tblYgr_AAHistoryLovers
YahooMessageID From FromEmail Subject SubjectSrt RecDate Message AttCount NewMsgFlag DelMsgFlag FavMsgFlag
7090 ckbudnick
Document called: Why Do The Steps Work? Document called: Why Do The Steps Work? 1/3/2011 1:14:00 PM

Is anyone familiar with the origin of a document titled "Why Do The Steps Work?"

The document includes:

How did the 12 step program originate?
Dr. William D. Silkworth
Dr. Carl Jung
Frank Buchman
Ebby's Meeting With Bill
Bill's Last Treatment: Spiritual Experience and Williams James
Bill's Early Recovery And Meeting With Dr. Bob
Refinement Of The Program Of Action
What Are The Spiritual Principles Of The 12 Steps?
Recapping The Problem And The Solution
How Can A 12 Step Program Work For A Non-Religious Person?
Changing Our Ideas, Attitudes And Behavior

Thanks,

Chris B.
Raleigh, NC

0 -1 0 0
7091 john wikelius
Out of print pamphlets Out of print pamphlets 12/31/2010 5:29:00 PM

I am looking at a 11/63 aaws catalog of literature and wanted to know if anyone
has pictures of

P-13 Fortune Reprint
P-14 Good Housekeeping Reprint
P-26 Corrections Officials Evaluate A.A.
P-27 Hospital Administratore Evaluate A. A.
P-28 Patterns of A. A. Cooperation with Hospitals
P-29 Cooperation but Not affiliation
P-30 The Fellowship of A. A.
P-31 A. A. - Helpful Ally in Coping with Alcoholism
P-32 Basic Fact File
P-33 Background Editorial Material
P-34 Background Radio-TV Material
P-35 Public Information Kit
 
Contact me at:  justjohn1431946@yahoo.com
(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)

Thank you and best to all in the New Year 2011.

John Wikelius
Enterprise, Alabama

0 -1 0 0
7092 Tom Hickcox
Re: AA in Pakistan AA in Pakistan 12/29/2010 5:26:00 PM

Article in the Guardian: "Alcoholism booms in 'dry' Pakistan"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/27/alcoholism-boom-pakistan?INTCMP=SRCH

Tommy

0 -1 0 0
7093 Arun Shelar
Re: AA in Pakistan AA in Pakistan 12/31/2010 7:24:00 AM

Please visit following site or contact on tel no. so that you can get the
information locally.

For A A in Pakistan http://www.aapakistan.yolasite.com 

Contact number is 0303-2899006 and contact person is Bilal L.

with love,
Arun

0 -1 0 0
7094 rajiv
AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? 12/30/2010 4:36:00 AM

I have read much of the history of how the AA groups started in other cities
after the Big Book was published. And it seems that the members who started AA
in other cities had first been helped through the Steps by one of 100 founding
members or by some alcoholic whom they had helped.

I would like to know if there is any record of alcoholics, who had recovered by
merely following the directions from the Big Book, without any contact with
recovered alcoholics from other cities, starting AA in their cities.

Thanks.

Rajiv

0 -1 0 0
7095 schaberg43
Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book 12/30/2010 11:59:00 AM

Many changes in Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend"

I hesitate to contradict Jared - he is a true and reliable wellspring of
information both important and arcane and perhaps the most scrupulous researcher
within our fold - but there were some extensive edits done to Fitz M's story
"Our Southern Friend" when it was reprinted in the second edition (and then
preserved in the third and fourth editions).

For instance, the first three paragraphs that appear in this story in the first
edition have been deleted, along with other deletions and additions throughout.

During a recent visit to the Stepping Stones archive we were able to see even
earlier versions of this story that are preserved there, containing some
interesting variations from the one published in the first edition.

Old Bill

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:
>
> And btw the one (other than Bob's and Bill's) retained unedited was Fitz M.,
"Our Southern Friend" -- in all four editions. Arch T's "The Man Who Mastered
Fear" (edited and retitled) is the only other 1st edition story still in the 4th
edition.
>

0 -1 0 0
7096 khemex@comcast.net
RE: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? 12/30/2010 7:01:00 PM

There is a masterful history of the Washingtonian movement by Milton Maxwell
(past Chairman of the Alcoholic Foundation). It's about 80 pages as I recall, so
it's probably too big to post to WIKI. That's the source that I use to find data
on the movement pre 1935.

Gerry Winkelman

___________________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:22:57 PM
Subject: RE: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the
Washingtonians?

The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders
are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It
doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite.

0 -1 0 0
7097 Charles Knapp
Re: Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses 12/24/2010 9:17:00 PM

From Charles Knapp, Alex H., planternva,
aalogsdon, Mike F., and jhoffma6

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>
(cpknapp at yahoo.com)

Hey Group,

The 1st printing of "A New Pair of Glasses" came out in May 1984. I have a 2nd
printing and it came out Sept 1984.

Charles Anxon Chamberlain was born in Lawrencepost, Indiana, Aug 3, 1903. He
married Elsa Winnifred Matthews in 1926 in LA (married 58 years). They had 2
boys: William H Chamberlain in 1927 and George Richard Chamberlain in 1934.
Chuck C. died in Laguna Beach, California on Dec 14, 1984. His date of sobriety
was January ?, 1946 (sober 38 years).

So the book was out at least 7 months before Chuck died.

In one of his talks, I have heard Clancy say that Chuck did know about this
book, but cannot remember what Clancy said his reaction to it was. Will see if I
can locate this tape and post some additional information.

Hope this helps,

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From: Alex H <jewishbridge@gmail.com>
(jewishbridge at gmail.com)

According to the Forward in the book "A New Pair of Glasses" (in front
of me at the moment) it says that Chuck C. and his wife Elma helped Lee T. to
pick out and arrange the tapes from the Pala Mesa Retreat and turn them into
book form. Exactly how much work that was I have no idea but what is implied is
that Lee T. had Chuck and Elma's permission and the words were Chuck's.

[I am a past member of the Ohio Street meetings and though I cannot say I knew
Chuck, he saved my life by close proxy nevertheless. I believe that with all my
heart.]

Shabbat Shalom,
Alex H.

- - - -

From: "planternva2000" <planternva2000@yahoo.com>
(planternva2000 at yahoo.com)

As to whether Chuck C. would have approved of "A New Pair of Glasses" being
printed, we have this from page xiii:

"This man, Chuck C., is the first human being I have ever met who truly has
something I want. I want what he has. I once asked him which of the hundreds of
tapes that have been recorded of his talks over the years best represented his
thinking. he did not hesitate when he replied that the talks he gave at the Pala
Mesa Retreat, a gathering of fellow alcoholic men in 1975, included just about
all his thoughts on the program of alcoholics Anonymous and the Program of Life.

"With the help of Chuck C. and his wife, Elsa, we have put these tapes into
writing so that the countless number of people that Chuck has touched and will
touch in the future may have a volume to pick up and gain comfort from."

Jim S.

- - - -

From: Aalogsdon <aalogsdon@aol.com>
(aalogsdon at aol.com)

Sorry ... my copy of the first printing is buried at the moment but I have a
copy signed by Chuck C. From memory I believe he died in December 1984 some
months after the book came out. Howard P. of Arizona also has a signed copy that
I once owned.

As to how it was written, see the book THE WHEEL AND I by John Crene for
details.

- - - -

From GC the moderator: is this the book listed in Amazon as authored by John
Crean, The Wheel and I: Driving Fleetwood Enterprises to the Top (Self-Published
in Newport Beach, CA: Author's Limited Preview Edition, 2000)? Or is this a
different book?
http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Crean-Driving-Fleetwood-Enterprises/dp/0970094507

- - - -

From: "azmikefitz" <azmikefitz@yahoo.com>
(azmikefitz at yahoo.com)

John,

The book A New Pair of Glasses was first published in a limited printing in May
1984 -- the second printing was September 1984. Chuck was still living and he
died in December of that same year.

He was aware of the book and it was done with his permission. The book was
financed by his close friend John C.

Chuck was asked prior to publication if he wanted anything changed and I've been
told he said "If I said it - it can stay". So nothing was changed in the
transcription.

I know of five signed copies of the first limited printing but have never seen a
signed copy of the second printing.

Mike F

- - - -

From: "momaria33772" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

According to the book, Chuck and Elsa were very helpful in putting the tapes of
the 1975 retreat into written form. The kook was copyright by Chuck C., 1st
published May 1984. Chuck passed on December 14, 1984. There is also a recording
of the Memorial Service later in the month.

_______________________________________________

Original message 7075
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7075
from John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com>
(contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)

Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses

Chuck C. did not write this or any other book, by the way. He never saw "A New
Pair of Glasses" and I wonder sometimes if he would have approved of it being
printed. The book is a transcript of sessions of an annual retreat at Palo Mesa
California. I think Chuck went every year, or he put it on every year ... my
recollection. I have the cassette tape copies of this retreat which was recorded
in 1975. The book came out in 1984 after his death.

My question is, was this a work in process while Chuck was still alive, and did
he know of it? Maybe someone knows...?

John M
Burlington, Vermont
12-07-1971

0 -1 0 0
7098 Jim M
1st edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit 1st edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit 1/4/2011 12:47:00 AM

Compare this 1st edition to the 2nd edition that follows in the next
post

Our Southern Friend

TWO rosy-cheeked children stand at the top of a long hill as the
glow of the winter sunset lights up the snow covered country-side. "It's
time to go home" says my sister. She is the eldest. After one more
exhilarating trip on the sled, we plod homeward through the deep snow.
The light from an oil lamp shines from an upstairs window of our home.
We stamp the snow from our boots and rush in to the warmth of the coal
stove which is supposed to heat upstairs as well. "Hello dearies," calls
Mother from above, "get your wet things off."
"Where's Father?" I ask, having gotten a whiff of sausage cooking
through the kitchen door and thinking of supper.
"He went down to the swamp," replies Mother. "He should be home
soon."
Father is an Episcopal minister and his work takes him over long drives
on bad roads. His parishioners are limited in number, but his friends
are many, for to him race, creed, or social position make no difference.
It is not long before he drives up in the old buggy. Both he and old
Maud are glad to get home. The drive was long and cold but he was
thankful for the hot bricks which some thoughtful person had given him
for his feet. Soon supper is on the table. Father says grace,

p.226

------------------------------------------

which delays my attack on the buckwheat cakes and sausage. What an
appetite!
A big setter lies asleep near the stove. He begins to make queer
sounds and his feet twitch. What is he after in his dreams? More cakes
and sausage. At last I am filled. Father goes to his study to write some
letters. Mother plays the piano and we sing. Father finishes his letters
and we all join in several exciting games of parchesi. Then Father is
persuaded to read aloud some more of "The Rose and the Ring."
Bed-time comes. I climb to my room in the attic. It is cold so
there is no delay. I crawl under a pile of blankets and blow out the
candle. The wind is rising and howls around the house. But I am safe and
warm. I fall into a dreamless sleep.

I am in church. Father is delivering his sermon. A wasp is
crawling up the back of the lady in front of me. I wonder if it will
reach her neck. Shucks! It has flown away. Ho, hum, maybe the
watermelons are ripe in Mr. Jones patch. That's an idea! Benny will
know, but Mr. Jones will not know what happened to some of them, if they
are. At last! The message has been delivered.
"Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good
works-." I hunt for my nickel to drop in the plate so that mine will be
seen.
Father comes forward in the chancel of the church. "The peace of
God which passes all understanding, keep your hearts and minds-."
Hurray! Just a hymn and then church will be over until next week!

p.227

------------------------------------------

I am in another fellow's room at college. "Freshman," said he to
me, "do you ever take a drink?" I hesitated. Father had never directly
spoken to me about drinking and he never drank any, so far as I knew.
Mother hated liquor and feared a drunken man. Her brother had been a
drinker and had died in a state hospital for the insane. But his life
was unmentionable, so far as I was concerned. I had never had a drink
but I had seen enough merriment in the boys who were drinking to be
interested. I would never be like the village drunkard at home. How a
lot of people despised him! Just a weakling!
"Well," said the older boy, "Do you?"
"Once in a while," I lied. I could not let him think I was a
sissy.
He poured out two drinks. "Here's looking at you," said he. I
gulped it down and choked. I didn't like it, but I would not say so. No,
never! A mellow glow stole over me. Say! This wasn't so bad after all.
In fact, it was darn good. Sure I'd have another. The glow increased.
Other boys came in. My tongue loosened. Everyone laughed loudly. I was
witty. I had no inferiorities. Why, I wasn't even ashamed of my skinny
legs! This was the real thing!
A haze filled the room. The electric light began to move. Then two
bulbs appeared. The faces of the other boys grew dim. How sick I felt. I
staggered to the bathroom-. Shouldn't have drunk so much or so fast. But
I knew how to handle it now. I'd drink like a gentleman after this.
And so I met John Barleycorn. The grand fellow

p.228

------------------------------------------

who at my call made me "a hale fellow, well met," who gave me such a
fine voice, as we sang "Hail, hail, the gang's all here," and "Sweet
Adeline," who gave me freedom from fear and feelings of inferiority.
Good old John! He was my pal, all right.

Final exams of my senior year and I may somehow graduate. I would
never have tried, but Mother counts on it so. A case of measles saved me
from being kicked out during my Sophomore year. Bells, bells, bells!
Class, library, laboratory! Am I tired!
But the end is in sight. My last exam and an easy one. I gaze at
the board with its questions. Can't remember the answer to the first.
I'll try the second. No soap there. Say this is getting serious! I don't
seem to remember anything. I concentrate on one of the questions. I
don't seem to be able to keep my mind on what I am doing. I get uneasy.
If I don't get started soon, I won't have time to finish. No use. I
can't think.
Oh! An idea! I leave the room, which the honor system allows. I go
to my room. I pour out half a tumbler of grain alcohol and fill it with
ginger ale. Oh, boy! Now back to the exam. My pen moves rapidly. I know
enough of the answers to get by. Good old John Barleycorn! He can
certainly be depended on. What a wonderful power he has over the mind!
He has given me my diploma!

Underweight! How I hate that word. Three attempts to enlist in the
service, and three failures because of being skinny. True, I have
recently recovered from

p.229

------------------------------------------

pneumonia and have an alibi, but my friends are in the war, or going,
and I am not. To hell with it all! I visit a friend who is awaiting
orders. The atmosphere of "eat, drink, and be merry" prevails and I
absorb it. I drink a lot every night. I can hold a lot now, more than
the others.
I am examined for the draft and pass the physical exam. What a
dirty deal! Drafted! The shame of it. I am to go to camp on November
13th. The Armistice is signed on the 11th and the draft is called off.
Never in the service! The war leaves me with a pair of blankets, a
toilet kit, a sweater knit by my sister, and a still greater
inferiority.

It is ten o'clock of a Saturday night. I am working hard on the
books of a subsidiary company of a large corporation. I have had
experience in selling, collecting, and accounting, and am on my way up
the ladder.
Then the crack-up. Cotton struck the skids and collections went
cold. A twenty three million dollar surplus wiped out. Offices closed up
and workers discharged. I, and the books of my division have been
transferred to the head office. I have no assistance and am working
nights, Saturdays and Sundays. My salary has been cut. My wife and new
baby are fortunately staying with relatives, What a life! I feel
exhausted. The doctor has told me that if I don't give up inside work,
I'll have tuberculosis. But what am I to do? I have a family to support
and have no time to be looking for another job.

p.230

------------------------------------------

Oh, well. I reach for the bottle which I just got from George, the
elevator boy.

I am a traveling salesman. The day is over and business has been
not so good. I'll go to bed. I wish I were home with the family and not
in this dingy hotel.
Well-well-look who's here! Good old Charlie! It's great to see
him. How's the boy? A drink? You bet your life! We buy a gallon of
"corn" because it is so cheap. Yet I am fairly steady when I go to bed.
Morning comes. I feel horribly. A little drink will put me on my
feet. But it takes others to keep me there.
I see some prospects. I am too miserable to care if they give me
an order or not. My breath would knock out a mule, I learn from a
friend. Back at the hotel and more to drink. I come to early in the
morning. My mind is fairly clear, but inwardly I am undergoing torture.
My nerves are screaming in agony. I go to the drug store and it is not
open. I wait. Minutes are interminable. Will the store never open? At
last! I hurry in. The druggist fixes me up a bromide. I go back to the
hotel and lie down. I wait. I am going crazy. The bromides have no
effect. I get a doctor. He gives me a hypodermic. Blessed peace!
And I blame this experience on the quality of the liquor.

I am a real estate salesman. "What is the price of that house," I
ask the head of the firm I work for. He names me a price. Then he says,
"That is what the builders

p.231

------------------------------------------

are asking, but we will add on $500.00 and split it, if you can close
the deal." The prospect signs the contract for the full amount. My boss
buys the property and sells to the prospect. I get my commission and
$250.00 extra and everything is Jake. But is it? Something is sour. So
let's have a drink!
I become a teacher in a boy's school. I am happy in my work. I
like the boys and we have lots of fun, in class and out.
An unhappy mother comes to me about her boy, for she knows I am
fond of him. They expected him to get high marks and he has not the
ability to do it. So he altered his report card through fear of his
father. And his dishonesty has been discovered. Why are there so many
foolish parents, and why is there so much unhappiness in these homes?
The doctors bills are heavy and the bank account is low. My wife's
parents come to our assistance. I am filled with hurt pride and
self-pity. I seem to get no sympathy for my illness and have no
appreciation of the love behind the gift.
I call the boot-legger and fill up my charred keg. But I do not
wait for the charred keg to work. I get drunk. My wife is extremely
unhappy. Her father comes to sit with me. He never says an unkind word.
He is a real friend but I do not appreciate him.

We are staying with my wife's father. Her mother is in critical
condition at a hospital. The wind is moaning in the pine trees. I cannot
sleep. I must get myself

p.232

------------------------------------------

together. I sneak down stairs and get a bottle of whiskey from the
cellaret. I pour drinks down my throat. My father-in-law appears. "Have
a drink?" I ask. He makes no reply, and hardly seems to see me. His wife
dies that night.

Mother has been dying of cancer for a long time. She is near the
end and now in a hospital. I have been drinking a lot, but never get
drunk. Mother must never know. I see her about to go.
I return to the hotel where I am staying and get gin from the
bell-boy. I drink and go to bed; I take a few the next morning and go
see my mother once more. I cannot stand it. I go back to the hotel and
get more gin. I drink steadily. I come to at three in the morning. The
indescribable torture has me again. I turn on the light. I must get out
of the room or I shall jump out of the window. I walk miles. No use. I
go to the hospital, where I have made friends with the night
superintendent. She puts me to bed and gives me a hypodermic. Oh,
wonderful peace!

Mother and Father die the same year. What is life all about
anyway? The world is crazy. Read the newspapers. Everything is a racket.
Education is a racket. Medicine is a racket. Religion is a racket. How
could there be a loving God who would allow so much suffering and
sorrow? Bah! Don't talk to me about religion. For what were my children
ever born? I wish I were dead!

p.233

------------------------------------------

I am at the hospital to see my wife. We have another child. But
she is not glad to see me. I have been drinking while the baby was
arriving. Her father stays with her.

My parents estates are settled at last. I have some money. I'll
try farming. It will be a good life. I'll farm on a large scale and make
a good thing of it. But the deluge descends. Lack of judgment, bad
management, a hurricane, and the depression create debts in
ever-increasing number. But the stills are' operating throughout the
country-side.

It is a cold, bleak day in November. I have fought hard to stop
drinking. Each battle has ended in defeat. I tell my wife I cannot stop
drinking. She begs me to go to a hospital for alcoholics which has been
recommended. I say I will go. She makes the arrangements, but I will not
go. I'll do it all myself. This time I'm off of it for good. I'll just
take a few beers now and then.

It is the last day of the following October, a dark, rainy
morning. I come to in a pile of hay in a barn. I look for liquor and
can't find any. I wander to a stable and drink five bottles of beer. I
must get some liquor. Suddenly I feel hopeless, unable to go on. I go
home. My wife is in the living room. She had looked for me last evening
after I left the car and wandered off into the night. She had looked for
me this morning. She

p.234

------------------------------------------

has reached the end of her rope. There is no use trying any more, for
there is nothing to try. "Don't say anything," I say to her. "I am going
to do something."

I am in the hospital for alcoholics. I am an alcoholic. The insane
asylum lies ahead. Could I have myself locked up at home? One more
foolish idea. I might go out West on a ranch where I couldn't get
anything to drink. I might do that. Another foolish idea. I wish I were
dead, as I have often wished before. I am too yellow to kill myself. But
maybe-. The thought stays in my mind.

Four alcoholics play bridge in a smoke-filled room. Anything to
get my mind from myself. The game is over and the other three leave. I
start to clean up the debris. One man comes back, closing the door
behind him.
He looks at me. "You think you are hopeless, don't you?" he asks.
"I know it," I reply.
"Well, you're not," says the man. "There are men on the streets of
New York today who were worse than you, and they don't drink anymore."
"What are you doing here then?" I ask.
"I went out of here nine days ago saying that I was going to be
honest, and I wasn't," he answers.
A fanatic, I thought to myself, but I was polite. "What is it?" I
enquire.
Then he asks me if I believe in a power greater than myself,
whether I call that power God, Allah, Con-

p.235

------------------------------------------

fucius, Prime Cause, Divine Mind, or any other name. I told him that I
believe in electricity and other forces of nature, but as for a God, if
there is one, He has never done anything for me. Then he asks me if I am
willing to right all the wrongs I have ever done to anyone, no matter
how wrong I thought they were. Am I willing to be honest with myself
about myself and tell someone about myself, and am I willing to think of
other people. and of their needs instead of myself; to get rid of the
drink problem?
"I'll do anything," I reply.
"Then all of your troubles are over" says the man and leaves the
room. The man is in bad mental shape certainly. I pick up a book and try
to read, but cannot concentrate. I get in bed and turn out the light.
But I cannot sleep. Suddenly a thought comes. Can all the worthwhile
people I have known be wrong about God? Then I find myself thinking
about myself, and a few things that I had wanted to forget. I begin to
see I am not the person I had thought myself, that I had judged myself
by comparing myself to others, and always to my own advantage. It is a
shock.
Then comes a thought that is like A Voice. "Who are you to say
there is no God?" It rings in my head, I can't get rid of it.
I get out of bed and go to the man's room. He is reading. "I must
ask you a question," I say to the man. "How does prayer fit into this
thing?"
"Well," he answers, "you've probably tried praying like I have.
When you've been in a jam you've said, 'God, please do this or that' and
if it turned out your

p.236

------------------------------------------

way that was the last of it and if it didn't you've said 'There isn't
any God' or 'He doesn't do anything for me'. Is that right?"
"Yes" I reply.
"That isn't the way" he continued. "The thing I do is to say 'God
here I am and here are all my troubles. I've made a mess of things and
can't do anything about it. You take me, and all my troubles, and do
anything you want with me.' Does that answer your question?"
"Yes, it does" I answer. I return to bed. It doesn't make sense.
Suddenly I feel a wave of utter hopelessness sweep over me. I am in the
bottom of hell. And there a tremendous hope is born. It might be true.
I tumble out of bed onto my knees. I know not what I say. But
slowly a great peace comes to me. I feel lifted up. I believe in God. I
crawl back into bed and sleep like a child.
Some men and women come to visit my friend of the night before. He
invites me to meet them. They are a joyous crowd. I have never seen
people that joyous before. We talk. I tell them of the Peace, and that I
believe in God. I think of my wife. I must write her. One girl suggests
that I phone her. What a wonderful idea.
My wife hears my voice and knows I have found the answer to life.
She comes to New York. I get out of the hospital and we visit some of
these new-found friends. What a glorious time we have!

I am home again. I have lost the fellowship. Those that understand
me are far away. The same old prob-

p.237

------------------------------------------

lems and worries surround me. Members of my family annoy me. Nothing
seems to be working out right. I am blue and unhappy. Maybe a drink-I
put on my hat and dash off in the car.
Get into the lives of other people, is one thing the fellows in
New York had said. I go to see a man I had been asked to visit and tell
him my story. I feel much better! I have forgotten about a drink.

I am on a train, headed for a city. I have left my wife at home,
sick, and I have been unkind to her in leaving. I am very unhappy. Maybe
a few drinks when I get to the city will help. A great fear seizes me. I
talk to the stranger in the seat with me. The fear and the insane idea
is taken away.

Things are not going so well at home. I am learning that I cannot
have my own way as I used to. I blame my wife and children. Anger
possesses me, anger such as I have never felt before. I will not stand
for it. I pack my bag and leave. I stay with understanding friends.
I see where I have been wrong in some respects. I do not feel
angry any more. I return home and say I am sorry for my wrong. I am
quiet again. But I have not seen yet that I should do some constructive
acts of love without expecting any return. I shall learn this after some
more explosions.

I am blue again. I want to sell the place and move away. I want to
get where I can find some alcoholics to

p.238

------------------------------------------

help, and where I can have some fellowship. A man calls me on the phone.
Will I take a young fellow who has been drinking for two weeks to live
with me? Soon I have others who are alcoholics and some who have other
problems.
I begin to play God. I feel that I can fix them all. I do not fix
anyone, but I am getting part of a tremendous education and I have made
some new friends.

Nothing is right. Finances are in bad shape. I must find a way to
make some money. The family seems to think of nothing but spending.
People annoy me. I try to read. I try to pray. Gloom surrounds me. Why
has God left me? I mope around the house. I will not go out and I will
not enter into anything. What is the matter? I cannot understand. I will
not be that way.
I'll get drunk! It is a cold-blooded idea. It is premeditated. I
fix up a little apartment over the garage with books and drinking water.
I am going to town to get some liquor and food. I shall not drink until
I get back to the apartment. Then I shall lock myself in and read. And
as I read, I shall take little drinks at long intervals. I shall get
myself "mellow" and stay that way.
I get in the car and drive off. Halfway down the driveway a
thought strikes me. I'll be honest anyway. I'll tell my wife what I am
going to do. I back up to the door and go into the house. I call my wife
into a room where we can talk privately. I tell her quietly what I
intend to do. She says nothing. She does not get excited. She maintains
a perfect calm.
When I am through speaking, the whole idea has be-

p.239

------------------------------------------

come absurd. Not a trace of fear is in me. I laugh at the insanity of
it. We talk of other things. Strength has come from weakness.
I cannot see the cause of this temptation now. But I am to learn
later that it began with the desire for my own material success becoming
greater than the interest in the welfare of my fellow man. I learn more
of that foundation stone of character, which is honesty. I learn that
when we act upon the highest conception of honesty which is given us,
our sense of honesty becomes more acute.
I learn that honesty is truth, and the truth shall make us free!

Sensuality, drunkenness, and worldliness satisfy a man for a time,
but their power is a decreasing one. God produces harmony in those who
receive His Spirit and follow Its dictates.
Today as I become more harmonized within, I become more in tune
with all of God's wonderful creation. The singing of the birds, the
sighing of the wind, the patter of raindrops, the roll of thunder, the
laughter of happy children, add to the symphony with which I am in tune.
The heaving ocean, the driving rain, autumn leaves, the stars of heaven,
the perfume of flowers, music, a smile, and a host of other things tell
me of the glory of God.
There are periods of darkness, but the stars are shining, no
matter how black the night. There are disturbances, but I have learned
that if I seek patience and open-mindedness, understanding will come.
And with

p.240

------------------------------------------

it, direction by the Spirit of God. The dawn comes and with it more
understanding, the peace that passes understanding, and the joy of
living that is not disturbed by the wildness of circumstances or people
around me. Fears, resentments, pride, worldly desires, worry, and
self-pity no longer possess me. Ever-increasing are the number of true
friends, ever-growing is the capacity for love, ever-widening is the
horizon of understanding. And above all else comes a greater
thankfulness to, and a greater love for Our Father in heaven.
Our Southern Friend
John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) M.
<http://www.silkworth.net/aabiography/fitzmayo.html> Click here
<http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesf.html#FitzM> for more
resources on Fitz M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
7099 Jim M
2nd edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit 2nd edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit 1/4/2011 12:58:00 AM

Compare to the 1st edition previously posted; edited in this 2nd
edition

OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND

Pioneer A.A., minister's son, and southern farmer,
"Who am I," said he, "to say there is no God?"

FATHER IS AN Episcopal minister and his work takes him over long
drives on bad roads. His parishioners are limited in number, but his
friends are many, for to him race, creed, or social position make no
difference. It is not long before he drives up in the buggy. Both he and
old Maud are glad to get home. The drive was long and cold but he was
thankful for the hot bricks which some thoughtful person had given him
for his feet. Soon supper is on the table. Father says grace, which
delays my attack on the buckwheat cakes ans sausage.
Bed-time comes. I climb to my room in the attic. It is cold so
there is no delay. I craw under a pile of blankets and blow out the
candle. The wind is rising and howls around the house. But I am safe and
warm. I fall into a dreamless sleep.
I am in church. Father is delivering his sermon. A wasp is
crawling up the back of the lady in front of me. I wonder if it will
reach her neck. Shucks! It has flown away. At last! The message has been
delivered.
"Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good
works-." I hunt for my nickel to drop in the plate so that mine will be
seen.
I am in another fellow's room at colledge. "Fresh-

460 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND
man," said he to me, "do you ever take a drink?" I hesitated. Father had
never directly spoken to me about drinking but he never drank any, so
far as I knew. Mother hated liquor and feared a drunken man. Her brother
had been a drinker and had died in a state hospital for the insane. But
his life was unmentioned, so far as I was concerned. I had never had a
drink, but I had seen enough merriment in the boys who were drinking to
be interested. I would never be like the village drunkard at home.
"Well," said the older boy, "Do you?"
"Once in a while," I lied. I could not let him think I was a
sissy.
He poured out two drinks. "Here's looking at you," said he. I
gulped it down and choked. I didn't like it, but I would not say so. A
mellow glow stole over me. This wasn't so bad after all. Sure I'd have
another. The glow increased. Other boys came in. My tongue loosened.
Everyone laughed loudly. I was witty. I had no inferiorities. Why, I
wasn't even ashamed of my skinny legs! This was the real thing!
A haze filled the room. The electric light began to move. Then two
bulbs appeared. The faces of the other boys grew dim. How sick I felt. I
staggered to the bathroom. Shouldn't have drunk so much or so fast. But
I knew how to handle it now. I'd drink like a gentleman after this.
And so I met John Barleycorn. The grand fellow who at my call made
me "a hale fellow, well met," who gave me such a fine voice, as we sang,
"Hail, hail, the gang's all here," and "Sweet Adeline," who gave me
freedom from fear and feelings of inferiority. Good old John! He was my
pal, all right.

461 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
Final exams of my Senior year and I may somehow graduate. I would
never have tried, but mother counts on it so. A case of measles saved me
from being kicked out during my Sophomore year.
But the end is in sight. My last exam and an easy one. I gaze at
the board with its questions. Can't remember the answer to the first.
I'll try the second. No soap there. I don't seem to remember anything. I
concentrate on one of the questions. I don't seem to be able to keep my
mind on what I am doing. I get uneasy. If I don't get started soon, I
won't have time to finish. No use. I can't think.
I leave the room, which the honor system allows. I go to my room.
I pour out half a tumbler of grain alcohol and fill it with ginger ale.
Now back to the exam. My pen moves rapidly. I know enough of the answers
to get by. Good old John Barleycorn! He can certainly be depended on.
What a wonderful power he has over the mind! He has given me my diploma!
Underweight! How I hate that word. Three attempts to enlist in the
service, and three failures because of being skinny. True, I have
recently recovered from pneumonia and have an alibi, but my friends are
in the war or going, and I am not. I visit a friend who is awaiting
orders. The atmosphere of "eat, drink, and be merry" prevails and I
absorb it. I drink a lot every night. I can hold a lot now, more than
the others.
I am examined for the draft and pass the physical test. I am to go
to camp on November 13th. The Armistice is signed on the 11th and the
draft is called off. Never in the service! The war leaves me with a pair
of blankets, a toilet kit, a sweater knit by my sister, and a still
greater inferiority.

462 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND
It is ten o'clock of a Saturday night. I am working hard on the
books of a subsidiary company of a large corporation. I have had
experience in selling, collecting, and accounting, and am on my way up
the ladder.
Then the crack-up. Cotton struck the skids and collections went
cold. A twenty three million dollar surplus wiped out. Offices closed up
and workers discharged. I, and the books of my division, have been
transferred to the head office. I have no assistance and am working
nights, Saturdays and Sundays. My salary has been cut. My wife and new
baby are fortunately staying with relatives. I feel exhausted. The
doctor has told me that if I don't give up inside work, I'll have
tuberculosis. But what am I to do? I have a family to support and have
no time to be looking for another job.
I reach for the bottle which I just got from George, the elevator
boy.
I am a traveling salesman. The day is over and business has been
not so good. I'll go to bed. I wish I were home with the family and not
in this dingy hotel.
Well-well-look who's here! Good old Charlie! It's great to see
him. How's the boy? A drink? You bet your life! We buy a gallon of
"corn" because it is so cheap. Yet I am fairly steady when I go to bed.
Morning comes. I feel horribly. A little drink will put me on my
feet. But it takes others to keep me there.
I become a teacher in a boy's school. I am happy in my work. I
like the boys and we have lots of fun, in class and out.

463 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
The doctors bills are heavy and the bank account is low. My wife's
parents come to our assistance. I am filled with hurt pride and
self-pity. I seem to get no sympathy for my illness and have no
appreciation of the love behind the gift.
I call the bootlegger and fill up my charred keg. But I do not
wait for the charred keg to work. I get drunk. My wife is extremely
unhappy. Her father comes to sit with me. He never says an unkind word.
He is a real friend but I do not appreciate him.
We are staying with my wife's father. Her mother is in critical
condition at a hospital. I cannot sleep. I must get myself together. I
sneak down stairs and get a bottle of whiskey from the cellaret. I pour
drinks down my throat. My father-in-law appears. "Have a drink?" I ask.
He makes no reply, and hardly seems to see me. His wife dies that night.
Mother has been dying of cancer for a long time. She is near the
end now and is in a hospital. I have been drinking a lot, but never get
drunk. Mother must never know. I see her about to go.
I return to the hotel where I am staying and get gin from the
bellboy. I drink and go to bed; I take a few the next morning and go see
my mother once more. I cannot stand it. I go back to the hotel and get
more gin. I drink steadily. I come to at three in the morning. The
indescribable torture has me again. I turn on the light. I must get out
of the room or I shall jump out of the window. I walk miles. No use. I
go to the hospital, where I have made friends with the night
superintendent. She puts me to bed and gives me a hypodermic.
I am at the hospital to see my wife. We have an-

464 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND
other child. But she is not glad to see me. I have been drinking while
the baby was arriving. Her father stays with her.
It is a cold, bleak day in November. I have fought hard to stop
drinking. Each battle has ended in defeat. I tell my wife I cannot stop
drinking. She begs me to go to a hospital for alcoholics which has been
recommended. I say I will go. She makes the arrangements, but I will not
go. I'll do it all myself. This time I'm off of it for good. I'll just
take a few beers now and then.
It is the last day of the following October, a dark, rainy
morning. I come to in a pile of hay in a barn. I look for liquor and
can't find any. I wander to a stable and drink five bottles of beer. I
must get some liquor. Suddenly I feel hopeless, unable to go on. I go
home. My wife is in the living room. She had looked for me last evening
after I left the car and wandered off into the night. She had looked for
me this morning. She has reached the end of her rope. There is no use
trying any more, for there is nothing to try. "Don't say anything," I
say to her. "I am going to do something."
I am in the hospital for alcoholics. I am an alcoholic. The insane
asylum lies ahead. Could I have myself locked up at home? One more
foolish idea. I might go out West on a ranch where I couldn't get
anything to drink. I might do that. Another foolish idea. I wish I were
dead, as I have often wished before. I am too yellow to kill myself.
Four alcoholics play bridge in a smoke-filled room. Anything to
get my mind from myself. The game is over and the other three leave. I
start to clean up the

465 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
debris. One man comes back, closing the door behind him.
He looks at me. "You think you are hopeless, don't you?" he asks.
"I know it," I reply.
"Well, you're not," says the man. "There are men on the streets of
New York today who were worse than you, and they don't drink anymore."
"What are you doing here then?" I ask.
"I went out of here nine days ago saying that I was going to be
honest, and I wasn't," he answers.
A fanatic, I thought to myself, but I was polite. "What is it?" I
enquire.
Then he asks me if I believe in a power greater than myself,
whether I call that power God, Allah, Confucius, Prime Cause, Divine
Mind, or any other name. I told him that I believe in electricity and
other forces of nature, but as for a God, if there is one, He has never
done anything for me. Then he asks me if I am willing to right all the
wrongs I have ever done to anyone, no matter how wrong I thought the
others were. Am I willing to be honest with myself about myself and tell
someone about myself, and am I willing to think of other people, of
their needs instead of myself, in order to get rid of the drink problem?
"I'll do anything," I reply.
"Then all of your troubles are over," says the man and leaves the
room. The man is in bad mental shape certainly. I pick up a book and try
to read, but cannot concentrate. I get in bed and turn out the light.
But I cannot sleep. Suddenly a thought comes. Can all the worthwhile
people I have known be wrong about God? Then I find myself thinking
about myself,

466 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND
and a few things that I had wanted to forget. I begin to see I am not
the person I had thought myself, that I had judged myself by comparing
myself to others, and always to my own advantage. It is a shock.
Then comes a thought that is like A Voice. "Who are you to say
there is no God?" It rings in my head; I can't get rid of it.
I get out of bed and go to the man's room. He is reading. "I must
ask you a question," I say to the man. "How does prayer fit into this
thing?"
"Well," he answers, "you've probably tried praying like I have.
When you've been in a jam you've said, 'God, please do this or that,'
and if it turned out your way that was the last of it, and if it didn't
you've said 'There isn't any God' or 'He doesn't do anything for me'. Is
that right?"
"Yes" I reply.
"That isn't the way" he continued. "The thing I do is to say 'God
here I am and here are all my troubles. I've made a mess of things and
can't do anything about it. You take me, and all my troubles, and do
anything you want with me.' Does that answer your question?"
"Yes, it does" I answer. I return to bed. It doesn't make sense.
Suddenly I feel a wave of utter hopelessness sweep over me. I am in the
bottom of hell. And there a tremendous hope is born. It might be true.
I tumble out of bed onto my knees. I know not what I say. But
slowly a great peace comes to me. I believe in God. I crawl back into
bed and sleep like a child.
Some men and women come to visit my friend of the night before. He
invites me to meet them. They are a joyous crowd. I have never seen
people that joyous

467 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
before. We talk. I tell them of the peace, and that I believe in God. I
think of my wife. I must write her. One girl suggests that I phone her.
What a wonderful idea!
My wife hears my voice and knows I have found the answer to life.
She comes to New York. I get out of the hospital and we visit some of
these new-found friends.
I am home again. I have lost the fellowship. Those that understand
me are far away. The same old problems and worries surround me. Members
of my family annoy me. Nothing seems to be working out right. I am blue
and unhappy. Maybe a drink—I put on my hat and dash off in the car.
Get into the lives of other people, is one thing the fellows in
New York had said. I go to see a man I had been asked to visit and tell
him my story. I feel much better! I have forgotten about a drink.
I am on a train, headed for a city. I have left my wife at home,
sick, and I have been unkind to her in leaving. I am very unhappy. Maybe
a few drinks when I get to the city will help. A great fear seizes me. I
talk to the stranger in the seat beside me. The fear and the insane idea
is taken away.
Things are not going so well at home. I am learning that I cannot
have my own way as I used to. I blame my wife and children. Anger
possesses me, anger such as I have never felt before. I will not stand
for it. I pack my bag and leave. I stay with understanding friends.
I see where I have been wrong in some respects. I do not feel
angry any more. I return home and say I am sorry for my wrong. I am
quiet again. But I have

468 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND
not seen yet that I should do some constructive acts of love without
expecting any return. I shall learn this after some more explosions.
I am blue again. I want to sell the place and move away. I want to
get where I can find some alcoholics to help, and where I can have some
fellowship. A man calls me on the phone. Will I take a young fellow who
has been drinking for two weeks to live with me? Soon I have others who
are alcoholics and some who have other problems.
I begin to play God. I feel that I can fix them all. I do not fix
anyone, but I am getting part of a tremendous education and I have made
some new friends.
Nothing is right. Finances are in bad shape. I must find a way to
make some money. The family seems to think of nothing but spending.
People annoy me. I try to read. I try to pray. Gloom surrounds me. Why
has God left me? I mope around the house. I will not go out and I will
not enter into anything. What is the matter? I cannot understand. I will
not be that way.
I'll get drunk! It is a cold-blooded idea. It is premeditated. I
fix up a little apartment over the garage with books and drinking water.
I am going to town to get some liquor and food. I shall not drink until
I get back to the apartment. Then I shall lock myself in and read. And
as I read, I shall take little drinks at long intervals. I shall get
myself "mellow" and stay that way.
I get in the car and drive off. Halfway down the driveway a
thought strikes me. I'll be honest anyway. I'll tell my wife what I am
going to do. I back up to the door and go into the house. I call my wife
into a

469 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
room where we can talk privately. I tell her quietly what I intend to
do. She says nothing. She does not get excited. She maintains a perfect
calm.
When I am through speaking, the whole idea has become absurd. Not
a trace of fear is in me. I laugh at the insanity of it. We talk of
other things. Strength has come from weakness.
I cannot see the cause of this temptation now. But I am to learn
later that it began with my desire for material success becoming greater
than my interest in the welfare of my fellow man. I learn more of that
foundation stone of character, which is honesty. I learn that when we
act upon the highest conception of honesty which is given us, our sense
of honesty becomes more acute.
I learn that honesty is truth, and the truth shall make us free!



470 "Our Southern Friend" John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) M.
<http://www.silkworth.net/aabiography/fitzmayo.html>
Click here <http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesf.html#FitzM>
for more resources on Fitz M._________________________ All of the
Second editions stories, along with the 1st edition stories, are now
available from silkworth.net in their entirety here, including all
changes: http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/2nd/stories.html
<http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/2nd/stories.html> ~Jim M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
7100 J. Lobdell
Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book 1/4/2011 5:54:00 PM

I went back and looked again and Bill, unsurprisingly (given his ability and
dedication), is right. Fitz's story did not change from 2 to 3 to 4, but it did
change between 1 and 2 (oddly, I think, considering Fitz couldn't have approved
the changes after 1943). I would be very interested indeed in the changes from
the prepub text to Edition 1.

__________________________________________

> From: schaberg@aol.com
> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:59:25 +0000
> Subject: Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book
>
> Many changes in Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend"
>
> I hesitate to contradict Jared - he is a true and reliable wellspring of
information both important and arcane and perhaps the most scrupulous researcher
within our fold - but there were some extensive edits done to Fitz M's story
"Our Southern Friend" when it was reprinted in the second edition (and then
preserved in the third and fourth editions).
>
> For instance, the first three paragraphs that appear in this story in the
first edition have been deleted, along with other deletions and additions
throughout.
>
> During a recent visit to the Stepping Stones archive we were able to see even
earlier versions of this story that are preserved there, containing some
interesting variations from the one published in the first edition.
>
> Old Bill

0 -1 0 0
7101 Charles Knapp
Re: AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? 1/4/2011 6:20:00 AM

When you said no help from any other member, I assume you do not mean members
working at the AA office in New York. Early on, almost any request for
information was always followed up and contact was kept with new
prospects. Bobbie B was one of those New York office workers that followed up
with new members and occasionally sponsored loner members. 

One person does come to mind. Pat Cooper in Los Angeles got sober from reading
the manuscript for the Big Book before it was published. His story was in the
1st Edition of the Big Book called "Lone Endeavor." After the book was
published, Pat made a trip to New York, but arrived drunk. The story was pulled
from the 2nd printing of the book. In a letter dated Feb 8, 1947, Kaye Miller,
founder of AA in LA, wrote Bill W and said Pat was going to meetings and might
just make it. Nothing else was ever heard of him and he has faded
into AA history.

Hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin

0 -1 0 0
7102 Jay Lawyer
Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? 1/4/2011 6:53:00 PM

A WARNING ABOUT USING WIKIPEDIA uncritically as a source of information about
Alcoholics Anonymous history, from Jay Lawyer:

That is the trouble with using Wikipedia as any kind of source for information.
Anybody can write anything they want and unless somebody comes along to change
it, there it is for people to take as Gospel.
We of Alcoholics Anonymous have enough inaccurate info already, don't need to
add to it.

Jay

___________________________________________

Original Message: A complaint about the Wikipedia article on the Washingtonians
said:

The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders
are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It
doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite.

0 -1 0 0
7103 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: Is Grapevine literature "conference approved"? Is Grapevine literature "conference approved"? 12/25/2010 3:12:00 AM

From Laurie Andrews, Edgar C, and Kimball Rowe

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Each issue of the Grapevine carries this caveat or disclaimer: "Conference
Advisory Action 1986: 'Since each issue of the Grapevine cannot go through the
Conference-approval process, the Conference recognizes the AA Grapevine as the
international journal of Alcoholics Anonymous'."

- - - -

From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com)

The statement was made: "Isn't the Grapevine generally considered to be
conference approved via Concept 3?"

By the lawyerly interpretation assumed in that statement, ANY literature used by
a group (certainly an "element" of AA) could be considered conference-approved .
. .

Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida

- - - -

From: "Kimball Rowe" <roweke@msn.com>
(roweke at msn.com)

I would like to reverse the same question -- shoe on the other foot: If a group
draws a line in the sand for which they will not cross, i.e. "we will not read
from non-conference approved literature" then would not the Grapevine be
"considered" out.

0 -1 0 0
7104 doci333
1942 Letter by Bill W. 1942 Letter by Bill W. 1/14/2011 3:39:00 PM

In "As Bill See's It" page 14, "Newcomer Problem" in a 1942 letter by Bill W. he
writes:

"You can't make a horse drink water if he still prefers beer or is too crazy to
know what he does want. Set a pail of water beside him, tell him how good it is
and why, and leave him alone.

"If people really want to get drunk, there is, so far as I know, no way of
stopping this - so leave them alone and let them get drunk. But don't exclude
them from the water pail, either." 2. LETTER, 1942

Can anyone share the whole letter and any information concerning who the letter
was directed to? Any further info. would be appreciated.

I searched AA History Lovers and the Digital Archives don't go back that far.

Thanks –
Dave G., Illinois

0 -1 0 0
7105 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: 1942 Letter by Bill W. 1942 Letter by Bill W. 1/15/2011 4:03:00 AM

I had a similar query about the letter quoted on page 116 of As Bill Sees It.

My first home group met at a Quaker meeting house and I picked up literature on
display there and began attending Quaker meetings, eventually becoming a member.

A few years ago I wrote to the archivist at GSO asking if there was a copy of
the correspondence which resulted in the As Bill Sees It entry. It seems an AA
member Robert C. wrote to Bill in 1950:

"Dear Bill, I've been a member of AA for the past three years and am doing a
fairly good job. In the meantime I've become interested in the Society of
Friends (Quakers) and I seem to see a great kinship between the two movements.
The Way of Life of both movements seems to fit so well into each other that I
have become greatly interested in knowing how much Quakerism affected not only
the foundation of AA but also what part, if any, it has played to date."

Bill's reply opens with the two paragraphs quoted in Ad Bill Sees It. He then
goes on:

"Though the structure of our AA society was designed only by experience and what
grace God may have given us, I must confess that in this aspect we do bear a
strong resemblance to the Quakers. We, too, speak of a group conscience. Our
leadership is rotating. We have no paid preachers and once the early members
erected the basic principles, the authority seems to flow up through the mass
instead of down from the top. When I wrote the Traditions, I can assure you that
I did not create this state of affairs, I merely reflected what had already
appeared out of the groups."

I believe Lois Wilson attended a Quaker school as a child, and that after Bill
died there was a Quaker-style unprogrammed meeting for worship at Stepping
Stones. I was intrigued to know how Bill knew so much about Quakerism, but the
archivist could shed no light on that.

___________________________________________

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
From: doci333@hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011
Subject: 1942 Letter by Bill W.

In "As Bill See's It" page 14, "Newcomer Problem" in a 1942 letter by Bill W. he
writes:

"You can't make a horse drink water if he still prefers beer or is too crazy to
know what he does want. Set a pail of water beside him, tell him how good it is
and why, and leave him alone.

"If people really want to get drunk, there is, so far as I know, no way of
stopping this - so leave them alone and let them get drunk. But don't exclude
them from the water pail, either." 2. LETTER, 1942

Can anyone share the whole letter and any information concerning who the letter
was directed to? Any further info. would be appreciated.

I searched AA History Lovers and the Digital Archives don't go back that far.

Thanks –
Dave G., Illinois

0 -1 0 0
7106 bikergaryg@aol.com
What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? 1/14/2011 1:33:00 PM

Big Book p. 5: "Gradually things got worse. The house was taken over by the
mortgage holder, my mother-in-law died, my wife and father-in-law became ill."

A friend of mine wrote me and asked: "I was reading the BB with someone
yesterday and p. 5 of Bill's story refers to Lois being sick (it says, 'my wife
got ill'). The person asked me what Lois had ... I had no idea. Do you know?"

Thanks and happy 24.
Kim

0 -1 0 0
7107 royslev
Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major 1/18/2011 3:12:00 AM

I noticed a post by Barefoot Bill of an obituary for Bill Wilson which
identifies his college major as an undergraduate as "engineering." I've heard
Clancy I. refer to Bill as having majored in "electrical engineering." Do we in
fact know for sure that it was engineering, and if so, what kind of engineering
was it?

0 -1 0 0
7108 eric_millman
Re: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? 1/18/2011 6:50:00 AM

In the movie "My Name is Bill W.," I believe Lois had a miscarriage around that
time.

Rick M

0 -1 0 0
7109 Glenn Chesnut
Re: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? 1/18/2011 4:42:00 PM

Message #7106 asked: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book?

We need to look at Big Book p. 4: "My wife began to work in a department store."

As well as looking at Big Book p. 5: "Gradually things got worse. The house was
taken over by the mortgage holder, my mother-in-law died, my wife and
father-in-law became ill."

In this part of the Big Book, Bill W. seems quite possibly to have conflated
events from a number of different years, widely separated, which he arranged
totally out of chronological order. He was NOT a good man with dates. But I may
be being too skeptical here. Can any of our real Bill W. and Lois experts make
better sense out of these events?

Could the reference to Lois' illness on page 5 be talking about her ectopic
pregnancies? But they occurred in 1922 and 1923. Lois didn't start working at
Macy's (page 4) until 1931, implying that the illness referred to on page 5 was
something that occurred a number of years later, if we accept the chronology of
Bill Wilson's account here in pages 4-5 of the Big Book.
_______________________________________

THESE DATES ARE TAKEN FROM:
Arthur S. and Archie M.
"A Narrative Timeline Of AA History"
http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html

1922:

"Summer, Lois experienced two ectopic pregnancies (the first in Jun and the
second in Jul). After the second misfortune, Bill W and Lois were obliged to
face the fact that they would never have children. They applied to the
Spence-Chapin adoption agency but to no result. In later years, they found out
that they were denied the opportunity for adoption due to Bill's drinking. (PIO
67, LR 34, RAA 147-148, NG 315, WPR 59)"

1923:

"May, Lois experienced her third ectopic pregnancy which led to surgical removal
of her ovaries. Bill W was so drunk he did not go to the hospital to see her.
(BW-RT 128, LR 34, RAA 147, BW-FH 37)"

1930:

"Dec, after a binge that started in Montreal and carried him into VT, Lois went
to get Bill W. They finally returned to Clinton St and moved into a room there.
Lois' mother was dying from bone cancer. (PIO 86-87, BW-FH 46)"

"Dec 25, Christmas, Lois' mother died. Bill W, drunk for days beforehand, could
not attend the funeral and stayed drunk for many days after. (SW 30-31, PIO 87,
BW-RT 156, LR 82, BW-FH 46)"

1931:

Bill W was able to work occasionally through 1931, but entered a phase of
helpless drinking. Lois went to work at Macy's, earning $19 a week ($230 today)
and that became their livelihood. (PIO 90, 128, BW-FH 47)
_______________________________________


FROM A.A. COMES OF AGE:

1939:

In AA Comes of Age, page 173, Bill W. says: "Then, on May first [1939], fresh
calamity fell upon 182 Clinton Street. Lois and I had been living in a house
which belonged to her parents before their death. The bank had taken it over and
rented it to us for a nominal sum. The mortgage was so big the bank had found
great difficulty in selling the place, so we had been able to stay there several
years. But at this moment they found a purchaser and we had to get out. From its
four floors the old brick house disgorged its furniture into a moving van. The
warehouse had to pay the mover, since we could not. All our worldly goods were
in hock with the warehouse-man, and they were to stay that way for two years
more. Where could we go?"

0 -1 0 0
7110 J. Lobdell
RE: Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major 1/18/2011 5:51:00 PM

If it was Engineering (and I see no reason to doubt that), it was simply
Engineering, assuming Norwich had the same curriculum in Bill's day as it had
before 1914. (The only major change ca 1915 was the creation of the ROTC Program
after much of the Cadet Corps went off to fight with Pershing in Mexico, and
that certainly had nothing to do with the Engineering program.)

Norwich, like West Point, was and is a military academy: it used to be the case
that all cadets took the same first two years, whatever the major the cadet
chose, and course differentiation by majors came only in junior year and beyond.

Norwich did offer Civil as well as Military Engineering early on (the first
Civil Engineering curriculum in this country, I believe), and now in the 21st
century offers Electrical Engineering as one of three Engineering majors, but
Norwich also now has students that are not part of the Corps of Cadets, which
was not the case in Bill's time and before (including the 19th century).

A lot of the USMA Military Engineers 1838-63 went into the Topographical
Engineers -- Norwich's "Civil" Engineers built permanent roads and bridges (and
lighthouses): they might be used by the Military (and were) but they were Civil
Engineering, not Military.

It may be of interest to some that in the last quarter of the 20th century, one
major firm bearing a name including the word "Electric" constructed a number of
power plants and electronic installations and whole military airports and bases
in an Arab country -- and all the work was done under the aegis of the firm's
public (civil) engineering division. The modern idea that Engineering must be
divided into sub-specialties is (except for the one exception in 1838-63) just
that -- a modern idea.

I don't say Clancy would be wrong -- in fact I think he's right -- in asserting
Bill's interest in electricity (his comments on the mysterious force of
electricity in discussing dependence -- his putatively being hired by Edison as
a research man), but I've been unable to find any indication that the Norwich
Engineering curriculum was subdivided before very recent times. If anyone knows
anything to the contrary, please let me know.

0 -1 0 0
7111 Steven
Group inventories Group inventories 1/18/2011 5:17:00 PM

Greetings everyone. Does anyone have any information on the origins of the AA
Group inventory? I am aware of the traditions checklist and the concept
checklist etc... What did we do before them?

0 -1 0 0
7112 Lawrence Willoughby
Re: Group inventories Group inventories 1/18/2011 10:03:00 PM

To the best of my knowledge the first group inventory was when there was a vote
to withdraw from the Oxford Group.

- - - -

From: Steven <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
Subject: Group inventories
Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011

Greetings everyone. Does anyone have any information on the origins of the AA
Group inventory? I am aware of the traditions checklist and the concept
checklist etc... What did we do before them?

0 -1 0 0
7113 shakey1aa
group inventory group inventory 1/20/2011 10:04:00 AM

The man with the double stigma discussed in tradition 3 before Jimmy B (Ed) may
be the 1st case of group inventory. In Jimmy's story he says the book was
beginning to be written when he 1st came in (1938.) Jimmy's case may have been
the second documented case of a group inventory. I'll be interested to read
about earlier cases of a group inventory.

YIS,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Phila, PA. USA
"going to Montana soon" NAW15

0 -1 0 0
7114 charlie brooke
Early Grapevine editor Joe T. Early Grapevine editor Joe T. 1/19/2011 4:11:00 PM

Greetings group:

Does anyone have any information on Joe Trundle, an early Grapevine editor who
was sent to Virginia to do a 12th Step call?

I am also looking for information about his wife Charlotte, who was a secretary
at the early GSO.

Charliespins

0 -1 0 0
7115 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: group inventory group inventory 1/20/2011 5:33:00 PM

Group Inventory: these are meetings at which members work toward understanding
how well the group is fulfilling its primary purpose.

See section on Group Inventory, p.27, from The AA Group. I think it is Pamphlet
16.

0 -1 0 0
7116 mrpetesplace
Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens Cecil Rose, When Man Listens 1/21/2011 5:05:00 AM

Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man
Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the
AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/

But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate
website: http://WhenManListens.com
________________________________________


Original message #6166 from "mrpetesplace"
<peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)

AAStuff has just added the full text of "When Man Listens" by Cecil Rose, on
http://aastuff.com/ see page http://aastuff.com/whenmanlistens.htm [THIS LINK IS
NO LONGER VALID]

Cecil Rose, When Man Listens (New York: Oxford University Press, 1937).
Dedicated "to the Oxford Group, the growing army of men and women who are
proving afresh for our generation that 'When man listens, God speaks; when man
obeys, God works.'"

0 -1 0 0
7117 jax760
Re: Group inventories Group inventories 1/21/2011 11:58:00 AM

Are we perhaps confusing a group inventory with a group conscience? A group
takes its inventory using a suggested checklist (the Grapevine published one I
believe).

I have never read anything about a "vote" to withdraw from the Oxford Group by
the New York contingent (I assume this is what the writer refers to?). I would
be interested to see a reference or source for the statement? Akron withdrew in
1939, but there were many instances of documented group conscience by then.

My understanding of the first recorded instance of "group conscience" is when
Charlie Towns offered Bill a job at Towns as a "lay therapist" in 1936. The
group got together and convinced Bill this was not in the best interest of the
fledgling fellowship (the drunk squad of the Oxford Group). I believe you will
find this documented in both Pass It On and A.A. Comes of Age.

God Bless

John B

0 -1 0 0
7118 diazeztone
Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens Cecil Rose, When Man Listens 1/22/2011 10:21:00 PM

I long ago constructed a nice page about this book at:

http://www.aabibliography.com/cecil_rose_when_man_listens_oxford_group_pamphlet.\
html


There is a free pdf of this book which can be downloaded there.

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com
__________________________________________


"mrpetesplace" <peter@...> wrote:
>
> Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man
Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the
AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/
>
> But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate
website: http://WhenManListens.com

0 -1 0 0
7119 diazeztone
Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri 1/22/2011 11:52:00 PM

Does anybody know who Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri is?

See http://www.authorsden.com/ae/viewworks_all.asp?Authorid=81922

Mr Palmeri seems to be reprinting a lot of Oxford Group books. Was he the one
making the cecil rose book available on aastuff.com??

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com
______________________________________


"mrpetesplace" <peter@...> wrote:
>
> Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man
Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the
AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/
>
> But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate
website: http://WhenManListens.com

0 -1 0 0
7120 Kevin Short
Re: Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri 1/23/2011 5:24:00 PM

There is information about Tuchy in his

http://www.healing-habits.com/

web site.

Kevin Short
______________________________________


-----Original Message-----
From: "diazeztone" <eztone@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011
Subject: Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri

Does anybody know who Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri is?

See http://www.authorsden.com/ae/viewworks_all.asp?Authorid=81922

Mr Palmeri seems to be reprinting a lot of Oxford Group books. Was he the one
making the cecil rose book available on aastuff.com??

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com

0 -1 0 0
7121 Robert Stonebraker
Photos of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves Photos of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves 1/23/2011 11:55:00 PM

I am trying to find pictures of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, but am
having no luck in the finding any.

Any photos will be much appreciated. Thanks!

Bob Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>
(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

212 SW 18th Street
Richmond, IN 47374
(765) 935-0130

0 -1 0 0
7122 Norm The Tinman
ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH 1/24/2011 12:49:00 PM

Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 --
in Miami, Florida.

A sad day for the fellowship for sure -- but I know
I will be grateful to him as long as I'm on this
earth.

Norm L.

0 -1 0 0
7123 shakey1aa@yahoo.com
Re: Group inventories Group inventories 1/24/2011 12:00:00 PM

The question is not relevant. The time we are talking about had no GSO, there
were only a couple groups. Thank God there was no service structure then to
louse it up.

Shakes Mike Gwirtz
Phila,PA USA

-----Original message-----
From: jax760 <jax760@yahoo.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 19:50:28 GMT+00:00
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Group inventories

Are we perhaps confusing a group inventory with a group conscience? A group
takes its inventory using a suggested checklist (the Grapevine published one
I believe).

I have never read anything about a "vote" to withdraw from the Oxford Group
by the New York contingent (I assume this is what the writer refers to?). I
would be interested to see a reference or source for the statement? Akron
withdrew in 1939, but there were many instances of documented group
conscience by then.

My understanding of the first recorded instance of "group conscience" is
when Charlie Towns offered Bill a job at Towns as a "lay therapist" in 1936.
The group got together and convinced Bill this was not in the best interest
of the fledgling fellowship (the drunk squad of the Oxford Group). I believe
you will find this documented in both Pass It On and A.A. Comes of Age.

God Bless

John B

0 -1 0 0
7124 Sherry C. Hartsell
RE: ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH 1/24/2011 5:41:00 PM

AMEN!

sherry

- - - -

From: Norm The Tinman
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011
Subject: ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W'S DEATH

Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 --
in Miami, Florida.

A sad day for the fellowship for sure -- but I know
I will be grateful to him as long as I'm on this
earth.

Norm L.

0 -1 0 0
7125 George Cleveland
ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH 1/24/2011 11:30:00 PM

Wasn't it also Bill & Lois' wedding anniversary?

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator: Yes, you're right, it sure was. "Jan 24, 1918 spurred
by rumor that Bill W might soon go overseas, he and Lois were married at the
Swedenborgian Church in Brooklyn, NY. Lois’ brother Rogers Burnham was best
man."

From the Narrative Timeline of AA History at
http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html

- - - -

> From: Norm The Tinman
>
> Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 --
> in Miami, Florida.

0 -1 0 0
7126 Jim M
Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens Cecil Rose, When Man Listens 1/25/2011 2:00:00 AM

OK, I reckon I'll put my two cents in. Cecil Rose, When Man Listens is also
available from silkworth.net:

http://www.silkworth.net/cecil_rose/cr_tablecontents.html


WHEN MAN LISTENS
by Cecil Rose

Everyone can listen to God.
When man listens, God speaks.
When man obeys, God works.
When men are changed, nations change.

TO

THE OXFORD GROUP
THE GROWING ARMY OF MEN AND WOMEN
WHO ARE PROVING AFRESH FOR OUR GENERATION
THAT

When man listens, God speaks;
When man obeys, God works.



Yours in service,
Jim M,
Go to silkworth.net >>> Visit us on Facebook!

0 -1 0 0
7127 Robert Stonebraker
Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 1/27/2011 3:25:00 PM

In late summer, 1934, Ebby Thacher faced confinement at a Brattleboro, VT,
mental institution after another drunken episode. However, Judge Graves
released him to the care of several Oxford Groupers: Rowland Hazard in
particular.

After closing the large Thacher home at 110 Taconic Ave., in Manchester, VT.,
Ebby took up residence in Shep Cornell's Manhattan apartment for a short
period, then moved into either the doubtlessly plush Oxford Group's Parish House
(Calvary House), or perhaps instead, a rather dismal Mission several blocks
away.

Question:

. . . . During this period, did Ebby reside at Calvary House, near 21st and
Park Ave, and attend meetings at the mission?

. . . . or did Ebby actually live IN Calvary Mission at 346 East
23rd Street?

I have read reports of both circumstances, but I would appreciate reliable
verification.

Thank you.

Bob S.
____________________

PS -- further question -- is the Calvary Mission still in existence?

Bob Stonebraker
212 SW 18th Street
Richmond, IN 47374
(765) 935-0130

0 -1 0 0
7128 Ben Hammond
Who was asked to work for a liquor trade association ? Who was asked to work for a liquor trade association ? 1/28/2011 8:07:00 PM

Howdy from Tulsa .... Who was the AA asked to work for a liquor trade
association mentioned in the 12 X 12 on pages 157-159 ... And which association
was asking ??

Thanks for your great group...Old Ben, Tulsa OK

Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond
5126 S. St. Louis Av
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105
918 313 4059

- - - -

From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

There are partial parallels to this in the story of Marty Mann and the National
Council on Alcoholism. See the following two books (both available from
amazon.com):

Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady
of Alcoholics Anonymous (2001). An outstanding biography of one of our most
important early AA leaders.

Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism
(2003). Describes how the Hughes Act was passed and financed (the basis of the
modern legal treatment of alcoholics and the structure of most modern alcoholism
treatment centers).
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html

Nancy Olson's book told how Marty Mann was using grants from national alcohol
industry associations to help support the National Council on Alcoholism for
quite a few years, and had representatives of those groups on the NCA's board.
Marty finally quit accepting money from them (and kicked them off the board)
only fairly late in her career, after she began to realize the increasing
possibilities of having the NCA's message seriously distorted by the liquor
interests.

Why increasing? For a number of years after AA was first founded, the organized
liquor interests loved AA, because they could use it to battle against the
prohibitionist groups who wanted to ban all alcohol sales in the United States.
Look at AA, they could say, the problem isn't alcohol, it's the relatively small
percentage of the population who are alcoholics.

But once the prohibitionist movement pretty much died off in the U.S., the
organized liquor trade began attacking and undercutting AA in every way they
could think of. A large percentage of the alcohol sales in the United States go
to practicing alcoholics, who consume enormously more alcohol per person than
normal social drinkers.

The organized liquor industry's advertising people are behind the "red wine
keeps you from having heart attacks" articles that appear periodically in
American newspapers and magazines. These ignore the fact that even just one
glass of red wine a day raises your chances of dying from cancer of various
kinds -- colon, breast, etc. -- and of dying from many other things -- liver
disease, etc. -- to such a degree that, as an important Irish study showed, it
raises the overall death rate, not lowers it. The Irish study showed that one
drink a day for younger people (two drinks a day for older people), will take a
year off your life span, statistically speaking.

Also the totally false claims that modern AA "only has a 5% success rate" or
that "it has been proven that the same percentage of alcoholics quit drinking
who simply attempt to quit on their own." Also all of the "A.A. is a cult"
anti-AA propaganda was egged on by them. Both are totally bogus claims, but the
organized liquor industry has deep pockets when it comes to saturating the media
with disinformation. Even some of our more naive AA people get sucked into
believing some of this, and actually help the liquor industry publicize these
claims.

Nancy Olson's book still ought to be "must" reading for anyone who wants to
seriously understand how politics, along with the struggle for money and power
(where large numbers of psychiatrists and psychotherapists have sometimes been
as anti-AA as the liquor industry), has distorted what Americans think they know
about AA and alcoholism and the best methods of treating alcoholism.

0 -1 0 0
7129 Cindy Miller
Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe 1/29/2011 11:19:00 AM

Does anyone have a link to that picture of Bill W. with the hole in
his shoe? (Feet up on the Office desk -- that's why you can see it.)

Thanks...
-cm

0 -1 0 0
7130 jax760
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 1/28/2011 5:31:00 PM

From John B. (jax760) and Richard Dillon

- - - -

From John B. <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

According to Mel B. in "EBBY: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W." Ebby lived at the
Mission.

The mission closed its doors for good in 1936.

Best Regards,

John B

- - - -

From: Richard Dillon <dillonr9@yahoo.com>

According to pg 115 in Pass It On, Ebby stayed at the 23rd St. mission which,
last time I checked in 2008, is a adult movie store!

Rich D.
Astoria N.Y

0 -1 0 0
7131 Kevin Short
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 1/28/2011 8:01:00 AM

From Kevin Short, Chris B., and Alex H.

- - - -

From: Kevin Short <kshort@oxmicro.com>
(kshort at oxmicro.com)


There is now a McDonald's at the former location of the Calvary Mission at 346
East 23rd Street. Next door is an upscale residence.

The Calvary Church (at Gramercy Park) has undergone recent renovations,
specifically in the hall where Sam Shoemaker held gatherings. There is now a
Thrift Shop in the basement, where the Oxford Group headquarters were located.

Kevin S.

- - - -

From: "Chris B" <beachbuddah@gmail.com>
(beachbuddah at gmail.com)

I can't comment on Ebby's residence, but I can in response to your curiosity
about the Mission at Calvary. While the parish no longer has their homeless
shelter, they still offer a weekly soup kitchen and also a weekly food pantry. I
both visited their website and also gave them a call; that's the info I got.

Love and service,

Chris B.

- - - -

From: "Alex H." <odat@utj.org> (odat at utj.org)

346 East 23rd Street: you can look this up with Google Earth and see a picture
of the area at street level. It looks like businesses at street level with
condos above. The buildings look reasonably modern, no earlier than 1960.

"Near 21st and Park Ave"....

Calvary Episcopal Church (The Parish of Calvary-St. George's) 277 Park Avenue
South, New York. It is still there and it looks old enough. Apparently it has
merged with another church (St. George's Church) and they hold their services
together at the Park Avenue location (The Calvary). Here is the web site...

http://www.calvarystgeorges.org/

Here is a link that describes church organs but also notes the history of the
church and names it as Rev. Shoemaker's church where the Oxford Groups began and
the small description mentions AA ... "Under the Rev. Samuel Moor Shoemaker, III
(1893-1963), the Calvary Church Mission in the Bowery became the virtual
American headquarters for the Oxford Group during the 1930s. From this group
came Alcoholics Anonymous."

http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/CalvaryEpis.html

As a side note, Eric Metaxas attends the church now. He came to lecture here in
Texas in mid-January, 2011 talking about his book, a biography of Rev.
Bonhoeffer, of one of the men who tried to assassinate Hitler. (Recall the
recent movie, "Valkyrie.") I am reading the book now. It is entitled,
"Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy - A Righteous Gentile vs. the Third
Reich". Looking in my Kindle edition of the book, I see the Calvary Church on
Park Avenue is mentioned as the location where Rev. Buchman (the founder of the
Oxford Groups) gave his most unfortunate remark regarding Hitler. (See Kindle
location 5334-36, or so. I am not used to citing Kindle locations.)...

"Later in August Buchman made his tragic remark: "I thank heaven for a
man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the
anti-Christ of Communism." It was a throwaway comment made in an
interview with the New York World Telegram from his office at Calvary
Church on Park Avenue and Twenty-first Street, and it did not reflect
his wider thinking on the subject. Still, it illustrates how easily even the
most serious Christians were initially taken in by Hitler's conservative
pseudo-Christian propaganda."

As I recall my reading (On the Tail of a Comet: The Life of Frank Buchman by
Garth Lean), at the time, Rev. Frank Buchman was attempting to convince one of
Hitler's henchmen (was it Goebbels?) to become a Christian. As it was portrayed
in this biography Buchman was misled by Hitler's close adviser to seem as if he
was interested in converting. This caused Buchman to soften his tone toward
Hitler at first.

The Bonhoeffer biography makes it clear that misleading Christians into thinking
Hitler was pro-Christian was an early tactic of Hitler and Bonhoeffer lamented
that such a prominent Christian as Rev. Buchman was taken in by this lie, though
many Christians were at first. Bonhoeffer was the notable exception rather than
the rule.

BTW, I am a Jew but I tend to defend Christians using the logic of the tragic
poem of Pastor Martin Niemoller... "First They Came"

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

So now I speak out for the Christians in the hope that they will speak out for
me if the time should come.

Alex H.

0 -1 0 0
7132 ricktompkins
RE: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe 1/29/2011 10:36:00 PM

Hi Cindy, that is a great shot of Bill, but I don't know of any links.

I have a photo which I took of this photo; it was taken at the GSO Archives. I'm
sure the photo remains on one of the walls of the first vestibule.

Rick, Illinois
__________________________________

From GC the moderator: unfortunately, the Yahoo group system which we use for
the AAHistoryLovers strips off all attachments before they arrive on our Pending
Message board. It also does not allow us to add attachments to messages which we
post.
__________________________________

From: Cindy Miller
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011
Subject: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe

Does anyone have a link to that picture of Bill W. with the hole in
his shoe? (Feet up on the Office desk -- that's why you can see it.)
Thanks...
-cm

0 -1 0 0
7133 Robert Stonebraker
New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book 1/30/2011 4:44:00 PM

I find a substantial similarity in the style of writing between Hank Parkhurst's
personal story, "The Unbeliever," and Fitz Mayo's personal story, "Our Southern
Friend."

It is known that Jim Scott helped edit the Akron stories, so I wonder whether
some of the New York personal stories were also edited by a professional writer
before entering the manuscript. I see where some stories were edited after the
manuscript was assembled in February of 1939, but I mean before (or as) the
Manuscript was first assembled -- before it was sent out for suggestions.

Does anyone know?

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
7134 Tom Hickcox
Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Reinhold Niebuhr Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Reinhold Niebuhr 1/29/2011 6:45:00 PM

At 07:01 1/28/2011, Kevin Short wrote:
>
>The Bonhoeffer biography makes it clear that misleading Christians
>into thinking Hitler was pro-Christian was an early tactic of Hitler
>and Bonhoeffer lamented that such a prominent Christian as Rev.
>Buchman was taken in by this lie, though many Christians were at
>first. Bonhoeffer was the notable exception rather than the rule.
>

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was close to Reinhold Niebuhr, the author of The Serenity
Prayer. He stayed with the Niebuhrs in New York City before he returned to Nazi
Germany to his fate. Bonhoeffer's sister, Christine, married Hans von Dohnanyi;
they were the parents of Christoph, a well-known conductor.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
7135 john wikelius
Pamphlet Project Volume 5 Pamphlet Project Volume 5 2/4/2011 4:12:00 AM

I have found a few more pamphlets that I have not seen or heard about yet. I am
looking for date of initial pamphlet and picture of the cover of each listed
below:
 
==================================
What about the alcoholic employee
 
medicine looks at alcoholics anonymous

The society of Alcoholics Anonymous
 
AA a uniquely American phenomena   (Fortune Mag)
 
Respecting Money
 
your general service
 
your role in the general service conference
 
guide to a.a.
 
our critics can be our benefactors
 
suggestions for improving aa's relationship with the medical profession and the
community
==================================

Working on Volume 5, "What we used to look like --- What we look like now."
 
Thanks in advance for your interest.

John Wikelius 
<justjohn1431946@yahoo.com> (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
7136 theanonymous752
The four paragraphs added to Bill''s story The four paragraphs added to Bill''s story 1/31/2011 8:21:00 PM

Since getting the recent publication "The book that started it all," I have
been intrigued by the four paragraphs from Bill's story that were added to the
original typed manuscript. These four paragraphs, from page 12 of the current
edition, are present at the beginning of the manuscript in hand written form.

What I found most interesting is that these paragraphs are NOT in Bill's
handwriting. They look to be in Henry Parkhurst's handwriting.

Many thanks to Old Bill and John Barton for their posts (6930 and 4377) on this
topic. Does anyone know any more about this? Would appreciate any information.

0 -1 0 0
7137 Bill
Re: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe 1/31/2011 5:43:00 AM

It's possible to send a link to your images (if you want to make them available
on the AAHistoryLovers with http://imageshack.us/

Greetings

William (Belgium)

- - - -

> From GC the moderator: unfortunately, the Yahoo group system which we use for
the AAHistoryLovers strips off all attachments before they arrive on our Pending
Message board. It also does not allow us to add attachments to messages which we
post.

0 -1 0 0
7138 LES COLE
RE: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe 1/31/2011 11:46:00 AM

The Hole-in-shoe topic is a good reminder about the conditions during the Great
Depression. Many people wore shoes with such holes. New shoes (or even getting
them re-soled) was a luxury less important than buying food.

I was a child during the Great Depression and had shoes with such holes, all the
way through to the foot. I (and my brother) used to put pieces of cardboard on
the inside to protect our foot, then change the cardboard frequently as it, too,
wore through.

Fortunately, my father was a millwright and worked in factories which used many
machines driven by long, heavy, leather belts. Those belts were very durable but
did wear out beyond repair sometimes. He brought home pieces of such belts
(about 1/4 inch thick occasionally) and cut pieces to fit our shoe soles. These
were nailed onto the shoe-uppers around the edge as cobblers still do today.

There also were rubber, pre-sized shoe sole patches for sale which could be
glued on the the worn bottoms. (unfortunately, the glue was often not of good
quality, and after a few days might become loose, resulting in a "floppy walk"
until again repaired.

Les C
Colorado Springs, CO







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
7139 LES COLE
RE: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book 1/31/2011 11:13:00 AM

Since Parkhurst, Fitz, Bill (and others) were all close friends at that time in
NYC, perhaps they actually sort of collaborated on their writings.

From my reading (and looking at the marginal notes, etc) of the newly published
"original printer copy", I think it is very likely that Hank had a major role in
final clearance of the manuscript as it went to the printer. He had more
business experience than Bill, and I assume the others were happy with his role.
(Note his initials on each page.)

Also, I can imagine that the word-by-word review was done by the "clerical
type" folks after Bill added his ideas as to conceptual meanings.

We should remember that many people had sent their comments ... then the folks
in NYC must have entered those comments upon their working draft. Therefore, the
handwriting analysis for everything does not mean that the writer had those
thoughts ... they were simply the scribe for what had been received from many
other folks.

Les C
Colorado Springs, Colorado

0 -1 0 0
7140 diazeztone
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 1/31/2011 11:44:00 PM

Was not the site of the Calvary Mission the site of the original Waters Street
Mission??

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Kevin Short <kshort@...> wrote:
>
> From Kevin Short, Chris B., and Alex H.
>
> - - - -
>
> From: Kevin Short <kshort@...>
> (kshort at oxmicro.com)
>
>
> There is now a McDonald's at the former location of the Calvary Mission at 346
East 23rd Street. Next door is an upscale residence.
>
> The Calvary Church (at Gramercy Park) has undergone recent renovations,
specifically in the hall where Sam Shoemaker held gatherings. There is now a
Thrift Shop in the basement, where the Oxford Group headquarters were located.
>
> Kevin S.
>
> - - - -
>
> From: "Chris B" <beachbuddah@...>
> (beachbuddah at gmail.com)
>
> I can't comment on Ebby's residence, but I can in response to your curiosity
about the Mission at Calvary. While the parish no longer has their homeless
shelter, they still offer a weekly soup kitchen and also a weekly food pantry. I
both visited their website and also gave them a call; that's the info I got.
>
> Love and service,
>
> Chris B.
>
> - - - -
>
> From: "Alex H." <odat@...> (odat at utj.org)
>
> 346 East 23rd Street: you can look this up with Google Earth and see a picture
of the area at street level. It looks like businesses at street level with
condos above. The buildings look reasonably modern, no earlier than 1960.
>
> "Near 21st and Park Ave"....
>
> Calvary Episcopal Church (The Parish of Calvary-St. George's) 277 Park Avenue
South, New York. It is still there and it looks old enough. Apparently it has
merged with another church (St. George's Church) and they hold their services
together at the Park Avenue location (The Calvary). Here is the web site...
>
> http://www.calvarystgeorges.org/
>
> Here is a link that describes church organs but also notes the history of the
church and names it as Rev. Shoemaker's church where the Oxford Groups began and
the small description mentions AA ... "Under the Rev. Samuel Moor Shoemaker, III
(1893-1963), the Calvary Church Mission in the Bowery became the virtual
American headquarters for the Oxford Group during the 1930s. From this group
came Alcoholics Anonymous."
>
> http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/CalvaryEpis.html
>

0 -1 0 0
7141 diazeztone
Agatha Christie, Miss Marple, 1930 Oxford Group mystery story Agatha Christie, Miss Marple, 1930 Oxford Group mystery story 1/31/2011 11:52:00 PM

Slightly off topic, but I found an Agatha Christie Miss Marple 1930 oxford group
mystery story called "Tape Measure Murder" from the book 13 clues for Miss
Marple (Dodds and Mead, 1966).

She evidently had another one unpublished:

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/2886

It was called "The Capture of Cerberus"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208212/Unseen-60-years-Mail-proudly-pre\
sent-Agatha-Christies-lost-masterpiece-The-Capture-Cerberus.html


==========================================
The Capture Of Cerberus (she wrote a completely different short story with the
same title in 1947) revolves around a dictator called August Hertzlein, who is
clearly Adolf Hitler.

In the course of the plot, Christie expresses the naive hope that Hitler could
have been converted to Christianity and begun preaching love and peace. There
really were people in the Thirties who believed this. One of them was Frank
Buchman, founder of the Oxford Group, a hugely influential movement which has
gone under various titles, including Moral Rearmament and Festival Of Light.

The story was found in her longhand notebooks by John Curran, a Christie
enthusiast and author in his own right.
==========================================

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com

0 -1 0 0
7142 diazeztone
More on Agatha Christie, Tape Measure Murder, Oxford Group More on Agatha Christie, Tape Measure Murder, Oxford Group 2/1/2011

you can read the entire story online at Tape Measure Murder:

http://books.google.com/books?id=uloAmt3O63MC&lpg=PA127&ots=fJ5zziCVll&dq=agatha\
%20christie%20oxford%20group&pg=PA115#v=onepage&q&f=false


Short link http://tiny.cc/christi_tape , scroll to page.

ld pierce
www.aabibliography.com

0 -1 0 0
7143 Jo Jo
The list of AA is not The list of AA is not 2/4/2011 11:55:00 PM

Does anyone know where the list of "AA is not" can be found ?

Years John Mears used to read it at the start of each meeting up in Brooksville.
I think it was out of the Grapevine. Any help would be appreciated .....

Thanks Joe M
<jmastromar@aol.com> (jmastromar at aol.com)

0 -1 0 0
7144 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Pamphlet Project Volume 5 Pamphlet Project Volume 5 2/4/2011 7:51:00 PM

John, is this for some book or other publication?

shakey mike

- - - -

In a message dated 2/4/2011 5:36:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
justjohn1431946@yahoo.com writes:

I have found a few more pamphlets that I have not seen or heard about yet. I am
looking for date of initial pamphlet and picture of the cover of each listed
below:

+What about the alcoholic employee
+medicine looks at alcoholics anonymous
+The society of Alcoholics Anonymous
+AA a uniquely American phenomena (Fortune Mag)
+Respecting Money
+your general service
+your role in the general service conference
+guide to a.a.
+our critics can be our benefactors
+suggestions for improving aa's relationship with the medical profession and the
community

Working on Volume 5, "What we used to look like -- What we look like now."

John Wikelius

0 -1 0 0
7145 john wikelius
Re: Pamphlet Project Volume 5 Pamphlet Project Volume 5 2/5/2011 10:51:00 PM

This is a series I have been compiling for several years.
volume one distilled factoids is aa books their dates and printings
volume two alanon and alcoholism
volume three grapevine
volume four magazines associated with alcoholism, prohibition, temperance etc.
includes cover art, date and title of article.  volume five is pamphlets.
____________________________________________

--- On Fri, 2/4/11, Shakey1aa@aol.com <Shakey1aa@aol.com> wrote:

John, is this for some book or other publication?

shakey mike

0 -1 0 0
7146 John Barton
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 2/5/2011 6:01:00 PM

The Men Who Came to Believe

"Samuel Hopkins Hadley took over as Superintendent of the McAuley Rescue Mission
at 316 Water Street in 1886. From that time until his death in 1906 he helped
convert hundreds, if not thousands, of hopeless drunks. Sam's son, Henry
Harrison Hadley II, named after Sam's brother Coronal Henry Harrison Hadley,
would also sober up and be converted after his father's death. Harry Hadley
would later corroborate with Sam Shoemaker in opening the Calvary Mission on
23rd Street in Manhattan and become its first superintendent. At The Calvary
Mission both Ebby Thacher and Bill Wilson would separately answer calls to come
to the rail, kneel at the mercy seat, and experience the Power of conversion." -
Excerpt from The Golden Road of Devotion

John Barton

- - - -

Was not the site of the Calvary Mission the site of the original Waters Street
Mission??

LD Pierce
www.aabibliography.com

0 -1 0 0
7147 S Sommers
The list of AA is not The list of AA is not 2/5/2011 10:19:00 PM

From S Sommers, Laurence Holbrook, G.C. the
moderator, Azor521, and Gary Becktell

- - - -

From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com> (scmws at yahoo.com)
>>also from: "Kimball Rowe" <roweke@msn.com> (roweke at msn.com)

There is a list in P-42 A Brief Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous called "What does
AA NOT do?" It lists ten things starting with:

1. AA does not run membership drives....

This list on pages 10 and 11 of the pamphlet is the closest thing I know to an
"AA is not."

Thanks for everything.

Sam S in Elkhart, Indiana

- - - -

From: "Laurence Holbrook" <email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at
LaurenceHolbrook.com)

AAWS has a pamphlet "Information on A.A." - WHAT A.A. IS AND ISN'T -
Information on Alcoholics Anonymous

What A.A. Does Not Do
A.A. does not:
1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover
2. Solicit members
3. Engage in or sponsor research
4. Keep attendance records or case histories
5. Join "councils" of social agencies
6. Follow up or try to control its members
7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses
8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any
medical or psychiatric treatment
9. Offer religious services or host/sponsor retreats.
10. Engage in education about alcohol
11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or
social services
12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling
13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A.
sources
14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials,
social agencies, employers, etc.

It's available here, if this is what you are looking for:

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/catalog.cfm?origpage=11&product=84

Also as a PDF on that page -

Hope this helps

Larry

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator: there's a copy of the list on the leaflet called "A.A.
at a glance," which can be found at
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/f-1_AAataGlance.pdf

What A.A. Does Not Do
A.A. does not: Keep membership records or case histories.
. . engage in or support research. . . join “councils”
or social agencies (although A.A. members,
groups and service offices frequently cooperate with
them). . . follow up or try to control its members. . .
make medical or psychiatric prognoses or dispense
medicines or psychiatric advise. . . provide drying-out
or nursing services or sanitariums. . . offer religious
services. . . provide housing, food, clothing, jobs,
money, or other welfare or social services. . . provide
domestic or vocational counseling. . . provide letters
of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials,
social agencies, employers, etc.

- - - -

From: Azor521@aol.com
>>also from "Gary Becktell" <gk@kitcarson.net>

You might check these sites:

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/f-2_InfoonAA1.pdf
gives a fourteen-item list:

What A.A. Does Not Do
A.A. does not:
1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover
2. Solicit members
3. Engage in or sponsor research
4. Keep attendance records or case histories
5. Join “councils” of social agencies
6. Follow up or try to control its members
7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses
8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any
medical or psychiatric treatment
9. Offer religious services or host/sponsor retreats.
10. Engage in education about alcohol
11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social
services
12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling
13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A.
sources
14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials,
social agencies, employers, etc.

http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie/opencontent/default.asp?itemid=13&section=Abou\
t+Us

gives a ten-item list:

What AA Does Not Do

1. Solicit membership or try to persuade anyone to join A.A. who does not
want to.
2. Keep membership records or case histories.
3. Engage in or sponsor research.
4. Join counselling or social agencies, although A.A. members frequently
co-operate with them.
5. Make medical or psychological diagnosis or prognosis.
6. Provide drying out or nursing services, hospitalisation, drugs or any
medical or psychiatric treatment.
7. Engage in education or propaganda about alcohol.
8. Provide housing, clothes, food, jobs, money or other welfare or social
services.
9. Provide domestic counselling.
10. Accept money for its service or any money from non A.A. sources.


____________________________________________

Original question was from: Jo Jo
<jmastromar@aol.com> (jmastromar at aol.com)
Date: Friday, February 4, 2011

Does anyone know where the list of "AA is not" can be found?

Years John Mears used to read it at the start of each meeting up in Brooksville.
I think it was out of the Grapevine. Any help would be appreciated .....

Thanks Joe M

0 -1 0 0
7148 Dale
Re: The list of AA is not -- a list from the Grapevine The list of AA is not -- a list from the Grapevine 2/6/2011 1:08:00 PM

Joe, found this on a site after a google search and a few minutes of wading
through "other stuff." Is this the list you recall being read? The site
attributes it to the Grapevine (January 1991). To the site owner's credit they
sought permission from and give credit to the Grapevine.

Best regards,

Dale P, 6-5-87,
Longmont CO
________________________________________

WHAT AA IS NOT

1. AA is not an institutional clearing program. It does not promise that we will
receive suspended sentences, probations, or paroles. AA does not promise
conditional releases, stays of proceedings, or the early releases from prisons
or hospitals.

2. AA is not a "dating game" nor is it a lonely hearts club or a place to find a
temporary or permanent lover.

3. AA is not an employment agency or manpower training program. It does not
promise that we'll all find jobs, get rich, or even become financially solvent.

4. AA is not a charitable organization like the welfare system or the Salvation
Army. It doesn't promise that we'll be loaned money or given cigarettes. AA is
not a bank or a credit union, and is not set up to provide funds for anyone.

5. AA is not a church program or a religious organization (although many groups
rent church spaces to hold their meetings.) AA does not force religion down
anyone's throat. It does encourage us to develop and nourish individual
spiritual ways here and now, but it doesn't demand that we believe anything.
Saving souls and making converts is not the purpose of AA.

6. AA does not promise that we'll never be hurt or feel pain. When AA talks
about serenity, it is not talking about the absence of calamity but peace of
heart, mind and spirit in the midst of calamity. AA is not saying that we'll
have no more problems; it's saying that we'll be given what we need to deal
with, and go through, those problems. The absence of troubles is not the purpose
of AA.

Reprinted by permission of: AA Grapevine
1991 Grapevine Inc. January edition

0 -1 0 0
7149 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 2/8/2011 4:09:00 PM

The below has Bill W talking about going down 23rd Street and going to the
mission. So I think it leaves 316 Waters Street out of any ties to Bill Wilson
at the time he was drinking in 1934.

Wilson's first visit to Calvary Mission is described in the book "Alcoholics
Anonymous Comes of Age" as follows:

"One day, while feeling pretty maudlin, I got a great idea. I figured it was
time I did some religious investigation on my own hook. Remembering that Ebby,
a old drinking friend of mine, had been lodged by members of the Oxford Group at
Sam Shoemaker's Calvary Church Mission. I thought I would go and see what they
did down there. I left the subway at Fourth Ave. and 23rd St. It was a good
long walk along 23rd St., so I began stopping in bars. I spent most of the
afternoon in bars and forgot all about the Mission. At nightfall I found myself
in excited conversation in a bar with a Finn named Alec. He said he had been a
sailmaker and a fisherman in the old country. I thought again of the Mission.
Over there I would find fishers of men. Oddly enough it seemed like a wonderful
idea."

"I sold Alec on coming along and soon we reeled in the front door of the
Mission. Tex Francisco, an ex-alky in charge was right there to meet us. He
not only ran the place, he proposed to run us out of it! This made us quite
sore as we thought of our good intentions."

"Just then Ebby turned up grinning. He said, 'What about a plate of beans?'
After the food, Alec and I had slightly clearer heads. Ebby told us there would
be a meeting in the Mission pretty soon. Would we like to go? Certainly we
would go; that's why we were there. The three of us were soon sitting on one
of those hard wooden benches that filled the place. I had never seen a Mission
before, and I shivered a little when I looked at the derelict audience. There
was a smell of sweat and alcohol. I could well imagine how much suffering was
represented in this gathering."

AA Comes of Age, as quoted in:
http://www.examiner.com/addiction-in-baltimore/baltimore-born-reverend-dr-sam-sh\
oemaker-has-ties-to-local-treatment-center-and-aa-beginnings

___________________________________________

The waters street mission was at 316 Waters St., see below:

http://www.correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/mcauley/mcauley.html

0 -1 0 0
7150 last_town
Re: The list of AA is not The list of AA is not 2/9/2011 11:02:00 AM

This information is also found in The AA Group pamphlet (P16)

http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?category=4&product=41

0 -1 0 0
7151 JoeA
Re: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book 2/10/2011 5:33:00 AM

I with I had the memory I once had, but I was told that Parkhurst re-wrote
several bits of other people's stories in the first edition, and that it caused
some friction in the New York group. But I cannot remember the source of that
tidbit. Perhaps someone here has the reference.

0 -1 0 0
7152 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Re: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book 2/10/2011 4:04:00 PM

Below taken from:
http://www.aabibliography.com/historybb.htm
(Home: http://www.aabibliography.com/index.html )

A History of The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous
Written by Donald B.
Copied by permission.
(Minor editing by Lyle P. and Byron B.)

The main text was completed, and as was the custom in those days, many books had
a section of personal stories, such as Science and Health by Mary Baker Eddy,
Twice Born Men, For Sinners Only, and The Changed Life.

The New York stories were very slow coming in. Hank and Bill tried editing them,
polishing and occasionally rewriting them, which was probably a mistake. An
alcoholic has pride in his own story, drunk or sober, and they felt their
stories should not be tampered with.

Meanwhile in Akron, Dr. Bob had sobered up a newspaper writer named Jim Scott,
who was helping the boys from Akron write their stories. Scott was born in
Australia, and graduated from the University of Glasgow, then came to America
shortly before World War I. He had worked for a time as a reporter for a
Pittsburgh newspaper, then held a series of jobs, losing most of them because of
drunkenness. After service in the Canadian Army, he came to Akron in 1919 as a
reporter on Goodyear Tire's Wingfoot Clan, advancing to editor, but resigning in
1926 because of drinking problems. In 1930, he began to trade and sell books to
support his drinking, opening a shop that soon failed. He then loaded a car with
books and traveled around the country selling them to libraries and historical
societies. Job after job, finally he landed a job with the Federal Writer's
Project, and edited the first edition of the Texas Federal Writer's Project
Book. When he finished that project, a friend put him on a bus to Akron, where
he arrived drunk. Scott took his last drink in 1937.

Nineteen of the stories in the first edition came from Akron. Obvious that the
greatest assets of alcoholics in helping others recover was their personal
stories, this constituted over half of the text. This created a big problem in
Akron because many of the Akronites did not want the book printed. Bill D., AA
number three, did not agree with the book project and would not allow his story
to be used. It was not until the second edition in 1955 that Bill D.'s story was
first printed. Bill Wilson traveled to Akron, interviewed Bill D., and
personally wrote the story. Scott worked with the drunks on their stories and
helped rewrite them. Sue Smith-Windows was going to Business College at the time
and typed some of the Akron stories.

In his book, which is now owned by one of my friends, Archie Towbridge, the
first member in Detroit, writes, I write my story in the small hours of the
morning, sometime in late December or early January, 1939, just ahead of the
printer's deadline. I had been sober four months. The story says six months as
due time was allowed for publication. My perspective was very limited and the
story was unduly brief. Sixteen years later, I was asked to rewrite it for the
first new edition. Archie also writes, To the best of my knowledge, this copy is
one of the first hundred copies to be bound. The reason only one hundred were
bound was that Works Publishing Company did not have any money to pay the
printer!

By the end of January, Bill wanted to rush the book into print. Then some one
sounded a note of caution: What if the book contained errors? What if the book
was offensive to the religious? So four hundred multilith loan copies were
printed for evaluation. Comments were offered. Bill had written Alcoholics
Anonymous on the cover page, but many in the New York area and more in the Akron
area found this title unacceptable; the other title was The Way Out, which had
become very popular. Other titles under consideration included: Empty Glass, Dry
Frontiers, and Bill even briefly considered The Will W. Movement, but the
choices came down to two: The Way Out, or Alcoholics Anonymous. So, Bill called
Fitz Mahugh, who was in Washington, D.C., visiting family, and asked him to go
to the Library of Congress and see how many books were already titled The Way
Out. And if there were any named Alcoholics Anonymous. Fitz wired back saying
there were twelve books titled The Way Out but none titled Alcoholics Anonymous.
That settled it. No one wanted to have the thirteenth of anything.

Actually the name Alcoholics Anonymous had appeared as early as July 15, 1938,
in a letter from Bill to Dick Richardson, and according to a letter from Dr.
Richards of Johns Hopkins on July 18,1938. Bill at the time was using the name
as the working title of the book and the name of the fellowship. Comments came
in from New Jersey. A psychiatrist, Dr. Howard, observed that the message of
insanity and death so vividly portrayed in the book as consequences of
alcoholism were so persuasive that no further force was necessary, thus the
language was softened and A.A.'s debt to medicine deepened.

From religion, Dr. Harry E. Fosdick returned his copy without criticism, a
favorable book review, and encouraged Alcoholics Anonymous to release it as they
wished.

Morgan Ryan, recently out of Rockland Asylum, took the manuscript to the New
York Archdiocesan committee on publications. According to Morgan, that committee
had nothing but the best to say about AA and the book. They did ask just one
small thing, that the last line of Bill's story be changed from Heaven to
Utopia.

Finally, the manuscript was completed and sent to Tom Uzzell, a professor at New
York University for final editing. Dr. Uzzell was a past editor of Colliers
Magazine, contributor to The Saturday Evening Post, and writer of several books.
Among the books he had edited was The Good Earth, If I Had Four Apples, and many
other best sellers. He was probably the top person in the business of preparing
manuscripts for publication. In a letter to Hank, he said, I spent last evening
with a manuscript, I knew, of course, what the document was, but upon reading
additional chapters and surveying the job as a whole, I found myself deeply
moved at times, full of amazement, almost incredibly, and during most of the
reading I was extremely sympathetic. My feeling at the moment is that you should
certainly hold on to the publication, and distribution of this volume if you
can. It ought to go far and wide and handsome, and make those concerned a big
profit. You have here an extremely urgent problem, you have a successful
defiance of medicine, you have a religious story, you have a deeply human story,
and lastly you have a whole flock of happy endings. I don't know what else you
could want for an excellent book. I believe in it most emphatically. The whole
book needs final shaping of a professional hand. But it is interesting that he
ends the letter with, I understand better now the enthusiasm you revealed when
you talked to me about this work, I thought you were exaggerating somewhat, but
now I have joined the choir. They paid Dr.Uzzell $380.

Finally, they were ready to go. They went up to see Mr. Blackwell at Cornwall
Press. He said how many copies do you want? They said just print a few, say
5,000 copies. Blackwell said how much are you going to put down, they said well,
maybe $500 on account.
________________________________________

Orig. question from <joeadams1950@gmail.com> (joeadams1950 at gmail.com)

I with I had the memory I once had, but I was told that Parkhurst re-wrote
several bits of other people's stories in the first edition, and that it caused
some friction in the New York group. But I cannot remember the source of that
tidbit. Perhaps someone here has the reference.

0 -1 0 0
7153 jaxena77
Red Road meetings Red Road meetings 2/10/2011 8:02:00 PM

Do any members have information on whether or not there is a distinction between
a Red Road meeting and an AA meeting on reservations?

I've heard that Red Road meetings are not AA meetings, but I also read an
article in the Grapevine "The longhouse" that talks about the author's home
group being The Red Road AA meeting.

Are Red Road meetings a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA or a
common AA meeting name on some reservations?

I am also looking for any info on the first meetings to take place on
reservations in Northern America. I already have quite a bit of information on
Maynard B. and Tall Man. I'm looking for older stories if possible.

Thank you!
Jackie B

0 -1 0 0
7154 kcb007_99
Re: Anne Smith: Mother of AA? Anne Smith: Mother of AA? 2/11/2011 1:22:00 AM

Dick B., The Oxford Group and Oxford Anonymous,
rev. ed. (Kihei, HI: Paradise Research Publications,
1998), page 11, footnote 31 reviews evidence that
Bill W. called Anne Smith a "founder" of A.A. and
the "Mother of A.A."

- - - -

Message #7086 from <aalogsdon@aol.com> (aalogsdon at aol.com) asked the
question:

In several of the postings Anne Smith is cited as the Mother of the first group
in Akron. I have heard quoted that she was the Mother of AA. Is this quotation
in print somewhere? Thanks.

0 -1 0 0
7155 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Anne Smith: Mother of AA? Anne Smith: Mother of AA? 2/11/2011 3:02:00 PM

From Baileygc23 and Charles Knapp

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

I am sure that the below is not the only instance of Bill W's making the
statement, but it is a start.

Bill W., The Language of the Heart, 353-54:

Anne was the wife of Dr. Bob, cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous. She was, quite
literally, the mother of our first group, Akron Number One. Her wise and
beautiful counsel to all, her insistence that the spiritual come before anything
else, her unwavering support of Dr. Bob in all his works; all these were virtues
which watered the uncertain seed that was to become A.A. . . . In the full sense
of the word, she was one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com> (cpknapp at yahoo.com)

This is from the July 1949 Grapevine:

Anne S.

ANNE S. has taken her leave of us. She died on Wednesday June 1. To the hundreds
who really knew her, this was a meaningful and moving event. With those who knew
her not, I wish to share the inspiration which she gave to Lois and me. Anne was
the wife of Dr. Bob, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. She was, quite
literally, the mother of our first Group, Akron No. One.

HER wise and beautiful counsel to all, her insistence that the spiritual come
before anything else, her unwavering support of Dr. Bob in all his works; all
these were virtues which watered the uncertain seed that was to become A.A. Who
but God could assess such a contribution? We can only say that it was priceless
and magnificent. In the full sense of the word, she was one of the founders of
Alcoholics Anonymous.

Not a soul who knew Anne will say that she is really gone. Each knows that her
abiding love and influence will live forever. And none knows better than Dr.
Bob, Lois and I, who saw these things from the beginning. Nor do we think we
shall never see her again. For, like nearly all our fellow A.A. members, we
believe there is no death. She is only out of our sight and hearing for a little
while.

Bill W.

0 -1 0 0
7156 Glenn Chesnut
More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/11/2011 9:47:00 PM

From Glenn Chesnut, Mitchell K., and Jim Myers

================================
(1) FROM GLENN CHESNUT

Jim Myers has reported more problems keeping silkworth.net online. His server
has raised his rates, because so many people are using his site. I am posting
this for all the folks on the AAHistoryLovers because this is more than just the
silkworth.net problem. The issue being raised is one that is beginning to have a
major impact on AA history and archives in general.

It is increasingly becoming clear that the best way to make important documents,
photos, etc., available to historians and archivists is through online sites
like silkworth.net. There seems to be much less censorship involved (so far
anyway), and the material is made available where everyone without exception has
access to it. Also, you don't have to travel halfway across the North American
continent (or halfway around the world) to look at the material.

They are also becoming recognized as the best way to make good state and local
AA history accessible.

But when these online archives become large enough, they become expensive to
maintain. Not expensive AT ALL in comparison with maintaining an archives in a
building with hard copies stored in file cabinets, but online archives aren't
free.

At any rate, I thought it important to keep everyone posted on what is
happening.

Glenn Chesnut, Moderator of the AAHistoryLovers
Manager of the Hindsfoot.org website.

================================
(2) FROM MITCHELL K.

Maybe opening up a different site just for MP3 downloads as they are data
guzzlers. I might suggest speaking with the folks at XA-Speakers.org for ideas.

I understand as alcoholics in recovery for the need to both address everything
and be all things to all people but being all things to all people, not
offending anyone, not scaring anyone away and kissing every boo boo has been the
downfall of Alcoholics Anonymous (IMO).

I think Silkworth has been the benchmark for a totally fair and unbiased
viewpoint of AA history on the Net. NO ONE comes close. It's OK for one site to
put together all the biased views in one place which Silkworth does quite well.
Maybe it is time to diversify to different but linked sites.

Unfortunately, if the PayPal donations cannot sustain unbiased reporting then
the supported but biased sites will prevail. There are too many out there who
say they offer freedom of choice but leave out the actual choice is the choice
offered. Yes, you are offered a choice just as long as it is the choice believed
by the people who offered the choice. Yes, you can believe whatever you want
just as long as it matches what we believe.

If people really want true freedom of information, maybe those who can afford to
contribute more will. If not, we all know whose truth each wants us to believe.

================================
(3) FROM JIM MYERS

From: Jim Myers <jim.myers56@yahoo.com>
(jim.myers56 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, February 6, 2011
Subject: Doteasy Account for silkworth.net to stay online

Just wanted to let you know I ave run into a problem with my hosting provider
(doteasy.com) for silkworth.net. It appears that silkworth.net is more popular
than I expected. They have sent me an email stating that I must change my
current service to an upgrade which is more than I can pay. You can read the
details below. They expect for me to pay as much as $19.95 more per month? I am
dumbfounded by their request.

Last month, silkworth.net had more than 72,000 visitors and there has been as
much mp3 downloads as 24 GB in two days.

I am open for sugestions. The Pay Pal link is not doing very well, and I fear
that doteasy.com may limit my current abilities as to what I can do or not do or
post from silkworth.net.

The current status as far as stats for silkworth.net for last month alone were
1,530,428 total hits and 1,251,709 total files and 283,444 total pages and
72,998 total visitors.

I am not sure how to respond to their email (below) yet, and I am open to
suggestions. Please advise me as what would be the best course of action to
take.

A little uneasy,
Yours in service,
Jim M,
http://www.silkworth.net/
_______________________________________

From: Doteasy <DoNotReply@doteasy.com>
To: jim.myers56@yahoo.com
Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 3:00 PM

Hello James,

It has come to our attention that your account ( silkworth.net ) used a lot of
traffic with your MP3 download. Your account has used up 24GB of traffic in just
2 days.

Please note that you are responsible for ensuring that your use of the service
does not consume excessive system or network resources that disrupts the normal
use of the service through, but not limited to, spawning multiple processes,
consuming excessive amounts of memory, CPU or bandwidth usage.

- http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#14

Also, please note that our shared hosting server is not meant to act as a file
sharing/media streaming server: http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#5

We advise you to consider VPS or dedicated server. With VPS (Virtual Private
Server) or Dedicated hosting, your server is dedicated to your needs, which will
allow you to have more control, such as using cron jobs, or installing custom
server software such as streaming media, etc. You can learn more about them at
the following links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_server

You can refer to the following links for more details and pricing:

http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package
http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/

Please let us know if you would like to upgrade to VPS or dedicated server and
which plan you are interested in.

Thank you.
Regards,
Philip
Doteasy Customer Service

0 -1 0 0
7157 Glenn Chesnut
The Broad Highway The Broad Highway 2/15/2011 3:26:00 PM

From: Bob S. (Charlottesville, Virginia)
<bsdds@comcast.net> (bsdds at comcast.net)

BIG BOOK VS. THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT

I got this question about the "broad highway" from a friend of mine in Lubbock:

In the Bible, the term "broad highway" is used in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. We
are supposed to take the less used narrow path which leads to salvation instead
of the broad path/highway leads to perdition (cf. Hank Williams, "Lost highway"
at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcIgQWdWWag ).

========================================
THE USE OF THIS TERM IN THE BIBLE:
See Matthew 7:12-14 in the Revised Standard Version

"So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the
law and the prophets. Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way
is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the
gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it
are few."

And in the King James Version (Authorized Version):
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even
so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait
gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is
the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
========================================

But the AA Big Book refers to the road to sobriety and recovery as the "broad
highway."

========================================
IN THE BIG BOOK:

(p. 46) "Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's
conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to
make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the
possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe
underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of
power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God
does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of
Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those
who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men."

(p. 55) "We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our
make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to
search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We
found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only
there that He may be found. It was so with us.

We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice,
enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within
yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this
attitude you cannot fail. The consciousness of your belief is sure to come to
you."

(p. 75) "We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of
character, every dark cranny of the past. Once we have taken this step,
withholding nothing, we are delighted. We can look the world in the eye. We
can be alone at perfect peace and ease. Our fears fall from us. We begin to
feel the nearness of our Creator. We may have had certain spiritual beliefs,
but now we begin to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that the drink
problem has disappeared will often come strongly. We feel we are on the Broad
Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe."
========================================

Williams James referred to the "broad highway" in his book "The Meaning of
Truth: A Sequel to 'Pragmatism.'" There is a book published in 1910, a romance
novel, by Jeffery Farnol entitled The Broad Highway, and there is even a
recovery website called the Broad Highway.

But where did Bill Wilson and the first 100 come up with the terminology "the
Broad Highway" ? ? ?

Bob S. (Charlottesville, Virginia)

0 -1 0 0
7158 Steven
Emmet Fox''s death Emmet Fox''s death 2/14/2011 5:13:00 AM

Does anyone know how Emmet Fox passed away?

Steven

- - - -

From Glenn C. the moderator -- see this chapter in
a Ph.D. thesis from South Africa: pp. 22-23 describe
Fox's death (note also pp. 20-21).

http://uir.unisa.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10500/2026/02chapter2.pdf;jsessionid=D02\
E1DD9FBEF011F8703EC080C32656D?sequence=2


This little biography of Emmet Fox makes VERY
fascinating reading. I recommend the whole piece
very strongly to anyone who is interested in
AA history.

0 -1 0 0
7159 Tim S
Re: Red Road meetings Red Road meetings 2/13/2011 2:40:00 AM

From Tim S., gerrynmt, and Jim in Central Ohio

- - - -

From: "Tim S" <timschluter@email.com> (timschluter at email.com)

Jackie B,

The short answer is "Yes". Though many understand them as "a type of 12-step
meeting that is distinct from AA", others understand them as "a common AA
meeting name".

The often spoken phrase "traveling the Red Road" refers to Native American
spirituality and even more specifically to a deliberate return to (or
incorporation of) traditional native values and practices. So if you were to
hear me use that statement you would understand it as meaning the practice of
traditional customs.

The meeting may have a different format than what most people are accustomed to
at off-reservation meetings. The Red Road to Well-briety often incorporates such
traditional spiritual practices as smudging, totems, native language, high
regard for traditional values. My brothers and I consider Red Road to be AA. If
we are in the presence of someone who interprets it otherwise, then that is
fine, we don't argue the point, we accept it and try to understand their
perspective.

The Twelve Steps are interpreted through the Medicine Wheel as opposed to the
linear way they are presented at most AA meeting.

There are many differences which I am more than willing to share with you if you
wish additional detail. To a brother or sister from Turtle Island the practices
are spiritually edifying. To one not familiar with native traditions and
practices they would seem unusual.

I encourage you to attend a Red Road meeting with an open mind, and should you
choose to refer to one as "indian" don't be offended if in turn they refer to
you as a "cowboy".

Tim

- - - -

From: "gerrynmt" <traditionsway@yahoo.com>
(traditionsway at yahoo.com)

Jackie,

Red Road meetings are not AA. They are a part of White Bison Inc. which is a
private, non-profit organization that, like others, utilizes the twelve steps of
AA. In their interpretation, they relate the steps to general Native American
traditons. White Bison Inc. uses their own literature along with AA literature
during their meetings. White Bison Inc. and the "Red Road of Wellbriety" have
helped many people recover from alcoholism and other addictions, however, while
many participants believe they are doing AA, they are not.

- - - -

From: Sober186@aol.com

I don't know if this is the same Red Road to which you refer, but there is
information on a Red Road Recovery movement here:

http://milkmanscircle.net/Milkman%27s%20CircleD2/Templates/red_road.htm

RED ROAD ~ A Return To The Circle
(16 Steps of Empowerment)

1. We affirm we have the power to take charge of our lives and stop being
dependent on substances or other people for our self-esteem and security.

2. We come to believe the Great Spirit awakens the healing wisdom within us when
we open ourselves to that power.

3. We make a decision to become our authentic selves and trust in the healing
power of the truth.

4. We examine our beliefs, addictions, and dependent behavior in the context of
living in a hierarchal, patriarchal culture.

5. We share with another person and the universe all those things
inside of us for which we feel shame and guilt.

6. We affirm and enjoy our strengths, talents, and creativity, striving not to
hide these qualities to protect others' egos.

7. We become willing to let go of shame, guilt, and any behavior that keeps us
from loving ourselves and others.

8. We make a list of people we have harmed and people who have harmed us and
take steps to clear out negative energy by making amends and sharing our
grievances in a respectful way.

9. We express love and gratitude to others, and increasingly appreciate the
wonder of life and the blessings we do have.

10. We continue to trust our reality and daily affirm that we see what we see,
we know what we know, and we feel what we feel.

11. We promptly acknowledge our mistakes and make amends when appropriate, but
we do not say we are sorry for things we have not done, and we do not cover up,
analyze, or take responsibility for the shortcomings of others.

12. We seek out situations, jobs, and people that affirm our intelligence,
perceptions, and self-worth to avoid situations or people who are hurtful,
harmful, or demeaning to us.

13. We take steps to heal our physical bodies, organize our lives, reduce
stress, and have fun.

14. We seek to find our inward calling and develop the will and wisdom to follow
it.

15. We accept the ups and downs of life as natural events that can be used as
lessons for our growth.

16. We grow an awareness that we are inter-related with all living things and we
contribute to restoring peace and balance on Mother Earth.

Jim in Central Ohio


_____________________________________________

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jaxena77" <jackiebendzinski@...> wrote:
>
> Do any members have information on whether or not there is a distinction
between a Red Road meeting and an AA meeting on reservations?
>
> I've heard that Red Road meetings are not AA meetings, but I also read an
article in the Grapevine "The longhouse" that talks about the author's home
group being The Red Road AA meeting.
>
> Are Red Road meetings a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA or a
common AA meeting name on some reservations?
>
> I am also looking for any info on the first meetings to take place on
reservations in Northern America. I already have quite a bit of information on
Maynard B. and Tall Man. I'm looking for older stories if possible.
>
> Thank you!
> Jackie B
>

0 -1 0 0
7160 A from near Maldon, England,
Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? 2/12/2011 6:04:00 AM

That warning below is good reading BUT whether we like it or not Wikipedia is
the first line of enquiry nowadays for many millions of people.

The editors go to considerable lengths to root out flawed entries and there are
ways for anyone to complain.

I know whenever I see something wrong or missing I update it if I am technically
capable or at worst alert someone else that what is written is wrong, so if
there is stuff out there that give a false impression we can do our bit by
taking action, that was the purpose of my original posting, I hope some here
have checked over there and from their knowledge decided whether correction is
needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washingtonian_movement

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Lawyer"<ejlawyer@...> wrote:
>
> A WARNING ABOUT USING WIKIPEDIA uncritically as a source of information about
Alcoholics Anonymous history, from Jay Lawyer:
>
> That is the trouble with using Wikipedia as any kind of source for
information. Anybody can write anything they want and unless somebody comes
along to change it, there it is for people to take as Gospel.
> We of Alcoholics Anonymous have enough inaccurate info already, don't need to
add to it.
>
> Jay
>
> ___________________________________________
>
> Original Message: A complaint about the Wikipedia article on the
Washingtonians said:
>
> The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders
are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It
doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite.
>

0 -1 0 0
7161 Robert Stonebraker
Indiana history websites Indiana history websites 2/13/2011 1:06:00 PM

Here are AA History websites for Indiana localities, plus, a Big Book
History Site:

Richmond, Indy, State of Indiana history websites, plus a Big Book AA
History Website:

http://www.area23aa.org/a/view/Main/Richmond

Web address for Richmond, Indiana, AA History (50 pages)

http://www.area23aa.org/a/view/Main/Richmond

Web address for Richmond, Indiana, AA History. (50 pages)

http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Indianapolis_AA_History_July_2009.pdf

Web address for Indianapolis AA History (40 pages)

http://www.aamuncie.org/files/History_of_AA_in_Indiana.pdf

History of Indiana AA (9.99 MB) (40 pages) (entire state)

http://www.aabibliography.com/historybb.htm

Web address for Big Book History (21 pages)

(The Richmond, IN, links may take a few minutes to open.)

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
7162 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Indiana history websites Indiana history websites 2/15/2011 4:54:00 PM

For more on Indiana A.A. history also see:

How A.A. Came to Indiana -- http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html

================================
"J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in Indiana: Evansville, April 23, 1940"
-- J. D. was from the original Akron A.A. group, the tenth person to get sober
in A.A.

"Early Evansville A.A."
================================
"Doherty Sheerin and the Founding of A.A. in Indianapolis: October 28, 1940"

Neil S. (Fishers IN), "History of Indianapolis A.A."

"Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and the Golden Books"
================================
"The Third A.A. Group Started in Indiana: Fort Wayne, December 1941"

John Barleycorn, "A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth Finds God in the A.A. Meetings"

"I'm not a Nice Guy," memorial for Stanley "Skeets" Richards
================================
"The St. Joseph River Valley Region: South Bend, February 22, 1943" -- South
Bend, Mishawaka, Elkhart, and Goshen

The Factory Owner & the Convict

The St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad Man

Ken M., "Drunks Are a Mess"

"Brownie's and the Dignitaries Sympathy Groups"
================================
"The Books the Good Old-Timers Read"
================================
"The A.A. Prison Group Founded in 1944 at the Indiana State Prison at Michigan
City"
================================
"Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-South Bend Axis"
"The Wisdom of Goshen Bill"
================================
"Adventure of Recovery: The Beginnings of A.A. in Anderson, June 1943-February
9, 1947"
================================
Richmond 1945-46 -- The story began when Bob B., a paint store owner in
Richmond, got sober by visiting a business associate in Philadelphia, a man
named Jim Burwell who had gotten sober in 1938 and had started A.A. in that
city. Jim's story in the Big Book is called "The Vicious Cycle" (it is on page
219 in the current 4th edition).
================================
"Kosciusko County: September 30, 1946"
================================
"Gary, Indiana: John Shaifer's Lead"
================================
"A Brief History of A.A. in Delaware County in Indiana" by Bruce C. (Muncie,
Indiana)
================================
"The Lafayette area: January 1948" -- the home of Purdue University, on the
banks of the Wabash river
================================
"The First A.A. Group in Rensselaer: early 1948"
================================

0 -1 0 0
7163 Charlie C
Re: Emmet Fox''s death Emmet Fox''s death 2/16/2011 11:41:00 AM

The NY Times ran an obituary on 8/18/1951. In brief it noted that Fox had died
the week previous, while in Paris. At the time of his death he was pastor of the
Church of the Healing Christ in NYC.

Fox is described as having come to the U.S. from England in 1930, where in his
younger life he had been an electrical engineer. His original church met in
rooms in several hotels, including the Waldorf-Astoria. His talks as the head of
what was then called the "First Church of Divine Science" drew large crowds in
the 1930s.

The obituary also notes that his book "The sermon on the mount: the key to
success in life, and The Lord's prayer: an interpretation"(a popular and
influential title in early AA) was a popular success, running through a number
of editions.

Charlie Cowling

0 -1 0 0
7164 jax760
Re: The Broad Highway The Broad Highway 2/15/2011 10:22:00 PM

From Tom H. (Texoma Coalition) and John B. (jax760)

- - - -

See Message #6087 from "Texoma Coalition" <t4texas@cox.net> (t4texas at cox.net)

Re: The Broad Highway on page 55 of the Big Book

Hi,
What I understand this term to mean is that A.A. is an ll-encompassing
fellowship where people of all different kinds of beliefs gather to deal with
the problem of alcoholism. Bill is throwing out a term that appears, at least a
first glance, to be a contradiction of what Christ is quoted as saying in the
Bible regarding the gate and way to life being narrow while the gate and way to
destruction is broad. But that's not what Bill is implying here. What he is
saying is that the road to a life of recovery is indeed broad enough for us all
to travel it regardless of what kind of title we might confer on God as we
understand Him.

>>> SERMON ON THE MOUNT (Matthew 7:13-14)
>>> (King James Version)
>>> "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is
>>> the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth
>>> to destruction, and many there be which go
>>> in thereat: because strait is the gate, and
>>> narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,
>>> and few there be that find it."
>>>
>>> "strait" = (archaic) narrow, tight,
>>> constricted, strict

>>> BIG BOOK PAGE 55:
>>> "... deep down in every man, woman, and child,
>>> is the fundamental idea of God .... We found
>>> the Great Reality deep down within us. ....
>>> If our testimony ... encourages you to search
>>> diligently within yourself, then, if you wish,
>>> you can join us on the Broad Highway."

In other words, we're all engulfed in the same problem, but how we work out a
solution through working the steps is not so narrowed down that we can't travel
the broad road to recovery together in spite of our differing understanding of a
Higher Power. The 12 steps are configured in such a way that they lead us to
different levels of spiritual progress as we work them to the best of our
ability. A.A. doesn't claim to provide a path to perfection. We strive for
spiritual progress rather than perfection. And when we reach Step 11, we will
have advanced far enough down the broad highway to spiritual progress that we
will make a practice of improving our conscious contact with God as we
understand Him. In other words, there's plenty of room for everybody in A.A.,
provided of course that they have a desire to stay sober.

So when you think about it, you can see that A.A.'s path to recovery as outlined
in the Big Book is without a doubt a Broad Highway in every sense. No one is
excluded; all are welcomed and afforded the opportunity to grow along spiritual
lines regardless of what their personal concept of a Higher Power might happen
to be. Hope that answers your question, and please note that I'm only voicing my
personal understanding of the term you asked about. I'm not trying to preach.

Sincerely,
Tom H.
Recovering Alcoholic
DOS 12-31-1979

- - - -

From John B. <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

The writer wrote:

"In the Bible, the term "broad highway" is used in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount."

The phrase as quoted does not appear in the Bible. You can see post 6088 for the
text and useage from Farnol and decide for yourself if it fits.

God Bless

John B

_________________________________________

Matthew 7:12-14 in the King James Version (Authorized Version):

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even
so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait
gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is
the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
_________________________________________

The Broad Highway by Jeffery Farnol (1878-1952)
_________________________________________

0 -1 0 0
7165 Jon Markle
Re: The Broad Highway The Broad Highway 2/15/2011 7:52:00 PM

Much as we know that some references in our literature come, anecdotally, from
the Bible, many phrases come from other sources, or are simply a manner of
speech of the time period, to express an idea.

I believe this is the case with the phrases used by the Big Book author here,
"broad" & "Broad Highway". The term obviously taken in the context it is found,
means that the program is big enough for everyone & anyone . . . ROOM enough to
hold all who travel it. Unlimited in scope. The journey path that is
prescribed is wide enough for ALL alcoholics, should they choose to travel it.

There is no litmus test as one might find in most organized religions. Our
society does not deny any traveler access.

One difficulty we have when we approach our literature from the standpoint of a
theologian, we begin to find that pieces do not fit, do not match up. Because,
they are not meant to. Our Book is not an interpretation of scriptures, not a
study in systematic theology, not a hermeneutical treatise. It would fail every
test in those areas. Gratefully.

Jon Markle/BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling
Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S
HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation
Raleigh, NC

0 -1 0 0
7166 A from near Maldon, England,
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/12/2011 5:55:00 AM

The message was just posted noting that Jim Myers has reported more problems
keeping silkworth.net online. His server has raised his rates, because so many
people are using his site.

- - - -

I am grateful this need has been drawn to my attention by a friend even before I
read this posting.

Once one has a PayPal account giving financial support from anywhere in the
world only takes a few Mouse Clicks.

It would be helpful to know how much is needed but if all reading this send $10
or $20 if they can afford it it must surely help in the short term. Then when we
know how the fund stands and how much has been received we can work out how much
more we each might send if we can afford it.

I hope this is a link to the PayPal donation page for Silkworth.net

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=hcnstKzfOHRHmpKkrQxns\
Vq8ejJniqfwTN11bno5WdfLUKFKzC3GZl2fMKu&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f8e263663d3faee8d\
f1d2b5c147af55b8d54f2944c97d2a2a


I think it is possible to open account from that link, if one wants to
investigate before here is a link to PayPal itself

https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_account

The money is needed to be paid to this email address.

jim.myers56@yahoo.com (jim.myers56 at yahoo.com)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You might like to consider this from:-

http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/study_aahistory.html

"Why Study A.A. History?
=======================

This article is written by nationally recognized historian and
oft-quoted Alcoholics Anonymous archivist Mitchell K.

Why study, or for that matter, even discuss the history of Alcoholics
Anonymous? What difference would it make? How could it affect how we live and
work our own individual recovery? Who cares?

In a quote attributed to Carl Sandburg, he summed it up when he wrote;
"Whenever a civilization or society declines (or perishes) there is always one
condition present - they forgot where they came from."

This quote, often used by Frank M., Archivist for AA General Services
gives a warning to present and future generations of AA members to "Keep It
Green."

The Washingtonians, The Oxford Group and others forgot where they came
from. They watered-down and made changes to their respective movements which
eventually led to their demise. AA members could take notice and begin to learn
their roots. The history of AA can be both educational and fascinating and help
in making the recovery process a fruitful one.

Bill W. stated in 1940 that of those entering AA, 50 percent never drank
again. 25 percent remained sober throughout their lives after experiencing some
early difficulties and the remaining 25 percent could not be accounted for. Bill
stated that 75 percent of AA members back then got well - they recovered.

Group records indicate that in Cleveland, Ohio there was a 93 percent
success rate for recovery in the early 1940's. Could these astounding figures be
attributed to the fact that only low-bottom alcoholics came into AA? Could they
be attributed to the lack of multiple addictions? We think not.

Early records indicate that though a great number of early members were
considered as low-bottom, there were many who entered AA before losing
everything. Both Dr. Bob and Bill had difficulties with drugs other than
alcohol. Bill struggled with these problems until his death in 1971."

0 -1 0 0
7167 Jim Myers
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/12/2011 2:48:00 AM

Thank you AAHistoryLovers for the post about the new problem facing
silkworth.net!
 
Just to keep you good folks up to date, I am working with doteasy.com to meet
their demands to keep silkworth.net online.
 
I have temporarily disabled all mp3 and avi files on silkworth.net until I can
find an affordable solution, hoping that doteasy.com will allow me to stay
online till I find a solution. I have sent them a message similar to this one in
hopes that I get a positive response from them.
 
I am researching online to see what may help in resolving the current hosting
problem. The last message I received from them, they indicated
silkworth.net needs its own dedicated server due to the tremendous amount of
traffic. This research may take a little time but I am confident that a solution
will be found.

Monetarily, I am not in a good position to do what doteasy.com mentioned I
should do, so I am searching the internet for alternatives.
 
The ideal solution would be that I purchase my own server and host silkworth.net
from that server here in my home. At the moment, I am not sure how that should
be set up and I am not sure how that would effect my service with my Time
Warner Road Runner high speed service.
 
I thank all of you for your continued support!
 
Yours in service,
Jim M,
http://www.silkworth.net/

_______________________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM MY WEB SERVER:

From: Doteasy <DoNotReply@doteasy.com>
To: jim.myers56@yahoo.com
Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 3:00 PM

Hello James,

It has come to our attention that your account ( silkworth.net ) used a lot of
traffic with your MP3 download. Your account has used up 24GB of traffic in just
2 days.

Please note that you are responsible for ensuring that your use of the service
does not consume excessive system or network resources that disrupts the normal
use of the service through, but not limited to, spawning multiple processes,
consuming excessive amounts of memory, CPU or bandwidth usage.

- http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#14

Also, please note that our shared hosting server is not meant to act as a file
sharing/media streaming server: http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#5

We advise you to consider VPS or dedicated server. With VPS (Virtual Private
Server) or Dedicated hosting, your server is dedicated to your needs, which will
allow you to have more control, such as using cron jobs, or installing custom
server software such as streaming media, etc. You can learn more about them at
the following links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_server

You can refer to the following links for more details and pricing:

http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package
http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/

Please let us know if you would like to upgrade to VPS or dedicated server and
which plan you are interested in.

Thank you.
Regards,
Philip
Doteasy Customer Service

0 -1 0 0
7168 Jim Myers
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/13/2011 5:49:00 AM

It was requested that I post the operating cost on silkworth.net. I have done
so. Currently to date, this is what you will find on the index page as of this
email date which you can visit periodically to see all updates, changes and
current status of silkworth.net.

Current operating costs for silkworth.net are as follows:

Domain name renewal once every five years. Cost: approximately $100.00. Next
renewal date: December 14th, 2015.

I am awaiting to hear from doteasy.com to find out the cost per year to host
silkworth.net on its own dedicated server.

Under my current unlimited hosting package with doteasy.com, it was costing
$119.40 per year by the end of March. I expect that will at least double to meet
the needs of silkworth.net.

Current donations to date: $226.81 USD.

I am very grateful to all of you for your support of silkworth.net. More will be
revealed

Jim M.

(You can visit http://www.silkworth.net/ to view the updates and changes as they
are revealed to me.)

Yours in service,
Jim M,
http://www.silkworth.net/

0 -1 0 0
7169 Al Welch
RE: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/11/2011 10:40:00 PM

From Al Welch, mrpetesplace, Pete K. (greatcir), Clyde G., Charles Knapp, and
Bent Christensen

- - - -

From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com> (welch at a-1associates.com)

Tell Jim there are MANY servers available at a modest price. For instance, I
have used Blue Host for a number of years at $97.00 per year with unlimited use.
It has all of the features including 24/7 help line.

- - - -

From: "mrpetesplace" <peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)

It seems that the issue is with the MP3. I know that Mike F. at
recoveryspeakers.org was having to use a dedicated server, you may ask him about
it too.

If you have multiple domains. Ex. silkworth.net, silkworthfile.net,
silkworthdata.com etc. I could host on my package to offset some of the traffic.
You would be set up to take care of it. If you had others that would be willing
to do it as well, it might help.

As for the upgrade, I would look into other companies as well to see what they
do. I use godaddy and about to move some sites to ipage. I would be using both
hostings for different types of sites. I would be keeping AAStuff.com and
WhenManListens.com at my Dovewind package. You may want to look into both of
them as well. You might be surprised on some deals you might be able to find.

In addition to godaddy and ipage, you may want to look into hostgater and
fatcow. I looked into those ones as well but this was like 6 months ago and I
wasn't looking into a dedicated server.

Also, I don't know if streaming using more band width than a simple downloaded
file, but if it does, maybe you can eliminate streaming and go with just
downloads and they can play them after it is loaded.

Anyway, If you don't have multiple domains, we still might be able to work
something out.

Peter

- - - -

From: pete kopcsak <greatcir@gmail.com> (greatcir at gmail.com)

Can one charge for MP3 downloads and have some cash left over to pay the rest of
the bill?

- - - -

From: "CloydG" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net> (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

Why not pass the basket, 7th Tradition? Clyde G.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com> (cpknapp at yahoo.com)

My only question is what is the cost to keep this site going? I have made
donations over the last couple of years. Maybe what I thought was a good
donation was not even a drop in the bucket. Has been my experience when AA
members are given a need in dollar amounts the need is usually met.

Thanks

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From: "bent_christensen5" <bent_christensen5@yahoo.com> (bent_christensen5 at
yahoo.com)

With that kind if trafic I think it is only fair that doteasy.com suggest that
you get a better hosting solution. Besides the limit the site would benefit from
an upgrade to because the downtime would be less and the vistors would get a
faster reply and download.

Since I am living in Denmark uptill now I haven't support silkworth.net but I
would be happy to do.

I do understand that $ 20 a month is a lot of money for you, but together we
should easily be able to gather the money together.

Normally I use paypal but as far as I understand you have some problems with
that, Jim?

Best regards
Bent

0 -1 0 0
7170 Tim S
Re: keeping silkworth.net online -- use torrent files? keeping silkworth.net online -- use torrent files? 2/13/2011 2:51:00 AM

Perhaps torrents would solve the problem. The you only need to host a very small
torrent file and the community would then host the files and share the traffic
among many.

____________________________________________

From Glenn C. the moderator: WHAT IS A TORRENT FILE?

see http://ask-leo.com/whats_a_torrent.html

What is a torrent file and can it be broken down to smaller files and recorded
to CDs/DVDs?

Torrents, typically ending in ".torrent", are control files for the peer-to-peer
file sharing technology called BitTorrent.

It's actually pretty cool technology that really just boils down to another way
to download files. So really, you just use .torrent files to download other
files.

BitTorrent is a distributed file distribution technology. Yes, "distributed
distribution". When you download a file using BitTorrent, the file is actually
broken up into chunk that your BitTorrent client program then downloads and
reassembles into the final file as the pieces arrive. To over-simplify, what
makes it interesting are two things:

The different chunks you download can all be coming from different machines. A
BitTorrent client will connect to many other BitTorrent clients and download
several chunks at once, in random order. In the long run this makes the protocol
fairly efficient, and very nicely scalable - the more BitTorrent clients that
are serving up a given file, the faster other clients can download it.

As you start collecting chunks of the file, your BitTorrent client will start
making those chunks available for downloading to other BitTorrent clients, and
will become a part of the peer-to-peer file distribution network.

The ".torrent" file is simply the bootstrap for this whole process. You download
that normally, for example in your web browser, and then it is read by your
BitTorrent client. It has the information that the BitTorrent client then uses
to begin to locate other BitTorrent clients that are serving up the file you're
interested in.

"Torrent" is sometimes used to refer to the file being shared using BitTorrent,
but a ".torrent" file is a specific file with specific information that is used
to bootstrap the file download.

Note I haven't talked at all about what kinds of files are actually being
downloaded. That's because the answer is "any". Typically the types of files
being shared using BitTorrent are large - audio files, video files and programs.
But just saying "a torrent" doesn't tell you what it is or what you can do with
it.

Let's get concrete. Let's say you've discovered that some "Public Domain Movie"
is available via a torrent. You download the ".torrent" file, and open it in
your BitTorrent client. It then goes out to the internet, locates other
BitTorrent clients that are serving up that file, and begins downloading all the
various chunks until it has a complete copy of the file. When it's all done,
you'll end up with something like a "PublicDomainMovie.avi" file. Or ".mpg",
".mov" or something else. What you then do with that file is up to you. Yep, you
could burn that file to a CD or DVD, but that's all something you would do after
it's downloaded, and has nothing to do with the fact that you got it via
BitTorrent.

I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with BitTorrent clients, so I
can't really recommend one over the other, but I have used Azureus successfully,
and it seems to be one of the more popular BitTorrent clients. I will warn you
that all of the BitTorrent clients I've seen to date are still in the "geeky"
stage, meaning that they sort of assume you know what you're doing to begin
with. It's not a steep learning curve, but it will seem pretty obscure at first.

0 -1 0 0
7171 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? 2/15/2011 6:43:00 PM

On the dangers of looking something up on wikipedia first, and stopping there
and assuming that this information is accurate, and not reading anything else:

Just because a "source" is commonly used "first" does not mean
that it is accurate or best. Millions of people use Facebook too!

0 -1 0 0
7172 ckbudnick
Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons 2/13/2011 1:47:00 PM

Greetings!

I'm posting this with the hopes that some people may information or leads.

Along with a couple of friends, we have been researching the transmission of the
program of Alcoholics Anonymous during the late 40's and 50's to straight
addicts and those who had "dual problems" (alcohol and other drugs). We have
also been researching AA's response to the growing number of straight addicts
and dual problem members who were joining Alcoholics Anonymous.

We've discovered that the expansion of twelfth step work to jails and prisons by
some early members played a major role in facilitating the increased interest in
Alcoholics Anonymous by those who were not "simon-pure alcoholics" (to borrow
and expression we've read).

One early member of AA in Southern California who was a pioneer in this area was
a man named Jack Prohs. I believe that he passed away in 2002 with over 50
years of sobriety. We are interested in finding out if anyone knew him or knew
if he had children who we might be able to interview.

There is an article in the LA Times (1985) where Jack Prohs talks about the
passing of Beatrice Jorgensen.

"Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women alcoholics in
the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los Angeles County
Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House."

Does anyone know if Beatrice Jorgensen was previously Beatrice Follett?

Another person of great interest to us is a woman named Betty Thom, along with
her husband Larry Thom. Betty was very involved in corresponding with prison
based AA groups throughout the country as well as carrying the message into
jails, prisons and institutions. She and her husband moved to Santa Monica and
her husband Larry became very involved with the Bay Area AA Rehabilitation
Center.

Does anyone know anything about Betty and Larry?

Thanks so much.


Chris B.
Raleigh, NC

0 -1 0 0
7173 Alex H
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/16/2011 6:17:00 PM

On 2/12/2011 1:48 AM, Jim Myers wrote:
>
>
> The ideal solution would be that I purchase my own server and host
> silkworth.net from that server here in my home. At the moment, I am
> not sure how that should be set up and I am not sure how that would
> effect my service with my Time Warner Road Runner high speed service.
>

Without getting too technical... having a home server will not solve
your bandwidth issue. It will only change the person who will be yelling
at you for chewing up all the bandwidth. However, if you can offload the
audio and video to some podcast audio place or YouTube, you can run your
server at home using your domain name for the server and link to the
audio/video at those other places. They will take the bandwidth hit. Not
you.

If you are not familiar with UNIX at the console level, forget about
setting up your own server.

The home server set up I am experimenting with is at...
http://refounder1.gets-it.net/wordpress

1. Roadrunner ... full home package. Fastest they have. (Not the
Signature package. I don't need my toes manicured too. :-))
2. New router... Net Gear WNDR 3400, a mid-range, router with "Dynamic
DNS" and port-forwarding.
4. I paid $15 for a simple yearly account with http://www.DynDNS.org to
get a domain name to point to my home server. You pay more for
additional services. There are free accounts available but they are a
pain. Pay for the real services.
5. Dell Computer (5 years old and unused) with 160 Gig hard drive.
6. Debian or Ubuntu Linux. (I prefer Debian but Ubuntu is easier to set
up and there is more help online.)

Obviously there is more to setting this up than I am saying here but
remember that the high-speed bandwidth they advertise on TV is the
DOWNLOAD speed... NOT the UPLOAD speed that you will need. Your users
will experience a slow server when getting audio/video files from your
home server because your home upload bandwidth is limited (probably
throttled to discourage customers from doing the very thing you are
trying to do right now).

If your goal is to disseminate audio/video for historical purposes to
academia you might offer short audio samples and then sell a CD to them
at cost or set up a store at PayPal and charge some minimum to cover the
bandwidth costs. In the old days any research professor would limit the
requests for data by requiring those requesting the data to pay for
copying costs. If academia is who you are serving, then they ought to be
familiar with this.

Alex H.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
7174 John Moore
Re: Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons 2/16/2011 10:23:00 PM

*"Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women
alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los
Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House."

Here is a personal anecdote about Bea Jorgensen and the Friendly House if
you all don't mind. I was a newcomer in 1972, living in Laguna Beach Cal.
I was down on my luck and making $2 per hour as a house painter. I was the
most inept painter on the crew but I was getting by somehow. What few
possessions I still had when I got sober were gone. Apartment, furniture,
nice job, car, money...I lost it all, mainly due to a big case of sober self
will run riot.

I got a new sponsor and started into the steps in earnest. I hoped to some
day I might get another car, but calling for rides and hitching lifts after
meetings was getting me where I needed to go. As I moved through the steps
my life began to calm down. One day my sponsor told me that he heard the
Friendly House in Los Angeles was getting a new car and that the old one, a
Chevy Nova, was for sale. Price $200. I knew I could put the money
together and I asked him if he would drive me up to L.A.

The Friendly House was a big old house somewhere near downtown and was the
first woman's halfway house in L.A. They told me Bea Jorgensen was the
person I should see; she was the manager or something. I figured I would
check out the car, kick the tires, look under the hood, find a few things
that were wrong, and haggle a better price.

I was wrong. Bea asked me into her office, sat me down, and started to ask
me questions. She began grilling me in a nice way, as to what step was I
working, who was my sponsor, what home group did I belong to, how many
meetings was I going to, how long since my last drink... her questions went
on and on. What the heck does all this have to do with buying a car, I
wondered. Somewhere in the process, my plan of haggling price went out the
window. I was the one being inspected, not the car. It began to dawn on me
that she wanted to know if I good enough for their car, and not the other
way around.

At the end of the interview she leaned back in her chair and told me ok, I
had passed muster, and I could buy the car, it would be $200. Did I want to
see it? By that point I was thoroughly buffaloed. This had not gone the way
I planned. I told Bea, no, not necessary, I will take it. I gave her the
money and she handed me the keys and told me where it was parked. That was
the last I saw of Bea and the first I saw of the car. She made a big
impression on me and taught me something that day about trust. We AA's
march to the tune of a different drummer. Her knowing whether I was walking
the walk was more important than money, and strangely enough, it kinda made
sense to me.

That little Chevy Nova opened many doors for me. (Bald tires were a problem
but at a meeting I ran into someone who had a gas station and he sold used
tires. He gave me a set for only $15 each and got me fixed up) A good job
came my way; a man who was sober for 15 years was going to train a salesman
and looking for someone on the program. I went to see him and he hired me.
He taught me a new trade and my little Chevy Nova took me around to my
customers and I prospered. I went on to enjoy a business career spanning 30
years from that humble beginning.

I heard afterward that that Bea's story was being made for TV and that she
was becoming famous or something, but from my meeting with her, I knew she
was not a "Hollywood" type. Bea was a woman of principle, a sober AA member
doing service for her fellow woman as best she could. There is a lot to
admire about Beatrice Jorgensen.

Yours in AA,

John M
Early Risers Group
Burlington Vermont US
DOS Dec 7 1971





*
*On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 1:47 PM, ckbudnick <cbudnick@nc.rr.com> wrote:
*
>
> * *
>
> *Greetings!
>
> I'm posting this with the hopes that some people may information or leads.
> * *
>
> Along with a couple of friends, we have been researching the transmission
> of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous during the late 40's and 50's to
> straight addicts and those who had "dual problems" (alcohol and other
> drugs). We have also been researching AA's response to the growing number of
> straight addicts and dual problem members who were joining Alcoholics
> Anonymous.* *
>
> We've discovered that the expansion of twelfth step work to jails and
> prisons by some early members played a major role in facilitating the
> increased interest in Alcoholics Anonymous by those who were not "simon-pure
> alcoholics" (to borrow and expression we've read).* *
>
> One early member of AA in Southern California who was a pioneer in this
> area was a man named Jack Prohs. I believe that he passed away in 2002 with
> over 50 years of sobriety. We are interested in finding out if anyone knew
> him or knew if he had children who we might be able to interview.* *
>
> There is an article in the LA Times (1985) where Jack Prohs talks about the
> passing of Beatrice Jorgensen.* *
>
> "Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women
> alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los
> Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House."* *
>
> Does anyone know if Beatrice Jorgensen was previously Beatrice Follett?* *
>
> Another person of great interest to us is a woman named Betty Thom, along
> with her husband Larry Thom. Betty was very involved in corresponding with
> prison based AA groups throughout the country as well as carrying the
> message into jails, prisons and institutions. She and her husband moved to
> Santa Monica and her husband Larry became very involved with the Bay Area AA
> Rehabilitation Center.* *
>
> Does anyone know anything about Betty and Larry? * *
>
> Thanks so much.* *
>
> Chris B.* *
> Raleigh, NC
>
> *
> * **
> *
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
7175 bikergaryg@aol.com
Book sale to keep silkworth.net online -- 2nd ed. Big Book Book sale to keep silkworth.net online -- 2nd ed. Big Book 2/16/2011 11:07:00 AM

I will place a 2nd edition big book with a new replacement dust-jacket on E-BAY
and donate those funds to silkworth.net.

E-bay does not charge me a fee if I am donating the funds.
this is a great site and needs to stay open.

You can also donate using pay-pal, I just did and it is very easy: go to
http://silkworth.net/ and you will find the gold Pay Pal seal and Donate button
at the bottom of the left hand column.

Hope this will help some.

bikergaryg

New Jersey

0 -1 0 0
7176 Bill Lash
AA History Weekend Flyer AA History Weekend Flyer 2/22/2011 10:37:00 AM

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS HISTORY WEEKEND IV
“THE EARLY YEARS”
(East Dorset, Vermont is also having its 250-year anniversary celebration &
history tour this same weekend)

with John B. from South Orange NJ & Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ

Both Past History & Archives Committee Chairpersons of Area 44 (North NJ)

August 19 – 21, 2011

At The Wilson House (where Bill W. was born)
378 Village Street
East Dorset, Vermont 05253

John B. has been overly passionate about AA history for a long time. He will be
doing a presentation on “The First 40 Members of AA” and a picture presentation
called “The Men Who Came to Believe” about William James, Carl Jung & Dr.
Silkworth.

Barefoot Bill has been studying and collecting AA history since 1994. He will
be doing a presentation called “Bill W.’s Younger Years” and a picture
presentation on the people, places & things associated with AA history mentioned
in the Big Book.

Saturday afternoon Bonnie L. & Barefoot Bill will also be doing a 2 & 1/2 hour
sightseeing grand tour of all the AA history spots in & around East Dorset,
Vermont

Schedule:
Friday night 8/20/10 9:00 to 10:00pm – AA history movie (popcorn provided)
Saturday morning 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:20am – Bill W.’s Younger Years
Saturday morning 8/21/10 10:40 to 11:55am – The Men Who Came to Believe
Saturday afternoon 8/21/10 1:00 to 3:30pm – A sightseeing grand tour of all
the AA history spots in & around East Dorset VT by Bonnie L. & Barefoot Bill
Saturday night 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:00pm – AA history movie (popcorn provided)
Sunday morning 8/22/10 9:00 to 10:20am – The First 40 Members of AA
Sunday morning 8/22/10 10:40 to 11:55am – The AA History Mentioned in the
Big Book

For weekend and overnight reservations please call the Wilson House at
802-362-5524.
For more information please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell).

0 -1 0 0
7177 Allan Gengler
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/16/2011 4:34:00 PM

I host a few sites through Fatcow and they have a good deal right now.

http://www.fatcow.com/

Allan J. Gengler

____________________________________________

http://www.allangengler.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/algengler/
agengler@wk.net
agengler@allangengler.com
agengler@gmail.com

Mac OS X Leopard Rulez
Be an organ donor, tell a friend.
Yeshua is the man

0 -1 0 0
7178 Jim Myers
Updated current operating costs of silkworth.net Updated current operating costs of silkworth.net 2/18/2011 1:36:00 AM

The following is somewhat what you will find on the index page of silkworth.net
about its current problem it is facing:

-------------------------------------------

Current operating costs for silkworth.net are as follows:

Domain name renewal once every five years. Cost: approximately $100.00. Next
renewal date: December 14th, 2015.

Response from doteasy.com 02/13/11 to find out the cost per year to host
silkworth.net on a dedicated server or VPSHosting - keeping in mind, in January,
350.4 Gigabytes of traffic to this site.

These are the only options doteasy.com are offering to fully restore
silkworth.net:

>>> http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package (Virtual Private Server) or
 
>>> http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/, silkworth.net having its own
server (their partner company).

I am also looking into a few other options.

Current donations through Pay Pal to date: $456.89 USD. I also received a grant
for $3,000 from the "Serving The Spirit Foundation". Even though silkworth.net
is not a group, the grant meets the requirements of A.A.'s 7th Tradition.

I am very grateful to all of you for your support of silkworth.net.

More will be revealed....~Jim M.

-------------------------------------------

I have until the end of March to resolve the current hosting problem. I am also
very grateful for the feedback and great ideas I have received from some of you
that has helped me in the decision process - which includes the elimination of a
couple of ideas I was looking into.

Yours in service,
Jim M,
silkworth.net

=============================================
"Let us also remember to guard that erring member - the tongue, and if we must
use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance." -Dr. Bob,
Sunday, July 30, 1950
http://silkworth.net/aahistory/drbob_farewell.html
=============================================

0 -1 0 0
7179 joe
Clarence S and Fort Knox Clarence S and Fort Knox 2/22/2011 6:31:00 AM

I am currently stationed at Fort Knox, and as an AA history lover, I am
interested in Clarence's time here at Fort Knox for officer training recorded in
"How It Worked" chapter 6. The letter from the Louisville AA office invited him
to the meeting at 3rd and Kentucky St. The distance he would have had to travel
to the meeting from Fort Knox was equivalent to going from Cleveland to Akron.

I am curious to know, did Clarence ever write back, attend the group, or
otherwise interact with AA in Kentucky during his training?

0 -1 0 0
7180 victor v
Who carried the message of AA into Italy? Who carried the message of AA into Italy? 2/17/2011 11:03:00 AM

Who carried the A.A. message into Italy? And when?

0 -1 0 0
7181 James Blair
Re: Who carried the message of AA into Italy? Who carried the message of AA into Italy? 2/22/2011 10:10:00 PM

Victor wrote: Who carried the A.A. message into Italy? And when?

From unpublished AA World History Manuscript (1985)


A.A. was also very slow to get started among the Italians. Like Paris, Rome
had an English-speaking group in the early 1960's, which has continued until
the present. But repeated attempts to reach the Italians met with failure
except for a few bi-lingual individuals. Then, in the early '70's, a member
of the Italian parliament now known as Carlo #1, a big, imposing man, was
such a bad drunk that he was in danger of losing his post. He heard of the
English-speaking A.A. group in Rome and began attending meetings-even though
he did not understand English. The message was carried to him through an
interpreter. Carlo absorbed enough of the program to get sober, stay sober,
and carry the message to other Italian alcoholics. This had to be done
verbally, since there was no literature in Italian.



One day in March 1975, a doctor called on Carlo #1 to speak with a patient
in the hospital who had alcoholic neuritis so severely he was confined to a
wheelchair and was feared near the end. The patient was Roberto C., who was
to become the father of Italian A.A. Roberto-the only son of the Helen Hayes
of Italian theater, film and TV, and her producer-husband, who were
constantly on the road-was reared by an uncle in a villa in Florence and
educated in private schools. After serving in the war, he became a noted
journalist, living for eight years as a correspondent in the U.S., where he
became completely fluent in English. He also progressed into raging,
desperate alcoholism, which got him deported back to Italy. There, despite
periodic flashes of success on newspapers and national television, he
continued to sink into sickness and eventual repeated hospitalization, which
left him with a noticeable limp today. As soon as he was able after meeting
Carlo, Roberto began attending the English-speaking A.A. group. With a
consuming desire to stop drinking and as at home in English as in Italian,
Roberto literally immersed himself in Alcoholics Anonymous. He read, re -
read and absorbed every word of the Big Book and the other literature. With
a deep spiritual base to his fractured life, he was awed by A.A.'s message
of the need for spiritual change. And he began forthwith to carry the
message to Italian alcoholics.



When he had been sober less than two years, Roberto's renowned but aged
mother became ill. Roberto, who had squandered a sizeable amount of his
mother's money during his drinking, now felt he owed her great amends, so he
went with her to a family villa in the country, where he remained at her
side until she died. During these two years of isolation and devotion,
Roberto says, "What did I have to do, but translate the Big Book into
Italian?" With the help of other fledgling A.A.'s, Roberto then spearheaded
an effort to publish the Italian Big Book (with financial assistance from
A.A. World Services). He brought the first copy with him to the
International Convention in New Orleans in 1980, where he presented it to
Lois W. In his brief presentation talk, he announced proudly that Italy then
had seven A.A. groups.



Upon his return, he went through his native country like a Johnny Appleseed,
sowing A.A. groups everywhere. In Rome, Carlo E., a wealthy businessman,
joined up and used his own money to underwrite the translating and
publishing of all the A.A. literature into Italian and the opening of a
General Service Office to augment the intergroup which had already been
established. A General Service Board was formed in October 1979, and after a
great deal of controversy and several false starts, the first General
Service Conference was held in 1984. By 1985, with appropriate gratitude for
his part in getting Italian A.A. off to a flying start, Carlo E. was
persuaded to halt his personal financial support and make the groups more
reliant on their own contributions.



In the autumn of 1985, Italian A.A. held its own convention to celebrate the
50th Anniversary of A.A.'s founding. About 700 spirited A.A.'s and their
families turned up for the gathering, which was held in the Adriatic resort
town of Rimini, where they heard Bob P., G.S.O. general manager, with
Roberto C. translating the talk. At that time, there were over 100 A.A.
groups in Italy, with new ones forming almost every day, and membership
totaled over 4,000.

0 -1 0 0
7182 James Blair
Re: Clarence S and Fort Knox Clarence S and Fort Knox 2/22/2011 10:51:00 PM

I took a quick look at the Cleveland Centeral Bulletins and in the December
1942 issue a letter from Clarence Snyder was published. He stated that he
had very little personal time but that he had been asked to speak at a
meeting in Louisville and had been granted special leave for the occasion.

He also mentioned that the Louisville AA's had been bringing fellows to Ft.
Knox to have him speak to them on a personal basis.

Hope this helps.

Jim B.

- - - -

Original message:

>I am currently stationed at Fort Knox, and as an AA history lover, I am
>interested in Clarence's time here at Fort Knox for officer training
>recorded in "How It Worked" chapter 6. The letter from the Louisville AA
>office invited him to the meeting at 3rd and Kentucky St. The distance he
>would have had to travel to the meeting from Fort Knox was equivalent to
>going from Cleveland to Akron.

> I am curious to know, did Clarence ever write back, attend the group, or
> otherwise interact with AA in Kentucky during his training?

0 -1 0 0
7183 The Wilsons
Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 2/18/2011 4:55:00 PM

In the book The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Tradition 4 talks
about the setup of an AA service complex: a treatment center that would provide
financial aid, medical care, recovery help etc.

It also talks about 61 rules that were drawn up. A fellow at a meeting the other
night said that he recalled that at one time he thought he saw a list of 108
different rules that came from various groups.

Was the AA treatment center really started somewhere? Where was it at?

So we have the list of 61 rules?

Bob Wilson
Port Orchard, Washington

0 -1 0 0
7184 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 2/23/2011 3:06:00 PM

Rule 62 and Wombley's Clapboard Factory

Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions pp. 147-149:
Rule No. 62, "Don't take yourself too damn seriously."
______________________________

Message 2324 from "Mark Morse" <markm@eauclaire.lib.wi.us>
(markm at eauclaire.lib.wi.us)

Wombley's clapboard factory

Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar
Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vermont, before the turn of the century.
The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the
Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county.
______________________________

Message 1610 from Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East Dorset and
he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still be seen.
______________________________

The full story, pp. 147-149 from the chapter in the Twelve Steps & Twelve
Traditions on the Fourth Tradition ("Each group should be autonomous except in
matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole"):

Every group had the right to be wrong.
When A.A. was still young, lots of eager groups were forming. In a town
we'll call Middleton, a real crackerjack had started up. The townspeople were
as hot as firecrackers about it. Stargazing, the elders dreamed of
innovations. They figured the town needed a great big alcoholic center, a kind
of pilot plant A.A. groups could duplicate everywhere. Beginning on the ground
floor there would be a club; in the second story they would sober up drunks and
hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck would house and
educational project - quite controversial, of course. In imagination the
gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three would do for a
start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's money. Believe it
or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea.
There were, though, a few conservative dissenters among the alcoholics.
they wrote the Foundation*, A.A.'s headquarters in New York, wanting to know
about this sort of streamlining. They understood that the elders, just to nail
things down good, were about to apply to the Foundation for a charter. These
few were disturbed and skeptical.
[*In 1954, the name of the Alcoholic Foundation, Inc., was changed to the
General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc., and the Foundation office
is now the General Service Office.]
Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his
eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could
issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication
and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the
promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly
painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town.
Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one
rules and regulations were adopted.
But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. Confusion replaced
serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if
they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe
with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care
of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three
floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming
club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized,
then graduated to education on the third floor. It was a beehive of activity,
all right, but unlike a beehive, it was confusion compounded. An A.A. group, as
such, simply couldn't handle this sort of project. All too late that was
discovered. Then came the inevitable explosion - something like that day the
boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory. A chill chokedamp of fear and
frustration fell over the group.
When that lifted, a wonderful thing had happened. The head promoter wrote
the Foundation office. He said he wished he'd paid attention to A.A.
experience. Then he did something else that was to become an A.A. classic. It
all went on a little card about golf-score size. The cover read: "Middleton
Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was unfolded, a single pungent sentence
leaped to the eye: "Don't take yourself too damn seriously."
Thus it was that under Tradition Four an A.A. group had exercised its right
to be wrong.

0 -1 0 0
7185 Corey
Parkhurst relatives Parkhurst relatives 2/18/2011 6:28:00 PM

If you know of any of Hank Parkhurst's relatives or are one would you have them
contact me asap? We need your help. THX!

Corey F.
<erb2b@yahoo.com> (erb2b at yahoo.com)
THX!

0 -1 0 0
7186 WendiT
Joe Quinn Joe Quinn 2/18/2011 7:34:00 PM

Hello,

I am doing an article on Joe Quinn for an alano club newsletter.

Joe Quinn got sober in Los Angeles on December 21st, 1952, and passed away on
July 25th 2000.

Folks are telling me Joe spoke all over the country and was known all over. I
have had a great opportunity to talk to many whose lives he touched.

I thought I would ask if there are any oldtimers our there with additional
stories.

Thank you,

Wendi
<wenditurner@gmail.com>
(wenditurner at gmail.com)

0 -1 0 0
7187 Aalogsdon
Hiding a bad motive under a pretended good motive Hiding a bad motive under a pretended good motive 2/20/2011 1:10:00 PM

Need help identifying source for the quotation which goes something like "hiding
a bad motive under a good motive." Appreciate any help.

<aalogsdon@aol.com>
(aalogsdon at aol.com)

- - - -

From Glenn C. the moderator
<glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

The first passage that springs to my mind is the one at the end of the chapter
on Step 10 in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (page 94):

"As we glance down the debit side of the day's ledger, we should carefully
examine our motives in each thought or act that appears to be wrong. In most
cases our motives won't be hard to see and understand. When prideful, angry,
jealous, anxious, or fearful, we acted accordingly, and that was that. Here we
need only recognize that we did act or think badly, try to visualize how we
might have done better, and resolve with God's help to carry these lessons over
into tomorrow, making, of course, any amends still neglected."

"But in other instances only the closest scrutiny will reveal what our true
motives were. There are cases where our ancient enemy, rationalization, has
stepped in and has justified conduct which was really wrong. The temptation here
is to imagine that we had good motives and reasons when we really didn't."

"We 'constructively criticized' someone who needed it, when our real motive was
to win a useless argument. Or, the person concerned not being present, we
thought we were helping others to understand him, when in actuality our true
motive was to feel superior by pulling him down. We sometimes hurt those we love
because they need to be 'taught a lesson,' when we really want to punish. We
were depressed and complained we felt bad, when in fact we were mainly asking
for sympathy and attention. This odd trait of mind and emotion, this perverse
wish to hide a bad motive underneath a good one, permeates human affairs from
top to bottom."

Can anyone in the AAHistoryLovers come up with another possible source for this
quote?

0 -1 0 0
7188 Jim M
Keeping everyone up to date: maintaining silkworth.net online Keeping everyone up to date: maintaining silkworth.net online 2/22/2011 10:53:00 PM

There are many Hosting providers who offer packages similar to Fatcow, including
my current provider, doteasy.com. Here's the problem. Their "unlimited" packages
do offer the unlimited bandwidth, but you have to read the fine print. With
Fatcow their "unlimited" means up to SMALL businesses. With my hosting provider
their "unlimited" means SMALL to MEDIUM
businesses.

My provider doteasy.com says silkworth.net is considered, if you read between
the lines as they have already reminded me twice, LARGER THAN A MEDIUM medium
business.

Don't get me wrong here, we all know silkworth.net is not a business. The site
primarily archives much AA history material (along with other related
information) made available to the general public free of charge, and is
self-supporting. And it is my hopes that more folks will send in more AA history
material making silkworth.net the largest data base of AA history material in
the world made available publicly via the world wide web - which is a big plus
for any AA member or for folks who are just interested, seeking, researching
etc... etc... such information.

Since I have gotten enough donations to do so, I am probably going to have
silkworth.net moved to a Private Virtual Server at a cost of $468.00 per year,
which allows up to 500 Gigabytes of traffic in any given month. Last month,
silkworth.net got 350.4 Gigabytes of traffic. Of course, this threw up red flags
with my hosting provider. I can live with this and you may see additional
changes in the site in the future.

Today, I opened a bank account in the name of "silkworth.net" so if anyone
wishes to donate by check, they can make it out to silkworth.net - not to me or
any other individual. At the moment this account only requires one signature.
Other signatures can be added. So, for the moment, the account will only have
the name "Silkworth.net." Once the LLC License has been purchased (pretty
cheap), the changes will be made with the account to show the account as, for
example: Silkworth.net LLC (I believe cheaper than going the route of Company or
Incorporated).

Doing this much is also possible due to a grant that silkworth.net received in
the amount of $3,000.00, in which the bank account was created at Wachovia (all
soon to be known as Wells Fargo - in almost all of these United States, with the
exception of about seven States, I think). I also made sure the grant met all
requirements of AA's Tradition 7.

Just keeping you up to date.....

Yours in service,
Jim M.

0 -1 0 0
7189 ron.fulkerson@comcast.net
Rule 62 and Wombley''s Clapboard Factory Rule 62 and Wombley''s Clapboard Factory 2/23/2011 4:21:00 PM

The old foundation to Wombley's Clapboard Factory still exists and can be seen
behind the post office in East Dorset ... ronf

0 -1 0 0
7190 Mike
Living amends Living amends 2/21/2011 8:26:00 AM

I've heard AA'ers talk about 'living amends', but I've never read about it in
our literature. Does anyone know what it means or if it has any substantive
roots in AA?

Thanks, Mike

0 -1 0 0
7191 amelialoomis
changing the 12 steps changing the 12 steps 2/23/2011 6:33:00 PM

Does anyone know of the 12-steps being changed in our history? This could be
individual meetings, regions, or meeting directory policies. After all this
time there must be some documentation of the struggles on this.

Thanks, Amelia

0 -1 0 0
7192 Glenn Chesnut
More on the doctoral thesis about Emmet Fox More on the doctoral thesis about Emmet Fox 2/23/2011 7:28:00 PM

We already referred to the little biography of Emmet Fox in Chapter 2 of this
doctoral thesis. The entire thesis can be read at:

http://uir.unisa.ac.za/handle/10500/2026

"The Religious Thought of Emmet Fox in
the Context of the New Thought Movement"
by Maré Venter
submitted for the degree of Doctor of Literature and Philosophy
in the subject Religious Studies
at the University of South Africa
under the supervision of Prof. J. S. Krüger
30 November 2004

Abstract: The religious significance of Emmet Fox (1886-1951), a pioneer in the
New Thought movement, is the focus of this study. The relevance of Fox's
religious thought will be determined in reference to and in the context of
contemporary theorist Ken Wilber's theoretical framework of integral
hermeneutics. On the basis of Fox's primary writings, biographical information,
the ideas and philosophy of modern New Thought scholars and Wilber's literature,
Fox's religious thought was interpreted and evaluated. Aspects of Fox's belief,
such as creative mind, scientific prayer, meditation and healing, concepts such
as God, Jesus Christ, death, reincarnation, karma and end times, as well as his
method of biblical exegesis are discussed. It becomes apparent that Emmet Fox,
preacher and teacher, had never intended to provide a scientific or academic
structural doctrine in which to deliver his teaching. His non-conformist,
simple, yet well thought-through beliefs, which include esoteric, eastern and
universal truths, focused on the fundamental truths that are necessary for
humanity's evolutionary development. This approach made Fox's teaching valuable
to his audience of the time, a changing American consciousness, as well as
appropriate to a transformational South Africa, where it is relevant in bridging
the various cultures, languages, and religious beliefs within a continuously
changing spiritually minded population, and most of all, beneficial to every
person's inner spiritual journey towards ultimate enlightenment. Fox's
underlying religious belief is that `the thought is the thing' and this endorses
the whole of the New Thought teaching, which states that `whatever the mind can
conceive and believe, it can achieve' or `be ye transformed by the renewing of
your mind'. Probably the most remarkable feature of his religious thinking is
his popular allegorical interpretation of the Bible, which he interprets
spiritually. It is apparent that there is an affinity between the religious
thought of Emmet Fox and that of Wilber. Although the intent of this study is
not to compare these scholars, it is interesting and valuable to Fox's
interpretation that they advocate a similar underlying belief in the holistic
Kosmos and the importance of having an integral vision.

0 -1 0 0
7194 Glenn Chesnut
How many copies of 12-and-12 published? How many copies of 12-and-12 published? 2/24/2011 4:17:00 PM

From D. B. in England:

How many copies of the 12-and-12 have been published? I know the Big Book is
over 30 million world wide but I cannot find out about the 12-and-12. I did
email GSO New York some weeks ago but they have not answered.

0 -1 0 0
7195 Phillip Baker
Re: Living amends Living amends 2/23/2011 6:35:00 PM

From Philip Baker, John Wikelius, Bob Gordon, Amelia, and Dov W.

- - - -

From: Phillip Baker <phillip@freewolf.net> (phillip at freewolf.net)

Hey Mike,

What Living Amends is about is changing behavior moving forward. The big book
implies about living amends in numerous sentences in the section on amends:
"There is a long period of reconstruction ahead"
"The spiritual life is not a theory we have to live it"
"There may be some wrongs we can never fully right"

So I may have been unfaithful in a relationship. The other person does not want
to talk with me, or I cannot find them, or they have died. A living amends in
that case would be making sure I am never unfaithful in another relationship
again. I.e. changing the behavior.

There is a risk in this however: there is an easy road that is not really an
amends. And a great many people in program try to use that "out." In the above
case maybe I never really actually do the work to locate the person, and just
say "ah, I will do a living amends." It is my character defects just popping up
trying to help me avoid a painful experience of confronting my demons.

I strongly recommend and believe that I am not in a place to determine if I
should be making a living amends. That is for a determination to be made with my
spiritual guide after talking with them about it and exhausting other
possibilities.

But by and large I always believe something more direct can be done, either
through a dead letter, surrogate amends, or something else. A living amends is
almost always a last resort, unless in making amends to someone that is what
they ask of me.

I remember hearing one speaker talk about stealing a bible from a priest. When
he went back to make amends to him, the priest told him that to make amends he
should read it every day. So he agreed, his living amends then was to read the
bible every day.

Blessed Be

Phillip

- - - -

From: john wikelius <justjohn1431946@yahoo.com> (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)

I have equated it to paying forward. There are those who I cannot make a direct
amend to because of time, death etc. By showing kindness and compassion to
those I encounter today I feel that is making a living amends. Also I feel that
"Actions speak louder than words" thus showing folks of my sincerety is much
more profitable that trying to convince them verbally.

- - - -

From: bob gordon <bob34g@gmail.com> (bob34g at gmail.com)

Even though I live in Canada an old timer explained it once to me this way. The
US Constitution has amendments, but when they changed the practice of politics
they did not say sorry. The 19th Amendment grants women the vote it doesn't say
sorry we didn't allow you to vote back in the old days. In the same way he told
me amends were living changed behaviour not simply apologizing for past misdeeds
_______________________
Bob Gordon
34 North Street, Guelph, ON
CANADA N1H 8N5
SMS 5193626709

- - - -

From: intuited <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at earthlink.net)

When I do a living amends I am functioning in guidance to make like the very
best for the other person(s) that I have harmed. Apologizing or showing that I
was aware and sorry isn't enough. I need to be impeccable in my present and
future behavior.

Amelia

- - - -

From: Dov W <dovwcom@gmail.com> (dovwcom at gmail.com)

Searching through Grapevine archives "living amends" is referred to not so much
as an additional requirement but as a potential alternative for direct amends in
articles since 1978.

Overeater's Anonymous mentions the idea in a recent piece of literature on
sponsorship:

page 11, lines 404-405 <<living amends that require the sponsee not only to
apologize but also to change behavior or to repair damages>>

page 12, lines 461-465 <<Most amends will require not only that a sponsee
apologize, but also change behaviors, correct wrongs and, if possible, repair
damages. These actions are often called "living amends." Sponsors and sponsees
usually discuss these thoroughly and develop a plan for future behaviors. If a
person cannot be contacted or amends cannot be made, suggest alternative actions
such as giving to others in a selfless way.>>

page 12, lines 466-467 <<we can make living amends to ourselves by making amends
to others.>>

http://www.oa.org/pdfs/sponsoring_12_steps_2010.pdf

My sponsor told me about living amends he made to his 1 year old son. The Big
Book on page 83 says "We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze
the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them." But my
sponsor's one year old son would not have understood any analysis of the past,
frank or otherwise. So my sponsor would use whatever spare time he could find to
share with his son and be the best Dad he could be.

0 -1 0 0
7196 James Bliss
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/17/2011 7:16:00 AM

Windows servers could handle this as well. The only benefit of the
Linux operating systems is that they are free. A Windows 7 professional
provides the IIS server, FTP and email capabilities.

The problem is bandwidth as you mentioned. For audio and video files
they will eat up bandwidth quickly and virtually all home connections available
will not be able to handle them reasonably. That is the reason hosting services
are best because they provide a much higher level of bandwidth than home
connections do.

Hopefully there are several members on this group who are helping with small
contributions to PayPal.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
7197 Jim M
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 3/2/2011 2:52:00 AM

Update: Silkworth.net is being moved, at the request of my previous hosting
provider (doteasy.com), to its partner company In2net.com, to handle the
traffic, including Audio and Video files. The site will be fully restored within
the next few days - give or take.

I am in agreement with Jim -- Silkworth.net is in the process of being moved to
a Virtual Private Server to handle the traffic to silkworth.net. After much
research and my own lack of experience, Shakey Mike, Mitchell K, and I felt this
was the best course of action.

Within the next few days, on the index page of silkworth.net, operational costs
for silkworth.net, as well as Pay Pal donations to date, how the funds were
used, as well as the renewal dates for the domain name and hosting services,
will be posted at all times.

For all of you who have supported silkworth.net with your generous Pay Pal
donations and other means, we -- Mike, Mitch and myself -- express much
gratitude to you for your continued support of silkworth.net. Make no mistake
about it, it could not have been done without you.


Yours in service,
Jim M

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 7:16 AM

Windows servers could handle this as well. The only benefit of the
Linux operating systems is that they are free. A Windows 7 professional provides
the IIS server, FTP and email capabilities.

The problem is bandwidth as you mentioned. For audio and video files
they will eat up bandwidth quickly and virtually all home connections available
will not be able to handle them reasonably. That is the reason hosting services
are best because they provide a much higher level of bandwidth than home
connections do.

Hopefully there are several members on this group who are helping with small
contributions to PayPal.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
7198 Dougbert
Re: Joe Quinn Joe Quinn 2/23/2011 7:03:00 PM

From Dougbert, Shakey Mike, and John Moore

- - - -

From: Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com> (dougbert8 at yahoo.com)

Hi Wendy,

For five years, I was a regular at Joe Quinn's Thurday night book study in
Laguna Beach. Joe was a crusader for the Paradoxes. You will need a second
edition to understand his passion about the Paradoxes. You cannot write about
Joe Quinn without understanding why he was so passionate about the Paradoxes.

The Professor and the Paradox starts on page 341 (second edition):
1. We surrender to Win
2. We give it away to keep it
3. We suffer to get well
4. We die to live

Although Dr Paul, addict/alcoholic started the acceptance craze from page 417, I
think A.A. did a great disservice to the Fellowship for replacing The Professor
and the Paradox with Dr. Paul's story. But I understand that A.A. was attempting
to be all things to all people to increase membership, but Joe Quinn would tell
you, A.A. is for alcoholics! I will not buy a new edition until we get back to
our roots of pure alcoholism.

In Fellowship,

Doug

- - - -

From: Shakey Mike <shakey1aa@yahoo.com> (shakey1aa at yahoo.com)

There are hundreds of thousands. That is why local archives are so important to
preserving our fellowship. We need to document their individual AA story and
their AA service involvement.

Yours in Service
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Hardcore Group
See you in Montana in September
(15th National Archives Workshop)

- - - -

From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com> (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)

Hi Wendi

I am sending to your email address a brief memoir written by my good buddy Vaun
I. in California. Vaun talks about Joe Q who 12 stepped him, in a story he
wrote for the Orange County AA publication The Lifeline.

I am also sending to you via email a copy of the poem "Touch of the Master's
Hand". Joe recited it by heart at the end of every talk he gave. I always
found it stirring.

I will write up my own recollections for you, Wendi, and get to you this week.

All the best,
John Moore
South Burlington, Vermont

- - - -

The Touch of the Master's Hand

It was battered and scarred,
And the auctioneer thought it
hardly worth his while
To waste his time on the old violin,
but he held it up with a smile.

"What am I bid, good people", he cried,
"Who starts the bidding for me?"
"One dollar, one dollar, Do I hear two?"
"Two dollars, who makes it three?"
"Three dollars once, three dollars twice, going for three,"

But, No,
From the room far back a gray bearded man
Came forward and picked up the bow,
Then wiping the dust from the old violin
And tightening up the strings,
He played a melody, pure and sweet
As sweet as the angel sings.

The music ceased and the auctioneer
With a voice that was quiet and low,
Said "What now am I bid for this old violin?"
As he held it aloft with its' bow.

"One thousand, one thousand, Do I hear two?"
"Two thousand, Who makes it three?"
"Three thousand once, three thousand twice,
Going and gone", said he.

The audience cheered,
But some of them cried,
"We just don't understand."
"What changed its' worth?"
Swift came the reply.
"The Touch of the Masters Hand."

And many a man with life out of tune
All battered with bourbon and gin
Is auctioned cheap to a thoughtless crowd
Much like that old violin

A mess of pottage, a glass of wine,
A game and he travels on.
He is going once, he is going twice,
He is going and almost gone.

But the Master comes,
And the foolish crowd never can quite understand,
The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought
By the Touch of the Masters' Hand.

-- Myra Brooks Welch

_____________________________

Message #7186
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7186
Fri Feb 18, 2011
From <wenditurner@gmail.com> (wenditurner at gmail.com)

Hello,

I am doing an article on Joe Quinn for an alano club newsletter.

Joe Quinn got sober in Los Angeles on December 21st, 1952, and passed away on
July 25th 2000.

Folks are telling me Joe spoke all over the country and was known all over. I
have had a great opportunity to talk to many whose lives he touched.

I thought I would ask if there are any oldtimers our there with additional
stories.

Thank you,

Wendi

0 -1 0 0
7199 mg2131
Re: changing the 12 steps -- Big Book vs. 12-and-12 changing the 12 steps -- Big Book vs. 12-and-12 2/24/2011 12:11:00 PM

The description of HOW WE WORK the 12 steps was changed when the 12 & 12 was
written.

I work the steps from the Big Book, I haven't worked them from the 12 & 12.
However, I have read the 12 & 12 and to me, the differences that immediately pop
to mind (without having it in front of me to check) are that step 1 is different
in the 12 & 12, and step 4 is pretty radically different as well. So the change
in how they are done, what actions are taken, would date to the 12&12, at least,
as it can be tracked with written documentation.

I feel like this was a pretty garbled response, but maybe it can give you a
starting point.

Jen

0 -1 0 0
7200 intuited
Re: changing the 12 steps changing the 12 steps 2/24/2011 12:30:00 AM

From: Amelia (intuited), Allan Gengler, paddymur, Rob M. (hjfree), and Bill Lash
(barefootbill)

- - - -

From: intuited <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at earthlink.net)

I apologize. I could have been clearer about my question on changing the steps.
After the Big Book was published were there ongoing disagreements about the
wording in the steps? Did some meetings change them, and if so, how was this
handled by local intergroups or GSO? Did the General Service Conference
develop any policy to deal with local groups who might change them? I am aware
of two groups who have significantly revised steps and I am curious about the
history of the phenomenon. Hope this is clearer. Thanks, Amelia

- - - -

From: "Allan Gengler" <agengler@wk.net> (agengler at wk.net)

Steps 3, 7, 8 and 12 were changed from the original manuscript.

Is that what you mean?

- - - -

From: "paddymur" <paddymur@yahoo.com> (paddymur at yahoo.com)

Amelia--

They changed the 12th Step from "having had a Spiritual experience ..." to read
"having had a Spiritual awakening..." The feeling was that not everyone would
have and 'experience' like Bill W. did. Most of us get it gradually.

--Pat

- - - -

From: "hjfree2001" <hjfree@fuse.net> (hjfree at fuse.net)

I was at a meeting in a suburb north of Baltimore, when they read the 12 steps
they substituted substances for alcohol in step 1, I was so disheartened I
almost left.

I have been to meetings in 45 of the 50 states and it is a comfort to walk in,
be able reminisce with a group of strangers and have the same readings,
everywhere but that one.

Blessed2BSober

rob m

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> (barefootbill at optonline.net)

Here is a current scary example of changing the Steps:

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Warning_Non_AA_Groups_Infiltrati\
ng_AA.pdf


Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

0 -1 0 0
7201 Norman Gin
Re: changing the 12 steps changing the 12 steps 2/24/2011 11:10:00 AM

From Norman Gin and Dougbert

- - - -

From: Norman Gin <ncgin@swbell.net> (ncgin at swbell.net)

I'm not sure if this addresses your question, but I recently met a man who is
active in Native American Indian GSO

http://www.naigso-aa.org/index.htm

The history of NAIGSO, meeting formats, as well as " The Indian Twelve Steps -
Walking the Red Road" and other information can be found under "Site Map"

Norm

- - - -

From: Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com> (dougbert8 at yahoo.com)

Amelia,

Try http://www.aa-freethinkers.org -- they have rewriten the Steps at
http://www.aa-freethinkers.org/steps2.shtml

In Fellowship,

Doug

AGNOSTIC 12 STEPS

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
unmanageable.
2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our
awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the
collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the
exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so
would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly
admitted it.
11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our
understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that
way of life.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to
carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.

______________________________

Message #7191 Wed Feb 23, 2011
from "amelialoomis" <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at earthlink.net)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7191

Does anyone know of the 12-steps being changed in our history? This could be
individual meetings, regions, or meeting directory policies. After all this time
there must be some documentation of the struggles on this.

Thanks, Amelia

0 -1 0 0
7202 Glenn Chesnut
Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 3/2/2011 4:32:00 PM

Since 1976, the wording of the twelve steps cannot be changed without consulting
all the registered AA groups worldwide, asking them to respond in writing. At
least three quarters of those responding must approve the change before it can
be made.

See "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005

As Arthur puts it: "The Conference Advisory Action makes any change whatsoever
to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even
so much as adding or removing a comma)."

See also Message #5700 from "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

"3/4 of the registered groups permission" applies to the Steps, Traditions and
Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter (i.e. the 6 "Warranties" which
are also Concept 12) per advisory action of the 1976 Conference (which also
approved the 3rd edition Big Book).

- - - -

A further comment from Glenn C: I would like to add that the interpretation of
what the twelve steps and twelve traditions mean cannot be done by narrow word
chopping and pseudo-logical arguments. They have to be interpreted in terms of
the historical precedents which were set back in the early AA period.

So for example, it is illegitimate to try to argue that, since the steps
referred to "God as we understood Him," everyone in AA had to use the word "God"
at all times, and that no one in AA was allowed even to use a term like "Higher
Power," let alone be an atheist or agnostic. The reason why this was not valid
was because the historical tradition records that the words "as we understood
Him" were inserted to allow the early AA member who was an atheist to remain a
member of the group.

And similar ground rules apply to the wording of the Twelve Traditions. What
specific kinds of things were actually regarded as anonymity breaks in earliest
AA history? We must look at the actual examples of things that were forbidden,
BUT ALSO things that nobody worried about. What was meant by a "promoter"
back during that period (remembering the Rule 62 story)? Or in other words, in
the historical context of that period, "attraction rather than promotion" was
not a rule forbidding AA members from getting articles about AA put in their
local newspapers and that sort of thing (as long as pictures of their faces and
their last names were kept out of it, of course!) What specific things happened
which Tradition Six was directed against? (In this case, it was things like Bill
W. and Dr. Bob's names being put on the letterhead of Marty Mann's National
Council on Alcoholism as official supporters of her group.)

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

P.S. But to answer another part of Amelia's question, what can actually be done
to an individual AA group which tries to re-word one of the twelve steps? The
worst sanction that could be applied would be to remove the list of that group's
meetings from the local intergroup published meeting schedule. And personally,
I've never known that to be done to an AA group.

In AA, we DO NOT burn people at the stake, or chop off their heads in the town
square, or hold Salem-type witch trials!

Nor -- my own personal opinion here -- do sensible AA people stand around
conducting nit-picking arguments over things like how many angels can stand on
the head of a pin, or trying to invent dozens of new rules about exactly how you
are allowed to introduce yourself at a meeting, or whether an AA conference can
accept a dollar (to help pay for their coffee) from Al-Anons who are also
attending, and that sort of thing. This last paragraph is just me though!

- - - -

CHANGES TO STEP TWELVE:

See also Message 2258 from Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>
(jblair at videotron.ca)

Changes to the Big Book 1st Edition - 2nd Printing:

>> P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.
>> Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.
>> Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.

- - - -

CHANGES TO STEP TWELVE:

The series of changes in the wording of Step 12:

From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Changing "those" to "these" in 12th step wording

In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual
awakening" and the term "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the
result of those steps."

An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was also added to the Big Book in the
2nd printing of the 1st edition. This was done because many members thought they
had to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the
"educational variety."

There is a very brief mention of the Step 12 wording change from "experience" to
"awakening" in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter "Religion Looks at Alcoholics
Anonymous" by Father Ed Dowling (pg 256). Outside of it, I have been unable to
find any further references to the changes in AA literature.

In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of the 2nd
edition Big Book. The term "as the result of those steps" was restored to its
original form of "as the result of these steps."

The 1976 General Service Conference approved publication of the 3rd edition Big
Book.

The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955 provision of the Conference Charter to
specify that any change to the Steps, Traditions or Concepts and 6 Warranties of
Article 12 of the General Service Conference Charter, would require written
approval of 75% of the AA Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes
any change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a
virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma).


Cheers
Arthur

- - - -

Message 3677 from "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>
(ArtSheehan at msn.com) Sept. 4, 2006

There were a number of significant changes made to the 2nd printing of the 1st
edition Big Book:

In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the wording of Step Twelve changed. The term
"spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and "as the result
of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." The story "Lone
Endeavor" (of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth Hock) was removed. Appendix
II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Many members thought they had to have a
sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns
Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences developed
slowly over time and were of the "educational variety." William James, by the
way did not explicitly use the term "educational variety" in his 1902 book
titled "The Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study In Human Nature."

0 -1 0 0
7203 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 2/23/2011 11:49:00 PM

How much of the story of the AA treatment center and Wombley's Clapboard Factory
is factual? Who was the super promoter, what town did this happen in and what
happened to the building? It seems likely that Bill was talking about a
clapboard factory in the generic sense, but what about the three story building
and rule 62?

I apologize if I sound daft, but Bill seems to occasionally take liberties. Is
this an example? I did find this:

http://chipsontheweb.net/memchips/wombleys_clapboard.pdf

Chuck

0 -1 0 0
7204 Cindy Miller
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 2/24/2011 9:28:00 AM

In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon
Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics
Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)

This building had been purchased and opened as a Clubhouse in the early 40's.
(One of the first--it was a big deal.) As I recall, it had 3 floors -- one with
restaurant/catering facilities, one with a bowling alley -- and of course,
meeting rooms. It was said that this was the model AA complex talked about in
Tradition 4. Could some North Jersey member corroborate/correct this info?

North Jersey has GREAT Archives. Saw the actual "Rule 62" card displayed there,
as well as many fliers for events with Bill W. in attendance.

In service,
Cindy Miller

0 -1 0 0
7205 John Lee
Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 3/2/2011 5:25:00 PM

Glenn,

Since Conference Actions aren't binding on future Conferences, I assume the
Conference could always revoke the 75% group approval rule for changing the
Steps and Traditions. It's not like the U.S. Constitution, where an Amendment is
forever, unless it's repealed by another Amendment or by a Constitutional
Convention.

John Lee
Pittsburgh

0 -1 0 0
7206 Art Boudreault
Re: Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano 3/3/2011 1:45:00 PM

Cindy said: "Workshop held at the 'Alanon Association' club in Newark, NJ. (This
name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not
been founded yet.)"

As a matter of history, when Lois W. proposed using the word Alanon, Bill
suggested the dash (-) to differentiate these from the A.A. "Alanon"
associations. He then wrote to the A.A. Alanon associations and asked them to
drop the last "n," creating the A.A. "Alano clubs" which we know today.

Art Boudreault

0 -1 0 0
7207 Ken Ring
Re: Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano 3/4/2011 12:28:00 PM

What is the source of this information about where the term "Alano" club came
from?

- - - -

Message #7204 from Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net> (cm53 at earthlink.net)

In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon
Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics
Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)

Message #7206 from "Art Boudreault" <artb@netwiz.net> (artb at netwiz.net)

Cindy said: "Workshop held at the 'Alanon Association' club in Newark, NJ. (This
name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not
been founded yet.)"

As a matter of history, when Lois W. proposed using the word Alanon, Bill
suggested the dash (-) to differentiate these from the A.A. "Alanon"
associations. He then wrote to the A.A. Alanon associations and asked them to
drop the last "n," creating the A.A. "Alano clubs" which we know today.

0 -1 0 0
7208 MattD
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 3/5/2011 4:42:00 PM

In an interview with Tom P. — who had worked as an editor on the manuscript for
the 12 & 12 — he said Rule 62 was referring to Hazelden.

Matt D.

- - - -

A question from GC the moderator: was Hazelden big enough at that time (1952 to
1953) to be a match for the story in the 12-and-12? See
http://hindsfoot.org/kbs5.html for a photo of Hazelden taken in 1955.

It was just a big farmhouse. There was no third floor. And a bowling alley?
Maybe, but .... does anyone have any information about whether they could have
had all of this in that old farmhouse in 1952 and 1953?

- - - -

See Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pp. 147-148:

"Beginning on the ground floor there would be a club; in the second story they
would sober up drunks and hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck
would house and educational project - quite controversial, of course. In
imagination the gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three
would do for a start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's
money. Believe it or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea."

"Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his
eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could
issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication
and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the
promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly
painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town.
Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one
rules and regulations were adopted."

"But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. confusion replaced
serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if
they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe
with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care
of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three
floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming
club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized,
then graduated to education on the third floor."

0 -1 0 0
7209 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden si... Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden si... 3/2/2011 5:07:00 PM

Glenn C. wrote: "In AA, we DO NOT burn people at the stake, or chop off their
heads in the town square, or hold Salem-type witch trials!

Baileygc23@aol.com responds: "Please do not give the faithful hints."

0 -1 0 0
7210 Jim F.
Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 3/3/2011 11:57:00 AM

From Jim F. and Jon Markle

- - - -

From: "Jim F." <f.jim53@rocketmail.com> (f.jim53 at rocketmail.com)

The 4th Tradition provides a huge loophole for any group not wanting to observe
or abide by the other tradtions. The

4th tradition effectively grants each group autonomy and the "right to be
wrong."

The steps are also only suggested "guides to progress."

In AA it's important to note that all suggestions are given for free, the only
ones you may have to pay for are the ones

you don't take.

Jim F.

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <jon.markle@mac.com> (jon.markle at mac.com)

Some meetings in the Cleveland/Akron area do have some different words in some
of the Steps and Traditions. When I first attended them years ago, as a visitor
when I went to visit my parents who live in Cleveland, I was very surprised and
caught completely off guard by surprise. Imagine this relative newbee's shock!
LOL However it forced me to do some homework. I am glad I did not insert my
foot in my mouth. It forced me to study our AA history. I have not been
offended by those minor changes for years now. In fact, I have become
accustomed to the meetings there, their different format, and the distinctive
"flavor" of somewhat (to me) rigidity they have toward working the steps,
studying the traditions, and working the program as it is written (even though a
couple of words are different). I really appreciate the attitude of gratitude
instilled in me for our very colorful AA history, with all it's chinks. <GRIN>

Jon Markle
Raleigh, North Carolina

0 -1 0 0
7211 larry
Can any of Bill W''s writings be changed? Can any of Bill W''s writings be changed? 3/2/2011 5:11:00 PM

I hate to ask what may be an ignorant question, but it is my understanding that
there was a conference action that there could be no changes to any of Bill's
writings. Is this correct?
Larry

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator: Well, actually, no. In theory, the wording could be
changed on Bill W's writings. According to Arthur S's research, a conference
action stating that no changes could be made was proposed in 1996, but no
advisory action resulted. The next year, the Trustees Committee on Literature
also declined to take action on that proposal.

See Message #5700 from "Arthur S"
<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5700?threaded=1&l=1

ARTHUR SAID:

<<There is no such Conference advisory action regarding the need for permission
of 3/4 of the registered groups to change Dr Bob's Story (or the Big Book or any
other book). The 1995 Conference Literature Committee recommended that: "The
first 164 pages of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Preface, the
Forewords, 'The Doctor's Opinion,' 'Doctor Bob's Nightmare' and the Appendices
remain as is." A floor action was submitted to the 1996 Conference to: "Propose
a Conference resolution that the 46th General Service Conference recommend to
the Fellowship of A.A.s of the world that the first 164 pages of the Big Book,
Alcoholics Anonymous, the Preface, the Forewards (sic), "The Doctor's Opinion,"
"Doctor Bob's Nightmare" and the Appendices be unchanged without approval of
three quarters of groups of the world." It did not result in an advisory action.
The 1997 Trustees Committee on Literature also reviewed the request and took no
action.>>

<<Note: the "3/4 of the registered groups permission" applies to the Steps,
Traditions and Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter (i.e. the 6
"Warranties" which are also Concept 12) per advisory action of the 1976
Conference (which also approved the 3rd edition Big Book).>>

0 -1 0 0
7212 CloydG
Changes in the first 164 pp. of the Big Book Changes in the first 164 pp. of the Big Book 3/3/2011 7:55:00 AM

From Clyde G., Glenn C., and gadgetsdad

- - - -

From: Clyde G. <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

In a follow up on John Lee's question, I had been told that the original text --
the first 164 pages of the AA Big Book -- was in the hands of the Trustees. Is
this so?

I was told that this was done so that the foundation of AA was preserved for
generations to follow, so that others whom came into AA could follow in the
footsteps of the founders for ever and ever.

The job of Conferences was to clarify or correct errors in individual printings
from year to year. I was also told that this was Bill and Bob's wishes prior to
turning AA over to World Services. Is this so?

In love and Service,
Clyde G.
California

- - - -

From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Clyde,

Well, Arthur S. is the top AA expert on this all-important area of AA history,
so I'm just going by what he turned up in his research. It seems to be the case
that it is still possible for the Conference to make changes in the first 164
pages of the Big Book.

See Arthur's message no. 7211 for more about this:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7211

And if you go back through the messages that have been posted in the
AAHistoryLovers, you will in fact find that small changes have been made even in
the first 164 pages. They are usually extremely minor changes. The message from
gadgetsdad below is one typical example.

Glenn C.

- - - -

From: gadgetsdad <gadgetsdad@yahoo.com> (gadgetsdad at yahoo.com)

All 16 printings of the first edition and the first six printings of the second
edition had the phrase "program of recovery" capitalized [page 59 in the present
fourth edition]. After exhaustive research the answer I have to this change was
that it was and I quote "an editorial change." There was not a conference or
Trustee action that made this change.

0 -1 0 0
7213 Jon Markle
Re: Big Book vs. 12-and-12 on the twelve steps Big Book vs. 12-and-12 on the twelve steps 3/3/2011 9:46:00 PM

Original message #7199 from "mg2131"
<jamirabella@yahoo.com> (jamirabella at yahoo.com)

The description of HOW WE WORK the 12 steps was changed when the 12 & 12 was
written.

I work the steps from the Big Book, I haven't worked them from the 12 & 12.
However, I have read the 12 & 12 and to me, the differences that immediately pop
to mind (without having it in front of me to check) are that step 1 is different
in the 12 & 12, and step 4 is pretty radically different as well. So the change
in how they are done, what actions are taken, would date to the 12&12, at least,
as it can be tracked with written documentation.

Jen

- - - -

From Jon Markle <jon.markle@mac.com>
(jon.markle at mac.com)

The steps are *PRECISELY* the same, word for word in both books.

The *ESSAYS* following each of the Steps are different. Which was INTENTIONAL.
Bill W. had a little more time under his belt when he penned the 12x12, thus he
had a vastly additional ESH [Experience, Strength, Hope] on what to say in
regard to how they might be approached.

The 12x12 was never meant to replace the Big Book. The 12x12 was, however,
meant to augment the Big Book, and give a more broad perspective and instruction
about the process of working the Steps, because the author had a better
understanding of How it Works by then.

In the Foreword, pg 17, of the 12x12: "The book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became
the basic text of the Fellowship, and it still is. This present volume [the
12x12] proposes to broaden and deepen the understanding of the Twelve Steps as
first written in the earlier work."

So, we can look at the 12x12 as adjunct to our study of the steps, not a
replacement for the Big Book (by any stretch of the imagination).

Jon Markle
Raleigh, North Carolina

P.S. It was here on AAHistoryLovers, years ago, I believe, that I learned it was
NOT A REQUIREMENT for any AA group to adhere or subscribe to the 12 Traditions.
It's one of those autonomous things that makes AA so uniquely different from any
other system of people. No one can force us to sign on to those Traditions if
we do not want to.

At first I was in total denial, disbelief; appalled at this suggestion. Now,
I'm not so sure about this "loophole". Seeing how the Traditions are somehow
used, in some areas, by some groups, to abuse and beat up on other groups.

We alcoholics, even though sober, can be SOB's.

- - - -

From: Robt Woodson <wdywdsn@sbcglobal.net> (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net)

A quick reading of the Forward to the Twelve and Twelve (p.15) can clear up a
lot of problems here...those are not the steps; they are essays on the steps.
The essays there were directed at our membership, primarily at questions asked
by sponsors about the Twelve Steps;, and also, at others outside of our
fellowship (who were asking a lot of questions too). It was perceived that they
too might benefit from a knowledge of our Twelve Steps. The Steps themselves
remain in the Big Book. A simple case in point or "test" if you will ...you
can't work the Fourth Step from the Twelve and Twelve because it doesn't tell
you how to do it. I'll hazard a personal opinion...If you want to confuse a
newcomer...send them to the Twelve and Twelve.

As a way of presenting and elucidating our Twelve Traditions on the other hand,
the information there is invaluable.

Felices 24 Horas,
Woody in Akron

- - - -

From: Tim DeRan <timderan@msn.com>
(timderan at msn.com)

Keep something in mind, it is known fact that there a lot of people in
Cleveland, Ohio who think that Clarence S founded Alcoholics Anonymous in
Cleveland, that he wrote the Big Book and that the first meetings of AA took
place in Cleveland, Ohio. So that loose play with wording just might have
something to do with their thinking they are the source.

Sometimes changing words and ideas have confused more than a few members whether
new or old. Might be best to stick to that which works.

Just for a few grins, there are some other places in Ohio that when asked
members of AA in those places will tell that AA was really founded there also.

Just saying.

tmd

0 -1 0 0
7214 intuited
Re: changing the 12 steps changing the 12 steps 3/8/2011 11:13:00 AM

Thanks, Norman and Doug. These references were very helpful. The Indian Twelve
Steps and their meeting formats were adapted to cultural norms and changed the
name God to Great Spirit. Their meeting format includes the reading of both the
original AA 12-steps as well as theirs. This allows the members to resonate with
a broader potential. I'm guessing GSO doesn't have a problem with these since
they use the AA ones also.

The freethinkers use the Agnostic 12 steps taken from the NYC website,
http://agnosticaanyc.org/ In contrast, these 12-steps remove any energy beyond
the self except the wisdom of others. I believe this is an inferred rejection
of love, consciousness, intuition or power beyond the self.

I would have trouble referring a newbie struggling with their concept of divine
transformation to such meetings. Alcoholism is a fatal disease, not to be taken
lightly. Please convince me otherwise.

By the way, I found this website interesting when searching on
epistemology and intuition: http://consc.net/mindpapers/5.1i.1

Last year I met a man at a shaman conference who was working the shamanic 12
steps. Thought some of you might find these interesting. I don't know if they
are listed locally in any directories. I have ordered a book on Shamanic
Breathwork and the 12 steps to see what more I can glean.

12-STEPS OF SHAMANIC RECOVERY AND DISCOVERY

1. We accept that we are powerless over our addictive, compulsive and
codependent patterns of thought and behavior – that in the attempt to fill the
void rather than embrace it, our lives have become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than anything we ever knew we could
access within ourselves can open us to love and nurture us through our path of
recovery and discovery.

3. Knowing that unconditional love is the healer we made a decision to surrender
our will and our lives to the care of an inner Greater Power as we understand
it.

4. Made a loving and fearless inventory of ourselves.

5. We share our inventory with our Greater Power and another person without the
need for self-recrimination, knowing that in naming our shadow we will open our
hearts.

6. Were entirely ready to have our Greater Power remove all these obstacles and
give up the need to be perfect.

7. Humbly asked our Greater Power to help us let go of all our distractions from
the divine that manifest in negative and self destructive patterns of thought
and behavior.

8. Made a list of all the persons we have harmed while attempting to fill the
void, and became willing to make amends to them all, forgiving them and
ourselves.

9. Made direct amends to those we have harmed except when to do so would injure
them or others. When making direct amends would cause harm, we make the amends
through a ritual or ceremony that honors the other and ourselves.

10. Continue to take personal inventory daily, as an act of reverence,
committing to our personal growth and when we are wrong, promptly admit it and
lovingly accept responsibility for our mistakes. We also admitted when our
boundaries have been violated and choose to fearlessly and lovingly tell the
truth to free ourselves and others from the bondage of inauthentic living.

11. Grow through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with our
inner Greater Power, praying only for knowledge of our Greater Power’s will
for us and the love and strength to carry that out in our daily lives by the
practice of acting from love rather than fear.

12. As a result of these steps, we reach a greater understanding of our true
selves and are able to carry the message of recovery and discovery in our daily
lives. We may then live the passionate dance of co-creating our lives through
the synthesis of our will and the will and wisdom of our inner Divine Spirit.

Adapted from the teaching of Alcoholics Anonymous, Codependents
Anonymous and Humans Anonymous.

This expansion of the 12 Steps is lovingly offered from the
participants and staff of Venus Rising to give hope and strength to
anyone looking for soulful sobriety.

0 -1 0 0
7215 Bryan Reid
Lackland-Long Beach method of alcoholism treatment Lackland-Long Beach method of alcoholism treatment 3/7/2011 9:14:00 PM

Message #7208 contained a reference to a photo taken of the Hazelden treatment
center in 1955:

http://hindsfoot.org/kbs5.html

That web page discussed the "Lackland method" with what I consider to be an
extraordinary success ratio. I'm totally ignorant of the Lackland method and
would be most appreciative if someone could steer me in the right direction to
learn more about it.

Bryan
Highway 92 Group
in Sierra Vista, Arizona.

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator:

In early AA, the principal source of tension was not those who believed in God
vs. those who were atheists. There weren't very many real atheists during the
early period -- one or two or so that we know by name, seem to have been all
they were.

The tension was actually between those who emphasized the spiritual aspects of
the program and those who stressed the psychological side of the program.

An early AA figure named Sgt. Bill Swegan ended up as the principal spokesman
for the side which wished to work AA almost completely as a psychological
program. They were not classical Freudians (who claimed that all our problems
went back to infancy -- alcoholics were people who didn't get enough breast
feeding, etc.). They instead worked on the basis of the kind of psychology and
psychiatry that was taught by Adler (Bill W's mother was an Adlerian therapist),
Karen Horney, and Erik Erikson.

Their theory was that most alcoholics underwent some kind of trauma during their
childhood (they didn't have the right clothes to fit in at school, one of their
parents was an alcoholic, one of their parents died, they were the victims of
abuse, or whatever) where they stopped developing emotionally past that age. So
you had a grown man or woman still throwing two-year-old temper tantrums or
acting like an extremely obnoxious and out-of-control thirteen-year-old or
something of the sort. Sometimes the alcoholic drinking started at that age,
sometimes it did not begin until they were older.

But they needed something like a good family -- one filled with wise father and
mother figures, people who could act like good older brothers and sisters, and
wise old grandparents and uncles and aunts -- who could gently and lovingly help
them grow up emotionally. This was what the AA fellowship did -- it was the AA
fellowship which healed.*

You can read a short version of their teaching about alcoholism in Kenneth G.
Merrill, "Drunks Are a Mess," published in a magazine for recovering alcoholics
in prison, as part of a program (which he had himself helped start) for
alcoholic convicts at the Indiana state penitentiary at Michigan City -- the
second most famous early AA prison group, which had a 75% success rate when Ken
and his people from South Bend were sponsoring it).

http://hindsfoot.org/nsbend2.html

Also see http://hindsfoot.org/NSBend3.html

and http://hindsfoot.org/NSBend1.html

It is called the Lackland-Long Beach method, because Bill Swegan developed the
full-fledged version of the recovery program at Lackland Air Force Base in San
Antonio, Texas, in 1953. Two other famous figures from AA history --
psychiatrist Dr. Joseph J. Zuska and AA member Dick Jewell -- gave Swegan's
method further development in the mid 1960's at the Long Beach Naval Station in
California.

Nancy Olson (the founder of the AAHistoryLovers) talked about Joe Zuska and Dick
Jewell in her book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends":

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

Joe Zuska is still to this day one of the truly great and most beloved AA heroes
in that part of California.

Bill Swegan wrote about his own experiences in a book which was originally
entitled "On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program."

It is currently being re-issued in a second edition, to be entitled simply "The
Psychology of Alcoholism."

THE BLURB ON THE BACK OF THE BOOK WILL READ:

=====================================
William E. Swegan (“Sgt. Bill”) was the major spokesman for the psychological
wing of early Alcoholics Anonymous—that group within the newborn A.A. movement
of the 1930’s, 40’s and 50’s which stressed the psychotherapeutic side of the
twelve step program instead of the spiritual side. This book is Swegan’s major
work, in which he lays out the psychiatric theories which formed the foundation
of that variety of A.A. thought. He also talks about his association with Mrs.
Marty Mann, Yev Gardner, E. M. Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies,
Bill Dotson (A.A. No. 3) and Searcy Whaley, in addition to recording his
memories of the year he spent observing Sister Ignatia at work at St. Thomas
Hospital in Akron.

In 1953 Sgt. Bill teamed up with famous American psychiatrist Louis Jolyon
“Jolly” West at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, to develop a
method of alcoholism treatment (given further development in the mid 1960s by
Dr. Joseph J. Zuska and Dick Jewell at Long Beach Naval Station) called the
Lackland-Long Beach Model. It became one of the three basic types of
A.A.-oriented alcoholism treatment program, along with the Minnesota Model and
Sister Ignatia’s more spiritually oriented approach.

Sgt. Bill does not just talk psychiatric theories in this book. He uses his own
life story to show how traumatic loss, poverty, inadequate self-esteem, envy,
self-pity and rage can drive children and youths into isolationism, rebellion,
self-sabotage, and ultimately the descent into uncontrollable alcoholism or drug
addiction. But in his humanistic understanding of the twelve step program he
also shows us how to make use of the healing power of the spirit of Love and
Service to our fellow human beings to restore ourselves to new life.
=====================================

For more information see:

Bill Swegan's article on "The Psychology of Alcoholism" at
http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html

The section on William E. Swegan in the middle of the page at
http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html

http://hindsfoot.org/BSV01Thr.html


____________________________

*On the healing role of the AA fellowship, see also

http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html

and http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html

0 -1 0 0
7216 David
Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/8/2011 9:18:00 PM

I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's
GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA.

My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if
it does exist, where could I find a copy of it?

0 -1 0 0
7217 Jeff
Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/10/2011 9:14:00 AM

I can't vouch for the provenance of this letter, but here it is:

Some thoughts regarding our relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous

WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #13

This article was generated by the Narcotics Anonymous World Service Board of
Trustees in November 1985 in response to the needs of their fellowship. This
bulletin was revised during the 1995-1996 conference year.


The question of just how Narcotics Anonymous relates to all other fellowships
and organizations is one which may generate controversy within our fellowship.
In spite of the fact that we have a stated policy of "cooperation, not
affiliation" with outside organizations confusion remains. One such sensitive
issue involves our relationship to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Letters have been received by the World Service Board of Trustees asking a
variety of questions about this relationship.

Narcotics Anonymous is modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous. Nearly every NA
community in existence has leaned to some degree on AA in its formative stages.
Our relation-ship with that fellowship over the years has been very real and
dynamic. Our fellowship itself sprang from the turmoil within AA over what to
do with the addicts knocking on its doors. We will look at our roots for some
perspective on our current relationship to AA.

Bill W, one of AA's co-founders, often said that one of AA's greatest strengths
is its single-minded focus on one thing and one thing only. By limiting its
primary purpose to carrying the message to alcoholics, and avoiding all other
activities, AA is able to do that one thing supremely well. The atmosphere of
identification is preserved by that purity of focus, and alcoholics get help.

From very early on, AA was confronted by a perplexing problem: "What do we do
with drug addicts? We want to keep our focus on alcohol so the alcoholic hears
the message, but these addicts come in here talking about drugs, inadvertently
weakening our atmosphere of identification." The steps were written, the Big
Book was written—what were they supposed to do, rewrite it all? Allow the
atmosphere of identification to get blurry so that no one got a clear sense of
belonging? Kick these dying people back out into the streets? The problem must
have been a tremendous one for them.

When they finally studied the problem carefully and took a stand in their
literature, the solution they outlined possessed their characteristic common
sense and wisdom. They pledged their support in a spirit of "cooperation, not
affiliation." This farsighted solution to a difficult concern paved the way for
the development of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship.

But still, the problem that they wished to avoid would have to be addressed by
any group that tried to adapt AA's program of recovery to drug addicts. How do
you achieve the atmosphere of identification so necessary for surrender and
recovery if you let all different kinds of addicts in? Can someone with a
heroin problem relate to someone with an alcohol or marijuana or Valium problem?
How will you ever achieve the unity that the First Tradition says is necessary
for recovery? Our fellowship inherited a tough dilemma.

For some perspective on how we handled that dilemma, one more look at AA history
is helpful. Another thing Bill W. frequently wrote and spoke about was what he
called the "tenstrike" of AA—the wording of the Third and Eleventh Steps. The
whole area of spirituality versus religion was as perplexing for them as unity
was for us. Bill liked to recount that the simple addition of the words "as we
understood Him" after the word "God" killed that controversy in one chop. An
issue that had the potential to divide and destroy AA was converted into the
cornerstone of the program by that simple turn of phrase.

As the founders of Narcotics Anonymous adapted our steps, they came up with a
"tenstrike" of perhaps equal importance. Rather than converting the First Step
in a natural, logical way ("we admitted that we were powerless over drugs..."),
they made a radical change in that step. They wrote, "We admitted that we were
powerless over our addiction..." Drugs are a varied group of substances, the
use of any of which is but a symptom of our disease. When addicts gather and
focus on drugs, they are usually focusing on their differences, because each of
us used a different drug or combination of drugs. The one thing that we all
share is the disease of addiction. With that single turn of a phrase, the
foundation of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship was laid.

Our First Step gives us one focus: our addiction. The wording of Step One also
takes the focus of our powerlessness off the symptom and places it on the
disease itself. The phrase "powerless over a drug" does not go far enough for
most of us in recovery -- the desire to use has been removed -- but "powerless
over our addiction" is as relevant to the oldtimer as it is to the newcomer.
Our addiction begins to resurface and cause unmanageability in our thoughts and
feelings whenever we become complacent in our program of recovery. This process
has nothing to do with "drug of choice." We guard against the recurrence of our
drug use by applying our spiritual principles, before a relapse. Our First Step
applies regardless of drug of choice and length of clean time. With this
"tenstrike" as its foundation, NA has begun to flourish as a major worldwide
organization, clearly focusing on addiction..

As any NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles
(particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with
its alcohol-oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift
the focus away from specific drugs, don't mix well. When we try to mix them, we
find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along! When our
members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living
"clean and sober," the clarity of the NA message is blurred. The implication in
this language is that there are two diseases, that one drug is separate from
another, so a separate set of terms is needed when discussing addiction. At
first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full
impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion.

It has become clear that our common identification, our unity, and our full
surrender as addicts depends on a clear understanding of our most fundamental
principles: We are powerless over a disease that gets progressively worse when
we use any drug. It does not matter what drug was at the center for us when we
arrived. Any drug we use will release our disease all over again. We recover
from the disease of addiction by applying our Twelve Steps. Our steps are
uniquely worded to carry this message clearly, so the rest of our language of
recovery must be consistent with our steps. We cannot mix these fundamental
principles with those of our parent fellowship without crippling our own
message.

Both fellowships have a Sixth Tradition for a reason: to keep each one from
being diverted from its own primary purpose. Because of the inherent need of a
Twelve Step fellowship to focus on one thing and one thing only, so that it can
do that one thing supremely well, each Twelve Step fellowship must stand alone,
unaffiliated with everything else. It is in our nature to be separate, to feel
separate, and use a separate set of recovery terms, because we each have a
separate, unique primary purpose. The focus of AA is on the alcoholic, and we
ought to respect that fellowship's perfect right to adhere to its own traditions
and protect its focus. If we cannot use language consistent with that, we ought
not go to their meetings and undermine that atmosphere. In the same way, we NA
members ought to respect our own primary purpose and identify ourselves at NA
meetings simply as addicts, and share in a way that keeps our message clear.

A casual, cursory glance at AA's success in delivering recovery to alcoholics
over the years makes it abundantly clear that theirs is a successful program.
Their literature, their service structure, the quality of their members'
recovery, their sheer numbers, the respect they enjoy from society—these things
speak for themselves. Our members ought not embarrass us by adopting a "we're
better than them" posture. That can only be counterproductive.

As a fellowship, we must continue to strive to move forward by not stubbornly
clinging to one radical extreme or the other. Our members who have been
unintentionally blurring the NA message by using drug-specific language such as
"sobriety," "alcoholic," "clean and sober," "dope fiend," etc., could help by
identifying simply and clearly as addicts, and using the words "clean," "clean
time," and "recovery," which imply no particular substance. We all could help
by referring to only our own literature at meetings, thereby avoiding any
implied endorsement or affiliation. Our principles stand on their own. For the
sake of our development as a fellowship and the personal recovery of our
members, our approach to the problem of addiction must shine through clearly in
what we say and do at meetings.

Our members who have used these arguments to rationalize an anti-AA stand,
thereby alienating many sorely needed stable members, would do well to
re-evaluate and reconsider the effects of that kind of behavior. Narcotics
Anonymous is a spiritual fellowship. Love, tolerance, patience, and cooperation
are essential if we are to live our principles.

Let's devote our energies to our personal spiritual development through our own
Twelve Steps.

Let's carry our own message clearly. There's a lot of work to be done, and we
need each other if we are to be effective. Let's move forward in a spirit of NA
unity.

(Reprinted from Newsline Vol. 2, No. 6.)


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "David" <Inkman3@...> wrote:
>
> I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to
AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can
join AA.
>
> My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And
if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it?
>

0 -1 0 0
7218 jax760
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 3/8/2011 8:05:00 PM

THE STORY OF ALANON OF NEW JERSEY

Cindy's suggestion is an interesting one. There are many similarities in the
story and the narration of "Rule 62" in the 12 & 12. This will require some
additional research. For now, please enjoy "The Story of Alanon of New Jersey"
This pamphlet was authored in 1948 and an original can be found in the GSO
archives. We are preparing to re-release here in Northern NJ as we are currently
completing a history display for the Alanon Club.

God Bless

John B. - Area 44 Archives

_________________________________________

The Story of ALANON of New Jersey

THIS PAMPHLET is issued to assist many persons in AA who are not clear in their
minds about the Alanon Club. They have been unable to recognize the distinction
between the Club and the Movement proper. With so many new alcoholics coming
into AA daily, a good portion of them joining Alanon, we are constantly plied
with questions concerning the Club's exact status.

SOCIAL HAVEN
The Alanon Association is a social for club for sincere AAs in good standing.
Its job is to provide AAs with a place to visit and enjoy on another's
friendship and companionship under the most congenial conditions within our
grasp. It endeavors to furnish amusement and diversion for the members and their
families and to serve all members of Alcoholics Anonymous in need of the help
and comfort which comes of group fellowship as practiced in the Movement. Alanon
functions actively in the rehabilitation of the men and women of AA. The Alanon
Club directly engages in no AA therapeutic work whatsoever. It adheres rigidly
to the AA tradition as propounded by the Alcoholic Foundation, but it is neither
a "Group" nor a central body in any sense. Purely and simply, it is a recreation
center for the individual embers of AA in New Jersey–who own it. Alanon seeks no
rights or jurisdiction in any other unit within the Movement; by the same token,
it is a legally chartered non–profit corporation of New Jersey entirely
controlled and operated by its own membership, who annually elect a board of
five trustees to manage it. In the event it should ever be liquidated, the
proceeds would go to the Foundation.

FACILITIES
The ample club house, measuring 80 feet long by 50 feet wide on a 100 x 100
plot, is fully equipped with club facilities. In the basement are located its
four bowling alleys which are busy seven days a week, the card room, toilets,
heating plant, etc. On the first floor are spacious lounging parlors equipped
with a $1,999 Television-Radio combination and a grand piano in good condition.
This floor also contains a huge recreation room where three pool tables and a
shuffleboard do yeomen service, and our kitchen and coffee bar, which are in
operation from 9:00 A.M. to the closing hour of midnight, (1:00 A.M. Friday and
Saturday nights). A large auditorium seating 400, occupies most of the second
floor, with the ladies' powder room, Intergroup office and storeroom making up
the balance.
Maintenance and operation of the club house is handled by a staff of paid
workers, under the supervision of the club manager. Owing to the financial
obligations involved, the club management finds it necessary to retain control
over major social functions, through the help of members working through
committees has proven of great value and is encouraged.

ACTIVITIES
The club is a bedlam of fun-making on weekends, particularly on Saturday nights.
In fact, a social function is arranged for almost every Saturday night in the
year.
Also, special programs are staged on significant holidays, such as
Hallowe'en,(sic) Thanksgiving, St. Patrick's Day, Christmas, and highlight of
the year, New Year's Eve. These functions are of a wide variety, and include
dances, costume parties, card parties, Monte Carlo nights, game nights, musical
entertainment, night club floor shows and Broadway-type reviews. Generally, all
the talent workers for those affairs are drawn from the club membership.
Activity is by no means confined to weekends, however. Every night there is
plenty of action, at the pool tables, shuffleboard, television and card room.
Besides, the tables adjoining the coffee bar and the big arm chairs in the
parlors are abuzz with AAs in "bull" sessions. It is a rare night that does not
count a minimum of 75 to 100 members and twice that number is the usual nightly
complement.

FINANCES
The club is on a sound financial basis and boasts of a satisfactory balance in
the bank. The property itself was purchased outright in November, 1944, for
$22,000 and is now in its fourth year of operation. A non-alcoholic friend of
several years standing advanced us $15,000 on a first mortgage, and 91 AAs who
helped to found the club loaned an additional $9,000. To them were issued
Certificates of Indebtedness which will become due and payable in 1955, bearing
3% interest. These Certificates are, in effect, promissory notes. They do not
constitute a lien against the property, but they are a legal obligation and
their integrity is guaranteed by the assets and honor of the organization. To
date, grateful members have endorsed back to the club nearly $1,000 worth of
these Certificates. Up to the present time, the club has reduced the mortgage on
the property by about $4,000, and set aside $1,500 additional in a sinking fund
toward the amortization of the Certificates of Indebtedness. Present intention
is to deposit $1,000 a year in the sinking fund until the Certificates mature.

REVENUES
The sources of operating revenues consist of dues, which are nominal now; sale
of coffee, sandwiches, ice cream, etc., at the coffee bar; fees for the use of
the bowling, pool, etc., facilities and contributions at the social events in
the auditorium.
The Club is necessarily conducted strictly along business lines, on a cash basis
and with no tabs or deferred accounts. Members three months in arrears in dues
are posted on the bulletin board. Contributions from AA groups are not
solicited, though occasionally voluntary donations are received from this
source.
Groups also sometimes sponsor dances, etc., in the auditorium, and turn the
proceeds over to the club treasury. Through the cooperation of the municipal and
county governments, the club property is legally exempt from all local taxes,
because of its recognized rehabilitation work.

OWNERSHIP
Folks ask, "Who owns the Alanon? The Groups? The Intergroup Committee? The
Newark AAs? A clique of bondholders or stockholders? A band of private
individuals?"
To answer all of the above there is but a single answer: NO. Alanon's charter
stipulates that its individual members shall always be its sole owners. Any New
Jersey AA is eligible to join Alanon, and when he or she joins, he or she
automatically becomes an owner of the Association's property and assets in
common with all other members. No Group or Committee or any other organized band
of AAs can have any rights of ownership or control over the club. There are no
bondholders or stockholders because no bonds or shares of stock were ever
issued. The club charter specifies that membership in Alanon is open to any New
Jersey AA, which means that no local group from any particular locality enjoys
any prior rights over the remainder of the state. At the present writing,
February 1948, these owner-members number 560, and they belong to 43 AA groups
scattered over the State.

SOME HISTORY
Others want to know exactly what is the Alanon Club? What does it do? Does it
dry out drunks on their way into AA? And "slippers"? Does it provide manpower
for the 12th Step work? Or speakers for group meetings? Does it fix a fellow up
for a night's lodging? Does it give out alms?
Again the answer is in the negative. The above questions embrace straight AA
work, which is the province of the Groups, the Intergroup or individual AAs.
Disastrous experience has taught us that Club activities and Group work do not
mix. The Club cannot dry a man out, but it does provide the recreation needed
for his rehabilitation. We had hardly opened our own doors in the beginning when
we discovered, to our consternation, that we were developing our own "skid row"
in the club house. Its denizens consisted of newcomers still under the influence
of alcohol coming in to be sobered up; chronic "slippers," resting between
periodic binges; insincere members on the prowl for unwary AA members with a
bankroll; visitors of sorts from Mulberry Street in search of a "flop" or
whatnot, and "touch" artists of various stripes and skills. These are only a few
of the many types of undesirable phonies we encountered.
12th Step work in those early days posed an almost insuperable problem. As the
public became aware of Alanon, they regarded it as a sought of AA headquarters,
with the result that by phone, mail and personal calls, every passing day
brought a steady stream of requests for help from social workers, the clergy,
family, courts, the police, welfare agencies, ordinary citizens, and, of course,
AAs everywhere. But it got to be too much. We hadn't the manpower to cope with
the calls, and besides, most AAs came to the club for relaxation, having
attended to their AA work, including the 12th Step, through their own groups.
They looked to Alanon for social diversion with other dry AAs. We finally
realized we had to be a club or a clinic – we could not be both.

INTERGROUP
The Intergroup Committee cleared the way for the necessary separation. The club
had made the formation of Intergroup possible after earlier efforts along these
lines had failed for lack of a common meeting place and other facilities. The
same membership that founded Alanon also organized Intergroup, and it was
thought at first that both units could function efficiently in combination. In
fact, the same person acted as secretary and manager for both organizations.
However, the joint operation lasted only a little more than a year when it
collapsed amid confusion and dissatisfaction

SEPARATION
Then the separation was made complete. Both Alanon and Intergroup revamped their
policies, the former becoming exclusively a social club and recreation center
for dry AAs in good standing, and the Committee a central clearance station for
AA groups and members, mass meetings, information, and our relations with the
world outside. The result has met with commendable success. All confusion has
ended and each organization is operating with incomparably greater efficiency.
Both units now are completely separate and independent of each other, save in
one respect. Rent free, Intergroup maintains its private office in the club and
holds the monthly mass meetings there. However, in the belief that its central
office can function better away from the club the Intergroup is presently
seeking other quarters.

BILL'S IDEAS
We are including below excerpts from Founder Bill's article on Clubs in AA, now
officially part of AA Tradition. We believe the Alanon operation in Newark is
not inconsistent with Bill's present thinking. There is real separation of the
material from the spiritual. The business of AA is not encroached upon. Newark
is the center of a large urban area, but more than three years of successful
operation has demonstrated that it is possible for this club to be a continuing
help to alcoholics, in strict accordance with AA principles.

COME IN; IT'S YOURS
Alanon's doors are always open to AAs everywhere. We bid welcome to all. Guest
may be had for the asking. Owner-membership is open to all AAs in good standing
after thirty days in any group.

Excerpts from
CLUBS IN AA
By BILL

The club idea has become part of A.A. life. Scores of these hospitable havens
can report years of useful service; new ones are being started monthly. Were a
vote taken tomorrow on the desirability of clubs a sizeable majority of A.A.s
would record a resounding "Yes." There would be thousands who would testify that
they might have had a harder time staying sober in their first months of A.A.
without clubs and that, in any case, they would always wish the easy contacts
and warm friendships which clubs afford.

…Toward a middle ground, for several years now, we have been feeling our way.
Despite alarms it is quite settled that A.A.s who need and want clubs ought to
have them. Throughout the country most clubs have started like ours did. At
first we regard them as central A.A. institutions. But later experience
invariably brings a shift in their status, a shift much to be desired, we now
think.

This tangle slowly commenced to unravel, as we began to get the idea that clubs
ought to be strictly the business of those individuals who especially want
clubs, and who are willing to pay for them. We began to see that club management
is a pure business proposition which ought to be separately incorporated under
another name such, for example, as "Alanon"; that the "directors" of a club
corporation ought to look after club business only; that an A.A. group, as such,
should never get into active management of a business project. Hectic experience
has since taught us that if an A.A. rotating committee tries to boss the club
corporation or if the corporation tries to run the A.A. affairs of those groups
who may meet at the club there is difficulty at once. The only way we have found
to cure this is to separate the material from the spiritual.

Questions are often asked: "Who elects the business directors of a club?" And
"Does club membership differ from A.A. membership?" As practices vary we don't
quite know the answers yet. The most reasonable suggestions seem these: Any A.A.
member ought to feel free to enjoy the ordinary privileges of any A.A. club
whether be makes a regular voluntary contribution or not. If he contributes
regularly be should, in addition be entitled to vote in the business meetings
which elect the business directors of his club corporation. This would open all
clubs to all A.A.s. But it would limit their business conduct to those
interested enough to contribute regularly.

In this connection we might remind ourselves that in A.A. we have no fees or
compulsory dues. But it ought to be added, of course, that since clubs are
becoming separate and private ventures they can be run on other lines if their
members insist.

Acceptance of large sums from any source to buy, build or finance clubs almost
invariably leads to later headaches. Public solicitation is, of course,
extremely dangerous. Complete self-support of clubs and everything else
connected with A.A. is becoming our universal practice.

Club evolution is also telling us this: In none but small communities are clubs
likely to remain the principal centers of A.A. activity. Originally starting as
the main center of a city many a club moves to larger and larger quarters,
thinking to retain the central meeting for its area within its own walls.
Finally, however, circumstances defeat this purpose.

Circumstance number one is that the growing A.A. will burst the walls of any
clubhouse. Sooner or later the principal or central meeting has to be moved into
a large auditorium. The club can't hold it. This is a fact which ought to be
soberly contemplated whenever we think of buying or building large clubhouses. A
second circumstance seems sure to leave most clubs in an "off center" position,
especially in large cities. That is our strong tendency toward central or
intergroup committee management of the common A.A. problems of metropolitan
areas. Every area, sooner or later, realizes that such concerns as intergroup
meetings, hospital arrangements, local public relations, a central office for
interviews and information, are things in which every A.A. is interested,
whether be has any use for clubs or not. These being strictly A.A. matters, a
central or intergroup committee has to be elected and financed to look after
them. The groups of an area will usually support with group funds these truly
central activities. Even though the club is still large enough for intergroup
meetings and these meetings are still held, the center of gravity for the area
will continue to shift to the intergroup committee and its central activities.
The club is left definitely offside; where, in the opinion of many, it should
be. Actively supported and managed by those who want clubs, they can be "taken
or left alone." Should these principles be fully applied to our clubs, we shall
have placed ourselves in a position to enjoy their warmth yet drop any that get
too hot. We shall then realize that a club is but a valuable social aid. And,
more
important still, we shall always preserve the simple A.A. group as that primary
spiritual entity whence issues our greatest strength.

* * *
The Board of Trustees
Alanon Association Inc.
Of New Jersey


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Miller <cm53@...> wrote:
>
> In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon
Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics
Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)
>
> This building had been purchased and opened as a Clubhouse in the early 40's.
(One of the first--it was a big deal.) As I recall, it had 3 floors -- one with
restaurant/catering facilities, one with a bowling alley -- and of course,
meeting rooms. It was said that this was the model AA complex talked about in
Tradition 4. Could some North Jersey member corroborate/correct this info?
>
> North Jersey has GREAT Archives. Saw the actual "Rule 62" card displayed
there, as well as many fliers for events with Bill W. in attendance.
>
> In service,
> Cindy Miller
>

0 -1 0 0
7219 Rae Turnbull
Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors 3/10/2011 9:18:00 PM

Hello,

My question is: In segment 3 of "Language of the Heart" Bill W prefaces the
article  "Our Critics Can Be Our Benefactors" by stating "When a magazine
criticizing aspects of AA raised questions about AA's relationships to medicine,
religion, and the world at large ...."

Does anyone know which magazine he was referring to and what date the article
was published?

Thanks for any help with this question.

Rae T
Bookmarks
Corpus Christi, Texas

0 -1 0 0
7220 Robert Stonebraker
Looking for a photo of Jim Newton Looking for a photo of Jim Newton 3/10/2011 11:16:00 PM

Could someone kindly send me a picture of the Jim Newton who helped Bud
Firestone find sobriety?

Thanks in advance!

Bob S.
___________________________________________

Mail to: <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>
(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

Bob Stonebraker
212 SW 18th Street
Richmond, Indiana 47374
phone (765) 935-0130

0 -1 0 0
7221 ron.fulkerson@comcast.net
Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors 3/11/2011 7:39:00 AM

Rae,

The article was in HARPER'S Magazine, February 1963, written by Arthur H. Cain.
If you love AA and it saved your life, this article is a tough read.

-- ronf

(Should you want copies, let us know.)

- - - -

Message #7219 from Rae Turnbull <raeturnbull@sbcglobal.net> (raeturnbull at
sbcglobal.net)

In segment 3 of "Language of the Heart" Bill W prefaces the article "Our
Critics Can Be Our Benefactors" by stating "When a magazine criticizing aspects
of AA raised questions about AA's relationships to medicine, religion, and the
world at large ...." Does anyone know which magazine he was referring to and
what date the article was published?

0 -1 0 0
7222 Michael
Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 11:21:00 AM

Hi all,

This was not a letter to AA. This was simply a Bulletin from NA's Word Services
prepared for their own membership (from 1985). You can view it on the NA website
[OR SEE THE COPY OF THAT BULLETIN BELOW]:

http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r

I have seen this before and for the life of me I don't see how anyone could
interpret this as a message to AA telling them to "Stop killing our people by
telling them they can join AA" (Did he mean "can't instead of can? Either way I
don't see it.)

To me this bulletin is stressing respect between the fellowships and simply
outlining a different philosophy when it comes to the First Step. I don't see
anything contentious in there. In fact, it really seems to me that the bulletin
is calling out their own members to check their attitudes toward AA and stop
fostering any anti AA feelings.

The fellowships have so much in common and mature members in both have a mutual
respect for each other and see the commonality. We're cut from the same cloth
(Bill said we were "cousins" to the drug addict) and we're both striving for the
same thing.

Thanks,
Mike Margetis
Brunswick, Maryland


=============================================
NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS WORLD SERVICES Bulletin #13
http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r

Some thoughts regarding our
relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous

This article was generated by the World Service Board of Trustees in November
1985 in response to the needs of the fellowship. This bulletin was revised
during the 1995-1996 conference year.

The question of just how Narcotics Anonymous relates to all other fellowships
and organizations is one which may generate controversy within our fellowship.
In spite of the fact that we have a stated policy of "cooperation, not
affiliation" with outside organizations confusion remains. One such sensitive
issue involves our relationship to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Letters have been received by the World Service Board of Trustees asking a
variety of questions about this relationship.

Narcotics Anonymous is modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous. Nearly every NA
community in existence has leaned to some degree on AA in its formative stages.
Our relationship with that fellowship over the years has been very real and
dynamic. Our fellowship itself sprang from the turmoil within AA over what to
do with the addicts knocking on its doors. We will look at our roots for some
perspective on our current relationship to AA.

Bill W, one of AA's co-founders, often said that one of AA's greatest strengths
is its single-minded focus on one thing and one thing only. By limiting its
primary purpose to carrying the message to alcoholics, and avoiding all other
activities, AA is able to do that one thing supremely well. The atmosphere of
identification is preserved by that purity of focus, and alcoholics get help.

From very early on, AA was confronted by a perplexing problem: "What do we do
with drug addicts? We want to keep our focus on alcohol so the alcoholic hears
the message, but these addicts come in here talking about drugs, inadvertently
weakening our atmosphere of identification." The steps were written, the Big
Book was written—what were they supposed to do, rewrite it all? Allow the
atmosphere of identification to get blurry so that no one got a clear sense of
belonging? Kick these dying people back out into the streets? The problem must
have been a tremendous one for them.

When they finally studied the problem carefully and took a stand in their
literature, the solution they outlined possessed their characteristic common
sense and wisdom. They pledged their support in a spirit of "cooperation, not
affiliation." This farsighted solution to a difficult concern paved the way for
the development of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship.

But still, the problem that they wished to avoid would have to be addressed by
any group that tried to adapt AA’s program of recovery to drug addicts. How
do you achieve the atmosphere of identification so necessary for surrender and
recovery if you let all different kinds of addicts in? Can someone with a
heroin problem relate to someone with an alcohol or marijuana or Valium problem?
How will you ever achieve the unity that the First Tradition says is necessary
for recovery? Our fellowship inherited a tough dilemma.

For some perspective on how we handled that dilemma, one more look at AA history
is helpful. Another thing Bill W. frequently wrote and spoke about was what he
called the "tenstrike" of AA—the wording of the Third and Eleventh Steps. The
whole area of spirituality versus religion was as perplexing for them as unity
was for us. Bill liked to recount that the simple addition of the words "as we
understood Him" after the word "God" killed that controversy in one chop. An
issue that had the potential to divide and destroy AA was converted into the
cornerstone of the program by that simple turn of phrase.

As the founders of Narcotics Anonymous adapted our steps, they came up with a
"tenstrike" of perhaps equal importance. Rather than converting the First Step
in a natural, logical way ("we admitted that we were powerless over drugs..."),
they made a radical change in that step. They wrote, "We admitted that we were
powerless over our addiction..." Drugs are a varied group of substances, the
use of any of which is but a symptom of our disease. When addicts gather and
focus on drugs, they are usually focusing on their differences, because each of
us used a different drug or combination of drugs. The one thing that we all
share is the disease of addiction. With that single turn of a phrase, the
foundation of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship was laid.

Our First Step gives us one focus: our addiction. The wording of Step One also
takes the focus of our powerlessness off the symptom and places it on the
disease itself. The phrase "powerless over a drug" does not go far enough for
most of us in recovery—the desire to use has been removed—but "powerless
over our addiction" is as relevant to the oldtimer as it is to the newcomer.
Our addiction begins to resurface and cause unmanageability in our thoughts and
feelings whenever we become complacent in our program of recovery. This process
has nothing to do with "drug of choice." We guard against the recurrence of our
drug use by applying our spiritual principles, before a relapse. Our First Step
applies regardless of drug of choice and length of clean time. With this
"tenstrike" as its foundation, NA has begun to flourish as a major worldwide
organization, clearly focusing on addiction.

As any NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles
(particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with
its alcohol-oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift
the focus away from specific drugs, don’t mix well. When we try to mix them,
we find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along! When our
members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living
"clean and sober," the clarity of the NA message is blurred. The implication in
this language is that there are two diseases, that one drug is separate from
another, so a separate set of terms is needed when discussing addiction. At
first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full
impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion.

It has become clear that our common identification, our unity, and our full
surrender as addicts depends on a clear understanding of our most fundamental
principles: We are powerless over a disease that gets progressively worse when
we use any drug. It does not matter what drug was at the center for us when we
arrived. Any drug we use will release our disease all over again. We recover
from the disease of addiction by applying our Twelve Steps. Our steps are
uniquely worded to carry this message clearly, so the rest of our language of
recovery must be consistent with our steps. We cannot mix these fundamental
principles with those of our parent fellowship without crippling our own
message.

Both fellowships have a Sixth Tradition for a reason: to keep each one from
being diverted from its own primary purpose. Because of the inherent need of a
Twelve Step fellowship to focus on one thing and one thing only, so that it can
do that one thing supremely well, each Twelve Step fellowship must stand alone,
unaffiliated with everything else. It is in our nature to be separate, to feel
separate, and use a separate set of recovery terms, because we each have a
separate, unique primary purpose. The focus of AA is on the alcoholic, and we
ought to respect that fellowship’s perfect right to adhere to its own
traditions and protect its focus. If we cannot use language consistent with
that, we ought not go to their meetings and undermine that atmosphere. In the
same way, we NA members ought to respect our own primary purpose and identify
ourselves at NA meetings simply as addicts, and share in a way that keeps our
message clear.

A casual, cursory glance at AA’s success in delivering recovery to alcoholics
over the years makes it abundantly clear that theirs is a successful program.
Their literature, their service structure, the quality of their members'
recovery, their sheer numbers, the respect they enjoy from society—these
things speak for themselves. Our members ought not embarrass us by adopting a
"we're better than them" posture. That can only be counterproductive.

As a fellowship, we must continue to strive to move forward by not stubbornly
clinging to one radical extreme or the other. Our members who have been
unintentionally blurring the NA message by using drug-specific language such as
"sobriety," "alcoholic," "clean and sober," "dope fiend," etc., could help by
identifying simply and clearly as addicts, and using the words "clean," "clean
time," and "recovery," which imply no particular substance. We all could help
by referring to only our own literature at meetings, thereby avoiding any
implied endorsement or affiliation. Our principles stand on their own. For the
sake of our development as a fellowship and the personal recovery of our
members, our approach to the problem of addiction must shine through clearly in
what we say and do at meetings.

Our members who have used these arguments to rationalize an anti-AA stand,
thereby alienating many sorely needed stable members, would do well to
re-evaluate and reconsider the effects of that kind of behavior. Narcotics
Anonymous is a spiritual fellowship. Love, tolerance, patience, and cooperation
are essential if we are to live our principles.

Let's devote our energies to our personal spiritual development through our own
Twelve Steps. Let's carry our own message clearly. There's a lot of work to be
done, and we need each other if we are to be effective. Let's move forward in a
spirit of NA unity.

(Reprinted from Newsline Vol. 2, No. 6.)
=============================================


Original message from "David" <Inkman3@...> said:
>
> I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to
AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can
join AA.
>
> My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And
if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it?

0 -1 0 0
7223 Chris Budnick
RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 2:32:00 AM

My friend Boyd and I have made two trips to the AA GSO in the past 18 months
after we had research applications approved for the purpose of viewing the
archives for any correspondence/information between AA GSO and other
individuals/groups/fellowships dealing with problems other than alcohol. We
spent a total of four days scouring over everything we could find on Addicts
Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous (4 distinct efforts - New York, California,
Cleveland and Montreal), and others.

The only correspondence we found from Narcotics Anonymous World Services to the
GSO were:

1. A response from the GSO in 1989 to a request for any
correspondence/information about NA

2. An undated response to a similar request that references the 1989 request

We did not come across a letter from NA World Services making any such request.
On the contrary, much of what we discovered involved correspondence that led up
to the Bill's 1958 Grapevine article: Problems Other Than Alcohol: What Can Be
Done About Them?"

There is one other piece of correspondence that is noteworthy. The following
letter is from an employee, at the time, of the NA World Service Office, which
was submitted to the Grapevine. See below.

Thanks,
Chris B.
Raleigh, North Carolina


============================================
March 1986

Vol. 42 No. 10

Another Vision for You

I am not a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, but I am among the millions of people
who owe our lives to the Twelve Steps of recovery. Bill W.'s vision of other
societies similar to AA forming to address problems other than alcoholism is
very much a reality today. Thanks to the inspiration and vision of your
co-founders, and the current generosity of your Fellowship in sharing its
experience, a few of these other Fellowships are becoming strong, well-developed
programs of recovery, with a network of local and world services, hotlines,
literature, old-timers, service centers employing special workers -- all the
necessary ingredients.

As a member of one of those other Fellowships, I'm writing to the Grapevine as
an outside writer, but the issue I'm addressing is not an outside issue. I'm
writing about addicts attending AA meetings -- perhaps an issue that most of us
are tired of dealing with -- but one whose solution is finally at hand. After
years of internal controversy in AA (and in fellowships modeled after AA), just
maybe we're at a place where the turmoil can stop. The solution envisioned by
Bill W., articulated in your pamphlet Problems Other Than Alcohol, can finally
be implemented with confidence.

I am a drug addict who came to AA in 1978 looking for help. When the suggestion
that I go to AA to address my drug problem was first put to me I was puzzled.
"My problem is this other drug. Why would I go to AA?" It was explained to me
that AA is what works, and no one could kick me out. No one has the authority to
do that. "Just substitute alcohol for your drug," I was told, "and it will
work."

I did that. I went to AA for a period of about four years. I learned the
"passwords" that would not offend the oldtimers, and I made a place for myself
in your Fellowship. I was also introduced to Narcotics Anonymous from the very
beginning, but in 1978 NA had very little literature, no old-timers locally to
serve as sponsors, no network of services for its groups. I went to that NA
meeting to identify more fully and share more fully, and I went to AA for the
substance of recovery. Those were the realities of being a recovering drug
addict in the upper Midwest in the late seventies.

As I stayed around and observed both Fellowships closely, I could not miss the
great dilemma that was brewing about us addicts in AA. I did not take this
problem personally, because I read the words of Bill W. and they made sense.
The primary purpose of every AA group is to carry its message to the alcoholic
who still suffers. As AA groups try to carry their message to anyone else, that
atmosphere of identification for the alcoholic is weakened. If an alcoholic
walks into an AA meeting and encounters a discussion among junkies, gamblers,
overeaters, or whatever, that alcoholic may just miss his shot at the miracle. I
slowly became more and more aware that I was the outsider in AA; that old-timer
who got irritated when I shared about my drug use was on his home ground, and I
was straining his Traditions. It has been a tough issue for us all.

But what were the AA people to do in 1978? Throw us out? Even if that were
possible in AA, who had the heart? "What would the Master do?" it says in the
"Twelve and Twelve." Where would we go? Most of our NA groups were not part of a
worldwide structure that could sustain us in recovery. In many places, the
compromise measure seems to have been to just overlook the issue as best as we
could and go on about our recovery. And the wisdom of the co-founder has been
borne out again. Many AA groups have become a mix of alcoholics and people
addicted to other drugs, and many of those NA groups' growth has been stunted.
They were not seriously regarded as part of a separate Fellowship capable of
sustaining recovery. The service of recovering addicts went into AA services. As
addicts got some time in recovery, they became AA sponsors. The texture of the
AA community was slowly drifting from a clear atmosphere of identification for
the alcoholic, and the texture of those isolated NA groups was remaining pretty
static.

With the eighties came a vast change in that scenario. More and more recovering
addicts began to turn our attention to the developing Fellowship of NA. We got
busy writing literature, developing our services at every level, refining our
own thinking and language for our own principles of recovery. We had learned so
much from our forerunners in AA, and now we were breaking some new ground.

It has been an exciting period of new hope for the addict who still suffers. And
ironically, maybe it is an exciting period of renewed hope for the alcoholic who
still suffers too. By going exclusively to NA, doing my service in NA, growing
in my understanding of the NA message, I have left the AA groups just a little
freer to focus on their own primary purpose. That is not personal. It's sound
principle.

Today NA is thriving. We have our own basic text, and we're in the later stages
of producing a book on our Steps and Traditions. We are experiencing the kind
of booming growth that AA experienced in the forties. Our world services are
coming together in a way that can only be attributed to a loving God, expressing
himself in our group conscience. It has been a time of the joy and pain of rapid
growth for us, and we expect this growth rate to continue for some time to come.

I guess I'm really saying a number of things. First, thank you AA, for your
wisdom in taking the stand that you can best help the addict not by allowing us
to become members, but by offering us the model of your program and inspiring us
to build our own. Even though the realities of life have sometimes forced us all
to compromise, your Conference and your written word never lost perspective.
That vision is now bearing fruit. I also want to assure you that strong, stable,
long-term recovery is available today in NA, so the days of worrying that
addicts are just being kicked out into the street are over. Many addicts are
pointed in our direction by AA groups adhering to their own primary purpose. A
fast friendship, based on "cooperation, not affiliation," is cropping up between
us everywhere.

It goes without saying that these words are one member's views -- I do not speak
for my Fellowship any more than these other articles speak for yours. But let's
all look at these issues now from the vantage point of our best spiritual vision
of the future. The time for coming to rest on this issue is finally at hand.

R. H.

Northridge, California
============================================

0 -1 0 0
7224 John Moore
Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line 3/14/2011 2:44:00 PM

A project is underway to microfilm the Stepping Stones archival material,
digitize it, and eventually make it available to researchers on line.

See this article by Rob Ryser entitled
"Bedford archives of AA co-founder to be preserved"

http://www.lohud.com/article/20110314/NEWS02/103140343/Bedford-archives-AA-co-fo\
%5Cunder-preserved?odyssey=nav
|head


BEDFORD HILLS — Anyone who has ever loved a drunk knows how much a pledge to
quit drinking is worth.

But these are not ordinary broken promises.

The quit-drinking oaths that a certain Bill Wilson swore to his wife 80 years
ago on the family Bible are now considered so valuable to the Alcoholics
Anonymous story and to American history in general that they can no longer be
entrusted merely to safe storage here at the couple's historic home and grounds.

"Those archives are a national treasure," said Manhattan writer Susan Cheever,
who used the archives extensively for her 2004 biography of Wilson. "AA is one
of the most extraordinary things that has ever happened in our world, and he was
one of the three or four most important men of the 20th century."

A $175,000 campaign is under way to permanently protect the famous broken oaths
and some 120,000 other writings of Wilson, the co-founder of AA, and his wife,
Lois, the co-founder of the Al-Anon movement for families of alcoholics.

"In the grand scheme of things, these are priceless," said Annah Perch,
executive director of the Stepping Stones Foundation, the nonprofit that manages
the Wilson legacy. "The sooner this stuff goes off-site and becomes microfilmed
and digitized, the sooner we will be safe from a natural disaster."

The idea is not only to make duplicates of the original documents as insurance
against fire or flood, but to create a digital archive and put it online. That
would make the archive much more widely available than it is now.

As it is today, scholars and authors must apply for access to the documents.

For everyone else, getting close to the first couple of recovery is restricted
to a few items that were recently made available at a new Welcome Center on the
Stepping Stones grounds. The listing of their Dutch Colonial home on the
National Register of Historic Places helped raise the profile of their mission
in the middle part of the last decade. But the real impact of the 40 years the
couple lived locally continues to play out in the lives of recovering alcoholics
and their families.

Wilson proclaimed alcoholism a disease three decades before the American Medical
Association did. The 12-step recovery solution that Wilson and co-founder Dr.
Bob Smith created reversed the historically held belief that hard drunks could
not stay sober, and it became the standard treatment in U.S. hospitals and
clinics.

"It is the only way we have to deal with addiction, and we live in an age of
addiction," said Cheever, whose memoir of her father, John Cheever, documented
the writer's battle with alcohol. "Bill Wilson truly changed the way we think
about ourselves."

All the more reason to protect the archives, said filmmaker Kevin Hanlon.

"I think it is impossible to understand Bill Wilson's life without these
remarkable archives," said Hanlon, who recently finished shooting in Bedford
Hills for a documentary about Wilson. "It is a story that resonates for an awful
lot of people who don't suffer from alcoholism or know people who are
alcoholics, although it strikes me how few people there are who don't know
someone who has struggled with alcohol."

About one-third of the archive collection has already been sent to the company
doing the preservation work with $25,000 that has already been raised for the
effort.

"We had so much faith in our donor community in how they have responded to our
needs in the past that we started the project without all of the money in hand,"
Perch said.
__________________________________

Sent in by John Moore
South Burlington, Vermont
<contact.johnmoore@gmail.com>
(contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)

0 -1 0 0
7225 stalban2001
RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 6:40:00 PM

As a former member of the Narcotics Anonymous Board of Trustees and an NA member
with 36 years of recovery, I can assure you that no such letter was ever sent to
my watch or by anyone I know. While I'm no longer active at the world level, I
know the people serving there as trusted servant and special service workers,
and I'm confident that they have a good enough understanding of the Traditions
not to have written such a preposterous letter.

However, I can't speak for all our members at all times. It's possible that an
over-zealous NA member whose AA experience was not positive wrote something like
that out of ignorance.

By the way, NA's "world headquarters," based in California, are known variously
as the World Service Office (WSO) or NA World Services (NAWS). NAWS is used as a
collective to include the World Service Conference (WSC).

- - - -

P.S. That Bulletin was written by the NA Board of Trustees in 1985-86 as part of
a series of essays clarifying issues pertaining to the development of Narcotics
Anonymous and its philosophy of recovery. Its provenance is quite clear and is
still reprinted by NAWS for use by NA members.

Its tone regarding AA is quite respectful and nowhere do I see it enjoining the
AA Fellowship to "stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA."
_________________________________________

Original message #7216 from "David" <Inkman3@webtv.net>
(Inkman3 at webtv.net)

I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's
GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA.

My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if
it does exist, where could I find a copy of it?

0 -1 0 0
7226 Angela Corelis
Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 8:41:00 PM

From: Bob Cohen <a1abob@yahoo.com>
To: Angela Corelis <acorelis@yahoo.com>

This wasn't written to AA but as an internal information to NA members and
anyone that wanted to read it. We actually use part of this in the NA opening
statement that the Sunshine Group reads prior to the regular readings.
Drugs alone didn't cover enough but they changed it to addiction -- that puts
everyone on a level playing field, in fact one of the main reading states that:

"We don't care what or how much you used, who your connections were, how much or
how little you have, just what you want to do and how we can help."

NA started because some well meaning AAs tried to help frustrated addicts that
couldn't identify in AA, and helped them form groups, as they were dually
addicted themselves. Even Bill Wilson begged addicts to start an NA of some type
long before NA started, as he saw that addiction could be worse than alcoholism
alone, which is written in the 12 and 12 I believe.

Bob
___________________________________________

Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true?

>Hi all,This was not a letter to AA. This was simply a Bulletin from NA's Word
Services prepared for their own membership (from 1985). You can view it on the
NA website [OR SEE THE COPY OF THAT BULLETIN BELOW]
:http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r I have seen this before and for
the life of me I don't see how anyone could interpret this as a message to AA
telling them to "Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA" ....
To me this bulletin is stressing respect between the fellowships and simply
outlining a different philosophy when it comes to the First Step. I don't see
anything contentious in there. In fact, it really seems to me that the bulletin
is calling out their own members to check their attitudes toward AA and stop
fostering any anti AA feelings. The fellowships have so much in common and
mature members in both have a mutual respect for each other and see the
commonality. We're cut from the same cloth (Bill said we were "cousins" to the
drug addict) and we're both striving for the same thing.

Thanks,Mike Margetis
Brunswick, Maryland

0 -1 0 0
7227 Sally Brown
RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 8:08:00 PM

Thank you, Chris, for publishing this excellent article. Maybe AA will come to
the public realization someday that poly-addiction is far more common than
addiction to any one drug alone.

Also, most people have no idea about Bill Wilson's passion for scientific
information. I personally have no doubt that he would eventually have realized
the massive development of poly-addiction, and taken steps to educate his, and
our, beloved AA community how they might reorganize themselves.

Shalom - Sally Brown

Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ
coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 310
www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

________________________________________

For a copy of the article, see Message no. 7223
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7223

From "Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>
(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)

In this message, Chris gives a copy of a letter "from an employee, at the time,
of the NA World Service Office, which was submitted to the Grapevine" in Vol. 42
No. 10 (March 1986), entitled "Another Vision for You"

0 -1 0 0
7228 intuited
God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics in AA God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics in AA 3/5/2011 11:59:00 PM

Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we
understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit
an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?

Was his/her story published?

I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured
Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.

As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly
being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of
references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious
beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories
and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.

The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a
pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and
agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st
Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very
curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way
to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?

Amelia

0 -1 0 0
7229 Glenn Chesnut
Re: God as we understood Him: the atheist''s story God as we understood Him: the atheist''s story 3/16/2011 4:30:00 PM

AA historians tell us that the words "as we understood Him" were inserted into
the twelve steps to allow an atheist among the early AA group to remain a member
of the group.

In the preceding message, Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> asked: was his/her
story published?

The atheist was Jim Burwell, and there are a lot of messages on the
AAHistoryLovers site talking about his story. If you go to our Message Board at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and put Burwell
into the little search box at the top, you can call up 108 different messages
talking about him.

Henry (Hank) Parkhurst is often included in a discussion of this issue, but he
and Burwell held quite different points of view, at least in my reading of the
documents from that era, particularly what Hank himself wrote when the book
project was first being discussed.

Burwell was a complete atheist, or at least was very doubtful about any kind of
God existing.

But Hank's position was more complicated. He regarded the proposed Big Book
project as the writing, NOT of a complete description of the whole program, but
only of an introductory book to entice people into the AA program. He felt that
talking about God in the book would scare too many people away, so he wanted the
book to only talk about the psychological aspects of the program. After
alcoholics had been persuaded by that book to start coming to AA meetings, they
could be gently exposed in gradual fashion to the serious spiritual content of
the program and helped in developing a useful understanding of God.

AMONG THE PREVIOUS MESSAGES, SEE FOR EXAMPLE:

http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm
The Vicious Cycle
2nd edition p. 238, 3rd edition p. 238, 4th edition p. 219
Jim Burwell, Maryland
- - - -
Jim was twelfth stepped into the fellowship on January 8, 1938. But he had a
slip in June of that year. His last drink was June 16, 1938.
- - - -
Jim is usually given credit for the third tradition, that the only requirement
for membership is a desire to stop drinking. He also is credited with the use of
"God as we understood Him" in the Steps. (Jim, an agnostic, was militantly
opposed to too much talk of God in the Big Book, but he said later that his
agnostic stance had mellowed over the years.)
- - - -
The Unbeliever
Original manuscript p. 7, 1st edition p. 194
Henry [Hank] Parkhurst NY
- - - -
Hank was the first man Bill Wilson was successful in sobering up after returning
from his famous trip to Akron where he met Dr. Bob. Thus Hank was A.A. #2 in New
York prior to resuming drinking about four years later. His original date of
sobriety was either October or November 1935.
- - - -
Hank was a salesman, an agnostic, and a former Standard Oil of New Jersey
executive, who had lost his job because of drinking.
- - - -
He and Jim Burwell ("The Vicious Cycle"), led the fight against too much talk of
God in the 12 steps, which resulted in the compromise "God as we understood
Him."
- - - -
No one knows exactly when Hank had started drinking again, but in the diary Lois
Wilson kept there are various September 1939 entries that mention that Hank was
drunk. He did get back on the program for a short time at some later date but it
didn't last. Nevertheless, A.A. owes Hank a debt of gratitude for his many
contributions during his all too short period of sobriety.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6515
During the writing of the Big Book, Fitz insisted that the book should express
Christian doctrines and use Biblical terms and expressions. Hank and Jim B.
opposed him. The compromise was "God as we understood Him."

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6588
If you listen to Jimmy Burwell's tapes (Jimmy "The Atheist") he talks about how
as early as 1937 the drunks among the early Oxford Groupers were meeting in
Bill's house at 182 Clinton Street, and often at Stewart's Cafeteria nearby.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5489
The story began when Bob B., a paint store owner in Richmond, got sober by
visiting a business associate in Philadelphia, a man named JIM BURWELL who had
gotten sober in 1938 and had started A.A. in that city.

Jim's story in the Big Book is called "The Vicious Cycle" (it is on page 219 in
the current 4th edition).

Jim was the early New York A.A. group's first "self-proclaimed atheist," the one
who insisted that the phrase "as we understood Him" had to be added to the
reference to God in Steps 3 and 11.

__________________________________________

Original message from Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at
earthlink.net)


Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we
understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit
an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?

Was his/her story published?

I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured
Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.

As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly
being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of
references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious
beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories
and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.

The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a
pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and
agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st
Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very
curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way
to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?

Amelia

0 -1 0 0
7230 Glenn Chesnut
Re: God as we understood Him: goddess worship God as we understood Him: goddess worship 3/16/2011 4:31:00 PM

In a preceding message, Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> wrote: "Glenn, I'm
puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term 'as we understood Him.' I
would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's
philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?"

- - - -

HIM VS. HER

Amelia, at the time the Big Book was written, teachers who taught English
grammar would instruct their students that:
(1) when you knew that a person was female, you used the pronouns she and her.
(2) when you knew that a person was male, you used the pronouns he and him.
(3) But he and him were the generic gender-neutral pronouns, so you also used he
and him if you did not know whether the person was male or female.

So in 1939, the year the Big Book was published, the phrase "God as we
understood Him" could be read as referring to either a male God or a female
Goddess.

But the world had already begun to change. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movement

The first wave of the modern feminist movement concluded (in the United States)
with the passage in 1919-20 (right after the First World War) of the Nineteenth
Amendment to the United States Constitution, which granted women the right to
vote.

The second wave of the U.S. feminist movement began after the Second World War.
By the 1970's and 1980's, the feminist movement was regularly arguing that the
traditional grammatical conventions were demeaning of women. You should only use
he and him in situations where you knew that the person was male. If you meant
what you were saying to refer to both males and females, you had to use phrases
like "he or she," "him or her," and other phrases of that sort.

(One thing to keep in mind though, when discussing this issue, is that the
gender of the third person singular pronoun was for the most part only really a
big issue in English in the 1970's and 80's. In European languages like French,
German, Spanish, Italian, and so on, that still assign a grammatical gender to
all nouns, grammatical gender is not felt to be the same as sexual gender. And
in some of the other languages of the world, like Finnish, so I am told, there
are third person singular pronouns which can refer to either a male or a female,
which neatly eliminates the problem.)

- - - -

GODDESS WORSHIP

Like the him vs. her issue, except for a few relatively isolated examples, it
was not until the 1970's and 1980's that Goddess worship became much talked
about in the western world. I doubt that anybody among the early AA group in
1939 would have thought of Goddess worship as a possibility. It would have been
highly odd at that point, at any rate.

So it was not until the 1970's and 1980's that any big problem could have been
created by large enough numbers of AA members in the western world choosing to
worship goddesses like Isis or Kali or the Triple Goddess (the Maid, the Mother,
and the Crone).

The original historical precedent that was set in 1938-1939 for interpreting the
phrase "God as we understood Him" would nevertheless make it clear that using
feminine symbols and metaphors to refer to your higher power would be perfectly
legitimate in AA. If that is the way you understand God, then that is the way
you should worship her.

- - - -

PERSONAL VS. IMPERSONAL SUPREME BEING

As a side point, in a book I just wrote, I argue that the real issue in western
religion has always been the same one which you see in eastern religions. Some
kind of higher power or supreme principle or architect of the universe or ground
of being necessarily exists. The question is whether this is an impersonal
absolute or a highly personal god or goddess. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and
Spirituality

paperback:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywo\
rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15

kindle:
http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZRN82/\
ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr


In the Christian tradition over the past two thousand years, some theologians
(like St. Augustine, John Wesley, and the St. Macarius who wrote the Fifty
Spiritual Homilies) had warmly personalistic conceptions of God. But there were
many other famous Christian theologians who regarded the higher power as
completely (or nearly completely) impersonal. St. Denis' higher power (c. 500
A.D.) was completely impersonal, and the God described by St. Gregory of Nyssa
in the fourth century was almost completely impersonal, as was the God described
by St. Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century. Paul Tillich (Reinhold
Niebuhr's colleague at Union Theological Seminary in New York City) taught that
God was a completely impersonal ground of being.

In the AA tradition, Richmond Walker, the author of the Twenty-four Hour book,
taught a God who was warmly personal, and who wanted to be friends with us for
the same reason that we wanted to be friends with him -- we felt isolated and
lonely all by ourselves. (A really fascinating view of God and the reason for
the creation of this universe.)

But do not fall into the trap of believing that it is only us "moderns" who
reject the fundamentalist Protestant belief in God as an old man with a white
beard sitting on a throne, and that it is only us "moderns" who believe in
esoteric New Age spirituality and are fascinated by Asian religions. Emmet Fox
taught (in his book on "The Sermon on the Mount") that God in and of himself is
just a bunch of eternal laws and principles, and that God becomes personal only
in and through us individual human beings, when we acted as agents of those
higher laws of love and positive thinking.

- - - -

HINDUISM

And Fox's other most popular book, "Power through Constructive Thinking," taught
the doctrine of reincarnation, and Richmond Walker began the 24 Hour book with a
quote from the Hindu tradition, to make the point that AA people could draw from
all the spiritual traditions of the world.

- - - -

THE HEBREW BIBLE

And the Hebrew Bible (what Christians call the Old Testament) actually used
feminine imagery to describe God more often than it used the metaphor of God as
a Father. In the New Testament, Jesus was described as the incarnation of both
the male Logos principle and the female Sophia principle: that is, Jesus was
explicitly said to be not only the "Word" but also the "Wisdom" of God,
referring to Sophia, Lady Wisdom, who in one passage in the Old Testament was
described as the Creator of the world -- see http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html .
So it would be a mistake to try to argue that God is always portrayed as male in
the Judeo-Christian tradition.
_________________________________________

Original message from Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at
earthlink.net)


Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we
understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit
an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?

Was his/her story published?

I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured
Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.

As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly
being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of
references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious
beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories
and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.

The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a
pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and
agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st
Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very
curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way
to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?

Amelia

0 -1 0 0
7231 Glenn Chesnut
Re: God as we understood Him: agnostics God as we understood Him: agnostics 3/16/2011 4:33:00 PM

In a preceding message, Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> wrote: "I recently
reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA.
Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I
began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word
to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital
spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with
meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect
of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is
in the process of publishing a pamphlet 'which focuses on spirituality that
includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in
Alcoholics Anonymous.' This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to
reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse
of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian'
spirituality?"

The Greek prefix a- means no, not, un-

>>The term "theist" refers to someone who believes that God (Theos) exists.

>>The term "a-theist" therefore refers to someone who believes that there is no
God, that God (Theos) does not exist.

>>Ginosko in ancient Greek meant "I know," so an "a-gnostic" is (literally)
someone caught in a state of "un-knowing."

- - - -

THE RISE OF WESTERN ATHEISM IN THE 1840'S

In a book I just wrote, I talk on pp. 123-124 about the Rise of Modern Atheism
in the 1840's. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality

paperback:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywo\
rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15

kindle:
http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZRN82/\
ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr


TRADITIONAL THEISTS: Some people in the western world rejected these new
atheistic ideas completely, and kept on trying to defend the old conceptualities
of the ancient and medieval worlds: the Bible was literally true, the church
authorities were infallible, people walked on water and rose from the dead, and
so on.

THE NEW ATHEISTS (1840 and afterwards): Other people in the western world
embraced these new atheistic ideas enthusiastically. A new world of science --
where the scientists were rapidly gaining infallible truth and explaining all
things -- was going to lead the human race out of the darkness of the past.
There would no longer be any uncontrollable natural phenomena killing people
(like earthquakes and tsunamis?), everyone in the world would be given excellent
health care (through universal health care) so that no one would ever get sick
and die any longer, our machines (oil drilling rigs and nuclear power plants)
would never malfunction and kill people, and so on.

"AGNOSTICS": But there were many people caught in the middle: they had been
brought up with traditional religious beliefs and did not want to let go of
them, and yet they had no real answers to all the attacks that the atheists were
making on their most cherished articles of faith. And there were others who had
tired of the whole debate, and insisted that they weren't going to believe
anything at all, past this point, without some kind of scientific evidence to
support it.

- - - -

THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON AGNOSTICISM

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Thomas Henry Huxley gave a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in
1876, in which he coined to word "agnostic" (not-knowing, un-knowing,
non-knowing) to describe his philosophy, which was a rejection of ALL claims of
spiritual or mystical knowledge. "Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed
but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry."

But in the many years that followed, the word "agnostic" got adapted to describe
all sorts of different approaches to religion. The Wikipedia article describes
some of these varieties:

===========================================
*Agnostic atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have
belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to
know that a deity does not exist.

*Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of
any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

*Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either
the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist
appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the
question is largely academic.

*Ignosticism: The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward
before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed.
If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist
view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable.
A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and
agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and
agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be
argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or
a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth.

*Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent
agnosticism"): The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a
deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of
our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another
subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a
deity exists or not, and neither can you."

*Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal
agnosticism"): The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is
currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold
judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't
know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence
we can find something out."
===========================================

As far as I can tell, there are very few AA members who genuinely understand
what the term "agnostic" originally meant, that is, what the word meant between
1876 and 1939. Maybe a handful, but not many. And as far as I can see, the term
"agnostic" has now come to mean so many different things, that it hardly has any
real meaning left at all.

So Amelia, I think that you are probably correct when you say that, at New York
AA headquarters, the term AGNOSTIC is "being used as a code word to mean
non-Christian," that is, as a "way to talk about 'other than Christian'
spirituality."

But for myself, I think that using the word "agnostic" in this way is a misuse
of terms, because the chapter in the Big Book called "We Agnostics" was an
attempt to deal with the skeptical position which Thomas Henry Huxley put
forward in 1876. If we want a pamphlet talking about Hindu, Buddhist, New Age,
Native American spirituality, worship of the Triple Goddess, wicca, modern
California gnostic and kabbalistic groups, and other things of that sort, that
they should have titled it something different, like perhaps "Varieties of AA
Spirituality." And I also think that some of the hostility toward the pamphlet
(among a lot of AA members) might lessen to a degree if it were retitled in that
fashion. But that's just my two cents worth.
__________________________________________

Original message from Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at
earthlink.net)

Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we
understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit
an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?

Was his/her story published?

I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured
Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.

As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly
being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of
references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious
beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories
and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.

The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a
pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and
agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st
Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very
curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way
to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?

Amelia

0 -1 0 0
7232 oneserene1
Re: Looking for a photo of Jim Newton Looking for a photo of Jim Newton 3/12/2011 8:42:00 PM

If you can get ahold of Mr. Newton's book 'Uncommon Friends' there are shots of
him and Bud within it (as well as photos of Messrs Edison, Ford, Firestone Sr,
Carrel and Lindbergh). There is also an account of Bud's drinking problem in the
book. It is available from amazon.com.

Michael R.

- - - -
"Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@...> wrote:
>
> Could someone kindly send me a picture of the Jim Newton who helped Bud
Firestone find sobriety?
>
> Bob S.
>
> Mail to: <rstonebraker212@...>
> (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)
>
> Bob Stonebraker
> 212 SW 18th Street
> Richmond, Indiana 47374
> phone (765) 935-0130

0 -1 0 0
7233 Robert Stonebraker
Thanks for the photos of Jim Newton Thanks for the photos of Jim Newton 3/17/2011 4:25:00 PM

Dear History Lovers Group,

I would like to offer thanks to Michael R. for his suggestion, and to the many
others who have sent pictures of Jim Newton and Bud Firestone. . . . I now have
all the photos I needed for a new book I have recently finished: "A PRE-AA
HISTORY BOOK, A Study of Synchronic Events Between Years 1926 and 1935 which
culminated in the Birth of Alcoholics Anonymous."

It is still undergoing a final proof reading, but will have a web address soon.
Of course, I can send it to you via PDF upon request, but it is just over 6 MBs.

Bob S., Richmond, Indiana
<rstonebraker212@comcast.net>
(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

- - - -

Original message from: oneserene1
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011
Subject: Re: Looking for a photo of Jim Newton

If you can get ahold of Mr. Newton's book 'Uncommon Friends' there are shots of
him and Bud within it (as well as photos of Messrs Edison, Ford, Firestone Sr,
Carrel and Lindbergh). There is also an account of Bud's drinking problem in the
book. It is available from amazon.com.

Michael R.

0 -1 0 0
7234 Tom Hickcox
Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy 3/17/2011 4:23:00 PM

I came across in the "A.A.'s Legacy of Service" pamphlet a reference to a person
I had not heard of before.

Bill writes, "In New York, Knickerbocker Hospital provided a ward under the care
of our first friend in medicine, Dr. William Duncan Silkworth, where he was
assisted by a redheaded A.A. nurse known as Teddy."

Can someone fill me in on this person? It infers Teddy was an A.A., a nurse,
and working in the alcoholic ward.

From Tommy H in Baton Rouge
(still more or less redheaded and married
to an alcoholic nurse, also in recovery)

0 -1 0 0
7235 Charles Knapp
Changes in the chapter To Wives Changes in the chapter To Wives 3/18/2011 1:16:00 AM

Hello Group,

I was asked a question I could not fully answer and was hoping someone could
help me finish my answer. It seems there were some changes in the wording in
part of a paragraph in Chapter 8 "To The Wives." I am looking for anyone who
might have access to all 16 printings the 1st edition Big Book. In particular I
am looking for the wording in printings 2 thru 7. I have the different wording
from the manuscript, 1st printing and printings 8 thru 16. So all I need is the
changes in printings 2 thru 7.

Here is what I have so far:

Original Manuscript:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain
state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they
would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had
no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"

1st Edition 1st printing page 127:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain
state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they
would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had
no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"

1st Edition; 8th thru 13th printing page 127:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have
been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two
hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse
whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!"

2nd, 3rd and 4th Editions page 114:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been
working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first
published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals
of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!"

Any help will be appreciated
Charles from Wisconsin

0 -1 0 0
7236 lanhamcook
Emmet Fox''s secretary Emmet Fox''s secretary 3/18/2011 3:08:00 AM

In wikipedia it states that:

"Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics
Anonymous co-founder Bill W., and partly as a result of this connection early AA
groups often went to hear Fox. His writing, especially "The Sermon on the
Mount," became popular in AA."

I was curious to know if anyone knows man was who worked with Alcoholics
Anonymous?

Anybody able to shed some light on this?

thanks

JLC

0 -1 0 0
7237 jax760
Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy 3/18/2011 12:24:00 PM

Hi Tommy,

I believe if you check AA comes of Age and Language of the Heart you will find
several references to Teddy.

Regards,
John B

0 -1 0 0
7238 OedipusTax
Anne Ripley Smith''s date of birth Anne Ripley Smith''s date of birth 3/18/2011 9:53:00 AM

I believe the correct date of Anne Ripley Smith's birth is March 3, 1881.
Listed that way in Wikipedia, www.barefootworld, and www.trueknowledge.com

- - - -

From GFC the moderator:

NO, CORRECT DATE OF BIRTH SEEMS TO BE MARCH 21, 1881

AAHistoryLovers message no. 1145 says March 21, 1881:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1145

Find A Grave gives her year of birth as 1881:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=5769885

This larger photo of the tombstone clearly shows her year of birth as 1881:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/the_smiths.html

Arthur S. Narrative Timeline of AA History, the top AA date list, thoroughly
researched, says Mar 21, 1881:
http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html

>> Mar 21, 1881 Anne Robinson Ripley was born in
>> the Chicago suburb of Oak Park, Illinois to
>> Joseph and Joyce Pierce Ripley.(Grapevine Jun 1950)

(It should be noted that this issue of the Grapevine
came out only a year after Anne's death, and that it
also came out BEFORE Dr. Bob died, so it is probably
trustworthy about the date of birth. Or at any rate,
it is the one I would go with.)

Glenn C.

0 -1 0 0
7239 Robert Stonebraker
Pre-AA History Book Pre-AA History Book 3/18/2011 2:13:00 PM

AA History Lovers Group,

I have just finished writing a new AA history book concerning the period between
1926 and our actual beginning in 1935. The 28 pages can be downloaded from this
address, it may take about a minute to open:

http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Pre_AA_History_Book_2011.pdf

I hope you enjoy the book. All information has been researched to the best of
my ability, with much help from AA historians around the country. Should you
decide to print these 28 pages, I have found it preferable to use photo paper.

It is convenient - and inexpensive - to place the pages in a 24-page
"Presentation Cover Book" with transparent sleeves (available at most office
supply stores). The advantage being that you can add/subtract new information at
will. The paradoxical thing about AA history is that something new is always
popping up.

Bob S.

******************************
In our history lies our hope!
******************************

0 -1 0 0
7240 looking@pigsfly.com>
Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors 3/11/2011 6:42:00 PM

There were two articles by Arthur H. Cain, which
can be read in full in the AAHistoryLovers (they
were posted back in May 2003):

Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?"
Harper's Magazine, February 1963
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/994

Dr. Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Can Be Cured--Despite A.A."
Saturday Evening Post, September 19, 1964
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1012

>> They were later copied from the AAHistoryLovers
>> by Agent Orange and posted on his anti-AA website, see
>> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-ahcain.html

The articles reach this conclusion: Alcoholics Anonymous should not be a cult
for the retardation of the "arrested" alcoholic. I do not suggest for a moment
that a single A.A. quit the fellowship. On the contrary, I strongly urge
sticking with it. To anyone who is having trouble with alcohol I say: try A.A.
first; it's the answer for most people.

But to those who insist upon serving A.A. as if it were a holy and apostolic
church, I say, Beware. Observe those members who seem genuinely serene. Talk
with those who have been in A.A. a long time and who really practice "live and
let live." Though A.A. is an important part of their lives, it is an adjunct,
not the whole. They have crossed the bridge from arrested alcoholism to true
recovery.

0 -1 0 0
7241 edgarc@aol.com
Two other Harper''s magazine articles (very different) Two other Harper''s magazine articles (very different) 3/12/2011 12:53:00 AM

Ronnie . . . Re your note below about the Arthur H. Cain article in Harper's
magazine, it would only be fair to balance the Harper's/AA relationship by
citing the beautiful piece in "Elpenor" in the October 1986 issue and the
"Drunk's Club" piece by "Clancy Martin" in the January 2011 issue.

Edgar C
Sarasota, Florida

0 -1 0 0
7242 Dan Roe
Clancy W. Martin article in Harper''s Magazine Clancy W. Martin article in Harper''s Magazine 3/12/2011 8:49:00 AM

Clancy W. Martin, "The drunk's club: A.A., the cult that cures," in Harper's
Magazine, January 2011. Although it will cost you to read it online, the text is
given in the magazine's archive at

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2011/01/0083250


Dan

0 -1 0 0
7243 Glenn Chesnut
Arthur H. Cain''s apology to Bill Wilson for Saturday Evening Post article Arthur H. Cain''s apology to Bill Wilson for Saturday Evening Post article 3/18/2011 4:17:00 PM

From Mel B. <melb@accesstoledo.com> (melb at accesstoledo.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3984

"The Saturday Evening Post did run a nasty
article in the Sept. 19, 1964, issue by Arthur
Cain, the same man who had written "Alcoholics
Anonymous---Cult or Cure?" for the February
1963 Harper's Magazine. Cain wrote Bill a
letter of apology for the Saturday Evening
Post article and blamed its nastiness on the
editors. Bill, though usually very kind to
critics, did not cut him much slack in replying
to Cain's apology."

"Jerome Ellison was a regular contributor to
The Saturday Evening Post and may have offered
his article to them. But he did publish one in
The Nation in 1964 and the title might have been
"Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?" He actually
called me for a piece of information while he
was writing the article, but he got it wrong
when it was published. The matter in question
concerned AA in southern Michigan and he somehow
converted it to AA in the South!"

"Jerry was upset with AA leadership because he
had been fired as editor of the Grapevine after
a short stay there. Bill took on the duty of
firing him, since Bill had recommended him for
the job. Jerry was an excellent writer and
editor but he had trouble getting along with
people at work."

____________________________________________

Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?"
Harper's Magazine, February 1963
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/994

Dr. Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Can Be Cured--Despite A.A."
Saturday Evening Post, September 19, 1964
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1012

0 -1 0 0
7244 James Bliss
Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors 3/11/2011 8:37:00 PM

From James Bliss and Mike (heat_cool2004)

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)

The Harper's magazine article by Arthur H. Cain could come across as
self-serving for the author. In the same manner he is addressing the various
things which he 'pinpointed' in AA and Alanon.

But, reading the article, I can see some truth in the statements. AA members and
meetings are far from perfect, and should never claim to be. The Big Book flatly
states 'our hats are off' to the man who can make an about-face on his drinking
through another method. It also states that we are to take advantage (use them
for what they do best) of various resources (Physicians, Psychologists,
Religious people). Also, we are not Doctors (as a whole although some members
are). Etc.

The article just points out the bad, and indicated a bad direction which might
have been being taken back then and I have witnessed in the present as well in
various meetings and members.

It is an interesting read though.

Jim

- - - -

From: "Mike" <heat_cool2004@yahoo.com>
(heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com)

Ron, I've found lots of yahoo groups devoted to blasting away at AA. I read a
lot of the posts, it helps me focus on what mental quirks might nudge people
back out. Lots of people in my area simply assume that someone who goes back
out does it because 'it's what alkies do", or they just quit attending meetings.
I've found that relapsers usually have some reason (real or fancied). ~Mike

0 -1 0 0
7245 Tom Hickcox
Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. 3/16/2011 5:08:00 PM

I have read, I think on our list, that Wilson considered the terms illness,
disease, malady, ailment synonymous. However, the quote indicates otherwise.
From msg. 5695:

The answer William Griffith Wilson gave when specifically asked about alcoholism
as disease after he had addressed the annual meeting of the National Catholic
Clergy Conference of Alcoholism in 1961: "We have never called alcoholism a
disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example,
there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart
ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism.
Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by
pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an
illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use."

End of quote.

I like his example of heart disease. We hear our reaction to alcohol as an
allergy, but no medical scientist would call it that as it doesn't meet the
medical definition of an allergy.

0 -1 0 0
7246 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. 3/18/2011 4:56:00 PM

Tommy,

You raise some good, provocative questions.

Just to give you my own reaction, I think that perhaps the fairest way to
describe the discussions about whether alcoholism was a disease or an illness or
whatever, might be to say that it was an "evolving concept" during AA's early
years.

And in 1960 to 61, the period you are looking at in your message, there were
indeed some changes going on, as you noted.

Dr. E. M. Jellinek for example only began supporting the use of the word
"disease" fairly late -- he did not publish "The Disease Concept of Alcoholism"
(New Haven: Hillhouse Press, 1960) for example, until a year before Bill W's
comment which you quote. Bill Swegan told me -- if I remember correctly -- that
Jellinek did not at all like the word "disease" however back in 1949, when he
studied with Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies.

The word "disease" appears only three times in the A.A. Big Book. It was used,
but it clearly wasn't the word they most preferred at that point in time (1939).
It is mentioned first on page 64 in discussing alcoholism, then again at the
beginning of the second part of the book in the story of Bill Dotson, the Akron
lawyer who was Alcoholics Anonymous Number Three. When Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob
visited Dotson in the hospital, they told him he had "a disease," and when he
explained his conversion to his wife, he told her he felt that God had cured him
"of this terrible disease." (AAWS, 1976: 187-188, 191)

THE OTHER TERMS USED IN THE BIG BOOK:

However, in spite of its avoidance of the specific word "disease," alcoholism is
referred to over and over again throughout the book as a "sickness," a "malady,"
and an "ailment," and alcoholics are characterized as persons who are "sick" or
"ill." In the Personal Stories section of the third edition of the Big Book,
one of the subtitles is "How Forty-Three Alcoholics Recovered From Their
Malady."

Sick, sick person, or sickness on pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101, 106, 107,
108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164.

Ill or illness on pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122, 139,
140, and 142.

The words ail or ailment are used on pages 135, 139, 140.

Malady appears on pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165.

ALLERGY:

Although it is true that alcoholism is not an allergy in the modern
understanding of allergic reactions (it does not produce a histamine response
for example), there was one extremely important insight contained in that early
speculation, that is usually totally ignored by the modern AA bashers who want
to argue that alcoholics should be able to go back to "controlled drinking," or
who sometimes even argue that they have "proven" that it can be done even by
full-fledged chronic alcoholics.

Once a person is allergic to bee stings, for example -- where their throats
close up so they cannot breathe and they experience other life-threatening
reactions of anaphylactic shock -- this cannot be "cured" so that the person can
go back to being stung by bees. The body's reaction to bee stings permanently
and irremediably changes, so that each subsequent bee sting produces an even
worse reaction.

It is the same thing with poison ivy allergic reactions and allergic reactions
to strawberries, onions, wheat, or what have you -- you cannot ever go back to
touching or eating those things and become "a normal social strawberry eater" or
whatever you want to call it.

Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense, anybody who has
seriously looked at modern scientific studies of the physiology of alcoholism
will find that in similar fashion, when the human body is exposed to enough
alcohol over a long enough period of time (for genetic reasons, with many Native
Americans, this happens frighteningly quickly, in just a few weeks of regular
drinking), the body progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that
is, the way it physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is
irreversible.

Until the very end of the progression, the person will find that it takes more
and more alcohol to produce the same inner psychological feeling of ease and
calm and euphoria. Once the progression has gone so far that it takes an
alcoholic large quantities to produce that feeling, past that point, taking one
or two drinks of alcohol would have little appreciable effect at all, in terms
of giving the person a satisfying "buzz."

What I find shameful about the AA bashers who claim that alcoholics can
successfully go back to "controlled drinking" -- who accuse AA of being a "cult"
suitable only for the naive and scientifically ignorant -- is that although they
boastfully proclaim themselves as the defenders of "real scientific thinking,"
they have never even bothered to read what real science has actually shown about
the physiological reactions and metabolic processes involving alcohol ingestion
in the human body. In other words, AA bashers of this sort are total frauds.

To put it in language they can understand, you can turn a cucumber into a
pickle, but not vice versa. Likewise a psychiatrist or psychologist -- and this
includes even people like Dr. Arthur H. Cain of Harper's Magazine fame -- cannot
in fact take a chronic alcoholic's pickled body and turn it back into a body
which has a "virgin" reaction to alcohol ingestion.

So although referring to alcoholism as an "allergy" in the Big Book was at one
level an unfortunate choice of words, because that is certainly not in line with
modern scientific understanding of either allergic reactions or of alcoholism,
it nevertheless contained an important kernel of truth: once alcoholism has
developed, you cannot physiologically become "un-alcoholic" any more than you
can become "un-allergic" to poison ivy (or what have you).

Glenn

___________________________________________

Original message from Tommy Hickcox:

I have read, I think on our list, that Wilson considered the terms illness,
disease, malady, ailment synonymous. However, the quote indicates otherwise.
From msg. 5695:

The answer William Griffith Wilson gave when specifically asked about alcoholism
as disease after he had addressed the annual meeting of the National Catholic
Clergy Conference of Alcoholism in 1961: "We have never called alcoholism a
disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example,
there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart
ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism.
Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by
pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an
illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use."

End of quote.

I like his example of heart disease. We hear our reaction to alcohol as an
allergy, but no medical scientist would call it that as it doesn't meet the
medical definition of an allergy.

0 -1 0 0
7247 Al Welch
RE: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line 3/14/2011 9:46:00 PM

From Al Welch and Laurie Andrews:

- - - -

From "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>
(welch at a-1associates.com)

Wow! What treasure!

- - - -

From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

There is valuable archival material relating to AA in the UK at Stepping Stones.
When I was visiting in 1990,en route to the Seattle convention,I read Lois's
diary of her and Bill's trip to Europe in (I think) 1950 in which she recorded
their time in the UK.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Moore <johnmoore@gmail.com>
(johnmoore at gmail.com)
Subject: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line

A project is underway to microfilm the Stepping Stones archival material,
digitize it, and eventually make it available to researchers on line.

0 -1 0 0
7248 OedipusTax
Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year 3/18/2011 9:42:00 PM

Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article
does not say March 21 but March 3:

Anne Ripley Smith
March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949
The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A.
Wife of Dr. Bob
"The Mother of A.A."

A Tribute to Anne Smith
A.A. Grapevine, June 1950

SOMEHOW we believe Dr. Bob's beloved Anne would prefer this simple tribute
beyond all others. It was written by one who knew her well. It came from the
bottom of a grateful heart which sensed that extravagant language and trumpeting
phrases would serve only to obscure a life that had deep meaning.

It is doubtful if now, only one year after her passing, that the true
significance of Anne Smith's life can be realized. Certainly it cannot yet be
written, for the warmth of her love, and charm of her personality and the
strength of her humility are still upon those of us who knew her.

For Anne Smith was far more than a gracious lady. She was one of four people,
chosen by a Higher Destiny, to perform a service to mankind. How great this
contribution is, only time and an intelligence beyond man's can determine. With
Dr. Bob, Lois and Bill, Anne Smith stepped into history, not as a heroine but as
one willing to accept God's will and ready to do what needed to be done.

Her kitchen was the battleground and, while Anne poured the black coffee, a
battle was fought there which has led to your salvation and mine. It was she,
perhaps, who first understood the miracle of what passed between Bill and Dr.
Bob. And, in the years to follow, it was she who knew with divine certainty that
what had happened in her home would happen in other homes again, again, and yet
again.

For Anne understood the simplicity of faith. Perhaps that's why God chose her
for us. Perhaps that's why Anne never once thought of herself as a 'woman of
destiny' but went quietly about her job. Perhaps that's why, when she said to a
grief-torn wife, "Come in, my dear, you're with friends now -- friends who
understand" that fear and loneliness vanished. Perhaps that's why Anne always
sat in the rear of the meetings, so she could see the newcomers as they came,
timid and doubtful. . .and make them welcome.

There's a plaque on the wall of Akron's St. Thomas hospital dedicated to Anne.
It's a fine memorial. But there's a finer one lying alongside the typewriter as
this is being written -- letters to Dr. Bob from men and women who knew and
loved her well. Each tries to put in words what is felt in many hearts. They
fail -- and that's the tribute beyond price. For real love, divine love, escapes
even the poet's pen.

So, in the simplest way we know, and speaking for every AA everywhere, let's
just say 'Thanks, Dr. Bob, for sharing her with us.' We know that she's in a
Higher Group now, sitting well to the back, with an eye out for newcomers,
greeting the strangers and listening for their names!

End of Grapevine article ...............
_________________________________________________

Original message #1145 from "planternva"
<jscarpine@juno.com> (jscarpine at juno.com)
dated Jul 11, 2003

Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year

The stone on her and Bob's grave says she was born in 1881. (Written
in stone?) Jim S.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Jim Blair <jblair@v...> wrote:

> Arthur wrote
>
> Can anyone confirm or correct with a citation to a written
reference source?
>
> The June 1950 issue of the GV had an article on Anne Smith and it
notes her birth date as March 21, 1881.
>
> Jim

0 -1 0 0
7249 J. Lobdell
RE: Emmet Fox''s secretary Emmet Fox''s secretary 3/18/2011 10:34:00 PM

Harold A. (Al) S-------, who wrote both the Responsibility Pledge (1965) and the
Declaration of Unity (1970). He was also the author of a book on Bert D: Hard
Hat, Inebriate, Scholar (Harbor House, Memphis TN, 1975). He moved from NY to FL
in the 1970s and died there.

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: lanhamcook@yahoo.co.uk
>
> In wikipedia it states that:
>
> "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics
Anonymous co-founder Bill W., and partly as a result of this connection early AA
groups often went to hear Fox. His writing, especially "The Sermon on the
Mount," became popular in AA."
>
> I was curious to know if anyone knows man was who worked with Alcoholics
Anonymous?
>
> JLC

0 -1 0 0
7250 ron.fulkerson@comcast.net
Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy 3/19/2011 7:44:00 AM

Tommy,

She told her story in the Saturday Evening Post magazine 10/18/1952.

ronf

0 -1 0 0
7251 Bent Christensen
Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/16/2011 3:45:00 PM

Dear Friends
 
We have an interesting situation here Denmark. In shot some AA groups have
applied for and recieved money at the municipality in order to pay rent by
literature and so on.

This was in the local newspaper and thus our GSO heard about it and went to the
groups in order to guide them.
 
GSO recommended that the groups should make an association/club which could
apply for contributions and then the groups could continue as always.
 
Some of us think this is simply a workaround or traditions and told GSO so.
GSO replies that there is a speciel Danish tradition not to pay rent. Thus we
can not use the guidelines regarding AA Clubs.
I am not sure if the statement regarding rent means in AA or in generel.
 
Now my questions to you good people are:
1. Is it common practice that voluntary organizations do not pay rent where you
live?
2. Do your AA group pay rent?
3. Do you have any experience to share regarding this matter?
 
Bent Christensen
Valmuevej 17
6000 Kolding
Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43
www.synlighjemmeside.dk

0 -1 0 0
7252 ricktompkins
Re: God as we understood Him: agnostics God as we understood Him: agnostics 3/16/2011 10:03:00 PM

This is a clarification to the sharing of what's in intuited (Amelia)'s post
about the General Service Conference agenda and her final question. The
Conference Literature Committee is planning its discussion toward recommending
approval or disapproval on two agenda items:

Item B: Review progress report from the trustee's Literature Committee on the
development of literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories
from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous.

Item G: Consider a request to reconsider the 2010 Conference Advisory Action
that "the trustees Literature Committee develop literature which focuses on
spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are
successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous."

On one hand, the trustees' Literature Committee is giving a progress report on
the feasibility (want vs. need vs. cost) and format (length, type of publishing)
of new literature that would most likely be a pamphlet. That's what the 2010
Conference instructed them to develop: the possibilities.

On the other hand, item G's reconsideration request is to either recommend
Conference approval or disapproval on the "non-religious" spirituality
pamphlet which was approved to proceed last year.

The deluge of input on item G suggests a lot of constructive ideas have been
submitted for the project since last year, on both the pro and con for AAWS to
undertake such a new work of literature. In the end, only the Conference
Committee on Literature will make the recommendation to the Conference whether
to stop or proceed.

If the proposed pamphlet proceeds, the 2011 two newly Appointed Committee
Members on the Literature Committee will certainly be doing a lot of reading,
reviewing submitted work.

The AA Grapevine, Inc. has previously published four soft cover books on
spirituality without the heavy input of religious faith: two versions of "Came
To Believe, " another on "Spirituality" and another called "AA Around the
World." The question is, should AAWS, Inc. publish one, too? Give it time, and
the AA Grapevine will publish another one on AA spirituality.

In my home turf, the current issue of the Chicago Area's "Here's How" has six
articles on spirituality and only one of the articles mentions God. And in my
group and other meetings, I can understand many who are continually developing
their understanding of God, those holding an unshakable belief in the God of the
Bible, those who refuse to consider any belief because of past experience, and
those who have never been effectively exposed to God-consciousness. Call it the
whole gamut of faiths: those who say they know and those still finding out.
Anyone can get sober with or without a religious faith.

Intuited wrote: I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these
terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?"

My answer is "yes."

It could be one of AA's greatest strengths about "God as we understood Him" to
appreciate any member's generic, poorly defined 'Creator' to be called "God"
because even that slight belief keeps that member's recovery in focus. Bill W.
wrestled with the "God" concept when he first got sober, too.

I'm not uneasy when I speak of God with the name "God" when I personally have my
own belief and don't feel the need to explain it. One-on-one, it's all right for
me to explain when asked, but otherwise in general group sharing it's always
come across as a distraction.

I've been to many Pentecostal services, seminars, and plenty of AA Open Speaker
meetings, and while I love them both their intent and the destinations are very
different!

Still sober,
Rick, Illinois

0 -1 0 0
7253 kimrowe24
Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/17/2011 7:47:00 PM

I did a careful statistical study of my home group, employing the same criteria
used in the Big Book and in early AA practice, and verified the old 50% / 25%
success rate. AA still works that way today.

I decided to do work out the statistics on my home group's success rate, after I
recently read an article bashing AA's printed recovery rate, stating that AA was
lucky to achieve 2% on a good day, and even less during the holiday season.
After reading the article, I realized that there were three important things
that had to be asked:
(1) how did they define success,
(2) who made up their test group, and
(3) what was the criteria for being in the test group.

This is what the Big Book states: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really
tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some
relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed
improvement."

At the time the book was written, 4 years 4 months was the maximum sobriety of
AA's test group, but many had only been sober for a few months. The Big Book
defined success as continuously sober for anywhere from a few months to over
four years.

AA's test group was made up of all volunteers. See AA Number Three's story, pg
186, where Bill and Bob ask Bill D the four questions: "Do you want to quit
drinking?" "Can you quit of your own accord?" "Do you believe in a Higher
Power?" and "Are you willing to go to this Higher Power and ask for help, calmly
and without any reservations?" It was harder to get into AA back then than it
is now, no one could just walk in and sit in their meetings. There were no
court referrals, no treatment center tourist, and no marriage saving members in
this group.

AA's test group was further restricted to those who "came to A.A. and really
tried." What did Bill W mean when he said "really tried"? The answer is in
chapter 5, How It Works. It defines "really tried" as thoroughly following the
path, completely giving themselves to this simple program, being rigorously
honest, going to any lengths, taking certain steps, being fearless and thorough
from the very start, letting go of our old ideas absolutely, finding a Higher
Power, and taking the suggestions.

I went to my home group. I explained to them that I wanted to conduct an
informal survey. They agreed. Then I explained that I only wanted to conduct
the survey with those who volunteered to come to AA for help. Next I explained
that the survey would be limited to those who really tried (see above). The
results of my survey is that 50% of that group got sober at once and remained
that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who
stayed on with A.A. showed improvement.

Now what about all those other people, the non-volunteers, or the half measure
group? Well the Big Book talks about them too, "Other thousands came to a few
A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great
numbers of these, about two out of three, began to return as time passed."

Years later, and our home group has the exact same success rate as our founders
if we apply the same test criteria as our founders.

0 -1 0 0
7254 wgwalker3
Re: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line 3/18/2011 7:00:00 PM

Hi Group!
After the initial mention of this project earlier in the week, I emailed
Stepping Stones and asked how to "earmark" contributions toward this project. I
was advised that ALL contributions submitted via the website for Stepping Stones
will go toward this project. They indicated they are very grateful that any of
us might announce this project at our meetings, groups, district and area
meetings. Thanks to all of you for your participation here!

Yours in Fellowship,
Bill Walker

0 -1 0 0
7255 Glen Morehead
Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? 3/19/2011 12:33:00 AM

Glenn,

I would appreciate some clarification, particularly literature references
supporting your [condensed] statement below:

Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense....when the human
body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time....the body
progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it
physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible.

I am not clear whether you are speaking metaphorically and psychologically, or
biochemically. Big difference. Please clarify and aim me to a further
understanding of exactly what you DO mean to say, and what the literature says.
There is no dispute on my part that there is an irreversible change, and that we
do in fact "cross a line," only the info you are citing to support this.

Best rgds,

Glen M
5-11-03

0 -1 0 0
7256 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? 3/23/2011 5:10:00 PM

In response to the message from Glen Morehead
<glenm7@yahoo.com> (glenm7 at yahoo.com)

????

I said in my message that I was talking about the way the body "metabolizes
alcohol" and "the way it physiologically responds to alcohol." That certainly
doesn't mean "metaphorically" or "psychologically," in anybody's language.

I did my B.S. degree and half of a Ph.D. (at Iowa State University) in
chemistry, and my first published journal article was one in Radiation Chemistry
investigating certain aspects of what happens to the aldehyde linkage in
proteins when the human body suffers an overdose of radiation. So I do know what
acetaldehyde and acetic acid and all these things are.

(To sum up the findings of the research group to which I belonged, the radiation
knocks off free radicals -- fragments of the protein chain, plus free radicals
from other molecules present in the cells, such as water, sodium chloride,
potassium chloride, and so on -- which then reattach to the wrong parts of the
protein chain, or to one another, or to other chemicals present, to form
poisonous or non-functional chemical molecules, including such things as
chloroform and hydrochloric acid. One proposed treatment for people who have
been overexposed to radiation was therefore to give them substances that would
preferentially absorb those free radicals.)

So if you prefer the word "biochemically," I understand the difference between a
literary metaphor and a chemical reaction, and we'll use the word biochemical
instead. The volume of literature on this is so voluminous, I cannot even begin
to start listing all the journal articles you would have to read, but if you
start with the following references, you can track them down for yourself. See
for example,

>> Alcohol also is metabolized in the liver by the enzyme cytochrome P450IIE1
(CYP2E1), which may be increased after chronic drinking. Lieber, C.S. Metabolic
consequences of ethanol. The Endocrinologist 4(2):127-139, 1994.

>> Long-term alcohol abuse produces physiological changes in the brain such as
tolerance and physical dependence. Such brain chemistry changes maintain the
alcoholic's compulsive inability to stop drinking and result in alcohol
withdrawal syndrome upon discontinuation of alcohol consumption. Hoffman, PL.;
Tabakoff, B. (Jul 1996). "Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms."
Alcohol 31 (4): 333-40. For an abstract of this article (published back in 1996,
a long time ago) see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8879279

The biochemistry is backed up by other types of studies:

>> For example, does "moderation management" work? Almost no alcoholic who tries
this can continue to drink moderately for more than ten years without either (a)
relapsing back into uncontrolled drinking or (c) stopping all drinking
absolutely. See the study by George Vaillant at Harvard Medical School:

>> "A long-term (60 year) follow-up of two groups of alcoholic men concluded
that 'return to controlled drinking rarely persisted for much more than a decade
without relapse or evolution into abstinence.' Vaillant also noted that
'return-to-controlled drinking, as reported in short-term studies, is often a
mirage.'" Vaillant, GE (2003). "A 60-year follow-up of alcoholic men". Addiction
(Abingdon, England) 98 (8): 1043-51.

____________________________________________

AT SLIGHTLY GREATER LENGTH, SEE:

Alcohol Metabolism
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa35.htm

An informational bulletin from the NIAAA (National Institute of Alcohol Abuse
and Alcoholism)

(This government agency, which is part of the U.S. government's National
Institutes of Health, was originally put into its present form as part of the
process of passing the Hughes Act. Nancy Olson, the founder of the
AAHistoryLovers, was the principal senatorial aide in charge of the passage and
implementation of the Hughes Act.)

Metabolism is the body's process of converting ingested substances to other
compounds. Metabolism results in some substances becoming more, and some less,
toxic than those originally ingested. Metabolism involves a number of processes,
one of which is referred to as oxidation.

Through oxidation, alcohol is detoxified and removed from the blood, preventing
the alcohol from accumulating and destroying cells and organs. A minute amount
of alcohol escapes metabolism and is excreted unchanged in the breath and in
urine. Until all the alcohol consumed has been metabolized, it is distributed
throughout the body, affecting the brain and other tissues.

When alcohol is consumed, it passes from the stomach and intestines into the
blood, a process referred to as absorption. Alcohol is then metabolized by
enzymes, which are body chemicals that break down other chemicals. In the liver,
an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) mediates the conversion of alcohol
to acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is rapidly converted to acetate by other enzymes
and is eventually metabolized to carbon dioxide and water. Alcohol also is
metabolized in the liver by the enzyme cytochrome P450IIE1 (CYP2E1), which may
be increased after chronic drinking.* Most of the alcohol consumed is
metabolized in the liver, but the small quantity that remains unmetabolized
permits alcohol concentration to be measured in breath and urine.

*Lieber, C.S. Metabolic consequences of ethanol. The Endocrinologist
4(2):127-139, 1994.

Alcohol Metabolism--A Commentary by NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis, M.D.

With respect to its broader scientific application, metabolism, which has long
been studied, is emerging with new implications for the study of alcoholism and
its medical consequences. For instance, how is metabolism related to the
resistance of some individuals to alcoholism? We know that some inherited
abnormalities in metabolism (e.g., flushing reaction among some persons of Asian
descent) promote resistance to alcoholism. Recent data from two large-scale
NIAAA-supported genetics studies suggest that alcohol dehydrogenase genes may be
associated with differential resistance and vulnerability to alcohol. These
findings are important to the study of why some people develop alcoholism and
others do not. Studies of metabolism also can identify alternate paths of
alcohol metabolism, which may help explain how alcohol speeds up the elimination
of some substances (e.g., barbiturates) and increases the toxicity of others
(e.g., acetaminophen). This information will help health care providers in
advising patients on alcohol-drug interactions that may decrease the
effectiveness of some therapeutic medications or render others harmful.

FOR MORE DETAILS SEE this NIAAA publication:

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa72/aa72.htm

- - - -

Alcoholism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism

Long-term alcohol abuse produces physiological changes in the brain such as
tolerance and physical dependence. Such brain chemistry changes maintain the
alcoholic's compulsive inability to stop drinking and result in alcohol
withdrawal syndrome upon discontinuation of alcohol consumption.**

Alcohol's primary effect is the increase in stimulation of the GABAA receptor,
promoting central nervous system depression. With repeated heavy consumption of
alcohol, these receptors are desensitized and reduced in number, resulting in
tolerance and physical dependence. When alcohol consumption is stopped too
abruptly, the person's nervous system suffers from uncontrolled synapse firing.

Genetic differences exist between different racial groups which affect the risk
of developing alcohol dependence. For example, there are differences between
African, East Asian and Indo-racial groups in how they metabolize alcohol. These
genetic factors are believed to, in part, explain the differing rates of alcohol
dependence among racial groups.

**Hoffman, PL.; Tabakoff, B. (Jul 1996). "Alcohol dependence: a commentary on
mechanisms.". Alcohol Alcohol 31 (4): 333-40. For an abstract of this article
(published back in 1996, a long time ago) see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8879279 1996 Jul;31(4):333-40.
Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms. Hoffman PL, Tabakoff B.
Department of Pharmacology, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center,
Denver 80262, USA.
Abstract: The alcohol dependence syndrome includes the presence of alcohol
tolerance, physical dependence and an inability to control one's alcohol intake.
Studies are reviewed that implicate the mesolimbic dopaminergic systems, and the
gamma-aminobutyric acid-A (GABAA) and N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors as
mediators of various aspects of the alcohol dependence syndrome. It is suggested
that alcohol-induced changes in the GABAA receptor may play a role in certain
aspects of tolerance to alcohol and in altered abilities of an individual to
terminate alcohol intake. Chronic alcohol-induced increases in the activity of
NMDA receptors may contribute to the withdrawal signs that are the defining
feature of physical dependence on alcohol. It is hypothesized that decreased
mesolimbic dopaminergic function, which occurs during alcohol withdrawal, may be
involved in the compulsion to initiate and maintain alcohol drinking, another
aspect of the alcohol dependence syndrome. Furthermore, evidence is presented
that this decreased dopaminergic function could occur secondarily to the
increase in NMDA receptor function, such that the alcohol-induced increase in
NMDA receptor function could underlie both the overt withdrawal signs and the
compulsion to drink alcohol in the alcohol-dependent individual.

Does "moderation management" work? Almost no alcoholic who tries this can
continue to drink moderately for more than ten years without either (a)
relapsing back into uncontrolled drinking or (c) stopping all drinking
absolutely. See the study by George Vaillant at Harvard Medical School:

"A long-term (60 year) follow-up of two groups of alcoholic men concluded that
'return to controlled drinking rarely persisted for much more than a decade
without relapse or evolution into abstinence.' Vaillant also noted that
'return-to-controlled drinking, as reported in short-term studies, is often a
mirage.'"***

***Vaillant, GE (2003). "A 60-year follow-up of alcoholic men". Addiction
(Abingdon, England) 98 (8): 1043-51.


- - - -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_metabolism

Acetyl coenzyme A or acetyl-CoA is an important molecule in metabolism, used in
many biochemical reactions. Its main function is to convey the carbon atoms
within the acetyl group to the citric acid cycle to be oxidized for energy
production.

The reaction from ethanol to carbon dioxide and water is a complex one that
proceeds in three steps. Complete Reaction:
C2H6O(Ethanol)?C2H4O(Acetaldehyde)?C2H4O2(acetic Acid) ?Acetyl-CoA?3H2O+2CO2.

Ethanol is oxidized to acetaldehyde via the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase IB
(class I), beta polypeptide (ADH1B). The gene coding for this enzyme is 1.1.1.1
on chromosome 4, locus 4q21-q23.

Acetaldehyde is a highly unstable compound and quickly forms free radical
structures which are highly toxic if not quenched by antioxidants such as
ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and Vitamin B1 (thiamine). These free radicals can
result in damage to embryonic neural crest cells and can lead to severe birth
defects. Prolonged exposure of the kidney and liver to these compounds in
chronic alcoholics can lead to severe damage. The literature also suggests that
these toxins may have a hand in causing some of the ill effects associated with
hang-overs.

Acetaldehyde to acetic acid: Aldehyde dehydrogenase is the second enzyme of the
major oxidative pathway of alcohol metabolism. Two major liver isoforms of this
enzyme, cytosolic and mitochondrial, can be distinguished by their
electrophoretic mobilities, kinetic properties, and subcellular localizations.
Most Caucasians have two major isozymes, while approximately 50% of Asians have
only the cytosolic isozyme, missing the mitochondrial isozyme. A remarkably
higher frequency of acute alcohol intoxication among Asians than among
Caucasians could be related to the absence of the mitochondrial isozyme.
___________________________________

Original message from Glen Morehead <glenm7@yahoo.com>(glenm7 at yahoo.com)

Glenn,

I would appreciate some clarification, particularly literature references
supporting your [condensed] statement below:

Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense....when the human
body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time....the body
progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it
physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible.

I am not clear whether you are speaking metaphorically and psychologically, or
biochemically. Big difference. Please clarify and aim me to a further
understanding of exactly what you DO mean to say, and what the literature says.

There is no dispute on my part that there is an irreversible change, and that we
do in fact "cross a line," only the info you are citing to support this.

0 -1 0 0
7257 MarionORedstone@aol.com
Re: alcoholism as disease, biochemistry, diabetes, hypothyroidism alcoholism as disease, biochemistry, diabetes, hypothyroidism 3/19/2011 12:33:00 AM

Dear Glenn and all,

DR. BOB'S OPINION:

I am sure Ernie Kurtz would recall his notation: From E. Kurtz, PhD, Monograph
Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism (2000)

In 1938, while preparing the manuscript of the A.A. Big Book, Bill Wilson asked
Dr. Bob Smith (a proctologist) about the accuracy of referring to alcoholism as
a disease or one of its synonyms. Bob's reply, scribbled in a large hand on a
small sheet of his letterhead, read: "Have to use disease -- sick -- only way to
get across hopelessness," the final word doubly underlined and written in even
larger letters (Smith [Akron] to Wilson)

So the physician in the founding of A.A. suggested the disease concept.

AA PAMPHLET 44 QUESTIONS:

More recently the A.A. pamphlet 44 Questions states in answer to the question
what is alcoholism? "There are many different ideas about what alcoholism really
is. The explanation that seems to make sense to most A.A. members is that
alcoholism is an illness, a progressive illness,which can never be cured but
which, like some other illnesses, can be arrested. Going one step further, many
A.A.s feel that the illness represents the combination of a physical sensitivity
to alcohol and a mental obsession with drinking, which, regardless of
consequences, cannot be broken by will power alone [italics in the original]."

THE WORD "RELAPSE" NOT USED:

It is useful for me to remember that despite the disease concept being actively
under discussion during the formative times of A.A., the term "relapse" was not
used. When the first two chairmen of the Alcohol Foundation were unseated
because of inebriation, they were said to have "returned to drinking." This is
the term I prefer because it expresses the idea that our steady state is to be
unsteady.

ACETALDEHYDE AND THE ADDICTIVE PAIN KILLER THIQ:

It is well established from modern studies that abnormal physiological responses
in alcoholics create elevated levels of acetaldehyde in their blood stream and
the production of the addictive pain killer THIQ (tetrahydroisoquinoline) in
their brain cells. Thus the illness is expressed at a cellular level, so no
amount of will power can affect that.

DIABETES AND HYPOTHYROIDISM AS PARALLELS:

To that extent, it is much like other cellular level maladies, like diabetes
mellitus and hypothyroidism.

The good news of course is that a spiritual awakening can and does allow the
owner of the alcoholic's abnormal physiology to live comfortably in their skin
without drinking alcohol.

God is near,
Marion

0 -1 0 0
7258 George
Text of the red-headed nurse in the alcoholic ward Text of the red-headed nurse in the alcoholic ward 3/19/2011 2:38:00 PM

Here is her story:

http://silkworth.net/magazine_newspaper/saturday_evening_post_oct_18_1952.html

0 -1 0 0
7259 Jeff Bruce
Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/23/2011 4:33:00 PM

You did something I have been thinking about for quite a while. Good for you!

"Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't
want the program. But great numbers of these, about two out of three, began to
return as time passed."

What page is that on?

Thanks.

0 -1 0 0
7260 Charles Knapp
Re: Changes in the chapter To Wives Changes in the chapter To Wives 3/19/2011 6:04:00 PM

From Charles Knapp, gadgetsdad, and Old Bill (schaberg)

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com> (cpknapp at yahoo.com)

Hey Group,

With help from Doug B. and Shakey Mike I was able to answer the question about
the changes in the Chapter To The Wives. From our research we found the
following:

Original Manuscript:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain
state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they
would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had
no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"

1st Edition 1st printing page 127:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain
state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they
would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had
no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"

1st Edition; 2nd thru 16th printing page 127:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have
been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two
hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse
whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!"

2nd , 3rd and 4th Editions page 114:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been
working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first
published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals
of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!"

===========================================
SUMMARY:

>> The Manuscript per April 1939 had six chronic alcoholics released

>> The 1st Edition 1st Printing April 1939 had four chronic alcoholics released

>> The 1st Edition 2nd through the 16th printings 1941 -1954 had some additional
wording and 17 alcoholics released (note they are no longer "chronic")

>> Starting with the Second Edition in 1955 we have the wording we have today.
===========================================

Thanks for the help!

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From: gadgetsdad <gadgetsdad@yahoo.com> (gadgetsdad at yahoo.com)

The second through 16th printings all use the figure 17. I happened to read this
paragraph at a meeting a few years ago and realized the First edition could not
have used thousands. So I went through all 16 printings.

Brad I. Area 25 Northern Minnesota Archivist

- - - -

From: schaberg@aol.com (schaberg at aol.com)

The second through the seventh printings all read exactly like the eighth
printing that you have quoted:

1st Edition: 2nd thru 7th printing, page 127:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have
been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two
hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse
whatever -- none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes
deep!"

Old Bill

________________________________

Original message from: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011
Subject: Changes in the chapter To Wives

Hello Group,

I was asked a question I could not fully answer and was hoping someone could
help me finish my answer. It seems there were some changes in the wording in
part of a paragraph in Chapter 8 "To The Wives." I am looking for anyone who
might have access to all 16 printings the 1st edition Big Book. In particular I
am looking for the wording in printings 2 thru 7. I have the different wording
from the manuscript, 1st printing and printings 8 thru 16. So all I need is the
changes in printings 2 thru 7.


Here is what I have so far:

Original Manuscript:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain
state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they
would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had
no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"

1st Edition 1st printing page 127:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain
state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they
would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had
no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"

1st Edition; 8th thru 13th printing page 127:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have
been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two
hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse
whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!"

2nd, 3rd and 4th Editions page 114:
"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been
working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first
published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals
of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!"

Any help will be appreciated
Charles from Wisconsin

0 -1 0 0
7261 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/23/2011 2:20:00 PM

From Laurie A., John M., Bryan Reid, David B., Beverly F., and Gerard M.

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Taking money from an outside municipal body would seem to contradict Tradition
Seven. I've belonged to AA groups who met in premises owned by landlords who
would not accept rent from voluntary clubs etc as part of their service to the
community. The AA groups checked the going rate for rooms in the area and made
equivalent donations to those organisations from time to time (Christmas funds,
gifts of TVs, furniture etc etc).

- - - -

From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com> (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)

Hi Bent,
An interesting set of questions and I am sure many of us will have
experience to share.

If there is a tradition in Denmark that AA groups do not pay rent, it would be
the first time I have ever heard of the concept. In the 39 years that I have
been attending AA here in the USA, it has always been stressed that we are not a
charity. We are a voluntary organization, yes... but we pay our own way and
accept no outside money. AA will not accept money or gifts from outside the
fellowship, whether from a church, the government, a charity, a benevolent
giver, or any other place. We pay our own way... we are self supporting and
this is a point of great pride. We are not seeking a handout from anyone. We
are responsible for ourselves.

Our GSO in New York routinely refuses and sends back money, sometimes even large
amounts, that comes to AA from a variety of sources outside our fellowship, and
limits how much any one person can give. Arguments and disputes over money and
property can be terribly divisive and AA has chosen a wise path, that of being
broke, beyond our prudent operating reserves.

It gets difficult at times because virtually every group must pay rent. The
price of rent has gone up and we sometimes are hard pressed to keep meetings
open, especially with newer groups. Churches who rent space to us are a
wonderful asset and we cherish the fact that we can rent from them. Other
landlords are good to us too, but we make sure we pay them.

Starting a clubhouse for meeting space is not a good approach. Once open, a
clubhouse must have money to cover expenses, and the AA groups meeting there
will need to pay rent in order for the club to survive. Accepting government
funds to make it possible for AA groups to meet there and not pay rent sounds
like a violation of the spirit of our 12 traditions. It would amount to an
indirect subsidy from the government to AA.

All of this should be a matter for a group conscience to decide. Our AA
Guidelines on clubhouses is pretty helpful, and it stresses that any club must
be separately incorporated and managed by those who have an interest in it. AA
cannot be associated with the club. The AA groups meeting there are merely
tenants, and the clubhouse is the landlord. The tenants are free at any time to
move, go away, as they see fit. Here is the AA guideline about clubhouses:
http://aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/mg-03_clubs.pdf

A typical AA group here in USA will pass the basket during the meeting,
collecting usually a dollar, sometimes two, from the average person. The group
secretary or treasurer keeps track of the money and accounts to the group as to
how it was used. My home group pays rent to the church, buys AA literature,
buys coffee and refreshments, medallions, and other supplies. The excess is
accumulated until we have a "prudent reserve" which in my group is the amount
needed for three months' operating expenses. The excess funds above that, we
give away. We send our excess money to our District, our Area and our GSO
organizations as contributions, usually twice each year. There is a good
pamphlet on the AA web site
http://aa.org/pdf/products/f-3_selfsupport.pdf
about our being self supporting.

I hope this will be useful to you Bent. All that I have written is my own
personal experience, and I do not speak on behalf of AA. I am willing to stand
corrected if anyone finds error in what I have said. I wanted to relate to you
my own personal experience on these interesting questions.

God bless,
John

John M
Burlington, Vermont US
D.O.S. Dec 7, 1971

- - - -

From: Bryan Reid <humblephoenix@gmail.com>
(humblephoenix at gmail.com)

Hi all

I'm in Southeastern Arizona (USA) up in the high desert.

In response to your questions, Bent:

1. Here (and every Group I attended in Pennsylvania and Connecticut before
moving out here) every A.A. Group I know of pays rent. The reasoning behind this
is that the 7th Tradition states: "Every A.A. group ought to be fully
self-supporting, declining outside contributions," and that this includes
declining free rent of a meeting place. I'm sure there are other "voluntary" or
non-profit organisations that do not pay rent but they are not A.A.

2. Yes, my home Group and every other Group in our District pays rent for their
meeting place or room. [I know this because I am the District Secretary.]

3. My home Group (Highway 92 Group in Sierra Vista, Arizona) rents space from a
non-profit organisation called the Serenity Club, which was specifically
organised and built for the purpose of providing a meeting place for A.A.
Groups. We currently have three Groups in total meeting there and all pay rent.
The Groups buy their own literature, anniversary medallions and other A.A.
supplies themselves. The Club provides the meeting place and coffee.

I haven't seen the letter you got from GSO, but out here all Groups are supposed
to be totally self-supporting through the voluntary contributions of its members
and not accept outside contributions of any kind. When we have non-alcoholics
attend our open meetings we do not allow them to contribute when the basket is
passed.

Best regards from Arizona!

Bryan

- - - -

From: David Brown <copperas44@yahoo.com>
(copperas44 at yahoo.com)

Tradition says we have to be self supporting and that we should not accept
donations from any external source. Read the history of AA and understand that
Rockefeller realized that money would be detrimental to the future of our
organization. When in doubt check out the traditions ans follow them.

David

- - - -

From: bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com)

My name is Beverly Foulke and I am AA member of the home group ""Get A
Life" and we pay $25 a meeting which is collected from our "pass the basket" at
the middle of our meeting. I don't know if that helps or not.

Beverly

- - - -

From: Gerard T McMahon <skyfive@bellsouth.net> (skyfive at bellsouth.net)

Our group pays rent each month and since most of our groups in USA use churches
that seems to be the common practice.

Gerard McMahon

_______________________________________

Original message from: bent_christensen5@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011
Subject: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent?

Dear Friends

We have an interesting situation here Denmark. In shot some AA groups have
applied for and recieved money at the municipality in order to pay rent by
literature and so on.

This was in the local newspaper and thus our GSO heard about it and went to the
groups in order to guide them.

GSO recommended that the groups should make an association/club which could
apply for contributions and then the groups could continue as always.

Some of us think this is simply a workaround or traditions and told GSO so. GSO
replies that there is a speciel Danish tradition not to pay rent. Thus we can
not use the guidelines regarding AA Clubs. I am not sure if the statement
regarding rent means in AA or in generel.

Now my questions to you good people are:
1. Is it common practice that voluntary organizations do not pay rent where you
live?
2. Do your AA group pay rent?
3. Do you have any experience to share regarding this matter?

Bent Christensen
Valmuevej 17
6000 Kolding
Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43
www.synlighjemmeside.dk

0 -1 0 0
7262 Stockholm Fellowship
EURYPAA Announcements EURYPAA Announcements 3/21/2011 11:10:00 AM

Hundreds of people from countries all across Europe AND Australia, Asia, Africa,
the United States and Canada will come together in DUBLIN, Ireland for the 2nd
Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. ("EURYPAA") Conference!

The EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN planning committee has been working hard since the close
of the first EURYPAA in Stockholm last summer. It is a project of service and
fellowship and the committee could not do it without you being so supportive.
Please continue helping outreach worldwide. Download the new EURYPAA 2011
DUBLIN flyer at their website: http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ and pass it on at
your meetings and to your email or online friends.

Feel the Luck 'o the Irish
WIN A TRIP TO EURYPAA!!!
Pre-registration is available online! Register TODAY for your chance to win a
trip to EURYPAA! Everyone who is pre-registered by 31 March 2011 will be
entered to win a trip to EURYPAA! Prize includes round-trip air travel
(purchased with miles) and shared accommodations. The winner will be drawn on
or after 1 April and notified by email. See details below.

CITYWEST HOTEL: HOME OF EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN
Citywest Hotel is the host hotel for everything at EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN.

Visit: http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ and click "Accommodation" to be connected to
online reservations at the special EURYPAA discounted room rate.

SHARE YOUR RECOVERY
Programming for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN is underway. If you would like to be
considered for speaking on a topic panel or workshop please email:

<info@eurypaa2011.com> (info at eurypaa2011.com)

Please understand that EURYPAA does not pay any travel for any speakers or
participants. We do very much appreciate you carrying the message to the
conference in Dublin.

CALLING ALL PERFORMERS
If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for the
line-up in this year's EURYPAA live concert, please email:

<info@eurypaa2011.com> (info at eurypaa2011.com)

and give us a link to your music or send a song in the mail. It's all in
service, fun and fellowship for the EURYPAA conference so there will be no
compensation. However, a table will be provided to get information out about
the acts performing.

PROGRAM & SCHEDULE
Full program and schedule details will be posted online shortly before the
conference and available to attendees upon arrival. (See below for
Al-Anon/Alateen announcements.)

Main Speaker Meetings
FRIDAY: Open Meeting (with Al-Anon participation) and Around-the-World Roll
Call
SATURDAY: Main Meeting (with Al-Anon participation) and Selection of the Host
City for EURYPAA 2012!
SUNDAY: Closing Meeting and Sobriety Countdown

Topic Meetings & Panel Presentations/Workshops
Topic Meetings begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by open
sharing. While Topic Meetings are open for anyone to attend, participation is
limited to those who have a desire to stop drinking. Panel Presentations begin
with speakers sharing on the topic followed by questions & answers or comments.
Workshops begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by an open
conversation, moderated by the Workshop Leader. Participation during panel
presentations and/or workshops is open to all.

A list of topics for meetings and workshops is being put together by the EURYPAA
2011 DUBLIN programming team. If you would like to suggest a topic email:
info@eurypaa2011.com

Event Activities
Live Music ~ Stand-up ~ Disco ~ Yoga ~ Golf Tournament ~ Football Match ~ Horse
Riding ~ Water Sports ~ Ireland Tours ~ and more!

International Meetings
All meetings during EURYPAA are in English but we are proud to have made space
available for meetings held in other languages as well: Svenska (Swedish),
Francais (French), Polskie (Polish), Espanol (Spanish), Norske (Norwegian),
Русский (Russian), Suomi (Finnish), Íslenska (Icelandic), Danske
(Danish), Deutsch (German), Lietuvos (Lithuanian) and more. If your group would
like to host a meeting at EURYPAA in your native language email:

<info@eurypaa2011.com> (info at eurypaa2011.com)

Al-Anon & Alateen Participation
In addition to participation at each of the main speaker meetings,
Al-Anon/Alateen will have several meetings during EURYPAA. We will also have a
"Double-Winners" meeting for those in AA who also attend Al-Anon and those in
Al-Anon who have come to believe they also need to attend AA. For more
information on the Al-Anon/Alateen program or to be of service to
Al-Anon/Alateen during EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN email: info@eurypaa2011.com

WIN A TRIP TO EURYPAA DETAILS
Every individual who is pre-registered for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN by midnight 31
March 2011 will be entered in a drawing to win a trip to EURYPAA. The drawing
will be held by the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN planning committee on or after 1 April
2011. Winner will be notified by email. The prize consists of air travel to
Dublin and shared accommodation at EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN as follows: (Air Travel)
Round-trip economy class airfare purchased on behalf of the winner using up to
60,000 American Airlines miles. All limitations by American Airlines, including
black-out dates, applies. In the event that suitable dates for the winner are
not available, the winner will have the option to use the miles at another time,
provided the cost of travel does not exceed 60,000 miles, to travel for EURYPAA
2012. (Accommodation) Winner understands they will be entitled to shared
accommodation from 12-14 August 2011 at Citywest Hotel, host hotel for EURYPAA
2011 DUBLIN. No alternative accommodation will be offered should the winner not
be able to use the shared accommodation on the specific dates and winner will
forfeit this portion of the prize. Shared accommodation means the winner will
share the room with another person or persons. There is no cash value to this
prize. All aspects of this prize have been donated by members of AA in support
of the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN conference. We thank them dearly and wish everyone
the Luck 'o the Irish!

The 2nd annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Conference ("EURYPAA") will be
hosted by Dublin, Ireland, 12-14 August 2011. Visit:
http://www.EURYPAA2011.com/ for details and SPREAD THE WORD!

For more information about EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN email: info@eurypaa2011.com

We look forward to sharing EURYPAA with you! As the big book says, "this is an
experience you must not miss!"

Until then we wish you a very Happy & Sober St. Patrick's Day!

In fellowship,
Jay G.
Niamh E.
EURYPAA Advisory Chair
EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN Chair

0 -1 0 0
7263 Arthur S
Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year 3/24/2011 9:26:00 AM

MARCH 21, NOT MARCH 3

Although it can't be distributed, the attached is a scan of the June 1950
Grapevine article. It clearly states "March 21, 1881 - June 1, 1949."

Since the article was written a year after Anne's passing, and Dr Bob was still
living, I'd prefer to give credence to it as opposed to the other cited sources.

I'd appreciate seeing a copy of the June 1950 article (not a transcription) that
shows "March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949" as stated below.

Cheers
Arthur

________________________________________

From: OedipusTax
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011
Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year

Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine
article does not say March 21 but March 3:

Anne Ripley Smith
March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949
The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A.
Wife of Dr. Bob
"The Mother of A.A."

A Tribute to Anne Smith
A.A. Grapevine, June 1950

SOMEHOW we believe Dr. Bob's beloved Anne would prefer this simple tribute
beyond all others. It was written by one who knew her well. It came from the
bottom of a grateful heart which sensed that extravagant language and trumpeting
phrases would serve only to obscure a life that had deep meaning ....

0 -1 0 0
7264 calistogababe
Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook 3/23/2011 11:57:00 PM

There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing
the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3
principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3
p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook.

Does anyone know the name of that book or the author?

Many thanks,
Suzanne T.

0 -1 0 0
7265 Bryan Reid
Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Is alcoholism a disease? 3/23/2011 5:33:00 PM

From Bryan Reid, bsdds, Laurie Andrews, and stalban

- - - -

From: Bryan Reid <humblephoenix@gmail.com>
(humblephoenix at gmail.com)

The head doctor at the treatment center I went to gave a lecture on this as part
of the program. He said it was definitely a physiological (or biochemical)
change. I know that to be true in my case.

- - - -

From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net)

As one who contributed and spoke at the initial conference on alcoholism for the
American Dental Assn in Chicago in 1985, this is a conundrum. I was associated
with a med school as an " adjunctive member" of the dept of psychiatry back then
and Texas Tech was very active in describing this phenomenon of alcoholism as a
disease. They (Tech med school) were awarded 4 or 5 career teachers awards in
the study of alcoholism.

I remember that Stanley Gitlow, MD at one of the IDAA meetings back in the 70's
in NJ, talked about "give the doc the dignity of a disease" and it would go a
long way in sobering him/her up.

And there were statistics back then that Docs who believed it was a disease did
far better in recovery over a five year span. There is the works of Dr. Bissell,
Dr. Robert Morse at Mayo's and many in the field who absolutely presented
Alcholism as a disease.

This was 30 years ago and I don't remember specifics on who where or what the
research was ......... but, there were a good number of physicians who simply
did not and do not think this is a disease, as they learned.

It became a semantic issue. To me, its a mute point....don't take the first
drink.

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

I can be sick or ill without necessarily having a disease. We talk of people
being mentally ill, rather than mentally diseased. (Is schizophrenia a disease?)
Some behavioral psychologists argue that alcoholism is not a medical condition
at all; they say problem drinking is learned behavior and as such can be
unlearned.

So for a layman like Bill to designate alcoholism as a disease would
have immediately mired AA in controversy; maybe that's why - in anticipation of
Tradition Ten - he studiously avoided claiming such expertise.

Kurtz explores disease as metaphor and observes, "The heart of the alcoholic
malady, AA teaches, is spiritual disease ... The spiritual is the key to the AA
program ..." (Not God: a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, p200ff).

If a physician told me I had diabetes and my only hope was a spiritual awakening
I would demand a second opinion.

Has the General Service Conference ever discussed whether or not alcoholism is a
disease?

- - - -

From: <stalban2001@yahoo.com> (stalban2001 at yahoo.com)

Great insights. I'm a right-side of the brain kind-of-guy, so the scientific
evidence and research has never impacted how I regard addiction.

When I first came in it sure felt like a "sickness," but over time I came to
understand it as a "spiritual malaise."

The "allergy" concept was always useful as a splendid metaphor that works
wonders with newcomers.

0 -1 0 0
7266 Charlie Parker
RE: Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/23/2011 5:50:00 PM

Jeff Bruce asked in Message 7259, what page in the Big Book is the following
quote from?

"Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they
didn't want the program. But great numbers of these -- about two out of three --
began to return as time passed."

____________________________________________

That quotation is from the Foreword to the Second Edition, near the end.

In the present (4th edit.) Big Book, it's on page xx.

0 -1 0 0
7267 Michael Dunn
2% AA success rate? what article? what evidence cited? 2% AA success rate? what article? what evidence cited? 3/24/2011 8:04:00 PM

It said in Message 7253 from "kimrowe24" <roweke@msn.com>
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7253

<<I recently read an article bashing AA's printed recovery rate, stating that AA
was lucky to achieve 2% on a good day, and even less during the holiday
season.>>

Can you give us a link to the article you mentioned?

MY OWN OBSERVATIONS:

The figures from GSO's surveys are accurate as designed, and as designed they
cannot possibly agree with Bill's original measure of AA success.

When I look at my own group, I feel as you do - measured as Bill did, we have a
similar success rate as back then. One problem with the original has always been
the statement "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried"- who judges who
"really tried", this is a pretty subjective measure.

In my own group of 45 members, the average continuous sobriety is 19 years.So AA
seems to be working fine in my neck of the woods.

Michael D.
Shediac NB, Canada

0 -1 0 0
7268 Sober186@aol.com
Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/23/2011 4:39:00 PM

Sorry, but I just do not see how one can quantify the recovery rate of AA in any
meaningful way, without general agreement on the definition of the term
"alcoholic." What is an alcoholic? The book, alcoholics Anonymous gives us
little help telling us we can judge ourselves but not others.

In the Chapter The Doctors Opinion a definition is made. The doctor writes that:

I personally know of scores of cases who were of the type with whom other
methods had failed completely. They took a drink and the phenomena of craving at
once became paramount to all other interests.

In the chapter There is a solution there are different definitions:

The tragic truth is that if the man be a true alcoholic ... He has lost
control.

At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic he passes into a state
where the most powerful desire to stop drinking will
not prevent him from getting drunk.

In the Chapter More About Alcoholism, Bill seems to believe there were
different kinds of alcoholics and that they were different from heavy drinkers.

Alcoholics are men and women who have lost control over our
drinking.

... Alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness.

... alcoholics of our kind ...

... real alcoholics...

So, is it possible that people were who were coming to the doors of AA in the
early years could have been different than the kinds coming to the doors of AA
today? I don't know but until we do, we at least need to allow for the
possibility.

similarly, how does one define accepting the program. In the early days,
different groups had very different criteria for membership. In at least some,
the newcomer needed to work all the steps before he was considered a full
fledged member.

And how does one define success. For instance, I have just over 25 years
sobriety in AA. Previously, without attending any AA meetings or reading any AA
material, i went nine years without drinking. What criteria do we use to define
success, and when comparing today and yesterday, what criteria did old timers
use to define success. Some, including Bill W. described himself as
"recovered." Virtually no one does today.

Are any of us successful, or even as successful as we want to be?
Hopefully,with the help of a power greater than myself, I will be more
successful tomorrow than I am today. We'll see about that.

Love and serve,

Jim L in Central Ohio

0 -1 0 0
7269 J. Lobdell
RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/24/2011 8:28:00 AM

I recall (I hope correctly) that the WHO study a few years ago revealed that AA
in at least one country (perhaps it was Sweden -- my copy of the report is not
immediately accessible) was compelled to accept money from the country's
government, which insists on supporting all charitable groups (or perhaps all
non-denominational charitable groups).

There are certainly international variations in AA (anonymity in Mexico, for
example, apparently means something quite different from what it means here),
and AA does what it can in accordance with local laws and local customs.

But this is our side of the street and that is the other side -- right? As I
understand the history and structure of AA, our GSO and our AAWS and Grapevine
boards and our Trustees generally have no particular authority -- which includes
authority to interpret the traditions -- outside of what they have in the United
States and Canada.

0 -1 0 0
7270 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/24/2011 9:17:00 AM

In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to pass an Act
allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen a copy of
the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York. Copies are
available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA GB website for
contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share" magazine (the GB equivalent of
"Grapevine") carried this report:

" 'Share' carried the following letter from Jim H., chairman of the General
Service Board, in the March 1986 issue: Dear Members, Due to the recent
publicity in the national Press regarding legacies, the General Service Board
feel it necessary to issue the following statement: 'It has always been the
policy of the Board to decline legacies, donations etc from outside sources,
thus complying with the Seventh Tradition. Several months ago, a legacy was
declined in the normal way but the solicitor (lawyer) concerned challenged our
right, as a charity, to refuse monies and gave notice to pursue the matter
through the courts. Losing our charitable status could lead to the forfeiture of
all the Fellowship's assets. The Board had, therefore, no alternative but to
place the matter in the hands of our solicitor and eventually to seek the
opinion of counsel. Discussions took place over a lengthy period of time with
representatives of the Treasury Solicitor's Department and the Charities
Commission and it was finally clearly established that we would be in breach of
charitable law if we refused outside contributions. The only solution available
to us was to submit a Private Bill to Parliament which, is successful, would
change the law and allow the Fellowship to decline all, or part of, any
legacies, gifts etc. In effect this will enable the Fellowship to adhere
strictly to the Seventh Tradition and at the same time conform to the law of the
land. A more detailed report will be submitted to the 21st annual General
Service Conference at the University of Manchester, 11-13 April 1986.

"This is an extract from the Parliamentary Bill to which Jim H. refers and which
was eventually passed into law: 'Alcoholics Anonymous is an inchoate fellowship
whose members seek to overcome their addiction to alcohol by the practice and
adherence to a code of principles which have evolved empirically since the
fellowship was founded. Alcoholics Anonymous from time to time receives legacies
or gifts of such magnitude as would, if accepted in whole, endanger the
principle of self help upon which Alcoholics Anonymous operates: Difficulties in
law have been found in disclaiming such legacies or gifts whilst securing the
charitable purposes of the legacy or gift and been made more acute by the rule
of law prohibiting disclaimer in part: It is expedient that the Company (i.e.
AA) should be empowered to deal with legacies or gifts in such a way as to both
uphold the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous and the charitable intent of the
benefactor: May it therefore please Your Majesty that it may be enacted by the
Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice of the Lords Spiritual
and Temporal and Commons, in this present Parliament, and by authority of the
same, as follows ... The Company may if it thinks fit disclaim all or part of
the property comprised in any relevant disposition...' (Alcoholics Anonymous
[Dispositions] Act, 1986).

"Share" then quoted the long form of the Seventh Tradition: "The AA groups
themselves ought to be fully self supported by voluntary contributions of their
own members. We think that each group should soon achieve this ideal; that any
public solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly
dangerous, whether by groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that
acceptance of large gifts from any source or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then, too, we view with much concern those AA
treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to accumulate funds for no
stated AA purpose. Experience has often warned us that nothing can so surely
destroy our spiritual heritage as futile disputes over property, money and
authority."

0 -1 0 0
7271 KATHERINE DI GIULIO
Link to article about Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy Link to article about Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy 3/24/2011 2:42:00 PM

If no one has sent this to you yet, here is a link to an article by Teddy.

http://serenityfound.org/history/nurse.html


Best,
Katherine DiGiulio, Ph.D.
Larkspur Productions, Inc.
45 Franklin Ave.
Plainville, Connecticut 06062-1601
860.747.3992

0 -1 0 0
7272 jamesjharp@suddenlink.net>
The modern medical definition of alcoholism as a disease The modern medical definition of alcoholism as a disease 3/25/2011 4:32:00 PM

"... phenomenon of craving ..." Medical Definition - Disease - An impairment of
health or a condition of abnormal functioning.

These three (3) words, i.e., " ... phenomenon of craving" are contained five (5)
times in the section called The Doctor's Opinion, William D. Silkworth, M.D.,
Alcoholics Anonymous, emphasizing clear unequivocal physiological component to
alcoholism.

This comprehensive definition of Alcoholism was published by the Journal of the
American Medical Association in 1992. This definition was prepared by the Joint
Committee to Study the Definition and Criteria for the Diagnosis of Alcoholism
of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American
Society of Addiction Medicine.

Approved by the Boards of Directors of the National Council on Alcoholism and
Drug Dependence, Inc. (February 3, 1990) and the American Society of Addiction
Medicine (February 25, 1990).

Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical
Association

"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and
environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The
disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or
periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol,
use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most
notably denial."

Primary refers to the nature of alcoholism as a disease entity in addition to
and separate from other pathophysiologic states which may be associated with it.

Primary states that alcoholism, as an addiction, is not a symptom of an
underlying disease state.

Disease means an involuntary disability. It represents the sum of the abnormal
phenomena displayed by a group of individuals. These phenomena are associated
with a specified common set of characteristics by which these individuals differ
from the norm, and which places them at a disadvantage.

Often progressive and fatal means that the disease persists over time and that
physical, emotional, and social changes are often cumulative and may progress as
drinking continues. Alcoholism causes premature death through overdose, organic
complications involving the brain, liver, heart and many other organs, and by
contributing to suicide, homicide, motor vehicle crashes, and other traumatic
events.

Impaired control means the inability to limit alcohol use or to consistently
limit on any drinking occasion the duration of the episode, the quantity
consumed, and/or the behavioral consequences of drinking.

Preoccupation in association with alcohol use indicates excessive, focused
attention given to the drug alcohol, its effects, and/or its use. The relative
value thus assigned to alcohol by the individual often leads to a diversion of
energies away from important life concerns.

Adverse consequences are alcohol-related problems or impairments in such areas
as: physical health (e.g., alcohol withdrawal syndromes, liver disease,
gastritis, anemia, neurological disorders); psychological functioning (e.g.,
impairments in cognition, changes in mood and behavior); interpersonal
functioning (e.g., marital problems and child abuse, impaired social
relationships); occupational functioning (e.g., scholastic or job problems); and
legal, financial, or spiritual problems.

Denial is used here not only in the psychoanalytic sense of a single
psychological defense mechanism disavowing the significance of events, but more
broadly to include a range of psychological maneuvers designed to reduce
awareness of the fact that alcohol use is the cause of an individual's problems
rather than a solution to those problems. Denial becomes an integral part of the
disease and a major obstacle to recovery.

--End of definition --

Gratefully Yours,

Jim H.

0 -1 0 0
7273 bent_christensen5
Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent 3/24/2011 6:22:00 PM

Thank you so much all.

I'll pass your experience to fellow AA members and hopefully we will be able to
convince our General Service Board that they have chosen a dangerous path.

All the Best
Bent

0 -1 0 0
7274 Murray Eaton
Canada: AA groups and clubs paying rent Canada: AA groups and clubs paying rent 3/23/2011 11:45:00 PM

From: Murray Eaton <murmeister2001@hotmail.com>

Hello;

Several years ago one of our groups here in Canada asked for a special rate
because AA was a non-profit organization of a different type. The Community Hall
went to the papers with the request who printed an article about AA wanting
special treatment. The publicity was embarrassing and unwelcome and the request
was a contravention of the 7th Tradition.

30 years ago I was told that we could not even accept such things as
well-meaning Church Ladies making and donating sandwiches for our meetings or
free coffee from a member who owned a restaurant on a regular basis.

The group, as a whole, had to be self-supporting. The 7th Tradition is very
clear about us being self-supporting and that means not accepting handouts even
when they are there for the taking. Bill Wilson's explanation in the Twelve and
Twelve is very detailed and one would hope it would be the final word.

In Love and Service

Murray E.
Brampton, On.

- - - -

From: gary lockhart <garylock7008@yahoo.ca>

Gary up here in Canada, eh!

Close to Niagara Falls. To my knowledge - all groups, meetings, districts, in
our Area 86 - pay their own rent and in some cases - insurance, as some
facilities are asking that of us. Some groups use the 7th Tradition monies for
medallions and refreshments - while others are opposed to this practice as
neither seems to be a part of traditional AA. Having served at various levels of
our Service structure for the past 20+ years, I have yet to hear of a rent free
facility. Gary

- - - -

From: Michael Dunn <mdshediac@yahoo.ca>

In my local area, AA groups meet in church halls and similar buildings, usually
without rent required. My own group meets in two different buildings of this
nature and we donate the equivalent of reasonable rent to the building owners.

At one time we had a club in the closest city, the building was owned by a few
AA members as a separate corporation in the name of the owners, the AA name was
not used at all. The AA group was of course a separate entity and paid rent to
the corporation. With the growth in the number of groups in the area, this club
eventually closed its doors. Most meetings today are in churches, municipal
facilities etc., though a few groups rent space in commercial buildings.

Michael D.
Shediac NB, Canada

0 -1 0 0
7275 edgarc@aol.com
Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/24/2011 4:41:00 AM

From Edgar C., Sober 186, Les Cole, and Jim Robbins

- - - -

From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com)

The three groups in which I am active here in Sarasota, Florida, all pay rent
for use of church facilities, as have all the groups I have been associated
with in the past, both here and in the Chicago, Illinois area. One exception was
a local hospital which offered us a free room for our weekly Traditions
meeting. When the group conscience refused to challenge the no-rent status, a
few of us including me left the group. There was a certain delicious irony in a
Traditions meeting group consciously violating a basic Tradition through a
group conscience vote. But we must remember that as Bill W said, every group
has the right to be wrong.

Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida

- - - -

From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

Tradition three reads ... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for
sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have
no other affiliation. The group cited does not seem to have any other
affiliation, so my call itself an A.A. group.

Also, Tradition three also makes each group autonomous. The long form stays,
"With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no
other authority than its own conscience." So, while I may have my own opinion
on the matter, my opinion does not count unless I am a member of that home
group. If so, I get a vote. My side will not always prevail.

Tradition seven reads that A.A. groups 'ought to be' fully self supporting.
IMHO, That means the tradition can be seen as a simply reminder to make sure
the group and the body offering the space be separate.

While I may personally feel that it is not be the best thing for a group to
accept free rent there is nothing in the traditions to prevent it.

As Bill wrote, each group should be free to make its own mistakes.

Jim L. in Central Ohio

- - - -

From: LES COLE <elsietwo@msn.com> (elsietwo at msn.com)

Hi All:

Here is another thought about RENT for Fellowship Meeting space ...

I think there is too much emphasis these days on "paying our own way" or
"accepting no charity". Yes ... Fellowship meetings are for our own benefits,
but the very existence of an AA group(s) in the community is in fact, a
community service. Meetings are advertised (in various ways) so that new,
unserved alcoholics, might become interested in the AA 12-steps process...and
certainly, as a beginning, for fellowship with others who are recovering
sobriety. Let's avoid myopia ast being a "poor" organization. We will not
destroy the whole AA System if we use some good-old Vermont Common-Sense which
characterized Bill's whole life !!!!

I believe for example; that a church which offers a room for AA meetings, sees
AA as a "charitable" organization and thereby is more than willing to offer its
space for a nominal price or ... no-price-at-all! There is no need for us to
get hung up on constantly trying to figure out what Bill Wilson advocated back
in the 30s in everything we decide to do/think today. The fundamental message
which Bill promoted was "FLEXIBILITY." He invented a system which works for
many, many of us. It has been "all inclusive" from the beginning...and that
means that the only question to be asked is: "Do you have a drinking problem
which you would like to change?"

With respect to current AAHL posts about "spirituality" ... let's also remember,
that Bill did a lot of thinking as he grew up in a very small Vermont town where
there was/is two formal churches ... one Catholic and one Congregational (plus a
number of "free thinkers" like Mark Whalon). Bill rebelled against dogmatic
beliefs during his youth, but he gradually began to develop the use of the word
God as he became an adult ... and he never openly adopted a specific Religion as
his own. When he married into the Burnham family, he learned everything about
the Swedenborgian religion, and those tenets affected him daily.

Les C
Colorado Springs, Colorado

- - - -

From: "Jim Robbins" <jrobbins1123@yahoo.com>
(jrobbins1123 at yahoo.com)

In one group I attend, we pay rent each month. In another, we don't pay rent,
but make a donation to a charitable cause in the landlord's name each month.

0 -1 0 0
7276 Cindy Miller
One dollar in the basket no longer works One dollar in the basket no longer works 3/24/2011 8:44:00 AM

This discussion about AA groups paying rent touches off an important discussion
about the 7th Tradition: that the "$1 in the basket" rule which came into being
in the 60's is not working today, 50 years later-- and many groups are in
financial trouble. This custom seems (in some cases) not to have changed.

Has anyone seen a poster which touched on this (I think it's an Intergroup thing
-- GSO has no opinion on this?) I saw it about 10 years ago and have not been
able to find it since....

It went something like this:

COFFEE: 1960 @ 10 cents a cup ......... 2000 @ $1.00
GAS: 1960 @ 27 cents a gallon ......... 2000 @ $2.00
CIGARETTES: 1960 @ 35 cents a pack ....... 2000 @ $3
CONTRIBUTION IN BASKET: 1960 @ $1.00 .. 2000 @ $1.00

As Bill once said "...tight as the bark on a tree..." LOL!

Staying In Service,
Cindy

0 -1 0 0
7277 dillonr9@yahoo.com
Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook 3/26/2011 9:41:00 AM

Victor Kitchen, in his book, I WAS A PAGAN (1934) cites 5 P's he was a pagan to:
power, possession, position, pleasure and Applause. Perhaps this book was in
Bill's mind. He may have read this book while a member of the Oxford Group since
its author was also a member of the Oxford Group. Peace.

- - - -

From GC the moderator:

Vic Kitchen and Bill Wilson both joined the Oxford Group in New York City at
about the same time, and were friends. Kitchen gives an excellent picture of
what the Oxford Group looked like (and how it functioned and what it taught) in
the New York City area at the time Bill Wilson was active in the group.

For the text of I Was a Pagan, see www.stepstudy.org and for a description of
what the book taught, see http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html

The Five P's passage is at the beginning of Chapter 1. I quote the opening of
that chapter here:

CHAPTER I
THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS
PAGANISM

At twenty, life looked like a high adventure -- intriguing and indecorous. At
thirty, it looked like a high endeavor -- socially and economically important.
By forty, however, I grew highly dubious. Life seemed to have lost flavor on
both counts. It was then that I met the Oxford Group. At this time, I think, I
would have described myself as "white, married and a Christian." Actually I was
somewhat tarnished and discolored, married in name only, and very much of a
pagan. A pagan is a man who spends his time chasing false gods. And I had spent
forty years of my time in chasing "Pleasure," "Possessions," "Power," "Position"
and "Applause." I now call these pagan goals my unfortunate five "P’s."

- - - -

Original Message from: "calistogababe"
<suzthurston@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011
Subject: Name of book/author on 3 p's: prestige, power and pocketbook

There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing
the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3
principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3
p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook.

Does anyone know the name of that book or the author?

Many thanks,
Suzanne T.

0 -1 0 0
7278 Kimball ROWE
Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/25/2011 5:32:00 PM

From Kimball Rowe, Ed O (Denton, Texas), and Steven Calderbank

- - - -

From: Kimball ROWE <roweke@msn.com>
(roweke at msn.com)

The Big Book does not attempt to define what an alcoholic is. It merely
describes the alcoholic by general observations (loss of control, progressive,
like us, etc.). I think this is done so the new person can identify and not be
excluded. The book leaves the actual diagnosis up to each individual. If AA
were to define what an alcoholic is, then someone would surely die (I'm not that
bad, it doesn't apply, I've got a few good years left, etc.).

The rate (percentage) given in the book and in my original message is not of
those who recovered but of those who sobered up. It is very easy to quantify
sobriety (not drinking). I think we all know people who got sober and did not
recover (they are the ones with the white knuckles). The percentages given in
the Big Book do not discuss the "early days." The early days was trial and
error, hit or miss and many did not make it and some died. The percentages
mentioned were in the foreword of the 2nd edition (1955) after the program of
recovery had been thoroughly tested. As to how to define "accepting the
program," I'm afraid I'm going to have to defer to the Big Book itself:

The Big Book is precise, specific, detailed, exact, clear and all you need to
begin:

PRECISE: To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main
purpose of this book. (Foreword to the First Edition, xiii)

SPECIFIC: "What do I have to do?" It is the purpose of this book to answer such
questions specifically. (There is a Solution, pg 20)

DETAILED: We shall tell you what we have done. Before going into a detailed
discussion, it may be well to summarize some points as we see them. (There is a
Solution, pg 20)

EXACT: We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power
greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. (We Agnostics, pg 45)

CLEAR CUT: Further on, clear cut directions are given showing how we
recovered. (There is a Solution, pg 29)

ALL YOU NEED: Thus we grow. And so can you, though you be but one man with this
book in your hand, we believe and hope it contains all you will need to begin.
(A Vision for You, pg 162-163)

I know some still say that "our book is meant to be suggestive only" or that
"more will be revealed." The book was written in 1939. Don't you think that if a
better plan or a better idea had been devised by one of the countless thousands
of geniuses that sobered up after 1939 that they would have included it in the
first 164 pages of the book Alcoholics Anonymous? Even the brightest bulb in
our fellowship has yet to add or remove anything from the original program of
recovery.

Thousands of people share in meeting these days on how they work "their
program." And believe it or not, I'm ok with that, so long as they don't call
it the AA program of recovery. People unable to accept the AA program of
Alcoholics Anonymous generally find another way to say sober. AA has no
monopoly upon therapy for the alcoholic (see page xxi). If you don't like the
AA program, there are 48 other treatment modalities to choose from. I chose AA
for a number of reasons. The first is that only AA has "Old-Timers."

Laying aside the "percentages," only AA has a program of growth after recovery.
This is not a program where you recover, then get sent away -- on the contrary,
they ask you to come back. The people who help me do so from personal
experience and not because a textbook tells them I am eligible for a class C
intervention. In short, each person has the right to select their method of
recovery, the AA program or something else. In general terms, if you thoroughly
follow the path, completely give yourself to this simple program, are rigorously
honest, go to any lengths, take certain steps, are fearless and thorough from
the very start, let go of your old ideas absolutely, find a Higher Power, and
take the suggestions, then I'd have to say you have accepted the program.

I find no difference between the people coming through the doors today, and
those coming through the doors when I first sobered up. I think the fundamental
reason for this is that selfishness is still selfishness, self-centeredness is
still self-centeredness, ego is still ego, an obsession is still an obsession,
and that physical craving is still the same physical craving.

Oh, the times have changed but the alcoholic did not. Some will say that we are
under greater pressures today, but just try selling that bologna to the
"Greatest Generation." I remember outhouses, crank phones and life without a
TV. Those days did not stop my grandfather from drinking. Not did iPod force a
drink down my throat. The ego, the obsession and the phenomenon of craving seem
to be impervious to the environment.

Not do I believe that alcoholism is genetic. If it were genetic, then why aren't
we all in gene therapy? Have you ever seen a gene whose ego had to be smashed?
For that matter, have you ever seen a gene with an ego?

I do believe that it is a disease (so did Congress in Alcoholism Prevention,
Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970, also known as the Hughes Act. which
declared alcoholism an illness and provided funding for treatment centers --
thus the explosion of treatment centers in the 70s). I also believe that it is
an allergy provided you use the AMA's definition of an allergy: "An allergy is
an abnormal reaction to a foreign substance." Alcohol is foreign to the human
body and when I swallow it I react abnormally.

The phenomenon of craving is not normal. The folks sobering up in the 30's had
the same illness and the same allergy that I do. They wrote a book that solved
their problem. They also wrote a book that solved my problem. Thus we are the
same.

I've been doing this for a long time. In conclusion I must say that defining
the problem is not nearly as constructive as defining the solution. I find my
solution in the book.

- - - -

From: "edcasey74" <personaminor@gmail.com>
(personaminor at gmail.com)

Jim,

I think the only way to define sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous is to go back to
the Big Book. I understand that individual interpretations may vary, but I
always try to look back at the collective experience of our founders when I hear
anyone's individual experience.

The title page of the Big Book says that this is "The story of how many
thousands of men and women have recovered from alcoholism." This is a lot of
hope, but before I can recover from alcoholism, I need to see if I'm an
alcoholic. Of course this is something I need to diagnose for myself, but I need
some information about alcoholism first.

In summary, the book defines alcoholism as a hopeless state of mind and body.
The body refers to the physical reaction to alcohol (the allergy which produces
a craving). If I can drink without developing the phenomenon of craving, I'm not
an active alcoholic (though I might yet become one in the future). The mind is
the mental obsession. If I can choose to quit drinking and stay stopped on my
own will power, I'm not an alcoholic (though I may progress). I'm sure you know
all this, but it's surprising how many in AA don't.

What came along with what you said about early AAs not being allowed into
meetings until they had finished the steps (a very common practice for the first
20 years or so of AA's history) was a system of personal sponsorship, the first
step of which was qualification. If you showed up at an early AA group (most of
them), they assigned you a sponsor, and that man or woman sat down with you and
qualified you as an alcoholic. If you didn't exhibit both the physical and
mental symptoms, they made sure you understood that you were not an active
alcoholic, and though you might yet become one, you didn't need AA.

Of course, if you had both symptoms, wanted to quit drinking for good, and were
willing to go to any lengths to stop, that man or woman would take you through
the steps in a very short period of time (see "He Sold Himself Short," pg. 258
in the 4th ed.). Then that person would sponsor you into the meeting, their word
that you had worked the steps being good enough to allow you in as a recovered
alcoholic.

In regards to the statistics in the Foreword to the Second Edition, many early
groups kept membership records. They also took attendance; it was the
secretary's job to make sure all members were present, and if someone was
absent, the secretary would get someone to call or visit that person and make
sure everything was okay (or 12th-step them). If you showed up at a group for
your first time, it was also the secretary's responsibility to assign you a
sponsor. So in many of the early groups, they knew exactly how many people were
coming, and how many were sticking.

Nowadays we don't keep the same kinds of stats, so it's difficult to make the
same kind of report. In my own experience, I don't see those kind of success
rates in most groups in my area. When I visit a group that I've going to for a
while, I don't often see many people who were sober when I got there. We'll have
lots of newcomers and people with a couple of years, and a couple of guys with
over 20 years, but hardly anyone between 3 and 15 years. It's very odd. People
will come for a while, but they don't tend to stick for a very long time.

I know the Program works, but obviously something is different around here.

Ed O - Denton, Texas

- - - -

From: "Steven" <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>
(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)

The whole notion of AA's success rates seems foolish, much like trying to
quantify who in church will go to Heaven. How does one measure "those who really
tried"?

0 -1 0 0
7279 gcdavid1
An additional way to quantify the AA success rate An additional way to quantify the AA success rate 3/29/2011 9:30:00 PM

An additional way to use some fairly precise historical data already in our
possession, to at least roughly quantify the early AA success rate:

I couldn't help but think of the "numbers" printed on the inside of the Big
Book's dust jacket. It gives some good clues as to AA's "success rate" between
1939, 1955 and 1976.

It states that "in 1955 membership had reached over 150,000, and the Big Book
had reached a distribution of more than 300,000." That is right on the 50% mark,
as stated by Bill in the foreword to the second edition.

It goes on to say in "March 1976, worldwide membership of AA was estimated at
1,000,000 or more. Copies of "Alcoholics Anonymous" in circulation (1st and 2nd
editions) exceeded 1,450,000. It appears that between 1955 and 1976 the "rate"
of recovery based on the number of Big Books out there and the membership
estimation, the rate was well over 60%.

David M, on the road ....

0 -1 0 0
7280 bxdennis
The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature 3/27/2011 7:55:00 AM

I want to thank Jim H. for bringing to light the current medical definition of
alcoholism. This is also the definition used in modern AA literature employed by
AA Area committees for Cooperation with the Professional Community, etc.

See AAWS pamphlet (P-23) "AA as a Resource for the Healthcare Professional,"
where the footnote appears:

==============================================
*The definition of alcoholism as defined by the American Society of Addiction
Medicine and the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence:

"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and
environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The
disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control
over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite
adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial. Each of
these symptoms may be continuous or periodic." (1992)
==============================================

This pamphlet is used primarily by the Cooperation with the Professional
Community, Public Information and Treatment Facilities Committees in carrying
the AA message.

Dennis M.

0 -1 0 0
7281 edgarc@aol.com
The two-dollar bill in the basket strategy The two-dollar bill in the basket strategy 3/26/2011 5:37:00 AM

A few of us here in Sarasota, Florida routinely stop in a bank and buy $2 bills
then use those for the collection basket. Many people comment, and we hope some
follow the lead by going from $1 to a couple of singles.

Edgar C

TO SEE WHAT ONE LOOKS LIKE, GO TO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_two-dollar_bill

0 -1 0 0
7282 Janis R
RE: One dollar in the basket no longer works One dollar in the basket no longer works 3/25/2011 6:16:00 PM

From Janis Raley, Doug Barrie, aalogsdon, and So. Jersey Ginger

- - - -

From: "Janis R" <janis@aadallas.org>
(janis at aadallas.org)

We have free posters comparing the prices you are talking about that we
produce in house. It is for 2009 but we are going to update later this
year. If anyone wants one let me know.

Janis S. Raley
Director, Dallas Intergroup Assn.
phone 214-887-6699
email <janis@aadallas.org> (janis at aadallas.org)

- - - -

From: "Doug B." <dougb@aahistory.com>
(dougb at aahistory.com)

Cindy,

I have copies of the large and small posters, and the 2 handouts that were part
of this campaign in the year 2000.

The man who started it was a wealthy member who tried to contribute a large
amount of money to the GSO and was turned down because of the size of the check.
He then decided to launch this campaign aimed at sending these materials to all
of the central offices (at his expense) to get the groups and individuals to
contribute more to make up for the shortfalls we were thought to be
experiencing.

I tried to call the man and interview him in December 2004 but he had died a
month earlier.

Doug Barrie
E-MAIL: dougb@aahistory.com (dougb at aahistory.com)

- - - -

From: Aalogsdon <aalogsdon@aol.com>
(aalogsdon at aol.com)

I have the poster from ten years ago, which Cindy referred to, and assume that
they can be reproduced.

- - - -

From: vvpeachy@aol.com (vvpeachy at aol.com)

Hello Cindy!

I'm Ginger and used to volunteer in our Intergroup Office when this poster
arrived and we used it for a while, saying we neither endorsed nor opposed it.

My memory says it came from Las Vegas Intergroup, unsure.

My group approves this being left on our flyer table. We neither endorse nor
oppose. FYI ONLY left on the IG hand-outs tables...

Common sense and facing our problems, including $, keeps my faith strong.

God Bless,
So. Jersey Ginger

(Live, Love, Learn, Laugh! Ginger F. & Ron B.)

- - - -

Original Message from: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2011
Subject: One dollar in the basket no longer works

This discussion about AA groups paying rent touches off an important discussion
about the 7th Tradition: that the "$1 in the basket" rule which came into being
in the 60's is not working today, 50 years later-- and many groups are in
financial trouble. This custom seems (in some cases) not to have changed.

Has anyone seen a poster which touched on this (I think it's an Intergroup thing
-- GSO has no opinion on this?) I saw it about 10 years ago and have not been
able to find it since....

It went something like this:

COFFEE: 1960 @ 10 cents a cup ......... 2000 @ $1.00
GAS: 1960 @ 27 cents a gallon ......... 2000 @ $2.00
CIGARETTES: 1960 @ 35 cents a pack ....... 2000 @ $3
CONTRIBUTION IN BASKET: 1960 @ $1.00 .. 2000 @ $1.00

0 -1 0 0
7283 joe
Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain AA groups paying rent in Great Britain 3/29/2011 6:27:00 AM

With respect to message #7270 from Laurie Andrews
<jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7270

LAURIE SAID: In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to
pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen
a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York.
Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA
Great Britain website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share"
magazine (the Great Britain equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report ....

I have seen the text of this Act posted on the wall of the Great Britain GSO
Archives display in York, England. It is a powerful spiritual example of going
any lengths to adhere to our traditions. However, the solicitors (lawyers) on
both sides had a hand in it.

The law passed, in practice, could result in money donated to AA Grat Britain
not actually be returned to the family of the donor, but instead be sent to
another registered charity that does alcohol research (of a sort that AA may or
may not agree with -- research that we certainly do not endorse or oppose in any
way).

I am looking through my files to see if I can find a copy of how it is written,
but the large ornamental one that I saw was framed on the wall.

Roger W.

0 -1 0 0
7284 Mike Batty
Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/26/2011 10:37:00 AM

From Mike Batty, Sherry Hartsell, George C., Lynn Sawyer, Larry Tooley, and
David Brown

- - - -

Mike Batty <mcbat.t@rogers.com>
(mcbat.t at rogers.com)

A meeting that was started here in our town in a facility that refuses to take
rent presented us with a bit of a dilemma. These digs are superb but the mandate
of the owner was to allow community groups free use of their facility when not
needed for their own purposes and they refuse rental payments.

The accommodations are fantastic as this is a first rate separate building on
the grounds of a funeral home that is known as their family center and use for
after service gatherings. China cups, broadloom, gorgeous furniture, fireplace,
comfortable seating. You could not ask for anything better.

We solved the problem by giving them money to donate to their favorite charity
and also a monthly contribution to their paid attendant who often has the coffee
on and the fireplace going when the first of us arrives. They did take that
money and we feel we have appeased ourselves with the seventh tradition. Call it
what you will, donation, honorarium, rent, we feel we are paying our way. We
feel we solved our dilemma.

BTW we had considered naming ourselves the "Grateful We Aren't Dead" but out of
deference to the location just decided on "Early Birds" as we meet at 8 am.

Mike Batty, Waterloo, Ontario

- - - -

From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" <hartsell@etex.net>
(hartsell at etex.net)

Many institutions like churches and hospitals are forbidden by their set-up to
CHARGE rent, most groups deal with that by making a CONTRIBUTION to their
Building Maintenance Fund, find the financial officer, they'll accept it that
way, at least all have in my experience.

Sherry C. H.
Pittsburg, Texas AA Group

- - - -

From: "george" <clevelandgeorgem@gmail.com>
(clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com)

I'm the director of a non-profit facility in New Hampshire that hosts seven 12
step meetings a week. Almost all are AA. All of those groups pay us something.
The highest is $40 per month. We have a new 11th Step meeting that's started and
runs right after a regular meeting. Because it's new and word is still getting
out, we aren't charging them.

Most of these meetings are at night. It's cold in New Hampshire. Cold means ice
which means sand which means dirt all over the floor. The same floor that is
used for yoga or exercise classes the next morning. And there's heat. We don't
ask or expect the groups to spit shine the floor. But it takes one of us a bit
of time to redo the room.

"Expecting" free room use is not reasonable. I would wager that 99.7% of AA
groups pay for the coffee they use. Would the No Rent faction leave a meeting
that used 7th Tradition funds to pay for the coffee? A good argument could be
made for groups to only buy Fair Trade coffee so they feel comfortable that the
workers are being fairly paid and don't have to resort to drugs to augment their
income ... and so on down the rabbit hole.

My humble interpretation of working the Steps includes a sponsor showing me how
to make financial amends and learning to pay my bills; not looking for easier,
softer way. Our staff and our board consider it part of OUR responsibility to
the community to make meeting space available. And needless to say, I like
having a meeting I don't have to drive to ...

George

- - - -

From: Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>
(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)

Dear Bent,

Can only speak for my area. I'm in Northern California, USA, and almost all of
our groups are self-supporting, in terms of paying rent, as is recommended by
our Traditions. Maybe you've gotten some responses from elsewhere, too .........

Lynn S.
keepin' it simple
Sacramento, California, USA

- - - -

From: "Larry Tooley" <wa9guu@charter.net>
(wa9guu at charter.net)

Yes but: my old sponsor said we are to get back into the mainstream of society.
We pay our own way. We AA's need to learn that. Our church needs to see that. If
you don't get much money give half for rent. Sadly one bloke accepted free two
big fans as charity. Are we a welfare society now?

Larry T, Centralia, Illinois

- - - -

From: David Brown <copperas44@yahoo.com>
(copperas44 at yahoo.com)

The dangerous path is the wrong path as it ignores the premise of the traditions
.... fight to make sure that this does not stand.

0 -1 0 0
7285 joe
Kistler''s Donut Shop Kistler''s Donut Shop 3/26/2011 11:04:00 PM

I searched earlier posts and the internet regarding the tradition of serving
coffee and donuts in early meetings. I remember (or think I do) reading about a
group who went to a donut shop after the meeting, but because of the depression
era economy of the 1930's decided to bring donuts to the meeting for those who
could not afford the luxury of going to the donut shop. It may have been
Kistler's Donut shop in Akron, which is no longer there. If anyone can point me
to such a story I would be grateful. I am scanning AA Comes of Age, Dr. Bob and
Good Oldtimers, or Pass it On where it might be but haven't found it again yet.

Roger

- - - -

From the moderator: see http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html for one reference, to
Glenn Chesnut's article on the early Akron AA figure J. D. Holmes, citing Dr.
Bob and the Good Oldtimers page 147. This was around early 1938, and J. D. was
describing the early Akron AA get-togethers:

==============================================
"Ernie's mother used to throw a party every two weeks during this period. She'd
make the doughnuts, and though everybody was broke, we all brought something. It
was nothing unusual to see 25 or 30 people over there drinking coffee and eating
doughnuts."
==============================================

0 -1 0 0
7286 rajiv
Re: God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics 3/27/2011 5:45:00 AM

From Rajiv and Bruce K.

- - - -

From: "rajiv" <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>
(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)

The 12 Steps given in the Big Book are the steps which the authors had taken,
because they have said "These are the steps we took ..." in introducing the 12
Steps. So when they write "God as we understood Him," it can only mean God as
the authors understood Him.

And they have explained their understanding of God in the previous chapter 'We
Agnostics.' In this chapter they begin by telling us that about half of them
were either atheists or agnostics when they came to AA. So first of all they
define the term 'Power greater than ourselves' as a 'power by which we could
live', pg 45.

Websters Dictionary says that in the English writing system, 'unfamiliar words
when first introduced and defined in a text' are usually italicized.

As we are not powers there can be no such thing as a 'power greater than us' or
a 'Power greater than ourselves'. These expressions are semantically absurd and
so, not to be found in written English.
Bill was an expert in written English; as it had been his job to scrutinize
Stock-proxy and legal documents. So when he first introduced the unfamiliar
expression 'Power greater than ourselves' in the Big Book for the first time on
page 45, he italicized it and explained it as a 'power by which we could live.'

Thus having defined what the authors meant by God, Power and Power greater than
ourselves, they explained their understanding of God on page 55: that it was a
Power that could only be found deep down within ourselves. And they also tell us
that 'It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but
in some form or the other it is there.'

This I believe, is what the book means by saying God as we understood Him.

Rajiv

- - - -

From: bruceken@aol.com (bruceken at aol.com)

I am an atheist with regard to a "person" God and I'm a man with 24 years of
joyful sobriety. Yet I try not to evangelize my views in AA.

I only discuss my perception of our higher power if the topic of discussion is
"God" or "religious spirituality" and then only to emphasize to any newcomers
that is not necessary to believe in the God of our childhood in order to get
sober and have a full, productive and creative life.

The whole subject is so full of semantic hazards, that it is almost impossible
to discuss it in a meaningful way without a lengthy elaboration.

Bruce K.
San Francisco

0 -1 0 0
7287 Doug B.
Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year 3/28/2011 12:53:00 AM

The digital archives at the Grapevine web site also has March 21 for her birth
date.

Doug B.
www.aahistory.com

________________________________________

Original Message from Arthur S.
Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year
Date: 03/24/11

> MARCH 21, NOT MARCH 3
>
> Although it can't be distributed, the attached is a scan of the June 1950
Grapevine article. It clearly states "March 21, 1881 - June 1, 1949."
>
> Since the article was written a year after Anne's passing, and Dr Bob was
still living, I'd prefer to give credence to it as opposed to the other cited
sources.
>
> I'd appreciate seeing a copy of the June 1950 article (not a
transcription) that shows "March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949" as
stated below.
>
> Cheers
> Arthur
>
________________________________________
>
> From: OedipusTax
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011
> Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year
>
> Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article
does not say March 21 but March 3:
>
> Anne Ripley Smith
> March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949
> The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A.
> Wife of Dr. Bob
> "The Mother of A.A."

0 -1 0 0
7288 J. Lobdell
Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/28/2011 9:26:00 AM

After referring correctly to Tradition Three (on forming a group) Sober86 has
(doubtless unintentially) then referred to Tradition Three when Tradition Four
is the one meant (on group autonomy) -- but, more to the point, the autonomy
noted in Tradition Four is not absolute -- the form discussed in the 12&12
(short or current form) reads "Each group should be autonomous except in matters
affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole" (the long form talks about bringing
matters to the attention of the Trustees or GSO) -- and, of course, what one
group is known to do will affect what other nearby groups do.

As an example, when a group in the town where I live voted without notification
at a closed meeting to open that closed meeting to a non-member and claimed that
this was a "group-conscience" vote -- thereby going against a considerable
weight of AA literature on "group conscience" and the need for an informed group
conscience -- the non-member in question continued to accompany that
non-member's "significant other" to other closed meetings. On being challenged,
the person in question said "Well, the other group said I could come, so I'm
coming" and became highly indignant when the difference between closed and open
meetings was explained: I should mention that this was the fourth closed meeting
this person had tried to attend (though the first attempt at the group that
tried to explain the matter).

As to accepting support from outside A.A., the example of one group's (say)
allowing non-members to put money in the basket, or another's selling raffle
tickets or dance tickets for fundraising to non-members, is considered by some
AAs to be the kind of breach in the wall that is likely to bring the whole
structure down eventually (and thus obviously a matter affecting A.A. as a
whole). I have heard the reply, when a group treasurer said, "well it's only a
little bit" -- "Yes, and it was only a little slip -- but the guy lost his
sobriety." As with alcohol, I suspect, the safe course would be abstinence, so
that it's not necessary to argue over size of outside donation -- or the motive
in taking it. But however the argument on those points would come out, what
I've seen in studying the development of the Tradition, is that the matter of
who can contribute has been deemed (by quite a number of AAs over the years) a
matter affecting A.A. as a whole -- see, for example, the ruckus over
transportation and other costs and abeyance of costs at the san Diego
International in 1995.
________________________________________


AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011
Subject: Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent?

> From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)
>
> Tradition three reads ... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for
sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have
no other affiliation. The group cited does not seem to have any other
affiliation, so my call itself an A.A. group.
>
> Also, Tradition three also makes each group autonomous. The long form stays,
"With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no
other authority than its own conscience." So, while I may have my own opinion on
the matter, my opinion does not count unless I am a member of that home group.
If so, I get a vote. My side will not always prevail.
>
> Tradition seven reads that A.A. groups 'ought to be' fully self supporting.
IMHO, That means the tradition can be seen as a simply reminder to make sure the
group and the body offering the space be separate.
>
> While I may personally feel that it is not be the best thing for a group to
accept free rent there is nothing in the traditions to prevent it.
>
> As Bill wrote, each group should be free to make its own mistakes.
>
> Jim L. in Central Ohio

0 -1 0 0
7289 jaxena77
San Quentin Radio Play San Quentin Radio Play 3/29/2011 7:09:00 PM

I came across an interesting mention in one of Bill W's convention speeches from
Cleveland in July 1950. I am looking for a transcript or audio recording of a
radio dramatization of AA life in prison that Bill W. made reference to in his
"We Come of Age" speech. Here is an excerpt of his speech:

Next came that wonderful session on prisons. Our great friend, Warden Duffy told
the startling story of our original group at San Quentin. His account of A.A.`s
5-year history there had a moving prelude. We heard a recording, soon for radio
release, that thrillingly dramatized an actual incident of A.A. life within the
walls. An alcoholic prisoner reacts bitterly to his confinement and develops
amazing ingenuity in finding and drinking alcohol. Soon he becomes too
ingenious. In the prison paint shop he discovers a promising fluid which he
shares with his fellow alcoholics. It was deadly poison. Harrowing hours
followed, during which several of them died. The whole prison was tense as the
fatalities continued to mount. Nothing but quick blood transfusions could save
those still living. The San Quentin A.A. Group volunteered instantly and spent
the rest of that long night giving of themselves as they had never given before.
A.A. hadn't been any too popular, but now prison morale hit an all time high and
stayed there. Many of the survivors joined up. The first Prison Group had made
its mark; A.A. had come to San Quentin to stay.

I have been researching the history of AA in prisons, specifically San Quentin
for a number of years and this particular item would be so important to the
Western Area archives, and my own work. Where could I start looking for this
recording or script?

P.S. On a side note, I have also been looking for transcripts or recordings of
Bill W's speech in San Quentin in the 50's. I have not yet contacted the prison
itself.

Thank you! Jackie B

0 -1 0 0
7290 robtwoodson
Re: Kistler''s Donut Shop Kistler''s Donut Shop 3/31/2011 9:16:00 AM

Roger,

One difficulty in your search may be the fact that the name of Kistler's donut
shop is misspelled (as Kessler's) in an early account by Wally G. (Gilliam) that
is included in Dr.Bob and the Good Oldtimers" on P. 141 in the Chapter titled
"Early Meetings and Big Book controversies" quoted below...

"After the meeting closed with the Lord's Prayer, all the men beat it to the
kitchen for coffee, and most of the women sat around talking to each other,"
said Wally, "Usually the social part of the evening lasted an hour to an hour
and a half. But it wasn't until we started going to Kessler's Donut Shop that
it became a real social hour."

While I cannot document the following at this time, perhaps someone can; here in
Akron, one understanding is that the donut shop routine continued until the
donut shop itself was essentially outgrown by the fellowship. At the point
when the donut shop became too crowded and that seating was no longer available
for everyone after the meeting, eventually someone came up with the bright idea
of taking the donuts back to the meeting ... (which at that time would have been
King School).

Hope that this may be helpful,
Be a good guy and keep your powder dry,
Woody in Akron

0 -1 0 0
7291 Charles Knapp
Early California AA meetings: coffee and doughnuts etc. Early California AA meetings: coffee and doughnuts etc. 3/31/2011 4:51:00 PM

Sybil C on one of her tapes talked about the first meeting she attended on the
West Coast. In Los Angeles, the first half of the meeting was open to both
husbands and wives. The second half was just for the alcoholic men. It was
believed at that time women couldn't be alcoholic. At the break, the wives would
prepare refreshments, which were enjoyed at the end of the meeting. When it came
time for the women to leave, Sybil was told to go with the other women. At that
point she broke down and cried. She desperately needed help. They took a vote
and she was able to stay. She became the first sober woman west of the the
Mississippi.

In both San Bernardino and Riverside, California, the first meetings were held
in members' homes. They were open meetings and both husband and wives attended
and both stayed until the end of the meeting. After the meeting the host served
coffee and occasionally cookies or cake. Most of the wives objected to a lot of
coffee being drunk because it would keep their husbands awake all night.
According to Drew S. from San Bernardino, California, who got sober in 1942,
coffee and refreshments weren't served at any meeting, outside of homes he knew
until they started meeting in local churches that had kitchens. In the North
Hollywood area, I had heard of one group had a social hour before the meeting,
where they had coffee and donuts. This gave time for older members to get to
know some of the newer ones and others to just have some socializing before the
meeting.

Also mostly the big cities had coffee shops that were open late or even 24 hours
a day. The early meetings in Southern California didn't start until 8:30 or 9:00
at night and weren't over til 10 or 10:30. So it was very unlikely anyone went
out for coffee after a meeting unless it was in LA or other big city. I have
also been told the idea of having coffee and refreshments during meetings didn't
really catch on in SoCal until after they held several public meetings where
they had coffee and refreshments available at the beginning and throughout the
entire meeting. The sober drunks liked the idea of sipping coffee while
listening to a speaker so that is how the practice helped get started there.

Hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin

0 -1 0 0
7292 Glenn Chesnut
Anne Smith''s date of birth March 21, 1881 Anne Smith''s date of birth March 21, 1881 4/7/2011 2:51:00 PM

Baileygc23 has done some excellent detective work, for which we all owe him a
debt of thanks. Both the State of Ohio death certificate AND her obituary in the
Akron Beacon Journal say that Anne Smith was born on March 21, 1881 and died on
June 1, 1949. (She died in the morning on June 1st, and her death notice was
front page news in that evening's edition of the Akron Beacon Journal.)

=======================================
PHOTOS OF THE NEWSPAPER OBITUARY AND THE DEATH CERTIFICATE:

Go to http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html and go about two-thirds of the way down
the page, to the section entitled "More on early Akron AA," with a photo of
Sister Ignatia playing the organ in the St. Thomas Hospital chapel, and a photo
of a Renner's Beer wagon. The Anne Smith material is at the end of that section:

Anne Smith's Ohio death certificate and Akron Beacon Journal newspaper obituary,
at http://hindsfoot.org/annesmt2.html

Also Anne Smith's Journal: copy of the text,
at http://hindsfoot.org/annesmth.html
=======================================

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011
To: Ask A Librarian - ES
Subject: Anne Smith

Anne Smith, nee Ripley, was the wife of AA's Dr Robert Smith. Her date of death
was June 1, 1949.

There is some confusion over her date of birth. We have two different dates, the
third and the twenty first.

If you have the information on her date of birth from her death notice or obit,
and can list your source, I would appreciate it and would post it on a history
site on the subject.

Regards, George C. Bailey
301 972 0992
______________________________

In a message dated 4/4/2011 8:12:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
SPECCOLLECTIONS@akronlibrary.org writes:

Mr. Bailey,

I checked two sources: a transcription of Anne Smith's State of Ohio death
certificate, available online through
https://www.familysearch.org/
and her obituary, which appeared in the Akron Beacon Journal on June 1, 1949 on
p. 1 (she had died in the morning and the paper was delivered in the evening).
Both these sources state her date of birth as March 21, 1881.

If you need copies of these, let me know. Our fee would be $1.10 and I can send
them through regular mail or as digital images through email.

Thank you,
Jane Gramlich
Librarian, Special Collections
Akron-Summit County Public Library
60 South High Street, Akron, Ohio 44326
(330) 643-9030
speccollections@akronlibrary.org
(speccollections at akronlibrary.org)

______________________________

The one other place to check would be to go to the Illinois place where she was
born and see if there is a birth certificate there. I think it is Oak Park
adjacent to Chicago.

George

0 -1 0 0
7293 A from near Maldon, England,
How AA got started in the U.K. How AA got started in the U.K. 4/6/2011 6:09:00 AM

Greetings all, I found these 2002 messages following a search for 'Lincoln
Williams'.

I was prompted to make a search of his name, following a stumbling across a book
by said Dr Lincoln Williams called "TO EACH HIS MEMORIES (A PSYCHIATRIST LOOKS
BACK ON HIS TREATMENT OF ALCOHOLICS" copyright LINCOLN WILLIAMS, 1970, made and
printed privately for the author by Regency Press LONDON and NEW YORK.

The jacket cover blurb mentions his other publication, "Tomorrow Will Be Sober"
in 1960.

No doubt these are familiar to AA UK history aficionados, but just in case not,
I give this info.

I came across this book in my parents' possessions, which one or other seems to
have purchased second-hand for £1.55 sterling, judging by a pencil mark on the
inside cover. The original price from the fly-leaf (that is, when the book was
new) was 30 shillings, which would be £1.50 in the present decimal currency (the
U.K. shifted from pounds-shillings-pence to the decimal system in February
1971).

Anyway, I have just got to the section where he mentions his first contact with
A.A. in chapter XXII, page 81 after he sailed on the famous ocean liner the
Mauretania in September 1947 to investigate having met Bob, Chris and Norman in
London after replying to an advert in The Financial Times.

I am a little surprised there is only one reference to Lincoln Williams on the
site but at least there is now one other.

Are his books well known amongst the AA history students?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"Fiona" <fionadodd@...> Nancy Olson wrote:
>
> Hi, Buffs:
>
> Our wonderful friend in England, Max C. has sent me some information on AA in
the UK. I find it fascinating and hope you will too.
>
> Nancy
>
> Max writes:
>
> For the sake of brevity and clarity, this takes the form of a skeleton
chronology; something that may be fleshed out more fully according to interest
and contributions from other members. I am particularly interested in any
recollections USA members may have about their attendance at UK meetings.
>
> As you know, I am new to AA history, apart from my own of course, but it is
entirely possible now to delve in depth into archive material, which I hope to
be able to do eventually: This is just a timely offering drawn from sources
immediately to hand, without further research. So here goes:
>
> 1946 JULY
> The earliest official record appears to be a letter to the N.Y. central office
from Dorothy HE, an American who had been living in London for an unspecified
period. She gave as her replacement contact for London the name of Chris B. He
apparently was 12-stepped by Albert T, that friendly Fifth Avenue tailor who was
so helpful to Bill W, and of course to AA as a whole. Conor P met Richard P in
Ireland at this time.
>
> 1947 - MARCH
> Grace O, an American AA and her (non-AA) husband Fulton were on a visit to
London. She was armed with a contact list provided by GSO N.Y., which included
the Chris B mentioned above. There were also to be found in London at that date:
Bob B, a Canadian who got sober in N.Y. some 19 months previously; a US
serviceman Vernon W, a founder member of AA in Bermuda; and Norman R-W, an
Englishman who 'wanted to want to get sober'.
>
> Grace O convened a meeting at the Dorchester Hotel, Park Lane, which was held
in her room there. In addition to those mentioned above, she managed to pull in
Patricia G, an AA from California who she had met on the ship coming over; an
American stunt driver, Flash W, and an Irish airman, Tony (Pat) F.
>
> The meeting went ahead and marks the beginning of AA proper in England. Bob B,
known after as 'Canadian' Bob, became its Secretary.
>
> I shall refer later to the difficulty experienced by the fledgling group in
placing advertising for potential membership.
>
> Later in 1947, the journal of the British Medical Association, "The Lancet",
mentioned AA in an article and Dr. Lincoln Williams, who had laboured long in
the field of alcoholism, with little success, took a strong supportive interest
in AA from then on. I shall refer to this later.
>
> 1948 - JANUARY
> Lottie T joined the London group as the first woman newcomer. She became >
Secretary later that year when Canadian Bob went to work in N. Rhodesia on a
contract.
>
> Bill H, who was "An English Greengrocer" in early editions of the BB, was
12-stepped by Canadian Bob. Bill H set up the first AA telephone service at his
office.
>
> 1948 -- AUGUST: Marty M is guest speaker at a "large open meeting" and
"performed a miracle" on her visit to London, according to Lottie T.
>
> Vernon W, the US serviceman, registered an objection regarding meeting format
concerning the Lord's Prayer and passing the hat at open meetings. I shall refer
to this later.
>
> NOVEMBER: First meeting of the Manchester group. British AA membership hits
100.
>
> 1949 - JANUARY
> Membership had risen to 120
>
> MAY
> Lottie T has serious slip. Bill W declines invitation to visit London as "the
time for such a trip is still early", but expressed his delight with "the way
things are going, on your tight little island."
>
> Edinburgh First and Glasgow Central groups officially established, after
encouragement by Marty M.
>
> First Liverpool group established.
>
> 1950 - JUNE
> Bill W and Lois, accompanied by Agnes F, commence their tour of English, Irish
and Scottish groups, staying in London at Brown's Hotel, Mayfair. More about
this later.
>
> Bill W was able to resolve the long standing problem of non-availability of AA
literature caused by currency exchange control and customs regulations.
>
> 1951 - APRIL
> First Welsh group meets in Cardiff, among those present was Sackville from
Dublin, famous for (among other things) this epigram : "AA members are like
paratroopers jumping from the aircraft. The 12 Steps are the parachute. It's
suggested you pull the rip-cord, but it's entirely optional."
>
> London service office established in Chelsea, serving UK and Ireland.
>
> 1953
> First "Blue Bonnets" convention held at Dumfries.
>
> 1955
> London telephone service consolidated at Chelsea office UK membership
estimated to be 5000
>
> 1956
> First UK AA convention held at Cheltenham
>
> 1957
> Inaugural meeting of the GSB of Alcoholics Anonymous (Great Britain and
Ireland) Limited
>
> 1958
> Visit to London by Hank, General Secretary of AA N.Y. office, whose advice on
legacies led to an Act of Parliament enabling AA, a registered charity, to
refuse all legacies.
>
> 1960
> The Rowntree Trust issue a brochure on alcoholism to 23,000 doctors; this
included a short piece about AA.
>
> The Joint Committee of the British Medical Association and the Magistrates'
Association meet with two members of the AA UK GSB.
>
> 1962
> Government Department of Health recognised alcoholism as a disease.
>
> 1966 - OCTOBER
> First General Service Conference of AA UK held in Manchester
> AA UK 21st Birthday party at Grosvenor House, Park Lane, London
>
> 1969
> First World Service meeting in N.Y.
>
> 1971 - JANUARY
> Bill W died. Heavy press coverage in UK
>
> General Service Conference reports that 40 AA groups had been established
within prisons 1971
>
> First European Convention of AA meets in UK
>
> 1972
> Second World Service meeting in N.Y. adopts London as 1974 venue
> Only 10 penal establishments without AA contact in UK
>
> 1974
> Republic of Ireland sets up own service board, separates from GSB AA UK
> London hosts third World Service meeting.
> Marie O appointed as office manager at Chelsea, runs first 'professional'
telephone service.
>
> 1977
> Meetings held for first time with the Confederation of British Industry, the
Trades Union Congress and the Government Department of Health and Social
Security, leading to the publication of the Public Information workbook in 1980.
>
> 1978
> World Service Meeting, Helsinki, Finland, establishes European Information
Centre at GSO London
>
> 1983
> Establishment of 15th (English Speaking) European Region, mainly for American
servicemen.
>
> 1986
> GSO moved to York, leaving only London Region telephone service in Chelsea.
>
> 1988
> Marie retired, replaced by Maria as manager of London Region telephone office,
Chelsea
>
> 1997
> AA UK 50th Anniversary
>
> 1999
> Chelsea telephone office moved to N. London Maria retired
> John H took over as manager with wider brief
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> That is a bare bones outline which I hope will meet the immediate need.
>
> There are many apparent gaps, within which the small platoons of AA and the
unsung hero(ine)s are still doing their stuff, anonymously, if not necessarily
quietly.
>
> As Bill W writes in AA Comes of Age, "in London and Liverpool we met many very
anonymous Englishmen". Anecdotal evidence suggests that one Liverpool group was
so well hidden away that they could not be found and Bill never did get to the
meeting. I have not yet read 'Lois Remembers' and wonder if she had anything to
say about the trip.
>
> In England, we do not have circuit Speakers or prominent AA personality
figures, generally speaking, just AAs who include, of course, many titled
people, sporting and entertainment 'stars' and the like, who for the most part
retain a low profile within AA, and anonymity outside AA, whilst making their
valuable contribution to the Fellowship.
>
> It seems very clear that Marty M and Bill W, on their respective visits, were
able to open the minds of the UK Pioneers to a fuller understanding of what AA
is all about: similarly GSO N.Y. went to 'any lengths' to sponsor UK people
appropriately in the service function.
>
> Of the many things we AAs seem to have in common outside the alcoholism is a
certain propensity to ask ourselves at many junctures: "what the hell's (been)
going on here?". I certainly do. We can only clear the ground a little. I will
attempt to do that with the second part of this "potted history", where
questions left hanging, such as Brown's Hotel and the Oxford Groups, English
anonymity, the National Health Service and the psycho- versus bio- genic
adversarial debate on alcoholism, which seems to contrive to dynamite the bridge
of spirituality: the foundation precept of AA.
>
> Some of this may be speculative or anecdotal, and could border on opinion; so
I shall submit it to you first for editing, Nancy, if you do not mind, because I
would not wish, unwittingly, to "engage in any controversy": indeed there is no
useful purpose in that, bearing in mind the bridges AA has built over the years,
(some of which are listed above) between religion, medicine and psychiatry.
Those bridges seem to me to have modified much prejudice and ignorance about
alcoholism, principally by adopting an attitude of open-mindedness and taking
action informed by experience, as with our sobriety, odaat.
>
> Yours in fellowship, Max C.

0 -1 0 0
7294 Robert Stonebraker
New corrected version of the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 New corrected version of the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 4/2/2011 9:14:00 PM

I recently published to the web a book titled, "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study
of Synchronic Events Between Years 1926 and 1935 which Culminated in the Birth
of Alcoholics Anonymous."

Among the many comments I received were those pointing to mistakes in grammar
and punctuation.

But fortunately, a kind lady editor, Nancy K. from California, donated her time
and expertise to correcting my many errors.

Consequently, I am now posting this new improved version.

http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Pre_AA_History_Book_2011.pdf

My apologies for being a better high school whiskey drinker than English
student!

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
7295 Fiona Dodd
Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA 4/7/2011 5:56:00 PM

Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA

St. Patrick's Church, Cleveland, OH, April 2, 2011 4th Sunday of Lent

Darkness and Light, Blindness and Sight, - these images accompany all of us on
our journey of life and are the themes of the readings for this 4th Sunday of
Lent.

So, too, are they part of the life of Sr. Ignatia Gavin, who, as a child of 7,
on this very day in 1896, one hundred and fifteen years ago, left Ireland with
her parents and brother and journeyed to America.

Certainly for this audience, the life and influence of Sr. Ignatia are well
known not only as you've made your own journeys through darkness to light, from
blindness to sight in the AA fellowship but because you have honored her life by
this annual Mass since her death in 1966.

So, I'd like to reflect a bit about her spirituality in the light of today's
readings. The three readings and the psalm beautifully illuminate aspects of
Ignatia's deep faith and trust in the providence of her God and of the spiritual
motivation for her life of service.

"Not as humans see does God see - because humans only see appearances, but the
Lord looks into the heart" say God to Samuel in the first reading.

Ignatia was always a frail, tiny person, who struggled with some kind of a
breakdown in her early years in religious life and was aware of her personal
weaknesses. She, herself, said "had someone told me at the crossroads of life
that I'd spend my days caring for alcoholics, I'd have wilted, but God, in His
Divine Providence works in mysterious ways. He can use very weak and apparently
inefficient instruments to accomplish his purposes."

But Ignatia, believing that about herself, used that self-knowledge, and looked
into the heart of the alcoholics she felt privileged to know and help. She was
compassionate and concerned for all, generous in her help and support of the AAs
and their families, tough when she was dealing with the recalcitrant patient at
St. Thomas Hospital or Rosary Hall, persuasive and single-minded when she was
trying to get money from hospital administration or AAs for what she knew was
needed for the program, yet humble and unassuming when she was praised. And if
there are any old timers here who receiving a copy of "The Following of Christ"
from her, you know she always wrote, "pray for me." on the inside cover.

The Psalmist says "Even though I walk in the dark valley, I fear no evil; for
You are at my side with your rod and staff that give me courage."

Ignatia's journey was one of strong belief that God would accompany her and
give courage in whatever she was asked to do. Had Ignatia not worn herself down
in multiple demands of music teaching, she would never have found herself at
St. Thomas Hospital with a easier desk job in the admitting office, where one
day Dr. Bob came and asked for a bed for an alcoholic, admitted under the
diagnosis of "acute gastritis." As she later said of what became the historic
event, "it was really very simple, there was someone with a need and I was able
to find a bed."

"You were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord- Live as children of
light for light produces every kind of goodness and righteous and truth." says
St. Paul to the Ephesians.

Sr. Ignatia kept up a voluminous correspondence with many of the men and women
who went through the program. Her oft-repeated advice was simple, sincere and
reflected what she herself lived and what she had learned from the AAs over
time. For example, in a letter she wrote in 1954, to one of our sisters, she
said "Live just for today. Yesterday has gone into Eternity, trust it to God's
infinite mercy. Leave tomorrow in the care of God's loving Providence as I'm
sure Mother Mary did and in parenthesis she wrote "this is AA philosophy." But
the wording was almost identical whether she wrote to an AA priest or to his
religious superior, to a corporate leader leaving Rosary Hall , to a young man,
ordered for treatment after a car accident or a woman going back to her family.

The Gospel recounts the moving story of the man born blind, who was given the
gift of sight by Jesus. Amid all the wrangling about whether the man was really
blind from birth, whether his physical ailment was indicative of his sin,
whether Jesus was a sinner, the man was single-minded in recounting his
experience - "I was blind, but now I see," and this man healed me.

Today's Gospel shows Jesus challenging and changing the beliefs of His times
which thought that any physical disability was a direct result of sin. Not so
different from what Bill W., Dr. Bob and Ignatia and all those who followed
them understood - that alcoholism is a disease .

In the 10th anniversary of Rosary Hall in 1962, Ignatia spoke again about trying
to live the principle of AA herself- "Living One Day at a Time," trusting to
God's mercy and providence., especially as she said "when I get as most of the
patients, people who are far away from God. They are fearful to think about
Him. They feel He is too demanding, but how wonderfully kind He is when they
turn to Him. That is really, as I should say, the payoff in this work- to see
when they get that peace of soul, if they open up their mind and heart and throw
off the garbage, as we call it, and let God's grace penetrate. Their lives are
so different they can all tell you that." Her deep spirituality enabled Ignatia
to help people see the beauty of God in their lives after many years of
darkness.

Though people have made Ignatia larger than life, as an AA friend in Ignatia's
own County Mayo, Ireland said to me, " she carried a simple but powerful message
to all of us, she gave us hope when we didn't have any and that hope and her
humility touches us to this day."

Ignatia, who now enjoys the eternal light, would say to you, as she often
concluded her talks, "God bless everyone of you, my own alcoholics, whom I've
had the privilege and pleasure of working with and their immediate relatives."

Sr. Mary Denis Maher, CSA

0 -1 0 0
7296 calistogababe
Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook 3/27/2011 12:01:00 PM

From Suzanne T.

The following information seemed to be relevant to answering my question about
the 3 p's. There was a book called This Believing World by Lewis Browne, which I
heard about on a history of AA share by Jim Burwell:
jim-b-bbhistory1957.mp3 at xa.speakers.org

http://www.aabibliography.com/believingworldbrown.html
Jim Burwell writes in his early 1940s history of alcoholics anonymous: It is my
opinion that a great deal of Bill's traditions came from the fourth book, Lewis
Browne's This Believing World. From this book, I believe Bill attained a
remarkable perception of possible future pitfalls for groups of our kind for it
clearly shows that the major failures of religions and cults in the past have
been due to one of three things: Too much organization, too much politics, and
too much money or power.

Charles Knapp Writes:

Oh yes Bill knew of this book all right. He read almost everything on the
subject of spiritual experiences. This Believing World by Lewis Browne, and The
God Who Speaks by B.H. Streeter are just 2 other books on the subject he read.

I can't find the website, but both of Browne's books were listed in Bill W.'s
library and Dick B. lists This Believing World to be part of Dr. Bob and Anne's
library and a book they loaned out.
http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=3092&C=2623
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aapeople.html

________________________________________

From Suzanne T.

But then I found out about Victor Kitchen's Oxford Group book "I Was a Pagan"
along with the link to the article called "The Names of God: How to find a God
of our understanding" at
http://hindsfoot.org/namegod.html

________________________________________


In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, dillonr9@... wrote:
>
> Victor Kitchen, in his book, I WAS A PAGAN (1934) cites 5 P's he was a pagan
to: power, possession, position, pleasure and Applause. Perhaps this book was
in Bill's mind. He may have read this book while a member of the Oxford Group
since its author was also a member of the Oxford Group. Peace.

- - - -

> From GC the moderator:
>
> Vic Kitchen and Bill Wilson both joined the Oxford Group in New York City at
about the same time, and were friends. Kitchen gives an excellent picture of
what the Oxford Group looked like (and how it functioned and what it taught) in
the New York City area at the time Bill Wilson was active in the group.
>
> For the text of I Was a Pagan, see www.stepstudy.org and for a description of
what the book taught, see
http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html
>
> The Five P's passage is at the beginning of Chapter 1. I quote the opening of
that chapter here:
>
> CHAPTER I
> THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS
> PAGANISM
>
> At twenty, life looked like a high adventure -- intriguing and indecorous. At
thirty, it looked like a high endeavor -- socially and economically important.
By forty, however, I grew highly dubious. Life seemed to have lost flavor on
both counts. It was then that I met the Oxford Group. At this time, I think, I
would have described myself as "white, married and a Christian." Actually I was
somewhat tarnished and discolored, married in name only, and very much of a
pagan. A pagan is a man who spends his time chasing false gods. And I had spent
forty years of my time in chasing "Pleasure," Possessions," "Power," "Position"
and "Applause." I now call these pagan goals my unfortunate five "P's."

Thanks all,

In the Fellowship of the Spirit,
Suzanne

________________________________________


Original Message from: "calistogababe" > <suzthurston@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011
Subject: Name of book/author on 3 p's: prestige, power and pocketbook

There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing
the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3
principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3
p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook.

Does anyone know the name of that book or the author?

Many thanks,
Suzanne T.

0 -1 0 0
7297 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature 3/31/2011 12:35:00 PM

Wikipedia: "The existence of alcoholism as a disease is accepted by some within
the medical and scientific communities although critics exist..." That phrase
"although critics exist" - implying public controversy - plunges AA into
Tradition Ten territory. One such critic, Jeffrey Schaler (psychologist and
consultant in addiction and social policy at Silver Spring, Maryland), in his
book "Addiction is a choice" (Open Court, 2000), wrote, "Biomedical and
psychosocial scientists range across both sides of the (disease) controversy
(Filmore and Sigvardsson 1988) ... My impression is that the disease model is
steadily losing ground..."
John Crossan discusses the difference between illness and disease in "Jesus: a
revolutionary biography" (Harper Collins 1995). He wrote: "Medical anthropology
or comparative ethnomedicine has proposed a basic distinction between curing a
disease and healing an illness." He quotes Leon Eisenberg: "Patients suffer
illnesses; physicians treat diseases. Illnesses are experiences of disvalued
changes in states of being and in social functions; diseases in the scientific
paradigm of modern medicine are abnormalities in the structure and function of
bodily organs and systems... Our success in dealing with certain disease
problems breeds then ideological error that a technical fix is the potential
solution to all ... It is essential to enquire how we can expand our horizons to
incorporate an understanding of illness as a psychological event. Indeed, our
worship of restricted and incomplete disease models can be viewed as a kind of
ritual or magical practice in itself." Crossan also refers to Arthur Kleinman:
"The key axiom in medical anthropology is a dichotomy between two aspects of
sickness: disease and illness. Disease refers to a a malfunctioning of
biological and/or psychological processes, while the term illness refers to a
psychosocial experience and meaning of perceived disease." Crossan adds: "A
disease is, to put it bluntly, between me and my doctor, and a bug ... Disease
sees a problem unrealistically, on a minimal level; illness realistically on a
wider level ... A cure for a disease is absolutely desirable, but in its absence
we can still heal the illness by refusing to ostracise those who have it, by
empathising with their anguish and by enveloping their sufferings with both our
respect and love..." (Emphasis added). I believe AA was wise to describe
alcoholism as an illness in the Big Book, ("An illness of this sort - and we
have come to believe it an illness ..." - chapter two, There is a solution)
rather than using the more limiting word disease.
In in his March 1958 Grapevine article "On the alcoholism front" Bill W. wrote,
"The American Medical Association has officially declared alcoholism to be a
chronic illness ... The World Health organisation is carrying (all this) good
news around the world ..." However, "Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious
organisation. Neither does it AA take any particular medical point of view,
though we cooperate widely with the men (sic) of medicine as well as with the
men of religion..." (Foreword, Alcoholics Anonymous, second edition - emphasis
added).
In a letter to me dated 18 October 2000 Bill A., of GSO, New York, wrote: "Our
role as a society of recovered alcoholics helping others does not endow us with
any medical or scientific stature. Therefore the issue of a medical
determination of a disease is something on which AA could have no position. Our
Traditions are clear in reminding us not to be diverted from our primary purpose
as a Fellowship, and as members of that Fellowship we should respect the
limitations we have. Doctor Silkworth's view of alcoholism is still contained in
the basic text Alcoholics Anonymous, though as a separate and distinct Foreword.
It may lack a certain medical credence these days, though the ideas still
resonate with many AA's and newcomers."
Seems to me that by carrying the definition of alcoholism quoted by Dennis M.,
the pamphlet "AA as a resource for the healthcare professional" comes perilously
adjacent to endorsing the American Society of Addiction Medicine and the
National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, thus setting AA on a
collision course with Traditions Six and Ten.

Laurie A.

0 -1 0 0
7298 corafinch
Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook 4/8/2011 8:36:00 AM

Suzanne, I too thought of the Lewis Browne book when I read your post. I have a
copy, so I did a quick scan of the relevant sections and didn't find anything
similar to the "3 P's."

Probably the Victor Kitchen book was the closest source, but expressions of that
sort appeared in other places as well. I think the common source may have been
the James Winan book, Public Speaking, which was popular in the early-to-mid
20th century. Winan's list of internal motivators (hooks for speakers to keep
the audience listening) was similar to Kitchen's list of his own pre-conversion
motivators. They were sometimes boiled down to "property, prestige, power"
although the original list was longer.

0 -1 0 0
7299 john wikelius
Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/30/2011 4:02:00 PM

From John Wikelius, Les Cole, and Patrick Murphy

- - - -

From: john wikelius <justjohn1431946@yahoo.com>
(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)

It is written in my Big Book Page 30, "We alcoholics are men and women who have
lost the ability to control our drinking.

- - - -

From: LES COLE <elsietwo@msn.com>
(elsietwo at msn.com)

Hi All:

Back in 1994 when I started doing research about AA, I gradually defined a
simple definition as to the difference between "a drunk" and "an alcoholic" for
my own thinking. This does not have a source for others to look up. It is only
reasoned as a pragmatist...such as Bill was.

A "drunk" is a person who perpetually uses alcohol (in some form) to a
debilitating degree, and doesn't choose (can't) to do anything about it.

An "alcoholic" is a similar person who has the same type of difficulties with
alcohol, but takes action to change the addiction, behaviorally. Thus, the use
of the word "recovering".

Les C
Colorado Springs, Colorado

- - - -

From: Patrick Murphy <paddymur@yahoo.com>
(paddymur at yahoo.com)

All this hoopla about AA's success rate ... from what I've observed over the
years (43) is that AA has 100% success. Every single person I've encountered who
has 'worked the Steps' has stayed sober. Every one who has ever entered our AA
doors and 'did as suggested' has stayed sober. Ah yes, we have a large number of
people who say 'I ain't doin' that' and 'I want the easier softer way' and they
get eliminated. So, shouldn't they try to figure out why there's such a large
group that won't surrender and quit saying AA has a low success rate?

--Pat Murphy

0 -1 0 0
7300 joe
Re: Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent 4/1/2011 11:07:00 PM

Brent,

I served as a delegate to the General Service Conference of AA in UK. I chaired
a committee who had the challenge of considering a long standing law of the
land, a tax law specifically. In the UK, if a tax payer chooses to make a
contribution to a registered charity, the government matches the contribution so
long as the tax payer files the proper forms to allow the government to do so.
In the UK, their GSO is such a registered charity, just as in the USA it is
considered a tax-exempt, nonprofit corporation or association under section 501c
of the IRS code.

Therefore, we had the task of considering whether that was within the spirit of
the AA Traditions and recommend back to the General Service Conference body. It
was one of the toughest questions I have experienced. I had to lead an unbiased
discussion, but had strong opinions of my own.

At the end, the conference body accepted that the law of the land should be
followed and individuals were free to donate in this manner if they wished or to
simply choose to donate without completing the proper forms to alert the
government of the donation.

There are several other experiences closer to Denmark that could be sought from
local autonomous AA service bodies. The European Service Meeting provides a
venue for GSO's in your area to get together and share ideas also.

Good luck and God bless.

0 -1 0 0
7301 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain AA groups paying rent in Great Britain 3/31/2011 6:59:00 AM

The relevant paragraph (five) in the Act reads: "(1) If and to the extent that
the Company (GSB AA GB) disclaims the property comprised in a relevant
disposition then (unless a contrary intention is expressed in the will, deed or
other document) such disposition shall take effect - (a) (so long as the Council
[the Alcohol Education and Research Council established by the 1981 Act] is in
existence and is administering the Fund [the Alcohol Education and Research
Fund] as a gift to the Council to form part of the Fund; or (b) (if the Council
shall be dissolved or shall have ceased to administer the Fund) as a gift to a
charity appointed under subsection (2) below, (2) If the Council shall be
dissolved or shall cease to administer the Fund the Company (AA) may within six
months of the dissolution or the cessation, as the case may be, appoint for the
purpose of subsection (1) (b) above, with the approval of the Charity
Commissioners, a charity having purposes similar to those of the Fund. (3) For
the purposes of this section a relevant disposition shall not be taken as
expressing a contrary intention by reason only that it does not (or may not)
evince a general charitable intention.
6. This Act extends to Scotland.

(From the Alcohol Education and Research Council [AERC] website): "The council's
main aims are to: generate and disseminate research-based evidence to inform and
influence policy and practice; develop the capacity of people and organisations
to address alcohol issues."

This is what Bill W wrote, in part, in an article headed "On the alcoholism
front" in the March 1958 issue of "Grapevine": "We believe that sound alcohol
education is a good thing ... We are glad of any kind of education that
accurately informs the public and changes its age-old attitude toward the drunk
... Now who is going to do all this education? Obviously, it is both a community
job and a job for specialists. Individually, we AA's can help, but AA as such
cannot, and should not, get directly into this field. Therefore, we must rely on
other agencies ..."

I take it AA was consulted while the Parliamentary Bill and Act were being
drafted, and it seems to me the chances are vanishingly small that AA would be
harmed by any subsequent association with the AERC; but let's cross that bridge
if and when we come to it!

____________________________________________


From: chief_roger@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011
Subject: Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain

With respect to message #7270 from Laurie Andrews
<jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7270

LAURIE SAID: In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to
pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen
a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York.
Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA
Great Britain website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share"
magazine (the Great Britain equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report ....

I have seen the text of this Act posted on the wall of the Great Britain GSO
Archives display in York, England. It is a powerful spiritual example of going
any lengths to adhere to our traditions. However, the solicitors (lawyers) on
both sides had a hand in it.

The law passed, in practice, could result in money donated to AA Grat Britain
not actually be returned to the family of the donor, but instead be sent to
another registered charity that does alcohol research (of a sort that AA may or
may not agree with -- research that we certainly do not endorse or oppose in any
way).

I am looking through my files to see if I can find a copy of how it is written,
but the large ornamental one that I saw was framed on the wall.

Roger W.

0 -1 0 0
7302 dani n
Anne Smith''s prayer Anne Smith''s prayer 3/30/2011 6:00:00 PM

I was listening to a speaker tape last night (Chris S. and Dave F.'s "big book
adventure") and they referred to a handout that of course I don't have, with a
list of prayers. The last one mentioned was a little-known prayer that they said
Anne wrote for Dr. Bob that they would say together each morning - from one AA
history book or another. Does anyone know what this is? A thorough Googling
didn't help me at all!

- Dani

0 -1 0 0
7303 Glenn Chesnut
Anne Smith''s prayer? Or Lois and Bill Wilson''s prayer? Anne Smith''s prayer? Or Lois and Bill Wilson''s prayer? 4/8/2011 3:38:00 PM

Dani,

Did the speakers say it was a prayer written by Anne Smith, and that she and Dr.
Bob recited it each morning? That doesn't sound quite right to me. In the
mornings at the Smith house, Anne would read that day's meditation from The
Upper Room, reading it aloud for her family and for all the alcoholics in the
Akron group who had dropped by her house for coffee before going to work.

There is a collection of some typical daily readings from The Upper Room at
http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html
also see their website at http://www.upperroom.org/

BILL AND LOIS WILSON'S PRAYER

What you are describing seems to be the prayer which Bill and Lois Wilson
recited together every morning. You can read it in Pass It On, on page 265, or
you can read it on the internet by going to

http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html

on AA spirituality, and going two thirds of the way down to the selection marked
"Prayers and readings for an A.A. funeral or memorial service." Clicking on that
will take you to:

http://hindsfoot.org/funeral1.html

About one third of the way down, you will find:

===================================
Bill & Lois's Prayer
(from Pass It On, page 265)

Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,
that we are from everlasting to everlasting.

Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions to us
of light, of love, and of service.
May we find and do Thy will
in good strength, in good cheer today.

May Thy ever-present grace be discovered
by family and friends
-- those here and those beyond --
by our Societies throughout the world,
by men and women everywhere,
and among those who must lead
in these troubled times.

Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,
all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.
Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.

Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us a destiny
passing through Thy many mansions,
ever in more discovery of Thee
and in no separation between ourselves.
===================================


Original message from: dani n <claritystone@gmail.com>
(claritystone@gmail.com)
Subject: Anne Smith's prayer

I was listening to a speaker tape last night (Chris S. and Dave F.'s "big book
adventure") and they referred to a handout that of course I don't have, with a
list of prayers. The last one mentioned was a little-known prayer that they said
Anne wrote for Dr. Bob that they would say together each morning - from one AA
history book or another. Does anyone know what this is? A thorough Googling
didn't help me at all!

- Dani

0 -1 0 0
7304 Mike Portz
1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/10/2011 2:25:00 AM

My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written)
edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page
28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol."

I believe this is the condition I was in when I arrived at A.A. It doesn't
matter to my recovery what someone with a degree in anything, who is not a
alcoholic nor addict, defines alcoholism. The doctors of all specialties were
never able to find any solution to putting this disease into remission. It seems
from reading about the history of alcoholism, that few really cared. How could
they if they hadn't lived it? Thank God for Dr. Silkworth! Although he was not
afflicted, he spent most of his life living with we who suffer. He truly cared.

With regards to the statement ".... My impression is that the disease model is
steadily losing ground ..." I think it is not really important what opinion a
man -- a man of what I consider limited experience, no first hand personal
experience of its tortures, and a highly speculative impression -- has of what
the medical world considers alcoholism.

It might be important to note that the word disease, as defined in the same
above-mentioned dictionary, is defined as, " any mental, moral or physical
disorder; malady: illness." This certainly describes exactly whatever disorder,
malady or illness I am afflicted with. I hope it works for you and any other
members of AAHISTORY.COM.

0 -1 0 0
7305 Byron Bateman
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/11/2011 6:07:00 AM

My 1937 New Popular Pocket Webster Dictionary Self-pronouncing has exactly the
same definitions.

Byron

- - - -

Original message #7304 from Mike Portz
<mportz2000@yahoo.com> (mportz2000 at yahoo.com)

My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written)
edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page
28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol."

0 -1 0 0
7306 Chuck Parkhurst
RE: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/10/2011 2:55:00 PM

Why would the authors of the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism
REPEATEDLY refer to the condition we suffer from as an "illness" if they meant
"disease?" In many areas of our book, we see the authors repeatedly use
synonyms and similar phrases to make the same point over and over. However, when
the authors use this same device regarding the alcoholic illness, they do NOT
use disease and prefer a term like malady. I believe that the fact disease is
conspicuous by its absence in similar circumstances confirms that the authors
were specifically avoiding that term and for good reason.

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

_________________________________________

Original message from: Mike Portz
Subject: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as
diseased condition

My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was
written) edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office
Dictionary" on page 28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by
alcohol."

It might be important to note that the word disease, as defined in the same
above-mentioned dictionary, is defined as, "any mental, moral or physical
disorder; malady: illness." This certainly describes exactly whatever disorder,
malady or illness I am afflicted with.

I believe this is the condition I was in when I arrived at A.A. It doesn't
matter to my recovery what someone with a degree in anything, who is not a
alcoholic nor addict, defines alcoholism. The doctors of all specialties were
never able to find any solution to putting this disease into remission. It seems
from reading about the history of alcoholism, that few really cared. How could
they if they hadn't lived it? Thank God for Dr. Silkworth! Although he was not
afflicted, he spent most of his life living with we who suffer. He truly cared.

With regards to the statement ".... My impression is that the disease model is
steadily losing ground ..." I think it is not really important what opinion a
man -- a man of what I consider limited experience, no first hand personal
experience of its tortures, and a highly speculative impression -- has of what
the medical world considers alcoholism.

0 -1 0 0
7307 jaxena77
Grapevine Play in Los Angeles Grapevine Play in Los Angeles 4/12/2011 4:30:00 PM

To Our Friends and Supporters in the AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group,

We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own
Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County
for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell
Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph,
Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in
Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the
researching and writing of this documentary style play.

Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only
audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to
anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON!

Forward this message to a friend -
http://oi.vresp.com/f2af/v4/send_to_friend.html?ch=0076d7232a&lid=TEST&ldh=TEST

In Love and Service,
Jackie B.

===============================================
FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS:
http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/
===============================================

IN OUR OWN WORDS:
PIONEERS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

Performing for the first time in Los Angeles County!

A SPECIAL BENEFIT FOR ICYPAA 2011!
Saturday, June 25 at 8 pm
The Lincoln Middle School Theater
1501 California Ave, Santa Monica, CA

Played to standing room only audiences in San Antonio in 2010, In Our Own Words
brings to life the pages of the Big Book, The Grapevine and the recordings of
the pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous. Simply, and with great humor and depth,
the play retells the stories of our founders in New York, Akron, Cleveland and
Los Angeles. Going further into our history, In Our Own Words also shares the
lesser-known struggles of the pioneering members of special composition groups
in the fellowship, including the first women and young people in AA, as well as
early gay, lesbian, African-American and Latino members. Join men and women like
Marty Mann, Sybil Corwin, Cliff Walker, Barry
Leach, Joe McQuanny, and many more, on their search for a solution and
acceptance in the rooms. Their stories, and this play, are not to be missed.
Tickets available soon at www.icypaahost.org

0 -1 0 0
7308 jax760
Disease concept: Jellinek, Ernest Kurtz, William L. White Disease concept: Jellinek, Ernest Kurtz, William L. White 4/13/2011 10:47:00 AM

If I might suggest that some of the the best information I've read regarding the
"Disease Concept" -- yes that is what it is, a "concept" (and btw still not
universally accepted and still evolving) can better be understood by reading the
following references which provide some of the history of this debate. AA "as
such" never pushed the "disease" theory although the fellowship certainly framed
its belief as such and taught it to all newcomers, instead it was Marty Mann and
the NCEA along with the RCPA and Yale's Center for Alcohol Studies that really
brought the concept to its acceptance in society that it enjoys today.

========================================
JELLINEK:

The Disease Concept of Alcoholism – Jellinek; 1960
========================================
ERNEST KURTZ:

Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism
Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D.(google it)
========================================
WILLIAM L. WHITE:

A four-part series on the history and future of the addiction disease concept.
White, W. (2000)

1. Addiction as a Disease: Birth of a Concept. Counselor, 1(1):46-51, 73.

2. The Rebirth of the Disease Concept of Alcoholism in the 20th
Century.1(2):62-66.

3. Addiction Disease Concept: Advocates and Critics; White
Counselor, February 2001

4. A Disease Concept for the 21st Century, White
Counselor, April 2001
========================================

0 -1 0 0
7309 Jon Markle
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/12/2011 6:38:00 PM

From Jon Markle, Glenn Chesnut, James Bliss, and Jeanne Fisera (Jifgift)

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <jon.markle@mac.com>
(jon.markle at mac.com)

The authors of the "first 164 pages" DID use the word "disease." See page 64.
In addition, in my copy of the 3rd ed on page 187, there is a significant quote
in this story which makes it clear the original founders used that word. There
are other instances in the Big Book stories, but this is one of the more
significant ones, I think.

There is no doubt in my mind that the descriptions used in the Big Book, and the
words used, clearly indicate the authors believed in the "disease" model. A
disease that impacts the whole, entire body, consuming and insidiously infecting
every part.

It is why I believe that any approach to recovery ALSO must address every aspect
of the person, not just the act of stopping drinking.

Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling
Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S
HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation
Raleigh, NC

- - - -

<glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

===========================
THE TERMS ACTUALLY USED IN THE BIG BOOK
===========================
Disease is in fact used only four times, but four significant times:

(page 64) As part of the explanation of how to do a Fourth Step: "Resentment is
the 'number one' offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From
it stem all forms of spiritual DISEASE, for we have been not only mentally and
physically ILL, we have been spiritually SICK. When the spiritual MALADY is
overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." (Emphasis added by me.)

>> Reading this passage from page 64, it looks
>> to me like all four of these words were being
>> regarded in 1939 as synonyms by Bill Wilson
>> and the early AA members.

(pages 187-188) Bill W. and Dr. Bob talking to Bill Dotson, A.A. No. 3: "You are
an ALCOHOLIC .... you have a DISEASE, and it doesn't make any difference how
long you do without it, after a drink or two you'll end up just like you are
now." (Emphasis added by me.)

(page 191) Bill Wilson himself talking to Bill Dotson's wife Henrietta:
"Henrietta, the Lord has been so wonderful to me, curing me of this terrible
disease, that I just want to keep talking about it and telling people."

(page 191) Bill Dotson continues: "That sentence, 'The Lord has been so
wonderful to me, curing me of this terrible disease, that I just want to keep
telling people about it,' has been a sort of GOLDEN TEXT for the A.A. program
and for me." (Emphasis added by me.)
===========================
Sick, sick person, or sickness 19 times -- pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101,
106, 107, 108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164.
===========================
Ill or illness 14 times -- pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122,
139, 140, and 142.
===========================
The words ail or ailment are used 3 times -- pages 135, 139, 140.
===========================
Malady appears 6 times -- pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165.
===========================

- - - -

From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>
(james.bliss at comcast.net)

Well, to throw an additional dictionary into the discussion, and to
include the definitions of disease, illness and malady:

The Winston Simplified Dictionary
Intermediate Edition, 1928

alcoholism n. a diseased condition produced by the use of fermented or
distilled liquors.

disease n. disorder of mind or body; malady; illness; Disease is the
general term for any departure from a state of health; it frequently
suggests a more serious or long-continued state than either sickness or illness.
Illness and sickness mean practically the same thing; but
sickness sometimes has the additional meaning of nausea or vomiting.

illness n. 1. the condition of being sick; 2, a disease; sickness

malady n. a disease, exp. one deep-seated or lingering, mental or physical

Jim

- - - -

From: Jifgift@aol.com (Jifgift at aol.com)

The 1934 Webster Collegiate Dictionary says Alcoholism is a "diseased condition
of the system due to excessive use of alcoholic liquors".

Faith alone is insufficient. To be vital, faith must be accompanied by
self-sacrifice and unselfish, constructive action. BB p.63

jeanne fisera

0 -1 0 0
7310 Tom
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/12/2011 3:56:00 PM

From tomvlll and Tom Hickcox -- responding to the message posted by Chuck
Parkhurst

- - - -

From "Tom" <tomvlll@yahoo.com> (tomvlll at yahoo.com)

There exists no universally agreed upon, objective definition of the word
disease, thus it is open to the interpretation of anyone who chooses to define
it. The AMA, Webster's, the WHO etc. I agree with Chuck's take that the absence
of that term in the BB was not in any way incidental. Subsequent statements by
Wilson corroborate that.

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

I would invoke Rule 62 at this juncture:

> Message #7306 from "Chuck Parkhurst"
> (ineedpage63@cox.net) says
>
> Why would the authors of the most definitive
> book EVER written on alcoholism REPEATEDLY
> refer to the condition we suffer from as an
> "illness" if they meant "disease?" In many
> areas of our book, we see the authors
> repeatedly use synonyms and similar phrases
> to make the same point over and over.
> However, when the authors use this same
> device regarding the alcoholic illness,
> they do NOT use disease and prefer a term
> like malady. I believe that the fact disease
> is conspicuous by its absence in similar
> circumstances confirms that the authors
> were specifically avoiding that term and
> for good reason.


Tommy H in Baton Rouge

0 -1 0 0
7311 bsdds@comcast.net
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/12/2011 3:48:00 PM

From Bob Schultz "bsdds" and LaurenceHolbrook "hdmozart"

- - - -

From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net)

Many years ago, I was listening to a public service program concerning
epilepsy. One of the first thing the moderator commented on was the "disease" of
epilepsy. He went into a short but direct point of saying epilepsy was a
"condition" not a disease and told why. It made a lot of sense to me at the time
and still does. Again ... I got and what ever it is .... I don't take the first
drink because, in the past drinking put me in a condition of behaving badly ...
over and over and over and ......................

Bob Schultz
Charlottesville, Virginia

- - - -

From: "hdmozart" <email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at

LaurenceHolbrook.com)

I thought Bill W directly addressed this issue in the National Catholic Council
on Alcoholism and Related Drug Problems, Inc, "The Blue Book", Vol. XII, 1960,
New York, New York

A Synopsis of the Question-Answer Period FOLLOWING BILL W.'S TALK

AT THE NCCA SYMPOSIUM IN NEW YORK IN 1960

Father X.: Bill, I noticed that in your talk you did not use the word `disease.'
Did you intend to make any kind of distinction between disease and sickness?

Bill W: We AAs have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically
speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as
heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments or combinations of
them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore, we did not wish to
get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease
entity. Hence, we have always called it an illness or a malady — a far safer
term for us to use.

0 -1 0 0
7312 pamelafro88
Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings 4/15/2011 4:01:00 AM

A service sponsee asked me whether there is any literature relating to proxy or
absentee voting at a group conscience meeting. While I have never encountered
this, I said I would ask whether there is any precedence or service material
relating to this. My thoughts are that unless a person is in attendance they
cannot be fully informed and therefore shouldn't cast a vote - and for other
service positions, an alternate covers for unavaiodable absences. Any ideas?

0 -1 0 0
7313 intuited
Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #2 Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #2 4/13/2011 6:53:00 PM

Glenn, thanks for your thoughts on atheism and agnosticism. After rereading
your book on "The Higher Power of the 12 Step Program"
http://hindsfoot.org/kHP1.html and other literature, I have become acutely aware
of the many definitions of agnostics and atheists. Throughout the ages
agnostics seem to have been those who balked at the current religious thought.
Quakers were even called agnostics. I have decided these terms are not
definable, especially in light of their historical use. What seems to me to be
more accurate is the use of the term gnostic -- direct knowing of the sacred.
This seems much more in keeping with AA spirituality, whether utilizing the
words "spirit in the rooms" on through to 11th step conscious contact. Jung was
intrigued with gnostics as well.

On Mar 16, 2011, at 2:33 PM, Glenn Chesnut wrote:

In a preceding message, Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> wrote: "I recently
reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA.
Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I
began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word
to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital
spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with
meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect
of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is
in the process of publishing a pamphlet 'which focuses on spirituality that
includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in
Alcoholics Anonymous.' This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to
reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse
of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian'
spirituality?"

The Greek prefix a- means no, not, un-

>>The term "theist" refers to someone who believes that God (Theos) exists.

>>The term "a-theist" therefore refers to someone who believes that there is no
God, that God (Theos) does not exist.

>>Ginosko in ancient Greek meant "I know," so an "a-gnostic" is (literally)
someone caught in a state of "un-knowing."

- - - -

THE RISE OF WESTERN ATHEISM IN THE 1840'S

In a book I just wrote, I talk on pp. 123-124 about the Rise of Modern Atheism
in the 1840's. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality

paperback:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywo\
rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15

kindle:
http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZRN82/\
ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr


TRADITIONAL THEISTS: Some people in the western world rejected these new
atheistic ideas completely, and kept on trying to defend the old conceptualities
of the ancient and medieval worlds: the Bible was literally true, the church
authorities were infallible, people walked on water and rose from the dead, and
so on.

THE NEW ATHEISTS (1840 and afterwards): Other people in the western world
embraced these new atheistic ideas enthusiastically. A new world of science --
where the scientists were rapidly gaining infallible truth and explaining all
things -- was going to lead the human race out of the darkness of the past.
There would no longer be any uncontrollable natural phenomena killing people
(like earthquakes and tsunamis?), everyone in the world would be given excellent
health care (through universal health care) so that no one would ever get sick
and die any longer, our machines (oil drilling rigs and nuclear power plants)
would never malfunction and kill people, and so on.

"AGNOSTICS": But there were many people caught in the middle: they had been
brought up with traditional religious beliefs and did not want to let go of
them, and yet they had no real answers to all the attacks that the atheists were
making on their most cherished articles of faith. And there were others who had
tired of the whole debate, and insisted that they weren't going to believe
anything at all, past this point, without some kind of scientific evidence to
support it.

- - - -

THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON AGNOSTICISM

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Thomas Henry Huxley gave a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in
1876, in which he coined to word "agnostic" (not-knowing, un-knowing,
non-knowing) to describe his philosophy, which was a rejection of ALL claims of
spiritual or mystical knowledge. "Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed
but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry."

But in the many years that followed, the word "agnostic" got adapted to describe
all sorts of different approaches to religion. The Wikipedia article describes
some of these varieties:

===========================================
*Agnostic atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have
belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to
know that a deity does not exist.

*Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of
any deity, but still believe in such an existence.

*Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either
the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist
appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the
question is largely academic.

*Ignosticism: The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward
before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed.
If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist
view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable.
A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and
agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and
agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be
argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or
a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth.

*Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent
agnosticism"): The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a
deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of
our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another
subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a
deity exists or not, and neither can you."

*Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal
agnosticism"): The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is
currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold
judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't
know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence
we can find something out."
===========================================

As far as I can tell, there are very few AA members who genuinely understand
what the term "agnostic" originally meant, that is, what the word meant between
1876 and 1939. Maybe a handful, but not many. And as far as I can see, the term
"agnostic" has now come to mean so many different things, that it hardly has any
real meaning left at all.

So Amelia, I think that you are probably correct when you say that, at New York
AA headquarters, the term AGNOSTIC is "being used as a code word to mean
non-Christian," that is, as a "way to talk about 'other than Christian'
spirituality."

But for myself, I think that using the word "agnostic" in this way is a misuse
of terms, because the chapter in the Big Book called "We Agnostics" was an
attempt to deal with the skeptical position which Thomas Henry Huxley put
forward in 1876. If we want a pamphlet talking about Hindu, Buddhist, New Age,
Native American spirituality, worship of the Triple Goddess, wicca, modern
California gnostic and kabbalistic groups, and other things of that sort, that
they should have titled it something different, like perhaps "Varieties of AA
Spirituality." And I also think that some of the hostility toward the pamphlet
(among a lot of AA members) might lessen to a degree if it were retitled in that
fashion. But that's just my two cents worth.
__________________________________________

Original message from Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at
earthlink.net)

Glenn .... I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which
featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.

As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly
being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of
references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious
beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories
and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.

The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a
pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and
agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st
Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very
curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way
to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?

Amelia

0 -1 0 0
7314 intuited
Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #1 Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #1 4/13/2011 6:49:00 PM

Rick, I enjoyed your email and wanted to follow up with my current thinking on
the conference. Your thoughts were very helpful.

Conference Pamphlet.
The 61st Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous will address one of the most
critical issues of our organization, -- the question of spirituality and the AA
premise regarding its nature as it impacts on sobriety. Last year the 60th
Conference approved a motion to: "develop literature which focuses on
spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are
successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." The phrase “who are successfully
sober in Alcoholics Anonymous" has created a fury which has resulted in a
request to rescind this motion (Agenda G of the Literature Committee.)

AA was founded and is maintained by a set of principles for the individual and
the organization that are spiritual in nature. This spirituality requires that
each person determine the nature of this spiritual power, greater than herself
or himself, through his or her own direct knowledge of that power. This direct
experience can be described in a myriad of terms including the power, wisdom,
miracles and/or love in the rooms of AA (see The Best of Bill, p. 2). Many of
us move from the spirits in the bottles to the spirits in the rooms. One’s
perception of this power is never questioned, only one’s surrender to IT. The
alcoholic must come to the end of oneself. Spirituality is a result of “working
the 12 steps.

This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of
our fundamental beliefs. It implies that agnostics and atheists can, without
spirituality or the steps, be successfully sober. And it implies that the
trustees’ Literature Committee can define this new premise and its success with
alcoholism by the selection of certain success stories. It also references a
religion, atheism. Yet the U.S courts have ruled on several occasions that
atheism is a religion. Our documents make clear that we are not a religion.
The Conference has already decided that we will have no literature on religion
so this motion is in violation of a previous conference decision.

The trustees’ Literature Committee brilliantly sidestepped this dilemma by
planning the development of a pamphlet that would have a general introduction
and stories from alcoholics sober in AA reflecting a wide range of spiritual
experiences. The subcommittee agreed that the target audience for the pamphlet
would be the alcoholic newcomer who struggles with the spiritual aspect of the
program...and it could be used as a resource for professionals who have
questions about the subject. (See February 3, 2011 Agenda Item B, Background
Doc. 1, trustees' Literature Committee.) They then issued:

Call for Stories Focused on Spirituality

In response to the 2010 General Service Conference recommendation the 'the
trustees' Committee on Literature develop literature which focuses on
spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are
successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous...' the trustee's Literature
Committee is seeking stories from AA members.

The trustees are looking for stories that reflect a wide range of spiritual
experiences from AA members who, with any belief or non-belief, have found a
solution to the concept of spirituality and sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous.

Manuscripts should be 500-800 words, double-spaced. Please attach your name and
address on a separate piece of paper. The anonymity of all authors will be
observed, whether or not their story is selected for publication. Please send
sharing, by February 15, 2011 to: Literature Coordinator, General Service
Office, Box 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163, or e-mail:
literature@aa.org."

Although they temporarily sidestepped this dilemma, this did not satisfy those
who requested that the motion be rescinded. Thus it will be taken up within the
trustees’ Literature Committee and possibly the floor.

From the beginnings of AA atheists and agnostics insisted on adding the phrase,
God “as we understand Him.” Our literature has continued to address a broad
spectrum of stories related to spirituality, including agnostics and atheists.
Are we reading and passing on these resources to the newcomer? The most
important question to answer is: “Do we need a pamphlet on spirituality?”

1. The AA Grapevine has several relevant publications, Spiritual Awakenings
(2003), Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) and Came to Believe (1973). These
documents include an abundance of stories from agnostics and atheists as well as
many eastern and other religions and philosophies. The April 2009 issue of the
Grapevine is devoted to “Agnostics in Recovery: Coming to Grips with a Higher
Power.” Additionally the AA Grapevine produced the CD, "Pathways to
Spirituality" (2002) and cassette "Pathways to Spirituality" (1987). They also
published Dilemma of No Faith and The Best of Bill by Bill W. Yet these stories
are not reflected in a pamphlet.

2. Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. has published several relevant
books and pamphlets. The 4th edition of the Alcoholics Anonymous has several
stories written by agnostics and atheists and other are in the Experience,
Strength, and Hope publication (2003). These stories include all the ones
omitted from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Big Book editions. One pamphlet, “Do You
Think You Are Different?” is similar to the new proposed pamphlet, but could be
broader in scope. It does include one story from an atheist and one story from
an agnostic (pp. 15, 31) but does not address a broad array of other spiritual
paths. This pamphlet could be combined with the new proposed pamphlet and
re-titled? Several other pamphlets briefly address agnostics and atheists:
Frequently Asked Questions about AA, This is AA: An Introduction to the AA
Recovery Program, and A Newcomer Asks…. Another pamphlet, “The AA Group: Where
It All Begins” could include a question in the Group Inventory on p. 29-30 words
in #3 such as: "Are we careful to honor all spiritual paths or do our meetings
utilize practices or prayers which favor one religion?” “Are we emphasizing
that all spiritual paths are welcome here?”

While we have been focusing on the agnostic and atheist issue we have overlooked
a much bigger issue, ---a need for a communication of the broader spectrum of
spiritual experiences and transformation. Our membership needs literature,
sponsors, meetings and 12-step work that describes and honors the incredibly
diverse spiritual paths that we utilize to get and stay sober! And a pamphlet
would make this much more accessible than our books.


On Mar 16, 2011, at 8:03 PM, ricktompkins wrote:

This is a clarification to the sharing of what's in intuited (Amelia)'s post
about the General Service Conference agenda and her final question. The
Conference Literature Committee is planning its discussion toward recommending
approval or disapproval on two agenda items:

Item B: Review progress report from the trustee's Literature Committee on the
development of literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories
from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous.

Item G: Consider a request to reconsider the 2010 Conference Advisory Action
that "the trustees Literature Committee develop literature which focuses on
spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are
successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous."

On one hand, the trustees' Literature Committee is giving a progress report on
the feasibility (want vs. need vs. cost) and format (length, type of publishing)
of new literature that would most likely be a pamphlet. That's what the 2010
Conference instructed them to develop: the possibilities.

On the other hand, item G's reconsideration request is to either recommend
Conference approval or disapproval on the "non-religious" spirituality pamphlet
which was approved to proceed last year.

The deluge of input on item G suggests a lot of constructive ideas have been
submitted for the project since last year, on both the pro and con for AAWS to
undertake such a new work of literature. In the end, only the Conference
Committee on Literature will make the recommendation to the Conference whether
to stop or proceed.

If the proposed pamphlet proceeds, the 2011 two newly Appointed Committee
Members on the Literature Committee will certainly be doing a lot of reading,
reviewing submitted work.

The AA Grapevine, Inc. has previously published four soft cover books on
spirituality without the heavy input of religious faith: two versions of "Came
To Believe, " another on "Spirituality" and another called "AA Around the
World." The question is, should AAWS, Inc. publish one, too? Give it time, and
the AA Grapevine will publish another one on AA spirituality.

In my home turf, the current issue of the Chicago Area's "Here's How" has six
articles on spirituality and only one of the articles mentions God. And in my
group and other meetings, I can understand many who are continually developing
their understanding of God, those holding an unshakable belief in the God of the
Bible, those who refuse to consider any belief because of past experience, and
those who have never been effectively exposed to God-consciousness. Call it the
whole gamut of faiths: those who say they know and those still finding out.
Anyone can get sober with or without a religious faith.

Intuited wrote: I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these
terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?"

My answer is "yes."

It could be one of AA's greatest strengths about "God as we understood Him" to
appreciate any member's generic, poorly defined 'Creator' to be called "God"
because even that slight belief keeps that member's recovery in focus. Bill W.
wrestled with the "God" concept when he first got sober, too.

I'm not uneasy when I speak of God with the name "God" when I personally have my
own belief and don't feel the need to explain it. One-on-one, it's all right for
me to explain when asked, but otherwise in general group sharing it's always
come across as a distraction.

I've been to many Pentecostal services, seminars, and plenty of AA Open Speaker
meetings, and while I love them both their intent and the destinations are very
different!

Still sober,
Rick, Illinois

0 -1 0 0
7315 Joanna
Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form 4/18/2011 12:29:00 PM

I am writing an article for our Area Newsletter re: the long and short form of
the third tradition. I have searched this forum looking for answers - found
Arthur S's Part 4 re: how the short form of the Traditions were developed.

But I am still not satisfied because I can't find anything that tells me how the
short form could possibly have adequately represented the long form.

I am glad to know now, that the short forms were not written to fit on the
window shade, as has become urban legend in AA, but I am not finding what I am
looking for.

Can anyone add any information for me on how the short form, when it was first
drawn up, was regarded as an adequate summation of the long form?

Joanna W.
An AA Group
Area 10
______________________________________

TRADITION THREE -- SHORT FORM
(12 and 12 page 139)
"The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."

TRADITION THREE -- LONG FORM
(12 and 12 page 189)
"Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may
refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon
money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety
may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other
affiliation."

BIG BOOK -- FOREWORD TO FIRST EDITION
(Big Book 4th edit. page xiv)
"The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking."

0 -1 0 0
7316 Ryan
Chuck Chamberlain Chuck Chamberlain 4/18/2011 2:39:00 AM

Hello,

I am researching Chuck Chamberlain. I was wondering if anyone could provide me
with any information other than what I have found in this group already.

I know about New Pair of Glasses, various talks, as well as the DVD that Clancy
hands out at the Midnight Mission. The DVD is this talk:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chuck+c+new+pair+of+glasses&aq=f

Other than that, I haven't found any other publications or information about
Chuck. Does anyone know of any, or have any?

I also know that Chuck was an Ordained Minister of Religious Science. I found
the October 1962 issue of Science of Mind Magazine, which has an article
covering the Chamberlains. There is a good amount of information about Chuck's
involvement with Religious Science.

In any event, if anyone has any information that I don't have, I would be VERY
grateful. I am attempting to put together an archive display to show my
sponsees, and to donate to the local District Archives.

Love and Service

0 -1 0 0
7317 John Moore
Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort 4/13/2011 4:20:00 PM

From John Moore and Jackie Bendzinski

- - - -

From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com>
(contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)

Great to know these stories are being kept alive, and thanks to all.

I enjoyed hearing Sybil speak at my home group in the 1970's and think of her
every time we study the Third Tradition and Irma Livoni who was kicked out of AA
in 1941.

I am sure Frank and Cliff and Mort were doing the best they knew how at the
time. Cliff Walker was my sponsor's sponsor.

John M
South Burlington, Vermont
contact.johnmoore@gmail.com

- - - -

From: Jackie Bendzinski <jackiebendzinski@mac.com>
(jackiebendzinski at mac.com)

Hi John

We poke some fun at Frank's heavy-handedness :) The Los Angeles scene is my
favorite in the play and we've expanded it and Cliff's role for our LA
performance.

The second act of "In Our Own Words" is dedicated to the Third Tradition, but
unfortunately it did not work for this play to include Irma's story, though it
is personally one of the most powerful and tragic stories I have heard in AA
history. I'm researching and (slowly) writing a second documentary style play
solely on the history behind each tradition. Irma's story will be in that play.

If you email inourownwords.sanantonio@gmail.com, I can email you a pdf of the
script. I wish you could be there for our Los Angeles show. If anyone knows
Sybil's living sponsees and grand-sponsees in LA, I am very much hoping to get
in contact with them and invite them to the play. The LA archivist, Harvey, and
Sybil's daughter have already been invited. In fact, Sybil's daughter has
seen our recording and was very positive and supportive.

Take care,
Jackie B
San Francisco, California

___________________________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE
Message #7307 from "jaxena77"
<jackiebendzinski@mac.com> (jackiebendzinski at mac.com)

Grapevine Play in Los Angeles

We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own
Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County
for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell
Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph,
Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in
Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the
researching and writing of this documentary style play.

Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only
audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to
anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON!

Forward this message to a friend -
http://oi.vresp.com/f2af/v4/send_to_friend.html?ch=0076d7232a&lid=TEST&ldh=TEST

In Love and Service,
Jackie B.

===============================================
FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS:
http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/
===============================================

IN OUR OWN WORDS:
PIONEERS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

Performing for the first time in Los Angeles County!

A SPECIAL BENEFIT FOR ICYPAA 2011!
Saturday, June 25 at 8 pm
The Lincoln Middle School Theater
1501 California Ave, Santa Monica, CA

Played to standing room only audiences in San Antonio in 2010, In Our Own Words
brings to life the pages of the Big Book, The Grapevine and the recordings of
the pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous. Simply, and with great humor and depth,
the play retells the stories of our founders in New York, Akron, Cleveland and
Los Angeles. Going further into our history, In Our Own Words also shares the
lesser-known struggles of the pioneering members of special composition groups
in the fellowship, including the first women and young people in AA, as well as
early gay, lesbian, African-American and Latino members. Join men and women like
Marty Mann, Sybil Corwin, Cliff Walker, Barry Leach, Joe McQuanny, and many
more, on their search for a solution and acceptance in the rooms. Their stories,
and this play, are not to be missed.

Tickets available soon at www.icypaahost.org

0 -1 0 0
7318 mikey_portz
Re: Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings 4/16/2011 5:10:00 PM

From mikey_portz, gerrynmt, Mike Batty, and Ben Hammond

- - - -

From: "mikey_portz" <mportz2000@yahoo.com>
(mportz2000 at yahoo.com)

1. LOOK AT THE TRADITIONS

Your question is answered in Traditions One and Four. To quote the long form of
Tradition Four, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans
concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be
consulted. And no group .... or individual should ever take any action that
might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the
General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount."

2. IN CASE OF DOUBT, CONTACT THE NEW YORK GSO

For all the questions I have ever sent GSO regarding group actions, their basic
answer always refers me to Traditions 2 and 4. For solving
any questions regarding my home group's actions, policies, guidance,
suggestions, the Traditions, the Concepts, etc., I have found the most prudent
solution to solving these questions, is to email my "Pacific Region"
representative at GSO. She/he replies with a email within a couple of days and
it seems all members of my group, or my sponsees, are satisfied with A.A's GSO's
answer. Everyone trusts GSO's responses and it seems it stops any of the group's
members from being angry or resentful, which sometimes happens when the answer
comes from "a friend of mine with a lot of time," "I was told by a oldtimer," or
"I heard it in a meeting."

- - - -

From: "gerrynmt" <traditionsway@yahoo.com>
(traditionsway at yahoo.com)

"A service sponsee asked me whether there is any literature relating to proxy or
absentee voting at a group conscience meeting."

Page S37 in the AA Service manual indicates that while each group decides for
itself, it is not commonly practiced.

- - - -

From: Mike Batty <mcbat.t@rogers.com>
(mcbat.t at rogers.com)

My observation based on many years of group and district service. Oftentimes a
vote takes place at group level based on a prior meeting's discussion and
suitable discernment period, therefore I see no reason why group members may not
cast their vote in proxy if unable to attend. Similarly a member could stand for
an office of the group the night of nominations and/or voting, be they not
present. I would say in both occasions such notification should be in writing
and delivered by the proxy. I am sure this is keeping with Roberts Rules of
Order which business are best advised to follow taking into consideration the
necessary majorities called for in the AA service manual.

Remember just because it is AA there is no reason to disregard common sense ;)

Mike Batty
Waterloo, Ontario

- - - -

From: Ben Hammond <mlb9292@gmail.com>
(mlb9292 at gmail.com)

I agree with you, must be present to vote. Keep up the good work ...

God Bless,
Old Ben from Tulsa

0 -1 0 0
7319 mikey_portz
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/16/2011 4:50:00 PM

I agree with Chuck P. that the Big Book is "the most definitive book EVER
written on alcoholism." Without question it is also most certainly as literal
as any book I have ever read.

I am not certain why Bill chose to use the words "illness," malady, or
"sickness" instead of disease, but I can give you, as a long time aficionado of
A.A. and Bill Wilson history " an educated guess as to why Bill (or if you
prefer "the authors") were "specifically avoiding that term and for good
reason." The book was being written to "sell" (the word used by the original
35-40 total number of "Oxford Group drunk squad" members who in the late fall of
1937, agreed the Book should be written) to the "millions" of suffering
alcoholics in this country and eventually, the rest of the world. Because of
this, and because they expected the book to be read by thousands of
non-alcoholics as well as many influential members of the medical profession,
they did not want to create any type of controversy (avoidance of controversy
has always been, and still is, something which our society has tried to avoid
with complete abandon) nor offend with who resisted alcoholism being called a
disease.

Most people in the 30's, and deep into the 1970's, did not like to admit or
consider that alcoholism is/might be a disease. It was considered nothing but
weak will power, laziness, lack of morals, etc., etc. The reasons the pioneer
alcoholics wanted the book and the program to "sell" were simply and totally
altruistic. No one, including Bill W, was in it for the money. The primary
reason they wanted it to sell and succeed was to give alkies a "way out, for
which there was none at the time nor in the history of our planet. At least no
way that anyone could consistently count on. If the book was not well received,
A.A. might, quite possibly, ceased to exist.

I would also like to give the definition of "malady" which I will again take
from my 1938 dictionary. It is, "a disease or disorder of body or mind." From
the same dictionary, "illness" is defined simply and solely as "sickness."
Merriam-Webster defines "sickness" as; n. 1 : ill health; also; a specific
disease 2. : NAUSEA. So to me it is what it is and that is that disease,
illness, sickness, and malady are all synonymous. By the way I found the Nausea
definition for sickness to be "right up my alley" as it is exactly how alcohol
affected me towards the end of the evening (or before) on may occasions.

FYI, in the first 164 pages the word "illness" is used 12 times (three on page
18), "malady" 8 times and "sickness" 1 time. The word "Disease" (to the best of
my knowledge) is only used once in the first 164. It can be found on page #64
but its usage is related to "resentments," not the disease of alcoholism. "From
it stem all forms of spiritual disease."

For a more clear as well as precise answer to Chuck's question, as well as any
question regarding the writing of the "Big Book", A.A. History, The
"Traditions," etc., I would like to suggest emailing The GSO office, Archives
Department, in New York to New York. Answering questions for A.A.'s is one of
the primary services that GSO provides and they are some of the nicest and most
accommodating people I've ever run into.

I do have one question for Chuck P., that may help to answer his original
question. It is, why did Bill Wilson Dr. Bob, The American Medical Association,
all of the other pioneering A.A.'s, Dr. Henry Tiebout, Dr. William D. Silkworth,
etc., etc. etc. always refer to alcoholism as a disease. Because these stalwarts
and founders of our program, declarations by the AMA and other A.A. proponents
referred to alcoholism as a disease, is probably the main reason the rest of us
do. And, many of us through research of the disease concept, have come to
believe it as the truth.

Right or wrong, I think for me referring to my alcoholism as a disease,
definitely helps me to understand my malady and help keep me living the steps so
that I can keep my alcoholism in remission. Just like cancer, it will kill me. I
have no problem calling it a disease. If I did, I probably would be a little
less happy, joyous and free.
Kind regards in fellowship

- - - -

"Chuck Parkhurst" ineedpage63@...> wrote:

Why would the authors of the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism
REPEATEDLY refer to the condition we suffer from as an "illness" if they meant
"disease?" In many areas of our book, we see the authors repeatedly use
synonyms and similar phrases to make the same point over and over. However, when
the authors use this same device regarding the alcoholic illness, they do NOT
use disease and prefer a term like malady. I believe that the fact disease is
conspicuous by its absence in similar circumstances confirms that the authors
were specifically avoiding that term and for good reason.

0 -1 0 0
7320 janie100570@comcast.net
First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities 4/17/2011 3:00:00 PM

I am looking for information on the first women to take AA meetings into
(women's) correctional facilities.

Any data any member of the HistoryLovers can provide would be much appreciated.

Thank you -- Jane S L

0 -1 0 0
7321 Chris Budnick
RE: First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities 4/19/2011 9:06:00 AM

I heard a talk by Jack P. where he talked about how he and Wynn L. began taking
meetings into the LA County jail and that it was not looked upon favorably by
other members of AA. This would have been late 1940's or very early 1950's.

There is also documentation of Betty Thom doing a lot of work with jails and
prisons. She corresponded with a many prison based groups
and contributed to their newsletters.

Chris B.
Raleigh, North Carolina

0 -1 0 0
7322 Susan Banker
Re: Chuck Chamberlain Chuck Chamberlain 4/18/2011 6:37:00 PM

From Susan Banker and Jared Lobdell

- - - -

From: Susan Banker in New York City
<sbanker914@aol.com> (sbanker914 at aol.com)

Hello Ryan,

This is one interesting item that I found online:

Chuck C.'s Testimony
Before a U.S. Senate Subcommittee

http://silkworth.net/aahistory/chuckc1969.html

************************************
Re-printed with permission by Nancy Olson,
moderator of The AA History Lovers e-group.
Nancy's book "With a Lot of Help from Our
Friends" is the major study of the passing
of the Hughes Act -- it was the Hughes Act,
NOT Prohibition, which was the most important
piece of alcoholism legislation in 20th
century U.S. history. The Hughes Act
still provides the basis for modern U.S.
alcoholism treatment centers.
************************************

Nancy Olson says: Chuck C., a well-known early AA member in California,
testified before the Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Subcommittee in Los Angeles on
Saturday, September 27, 1969. This is his testimony which I have copied from the
official hearing records:

Present: Senators Hughes, (presiding), Dominick, and Saxbe [members of the
Subcommittee]. Also present: Senators Cranston and Murphy [both Senators from
California].

THEN NANCY GAVE THE TEXT OF CHUCK'S SPEECH
TO THE SENATE SUBCOMMITTEE

Nancy concluded by noting that others have sent the following information on
Chuck C.:

He was born in 1902, and got sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a book
called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which is a transcript of a retreat he gave for
alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written by Clancy I. of California. It can be
purchased through New-Look Publishing Co., 1960 Fairchild, Irvine, CA 92715.

His son [Richard] became a famous actor.

Chuck died in 1984.

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

His son, the actor [George] Richard Chamberlain, is still alive and active at 77
-- perhaps you could talk to him. I don't recall if his autobiography Shattered
Love (2009) has anything on his father.

The well-known AA speaker Johnnie H (Long Beach) has pretty detailed
recollections of Chuck (who indeed came up several times in a conversation we
had at breakfast last month).

0 -1 0 0
7323 WendiT
Charlie of JOE AND CHARLIE passed away last night Charlie of JOE AND CHARLIE passed away last night 4/21/2011 12:24:00 PM

Charlie P.

A man passed away last night that has carried a message to hundreds of thousands
of us all over the world. He was a great messenger, a tireless servant, and a
dear dear friend. He carried the message of the Big Book and keep it alive in a
time when most of our fellowship had lost touch with our basic principles - your
effect has been felt - your footprint has been left - and I thank you Charlie.

Charlie P, along with Joe McQ and in later years Joe McC, traveled the world for
over 35 years starting fires of enthusiasm for our basic text.

-- Bob D.

0 -1 0 0
7324 Glenn Chesnut
Charlie P. funeral Tuesday April 26, 2011 Charlie P. funeral Tuesday April 26, 2011 4/22/2011 3:40:00 PM

Mt Hermon Church
18035 E 420 Rd, Jay, Oklahoma 74346-3500
phone (918) 253-4111

Message #37490 from: "A Change Will Do You Good" Yahoo group
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/achangewilldoyougood/message/37490

Just got a call from Barbara Parmley .... Charlie died last night of a heart
attack. Charlie turned 82 years old on the 8th of April. They lived in
Maysville, Arkansas.

The funeral will be at Mt. Hermon Church in Jay, Oklahoma on Tuesday from 2-4
pm. There will also be a viewing on Monday night.

In lieu of flowers, memorials in his name can be sent to The House of Hope.**

Charlie and Joe McQuany started the Big Book Studies in the early 70's,
traveling the world carrying the AA Big Book Message.

Love and may your God go with you,

Ian S.

______________________________________

From G.C. the moderator: Ian said the House of Hope was in Jay, Oklahoma, and
that they had a website at www.houseofhope.com

I couldn't find that. The closest I could find to that name and location was

http://houseofhopegrove.com/

in Grove, Oklahoma. The three towns (Maysville, Arkansas -- Jay, Oklahoma --
Grove, Oklahoma) are all just a few miles apart.

But I recommend checking though before sending any donations to the one in
Grove, just to make sure it is the right one.

0 -1 0 0
7325 Dolores
Death of Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes Death of Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes 4/21/2011 4:09:00 PM

[From Rob Fuhrman, Dolores, Bent Christensen, Cindy Miller, Stephen Macchia, and
anne marie.]

Charlie Parmley from Maysville, Arkansas, along with Joe McQuany and in later
years Joe McCoy, traveled the world for over 35 years starting fires of
enthusiasm for our basic text.
______________________________

From: Rob Fuhrman <stepnazi@yahoo.com>
(stepnazi at yahoo.com)

Had a heart attack on the way home from a meeting. Carried the message all the
way to the end of his life. True love and service.
______________________________

From: "Dolores" <dolli@dr-rinecker.de>
(dolli at dr-rinecker.de)

Dear Bob, I am so sorry to hear that Charlie has passed away. I met him twice at
Big Book studies in Nurnburg Germany. The first time he was there was in 1989
and Frank Mauser from the GSO Archives was along and Travers from Bristol.
Unforgettable. Charlie and Joe both did such a good job of making clear how
important it is to get the message from the Big Book. Thanks for letting me and
us know.

Yours in AA, Dolores
______________________________

From: "bent_christensen5" <bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>
(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

God bless his soul and let us all keep caring the message in the same spirit as
they did. Charlie changed my life and I 'm very grateful for the work he and Joe
did for AA.

If you hear anything regarding funeral or memorial, please let me know. We are
not that well informed here in Denmark.

Bent Christensen
Valmuevej 17
6000 Kolding
Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43
www.synlighjemmeside.dk
______________________________

From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>
(cm53 at earthlink.net)

I am absolutely stunned and saddened. Charlie seems like an old friend
who comes to my home every Friday night when I gather with a bunch of
newcomers, and we listen to the "Joe & Charlie" seminars. There is a meeting
near here that uses these tapes in their format -- kind of like an AA Speaker.
Another speaker/chairperson for that Big Meeting in the Sky ....

:-( Cindy Miller
______________________________

From: Stephen Macchia <joe_zip@sbcglobal.net>
(joe_zip at sbcglobal.net)

I got sober in a Joe and Charlie study nearly 25 years ago, and we are still
listening to the original set of tapes. To say they helped me to get sober would
be to understate the case. They will both now be missed, but they still carry
the message, at least they will on Monday nights in Southern California.

-- Steve
______________________________

From: "anne marie" <tim1leg@yahoo.com>
(tim1leg at yahoo.com)

Thank you, for letting us know.

0 -1 0 0
7326 Sherry C. Hartsell
Personal memories of Charlie P. Personal memories of Charlie P. 4/22/2011 12:16:00 AM

Wonderful memories of a close AA relationship in both our young Service yrs in
Arkansas ---- personal sadness at his loss, sad for his family and the
fellowship, Charley P and Wayne P were all officers in the Arkansas Assembly
together, that Assembly became my Home Group for all intents and purposes even
though I had a wonderful HOME AA Group in Magnolia, Ark, where I was privileged
to operate from into the State AREA (We had only ONE AREA and it was called the
Arkansas State Assembly --- we caught some flack from our neighbors in NETA
until they came to understand that Ark was not in need of division into multiple
AREAS as was our neighbor Texas.

Charley P. and Wayne P. shared the same Sponsor, Neil, who had been a Delegate
and was intent upon his sponsees being exposed to the fullness of AA Service; we
each served our terms on most of the Standing Committees and Offices within the
Assembly --- were hauled to or encouraged to attend any Service function within
a 3-4 State Area---and we mostly did attend/participate where appropriate most
all he encouraged us to attend.

I was the Assembly Chair for two terms and was responsible for researching and
with another member from Ft Smith who could type really well, responsible for
putting together the first set of "Policies and Procedures" for The Arkansas
Assembly. Shortly thereafter I was tasked with inviting David A. of Dallas to
come up to Little Rock and present a talk on the "Legacies" --- David stayed
over the week-end, I had a Brand-New 9 passenger Chevrolet Station Wagon that
got drafted into service to and from meetings, hotel, and restaurants ---- we
had a blast and it was the beginning of some long lasting relationships in A.A.

David got hold of our new Policies & Procedures, was impressed, said NETA was
trying to come up with P&P for their Area, could he borrow a set of the Ark P&P
to take back and use as a pattern for developing a set for NETA. Of course we
loaned them to him and he latter shared with me that our document was only
amended to fit their local circumstances ------ which is what I had mostly done
by traveling to and getting P&P from Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Louisiana, then
taking ideas from each and making that document fit our situation in
Arkansas.

In 1986 or 7, I was buying oil & gas Leases in North Dakota with a sponsee from
Tyler, Texas named TOM, well, Tom had been tasked to get me to invite the
Speakers for that years TYLER ANNIVERSARY --- I called Jim from The Glass House
Group in Ft Worth, then Joe McQ in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Joe McQ at first refused by saying quite frankly, "SHERRY! I can't come speak in
Tyler, Texas. Them folks got the KLAN in Tyler!", and he was indeed serious. So,
from North Dakota, I called my wife Beverly back in Arkansas and told her she
must call Joe's wife, Lou Belle, and convince her to convince Joe, to promise
that we would drive down with them and stay in the same hotel, share a room if
she would feel better about it. I called Joe back, he agreed under the condition
that I ask Charley P to come and introduce him, and that he could bring "some of
his boys" from the treatment center he ran in Little Rock.

The Tyler Committee for the most part were unaware that Joe McQ was a black man,
I believe it was his first experience speaking outside the State of Arkansas.
There were perhaps 1500 at that Anniversary most of whom had never heard of Joe
McQ or Charley P. The results were that within a yr of that talk, Joe McQ was
booked up solid FIVE YEARS in advance and within a short time after that, "Joe &
Charley Big Book Talks" were spread literally world-wide.

Charley P was my friend, my brother in the Fellowship and in It's Service --- I
am so grateful God placed Charley P, Wayne P., AND Joe McQ in my path, my
sobriety is better for having had that association.

Sherry C.H.

0 -1 0 0
7327 hdmozart
Charlie P -- full details of funeral arrangements Charlie P -- full details of funeral arrangements 4/22/2011 5:31:00 PM

From the Worley-Luginbuel Funeral Home - Jay, Oklahoma

General Information
Full Name: Charles A Parmley
Date of Birth: Friday April 8th 1921
Date of Death: Thursday April 21st 2011

First Visitation
When: Monday April 25th 2011 6:00pm - 8:00pm
Location: Worley-Luginbuel Funeral Home - Jay
1600 S Main St
Jay, Oklahoma

Service Information
When: Tuesday April 26th 2011 2:00pm
Location: Mt. Hermon Church
68035 E 420 Rd
Jay, Oklahoma

Interment Information
Location: Maysville Cemetery
Hwy 43
Maysville, Arkansas

Donations in lieu of flowers to be sent in Memory of Charlie Parmley to:
House of Hope Inc, PO Box 451585 Grove, OK 74345
918-786-2930
Or donations may be made online at: http://houseofhopegrove.com


Obituary and more information:
http://luginbuelfuneralhome.frontrunnerpro.com/runtime/3060/runtime.php?SiteId=3\
060&NavigatorId=54126&viewOpt=dpaneOnly&ItemId=723627&op=tributeMemorialCandles


0 -1 0 0
7328 Charles Knapp
Memorial book for Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes Memorial book for Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes 4/22/2011 4:52:00 PM

Doug B at AAHISTORY.COM has set up a memorial book for Charlie P if anyone would
like to leave their thoughts and prayers. Here is a link:

http://www.aahistory.com/charliep/sign.php

Being a poor reader, Joe and Charlie helped me understand what I was reading in
a way that no one else could. I honestly do not think I would be where I am in
my recovery without them.

Miss you Charlie

Charles from Wisconsin

0 -1 0 0
7329 DouglasBlackburn@bellsouth.net
Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes 4/23/2011 4:20:00 PM

Is Joe McCoy still alive?

0 -1 0 0
7331 DONALD BENNITT
Joe McC is alive and well Joe McC is alive and well 4/23/2011 11:52:00 PM

Joe McCoy of the Joe and Charlie tapes is alive and well.

(from Don Bennitt and Jim Hoffman)

- - - -

From: DONALD BENNITT <dbennitt@sbcglobal.net>
(dbennitt at sbcglobal.net)

I talked with Joe Mc on Thursday. It is Joe Mc Q -- the other Joe -- that has
passed.

Don

- - - -

From: "Jim Hoffman" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>
(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

The statement that Joe McCoy is also dead is totally incorrect information. Joe
McCoy was alive and well on Wednesday April 20, 2011.

________________________________

From: Aldo <openboth@yahoo.com> Sent: April 23, 2011
Subject: Re: Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes

Sadly, Joe Mc has passed away also.

0 -1 0 0
7332 RacewayJay
We need a good history of Charlie and the two Joes We need a good history of Charlie and the two Joes 4/23/2011 5:20:00 PM

When did Charlie get sober? What about the two Joes? When did they get sober? Is
there any good history on them already written?

If not, would someone be willing to write a good, detailed historical account?

0 -1 0 0
7333 Patricia
Joe McQ of the Joe and Charlie tapes Joe McQ of the Joe and Charlie tapes 4/23/2011 5:37:00 PM

Joe McQuany died October 25, 2007

(from pdixonrae, Charley Bill, and Dave T.)

- - - -

From Patricia <pdixonrae@yahoo.com>
(pdixonrae at yahoo.com)

Charlie's partner Joe McQuany died in October 2007. The following was his
funeral announcemnt.

Patricia

- - - -

FUNERAL ANNOUNCEMENT

Joe McQuany (November 16, 1928 - October 25, 2007)

From the Kelly Foundation website:
http://www.kellyfdn.com/condolences_in_memory_of_joe_mcq.htm

Wake and Viewing: Wednesday October 31,
9 A.M. - 9 P.M., at the Wolfe Street Center,
1210 Wolfe Street, Little Rock, AR 72202
Phone (501) 372-5662
http://www.wolfestreet.org/
Family Visitation: Wednesday October 31 at the
Wolfe Street Center 6 P.M. - 7 P.M.

The Funeral will be held on Thursday November
1, 2007 - 11 A.M. - Pulaski Heights United
Methodist Church, 4823 Woodlawn Avenue,
Little Rock, Arkansas 72205
http://www.phumc.com/where.htm

- - - -

From: Charley Bill <charley92845@gmail.com>
(charley92845 at gmail.com)

The original Joe went by the name of Joe McQ and was the founder and proprietor
of a very large rehab in Little Rock. He died October 25, 2007. Here is a
photo, a very good one as I remember Joe from 10 years ago. Here's a link to his
memorial page:

http://www.aahistory.com/joemcq/sign.php

- - - -

Also from: Dave T. in Connecticut
<bluefox@dublin.com>
(bluefox at dublin.com)

0 -1 0 0
7334 Paul
Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity 4/17/2011 12:56:00 AM

Since I've read everything (I think) "AA history" that sold over 10K
copies, I think, and even a few that sold less, I'm on page 1 (first of the text
proper - page 6) of Robert Stonebraker's book, "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study
of Synchronic Events."

CARL JUNG: SPIRITUAL vs. RELIGIOUS

A question (now scanning a few pages ahead) pertains to the figure
containing Carl Jung's use of the expression(s) "real religious insight" and
"highest religious experience" interchangeably, it would appear, with the sort
of event or experience (or "education/evolution"), spiritual in nature, that the
vexed alcoholic might/must seek. Subsequently, on that page of text, you cite:

"Since Rowland was a typical alcoholic, however, it took him seven more years
of denial and misery -- as he continued to refuse to take Jung's prescription
seriously -- before he met Courtenay Baylor from the Emmanuel Movement and began
seeking a spiritual solution for his alcoholism.." adding that, "Jung ended
up telling Rowland that he had never seen alcoholics of his type recover until
they became willing to commit themselves to the spiritual life." We also have
"You recommended that he place himself in a religious atmosphere and hope for
the best. This I believe was the substance of your advice," in the letter from
Bill W. for Jung.

Those familiar with AA history likely regard the spiritual VS religious
"discrepancy" as old hat, or splitting hairs, or both. "Resign from the debating
society" is a common invective. The irony, if there is any, is the veritable
insistence, or zeal, that "I'm spiritual but not religious," about which many
AA's are adamant. Since noted physicist Wolfgang Pauli collaborated with Jung,
it (spiritual VS religious) may just be an example of the "Principle of
Complimentarity," whereby when "looking" for the wave-like features of
electromagnetic radiation (visible light for instance) or the particle-like
features (photons), science detects either - but never both simultaneously.

Anyhow, historically speaking - if that's the terminology - at some point in
history it doesn't seem to have mattered much, unless "organized religion" is
connoted to mean "religion."

That might not mean anything. Except for the fact that Jung's causal principle
may be in question, especially if (his own) "verification technique" or
"evidence" has much to do.

CARL JUNG: SYNCHRONICITY

Regarding Synchronicity — An Acausal Connecting Principle (which I confess to
reading about 60 pages of at Barnes & Noble roughly a decade ago) wikipedia.org
portends that it "was a principle that Jung felt gave conclusive evidence for
his concepts of archetypes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes>
and the collective unconscious
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious> ".

Enter Richard Noll.

Again, from wikipedia: "In 1994 he [Noll] received an award for Best
Book in Psychology from the Association of American Publishers
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Publishers> for
his book, The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement. The
resulting controversy over the book made front-page headlines worldwide,
including a front-page report in the 3 June 1995 issue of The New York Times
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times> . Princeton University Press
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University_Press> submitted The Jung
Cult to the Pulitzer Prize <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulitzer_Prize>
competition that year, without success. Although not a definitivetreatment of
Jung, the book acted as a climacteric, effectively changing the agenda of
scholarly debate in Jung studies for the more than a decade that has followed
its publication" [Bold added.]

I read Noll's book(s) more carefully. Among other things, what the former
Harvard Professor has effectively done is made a conclusive case that Jung's
clinical "evidence" for archetypes en toto was essentially flubbed, and if that
weren't enough, that Jung's later book(s) intentionally disguised/suppressed the
fairly blatant fudge factors. It's that simple.

No one, to my knowledge, has proven, or even attempted to prove Noll's scholarly
research "wrong." The Jung estate essentially "closed the vaults" to further
research as a result. Their subsequent publication of Jung's Red Book seems to
have been a red herring. The 400 pound gorilla hasn't moved an inch: Noll has
apparently already let every bit of the cat out of the bag. I'm not saying that
Jung was a liar. Noll "exposes" Jung, in many respects, to the best of his (or
anyone's?) "historical ability" for what he was as a charismatic and expresses
his admiration for Jung's unique genius.

I honestly have no idea of the validity of synchronicity. I strongly
suspect there's something inherent in the human imagination that
predisposes us towards these types of theories. There's the old "nothing happens
by accident" or "I don't believe in coincidences" axiom(s).

What is really synchronous? comes to mind.

I don't think Bill W. gave Carl Jung a tip of his hat out of
coincidence. I don't think JD Rockefeller paid Bill Wilson's salary (at least
for a time) purely out of coincidence. I don't think Bill and Lois Wilson were
married in the Swedenborg Church purely out of coincidence. I don't think Aldous
Huxley called Bill Wilson "The greatest social architect of our time" purely out
of coincidence; maybe I don't believe in coincidences, either. Wilson appears to
have been extremely ingenious and resourceful and especially driven in the goal,
his goal, of attaining permanent sobriety.

I think it would be worth considering the synchronous nature of the
spiritual milieu (means religious atmosphere) circa 1925 - or even 1921 because
of the end of the war - 1935 - and perhaps up to about 1941.

Just like I haven't any strong "pro" or "contra" feeling towards AA (on an
individual basis) I haven't any towards Jung's synchronicity. "To each his own,"
or "attraction rather than promotion," suits me fine, and it would appear the AA
"concept" (fellowship) has helped many, and the synchronicity concept may have
as well. My own personal opinion is that any serious student of AA (or rather
more precisely Bill W.) "history" (since I'm no historian) might go back so far
as Madame Blavatsky or even Emanuel Swedenborg and Böhme. About all that
survives in common parlance is the "bohemian lifestyle" that Bill and Lois were
so fond of in their married youth. I think the Bill W. biographers call it "a
rustic or nomadic lifestyle."

Put differently: as we already know, Bill Wilson said, "I've always considered
myself a shopper at the spiritual pie counter." (Grapevine, LOH, or Ernie Kurtz,
I can't recall.) For sure Carl Jung was baking some very serious cakes; a whole
generation were eating them up like candy, and a whole new generation still
would, maybe even more so.

Having taken the time to examine the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 book (booklet)
and considering its concept, I admire the courage to compose it. Therefore I
find it interesting. Having glanced at them, what I'd like now is a premise to
read the remaining 27 pages, carefully, as I haven't, rather than simply
scanning them to discover an (alternative) premise. That would be work. My
question, then, to it's author, may be blunt, and I hope that there's no
disrespect on my part: why the exemption of the term "religious?" I don't
consider the question "pointed" or "probative," but I won't accept the pat
answer(s) "we have no leaders" (as religions do) because "our leaders are but
trusted servants," or, "AA hasn't any anathema to religion" beings "many of us
return to the religions of our youth," because the language is what I'm asking
about. Aside from that, J. Gordon Melton has remarked that "AA may be the only
successful example of pure anarchy yet in existence."

wikipedia.org: J. Gordon Melton of the University of California, Santa
Barbara, Distinguished Senior Fellow at Baylor University
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baylor_University> 's Institute for
Studies of Religion [who has appeared on national TV]. His Encyclopedia of
American Religions, which was originally published in 1978, has become a
standard work of reference that outstrips the number of groups that Clark was
able to identify and classify in the 1940s.)

No matter Stonebraker - congratulations on your diligence, and I applaud the
obvious considerable effort. "Mapping the territory" is important.

Best,

Paul

0 -1 0 0
7335 Dougbert
Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics 4/15/2011 6:16:00 PM

From Dougbert and Bailey, plus Gerard vs. Amelia

- - - -

From: Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com>
(dougbert8 at yahoo.com)

Can anybody give me a list of the stories in the Grapevine written by atheists?
We need to share the message if we are to perform our 12 step work.

I am a godless alcoholic. I believe I can do my best service to the fellowship
by letting newcomers know that you CAN get and stay sober without GOD. This is
my 12 step calling. All the information from GSO will not save lives if the only
messages that are allowed through are those from one or another narrow doctrinal
religious perspective.

How many newcomers leave the rooms because they are not God worshipers?
 
In fellowship,
Doug

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Bill W said there was freedom of thought and action in AA. Why are we trying to
destroy freedom of thought and action? The conference has no authority to order
the groups around. As funny as it may sound now, The eleventh step prayer in AA
comes of age, says, "For it is by self forgetting that one finds." I do not
think what groups think about spirituality has anything to do with spirituality.

- - - -

From: "Gerard" <GRault@yahoo.com> (GRault at yahoo.com)

This thought, quoted from Amelia's message below,***

"This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of
our fundamental beliefs. IT IMPLIES THAT AGNOSTICS AND ATHEISTS CAN, WITHOUT
SPIRITUALITY OR THE STEPS, BE SUCCESSFULLY SOBER."

-- this thought seems to me to be clearly erroneous.

It takes as an implicit given that there can be no spirituality without a belief
in the existence of "God," a proposition that would astonish much of the world's
population -- Buddhists, for example.

It further assumes that to work the steps requires a belief in the existence of
THE WRITER'S traditionalist concept of "God." On the contrary, the beauty of
the phrase "as we understood Him" (the only italicized words in the steps) is
that each of us can interpret the Power in accord with our own beliefs. Many
believe that the traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and
understand that the word is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and
unknown Power which is the source of all that exists, especially love, beauty,
truth, justice, compassion and similar qualities. Who can rightly presume to
tell them that that "understanding" of "God" is officially incorrect in A.A.?

Love and tolerance,

Gerry
New Orleans, Louisiana
Hua Hin, Thailand

____________________________________________

*** Original message #7314 from Amelia
<intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at earthlink.net)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7314

Rick, I enjoyed your email and wanted to follow up with my current thinking on
the conference. Your thoughts were very helpful ....

Last year the 60th Conference approved a motion to: "develop literature which
focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who
are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous" ....

This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of
our fundamental beliefs. It implies that agnostics and atheists can, without
spirituality or the steps, be successfully sober ....

AA was founded and is maintained by a set of principles for the individual and
the organization that are spiritual in nature. This spirituality requires that
each person determine the nature of this spiritual power, greater than herself
or himself, through his or her own direct knowledge of that power. This direct
experience can be described in a myriad of terms including the power, wisdom,
miracles and/or love in the rooms of AA (see The Best of Bill, p. 2) ....

0 -1 0 0
7336 Charley Bill
Re: Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form 4/22/2011 3:50:00 AM

Joanna,

The same guy wrote both the long and the short forms. If this is true, the
author must have felt the short was a proper representation of the long.

This author also put them in the 12 and 12, which has some words on why we have
a short form.

T