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7090 ckbudnick
Document called: Why Do The Steps Work? Document called: Why Do The Steps Work? 1/3/2011 1:14:00 PM


Is anyone familiar with the origin of a document titled "Why Do The Steps Work?"



The document includes:



How did the 12 step program originate?

Dr. William D. Silkworth

Dr. Carl Jung

Frank Buchman

Ebby's Meeting With Bill

Bill's Last Treatment: Spiritual Experience and Williams James

Bill's Early Recovery And Meeting With Dr. Bob

Refinement Of The Program Of Action

What Are The Spiritual Principles Of The 12 Steps?

Recapping The Problem And The Solution

How Can A 12 Step Program Work For A Non-Religious Person?

Changing Our Ideas, Attitudes And Behavior



Thanks,



Chris B.

Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
7091 john wikelius
Out of print pamphlets Out of print pamphlets 12/31/2010 5:29:00 PM


I am looking at a 11/63 aaws catalog of literature and wanted to know if anyone

has pictures of



P-13 Fortune Reprint

P-14 Good Housekeeping Reprint

P-26 Corrections Officials Evaluate A.A.

P-27 Hospital Administratore Evaluate A. A.

P-28 Patterns of A. A. Cooperation with Hospitals

P-29 Cooperation but Not affiliation

P-30 The Fellowship of A. A.

P-31 A. A. - Helpful Ally in Coping with Alcoholism

P-32 Basic Fact File

P-33 Background Editorial Material

P-34 Background Radio-TV Material

P-35 Public Information Kit

 

Contact me at:  justjohn1431946@yahoo.com

(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)



Thank you and best to all in the New Year 2011.



John Wikelius

Enterprise, Alabama


0 -1 0 0
7092 Tom Hickcox
Re: AA in Pakistan AA in Pakistan 12/29/2010 5:26:00 PM


Article in the Guardian: "Alcoholism booms in 'dry' Pakistan"



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/27/alcoholism-boom-pakistan?INTCMP=SRCH



Tommy


0 -1 0 0
7093 Arun Shelar
Re: AA in Pakistan AA in Pakistan 12/31/2010 7:24:00 AM


Please visit following site or contact on tel no. so that you can get the

information locally.



For A A in Pakistan http://www.aapakistan.yolasite.com 



Contact number is 0303-2899006 and contact person is Bilal L.



with love,

Arun


0 -1 0 0
7094 rajiv
AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? 12/30/2010 4:36:00 AM


I have read much of the history of how the AA groups started in other cities

after the Big Book was published. And it seems that the members who started AA

in other cities had first been helped through the Steps by one of 100 founding

members or by some alcoholic whom they had helped.



I would like to know if there is any record of alcoholics, who had recovered by

merely following the directions from the Big Book, without any contact with

recovered alcoholics from other cities, starting AA in their cities.



Thanks.



Rajiv


0 -1 0 0
7095 schaberg43
Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book 12/30/2010 11:59:00 AM


Many changes in Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend"



I hesitate to contradict Jared - he is a true and reliable wellspring of

information both important and arcane and perhaps the most scrupulous researcher

within our fold - but there were some extensive edits done to Fitz M's story

"Our Southern Friend" when it was reprinted in the second edition (and then

preserved in the third and fourth editions).



For instance, the first three paragraphs that appear in this story in the first

edition have been deleted, along with other deletions and additions throughout.



During a recent visit to the Stepping Stones archive we were able to see even

earlier versions of this story that are preserved there, containing some

interesting variations from the one published in the first edition.



Old Bill



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> wrote:

>

> And btw the one (other than Bob's and Bill's) retained unedited was Fitz M.,

"Our Southern Friend" -- in all four editions. Arch T's "The Man Who Mastered

Fear" (edited and retitled) is the only other 1st edition story still in the 4th

edition.

>


0 -1 0 0
7096 khemex@comcast.net
RE: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? 12/30/2010 7:01:00 PM


There is a masterful history of the Washingtonian movement by Milton Maxwell

(past Chairman of the Alcoholic Foundation). It's about 80 pages as I recall, so

it's probably too big to post to WIKI. That's the source that I use to find data

on the movement pre 1935.



Gerry Winkelman



___________________________________________



----- Original Message -----

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:22:57 PM

Subject: RE: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the

Washingtonians?



The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders

are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It

doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite.


0 -1 0 0
7097 Charles Knapp
Re: Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses 12/24/2010 9:17:00 PM


From Charles Knapp, Alex H., planternva,

aalogsdon, Mike F., and jhoffma6



- - - -



From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>

(cpknapp at yahoo.com)



Hey Group,



The 1st printing of "A New Pair of Glasses" came out in May 1984. I have a 2nd

printing and it came out Sept 1984.



Charles Anxon Chamberlain was born in Lawrencepost, Indiana, Aug 3, 1903. He

married Elsa Winnifred Matthews in 1926 in LA (married 58 years). They had 2

boys: William H Chamberlain in 1927 and George Richard Chamberlain in 1934.

Chuck C. died in Laguna Beach, California on Dec 14, 1984. His date of sobriety

was January ?, 1946 (sober 38 years).



So the book was out at least 7 months before Chuck died.



In one of his talks, I have heard Clancy say that Chuck did know about this

book, but cannot remember what Clancy said his reaction to it was. Will see if I

can locate this tape and post some additional information.



Hope this helps,



Charles from Wisconsin



- - - -



From: Alex H <jewishbridge@gmail.com>

(jewishbridge at gmail.com)



According to the Forward in the book "A New Pair of Glasses" (in front

of me at the moment) it says that Chuck C. and his wife Elma helped Lee T. to

pick out and arrange the tapes from the Pala Mesa Retreat and turn them into

book form. Exactly how much work that was I have no idea but what is implied is

that Lee T. had Chuck and Elma's permission and the words were Chuck's.



[I am a past member of the Ohio Street meetings and though I cannot say I knew

Chuck, he saved my life by close proxy nevertheless. I believe that with all my

heart.]



Shabbat Shalom,

Alex H.



- - - -



From: "planternva2000" <planternva2000@yahoo.com>

(planternva2000 at yahoo.com)



As to whether Chuck C. would have approved of "A New Pair of Glasses" being

printed, we have this from page xiii:



"This man, Chuck C., is the first human being I have ever met who truly has

something I want. I want what he has. I once asked him which of the hundreds of

tapes that have been recorded of his talks over the years best represented his

thinking. he did not hesitate when he replied that the talks he gave at the Pala

Mesa Retreat, a gathering of fellow alcoholic men in 1975, included just about

all his thoughts on the program of alcoholics Anonymous and the Program of Life.



"With the help of Chuck C. and his wife, Elsa, we have put these tapes into

writing so that the countless number of people that Chuck has touched and will

touch in the future may have a volume to pick up and gain comfort from."



Jim S.



- - - -



From: Aalogsdon <aalogsdon@aol.com>

(aalogsdon at aol.com)



Sorry ... my copy of the first printing is buried at the moment but I have a

copy signed by Chuck C. From memory I believe he died in December 1984 some

months after the book came out. Howard P. of Arizona also has a signed copy that

I once owned.



As to how it was written, see the book THE WHEEL AND I by John Crene for

details.



- - - -



From GC the moderator: is this the book listed in Amazon as authored by John

Crean, The Wheel and I: Driving Fleetwood Enterprises to the Top (Self-Published

in Newport Beach, CA: Author's Limited Preview Edition, 2000)? Or is this a

different book?

http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Crean-Driving-Fleetwood-Enterprises/dp/0970094507



- - - -



From: "azmikefitz" <azmikefitz@yahoo.com>

(azmikefitz at yahoo.com)



John,



The book A New Pair of Glasses was first published in a limited printing in May

1984 -- the second printing was September 1984. Chuck was still living and he

died in December of that same year.



He was aware of the book and it was done with his permission. The book was

financed by his close friend John C.



Chuck was asked prior to publication if he wanted anything changed and I've been

told he said "If I said it - it can stay". So nothing was changed in the

transcription.



I know of five signed copies of the first limited printing but have never seen a

signed copy of the second printing.



Mike F



- - - -



From: "momaria33772" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>

(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)



According to the book, Chuck and Elsa were very helpful in putting the tapes of

the 1975 retreat into written form. The kook was copyright by Chuck C., 1st

published May 1984. Chuck passed on December 14, 1984. There is also a recording

of the Memorial Service later in the month.



_______________________________________________



Original message 7075

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7075

from John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com>

(contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)



Chuck C., A New Pair of Glasses



Chuck C. did not write this or any other book, by the way. He never saw "A New

Pair of Glasses" and I wonder sometimes if he would have approved of it being

printed. The book is a transcript of sessions of an annual retreat at Palo Mesa

California. I think Chuck went every year, or he put it on every year ... my

recollection. I have the cassette tape copies of this retreat which was recorded

in 1975. The book came out in 1984 after his death.



My question is, was this a work in process while Chuck was still alive, and did

he know of it? Maybe someone knows...?



John M

Burlington, Vermont

12-07-1971


0 -1 0 0
7098 Jim M
1st edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit 1st edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit 1/4/2011 12:47:00 AM


Compare this 1st edition to the 2nd edition that follows in the next

post



Our Southern Friend



TWO rosy-cheeked children stand at the top of a long hill as the

glow of the winter sunset lights up the snow covered country-side. "It's

time to go home" says my sister. She is the eldest. After one more

exhilarating trip on the sled, we plod homeward through the deep snow.

The light from an oil lamp shines from an upstairs window of our home.

We stamp the snow from our boots and rush in to the warmth of the coal

stove which is supposed to heat upstairs as well. "Hello dearies," calls

Mother from above, "get your wet things off."

"Where's Father?" I ask, having gotten a whiff of sausage cooking

through the kitchen door and thinking of supper.

"He went down to the swamp," replies Mother. "He should be home

soon."

Father is an Episcopal minister and his work takes him over long drives

on bad roads. His parishioners are limited in number, but his friends

are many, for to him race, creed, or social position make no difference.

It is not long before he drives up in the old buggy. Both he and old

Maud are glad to get home. The drive was long and cold but he was

thankful for the hot bricks which some thoughtful person had given him

for his feet. Soon supper is on the table. Father says grace,



p.226



------------------------------------------



which delays my attack on the buckwheat cakes and sausage. What an

appetite!

A big setter lies asleep near the stove. He begins to make queer

sounds and his feet twitch. What is he after in his dreams? More cakes

and sausage. At last I am filled. Father goes to his study to write some

letters. Mother plays the piano and we sing. Father finishes his letters

and we all join in several exciting games of parchesi. Then Father is

persuaded to read aloud some more of "The Rose and the Ring."

Bed-time comes. I climb to my room in the attic. It is cold so

there is no delay. I crawl under a pile of blankets and blow out the

candle. The wind is rising and howls around the house. But I am safe and

warm. I fall into a dreamless sleep.



I am in church. Father is delivering his sermon. A wasp is

crawling up the back of the lady in front of me. I wonder if it will

reach her neck. Shucks! It has flown away. Ho, hum, maybe the

watermelons are ripe in Mr. Jones patch. That's an idea! Benny will

know, but Mr. Jones will not know what happened to some of them, if they

are. At last! The message has been delivered.

"Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good

works-." I hunt for my nickel to drop in the plate so that mine will be

seen.

Father comes forward in the chancel of the church. "The peace of

God which passes all understanding, keep your hearts and minds-."

Hurray! Just a hymn and then church will be over until next week!



p.227



------------------------------------------



I am in another fellow's room at college. "Freshman," said he to

me, "do you ever take a drink?" I hesitated. Father had never directly

spoken to me about drinking and he never drank any, so far as I knew.

Mother hated liquor and feared a drunken man. Her brother had been a

drinker and had died in a state hospital for the insane. But his life

was unmentionable, so far as I was concerned. I had never had a drink

but I had seen enough merriment in the boys who were drinking to be

interested. I would never be like the village drunkard at home. How a

lot of people despised him! Just a weakling!

"Well," said the older boy, "Do you?"

"Once in a while," I lied. I could not let him think I was a

sissy.

He poured out two drinks. "Here's looking at you," said he. I

gulped it down and choked. I didn't like it, but I would not say so. No,

never! A mellow glow stole over me. Say! This wasn't so bad after all.

In fact, it was darn good. Sure I'd have another. The glow increased.

Other boys came in. My tongue loosened. Everyone laughed loudly. I was

witty. I had no inferiorities. Why, I wasn't even ashamed of my skinny

legs! This was the real thing!

A haze filled the room. The electric light began to move. Then two

bulbs appeared. The faces of the other boys grew dim. How sick I felt. I

staggered to the bathroom-. Shouldn't have drunk so much or so fast. But

I knew how to handle it now. I'd drink like a gentleman after this.

And so I met John Barleycorn. The grand fellow



p.228



------------------------------------------



who at my call made me "a hale fellow, well met," who gave me such a

fine voice, as we sang "Hail, hail, the gang's all here," and "Sweet

Adeline," who gave me freedom from fear and feelings of inferiority.

Good old John! He was my pal, all right.



Final exams of my senior year and I may somehow graduate. I would

never have tried, but Mother counts on it so. A case of measles saved me

from being kicked out during my Sophomore year. Bells, bells, bells!

Class, library, laboratory! Am I tired!

But the end is in sight. My last exam and an easy one. I gaze at

the board with its questions. Can't remember the answer to the first.

I'll try the second. No soap there. Say this is getting serious! I don't

seem to remember anything. I concentrate on one of the questions. I

don't seem to be able to keep my mind on what I am doing. I get uneasy.

If I don't get started soon, I won't have time to finish. No use. I

can't think.

Oh! An idea! I leave the room, which the honor system allows. I go

to my room. I pour out half a tumbler of grain alcohol and fill it with

ginger ale. Oh, boy! Now back to the exam. My pen moves rapidly. I know

enough of the answers to get by. Good old John Barleycorn! He can

certainly be depended on. What a wonderful power he has over the mind!

He has given me my diploma!



Underweight! How I hate that word. Three attempts to enlist in the

service, and three failures because of being skinny. True, I have

recently recovered from



p.229



------------------------------------------



pneumonia and have an alibi, but my friends are in the war, or going,

and I am not. To hell with it all! I visit a friend who is awaiting

orders. The atmosphere of "eat, drink, and be merry" prevails and I

absorb it. I drink a lot every night. I can hold a lot now, more than

the others.

I am examined for the draft and pass the physical exam. What a

dirty deal! Drafted! The shame of it. I am to go to camp on November

13th. The Armistice is signed on the 11th and the draft is called off.

Never in the service! The war leaves me with a pair of blankets, a

toilet kit, a sweater knit by my sister, and a still greater

inferiority.



It is ten o'clock of a Saturday night. I am working hard on the

books of a subsidiary company of a large corporation. I have had

experience in selling, collecting, and accounting, and am on my way up

the ladder.

Then the crack-up. Cotton struck the skids and collections went

cold. A twenty three million dollar surplus wiped out. Offices closed up

and workers discharged. I, and the books of my division have been

transferred to the head office. I have no assistance and am working

nights, Saturdays and Sundays. My salary has been cut. My wife and new

baby are fortunately staying with relatives, What a life! I feel

exhausted. The doctor has told me that if I don't give up inside work,

I'll have tuberculosis. But what am I to do? I have a family to support

and have no time to be looking for another job.



p.230



------------------------------------------



Oh, well. I reach for the bottle which I just got from George, the

elevator boy.



I am a traveling salesman. The day is over and business has been

not so good. I'll go to bed. I wish I were home with the family and not

in this dingy hotel.

Well-well-look who's here! Good old Charlie! It's great to see

him. How's the boy? A drink? You bet your life! We buy a gallon of

"corn" because it is so cheap. Yet I am fairly steady when I go to bed.

Morning comes. I feel horribly. A little drink will put me on my

feet. But it takes others to keep me there.

I see some prospects. I am too miserable to care if they give me

an order or not. My breath would knock out a mule, I learn from a

friend. Back at the hotel and more to drink. I come to early in the

morning. My mind is fairly clear, but inwardly I am undergoing torture.

My nerves are screaming in agony. I go to the drug store and it is not

open. I wait. Minutes are interminable. Will the store never open? At

last! I hurry in. The druggist fixes me up a bromide. I go back to the

hotel and lie down. I wait. I am going crazy. The bromides have no

effect. I get a doctor. He gives me a hypodermic. Blessed peace!

And I blame this experience on the quality of the liquor.



I am a real estate salesman. "What is the price of that house," I

ask the head of the firm I work for. He names me a price. Then he says,

"That is what the builders



p.231



------------------------------------------



are asking, but we will add on $500.00 and split it, if you can close

the deal." The prospect signs the contract for the full amount. My boss

buys the property and sells to the prospect. I get my commission and

$250.00 extra and everything is Jake. But is it? Something is sour. So

let's have a drink!

I become a teacher in a boy's school. I am happy in my work. I

like the boys and we have lots of fun, in class and out.

An unhappy mother comes to me about her boy, for she knows I am

fond of him. They expected him to get high marks and he has not the

ability to do it. So he altered his report card through fear of his

father. And his dishonesty has been discovered. Why are there so many

foolish parents, and why is there so much unhappiness in these homes?

The doctors bills are heavy and the bank account is low. My wife's

parents come to our assistance. I am filled with hurt pride and

self-pity. I seem to get no sympathy for my illness and have no

appreciation of the love behind the gift.

I call the boot-legger and fill up my charred keg. But I do not

wait for the charred keg to work. I get drunk. My wife is extremely

unhappy. Her father comes to sit with me. He never says an unkind word.

He is a real friend but I do not appreciate him.



We are staying with my wife's father. Her mother is in critical

condition at a hospital. The wind is moaning in the pine trees. I cannot

sleep. I must get myself



p.232



------------------------------------------



together. I sneak down stairs and get a bottle of whiskey from the

cellaret. I pour drinks down my throat. My father-in-law appears. "Have

a drink?" I ask. He makes no reply, and hardly seems to see me. His wife

dies that night.



Mother has been dying of cancer for a long time. She is near the

end and now in a hospital. I have been drinking a lot, but never get

drunk. Mother must never know. I see her about to go.

I return to the hotel where I am staying and get gin from the

bell-boy. I drink and go to bed; I take a few the next morning and go

see my mother once more. I cannot stand it. I go back to the hotel and

get more gin. I drink steadily. I come to at three in the morning. The

indescribable torture has me again. I turn on the light. I must get out

of the room or I shall jump out of the window. I walk miles. No use. I

go to the hospital, where I have made friends with the night

superintendent. She puts me to bed and gives me a hypodermic. Oh,

wonderful peace!



Mother and Father die the same year. What is life all about

anyway? The world is crazy. Read the newspapers. Everything is a racket.

Education is a racket. Medicine is a racket. Religion is a racket. How

could there be a loving God who would allow so much suffering and

sorrow? Bah! Don't talk to me about religion. For what were my children

ever born? I wish I were dead!



p.233



------------------------------------------



I am at the hospital to see my wife. We have another child. But

she is not glad to see me. I have been drinking while the baby was

arriving. Her father stays with her.



My parents estates are settled at last. I have some money. I'll

try farming. It will be a good life. I'll farm on a large scale and make

a good thing of it. But the deluge descends. Lack of judgment, bad

management, a hurricane, and the depression create debts in

ever-increasing number. But the stills are' operating throughout the

country-side.



It is a cold, bleak day in November. I have fought hard to stop

drinking. Each battle has ended in defeat. I tell my wife I cannot stop

drinking. She begs me to go to a hospital for alcoholics which has been

recommended. I say I will go. She makes the arrangements, but I will not

go. I'll do it all myself. This time I'm off of it for good. I'll just

take a few beers now and then.



It is the last day of the following October, a dark, rainy

morning. I come to in a pile of hay in a barn. I look for liquor and

can't find any. I wander to a stable and drink five bottles of beer. I

must get some liquor. Suddenly I feel hopeless, unable to go on. I go

home. My wife is in the living room. She had looked for me last evening

after I left the car and wandered off into the night. She had looked for

me this morning. She



p.234



------------------------------------------



has reached the end of her rope. There is no use trying any more, for

there is nothing to try. "Don't say anything," I say to her. "I am going

to do something."



I am in the hospital for alcoholics. I am an alcoholic. The insane

asylum lies ahead. Could I have myself locked up at home? One more

foolish idea. I might go out West on a ranch where I couldn't get

anything to drink. I might do that. Another foolish idea. I wish I were

dead, as I have often wished before. I am too yellow to kill myself. But

maybe-. The thought stays in my mind.



Four alcoholics play bridge in a smoke-filled room. Anything to

get my mind from myself. The game is over and the other three leave. I

start to clean up the debris. One man comes back, closing the door

behind him.

He looks at me. "You think you are hopeless, don't you?" he asks.

"I know it," I reply.

"Well, you're not," says the man. "There are men on the streets of

New York today who were worse than you, and they don't drink anymore."

"What are you doing here then?" I ask.

"I went out of here nine days ago saying that I was going to be

honest, and I wasn't," he answers.

A fanatic, I thought to myself, but I was polite. "What is it?" I

enquire.

Then he asks me if I believe in a power greater than myself,

whether I call that power God, Allah, Con-



p.235



------------------------------------------



fucius, Prime Cause, Divine Mind, or any other name. I told him that I

believe in electricity and other forces of nature, but as for a God, if

there is one, He has never done anything for me. Then he asks me if I am

willing to right all the wrongs I have ever done to anyone, no matter

how wrong I thought they were. Am I willing to be honest with myself

about myself and tell someone about myself, and am I willing to think of

other people. and of their needs instead of myself; to get rid of the

drink problem?

"I'll do anything," I reply.

"Then all of your troubles are over" says the man and leaves the

room. The man is in bad mental shape certainly. I pick up a book and try

to read, but cannot concentrate. I get in bed and turn out the light.

But I cannot sleep. Suddenly a thought comes. Can all the worthwhile

people I have known be wrong about God? Then I find myself thinking

about myself, and a few things that I had wanted to forget. I begin to

see I am not the person I had thought myself, that I had judged myself

by comparing myself to others, and always to my own advantage. It is a

shock.

Then comes a thought that is like A Voice. "Who are you to say

there is no God?" It rings in my head, I can't get rid of it.

I get out of bed and go to the man's room. He is reading. "I must

ask you a question," I say to the man. "How does prayer fit into this

thing?"

"Well," he answers, "you've probably tried praying like I have.

When you've been in a jam you've said, 'God, please do this or that' and

if it turned out your



p.236



------------------------------------------



way that was the last of it and if it didn't you've said 'There isn't

any God' or 'He doesn't do anything for me'. Is that right?"

"Yes" I reply.

"That isn't the way" he continued. "The thing I do is to say 'God

here I am and here are all my troubles. I've made a mess of things and

can't do anything about it. You take me, and all my troubles, and do

anything you want with me.' Does that answer your question?"

"Yes, it does" I answer. I return to bed. It doesn't make sense.

Suddenly I feel a wave of utter hopelessness sweep over me. I am in the

bottom of hell. And there a tremendous hope is born. It might be true.

I tumble out of bed onto my knees. I know not what I say. But

slowly a great peace comes to me. I feel lifted up. I believe in God. I

crawl back into bed and sleep like a child.

Some men and women come to visit my friend of the night before. He

invites me to meet them. They are a joyous crowd. I have never seen

people that joyous before. We talk. I tell them of the Peace, and that I

believe in God. I think of my wife. I must write her. One girl suggests

that I phone her. What a wonderful idea.

My wife hears my voice and knows I have found the answer to life.

She comes to New York. I get out of the hospital and we visit some of

these new-found friends. What a glorious time we have!



I am home again. I have lost the fellowship. Those that understand

me are far away. The same old prob-



p.237



------------------------------------------



lems and worries surround me. Members of my family annoy me. Nothing

seems to be working out right. I am blue and unhappy. Maybe a drink-I

put on my hat and dash off in the car.

Get into the lives of other people, is one thing the fellows in

New York had said. I go to see a man I had been asked to visit and tell

him my story. I feel much better! I have forgotten about a drink.



I am on a train, headed for a city. I have left my wife at home,

sick, and I have been unkind to her in leaving. I am very unhappy. Maybe

a few drinks when I get to the city will help. A great fear seizes me. I

talk to the stranger in the seat with me. The fear and the insane idea

is taken away.



Things are not going so well at home. I am learning that I cannot

have my own way as I used to. I blame my wife and children. Anger

possesses me, anger such as I have never felt before. I will not stand

for it. I pack my bag and leave. I stay with understanding friends.

I see where I have been wrong in some respects. I do not feel

angry any more. I return home and say I am sorry for my wrong. I am

quiet again. But I have not seen yet that I should do some constructive

acts of love without expecting any return. I shall learn this after some

more explosions.



I am blue again. I want to sell the place and move away. I want to

get where I can find some alcoholics to



p.238



------------------------------------------



help, and where I can have some fellowship. A man calls me on the phone.

Will I take a young fellow who has been drinking for two weeks to live

with me? Soon I have others who are alcoholics and some who have other

problems.

I begin to play God. I feel that I can fix them all. I do not fix

anyone, but I am getting part of a tremendous education and I have made

some new friends.



Nothing is right. Finances are in bad shape. I must find a way to

make some money. The family seems to think of nothing but spending.

People annoy me. I try to read. I try to pray. Gloom surrounds me. Why

has God left me? I mope around the house. I will not go out and I will

not enter into anything. What is the matter? I cannot understand. I will

not be that way.

I'll get drunk! It is a cold-blooded idea. It is premeditated. I

fix up a little apartment over the garage with books and drinking water.

I am going to town to get some liquor and food. I shall not drink until

I get back to the apartment. Then I shall lock myself in and read. And

as I read, I shall take little drinks at long intervals. I shall get

myself "mellow" and stay that way.

I get in the car and drive off. Halfway down the driveway a

thought strikes me. I'll be honest anyway. I'll tell my wife what I am

going to do. I back up to the door and go into the house. I call my wife

into a room where we can talk privately. I tell her quietly what I

intend to do. She says nothing. She does not get excited. She maintains

a perfect calm.

When I am through speaking, the whole idea has be-



p.239



------------------------------------------



come absurd. Not a trace of fear is in me. I laugh at the insanity of

it. We talk of other things. Strength has come from weakness.

I cannot see the cause of this temptation now. But I am to learn

later that it began with the desire for my own material success becoming

greater than the interest in the welfare of my fellow man. I learn more

of that foundation stone of character, which is honesty. I learn that

when we act upon the highest conception of honesty which is given us,

our sense of honesty becomes more acute.

I learn that honesty is truth, and the truth shall make us free!



Sensuality, drunkenness, and worldliness satisfy a man for a time,

but their power is a decreasing one. God produces harmony in those who

receive His Spirit and follow Its dictates.

Today as I become more harmonized within, I become more in tune

with all of God's wonderful creation. The singing of the birds, the

sighing of the wind, the patter of raindrops, the roll of thunder, the

laughter of happy children, add to the symphony with which I am in tune.

The heaving ocean, the driving rain, autumn leaves, the stars of heaven,

the perfume of flowers, music, a smile, and a host of other things tell

me of the glory of God.

There are periods of darkness, but the stars are shining, no

matter how black the night. There are disturbances, but I have learned

that if I seek patience and open-mindedness, understanding will come.

And with



p.240



------------------------------------------



it, direction by the Spirit of God. The dawn comes and with it more

understanding, the peace that passes understanding, and the joy of

living that is not disturbed by the wildness of circumstances or people

around me. Fears, resentments, pride, worldly desires, worry, and

self-pity no longer possess me. Ever-increasing are the number of true

friends, ever-growing is the capacity for love, ever-widening is the

horizon of understanding. And above all else comes a greater

thankfulness to, and a greater love for Our Father in heaven.

Our Southern Friend

John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) M.

<http://www.silkworth.net/aabiography/fitzmayo.html> Click here

<http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesf.html#FitzM> for more

resources on Fitz M.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
7099 Jim M
2nd edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit 2nd edit - Fitz M - Our Southern Friend - compare to 2nd edit 1/4/2011 12:58:00 AM


Compare to the 1st edition previously posted; edited in this 2nd

edition



OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND



Pioneer A.A., minister's son, and southern farmer,

"Who am I," said he, "to say there is no God?"



FATHER IS AN Episcopal minister and his work takes him over long

drives on bad roads. His parishioners are limited in number, but his

friends are many, for to him race, creed, or social position make no

difference. It is not long before he drives up in the buggy. Both he and

old Maud are glad to get home. The drive was long and cold but he was

thankful for the hot bricks which some thoughtful person had given him

for his feet. Soon supper is on the table. Father says grace, which

delays my attack on the buckwheat cakes ans sausage.

Bed-time comes. I climb to my room in the attic. It is cold so

there is no delay. I craw under a pile of blankets and blow out the

candle. The wind is rising and howls around the house. But I am safe and

warm. I fall into a dreamless sleep.

I am in church. Father is delivering his sermon. A wasp is

crawling up the back of the lady in front of me. I wonder if it will

reach her neck. Shucks! It has flown away. At last! The message has been

delivered.

"Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good

works-." I hunt for my nickel to drop in the plate so that mine will be

seen.

I am in another fellow's room at colledge. "Fresh-



460 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND

man," said he to me, "do you ever take a drink?" I hesitated. Father had

never directly spoken to me about drinking but he never drank any, so

far as I knew. Mother hated liquor and feared a drunken man. Her brother

had been a drinker and had died in a state hospital for the insane. But

his life was unmentioned, so far as I was concerned. I had never had a

drink, but I had seen enough merriment in the boys who were drinking to

be interested. I would never be like the village drunkard at home.

"Well," said the older boy, "Do you?"

"Once in a while," I lied. I could not let him think I was a

sissy.

He poured out two drinks. "Here's looking at you," said he. I

gulped it down and choked. I didn't like it, but I would not say so. A

mellow glow stole over me. This wasn't so bad after all. Sure I'd have

another. The glow increased. Other boys came in. My tongue loosened.

Everyone laughed loudly. I was witty. I had no inferiorities. Why, I

wasn't even ashamed of my skinny legs! This was the real thing!

A haze filled the room. The electric light began to move. Then two

bulbs appeared. The faces of the other boys grew dim. How sick I felt. I

staggered to the bathroom. Shouldn't have drunk so much or so fast. But

I knew how to handle it now. I'd drink like a gentleman after this.

And so I met John Barleycorn. The grand fellow who at my call made

me "a hale fellow, well met," who gave me such a fine voice, as we sang,

"Hail, hail, the gang's all here," and "Sweet Adeline," who gave me

freedom from fear and feelings of inferiority. Good old John! He was my

pal, all right.



461 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

Final exams of my Senior year and I may somehow graduate. I would

never have tried, but mother counts on it so. A case of measles saved me

from being kicked out during my Sophomore year.

But the end is in sight. My last exam and an easy one. I gaze at

the board with its questions. Can't remember the answer to the first.

I'll try the second. No soap there. I don't seem to remember anything. I

concentrate on one of the questions. I don't seem to be able to keep my

mind on what I am doing. I get uneasy. If I don't get started soon, I

won't have time to finish. No use. I can't think.

I leave the room, which the honor system allows. I go to my room.

I pour out half a tumbler of grain alcohol and fill it with ginger ale.

Now back to the exam. My pen moves rapidly. I know enough of the answers

to get by. Good old John Barleycorn! He can certainly be depended on.

What a wonderful power he has over the mind! He has given me my diploma!

Underweight! How I hate that word. Three attempts to enlist in the

service, and three failures because of being skinny. True, I have

recently recovered from pneumonia and have an alibi, but my friends are

in the war or going, and I am not. I visit a friend who is awaiting

orders. The atmosphere of "eat, drink, and be merry" prevails and I

absorb it. I drink a lot every night. I can hold a lot now, more than

the others.

I am examined for the draft and pass the physical test. I am to go

to camp on November 13th. The Armistice is signed on the 11th and the

draft is called off. Never in the service! The war leaves me with a pair

of blankets, a toilet kit, a sweater knit by my sister, and a still

greater inferiority.



462 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND

It is ten o'clock of a Saturday night. I am working hard on the

books of a subsidiary company of a large corporation. I have had

experience in selling, collecting, and accounting, and am on my way up

the ladder.

Then the crack-up. Cotton struck the skids and collections went

cold. A twenty three million dollar surplus wiped out. Offices closed up

and workers discharged. I, and the books of my division, have been

transferred to the head office. I have no assistance and am working

nights, Saturdays and Sundays. My salary has been cut. My wife and new

baby are fortunately staying with relatives. I feel exhausted. The

doctor has told me that if I don't give up inside work, I'll have

tuberculosis. But what am I to do? I have a family to support and have

no time to be looking for another job.

I reach for the bottle which I just got from George, the elevator

boy.

I am a traveling salesman. The day is over and business has been

not so good. I'll go to bed. I wish I were home with the family and not

in this dingy hotel.

Well-well-look who's here! Good old Charlie! It's great to see

him. How's the boy? A drink? You bet your life! We buy a gallon of

"corn" because it is so cheap. Yet I am fairly steady when I go to bed.

Morning comes. I feel horribly. A little drink will put me on my

feet. But it takes others to keep me there.

I become a teacher in a boy's school. I am happy in my work. I

like the boys and we have lots of fun, in class and out.



463 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

The doctors bills are heavy and the bank account is low. My wife's

parents come to our assistance. I am filled with hurt pride and

self-pity. I seem to get no sympathy for my illness and have no

appreciation of the love behind the gift.

I call the bootlegger and fill up my charred keg. But I do not

wait for the charred keg to work. I get drunk. My wife is extremely

unhappy. Her father comes to sit with me. He never says an unkind word.

He is a real friend but I do not appreciate him.

We are staying with my wife's father. Her mother is in critical

condition at a hospital. I cannot sleep. I must get myself together. I

sneak down stairs and get a bottle of whiskey from the cellaret. I pour

drinks down my throat. My father-in-law appears. "Have a drink?" I ask.

He makes no reply, and hardly seems to see me. His wife dies that night.

Mother has been dying of cancer for a long time. She is near the

end now and is in a hospital. I have been drinking a lot, but never get

drunk. Mother must never know. I see her about to go.

I return to the hotel where I am staying and get gin from the

bellboy. I drink and go to bed; I take a few the next morning and go see

my mother once more. I cannot stand it. I go back to the hotel and get

more gin. I drink steadily. I come to at three in the morning. The

indescribable torture has me again. I turn on the light. I must get out

of the room or I shall jump out of the window. I walk miles. No use. I

go to the hospital, where I have made friends with the night

superintendent. She puts me to bed and gives me a hypodermic.

I am at the hospital to see my wife. We have an-



464 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND

other child. But she is not glad to see me. I have been drinking while

the baby was arriving. Her father stays with her.

It is a cold, bleak day in November. I have fought hard to stop

drinking. Each battle has ended in defeat. I tell my wife I cannot stop

drinking. She begs me to go to a hospital for alcoholics which has been

recommended. I say I will go. She makes the arrangements, but I will not

go. I'll do it all myself. This time I'm off of it for good. I'll just

take a few beers now and then.

It is the last day of the following October, a dark, rainy

morning. I come to in a pile of hay in a barn. I look for liquor and

can't find any. I wander to a stable and drink five bottles of beer. I

must get some liquor. Suddenly I feel hopeless, unable to go on. I go

home. My wife is in the living room. She had looked for me last evening

after I left the car and wandered off into the night. She had looked for

me this morning. She has reached the end of her rope. There is no use

trying any more, for there is nothing to try. "Don't say anything," I

say to her. "I am going to do something."

I am in the hospital for alcoholics. I am an alcoholic. The insane

asylum lies ahead. Could I have myself locked up at home? One more

foolish idea. I might go out West on a ranch where I couldn't get

anything to drink. I might do that. Another foolish idea. I wish I were

dead, as I have often wished before. I am too yellow to kill myself.

Four alcoholics play bridge in a smoke-filled room. Anything to

get my mind from myself. The game is over and the other three leave. I

start to clean up the



465 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

debris. One man comes back, closing the door behind him.

He looks at me. "You think you are hopeless, don't you?" he asks.

"I know it," I reply.

"Well, you're not," says the man. "There are men on the streets of

New York today who were worse than you, and they don't drink anymore."

"What are you doing here then?" I ask.

"I went out of here nine days ago saying that I was going to be

honest, and I wasn't," he answers.

A fanatic, I thought to myself, but I was polite. "What is it?" I

enquire.

Then he asks me if I believe in a power greater than myself,

whether I call that power God, Allah, Confucius, Prime Cause, Divine

Mind, or any other name. I told him that I believe in electricity and

other forces of nature, but as for a God, if there is one, He has never

done anything for me. Then he asks me if I am willing to right all the

wrongs I have ever done to anyone, no matter how wrong I thought the

others were. Am I willing to be honest with myself about myself and tell

someone about myself, and am I willing to think of other people, of

their needs instead of myself, in order to get rid of the drink problem?

"I'll do anything," I reply.

"Then all of your troubles are over," says the man and leaves the

room. The man is in bad mental shape certainly. I pick up a book and try

to read, but cannot concentrate. I get in bed and turn out the light.

But I cannot sleep. Suddenly a thought comes. Can all the worthwhile

people I have known be wrong about God? Then I find myself thinking

about myself,



466 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND

and a few things that I had wanted to forget. I begin to see I am not

the person I had thought myself, that I had judged myself by comparing

myself to others, and always to my own advantage. It is a shock.

Then comes a thought that is like A Voice. "Who are you to say

there is no God?" It rings in my head; I can't get rid of it.

I get out of bed and go to the man's room. He is reading. "I must

ask you a question," I say to the man. "How does prayer fit into this

thing?"

"Well," he answers, "you've probably tried praying like I have.

When you've been in a jam you've said, 'God, please do this or that,'

and if it turned out your way that was the last of it, and if it didn't

you've said 'There isn't any God' or 'He doesn't do anything for me'. Is

that right?"

"Yes" I reply.

"That isn't the way" he continued. "The thing I do is to say 'God

here I am and here are all my troubles. I've made a mess of things and

can't do anything about it. You take me, and all my troubles, and do

anything you want with me.' Does that answer your question?"

"Yes, it does" I answer. I return to bed. It doesn't make sense.

Suddenly I feel a wave of utter hopelessness sweep over me. I am in the

bottom of hell. And there a tremendous hope is born. It might be true.

I tumble out of bed onto my knees. I know not what I say. But

slowly a great peace comes to me. I believe in God. I crawl back into

bed and sleep like a child.

Some men and women come to visit my friend of the night before. He

invites me to meet them. They are a joyous crowd. I have never seen

people that joyous



467 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

before. We talk. I tell them of the peace, and that I believe in God. I

think of my wife. I must write her. One girl suggests that I phone her.

What a wonderful idea!

My wife hears my voice and knows I have found the answer to life.

She comes to New York. I get out of the hospital and we visit some of

these new-found friends.

I am home again. I have lost the fellowship. Those that understand

me are far away. The same old problems and worries surround me. Members

of my family annoy me. Nothing seems to be working out right. I am blue

and unhappy. Maybe a drink—I put on my hat and dash off in the car.

Get into the lives of other people, is one thing the fellows in

New York had said. I go to see a man I had been asked to visit and tell

him my story. I feel much better! I have forgotten about a drink.

I am on a train, headed for a city. I have left my wife at home,

sick, and I have been unkind to her in leaving. I am very unhappy. Maybe

a few drinks when I get to the city will help. A great fear seizes me. I

talk to the stranger in the seat beside me. The fear and the insane idea

is taken away.

Things are not going so well at home. I am learning that I cannot

have my own way as I used to. I blame my wife and children. Anger

possesses me, anger such as I have never felt before. I will not stand

for it. I pack my bag and leave. I stay with understanding friends.

I see where I have been wrong in some respects. I do not feel

angry any more. I return home and say I am sorry for my wrong. I am

quiet again. But I have



468 OUR SOUTHERN FRIEND

not seen yet that I should do some constructive acts of love without

expecting any return. I shall learn this after some more explosions.

I am blue again. I want to sell the place and move away. I want to

get where I can find some alcoholics to help, and where I can have some

fellowship. A man calls me on the phone. Will I take a young fellow who

has been drinking for two weeks to live with me? Soon I have others who

are alcoholics and some who have other problems.

I begin to play God. I feel that I can fix them all. I do not fix

anyone, but I am getting part of a tremendous education and I have made

some new friends.

Nothing is right. Finances are in bad shape. I must find a way to

make some money. The family seems to think of nothing but spending.

People annoy me. I try to read. I try to pray. Gloom surrounds me. Why

has God left me? I mope around the house. I will not go out and I will

not enter into anything. What is the matter? I cannot understand. I will

not be that way.

I'll get drunk! It is a cold-blooded idea. It is premeditated. I

fix up a little apartment over the garage with books and drinking water.

I am going to town to get some liquor and food. I shall not drink until

I get back to the apartment. Then I shall lock myself in and read. And

as I read, I shall take little drinks at long intervals. I shall get

myself "mellow" and stay that way.

I get in the car and drive off. Halfway down the driveway a

thought strikes me. I'll be honest anyway. I'll tell my wife what I am

going to do. I back up to the door and go into the house. I call my wife

into a



469 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

room where we can talk privately. I tell her quietly what I intend to

do. She says nothing. She does not get excited. She maintains a perfect

calm.

When I am through speaking, the whole idea has become absurd. Not

a trace of fear is in me. I laugh at the insanity of it. We talk of

other things. Strength has come from weakness.

I cannot see the cause of this temptation now. But I am to learn

later that it began with my desire for material success becoming greater

than my interest in the welfare of my fellow man. I learn more of that

foundation stone of character, which is honesty. I learn that when we

act upon the highest conception of honesty which is given us, our sense

of honesty becomes more acute.

I learn that honesty is truth, and the truth shall make us free!







470 "Our Southern Friend" John Henry Fitzhugh (Fitz) M.

<http://www.silkworth.net/aabiography/fitzmayo.html>

Click here <http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesf.html#FitzM>

for more resources on Fitz M._________________________ All of the

Second editions stories, along with the 1st edition stories, are now

available from silkworth.net in their entirety here, including all

changes: http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/2nd/stories.html

<http://www.silkworth.net/bbstories/2nd/stories.html> ~Jim M.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
7100 J. Lobdell
Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book 1/4/2011 5:54:00 PM


I went back and looked again and Bill, unsurprisingly (given his ability and

dedication), is right. Fitz's story did not change from 2 to 3 to 4, but it did

change between 1 and 2 (oddly, I think, considering Fitz couldn't have approved

the changes after 1943). I would be very interested indeed in the changes from

the prepub text to Edition 1.



__________________________________________



> From: schaberg@aol.com

> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:59:25 +0000

> Subject: Re: Stories carried over from 1st to 2nd edition of Big Book

>

> Many changes in Fitz M's story "Our Southern Friend"

>

> I hesitate to contradict Jared - he is a true and reliable wellspring of

information both important and arcane and perhaps the most scrupulous researcher

within our fold - but there were some extensive edits done to Fitz M's story

"Our Southern Friend" when it was reprinted in the second edition (and then

preserved in the third and fourth editions).

>

> For instance, the first three paragraphs that appear in this story in the

first edition have been deleted, along with other deletions and additions

throughout.

>

> During a recent visit to the Stepping Stones archive we were able to see even

earlier versions of this story that are preserved there, containing some

interesting variations from the one published in the first edition.

>

> Old Bill


0 -1 0 0
7101 Charles Knapp
Re: AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? AA groups started without contact with people already in AA? 1/4/2011 6:20:00 AM


When you said no help from any other member, I assume you do not mean members

working at the AA office in New York. Early on, almost any request for

information was always followed up and contact was kept with new

prospects. Bobbie B was one of those New York office workers that followed up

with new members and occasionally sponsored loner members. 



One person does come to mind. Pat Cooper in Los Angeles got sober from reading

the manuscript for the Big Book before it was published. His story was in the

1st Edition of the Big Book called "Lone Endeavor." After the book was

published, Pat made a trip to New York, but arrived drunk. The story was pulled

from the 2nd printing of the book. In a letter dated Feb 8, 1947, Kaye Miller,

founder of AA in LA, wrote Bill W and said Pat was going to meetings and might

just make it. Nothing else was ever heard of him and he has faded

into AA history.



Hope this helps



Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
7102 Jay Lawyer
Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? 1/4/2011 6:53:00 PM


A WARNING ABOUT USING WIKIPEDIA uncritically as a source of information about

Alcoholics Anonymous history, from Jay Lawyer:



That is the trouble with using Wikipedia as any kind of source for information.

Anybody can write anything they want and unless somebody comes along to change

it, there it is for people to take as Gospel.

We of Alcoholics Anonymous have enough inaccurate info already, don't need to

add to it.



Jay



___________________________________________



Original Message: A complaint about the Wikipedia article on the Washingtonians

said:



The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders

are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It

doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite.


0 -1 0 0
7103 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: Is Grapevine literature "conference approved"? Is Grapevine literature "conference approved"? 12/25/2010 3:12:00 AM


From Laurie Andrews, Edgar C, and Kimball Rowe



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Each issue of the Grapevine carries this caveat or disclaimer: "Conference

Advisory Action 1986: 'Since each issue of the Grapevine cannot go through the

Conference-approval process, the Conference recognizes the AA Grapevine as the

international journal of Alcoholics Anonymous'."



- - - -



From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com)



The statement was made: "Isn't the Grapevine generally considered to be

conference approved via Concept 3?"



By the lawyerly interpretation assumed in that statement, ANY literature used by

a group (certainly an "element" of AA) could be considered conference-approved .

. .



Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida



- - - -



From: "Kimball Rowe" <roweke@msn.com>

(roweke at msn.com)



I would like to reverse the same question -- shoe on the other foot: If a group

draws a line in the sand for which they will not cross, i.e. "we will not read

from non-conference approved literature" then would not the Grapevine be

"considered" out.


0 -1 0 0
7104 doci333
1942 Letter by Bill W. 1942 Letter by Bill W. 1/14/2011 3:39:00 PM


In "As Bill See's It" page 14, "Newcomer Problem" in a 1942 letter by Bill W. he

writes:



"You can't make a horse drink water if he still prefers beer or is too crazy to

know what he does want. Set a pail of water beside him, tell him how good it is

and why, and leave him alone.



"If people really want to get drunk, there is, so far as I know, no way of

stopping this - so leave them alone and let them get drunk. But don't exclude

them from the water pail, either." 2. LETTER, 1942



Can anyone share the whole letter and any information concerning who the letter

was directed to? Any further info. would be appreciated.



I searched AA History Lovers and the Digital Archives don't go back that far.



Thanks –

Dave G., Illinois


0 -1 0 0
7105 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: 1942 Letter by Bill W. 1942 Letter by Bill W. 1/15/2011 4:03:00 AM


I had a similar query about the letter quoted on page 116 of As Bill Sees It.



My first home group met at a Quaker meeting house and I picked up literature on

display there and began attending Quaker meetings, eventually becoming a member.



A few years ago I wrote to the archivist at GSO asking if there was a copy of

the correspondence which resulted in the As Bill Sees It entry. It seems an AA

member Robert C. wrote to Bill in 1950:



"Dear Bill, I've been a member of AA for the past three years and am doing a

fairly good job. In the meantime I've become interested in the Society of

Friends (Quakers) and I seem to see a great kinship between the two movements.

The Way of Life of both movements seems to fit so well into each other that I

have become greatly interested in knowing how much Quakerism affected not only

the foundation of AA but also what part, if any, it has played to date."



Bill's reply opens with the two paragraphs quoted in Ad Bill Sees It. He then

goes on:



"Though the structure of our AA society was designed only by experience and what

grace God may have given us, I must confess that in this aspect we do bear a

strong resemblance to the Quakers. We, too, speak of a group conscience. Our

leadership is rotating. We have no paid preachers and once the early members

erected the basic principles, the authority seems to flow up through the mass

instead of down from the top. When I wrote the Traditions, I can assure you that

I did not create this state of affairs, I merely reflected what had already

appeared out of the groups."



I believe Lois Wilson attended a Quaker school as a child, and that after Bill

died there was a Quaker-style unprogrammed meeting for worship at Stepping

Stones. I was intrigued to know how Bill knew so much about Quakerism, but the

archivist could shed no light on that.



___________________________________________



To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

From: doci333@hotmail.com

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011

Subject: 1942 Letter by Bill W.



In "As Bill See's It" page 14, "Newcomer Problem" in a 1942 letter by Bill W. he

writes:



"You can't make a horse drink water if he still prefers beer or is too crazy to

know what he does want. Set a pail of water beside him, tell him how good it is

and why, and leave him alone.



"If people really want to get drunk, there is, so far as I know, no way of

stopping this - so leave them alone and let them get drunk. But don't exclude

them from the water pail, either." 2. LETTER, 1942



Can anyone share the whole letter and any information concerning who the letter

was directed to? Any further info. would be appreciated.



I searched AA History Lovers and the Digital Archives don't go back that far.



Thanks –

Dave G., Illinois


0 -1 0 0
7106 bikergaryg@aol.com
What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? 1/14/2011 1:33:00 PM


Big Book p. 5: "Gradually things got worse. The house was taken over by the

mortgage holder, my mother-in-law died, my wife and father-in-law became ill."



A friend of mine wrote me and asked: "I was reading the BB with someone

yesterday and p. 5 of Bill's story refers to Lois being sick (it says, 'my wife

got ill'). The person asked me what Lois had ... I had no idea. Do you know?"



Thanks and happy 24.

Kim


0 -1 0 0
7107 royslev
Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major 1/18/2011 3:12:00 AM


I noticed a post by Barefoot Bill of an obituary for Bill Wilson which

identifies his college major as an undergraduate as "engineering." I've heard

Clancy I. refer to Bill as having majored in "electrical engineering." Do we in

fact know for sure that it was engineering, and if so, what kind of engineering

was it?


0 -1 0 0
7108 eric_millman
Re: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? 1/18/2011 6:50:00 AM


In the movie "My Name is Bill W.," I believe Lois had a miscarriage around that

time.



Rick M


0 -1 0 0
7109 Glenn Chesnut
Re: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book? 1/18/2011 4:42:00 PM


Message #7106 asked: What illness did Lois Wilson have on p. 5 of the Big Book?



We need to look at Big Book p. 4: "My wife began to work in a department store."



As well as looking at Big Book p. 5: "Gradually things got worse. The house was

taken over by the mortgage holder, my mother-in-law died, my wife and

father-in-law became ill."



In this part of the Big Book, Bill W. seems quite possibly to have conflated

events from a number of different years, widely separated, which he arranged

totally out of chronological order. He was NOT a good man with dates. But I may

be being too skeptical here. Can any of our real Bill W. and Lois experts make

better sense out of these events?



Could the reference to Lois' illness on page 5 be talking about her ectopic

pregnancies? But they occurred in 1922 and 1923. Lois didn't start working at

Macy's (page 4) until 1931, implying that the illness referred to on page 5 was

something that occurred a number of years later, if we accept the chronology of

Bill Wilson's account here in pages 4-5 of the Big Book.

_______________________________________



THESE DATES ARE TAKEN FROM:

Arthur S. and Archie M.

"A Narrative Timeline Of AA History"

http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html



1922:



"Summer, Lois experienced two ectopic pregnancies (the first in Jun and the

second in Jul). After the second misfortune, Bill W and Lois were obliged to

face the fact that they would never have children. They applied to the

Spence-Chapin adoption agency but to no result. In later years, they found out

that they were denied the opportunity for adoption due to Bill's drinking. (PIO

67, LR 34, RAA 147-148, NG 315, WPR 59)"



1923:



"May, Lois experienced her third ectopic pregnancy which led to surgical removal

of her ovaries. Bill W was so drunk he did not go to the hospital to see her.

(BW-RT 128, LR 34, RAA 147, BW-FH 37)"



1930:



"Dec, after a binge that started in Montreal and carried him into VT, Lois went

to get Bill W. They finally returned to Clinton St and moved into a room there.

Lois' mother was dying from bone cancer. (PIO 86-87, BW-FH 46)"



"Dec 25, Christmas, Lois' mother died. Bill W, drunk for days beforehand, could

not attend the funeral and stayed drunk for many days after. (SW 30-31, PIO 87,

BW-RT 156, LR 82, BW-FH 46)"



1931:



Bill W was able to work occasionally through 1931, but entered a phase of

helpless drinking. Lois went to work at Macy's, earning $19 a week ($230 today)

and that became their livelihood. (PIO 90, 128, BW-FH 47)

_______________________________________





FROM A.A. COMES OF AGE:



1939:



In AA Comes of Age, page 173, Bill W. says: "Then, on May first [1939], fresh

calamity fell upon 182 Clinton Street. Lois and I had been living in a house

which belonged to her parents before their death. The bank had taken it over and

rented it to us for a nominal sum. The mortgage was so big the bank had found

great difficulty in selling the place, so we had been able to stay there several

years. But at this moment they found a purchaser and we had to get out. From its

four floors the old brick house disgorged its furniture into a moving van. The

warehouse had to pay the mover, since we could not. All our worldly goods were

in hock with the warehouse-man, and they were to stay that way for two years

more. Where could we go?"


0 -1 0 0
7110 J. Lobdell
RE: Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major Bill W''s Norwich University undergraduate major 1/18/2011 5:51:00 PM


If it was Engineering (and I see no reason to doubt that), it was simply

Engineering, assuming Norwich had the same curriculum in Bill's day as it had

before 1914. (The only major change ca 1915 was the creation of the ROTC Program

after much of the Cadet Corps went off to fight with Pershing in Mexico, and

that certainly had nothing to do with the Engineering program.)



Norwich, like West Point, was and is a military academy: it used to be the case

that all cadets took the same first two years, whatever the major the cadet

chose, and course differentiation by majors came only in junior year and beyond.



Norwich did offer Civil as well as Military Engineering early on (the first

Civil Engineering curriculum in this country, I believe), and now in the 21st

century offers Electrical Engineering as one of three Engineering majors, but

Norwich also now has students that are not part of the Corps of Cadets, which

was not the case in Bill's time and before (including the 19th century).



A lot of the USMA Military Engineers 1838-63 went into the Topographical

Engineers -- Norwich's "Civil" Engineers built permanent roads and bridges (and

lighthouses): they might be used by the Military (and were) but they were Civil

Engineering, not Military.



It may be of interest to some that in the last quarter of the 20th century, one

major firm bearing a name including the word "Electric" constructed a number of

power plants and electronic installations and whole military airports and bases

in an Arab country -- and all the work was done under the aegis of the firm's

public (civil) engineering division. The modern idea that Engineering must be

divided into sub-specialties is (except for the one exception in 1838-63) just

that -- a modern idea.



I don't say Clancy would be wrong -- in fact I think he's right -- in asserting

Bill's interest in electricity (his comments on the mysterious force of

electricity in discussing dependence -- his putatively being hired by Edison as

a research man), but I've been unable to find any indication that the Norwich

Engineering curriculum was subdivided before very recent times. If anyone knows

anything to the contrary, please let me know.


0 -1 0 0
7111 Steven
Group inventories Group inventories 1/18/2011 5:17:00 PM


Greetings everyone. Does anyone have any information on the origins of the AA

Group inventory? I am aware of the traditions checklist and the concept

checklist etc... What did we do before them?


0 -1 0 0
7112 Lawrence Willoughby
Re: Group inventories Group inventories 1/18/2011 10:03:00 PM


To the best of my knowledge the first group inventory was when there was a vote

to withdraw from the Oxford Group.



- - - -



From: Steven <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>

Subject: Group inventories

Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011



Greetings everyone. Does anyone have any information on the origins of the AA

Group inventory? I am aware of the traditions checklist and the concept

checklist etc... What did we do before them?


0 -1 0 0
7113 shakey1aa
group inventory group inventory 1/20/2011 10:04:00 AM


The man with the double stigma discussed in tradition 3 before Jimmy B (Ed) may

be the 1st case of group inventory. In Jimmy's story he says the book was

beginning to be written when he 1st came in (1938.) Jimmy's case may have been

the second documented case of a group inventory. I'll be interested to read

about earlier cases of a group inventory.



YIS,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, PA. USA

"going to Montana soon" NAW15


0 -1 0 0
7114 charlie brooke
Early Grapevine editor Joe T. Early Grapevine editor Joe T. 1/19/2011 4:11:00 PM


Greetings group:



Does anyone have any information on Joe Trundle, an early Grapevine editor who

was sent to Virginia to do a 12th Step call?



I am also looking for information about his wife Charlotte, who was a secretary

at the early GSO.



Charliespins


0 -1 0 0
7115 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: group inventory group inventory 1/20/2011 5:33:00 PM


Group Inventory: these are meetings at which members work toward understanding

how well the group is fulfilling its primary purpose.



See section on Group Inventory, p.27, from The AA Group. I think it is Pamphlet

16.


0 -1 0 0
7116 mrpetesplace
Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens Cecil Rose, When Man Listens 1/21/2011 5:05:00 AM


Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man

Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the

AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/



But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate

website: http://WhenManListens.com

________________________________________





Original message #6166 from "mrpetesplace"

<peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)



AAStuff has just added the full text of "When Man Listens" by Cecil Rose, on

http://aastuff.com/ see page http://aastuff.com/whenmanlistens.htm [THIS LINK IS

NO LONGER VALID]



Cecil Rose, When Man Listens (New York: Oxford University Press, 1937).

Dedicated "to the Oxford Group, the growing army of men and women who are

proving afresh for our generation that 'When man listens, God speaks; when man

obeys, God works.'"


0 -1 0 0
7117 jax760
Re: Group inventories Group inventories 1/21/2011 11:58:00 AM


Are we perhaps confusing a group inventory with a group conscience? A group

takes its inventory using a suggested checklist (the Grapevine published one I

believe).



I have never read anything about a "vote" to withdraw from the Oxford Group by

the New York contingent (I assume this is what the writer refers to?). I would

be interested to see a reference or source for the statement? Akron withdrew in

1939, but there were many instances of documented group conscience by then.



My understanding of the first recorded instance of "group conscience" is when

Charlie Towns offered Bill a job at Towns as a "lay therapist" in 1936. The

group got together and convinced Bill this was not in the best interest of the

fledgling fellowship (the drunk squad of the Oxford Group). I believe you will

find this documented in both Pass It On and A.A. Comes of Age.



God Bless



John B


0 -1 0 0
7118 diazeztone
Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens Cecil Rose, When Man Listens 1/22/2011 10:21:00 PM


I long ago constructed a nice page about this book at:



http://www.aabibliography.com/cecil_rose_when_man_listens_oxford_group_pamphlet.\

html




There is a free pdf of this book which can be downloaded there.



LD Pierce

www.aabibliography.com

__________________________________________





"mrpetesplace" <peter@...> wrote:

>

> Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man

Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the

AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/

>

> But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate

website: http://WhenManListens.com


0 -1 0 0
7119 diazeztone
Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri 1/22/2011 11:52:00 PM


Does anybody know who Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri is?



See http://www.authorsden.com/ae/viewworks_all.asp?Authorid=81922



Mr Palmeri seems to be reprinting a lot of Oxford Group books. Was he the one

making the cecil rose book available on aastuff.com??



LD Pierce

www.aabibliography.com

______________________________________





"mrpetesplace" <peter@...> wrote:

>

> Just an announcement that the link in Message #6166 to Cecil Rose, When Man

Listens, is no longer valid. You can still find a link to it by going to the

AAStuff home page at http://aastuff.com/

>

> But the actual text of Rose's book has now been moved to its own separate

website: http://WhenManListens.com


0 -1 0 0
7120 Kevin Short
Re: Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri 1/23/2011 5:24:00 PM


There is information about Tuchy in his



http://www.healing-habits.com/



web site.



Kevin Short

______________________________________





-----Original Message-----

From: "diazeztone" <eztone@hotmail.com>

Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011

Subject: Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri



Does anybody know who Tuchy (Carl) Palmieri is?



See http://www.authorsden.com/ae/viewworks_all.asp?Authorid=81922



Mr Palmeri seems to be reprinting a lot of Oxford Group books. Was he the one

making the cecil rose book available on aastuff.com??



LD Pierce

www.aabibliography.com


0 -1 0 0
7121 Robert Stonebraker
Photos of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves Photos of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves 1/23/2011 11:55:00 PM


I am trying to find pictures of Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, but am

having no luck in the finding any.



Any photos will be much appreciated. Thanks!



Bob Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>

(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)



212 SW 18th Street

Richmond, IN 47374

(765) 935-0130


0 -1 0 0
7122 Norm The Tinman
ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH 1/24/2011 12:49:00 PM


Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 --

in Miami, Florida.



A sad day for the fellowship for sure -- but I know

I will be grateful to him as long as I'm on this

earth.



Norm L.


0 -1 0 0
7123 shakey1aa@yahoo.com
Re: Group inventories Group inventories 1/24/2011 12:00:00 PM


The question is not relevant. The time we are talking about had no GSO, there

were only a couple groups. Thank God there was no service structure then to

louse it up.



Shakes Mike Gwirtz

Phila,PA USA



-----Original message-----

From: jax760 <jax760@yahoo.com>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 19:50:28 GMT+00:00

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Group inventories



Are we perhaps confusing a group inventory with a group conscience? A group

takes its inventory using a suggested checklist (the Grapevine published one

I believe).



I have never read anything about a "vote" to withdraw from the Oxford Group

by the New York contingent (I assume this is what the writer refers to?). I

would be interested to see a reference or source for the statement? Akron

withdrew in 1939, but there were many instances of documented group

conscience by then.



My understanding of the first recorded instance of "group conscience" is

when Charlie Towns offered Bill a job at Towns as a "lay therapist" in 1936.

The group got together and convinced Bill this was not in the best interest

of the fledgling fellowship (the drunk squad of the Oxford Group). I believe

you will find this documented in both Pass It On and A.A. Comes of Age.



God Bless



John B


0 -1 0 0
7124 Sherry C. Hartsell
RE: ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH 1/24/2011 5:41:00 PM


AMEN!



sherry



- - - -



From: Norm The Tinman

Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011

Subject: ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W'S DEATH



Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 --

in Miami, Florida.



A sad day for the fellowship for sure -- but I know

I will be grateful to him as long as I'm on this

earth.



Norm L.


0 -1 0 0
7125 George Cleveland
ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH ANNIVERSARY OF BILL W''S DEATH 1/24/2011 11:30:00 PM


Wasn't it also Bill & Lois' wedding anniversary?



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator: Yes, you're right, it sure was. "Jan 24, 1918 spurred

by rumor that Bill W might soon go overseas, he and Lois were married at the

Swedenborgian Church in Brooklyn, NY. Lois’ brother Rogers Burnham was best

man."



From the Narrative Timeline of AA History at

http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html



- - - -



> From: Norm The Tinman

>

> Bill Wilson died on this day -- 24th Jan 1971 --

> in Miami, Florida.


0 -1 0 0
7126 Jim M
Re: Cecil Rose, When Man Listens Cecil Rose, When Man Listens 1/25/2011 2:00:00 AM


OK, I reckon I'll put my two cents in. Cecil Rose, When Man Listens is also

available from silkworth.net:



http://www.silkworth.net/cecil_rose/cr_tablecontents.html





WHEN MAN LISTENS

by Cecil Rose



Everyone can listen to God.

When man listens, God speaks.

When man obeys, God works.

When men are changed, nations change.



TO



THE OXFORD GROUP

THE GROWING ARMY OF MEN AND WOMEN

WHO ARE PROVING AFRESH FOR OUR GENERATION

THAT



When man listens, God speaks;

When man obeys, God works.







Yours in service,

Jim M,

Go to silkworth.net >>> Visit us on Facebook!


0 -1 0 0
7127 Robert Stonebraker
Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 1/27/2011 3:25:00 PM


In late summer, 1934, Ebby Thacher faced confinement at a Brattleboro, VT,

mental institution after another drunken episode. However, Judge Graves

released him to the care of several Oxford Groupers: Rowland Hazard in

particular.



After closing the large Thacher home at 110 Taconic Ave., in Manchester, VT.,

Ebby took up residence in Shep Cornell's Manhattan apartment for a short

period, then moved into either the doubtlessly plush Oxford Group's Parish House

(Calvary House), or perhaps instead, a rather dismal Mission several blocks

away.



Question:



. . . . During this period, did Ebby reside at Calvary House, near 21st and

Park Ave, and attend meetings at the mission?



. . . . or did Ebby actually live IN Calvary Mission at 346 East

23rd Street?



I have read reports of both circumstances, but I would appreciate reliable

verification.



Thank you.



Bob S.

____________________



PS -- further question -- is the Calvary Mission still in existence?



Bob Stonebraker

212 SW 18th Street

Richmond, IN 47374

(765) 935-0130


0 -1 0 0
7128 Ben Hammond
Who was asked to work for a liquor trade association ? Who was asked to work for a liquor trade association ? 1/28/2011 8:07:00 PM


Howdy from Tulsa .... Who was the AA asked to work for a liquor trade

association mentioned in the 12 X 12 on pages 157-159 ... And which association

was asking ??



Thanks for your great group...Old Ben, Tulsa OK



Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond

5126 S. St. Louis Av

Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105

918 313 4059



- - - -



From Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>



There are partial parallels to this in the story of Marty Mann and the National

Council on Alcoholism. See the following two books (both available from

amazon.com):



Sally Brown and David R. Brown, A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady

of Alcoholics Anonymous (2001). An outstanding biography of one of our most

important early AA leaders.



Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism

(2003). Describes how the Hughes Act was passed and financed (the basis of the

modern legal treatment of alcoholics and the structure of most modern alcoholism

treatment centers).

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO3.html



Nancy Olson's book told how Marty Mann was using grants from national alcohol

industry associations to help support the National Council on Alcoholism for

quite a few years, and had representatives of those groups on the NCA's board.

Marty finally quit accepting money from them (and kicked them off the board)

only fairly late in her career, after she began to realize the increasing

possibilities of having the NCA's message seriously distorted by the liquor

interests.



Why increasing? For a number of years after AA was first founded, the organized

liquor interests loved AA, because they could use it to battle against the

prohibitionist groups who wanted to ban all alcohol sales in the United States.

Look at AA, they could say, the problem isn't alcohol, it's the relatively small

percentage of the population who are alcoholics.



But once the prohibitionist movement pretty much died off in the U.S., the

organized liquor trade began attacking and undercutting AA in every way they

could think of. A large percentage of the alcohol sales in the United States go

to practicing alcoholics, who consume enormously more alcohol per person than

normal social drinkers.



The organized liquor industry's advertising people are behind the "red wine

keeps you from having heart attacks" articles that appear periodically in

American newspapers and magazines. These ignore the fact that even just one

glass of red wine a day raises your chances of dying from cancer of various

kinds -- colon, breast, etc. -- and of dying from many other things -- liver

disease, etc. -- to such a degree that, as an important Irish study showed, it

raises the overall death rate, not lowers it. The Irish study showed that one

drink a day for younger people (two drinks a day for older people), will take a

year off your life span, statistically speaking.



Also the totally false claims that modern AA "only has a 5% success rate" or

that "it has been proven that the same percentage of alcoholics quit drinking

who simply attempt to quit on their own." Also all of the "A.A. is a cult"

anti-AA propaganda was egged on by them. Both are totally bogus claims, but the

organized liquor industry has deep pockets when it comes to saturating the media

with disinformation. Even some of our more naive AA people get sucked into

believing some of this, and actually help the liquor industry publicize these

claims.



Nancy Olson's book still ought to be "must" reading for anyone who wants to

seriously understand how politics, along with the struggle for money and power

(where large numbers of psychiatrists and psychotherapists have sometimes been

as anti-AA as the liquor industry), has distorted what Americans think they know

about AA and alcoholism and the best methods of treating alcoholism.


0 -1 0 0
7129 Cindy Miller
Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe 1/29/2011 11:19:00 AM


Does anyone have a link to that picture of Bill W. with the hole in

his shoe? (Feet up on the Office desk -- that's why you can see it.)



Thanks...

-cm


0 -1 0 0
7130 jax760
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 1/28/2011 5:31:00 PM


From John B. (jax760) and Richard Dillon



- - - -



From John B. <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)



According to Mel B. in "EBBY: The Man Who Sponsored Bill W." Ebby lived at the

Mission.



The mission closed its doors for good in 1936.



Best Regards,



John B



- - - -



From: Richard Dillon <dillonr9@yahoo.com>



According to pg 115 in Pass It On, Ebby stayed at the 23rd St. mission which,

last time I checked in 2008, is a adult movie store!



Rich D.

Astoria N.Y


0 -1 0 0
7131 Kevin Short
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 1/28/2011 8:01:00 AM


From Kevin Short, Chris B., and Alex H.



- - - -



From: Kevin Short <kshort@oxmicro.com>

(kshort at oxmicro.com)





There is now a McDonald's at the former location of the Calvary Mission at 346

East 23rd Street. Next door is an upscale residence.



The Calvary Church (at Gramercy Park) has undergone recent renovations,

specifically in the hall where Sam Shoemaker held gatherings. There is now a

Thrift Shop in the basement, where the Oxford Group headquarters were located.



Kevin S.



- - - -



From: "Chris B" <beachbuddah@gmail.com>

(beachbuddah at gmail.com)



I can't comment on Ebby's residence, but I can in response to your curiosity

about the Mission at Calvary. While the parish no longer has their homeless

shelter, they still offer a weekly soup kitchen and also a weekly food pantry. I

both visited their website and also gave them a call; that's the info I got.



Love and service,



Chris B.



- - - -



From: "Alex H." <odat@utj.org> (odat at utj.org)



346 East 23rd Street: you can look this up with Google Earth and see a picture

of the area at street level. It looks like businesses at street level with

condos above. The buildings look reasonably modern, no earlier than 1960.



"Near 21st and Park Ave"....



Calvary Episcopal Church (The Parish of Calvary-St. George's) 277 Park Avenue

South, New York. It is still there and it looks old enough. Apparently it has

merged with another church (St. George's Church) and they hold their services

together at the Park Avenue location (The Calvary). Here is the web site...



http://www.calvarystgeorges.org/



Here is a link that describes church organs but also notes the history of the

church and names it as Rev. Shoemaker's church where the Oxford Groups began and

the small description mentions AA ... "Under the Rev. Samuel Moor Shoemaker, III

(1893-1963), the Calvary Church Mission in the Bowery became the virtual

American headquarters for the Oxford Group during the 1930s. From this group

came Alcoholics Anonymous."



http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/CalvaryEpis.html



As a side note, Eric Metaxas attends the church now. He came to lecture here in

Texas in mid-January, 2011 talking about his book, a biography of Rev.

Bonhoeffer, of one of the men who tried to assassinate Hitler. (Recall the

recent movie, "Valkyrie.") I am reading the book now. It is entitled,

"Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy - A Righteous Gentile vs. the Third

Reich". Looking in my Kindle edition of the book, I see the Calvary Church on

Park Avenue is mentioned as the location where Rev. Buchman (the founder of the

Oxford Groups) gave his most unfortunate remark regarding Hitler. (See Kindle

location 5334-36, or so. I am not used to citing Kindle locations.)...



"Later in August Buchman made his tragic remark: "I thank heaven for a

man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the

anti-Christ of Communism." It was a throwaway comment made in an

interview with the New York World Telegram from his office at Calvary

Church on Park Avenue and Twenty-first Street, and it did not reflect

his wider thinking on the subject. Still, it illustrates how easily even the

most serious Christians were initially taken in by Hitler's conservative

pseudo-Christian propaganda."



As I recall my reading (On the Tail of a Comet: The Life of Frank Buchman by

Garth Lean), at the time, Rev. Frank Buchman was attempting to convince one of

Hitler's henchmen (was it Goebbels?) to become a Christian. As it was portrayed

in this biography Buchman was misled by Hitler's close adviser to seem as if he

was interested in converting. This caused Buchman to soften his tone toward

Hitler at first.



The Bonhoeffer biography makes it clear that misleading Christians into thinking

Hitler was pro-Christian was an early tactic of Hitler and Bonhoeffer lamented

that such a prominent Christian as Rev. Buchman was taken in by this lie, though

many Christians were at first. Bonhoeffer was the notable exception rather than

the rule.



BTW, I am a Jew but I tend to defend Christians using the logic of the tragic

poem of Pastor Martin Niemoller... "First They Came"



First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.



Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.



Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.



Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.



So now I speak out for the Christians in the hope that they will speak out for

me if the time should come.



Alex H.


0 -1 0 0
7132 ricktompkins
RE: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe 1/29/2011 10:36:00 PM


Hi Cindy, that is a great shot of Bill, but I don't know of any links.



I have a photo which I took of this photo; it was taken at the GSO Archives. I'm

sure the photo remains on one of the walls of the first vestibule.



Rick, Illinois

__________________________________



From GC the moderator: unfortunately, the Yahoo group system which we use for

the AAHistoryLovers strips off all attachments before they arrive on our Pending

Message board. It also does not allow us to add attachments to messages which we

post.

__________________________________



From: Cindy Miller

Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011

Subject: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe



Does anyone have a link to that picture of Bill W. with the hole in

his shoe? (Feet up on the Office desk -- that's why you can see it.)

Thanks...

-cm


0 -1 0 0
7133 Robert Stonebraker
New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book 1/30/2011 4:44:00 PM


I find a substantial similarity in the style of writing between Hank Parkhurst's

personal story, "The Unbeliever," and Fitz Mayo's personal story, "Our Southern

Friend."



It is known that Jim Scott helped edit the Akron stories, so I wonder whether

some of the New York personal stories were also edited by a professional writer

before entering the manuscript. I see where some stories were edited after the

manuscript was assembled in February of 1939, but I mean before (or as) the

Manuscript was first assembled -- before it was sent out for suggestions.



Does anyone know?



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
7134 Tom Hickcox
Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Reinhold Niebuhr Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Reinhold Niebuhr 1/29/2011 6:45:00 PM


At 07:01 1/28/2011, Kevin Short wrote:

>

>The Bonhoeffer biography makes it clear that misleading Christians

>into thinking Hitler was pro-Christian was an early tactic of Hitler

>and Bonhoeffer lamented that such a prominent Christian as Rev.

>Buchman was taken in by this lie, though many Christians were at

>first. Bonhoeffer was the notable exception rather than the rule.

>



Dietrich Bonhoeffer was close to Reinhold Niebuhr, the author of The Serenity

Prayer. He stayed with the Niebuhrs in New York City before he returned to Nazi

Germany to his fate. Bonhoeffer's sister, Christine, married Hans von Dohnanyi;

they were the parents of Christoph, a well-known conductor.



Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
7135 john wikelius
Pamphlet Project Volume 5 Pamphlet Project Volume 5 2/4/2011 4:12:00 AM


I have found a few more pamphlets that I have not seen or heard about yet. I am

looking for date of initial pamphlet and picture of the cover of each listed

below:

 

==================================

What about the alcoholic employee

 

medicine looks at alcoholics anonymous



The society of Alcoholics Anonymous

 

AA a uniquely American phenomena   (Fortune Mag)

 

Respecting Money

 

your general service

 

your role in the general service conference

 

guide to a.a.

 

our critics can be our benefactors

 

suggestions for improving aa's relationship with the medical profession and the

community

==================================



Working on Volume 5, "What we used to look like --- What we look like now."

 

Thanks in advance for your interest.



John Wikelius 

<justjohn1431946@yahoo.com> (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
7136 theanonymous752
The four paragraphs added to Bill''s story The four paragraphs added to Bill''s story 1/31/2011 8:21:00 PM


Since getting the recent publication "The book that started it all," I have

been intrigued by the four paragraphs from Bill's story that were added to the

original typed manuscript. These four paragraphs, from page 12 of the current

edition, are present at the beginning of the manuscript in hand written form.



What I found most interesting is that these paragraphs are NOT in Bill's

handwriting. They look to be in Henry Parkhurst's handwriting.



Many thanks to Old Bill and John Barton for their posts (6930 and 4377) on this

topic. Does anyone know any more about this? Would appreciate any information.


0 -1 0 0
7137 Bill
Re: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe 1/31/2011 5:43:00 AM


It's possible to send a link to your images (if you want to make them available

on the AAHistoryLovers with http://imageshack.us/



Greetings



William (Belgium)



- - - -



> From GC the moderator: unfortunately, the Yahoo group system which we use for

the AAHistoryLovers strips off all attachments before they arrive on our Pending

Message board. It also does not allow us to add attachments to messages which we

post.


0 -1 0 0
7138 LES COLE
RE: Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe Photo of Bill W. with hole in shoe 1/31/2011 11:46:00 AM


The Hole-in-shoe topic is a good reminder about the conditions during the Great

Depression. Many people wore shoes with such holes. New shoes (or even getting

them re-soled) was a luxury less important than buying food.



I was a child during the Great Depression and had shoes with such holes, all the

way through to the foot. I (and my brother) used to put pieces of cardboard on

the inside to protect our foot, then change the cardboard frequently as it, too,

wore through.



Fortunately, my father was a millwright and worked in factories which used many

machines driven by long, heavy, leather belts. Those belts were very durable but

did wear out beyond repair sometimes. He brought home pieces of such belts

(about 1/4 inch thick occasionally) and cut pieces to fit our shoe soles. These

were nailed onto the shoe-uppers around the edge as cobblers still do today.



There also were rubber, pre-sized shoe sole patches for sale which could be

glued on the the worn bottoms. (unfortunately, the glue was often not of good

quality, and after a few days might become loose, resulting in a "floppy walk"

until again repaired.



Les C

Colorado Springs, CO















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
7139 LES COLE
RE: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book 1/31/2011 11:13:00 AM


Since Parkhurst, Fitz, Bill (and others) were all close friends at that time in

NYC, perhaps they actually sort of collaborated on their writings.



From my reading (and looking at the marginal notes, etc) of the newly published

"original printer copy", I think it is very likely that Hank had a major role in

final clearance of the manuscript as it went to the printer. He had more

business experience than Bill, and I assume the others were happy with his role.

(Note his initials on each page.)



Also, I can imagine that the word-by-word review was done by the "clerical

type" folks after Bill added his ideas as to conceptual meanings.



We should remember that many people had sent their comments ... then the folks

in NYC must have entered those comments upon their working draft. Therefore, the

handwriting analysis for everything does not mean that the writer had those

thoughts ... they were simply the scribe for what had been received from many

other folks.



Les C

Colorado Springs, Colorado


0 -1 0 0
7140 diazeztone
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 1/31/2011 11:44:00 PM


Was not the site of the Calvary Mission the site of the original Waters Street

Mission??



LD Pierce

www.aabibliography.com



- - - -



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

Kevin Short <kshort@...> wrote:

>

> From Kevin Short, Chris B., and Alex H.

>

> - - - -

>

> From: Kevin Short <kshort@...>

> (kshort at oxmicro.com)

>

>

> There is now a McDonald's at the former location of the Calvary Mission at 346

East 23rd Street. Next door is an upscale residence.

>

> The Calvary Church (at Gramercy Park) has undergone recent renovations,

specifically in the hall where Sam Shoemaker held gatherings. There is now a

Thrift Shop in the basement, where the Oxford Group headquarters were located.

>

> Kevin S.

>

> - - - -

>

> From: "Chris B" <beachbuddah@...>

> (beachbuddah at gmail.com)

>

> I can't comment on Ebby's residence, but I can in response to your curiosity

about the Mission at Calvary. While the parish no longer has their homeless

shelter, they still offer a weekly soup kitchen and also a weekly food pantry. I

both visited their website and also gave them a call; that's the info I got.

>

> Love and service,

>

> Chris B.

>

> - - - -

>

> From: "Alex H." <odat@...> (odat at utj.org)

>

> 346 East 23rd Street: you can look this up with Google Earth and see a picture

of the area at street level. It looks like businesses at street level with

condos above. The buildings look reasonably modern, no earlier than 1960.

>

> "Near 21st and Park Ave"....

>

> Calvary Episcopal Church (The Parish of Calvary-St. George's) 277 Park Avenue

South, New York. It is still there and it looks old enough. Apparently it has

merged with another church (St. George's Church) and they hold their services

together at the Park Avenue location (The Calvary). Here is the web site...

>

> http://www.calvarystgeorges.org/

>

> Here is a link that describes church organs but also notes the history of the

church and names it as Rev. Shoemaker's church where the Oxford Groups began and

the small description mentions AA ... "Under the Rev. Samuel Moor Shoemaker, III

(1893-1963), the Calvary Church Mission in the Bowery became the virtual

American headquarters for the Oxford Group during the 1930s. From this group

came Alcoholics Anonymous."

>

> http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/html/CalvaryEpis.html

>


0 -1 0 0
7141 diazeztone
Agatha Christie, Miss Marple, 1930 Oxford Group mystery story Agatha Christie, Miss Marple, 1930 Oxford Group mystery story 1/31/2011 11:52:00 PM


Slightly off topic, but I found an Agatha Christie Miss Marple 1930 oxford group

mystery story called "Tape Measure Murder" from the book 13 clues for Miss

Marple (Dodds and Mead, 1966).



She evidently had another one unpublished:



http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/2886



It was called "The Capture of Cerberus"



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208212/Unseen-60-years-Mail-proudly-pre\

sent-Agatha-Christies-lost-masterpiece-The-Capture-Cerberus.html




==========================================

The Capture Of Cerberus (she wrote a completely different short story with the

same title in 1947) revolves around a dictator called August Hertzlein, who is

clearly Adolf Hitler.



In the course of the plot, Christie expresses the naive hope that Hitler could

have been converted to Christianity and begun preaching love and peace. There

really were people in the Thirties who believed this. One of them was Frank

Buchman, founder of the Oxford Group, a hugely influential movement which has

gone under various titles, including Moral Rearmament and Festival Of Light.



The story was found in her longhand notebooks by John Curran, a Christie

enthusiast and author in his own right.

==========================================



LD Pierce

www.aabibliography.com


0 -1 0 0
7142 diazeztone
More on Agatha Christie, Tape Measure Murder, Oxford Group More on Agatha Christie, Tape Measure Murder, Oxford Group 2/1/2011


you can read the entire story online at Tape Measure Murder:



http://books.google.com/books?id=uloAmt3O63MC&lpg=PA127&ots=fJ5zziCVll&dq=agatha\

%20christie%20oxford%20group&pg=PA115#v=onepage&q&f=false




Short link http://tiny.cc/christi_tape , scroll to page.



ld pierce

www.aabibliography.com


0 -1 0 0
7143 Jo Jo
The list of AA is not The list of AA is not 2/4/2011 11:55:00 PM


Does anyone know where the list of "AA is not" can be found ?



Years John Mears used to read it at the start of each meeting up in Brooksville.

I think it was out of the Grapevine. Any help would be appreciated .....



Thanks Joe M

<jmastromar@aol.com> (jmastromar at aol.com)


0 -1 0 0
7144 Shakey1aa@aol.com
Re: Pamphlet Project Volume 5 Pamphlet Project Volume 5 2/4/2011 7:51:00 PM


John, is this for some book or other publication?



shakey mike



- - - -



In a message dated 2/4/2011 5:36:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

justjohn1431946@yahoo.com writes:



I have found a few more pamphlets that I have not seen or heard about yet. I am

looking for date of initial pamphlet and picture of the cover of each listed

below:



+What about the alcoholic employee

+medicine looks at alcoholics anonymous

+The society of Alcoholics Anonymous

+AA a uniquely American phenomena (Fortune Mag)

+Respecting Money

+your general service

+your role in the general service conference

+guide to a.a.

+our critics can be our benefactors

+suggestions for improving aa's relationship with the medical profession and the

community



Working on Volume 5, "What we used to look like -- What we look like now."



John Wikelius


0 -1 0 0
7145 john wikelius
Re: Pamphlet Project Volume 5 Pamphlet Project Volume 5 2/5/2011 10:51:00 PM


This is a series I have been compiling for several years.

volume one distilled factoids is aa books their dates and printings

volume two alanon and alcoholism

volume three grapevine

volume four magazines associated with alcoholism, prohibition, temperance etc.

includes cover art, date and title of article.  volume five is pamphlets.

____________________________________________



--- On Fri, 2/4/11, Shakey1aa@aol.com <Shakey1aa@aol.com> wrote:



John, is this for some book or other publication?



shakey mike


0 -1 0 0
7146 John Barton
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 2/5/2011 6:01:00 PM


The Men Who Came to Believe



"Samuel Hopkins Hadley took over as Superintendent of the McAuley Rescue Mission

at 316 Water Street in 1886. From that time until his death in 1906 he helped

convert hundreds, if not thousands, of hopeless drunks. Sam's son, Henry

Harrison Hadley II, named after Sam's brother Coronal Henry Harrison Hadley,

would also sober up and be converted after his father's death. Harry Hadley

would later corroborate with Sam Shoemaker in opening the Calvary Mission on

23rd Street in Manhattan and become its first superintendent. At The Calvary

Mission both Ebby Thacher and Bill Wilson would separately answer calls to come

to the rail, kneel at the mercy seat, and experience the Power of conversion." -

Excerpt from The Golden Road of Devotion



John Barton



- - - -



Was not the site of the Calvary Mission the site of the original Waters Street

Mission??



LD Pierce

www.aabibliography.com


0 -1 0 0
7147 S Sommers
The list of AA is not The list of AA is not 2/5/2011 10:19:00 PM


From S Sommers, Laurence Holbrook, G.C. the

moderator, Azor521, and Gary Becktell



- - - -



From: S Sommers <scmws@yahoo.com> (scmws at yahoo.com)

>>also from: "Kimball Rowe" <roweke@msn.com> (roweke at msn.com)



There is a list in P-42 A Brief Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous called "What does

AA NOT do?" It lists ten things starting with:



1. AA does not run membership drives....



This list on pages 10 and 11 of the pamphlet is the closest thing I know to an

"AA is not."



Thanks for everything.



Sam S in Elkhart, Indiana



- - - -



From: "Laurence Holbrook" <email@LaurenceHolbrook.com Azor521@aol.com

>>also from "Gary Becktell" <gk@kitcarson.net>



You might check these sites:



http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/f-2_InfoonAA1.pdf

gives a fourteen-item list:



What A.A. Does Not Do

A.A. does not:

1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover

2. Solicit members

3. Engage in or sponsor research

4. Keep attendance records or case histories

5. Join “councils” of social agencies

6. Follow up or try to control its members

7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses

8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any

medical or psychiatric treatment

9. Offer religious services or host/sponsor retreats.

10. Engage in education about alcohol

11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social

services

12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling

13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A.

sources

14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials,

social agencies, employers, etc.



http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie/opencontent/default.asp?itemid=13&section=Abou\

t+Us


gives a ten-item list:



What AA Does Not Do



1. Solicit membership or try to persuade anyone to join A.A. who does not

want to.

2. Keep membership records or case histories.

3. Engage in or sponsor research.

4. Join counselling or social agencies, although A.A. members frequently

co-operate with them.

5. Make medical or psychological diagnosis or prognosis.

6. Provide drying out or nursing services, hospitalisation, drugs or any

medical or psychiatric treatment.

7. Engage in education or propaganda about alcohol.

8. Provide housing, clothes, food, jobs, money or other welfare or social

services.

9. Provide domestic counselling.

10. Accept money for its service or any money from non A.A. sources.





____________________________________________



Original question was from: Jo Jo

<jmastromar@aol.com> (jmastromar at aol.com)

Date: Friday, February 4, 2011



Does anyone know where the list of "AA is not" can be found?



Years John Mears used to read it at the start of each meeting up in Brooksville.

I think it was out of the Grapevine. Any help would be appreciated .....



Thanks Joe M


0 -1 0 0
7148 Dale
Re: The list of AA is not -- a list from the Grapevine The list of AA is not -- a list from the Grapevine 2/6/2011 1:08:00 PM


Joe, found this on a site after a google search and a few minutes of wading

through "other stuff." Is this the list you recall being read? The site

attributes it to the Grapevine (January 1991). To the site owner's credit they

sought permission from and give credit to the Grapevine.



Best regards,



Dale P, 6-5-87,

Longmont CO

________________________________________



WHAT AA IS NOT



1. AA is not an institutional clearing program. It does not promise that we will

receive suspended sentences, probations, or paroles. AA does not promise

conditional releases, stays of proceedings, or the early releases from prisons

or hospitals.



2. AA is not a "dating game" nor is it a lonely hearts club or a place to find a

temporary or permanent lover.



3. AA is not an employment agency or manpower training program. It does not

promise that we'll all find jobs, get rich, or even become financially solvent.



4. AA is not a charitable organization like the welfare system or the Salvation

Army. It doesn't promise that we'll be loaned money or given cigarettes. AA is

not a bank or a credit union, and is not set up to provide funds for anyone.



5. AA is not a church program or a religious organization (although many groups

rent church spaces to hold their meetings.) AA does not force religion down

anyone's throat. It does encourage us to develop and nourish individual

spiritual ways here and now, but it doesn't demand that we believe anything.

Saving souls and making converts is not the purpose of AA.



6. AA does not promise that we'll never be hurt or feel pain. When AA talks

about serenity, it is not talking about the absence of calamity but peace of

heart, mind and spirit in the midst of calamity. AA is not saying that we'll

have no more problems; it's saying that we'll be given what we need to deal

with, and go through, those problems. The absence of troubles is not the purpose

of AA.



Reprinted by permission of: AA Grapevine

1991 Grapevine Inc. January edition


0 -1 0 0
7149 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Where was Ebby residing? Where was Ebby residing? 2/8/2011 4:09:00 PM


The below has Bill W talking about going down 23rd Street and going to the

mission. So I think it leaves 316 Waters Street out of any ties to Bill Wilson

at the time he was drinking in 1934.



Wilson's first visit to Calvary Mission is described in the book "Alcoholics

Anonymous Comes of Age" as follows:



"One day, while feeling pretty maudlin, I got a great idea. I figured it was

time I did some religious investigation on my own hook. Remembering that Ebby,

a old drinking friend of mine, had been lodged by members of the Oxford Group at

Sam Shoemaker's Calvary Church Mission. I thought I would go and see what they

did down there. I left the subway at Fourth Ave. and 23rd St. It was a good

long walk along 23rd St., so I began stopping in bars. I spent most of the

afternoon in bars and forgot all about the Mission. At nightfall I found myself

in excited conversation in a bar with a Finn named Alec. He said he had been a

sailmaker and a fisherman in the old country. I thought again of the Mission.

Over there I would find fishers of men. Oddly enough it seemed like a wonderful

idea."



"I sold Alec on coming along and soon we reeled in the front door of the

Mission. Tex Francisco, an ex-alky in charge was right there to meet us. He

not only ran the place, he proposed to run us out of it! This made us quite

sore as we thought of our good intentions."



"Just then Ebby turned up grinning. He said, 'What about a plate of beans?'

After the food, Alec and I had slightly clearer heads. Ebby told us there would

be a meeting in the Mission pretty soon. Would we like to go? Certainly we

would go; that's why we were there. The three of us were soon sitting on one

of those hard wooden benches that filled the place. I had never seen a Mission

before, and I shivered a little when I looked at the derelict audience. There

was a smell of sweat and alcohol. I could well imagine how much suffering was

represented in this gathering."



AA Comes of Age, as quoted in:

http://www.examiner.com/addiction-in-baltimore/baltimore-born-reverend-dr-sam-sh\

oemaker-has-ties-to-local-treatment-center-and-aa-beginnings


___________________________________________



The waters street mission was at 316 Waters St., see below:



http://www.correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/mcauley/mcauley.html


0 -1 0 0
7150 last_town
Re: The list of AA is not The list of AA is not 2/9/2011 11:02:00 AM


This information is also found in The AA Group pamphlet (P16)



http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?category=4&product=41


0 -1 0 0
7151 JoeA
Re: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book 2/10/2011 5:33:00 AM


I with I had the memory I once had, but I was told that Parkhurst re-wrote

several bits of other people's stories in the first edition, and that it caused

some friction in the New York group. But I cannot remember the source of that

tidbit. Perhaps someone here has the reference.


0 -1 0 0
7152 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Re: New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book New York personal stories in 1st edit. of Big Book 2/10/2011 4:04:00 PM


Below taken from:

http://www.aabibliography.com/historybb.htm

(Home: http://www.aabibliography.com/index.html )



A History of The Big Book - Alcoholics Anonymous

Written by Donald B.

Copied by permission.

(Minor editing by Lyle P. and Byron B.)



The main text was completed, and as was the custom in those days, many books had

a section of personal stories, such as Science and Health by Mary Baker Eddy,

Twice Born Men, For Sinners Only, and The Changed Life.



The New York stories were very slow coming in. Hank and Bill tried editing them,

polishing and occasionally rewriting them, which was probably a mistake. An

alcoholic has pride in his own story, drunk or sober, and they felt their

stories should not be tampered with.



Meanwhile in Akron, Dr. Bob had sobered up a newspaper writer named Jim Scott,

who was helping the boys from Akron write their stories. Scott was born in

Australia, and graduated from the University of Glasgow, then came to America

shortly before World War I. He had worked for a time as a reporter for a

Pittsburgh newspaper, then held a series of jobs, losing most of them because of

drunkenness. After service in the Canadian Army, he came to Akron in 1919 as a

reporter on Goodyear Tire's Wingfoot Clan, advancing to editor, but resigning in

1926 because of drinking problems. In 1930, he began to trade and sell books to

support his drinking, opening a shop that soon failed. He then loaded a car with

books and traveled around the country selling them to libraries and historical

societies. Job after job, finally he landed a job with the Federal Writer's

Project, and edited the first edition of the Texas Federal Writer's Project

Book. When he finished that project, a friend put him on a bus to Akron, where

he arrived drunk. Scott took his last drink in 1937.



Nineteen of the stories in the first edition came from Akron. Obvious that the

greatest assets of alcoholics in helping others recover was their personal

stories, this constituted over half of the text. This created a big problem in

Akron because many of the Akronites did not want the book printed. Bill D., AA

number three, did not agree with the book project and would not allow his story

to be used. It was not until the second edition in 1955 that Bill D.'s story was

first printed. Bill Wilson traveled to Akron, interviewed Bill D., and

personally wrote the story. Scott worked with the drunks on their stories and

helped rewrite them. Sue Smith-Windows was going to Business College at the time

and typed some of the Akron stories.



In his book, which is now owned by one of my friends, Archie Towbridge, the

first member in Detroit, writes, I write my story in the small hours of the

morning, sometime in late December or early January, 1939, just ahead of the

printer's deadline. I had been sober four months. The story says six months as

due time was allowed for publication. My perspective was very limited and the

story was unduly brief. Sixteen years later, I was asked to rewrite it for the

first new edition. Archie also writes, To the best of my knowledge, this copy is

one of the first hundred copies to be bound. The reason only one hundred were

bound was that Works Publishing Company did not have any money to pay the

printer!



By the end of January, Bill wanted to rush the book into print. Then some one

sounded a note of caution: What if the book contained errors? What if the book

was offensive to the religious? So four hundred multilith loan copies were

printed for evaluation. Comments were offered. Bill had written Alcoholics

Anonymous on the cover page, but many in the New York area and more in the Akron

area found this title unacceptable; the other title was The Way Out, which had

become very popular. Other titles under consideration included: Empty Glass, Dry

Frontiers, and Bill even briefly considered The Will W. Movement, but the

choices came down to two: The Way Out, or Alcoholics Anonymous. So, Bill called

Fitz Mahugh, who was in Washington, D.C., visiting family, and asked him to go

to the Library of Congress and see how many books were already titled The Way

Out. And if there were any named Alcoholics Anonymous. Fitz wired back saying

there were twelve books titled The Way Out but none titled Alcoholics Anonymous.

That settled it. No one wanted to have the thirteenth of anything.



Actually the name Alcoholics Anonymous had appeared as early as July 15, 1938,

in a letter from Bill to Dick Richardson, and according to a letter from Dr.

Richards of Johns Hopkins on July 18,1938. Bill at the time was using the name

as the working title of the book and the name of the fellowship. Comments came

in from New Jersey. A psychiatrist, Dr. Howard, observed that the message of

insanity and death so vividly portrayed in the book as consequences of

alcoholism were so persuasive that no further force was necessary, thus the

language was softened and A.A.'s debt to medicine deepened.



From religion, Dr. Harry E. Fosdick returned his copy without criticism, a

favorable book review, and encouraged Alcoholics Anonymous to release it as they

wished.



Morgan Ryan, recently out of Rockland Asylum, took the manuscript to the New

York Archdiocesan committee on publications. According to Morgan, that committee

had nothing but the best to say about AA and the book. They did ask just one

small thing, that the last line of Bill's story be changed from Heaven to

Utopia.



Finally, the manuscript was completed and sent to Tom Uzzell, a professor at New

York University for final editing. Dr. Uzzell was a past editor of Colliers

Magazine, contributor to The Saturday Evening Post, and writer of several books.

Among the books he had edited was The Good Earth, If I Had Four Apples, and many

other best sellers. He was probably the top person in the business of preparing

manuscripts for publication. In a letter to Hank, he said, I spent last evening

with a manuscript, I knew, of course, what the document was, but upon reading

additional chapters and surveying the job as a whole, I found myself deeply

moved at times, full of amazement, almost incredibly, and during most of the

reading I was extremely sympathetic. My feeling at the moment is that you should

certainly hold on to the publication, and distribution of this volume if you

can. It ought to go far and wide and handsome, and make those concerned a big

profit. You have here an extremely urgent problem, you have a successful

defiance of medicine, you have a religious story, you have a deeply human story,

and lastly you have a whole flock of happy endings. I don't know what else you

could want for an excellent book. I believe in it most emphatically. The whole

book needs final shaping of a professional hand. But it is interesting that he

ends the letter with, I understand better now the enthusiasm you revealed when

you talked to me about this work, I thought you were exaggerating somewhat, but

now I have joined the choir. They paid Dr.Uzzell $380.



Finally, they were ready to go. They went up to see Mr. Blackwell at Cornwall

Press. He said how many copies do you want? They said just print a few, say

5,000 copies. Blackwell said how much are you going to put down, they said well,

maybe $500 on account.

________________________________________



Orig. question from <joeadams1950@gmail.com> (joeadams1950 at gmail.com)



I with I had the memory I once had, but I was told that Parkhurst re-wrote

several bits of other people's stories in the first edition, and that it caused

some friction in the New York group. But I cannot remember the source of that

tidbit. Perhaps someone here has the reference.


0 -1 0 0
7153 jaxena77
Red Road meetings Red Road meetings 2/10/2011 8:02:00 PM


Do any members have information on whether or not there is a distinction between

a Red Road meeting and an AA meeting on reservations?



I've heard that Red Road meetings are not AA meetings, but I also read an

article in the Grapevine "The longhouse" that talks about the author's home

group being The Red Road AA meeting.



Are Red Road meetings a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA or a

common AA meeting name on some reservations?



I am also looking for any info on the first meetings to take place on

reservations in Northern America. I already have quite a bit of information on

Maynard B. and Tall Man. I'm looking for older stories if possible.



Thank you!

Jackie B


0 -1 0 0
7154 kcb007_99
Re: Anne Smith: Mother of AA? Anne Smith: Mother of AA? 2/11/2011 1:22:00 AM


Dick B., The Oxford Group and Oxford Anonymous,

rev. ed. (Kihei, HI: Paradise Research Publications,

1998), page 11, footnote 31 reviews evidence that

Bill W. called Anne Smith a "founder" of A.A. and

the "Mother of A.A."



- - - -



Message #7086 from <aalogsdon@aol.com> (aalogsdon at aol.com) asked the

question:



In several of the postings Anne Smith is cited as the Mother of the first group

in Akron. I have heard quoted that she was the Mother of AA. Is this quotation

in print somewhere? Thanks.


0 -1 0 0
7155 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Anne Smith: Mother of AA? Anne Smith: Mother of AA? 2/11/2011 3:02:00 PM


From Baileygc23 and Charles Knapp



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



I am sure that the below is not the only instance of Bill W's making the

statement, but it is a start.



Bill W., The Language of the Heart, 353-54:



Anne was the wife of Dr. Bob, cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous. She was, quite

literally, the mother of our first group, Akron Number One. Her wise and

beautiful counsel to all, her insistence that the spiritual come before anything

else, her unwavering support of Dr. Bob in all his works; all these were virtues

which watered the uncertain seed that was to become A.A. . . . In the full sense

of the word, she was one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous.



- - - -



From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com> (cpknapp at yahoo.com)



This is from the July 1949 Grapevine:



Anne S.



ANNE S. has taken her leave of us. She died on Wednesday June 1. To the hundreds

who really knew her, this was a meaningful and moving event. With those who knew

her not, I wish to share the inspiration which she gave to Lois and me. Anne was

the wife of Dr. Bob, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. She was, quite

literally, the mother of our first Group, Akron No. One.



HER wise and beautiful counsel to all, her insistence that the spiritual come

before anything else, her unwavering support of Dr. Bob in all his works; all

these were virtues which watered the uncertain seed that was to become A.A. Who

but God could assess such a contribution? We can only say that it was priceless

and magnificent. In the full sense of the word, she was one of the founders of

Alcoholics Anonymous.



Not a soul who knew Anne will say that she is really gone. Each knows that her

abiding love and influence will live forever. And none knows better than Dr.

Bob, Lois and I, who saw these things from the beginning. Nor do we think we

shall never see her again. For, like nearly all our fellow A.A. members, we

believe there is no death. She is only out of our sight and hearing for a little

while.



Bill W.


0 -1 0 0
7156 Glenn Chesnut
More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/11/2011 9:47:00 PM


From Glenn Chesnut, Mitchell K., and Jim Myers



================================

(1) FROM GLENN CHESNUT



Jim Myers has reported more problems keeping silkworth.net online. His server

has raised his rates, because so many people are using his site. I am posting

this for all the folks on the AAHistoryLovers because this is more than just the

silkworth.net problem. The issue being raised is one that is beginning to have a

major impact on AA history and archives in general.



It is increasingly becoming clear that the best way to make important documents,

photos, etc., available to historians and archivists is through online sites

like silkworth.net. There seems to be much less censorship involved (so far

anyway), and the material is made available where everyone without exception has

access to it. Also, you don't have to travel halfway across the North American

continent (or halfway around the world) to look at the material.



They are also becoming recognized as the best way to make good state and local

AA history accessible.



But when these online archives become large enough, they become expensive to

maintain. Not expensive AT ALL in comparison with maintaining an archives in a

building with hard copies stored in file cabinets, but online archives aren't

free.



At any rate, I thought it important to keep everyone posted on what is

happening.



Glenn Chesnut, Moderator of the AAHistoryLovers

Manager of the Hindsfoot.org website.



================================

(2) FROM MITCHELL K.



Maybe opening up a different site just for MP3 downloads as they are data

guzzlers. I might suggest speaking with the folks at XA-Speakers.org for ideas.



I understand as alcoholics in recovery for the need to both address everything

and be all things to all people but being all things to all people, not

offending anyone, not scaring anyone away and kissing every boo boo has been the

downfall of Alcoholics Anonymous (IMO).



I think Silkworth has been the benchmark for a totally fair and unbiased

viewpoint of AA history on the Net. NO ONE comes close. It's OK for one site to

put together all the biased views in one place which Silkworth does quite well.

Maybe it is time to diversify to different but linked sites.



Unfortunately, if the PayPal donations cannot sustain unbiased reporting then

the supported but biased sites will prevail. There are too many out there who

say they offer freedom of choice but leave out the actual choice is the choice

offered. Yes, you are offered a choice just as long as it is the choice believed

by the people who offered the choice. Yes, you can believe whatever you want

just as long as it matches what we believe.



If people really want true freedom of information, maybe those who can afford to

contribute more will. If not, we all know whose truth each wants us to believe.



================================

(3) FROM JIM MYERS



From: Jim Myers <jim.myers56@yahoo.com>

(jim.myers56 at yahoo.com)

Date: Sun, February 6, 2011

Subject: Doteasy Account for silkworth.net to stay online



Just wanted to let you know I ave run into a problem with my hosting provider

(doteasy.com) for silkworth.net. It appears that silkworth.net is more popular

than I expected. They have sent me an email stating that I must change my

current service to an upgrade which is more than I can pay. You can read the

details below. They expect for me to pay as much as $19.95 more per month? I am

dumbfounded by their request.



Last month, silkworth.net had more than 72,000 visitors and there has been as

much mp3 downloads as 24 GB in two days.



I am open for sugestions. The Pay Pal link is not doing very well, and I fear

that doteasy.com may limit my current abilities as to what I can do or not do or

post from silkworth.net.



The current status as far as stats for silkworth.net for last month alone were

1,530,428 total hits and 1,251,709 total files and 283,444 total pages and

72,998 total visitors.



I am not sure how to respond to their email (below) yet, and I am open to

suggestions. Please advise me as what would be the best course of action to

take.



A little uneasy,

Yours in service,

Jim M,

http://www.silkworth.net/

_______________________________________



From: Doteasy <DoNotReply@doteasy.com>

To: jim.myers56@yahoo.com

Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 3:00 PM



Hello James,



It has come to our attention that your account ( silkworth.net ) used a lot of

traffic with your MP3 download. Your account has used up 24GB of traffic in just

2 days.



Please note that you are responsible for ensuring that your use of the service

does not consume excessive system or network resources that disrupts the normal

use of the service through, but not limited to, spawning multiple processes,

consuming excessive amounts of memory, CPU or bandwidth usage.



- http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#14



Also, please note that our shared hosting server is not meant to act as a file

sharing/media streaming server: http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#5



We advise you to consider VPS or dedicated server. With VPS (Virtual Private

Server) or Dedicated hosting, your server is dedicated to your needs, which will

allow you to have more control, such as using cron jobs, or installing custom

server software such as streaming media, etc. You can learn more about them at

the following links:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_server



You can refer to the following links for more details and pricing:



http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package

http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/



Please let us know if you would like to upgrade to VPS or dedicated server and

which plan you are interested in.



Thank you.

Regards,

Philip

Doteasy Customer Service


0 -1 0 0
7157 Glenn Chesnut
The Broad Highway The Broad Highway 2/15/2011 3:26:00 PM


From: Bob S. (Charlottesville, Virginia)

<bsdds@comcast.net> (bsdds at comcast.net)



BIG BOOK VS. THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT



I got this question about the "broad highway" from a friend of mine in Lubbock:



In the Bible, the term "broad highway" is used in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. We

are supposed to take the less used narrow path which leads to salvation instead

of the broad path/highway leads to perdition (cf. Hank Williams, "Lost highway"

at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcIgQWdWWag ).



========================================

THE USE OF THIS TERM IN THE BIBLE:

See Matthew 7:12-14 in the Revised Standard Version



"So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the

law and the prophets. Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way

is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the

gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it

are few."



And in the King James Version (Authorized Version):

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even

so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait

gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,

and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is

the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

========================================



But the AA Big Book refers to the road to sobriety and recovery as the "broad

highway."



========================================

IN THE BIG BOOK:



(p. 46) "Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's

conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to

make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the

possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe

underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of

power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God

does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of

Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those

who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men."



(p. 55) "We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our

make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to

search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We

found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only

there that He may be found. It was so with us.



We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice,

enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within

yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this

attitude you cannot fail. The consciousness of your belief is sure to come to

you."



(p. 75) "We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of

character, every dark cranny of the past. Once we have taken this step,

withholding nothing, we are delighted. We can look the world in the eye. We

can be alone at perfect peace and ease. Our fears fall from us. We begin to

feel the nearness of our Creator. We may have had certain spiritual beliefs,

but now we begin to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that the drink

problem has disappeared will often come strongly. We feel we are on the Broad

Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe."

========================================



Williams James referred to the "broad highway" in his book "The Meaning of

Truth: A Sequel to 'Pragmatism.'" There is a book published in 1910, a romance

novel, by Jeffery Farnol entitled The Broad Highway, and there is even a

recovery website called the Broad Highway.



But where did Bill Wilson and the first 100 come up with the terminology "the

Broad Highway" ? ? ?



Bob S. (Charlottesville, Virginia)


0 -1 0 0
7158 Steven
Emmet Fox''s death Emmet Fox''s death 2/14/2011 5:13:00 AM


Does anyone know how Emmet Fox passed away?



Steven



- - - -



From Glenn C. the moderator -- see this chapter in

a Ph.D. thesis from South Africa: pp. 22-23 describe

Fox's death (note also pp. 20-21).



http://uir.unisa.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10500/2026/02chapter2.pdf;jsessionid=D02\

E1DD9FBEF011F8703EC080C32656D?sequence=2




This little biography of Emmet Fox makes VERY

fascinating reading. I recommend the whole piece

very strongly to anyone who is interested in

AA history.


0 -1 0 0
7159 Tim S
Re: Red Road meetings Red Road meetings 2/13/2011 2:40:00 AM


From Tim S., gerrynmt, and Jim in Central Ohio



- - - -



From: "Tim S" <timschluter@email.com> (timschluter at email.com)



Jackie B,



The short answer is "Yes". Though many understand them as "a type of 12-step

meeting that is distinct from AA", others understand them as "a common AA

meeting name".



The often spoken phrase "traveling the Red Road" refers to Native American

spirituality and even more specifically to a deliberate return to (or

incorporation of) traditional native values and practices. So if you were to

hear me use that statement you would understand it as meaning the practice of

traditional customs.



The meeting may have a different format than what most people are accustomed to

at off-reservation meetings. The Red Road to Well-briety often incorporates such

traditional spiritual practices as smudging, totems, native language, high

regard for traditional values. My brothers and I consider Red Road to be AA. If

we are in the presence of someone who interprets it otherwise, then that is

fine, we don't argue the point, we accept it and try to understand their

perspective.



The Twelve Steps are interpreted through the Medicine Wheel as opposed to the

linear way they are presented at most AA meeting.



There are many differences which I am more than willing to share with you if you

wish additional detail. To a brother or sister from Turtle Island the practices

are spiritually edifying. To one not familiar with native traditions and

practices they would seem unusual.



I encourage you to attend a Red Road meeting with an open mind, and should you

choose to refer to one as "indian" don't be offended if in turn they refer to

you as a "cowboy".



Tim



- - - -



From: "gerrynmt" <traditionsway@yahoo.com>

(traditionsway at yahoo.com)



Jackie,



Red Road meetings are not AA. They are a part of White Bison Inc. which is a

private, non-profit organization that, like others, utilizes the twelve steps of

AA. In their interpretation, they relate the steps to general Native American

traditons. White Bison Inc. uses their own literature along with AA literature

during their meetings. White Bison Inc. and the "Red Road of Wellbriety" have

helped many people recover from alcoholism and other addictions, however, while

many participants believe they are doing AA, they are not.



- - - -



From: Sober186@aol.com



I don't know if this is the same Red Road to which you refer, but there is

information on a Red Road Recovery movement here:



http://milkmanscircle.net/Milkman%27s%20CircleD2/Templates/red_road.htm



RED ROAD ~ A Return To The Circle

(16 Steps of Empowerment)



1. We affirm we have the power to take charge of our lives and stop being

dependent on substances or other people for our self-esteem and security.



2. We come to believe the Great Spirit awakens the healing wisdom within us when

we open ourselves to that power.



3. We make a decision to become our authentic selves and trust in the healing

power of the truth.



4. We examine our beliefs, addictions, and dependent behavior in the context of

living in a hierarchal, patriarchal culture.



5. We share with another person and the universe all those things

inside of us for which we feel shame and guilt.



6. We affirm and enjoy our strengths, talents, and creativity, striving not to

hide these qualities to protect others' egos.



7. We become willing to let go of shame, guilt, and any behavior that keeps us

from loving ourselves and others.



8. We make a list of people we have harmed and people who have harmed us and

take steps to clear out negative energy by making amends and sharing our

grievances in a respectful way.



9. We express love and gratitude to others, and increasingly appreciate the

wonder of life and the blessings we do have.



10. We continue to trust our reality and daily affirm that we see what we see,

we know what we know, and we feel what we feel.



11. We promptly acknowledge our mistakes and make amends when appropriate, but

we do not say we are sorry for things we have not done, and we do not cover up,

analyze, or take responsibility for the shortcomings of others.



12. We seek out situations, jobs, and people that affirm our intelligence,

perceptions, and self-worth to avoid situations or people who are hurtful,

harmful, or demeaning to us.



13. We take steps to heal our physical bodies, organize our lives, reduce

stress, and have fun.



14. We seek to find our inward calling and develop the will and wisdom to follow

it.



15. We accept the ups and downs of life as natural events that can be used as

lessons for our growth.



16. We grow an awareness that we are inter-related with all living things and we

contribute to restoring peace and balance on Mother Earth.



Jim in Central Ohio





_____________________________________________



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jaxena77" <jackiebendzinski@...> wrote:

>

> Do any members have information on whether or not there is a distinction

between a Red Road meeting and an AA meeting on reservations?

>

> I've heard that Red Road meetings are not AA meetings, but I also read an

article in the Grapevine "The longhouse" that talks about the author's home

group being The Red Road AA meeting.

>

> Are Red Road meetings a type of 12-step meeting that is distinct from AA or a

common AA meeting name on some reservations?

>

> I am also looking for any info on the first meetings to take place on

reservations in Northern America. I already have quite a bit of information on

Maynard B. and Tall Man. I'm looking for older stories if possible.

>

> Thank you!

> Jackie B

>


0 -1 0 0
7160 A from near Maldon, England,
Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? 2/12/2011 6:04:00 AM


That warning below is good reading BUT whether we like it or not Wikipedia is

the first line of enquiry nowadays for many millions of people.



The editors go to considerable lengths to root out flawed entries and there are

ways for anyone to complain.



I know whenever I see something wrong or missing I update it if I am technically

capable or at worst alert someone else that what is written is wrong, so if

there is stuff out there that give a false impression we can do our bit by

taking action, that was the purpose of my original posting, I hope some here

have checked over there and from their knowledge decided whether correction is

needed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washingtonian_movement



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Lawyer"<ejlawyer@...> wrote:

>

> A WARNING ABOUT USING WIKIPEDIA uncritically as a source of information about

Alcoholics Anonymous history, from Jay Lawyer:

>

> That is the trouble with using Wikipedia as any kind of source for

information. Anybody can write anything they want and unless somebody comes

along to change it, there it is for people to take as Gospel.

> We of Alcoholics Anonymous have enough inaccurate info already, don't need to

add to it.

>

> Jay

>

> ___________________________________________

>

> Original Message: A complaint about the Wikipedia article on the

Washingtonians said:

>

> The article is fundamentally inaccurate -- even the names of the six founders

are partly inaccurate (taken from a non-authoritative 1878 secondary source). It

doesn't need references; it needs a thorough rewrite.

>


0 -1 0 0
7161 Robert Stonebraker
Indiana history websites Indiana history websites 2/13/2011 1:06:00 PM


Here are AA History websites for Indiana localities, plus, a Big Book

History Site:



Richmond, Indy, State of Indiana history websites, plus a Big Book AA

History Website:



http://www.area23aa.org/a/view/Main/Richmond



Web address for Richmond, Indiana, AA History (50 pages)



http://www.area23aa.org/a/view/Main/Richmond



Web address for Richmond, Indiana, AA History. (50 pages)



http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Indianapolis_AA_History_July_2009.pdf



Web address for Indianapolis AA History (40 pages)



http://www.aamuncie.org/files/History_of_AA_in_Indiana.pdf



History of Indiana AA (9.99 MB) (40 pages) (entire state)



http://www.aabibliography.com/historybb.htm



Web address for Big Book History (21 pages)



(The Richmond, IN, links may take a few minutes to open.)



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
7162 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Indiana history websites Indiana history websites 2/15/2011 4:54:00 PM


For more on Indiana A.A. history also see:



How A.A. Came to Indiana -- http://hindsfoot.org/Nhome.html



================================

"J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in Indiana: Evansville, April 23, 1940"

-- J. D. was from the original Akron A.A. group, the tenth person to get sober

in A.A.



"Early Evansville A.A."

================================

"Doherty Sheerin and the Founding of A.A. in Indianapolis: October 28, 1940"



Neil S. (Fishers IN), "History of Indianapolis A.A."



"Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe) and the Golden Books"

================================

"The Third A.A. Group Started in Indiana: Fort Wayne, December 1941"



John Barleycorn, "A Nun's Story: Sister Ruth Finds God in the A.A. Meetings"



"I'm not a Nice Guy," memorial for Stanley "Skeets" Richards

================================

"The St. Joseph River Valley Region: South Bend, February 22, 1943" -- South

Bend, Mishawaka, Elkhart, and Goshen



The Factory Owner & the Convict



The St. Louis Gambler & the Railroad Man



Ken M., "Drunks Are a Mess"



"Brownie's and the Dignitaries Sympathy Groups"

================================

"The Books the Good Old-Timers Read"

================================

"The A.A. Prison Group Founded in 1944 at the Indiana State Prison at Michigan

City"

================================

"Early Black A.A. along the Chicago-Gary-South Bend Axis"

"The Wisdom of Goshen Bill"

================================

"Adventure of Recovery: The Beginnings of A.A. in Anderson, June 1943-February

9, 1947"

================================

Richmond 1945-46 -- The story began when Bob B., a paint store owner in

Richmond, got sober by visiting a business associate in Philadelphia, a man

named Jim Burwell who had gotten sober in 1938 and had started A.A. in that

city. Jim's story in the Big Book is called "The Vicious Cycle" (it is on page

219 in the current 4th edition).

================================

"Kosciusko County: September 30, 1946"

================================

"Gary, Indiana: John Shaifer's Lead"

================================

"A Brief History of A.A. in Delaware County in Indiana" by Bruce C. (Muncie,

Indiana)

================================

"The Lafayette area: January 1948" -- the home of Purdue University, on the

banks of the Wabash river

================================

"The First A.A. Group in Rensselaer: early 1948"

================================


0 -1 0 0
7163 Charlie C
Re: Emmet Fox''s death Emmet Fox''s death 2/16/2011 11:41:00 AM


The NY Times ran an obituary on 8/18/1951. In brief it noted that Fox had died

the week previous, while in Paris. At the time of his death he was pastor of the

Church of the Healing Christ in NYC.



Fox is described as having come to the U.S. from England in 1930, where in his

younger life he had been an electrical engineer. His original church met in

rooms in several hotels, including the Waldorf-Astoria. His talks as the head of

what was then called the "First Church of Divine Science" drew large crowds in

the 1930s.



The obituary also notes that his book "The sermon on the mount: the key to

success in life, and The Lord's prayer: an interpretation"(a popular and

influential title in early AA) was a popular success, running through a number

of editions.



Charlie Cowling


0 -1 0 0
7164 jax760
Re: The Broad Highway The Broad Highway 2/15/2011 10:22:00 PM


From Tom H. (Texoma Coalition) and John B. (jax760)



- - - -



See Message #6087 from "Texoma Coalition" <t4texas@cox.net> (t4texas at cox.net)



Re: The Broad Highway on page 55 of the Big Book



Hi,

What I understand this term to mean is that A.A. is an ll-encompassing

fellowship where people of all different kinds of beliefs gather to deal with

the problem of alcoholism. Bill is throwing out a term that appears, at least a

first glance, to be a contradiction of what Christ is quoted as saying in the

Bible regarding the gate and way to life being narrow while the gate and way to

destruction is broad. But that's not what Bill is implying here. What he is

saying is that the road to a life of recovery is indeed broad enough for us all

to travel it regardless of what kind of title we might confer on God as we

understand Him.



>>> SERMON ON THE MOUNT (Matthew 7:13-14)

>>> (King James Version)

>>> "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is

>>> the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth

>>> to destruction, and many there be which go

>>> in thereat: because strait is the gate, and

>>> narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,

>>> and few there be that find it."

>>>

>>> "strait" = (archaic) narrow, tight,

>>> constricted, strict



>>> BIG BOOK PAGE 55:

>>> "... deep down in every man, woman, and child,

>>> is the fundamental idea of God .... We found

>>> the Great Reality deep down within us. ....

>>> If our testimony ... encourages you to search

>>> diligently within yourself, then, if you wish,

>>> you can join us on the Broad Highway."



In other words, we're all engulfed in the same problem, but how we work out a

solution through working the steps is not so narrowed down that we can't travel

the broad road to recovery together in spite of our differing understanding of a

Higher Power. The 12 steps are configured in such a way that they lead us to

different levels of spiritual progress as we work them to the best of our

ability. A.A. doesn't claim to provide a path to perfection. We strive for

spiritual progress rather than perfection. And when we reach Step 11, we will

have advanced far enough down the broad highway to spiritual progress that we

will make a practice of improving our conscious contact with God as we

understand Him. In other words, there's plenty of room for everybody in A.A.,

provided of course that they have a desire to stay sober.



So when you think about it, you can see that A.A.'s path to recovery as outlined

in the Big Book is without a doubt a Broad Highway in every sense. No one is

excluded; all are welcomed and afforded the opportunity to grow along spiritual

lines regardless of what their personal concept of a Higher Power might happen

to be. Hope that answers your question, and please note that I'm only voicing my

personal understanding of the term you asked about. I'm not trying to preach.



Sincerely,

Tom H.

Recovering Alcoholic

DOS 12-31-1979



- - - -



From John B. <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)



The writer wrote:



"In the Bible, the term "broad highway" is used in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount."



The phrase as quoted does not appear in the Bible. You can see post 6088 for the

text and useage from Farnol and decide for yourself if it fits.



God Bless



John B



_________________________________________



Matthew 7:12-14 in the King James Version (Authorized Version):



"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even

so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait

gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,

and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is

the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

_________________________________________



The Broad Highway by Jeffery Farnol (1878-1952)

_________________________________________


0 -1 0 0
7165 Jon Markle
Re: The Broad Highway The Broad Highway 2/15/2011 7:52:00 PM


Much as we know that some references in our literature come, anecdotally, from

the Bible, many phrases come from other sources, or are simply a manner of

speech of the time period, to express an idea.



I believe this is the case with the phrases used by the Big Book author here,

"broad" & "Broad Highway". The term obviously taken in the context it is found,

means that the program is big enough for everyone & anyone . . . ROOM enough to

hold all who travel it. Unlimited in scope. The journey path that is

prescribed is wide enough for ALL alcoholics, should they choose to travel it.



There is no litmus test as one might find in most organized religions. Our

society does not deny any traveler access.



One difficulty we have when we approach our literature from the standpoint of a

theologian, we begin to find that pieces do not fit, do not match up. Because,

they are not meant to. Our Book is not an interpretation of scriptures, not a

study in systematic theology, not a hermeneutical treatise. It would fail every

test in those areas. Gratefully.



Jon Markle/BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling

Retired Therapist & SA Counseling

Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S

HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation

Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
7166 A from near Maldon, England,
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/12/2011 5:55:00 AM


The message was just posted noting that Jim Myers has reported more problems

keeping silkworth.net online. His server has raised his rates, because so many

people are using his site.



- - - -



I am grateful this need has been drawn to my attention by a friend even before I

read this posting.



Once one has a PayPal account giving financial support from anywhere in the

world only takes a few Mouse Clicks.



It would be helpful to know how much is needed but if all reading this send $10

or $20 if they can afford it it must surely help in the short term. Then when we

know how the fund stands and how much has been received we can work out how much

more we each might send if we can afford it.



I hope this is a link to the PayPal donation page for Silkworth.net



https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=hcnstKzfOHRHmpKkrQxns\

Vq8ejJniqfwTN11bno5WdfLUKFKzC3GZl2fMKu&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f8e263663d3faee8d\

f1d2b5c147af55b8d54f2944c97d2a2a




I think it is possible to open account from that link, if one wants to

investigate before here is a link to PayPal itself



https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_account



The money is needed to be paid to this email address.



jim.myers56@yahoo.com (jim.myers56 at yahoo.com)



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



You might like to consider this from:-



http://www.silkworth.net/aahistory/study_aahistory.html



"Why Study A.A. History?

=======================



This article is written by nationally recognized historian and

oft-quoted Alcoholics Anonymous archivist Mitchell K.



Why study, or for that matter, even discuss the history of Alcoholics

Anonymous? What difference would it make? How could it affect how we live and

work our own individual recovery? Who cares?



In a quote attributed to Carl Sandburg, he summed it up when he wrote;

"Whenever a civilization or society declines (or perishes) there is always one

condition present - they forgot where they came from."



This quote, often used by Frank M., Archivist for AA General Services

gives a warning to present and future generations of AA members to "Keep It

Green."



The Washingtonians, The Oxford Group and others forgot where they came

from. They watered-down and made changes to their respective movements which

eventually led to their demise. AA members could take notice and begin to learn

their roots. The history of AA can be both educational and fascinating and help

in making the recovery process a fruitful one.



Bill W. stated in 1940 that of those entering AA, 50 percent never drank

again. 25 percent remained sober throughout their lives after experiencing some

early difficulties and the remaining 25 percent could not be accounted for. Bill

stated that 75 percent of AA members back then got well - they recovered.



Group records indicate that in Cleveland, Ohio there was a 93 percent

success rate for recovery in the early 1940's. Could these astounding figures be

attributed to the fact that only low-bottom alcoholics came into AA? Could they

be attributed to the lack of multiple addictions? We think not.



Early records indicate that though a great number of early members were

considered as low-bottom, there were many who entered AA before losing

everything. Both Dr. Bob and Bill had difficulties with drugs other than

alcohol. Bill struggled with these problems until his death in 1971."


0 -1 0 0
7167 Jim Myers
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/12/2011 2:48:00 AM


Thank you AAHistoryLovers for the post about the new problem facing

silkworth.net!

 

Just to keep you good folks up to date, I am working with doteasy.com to meet

their demands to keep silkworth.net online.

 

I have temporarily disabled all mp3 and avi files on silkworth.net until I can

find an affordable solution, hoping that doteasy.com will allow me to stay

online till I find a solution. I have sent them a message similar to this one in

hopes that I get a positive response from them.

 

I am researching online to see what may help in resolving the current hosting

problem. The last message I received from them, they indicated

silkworth.net needs its own dedicated server due to the tremendous amount of

traffic. This research may take a little time but I am confident that a solution

will be found.



Monetarily, I am not in a good position to do what doteasy.com mentioned I

should do, so I am searching the internet for alternatives.

 

The ideal solution would be that I purchase my own server and host silkworth.net

from that server here in my home. At the moment, I am not sure how that should

be set up and I am not sure how that would effect my service with my Time

Warner Road Runner high speed service.

 

I thank all of you for your continued support!

 

Yours in service,

Jim M,

http://www.silkworth.net/



_______________________________________



ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM MY WEB SERVER:



From: Doteasy <DoNotReply@doteasy.com>

To: jim.myers56@yahoo.com

Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 3:00 PM



Hello James,



It has come to our attention that your account ( silkworth.net ) used a lot of

traffic with your MP3 download. Your account has used up 24GB of traffic in just

2 days.



Please note that you are responsible for ensuring that your use of the service

does not consume excessive system or network resources that disrupts the normal

use of the service through, but not limited to, spawning multiple processes,

consuming excessive amounts of memory, CPU or bandwidth usage.



- http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#14



Also, please note that our shared hosting server is not meant to act as a file

sharing/media streaming server: http://www.doteasy.com/Terms/index.cfm?T=TAC#5



We advise you to consider VPS or dedicated server. With VPS (Virtual Private

Server) or Dedicated hosting, your server is dedicated to your needs, which will

allow you to have more control, such as using cron jobs, or installing custom

server software such as streaming media, etc. You can learn more about them at

the following links:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_server



You can refer to the following links for more details and pricing:



http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package

http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/



Please let us know if you would like to upgrade to VPS or dedicated server and

which plan you are interested in.



Thank you.

Regards,

Philip

Doteasy Customer Service


0 -1 0 0
7168 Jim Myers
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/13/2011 5:49:00 AM


It was requested that I post the operating cost on silkworth.net. I have done

so. Currently to date, this is what you will find on the index page as of this

email date which you can visit periodically to see all updates, changes and

current status of silkworth.net.



Current operating costs for silkworth.net are as follows:



Domain name renewal once every five years. Cost: approximately $100.00. Next

renewal date: December 14th, 2015.



I am awaiting to hear from doteasy.com to find out the cost per year to host

silkworth.net on its own dedicated server.



Under my current unlimited hosting package with doteasy.com, it was costing

$119.40 per year by the end of March. I expect that will at least double to meet

the needs of silkworth.net.



Current donations to date: $226.81 USD.



I am very grateful to all of you for your support of silkworth.net. More will be

revealed



Jim M.



(You can visit http://www.silkworth.net/ to view the updates and changes as they

are revealed to me.)



Yours in service,

Jim M,

http://www.silkworth.net/


0 -1 0 0
7169 Al Welch
RE: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/11/2011 10:40:00 PM


From Al Welch, mrpetesplace, Pete K. (greatcir), Clyde G., Charles Knapp, and

Bent Christensen



- - - -



From: "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com> (welch at a-1associates.com)



Tell Jim there are MANY servers available at a modest price. For instance, I

have used Blue Host for a number of years at $97.00 per year with unlimited use.

It has all of the features including 24/7 help line.



- - - -



From: "mrpetesplace" <peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)



It seems that the issue is with the MP3. I know that Mike F. at

recoveryspeakers.org was having to use a dedicated server, you may ask him about

it too.



If you have multiple domains. Ex. silkworth.net, silkworthfile.net,

silkworthdata.com etc. I could host on my package to offset some of the traffic.

You would be set up to take care of it. If you had others that would be willing

to do it as well, it might help.



As for the upgrade, I would look into other companies as well to see what they

do. I use godaddy and about to move some sites to ipage. I would be using both

hostings for different types of sites. I would be keeping AAStuff.com and

WhenManListens.com at my Dovewind package. You may want to look into both of

them as well. You might be surprised on some deals you might be able to find.



In addition to godaddy and ipage, you may want to look into hostgater and

fatcow. I looked into those ones as well but this was like 6 months ago and I

wasn't looking into a dedicated server.



Also, I don't know if streaming using more band width than a simple downloaded

file, but if it does, maybe you can eliminate streaming and go with just

downloads and they can play them after it is loaded.



Anyway, If you don't have multiple domains, we still might be able to work

something out.



Peter



- - - -



From: pete kopcsak <greatcir@gmail.com> (greatcir at gmail.com)



Can one charge for MP3 downloads and have some cash left over to pay the rest of

the bill?



- - - -



From: "CloydG" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net> (cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)



Why not pass the basket, 7th Tradition? Clyde G.



- - - -



From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com> (cpknapp at yahoo.com)



My only question is what is the cost to keep this site going? I have made

donations over the last couple of years. Maybe what I thought was a good

donation was not even a drop in the bucket. Has been my experience when AA

members are given a need in dollar amounts the need is usually met.



Thanks



Charles from Wisconsin



- - - -



From: "bent_christensen5" <bent_christensen5@yahoo.com> (bent_christensen5 at

yahoo.com)



With that kind if trafic I think it is only fair that doteasy.com suggest that

you get a better hosting solution. Besides the limit the site would benefit from

an upgrade to because the downtime would be less and the vistors would get a

faster reply and download.



Since I am living in Denmark uptill now I haven't support silkworth.net but I

would be happy to do.



I do understand that $ 20 a month is a lot of money for you, but together we

should easily be able to gather the money together.



Normally I use paypal but as far as I understand you have some problems with

that, Jim?



Best regards

Bent


0 -1 0 0
7170 Tim S
Re: keeping silkworth.net online -- use torrent files? keeping silkworth.net online -- use torrent files? 2/13/2011 2:51:00 AM


Perhaps torrents would solve the problem. The you only need to host a very small

torrent file and the community would then host the files and share the traffic

among many.



____________________________________________



From Glenn C. the moderator: WHAT IS A TORRENT FILE?



see http://ask-leo.com/whats_a_torrent.html



What is a torrent file and can it be broken down to smaller files and recorded

to CDs/DVDs?



Torrents, typically ending in ".torrent", are control files for the peer-to-peer

file sharing technology called BitTorrent.



It's actually pretty cool technology that really just boils down to another way

to download files. So really, you just use .torrent files to download other

files.



BitTorrent is a distributed file distribution technology. Yes, "distributed

distribution". When you download a file using BitTorrent, the file is actually

broken up into chunk that your BitTorrent client program then downloads and

reassembles into the final file as the pieces arrive. To over-simplify, what

makes it interesting are two things:



The different chunks you download can all be coming from different machines. A

BitTorrent client will connect to many other BitTorrent clients and download

several chunks at once, in random order. In the long run this makes the protocol

fairly efficient, and very nicely scalable - the more BitTorrent clients that

are serving up a given file, the faster other clients can download it.



As you start collecting chunks of the file, your BitTorrent client will start

making those chunks available for downloading to other BitTorrent clients, and

will become a part of the peer-to-peer file distribution network.



The ".torrent" file is simply the bootstrap for this whole process. You download

that normally, for example in your web browser, and then it is read by your

BitTorrent client. It has the information that the BitTorrent client then uses

to begin to locate other BitTorrent clients that are serving up the file you're

interested in.



"Torrent" is sometimes used to refer to the file being shared using BitTorrent,

but a ".torrent" file is a specific file with specific information that is used

to bootstrap the file download.



Note I haven't talked at all about what kinds of files are actually being

downloaded. That's because the answer is "any". Typically the types of files

being shared using BitTorrent are large - audio files, video files and programs.

But just saying "a torrent" doesn't tell you what it is or what you can do with

it.



Let's get concrete. Let's say you've discovered that some "Public Domain Movie"

is available via a torrent. You download the ".torrent" file, and open it in

your BitTorrent client. It then goes out to the internet, locates other

BitTorrent clients that are serving up that file, and begins downloading all the

various chunks until it has a complete copy of the file. When it's all done,

you'll end up with something like a "PublicDomainMovie.avi" file. Or ".mpg",

".mov" or something else. What you then do with that file is up to you. Yep, you

could burn that file to a CD or DVD, but that's all something you would do after

it's downloaded, and has nothing to do with the fact that you got it via

BitTorrent.



I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with BitTorrent clients, so I

can't really recommend one over the other, but I have used Azureus successfully,

and it seems to be one of the more popular BitTorrent clients. I will warn you

that all of the BitTorrent clients I've seen to date are still in the "geeky"

stage, meaning that they sort of assume you know what you're doing to begin

with. It's not a steep learning curve, but it will seem pretty obscure at first.


0 -1 0 0
7171 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? Are there any Wikipedia editors here who know about the Washingtonians? 2/15/2011 6:43:00 PM


On the dangers of looking something up on wikipedia first, and stopping there

and assuming that this information is accurate, and not reading anything else:



Just because a "source" is commonly used "first" does not mean

that it is accurate or best. Millions of people use Facebook too!


0 -1 0 0
7172 ckbudnick
Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons 2/13/2011 1:47:00 PM


Greetings!



I'm posting this with the hopes that some people may information or leads.



Along with a couple of friends, we have been researching the transmission of the

program of Alcoholics Anonymous during the late 40's and 50's to straight

addicts and those who had "dual problems" (alcohol and other drugs). We have

also been researching AA's response to the growing number of straight addicts

and dual problem members who were joining Alcoholics Anonymous.



We've discovered that the expansion of twelfth step work to jails and prisons by

some early members played a major role in facilitating the increased interest in

Alcoholics Anonymous by those who were not "simon-pure alcoholics" (to borrow

and expression we've read).



One early member of AA in Southern California who was a pioneer in this area was

a man named Jack Prohs. I believe that he passed away in 2002 with over 50

years of sobriety. We are interested in finding out if anyone knew him or knew

if he had children who we might be able to interview.



There is an article in the LA Times (1985) where Jack Prohs talks about the

passing of Beatrice Jorgensen.



"Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women alcoholics in

the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los Angeles County

Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House."



Does anyone know if Beatrice Jorgensen was previously Beatrice Follett?



Another person of great interest to us is a woman named Betty Thom, along with

her husband Larry Thom. Betty was very involved in corresponding with prison

based AA groups throughout the country as well as carrying the message into

jails, prisons and institutions. She and her husband moved to Santa Monica and

her husband Larry became very involved with the Bay Area AA Rehabilitation

Center.



Does anyone know anything about Betty and Larry?



Thanks so much.





Chris B.

Raleigh, NC


0 -1 0 0
7173 Alex H
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/16/2011 6:17:00 PM


On 2/12/2011 1:48 AM, Jim Myers wrote:

>

>

> The ideal solution would be that I purchase my own server and host

> silkworth.net from that server here in my home. At the moment, I am

> not sure how that should be set up and I am not sure how that would

> effect my service with my Time Warner Road Runner high speed service.

>



Without getting too technical... having a home server will not solve

your bandwidth issue. It will only change the person who will be yelling

at you for chewing up all the bandwidth. However, if you can offload the

audio and video to some podcast audio place or YouTube, you can run your

server at home using your domain name for the server and link to the

audio/video at those other places. They will take the bandwidth hit. Not

you.



If you are not familiar with UNIX at the console level, forget about

setting up your own server.



The home server set up I am experimenting with is at...

http://refounder1.gets-it.net/wordpress



1. Roadrunner ... full home package. Fastest they have. (Not the

Signature package. I don't need my toes manicured too. :-))

2. New router... Net Gear WNDR 3400, a mid-range, router with "Dynamic

DNS" and port-forwarding.

4. I paid $15 for a simple yearly account with http://www.DynDNS.org to

get a domain name to point to my home server. You pay more for

additional services. There are free accounts available but they are a

pain. Pay for the real services.

5. Dell Computer (5 years old and unused) with 160 Gig hard drive.

6. Debian or Ubuntu Linux. (I prefer Debian but Ubuntu is easier to set

up and there is more help online.)



Obviously there is more to setting this up than I am saying here but

remember that the high-speed bandwidth they advertise on TV is the

DOWNLOAD speed... NOT the UPLOAD speed that you will need. Your users

will experience a slow server when getting audio/video files from your

home server because your home upload bandwidth is limited (probably

throttled to discourage customers from doing the very thing you are

trying to do right now).



If your goal is to disseminate audio/video for historical purposes to

academia you might offer short audio samples and then sell a CD to them

at cost or set up a store at PayPal and charge some minimum to cover the

bandwidth costs. In the old days any research professor would limit the

requests for data by requiring those requesting the data to pay for

copying costs. If academia is who you are serving, then they ought to be

familiar with this.



Alex H.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
7174 John Moore
Re: Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons Early members from Southern California and meetings in jails/prisons 2/16/2011 10:23:00 PM


*"Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women

alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los

Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House."



Here is a personal anecdote about Bea Jorgensen and the Friendly House if

you all don't mind. I was a newcomer in 1972, living in Laguna Beach Cal.

I was down on my luck and making $2 per hour as a house painter. I was the

most inept painter on the crew but I was getting by somehow. What few

possessions I still had when I got sober were gone. Apartment, furniture,

nice job, car, money...I lost it all, mainly due to a big case of sober self

will run riot.



I got a new sponsor and started into the steps in earnest. I hoped to some

day I might get another car, but calling for rides and hitching lifts after

meetings was getting me where I needed to go. As I moved through the steps

my life began to calm down. One day my sponsor told me that he heard the

Friendly House in Los Angeles was getting a new car and that the old one, a

Chevy Nova, was for sale. Price $200. I knew I could put the money

together and I asked him if he would drive me up to L.A.



The Friendly House was a big old house somewhere near downtown and was the

first woman's halfway house in L.A. They told me Bea Jorgensen was the

person I should see; she was the manager or something. I figured I would

check out the car, kick the tires, look under the hood, find a few things

that were wrong, and haggle a better price.



I was wrong. Bea asked me into her office, sat me down, and started to ask

me questions. She began grilling me in a nice way, as to what step was I

working, who was my sponsor, what home group did I belong to, how many

meetings was I going to, how long since my last drink... her questions went

on and on. What the heck does all this have to do with buying a car, I

wondered. Somewhere in the process, my plan of haggling price went out the

window. I was the one being inspected, not the car. It began to dawn on me

that she wanted to know if I good enough for their car, and not the other

way around.



At the end of the interview she leaned back in her chair and told me ok, I

had passed muster, and I could buy the car, it would be $200. Did I want to

see it? By that point I was thoroughly buffaloed. This had not gone the way

I planned. I told Bea, no, not necessary, I will take it. I gave her the

money and she handed me the keys and told me where it was parked. That was

the last I saw of Bea and the first I saw of the car. She made a big

impression on me and taught me something that day about trust. We AA's

march to the tune of a different drummer. Her knowing whether I was walking

the walk was more important than money, and strangely enough, it kinda made

sense to me.



That little Chevy Nova opened many doors for me. (Bald tires were a problem

but at a meeting I ran into someone who had a gas station and he sold used

tires. He gave me a set for only $15 each and got me fixed up) A good job

came my way; a man who was sober for 15 years was going to train a salesman

and looking for someone on the program. I went to see him and he hired me.

He taught me a new trade and my little Chevy Nova took me around to my

customers and I prospered. I went on to enjoy a business career spanning 30

years from that humble beginning.



I heard afterward that that Bea's story was being made for TV and that she

was becoming famous or something, but from my meeting with her, I knew she

was not a "Hollywood" type. Bea was a woman of principle, a sober AA member

doing service for her fellow woman as best she could. There is a lot to

admire about Beatrice Jorgensen.



Yours in AA,



John M

Early Risers Group

Burlington Vermont US

DOS Dec 7 1971











*

*On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 1:47 PM, ckbudnick <cbudnick@nc.rr.com> wrote:

*

>

> * *

>

> *Greetings!

>

> I'm posting this with the hopes that some people may information or leads.

> * *

>

> Along with a couple of friends, we have been researching the transmission

> of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous during the late 40's and 50's to

> straight addicts and those who had "dual problems" (alcohol and other

> drugs). We have also been researching AA's response to the growing number of

> straight addicts and dual problem members who were joining Alcoholics

> Anonymous.* *

>

> We've discovered that the expansion of twelfth step work to jails and

> prisons by some early members played a major role in facilitating the

> increased interest in Alcoholics Anonymous by those who were not "simon-pure

> alcoholics" (to borrow and expression we've read).* *

>

> One early member of AA in Southern California who was a pioneer in this

> area was a man named Jack Prohs. I believe that he passed away in 2002 with

> over 50 years of sobriety. We are interested in finding out if anyone knew

> him or knew if he had children who we might be able to interview.* *

>

> There is an article in the LA Times (1985) where Jack Prohs talks about the

> passing of Beatrice Jorgensen.* *

>

> "Prohs said Mrs. Jorgensen worked at first as a counselor to women

> alcoholics in the County Jail, then, with the help of officials in the Los

> Angeles County Sheriff's Department, started Friendly House."* *

>

> Does anyone know if Beatrice Jorgensen was previously Beatrice Follett?* *

>

> Another person of great interest to us is a woman named Betty Thom, along

> with her husband Larry Thom. Betty was very involved in corresponding with

> prison based AA groups throughout the country as well as carrying the

> message into jails, prisons and institutions. She and her husband moved to

> Santa Monica and her husband Larry became very involved with the Bay Area AA

> Rehabilitation Center.* *

>

> Does anyone know anything about Betty and Larry? * *

>

> Thanks so much.* *

>

> Chris B.* *

> Raleigh, NC

>

> *

> * **

> *

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
7175 bikergaryg@aol.com
Book sale to keep silkworth.net online -- 2nd ed. Big Book Book sale to keep silkworth.net online -- 2nd ed. Big Book 2/16/2011 11:07:00 AM


I will place a 2nd edition big book with a new replacement dust-jacket on E-BAY

and donate those funds to silkworth.net.



E-bay does not charge me a fee if I am donating the funds.

this is a great site and needs to stay open.



You can also donate using pay-pal, I just did and it is very easy: go to

http://silkworth.net/ and you will find the gold Pay Pal seal and Donate button

at the bottom of the left hand column.



Hope this will help some.



bikergaryg



New Jersey


0 -1 0 0
7176 Bill Lash
AA History Weekend Flyer AA History Weekend Flyer 2/22/2011 10:37:00 AM


ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS HISTORY WEEKEND IV

“THE EARLY YEARS”

(East Dorset, Vermont is also having its 250-year anniversary celebration &

history tour this same weekend)



with John B. from South Orange NJ & Barefoot Bill from West Milford NJ



Both Past History & Archives Committee Chairpersons of Area 44 (North NJ)



August 19 – 21, 2011



At The Wilson House (where Bill W. was born)

378 Village Street

East Dorset, Vermont 05253



John B. has been overly passionate about AA history for a long time. He will be

doing a presentation on “The First 40 Members of AA” and a picture presentation

called “The Men Who Came to Believe” about William James, Carl Jung & Dr.

Silkworth.



Barefoot Bill has been studying and collecting AA history since 1994. He will

be doing a presentation called “Bill W.’s Younger Years” and a picture

presentation on the people, places & things associated with AA history mentioned

in the Big Book.



Saturday afternoon Bonnie L. & Barefoot Bill will also be doing a 2 & 1/2 hour

sightseeing grand tour of all the AA history spots in & around East Dorset,

Vermont



Schedule:

Friday night 8/20/10 9:00 to 10:00pm – AA history movie (popcorn provided)

Saturday morning 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:20am – Bill W.’s Younger Years

Saturday morning 8/21/10 10:40 to 11:55am – The Men Who Came to Believe

Saturday afternoon 8/21/10 1:00 to 3:30pm – A sightseeing grand tour of all

the AA history spots in & around East Dorset VT by Bonnie L. & Barefoot Bill

Saturday night 8/21/10 9:00 to 10:00pm – AA history movie (popcorn provided)

Sunday morning 8/22/10 9:00 to 10:20am – The First 40 Members of AA

Sunday morning 8/22/10 10:40 to 11:55am – The AA History Mentioned in the

Big Book



For weekend and overnight reservations please call the Wilson House at

802-362-5524.

For more information please call Barefoot Bill at 201-232-8749 (cell).


0 -1 0 0
7177 Allan Gengler
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/16/2011 4:34:00 PM


I host a few sites through Fatcow and they have a good deal right now.



http://www.fatcow.com/



Allan J. Gengler



____________________________________________



http://www.allangengler.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/algengler/

agengler@wk.net

agengler@allangengler.com

agengler@gmail.com



Mac OS X Leopard Rulez

Be an organ donor, tell a friend.

Yeshua is the man


0 -1 0 0
7178 Jim Myers
Updated current operating costs of silkworth.net Updated current operating costs of silkworth.net 2/18/2011 1:36:00 AM


The following is somewhat what you will find on the index page of silkworth.net

about its current problem it is facing:



-------------------------------------------



Current operating costs for silkworth.net are as follows:



Domain name renewal once every five years. Cost: approximately $100.00. Next

renewal date: December 14th, 2015.



Response from doteasy.com 02/13/11 to find out the cost per year to host

silkworth.net on a dedicated server or VPSHosting - keeping in mind, in January,

350.4 Gigabytes of traffic to this site.



These are the only options doteasy.com are offering to fully restore

silkworth.net:



>>> http://in2net.com/VPSHosting/#package (Virtual Private Server) or

 

>>> http://www.in2net.com/DedicatedServers/, silkworth.net having its own

server (their partner company).



I am also looking into a few other options.



Current donations through Pay Pal to date: $456.89 USD. I also received a grant

for $3,000 from the "Serving The Spirit Foundation". Even though silkworth.net

is not a group, the grant meets the requirements of A.A.'s 7th Tradition.



I am very grateful to all of you for your support of silkworth.net.



More will be revealed....~Jim M.



-------------------------------------------



I have until the end of March to resolve the current hosting problem. I am also

very grateful for the feedback and great ideas I have received from some of you

that has helped me in the decision process - which includes the elimination of a

couple of ideas I was looking into.



Yours in service,

Jim M,

silkworth.net



=============================================

"Let us also remember to guard that erring member - the tongue, and if we must

use it, let's use it with kindness and consideration and tolerance." -Dr. Bob,

Sunday, July 30, 1950

http://silkworth.net/aahistory/drbob_farewell.html

=============================================


0 -1 0 0
7179 joe
Clarence S and Fort Knox Clarence S and Fort Knox 2/22/2011 6:31:00 AM


I am currently stationed at Fort Knox, and as an AA history lover, I am

interested in Clarence's time here at Fort Knox for officer training recorded in

"How It Worked" chapter 6. The letter from the Louisville AA office invited him

to the meeting at 3rd and Kentucky St. The distance he would have had to travel

to the meeting from Fort Knox was equivalent to going from Cleveland to Akron.



I am curious to know, did Clarence ever write back, attend the group, or

otherwise interact with AA in Kentucky during his training?


0 -1 0 0
7180 victor v
Who carried the message of AA into Italy? Who carried the message of AA into Italy? 2/17/2011 11:03:00 AM


Who carried the A.A. message into Italy? And when?


0 -1 0 0
7181 James Blair
Re: Who carried the message of AA into Italy? Who carried the message of AA into Italy? 2/22/2011 10:10:00 PM


Victor wrote: Who carried the A.A. message into Italy? And when?



From unpublished AA World History Manuscript (1985)





A.A. was also very slow to get started among the Italians. Like Paris, Rome

had an English-speaking group in the early 1960's, which has continued until

the present. But repeated attempts to reach the Italians met with failure

except for a few bi-lingual individuals. Then, in the early '70's, a member

of the Italian parliament now known as Carlo #1, a big, imposing man, was

such a bad drunk that he was in danger of losing his post. He heard of the

English-speaking A.A. group in Rome and began attending meetings-even though

he did not understand English. The message was carried to him through an

interpreter. Carlo absorbed enough of the program to get sober, stay sober,

and carry the message to other Italian alcoholics. This had to be done

verbally, since there was no literature in Italian.







One day in March 1975, a doctor called on Carlo #1 to speak with a patient

in the hospital who had alcoholic neuritis so severely he was confined to a

wheelchair and was feared near the end. The patient was Roberto C., who was

to become the father of Italian A.A. Roberto-the only son of the Helen Hayes

of Italian theater, film and TV, and her producer-husband, who were

constantly on the road-was reared by an uncle in a villa in Florence and

educated in private schools. After serving in the war, he became a noted

journalist, living for eight years as a correspondent in the U.S., where he

became completely fluent in English. He also progressed into raging,

desperate alcoholism, which got him deported back to Italy. There, despite

periodic flashes of success on newspapers and national television, he

continued to sink into sickness and eventual repeated hospitalization, which

left him with a noticeable limp today. As soon as he was able after meeting

Carlo, Roberto began attending the English-speaking A.A. group. With a

consuming desire to stop drinking and as at home in English as in Italian,

Roberto literally immersed himself in Alcoholics Anonymous. He read, re -

read and absorbed every word of the Big Book and the other literature. With

a deep spiritual base to his fractured life, he was awed by A.A.'s message

of the need for spiritual change. And he began forthwith to carry the

message to Italian alcoholics.







When he had been sober less than two years, Roberto's renowned but aged

mother became ill. Roberto, who had squandered a sizeable amount of his

mother's money during his drinking, now felt he owed her great amends, so he

went with her to a family villa in the country, where he remained at her

side until she died. During these two years of isolation and devotion,

Roberto says, "What did I have to do, but translate the Big Book into

Italian?" With the help of other fledgling A.A.'s, Roberto then spearheaded

an effort to publish the Italian Big Book (with financial assistance from

A.A. World Services). He brought the first copy with him to the

International Convention in New Orleans in 1980, where he presented it to

Lois W. In his brief presentation talk, he announced proudly that Italy then

had seven A.A. groups.







Upon his return, he went through his native country like a Johnny Appleseed,

sowing A.A. groups everywhere. In Rome, Carlo E., a wealthy businessman,

joined up and used his own money to underwrite the translating and

publishing of all the A.A. literature into Italian and the opening of a

General Service Office to augment the intergroup which had already been

established. A General Service Board was formed in October 1979, and after a

great deal of controversy and several false starts, the first General

Service Conference was held in 1984. By 1985, with appropriate gratitude for

his part in getting Italian A.A. off to a flying start, Carlo E. was

persuaded to halt his personal financial support and make the groups more

reliant on their own contributions.







In the autumn of 1985, Italian A.A. held its own convention to celebrate the

50th Anniversary of A.A.'s founding. About 700 spirited A.A.'s and their

families turned up for the gathering, which was held in the Adriatic resort

town of Rimini, where they heard Bob P., G.S.O. general manager, with

Roberto C. translating the talk. At that time, there were over 100 A.A.

groups in Italy, with new ones forming almost every day, and membership

totaled over 4,000.


0 -1 0 0
7182 James Blair
Re: Clarence S and Fort Knox Clarence S and Fort Knox 2/22/2011 10:51:00 PM


I took a quick look at the Cleveland Centeral Bulletins and in the December

1942 issue a letter from Clarence Snyder was published. He stated that he

had very little personal time but that he had been asked to speak at a

meeting in Louisville and had been granted special leave for the occasion.



He also mentioned that the Louisville AA's had been bringing fellows to Ft.

Knox to have him speak to them on a personal basis.



Hope this helps.



Jim B.



- - - -



Original message:



>I am currently stationed at Fort Knox, and as an AA history lover, I am

>interested in Clarence's time here at Fort Knox for officer training

>recorded in "How It Worked" chapter 6. The letter from the Louisville AA

>office invited him to the meeting at 3rd and Kentucky St. The distance he

>would have had to travel to the meeting from Fort Knox was equivalent to

>going from Cleveland to Akron.



> I am curious to know, did Clarence ever write back, attend the group, or

> otherwise interact with AA in Kentucky during his training?


0 -1 0 0
7183 The Wilsons
Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 2/18/2011 4:55:00 PM


In the book The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, Tradition 4 talks

about the setup of an AA service complex: a treatment center that would provide

financial aid, medical care, recovery help etc.



It also talks about 61 rules that were drawn up. A fellow at a meeting the other

night said that he recalled that at one time he thought he saw a list of 108

different rules that came from various groups.



Was the AA treatment center really started somewhere? Where was it at?



So we have the list of 61 rules?



Bob Wilson

Port Orchard, Washington


0 -1 0 0
7184 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 2/23/2011 3:06:00 PM


Rule 62 and Wombley's Clapboard Factory



Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions pp. 147-149:

Rule No. 62, "Don't take yourself too damn seriously."

______________________________



Message 2324 from "Mark Morse" <markm@eauclaire.lib.wi.us>

(markm at eauclaire.lib.wi.us)



Wombley's clapboard factory



Regarding the "explosion in Wombley's Clapboard Factory," there was an Edgar

Wombley, Chemist, in Chittenden County, Vermont, before the turn of the century.

The Mad River Valley, which housed such early clapboard mills as that of the

Ward family first in Duxbury, then in Moretwown, ran through Chittenden county.

______________________________



Message 1610 from Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



I had a discussion with Ozzie Lepper who runs the Wison House in East Dorset and

he claims that the foundations of the clapboard factory can still be seen.

______________________________



The full story, pp. 147-149 from the chapter in the Twelve Steps & Twelve

Traditions on the Fourth Tradition ("Each group should be autonomous except in

matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole"):



Every group had the right to be wrong.

When A.A. was still young, lots of eager groups were forming. In a town

we'll call Middleton, a real crackerjack had started up. The townspeople were

as hot as firecrackers about it. Stargazing, the elders dreamed of

innovations. They figured the town needed a great big alcoholic center, a kind

of pilot plant A.A. groups could duplicate everywhere. Beginning on the ground

floor there would be a club; in the second story they would sober up drunks and

hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck would house and

educational project - quite controversial, of course. In imagination the

gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three would do for a

start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's money. Believe it

or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea.

There were, though, a few conservative dissenters among the alcoholics.

they wrote the Foundation*, A.A.'s headquarters in New York, wanting to know

about this sort of streamlining. They understood that the elders, just to nail

things down good, were about to apply to the Foundation for a charter. These

few were disturbed and skeptical.

[*In 1954, the name of the Alcoholic Foundation, Inc., was changed to the

General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc., and the Foundation office

is now the General Service Office.]

Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his

eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could

issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication

and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the

promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly

painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town.

Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one

rules and regulations were adopted.

But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. Confusion replaced

serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if

they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe

with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care

of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three

floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming

club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized,

then graduated to education on the third floor. It was a beehive of activity,

all right, but unlike a beehive, it was confusion compounded. An A.A. group, as

such, simply couldn't handle this sort of project. All too late that was

discovered. Then came the inevitable explosion - something like that day the

boiler burst in Wombley's Clapboard Factory. A chill chokedamp of fear and

frustration fell over the group.

When that lifted, a wonderful thing had happened. The head promoter wrote

the Foundation office. He said he wished he'd paid attention to A.A.

experience. Then he did something else that was to become an A.A. classic. It

all went on a little card about golf-score size. The cover read: "Middleton

Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was unfolded, a single pungent sentence

leaped to the eye: "Don't take yourself too damn seriously."

Thus it was that under Tradition Four an A.A. group had exercised its right

to be wrong.


0 -1 0 0
7185 Corey
Parkhurst relatives Parkhurst relatives 2/18/2011 6:28:00 PM


If you know of any of Hank Parkhurst's relatives or are one would you have them

contact me asap? We need your help. THX!



Corey F.

<erb2b@yahoo.com> (erb2b at yahoo.com)

THX!


0 -1 0 0
7186 WendiT
Joe Quinn Joe Quinn 2/18/2011 7:34:00 PM


Hello,



I am doing an article on Joe Quinn for an alano club newsletter.



Joe Quinn got sober in Los Angeles on December 21st, 1952, and passed away on

July 25th 2000.



Folks are telling me Joe spoke all over the country and was known all over. I

have had a great opportunity to talk to many whose lives he touched.



I thought I would ask if there are any oldtimers our there with additional

stories.



Thank you,



Wendi

<wenditurner@gmail.com>

(wenditurner at gmail.com)


0 -1 0 0
7187 Aalogsdon
Hiding a bad motive under a pretended good motive Hiding a bad motive under a pretended good motive 2/20/2011 1:10:00 PM


Need help identifying source for the quotation which goes something like "hiding

a bad motive under a good motive." Appreciate any help.



<aalogsdon@aol.com>

(aalogsdon at aol.com)



- - - -



From Glenn C. the moderator

<glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



The first passage that springs to my mind is the one at the end of the chapter

on Step 10 in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (page 94):



"As we glance down the debit side of the day's ledger, we should carefully

examine our motives in each thought or act that appears to be wrong. In most

cases our motives won't be hard to see and understand. When prideful, angry,

jealous, anxious, or fearful, we acted accordingly, and that was that. Here we

need only recognize that we did act or think badly, try to visualize how we

might have done better, and resolve with God's help to carry these lessons over

into tomorrow, making, of course, any amends still neglected."



"But in other instances only the closest scrutiny will reveal what our true

motives were. There are cases where our ancient enemy, rationalization, has

stepped in and has justified conduct which was really wrong. The temptation here

is to imagine that we had good motives and reasons when we really didn't."



"We 'constructively criticized' someone who needed it, when our real motive was

to win a useless argument. Or, the person concerned not being present, we

thought we were helping others to understand him, when in actuality our true

motive was to feel superior by pulling him down. We sometimes hurt those we love

because they need to be 'taught a lesson,' when we really want to punish. We

were depressed and complained we felt bad, when in fact we were mainly asking

for sympathy and attention. This odd trait of mind and emotion, this perverse

wish to hide a bad motive underneath a good one, permeates human affairs from

top to bottom."



Can anyone in the AAHistoryLovers come up with another possible source for this

quote?


0 -1 0 0
7188 Jim M
Keeping everyone up to date: maintaining silkworth.net online Keeping everyone up to date: maintaining silkworth.net online 2/22/2011 10:53:00 PM


There are many Hosting providers who offer packages similar to Fatcow, including

my current provider, doteasy.com. Here's the problem. Their "unlimited" packages

do offer the unlimited bandwidth, but you have to read the fine print. With

Fatcow their "unlimited" means up to SMALL businesses. With my hosting provider

their "unlimited" means SMALL to MEDIUM

businesses.



My provider doteasy.com says silkworth.net is considered, if you read between

the lines as they have already reminded me twice, LARGER THAN A MEDIUM medium

business.



Don't get me wrong here, we all know silkworth.net is not a business. The site

primarily archives much AA history material (along with other related

information) made available to the general public free of charge, and is

self-supporting. And it is my hopes that more folks will send in more AA history

material making silkworth.net the largest data base of AA history material in

the world made available publicly via the world wide web - which is a big plus

for any AA member or for folks who are just interested, seeking, researching

etc... etc... such information.



Since I have gotten enough donations to do so, I am probably going to have

silkworth.net moved to a Private Virtual Server at a cost of $468.00 per year,

which allows up to 500 Gigabytes of traffic in any given month. Last month,

silkworth.net got 350.4 Gigabytes of traffic. Of course, this threw up red flags

with my hosting provider. I can live with this and you may see additional

changes in the site in the future.



Today, I opened a bank account in the name of "silkworth.net" so if anyone

wishes to donate by check, they can make it out to silkworth.net - not to me or

any other individual. At the moment this account only requires one signature.

Other signatures can be added. So, for the moment, the account will only have

the name "Silkworth.net." Once the LLC License has been purchased (pretty

cheap), the changes will be made with the account to show the account as, for

example: Silkworth.net LLC (I believe cheaper than going the route of Company or

Incorporated).



Doing this much is also possible due to a grant that silkworth.net received in

the amount of $3,000.00, in which the bank account was created at Wachovia (all

soon to be known as Wells Fargo - in almost all of these United States, with the

exception of about seven States, I think). I also made sure the grant met all

requirements of AA's Tradition 7.



Just keeping you up to date.....



Yours in service,

Jim M.


0 -1 0 0
7189 ron.fulkerson@comcast.net
Rule 62 and Wombley''s Clapboard Factory Rule 62 and Wombley''s Clapboard Factory 2/23/2011 4:21:00 PM


The old foundation to Wombley's Clapboard Factory still exists and can be seen

behind the post office in East Dorset ... ronf


0 -1 0 0
7190 Mike
Living amends Living amends 2/21/2011 8:26:00 AM


I've heard AA'ers talk about 'living amends', but I've never read about it in

our literature. Does anyone know what it means or if it has any substantive

roots in AA?



Thanks, Mike


0 -1 0 0
7191 amelialoomis
changing the 12 steps changing the 12 steps 2/23/2011 6:33:00 PM


Does anyone know of the 12-steps being changed in our history? This could be

individual meetings, regions, or meeting directory policies. After all this

time there must be some documentation of the struggles on this.



Thanks, Amelia


0 -1 0 0
7192 Glenn Chesnut
More on the doctoral thesis about Emmet Fox More on the doctoral thesis about Emmet Fox 2/23/2011 7:28:00 PM


We already referred to the little biography of Emmet Fox in Chapter 2 of this

doctoral thesis. The entire thesis can be read at:



http://uir.unisa.ac.za/handle/10500/2026



"The Religious Thought of Emmet Fox in

the Context of the New Thought Movement"

by Maré Venter

submitted for the degree of Doctor of Literature and Philosophy

in the subject Religious Studies

at the University of South Africa

under the supervision of Prof. J. S. Krüger

30 November 2004



Abstract: The religious significance of Emmet Fox (1886-1951), a pioneer in the

New Thought movement, is the focus of this study. The relevance of Fox's

religious thought will be determined in reference to and in the context of

contemporary theorist Ken Wilber's theoretical framework of integral

hermeneutics. On the basis of Fox's primary writings, biographical information,

the ideas and philosophy of modern New Thought scholars and Wilber's literature,

Fox's religious thought was interpreted and evaluated. Aspects of Fox's belief,

such as creative mind, scientific prayer, meditation and healing, concepts such

as God, Jesus Christ, death, reincarnation, karma and end times, as well as his

method of biblical exegesis are discussed. It becomes apparent that Emmet Fox,

preacher and teacher, had never intended to provide a scientific or academic

structural doctrine in which to deliver his teaching. His non-conformist,

simple, yet well thought-through beliefs, which include esoteric, eastern and

universal truths, focused on the fundamental truths that are necessary for

humanity's evolutionary development. This approach made Fox's teaching valuable

to his audience of the time, a changing American consciousness, as well as

appropriate to a transformational South Africa, where it is relevant in bridging

the various cultures, languages, and religious beliefs within a continuously

changing spiritually minded population, and most of all, beneficial to every

person's inner spiritual journey towards ultimate enlightenment. Fox's

underlying religious belief is that `the thought is the thing' and this endorses

the whole of the New Thought teaching, which states that `whatever the mind can

conceive and believe, it can achieve' or `be ye transformed by the renewing of

your mind'. Probably the most remarkable feature of his religious thinking is

his popular allegorical interpretation of the Bible, which he interprets

spiritually. It is apparent that there is an affinity between the religious

thought of Emmet Fox and that of Wilber. Although the intent of this study is

not to compare these scholars, it is interesting and valuable to Fox's

interpretation that they advocate a similar underlying belief in the holistic

Kosmos and the importance of having an integral vision.


0 -1 0 0
7194 Glenn Chesnut
How many copies of 12-and-12 published? How many copies of 12-and-12 published? 2/24/2011 4:17:00 PM


From D. B. in England:



How many copies of the 12-and-12 have been published? I know the Big Book is

over 30 million world wide but I cannot find out about the 12-and-12. I did

email GSO New York some weeks ago but they have not answered.


0 -1 0 0
7195 Phillip Baker
Re: Living amends Living amends 2/23/2011 6:35:00 PM


From Philip Baker, John Wikelius, Bob Gordon, Amelia, and Dov W.



- - - -



From: Phillip Baker <phillip@freewolf.net> (phillip at freewolf.net)



Hey Mike,



What Living Amends is about is changing behavior moving forward. The big book

implies about living amends in numerous sentences in the section on amends:

"There is a long period of reconstruction ahead"

"The spiritual life is not a theory we have to live it"

"There may be some wrongs we can never fully right"



So I may have been unfaithful in a relationship. The other person does not want

to talk with me, or I cannot find them, or they have died. A living amends in

that case would be making sure I am never unfaithful in another relationship

again. I.e. changing the behavior.



There is a risk in this however: there is an easy road that is not really an

amends. And a great many people in program try to use that "out." In the above

case maybe I never really actually do the work to locate the person, and just

say "ah, I will do a living amends." It is my character defects just popping up

trying to help me avoid a painful experience of confronting my demons.



I strongly recommend and believe that I am not in a place to determine if I

should be making a living amends. That is for a determination to be made with my

spiritual guide after talking with them about it and exhausting other

possibilities.



But by and large I always believe something more direct can be done, either

through a dead letter, surrogate amends, or something else. A living amends is

almost always a last resort, unless in making amends to someone that is what

they ask of me.



I remember hearing one speaker talk about stealing a bible from a priest. When

he went back to make amends to him, the priest told him that to make amends he

should read it every day. So he agreed, his living amends then was to read the

bible every day.



Blessed Be



Phillip



- - - -



From: john wikelius <justjohn1431946@yahoo.com> (justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)



I have equated it to paying forward. There are those who I cannot make a direct

amend to because of time, death etc. By showing kindness and compassion to

those I encounter today I feel that is making a living amends. Also I feel that

"Actions speak louder than words" thus showing folks of my sincerety is much

more profitable that trying to convince them verbally.



- - - -



From: bob gordon <bob34g@gmail.com> (bob34g at gmail.com)



Even though I live in Canada an old timer explained it once to me this way. The

US Constitution has amendments, but when they changed the practice of politics

they did not say sorry. The 19th Amendment grants women the vote it doesn't say

sorry we didn't allow you to vote back in the old days. In the same way he told

me amends were living changed behaviour not simply apologizing for past misdeeds

_______________________

Bob Gordon

34 North Street, Guelph, ON

CANADA N1H 8N5

SMS 5193626709



- - - -



From: intuited < intuited@earthlink.net > (intuited at earthlink.net)



When I do a living amends I am functioning in guidance to make like the very

best for the other person(s) that I have harmed. Apologizing or showing that I

was aware and sorry isn't enough. I need to be impeccable in my present and

future behavior.



Amelia



- - - -



From: Dov W <dovwcom@gmail.com> (dovwcom at gmail.com)



Searching through Grapevine archives "living amends" is referred to not so much

as an additional requirement but as a potential alternative for direct amends in

articles since 1978.



Overeater's Anonymous mentions the idea in a recent piece of literature on

sponsorship:



page 11, lines 404-405 <<living amends that require the sponsee not only to

apologize but also to change behavior or to repair damages>>



page 12, lines 461-465 <<Most amends will require not only that a sponsee

apologize, but also change behaviors, correct wrongs and, if possible, repair

damages. These actions are often called "living amends." Sponsors and sponsees

usually discuss these thoroughly and develop a plan for future behaviors. If a

person cannot be contacted or amends cannot be made, suggest alternative actions

such as giving to others in a selfless way.>>



page 12, lines 466-467 <<we can make living amends to ourselves by making amends

to others.>>



http://www.oa.org/pdfs/sponsoring_12_steps_2010.pdf



My sponsor told me about living amends he made to his 1 year old son. The Big

Book on page 83 says "We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze

the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them." But my

sponsor's one year old son would not have understood any analysis of the past,

frank or otherwise. So my sponsor would use whatever spare time he could find to

share with his son and be the best Dad he could be.


0 -1 0 0
7196 James Bliss
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 2/17/2011 7:16:00 AM


Windows servers could handle this as well. The only benefit of the

Linux operating systems is that they are free. A Windows 7 professional

provides the IIS server, FTP and email capabilities.



The problem is bandwidth as you mentioned. For audio and video files

they will eat up bandwidth quickly and virtually all home connections available

will not be able to handle them reasonably. That is the reason hosting services

are best because they provide a much higher level of bandwidth than home

connections do.



Hopefully there are several members on this group who are helping with small

contributions to PayPal.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
7197 Jim M
Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online More problems keeping silkworth.net online 3/2/2011 2:52:00 AM


Update: Silkworth.net is being moved, at the request of my previous hosting

provider (doteasy.com), to its partner company In2net.com, to handle the

traffic, including Audio and Video files. The site will be fully restored within

the next few days - give or take.



I am in agreement with Jim -- Silkworth.net is in the process of being moved to

a Virtual Private Server to handle the traffic to silkworth.net. After much

research and my own lack of experience, Shakey Mike, Mitchell K, and I felt this

was the best course of action.



Within the next few days, on the index page of silkworth.net, operational costs

for silkworth.net, as well as Pay Pal donations to date, how the funds were

used, as well as the renewal dates for the domain name and hosting services,

will be posted at all times.



For all of you who have supported silkworth.net with your generous Pay Pal

donations and other means, we -- Mike, Mitch and myself -- express much

gratitude to you for your continued support of silkworth.net. Make no mistake

about it, it could not have been done without you.





Yours in service,

Jim M



- - - -



From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>

Subject: Re: More problems keeping silkworth.net online

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 7:16 AM



Windows servers could handle this as well. The only benefit of the

Linux operating systems is that they are free. A Windows 7 professional provides

the IIS server, FTP and email capabilities.



The problem is bandwidth as you mentioned. For audio and video files

they will eat up bandwidth quickly and virtually all home connections available

will not be able to handle them reasonably. That is the reason hosting services

are best because they provide a much higher level of bandwidth than home

connections do.



Hopefully there are several members on this group who are helping with small

contributions to PayPal.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
7198 Dougbert
Re: Joe Quinn Joe Quinn 2/23/2011 7:03:00 PM


From Dougbert, Shakey Mike, and John Moore



- - - -



From: Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com> (dougbert8 at yahoo.com)



Hi Wendy,



For five years, I was a regular at Joe Quinn's Thurday night book study in

Laguna Beach. Joe was a crusader for the Paradoxes. You will need a second

edition to understand his passion about the Paradoxes. You cannot write about

Joe Quinn without understanding why he was so passionate about the Paradoxes.



The Professor and the Paradox starts on page 341 (second edition):

1. We surrender to Win

2. We give it away to keep it

3. We suffer to get well

4. We die to live



Although Dr Paul, addict/alcoholic started the acceptance craze from page 417, I

think A.A. did a great disservice to the Fellowship for replacing The Professor

and the Paradox with Dr. Paul's story. But I understand that A.A. was attempting

to be all things to all people to increase membership, but Joe Quinn would tell

you, A.A. is for alcoholics! I will not buy a new edition until we get back to

our roots of pure alcoholism.



In Fellowship,



Doug



- - - -



From: Shakey Mike <shakey1aa@yahoo.com> (shakey1aa at yahoo.com)



There are hundreds of thousands. That is why local archives are so important to

preserving our fellowship. We need to document their individual AA story and

their AA service involvement.



Yours in Service

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Hardcore Group

See you in Montana in September

(15th National Archives Workshop)



- - - -



From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com> (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)



Hi Wendi



I am sending to your email address a brief memoir written by my good buddy Vaun

I. in California. Vaun talks about Joe Q who 12 stepped him, in a story he

wrote for the Orange County AA publication The Lifeline.



I am also sending to you via email a copy of the poem "Touch of the Master's

Hand". Joe recited it by heart at the end of every talk he gave. I always

found it stirring.



I will write up my own recollections for you, Wendi, and get to you this week.



All the best,

John Moore

South Burlington, Vermont



- - - -



The Touch of the Master's Hand



It was battered and scarred,

And the auctioneer thought it

hardly worth his while

To waste his time on the old violin,

but he held it up with a smile.



"What am I bid, good people", he cried,

"Who starts the bidding for me?"

"One dollar, one dollar, Do I hear two?"

"Two dollars, who makes it three?"

"Three dollars once, three dollars twice, going for three,"



But, No,

From the room far back a gray bearded man

Came forward and picked up the bow,

Then wiping the dust from the old violin

And tightening up the strings,

He played a melody, pure and sweet

As sweet as the angel sings.



The music ceased and the auctioneer

With a voice that was quiet and low,

Said "What now am I bid for this old violin?"

As he held it aloft with its' bow.



"One thousand, one thousand, Do I hear two?"

"Two thousand, Who makes it three?"

"Three thousand once, three thousand twice,

Going and gone", said he.



The audience cheered,

But some of them cried,

"We just don't understand."

"What changed its' worth?"

Swift came the reply.

"The Touch of the Masters Hand."



And many a man with life out of tune

All battered with bourbon and gin

Is auctioned cheap to a thoughtless crowd

Much like that old violin



A mess of pottage, a glass of wine,

A game and he travels on.

He is going once, he is going twice,

He is going and almost gone.



But the Master comes,

And the foolish crowd never can quite understand,

The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought

By the Touch of the Masters' Hand.



-- Myra Brooks Welch



_____________________________



Message #7186

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7186

Fri Feb 18, 2011

From <wenditurner@gmail.com> (wenditurner at gmail.com)



Hello,



I am doing an article on Joe Quinn for an alano club newsletter.



Joe Quinn got sober in Los Angeles on December 21st, 1952, and passed away on

July 25th 2000.



Folks are telling me Joe spoke all over the country and was known all over. I

have had a great opportunity to talk to many whose lives he touched.



I thought I would ask if there are any oldtimers our there with additional

stories.



Thank you,



Wendi


0 -1 0 0
7199 mg2131
Re: changing the 12 steps -- Big Book vs. 12-and-12 changing the 12 steps -- Big Book vs. 12-and-12 2/24/2011 12:11:00 PM


The description of HOW WE WORK the 12 steps was changed when the 12 & 12 was

written.



I work the steps from the Big Book, I haven't worked them from the 12 & 12.

However, I have read the 12 & 12 and to me, the differences that immediately pop

to mind (without having it in front of me to check) are that step 1 is different

in the 12 & 12, and step 4 is pretty radically different as well. So the change

in how they are done, what actions are taken, would date to the 12&12, at least,

as it can be tracked with written documentation.



I feel like this was a pretty garbled response, but maybe it can give you a

starting point.



Jen


0 -1 0 0
7200 intuited
Re: changing the 12 steps changing the 12 steps 2/24/2011 12:30:00 AM


From: Amelia (intuited), Allan Gengler, paddymur, Rob M. (hjfree), and Bill Lash

(barefootbill)



- - - -



From: intuited <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at earthlink.net)



I apologize. I could have been clearer about my question on changing the steps.

After the Big Book was published were there ongoing disagreements about the

wording in the steps? Did some meetings change them, and if so, how was this

handled by local intergroups or GSO? Did the General Service Conference

develop any policy to deal with local groups who might change them? I am aware

of two groups who have significantly revised steps and I am curious about the

history of the phenomenon. Hope this is clearer. Thanks, Amelia



- - - -



From: "Allan Gengler" <agengler@wk.net> (agengler at wk.net)



Steps 3, 7, 8 and 12 were changed from the original manuscript.



Is that what you mean?



- - - -



From: "paddymur" <paddymur@yahoo.com> (paddymur at yahoo.com)



Amelia--



They changed the 12th Step from "having had a Spiritual experience ..." to read

"having had a Spiritual awakening..." The feeling was that not everyone would

have and 'experience' like Bill W. did. Most of us get it gradually.



--Pat



- - - -



From: "hjfree2001" <hjfree@fuse.net> (hjfree at fuse.net)



I was at a meeting in a suburb north of Baltimore, when they read the 12 steps

they substituted substances for alcohol in step 1, I was so disheartened I

almost left.



I have been to meetings in 45 of the 50 states and it is a comfort to walk in,

be able reminisce with a group of strangers and have the same readings,

everywhere but that one.



Blessed2BSober



rob m



- - - -



From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@optonline.net> (barefootbill at optonline.net)



Here is a current scary example of changing the Steps:



http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Warning_Non_AA_Groups_Infiltrati\

ng_AA.pdf




Just Love,

Barefoot Bill


0 -1 0 0
7201 Norman Gin
Re: changing the 12 steps changing the 12 steps 2/24/2011 11:10:00 AM


From Norman Gin and Dougbert



- - - -



From: Norman Gin <ncgin@swbell.net> (ncgin at swbell.net)



I'm not sure if this addresses your question, but I recently met a man who is

active in Native American Indian GSO



http://www.naigso-aa.org/index.htm



The history of NAIGSO, meeting formats, as well as " The Indian Twelve Steps -

Walking the Red Road" and other information can be found under "Site Map"



Norm



- - - -



From: Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com> (dougbert8 at yahoo.com)



Amelia,



Try http://www.aa-freethinkers.org -- they have rewriten the Steps at

http://www.aa-freethinkers.org/steps2.shtml



In Fellowship,



Doug



AGNOSTIC 12 STEPS



1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become

unmanageable.

2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our

awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the

collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being the

exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.

7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make

amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so

would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly

admitted it.

11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our

understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that

way of life.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to

carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our

affairs.



______________________________



Message #7191 Wed Feb 23, 2011

from "amelialoomis" <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at earthlink.net)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7191



Does anyone know of the 12-steps being changed in our history? This could be

individual meetings, regions, or meeting directory policies. After all this time

there must be some documentation of the struggles on this.



Thanks, Amelia


0 -1 0 0
7202 Glenn Chesnut
Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 3/2/2011 4:32:00 PM


Since 1976, the wording of the twelve steps cannot be changed without consulting

all the registered AA groups worldwide, asking them to respond in writing. At

least three quarters of those responding must approve the change before it can

be made.



See "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005



As Arthur puts it: "The Conference Advisory Action makes any change whatsoever

to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a virtual impossibility (even

so much as adding or removing a comma)."



See also Message #5700 from "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>



"3/4 of the registered groups permission" applies to the Steps, Traditions and

Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter (i.e. the 6 "Warranties" which

are also Concept 12) per advisory action of the 1976 Conference (which also

approved the 3rd edition Big Book).



- - - -



A further comment from Glenn C: I would like to add that the interpretation of

what the twelve steps and twelve traditions mean cannot be done by narrow word

chopping and pseudo-logical arguments. They have to be interpreted in terms of

the historical precedents which were set back in the early AA period.



So for example, it is illegitimate to try to argue that, since the steps

referred to "God as we understood Him," everyone in AA had to use the word "God"

at all times, and that no one in AA was allowed even to use a term like "Higher

Power," let alone be an atheist or agnostic. The reason why this was not valid

was because the historical tradition records that the words "as we understood

Him" were inserted to allow the early AA member who was an atheist to remain a

member of the group.



And similar ground rules apply to the wording of the Twelve Traditions. What

specific kinds of things were actually regarded as anonymity breaks in earliest

AA history? We must look at the actual examples of things that were forbidden,

BUT ALSO things that nobody worried about. What was meant by a "promoter"

back during that period (remembering the Rule 62 story)? Or in other words, in

the historical context of that period, "attraction rather than promotion" was

not a rule forbidding AA members from getting articles about AA put in their

local newspapers and that sort of thing (as long as pictures of their faces and

their last names were kept out of it, of course!) What specific things happened

which Tradition Six was directed against? (In this case, it was things like Bill

W. and Dr. Bob's names being put on the letterhead of Marty Mann's National

Council on Alcoholism as official supporters of her group.)



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)



P.S. But to answer another part of Amelia's question, what can actually be done

to an individual AA group which tries to re-word one of the twelve steps? The

worst sanction that could be applied would be to remove the list of that group's

meetings from the local intergroup published meeting schedule. And personally,

I've never known that to be done to an AA group.



In AA, we DO NOT burn people at the stake, or chop off their heads in the town

square, or hold Salem-type witch trials!



Nor -- my own personal opinion here -- do sensible AA people stand around

conducting nit-picking arguments over things like how many angels can stand on

the head of a pin, or trying to invent dozens of new rules about exactly how you

are allowed to introduce yourself at a meeting, or whether an AA conference can

accept a dollar (to help pay for their coffee) from Al-Anons who are also

attending, and that sort of thing. This last paragraph is just me though!



- - - -



CHANGES TO STEP TWELVE:



See also Message 2258 from Jim Blair <jblair@videotron.ca>

(jblair at videotron.ca)



Changes to the Big Book 1st Edition - 2nd Printing:



>> P72-L03, Spiritual Experience to Awakening.

>> Added footnote "see Appendix II", p35, 38, 72.

>> Added Appendix II - Spiritual Experience, p399.



- - - -



CHANGES TO STEP TWELVE:



The series of changes in the wording of Step 12:



From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com> Date: Sat Dec 3, 2005

Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Changing "those" to "these" in 12th step wording



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the 1st

edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual

awakening" and the term "as the result of these steps" was changed to "as the

result of those steps."



An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was also added to the Big Book in the

2nd printing of the 1st edition. This was done because many members thought they

had to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one

Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual

experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the

"educational variety."



There is a very brief mention of the Step 12 wording change from "experience" to

"awakening" in "AA Comes of Age" in the chapter "Religion Looks at Alcoholics

Anonymous" by Father Ed Dowling (pg 256). Outside of it, I have been unable to

find any further references to the changes in AA literature.



In 1956, the wording of Step 12 changed again in the 2nd printing of the 2nd

edition Big Book. The term "as the result of those steps" was restored to its

original form of "as the result of these steps."



The 1976 General Service Conference approved publication of the 3rd edition Big

Book.



The 1976 Conference also expanded a 1955 provision of the Conference Charter to

specify that any change to the Steps, Traditions or Concepts and 6 Warranties of

Article 12 of the General Service Conference Charter, would require written

approval of 75% of the AA Groups worldwide. The Conference Advisory Action makes

any change whatsoever to the Steps, Traditions, Concepts and Warranties a

virtual impossibility (even so much as adding or removing a comma).





Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



Message 3677 from "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@msn.com>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com) Sept. 4, 2006



There were a number of significant changes made to the 2nd printing of the 1st

edition Big Book:



In March 1941, in the 2nd printing, the wording of Step Twelve changed. The term

"spiritual experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and "as the result

of these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps." The story "Lone

Endeavor" (of Pat C from CA, ghost written by Ruth Hock) was removed. Appendix

II "Spiritual Experience" was added. Many members thought they had to have a

sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one Bill had in Towns

Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual experiences developed

slowly over time and were of the "educational variety." William James, by the

way did not explicitly use the term "educational variety" in his 1902 book

titled "The Varieties of Religious Experience - A Study In Human Nature."


0 -1 0 0
7203 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 2/23/2011 11:49:00 PM


How much of the story of the AA treatment center and Wombley's Clapboard Factory

is factual? Who was the super promoter, what town did this happen in and what

happened to the building? It seems likely that Bill was talking about a

clapboard factory in the generic sense, but what about the three story building

and rule 62?



I apologize if I sound daft, but Bill seems to occasionally take liberties. Is

this an example? I did find this:



http://chipsontheweb.net/memchips/wombleys_clapboard.pdf



Chuck


0 -1 0 0
7204 Cindy Miller
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 2/24/2011 9:28:00 AM


In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon

Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics

Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)



This building had been purchased and opened as a Clubhouse in the early 40's.

(One of the first--it was a big deal.) As I recall, it had 3 floors -- one with

restaurant/catering facilities, one with a bowling alley -- and of course,

meeting rooms. It was said that this was the model AA complex talked about in

Tradition 4. Could some North Jersey member corroborate/correct this info?



North Jersey has GREAT Archives. Saw the actual "Rule 62" card displayed there,

as well as many fliers for events with Bill W. in attendance.



In service,

Cindy Miller


0 -1 0 0
7205 John Lee
Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 3/2/2011 5:25:00 PM


Glenn,



Since Conference Actions aren't binding on future Conferences, I assume the

Conference could always revoke the 75% group approval rule for changing the

Steps and Traditions. It's not like the U.S. Constitution, where an Amendment is

forever, unless it's repealed by another Amendment or by a Constitutional

Convention.



John Lee

Pittsburgh


0 -1 0 0
7206 Art Boudreault
Re: Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano 3/3/2011 1:45:00 PM


Cindy said: "Workshop held at the 'Alanon Association' club in Newark, NJ. (This

name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not

been founded yet.)"



As a matter of history, when Lois W. proposed using the word Alanon, Bill

suggested the dash (-) to differentiate these from the A.A. "Alanon"

associations. He then wrote to the A.A. Alanon associations and asked them to

drop the last "n," creating the A.A. "Alano clubs" which we know today.



Art Boudreault


0 -1 0 0
7207 Ken Ring
Re: Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano Alanon, Al-Anon, and Alano 3/4/2011 12:28:00 PM


What is the source of this information about where the term "Alano" club came

from?



- - - -



Message #7204 from Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net> (cm53 at earthlink.net)



In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon

Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics

Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)



Message #7206 from "Art Boudreault" <artb@netwiz.net> (artb at netwiz.net)



Cindy said: "Workshop held at the 'Alanon Association' club in Newark, NJ. (This

name is a contraction of alcoholics Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not

been founded yet.)"



As a matter of history, when Lois W. proposed using the word Alanon, Bill

suggested the dash (-) to differentiate these from the A.A. "Alanon"

associations. He then wrote to the A.A. Alanon associations and asked them to

drop the last "n," creating the A.A. "Alano clubs" which we know today.


0 -1 0 0
7208 MattD
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 3/5/2011 4:42:00 PM


In an interview with Tom P. — who had worked as an editor on the manuscript for

the 12 & 12 — he said Rule 62 was referring to Hazelden.



Matt D.



- - - -



A question from GC the moderator: was Hazelden big enough at that time (1952 to

1953) to be a match for the story in the 12-and-12? See

http://hindsfoot.org/kbs5.html for a photo of Hazelden taken in 1955.



It was just a big farmhouse. There was no third floor. And a bowling alley?

Maybe, but .... does anyone have any information about whether they could have

had all of this in that old farmhouse in 1952 and 1953?



- - - -



See Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions pp. 147-148:



"Beginning on the ground floor there would be a club; in the second story they

would sober up drunks and hand them currency for the back debts; the third deck

would house and educational project - quite controversial, of course. In

imagination the gleaming center was to go up several stories more, but three

would do for a start. This would all take a lot of money - other people's

money. Believe it or not, wealthy townsfolk bought the idea."



"Of course, there was a promoter in the deal - a super-promoter. By his

eloquence he allayed all fears, despite advice from the Foundation that it could

issue no charter, and that ventures which mixed an A.A. group with medication

and education had come to sticky ends elsewhere. To make things safer, the

promoter organized three corporations and became president of them all. Freshly

painted, the new center shone. The warmth of it all spread through the town.

Soon things began to hum. to insure foolproof, continuous operation, sixty-one

rules and regulations were adopted."



"But alas, this bright scene was not long in darkening. confusion replaced

serenity. It was found that some drunks yearned for education, but doubted if

they were alcoholics. The personality defects of others could be cured maybe

with a loan. Some were club-minded, but it was just a question of taking care

of the lonely heart. Sometimes the swarming applicants would go for all three

floors. Some would start at the top and come through to the bottom, becoming

club members; others started in the club, pitched a binge, were hospitalized,

then graduated to education on the third floor."


0 -1 0 0
7209 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden si... Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden si... 3/2/2011 5:07:00 PM


Glenn C. wrote: "In AA, we DO NOT burn people at the stake, or chop off their

heads in the town square, or hold Salem-type witch trials!



Baileygc23@aol.com responds: "Please do not give the faithful hints."


0 -1 0 0
7210 Jim F.
Re: Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 Changes in steps or traditions effectively forbidden since 1976 3/3/2011 11:57:00 AM


From Jim F. and Jon Markle



- - - -



From: "Jim F." <f.jim53@rocketmail.com> (f.jim53 at rocketmail.com)



The 4th Tradition provides a huge loophole for any group not wanting to observe

or abide by the other tradtions. The



4th tradition effectively grants each group autonomy and the "right to be

wrong."



The steps are also only suggested "guides to progress."



In AA it's important to note that all suggestions are given for free, the only

ones you may have to pay for are the ones



you don't take.



Jim F.



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <jon.markle@mac.com> (jon.markle at mac.com)



Some meetings in the Cleveland/Akron area do have some different words in some

of the Steps and Traditions. When I first attended them years ago, as a visitor

when I went to visit my parents who live in Cleveland, I was very surprised and

caught completely off guard by surprise. Imagine this relative newbee's shock!

LOL However it forced me to do some homework. I am glad I did not insert my

foot in my mouth. It forced me to study our AA history. I have not been

offended by those minor changes for years now. In fact, I have become

accustomed to the meetings there, their different format, and the distinctive

"flavor" of somewhat (to me) rigidity they have toward working the steps,

studying the traditions, and working the program as it is written (even though a

couple of words are different). I really appreciate the attitude of gratitude

instilled in me for our very colorful AA history, with all it's chinks. <GRIN>



Jon Markle

Raleigh, North Carolina


0 -1 0 0
7211 larry
Can any of Bill W''s writings be changed? Can any of Bill W''s writings be changed? 3/2/2011 5:11:00 PM


I hate to ask what may be an ignorant question, but it is my understanding that

there was a conference action that there could be no changes to any of Bill's

writings. Is this correct?

Larry



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator: Well, actually, no. In theory, the wording could be

changed on Bill W's writings. According to Arthur S's research, a conference

action stating that no changes could be made was proposed in 1996, but no

advisory action resulted. The next year, the Trustees Committee on Literature

also declined to take action on that proposal.



See Message #5700 from "Arthur S"

<ArtSheehan@msn.com> (ArtSheehan at msn.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5700?threaded=1&l=1



ARTHUR SAID:



<<There is no such Conference advisory action regarding the need for permission

of 3/4 of the registered groups to change Dr Bob's Story (or the Big Book or any

other book). The 1995 Conference Literature Committee recommended that: "The

first 164 pages of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Preface, the

Forewords, 'The Doctor's Opinion,' 'Doctor Bob's Nightmare' and the Appendices

remain as is." A floor action was submitted to the 1996 Conference to: "Propose

a Conference resolution that the 46th General Service Conference recommend to

the Fellowship of A.A.s of the world that the first 164 pages of the Big Book,

Alcoholics Anonymous, the Preface, the Forewards (sic), "The Doctor's Opinion,"

"Doctor Bob's Nightmare" and the Appendices be unchanged without approval of

three quarters of groups of the world." It did not result in an advisory action.

The 1997 Trustees Committee on Literature also reviewed the request and took no

action.>>



<<Note: the "3/4 of the registered groups permission" applies to the Steps,

Traditions and Article 12 of the Permanent Conference Charter (i.e. the 6

"Warranties" which are also Concept 12) per advisory action of the 1976

Conference (which also approved the 3rd edition Big Book).>>


0 -1 0 0
7212 CloydG
Changes in the first 164 pp. of the Big Book Changes in the first 164 pp. of the Big Book 3/3/2011 7:55:00 AM


From Clyde G., Glenn C., and gadgetsdad



- - - -



From: Clyde G. <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>

(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)



In a follow up on John Lee's question, I had been told that the original text --

the first 164 pages of the AA Big Book -- was in the hands of the Trustees. Is

this so?



I was told that this was done so that the foundation of AA was preserved for

generations to follow, so that others whom came into AA could follow in the

footsteps of the founders for ever and ever.



The job of Conferences was to clarify or correct errors in individual printings

from year to year. I was also told that this was Bill and Bob's wishes prior to

turning AA over to World Services. Is this so?



In love and Service,

Clyde G.

California



- - - -



From: Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



Clyde,



Well, Arthur S. is the top AA expert on this all-important area of AA history,

so I'm just going by what he turned up in his research. It seems to be the case

that it is still possible for the Conference to make changes in the first 164

pages of the Big Book.



See Arthur's message no. 7211 for more about this:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7211



And if you go back through the messages that have been posted in the

AAHistoryLovers, you will in fact find that small changes have been made even in

the first 164 pages. They are usually extremely minor changes. The message from

gadgetsdad below is one typical example.



Glenn C.



- - - -



From: gadgetsdad <gadgetsdad@yahoo.com> (gadgetsdad at yahoo.com)



All 16 printings of the first edition and the first six printings of the second

edition had the phrase "program of recovery" capitalized [page 59 in the present

fourth edition]. After exhaustive research the answer I have to this change was

that it was and I quote "an editorial change." There was not a conference or

Trustee action that made this change.


0 -1 0 0
7213 Jon Markle
Re: Big Book vs. 12-and-12 on the twelve steps Big Book vs. 12-and-12 on the twelve steps 3/3/2011 9:46:00 PM


Original message #7199 from "mg2131"

<jamirabella@yahoo.com> (jamirabella at yahoo.com)



The description of HOW WE WORK the 12 steps was changed when the 12 & 12 was

written.



I work the steps from the Big Book, I haven't worked them from the 12 & 12.

However, I have read the 12 & 12 and to me, the differences that immediately pop

to mind (without having it in front of me to check) are that step 1 is different

in the 12 & 12, and step 4 is pretty radically different as well. So the change

in how they are done, what actions are taken, would date to the 12&12, at least,

as it can be tracked with written documentation.



Jen



- - - -



From Jon Markle <jon.markle@mac.com>

(jon.markle at mac.com)



The steps are *PRECISELY* the same, word for word in both books.



The *ESSAYS* following each of the Steps are different. Which was INTENTIONAL.

Bill W. had a little more time under his belt when he penned the 12x12, thus he

had a vastly additional ESH [Experience, Strength, Hope] on what to say in

regard to how they might be approached.



The 12x12 was never meant to replace the Big Book. The 12x12 was, however,

meant to augment the Big Book, and give a more broad perspective and instruction

about the process of working the Steps, because the author had a better

understanding of How it Works by then.



In the Foreword, pg 17, of the 12x12: "The book 'Alcoholics Anonymous' became

the basic text of the Fellowship, and it still is. This present volume [the

12x12] proposes to broaden and deepen the understanding of the Twelve Steps as

first written in the earlier work."



So, we can look at the 12x12 as adjunct to our study of the steps, not a

replacement for the Big Book (by any stretch of the imagination).



Jon Markle

Raleigh, North Carolina



P.S. It was here on AAHistoryLovers, years ago, I believe, that I learned it was

NOT A REQUIREMENT for any AA group to adhere or subscribe to the 12 Traditions.

It's one of those autonomous things that makes AA so uniquely different from any

other system of people. No one can force us to sign on to those Traditions if

we do not want to.



At first I was in total denial, disbelief; appalled at this suggestion. Now,

I'm not so sure about this "loophole". Seeing how the Traditions are somehow

used, in some areas, by some groups, to abuse and beat up on other groups.



We alcoholics, even though sober, can be SOB's.



- - - -



From: Robt Woodson <wdywdsn@sbcglobal.net> (wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net)



A quick reading of the Forward to the Twelve and Twelve (p.15) can clear up a

lot of problems here...those are not the steps; they are essays on the steps.

The essays there were directed at our membership, primarily at questions asked

by sponsors about the Twelve Steps;, and also, at others outside of our

fellowship (who were asking a lot of questions too). It was perceived that they

too might benefit from a knowledge of our Twelve Steps. The Steps themselves

remain in the Big Book. A simple case in point or "test" if you will ...you

can't work the Fourth Step from the Twelve and Twelve because it doesn't tell

you how to do it. I'll hazard a personal opinion...If you want to confuse a

newcomer...send them to the Twelve and Twelve.



As a way of presenting and elucidating our Twelve Traditions on the other hand,

the information there is invaluable.



Felices 24 Horas,

Woody in Akron



- - - -



From: Tim DeRan <timderan@msn.com>

(timderan at msn.com)



Keep something in mind, it is known fact that there a lot of people in

Cleveland, Ohio who think that Clarence S founded Alcoholics Anonymous in

Cleveland, that he wrote the Big Book and that the first meetings of AA took

place in Cleveland, Ohio. So that loose play with wording just might have

something to do with their thinking they are the source.



Sometimes changing words and ideas have confused more than a few members whether

new or old. Might be best to stick to that which works.



Just for a few grins, there are some other places in Ohio that when asked

members of AA in those places will tell that AA was really founded there also.



Just saying.



tmd


0 -1 0 0
7214 intuited
Re: changing the 12 steps changing the 12 steps 3/8/2011 11:13:00 AM


Thanks, Norman and Doug. These references were very helpful. The Indian Twelve

Steps and their meeting formats were adapted to cultural norms and changed the

name God to Great Spirit. Their meeting format includes the reading of both the

original AA 12-steps as well as theirs. This allows the members to resonate with

a broader potential. I'm guessing GSO doesn't have a problem with these since

they use the AA ones also.



The freethinkers use the Agnostic 12 steps taken from the NYC website,

http://agnosticaanyc.org/ In contrast, these 12-steps remove any energy beyond

the self except the wisdom of others. I believe this is an inferred rejection

of love, consciousness, intuition or power beyond the self.



I would have trouble referring a newbie struggling with their concept of divine

transformation to such meetings. Alcoholism is a fatal disease, not to be taken

lightly. Please convince me otherwise.



By the way, I found this website interesting when searching on

epistemology and intuition: http://consc.net/mindpapers/5.1i.1



Last year I met a man at a shaman conference who was working the shamanic 12

steps. Thought some of you might find these interesting. I don't know if they

are listed locally in any directories. I have ordered a book on Shamanic

Breathwork and the 12 steps to see what more I can glean.



12-STEPS OF SHAMANIC RECOVERY AND DISCOVERY



1. We accept that we are powerless over our addictive, compulsive and

codependent patterns of thought and behavior – that in the attempt to fill the

void rather than embrace it, our lives have become unmanageable.



2. Came to believe that a Power greater than anything we ever knew we could

access within ourselves can open us to love and nurture us through our path of

recovery and discovery.



3. Knowing that unconditional love is the healer we made a decision to surrender

our will and our lives to the care of an inner Greater Power as we understand

it.



4. Made a loving and fearless inventory of ourselves.



5. We share our inventory with our Greater Power and another person without the

need for self-recrimination, knowing that in naming our shadow we will open our

hearts.



6. Were entirely ready to have our Greater Power remove all these obstacles and

give up the need to be perfect.



7. Humbly asked our Greater Power to help us let go of all our distractions from

the divine that manifest in negative and self destructive patterns of thought

and behavior.



8. Made a list of all the persons we have harmed while attempting to fill the

void, and became willing to make amends to them all, forgiving them and

ourselves.



9. Made direct amends to those we have harmed except when to do so would injure

them or others. When making direct amends would cause harm, we make the amends

through a ritual or ceremony that honors the other and ourselves.



10. Continue to take personal inventory daily, as an act of reverence,

committing to our personal growth and when we are wrong, promptly admit it and

lovingly accept responsibility for our mistakes. We also admitted when our

boundaries have been violated and choose to fearlessly and lovingly tell the

truth to free ourselves and others from the bondage of inauthentic living.



11. Grow through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with our

inner Greater Power, praying only for knowledge of our Greater Power’s will

for us and the love and strength to carry that out in our daily lives by the

practice of acting from love rather than fear.



12. As a result of these steps, we reach a greater understanding of our true

selves and are able to carry the message of recovery and discovery in our daily

lives. We may then live the passionate dance of co-creating our lives through

the synthesis of our will and the will and wisdom of our inner Divine Spirit.



Adapted from the teaching of Alcoholics Anonymous, Codependents

Anonymous and Humans Anonymous.



This expansion of the 12 Steps is lovingly offered from the

participants and staff of Venus Rising to give hope and strength to

anyone looking for soulful sobriety.


0 -1 0 0
7215 Bryan Reid
Lackland-Long Beach method of alcoholism treatment Lackland-Long Beach method of alcoholism treatment 3/7/2011 9:14:00 PM


Message #7208 contained a reference to a photo taken of the Hazelden treatment

center in 1955:



http://hindsfoot.org/kbs5.html



That web page discussed the "Lackland method" with what I consider to be an

extraordinary success ratio. I'm totally ignorant of the Lackland method and

would be most appreciative if someone could steer me in the right direction to

learn more about it.



Bryan

Highway 92 Group

in Sierra Vista, Arizona.



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator:



In early AA, the principal source of tension was not those who believed in God

vs. those who were atheists. There weren't very many real atheists during the

early period -- one or two or so that we know by name, seem to have been all

they were.



The tension was actually between those who emphasized the spiritual aspects of

the program and those who stressed the psychological side of the program.



An early AA figure named Sgt. Bill Swegan ended up as the principal spokesman

for the side which wished to work AA almost completely as a psychological

program. They were not classical Freudians (who claimed that all our problems

went back to infancy -- alcoholics were people who didn't get enough breast

feeding, etc.). They instead worked on the basis of the kind of psychology and

psychiatry that was taught by Adler (Bill W's mother was an Adlerian therapist),

Karen Horney, and Erik Erikson.



Their theory was that most alcoholics underwent some kind of trauma during their

childhood (they didn't have the right clothes to fit in at school, one of their

parents was an alcoholic, one of their parents died, they were the victims of

abuse, or whatever) where they stopped developing emotionally past that age. So

you had a grown man or woman still throwing two-year-old temper tantrums or

acting like an extremely obnoxious and out-of-control thirteen-year-old or

something of the sort. Sometimes the alcoholic drinking started at that age,

sometimes it did not begin until they were older.



But they needed something like a good family -- one filled with wise father and

mother figures, people who could act like good older brothers and sisters, and

wise old grandparents and uncles and aunts -- who could gently and lovingly help

them grow up emotionally. This was what the AA fellowship did -- it was the AA

fellowship which healed.*



You can read a short version of their teaching about alcoholism in Kenneth G.

Merrill, "Drunks Are a Mess," published in a magazine for recovering alcoholics

in prison, as part of a program (which he had himself helped start) for

alcoholic convicts at the Indiana state penitentiary at Michigan City -- the

second most famous early AA prison group, which had a 75% success rate when Ken

and his people from South Bend were sponsoring it).



http://hindsfoot.org/nsbend2.html



Also see http://hindsfoot.org/NSBend3.html



and http://hindsfoot.org/NSBend1.html



It is called the Lackland-Long Beach method, because Bill Swegan developed the

full-fledged version of the recovery program at Lackland Air Force Base in San

Antonio, Texas, in 1953. Two other famous figures from AA history --

psychiatrist Dr. Joseph J. Zuska and AA member Dick Jewell -- gave Swegan's

method further development in the mid 1960's at the Long Beach Naval Station in

California.



Nancy Olson (the founder of the AAHistoryLovers) talked about Joe Zuska and Dick

Jewell in her book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends":



http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html



Joe Zuska is still to this day one of the truly great and most beloved AA heroes

in that part of California.



Bill Swegan wrote about his own experiences in a book which was originally

entitled "On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program."



It is currently being re-issued in a second edition, to be entitled simply "The

Psychology of Alcoholism."



THE BLURB ON THE BACK OF THE BOOK WILL READ:



=====================================

William E. Swegan (“Sgt. Bill”) was the major spokesman for the psychological

wing of early Alcoholics Anonymous—that group within the newborn A.A. movement

of the 1930’s, 40’s and 50’s which stressed the psychotherapeutic side of the

twelve step program instead of the spiritual side. This book is Swegan’s major

work, in which he lays out the psychiatric theories which formed the foundation

of that variety of A.A. thought. He also talks about his association with Mrs.

Marty Mann, Yev Gardner, E. M. Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies,

Bill Dotson (A.A. No. 3) and Searcy Whaley, in addition to recording his

memories of the year he spent observing Sister Ignatia at work at St. Thomas

Hospital in Akron.



In 1953 Sgt. Bill teamed up with famous American psychiatrist Louis Jolyon

“Jolly” West at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, to develop a

method of alcoholism treatment (given further development in the mid 1960s by

Dr. Joseph J. Zuska and Dick Jewell at Long Beach Naval Station) called the

Lackland-Long Beach Model. It became one of the three basic types of

A.A.-oriented alcoholism treatment program, along with the Minnesota Model and

Sister Ignatia’s more spiritually oriented approach.



Sgt. Bill does not just talk psychiatric theories in this book. He uses his own

life story to show how traumatic loss, poverty, inadequate self-esteem, envy,

self-pity and rage can drive children and youths into isolationism, rebellion,

self-sabotage, and ultimately the descent into uncontrollable alcoholism or drug

addiction. But in his humanistic understanding of the twelve step program he

also shows us how to make use of the healing power of the spirit of Love and

Service to our fellow human beings to restore ourselves to new life.

=====================================



For more information see:



Bill Swegan's article on "The Psychology of Alcoholism" at

http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html



http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html



http://hindsfoot.org/kBS2.html



http://hindsfoot.org/kBS3.html



http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html



http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html



The section on William E. Swegan in the middle of the page at

http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html



http://hindsfoot.org/BSV01Thr.html





____________________________



*On the healing role of the AA fellowship, see also



http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html



and http://hindsfoot.org/kDub1.html


0 -1 0 0
7216 David
Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/8/2011 9:18:00 PM


I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's

GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA.



My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if

it does exist, where could I find a copy of it?


0 -1 0 0
7217 Jeff
Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/10/2011 9:14:00 AM


I can't vouch for the provenance of this letter, but here it is:



Some thoughts regarding our relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous



WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #13



This article was generated by the Narcotics Anonymous World Service Board of

Trustees in November 1985 in response to the needs of their fellowship. This

bulletin was revised during the 1995-1996 conference year.





The question of just how Narcotics Anonymous relates to all other fellowships

and organizations is one which may generate controversy within our fellowship.

In spite of the fact that we have a stated policy of "cooperation, not

affiliation" with outside organizations confusion remains. One such sensitive

issue involves our relationship to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Letters have been received by the World Service Board of Trustees asking a

variety of questions about this relationship.



Narcotics Anonymous is modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous. Nearly every NA

community in existence has leaned to some degree on AA in its formative stages.

Our relation-ship with that fellowship over the years has been very real and

dynamic. Our fellowship itself sprang from the turmoil within AA over what to

do with the addicts knocking on its doors. We will look at our roots for some

perspective on our current relationship to AA.



Bill W, one of AA's co-founders, often said that one of AA's greatest strengths

is its single-minded focus on one thing and one thing only. By limiting its

primary purpose to carrying the message to alcoholics, and avoiding all other

activities, AA is able to do that one thing supremely well. The atmosphere of

identification is preserved by that purity of focus, and alcoholics get help.



From very early on, AA was confronted by a perplexing problem: "What do we do

with drug addicts? We want to keep our focus on alcohol so the alcoholic hears

the message, but these addicts come in here talking about drugs, inadvertently

weakening our atmosphere of identification." The steps were written, the Big

Book was written—what were they supposed to do, rewrite it all? Allow the

atmosphere of identification to get blurry so that no one got a clear sense of

belonging? Kick these dying people back out into the streets? The problem must

have been a tremendous one for them.



When they finally studied the problem carefully and took a stand in their

literature, the solution they outlined possessed their characteristic common

sense and wisdom. They pledged their support in a spirit of "cooperation, not

affiliation." This farsighted solution to a difficult concern paved the way for

the development of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship.



But still, the problem that they wished to avoid would have to be addressed by

any group that tried to adapt AA's program of recovery to drug addicts. How do

you achieve the atmosphere of identification so necessary for surrender and

recovery if you let all different kinds of addicts in? Can someone with a

heroin problem relate to someone with an alcohol or marijuana or Valium problem?

How will you ever achieve the unity that the First Tradition says is necessary

for recovery? Our fellowship inherited a tough dilemma.



For some perspective on how we handled that dilemma, one more look at AA history

is helpful. Another thing Bill W. frequently wrote and spoke about was what he

called the "tenstrike" of AA—the wording of the Third and Eleventh Steps. The

whole area of spirituality versus religion was as perplexing for them as unity

was for us. Bill liked to recount that the simple addition of the words "as we

understood Him" after the word "God" killed that controversy in one chop. An

issue that had the potential to divide and destroy AA was converted into the

cornerstone of the program by that simple turn of phrase.



As the founders of Narcotics Anonymous adapted our steps, they came up with a

"tenstrike" of perhaps equal importance. Rather than converting the First Step

in a natural, logical way ("we admitted that we were powerless over drugs..."),

they made a radical change in that step. They wrote, "We admitted that we were

powerless over our addiction..." Drugs are a varied group of substances, the

use of any of which is but a symptom of our disease. When addicts gather and

focus on drugs, they are usually focusing on their differences, because each of

us used a different drug or combination of drugs. The one thing that we all

share is the disease of addiction. With that single turn of a phrase, the

foundation of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship was laid.



Our First Step gives us one focus: our addiction. The wording of Step One also

takes the focus of our powerlessness off the symptom and places it on the

disease itself. The phrase "powerless over a drug" does not go far enough for

most of us in recovery -- the desire to use has been removed -- but "powerless

over our addiction" is as relevant to the oldtimer as it is to the newcomer.

Our addiction begins to resurface and cause unmanageability in our thoughts and

feelings whenever we become complacent in our program of recovery. This process

has nothing to do with "drug of choice." We guard against the recurrence of our

drug use by applying our spiritual principles, before a relapse. Our First Step

applies regardless of drug of choice and length of clean time. With this

"tenstrike" as its foundation, NA has begun to flourish as a major worldwide

organization, clearly focusing on addiction..



As any NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles

(particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with

its alcohol-oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift

the focus away from specific drugs, don't mix well. When we try to mix them, we

find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along! When our

members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living

"clean and sober," the clarity of the NA message is blurred. The implication in

this language is that there are two diseases, that one drug is separate from

another, so a separate set of terms is needed when discussing addiction. At

first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full

impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion.



It has become clear that our common identification, our unity, and our full

surrender as addicts depends on a clear understanding of our most fundamental

principles: We are powerless over a disease that gets progressively worse when

we use any drug. It does not matter what drug was at the center for us when we

arrived. Any drug we use will release our disease all over again. We recover

from the disease of addiction by applying our Twelve Steps. Our steps are

uniquely worded to carry this message clearly, so the rest of our language of

recovery must be consistent with our steps. We cannot mix these fundamental

principles with those of our parent fellowship without crippling our own

message.



Both fellowships have a Sixth Tradition for a reason: to keep each one from

being diverted from its own primary purpose. Because of the inherent need of a

Twelve Step fellowship to focus on one thing and one thing only, so that it can

do that one thing supremely well, each Twelve Step fellowship must stand alone,

unaffiliated with everything else. It is in our nature to be separate, to feel

separate, and use a separate set of recovery terms, because we each have a

separate, unique primary purpose. The focus of AA is on the alcoholic, and we

ought to respect that fellowship's perfect right to adhere to its own traditions

and protect its focus. If we cannot use language consistent with that, we ought

not go to their meetings and undermine that atmosphere. In the same way, we NA

members ought to respect our own primary purpose and identify ourselves at NA

meetings simply as addicts, and share in a way that keeps our message clear.



A casual, cursory glance at AA's success in delivering recovery to alcoholics

over the years makes it abundantly clear that theirs is a successful program.

Their literature, their service structure, the quality of their members'

recovery, their sheer numbers, the respect they enjoy from society—these things

speak for themselves. Our members ought not embarrass us by adopting a "we're

better than them" posture. That can only be counterproductive.



As a fellowship, we must continue to strive to move forward by not stubbornly

clinging to one radical extreme or the other. Our members who have been

unintentionally blurring the NA message by using drug-specific language such as

"sobriety," "alcoholic," "clean and sober," "dope fiend," etc., could help by

identifying simply and clearly as addicts, and using the words "clean," "clean

time," and "recovery," which imply no particular substance. We all could help

by referring to only our own literature at meetings, thereby avoiding any

implied endorsement or affiliation. Our principles stand on their own. For the

sake of our development as a fellowship and the personal recovery of our

members, our approach to the problem of addiction must shine through clearly in

what we say and do at meetings.



Our members who have used these arguments to rationalize an anti-AA stand,

thereby alienating many sorely needed stable members, would do well to

re-evaluate and reconsider the effects of that kind of behavior. Narcotics

Anonymous is a spiritual fellowship. Love, tolerance, patience, and cooperation

are essential if we are to live our principles.



Let's devote our energies to our personal spiritual development through our own

Twelve Steps.



Let's carry our own message clearly. There's a lot of work to be done, and we

need each other if we are to be effective. Let's move forward in a spirit of NA

unity.



(Reprinted from Newsline Vol. 2, No. 6.)





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "David" <Inkman3@...> wrote:

>

> I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to

AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can

join AA.

>

> My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And

if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it?

>


0 -1 0 0
7218 jax760
Re: Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 Rule 62 and the AA treatment center described in Tradition 4 3/8/2011 8:05:00 PM


THE STORY OF ALANON OF NEW JERSEY



Cindy's suggestion is an interesting one. There are many similarities in the

story and the narration of "Rule 62" in the 12 & 12. This will require some

additional research. For now, please enjoy "The Story of Alanon of New Jersey"

This pamphlet was authored in 1948 and an original can be found in the GSO

archives. We are preparing to re-release here in Northern NJ as we are currently

completing a history display for the Alanon Club.



God Bless



John B. - Area 44 Archives



_________________________________________



The Story of ALANON of New Jersey



THIS PAMPHLET is issued to assist many persons in AA who are not clear in their

minds about the Alanon Club. They have been unable to recognize the distinction

between the Club and the Movement proper. With so many new alcoholics coming

into AA daily, a good portion of them joining Alanon, we are constantly plied

with questions concerning the Club's exact status.



SOCIAL HAVEN

The Alanon Association is a social for club for sincere AAs in good standing.

Its job is to provide AAs with a place to visit and enjoy on another's

friendship and companionship under the most congenial conditions within our

grasp. It endeavors to furnish amusement and diversion for the members and their

families and to serve all members of Alcoholics Anonymous in need of the help

and comfort which comes of group fellowship as practiced in the Movement. Alanon

functions actively in the rehabilitation of the men and women of AA. The Alanon

Club directly engages in no AA therapeutic work whatsoever. It adheres rigidly

to the AA tradition as propounded by the Alcoholic Foundation, but it is neither

a "Group" nor a central body in any sense. Purely and simply, it is a recreation

center for the individual embers of AA in New Jersey–who own it. Alanon seeks no

rights or jurisdiction in any other unit within the Movement; by the same token,

it is a legally chartered non–profit corporation of New Jersey entirely

controlled and operated by its own membership, who annually elect a board of

five trustees to manage it. In the event it should ever be liquidated, the

proceeds would go to the Foundation.



FACILITIES

The ample club house, measuring 80 feet long by 50 feet wide on a 100 x 100

plot, is fully equipped with club facilities. In the basement are located its

four bowling alleys which are busy seven days a week, the card room, toilets,

heating plant, etc. On the first floor are spacious lounging parlors equipped

with a $1,999 Television-Radio combination and a grand piano in good condition.

This floor also contains a huge recreation room where three pool tables and a

shuffleboard do yeomen service, and our kitchen and coffee bar, which are in

operation from 9:00 A.M. to the closing hour of midnight, (1:00 A.M. Friday and

Saturday nights). A large auditorium seating 400, occupies most of the second

floor, with the ladies' powder room, Intergroup office and storeroom making up

the balance.

Maintenance and operation of the club house is handled by a staff of paid

workers, under the supervision of the club manager. Owing to the financial

obligations involved, the club management finds it necessary to retain control

over major social functions, through the help of members working through

committees has proven of great value and is encouraged.



ACTIVITIES

The club is a bedlam of fun-making on weekends, particularly on Saturday nights.

In fact, a social function is arranged for almost every Saturday night in the

year.

Also, special programs are staged on significant holidays, such as

Hallowe'en,(sic) Thanksgiving, St. Patrick's Day, Christmas, and highlight of

the year, New Year's Eve. These functions are of a wide variety, and include

dances, costume parties, card parties, Monte Carlo nights, game nights, musical

entertainment, night club floor shows and Broadway-type reviews. Generally, all

the talent workers for those affairs are drawn from the club membership.

Activity is by no means confined to weekends, however. Every night there is

plenty of action, at the pool tables, shuffleboard, television and card room.

Besides, the tables adjoining the coffee bar and the big arm chairs in the

parlors are abuzz with AAs in "bull" sessions. It is a rare night that does not

count a minimum of 75 to 100 members and twice that number is the usual nightly

complement.



FINANCES

The club is on a sound financial basis and boasts of a satisfactory balance in

the bank. The property itself was purchased outright in November, 1944, for

$22,000 and is now in its fourth year of operation. A non-alcoholic friend of

several years standing advanced us $15,000 on a first mortgage, and 91 AAs who

helped to found the club loaned an additional $9,000. To them were issued

Certificates of Indebtedness which will become due and payable in 1955, bearing

3% interest. These Certificates are, in effect, promissory notes. They do not

constitute a lien against the property, but they are a legal obligation and

their integrity is guaranteed by the assets and honor of the organization. To

date, grateful members have endorsed back to the club nearly $1,000 worth of

these Certificates. Up to the present time, the club has reduced the mortgage on

the property by about $4,000, and set aside $1,500 additional in a sinking fund

toward the amortization of the Certificates of Indebtedness. Present intention

is to deposit $1,000 a year in the sinking fund until the Certificates mature.



REVENUES

The sources of operating revenues consist of dues, which are nominal now; sale

of coffee, sandwiches, ice cream, etc., at the coffee bar; fees for the use of

the bowling, pool, etc., facilities and contributions at the social events in

the auditorium.

The Club is necessarily conducted strictly along business lines, on a cash basis

and with no tabs or deferred accounts. Members three months in arrears in dues

are posted on the bulletin board. Contributions from AA groups are not

solicited, though occasionally voluntary donations are received from this

source.

Groups also sometimes sponsor dances, etc., in the auditorium, and turn the

proceeds over to the club treasury. Through the cooperation of the municipal and

county governments, the club property is legally exempt from all local taxes,

because of its recognized rehabilitation work.



OWNERSHIP

Folks ask, "Who owns the Alanon? The Groups? The Intergroup Committee? The

Newark AAs? A clique of bondholders or stockholders? A band of private

individuals?"

To answer all of the above there is but a single answer: NO. Alanon's charter

stipulates that its individual members shall always be its sole owners. Any New

Jersey AA is eligible to join Alanon, and when he or she joins, he or she

automatically becomes an owner of the Association's property and assets in

common with all other members. No Group or Committee or any other organized band

of AAs can have any rights of ownership or control over the club. There are no

bondholders or stockholders because no bonds or shares of stock were ever

issued. The club charter specifies that membership in Alanon is open to any New

Jersey AA, which means that no local group from any particular locality enjoys

any prior rights over the remainder of the state. At the present writing,

February 1948, these owner-members number 560, and they belong to 43 AA groups

scattered over the State.



SOME HISTORY

Others want to know exactly what is the Alanon Club? What does it do? Does it

dry out drunks on their way into AA? And "slippers"? Does it provide manpower

for the 12th Step work? Or speakers for group meetings? Does it fix a fellow up

for a night's lodging? Does it give out alms?

Again the answer is in the negative. The above questions embrace straight AA

work, which is the province of the Groups, the Intergroup or individual AAs.

Disastrous experience has taught us that Club activities and Group work do not

mix. The Club cannot dry a man out, but it does provide the recreation needed

for his rehabilitation. We had hardly opened our own doors in the beginning when

we discovered, to our consternation, that we were developing our own "skid row"

in the club house. Its denizens consisted of newcomers still under the influence

of alcohol coming in to be sobered up; chronic "slippers," resting between

periodic binges; insincere members on the prowl for unwary AA members with a

bankroll; visitors of sorts from Mulberry Street in search of a "flop" or

whatnot, and "touch" artists of various stripes and skills. These are only a few

of the many types of undesirable phonies we encountered.

12th Step work in those early days posed an almost insuperable problem. As the

public became aware of Alanon, they regarded it as a sought of AA headquarters,

with the result that by phone, mail and personal calls, every passing day

brought a steady stream of requests for help from social workers, the clergy,

family, courts, the police, welfare agencies, ordinary citizens, and, of course,

AAs everywhere. But it got to be too much. We hadn't the manpower to cope with

the calls, and besides, most AAs came to the club for relaxation, having

attended to their AA work, including the 12th Step, through their own groups.

They looked to Alanon for social diversion with other dry AAs. We finally

realized we had to be a club or a clinic – we could not be both.



INTERGROUP

The Intergroup Committee cleared the way for the necessary separation. The club

had made the formation of Intergroup possible after earlier efforts along these

lines had failed for lack of a common meeting place and other facilities. The

same membership that founded Alanon also organized Intergroup, and it was

thought at first that both units could function efficiently in combination. In

fact, the same person acted as secretary and manager for both organizations.

However, the joint operation lasted only a little more than a year when it

collapsed amid confusion and dissatisfaction



SEPARATION

Then the separation was made complete. Both Alanon and Intergroup revamped their

policies, the former becoming exclusively a social club and recreation center

for dry AAs in good standing, and the Committee a central clearance station for

AA groups and members, mass meetings, information, and our relations with the

world outside. The result has met with commendable success. All confusion has

ended and each organization is operating with incomparably greater efficiency.

Both units now are completely separate and independent of each other, save in

one respect. Rent free, Intergroup maintains its private office in the club and

holds the monthly mass meetings there. However, in the belief that its central

office can function better away from the club the Intergroup is presently

seeking other quarters.



BILL'S IDEAS

We are including below excerpts from Founder Bill's article on Clubs in AA, now

officially part of AA Tradition. We believe the Alanon operation in Newark is

not inconsistent with Bill's present thinking. There is real separation of the

material from the spiritual. The business of AA is not encroached upon. Newark

is the center of a large urban area, but more than three years of successful

operation has demonstrated that it is possible for this club to be a continuing

help to alcoholics, in strict accordance with AA principles.



COME IN; IT'S YOURS

Alanon's doors are always open to AAs everywhere. We bid welcome to all. Guest

may be had for the asking. Owner-membership is open to all AAs in good standing

after thirty days in any group.



Excerpts from

CLUBS IN AA

By BILL



The club idea has become part of A.A. life. Scores of these hospitable havens

can report years of useful service; new ones are being started monthly. Were a

vote taken tomorrow on the desirability of clubs a sizeable majority of A.A.s

would record a resounding "Yes." There would be thousands who would testify that

they might have had a harder time staying sober in their first months of A.A.

without clubs and that, in any case, they would always wish the easy contacts

and warm friendships which clubs afford.



…Toward a middle ground, for several years now, we have been feeling our way.

Despite alarms it is quite settled that A.A.s who need and want clubs ought to

have them. Throughout the country most clubs have started like ours did. At

first we regard them as central A.A. institutions. But later experience

invariably brings a shift in their status, a shift much to be desired, we now

think.



This tangle slowly commenced to unravel, as we began to get the idea that clubs

ought to be strictly the business of those individuals who especially want

clubs, and who are willing to pay for them. We began to see that club management

is a pure business proposition which ought to be separately incorporated under

another name such, for example, as "Alanon"; that the "directors" of a club

corporation ought to look after club business only; that an A.A. group, as such,

should never get into active management of a business project. Hectic experience

has since taught us that if an A.A. rotating committee tries to boss the club

corporation or if the corporation tries to run the A.A. affairs of those groups

who may meet at the club there is difficulty at once. The only way we have found

to cure this is to separate the material from the spiritual.



Questions are often asked: "Who elects the business directors of a club?" And

"Does club membership differ from A.A. membership?" As practices vary we don't

quite know the answers yet. The most reasonable suggestions seem these: Any A.A.

member ought to feel free to enjoy the ordinary privileges of any A.A. club

whether be makes a regular voluntary contribution or not. If he contributes

regularly be should, in addition be entitled to vote in the business meetings

which elect the business directors of his club corporation. This would open all

clubs to all A.A.s. But it would limit their business conduct to those

interested enough to contribute regularly.



In this connection we might remind ourselves that in A.A. we have no fees or

compulsory dues. But it ought to be added, of course, that since clubs are

becoming separate and private ventures they can be run on other lines if their

members insist.



Acceptance of large sums from any source to buy, build or finance clubs almost

invariably leads to later headaches. Public solicitation is, of course,

extremely dangerous. Complete self-support of clubs and everything else

connected with A.A. is becoming our universal practice.



Club evolution is also telling us this: In none but small communities are clubs

likely to remain the principal centers of A.A. activity. Originally starting as

the main center of a city many a club moves to larger and larger quarters,

thinking to retain the central meeting for its area within its own walls.

Finally, however, circumstances defeat this purpose.



Circumstance number one is that the growing A.A. will burst the walls of any

clubhouse. Sooner or later the principal or central meeting has to be moved into

a large auditorium. The club can't hold it. This is a fact which ought to be

soberly contemplated whenever we think of buying or building large clubhouses. A

second circumstance seems sure to leave most clubs in an "off center" position,

especially in large cities. That is our strong tendency toward central or

intergroup committee management of the common A.A. problems of metropolitan

areas. Every area, sooner or later, realizes that such concerns as intergroup

meetings, hospital arrangements, local public relations, a central office for

interviews and information, are things in which every A.A. is interested,

whether be has any use for clubs or not. These being strictly A.A. matters, a

central or intergroup committee has to be elected and financed to look after

them. The groups of an area will usually support with group funds these truly

central activities. Even though the club is still large enough for intergroup

meetings and these meetings are still held, the center of gravity for the area

will continue to shift to the intergroup committee and its central activities.

The club is left definitely offside; where, in the opinion of many, it should

be. Actively supported and managed by those who want clubs, they can be "taken

or left alone." Should these principles be fully applied to our clubs, we shall

have placed ourselves in a position to enjoy their warmth yet drop any that get

too hot. We shall then realize that a club is but a valuable social aid. And,

more

important still, we shall always preserve the simple A.A. group as that primary

spiritual entity whence issues our greatest strength.



* * *

The Board of Trustees

Alanon Association Inc.

Of New Jersey





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Miller <cm53@...> wrote:

>

> In the late 90's I attended an Archives Workshop held at the "Alanon

Association" club in Newark, NJ. (This name is a contraction of alcoholics

Anonymous. The Al-anon Fellowship had not been founded yet.)

>

> This building had been purchased and opened as a Clubhouse in the early 40's.

(One of the first--it was a big deal.) As I recall, it had 3 floors -- one with

restaurant/catering facilities, one with a bowling alley -- and of course,

meeting rooms. It was said that this was the model AA complex talked about in

Tradition 4. Could some North Jersey member corroborate/correct this info?

>

> North Jersey has GREAT Archives. Saw the actual "Rule 62" card displayed

there, as well as many fliers for events with Bill W. in attendance.

>

> In service,

> Cindy Miller

>


0 -1 0 0
7219 Rae Turnbull
Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors 3/10/2011 9:18:00 PM


Hello,



My question is: In segment 3 of "Language of the Heart" Bill W prefaces the

article  "Our Critics Can Be Our Benefactors" by stating "When a magazine

criticizing aspects of AA raised questions about AA's relationships to medicine,

religion, and the world at large ...."



Does anyone know which magazine he was referring to and what date the article

was published?



Thanks for any help with this question.



Rae T

Bookmarks

Corpus Christi, Texas


0 -1 0 0
7220 Robert Stonebraker
Looking for a photo of Jim Newton Looking for a photo of Jim Newton 3/10/2011 11:16:00 PM


Could someone kindly send me a picture of the Jim Newton who helped Bud

Firestone find sobriety?



Thanks in advance!



Bob S.

___________________________________________



Mail to: <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>

(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)



Bob Stonebraker

212 SW 18th Street

Richmond, Indiana 47374

phone (765) 935-0130


0 -1 0 0
7221 ron.fulkerson@comcast.net
Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors 3/11/2011 7:39:00 AM


Rae,



The article was in HARPER'S Magazine, February 1963, written by Arthur H. Cain.

If you love AA and it saved your life, this article is a tough read.



-- ronf



(Should you want copies, let us know.)



- - - -



Message #7219 from Rae Turnbull <raeturnbull@sbcglobal.net> (raeturnbull at

sbcglobal.net)



In segment 3 of "Language of the Heart" Bill W prefaces the article "Our

Critics Can Be Our Benefactors" by stating "When a magazine criticizing aspects

of AA raised questions about AA's relationships to medicine, religion, and the

world at large ...." Does anyone know which magazine he was referring to and

what date the article was published?


0 -1 0 0
7222 Michael
Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 11:21:00 AM


Hi all,



This was not a letter to AA. This was simply a Bulletin from NA's Word Services

prepared for their own membership (from 1985). You can view it on the NA website

[OR SEE THE COPY OF THAT BULLETIN BELOW]:



http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r



I have seen this before and for the life of me I don't see how anyone could

interpret this as a message to AA telling them to "Stop killing our people by

telling them they can join AA" (Did he mean "can't instead of can? Either way I

don't see it.)



To me this bulletin is stressing respect between the fellowships and simply

outlining a different philosophy when it comes to the First Step. I don't see

anything contentious in there. In fact, it really seems to me that the bulletin

is calling out their own members to check their attitudes toward AA and stop

fostering any anti AA feelings.



The fellowships have so much in common and mature members in both have a mutual

respect for each other and see the commonality. We're cut from the same cloth

(Bill said we were "cousins" to the drug addict) and we're both striving for the

same thing.



Thanks,

Mike Margetis

Brunswick, Maryland





=============================================

NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS WORLD SERVICES Bulletin #13

http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r



Some thoughts regarding our

relationship to Alcoholics Anonymous



This article was generated by the World Service Board of Trustees in November

1985 in response to the needs of the fellowship. This bulletin was revised

during the 1995-1996 conference year.



The question of just how Narcotics Anonymous relates to all other fellowships

and organizations is one which may generate controversy within our fellowship.

In spite of the fact that we have a stated policy of "cooperation, not

affiliation" with outside organizations confusion remains. One such sensitive

issue involves our relationship to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Letters have been received by the World Service Board of Trustees asking a

variety of questions about this relationship.



Narcotics Anonymous is modeled after Alcoholics Anonymous. Nearly every NA

community in existence has leaned to some degree on AA in its formative stages.

Our relationship with that fellowship over the years has been very real and

dynamic. Our fellowship itself sprang from the turmoil within AA over what to

do with the addicts knocking on its doors. We will look at our roots for some

perspective on our current relationship to AA.



Bill W, one of AA's co-founders, often said that one of AA's greatest strengths

is its single-minded focus on one thing and one thing only. By limiting its

primary purpose to carrying the message to alcoholics, and avoiding all other

activities, AA is able to do that one thing supremely well. The atmosphere of

identification is preserved by that purity of focus, and alcoholics get help.



From very early on, AA was confronted by a perplexing problem: "What do we do

with drug addicts? We want to keep our focus on alcohol so the alcoholic hears

the message, but these addicts come in here talking about drugs, inadvertently

weakening our atmosphere of identification." The steps were written, the Big

Book was written—what were they supposed to do, rewrite it all? Allow the

atmosphere of identification to get blurry so that no one got a clear sense of

belonging? Kick these dying people back out into the streets? The problem must

have been a tremendous one for them.



When they finally studied the problem carefully and took a stand in their

literature, the solution they outlined possessed their characteristic common

sense and wisdom. They pledged their support in a spirit of "cooperation, not

affiliation." This farsighted solution to a difficult concern paved the way for

the development of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship.



But still, the problem that they wished to avoid would have to be addressed by

any group that tried to adapt AA’s program of recovery to drug addicts. How

do you achieve the atmosphere of identification so necessary for surrender and

recovery if you let all different kinds of addicts in? Can someone with a

heroin problem relate to someone with an alcohol or marijuana or Valium problem?

How will you ever achieve the unity that the First Tradition says is necessary

for recovery? Our fellowship inherited a tough dilemma.



For some perspective on how we handled that dilemma, one more look at AA history

is helpful. Another thing Bill W. frequently wrote and spoke about was what he

called the "tenstrike" of AA—the wording of the Third and Eleventh Steps. The

whole area of spirituality versus religion was as perplexing for them as unity

was for us. Bill liked to recount that the simple addition of the words "as we

understood Him" after the word "God" killed that controversy in one chop. An

issue that had the potential to divide and destroy AA was converted into the

cornerstone of the program by that simple turn of phrase.



As the founders of Narcotics Anonymous adapted our steps, they came up with a

"tenstrike" of perhaps equal importance. Rather than converting the First Step

in a natural, logical way ("we admitted that we were powerless over drugs..."),

they made a radical change in that step. They wrote, "We admitted that we were

powerless over our addiction..." Drugs are a varied group of substances, the

use of any of which is but a symptom of our disease. When addicts gather and

focus on drugs, they are usually focusing on their differences, because each of

us used a different drug or combination of drugs. The one thing that we all

share is the disease of addiction. With that single turn of a phrase, the

foundation of the Narcotics Anonymous Fellowship was laid.



Our First Step gives us one focus: our addiction. The wording of Step One also

takes the focus of our powerlessness off the symptom and places it on the

disease itself. The phrase "powerless over a drug" does not go far enough for

most of us in recovery—the desire to use has been removed—but "powerless

over our addiction" is as relevant to the oldtimer as it is to the newcomer.

Our addiction begins to resurface and cause unmanageability in our thoughts and

feelings whenever we become complacent in our program of recovery. This process

has nothing to do with "drug of choice." We guard against the recurrence of our

drug use by applying our spiritual principles, before a relapse. Our First Step

applies regardless of drug of choice and length of clean time. With this

"tenstrike" as its foundation, NA has begun to flourish as a major worldwide

organization, clearly focusing on addiction.



As any NA community matures in its understanding of its own principles

(particularly Step One), an interesting fact emerges. The AA perspective, with

its alcohol-oriented language, and the NA approach, with its clear need to shift

the focus away from specific drugs, don’t mix well. When we try to mix them,

we find that we have the same problem as AA had with us all along! When our

members identify as "addicts and alcoholics" or talk about "sobriety" and living

"clean and sober," the clarity of the NA message is blurred. The implication in

this language is that there are two diseases, that one drug is separate from

another, so a separate set of terms is needed when discussing addiction. At

first glance this seems minor, but our experience clearly shows that the full

impact of the NA message is crippled by this subtle semantic confusion.



It has become clear that our common identification, our unity, and our full

surrender as addicts depends on a clear understanding of our most fundamental

principles: We are powerless over a disease that gets progressively worse when

we use any drug. It does not matter what drug was at the center for us when we

arrived. Any drug we use will release our disease all over again. We recover

from the disease of addiction by applying our Twelve Steps. Our steps are

uniquely worded to carry this message clearly, so the rest of our language of

recovery must be consistent with our steps. We cannot mix these fundamental

principles with those of our parent fellowship without crippling our own

message.



Both fellowships have a Sixth Tradition for a reason: to keep each one from

being diverted from its own primary purpose. Because of the inherent need of a

Twelve Step fellowship to focus on one thing and one thing only, so that it can

do that one thing supremely well, each Twelve Step fellowship must stand alone,

unaffiliated with everything else. It is in our nature to be separate, to feel

separate, and use a separate set of recovery terms, because we each have a

separate, unique primary purpose. The focus of AA is on the alcoholic, and we

ought to respect that fellowship’s perfect right to adhere to its own

traditions and protect its focus. If we cannot use language consistent with

that, we ought not go to their meetings and undermine that atmosphere. In the

same way, we NA members ought to respect our own primary purpose and identify

ourselves at NA meetings simply as addicts, and share in a way that keeps our

message clear.



A casual, cursory glance at AA’s success in delivering recovery to alcoholics

over the years makes it abundantly clear that theirs is a successful program.

Their literature, their service structure, the quality of their members'

recovery, their sheer numbers, the respect they enjoy from society—these

things speak for themselves. Our members ought not embarrass us by adopting a

"we're better than them" posture. That can only be counterproductive.



As a fellowship, we must continue to strive to move forward by not stubbornly

clinging to one radical extreme or the other. Our members who have been

unintentionally blurring the NA message by using drug-specific language such as

"sobriety," "alcoholic," "clean and sober," "dope fiend," etc., could help by

identifying simply and clearly as addicts, and using the words "clean," "clean

time," and "recovery," which imply no particular substance. We all could help

by referring to only our own literature at meetings, thereby avoiding any

implied endorsement or affiliation. Our principles stand on their own. For the

sake of our development as a fellowship and the personal recovery of our

members, our approach to the problem of addiction must shine through clearly in

what we say and do at meetings.



Our members who have used these arguments to rationalize an anti-AA stand,

thereby alienating many sorely needed stable members, would do well to

re-evaluate and reconsider the effects of that kind of behavior. Narcotics

Anonymous is a spiritual fellowship. Love, tolerance, patience, and cooperation

are essential if we are to live our principles.



Let's devote our energies to our personal spiritual development through our own

Twelve Steps. Let's carry our own message clearly. There's a lot of work to be

done, and we need each other if we are to be effective. Let's move forward in a

spirit of NA unity.



(Reprinted from Newsline Vol. 2, No. 6.)

=============================================





Original message from "David" <Inkman3@...> said:

>

> I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to

AA's GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can

join AA.

>

> My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And

if it does exist, where could I find a copy of it?


0 -1 0 0
7223 Chris Budnick
RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 2:32:00 AM


My friend Boyd and I have made two trips to the AA GSO in the past 18 months

after we had research applications approved for the purpose of viewing the

archives for any correspondence/information between AA GSO and other

individuals/groups/fellowships dealing with problems other than alcohol. We

spent a total of four days scouring over everything we could find on Addicts

Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous (4 distinct efforts - New York, California,

Cleveland and Montreal), and others.



The only correspondence we found from Narcotics Anonymous World Services to the

GSO were:



1. A response from the GSO in 1989 to a request for any

correspondence/information about NA



2. An undated response to a similar request that references the 1989 request



We did not come across a letter from NA World Services making any such request.

On the contrary, much of what we discovered involved correspondence that led up

to the Bill's 1958 Grapevine article: Problems Other Than Alcohol: What Can Be

Done About Them?"



There is one other piece of correspondence that is noteworthy. The following

letter is from an employee, at the time, of the NA World Service Office, which

was submitted to the Grapevine. See below.



Thanks,

Chris B.

Raleigh, North Carolina





============================================

March 1986



Vol. 42 No. 10



Another Vision for You



I am not a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, but I am among the millions of people

who owe our lives to the Twelve Steps of recovery. Bill W.'s vision of other

societies similar to AA forming to address problems other than alcoholism is

very much a reality today. Thanks to the inspiration and vision of your

co-founders, and the current generosity of your Fellowship in sharing its

experience, a few of these other Fellowships are becoming strong, well-developed

programs of recovery, with a network of local and world services, hotlines,

literature, old-timers, service centers employing special workers -- all the

necessary ingredients.



As a member of one of those other Fellowships, I'm writing to the Grapevine as

an outside writer, but the issue I'm addressing is not an outside issue. I'm

writing about addicts attending AA meetings -- perhaps an issue that most of us

are tired of dealing with -- but one whose solution is finally at hand. After

years of internal controversy in AA (and in fellowships modeled after AA), just

maybe we're at a place where the turmoil can stop. The solution envisioned by

Bill W., articulated in your pamphlet Problems Other Than Alcohol, can finally

be implemented with confidence.



I am a drug addict who came to AA in 1978 looking for help. When the suggestion

that I go to AA to address my drug problem was first put to me I was puzzled.

"My problem is this other drug. Why would I go to AA?" It was explained to me

that AA is what works, and no one could kick me out. No one has the authority to

do that. "Just substitute alcohol for your drug," I was told, "and it will

work."



I did that. I went to AA for a period of about four years. I learned the

"passwords" that would not offend the oldtimers, and I made a place for myself

in your Fellowship. I was also introduced to Narcotics Anonymous from the very

beginning, but in 1978 NA had very little literature, no old-timers locally to

serve as sponsors, no network of services for its groups. I went to that NA

meeting to identify more fully and share more fully, and I went to AA for the

substance of recovery. Those were the realities of being a recovering drug

addict in the upper Midwest in the late seventies.



As I stayed around and observed both Fellowships closely, I could not miss the

great dilemma that was brewing about us addicts in AA. I did not take this

problem personally, because I read the words of Bill W. and they made sense.

The primary purpose of every AA group is to carry its message to the alcoholic

who still suffers. As AA groups try to carry their message to anyone else, that

atmosphere of identification for the alcoholic is weakened. If an alcoholic

walks into an AA meeting and encounters a discussion among junkies, gamblers,

overeaters, or whatever, that alcoholic may just miss his shot at the miracle. I

slowly became more and more aware that I was the outsider in AA; that old-timer

who got irritated when I shared about my drug use was on his home ground, and I

was straining his Traditions. It has been a tough issue for us all.



But what were the AA people to do in 1978? Throw us out? Even if that were

possible in AA, who had the heart? "What would the Master do?" it says in the

"Twelve and Twelve." Where would we go? Most of our NA groups were not part of a

worldwide structure that could sustain us in recovery. In many places, the

compromise measure seems to have been to just overlook the issue as best as we

could and go on about our recovery. And the wisdom of the co-founder has been

borne out again. Many AA groups have become a mix of alcoholics and people

addicted to other drugs, and many of those NA groups' growth has been stunted.

They were not seriously regarded as part of a separate Fellowship capable of

sustaining recovery. The service of recovering addicts went into AA services. As

addicts got some time in recovery, they became AA sponsors. The texture of the

AA community was slowly drifting from a clear atmosphere of identification for

the alcoholic, and the texture of those isolated NA groups was remaining pretty

static.



With the eighties came a vast change in that scenario. More and more recovering

addicts began to turn our attention to the developing Fellowship of NA. We got

busy writing literature, developing our services at every level, refining our

own thinking and language for our own principles of recovery. We had learned so

much from our forerunners in AA, and now we were breaking some new ground.



It has been an exciting period of new hope for the addict who still suffers. And

ironically, maybe it is an exciting period of renewed hope for the alcoholic who

still suffers too. By going exclusively to NA, doing my service in NA, growing

in my understanding of the NA message, I have left the AA groups just a little

freer to focus on their own primary purpose. That is not personal. It's sound

principle.



Today NA is thriving. We have our own basic text, and we're in the later stages

of producing a book on our Steps and Traditions. We are experiencing the kind

of booming growth that AA experienced in the forties. Our world services are

coming together in a way that can only be attributed to a loving God, expressing

himself in our group conscience. It has been a time of the joy and pain of rapid

growth for us, and we expect this growth rate to continue for some time to come.



I guess I'm really saying a number of things. First, thank you AA, for your

wisdom in taking the stand that you can best help the addict not by allowing us

to become members, but by offering us the model of your program and inspiring us

to build our own. Even though the realities of life have sometimes forced us all

to compromise, your Conference and your written word never lost perspective.

That vision is now bearing fruit. I also want to assure you that strong, stable,

long-term recovery is available today in NA, so the days of worrying that

addicts are just being kicked out into the street are over. Many addicts are

pointed in our direction by AA groups adhering to their own primary purpose. A

fast friendship, based on "cooperation, not affiliation," is cropping up between

us everywhere.



It goes without saying that these words are one member's views -- I do not speak

for my Fellowship any more than these other articles speak for yours. But let's

all look at these issues now from the vantage point of our best spiritual vision

of the future. The time for coming to rest on this issue is finally at hand.



R. H.



Northridge, California

============================================


0 -1 0 0
7224 John Moore
Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line 3/14/2011 2:44:00 PM


A project is underway to microfilm the Stepping Stones archival material,

digitize it, and eventually make it available to researchers on line.



See this article by Rob Ryser entitled

"Bedford archives of AA co-founder to be preserved"



http://www.lohud.com/article/20110314/NEWS02/103140343/Bedford-archives-AA-co-fo\

%5Cunder-preserved?odyssey=nav
|head





BEDFORD HILLS — Anyone who has ever loved a drunk knows how much a pledge to

quit drinking is worth.



But these are not ordinary broken promises.



The quit-drinking oaths that a certain Bill Wilson swore to his wife 80 years

ago on the family Bible are now considered so valuable to the Alcoholics

Anonymous story and to American history in general that they can no longer be

entrusted merely to safe storage here at the couple's historic home and grounds.



"Those archives are a national treasure," said Manhattan writer Susan Cheever,

who used the archives extensively for her 2004 biography of Wilson. "AA is one

of the most extraordinary things that has ever happened in our world, and he was

one of the three or four most important men of the 20th century."



A $175,000 campaign is under way to permanently protect the famous broken oaths

and some 120,000 other writings of Wilson, the co-founder of AA, and his wife,

Lois, the co-founder of the Al-Anon movement for families of alcoholics.



"In the grand scheme of things, these are priceless," said Annah Perch,

executive director of the Stepping Stones Foundation, the nonprofit that manages

the Wilson legacy. "The sooner this stuff goes off-site and becomes microfilmed

and digitized, the sooner we will be safe from a natural disaster."



The idea is not only to make duplicates of the original documents as insurance

against fire or flood, but to create a digital archive and put it online. That

would make the archive much more widely available than it is now.



As it is today, scholars and authors must apply for access to the documents.



For everyone else, getting close to the first couple of recovery is restricted

to a few items that were recently made available at a new Welcome Center on the

Stepping Stones grounds. The listing of their Dutch Colonial home on the

National Register of Historic Places helped raise the profile of their mission

in the middle part of the last decade. But the real impact of the 40 years the

couple lived locally continues to play out in the lives of recovering alcoholics

and their families.



Wilson proclaimed alcoholism a disease three decades before the American Medical

Association did. The 12-step recovery solution that Wilson and co-founder Dr.

Bob Smith created reversed the historically held belief that hard drunks could

not stay sober, and it became the standard treatment in U.S. hospitals and

clinics.



"It is the only way we have to deal with addiction, and we live in an age of

addiction," said Cheever, whose memoir of her father, John Cheever, documented

the writer's battle with alcohol. "Bill Wilson truly changed the way we think

about ourselves."



All the more reason to protect the archives, said filmmaker Kevin Hanlon.



"I think it is impossible to understand Bill Wilson's life without these

remarkable archives," said Hanlon, who recently finished shooting in Bedford

Hills for a documentary about Wilson. "It is a story that resonates for an awful

lot of people who don't suffer from alcoholism or know people who are

alcoholics, although it strikes me how few people there are who don't know

someone who has struggled with alcohol."



About one-third of the archive collection has already been sent to the company

doing the preservation work with $25,000 that has already been raised for the

effort.



"We had so much faith in our donor community in how they have responded to our

needs in the past that we started the project without all of the money in hand,"

Perch said.

__________________________________



Sent in by John Moore

South Burlington, Vermont

<contact.johnmoore@gmail.com>

(contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)


0 -1 0 0
7225 stalban2001
RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 6:40:00 PM


As a former member of the Narcotics Anonymous Board of Trustees and an NA member

with 36 years of recovery, I can assure you that no such letter was ever sent to

my watch or by anyone I know. While I'm no longer active at the world level, I

know the people serving there as trusted servant and special service workers,

and I'm confident that they have a good enough understanding of the Traditions

not to have written such a preposterous letter.



However, I can't speak for all our members at all times. It's possible that an

over-zealous NA member whose AA experience was not positive wrote something like

that out of ignorance.



By the way, NA's "world headquarters," based in California, are known variously

as the World Service Office (WSO) or NA World Services (NAWS). NAWS is used as a

collective to include the World Service Conference (WSC).



- - - -



P.S. That Bulletin was written by the NA Board of Trustees in 1985-86 as part of

a series of essays clarifying issues pertaining to the development of Narcotics

Anonymous and its philosophy of recovery. Its provenance is quite clear and is

still reprinted by NAWS for use by NA members.



Its tone regarding AA is quite respectful and nowhere do I see it enjoining the

AA Fellowship to "stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA."

_________________________________________



Original message #7216 from "David" <Inkman3@webtv.net>

(Inkman3 at webtv.net)



I have heard a story about a purported letter sent from NA headquarters to AA's

GSO saying, in effect, Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA.



My question is: is this just an urban legend or does such a letter exist? And if

it does exist, where could I find a copy of it?


0 -1 0 0
7226 Angela Corelis
Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 8:41:00 PM


From: Bob Cohen <a1abob@yahoo.com>

To: Angela Corelis <acorelis@yahoo.com>



This wasn't written to AA but as an internal information to NA members and

anyone that wanted to read it. We actually use part of this in the NA opening

statement that the Sunshine Group reads prior to the regular readings.

Drugs alone didn't cover enough but they changed it to addiction -- that puts

everyone on a level playing field, in fact one of the main reading states that:



"We don't care what or how much you used, who your connections were, how much or

how little you have, just what you want to do and how we can help."



NA started because some well meaning AAs tried to help frustrated addicts that

couldn't identify in AA, and helped them form groups, as they were dually

addicted themselves. Even Bill Wilson begged addicts to start an NA of some type

long before NA started, as he saw that addiction could be worse than alcoholism

alone, which is written in the 12 and 12 I believe.



Bob

___________________________________________



Re: Is this legend about NA writing AA true?



>Hi all,This was not a letter to AA. This was simply a Bulletin from NA's Word

Services prepared for their own membership (from 1985). You can view it on the

NA website [OR SEE THE COPY OF THAT BULLETIN BELOW]

:http://www.wsoinc.com/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r I have seen this before and for

the life of me I don't see how anyone could interpret this as a message to AA

telling them to "Stop killing our people by telling them they can join AA" ....

To me this bulletin is stressing respect between the fellowships and simply

outlining a different philosophy when it comes to the First Step. I don't see

anything contentious in there. In fact, it really seems to me that the bulletin

is calling out their own members to check their attitudes toward AA and stop

fostering any anti AA feelings. The fellowships have so much in common and

mature members in both have a mutual respect for each other and see the

commonality. We're cut from the same cloth (Bill said we were "cousins" to the

drug addict) and we're both striving for the same thing.



Thanks,Mike Margetis

Brunswick, Maryland


0 -1 0 0
7227 Sally Brown
RE: Is this legend about NA writing AA true? Is this legend about NA writing AA true? 3/11/2011 8:08:00 PM


Thank you, Chris, for publishing this excellent article. Maybe AA will come to

the public realization someday that poly-addiction is far more common than

addiction to any one drug alone.



Also, most people have no idea about Bill Wilson's passion for scientific

information. I personally have no doubt that he would eventually have realized

the massive development of poly-addiction, and taken steps to educate his, and

our, beloved AA community how they might reorganize themselves.



Shalom - Sally Brown



Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain

United Church of Christ

coauthor with David R Brown:

A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann

The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous



1470 Sand Hill Rd, 310

www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258



________________________________________



For a copy of the article, see Message no. 7223

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7223



From "Chris Budnick" <cbudnick@nc.rr.com>

(cbudnick at nc.rr.com)



In this message, Chris gives a copy of a letter "from an employee, at the time,

of the NA World Service Office, which was submitted to the Grapevine" in Vol. 42

No. 10 (March 1986), entitled "Another Vision for You"


0 -1 0 0
7228 intuited
God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics in AA God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics in AA 3/5/2011 11:59:00 PM


Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we

understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit

an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?



Was his/her story published?



I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured

Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.



As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly

being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of

references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious

beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories

and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.



The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a

pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and

agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st

Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very

curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way

to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?



Amelia


0 -1 0 0
7229 Glenn Chesnut
Re: God as we understood Him: the atheist''s story God as we understood Him: the atheist''s story 3/16/2011 4:30:00 PM


AA historians tell us that the words "as we understood Him" were inserted into

the twelve steps to allow an atheist among the early AA group to remain a member

of the group.



In the preceding message, Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> asked: was his/her

story published?



The atheist was Jim Burwell, and there are a lot of messages on the

AAHistoryLovers site talking about his story. If you go to our Message Board at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages and put Burwell

into the little search box at the top, you can call up 108 different messages

talking about him.



Henry (Hank) Parkhurst is often included in a discussion of this issue, but he

and Burwell held quite different points of view, at least in my reading of the

documents from that era, particularly what Hank himself wrote when the book

project was first being discussed.



Burwell was a complete atheist, or at least was very doubtful about any kind of

God existing.



But Hank's position was more complicated. He regarded the proposed Big Book

project as the writing, NOT of a complete description of the whole program, but

only of an introductory book to entice people into the AA program. He felt that

talking about God in the book would scare too many people away, so he wanted the

book to only talk about the psychological aspects of the program. After

alcoholics had been persuaded by that book to start coming to AA meetings, they

could be gently exposed in gradual fashion to the serious spiritual content of

the program and helped in developing a useful understanding of God.



AMONG THE PREVIOUS MESSAGES, SEE FOR EXAMPLE:



http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm

The Vicious Cycle

2nd edition p. 238, 3rd edition p. 238, 4th edition p. 219

Jim Burwell, Maryland

- - - -

Jim was twelfth stepped into the fellowship on January 8, 1938. But he had a

slip in June of that year. His last drink was June 16, 1938.

- - - -

Jim is usually given credit for the third tradition, that the only requirement

for membership is a desire to stop drinking. He also is credited with the use of

"God as we understood Him" in the Steps. (Jim, an agnostic, was militantly

opposed to too much talk of God in the Big Book, but he said later that his

agnostic stance had mellowed over the years.)

- - - -

The Unbeliever

Original manuscript p. 7, 1st edition p. 194

Henry [Hank] Parkhurst NY

- - - -

Hank was the first man Bill Wilson was successful in sobering up after returning

from his famous trip to Akron where he met Dr. Bob. Thus Hank was A.A. #2 in New

York prior to resuming drinking about four years later. His original date of

sobriety was either October or November 1935.

- - - -

Hank was a salesman, an agnostic, and a former Standard Oil of New Jersey

executive, who had lost his job because of drinking.

- - - -

He and Jim Burwell ("The Vicious Cycle"), led the fight against too much talk of

God in the 12 steps, which resulted in the compromise "God as we understood

Him."

- - - -

No one knows exactly when Hank had started drinking again, but in the diary Lois

Wilson kept there are various September 1939 entries that mention that Hank was

drunk. He did get back on the program for a short time at some later date but it

didn't last. Nevertheless, A.A. owes Hank a debt of gratitude for his many

contributions during his all too short period of sobriety.



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6515

During the writing of the Big Book, Fitz insisted that the book should express

Christian doctrines and use Biblical terms and expressions. Hank and Jim B.

opposed him. The compromise was "God as we understood Him."



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6588

If you listen to Jimmy Burwell's tapes (Jimmy "The Atheist") he talks about how

as early as 1937 the drunks among the early Oxford Groupers were meeting in

Bill's house at 182 Clinton Street, and often at Stewart's Cafeteria nearby.



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5489

The story began when Bob B., a paint store owner in Richmond, got sober by

visiting a business associate in Philadelphia, a man named JIM BURWELL who had

gotten sober in 1938 and had started A.A. in that city.



Jim's story in the Big Book is called "The Vicious Cycle" (it is on page 219 in

the current 4th edition).



Jim was the early New York A.A. group's first "self-proclaimed atheist," the one

who insisted that the phrase "as we understood Him" had to be added to the

reference to God in Steps 3 and 11.



__________________________________________



Original message from Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at

earthlink.net)





Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we

understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit

an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?



Was his/her story published?



I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured

Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.



As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly

being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of

references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious

beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories

and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.



The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a

pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and

agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st

Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very

curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way

to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?



Amelia


0 -1 0 0
7230 Glenn Chesnut
Re: God as we understood Him: goddess worship God as we understood Him: goddess worship 3/16/2011 4:31:00 PM


In a preceding message, Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> wrote: "Glenn, I'm

puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term 'as we understood Him.' I

would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit an atheist's

philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?"



- - - -



HIM VS. HER



Amelia, at the time the Big Book was written, teachers who taught English

grammar would instruct their students that:

(1) when you knew that a person was female, you used the pronouns she and her.

(2) when you knew that a person was male, you used the pronouns he and him.

(3) But he and him were the generic gender-neutral pronouns, so you also used he

and him if you did not know whether the person was male or female.



So in 1939, the year the Big Book was published, the phrase "God as we

understood Him" could be read as referring to either a male God or a female

Goddess.



But the world had already begun to change. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movement



The first wave of the modern feminist movement concluded (in the United States)

with the passage in 1919-20 (right after the First World War) of the Nineteenth

Amendment to the United States Constitution, which granted women the right to

vote.



The second wave of the U.S. feminist movement began after the Second World War.

By the 1970's and 1980's, the feminist movement was regularly arguing that the

traditional grammatical conventions were demeaning of women. You should only use

he and him in situations where you knew that the person was male. If you meant

what you were saying to refer to both males and females, you had to use phrases

like "he or she," "him or her," and other phrases of that sort.



(One thing to keep in mind though, when discussing this issue, is that the

gender of the third person singular pronoun was for the most part only really a

big issue in English in the 1970's and 80's. In European languages like French,

German, Spanish, Italian, and so on, that still assign a grammatical gender to

all nouns, grammatical gender is not felt to be the same as sexual gender. And

in some of the other languages of the world, like Finnish, so I am told, there

are third person singular pronouns which can refer to either a male or a female,

which neatly eliminates the problem.)



- - - -



GODDESS WORSHIP



Like the him vs. her issue, except for a few relatively isolated examples, it

was not until the 1970's and 1980's that Goddess worship became much talked

about in the western world. I doubt that anybody among the early AA group in

1939 would have thought of Goddess worship as a possibility. It would have been

highly odd at that point, at any rate.



So it was not until the 1970's and 1980's that any big problem could have been

created by large enough numbers of AA members in the western world choosing to

worship goddesses like Isis or Kali or the Triple Goddess (the Maid, the Mother,

and the Crone).



The original historical precedent that was set in 1938-1939 for interpreting the

phrase "God as we understood Him" would nevertheless make it clear that using

feminine symbols and metaphors to refer to your higher power would be perfectly

legitimate in AA. If that is the way you understand God, then that is the way

you should worship her.



- - - -



PERSONAL VS. IMPERSONAL SUPREME BEING



As a side point, in a book I just wrote, I argue that the real issue in western

religion has always been the same one which you see in eastern religions. Some

kind of higher power or supreme principle or architect of the universe or ground

of being necessarily exists. The question is whether this is an impersonal

absolute or a highly personal god or goddess. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and

Spirituality



paperback:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywo\

rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15


kindle:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZRN82/\

ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr




In the Christian tradition over the past two thousand years, some theologians

(like St. Augustine, John Wesley, and the St. Macarius who wrote the Fifty

Spiritual Homilies) had warmly personalistic conceptions of God. But there were

many other famous Christian theologians who regarded the higher power as

completely (or nearly completely) impersonal. St. Denis' higher power (c. 500

A.D.) was completely impersonal, and the God described by St. Gregory of Nyssa

in the fourth century was almost completely impersonal, as was the God described

by St. Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century. Paul Tillich (Reinhold

Niebuhr's colleague at Union Theological Seminary in New York City) taught that

God was a completely impersonal ground of being.



In the AA tradition, Richmond Walker, the author of the Twenty-four Hour book,

taught a God who was warmly personal, and who wanted to be friends with us for

the same reason that we wanted to be friends with him -- we felt isolated and

lonely all by ourselves. (A really fascinating view of God and the reason for

the creation of this universe.)



But do not fall into the trap of believing that it is only us "moderns" who

reject the fundamentalist Protestant belief in God as an old man with a white

beard sitting on a throne, and that it is only us "moderns" who believe in

esoteric New Age spirituality and are fascinated by Asian religions. Emmet Fox

taught (in his book on "The Sermon on the Mount") that God in and of himself is

just a bunch of eternal laws and principles, and that God becomes personal only

in and through us individual human beings, when we acted as agents of those

higher laws of love and positive thinking.



- - - -



HINDUISM



And Fox's other most popular book, "Power through Constructive Thinking," taught

the doctrine of reincarnation, and Richmond Walker began the 24 Hour book with a

quote from the Hindu tradition, to make the point that AA people could draw from

all the spiritual traditions of the world.



- - - -



THE HEBREW BIBLE



And the Hebrew Bible (what Christians call the Old Testament) actually used

feminine imagery to describe God more often than it used the metaphor of God as

a Father. In the New Testament, Jesus was described as the incarnation of both

the male Logos principle and the female Sophia principle: that is, Jesus was

explicitly said to be not only the "Word" but also the "Wisdom" of God,

referring to Sophia, Lady Wisdom, who in one passage in the Old Testament was

described as the Creator of the world -- see http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html .

So it would be a mistake to try to argue that God is always portrayed as male in

the Judeo-Christian tradition.

_________________________________________



Original message from Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at

earthlink.net)





Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we

understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit

an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?



Was his/her story published?



I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured

Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.



As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly

being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of

references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious

beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories

and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.



The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a

pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and

agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st

Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very

curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way

to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?



Amelia


0 -1 0 0
7231 Glenn Chesnut
Re: God as we understood Him: agnostics God as we understood Him: agnostics 3/16/2011 4:33:00 PM


In a preceding message, Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> wrote: "I recently

reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA.

Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I

began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word

to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital

spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with

meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect

of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is

in the process of publishing a pamphlet 'which focuses on spirituality that

includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in

Alcoholics Anonymous.' This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to

reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse

of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian'

spirituality?"



The Greek prefix a- means no, not, un-



>>The term "theist" refers to someone who believes that God (Theos) exists.



>>The term "a-theist" therefore refers to someone who believes that there is no

God, that God (Theos) does not exist.



>>Ginosko in ancient Greek meant "I know," so an "a-gnostic" is (literally)

someone caught in a state of "un-knowing."



- - - -



THE RISE OF WESTERN ATHEISM IN THE 1840'S



In a book I just wrote, I talk on pp. 123-124 about the Rise of Modern Atheism

in the 1840's. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality



paperback:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywo\

rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15


kindle:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZRN82/\

ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr




TRADITIONAL THEISTS: Some people in the western world rejected these new

atheistic ideas completely, and kept on trying to defend the old conceptualities

of the ancient and medieval worlds: the Bible was literally true, the church

authorities were infallible, people walked on water and rose from the dead, and

so on.



THE NEW ATHEISTS (1840 and afterwards): Other people in the western world

embraced these new atheistic ideas enthusiastically. A new world of science --

where the scientists were rapidly gaining infallible truth and explaining all

things -- was going to lead the human race out of the darkness of the past.

There would no longer be any uncontrollable natural phenomena killing people

(like earthquakes and tsunamis?), everyone in the world would be given excellent

health care (through universal health care) so that no one would ever get sick

and die any longer, our machines (oil drilling rigs and nuclear power plants)

would never malfunction and kill people, and so on.



"AGNOSTICS": But there were many people caught in the middle: they had been

brought up with traditional religious beliefs and did not want to let go of

them, and yet they had no real answers to all the attacks that the atheists were

making on their most cherished articles of faith. And there were others who had

tired of the whole debate, and insisted that they weren't going to believe

anything at all, past this point, without some kind of scientific evidence to

support it.



- - - -



THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON AGNOSTICISM



See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism



Thomas Henry Huxley gave a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in

1876, in which he coined to word "agnostic" (not-knowing, un-knowing,

non-knowing) to describe his philosophy, which was a rejection of ALL claims of

spiritual or mystical knowledge. "Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed

but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry."



But in the many years that followed, the word "agnostic" got adapted to describe

all sorts of different approaches to religion. The Wikipedia article describes

some of these varieties:



===========================================

*Agnostic atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have

belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to

know that a deity does not exist.



*Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of

any deity, but still believe in such an existence.



*Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either

the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist

appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the

question is largely academic.



*Ignosticism: The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward

before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed.

If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist

view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable.

A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and

agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and

agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be

argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or

a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth.



*Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent

agnosticism"): The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a

deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of

our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another

subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a

deity exists or not, and neither can you."



*Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal

agnosticism"): The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is

currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold

judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't

know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence

we can find something out."

===========================================



As far as I can tell, there are very few AA members who genuinely understand

what the term "agnostic" originally meant, that is, what the word meant between

1876 and 1939. Maybe a handful, but not many. And as far as I can see, the term

"agnostic" has now come to mean so many different things, that it hardly has any

real meaning left at all.



So Amelia, I think that you are probably correct when you say that, at New York

AA headquarters, the term AGNOSTIC is "being used as a code word to mean

non-Christian," that is, as a "way to talk about 'other than Christian'

spirituality."



But for myself, I think that using the word "agnostic" in this way is a misuse

of terms, because the chapter in the Big Book called "We Agnostics" was an

attempt to deal with the skeptical position which Thomas Henry Huxley put

forward in 1876. If we want a pamphlet talking about Hindu, Buddhist, New Age,

Native American spirituality, worship of the Triple Goddess, wicca, modern

California gnostic and kabbalistic groups, and other things of that sort, that

they should have titled it something different, like perhaps "Varieties of AA

Spirituality." And I also think that some of the hostility toward the pamphlet

(among a lot of AA members) might lessen to a degree if it were retitled in that

fashion. But that's just my two cents worth.

__________________________________________



Original message from Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at

earthlink.net)



Glenn, I'm puzzled that an atheist would resonate with the term "as we

understood Him." I would have thought a male gender entity/deity would not fit

an atheist's philosophy. Was he/she happy with this male gender terminology?



Was his/her story published?



I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured

Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.



As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly

being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of

references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious

beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories

and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.



The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a

pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and

agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st

Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very

curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way

to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?



Amelia


0 -1 0 0
7232 oneserene1
Re: Looking for a photo of Jim Newton Looking for a photo of Jim Newton 3/12/2011 8:42:00 PM


If you can get ahold of Mr. Newton's book 'Uncommon Friends' there are shots of

him and Bud within it (as well as photos of Messrs Edison, Ford, Firestone Sr,

Carrel and Lindbergh). There is also an account of Bud's drinking problem in the

book. It is available from amazon.com.



Michael R.



- - - -

"Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@...> wrote:

>

> Could someone kindly send me a picture of the Jim Newton who helped Bud

Firestone find sobriety?

>

> Bob S.

>

> Mail to: <rstonebraker212@...>

> (rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

>

> Bob Stonebraker

> 212 SW 18th Street

> Richmond, Indiana 47374

> phone (765) 935-0130


0 -1 0 0
7233 Robert Stonebraker
Thanks for the photos of Jim Newton Thanks for the photos of Jim Newton 3/17/2011 4:25:00 PM


Dear History Lovers Group,



I would like to offer thanks to Michael R. for his suggestion, and to the many

others who have sent pictures of Jim Newton and Bud Firestone. . . . I now have

all the photos I needed for a new book I have recently finished: "A PRE-AA

HISTORY BOOK, A Study of Synchronic Events Between Years 1926 and 1935 which

culminated in the Birth of Alcoholics Anonymous."



It is still undergoing a final proof reading, but will have a web address soon.

Of course, I can send it to you via PDF upon request, but it is just over 6 MBs.



Bob S., Richmond, Indiana

<rstonebraker212@comcast.net>

(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)



- - - -



Original message from: oneserene1

Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011

Subject: Re: Looking for a photo of Jim Newton



If you can get ahold of Mr. Newton's book 'Uncommon Friends' there are shots of

him and Bud within it (as well as photos of Messrs Edison, Ford, Firestone Sr,

Carrel and Lindbergh). There is also an account of Bud's drinking problem in the

book. It is available from amazon.com.



Michael R.


0 -1 0 0
7234 Tom Hickcox
Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy 3/17/2011 4:23:00 PM


I came across in the "A.A.'s Legacy of Service" pamphlet a reference to a person

I had not heard of before.



Bill writes, "In New York, Knickerbocker Hospital provided a ward under the care

of our first friend in medicine, Dr. William Duncan Silkworth, where he was

assisted by a redheaded A.A. nurse known as Teddy."



Can someone fill me in on this person? It infers Teddy was an A.A., a nurse,

and working in the alcoholic ward.



From Tommy H in Baton Rouge

(still more or less redheaded and married

to an alcoholic nurse, also in recovery)


0 -1 0 0
7235 Charles Knapp
Changes in the chapter To Wives Changes in the chapter To Wives 3/18/2011 1:16:00 AM


Hello Group,



I was asked a question I could not fully answer and was hoping someone could

help me finish my answer. It seems there were some changes in the wording in

part of a paragraph in Chapter 8 "To The Wives." I am looking for anyone who

might have access to all 16 printings the 1st edition Big Book. In particular I

am looking for the wording in printings 2 thru 7. I have the different wording

from the manuscript, 1st printing and printings 8 thru 16. So all I need is the

changes in printings 2 thru 7.



Here is what I have so far:



Original Manuscript:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain

state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they

would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had

no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"



1st Edition 1st printing page 127:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain

state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they

would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had

no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"



1st Edition; 8th thru 13th printing page 127:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have

been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two

hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse

whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!"



2nd, 3rd and 4th Editions page 114:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been

working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first

published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals

of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!"



Any help will be appreciated

Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
7236 lanhamcook
Emmet Fox''s secretary Emmet Fox''s secretary 3/18/2011 3:08:00 AM


In wikipedia it states that:



"Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics

Anonymous co-founder Bill W., and partly as a result of this connection early AA

groups often went to hear Fox. His writing, especially "The Sermon on the

Mount," became popular in AA."



I was curious to know if anyone knows man was who worked with Alcoholics

Anonymous?



Anybody able to shed some light on this?



thanks



JLC


0 -1 0 0
7237 jax760
Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy 3/18/2011 12:24:00 PM


Hi Tommy,



I believe if you check AA comes of Age and Language of the Heart you will find

several references to Teddy.



Regards,

John B


0 -1 0 0
7238 OedipusTax
Anne Ripley Smith''s date of birth Anne Ripley Smith''s date of birth 3/18/2011 9:53:00 AM


I believe the correct date of Anne Ripley Smith's birth is March 3, 1881.

Listed that way in Wikipedia, www.barefootworld, and www.trueknowledge.com



- - - -



From GFC the moderator:



NO, CORRECT DATE OF BIRTH SEEMS TO BE MARCH 21, 1881



AAHistoryLovers message no. 1145 says March 21, 1881:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1145



Find A Grave gives her year of birth as 1881:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=5769885



This larger photo of the tombstone clearly shows her year of birth as 1881:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/the_smiths.html



Arthur S. Narrative Timeline of AA History, the top AA date list, thoroughly

researched, says Mar 21, 1881:

http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/timelines_public.html



>> Mar 21, 1881 Anne Robinson Ripley was born in

>> the Chicago suburb of Oak Park, Illinois to

>> Joseph and Joyce Pierce Ripley.(Grapevine Jun 1950)



(It should be noted that this issue of the Grapevine

came out only a year after Anne's death, and that it

also came out BEFORE Dr. Bob died, so it is probably

trustworthy about the date of birth. Or at any rate,

it is the one I would go with.)



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
7239 Robert Stonebraker
Pre-AA History Book Pre-AA History Book 3/18/2011 2:13:00 PM


AA History Lovers Group,



I have just finished writing a new AA history book concerning the period between

1926 and our actual beginning in 1935. The 28 pages can be downloaded from this

address, it may take about a minute to open:



http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Pre_AA_History_Book_2011.pdf



I hope you enjoy the book. All information has been researched to the best of

my ability, with much help from AA historians around the country. Should you

decide to print these 28 pages, I have found it preferable to use photo paper.



It is convenient - and inexpensive - to place the pages in a 24-page

"Presentation Cover Book" with transparent sleeves (available at most office

supply stores). The advantage being that you can add/subtract new information at

will. The paradoxical thing about AA history is that something new is always

popping up.



Bob S.



******************************

In our history lies our hope!

******************************


0 -1 0 0
7240 looking@pigsfly.com>
Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors 3/11/2011 6:42:00 PM


There were two articles by Arthur H. Cain, which

can be read in full in the AAHistoryLovers (they

were posted back in May 2003):



Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?"

Harper's Magazine, February 1963

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/994



Dr. Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Can Be Cured--Despite A.A."

Saturday Evening Post, September 19, 1964

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1012



>> They were later copied from the AAHistoryLovers

>> by Agent Orange and posted on his anti-AA website, see

>> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-ahcain.html



The articles reach this conclusion: Alcoholics Anonymous should not be a cult

for the retardation of the "arrested" alcoholic. I do not suggest for a moment

that a single A.A. quit the fellowship. On the contrary, I strongly urge

sticking with it. To anyone who is having trouble with alcohol I say: try A.A.

first; it's the answer for most people.



But to those who insist upon serving A.A. as if it were a holy and apostolic

church, I say, Beware. Observe those members who seem genuinely serene. Talk

with those who have been in A.A. a long time and who really practice "live and

let live." Though A.A. is an important part of their lives, it is an adjunct,

not the whole. They have crossed the bridge from arrested alcoholism to true

recovery.


0 -1 0 0
7241 edgarc@aol.com
Two other Harper''s magazine articles (very different) Two other Harper''s magazine articles (very different) 3/12/2011 12:53:00 AM


Ronnie . . . Re your note below about the Arthur H. Cain article in Harper's

magazine, it would only be fair to balance the Harper's/AA relationship by

citing the beautiful piece in "Elpenor" in the October 1986 issue and the

"Drunk's Club" piece by "Clancy Martin" in the January 2011 issue.



Edgar C

Sarasota, Florida


0 -1 0 0
7242 Dan Roe
Clancy W. Martin article in Harper''s Magazine Clancy W. Martin article in Harper''s Magazine 3/12/2011 8:49:00 AM


Clancy W. Martin, "The drunk's club: A.A., the cult that cures," in Harper's

Magazine, January 2011. Although it will cost you to read it online, the text is

given in the magazine's archive at



http://www.harpers.org/archive/2011/01/0083250





Dan


0 -1 0 0
7243 Glenn Chesnut
Arthur H. Cain''s apology to Bill Wilson for Saturday Evening Post article Arthur H. Cain''s apology to Bill Wilson for Saturday Evening Post article 3/18/2011 4:17:00 PM


From Mel B. <melb@accesstoledo.com> (melb at accesstoledo.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3984



"The Saturday Evening Post did run a nasty

article in the Sept. 19, 1964, issue by Arthur

Cain, the same man who had written "Alcoholics

Anonymous---Cult or Cure?" for the February

1963 Harper's Magazine. Cain wrote Bill a

letter of apology for the Saturday Evening

Post article and blamed its nastiness on the

editors. Bill, though usually very kind to

critics, did not cut him much slack in replying

to Cain's apology."



"Jerome Ellison was a regular contributor to

The Saturday Evening Post and may have offered

his article to them. But he did publish one in

The Nation in 1964 and the title might have been

"Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?" He actually

called me for a piece of information while he

was writing the article, but he got it wrong

when it was published. The matter in question

concerned AA in southern Michigan and he somehow

converted it to AA in the South!"



"Jerry was upset with AA leadership because he

had been fired as editor of the Grapevine after

a short stay there. Bill took on the duty of

firing him, since Bill had recommended him for

the job. Jerry was an excellent writer and

editor but he had trouble getting along with

people at work."



____________________________________________



Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?"

Harper's Magazine, February 1963

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/994



Dr. Arthur H. Cain, "Alcoholics Can Be Cured--Despite A.A."

Saturday Evening Post, September 19, 1964

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1012


0 -1 0 0
7244 James Bliss
Re: Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors Magazine article: critics can be our benefactors 3/11/2011 8:37:00 PM


From James Bliss and Mike (heat_cool2004)



- - - -



From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>

(james.bliss at comcast.net)



The Harper's magazine article by Arthur H. Cain could come across as

self-serving for the author. In the same manner he is addressing the various

things which he 'pinpointed' in AA and Alanon.



But, reading the article, I can see some truth in the statements. AA members and

meetings are far from perfect, and should never claim to be. The Big Book flatly

states 'our hats are off' to the man who can make an about-face on his drinking

through another method. It also states that we are to take advantage (use them

for what they do best) of various resources (Physicians, Psychologists,

Religious people). Also, we are not Doctors (as a whole although some members

are). Etc.



The article just points out the bad, and indicated a bad direction which might

have been being taken back then and I have witnessed in the present as well in

various meetings and members.



It is an interesting read though.



Jim



- - - -



From: "Mike" <heat_cool2004@yahoo.com>

(heat_cool2004 at yahoo.com)



Ron, I've found lots of yahoo groups devoted to blasting away at AA. I read a

lot of the posts, it helps me focus on what mental quirks might nudge people

back out. Lots of people in my area simply assume that someone who goes back

out does it because 'it's what alkies do", or they just quit attending meetings.

I've found that relapsers usually have some reason (real or fancied). ~Mike


0 -1 0 0
7245 Tom Hickcox
Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. 3/16/2011 5:08:00 PM


I have read, I think on our list, that Wilson considered the terms illness,

disease, malady, ailment synonymous. However, the quote indicates otherwise.

From msg. 5695:



The answer William Griffith Wilson gave when specifically asked about alcoholism

as disease after he had addressed the annual meeting of the National Catholic

Clergy Conference of Alcoholism in 1961: "We have never called alcoholism a

disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example,

there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart

ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism.

Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by

pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an

illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use."



End of quote.



I like his example of heart disease. We hear our reaction to alcohol as an

allergy, but no medical scientist would call it that as it doesn't meet the

medical definition of an allergy.


0 -1 0 0
7246 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. Is alcoholism a disease? Bill W. 3/18/2011 4:56:00 PM


Tommy,



You raise some good, provocative questions.



Just to give you my own reaction, I think that perhaps the fairest way to

describe the discussions about whether alcoholism was a disease or an illness or

whatever, might be to say that it was an "evolving concept" during AA's early

years.



And in 1960 to 61, the period you are looking at in your message, there were

indeed some changes going on, as you noted.



Dr. E. M. Jellinek for example only began supporting the use of the word

"disease" fairly late -- he did not publish "The Disease Concept of Alcoholism"

(New Haven: Hillhouse Press, 1960) for example, until a year before Bill W's

comment which you quote. Bill Swegan told me -- if I remember correctly -- that

Jellinek did not at all like the word "disease" however back in 1949, when he

studied with Jellinek at the Yale School of Alcohol Studies.



The word "disease" appears only three times in the A.A. Big Book. It was used,

but it clearly wasn't the word they most preferred at that point in time (1939).

It is mentioned first on page 64 in discussing alcoholism, then again at the

beginning of the second part of the book in the story of Bill Dotson, the Akron

lawyer who was Alcoholics Anonymous Number Three. When Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob

visited Dotson in the hospital, they told him he had "a disease," and when he

explained his conversion to his wife, he told her he felt that God had cured him

"of this terrible disease." (AAWS, 1976: 187-188, 191)



THE OTHER TERMS USED IN THE BIG BOOK:



However, in spite of its avoidance of the specific word "disease," alcoholism is

referred to over and over again throughout the book as a "sickness," a "malady,"

and an "ailment," and alcoholics are characterized as persons who are "sick" or

"ill." In the Personal Stories section of the third edition of the Big Book,

one of the subtitles is "How Forty-Three Alcoholics Recovered From Their

Malady."



Sick, sick person, or sickness on pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101, 106, 107,

108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164.



Ill or illness on pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122, 139,

140, and 142.



The words ail or ailment are used on pages 135, 139, 140.



Malady appears on pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165.



ALLERGY:



Although it is true that alcoholism is not an allergy in the modern

understanding of allergic reactions (it does not produce a histamine response

for example), there was one extremely important insight contained in that early

speculation, that is usually totally ignored by the modern AA bashers who want

to argue that alcoholics should be able to go back to "controlled drinking," or

who sometimes even argue that they have "proven" that it can be done even by

full-fledged chronic alcoholics.



Once a person is allergic to bee stings, for example -- where their throats

close up so they cannot breathe and they experience other life-threatening

reactions of anaphylactic shock -- this cannot be "cured" so that the person can

go back to being stung by bees. The body's reaction to bee stings permanently

and irremediably changes, so that each subsequent bee sting produces an even

worse reaction.



It is the same thing with poison ivy allergic reactions and allergic reactions

to strawberries, onions, wheat, or what have you -- you cannot ever go back to

touching or eating those things and become "a normal social strawberry eater" or

whatever you want to call it.



Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense, anybody who has

seriously looked at modern scientific studies of the physiology of alcoholism

will find that in similar fashion, when the human body is exposed to enough

alcohol over a long enough period of time (for genetic reasons, with many Native

Americans, this happens frighteningly quickly, in just a few weeks of regular

drinking), the body progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that

is, the way it physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is

irreversible.



Until the very end of the progression, the person will find that it takes more

and more alcohol to produce the same inner psychological feeling of ease and

calm and euphoria. Once the progression has gone so far that it takes an

alcoholic large quantities to produce that feeling, past that point, taking one

or two drinks of alcohol would have little appreciable effect at all, in terms

of giving the person a satisfying "buzz."



What I find shameful about the AA bashers who claim that alcoholics can

successfully go back to "controlled drinking" -- who accuse AA of being a "cult"

suitable only for the naive and scientifically ignorant -- is that although they

boastfully proclaim themselves as the defenders of "real scientific thinking,"

they have never even bothered to read what real science has actually shown about

the physiological reactions and metabolic processes involving alcohol ingestion

in the human body. In other words, AA bashers of this sort are total frauds.



To put it in language they can understand, you can turn a cucumber into a

pickle, but not vice versa. Likewise a psychiatrist or psychologist -- and this

includes even people like Dr. Arthur H. Cain of Harper's Magazine fame -- cannot

in fact take a chronic alcoholic's pickled body and turn it back into a body

which has a "virgin" reaction to alcohol ingestion.



So although referring to alcoholism as an "allergy" in the Big Book was at one

level an unfortunate choice of words, because that is certainly not in line with

modern scientific understanding of either allergic reactions or of alcoholism,

it nevertheless contained an important kernel of truth: once alcoholism has

developed, you cannot physiologically become "un-alcoholic" any more than you

can become "un-allergic" to poison ivy (or what have you).



Glenn



___________________________________________



Original message from Tommy Hickcox:



I have read, I think on our list, that Wilson considered the terms illness,

disease, malady, ailment synonymous. However, the quote indicates otherwise.

From msg. 5695:



The answer William Griffith Wilson gave when specifically asked about alcoholism

as disease after he had addressed the annual meeting of the National Catholic

Clergy Conference of Alcoholism in 1961: "We have never called alcoholism a

disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example,

there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart

ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism.

Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by

pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an

illness, or a malady -- a far safer term for us to use."



End of quote.



I like his example of heart disease. We hear our reaction to alcohol as an

allergy, but no medical scientist would call it that as it doesn't meet the

medical definition of an allergy.


0 -1 0 0
7247 Al Welch
RE: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line 3/14/2011 9:46:00 PM


From Al Welch and Laurie Andrews:



- - - -



From "Al Welch" <welch@a-1associates.com>

(welch at a-1associates.com)



Wow! What treasure!



- - - -



From: Jenny or Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



There is valuable archival material relating to AA in the UK at Stepping Stones.

When I was visiting in 1990,en route to the Seattle convention,I read Lois's

diary of her and Bill's trip to Europe in (I think) 1950 in which she recorded

their time in the UK.



-----Original Message-----

From: John Moore <johnmoore@gmail.com>

(johnmoore at gmail.com)

Subject: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line



A project is underway to microfilm the Stepping Stones archival material,

digitize it, and eventually make it available to researchers on line.


0 -1 0 0
7248 OedipusTax
Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year 3/18/2011 9:42:00 PM


Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article

does not say March 21 but March 3:



Anne Ripley Smith

March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949

The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A.

Wife of Dr. Bob

"The Mother of A.A."



A Tribute to Anne Smith

A.A. Grapevine, June 1950



SOMEHOW we believe Dr. Bob's beloved Anne would prefer this simple tribute

beyond all others. It was written by one who knew her well. It came from the

bottom of a grateful heart which sensed that extravagant language and trumpeting

phrases would serve only to obscure a life that had deep meaning.



It is doubtful if now, only one year after her passing, that the true

significance of Anne Smith's life can be realized. Certainly it cannot yet be

written, for the warmth of her love, and charm of her personality and the

strength of her humility are still upon those of us who knew her.



For Anne Smith was far more than a gracious lady. She was one of four people,

chosen by a Higher Destiny, to perform a service to mankind. How great this

contribution is, only time and an intelligence beyond man's can determine. With

Dr. Bob, Lois and Bill, Anne Smith stepped into history, not as a heroine but as

one willing to accept God's will and ready to do what needed to be done.



Her kitchen was the battleground and, while Anne poured the black coffee, a

battle was fought there which has led to your salvation and mine. It was she,

perhaps, who first understood the miracle of what passed between Bill and Dr.

Bob. And, in the years to follow, it was she who knew with divine certainty that

what had happened in her home would happen in other homes again, again, and yet

again.



For Anne understood the simplicity of faith. Perhaps that's why God chose her

for us. Perhaps that's why Anne never once thought of herself as a 'woman of

destiny' but went quietly about her job. Perhaps that's why, when she said to a

grief-torn wife, "Come in, my dear, you're with friends now -- friends who

understand" that fear and loneliness vanished. Perhaps that's why Anne always

sat in the rear of the meetings, so she could see the newcomers as they came,

timid and doubtful. . .and make them welcome.



There's a plaque on the wall of Akron's St. Thomas hospital dedicated to Anne.

It's a fine memorial. But there's a finer one lying alongside the typewriter as

this is being written -- letters to Dr. Bob from men and women who knew and

loved her well. Each tries to put in words what is felt in many hearts. They

fail -- and that's the tribute beyond price. For real love, divine love, escapes

even the poet's pen.



So, in the simplest way we know, and speaking for every AA everywhere, let's

just say 'Thanks, Dr. Bob, for sharing her with us.' We know that she's in a

Higher Group now, sitting well to the back, with an eye out for newcomers,

greeting the strangers and listening for their names!



End of Grapevine article ...............

_________________________________________________



Original message #1145 from "planternva"

<jscarpine@juno.com AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com ,

Jim Blair <jblair@v...> wrote:



> Arthur wrote

>

> Can anyone confirm or correct with a citation to a written

reference source?

>

> The June 1950 issue of the GV had an article on Anne Smith and it

notes her birth date as March 21, 1881.

>

> Jim


0 -1 0 0
7249 J. Lobdell
RE: Emmet Fox''s secretary Emmet Fox''s secretary 3/18/2011 10:34:00 PM


Harold A. (Al) S-------, who wrote both the Responsibility Pledge (1965) and the

Declaration of Unity (1970). He was also the author of a book on Bert D: Hard

Hat, Inebriate, Scholar (Harbor House, Memphis TN, 1975). He moved from NY to FL

in the 1970s and died there.



> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> From: lanhamcook@yahoo.co.uk

>

> In wikipedia it states that:

>

> "Fox's secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics

Anonymous co-founder Bill W., and partly as a result of this connection early AA

groups often went to hear Fox. His writing, especially "The Sermon on the

Mount," became popular in AA."

>

> I was curious to know if anyone knows man was who worked with Alcoholics

Anonymous?

>

> JLC


0 -1 0 0
7250 ron.fulkerson@comcast.net
Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy 3/19/2011 7:44:00 AM


Tommy,



She told her story in the Saturday Evening Post magazine 10/18/1952.



ronf


0 -1 0 0
7251 Bent Christensen
Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/16/2011 3:45:00 PM


Dear Friends

 

We have an interesting situation here Denmark. In shot some AA groups have

applied for and recieved money at the municipality in order to pay rent by

literature and so on.



This was in the local newspaper and thus our GSO heard about it and went to the

groups in order to guide them.

 

GSO recommended that the groups should make an association/club which could

apply for contributions and then the groups could continue as always.

 

Some of us think this is simply a workaround or traditions and told GSO so.

GSO replies that there is a speciel Danish tradition not to pay rent. Thus we

can not use the guidelines regarding AA Clubs.

I am not sure if the statement regarding rent means in AA or in generel.

 

Now my questions to you good people are:

1. Is it common practice that voluntary organizations do not pay rent where you

live?

2. Do your AA group pay rent?

3. Do you have any experience to share regarding this matter?

 

Bent Christensen

Valmuevej 17

6000 Kolding

Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43

www.synlighjemmeside.dk


0 -1 0 0
7252 ricktompkins
Re: God as we understood Him: agnostics God as we understood Him: agnostics 3/16/2011 10:03:00 PM


This is a clarification to the sharing of what's in intuited (Amelia)'s post

about the General Service Conference agenda and her final question. The

Conference Literature Committee is planning its discussion toward recommending

approval or disapproval on two agenda items:



Item B: Review progress report from the trustee's Literature Committee on the

development of literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories

from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous.



Item G: Consider a request to reconsider the 2010 Conference Advisory Action

that "the trustees Literature Committee develop literature which focuses on

spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are

successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous."



On one hand, the trustees' Literature Committee is giving a progress report on

the feasibility (want vs. need vs. cost) and format (length, type of publishing)

of new literature that would most likely be a pamphlet. That's what the 2010

Conference instructed them to develop: the possibilities.



On the other hand, item G's reconsideration request is to either recommend

Conference approval or disapproval on the "non-religious" spirituality

pamphlet which was approved to proceed last year.



The deluge of input on item G suggests a lot of constructive ideas have been

submitted for the project since last year, on both the pro and con for AAWS to

undertake such a new work of literature. In the end, only the Conference

Committee on Literature will make the recommendation to the Conference whether

to stop or proceed.



If the proposed pamphlet proceeds, the 2011 two newly Appointed Committee

Members on the Literature Committee will certainly be doing a lot of reading,

reviewing submitted work.



The AA Grapevine, Inc. has previously published four soft cover books on

spirituality without the heavy input of religious faith: two versions of "Came

To Believe, " another on "Spirituality" and another called "AA Around the

World." The question is, should AAWS, Inc. publish one, too? Give it time, and

the AA Grapevine will publish another one on AA spirituality.



In my home turf, the current issue of the Chicago Area's "Here's How" has six

articles on spirituality and only one of the articles mentions God. And in my

group and other meetings, I can understand many who are continually developing

their understanding of God, those holding an unshakable belief in the God of the

Bible, those who refuse to consider any belief because of past experience, and

those who have never been effectively exposed to God-consciousness. Call it the

whole gamut of faiths: those who say they know and those still finding out.

Anyone can get sober with or without a religious faith.



Intuited wrote: I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these

terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?"



My answer is "yes."



It could be one of AA's greatest strengths about "God as we understood Him" to

appreciate any member's generic, poorly defined 'Creator' to be called "God"

because even that slight belief keeps that member's recovery in focus. Bill W.

wrestled with the "God" concept when he first got sober, too.



I'm not uneasy when I speak of God with the name "God" when I personally have my

own belief and don't feel the need to explain it. One-on-one, it's all right for

me to explain when asked, but otherwise in general group sharing it's always

come across as a distraction.



I've been to many Pentecostal services, seminars, and plenty of AA Open Speaker

meetings, and while I love them both their intent and the destinations are very

different!



Still sober,

Rick, Illinois


0 -1 0 0
7253 kimrowe24
Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/17/2011 7:47:00 PM


I did a careful statistical study of my home group, employing the same criteria

used in the Big Book and in early AA practice, and verified the old 50% / 25%

success rate. AA still works that way today.



I decided to do work out the statistics on my home group's success rate, after I

recently read an article bashing AA's printed recovery rate, stating that AA was

lucky to achieve 2% on a good day, and even less during the holiday season.

After reading the article, I realized that there were three important things

that had to be asked:

(1) how did they define success,

(2) who made up their test group, and

(3) what was the criteria for being in the test group.



This is what the Big Book states: "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really

tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some

relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed

improvement."



At the time the book was written, 4 years 4 months was the maximum sobriety of

AA's test group, but many had only been sober for a few months. The Big Book

defined success as continuously sober for anywhere from a few months to over

four years.



AA's test group was made up of all volunteers. See AA Number Three's story, pg

186, where Bill and Bob ask Bill D the four questions: "Do you want to quit

drinking?" "Can you quit of your own accord?" "Do you believe in a Higher

Power?" and "Are you willing to go to this Higher Power and ask for help, calmly

and without any reservations?" It was harder to get into AA back then than it

is now, no one could just walk in and sit in their meetings. There were no

court referrals, no treatment center tourist, and no marriage saving members in

this group.



AA's test group was further restricted to those who "came to A.A. and really

tried." What did Bill W mean when he said "really tried"? The answer is in

chapter 5, How It Works. It defines "really tried" as thoroughly following the

path, completely giving themselves to this simple program, being rigorously

honest, going to any lengths, taking certain steps, being fearless and thorough

from the very start, letting go of our old ideas absolutely, finding a Higher

Power, and taking the suggestions.



I went to my home group. I explained to them that I wanted to conduct an

informal survey. They agreed. Then I explained that I only wanted to conduct

the survey with those who volunteered to come to AA for help. Next I explained

that the survey would be limited to those who really tried (see above). The

results of my survey is that 50% of that group got sober at once and remained

that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who

stayed on with A.A. showed improvement.



Now what about all those other people, the non-volunteers, or the half measure

group? Well the Big Book talks about them too, "Other thousands came to a few

A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great

numbers of these, about two out of three, began to return as time passed."



Years later, and our home group has the exact same success rate as our founders

if we apply the same test criteria as our founders.


0 -1 0 0
7254 wgwalker3
Re: Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line Stepping Stones archives microfilmed digitized, put on line 3/18/2011 7:00:00 PM


Hi Group!

After the initial mention of this project earlier in the week, I emailed

Stepping Stones and asked how to "earmark" contributions toward this project. I

was advised that ALL contributions submitted via the website for Stepping Stones

will go toward this project. They indicated they are very grateful that any of

us might announce this project at our meetings, groups, district and area

meetings. Thanks to all of you for your participation here!



Yours in Fellowship,

Bill Walker


0 -1 0 0
7255 Glen Morehead
Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? 3/19/2011 12:33:00 AM


Glenn,



I would appreciate some clarification, particularly literature references

supporting your [condensed] statement below:



Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense....when the human

body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time....the body

progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it

physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible.



I am not clear whether you are speaking metaphorically and psychologically, or

biochemically. Big difference. Please clarify and aim me to a further

understanding of exactly what you DO mean to say, and what the literature says.

There is no dispute on my part that there is an irreversible change, and that we

do in fact "cross a line," only the info you are citing to support this.



Best rgds,



Glen M

5-11-03


0 -1 0 0
7256 Glenn Chesnut
Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? Is alcoholism a disease? Metaphorically or biochemically? 3/23/2011 5:10:00 PM


In response to the message from Glen Morehead

<glenm7@yahoo.com> (glenm7 at yahoo.com)



????



I said in my message that I was talking about the way the body "metabolizes

alcohol" and "the way it physiologically responds to alcohol." That certainly

doesn't mean "metaphorically" or "psychologically," in anybody's language.



I did my B.S. degree and half of a Ph.D. (at Iowa State University) in

chemistry, and my first published journal article was one in Radiation Chemistry

investigating certain aspects of what happens to the aldehyde linkage in

proteins when the human body suffers an overdose of radiation. So I do know what

acetaldehyde and acetic acid and all these things are.



(To sum up the findings of the research group to which I belonged, the radiation

knocks off free radicals -- fragments of the protein chain, plus free radicals

from other molecules present in the cells, such as water, sodium chloride,

potassium chloride, and so on -- which then reattach to the wrong parts of the

protein chain, or to one another, or to other chemicals present, to form

poisonous or non-functional chemical molecules, including such things as

chloroform and hydrochloric acid. One proposed treatment for people who have

been overexposed to radiation was therefore to give them substances that would

preferentially absorb those free radicals.)



So if you prefer the word "biochemically," I understand the difference between a

literary metaphor and a chemical reaction, and we'll use the word biochemical

instead. The volume of literature on this is so voluminous, I cannot even begin

to start listing all the journal articles you would have to read, but if you

start with the following references, you can track them down for yourself. See

for example,



>> Alcohol also is metabolized in the liver by the enzyme cytochrome P450IIE1

(CYP2E1), which may be increased after chronic drinking. Lieber, C.S. Metabolic

consequences of ethanol. The Endocrinologist 4(2):127-139, 1994.



>> Long-term alcohol abuse produces physiological changes in the brain such as

tolerance and physical dependence. Such brain chemistry changes maintain the

alcoholic's compulsive inability to stop drinking and result in alcohol

withdrawal syndrome upon discontinuation of alcohol consumption. Hoffman, PL.;

Tabakoff, B. (Jul 1996). "Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms."

Alcohol 31 (4): 333-40. For an abstract of this article (published back in 1996,

a long time ago) see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8879279



The biochemistry is backed up by other types of studies:



>> For example, does "moderation management" work? Almost no alcoholic who tries

this can continue to drink moderately for more than ten years without either (a)

relapsing back into uncontrolled drinking or (c) stopping all drinking

absolutely. See the study by George Vaillant at Harvard Medical School:



>> "A long-term (60 year) follow-up of two groups of alcoholic men concluded

that 'return to controlled drinking rarely persisted for much more than a decade

without relapse or evolution into abstinence.' Vaillant also noted that

'return-to-controlled drinking, as reported in short-term studies, is often a

mirage.'" Vaillant, GE (2003). "A 60-year follow-up of alcoholic men". Addiction

(Abingdon, England) 98 (8): 1043-51.



____________________________________________



AT SLIGHTLY GREATER LENGTH, SEE:



Alcohol Metabolism

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa35.htm



An informational bulletin from the NIAAA (National Institute of Alcohol Abuse

and Alcoholism)



(This government agency, which is part of the U.S. government's National

Institutes of Health, was originally put into its present form as part of the

process of passing the Hughes Act. Nancy Olson, the founder of the

AAHistoryLovers, was the principal senatorial aide in charge of the passage and

implementation of the Hughes Act.)



Metabolism is the body's process of converting ingested substances to other

compounds. Metabolism results in some substances becoming more, and some less,

toxic than those originally ingested. Metabolism involves a number of processes,

one of which is referred to as oxidation.



Through oxidation, alcohol is detoxified and removed from the blood, preventing

the alcohol from accumulating and destroying cells and organs. A minute amount

of alcohol escapes metabolism and is excreted unchanged in the breath and in

urine. Until all the alcohol consumed has been metabolized, it is distributed

throughout the body, affecting the brain and other tissues.



When alcohol is consumed, it passes from the stomach and intestines into the

blood, a process referred to as absorption. Alcohol is then metabolized by

enzymes, which are body chemicals that break down other chemicals. In the liver,

an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) mediates the conversion of alcohol

to acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde is rapidly converted to acetate by other enzymes

and is eventually metabolized to carbon dioxide and water. Alcohol also is

metabolized in the liver by the enzyme cytochrome P450IIE1 (CYP2E1), which may

be increased after chronic drinking.* Most of the alcohol consumed is

metabolized in the liver, but the small quantity that remains unmetabolized

permits alcohol concentration to be measured in breath and urine.



*Lieber, C.S. Metabolic consequences of ethanol. The Endocrinologist

4(2):127-139, 1994.



Alcohol Metabolism--A Commentary by NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis, M.D.



With respect to its broader scientific application, metabolism, which has long

been studied, is emerging with new implications for the study of alcoholism and

its medical consequences. For instance, how is metabolism related to the

resistance of some individuals to alcoholism? We know that some inherited

abnormalities in metabolism (e.g., flushing reaction among some persons of Asian

descent) promote resistance to alcoholism. Recent data from two large-scale

NIAAA-supported genetics studies suggest that alcohol dehydrogenase genes may be

associated with differential resistance and vulnerability to alcohol. These

findings are important to the study of why some people develop alcoholism and

others do not. Studies of metabolism also can identify alternate paths of

alcohol metabolism, which may help explain how alcohol speeds up the elimination

of some substances (e.g., barbiturates) and increases the toxicity of others

(e.g., acetaminophen). This information will help health care providers in

advising patients on alcohol-drug interactions that may decrease the

effectiveness of some therapeutic medications or render others harmful.



FOR MORE DETAILS SEE this NIAAA publication:



http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa72/aa72.htm



- - - -



Alcoholism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism



Long-term alcohol abuse produces physiological changes in the brain such as

tolerance and physical dependence. Such brain chemistry changes maintain the

alcoholic's compulsive inability to stop drinking and result in alcohol

withdrawal syndrome upon discontinuation of alcohol consumption.**



Alcohol's primary effect is the increase in stimulation of the GABAA receptor,

promoting central nervous system depression. With repeated heavy consumption of

alcohol, these receptors are desensitized and reduced in number, resulting in

tolerance and physical dependence. When alcohol consumption is stopped too

abruptly, the person's nervous system suffers from uncontrolled synapse firing.



Genetic differences exist between different racial groups which affect the risk

of developing alcohol dependence. For example, there are differences between

African, East Asian and Indo-racial groups in how they metabolize alcohol. These

genetic factors are believed to, in part, explain the differing rates of alcohol

dependence among racial groups.



**Hoffman, PL.; Tabakoff, B. (Jul 1996). "Alcohol dependence: a commentary on

mechanisms.". Alcohol Alcohol 31 (4): 333-40. For an abstract of this article

(published back in 1996, a long time ago) see:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8879279 1996 Jul;31(4):333-40.

Alcohol dependence: a commentary on mechanisms. Hoffman PL, Tabakoff B.

Department of Pharmacology, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center,

Denver 80262, USA.

Abstract: The alcohol dependence syndrome includes the presence of alcohol

tolerance, physical dependence and an inability to control one's alcohol intake.

Studies are reviewed that implicate the mesolimbic dopaminergic systems, and the

gamma-aminobutyric acid-A (GABAA) and N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors as

mediators of various aspects of the alcohol dependence syndrome. It is suggested

that alcohol-induced changes in the GABAA receptor may play a role in certain

aspects of tolerance to alcohol and in altered abilities of an individual to

terminate alcohol intake. Chronic alcohol-induced increases in the activity of

NMDA receptors may contribute to the withdrawal signs that are the defining

feature of physical dependence on alcohol. It is hypothesized that decreased

mesolimbic dopaminergic function, which occurs during alcohol withdrawal, may be

involved in the compulsion to initiate and maintain alcohol drinking, another

aspect of the alcohol dependence syndrome. Furthermore, evidence is presented

that this decreased dopaminergic function could occur secondarily to the

increase in NMDA receptor function, such that the alcohol-induced increase in

NMDA receptor function could underlie both the overt withdrawal signs and the

compulsion to drink alcohol in the alcohol-dependent individual.



Does "moderation management" work? Almost no alcoholic who tries this can

continue to drink moderately for more than ten years without either (a)

relapsing back into uncontrolled drinking or (c) stopping all drinking

absolutely. See the study by George Vaillant at Harvard Medical School:



"A long-term (60 year) follow-up of two groups of alcoholic men concluded that

'return to controlled drinking rarely persisted for much more than a decade

without relapse or evolution into abstinence.' Vaillant also noted that

'return-to-controlled drinking, as reported in short-term studies, is often a

mirage.'"***



***Vaillant, GE (2003). "A 60-year follow-up of alcoholic men". Addiction

(Abingdon, England) 98 (8): 1043-51.





- - - -



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_metabolism



Acetyl coenzyme A or acetyl-CoA is an important molecule in metabolism, used in

many biochemical reactions. Its main function is to convey the carbon atoms

within the acetyl group to the citric acid cycle to be oxidized for energy

production.



The reaction from ethanol to carbon dioxide and water is a complex one that

proceeds in three steps. Complete Reaction:

C2H6O(Ethanol)?C2H4O(Acetaldehyde)?C2H4O2(acetic Acid) ?Acetyl-CoA?3H2O+2CO2.



Ethanol is oxidized to acetaldehyde via the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase IB

(class I), beta polypeptide (ADH1B). The gene coding for this enzyme is 1.1.1.1

on chromosome 4, locus 4q21-q23.



Acetaldehyde is a highly unstable compound and quickly forms free radical

structures which are highly toxic if not quenched by antioxidants such as

ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and Vitamin B1 (thiamine). These free radicals can

result in damage to embryonic neural crest cells and can lead to severe birth

defects. Prolonged exposure of the kidney and liver to these compounds in

chronic alcoholics can lead to severe damage. The literature also suggests that

these toxins may have a hand in causing some of the ill effects associated with

hang-overs.



Acetaldehyde to acetic acid: Aldehyde dehydrogenase is the second enzyme of the

major oxidative pathway of alcohol metabolism. Two major liver isoforms of this

enzyme, cytosolic and mitochondrial, can be distinguished by their

electrophoretic mobilities, kinetic properties, and subcellular localizations.

Most Caucasians have two major isozymes, while approximately 50% of Asians have

only the cytosolic isozyme, missing the mitochondrial isozyme. A remarkably

higher frequency of acute alcohol intoxication among Asians than among

Caucasians could be related to the absence of the mitochondrial isozyme.

___________________________________



Original message from Glen Morehead <glenm7@yahoo.com>(glenm7 at yahoo.com)



Glenn,



I would appreciate some clarification, particularly literature references

supporting your [condensed] statement below:



Although alcoholism is not an allergic reaction in that sense....when the human

body is exposed to enough alcohol over a long enough period of time....the body

progressively changes the way it metabolizes alcohol -- that is, the way it

physiologically responds to alcohol -- and that this change is irreversible.



I am not clear whether you are speaking metaphorically and psychologically, or

biochemically. Big difference. Please clarify and aim me to a further

understanding of exactly what you DO mean to say, and what the literature says.



There is no dispute on my part that there is an irreversible change, and that we

do in fact "cross a line," only the info you are citing to support this.


0 -1 0 0
7257 MarionORedstone@aol.com
Re: alcoholism as disease, biochemistry, diabetes, hypothyroidism alcoholism as disease, biochemistry, diabetes, hypothyroidism 3/19/2011 12:33:00 AM


Dear Glenn and all,



DR. BOB'S OPINION:



I am sure Ernie Kurtz would recall his notation: From E. Kurtz, PhD, Monograph

Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism (2000)



In 1938, while preparing the manuscript of the A.A. Big Book, Bill Wilson asked

Dr. Bob Smith (a proctologist) about the accuracy of referring to alcoholism as

a disease or one of its synonyms. Bob's reply, scribbled in a large hand on a

small sheet of his letterhead, read: "Have to use disease -- sick -- only way to

get across hopelessness," the final word doubly underlined and written in even

larger letters (Smith [Akron] to Wilson)



So the physician in the founding of A.A. suggested the disease concept.



AA PAMPHLET 44 QUESTIONS:



More recently the A.A. pamphlet 44 Questions states in answer to the question

what is alcoholism? "There are many different ideas about what alcoholism really

is. The explanation that seems to make sense to most A.A. members is that

alcoholism is an illness, a progressive illness,which can never be cured but

which, like some other illnesses, can be arrested. Going one step further, many

A.A.s feel that the illness represents the combination of a physical sensitivity

to alcohol and a mental obsession with drinking, which, regardless of

consequences, cannot be broken by will power alone [italics in the original]."



THE WORD "RELAPSE" NOT USED:



It is useful for me to remember that despite the disease concept being actively

under discussion during the formative times of A.A., the term "relapse" was not

used. When the first two chairmen of the Alcohol Foundation were unseated

because of inebriation, they were said to have "returned to drinking." This is

the term I prefer because it expresses the idea that our steady state is to be

unsteady.



ACETALDEHYDE AND THE ADDICTIVE PAIN KILLER THIQ:



It is well established from modern studies that abnormal physiological responses

in alcoholics create elevated levels of acetaldehyde in their blood stream and

the production of the addictive pain killer THIQ (tetrahydroisoquinoline) in

their brain cells. Thus the illness is expressed at a cellular level, so no

amount of will power can affect that.



DIABETES AND HYPOTHYROIDISM AS PARALLELS:



To that extent, it is much like other cellular level maladies, like diabetes

mellitus and hypothyroidism.



The good news of course is that a spiritual awakening can and does allow the

owner of the alcoholic's abnormal physiology to live comfortably in their skin

without drinking alcohol.



God is near,

Marion


0 -1 0 0
7258 George
Text of the red-headed nurse in the alcoholic ward Text of the red-headed nurse in the alcoholic ward 3/19/2011 2:38:00 PM


Here is her story:



http://silkworth.net/magazine_newspaper/saturday_evening_post_oct_18_1952.html


0 -1 0 0
7259 Jeff Bruce
Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/23/2011 4:33:00 PM


You did something I have been thinking about for quite a while. Good for you!



"Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't

want the program. But great numbers of these, about two out of three, began to

return as time passed."



What page is that on?



Thanks.


0 -1 0 0
7260 Charles Knapp
Re: Changes in the chapter To Wives Changes in the chapter To Wives 3/19/2011 6:04:00 PM


From Charles Knapp, gadgetsdad, and Old Bill (schaberg)



- - - -



From: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com> (cpknapp at yahoo.com)



Hey Group,



With help from Doug B. and Shakey Mike I was able to answer the question about

the changes in the Chapter To The Wives. From our research we found the

following:



Original Manuscript:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain

state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they

would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had

no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"



1st Edition 1st printing page 127:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain

state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they

would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had

no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"



1st Edition; 2nd thru 16th printing page 127:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have

been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two

hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse

whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!"



2nd , 3rd and 4th Editions page 114:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been

working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first

published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals

of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!"



===========================================

SUMMARY:



>> The Manuscript per April 1939 had six chronic alcoholics released



>> The 1st Edition 1st Printing April 1939 had four chronic alcoholics released



>> The 1st Edition 2nd through the 16th printings 1941 -1954 had some additional

wording and 17 alcoholics released (note they are no longer "chronic")



>> Starting with the Second Edition in 1955 we have the wording we have today.

===========================================



Thanks for the help!



Charles from Wisconsin



- - - -



From: gadgetsdad <gadgetsdad@yahoo.com> (gadgetsdad at yahoo.com)



The second through 16th printings all use the figure 17. I happened to read this

paragraph at a meeting a few years ago and realized the First edition could not

have used thousands. So I went through all 16 printings.



Brad I. Area 25 Northern Minnesota Archivist



- - - -



From: schaberg@aol.com (schaberg at aol.com)



The second through the seventh printings all read exactly like the eighth

printing that you have quoted:



1st Edition: 2nd thru 7th printing, page 127:



"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have

been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two

hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse

whatever -- none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes

deep!"



Old Bill



________________________________



Original message from: Charles Knapp <cpknapp@yahoo.com>

Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011

Subject: Changes in the chapter To Wives



Hello Group,



I was asked a question I could not fully answer and was hoping someone could

help me finish my answer. It seems there were some changes in the wording in

part of a paragraph in Chapter 8 "To The Wives." I am looking for anyone who

might have access to all 16 printings the 1st edition Big Book. In particular I

am looking for the wording in printings 2 thru 7. I have the different wording

from the manuscript, 1st printing and printings 8 thru 16. So all I need is the

changes in printings 2 thru 7.





Here is what I have so far:



Original Manuscript:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain

state institution released six chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they

would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had

no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"



1st Edition 1st printing page 127:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. About a year ago a certain

state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected they

would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them has returned. The others had

no relapse at all.The power of God goes deep!"



1st Edition; 8th thru 13th printing page 127:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For several years we have

been working with alcoholics committed to institutions. During 1939 two

hospitals in New Jersey released 17 alcoholics. Eleven have had no relapse

whatever-none of them have returned to the asylum. The power of God goes deep!"



2nd, 3rd and 4th Editions page 114:

"We make this recommendation with some confidence. For years we have been

working with alcoholics committed to institutions. Since this book was first

published, A.A. has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals

of every kind. The majority have never returned. The power of God goes deep!"



Any help will be appreciated

Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
7261 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/23/2011 2:20:00 PM


From Laurie A., John M., Bryan Reid, David B., Beverly F., and Gerard M.



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Taking money from an outside municipal body would seem to contradict Tradition

Seven. I've belonged to AA groups who met in premises owned by landlords who

would not accept rent from voluntary clubs etc as part of their service to the

community. The AA groups checked the going rate for rooms in the area and made

equivalent donations to those organisations from time to time (Christmas funds,

gifts of TVs, furniture etc etc).



- - - -



From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com> (contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)



Hi Bent,

An interesting set of questions and I am sure many of us will have

experience to share.



If there is a tradition in Denmark that AA groups do not pay rent, it would be

the first time I have ever heard of the concept. In the 39 years that I have

been attending AA here in the USA, it has always been stressed that we are not a

charity. We are a voluntary organization, yes... but we pay our own way and

accept no outside money. AA will not accept money or gifts from outside the

fellowship, whether from a church, the government, a charity, a benevolent

giver, or any other place. We pay our own way... we are self supporting and

this is a point of great pride. We are not seeking a handout from anyone. We

are responsible for ourselves.



Our GSO in New York routinely refuses and sends back money, sometimes even large

amounts, that comes to AA from a variety of sources outside our fellowship, and

limits how much any one person can give. Arguments and disputes over money and

property can be terribly divisive and AA has chosen a wise path, that of being

broke, beyond our prudent operating reserves.



It gets difficult at times because virtually every group must pay rent. The

price of rent has gone up and we sometimes are hard pressed to keep meetings

open, especially with newer groups. Churches who rent space to us are a

wonderful asset and we cherish the fact that we can rent from them. Other

landlords are good to us too, but we make sure we pay them.



Starting a clubhouse for meeting space is not a good approach. Once open, a

clubhouse must have money to cover expenses, and the AA groups meeting there

will need to pay rent in order for the club to survive. Accepting government

funds to make it possible for AA groups to meet there and not pay rent sounds

like a violation of the spirit of our 12 traditions. It would amount to an

indirect subsidy from the government to AA.



All of this should be a matter for a group conscience to decide. Our AA

Guidelines on clubhouses is pretty helpful, and it stresses that any club must

be separately incorporated and managed by those who have an interest in it. AA

cannot be associated with the club. The AA groups meeting there are merely

tenants, and the clubhouse is the landlord. The tenants are free at any time to

move, go away, as they see fit. Here is the AA guideline about clubhouses:

http://aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/mg-03_clubs.pdf



A typical AA group here in USA will pass the basket during the meeting,

collecting usually a dollar, sometimes two, from the average person. The group

secretary or treasurer keeps track of the money and accounts to the group as to

how it was used. My home group pays rent to the church, buys AA literature,

buys coffee and refreshments, medallions, and other supplies. The excess is

accumulated until we have a "prudent reserve" which in my group is the amount

needed for three months' operating expenses. The excess funds above that, we

give away. We send our excess money to our District, our Area and our GSO

organizations as contributions, usually twice each year. There is a good

pamphlet on the AA web site

http://aa.org/pdf/products/f-3_selfsupport.pdf

about our being self supporting.



I hope this will be useful to you Bent. All that I have written is my own

personal experience, and I do not speak on behalf of AA. I am willing to stand

corrected if anyone finds error in what I have said. I wanted to relate to you

my own personal experience on these interesting questions.



God bless,

John



John M

Burlington, Vermont US

D.O.S. Dec 7, 1971



- - - -



From: Bryan Reid <humblephoenix@gmail.com>

(humblephoenix at gmail.com)



Hi all



I'm in Southeastern Arizona (USA) up in the high desert.



In response to your questions, Bent:



1. Here (and every Group I attended in Pennsylvania and Connecticut before

moving out here) every A.A. Group I know of pays rent. The reasoning behind this

is that the 7th Tradition states: "Every A.A. group ought to be fully

self-supporting, declining outside contributions," and that this includes

declining free rent of a meeting place. I'm sure there are other "voluntary" or

non-profit organisations that do not pay rent but they are not A.A.



2. Yes, my home Group and every other Group in our District pays rent for their

meeting place or room. [I know this because I am the District Secretary.]



3. My home Group (Highway 92 Group in Sierra Vista, Arizona) rents space from a

non-profit organisation called the Serenity Club, which was specifically

organised and built for the purpose of providing a meeting place for A.A.

Groups. We currently have three Groups in total meeting there and all pay rent.

The Groups buy their own literature, anniversary medallions and other A.A.

supplies themselves. The Club provides the meeting place and coffee.



I haven't seen the letter you got from GSO, but out here all Groups are supposed

to be totally self-supporting through the voluntary contributions of its members

and not accept outside contributions of any kind. When we have non-alcoholics

attend our open meetings we do not allow them to contribute when the basket is

passed.



Best regards from Arizona!



Bryan



- - - -



From: David Brown <copperas44@yahoo.com bevflk@aol.com (bevflk at aol.com)



My name is Beverly Foulke and I am AA member of the home group ""Get A

Life" and we pay $25 a meeting which is collected from our "pass the basket" at

the middle of our meeting. I don't know if that helps or not.



Beverly



- - - -



From: Gerard T McMahon <skyfive@bellsouth.net> (skyfive at bellsouth.net)



Our group pays rent each month and since most of our groups in USA use churches

that seems to be the common practice.



Gerard McMahon



_______________________________________



Original message from: bent_christensen5@yahoo.com

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011

Subject: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent?



Dear Friends



We have an interesting situation here Denmark. In shot some AA groups have

applied for and recieved money at the municipality in order to pay rent by

literature and so on.



This was in the local newspaper and thus our GSO heard about it and went to the

groups in order to guide them.



GSO recommended that the groups should make an association/club which could

apply for contributions and then the groups could continue as always.



Some of us think this is simply a workaround or traditions and told GSO so. GSO

replies that there is a speciel Danish tradition not to pay rent. Thus we can

not use the guidelines regarding AA Clubs. I am not sure if the statement

regarding rent means in AA or in generel.



Now my questions to you good people are:

1. Is it common practice that voluntary organizations do not pay rent where you

live?

2. Do your AA group pay rent?

3. Do you have any experience to share regarding this matter?



Bent Christensen

Valmuevej 17

6000 Kolding

Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43

www.synlighjemmeside.dk


0 -1 0 0
7262 Stockholm Fellowship
EURYPAA Announcements EURYPAA Announcements 3/21/2011 11:10:00 AM


Hundreds of people from countries all across Europe AND Australia, Asia, Africa,

the United States and Canada will come together in DUBLIN, Ireland for the 2nd

Annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. ("EURYPAA") Conference!



The EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN planning committee has been working hard since the close

of the first EURYPAA in Stockholm last summer. It is a project of service and

fellowship and the committee could not do it without you being so supportive.

Please continue helping outreach worldwide. Download the new EURYPAA 2011

DUBLIN flyer at their website: http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ and pass it on at

your meetings and to your email or online friends.



Feel the Luck 'o the Irish

WIN A TRIP TO EURYPAA!!!

Pre-registration is available online! Register TODAY for your chance to win a

trip to EURYPAA! Everyone who is pre-registered by 31 March 2011 will be

entered to win a trip to EURYPAA! Prize includes round-trip air travel

(purchased with miles) and shared accommodations. The winner will be drawn on

or after 1 April and notified by email. See details below.



CITYWEST HOTEL: HOME OF EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN

Citywest Hotel is the host hotel for everything at EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN.



Visit: http://www.eurypaa2011.com/ and click "Accommodation" to be connected to

online reservations at the special EURYPAA discounted room rate.



SHARE YOUR RECOVERY

Programming for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN is underway. If you would like to be

considered for speaking on a topic panel or workshop please email:



<info@eurypaa2011.com> (info at eurypaa2011.com)



Please understand that EURYPAA does not pay any travel for any speakers or

participants. We do very much appreciate you carrying the message to the

conference in Dublin.



CALLING ALL PERFORMERS

If you, your band, or someone you know, would like to be considered for the

line-up in this year's EURYPAA live concert, please email:



<info@eurypaa2011.com> (info at eurypaa2011.com)



and give us a link to your music or send a song in the mail. It's all in

service, fun and fellowship for the EURYPAA conference so there will be no

compensation. However, a table will be provided to get information out about

the acts performing.



PROGRAM & SCHEDULE

Full program and schedule details will be posted online shortly before the

conference and available to attendees upon arrival. (See below for

Al-Anon/Alateen announcements.)



Main Speaker Meetings

FRIDAY: Open Meeting (with Al-Anon participation) and Around-the-World Roll

Call

SATURDAY: Main Meeting (with Al-Anon participation) and Selection of the Host

City for EURYPAA 2012!

SUNDAY: Closing Meeting and Sobriety Countdown



Topic Meetings & Panel Presentations/Workshops

Topic Meetings begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by open

sharing. While Topic Meetings are open for anyone to attend, participation is

limited to those who have a desire to stop drinking. Panel Presentations begin

with speakers sharing on the topic followed by questions & answers or comments.

Workshops begin with speakers sharing on the topic followed by an open

conversation, moderated by the Workshop Leader. Participation during panel

presentations and/or workshops is open to all.



A list of topics for meetings and workshops is being put together by the EURYPAA

2011 DUBLIN programming team. If you would like to suggest a topic email:

info@eurypaa2011.com



Event Activities

Live Music ~ Stand-up ~ Disco ~ Yoga ~ Golf Tournament ~ Football Match ~ Horse

Riding ~ Water Sports ~ Ireland Tours ~ and more!



International Meetings

All meetings during EURYPAA are in English but we are proud to have made space

available for meetings held in other languages as well: Svenska (Swedish),

Francais (French), Polskie (Polish), Espanol (Spanish), Norske (Norwegian),(Russian), Suomi (Finnish), Aslenska (Icelandic), Danske

(Danish), Deutsch (German), Lietuvos (Lithuanian) and more. If your group would

like to host a meeting at EURYPAA in your native language email:



<info@eurypaa2011.com> (info at eurypaa2011.com)



Al-Anon & Alateen Participation

In addition to participation at each of the main speaker meetings,

Al-Anon/Alateen will have several meetings during EURYPAA. We will also have a

"Double-Winners" meeting for those in AA who also attend Al-Anon and those in

Al-Anon who have come to believe they also need to attend AA. For more

information on the Al-Anon/Alateen program or to be of service to

Al-Anon/Alateen during EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN email: info@eurypaa2011.com



WIN A TRIP TO EURYPAA DETAILS

Every individual who is pre-registered for EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN by midnight 31

March 2011 will be entered in a drawing to win a trip to EURYPAA. The drawing

will be held by the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN planning committee on or after 1 April

2011. Winner will be notified by email. The prize consists of air travel to

Dublin and shared accommodation at EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN as follows: (Air Travel)

Round-trip economy class airfare purchased on behalf of the winner using up to

60,000 American Airlines miles. All limitations by American Airlines, including

black-out dates, applies. In the event that suitable dates for the winner are

not available, the winner will have the option to use the miles at another time,

provided the cost of travel does not exceed 60,000 miles, to travel for EURYPAA

2012. (Accommodation) Winner understands they will be entitled to shared

accommodation from 12-14 August 2011 at Citywest Hotel, host hotel for EURYPAA

2011 DUBLIN. No alternative accommodation will be offered should the winner not

be able to use the shared accommodation on the specific dates and winner will

forfeit this portion of the prize. Shared accommodation means the winner will

share the room with another person or persons. There is no cash value to this

prize. All aspects of this prize have been donated by members of AA in support

of the EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN conference. We thank them dearly and wish everyone

the Luck 'o the Irish!



The 2nd annual All-Europe Young People in A.A. Conference ("EURYPAA") will be

hosted by Dublin, Ireland, 12-14 August 2011. Visit:

http://www.EURYPAA2011.com/ for details and SPREAD THE WORD!



For more information about EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN email: info@eurypaa2011.com



We look forward to sharing EURYPAA with you! As the big book says, "this is an

experience you must not miss!"



Until then we wish you a very Happy & Sober St. Patrick's Day!



In fellowship,

Jay G.

Niamh E.

EURYPAA Advisory Chair

EURYPAA 2011 DUBLIN Chair


0 -1 0 0
7263 Arthur S
Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year 3/24/2011 9:26:00 AM


MARCH 21, NOT MARCH 3



Although it can't be distributed, the attached is a scan of the June 1950

Grapevine article. It clearly states "March 21, 1881 - June 1, 1949."



Since the article was written a year after Anne's passing, and Dr Bob was still

living, I'd prefer to give credence to it as opposed to the other cited sources.



I'd appreciate seeing a copy of the June 1950 article (not a transcription) that

shows "March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949" as stated below.



Cheers

Arthur



________________________________________



From: OedipusTax

Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011

Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year



Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine

article does not say March 21 but March 3:



Anne Ripley Smith

March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949

The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A.

Wife of Dr. Bob

"The Mother of A.A."



A Tribute to Anne Smith

A.A. Grapevine, June 1950



SOMEHOW we believe Dr. Bob's beloved Anne would prefer this simple tribute

beyond all others. It was written by one who knew her well. It came from the

bottom of a grateful heart which sensed that extravagant language and trumpeting

phrases would serve only to obscure a life that had deep meaning ....


0 -1 0 0
7264 calistogababe
Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook 3/23/2011 11:57:00 PM


There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing

the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3

principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3

p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook.



Does anyone know the name of that book or the author?



Many thanks,

Suzanne T.


0 -1 0 0
7265 Bryan Reid
Re: Is alcoholism a disease? Is alcoholism a disease? 3/23/2011 5:33:00 PM


From Bryan Reid, bsdds, Laurie Andrews, and stalban



- - - -



From: Bryan Reid <humblephoenix@gmail.com>

(humblephoenix at gmail.com)



The head doctor at the treatment center I went to gave a lecture on this as part

of the program. He said it was definitely a physiological (or biochemical)

change. I know that to be true in my case.



- - - -



From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net)



As one who contributed and spoke at the initial conference on alcoholism for the

American Dental Assn in Chicago in 1985, this is a conundrum. I was associated

with a med school as an " adjunctive member" of the dept of psychiatry back then

and Texas Tech was very active in describing this phenomenon of alcoholism as a

disease. They (Tech med school) were awarded 4 or 5 career teachers awards in

the study of alcoholism.



I remember that Stanley Gitlow, MD at one of the IDAA meetings back in the 70's

in NJ, talked about "give the doc the dignity of a disease" and it would go a

long way in sobering him/her up.



And there were statistics back then that Docs who believed it was a disease did

far better in recovery over a five year span. There is the works of Dr. Bissell,

Dr. Robert Morse at Mayo's and many in the field who absolutely presented

Alcholism as a disease.



This was 30 years ago and I don't remember specifics on who where or what the

research was ......... but, there were a good number of physicians who simply

did not and do not think this is a disease, as they learned.



It became a semantic issue. To me, its a mute point....don't take the first

drink.



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



I can be sick or ill without necessarily having a disease. We talk of people

being mentally ill, rather than mentally diseased. (Is schizophrenia a disease?)

Some behavioral psychologists argue that alcoholism is not a medical condition

at all; they say problem drinking is learned behavior and as such can be

unlearned.



So for a layman like Bill to designate alcoholism as a disease would

have immediately mired AA in controversy; maybe that's why - in anticipation of

Tradition Ten - he studiously avoided claiming such expertise.



Kurtz explores disease as metaphor and observes, "The heart of the alcoholic

malady, AA teaches, is spiritual disease ... The spiritual is the key to the AA

program ..." (Not God: a history of Alcoholics Anonymous, p200ff).



If a physician told me I had diabetes and my only hope was a spiritual awakening

I would demand a second opinion.



Has the General Service Conference ever discussed whether or not alcoholism is a

disease?



- - - -



From: <stalban2001@yahoo.com> (stalban2001 at yahoo.com)



Great insights. I'm a right-side of the brain kind-of-guy, so the scientific

evidence and research has never impacted how I regard addiction.



When I first came in it sure felt like a "sickness," but over time I came to

understand it as a "spiritual malaise."



The "allergy" concept was always useful as a splendid metaphor that works

wonders with newcomers.


0 -1 0 0
7266 Charlie Parker
RE: Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/23/2011 5:50:00 PM


Jeff Bruce asked in Message 7259, what page in the Big Book is the following

quote from?



"Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they

didn't want the program. But great numbers of these -- about two out of three --

began to return as time passed."



____________________________________________



That quotation is from the Foreword to the Second Edition, near the end.



In the present (4th edit.) Big Book, it's on page xx.


0 -1 0 0
7267 Michael Dunn
2% AA success rate? what article? what evidence cited? 2% AA success rate? what article? what evidence cited? 3/24/2011 8:04:00 PM


It said in Message 7253 from "kimrowe24" <roweke@msn.com>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7253



<<I recently read an article bashing AA's printed recovery rate, stating that AA

was lucky to achieve 2% on a good day, and even less during the holiday

season.>>



Can you give us a link to the article you mentioned?



MY OWN OBSERVATIONS:



The figures from GSO's surveys are accurate as designed, and as designed they

cannot possibly agree with Bill's original measure of AA success.



When I look at my own group, I feel as you do - measured as Bill did, we have a

similar success rate as back then. One problem with the original has always been

the statement "Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried"- who judges who

"really tried", this is a pretty subjective measure.



In my own group of 45 members, the average continuous sobriety is 19 years.So AA

seems to be working fine in my neck of the woods.



Michael D.

Shediac NB, Canada


0 -1 0 0
7268 Sober186@aol.com
Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/23/2011 4:39:00 PM


Sorry, but I just do not see how one can quantify the recovery rate of AA in any

meaningful way, without general agreement on the definition of the term

"alcoholic." What is an alcoholic? The book, alcoholics Anonymous gives us

little help telling us we can judge ourselves but not others.



In the Chapter The Doctors Opinion a definition is made. The doctor writes that:



I personally know of scores of cases who were of the type with whom other

methods had failed completely. They took a drink and the phenomena of craving at

once became paramount to all other interests.



In the chapter There is a solution there are different definitions:



The tragic truth is that if the man be a true alcoholic ... He has lost

control.



At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic he passes into a state

where the most powerful desire to stop drinking will

not prevent him from getting drunk.



In the Chapter More About Alcoholism, Bill seems to believe there were

different kinds of alcoholics and that they were different from heavy drinkers.



Alcoholics are men and women who have lost control over our

drinking.



... Alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness.



... alcoholics of our kind ...



... real alcoholics...



So, is it possible that people were who were coming to the doors of AA in the

early years could have been different than the kinds coming to the doors of AA

today? I don't know but until we do, we at least need to allow for the

possibility.



similarly, how does one define accepting the program. In the early days,

different groups had very different criteria for membership. In at least some,

the newcomer needed to work all the steps before he was considered a full

fledged member.



And how does one define success. For instance, I have just over 25 years

sobriety in AA. Previously, without attending any AA meetings or reading any AA

material, i went nine years without drinking. What criteria do we use to define

success, and when comparing today and yesterday, what criteria did old timers

use to define success. Some, including Bill W. described himself as

"recovered." Virtually no one does today.



Are any of us successful, or even as successful as we want to be?

Hopefully,with the help of a power greater than myself, I will be more

successful tomorrow than I am today. We'll see about that.



Love and serve,



Jim L in Central Ohio


0 -1 0 0
7269 J. Lobdell
RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/24/2011 8:28:00 AM


I recall (I hope correctly) that the WHO study a few years ago revealed that AA

in at least one country (perhaps it was Sweden -- my copy of the report is not

immediately accessible) was compelled to accept money from the country's

government, which insists on supporting all charitable groups (or perhaps all

non-denominational charitable groups).



There are certainly international variations in AA (anonymity in Mexico, for

example, apparently means something quite different from what it means here),

and AA does what it can in accordance with local laws and local customs.



But this is our side of the street and that is the other side -- right? As I

understand the history and structure of AA, our GSO and our AAWS and Grapevine

boards and our Trustees generally have no particular authority -- which includes

authority to interpret the traditions -- outside of what they have in the United

States and Canada.


0 -1 0 0
7270 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/24/2011 9:17:00 AM


In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to pass an Act

allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen a copy of

the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York. Copies are

available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA GB website for

contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share" magazine (the GB equivalent of

"Grapevine") carried this report:



" 'Share' carried the following letter from Jim H., chairman of the General

Service Board, in the March 1986 issue: Dear Members, Due to the recent

publicity in the national Press regarding legacies, the General Service Board

feel it necessary to issue the following statement: 'It has always been the

policy of the Board to decline legacies, donations etc from outside sources,

thus complying with the Seventh Tradition. Several months ago, a legacy was

declined in the normal way but the solicitor (lawyer) concerned challenged our

right, as a charity, to refuse monies and gave notice to pursue the matter

through the courts. Losing our charitable status could lead to the forfeiture of

all the Fellowship's assets. The Board had, therefore, no alternative but to

place the matter in the hands of our solicitor and eventually to seek the

opinion of counsel. Discussions took place over a lengthy period of time with

representatives of the Treasury Solicitor's Department and the Charities

Commission and it was finally clearly established that we would be in breach of

charitable law if we refused outside contributions. The only solution available

to us was to submit a Private Bill to Parliament which, is successful, would

change the law and allow the Fellowship to decline all, or part of, any

legacies, gifts etc. In effect this will enable the Fellowship to adhere

strictly to the Seventh Tradition and at the same time conform to the law of the

land. A more detailed report will be submitted to the 21st annual General

Service Conference at the University of Manchester, 11-13 April 1986.



"This is an extract from the Parliamentary Bill to which Jim H. refers and which

was eventually passed into law: 'Alcoholics Anonymous is an inchoate fellowship

whose members seek to overcome their addiction to alcohol by the practice and

adherence to a code of principles which have evolved empirically since the

fellowship was founded. Alcoholics Anonymous from time to time receives legacies

or gifts of such magnitude as would, if accepted in whole, endanger the

principle of self help upon which Alcoholics Anonymous operates: Difficulties in

law have been found in disclaiming such legacies or gifts whilst securing the

charitable purposes of the legacy or gift and been made more acute by the rule

of law prohibiting disclaimer in part: It is expedient that the Company (i.e.

AA) should be empowered to deal with legacies or gifts in such a way as to both

uphold the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous and the charitable intent of the

benefactor: May it therefore please Your Majesty that it may be enacted by the

Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice of the Lords Spiritual

and Temporal and Commons, in this present Parliament, and by authority of the

same, as follows ... The Company may if it thinks fit disclaim all or part of

the property comprised in any relevant disposition...' (Alcoholics Anonymous

[Dispositions] Act, 1986).



"Share" then quoted the long form of the Seventh Tradition: "The AA groups

themselves ought to be fully self supported by voluntary contributions of their

own members. We think that each group should soon achieve this ideal; that any

public solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly

dangerous, whether by groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that

acceptance of large gifts from any source or of contributions carrying any

obligation whatever, is unwise. Then, too, we view with much concern those AA

treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to accumulate funds for no

stated AA purpose. Experience has often warned us that nothing can so surely

destroy our spiritual heritage as futile disputes over property, money and

authority."


0 -1 0 0
7271 KATHERINE DI GIULIO
Link to article about Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy Link to article about Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy 3/24/2011 2:42:00 PM


If no one has sent this to you yet, here is a link to an article by Teddy.



http://serenityfound.org/history/nurse.html





Best,

Katherine DiGiulio, Ph.D.

Larkspur Productions, Inc.

45 Franklin Ave.

Plainville, Connecticut 06062-1601

860.747.3992


0 -1 0 0
7272 jamesjharp@suddenlink.net>
The modern medical definition of alcoholism as a disease The modern medical definition of alcoholism as a disease 3/25/2011 4:32:00 PM


"... phenomenon of craving ..." Medical Definition - Disease - An impairment of

health or a condition of abnormal functioning.



These three (3) words, i.e., " ... phenomenon of craving" are contained five (5)

times in the section called The Doctor's Opinion, William D. Silkworth, M.D.,

Alcoholics Anonymous, emphasizing clear unequivocal physiological component to

alcoholism.



This comprehensive definition of Alcoholism was published by the Journal of the

American Medical Association in 1992. This definition was prepared by the Joint

Committee to Study the Definition and Criteria for the Diagnosis of Alcoholism

of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American

Society of Addiction Medicine.



Approved by the Boards of Directors of the National Council on Alcoholism and

Drug Dependence, Inc. (February 3, 1990) and the American Society of Addiction

Medicine (February 25, 1990).



Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical

Association



"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and

environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The

disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or

periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol,

use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most

notably denial."



Primary refers to the nature of alcoholism as a disease entity in addition to

and separate from other pathophysiologic states which may be associated with it.



Primary states that alcoholism, as an addiction, is not a symptom of an

underlying disease state.



Disease means an involuntary disability. It represents the sum of the abnormal

phenomena displayed by a group of individuals. These phenomena are associated

with a specified common set of characteristics by which these individuals differ

from the norm, and which places them at a disadvantage.



Often progressive and fatal means that the disease persists over time and that

physical, emotional, and social changes are often cumulative and may progress as

drinking continues. Alcoholism causes premature death through overdose, organic

complications involving the brain, liver, heart and many other organs, and by

contributing to suicide, homicide, motor vehicle crashes, and other traumatic

events.



Impaired control means the inability to limit alcohol use or to consistently

limit on any drinking occasion the duration of the episode, the quantity

consumed, and/or the behavioral consequences of drinking.



Preoccupation in association with alcohol use indicates excessive, focused

attention given to the drug alcohol, its effects, and/or its use. The relative

value thus assigned to alcohol by the individual often leads to a diversion of

energies away from important life concerns.



Adverse consequences are alcohol-related problems or impairments in such areas

as: physical health (e.g., alcohol withdrawal syndromes, liver disease,

gastritis, anemia, neurological disorders); psychological functioning (e.g.,

impairments in cognition, changes in mood and behavior); interpersonal

functioning (e.g., marital problems and child abuse, impaired social

relationships); occupational functioning (e.g., scholastic or job problems); and

legal, financial, or spiritual problems.



Denial is used here not only in the psychoanalytic sense of a single

psychological defense mechanism disavowing the significance of events, but more

broadly to include a range of psychological maneuvers designed to reduce

awareness of the fact that alcohol use is the cause of an individual's problems

rather than a solution to those problems. Denial becomes an integral part of the

disease and a major obstacle to recovery.



--End of definition --



Gratefully Yours,



Jim H.


0 -1 0 0
7273 bent_christensen5
Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent 3/24/2011 6:22:00 PM


Thank you so much all.



I'll pass your experience to fellow AA members and hopefully we will be able to

convince our General Service Board that they have chosen a dangerous path.



All the Best

Bent


0 -1 0 0
7274 Murray Eaton
Canada: AA groups and clubs paying rent Canada: AA groups and clubs paying rent 3/23/2011 11:45:00 PM


From: Murray Eaton <murmeister2001@hotmail.com>



Hello;



Several years ago one of our groups here in Canada asked for a special rate

because AA was a non-profit organization of a different type. The Community Hall

went to the papers with the request who printed an article about AA wanting

special treatment. The publicity was embarrassing and unwelcome and the request

was a contravention of the 7th Tradition.



30 years ago I was told that we could not even accept such things as

well-meaning Church Ladies making and donating sandwiches for our meetings or

free coffee from a member who owned a restaurant on a regular basis.



The group, as a whole, had to be self-supporting. The 7th Tradition is very

clear about us being self-supporting and that means not accepting handouts even

when they are there for the taking. Bill Wilson's explanation in the Twelve and

Twelve is very detailed and one would hope it would be the final word.



In Love and Service



Murray E.

Brampton, On.



- - - -



From: gary lockhart <garylock7008@yahoo.ca>



Gary up here in Canada, eh!



Close to Niagara Falls. To my knowledge - all groups, meetings, districts, in

our Area 86 - pay their own rent and in some cases - insurance, as some

facilities are asking that of us. Some groups use the 7th Tradition monies for

medallions and refreshments - while others are opposed to this practice as

neither seems to be a part of traditional AA. Having served at various levels of

our Service structure for the past 20+ years, I have yet to hear of a rent free

facility. Gary



- - - -



From: Michael Dunn <mdshediac@yahoo.ca>



In my local area, AA groups meet in church halls and similar buildings, usually

without rent required. My own group meets in two different buildings of this

nature and we donate the equivalent of reasonable rent to the building owners.



At one time we had a club in the closest city, the building was owned by a few

AA members as a separate corporation in the name of the owners, the AA name was

not used at all. The AA group was of course a separate entity and paid rent to

the corporation. With the growth in the number of groups in the area, this club

eventually closed its doors. Most meetings today are in churches, municipal

facilities etc., though a few groups rent space in commercial buildings.



Michael D.

Shediac NB, Canada


0 -1 0 0
7275 edgarc@aol.com
Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/24/2011 4:41:00 AM


From Edgar C., Sober 186, Les Cole, and Jim Robbins



- - - -



From: edgarc@aol.com (edgarc at aol.com)



The three groups in which I am active here in Sarasota, Florida, all pay rent

for use of church facilities, as have all the groups I have been associated

with in the past, both here and in the Chicago, Illinois area. One exception was

a local hospital which offered us a free room for our weekly Traditions

meeting. When the group conscience refused to challenge the no-rent status, a

few of us including me left the group. There was a certain delicious irony in a

Traditions meeting group consciously violating a basic Tradition through a

group conscience vote. But we must remember that as Bill W said, every group

has the right to be wrong.



Edgar C, Sarasota, Florida



- - - -



From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)



Tradition three reads ... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for

sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have

no other affiliation. The group cited does not seem to have any other

affiliation, so my call itself an A.A. group.



Also, Tradition three also makes each group autonomous. The long form stays,

"With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no

other authority than its own conscience." So, while I may have my own opinion

on the matter, my opinion does not count unless I am a member of that home

group. If so, I get a vote. My side will not always prevail.



Tradition seven reads that A.A. groups 'ought to be' fully self supporting.

IMHO, That means the tradition can be seen as a simply reminder to make sure

the group and the body offering the space be separate.



While I may personally feel that it is not be the best thing for a group to

accept free rent there is nothing in the traditions to prevent it.



As Bill wrote, each group should be free to make its own mistakes.



Jim L. in Central Ohio



- - - -



From: LES COLE <elsietwo@msn.com> (elsietwo at msn.com)



Hi All:



Here is another thought about RENT for Fellowship Meeting space ...



I think there is too much emphasis these days on "paying our own way" or

"accepting no charity". Yes ... Fellowship meetings are for our own benefits,

but the very existence of an AA group(s) in the community is in fact, a

community service. Meetings are advertised (in various ways) so that new,

unserved alcoholics, might become interested in the AA 12-steps process...and

certainly, as a beginning, for fellowship with others who are recovering

sobriety. Let's avoid myopia ast being a "poor" organization. We will not

destroy the whole AA System if we use some good-old Vermont Common-Sense which

characterized Bill's whole life !!!!



I believe for example; that a church which offers a room for AA meetings, sees

AA as a "charitable" organization and thereby is more than willing to offer its

space for a nominal price or ... no-price-at-all! There is no need for us to

get hung up on constantly trying to figure out what Bill Wilson advocated back

in the 30s in everything we decide to do/think today. The fundamental message

which Bill promoted was "FLEXIBILITY." He invented a system which works for

many, many of us. It has been "all inclusive" from the beginning...and that

means that the only question to be asked is: "Do you have a drinking problem

which you would like to change?"



With respect to current AAHL posts about "spirituality" ... let's also remember,

that Bill did a lot of thinking as he grew up in a very small Vermont town where

there was/is two formal churches ... one Catholic and one Congregational (plus a

number of "free thinkers" like Mark Whalon). Bill rebelled against dogmatic

beliefs during his youth, but he gradually began to develop the use of the word

God as he became an adult ... and he never openly adopted a specific Religion as

his own. When he married into the Burnham family, he learned everything about

the Swedenborgian religion, and those tenets affected him daily.



Les C

Colorado Springs, Colorado



- - - -



From: "Jim Robbins" <jrobbins1123@yahoo.com>

(jrobbins1123 at yahoo.com)



In one group I attend, we pay rent each month. In another, we don't pay rent,

but make a donation to a charitable cause in the landlord's name each month.


0 -1 0 0
7276 Cindy Miller
One dollar in the basket no longer works One dollar in the basket no longer works 3/24/2011 8:44:00 AM


This discussion about AA groups paying rent touches off an important discussion

about the 7th Tradition: that the "$1 in the basket" rule which came into being

in the 60's is not working today, 50 years later-- and many groups are in

financial trouble. This custom seems (in some cases) not to have changed.



Has anyone seen a poster which touched on this (I think it's an Intergroup thing

-- GSO has no opinion on this?) I saw it about 10 years ago and have not been

able to find it since....



It went something like this:



COFFEE: 1960 @ 10 cents a cup ......... 2000 @ $1.00

GAS: 1960 @ 27 cents a gallon ......... 2000 @ $2.00

CIGARETTES: 1960 @ 35 cents a pack ....... 2000 @ $3

CONTRIBUTION IN BASKET: 1960 @ $1.00 .. 2000 @ $1.00



As Bill once said "...tight as the bark on a tree..." LOL!



Staying In Service,

Cindy


0 -1 0 0
7277 dillonr9@yahoo.com
Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook 3/26/2011 9:41:00 AM


Victor Kitchen, in his book, I WAS A PAGAN (1934) cites 5 P's he was a pagan to:

power, possession, position, pleasure and Applause. Perhaps this book was in

Bill's mind. He may have read this book while a member of the Oxford Group since

its author was also a member of the Oxford Group. Peace.



- - - -



From GC the moderator:



Vic Kitchen and Bill Wilson both joined the Oxford Group in New York City at

about the same time, and were friends. Kitchen gives an excellent picture of

what the Oxford Group looked like (and how it functioned and what it taught) in

the New York City area at the time Bill Wilson was active in the group.



For the text of I Was a Pagan, see www.stepstudy.org and for a description of

what the book taught, see http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html



The Five P's passage is at the beginning of Chapter 1. I quote the opening of

that chapter here:



CHAPTER I

THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS

PAGANISM



At twenty, life looked like a high adventure -- intriguing and indecorous. At

thirty, it looked like a high endeavor -- socially and economically important.

By forty, however, I grew highly dubious. Life seemed to have lost flavor on

both counts. It was then that I met the Oxford Group. At this time, I think, I

would have described myself as "white, married and a Christian." Actually I was

somewhat tarnished and discolored, married in name only, and very much of a

pagan. A pagan is a man who spends his time chasing false gods. And I had spent

forty years of my time in chasing "Pleasure," "Possessions," "Power," "Position"

and "Applause." I now call these pagan goals my unfortunate five "P’s."



- - - -



Original Message from: "calistogababe"

<suzthurston@earthlink.net>

Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011

Subject: Name of book/author on 3 p's: prestige, power and pocketbook



There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing

the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3

principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3

p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook.



Does anyone know the name of that book or the author?



Many thanks,

Suzanne T.


0 -1 0 0
7278 Kimball ROWE
Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/25/2011 5:32:00 PM


From Kimball Rowe, Ed O (Denton, Texas), and Steven Calderbank



- - - -



From: Kimball ROWE <roweke@msn.com>

(roweke at msn.com)



The Big Book does not attempt to define what an alcoholic is. It merely

describes the alcoholic by general observations (loss of control, progressive,

like us, etc.). I think this is done so the new person can identify and not be

excluded. The book leaves the actual diagnosis up to each individual. If AA

were to define what an alcoholic is, then someone would surely die (I'm not that

bad, it doesn't apply, I've got a few good years left, etc.).



The rate (percentage) given in the book and in my original message is not of

those who recovered but of those who sobered up. It is very easy to quantify

sobriety (not drinking). I think we all know people who got sober and did not

recover (they are the ones with the white knuckles). The percentages given in

the Big Book do not discuss the "early days." The early days was trial and

error, hit or miss and many did not make it and some died. The percentages

mentioned were in the foreword of the 2nd edition (1955) after the program of

recovery had been thoroughly tested. As to how to define "accepting the

program," I'm afraid I'm going to have to defer to the Big Book itself:



The Big Book is precise, specific, detailed, exact, clear and all you need to

begin:



PRECISE: To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main

purpose of this book. (Foreword to the First Edition, xiii)



SPECIFIC: "What do I have to do?" It is the purpose of this book to answer such

questions specifically. (There is a Solution, pg 20)



DETAILED: We shall tell you what we have done. Before going into a detailed

discussion, it may be well to summarize some points as we see them. (There is a

Solution, pg 20)



EXACT: We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power

greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?

Well, that's exactly what this book is about. (We Agnostics, pg 45)



CLEAR CUT: Further on, clear cut directions are given showing how we

recovered. (There is a Solution, pg 29)



ALL YOU NEED: Thus we grow. And so can you, though you be but one man with this

book in your hand, we believe and hope it contains all you will need to begin.

(A Vision for You, pg 162-163)



I know some still say that "our book is meant to be suggestive only" or that

"more will be revealed." The book was written in 1939. Don't you think that if a

better plan or a better idea had been devised by one of the countless thousands

of geniuses that sobered up after 1939 that they would have included it in the

first 164 pages of the book Alcoholics Anonymous? Even the brightest bulb in

our fellowship has yet to add or remove anything from the original program of

recovery.



Thousands of people share in meeting these days on how they work "their

program." And believe it or not, I'm ok with that, so long as they don't call

it the AA program of recovery. People unable to accept the AA program of

Alcoholics Anonymous generally find another way to say sober. AA has no

monopoly upon therapy for the alcoholic (see page xxi). If you don't like the

AA program, there are 48 other treatment modalities to choose from. I chose AA

for a number of reasons. The first is that only AA has "Old-Timers."



Laying aside the "percentages," only AA has a program of growth after recovery.

This is not a program where you recover, then get sent away -- on the contrary,

they ask you to come back. The people who help me do so from personal

experience and not because a textbook tells them I am eligible for a class C

intervention. In short, each person has the right to select their method of

recovery, the AA program or something else. In general terms, if you thoroughly

follow the path, completely give yourself to this simple program, are rigorously

honest, go to any lengths, take certain steps, are fearless and thorough from

the very start, let go of your old ideas absolutely, find a Higher Power, and

take the suggestions, then I'd have to say you have accepted the program.



I find no difference between the people coming through the doors today, and

those coming through the doors when I first sobered up. I think the fundamental

reason for this is that selfishness is still selfishness, self-centeredness is

still self-centeredness, ego is still ego, an obsession is still an obsession,

and that physical craving is still the same physical craving.



Oh, the times have changed but the alcoholic did not. Some will say that we are

under greater pressures today, but just try selling that bologna to the

"Greatest Generation." I remember outhouses, crank phones and life without a

TV. Those days did not stop my grandfather from drinking. Not did iPod force a

drink down my throat. The ego, the obsession and the phenomenon of craving seem

to be impervious to the environment.



Not do I believe that alcoholism is genetic. If it were genetic, then why aren't

we all in gene therapy? Have you ever seen a gene whose ego had to be smashed?

For that matter, have you ever seen a gene with an ego?



I do believe that it is a disease (so did Congress in Alcoholism Prevention,

Treatment and Rehabilitation Act of 1970, also known as the Hughes Act. which

declared alcoholism an illness and provided funding for treatment centers --

thus the explosion of treatment centers in the 70s). I also believe that it is

an allergy provided you use the AMA's definition of an allergy: "An allergy is

an abnormal reaction to a foreign substance." Alcohol is foreign to the human

body and when I swallow it I react abnormally.



The phenomenon of craving is not normal. The folks sobering up in the 30's had

the same illness and the same allergy that I do. They wrote a book that solved

their problem. They also wrote a book that solved my problem. Thus we are the

same.



I've been doing this for a long time. In conclusion I must say that defining

the problem is not nearly as constructive as defining the solution. I find my

solution in the book.



- - - -



From: "edcasey74" <personaminor@gmail.com>

(personaminor at gmail.com)



Jim,



I think the only way to define sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous is to go back to

the Big Book. I understand that individual interpretations may vary, but I

always try to look back at the collective experience of our founders when I hear

anyone's individual experience.



The title page of the Big Book says that this is "The story of how many

thousands of men and women have recovered from alcoholism." This is a lot of

hope, but before I can recover from alcoholism, I need to see if I'm an

alcoholic. Of course this is something I need to diagnose for myself, but I need

some information about alcoholism first.



In summary, the book defines alcoholism as a hopeless state of mind and body.

The body refers to the physical reaction to alcohol (the allergy which produces

a craving). If I can drink without developing the phenomenon of craving, I'm not

an active alcoholic (though I might yet become one in the future). The mind is

the mental obsession. If I can choose to quit drinking and stay stopped on my

own will power, I'm not an alcoholic (though I may progress). I'm sure you know

all this, but it's surprising how many in AA don't.



What came along with what you said about early AAs not being allowed into

meetings until they had finished the steps (a very common practice for the first

20 years or so of AA's history) was a system of personal sponsorship, the first

step of which was qualification. If you showed up at an early AA group (most of

them), they assigned you a sponsor, and that man or woman sat down with you and

qualified you as an alcoholic. If you didn't exhibit both the physical and

mental symptoms, they made sure you understood that you were not an active

alcoholic, and though you might yet become one, you didn't need AA.



Of course, if you had both symptoms, wanted to quit drinking for good, and were

willing to go to any lengths to stop, that man or woman would take you through

the steps in a very short period of time (see "He Sold Himself Short," pg. 258

in the 4th ed.). Then that person would sponsor you into the meeting, their word

that you had worked the steps being good enough to allow you in as a recovered

alcoholic.



In regards to the statistics in the Foreword to the Second Edition, many early

groups kept membership records. They also took attendance; it was the

secretary's job to make sure all members were present, and if someone was

absent, the secretary would get someone to call or visit that person and make

sure everything was okay (or 12th-step them). If you showed up at a group for

your first time, it was also the secretary's responsibility to assign you a

sponsor. So in many of the early groups, they knew exactly how many people were

coming, and how many were sticking.



Nowadays we don't keep the same kinds of stats, so it's difficult to make the

same kind of report. In my own experience, I don't see those kind of success

rates in most groups in my area. When I visit a group that I've going to for a

while, I don't often see many people who were sober when I got there. We'll have

lots of newcomers and people with a couple of years, and a couple of guys with

over 20 years, but hardly anyone between 3 and 15 years. It's very odd. People

will come for a while, but they don't tend to stick for a very long time.



I know the Program works, but obviously something is different around here.



Ed O - Denton, Texas



- - - -



From: "Steven" <steven.calderbank@verizon.net>

(steven.calderbank at verizon.net)



The whole notion of AA's success rates seems foolish, much like trying to

quantify who in church will go to Heaven. How does one measure "those who really

tried"?


0 -1 0 0
7279 gcdavid1
An additional way to quantify the AA success rate An additional way to quantify the AA success rate 3/29/2011 9:30:00 PM


An additional way to use some fairly precise historical data already in our

possession, to at least roughly quantify the early AA success rate:



I couldn't help but think of the "numbers" printed on the inside of the Big

Book's dust jacket. It gives some good clues as to AA's "success rate" between

1939, 1955 and 1976.



It states that "in 1955 membership had reached over 150,000, and the Big Book

had reached a distribution of more than 300,000." That is right on the 50% mark,

as stated by Bill in the foreword to the second edition.



It goes on to say in "March 1976, worldwide membership of AA was estimated at

1,000,000 or more. Copies of "Alcoholics Anonymous" in circulation (1st and 2nd

editions) exceeded 1,450,000. It appears that between 1955 and 1976 the "rate"

of recovery based on the number of Big Books out there and the membership

estimation, the rate was well over 60%.



David M, on the road ....


0 -1 0 0
7280 bxdennis
The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature 3/27/2011 7:55:00 AM


I want to thank Jim H. for bringing to light the current medical definition of

alcoholism. This is also the definition used in modern AA literature employed by

AA Area committees for Cooperation with the Professional Community, etc.



See AAWS pamphlet (P-23) "AA as a Resource for the Healthcare Professional,"

where the footnote appears:



==============================================

*The definition of alcoholism as defined by the American Society of Addiction

Medicine and the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence:



"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and

environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The

disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control

over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite

adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial. Each of

these symptoms may be continuous or periodic." (1992)

==============================================



This pamphlet is used primarily by the Cooperation with the Professional

Community, Public Information and Treatment Facilities Committees in carrying

the AA message.



Dennis M.


0 -1 0 0
7281 edgarc@aol.com
The two-dollar bill in the basket strategy The two-dollar bill in the basket strategy 3/26/2011 5:37:00 AM


A few of us here in Sarasota, Florida routinely stop in a bank and buy $2 bills

then use those for the collection basket. Many people comment, and we hope some

follow the lead by going from $1 to a couple of singles.



Edgar C



TO SEE WHAT ONE LOOKS LIKE, GO TO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_two-dollar_bill


0 -1 0 0
7282 Janis R
RE: One dollar in the basket no longer works One dollar in the basket no longer works 3/25/2011 6:16:00 PM


From Janis Raley, Doug Barrie, aalogsdon, and So. Jersey Ginger



- - - -



From: "Janis R" <janis@aadallas.org>

(janis at aadallas.org)



We have free posters comparing the prices you are talking about that we

produce in house. It is for 2009 but we are going to update later this

year. If anyone wants one let me know.



Janis S. Raley

Director, Dallas Intergroup Assn.

phone 214-887-6699

email <janis@aadallas.org> (janis at aadallas.org)



- - - -



From: "Doug B." <dougb@aahistory.com>

(dougb at aahistory.com)



Cindy,



I have copies of the large and small posters, and the 2 handouts that were part

of this campaign in the year 2000.



The man who started it was a wealthy member who tried to contribute a large

amount of money to the GSO and was turned down because of the size of the check.

He then decided to launch this campaign aimed at sending these materials to all

of the central offices (at his expense) to get the groups and individuals to

contribute more to make up for the shortfalls we were thought to be

experiencing.



I tried to call the man and interview him in December 2004 but he had died a

month earlier.



Doug Barrie

E-MAIL: dougb@aahistory.com (dougb at aahistory.com)



- - - -



From: Aalogsdon <aalogsdon@aol.com>

(aalogsdon at aol.com)



I have the poster from ten years ago, which Cindy referred to, and assume that

they can be reproduced.



- - - -



From: vvpeachy@aol.com (vvpeachy at aol.com)



Hello Cindy!



I'm Ginger and used to volunteer in our Intergroup Office when this poster

arrived and we used it for a while, saying we neither endorsed nor opposed it.



My memory says it came from Las Vegas Intergroup, unsure.



My group approves this being left on our flyer table. We neither endorse nor

oppose. FYI ONLY left on the IG hand-outs tables...



Common sense and facing our problems, including $, keeps my faith strong.



God Bless,

So. Jersey Ginger



(Live, Love, Learn, Laugh! Ginger F. & Ron B.)



- - - -



Original Message from: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2011

Subject: One dollar in the basket no longer works



This discussion about AA groups paying rent touches off an important discussion

about the 7th Tradition: that the "$1 in the basket" rule which came into being

in the 60's is not working today, 50 years later-- and many groups are in

financial trouble. This custom seems (in some cases) not to have changed.



Has anyone seen a poster which touched on this (I think it's an Intergroup thing

-- GSO has no opinion on this?) I saw it about 10 years ago and have not been

able to find it since....



It went something like this:



COFFEE: 1960 @ 10 cents a cup ......... 2000 @ $1.00

GAS: 1960 @ 27 cents a gallon ......... 2000 @ $2.00

CIGARETTES: 1960 @ 35 cents a pack ....... 2000 @ $3

CONTRIBUTION IN BASKET: 1960 @ $1.00 .. 2000 @ $1.00


0 -1 0 0
7283 joe
Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain AA groups paying rent in Great Britain 3/29/2011 6:27:00 AM


With respect to message #7270 from Laurie Andrews

<jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7270



LAURIE SAID: In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to

pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen

a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York.

Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA

Great Britain website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share"

magazine (the Great Britain equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report ....



I have seen the text of this Act posted on the wall of the Great Britain GSO

Archives display in York, England. It is a powerful spiritual example of going

any lengths to adhere to our traditions. However, the solicitors (lawyers) on

both sides had a hand in it.



The law passed, in practice, could result in money donated to AA Grat Britain

not actually be returned to the family of the donor, but instead be sent to

another registered charity that does alcohol research (of a sort that AA may or

may not agree with -- research that we certainly do not endorse or oppose in any

way).



I am looking through my files to see if I can find a copy of how it is written,

but the large ornamental one that I saw was framed on the wall.



Roger W.


0 -1 0 0
7284 Mike Batty
Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/26/2011 10:37:00 AM


From Mike Batty, Sherry Hartsell, George C., Lynn Sawyer, Larry Tooley, and

David Brown



- - - -



Mike Batty <mcbat.t@rogers.com>

(mcbat.t at rogers.com)



A meeting that was started here in our town in a facility that refuses to take

rent presented us with a bit of a dilemma. These digs are superb but the mandate

of the owner was to allow community groups free use of their facility when not

needed for their own purposes and they refuse rental payments.



The accommodations are fantastic as this is a first rate separate building on

the grounds of a funeral home that is known as their family center and use for

after service gatherings. China cups, broadloom, gorgeous furniture, fireplace,

comfortable seating. You could not ask for anything better.



We solved the problem by giving them money to donate to their favorite charity

and also a monthly contribution to their paid attendant who often has the coffee

on and the fireplace going when the first of us arrives. They did take that

money and we feel we have appeased ourselves with the seventh tradition. Call it

what you will, donation, honorarium, rent, we feel we are paying our way. We

feel we solved our dilemma.



BTW we had considered naming ourselves the "Grateful We Aren't Dead" but out of

deference to the location just decided on "Early Birds" as we meet at 8 am.



Mike Batty, Waterloo, Ontario



- - - -



From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" <hartsell@etex.net>

(hartsell at etex.net)



Many institutions like churches and hospitals are forbidden by their set-up to

CHARGE rent, most groups deal with that by making a CONTRIBUTION to their

Building Maintenance Fund, find the financial officer, they'll accept it that

way, at least all have in my experience.



Sherry C. H.

Pittsburg, Texas AA Group



- - - -



From: "george" <clevelandgeorgem@gmail.com>

(clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com)



I'm the director of a non-profit facility in New Hampshire that hosts seven 12

step meetings a week. Almost all are AA. All of those groups pay us something.

The highest is $40 per month. We have a new 11th Step meeting that's started and

runs right after a regular meeting. Because it's new and word is still getting

out, we aren't charging them.



Most of these meetings are at night. It's cold in New Hampshire. Cold means ice

which means sand which means dirt all over the floor. The same floor that is

used for yoga or exercise classes the next morning. And there's heat. We don't

ask or expect the groups to spit shine the floor. But it takes one of us a bit

of time to redo the room.



"Expecting" free room use is not reasonable. I would wager that 99.7% of AA

groups pay for the coffee they use. Would the No Rent faction leave a meeting

that used 7th Tradition funds to pay for the coffee? A good argument could be

made for groups to only buy Fair Trade coffee so they feel comfortable that the

workers are being fairly paid and don't have to resort to drugs to augment their

income ... and so on down the rabbit hole.



My humble interpretation of working the Steps includes a sponsor showing me how

to make financial amends and learning to pay my bills; not looking for easier,

softer way. Our staff and our board consider it part of OUR responsibility to

the community to make meeting space available. And needless to say, I like

having a meeting I don't have to drive to ...



George



- - - -



From: Lynn Sawyer <sawyer7952@yahoo.com>

(sawyer7952 at yahoo.com)



Dear Bent,



Can only speak for my area. I'm in Northern California, USA, and almost all of

our groups are self-supporting, in terms of paying rent, as is recommended by

our Traditions. Maybe you've gotten some responses from elsewhere, too .........



Lynn S.

keepin' it simple

Sacramento, California, USA



- - - -



From: "Larry Tooley" <wa9guu@charter.net>

(wa9guu at charter.net)



Yes but: my old sponsor said we are to get back into the mainstream of society.

We pay our own way. We AA's need to learn that. Our church needs to see that. If

you don't get much money give half for rent. Sadly one bloke accepted free two

big fans as charity. Are we a welfare society now?



Larry T, Centralia, Illinois



- - - -



From: David Brown <copperas44@yahoo.com>

(copperas44 at yahoo.com)



The dangerous path is the wrong path as it ignores the premise of the traditions

.... fight to make sure that this does not stand.


0 -1 0 0
7285 joe
Kistler''s Donut Shop Kistler''s Donut Shop 3/26/2011 11:04:00 PM


I searched earlier posts and the internet regarding the tradition of serving

coffee and donuts in early meetings. I remember (or think I do) reading about a

group who went to a donut shop after the meeting, but because of the depression

era economy of the 1930's decided to bring donuts to the meeting for those who

could not afford the luxury of going to the donut shop. It may have been

Kistler's Donut shop in Akron, which is no longer there. If anyone can point me

to such a story I would be grateful. I am scanning AA Comes of Age, Dr. Bob and

Good Oldtimers, or Pass it On where it might be but haven't found it again yet.



Roger



- - - -



From the moderator: see http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html for one reference, to

Glenn Chesnut's article on the early Akron AA figure J. D. Holmes, citing Dr.

Bob and the Good Oldtimers page 147. This was around early 1938, and J. D. was

describing the early Akron AA get-togethers:



==============================================

"Ernie's mother used to throw a party every two weeks during this period. She'd

make the doughnuts, and though everybody was broke, we all brought something. It

was nothing unusual to see 25 or 30 people over there drinking coffee and eating

doughnuts."

==============================================


0 -1 0 0
7286 rajiv
Re: God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics God as we understood Him: atheists and agnostics 3/27/2011 5:45:00 AM


From Rajiv and Bruce K.



- - - -



From: "rajiv" <rajiv.BeHappy@gmail.com>

(rajiv.BeHappy at gmail.com)



The 12 Steps given in the Big Book are the steps which the authors had taken,

because they have said "These are the steps we took ..." in introducing the 12

Steps. So when they write "God as we understood Him," it can only mean God as

the authors understood Him.



And they have explained their understanding of God in the previous chapter 'We

Agnostics.' In this chapter they begin by telling us that about half of them

were either atheists or agnostics when they came to AA. So first of all they

define the term 'Power greater than ourselves' as a 'power by which we could

live', pg 45.



Websters Dictionary says that in the English writing system, 'unfamiliar words

when first introduced and defined in a text' are usually italicized.



As we are not powers there can be no such thing as a 'power greater than us' or

a 'Power greater than ourselves'. These expressions are semantically absurd and

so, not to be found in written English.

Bill was an expert in written English; as it had been his job to scrutinize

Stock-proxy and legal documents. So when he first introduced the unfamiliar

expression 'Power greater than ourselves' in the Big Book for the first time on

page 45, he italicized it and explained it as a 'power by which we could live.'



Thus having defined what the authors meant by God, Power and Power greater than

ourselves, they explained their understanding of God on page 55: that it was a

Power that could only be found deep down within ourselves. And they also tell us

that 'It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but

in some form or the other it is there.'



This I believe, is what the book means by saying God as we understood Him.



Rajiv



- - - -



From: bruceken@aol.com (bruceken at aol.com)



I am an atheist with regard to a "person" God and I'm a man with 24 years of

joyful sobriety. Yet I try not to evangelize my views in AA.



I only discuss my perception of our higher power if the topic of discussion is

"God" or "religious spirituality" and then only to emphasize to any newcomers

that is not necessary to believe in the God of our childhood in order to get

sober and have a full, productive and creative life.



The whole subject is so full of semantic hazards, that it is almost impossible

to discuss it in a meaningful way without a lengthy elaboration.



Bruce K.

San Francisco


0 -1 0 0
7287 Doug B.
Re: Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year Anne Ripley Smith''s Birth Year 3/28/2011 12:53:00 AM


The digital archives at the Grapevine web site also has March 21 for her birth

date.



Doug B.

www.aahistory.com



________________________________________



Original Message from Arthur S.

Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year

Date: 03/24/11



> MARCH 21, NOT MARCH 3

>

> Although it can't be distributed, the attached is a scan of the June 1950

Grapevine article. It clearly states "March 21, 1881 - June 1, 1949."

>

> Since the article was written a year after Anne's passing, and Dr Bob was

still living, I'd prefer to give credence to it as opposed to the other cited

sources.

>

> I'd appreciate seeing a copy of the June 1950 article (not a

transcription) that shows "March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949" as

stated below.

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

>

________________________________________

>

> From: OedipusTax

> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011

> Subject: Re: Anne Ripley Smith's Birth Year

>

> Contrary to what Arthur S. and Jim Blair said, the June 1950 Grapevine article

does not say March 21 but March 3:

>

> Anne Ripley Smith

> March 3, 1881 -- June 1, 1949

> The Loving "Spiritual Rock" of Early A.A.

> Wife of Dr. Bob

> "The Mother of A.A."


0 -1 0 0
7288 J. Lobdell
Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent? 3/28/2011 9:26:00 AM


After referring correctly to Tradition Three (on forming a group) Sober86 has

(doubtless unintentially) then referred to Tradition Three when Tradition Four

is the one meant (on group autonomy) -- but, more to the point, the autonomy

noted in Tradition Four is not absolute -- the form discussed in the 12&12

(short or current form) reads "Each group should be autonomous except in matters

affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole" (the long form talks about bringing

matters to the attention of the Trustees or GSO) -- and, of course, what one

group is known to do will affect what other nearby groups do.



As an example, when a group in the town where I live voted without notification

at a closed meeting to open that closed meeting to a non-member and claimed that

this was a "group-conscience" vote -- thereby going against a considerable

weight of AA literature on "group conscience" and the need for an informed group

conscience -- the non-member in question continued to accompany that

non-member's "significant other" to other closed meetings. On being challenged,

the person in question said "Well, the other group said I could come, so I'm

coming" and became highly indignant when the difference between closed and open

meetings was explained: I should mention that this was the fourth closed meeting

this person had tried to attend (though the first attempt at the group that

tried to explain the matter).



As to accepting support from outside A.A., the example of one group's (say)

allowing non-members to put money in the basket, or another's selling raffle

tickets or dance tickets for fundraising to non-members, is considered by some

AAs to be the kind of breach in the wall that is likely to bring the whole

structure down eventually (and thus obviously a matter affecting A.A. as a

whole). I have heard the reply, when a group treasurer said, "well it's only a

little bit" -- "Yes, and it was only a little slip -- but the guy lost his

sobriety." As with alcohol, I suspect, the safe course would be abstinence, so

that it's not necessary to argue over size of outside donation -- or the motive

in taking it. But however the argument on those points would come out, what

I've seen in studying the development of the Tradition, is that the matter of

who can contribute has been deemed (by quite a number of AAs over the years) a

matter affecting A.A. as a whole -- see, for example, the ruckus over

transportation and other costs and abeyance of costs at the san Diego

International in 1995.

________________________________________





AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011

Subject: Re: Historically, have AA groups and clubs paid rent?



> From: Sober186@aol.com (Sober186 at aol.com)

>

> Tradition three reads ... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for

sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have

no other affiliation. The group cited does not seem to have any other

affiliation, so my call itself an A.A. group.

>

> Also, Tradition three also makes each group autonomous. The long form stays,

"With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no

other authority than its own conscience." So, while I may have my own opinion on

the matter, my opinion does not count unless I am a member of that home group.

If so, I get a vote. My side will not always prevail.

>

> Tradition seven reads that A.A. groups 'ought to be' fully self supporting.

IMHO, That means the tradition can be seen as a simply reminder to make sure the

group and the body offering the space be separate.

>

> While I may personally feel that it is not be the best thing for a group to

accept free rent there is nothing in the traditions to prevent it.

>

> As Bill wrote, each group should be free to make its own mistakes.

>

> Jim L. in Central Ohio


0 -1 0 0
7289 jaxena77
San Quentin Radio Play San Quentin Radio Play 3/29/2011 7:09:00 PM


I came across an interesting mention in one of Bill W's convention speeches from

Cleveland in July 1950. I am looking for a transcript or audio recording of a

radio dramatization of AA life in prison that Bill W. made reference to in his

"We Come of Age" speech. Here is an excerpt of his speech:



Next came that wonderful session on prisons. Our great friend, Warden Duffy told

the startling story of our original group at San Quentin. His account of A.A.`s

5-year history there had a moving prelude. We heard a recording, soon for radio

release, that thrillingly dramatized an actual incident of A.A. life within the

walls. An alcoholic prisoner reacts bitterly to his confinement and develops

amazing ingenuity in finding and drinking alcohol. Soon he becomes too

ingenious. In the prison paint shop he discovers a promising fluid which he

shares with his fellow alcoholics. It was deadly poison. Harrowing hours

followed, during which several of them died. The whole prison was tense as the

fatalities continued to mount. Nothing but quick blood transfusions could save

those still living. The San Quentin A.A. Group volunteered instantly and spent

the rest of that long night giving of themselves as they had never given before.

A.A. hadn't been any too popular, but now prison morale hit an all time high and

stayed there. Many of the survivors joined up. The first Prison Group had made

its mark; A.A. had come to San Quentin to stay.



I have been researching the history of AA in prisons, specifically San Quentin

for a number of years and this particular item would be so important to the

Western Area archives, and my own work. Where could I start looking for this

recording or script?



P.S. On a side note, I have also been looking for transcripts or recordings of

Bill W's speech in San Quentin in the 50's. I have not yet contacted the prison

itself.



Thank you! Jackie B


0 -1 0 0
7290 robtwoodson
Re: Kistler''s Donut Shop Kistler''s Donut Shop 3/31/2011 9:16:00 AM


Roger,



One difficulty in your search may be the fact that the name of Kistler's donut

shop is misspelled (as Kessler's) in an early account by Wally G. (Gilliam) that

is included in Dr.Bob and the Good Oldtimers" on P. 141 in the Chapter titled

"Early Meetings and Big Book controversies" quoted below...



"After the meeting closed with the Lord's Prayer, all the men beat it to the

kitchen for coffee, and most of the women sat around talking to each other,"

said Wally, "Usually the social part of the evening lasted an hour to an hour

and a half. But it wasn't until we started going to Kessler's Donut Shop that

it became a real social hour."



While I cannot document the following at this time, perhaps someone can; here in

Akron, one understanding is that the donut shop routine continued until the

donut shop itself was essentially outgrown by the fellowship. At the point

when the donut shop became too crowded and that seating was no longer available

for everyone after the meeting, eventually someone came up with the bright idea

of taking the donuts back to the meeting ... (which at that time would have been

King School).



Hope that this may be helpful,

Be a good guy and keep your powder dry,

Woody in Akron


0 -1 0 0
7291 Charles Knapp
Early California AA meetings: coffee and doughnuts etc. Early California AA meetings: coffee and doughnuts etc. 3/31/2011 4:51:00 PM


Sybil C on one of her tapes talked about the first meeting she attended on the

West Coast. In Los Angeles, the first half of the meeting was open to both

husbands and wives. The second half was just for the alcoholic men. It was

believed at that time women couldn't be alcoholic. At the break, the wives would

prepare refreshments, which were enjoyed at the end of the meeting. When it came

time for the women to leave, Sybil was told to go with the other women. At that

point she broke down and cried. She desperately needed help. They took a vote

and she was able to stay. She became the first sober woman west of the the

Mississippi.



In both San Bernardino and Riverside, California, the first meetings were held

in members' homes. They were open meetings and both husband and wives attended

and both stayed until the end of the meeting. After the meeting the host served

coffee and occasionally cookies or cake. Most of the wives objected to a lot of

coffee being drunk because it would keep their husbands awake all night.

According to Drew S. from San Bernardino, California, who got sober in 1942,

coffee and refreshments weren't served at any meeting, outside of homes he knew

until they started meeting in local churches that had kitchens. In the North

Hollywood area, I had heard of one group had a social hour before the meeting,

where they had coffee and donuts. This gave time for older members to get to

know some of the newer ones and others to just have some socializing before the

meeting.



Also mostly the big cities had coffee shops that were open late or even 24 hours

a day. The early meetings in Southern California didn't start until 8:30 or 9:00

at night and weren't over til 10 or 10:30. So it was very unlikely anyone went

out for coffee after a meeting unless it was in LA or other big city. I have

also been told the idea of having coffee and refreshments during meetings didn't

really catch on in SoCal until after they held several public meetings where

they had coffee and refreshments available at the beginning and throughout the

entire meeting. The sober drunks liked the idea of sipping coffee while

listening to a speaker so that is how the practice helped get started there.



Hope this helps



Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
7292 Glenn Chesnut
Anne Smith''s date of birth March 21, 1881 Anne Smith''s date of birth March 21, 1881 4/7/2011 2:51:00 PM


Baileygc23 has done some excellent detective work, for which we all owe him a

debt of thanks. Both the State of Ohio death certificate AND her obituary in the

Akron Beacon Journal say that Anne Smith was born on March 21, 1881 and died on

June 1, 1949. (She died in the morning on June 1st, and her death notice was

front page news in that evening's edition of the Akron Beacon Journal.)



=======================================

PHOTOS OF THE NEWSPAPER OBITUARY AND THE DEATH CERTIFICATE:



Go to http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html and go about two-thirds of the way down

the page, to the section entitled "More on early Akron AA," with a photo of

Sister Ignatia playing the organ in the St. Thomas Hospital chapel, and a photo

of a Renner's Beer wagon. The Anne Smith material is at the end of that section:



Anne Smith's Ohio death certificate and Akron Beacon Journal newspaper obituary,

at http://hindsfoot.org/annesmt2.html



Also Anne Smith's Journal: copy of the text,

at http://hindsfoot.org/annesmth.html

=======================================



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011

To: Ask A Librarian - ES

Subject: Anne Smith



Anne Smith, nee Ripley, was the wife of AA's Dr Robert Smith. Her date of death

was June 1, 1949.



There is some confusion over her date of birth. We have two different dates, the

third and the twenty first.



If you have the information on her date of birth from her death notice or obit,

and can list your source, I would appreciate it and would post it on a history

site on the subject.



Regards, George C. Bailey

301 972 0992

______________________________



In a message dated 4/4/2011 8:12:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

SPECCOLLECTIONS@akronlibrary.org writes:



Mr. Bailey,



I checked two sources: a transcription of Anne Smith's State of Ohio death

certificate, available online through

https://www.familysearch.org/

and her obituary, which appeared in the Akron Beacon Journal on June 1, 1949 on

p. 1 (she had died in the morning and the paper was delivered in the evening).

Both these sources state her date of birth as March 21, 1881.



If you need copies of these, let me know. Our fee would be $1.10 and I can send

them through regular mail or as digital images through email.



Thank you,

Jane Gramlich

Librarian, Special Collections

Akron-Summit County Public Library

60 South High Street, Akron, Ohio 44326

(330) 643-9030

speccollections@akronlibrary.org

(speccollections at akronlibrary.org)



______________________________



The one other place to check would be to go to the Illinois place where she was

born and see if there is a birth certificate there. I think it is Oak Park

adjacent to Chicago.



George


0 -1 0 0
7293 A from near Maldon, England,
How AA got started in the U.K. How AA got started in the U.K. 4/6/2011 6:09:00 AM


Greetings all, I found these 2002 messages following a search for 'Lincoln

Williams'.



I was prompted to make a search of his name, following a stumbling across a book

by said Dr Lincoln Williams called "TO EACH HIS MEMORIES (A PSYCHIATRIST LOOKS

BACK ON HIS TREATMENT OF ALCOHOLICS" copyright LINCOLN WILLIAMS, 1970, made and

printed privately for the author by Regency Press LONDON and NEW YORK.



The jacket cover blurb mentions his other publication, "Tomorrow Will Be Sober"

in 1960.



No doubt these are familiar to AA UK history aficionados, but just in case not,

I give this info.



I came across this book in my parents' possessions, which one or other seems to

have purchased second-hand for £1.55 sterling, judging by a pencil mark on the

inside cover. The original price from the fly-leaf (that is, when the book was

new) was 30 shillings, which would be £1.50 in the present decimal currency (the

U.K. shifted from pounds-shillings-pence to the decimal system in February

1971).



Anyway, I have just got to the section where he mentions his first contact with

A.A. in chapter XXII, page 81 after he sailed on the famous ocean liner the

Mauretania in September 1947 to investigate having met Bob, Chris and Norman in

London after replying to an advert in The Financial Times.



I am a little surprised there is only one reference to Lincoln Williams on the

site but at least there is now one other.



Are his books well known amongst the AA history students?



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"Fiona" <fionadodd@...> Nancy Olson wrote:

>

> Hi, Buffs:

>

> Our wonderful friend in England, Max C. has sent me some information on AA in

the UK. I find it fascinating and hope you will too.

>

> Nancy

>

> Max writes:

>

> For the sake of brevity and clarity, this takes the form of a skeleton

chronology; something that may be fleshed out more fully according to interest

and contributions from other members. I am particularly interested in any

recollections USA members may have about their attendance at UK meetings.

>

> As you know, I am new to AA history, apart from my own of course, but it is

entirely possible now to delve in depth into archive material, which I hope to

be able to do eventually: This is just a timely offering drawn from sources

immediately to hand, without further research. So here goes:

>

> 1946 JULY

> The earliest official record appears to be a letter to the N.Y. central office

from Dorothy HE, an American who had been living in London for an unspecified

period. She gave as her replacement contact for London the name of Chris B. He

apparently was 12-stepped by Albert T, that friendly Fifth Avenue tailor who was

so helpful to Bill W, and of course to AA as a whole. Conor P met Richard P in

Ireland at this time.

>

> 1947 - MARCH

> Grace O, an American AA and her (non-AA) husband Fulton were on a visit to

London. She was armed with a contact list provided by GSO N.Y., which included

the Chris B mentioned above. There were also to be found in London at that date:

Bob B, a Canadian who got sober in N.Y. some 19 months previously; a US

serviceman Vernon W, a founder member of AA in Bermuda; and Norman R-W, an

Englishman who 'wanted to want to get sober'.

>

> Grace O convened a meeting at the Dorchester Hotel, Park Lane, which was held

in her room there. In addition to those mentioned above, she managed to pull in

Patricia G, an AA from California who she had met on the ship coming over; an

American stunt driver, Flash W, and an Irish airman, Tony (Pat) F.

>

> The meeting went ahead and marks the beginning of AA proper in England. Bob B,

known after as 'Canadian' Bob, became its Secretary.

>

> I shall refer later to the difficulty experienced by the fledgling group in

placing advertising for potential membership.

>

> Later in 1947, the journal of the British Medical Association, "The Lancet",

mentioned AA in an article and Dr. Lincoln Williams, who had laboured long in

the field of alcoholism, with little success, took a strong supportive interest

in AA from then on. I shall refer to this later.

>

> 1948 - JANUARY

> Lottie T joined the London group as the first woman newcomer. She became >

Secretary later that year when Canadian Bob went to work in N. Rhodesia on a

contract.

>

> Bill H, who was "An English Greengrocer" in early editions of the BB, was

12-stepped by Canadian Bob. Bill H set up the first AA telephone service at his

office.

>

> 1948 -- AUGUST: Marty M is guest speaker at a "large open meeting" and

"performed a miracle" on her visit to London, according to Lottie T.

>

> Vernon W, the US serviceman, registered an objection regarding meeting format

concerning the Lord's Prayer and passing the hat at open meetings. I shall refer

to this later.

>

> NOVEMBER: First meeting of the Manchester group. British AA membership hits

100.

>

> 1949 - JANUARY

> Membership had risen to 120

>

> MAY

> Lottie T has serious slip. Bill W declines invitation to visit London as "the

time for such a trip is still early", but expressed his delight with "the way

things are going, on your tight little island."

>

> Edinburgh First and Glasgow Central groups officially established, after

encouragement by Marty M.

>

> First Liverpool group established.

>

> 1950 - JUNE

> Bill W and Lois, accompanied by Agnes F, commence their tour of English, Irish

and Scottish groups, staying in London at Brown's Hotel, Mayfair. More about

this later.

>

> Bill W was able to resolve the long standing problem of non-availability of AA

literature caused by currency exchange control and customs regulations.

>

> 1951 - APRIL

> First Welsh group meets in Cardiff, among those present was Sackville from

Dublin, famous for (among other things) this epigram : "AA members are like

paratroopers jumping from the aircraft. The 12 Steps are the parachute. It's

suggested you pull the rip-cord, but it's entirely optional."

>

> London service office established in Chelsea, serving UK and Ireland.

>

> 1953

> First "Blue Bonnets" convention held at Dumfries.

>

> 1955

> London telephone service consolidated at Chelsea office UK membership

estimated to be 5000

>

> 1956

> First UK AA convention held at Cheltenham

>

> 1957

> Inaugural meeting of the GSB of Alcoholics Anonymous (Great Britain and

Ireland) Limited

>

> 1958

> Visit to London by Hank, General Secretary of AA N.Y. office, whose advice on

legacies led to an Act of Parliament enabling AA, a registered charity, to

refuse all legacies.

>

> 1960

> The Rowntree Trust issue a brochure on alcoholism to 23,000 doctors; this

included a short piece about AA.

>

> The Joint Committee of the British Medical Association and the Magistrates'

Association meet with two members of the AA UK GSB.

>

> 1962

> Government Department of Health recognised alcoholism as a disease.

>

> 1966 - OCTOBER

> First General Service Conference of AA UK held in Manchester

> AA UK 21st Birthday party at Grosvenor House, Park Lane, London

>

> 1969

> First World Service meeting in N.Y.

>

> 1971 - JANUARY

> Bill W died. Heavy press coverage in UK

>

> General Service Conference reports that 40 AA groups had been established

within prisons 1971

>

> First European Convention of AA meets in UK

>

> 1972

> Second World Service meeting in N.Y. adopts London as 1974 venue

> Only 10 penal establishments without AA contact in UK

>

> 1974

> Republic of Ireland sets up own service board, separates from GSB AA UK

> London hosts third World Service meeting.

> Marie O appointed as office manager at Chelsea, runs first 'professional'

telephone service.

>

> 1977

> Meetings held for first time with the Confederation of British Industry, the

Trades Union Congress and the Government Department of Health and Social

Security, leading to the publication of the Public Information workbook in 1980.

>

> 1978

> World Service Meeting, Helsinki, Finland, establishes European Information

Centre at GSO London

>

> 1983

> Establishment of 15th (English Speaking) European Region, mainly for American

servicemen.

>

> 1986

> GSO moved to York, leaving only London Region telephone service in Chelsea.

>

> 1988

> Marie retired, replaced by Maria as manager of London Region telephone office,

Chelsea

>

> 1997

> AA UK 50th Anniversary

>

> 1999

> Chelsea telephone office moved to N. London Maria retired

> John H took over as manager with wider brief

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





> That is a bare bones outline which I hope will meet the immediate need.

>

> There are many apparent gaps, within which the small platoons of AA and the

unsung hero(ine)s are still doing their stuff, anonymously, if not necessarily

quietly.

>

> As Bill W writes in AA Comes of Age, "in London and Liverpool we met many very

anonymous Englishmen". Anecdotal evidence suggests that one Liverpool group was

so well hidden away that they could not be found and Bill never did get to the

meeting. I have not yet read 'Lois Remembers' and wonder if she had anything to

say about the trip.

>

> In England, we do not have circuit Speakers or prominent AA personality

figures, generally speaking, just AAs who include, of course, many titled

people, sporting and entertainment 'stars' and the like, who for the most part

retain a low profile within AA, and anonymity outside AA, whilst making their

valuable contribution to the Fellowship.

>

> It seems very clear that Marty M and Bill W, on their respective visits, were

able to open the minds of the UK Pioneers to a fuller understanding of what AA

is all about: similarly GSO N.Y. went to 'any lengths' to sponsor UK people

appropriately in the service function.

>

> Of the many things we AAs seem to have in common outside the alcoholism is a

certain propensity to ask ourselves at many junctures: "what the hell's (been)

going on here?". I certainly do. We can only clear the ground a little. I will

attempt to do that with the second part of this "potted history", where

questions left hanging, such as Brown's Hotel and the Oxford Groups, English

anonymity, the National Health Service and the psycho- versus bio- genic

adversarial debate on alcoholism, which seems to contrive to dynamite the bridge

of spirituality: the foundation precept of AA.

>

> Some of this may be speculative or anecdotal, and could border on opinion; so

I shall submit it to you first for editing, Nancy, if you do not mind, because I

would not wish, unwittingly, to "engage in any controversy": indeed there is no

useful purpose in that, bearing in mind the bridges AA has built over the years,

(some of which are listed above) between religion, medicine and psychiatry.

Those bridges seem to me to have modified much prejudice and ignorance about

alcoholism, principally by adopting an attitude of open-mindedness and taking

action informed by experience, as with our sobriety, odaat.

>

> Yours in fellowship, Max C.


0 -1 0 0
7294 Robert Stonebraker
New corrected version of the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 New corrected version of the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 4/2/2011 9:14:00 PM


I recently published to the web a book titled, "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study

of Synchronic Events Between Years 1926 and 1935 which Culminated in the Birth

of Alcoholics Anonymous."



Among the many comments I received were those pointing to mistakes in grammar

and punctuation.



But fortunately, a kind lady editor, Nancy K. from California, donated her time

and expertise to correcting my many errors.



Consequently, I am now posting this new improved version.



http://www.aamuncie.org/files/Pre_AA_History_Book_2011.pdf



My apologies for being a better high school whiskey drinker than English

student!



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
7295 Fiona Dodd
Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA 4/7/2011 5:56:00 PM


Reflection for the annual memorial Mass for Sr. Ignatia Gavin, CSA



St. Patrick's Church, Cleveland, OH, April 2, 2011 4th Sunday of Lent



Darkness and Light, Blindness and Sight, - these images accompany all of us on

our journey of life and are the themes of the readings for this 4th Sunday of

Lent.



So, too, are they part of the life of Sr. Ignatia Gavin, who, as a child of 7,

on this very day in 1896, one hundred and fifteen years ago, left Ireland with

her parents and brother and journeyed to America.



Certainly for this audience, the life and influence of Sr. Ignatia are well

known not only as you've made your own journeys through darkness to light, from

blindness to sight in the AA fellowship but because you have honored her life by

this annual Mass since her death in 1966.



So, I'd like to reflect a bit about her spirituality in the light of today's

readings. The three readings and the psalm beautifully illuminate aspects of

Ignatia's deep faith and trust in the providence of her God and of the spiritual

motivation for her life of service.



"Not as humans see does God see - because humans only see appearances, but the

Lord looks into the heart" say God to Samuel in the first reading.



Ignatia was always a frail, tiny person, who struggled with some kind of a

breakdown in her early years in religious life and was aware of her personal

weaknesses. She, herself, said "had someone told me at the crossroads of life

that I'd spend my days caring for alcoholics, I'd have wilted, but God, in His

Divine Providence works in mysterious ways. He can use very weak and apparently

inefficient instruments to accomplish his purposes."



But Ignatia, believing that about herself, used that self-knowledge, and looked

into the heart of the alcoholics she felt privileged to know and help. She was

compassionate and concerned for all, generous in her help and support of the AAs

and their families, tough when she was dealing with the recalcitrant patient at

St. Thomas Hospital or Rosary Hall, persuasive and single-minded when she was

trying to get money from hospital administration or AAs for what she knew was

needed for the program, yet humble and unassuming when she was praised. And if

there are any old timers here who receiving a copy of "The Following of Christ"

from her, you know she always wrote, "pray for me." on the inside cover.



The Psalmist says "Even though I walk in the dark valley, I fear no evil; for

You are at my side with your rod and staff that give me courage."



Ignatia's journey was one of strong belief that God would accompany her and

give courage in whatever she was asked to do. Had Ignatia not worn herself down

in multiple demands of music teaching, she would never have found herself at

St. Thomas Hospital with a easier desk job in the admitting office, where one

day Dr. Bob came and asked for a bed for an alcoholic, admitted under the

diagnosis of "acute gastritis." As she later said of what became the historic

event, "it was really very simple, there was someone with a need and I was able

to find a bed."



"You were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord- Live as children of

light for light produces every kind of goodness and righteous and truth." says

St. Paul to the Ephesians.



Sr. Ignatia kept up a voluminous correspondence with many of the men and women

who went through the program. Her oft-repeated advice was simple, sincere and

reflected what she herself lived and what she had learned from the AAs over

time. For example, in a letter she wrote in 1954, to one of our sisters, she

said "Live just for today. Yesterday has gone into Eternity, trust it to God's

infinite mercy. Leave tomorrow in the care of God's loving Providence as I'm

sure Mother Mary did and in parenthesis she wrote "this is AA philosophy." But

the wording was almost identical whether she wrote to an AA priest or to his

religious superior, to a corporate leader leaving Rosary Hall , to a young man,

ordered for treatment after a car accident or a woman going back to her family.



The Gospel recounts the moving story of the man born blind, who was given the

gift of sight by Jesus. Amid all the wrangling about whether the man was really

blind from birth, whether his physical ailment was indicative of his sin,

whether Jesus was a sinner, the man was single-minded in recounting his

experience - "I was blind, but now I see," and this man healed me.



Today's Gospel shows Jesus challenging and changing the beliefs of His times

which thought that any physical disability was a direct result of sin. Not so

different from what Bill W., Dr. Bob and Ignatia and all those who followed

them understood - that alcoholism is a disease .



In the 10th anniversary of Rosary Hall in 1962, Ignatia spoke again about trying

to live the principle of AA herself- "Living One Day at a Time," trusting to

God's mercy and providence., especially as she said "when I get as most of the

patients, people who are far away from God. They are fearful to think about

Him. They feel He is too demanding, but how wonderfully kind He is when they

turn to Him. That is really, as I should say, the payoff in this work- to see

when they get that peace of soul, if they open up their mind and heart and throw

off the garbage, as we call it, and let God's grace penetrate. Their lives are

so different they can all tell you that." Her deep spirituality enabled Ignatia

to help people see the beauty of God in their lives after many years of

darkness.



Though people have made Ignatia larger than life, as an AA friend in Ignatia's

own County Mayo, Ireland said to me, " she carried a simple but powerful message

to all of us, she gave us hope when we didn't have any and that hope and her

humility touches us to this day."



Ignatia, who now enjoys the eternal light, would say to you, as she often

concluded her talks, "God bless everyone of you, my own alcoholics, whom I've

had the privilege and pleasure of working with and their immediate relatives."



Sr. Mary Denis Maher, CSA


0 -1 0 0
7296 calistogababe
Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook 3/27/2011 12:01:00 PM


From Suzanne T.



The following information seemed to be relevant to answering my question about

the 3 p's. There was a book called This Believing World by Lewis Browne, which I

heard about on a history of AA share by Jim Burwell:

jim-b-bbhistory1957.mp3 at xa.speakers.org



http://www.aabibliography.com/believingworldbrown.html

Jim Burwell writes in his early 1940s history of alcoholics anonymous: It is my

opinion that a great deal of Bill's traditions came from the fourth book, Lewis

Browne's This Believing World. From this book, I believe Bill attained a

remarkable perception of possible future pitfalls for groups of our kind for it

clearly shows that the major failures of religions and cults in the past have

been due to one of three things: Too much organization, too much politics, and

too much money or power.



Charles Knapp Writes:



Oh yes Bill knew of this book all right. He read almost everything on the

subject of spiritual experiences. This Believing World by Lewis Browne, and The

God Who Speaks by B.H. Streeter are just 2 other books on the subject he read.



I can't find the website, but both of Browne's books were listed in Bill W.'s

library and Dick B. lists This Believing World to be part of Dr. Bob and Anne's

library and a book they loaned out.

http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=3092&C=2623

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aapeople.html



________________________________________



From Suzanne T.



But then I found out about Victor Kitchen's Oxford Group book "I Was a Pagan"

along with the link to the article called "The Names of God: How to find a God

of our understanding" at

http://hindsfoot.org/namegod.html



________________________________________





In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, dillonr9@... wrote:

>

> Victor Kitchen, in his book, I WAS A PAGAN (1934) cites 5 P's he was a pagan

to: power, possession, position, pleasure and Applause. Perhaps this book was

in Bill's mind. He may have read this book while a member of the Oxford Group

since its author was also a member of the Oxford Group. Peace.



- - - -



> From GC the moderator:

>

> Vic Kitchen and Bill Wilson both joined the Oxford Group in New York City at

about the same time, and were friends. Kitchen gives an excellent picture of

what the Oxford Group looked like (and how it functioned and what it taught) in

the New York City area at the time Bill Wilson was active in the group.

>

> For the text of I Was a Pagan, see www.stepstudy.org and for a description of

what the book taught, see

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html

>

> The Five P's passage is at the beginning of Chapter 1. I quote the opening of

that chapter here:

>

> CHAPTER I

> THIS BUSINESS OF CHASING FALSE GODS

> PAGANISM

>

> At twenty, life looked like a high adventure -- intriguing and indecorous. At

thirty, it looked like a high endeavor -- socially and economically important.

By forty, however, I grew highly dubious. Life seemed to have lost flavor on

both counts. It was then that I met the Oxford Group. At this time, I think, I

would have described myself as "white, married and a Christian." Actually I was

somewhat tarnished and discolored, married in name only, and very much of a

pagan. A pagan is a man who spends his time chasing false gods. And I had spent

forty years of my time in chasing "Pleasure," Possessions," "Power," "Position"

and "Applause." I now call these pagan goals my unfortunate five "P's."



Thanks all,



In the Fellowship of the Spirit,

Suzanne



________________________________________





Original Message from: "calistogababe" > <suzthurston@...>

Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011

Subject: Name of book/author on 3 p's: prestige, power and pocketbook



There is a book, I have heard, that Bill W. read and used when he was writing

the traditions. It was a comparative religion study that identified the 3

principles that were crucial for a successful spiritual fellowship. So the 3

p's to be careful of are: prestige, power and pocketbook.



Does anyone know the name of that book or the author?



Many thanks,

Suzanne T.


0 -1 0 0
7297 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
RE: The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature The modern definition of alcoholism used in AAWS literature 3/31/2011 12:35:00 PM


Wikipedia: "The existence of alcoholism as a disease is accepted by some within

the medical and scientific communities although critics exist..." That phrase

"although critics exist" - implying public controversy - plunges AA into

Tradition Ten territory. One such critic, Jeffrey Schaler (psychologist and

consultant in addiction and social policy at Silver Spring, Maryland), in his

book "Addiction is a choice" (Open Court, 2000), wrote, "Biomedical and

psychosocial scientists range across both sides of the (disease) controversy

(Filmore and Sigvardsson 1988) ... My impression is that the disease model is

steadily losing ground..."

John Crossan discusses the difference between illness and disease in "Jesus: a

revolutionary biography" (Harper Collins 1995). He wrote: "Medical anthropology

or comparative ethnomedicine has proposed a basic distinction between curing a

disease and healing an illness." He quotes Leon Eisenberg: "Patients suffer

illnesses; physicians treat diseases. Illnesses are experiences of disvalued

changes in states of being and in social functions; diseases in the scientific

paradigm of modern medicine are abnormalities in the structure and function of

bodily organs and systems... Our success in dealing with certain disease

problems breeds then ideological error that a technical fix is the potential

solution to all ... It is essential to enquire how we can expand our horizons to

incorporate an understanding of illness as a psychological event. Indeed, our

worship of restricted and incomplete disease models can be viewed as a kind of

ritual or magical practice in itself." Crossan also refers to Arthur Kleinman:

"The key axiom in medical anthropology is a dichotomy between two aspects of

sickness: disease and illness. Disease refers to a a malfunctioning of

biological and/or psychological processes, while the term illness refers to a

psychosocial experience and meaning of perceived disease." Crossan adds: "A

disease is, to put it bluntly, between me and my doctor, and a bug ... Disease

sees a problem unrealistically, on a minimal level; illness realistically on a

wider level ... A cure for a disease is absolutely desirable, but in its absence

we can still heal the illness by refusing to ostracise those who have it, by

empathising with their anguish and by enveloping their sufferings with both our

respect and love..." (Emphasis added). I believe AA was wise to describe

alcoholism as an illness in the Big Book, ("An illness of this sort - and we

have come to believe it an illness ..." - chapter two, There is a solution)

rather than using the more limiting word disease.

In in his March 1958 Grapevine article "On the alcoholism front" Bill W. wrote,

"The American Medical Association has officially declared alcoholism to be a

chronic illness ... The World Health organisation is carrying (all this) good

news around the world ..." However, "Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious

organisation. Neither does it AA take any particular medical point of view,

though we cooperate widely with the men (sic) of medicine as well as with the

men of religion..." (Foreword, Alcoholics Anonymous, second edition - emphasis

added).

In a letter to me dated 18 October 2000 Bill A., of GSO, New York, wrote: "Our

role as a society of recovered alcoholics helping others does not endow us with

any medical or scientific stature. Therefore the issue of a medical

determination of a disease is something on which AA could have no position. Our

Traditions are clear in reminding us not to be diverted from our primary purpose

as a Fellowship, and as members of that Fellowship we should respect the

limitations we have. Doctor Silkworth's view of alcoholism is still contained in

the basic text Alcoholics Anonymous, though as a separate and distinct Foreword.

It may lack a certain medical credence these days, though the ideas still

resonate with many AA's and newcomers."

Seems to me that by carrying the definition of alcoholism quoted by Dennis M.,

the pamphlet "AA as a resource for the healthcare professional" comes perilously

adjacent to endorsing the American Society of Addiction Medicine and the

National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, thus setting AA on a

collision course with Traditions Six and Ten.



Laurie A.


0 -1 0 0
7298 corafinch
Re: Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook Name of book/author on 3 p''s: prestige, power and pocketbook 4/8/2011 8:36:00 AM


Suzanne, I too thought of the Lewis Browne book when I read your post. I have a

copy, so I did a quick scan of the relevant sections and didn't find anything

similar to the "3 P's."



Probably the Victor Kitchen book was the closest source, but expressions of that

sort appeared in other places as well. I think the common source may have been

the James Winan book, Public Speaking, which was popular in the early-to-mid

20th century. Winan's list of internal motivators (hooks for speakers to keep

the audience listening) was similar to Kitchen's list of his own pre-conversion

motivators. They were sometimes boiled down to "property, prestige, power"

although the original list was longer.


0 -1 0 0
7299 john wikelius
Re: Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate Modern data also shows 50% AA success rate 3/30/2011 4:02:00 PM


From John Wikelius, Les Cole, and Patrick Murphy



- - - -



From: john wikelius <justjohn1431946@yahoo.com>

(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)



It is written in my Big Book Page 30, "We alcoholics are men and women who have

lost the ability to control our drinking.



- - - -



From: LES COLE <elsietwo@msn.com>

(elsietwo at msn.com)



Hi All:



Back in 1994 when I started doing research about AA, I gradually defined a

simple definition as to the difference between "a drunk" and "an alcoholic" for

my own thinking. This does not have a source for others to look up. It is only

reasoned as a pragmatist...such as Bill was.



A "drunk" is a person who perpetually uses alcohol (in some form) to a

debilitating degree, and doesn't choose (can't) to do anything about it.



An "alcoholic" is a similar person who has the same type of difficulties with

alcohol, but takes action to change the addiction, behaviorally. Thus, the use

of the word "recovering".



Les C

Colorado Springs, Colorado



- - - -



From: Patrick Murphy <paddymur@yahoo.com>

(paddymur at yahoo.com)



All this hoopla about AA's success rate ... from what I've observed over the

years (43) is that AA has 100% success. Every single person I've encountered who

has 'worked the Steps' has stayed sober. Every one who has ever entered our AA

doors and 'did as suggested' has stayed sober. Ah yes, we have a large number of

people who say 'I ain't doin' that' and 'I want the easier softer way' and they

get eliminated. So, shouldn't they try to figure out why there's such a large

group that won't surrender and quit saying AA has a low success rate?



--Pat Murphy


0 -1 0 0
7300 joe
Re: Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent Denmark: AA groups and clubs paying rent 4/1/2011 11:07:00 PM


Brent,



I served as a delegate to the General Service Conference of AA in UK. I chaired

a committee who had the challenge of considering a long standing law of the

land, a tax law specifically. In the UK, if a tax payer chooses to make a

contribution to a registered charity, the government matches the contribution so

long as the tax payer files the proper forms to allow the government to do so.

In the UK, their GSO is such a registered charity, just as in the USA it is

considered a tax-exempt, nonprofit corporation or association under section 501c

of the IRS code.



Therefore, we had the task of considering whether that was within the spirit of

the AA Traditions and recommend back to the General Service Conference body. It

was one of the toughest questions I have experienced. I had to lead an unbiased

discussion, but had strong opinions of my own.



At the end, the conference body accepted that the law of the land should be

followed and individuals were free to donate in this manner if they wished or to

simply choose to donate without completing the proper forms to alert the

government of the donation.



There are several other experiences closer to Denmark that could be sought from

local autonomous AA service bodies. The European Service Meeting provides a

venue for GSO's in your area to get together and share ideas also.



Good luck and God bless.


0 -1 0 0
7301 Jenny or Laurie Andrews
Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain AA groups paying rent in Great Britain 3/31/2011 6:59:00 AM


The relevant paragraph (five) in the Act reads: "(1) If and to the extent that

the Company (GSB AA GB) disclaims the property comprised in a relevant

disposition then (unless a contrary intention is expressed in the will, deed or

other document) such disposition shall take effect - (a) (so long as the Council

[the Alcohol Education and Research Council established by the 1981 Act] is in

existence and is administering the Fund [the Alcohol Education and Research

Fund] as a gift to the Council to form part of the Fund; or (b) (if the Council

shall be dissolved or shall have ceased to administer the Fund) as a gift to a

charity appointed under subsection (2) below, (2) If the Council shall be

dissolved or shall cease to administer the Fund the Company (AA) may within six

months of the dissolution or the cessation, as the case may be, appoint for the

purpose of subsection (1) (b) above, with the approval of the Charity

Commissioners, a charity having purposes similar to those of the Fund. (3) For

the purposes of this section a relevant disposition shall not be taken as

expressing a contrary intention by reason only that it does not (or may not)

evince a general charitable intention.

6. This Act extends to Scotland.



(From the Alcohol Education and Research Council [AERC] website): "The council's

main aims are to: generate and disseminate research-based evidence to inform and

influence policy and practice; develop the capacity of people and organisations

to address alcohol issues."



This is what Bill W wrote, in part, in an article headed "On the alcoholism

front" in the March 1958 issue of "Grapevine": "We believe that sound alcohol

education is a good thing ... We are glad of any kind of education that

accurately informs the public and changes its age-old attitude toward the drunk

... Now who is going to do all this education? Obviously, it is both a community

job and a job for specialists. Individually, we AA's can help, but AA as such

cannot, and should not, get directly into this field. Therefore, we must rely on

other agencies ..."



I take it AA was consulted while the Parliamentary Bill and Act were being

drafted, and it seems to me the chances are vanishingly small that AA would be

harmed by any subsequent association with the AERC; but let's cross that bridge

if and when we come to it!



____________________________________________





From: chief_roger@yahoo.com

Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011

Subject: Re: AA groups paying rent in Great Britain



With respect to message #7270 from Laurie Andrews

<jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7270



LAURIE SAID: In 1986 AA in Great Britain was forced to ask the UK Parliament to

pass an Act allowing the Fellowship to decline outside contributions. I've seen

a copy of the Act on the wall in the archives department at GSO, New York.

Copies are available from the British General Service Office at York (see AA

Great Britain website for contact details). The July 2007 issue of "Share"

magazine (the Great Britain equivalent of "Grapevine") carried this report ....



I have seen the text of this Act posted on the wall of the Great Britain GSO

Archives display in York, England. It is a powerful spiritual example of going

any lengths to adhere to our traditions. However, the solicitors (lawyers) on

both sides had a hand in it.



The law passed, in practice, could result in money donated to AA Grat Britain

not actually be returned to the family of the donor, but instead be sent to

another registered charity that does alcohol research (of a sort that AA may or

may not agree with -- research that we certainly do not endorse or oppose in any

way).



I am looking through my files to see if I can find a copy of how it is written,

but the large ornamental one that I saw was framed on the wall.



Roger W.


0 -1 0 0
7302 dani n
Anne Smith''s prayer Anne Smith''s prayer 3/30/2011 6:00:00 PM


I was listening to a speaker tape last night (Chris S. and Dave F.'s "big book

adventure") and they referred to a handout that of course I don't have, with a

list of prayers. The last one mentioned was a little-known prayer that they said

Anne wrote for Dr. Bob that they would say together each morning - from one AA

history book or another. Does anyone know what this is? A thorough Googling

didn't help me at all!



- Dani


0 -1 0 0
7303 Glenn Chesnut
Anne Smith''s prayer? Or Lois and Bill Wilson''s prayer? Anne Smith''s prayer? Or Lois and Bill Wilson''s prayer? 4/8/2011 3:38:00 PM


Dani,



Did the speakers say it was a prayer written by Anne Smith, and that she and Dr.

Bob recited it each morning? That doesn't sound quite right to me. In the

mornings at the Smith house, Anne would read that day's meditation from The

Upper Room, reading it aloud for her family and for all the alcoholics in the

Akron group who had dropped by her house for coffee before going to work.



There is a collection of some typical daily readings from The Upper Room at

http://hindsfoot.org/uprm1.html

also see their website at http://www.upperroom.org/



BILL AND LOIS WILSON'S PRAYER



What you are describing seems to be the prayer which Bill and Lois Wilson

recited together every morning. You can read it in Pass It On, on page 265, or

you can read it on the internet by going to



http://hindsfoot.org/spiritu.html



on AA spirituality, and going two thirds of the way down to the selection marked

"Prayers and readings for an A.A. funeral or memorial service." Clicking on that

will take you to:



http://hindsfoot.org/funeral1.html



About one third of the way down, you will find:



===================================

Bill & Lois's Prayer

(from Pass It On, page 265)



Oh Lord, we thank Thee that Thou art,

that we are from everlasting to everlasting.



Blessed be Thy holy name and all Thy benefactions to us

of light, of love, and of service.

May we find and do Thy will

in good strength, in good cheer today.



May Thy ever-present grace be discovered

by family and friends

-- those here and those beyond --

by our Societies throughout the world,

by men and women everywhere,

and among those who must lead

in these troubled times.



Oh Lord, we know Thee to be all wonder,

all beauty, all glory, all power, all love.

Indeed, Thou art everlasting love.



Accordingly, Thou has fashioned for us a destiny

passing through Thy many mansions,

ever in more discovery of Thee

and in no separation between ourselves.

===================================





Original message from: dani n <claritystone@gmail.com>

(claritystone@gmail.com)

Subject: Anne Smith's prayer



I was listening to a speaker tape last night (Chris S. and Dave F.'s "big book

adventure") and they referred to a handout that of course I don't have, with a

list of prayers. The last one mentioned was a little-known prayer that they said

Anne wrote for Dr. Bob that they would say together each morning - from one AA

history book or another. Does anyone know what this is? A thorough Googling

didn't help me at all!



- Dani


0 -1 0 0
7304 Mike Portz
1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/10/2011 2:25:00 AM


My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written)

edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page

28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol."



I believe this is the condition I was in when I arrived at A.A. It doesn't

matter to my recovery what someone with a degree in anything, who is not a

alcoholic nor addict, defines alcoholism. The doctors of all specialties were

never able to find any solution to putting this disease into remission. It seems

from reading about the history of alcoholism, that few really cared. How could

they if they hadn't lived it? Thank God for Dr. Silkworth! Although he was not

afflicted, he spent most of his life living with we who suffer. He truly cared.



With regards to the statement ".... My impression is that the disease model is

steadily losing ground ..." I think it is not really important what opinion a

man -- a man of what I consider limited experience, no first hand personal

experience of its tortures, and a highly speculative impression -- has of what

the medical world considers alcoholism.



It might be important to note that the word disease, as defined in the same

above-mentioned dictionary, is defined as, " any mental, moral or physical

disorder; malady: illness." This certainly describes exactly whatever disorder,

malady or illness I am afflicted with. I hope it works for you and any other

members of AAHISTORY.COM.


0 -1 0 0
7305 Byron Bateman
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/11/2011 6:07:00 AM


My 1937 New Popular Pocket Webster Dictionary Self-pronouncing has exactly the

same definitions.



Byron



- - - -



Original message #7304 from Mike Portz

<mportz2000@yahoo.com> (mportz2000 at yahoo.com)



My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was written)

edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office Dictionary" on page

28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by alcohol."


0 -1 0 0
7306 Chuck Parkhurst
RE: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/10/2011 2:55:00 PM


Why would the authors of the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism

REPEATEDLY refer to the condition we suffer from as an "illness" if they meant

"disease?" In many areas of our book, we see the authors repeatedly use

synonyms and similar phrases to make the same point over and over. However, when

the authors use this same device regarding the alcoholic illness, they do NOT

use disease and prefer a term like malady. I believe that the fact disease is

conspicuous by its absence in similar circumstances confirms that the authors

were specifically avoiding that term and for good reason.



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst



_________________________________________



Original message from: Mike Portz

Subject: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as

diseased condition



My copyright 1938 (I believe the year quite a bit of the Big Book was

written) edition of the "New Peerless Webster Home School and Office

Dictionary" on page 28, defines alcoholism as "a diseased condition produced by

alcohol."



It might be important to note that the word disease, as defined in the same

above-mentioned dictionary, is defined as, "any mental, moral or physical

disorder; malady: illness." This certainly describes exactly whatever disorder,

malady or illness I am afflicted with.



I believe this is the condition I was in when I arrived at A.A. It doesn't

matter to my recovery what someone with a degree in anything, who is not a

alcoholic nor addict, defines alcoholism. The doctors of all specialties were

never able to find any solution to putting this disease into remission. It seems

from reading about the history of alcoholism, that few really cared. How could

they if they hadn't lived it? Thank God for Dr. Silkworth! Although he was not

afflicted, he spent most of his life living with we who suffer. He truly cared.



With regards to the statement ".... My impression is that the disease model is

steadily losing ground ..." I think it is not really important what opinion a

man -- a man of what I consider limited experience, no first hand personal

experience of its tortures, and a highly speculative impression -- has of what

the medical world considers alcoholism.


0 -1 0 0
7307 jaxena77
Grapevine Play in Los Angeles Grapevine Play in Los Angeles 4/12/2011 4:30:00 PM


To Our Friends and Supporters in the AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group,



We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own

Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County

for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell

Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph,

Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in

Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the

researching and writing of this documentary style play.



Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only

audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to

anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON!



Forward this message to a friend -

http://oi.vresp.com/f2af/v4/send_to_friend.html?ch=0076d7232a&lid=TEST&ldh=TEST



In Love and Service,

Jackie B.



===============================================

FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS:

http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/

===============================================



IN OUR OWN WORDS:

PIONEERS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS



Performing for the first time in Los Angeles County!



A SPECIAL BENEFIT FOR ICYPAA 2011!

Saturday, June 25 at 8 pm

The Lincoln Middle School Theater

1501 California Ave, Santa Monica, CA



Played to standing room only audiences in San Antonio in 2010, In Our Own Words

brings to life the pages of the Big Book, The Grapevine and the recordings of

the pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous. Simply, and with great humor and depth,

the play retells the stories of our founders in New York, Akron, Cleveland and

Los Angeles. Going further into our history, In Our Own Words also shares the

lesser-known struggles of the pioneering members of special composition groups

in the fellowship, including the first women and young people in AA, as well as

early gay, lesbian, African-American and Latino members. Join men and women like

Marty Mann, Sybil Corwin, Cliff Walker, Barry

Leach, Joe McQuanny, and many more, on their search for a solution and

acceptance in the rooms. Their stories, and this play, are not to be missed.

Tickets available soon at www.icypaahost.org


0 -1 0 0
7308 jax760
Disease concept: Jellinek, Ernest Kurtz, William L. White Disease concept: Jellinek, Ernest Kurtz, William L. White 4/13/2011 10:47:00 AM


If I might suggest that some of the the best information I've read regarding the

"Disease Concept" -- yes that is what it is, a "concept" (and btw still not

universally accepted and still evolving) can better be understood by reading the

following references which provide some of the history of this debate. AA "as

such" never pushed the "disease" theory although the fellowship certainly framed

its belief as such and taught it to all newcomers, instead it was Marty Mann and

the NCEA along with the RCPA and Yale's Center for Alcohol Studies that really

brought the concept to its acceptance in society that it enjoys today.



========================================

JELLINEK:



The Disease Concept of Alcoholism – Jellinek; 1960

========================================

ERNEST KURTZ:



Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism

Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D.(google it)

========================================

WILLIAM L. WHITE:



A four-part series on the history and future of the addiction disease concept.

White, W. (2000)



1. Addiction as a Disease: Birth of a Concept. Counselor, 1(1):46-51, 73.



2. The Rebirth of the Disease Concept of Alcoholism in the 20th

Century.1(2):62-66.



3. Addiction Disease Concept: Advocates and Critics; White

Counselor, February 2001



4. A Disease Concept for the 21st Century, White

Counselor, April 2001

========================================


0 -1 0 0
7309 Jon Markle
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/12/2011 6:38:00 PM


From Jon Markle, Glenn Chesnut, James Bliss, and Jeanne Fisera (Jifgift)



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <jon.markle@mac.com>

(jon.markle at mac.com)



The authors of the "first 164 pages" DID use the word "disease." See page 64.

In addition, in my copy of the 3rd ed on page 187, there is a significant quote

in this story which makes it clear the original founders used that word. There

are other instances in the Big Book stories, but this is one of the more

significant ones, I think.



There is no doubt in my mind that the descriptions used in the Big Book, and the

words used, clearly indicate the authors believed in the "disease" model. A

disease that impacts the whole, entire body, consuming and insidiously infecting

every part.



It is why I believe that any approach to recovery ALSO must address every aspect

of the person, not just the act of stopping drinking.



Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling

Retired Therapist & SA Counseling

Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S

HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation

Raleigh, NC



- - - -



<glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



===========================

THE TERMS ACTUALLY USED IN THE BIG BOOK

===========================

Disease is in fact used only four times, but four significant times:



(page 64) As part of the explanation of how to do a Fourth Step: "Resentment is

the 'number one' offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From

it stem all forms of spiritual DISEASE, for we have been not only mentally and

physically ILL, we have been spiritually SICK. When the spiritual MALADY is

overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically." (Emphasis added by me.)



>> Reading this passage from page 64, it looks

>> to me like all four of these words were being

>> regarded in 1939 as synonyms by Bill Wilson

>> and the early AA members.



(pages 187-188) Bill W. and Dr. Bob talking to Bill Dotson, A.A. No. 3: "You are

an ALCOHOLIC .... you have a DISEASE, and it doesn't make any difference how

long you do without it, after a drink or two you'll end up just like you are

now." (Emphasis added by me.)



(page 191) Bill Wilson himself talking to Bill Dotson's wife Henrietta:

"Henrietta, the Lord has been so wonderful to me, curing me of this terrible

disease, that I just want to keep talking about it and telling people."



(page 191) Bill Dotson continues: "That sentence, 'The Lord has been so

wonderful to me, curing me of this terrible disease, that I just want to keep

telling people about it,' has been a sort of GOLDEN TEXT for the A.A. program

and for me." (Emphasis added by me.)

===========================

Sick, sick person, or sickness 19 times -- pages 18, 64, 67, 90, 92, 100, 101,

106, 107, 108, 115, 139, 140, 141, 147, 149, 153, 157, and 164.

===========================

Ill or illness 14 times -- pages 7, 18, 20, 30, 44, 92, 107, 108, 115, 118, 122,

139, 140, and 142.

===========================

The words ail or ailment are used 3 times -- pages 135, 139, 140.

===========================

Malady appears 6 times -- pages 23, 64, 92, 138, 139, and 165.

===========================



- - - -



From: James Bliss <james.bliss@comcast.net>

(james.bliss at comcast.net)



Well, to throw an additional dictionary into the discussion, and to

include the definitions of disease, illness and malady:



The Winston Simplified Dictionary

Intermediate Edition, 1928



alcoholism n. a diseased condition produced by the use of fermented or

distilled liquors.



disease n. disorder of mind or body; malady; illness; Disease is the

general term for any departure from a state of health; it frequently

suggests a more serious or long-continued state than either sickness or illness.

Illness and sickness mean practically the same thing; but

sickness sometimes has the additional meaning of nausea or vomiting.



illness n. 1. the condition of being sick; 2, a disease; sickness



malady n. a disease, exp. one deep-seated or lingering, mental or physical



Jim



- - - -



From: Jifgift@aol.com (Jifgift at aol.com)



The 1934 Webster Collegiate Dictionary says Alcoholism is a "diseased condition

of the system due to excessive use of alcoholic liquors".



Faith alone is insufficient. To be vital, faith must be accompanied by

self-sacrifice and unselfish, constructive action. BB p.63



jeanne fisera


0 -1 0 0
7310 Tom
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/12/2011 3:56:00 PM


From tomvlll and Tom Hickcox -- responding to the message posted by Chuck

Parkhurst



- - - -



From "Tom" <tomvlll@yahoo.com> (tomvlll at yahoo.com)



There exists no universally agreed upon, objective definition of the word

disease, thus it is open to the interpretation of anyone who chooses to define

it. The AMA, Webster's, the WHO etc. I agree with Chuck's take that the absence

of that term in the BB was not in any way incidental. Subsequent statements by

Wilson corroborate that.



- - - -



From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net>

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



I would invoke Rule 62 at this juncture:



> Message #7306 from "Chuck Parkhurst"

> (ineedpage63@cox.net) says

>

> Why would the authors of the most definitive

> book EVER written on alcoholism REPEATEDLY

> refer to the condition we suffer from as an

> "illness" if they meant "disease?" In many

> areas of our book, we see the authors

> repeatedly use synonyms and similar phrases

> to make the same point over and over.

> However, when the authors use this same

> device regarding the alcoholic illness,

> they do NOT use disease and prefer a term

> like malady. I believe that the fact disease

> is conspicuous by its absence in similar

> circumstances confirms that the authors

> were specifically avoiding that term and

> for good reason.





Tommy H in Baton Rouge


0 -1 0 0
7311 bsdds@comcast.net
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/12/2011 3:48:00 PM


From Bob Schultz "bsdds" and LaurenceHolbrook "hdmozart"



- - - -



From: bsdds@comcast.net (bsdds at comcast.net)



Many years ago, I was listening to a public service program concerning

epilepsy. One of the first thing the moderator commented on was the "disease" of

epilepsy. He went into a short but direct point of saying epilepsy was a

"condition" not a disease and told why. It made a lot of sense to me at the time

and still does. Again ... I got and what ever it is .... I don't take the first

drink because, in the past drinking put me in a condition of behaving badly ...

over and over and over and ......................



Bob Schultz

Charlottesville, Virginia



- - - -



From: "hdmozart" <email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at



LaurenceHolbrook.com)



I thought Bill W directly addressed this issue in the National Catholic Council

on Alcoholism and Related Drug Problems, Inc, "The Blue Book", Vol. XII, 1960,

New York, New York



A Synopsis of the Question-Answer Period FOLLOWING BILL W.'S TALK



AT THE NCCA SYMPOSIUM IN NEW YORK IN 1960



Father X.: Bill, I noticed that in your talk you did not use the word `disease.'

Did you intend to make any kind of distinction between disease and sickness?



Bill W: We AAs have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically

speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as

heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments or combinations of

them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore, we did not wish to

get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease

entity. Hence, we have always called it an illness or a malady — a far safer

term for us to use.


0 -1 0 0
7312 pamelafro88
Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings 4/15/2011 4:01:00 AM


A service sponsee asked me whether there is any literature relating to proxy or

absentee voting at a group conscience meeting. While I have never encountered

this, I said I would ask whether there is any precedence or service material

relating to this. My thoughts are that unless a person is in attendance they

cannot be fully informed and therefore shouldn't cast a vote - and for other

service positions, an alternate covers for unavaiodable absences. Any ideas?


0 -1 0 0
7313 intuited
Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #2 Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #2 4/13/2011 6:53:00 PM


Glenn, thanks for your thoughts on atheism and agnosticism. After rereading

your book on "The Higher Power of the 12 Step Program"

http://hindsfoot.org/kHP1.html and other literature, I have become acutely aware

of the many definitions of agnostics and atheists. Throughout the ages

agnostics seem to have been those who balked at the current religious thought.

Quakers were even called agnostics. I have decided these terms are not

definable, especially in light of their historical use. What seems to me to be

more accurate is the use of the term gnostic -- direct knowing of the sacred.

This seems much more in keeping with AA spirituality, whether utilizing the

words "spirit in the rooms" on through to 11th step conscious contact. Jung was

intrigued with gnostics as well.



On Mar 16, 2011, at 2:33 PM, Glenn Chesnut wrote:



In a preceding message, Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> wrote: "I recently

reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which featured Agnostics in AA.

Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience. As I read the stories I

began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly being used as a code word

to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of references to a very vital

spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious beliefs interconnected with

meditation or energy. They were very moving stories and not what I would expect

of someone who was without certainty. The Conference Committee on Literature is

in the process of publishing a pamphlet 'which focuses on spirituality that

includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in

Alcoholics Anonymous.' This 61st Conference is entertaining a request to

reconsider this action. I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse

of these terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian'

spirituality?"



The Greek prefix a- means no, not, un-



>>The term "theist" refers to someone who believes that God (Theos) exists.



>>The term "a-theist" therefore refers to someone who believes that there is no

God, that God (Theos) does not exist.



>>Ginosko in ancient Greek meant "I know," so an "a-gnostic" is (literally)

someone caught in a state of "un-knowing."



- - - -



THE RISE OF WESTERN ATHEISM IN THE 1840'S



In a book I just wrote, I talk on pp. 123-124 about the Rise of Modern Atheism

in the 1840's. See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality



paperback:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywo\

rds=chesnut+god+and+spirituality&x=13&y=15


kindle:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Spirituality-Philosophical-Essays-ebook/dp/B0046ZRN82/\

ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300217940&sr=1-1-catcorr




TRADITIONAL THEISTS: Some people in the western world rejected these new

atheistic ideas completely, and kept on trying to defend the old conceptualities

of the ancient and medieval worlds: the Bible was literally true, the church

authorities were infallible, people walked on water and rose from the dead, and

so on.



THE NEW ATHEISTS (1840 and afterwards): Other people in the western world

embraced these new atheistic ideas enthusiastically. A new world of science --

where the scientists were rapidly gaining infallible truth and explaining all

things -- was going to lead the human race out of the darkness of the past.

There would no longer be any uncontrollable natural phenomena killing people

(like earthquakes and tsunamis?), everyone in the world would be given excellent

health care (through universal health care) so that no one would ever get sick

and die any longer, our machines (oil drilling rigs and nuclear power plants)

would never malfunction and kill people, and so on.



"AGNOSTICS": But there were many people caught in the middle: they had been

brought up with traditional religious beliefs and did not want to let go of

them, and yet they had no real answers to all the attacks that the atheists were

making on their most cherished articles of faith. And there were others who had

tired of the whole debate, and insisted that they weren't going to believe

anything at all, past this point, without some kind of scientific evidence to

support it.



- - - -



THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON AGNOSTICISM



See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism



Thomas Henry Huxley gave a speech at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in

1876, in which he coined to word "agnostic" (not-knowing, un-knowing,

non-knowing) to describe his philosophy, which was a rejection of ALL claims of

spiritual or mystical knowledge. "Huxley identified agnosticism not as a creed

but rather as a method of skeptical, evidence-based inquiry."



But in the many years that followed, the word "agnostic" got adapted to describe

all sorts of different approaches to religion. The Wikipedia article describes

some of these varieties:



===========================================

*Agnostic atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have

belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to

know that a deity does not exist.



*Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of

any deity, but still believe in such an existence.



*Apathetic or Pragmatic agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either

the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist

appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the

question is largely academic.



*Ignosticism: The view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward

before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed.

If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist

view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable.

A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and

agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and

agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be

argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or

a nontheist until a sufficient definition of theism is put forth.



*Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "permanent

agnosticism"): The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a

deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of

our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another

subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a

deity exists or not, and neither can you."



*Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal

agnosticism"): The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is

currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold

judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't

know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence

we can find something out."

===========================================



As far as I can tell, there are very few AA members who genuinely understand

what the term "agnostic" originally meant, that is, what the word meant between

1876 and 1939. Maybe a handful, but not many. And as far as I can see, the term

"agnostic" has now come to mean so many different things, that it hardly has any

real meaning left at all.



So Amelia, I think that you are probably correct when you say that, at New York

AA headquarters, the term AGNOSTIC is "being used as a code word to mean

non-Christian," that is, as a "way to talk about 'other than Christian'

spirituality."



But for myself, I think that using the word "agnostic" in this way is a misuse

of terms, because the chapter in the Big Book called "We Agnostics" was an

attempt to deal with the skeptical position which Thomas Henry Huxley put

forward in 1876. If we want a pamphlet talking about Hindu, Buddhist, New Age,

Native American spirituality, worship of the Triple Goddess, wicca, modern

California gnostic and kabbalistic groups, and other things of that sort, that

they should have titled it something different, like perhaps "Varieties of AA

Spirituality." And I also think that some of the hostility toward the pamphlet

(among a lot of AA members) might lessen to a degree if it were retitled in that

fashion. But that's just my two cents worth.

__________________________________________



Original message from Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at

earthlink.net)



Glenn .... I recently reviewed the April 2009 issue of the AAGrapevine which

featured Agnostics in AA. Each story spoke of a definite spiritual experience.



As I read the stories I began to think that the term agnostic was more aptly

being used as a code word to mean non-Christian. The stories were full of

references to a very vital spirituality, utilizing many eastern religious

beliefs interconnected with meditation or energy. They were very moving stories

and not what I would expect of someone who was without certainty.



The Conference Committee on Literature is in the process of publishing a

pamphlet "which focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and

agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." This 61st

Conference is entertaining a request to reconsider this action. I am very

curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these terms. Is it an easy way

to talk about "other than Christian" spirituality?



Amelia


0 -1 0 0
7314 intuited
Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #1 Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics #1 4/13/2011 6:49:00 PM


Rick, I enjoyed your email and wanted to follow up with my current thinking on

the conference. Your thoughts were very helpful.



Conference Pamphlet.

The 61st Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous will address one of the most

critical issues of our organization, -- the question of spirituality and the AA

premise regarding its nature as it impacts on sobriety. Last year the 60th

Conference approved a motion to: "develop literature which focuses on

spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are

successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous." The phrase “who are successfully

sober in Alcoholics Anonymous" has created a fury which has resulted in a

request to rescind this motion (Agenda G of the Literature Committee.)



AA was founded and is maintained by a set of principles for the individual and

the organization that are spiritual in nature. This spirituality requires that

each person determine the nature of this spiritual power, greater than herself

or himself, through his or her own direct knowledge of that power. This direct

experience can be described in a myriad of terms including the power, wisdom,

miracles and/or love in the rooms of AA (see The Best of Bill, p. 2). Many of

us move from the spirits in the bottles to the spirits in the rooms. One’s

perception of this power is never questioned, only one’s surrender to IT. The

alcoholic must come to the end of oneself. Spirituality is a result of “working

the 12 steps.



This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of

our fundamental beliefs. It implies that agnostics and atheists can, without

spirituality or the steps, be successfully sober. And it implies that the

trustees’ Literature Committee can define this new premise and its success with

alcoholism by the selection of certain success stories. It also references a

religion, atheism. Yet the U.S courts have ruled on several occasions that

atheism is a religion. Our documents make clear that we are not a religion.

The Conference has already decided that we will have no literature on religion

so this motion is in violation of a previous conference decision.



The trustees’ Literature Committee brilliantly sidestepped this dilemma by

planning the development of a pamphlet that would have a general introduction

and stories from alcoholics sober in AA reflecting a wide range of spiritual

experiences. The subcommittee agreed that the target audience for the pamphlet

would be the alcoholic newcomer who struggles with the spiritual aspect of the

program...and it could be used as a resource for professionals who have

questions about the subject. (See February 3, 2011 Agenda Item B, Background

Doc. 1, trustees' Literature Committee.) They then issued:



Call for Stories Focused on Spirituality



In response to the 2010 General Service Conference recommendation the 'the

trustees' Committee on Literature develop literature which focuses on

spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are

successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous...' the trustee's Literature

Committee is seeking stories from AA members.



The trustees are looking for stories that reflect a wide range of spiritual

experiences from AA members who, with any belief or non-belief, have found a

solution to the concept of spirituality and sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous.



Manuscripts should be 500-800 words, double-spaced. Please attach your name and

address on a separate piece of paper. The anonymity of all authors will be

observed, whether or not their story is selected for publication. Please send

sharing, by February 15, 2011 to: Literature Coordinator, General Service

Office, Box 459, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10163, or e-mail:

literature@aa.org "



Although they temporarily sidestepped this dilemma, this did not satisfy those

who requested that the motion be rescinded. Thus it will be taken up within the

trustees’ Literature Committee and possibly the floor.



From the beginnings of AA atheists and agnostics insisted on adding the phrase,

God “as we understand Him.” Our literature has continued to address a broad

spectrum of stories related to spirituality, including agnostics and atheists.

Are we reading and passing on these resources to the newcomer? The most

important question to answer is: “Do we need a pamphlet on spirituality?”



1. The AA Grapevine has several relevant publications, Spiritual Awakenings

(2003), Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) and Came to Believe (1973). These

documents include an abundance of stories from agnostics and atheists as well as

many eastern and other religions and philosophies. The April 2009 issue of the

Grapevine is devoted to “Agnostics in Recovery: Coming to Grips with a Higher

Power.” Additionally the AA Grapevine produced the CD, "Pathways to

Spirituality" (2002) and cassette "Pathways to Spirituality" (1987). They also

published Dilemma of No Faith and The Best of Bill by Bill W. Yet these stories

are not reflected in a pamphlet.



2. Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. has published several relevant

books and pamphlets. The 4th edition of the Alcoholics Anonymous has several

stories written by agnostics and atheists and other are in the Experience,

Strength, and Hope publication (2003). These stories include all the ones

omitted from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Big Book editions. One pamphlet, “Do You

Think You Are Different?” is similar to the new proposed pamphlet, but could be

broader in scope. It does include one story from an atheist and one story from

an agnostic (pp. 15, 31) but does not address a broad array of other spiritual

paths. This pamphlet could be combined with the new proposed pamphlet and

re-titled? Several other pamphlets briefly address agnostics and atheists:

Frequently Asked Questions about AA, This is AA: An Introduction to the AA

Recovery Program, and A Newcomer Asks…. Another pamphlet, “The AA Group: Where

It All Begins” could include a question in the Group Inventory on p. 29-30 words

in #3 such as: "Are we careful to honor all spiritual paths or do our meetings

utilize practices or prayers which favor one religion?” “Are we emphasizing

that all spiritual paths are welcome here?”



While we have been focusing on the agnostic and atheist issue we have overlooked

a much bigger issue, ---a need for a communication of the broader spectrum of

spiritual experiences and transformation. Our membership needs literature,

sponsors, meetings and 12-step work that describes and honors the incredibly

diverse spiritual paths that we utilize to get and stay sober! And a pamphlet

would make this much more accessible than our books.





On Mar 16, 2011, at 8:03 PM, ricktompkins wrote:



This is a clarification to the sharing of what's in intuited (Amelia)'s post

about the General Service Conference agenda and her final question. The

Conference Literature Committee is planning its discussion toward recommending

approval or disapproval on two agenda items:



Item B: Review progress report from the trustee's Literature Committee on the

development of literature which focuses on spirituality that includes stories

from atheists and agnostics who are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous.



Item G: Consider a request to reconsider the 2010 Conference Advisory Action

that "the trustees Literature Committee develop literature which focuses on

spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who are

successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous."



On one hand, the trustees' Literature Committee is giving a progress report on

the feasibility (want vs. need vs. cost) and format (length, type of publishing)

of new literature that would most likely be a pamphlet. That's what the 2010

Conference instructed them to develop: the possibilities.



On the other hand, item G's reconsideration request is to either recommend

Conference approval or disapproval on the "non-religious" spirituality pamphlet

which was approved to proceed last year.



The deluge of input on item G suggests a lot of constructive ideas have been

submitted for the project since last year, on both the pro and con for AAWS to

undertake such a new work of literature. In the end, only the Conference

Committee on Literature will make the recommendation to the Conference whether

to stop or proceed.



If the proposed pamphlet proceeds, the 2011 two newly Appointed Committee

Members on the Literature Committee will certainly be doing a lot of reading,

reviewing submitted work.



The AA Grapevine, Inc. has previously published four soft cover books on

spirituality without the heavy input of religious faith: two versions of "Came

To Believe, " another on "Spirituality" and another called "AA Around the

World." The question is, should AAWS, Inc. publish one, too? Give it time, and

the AA Grapevine will publish another one on AA spirituality.



In my home turf, the current issue of the Chicago Area's "Here's How" has six

articles on spirituality and only one of the articles mentions God. And in my

group and other meetings, I can understand many who are continually developing

their understanding of God, those holding an unshakable belief in the God of the

Bible, those who refuse to consider any belief because of past experience, and

those who have never been effectively exposed to God-consciousness. Call it the

whole gamut of faiths: those who say they know and those still finding out.

Anyone can get sober with or without a religious faith.



Intuited wrote: I am very curious about the AA historical use or misuse of these

terms. Is it an easy way to talk about 'other than Christian' spirituality?"



My answer is "yes."



It could be one of AA's greatest strengths about "God as we understood Him" to

appreciate any member's generic, poorly defined 'Creator' to be called "God"

because even that slight belief keeps that member's recovery in focus. Bill W.

wrestled with the "God" concept when he first got sober, too.



I'm not uneasy when I speak of God with the name "God" when I personally have my

own belief and don't feel the need to explain it. One-on-one, it's all right for

me to explain when asked, but otherwise in general group sharing it's always

come across as a distraction.



I've been to many Pentecostal services, seminars, and plenty of AA Open Speaker

meetings, and while I love them both their intent and the destinations are very

different!



Still sober,

Rick, Illinois


0 -1 0 0
7315 Joanna
Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form 4/18/2011 12:29:00 PM


I am writing an article for our Area Newsletter re: the long and short form of

the third tradition. I have searched this forum looking for answers - found

Arthur S's Part 4 re: how the short form of the Traditions were developed.



But I am still not satisfied because I can't find anything that tells me how the

short form could possibly have adequately represented the long form.



I am glad to know now, that the short forms were not written to fit on the

window shade, as has become urban legend in AA, but I am not finding what I am

looking for.



Can anyone add any information for me on how the short form, when it was first

drawn up, was regarded as an adequate summation of the long form?



Joanna W.

An AA Group

Area 10

______________________________________



TRADITION THREE -- SHORT FORM

(12 and 12 page 139)

"The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."



TRADITION THREE -- LONG FORM

(12 and 12 page 189)

"Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may

refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon

money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety

may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other

affiliation."



BIG BOOK -- FOREWORD TO FIRST EDITION

(Big Book 4th edit. page xiv)

"The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking."


0 -1 0 0
7316 Ryan
Chuck Chamberlain Chuck Chamberlain 4/18/2011 2:39:00 AM


Hello,



I am researching Chuck Chamberlain. I was wondering if anyone could provide me

with any information other than what I have found in this group already.



I know about New Pair of Glasses, various talks, as well as the DVD that Clancy

hands out at the Midnight Mission. The DVD is this talk:



http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chuck+c+new+pair+of+glasses&aq=f



Other than that, I haven't found any other publications or information about

Chuck. Does anyone know of any, or have any?



I also know that Chuck was an Ordained Minister of Religious Science. I found

the October 1962 issue of Science of Mind Magazine, which has an article

covering the Chamberlains. There is a good amount of information about Chuck's

involvement with Religious Science.



In any event, if anyone has any information that I don't have, I would be VERY

grateful. I am attempting to put together an archive display to show my

sponsees, and to donate to the local District Archives.



Love and Service


0 -1 0 0
7317 John Moore
Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort 4/13/2011 4:20:00 PM


From John Moore and Jackie Bendzinski



- - - -



From: John Moore <contact.johnmoore@gmail.com>

(contact.johnmoore at gmail.com)



Great to know these stories are being kept alive, and thanks to all.



I enjoyed hearing Sybil speak at my home group in the 1970's and think of her

every time we study the Third Tradition and Irma Livoni who was kicked out of AA

in 1941.



I am sure Frank and Cliff and Mort were doing the best they knew how at the

time. Cliff Walker was my sponsor's sponsor.



John M

South Burlington, Vermont

contact.johnmoore@gmail.com



- - - -



From: Jackie Bendzinski <jackiebendzinski@mac.com>

(jackiebendzinski at mac.com)



Hi John



We poke some fun at Frank's heavy-handedness :) The Los Angeles scene is my

favorite in the play and we've expanded it and Cliff's role for our LA

performance.



The second act of "In Our Own Words" is dedicated to the Third Tradition, but

unfortunately it did not work for this play to include Irma's story, though it

is personally one of the most powerful and tragic stories I have heard in AA

history. I'm researching and (slowly) writing a second documentary style play

solely on the history behind each tradition. Irma's story will be in that play.



If you email inourownwords.sanantonio@gmail.com, I can email you a pdf of the

script. I wish you could be there for our Los Angeles show. If anyone knows

Sybil's living sponsees and grand-sponsees in LA, I am very much hoping to get

in contact with them and invite them to the play. The LA archivist, Harvey, and

Sybil's daughter have already been invited. In fact, Sybil's daughter has

seen our recording and was very positive and supportive.



Take care,

Jackie B

San Francisco, California



___________________________________________



ORIGINAL MESSAGE

Message #7307 from "jaxena77"

<jackiebendzinski@mac.com> (jackiebendzinski at mac.com)



Grapevine Play in Los Angeles



We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own

Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County

for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell

Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph,

Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in

Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the

researching and writing of this documentary style play.



Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only

audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to

anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON!



Forward this message to a friend -

http://oi.vresp.com/f2af/v4/send_to_friend.html?ch=0076d7232a&lid=TEST&ldh=TEST



In Love and Service,

Jackie B.



===============================================

FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS:

http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/

===============================================



IN OUR OWN WORDS:

PIONEERS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS



Performing for the first time in Los Angeles County!



A SPECIAL BENEFIT FOR ICYPAA 2011!

Saturday, June 25 at 8 pm

The Lincoln Middle School Theater

1501 California Ave, Santa Monica, CA



Played to standing room only audiences in San Antonio in 2010, In Our Own Words

brings to life the pages of the Big Book, The Grapevine and the recordings of

the pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous. Simply, and with great humor and depth,

the play retells the stories of our founders in New York, Akron, Cleveland and

Los Angeles. Going further into our history, In Our Own Words also shares the

lesser-known struggles of the pioneering members of special composition groups

in the fellowship, including the first women and young people in AA, as well as

early gay, lesbian, African-American and Latino members. Join men and women like

Marty Mann, Sybil Corwin, Cliff Walker, Barry Leach, Joe McQuanny, and many

more, on their search for a solution and acceptance in the rooms. Their stories,

and this play, are not to be missed.



Tickets available soon at www.icypaahost.org


0 -1 0 0
7318 mikey_portz
Re: Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings Proxy or absentee votes at Group conscience meetings 4/16/2011 5:10:00 PM


From mikey_portz, gerrynmt, Mike Batty, and Ben Hammond



- - - -



From: "mikey_portz" <mportz2000@yahoo.com>

(mportz2000 at yahoo.com)



1. LOOK AT THE TRADITIONS



Your question is answered in Traditions One and Four. To quote the long form of

Tradition Four, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be

responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans

concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be

consulted. And no group .... or individual should ever take any action that

might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the

General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount."



2. IN CASE OF DOUBT, CONTACT THE NEW YORK GSO



For all the questions I have ever sent GSO regarding group actions, their basic

answer always refers me to Traditions 2 and 4. For solving

any questions regarding my home group's actions, policies, guidance,

suggestions, the Traditions, the Concepts, etc., I have found the most prudent

solution to solving these questions, is to email my "Pacific Region"

representative at GSO. She/he replies with a email within a couple of days and

it seems all members of my group, or my sponsees, are satisfied with A.A's GSO's

answer. Everyone trusts GSO's responses and it seems it stops any of the group's

members from being angry or resentful, which sometimes happens when the answer

comes from "a friend of mine with a lot of time," "I was told by a oldtimer," or

"I heard it in a meeting."



- - - -



From: "gerrynmt" <traditionsway@yahoo.com>

(traditionsway at yahoo.com)



"A service sponsee asked me whether there is any literature relating to proxy or

absentee voting at a group conscience meeting."



Page S37 in the AA Service manual indicates that while each group decides for

itself, it is not commonly practiced.



- - - -



From: Mike Batty <mcbat.t@rogers.com>

(mcbat.t at rogers.com)



My observation based on many years of group and district service. Oftentimes a

vote takes place at group level based on a prior meeting's discussion and

suitable discernment period, therefore I see no reason why group members may not

cast their vote in proxy if unable to attend. Similarly a member could stand for

an office of the group the night of nominations and/or voting, be they not

present. I would say in both occasions such notification should be in writing

and delivered by the proxy. I am sure this is keeping with Roberts Rules of

Order which business are best advised to follow taking into consideration the

necessary majorities called for in the AA service manual.



Remember just because it is AA there is no reason to disregard common sense ;)



Mike Batty

Waterloo, Ontario



- - - -



From: Ben Hammond <mlb9292@gmail.com>

(mlb9292 at gmail.com)



I agree with you, must be present to vote. Keep up the good work ...



God Bless,

Old Ben from Tulsa


0 -1 0 0
7319 mikey_portz
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 1938 dictionary definition of alcoholism as diseased condition 4/16/2011 4:50:00 PM


I agree with Chuck P. that the Big Book is "the most definitive book EVER

written on alcoholism." Without question it is also most certainly as literal

as any book I have ever read.



I am not certain why Bill chose to use the words "illness," malady, or

"sickness" instead of disease, but I can give you, as a long time aficionado of

A.A. and Bill Wilson history " an educated guess as to why Bill (or if you

prefer "the authors") were "specifically avoiding that term and for good

reason." The book was being written to "sell" (the word used by the original

35-40 total number of "Oxford Group drunk squad" members who in the late fall of

1937, agreed the Book should be written) to the "millions" of suffering

alcoholics in this country and eventually, the rest of the world. Because of

this, and because they expected the book to be read by thousands of

non-alcoholics as well as many influential members of the medical profession,

they did not want to create any type of controversy (avoidance of controversy

has always been, and still is, something which our society has tried to avoid

with complete abandon) nor offend with who resisted alcoholism being called a

disease.



Most people in the 30's, and deep into the 1970's, did not like to admit or

consider that alcoholism is/might be a disease. It was considered nothing but

weak will power, laziness, lack of morals, etc., etc. The reasons the pioneer

alcoholics wanted the book and the program to "sell" were simply and totally

altruistic. No one, including Bill W, was in it for the money. The primary

reason they wanted it to sell and succeed was to give alkies a "way out, for

which there was none at the time nor in the history of our planet. At least no

way that anyone could consistently count on. If the book was not well received,

A.A. might, quite possibly, ceased to exist.



I would also like to give the definition of "malady" which I will again take

from my 1938 dictionary. It is, "a disease or disorder of body or mind." From

the same dictionary, "illness" is defined simply and solely as "sickness."

Merriam-Webster defines "sickness" as; n. 1 : ill health; also; a specific

disease 2. : NAUSEA. So to me it is what it is and that is that disease,

illness, sickness, and malady are all synonymous. By the way I found the Nausea

definition for sickness to be "right up my alley" as it is exactly how alcohol

affected me towards the end of the evening (or before) on may occasions.



FYI, in the first 164 pages the word "illness" is used 12 times (three on page

18), "malady" 8 times and "sickness" 1 time. The word "Disease" (to the best of

my knowledge) is only used once in the first 164. It can be found on page #64

but its usage is related to "resentments," not the disease of alcoholism. "From

it stem all forms of spiritual disease."



For a more clear as well as precise answer to Chuck's question, as well as any

question regarding the writing of the "Big Book", A.A. History, The

"Traditions," etc., I would like to suggest emailing The GSO office, Archives

Department, in New York to New York. Answering questions for A.A.'s is one of

the primary services that GSO provides and they are some of the nicest and most

accommodating people I've ever run into.



I do have one question for Chuck P., that may help to answer his original

question. It is, why did Bill Wilson Dr. Bob, The American Medical Association,

all of the other pioneering A.A.'s, Dr. Henry Tiebout, Dr. William D. Silkworth,

etc., etc. etc. always refer to alcoholism as a disease. Because these stalwarts

and founders of our program, declarations by the AMA and other A.A. proponents

referred to alcoholism as a disease, is probably the main reason the rest of us

do. And, many of us through research of the disease concept, have come to

believe it as the truth.



Right or wrong, I think for me referring to my alcoholism as a disease,

definitely helps me to understand my malady and help keep me living the steps so

that I can keep my alcoholism in remission. Just like cancer, it will kill me. I

have no problem calling it a disease. If I did, I probably would be a little

less happy, joyous and free.

Kind regards in fellowship



- - - -



"Chuck Parkhurst" ineedpage63@...> wrote:



Why would the authors of the most definitive book EVER written on alcoholism

REPEATEDLY refer to the condition we suffer from as an "illness" if they meant

"disease?" In many areas of our book, we see the authors repeatedly use

synonyms and similar phrases to make the same point over and over. However, when

the authors use this same device regarding the alcoholic illness, they do NOT

use disease and prefer a term like malady. I believe that the fact disease is

conspicuous by its absence in similar circumstances confirms that the authors

were specifically avoiding that term and for good reason.


0 -1 0 0
7320 janie100570@comcast.net
First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities 4/17/2011 3:00:00 PM


I am looking for information on the first women to take AA meetings into

(women's) correctional facilities.



Any data any member of the HistoryLovers can provide would be much appreciated.



Thank you -- Jane S L


0 -1 0 0
7321 Chris Budnick
RE: First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities First women to take AA meetings into correctional facilities 4/19/2011 9:06:00 AM


I heard a talk by Jack P. where he talked about how he and Wynn L. began taking

meetings into the LA County jail and that it was not looked upon favorably by

other members of AA. This would have been late 1940's or very early 1950's.



There is also documentation of Betty Thom doing a lot of work with jails and

prisons. She corresponded with a many prison based groups

and contributed to their newsletters.



Chris B.

Raleigh, North Carolina


0 -1 0 0
7322 Susan Banker
Re: Chuck Chamberlain Chuck Chamberlain 4/18/2011 6:37:00 PM


From Susan Banker and Jared Lobdell



- - - -



From: Susan Banker in New York City

<sbanker914@aol.com> (sbanker914 at aol.com)



Hello Ryan,



This is one interesting item that I found online:



Chuck C.'s Testimony

Before a U.S. Senate Subcommittee



http://silkworth.net/aahistory/chuckc1969.html



************************************

Re-printed with permission by Nancy Olson,

moderator of The AA History Lovers e-group.

Nancy's book "With a Lot of Help from Our

Friends" is the major study of the passing

of the Hughes Act -- it was the Hughes Act,

NOT Prohibition, which was the most important

piece of alcoholism legislation in 20th

century U.S. history. The Hughes Act

still provides the basis for modern U.S.

alcoholism treatment centers.

************************************



Nancy Olson says: Chuck C., a well-known early AA member in California,

testified before the Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Subcommittee in Los Angeles on

Saturday, September 27, 1969. This is his testimony which I have copied from the

official hearing records:



Present: Senators Hughes, (presiding), Dominick, and Saxbe [members of the

Subcommittee]. Also present: Senators Cranston and Murphy [both Senators from

California].



THEN NANCY GAVE THE TEXT OF CHUCK'S SPEECH

TO THE SENATE SUBCOMMITTEE



Nancy concluded by noting that others have sent the following information on

Chuck C.:



He was born in 1902, and got sober in A.A. in January 1946. He wrote a book

called "A New Pair Of Glasses" which is a transcript of a retreat he gave for

alcoholics in 1975. The Preface is written by Clancy I. of California. It can be

purchased through New-Look Publishing Co., 1960 Fairchild, Irvine, CA 92715.



His son [Richard] became a famous actor.



Chuck died in 1984.



- - - -



From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



His son, the actor [George] Richard Chamberlain, is still alive and active at 77

-- perhaps you could talk to him. I don't recall if his autobiography Shattered

Love (2009) has anything on his father.



The well-known AA speaker Johnnie H (Long Beach) has pretty detailed

recollections of Chuck (who indeed came up several times in a conversation we

had at breakfast last month).


0 -1 0 0
7323 WendiT
Charlie of JOE AND CHARLIE passed away last night Charlie of JOE AND CHARLIE passed away last night 4/21/2011 12:24:00 PM


Charlie P.



A man passed away last night that has carried a message to hundreds of thousands

of us all over the world. He was a great messenger, a tireless servant, and a

dear dear friend. He carried the message of the Big Book and keep it alive in a

time when most of our fellowship had lost touch with our basic principles - your

effect has been felt - your footprint has been left - and I thank you Charlie.



Charlie P, along with Joe McQ and in later years Joe McC, traveled the world for

over 35 years starting fires of enthusiasm for our basic text.



-- Bob D.


0 -1 0 0
7324 Glenn Chesnut
Charlie P. funeral Tuesday April 26, 2011 Charlie P. funeral Tuesday April 26, 2011 4/22/2011 3:40:00 PM


Mt Hermon Church

18035 E 420 Rd, Jay, Oklahoma 74346-3500

phone (918) 253-4111



Message #37490 from: "A Change Will Do You Good" Yahoo group

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/achangewilldoyougood/message/37490



Just got a call from Barbara Parmley .... Charlie died last night of a heart

attack. Charlie turned 82 years old on the 8th of April. They lived in

Maysville, Arkansas.



The funeral will be at Mt. Hermon Church in Jay, Oklahoma on Tuesday from 2-4

pm. There will also be a viewing on Monday night.



In lieu of flowers, memorials in his name can be sent to The House of Hope.**



Charlie and Joe McQuany started the Big Book Studies in the early 70's,

traveling the world carrying the AA Big Book Message.



Love and may your God go with you,



Ian S.



______________________________________



From G.C. the moderator: Ian said the House of Hope was in Jay, Oklahoma, and

that they had a website at www.houseofhope.com



I couldn't find that. The closest I could find to that name and location was



http://houseofhopegrove.com/



in Grove, Oklahoma. The three towns (Maysville, Arkansas -- Jay, Oklahoma --

Grove, Oklahoma) are all just a few miles apart.



But I recommend checking though before sending any donations to the one in

Grove, just to make sure it is the right one.


0 -1 0 0
7325 Dolores
Death of Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes Death of Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes 4/21/2011 4:09:00 PM


[From Rob Fuhrman, Dolores, Bent Christensen, Cindy Miller, Stephen Macchia, and

anne marie.]



Charlie Parmley from Maysville, Arkansas, along with Joe McQuany and in later

years Joe McCoy, traveled the world for over 35 years starting fires of

enthusiasm for our basic text.

______________________________



From: Rob Fuhrman <stepnazi@yahoo.com>

(stepnazi at yahoo.com)



Had a heart attack on the way home from a meeting. Carried the message all the

way to the end of his life. True love and service.

______________________________



From: "Dolores" <dolli@dr-rinecker.de>

(dolli at dr-rinecker.de)



Dear Bob, I am so sorry to hear that Charlie has passed away. I met him twice at

Big Book studies in Nurnburg Germany. The first time he was there was in 1989

and Frank Mauser from the GSO Archives was along and Travers from Bristol.

Unforgettable. Charlie and Joe both did such a good job of making clear how

important it is to get the message from the Big Book. Thanks for letting me and

us know.



Yours in AA, Dolores

______________________________



From: "bent_christensen5" <bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>

(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)



God bless his soul and let us all keep caring the message in the same spirit as

they did. Charlie changed my life and I 'm very grateful for the work he and Joe

did for AA.



If you hear anything regarding funeral or memorial, please let me know. We are

not that well informed here in Denmark.



Bent Christensen

Valmuevej 17

6000 Kolding

Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43

www.synlighjemmeside.dk

______________________________



From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



I am absolutely stunned and saddened. Charlie seems like an old friend

who comes to my home every Friday night when I gather with a bunch of

newcomers, and we listen to the "Joe & Charlie" seminars. There is a meeting

near here that uses these tapes in their format -- kind of like an AA Speaker.

Another speaker/chairperson for that Big Meeting in the Sky ....



:-( Cindy Miller

______________________________



From: Stephen Macchia <joe_zip@sbcglobal.net>

(joe_zip at sbcglobal.net)



I got sober in a Joe and Charlie study nearly 25 years ago, and we are still

listening to the original set of tapes. To say they helped me to get sober would

be to understate the case. They will both now be missed, but they still carry

the message, at least they will on Monday nights in Southern California.



-- Steve

______________________________



From: "anne marie" <tim1leg@yahoo.com>

(tim1leg at yahoo.com)



Thank you, for letting us know.


0 -1 0 0
7326 Sherry C. Hartsell
Personal memories of Charlie P. Personal memories of Charlie P. 4/22/2011 12:16:00 AM


Wonderful memories of a close AA relationship in both our young Service yrs in

Arkansas ---- personal sadness at his loss, sad for his family and the

fellowship, Charley P and Wayne P were all officers in the Arkansas Assembly

together, that Assembly became my Home Group for all intents and purposes even

though I had a wonderful HOME AA Group in Magnolia, Ark, where I was privileged

to operate from into the State AREA (We had only ONE AREA and it was called the

Arkansas State Assembly --- we caught some flack from our neighbors in NETA

until they came to understand that Ark was not in need of division into multiple

AREAS as was our neighbor Texas.



Charley P. and Wayne P. shared the same Sponsor, Neil, who had been a Delegate

and was intent upon his sponsees being exposed to the fullness of AA Service; we

each served our terms on most of the Standing Committees and Offices within the

Assembly --- were hauled to or encouraged to attend any Service function within

a 3-4 State Area---and we mostly did attend/participate where appropriate most

all he encouraged us to attend.



I was the Assembly Chair for two terms and was responsible for researching and

with another member from Ft Smith who could type really well, responsible for

putting together the first set of "Policies and Procedures" for The Arkansas

Assembly. Shortly thereafter I was tasked with inviting David A. of Dallas to

come up to Little Rock and present a talk on the "Legacies" --- David stayed

over the week-end, I had a Brand-New 9 passenger Chevrolet Station Wagon that

got drafted into service to and from meetings, hotel, and restaurants ---- we

had a blast and it was the beginning of some long lasting relationships in A.A.



David got hold of our new Policies & Procedures, was impressed, said NETA was

trying to come up with P&P for their Area, could he borrow a set of the Ark P&P

to take back and use as a pattern for developing a set for NETA. Of course we

loaned them to him and he latter shared with me that our document was only

amended to fit their local circumstances ------ which is what I had mostly done

by traveling to and getting P&P from Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Louisiana, then

taking ideas from each and making that document fit our situation in

Arkansas.



In 1986 or 7, I was buying oil & gas Leases in North Dakota with a sponsee from

Tyler, Texas named TOM, well, Tom had been tasked to get me to invite the

Speakers for that years TYLER ANNIVERSARY --- I called Jim from The Glass House

Group in Ft Worth, then Joe McQ in Little Rock, Arkansas.



Joe McQ at first refused by saying quite frankly, "SHERRY! I can't come speak in

Tyler, Texas. Them folks got the KLAN in Tyler!", and he was indeed serious. So,

from North Dakota, I called my wife Beverly back in Arkansas and told her she

must call Joe's wife, Lou Belle, and convince her to convince Joe, to promise

that we would drive down with them and stay in the same hotel, share a room if

she would feel better about it. I called Joe back, he agreed under the condition

that I ask Charley P to come and introduce him, and that he could bring "some of

his boys" from the treatment center he ran in Little Rock.



The Tyler Committee for the most part were unaware that Joe McQ was a black man,

I believe it was his first experience speaking outside the State of Arkansas.

There were perhaps 1500 at that Anniversary most of whom had never heard of Joe

McQ or Charley P. The results were that within a yr of that talk, Joe McQ was

booked up solid FIVE YEARS in advance and within a short time after that, "Joe &

Charley Big Book Talks" were spread literally world-wide.



Charley P was my friend, my brother in the Fellowship and in It's Service --- I

am so grateful God placed Charley P, Wayne P., AND Joe McQ in my path, my

sobriety is better for having had that association.



Sherry C.H.


0 -1 0 0
7327 hdmozart
Charlie P -- full details of funeral arrangements Charlie P -- full details of funeral arrangements 4/22/2011 5:31:00 PM


From the Worley-Luginbuel Funeral Home - Jay, Oklahoma



General Information

Full Name: Charles A Parmley

Date of Birth: Friday April 8th 1921

Date of Death: Thursday April 21st 2011



First Visitation

When: Monday April 25th 2011 6:00pm - 8:00pm

Location: Worley-Luginbuel Funeral Home - Jay

1600 S Main St

Jay, Oklahoma



Service Information

When: Tuesday April 26th 2011 2:00pm

Location: Mt. Hermon Church

68035 E 420 Rd

Jay, Oklahoma



Interment Information

Location: Maysville Cemetery

Hwy 43

Maysville, Arkansas



Donations in lieu of flowers to be sent in Memory of Charlie Parmley to:

House of Hope Inc, PO Box 451585 Grove, OK 74345

918-786-2930

Or donations may be made online at: http://houseofhopegrove.com





Obituary and more information:

http://luginbuelfuneralhome.frontrunnerpro.com/runtime/3060/runtime.php?SiteId=3\

060&NavigatorId=54126&viewOpt=dpaneOnly&ItemId=723627&op=tributeMemorialCandles



0 -1 0 0
7328 Charles Knapp
Memorial book for Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes Memorial book for Charlie P of the Joe and Charlie tapes 4/22/2011 4:52:00 PM


Doug B at AAHISTORY.COM has set up a memorial book for Charlie P if anyone would

like to leave their thoughts and prayers. Here is a link:



http://www.aahistory.com/charliep/sign.php



Being a poor reader, Joe and Charlie helped me understand what I was reading in

a way that no one else could. I honestly do not think I would be where I am in

my recovery without them.



Miss you Charlie



Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
7329 DouglasBlackburn@bellsouth.net
Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes 4/23/2011 4:20:00 PM


Is Joe McCoy still alive?


0 -1 0 0
7331 DONALD BENNITT
Joe McC is alive and well Joe McC is alive and well 4/23/2011 11:52:00 PM


Joe McCoy of the Joe and Charlie tapes is alive and well.



(from Don Bennitt and Jim Hoffman)



- - - -



From: DONALD BENNITT <dbennitt@sbcglobal.net>

(dbennitt at sbcglobal.net)



I talked with Joe Mc on Thursday. It is Joe Mc Q -- the other Joe -- that has

passed.



Don



- - - -



From: "Jim Hoffman" <jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>

(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)



The statement that Joe McCoy is also dead is totally incorrect information. Joe

McCoy was alive and well on Wednesday April 20, 2011.



________________________________



From: Aldo <openboth@yahoo.com> Sent: April 23, 2011

Subject: Re: Joe McC of the Joe and Charlie tapes



Sadly, Joe Mc has passed away also.


0 -1 0 0
7332 RacewayJay
We need a good history of Charlie and the two Joes We need a good history of Charlie and the two Joes 4/23/2011 5:20:00 PM


When did Charlie get sober? What about the two Joes? When did they get sober? Is

there any good history on them already written?



If not, would someone be willing to write a good, detailed historical account?


0 -1 0 0
7333 Patricia
Joe McQ of the Joe and Charlie tapes Joe McQ of the Joe and Charlie tapes 4/23/2011 5:37:00 PM


Joe McQuany died October 25, 2007



(from pdixonrae, Charley Bill, and Dave T.)



- - - -



From Patricia <pdixonrae@yahoo.com>

(pdixonrae at yahoo.com)



Charlie's partner Joe McQuany died in October 2007. The following was his

funeral announcemnt.



Patricia



- - - -



FUNERAL ANNOUNCEMENT



Joe McQuany (November 16, 1928 - October 25, 2007)



From the Kelly Foundation website:

http://www.kellyfdn.com/condolences_in_memory_of_joe_mcq.htm



Wake and Viewing: Wednesday October 31,

9 A.M. - 9 P.M., at the Wolfe Street Center,

1210 Wolfe Street, Little Rock, AR 72202

Phone (501) 372-5662

http://www.wolfestreet.org/

Family Visitation: Wednesday October 31 at the

Wolfe Street Center 6 P.M. - 7 P.M.



The Funeral will be held on Thursday November

1, 2007 - 11 A.M. - Pulaski Heights United

Methodist Church, 4823 Woodlawn Avenue,

Little Rock, Arkansas 72205

http://www.phumc.com/where.htm



- - - -



From: Charley Bill <charley92845@gmail.com>

(charley92845 at gmail.com)



The original Joe went by the name of Joe McQ and was the founder and proprietor

of a very large rehab in Little Rock. He died October 25, 2007. Here is a

photo, a very good one as I remember Joe from 10 years ago. Here's a link to his

memorial page:



http://www.aahistory.com/joemcq/sign.php



- - - -



Also from: Dave T. in Connecticut

<bluefox@dublin.com>

(bluefox at dublin.com)


0 -1 0 0
7334 Paul
Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity 4/17/2011 12:56:00 AM


Since I've read everything (I think) "AA history" that sold over 10K

copies, I think, and even a few that sold less, I'm on page 1 (first of the text

proper - page 6) of Robert Stonebraker's book, "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study

of Synchronic Events."



CARL JUNG: SPIRITUAL vs. RELIGIOUS



A question (now scanning a few pages ahead) pertains to the figure

containing Carl Jung's use of the expression(s) "real religious insight" and

"highest religious experience" interchangeably, it would appear, with the sort

of event or experience (or "education/evolution"), spiritual in nature, that the

vexed alcoholic might/must seek. Subsequently, on that page of text, you cite:



"Since Rowland was a typical alcoholic, however, it took him seven more years

of denial and misery -- as he continued to refuse to take Jung's prescription

seriously -- before he met Courtenay Baylor from the Emmanuel Movement and began

seeking a spiritual solution for his alcoholism.." adding that, "Jung ended

up telling Rowland that he had never seen alcoholics of his type recover until

they became willing to commit themselves to the spiritual life." We also have

"You recommended that he place himself in a religious atmosphere and hope for

the best. This I believe was the substance of your advice," in the letter from

Bill W. for Jung.



Those familiar with AA history likely regard the spiritual VS religious

"discrepancy" as old hat, or splitting hairs, or both. "Resign from the debating

society" is a common invective. The irony, if there is any, is the veritable

insistence, or zeal, that "I'm spiritual but not religious," about which many

AA's are adamant. Since noted physicist Wolfgang Pauli collaborated with Jung,

it (spiritual VS religious) may just be an example of the "Principle of

Complimentarity," whereby when "looking" for the wave-like features of

electromagnetic radiation (visible light for instance) or the particle-like

features (photons), science detects either - but never both simultaneously.



Anyhow, historically speaking - if that's the terminology - at some point in

history it doesn't seem to have mattered much, unless "organized religion" is

connoted to mean "religion."



That might not mean anything. Except for the fact that Jung's causal principle

may be in question, especially if (his own) "verification technique" or

"evidence" has much to do.



CARL JUNG: SYNCHRONICITY



Regarding Synchronicity — An Acausal Connecting Principle (which I confess to

reading about 60 pages of at Barnes & Noble roughly a decade ago) wikipedia.org

portends that it "was a principle that Jung felt gave conclusive evidence for

his concepts of archetypes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes>

and the collective unconscious

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious> ".



Enter Richard Noll.



Again, from wikipedia: "In 1994 he [Noll] received an award for Best

Book in Psychology from the Association of American Publishers

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Publishers> for

his book, The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement. The

resulting controversy over the book made front-page headlines worldwide,

including a front-page report in the 3 June 1995 issue of The New York Times

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times> . Princeton University Press

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University_Press> submitted The Jung

Cult to the Pulitzer Prize <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulitzer_Prize>

competition that year, without success. Although not a definitivetreatment of

Jung, the book acted as a climacteric, effectively changing the agenda of

scholarly debate in Jung studies for the more than a decade that has followed

its publication" [Bold added.]



I read Noll's book(s) more carefully. Among other things, what the former

Harvard Professor has effectively done is made a conclusive case that Jung's

clinical "evidence" for archetypes en toto was essentially flubbed, and if that

weren't enough, that Jung's later book(s) intentionally disguised/suppressed the

fairly blatant fudge factors. It's that simple.



No one, to my knowledge, has proven, or even attempted to prove Noll's scholarly

research "wrong." The Jung estate essentially "closed the vaults" to further

research as a result. Their subsequent publication of Jung's Red Book seems to

have been a red herring. The 400 pound gorilla hasn't moved an inch: Noll has

apparently already let every bit of the cat out of the bag. I'm not saying that

Jung was a liar. Noll "exposes" Jung, in many respects, to the best of his (or

anyone's?) "historical ability" for what he was as a charismatic and expresses

his admiration for Jung's unique genius.



I honestly have no idea of the validity of synchronicity. I strongly

suspect there's something inherent in the human imagination that

predisposes us towards these types of theories. There's the old "nothing happens

by accident" or "I don't believe in coincidences" axiom(s).



What is really synchronous? comes to mind.



I don't think Bill W. gave Carl Jung a tip of his hat out of

coincidence. I don't think JD Rockefeller paid Bill Wilson's salary (at least

for a time) purely out of coincidence. I don't think Bill and Lois Wilson were

married in the Swedenborg Church purely out of coincidence. I don't think Aldous

Huxley called Bill Wilson "The greatest social architect of our time" purely out

of coincidence; maybe I don't believe in coincidences, either. Wilson appears to

have been extremely ingenious and resourceful and especially driven in the goal,

his goal, of attaining permanent sobriety.



I think it would be worth considering the synchronous nature of the

spiritual milieu (means religious atmosphere) circa 1925 - or even 1921 because

of the end of the war - 1935 - and perhaps up to about 1941.



Just like I haven't any strong "pro" or "contra" feeling towards AA (on an

individual basis) I haven't any towards Jung's synchronicity. "To each his own,"

or "attraction rather than promotion," suits me fine, and it would appear the AA

"concept" (fellowship) has helped many, and the synchronicity concept may have

as well. My own personal opinion is that any serious student of AA (or rather

more precisely Bill W.) "history" (since I'm no historian) might go back so far

as Madame Blavatsky or even Emanuel Swedenborg and Böhme. About all that

survives in common parlance is the "bohemian lifestyle" that Bill and Lois were

so fond of in their married youth. I think the Bill W. biographers call it "a

rustic or nomadic lifestyle."



Put differently: as we already know, Bill Wilson said, "I've always considered

myself a shopper at the spiritual pie counter." (Grapevine, LOH, or Ernie Kurtz,

I can't recall.) For sure Carl Jung was baking some very serious cakes; a whole

generation were eating them up like candy, and a whole new generation still

would, maybe even more so.



Having taken the time to examine the Pre-AA History Book 1926-35 book (booklet)

and considering its concept, I admire the courage to compose it. Therefore I

find it interesting. Having glanced at them, what I'd like now is a premise to

read the remaining 27 pages, carefully, as I haven't, rather than simply

scanning them to discover an (alternative) premise. That would be work. My

question, then, to it's author, may be blunt, and I hope that there's no

disrespect on my part: why the exemption of the term "religious?" I don't

consider the question "pointed" or "probative," but I won't accept the pat

answer(s) "we have no leaders" (as religions do) because "our leaders are but

trusted servants," or, "AA hasn't any anathema to religion" beings "many of us

return to the religions of our youth," because the language is what I'm asking

about. Aside from that, J. Gordon Melton has remarked that "AA may be the only

successful example of pure anarchy yet in existence."



wikipedia.org: J. Gordon Melton of the University of California, Santa

Barbara, Distinguished Senior Fellow at Baylor University

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baylor_University> 's Institute for

Studies of Religion [who has appeared on national TV]. His Encyclopedia of

American Religions, which was originally published in 1978, has become a

standard work of reference that outstrips the number of groups that Clark was

able to identify and classify in the 1940s.)



No matter Stonebraker - congratulations on your diligence, and I applaud the

obvious considerable effort. "Mapping the territory" is important.



Best,



Paul


0 -1 0 0
7335 Dougbert
Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics 4/15/2011 6:16:00 PM


From Dougbert and Bailey, plus Gerard vs. Amelia



- - - -



From: Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com>

(dougbert8 at yahoo.com)



Can anybody give me a list of the stories in the Grapevine written by atheists?

We need to share the message if we are to perform our 12 step work.



I am a godless alcoholic. I believe I can do my best service to the fellowship

by letting newcomers know that you CAN get and stay sober without GOD. This is

my 12 step calling. All the information from GSO will not save lives if the only

messages that are allowed through are those from one or another narrow doctrinal

religious perspective.



How many newcomers leave the rooms because they are not God worshipers?

 

In fellowship,

Doug



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



Bill W said there was freedom of thought and action in AA. Why are we trying to

destroy freedom of thought and action? The conference has no authority to order

the groups around. As funny as it may sound now, The eleventh step prayer in AA

comes of age, says, "For it is by self forgetting that one finds." I do not

think what groups think about spirituality has anything to do with spirituality.



- - - -



From: "Gerard" <GRault@yahoo.com> (GRault at yahoo.com)



This thought, quoted from Amelia's message below,***



"This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of

our fundamental beliefs. IT IMPLIES THAT AGNOSTICS AND ATHEISTS CAN, WITHOUT

SPIRITUALITY OR THE STEPS, BE SUCCESSFULLY SOBER."



-- this thought seems to me to be clearly erroneous.



It takes as an implicit given that there can be no spirituality without a belief

in the existence of "God," a proposition that would astonish much of the world's

population -- Buddhists, for example.



It further assumes that to work the steps requires a belief in the existence of

THE WRITER'S traditionalist concept of "God." On the contrary, the beauty of

the phrase "as we understood Him" (the only italicized words in the steps) is

that each of us can interpret the Power in accord with our own beliefs. Many

believe that the traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and

understand that the word is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and

unknown Power which is the source of all that exists, especially love, beauty,

truth, justice, compassion and similar qualities. Who can rightly presume to

tell them that that "understanding" of "God" is officially incorrect in A.A.?



Love and tolerance,



Gerry

New Orleans, Louisiana

Hua Hin, Thailand



____________________________________________



*** Original message #7314 from Amelia

<intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at earthlink.net)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7314



Rick, I enjoyed your email and wanted to follow up with my current thinking on

the conference. Your thoughts were very helpful ....



Last year the 60th Conference approved a motion to: "develop literature which

focuses on spirituality that includes stories from atheists and agnostics who

are successfully sober in Alcoholics Anonymous" ....



This 60th conference motion implies several premises that are in violation of

our fundamental beliefs. It implies that agnostics and atheists can, without

spirituality or the steps, be successfully sober ....



AA was founded and is maintained by a set of principles for the individual and

the organization that are spiritual in nature. This spirituality requires that

each person determine the nature of this spiritual power, greater than herself

or himself, through his or her own direct knowledge of that power. This direct

experience can be described in a myriad of terms including the power, wisdom,

miracles and/or love in the rooms of AA (see The Best of Bill, p. 2) ....


0 -1 0 0
7336 Charley Bill
Re: Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form 4/22/2011 3:50:00 AM


Joanna,



The same guy wrote both the long and the short forms. If this is true, the

author must have felt the short was a proper representation of the long.



This author also put them in the 12 and 12, which has some words on why we have

a short form.



The guy was a fellow by name of Bill "Hole in Shoe" Wilson, and you should know

that his words are positively divinely ordained and one must dare not mention

the possibility of a change or that there is anything amiss with them. That's

heresy. They're perfect, just as they are.



Just ask any old timer.



Only partially in jest, Charley B.



______________________________________



On 4/18/2011 9:29 AM, Joanna wrote:

>

> I am writing an article for our Area Newsletter re: the long and short

> form of the third tradition. I have searched this forum looking for

> answers - found Arthur S's Part 4 re: how the short form of the

> Traditions were developed.

>

> But I am still not satisfied because I can't find anything that tells

> me how the short form could possibly have adequately represented the

> long form.

>

> I am glad to know now, that the short forms were not written to fit on

> the window shade, as has become urban legend in AA, but I am not

> finding what I am looking for.

>

> Can anyone add any information for me on how the short form, when it

> was first drawn up, was regarded as an adequate summation of the long

> form?

>

> Joanna W.

> An AA Group

> Area 10

> ______________________________________

>

> TRADITION THREE -- SHORT FORM

> (12 and 12 page 139)

> "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."

>

> TRADITION THREE -- LONG FORM

> (12 and 12 page 189)

> "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence

> we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever

> depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered

> together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided

> that, as a group, they have no other affiliation."

>

> BIG BOOK -- FOREWORD TO FIRST EDITION

> (Big Book 4th edit. page xiv)

> "The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop

> drinking."

>

>


0 -1 0 0
7337 Charley Bill
Re: Chuck Chamberlain Chuck Chamberlain 4/22/2011 4:02:00 AM


Ryan, check with someone at the Canyon Club in Laguna Beach, California. Chuck

is said to have built it and donated it to the Laguna AAs. It is far above any

and all 'AA' facilities I have seen in my 41 years of travels in and out of

sobriety. Good Luck and I think you will find someone there who can tell you

loads about Chuck. I just knew him scantly, but knew both his drivers and one

of his would-be biographers(now dead).



There is a branch of the Orange County Central office in Laguna and I

bet they have loads of stuff on Chuck, too. A little group I belong to studied

A New Pair of Glasses a year or two ago and we were not

impressed. I remember him as a great orator, but did not know much

about the content of his speeches as I was new at the time.


0 -1 0 0
7338 J. Lobdell
Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics 4/25/2011 6:09:00 PM


From Jared Lobdell and Glenn Chesnut



- - - -



From" "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@hotmail.com>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



Richard Peabody seems to have tried to bring about sobriety through surrender

without having anything or anyone in particular to surrender to -- with dubious

results.



Carl Jung's views were certainly focused on the spiritual (as were William

James's) without accepting the ordinary interpretations of the word "religious"

(remember Jung's spiritus contra spiritum).



It is certainly possible, by definition, for an agnostic (as that word is

normally understood) to have a spiritual experience, or an experience of the

numinous,** or of the holy** (as those words are normally understood): he or she

could even go on having them, and remain agnostic about how they came.



If Atheist means simply someone who does not believe in the God of any

particular "religion" I suspect the same is true there.



If Atheist means someone who does not believe in the mystical, the numinous,**

the spiritual (however defined), the holy,** then while there is no doubt

logically that such persons can have a mystical experience, spiritual

experience, even an experience of the numinous,** it's not entirely sure how

they will deal with it successfully as part of their recovery if they don't

believe it can have taken place.



The "Atheist" Jim B. (sober 1938 to death in 1974 -- "The Vicious Cycle") seems

to have had such an experience, reading a passage in a Gideon Bible to the

effect that the kingdom of god is within you -- but he then went on to preach

the insight from that experience.



At one point Bill says that -- was it Hindu or Buddhist priests? -- these

priests simply would have substituted "Good" for "God" -- but while I suspect

that is encouraging for A.A. in a considerably non-Christian world, I suppose no

one would claim that Hindus or Buddhists are Atheists -- however much the Hindus

in particular might be polytheists.



But how will any arms of AA decide the spiritual value of the experiences and

beliefs of those with different, unorthodox, or (not perhaps the best choice of

word) Atheistic spiritualities? In any case, there's some strength to the view

that matters of religion are outside issues. I don't say work shouldn't be done

on this -- personally I think it should -- but in Conference-approved

literature? The "spiritual"/"religious" distinction is not unlike the

"religious/Gospel" temperance distinction of Washingtonian days -- and it

confused people then. As with much history, he who runs may read -- and beyond

this, I'm not sure this is truly an AAHL issue.



- - - -



**THE HOLY, THE NUMINOUS, COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS



From: Glenn C. <glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



See the discussion between the great scientist Albert Einstein on cosmic

religious feeling and the great theologian Paul Tillich (a colleague of Reinhold

Niebuhr at Union Theological Seminary) on the holy and the numinous:

http://hindsfoot.org/pers2.pdf -- pp. 69-86



See the formative book by Richard Maurice Bucke, "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study

in the Evolution of the Human Mind."



MEL BARGER



Also see Mel B's article on Cosmic Consciousness and Bill W. in the May 1976

Grapevine at http://silkworth.net/melb/cosmic.html



Also Mel B's book "My Search for Bill W.," page 24:



<<Surprisingly, it was a long time before I followed Bill's suggestion to read

Bucke's extraordinary "Cosmic Consciousness," first published in 1901 and still

in print. Bucke's experience in what he termed "cosmic consciousness" had been

cited in James's "The Varieties of Religious Experience" .... In Bill's case, I

believe, his momentary experience with the cosmic sense [at Towns Hospital] had

opened the door to what would become AA.>>



THE GREAT GERMAN PHILOSOPHER AND THEOLOGIAN RUDOLF OTTO on the holy and the

numinous:



http://hindsfoot.org/g04sacr.pdf



http://hindsfoot.org/g05myst.pdf



As Mel B. has noted, it is necessary to read about Bucke and William James (and

also, as I would point out, Rudolf Otto, Albert Einstein, and Paul Tillich) in

order to understand the thought context in which the Big Book was written.


0 -1 0 0
7339 From: "Paul
Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA 4/26/2011 2:12:00 PM


TRYSH TRAVIS: Language of the Heart (University of North Carolina Press, 2009)



from: "Paul" <spectrumptg@yahoo.com> (spectrumptg at yahoo.com)

_____________________________________________





TRYSH TRAVIS: "TRADITIONALIST AA" vs. "RECOVERY-INFUSED POPULAR CULTURE"



Trysh Travis' Language of the Heart is worthy if just for this: "Traditionalist

AA" along with "recovery-infused popular culture," although inadequate, are good

attempts at topographic constructs, even though they're (provisionally) 2D.



I think that (an) AA history can be adequately mapped, and should be mapped

globally, with certain marginal restrictions, as E. Kurtz has attempted, rather

nobly, placing it in the context of the history of religious ideas, as it must,

up to and including the present cultic milieu. If you ask me, which you didn't,

the dynamics of (a cultural) history are what makes for interest, and I suppose

synchronicity is a kind of guidepost, tho in-and-of-itself synchronicity is

somewhat static.



I hope nobody takes offense at overstating the obvious, and I think the

premise(s) of this forum make(s) it clear, that the perspective that AA is not a

"thing," but rather an "entity" or more properly a fellowship, where fellowship

is more often a verb, and "greater than the sum of its parts"; or that AA is a

"fluid collection of fellows (guys and gals) and fellowships that can never be

apprised as a monolithic entity" is one of the preferred historical

perspectives.



On that count, I think that the ("constituent") Pre-AA History Book 1926-35

should prove valuable to most anybody curious about AA history in the broad

sense. I'm especially interested in the recent Roland Hazard report and know

I'll examine at least that segment carefully. I believe E. Kurtz called into

question Roland's stay in Vienna; I also remember seeing somewhere more recent

research into Jung's relation to Hazard as physician.



"Some of my colleagues in religious studies have complained of a sense of

boredom. They tell me that nothing new has been said in their sub-discipline in

recent years, even recent decades. We in New Religions Studies have no such

problem. We have a monstrous landscape of unploughed pasture and new land coming

into view with each acre that is cultivated. We can be secure in one fact, we

will not run out of topics for our research in the lifetime of any of us here."

(The Rise of the Study of New Religions, 1999) -J. Gordon Melton



Whether one likes it or not, I believe that AA (now as a phenomenon or movement)

has shaped and is still shaping the "monstrous landscape of unploughed pasture"

Melton speaks about. Has ANYONE made a thorough scholarly study of AA

vernacular? Haven't academics effectively restricted themselves to print

culture? Even Kurtz' book ignores "There is a God and you're not him!" from

which, it could be casually contended, even his very book title Not-God might

derive. Surely I'm not the first to notice? Ernie, they actually SAY that in

meetings: "There is a God, and you're not him!" {Not you, Ernie, they mean "you"

in the second person singular, Lol!}

_____________________________________________





TRYSH TRAVIS: "TRADITIONALIST AA" vs. "GSO AA"



PS: I've been wanting to "jump in" since I saw Trysh Travis' relatively new book

was featured here by Glenn Chesnut. This seemed the place to do so.



In primary terms, a semi-incomplete quasi-static view of AA (already)

exists. So far, it's essentially a linear algebra (of multiple

trajectories - "Traditionalist" and "GSO" for lack of better

delineation). My estimate is that a so-called tensor analysis (matrix

entries are vector rather than scalor) where "relativistic" components

are "recovery-infused pop cultural" for instance a la Trysh Travis. I

had to think about this. "Traditionalist" AA may complain of the

reverse: an "infusion" of A Course In Miracles &tc, but I'm not sure

anyone has adequately diagnosed it.



In addition to Mr. Stonebraker, thanks again to Glenn Chesnut for drawing

attention to the esteemed Professor Travis' book around which a fairly eerie

silence seems to loom thus far. [Kind of like Charlie Sheen, Dr. Drew, and Jane

Valez-Mitchel.] I take (tongue in cheek) exception to that, beings (now in

seriousness) her's is the first major scholarly "AA focused history/culture

book" since Kurtz? Or am I missing something? It's quite possible. Nevertheless,

I'm not much interested in going over a lot of old ground, and I myself would

try to avoid any of that. My apologies in advance if I've done any of that. I've

read few posts here, but I've used the internal "search" feature to try to avoid

redundancy.



Best,



Paul


0 -1 0 0
7340 intuited
Re: Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics 4/25/2011 10:09:00 PM


The AA Grapevine has published two books of stories, Spiritual Awakenings (2003)

and Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) that cover a broad array of perceptions and

experiences of the journey in sobriety. It includes a variety of religious and

non-religious perspectives. There is a little bit for everyone, in any state of

questioning. I was very inspired by these books. I wish they were spoken of

more in the program. We have so much literature that most meetings only carry

the very basics. I have increasingly found that the "concept of God" is often

reductionistic, not used in the historical evolution of the word,

misinterpreted, and just not useful. So more and more I just use the word

"Power." It certainly helps me with my understanding of quantum physics, photon

light, space between particles, entanglement theory, etc.



Many of us in our town were struggling with this problem of the newcomer hearing

the "God-talk" and being confused. So we started a speaker/discussion meeting

called "Journey of the Heart" and have several sentences in our format

emphasizing the acceptance of all paths, encouraging unity in diversity. Its

amazing how many members don't have a traditional concept of God as their

greater power. And the way they experience this "knowing" is very unique. In

fact, some describe this knowing as their intuition. Our last speaker described

it as a wind blowing through him when he did the 6th and 7th.



I think what Gerry from New Orleans said is right on: "Many believe that the

traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and understand that the word

is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and unknown Power which is the

source of all that exists, especially love, beauty, truth, justice, compassion

and similar qualities."



Amelia


0 -1 0 0
7341 jaxena77
Re: Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort Grapevine Play: Sybil, Irma Livoni, Frank, Cliff, and Mort 4/24/2011 2:57:00 AM


The AA historical play "In Our Own Words," written using the actual words of the

early AA figures, will be performed in Los Angeles on June 25th, 2011, see

http://icypaahost.org/page7.php



We are also doing a benefit performance of the play in Sonoma County (in

connection with the Sonoma County Intergroup Fellowship) on Saturday, June 18,

2011 at the Veterans Memorial Hall in Sebastopol see

http://www.brownpapertickets.com/event/172646



Thank you to everyone who has helped us. It has really been appreciated!



Jackie B

San Francisco, California


0 -1 0 0
7342 Laurie Andrews
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol 4/20/2011 7:52:00 AM


From Laurie Andrews, John Barton, and Les Cole



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



None of this would matter if there were a universal consensus that alcoholism IS

a disease; but there isn't, so AA as such can have no opinion on this

controversial outside issue.



Mike P. calls in aid Dr Silkworth as referring to

alcoholism as a disease. Well, he might have done elsewhere, but he certainly

did not in his foreword to the Big Book (The Doctor's Opinion - which the

compilers refer to as "the medical estimate of the plan of recovery"), viz: "We

doctors have realized for a long time that some form of moral psychology was of

urgent importance to alcoholics but its application presented difficulties

BEYOND OUR CONCEPTION. WHAT WITH OUR ULTRA-MODERN STANDARDS, OUR SCIENTIFIC

APPROACH TO EVERYTHING, WE ARE PERHAPS NOT WELL EQUIPPED TO APPLY THE POWERS OF

GOOD THAT LIE OUTSIDE OUR SYNTHETIC KNOWLEDGE (emphasis added) ... We believe

... that the action of alcohol on (these) chronic alcoholics IS A MANIFESTATION

OF AN ALLERGY..." (Is the allergy hay fever a disease?) He goes on to say that

although "recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort (is) considerable ...

many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach .. in nearly

all cases their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves ...

unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little

hope of his recovery".



CF "three pertinent ideas": (a) that we were alcoholic

and could not manage our own lives; (b) that probably no human power (including

medical science working in a disease paradigm) could have relieved our

alcoholism; (c) that God could and would if he were sought. (Jung came to a

similar conclusion in his advice to Rowland H. He did not tell Rowland to seek

medical help but to associate himself with a religious fellowship).



Dr Silkworth describes himself as "Medical Director of one of the oldest

hospitals in the

country treating alcohol and drug addiction"; i.e. an authority on alcoholism.

Dr Bob, who told Bill D. "you have a disease", was a proctologist. Now

haemorrhoids, like a broken leg, can be extremely painful and depressing - but

they are not a disease! To argue that addiction, affliction, sickness, illness,

malady, disease are all the same is fallacious. ("Someone with a disease is

sick; an alcoholic is sick; therefore alcoholics have a disease"). If the

different words were exact and precise synonyms, all with the same meaning,

there would be no need for their nuanced subtleties. When Bill was asked

directly (see earlier postings): "Did you intend to make any difference between

sickness and disease?" He replied, "We AA's have never called alcoholism a

disease..." What could be clearer?



In the original working manuscript of the Big Book, reproduced in "The Book That

Started It All" (Hazelden, 2010), alterations in the original text show the

nascent fellowship bending over backward not to claim medical expertise and to

stay at arm's length from the professionals. E.g. Commenting on changes to the

manuscript page 12, paragraph 6, lines 1-4, the anonymous Hazelden authors

observe: "In spite of the truth that physicians and psychiatrists were not able

to bring about sustained solutions with alcoholics, the editors wisely removed

words that could imply time wasted or never making headway with an alcoholic.

This is a fine line because simultaneously it seems they want the alcoholic

reader to recognise that this seemingly hopeless state of mind and body is

beyond human aid - including the medical profession..." (TBTSIA, op cit page

198). Manuscript page 12, para 7, lines 1-4: "But the ex-alcoholic who has found

this solution, who is properly armed with certain medical information (changed

to, "the facts about himself") ..." Hazelden comment: Margin notes on top of

page and right-side of page related to these edits: "Doctors are a jealous lot

and don't like this. I have to ask WHAT MEDICAL INFORMATION? Why not cut?"

(TBTSIA ibid p199). Manuscript page 15, para 4, line 3: Hazelden: This edit

demonstrates sensitivity in not making a statement that would likely trigger the

inconsistency between a psychiatric model that at this point would not embrace

the knowledge of the illness of the mind/mental obsession. Manuscript page 45,

para 1, line 5: "Remember they are fatally (changed to "very") ill." Hazelden:

The margin note tied to the word "fatally" is "Doctors will shoot." This edit

represents the fine-tooth comb used throughout the manuscript to have the

utmosty sensitivity to any language that could possibly alienate the medical

profession (TBTSIA ibib p200). Alas, the Hazelden authors cannot avoid falling

into the same trap. On page 201 in a section headed "Alcoholism as a disease of

the mind and body" they discuss The Doctor's Opinion and note "... these

founding aspects of the disease of alcoholism, initially revealed to Bill W by

Dr Silkworth in 1933..." They take it for granted that alcoholism is a disease,

which is perhaps not surprising given that the Hazelden organisation is part of

the treatment "industry", so not entirely disinterested. Medical insurers would

fund treatment for a disease - but almost certainly not for a spiritual

awakening!



Apropos TBTSIA, Bill Dotson's story does not appear in the original manuscript.

Dr Bob's story (headed "The Doctor's Nightmare") is followed by "The

Unbeliever". The last personal story ("Smile With Me, At Me") runs from pp152-5.

On the next page there is a list of further stories: 156-9: Barber - A Close

Shave; 158-160 Hunt - "Intellectual Agnostic". 161-7: Furlong(?) - "Another

Prodigal Story". 168-71: Stanley - The Car Smashed. 172-5: Hindsight - Williams

(?). 176-8: Maher(?) - On His Way. 179-80: the Alcoholic's Wife - An alcoholic's

wife. 181-6: Campbell - An Artist's Concept. 187-90: Tate - The Rolling Stone.

191-6: California(n) Lone (indecipherable).



- - - -



From: John Barton <jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)



For historical accuracy I would offer the following:



As I much as I love the Big Book there are any number of papers and books that

are far more "definitive" regarding "alcoholism" and what it is or isn't. I

recently mentioned background material from Kurtz and White both of whom refer

back to Jellinek as the most "definitive" work to date. AA as a whole has or

should not have any opinion on the definition of alcoholism (since we/they are

drunks and not Doctors or Medical Scientists) and having an opinion on a

controversial subject that is outside the realm of their primary purpose will

bring controversy. Bill was careful and certainly correct not to get involved

in any debate regarding what alcoholism is or isn't. Somebody mentioned Bill's

talk in 1960 to the NCCA which is about as "definitive" as you can get regarding

Bill's and AA's position on the matter, straight from the horse's mouth.



As AA historians and history lovers we might do well to follow AA's lead and

not debate the concept, but certainly document the history and the conclusions

of the Medical Societies and the experts who have spent years researching the

topic.



Some other points to be considered from this post from a "historical accuracy"

perspective:



The American Medical Association was not an early supporter of either AA or a

disease concept. They pretty much trashed the Big Book when it came out and

again if I'm not mistaken they resisted acknowledging alcoholism officially as

a "disease" until the late sixties or early seventies.



Tiebout made several statements in the 50s expressing his concern regarding the

"disease" classification and was actually worried that the the whole disease

camp was way out on a limb just waiting to be chopped off because they all had

nothing scientific or conclusive in the way of empirical evidence to back up

the definition of alcoholism as a disease.



Dr Bob told Bill that the metaphor of "disease" was the only way to convey the

hopelesness of the situation to the newcomer.



Today, unfortunately, the "conceptual" or "operational" meaning of "disease"

is so broad and loosely applied by just about anyone with a "credential", or any

organization, wherever it makes sense often in a social context, or is PC to do

so, that is has long lost any real "definitive" medical value and truly is

reduced to just a metaphor. Today anything that causes us dis-ease or to be in a

state "without ease" is likely to be called (and by word orgin and

definition, correctly so) a "disease"



Lastly, while I don't question Bill, Hank's overall good or altruistic

intentions, to say with all authority that neither of them were in it for the

money is a long shot. They both (Bill and Hank) wanted to make money. Bob was

about to lose his house (early 1938) and was desperate for money and $3,000 of

the Rockefellar money paid off his mortgage.There were any number of shady

happenings with the book and the stock of Works Publishing. Clarence, Henrietta

and others had grave misgivings about Bill's intentions with money and his

solicitations. The dealings with Rockefellers, soliciting money with the stated

intention of funding operations, money not paid back to various stock and

stake holders all created problems and friction. Wally Von Arx threatened to

sue Bill and Hank if they didn''t pay back money owed to him. Hank at one point,

after he had relapsed, wrote the trustees and alluded to certain embarrasing

money problems that might soon come to light and suggested a healthy

commission on any money a good fund

raiser (perhaps such as himself) might bring in might be a good way to proceed

to put the whole deal on a "business basis," While Bill would give you the coat

off his back I believe he did hope to be financially "restored" through the

movement and said so on more than one occasion though not necessarily in so many

words. Don't forget he signed a royaly agreement with the trustess not long

after agreeing with Hank that only Bob would receive royalties. He went back on

that agreement. Bill had Bob endorsing his early royalty checks back to Bill as

Bob didn't really want the money and Bill was quite hard up for dough. Lots of

"stuff" behind the scenes not all of it "ethical" or pure in motive and I'm

quite sure that one day more will be revealed out of the GSO archives and the

files that have not been made available to researchers.I seem to recall

reading but can not quote the source at the moment that it was

Father Dowling who lowered the boom on Bill

and told him that this (profiting on AA) could never happen and that was quite a

let down for Bill. Money issues and accusations regarding Bill's motives

coming from some of his "friends and supporters" certainly contributed to Bill

sinking back into depression in the early forties.



Hope I haven't offended anyone!



God Bless



John B.



- - - -



From: LES COLE <elsietwo@msn.com> (elsietwo at msn.com)



Hi All:



Whatever the source of definitions, various uses over time, etc...... it seems

to me that the "practical" word is "illness"!



A "disease" is a communicatable condition...like measles. An "illness" refers

to something that one person has. In common usage, an illness is not

"catchable"!



Les

Colorado Springs, CO


0 -1 0 0
7343 Ben Hammond
Re: atheists and agnostics, meaning of the term religion atheists and agnostics, meaning of the term religion 4/27/2011 10:01:00 PM


From Ben Hammond, Laurie Andrews, Robert Stonebraker, Dougbert, Cliff Bishop,

Baileygc23, Larry Tooley (and Amelia)



- - - -



From: Ben Hammond <mlb9292@gmail.com> (mlb9292 at gmail.com)



Thanks Amelia for this post.** I sent it out to my History Lovers maillist.



I met you in San Antonio ... God Bless You ... Old Ben



Ben & Mary Lynn Hammond

5126 S. St. Louis Av

Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105

918 313 4059



- - - -



Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics



From: Laurie Andrews <jennylaurie1@hotmail.com> (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



CF William James (The Varieties of Religious Experience, Lecture 20,

Conclusions): "Taking creeds and faith states together, as forming 'religions',

and treating these as purely subjective phenomena, without regard to the

question of their 'truth', we are obliged, on account of their extraordinary

influence upon action and endurance, to class them amongst the most important

biological functions of mankind.



Their stimulant and anaesthetic effect is so

great that Professor Leuba, in a recent article, goes so far as to say that so

long as men can USE their God, they care very little who he is, or even whether

he is at all. 'The truth of the matter can be put,' says Leuba, 'in this way;

God is not known, he is not understood; he is used ... sometimes as moral

support, sometimes as friend, sometimes as an object of love. If he proves

himself useful, the religious consciousness asks no more than that.



Does God

really exist? How does he exist? What is he? are so many irrelevant questions.

Not God, but life, more life, a larger, richer, more satisfying life, is, in the

last analysis, the end of religion. The love of life, at any and every level of

development, is the religious impulse.



At this purely subjective rating,

therefore, Religion must be considered vindicated in a certain way from the

attacks of her critics. It would seem that she cannot be a mere anachronism and

survival, but must exert a permanent function, whether she be with or without

intellectual content, and whether, if she have any, it be true or false."



The "stimulant and anaesthetic effect" of religion echo Jung in his letter to

Bill W: "His (Rowland H's) craving for alcohol (stimulant and anaesthetic) was

the equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for

wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God."



- - - -



From: "Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@comcast.net>



Historically speaking, in what context does the BB use term religion?



A quote from Paul's recent message about Dr. Carl Jung: "Anyhow,

historically speaking - if that's the terminology - at some point in history

it doesn't seem to have mattered much, unless "organized religion" is

connoted to mean "religion."



I am also not sure what conceptual parameters Dr. Jung used to envelope his

writings on religion. This however, opens another subject: What does the

Big Book mean when it expresses religion?



I would seem the writers of the Big Book were very open in their references

to the term "religion." Page 87 encourages us to see where "religious

people are right." The sentence above tells that we are pointed toward

several diverse religious organizations: "Suggestions about these may be

obtained from ones priest, minister or rabbi." . . . and on page xx we

find: ". . . we include Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, and a sprinkling of

Moslems and Buddhists."



Interestingly, the writers of the Big Book were hesitant to point or use

phrases that would associate AA with the Oxford Group from which they

sprung. In the 'Original Working Manuscript' there is to be found hand

written phrases such as: "This is absolutely Too Groupy." (ms page 43).

Also to be found are scribbled warnings such as "Should be studied from the

mold angle" (ms page 43), which pertains to not getting caught in the mold

of the Oxford Group teaching.



So, the point I mean to empathize here is that the writers of the Big Book

welcomed all religious denominations, but were careful not to exclaim a

preference, e.g., one above the other.



Bob S.



P.S. I find it of more than passing interest that the word 'God' is

mentioned 242 times in the third edition of the Big Book. (A Concordance to

Alcoholics Anonymous, by Steven and Francis Poe - 1990)



- - - -



From: Dougbert <dougbert8@yahoo.com> (dougbert8 at yahoo.com)



Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics



Jared and Glenn,



Richard Peabody was a success by any metric used in the recovery industry. I

strongly suggest rereading his message of empowerment and self-control. His

approach is more aligned to Buddhism than to Christianity. Bill W. did a lot of

plagiarizing when he attempted to put a Christian spin on self discipline.



Richard Peabody, Peabody Movement-1930's wrote a book called Common Sense Of

Drinking stressed physical condition (medical) surrender, deflation at depth

removal of doubts and anxieties control of thoughts control of will power

self-expression.



An individual becomes an alcoholic for three main reasons:

1. As a result of inheritance. He possesses a nervous system which is

non-resistant to alcohol. (In no sense is a direct craving transmitted from

parent to offspring.)

2. By reason of his early environment. Through the ignorance of his parents or

from their own nervous constitution, the alcoholic was either spoiled or

neglected. He was not brought up to face the world courageously. He is lacking

in self-reliance, no matter how physically brave he may be or how bold he may

appear on the surface. Psychologically, he is unable to stand on his own two

feet. As a result of this, he unconsciously craves a stimulant-narcotic.

3. Because of the effects of his later environment. That is to say, school,

college, economic and social competition, marriage, and, for one generation at

least, the World War.

Richard R. Peabody, The Common Sense of Drinking, 1930, pp. 185-186

From History of the big book by Donald B



As Fate would have it, Bill trained at the Officers Training Camp at

Plattsburgh, New York, during the Summer of 1917, and was commissioned a Second

Lieutenant in the Coastal Artillery. During the Summer, Richard Rodgers Peabody

trained there and was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the Artillery. Here

are a few phrases from Peabody's aforementioned book:



Half measures were of no avail... p.99;

Once a drunkard always a drunkard... p.82;

The story of the retired businessman... p.123



Copyright 1930, 1931, By Richard R. Peabody. Published April, 1931. The Atlantic

Monthly Press Books Are Published by Little, Brown, And Company In Association

With The Atlantic Monthly Company. Book is dedicated to: Courtenay Baylor. 191

pages.



Doug



- - - -



From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM)



Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics



While I am a believer, I respect Doug's point. In my years in Alcoholics

Anonymous, I have not yet seen a chronic alcoholic say I came to A.A. to

find God. Many of us have had more than enough invitations, suggestions and

directions from well meaning people that we need to find God before we had

the opportunity to learn there is a way to live a sober and purposeful

life. Just remember Bill's reaction when his ole drinking buddy said, "I've

got religion." Bill went to work on his 2 quarts of Bathtub Gin. Just a

thought.



We recover by the Steps we take, not the meetings we make!



IN GOD WE TRUST



In God's love and service,



Cliff Bishop

214-350-1190

http://www.ppgaadallas.org/



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics



AA says, "Surely there is none which more jealously guards the

individual's right to think, talk, and act as he wishes."

Carl Jung did come down on group thinking, and a couple of his opinions

have been posted on the history lovers.



- - - -



From: "Larry Tooley" <wa9guu@charter.net> (wa9guu at charter.net)



Pamphlet on atheists and agnostics



My sponsor knew an atheist who said he used the group as a higher power.

Also heard around the tables if you don't find something around the 7th or

8th step you will go out drinking again. That means church or Spiritual

belief.



________________________________________



**Original message from Amelia <intuited@earthlink.net> (intuited at

earthlink.net)



> The AA Grapevine has published two books of stories, Spiritual Awakenings

> (2003) and Spiritual Awakenings II (2010) that cover a broad array of

> perceptions and experiences of the journey in sobriety. It includes a

> variety of religious and non-religious perspectives. There is a little bit

> for everyone, in any state of questioning. I was very inspired by these

> books. I wish they were spoken of more in the program. We have so much

> literature that most meetings only carry the very basics. I have

> increasingly found that the "concept of God" is often reductionistic, not

> used in the historical evolution of the word, misinterpreted, and just not

> useful. So more and more I just use the word "Power." It certainly helps me

> with my understanding of quantum physics, photon light, space between

> particles, entanglement theory, etc.

>

> Many of us in our town were struggling with this problem of the newcomer

> hearing the "God-talk" and being confused. So we started a

> speaker/discussion meeting called "Journey of the Heart" and have several

> sentences in our format emphasizing the acceptance of all paths, encouraging

> unity in diversity. Its amazing how many members don't have a traditional

> concept of God as their greater power. And the way they experience this

> "knowing" is very unique. In fact, some describe this knowing as their

> intuition. Our last speaker described it as a wind blowing through him when

> he did the 6th and 7th.

>

> I think what Gerry from New Orleans said is right on: "Many believe that

> the traditional notion of "God" does not really exist, and understand that

> the word is simply a metaphor or symbol of the indefinable and unknown Power

> which is the source of all that exists, especially love, beauty, truth,

> justice, compassion and similar qualities."

>

> Amelia


0 -1 0 0
7344 Laurie Andrews
Buddhists are not atheists but non-theists Buddhists are not atheists but non-theists 4/29/2011 4:06:00 AM


"I suppose no one would claim that ... Buddhists are Atheists."



-- a statement in message #7338 from "J. Lobdell"

<jlobdell54@hotmail.com> jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



Jared said that "No one would claim that ... Buddhists are atheists." But to

Buddhists, belief in God is irrelevant, as exemplified in the famous story about

the man struck by a poisoned arrow. He does not speculate on the identity of the

archer or the nature of the poison - he pulls the arrow out!



Buddhism is not about theology, but living rightly (CF "The spiritual life is

not a theory, we have to live it").



"A minister in Thailand wrote, 'We took AA's 12 Steps to the largest Buddhist

monastery in this province, and the head priest said, 'Why, these Steps are

fine! For us as Buddhists, it might be slightly more acceptable if you had

inserted the word "good" in your Steps instead of "God". Nevertheless, you say

that it it is God as you understand Him, and that must certainly include the

good. Yes, AA's 12 Steps will surely be accepted by Buddhists around here." (AA

Comes of Age, page 81)



"... we question very much whether our Buddhist members in Japan would ever have

joined this Society had AA stamped itself a strictly Christian movement..."

(Letter 1954, As Bill Sees It, page 34)



"By personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews,

Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists..." (Big Book, 2nd edition

foreword, 1955).



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator: the technical term for this kind of position, held by

some Buddhist groups, is "non-theism." Zen Buddhism is a well known form of

Buddhism which holds this position.


0 -1 0 0
7345 ricktompkins
Earl T. (Chicago) and Third Tradition: Short and Long Form Earl T. (Chicago) and Third Tradition: Short and Long Form 4/25/2011 11:24:00 PM


Hello Joanna in Area 10 Colorado,



This unedited excerpt of research is sourced from the Chicago Area 19

Archives, the AA Archives at the General Service Office, and the Archives at

the Stepping Stones Foundation, and was written as part of a 'carry-along'

given to Archives Room attendees at an Illinois State AA Conference in 2002.



Bear with me about the background and quick development of the Short Form of

Tradition Three (as well as the other eleven); your accurate answer is here

and has much to do with Earl T. of Chicago:



"Earl T. got sober in 1937 under the sponsorship of Dr. Bob after visits

with his family in the Akron area, and it was two years before there were

other new members to hold the first Illinois AA meeting. Bill, very close to

Dr. Bob and the Akron Group, may have known about Earl but most likely

didn't meet him until the 1940 Chicago visit.



Friends by letter and telephone from the start, Bill stayed with Earl and

his wife Katie during that first 1940 winter trip. And, at every Illinois

visit during the 1940s, Bill and Lois (when she accompanied him) stayed with

them. Lois Wilson's handwritten desk telephone book had Earl and Katie's

Illinois numbers for every year's new book beginning with her 1940 entry.

The two families kept in touch with each other.



The favor was returned as early as 1946 when Earl visited New York and

stayed at Bill and Lois' Stepping Stones home north of Manhattan. Bill also

trusted Earl enough to ask him to report to the Alcoholic Foundation Board

meetings in 1947, covering for Bill who was away on a trip, and he nominated

Earl to the AF Board as an AA Trustee in 1949, replacing Dr. Bob, who had

lost his dear Anne and faced his own final fight of cancer.



Dozens of letters between the two friends, Bill and Earl, are in the files

of the GSO Archives, and the correspondence shows a strong bond of caring,

insights to early AA life, and the enthusiasm for AA service growth. Nell

Wing, Bill's long-term secretary and AA's first Archivist at the General

Service Office, recalled that our Short Form of the Twelve Traditions is

directly attributed to Earl's friendly suggestions to Bill."



Bill would later speak (I can't remember where but I've read a transcript)

about a brief 1949 collaboration with his good friend Earl on the

Traditions, when Earl convinced Bill that "most AAs would not stand still

for a long form but might sit still long enough to understand a short one"

or a phrase very close to that. There may be further sources in AA Comes of

Age or Pass It On, but I have found that "directly attributed to Earl's

friendly suggestions" is the honest truth of how and why the Short Form came

about: out of friendship, insight, and with simplicity in mind.



Hope this snippet of archival fact helps your article.



Yours in fellowship,



Rick T., Illinois


0 -1 0 0
7346 Sober186@aol.com
Re: Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form Third Tradition: Short Form and Long Form 4/25/2011 8:51:00 PM


If one wants to see some well researched information about the long and short

form of the traditions what was the actual language approved at the big meeting

in Cleveland and more, one need look no further than post #5520 on this group.



I will quote a small portion from that post. (yhe Reference to LOH means the

statement is contained in the publication Language Of The Heart.)



"Contrary to popular belief, the short form of the Traditions were not approved

at the 1950 Convention, Bill W did not recite either the short or the long form

of the Traditions to the attendees. Instead, he paraphrased and summarized a

variation of the Traditions that is preserved in LOH 121. This is what Bill W

read and was approved:



"That, touching all matters affecting AA unity, our common welfare should come

first;



that AA has no human authority - only God as he may speak in our Group

Conscience;



that our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern;



that any alcoholic may become an AA member if he says so - we exclude no one;



that every AA Group may manage its own affairs as it likes, provided surrounding

groups are not harmed thereby;



that we AAs have but a single aim, the carrying of our message to the alcoholic

who still suffers;



that in consequence we cannot finance, endorse or otherwise lend the name

'Alcoholics Anonymous' to any other enterprise, however worthy;



that AA, as such, ought to remain poor, lest problems of property,

management and money divert us from our sole aim;



that we ought to be self-supporting, gladly paying our small expenses ourselves;



that AA should remain forever non-professional, ordinary 12th Step work never to

be paid for;



that, as a Fellowship, we should never be organized but may nevertheless create

responsible Service Boards or Committees to insure us better propagation and

sponsorship and that these agencies may engage fulltime workers for special

tasks;



that our public relations ought to proceed upon the principle of attraction

rather than promotion, it being better to let our friends recommend us;



that personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and pictures ought to be

strictly maintained as our best protection, against the temptations of power or

personal ambition;



and finally, that anonymity before the general public is the spiritual key to

all our Traditions, ever reminding us we are always to place principles before

personalities, that we are actually to practice a genuine humility.



This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall

forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all."



Following Bill's summation, the attendees unanimously approved the

Traditions by standing vote.



Notably missing from what Bill recited to the attendees were the principles in

Tradition 10 of AA having no opinion on outside issues and not drawing the AA

name into public controversy.



Nevertheless, the attendees unanimously approved what Bill W presented. (AACOA

43, PIO 338, LOH 117-124)



As an aside, I have read elsewhere, Dr. Bob, who was near death left for the

hotel and home after his short speech. Dr. bob was not particularly in favor of

the fellowship adopting any traditions. -- Bill, let's not screw this thing up.

keep it simple.-- or words close to that.



However, I don't believe he was there when the standing vote was taken, so we

will probably never know how he resolved what he saw as a conflict.



Jim L. Central Ohio


0 -1 0 0
7347 corafinch
Re: Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity 4/27/2011 8:56:00 AM


Paul gets into some interesting and complex issues here. There is too much to

respond in one post, but I'd like to try to approach some of the issues based on

the letters and manuscripts I've seen. Jung wrote an enormous amount of

material, and although I've read some of I am far below the level of expert.



Paul and I would probably agree on the value of the synchronicity concept. I

don't know how important it actually was to Jung, and certainly the rest of his

work does not rise and fall on the value of that one idea. The beginnings of AA

seem to me to have involved multiple cultural, medical and religious changes

taking place at the time. "Overdetermination" might even be a better

interpretation than synchronicity.



I do believe that Jung identified two different levels of spiritual or religious

development. For people who are capable of the most demanding approach,

spiritual development or individuation takes a lifetime of involvement with

analysis, study, introspection and interaction with similarly enlightened

people. When Jung said nice things about religion, it was generally in reference

to the "common" sort of person, of whom no more could really be expected.



Initially, Jung saw Rowland Hazard as the kind of person who is highly

intelligent and capable of maximal insight. The demands of Jungian-style

spirituality are such that few can aspire to them. Later, Jung realized that the

alcoholism and general personality structure were so problematic that the best

Rowland could hope for would be stability based on close association with a

fellowship of some kind. That would have been a serious demotion, in Jung's

eyes, but preferable to slow death by alcohol.



As for the Richard Noll books, they are entertaining but I really don't think

anyone takes them terribly seriously. Jung was certainly a guru-type figure to

his disciples. However, the idea that he had ambitions to establish some arcane

and persistent cult, Aryan or otherwise, is silly.



Cora


0 -1 0 0
7348 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Paul on Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA Paul on Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA 4/26/2011 6:08:00 PM


Paul (and others),



I read but rarely jump into this list's discussions because it really is time

for someone to produce a comprehensive history of AA that will replace *Not-God*

as sort of a standard. As noted recently by Paul, my book -- which began as a

doctoral dissertation -- concentrated on the place of AA in the ongoing history

of "religious ideas" broadly understood. We need to learn more about the

economic and sociological aspects of AA, to mention but two other areas that cry

out for investigation. And there are errors in *Not-God* uncovered by later

research, for example about Roland Hazard and Dr. Carl Jung. I have met one

person, Kevin Hanlon, who the last I knew was working on a film about AA, who

struck me as having the interest and talent and resources to produce such a

work.



Sadly, over the years this field has lost such promising researchers as Bill

Pittman and Merton Minter. Others, such as Mitchell K., have been forced by

circumstances to work on other projects, such as making a living. Also, too

many academics have had to drop promising projects because the very richness of

the resources means those projects would take more than the available time in

this era of "publish or perish." [For any as yet unaware, AA's NY GSO archives

are in the process of being digitized.] Still others, for example the

indefatigable Bill White, have been spread thin by their generous commitment to

serve primarily the treatment constituency.



Especially, however, at this time when pressure again grows to interpret AA

through a narrow lens such as that of one type of Evangelical Christianity or

shards of the "mind-cure" movement that flourished in late 19th-century America,

there is a very real need for a carefully comprehensive retelling of the AA

story, researched according to historical standards. As one word of

encouragement more than caution, I close with words from Hannah Arendt's study

of *The Human Condition*:



Action reveals itself fully only to the storyteller, that is, to the backward

glance of the historian, who indeed always knows better what it was all about

than the participants. All accounts told by the actors themselves, though they

may in rare cases give an entirely trustworthy statement of intentions, aims,

and motives, become mere useful source material in the historian's hands and can

never match his story in significance and truthfulness. What the storyteller

narrates must necessarily be hidden from the actor himself, at least as long as

he is in the act or caught in its consequences, because to him the

meaningfulness of his act is not in the story that follows. Even though stories

are the inevitable results of action, it is not the actor but the storyteller

who preceives and "makes" the story.



Respectfully, and also hopefully,



ernie kurtz


0 -1 0 0
7349 J. Lobdell
RE: Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA 4/27/2011 9:08:00 AM


On the matter of the "Messengers to Ebby" (Rowland-III, Shep, Cebe) see material

seriatim in CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY QUARTERLY [CASQ] Newsletter of the

Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown, on the Brown Library website, especially Volumes

2(1) through 4(4), with 4(5) and following in preparation. There is also a note

(pp. 15-18) on Trysh's book in the form of an interview between the CASQ editor

and the forty-year-sober alcoholic Jane S (author of Q & A: Alcoholism and

Sobriety**) in CASQ 4(3) that may be of interest. Both the CASQ editor and Trysh

have served as Kirk Fellows at Brown, and Jane S has also been involved with the

Kirk program.



__________________________________________

**Jane S., Q & A: Alcoholism and Sobriety

http://hindsfoot.org/kqa1.html


0 -1 0 0
7350 pvttimt@aol.com
Re: Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA 4/27/2011 12:53:00 PM


"My estimate is that a so-called tensor analysis (matrix entries are vector

rather than scalor) where "relativistic" components re 'recovery-infused pop

cultural' for instance a la Trysh Travis."



At the risk of being anti-intellectual ... WHAT??



- - - -



Sentence quoted from message #7339 from "Paul"

<spectrumptg@yahoo.com> (spectrumptg at yahoo.com)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7339


0 -1 0 0
7351 awuh1
Re: Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity 4/26/2011 9:30:00 PM


I must admit to a sensing a certain bias in the posting Carl Jung - spiritual

vs. religious, and synchronicity. At the time of the senders response to Mr.

Stonebreakes "A Pre-AA History Book, A Study of Synchronic Events", he admits to

finishing neither that work nor the seminal work by Carl Jung "Synchronicity, An

Acasual Connecting Principle". At the same time he states that he "read Noll's

book(s) more carefully".



The poster refers to Noll's book, "The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic

Movement", as "scholarly research" and offers up support for this proposition

via the Princeton University Press nomination of it for an award (they are, not

coincidentally, the publishers of the book, and, it did not get the award).



The reviews of the book were far from universally positive. In the Journal,

"Bulletin of the History of Medicine" Volume 70, Number 3, Fall 1996 they write,

"In the guise of a scholarly text on the history of science, Richard Noll has

written a polemic in which he makes unfounded speculations about Jung's personal

and professional life. Specifically, he accuses Jung of having established a

neopagan religious sect, a so-called Jung Cult. As evidence for this accusation,

he offers his own questionable interpretations of Jung's writings ... "



Personally I thought that this review of Noll's book was kind, given some of the

propositions put forth in his "research".



With regard to spiritual vs. religious ... I think the poster is correct, most

of those familiar with AA history regard it as both old hat, AND splitting

hairs.



Regards,



Tom



________________________________________

A response to Message #7334 from "Paul"

<spectrumptg@yahoo.com> (spectrumptg at yahoo.com)



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7334


0 -1 0 0
7352 Tim Ruckle
Brooklyn meeting with lineage back to Bill''s house? Brooklyn meeting with lineage back to Bill''s house? 5/3/2011 9:52:00 AM


I am staying in Brooklyn and have heard that there is an AA meeting here that

has a lineage going back to the meetings Bill held in his house. Is this true? 

If so, where and when are the meetings?



Thanks!



Tim R


0 -1 0 0
7353 Paul
Re: Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA Travis - Language of the Heart - Traditionalist AA vs. GSO AA 4/27/2011 9:43:00 AM


I received a private correspondence about this from an AAHistoryLovers

group member which made me realize some things might have been better

posed as questions:



Was not "There is a God, and you're not Him!" fairly broad (almost

universal by some standards) AA vernacular by the time Kurtz composed

his AA History?



And if so, why was it overlooked, and perhaps hitherto (by Kurtz and/or

others)?



Is any of that even "important?" What, REALLY, is the importance of AA

vernacular, in a historical sense?



From where I sit, at this moment in time, I'm mainly interested in answer(s),

provisional or otherwise, to only the first of these questions.



___________________________________________



From G.C. the moderator:



The first edition of Ernest Kurtz, Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous,

came out in 1979, over thirty years ago.



He starts on page vii with a quote from page 62 of the Big Book: "First of all

we had to quit playing God." So the idea goes back to 1939 at least (the date of

publication of the Big Book, over seventy years ago).



During the period when Kurtz was a young doctoral student in the History of

American Civilization at Harvard University (i.e. during the 1970's, over thirty

years ago), he would slip over to Harvard Divinity School on occasion. Some of

the Divinity School faculty at that time were strongly affected by Protestant

Neo-Orthodox theology (also called crisis theology or dialectical theology) --

the Swiss theologian Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebuhr, Paul Tillich, etc. -- and

their idea that the root of all human sinfulness was the human desire to play

God.



Barth's commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, which came out in 1919 (over

ninety years ago), was the first great manifesto of that movement.



I don't think that looking at current AA popular vernacular phrases is very

useful here, if you are looking for the source of that idea. Not unless you can

show that these AA vernacular phrases already existed and were in use at a very

early period, prior to 1939.



Ernie says in his book that he got the idea of the importance of the "not-God"

phrase from the Big Book itself. From my own memories of what was talked about

at the best American divinity schools during the 1960's and 1970's, I feel sure

that Ernie's sensitivity to the importance of this idea in the Big Book was

greatly heightened by the influence of the overall American theological context

of that time -- Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebuhr, etc.



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
7354 Fritz
When was Anne Smith admitted to St. Thomas Hospital? When was Anne Smith admitted to St. Thomas Hospital? 5/1/2011 10:04:00 PM


While studying Chapter XXVIII of Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, "Without

Anne, but with loving friends", our group came across an undefined set of dates

pertaining to Anne's last days.

The last paragraph on page 327 states "When they came back, he called me

early one morning and asked me to come over. He said,"Mama hasn't been well.

We both knew she as seriously ill. So we took her to St. Thomas. She lasted

six or seven days.

The question we seem to be puzzled about is,"What day was Anne admitted to

St. Thomas hospital? We know Anne passed on June 01,1949 but have not been able

to find any verifiable dates to when she was actually admitted to the hospital.

The second question we have is about the date they returned from their visit

with Smitty in Texas, as we believe this would help in determining her admission

to St. Thomas. Any help or direction for locating someone in either Akron or

Cleveland would be appreciated with this puzzle we have stumbled across.



Love and Tolerance of others,

Fritz from Lorain


0 -1 0 0
7355 MattD
Re: Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy Red-Headed A.A. nurse Known as Teddy 5/7/2011 11:49:00 AM


AAHL Group,

Does anyone happen to know about the date of birth and death for Teddy Rowan?

(By the lack of posts I'd guess probably not.)



Matt D.



- - - -



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

ron.fulkerson@... wrote:

>

> Tommy,

>

> She told her story in the Saturday Evening Post magazine 10/18/1952.

>

> ronf

>


0 -1 0 0
7356 The Wilsons
Looking out from inside a glass fish bowl Looking out from inside a glass fish bowl 5/7/2011 1:01:00 AM


Greetings



In one of the stories in one of the editions of the Big Book, the writer made

reference to looking at things as though he/she was in a glass fish bowl looking

out. Does anyone know which story that might be?



Thanks Bob


0 -1 0 0
7357 AAHistoryLovers member
Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism 4/30/2011 5:12:00 PM


This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray

Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the

best and necessary way to treat alcoholism.



Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to

include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of

speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary.



Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the

relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic

was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent

him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done

wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had

repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it

and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what

are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a

doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a

doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people

and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second

time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than

Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is

pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will."[71]


0 -1 0 0
7358 CloydG
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol 4/30/2011 4:31:00 PM


From Clyde G. and Mike Portz



- - - -



"CloydG" <cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>

(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)



According to my research, the National Council of Alcoholism was founded in

1944. After years of discussion, the AMA finally declared alcoholism a disease

in 1956. My opinion is, Dr. Silkworth was ahead of his time. His fear of

publicly stating his theory towards alcoholism as a disease was because such a

theory was considered heresy by his medical benefactors. Still, the little

doctor did his best to convince Bill W. of the malady of his disease, that he

had an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind.



To equivocate our thinking today with those of the day when AA came of age, is

simply inaccurate. Meaning, we don't have the same abilities to think today as

they did when no one knew of a solution that could help alcoholics; not with any

certainty of course.



Today AA is primarily based as a fellowship of men and women who practice a

Spiritual way of living through a set of principals that enable them to live,

"One Day At A Time", immune from having to take a drink to live. No amount of

History seeking to define how all of this happened is available. As even the

memories from one drunk to another, which were at best seemingly similar, were

all too often confused; certainly in a time line anyway, in knowing how AA

worked things out as an illness of both mind and body.



Simply put, every alcoholic involved who participated in the writing of the

original manuscript, alcoholic or not, differed from place to place; Akron

members differed with those in Cleveland and they both differed with those in

NY. Yet, it was all pieced together to the majorities acceptance, then finally

put into print. Though certainly not perfect for Historians, it still worked for

alcoholics! Clyde G.



- - - -



From: Mike Portz <mportz2000@yahoo.com> (mportz2000 at yahoo.com)



Howdy Ms. Laurie and Mr. John Barton,



Thanks much for your comments on the "disease of alcoholism." They are very much

appreciated.



I believe you are absolutely correct about Dr. Silkworth not mentioning the word

disease in his opinion. I would guess that he did this to, again, not create any

controversy or cause offense to the AMA medical powers of the time. Your

probably aware that he also would not allow his name to be printed in the first

edition. It did not start appearing until the 2nd edition. He insisted upon this

because he feared losing his medical license to practice. That's how cautionary

he was about writing his opinion. All historical accounts are that he wanted to

do everything he could for A.A., but he had to make a living also.



He also, again in order to not cause controversy or offense, insisted upon

calling his correspondence an opinion, as opposed to more adamant wording

stating or insinuating that his statements were factual or had been proven. They

were solely his opinion.



As far as their being no "universal consensus" that alcoholism IS a disease, I

really have no idea. However the American Medical Association (AMA) does accept

it as a disease and it is defined by the AMA as " a primary, chronic disease

with genetic, psychosocial and environmental factors influencing its development

and manifestations." That definition certainly works for me and I'd take a

educated guess that the AMA's opinion holds a majority of opinions in the good

old USA. That is for anyone who cares if it is a disease. I'd guess that it

makes little difference even to most A.A.'s and their loved ones. They're just

glad we have a way to get well.



As for Bill Wilson's (the compiler) wording"the medical estimate of the plan of

recovery," I would think that this wording may have been chosen by Bill and

agreed to by other members "of the 'first 100'" to show respect and to honor

Dr. Silkworth's request and statement that his opinion not be referred to as

fact. Reckon he had a "cautionary fear."



I hope this information helps to give you a clearer insight.



Mr. John your statement that there are "far more definitive" books on the

disease of alcoholism is without question, correct. Please forgive my incorrect

comment to the contrary that was not definitive in regards to my intention. My

intention, my thought was to state that I was speaking about the "treatment that

puts the disease/illness/malady/sickness" of alcoholism into remission. I must

say that for this alkie, I'm much more interested in the treatment for

remission, and thus a real and productive life, then how a alkie acts or how the

liquid poisons my body's systems and organs that will eventually lead to my

early or instant death. I always knew it would, I just wanted to find a way to

stop it from happening.



I am aware that because of the direction of physicians like Dr. Silkworth and

other members of its medical fellowship (all who were or became great supporters

of Alcoholics Anonymous), that the AMA, the most generally and publicly accepted

medical association in America, has progressed enough to agree with the majority

opinions of most of its members and has accepted and defined alcoholism as a

disease.



I don't see what we call it really makes a dang difference to any real alcoholic

in recovery. I think the bottom line for most of us alkies is that the Creator

gave us a method that now allows for a way to treat are historically fatal

malady.



As far as Dr. Bob "really not wanting the money," I'd be very appreciative of

you could refer me to where I can read up on that statement. I've been reading

historic information that is quite contrary to your information. I never would

have thought he wanted to lose his house, etc.? Oh well, I'm just searching for

the facts.



I agree that probably the most important things to Mr. Hank Parkhurst was making

money off of the deal and gaining fame. Heck, Clarence Snyder, because of false

info from Mr. Hank, was even of the notion that maybe even Dr. Bob and Mr. Bill

were misdirecting funds into their own pockets. Of course Bob and Bill both had

financial records to prove otherwise.



Yeah Bill wanted an income. He wanted to have his own place to stay in and not

have to have Lois and himself be "boarded" through the kindness of other A.A.'s

and not theirselves. I'd bet that he wanted things like a car, nice clothes and

other niceties for Lois. You know the things everyman would like to have for his

wife, his loved ones and his self. But to say Bill Wilson wasn't altruistic to

the extreme, to imply he was in it for the money, well I sure wish you'd refer

me to where I can read about that. The only thing I've ever heard on it is

undocumented opinions in meetings from A.A.'s who seem to have good intentions

but also have contacted the character defect of believing everything they hear

in meetings and accepting it for gospel. Not that we don't hear quite a bit of

good stuff in meetings, but I gotta admit where I go to meetings there's also a

few members who seem to have "kissed the blarney stone." If you get my drift.



So you sure "haven't offended" me John. It's just that there's just some of what

you say that I'd like to get a hold the documentation so I can pass around

factual information and have a clear conscience about it.



This is definitely my last post on the "disease concept."



Kind regards in fellowship

Mike Portz


0 -1 0 0
7359 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism 5/8/2011 12:22:00 PM


Source, please?



ernie kurtz



- - - -



On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:12 PM, AAHistoryLovers.member wrote:



> This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray

Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the

best and necessary way to treat alcoholism.

>

> Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to

include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of

speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary.

>

> Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the

> relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic

was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent

him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done

wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had

repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it

and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what

are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a

doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a

doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people

and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second

time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than

Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is

pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will."[71]


0 -1 0 0
7360 Michael Gwirtz
Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism 5/8/2011 1:21:00 PM


What is the source of this quote by this anonymous member?





Shakey Mike Gwirtz

NAAAW2011 in Helena,Montana



- - - -



On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:12 PM, UnknownSender@UnknownDomain wrote:



> This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to portray

Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious cures as the

best and necessary way to treat alcoholism.

>

> Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to

include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of

speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary.

>

> Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the

> relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic

was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent

him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done

wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had

repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it

and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what

are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a

doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a

doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people

and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second

time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than

Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is

pathological, Jesus won't help him but the d octor will."[71]


0 -1 0 0
7361 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism 5/8/2011 2:29:00 PM


From Baileygc23 and Glenn C -- online source of the Jung quotation



- - - -



Carl Jung on the Oxford Group



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group



Carl Jung became aware of the Oxford Group in the 1920s when Alphonse Maeder,

his colleague and former assistant, became involved with the movement. Although

Jung recognized that troubled patients sometimes gained a sense of security,

purpose and belonging from Group involvement, in his view there was a sacrifice

in personal individuation. He therefore did not understand what attraction the

group could have for someone with the psychoanalytic sophistication of Maeder.

For a time Jung was respectful of Maeder's convictions, but when his

relationship with Maeder deteriorated in the 1930s his attitude toward the

Oxford Group also became more negative.[70]



Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the

relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical alcoholic

was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model and sent

him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had done

wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had

repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it

and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what

are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a

doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a

doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people

and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second

time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than

Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is

pathological, Jesus won't help him but the doctor will."[71]



[70] ^ C.G. Jung Letters, selected and edited by Gerhard Adler in collaboration

with Aniela Jaffe, trans. R.F.C. Hull,Volume 1.



[71] ^ Carl Jung, The Symbolic Life, p. 272



- - - -



Spirituality as a cure for alcoholism



http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Carl_Jung



Jung's influence can sometimes be found in more unexpected quarters. For

example, Jung once treated an American patient (Rowland H.) suffering from

chronic alcoholism. After working with the patient for some time, and achieving

no significant progress, Jung told the man that his alcoholic condition was near

to hopeless, save only the possibility of a spiritual experience. Jung noted

that occasionally such experiences had been known to reform alcoholics where all

else had failed. Rowland took Jung's advice seriously and set about seeking a

personal spiritual experience. He returned home to the United States and joined

a Christian evangelical movement known as the Oxford Group. He also told other

alcoholics what Jung had told him about the importance of a spiritual

experience. One of the alcoholics he told was Ebby Thacher, a long-time friend

and drinking buddy of Bill Wilson, later co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous

(AA). Thacher told Wilson about Jung's ideas. Wilson, who was finding it

impossible to maintain sobriety, was impressed and sought out his own spiritual

experience. The influence of Jung thus indirectly found its way into the

formation of Alcoholics Anonymous, the original 12-step program, and from there

into the whole 12-step recovery movement, although AA as a whole is not Jungian

and Jung had no role in the formation of that approach or the 12 steps. The

above claims are documented in the letters of Carl Jung and Bill W., excerpts of

which can be found in Pass It On, published by Alcoholics Anonymous.[16]



Although the detail of this story is disputed by some historians, Jung himself

made reference to its substance -- including the Oxford Group participation of

the individual in question -- in a talk that was issued privately in 1954 as a

transcript from shorthand taken by an attendee (Jung reportedly approved the

transcript), later recorded in Volume 18 of his Collected Works, The Symbolic

Life ("For instance, when a member of the Oxford Group comes to me in order to

get treatment, I say, 'You are in the Oxford Group; so long as you are there,

you settle your affair with the Oxford Group. I can't do it better than Jesus.'

I will tell you a story of such a case. A hysterical alcoholic was cured by this

Group movement..."[17])



[16] ^ Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (1984) Pass It On: The Story of

Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world. New York: Alcoholics

Anonymous World Services, Inc. ISBN 0-916856-12-7, pp. 381-386



[17] ^ Jung, C. G.; Adler, G. and Hull, R. F. C., eds. (1977) Collected Works of

C. G. Jung, Volume 18: The Symbolic Life: Miscellaneous Writings, Princeton, NJ:

Princeton University Press, ISBN 978-0-691-09892-0, p. 272, as noted 2007-08-26

at http://www.stellarfire.org/additional.html


0 -1 0 0
7362 Robt Woodson
Re: When was Anne Smith admitted to St. Thomas Hospital? When was Anne Smith admitted to St. Thomas Hospital? 5/8/2011 9:36:00 AM


Fritz,



A quick call reveals that the telephone number for St. Thomas's Office of

Medical Records is (330) 375-3930.



The office will be open tomorrow...(Monday) at 8:30 AM. The receptionist was

quite friendly and immediately warmed to the subject. The Hospital is ready,

once again, to welcome Founder's Day visitors.in mid-June of this year. The

Street outside the Hospital, that runs from Main Street to Olive Street and that

runs past their Emergency entrance and what was once the Robert Holbrook Smith

Interim Care Center; has been renamed "Dr. Bob's Way".



It was mentioned that those would be very old records ... I know because I was

born there two years before and my birth certificate appears antique ... (LOL)

... good luck and please share your findings.



If I can be more helpful please let me know.



Woody in Akron


0 -1 0 0
7363 Dolores
AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany 5/5/2011 4:56:00 AM


Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA

officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany?



Dolores


0 -1 0 0
7364 John Moore
Re: Chuck Chamberlain Chuck Chamberlain 5/3/2011 6:17:00 PM


Hi Ryan,



This may or may not help much with getting an archive display concerning Chuck

C. I got sober in Laguna Beach in 1971 and went to meetings with Chuck pretty

often, and heard him speak many times around LA and Orange County. His home

group was the Wed Night meeting at women's club in Laguna. He went to Canyon

Club a lot too, but he traveled and spoke at other meetings and conventions a

great deal. I believe that he paid his own way when asked to speak. Since he

was in demand a lot, it cost him a lot, but I heard that he did it as a service.



Chuck ended up with money but he worked hard for it and made a success using the

AA principles. He designed and built the freezer and refrigerator departments

for the Von's supermarket chain. He got the account by doing it for free and

for fun, knowing that if his work was satisfactory, his higher power would make

sure he was remunerated, and if not satisfactory, then fine too. A great model

for guys like me to follow, as I have been doing for many years.



I am pretty sure the Canyon Club was not built or funded by Chuck C. The Canyon

Club of today is a far cry from what it was when I got sober in 1971. It was a

cramped cinderblock structure on Laguna Canyon road and was not in any way

splendid or luxurious. There was a coffee bar and a pool table, restrooms, and

the adjoining meeting room would hold maybe 50 or 100 members, though there was

not enough parking for that many cars.



Chuck often attended the Monday Night Men's meeting at the Club (I was

secretary of that group in 1972). Joe Quinn, Frank O'Rourke, Dr Paul O., Bill

Blake, Cliff R., Ralph Samuelson and other old timers attended.



Here is info I found on the history of the Canyon Club ....



John M

Burlington, Vermont US

contact.johnm@gmail.com



__________________________________________



http://www.canyonclub.org/CANYON_CLUB/ABOUT_US.html



"In 1980 there was a generous gift from the estate of James (Jim) Dilley.

Jim was a bookstore owner from Laguna Beach who had traveled extensively in

Europe and had attended Harvard Divinity School. He was also the town drunk.



Legend has it that every time Jim’s dog Bebo would see a police car

pull up to the curb, he would hop right in. You see, Bebo had become

accustomed to regular trips to the town drunk tank. Jim would later get

sober at the Canyon Club around 1963. He was very active at the Club and

according to sources, became a chief source of financial support for years

when the Club couldn’t pay it’s own way. He was 16 or 17 years sober (best

the old timers can remember) when he died—bequeathing his bookstore to the

Canyon Club in a final gesture of gratitude for all he had found there.



Jim’s gift to the Canyon Club of Dilley’s Bookstore (now Sherwood

Gallery) was later used by the Club’s Board of Trustees to purchase a piece

of commercial property in the canyon.



The Board was feeling the pinch from the membership to find a new Club. It

had been 13 years since Jim’s donation. The commercial property that the

Club already owned was deemed unsuitable for redevelopment as a meeting

space. So a land exchange was brokered from that property to the current

property site—20456 Laguna Canyon Road—a 1.4 acre plot of land.



The building of the Club was underway. A competition for development plans

opened to architects who did non-residential buildings. After reviewing

proposals from three different firms, Peyo & Associates was selected. The

architectural firm had done many previous non-residential projects. Not only

was their price the most competitive, it took into account the spiritual

intent of the building.



Some of the unique design features were: 1) The basic structure had two

wings which were angled to embrace or receive all who entered. 2) The

parking lot was “green” because it was gravel where water would drain into

the ground and not just run off. 3) Trees and landscape were incorporated to

preserve the park-like appearance and decrease the noise from Laguna Canyon

Road.



The winning bid for the Club’s construction came from Young

Construction Co. Both the architect and construction firms gave us very

large discounts. The bid for construction was $333,033.33. (I think three

was his lucky number.)



In regard to day-to-day construction at the site, the architect turned up

everyday to supervise quality of materials as well as his crew. One day I

spoke with him. “You know we cannot pay you for daily supervision. You are

putting in an extremely large amount of time for which we are unable to

compensate.”



He responded with a great story... “When I was in high school I had just

won a scholarship to college and went out to celebrate,” he said.

“Unfortunately I got drunk and arrested by the police that night. Standing

before the judge, I explained that I was a first generation Bulgarian—and

that no one from my country had ever been accepted into Berkeley. I had a

full scholarship and if the DUI went on my record, I would loose the

scholarship. Unbelievably, the judge said, ‘I’m going to expunge your record

this time, but sometime in the future you must make a contribution to help

AA.’ So you see Herman, this is my payback.”



After the project started we noted that we were running short of building

funds due to the many changes we were adding. We conducted fundraising

activities, but were still short. Head of the fundraising committee was

Muriel Zink, so we put the matter in her hands. She asked one of our angels

for a contribution. He said, “How much do you need?” She responded with $30

thousand. He wrote a check then and there.



The time frame from the appointment of the new Trustees to

completion of the building was from April 1993 to November 1993. These are

just a few of the miracles that helped put this new building into place.





– by Herman F."





contact.johnmoore@gmail.com





*

*On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:02 AM, Charley Bill <charley92845@gmail.com>wrote:

*

>

> * *

>

> *Ryan, check with someone at the Canyon Club in Laguna Beach, California.

> Chuck is said to have built it and donated it to the Laguna AAs. It is far

> above any and all 'AA' facilities I have seen in my 41 years of travels in

> and out of sobriety. Good Luck and I think you will find someone there who

> can tell you loads about Chuck. I just knew him scantly, but knew both his

> drivers and one of his would-be biographers(now dead).

>

> There is a branch of the Orange County Central office in Laguna and I * *

> bet they have loads of stuff on Chuck, too. A little group I belong to

> studied A New Pair of Glasses a year or two ago and we were not

> impressed. I remember him as a great orator, but did not know much

> about the content of his speeches as I was new at the time.

>

>

>

> *

> **

>

*

*





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
7365 LES COLE
Re: 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol 1938 dictionary definition of alcohol 5/8/2011 8:53:00 AM


Hi all:



I'd like to toss in one more tid-bit about searching for documentation.



During the past 13 years when I was researching AA history for my book about

Rogers Burnham(not yet published), I orignally found many pieces of information

which I accepted as "facts" because they had been published for all to read.

Later, I found in other sources that some things were actualy "not true" as

proven by data found in court records, etc.



I mention this in connection to what seems to be our wish to establish a

reliable origin for things which occurred in the minds of the AA pioneers back

in the 1930s ...or in places like dictionaries ... so that we may have helpful

guidelines for the way(s) AA-today is (or presumedly "should" ) be practiced

currently.



My position is that we historians can be satisfied by sharing "history" simply

as history, knowing that there probably is no absolute truth to anything, since

circumstances vary and control results.



Les Cole

Colorado Springs, CO


0 -1 0 0
7366 corafinch
Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism 5/8/2011 9:09:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@...> wrote:

>

> Source, please?

>

> ernie kurtz

>



It appears in Volume 18 of the Collected Works, Miscellaneous Writings, page

272. Another remark, apparently about the same patient, appears on page 242.



You, by the way, were the cause of that passage coming to light. It went viral

after I put it in an addendum to my Stellar Fire article, and here is how it

came to my attention.



I had emailed a Jungian practitioner in the Philadelphia area to ask him if he

had any idea who the mysterious Fred W. in "Not God" might be. He didn't know,

but after checking out the article, he emailed back to ask why I had not

considered the best primary source of all, Jung's own statements about the

situation.



An original mention of Rowland Hazard by Jung, prior to the Bill Wilson letter?

That would have been the holy grail I was seeking. My correspondent pointed me

to the right volume, and of course, it turned out that Jung did not identify the

patient closely enough that we can be sure he meant Rowland. In addition, it is

unlikely that Rowland actually toured with the Oxford Group in Europe, although

he certainly did in North America. He planned to go on an Oxford Group trip to

Europe, which was to include Zurich as well as other cities, but apparently

changed his mind at the last moment. My sources for this are the Alexander Smith

papers in Princeton and notes in the back of Sam Shoemaker's appointment book,

Billy Graham library, Wheaton IL.



I assume that Fred W. had also read those passages about the alcoholic and the

Oxford Group, as he was aware of something written or said by Jung which

indicated that Rowland had returned to drinking after his Oxford Group

involvement. I heard Fred say so on the tape of your interview with him, now at

the Brown library. So my correspondent was probably not the only one to think

that those passages referred to Rowland Hazard.


0 -1 0 0
7367 greer21770
Carl Jung and Dr. Silkworth Carl Jung and Dr. Silkworth 5/8/2011 7:47:00 PM


How much did Dr. Silkworth know of Carl Jung's work before he began treating

Bill Wilson? Silkworth's "psychic change" sounds very much like the ideas shown

on P27:4 in the Big Book and attributed to Dr. Jung.



Did Jung publish his concept of "vital spiritual experiences" before 1934?


0 -1 0 0
7368 David Jones
Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism 5/10/2011 4:18:00 PM


The Symbolic Life, by Prof. C. G. Jung



You can search and read the majority of the book at the following link. The book

was published in 1977 and contains a collection of Jung's writings. The Symbolic

Life was published in 1935 and was delivered as a lecture on 5th April 1939,

information taken from the myLOC Library of Congress websire.



See second link.



Hope this helps!!!



http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ndI9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=symbolic+\

life&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false




http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/redbook/redbookandbeyond/ExhibitObjects/SymbolicLif\

e.aspx






Regards

David



____________________________________________



http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ndI9AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=symbolic+\

life&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false




The Symbolic Life: Miscellaneous Writings, by Carl Gustav Jung



Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1977 - Psychology - 904 pages



Originally planned as a brief final volume in the Collected Works, The Symbolic

Life has become the most ample volume in the edition, and one of unusual

interest. It contains some 160 items spamming sixty years; they include

forewords, replies to questionnaires, encyclopedia articles, occasional

addresses, and letters on technical subjects. Collection of this material relied

on three chief circumstances. After Jung returned from active medical practice,

he gave more of his time to writing, and some sixty papers as well as books were

written after 1950. Second, recent research has brought to light a number of

reviews, reports and articles from the early years of Jung's career. Finally,

Jung's files yielded several finished or virtually finished papers that survived

in manuscript.Volume 18 includes three longer works: 'The Tavistock Lectures'

(1936); 'Symbols and the Interpretation of Dreams' (1961); and 'The Symbolic

Life', the transcript of a seminar given in London in 1939.



- - - -



http://myloc.gov/Exhibitions/redbook/redbookandbeyond/ExhibitObjects/SymbolicLif\

e.aspx




The Symbolic Life, by Prof. C. G. Jung



In 1937, the Guild of Pastoral Psychology was established in London to encourage

the study of psychology among clergy and other spiritual leaders, with

particular reference to Jung's work. In 1939, its patron, Jung, delivered this

lecture, in which he stated that "Only the symbolic life can express the needs

of the soul." The guilds website explains the cover logo: The chalice symbolises

the great womb of life. The opposites meet in all their variety and fecundity

and are contained until they transform. It is the female and maternal giving

birth to life. The snake is that symbol of regeneration because it casts away

its old skin, burnt in the fiery tension between opposites, and a new form

emerges.



C. G. Jung. The Symbolic Life: A Seminar Talk Given on 5th April, 1939,

transcript from shorthand notes of Derek Kitchin. London: Guild of Pastoral

Psychology, 1954. Rare Book and Special Collections Division, Library of

Congress. Courtesy of the Guild of Pastoral Psychology (023.00.00)


0 -1 0 0
7369 John Theede
Re: Jung''s attitude toward religion: Carl Jung, The Red Book Jung''s attitude toward religion: Carl Jung, The Red Book 5/10/2011 1:13:00 AM


While Jung's opinions on organized religion as a cure for alcoholism may be in

doubt, his view on the need for a spiritual path for recovery is certainly not.

His book: "Modern Man in Search of a Soul" (not published until 1955) clearly

reveals his belief that psychology and religion are not exclusive from each

other and may be very related.



His recently published journal, The Red Book, indicates that this was an

interest of his from very early on. It details his own personal "confrontation

with the unconscious", written during a period from 1913 to 1930, describes his

descent into his unconscious and eventual understanding of the totality of his

entire being and his "soul."



This was while he was seeing patients in an active practice, begun just after

his famous "break" with Freud in 1913. He broke with Freud over his insistence

that man was only driven by his repressed desires and emotions.



Jung believed that in addition to the "personal unconscious" of Freud, there was

a "collective unconscious" that all mankind shared, where archetypes resided and

which have historically been represented by mythology and religion. He saw

religion as a gateway to this other world of unconscious spirituality? ...

search for a soul?



Jung was a complex, brilliant man, but he also understood the simplicity and

power of a spiritual solution.



John T., San Francisco



______________________________________________



CARL JUNG, THE RED BOOK



check out publisher's website:

http://www.philemonfoundation.org/



https://www.philemonfoundation.org/support/bookstore/



The Red Book

By C. G. Jung



When Carl Jung embarked on an extended self-exploration he called his

“confrontation with the unconscious,” the heart of it was The Red Book, a large,

illuminated volume he created between 1914 and 1930. Here he developed his

principle theories—of the archetypes, the collective unconscious, and the

process of individuation—that transformed psychotherapy from a practice

concerned with treatment of the sick into a means for higher development of the

personality.



While Jung considered The Red Book to be his most important work, only a handful

of people have ever seen it. Now, in a complete facsimile and translation, it is

available to scholars and the general public. It is an astonishing example of

calligraphy and art on a par with The Book of Kells and the illuminated

manuscripts of William Blake. This publication of The Red Book is a watershed

that will cast new light on the making of modern psychology.

212 color illustrations.

______________________________________________



From The Washington Post's Book World/washingtonpost.com



Reviewed by by Michael Dirda



Starting in 1912, Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961), a specialist in the treatment of

schizophrenia, began to experience strange dreams and frightening visions. Once

when returning home on a train, the 38-year-old Swiss psychologist hallucinated

that everywhere he looked he could see nothing but "rivers of blood." In one

enigmatic dream a bird-girl hauntingly announced, "Only in the first hour of the

night can I become human, while the male dove is busy with the twelve dead"; in

another he encountered a wise old man, with wings, holding four keys. After a

while, Jung began to carry on conversations with the winged "Philemon" during

his daytime walks.



Was he going mad? After World War I broke out in 1914, Jung decided with relief

that his disturbed imagination had actually been sensing the coming conflict. He

also concluded that he had entered what we would now call a midlife crisis, a

period in which he was being compelled to reexamine his life and explore his

deepest self. To do this, he recorded some of his dreams and visions in what

were later called his "Black Books" (which have been available for some while).



But he also began a remarkable visionary text, illustrated with his own bizarre

paintings: "The Red Book" or "Liber Novus." This he composed during a state of

"active imagination" -- that is, of reverie or waking dream. As he said, he

wanted to see what would happen when he "switched off consciousness."



To the modern reader, the result recalls an allegorical-mythological amalgam of

Nietzsche's "Also Sprach Zarathustra," Blake's illuminated poems, Renaissance

Neoplatonic dialogue, Eastern scripture, Dante's "Inferno," Yeats's "A Vision"

and even the biblical book of Revelation.



Jung's pictures sometimes resemble simplified versions of Georgia O'Keeffe's

flower paintings and sometimes the symbol-laden images in treatises about

alchemy (a subject that Jung was soon to study intently). Throughout, one finds

illuminated capitals, interlaced roundels that call to mind stained-glass

windows, stars, half moons, swords, crosses, dying animals. Jung also drew

circular patterns that he later recognized as versions of the mystical shape

called the mandala.



"The Red Book" was never published during the psychologist's lifetime, though a

few friends and disciples were allowed to examine it. Apparently Jung felt it

was not only too personal and quirky for publication, but also that he had

already mined the text for the insights set forth in his later writings.



As editor Sonu Shamdasani stresses, "The overall theme of the book is how Jung

regains his soul and overcomes the contemporary malaise of spiritual alienation.

This is ultimately achieved through enabling the rebirth of a new image of God

in his soul and developing a new worldview in the form of a psychological and

theological cosmogony."



After Jung's death, "The Red Book," was safely locked away in a bank deposit

box. But, as happens, Jung's heirs and disciples have now decided to bring out

this facsimile edition (with English translation), as well as mount an

exhibition about "The Red Book" at the Rubin Museum of Art in New York (through

January).



The resulting volume is certainly one of the most distinctive gift books of the

upcoming holiday season. With a rich crimson dust jacket, thick cream-colored

paper and calligraphied pages, this huge tome is the size of a lectern Bible and

looks like the kind of spell book a wizard might consult.



During the initial period covered by "The Red Book" -- mainly 1913 through the

1920s -- Jung broke permanently with the founder of psychoanalysis, Sigmund

Freud, and resigned from his teaching position at the University of Zurich. When

Jung emerged from this period of crisis, he brought with him the first inklings

of his most important contributions to psychology -- positing the existence of a

collective unconscious common to all human beings.



This primordial ocean within us affects our lives through various universal

"archetypes" -- forces or situations that represent our inmost needs bookworld@washpost.com


0 -1 0 0
7370 Michael Gwirtz
Re: Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism Jung''s attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism 5/9/2011 11:42:00 AM


No no no

From what source

Not who was the source





Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Sent from my iPhone



________________________________________



On May 8, 2011, at 12:22 PM, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@umich.edu> wrote:



> Source, please?

>

> ernie kurtz

>

> - - - -

>

> On Apr 30, 2011, at 5:12 PM, AAHistoryLovers.member wrote:

>

> > This is a very important cautionary note for AA historians who wish to

portray Carl Jung, in his younger years, as an eager proponent of religious

cures as the best and necessary way to treat alcoholism.

> >

> > Carl Jung's earliest attitude toward religious cures of alcoholism seems to

include an acknowledgment that such cures do occur on occasion, but his way of

speaking about them is nevertheless not very complementary.

> >

> > Jung expressed this ambivalence toward the Group in a talk about the

> > relationship of religion to mental health around 1941. "A hysterical

alcoholic was cured by this Group movement, and they used him as a sort of model

and sent him all round Europe, where he confessed so nicely and said that he had

done wrong and how he had got cured through the Group movement. And when he had

repeated his story twenty, or it may have been fifty, times, he got sick of it

and took to drink again. The spiritual sensation had simply faded away. Now what

are they going to do with him? They say, now he is pathological, he must go to a

doctor. See, in the first stage he has been cured by Jesus, in the second by a

doctor! I should and did refuse such a case. I sent the man back to these people

and said, 'If you believe that Jesus has cured this man, he will do it a second

time. And if he can't do it, you don't suppose that I can do it better than

Jesus?' But that is just exactly what they do expect; when a man is

pathological, Jesus won't help him but the d octor will."[71]

>

>

>


0 -1 0 0
7371 Bruce C.
Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? 5/9/2011 7:47:00 AM


The paper cover of the book "Pass It On" states the following:



"Here is Bill W., the man everybody knew and nobody knew .... Bill's character

was complex and contradictory. Although we always tried to place him on a

pedestal, he strove for genuine humility, declining honors and stressing the

spiritual value of anonymity. The co-founder of A.A., he was never a member of

A.A., because we never allowed him to be."



The question: Why does the book jacket say that Bill W. "was never a member of

A.A."? What is the source for this statement?



Bruce Cleaver


0 -1 0 0
7372 joe
Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany 5/9/2011 9:16:00 PM


Dolores,



You may be referring to the Hughes Act signed into law in 1970 by President

Nixon. The book the original moderator of the AAHistoryLovers wrote, "With a Lot

of Help From Our Friends" details the process and some of its implications.*



However, I do not believe AA as an autonomous entity needed a law to officially

bring AA onto any military installation. In fact, I have evidence of AA groups

on bases throughout the world before then and many of them are well documented

in AA Grapevine digital archives in Germany, Guam, Korea, as well as MacDill

AFB, Florida where AA was brought by an Army Air Corps Sergeant.



Additionally Sgt Bill S. who wrote "On the Military Firing Line in the

alcoholism treatment Program" attended and helped start AA meetings on bases

well before the Hughes Act.**



It is my experience that AA meetings are held on bases when the relationship

with the Chaplain Corps and others on base allow adequate meeting space to be

rented or available and when access to the base by sufficient alcoholics support

keeping the meeting open. It has never in my years of experience been related to

legislation. The Hughes Act did open doors to alcoholism treatment opportunities

and several high level military personnel sober at the time were instrumental in

testifying and supporting the law, which essentially funded and recognized

federally alcoholism and support for its treatment. At least that is my

perspective of this part of our history. Others here may certainly know more

about this fascinating topic.

_________________________________________

*Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism

(2003) -- http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

For more on Nancy's life (1929-2005) see http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html

_________________________________________

**A second edition is currently in press and should appear shortly:

William E. Swegan, The Psychology of Alcoholism

Copyright © 2011 by Mary Elizabeth Swegan and Glenn F. Chesnut.

Originally published © 2003 as

On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program

by Sgt. Bill S. with Glenn F. Chesnut.

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html

http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html



=========================================

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores" <dolli@...> wrote:

>

> Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought

AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany?

>

> Dolores

>


0 -1 0 0
7373 joe
Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany 5/13/2011 10:58:00 PM


One specific piece of evidence that AA met on military bases in Germany

pre-Hughes Act was published in Grapvine February 1961.



R.S. wrote a letter published in the section called PO Box 1980



"Going a long way to say hello

OUR group is situated on an RCAF base in the beautiful Black Forest area of

Germany and only a stone's throw across the Rhine river from France. It seems to

me that this is the place that all active alcoholics dream of.

You are no doubt aware that AA groups over here are rather scarce. The group

nearest to us is at the American Army Post some 40 miles from here and the next

one about 40 miles past this. Even though the distances between groups are

considerable throughout Germany, we still get around. Some of us drove to

another group the other evening just to say hello and covered more than 100

miles.

R. S.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores" <dolli@...> wrote:

>

> Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought

AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany?

>

> Dolores

>


0 -1 0 0
7374 Kimball ROWE
Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany 5/11/2011 9:22:00 AM


Hi Dolores, Kim here (formerly of Zweibrucken)



Checkout "The Comprehensive Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment

and Rehabilitation Act of 1970." It was also known as the Hughes Act, promoted

by Senator Harold E. Hughes and Marty Mann (Women Suffer Too). I don't recall

"Social Actions" or "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" existing until the

early 70s. I do recall that it was common for "Social Actions" and military

"Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" to invite AA on base for meetings.





From: Dolores

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 2:56 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec.

in Germany





Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which brought AA

officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany?



Dolores















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
7375 Bill Lash
Challenging the Second A in A.A. Challenging the Second A in A.A. 5/10/2011 7:52:00 AM


Challenging the Second ‘A’ in A.A.



In modern recovery, anonymity is viewed as harking to a time when alcoholism was

seen as a disgrace.



By DAVID COLMAN

The New York Times, May 6, 2011



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08anon.html?_r=4&pagewanted=1&sq=anony\

mous&st=cse&scp=6




I’m David Colman, and I’m an alcoholic.



In the 15 years since I quit drinking, I’ve neither spoken nor written those

words, and now, in doing so, I have more or less violated the

first-name-only tenet of Alcoholics Anonymous, the grass-roots organization

whose meetings have helped me (and millions of others) quit drinking. As

A.A.’s 11th Tradition states, “We need always maintain personal anonymity at

the level of press, radio and films.”



Of course, in the meetings I’ve attended over the years, anonymity has

always been a kind of collective fiction. Before and after sessions, I find

myself talking to people I know from work: greeting an artist I’ve

interviewed or a fashion designer I want to; hashing over logistics with a

P.R. guy or a magazine editor. At one of these, a big Sunday meeting in

Greenwich Village, I’ve been surprised to see well-known actors and authors

up on the dais to share their stories — often, I’ve noticed, when they have

something to promote, as if it’s just another a stop on the press tour.

Frequently, I find friends introducing me to others in the group by my full

name, “You know David Colman, don’t you?”



More and more, anonymity is seeming like an anachronistic vestige of the

Great Depression, when A.A. got its start and when alcoholism was seen as

not just a weakness but a disgrace.



Over the past few years, so many memoirs about recovery have been released

that they constitute a genre unto itself. (Kick Lit?) Moreover, many of them

share a format that comes from A.A. itself: most 12-step meetings revolve

loosely around what is called a “qualification” — an informal monologue by

one member about his or her battle with the bottle. The last few years have

brought us fleshed-out qualifications by Augusten Burroughs (“Dry”), Mary

Karr (“Lit”), Nikki Sixx (“The Heroin Diaries”), Eric Clapton (“Clapton: The

Autobiography”), Nic Sheff (“Tweak”) and James Frey (“A Million Little

Pieces,” fabricated, in part, though it was), as well as hundreds of other

blurry, cautionary tales of debauchery and redemption. Somewhere, their

patron saint — Augustine of Hippo, whose “Confessions” inaugurated the

sinner-cum-saint format in A.D. 398 — is smiling. With precious few

exceptions, like Thomas De Quincey’s “Confessions of an English Opium-Eater”

in 1822 and Lillian Roth’s “I’ll Cry Tomorrow” in 1954, the form barely

existed 20 years ago.



People seeking help from any number of addictions can find public role

models — the quitterati, if you will — like Eminem (the album “Recovery”),

Pink (the song “Sober”), and Russell Brand, in the remake of “Arthur” (if

they were among the few moviegoers who actually saw it), which seemed in

many ways to echo the now-abandoned life he wrote about in “My Booky Wook: A

Memoir of Sex, Drugs and Stand-Up.”



“I think it’s extremely healthy that anonymity is fading,” said Clancy

Martin, a professor of philosophy at the University of Missouri at Kansas

City. Mr. Martin broke his anonymity in a 9,000-word essay he wrote in the

January issue of Harper’s Magazine detailing his experience getting sober in

A.A. and his frustrations with the resistance he met in meetings when trying

to talk openly about the psychiatric medications that he, like many

recovering addicts, took.



But not everyone is happy about this turn toward openness, chief among them

A.A. itself, which last year issued an expanded statement on anonymity that

has been read at some meetings, adding language about the importance of

discretion on social networking Web sites, hoping to ward off breaches both

purposeful and accidental.



Some people have posted pictures taken at A.A. meetings on their Facebook

pages, said a spokeswoman for A.A. who asked not to be identified. In some

cases, they may have involuntarily outed other attendees. “We don’t have the

wherewithal to deal with the complaints,” she added. “It’s literally in the

thousands now.”



IN the world of recovery — encompassing the greater community of recovering

addicts, which overlaps mightily but not officially with A.A. and its

alphabet soup of sister groups — anonymity is a concept that, even if it

doesn’t feel bit old-fashioned, can be self-defeating.



“Having to deny your own participation in a program that is helping your

life doesn’t make sense to me,” said Maer Roshan, the editor of The Fix, a

new, hip-feeling Web magazine aimed at the recovery world. “You could be

focusing light on something that will make it better and more honest and

more helpful.”



The idea for The Fix — a mixture of serious journalism, reviews of rehab

programs and irreverent features (like one about the “most irritating”

12-step slogans) — came to Mr. Roshan about 18 months ago, when he was

living in Los Angeles and out of rehab for alcohol and drug use. Newly

exposed to the realm of recovery, Mr. Roshan was struck by how little solid

and comprehensive information there was about it.



“There are hundreds of books and millions of Web articles, but it’s hard to

discern what’s real and what’s agenda,” he said. “It’s so weird. With Yelp,

you can find out everything about the pizza place on the corner, but there’s

no good, unfiltered, reported information on most rehabs — and this is

something you could be spending $100,000 on.”



Having started an early mainstream-style gay and lesbian magazine in the

early 1990s — the short-lived QW — Mr. Roshan was also struck by the

similarities between the two worlds, particularly when it came to the issue

of anonymity.



“The recovery world is now where the gay world was then,” he said. “Back

then, there was a still a stigma to saying you were gay. There was a

community, but it was mired in self-doubt and self-hatred, and it’s changed

considerably. Not just gay people, but the perception of gay people has

changed. There’s a lot of secretiveness and shame in the recovery world,

too, but that’s changing.”



“There’s not a day that goes by that some major figure doesn’t announce

himself as a substance abuser. There’s a community of people who don’t see

it as shameful. These are people that have learned from challenges who have

a hunger for life and money to spend, and who want to make up for lost

time.”



But even for people who want to be more open, the exact line of where

anonymity begins and ends is not clear-cut. Many people assume that to

identify themselves as “sober” or “in recovery” qualifies as a breach. In

fact, only identifying yourself as a member of A.A. or other specific

12-step groups does.



The topic of clarifying these boundaries was brought up yet again at A.A.’s

annual General Service Conference, which took place in New York City last

week, with debate focused on how the organization’s “Understanding

Anonymity” pamphlet could be best worded to guide those who want to follow

the letter or spirit of the principle.



This delicate question was the subject of an essay by Susan Cheever in The

Fix, titled “Is It Time to Take the Anonymous Out of A.A.?” Given that she

has written books about both her alcoholism and that of her father, the

writer John Cheever, as well as one on the history of A.A., it’s not hard to

guess whether she is an A.A. member. But in her essay, she vented her

frustrations with trying to observe the practice of anonymity while trying

to speak frankly about addiction.



“We are in the midst of a public health crisis when it comes to

understanding and treating addiction,” Ms. Cheever wrote. “A.A.’s principle

of anonymity may only be contributing to general confusion and prejudice.”



Her message wasn’t exactly greeted with open arms, inciting a flood of

largely critical comments from the site’s readers. (One of the tamer ones:

“Without ANONYMITY, A.A. will not continue to exist and help millions of

alcoholics and addicts all over the world!”)



Still, others have embraced the path of full disclosure and been rewarded.

Since becoming sober in 2006, Patrick J. Kennedy, the former Rhode Island

congressman and a son of the late Edward M. Kennedy, has acknowledged that

he attends A.A. meetings while also actively campaigning for legislation to

make addiction be held to the same standard of insurance coverage as other

mental health issues. (The Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act,

included as a rider on the Troubled Asset Relief Program, was signed into

law in October 2008.)



“The personal identification that Jim and I brought to this issue as

recovering alcoholics gave us a place from which to speak about this,” Mr.

Kennedy said, referring to former Representative Jim Ramstad, Republican of

Minnesota, his co-sponsor of the bill (and for a time, his sponsor in A.A.).

“Stigma here is our biggest barrier, and knowledge and understanding are the

antidote to stigma.”



Molly Jong-Fast, 32, a New York novelist who became sober in A.A. 12 years

ago, agrees. “It’s seems crazy that we can’t just be out with it, in this

day and age,” Ms. Jong-Fast said. “I don’t want to have to hide my sobriety;

it’s the best thing about me.”



Some are trying to find a middle ground between secrecy and full disclosure.

Faces and Voices of Recovery, a group based in Washington, has recruited

people to speak publicly about being sober while nominally retaining their

anonymity, a process they call “recovery messaging.” Their goal is to stress

the positive aspects of sobriety and counter negative public perceptions of

recovered addicts and alcoholics.



“I remember growing up, if you saw someone on TV who was in recovery, you

couldn’t see their face or their voice was disembodied,” said Pat Taylor,

the group’s executive director. “But there’s nothing that prohibits people

from talking about recovery as long as they don’t mention their actual

support group. And the other thing is that there are so many ways that

people are getting into recovery and sustaining it. It’s not just one path.”



In the professional recovery world, where one might expect to find a

consensus, the debate can be the fiercest of all.



Some believe that more people in recovery should go public. “I violate my

anonymity daily,” said Rick Ohrstrom, the chairman of C4 Recovery Solutions,

a consultancy firm. “I am 25 years in recovery, and have been out there

fighting for the rights of people in recovery, and I’m sick and tired of

people in A.A. meetings not lifting a finger to do anything about it. They

hide behind anonymity — if you don’t tell anyone else that recovery works,

that’s what you’re doing. That’s not how A.A. got to be where it was.”



Others insist on the importance of privacy. “Our effectiveness to reach the

still-suffering alcoholic is better protected by anonymity, even today, than

not having anonymity at the public level,” said Dr. Andrea Barthwell, the

chief executive of Two Dreams Outer Banks, a rehab center in Corolla, N.C.

“It’s possible that anonymity would be lifted sometime in the future, but

there’s no one that’s made that compelling argument yet — and it can’t be

done from outside the fellowship.”



But even some who have faithfully observed the practice, myself included,

have a suspicion that, if staying anonymous is not an outdated (and

sometimes absurd) technicality, it is at least a choice that everyone should

have.



“I am increasingly uncomfortable with this level of dishonesty,” Ms. Cheever

said in a telephone interview last month. “This dancing around and hedging,

figuring out ways of saying it that aren’t really saying it, so that people

in recovery know what I am talking about — all the code words. I am sure

this is not what Bill intended."



Having written a biography of Bill — that is, Bill Wilson, one of the

founders of A.A. — Ms. Cheever is in a position to say what the idea of

anonymity was intended to do as few are. First and foremost, anonymity was

meant to shield those struggling to become sober from the stigma of being an

alcoholic, a stigma far more marked 75 years ago when there was little

research on alcoholism as a medical condition over which its sufferers had

little control.



These are the most common considerations when weighing the reasons for

anonymity. But the second part of the ideal, spelled out in A.A.’s 12th

Tradition, makes the case for observing anonymity within A.A. itself — and

it’s worth noting that there’s little, if any, dissension on this subject.



Unlike the more practical 11th Tradition, aimed at the outer world, the 12th

Tradition takes a crack at our far more problematic inner world. Stating

(somewhat obliquely) that “anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our

traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities,” it’

s about cultivating the often overlooked idea of humility, an excellent

means for quieting the now-me-more urges that bedevil addictive people more

than their peers.



In this light, anonymity is a token, a symbolic gesture, but we are symbolic

people. Even shedding your last name can go a surprisingly long way toward

shedding the weight of being yourself.


0 -1 0 0
7376 Charles Knapp
Re: AA brought to U.S. military bases AA brought to U.S. military bases 5/17/2011 3:25:00 AM


For what it is worth, there was an AA meeting on March Air Force Base in

Riverside, California from 1945 until the mid 1960's. The location of the

meeting on the base changed from the cafeteria to the Chapel several times,

which leads us to believe the meeting was growing and shrinking like most

meetings over those years. The Area 9 Archives could never determine who was

responsible for starting that meeting, but it was believed the base Chaplain had

something to do with it. It was said the Chaplain attended the meetings and

observed from a distance but never really participated.



Also from what I was told, it was hard for anyone to get on to March Air Force

Base because the time period was at the end of WW II.. In 1945 this base would

have been in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by acres and acres of orange

groves, desert, and mountains. But AA members not in the Air Force, and who made

the drive, were allowed to attend the meeting. Members parked their cars at the

front gate and someone would drive to the gate pick you up and return you to the

gate after the meeting.



The base closed in 1993, and by the late 1990's while serving as the Area 9

archivist I went on base to take photos of the buildings that the meetings were

held, but they had been torn down.



Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
7377 bsdds@comcast.net>
Passing of Dr. Bill D. of the International Doctors in AA Passing of Dr. Bill D. of the International Doctors in AA 5/17/2011 4:11:00 PM


I regret to announce the passing of Bill Daniel(s) M.D. (I never really knew

whether his last name had an s on the end). Bill D was a physician who had

great impact on the development of IDAA or International Doctors in Alcoholics

Anonymous.



My sponsor, George T., was the dean of a medical school in the American

Southwest in the 80's. He took me to my first IDAA meeting circa 1978 where I

met Bill D. (not to be confused with the Bill D of the Big Book). Bill was a

gruff old coot who put on the IDAA meeting in Morristown New Jersey every year.

He and George, my sponsor, came up with the idea to put the IDAA shindig on in

conjunction with CME for docs. Not only would the AA meetings have the twelve

steps and traditions, but with participating speakers of different disciplines;

and Dr's would get needed CME, not to mention the visualization of others in the

health professions. They brought in so many great folks from within the program

of AA but also top dog educators who spoke of the implications and complications

of alcoholism on the body.



I am sure Ernie Kurtz knew him since I recall Ernie participated in one or more

of those IDAA meetings.



Due to Bill's health, the IDAA meetings were moved to Texas. A couple of them

were in San Antonio at the older Riverwalk Marriott, and then in El Paso where

Tech had a campus. Bill let go of his leadership of IDAA, and the annual

meetings took on different directions ending up in various annual destinations.

Both Bill and my sponsor, George T., emphasized that IDAA was not really an AA

meeting. "Regular" AA had no substitute and IDAA was just a little "gravy."



When I moved to Charlottesville, I had occasion to speak with a fellow at a

meeting who asked if I knew who Bill Daniel(s) was. He said he had built a

house for him and Stella in Free Union, Virginia (this was Stella his wife, who

Bill gave credit for saving his life). I tried to get in touch with him a few

years ago more than once. I was told he was not in good health and Stella was

like a mother bear and her cubs with him. I wrote him a letter telling him how

much I appreciated all he did for me and my family but never knew if he got it.



I was told he passed away a few months ago at the age of 94.



To me, this guy was a giant in coordinating and bringing acceptability within

the medical community regarding the recognition and treatment of alcoholism and

addiction in the 1960's, 70's and 80's. I am saddened by his passing but in awe

of his work.



Bob Schultz

Charlottesville, Virginia

<bsdds@comcast.net> (bsdds at comcast.net)


0 -1 0 0
7378 Dolores
Re: AA brought to Germany: Zweibruecken AA brought to Germany: Zweibruecken 5/17/2011 4:34:00 PM


Kim, thanks for your information. I have the history of AA in Zweibruecken.



Dolores



- - - -



THE HUGHES ACT -- 1970



From the Bishop of Books

FIFTY BOOKS TRACING AA'S HISTORY

http://hindsfoot.org/fiftybk.html



*Nancy Olson, "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism"

(2003)

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html



**Sally Brown and David R. Brown, "Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics

Anonymous" (2001)

http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com/

http://www.sallyanddavidbrown.com/bios.htm



____________________________________________



Original message #7374 from Kimball ROWE <roweke@msn.com>



Hi Dolores, Kim here (formerly of Zweibrucken)



Checkout "The Comprehensive Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism Prevention, Treatment

and Rehabilitation Act of 1970." It was also known as the Hughes Act, promoted

by Senator Harold E. Hughes* and Marty Mann** (Women Suffer Too).



I don't recall "Social Actions" or "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)"

existing until the early 70s. I do recall that it was common for "Social

Actions" and military "Alcohol Rehabilitation Centers (ARC)" to invite AA on

base for meetings.


0 -1 0 0
7379 Dolores
Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany AA officially brought to U.S. military bases, epec. in Germany 5/17/2011 4:31:00 PM


Joe,



There have been AA meetings in Germany since 1948. I used the word "officially"

because after the Hughes act was signed, treatment centers were set up for the

US servicemen on the military bases, the best known being that of Bad Cannstatt

near Stuttgart. Four such treatment centers were set up in Germany.



The Chaplains and the MDs supported the alcoholics before this Act of Congress.

The meetings were listed at GSO New York as Loner meetings. You could almost say

AA was an open secret Fellowship before 1970.



As you wrote it is a fascinating topic. Thanks for your information.



Dolores





----- Original Message -----

From: joe

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:16 AM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA officially brought to U.S. military bases,

epec. in Germany



Dolores,



You may be referring to the Hughes Act signed into law in 1970 by President

Nixon. The book the original moderator of the AAHistoryLovers wrote, "With a Lot

of Help From Our Friends" details the process and some of its implications.*



However, I do not believe AA as an autonomous entity needed a law to

officially bring AA onto any military installation. In fact, I have evidence of

AA groups on bases throughout the world before then and many of them are well

documented in AA Grapevine digital archives in Germany, Guam, Korea, as well as

MacDill AFB, Florida where AA was brought by an Army Air Corps Sergeant.



Additionally Sgt Bill S. who wrote "On the Military Firing Line in the

alcoholism treatment Program" attended and helped start AA meetings on bases

well before the Hughes Act.**



It is my experience that AA meetings are held on bases when the relationship

with the Chaplain Corps and others on base allow adequate meeting space to be

rented or available and when access to the base by sufficient alcoholics support

keeping the meeting open. It has never in my years of experience been related to

legislation. The Hughes Act did open doors to alcoholism treatment opportunities

and several high level military personnel sober at the time were instrumental in

testifying and supporting the law, which essentially funded and recognized

federally alcoholism and support for its treatment. At least that is my

perspective of this part of our history. Others here may certainly know more

about this fascinating topic.

_________________________________________

*Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of Alcoholism

(2003) -- http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

For more on Nancy's life (1929-2005) see http://hindsfoot.org/nomem1.html

_________________________________________

**A second edition is currently in press and should appear shortly:

William E. Swegan, The Psychology of Alcoholism

Copyright © 2011 by Mary Elizabeth Swegan and Glenn F. Chesnut.

Originally published © 2003 as

On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program

by Sgt. Bill S. with Glenn F. Chesnut.

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS4.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kBS5.html

http://hindsfoot.org/BSV02Psy.html



=========================================

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores" <dolli@...> wrote:

>

> Does anyone have any more information about the Act of Congress which

brought AA officially onto the U.S. military bases, especially in Germany?

>

> Dolores

>


0 -1 0 0
7380 jaxena77
Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? 5/17/2011 1:45:00 AM


Bill wrote a Grapevine article called "Why Can't We Join A.A., Too?" in the

October 1947 Grapevine. I think it explains what the author of Pass It On meant,

and I think it is a poignant and true statement. Full text below, copied from

Grapevine digital archives.



Jackie B



***



Why Can't We Join A.A., Too?



Dear A.A.s:



Dr. Bob and I have a problem. We'd like to share it frankly with you.



In actuality, A.A. has a score of "founders," men and women without whose

special contributions A.A. might never have been. But somehow the title,

"founder," seems to have attached itself almost solely to Dr. Bob and me--a

phenomenon due perhaps to the general lack of information about our early days.

This sentiment, though it prompts A.A.s to set us somewhat apart from the whole,

is deeply touching to us both. We surely have more reasons for gratitude than

anyone in the world. But we are beginning to ask ourselves if this over-emphasis

will be good for A.A. in the long run. Is so much sentiment for "the founders"

entirely wise?



Perhaps we A.A.s can become a new kind of human society. To a degree hitherto

unknown, A.A. may be able to function upon the power of its own fundamental

principles rather than upon the prestige or inspiration of a highly personalized

leadership. Thus the whole can become of transcending importance over any part;

continued unity and success can then mostly depend upon God as we understand him

working vitally in thousands of hearts rather than a few.



Deep down, I think we A.A.s have begun to sense this magnificent possibility.

The widening conviction that active leadership ought to be transitory and

rotating; that each A.A. group with respect to its own affairs needs be

accountable only to its own conscience; that our committees and boards are

really servants, not officials; that we, as a movement, ought to remain poor, so

avoiding the risks of disrupting wealth; that as individual members of A.A. we

should remain anonymous before the general public--these are the signs and

portents of a unique future. Such concepts certainly leave little room for a

prestige-clothed leadership.



"But," some will say, "how shall we make such a vision actually work when most

societies have to rely so greatly on management, money, and heavily-publicized

leadership exercising powerful personal suasion?" Yet incredibly, we are

beginning to see our vision come alive. Even though we persist in looking with

misgiving on any large accumulation of money or personal prestige in the name of

Alcoholics Anonymous, we do continue to grow despite the absence of those

sometimes unstable factors upon which other human endeavors must so often

depend.



Why is this possible? Is it because we are a superior people? Well, hardly! Far

from being better than average, we are surely much more fallible. Strangely

enough, our group strength seems to stem from our individual and ever potential

weakness. We are alcoholics. Even though now recovered, we are never too far

removed from the possibility of fresh personal disaster. Each knows he must

observe a high degree of honesty, humility, and tolerance, or else drink again.

For us of A.A. to drink is to die; to love God and fellow man is to live.



Under such potent conditions the impossible has become possible. When each

A.A.'s life literally depends upon his unselfish service to others, when false

pride, self-pity, or unhealthy self-seeking is almost certain to be unmercifully

chastised by John Barleycorn, he needs but a minimum of man-made rules or

inspired leaders to hold him on the right course. Nor for long is he apt to

continue anything harmful to A.A. unity. He knows so well that we A.A.s shall

have to hang together--or else hang separately! At first living the spiritual

life because he must, he presently lives it because he wants to. Such is the

truly providential circumstance in which we all find ourselves; that is why we

are beginning to see new values in A.A. We perceive in our midst a spiritual

realm which can be little disturbed by the distractions of wealth or

self-serving egocentricity.



Against this background let's have another look at Dr. Bob and me. Seemingly,

the larger A.A. grows, the more our particular part in its creation and

continuance tends to be emphasized. Our status remains exceptional. Nearly all

other early A.A.s have long since slipped over to the "sidelines" where, if they

have retained the confidence of all, they are frequently consulted. By common

consent they have become unofficial coaches, reservoirs of longer experience, to

be sought out in the pinches. Their Alma Mater is now served by new teams. These

too will have their day on the field, then finally retire. This is, we think, as

it ought to be.



Dr. Bob and I feel this sound doctrine should apply to us as well. There seems

no good reason to make an exception of "the founders." The more we early members

continuously occupy the center of the A.A. stage the more we shall set risky

precedents for a highly personalized and permanent leadership. To insure well

A.A.'s future, is this not the very thing we should carefully avoid? Of course,

Dr. Bob and I do not want to ignore any special responsibility remaining still

upon us. Quite the contrary; our principal mission today is probably that of

helping A.A. form a sound tradition. But how, for example, can we advocate the

traditional principle of rotating leadership if we allow the belief to grow that

we ought to be permanent exceptions ourselves? Of course, we cannot.



Take, for instance, my own situation. It is known that my health is recently

improved; that I'm going to a large regional conference. Instantly come warm but

most urgent invitations to speak at gatherings all over North America. Most

A.A.s being good salesmen, the pressure on me is truly enormous.



While it's a wonderful feeling to be so much wanted, these bids do leave me in

the middle of an acute dilemma--a real heart-breaker. How, in fairness, can I

speak at ten anniversary dinners and refuse 90; how can I make special

recordings or telephone talks for all these occasions? Or, again, how can I

respond to all the mail I receive; how can I advise hundreds of individuals and

groups about their special problems? It is a physical impossibility. Even though

I could somehow accomplish all these things, and so remain in the center of A.A.

affairs indefinitely, would that be best for A.A. in the long run? Surely you

will agree it would not.



So the problem of Dr. Bob and me comes down to this: We shall somehow have to

decide just what few things we are still specially fitted to do for A.A. and,

within the limits of our health, set about them.



For my part, I feel I ought to do much more writing: more A.A.Grapevine pieces,

more pamphlets and possibly a new book dealing with the vital matter of A.A.

unity. This material ought to be widely informative of our developing tradition

and of the little understood A.A. General Service Center. Occasionally I would

like to appear at the larger regional gatherings for the purpose of discussing

these matters with as many A.A.s as possible.



Over the next two or three years it will be desirable to broaden the base of our

General Service Center here at New York so that it can include a yearly meeting

of out-of-town A.A.s with the trustees of The Alcoholic Foundation, the A.A.

General Office staff, and The A.A. Grapevine editors, this to be called The

General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous. To help construct such a

conference will be a real task which may eventually require us to visit a number

of our large A.A. centers the country over.



For the good of A.A. as a whole these seem the things most needful to be done.

If these projects are ever to be finished, I'm sure we can do little else. To

succeed we shall need real freedom of decision and few diversions. Hence, we beg

your whole-hearted cooperation.



Though these assignments are still before us, Dr. Bob and I are now going to

confess a deep yearning. As private citizens of A.A., we shall often wish to

come and go among you like other people, without any special attention. And

while we would like always to keep the wonderful satisfaction of having been

among the originators, we hope you will begin to think of us as early A.A.s

only, not as "founders."



So, can't we join A.A., too?



Bill W.







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C." <brucecl2002@...> wrote:

>

> The paper cover of the book "Pass It On" states the following:

>

> "Here is Bill W., the man everybody knew and nobody knew .... Bill's character

was complex and contradictory. Although we always tried to place him on a

pedestal, he strove for genuine humility, declining honors and stressing the

spiritual value of anonymity. The co-founder of A.A., he was never a member of

A.A., because we never allowed him to be."

>

> The question: Why does the book jacket say that Bill W. "was never a member of

A.A."? What is the source for this statement?

>

> Bruce Cleaver

>


0 -1 0 0
7381 Baileygc23@aol.com
Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? 5/17/2011 8:35:00 AM


From Baileygc23, Keith "truthfromgood12," Donald Mansell, "mark_area56"



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



On October 1947, Bill W wrote an article in the AA Grapevine entitled "Why Can't

We Join AA Too?"



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7380



- - - -



From: "truthfromgood12" <kroloson@mindspring.com>

(kroloson at mindspring.com)



Bruce, I believe the writer's intent was to express that because of Bill

Wilson's fame, he could never enjoy the 'luxury' of anonymity, or put another

way, he never benefited from what he and Dr. Bob pioneered for the rest of us.

Additionally there is, to me, an implication that he was never 'one among many',

or a peer among peers, because he was held up as a leader, pioneer and frankly,

most were in awe of him whenever he was encountered, from what I read. You know,

'a legend in our midst' kind of thing.



Lastly it occurs to me that, from what I've read, he didn't like to go to

meetings in the final years because of this celebrity status. Although it was

possible at times for him to attend this meeting or that meeting and go

unrecognized in earlier years, his photographs were so widespread that he

couldn't go to an AA meeting incognito or anonymously! It is a similar problem

for rock stars and actors and politicians, who often attend special meetings set

up to protect them from their own celebrity and allow them to be safe for a

little while.



In His Service,

KEITH



- - - -



From: "mark_area56" <mark@go-concepts.com>

(mark at go-concepts.com)



I just looked at my copy of "Pass it On" and there is one small thing missing in

the statement. The word "member" is italicized, and that made the whole thing

clearer in my mind. We always regarded Bill as the "co-founder" and never just

a "member" - I read that to mean that WE never let Bill be just a member, WE

always treated him as much more than that - our co-founder.



Mel B. is still with us, maybe he can respond.



In service,

Mark



- - - -



From: "donaldl.mansell" <donaldl.mansell@yahoo.com> (donaldl.mansell at

yahoo.com)



Gee, I thought you were a member if you said so. Doesn't matter what others

"allow" us.



___________________________________________



Original message #7371 from "Bruce C."

<brucecl2002@yahoo.com> (brucecl2002 at yahoo.com)



The paper cover of the book "Pass It On" states the following:



"Here is Bill W., the man everybody knew and nobody knew .... Bill's character

was complex and contradictory. Although we always tried to place him on a

pedestal, he strove for genuine humility, declining honors and stressing the

spiritual value of anonymity. The co-founder of A.A., he was never a member of

A.A., because we never allowed him to be."



The question: Why does the book jacket say that Bill W. "was never a member of

A.A."? What is the source for this statement?



Bruce Cleaver


0 -1 0 0
7382 Ann Sjostrom
Re: Challenging the Second A in A.A. Challenging the Second A in A.A. 5/17/2011 4:43:00 AM


From: Ann Sjostrom in Sweden, Tom Hickcox in Baton Rouge, Jim Robbins, George

Cleveland, Jonathan Lanham-Cook, Baileygc



- - - -



From: Ann Sjostrom <ann.two@gmail.com> (ann.two at gmail.com)



Lots of comments on the New York Times web site on this one and many provided an

understanding of anonymity that the article has trouble expressing.



THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE:



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08anon.html?_r=4&pagewanted=1&sq=anony\

mous&st=cse&scp=6




COMMENTS ON IT:



http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/fashion/08anon.\

html




Ann in Sweden



- - - -



From: Tom Hickcox <cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)



From a favorite daily mailing, "When I read the NYTimes story, one of the

thoughts that I had about the writer was, 'and if he ever gets to the sixth and

seventh steps, he might want to look at ______.' (I'm sure each of you can fill

in the blank) 'and it wouldn't be so bad if he read the _and Twelve_ either!"'



Tommy H in Baton Rouge



- - - -



From: "Jim Robbins" <jrobbins1123@yahoo.com> (jrobbins1123 at yahoo.com)



Someone will need to enlighten me here. The only reason I can even remotely

think why anyone would need or want to break their anonymity in AA is ego. AA

works and it works well and has for many years. What possible reason can anyone

think of that would require a change in our traditions? Wanna sell more books?,

Wanna be special and unique? Wanna be politically in tune with the recovery

industry? I'm certain I'm not very well informed on this matter. Help me

understand this issue more clearly.



Page 84 in 12 Steps and 12 Traditions speaks about rationalizing our actions.

The Big Book clearly states that selfishness/self-centeredness is a problem.



And I believe a conference action requires 75% of all registered groups voting

yes to change even a comma or period in Book, Steps or Traditions.



Jim R

PPG Poulsbo, Washington



- - - -



From: George Cleveland <clevelandgeorgem@gmail.com>

(clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com)



I am reminded of the famous instructions on bottles of the iconic Dr. Bronner's

Peppermint Soap: Dilute. Dilute. Dilute.



george cleveland



- - - -



From: Jonathan Lanham-Cook <lanhamcook@gmail.com>

(lanhamcook at gmail.com)



I fear Mr. Colman has possibly missed the point? - Whatever the second 'A' was

in the beginning it evolved into the backbone of the fellowship and without it

we are nothing.



Thank God for Anonymity



Jonathan L-C :-)



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



Many years ago a book was written by a famous actress, Lillian Roth, entitled,

"I'll Cry Tomorrow" (1954). She is supposed to have gone back to drinking. So

all this talk about anonymity breaking being new isn't new.


0 -1 0 0
7383 Chuck Parkhurst
RE: challenging the second A in AA -- this isn''t AA history challenging the second A in AA -- this isn''t AA history 5/17/2011 3:44:00 PM


Members,



The article below was sent to me right after it was published. I do not believe

this is AA history. The article contains inaccuracies, conjecture, name-dropping

and outright incorrect interpretations of AA traditions and principals. I am

troubled anytime someone is quoted as telling me what THEY think "Bill

intended." If our members really want to see a cross section of what AA members

think about this topic, I would suggest their time would be better spent reading

the posted comments (many by anonymous AA members) FOLLOWING this piece of

"journalism."



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst


0 -1 0 0
7384 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? 5/18/2011 4:15:00 PM


Pardon, but I have to toss a memory into this discussion. Bill was of course

deceased before I began my research into AA history in the mid-1970s, but Lois

Wilson was vibrantly alive and we had several interviews at Stepping Stones.

One of quite a few vivid memories: I was questioning Lois about this -- had

Bill ever been able to be a real "member" of AA since he was so generally

recognized as "founder"?



Lois granted that it was difficult, though Bill was pretty much accepted on an

equal basis in the local group there in Bedford. "But, traveling," I pressed:

"or did his earlier travels mean that he was generally recognized everywhere?"

Lois granted that that was pretty much how it was, but I saw that little smile

beginning at the corners of her mouth, a smile that I had learned meant there

was something more here.



So I pressed on: "Well, did Bill ever have the experience of going to a meeting

where nobody recognized him?"



"Yes," Lois allowed. That did happen on rare occasion.



After a pause I pursued, "And how did he react to that?"



"It really pissed him off," the sweet widow replied with an appreciative

chuckle, obviously relishing the recollection.



ernie kurtz


0 -1 0 0
7385 lanhamcook
Groups and contacts where AA archivists can meet Groups and contacts where AA archivists can meet 5/18/2011 4:53:00 PM


Hi - I've recently taken on the role of archivist for Avon North intergroup in

the UK and am kind of flying a little blind as to how best to organise the

existing material.



I'm looking for ways to link up with other archivists for support. What are some

of the groups and websites where I could find other AA archivists to talk with?



Many thanks



Jonathan

<lanhamcook@yahoo.co.uk>

(lanhamcook at yahoo.co.uk)


0 -1 0 0
7386 trysh travis
Ron Roizen: Marty Mann and the disease concept Ron Roizen: Marty Mann and the disease concept 5/20/2011 10:38:00 AM


Ron Roizen has an article out today on *Points: The Blog of the

Alcohol and Drugs History Society,* talking about Marty Mann and the

Disease Concept in early AA History. Available here:

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/cherry-picking-the-history-of-the\

-alcoholism-movement-1/.




Trysh Travis



____________________________________________



"Cherry-Picking the History of the Alcoholism Movement" (1)



Posted on May 20, 2011 by ronroizen9 in

Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society



Sometimes useful pieces of historical evidence may be found lying around in

plain sight. A case in point concerns the relationship between Alcoholics

Anonymous and the disease concept of alcoholism. In 2002, Ernest Kurtz, A.A.'s

distinguished academic historian, published a well-argued article asserting that

the disease concept of alcoholism was not one of A.A.'s core philosophical

commitments (2). Yet -- as Kurtz also noted -- the disease concept has been

part of A.A.'s operational vernacular for a long time.



Sociologist Annette R. Smith http://hindsfoot.org/kas1.html has recently

suggested that the acceptance of the disease concept is a crucial step in a new

A.A. member's conversion to an alcoholic identity (3).



If both Kurtz and Smith are correct -- and I believe they are -- then how did an

idea that is not part of the group's core philosophy nevertheless become a

central element in A.A.'s actual praxis?



Haggard and Jellinek's 1942 Opus (Never to be a Major Motion Picture)



A key part of the answer lies in the promotional campaign of Mrs. Marty Mann.

In 1944, Mann was employed by Howard W. Haggard and E.M. Jellinek at the Yale

Center of Alcohol Studies to promote the disease concept to the American public.

The Yale group's ultimate aim for Mann's campaign was the establishment of a

single-disease advocacy organization for alcoholism treatment and research

enterprises -- an organization not unlike the American Cancer Society or the

American Lung Association. This advocacy group, Yale leadership hoped, would in

due course provide a stream of donations for the support of their own

alcohol-related research. The Yale group's plan for Mann doubtless sprang in

large part from a report prepared by Dwight Anderson for the Research Council on

Problems of Alcohol, later published in a 1942 article titled "Alcohol and

Public Opinion" (4). Anderson argued that the new scientific approach to

alcohol-related problems proffered by the Research Council (and, by extension,

the Yale group) needed a new symbol to differentiate itself unmistakably from

the old vying "dry" and "wet" camps of the previous era. The idea that the

alcoholic was "a sick man," Anderson contended, would perform very nicely as

that new symbol.



Yet Mann's campaign was dogged by a crucial ambiguity. She was widely known

within and without A.A. as a member of that organization; as Michelle McClellan

has recently pointed out here, she was sometimes touted as A.A.'s first woman

member. She was also a popular and beloved figure and speaker within A.A. Not

surprisingly, therefore, it was not always clear to listeners whether her

disease concept advocacy was an element of A.A.'s belief system, or whether she

was speaking entirely on behalf of her National Committee for Education on

Alcoholism (NCEA), or the Yale group. Either way, the disease concept became a

cause célèbre in the late 1940s and over the decade of the 1950s.



But what might have been Mann's view of alcoholism qua disease prior to 1944 and

before she was hired by the Yale group? As it happens, there is a convenient

source that sheds a little light on this question. Journalist Jack Alexander

published a celebrated article on A.A. in the March 1, 1941 issue of The

Saturday Evening Post. More than any other previous event, Alexander's article

put A.A. on the map of U.S. national consciousness. An A.A. General Service

Office newsletter recently noted that following the Post article's publication,

"… A.A. would suddenly triple its membership and be well on the way to

becoming a national institution" (5).



Is That You, Marty Mann?



Mrs. Marty Mann made a cameo appearance in Alexander's famous 1941 article,

under the pseudonym "Sarah Martin." Before I summarize Mann's cameo, however, a

word of caution is in order. Whatever Mann conveyed in Alexander's article was

of course filtered through Alexander's consciousness, his goals for his article,

and his prose preferences. Hence, Mann's remarks and perspective should be

evaluated with a dose of wariness on the reader's part. That said, it is

notable that the word "disease" did not appear in Mann's cameo; nor did she use

the occasion to advance the disease concept of alcoholism. Neither,

incidentally, did the word "disease" appear anywhere in Alexander's 6,500-plus

word article; nor did the words "malady," "illness," or "sickness"(6). I don't

think it's too much of a stretch to believe that the Marty Mann of the post-1944

disease concept campaign -- had she been magically transported back in time to

her 1941 interview with Alexander -- would have enthusiastically hawked the

disease concept to him.



Alexander confined his account of Mann to her drinking history, her futile

efforts to limit her drinking, and her descent into the sequelae of alcohol

excess. His account included mention of Mann's jump or fall from a first floor

window, landing face-first on a Paris sidewalk. This event required "… six

months of bone setting, dental work, and plastic surgery." Alexander's

narrative handling of Mann's story fit into his overall approach to the

Alcoholics Anonymous phenomenon. Alexander stressed the prickliness and

resistance-to-change of alcoholics as personality characteristics, their

emotional immaturity, their escapism through alcohol, and, as well, the

all-important knowingness of other (now recovering) alcoholics in breaking

through the active alcoholic's barriers to recovery. About the commencement of

Mann's alcoholic recovery Alexander wrote only this:



Up to this point she had diagnosed her trouble as a nervous breakdown. Not

until she had committed herself to several sanitariums did she realize, through

reading, that she was an alcoholic.(7) On advice of a staff doctor, she got in

touch with an Alcoholics Anonymous group. Today, she has another good job and

spends many of her nights sitting on hysterical women drinkers to prevent them

from diving out of windows. In her late thirties, Sarah Martin is an

attractively serene woman. The Paris surgeons did handsomely by her.



Kurtz's analysis of the disease concept's relationship to A.A. thought traced

the history of the concept's appearance in authoritative A.A. publications or

pronouncements. Sometimes it was the absence of any mention of the disease

concept that Kurtz noted. He gave particular attention to the writings of Bill

Wilson. Kurtz argued that a careful examination of these sources clearly

evidenced A.A.'s preference for a three-fold vision of alcoholism as a physical,

mental, and spiritual problem -- with an emphasis on A.A.'s preoccupation with

the spiritual dimension.



Mann's cameo in Alexander's famous article did not fit the "sampling frame"

Kurtz employed in gathering data for his analysis -- Alexander's article could

hardly be considered an authoritative A.A. publication. Yet, Alexander's

article and Mann's cameo provide a nice footnote to the case Kurtz made. Mann's

cameo tends to support the view that her vigorous promotion of the disease

concept emerged in 1944 and not directly out of her early A.A. experience (8).

Too bad we don't have more primary material on Mann's views on the disease

concept of alcoholism before 1944. In any case, the fame of Alexander's 1941

article within A.A. circles will, I trust, justify my suggestion that Mann's

cameo was "lying around in plain sight" for use in relation to Kurtz's bold

thesis.



Notes:



(1) I thank Bill White for his insightful comments on a previous draft of this

commentary.



(2) Kurtz, Ernest, "Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism,"

Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly 20 (3&4):5-39, 2002.



(3) Smith, Annette R., The Social World of Alcoholics Anonymous: How it Works

New York, Lincoln, Shanghai: iUniverse, Inc. 2007.



(4) Anderson, Dwight, "Alcohol and Public Opinion," Quarterly Journal of Studies

on Alcohol 3:376-392, 1942.



(5) "Jack Alexander Gave A.A. Its First Big Boost," Box 459[:] News and Notes

from the General Service Office of A.A., 54(1):4-5, (February-March) 2008.



(6) Kurtz (2002), in another connection, made the same point about Alexander's

article.



(7) Incidentally, I have disputed Mann's claims regarding when she first heard

the term or learned about "alcoholism." See: "Where Did Mrs. Marty Mann Learn

Alcoholism Was A Disease and Why Should It Matter?" Ranes Report: Roizen's

Alcohol News & Editorial Service No. 7 [1997].



(8) For more on the relationship between of Anderson's 1942 article and the

development of Mann's campaign, see my "In Search of the Mysterious Mrs. Marty

Mann: An Evolving and (Hopefully) Collaborative Enterprise," n.d., at

http://www.roizen.com/ron/mann.htm


0 -1 0 0
7387 Ron Roizen
Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query 5/25/2011 11:17:00 PM


Hi,



A colleague and I have been having a little debate. I wonder if the list would

care to comment on these two questions:



(1) How much, if at all, did the rise to prominence of the disease concept of

alcoholism in the late 1940s and the decade of the 1950s percolate into the

belief system of A.A. members and their conceptions of alcoholism?



(2) How much, if at all, did confusion surrounding Mrs. Marty Mann's

disease-concept campaign of advocacy in this period spread commitment to the

disease concept in A.A.'s membership? By "confusion" I mean chiefly that A.A.

members may not have been entirely certain whether Mann's pro-disease concept

advocacy was a legitimate part of A.A.'s belief system or whether she was

promoting the concept solely for the purposes of her National Committee for

Education on Alcoholism (later NCA)?



Comments on these questions much appreciated!



Ron Roizen

Wallace, Idaho

<ronroizen@frontier.com>

(ronroizen at frontier.com)


0 -1 0 0
7388 Maria Orozco
The letters cited in the book As Bill Sees It The letters cited in the book As Bill Sees It 5/22/2011 4:22:00 PM


in the book As Bill Sees It, on page 198 at the bottom, it has Letter, 1958.



Can anyone please tell me where can I find out more about this letter? That is,

who wrote it, to whom it was written, and the rest of what was in that letter?



Thanks,

Maria


0 -1 0 0
7389 kodom2545
Connections between Bill W., Lucille Kahn, and Edgar Cayce? Connections between Bill W., Lucille Kahn, and Edgar Cayce? 5/23/2011 4:01:00 PM


I have more questions about Lucille Kahn and Edgar Cayce and their association

with LSD experiments and psychic experiments, together with the possible

connections between Bill Wilson and some of what Kahn and Cayce were involved

in.



In Silkworth.net at http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesd.html there is a

passage on Devoe B. which talks about these people.



I don't quite know what this entry in Silkworth.net means, or who Devoe B. was.

But I am curious as to whether some of the connections here might tell us more

of some possible connection between Bill Wilson and the famous psychic Edgar

Cayce.



The Silkworth.net passage reads as follows:



"Devoe B. - Husband of Anne B.; meditation group met his house Chappaqua; Friday

meeting once help Bill cope isolation A.A.; Bill, Lois, Nell Wing, Devoe B.,

Gerald Heard, Aldous Huxley, Dave D. David & Lucille Kahn, Edgar Cayce attended

(G 75-76)"



____________________________________________



From G.C. the moderator: the reference to G 75-76 at the bottom is presumably a

reference to pages 75-76 of Nell Wing's book, "Grateful to Have Been There," but

apparently to the first (1992) edition, since I cannot find this material on

those pages of my second (1998) edition.



For more on Lucille Kahn see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucille_Kahn



For more on Edgar Cayce see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce



- - - -



Message #6934 from <kodom2545@yahoo.com>

(kodom2545 at yahoo.com)



I was reading a biography of the American psychic Edgar Cayce (American Prophet

by Sidney Kirkpatrick) and I came across a couple of familiar names who were

considered among his best friends.



Can anyone help me obtain information on Lucille or her husband Dave's

relationship with Bill Wilson.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucille_Kahn



Also, in Kirkpatrick's book Mr. Cayce was said to have given a reading for Frank

Sieberling of Akron, Ohio, the founder of Goodyear.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Seiberling



God Bless,



Kyle



- - - -



Message #6935 from George Cleveland

<clevelandgeorgem@gmail.com>

(clevelandgeorgem at gmail.com)



I have been intrigued by the possibility of a connection with Edgar Cayce and

Bill Wilson. It seems unlikely that Bill would not have at least sought a

reading. All Cayce readings are well documented but are all numbered. So from

their archives I think it would be difficult to ascertain which reading may have

been Bill's.



Maybe there is anecdotal evidence elsewhere??



However, Cayce did weigh in on alcoholism. There's an interesting overview here:

http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/holistic_health/data/pralco3.html



Curiouser and curiouser.



George Cleveland


0 -1 0 0
7390 Lester Gother
Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? 5/20/2011 4:22:00 PM


Hello group,



In the 12 x 12 tradition 4, the 3rd paragraph, the first sentence reads: "When

A. A.'s traditions were first published in 1945 ..."



The question is the date 1945. The first through the fifteenth printings show

1945, the 29th printing in 1985 reads 1946.



Can someone comment on the background of this change? I always thought the

traditions were written in 1946.



AA Love and Service



Lester G

New Jersey


0 -1 0 0
7391 LES COLE
Re: Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? Pass It On -- Bill W. never a member of AA? 5/18/2011 5:44:00 PM


Let's remember how Bill Borchert handled this topic in his movie "MY NAME IS

BILL" a few years back. In it, Bill was rather perturbed that when he and Lois

decided to stop in at a Fellowship meeting one evening during a trip and they

sat in the rear of the room. Bill exclaimed to Lois to the effect ... "They

don't even recognize me," and she comforted him.



As we know, Bill Borchert says that he knew Lois very well and spent

considerable time at Stepping Stones, so it provides some credence to

the fact that Bill W rather enjoyed ... and expected ... notoriety.



Les Cole

Colorado Springs, Colorado


0 -1 0 0
7392 bernadette macleod
RE: Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? 5/26/2011 8:15:00 AM


On page 306 of our book Pass It On, mid-paragraph it is stated "they

(Traditions) were first published in the April 1946 issue of the Grapevine."

Earlier in Chapter Nineteen of the book, it states that after Jack Alexander's

article in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1931, the New York office was

constantly fielding calls, similar in nature, about the functioning of the

groups. The "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future", which the Traditions were

originally named, was Bill W.'s response to these emerging difficulties.



Bernadette M.

King City Group

King City, Ontario, Canada



- - - -



From: lgother@optonline.net (lgother at optonline.net)

Date: Fri, 20 May 2011

Subject: [Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date?



Hello group,



In the 12 x 12 tradition 4, the 3rd paragraph, the first sentence reads: "When

A. A.'s traditions were first published in 1945 ..."



The question is the date 1945. The first through the fifteenth printings show

1945, the 29th printing in 1985 reads 1946.



Can someone comment on the background of this change? I always thought the

traditions were written in 1946.



AA Love and Service



Lester G

New Jersey


0 -1 0 0
7393 James Blair
Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date? 5/26/2011 11:32:00 AM


Lester wrote





> Can someone comment on the background of this change? I always thought the

traditions were written in 1946.



The first issue of the AAGV was June 1944 and in June 1945 Bill W. became

editorial adviser and agreed to write articles.



He wrote a series which addressed the relations of the A.A. to his group, to AA

as a whole and to the place of AA in society. He also addressed the problems of

money, leadership and authority.



In the April 1946 issue of the AAGV, Bill wrote an article titled Twelve

Suggested Points for A.A. Tradition and they were set down in what we term the

long form and they were numbered.



So, while some of the articles by Bill were written in 1945 the naming of them

as Twelve Points of Tradition took place in April 1946.



Jim B.


0 -1 0 0
7394 Charley Bill
Re: Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query 5/26/2011 1:28:00 PM


1. I don't understand your question. Since the disease concept of alcoholism is

completely and accurately described, albeit in contemporary terms, in "The

Doctor's Opinion," an integral part of the basic text of AA; it should have been

the basis of the concept of alcoholism held by the members at that time and

since.



Perhaps your question could be restated like this: The disease concept of

alcoholism was first widely spread by its inclusion in the book, Alcoholics

Anonymous. How much effect did this have on the belief systems of the general

public in the U.S. in the 1040s and 50s?



I don't go back that far, but by the late '60s when I arrived, we were taught

the disease concept in AA, right away. I did hear Marty Mann give a talk on

alcoholism at the Navy's alcoholism clinic in Long Beach, California, sometime

in the early '70s. As I recall, she was then regarded as an emissary of Bill

Wilson and Alcoholics Anonymous with the mission of securing support for the

cause of alcoholism treatment in ways that AA could not. It was a great talk and

she had a fine message. (I think it was her Primer on Alcoholism.)



But her smoking indicated she had not recovered from her addictions. She was

completely enslaved by tobacco. When Dr Joe Zuska asked her to put out her

cigarette as they entered the hospital, the looked him in the face and said,

"Joe Zuska, you go to hell."



- - - -



On 5/25/2011 8:17 PM, Ron Roizen wrote:

>

> Hi,

>

> A colleague and I have been having a little debate. I wonder if the

> list would care to comment on these two questions:

>

> (1) How much, if at all, did the rise to prominence of the disease

> concept of alcoholism in the late 1940s and the decade of the 1950s

> percolate into the belief system of A.A. members and their conceptions

> of alcoholism?

>

> (2) How much, if at all, did confusion surrounding Mrs. Marty Mann's

> disease-concept campaign of advocacy in this period spread commitment

> to the disease concept in A.A.'s membership? By "confusion" I mean

> chiefly that A.A. members may not have been entirely certain whether

> Mann's pro-disease concept advocacy was a legitimate part of A.A.'s

> belief system or whether she was promoting the concept solely for the

> purposes of her National Committee for Education on Alcoholism (later

> NCA)?

>

> Comments on these questions much appreciated!

>

> Ron Roizen

> Wallace, Idaho

> <ronroizen@frontier.com>

> (ronroizen at frontier.com)


0 -1 0 0
7395 trysh travis
Yale School and NCA Yale School and NCA 5/26/2011 9:30:00 AM


Ron Roizen is blogging today on the Points blog on the issue of "What

Time Would You Like it To Be? Finessing Science at the Yale School and

the National Council on Alcoholism."



http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/



Trysh Travis



____________________________________________



Points: The Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/



What Time Do You Want it to Be? Finessing Science, Part Two

Posted on May 28, 2011 by ttravis



In the first segment of this post, Ron Roizen explored the congenial

relationship between the free and easy scientific method that prevailed at the

Yale School during the late 1940s and Marty Mann’s message-driven National

Council on Alcoholism. The second installment in his story brings in another

character– Alcoholics Anonymous– and shows how they all held hands.



The A.A. Grapevine Survey

Arguably the most notable – and perhaps also the most unlikely – of these

awkward interactions surrounded The A.A. Grapevine’s survey of alcoholism’s

symptomatology in 1945. This survey in due course provided the data for E.M.

Jellinek’s famous 1946 (8) and 1952 (9) articles describing an alcoholism

syndrome.



If some speculative historical interpolation may be forgiven – because the

exact origins of the Grapevine survey are not known: My hunch is that once

Marty Mann embarked on marketing the disease concept to the American public she

encountered questions about the concept she could not adequately address.



It’s likely, moreover, that when Mann called for backup at the Yale group its

scientists had little help to offer. Mann may have also turned to her

psychiatrist friend, Harry Tiebout, for help. Her request, in turn, may have

prompted the writing of Tiebout’s 1945 article on the syndrome of alcohol

addiction (10). Yet Mann was probably not entirely satisfied with Tiebout’s

article, as its symptomatology took a psychiatric (rather than a physiologic)

approach toward alcoholism. Thus, Mann may have soon come to the conclusion

that she needed to collect her own scientific data on alcoholism’s

symptomatology – in what would become the 1945 Grapevine survey.



Jellinek – slyly, I suggest — alluded to the homegrown origins of the

Grapevine survey and a homegrown rationale for its undertaking in the

introductory pages of his 1946 article. “Members of Alcoholics Anonymous,'

wrote Jellinek,



"see their own experience duplicated day in, day out by the many inebriates who

come to them for help. Again and again they hear about those drinking incidents

and behaviors which in their own cases seemed significant to them. The older

members of that informal organization of recovered alcoholics, no doubt, would

like to see some systematization of the knowledge derivable from the drinking

history. It is, presumably, because of this that the Grapevine, now the

official organ of Alcoholics Anonymous, published in its May 1945 issue a

questionnaire designed for members of Alcoholics Anonymous (p. 3, emphasis

added)."



I see slyness here on Jellinek’s part because he attributed the Grapevine

survey’s origins to a broadly diffuse alleged desire among “older members'

of A.A. for a systematization of their collective drinking experience. That

doesn’t quite ring true. A more candid description of the reasons behind the

survey might have noted Mann’s campaign’s unmet need for more scientific

stiffening for the disease concept.



Jellinek, also in the 1946 article, expressed diffidence about undertaking the

analysis of data arguably collected in a more or less unscientific fashion.

“After the questionnaires were returned,' he wrote,



"the editors of the Grapevine requested me to prepare a statistical analysis of

the data. I have undertaken this work with great interest but also with many

misgivings. Statistical thinking should not begin after a survey or an

experiment has been completed but should enter into the first plans for

obtaining the data. In the questionnaire under consideration this requirement

was neglected (p. 5)."



It is well to step back and take in the irony attaching to the

Grapevinesurvey’s story. Should the known part of this story and my guesswork

prove more or less correct, then: First, Yale scientists hired a publicist to

promote the disease concept. Then the concept turned out to lack good

scientific legs. The publicist, in turn, launched her own survey study — in

order to provide rudimentary data buttressing alcoholism’s disease character.

Next, a Yale scientist reluctantly agreed to analyze the data. He published two

papers stemming from the survey (1946 and 1952). In due course a chart showing

alcoholism’s symptom progression (in the 1952 paper) became widely distributed

within the alcoholism movement.



“This chart,' wrote Robin Room (8), “particularly as adapted by [Max]

Glatt, is probably the most widely diffused artifact of the alcoholism

movement’s disease concept.' Quite a story.



Summing Up

Players in all institutions engage in back-stage communications about how best

to pursue their aims and the limits of appropriate actions. The correspondence

I’ve made use of in this post sheds new light on Mann’s organization’s

weak rhetorical position respecting the alcohol science it sought from Yale.

O’Connor’s correspondence with Straus and with Bacon illuminated the limits

of what Yale science could offer on issues that were important to NCA’s

broader campaign. Mann’s correspondence with Haggard, on the other hand,

showed how she sought to shape Yale science along lines that were useful – or

at least not obstructive – to her campaign’s goals. The story of the

Grapevine survey suggested how the role relationship between Mann’s group and

the Yale group could become partly reversed. Mann, in all probability, designed

and carried out the data-gathering for this study – a scientific task the Yale

group might have undertaken. There are no one-way streets in this picture of

interaction concerning science between NCA and Yale. Not-so-hard science could

be finessed, massaged, or negotiated when the situations and the goals of the

two institutions warranted.



Notes

(8) Jellinek, E.M., “Phases in the Drinking History of Alcoholics: Analysis of

a Survey Conducted by the Official Organ of Alcoholics Anonymous,' Quarterly

Journal of Studies on Alcohol 7:1-88, 1946.



(9) Jellinek, E.M., “Phases of Alcohol Addiction,' Quarterly Journal of

Studies on Alcohol 13:673-684, 1952.



(10) Tiebout, Harry M., “The Syndrome of Alcohol Addiction,' Quarterly

Journal of Studies on Alcohol 5:535-546, 1945.



(11) Yet, and interestingly, Mann cited Tiebout’s 1945 article, and not

Jellinek’s 1946 and 1952 articles, as authority for the disease concept claim

in her 1950 book, Primer on Alcoholism.



(12) Room, Robin G. W., Governing Images of Alcohol and Drug Problems: The

Structure, Sources and Sequels of Conceptualizations of Intractable Problems,

Ph.D. dissertation, University of California, Berkeley, Sociology, 1978, p. 55.



____________________________________________



AND FURTHER ALONG ON THE SAME WEB PAGE:



What Time Do You Want It To Be? Finessing Science at the National Council on

Alcoholism and at Yale

Posted on May 26, 2011 by ronroizen9



Over the course of the second half of the 20th century Mrs. Marty Mann and her

National Council on Alcohol (NCA) became the best known public advocates of the

disease concept of alcoholism in the United States. Mann’s great campaign,

however, harbored a vexing rhetorical weakness.



All the News that's Fit to Print



From its outset–with NCA’s (1) launch in the autumn of 1944–Mann’s

organization purported to convey ostensibly sound scientific knowledge and facts

about alcoholism to the American public. Mann was a publicist, not a scientist;

more to the point, scientific knowledge about alcoholism (including even whether

such a phenomenon might confidently be said to exist) was scant and unreliable.

This awkward behind-the-scenes circumstance created some equally awkward and

unlikely back-stage interactions between NCA and the Yale Center of Alcohol

Studies.NCA relied on the Yale group for scientific support. Yet–as

contemporary correspondence shows –Yale scientists weren’t always ready with

the goods; neither did the Yale group’s scientific work always comport with

Mann’s group’s aims.



Uncertain Science and Cross-Influences

One of Mann’s objectives in NCA was to shift the American public’s image of

the alcoholic from that of the skid row derelict to that of the average Joe or

Jane. Some sort of credible statistical data were needed to support such a

shift. What had Yale science to offer? In 1957, Mollie O’Connor, NCA

executive assistant and fact-checker, wrote to Robert Straus (formerly at the

Yale group but by then at the University of Kentucky), asking permission to use

Straus’s estimate that 10 to 15 percent of alcoholics “were of the visible

skid row type…' (2). Straus’s reply was the soul of candor. “I have

been trying to recall,' wrote Straus, “just when and under what

circumstances I might have made such an estimate….To my knowledge this factor

has never been counted or measured and any statistics must necessarily be

guesses' (3). Straus closed his reply to O’Connor with a broad disclaimer:



"In short, what I am really getting at is the fact that I have no legitimate

basis for providing statistics on the relative percentages of skid row or other

alcoholics. Were you to ask me for my opinion, I would say that probably no

more than 15 to 20 percent of our problem drinkers represent the skid row group.

If you feel that this would have any value, you may quote this as a personal

opinion."



In a similar vein, NCA wished to lower the age distribution of alcoholics, thus

also eroding the image of the aging skid row bum. O’Connor wrote to Selden D.

Bacon in 1957 asking permission to quote from an article in which he’d written

that three out of four alcoholics were between the ages of 35 and 55 (4).

Bacon’s reply cannot have offered O’Connor much confidence in his estimate:



"I suppose it’s all right for you to quote the age-range figure. Nobody

knows, and this sounds just as worthwhile as many other statements which purport

to be factual. I think the statement would be somewhat better if it started

with “probably,' but this might so weaken it for your purposes that you

would prefer to have it as it is in your letter. So, go ahead and, if anybody

challenges it, we’ll just counter-challenge them to produce a better figure

(5)."



Marty Mann sometimes tried to influence the future path of scientific research

at the Yale group. In 1948, for example, she penned a detailed letter to Howard

W. Haggard arguing that the group should do more physiologically oriented

research on alcoholism. Near the close of this missive, Mann wrote:



"Incidentally, I want to add here, that I feel strongly the need for more and

more physiological research under the Yale plan. I get more questions on that,

than on any other phase of our work excepting on how we help them to do

something ([6] original emphasis)."



On another occasion, Mann complained bitterly in a letter to Haggard that that a

Yale group author was employing the term “drinking habit' in a forthcoming

Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol article. She wrote in part:



"On the surface, this perhaps does not seem very important, but from my point of

view, it could scarcely be more important. The entire burden of my talks and

efforts is directed toward a new concept of alcoholism and a new and more

enlightened attitude toward its victims. This concept and this attitude depend

[sic] very heavily upon phraseology, for after all, words embody concepts. The

hardest job I have is to overcome the too familiar phraseology of the ubiquitous

“drys' a phraseology which bears in its train the associations they have

given to certain phrases. Since practically all school teaching on this subject

has been under their control for at least fifty years, most adults have at some

time learned the typical temperance teachings, and whether or not they agree,

the use of certain phrases inevitably calls up some of these associations (7)."



Up Next: The Unsound Science of the AA Grapevine Survey.



Notes:



(1) At its founding, Mann’s organization was the “National Committee for

Education on Alcoholism'; its legatee is the “National Council on Alcoholism

and Drug Dependence.'



(2) Mollie O’Connor to Robert Straus, Nov. 1, 1957, Box 1, Folder “Facts

on…,' Special Collections, Syracuse University Library.



(3) Straus to O’Connor, Nov. 7, 1957, Box 1, Folder “Facts on…,' Special

Collections, Syracuse University Library.



(4) O’Connor to Selden D. Bacon, Nov. 14, 1957, Box 1, Folder “Facts

on…,' Special Collections, Syracuse University Library.



(5) Bacon to O’Connor, Nov. 18, 1957, Box 1, Folder “Facts on…,' Special

Collections, Syracuse University Library.



(6) Mann to Bacon, Aug. 10, 1948, Box 5, Folder “Yale Summer School,'

Special Collections, Syracuse University Library.



(7) Mann to Bacon, Feb. 26, 1946, Box 5, Folder “Yale Summer School,'

Special Collections, Syracuse University Library.


0 -1 0 0
7396 aadavidi
obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) 5/27/2011 3:07:00 AM


A man of great character and love, born September 25, 1921 in Malmo, Sweden,

died May 6, 2011 at 6:20 PM surrounded by family and friends. Served in Swedish

Royal Airforce during WWII. He met Karin on June 6, 1944. Married 64 years. They

emigrated to America in 1948 eventually settling in Laguna Beach and finally in

Laguna Woods.



He is survived by wife Karin; brother Carl (Britta,) their son Mike; sister

Margareta her children Anita and Robert, and grand daughters Alison and Natalie.

Children: Carolyn, daughter Kaisa (Brian); Claudia (Craig); Katrina(Ken) son

Michael, daughter Amy(Cody), and two great grand children, Trey and Harper; son

John-Eric (Jayne).



For the last 48 years of his life John evolved to become a highly loved and

respected member and a much loved speaker in the fellowship of Alcoholics

Anonymous. He epitomized the finest ideal of AA - making sure that everyone,

especially the befuddled newcomer, knew that they were loved.



Memorial Service to be held May 14 at 10 AM Laguna Presbyterian Church, 415

Forest Avenue, Laguna Beach.



http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=151166\

418



0 -1 0 0
7397 Michael
Stepping Stones Stepping Stones 5/28/2011 12:32:00 PM


Hi all,



I'm going to visit Stepping Stones next week (June 7th) and was

hoping I could get sort of a "must see" list from some AAHL

members.



I've visited Stepping Stones once before and there's just so

much to see and experience that I knew I was passing by some fascinating stuff

that I just wasn't knowledgeable about.



I know things like the desk in Wits End was Hanks and that Father

Ed's cane and crucifix are there also, but I'm sure there are a

lot of things like that that I'm not aware of, so… any tips for

getting the most out of this next visit would be greatly appreciated!



Thanks,



Mike Margetis

Brunswick, Maryland


0 -1 0 0
7398 joe
AA History tourism locations AA History tourism locations 5/31/2011 10:25:00 PM


I ran across a reference to a list of AA tourism locations put together by some

past and present members of this forum. The link is no longer there, so I

thought I would pose the question to the group.

If you were travelling to locations across the USA, what famous AA sites would

you recommend visiting?


0 -1 0 0
7399 trysh travis
Ron Roizen on Max Glatt Ron Roizen on Max Glatt 5/31/2011 11:09:00 PM


Ron Roizen is blogging about Max Glatt and the disease concept at

Points this evening: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/.



Trysh Travis


0 -1 0 0
7400 Joanna
Re: Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query Disease concept: diffusion and confusion query 5/31/2011 10:39:00 AM


Hello all - I just want to respond to something I see here in this first post by

Charley Bill - and of course this does not have to do with the question being

raised, but I feel that it is important enough to be addressed.



"But her smoking indicated she had not recovered from her addictions. She was

completely enslaved by tobacco. When Dr Joe Zuska asked her to put out her

cigarette as they entered the hospital, the looked him in the face and said,

"Joe Zuska, you go to hell.""



Regarding this point: I am just going to clarify here that we are ALCOHOLICS

Anonymous. We don't claim to have a solution for ALL addictions - just one for

ALCOHOLISM. I feel this is important to note. Bill W died of emphysema due to

smoking as well. Read the last portion of A VIsion For You regarding this -



Joanna W.

Area 10


0 -1 0 0
7401 royslev
Source of quote: newcomers are the lifeblood of the program Source of quote: newcomers are the lifeblood of the program 5/27/2011 12:53:00 AM


I'm pretty sure I did read somewhere in Bill's writings the statement that

"newcomers are the lifeblood of the program." I scanned through "As Bill Sees

It" but I couldn't find it there. Could someone give me a quick steer toward

the source of this quote? or was I hallucinating sober?



I know that the Big Book says on page 89 that "frequent contact with newcomers

and with each other is the bright spot of our lives," but this is not the quote

I was looking for.


0 -1 0 0
7402 royslev
Source of Carl Jung quote Source of Carl Jung quote 5/27/2011 1:14:00 AM


Wayne Dyer quoted Carl Jung as saying "One of the main functions of formalized

religion is to protect people against a direct experience of God," but he did

not indicate the name of the book and the page number where Jung himself made

that statement.



There are now hundreds of places on the internet where this quotation is cited,

but in every one of them which I have checked, they refer only to Wayne Dyer's

work. They never give any reference to a work by Carl Jung where we could read

in context what Jung himself had written on that subject.



Can anybody give me the name of the work written by Carl Jung, with page number

etc., where Jung made that statement? -- if in fact he ever did say that.


0 -1 0 0
7403 Gary Neidhardt
Re: correct date of Jack Alexander article correct date of Jack Alexander article 5/30/2011 10:44:00 PM


Of course the Jack Alexander article was dated March 1, 1941, and Bernadette was

only guilty of a typo when she wrote "1931."

 

Gary Neidhardt

Sober at the Summit

Lawrenceville, GA



- - - -



From: bernadette macleod <bernadette.john@sympatico.ca>

Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:15 AM

Subject: RE: Traditions written 1945 or 1946? Why does 12x12 change the date?



<<... in Chapter Nineteen of the book [Pass It On], it states that after Jack

Alexander's article in the Saturday Evening Post on March 1, 1931, the New York

office was constantly fielding calls, similar in nature, about the functioning

of the groups. The "Twelve Points to Assure Our Future", which the Traditions

were originally named, was Bill W.'s response to these emerging difficulties.>>



Bernadette M.

King City Group

King City, Ontario, Canada


0 -1 0 0
7404 Bryan Reid
Re: Stepping Stones: photos Stepping Stones: photos 5/31/2011 12:10:00 AM


I hope these links work for you. These are the pictures I took on my visit 6

years ago, which I put up on my Facebook page.



https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1096851744752.2016691.1330351527&l=848\

1cb7777




https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291103&l=9c4d6b989d&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291104&l=43babe8a35&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291118&l=481e5cfc2a&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291117&l=bb042c9adb&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291108&l=8b2c585958&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291116&l=be3c7591c6&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291109&l=91a5f8959a&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291111&l=1f4e091c0c&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291110&l=4af67f4fbd&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291107&l=de569d6403&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291115&l=dbdbe48105&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291105&l=f5f82b6bb1&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291106&l=da392c8d60&id=1330351527



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30291119&l=60ae54f139&id=1330351527







The pictures and captions show what the highlights were for me. I would

recommend allowing a MINIMUM of 30-45 minutes for the library upstairs. It is a

veritable history of AA, and to a lesser extent Al-Anon. Before she died, Lois

put little numbered stickers on all the framed pictures and letters. Then she

put up notes that identified what each item was, what it was about, who was in

it, etc.



It was a great experience for me and I loved every second of it. It was living

history.



Enjoy your visit, Michael. It's wonderful.



Bryan


0 -1 0 0
7405 LES COLE
RE: Stepping Stones Stepping Stones 5/30/2011 11:13:00 PM


Hi Mike:



Take a look at the picture on the wall opposite the desk. It is of Mark Whalon

and Charlie Richie. Mark of course was Bill's important mentor as a kid even

though he was 10 years older. Mark was the early influence for Bill to see the

"other side" of society than just the small-town culture. Mark remained a very

close friend throughout their lives.



Charlie was the Burnham caretaker at the Camp at Emerald Lake and the residence

in Manchester Village. As a child (1932-33), I knew them both, but I do not

have a picture of either. Maybe you could take a pic of that pic and let me

know. Please give my regards to Annah.



Les Cole

Colorado Springs, CO

elsietwo@msn.com (personal)


0 -1 0 0
7406 John Moore
Re: obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) obit - John G. Ackerlind (1921-2011) 5/31/2011 9:22:00 AM


Sad to see Johnny's passing. Johnny Ackerlind was my first sponsor in 1971 in

Southern California. A new AA buddy took me to my second meeting in Laguna

Beach, the Wednesday nite speaker meeting that Johnny regularly attended.

Johnny said yes and invited me to his home in Santa Ana where we sat and talked.

He offered to help me any way he could and it was my first close look at a

drinker just like me, who had gotten sober and put his life back together in AA.



He was a regular at the Men's meeting at Canyon Club and I am sure he there the

night I had to confess to "borrowing" money from the treasury. I learned a lot

about amends that week LOL and about grasping and developing a manner of living

that demands rigorous honesty.



Johnny was a wonderful witty speaker. He was invited to talk quite often and

his story was hilarious, and serious. He was a gentle soul and he held the

lantern for us during his 48 years of sobriety.



Two of Johnny's talks can be downloaded from my service site

http://aatalks.4shared.com/ and talks are listed in alpha order.



or you can download directly by clicking link, this was his share in 2009 at

Canyon Club in Laguna Beach Cal:

https://www.4shared.com/audio/RO-aXmMk/Johnny_A_Laguna_Beach_Cal_at_C.html



John M

DOS Dec 7 1971


0 -1 0 0
7407 Chuck Parkhurst
Re: Disease concept of alcoholism Disease concept of alcoholism 5/25/2011 6:38:00 PM


From Chuck Parkhurst and Rick Benchoff



- - - -



From: "Chuck Parkhurst"

<ineedpage63@cox.net> (ineedpage63 at cox.net)



I like to keep it simple and refer to my condition of mind and body using the

same terms our book does. That term is not disease. I believe I have an

illness and a spiritual malady. I hear many people in meetings talk about their

disease making them do this and that and their disease taking them places. It

sounds like an excuse for human behavior. I am selfish not because I am

alcoholic but because I am selfish. If my alcoholism caused all my problems,

they would have went away when I stopped drinking. Sadly, they did not.



I work in a LOT of halfway houses and low bottom drunk tanks....that is where I

came from. The stigma for alcoholism still exists even though it might not be

to the extent that it was in the 30's thru the 70's. I believe using the

terminology in the book helps keep the message pure. Instead our message is

being watered down and diluted. Our meeting have already become a breeding

ground for slogans, hearsay and sayings not only NOT in our book, but

contradictory to its message. There is no question I have an illness or

condition that will kill me and continues to get worse, even while I am not

drinking. I believe I have a daily reprieve and that is based on my

relationship to God. I do not need to be reminded about my illness (there will

be a time my memory will not be enough) but do have to continue to practice the

spiritual disciplines embodied in the steps.



These are my further thoughts and experience as to why I think terminology that

may sound trivial actually is not.



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst



- - - -



From: Rick Benchoff <rxichard2nd@yahoo.com> (rxichard2nd at yahoo.com)



To my fellow AA History-Lovers:



I've tried to stay away from the "disease concept" discussion. I'm a

"three-hatter." I'm a pharmacist, an addiction treatment professional, as well

as an alcoholic. The debate about whether "alcoholism" is a disease will

probably never disappear. The WHO and the AMA helped clear the way in getting

insurance plans to cover the medical costs of treatment, but convincing

non-alcoholics (including many medical professionals) that alcoholism is a

disease is like trying to explain the color purple to someone born blind. The

Big Book discusses this in a number of places. Alcoholics are bodily and

mentally different than non-alcoholics. They'll never "get it." The reason I

put the word "alcoholism" in quotation marks is that the DSM-IV terminology for

what AA members call alcoholism is "alcohol dependency."



It's too bad that the medical profession didn't use the term "disorder." There

are many illnesses (a term used in the Big Book) that are labeled as disorders.

Two that readily come to mind are attention-deficit disorder and post-traumatic

stress disorder. The general public believes that most diseases occur through no

fault of the sufferer. Yet in reality most of the health problems (and the

biggest killers) in the U.S. today are lifestyle-related. To really stir up

things, the U.S. Supreme Court does not consider alcoholism a disease, but a

form of "willful misconduct," but I digress once again.



Regardless of whether it's called a disease, an illness, a malady, a disorder,

or whether it's labeled as alcoholism, alcohol abuse, alcohol addiction, alcohol

dependency, dipsomania, etc., the bottom line is that alcohol kills a large

number of people who consume it. If that doesn't make it a significant public

health issue, I don't know what else to say.



Be well and with warm regards to all,



Rick B.

Hagerstown, Maryland



P.S. This Yahoo Group is not a closed, online meeting for alcoholics. Membership

in this group is not limited to AA members; it is open to anyone with an

interest in AA history. Therefore the discussion about tobacco use, nicotine

addiction or related illnesses by people relevant to the topic or to AA's

history is not out-of-bounds. The number one preventable cause of premature

death in the U.S. -- in alcoholics and nonalcoholics -- is tobacco use. Five

times as many people will die from tobacco-related illnesses in the U.S. this

year than from alcohol-related illnesses. Since many of AA's early pioneers (and

later ones, too) died from tobacco use, it is of historical significance.



Joanna has made an important observation about AA's "Singleness of Purpose."

However, let me stir up some things. It is interesting to note that the Fifth

Tradition states that, "Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its

message to the alcoholic who still suffers." By inference, this sentence implies

that AA groups may have secondary purposes. Hmm... Another interesting thought

is that an AA member with significant sobriety may still be suffering, yet

alcohol-free, but I digress.


0 -1 0 0
7409 jax760
Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor 6/5/2011 3:32:00 PM


Hi Gang,



Does anyone have a photo of Richard Peabody and/or Courtenay Baylor they could

send me? I have a pre-Big Book literature presentation to give and would love

Peabody's picture to present along with The Common Sense of Drinking portion of

the prentation.



Send to:



<jax760@yahoo.com>

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



Thanks and God Bless



John Barton


0 -1 0 0
7410 Hugh M.
Re: AA History tourism locations AA History tourism locations 6/1/2011 2:03:00 AM


From Hugh M. and Mike Batty



- - - -



From: "Hugh M." <humbc@shaw.ca>

(humbc at shaw.ca)



I would visit Dr. Bob's childhood home at 34 Summer Street in St. Johnsbury

Vermont. It is off the beaten path, but visiting it made the story of his early

years become real to me.



Hugh in B.C.



- - - -



From: Mike Batty <mcbat.t@rogers.com>

(mcbat.t at rogers.com)



Four sites stand out in my mind:



1. Dr Bob's home in Akron, Ohio.



2. GSO in New York City.



3. Stepping Stones -- Bill and Lois' final home



http://www.steppingstones.org/visiting.html says the "Stepping Stones physical

address is 62 Oak Road, Katonah, NY 10536, even though the house itself sits on

the Bedford Hills border and Bill and Lois Wilson always referred to their home

as being in Bedford Hills. Both are villages of the larger town of Bedford."



4. Bill's Birthplace, (a bed and breakfast) in East Dorset, Vermont



A group of us organized a bus trip and did numbers 2, 3 and 4 in an extended

weekend. We arrived in East Dorset in time for Bill's Birthday and Picnic which

was a real bonus.



Of the four, this writer found the most "feel" and history at Stepping Stones.

All four are outstanding stops along the way and deserve much more than the time

we allotted. Each, I feel, deserves a full day and many returns.



In Service

Mike Batty

Waterloo, On


0 -1 0 0
7411 Bent Christensen
Re: AA History tourism locations AA History tourism locations 6/1/2011 1:21:00 AM


BENT CHRISTENSEN'S LIST



Hi, I was working on it a while ago. I don't think the list is complete, maybe

we can finish it together?



Place Special note Open for public Location/ State New York



NEW YORK CITY:



2nd office 1938-40, 30 Vesey Street

3rd office1940-44, 415 Lexington

6 years missing

4th office 1950-60, 141 East 4th Street

5th office 1960-70, 315 East 45th Street

6th office 1970-92, 468 Park Avenue South

7th office 1992-present, General Services Office & AA Grapevine (Physical

Location)

475 Riverside Drive

New York, NY 10115

212-870-3400

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org Meeting Friday at 11:00 YES New York City



Towns Hospital, 293 Central Park West

CalvaryChurch, 21st Street & Park Avenue South Yes

30 Rockefeller Plaza. Where Bill met "Uncle Dick" Richardson, conduit to John D.

Rockefeller. Yes



1335 Avenue of the Americas, New York Hilton, Site of the Bill W. dinner, put on

every year by the New York Intergroup since 1945. Yes



Madison Avenue & 44th Street, Roosevelt Hotel, Site of over 35 General Service

Conferences. Yes

Seventh Avenue& 56th Street, Park Omni, Site of General Service Conferences. Yes



38 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, Lois & Bill's home when they were financially

rich. No

182 Clinton Street, Brooklyn, Lois & Bills home where Ebby carried the message

to Bill No



CLOSE TO NEW YORK CITY:



Stepping Stones Foundation

P.O. Box 452

Bedford Hills, NY 10507

914-232-4822

http://www.steppingstones.org *YES



1st office, 17 Williams Street, Newark, (ask Merton if it still exist) 22

kilometers East of Manhattan 22 mins drive



NEAR NEW YORK:



Ebby's grave, Albany Rural Cemetery,

Cemetery Avenue

Menands, NY 12204, 249.45 kilometers north of New York

2 hours 49 mins drive Yes



Silkworth's grave, Glenwood Cemetery, Monmouth Pkwy.

West Long Branch, NJ84.65 km south of New York,

1 hour 4 mins drive Yes



BOSTON:



115 Newbury St.,at the Jacoby Club quarters where the first AA meetings in

Boston were held and by whom the early AA in Boston where was strongly

influenced, 333.30 kmnorth of Manhattan 3 hours 52 mins drive

Richmond Walker who wrote "Twenty-Four Hours a Day" which was the second most

read book in early AA lived and got sober in Boston in 1942



VERMONT:



The Wilson House

P.O. Box 46

East Dorset, 05253

802-362-5524

http://www.wilsonhouse.org *YES



Dr. Bob's Birth House in St Johnsbury, Vermont



Bill & Lois grave



MINNESOTA:



2218 First Avenue South, the worlds oldest Alano Club that's in operation today

and the place where Ed Webster in May 1942 started the earliest known example of

formal A.A. beginners classes. Yes



6301 Penn Ave S, the Nicollet Group founded by Barry C. the first sober AA

member in Minneapolis and Ed Webster the author of "The Little Red Book".



The group was based mostly on Dr. Bob's views and is still operating much like

the way they did in the 40ties.



AKRON:



1. Akron A.A. Archives. Yes

2. St. Thomas Hospital (Yes)

3. Dr. Bob's Office - Society Bank Bldg. No

4. Mayflower Hotel (Yes)

5. Kistler's Donuts (now S.K.) Doesn't exist anymore

6. Dr. Bob's Grave (across from 230 Aqueduct) Yes

7. King School - former site of first A.A. group No

8. Rev. Tunk's Rectory - at Casterton & Edgerton Rds No

9. T. Henry & Clarace Williams' Home - 676 Palisades No

10. Seiberling Gatehouse - Garman Rd. & Portage Path Yes

11. Portage Country Club

12. Dr. Bob's House, 855 Ardmore Avenue, Akron, Ohio 44302, phone 330-864-1935,

email http://www.drbobshome.org Yes

13. King School Group - AA group #1, now meeting at First United Church of

Christ - Wed., 8 PM closed speaker meeting Yes



CLEVELAND:



Cleveland central Office YES

2345 Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights -- Albert "Abby" Golricks home where the

first meeting was held. (Maybe it doesn't exist anymore.)



PHILADELPHIA:



Intergroup Office - Good but not great archive YES



NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE:



The Upper Room headquarters,

1908 Grand Avenue, Nashville, Tennessee 37212



____________________________________



*YES = Open by appointment

X = ved ikke om huset eksisterer endnu. Don't know if the place still exist.



Bil fra Akron til New York en dag.

Fra New York til East Dorset, Vermont ca. 6 timer i følge Mel



http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/map/map.html



Afstande

Akron New York Vermont San Antonio

Akron 715 km

6 timer 49 min 932 km

8 timer 54 min 2372 km

22 timer 40 min

New York 444,28 miles

6 timer 49 min 344 km

4 timer 41 min 2950 km

28 timer 12 min

Vermont 579,12 miles

8 timer 54 min 213,75 miles

4 timer 41 min 3247 km

31 timer 2 min

San Antonio 1.473,89 miles

22 timer 40 min 1 833,05 miles

28 timer 12 min 2.017,59 miles

31 timer 2 min



Lokale afstande

Manhattan Stepping Stone Silkworths Grave

Manhattan 61.80 km

1 timer 4 min 84.65 km

1 timer 4 min

Stepping Stone 38.40 miles

1 hour 4 mins

Silkworths Grave 52.6 miles

1 hour 4 mins



1 amerikansk mil = 1.609 km



AAs 1st meetings

1. Akron

2. New York

3. Cleveland

4. Philadelphia



Bent Christensen

Valmuevej 17

6000 Kolding

Tlf. +45 50 12 17 43

www.synlighjemmeside.dk


0 -1 0 0
7412 Charlie C
The newcomer is the most important person in the room The newcomer is the most important person in the room 6/5/2011 9:08:00 AM


Hi, seeing the post asking about the line that says "newcomers are the lifeblood

of the program" and its origins reminded me I have wondered if anyone knows

where the line that



"the newcomer is the most important person in the room"



comes from and has a sense of when it entered AA oral culture. I know it is not

from our literature, and I don't think I remember hearing it in my early years

in upstate NY in the late '80s, early '90s, but in the time since it seems to

have become widespread and often accepted unquestioningly, even though it might

seem in conflict with the ideas of comradeship, ego deflation etc. suggested in

the Big Book.  

 

Charlie Cowling



Set a stout hairt tae a stey brae.


0 -1 0 0
7413 James Blair
Anonymity break, removing non-God meetings from Toronto list Anonymity break, removing non-God meetings from Toronto list 6/8/2011 2:11:00 PM


(1) In the following article in yesterday's paper, Pete W. (past delegate and

trustee) broke his anonymity with a full face photograph along with giving his

last name.



(2) The article went on to describe how Toronto's two secular AA groups --

Beyond Belief and We Agnostics -- had their listings removed from Toronto's

official directory of AA meetings.



- - - -



Does religion belong at AA?

Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups

by Leslie Scrivener, Feature Writer

thestar.com Fri Jun 03 2011



Photo at the top of this article taken by Steve Russell of the Toronto Star,

caption below the photo says:



"Catholic priest Fr. Pete Watters [full face photograph standing in front of a

stained glass window] has been sober for 50 years. He says belief in a higher

power, God, is essential to getting sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. Photographed

at St. Andrew Church in Oakville on June 3, 2011."



THE TEXT OF THE ARTICLE:



It uses "fellowship" to help chronic drinkers quit the bottle. But there is

little fellowship in a schism that splintered the Alcoholics Anonymous umbrella

group in the GTA this week.



At issue is this question: Do alcoholics need God?



On Tuesday, Toronto's two secular AA groups, known as Beyond Belief and We

Agnostics, were removed or "delisted" from the roster of local meetings. They've

disappeared from the Toronto AA website and will not be in the next printed

edition of the Toronto directory.



The dispute started when Beyond Belief posted an adapted version of AA's

hallowed "Twelve Steps" on the Toronto website. They removed the word "God" from

the steps, which are used as a kind of road map to help drinkers achieve

sobriety.



"They took issue with a public display of secular AA," says Joe C., who founded

Beyond Belief, Toronto's first agnostic AA group, 18 months ago. (In keeping

with AA's tradition of anonymity, members are identified by first names only.)



It proved popular enough that a second group started up last fall; it took its

name from a chapter in the AA bible entitled Alcoholics Anonymous, commonly

known as the Big Book. The group, We Agnostics, had only recently completed the

paperwork to be part of AA before being booted out.



"What is unusual is that this didn't happen in some backwater, but that it

happened in a liberal, democratic, pluralistic place like Toronto," says Joe.



The name of God appears four times in the Twelve Steps and echoes the period in

which they were written -- the 1930s. It invites those seeking sobriety to

turn themselves over to God, who will remove their "defects of character." They

go on to speak of God's will for the recovering alcoholic.



"They (the altered Twelve Steps) are not our Twelve Steps," says an AA member

who was at Tuesday's meeting of the coordinating body known as the Greater

Toronto Area Intergroup. "They've changed them to their own personal needs. They

should never have been listed in the first place."



He says that in the early days of AA, meetings ended with the Lord's Prayer.

"That has obviously stopped in all but hard-core groups. We welcome people with

open arms. In our group we still say the Lord's Prayer. One guy was

uncomfortable with that. I told him to just step back when we pray. He does.

He's doing what he needs to do for him."



The issue of AA's use of God has come up frequently over the past 50 years. For

the most part, the organization -- which claims 113,000 groups around the

world -- permits other agencies to imitate its program, but not to call

themselves Alcoholics Anonymous.



Other secular organizations, including Save our Selves (or Secular Organizations

for Sobriety), offer addiction help similar to AA. But with some 100,000 members

in 2005, SOS is far less popular than AA, which reports a membership of about

two million. In Toronto alone, there are 500 AA meetings a week.



"This is not the first we've gone up against bigotry," says Larry of We

Agnostics. "This has been an ongoing struggle in North America."



One man wept in dismay over the delisting at Beyond Belief's Thursday night

meeting at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education on Bloor Street West.

Thirty-two people, mostly men, sat at desks in a classroom.



"I do believe in God," he said after the meeting. "But you don't need to believe

in God to recover and I don't think it's appropriate at AA."



The meeting opened with a statement that said, in keeping with AA tradition, the

group did not endorse or oppose either religious belief or atheism. "Our only

wish is to ensure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without

having to accept anyone else's beliefs, or having to deny their own."



"I've tried AA meetings and I couldn't get past the influence of right-wing

Christianity," said a big, Liam Neeson look-alike.



"Last night I went to a meeting and it was like a sermon again," he told the

group. "I felt I should quit.



"But someone told me, 'hey, go downtown, there's an atheist/agnostic meeting.'

So I thought I thought I'd give AA one last chance and I came here."



There's a moment's pause.



"Welcome," the group said.



One of the members, Roger, took issue with AA's concept of the "God of your

understanding."



"First, there is a gender problem (several of the steps refer to Him). But more

importantly, a creator God with a personal interest in me doesn't fit well with

my understanding of how the cosmos works."



In January, Rev. Pete Watters, 82, and a Catholic priest, celebrated 50 years of

sobriety with AA. Several thousand came to an Oakville union hall to celebrate

his anniversary.



He knew the roots of the movement well and travelled for seven years with the

late Bill Wilson, the charismatic co-founder of AA and author of the Twelve

Steps.



In 1961, Wilson, whose early thinking on AA was influenced by the British

evangelical Oxford Group, addressed the problems faced by non-believers. He

opened the tent to all, but wrote that doubters could eventually take the first

"easy" step into "the realm of faith."



"People and agencies can help," Watters says, "but the only one who can restore

that person to permanent sobriety is God. But that's the God of your

understanding -- that can be anything you want."



In AA God can be interpreted as an acronym for "good, orderly, direction," or as

something that can be found in nature, a set of ethical principles, or even in

the courage of fellow AA members.



But it's essential to turn yourself over to something or someone other, says

Watters. "If you don't believe in any power greater than yourself, you are on

your own."



A woman member of a group that adheres to the traditional Twelve Steps puts it

this way: "You need to believe in something higher than yourself. Our self got

us drunk."



Different steps



TWELVE STEPS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS THAT CITE GOD:



2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to

sanity.



3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we

understood Him.



5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of

our wrongs.



6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.



7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.



11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with

God, as we understood Him, prayer only for knowledge of His will for us and the

power to carry that out.



BEYOND BELIEF'S ADAPTED TWELVE STEPS:



2. Came to accept and to understand that we needed strengths beyond our

awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.



3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of the AA

program.



5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being, the

exact nature of our wrongs.



6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.



7. Humbly sought to have our shortcomings removed.



11. Sought through mindful inquiry and meditation to improve our spiritual

awareness, seeking only for knowledge of our rightful path in life and the power

to carry that out.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
7414 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
Re: Anonymity break, the anonymity issue Anonymity break, the anonymity issue 6/5/2011 10:56:00 PM


From Abd ul-Rahman Lomax, "Gerard" <GRault>, "Michael" <mfmargetis>, and Mike

Portz



- - - -



From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <abd@lomaxdesign.com> (abd at lomaxdesign.com)



James Blair wrote:

>(1) In the following article in yesterday's paper, Pete W. (past

>delegate and trustee) broke his anonymity with a full face

>photograph along with giving his last name.

>

>(2) The article went on to describe how Toronto's two secular AA

>groups -- Beyond Belief and We Agnostics -- had their listings

>removed from Toronto's official directory of AA meetings.



Somehow the basic integrity of the AA Traditions comes to be

forgotten and Personal Opinion reigns.



That news from Toronto is shocking, except for the fact that all AAs

are human, and humans do stuff like this. I hope this is a transient

aberration. Usually intergroups have more sense.



The long form of Tradition 3:



>3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.

>Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.

>membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three

>alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an

>A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.



While the Traditions are like the Steps, suggested, Tradition 3 is as

explicit as can be imagined. Those two groups are not "affilitated"

with some group other than AA, they do not require "atheism" or

"agnosticism" for membership, just as other AA groups do not require

a belief in God.



Given that these are "alcoholics gathered together for sobriety,"

it's clear that they may "call themselves" an "AA group," and that

this does not depend on "conformity" to anything. While there might

somewhere, sometime, be a reason for making exceptions, this isn't

it, at all. As long as those groups do not represent that the form of

the Steps and Traditions that they use is not the generally accepted

form, there is no harm at all in allowing this difference, and that

AA groups could differ from each other is very much part of what

caused AA to grow so rapidly, it was part of Bill W.'s genius or inspiration.



I'd encourage other AA members in Toronto, as long as the removal

from the meeting list persists, to attend the meetings, and to

mention these groups at other meetings, so that other members,

expecially newcomers, who might need them, can find them. There is no

requirement that intergroups list all meetings, though it's obviously

desirable.



Has this issue ever been considered by the Conference?



- - - -



From: "Gerard" <GRault@yahoo.com> (GRault at yahoo.com)



Hmmm. I thought the only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop

drinking, and that any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety

may call themselves an A.A. group. . .



Gerry



- - - -



From: "Michael" <mfmargetis@yahoo.com> (mfmargetis at yahoo.com)



I read the article on anonymity in Sunday's NY Times a couple of weeks ago. The

author totally misses a much larger and more important aspect of

breaking anonymity: it's harmful for the person who is breaking it!



AA has survived plenty of relapses by public figures over the years that

have broken their anonymity, so I don't think that's such a big

concern any more, but the whole concept of humility is lost in his

discussion, that's what jumped out at me when I read the article.



Humility, sacrifice, worker among workers, these are the type of

qualities that are spiritually healthy for us! A desire to be

recognized, standout, be the center of attention…different…these

things are poison for us. (Even if it's disguised as a way to

"carry the message" )



Anyway, that's my imperfect opinion on this anonymity discussion.

I'm a firm believer in the wisdom and necessity of the 11th and 12th

traditions.



- - - -



From: Mike Portz <mportz2000@yahoo.com> (mportz2000 at yahoo.com)



"No person speaks for A.A. as a whole."



We have 12 Traditions. There are no punishments for not adhering to them. All

A.A. groups and their members "have the right to be wrong." I reckon that

includes being disrespectful and self-centered. Also the right to be a "horses

ass." I sometimes excel at these shortcomings. (way less often then I use to)

The author has a right to state his opinions both as a fellow and a USA citizen.

I'm very sorry he does not choose to honor and respect the fellowship that has

probably brought him and his loved ones so much.



I am very much in opposition to the thinking (or lack their of) by celebrities

who choose not to honor our media standards for anonymity. Beyond our media

standards, personal anonymity has been left up to each individual member,

hopefully with the guidance of most A.A. groups and their members "ultimate

authority." I feel a vast majority of our membership in Las Vegas, and certainly

many of our "celebrity" members nationwide, just don't understand anonymity or

our Traditions in general, or the reasons they are so greatly important to our

society and its future. I don't believe they really have any comprehension of

how important these really are. Just as I didn't for way to long.



In Las Vegas it seems to me that the fellowship, the groups and individual

sponsors, do little to educate new or older members to the importance of

anonymity, or our Traditions. Most members tend to say in meetings and agree

that "oh, yes, the Traditions are very important." But if you get into a

conversation about why they are important or what the mean, well its almost

always a short conversation because the only real knowledge a majority of our

members have about the Traditions, is how they interpret what they, the

individual member, have read on the wall. That sure didn't work for me.



It has taken me a long time to comprehend why we have the standard for anonymity

that we do. My sponsors never took the time to educate me or tell me where I

could find information to read about our anonymity, or Traditions in general, so

I could understand them. Oh they did take me through the Traditions. They took

about 1-2 hours total on the subject. I never have heard anyone speak to the

importance of anonymity, or more importantly why it is so important in a

meeting. Nor have I ever heard any of our inspirational (some call them circuit)

speakers speak in depth about the subject of anonymity.



When I think about it, well I don't believe I've heard a discussion on the

Traditions in any Las Vegas meetings in way over a year. I do have CD's devoted

to discussing the Traditions by Bob D. and Clancy I. which helped broaden my

understanding of "The Twelve Points To Assure our Future." I don't believe their

are more then a few meetings in Las Vegas that are solely "Traditions meetings."



I finally found out that the "Traditions" and "Anonymity" are talked about and

explained in depth by their author and our co-founder in the non-conference

approved "Language of the Heart" as well as the "conference approved" A.A. Come

of age." I did not discover they (anonymity and the Traditions) were included in

these books because anybody "in a meeting" ever mentioned or stressed that all

should think about they might want to read these two books by our co-founder

because they explained Anonymity, the Traditions and much more by the man who

basically wrote and put together most of our program. I fell into it because I

had a keen interest to learn everything I could about A.A. and how it works.



My point is, that maybe we A.A. members should take what the author (one of our

fellows) wrote (which basically states that Anonymity is not very important to

A.A. anymore) and make good usage of what I consider to be his unwarranted,

illiterate and non-factual criticism, -to our hearts, our minds and mutual love

for A.A. I believe we need to consider that if Anonymity and the Traditions are

to remain as the "12 points to assure the future" of our society, we need to

start thinking about what additional methods we could take, as a society and

individuals, to "spread the word" and explain why Anonymity and the Traditions

are so very important to our continued survival. Like the gentleman's article

seems to state about the decline in the importance of anonymity to our

fellowship, we might seriously take into consideration if it is also happening

to our Traditions in general.



In Fellowship,

Mike Portz


0 -1 0 0
7415 Ernest Kurtz
Re: Disease concept of alcoholism Disease concept of alcoholism 6/5/2011 9:37:00 AM


Devoid of all humility, may I suggest googling "Alcoholics Anonymous and the

Disease Concept of Alcoholism" by clicking on this link:



http://tinyurl.com/6b593cx



-- or going directly to Ernest Kurtz, Ph.D., "Alcoholics Anonymous and the

Disease Concept of Alcoholism" at:



http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1048/1/Alcoholics-Anonymous-and-the-Diseas\

e-Concept-of-Alcoholism/Page1.html




-- or to use another link to this article, by going to



http://tinyurl.com/ys4kgo



One may link also to related articles at



http://www.bhrm.org/papers/addpapers.htm



-- ernie kurtz


0 -1 0 0
7416 J. Lobdell
Re: Disease concept of alcoholism Disease concept of alcoholism 6/5/2011 8:54:00 AM


Historical antecedents: early Fifth Tradition, E. M. Jellinek, and also OXFORD

GROUP PRESUPPOSITIONS.



I believe that in one of the very early versions of the Fifth Tradition it reads

"suffers alcoholism" -- which I have heard it suggested may mean "doesn't yet

know there is a way out" -- presumably therefore particularly needing to have

the message carried to him (or her).



As to the "disease concept," the understanding of that term by Yale and Bunky

Jellinek -- which is certainly relevant here -- is given pretty fully in his

1960 book The Disease Concept of Alcoholism -- which is not the same use of the

word "disease" as in the statement that the ASAM has declared alcoholism a

disease.



And of course, the First-Century Christians (the Oxford Group) whom the early AA

people sought to emulate had a disease concept of sin -- a disease to be treated

with pharmakon athanasias, the medicine of immortality.



_______________________________________



Note from G.C. the moderator: the exact "medicine of immortality" phrase went

all the way back to St. Ignatius of Antioch circa very early second century

A.D., and before that, to the cult of the goddess Isis. A long history indeed

for the notion of spiritual salvation as a healing process.


0 -1 0 0
7417 hphopeandjoy
King School cowbell King School cowbell 6/10/2011 7:55:00 AM


I've read somewhere that King School had a cowbell, and that the cowbell was

rung to limit sharing time.



Can anyone recall that reference ??



Matt


0 -1 0 0
7418 cometkazie1@cox.net>
Re: Disease concept of alcoholism Disease concept of alcoholism 6/4/2011 9:06:00 PM


Isn't this thread on the history of the disease concept of alcoholism, not on

members' opinions of the same?



History and recovery are two very different things. Let's stick to history

here.



Tommy H, in Kentucky now


0 -1 0 0
7419 trysh travis
Roizen on Jellinek Roizen on Jellinek 6/5/2011 9:56:00 PM


Ron Roizen has a blog post on E. M. Jellinek's early years at the

Worcester State Hospital on the Points blog today:

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/.



Trysh Travis


0 -1 0 0
7420 Michael Gwirtz
Cow bell picture Cow bell picture 6/10/2011 10:59:00 PM


Here is a photo of the cow bell at Dr. Bob's house I think. The photo id's its

use at the king school. The O.G. Bell is also shown. I don't know if the photo

can post. I think it is also at silkworth.net

Yis,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila,PA- where Young Peoples Groups began

Going to EURYPAA 2 in Dublin,Ireland

In August, and NAAAW in Helena in Sept.


0 -1 0 0
7421 corafinch
Re: Source of Carl Jung quote Source of Carl Jung quote 6/8/2011 4:35:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "royslev" <royslev@...> wrote:

>

> Wayne Dyer quoted Carl Jung as saying "One of the main functions of formalized

religion is to protect people against a direct experience of God," but he did

not indicate the name of the book and the page number where Jung himself made

that statement.

>

> There are now hundreds of places on the internet where this quotation is

cited, but in every one of them which I have checked, they refer only to Wayne

Dyer's work. They never give any reference to a work by Carl Jung where we could

read in context what Jung himself had written on that subject.

>

> Can anybody give me the name of the work written by Carl Jung, with page

number etc., where Jung made that statement? -- if in fact he ever did say that.

>



It does sound like material in some Jung letters and articles from the 1950s,

although not word-for-word. In a 1954 letter to Pere Lachat, found in the book

Psychology and Western Religion, pp.233-245, Jung describes the frightening

aspects of encounters with God, particularly as in the Old Testament, and says

(p. 234), "One feels much safer under the shadow of the Church, which serves as

a fortress to protect us against God and his Spirit. It is very comforting to be

assured by the Catholic Church that it "possesses" the Spirit, who assists

regularly at its rites. Then one knows that he is well chained up. Protestantism

is no less reassuring in that it represents the Spirit to us as something to be

sought for, to be easily "drunk," even to be possessed."



The most important thing to realize is that Jung did not mean the same thing by

"direct experience" as the Oxford Groupers. There were 2 different meanings to

"God" for Jung. The only one of interest to him as a psychologist was the

"God-image" or archetype, which is an empiric reality of the psyche. It is a

form of "autonomous psychic content" which can burst upon the ego in a powerful

"immediate numinous experience." This God-image contains both good and evil. The

other meaning of "God," the one who represents only the good, is for Jung in the

province of theology and philosophy. The psychologist can only deal with the

morally ambiguous God-image of the psyche. Jung received a lot of criticism on

this point.



The Oxford Group "vital religious experience" is of course an experience of

contact with the good God. The same letter quoted above contains a tangential

reference to the Oxford Group (p. 237): "Instead of taking up our cross, we are

told to cast it on Christ. He will take the burden of our anguish and we can

enjoy our "simple faith" at Caux. We take flight into the Christian collectivity

where we can forget even the will of God, for in society we lose the feeling of

personal responsibility and can swim with the current."



Why does this seem so different from other things Jung said about religion?

Probably because he had different views in the 1930s when he wrote, for example,

Modern Man in Search of a Soul. He was much more positive about the value of

religion at that point, and that is the Jung best known to the early AA people.


0 -1 0 0
7422 Tom Hickcox
AA History: Baton Rouge and New Orleans, Louisiana AA History: Baton Rouge and New Orleans, Louisiana 6/10/2011 10:24:00 PM


This is a typed, single spaced page from the Louisiana Archives,

which are now located adjacent to the Baton Rouge Central Office. A

fellow historian asked me to transcribe (transtype?) it so it could

be stored and distributed electronically.



I have remained faithful to P.S.O's work, including typos,

misspellings, etc. I have bracketed [ ] my comments.



P.S.O. brought A.A. to Baton Rouge, the first meeting on Dec. 10,

1944. I will leave accurate dating of this document to someone more

intimately familiar with him and his writing. I would guess middle '50s.



____________________________________



AA HISTORICAL DATA ON BATON ROUGE & NEW ORLEANS



NEW ORLEANS :- started March, 1943, apparently by Steve G. who was

called "the man with the book". this refers to an AA book, the BIG

BOOK about AA which a woman from New Orleans obtained while on a

visit to New York- failing to interest her son in same she gaveit

[sic] to Steve who carried it around till they got meeting places, or

rather until a few others arrived in New Orleans and got together

with Steve G. and started a group. I knew Wally H. and one other who

I thought started this group. Also there was Lefty H. and Don E. and

Esty S. Lefty came from Chicago. Also a Harold D. early

member. Anyway they met in Board Room of Chamber of Commerce, then

in Queen & Crescent Bldg. in an aoffice [sic], then to Beauregard

House ground floor until I think Frances Parkinson Keyes took over

the house to live in same; then they went to an upstairs place on

Poydras then to the big house of Dumaine where they had quite a club

which finally folded due I think to influx of drunks more interested

in a hangout [word typed over-hard to see well] than place to quit

drinking- back again to Queen & Crescent Bldg where Central Office

now is--meetings of many groups now held at 604 Iberville when they

have open meets--(forgot to mention Frank D. as an early

member. There are now 15 groups with membership of 200 or more,

some say 500. There are meetings every night in the week somewhere

or other in N.O.*



[*No end of parentheses]



BATON ROUGE;- started December 10, 1944 by a man who had been sober

for 7 years at the time, who had read Sat.Eve Post article, got a

book was a lone member in Shreveport from 1941 on, talked AA to

anyone who wold listen and finally one of those talked to namely Jack

Meredith, a non-alcoholic sent an alcoholic newsman one Rupert P. to

this Pat O. who explained to Rupert what he had seen of AA in New

Orleans and Little Rock where Pat had attended meetings. At Rupert's

suggestion a squib was put in the paper on 12/8/44 that a group was

to be started in B.R. This was vs advice of Larry J. in Houston who

suggested starting group quietly by getting names of alcs. from

ministers. Anyway first meeting had 7 in attendance of who 5 were

alcoholics and 3 are sober now for many years and 2 have been beset

with difficulties. First open meeting held at Wolf's bakery in Feb.

or March of 1945 with speakers from N.O -Lefty H. also Mr. R.

there. 1st Anniversary at Holsum Bakery, at which Dr. Smith from

Jackson talked. Meetings held in homes, then room at Istrouma Hotel,

Morning Advocate Board Room, Apt. over the Italian Gardens was a

clubhouse for some months, and the Presbyterian Church parlors(1st

Pres.), a detective room in the police station, then the judge's

office, the Heidelberg Hotel harbored most open meetings and closed

were held there for some time. Also Lucille Mae Grace got us OK on

use of room under North entrance stairs to Old State Capitol for a

while. We sure moved around. Membership varied from 7 or 8 up to 20

then down to 2 or 3 then up again maybe to 30 or 40, group split into

two, one of which folded. Original group still holding on altho

membership has turned over many times with a few always hanging on

either as bleeding deacons or elder statesman acc. to who judges

them. Looks like present membership of the two groups right now

would be somewhere between 60 and 80 members of varying shades of

activity. Judge that somewhere between 100 and 200 people are sober

today as result of these groups with possibly some 400 or 500

different individuals passing thru--many come a while, then stop but

stay sober some dont, [sic] some stay sober and stay active.



NORTH BATON ROUGE GROUP have [sic] been going some few years ow and

have done an escpecially [sic] wonderful job of starting and

fostering groups of AA both at East La. State Hospital, Jackson, La.

and also at La. State Prison at Angola. Clarence C. has been the

real ramrod of this activity.



P. S. O'Brien



END OF LETTER



Tommy H, still in Baton Rouge for a week or so


0 -1 0 0
7423 john wikelius
December 1945 Grapevine pages 13 and 14 December 1945 Grapevine pages 13 and 14 6/10/2011 2:42:00 PM


A number of years ago I purchased the first set pf large Grapevines in a

two-booklet format.  Yesterday I was putting the reduced pages into folders for

easy viewing by my homegroup and came to find out that I am missing pages 13 &

14 from December 1945.

 

Wondering if anyone has those pages which he or she could copy for me.



John Wikelius

Enterprise, Alabama

<justjohn1431946@yahoo.com>

(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
7424 Cindy Miller
Re: AA History tourism locations AA History tourism locations 6/5/2011 9:44:00 PM


From Cindy Miller, Tommy H., and Woody in Akron



- - - -



From: Cindy Miller <cm53@earthlink.net>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



Cornwall Press (now a series of artsy stores) in Cornwall, New York. Near West

Point.

Beautiful countryside. And the Painters Inn nearby is the one where they (Bill,

etc) all stayed while the BB was being planned ...



-cm



- - - -



From: Tommy H. <cometkazie1@cox.net>

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



Hugh M. wrote: "I would visit Dr. Bob's childhood home at 34 Summer Street in

St. Johnsbury, Vermont. It is off the beaten path, but visiting it made the

story of his early years become real to me."



I think the house is also his birthplace. I attended an A.A. meeting there in

the early '90s, when there were almost daily meetings. I don't know what the

current schedule is.



At the time, a number of counselors had offices there and they would let you

roam the house as long as it didn't interfere.



Another tourist attraction in St. J is the Fairbanks Museum. As far as Vermont

goes, it's not off the beaten path.



Tommy H, son and grandson of Vermonters



- - - -



From: Robt Woodson <wdywdsn@sbcglobal.net>

(wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net)



My suggestion, in the spirit of what eventually resulted in the AA fellowship's

celebrating our 76th Anniversary ...



When in New york, take a moment and stand outside the site of of Towns Hospital

on Central Park West ... now apartments (I was fortunate enough to have been

allowed a visit inside). Reliving there, Bill's '"spiritual experience" and his

vision at the time is in itself, a spiritual renewal ... see p.121 in "Pass It

On" and pp. 62, 63, and 64 in "AA Comes Of Age" ... and think about his thoughts

and vision for the future (of a "chain reaction" of alcoholic's working with

other alcoholic's each carrying "this message and these principles to the next"

(of his own determination at that time to work with other alcoholics) eventually

to become the basic tenet of AA) as described on p.64 in "AA Comes of Age". It

definitely moved me then...and it still does today.



Keep your powder dry; and do keep being good guys and girls!



Woody in Akron


0 -1 0 0
7425 Laurence Holbrook
RE: Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor 6/6/2011 3:04:00 PM


I couldn't find any web pictures, but I tripped over thie A&E bio of Caresse

Crosby originally Polly Jacob (1892 - 1970), Peabody's wife - prolly not

terribly useful, but interesting that "Caresse Crosby helped change fashion

and free women from confining corsets by getting the first patent for the

modern brassiere - or as we call it now the bra."



http://www.biography.com/articles/Caresse-Crosby-9262225

Caresse Crosby Biography

originally Polly Jacob

( 1892 - 1970 )



Publisher, poet, and inventor. Born Mary Phelps Jacob -- but usually called

Polly by friends and family -- on April 20, 1892, in New York, New York.

While she spent most of her career engaged in the literary arts, Caresse

Crosby helped change fashion and free women from confining corsets by

getting the first patent for the modern brassiere -- or as we call it now

the bra.



Caresse Crosby came up with the idea for the bra in 1913 and later sold the

patent for her invention. Two years later, she married Richard Rogers

Peabody, and the couple had two children. The union didn't last, however,

and Crosby became embroiled in a scandal when she fell in love with another

man while still married to Peabody. She divorced Peabody in 1921 and married

Harry Crosby the next year.



Not long after moving to Paris, Caresse and Harry Crosby immersed themselves

in the city's social happenings and began to travel in literary circles. She

changed her name to Caresse as part of her new literary persona. Crosby

published her first book, Crosses of Gold, in 1925. Her next work, Graven

Images, was released the following year.



Besides her own writing, Crosby and her husband established two publishing

imprints: Editions Narcisse and Black Sun Press. Through their company, the

Crosbys published the likes of Kay Boyle, Hart Crane, James Joyce, and

Archibald MacLeish. The great partnership between Crosby and her husband

crumbled after he and his mistress committed suicide in 1929. After his

death, Crosby continued on as an editor and publisher, putting out

collections of her late husband's work and letters as well as material by

Ezra Pound and many others.



In the 1930s, Caresse Crosby returned to the United States. She married

Selbert Young in 1937, but the relationship ended in divorce. Crosby shared

stories from her fascinating life in her 1953 memoir Passionate Years. She

later moved to Rome and established an informal artistic colony of sorts at

her castle home.



Caresse Crosby died on January 24, 1970, in Rome.



C 2011 A&E Television Networks. All rights reserved.



_____



From: jax760

Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011

Subject: Photos of Richard Peabody and Courtenay Baylor



Hi Gang,



Does anyone have a photo of Richard Peabody and/or Courtenay Baylor they

could send me? I have a pre-Big Book literature presentation to give and

would love Peabody's picture to present along with The Common Sense of

Drinking portion of the prentation.



Send to:



<jax760@yahoo.com <mailto:jax760%40yahoo.com> >

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



Thanks and God Bless



John Barton


0 -1 0 0
7426 J.BARRY MURTAUGH
Re: Cow bell picture Cow bell picture 6/11/2011 1:20:00 PM


where are the pics @ sikworth.net?

thanks

bear



On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Michael Gwirtz <Shakey1aa@aol.com> wrote: