dusty's
Tavern" it refers to the name of the ward's Day Room.

And in Akron, St. Thomas Hospital established an alcohol treatment ward
under Dr. Bob's direction with very much the same arrangements as
Knickerbocker (but with the added blessing of Sister Ignatia's efforts). I
don't know how Akron City Hospital handled drunks after the first few years
of our 'AA Method' post-1939.

Lower costs, higher patients' responsibility (and commitment) for their own
recovery, and substantial involvement from AA volunteers seemed to be the
successful model that worked well for the many prospects who were placed
into hospitals first before coming to AA in the early days of our
Fellowship.

The Big Book speaks about pre-screening of prospects but in the different,
larger term of 'qualifying' the newcomers on whether or not they were ready
for surrender and recovery.

Silkworth wrote it early on and best, in my opinion, that "those who came to
scoff remained to pray."

Rick, Illinois

0 -1 0 0
6228 Steven Harris
Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking 1/14/2010 2:29:00 PM

Could someone explain in more detail what is
meant on p. 58 of the Big Book when it refers
to people "who suffer from grave emotional and
mental disorders," and when it refers on p. 62
of the Big Book to "self-delusion"?

What kind of personality disorders, delusionary
disorders, and so on, is the Big Book talking
about?

0 -1 0 0
6229 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking 1/16/2010 11:17:00 PM

As I understand it, the question you are asking is, what were they
talking about, in terms of modern psychological terminology, when they
referred on p. 58 of the Big Book to people "who suffer from grave
emotional and mental disorders," and when they referred on p. 62 of
the Big Book to "self-delusion"?

This basic question has been asked a number of times over the years in
the AAHistoryLovers, in various kinds of ways, most recently in
Message #6195

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6195

And so far, nobody has ever written a message back giving any
satisfactory answer.

Let me try to give you a different kind of answer, however. There were
three basic models of alcoholism treatment in the early days, which had
extremely high success rates, and which were positively disposed
towards AA.

1. Sister Ignatia's treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron.
They had a psychiatrist on staff, and when an alcoholic came in who
needed psychiatric help in addition to guidance in working the steps,
they sent that person to the hospital psychiatrist. There is a chapter on
her program in Bill Swegan's book:
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

2. The Lackland Model developed by A.A. member Bill Swegen and
famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West (later copied by
Captain Joseph Zuska and A.A. member Commander Richard Jewell
for their Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach, with equal
success).
http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html
In this treatment method, leadership of the treatment was shared
between a good psychiatrist and an A.A. member with a lot of quality
time in the program. Bill Swegan reports that only a certain percentage
of the alcoholics whom they treated actually had severe psychiatric
problems, and that usually the only people who could actually profit
from psychiatric help were those who were a little better educated and
more aware of their own emotions. If the alcoholic's psychiatric
problems were crippling and could not be treated well enough to
restore that person to active duty in the Air Force, the person was
denied treatment for his alcoholism and discharged from the Air Force.

3. The Minnesota Model also tried to combine psychological help and
A.A. participation, starting around 1954 at Willmar State Hospital in
Minnesota, with great success. In the early 1960's, Hazelden also
began using this method, also with great success.
But then in 1966, Lynn C., who had continued to insist that Hazelden's
treatment regimen remain "pure A.A.," finally left the center, and the
mental health professionals came to strongly dominate Hazelden from
that point on. The philosophy became one of treating "chemical
dependency" using many different disciplines and treatment modalities.
For myself, I'm not sure that the present Hazelden program could still
be termed the classic "Minnesota Model" in any kind of way.
See http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html and William L. White, Slaying the
Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America
(Bloomington, Illinois: Chestnut Health Systems and Lighthouse
Institute, 1998).
But it is certainly clear that the combination of good A.A.,
together with good psychological help for the small percentage
who need it, can be a very powerful and successful combination
in the treating of alcoholism and drug addiction.

- - - -

The conclusion I think we can draw, is that the three most successful
treatment programs which were developed during the early period of
AA history, combined total immersion into the AA fellowship, along
with psychiatric care for the small percentage who needed it. Having
even fairly severe psychological or mental problems was hardly ever
regarded as an automatic indication that one would never ever be able
to work the AA program or stay sober using the twelve steps.

In my own experience, I have seen people get sober and stay sober
who were severely schizophrenic (I remember a woman in a meeting I
used to attend who heard one of the voices in her head telling her one
day to bite off one of her own fingers, so she did it -- but she eventually
got sober, and stayed sober, and had a fair amount of serenity most of
the time). Also numerous people who were deeply bipolar. A young
woman with Down's syndrome. I used to sponsor a person with
ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). Borderline
Personality Disorder.

So if you have an alcohol or drug program AND you also have severe
psychological problems, DO NOT give up hope and fall into despair,
and start saying to yourself, "Oh, I will never ever be able get clean and
sober."

Instead, (a) start attending AA meetings and working the program, and
(b) get a good psychotherapist or psychologist or psychiatrist and let
that person help you too. Throughout AA history, people who have
done that, and done it as honestly as they could, have consistently
found sobriety, a good life, and a considerable amount of happiness.

0 -1 0 0
6230 royslev
Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk Properly identifying Jim who put whiskey into milk 1/16/2010 10:29:00 PM

It seems standard to identify "a friend we
shall call Jim" in pages 35-37 of the Big Book
(in Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism")

with Ralph Furlong, whose story "Another
Prodigal Story" appeared in the first edition
of the Big Book.

But the only link I can see between those two
figures is that in "Another Prodigal Story" the
protagonist drinks an ice cream soda AFTER
drinking heavily simply in order to cover up
the smell of the booze on his breath, while
Jim in "More About Alcoholism" thinks that if
he mixes whiskey in milk, he can drink that
mixture without getting drunk.

That is not the same thing at all. That
certainly does not mean that these two are
the same person.

Chapter 3 "More About Alcoholism" says that
Jim had "inherited a lucrative automobile
agency," lost it through his drinking, but
then got sober for a while, and "began to
work as a salesman for the business he had
lost through drinking" (Big Book p. 35).

"Another Prodigal Story"
http://silkworth.net/bbstories/357.html
says nothing about the author ever owning
an automobile agency, losing it, having
to go back to work there as a salesman,
getting sober in AA, or having a slip and
being committed back to the asylum once
again.

How could this be the same person?

I have checked with several good AA historians
-- Lee C., Mel B., Dick B., Ray G. -- and none
of them know of any other evidence which could
be cited which would link "Jim" in Chapter 3 of
the Big Book with the person who wrote the
story "Another Prodigal Story."

And while we are at it, why is the author
of "Another Prodigal Story" identified as
Ralph Furlong? What is the evidence for that
identification?

Both in my own research, and in talking with
some good AA historians and archivists, I
have not yet discovered any reasons for
identifying "Jim" on pp. 35-37 of the Big
Book with the author of "Another Prodigal
Story," nor have I discovered any reasons why
either of these people should be identified
as a man named Ralph Furlong.

Can anybody come up with any evidence in
support of any of these identifications?

Thanks for your responses.

Roy L. ( class of '78 )

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

This same question has been asked before,
although not nearly as clearly as you have
done it, see Message 2187, date: Sat Feb 12,
2005, from <lghforum@earthlink.net>
(lghforum at earthlink.net)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2187

"But how can you tell that Ralph F. is the
'Jim' who thinks 'he could take whiskey if
only he mixed it with milk!' on page 37 of
the BB 3rd Edition?"

Nobody answered the question when it was
asked back there in 2005, and now Roy L. has
asked it again, so this question is still
crying out for an answer. The answer may be
simple, but what is it?

0 -1 0 0
6231 J. Lobdell
RE: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan 1/16/2010 10:36:00 PM

My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto 2005
and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941? He
was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think, in
Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober
before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober) -- there is in Bristol, Pennsylvania,
Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago
-- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter).
He's the longest sober I've met.

0 -1 0 0
6232 nuevenueve@ymail.com
How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/15/2010 9:28:00 PM

Hello Group:

Searching for some hints of an adequate time
extension to take the twelve steps I've found
some indicators v.gr. in Fr. Pfau's "Out of
the Shadow" one year; in John Batterson's
pamphlet 4 weeks; and also 4 weeks in the next
article from a previous group message:
http://www.aabacktobasics.org/B2BArticles.html

Also, heard about AAs starting their 4th step
after 7 or more sobriety years attending meetings.

Are there in the GSO-AA literature some
approaches/suggestions on an average 12 step
timing?

Is this up to the AA member's spiritual development
and to his/her sponsor? Or, in other words, does
AA have a position/recommendation on such a time
range?

Thank you.

P.S. In the Big Book chapter five there's a
continuity indication between steps 3 and 4:
"Though our decision was vital and crucial step,
it could have little permanent effect unless
at once followed by a strenuous effort to face,
and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which
had been blocking us......"

0 -1 0 0
6233 bbthumpthump
Re: minority opinion question minority opinion question 1/12/2010 12:16:00 AM

In Area 10 (Colorado) we always ask for Minority Opinion. There is hell to pay
if you don't. So, yes it is neccesary to ask for Minority Opinion. We too have
had our votes swayed at the Area. The Chair asks for Minority Opinion, then the
Chair asks if anyone's vote was swayed. If yes, then the Chair asks for a vote
to re-open discussion, then after discussion, we vote again. That vote is final.

- - - -

From: "rvnprit" <rvnprit@hotmail.com>
(rvnprit at hotmail.com)

I had the privilege of observing the minority opinion swaying the majority at
the 2008 General Service Conference. An amended recommendation from the
Conference Public Information Committee to insert the following Questions and
Answers on posthumous anonymity into the pamphlet "Understanding Anonymity" was
intially passed by the Conference by a substantial majority of 93 in favor and
35 opposed:

"Q. In general, what is the feeling of the Fellowship in regards to posthumous
anonymity?

A. In 1988 the General Service Conference recommended that: The 1971 Conference
Advisory Action be reaffirmed: 'A.A. members generally think it unwise to break
the anonymity of a member even after his death, but in each situation the final
decision must rest with the family.'

Q. Why do obituaries sometimes state that the deceased was a member of
Alcoholics Anonymous?

A. There are many reasons why this would occur. Family members and funeral
directors sometimes write the obituaries and are not aware of A.A.'s Traditions.
On the other hand, the deceased person's A.A. membership may have been revealed
due to a conscious decision made beforehand by the A.A. member, or it may have
been made by the family. A.A. members may wish to make their personal wishes
on this matter known to their families ahead of time."

After the minority spoke, in part expressing the difficult position in which
this language would put the grieving family, a motion to reconsider was passed
and after further discussion, the amended recommendation failed on a vote of 7
in favor and 121 opposed. The language was not added to the pamphlet.

This was but one of a number of times I have seen the minority opinion sway a
hasty or mistaken majority. It is a vital part of A.A.'s collective
decision-making with respect for the minority.

In love and service,

Newton P.

0 -1 0 0
6234 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: life of Jack Alexander life of Jack Alexander 1/16/2010 2:59:00 AM

Jack Alexander was one of three brothers, who
were all involved in journalism:

< < Jack Alexander wrote for the New Yorker
< < and the Saturday Evening Post.

< < Roy Alexander was managing editor of Time
< < Magazine from 1949 to 1960.

< < The Rev. Calvert Alexander, S.J., was for
< < 25 years editor of Jesuit Missions.

Time Magazine "Letter From The Publisher:
Jul. 8, 1966" talks about brother Roy:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,835920,00.html#ixzz0chqjigmA

WE take the occasion this week to pay tribute to a man whose name has appeared
on this page for 27 years, and who during that time made an incalculable
contribution to what was printed in the pages of TIME—and thereby to U.S.
journalism. After serving as reporter, writer, senior editor, managing editor
and editor of TIME, Roy Alexander last week, at 67, retired.

His eleven years as managing editor, the key editorial post on TIME, from 1949
to 1960, add up to the longest period anyone has held that demanding position.
He brought to the job an array of talents and interests that humble most men.
His Latin is a bit rusty now, but he used to read the classics in that language
and in Greek as well. He is a serious student of philosophy, theology and
history; he flew airplanes until a few years ago, and still drives sports cars
in the manner of Jimmy Clark. He appreciates an efficient carburetor as much as
a great performance at the opera. His essential commitment is to the pursuit of
knowledge.

Roy Alexander was born in Omaha, graduated from St. Louis University, broke into
journalism on the St. Louis Star, then was a reporter and assistant city editor
on the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. A cover-to-cover reader of TIME (usually in the
bathtub, he once recalled) since its launching in 1923, he came to work for this
magazine in 1939 at a time when one of his many interests turned out to be of
special value. A Stateside marine at the end of World War I, he had maintained
an active interest in military affairs, particularly aviation. For 18 years he
flew with the 110th Observation Squadron of the Missouri National Guard; he was
mustered out, when he moved to New York, as a major and squadron commander. His
experiences in military matters made him eminently fit to edit TIME'S WORLD
BATTLEFRONTS section in World War II. Some of the best and most knowledgeable
writing about that war appeared there, and as a result, TIME became must reading
from the beaches of Peleliu to the desks of the Pentagon.

As managing editor, Roy had a much-admired knack for quick decisions, unimpeded
by any fear of making a mistake. He also had a great rapport and a mutual
confidence with the staff. Accepting cheers from all hands at a staff farewell
party last week, he responded with characteristic warmth, modesty and brevity.
"I think I realize now that I have meant something to all of you," he said. "You
have all meant a great deal more to me."

As Roy ended his service to TIME — now to spend his time largely with his wife,
seven children and 19 grandchildren — his longtime colleague, Editorial Chairman
Henry R. Luce, paid him a tribute to which all of us subscribe: "We are all in
debt to Roy Alexander for his outstanding performance. I salute him as a grand
master of the great game of Who, What, When and Why. As managing editor, he
combined an innate sense of fair play with the clear courage of his own
convictions."

*Two brothers of Roy's made their own mark in journalism. Jack Alexander wrote
for The New Yorker and the Saturday Evening Post; the Rev. Calvert Alexander,
S.J., was for 25 years editor of Jesuit Missions.

0 -1 0 0
6235 Tom Hickcox
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/17/2010 10:06:00 AM

> From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
>(jblair at videotron.ca)
>
> In the early years people were not considered
> members until they had 90 days. Early membership
> surveys excluded the people with less than 90
> days.
>

Jim, these are pretty general assertions covering a wide area.

It is my impression that membership qualifications varied widely and
depended entirely on the group.

Can you back them up with citations and include the time frame they were valid?

Thanks,

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
6236 Michael Oates
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/16/2010 10:28:00 PM

My home group encourages member with thirty days to run for meeting chair when
we hold elections, those who get elected seem to stay sober longer than those
who don't run. We still try to help others achieve sobriety rather than have an
informative and good meeting.

Michael S. Oates
D.O.S. 09-23-1993

- - - -

From: Charlie C <route20guy@yahoo.com>
(route20guy at yahoo.com)

In upstate NY the approach I have seen over the years is to expect that a
person have one year sober before chairing a meeting, or serving as secretary
etc. It is a "rule" occasionally "bent," but is the common group "rule".

0 -1 0 0
6237 J. Lobdell
Re: Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy''s Tavern? Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy''s Tavern? 1/16/2010 10:28:00 PM

Duffy's Tavern? After the radio program?

- - - -

> From: ricktompkins@comcast.net
>
> Knickerbocker cost much less than Towns' rates, and Dr. Silkworth effected a
> partnership with the AAs of NYC for their nonstop visits there.
>
> On a lighter note, in case you've ever heard of a place named "Dusty's
> Tavern" it refers to the name of the ward's Day Room.

0 -1 0 0
6238 bbthumpthump
Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James 1/16/2010 11:26:00 PM

William James's father, Henry James was a
Swedenborgian, which I'm sure influenced young
William James, and in turn Bill Wilson.

Carl Jung was also influenced by Swedenborg,
as were Kant, and of course Lois Wilson and
her family.

0 -1 0 0
6239 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James 1/17/2010 3:07:00 PM

The following article in a Jungian journal is useful for getting an idea of what
Swedenborg's writings were about: his hearing angels speaking to him, his
speaking with the spirits of the dead, his having clairvoyant knowledge of
events many miles away at the very time when they were happening, and so on. In
this article, we can also see the philosopher Kant rejecting Swedenborg's
insistence that we can communicate with spirits, but the psychiatrist Jung
eagerly reading Swedenborg's books to find out more.

This is the world in which Lois Wilson had been brought up, and the world in
which she taught Bill Wilson to live: Bill's frequent attempts to speak with the
spirits of the dead -- in which he felt that he was often quite successful --
did not seem odd at all to a Swedenborgian. And Bill's White Light experience at
Towns Hospital c. Dec 12, 1934 would again have seemed perfectly understandable
to a Swedenborgian.

The important thing is to get rid of the idea that we can make sense of Bill
Wilson and the God of the Big Book in terms of modern Protestant Fundamentalist
cults and televangelists. I am not trying to speak against those religious
groups, simply attempting to make the point that they do not help us at all in
understanding Bill Wilson or early AA. That was not at all the world that Lois
and Bill Wilson lived in.

To put it crudely, for Lois and Bill (at least when Bill was sober), you did not
gain salvation by getting down on your knees and accepting Jesus Christ as your
Lord and Savior (there is nothing in the first 164 pages of the Big Book about
that) -- you gained salvation via visions of White Light, experiences of the
Transcendentalist Over-Soul in the wonders of the starry heavens overhead, and
Swedenborgian conversations with angels who were simply the spirits of human
beings who had once lived upon this earth.

I'm not trying to attack conservative Protestants here, nor (in particular) am I
trying to suggest that we should hold seances at A.A. meetings where we attempt
to converse with the spirits of the dead! I'm just attempting to give an
accurate picture of the actual religious beliefs which Lois and Bill Wilson had.

And maybe help us all to better understand that there are "a variety of
religious experiences" which A.A. members are allowed to draw on, and that we
shouldn't get into the business of saying that one religious approach and one
alone is the ONLY correct way of practicing "real" oldtime A.A.

But anyway, here's the article:

- - - -

Eugene Taylor, "Jung on Swedenborg, Redivivus," Jung History: A Semi-Annual
Publication of the Philemon Foundation, Volume 2, Issue 2. Philemon Foundation,
119 Coulter Avenue, Suite 202, Ardmore, Pennsylvania, 19003 USA

https://philemonfoundation.org/newsletter/volume_2_issue_2/jung_on_swedenborg

[In his autobiography] Memories, Dreams, Reflections, the Swiss psychiatrist
Carl Gustav Jung recounted that his turn toward psychiatry while in medical
school was accompanied by voracious reading in the literature on psychic
phenomena. In particular, he was drawn to Kant's Dreams of a Spirit Seer and the
writing of various eighteenth and nineteenth century authors, such as Passavant,
Du Prel, Eschenmayer, Görres, Kerner, and, he said, Emanuel Swedenborg.

For man in his essence is a spirit, and together with spirits as to his
interiors, wherefore he whose interiors are open to the Lord can speak with
them. -- Emmanuel Swedenborg, Earths in the Universe

.... But at that moment in medical school what psychiatry lacked, Jung thought,
was a dynamic language of interior experience. He was, first of all, intrigued
at the time, he said, by Kant's Dreams of a Spirit-Seer, first published in
1766, four years before Kant's own inaugural dissertation.2 Kant made a radical
separation between the senses and the understanding and then debunked
communication with spirit entities. Sense impressions are all that we can know,
even though they are only impressions of outward things. The interior life of
the ego we cannot know, Kant said, even though this is all that is actually
real. He stated the outlines of his philosophy and then attacked the reigning
metaphysicians of the time, such as Leibniz and Wolff, by focusing on one
particular case, that of Emanuel Swedenborg (1688–1772), eighteenth century
scientist, philosopher, and interpreter of the Christian religious experience.

Swedenborg had spent the first half of his life mastering all the known sciences
of his day. Eventually, he would write the first Swedish algebra, introduce the
calculus to his countrymen, make major modifications on the Swedish hot air
stove, design a flying machine, and anticipate both the nebular hypothesis and
the calculation of longitude and latitude. He also studied with the great
anatomist Boerhaave, learned lens grinding, made his own microscope, and
assembled a physiological encyclopedia, in which he wrote on cerebral
circulation, and identified the Thebecian veins in the heart.

By the time Swedenborg was forty, he had written numerous books on scientific
subjects and been elected a member of the Swedish Academy of Sciences. In his
own personal quest, however, he had begun in mineralogy, geology, mathematics,
and astronomy, and then proceeded to anatomy and physiology, before turning his
attention to sensory and rational psychology, all in search of the soul. When he
reached the limits of rational consciousness, he turned within and began an
examination of his own interior states. In this, he combined techniques of
intensive concentration and breath control with a primitive form of dream
interpretation.

The effect became evident in 1744, when he claimed he experienced an opening of
the internal spiritual sense, and God spoke to him through the angels, saying
that He would dictate to Swedenborg the true internal meaning of the books of
the Bible. Swedenborg began immediately to work on this dispensation and set out
to write what came to be known as the Arcana Colestia, or Heavenly Doctrines. It
took him a dozen volumes of his own writing just to cover the first two books of
the Bible. The project came to an abrupt halt in 1757, however, when Swedenborg
had another vision, this time of a totally transformed Christianity, in which
there was a falling away of the denominations and the arising of the Lord's New
Church, as described by John in Revelations, which would come upon earth.

For the rest of his life, Swedenborg wrote about the new dispensation,
publishing more than thirty volumes. His works were studied throughout Europe
and had a particularly strong influence on the course of French and German
Freemasonry, and occult groups among the intelligentsia variously involved in
mesmerism, esoteric Christianity, Gnosticism, and the Kaballah.3 On his death,
however, instead of a transformed Christianity, a new Christian denomination
called The Church of the New Jerusalem sprang up, with principal centers in
London, Philadelphia, and Boston. To this day the ecclesiastical history of the
New Church places them as a small, conservative Christian denomination with
regular church parishes, weekly Sunday services, ordained ministers, and study
of the King James version of the Bible .... The transcendentalists read
Swedenborg avidly, as did the brothers Henry and William James .... Paralleling
these developments, Swedenborg's ideas permeated the nineteenth century American
scene and became closely allied with spiritualism and mental healing through the
works of such men as Thomas Lake Harris, the utopian socialist, and Andrew
Jackson Davis, the clairvoyant healer.

In any event, during his own later lifetime, after retiring from Parliament, and
from service to the King of Sweden, under whom he had served as the Royal
Assessor of Mines, Swedenborg contented himself with gardening and writing about
the New Jerusalem. As a member of the Swedish aristocracy, he had numerous
encounters with the Royal family and their associates. On several occasions, it
had become known that he alleged he could speak with spirits of the dead, and
was called upon by a friend of the Queen to locate lost articles of significant
value. While he himself tried to keep out of the limelight, Swedenborg drew
national attention to himself when Stockholm broke out in a great fire.
Swedenborg was 200 miles away at the time, but reported on the exact details of
the fire nonetheless to residents of Goteborg, with whom he was staying. When
word came two days later corroborating the details, he was briefly investigated
as somehow being involved in setting the fire. His exoneration, however, caused
unwanted notoriety for his alleged powers.

Eventually, Kant heard these stories and wrote to Swedenborg, but Swedenborg was
too absorbed to answer his letters. Eventually, Kant sent a messenger, who spoke
with Swedenborg and interviewed others. When asked why he did not answer Kant's
letter, Swedenborg announced he would answer him in his next book. But when his
next book came out, however, there was no mention of Kant. We can only imagine
Kant's fury, half Scottish and half German, which might account for the
harshness of his criticisms of Swedenborg in Dreams of a Spirit Seer .... Kant,
in fact, devotes an entire section in Dreams of a Spirit Seer to debunking
Swedenborg's philosophy. In particular, he takes Swedenborg to task for his
absurd descriptions of heaven and hell, the planets and their inhabitants, and
the fantastic impossibility of communication with angels. The angels, Swedenborg
believed, were the souls of departed human beings once alive, who live in Heaven
in the form of their old bodies, and consociate with those whom they have most
loved on earth but who now dwell in heavenly societies, the sum total of which
was the Grand Man.

In a previous report, it was stated that, while we know Jung read Swedenborg's
works at around the same time he was reading these other authors, we also had no
idea which ones.5 Now, due to the investigations of Sonu Shamdasani, we have a
list of the books on Swedenborg that Jung, in the middle of his medical
training, checked out of the Basel Library during 1898.6

.... The first work Jung checked out was The Arcana Coelestia, Swedenborg's
multivolume compendium giving the true internal spiritual meaning of the first
two books of the Bible and the first major work of Swedenborg's visionary era
after the original revelations of 1744. The importance of the Arcana is that,
referring to the opening of the interior spiritual sense, Swedenborg maintains
that the images of the Bible must be read symbolically and metaphorically
according to the level of spiritual self-actualization of the person. The Bible
is fundamentally a map indicating the stages of spiritual consciousness one must
go through to reach the final stage of regeneration. One sees, however, into
one's own interiors to the level of one's ability. To the literalist, for
instance, God created earth and man and woman in seven days. For Swedenborg,
each day of creation is the expression of a different stage of consciousness
that must be mastered in the process of self-realization. The crucifixion of
Jesus and his resurrection is the death of the personal, self-centered ego and
the arising of the spiritual dimension of personality, expressed as the
purification of the soul, which is our link to the Divine while alive and to
heaven upon our death. Revelation is not the end of the physical world, but a
cataclysmic event in consciousness, an ecstatic, nay, mystical awakening in
which the doors of perception are cleansed and we finally see that the natural
is derived from the spiritual, not the other way around, and in this way the
earth has been transformed.

A period of nine months then intervened, during which time we presume Jung was
contemplating the content and meaning of the Arcana. Then in September, 1898, he
checked out Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell. Heaven and Hell is a work that should
be read as Swedenborg's communication on the nature of life after death. More
importantly, however, it is an expanded statement of his claim that "Heaven is
made by the Lord, while hell is created by man out of the misuse of the
capacities of rationality and freedom." This would be a description of the
angels and their Heavenly societies and their relation to the Lord, which is the
Grand Man. This description takes up most of the book, together with a
description of the hells, which come from vanity, self-centeredness, and lust.
We see in this work the iconography of a person's interior, phenomenological
world view, much as Jung would reconstruct the interior world view of his
patients, or ask his clients to reconstruct in their artistic depiction of
states of individuation.

Then, a month later, Jung returned to check out Earths in the Solar System, The
Soul and the Body in their Correlations, and The Delights of Wisdom Concerning
Conjugal Love, all on the same day. Only the general gist of these volumes can
be given here. Earths in the Solar System presents Swedenborg's view that, not
only are there spirits on the after death plane, they also inhabit other planets
besides earth. The rationale for this is threefold. First, because the universe
is bigger than the earth alone (in other words,consciousness is not defined or
even solely made up of the rational waking state), and there is no reason to
presume that we are the only entities out there; second, because nearly all
cultures on earth report such communications, except those inhabiting western
modernist societies; and third, because Swedenborg reported that he was visited
by spirits from these other planets and was just chronicling what he had seen
and heard.

The Soul and the Body and their Correlations is Swedenborg's restatement of his
doctrine of correspondences -- that every aspect of the physical world is
somehow reflected in the life of the soul. Jung perpetually returned to this
linkage with his interest in the mind/body problem, and the personal equation in
science; that is, how we simultaneously can know and experience phenomena, a
question that formed the basis for his later exchange with the physicist
Wolfgang Pauli. The Doctrines Concerning Conjugal Love expresses Swedenborg's
revelation about the spiritual relation of the sexes in the process of
regeneration. Man can only learn to love God through the love he experiences
through others, and again, the essential relation of the opposites emerges. In
addition, one cannot help but notice that this is also the controversial volume
in which Swedenborg, himself an unmarried man with no apparent consort
throughout his life, advocates that it is permissible for a married man to take
on a second partner.

In any event, there is more to be said about the nature of the connections
between Jung and Swedenborg's ideas. It is sufficient here to indicate that new
scholarship in this area is proceeding.

Footnotes
1.F.X. Charet ((1993). Spiritualism and the Foundations of C. G. Jung's
Psychology. Albany: SUNY Press.) has implied that Jung's motivation for reading
this literature had been the recent death of his father, in hopes of
communicating with him from beyond the grave. This might be plausible if Charet
had more evidence from Jung himself on this point, but it seems even less likely
given that Charet's project to link Jung to spiritualism omits a crucial focus
on the process of self-realization, of which spiritist phenomena must be
considered a mere subsidiary and not a goal in and of themselves. Charet has
spiritism as his main focus, with little mention of its relation to the process
of individuation. Rather, supernormal powers are an epiphenomenon in the process
of self-realization and only indicative of one's progress, at least according to
the Yoga texts with which Jung was most familiar. Attachment to them leads to
karmic rebirth in a lower plane, knowing that a higher exists, which is worse,
the text says, than not knowing that there is a higher interior life at all.
2.Kant, Immanuel (1915/1766). Dreams of a Spirit Seer, Illustrated by Dreams of
Metaphysics. Tr. E.F. Goerwitz, ed. By F Sewall. 2nd ed. London: New Church
Press.
3.Gabay, Alfred (2005). The Covert Enlightenment: Eighteenth century
counter-culture and its aftermath. West Chester, PA: Swedenborg Foundation;
Taylor, EI. (1999). Shadow Culture: Psychology and spirituality in America.
Washington, DC: Counterpoint.
4.Passavant, Johann Karl (1821). Untersuchungen über den Lebensmagnetismus und
das Hellsehen. Frankfurt am Main : H. L. Brönner; DuPrel, Karl Ludwig (1970
edition). Das Rätsel des Menschen. Wiesbaden: Löwith; Eschenmayer, Carl Adolph
(1837). Konflikt zwischen Himmel und Hölle, an dem Dämon eines besessenen
Mädchens. [Caroline Stadelbauer]. Nebst einem Wort an Dr. Strauss. Tübingen,
Leipzig, verlag der Buchhandlung Zu-Guttenberg; Kerner, Justinus. (1835).
Geschichten Besessener neuerer Zeit. Beobachtungen aus dem Gebiete
kakodämonisch-magnetischer Erscheinungen. Karlsruhe: Braun. Görres, Joseph von,
(1854-55) La mystique divine, naturelle, et diabolique, par Görres, ouvrage
traduit de l'allemand par M. Charles Sainte-Foi. Paris, Mme Vve
Poussielgue-Rusand.
5.Taylor, EI (1991). Jung and his intellectual context: The Swedenborgian
connection, Studia Swedenborgiana, 7:2.
6.Sonu Shamdasani, by permission. Translation courtesy of Ms. Angela Sullivan.
7.Compare, for instance, with vishwavirat svarupam, the univsersal form of the
cosmic man, in Tantric Hinduism. unmarried man with no apparent consort
throughout his life, advocates that it is permissible for a married man to take
on a second partner.

0 -1 0 0
6240 ricktompkins
Re: Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy''s Tavern? Recovery rates: do you mean Duffy''s Tavern? 1/17/2010 2:35:00 PM

I stand corrected, Jared, searched for and
found the biography -- hopefully Hazelden will
start reprinting Dale Mitchell's work again!

The Day Room separating new alcoholic patients
and those approaching discharge was named Duffy's
Tavern not 'Dusty's.'

And, Dr. Silkworth was officially hired as
director of alcoholic treatment at Knickerbocker
Hospital in 1945, not 1940.

Mea culpa and best regards, Rick

- - - -

From: J. Lobdell
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010

Do you mean Duffy's Tavern? ... After the radio program?

0 -1 0 0
6241 happycycler
Re: Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey Costello from Pontiac, Michigan 1/17/2010 2:50:00 PM

Please See:

U.S. Social Security Death Index
Search Results
Chauncey COSTELLO
Birth Date: 30 Dec 1910
Death Date: 11 May 2006
Social Security Number: 386-01-6198
State or Territory Where Number Was Issued: Michigan
Death Residence Localities
ZIP Code: 48342
Localities: Pontiac, Oakland, Michigan

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Karl K.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:
>
> My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto
2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941?
He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think,
in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober
before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober) -- there is in Bristol, Pennsylvania,
Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago
-- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER (under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter).
He's the longest sober I've met.

0 -1 0 0
6242 george
William James Symposium William James Symposium 1/17/2010 3:39:00 PM

For those who can't get enough of William James, consider a summer symposium
divided between the White Mountains of New Hampshire and Cambridge,
Massachusetts.

http://www.wjsociety.org/

William James Symposium

A Symposium for Honoring
â€"and making use ofâ€"William James:
In the Footsteps of William James

The William James Society is planning a long-weekend symposium, August 6-9,
2010, to honor the life of James on the occasion of the hundredth anniversary of
his death. In the spirit of James, the symposium, “In the Footsteps of
William James,” will be an opportunity to explore the local settings of
James’s life and to reflect on James’s ability to encounter experience
afresh and approach problems creatively.
The symposium will therefore have two dimensions and we seek presenters for
both:
1. with the symposium taking place at Chocorua, NH, and Cambridge, MA, we call
for presenters familiar with his life in either or both places who could serve
as guides for the participants; there are some residents in both places that
will already be serving this role, so our primary call is for our second
dimension;
2. for a symposium as much about the public intellectual significance of
James’s thought as his scholarly contributions, we call for presenters who can
address issues of historic and contemporary relevance as illuminated by
James’s life and work, for sessions to include topics such as these:
- The Pragmatist Turn, and its potential for reconciling disputes and fostering
common sense in public discourse,
- Values Voters and Valuing Citizenship, on the uses of his theories for
comprehending differences and encouraging listening, and his speaking out
against social injustice,
- Educational Renewal, from James’s own classroom experiences to his talks to
teachers and about education, to his potential to foster opening of minds,
- Spirituality and Belief, with James in anticipation of the endurance of
religion and spirituality in secular settings and of theories for embracing
differences of belief,
- Mental Health, from his theory of habits to his inspirations to help people
with addiction and to encourage the research in positive psychology,
- Appraisals of James by his colleagues, friends, students, and successors in
various fields.
Please send an abstract of 100 words and a brief description of qualifications
to the William James Symposium Committee by January 15, 2010 to:
*Lynn Bridgers: l.bridgers@worldnet.att.net;
*Paul Croce: pcroce@stetson.edu; or Box 8274, Stetson University, 421 N.
Woodland Blvd., DeLand, FL 32720; or
*John Kaag: John_Kaag@UML.edu; or Department of Philosophy, University of
Massachusetts, Lowell, 102 Olney Hall, Lowell, MA 01856

George Cleveland

0 -1 0 0
6243 kevinr1211
Re: Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James 1/17/2010 3:38:00 PM

Henry James (the father) was also thought to
be an alcoholic. The family put a lot of money
into the children's education though, with good
results! The money came from the grandfather...

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"bbthumpthump" <steve@...> wrote:
>
> William James's father, Henry James was a
> Swedenborgian, which I'm sure influenced young
> William James, and in turn Bill Wilson.
>
> Carl Jung was also influenced by Swedenborg,
> as were Kant, and of course Lois Wilson and
> her family.
>

0 -1 0 0
6244 Jay Pees
How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/17/2010 2:04:00 PM

On pages 75-76 of our Big Book it indicates
the waiting period to do Step 6 is about 1 hour.

0 -1 0 0
6245 Bill Lash
RE: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/17/2010 4:01:00 PM

Starting their 4th Step after 7 years? Wow, that's just crazy & certainly
not the AA message! I always like sticking to what the AA literature says
so here's an article I wrote called "When do we work the Steps" compiling
statements mostly from the Big Book's clear-cut directions:

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/12_Steps_Recovery/Pre-Step_Work/When_Do_W\
e_Work_the_Steps.pdf


Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

When Do You Want to Get Well?

by Barefoot Bill

"I wonder how many alcoholics upon finding out they had a deadly ailment and a
doctor had a cure would sit in the
doctor's waiting room 90 times in 90 days (or for a year or more) and wait for
the medicine to be administered to them. I
also wonder how many alcoholics do the same thing concerning our 12 Steps; they
go to 90 meetings in 90 days hoping
to have a spiritual awakening without taking the Steps." - Archie M.
I have been scolded a few times (by fellow AA's) because of the fact that I
sometimes share at meetings about how the
Steps are meant to be worked immediately and quickly. I've been told that this
"theory" will "harm" newcomers (having
only a few days, a few weeks, or a few months) who could not possibly be "ready"
to do the work yet. Then I'm usually
told that these new members should just go to meetings for a while and
eventually they'll "know" when they are ready to
get into the Program. In the early days of AA, when a new person showed up to
their first meeting and asked about when
they were going to get into working the Steps, established members usually asked
them, "When do you want to get well?
If you want to get well now, we'll be working the Steps now. If you DON'T want
to get well now, I guess you can put off
the Steps, but by doing so you're probably going to drink." I do not agree that
we first get our life together and then turn to
God. I believe that we turn to God and then, AND ONLY THEN, do we begin to get
our life together. That's exactly what
the Steps are all about. As a matter of fact, Bill Wilson got into the Steps
after a few days, Dr. Bob got into the Steps after
one day, and Bill Dotson (AA #3) also got into the Steps after a few days. These
were the first three members of AA and
none of them ever drank again. But for me the bottom line is, what does the AA
Program and the AA literature have to
say about it? Since it says, "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has
thoroughly followed our path," then what does the
PATH say? The following is a list of timeframes found in the Big Book, and is
the basis for my experience and the
experience of those I've worked with. Page and paragraph numbers are from the
new Fourth edition.
Page xxvi:4 - "Though we work out our solution on the spiritual as well as an
altruistic plane, we favor hospitalization for
the alcoholic who is very jittery or befogged. More often than not, it is
imperative that a man's brain be cleared before he
is approached, as he has then a better chance of understanding and accepting
what we have to offer." (So it says we
need to be detoxed off of alcohol first, which usually takes two or three days
but in extreme cases takes four or five days,
before getting into the work. See also page xxvii:7.)
Page xxvii:5 - "Many years ago one of the leading contributors to this book
(Bill Wilson) came under our care in this
hospital and while here he acquired some ideas which he put into practical
application AT ONCE." (In about three days
Bill was into working almost all of what later became the AA program. See also
page 13.)
Page xxvii:7 - "Of course an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical
craving for liquor, and this often requires a
definite hospital procedure, before psychological measures (like the Steps) can
be of maximum benefit." (For
psychological measures to benefit us we need to be applying them. So again, it's
saying we need to be detoxed off of
alcohol first, which usually takes two or three days but in extreme cases takes
five or six days, before getting into the
Steps. See also page xxvi:4.)
Page 9 - "The door opened and he stood there, fresh-skinned and glowing. There
was something about his eyes. He was
inexplicably different. What had happened?
"I pushed a drink across the table. He refused it. Disappointed but curious, I
wondered what had got into the fellow. He
wasn't himself.
"'Come, what's all this about?' I queried.
"He looked straight at me. Simply, but smilingly, he said, 'I've got religion.'
"I was aghast. So that was it last summer an alcoholic crackpot; now, I
suspected, a little cracked about religion. He had
that starry-eyed look. Yes, the old boy was on fire all right. But bless his
heart, let him rant! Besides, my gin would last
longer than his preaching.
"But he did no ranting. In a matter of fact way he told how two men had appeared
in court, persuading the judge to
suspend his commitment. They had told of a simple religious idea and a practical
program of action. That was two months
ago and the result was self-evident. It worked!
"He had come to pass his experience along to me -- if I cared to have it. I was
shocked, but interested. Certainly I was
interested. I had to be, for I was hopeless." (So we don't have to wait very
long to start doing Twelfth Step work, all that's
required first is that we have worked most of the 12 Steps.)
Pages 13 thru 15 - "At the hospital I (Bill Wilson) was separated from alcohol
for the last time (Bill was admitted to Towns
Hospital at 2:30PM on December 11, 1934. Bill was 39 years old.). Treatment
seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium
tremens. There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then I understood Him, to do
with me as He would. I placed myself
UNRESERVEDLY under His care and direction. I admitted for the first time that of
myself I was nothing; that without Him I
was lost (Bill takes what later became Step Three. He reached the conclusions of
Step One on page 8:1 and Step Two on
12:4). I RUTHLESSLY faced my sins (what later became Step Four) and became
willing to have my new-found Friend
(God) take them away, root and branch (what later became Steps Six and Seven). I
have not had a drink since.
My schoolmate (Ebby Thacher) visited me, and I FULLY acquainted him with my
problems and deficiencies (what later
became Step Five). We made a list of people I had hurt or toward whom I felt
resentment. I expressed my entire
willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong (what later became
Step Eight). NEVER was I to be critical
of them. I was to right ALL such matters to the UTMOST of my ability (what later
became Step Nine).
I was to test my thinking by the new God-consciousness within. Common sense
would thus become un-common sense
(these two lines refer to what later became Step Ten). I was to sit quietly when
in doubt, asking ONLY for direction and
strength to meet my problems as He would have me. NEVER was I to pray for
myself, except as my requests bore on my
usefulness to others (what later became Step Eleven). Then only might I expect
to receive. But that would be in great
measure. My friend promised when these things were done I would enter upon a new
relationship with my Creator; that I
would have the elements of a way of living which answered ALL my problems (what
later became the first two parts of
Step Twelve). Belief in the power of God, plus enough willingness, honesty and
humility to establish and maintain the new
order of things, were the ESSENTIAL REQUIREMENTS.
Simple, but not easy; a price HAD to be paid. It meant DESTRUCTION of
self-centeredness. I MUST turn in ALL things to
the Father of Light who presides over us all.
These were revolutionary and drastic proposals, but the moment I FULLY accepted
them, the effect was electric. There
was a sense of victory, followed by such a peace and serenity as I had never
know. There was utter confidence. I felt
lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and
through. God comes to most men gradually,
but His impact on me was sudden and profound.
For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend, the doctor (Dr. Silkworth), to
ask if I were still sane. He listened in
wonder as I talked.
Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has happened to you I don't
understand. But you had better hang on to it.
Anything is better than the way you were." The good doctor now sees many men who
have such experiences. He knows
that they are real.
While I lay in the hospital the thought came that there were thousands of
hopeless alcoholics who might be glad to have
what had been so freely given me. Perhaps I could help some of them. They in
turn might work with others.
My friend had emphasized the ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of demonstrating these
principles in ALL my affairs. Particularly
was it IMPERATIVE to work with others as he had worked with me (what later
became the last part of Step Twelve). Faith
without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! FOR
IF AN ALCOHOLIC FAILED TO
PERFECT AND ENLARGE HIS SPIRITUAL LIFE THROUGH WORK AND SELF-SACRIFICE FOR
OTHERS, HE
COULD NOT SURVIVE THE CERTAIN TRIALS AND LOW SPOTS AHEAD. If he did not work, he
would SURELY drink
again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed.
With us it is just like that." (So two or three
days after Bill is admitted into the hospital on December 11th he has a
spiritual experience AS THE RESULT of working
almost all the Steps immediately and quickly in a few days. He THEN talks with
his doctor about what happened to him on
December 14th and is released from the hospital on the afternoon of December
18th).
Page 58:2 - "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to
any length to get it - THEN YOU ARE
READY TO TAKE CERTAIN STEPS." (I'd like to suggest that they are talking about
TWELVE certain steps and you'll
soon see why. Some say that we stay within the first three Steps for a year when
you first get to AA, but please notice
what it says next about Step Three on pages 63:4 -- 64:0.)
Page 63:4 - "NEXT we launch out on a course of VIGOROUS action, the first step
of which is a personal housecleaning,
which many of us had never attempted. Though our decision (which is the Third
Step decision) was a vital and crucial
step, it could have LITTLE PERMANENT EFFECT unless AT ONCE followed by a
STRENUOUS EFFORT to face, AND
to be rid of, the things in ourselves which had been blocking us." (So it's
saying that this Third Step decision is important
but will have LITTLE PERMANENT EFFECT unless we IMMEDIATELY follow it up with an
INTENSELY ACTIVE
EFFORT to work Steps Four through Nine, because where we face these things that
block us from turning our will and our
lives over to God is in Steps Four, Five, and Six; and where we get rid of what
blocks us from turning our will and lives
over is in Steps Seven, Eight, and Nine. So the way we turn our will and lives
over to the care of God as we understand
Him is by IMMEDIATELY and STRENUOUSLY working AT LEAST the six middle Steps.)
Page 72:2 - "We will be more reconciled to discussing ourselves with another
person (doing a Fifth Step) when we see
good reasons why we should do so. The best reason first: If we skip this vital
step, we may not overcome drinking. Time
after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their
lives. Trying to avoid this humbling
experience, they have turned to easier methods. Almost invariably they got
drunk. Having persevered with the rest of the
program, they wondered why they fell. We think the reason is that they never
completed their housecleaning. They took
inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock. They only
thought they had lost their egoism and fear;
they only thought they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough
of humility, fearlessness and honesty,
in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else all their life
story (Fifth Step)." (It's talking about
NEWCOMERS working ALL of the Steps.)
Page 74:2 - "Notwithstanding the GREAT NECESSITY for discussing ourselves with
someone (doing a Fifth Step), it may
be one is so situated that there is no suitable person available. If that is so,
this step may be postponed, ONLY, however,
if we hold ourselves in COMPLETE readiness to go through with it at the FIRST
opportunity." (See also page 75:1.)
Page 75:1 - "When we decide who is to hear our story (our Fifth Step), WE WASTE
NO TIME." (So after we write our
three Fourth Step inventories of resentment, fear, and harms; it says we
IMMEDIATELY share our Fifth Step.)
Page 75:3 - "Returning home we find a place where we can be quiet for AN HOUR,
carefully reviewing what we have
done." (It's saying that IMMEDIATELY following our Fifth Step, we spend ONE HOUR
of undisturbed and uninterrupted
quiet time, seeing if the foundation we have built with our first five Steps is
done honestly and to the best of our ability.
Then see page 76:1.)
Page 76:1 - "If we can answer to our satisfaction (the questions we ask
ourselves IMMEDIATELY following our Fifth Step
in the previous paragraph), we THEN look at Step Six. We have emphasized
willingness as being indispensable. ARE WE
NOW READY to let God remove from us ALL the things which we have admitted are
objectionable (in our Fourth and Fifth
Steps)? Can He NOW take them ALL - everyone? If we still cling to something we
will not let go, we ask God to help us
be willing." (So Six immediately follows the hour we took after Five. So Five
and Six are both done on the same day.)
Page 76:2 - "WHEN READY (which answers one of the questions of Step Six), we say
something like this: 'My Creator, I
am NOW willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you NOW
remove from me every single defect
of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows.
Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to
do your bidding. Amen.' We have then completed Step Seven." (In Step Six, we
were asked if we were NOW ready. If
we are, we then do Step Seven. If there are SOME defects we are NOT willing to
go to God with, we pray for the
willingness to ask God to help us with them, but go on to Step Seven with the
defects we ARE willing to ask God to help
us with. Either way, Step Five, Six, and Seven are all done on the same day.
Steps Three and Seven are then a daily
striving and prayer, practiced for the rest of our lives.)
Page 76:3 - "NOW we need more action, without which we find that "Faith without
works is dead." Let's look at Steps
Eight and Nine. We have a list of ALL persons we have harmed and to whom we are
willing to make amends. We made it
when we took inventory. We subjected ourselves to a drastic self-appraisal. NOW
we go out to our fellows and repair the
damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which has
accumulated out of our effort to live on self-will
and run the show ourselves. If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it
comes. Remember it was agreed at the
beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol." (NOW is
mentioned twice in this paragraph, and even
says, "NOW we go out". So Steps Five through Nine are ALL done together (in
rapid succession), according to the
directions in the Big Book. If there are a few amends we are NOT willing to
make, we pray for the willingness but proceed
with the amends we ARE willing to make.)
Page 83:3 - "Some people cannot be seen -- we send them an honest letter. And
there may be a valid reason for
postponement in some cases (in doing Step 9). But we DON"T DELAY IF IT CAN BE
AVOIDED."
Page 84:2 - "This thought (the thought of the Ninth Step promises ALWAYS
materializing IF we work for them) brings us
to Step Ten, which suggests we CONTINUE to take personal inventory and CONTINUE
to set right ANY new mistakes
AS WE GO ALONG (so the Tenth Step is NOT done just at night but should be done
MOMENT BY MOMENT, AS WE
GO ALONG throughout the day). We VIGOROUSLY commenced THIS way of living (the
Steps Ten and Eleven "way of
living") AS WE CLEANED UP THE PAST (we begin to clean up the past in Step
Nine.)." (So Ten and Eleven begin to be
worked as soon as we start making amends.) "…It should continue for a LIFETIME
(So we never stop working Step
Ten)."
Page 95:1 -- "Sometimes a new man is anxious to proceed (in the Big Book's
Original Manuscript, this word was replaced
with, "make a decision and discuss his affairs") at once, and you may be tempted
to let him do so. This is sometimes a
mistake (they are only talking about the first visit here). If he has trouble
later, he is likely to say you rushed him." (So it's
saying that on the FIRST visit we shouldn't get the new person into the Steps
yet, but please see 96:2 to see what it says
about the SECOND visit.)
Page 96:2 - Suppose now you are making your second visit to a (new) man. He has
read this volume (the Big Book) and
says he is prepared to go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of
recovery. HAVING HAD THE EXPERIENCE
YOURSELF, you can give him MUCH practical advice. Let him know you are available
of he wishes to make a decision
(Step Three) and tell his story (Steps Four and Five), but do not insist upon it
if he prefers to consult someone else.
Page 156:3 - But life was not easy for the two friends (Bill Wilson & Dr. Bob).
Plenty of difficulties presented themselves.
Both saw that they MUST keep SPIRITUALLY active. One day they called up the head
nurse of a local hospital. They
explained their need and inquired if she had a first class alcoholic prospect.
She replied, "Yes, we've got a corker (Bill Dotson, whose sober date is June 26,
1935). He's just beaten up a couple of
nurses. Goes off his head completely when he's drinking. But he's a grand chap
when he's sober, though he's been in
here eight times in the last six months. Understand he was once a well-known
lawyer in town, but just now we've got him
strapped down tight."
Here was a prospect all right but, by the description, none too promising. The
use of SPIRITUAL principles in such case
was not so well understood as it is now. But one of the friends said, "Put him
in a private room. We'll be down."
Two days later, a future fellow of Alcoholics Anonymous stared glassily at the
strangers beside his bed. "Who are you
fellows, and why this private room? I was always in a ward before."
Said one of the visitors, "We're giving you a treatment for alcoholism."
Hopelessness was written large on the man's face as he replied, "Oh, but that's
no use. Nothing would fix me. I'm a goner.
The last three times, I got drunk on the way home from here. I'm afraid to go
out the door. I can't understand it." (Part of
Bill D.'s First Step conclusion, and please notice the Twelfth Step work over
the next few paragraphs.)
For an hour, the two friends told him about their drinking experiences. Over and
over, he would say: "That's me. That's
me. I drink like that."
The man in the bed was told of the acute poisoning from which he suffered, how
it deteriorates the body of an alcoholic
and warps his mind. There was much talk about the mental state preceding the
first drink.
"Yes, that' me," said the sick man, "the very image. You fellows know your stuff
all right, but I don't see what good it'll do.
You fellows are somebody. I was once, but I'm a nobody now. From what you tell
me, I know more than ever I can't stop
(more of Bill D.'s First Step conclusion)." At this both the visitors burst into
a laugh. Said the future Fellow Anonymous:
"Damn little to laugh about that I can see."
The two friends spoke of their SPIRITUAL experience and told him about the
COURSE OF ACTION they carried out.
He interrupted: "I used to be strong for the church, but that won't fix it. I've
prayed to God on hangover mornings and
sworn that I'd never touch another drop but by nine o'clock I'd be boiled as an
owl."
Next day found the prospect more receptive. He had been thinking it over. "Maybe
you're right," he said. "God ought to be
able to do anything (Bill D.'s Second Step conclusion)." Then he added, "He sure
didn't do much for me when I was trying
to fight this booze racket alone."
ON THE THIRD DAY the lawyer gave his life to the care and direction of his
Creator (Bill D.'s Step Three decision), and
said he was perfectly willing to do ANYTHING necessary (Steps Four through
Twelve). His wife came, scarcely daring to
be hopeful, though she thought she saw something different about her husband
already. He had begun to have a spiritual
experience.
That afternoon he put on his clothes and walked from the hospital a free man. He
entered a political campaign, making
speeches, frequenting men's gathering places of all sorts, often staying up all
night. He lost the race by only a narrow
margin. But he had found God is and in finding God had found himself.
That was in June, 1935. He never drank again. He too, has become a respected and
useful member of his community. He
has helped other men recover, and is a power in the church from which he was
long absent. (So Bill Dotson, or AA #3,
got right into the Steps within a few days, as was the practice in early AA.)
Page 262:6 - The day before I was due to go back to Chicago (this is during the
summer of 1937), a Wednesday and Dr.
Bob's day off, he had me down to the office and we spent THREE OR FOUR HOURS
formally going through the Six Step
program (which later became AA's Twelve Step program) as it was at that time.
The six steps were: 1. Complete deflation
(which later became Step 1). 2. Dependence and guidance from a Higher Power
(which later became Steps 2,3,6,7 &
11). 3. Moral inventory (which later became Steps 4 & 10). 4. Confession (which
later became Step 5). 5. Restitution
(which later became Steps 8 & 9). 6. Continued work with other alcoholics (which
later became Step 12). Dr. Bob led me
through ALL of these steps. At the moral inventory (Steps 4 & 5), he brought up
some of my bad personality traits or
character defects, such as selfishness, conceit, jealousy, carelessness,
intolerance, ill-temper, sarcasm and resentments.
We went over these at great length and then he finally asked me if I wanted
these defects of character removed (Step 6).
When I said yes, we both knelt at his desk and prayed, each of us asking to have
these defects taken away (Step 7). This
picture is still vivid. If I live to be a hundred, it will always stand out in
my mind. It was very impressive and I wish that
every A.A. could have the benefit of this type of sponsorship today. Dr. Bob
ALWAYS emphasized the religious angle
VERY STRONGLY, and I think it helped. I know it helped me. Dr. Bob then led me
through the restitution step, in which I
made a list of ALL of the persons I had harmed (Step 8), and worked out ways and
means of slowly making restitution
(Step 9). (So again, most of the Steps being worked in one day.)
Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, page 101 -- "Dorothy S.M. recalled the 1937
meetings…"The newcomers surrendered
in the presence of all those other people." After the surrender, many of the
steps -- involving inventory, admission of
character defects, and making restitution -- were taken within a matter of
days."

0 -1 0 0
6246 Steven Harris
Re: Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking Grave emotional and mental disorders, delusionary thinking 1/18/2010 12:29:00 AM

Thank you, I identifed with about six or seven
personailty disorders that I come to understand
as alcoholism ... as well as the maladjustment
to life that Dr. William Silkworth talks about
in The Doctor's Opinion ... I really understand
that I have not just been physically ill but
mentally ill .... Thank u again cheers...

Sent from my iPhone

- - - -

Big Book, "The Doctor's Opinion"

"The physician who, at our request, gave us this let-
ter, has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views in
another statement which follows. In this statement he
confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture
must believe--that the body of the alcoholic is quite as
abnormal as his mind. It did not satisfy us to be told
that we could not control our drinking just because we
were maladjusted to life, that we were in full flight
from reality, or were outright mental defectives. These
things were true to some extent, in fact, to a consider-
able extent with some of us. But we are sure that our
bodies were sickened as well."

"'The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult, and
in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are,
of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable.
We are all familiar with this type. They are always "going
on the wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and
make many resolutions, but never a decision.'"

"'There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that
he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking.
He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type
who always believes that after being entirely free from
alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without
danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, per-
haps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom
a whole chapter could be written.'"

- - - -

On 17 Jan 2010, at 04:17, Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> As I understand it, the question you are asking is, what were they
> talking about, in terms of modern psychological terminology, when they
> referred on p. 58 of the Big Book to people "who suffer from grave
> emotional and mental disorders," and when they referred on p. 62 of
> the Big Book to "self-delusion"?
>
> This basic question has been asked a number of times over the years in
> the AAHistoryLovers, in various kinds of ways, most recently in
> Message #6195
>
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6195
>
> And so far, nobody has ever written a message back giving any
> satisfactory answer.
>
> Let me try to give you a different kind of answer, however. There were
> three basic models of alcoholism treatment in the early days, which
> had
> extremely high success rates, and which were positively disposed
> towards AA.
>
> 1.. Sister Ignatia's treatment program at St. Thomas Hospital in Akron.
> They had a psychiatrist on staff, and when an alcoholic came in who
> needed psychiatric help in addition to guidance in working the steps,
> they sent that person to the hospital psychiatrist. There is a
> chapter on
> her program in Bill Swegan's book:
> http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html
>
> 2. The Lackland Model developed by A.A. member Bill Swegen and
> famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West (later copied by
> Captain Joseph Zuska and A.A. member Commander Richard Jewell
> for their Navy alcoholism treatment program at Long Beach, with equal
> success).
> http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html
> In this treatment method, leadership of the treatment was shared
> between a good psychiatrist and an A.A. member with a lot of quality
> time in the program. Bill Swegan reports that only a certain
> percentage
> of the alcoholics whom they treated actually had severe psychiatric
> problems, and that usually the only people who could actually profit
> from psychiatric help were those who were a little better educated and
> more aware of their own emotions. If the alcoholic's psychiatric
> problems were crippling and could not be treated well enough to
> restore that person to active duty in the Air Force, the person was
> denied treatment for his alcoholism and discharged from the Air Force.
>
> 3. The Minnesota Model also tried to combine psychological help and
> A.A. participation, starting around 1954 at Willmar State Hospital in
> Minnesota, with great success. In the early 1960's, Hazelden also
> began using this method, also with great success.
> But then in 1966, Lynn C., who had continued to insist that Hazelden's
> treatment regimen remain "pure A.A.," finally left the center, and the
> mental health professionals came to strongly dominate Hazelden from
> that point on. The philosophy became one of treating "chemical
> dependency" using many different disciplines and treatment modalities.
> For myself, I'm not sure that the present Hazelden program could still
> be termed the classic "Minnesota Model" in any kind of way.
> See http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html and William L. White, Slaying the
> Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America
> (Bloomington, Illinois: Chestnut Health Systems and Lighthouse
> Institute, 1998).
> But it is certainly clear that the combination of good A.A.,
> together with good psychological help for the small percentage
> who need it, can be a very powerful and successful combination
> in the treating of alcoholism and drug addiction.
>
> - - - -
>
> The conclusion I think we can draw, is that the three most successful
> treatment programs which were developed during the early period of
> AA history, combined total immersion into the AA fellowship, along
> with psychiatric care for the small percentage who needed it. Having
> even fairly severe psychological or mental problems was hardly ever
> regarded as an automatic indication that one would never ever be able
> to work the AA program or stay sober using the twelve steps.
>
> In my own experience, I have seen people get sober and stay sober
> who were severely schizophrenic (I remember a woman in a meeting I
> used to attend who heard one of the voices in her head telling her one
> day to bite off one of her own fingers, so she did it -- but she
> eventually
> got sober, and stayed sober, and had a fair amount of serenity most of
> the time). Also numerous people who were deeply bipolar. A young
> woman with Down's syndrome. I used to sponsor a person with
> ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). Borderline
> Personality Disorder.
>
> So if you have an alcohol or drug program AND you also have severe
> psychological problems, DO NOT give up hope and fall into despair,
> and start saying to yourself, "Oh, I will never ever be able get
> clean and sober."
>
> Instead, (a) start attending AA meetings and working the program, and
> (b) get a good psychotherapist or psychologist or psychiatrist and let
> that person help you too. Throughout AA history, people who have
> done that, and done it as honestly as they could, have consistently
> found sobriety, a good life, and a considerable amount of happiness.
>
>
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
6247 stevec012000
Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/17/2010 6:50:00 PM

From Steve C., Bailey, jax760, and elisabeth98043

- - - -

From "stevec012000"
<steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

Page 98 in Not God claims that Bill finally
took his fifth when he met Father Dowling.
That was several years after his meeting with
Ebby. I am sure Dr. Kurtz can elaborate on
that more if he cares. Unless I am reading
this wrong.

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

DR Bob said the steps simmer down in the last to
love and service. People giving rules for the
steps forget they are suggested, and our book
is suggested only.

There are stories in AA of Akron AAers taking
a novice into an upstairs room and getting him
on his knees and running him quickly through
the required dogma of the time.

- - - -

From: "jax760" <jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

From Appendix II, page 569

"What often takes place in a few months
could hardly be accomplished by years of
self-discipline."

What often takes place is a "spiritual experience"
or "spiritual awakening" also described as a
"personality change", "religious experiences,
"sudden and spectacular upheavals" "sudden
revolutionary changes", "Godconsciousness",
"vast change in feeling and outlook",
"transformations", "profound alterations"

"Having had a spiritual awakening as THE RESULT
OF THESE STEPS....."

which often takes place in a few months.

"self discipline" ....trying to not to drink and
just attending the meetings?

God Bless

- - - -

From: "Elisabeth" <elisabeth98043@yahoo.com>
(elisabeth98043 at yahoo.com)

If you read the old literature, it says that the
newcomers weren't even allowed into the meetings
until they had done all 6 steps (as they were back
then).

0 -1 0 0
6248 ricktompkins
Re: minority opinion question minority opinion question 1/17/2010 3:03:00 PM

Another example, with background on the AA
principles involved, of the Minority Opinion
in action at the Area level. From one of the
Appendices of Area 20 (Northern Illinois)'s
published history book, used with permission.

Rick, Illinois
_____

OUR THIRD LEGACY AND A REMARKABLE CONSENSUS

A number of factors apply to the search for a consensus from the
groups of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the decisions eventually approved on
any particular issue show the use of sound A.A. principles. Any group
conscience is hopefully an informed group conscience, where the
presentation of background facts combine with current views toward a course
of positive action. While not always announced in emphasis, resulting
decisions reflect an A.A. principle stated in the Twelve Concepts for World
Service (adopted at the 1962 General Service Conference) as Warranty Four of
Concept Twelve: "that all important decisions be reached by discussion,
vote, and whenever possible, by substantial unanimity." The idea in our
Second Tradition of "a loving God as he may express himself in our group
conscience" serves as both a motivation for any proposal a group votes on,
and also becomes a vehicle that carries the results of voted motions.

Voting at the Assemblies of Northern Illinois Area 20 always prove the
vitality of A.A. principles. Our voting and search for an Area 20
consensus is not always completed in one vote, however. A thorough
discussion continues before and after voting a specific motion, as Concept
Five's "right of appeal" allows for the presentation of the minority
opinion. In Alcoholics Anonymous, seen in voting from individual groups
to Districts to Assemblies onward to the General Service Conference, the
minority opinion is well considered. Our procedure of voting has always
provided the opportunity for a reconsideration vote. The final decision on
any proposed motion is an authentic informed group conscience where
minority views blend into the outcome.

Full NIA consideration was give to a particular motion presented at
the 1990 Spring Assembly held in Joliet, resulting in an extraordinary
outcome when the Assembly considered its minority views. NIA Delegate
Phyllis W. discussed the effort of another Area for the General Service
Conference to approve, develop, and publish an A.A. pamphlet on "Unity."
With the Spring Assembly held about one month before that year's Conference,
Phyllis reported that some of the large amounts of her mail discussed the
proposal for the new pamphlet. She shared the ideas, the details, and
the background of the proposal in the morning session during the Delegate's
Report, allowing enough time for a thorough Assembly discussion before
voting its consensus in the afternoon session.

The first Assembly vote demonstrated Area 20 as being very much in
favor of the 1990 Conference looking into developing a pamphlet on A.A.
Unity, with less than 10% voting a minority view. Then, as NIA
Assemblies always proceed, the request was made to hear from the minority
"if it wished to address the issue." Four or five NIA trusted servants
shared their reservations on developing a "Unity" pamphlet and the ideas
are included here to help explain the second vote on the proposal. A past
Delegate reported that of A.A. pamphlets in 1990 distribution, the
subject of A.A. unity was presented and announced over sixteen times.
Whether a "Unity" pamphlet was really needed or would actually be read by
the Fellowship appeared as the strong consideration for the Assembly NOT to
approve its development. Another spoke on the idea that A.A. Unity, one
of the Three Legacies of our Fellowship, could be thought of as a living,
existing, and flexible entity. A new pamphlet on the subject might either
be incomplete or detract from the real forces of unity at work in Alcoholics
Anonymous. Another spoke of A.A.'s Tradition One, where both our common
welfare and personal recovery depend upon A.A. unity. By wisely placing
the word "unity" in the short form of the First Tradition, the remaining
eleven Traditions literally describe the limits and explain the results that
the principles of A.A. unity bring to our Fellowship.

The motion was called for a second vote, and as reported in the
Spring Assembly minutes by the NIA Secretary, "Upon a standing vote it was
evidenced that there was a total turnaround of the opinion of the Assembly
and the question was denied." The second vote unanimously declined
approval for developing a new pamphlet on "Unity." The 1990 General
Service Conference also declined to proceed with the pamphlet's development.
The NIA Spring Assembly, after hearing the views expressed by its minority
vote, fully reconsidered the thoughtful ideas presented and delivered its
informed group conscience, a substantial unanimity and a truly remarkable
consensus.

0 -1 0 0
6249 allan_gengler
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/17/2010 7:03:00 PM

In my little area of Tennessee we ask a person
have six months to chair, but other groups have
no such "requirement." I've never seen an
official AA stance on this and from what I
know about traditions and concepts that probably
wouldn't happen since leadership comes from the
Group Up to GSO and not the other way around.

Interestingly in "Dr. Bob and The Good Oldtimers,"
some of the early meetings at T. Henry's house
weren't even run by alcoholics but my Oxford
Groupers.

That was probably a good thing, considering
the state of the sober few at the time.

--Al

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

There is a lot of AA literature that encourages
AAers to work with others from the start.

Particularly the first chapter of the big book
said that was it imperative to work with others.

On page 159 Bill W says he could leave people
with less than three months sober as they were
trying to work with others.

But remember also that Bill W says in a couple
of places there was freedom of thought and action.
Groups do have the right to be wrong, according
to Bill W.

0 -1 0 0
6250 Arthur S
Re: Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan 1/18/2010 9:25:00 AM

Good grief - is there absolutely no respect on
this web site for AA's Anonymity Traditions?

While AAHistoryLovers is not an AA entity, the
AA members who submit material should practice
at least a token respect for the Traditions.

Arthur

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

Not sure if Social Security #'s should be
posted? What does that have to do with recovery
from alcoholism?

-cm

0 -1 0 0
6251 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan Chauncey C. from Pontiac, Michigan 1/19/2010 4:51:00 PM

Mel B. <melb@buckeye-access.com>
(melb at buckeye-access.com)

Glenn,

I notice there's been some interest in Chauncey Costello, a real oldtimer who
lived in Pontiac, Michigan.  I sent the following comment to jlobdell and
suggested he circulate it.  Perhaps you might consider circulating it to History
Lovers.

Mel Barger

I met Chauncey Costello in late 1950 in an AA meeting at the All Saints
Episcopal Church in Pontiac, Michigan.  With about nine years, he was the oldest
in the group in terms of sobriety.  I had just moved to Pontiac from my
hometown, Norfolk, Nebraska, where I had my last drink on April 15, 1950.  I
stood in awe of Chauncey, as did others in the Stevens Group (so called because
we met in Stevens Hall at the church).
 
He had a small business operating bulldozers, etc., a trade he followed all of
his life.  In later years, when Guest House was opened for Catholic priests in
nearby Lake Orion, he did much of the bulldozing on the grounds of the estate
they used.
 
Chauncey stayed active in AA throughout his life.  He had found AA in 1941 after
a nudge from a friendly judge who had just heard about the program (and had
previously been referring drunks to the Salvation Army!).
 
Chauncey considered himself a blue-collar man and at first felt a bit
uncomfortable with the lawyers and other professional men he met at his first AA
meeting, in Birmingham, Michigan.  But he quickly got into the swim of things
and became highly respected for his character and skills.  And by the time I
moved to Pontiac, there were plenty of blue-collar workers in the AA membership
along with the professional people.
 
I spent many years in Jackson, Mich., and Toledo, Ohio, and saw Chauncey only a
few times until early in this century.  But I always heard about the great work
he was doing, still in the greater Pontiac area.
 
Then a man from New York wanted to interview Chauncey, so I made the
arrangements and we called on him in a Pontiac hospital.
 
Some time later, I saw Chauncey for the last time. Amazingly, it was at an AA
meeting in the All Saints Episcopal Church, the place where I had first met him
in 1950.  He was in a wheelchair, but still mentally alert and interested in the
meeting.
 
Chauncey and his wife Vivian were married at age 15.  They had a long and loving
marriage marred by some difficulties.  Their daughter, for example, was murdered
by her husband.  But they had other children and grandchildren who were close to
them in their old age.
 
I hope you will circulate this account to others.  Thank you very much.

Mel Barger, Toledo, Ohio
<melb@accesstoledo.com>
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

0 -1 0 0
6252 Ernest Kurtz
Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/19/2010 8:51:00 PM

Stevec012000,

Abstaining from the other claims in this message, let me at least
approach your query. Please remember that I am now retired, all my N-
G notes given to Brown University and a few other small archives, so I
have to tackle this one from fairly vivid but still aging memory.

In the long recording that Bill did to help Robert Thomsen in his
research, Bill mentions after his long conversation with Dowling, he
”felt for the first time completely cleansed and freed.“ At the time
of my research, I discussed this with several of the then-surviving
old-timers, and they agreed that given the time and circumstances --
remember, the 12 Steps had not yet been formulated and all they had to
go on was Oxford Group practice -- this ”must have been Bill's first
'Fifth Step.'“ ”That is one of the things you should get from a real
Fifth Step.“

Over time and listening to more of Bill and reading more of his
correspondence about the Steps and Father Dowling, I came to agree
with the historical certainty of that understanding.

Hope this helps.

ernie

- - - -

> >From "stevec012000"
> <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
> (steven.calderbank at verizon.net)
>
> Page 98 in Not God claims that Bill finally
> took his fifth when he met Father Dowling.
> That was several years after his meeting with
> Ebby. I am sure Dr. Kurtz can elaborate on
> that more if he cares. Unless I am reading
> this wrong.

0 -1 0 0
6253 John Barton
Re: Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James Swedenborgian influences on Jung, Kant, and William James 1/19/2010 6:39:00 PM

The Moderator opined in a previous post:
 
"To put it crudely, for Lois and Bill (at least when Bill was sober), you did
not gain salvation by getting down on your knees and accepting Jesus Christ as
your Lord and Savior (there is nothing in the first 164 pages of the Big Book
about that) -- you gained salvation via visions of White Light, experiences of
the Transcendentalist Over-Soul in the wonders of the starry heavens overhead,
and Swedenborgian conversations with angels who were simply the spirits of human
beings who had once lived upon this earth."

Bill wrote in The AA Way of Life (As  Bill Sees It) No. 114:
 
"NO PERSONAL POWER"

"At first, the remedy for my personal difficulties seemed so obvious that I
could not imagine any alcoholic turning the proposition down were it properly
presented to him. Believing so firmly that Christ can do anything, I had the
unconscious conceit to suppose that He would do everything through me -- right
then and in the manner I chose. After six long months, I had to admit that not a
soul had surely laid hold of the Master -- not excepting myself.

"This brought me to the good healthy realization that there were plenty of
situations left in the world over which I had no personal power -- that if I was
so ready to admit that to be the case with alcohol, so I must make the same
admission with respect to much else. I would have to be still and know that He,
not I, was God."

LETTER, 1940 -
 
God Bless

0 -1 0 0
6254 James Blair
Re: Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? Requirement for time sober for people running meetings? 1/19/2010 6:56:00 PM

Al wrote
." I've never seen an official AA stance on this and from what I
> know about traditions and concepts that probably wouldn't happen since
> leadership comes from the Group Up to GSO and not the other way around.

The pamphlet "The AA Group" contains all sorts of recommendations for sober
time for various positions as a trusted servant. Obviously these are based
on experienmce but as always each group has the right to be wrong.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
6255 firituallyspit
Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? 1/20/2010 9:33:00 AM

I heard a person share in a meeting that all
early meetings were "Speaker" meetings. I am
not so sure that is accurate. Does anybody have
the low down on these early meeting formats?

0 -1 0 0
6256 Chuck Parkhurst
Henry (Hank) P. Henry (Hank) P. 1/20/2010 6:02:00 AM

Members

I am looking for a confirmation with source
reference, for the date of death for Henry
"Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death
reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the
year 1954.

Many Thanks

In Service with Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

0 -1 0 0
6257 R. Peter Nixon, MBA
Bob E. (AA #11) Bob E. (AA #11) 1/20/2010 7:03:00 PM

Bob Evans (AA #11) came to the fellowship in
February 1937.  Does anyone know his birthdate,
birthplace, sobriety date, place and date of
death?

0 -1 0 0
6258 jax760
Re: Henry (Hank) P. Henry (Hank) P. 1/20/2010 2:52:00 PM

Hi Chuck,

The information you require can by found in the
New Jersey Herald, January 27, 1954. Although
I do not have a copy I believe it lists the date
as January 18th.

Regards


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst" <ineedpage63@...>
wrote:
>
> Members
>
> I am looking for a confirmation with source
> reference, for the date of death for Henry
> "Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death
> reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the
> year 1954.
>
> Many Thanks
>
> In Service with Gratitude,
>
> Chuck Parkhurst
>

0 -1 0 0
6259 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Henry (Hank) P. Henry (Hank) P. 1/20/2010 8:25:00 AM

During his all too short period of sobriety.

He died after a long illness at Glenwood
Sanitarium in Trenton, New Jersey, on January
18, 1954, at the age of fifty-seven. Lois Wilson
ascribed his death to drinking.

Funeral services were held Thursday, January 22
at Blackwell Memorial Home. Rev. A. Kenneth
Magner of the First Presbyterian Church performed
the service.

At the time of his death he and his wife,
Kathleen Nixon Parkhurst (whom he had remarried
after two failed marriages) were living at
Washington-Crossing Road, Pennington, New
Jersey.

One son, Henry G. Parkhurst, Jr., was living
in Madeira Beach, Florida. A second son Robert
S. Parkhurst, was living in Pennington.

Special thanks to Ron R., of Kentucky, for
information concerning Hank's death and burial.

Above written by Nancy O.

- - - -

In a message dated 1/20/2010 12:29:21 P.M.
Eastern Standard Time, ineedpage63@cox.net writes:

I am looking for a confirmation with source
reference, for the date of death for Henry
"Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death
reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the
year 1954.

Many Thanks

In Service with Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

0 -1 0 0
6260 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/20/2010 8:16:00 AM

As Ernie points out, Bill W felt he took the fifth step in 1940 or so time
period. Now I do not know when one is to take the fifth step, or if one should
take the fifth step, that is up to the individual. But below is some of Bill W's
address to the Catholic Clergy Council. He places the date as 1938 as when the
steps were written.

Bill W.'s talk to the Catholic Clergy Council:

[Bill W. is saying here that WE ALCOHOLICS BROKE WITH THE OXFORD GROUP BECAUSE
WE DID NOT WANT TO BECOME A PROTESTANT EVANGELICAL SECT which was trying to
"save" the whole world by preaching the evangelical gospel message that the
atoning blood of the divine God-man Christ which he shed on the cross was the
ONLY thing that would save our souls or give us eternal life. G.C.]

Before leaving the subject of the Oxford Groups, perhaps I should specifically
outline why we felt it necessary to part company with them. To begin with, the
climate of their undertaking was not well suited to us alcoholics. They were
aggressively evangelical, they sought to re-vitalize the Christian message in
such a way as to "change the world."

Most of us alcoholics had been subjected to pressure of evangelism and we had
never liked it. The object of saving the world -- when it was still much in
doubt if we could save ourselves -- seemed better left to other people.

[Bill W. is saying here that WE HAD TO BREAK WITH THE OXFORD GROUP'S ATTEMPT TO
MAKE US CARRY OUT OUR MORAL INVENTORY SO QUICKLY -- you could not analyze and
remake an alcoholic's moral character in just a few days or a few weeks -- but
it took us early AA people a while to realize this. G.C.]

By reason of some of its terminology and by the exertion of huge pressure, the
Oxford Group set a moral stride that was too fast, particularly for our newer
alcoholics. They constantly talked of Absolute Purity, Absolute Unselfishness,
Absolute Honesty, and Absolute Love. While sound theology must always have its
absolute values, the Oxford Groups created the feeling that one should arrive
at these destinations in short order, maybe by next Thursday!

Perhaps they didn't mean to create such an impression but that was the effect.

Sometimes their public "witnessing" was of such a character as to cause us to
be shy. They also believe that by "converting" prominent people to their
beliefs, they would hasten the salvation of the many who were less prominent.

This attitude could scarcely appeal to the average drunk since he was anything
but distinguished.

The Oxford Group also had attitudes and practices which added up to a highly
coercive authority. This was exercised by "team" of older members. They would
gather in meditation and receive specific guidance for the life conduct of
newcomers. This guidance could cover all possible situations from the most
trivial to the most serious.

If the directions so obtained were not followed the enforcement machinery began
to operate. It consisted of a sort of coldness and aloofness which made
recalcitrants feel they weren't wanted.

At one time, for example, a team got guidance for me to the effect that I was
no longer to work with alcoholics. This I couldn't accept.

Another example: When I first contacted the Oxford Groups, Catholics were
permitted to attend their meetings because they were strictly
non-denominational.

[Bill W. WARNS HERE THAT IF YOU LINK ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS WITH ANY RELIGIOUS
GROUP, the next thing you know, AA MEMBERS WILL START BEING REQUIRED TO GIVE
MONEY TO THAT RELIGIOUS SECT, and leave the religious group that they were
brought up in. G.C.]

But after a time the Catholic Church forbade its members to attend and the
reason for this seemed a good one. Through the Oxford Group teams Catholic
Church members were actually receiving very specific guidance for their lives;
they were often infused with the idea that their own Church had become rather
horse-and-buggy, and needed to be changed. Guidance was frequently given that
contributions should be made to the Oxford Groups. In a way this amounted to
putting Catholics under a separate ecclesiastical jurisdiction.

At this time there were few Catholics in our own alcoholic groups. Obviously we
could not approach any more Catholics under Oxford Group auspices. Therefore
this was another and the basic reason for the withdrawal of our alcoholic crowd
from the Oxford Groups notwithstanding our great indebtedness to them.

Writing Down The Twelve Steps

Perhaps you would be interested in a further account of the writing down of the
Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.

In the spring of 1938 we had commenced to prepare a book showing the methods of
our then nameless fellowship. We thought there should be a text for this which
could be supported by stories, or case histories, written by some of our
recovered people.

The work proceeded very slowly until some four chapters were done. The content
of these chapters had been the subject of endless discussion and even hot
argument.

The preliminary chapters consisted of my own story, a rationalization of AA for
the benefit of the agnostic, plus descriptions of the alcoholic illness. Even
over this much material the haggling had been so great that I had begun to feel
much more like an umpire than an author.

Arrived then at what is now Chapter Five, it was realized that a specific
program for recovery had to be laid down as a basis for any further progress.
By then I felt pretty frazzled and discouraged.

One night, in a bad mood I must confess, I lay in bed at home considering our
next move. After a time, the idea hit me that we might take our "word of
mouth" program, the one I have already described, and amplify it into several
more steps.

This would make our program perfectly explicit. The necessary ground could be
covered so thoroughly that no rationalizing alcoholic could misunderstand or
wiggle away by that familiar process. We might also be able to hit readers at
a distance, people to whom we could offer no personal help at the moment.
Therefore a more thorough job of codification had to be done. With only this in
mind I began to sketch the new steps on a yellow pad. To my astonishment they
seemed to come very easily, and with incredible rapidity.

Perhaps the writing required no more than twenty or thirty minutes. Seemingly I
had to think little at all. It was only when I came to the end of the writing
that I re-read and counted them. Curiously enough, they numbered twelve and
required almost no editing. They looked surprisingly good -- at least to me.
Of course I felt vastly encouraged.

In the course of this writing, I had considerably changed the order of the
presentation. In our word-of-mouth program, we had reversed mention of God to
the very end. For some reason, unknown to me, I had transposed this to almost
the very beginning.

In my original draft of the Twelve Steps, God was mentioned several times and
only as God. It never occurred to me to qualify this to "God as we understand
Him" as we did later on. Otherwise the Twelve Steps stand today almost exactly
as they were first written.

When these Steps were shown to my friends, their reactions were quite mixed
indeed. Some argued that six steps had worked fine, so why twelve? From our
agnostic contingent there were loud cries of too much God.

Others objected to an expression which I had included which suggested getting on
one's knees while in prayer. I heavily resisted these objections for months.
But finally did take out my statement about a suitable prayerful posture and I
finally went along with that now tremendously important expression, "God as we
understand Him" -- this expression having been coined, I think, by one of our
former atheist members.

This was indeed a ten-strike. That one has since enabled thousands to join AA
who would have otherwise gone away. It enabled people of fine religious
training and those of none at all to associate freely and to work together. It
made one's religion the business of the A.A. member himself and not that of his
society.

[WHEN BILL W. DID HIS FIFTH STEP, HE DID IT WITH FATHER ED DOWLING, A JESUIT
PRIEST, WHO THEREFORE INTERPRETED IT IN TERMS OF THE IGNATIAN EXERCISES -- what
this means is, that Bill W. had by this point totally grown away from the Oxford
Group's idea that we had to do our confession, restitution, and so on -- AND
start practicing moral virtues with almost absolute perfection -- within a few
days or weeks! Bill W. was now understanding moral growth in the way that Father
Ed Dowling and the Ignatian exercises did, as a life-long process in which it
took years to ferret out all of the moral failings hidden down in our
characters. Jesuit priests regularly go off on retreats, once a year sometimes,
to go through the Ignatian exercises once again. G.C.]

That AA's Twelve Steps have since been in such high esteem by the Church, that
members of the Jesuit Order have repeatedly drawn attention to the similarity
between them and the Ignatian Exercises, is a matter for our great wonder and
gratitude indeed.

0 -1 0 0
6261 stevec012000
Re: Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? 1/20/2010 7:15:00 PM

The Big Book mentions on pages 159-160:

[Bill W. and Dr. Bob had gotten Bill Dotson
sober in June 1935. AA in Akron grew slowly
but steadily during the months that followed.]

"A year and six months later these three had suc-
ceeded with seven more. Seeing much of each other,
scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not
shelter a little gathering of men and women, happy in
their release, and constantly thinking how they might
present their discovery to some newcomer. In addi-
tion to these casual get-togethers, it became customary
to set apart one night a week for a meeting to be at-
tended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual
way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability,
the prime object was to provide a time and place
where new people might bring their problems."

"Outsiders became interested. One man and his wife
placed their large home at the disposal of this
strangely assorted crowd. This couple has since be-
come so fascinated that they have dedicated their
home to the word. Many a distracted wife has visited
this house to find loving and understanding compan-
ionship among women who knew her problem, to
hear from the lips of their husbands what had hap-
pened to them, to be advised how her own wayward
mate might be hospitalized and approached when
next he stumbled."

0 -1 0 0
6262 bent_christensen5
Re: Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? 1/20/2010 1:37:00 PM

Good question. It has been discussed before,
and you'll be able to find one good answer
among many in message #5300.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5300

How early AA meetings were held in Akron and Cleveland

Shortly before his death in 1984, Bob E.

[This was Robert Evans, see list of First 226 Members
http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc ]

shared ... the following recollection of what
AA was like when he first joined:

<http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>

I never led meetings (neither did Dr. Bob) or
talked into a microphone. Nobody led our
meetings in the very early days. We all just
sat around in a circle. After the opening
prayer and a short text from the Bible, we had
quiet time, silently praying for guidance
about what to say. Then each person in turn
said something, asking for any help he wanted,
bringing up anything that was troubling him or
just whatever was on his mind. After everyone
was through, there were announcements and we
held hands and said the Lord's Prayer ....

For the first five years we met in someone's
home every night ....

In that first group, Dr. Bob selected the readings
and made all the appointments and all the major
decisions. (I was the first secretary of the
group and the following year became chairman.)
Everyone had to make a complete surrender to
join in the first place, and so we had no
reservations; we worked the whole program,
100 percent ....

We did not tell our drinking histories at
the meetings back then. We did not need to.
A man's sponsor and Dr. Bob knew the details.
Frankly, we did not think it was anybody
else's business. We were anonymous and so was
our life. Besides, we already knew how to
drink. What we wanted to learn was how to get
sober and stay sober.

Bill Wilson was in favor of having at least
fifty percent of an AA member's talk at a
meeting consist of "qualifying" or telling the
story of how he became an alcoholic. Bill
himself had a warm, friendly disposition, and
this idea of his did attract people and enable
the movement to grow to a size where it had
helped thousands of people all over the world.
For that we must be grateful.

But when the "qualifying" business first
began, it took some getting used to on our
part. I remember one time when we were
meeting at King School; some people came in
from Cleveland, and most of the qualifying
they did was really very bad. They clapped and
made a lot of noise. To us it seemed strange
and offensive. Gradually we opened up under
Bill's persuasive influence. But we still did
not care for it when people would get carried
away by their own voice and make their stories
too sensational and repulsive.

0 -1 0 0
6263 James Blair
Re: Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? Early meeting format: were they all speaker meetings? 1/20/2010 2:40:00 PM

From James Blair, Beverly, and Ben Humphreys

- - - -

From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

I can only speak for Quebec.

All AA meetings up to the early sixties were
closed meetings but we did have open meetings
which were in fact public meetings.

These meeting were organized with social
services, medicine, courts and AA. They were
held in a large hall on the first Sunday night
of each month and they would draw from 75 to
300 persons. They were well advertised on
radio and in newspapers.

Representatives of different agencies would
speak about the impact of alcoholism on families
and individuals. The AA speaker would go last.

It was at these meeting that the practice of
stating "my name is Joe B. and I'm an alcoholic"
got started in our province. At the closed
meetings people did not do that.

Jim

- - - -

From: bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com)

I go to a meeting in Tucson, Arizona.

Matt l. has 58 years of sobriety. He was one
of the fortunate to be helped by Dr. Silkworth
for his alcoholism. He told his story at
Founders Day here and stated that all of the
first meetings were speaker meetings. He also
said that men back then wore suits, shirts and
ties. He still dresses up to this day.

Beverly

- - - -

From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>
(blhump272 at sctv.coop)

From 1975 on my experience has been the same as
now. Not all speaker meetings.

I am like you, in talking to old timers from
1940 on they were not all speaker meetings but
open and closed meetings and speaker meetings
were on the agenda.

Ben H.

0 -1 0 0
6264 Hugh D. Hyatt
Re: Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs Swedenborgianism and the Burnham family''s religious beliefs 1/22/2010 3:50:00 PM

It said in Message #6199 from LD Pierce
<eztone@hotmail.com> (eztone at hotmail.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6199

"In reading this post and a couple of others
I decided to do some reading tonite on the
Swedenborgian religion and their movment ....

Their religion even included 12 steps to heaven!!"

- - - -

Swedenborg's theological writings include a single occurrence of the
phrase "twelve steps:"

> They [angels with whom Swedenborg spoke] picture wisdom, they said,
> as a wonderfully elegant palace with twelve steps leading up to it.
> No one gets to the first step except with the Lord's help and by
> union with him, and for all of us, the ascent depends on that union.
> The higher we climb, the more clearly we realize that no one is wise
> on her or his own, but only from the Lord. We also realize that
> relative to what we do not know, what we do know is like a droplet
> compared to a vast lake. The twelve steps to the palace of wisdom
> mean whatever is good united to what is true and whatever is true
> united to what is good.

This is from his book /Divine Providence/, paragraph #36.

As a lifelong Swedenborgian and recovering alcoholic myself, I would say
that the closest thing that Swedenborg has to A.A.'s twelve steps are
the four steps of repentance described in paragraph #530 of his work
/True Christian Religion./ After explaining the necessity of
repentance, Swedenborg says:

> The question therefore is, How ought man to repent? And
> the reply is, Actually; that is to say, he must examine himself,
> recognize and acknowledge his sins, pray to the Lord, and begin a
> new life.

A number of years ago, I corresponded with a Swedenborgian minister who
had interviewed Lois Wilson. He asked specifically about the influence
of Swedenborgianism on A.A. and Al-Anon. As I recall, her response was
completely non-committal, saying that even if some particular religion
/had/ had significant influence, she couldn't very well say so, could she?

--
Hugh H.
Willow Grove, PA

The love of one's country is a splendid thing.
But why should love stop at the border.
-- Pablo Casals

0 -1 0 0
6265 J. Lobdell
RE: Bob E. (AA #11) Bob E. (AA #11) 1/22/2010 3:52:00 PM

He was born in Akron June 19 1904 and died there
in February 1977.

The Silkworth site gives the following material
and references on him:

"Bob E. - wealthy banker, joined A.A. February
1937, made AA address books, member Akron's
wealthiest families [C 132] [D 101, 116-19,
122-23, 142, 146, 152, 156-57, 176, 217, 221-23]
[N 53]"

I haven't checked the references.

The list of sober members provided for Frank
Amos shows him with 16 months sobriety at a
time when Dr. Bob had 33 and Bill D. had 32,
thus in March 1938. This would put Bob E's
sobriety to November 1936, before he "came in"
in February 1937.

His father William H. E. was President of the
Bank.

- - - -

From Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana):

The list of the First 226 Members of the
Akron, Ohio AA Group
http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc

has Robert E. with an X by his name,
which seems to mean that he was counted
as one of the first 27 members.

His address is given as 657 East Ave., Akron,
Ohio. In those days in Akron, would that have
been a fancy address, the sort of place a
wealthy banker would live? That would be one
way of checking to see whether that claim
was true.

0 -1 0 0
6266 James Bliss
The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 1/22/2010 6:30:00 PM

I was reminded of a story which I have heard
in AA about someone in Alaska who found a
Big Book in the bottom of a rain barrel and
got sober reading it.

Is there any historical fact behind this story?

Thanks,

Jim

0 -1 0 0
6267 Jay Pees
Re: Henry (Hank) P. Henry (Hank) P. 1/21/2010 3:55:00 PM

And his funeral is listed as January 22.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 2:52 PM, jax760
<jax760@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Chuck,
>
> The information you require can by found in the
> New Jersey Herald, January 27, 1954. Although
> I do not have a copy I believe it lists the date
> as January 18th.
>
> Regards
>
>
> "Chuck Parkhurst" <ineedpage63@...> wrote:
> >
> > I am looking for a confirmation with source
> > reference, for the date of death for Henry
> > "Hank" Parkhurst. I have seen his death
> > reported as 1/18 and 1/21, each time in the
> > year 1954.

0 -1 0 0
6268 Edward
Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 1/23/2010 6:03:00 AM

This story is quoted in _As Bill Sees It_ p. 245
- the reference given is to _AA Comes Of Age_
pp. 82-83 ...

Y'all's in service
Ted G.

- - - -

Also from From: Jay Pees <racewayjay@gmail.com>

- - - -

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, James Bliss
<james.bliss@...> wrote:
>
> I was reminded of a story which I have heard
> in AA about someone in Alaska who found a
> Big Book in the bottom of a rain barrel and
> got sober reading it.
>
> Is there any historical fact behind this story?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>

0 -1 0 0
6269 Bill Lash
Re: How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? How quickly should the twelve steps be taken? 1/23/2010 1:45:00 PM

Maybe I'm missing something here but please indulge me a few more thought
about this. I feel this is an important point for all of us so I just want
to make clear what I see being said here so that there is no
misunderstanding. What it says on page 98 & 99 of Ernie's wonderful book
"Not God" is as follows:

"Not since his earliest days in the Oxford Group had Wilson felt himself in
the loving presence of such a receptive listener. Then, Bill had unburdened
himself especially to Ebby. But it was only now, as this evening with
Father Dowling wore on, that the man who had written A.A.'s Fifth Step came
to feel that he himself was finally "taking his Fifth." He told Dowling not
only what he had done and had left undone - he went on to share with his new
sponsor the thoughts and feelings behind those actions and omissions."

And then in "Bill's Story" in the Big Book on page 13 Bill writes:

"At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment
seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens.
"There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then I understood Him, to do
with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and
direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that
without Him I was lost. I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to
have my new-found Friend take them away, root and branch. I have not had a
drink since.
"My schoolmate visited me, and I fully acquainted him with my problems and
deficiencies."

Ernie is stating above in his own book that Bill did his FIRST 5th Step when
he first got sober ("Not since his earliest days in the Oxford Group...Bill
had unburdened himself especially to Ebby" & then in the Big Book while Bill
was still in Towns Hospital "I fully acquainted him with my problems and
deficiencies", both of these descriptions are of the Oxford Group's version
of a 5th Step), and then Bill did ANOTHER 5th Step with Fr. Dowling. The
only way you can say that Bill's sharing with Fr. Dowling was Bill's "first"
5th Step was because when Bill shared with Ebby when he got sober in 1938
there were no 12 Steps yet, so in 1938 they wouldn't have called it a 5th
Step. Nevertheless, using today's AA language, Bill DID do his FIRST 5th
Step when he first got sober, NOT only after finally meeting Fr. Dowling.

Also, Ernie mentions below about Bill's sharing his 5th Step with Fr.
Dowling that:

"Bill felt for the first time completely cleansed and freed".

Bill ALSO describes in the Big Book how he felt from his original 5th Step
with Ebby (along with the other Oxford Group work that he did, which later
became the 12 Steps) that:

"...the effect was electric. There was a sense of victory, followed by such
a peace and serenity as I had never known. There was utter confidence. I
felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew
through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me
was sudden and profound."

Both 5th Steps had a large effect on Bill. After the one he did with Ebby,
Bill never drank again!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

0 -1 0 0
6270 Edward
Re: Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings 1/23/2010 6:06:00 AM

There is a recording of Paul K., an early member
who attended meetings with Dr. Bob at King School,
sharing about this experience many years later
from the podium -- it is available for free at:

http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1850

Y'all's in service,

Ted G.

0 -1 0 0
6271 J. Lobdell
Re: Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11) Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11) 1/23/2010 1:43:00 PM

The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984, does not
agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their article
are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which was begun
March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the Record of
Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he would still have
been the longest-sober member of A.A.

But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD Feb 1938)
was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober member, which
suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.

Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death date in
the AAA publication.

- - - -

Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262
"Re: Early meeting format"):

"SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,
Bob E. shared ... the following recollection
of what AA was like when he first joined"

IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:
<http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>

SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"

AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"

0 -1 0 0
6272 Bill Lash
Bill W. Died Today (Jan. 24) in 1971 Bill W. Died Today (Jan. 24) in 1971 1/24/2010 2:06:00 PM

In the summer 1966 two A.A. members from the White Plains NY area drove to
Stepping Stones & had an appointment with Bill W. One of these members,
John S., went in & talked with Bill W. for about a half hour while the
other memebr, Bob C., waited outside. Bob C. was a sponsee of John S., John
S. was a reporter for the New York Times & Bill W. had asked him to come.
What Bill wanted was to write his own obituary because he knew that if
someone else tried to do it they may not get it right. This all happened
five years BEFORE Bill finally died on this date (January 24) in 1971. Also
at that time in 1966, Bill W. gave John permission to break Bill's anonymity
in the article that John put out at the time of Bill's death. Bill also
asked John not to say anything about the pre-written obituary until Bill
died. That is why the original New York Times obituary (below) had no
reporter's name, because John S. really didn't write it, Bill did. All that
John added to the article was the particulars around Bill's death. The
story about Bill's obituary has been left unknown until a few years ago when
Jack H. from Scottsdale AZ had a conversation with Bob C., who was living in
Mesa AZ at the time & who just recently passed away at age 82 with over 50
years sober. This same Bob C. was the man who waited outside for John S. &
Bill W. when the original obituary was written in 1966.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill


Bill W., 75, Dies; Co-founder Of Alcoholics Anonymous
Jan. 27, 1971 - New York Times News Service

NEW YORK — William Griffith Wilson died late Sunday night and, with the
announcement of his death, was revealed to have been the Bill W. who
cofounded Alcoholics Anonymous in l935. He was 75.

The retired Wall Street securities analyst had expected to die or to go
insane as a hopeless drunk 36 years ago but – after what he called a
dramatic spiritual experience – sobered up and stayed sober.

He leaves a program of recovery as a legacy to 47,000 acknowledged
alcoholics in 15,000 A.A. groups throughout the United States and in 18
other countries.

Wife Aided Work

Mr. Wilson, whose twangy voice and economy of words reflected his New
England origin, died of pneumonia and cardiac complication a few hours after
he had been flown by private plane to the Miami Heart Institute in Miami
Beach from his home in Bedford Hills, NY.

At his bedside was his wife, Lois, who had remained by him during his years
as a “falling down” drunk and who later had worked at his side to aid other
alcoholics. She is a founder of the Al-Anon and Alateen groups, which deal
with the fears and insecurity suffered by spouses and children of problem
drinkers.

Mr. Wilson last spoke publicly last July 5 in a three minute talk he
delivered after struggling from a wheelchair to the lectern at the closing
session of A.A.'s 35th anniversary international convention in Miami,
attended by 11,000 persons. He had been admitted three days earlier to the
Miami Heart Institute, his emphysema complicated by pneumonia.

Last Oct. 10, he was under hospital care for acute emphysema and was unable
for the first time to attend the A.A. banquet at which his “last-drink
anniversary” has been celebrated annually. His greetings were delivered by
his wife to the 2,200 A.A. members and guests at the New York Hilton.

Mr. Wilson gave permission to break his A.A. anonymity upon his death in a
signed statement in 1966. The role of Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith as the other
founder of the worldwide fellowship was disclosed publicly when the Akron
Ohio, surgeon died of cancer in 1950.

As Bill W., Mr. Wilson shared what be termed his “experience, strength and
hope” in hundreds of talks and writings, but in turn – mindful that he
himself was “just another guy named Bill who can’t handle booze” – he heeded
the counsel of fellow alcoholics, and declined a salary for his work in
behalf of the fellowship.

He supported himself, and later his wife, on royalties from four A.A.
books — “Alcoholics Anonymous,” “The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions,”
“Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age” and “The A.A. Way of Life.”

Explained Anonymity

In fathering the doctrine that members should not reveal their A.A.
affiliation at the public level, Bill W. had explained that “anonymity isn’t
just something to save us from alcoholic shame and stigma; its deeper
purpose is to keep those fool egos of ours from running hog wild after money
and fame at A.A,’s expense.”

He cited the example of a nationally known radio personality who wrote an
autobiography. disclosing his A.A membership and then spent the royalties
crawling the pubs on West 52nd Street.”

Frankness Impressed

In the program’s early years, Mrs. Wilson worked in a department store to
augment the family income.

Over the years, the gaunt, 6-foot cofounder’s wavy brown hair turned wispy
white, and his step slowed. In 1962 he retired from active administration of
A.A. affairs and returned to part-time activity in Wall Street. He continued
to speak in New York at dinner meeting celebrating the anniversaries of his
recovery.

Mr. Wilson shunned oratory and euphemisms and impressed listeners with the
simplicity and frankness of his A.A. “story”:

In his native East Dorset, VT., where he was born Nov. 26,1895, and where be
attended a two-room elementary school, he recalled, “I was tall and gawky
and I felt pretty bad about it because the smarter kids could push me
around. I remember being very depressed for a year or more, then I developed
a fierce resolve to win – to be a No. 1 man.”

Strength Limited

Bill, whose physical strength and coordination were limited, was goaded by a
deep sense of inferiority, yet became captain of his high school baseball
team. He learned to play the violin well enough to lead the school
orchestra.

He majored in engineering at Norwich University for three years, then
enrolled in officers training school when the United States entered World
War I. He married Lois Burnham, a Brooklyn physician’s daughter he had met
on vacation in Manchester, Vt.

At Army camp In New Bedford, Mass,, 2nd Lt. Wilson of the 66th Coast
Artillery and fellow officers were entertained by patriotic hostesses, and
Bill W. was handed his first drink, a Bronx cocktail. Gone, soon, was his
sense of inferiority.

Wife Concerned

“In those Roaring Twenties,” he remembered, “I was drinking to dream great
dreams of greater power.” His wife became increasingly concerned, but he
assured her that “men of genius conceive their best projects when drunk.”

In the crash of 1929, Mr. Wilson’s funds melted away, but his
self-confidence failed to drop. “When men were leaping to their deaths from
the towers of high finance,” he noted, “I was disgusted and refused to jump.
I went back to the bar. I said, and I believed, ‘that I can build this up
once more.’ But I didn’t. My alcoholic obsession had already condemned me. I
became a hanger-on in Wall Street.”

Numbing doses of bathtub gin, bootleg whisky and New Jersey applejack became
Bill W.’s panacea for all his problems.

Visited by Companion

Late in 1934, he was visited by an old barroom companion, Ebby T., who
disclosed that he had attained freedom from a drinking compulsion with help
from the First Century Christian Fellowship (now Moral Rearmament); a
movement founded in England by the late Dr. Frank N. D. Buchman and often
called the Oxford Group. Bill W. was deeply impressed and was desperate, but
he said he had not yet reached that level of degradation below which he was
unwilling to descend. He felt he had one more prolonged drunk left in him.

Sick, depressed and clutching a bottle of beer, Bill W. staggered a month
later into Towns Hospital, an upper Manhattan institution for treatment of
alcoholism and drug addiction. Dr William Duncan Silkworth, his friend, put
him to bed.

Mr. Wilson recalled then what. Ebby T. had told him: “You admit you are
licked; you get honest with yourself… you pray to whatever God you think
there is, even as an experiment.” Bill W. found himself crying out:

“If there is a God, let him show himself, I am ready to do anything,
anything!”

“Suddenly,” he related. “the room lit up with a great white light. I was
caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to describe. It seemed
that a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me
that I was a free man.”

Recovering slowly and fired with enthusiasm, Mr. Wilson envisioned a chain
reaction among drunks, one carrying the message of recovery to the next.
Emphasizing at first his spiritual regeneration, and working closely with
Oxford Groupers, he struggled for months to “sober up the world,” but got
almost nowhere.

“Look Bill,” Dr. Silkworth cautioned, “you are preaching at those alkies.
You are talking about the Oxford precepts of absolute honesty, purity,
unselfishness and love. Give them the medical business, and give it to ‘em
hard, about the obsession that condemns them to drink. That – coming from
one alcoholic to another – may crack those tough egos deep down.”

Mr. Wilson thereafter concentrated on the basic philosophy that alcoholism
is a physical allergy coupled with a mental obsession – an incurable though
arrestable – illness of body., mind and spirit. Much later, the disease
concept of alcoholism was accepted by a committee of the American Medical
Association and by the World Health Organization.

Still dry six months after emerging from the hospital, Mr. Wilson went to
Akron to participate in a stock proxy fight. He lost, and was about to lose
another bout as he paced outside a bar in the lobby of the Mayflower Hotel.
Panicky, he groped for inner strength and remembered that. he had thus far
stayed sober trying to help other alcoholics.

Through Oxford Group channels that night, he gained an introduction to Dr.
Smith, a surgeon and fellow Vermonter who had vainly sought medical cures
and religious help for his compulsive drinking.

Bill W. discussed with the doctor his former drinking pattern and his
eventual release from compulsion.

“Bill was the first living human with whom I had ever talked who
intelligently discussed my problem from actual experience,” Dr. Bob, as he
became known, said later. “He talked my language.”

0 -1 0 0
6273 Frank Nyikos
AA book study group in Milford AA book study group in Milford 1/24/2010 9:42:00 AM

The Milford Study Meeting held on Thursday nights in Milford, Indiana has been
going on continuously now for over four and a half years (we were hoping for 6
months at best in the beginning).

We are currently on our seventh book and as you can see below time is not the
element:

**Little Red Book - 8/11/05 - 6/29/06 (we had copies of the current edition, but
also copies of the original 1946 edition and the 1949 edition, the last one
where Dr. Bob had any input)
**Changed By Grace - 7/6/06 - 3/2/07
**Emmet Fox, Sermon on the Mount - 3/29/07 - 11/15/09
**Ernie Kurtz, Shame & Guilt - 11/29/07 1/17/08
**Father Ralph Pfau, Sobriety & Beyond - 1/24/08 - 9/4/08
**God & Spirituality - 9/11/08 - 10/22/09
**William James, Varieties of Religious Experience - 10/29/09 - present

People have been driving from an hour away or more, even through the snow and
ice of a northern Indiana winter. We do not call it an AA group or meeting
(since others are invited) nor is it formally registered with General Service
Office so that the question of what books we can or cannot read becomes a dead
letter. However, we DO send contributions regularly to GSO as the Milford,
Indiana Study Meeting. This has been acceptable since contributions come from AA
people.

When AA newcomers show up we do suggest that they go to a regular AA meeting
which goes over the basics but still encourage them to attend here for extra
information if they are so inclined.

Most of us have around twenty or more years in the program. None of the people
who have continued to attend regularly have 'slipped,' reverted to drinking
again, or diminished in the least their dedications, attendance, and continuing
work in AA. Although we have had a few newcomers who showed up for a few weeks
and then disappeared we have no idea how AA itself affected them or if they did
stop drinking since we had no further contact, leaving us unknowing what if any
effect may have happened. As mentioned before, those who continue to attend are
still deeply involved in sponsorship, conference planning, committees and other
activities of the sort over the years. We do NOT see this study group as a
substitute for participation in the regular AA fellowship, but merely as a
SUPPLEMENT. We also abide by group conscience in all matters.

At the beginning, back in 2005, every member of our group gave suggestions about
books that might be worthwhile reading. So now, when we approach the end of one
book, we look at that list and just take a group conscience on which one to read
next. We read through these books sentence by sentence and then discuss each
part as much as we feel is necessary, stopping wherever and then continuing
where we left off so we don't just speed through them.

If you are not sure what would be a good list of books to consider, another
place where you could find one, would be Charlie Bishop's list of Fifty Books
Tracing AA's History at http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html

I am posting this because I recently learned from John S. in Fort Wayne,
Indiana, who comes to Milford every week, that our idea here at Milford seems to
be spreading to other places.

John writes the "John Barleycorn" A.A. column -- good stuff -- for a couple of
examples see "The Right Side of the Page" http://hindsfoot.org/barright.html and
"Whack-A-Mole" http://hindsfoot.org/barmole.html

Anyway, John told me the other day:
______________________________

"One of the men I sponsor named Tommy R. told others in his home group about
Milford and they decided to start a similar group north of the Fort. My son John
and some of his friends in Wisconsin are talking about starting a book study
group there too. There's so much knowledge and wisdom recorded in books since
the printing press was created and it's a real shame that most of it is going
undigested because of modern electronic media. Perhaps I'm resistant to change,
but it seems to me the more television and electronic games that are played, the
dumber our civilization is getting? I cannot change such a trend but
nevertheless choose to keep on reading."
______________________________

Perhaps there are other parts of the world where AA people might be interested
in trying something like this.

If so, there are many other items that have come up which we have solved
successfully and we would be happy to share should anyone have questions. You
can contact at the following email address: fenyikos@hoosierlink.net

0 -1 0 0
6274 mdingle76
Re: Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11) Early meeting format AND Bob E. (AA #11) 1/23/2010 11:37:00 PM

I like to speak for the "All Addicts Anonymous" people for I work for 24
Communications — the publishing group of AAA — which originally put out 24
Magazine. The article that J. Lobell refers to was written for 24 Magazine in
September 1976 (6 months before the book "Dr. Bob and the Good oldtimers" was on
the launching pad.) Yes, J. Lobell is right — the interview that we recorded of
Bob E. (used in the Sept 1976, 24 Magazine) was later used in the "Dr. Bob"
book. (It is believed that we still have the tape recording of this interview
and that there was much more said by Bob E. not used in the article — although,
I haven't bumped into the tape in our archives yet.)

The Sept 1976 article said: "Bob E. is the senior living member of Alcoholics
Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the eleventh man to join the fellowship.
He still lives today in Akron, Ohio, as he did when he came into the Akron group
— the first Alcoholics Anonymous group — back in 1936. Not long ago he shared
with us the following recollections of what AA was like in the days when he came
in . . . "

Now, in 1990, 24 Communications tried to publish several 12 step books through
Harper (one was called "Bill Wilson and the 12 Steps," another one was "Dr. Bob
and the 12 Steps," etc., etc.) Well, the "Dr. Bob and the 12 steps" book had
featured the Bob E. article with a few minor changes — on of them being the
death date of Bob E. as 1984. It said: "Bob E., until his death in 1984, was the
senior living member of Alcoholics Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the
eleventh man to join the fellowship. . ."

Does anybody else have any ideas or information about this?

Matt D.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:
>
> The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984, does not
agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their article
are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which was begun
March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the Record of
Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he would still have
been the longest-sober member of A.A.
>
> But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD Feb
1938) was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober member,
which suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.
>
> Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death date in
the AAA publication.
>
> - - - -
>
> Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262
> "Re: Early meeting format"):
>
> "SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,
> Bob E. shared ... the following recollection
> of what AA was like when he first joined"
>
> IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:
> <http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>
>
> SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"
>
> AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"
>

0 -1 0 0
6275 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings Early meeting format: Paul K. on King School meetings 1/24/2010 6:00:00 AM

This is a really good tape. The 1st hand
experience of early Akron (Dr Bob) AA from this
man who had 46 years when the tape was recorded
in 1988.

The meeting was a family meeting since the
disease was a family disease and never closed
at any set time. There was no prayer at the end
of the meeting with members holding hands and
saying a prayer,rather they all went into
silent prayer and meditation individually.

He explains working the steps and sponsorship
as it was originally done. His explanation of
the history of AA is as he remembers it.

Great praise for Dr Bob,and Anne.

Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, PA

- - - -

In a message dated 1/23/2010 elg3_79@yahoo.com
writes:

There is a recording of Paul K., an early member
who attended meetings with Dr. Bob at King School,
sharing about this experience many years later
from the podium -- it is available for free at:

http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1850

Y'all's in service,

Ted G.

0 -1 0 0
6276 Harriet Dodd
Having employers read the chapter To Employers Having employers read the chapter To Employers 1/25/2010 10:25:00 AM

Dear History Lovers

Would you please be able to give me some
information on the chapter "To Employers."

I would like to know, was it a procedure to
take the Big Book into the work place, and ask
employers to read the book (or that particular
chapter)?

Did they recommend that employers use the Big
Book, or how was it known about?

I couldnt find anything specific on the group
blogs.

Thanks very much,

Harriet

- - - -

From the moderator: Harriet is asking if we
have any stories of AA people taking copies
of the Big Book to employers during the early
days, to ask if they had any alcoholic
employees they could work with, or whatever.
It seems like I may have heard of that, but I
can't remember where.

Does anyone in the group know how Mrs. Marty
Mann recommended approaching businesses
where it was known that they had problems
with alcoholism among their employees?

It seems to me that when the EAP movement
started later on (Employee Assistance Progam),
that they found that it was easier to get
employees actually to come in, if they just
put it (at the public level) in terms of general
assistance with any kind of problem. But in
fact they found that in the majority of the
cases, alcohol and/or drugs were the cause of
all the other problems (marital, financial,
absenteeism, etc.).

I know we have members of the AAHistoryLovers
who have led EAP's, who could tell us more
about that.

G.C.

0 -1 0 0
6277 bbthumpthump
Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/25/2010 9:17:00 AM

I read on Wikipedia that Bill had his White
Light Spiritual Experience while under the
effects of Charles Towns' Belladonna Cure,
which evokes hallucinations in the patient.

What can you tell me about this?

- - - -

From the moderator:

Belladonna was part of the Towns' treatment,
used to help keep the patient from going into
major DT's. If Bill W. was given belladonna on
this, his fourth visit to Towns (and in fact,
we don't really know the answer to this for
sure, based on my reading),

would that much of the belladonna still have been
in his system at the time of his vision of
light?

Could belladonna have given this sort of white
light experience as a hallucination? The
descriptions of belladonna intoxication seem
to be saying that it was like the hallucinations
accompanying the DT's, only a little milder,
and what you experience when you're having DT's
is most definitely NOT Bill's report of a
positive and fulfilling experience of relief
and freedom.

All in all, the descriptions I have read of
what belladonna does to you don't sound
anything remotely like Bill W.'s white light
experience:

Belladonna produces dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision,
tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry mouth
and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion,
hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The plant's deadly symptoms are
caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's ability
to regulate non-volitional/subconscious activities such as sweating, breathing,
and heart rate. Its anticholinergic properties will cause in humans the
disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning.

That sure doesn't sound like Bill W.'s
mountain top experience to me!

But have any of our members ever had experience
with taking belladonna, perhaps in their
misspent youths? What actually happens when
you take the stuff?

Also be sure and see Bill Lash's excellent and
very thorough study of all this in Message #1493
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1493

Bill Lash describes all the stuff that was involved
in the treatment, etc., etc.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
6278 diazeztone
Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter 1/25/2010 2:45:00 PM

Interesting ---- is Clyde B. ("Freeman Carpenter")
still alive?

(Clyde has email and website selling that
book and others: www.freemancarpenter.com )

LD Pierce
aabibliography.com

- - - -

"J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:
>
> My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto
2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941?
He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think,
in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober
before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober).

There is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20 1946
and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER
(under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.
>

0 -1 0 0
6279 jax760
Re: Bob E. (AA #11) Bob E. (AA #11) 1/25/2010 2:45:00 PM

As someone had pointed out previously there is a discrepancy in Bob's sober date
detailed below in this excerpt from the manuscript the Golden Road of Devotion,
Chapter Four "And We Began To Count Noses"

"We return to Akron to find Bob Evans. According to The Amos Roster, Bob had
been dry sixteen months, dating his entry as October of 1936. Bob was a wealthy
banker and is mentioned extensively in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers (Note 64)
Bob seems to vividly recall his entry in the fellowship, according to his taped
or transcribed interview that the author of DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers
refers to, as February of 1937 (Note 65) The difference between the two
accounts, Evans' and Dr. Bob's, as to when Bob Evans arrived on the scene is
frustrating and certainly leaves us with yet another unanswered question."

"DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers states that "Bob E." (Robert Evans) came into AA
in February of 1937(Note 66) Unfortunately, this statement is not given a
reference source (Note 67), although later it is referenced to the 1954
recording or transcript frequently cited and appears to be the recollections of
Bob Evans himself. (Note 68) For now we will defer to DR. BOB and the Good
Oldtimers and place Bob Evans on our list in 1937."

"It is our position, that The Amos Roster as now introduced, is the most
accurate source of information now available on the early Akron members. Being
written by Dr. Bob in or before February of 1938, should rightly be considered
more authoritative then sources previously used including the memory of various
individuals who were sources for, or the authors of, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes
Of Age, DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers and Pass It On."

"It is also interesting to note that The Amos Roster, as we have named it, or
Dr. Bob's list is not referenced in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, leading this
writer to believe that the document (The Amos Roster) was not known or made
available to its author. (Note 69)"

Note 64 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 101,116-119,122
123,142,146,152,156-157,176,217,221-223.

Note 65 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 353, Sources, see 116-119 citing C,
T, 1954 (B). See p.101, Feb 37 Sobriety Date

Note 66 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 101

Note 67 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 352, Sources, see 101 lines 10-11 are
not referenced or cited.

Note 68 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; p. 353, Sources, see 116-119 citing C,
T, 1954 (B).

Note 69 DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers; pages 128-135.

The "Amos Roster" refers to Dr Bob's hand written list of members provided to
Frank Amos in February of 1938. (See Below)

The Amos Report

Many of us are familiar with the events following the "counting of noses" which
took place in Akron during the second week of October 1937. (Note 1) Bill was
introduced to Willard Richardson, one of John D. Rockefeller's closest
associates, by his brother-in-law Dr. Leonard Strong. After several meetings
with Rockefeller's advisors, Frank Amos made a visit to Akron in mid February of
1938 to get a first hand look at Dr. Bob and the group of recovered drunks. His
account of that visit, which was titled "THE NOTES ON AKRON, OHIO SURVEY by
FRANK AMOS" is well documented in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers (Note 2) and to
a lesser extent in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age (Note 3) and Pass It On
(Note 4)

The account of Amos's Akron visit given in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, as
well as the other publications, omits one very important detail, that a list of
the early Akron members was attached to The Amos Report. The likely reason for
this key omission is because the list was not attached or included with The Amos
Report filed in the GSO archives. A copy of this list, which was written by Dr.
Bob on his office stationary, has recently been provided to the Archivist at
GSO.

This list of the pioneering Akron members, which we have dubbed "The Amos
Roster", is described below in an excerpt from a copy of The Amos Report (Note
5) It may prove to be the first written list of members ever produced by one of
our co-founders.

"Alcoholic Group
There are now some fifty men, and, I believe, two women former alcoholics, all
considered practically incurable by physicians, who have been reformed and so
far have remained teetotalers. A list of some of them is attached giving their
business, the length in months they have been "dry", the period in years they
were drinking, and their present age."


Notes:

1. Chapter IV, The Golden Road of Devotion
2. DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, pages 128-134
3. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, pages 148-150
4. Pass It On, pages 181-187
5. 2/23/1938 (B)

Finally,

Many of us are guilty of perpetuating misinformation when we state that Joe Q
Alcoholic was AA # "xyz"

After Bill Dotson there are precious few definitive dates or information on who
got sober and when. The Amos Roster is an excellent source of info and must be
considered "authoritative" but also has some nagging inconsistencies. We know
they were counting members in New York and Akron seperately. For some, they
factored in a slip into their sober time, for others they reset the clock. Still
others appear to have been deleted after they relapsed and din't come back (i.e
Phil Smith, Walter Bray, Harold Grisinger)The research I have done on the First
Forty which I believe has better sources and citations then previous works
posted on the internet shows that Bob Evans was the 23rd person to join the
fellowship. These people below all appear to have "joined the fellowship"
(meaning were trying to get or stay sober in the Oxford Group or with the help
of Dr. Bob) before him.


1 Bill Wilson Dec 34 NY
2 Bob Smith May 35 Akron
3 Bill Dotson June 35 Akron
4 Ernie Galbraith July 35 Akron
5 Henry Parkhurst Sept 35 NJ
6 Walter Bray Sept 35 Akron
7 Phil Smith Oct 35 Akron
8 John Mayo Nov 35 MD
9 Silas Bent Nov 35 CT
10 Harold Grisinger Jan 36 Akron
11 Paul Stanley Jan 36 Akron
12 Tom Lucas Feb 36 Akron
13 Myron Williams Apr 36 NY
14 Joseph Doppler Apr 36 Cleveland
15 Robert Oviatt June 36 Cleveland
16 Harry Latta July 36 Akron
17 James Holmes Sept 36 Akron
18 Alfred Smith Jan 37 Akron
19 Alvin Borden Jan 37 Akron
20 Howard Searl Jan 37 Akron
21 William Ruddell Feb 37 NJ
22 Douglas Delanoy Feb 37 NJ
23 Robert Evans Feb 37 Akron

List is from the manuscript "The Golden Road of Devotion"...devoted History
Lovers might wish to compare these names to the Akron 226 List and or 100 list
"PIONEERS BY DATE OF SOBRIETY".

God Bless

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "mdingle76" <mdingle76@...> wrote:
>
> I like to speak for the "All Addicts Anonymous" people for I work for 24
Communications — the publishing group of AAA — which originally put out 24
Magazine. The article that J. Lobell refers to was written for 24 Magazine in
September 1976 (6 months before the book "Dr. Bob and the Good oldtimers" was on
the launching pad.) Yes, J. Lobell is right — the interview that we recorded of
Bob E. (used in the Sept 1976, 24 Magazine) was later used in the "Dr. Bob"
book. (It is believed that we still have the tape recording of this interview
and that there was much more said by Bob E. not used in the article — although,
I haven't bumped into the tape in our archives yet.)
>
> The Sept 1976 article said: "Bob E. is the senior living member of Alcoholics
Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the eleventh man to join the fellowship.
He still lives today in Akron, Ohio, as he did when he came into the Akron group
— the first Alcoholics Anonymous group — back in 1936. Not long ago he shared
with us the following recollections of what AA was like in the days when he came
in . . . "
>
> Now, in 1990, 24 Communications tried to publish several 12 step books through
Harper (one was called "Bill Wilson and the 12 Steps," another one was "Dr. Bob
and the 12 Steps," etc., etc.) Well, the "Dr. Bob and the 12 steps" book had
featured the Bob E. article with a few minor changes — on of them being the
death date of Bob E. as 1984. It said: "Bob E., until his death in 1984, was the
senior living member of Alcoholics Anonymous in length of sobriety. He was the
eleventh man to join the fellowship. . ."
>
> Does anybody else have any ideas or information about this?
>
> Matt D.
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@> wrote:
> >
> > The date of death for Bob E., given by All Addicts Anonymous as 1984, does
not agree with any primary source I can find. The passages quoted in their
article are clearly from the same recording quoted in DR BOB, a book which was
begun March 1977, very shortly after Bob E. died in Akron (according to the
Record of Ohio Deaths 1958-2002) on 9 February 1977 -- at which time he would
still have been the longest-sober member of A.A.
> >
> > But after 1977 and until his own death in March 1984, Clarence S. (DLD Feb
1938) was regarded both by himself and by others as the longest-sober member,
which suggests the accuracy of the putative 1977 deathdate for Bob E.
> >
> > Perhaps some member of HistoryLovers can fill us in on the 1984 death date
in the AAA publication.
> >
> > - - - -
> >
> > Message 5300 says (as referred to in Message 6262
> > "Re: Early meeting format"):
> >
> > "SHORTLY BEFORE HIS DEATH IN 1984,
> > Bob E. shared ... the following recollection
> > of what AA was like when he first joined"
> >
> > IT THEN REFERS US TO THE ALL ADDICTS ANONYMOUS WEB SITE AT:
> > <http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org/articles_anonymous.htm>
> >
> > SEE ALSO Message 6257 "Bob E. (AA #11)"
> >
> > AND ALSO Message 6265 "Re: Bob E. (AA #11)"
> >
>

0 -1 0 0
6280 Charles Knapp
Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers Having employers read the chapter To Employers 1/25/2010 5:56:00 PM

Hello all,

A reprint of Chapter 10 was published in pamphlet
form in the early 1940's and distrubied by the
Alcoholic Foundation.
 
"What About the Alcoholic Employee?" was the
title of the pamphlet. I am sure these were
passed out to a few companies where there were
recovering alcoholic employees.

Charles from Wisconsin

0 -1 0 0
6281 jax760
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/25/2010 6:04:00 PM

I suspect this thought crossed Bill's mind on one or two occasions.

From his 1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society:

In December, 1934, I appeared at Towns Hospital, New York. My old
friend, Dr. William Silkworth, shook his head. Soon free of sedation and
alcohol, I felt horribly depressed. My friend Ebby turned up. Though glad to see
him, I shrank a little. I feared evangelism, but nothing of the sort happened.

After some small talk, I again asked him for his neat little formula for
recovery. Quietly and sanely, without the slightest pressure, he told me. Then
he left. Lying there in conflict, I dropped into the blackest depression I had
ever known. Momentarily my prideful obstinacy was crushed. I cried out, "Now I'm
ready to do anything — anything to receive what my friend Ebby has." Though I
certainly didn't really expect anything, I did make this frantic appeal: "If
there be a God, will He show Himself!"

The result was instant, electric, beyond description. The place seemed to light
up, blinding white. I knew only ecstasy and seemed on a mountain. A great wind
blew, enveloping and penetrating me. To me, it was not of air, but of Spirit.
Blazing, there came the tremendous thought "You are a free man." Then the
ecstasy subsided. Still on the bed, I now found myself in a new world of
consciousness which was suffused by a Presence. One with the universe, a great
peace stole over me. I thought, "So this is the God of the preachers, this is
the Great Reality."

But soon my so-called reason returned, my modern education took over. I thought
I must be crazy, and I became terribly frightened. Dr. Silkworth, a medical
saint if ever there was one, came in to hear my trembling account of this
phenomenon.

After questioning me carefully, he assured me that I was not mad, that I had
perhaps undergone a psychic experience which might solve my problem. Skeptical
man of science though he then was, this was most kind and astute. If he had
said, "hallucination," I might now be dead. To him I shall ever be eternally
grateful.

God Bless

- - - -

From the moderator:

O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that
point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little
bit of belladonna, it would have worn off.

And Dr. Silkworth, who had been giving belladonna
to patients for some time, either knew in this
case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna
in his system, or that this was totally different
from any kind of belladonna-induced mental
aberrations.

So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a
"psychic experience" or religious experience
of some sort, and something which could not
possibly have been a drug-induced reaction
in this particular case.

Drug-induced stuff is totally different from
authentic life-changing religious experience,
in my observation. You don't give scared people
real permanent courage by giving them the
temporary illusion of courage from too much
alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact
from sending them on LSD trips, or electro-
convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries
their brains.

Bill W.'s life genuinely changed at that point,
and changed permanently, and did NOT require
continuing on daily doses of belladonna in
order to keep him sober.

So I still don't see any clinical evidence that
you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by
one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic
LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that
sort. It doesn't work that way.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

- - - -

"bbthumpthump" <steve@...> wrote:
>
> I read on Wikipedia that Bill had his White
> Light Spiritual Experience while under the
> effects of Charles Towns' Belladonna Cure,
> which evokes hallucinations in the patient.
>
> What can you tell me about this?
>
> - - - -
>
> From the moderator:
>
> Belladonna was part of the Towns' treatment,
> used to help keep the patient from going into
> major DT's. If Bill W. was given belladonna on
> this, his fourth visit to Towns (and in fact,
> we don't really know the answer to this for
> sure, based on my reading),
>
> would that much of the belladonna still have been
> in his system at the time of his vision of
> light?
>
> Could belladonna have given this sort of white
> light experience as a hallucination? The
> descriptions of belladonna intoxication seem
> to be saying that it was like the hallucinations
> accompanying the DT's, only a little milder,
> and what you experience when you're having DT's
> is most definitely NOT Bill's report of a
> positive and fulfilling experience of relief
> and freedom.
>
> All in all, the descriptions I have read of
> what belladonna does to you don't sound
> anything remotely like Bill W.'s white light
> experience:
>
> Belladonna produces dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision,
tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry mouth
and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion,
hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions. The plant's deadly symptoms are
caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's ability
to regulate non-volitional/subconscious activities such as sweating, breathing,
and heart rate. Its anticholinergic properties will cause in humans the
disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning.
>
> That sure doesn't sound like Bill W.'s
> mountain top experience to me!
>
> But have any of our members ever had experience
> with taking belladonna, perhaps in their
> misspent youths? What actually happens when
> you take the stuff?
>
> Also be sure and see Bill Lash's excellent and
> very thorough study of all this in Message #1493
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1493
>
> Bill Lash describes all the stuff that was involved
> in the treatment, etc., etc.
>
> Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)
>

0 -1 0 0
6282 BobR
2010 AA National Archives Workshop -- dates? 2010 AA National Archives Workshop -- dates? 1/24/2010 7:40:00 PM

Anyone know the dates for this year's National Archives Workshop? I know it's in
Macon, Georgia and many, many months away but still it would be nice to be able
to plan for it in advance.

0 -1 0 0
6283 diazeztone
Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA 1/29/2010 6:29:00 PM

I have a friend who is looking for speaker
tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California.
I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is
looking for a big book study he did in
1992-1993.

Anybody have this or know where to find??

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com
eztone at hotmail
___________________________________

P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around
September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army
Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober.
There were 12 tapes in the set.

I have found one by him with 8 tapes and
10 years sober, but that is not the one I want.
I prefer the one where he is very humble at
5 years.

0 -1 0 0
6284 sally.kelly1941
Alcoholics Anonymous history time line Alcoholics Anonymous history time line 1/26/2010 3:23:00 AM

Is there an existing print or online time line
of AA history? (i.e. a chronological, labeled
list of important dates, such as "Bill's sobriety
date," Bob's sobriety date," "Bill"s step five,"
"12 steps developed," "Alcoholics Anonymous
published," etc., etc.?

- - - -

From GC the moderator: two excellent AA timelines
can be found online on the internet.

One is put up by the New York GSO:

http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/

It is not quite as detailed as the second one
below, but has some very interesting items on
it. It is a very nice piece of work.

The other is the work of AAHistoryLovers member
Arthur S., who is an extremely careful and
knowledgeable historian, respected all over the
world for his precision and accuracy.

http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html

There are other timelines, which our AAHL folks
will be able to add to this list. But both of
these timelines are extremely well done, and are
very reliable.

Glenn C.

0 -1 0 0
6285 James Bliss
Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA 1/29/2010 10:32:00 PM

There is a set for sale at:

http://bigbookawakening.com/


- - - -

diazeztone wrote:
>
> I have a friend who is looking for speaker
> tapes by Joe Hutch of Santa Monica, California.
> I find one on AA speaker tapes, but she is
> looking for a big book study he did in
> 1992-1993.
>
> Anybody have this or know where to find??
>
> LD Pierce
> www.aabibliography.com
> eztone at hotmail
> ___________________________________
>
> P.S., Joe Hawks 12 Step Big Book Study, around
> September of 1992, he was at a Salvation Army
> Shelter I think, and he was 5 years sober.
> There were 12 tapes in the set.
>
> I have found one by him with 8 tapes and
> 10 years sober, but that is not the one I want.
> I prefer the one where he is very humble at
> 5 years.
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
6286 Archives Historie
AA National Archives Workshop -- Sept. 23-26, 2010 -- Macon AA National Archives Workshop -- Sept. 23-26, 2010 -- Macon 1/29/2010 10:59:00 PM

The NAW will be held September 23rd through the
26th.  The hotel will be the Marriott City Center
in Macon, Georgia.  No further details as of yet.
 
In Love and service,
 
David in Daytona

0 -1 0 0
6287 corafinch
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/27/2010 8:20:00 AM

Ther is a new book out, The Harvard Psychedelic Club by Don Lattin, with a
little information about Bill Wilson that I've not seen elsewhere. It takes up
only a couple of pages in the book, so I just read those pages standing is the
aisle at Barnes and Noble and didn't get the book. Apparently Huston Smith
interviewed Bill and the person who gave him the LSD, a few months after Bill's
first trip. Bill told Smith that the experience was a dead ringer for the famous
white light experience.

I'm not sure how much significance should be attached to that remark. Bill was
presumably trying to give Gerald Heard and Huston Smith something they would be
interested to hear, and that motivation at that particular time probably shaped
his recollection.

Nevertheless, there a a few things Glenn said that I would tend to disagree
with, and I'll intersperse them:
>
> From the moderator:
>
> O.K., so Bill W. was "free of sedation" by that
> point -- i.e., even if he had been given a little
> bit of belladonna, it would have worn off.

From what I've read, alcoholics were given true "sedatives" only for the first
day or so, to guard against the most dangerous manifestations of withdrawal.
The belladonna mixture itself was continued longer, possibly for the entire 4 or
5 day hospitalization. Dr. Lambert (see Bill Pittman, AA the Way It Began or by
its other title, The Roots of AA) specified that the belladonna mixture had to
be given in doses sufficient to produce flushed skin and dilated pupils.
Otherwise, according to Lambert, it would not bring about the desired result of
a "cessation in the desire" for alcohol.

The traditional mnemonic for atropine toxicity is "blind as a bat, dry as a
bone, red as a beet, mad as a hatter." In addition, the patients were given
large doses of vegetable and mineral laxatives, enough to produce "bilious
stools," which would have caused some degree of electrolyte and fluid depletion.
Maybe Lambert thought he was preventing "wet brain." Some doctors thought that
way at the time, reasoning that DTs had something to do with cerebral edema.

>
> And Dr. Silkworth, who had been giving belladonna
> to patients for some time, either knew in this
> case that Bill W. did not have any belladonna
> in his system, or that this was totally different
> from any kind of belladonna-induced mental
> aberrations.
>
> So Dr. Silkworth clearly regarded this as a
> "psychic experience" or religious experience
> of some sort, and something which could not
> possibly have been a drug-induced reaction
> in this particular case.

In view of Dr. Lambert's remarks about the cessation of desire for alcohol, how
do you know that what happened to Bill wasn't just what Dr. Silkworth was hoping
for? Maybe it was a rare but positive development. If you were Dr. Silkworth,
would you have just said, "Forget it, it's the mad as a hatter part, you'll get
over it?"

Pupillary dilatation can certainly cause visual "haloes" or the sensation of
white light. Of course, it only happened after Bill prayed for an epiphany, and
so cannot have been entirely attributable to the drug. Similarly, the "rushing
wind" effect is often recalled as part of epiphanies and it has been suggested
that the autonomic effects of the ecstasy increase cardiac output and make
people momentarily "hear" their own pulse. This could also have been potentiated
by the increased cardiac output caused by the belladonna.

No, I'm not trying to explain it all away, but it might not be right to say
that there was no connection. If you block a person's parasympathetic nervous
system, as the atropine family of drugs does, the unopposed sympathetic nervous
system can produce some strange effects.

>
> Drug-induced stuff is totally different from
> authentic life-changing religious experience,
> in my observation. You don't give scared people
> real permanent courage by giving them the
> temporary illusion of courage from too much
> alcohol, and you don't get people sober in fact
> from sending them on LSD trips, or electro-
> convulsive therapy, or anything else that fries
> their brains.
>
> Bill W.'s life genuinely changed at that point,
> and changed permanently, and did NOT require
> continuing on daily doses of belladonna in
> order to keep him sober.
>
> So I still don't see any clinical evidence that
> you could get an alcoholic permanently sober by
> one dose of belladonna, or by giving the alcoholic
> LSD or tranquillizers or anything else of that
> sort. It doesn't work that way.

I agree one hundred percent. Part of the lesson, though, is that things that
"work" can be our worst enemies, just because they "work." Xanax and the other
tranquilizers work. Almost any downer will, and there a are people who swear by
amphetamines (for adult ADD, of course). Ibogaine (a newer type of hallucinogen)
may even work. Just because Bill used something and it "worked" doesn't mean
that it was the reason he stayed sober. There are no free lunches.
-Cora

>

0 -1 0 0
6288 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/30/2010 3:19:00 PM

I finally found what I was looking for -- some eyewitness accounts by people who
had taken belladonna, describing what happened and what it felt like.

Belladonna has the same psychoactive components as jimsonweed (Datura
stramonium) -- atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.

When we are told that a substance causes "hallucinations," we tend to
automatically assume today that some of these are going to be pleasant
hallucinations, such as people sometimes get from LSD and magic mushrooms, where
some people get wonderful feelings of the divinity of the whole universe, and
being one with the universe, and that sort of thing. We might imagine that --
along with Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and Marshmallow Clouds -- that maybe,
just maybe, a person high on something like this might have Bill Wilson's kind
of experience.

But in fact, all you seem to get from belladonna is a relatively "bad trip," not
a "good trip." There tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish quality to
the hallucinations and delusions. That is why belladonna (which is easily
available, we've had it growing wild in our back yard) has never become popular
with the druggies. In the U.S., it isn't even illegal, on the theory that no one
would ever find this a satisfying recreational drug.
______________________________

At any rate, you can read to your heart's content in the wide selection of first
hand accounts written by people who have taken belladonna, which are given in:

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Belladonna.html

Some of them which I read were:
 
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9392
100% Visual Hallucinations, Belladonna, by parXal

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=35717.html
A Trip I'll Never Forget, Belladonna,
by Astral Perceptionz

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=18736.html
The Manson Family killed on this plant,
Atropa belladonna, by Kevin

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=30718.html
Wandering Delirium, Belladonna (roots), by yamamushi
______________________________

THE ONLY ONE I FOUND WHICH DESCRIBED MYSTICAL
EXPERIENCES or religious experiences in any
sense of the word was the following one --

but what the person took ALSO included magic
mushrooms -- in this case the variety known as
liberty cap (Psilocybe semilanceata, a
psychedelic mushroom that contains the
psychoactive compound psilocybin)

-- SO THIS IS THE EXCEPTION THAT PROVES THE RULE.

Belladonna by itself does NOT seem to produce
the kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences
which some people have reported after taking
LSD or magic mushrooms or peyote.

But for the details, read this person's first
hand account of mixing belladonna with magic
mushrooms:

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/exp.phpquery=ID=48411.html
Sensory Illusion Destroyed
Mushrooms, Belladonna & Brugmansia, by The Craic
______________________________

LET'S COMPARE THE PURE BELLADONNA EXPERIENCES
WHICH WE HAVE READ ABOVE, TO BILL WILSON'S ACCOUNT
OF HIS OWN EXPERIENCE:

Big Book p. 14:

"There was a sense of victory, followed by such a
peace and serenity as I had never know.  There was
utter confidence.  I felt lifted up, as though the great
clean wind of a mountain top blew through and
through.  God comes to most men gradually, but His
impact on me was sudden and profound."

"For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend,
the doctor, to ask if I were still sane.  He listened in
wonder as I talked."

"Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has
happened to you I don't understand.  But you had
better hang on to it.  Anything is better than the way
you were." The good doctor now sees many men who
have such experiences.  He knows that they are real."

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pp. 63-64
(Bill gave an almost identical account in his
1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL
Message 6281):

"All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show
Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a
great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to
describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that
a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I
was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a
time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and
through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself,
'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I
thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right.
Things are all right with God and His world."

"Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education crawled
back and said to me, 'You are halluncinating. You had better get the doctor.'
Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill, you
are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event here.
I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do release
people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what had
actually happened."

"More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me a
copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather
difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover."
______________________________

In this case, Lecture 3 "The Reality of the Unseen," and parts of Lectures 4-5
"The Religion of Healthy-Mindedness," would have given Bill W. examples of other
people who had had similar experiences.

Near the beginning of Lecture 4, James quoted from R. M. Bucke's book Cosmic
Consciousness, for example, and later on he quotes from R. W. Trine, In Tune
with the Infinite.

Mel Barger has often emphasized the importance of Bucke and Trine for
understanding Bill Wilson's religious experiences.

James also frequently refers (in this part of his book) to the New England
Transcendentalists (Emerson, Thoreau, and so on, and God as the Over-Soul).

James also makes a number of references in this part of his book to the poety of
Walt Whitman (a later outgrowth of the Transcendentalist movement).

All of these are useful for understanding Bill W's spirituality.
______________________________

But the most important observation to make is, to my mind, that Bill Wilson's
experience was very, very different from the sort of nightmarish trip that
people seem to have when they take belladonna. It wasn't the same thing at all.

0 -1 0 0
6289 Shakey1aa@aol.com
AA National Archives Workshop website AA National Archives Workshop website 1/29/2010 8:53:00 PM

As soon as fuller info is available for the
AA National Archives Workshop in Macon, it
should be posted on this website:

http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com/

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group

0 -1 0 0
6290 denise200305
Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 1/27/2010 4:13:00 PM

This is a question about putting up banners in
AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
and 12 Concepts written on them.

I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.

We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote
was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our
group.

An old timer and very knowledgeable member
advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
(e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).

He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
saying that he was against the banners.

I have never read or heard this before. I have
dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
on this.

So was wondering if you may have anything on
the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts
on their use (if he ever said anything about
them) as I am very interested in finding out
if this was so.

Really appreciate your time
Thanking you
Kind Regards Denise
Member Brisbane Traditions Group
Australia

0 -1 0 0
6291 Ben Humphreys
Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 1/24/2010 6:20:00 PM

I think it was one of Bill W.'s tall tales.
It was supposedly frozen in ice .... one of the
old Big Books with the red and yellow covers.

We should collect some of these old AA jokes
and tall tales.

Ben H.

0 -1 0 0
6292 Stockholm Fellowship
Travel Discounts to EURYPAA Travel Discounts to EURYPAA 1/27/2010 8:35:00 AM

EURYPAA = All-Europe Young People in A.A.

Discounts for travel to EURYPAA are available
on Continental Airlines, American Airlines and
most One World partner airlines. Visit

http://www.eurypaa.org/2010/index.php?p=4 for details.

The 1st annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. conference will be hosted by
Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. Hundreds of AAs from across Europe - and
around the world - are coming together in fellowship and celebration of sobriety
through A.A. Don't miss it!

More information at www.EURYPAA.org/2010

0 -1 0 0
6293 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers Having employers read the chapter To Employers 1/25/2010 12:29:00 PM

From Bailey and Mel Barger

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Pretty close to thirty years ago, I loaned
the book with its chapter noted to my supervisors
who were having problems with an alcoholic
employee.

They gave me the book back after a while.
Subsequently they laid the employee off.
He was hired by another company, and laid off
there, on his way back to the local area he
drove his car into the support for an overpass
and was killed.

- - - -

From: Mel B. <melb@buckeye-access.com>
(melb at buckeye-access.com)

Hi Harriet,

It seems to me that I read once that the
employers section was printed as a separate
pamphlet. Though short on cash, the AA
pioneers considered this to be so important
that they reprinted it in this form as an
inexpensive way to reach employers.

Mel Barger, Toledo
melb@accesstoledo.com
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

0 -1 0 0
6294 secondles
Re: Having employers read the chapter To Employers Having employers read the chapter To Employers 1/25/2010 7:15:00 PM

There is a somewhat related method for dealing with employers which does not
exactly fit with this question but nonetheless is a support system for
alcoholics regarding employment.

There has been a State/Federal program called Vocational Rehabilitation which
operates in all States which began in 1922. I was involved with this program
professionaly throughout my career. Seven years of that career I carried a case
load as a Counselor in the State of Maryland (1955-1962), and the next 25 years
in executive positions administuring that program with the Federal Office
(OSERS-RSA). It is a program which serves a broad range of disabilities,
including alcoholism, provided the disability constitutes a Vocational problem.
It is not a "welfare" type of program and sometimes a client may be asked to
participate in certain costs associated with his rehabilitation plan. Mostly
those services are free or handled cooperatively with other agencies. Job
Placement (dealing with employers) is one of the services. It respects
confidentiality just like other professions.

It is customary when a Counselor has a case concerning alcoholism,(and it might
start with a referral from an employer who would like to keep an employee who is
being or causing a problem) that the question of job adjustment needs to be
discussed. Perhaps the Counselor might discuss the idea of AA with the Client.
Perhaps the employer might benefit if the Counselor interceded and offered some
insight (with the client's permission) about the client's positive aspects such
as underutilized skills, etc.

I don't want to discuss the whole program which is always individualized (and I
personally didn't understand the AA-12-Steps program back then) but I mention
the VR program here to point out that sometimes it is not simply reading the Big
Book, or something related, which is useful. A hands-on, compassionate,
professional helper might be needed...perhaps with the person, or with the
employer, or both.

Les C.
Colorado Springs, CO

0 -1 0 0
6295 Robert Stonebraker
AA timeline AA timeline 1/30/2010 1:23:00 AM

Sally K. asked about AA timelines:

For a 57-page AA timeline, you can go to:

http://www.4dgroups.org

Click "Downloads" - click Documents - scroll
down to "Original 57 Page Timeline" (2004)
. . plus, you will find the same updated
(2007) timeline on the next page.

I keep this timeline next to my PC at all times.

Bob S.

- - - -

From the moderator:

This timeline

http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=fileinfo&\
id=9


seems to be another version of Arthur S.'s
excellent timeline mentioned in the previous
message.

Glenn C.

0 -1 0 0
6296 J. Lobdell
Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter 1/26/2010 10:00:00 AM

From Jared Lobdell and Shakey Mike.

LD Pierce (aabibliography.com) had asked,

"is Clyde B. ('Freeman Carpenter') still alive?"

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

Still alive -- and on Facebook (full real name)
-- and will be 90 on March 12.

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Clyde is still with us. I saw him about 2 months
ago at a Unity pitch given by the Southeastern
Pennsylvania Intergroup Assn, SEPIA, of whom I
am a past Chairperson. I approached him about
helping out in a meet and greet sometime in the
near future for the Archives Committee. Of course
he said he would if he could.

He originally got sober in the Boston Area, before
moving to Bucks county outside Philadelphia. He
has volunteered for a long time at Livengrin, a
rehab on the old estate of Mercedes Mc C., an
Oscar winning actress( All the King's Men).

Because of the recent interest in him,and I hope
it is not because of his length of sobriety
only, I will give him a call tomorrow if for
nothing more than one alcoholic talking to
another.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group

- - - -

Original messages from LD Pierce and J. Lobdell:

> From: eztone@hotmail.com
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010
> Subject: Re: Clyde B. and Freeman Carpenter
>
> Interesting ---- is Clyde B. ("Freeman Carpenter")
> still alive?
>
> (Clyde has email and website selling that
> book and others: www.freemancarpenter.com )
>
> LD Pierce
> aabibliography.com
>
> - - - -
>
> "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:
> >
> > My recollection is that Chauncey C. was the longest sober member at Toronto
2005 and died in 2006. Did he get sober at Dr. Bob's [house] in Akron in 1941?
He was succeeded as oldest by Easy E. down in Alabama, who got sober, I think,
in Nov 1942, and died in 2008? I don't know of any living members who got sober
before the end of WW2 (and stayed sober).
>
> There is in Bristol, Pennsylvania, Clyde B. who got sober in Boston June 20
1946 and wrote a book a dozen years ago -- SIXTY YEARS A DRUNK FIFTY YEARS SOBER
(under the pen-name Freeman Carpenter). He's the longest sober I've met.
>
>

0 -1 0 0
6297 Charlie C
Roy L. Smith, Emergency Rations Roy L. Smith, Emergency Rations 1/26/2010 7:14:00 AM

Not long ago I got some of the reprint "can openers" available from the Akron AA
Archives website. Interesting stuff, including the meditation booklet by Roy L.
Smith, "Emergency Rations." I have found some biographical info on him, but am
curious still to find out what, if any, contact he might have had with AA. As a
Methodist preacher and writer in a time when many of their publications were
popular in AA circles, e.g. the "Upper Room," it might have been just from that
general connection, but I was wondering if anyone knew of more direct contact
between him and AA folks?

Charlie C.IM = route20guy
"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It would frae monie a blunder free us
an foolish notion...."

To a Louse, Rob't Burns

0 -1 0 0
6298 jaynebirch55
Use of sweets Use of sweets 1/26/2010 8:38:00 AM

Hello friends,

Jayne from Barking Big Book study here. The group has asked if you have any
information on the doctor mentioned on page 133 of the Big Book who advised that
the use of sweets was often helpful.

God bless

Jayne

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator, see Big Book pp. 133-134:

"ALCOHOLICS SHOULD CONSTANTLY HAVE CHOCOLATE AVAILABLE"

"One of the many doctors who had the opportunity
of reading this book in manuscript form told us that
the use of sweets was often helpful, of course depend-
ing upon a doctor's advice. He thought all alcoholics
should constantly have chocolate available for its
quick energy value at times of fatigue. He added that
occasionally in the night a vague craving arose which
would be satisfied by candy. Many of us have noticed
a tendency to eat sweets and have found this practice
beneficial."

0 -1 0 0
6299 Lawrence Willoughby
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/31/2010 3:01:00 PM

In my 35 years of clinical experience, with one of my specialties being the
treatment of adolescents who are alcoholics and drug addicts, I have known at
least a thousand cases of people who have experimented with using belladonna to
get high.

Belladonna to the best of my experiences with patients has NEVER produced
anything like what Bill Wilson reported happening to him at Towns Hospital.

It is always bad.

The attempt to claim that Bill Wilson's experience was a hallucination induced
by belladonna is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Where is this coming
from?

Larry

========================================
Lawrence Willoughby, thirty-five years in the
clinical specialties areas of substance abuse,
trauma, PTSD including combat. Has been a
clinical supervisor, CEO of a partial program,
MSW, LCSW, DCSW.
========================================

Message: No. 6288 from Glenn Chesnut
<glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

I finally found what I was looking for -- some
eyewitness accounts by people who had taken
belladonna, describing what happened and what
it felt like

.... all you seem to get from belladonna is a
relatively "bad trip," not a "good trip." There
tends to be a disturbing and fairly nightmarish
quality to the hallucinations and delusions.

Belladonna by itself does NOT ... produce the
kind of seemingly deeply spiritual experiences
which some people have reported after taking LSD
or magic mushrooms or peyote.

You can read to your heart's content in the wide
selection of first hand accounts written by people
who have taken belladonna, which are given in:

http://de1.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Belladonna.html

COMPARE THIS TO BILL WILSON'S ACCOUNT OF HIS
OWN VERY POSITIVE AND UPLIFTING EXPERIENCE:

Big Book p. 14:

"There was a sense of victory, followed by such a
peace and serenity as I had never know. There was
utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great
clean wind of a mountain top blew through and
through. God comes to most men gradually, but His
impact on me was sudden and profound."

"For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend,
the doctor, to ask if I were still sane. He listened in
wonder as I talked."

"Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has
happened to you I don't understand. But you had
better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way
you were." The good doctor now sees many men who
have such experiences. He knows that they are real."

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age pp. 63-64
(Bill gave an almost identical account in his
1958 talk to the NYC Medical Society, see AAHL
Message 6281):

"All at once I found myself crying out, 'If there is a God, let Him show
Himself! I am ready to do anything, anything!' Suddenly the room lit up with a
great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy which there are no words to
describe. It seemed to me, in the mind's eye, that I was on a mountain and that
a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing. And then it burst upon me that I
was a free man. Slowly the ecstasy subsided. I lay on the bed, but now for a
time I was in another world, a new world of consciousness. All about me and
through me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself,
'So this is the God of the preachers!' A great peace stole over me and I
thought, 'No matter how wrong things seem to be, they are still all right.
Things are all right with God and His world."

"Then, little by little, I began to be frightened. My modern education crawled
back and said to me, 'You are hallucinating. You had better get the doctor.'
Dr. Silkworth asked me a lot of questions. After a while he said, 'No, Bill, you
are not crazy. There has been some basic psychological or spiritual event here.
I've read about them in the books. Sometimes spiritual experiences do release
people from alcoholism.' Immensely relieved, I feel again to wondering what had
actually happened."

"More light on this came the next day. It was Ebby, I think, who brought me a
copy of William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. It was rather
difficult reading for me, but I devoured it from cover to cover."

0 -1 0 0
6300 Tom Hickcox
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 1/30/2010 5:10:00 PM

Didn't Bill's grandfather have a spiritual
experience of some sort at the granite mill
up on the mountain?

Tommy

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

That story is told in Francis Hartigan's book,
Bill W.; A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous
Cofounder Bill Wilson, page 11.

Francis Hartigan was Lois Wilson's secretary.
William C. ("Willie") Wilson was Bill W.'s
paternal grandfather.

==========================================
"William Wilson may have preferred inn keeping to quarrying, but inn keeping is
seldom the right occupation for a hard-drinking man. His attempts to control his
drinking led him to try Temperance pledges and the services of revival-tent
preachers. Then, in a desperate state one Sunday morning, he climbed to the top
of Mount Aeolus. There, after beseeching God to help him, he saw a blinding
light and felt the wind of the Spirit. It was a conversion experience that left
him feeling so transformed that he practically ran down the mountain and into
town."

"When he reached the East Dorset Congregational Church, which is across the
street from the Wilson House, the Sunday service was in progress. Bill's
grandfather stormed into the church and demanded that the minister get down from
the pulpit. Then, taking his place, he proceeded to relate his experience to the
shocked congregation. Wilson's grandfather never drank again. He was to live
another eight years, sober."
==========================================

0 -1 0 0
6301 Shakey1aa@aol.com
When Love Is Not Enough -- Lois Wilson Story -- April 25, 2010 When Love Is Not Enough -- Lois Wilson Story -- April 25, 2010 2/3/2010 3:31:00 AM

The movie about Lois Wilson -- When Love Is
Not Enough -- airs in the U.S. on Sunday,
April 25 at 9 P.M. EST in a Hallmark Hall of
Fame Presentation on the CBS Network.

http://winona-ryder.org/2010/01/when-love-is-not-enough-release-date/?utm_source\
=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


This is based on Bill B's book.

Yours in Service.
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore group

0 -1 0 0
6302 diazeztone
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/2/2010 10:39:00 PM

My opinion -- that is all this is -- if you are
a traditions group you would certainly have the
traditions and concepts on the wall.

LD Pierce

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"denise200305" <honan@...> wrote:
>
> This is a question about putting up banners in
> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
> and 12 Concepts written on them.
>
> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.
>
> We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote
> was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our
> group.
>
> An old timer and very knowledgeable member
> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).
>
> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
> saying that he was against the banners.
>
> I have never read or heard this before. I have
> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
> on this.
>
> So was wondering if you may have anything on
> the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts
> on their use (if he ever said anything about
> them) as I am very interested in finding out
> if this was so.
>
> Really appreciate your time
> Thanking you
> Kind Regards Denise
> Member Brisbane Traditions Group
> Australia
>

0 -1 0 0
6303 aalogsdon
U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 1/31/2010 12:07:00 PM

I have a small photo taken in 1981 showing four
people -- Brinkley Smithers, William Bolger (the
Postmaster), Lois Wilson, and a fourth unidentified
man -- along with a U.S. first-class postage
stamp with the words on it: "Alcoholism. You Can
Beat It!" Just the words, no picture on the stamp.

Who is the fourth man in the photo?

Where can I obtain a copy of this photo?

Thanks.

0 -1 0 0
6304 Charles Knapp
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/3/2010 8:20:00 PM

I had a copy of that same photo at one time.
Somehow the photo became corrupt and I lost it.
I found it on the Internet a few years ago and
have never seen it since. This was the caption
that was with the photo:

Alcoholism Stamp Issued

First Day Stamp issued, featuring Alcoholism,
August 19, 1981. In celebration four important
individuals, in promoting awareness of Alcoholism
as public health problem pictured:

Walter J. Murphy, Lois Wilson, widow of the
co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous; William
F. Bolger, Postmaster Genera; and R. Brinkley
Smithers; Board member of the NCA and Financier
of the Modern Alcoholism Movement.

Couldn't find anything on Walter J Murphy other
than he became the Executive Director of NCADD,
but not sure of his role in 1981.

Hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From the original question:

The stamp in question is a U.S. first-class postage
stamp with the words on it: "Alcoholism. You Can
Beat It!" Just the words, no picture on the stamp.

0 -1 0 0
6305 sally.kelly1941
AA history book from GSO? AA history book from GSO? 2/1/2010 9:38:00 AM

Thanks to all who directed me to time lines
for AA history. There is one submitted by a
Michael S to the Fourth Dimension Meetings web
site that appears to be the Arthur S timeline
with updates.

AA HISTORY BOOK: 1950 TO THE PRESENT

It follows the progress, through GSC meetings,
of a planned AA history book, covering the period
since 1950, being prepared by GSO. The last
mention on that time line of that effort is at
the 45th GSC meeting in 1995.

Who knows what became of that effort?

0 -1 0 0
6306 M.J. Johnson
Re: AA timeline, Arthur''s 2005-to-present update coming soon AA timeline, Arthur''s 2005-to-present update coming soon 2/1/2010 11:35:00 AM

Have there been any updates to Arthur S.'s
timeline since 2007?

- - - -

ARTHUR RESPONDS:

I'll be doing a major update this summer for
2005 to 2010 and offer it to members of AAHL
via email.

Cheers

Arthur

0 -1 0 0
6307 tomper87
Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 2/2/2010 12:33:00 PM

In "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age" this story is referred to as a legend.
Legend is defined as a nonhistorical or unverifiable story handed down by
tradition from earlier times and popularly accepted as historical. Consequently
there is probably no basis in fact for this story. Not that we can't benefit
from these "wonderful legends".

0 -1 0 0
6308 Tom Pasek
Re: The Big Book in the rain barrel The Big Book in the rain barrel 1/31/2010 5:32:00 PM

I can't make any suggestions on the "Tall Tales"
part, but The Grapevine has recently come out
with a new book entitled "A Rabbit Walks into
This Bar.."

It's a great collection of alkie jokes.

Tom Pasek, CEO
Shaggy Dog Solutions, LLC
tom@shaggyd.com
2521 Innisfree Drive
Bakersfield, California 93309
www.shaggyd.com

- - - -

From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>
(blhump272 at sctv.coop)

I will submit an old joke I heard about 35 years ago. Most group members had
this long litany introducing themselves when they would speak up in a meeting.

The sponsor brought in a new comer who was not quite through drinking.

Sponsor says," I am John Doe and through the grace of God and AA, I have not
found it necessary to take a drink to day". He goes on with his sharing.

Now the newcomer takes the floor with, " I am Hasent Been Sober and by the grace
of God and AA I haven't found it necessary to take a drink today.

His Sponsor whispers to him, "Why you s.o.b. you were drinking this morning.

And the newcomer says, "Yes but it was not necessary."

0 -1 0 0
6309 Jon Markle
Re: Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/3/2010 7:07:00 PM

Tradition 4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other
groups or A.A. as a whole.

Let the group conscious decide what it wants to do. That's the only answer that
makes sense here, or the only one that really matters. It doesn't even matter
whether or not Bill W had anything to say about it or not. It would have only
been his personal opinion, which carries as much weight as mine or any other
member on this subject.

Groups are always querying a "higher authority" to get a "ruling" on such
things. There isn't any such authority in AA. We learned that a long long
time ago. (hopefully)

So, do what you want to. As long as it does not impact AA as a whole or another
group, it's really no one's business but that particular group.

- - - -

On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:39 PM, diazeztone wrote:

> My opinion -- that is all this is -- if you are
> a traditions group you would certainly have the
> traditions and concepts on the wall.
>
> LD Pierce
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
> "denise200305" <honan@...> wrote:
>>
>> This is a question about putting up banners in
>> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
>> and 12 Concepts written on them.
>>
>> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.
>>
>> We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote
>> was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our
>> group.
>>
>> An old timer and very knowledgeable member
>> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
>> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
>> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).
>>
>> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
>> saying that he was against the banners.
>>
>> I have never read or heard this before. I have
>> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
>> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
>> on this.
>>
>> So was wondering if you may have anything on
>> the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts
>> on their use (if he ever said anything about
>> them) as I am very interested in finding out
>> if this was so.
>>
>> Really appreciate your time
>> Thanking you
>> Kind Regards Denise
>> Member Brisbane Traditions Group
>> Australia
>>
>

0 -1 0 0
6310 Edward
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 2/1/2010 9:15:00 AM

By an odd coincidence:

I got sober at a city mission in Virginia that has both a night shelter (the
only one in town that does not exclude the intoxicated) and a long-term
residential program for drunks and drug addicts, and I still volunteer there.

Of late, some younger alcoholics who have dropped out of the program but stay in
the shelter have been trying jimson weed for its hallucinogenic properties and
often have to be transported by ambulance to the local detox for safekeeping.

They turn up drunk again as soon as they're released, so at least we can assume
that the experiences brought on by hyoscine, scopolamine and hyoscyamine do not
remove the urge to drink.

It is indeed said to be a "poor man's trip", nowhere near as pleasant as the
illegal psychedelics, and I heard a rhyme about it which goes "Can't see, can't
spit, can't pee, can't .." (I think most alkies can probably figure out the last
word).

Y'all's in service
Ted G.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:
>
> I finally found what I was looking for -- some eyewitness accounts by people
who had taken belladonna, describing what happened and what it felt like.
>
> Belladonna has the same psychoactive components as jimsonweed (Datura
stramonium) -- atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.
>
>

0 -1 0 0
6311 Stephen Gentile
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/4/2010 4:43:00 PM

From Stephen Gentile, Mike B. (tuswecaoyate),
Mike Barns (mikeb384), and Dudley Dobinson

- - - -

From: Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com>
(sagentile at hotmail.com)

Here is a picture I found on the net.

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/5520258/2/istockphoto_5520258-\
alcoholism-postage-stamp.jpg


- - - -

From: "Mike B" <tuswecaoyate@yahoo.com>
(tuswecaoyate at yahoo.com)

Here is a link with a photo of the stamp. Mike

http://www.mysticstamp.com/viewProducts.asp?sku=1927

- - - -

From: Mike Barns <mikeb384@verizon.net>
(mikeb384 at verizon.net)

http://www.arpinphilately.com/blog/how-are-postage-stamps-designed/en/

- - - -

From: DudleyDobinson@aol.com
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

I do not have the photo but do have all the official papers relating to the day
this stamp was issued in DC and have attached scans. The quote from the Egyptian
hieroglyphics may be of interest to this group. I suspect the photo mentioned to
be a private one taken at the ceremony. I also have a copy of the invitation.

Email me, and I will send you (as an email attachment) scans of the official
papers and a copy of the invitation.

Dudley - Birr Ireland

0 -1 0 0
6312 mykeblanch
Ed The salesman /Tradition three Ed The salesman /Tradition three 2/4/2010 5:36:00 PM

I have a few questions that I was hoping that
someone could answer.

In the chapter on tradition 3 in the 12 & 12
[see pp. 143-145], it mentions Ed the salesman.
Doing a search I find that Ed was possibly Jim
Burwell. Is that correct?

After asking for money and help, did the group
really leave him to fend for himself?

Last question is which AA member's house did he
sneak into by night? [p. 144]

Any history on this story would be appreciated.

Mike

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

I am sure that we have people in the AAHL who
will be able to supply a good deal of additional
information. But be sure and see Nancy Olson's
material at:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm#TheViciousCycle

on Jim Burwell MD and the Big Book story "The Vicious Cycle"
(2nd edition #238, 3rd edition #238, 4th edition #219).

Also see Message 3080

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3080

from Shakey Mike.

0 -1 0 0
6313 Tom Hickcox
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/5/2010 6:35:00 PM

At 15:43 2/4/2010, Stephen Gentile wrote:
>- - - -
>
>From: Stephen Gentile <sagentile@hotmail.com>
>(sagentile at hotmail.com)
>
>Here is a picture I found on the net.
>
>http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/5520258/2/istockphoto_5520258\
-alcoholism-postage-stamp.jpg

>
>- - - -

Several years ago this stamp and an associated first day cover, at
least I think that is what they are called, envelope with a photo of
Bill W and his handwritten version of the original six steps was
available on eBay and I purchased it for a very modest fee..

I suspect other examples are out there, I've seen them. A stamp
collector would likely know more about this issue.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
6314 t
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/5/2010 11:12:00 PM

I don't know if they qualify as the banners you
are asking about, but most groups I have gone to
or visited in the US since the late 70's have
had the steps and traditions prominently displayed
... either on the old window shades or the newer
2 foot x 3 foot folding placards that were purchased
thru the local intergroup or GSO in NY.

Somehow I don't think so many groups would have
them up, or that the intergroups and GSO would
be selling such things if Bill W had come out
against them.


>>
>> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
>> "denise200305" <honan@...> wrote:
>>
>>> This is a question about putting up banners in
>>> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
>>> and 12 Concepts written on them.
>>>
>>> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia.
>>>
>>> We had our Group Conscience and put to the vote
>>> was whether we obtain a Concept Banner for our
>>> group.
>>>
>>> An old timer and very knowledgeable member
>>> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
>>> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
>>> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).
>>>
>>> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
>>> saying that he was against the banners.
>>>
>>> I have never read or heard this before. I have
>>> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
>>> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
>>> on this.
>>>
>>> So was wondering if you may have anything on
>>> the history of the banners and Bill W's thoughts
>>> on their use (if he ever said anything about
>>> them) as I am very interested in finding out
>>> if this was so.
>>>
>>> Really appreciate your time
>>> Thanking you
>>> Kind Regards Denise
>>> Member Brisbane Traditions Group
>>> Australia
>>>

0 -1 0 0
6315 doci333
Dropkick Murphy''s in Jack Mc.''s poem Drunks Dropkick Murphy''s in Jack Mc.''s poem Drunks 2/9/2010 7:10:00 PM

Good Day Everyone,

In the poem by Jack Mc., "Drunks," what is meant
when he writes, in one line of the poem,

"and sent us to places like Dropkick Murphy's"?

Line 31 underlined - See below please

THE POEM CAN BE FOUND IN A NUMBER OF PLACES,
FOR EXAMPLE:

http://www.sobermusicians.com/drunks.html

http://www.standupoet.net/ (Click Poems then to Drunks)

Google has many pages about the band by that
name, but I didn't see anything in our group's
past postings when I searched there.

Respectfully,

Dave G.

Illinois

U.S.A.

THE WORDS OF THE POEM:

DRUNKS
for my father, and the people who almost saved his life

We died of pneumonia in furnished rooms
where they found us three days later
when somebody complained about the smell
we died against bridge abutments
and nobody knew if it was suicide
and we probably didn't know either
except in the sense that it was always suicide
we died in hospitals
our stomachs huge, distended
and there was nothing they could do
we died in cells
never knowing whether we were guilty or not.

We went to priests
they gave us pledges
they told us to pray
they told us to go and sin no more, but go
we tried and we died

we died of overdoses
we died in bed (but usually not the Big Bed)
we died in straitjackets
in the DTs seeing God knows what
creeping skittering slithering
shuffling things

And you know what the worst thing was?
The worst thing was that
nobody ever believed how hard we tried

We went to doctors and they gave us stuff to take
that would make us sick when we drank
on the principle of so crazy, it just might work, I guess
or maybe they just shook their heads
__________________________________________
and sent us places like Dropkick Murphy's
__________________________________________

and when we got out we were hooked on paraldehyde
or maybe we lied to the doctors
and they told us not to drink so much
just drink like me
and we tried
and we died

we drowned in our own vomit
or choked on it
our broken jaws wired shut
we died playing Russian roulette
and people thought we'd lost
but we knew better
we died under the hoofs of horses
under the wheels of vehicles
under the knives and bootheels of our brother drunks
we died in shame

And you know what was even worse?
was that we couldn't believe it ourselves
that we had tried
we figured we just thought we tried
and we died believing that
we didn't know what it meant to try

When we were desperate enough
or hopeful or deluded or embattled enough to go for help
we went to people with letters after their names
and prayed that they might have read the right books
that had the right words in them
never suspecting the terrifying truth
that the right words, as simple as they were
had not been written yet

We died falling off girders on high buildings
because of course ironworkers drink
of course they do
we died with a shotgun in our mouth
or jumping off a bridge
and everybody knew it was suicide
we died under the Southeast Expressway
with our hands tied behind us
and a bullet in the back of our head
because this time the people that we disappointed
were the wrong people
we died in convulsions, or of "insult to the brain"
we died incontinent, and in disgrace, abandoned
if we were women, we died degraded,
because women have so much more to live up to
we tried and we died and nobody cried

And the very worst thing
was that for every one of us that died
there were another hundred of us, or another thousand
who wished that we could die
who went to sleep praying we would not have to wake up
because what we were enduring was intolerable
and we knew in our hearts
it wasn't ever gonna change

One day in a hospital room in New York City
one of us had what the books call
a transforming spiritual experience
and he said to himself

I've got it
(no you haven't you've only got part of it)

and I have to share it
(now you've ALMOST got it)

and he kept trying to give it away
but we couldn't hear it

the transmission line wasn't open yet
we tried to hear it
we tried and we died

we died of one last cigarette
the comfort of its glowing in the dark
we passed out and the bed caught fire
they said we suffocated before our body burned
they said we never felt a thing
that was the best way maybe that we died
except sometimes we took our family with us

And the man in New York was so sure he had it
he tried to love us into sobriety
but that didn't work either, love confuses drunks
and he tried and still we died
one after another we got his hopes up
and we broke his heart
because that's what we do

And the worst thing was that every time
we thought we knew what the worst thing was
something happened that was worse

Until a day came in a hotel lobby
and it wasn't in Rome, or Jerusalem, or Mecca
or even Dublin, or South Boston
it was in Akron, Ohio, for Christ's sake

a day came when the man said I have to find a drunk
because I need him as much as he needs me
(NOW
you've got it)

and the transmission line
after all those years
was open
the transmission line was open

And now we don't go to priests
and we don't go to doctors
and people with letters after their names
we come to people who have been there
we come to each other
and we try
and we don't have to die


©—Jack Mc

0 -1 0 0
6316 john wikelius
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/5/2010 11:27:00 PM

As a stamp collector, I have a thousand
stamps of Alcoholism.

1981 First Day Covers are available as well.

Used stamps value at 0.50, unused approx 1.50.

They make great gifts.

0 -1 0 0
6317 Charley Bill
Re: U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! U.S. postage stamp reading: Alcoholism. You Can Beat It! 2/7/2010 1:42:00 AM

Charles,

I have several 8X10 B&Wphotos of that ceremony
and a mint page of the stamps, given to me by
Dr Joe Zuska., who is in some of the pictures.

I will try to find these pictures, scan and
forward them to you, perhaps next Monday. I
can send a picture of the stamps, too, if you
want it.

Charley Bill <charley_b@verizon.net>
(charley_b at verizon.net)

On 2/3/2010 5:20 PM, Charles Knapp wrote:
>
> I had a copy of that same photo at one time.
> Somehow the photo became corrupt and I lost it.
> I found it on the Internet a few years ago and
> have never seen it since. This was the caption
> that was with the photo:
>
> Alcoholism Stamp Issued
>
> First Day Stamp issued, featuring Alcoholism,
> August 19, 1981. In celebration four important
> individuals, in promoting awareness of Alcoholism
> as public health problem pictured:
>
> Walter J. Murphy, Lois Wilson, widow of the
> co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous; William
> F. Bolger, Postmaster Genera; and R. Brinkley
> Smithers; Board member of the NCA and Financier
> of the Modern Alcoholism Movement.
>
> Couldn't find anything on Walter J Murphy other
> than he became the Executive Director of NCADD,
> but not sure of his role in 1981.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Charles from Wisconsin
>
> - - - -
>
> >From the original question:
>
> The stamp in question is a U.S. first-class postage
> stamp with the words on it: "Alcoholism. You Can
> Beat It!" Just the words, no picture on the stamp.
>

0 -1 0 0
6318 pvttimt@aol.com
Re: Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? Bill''s spiritual experience -- belladonna induced? 2/6/2010 1:07:00 AM

As an EMT in an area where Jimson weed grows by the side of the road, I can
tell you first hand that our patients who ingest Jimson tea do not appear to be
having a very good time. We usually have to put them in restraints in order to
transport, and based on what the ER docs say, the physostigmine antidote is
almost as dangerous as the weed itself.

Tim T.

- - - -

Original message from: Edward <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:15 am

I got sober at a city mission in Virginia that
has ... a night shelter. Of late, some younger
alcoholics who have dropped out of the program
but stay in the shelter have been trying jimson
weed for its hallucinogenic properties and
often have to be transported by ambulance to
the local detox for safekeeping.

They turn up drunk again as soon as they're
released, so at least we can assume hat the
experiences brought on by hyoscine, scopolamine
and hyoscyamine do not remove the urge to drink.

- - - -

Belladonna has the same psychoactive components
as jimsonweed (Datura tramonium) -- atropine,
hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine.

0 -1 0 0
6319 diazeztone
Gert Behanna''s son Gert Behanna''s son 2/7/2010 5:41:00 PM

I have long had some pages on my site about
Gert Behanna and her books, AA talks, and things.

I had an email from her son a few years ago and
I never heard back from him. Does anyone know how
to contact him?

Did any of you ever have a conversation with Bard
(Gert Behanna's son)?

I write this on behalf of another member also
who contacted me, from the Louisville Metro
Traditions Group, by the name of L L

ld pierce
www.aabibliography.com
eztone at hotmail dot com

0 -1 0 0
6320 Ben Hammond
Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/8/2010 12:48:00 PM

Howdy All ... I have been searching for the
source of the phrase "Bridge of Reason"
(with caps) from the Big Book, pp. 53 and 56.

The only thing I can find on Google is references
to a website which is attacking the Mormon Joseph
Smith.

... Can anyone please clarify?

... God Bless you all...Old Ben, Tulsa OK

Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond
5126 S. St. Louis Av
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105
918 313 4059

- - - -

BIG BOOK pages 53 and 56:

p. 53 "Arrived at this point, we were squarely confronted
with the question of faith. We couldn't duck the issue.
Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of
Reason toward the desired shore of faith. The outlines
and the promise of the New Land had brought lustre
to tired eyes and fresh courage to flagging spirits.
Friendly hands had stretched out in welcome. We
were grateful that Reason had brought us so far. But
somehow, we couldn't quite step ashore. Perhaps we
had been leaning too heavily on reason that last mile
and we did not like to lose our support."

p. 56 "Then, like a thunderbolt, a great thought came.
It crowded out all else:
'WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THERE IS NO GOD?'
This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his
knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a
conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and
through him with the certainty and majesty of a great
tide at flood. The barriers he had built through the
years were swept away. He stood in the Presence of
Infinite Power and Love. He had stepped from bridge
to shore. For the first time, he lived in conscious com-
panionship with his Creator."

0 -1 0 0
6321 mrpetesplace
Looking for websites with archival preservation information Looking for websites with archival preservation information 2/6/2010 2:31:00 PM

Does anyone have a favorite website or information
I can help make available for preservation of
archival material? I would like to provide this
information on my own site with links.

Does anyone have such information on their own
area's site to assist other members? Thank you.

0 -1 0 0
6322 James Bliss
Re: AA history book from GSO? AA history book from GSO? 2/6/2010 1:25:00 AM

You can see a somewhat detailed timeline and the results of this
attempted history in Message 4951 of this group. It is located at:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4951

Jim

sally.kelly1941 wrote:
>
> Thanks to all who directed me to time lines
> for AA history. There is one submitted by a
> Michael S to the Fourth Dimension Meetings web
> site that appears to be the Arthur S timeline
> with updates.
>
> AA HISTORY BOOK: 1950 TO THE PRESENT
>
> It follows the progress, through GSC meetings,
> of a planned AA history book, covering the period
> since 1950, being prepared by GSO. The last
> mention on that time line of that effort is at
> the 45th GSC meeting in 1995.
>
> Who knows what became of that effort?
>
>
>

0 -1 0 0
6323 Stockholm Fellowship
Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert 2/6/2010 9:46:00 AM

EURYPAA 2010 Stockholm is currently seeking submissions for its Friday Night
Sunset Concert!

If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for the
lineup, please email Matt D at archiedohman@yahoo.com a link to your music, or
send a song in the mail. It's all in service, fun and fellowship for the EURYPAA
conference, so there will be no compensation -- However, a table will be
provided to get info out about the acts performing.

Also, Matt is looking for some comedians, clowns, freaks in general, fire
eaters, etc, to do entreacts while bands are setting up and breaking down.

Thanks,
Matt D
Co-Chair of Friday night entertainment for EURYPAA 2010
archiedohman@yahoo.com

Spread the Word! The 1st Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Convention will
be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. More information at
www.EURYPAA.org/2010

0 -1 0 0
6324 Arthur S
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/8/2010 5:52:00 PM

From Arthur S. and Shakey Mike

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com)

Tony is right

The various window shade, placard and table-top displays of the Steps and
Traditions and Concepts are part of Conference-approved literature and
service material and have been listed in the GSO (US/Canada) catalog for
quite a number of years. They are the foundation of AA's 3 Legacies of
Recovery, Unity and Service. They are also frequently printed in book
appendices and inside the covers of pamphlets.

It would be a bit incongruous that Bill W would be against banners or
placards portraying the 36 spiritual principles he himself authored. In AA
Comes of Age, Bill W speaks very glowingly of the banner unveiled behind the
stage in Kiel Auditorium in 1955 showing the circle and triangle logo and
explaining its meaning (and the symbolism of the 3 Legacies).

It's been my observation that when members resort to the "newcomer tactic"
(i.e. invent or augur ways that newcomers will be affected by something -
usually negative) it's primarily due to the fact that they can't come up
with a common sense reason to be against something that they are against.

It might be useful to ask for a copy of any written material by Bill W
citing what the members claims he said. On the other hand Bill has probably
been cited on quite a few things he never said.

Arthur

- - - -

From: "shakey" <shakey1aa@yahoo.com>
(shakey1aa at yahoo.com)

see 5/11/2003 posting by charles k. photo's
incl of slogans appearing in 1953 grapevine

- - - -

Original message from "denise200305" <honan@...>
said:
>>
>>> This is a question about putting up banners in
>>> AA meeting rooms, with the 12 Steps, 12 Traditions,
>>> and 12 Concepts written on them.
>>>
>>> I'm from an AA group in Brisbane, Australia ....
>>>
>>> An old timer and very knowledgeable member
>>> advised that banners can be confusing to newcomers
>>> (e.g Step 6 and what is written on Step 6 in
>>> 12x12 two different things Tradition 3 etc.).
>>>
>>> He also claimed that Bill W can be quoted as
>>> saying that he was against the banners.
>>>
>>> I have never read or heard this before. I have
>>> dozens of books and AA info on AA history and
>>> Bill W, and have been unable to find any info
>>> on this.
>>>
>>> Thanking you
>>> Kind Regards Denise
>>> Member Brisbane Traditions Group
>>> Australia
>>>

0 -1 0 0
6325 Bill Lash
RE: Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert 2/10/2010 6:21:00 PM

This goes WAY outside of the parameters of
what's allowed to be sent out to this group.
Please read the guidelines again. Thank you.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Stockholm Fellowship
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 9:47 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Call Out for Bands for EURYPAA Concert



EURYPAA 2010 Stockholm is currently seeking submissions for its Friday
Night Sunset Concert!

If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for
the lineup, please email Matt D at archiedohman@yahoo.com a link to your
music, or send a song in the mail. It's all in service, fun and fellowship
for the EURYPAA conference, so there will be no compensation -- However, a
table will be provided to get info out about the acts performing.

Also, Matt is looking for some comedians, clowns, freaks in general, fire
eaters, etc, to do entreacts while bands are setting up and breaking down.

Thanks,
Matt D
Co-Chair of Friday night entertainment for EURYPAA 2010
archiedohman@yahoo.com

Spread the Word! The 1st Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Convention
will be hosted by Stockholm, Sweden, July 23-25, 2010. More information at
www.EURYPAA.org/2010


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
6326 nuevenueve@ymail.com
Re: Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob 2/9/2010 7:28:00 PM

Hello Group, just a fact to know:

In some Countries (mainly in those very
anthropologically linked to ancestral religious
and political leadership imagery), one finds
pictures of both Bill W. and Dr. Bob on the AA
meeting rooms' walls, or even their figurines
in carved wood.

Don't know what Bill & Bob would have thought
about this, but it just happens.

- - - -

From the moderator: compare Message 4497

"Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in
Alcoholics Anonymous"

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4497

"I confess all my errors to the priest since it's
the most mortal sin to receive the Lord without
confessing all. Here too I have to confess all my
errors. Here they talk to us of good things.
When I came here and saw the pictures of the
founders, I thought, 'I've never seen a saint with
glasses before!'"

"His comments drew laughter from the audience.
Displaying the portraits of the founders above
the lectern echoed the placement of saints'
images in a Catholic church. For this man, his
A.A. colleagues were confessors and Bill W.
and Dr. Bob his saints."

0 -1 0 0
6327 ricktompkins
RE: Looking for websites with archival preservation information Looking for websites with archival preservation information 2/10/2010 8:59:00 PM

Hello peter@aastuff,

Most all Area websites have a link to the AAWS site www.aa.org and its
extraordinary AA Archives portal.

The AA Archives at the General Service Office in NYC recommends the Society
of American Archivists. Located in Chicago, Illinois it is a massive
resource for conservation methods, ethics, and continued study. SAA also has
membership offers allowing discounted books and a wealth of information. SAA
is truly a fellowship for both professionals and any of us in the AA
Fellowship with the desire for preservation study and the knack for
conservation.

http://www.archivists.org

Conservation materials? The best source I have found over the years is
Gaylord Brothers out of Syracuse, New York. Out of about five companies, it
has the best prices for materials and its customer service is excellent.
Materials are relatively expensive but worthwhile, and it has basic books
and pamphlets about conservation methods.

http://www.gaylord.com

Here's a caveat: both these non-AA sites may not approve of posted links
from a 'private' website, and I'd consider them "advertisements" if I saw
them on an AA History web page.

On your own, though, anyone here should feel free to explore either site.
These two are my personal favorites!

Yours in fellowship,

Rick, Illinois

0 -1 0 0
6328 J. Lobdell
RE: Dropkick Murphy''s in Jack Mc.''s poem Drunks Dropkick Murphy''s in Jack Mc.''s poem Drunks 2/10/2010 8:50:00 PM

Dr. John (Dropkick) Murphy (yes, he was actually
a doctor) was a professional wrestler who came
back east to the Boston area from California ca
1939-40, and according to reminiscences by one
Eddie Costello (b. 1928) who watched him wrestle
in the early '40s, he happened "on the side" to
maintain a "dry-out" farm for alcoholics, I
believe at Bellows Farm in Massachusetts
(ad as early as 1942, property finally sold in
1973).

- - - -

From: "stevec012000" <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

Dropkick Murphy's was supposedly a rehab center
in oldtime Boston (I believe).

There is a Celtic Rock band named that as well.
Here is an article where they make small mention
of it:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/calendar/articles/2004/03/11/a_sold_out_\
homecoming_for_murphys/


- - - -

From the moderator, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropkick_Murphys

"Dropkick Murphys are an American Celtic punk/
hardcore punk band formed in Quincy, Massachusetts.
There are differing stories as to the origin of
the band's name. Former band member Marc Orrell
has said:"

"The Dropkick Murphy will come and get you if
you don't go to sleep tonight. It's a rehab
center, I think it's in Connecticut. I think
it was the guy who used to come around late at
night for all the drunks, like if you were too
drunk to drive home, he would come and get you
and put you in this hole that you couldn't get
out until you were sober enough, I don't know.
There's a bunch a stories, it's also a boxer,
a bunch of things, a rehab center in Connecticut,
grandparents used to scare kids with it."

- - - -

The original message quoted the lines from
the poem which said:

> We went to doctors and they gave us stuff to take
> that would make us sick when we drank
> on the principle of so crazy, it just might work, I guess
> or maybe they just shook their heads
> and sent us places like Dropkick Murphy's
> and when we got out we were hooked on paraldehyde
> or maybe we lied to the doctors
> and they told us not to drink so much
> just drink like me
> and we tried
> and we died

0 -1 0 0
6329 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/10/2010 5:30:00 PM

"Who am I to say there is no God." was said by John Henry Fitzhugh
Mayo. It's in the book on 2 different pages. Both He and Jimmy Burwell attended
the same Episcopal Academy in Va. Fitz's father was a Episcopal minister
educated in Princeton ministering in Cumberstone Md. Interestingly , One
re-found his religion and one remained agnostic, but both were friends for life
and stopped drinking using Alcoholics Anonymous. They are buried only feet apart
from each other in that beautiful church in Cumberstone.

The following statement from the Albany Episcopal diocese explains the use of
Reason. I think it ironic that the three legged stool is also used in AA.

Rethinking the Three-Legged Stool
by The Rev. Dr. Canon Christopher Brown

What makes Anglicanism unique? An earlier generation of Anglicans replied,
"Nothing at all. We are a 'bridge church' with a vocation to draw all
churches together. We hold nothing that is distinct and uniquely Anglican; our
beliefs and practices are simply those that are common to the universal
Church."

Today, one is more likely to hear something like this: "Anglicans do not
ascribe an absolute authority to Scripture. At the same time, Anglicanism
rejects the absolute claims of an infallible papacy. Anglicanism is distinct
in its reliance on the 'Three-Legged Stool of Scripture, Reason, and
Tradition."

Attributed to the 16th century English writer, Richard Hooker, the
"Three-Legged Stool" has become the essential feature of a distinct
"Anglican Ethos." Its popularity appears to lie in the manner in which it
functions to exclude any form of religious "absolutism." Neither the Bible, nor
the authority or the Church, nor the reasoning intellect can claim the last
word,
but together they offer a balanced way to discern the will of God.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group
BTW there will be a AA Conference "Love and Service"
12-5 Feb 20,2010 in Perry Hall Baptist Church
3919 Schroeder Ave
Perry Hall MD 21128 USA(outside Baltimore MD)
The 1st portion 9-10 AM is History and Archives

0 -1 0 0
6330 James Blair
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/10/2010 11:53:00 PM

Arthur wrote

> It would be a bit incongruous that Bill W would be against banners or
> placards portraying the 36 spiritual principles he himself authored.

The first banners on roll up window shades were produced in the New York
area and they were titled "Twelve Suggested Steps." Also, cards and other
local literature was printed in this manner. This was probably in the
1945-46 period.

Bill was opposed to the title "Twelve Suggested Steps" and twice delegates
to the General Service Conference put forward conference actions to change
the title from Twelve Steps to Twelve Suggested Steps and their proposed
actions were rejected.

I had read a couple of letters in the early GV's on this subject and I
brought it up with Frank M.(archivist) on a trip to GSO and he explained it
to me.

I have not been able to find any letters by Bill on the matter.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
6331 Mike Breedlove
Re: Looking for websites with archival preservation information Looking for websites with archival preservation information 2/11/2010 12:55:00 PM

Peter and John,

Regarding archival preservation, institutions to explore include the Library of
Congress (LOC), the Northeast Document Conservation Center (NEDCC), the
Foundation of the American Institute for Conservation (FAIC), and the National
Archives (NARA). Following is a selected list.

One of the best preservation sites is Preservation 101 -
http://www.nedcc.org/education/online.php As the introduction states -
Preservation 101 is a comprehensive self-paced online course that focuses on the
preservation of paper collections and related formats. Participants will learn
about the basics of preservation in the context of small and moderately-sized
library or archival collections – how to identify deteriorated materials, how
to properly care for collections, and how to set priorities for preservation. A
primary goal of this course is to enable you to gather the information needed
for a general preservation planning survey of your institution, and to that end,
several tools have been devised to assist you in using this course effectively.
Once on the Preservation 101 home page, be sure to click on “Before You
Begin” for an introduction to the many facets of this program.

Related to it is the COOL site for professional conservators, but that provides
much useful information for the lay person. It is located at -
http://cool.conservation-us.org/

The following Wikipedia site is a useful overview -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preservation_(library_and_archival_science)

The following syllabus contains several URL references and itself offers a good
overview -
http://ischool.umd.edu/courses/2009/LBSC%20786%20Cybulski%20Fall%202008.pdf

Take care, Mike B,
Prattville, Alabama
Area One Archivist

----- Original Message -----
From: john wikelius
To: mike breedlove
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 05:07 PM
Subject: Fw: [AAHistoryLovers] Looking for websites with archival preservation
information

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: mrpetesplace <peter@aastuff.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 11:31:30 AM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Looking for websites with archival preservation
information


Does anyone have a favorite website or information
I can help make available for preservation of
archival material? I would like to provide this
information on my own site with links.

Does anyone have such information on their own
area's site to assist other members? Thank you.








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
6332 jenny andrews
LSD and alcoholism treatment LSD and alcoholism treatment 2/14/2010 12:20:00 PM

Letter to the British Medical Journal, 11 June 1966: The recent notoriety given
to LSD in the press has led to its withdrawal by Sandoz from the market. In
carefully selected cases we found the drug to be a helpful adjunct to
psychotherapy. LSD can be made by any competent chemist, and is apparently being
prepared by a few individuals for private distribution. Sandoz, up to the time
of the drug's withdrawal, restricted its distribution to psychiatric
institutions or carefully vetted individual psychiatrists. It will be
unfortunate if LSD becomes available only for "kicks" and not for serious
psychotherapeutic endeavour. (Signed by four doctors at West Park hospital,
Epsom, Surrey UK).

One of the psychiatric institutions mentioned could have been Powick hospital,
Worcestershire, UK, which reported favorable results when treating alcoholics
and others with LSD - see www.idmu.co.uk/lsd.htm

Laurie A.

_________________________________________________________________
Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
6333 nuevenueve@ymail.com
Studies of AA in different cultures Studies of AA in different cultures 2/12/2010 1:10:00 PM

Hello Group:

There's a study considering some sociological and cultural influences inside and
around AA in several Countries/Cultures, it was published by The Wisconsin
University Press and is entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous As A Mutual-Help: A Study
In Eight Societies".

Could you please reccomend some other papers alike?

Thank you.

0 -1 0 0
6334 Glenn Chesnut
Trysh Travis, new book, Language of the Heart: Cultural History Trysh Travis, new book, Language of the Heart: Cultural History 2/14/2010 6:07:00 PM

"How recovery ideas migrated into the popular imagination"
 
An interview with Trysh Travis about her new book:

The Language of the Heart: A Cultural History of the Recovery Movement from
Alcoholics Anonymous to Oprah Winfrey (Chapel Hill, North Carolina: University
of North Carolina Press, 2009).
 
http://www.rorotoko.com/index.php/article/trysh_travis_book_interview_language_h\
eart_cultural_history_recovery_moveme/

 
In a nutshell
 
My book is about that loosely defined cultural phenomenon known as "the recovery
movement" -- an agglomeration of self-help groups and practices that have grown
out of Alcoholics Anonymous since its founding in 1935. Although most people
know someone who is or has been "in recovery," most people are also a little
vague about what that means. That vagueness has allowed critics -- both
conservative and progressive -- to caricature the recovery movement as
narcissistic, banal, and apolitical. The Language of the Heart is intended to
show that recovery is a diverse and evolving phenomenon whose complex history
reflects the shifting ideas about gender and power that characterize
contemporary America.
 
I've used recovery's print culture to narrate the story of its evolution from AA
-- which began as an alcohol-focused, evangelical Christian, and resolutely
masculine sub-culture -- to Oprah Winfrey, a self-proclaimed "food addict" and
survivor of childhood sexual abuse who espouses a healing metaphysical
spirituality to millions of women around the globe. Most recovery publications
come from the margins of polite print culture. Rather than the products of
professionally credentialed authors writing in the pages of esteemed journals,
many of recovery's central ideas appeared first in obscure pamphlets,
self-published tracts, and the textbooks of the addiction treatment industry.
None of these are usually considered "serious" literature. But both the writing
and the reading of such materials is an extremely serious matter for many
recovering people.
 
The wide angle
 
Two phenomena led me to this project. A number of people close to me are
recovering addicts of one sort or another, and when I attended meetings with
them I noticed that books featured prominently in their meetings. Alcoholics
Anonymous, written by one of AA's co-founders and usually called "the Big Book,"
was the most prominent. But people also carried with them daily devotional
readers published by AA, Al-Anon (the organization for friends and families of
alcoholics), and treatment centers like Hazelden.
 
That's not something you often see in depictions of AA or NA (Narcotics
Anonymous) in film or on TV; there, a 12-Step meeting is only about people
talking. But in the meetings I attended people often referred to their books as
they talked, highlighted and annotated passages that mattered to them, and
engaged in long debates over what a passage or a phrase might mean. As a
literature teacher, these are habits I try to inculcate in my students (not
usually with much success), and I wanted to find out how and why people in
recovery were so intense about their reading.
 
At the same time that I was thinking about reading within 12-Step groups, I
started to notice an increasing number of popular novels aimed at women that
seemed to offer some version of recovery's central ideas. Powerlessness,
forgiveness, the importance of self-love and of "keeping it simple"; these were
all values that I was hearing espoused in meetings, and they were also popping
up in mid-list fiction -- not only Oprah books, but "serious" titles like
Michael Cunningham's The Hours and bestsellers like Rebecca Wells's Divine
Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood. This made me curious about how recovery ideas
had migrated out of the church basements where meetings were held and into the
popular imagination.
 
There's a lot at stake in that migration, I think. When a person goes to AA,
declares, "I am powerless over alcohol," and reads daily from the Big Book to
get instructions on how to live so as to remain sober, she has made a conscious
decision to adopt a set of mental habits -- a worldview, if you want to call it
that -- because she wants to change her life. Few people sit down with a novel
thinking, "I want to get some lessons in how to change my life from this book."
But the novels I was seeing had a powerful didactic streak. Through traditional
sentimental plots involving mothers and children, they were urging readers not
so much to quit using alcohol or drugs (though a few of them made that case in
passing), but to quit demanding satisfaction from contemporary consumer
capitalist American society, to admit they were powerless over their own lives.
 
There's something very Zen in such an admission, and that spiritual equilibrium
is what many people in recovery are striving for. At the same time, as a
feminist, I just couldn't get comfortable with powerlessness and "acceptance" as
the paths to happiness for women in the aggregate. When taken out of the context
of the individual pursuit of sobriety, recovery ideas seemed profoundly
non-liberatory. This puzzled me: how and why did these ideas move from one
context to another, and what was it about that changed context that gave them
such a different valence? To answer those questions, I decided to write the book
that became The Language of the Heart. Fortunately, as I wrote I got the
opportunity to revise this fairly simple binary into a much more complex and
multi-faceted picture.
 
A close-up
 
I've got two of these. The first is on pages 16-17, where I talk about what this
book is not. Unlike most of the writings on the topic, The Language of the Heart
is neither "for" nor "against" recovery, and it's important that people know
that going in. Twelve-step groups like AA may work well for some people but not
for others. The broader culture of recovery is in some ways insipid, banal, and
politically reactionary, and in other ways profound, exciting, and progressive.
Like any complex cultural phenomenon, recovery can't be easily boiled down to a
"good" or a "bad" thing, and people who come to the book expecting such blanket
praise or condemnation will be disappointed.
 
The second thing I hope a browsing reader would come across is the series of
images on pages 89-91. These show the iconic figure that people in AA refer to
as "the man on the bed," the de-toxing drunkard being visited by sober AAs and
encouraged to try their program of recovery. The first image is a staged
photograph that accompanied the 1941 Saturday Evening Post article that first
brought AA national attention; the second is an illustration for an article in
the AA magazine The Grapevine. That illustration was translated into stained
glass by AA members in Akron, Ohio in 2001, and the final image is of their
work, which hangs in the Akron AA archives.
 
This triptych of images is important to me for two reasons. The image of "the
man on the bed" exemplifies both the vulnerability (represented by the man on
the bed himself) and the mutuality (represented by the AAs who have come to
offer him help) that together form the heart of 12-Step recovery.
Mid-twentieth-century straight white masculinity did not value either of those
traits particularly highly, and AA's most radical feature may be its injunction
to its members (about 66% of whom are men) to give up the habits of "domination
and dependence" that have shaped their lives and their drinking. The man on the
bed is poised to renounce those habits or to slip back into them, and so his
image appears frequently in AA's material culture. on sobriety medallions,
bookmarks, murals, etc. That AAs continue to re-imagine the man on the bed in
new media suggests that even as the organization has grown into a global
phenomenon of millions of members, its radical
potential --  the possibility that individual men might transform their lives
by embracing relationships of compassion, rather than competition -- remains
alive.
 
Second, these images testify to the enormous help I received from recovering
people while I was putting this book together. Few of my primary sources reside
in standard repositories like libraries, museums, or professionally-maintained
archives; instead, they came from private collections, offbeat literature
dealers, and the archives maintained by recovering people interested in their
own history. Their generosity in sharing these materials with me has been one of
the greatest rewards of my research, and it is emblematized in these photos.
 
Lastly
 
One of the things I've become most aware of while working on this book is the
degree to which cultural critics inside and outside of the academy write about
phenomena that reflect and reinforce their own tastes and worldviews. There's a
lot of writing out there about addiction, because addiction, despite its tragic
dimension, retains a sheen of cool. Drug and alcohol use and abuse are
dis-inhibiting; they de-stabilize social norms. Without too much effort, we can
see them as heroic challenges to the staid routines of our uptight bourgeois
lives.
 
Recovery culture, by contrast, is really square, both as aesthetics and as
politics. One of the amateur authors I talk about drew inspiration from Lawrence
Welk in many of his writings, for crying out loud -- and not in an ironic way!
It's this squareness, I think, that has led critics to overlook the complexity
of recovery -- its existence as a cultural formation with a genuine intellectual
and social history that both reflects and helps to construct the larger
economic, political, and psychic realities around it.
 
Personally, I would rather listen to hip-hop than to Lawrence Welk, and prefer
reading high modernism to the personal stories in the Big Book. But that doesn't
mean that the culture of people whose tastes don't run to transgressive or
ironic texts is transparent or not worthy of scrutiny. Neither belletristic nor
academic critics of the popular expend much energy on square cultures, however,
except to occasionally talk about how awful they are. I wonder what other
cultural formations besides recovery scholars of popular culture have simplified
or overlooked in recent years simply because they don't give us aesthetic or
intellectual pleasure.

0 -1 0 0
6335 Harriet Dodd
The two alcoholic employees in To Employers The two alcoholic employees in To Employers 2/13/2010 11:37:00 AM

Hello

We are studying the chapter in the Big Book called
To Employers at the moment.

Page 149 says "Today I own a little company.
There are two alcoholic employees, who produce
as much as five normal salesmen."

Do we know who these alcoholics were?

Many thanks,
Harriet
______________________________

From the moderator: it will be useful here to
go to the Message Board at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

and do a search for all the messages using the
phrase "To Employers" (e.g. Message 5468) and
all the messages entitled "authorship of Chapter
10" (e.g. Messages 3280 and 3284).

The chapter To Employers begins on p. 136 with the statement that this chapter
was written by "one member who has spent much of his life in big business." It
is believed by most AA historians (although not one hundred percent of them)
that this was Hank Parkhurst. See Hank's story "The Unbeliever" in the first
edition of the Big Book.

If this was indeed Hank, then on p. 141 the company which the author of this
chapter said he was employed by was Standard Oil of New Jersey.

Then on p. 149, the passage you are asking about says: "Today I own a little
company," which would have to be a reference to the Honor Dealers Co., an
automobile polish distributorship.

The company started out as just Hank Parkhurst and Bill Wilson. They hired Ruth
Hock, a nonalcoholic, as their secretary. She typed up the various versions of
the Big Book manuscript, and became AA's first secretary. Later on they hired
Jim Burwell, another alcoholic, making four of them in all -- three alcoholics
and one nonalcoholic.

See Jim Burwell's Big Book story "The Vicious Cycle," 3rd edit. page 246, "Bill
and Hank had just taken over a small automobile polish company," and 3rd edit.
page 248, "peddling off my polish samples."

In the passage you are asking about, on pp. 149-150, Hank was probably thinking
of himself as "the boss," so the "two alcoholic employees" he was referring to
would have been Bill Wilson and Jim Burwell.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
6336 Michael
Earliest prison/behind the walls groups in Canada Earliest prison/behind the walls groups in Canada 2/15/2010 3:33:00 PM

This is a question for those familiar with
Canadian AA History.

I believe the first prison group in Canada was
the Intramural Group at Dorchester Penitentiary
in New Brunswick, registered with GSO June 22,
1949. The Group is still active.

Does anyone know of an older group of this type
in Canada?

Thanks.

Michael

0 -1 0 0
6337 Charlie C
Re: archival resources archival resources 2/15/2010 7:34:00 AM

For some years I had, among other duties, that of being college archivist where
I am a librarian, and I found Light Impressions an excellent source of archival
quality supplies and information: http://www.lightimpressionsdirect.com/

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

0 -1 0 0
6338 Roy Levin
Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA 2/15/2010 2:51:00 AM

It's Joe Hawk, not Joe Hutch.  The BigBookAwakening
website is run by my AA buddy Dan S. of Santa
Monica a former Joe H. sponsee, and indeed, he
does sell a set of CDs of Joe's salvation army
workshop back in 93.  I have these CDs myself.
Joe is an excellent presenter of the BigBook
based step process.

________________________________

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 7:32:00 PM
Subject: Re: Speaker tapes of Joe H., Santa Monica CA

There is a set for sale at:

http://bigbookawakening.com/

0 -1 0 0
6339 DudleyDobinson@aol.com
Re: Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob 2/11/2010 7:26:00 AM

Some countries should include the U.S.A.
I got sober in San Jose, Ca and the local
Alano Clubs had pictures of our founders on
the walls of meeting rooms. No further
comment needed!

Dudley - Birr, Ireland

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@mac.com>
(serenitylodge at mac.com)

Personally, I detested the change on chips/tokens when they went from the
triangle to a likeness of Bill & Bob (those metal/bronze tokens). I refuse to
carry them. It smacks of idolatry worship that I can't abide.

I refuse to attend meetings where there are such depictions on the wall; even
large framed pictures are disturbing to me.

I believe that any such representation on our literature, tokens, posters, etc,
is simply wrong spirited. The fellowship is not Bill and/or Bob. Holding up
one person as "god" simply defeats the whole purpose of our principles.
Although I may refer to something one or the other has written, (such as the
Steps), that does not mean I worship or idolize them as being infallible or
god-like.

- - - -

Original message from <nuevenueve@ymail.com>
(nuevenueve at ymail.com)

In some Countries (mainly in those very
anthropologically linked to ancestral religious
and political leadership imagery), one finds
pictures of both Bill W. and Dr. Bob on the AA
meeting rooms' walls, or even their figurines
in carved wood.

Don't know what Bill & Bob would have thought
about this, but it just happens.

- - - -

From the moderator: compare Message 4497

"Saints With Glasses: Mexican Catholics in
Alcoholics Anonymous"

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4497

"I confess all my errors to the priest since it's
the most mortal sin to receive the Lord without
confessing all. Here too I have to confess all my
errors. Here they talk to us of good things.
When I came here and saw the pictures of the
founders, I thought, 'I've never seen a saint with
glasses before!'"

"His comments drew laughter from the audience.
Displaying the portraits of the founders above
the lectern echoed the placement of saints'
images in a Catholic church. For this man, his
A.A. colleagues were confessors and Bill W.
and Dr. Bob his saints."

0 -1 0 0
6340 Arthur S
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/11/2010 1:47:00 PM

Jim,

Wall banners or placards were not distributed to groups by the NY Office
prior to the mid-1970s after Bill W had passed away. Individual groups may
have elected to do what they did on an individual basis.

A question posited at the 1974 conference was: "Could we have the Twelve
Steps and Twelve Traditions made up in a 2' x 4' or other size suitable for
hanging in meeting places?" The answer was "The matter will be discussed at
a meeting of AAWS." I believe they began production of them in 1975.

A question posited at the 1976 conference that: "There has been much
controversy over the alleged misuse of the word "suggested" in reference to
the Twelve Steps. Please give all examples of literature changes in wording
since the 1975 Conference-changes allegedly made only to insure uniformity
in reference to the Twelve Steps, "which are suggested as a program of
recovery." The answer was: "In the listing of the Twelve Steps, the word
"suggested" was removed from 14 pamphlets. In three pamphlets, it has not
been removed. For further information, contact the Conference secretary."

The 1976 Conference Committee on literature recommended that "Present
terminology used regarding the word "suggested" when referring to the Twelve
Steps is consistent with that employed in the Big Book, the "Twelve and
Twelve," and other A.A. literature and should remain as is."

Bill may have been opposed to injecting the word "suggested" into the title
of the Steps but he was not opposed to the notion of the Steps being viewed
as suggestions. In the 1953 final Conference report, Bill is quoted as
saying:: "Where variations of the Traditions are concerned, we've gone up
and down like a window shade. We even have a Tradition that guarantees the
right of any group to vary all of them, if they want to. Let's remember, we
are talking about suggested (underlined in the report for emphasis) steps
and traditions. And when we say each group is autonomous, that means that it
also has a right to be wrong."

Cheers

Arthur

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Bill W said and repeated:

There is no dogma.
The one theological proposition is a Power greater than oneself.
Even this concept is forced on no one.

Banners and slogans, plus people instructing others, are dogma.

- - - -

Original message no. 6330 from James Blair
<jblair@videotron.ca> (jblair at videotron.ca)

The first banners on roll up window shades were produced in the New York
area and they were titled "Twelve Suggested Steps." Also, cards and other
local literature was printed in this manner. This was probably in the
1945-46 period.

Bill was opposed to the title "Twelve Suggested Steps" and twice delegates
to the General Service Conference put forward conference actions to change
the title from Twelve Steps to Twelve Suggested Steps and their proposed
actions were rejected.

I had read a couple of letters in the early GV's on this subject and I
brought it up with Frank M.(archivist) on a trip to GSO and he explained it to
me.

I have not been able to find any letters by Bill on the matter.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
6341 J. Lobdell
Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/15/2010 9:55:00 AM

The Bridge of Reason occurs in [Moses] Maimonides, eight hundred (or so) years
ago, and was picked up by Spengler in his magnum opus, The Decline of the West,
greatly publicized in the 1930s. I'm not sure if "the Bridge of Reason leads to
the Shore of Faith" is itself in Maimonides, but that's generally where the
Bridge has been deemed to lead. My guess is any Big Book use comes from
Maimonides through Spengler -- unless it's also in Lewis Browne, the one Jewish
religious writer we know Bill read.

0 -1 0 0
6342 corafinch
Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/15/2010 9:13:00 AM

It sounds something like what Charles Fillmore wrote in the "Manifestation"
chapter of Christian Healing. Referring to the gulf between spiritual knowledge
and the material manifestation, he wrote, "The bridge needed is the structure
which thought builds." Fillmore and his wife Myrtle founded Unity Church, a
Christian denomination within the New Thought movement which was such an
important influence on AA.

However, other writers in the New Thought tradition used similar analogies, so
Fillmore is certainly not the only potential source. Thomas Troward, in the
Edinburgh lectures, spoke of the subconscious (which he considered to be
amenable to conscious suggestion) as the bridge between individual minds and the
higher thought or divine mind. Troward capitalized many of these terms, although
Fillmore tended to leave them in lower case.

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Ben Hammond <mlb9292@...> wrote:
>
> I have been searching for the
> source of the phrase "Bridge of Reason"
> (with caps) from the Big Book, pp. 53 and 56.
>

0 -1 0 0
6343 James Blair
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/17/2010 6:54:00 PM

Arthur wrote
> Wall banners or placards were not distributed to groups by the NY Office
> prior to the mid-1970s after Bill W had passed away. Individual groups may
> have elected to do what they did on an individual basis.


These were made up by N.Y. Intergroup on blinds as well they printed cards
with Twelve Suggested Steps on them.

Too bad Frank M. is gone b/c he explained the whole kerfuffle to me.
Jim

0 -1 0 0
6344 James Blair
Re: Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts Banners with the steps, traditions, and concepts 2/17/2010 7:07:00 PM

SUBTOPIC: the "suggested" twelve steps

Arthur wrote
> A question posited at the 1976 conference that: "There has been much
> controversy over the alleged misuse of the word "suggested" in reference
> to
> the Twelve Steps. Please give all examples of literature changes in
> wording
> since the 1975 Conference-changes allegedly made only to insure uniformity
> in reference to the Twelve Steps, "which are suggested as a program of
> recovery." The answer was: "In the listing of the Twelve Steps, the word
> "suggested" was removed from 14 pamphlets. In three pamphlets, it has not
> been removed. For further information, contact the Conference secretary."


I found a 1983 note under literature which states, ""The word "suggested" in
the title of the Twelve Steps not be reinstated."'

This suggests to me that it once existed in the literature. I have a friend
who attended the 83' conference and I'll see if I can get in touch with him
and ask if he can shine any light on this.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
6345 Cindy Miller
Re: Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob Banners -- and photos of Bill and Bob 2/17/2010 6:02:00 PM

From Cindy Miller, tomper, and Robert Stonebraker

- - - -

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

How about the big Bill & Bob pictures displayed
on an easel at the large Founder's Day meetings?

> `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>


- - - -

From: "tomper87" <tomper99@yahoo.com> (tomper99 at yahoo.com)

Very nice portraits of Dr. Silkworth, Dr. Bob, and Bill W. were displayed on the
wall at the first A.A. club in New York. Bill lived upstairs for awhile so
apparently did not mind this.

Picture of this can be seen on the aa.org website on the timeline:
http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/ Just plug in search word clubhouse.

Portraits of someone can just be a sign of respect and do not necessarily
indicate idol worship of the individuals.

- - - -

From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

This photo is in the 1935-1944 section of the AA timeline, describing events
which took place in 1940, and headed "The first New York clubhouse," with the
phrase "Interior of the 24th Street Clubhouse, New York City" under the photo.
But it is not clear that the photo which is posted on the timeline was actually
taken back in 1940. Can anyone provide the date when the photo was taken?

- - - -

From: "Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>
(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

In effort to interest members in AA history, our local clubhouse has hung large
oil paintings of Bill & Bob, also fifteen 8" x 10" photos of the well known
early movers and shakers of the 1930s and 1940s era.

Bob S., Richmond, IN

0 -1 0 0
6346 Woodstock Singh
Big Book Study Guide by Ken W. Big Book Study Guide by Ken W. 2/19/2010 12:49:00 PM

I found this work a few years ago. It is easy
to find in Google search.

The author claims membership in AA beyond 50
years.

Does anyone know if the author is still among
the living?

Does anyone have any additional historical
information -- beyond what can already be
found by a Google search -- about the author's
background and how this work was written?

Jim S.
Pensacola, FL

______


Ken W., Study Guide to the AA Big Book

"A SPIRITUAL VIEW BEYOND THE LIMITS OF
TRADITIONAL RELIGION"

0 -1 0 0
6347 Tom Hickcox
Commemorative Little Red Book Commemorative Little Red Book 2/19/2010 3:52:00 PM

Hazelden published a special edition of the Little Red Book in 1996
to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of its initial publication in
1946. It was supposed to be a more or less exact copy of the first
printing but somehow was copied from the 1949 printing, the unstated
fifth printing. I don't know how that happened, but I'm sure it is a
good story.

I noticed some time back that there are at least two versions of the
commemorative edition, the difference being the wording of Step
12. One has "Having had a spiritual experience as the result . . ."
as was in the original LRB [and the original Big Book] up until the
12th Printing. The other version has the current wording "Having had
a spiritual awakening as the result . . ."

I am aware that Webster did not use the exact wording of the Steps in
the early printings of the LRB. The early printings have ". . . God
as we understand Him" in Step 3 and sometimes in Step 11. This
perhaps is carryover from pamphlets, but I'm not interested in that
here. It will have to wait until later.

I thought perhaps the aberrant version [awakening] was the rarer, but
I came across another Commemorative Edition this week and it has awakening.

A friend was sent twenty copies of the book when it came out by Bill
Pittman who inscribed one of them to him. He tells me that book has
"experience" which indicates that the initial press run had that.

I am interested in knowing why there are two versions of this edition
and possibly also the relative abundance of each.

I plan on listing all the variations of the Coll-Webb printings of
the LRB unless there is a list already available.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
6348 Glenn Chesnut
Early AA beginners lessons Early AA beginners lessons 2/21/2010 3:39:00 PM

EARLY AA BEGINNERS LESSONS

History of the Beginners Classes: a Speech by Wally P.

Initial growth in Alcoholics Anonymous took place in Cleveland, Ohio. Clarence
S. and the guys went out actively pursuing drunks and brought them off bar
stools and street corners. We don't do that today, but we were doing it back
then [late 1930's and 1940's]. And it worked!

In early 1940, when there were about 1,000 members of AA, more than half were
from Cleveland. The book 'AA Comes of Age' talks about it on pages 20 and 21:
"It was soon evident that a scheme of personal sponsorship would have to be
devised for the new people. Each prospect was assigned an older AA, who visited
him at his home or in the hospital, instructed him on AA principles, and
conducted him to his first meeting." So even back in the early days the sponsor
was taking the sponsee to meetings and getting together with him, rather than
having the sponsee track the sponsor down. 'AA Comes of Age' continues by
saying, "But in the face of many hundreds of pleas for help, the supply of
elders could not possibly match the demand. Brand-new AA's, sober only a month
or even a week, had to sponsor alcoholics still drying up in hospitals."

Because of this rapid growth in Cleveland, the idea of formalized classes
started. In the book 'Dr. Bob and the Good Old-timers' it states on page 261,
"Yes, Cleveland's results were the best. Their results were in fact so good that
many a Clevelander really though AA had started there in the first place." Over
half of the fellowship was from Cleveland up and through the mid-1940s.

During the winter of 1941 the Crawford Group (founded in February 1941)
organized a separate group to help newcomers through the Steps. By the first
issue of the Cleveland Central Bulletin, October 1942, the Crawford "Beginners'
Class" was listed as a separate meeting. And in the second issue, in November
1942, there was an article entitled "Crawford Men's Training." This refers to
possibly the first "Beginners' Class." "The Crawford Men's Training System has
been highly acclaimed to many. Old AA's are asked to come to these meetings with
or without new prospects, where new prospects will be given individual attention
just as though they were in a hospital. Visiting a prospect in his home has
always been handicapped by interruptions. But the prospect not daring to
unburden himself completely for fear of being overheard by his relatives and by
the AA's reticence for the same reason. Hospitalization without question is the
ideal answer to where the message will be most effective; but the Crawford
training plan strikes us as being the next best."

In the early days they weren't sure if you could get sober if you didn't go to
treatment. That was one of the early questions -- could a person get sober
without going to a three or five-day detox. Because it was during that detox
that sometimes ten and twenty AA members came to visit the new person. And each
hour the prospect was awake he would hear someone's story -- over and over
again. And something gelled during these hospital stays. But they were trying to
do it outside of the hospital and this is where the first of the classes came
from.

These classes continued at Euclid Avenue Meeting Hall through June 1943 and at
that time the Central Bulletin announced a second session -- "The Miles Training
Meeting." The bulletin read, "The Miles Group reports they have enjoyed unusual
success with their training meetings. The newcomer is not permitted to attend a
regular AA meeting until he has been given a thorough knowledge of the work."
The newcomer couldn't go to a meeting until he completed the training session. A
lot of places didn't allow you to go to AA meetings until you had taken the four
classes. You didn't just sit there -- you had already completed the steps when
you went to your first AA meeting. "From 15 to 20 participate at each training
meeting and new members are thoroughly indoctrinated."

These meetings grew and spread and visitors came from out of town and out of
state.

In 1943 the Northwest Group in Detroit, Michigan standardized the classes into
four sessions. "In June 1943 a group of members proposed the idea of a separate
discussion meeting to more advantageously present the Twelve Steps of the
recovery program to the new affiliates. The decision was made to hold a Closed
Meeting for alcoholics only for this purpose. The first discussion meeting of
the Northwest Group was held on Monday night June 14, 1943 and has been held
every Monday night without exception thereafter (as of 1948). A plan of
presentation of the Twelve Steps of the recovery program was developed at this
meeting. The plan consisted of dividing the Twelve Steps into four categories
for easier study." The divisions were:

1. The Admission
2. Spiritual
3. Restitution and Inventory
4. Working and the message

"Each division came to be discussed on each succeeding Monday night in rotation
This method was so successful that it was adopted first by other groups in
Detroit and then throughout the United States.

Finally the format was published in its entirety by the Washington, DC Group in
a pamphlet entitled 'An interpretation of our Twelve Steps." The first pamphlet
was published in 1944 and contains the following introduction: "Meetings are
held for the purpose of aquatinting both the old and new members with the Twelve
Steps on which our Program is based. So that all Twelve Steps may be covered in
a minimum of time they are divided into four classifications. One evening each
week will be devoted to each of the four subdivisions. Thus, in one month a new
man can get the bases of our Twelve Suggested Steps." This pamphlet was
reproduced many times in Washington, DC and then throughout the country and is
even still being printed in some areas today.

In the Fall of 1944, a copy of the Washington, DC pamphlet reached Barry C. --
one of the AA pioneers in Minneapolis. He wrote a letter to the New York
headquarters requesting permission to distribute the pamphlet. We talk about
"Conference Approved Literature" today; but this is the way the Fellowship
operated back then. This is a letter from Bobby B., Bill W.'s secretary, printed
on "Alcoholic Foundation" stationary. This is what she says:

"The Washington pamphlet, like the new Cleveland one, and a host of others, are
all local projects. We do not actually approve or disapprove these local pieces.
By that I mean the Foundation feels that each group is entitled to write up
their own 'can opener' and to let it stand on it's own merits. All of them have
their good points and very few have caused any controversy. But in all things of
a local nature we keep hands off -- either pro or con. Frankly, I haven't had
the time to more than glance at the Washington booklet, but I've heard some
favorable comments about it. I think there must be at least 25 local pamphlets
now being used and I've yet to see one that hasn't some good points."

And then in 1945 the AA Grapevine printed three articles on the "Beginners'
Classes." The first one was published in June and it described how the classes
were conducted in St. Louis, Missouri. This has to do with the "education plan"
and they called it the Wilson Club. "One of the four St. Louis AA groups is now
using a very satisfactory method of educating prospects and new members. It has
done much to reduce the number of 'slippers' among new members. In brief it is
somewhat as follows: Each new prospect is asked to attend four successive
Thursday night meetings. Each one of which is devoted to helping the new man
learn something about Alcoholics Anonymous, it's founding and the way it works.
The new man is told something about the book and how this particular group
functions. Wilson Club members are not considered full active members of AA
until they've attended these four educational meetings."

In the September 1945 issue of the Grapevine the Geniuses Group in Rochester, NY
explained their format for taking newcomers through the Steps. The title of the
article was "Rochester Prepares Novices for Group Participation." This is how
they perceived the recovery process to operate most efficiently: "It has been
our observation that bringing men [and woman] into the group indiscriminately
and without adequate preliminary training and information can be a source of
considerable grief and a cause of great harm to the general moral of the group
itself. We feel that unless a man, after a course of instruction and an
intelligent presentation of the case for the AA life, has accepted it without
any reservation he should not be included in group membership. When the sponsors
feel that a novice has a fair working knowledge of AA's objectives and
sufficient grasp of it's fundamentals then he is brought to his first group
meeting. Then he listens to four successive talks based on the Twelve Steps and
Four Absolutes. They are twenty-minute talks given by the older members of the
group and the Steps for convenience and brevity are divided into four sections.
The first three Steps constitute the text of the first talk; the next four the
second; the next four the third; and the last Step is considered to be entitled
a full evening's discussion by itself." This group taught the Steps in order
rather than in segments.

In December 1945, the St. Paul, Minnesota Group wrote a full-page description of
the "Beginners' Meetings." The description of their four one-hour classes was:
"New members are urged to attend all the sessions in the proper order. At every
meeting the three objectives of AA are kept before the group: to obtain and to
recover from those things which caused us to drink and to help others who want
what we have."

In 1945 Barry C., of Minneapolis, received a letter from one of the members from
the Peoria, Illinois Group. In the letter, the writer, Bud, describes the
efforts of Peoria, Illinois in regarding the "Beginners' Classes." "In my usual
slow and cautious matter I proceeded to sell the Peoria Group on the Nicollet
Group. Tomorrow night we all meet to vote the adoption of our bylaws slightly
altered to fit local conditions." (No one taught the classes the same way. They
were taught based on a group conscience.) "Sunday afternoon at 4:30 our first
class in the Twelve Steps begins. We're all attending the first series of
classes so we'll all be on an even footing. We anticipate on losing some
fare-weather AA hangers-on in the elimination automatically imposed by the rule
that these classes must be attended. This elimination we anticipate with a "we"
feeling of suppressed pleasure. It is much as we are all extremely fed up with
running a free drunk taxi and sobering-up service."

Then sometime prior to 1946 in Akron, Ohio the Akron Group started publishing
four pamphlets on the AA Program. They were written by Ed W. [**see note at the
end**] at the direction of Dr. Bob, one of the co-founders of AA. Dr. Bob wanted
some "blue-collar" pamphlets for the Fellowship. In one of the pamphlets, "A
Guide to the Twelve Steps", it reads: "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous is intended to be a simple, short and concise interpretation of the
rules for sober living as compiled by the earliest members of the organization.
The writers and editors are members of the Akron, Ohio Group where Alcoholics
Anonymous was founded in 1935. Most of the ideas and explanations were brought
out in a series of instruction classes conducted by veteran members of the
group." So this proves the classes were being taught in Akron, Ohio.

There are a lot of places they were being taught.

Then the classes were actually formalized into a book called "The Little Red
Book" in 1946. The inscription on the inside cover says, "The material in this
Little Red Book is an outgrowth of a series of notes originally prepared for
Twelve Step instruction to AA beginners." So we know the "Little Red Book" came
out of these four one-hour classes also. "Few books have had greater record for
humble service than the Little Red Book upon which so many members have cut
their AA teeth." A manuscript drawn up from these notes was sent to Dr. Bob at
the request of USA and Canadian members. He approved the manuscript and the book
was published in 1946. Dr. Bob approved of "The Little Red Book." So Dr. Bob not
only authorized the publication of the Akron pamphlets, he also endorsed "The
Little Red Book," both of which were products of the "Beginners' Classes."

Even our first AA group handbook, originally entitled "A Handbook for the
Secretary", published by the Alcoholic Foundation in 1950, had a section on the
"Beginners' Classes."

At the time there were only three types of meetings: Open Speaker Meetings,
Closed Discussion Meetings, and Beginners' Meetings. There was no such thing as
an Open Discussion Meeting in the early days of Alcoholics Anonymous. In the
Beginners' Meetings, which are described in the Meeting section, the handbook
states: "In larger metropolitan areas a special type of meeting for newcomers to
AA is proved extremely successful. Usually staged for a half-hour prior to an
open meeting, this meeting features an interpretation of AA usually by an older
member presented in terms designed to make the program clear to the new member.

(Note: The Chicago Group held their "Beginners' Classes" a half-hour prior to
their Open Meeting. When publishing the group handbook, the New York office only
described Chicago's format.)

After the speaker's presentation the meeting is thrown open to questions." In
each of the four one-hour classes there was always a session for questions
afterwards. "Occasionally, the AA story is presented by more than one speaker.
The emphasis remains exclusively on the newcomer and his problem."

The four one-hour classes were taught all over the country. Some other cities
include Oklahoma City, Miami Florida, and Phoenix Arizona.

If these classes were so important, then what happened to them? Most of the
people who have joined AA in the last twenty-five years or so have never even
heard of them. Ruth R., an old-timer in Miami Florida, who came into AA in 1953,
gave some insight into the demise of the "Beginners' Classes." "At that time the
classes were being conducted at the Alana Club in Miami -- two books were used:
"Alcoholics Anonymous" (Big Book) and the "Little Red Book." Jim and Dora H.,
Florida AA pioneers, were enthusiastic supporters and they helped organize
several of the classes and served as instructors." (Note: Dora was a Panel 7
Delegate to the General Service Office.) Ruth recalled that the classes were
discontinued in the mid-1950s as the result of the publication of the book
"Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" by Alcoholics Anonymous Publishing Inc. In
the Miami area the "Twelve and Twelve" replaced both the "Big Book" and the
"Little Red Book" and "Step Studies" replaced the "Beginners' Classes." In the
process, the period for taking the Steps was expanded and modified from 4 weeks
to somewhere in between 12 and 16 weeks. The Fourth Step inventory was modified
and became a much more laborious and detailed procedure. What was originally
conceived as a very simple program, which took a few hours to complete, evolved
into a complicated and confusing undertaking requiring several months.

Studying the Steps is not the same as taking the Steps. In the "Beginners'
Classes" you take the steps. The Big Book says, "Here are the steps we took" not
"here are the steps we read and talked about." The AA pioneers proved that
action, not knowledge, produced the spiritual awakening that resulted in
recovery from alcoholism. On page 88, the authors of the Big Book wrote, "It
works -- it really does. We alcoholics are undisciplined. So we let God
discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined. But this is not all.
There is action and more action. Faith without works is dead."

This concludes the description of the "Beginners' Classes" during Wally P.'s
talk in Mesa, Arizona on November 23, 1996. Wally P. is an AA Archivist from
Tucson, Arizona. For two years he researched and studied areas of the country
that held "Beginners' Classes." He then started teaching the classes under the
guidance of his sponsor who took the classes in 1953 and never drank again. In
March of 1996 Wally mentioned the "Beginners' Classes" as part of his historical
presentation at the Wilson House in East Dorset, Vermont. Wally then wrote and
published a book entitled "Back to Basics: The Alcoholics Anonymous Beginners'
Classes -- Take all 12 Steps in Four One-Hour Sessions."
________________________________________

**SOURCES**

http://stepstudy.org/2008/05/21/history-of-the-beginners-classes-a-speech-by-wal\
ly-p/


See also AAHistoryLovers Message 1627 from Bill Lash for another copy of this
talk: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1627
________________________________________

**THE AUTHOR OF THE AKRON PAMPHLETS**
Perhaps not Ed W., but Evan W. or Irvin W.

See Message #2469 from jayaa82@aol.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2469

"The Akron Pamphlets were commissioned by Dr. Bob but written by Evan W. an
Akron member who had been a newspaper writer. Dr. Bob believed that the Big Book
might be too complicated for the "blue collar" member or others with little
education. The pamphlets are still printed and distributed by the Akron
Intergroup. Jay M."

But see First 226 Members Akron, OH AA Group http://hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc

There is no "Ed W." on that list, but there is no "Evan W." mentioned either.
Could "Evan W." be the man referred to as Irvin Whiteman in that list? The names
Irvin, Irwin, and so on, were regularly confused in the AA oral tradition -- see
for example all the different spellings of Irwin Meyerson's name.

0 -1 0 0
6349 BobR
Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/21/2010 4:15:00 PM

About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk
County, New York received a record, Alcoholics
Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have
transferred it to CD.

Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and
two of us are wondering if there is more to it.
Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere
so we can fill in the missing pieces?

This recording comes from 1947. Is there any
kind of copyright on it still in effect?

0 -1 0 0
6350 corafinch
Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/19/2010 6:40:00 PM

I couldn't seem to find the Maimonides reference (although Maimonides is known
for bridging science and faith), and the sense in which Spengler used the phrase
did not seem to expand on the Big Book meaning. This passage from Systematic
Theology (1886) by Augustus Hopkins Strong is somewhat interesting. It is part
of a footnote on pp 87-8. Strong has been discussing the various "proofs" for
the existence of God:

"The three forms of proof already mentioned, Cosmological, Teleological and
Anthropological may be likened to the three arches of a bridge over a wide and
rushing river. The bridge has only two defects but these defects are very
serious. First is that one cannot get on the bridge; the end toward the outer
bank is wholly lacking; the bridge of logical argument cannot be entered upon
except by assuming the validity of logical processes; this assumption takes for
granted at the outset the existence of a God who has made our faculties to act
correctly; we get on the bridge, not by logical processes but only by a leap of
intuition; and by assuming at the beginning the very thing which we set out to
prove. The second deficiency of the so-called bridge of argument is that when
one has gotten on he can never get off. The connection with the further bank is
also lacking. All the premises from which we argue being finite, we are
warranted in drawing only a finite conclusion. Argument cannot reach the
Infinite, and only an infinite being can be called God.

"We can get off from our logical bridge not by logical process but only by
another and final leap of intuition and by once more assuming the existence of
the infinite Being we had so vainly sought to reach by mere argument. The
process seems to be referred to in Job 11:7, 'Canst though by searching find out
God? Canst thou find out the almighty unto perfection?'"

I'm not implying the the Big Book authors were reading this book, but the
allegory seems similar, and may have made it to them by way of sermons or
lectures.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:
>
> The Bridge of Reason occurs in [Moses] Maimonides, eight hundred (or so) years
ago, and was picked up by Spengler in his magnum opus, The Decline of the West,
greatly publicized in the 1930s. I'm not sure if "the Bridge of Reason leads to
the Shore of Faith" is itself in Maimonides, but that's generally where the
Bridge has been deemed to lead. My guess is any Big Book use comes from
Maimonides through Spengler -- unless it's also in Lewis Browne, the one Jewish
religious writer we know Bill read.
>

0 -1 0 0
6351 russmuller@sbcglobal.net
Father Ralph Pfau-San Juan Batista-Calif Father Ralph Pfau-San Juan Batista-Calif 2/20/2010 9:35:00 PM

I was wondering if anyone has any history on
a retreat that was held annually by Father Ralph Pfau (1947)
I think it started in San Juan Batista, CA.

There has to be some people who have
attended in years past who can tell a story
or two!!! If you have ever attended this retreat and
have a story to tell, big or small, please
pass it on!

"My Retreat Booklet and the way of the Cross"

Chuck Chammberlin attended in 1952 -- John Gray
from Santa Cruz, California, was the Group Leader
for many years.

Thanks! Russ Muller russmuller@sbcglobal.net
(russmuller at sbcglobal.net)

0 -1 0 0
6352 Cherie'' H.
Re: Big Book Study Guide by Ken W. Big Book Study Guide by Ken W. 2/21/2010 11:36:00 PM

A few years ago I was in direct email communication
with Ken. He was a member of AAFriendsWorldWide
online AA group for some time. That is where I met
him. He has also been a member of other online AA
groups.

As far as I know is still alive, although it has
been some time since I was in contact with him.

Perhaps he is reading this and might respond?

--
AA Love and Hugs
Cherie'
Warren, MI
DOS 04/26/01

0 -1 0 0
6353 Bill Lash
Two AA History Presentations Two AA History Presentations 2/23/2010 8:29:00 AM

The Primary Purpose Group of Lynbrook NY presents:
An AA History Presentation with 250 Pictures of Early AA
with Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ
Saturday, March 13, 2010, 1:00PM – 5:00PM
Lynbrook Baptist Church
225 Earle Avenue, Lynbrook, NY 11563
Meeting place of the Primary Purpose Group of Lynbrook NY.
Pictures of the Washingtonians, Frank Buchman, Rowland Hazard, Cebra Graves,
Ebby T., Bill & Lois W., Bill W.'s parents & grandparents, Lois W.'s
parents, Dr. Bob & family, all the OH/VT places, Henrietta Seiberling, Bill
D., Ernie G., Clarence S., Sister Ignatia, all the N.Y./N.J. places, Charlie
Towns & Dr. Silkworth, Hank P., when the early literature was published, the
Rockefeller dinner, gravesites, etc.
It's very exciting, combining the stories with the images!!
Liberal refreshments will be provided.
For more information please visit www.ppglynbrook.net or call Derrick at
516-317-9237.
For the flyer go to www.justloveaudio.com & click on "Events".
**********
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS HISTORY WEEKEND III
“THE OXFORD GROUP ROOTS OF A.A.”
with Jay S. from Redondo Beach CA
and
Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ
August 20 – 22, 2010
At The Wilson House
(where Bill W. was born)
378 Village Street
East Dorset, VT 05253

Jay S. is an Oxford Group historian. He will be doing three presentations –
“The Early Roots of A.A.: The Akron Miracle”, “Varieties of Spiritual
Experience: James, Jung, Shoemaker & You”, and “What Ever Happened to the
Oxford Group?”.

Barefoot Bill has been studying and collecting AA history since 1994. He
will be doing a presentation on “Bill W. & Dr. Bob’s Oxford Group
Experience” and another one on “Oxford Group Meditation – How To Listen To
God”.

Schedule:
Friday night 8/20/10 9:00 to 10:45pm – Oxford Group (Moral Re-Armament)
movie
Saturday morning 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:20am – The Early Roots of A.A.: The
Akron Miracle
Saturday morning 8/21/10 10:40 to 11:55am – Bill W. & Dr. Bob’s Oxford Group
Experience
Saturday afternoon 8/21/10 1:00 to 2:20pm – Varieties of Spiritual
Experience: James,
Jung, Shoemaker & You
Saturday night 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:45pm – Oxford Group (Moral Re-Armament)
movie
Sunday morning 8/22/10 9:00 to 10:20am – Oxford Group Meditation: How To
Listen To God
Sunday morning 8/22/10 10:40 to 11:55am – What Ever Happened to the Oxford
Group?

For weekend and overnight reservations please call the Wilson House at
802-362-5524.
For more information please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell).
Audio CD’s of this event provided by Just Love Audio.
For the flyer go to www.justloveaudio.com & click on "Events".

0 -1 0 0
6354 Charles Knapp
Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/22/2010 1:58:00 AM

Hello Group,

I believe I have some history on these records. A few years ago, I
purchased an audio CD of what was being titled "Bill W.'s 1st Recorded
Talk." It said the talk was made in 1947, but gave no other information. When I
listened to it I heard a quote that I recognized. The quote was:

"Perhaps this is not the place to talk at length of my own recovery, of our A.A.
program in detail, or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow
alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The
accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous are headlined in the press of the world.
So I shall be content if I can remind myself, and any who would hear that
Alcoholics Anonymous is not, after all, a personal success story. It is instead,
the story of our colossal human failures now converted into the happiest kind of
usefulness by that divine alchemy -- the living grace of God."

I remember this from the 2005 International Convention in Toronto
because I saw this quote on one of the GSO Archives displays panels. Also from
that CD I recognized the talk Bill was giving was copied from a phonograph
record. In October 2006 while in New York doing some research at the GSO
Archives, I was able to piece together some history of this recording. At that
time I was the Archivist for Area 9 in Southern Californian and I found that it
had a Southern California connection other than just the location of his talk.

On Wednesday April 9, 1947, Bill came to Los Angeles and gave a talk at a big
open meeting. After the meeting a member from Los Angeles, who was in the
recording business, suggested to Bill that he should record his talks. This
member offered to provide Bill and AA his recording services, for a small fee,
of course. Sometime during that weekend, Bill shortened his talk and he made a
wire recording and this recording was pressed into a 16 inch record. Bill took
the recording back to New York and found a record company there that
would press records as needed. The member in Los Angeles wanted to press a
couple hundred records at one time, but Bill thought this would put an
unnecessary financial burden on the New York Office. Beside he didn't think they
would sell that many records.

Bill found a company in New York, without ties to AA, called Rockhill
Radio Company, on fiftith Street, that was willing to press one record at a time
or as many at one time as need. This way the New York office would not have to
fork out a lot of money all at once or keep track of any inventory. Bill even
negotiated a deal where the New York office would take all the orders and handle
the money from sales and this reduced the selling price of the records even
more.

We do not know the member's name from Los Angeles or the company he worked for.
However, in the file in New York where I found this
information was a yellowed business card from Specialty Records,
2719 W 7th Street Los Angeles with the name "Art" handwritten on the back. After
some searching I found that Art Rupe started Specialty Records in LA in 1946,
but it is not clear if Art was the member that made the suggestion or just
someone the AA member put Bill in touch with.

In a letter to the group secretaries from the New York office dated May 6, 1947
it offers these records for sale for $3.30 including shipping. Not everyone had
a phonograph that could play 16 inch records so the talk was made on two 12 inch
records, having a playing time of about 15 minutes (15 minutes is a very short
talk for Bill).

In this letter it stated that Bill was very reluctant on make any kind of
records, but finally gave in.

If anyone has a photo of these 2 records, I would love to have a copy for Area
9's file.

hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin


________________________________
From: BobR <rriley9945@aol.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 3:15:40 PM
Subject: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill

About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk
County, New York received a record, Alcoholics
Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have
transferred it to CD.

Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and
two of us are wondering if there is more to it.
Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere
so we can fill in the missing pieces?

This recording comes from 1947. Is there any
kind of copyright on it still in effect?

0 -1 0 0
6355 shakey
Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/23/2010 9:39:00 PM

I own a red record called Milestones of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill
from Rockhill Recording with an address on the label of 10 east 50th street new
york city.
ELdorado5-1860. it is a 78 record.
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, PA

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "BobR" <rriley9945@...> wrote:
>
> About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk
> County, New York received a record, Alcoholics
> Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have
> transferred it to CD.
>
> Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and
> two of us are wondering if there is more to it.
> Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere
> so we can fill in the missing pieces?
>
> This recording comes from 1947. Is there any
> kind of copyright on it still in effect?
>

0 -1 0 0
6356 bludahlia2003
Documentary film request - Miami Convention 1970 Documentary film request - Miami Convention 1970 2/24/2010 5:47:00 PM

We are producing a documentary film on the history of AA. We have had a lot of
help from AA historians and other archives, but at this point, we are actively
looking for photos or home movies of the 1970 AA Convention, held at the
Fountainebleau Hotel in Miami. Ideally, we'd love to have a shot of Bill W at
the podium, giving his closing talk. However, any shots of the convention –
signage, banners, a view from the back of the auditorium etc – would be very
helpful. We are aware of and will be observing the 11th tradition. Thanks for
any help you can give us.

My e-mail address is <bludahlia2003@yahoo.com>
(bludahlia2003 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
6357 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/23/2010 6:37:00 PM

I have these two recordings framed as well as a third recording made by same
company titled MILESTONES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS by Bill. The third recording
appears to be same vintage, all are red. How can I help you.





-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 10:58 pm
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill




Hello Group,

I believe I have some history on these records. A few years ago, I
purchased an audio CD of what was being titled "Bill W.'s 1st Recorded
Talk." It said the talk was made in 1947, but gave no other information. When I
listened to it I heard a quote that I recognized. The quote was:

"Perhaps this is not the place to talk at length of my own recovery, of our A.A.
program in detail, or of our astounding growth. This room is filled with fellow
alcoholics who know and practice the A.A. way of life as well as I. The
accomplishments of Alcoholics Anonymous are headlined in the press of the world.
So I shall be content if I can remind myself, and any who would hear that
Alcoholics Anonymous is not, after all, a personal success story. It is instead,
the story of our colossal human failures now converted into the happiest kind of
usefulness by that divine alchemy -- the living grace of God."

I remember this from the 2005 International Convention in Toronto
because I saw this quote on one of the GSO Archives displays panels. Also from
that CD I recognized the talk Bill was giving was copied from a phonograph
record. In October 2006 while in New York doing some research at the GSO
Archives, I was able to piece together some history of this recording. At that
time I was the Archivist for Area 9 in Southern Californian and I found that it
had a Southern California connection other than just the location of his talk.

On Wednesday April 9, 1947, Bill came to Los Angeles and gave a talk at a big
open meeting. After the meeting a member from Los Angeles, who was in the
recording business, suggested to Bill that he should record his talks. This
member offered to provide Bill and AA his recording services, for a small fee,
of course. Sometime during that weekend, Bill shortened his talk and he made a
wire recording and this recording was pressed into a 16 inch record. Bill took
the recording back to New York and found a record company there that
would press records as needed. The member in Los Angeles wanted to press a
couple hundred records at one time, but Bill thought this would put an
unnecessary financial burden on the New York Office. Beside he didn't think they
would sell that many records.

Bill found a company in New York, without ties to AA, called Rockhill
Radio Company, on fiftith Street, that was willing to press one record at a time
or as many at one time as need. This way the New York office would not have to
fork out a lot of money all at once or keep track of any inventory. Bill even
negotiated a deal where the New York office would take all the orders and handle
the money from sales and this reduced the selling price of the records even
more.

We do not know the member's name from Los Angeles or the company he worked for.
However, in the file in New York where I found this
information was a yellowed business card from Specialty Records,
2719 W 7th Street Los Angeles with the name "Art" handwritten on the back. After
some searching I found that Art Rupe started Specialty Records in LA in 1946,
but it is not clear if Art was the member that made the suggestion or just
someone the AA member put Bill in touch with.

In a letter to the group secretaries from the New York office dated May 6, 1947
it offers these records for sale for $3.30 including shipping. Not everyone had
a phonograph that could play 16 inch records so the talk was made on two 12 inch
records, having a playing time of about 15 minutes (15 minutes is a very short
talk for Bill).

In this letter it stated that Bill was very reluctant on make any kind of
records, but finally gave in.

If anyone has a photo of these 2 records, I would love to have a copy for Area
9's file.

hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin


________________________________
From: BobR <rriley9945@aol.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 3:15:40 PM
Subject: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill

About a year ago, our Archives here in Suffolk
County, New York received a record, Alcoholics
Anonymous A Talk With Bill disc 2. We have
transferred it to CD.

Although we have disc 2, it seems to cut off and
two of us are wondering if there is more to it.
Is there a recording of disc 1 out there somewhere
so we can fill in the missing pieces?

This recording comes from 1947. Is there any
kind of copyright on it still in effect?








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
6358 Tom Hickcox
Author''s Notes in early Little Red Books, 1946 to 1953 Author''s Notes in early Little Red Books, 1946 to 1953 2/28/2010 9:16:00 PM

Recently, I was reading on Hindsfoot.org
<http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html> about the Author's Note in the 1946
and 1949 printings of the Little Red Book, or, more precisely, "The
Twelve Steps" and "The Little Red Book."

I thought it might be a good idea to compare the Author's Notes from
the early printings of the Little Red Book. All the versions were
taken from volumes in my collection.

The Author's Note in the 1946 printing goes:

"This book was originally prepared as a series of notes for
Twelve-step Discussion meetings for new A.A. members. It proved to
be very effective and helpful. Many groups adopted it, using
mimeographed copies. The demand for this interpretation in book form
from both individuals and groups made printing advisable." This is
eight lines long in the book.

The next Author's Note is from what must be the first 1947 printing:

"The Interpretation of the 12 steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous
program was prepared from a series of notes originally used in Twelve
Step discussion meetings for new A.A. members. It proved to be very
effective and helpful. Many groups adopted it, using mimeographed
copies. The demand for the Interpretation in book form from both
individuals and groups made printing advisable." This version is ten
lines long in the book.

The Author's Note for the stated Second Printing, January 1947:

"This book was originally prepared as a series of notes for the
instruction of new A.A. members and as a source of ideas for
Twelve-step Discussion meetings. It proved helpful to both new and
old members, seeming to create great interest in the simple A.A.
fundamentals they too often missed in first reading the Big Book
'ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS.' It sent them back to the Big Book and kept
them reading it thus establishing a solidarity of understanding of
the A.A. Program that was good for the group as a whole. Many groups
adopted it using mimeographed copies. The demand for this
interpretation in book form from both individuals and groups made
printing advisable." Again a single paragraph but seventeen lines long.

The Author's Note for the unstated Third Printing, 1947:

"The material in this little red book is an outgrowth of a series of
notes originally prepared for '12-Steps' instruction to A.A.
beginners and as a source of ideas for A.A. discussion meetings. Its
distribution is founded on a desire to 'Carry the Message' in
recognition of our return to sane living after alcoholism has made
life all but impossible.

"Many groups, in meeting the A.A. need for instruction of new
members, have adopted this brief summarization of the A.A. Recovery
Program expounded in the Big Book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' as an
outline for study of that book. Worthwhile results have followed the
inauguration of weekly classes devoted to guidance of new members in
their quest for a better understanding of the '12 Steps' as a way of life.

"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a
solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship that has been good
for the groups as a whole. Consequently, there has been a closer
adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and application of
its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a noticeable reduction
in slips among our members." Note that this is three paragraphs
long and very expanded.

The Author's Note for the unstated Fourth Printing, 1948, is exactly
the same as the unstated Third Printing.

The title on the half-title pages for the preceding books is "The
Twelve Steps."

The Author's Note for the unstated Fifth Printing, 1949, is the same
for the first two paragraphs. However, the third paragraph is different:

"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a
solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship. They have brought
a closer adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and
application of its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a
noticeable reduction in slips among our members."

I would note that the Author's Note in both printings of the 50th
Anniversary Edition has a typo in the third paragraph. It has "with"
rather than "within" in the first sentence of that paragraph.

The Author's Note for the unstated Sixth Printing, 1950:

"The little (sic) Red Book evolved from a series of notes originally
prepared for 'Twelve Step' suggestions to A.A. beginners. It lends
supplementary aid to the study of the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,'
and contains many helpful topics for discussion meetings. Its
distribution is prompted by a desire to 'Carry the Message to
Alcoholics' in appreciation of our reprieve from alcoholic death.

"Many groups, in meeting the A.A. need for instruction of new
members, have adopted this brief summarization of the A.A. Recovery
Program expounded in the Big Book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' as an
outline for study of that book. Worthwhile results have followed the
inauguration of weekly classes devoted to guidance of new members in
their quest for a better understanding of the '12 Steps' as a way of life.

"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a
solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship. They have brought
a closer adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and
application of its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a much
higher ratio of sobriety among our members."

It refers to the book as "The little Red Book" and changes the second
half of the first paragraph, leaving the second paragraph
unchanged. The last phrase of the third paragraph is changed from "a
noticeable reduction in slips among our members" to "a much higher
ratio of sobriety among our members." I will leave it to the experts
to rationalize the change.

The Author's Note to the Seventh Printing, 1951, is identical to the
Author's Note for the Sixth Printing.

The Author's Note to the Eighth Printing, 1952, is slightly changed
from the Author's Note for the Sixth and Seventh:

"The Little Red Book evolved from a series of notes originally
prepared for 'Twelve Step' suggestions to A.A. beginners. It aids in
the study of the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' and contains many
helpful topics for discussion meetings. Its distribution is prompted
by a desire to 'Carry the Message to Alcoholics' in appreciation of
our daily reprieve from alcoholic death.

"Many groups, in meeting the A.A. need for instruction of new
members, have adopted this brief summarization of the A.A. Recovery
Program expounded in the Big Book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous,' as an
outline for study of that book. Worthwhile results have followed the
inauguration of weekly classes devoted to guidance of new members in
their quest for a better understanding of the '12 Steps' As a Way of
Life for recovery from alcoholism.

"These classes, directed by qualified members, have created a
solidarity of understanding within our Fellowship. They have brought
a closer adherence to the Big Book, better understanding and
application of its philosophy, more effective sponsorship and a much
higher ratio of sobriety among our members.

"It is our hope that this Little Red Book may open new avenues of
thought and be helpful to the individual A.A. member in arriving at
his own successful interpretation of the program." "Little" is
capitalized in the first sentence, the second sentence is changed, ".
. .recovery from alcoholism" is added to the last sentence of the
second paragraph, and a fourth paragraph is added.

The Author's Note to the Ninth Printing, 1953 is exactly the same as
that for the Eighth.

This is a good stopping point. There wasn't an unstated Tenth
Printing and printing numbers were assigned starting with the
Eleventh Printing. I would note, though, that we have ten different
printings here, all different in some respect. Maybe Coll-Webb knew
how to count after all!

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
6359 pamelafro88
Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps 2/28/2010 11:30:00 PM

have just come across a reference in Australian AA archives that in 1947 '1000
copies "Interpretations the Twelve Steps" received - 6d. each' Does anyone know
what this pamphlet/booklet is? Are there any copies still available?

- - - -

From the moderator:

If the date is 1947, it can't be the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions book
that Bill Wilson published in 1953, also a price of five pence sounds much too
low for that big a book. (This is assuming that five pence Australian would have
been roughly equivalent to five pence in British pounds sterling, prior to the
introduction of the modern Australian decimal currency in 1966.)

The most commonly used pamphlet (by far) in AA around that time was one whose
formal title was "Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps."
It had been printed by local AA groups all over the United States starting from
around 1943. It was referred to in different parts of the United States by
various names: the Tablemate, the Table Leader's Guide, the Washington DC
Pamphlet, the Detroit Pamphlet, and so on. The pamphlets cost 40 cents each from
the Detroit intergroup office several years ago, but would have been much
cheaper back in 1947. For an introduction to it, and a copy of it, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html
and so on.

Another possibility, though probably less likely, would be the pamphlet entitled
"A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous" which was written and
printed in Akron, Ohio at some point during the 1940's. For a copy of it, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/Akr12.html

The Texas Pamphlet was written in Houston, Texas in 1940 but it would seem odd
to refer to it as "Interpretations the Twelve Steps." Nevertheless, see
AAHistoryLovers messages 3758 and following for a copy of that, if you'd like to
look at it:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3758

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)

0 -1 0 0
6360 Charlie C
Draft Copies: books about drink Draft Copies: books about drink 2/25/2010 7:56:00 AM

Sorry, but just couldn't resist - abebooks.com, the major internet used book
site, has in their current newlestter the theme of "Draft Copies: Books about
Drink." So yes, a history of US beer cans 1930-1980 etc., lol., but also some
titles related to sobriety, e.g. Peabody's "The Common Sense of Drinking." You
can see the newsletter by going to abebooks.com and scrolling down on the left
to "Recently Featured," or here is the direct link :

http://www.abebooks.com/books/author-alcohol-drunk-kingsley-amis/cocktail-drinki\
ng.shtml?cm_mmc=nl-_-nl-_-h00-bdrinkA-_-cta-search



Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

0 -1 0 0
6361 Dougbert
The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? 3/1/2010 6:53:00 PM

To All,

I have just purchased a very nice copy of The Little Red Book, 1957 edition.
What I see different is that this copy is published by Hazelden.

I also see you can buy new copies of The Little Red Bood published by BN
Publishing, but I have not done a page by page audit of the two books to
determine what changed.

Why would Hazelden give up such a good historical document?

Dougbert

- - - -

From the moderator:

Minneapolis AA members Ed Webster and Barry Collins originally published The
Little Red Book themselves, under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in
Minneapolis. They called themselves the "Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" from their
two last names.

Roughly around the time of Ed Webster's death on June 3, 1971, the Hazelden
Foundation took over publishing it -- see http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html -- and
then for many years Hazelden was given as the publisher.

The current Amazon.com listing for The Little Red Book, however, now has on the
copyright page:

Copyright 2007 BN Publishing
www.bnpublishing.net

This may be a subsidiary of Barnes & Noble, but I cannot determine this for
sure. See http://www.bn.com/

0 -1 0 0
6362 aalogsdon@aol.com
Re: Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill Rockhill Recording: A Talk With Bill 2/26/2010 12:06:00 PM

The three red 1947 recordings I have bear the same information plus Rockhill
Radio. No speed is indicated in the space shown for speed. I have a later
recording LAST MAJOR TALK OF "DR BOB" which shows Rockhill Recording made by
Rockhill Radio, 18 East 50 Street, New York City, Plaza 9-7979. Speed shown as
33 RPM. It is black in color.

0 -1 0 0
6363 bevflk@aol.com
Re: Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps 3/1/2010 12:29:00 PM

From Beverly, David Jones, john wikelius,
Dougbert, and Glenn C.:

- - - -

The original message 6359 from <pamelafro@bigfoot.com>
(pamelafro at bigfoot.com) in Australia said:

have just come across a reference in Australian
AA archives that in 1947 '1000 copies "Interpretations
the Twelve Steps" received - 6d. each' Does anyone
know what this pamphlet/booklet is? Are there any
copies still available?

- - - -

From Beverly <bevflk@aol.com> (bevflk at aol.com)

If you go to The Detroit Pamphlet you will find
it there, ok. I hope this helps you out.

For an introduction to this pamphlet and a copy of it, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html
and so on.

- - - -

From: David Jones <jonesd926@aol.com>
(jonesd926 at aol.com)

Try these links:

http://www.eskimo.com/~burked/history/tablemat.html

http://aaitems.com/An_Interpretation_of_Alcoholics_Anonymous_Program_of_the_The_\
Twelve_Steps-details.aspx


God bless
Dave

- - - -

From the moderator:

The first link is to one of the many online copies of the Detroit Pamphlet which
Beverly mentioned above, also called the Washington DC Pamphlet, the Tablemate,
the Table Leader's Guide, etc.

The second link is to an early edition of The Little Red Book, see the next
message below.

- - - -

From john wikelius <justjohn1431946@yahoo.com>
(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)
and Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com>
(dougbert8 at yahoo.com)

That is the original name for the Little Red Blook first published in 1946. They
are still around but purchase price is up there.

Could this be a foreign export of The Little Red Book?

- - - -

From the moderator:

See my comment in the previous message. In 1947
Australia was still using a currency based on
and tied to the British system of pounds, shillings,
and pence.

Wikipedia says:
"In 1940, an agreement with the U.S.A. pegged the pound to the U.S. dollar at a
rate of 1 pound = 4.03 dollars. This rate was maintained through the Second
World War and became part of the Bretton Woods system which governed post-war
exchange rates. Under continuing economic pressure, and despite months of
denials that it would do so, on 19 September 1949 the government devalued the
pound by 30.5% to $2.80. The move prompted several other currencies to be
devalued against the dollar."

At 240 pence to a pound, a penny would have been
worth 1.68 cents in U.S. currency.

If the booklet in question was being sold in Australia for five pence, that
would have been 8.40 cents in U.S. currency.

I do not know the price for which Ed Webster's Little Red Book was being sold in
1946 and 1947, but I can hardly imagine them being able to sell a book that big
for only eight and a half cents a copy. In terms of what the U.S. dollar was
worth in the mid 1940's, eight and a half cents was a pamphlet, not book.

Can Tommy Hickcox or anybody tell us what The Little Red Book was sold for in
its 1946 and 1947 printings?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)

0 -1 0 0
6364 Tom Hickcox
Re: Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps Pamphlet/booklet called Interpretations the Twelve Steps 3/2/2010 12:10:00 AM

Arizona Jack H. has a letter from Charlotte Lappen of the NY Office
to Ed Webster dated August 26th 1947 referencing a price for The
Little Red Book of $1.50.

When Coll-Webb started putting dust jackets on the book with either
the 11th Printing 1955 or 12th 1957, the price on the jacket for both
The Little Red Book and Stools and Bottles was $2.35. This appears
to have been raised to $2.50 for the 13th Printing 1959.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

The original message 6359 from <pamelafro@bigfoot.com>
(pamelafro at bigfoot.com) in Australia said:

have just come across a reference in Australian
AA archives that in 1947 '1000 copies "Interpretations
the Twelve Steps" received - 6d. each' Does anyone
know what this pamphlet/booklet is? Are there any
copies still available?

- - - -

Glenn C. wrote in Message #6363 (making one slight numerical correction):

At 1 pound = 4.03 dollars and 240 pence to a pound, a British / Australian penny
would have been worth 1.68 cents in U.S. currency.

>If the booklet in question was being sold in Australia for six
>pence, that would have been 10 cents in U.S. currency.
>
>I do not know the price for which Ed Webster's Little Red Book was
>being sold in 1946 and 1947, but I can hardly imagine them being
>able to sell a book that big for only ten cents a copy.
>In terms of what the U.S. dollar was worth in the mid 1940's, ten cents was a
pamphlet, not book.
>
>Can Tommy Hickcox or anybody tell us what The Little Red Book was
>sold for in its 1946 and 1947 printings?
>
>Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)
>

0 -1 0 0
6365 schaberg43
Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/2/2010 12:25:00 PM

I have long been told that when the Big Book was published in April of 1939,
there were only TWO meetings established - one in Akron and one in Brooklyn.

Can anyone confirm this?

And, if true, can anyone tell me on what nights those two meeting actually met?

Thanks,

Old Bill

0 -1 0 0
6366 Arthur S
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/2/2010 5:51:00 PM

Hi Bill

There were only two groups in April 1939 (Akron and NY) and they held weekly
meetings. Akron meetings were on Wednesday night at T Henry and Clarace
Williams' house on 676 Palisades Dr in Akron, Ohio. NY meetings were at Bill
and Lois' home, 182 Clinton St, Brooklyn NY on Tuesday nights.

Near the end of April 1939, Bill and Lois were evicted from their home. For
a time NY meetings were held at Bert T's tailor shop (and possibly some
other locations). In February 1940, the first clubhouse was rented at 334 ½
W 24th St in NY City and meetings were held there.

In early May 1939, led by pioneer member Clarence S, the Cleveland members
announced that they would meet separately from Akron and the Oxford Group at
the home of Grace and Abby G at 2345 Stillman Rd, Cleveland Heights in
Cleveland.

In October 1939, Akron members severed their ties to the Oxford Group.
Meetings then moved to Dr Bob's house. In January 1940, Akron meetings moved
to King School on Wednesday night.

Cheers

Arthur



From: schaberg43
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:25 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939

I have long been told that when the Big Book was published in April of 1939,
there were only TWO meetings established - one in Akron and one in Brooklyn.

Can anyone confirm this?

And, if true, can anyone tell me on what nights those two meeting actually
met?

Thanks,

Old Bill

0 -1 0 0
6367 J. Lobdell
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/2/2010 6:07:00 PM

Henrietta records the meeting that moved to King School as being on Wednesday
evening, which is the evening on which the King School Group still meets in
Akron. The First Big Book Sold was signed by Bill at Clinton St the night of
publication (given by Library of Congress as April 10 1939, a Monday), but Ginny
M's notation suggests to me (though not strongly) that the meeting at which the
next signatures were added was not that night, and I have a dim recollection of
hearing that the Clinton St. meetings were on Tuesday. But that's open to
correction and it could have been Monday -- and it could have varied, or they
could have gotten together on publication night. Or Bill could have gotten the
copies the next day for a regular Tuesday meeting. Or ... The Akron Meeting was
evidently on Wednesday, though I don't know if that's held for all 75 years.

0 -1 0 0
6368 Michael
Let it begin with me Let it begin with me 3/2/2010 9:09:00 PM

In AA Comes of Age they talk about opening the
meeting at Denver 1975 International Convention
with "let it Begin with Me."

How can I a copy of this?

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa6thintl1975.html

The Sixth A.A. International Convention
Denver, CO, 1975
by Nancy O.

"The opening session on Friday night began with a flag ceremony. As the name of
each country was called over the public address system, spotlights shown on the
flag, and, with music from the country (perhaps its national anthem) being
played, its flag was carried down the aisle and onto the stage."

"AAs from 29 countries paraded their flags. When they arrived on the stage, each
flag bearer stepped up to the microphone and repeated the conference theme, "Let
It Begin With Me," in his or her native language."

But also see the Al-Anon Declaration, where the phrase "Let it begin with me"
also occurs:

http://www.ncwsa.org/Docs/FAQ/Al-Anon_Info_On_Declaration.pdf

0 -1 0 0
6369 Bill Lash
182 Clinton Street Now For Sale 182 Clinton Street Now For Sale 3/4/2010 8:16:00 AM

182 Clinton Street (where Bill & Lois W. lived
when he got sober) is currently for sale:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/nyregion/14fyi.html

0 -1 0 0
6370 dad_s0n
Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View 3/4/2010 11:53:00 AM

A MEMBER'S EYE VIEW

I was asked about 20 minutes ago did I know who the author of that pamphlet was
(or the person whose talk it is of). I have no idea but some feel because I have
a little knowledge of AA's roots that I may have answers to a lot more.

Hope you fellas and gals can help me with this one as well.

David (27 years sober and loving it.)

- - - -

From the moderator G.C.

For a read-only copy of the pamphlet see:

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-41_amemberseyeviewofaa.pdf

This is AAWS conference pamphlet P-41 "A Member's Eye View of Alcoholics
Anonymous." At the beginning it says:

"The author of this paper delivered it first before a class on alcoholism
counseling at one of our large universities. A.A. World Services, Inc. wishes to
thank him for his generous permission to reprint and distribute this talk."

In the talk, he says on page 10 that Bill W. and Dr. Bob met one another "33
years ago," so 33 + 1935 means that the talk was given in 1968. Dr. Bob was dead
by that time, but as the pamphlet says on page 7, Bill W. was still living. The
author of the pamphlet says that he first came to A.A. "more than 16 years ago"
(see page 27, also page 26) which means c. 1952.

This means he would have come into the program just a little after people like
Searcy W. (in Dallas), Sgt. Bill S. (The Psychology of Alcoholism), and Mel B.
(who is such a valued member of the AAHistoryLovers).

LET US BE MINDFUL AT ALL TIMES OF THE PRINCIPLE OF ANONYMITY. The
AAHistoryLovers is a public forum. We must use the same guidelines that would be
used for an article or (if the person is dead) for an obituary in your local
newspaper.

0 -1 0 0
6371 jlobdell54
In Memoriam and Thanks to Michael Alexander [Lazaroff] In Memoriam and Thanks to Michael Alexander [Lazaroff] 3/2/2010 11:01:00 AM

Michael Alexander [Lazaroff] born in Macedonia July 17 1921 died on February 16
2010 in his 89th year. He was a graduate of the University of Pittsburgh in
1943, a Captain in WW2, and a graduate of Harvard Law in 1949. More to our
point, he was the Emeritus Class A Trustee of AA who was New York's
institutional memory going back to his days as a young(er) attorney with Bern
Smith; he was the friend who brought Bill W the copy of Tocqueville's DEMOCRACY
IN AMERICA that informed the Twelve Concepts (but he told me it wasn't his
copy); he was a longtime Trustee and past Chairman of the Board; and he was an
unfailingly courteous answerer of historical questions (and I sat next to him at
dinners as often as I could). Michael Alexander -- Thanks! Requiescat in Pace.

0 -1 0 0
6372 Sober186@aol.com
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/3/2010 2:45:00 PM

Were the Akron meetings before the move to
Kings School AA meetings or Oxford Group meetings
attended by some drying out drunks?

Jim L. Columbus, OH

0 -1 0 0
6373 Tom Hickcox
Re: The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? 3/4/2010 7:43:00 PM

I bought the book Barnes and Noble listed. The one I received is 6"
x 9", 88 pages long, with a bright red paperback cover with the title
"The Little Red Book" in white letters. It is published and
copyrighted by Wilder Publications. However, its text is very close
to the Hazelden book.

I compared it with a more or less current version of Hazelden's LRB,
The First Harper and Row Edition published in 1987. It is the same
general size as the smaller version has been since Hazelden started
publishing it in the middle 1960s. The first Hazelden sticker in a
Coll-Webb series LRB was in a 21st Printing, 1967.

The Wilder book does not have the Author's Note nor the
Dedication. Its Table of Contents is expanded compared with the
Hazelden/Harper.

I compared the chapters of two different steps and the texts were
almost exactly the same. The Wilder book does not have most of the
footnotes and those it has are incorporated into the text rather than
being at the bottom of the page. Most of the footnotes suggest that
the reader read portions of the Big Book. There was one footnote
left out that I think is important, and that is found at the bottom
of p. 125 in the Hazelden/Harper book. It doesn't reference the
quote taken from Fritz Mayo's story, "Our Southern Friend."

Many of the paragraphs thru the Hazelden/Harper book have been broken
into two paragraphs in the Wilder book, but the text was not changed.

The Wilder book lacks "Questions and Answers" and "We Don't Have To - But!"

So, the Wilder book is an approximation of The Little Red Book that
AFAIK Hazelden still publishes, lacking some important parts as well
as most foot notes, which usually suggest a portion of the Big Book
to be read before reading that part of The Little Red Book.

I would have thought Hazelden's copyright would preclude books like this.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)

One additional item to note about this is that it is not a 1957
edition. Hazelden used 1957 date for many of the copies published since they
acquired the rights in 1971.

The true 1957 version does not have Hazelden as its publisher.

- - - -

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

At 17:53 3/1/2010, Dougbert wrote:

>To All,
>
>I have just purchased a very nice copy of The Little Red Book, 1957
>edition. What I see different is that this copy is published by Hazelden.
>
>I also see you can buy new copies of The Little Red Bood published
>by BN Publishing, but I have not done a page by page audit of the
>two books to determine what changed.
>
>Why would Hazelden give up such a good historical document?
>
>Dougbert
>
>- - - -
>
> >From the moderator:
>
>Minneapolis AA members Ed Webster and Barry Collins originally
>published The Little Red Book themselves, under the sponsorship of
>the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. They called themselves the
>"Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" from their two last names.
>
>Roughly around the time of Ed Webster's death on June 3, 1971, the
>Hazelden Foundation took over publishing it -- see
>http://hindsfoot.org/ed02.html -- and then for many years Hazelden
>was given as the publisher.
>
>The current Amazon.com listing for The Little Red Book, however, now
>has on the copyright page:
>
>Copyright 2007 BN Publishing
>www.bnpublishing.net
>
>This may be a subsidiary of Barnes & Noble, but I cannot determine
>this for sure. See http://www.bn.com/
>

0 -1 0 0
6374 Robert Stonebraker
Beginners lessons: 4D Big Book studies Beginners lessons: 4D Big Book studies 2/22/2010 11:40:00 PM

I first met members of the Fourth Dimension Group at a meeting in a small
office at 350 Royal Palm Way, Palm Beach, Florida in 1985. On this occasion
the chairperson, a tough looking ex-football player, Del H., told me to shut
my mouth or get out the door! Actually, the language was a bit more basic
than that, but I continue to thank God for the good sense that allowed me to
remain in that room and begin listening. I had been reading the Big Book
regularly throughout my nine years of sobriety, but had not properly studied
it; therefore, was living in great ignorance.

Del had been attending meetings Texas, but not staying sober; then he
started STUDYING the Big Book on his own, thereby learning an effective AA
program of action. Living in the spirit of said information kept him sober
till his death in the 1990s.

The not-so-big meeting (maybe 15 members) placed emphasis on Big Book
solutions for the ones who kept getting drunk, as well as newcomers. The
members were taught to read out loud at the meetings from the part of the
basic text which was applicable to their current situation or problem. Del
was adamant concerning not ever telling the seeker the answer - he was
supposed to read it aloud at the meeting . This great method made the
answer sink in: deep and clear!

Interestingly this group would buy newcomers their breakfast at a coffee
shop near an unused nearby real estate office and work them through the
12-Step process in about twelve hours. UNHEARD OF! But yet it worked so
well that the group grew by leaps and bounds, and other once-antagonistic
groups began sending their hard cases. But after Del's demise, the group
eventually folded.

In 1987 the modus operandi changed when yours truly started a somewhat
similar style meeting in Santa Monica, California. This new group became a
systematic: "teaching-line-and-verse-directly-from-the-Big
Book-style-meeting," but this was no longer a 'problem solving' meeting.
We studied through page 103 in about thirteen weeks, then started over
again.

RICHMOND, INDIANA:

In 1989, my new wife, Deanna and I started a near same format AA
meeting in Richmond, Indiana. These meetings were no fun meetings, e.g., no
experience, strength or hope, nor were [are] opinions allowed. No fun!! We
teach and the audience listens! Yes, but members did come! About 20 of
these meetings in now exist in NYC, California, Florida, Ohio, Kentucky and
Indiana.

So, this completes your I-am-sure-too-long-of-an-answer: Del H. started the
early Florida meetings in the mid 1980s, Then, Yours Truly, started the
current 'teaching style' Fourth Dimension Group Meetings in 1987.

For further Fourth Dimension Group information, meeting handouts, AA
recordings, 4D meeting schedule [incomplete], popular AA websites and much
more, go to: http://www.4dgroups.org

Bob

P.S. There are plans in the making for a 4D history booklet

P.S. For the sake of further research, the full name of now deceased
Florida founder, Del H., available upon request.

0 -1 0 0
6375 jenny andrews
RE: Early AA beginners lessons Early AA beginners lessons 2/22/2010 5:40:00 AM

From tcumming and jennylaurie:

- - - -

From: t <tcumming@nc.rr.com> (tcumming at nc.rr.com)

The first two paragraphs .... does that make any sense? If the AA's in Cleveland
were being stretched so thin answering those "many hundreds of pleas for help"
just how much time could they devote to "actively pursuing drunks" off barstools
and street corners? Yeah, I know that a lot of those pleas were from family
members rather than the drunks themselves [who might have been on stools or
street corners], but my take on the history of that time is that as soon as that
was determined, the AAs moved on to other prospects that were at their bottom
and wanting to quit drinking ... not needing to be dragged to the meetings.

I am sure it did happen some, but probably not that different than today. Newly
sober member gets enthusiastic about the program and goes out trying to 'save'
his old drinking buddies/family members .... AND IT WORKS!!!! either the buddy
starts coming to meeting too, or more often, they both go out and get drunk
together again.
______________________________

"Initial growth in Alcoholics Anonymous took place in Cleveland, Ohio. Clarence
S. and the guys went out actively pursuing drunks and brought them off bar
stools and street corners. We don't do that today, but we were doing it back
then [late 1930's and 1940's]. And it worked!"
"In early 1940, when there were about 1,000 members of AA, more than half were
from Cleveland. The book 'AA Comes of Age' talks about it on pages 20 and 21:
'It was soon evident that a scheme of personal sponsorship would have to be
devised for the new people. Each prospect was assigned an older AA, who visited
him at his home or in the hospital, instructed him on AA principles, and
conducted him to his first meeting.' So even back in the early days the sponsor
was taking the sponsee to meetings and getting together with him, rather than
having the sponsee track the sponsor down. 'AA Comes of Age' continues by
saying, 'But in the face of many hundreds of pleas for help, the supply of
elders could not possibly match the demand. Brand-new AA's, sober only a month
or even a week, had to sponsor alcoholics still drying up in hospitals.'"
______________________________

Probably just me, but this article comes off as a bad sales pitch that I've
heard too many times -- Old AA was so much better than New AA ... New AA is just
plain lazy, and lets treatment centers do all it's work, people in the New AA
just won't help the poor suffering alcoholic. And come to think of it, didn't a
certain series of articles in the Cleveland paper have 'just a little' bit to do
with that flood of hundreds of pleas for help?

The article goes on to say in the fourth paragraph:
______________________________

"During the winter of 1941 the Crawford Group (founded in February 1941)
organized a separate group to help newcomers through the Steps. By the first
issue of the Cleveland Central Bulletin, October 1942, the Crawford 'Beginners'
Class' was listed as a separate meeting. And in the second issue, in November
1942, there was an article entitled 'Crawford Men's Training.' This refers to
possibly the first 'Beginners' Class.' 'The Crawford Men's Training System has
been highly acclaimed to many. Old AA's are asked to come to these meetings with
or without new prospects, where new prospects will be given individual attention
just as though they were in a hospital .... it was during that detox that
sometimes ten and twenty AA members came to visit the new person. And each hour
the prospect was awake he would hear someone's story -- over and over again ....
'The Miles Group reports they have enjoyed unusual success with their training
meetings. The newcomer is not permitted to attend a regular AA meeting until he
has been given a thorough knowledge of the work' .... You didn't just sit there
-- you had already completed the steps when you went to your first AA meeting.
'From 15 to 20 participate at each training meeting and new members are
thoroughly indoctrinated'" .... etc., etc.
______________________________

In these quotes, the author of this talk is saying that the participants in the
Beginner Classes "WORKED / COMPLETED" the Steps ... yet the quotes he gives from
each of those Beginner Classes use the terms:

**given individual attention
**hear someone's story
**given a thorough knowledge of the work
**thoroughly indoctrinated
**more advantageously present the Twelve Steps
**discussed
**for the purpose of acquainting

Studying the steps is not the same as taking the steps. The language quoted from
the individual Beginner Meeting sources use terms more in line with introducing,
presenting, discussing and studying the 12 Steps ... so the newcomer will be
given a fair understanding of what will need to be done to learn how to live
sober while practicing the AA program. I just don't see any of them presenting
their Beginner Meetings as a way to WORK or COMPLETE the 12 Steps in their few
weeks together.

The letter from Bobbie B., Bill W.'s secretary, says (about these pamphlets used
for beginners lessons) that "very few have caused any controversy." And "Ruth
recalled that the classes were discontinued in the mid-1950s as the result of
the publication of the book 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions' by Alcoholics
Anonymous Publishing Inc. In the Miami area the 'Twelve and Twelve' replaced
both the 'Big Book' and the 'Little Red Book' and 'Step Studies' replaced the
'Beginners' Classes.' In the process, the period for taking the Steps was
expanded and modified from 4 weeks to somewhere in between 12 and 16 weeks."

My own perspective as to why the Beginner's classes died away is very different,
and has to do with creating controversy, and the adoption of our 12 Traditions.

The "controversy" part ... when the Grapevine started publishing those articles
on 4 areas where Beginner's Classes were held... well, some were followed up in
the Letters to the Editor column ... and not always with glowing recommendations
[check our group archives for back in 2005 I think, the original GV articles and
the follow-up Letters were posted to this group].

The "12 Traditions" part ... in most places the Beginner Classes were being
used as an introduction to the AA program and unfortunately, were REQUIRED to be
completed before a new member could join AA by attending regular meetings. After
the Traditions were adopted [and the 12&12 was published] it became really hard
to reconcile required Beginner Classes with our Third Tradition... "The only
requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking."
NOT attending 4-6 Beginner classes, with or without other requirements included
in various parts of the country such as having a sponsor vouch for you, passing
a qualifying interview with a supervising board, COMPLETING all 12 Steps, etc.

I just can't imagine requiring someone to go to classes and complete all 12
steps before they could join AA. And I can only imagine how many may have rushed
to complete the steps in only 4 weeks and then decided that they didn't need AA
... after all hadn't they finished the Steps and got sober? - what more did AA
have to offer. To a 30-day-sober brain that might well have made some sort of
sense.

- - - -

jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

These "boot camps" seem much more structured and prescriptive than
the account in the Big Book (A Vision for You), viz: "... though they knew they
must help other alcoholics if they would remain sober, that motive became
secondary. It was transcended by the happiness they found in giving themselves
for others. They shared their homes, their slender resources, and gladly devoted
their spare hours to fellow-sufferers. They were willing, by day or night, to
place a new man (sic) in hospital and visit him afterward... A year and six
months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing much of each
other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter a little
gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly thinking how
they might present their discovery to some newcomers. In addition to these
casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night of the week for
a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way of
life. Aside from the fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide
time and place where new people might bring their problems ... Many a distracted
wife has visited this house to find loving and understanding companionship among
women who knew her problem, to hear from the lips of their husbands what had
happened to them, to be advised how her own mate might be hospitalized and
approached when next he stumbled. Many a man, yet dazed from the hospital
experience, has stepped over the threshold into freedom. Many an alcoholic who
entered there came away with an answer. He succumbed to that gay crowd inside,
who laughed at their own misfortunes and understood his. Impressed by those who
visited him at the hospital, he capitulated entirely when, later, in an upper
room .... he heard the story of some man whose experience closely tallied with
his own ... The very practical approach to his problems, the absence of
intolerance of any kind, the informality (emphasis added), the genuine
democracy, the uncanny understanding which these people had were irresistible
... Under only slightly different conditions, the same thing is taking place in
many eastern cities ..."

- - - -

Original message no. 6348:

EARLY AA BEGINNERS LESSONS
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6348

0 -1 0 0
6376 Jason Clemons
Wytheville, Virginia -- Old Man Vaughn Wytheville, Virginia -- Old Man Vaughn 3/4/2010 3:35:00 PM

I am seeking any information on the origins of
AA in and around Wytheville, Virginia. There
was a recent celebration of the 59th anniversary
of the Wytheville Group (Feb. 9th) and there
were rumors that the group was founded by one
of the Vaughn brothers who were responsible for
a booming furniture business

http://www.vaughanfurniture.com/About/tabid/56/Default.aspx

in the area.

Thank you,
Jason Clemons

--
Learning how to live in the greatest peace, partnership, and brotherhood
with all men and women, of whatever description, is a moving and fascinating
adventure.

Jason Clemons
601 B Washington Street
Blacksburg, VA 24060
(h) (540)552-3819
(c) (540)230-4329

0 -1 0 0
6377 Arthur S
RE: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View 3/5/2010 7:53:00 AM

The author of the "Member's Eye View" talk was
Allan McG of Southern California

Info below is from Bob P's unpublished history of AA:

"A Member's-Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous," one of the most powerful and
popular pamphlets in the AA library, almost never saw the light of day.

Trustee Bayard P, an executive with a large advertising agency in New York,
while on a business trip to California with his wife, Majorie (also active in
the program), look up an old associate at the agency (and fellow AA member),
Allan McG.

(Parenthetically, past trustee George D remembers Allan McG as a leader in
Southern California AA when he joined in 1961, and says of him, "He was the most
interesting man I ever met, the most stimulating. He was brilliantly articulate
and touched many, many people.")

When Allan met Bayard and Marjorie P for dinner, he mentioned to them that he
was making his annual speech about Alcoholics Anonymous to a class at UCLA which
he had done for a number of years They asked him if he had a manuscript of the
talk, which he later showed them; it was called "A Members Eye View of AA"

"We were absolutely thrilled by it," recalls Bayard. "It was the best thing of
the kind we'd ever read, and we asked Allan's permission to take it back to New
York and see if it could be an AA publication. Which we did."

Cheers

Arthur

0 -1 0 0
6378 michellemirza@ymail.com
Dr. Elizabeth Beckman Dr. Elizabeth Beckman 3/5/2010 12:11:00 PM

Hello! Anyone ever came across the name "Dr. Elizabeth Beckman?" She was a
pioneer in the field of Psychology (1940s)and may have taught at a University in
Peensylvania. I was told that one of her students was inspired by her work and
went on to become one of our early pioneers in a particular city. Any clue? Your
help is greatly appreciated. M

0 -1 0 0
6379 James Bliss
Re: The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? 3/5/2010 6:42:00 PM

Hazelden does still publish the Littel Red Book:
http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=3831&sitex=10020:22372\
:US


Interesting that they list the year published as 1967. But, this would
match the date Tom lists for the first sticker.

I would be interested in the copyright in the front of the BN version of the
Little Red Book, the year and what it says.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
6380 Charles Knapp
Re: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View 3/4/2010 7:21:00 PM

From Charles Knapp, Don B. (Chicago),
John Schram, and Gary Becktell.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>
(cpknapp at yahoo.com)

Hello,

Allen McG., from Southern California (Area 5) authored this pamphlet. He gave
an annual talk to some class at UCLA.

Around 1968 or 1969 a trustee from New York was visiting California and met
Allen McG. Allen mentioned to the trustee about his annual talk and showed him
a copy of his speech entitled "A Member's View of AA." The Trustee was very
impressed and asked if he could take it back to New York and show it to the
Conference Literature Committee.

It was very well received with one exception -- it was only one person's view.
Nevertheless it was submitted and approved by the 1970 General Service
Conference.

My information came from notes I made off of a tape of Allen.

I do not have his sobriety date, but he did say on tape that he placed only one
condition on the use of his speech. He asked that nothing be changed from his
original talk. I do not know if his wish was granted, but there is a small
disclaimer at the beginning of the pamphlet that makes me believe it was.

I am no longer in So Cal, but maybe some one there can shed more light on this
member and his talk.

Hope this helps.

Charles in Wisconsin

- - - -

From Don B.

According to Tex Brown in Chicago, the author was Alan McG.

I knew Tex a long time. His sobriety date was February 1948 and he was 53 years
sober when he died. He had been to every International, including Cleveland.
When he told you something you could take it to the bank. I spent a lot of time
with him, he was a good friend of Tom Powers and many of the real old timers.

Don B.
Panel 53 Area 19 Chicago
Past Delegate

- - - -

From: "John Schram" <lasenby327@surfree.com>
(lasenby327 at surfree.com)

and "Gary Becktell" <gk@kitcarson.net>
(gk at kitcarson.net)

Alan McGinnis wrote "A Member's Eye View Of Alcoholics Anonymous."

0 -1 0 0
6381 Tom Hickcox
Re: The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? The Little Red Books published now by BN Publishing? 3/5/2010 10:38:00 PM

At 17:42 3/5/2010, James Bliss wrote:

>Hazelden does still publish the Littel Red Book:
>http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=3831&sitex=10020:2237\
2:US

>
>Interesting that they list the year published as 1967. But, this would
>match the date Tom lists for the first sticker.
>
>I would be interested in the copyright in the
>front of the BN version of the Little Red Book, the year and what it says.

I think there is a bit of confusion starting with
the original question. It looks as if the book
was listed on the BN web site, which apparently
has nothing to do with Barnes & Noble. The books
listed are sold thru Amazon, which is how I bought the book.

The copyright statement is © 2010 Wilder
Publications. Following this is the
statements: "This book is a product of its time
and does not reflect the same values as it would
if it were written today. Parents might wish to
discuss with their children how views on race
have changed before allowing them to read this classic work.

"All rights reserved. Printed in the United
States of America. No part of this book may be
used or reproduced in any manner without written
permission except for brief quotations for review purposes only."

Wilder Publications, Inc.
PO Box 243
Blacksburg, VA 24060

ISBN 10: 1-60459-948-0
ISBN 13: 978-60459-948-0

I am not competent to comment on the legalities
here, but I assume Hazelden still holds the
copyright to The Little Red Book. Wilder gives
them no credit yet their book is a direct copy.

Coll-Webb came up with a new copyright when they
had to update The Little Red Book when the Second
Edition Big Book came out with different
pagination. That copyright was in 1957 and was
used until another copyright was issued in 1975,
this time to Hazelden. There are a lot of
listings on eBay for the "1957 Edition."

I have suspected the original small format book
came out in the middle '60s as the Hazelden
address has a zip code and there isn't an ISBN
number for the book. Zip codes came out in 1963
and ISBNs in 1968. Hazelden put their sticker in
the 1967 Coll-Webb Little Red Book, the 21st
Printing. I had not seen their claim that they
started publishing it in 1967, but, as James says, that date fits.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
6382 Bill Lash
RE: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member''s Eye View 3/7/2010 8:26:00 AM

The author of the pamphlet "A Member's Eye View" is Allen McG. If you would
like to hear him speak, he used to do this really great Beginners' Workshop.
A copy of the 5-CD set of one of these Beginners' Workshops he did in
Brentwood CA in July 1968 can be purchased by going to
http://www.justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa & searching under his
name. The topics he talks about on this CD set are:

CD #1 - What is the point of my staying sober?
CD #2 - Is it necessary to have a spiritual experience?
CD #3 - What are the old ideas and how do you let go of them?
CD #4 - After the old ideas, then what?
CD #5 - Recap

Peace.

0 -1 0 0
6383 Tom
Question about royalty distributions Question about royalty distributions 3/8/2010 11:58:00 AM

I remember seeing a schedule of royalties received, by person, by year, for all
the AA publications.

I thought I saw it on this site, but I searched and just couldn't find it. Does
anybody know where I would find that?

Thanks,

Tomv

0 -1 0 0
6384 Michael Oates
Re: 182 Clinton Street Now For Sale 182 Clinton Street Now For Sale 3/5/2010 8:58:00 AM

Will there be a drive to buy it like Dr. Bob's
855 Ardmore home?

It is one of the greatest gifts for me to know
that I have purpose beyond myself.

Michael S. Oates
D.O.S. 09-23-1993

- - - -

From: Bent Christensen
<bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>
(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

I'm in for $100 if someone will open this for
the public :-)

Bent Christensen
Valmuevej 17
6000 Kolding
Tlf. 50 12 17 43 Bemærk nyt nummer!

http://www.pass-it-on.dk/

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/StoreBog_studie/

(From GC the moderator: that Yahoo
group is a Danish Big Book study group.
"Store Bog" is Danish for Big Book.)

0 -1 0 0
6385 J. Lobdell
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/5/2010 9:46:00 AM

From Jared L. and Arthur S.

- - - -

> Were the Akron meetings before the move to
> Kings School AA meetings or Oxford Group meetings
> attended by some drying out drunks?
>
> Asked by Jim L. from Columbus, Ohio.

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

As I understand it, the meetings at Henrietta's were OG meetings; those at Bob's
house may be considered AA meetings even when (if) they were officially OG
meetings.

- - - -

From: "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com>
(arthur.s at live.com)

They were both up to October 1939 when meetings moved to Dr Bob's house. Later
due to their size meetings moved to King School in January 1940.

The meetings at T Henry and Clarace Williams home were Oxford Group meetings and
reputedly continued up to 1954.

When the meetings were at the Williams' home, alcoholics and their spouses
usually attended together. After a certain point the alcoholics ("the alcoholic
squad") would go to a separate part of the house and meet together by themselves
and with prospects - this was the origin of closed meetings.

0 -1 0 0
6386 James Bliss
Re: Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member s Eye View Author of AA pamphlet -- A Member s Eye View 3/9/2010 5:47:00 PM

From James Bliss and Edward <elg3_79@yahoo.com>

You can also download these from XA Speakers at:
http://www.xa-speakers.org/

and search for Allen McG

- - - -

Bill Lash wrote:
>
> The author of the pamphlet "A Member's Eye View" is Allen McG. If you would
> like to hear him speak, he used to do this really great Beginners' Workshop.
> A copy of the 5-CD set of one of these Beginners' Workshops he did in
> Brentwood CA in July 1968 can be purchased by going to
> http://www.justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa
> <http://www.justloveaudio.com/audio_store.php?audio=aa> & searching
> under his name. The topics he talks about on this CD set are:
>
> CD #1 - What is the point of my staying sober?
> CD #2 - Is it necessary to have a spiritual experience?
> CD #3 - What are the old ideas and how do you let go of them?
> CD #4 - After the old ideas, then what?
> CD #5 - Recap
>
> Peace.
>
>

0 -1 0 0
6387 Liana
Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 7/4/2010 5:31:00 PM

What could the group tell me about the history
and development of Tradition 10 ?

thanks
Liana

- - - -

From the moderator:

This would mean a discussion of how Bill W.
made use of an account he had read about the
Washingtonian movement -- an account which
some have argued was inaccurate in some of
the things that it said.

But it would also be interesting to look at
the historical development of Bill W's ideas
about the issues involved in the Tenth Tradition,
if this is possible.

But I don't know whether this is in fact possible.

Do we have earlier and later versions of his
ideas about AA taking political stands, and AA
involvement in public controversy?

The transmutation of the Oxford Group into Moral
Re-Armament in 1938, and its greater and greater
involvement in political activism -- on one
occasion (Frank Buchman's statement about
Adolf Hitler) with disastrous consequences --
may also have pointed out to Bill W. the wisdom
of keeping AA out of that kind of thing.

Moral Re-Armament (remember that the old Oxford
Group no longer existed by 1938-39) was
increasingly poking its fingers into every
political and labor controversy it could find.
Although Bill W. TALKED ABOUT the Washingtonians
in his chapter on the Tenth Tradition, it was
surely Moral Re-Armament which he was now
predicting was going to wither away and lose
most of its influence in the world.

And the disputes taking place in American society
during the 1930's, 40's, and 50's were often
bitter and devisive: conservative politicians had
already been claiming that laws forbidding child
labor and giving the vote to women were Communist
/Socialist plots to destroy American democracy.
We had Herbert Hoover vs. Franklin D.
Roosevelt, isolationism vs. getting involved in the
Second World War, and those who favored U.S.
involvement in the Korean war vs. those who
wanted us out of Korea. And then the trial of
Alger Hiss in 1950 and the arrest of Julius and
Ethel Rosenberg in that same year started a Red
scare. Senator Joseph McCarthy began his
anti-Communist witch hunt in February 1950.

This was all right before the 12 Steps and 12
Traditions book was published. NOT a wise time
for a group like AA to get involved in political
controversies of ANY sort, if they could avoid
it.

It should also be noted that the great teachers
of the New Thought movement which had so much
influence on early AA (Emmet Fox's Sermon on the
Mount and James Allen's As a Man Thinketh)
counseled that when we were attacked by somebody
else, the worse thing possible was to respond
with an angry, out-of-control, bitter counter-
attack.

When you were attacked, you should respond by
blessing the other person, praying that they
might find peace and an end to their anger and
so on, and by thinking instead of God and love
and the goodness of the universe. If we think
about controversy and conflict all the time,
we will only find ourselves involved in more
and more controversy and conflict -- that was
the basic teaching of New Thought -- "as a
man thinketh" so shall his life become. It
was an unbreakable law of nature, they said.

So there was a deeper underlying spiritual
principle involved in the Tenth Tradition,
as well as the desire to keep AA out of the
bitterly devisive American political scene
of that period.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
6388 egrott2
You all are co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous You all are co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous 3/10/2010 5:03:00 PM

Somewhere, my mind latched onto the following
quote in an address to AA:

"You are all now the co-founders of Alcoholics
Anonymous..." ...... of the future?

I had remembered it as being a quote from Lois W.
at one of the AA International Conventions but
I can't find it referenced anywhere. I don't
think I made this up but, well, I never know...

Any help in locating the source of this quote
(and the context in which it was said) would be
much apreciated.

0 -1 0 0
6389 Arthur S
RE: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 3/10/2010 10:45:00 PM

Around March/April 1935, Henrietta Sieberling, encouraged by her friend
Delphine Weber, organized a Wednesday-night Oxford Group meeting at the home
of T Henry and Clarace Williams, 676 Palisades Dr in Akron. The meeting was
started specifically to help Dr Bob with his drinking problem. Prior to this
OG meetings were held on Thursday nights at the OG West Hill group (address
unknown to me). There were no meetings at Henrietta Sieberling's gatehouse
home on the Sieberling estate.

When meetings moved to Dr Bob's house in October 1939 it marked the Akron
Group's separation from the OG. Up to this time the meetings at the Williams
home during 1939 may well have been considered both OG and AA meetings due
to the mix of people involved and AA had not as yet evolved the tradition of
non-affiliation. The same would be true of meetings held at Bill W's home on
Clinton St up to around August 1937.

Since the AA Fellowship marks its beginning as June 1935, the meetings held
under the auspices of the OG in Akron and NY were also meetings of the
"alcoholic squads" of both cities which later became the AA Fellowship.
Perhaps, for the question of whether early fellowship meetings were OG meetings
or AA meetings, the most appropriate answer might be "yes." Care should be
exercised to not try to retrofit today's standards of what is or isn't an AA
meeting to the situation that existed in the latter 1930s.

The fellowship of alcoholics (which consisted of only two groups) began
using the name Alcoholics Anonymous well prior to the publication of the Big
Book in April 1939 (its foreword begins with "We, of Alcoholics Anonymous,
are more than one hundred men and women ..." and later states "When writing
or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our Fellowship to
omit his personal name, designating himself instead as "a member of
Alcoholics Anonymous"). When Cleveland separated from Akron and the OG in
May 1939 they identified themselves as Alcoholics Anonymous.

The members in Akron had a tremendous affection for T Henry and Clarace
Williams and their separation from the OG in October 1939 was painful due to
that great affection. I would tend to designate the meetings at Dr Bob's
house as unambiguous AA meetings.

- - - -

THIS IS A RESPONSE AND CONTINUATION OF THE DISCUSSION
in Message 6385 between Arthur S. and Jared L., which
in turn was in answer to the question asked in Message
6372 by Jim L. from Columbus, Ohio:

> Were the Akron meetings before the move to
> Kings School AA meetings or Oxford Group meetings
> attended by some drying out drunks?

- - - -

In that message, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) said:

As I understand it, the meetings at Henrietta's were OG meetings; those at
Bob's house may be considered AA meetings even when (if) they were
officially OG meetings.

- - - -

And "Arthur S" <arthur.s@live.com>
(arthur.s at live.com) said:

They were both up to October 1939 when meetings moved to Dr Bob's house.
Later due to their size meetings moved to King School in January 1940.

The meetings at T Henry and Clarace Williams home were Oxford Group meetings
and reputedly continued up to 1954.

When the meetings were at the Williams' home, alcoholics and their spouses
usually attended together. After a certain point the alcoholics ("the
alcoholic squad") would go to a separate part of the house and meet together
by themselves and with prospects - this was the origin of closed meetings.

0 -1 0 0
6390 pbcliberal
Re: Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 3/10/2010 10:29:00 PM

In the years after Buchman's intemperate remarks, theologians and
philosophers that had helped underpin not-necessarily-religious
spirituality also were taking political positions, most of them liberal.

Reinhold Niebuhr, generally credited with the writing the serenity
prayer, was a prominent leader in the American socialist party. His
contemporaries at Union Theological Seminary included Dietrich
Bonhoeffer who founded an anti-Nazi church and wrote prison epistles on
religion-less Christianity, and was executed by the Nazis for an alleged
attempt to assassinate Hitler.

It probably took tremendous will to resist what were surely great
pressures to apply an army of newly sober alcoholics who now were
seeking higher purpose to address the political ills of the world.

A personal introduction: I have rejoined the fellowship after 18 years
of absence that followed 13 years of sobriety. It is good to be back.

0 -1 0 0
6391 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 3/11/2010 2:45:00 AM

From Laurie Andrews and Tom (tomvlll)

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Remarkable forbearance from Bill, given that
he was a crusty Republican and used to fire off
vitriolic letters to Franklin D. Roosevelt when
he was drunk!

- - - -

From: "Tom" <tomvlll@yahoo.com>
(tomvlll at yahoo.com)

I think another issue which led to the tradition
was the problem raised when Marty Mann put
Bill Wilson's and Dr. Bob's names on her
National Committee on Alcoholism letterhead,
naming them as board members (or advisors?).

0 -1 0 0
6392 Arthur S
RE: Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 3/11/2010 12:21:00 PM

What's wrong with the explanation given by Bill W in AA Comes of Age on the
origin of Tradition Ten (pages 123-128)? It seems unambiguous and to the
point.

Many seeds of the Traditions were spelled out in the Foreword to the First
Edition Big Book in April 1939, among them the statement that "We are not
allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose
anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted."

The Twelve Traditions were defined by Bill W in their long form in an April
1946 Grapevine article ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition"). During
the mid to latter 1940s Bill published a series of explanatory Grapevine
articles on the Traditions that can be found in "The Language of the Heart"
(and which were used for the writing of the 12&12 in 1953 and AA Comes of
Age in 1957). In December 1947, the Grapevine carried a notice that an
important new 48-page pamphlet titled "AA Traditions" was sent to each group
and that enough copies were available for each member to have one free of
charge. It was AA's first piece of literature dedicated totally to the
Traditions. Bill wrote another series of articles on the Traditions in the
early 1950s which pretty much echoed the 1940s articles.

There is no commentary I can find by Bill W regarding or remotely alluding
to the Traditions being influenced by the MRA, conservative politicians, the
2nd World War, Korea, McCarthy, etc. Bill certainly did seek to distance
himself and the fellowship from Frank Buchman after his August 1936 PR
disaster regarding his Hitler comment (which the press reported out of
context and which plagued Buchman for many years). It marked the beginning
of the decline of the OG. The NY Group separated from the OG around August
1937 (Sam Shoemaker separated from the OG/MRA in 1941 and had them vacate
the premises at Calvary House - his dispute with Buchman was amplified in
the press and MRA was losing many adherents).

Bill was inclined to refer to the OG as more of a positive influence on AA
than as a negative one (and there were negative influences). In a July 1949
letter to the Rev Sam Shoemaker, Bill W wrote: "So far as I am concerned,
and Dr Smith too, the Oxford Group seeded AA. It was our spiritual
wellspring at the beginning." Bill later expressed regret that he did not
write to Frank Buchman as well. In AA Comes of Age (pg 29) Bill wrote:
"Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character
defects, restitution for harm done and working with others straight from the
Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in
America, and from nowhere else."

According to Nell Wing, Bill W's political viewpoint was conservative
Republican and he was reputedly very anti-FDR and anti-New-Deal.

AA history trivia and myth item: contrary to popular belief, the short form
of the Traditions were not approved at the 1950 International Convention in
Cleveland. What was approved was quite different than the familiar short
form of the Traditions we know today. Prior to voting on the matter, Bill W
was asked to sum up the Traditions for the convention attendees. In his
summation, Bill paraphrased a variation of the Traditions the text of which
is in the book "The Language of the Heart" (pg 121). Notably missing from
what Bill recited to the attendees were the principles embodied in Tradition
Ten of AA having no opinion on outside issues and not drawing the AA name
into public controversy. Nevertheless, the Traditions as recited by Bill
were approved unanimously by the attendees.

Cheers

Arthur

0 -1 0 0
6393 glennccc
Re: Tenth Tradition Tenth Tradition 3/12/2010 11:02:00 PM

In message #6392 from "Arthur S"
<arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6392

Arthur wrote:

<< What's wrong with the explanation given by Bill W in AA Comes of Age on the
origin of Tradition Ten (pages 123-128)? It seems unambiguous and to the
point.>>

<<There is no commentary I can find by Bill W regarding or remotely alluding to
the Traditions being influenced by the MRA, conservative politicians, the 2nd
World War, Korea, McCarthy, etc.>>

Arthur, on page 123, in the first paragraph of Bill W's explanation of why we
need the Tenth Tradition, which you cited above, Bill W says: "Our fellowship
has never taken sides publicly on any question in this embattled world ....
'Practically never have I heard a heated religious, political, or reform
argument among A.A. members.'"

AA Comes of Age was written to commemorate the great 20th International
Convention in St. Louis in 1955, so in that paragraph Bill W was saying that AA
as such never took sides publicly on any of the great political issues of the 20
year period that ran from 1935 to 1955.

My little comment simply listed (especially for members of the AAHistoryLovers
who live in other parts of the world, and for our younger members too, who
weren't around back then like I was) what the big political issues were which
often divided the U.S. so deeply during the course of those twenty years, the
issues on which (fortunately) AA had "never taken sides publicly."

But then on that same page (page 123), in the second paragraph of Bill W's
explanation of why we need the Tenth Tradition, he was more explicit in
describing these great public political issues:

"In our own times we have seen millions die in political and economic wars often
spurred by religious and racial differences. We live in the imminent possibility
of a fresh holocaust to determine how men shall be governed and how the products
of nature and toil shall be divided among them. That is the spiritual climate in
which A.A. was born ...."

Arthur, just look at the specific words which Bill Wilson used there.

"We have seen millions die in political and economic wars often spurred by
religious and racial differences." Since Bill was talking about the period
between 1935 and 1955, it is clear that he was referring there above all to the
Second World War (1939-1945) and the first holocaust (the killing of six million
Jews by the Nazis).

"We live in the imminent possibility of a fresh holocaust" referred to the
nuclear arms race which began right after the Second World War was over, a race
between (in particular) the U.S. and the Soviet Union to see who could build the
most nuclear weapons. That is what was threatening the world with (this time
around) a nuclear holocaust.

This new threat was being created by a struggle "to determine how men shall be
governed and how the products of nature and toil shall be divided among them."
If we look at the specific words which Bill W. used, it is clear that this meant
the Cold War struggle between Communism and western style democracy.

That's what it was about: Communism had one vision of "how men shall be
governed" and of how the goods produced by farmers and factory workers ("the
products of nature and toil") should be divided up, and capitalism had a very
different theory about how all this should be done.

And this conflict between Communism and capitalism (or however you wish to
describe the two sides) was not only threatening the globe with a third world
war, it was also grievously tearing up the United States internally at that very
time.

Senator Joseph McCarthy began his anti-Communist witch hunt in February 1950.
McCarthy himself headed the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations in
1953 and 1954, and during that time used it for a number of his
Communist-hunting investigations.

McCarthyism attacked not only people whom they regarded as Communists or
Communist sympathizers, but also regarded three other issues as part of the
Communist/Socialist plot to poison, brainwash, and destroy the United States:

(1) polio vaccination,

(2) flouridated water,

(3) and mental health care services (which could of course include alcoholism
treatment centers if they employed psychiatrists and psychotherapists on their
staffs).

Then in 1953, a reaction against McCarthyism began: Arthur Miller produced his
play, "The Crucible," which portrayed McCarthyism as a new version of the Salem
witch trials, and the highly respected broadcast journalist Edward R. Murrow
also began criticizing McCarthyism. By 1954, Murrow was attacking McCarthy
himself as a dishonest fear-monger.

This Cold War struggle that Bill W. was referring to, what he called the
struggle (going on at that time) "to determine how men shall be governed and how
the products of nature and toil shall be divided among them," had also already
erupted into armed conflict. When North Korean forces invaded South Korea on
June 25, 1950, it began the Korean War. When General Dwight Eisenhower became
the Republican candidate for president in 1952, he promised to "go to Korea" to
end the war. With this promise, Eisenhower was able to defeat Adlai Stevenson in
the November elections, and a cease fire ended the major shooting part of the
Korean conflict on 27 July 1953. But when I lived in Dallas, Texas, in the early
1960's, there were still some extreme anti-Communists who were viciously
attacking Eisenhower as a "Communist fellow traveler" because he worked to end
that war.

It was all of this stuff which Bill Wilson was referring to in the first two
paragraphs he wrote in his explanation, in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age
(pages 123-128), as to why AA needed the Tenth Tradition.

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions was published in 1953, and Alcoholics
Anonymous Comes of Age was written in celebration of the 20th International
Convention in St. Louis in 1955, so there was no need for Bill W. to spell all
of these things out for a U.S. audience.

And when they heard Bill W. advising them, there in the 1950's, that AA as an
organization should not get involved in any of these controversies on ANY side,
AA members of that time knew exactly that this was what he meant.

In AA meetings today, in my part of Indiana, I sometimes hear AA members trying
to talk politics before or after the AA meeting, and viciously attacking the
political figures whom they oppose. Fortunately, it is only on rare occasions,
but even a handful of times is too many. This is behavior which is totally out
of bounds for AA people. It doesn't matter in the slightest which side you are
attacking and which side you are defending. If it is allowed to play any part in
AA fellowship, it will end up destroying the AA program.

Bill Wilson was exactly right in what he said on this topic.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
6394 pbcliberal
Gabriel Heatter broadcast, April 25, 1939 Gabriel Heatter broadcast, April 25, 1939 3/15/2010 12:51:00 AM

Do any audio recordings exist of the Gabriel Heatter interview with the
AA member on "We the People?" There are transcripts
<http://www.eskimo.com/%7Eburked/history/heatter.html> available, but I
can't find the actual audio.

Radio broadcasts during that period were usually live, but "electrical
transcriptions" (usually 16 inch disks) were often made for
the use of commercial sponsors, or for rebroadcast for the west coast.

0 -1 0 0
6395 donaldl.mansell
The Great Fact on p. 164 in the Big Book The Great Fact on p. 164 in the Big Book 3/16/2010 11:27:00 AM

The term "the Great Fact" appears on pg. 164 in the Big Book, and seems to refer
to a deity because of the capital letters. I assume Wilson did not create the
term but can find no reference to an original source. Can anyone shed some light
on this?

- - - -

From the moderator:

The passage you are talking about on page 164 reads as follows:

<<See to it that your relationship
with Him is right, and great events will come to pass
for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact
for us.>>

It seems to me that this passage is saying:

"The Great Fact" =
IF your relationship with God is right
THEN great events will happen for you and many people.

The words "great fact" also appear one other place in the first 164 pages of the
Big Book, on p. 25:

<<The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we
have had deep and effective spiritual experiences*
which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward
life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe.
The central fact of our lives today is the absolute cer-
tainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and
lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has
commenced to accomplish those things for us which
we could never do by ourselves.>>

This seems to me to be saying pretty much the same thing:

"The great fact" =
WHEN we had the right spiritual experience of God
THEN God did revolutionary and miraculous things for us which we could never do
by ourselves.

Or in other words, the words "Great Fact" do not seem to me to be referring to
God himself, but to the fact of what God has done for us. That would be my
reading of it.

Bill Wilson, using early twentieth century literary style, sometimes used
capital letters simply to emphasize words, or to indicate that he was pointing
to something very specific (instead of just any old "great fact" among a large
number of important factual statements). It doesn't necessarily mean that he is
referring to God.

So if you look down to the next paragraph, you can see him capitalizing
"Fellowship of the Spirit" and "Road of Happy Destiny." And that's why we still
capitalize the words "Big Book."

In the early twentieth century -- in fact, going all the way back to the
eighteenth century -- good writers of English capitalized words a whole lot more
than authors have been doing over more recent years. I have seen this change
taking place personally, over the course of my own lifetime, because I was born
the same year that the Big Book was published. I don't capitalize as many words
now when I write formal English prose as I did when I was twenty years old. It
just looks old fashioned and awkward when you write like that nowadays.

But other members of the group may have a different reading of this passage.

Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)

0 -1 0 0
6396 Glenn Chesnut
Jack Alexander Jack Alexander 3/17/2010 5:59:00 PM

We have been asked for Jack Alexander's date of birth and for a photograph of
him.
 
Box 459 for February-March 2008
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/en_box459_febmar08.pdf
has a photo of him.

There is also what appears to be a poorer copy of the same photo, cropped down a
bit and (it seems to me) vertically distorted, at
http://www.aa.org.mx/Experiencias.htm
 
Are there any other known photos?
 
That Box 459 article says that "in failing health, Jack Alexander and his wife
Anita retired to Florida, where he died on September 17, 1975," and says that he
was 38 years old when he did the Saturday Evening Post article, so he must have
been born c. 1903.
 
Somewhat puzzlingly, many other places say that Jack Alexander died on September
19, 1975 in St. Louis. Can anyone in our group confirm which date and place is
correct?
 
Thanks!
 
Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
6397 Glenn Chesnut
Milton Maxwell Milton Maxwell 3/18/2010 2:23:00 PM

We have been asked for Milton Maxwell's date of birth. If we can also obtain his
date of death, we might as well post that too.
 
The request referred to him as Milton Maxwell M.D., but in my checking around he
seems to have been a Ph.D., not an M.D.
 
Can anyone in our group verify which of those is correct?
 
Thanks!
 
Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
6398 J. Lobdell
RE: Milton Maxwell (and Jack Alexander) Milton Maxwell (and Jack Alexander) 3/18/2010 8:18:00 PM

From Jared Lobdell and Jim Blair

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

I find in my notes (unattributed I'm sorry to say) that Milton A. Maxwell,
Ph.D., was born August 17 1907 and died October 28 1988.

Btw, Jack Alexander was, I believe, b. February 8 1903, but beyond the fact that
he died in Florida in 1975 (perhaps in September), I have no vital statistics on
him.

Milton Maxwell was a Professor of Sociology and definitely a Ph.D. (University
of Texas, I believe).

- - - -

From: James Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

On the cover of his book, The Alcoholics Anonymous Experience, he gives his name
as Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D.

He was a sociologist.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
6399 Glenn Chesnut
Milton Maxwell Milton Maxwell 3/19/2010 4:35:00 PM

Markings: Your Archives Interchange, Vol. 28, No. 3 (Fall 2008)
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-151_markings_fall08.pdf

A Class A Trustee Whose Research and Writing
Focused on Alcoholism and the A.A. Fellowship

Milton A. Maxwell was elected
to the General Service Board in
1971 and its chairman in 1978.
[WITH PHOTOGRAPH]

Milton A. Maxwell, who served as a Class A (nonalcoholic)
trustee and then chairman of the General Service
Board, traced his interest in A.A. to his time as a minister
when he was approached by a congregant seeking help for a
drinking problem.

Years later, he wrote: "Little did I realize in 1939
when, as Leslie S.'s minister, I suggested Alcoholics
Anonymous to him, that in 1947 I would be a sociologist
doing a Ph.D dissertation on A.A. But such was the case,
and the result is a deep interest in the problem of alcoholism
and particularly in A.A."

The title of that dissertation is "Social Factors in the
Alcoholics Anonymous Program." Maxwell was a sociology
professor at Washington State University when he was
awarded his Ph.D in 1949.

In his dissertation abstract, Maxwell analyses the power of
the A.A. group: "changed social relations are the most effective
means for bringing about personality change--and that
the social interaction in a primary group has the greatest capacity
for bringing about such change."

He wrote or co-wrote 20 articles on the sociological aspects
of alcoholism during his tenure at WSU from 1947 to
1965, and nine while a professor at Rutgers University from
1965 to 1975.

In 1984, he published a full-length book, The AA Experience,
intended for professionals.

Maxwell was elected to the General Service Board of
Alcoholics Anonymous as a Class A (nonalcoholic) trustee
in 1971 and its chairman in 1978. Among the presentations
he gave during his tenure was one on cooperation with non-
A.A. professionals, which he delivered in 1971 at the
Conference: "A.A.'s No. 1 concern should be the quality of
A.A. itself…. This is the most important contribution which
A.A. can make to the total field. Nevertheless, I believe that
A.A. will not have its best future unless it also--and within
the Traditions--continually concerns itself with good twoway
communication with the non-A.A. alcoholism world."

In another presentation, on anonymity, which he gave at
the Conference in 1978, he says: "Originally, being anonymous
was a simple response to the prevailing stigma. It was
aimed at protecting individuals already in the groups and
promised the same protection to anyone thinking about coming
in. Then, from experience, emerged the understanding of
anonymity's spiritual values--for members personally, each
group, and the Fellowship as a whole."

He stepped down from the post in 1982, but continued
to be involved with Alcoholics Anonymous World Services
and A.A. as trustee emeritus. He was 81 years old at his death
in 1988.

The Milton A. Maxwell Collection was donated to the
General Service Office Archives by Charlotte Maxwell about
a year later.

Among that collection is his pamphlet "Alcohol, Man, and
Science," published in 1965 by Washington State University.
In it Maxwell challenges the stereotype of the alcoholic:
"Alcoholism is a progressive illness with a very gradual, frequently
imperceptible, onset…. Many alcoholics are hidden
from recognition by others, and even from themselves, by the
stereotype of late-stage alcoholics--perhaps the Skid
Row type or even the 'Lost Weekend' type. But the
majority of our alcoholics, at a given time, are not
late-stage alcoholics. One study showed that almost 70
percent of the male alcoholic patients at a Seattle private
hospital for alcoholics were married and living with
spouse; 95 percent of them were employed."

In another of his writings--"Hidden Alcoholic
Employees"--Maxwell again took up the case of the alcoholic
who escapes notice: "the alcoholic employee not only
can be a 'hidden man' but usually is. Late-stage alcoholism
which seriously interferes with job performance can seldom
be hidden and is seldom tolerated. But early-stage and even
much of middle-stage alcoholism can be hidden--and most
problem drinkers in industry are in these stages."

In his research, Maxwell investigated the psychology of
the alcoholic. In an article he wrote in 1950 ("Alcohol
Addiction as a Sociogenic Personality Disorder"), he says:
"alcohol effects an illusory adjustment which, in the course
of time, creates new maladjustments, new problems, new
tensions involving family, friends, and job." Also from the
same article: "self-esteem is shaken, guilt and remorse set in,
and alcohol has the capacity of narcotizing this pain ...."

Among Maxwell's works is an article on the Washingtonian
Movement that is familiar to A.A. members. In it Maxwell
compares that temperance society of the 1840s with Alcoholics
Anonymous. Begun in Baltimore in 1841, the Washingtonians
numbered in the tens of thousands (and possibly well over
100,000) within a couple of years. "If there is uncertainty concerning
the number of alcoholics temporarily helped or permanently
rehabilitated ... there is no question that the movement
made a tremendous impact," according to Maxwell.
That impact, though, was relatively brief, with membership
peaking in the mid-1840s and petering out soon thereafter.

In comparing the Washingtonian Movement to A.A.,
Maxwell says that whereas there were obvious similarities,
"the differences can be brought out ... by an analysis of the
Alcoholics Anonymous program--its principles, practices
and content."

The most significant differences, and the reasons that A.A.
has endured and the Washingtonians did not, says Maxwell
in his article: are A.A.'s exclusively alcoholic membership;
its singleness of purpose, which includes steering clear of
"outside issues;" that it provides a program of recovery,
including the Twelve Steps; its principle of anonymity; and
the Traditions.

As it was noted in a workshop of the 1983 General Service
Conference, Maxwell's account of the Washingtonians "revealed
that one cause of its collapse was the ego-stroking that
the movement encouraged" and that "a clear-cut primary
purpose became diffused into a muddle of worthy causes."

In his farewell talk as chairman of the General Service
Board, at the 1982 Conference, Maxwell said: "In a general
society characterized by competitive striving for status, recognition,
power, and their material symbols, A.A. has a recovery
program based upon opposite values--upon learning
and an unself-centered way of life .... Furthermore, A.A. has
a collective life--Traditions, Concepts, minimum of structure--
that is remarkably in harmony with and supportive of
the basic recovery program."

Soon after Maxwell had been elected Board chairman, Dr.
Jack Norris, who served as a trustee on the Board from 1951
to 1978, had this to say about the new chairman: "I believe
Milton Maxwell is too little appreciated in A.A., because he
is so quiet. But because of his understanding heart, I think
Milton may be A.A.'s greatest nonalcoholic friend in the field
of alcoholism."

0 -1 0 0
6401 Charlie C
Milton Maxwell Milton Maxwell 3/20/2010 5:14:00 PM

Here's that info again Glenn:

I dug around a little, and seeing that Milton Maxwell had been a
sociology prof at Washington State in Pullman for many years looked in
some standard sources, no luck, but then contacted their library and
received the following information from a fellow librarian there. (Most
college archives, usually in their libraries, keep some sort of faculty
bio file...)

"Milton Andrew Maxwell. Born August 12, 1907 in Beecher Illinois.
Attended high school in Rowena, Texas. Parents Daniel and Bertha, father
was a "Minister, Evangelical and Reformed Church." Wife (at time of
this 1947 paperwork, anyway) was Charlotte Catherine Maxwell. Two
children (again, as of 1947), Douglas and Ross.

Degrees were: A.B. in 1929 from Elmhurst (ILL) College, B.D. in 1931
from Chicago Theological Seminary, M.A. in 1944 from University of
Texas. Left to come to WSU with his PhD unfinished, but notes say he
finished it through U of Texas in 1949. His wife, by the way, received
a B.S. in Chemistry in 1933 from the Florida State College for Women.

Held the following positions before WSU:
Social Research Assistant, 1930-1931, Chicago Congregational Union
Minister, 1931-1934, 1st Congregational Church, Ault, Colo.
Minister, 1934-1940, Community Church, Flossmoor, Ill.
Minister, 1940-1945, University Community Church, Austin, Tex.
Part-time instructor in Sociology, 1943-1945, University of Texas

Hired at WSU (well, then WSC, as we only became WSU in 1959) in 1945,
remained here until 1965 at which point he resigned to take another
position. He had some short periods away - resigned in 1960 to "take
another position" and returned one year later. Was on sabbatical and
then unpaid personal leave in 1957-1958 at Yale Univ. Center of Alcohol
Studies."

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

"A flittin stane gaithers nae fog"

0 -1 0 0
6402 Jim Myers
Re: Milton Maxwell Milton Maxwell 3/19/2010 9:41:00 PM

On silkworth.net is the following:

The Washingtonian Movement: Comparison With Alcoholics Anonymous

QUART. J. STUD. ALC., VOL. 11, 410-452, 1950.
By Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Sociology, State College of
Washington, Pullman, Washington

(From Jim M of silkworth.net - Please note above: By Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D.)

COMPARISON WITH ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

It is apparent that the Washingtonian societies, when they were most effective
in the rehabilitation of alcoholics, had a great many similarities to Alcoholics
Anonymous. These similarities might be listed as follows:
1. Alcoholics helping each other.
2. The needs and interests of alcoholics kept central, despite mixed membership,
by predominance of numbers, control, or the enthusiasm of the movement.
3. Weekly meetings.
4. The sharing of experiences.
5. The fellowship of the group or its members constantly available.
6. A reliance upon the power of God.
7. Total abstinence from alcohol.
Most Washingtonian groups probably failed to meet this ideal program, or to
maintain it for long. Even in itemizing the ideal program, some of the
differences between the Washingtonian groups and Alcoholics Anonymous stand out.

The admission of nonalcoholics as members and the incorporation of the
"temperance" purpose - the inducement of total abstinence in nonalcoholics - are
the most striking differences. Furthermore, at their best, the Washingtonian
groups possessed no understanding of alcoholism other than the possibility of
recovery through love and sympathy. Their approach to the problem of alcoholism
and alcohol was moralistic rather than psychological or therapeutic. They
possessed no program for personality change. The group had no resource of ideas
to help them rise above the ideational content locally possessed. Except for
their program of mutual aid they had no pattern of organization or activity
different from existing patterns. There was far too great a reliance upon the
pledge, and not enough appreciation of other elements in their program. Work
with other alcoholics was not required, nor was the therapeutic value of this
work explicitly recognized. There was no anonymity to keep the public from
becoming aware of broken pledges, or to keep individuals from exploiting the
movement for prestige and fame. Finally, there was not enough understanding of
their own therapeutic program to formulate it and thus help the new groups to
establish themselves on a sound and somewhat uniform basis.

The differences can be brought out more clearly by a more detailed, comparative
analysis of the Alcoholics Anonymous program - its principles, practices and
content.

1. Exclusively alcoholic membership.- There are many therapeutic values in the
cohesiveness and solidarity which a group with a common problem can achieve. But
in the light of the Washingtonian experience, the greatest long-run value of an
exclusively alcoholic membership is that it permits and reinforces exclusive
attention to the rehabilitation of alcoholics.

2. Singleness of purpose. - As stated in the masthead of an organizational
publication (23), Alcoholics Anonymous "is not allied with any sect,
denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in
any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is
to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

Nothing can divide groups more quickly - and certainly destroy the therapeutic
atmosphere effectively - than religious and political controversy. Strong
efforts were made in the Washingtonian movement to minimize sectarian,
theological and political differences, but the movement did not avoid attracting
to itself the hostile emotions generated by these conflicts. Even if it had been
more successful in this regard, it was still caught in all the controversy to
which the temperance cause had become liable. Not only that, but within the
temperance movement itself it eventually became stranded on the issue of moral
suasion versus legal action.

In the light of this experience, the position of Alcoholics Anonymous stands in
decided and hopeful contrast. In refusing to endorse or oppose causes, and
particularly the temperance cause, A.A. is avoiding the greatest handicap which
the Washingtonian movement had. Some temperance leaders may deplore that A.A.
does not give them support, but they have no grounds for complaining that they
are being opposed or hampered by A.A.

The A.A. program also contains a happy formula for avoiding the religious or
theological controversies which could easily develop even within the groups as
presently constituted. This is the use of the term "Power" (greater or higher),
and particularly the phrase "as we understood Him," in referring to this Power,
or God. The tolerance which this phrase has supported is an invaluable asset.

A further value of this single-minded concentration on the rehabilitation of
alcoholics is made obvious by the Washingtonian experience. Whenever, and as
long as, the Washingtonians were working hard at the reclamation of drunkards,
they had notable success and the movement thrived and grew. This would support
the idea that active outreach to other alcoholics is a factor in therapeutic
success and, at the same time, a necessary condition for growth - and even for
survival. Entirely aside from the matter of controversy, then, this singleness
of A.A. purpose is a condition of continued therapeutic success and survival.

3. An adequate, clear-cut program of recovery. - Another great asset of
Alcoholics Anonymous is the ideology which forms the content and context of its
program of recovery, and which has received clear and attractive expression in
the book Alcoholics Anonymous (24) and in other A.A. literature. This ideology
incorporates the much sounder understanding of alcoholism which has been
developed in recent years. It is a pragmatic blend of that which scientific
research, dynamic psychology and mature religion have to offer; and through the
literature of the movement, the members are kept sympathetically oriented to the
developments in these fields.

Accordingly, instead of viewing alcoholism with a moralistic eye on alcohol - as
an evil which ought to be abandoned - A.A. sees alcoholism as an illness,
symptomatic of a personality disorder. Its program is designed to get at the
basic problem, that is, to bring about a change in personality.

This program is simply and clearly stated in the Twelve Steps - augmented by the
"24 hour program" of abstaining from alcohol, and the supporting slogans and
emphases such as "First things first," "Live and let live," "Easy does it,"
"Keep an open mind," honesty, humility, and so forth. Great stress is also put
upon regular attendance at the group meetings, which are characterized by the
informal exchange of experiences and ideas and by a genuinely satisfying
fellowship.

Compared to the Washingtonian brand, the A.A. sharing of experiences is notably
enriched by the psychological insights which have been brought into the group by
A.A. literature and outside speakers. A thorough analysis and catharsis is
specifically asked for in the Twelve Steps - as well as an improvement in
relations to other persons. Work with other alcoholics is required, and the
therapeutic value accruing to the sponsor of new members is distinctly
recognized. The spiritual part of the program is more clearly and inclusively
defined; more soundly based, and more frankly made an indispensable condition of
recovery.

It appears, furthermore, that the A.A. group activity is more satisfactory to
the alcoholic than was the case in many Washingtonian societies. A.A. members
seem to find all the satisfaction and values in their groups that the founders
of the various orders thought were lacking in the Washingtonian groups.

A decided Washingtonian weakness was its general lack of follow-through. In
contrast, A.A. is particularly strong on this point, providing a potent
follow-through in a group setting where self-analysis and catharsis are
stimulated; where new attitudes toward alcohol, self and others are learned;
where the feeling tones are modified through a new quality of relationships;
where, in short, a new way of life is acquired - one which not only enables the
person to interact with his environment (particularly with other persons)
without the use of alcohol, but enables him to do so on a more mature,
satisfying basis.

No doubt a similar change occurred in many (though probably not in most) of the
alcoholic Washingtonians, but it was more by a coincidence, within and without
the societies, of circumstances that were rarely understood and never formulated
into a definite, repeatable program. A.A. is infinitely better equipped in this
respect.

4. Anonymity. - A comparison with the Washingtonian experience underscores the
sheer survival value of the principle of anonymity in Alcoholics Anonymous. At
the height of his popularity, John B. Gough either "slipped" or was tricked by
his enemies into a drunken relapse. At any rate, the opponents of the
Washingtonian movement seized upon this lapse with glee and made the most of it
to hurt Gough and the movement. This must have happened frequently to less
widely known but nevertheless publicly known Washingtonians. Public confidence
in the movement was impaired. Anonymity protects the reputation of A.A. from
public criticism not only of "slips" but also of failures, internal tensions,
and all deviant behaviour.

Equally important, anonymity keeps the groups from exploiting prominent names
for the sake of group prestige; and it keeps individual members from exploiting
their A.A. connection for personal prestige or fame. This encourages humility
and the placing of principles above personalities. Such behaviour not only
generates outside admiration of A.A. but has therapeutic value for the
individual members. There are further therapeutic values in anonymity: it makes
it easier for alcoholics to approach A.A., and it relaxes the new member. It
encourages honest catharsis and utter frankness. It protects the new member from
the critical eyes of certain acquaintances while he experiments with this new
way of life, for fumbling and failure will be hidden.

5. Hazard-avoiding traditions. - Another decisive contrast to the Washingtonian
movement is the development in Alcoholics Anonymous not only of a relatively
uniform program of recovery but also of relatively uniform traditions for
avoiding the usual hazards to which organizations are subject.

In Alcoholics Anonymous there is actually no overhead authority. Wherever two or
three alcoholics get together to attain sobriety on the general basis of the
Twelve Step program they may call themselves an A.A. group. They are free to
conduct their activities as they see fit. As would be expected in a fellowship
of independent groups, all kinds of practices and policies have been tried. A
careful reading of the A.A. publication, A.A. Tradition (25), will reveal how
great the variety has been, here and there. Membership has been limited. Conduct
of groups has been undemocratic. Leaders have exploited the groups for personal
prestige. The principle of anonymity has been violated. Personal and
jurisdictional rivalries have developed. Money, property and organizational
difficulties have disrupted A.A. groups. Members and groups, yielding to their
own enthusiasms and reflecting the patterns of other institutions around them,
have endangered the immediate and ultimate welfare of the A.A. fellowship.
These deviations could have been serious had there not existed a considerable
uniformity in practice and principle.

In the early days of A.A., the entire fellowship was bound together by a chain
of personal relationships - all created on the basis of a common program, a
common spirit and a common tradition. This spirit and this pragmatically
achieved program and tradition were the only guiding principles, and relative
uniformity was not difficult. Alcoholics Anonymous was just a fellowship -
small, informal, poor and unpretentious. But with growth, prosperity and
prestige, the difficulties of getting all groups and members to see the value of
these guiding principles increased. A self-conscious statement and explanation
was needed - and this finally emerged in 1947 and 1948 in the "Twelve Points of
Tradition," elaborated upon in editorials in The A.A. Grapevine (23) and
subsequently published as a booklet (25).

In formulating and stating the reasons for these traditions, Bill W., one of the
founders, has continued the extremely valuable function which he, Dr. Bob and
other national leaders have performed - that of keeping intact the experienced
based program and principles of A.A. Perhaps as important as any other is the
tradition of keeping authority in principles rather than letting it become
vested in offices and personalities. This tradition is supported by the related
principle of rotating leadership, and the concept that leaders are merely the
trusted servants of the group or groups. The hazard-avoiding values of these
traditions are obvious.

The tradition that membership be open to any alcoholic has value in countering
the tendency toward exclusiveness, class-consciousness, cliquishness - and it
helps to keep the groups focused on their main job of helping the "alcoholic who
still suffers."

The tradition of complete self-support of A.A. groups and activities by the
voluntary contributions of A.A. members avoids the dangers inherent in fixed
dues, assessments, public solicitations, and the like - and it is conducive to
self-reliance and self-respect. Furthermore, in minimizing money it maximizes
fellowship.

The tradition that "any considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be
separately incorporated and managed" is important in keeping the A.A. groups
from becoming entangled in the problems of property beyond the minimum necessary
for their own functioning. The tradition of "the least possible organization"
has a similar value. These last three traditions might be summed up as
precautions against the common tendency to forget that money, property and
organization are only means - and that means find their rightful place only when
the end is kept clearly in view. For A.A., these traditions should help to keep
the groups concentrated on their prime purpose: helping alcoholics recover.

The existence of these traditions - and their clear formulation - are assets
which the Washingtonian movement never possessed.

What prognosis for Alcoholics Anonymous is suggested by this comparison with the
Washingtonian movement?

The least that can be said is that the short life of the Washingtonian movement
simply has no parallel implications for A.A. Despite certain but limited
similarities in origins, purpose and early activities, the differences are too
great to draw the conclusion of a similar fate for A.A.

Are the differences, then, of such a nature as to assure a long life for
Alcoholics Anonymous? This much can be said with assurance of consensus: (A) In
the light of our present-day knowledge, A.A. has a sounder program of recovery
than the Washingtonians achieved. (B) A.A. has avoided many of the
organizational hazards which plagued the Washingtonian societies. The success
and growth of A.A. during more than a decade of public life, its present vigour
and its present unity underscore these statements and augur well for the future.

In the writer's judgment, based on a systematic study (26) of A.A., there is no
inherent reason why A.A. should not enjoy an indefinitely continued existence.
How long an existence will depend upon how well the leaders and members continue
to follow the present program and principles - that is, how actively A.A.
members will continue to reach out to other alcoholics; how thoroughly the
remainder of the A.A. program will continue to be practiced, particularly the
steps dealing with catharsis and the spiritual aspects; and, how closely all
groups will be guided by the present traditions.

Finally, the writer would suggest that the value in the traditions lies chiefly
in the avoidance of factors that can easily interfere with keeping the ideal
therapeutic atmosphere found in the small A.A. groups at their best. Most of the
personality change necessary for recovery from alcoholism occurs in these small
groups - and that work is at its very best when there is a genuinely warm,
nonegocentric fellowship. How well this quality of fellowship is maintained in
the small, local groups is offered, therefore, as another condition determining
how bright the future of A.A. will be.

Whatever the worth of these judgments, they point up the potential value to A.A.
of careful, objective research on these and related conditions. This would give
Alcoholics Anonymous another asset that the Washingtonians never had.


Yours in service,
Jim M,
http://www.silkworth.net/

0 -1 0 0
6403 Stephen
Did Bill Wilson and Eddie Rickenbacker ever meet? Did Bill Wilson and Eddie Rickenbacker ever meet? 3/19/2010 6:56:00 PM

I am researching whether or not Eddie Rickenbacker
and Bill Wilson ever met one another during the
course of their lives -- during Bill's training at
Plattsburg, New York, or in France during WW I, or
maybe after AA was founded?

Any information, or suggestions as to where I
could look?

Thank you. Steve A.

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

See http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4476

Eddie Rickenbacker story in the 12&12 (Tradition One, page 131)

"Countless times, in as many cities and
hamlets, we reenacted the story of Eddie
Rickenbacker and his courageous company when
their plane crashed in the Pacific. Like us,
they had suddenly found themselves saved from
death, but still floating upon a perilous
sea. How well they saw that their common
welfare came first. None might become selfish
of water or bread. Each needed to consider
the others, and in abiding faith they knew
they must find their real strength. And this
they did find, in measure to transcend all
the defects of their frail craft, every test
of uncertainty, pain, fear, and despair, and
even the death of one."

Bill Wilson also referred to the Eddie Rickenbacker story on a couple of other
occasions, see:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/27

"Our numbers are considerable. We have size. There is great security in numbers.
You can't imagine how it was in the very first two or three years of this thing
when nobody was sure that anybody could stay sober...Then we were like the
people on Eddie Rickenbacker's raft. Boy, anybody rock that raft, even a little,
and he was sure to be clobbered, that's all, and then thrown overboard. But
today it's a different story."

"Along with greater security in numbers, there has come a certain amount of
liability. The more people there are to do a job, it often turns out, the less
there are. In other words, what is everybody's business is nobody's business. So
size is bound to bring complacency unless we get increasingly aware of what's
going on."

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/57
and http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1695

"I remember very well when this committee started (January 1944) It brought me
in contact with our great friends at Yale, the courageous Dr. Haggard, the
incredible Dr. Jellinek or 'Bunky' as we affectionately know him and Seldon
[Bacon] and all those dedicated people."

"The question arose, could an AA member get into education or research or what
not? Then ensued a fresh and great controversy in AA which was not surprising
because you must remember that in this period we were like people on
Rickenbacker's raft. Who would dare ever rock us ever so little and precipitate
us back in the alcohol sea."

0 -1 0 0
6404 diazeztone
Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics 3/23/2010 4:04:00 PM

Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics
by Frances Larry Brisbane, Maxine Womble.

I found this while researching books and articles
written by Milton Maxwell.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DA7SmDh-X5cC&d

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com

summary page for milton maxwell
www.aabibliography.com/milton_a_maxwell.html

0 -1 0 0
6405 JoeA
H. P. Lovecraft H. P. Lovecraft 3/24/2010 11:51:00 AM

I was wondering if anyone knew if Bill Wilson and HP Lovecraft had ever
encountered each other. The Wilsons were at 182 Clinton Street, and H. P.
Lovecraft rented rooms at 169 Clinton Street.

- - - -

169 Clinton Street, Brooklyn, New York. "Something unwholesome -- something
furtive -- something vast lying subterrenely in obnoxious slumber -- that was
the soul of 169 Clinton St. at the edge of Red Hook, and in my great northwest
room 'The Horror at Red Hook' was written."
--HPL in a letter to Bernard Austin Dwyer, March 26, 1927

0 -1 0 0
6406 nuevenueve@ymail.com
Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism 3/24/2010 8:23:00 PM

Hello Group:

Do you know whether there are, anywhere in the world, some libraries with
specialized holdings on alcoholism, AA material, other recovery programs,
addictions and all related items?

Maybe some of the pharmaceutical companies, but libraries where the general
public can have access to the books.

Thank you.

0 -1 0 0
6407 rriley9945@aol.com
Re: Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics 3/24/2010 9:01:00 PM

Frances Brisbane was for the longest time the head of the Social Work program at
SUNY Stony Brook.

- - - -

Original Message from: diazeztone <eztone@hotmail.com>

Interesting book: Treatment of Black Alcoholics
by Frances Larry Brisbane, Maxine Womble.

I found this while researching books and articles
written by Milton Maxwell.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DA7SmDh-X5cC&d

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com

0 -1 0 0
6408 J. Lobdell
RE: H. P. Lovecraft H. P. Lovecraft 3/24/2010 9:21:00 PM

I can't swear to it, but my recollection is that Lovecraft left Brooklyn Heights
ca 1927, before Bill and Lois were there. It is of course possible they met
when HPL visited Samuel Loveman around New Year's Eve 1933 (HPL's only time back
while Bill was there?), but unless Bill frequented Dauber & Pine's Bookshop on
lower 5th Ave (which I doubt), there's no reason he would have known Loveman.
And HPL was pretty much a teetotaller, besides being a Roosevelt supporter --
not fertile ground for a meeting. But I don't know for sure.

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: joeadams1950@gmail.com
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew if Bill Wilson and HP Lovecraft had ever
encountered each other. The Wilsons were at 182 Clinton Street, and H. P.
Lovecraft rented rooms at 169 Clinton Street.
>

0 -1 0 0
6409 Glenn Chesnut
The outlaw safe cracker The outlaw safe cracker 3/24/2010 10:20:00 PM

Harriet D. has asked us about a line on page 62 in the Big book, in the chapter
on How It Works.
 
This line refers to: "the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged
him."
 
Do any of our experts on early twentieth century U.S. history or literature or
the lives of famous outlaws recognize that as a reference to any specific person
or group of people who would have been well known to the average American in
1939?
 
Did Willie Sutton ever engage in safecracking, or did he just hold a Thompson
submachine gun or a pistol on the tellers and demand the money in their cash
drawers? And had he become well known enough by 1939, that the general public
would have recognized his name?

0 -1 0 0
6410 Glenn Chesnut
Modern A.A. Recovery Rates Modern A.A. Recovery Rates 3/27/2010 1:59:00 PM

From: Harriet Dodd <harriet.dodd@ymail.com> (harriet.dodd at ymail.com)
 
Do we have any idea on AA recovery rates nowadays?
______________________________
 
From the moderator G.C.
 
Yes, the New York A.A. office carried out Triennial Membership Surveys during
the period 1977 through 1989, which show that, of those people who are in their
first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will still be attending A.A.
meetings at the end of that year.
 
Also, of those who are in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e.,
those who have completed their initial ninety days, and have thereby
demonstrated a certain willingness to really try the program), 56% will still be
attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year.
 
For more details, see: "Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Recovery Outcome Rates:
Contemporary Myth and Misinterpretation" (January 1, 2008), by Arthur S.
(Arlington, Texas), Tom E. (Wappingers Falls, New York), and Glenn C. (South
Bend, Indiana).
 
as Adobe Acrobat PDF file http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf
 
or as an MS Word DOC file http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

0 -1 0 0
6411 Glenn Chesnut
The Big Book and the World''s Best Sellers The Big Book and the World''s Best Sellers 3/27/2010 2:01:00 PM

From: Harriet Dodd <harriet.dodd@ymail.com> (harriet.dodd at ymail.com)
 
How many copies of the Big Book (editions 1-4 in total) have been published to
date?
 
How many copies of the 4th edition have been printed and sold since its
appearance in 2001?
 
How does this compare with the total number of copies that have been sold of the
Bible and similar types of worldwide books?
______________________________
 
From the moderator G.C., see the list of best-selling books at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books
 
The Bible has been around for centuries and centuries. It is estimated that
anywhere from 2.5 billion to more than 6 billion copies have been produced.
 
There have only been two other books up in that league:

It is estimated that 800 million copies of the Koran have been produced since it
was written fourteen centuries ago.
It is estimated that 800 million to 900 million copies of Mao Zedong's Little
Red Book (Quotations from Chairman Mao) were actually bought (although 6.5
billion copies were printed, two thirds of them, roughly, are still sitting on
shelves unsold).

Some other interesting books which are up there in the major leagues are:

Charles Dickens, "A Tale of Two Cities"
J. R. R. Tolkien, "The Lord of the Rings"
H. Rider Haggard, "She"
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "Le Petit Prince" (The Little Prince)
Dan Brown, "The Da Vinci Code"
Beatrix Potter, "The Tale of Peter Rabbit"
Leo Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
Louise Hay, "You Can Heal Your Life" (a modern New Thought book, a bit like the
A.A. classics Emmet Fox's "Sermon on the Mount" and James Allen, "As a Man
Thinketh")

This internet article says that 30 million copies of the Alcoholics Anonymous
Big Book have been sold.

This puts it in the same league with:

Harper Lee, "To Kill a Mockingbird"
Jacqueline Susann, "Valley of the Dolls"
Margaret Mitchell, "Gone with the Wind"
Anne Frank, "The Diary of Anne Frank"
Collenn McCullough, "The Thorn Birds"

It should be noted that Sigmund Freud, Albert Einstein, Plato, Aristotle, and
St. Augustine don't make it onto this list of best sellers at all. The moral we
can draw from this list, is that the importance and influence of a book often
has no correlation to the number of copies that were sold.

0 -1 0 0
6412 elephant_7
Re: The outlaw safe cracker The outlaw safe cracker 3/25/2010 10:58:00 AM

From James R., rriley9945, james.scarpine, and
Ben Humphreys

- - - -

The "outlaw safe cracker" is one in a series of references: the "retired
business man," the "sighing minister," the "politicians and reformers," the
"outlaw safe cracker," and finally "the alcoholic." It seems most likely to me
that each of these references points not to a specific historical figure but to
an accepted "type" that would have been recognizable to the common reader of the
time.

Rather than looking for a specific outlaw safe cracker who might be the referent
of this quote, I'd be inclined to look to popular media representations of
criminals who feel that society has wronged them prior to 1939. There are
probably many newspaper stories, films, and radio programs that feature this
character type.

-James R.

- - - -

From: rriley9945@aol.com
(rriley9945 at aol.com)

There is a famous fictional safecracker, Jimmy Valentine, as the central
character in the famous O. Henry story "A Retrieved Reformation." This is a
fairly well known story and would have been also known back in 1938/1939.

- - - -

From the moderator G.C.

O. Henry (William Sydney Porter, born 1862, became an alcoholic, died 1910 of
cirrhosis of the liver, complications of diabetes and an enlarged heart).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._Henry

His short story "A Retrieved Reformation" <<... tells the tale of safecracker
Jimmy Valentine, recently freed from prison. He goes to a town bank to check it
over before he robs it. As he walks to the door, he catches the eye of the
banker's beautiful daughter. They immediately fall in love and Valentine decides
to give up his criminal career. He moves into the town, taking up the identity
of Ralph Spencer, a shoemaker. Just as he is about to leave to deliver his
specialized tools to an old associate, a lawman who recognizes him arrives at
the bank. Jimmy and his fiancée and her family are at the bank, inspecting a new
safe, when a child accidentally gets locked inside the airtight vault. Knowing
it will seal his fate, Valentine opens the safe to rescue the child. However,
the lawman lets him go.>>

http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1891/

- - - -

From: "planternva2000" <james.scarpine@verizon.net>
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)

WILLIE SUTTON:

http://www.banking.com/aba/profile_0397.htm

"Though he was to gain his fame as a bank robber, his first experience in
unauthorized withdrawals from banks and jewelry stores was learned at the knee
of a crook named 'Doc' Tate, an expert safecracker. In time, Sutton went on his
own with another partner, still cracking safes with all the traditional burglar
tools of his day plus a few of his own invention."

"Sutton's technique, with its variations, was used to take roughly 100 banks
over a career spanning from the late 1920s to Sutton's final arrest in
1952--with a number of prison terms in between."

See also:
http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/sutton/sutton.htm

It's probably safe to say he was well known in 1938.

If Sutton was Bill's 'outlaw safecracker' who were the 'retired business man,
the minister, the politicians and reformers' mentioned in the same paragraph?

- - - -

From: "Ben Humphreys" <blhump272@sctv.coop>
(blhump272 at sctv.coop)

I was born in 1937 and I knew of Willie Sutton well during my childhood. I
particularly remember his famous saying I rob banks because that is where the
money is. Ben H.

- - - -

Original question from Harriet D., who asked about a line on page 62 in the Big
book, in the chapter on How It Works.
>  
> This line refers to: "the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged
him."
>  
> Do any of our experts on early twentieth century U.S. history or literature or
the lives of famous outlaws recognize that as a reference to any specific person
or group of people who would have been well known to the average American in
1939?
>  
> Did Willie Sutton ever engage in safecracking, or did he just hold a Thompson
submachine gun or a pistol on the tellers and demand the money in their cash
drawers? And had he become well known enough by 1939, that the general public
would have recognized his name?

0 -1 0 0
6413 J. Lobdell
RE: Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism 3/25/2010 7:38:00 AM

From Jared Lobdell and Dick Chalue

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

BROWN UNIVERSITY:

Start with the Kirk (and John Hay Library) and Center for Alcohol and Addiction
Studies collections at Brown, parts of them online.

UNIVERSITY OF STIRLING (SCOTLAND):

The University of Stirling (Scotland) has a good practical library and data
base.

RUTGERS UNIVERSITY:

Rutgers has a good collection.

OTHER GOOD PLACES TO LOOK:

The Alcohol & Drug History Society and the Kettil Bruun Society (both with
listservs online) and Loran Archer's Alcohol Reports website might be able to
provide information.

- - - -

From: Dick Chalue <dickchalue@yahoo.com>
(dickchalue at yahoo.com)

THE G.S.O. ARCHIVES AT A.A. NEW YORK HEADQUARTERS
has certain kinds of items, such as copies of Bill
W's correspondence and official AA correspondence
with members and groups.

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=21

- - - -

The original question from <nuevenueve@ymail.com>
(nuevenueve at ymail.com)

Do you know whether there are, anywhere in the world, some libraries with
specialized holdings on alcoholism, AA material, other recovery programs,
addictions and all related items?

Maybe some of the pharmaceutical companies, but libraries where the general
public can have access to the books.

0 -1 0 0
6414 Charlie C
re: Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism Libraries with major holdings on alcoholism 3/26/2010 9:27:00 AM

One simple and freely available way to see what libraries have is to use
http://www.worldcat.org/. This is the free public version of a shared cataloging
database long used by public, academic and other libraries. You can do searches
and narrow down to libraries in your zip code region etc.

Most libraries are open to the public, but it is always a good idea to call
first re access and hours - the worldcat service above gives contact info. Some
college libraries allow borrowing of books by community users, generally by
purchasing some sort of courtesy user card, fees vary - we charge $25 a year
where I am.

You can also get books from other libraries through inter-library loan - use the
worldcat record info to make your request thru your local public library.
Depending on the library, they may charge a small fee for each request.


Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

"A flittin stane gaithers nae fog"

0 -1 0 0
6415 Fiona Dodd
Group Avoids Politics of Alcohol Group Avoids Politics of Alcohol 3/26/2010 1:52:00 AM

"Group Avoids Politics of Alcohol," by STEVEN CARROLL

AN ABILITY to avoid the politics surrounding alcohol consumption and a
leadership structure described as "benign anarchy" are two of the reasons
why Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) has thrived since it arrived here over 70
years ago, according to the author of a new book on the group.

Trinity College Dublin academic Shane Butler said the AA's "inverted
pyramid" style of governance has helped it to avoid many of the pitfalls
that political and religious institutions have encountered since it was
established here in 1946.

"They don't get distracted by institutions," he said. "What they have done
is kept their eye on the ball from a point of view of following its only
purpose - to help people who are absolutely flattened by alcohol
consumption.

"It survived through a policy of never getting involved in alcohol politics
. . . they don't contribute to debate or try to tell you whether or not the
pubs in Limerick should be open on Good Friday or anything like that."

While researching the book, Benign Anarchy - Alcoholics Anonymous in
Ireland, Mr Butler said he learned that the concept of alcoholism was little
known when returning Irish-American Conor Flynn moved here to help establish
a branch of the AA in 1946.

"He was told by the public that there were no alcoholics in the Free State
and that you might have found some if you'd gone up to the North."

Mr Butler said the AA, which has no direct leadership but simply follows a
spiritual 12-step programme, seemed destined to collapse. "It's a bit like
comparing it to the Fenians in 19th-century Ireland or modern-day organised
crime," he said.

"It looks like it couldn't survive as there's no leadership or top-level
telling local cumanns what to do, but it has worked and proved itself
extremely robust."

At the launch of the book last night, Diarmaid Ferriter, professor of modern
Irish history at UCD, said the AA intersected health and religion and was
one of few things to arrive here between the 1940s and 1960s that was not
challenged by then archbishop of Dublin, Dr John Charles McQuaid.

0 -1 0 0
6416 Glenn Chesnut
When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25 When Love Is Not Enough, premier Irvington NY, April 25 4/5/2010 9:53:00 PM

From: "Stepping Stones, the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson" 
<info@steppingstones.org> (info at steppingstones.org)
 
"When Love Is Not Enough: The Lois Wilson Story"
 
Irvington Town Hall Theater
85 Main Street
Irvington, New York 10533
 
Special showing with the author Bill Borchert as our guest. Question and answer
with the author, archival exhibit, refreshments.

The program begins at 8 p.m., Sunday, April 25, 2010; the video begins at 9 p.m.
 
Free admission, no reservation needed, but seating is limited, so get there
early.

Drive or take Metro-North Railroad to Irvington (on the east bank of the Hudson
River, north of the Bronx and Yonkers).

For more information, go to http://www.steppingstones.org or call (914)
232-4822.
______________________________________
 
OR WATCH IT AT HOME
 
Hallmark Hall of Fame
WHEN LOVE IS NOT ENOUGH
Winona ryder and Barry Pepper
CBS Television
Sunday, April 25, 2010
9:00 p.m. Eastern time
8:00 p.m. Central time
 
The video "is based on the true story of the tested but enduring bond between
Bill and Lois Wilson, respective co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon
Family Groups.
 
In 1914, Lois Burnham, a young woman from an affluent family, fell in love with
Bill Wilson, a young man of modest means.  They married in 1918, and after his
return from war, they set out to build a life together.

While Lois worked, Bill struggled to find his niche.  She believed he was
destined for greatness, and despite his increasing reliance on alcohol, she
showered him with love and support.  After brief periods of success, Bill's
addiction to alcohol spiraled out of control until his job, their lifestyle and
their dreams were gone.
 
In late 1934, after years of covering for Bill and trying to manage his illness
by herself, Lois witnessed Bill get and stay sober - not because of her but with
the support of fellow alcoholics.
 
As Bill attained lasting sobriety and co-founded AA, Lois was surprised to feel
neglected, isolated and resentful.  She was not alone in these feelings.  There
were many - wives, husbands, sisters, brothers - whose lives and relationships
had been devastated because of their loved ones' alcoholism.  With them she
began to apply the principles of AA to her own emotional recovery and co-founded
Al-Anon Family Groups in 1951.
 
Together Lois and Bill Wilson nurtured movements that have helped millions of
people around the world. And together they've given the world a noble and
inspiring love story."

0 -1 0 0
6417 ckbudnick
1970 copy of This Is AA pamphlet 1970 copy of This Is AA pamphlet 4/4/2010 8:12:00 PM

Has the pamphlet "This Is AA" changed between
it first being published in 1970 and now? Does
anyone know where a copy of the 1970 pamphlet
can be viewed?

Thanks,

Chris
Raleigh, NC

0 -1 0 0
6418 Craig Keith
Dr. Bob on Anonymity Dr. Bob on Anonymity 4/3/2010 9:08:00 PM

Is this in fact anything that Dr. Bob actually
wrote or spoke, in these exact words? Or is this
somebody else trying to put their own words into
Dr. Bob's mouth?

I've searched the group message archives trying
to find some valid historical source where it
is attributed to Dr. Bob, but without success:
____________________________________

"Since our Tradition on anonymity designates the exact level where the line
should be held, it must be obvious to everyone who can read and understand the
English language that to maintain anonymity at any other level is definitely a
violation of the Tradition.

The AA who hides his identity from his fellow AA by using only a given name
violates the Tradition just as much as the AA who permits his name to appear in
the press in connection with matters pertaining to AA.

The former is maintaining his anonymity above the level of press, radio, and
films, and the latter is maintaining his anonymity below the level of press,
radio, and films-whereas the Tradition states that we should maintain our
anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films."
____________________________________

If Dr. Bob actually DID say this, in these exact
words, can someone give the historical source?

With gratitude,
Craig Keith
Wimberley, Texas

0 -1 0 0
6419 priscilla_semmens
Article by Bill W. or Dr. Bob on corrections? Article by Bill W. or Dr. Bob on corrections? 4/2/2010 9:18:00 AM

Did Bill W. or Dr. Bob ever write an article
about carrying the A.A. message to corrections
facilities? (Prisons, jails, penitentiaries,
detention facilities, etc.)

Thanks for your help

0 -1 0 0
6420 jim.alhandy
Modern A.A. success rate Modern A.A. success rate 4/1/2010 1:37:00 AM

Dear A.A. History Lovers, my name is Jim Alhandy
and I have been a sober member of A.A. since
1-2-90. I know I am supposed to stop fighting
anything or anyone, but this one has me ready
to go to the mountain. It is a question that
has the hair on the back of my neck standing on
edge.

Three times in two days, I heard at three different
meetings, that there is literature out of New York
that states only "2 or 3% of the people that come
to A.A. stay sober."

I read A.A. literature and do not believe this
is in print in any A.A. literature anywhere. The
Big Book says in the forward, on page xx, that
"of Alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried,
50% got sober at once," and as you know it says
on page 58, "Rarely have we seen a person fail
who has thoroughly followed our path...."

To me the key words are "and really tried" and
"thoroughly followed". I have definitions of my
own for those two terms.

I truly believe with all my heart, that it is my
job, as a sober member of A.A., to give the new
members of A.A. hope, PERIOD.

Please tell me that there is nothing in print
from A.A. that says only "2 or 3% stay sober".
I disagreed and contradicted by saying, "The
Big Book is correct. It is correct today as it
was correct when it was printed. If anything,
it was underestimated. It has been my experience
that 85 or 90% of people that "really tried"
stay sober.

I love A.A. Please help me. Please respond to
<jimalhandy@gmail.com> (jimalhandy at gmail.com).

Thank You,
Jim Alhandy
See you in Texas

0 -1 0 0
6421 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Modern A.A. success rate Modern A.A. success rate 4/5/2010 11:08:00 PM

Jim,

You are certainly correct. There is absolutely no literature coming from the New
York GSO stating that only "2 or 3% of the people that come to A.A. stay sober."

If you want further verification, phone New York and ask them for yourself:

A.A. General Services Board, 475 Riverside Dr Ste 832, New York, NY.
Phone 212-870-3400

And you might write their phone number down on a piece of paper, and hand it to
anybody you run into who is repeating that kind of nonsense. Because as you say,
it that false statement were true, it would cut the heart out of AA's promise of
freedom from slavery to alcohol.

- - - -

There are actually two questions here.

(1) What percentage of the people who go to two or three AA meetings end up
staying with the program, and gaining long term sobriety?

The official New York A.A. figures were assembled in a series of Triennial
Surveys, made every three years, and published by New York.

See Message 6410, which was posted up just a little over a week ago:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6410

You can read the article to which it refers as an Adobe Acrobat file:
http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.pdf
or as an MS Word file: http://hindsfoot.org/recout01.doc

These A.A. Triennial Membership Surveys for 1977 through 1989 show that, of
those people who are in their first month of attending A.A. meetings, 26% will
still be attending A.A. meetings at the end of that year. And of those who are
in their fourth month of attending A.A. meetings (i.e., those who have completed
their initial ninety days, and have thereby demonstrated a certain willingness
to really try the program), 56% will still be attending A.A. meetings at the end
of that year.

According to the really old timers in my part of the U.S. -- I have asked a
large number of them this question, and they universally agree -- THE PEOPLE WHO
GO BACK OUT AND DRINK are, 90% to 95% of the time, the people WHO QUIT ATTENDING
MEETINGS and quit trying to work the program.

If you have severe diabetes, then the combination of insulin injections and
watching your diet will do a lot of good, but if you quit the insulin shots and
start pigging out on chocolate cake again, you will get very ill -- not because
modern medicine "does not work," but because you stopped following the doctors'
recommendations.

It's time to quit blaming A.A. if people go to a few meetings, pay no attention
to what is said, put out no effort, and then disappear and go back to drinking
again.

If you take three or four violin lessons, refuse to practice the violin at home,
and then quit going to your lessons, then not even the greatest violin teacher
in the world can teach you how to play the violin successfully. Let's get
serious here!

- - - -

(2) What percentage of people who FAITHFULLY KEEP ON ATTENDING A.A. MEETINGS and
who GENUINELY WORK THE STEPS will end up gaining long term sobriety?

As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own experience --
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Even
people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending
meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long term
sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over the
years.

(Although I can remember two hard core cases from my home group, one who took
fifteen years and a term in the state penitentiary, and the other who took
twenty years, before they started taking the program seriously. But please,
anybody who is reading this, it is NOT necessary for YOU to do it the way they
did it!!!)

Just keep coming back, and it will work. As the good old timers put it, YOU
NEVER FAIL TILL YOU STOP TRYING.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
6422 Henry Cox
Who is Mr. T in the Keys to the Kingdom? Who is Mr. T in the Keys to the Kingdom? 4/5/2010 10:19:00 PM

Who is Mr. T in this story at the back of the
Big Book, "The Keys to the Kingdom"?

- - - -

From GC the moderator:

"The Keys to the Kingdom," on pp. 268 ff. in the fourth edition of the Big Book,
is the story of Sylvia Kauffmann. She got sober on September 13, 1939.

For more about Sylvia K., see Nancy Olson's short biographies of the people who
wrote the stories at the end of the Big Book:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm

On page 273 Sylvia refers to "a visit from Mr. T., a recovered alcoholic."

This was Earl Treat (whose story is "He Sold Himself Short," on pp. 258
ff. in the 4th edit. of the Big Book). He was the one who founded A.A. in
Chicago.

For an interesting photograph of Earl Treat, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound1.html
(Earl is standing between Dr. Bob and Barry Collins, who worked with Ed Webster
on printing and distributing the Little Red Book.)

There is another photograph of Earl by himself at:
http://hindsfoot.org/mnfound2.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
6423 john wikelius
P 48 AA Pamphlet P 48 AA Pamphlet 4/5/2010 11:29:00 PM

AA periodically surveys its members.  This pamphlet is titled:

A.A. Membership Survey

It has a lot of interesting data.  Can be purchased from GSO.

John Wikelius
Enterprise, Alabama

0 -1 0 0
6424 ginnymatthew
The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript 3/30/2010 5:11:00 PM

THE STORY OF THE WRITING OF THE BIG BOOK

I recently heard that one of the earliest drafts
of the Big Book was 400 or so pages long.

How many different versions of these (longer)
early drafts of the Big Book do we know about?

How many of these earlier versions still survive,
and where can copies of them be found?

Even if copies of some of these drafts no longer
exist, can we know anything about what they might
have contained?

Who cut them down and shortened them? Bill W.,
or someone else?

There is a big difference between 400 or more
pages, and the present 164 pages.

Ginny M.

0 -1 0 0
6425 Mike
An addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism An addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism 3/31/2010 7:42:00 PM

In the 12 & 12, in the chapter on the 3rd Tradition
(pp. 141-142) a potential new member confides to
the group that he was "the victim of another
addiction even worse stigmatized than alcoholism."

He's finally allowed to join. Does anyone know
what that stigma was??

Thanks, Mike

- - - -

From GC the moderator: This question gets asked periodically, so it's probably
not a bad idea to re-post the answer.

See AAHistoryLovers Message 1973, from Arthur Sheehan:

"WORSE STIGMATIZED":
In the year 1937: On the AA calendar of "year two" the spirit of Tradition 3
emerged. A member asked to be admitted who frankly described himself to the
"oldest" member as "the victim of another addiction even worse stigmatized than
alcoholism." The "addiction" was "sex deviate."** Guidance came from Dr Bob (the
oldest member in Akron, OH) asking, "What would the Master do?" The member was
admitted and plunged into 12th Step work. (DBGO 240-241 12&12 141-142) Note:
this story is often erroneously intermingled with an incident that occurred 8
years later in 1945 at the 41st St clubhouse in NYC. (PIO 318).

**Information on this revelation was provided by David S from an audiotape of
Bill W at an open meeting of the 1968 General Service Conference. See also the
pamphlet The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. (Publication number P-53, pg
30).

THE BLONDE TRANSVESTITE (a totally different person):
In the year 1945: Bill W was called by Barry L (who would later author Living
Sober) from the 41st St clubhouse. Bill persuaded the group to take in a black
man who was an ex-convict with bleach-blond hair, wearing women's clothing and
makeup. The man also admitted to being a "dope fiend." When asked what to do
about it, Bill posed the question, "did you say he was a drunk?" When answered,
"yes" Bill replied, "well I think that's all we can ask." The man was reported
to have disappeared shortly after. (BW-FH 8, PIO 317-318) Anecdotal accounts
erroneously say that this individual went on to become one of the best 12th
Steppers in NY. This story is often erroneously intermingled with that of a 1937
incident ("year two" on the AA calendar) involving an Akron member that is
discussed in the Tradition Three essay in the 12&12 (pgs 141-142).

0 -1 0 0
6426 Robert Stonebraker
The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript The long early drafts of the Big Book manuscript 4/6/2010 1:02:00 AM

THE STORY OF THE WRITING OF THE BIG BOOK

Ginny and all,

An excerpt from the original "Bill's Story" can be downloaded at
http://www.4dgroups.org/ -- click "Downloads," then "Documents," and scroll down
to "Bill's Original Story." This is 36 pages:

http://www.4dgroups.org/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=26&func=startdown\
&id=8


Interestingly, "Bill's Story" was titled Chapter 2 at that time, while "There Is
a Solution" was tagged as Chapter 1. From my information, these two chapters
were started in the Spring of 1938, and the next thing written -- "The Doctors
Opinion" -- was produced in July of that year.

However, I cannot remember exactly from what source I learned this
information.

I can send interested parties a PDF file of this writing.

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
6427 Karen Reynolds
Dr. Bob on Anonymity Dr. Bob on Anonymity 4/6/2010 1:12:00 AM

Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265. It
indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February 1969
Grapevine article.

0 -1 0 0
6428 M.J. Johnson
Re: Dr. Bob on Anonymity Dr. Bob on Anonymity 4/6/2010 7:06:00 AM

According to the Grapevine Digital Archive http://www.aagrapevine.org/da/ the
title of the article is "Dr. Bob on Tradition Eleven" (Vol. 25 No. 9).

It doesn't contain anything more of a quote other than what was included in the
original question here.

- - - -

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:12 AM, Karen Reynolds <karenr110198@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Doctor Bob and the Good Oldtimers talks about this on pages 264 and 265. It
> indicates that D.S. of San Mateo, California quoted Dr. Bob in a February
> 1969 Grapevine article.
>
>

0 -1 0 0
6429 allan_gengler
Re: Modern A.A. success rate Modern A.A. success rate 4/6/2010 9:43:00 AM

From Allan Gengler, John Moore, and Baileygc23

- - - -

From: "allan_gengler" <agengler@wk.net> (agengler at wk.net)

AA does do a survey periodically and you can find the latest here:

http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?origpage=75&product=65

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-48_07survey.pdf

- - - -

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 2007 MEMBERSHIP SURVEY
(conference approved literature)

LENGTH OF SOBRIETY
33% sober more than 10 years
12% sober between 5-10 years
24% sober between 1-5 years
31% sober less than 1 year

MEETING ATTENDANCE
Members attend an average of 2.4 meetings per week

AGES OF MEMBERS
2.3% under age 21
11.3% age 21 through 30
16.5% age 31 through 40
28.5% age 41 through 50
23.8% age 51 through 60
12.3% age 31 through 70
5.3% over 70

HOW MEMBERS WERE FIRST INTRODUCED TO A.A.
(two reponses were permitted)
33% through an A.A. member
33% treatment facility
31% self-motivated
24% family
11% court order
8% counseling agency
7% health professional
4% employer or fellow worker
3% non-A.A. friend or neighbor
3% correctional facility
2% Al-Anon or Alateen member
2% A.A. literature
1% newspaper/magazine/radio/TV
1% member of clergy
1% internet
7% other

- - - -

From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com> (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)

First editions of BB (except the first printings) had a chapter near the indexes
entitled "Now We Are Thousands." This chapter was dropped, I believe, when the
second edition was introduced. It states:

"It had been satisfactorily demonstrated that at least two out of three
alcoholics who wished to get well could apparently do so, notwithstanding the
fact that their chance of recovery upon any other medical or spiritual basis had
been almost nil -- a small percentage at best."

View online at http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/391.html

GB
John M.
South Burlington VT 05403

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

I am seventy nine, and I have seen a lot of people disappear from AA. I have
gone to funerals for those who died by using again. I just keep going, and try
to stay sober somehow.

0 -1 0 0
6430 BILL MCINTIRE
Re: Modern AA success rate Modern AA success rate 4/6/2010 12:29:00 PM

From Bill McIntire, James Scarpine, and Glenn Chesnut

ON THE IMPORTANCE (OR UNIMPORTANCE) OF ATTENDING
A.A. MEETINGS IN EARLY ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

- - - -

MEETINGS ALONE WON'T DO IT

From: Bill McIntire <maxbott@yahoo.com>
(maxbott at yahoo.com)

I agree!! I have seen NO info that supports those people's statement that "only
2 or 3% of the people that come to A.A. stay sober." Along with good info there
is a lot of bogus stuff as well. I am sure you are already aware of this.

I have met countless people who went to countless meetings and never gained much
continuous clean time and many of those who did manage to stay dry were just
that: dry.

5 yrs to 35 yrs.

However, I have met only a very small handful of people over the last 23 yrs who
had truthfully gone thru the steps, that went back out, and I have yet to meet
ANYBODY who is current with themselves and has a current experience with the
steps who has gone back out -- ever!!!

Which proves to me a couple of things: (1) meetings alone cannot keep me sober.
If that were so then "B" at the end of How it Works ("that probably no human
power could have relieved our alcoholism") would be a lie!

And (2) I am still here despite myself, NOT because of myself. Not because of
how many meetings I go to, how popular I am, not how many men I am sponsoring,
not how well I know or think I know the Book, and certainly not by how well I
can spew a lot of "AA" stuff!

While I do believe in the supportive power in meetings, there is NOTHING in my
experience that supports the message I have heard over the last 15 to 20 yrs,
that meetings keep you sober! And to my knowledge, nowhere in our literature
does it say that.

However, living by these principles, no matter how many meetings I may go to or
not make it to, is still a foolproof way to stay sober!
Enuf of my preaching!!! Bill

- - - -

THE ONLY MENTION OF MEETINGS is on pages 159-160 in the Big Book, which says
ONLY ONE MEETING A WEEK IS NECESSARY

From: "planternva2000" <james.scarpine@verizon.net>
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)

Please tell me I misunderstood your post:

As the Big Book says -- and as actual observation shows, in my own experience --
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path." Even
people who have slips -- IF they come back to the tables and start attending
meetings again and working the program again -- will eventually gain long term
sobriety and die sober, at least 98% of the time, in my own observation over the
years.

While my own exposure to the first edition Big Book has bee entirely on line,
and I no longer have my copies of the second edition, I still have my third and
fourth. For the life of me I can find no sentence stating "Here are the steps we
took and the meetings we attended, which are suggested as a program of
recovery."

The only mention of meetings I can find is on page 159: "In addition to these
casual get-togethers (note the word 'casual'), it became customary to set apart
one night a week for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested
in a spiritual way of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime
object was to provide a time and place where new people (note 'new people')
might bring their problems.

Today there several hundred AA members, Loners, Homers and Internationalists,
registered with GSO who do not have access to meetings. At different times in my
own early sobriety I was a Loner and later an Internationalist, with meetings
few and far between.

The gentleman whose story is on page 310 of "Experience, Strength & Hope" was
sober three years and three months without ever having attended a single
meeting.

Jim S.

- - - -

WHAT THE BIG BOOK ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT MEETINGS
on pp. 159-160

From Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

"A year and six months later these three had succeeded with seven more. Seeing
much of each other, scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not shelter
a little gathering of men and women, happy in their release, and constantly
thinking how they might present their discovery to some newcomer. In addition
to these casual get-togethers, it became customary to set apart one night a week
for a meeting to be attended by anyone or everyone interested in a spiritual way
of life. Aside from fellowship and sociability, the prime object was to provide
a time and place where new people might bring their problems."

"Outsiders became interested. One man and his wife placed their large home at
the disposal of this strangely assorted crowd. This couple has since become so
fascinated that they have dedicated their home to the word. Many a distracted
wife has visited this house to find loving and understanding companionship among
women who knew her problem, to hear from the lips of their husbands what had
happened to them, to be advised how her own wayward mate might be hospitalized
and approached when next he stumbled."

It's talking about early Akron AA. Read Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers to see
more details about what this paragraph was actually describing. Also read the
whole first paragraph, including "scarce an evening passed that someone's home
did not shelter a little gathering of men and women."

Most of the early Akron people showed up at Dr. Bob and Anne's house EVERY DAY
-- either in the morning, when they sat around while Anne read from the Upper
Room (or sometimes a relevant Bible verse) and then discussed the topic raised
in that meditational reading -- or in the evening, when they likewise sat around
and discussed how the program was working in their lives, and the spiritual
problems that they were having to deal with in their life in the world.

One way or another, they stayed in constant daily contact with other A.A.
people.

The "one meeting a week" was the Oxford Group style meeting at the home of T.
Henry and Clarace Williams. This couple were not alcoholics themselves, and
spouses also came to this meeting.

So what the Big Book was describing on pp. 159-160 -- early Akron A.A. --
actually consisted of SEVEN MEETINGS A WEEK:

(1) ONE BIG MEETING A WEEK, which was what we would today call an "open
meeting," with non-alcoholics also present, at T. Henry and Clarace Williams'
house.

(2) A SMALLER MEETING on each of the other six days of the week, held either in
the morning before work, or in the evening, at Dr. Bob and Anne's house. This
kind of meeting was what we would today call a "discussion meeting" or a "topic
meeting."

0 -1 0 0
6431 handlebarick
Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner! Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner! 4/6/2010 8:59:00 AM

Mel B. (Toledo, Ohio) and Tom D. (Lima, Ohio)
will be present to answer questions on

Sunday, May 2, 2010 at the
"Gratitude for our Sobriety" dinner
in Wapakoneta, Ohio

Both men obtained the gift of sobriety in
April 1950, and have 60 years of sobriety each.

This event will be held at the First English Lutheran Church, on 107 W. Mechanic
St. in Wapakoneta, Ohio.

Wapakoneta is located in western Ohio, about 25 miles from the Indiana border,
just off Interstate 75 halfway between Toledo and Dayton, where the interstate
crosses U.S. Highway 33.

Fellowship begins at 2:00 pm
Covered dish dinner at 3:00 pm
Ask-It-Basket session with Mel B. and Tom D. at 4:00 pm

Rick Swaney 4-01-1987
Wapakoneta, Ohio
______________________________

MEL B. WAS THE PRINCIPAL AUTHOR OF PASS IT ON,
THE CONFERENCE-PUBLISHED BIOGRAPHY OF BILL W.

http://www.walkindryplaces.com/

He is also the author of:

**New Wine: The Spiritual roots of the Twelve Step Miracle (1991)
**Ebby: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W. (1998)
**My Search for Bill W. (2000)
**Walk in Dry Places (1996)

And the author (along with Bill P.) of:

**The 7 Key Principles of Successful Recovery (1999)

0 -1 0 0
6432 Charlie C
Upper Room Upper Room 4/7/2010 7:23:00 PM

Although I don't use it so much these days, I still enjoy the Upper Room
devotional, and looking at one recently in a Methodist church where I attend a
meeting I noticed that this is their 75th year, the same as AA!

It can help to understand the popularity of the Upper Room in early AA to know
that such daily devotionals are not that many in number, and this is one of the
earliest and longest running. The Daily GuidePost, a similar title, was not
started until 1977 for example. The Methodist church too was then, as it is now,
quite large, and very widespread geographically, so undoubtedly many meetings
were housed in Methodist churches, thus perhaps giving some exposure to the
Upper Room, copies of which are often set out for the taking.

Following is a history of the Upper Room from their website.

"The Upper Room began as a daily devotional guide, which remains at the heart of
its ministry. During the 1930s, a group of women in San Antonio, Texas discerned
through prayer that families needed a time of worship and Bible study to sustain
them through the stress of the economic depression. They asked their church for
a devotional guide -- a request that inspired the Board of Missions of the
Methodist Episcopal Church, South, to "publish a quarterly devotional booklet to
be sold in the local church."

Dr. Grover Carlton Emmons, the first editor of the guide, determined the
one-page meditation format and decided that the devotions would be written by
various Christians, both lay and clergy, from around the world. The final
decision, the name of the guide, came to him as he heard a speaker describe the
outpouring of spiritual power among Jesus' disciples gathered in an upper room
on the day of Pentecost. He quickly telegraphed those who were typesetting the
first issue, and in April 1935, the first issue of The Upper Room daily
devotional guide rolled off the presses.

In the decades since the guide was "prayed into existence," The Upper Room has
grown into a global ministry and touched millions of lives. The Upper Room
continues to expand in response to the spiritual needs of persons and
communities of faith."

Charlie C.
IM = route20guy

0 -1 0 0
6433 Kimball ROWE
Re: Modern AA success rate Modern AA success rate 4/8/2010 4:29:00 PM

THE 75% / 25% RULE-OF-THUMB STILL WORKS TODAY,
FOR ALL WHO CAME TO A.A. AND "REALLY TRIED"

Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and
remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder,
those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. (Foreword to the Second
Edition, pg xx)

We posed the same question to our home group with the stipulation that they had
to "Really Try." How many got sober at once, how many sobered up after some
relapses, and what happened to the remainder. Our criteria for "Really Tried"
is as follows:

1. Did you thoroughly follow the path?
2. Did you completely give yourself to this simple program?
3. Did you grasp and develop a manner of living that demands rigorous honesty?
4. Did you have the capacity to be honest?
5. Did you have the willingness to go to any length?
6. Did you take certain steps?
7. Were you fearless and thorough from the very start?
8. Did you let go of your old ideas absolutely?
9. Did you find a Power greater than yourself?
10. Did you ask this Higher Power for help?
11. Did you take the steps?
12. Were you willing to grow along spiritual lines?

For each person that really tried (a yes response to the above questions) in our
home group, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after
some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed
improvement. For my home group, the numbers haven't changed since 1939.

That said, the Foreword to the Second Edition continues, "Other thousands came
to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But
great numbers of these about two out of three began to return as time passed."

I can only presume that these "thousands" are the people who didn't try. They
were not counted with those that tried. They are sometimes referred to as the
"passing parade" or "visitors" but rarely take the time to become members.

Kim

0 -1 0 0
6434 M.J. Johnson
Re: Upper Room Upper Room 4/9/2010 5:03:00 PM

I'm very interested in finding archived issues of The Upper Room from the 30's
and 40's - ideally electronically... does anyone know where I might find them?

Many thanks in advance.

0 -1 0 0
6435 planternva2000
Re: Modern AA Success Rate Modern AA Success Rate 4/8/2010 9:46:00 AM

From James Scarpine, Tim T., and Glenn C.

- - - -

From: "planternva2000" <james.scarpine@verizon.net>
(james.scarpine at verizon.net)

You say that this passage in the Big Book on pages 159-160 is

"talking about early Akron AA. Read Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers to see more
details about what this paragraph was actually describing. Also read the whole
first paragraph, including 'scarce an evening passed that someone's home did not
shelter a little gathering of men and women.'"

Is it truly talking about early AA? Or is it talking about the Akron Oxford
Group? "A year and six months later....." has to mean during the time when the
alcoholics were O.G. members, since the split didn't take place till later. It's
reasonable to assume that those early members needed frequent contact with one
another because there was no "AA program of recovery" available. Yes, they had
the O. G. `six step' program, but as we see from different examples in our
literature, there were several different versions of those. If meetings were so
vital in those early days I'm sure Bill would have made the point in the Big
Book. Instead he stressed the importance of the 12 Steps. His comments about the
frequent gatherings in members' homes is mentioned in passing, an example of the
alcoholic's different social activities.

- - - -

From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com)

The claim was made that "THE ONLY MENTION OF MEETINGS is on pages 159-160 in the
Big Book, which says ONLY ONE MEETING A WEEK IS NECESSARY."

If you go to pagers 159-160, you'll find that the above quote is not what it
says at all. The word "necessary" is never mentioned. In fact, the context of
this section suggests that lots of homes had meetings lots of nights and that
these folks saw a lot of one another.

It's very distressing when people take quotes out of context and "spin" them to
mean something else, for whatever reason, or to support whatever agenda. Over
the last several years there have been individuals who belong to groups that
hold themselves out to be better than the rest of us. These individuals
frequently use this "straw man" argument, whereby they set up this false choice:
"Meetings alone" vs. doing it their way.

Obviously, in the experience of most sober, long-term AA members, a home group,
a sponsor, working the steps, surrendering to some kind of spiritual
open-mindedness, reading the literature, trying to carry the message to other
suffering alkies - ALL these things together produce the highest quality of life
for the recovered alcholic. Having "sects" of AA that claim they are better
than the rest of us; the "sects" using their own literature; the "sects"
interpreting the Big Book in idiosyncratic ways; it strikes me that this only
divides our fellowship and unnecessarily complicates what is a fairly
straightforward process.

Tim T.

- - - -

From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

THIS IS THE KIND OF EARLY AKRON A.A.
which was being referred to on pp. 159-160 of the Big Book.

J. D. Holmes (A.A. No. 10) describes the Wednesday night Open Meeting (as we
would call it today) at the home of T. Henry and Clarace Williams, where
non-alcoholics also took part in the discussions.

He ALSO describes the daily visits either to Dr. Bob's office or to Dr. Bob's
home, where the door was never locked, and groups of recovering alcoholics could
be found there literally every hour of the day or night.

It was not a get-together-once-a-week program, but a program in which people got
together seven days a week.

http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html
J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in Indiana
Evansville, April 23, 1940
______________________________

Based on a talk given by Glenn C. (South Bend) at the archives workshop held at
the Courthouse Annex in Peru, Indiana on March 25, 2000, assembled from his
notes and Frank Nyikos’ transcription of the tape recordings which Frank made of
the speakers.

James D. "J. D." Holmes got sober in Akron, Ohio in September 1936, where he was
A.A. No. 10. After the newspaper J. D. worked for in Akron was sold, he moved to
Evansville, Indiana, on May 30, 1938, and got a job selling advertising for a
newspaper there. He started the first A.A. meeting in Indiana in Evansville on
April 23, 1940.Around 1951, J. D. returned to Akron, where he was a writer for
the Akron Beacon-Journal. He died at his home in Akron at the age of 66 on
Saturday, May 27, 1961, with 24 years of sobriety.
______________________________

There's a lot of stuff about J. D. in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, the
official A.A. history of those early Akron years when A.A. was first beginning
.... J. D. was one of the few early A.A. members who were not hospitalized first
.... But in J.D.'s case, they decided he didn't need that kind of
hospitalization, so they just invited him to attend the regular Wednesday
evening meeting of the "alcoholic squad" (as it was later jokingly referred to)
at the home of Oxford Groupers T. Henry and Clarace Williams.

"I met seven other men there who had a drinking problem," J. D. said, "together
with Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson. They all told me their stories, and I decided
there might be hope for me." They conducted it a little bit like they used to do
when they gave you the third degree at a police station -- you know, the bright
light shining in your eyes, everything except beating you with a rubber hose --
the old timers weren't kidding around when they did a twelfth step on you!

During this period, J. D. recalled, he saw Dr. Bob every day of the week, either
at his office or in his home.

"I was over there four or five times a week in the daytime, and then I'd wind up
there at night. I've gone to their home on a morning, opened it up, and gone
in," J. D. said. "No one up. I'd just go ahead and start the pot of coffee
going. Somebody would holler out, 'Who's down there?' -- thinking maybe it would
be a drunk who had stayed overnight. Anne never knew who would be on her
davenport when she got up in the morning."

The early A.A.'s in Akron [stuck together constantly]. This was somewhere around
early 1938 by now.

J. D. told how "Ernie's mother used to throw a party every two weeks during this
period. She'd make the doughnuts, and though everybody was broke, we all brought
something. It was nothing unusual to see 25 or 30 people over there drinking
coffee and eating doughnuts."

"I've been at those parties when there were calls from Cleveland from people who
wanted to come down," he said. "Two men would hop in a car, go to Cleveland, and
bring the man down to Akron."

0 -1 0 0
6436 James Bliss
Re: Modern AA success rate Modern AA success rate 4/7/2010 7:38:00 PM

From Jim Bliss, Steven Calderbank, Dave G., and Bill McIntire

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)

First Sentence, Chapter 7, "Working with Others," Big Book page 89:

/Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from
drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities
fail./

These statements directly show that we do not get sober and stay that way
without continued work. Work with another alcoholic, at least my reading from
the Big Book, is working the steps with them. Note the term 'with'. This does
not mean that they alone are working the steps but that I also am working the
steps over and over when I work with
other alcoholics.

I agree, going to meetings does not keep me sober, although it may keep me dry
(which my wife and family do not want to see). For me to stay sober I must
continue to work the program, and this is best done by working with another
alcoholic, through the steps.

I have seen people who claim to have worked the steps go back out, and perhaps
they have worked the steps. But they have not 'practiced these principles in all
of our affairs' which, in my reading, is continuing to work the steps. They also
have not continued to (or at all) work with other alcoholics.

As Bill says in the 12 and 12 in his discussion of step six, '/Only Step One,
where we made the 100 percent admission we were powerless over alcohol, can be
practiced with absolute perfection./' The plain reading of this is that I am
supposed to continue to 'practice' the steps. In my opinion, I need to continue
to work them, striving for perfection, although I know that I will not be able
to achieve perfection in any of them but the first.

Jim

- - - -

From: steven.calderbank@verizon.net
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

No offense Bill, but when you said: "However, I have met only a very small
handful of people over the last 23 yrs who had truthfully gone thru the steps,
that went back out, and I have yet to meet ANYBODY who is current with
themselves and has a current experience with the steps who has gone back out --
ever!!!"

How do you quantify such a statement? It was said with such authority, but I
fail to see where such a statement makes much sense. I know that the program of
AA works for me 100% of the time that I use it. I have a 100% success rate. That
is the only one I can honestly quantify.

And even if the only mention of meetings in the Big Book is the one on pages
159-160, it is also true that the Big Book doesn't use the word sponsor in the
first 164 pages. But I am sure most folks would not suggest doing without one.

- - - -

From: David G. <doci333@hotmail.com>
(doci333 at hotmail.com)

Hi Jim and Everyone,

I wrestled with that 2%-3% in my head to.

Years back (~15yrs), I asked an oldtimer about those percentages, and he passed
on to me that he had read that; 3-5% of all Americans were possibly alcoholic.
He added that with our alcoholic minds we probably just skewed those percentages
over to the Program Of AA because we like the pain and love to live in the
disaster mode.

It was enough to quiet the beast in my head.

My side of the street shows that I have a 100% success rate.

The "Oldtimer" is the only documentation that I have. Thanks to all for paving
the way.

AA Love and Hugs,

Dave G.
Illinois

- - - -
From: BILL MCINTIRE <maxbott@yahoo.com>
(maxbott at yahoo.com)

This is really great information!!! Brings up some points I havn't considered
and still follows closely to what I always felt. Meetings are very important!
They provide a vital aid to recovery. I think most people's chances improve with
close and constant support and helps us to (hopefully) grow in our sobriety but
is not what keeps us sober. While early Akron was still in the forming stages of
a fellowship there was scarce anybody (support) available. I do not take
anything away from the importance of meetings with exception to some peoples
belief that that is how one stays sober. A message stressing more importance in
meetings as a way to stay sober and much less stressing of the message and the
steps and the necessity of a continuously growing spiritual experience to stay
sober is, I believe dangerous to our fellowship.

The list of facts this group has sent me I believe supports that fear I think
perhaps I am getting a little off base from the topic of history though. For
that I apologize. Occasionally I can fall off on personal experience and my
history rather than learning more of "our" history of AA

Godspeed, Bill

0 -1 0 0
6437 Edward
Re: Modern A.A. success rate Modern A.A. success rate 4/8/2010 9:01:00 PM

From Ted G. and Jim M.

- - - -

From: Ted G. <elg3_79@yahoo.com>
(elg3_79 at yahoo.com)

Dear ones,

Recently I have been delving into the literature which might be charitably
called the counterpoint to ours .. Jack Trimpey's "The Small Book", Stanton
Peele's "The Diseasing of America", Marianne Gilliam's "How Alcoholics Anonymous
Failed Me", "The Alcoholism and Addiction Cure" by Chris Prentiss and a couple
of others.

All contain some variant of the claim that only 3-6% of people who come to A.A.
get sober, which they further claim is identical to the rate of people who
simply stop drinking with no outside help when they've had enough. I believe
this commonly repeated "statistic" (amongst people who have a vested interest in
discrediting A.A.) to be the source of the rumors heard in meeting rooms.

I highly recommend to all A.A. members with brains like mine (the kind that
won't shut off) to read at least the first three books I listed, as their
insight into what to avoid saying or doing as a responsible A.A. member is
invaluable.

The authors' objections to A.A. are generally not against what is actually in
the literature, but against what one hears in rooms nowadays, and when one
examines the "alternative" programs of action they present, there are striking
similarities to the early A.A. way of doing things .... Which I am sure would
cause them great resentment if it were pointed out to them.

Y'all's in service,

Ted G.

- - - -

From: Jim M <silkworthdotnet@yahoo.com>
(silkworthdotnet at yahoo.com)

Numbers don't lie. You can see them for yourself, that which Allen G. presented
to you below - then compare them

to the early years of AA statistics when long term sobriety success rates were
much, much higher.

When I lived in Columbia, SC, I had a sponsor who would sit down with me and the
Big Book and we would study

every word, sentence, paragraph and chapter and discuss its historical
significance and value. He was and lived like

the AA'ers of the early days when the success rates were much higher. He was
well loved and is missed by many

AA'ers. He was known from Columbia, SC all the way up to the top - AAWS, Inc.
His primary purpose was truly

to stay sober and help other alcoholics to acheive sobriety and is exactly how
he lived his life.

I believe in one alcoholic helping another,
I believe in AA,
I believe in the 12 Steps,
I believe in the 12 Traditions,
I have Hope and Faith,
I know there is a Power greater than myself,
His name is God and His Son died for my sins.

Yours in service,
Jim M,
http://www.silkworth.net/

0 -1 0 0
6438 allan_gengler
Re: Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 Times and places of AA Meetings in April 1939 4/8/2010 1:04:00 PM

The Forward to the Second Editions says there were THREE groups.

From the FORWARD: "A second small group promptly took shape at New York, to be
followed in 1937 with the start of a third at Cleveland. Besides these, there
were scattered alcoholics who had picked up the basic ideas in Akron or New York
who were trying to form groups in other cities. By late 1937, the number of
members having substantial sobriety time behind them was sufficient to convince
the membership that a new light had entered the dark world of the alcoholic."

0 -1 0 0
6439 Glenn Chesnut
1 % A.A. success rate statistically impossible 1 % A.A. success rate statistically impossible 4/9/2010 7:41:00 PM

It is statistically impossible for AA to have only a 1% success rate.
 
There are about 1 million A.A. members in the U.S., according to the official
A.A. statistics.*

Now if 100 raving