tblYgr_AAHistoryLovers
YahooMessageID From FromEmail Subject SubjectSrt RecDate Message AttCount NewMsgFlag DelMsgFlag FavMsgFlag
8082 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden 12/31/2011 10:19:00 AM


The person who edited the second draft of Bill's Story was probably Joe Worden

(b 1895), not Joe Worth.



Sixty years later, during a 1999 interview, Dr. Bob's Daughter, Sue Windows

Smith, remembered the editor's name as Joe Worth.



Consequently, with this information, I had indicated the wrong name

for Bill's Story Second Draft. This information has been corrected on the PDF

file on this website:



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/



I am told there is a signature with the name "Worden" on the first Big Book

sold.



Bob S.



-------------------



P.S. Here's an excerpt from the full "Note" from CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY

QUARTERLY (Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown) Vol. 3, No. 3

[April-May-June 2007], pp. 3-4, which is all the attribution needed. You

might add that the signature in the 1st Big Book Sold shows the name as

Worden, not Worth.



In Jim B's account of early AA, one Joe W. (Jim actually records the last

name, but it will not be used here) is identified as the man who told Bill

to call the book (and the fellowship) Alcoholics Anonymous rather than

Anonymous Alcoholics. Jim records that this Joe W. was with the New Yorker,

but no New Yorker records available confirmed this. Research among various

Joseph W's who might have been ours provided a Joseph Hooker W., Jr., b.

Bridgeport CT February 2, 1895, son of Emma (b. 1875) and Joseph Hooker W.

Sr. (1868-1941), a telegrapher and then metering clerk for the railroad.

This identification was confirmed when the first page of signatures in the

"First Big Book Bought" in the Archives at GSO showed the name Joseph Hooker

W-----, Jr. Further research (Bridgeport Post) indicated he was married in

the late summer of 1923, when working for the New York Post, and a son.

Joseph Hooker W----- III was born October 13, 1924, at which time the

W-----s lived in Cos Cob CT. The marriage notice provides the information

that bride and groom would be living on Livingston St. in Brooklyn Heights,

that the bride had attended the Pratt Institute and worked for Franklin

Simon, and that the groom had attended Bridgeport High School and the Park

Avenue Institute, and previously worked for Metropolitan magazine.


0 -1 0 0
8083 Paul Paul Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure 12/31/2011 10:45:00 AM


http://www.archive.org/details/godismyadventure032951mbp



"a book on modern mystics masters and teachers"

by ROM LANDAU



Contains an early chapter on Buchmanism:

"IV. The Man whose God is a Millionaire

DR. FRANK BUCHMAN 141"



Not entirely complicit, not entirely critical, more or less empirical. I bought

a cheap used copy several years ago - now I see it's downloadable or can be read

online for free.



Best,

Paul





- - - -



FROM GC THE MODERATOR: I'm glad Paul sent this in, so we could post it. I would

still recommend that those who wish to know more about the Oxford Group start by

reading these two works:



A[rthur] J[ames] Russell, For Sinners Only (Tucson, Arizona: Hats Off Books,

2003; orig. pub. 1932).



V[ictor] C[onstant] Kitchen. I Was a Pagan (New York. Harper & Brothers, 1934).



And perhaps two or three other of the most famous positive accounts.



But Landau's chapter on Buchman, which Paul refers us to here, would be another

very valuable account to read, for anyone who wants to get a broader picture of

Buchman. There were those who criticized Buchman -- it is important to know why.


0 -1 0 0
8084 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden 1/1/2012 7:25:00 PM


So the man's name was Joseph Hooker Worden, Jr., and he worked for a while for

Metropolitan Magazine in New York City.



That makes better sense than trying to link Joe with the New Yorker magazine,

let alone trying to make him the founder of the New Yorker magazine.



Metropolitan Magazine (New York) -- see wikipedia article:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Magazine_%28New_York%29



The name of the magazine was changed in 1924, and it went out of business in

1925. There were enough similarities between Metropolitan Magazine during its

heyday, and the New Yorker magazine, to make it easy to see how confusion could

have occurred later on, about which one Joe had worked at.



Good! That is a mystery solved!


0 -1 0 0
8085 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler 1/2/2012 5:35:00 PM


From: Laurence Holbrook (Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com)>

(Email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)



Interesting to note that Fulton Oursler was the supervising editor of

Metropolitan Magazine?



- - - -



From: Glenn Chesnut



You're right! Some very interesting interconnections there. Shows how a couple

or more of our people in AA history may have first come in contact with (or

learned about) one another.



As you noted, the Wikipedia article on the Metropolitan Magazine in New York

talks about Fulton Oursler's involvement with that publication, which means a

point of contact between Oursler and Joe Worden:



=============================================

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Magazine_%28New_York%29



"In January 1923, on the urging of Supervising Editor Fulton Oursler, Bernarr

Macfadden bought the magazine, launching its new era with an abridged

serialization of Theodore Dreiser's banned novel The Genius. The first Macfadden

issue was dated February-March 1923. It then reverted back to a monthly. Fulton

Oursler's first serious novels, Behold This Dreamer! and Sandalwood were also

serialized. When the magazine's fortunes didn't improve, the title was changed

to Macfadden Fiction-Lovers Magazine with the October 1924 issue. Its last issue

was in August 1925."

=============================================



Message #8084

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8084

From Glenn Chesnut (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden



So the man's name was Joseph Hooker Worden, Jr., and he worked for a while for

Metropolitan Magazine in New York City.



That makes better sense than trying to link Joe with the New Yorker magazine,

let alone trying to make him the founder of the New Yorker magazine.



Metropolitan Magazine (New York) -- see wikipedia article:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Magazine_%28New_York%29



The name of the magazine was changed in 1924, and it went out of business in

1925. There were enough similarities between Metropolitan Magazine during its

heyday, and the New Yorker magazine, to make it easy to see how confusion could

have occurred later on, about which one Joe had worked at.



Good! That is a mystery solved!



- - - -



Message 8082

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8082

From "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212@comcast.net)>

(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)



The person who edited the second draft of Bill's Story was probably Joe Worden

(b 1895), not Joe Worth.



P.S. Here's an excerpt from the full "Note" from CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY

QUARTERLY (Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown) Vol. 3, No. 3

[April-May-June 2007], pp. 3-4, which is all the attribution needed. You might

add that the signature in the 1st Big Book Sold shows the name as Worden, not

Worth.



=============================================

In Jim B's account of early AA, one Joe W. (Jim actually records the last name,

but it will not be used here) is identified as the man who told Bill to call the

book (and the fellowship) Alcoholics Anonymous rather than Anonymous Alcoholics.

Jim records that this Joe W. was with the New Yorker, but no New Yorker records

available confirmed this.



Research among various Joseph W's who might have been ours provided a Joseph

Hooker W., Jr., b. Bridgeport CT February 2, 1895, son of Emma (b. 1875) and

Joseph Hooker W. Sr. (1868-1941), a telegrapher and then metering clerk for the

railroad.



This identification was confirmed when the first page of signatures in the

"First Big Book Bought" in the Archives at GSO showed the name Joseph Hooker

W-----, Jr.



Further research (Bridgeport Post) indicated he was married in the late summer

of 1923, when working for the New York Post, and a son, Joseph Hooker W-----

III, was born October 13, 1924, at which time the

W-----s lived in Cos Cob CT. The marriage notice provides the information that

bride and groom would be living on Livingston St. in Brooklyn Heights, that the

bride had attended the Pratt Institute and worked for Franklin Simon, and that

the groom had attended Bridgeport High School and the Park Avenue Institute, and

previously worked for Metropolitan magazine.

=============================================


0 -1 0 0
8086 ron.fulkerson@comcast.net ron.fulkerson@c... Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? 1/2/2012 7:49:00 AM


Les



Thanks for all your efforts and look forward to reading your book on Rogers

Burnham. Could you help with a project that we are working to continue? Bill

mentions in his taped conversations that he still had the rifle he used as a

youngster, a Remington 25-20 (page 15). The Remington Firearms site states that

it was not in production during the 1906 year. However, the Winchester site

proclaims widespread production of the 25-20 and its ease of reloading. With

this minor manufacturing issue, we contacted Stepping Stones research by phone.

We requested the make and model numbers for the rifles at the house and were

promised a call back. To date, that has not happened. Can you help?

Thanks...ronf


0 -1 0 0
8087 John Barton John Barton Re: Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler 1/2/2012 11:44:00 PM


Bill and Lois's apartment was on Livingston Street so there seems to be the

connection to Joe. This was the one where Bill broke through the wall and

combined the two units back in the 20's before the crash.

 

Further research (Bridgeport Post) indicated he was married in the late summer

of 1923, when working for the New York Post, and a son, Joseph Hooker W-----

III, was born October 13, 1924, at which time the W-----s lived in Cos Cob CT.

The marriage notice provides the information that bride and groom would be

living on Livingston St. in Brooklyn Heights, that the bride had attended the

Pratt Institute and worked for Franklin Simon, and that the groom had attended

Bridgeport High School and the Park Avenue Institute, and previously worked for

Metropolitan magazine.


0 -1 0 0
8088 Paul Paul Re: Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity 1/2/2012 5:55:00 PM


You should read Noll's book rather than the polemics and then you might think

differently. Hard to say, I've not seen any SIGNIFICANT (reads substantial =

substantive & sustained) so-called critique of his scholarship, IOW, GIVES

RELEVANT DETAILS. I'd be happy to take a look, w/o prior contempt, same as I did

*Synchronicity*. Anybody that believes bias doesn't exist, that much of the time

most anybody doesn't swim in it, then well, I dunno. Of course there's bias.

That needn't merit accusation. Anybody can "ignore" anything they want. THE JUNG

ESTATE WOULDN'T CLOSE THEIR ARCHIVES (because of Noll?) unless something rubbed

a few cultists the wrong way.



Yes, At the same time he states that he "read Noll's book(s) more carefully".

And perhaps for good reason,



The Poster





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "awuh1" wrote:

>

> I must admit to a sensing a certain bias in the posting Carl Jung - spiritual

vs. religious, and synchronicity. At the time of the sender's response ... he

admits to finishing neither [Stonebraker's] work nor the seminal work by Carl

Jung "Synchronicity, An Acasual Connecting Principle". At the same time he

states that he "read Noll's book(s) more carefully".

>

> The poster refers to Noll's book, "The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic

Movement", as "scholarly research" and offers up support for this proposition

via the Princeton University Press nomination of it for an award (they are, not

coincidentally, the publishers of the book, and, it did not get the award).

>

> The reviews of the book were far from universally positive. In the Journal,

"Bulletin of the History of Medicine" Volume 70, Number 3, Fall 1996 they write,

"In the guise of a scholarly text on the history of science, Richard Noll has

written a polemic in which he makes unfounded speculations about Jung's personal

and professional life. Specifically, he accuses Jung of having established a

neopagan religious sect, a so-called Jung Cult. As evidence for this accusation,

he offers his own questionable interpretations of Jung's writings ... "

>

> Personally I thought that this review of Noll's book was kind, given some of

the propositions put forth in his "research".

>

> With regard to spiritual vs. religious ... I think the poster is correct, most

of those familiar with AA history regard it as both old hat, AND splitting

hairs.

>

> Regards,

>

> Tom

>

> ________________________________________

> A response to Message #7334 from "Paul"

> (spectrumptg at yahoo.com)

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7334

>


0 -1 0 0
8089 hdmozart hdmozart Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous 1/1/2012 3:27:00 AM


I just discovered that p. 40 of the current pamphlet (P-17), "A.A. Tradition -

How It Developed - by Bill W" includes the 1955 Grapevine article, "Why

Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous" also by Bill W.



Hope this is helpful



Larry Holbrook

(Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com)

(410) 802-3099


0 -1 0 0
8090 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Mrs. Marty Mann and the medicalization of alcoholism Mrs. Marty Mann and the medicalization of alcoholism 1/3/2012 10:24:00 PM


From Points: The Blog of Alcohol and Drugs History Society,

article by by ronroizen9, a major author on alcoholism,

one of whose special interests lies in the study of

the work of Mrs. Marty Mann and Dr. Jellinek.



http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/mrs-marty-mann-and-the-medicaliza\

tion-of-alcoholism/




Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8091 John Barton John Barton Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group 1/3/2012 4:08:00 PM


Glenn is right ... you won't believe how often I hear this (the six steps or the

six tenets of the Oxford Group) at meetings, sometimes even from those who have

a good working knowledge of AA history. The Oxford Group had many "tenets" or

beliefs in addition to those discussed in Bill's story or the foreword to the

second edition of the big book.



The Five C's can be read in their entirety in Walter's book Soul Surgery. A

careful review of these principles will probably show the reader that the Oxford

Group tenets of surrender, sharing, restitution and guidance formed the heart of

the program of recovery as outlined and expanded in the 12 steps of AA.

 

Stepstudy.org has the electronic version of Soul Surgery which is downloadable.

 

The Golden Road Manuscript has excerpts of the work as a section in its 2nd

chapter and a copy of that can be found at this link.

 

http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/categories/show/82107

 

The title of the document is "The Cure of Souls" and is a quick read.

 

I believe someone mentioned a couple of books that could be read to better

understand the work. If I could humbly add these books to those suggested:

 

Soul Surgery

What is the Oxford Group

The Eight Points of the Oxford Group

 

God Bless

 

__________________________________________



From: Glenn Chesnut (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)>

Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011

Subject: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group





SEVERAL EARLY SIX-STEP VERSIONS OF THE A.A. STEPS



http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html



- - - -



It is a big mistake to speak of the Oxford Group as having had "Six Steps," or

in fact, any officially codified list of "steps" that you were supposed to work

through in the later AA fashion.



Let's please start giving the early AA people more credit for being creative,

innovative, and real masters of the spiritual life.



What people should look at instead are THE OXFORD GROUP FIVE C's. This list

originally arose in the American and British Protestant foreign missionary

movement. They discovered that preaching huge revivals did not work in countries

like India, China, Iraq, etc., and that if you were going to convert any souls

to Jesus Christ in those regions, it was going to have to be by means of

personal one-on-one evangelism.



Frank Buchman had already been trained and was experienced in Protestant foreign

missionary work when he came to England, and discovered that the Five C's also

worked on students at Cambridge and Oxford Universities. Then a number of other

prominent people joined his group -- newspaper editors, generals, bishops,

wealthy businessmen, and so on -- first in the U.K. and then in the U.S.



Insofar as the AA twelve steps are partially derived from Oxford Group beliefs

(the word "tenet" means belief), they were certainly heavily influenced in

certain important ways by the 5 C's. That's the place to begin if you want to

talk about what AA got from the Oxford Group. If you want lists to cite and

memorize, quit talking about "the Oxford Group's Six Steps" (these are imaginary

and never existed) and talk instead about "the Oxford Group's 5 C's."



The 5 C's were totally real, and very important to understanding the basic way

the Oxford Group really worked.



- - - -



THE FIVE C's OF CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY WORK, by which we could bring genuine

life-changing to ourselves and to other people:



1. Confidence: You could not do anything to bring someone else to Jesus Christ

until the other person had confidence in you. Usually that required me (the

missionary) admitting to the person whom I wished to convert, what my own most

secret and humiliating sins had been.



2. Confession: If we held back from turning our lives completely over to Jesus

Christ, it usually meant that we had some secret sin which we had never admitted

to anyone (having affairs if you were married, homosexuality, being filled with

resentment against the trustees of the boys' home we had once worked for, or

whatever). We had to confess that secret sin to some other human being, and MAKE

RESTITUTION if appropriate. Making restitution could mean writing a letter of

apology to the people against whom we held our resentment, returning money we

had taken from someone else under questionable circumstances, going back and

telling the truth if we had lied about someone, or whatever else.



3. Conviction: But I could not undergo a real conversion experience until I felt

truly convicted of sin. I had to admit that because I had committed this

particular sin, I was worthy only of the flames of eternal hellfire, and I had

to fall into a state of total terror, blind fear, complete self-loathing, and

absolute despair. I had to beat myself up over and over with thoughts of what a

bad person I was, and how terrible that thing was that I had done.



4. Conversion: I then had to turn to Jesus Christ and admit to him -- genuinely

meaning it -- that I was a hopeless sinner, thinking about the specific one or

two or three major sins I had committed, and then beg Jesus for forgiveness and

mercy.



5. Continuance: I then had to continue in this state of repentance over my sins

by daily religious exercises (prayer, quiet time, Bible reading) or whatever

else was necessary, and Jesus would give me the daily grace to avoid committing

those particular sins again.



- - - -



PLEASE NOTE that the Oxford Group did not teach a detailed inventory of all our

character flaws (in the way that AA did in its Fourth Step). They focused only

on asking Jesus for forgiveness for one or two or three specific sins that I had

committed. Please note that even the Big Book example of a Fourth Step is

talking only about three or four very specific sins that the man had fallen

into.



I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that the AA practice of making multi-paged

fourth step inventories did not become common until the flood of Roman Catholics

began coming into the program in 1939 and 1940. St. Ignatius Loyola, very early

in his spiritual development, made a detailed general moral inventory of

himself. He didn't talk about that in his Spiritual Exercises, but every

Catholic who had been deeply trained in those (Sister Ignatia, Father Ed

Dowling, etc.) would have known that St. Ignatius had to do his general moral

inventory first, before he could start practicing a kind of daily prayer that

was more like the AA tenth and eleventh steps.


0 -1 0 0
8092 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group 1/4/2012 6:17:00 PM


John Barton (jax760@yahoo.com)> (jax760 at yahoo.com) has listed three important

books that we can go to if we want to find good lists of "the tenets of the

Oxford Group." If we look at the chapter headings of these three books, I think

we can put together in our own minds a good rough list of some of the major

emphases of the Oxford Group's teaching:



1. confession of our sins

2. life-changing (conversion = accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior,

then using his power to stop sinning and erase my character defects)

3. total surrender to God and Christ

4. restitution (make peace with your brother)

5. quiet time (silent meditation)

6. guidance (discovering God's plan for my life)

7. gaining strength from the power of the Holy Spirit working in meetings of the

fellowship.

8. the Four Absolutes as the four primary virtues of the Christian life.**



Soul Surgery, by Howard Walter -- gives us our list of the five C's:

1. Confidence

2. Confession

3. Conviction

4. Conversion

5. Conservation [Continuance]



C. Irving Benson, The Eight Points of the Oxford Group: An Exposition for

Christians and Pagans (Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press, 1937).

1. God Has a Plan for Every Life

2. Confession is Good for the Soul

3. If Thy Brother Hath Aught Against Thee--

4. The Four Absolutes

5. Be Still and Know

6. Don't Be an Ass!

7. Life Changers All

8. Lo, Here is Fellowship!



What is the Oxford Group? by A Layman With a Notebook

I. The Oxford Group

II. Sin

III. Sharing for Confession and Witness

IV. Surrender

V. Restitution

VI. Guidance

VII. The Four Absolutes

VIII. The World

IX. You



__________________________________________

**That is, using Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love, and

Absolute (Sexual) Purity to replace the traditional list of Christian moral

virtues and moral vices, which went back centuries and centuries to the early

fourth century desert monks.



(In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached

against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian

activity, transsexualism and so on.)



THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIRTUES: justice (fairness towards all), temperance

(keeping our emotions under control and resisting the temptation to overindulge

in the sins of the flesh), fortitude (courage), prudence (thinking sensibly

before acting), faith, hope, and love.



THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VICES: pride, envy (or jealousy), anger, greed, lust,

sloth, gluttony.


0 -1 0 0
8093 bill@athenararebooks.com bill@a... 50%... then 25%... ?? 50%... then 25%... ?? 1/5/2012 12:14:00 PM


Yesterday at the GSO Archive, I came across the following letter that Bill

Wilson wrote in 1959 commenting on the 50%/25% recovery success rate noted in

the Foreword to the second edition of the Big Book - which he had written and

published four years earlier.



I know there have been several posts on this topic here in the past and I

thought some of Wilson's clarification(such as they are) might be helpful in

understanding what he really meant by those statistics.



I have transcribed the letter in its entirety (deleting only the personal

information on the recipient) and offer it here without further comment.



Old Bill





August 12, 1958



Dear Howard,



Thank deeply for your highly interesting letter of July 29th. I was thrilled by

your account of the Old Timers meeting with the vast sobriety record that it

portended. And also your observations on our 50%-25%-25% claim.



I think you have something when you say that perhaps we give false hope to the

newcomer by those figures. Actually, those figures have never been intended to

apply to all drunks who come within range of A.A. and attend a meeting or so.

They apply to those who really come in and take the treatment over a

considerable period of time. On that narrow classification, I think the figures

will stand up. In Philadelphia, for example, they kept records for a very long

time, accurate ones. Not too long ago they case up figures on old timers which

seemed to prove our claimed percentages. When the new edition of the A.A. book

came out, the same thing happened. The story-tellers had better than the claimed

percentage. So I think it ought to be emphasized with each newcomer that his

chances are just as the figures say, provided he will jump into A.A. and is

willing and capable of working at it.



There is another angle, too. As you say, an awful lot of these people get

hospitalized, attend a few meetings and then disappear. What becomes of them?



Probably you've heard me tell the story about a group of 75 of these people that

Lois and I once picked out of old address books from the very early days. Over

the years, we located more than 60 of them. The 60 had returned to A.A. and most

of them had made the grade. Some had been drunk 3, 5, 7, and 10 years. Finally,

they were driven back on the do-or-die basis and really got the pitch. So our

over-all claims are not excessive in my judgment.



At the office, they continue to get wonderful reports of the change in feeling

in your area about the Third Legacy, General Headquarters, and even about me! It

is one of the most comforting and gratifying happenings that I can remember in

my long A.A. live. Again, Howard, many thanks to you and to all those who have

made this possible.



Devotedly,



Bill


0 -1 0 0
8094 ricktompkins ricktompkins Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group 1/4/2012 9:37:00 PM


What an order! "Can I go through with it?"



That statement in How It Works, turned into a question, always brings me to

search for the substance of AA's serendipity of principles.



Thanks for the great summary post of OG tenets, that collectively may have

been very tough for many OGs to follow.



However, following the search for the roots of AA, I find synchronicity in

our Fellowship's blend of a suggested 'design for living.'



(note that serendipity and synchronicity are not song titles.)







Not forgetting the OG, other clergy recognize AA as a phenomena, too.



The book "Soul of Sponsorship" examines our 12 Steps as an identical

exercise found through the Jesuits' self-examination in the spirit of their

Saint Ignace.







I can't help but feel that our serendipity was a healthy broth stirred by

the hand of the Almighty.



Rick, Illinois







From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut

Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 5:18 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers group

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The early informal AA six steps and the

Oxford Group











John Barton (jax760@yahoo.com) > (jax760 at

yahoo.com) has listed three important

books that we can go to if we want to find good lists of "the tenets of the

Oxford Group." If we look at the chapter headings of these three books, I

think

we can put together in our own minds a good rough list of some of the major

emphases of the Oxford Group's teaching:



1. confession of our sins

2. life-changing (conversion = accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior,

then using his power to stop sinning and erase my character defects)

3. total surrender to God and Christ

4. restitution (make peace with your brother)

5. quiet time (silent meditation)

6. guidance (discovering God's plan for my life)

7. gaining strength from the power of the Holy Spirit working in meetings of

the

fellowship.

8. the Four Absolutes as the four primary virtues of the Christian life.**



Soul Surgery, by Howard Walter -- gives us our list of the five C's:

1. Confidence

2. Confession

3. Conviction

4. Conversion

5. Conservation [Continuance]



C. Irving Benson, The Eight Points of the Oxford Group: An Exposition for

Christians and Pagans (Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press, 1937).

1. God Has a Plan for Every Life

2. Confession is Good for the Soul

3. If Thy Brother Hath Aught Against Thee--

4. The Four Absolutes

5. Be Still and Know

6. Don't Be an Ass!

7. Life Changers All

8. Lo, Here is Fellowship!



What is the Oxford Group? by A Layman With a Notebook

I. The Oxford Group

II. Sin

III. Sharing for Confession and Witness

IV. Surrender

V. Restitution

VI. Guidance

VII. The Four Absolutes

VIII. The World

IX. You



__________________________________________

**That is, using Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love,

and

Absolute (Sexual) Purity to replace the traditional list of Christian moral

virtues and moral vices, which went back centuries and centuries to the

early

fourth century desert monks.



(In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually

preached against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay

and lesbian activity, transsexualism and so on.)



THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIRTUES: justice (fairness towards all),

temperance

(keeping our emotions under control and resisting the temptation to

overindulge

in the sins of the flesh), fortitude (courage), prudence (thinking sensibly

before acting), faith, hope, and love.



THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VICES: pride, envy (or jealousy), anger, greed,

lust,

sloth, gluttony.

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
8095 Ben Hammond Ben Hammond Re: Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure 1/1/2012 8:16:00 PM


Howdy All and Happy New Year from Tulsa ... Ditto on reading Kitchen's Book "I

Was A Pagan" ... His insight on finding a Spiritual Life was helpful to me and

explains the Power of Oxford at the time ... Kitchen bio is also interesting.

Thanks for all the great posts. God Bless You .... Old Ben



- - - -



On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Paul spectrumptg@yahoo.com> wrote:



> http://www.archive.org/details/godismyadventure032951mbp

>

> by ROM LANDAU

>

> Contains an early chapter on Buchmanism:

> "IV. The Man whose God is a Millionaire

> DR. FRANK BUCHMAN 141"

>



- - - -



Two of the major works on the Oxford Group:



Victor Constant Kitchen. I Was a Pagan (1934).



Arthur James Russell, For Sinners Only (1932).



- - - -



Biography of Victor Kitchen:



Glenn F. Chesnut, Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A.

(2006).

http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html


0 -1 0 0
8096 Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 12/12/2011 6:12:00 PM


That study I believe is one prepared at the Yale Institute for Alcoholic Studies

headed by Doctor Jellinek and others in the last forty's and early fifty's.



Searcy Whaley studied in their summer school program, and much of his writing

was in reference to that period.



(This was the same summer that Bill Swegan was also a student there, see

Swegan's book http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html )



Searcy was friends with Bill Wilson. As a matter of fact when Bill wanted to

introduce the 12 traditions, he asked for Searcy's help, to which Searcy

replied, you might need those rules and regulations in New York, but we don't

need them here in Texas. Searcy later came to see the value of the traditions

and became a great supporter.



- - - -



Tom (tomvlll@yahoo.com)> wrote:



>In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with

non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite

>young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors

>made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled

>problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find

>how different we were from one another; they sought to

>find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics

>had in common. They finally came up with a

>conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time.

>These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of

>the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally

>sensitive, and grandiose."

>

>Does anybody know anything about this study?


0 -1 0 0
8097 Gary Neidhardt Gary Neidhardt Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 12/28/2011 10:28:00 AM


In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, there are these

two statements:

 

2) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, announced in

1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A.  As a result, he brought

more people into A.A. than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later." 

p. 181

 

4) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and irreversible

effect on the numbers and membership composition of A.A. than did its founders,

Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186

 

Are these assertions accurate?

 

Gary Neidhardt

Lilburn, Georgia


0 -1 0 0
8098 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts. What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts. 12/28/2011 2:16:00 PM


As the average child says my momma told me, and the average AA adult says my

sponsor told me. Bill W can justify himself by saying DR Bob and I decided

this,etc. I do not think these statements conflicts with G.C.'s comment.



- - - -



In a message dated 12/28/2011 2:01:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

grandpopmark@yahoo.com writes:



While reading the Twelve Concepts again, we came across an interesting

statement. In the essay on Concept 1, first page third paragraph, reads, in

part, "Ten years earlier - in 1938 - helped by dedicated friends, Dr. Bob and I

had commenced work upon a world service structure."



Just what was Dr. Bob's contribution to the work on our world service

structure? Did he just read and comment upon Bill's work? Did he write portions

of the work now known as our Twelve Concepts?



Mark E., Lebanon, Ohio



- - - -



FROM THE MODERATOR G.C.



Let's think carefully about the relevant dates before we start commenting on

this:



Dr. Bob died on November 16, 1950

Bill W. died on January 24, 1971



April 1962:

See http://silkworth.net/aa/12concepts.html

Twelve Concepts for World Service (Short Form) ... adopted by the 12th annual

General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous on April 26, 1962


0 -1 0 0
8099 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst RE: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 1/7/2012 3:10:00 PM


I do not see how these "assertions" could be verified either way



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst





-----Original Message-----

From: Gary Neidhardt

Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011

Subject: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography



In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, there are these

two statements:

 

1) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, announced in

1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A.  As a result, he brought

more people into A.A. than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later." 

p. 181

 

2) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and irreversible

effect on the numbers and membership composition of A.A. than did its founders,

Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186

 

Are these assertions accurate?

 

Gary Neidhardt

Lilburn, Georgia


0 -1 0 0
8100 Pamela B. Tiger Pamela B. Tiger Re: Kitchen's Oxford Group book -- I Was a Pagan Kitchen's Oxford Group book -- I Was a Pagan 1/7/2012 5:31:00 PM


In AAHistoryLovers Message No. 8095

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8095

Ben Hammond (mlb9292@gmail.com)> says



>>Ditto on reading Kitchen's Book "I Was A Pagan" ... His insight on finding a

Spiritual Life was helpful to me and explains the Power of Oxford at the time

... <<



- - - -



What book is this? Can one still get it? Library, perhaps? Where can I get an

online glimpse of this?



~from a modern Pagan~

pamela :)



- - - -



FROM THE MODERATOR: Victor Kitchen's book is VERY pricey if you start looking

for copies at rare book dealers, but you can read it online at two different AA

websites:



http://stepstudy.org/downloads-2/



http://silkworth.net/iwasapagan/i-was-a-pagan.pdf


0 -1 0 0
8101 joe joe Re: What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts? What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts? 12/29/2011 7:21:00 PM


A post at the following link may help explain what he may have meant. Of course,

it is written by the co-founder who wrote the most on the matter -- Bill W. --

and would carry much of his perspective. But it seems from a quick read, that he

did discuss matters of world service with Dr. Bob at the time.



http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/billw/foundation.htm



I take it to mean the world service structure or at the time the Alcoholic

Foundation with its board members. The Foundation was established while Dr. Bob

was alive. The first General Service Conference was supposed to (among other

things) visit the offices and go through the books and check up on the trustees.



Roger W.



_____________________________________________



Here are some excerpts from that document, to illustrate its relevance, but the

whole work should be read by anyone who is interested in the question:



http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/billw/foundation.htm



BILL W. WRITES AN INTRODUCTION:



"To the Trustees of the Alcoholic Fundation



Bedford Hills, New York

April 8, 1947



Dear Friends;



Following our past year of deliberation on questions touching the A.A.

Headquarters policy and structure, I have ventured to prepare the enclosed

material under the title: The Alcoholic Foundation of Yesterday, Today and

Tomorrow ....



Meanwhile it seems right to Dr. Bob and me that this material be placed before

all the Trustees pending the study and report of the Reorganization Committee.



Appreciatively yours,

William G. Wilson"



AND THEN BILL WILSON GIVES A LONG HISTORY OF THE WAY HE AND DR. BOB DEVELOPED

PLANS FOR FORMING AN A.A. ORGANIZATION AND SPREADING THE MESSAGE ALL OVER THE

U.S. AND CANADA:



"... Much discussion in a little meeting called by Dr. Bob and me at Akron in

the fall of 1937 developed a plan [for spreading AA beyond Akron, New York City,

and Cleveland]. This plan later proved to be approximately one-third right and

about two—thirds wrong —— familiar process of trial and error ...."


0 -1 0 0
8102 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous 1/3/2012 12:55:00 PM


un, 1/1/12, hdmozart (email@LaurenceHolbrook.com)> wrote:



From: hdmozart (email@LaurenceHolbrook.com)>

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Date: Sunday, January 1, 2012, 3:27 AM









I just discovered that p. 40 of the current pamphlet (P-17), "A.A.

Tradition - How It Developed - by Bill W" includes the 1955 Grapevine article,

"Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous" also by Bill W.



Hope this is helpful



Larry Holbrook

(410) 802-3099


0 -1 0 0
8103 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox RE: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 1/7/2012 7:27:00 PM


I see neither assertion is footnoted.



Perhaps the authors could be asked their references. I will drop

Sally an email.



Tommy H in Danville



At 15:10 1/7/2012, Chuck Parkhurst wrote:



>I do not see how these "assertions" could be verified either way

>

>In Service With Gratitude,

>

>Chuck Parkhurst

>

>

>-----Original Message-----

>From: Gary Neidhardt

>Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011

>Subject: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography

>

>In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown,

>there are these two statements:

>

>1) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians,

>announced in 1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A. As

>a result, he brought more people into A.A. than did the Saturday

>Evening Post article a year later." p. 181

>

>2) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and

>irreversible effect on the numbers and membership composition of

>A.A. than did its founders, Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186

>

>Are these assertions accurate?

>

>Gary Neidhardt

>Lilburn, Georgia


0 -1 0 0
8104 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman RE: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 1/7/2012 7:38:00 PM


I agree with Chuck--





--- On Sat, 1/7/12, Chuck Parkhurst (ineedpage63@cox.net)> wrote:



I do not see how these "assertions" could be verified either way



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst


0 -1 0 0
8105 Compton Labauve Compton Labauve Re: Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? 1/4/2012 5:30:00 PM


Remington Arms Co. produced their model 25 rifle from 1923 until it was

discontinued in 1936. One of the calibers that the model 25 was chambered for

was the .25-20 WCF (Winchester Center Fire).



The .25-20 WCF cartridge was developed by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company

in 1895. The popular Winchester model 1892 was offered in caliber .25-20 WCF

from 1895 until it was discontinued in 1938.



If you could supply me with the exact serial number of Bill's rifle, I would be

able to tell you the exact date of manufacture.



CJ


0 -1 0 0
8106 Charlie C Charlie C Re: Dr. Bob's tattoo Dr. Bob's tattoo 1/5/2012 3:58:00 PM


I just happened to run across this original painting of Bill & Dr. Bob, and

notice that the artist appears to have included something of Bob's tattoo on his

one forearm. It's a minor thing, but it makes me wonder, are there any extant

photos of Bob that show any of his tattoo, I believe it was a quite extensive

one of a dragon was it not?



http://www.etsy.com/listing/77926833/original-painting-of-bill-wilson-and-dr

 

Charlie Cowling

Clarkson, New York



_____________________________________________



FROM THE MODERATOR: see Message 7512 from Bill Lash

barefootbill@optonline.net> (barefootbill at optonline.net)



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7512



Dr. Bob had two tattoos. He had a big 32-point compass on one of his arms, along

with a large dragon. - Children of the Healer.



**********



We invited Bob and his wife to go down to the beach with us, and when Bob

appeared in his bathing suit, we saw he was gloriously tattooed on his chest and

both arms, with rather intriguing figures and snakes and so forth. My wife asked

him what condition he was in when he got that last tattoo on his arm. And he

said, "It was a blazer." - Dr. Bob & the Good Oldtimers page 298.



**********



A tattoo he wore the rest of his life was probably from those days at

Dartmouth: a dragon and a compass tattoo. The dragon wound around his left arm

from the shoulder to the wrist. It was blue with red fire. His son thinks "he

had to have been drunk to have it put there, and you didn't do something that

complicated in a day. When I asked him how he got it, he said, 'Boy, that was a

dandy!' And it must have been, too."



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill


0 -1 0 0
8107 Laurence Holbrook Laurence Holbrook Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/5/2012 2:40:00 AM


Apparently Jim B wasn't the only one that believed the Foundation paid off its

shareholders and loans (Towns and the Rockefeller guests) - Bill 'claimed'

repayment in a May, 1955 article in the Grapevine as well as Alcoholics

Anonymous Comes of Age -



Here are the numbers extracted from the Grapevine article -

$4,500 Works Publishing stock (repaid from Chipman loan)

$2,500 Loan from Charles B. Towns (repaid from Chipman loan)

$1,000 Rockefeller donation, also yearly? ($5,000 repaid from book proceeds)

$2,000/year for 5 years(?) Rockefeller guests ($10,000 repaid from book

proceeds)

$8,000 A. Leroy Chipman used to pay off Towns Loan and Works Publishing stock

(the book was now ours - repaid from book proceeds)

Two years later book proceeds paid off Rockefeller, Rockefeller guests and

Chipman loan -

Rockefeller & most of Rockefeller guests gave half their repaid loans to the

foundation -



========================

May, 1955 Grapevine article by Bill W

[Excerpts]

-------------

Vol. 11 No. 12

How A.A.'S World Service Grew

Part I



http://da.aagrapevine.org/article.php?id=93238

http://da.aagrapevine.org/article.php?id=93238&tb=3cT1kYS9icm93c2VzZWFyY2hy

ZXN1bHQucGhwJnE9cm9ja2VmZWxsZXIrcGFpZA>

&tb=3cT1kYS9icm93c2VzZWFyY2hyZXN1bHQucGhwJnE9cm9ja2VmZWxsZXIrcGFpZA==

[Subscription required]

-----

This was the sales argument we needed. With a plug like this, the proposed

volume would sell by carloads. How could we miss? The New York alcoholics

and their friends promptly changed their minds about Works Publishing stock.

They began to buy it, mostly on installments. Our biggest subscriber put in

$300. In the end we scraped up forty-nine contributors. They came up with

about $4500 over the next nine months. We also got a loan of $2500 from

Charles B. Towns, proprietor of the hospital where I had often gone. This

kept friend Hank, myself and a secretary named Ruth going until the job was

finished.

-----

Next day, Mr. Rockefeller wrote to all those who had attended and even to

those who had not. Again he reiterated his complete confidence and high

interest. Once more he insisted that little or no money was needed. Then at

the very end of his letter, he casually remarked that he was giving

Alcoholics Anonymous $1,000!



When the public read the press stories about Mr. Rockefeller's dinner, many

rushed to the bookstores to buy the book Alcoholics Anonymous. The

Foundation Trustees solicited the dinner guests for contributions. Knowing

the size of Mr. Rockefeller's gift, they acted accordingly. About $3,000

came in, a donation which, as things turned out, we solicited and received

each year for just four years more.

-----

Meanwhile, some of the stockholders in the book company, Works-Publishing,

began to get restive. All the book profits, they complained, were going for

AA work in the office. When, if ever, were they going to get their money

back? We had to find a way, too, of paying Mr. Towns his-$2500. We also saw

that the book, Alcoholics Anonymous should now become the property of AA as

a whole. At the moment, it was owned one-third by the forty-nine

subscribers, one-third by my friend Hank and the remainder by me

-----

The help we needed turned up in the person of Mr. A. LeRoy Chipman. Also a

friend and associate of Mr. John D. Rockefeller, he had recently been made a

Trustee of the Foundation. He persuaded Mr. Rockefeller, two of his sons and

some of the dinner guests to loan the Foundation $8000. This promptly paid

off Mr. Charles D. Towns, settled some incidental debts and fully reimbursed

the forty-nine original subscribers at par. They then turned their shares in

to the Foundation. Two years later, the book Alcoholics Anonymous had done

so well that we were able to pay off this whole loan. Impressed with this

considerable show of financial responsibility, Mr. Rockefeller, his sons and

some of the 1940 dinner guests gave halt the money they'd lent us back to

the Foundation.

-----

[End of excerpt]

========================

Similar information from

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age

[Excerpts]

---------------



pp:13 Four years later, Dr. Silkworth had helped to convert Mr. Charles B.

Towns, the hospital's owner, into a great A.A. enthusiast and had encouraged

him to loan $2,500 to start preparation of the book Alco-holics Anonymous, a

sum, by the way, which was later increased to

14 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE

over $4,000.



pp15: Early in the spring of 1938 our new friends helped us to organize the

Alcoholic Foundation, and Mr. A. LeRoy Chipman tirelessly served for many

years as its treasurer. In 1940 it seemed desirable for the Foundation to

take over Works Publishing, Inc., the little com-pany we had formed to

handle the book, and two years later Mr. Chipman did most of the work in

raising the $8,000 which was needed to pay off the shareholders and Mr.

Charles B. Towns in full, thus making the Foundation the sole owner of the

A.A. book and putting it in trust for our society for all time.



pp150: At this juncture, Dick Richardson described the desperate financial

plight of Dr. Bob and myself. On hearing of this, Mr. Rockefeller

THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 151

said, "I will place S5,000 for their use in the treasury of the Riverside

Church. You may draw on this as you like. This will give these men some

temporary assistance. But this fellowship should soon become

self-supporting. If you and the others do not happen to agree, if you really

think that the movement needs money, of course you can help them to raise

it. But please don't ever ask me for any more."

This was very great news for Alcoholics Anonymous, but at the time it seemed

like bad news. It was in fact a shattering blow to our hopes. Nevertheless

Dr. Bob and I were grateful to get off the hook, even for a little while.

The small mortgage on Dr. Bob's place was paid off, and each of us began to

receive thirty dollars a week for as long as the money might last.

Otherwise, we stood just where we had been all along.



pp159: Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers,

prodding them for their installments. In addition to this dribble of money,

we were able to secure $2,500 from Mr. Charles B. Towns. Most of these funds

had to be devoted to office expenses and groceries for Henry, Ruth, Lois,

and myself, and we kept going on this basis until April, 1939, the

publication date of the book Alcoholics Anonymous.



pp174: The card would exhort them to listen to the Heatter broadcast and buy

the book Alcoholics Anonymous, "a sure cure for alcoholism." Here was

another wonderful idea; all we needed was money. Among our new prospects a

couple of the more prosperous variety had just turned up. Henry went after

them, brandishing his pad of Works Publishing stock certificates. They did

not want any stock, but they would take promissory notes signed by the

defunct publishing company and personally endorsed by Henry and me. Quite

unbelievably, Henry extracted $500 from them.



pp177: One of our New York A.A.'s, Bert T., had a fashionable tailoring shop

on Fifth Avenue which he had inherited from his father. But Bert's drinking

had pretty nearly demolished the business and it was still going downhill. I

phoned Bert and told him what we needed. When I said that Liberty would

surely print a piece in September, he said, "Are you really sure this time?

After all, you and Henry were awfully sure about the Reader's Digest piece.

But come on down. Maybe I can do something."

Bert's clothing clients included many wealthy customers. Scanning the list,

he chose one whom we shall call Mr. G.

Bert said, "Now here's a man who knows all about us. He is ex-tremely

interested in the alcohol problem, though I must admit he is on the bone-dry

side of the argument." When I expressed doubt about accepting help from a

dry crusader, Bert wryly remarked, "Listen, Bill, this is no time to

quibble. We have got to get a thousand dollars from anybody who will give it

to us." Bert went to the phone and asked for long distance. At first, he

boldly asked Mr. G. for a con-tribution. Mr. G. was uncertain. Then Bert

told his customer about Works Publishing, which at the moment had a large

inventory of

178 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE

books but little cash. The Liberty piece, however, would bring in plenty of

orders. Would Mr. G. care to buy some stock? Mr. G. was still more dubious.

Then Bert proposed that Mr. G. make Works Pub-lishing a loan. After all, the

company had a large inventory of valu-able books. Upon learning the true

state of Works Publishing, Mr. G. emphatically declined. Bert tried once

more. "Mr. G.," Bert said, "would you take the promissory note of Works

Publishing for a thousand dollars if I endorsed it? As you know, I have a

fine business right here on Fifth Avenue."

"Most certainly," said Mr. G., "I will take such a note if you en-dorse it.

Send it right down and I'll be delighted to send you the money." This was a

real godsend, which probably saved the book company, for it kept us going

until the late fall of 1939. Bert had hocked his own business, virtually

bankrupt by then, to save the book Alcoholics Anonymous. This was a friend

indeed.



pp185: Mr. Rockefeller's letter, which was addressed to all who came to the

dinner as well as to those who did not, reiterated his high confidence in

Alcoholics Anonymous, the satisfaction he had in knowing that many of his

friends had witnessed the start of a movement of such great promise, and his

deep conviction that our society ought to be self-supporting. He followed

this with a statement to the effect that a little temporary help might be

needed; he, therefore, was giving Alcoholics Anony-mous $1,000. In all

probability this was a mild hint that the other diners might contribute

modestly if they so wished.



pp186: The Board of Trustees conceived the idea of soliciting the dinner

guests for contributions. Since Mr. Rockefeller had made a token gift of

$1,000, it was supposed that the solicitation would not have any large money

result. But it certainly might help. Mr. Rockefeller consented, and an

appeal was directed to the dinner list. As we expected, no contribution was

large, but the donations were fairly numerous. The smallest check was for

$10 and the highest was for $300 (from a gen-tleman who had an alcoholic

brother). The total of these gifts amounted to about $2,000 and this, plus

Mr. Rockefeller's gift of $1,000, put our hitherto empty Foundation in funds

for the first time.

Money-wise, Dr. Bob and I were still in a rather bad way. We were therefore

allotted $3o a week, and enough was on hand to keep

THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 187

this up for a year. Thereafter the dinner guests were solicited an-nually

and the proceeds were always divided in the same way. Four years later we

were able to write Mr. Rockefeller and his friends of the Union Club dinner

that we needed no more funds. By then royalties from the book were giving

Dr. Bob and me the help we needed, and the A.A. groups had begun to pick up

the load of sup-porting the Headquarters office. At that point the A.A.

Tradition of "no outside contributions" went into full force and effect. Mr.

Rocke-feller and his friends had given us something more valuable than

money. They had put A.A. on the map.



pp187: Almost every week we happily added a new pin to our wall map to mark

another group in for-mation.

The sales of the A.A. book steadily increased, and we could now meet the

cost of rent, postage, and supplies, and best of all we could pay Ruth a

fair salary. Lois and I were living rent-free at the Old Twenty-Fourth

Street Club, and we were able to get along nicely on the proceeds of the

Rockefeller dinner and gifts still being made to the "Lois W. Home

Replacement Fund" in the Foundation. Every-body began to breathe easier.

The affairs of Works Publishing, however, were still in pretty sketchy

shape. It had never been incorporated, and the only evidence of its

existence were the stock certificates that Henry and I had manu-factured,

the books in the warehouse, and the canceled checks that gave a rough idea

of how the money had been spent. Four hundred

188 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE

shares of stock, to be equally divided between Henry and me, had never been

issued and could not be issued, under our original agree-ment, until the

cash subscribers had received all their money back.

When they heard that the book was making money, some of the cash

subscribers, including even Charlie Towns, began to get rest-less. They

wanted to know why all of the profits of the book were being spent to

finance a Headquarters for A.A. We replied that there was not any other way;

would they like to see all those pleas for help thrown in the wastebasket?

But a few still insisted on getting their money back, and something had to

be done.

Therefore Ruth and I set about making Works Publishing's first re-port to

its stockholders. We outlined the history of the book project and painted a

rosy picture for the future. From the mass of check stubs, old bills, and

receipts we made an approximate accounting. As I remember, the publishing

company had shown a profit of about $3,000, which had all been spent on A.A.

work at the office.

Again we turned to our trusted pad of blank stock certificates. On a number

of these we wrote: "Works Publishing, Inc., Preferred Stock, par value

$100."

Equipped with these certificates, I went off to Washington. The new A.A.

group there included some well-to-do members: Bill E., Hardin C., and Bill

A. They cheerfully bought these strange and irregular stock certificates in

the amount of about $3,000. Thus we satisfied a few of the grumbling

stockholders and gratefully handed to Mr. Charles Towns all of the money

which he had advanced to make the book project possible. He was delighted

and so were we.

In this period, one of our nonalcoholic friends performed an out-standing

service for us. This was accountant West, of West, Flint & Co., a lifelong

associate of Dick Richardson. He saw that Works Publishing was properly

incorporated and he personally audited its affairs and those of the

Foundation from our beginnings in 1938. Ruth had had no time to keep books,

and I did not know how. So a thorough CPA audit of the book company proved

to be a real job. The tireless Mr. West spent days and days at it, without

pay. When this difficult

THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS I89

job of unscrambling our affairs was completed, we felt we could ask no more

of Mr. West. From that point on, Wilbur S., a CPA as well as an early A.A.,

took over the job of keeping our records in shape. He did this for a long

time gratis, and even today I doubt if we pay him enough.

By 1940 we had begun to see that the A.A. book should belong to our society

itself. Its shares should not be forever scattered among forty-nine

subscribers, Ruth Hock, Henry, and me. If the Foundation could acquire these

outstanding shares, the book could be placed in trust for A.A. as a whole.

The proceeds of the book would become tax-free if the cash shareholders were

paid off, and they could no longer kick about the book's income being used

to run the A.A. office.

Trustee A. LeRoy Chipman conceived the idea of borrowing enough money from

Mr. Rockefeller, two of his sons, and the dinner guests to clear away

certain debts and to buy all Works Publishing's shares (except Henry's and

mine) from the cash subscribers at par. Every one of the cash subscribers

gladly consented to this; they were happy to get out even. Mr. Chipman

thereupon raised a total of $8,000 dollars, to be repaid to Mr. Rockefeller

and the others out of book profits at a later date. The subscribers turned

in their shares, received their money, and placed our Foundation in

possession of a one-third interest in Works Publishing. A few of the

subscribers, both alcoholic and nonalcoholic, were extra generous. Some sent

all, and some half, of the money they had received back to the Founda-tion

as gifts.

That left two-thirds interest in Works Publishing still coming to Henry and

me. Seeing the necessity of the situation, I agreed to turn my 200 shares

over to the Foundation. But poor Henry, still drinking, was not easily

convinced. For a long time he resisted all our pleas. One day, completely

broke and very shaky, he turned up at the Vesey Street office. He pointed

out that most of our office furniture still be-longed to him, particularly

the huge desk and the overstuffed chair. This gave us an idea. Supposing, we

said, that the Foundation would

190 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE

buy his furniture for, say, $200, would he then turn his Works Pub-lishing

stock over to the Trustees?

Henry finally consented and signed the necessary paper promising to do this.

As a matter of fact we had once before allowed Henry money on his furniture

in order to help him out. But the Trustees gravely produced still another

$200; Henry turned in his stock; I turned in mine; and that is how the

society of Alcoholics Anonymous, through its Trustees, came to own the Big

Book.

------------------------

[End of excerpts]

========================



I am a history lover, not a historian so my opinion doesn't count much, but it

seems like these loans had to be repaid or A.A. wouldn't have 'owned' the Big

Book -



I sincerely hope this is helpful information -



Larry Holbrook

Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com

(410) 802-3099



_____



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of John French

Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:07 AM

To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying

Rockefeller back



I would love to verify the claim that John D. Rockefeller, Jr.

once said that of all the donations he had given to charity, AA was the only one

that paid him back in full.



John French


0 -1 0 0
8109 John Barton John Barton Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden 1/1/2012 11:55:00 PM


If my memory serves me correctly Joe Worden Jr. was the "wet brain" who would

mumble "Anonymous Alcoholics" at the NY meetings in late 38, early 39. The

legendary story that Bill use to tell was was that from here came the name

Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course we know the name was in use by June of 38,

perhaps as early as April of 38, as the main source document (letter from Bill

to Bob in 38) is undated. Curious to know when he would have done this editing

if he indeed had a wet brain late in 38/39. 

 

Any more info.... Jared or Bill L.?


0 -1 0 0
8110 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden 1/2/2012 1:27:00 AM


John, et al,



Here are a few dates from AA and Al-Anon literature:



March/April 1938: The first writing of Bill's Story took place. (Pass it On --

p. 193) The editing was very possibly done shortly thereafter because the

writing was to be used in the money raising campaign in the summer of 1938.

(Pass It On -- p. 192).



June 15, 1938: Lois Wilson remembers the first use of the term Alcoholics

Anonymous. (Lois Remembers -- p. 197)



July 15, 1938: Bill Wilson used the term Alcoholics Anonymous in a letter.

(Pass It On -- (p. 202)



Bob S.





Bob Stonebraker

212 SW 18th Street

Richmond, IN 47374

(765) 935-0130

Our 4D website: www.4dgroups.org







From: John Barton jax760@yahoo.com

Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012

Subject: Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden



If my memory serves me correctly Joe Worden Jr. was the "wet brain" who would

mumble "Anonymous Alcoholics" at the NY meetings in late 38, early 39. The

legendary story that Bill use to tell was was that from here came the name

Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course we know the name was in use by June of 38,

perhaps as early as April of 38, as the main source document (letter from Bill

to Bob in 38) is undated. Curious to know when he would have done this editing

if he indeed had a wet brain late in 38/39.



Any more info.... Jared or Bill L.?


0 -1 0 0
8111 James Bliss James Bliss Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 12/31/2011 12:29:00 PM


It is nice to provide the files, but how can they be obtained without

becoming a member of that Yahoo group?



On 12/30/2011 12:21 PM, Robert Stonebraker wrote:

>

> To view the entire first two drafts of Bill's Story, please open the

> site below. A recent post included only the first pages of these

> interesting pre-manuscript drafts.

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/

>

> Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts

>

> The first draft is many pages, yet not complete, however the second

> draft is complete. It was edited by the editor of NY Magazine, Joe Worth.

>

> This is on my Yahoo website, so it may be necessary to sign in.

>

> Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
8112 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 12/31/2011 3:49:00 PM


HISTORICAL ERRORS IN JIMMY BURWELL'S TALK:



Just because a speaker says it from the podium doesn't make it true. Jim's

recollection of early AA history isn't the best source to rely on. If you listen

to whole tape it is full of errors.



Here are some of the flaws I found and he hadn't even gotten to the Rockefeller

dinner:



Bill was drinking pineapple juice and gin not orange juice and gin when Ebby

visited.



Bill didn't have his spiritual experience at the exact same time Dr Silkworth

was talking to Lois.



Bill stayed at the Mayflower Hotel in Akron not the Portage Hotel.



Bill met Dr Bob at the Seiberling gate house not at Dr Bob's home when he

brought home a potted plant.



Bill and Bob are said to have talked until midnight not till 7 in the morning.



Dr Bob's last drink was not on the train trip back from the AMA convention. Bill

gave it to him a few days after he got back and sobered up again.



No more than 3 sober in 1935. Really? Amos report shows at least 6 got in 1935.



Bill left Akron and was back in New York by August 1935, he didn't come back in

December 1935.



Did Bill really have 75 members come through his house and none stayed sober in

1936-37? Most lists show at least 15 or 16 were sober during those years.



Idea for a book or pamphlet was in November 1937 not June of 1938.



First two chapters of our book shown to Harper's were Bill's story and There Is

A Solution, not Bill and Dr Bob's stories.



Harper's offers Bill $1,500 not $3,000 for the book deal.



September 1938 set up Works Publishing and selling stock not June 1938.



The Common Sense of Drinking published in April 1931 not 1930.



Bill began writing Big Book in March, April or May 1938 not July 1938.



I think you get the picture. It's not Jim's fault. It's just how he remembered

the story.



Charles from Wisconsin





>________________________________

>From: hdmozart (email@LaurenceHolbrook.com)>

>Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011

>Subject: Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back

>

>Jimmy Burwell (Speaking in Texas 4-17-1950)

>http://aa-meetings.com/audio/speakers/ind.php?id=89

>

>[53:23] Incidentally we are the only group that the Rockefellers have ever

worked with that paid off every cent that we ever borrowed from - we paid that

$3,600 back

>

>Hope this helps,

>Larry Holbrook

>Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com

>(410) 802-3099


0 -1 0 0
8113 rsmith77379 rsmith77379 Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/1/2012 10:45:00 AM


It would be nice if these drafts were more readily available without having to

sign up for another Group. Could they be posted somewhere else?







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Stonebraker"

wrote:

>

> To view the entire first two drafts of Bill's Story, please open the site

below. A recent post included only the first pages of these interesting

pre-manuscript drafts.

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/

>

> Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts


0 -1 0 0
8114 MichaelD MichaelD Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/7/2012 8:26:00 PM


Hello, Thank you for this group. I've seen this question asked in various

forms over the last ~2 years that I have been a member. I'm asking it again, in

this level of detail, because quite honestly I've been struck by the absence of

history in this area.



We write, we wrote, we make a list, we turn back to the list, We put them on

paper, we have written down a lot, we place them before us in black and white.



Where in our written history are documents or talks about what is required for

successful completion of "The Process"



Page 64: In dealing with Resentments we set them on Paper.



Page 64: We listed People, Places and Institutions.



Page 65: On our Grudge list we set opposite our Injuries.



Page: When we saw our faults we listed them, we placed them before us in black

and white.



Page 66: We turned back to the list for it held the key to the future.



Page 68: We reviewed our fears thoroughly, we put them on paper.



Page 68: Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this

all down on paper.



Page 70: If we have been thorough about our inventory, we have written down a

lot.



Page 70: We have listed and analyzed our resentments.



Page 75: When we decide who should hear our story, we waste no time. We have a

written inventory.



Page 76: We have a list of people we have harmed... We made it when we took

inventory.



There are many more examples, but for purposes of my question that's enough.



With all this written instruction in our early history, and seeing as we

serviced people by postal mail in the early days, are there no letters, no

documents, no correspondence that deal specifically with the clear cut

directions in our book? There are no letters asking for clarification? There are

no letters asking how to answer the questions of:



Where were we selfish?

Where were we dishonest?

Where were we self-seeking?

Where were we afraid?

Where have aroused jealously? Suspicion? Bitterness?

What should we have done instead?



Nobody wrote in to the NY office asking for help with these questions and

others? Bill, Bob, Clarence and others never corresponded specifically on these

questions? I find that startling, because these questions deal specifically with

How IT Works. Do we have documents on exactly how we communicated with people

about How It Works? Where are they?



We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone

actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's extremely puzzling.



If anyone could point to anything ... anything at all, from our early history

that is directly about people following the Clear-Cut directions, I would love

to see it. Thank you.


0 -1 0 0
8115 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker First two drafts of Bill's Story available via direct email First two drafts of Bill's Story available via direct email 1/7/2012 11:04:00 PM


R. S. wrote: It would be nice if these drafts were more readily available

without having to sign up for another Group. Could they be posted somewhere

else?



I would be happy to email the first two drafts of Bill's Story directly those

who request. . . . Also an example of Ruth Hock's typewriter font of the first

paragraph.



Email: rstonebraker212@comcast.net

(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)



Bob S.



PS -- Perhaps some more PC savvy member could put these three PDFs on a

universal type website.


0 -1 0 0
8116 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/7/2012 11:12:00 PM


Recent information has concluded that the second draft was written by Joe

Worden, and not Joe Worth. Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's daughter,

misremembered the last name during an interview in 1999, sixty years later.



Bob S.



PS ~~ Note message below.



==========================================



On 12/30/2011 12:21 PM, Robert Stonebraker wrote:

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/

>

> Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts

>

> The first draft is many pages, yet not complete, however the second

> draft is complete. It was edited by the editor of NY Magazine, Joe Worth.


0 -1 0 0
8117 Cindy Miller Cindy Miller Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 1/8/2012 12:34:00 AM


and the end of the Searcy quote was "cause we got LOVE"



(said to me by the man himself!)



-cm





On Dec 12, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. wrote:



> Searcy was friends with Bill Wilson. As a matter of fact when Bill

> wanted to introduce the 12 traditions, he asked for Searcy's help,

> to which Searcy replied, you might need those rules and regulations

> in New York, but we don't need them here in Texas.


0 -1 0 0
8118 Jim Robbins Jim Robbins Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 1/8/2012 1:31:00 AM


There is a reference to immaturity in Harry Tiebot's paper "The Ego Factors in

Surrender in Alcoholism"



"In the process of surrender which the alcoholic necessarily undergoes before

his alcoholism can be arrested, the part of the personality which must surrender

is the inflated Ego. This aspect of personality was identified as immature

traits carried over from infancy into adulthood, specifically, a feeling of

omnipotence, inability to tolerate frustration, and excessive drive, exhibited

in the need to do all things precipitously. The manner in which surrender

affects the Ego was discussed and illustrated briefly from clinical experience.

The object of therapy is to permanently replace the old Ego and its activity."



I have always heard that this was why Bill was so adamant about creation of the

GSC.



- - - -



From: Gerry Winkelman C. E. F.

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:12 PM Bills

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12



That study I believe is one prepared at the Yale Institute for Alcoholic Studies

headed by Doctor Jellinek and others in the last forty's and early fifty's ....



- - - -



Tom tomvlll@yahoo.com> wrote:



>In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with

non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite

>young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors

>made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled

>problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find

>how different we were from one another; they sought to

>find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics

>had in common. They finally came up with a

>conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time.

>These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of

>the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally

>sensitive, and grandiose."

>

>Does anybody know anything about this study?


0 -1 0 0
8119 corafinch corafinch Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 1/9/2012 12:20:00 PM


Does anyone know of any other psychiatrist who has postulated the existence of

an "ego" which is capable of being totally defeated and permanently replaced? To

put the question another way, who else has used the concept of Ego in that way?

Hobart Mowrer doesn't count,as his professional qualification was in cognitive

psychology.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Robbins" wrote:

>

> There is a reference to immaturity in Harry Tiebot's paper "The Ego Factors in

Surrender in Alcoholism"

>

> "In the process of surrender which the alcoholic necessarily undergoes before

his alcoholism can be arrested, the part of the personality which must surrender

is the inflated Ego. This aspect of personality was identified as immature

traits carried over from infancy into adulthood, specifically, a feeling of

omnipotence, inability to tolerate frustration, and excessive drive, exhibited

in the need to do all things precipitously. The manner in which surrender

affects the Ego was discussed and illustrated briefly from clinical experience.

The object of therapy is to permanently replace the old Ego and its activity."

>

> I have always heard that this was why Bill was so adamant about creation of

the GSC.

>

> - - - -

>

> From: Gerry Winkelman C. E. F.

> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:12 PM Bills

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12

>

> That study I believe is one prepared at the Yale Institute for Alcoholic

Studies headed by Doctor Jellinek and others in the last forty's and early

fifty's ....

>

> - - - -

>

> Tom wrote:

>

> >In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with

non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite

> >young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors

> >made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled

> >problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find

> >how different we were from one another; they sought to

> >find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics

> >had in common. They finally came up with a

> >conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time.

> >These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of

> >the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally

> >sensitive, and grandiose."

> >

> >Does anybody know anything about this study?

>


0 -1 0 0
8120 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/9/2012 4:52:00 AM


From Bill W's April 8, 1947 letter, I get a slightly different picture -

although the amounts seem to 'line-up' with the other reports, the comment here

was that several of the Chipman lenders would take only a part payment —— some

none at all.



http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/billw/foundation.htm



Frank A. suggested $30,000 - Mr. John . Rockefeller Jr.



[Excerpts]



"gave us a sum which turned out to be, however, about one-sixth of the amount

Frank had suggested. "



"Amazingly enough, we did sell that stock, $4,500 worth, to alcoholics in New

York, New Jersey, and to their friends."



"As for the shares of the Works Publishing, the 49 cash subscribers were to have

one third, my friend Hank one third, and I one third. We also obtained a loan of

$2,500 from Charles B.T., proprietor of a nationally known hospital for

alcoholics. A friend indeed, he was to wait years to get his money back."



"Bert loaned the defunct Works Publishing Co. $1,000. This he obtained by

signing a note secured by his own business, then in a shaky condition."



"Mr. Rockefeller wrote a fine personal letter to each guest, expressing his

feelings about A.A., and concluding with the observation that he was making us a

modest gift."



"This so—called "Rockefeller dinner list" has since been almost the whole source

of "outside" money gifts to The Alcoholic Foundation. These donations averaged

around $3,000 annually and they were continued for about five years --1940 to

1945."



"Not long since, The Foundation Trustees were able to write the original dinner

contributors, with great thanks, that their help would no longer be needed; that

the Alcoholic Foundation had become adequately supported by the A.A. Groups and

by income from the book "Alcoholics Anonymous"; that the personal needs of Dr.

Bob and myself were being met out of book royalties."



"We realized we simply must, for the first time, ask the A.A. groups for

assistance. The Alcoholic Foundation still had no money save the $3,000 a year

"dinner fund" which was helping to keep Dr. Bob and me afloat. Besides, some of

the creditors and cash subscribers of Works Publishing (the A.A. book company)

were getting anxious again. When, they asked, were they going to get their money

back?"



"About 1942 it became evident that the Foundation ought to complete its

ownership of Works Publishing (the book "Alcoholics Anonymous"). So the Trustees

invited the outstanding cash subscribers of Works to deposit their stock with

the Foundation. Most of the original cash subscribers still needed their money,

and had to wait a long time for it. Several thousand dollars were obviously

required. Of course Group funds could not be used for this purpose.



So the Trustees, spearheaded this time by our old friend "Chip", turned again to

Mr. Rockefeller and his "dinner list." These original donors most gladly made

the Foundation the Necessary loan. This enabled the Foundation to acquire full

ownership of our A.A. book (Works Publishing, Inc.). Meanwhile, Works

Publishing, being now partly relieved of supporting the Central Office, had been

able to pay its own creditors in full. Later on, when our of A.A. book income

the Trustees offered to pay of f the Foundation debt, several of the lenders

would take only a part payment —— some none at all. At last we were in the

clear."


0 -1 0 0
8121 hdmozart hdmozart Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/9/2012 4:45:00 AM


Thank you Bob for copies of those articles -



I posted them on my personal website so AA History Lovers can access the files -

anyone can view and/or download the files from the following links -



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Ruth%20Hock%20type%20Bill's%20st\

ory.pdf



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bill's%20Story%20first%20attempt\

%20r%20&%20B.pdf



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bills%20Story%20second%20attempt\

%201.pdf




They are not indexed, the only way to access the files is from the links -



Perhaps a good home for this information will be found on a more appropriate AA

history website -



Bob, you might be interested in this link on the The Big Book Study Group of

South Orange, New Jersey -



http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/?&page=4



Towards the bottom of the page is an entry:

"Bill's Story - The Original Version

A pre-multilith version of Bill Wilson's Story with photos added to enhance the

experience."



It appears to be a PDF file containing some of the same information that you

have in "Bills Story second attempt 1"



I do hope this is helpful



Larry Holbrook

(410) 802-3099

Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com


0 -1 0 0
8122 Robt Woodson Robt Woodson Re: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/8/2012 10:06:00 PM


Quote..."If anyone could point to anything ... anything at all, from our early

history that is directly about people following the Clear-Cut directions, I

would love to see it. Thank you."



Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not just existed, but

actually thrived since those directions were set into print.  Four Editions of

the Big Book have been printed and distributed In the US and Canada alone, with

no change in those directions. There is a direct and continual timeline from

that point which indicates the phenomenal growth of a sober AA Fellowship, and

the widespread, and ongoing, dissemination of those specific written directions

of which you speak.  Or, perhaps we should, or could,  look at how many similar

fellowships that now exist and also thrive using those same twelve steps? I'm

not sure what exactly you are questioning, or looking for here? I've a hunch

that you have some agenda or some particular perceived issue, or something

problematic in mind but that you are being a bit too circumspect, in lieu of

clarity, in that regard. How about those personal stories like "Freedom from

Bondage" that specifically attribute their personal success in sobriety to

working the AA Program? The author, (Wynn C.) also mentions her lengthy

inventory list in particular in that story. Again, perhaps you have overlooked

the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions", which Bill tells us was written, in

part, in response to inquiries from sponsors working with others and to those

with other problems who thought that the twelve steps might be helpful.



Woody in Akron


0 -1 0 0
8123 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst RE: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/9/2012 3:10:00 AM


I am not sure I understand "the" question. Is Michael asking what the book

means, what the instructions are or for documentation of HOW these steps were

taken, specifically by our pioneers? Michael's second to the last statement

copied below::



"We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone

actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's

extremely puzzling"



seems puzzling to me because we have a good written document (an entire book)

that DOES state "Here are the steps we took....." Probably not the answer the

poster is looking for but we do sometimes tend to over-complicate things.



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst





-----Original Message-----

From: MichaelD

Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012

Subject: Where is the written history, or the oral history

about the written history?



Hello, Thank you for this group. I've seen this question asked in various

forms over the last ~2 years that I have been a member. I'm asking it again, in

this level of detail, because quite honestly I've been struck by the absence of

history in this area.



We write, we wrote, we make a list, we turn back to the list, We put them on

paper, we have written down a lot, we place them before us in black and white.



Where in our written history are documents or talks about what is required for

successful completion of "The Process"



Page 64: In dealing with Resentments we set them on Paper.



Page 64: We listed People, Places and Institutions.



Page 65: On our Grudge list we set opposite our Injuries.



Page: When we saw our faults we listed them, we placed them before us in black

and white.



Page 66: We turned back to the list for it held the key to the future.



Page 68: We reviewed our fears thoroughly, we put them on paper.



Page 68: Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this

all down on paper.



Page 70: If we have been thorough about our inventory, we have written down a

lot.



Page 70: We have listed and analyzed our resentments.



Page 75: When we decide who should hear our story, we waste no time. We have a

written inventory.



Page 76: We have a list of people we have harmed... We made it when we took

inventory.



There are many more examples, but for purposes of my question that's enough.



With all this written instruction in our early history, and seeing as we

serviced people by postal mail in the early days, are there no letters, no

documents, no correspondence that deal specifically with the clear cut

directions in our book? There are no letters asking for clarification? There are

no letters asking how to answer the questions of:



Where were we selfish?

Where were we dishonest?

Where were we self-seeking?

Where were we afraid?

Where have aroused jealously? Suspicion? Bitterness?

What should we have done instead?



Nobody wrote in to the NY office asking for help with these questions and

others? Bill, Bob, Clarence and others never corresponded specifically on these

questions? I find that startling, because these questions deal specifically with

How IT Works. Do we have documents on exactly how we communicated with people

about How It Works? Where are they?



We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of

anyone actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's

extremely puzzling.



If anyone could point to anything ... anything at all, from our early

history that is directly about people following the Clear-Cut directions, I

would love to see it. Thank you.


0 -1 0 0
8124 Charlie C Charlie C finding and getting books finding and getting books 1/8/2012 7:05:00 PM


Someone was asking about getting Kitchen's "I was a pagan." The moderator is

likely right, it may be pricey to buy, and there are online sites for it. But,

putting on my librarian hat for a moment, allow me to suggest some other

options:



* if you want to buy something and it isn't at amazon, local book dealer etc.,

try abebooks.com. This is a large site hosting titles from lots of used and rare

book dealers.



* if you want to know if a library has something, check your local library

system catalog, they are all online nowadays.



* if your local library system doesn't have something, try worldcat.org.

WorldCat is a shared cataloging system libraries use, and it reflects the

holdings of libraries across the country. WorldCat.org is the free public

version of the database. You can look in there, find records for a book, put in

your zip code to see if a local library owns it; see, your local public library

system may not have shown it, but maybe a local college does, and college often

allow area residents to borrow books for a small annual fee for a card.



* if no one in your local area has the book you saw a record for in WorldCat,

print the record out, and bring to your local library. They can likely get from

some other library outside your immediate area for you through the interlibrary

loan system.



* good luck, and happy AA history reading :-)

 

Charlie Cowling

Clarkson, NY

 

"Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at a distance but to do what

lies clearly at hand." Thomas Carlyle


0 -1 0 0
8125 John Barton John Barton Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group 1/8/2012 6:38:00 PM


Glenn had written:

 

(In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached

against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian

activity, transsexualism and so on.)

 

No doubt there was great emphasis in this direction - sometimes to the exclusion

of what may have really been the original message c. 30 AD. As far as the OG

"teaching" went, "purity" may have also had another (less

emphasized) connotation and that was "singleness of purpose" Here is what Robert

Collis (A Rugger Blue) told Harold Begbie who wrote the narratives for "More

Twice Born Men" (The Life Changers)



"Many believe that when they pray for purity they really and truly want to be

pure. They deceive themselves. It is a mere passing emotion. The root of the sin

is still in their hearts. Two things must go together a deep and passionate

hatred of sin, a deep and passionate craving for God.

 

Ask with singleness of mind and it shall be given you; seek with singleness of

desire and ye shall find; knock with singleness of purpose and it shall be

opened unto you, a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a

corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

The reasonableness, the inexorable justice of this teaching, brought instant

illumination to the soul of the young Irishman, and he took that plunge away

from self which baptises the spirit of a man in the living waters of eternal

life. He really wanted the touch that makes personality a whole." -- p.81



One of the books mentioned in the Akron Manual was that of Ernest Ligon - The

Psychology of Christian Personality. This is a wonderful book that examines the

Sermon on the Mount and seeks to harmonize the Christian principles with

psychology. Ligon also related "purity" to "singleness of purpose."



"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God ...."



"Here then is the last of the four characteristics of an experimental faith,

purity of heart, which is to have singleness of purpose and to look for the best

in men, with the faith that fundamentally men are good." -- p.60



The essay by Ligon, pp. 52-60, is quite enlightening and may have been the basis

for AA's adoption of the idea of "singleness of purpose"



God Bless



From: Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net>

To: AAHistoryLovers group AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 6:17 PM

Subject: Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group



 

John Barton (jax760@yahoo.com)> (jax760 at yahoo.com) has listed three important

books that we can go to if we want to find good lists of "the tenets of the

Oxford Group." If we look at the chapter headings of these three books, I think

we can put together in our own minds a good rough list of some of the major

emphases of the Oxford Group's teaching:



1. confession of our sins

2. life-changing (conversion = accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior,

then using his power to stop sinning and erase my character defects)

3. total surrender to God and Christ

4. restitution (make peace with your brother)

5. quiet time (silent meditation)

6. guidance (discovering God's plan for my life)

7. gaining strength from the power of the Holy Spirit working in meetings of the

fellowship.

8. the Four Absolutes as the four primary virtues of the Christian life.**



. . . .



**That is, using Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love, and

Absolute (Sexual) Purity to replace the traditional list of Christian moral

virtues and moral vices, which went back centuries and centuries to the early

fourth century desert monks.



(In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached

against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian

activity, transsexualism and so on.)



=======================================

THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIRTUES:



justice (fairness towards all),



temperance (keeping our emotions under control and resisting the temptation to

overindulge in the sins of the flesh),



fortitude (courage),



prudence (thinking sensibly before acting),



faith,



hope, and



love.

=======================================





=======================================

THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VICES

(Twelve + Twelve p. 48):



pride,



envy (or jealousy),



anger,



greed,



lust,



sloth,



gluttony.

=======================================


0 -1 0 0
8126 last_town last_town Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/8/2012 8:11:00 AM


I'm unable to find such a quote, but regardless of whether or not the actual

debt was ever satisfied, it seems to me that Rockefeller might have meant

something more symbolic here.

Larry



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John French wrote:

>

> I would love to verify the claim that John D. Rockefeller, Jr.

> once said that of all the donations he had given to charity, AA was the

> only one that paid him back in full.

>

> John French

>


0 -1 0 0
8127 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/9/2012 1:05:00 PM


Larry,



I could download only Bill's second attempt, but the other two addresses didn't

work.



Bob



===========================================

From the moderator: you'll have to highlight

and copy the entire address, and then paste

it into the address bar of your browser.



Then use your delete key to delete the

backslash \ in the address, before you tell

your computer to go to that address.

===========================================



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Ruth%20Hock%20type%20Bill's%20st\

ory.pdf



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bill's%20Story%20first%20attempt\

%20r%20&%20B.pdf



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bills%20Story%20second%20attempt\

%201.pdf



0 -1 0 0
8128 James Bliss James Bliss Re: Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/10/2012 12:45:00 PM


The problem is the apostrophe in the URL. This results in some mail clients not

properly picking up the address.



The solution is to just copy and paste the entire URL from the email rather than

clicking on the 'link' which is not complete due to this method of defining them

in the email clients.



Jim


0 -1 0 0
8129 MichaelD MichaelD Re: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/9/2012 5:11:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Robt Woodson wrote:

>

> Quote..."> Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not just

existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into print. Four

Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In the US and Canada

alone, with no change in those directions.."





I'm looking for a written history of people who DID the actual directions, or

any detail oral talk about the directions. Have you followed the clear cut

directions? If so , then you made a list of fears that you placed on paper.

And according to the clear-cut instructions "we asked ourselves why we had

them"...



I don't know about you but when my sponsor and his circle of Big Book Thumpers

suggested a list of fears, my first thought was "I'm not afraid of much".. As a

matter of fact, my reputation was that of a man who was afraid of nothing.

Little did I know and come to learn that I was afraid of everything. But that

aside, when my sponsor said out loud in a fourth step fear meeting " I was

afraid of peoples opinions".. I thought.. Who would admit that in public? I

had much to learn, and learn I did. I did a lot of writing. I asked dozens and

dozens of questions about "How It Works"... That book, and that chapter might

as well have been in Japanese to me. With out support and counsel and

direction, I never could have done the clear - cut directions if someone had

simply sent me a book in the mail. And I know that there were many like me in

the early history of AA. That meant they had questions, lots of questions.

Which , naturally, I assume they wrote to the authors about. Because as has been

shown, we grew the fellowship by postal mail in the early days.



So rather than think I am complicating things or I have an agenda, I am

dutifully and honestly trying to locate written evidence of How it Works

documents outside of the Big Book.



One of the instructions in the writing is to write "what would we have done

instead"... and me, being me, would have had no idea what I should have done

instead. If I knew that I would have done it already. So that is something I

may have written New York about. I might have written many things that confused

me? Such as;



What are typical fears?

Should I show my inventory to a prospect?

Should I write an inventory every year?

How many resentments are normal?

How long does an inventory normally take to write

I cannot write well, can I talk to my sponsor about the process rather than

write it down on paper?

If I am afraid of peoples opinion, and also afraid of being unacceptable, are

those the same things? Should I list them twice?



Because I know, from my own experience with following the clear-cut directions,

and sponsoring many men through the clear-cut directions that the questions and

writings are infinite. So I am seeking somewhere in our history where the men

of that day, in some way, recorded something, that they wrote something down.

Where is it?



I had one person who had 50 resentments against 50 different people for the same

thing. I was able to show him that the underlying cause and effect was a

Principle, and he could write the resentment down Once ( one entry in column

one)as a Principle and ask the four questions of the principle:



Where was he selfish?

Where was he dishonest?

Where was he self-seeking?

Where was he Frightened?



These four questions are prompted after we make the list, we ask ourselves why

we were mad, and then wrote what instinct was affected. It tells us to get this

all down on paper. Its in Chapter 5, How It Works.



Anyway, back to my prospect, who asked me "whats an institution?" because the

book says, We write down people, principles and institutions with whom we are

angry. And he did not know what a principle was. So i verbally explained it to

him. In 1942 I may have explained it in a letter.



Again.. these questions had to be being asked in 1944, 45, 46, 47 , 48, 49...

all the way to the writing of the 12/12.. they had to be. And I want to find

one letter, one document, one anything that deals with the clear-cut directions.

If anyone has that I would be very very grateful.



If your interested in The Big Book, and a comprehensive breaking down of the

clear cut directions. I am the webmaster at www.bigbookstepstudy.com I'm a

straight forward, honest guy, I'm not grinding anything but a quest for the

information.



You can check out this detailed approach that I offer on the site.



http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?180-How-It-Works-Resentment-Inventory


0 -1 0 0
8130 Michael Dudley Michael Dudley Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. 1/10/2012 7:07:00 PM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Robt Woodson wrote:



> Quote..."> Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not just

existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into print. Four

Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In the US and Canada

alone, with no change in those directions.."



I'm looking for a written history of people who DID the actual directions, or

any detail oral talk about the clear-cut directions. Have you followed the

clear cut directions? If so , then you made a

list of fears that you placed them on paper. And according to the clear-cut

instructions "we asked ourselves why we had them"...



I don't know about you but when my sponsor and his circle of Big Book Thumpers

suggested a list of fears, my first thought was "I'm not

afraid of much".. As a matter of fact, my reputation was that of a man who was

afraid of nothing. Little did I know and come to learn that I was afraid of

everything. But that aside, when my sponsor said out loud in a fourth step fear

meeting " I was afraid of peoples opinions".. I thought.. Who would admit that

in public? I had much to learn, and learn I did. I did a lot of writing. I

asked dozens and dozens of questions about "How It Works"... That book, and

that chapter might as well have been in Japanese to me. With out support and

counsel and direction, I never could have done the clear - cut directions if

someone had simply sent me a book in the mail. And I know that there were many

like me in the early history of AA. That meant they had questions, lots of

questions. Which , naturally, I assume they wrote to the authors about. Because

as has been shown, we grew the fellowship by postal mail in the early days.



So rather than think I am complicating things or I have an agenda, I am

dutifully and honestly trying to locate written evidence of How it Works

documents outside of the Big Book.



One of the instructions in the writing is to write "what would we have done

instead"... and me, being me, would have had no idea what I should have done

instead. If I knew that I would have done it already. So that is something I may

have written New York about. I might have written many things that confused me?

Such as;



What are typical fears?



Should I show my inventory to a prospect?



Should I write an inventory every year?



How many resentments are normal?



How long does an inventory normally take to write



I cannot write well, can I talk to my sponsor about the process rather than

write it down on paper?



If I am afraid of peoples opinion, and also afraid of being unacceptable, are

those the same things? Should I list them twice?



Because I know, from my own experience with following the clear-cut directions,

and sponsoring many men through the clear-cut directions that the questions and

writings are infinite. So I am seeking somewhere in our history where the men of

that day, in some way, recorded something, that they wrote something down. Where

is it?



I had one person who had 50 resentments against 50 different people for the same

thing. I was able to show him that the underlying cause and effect was a

Principle, and he could write the resentment down Once ( one entry in column

one)as a Principle and ask the four questions of the principle:



Where was he selfish?



Where was he dishonest?



Where was he self-seeking?



Where was he Frightened?



These four questions are

prompted after we make the list, we ask ourselves why we were mad, and then

wrote what instinct was affected. It tells us to get this all down on paper. Its

in Chapter 5, How It Works.



Anyway, back to my prospect, who asked me "what's an institution?" because the

book says, We write down people, principles and institutions with whom we are

angry. And he did not know what a principle was. So i verbally explained it to

him. In 1942 I may have explained it in a letter.



Again.. these questions had to be being asked in 1944, 45, 46, 47 , 48, 49...

all the way to the writing of the 12/12.. they had to be. And I want to find one

letter, one document, one anything that deals with the clear-cut directions. If

anyone has that I would be very very grateful.



If you're interested in The Big Book, and a comprehensive breaking down of the

clear cut directions. I am the webmaster at www.bigbookstepstudy.com I'm a

straight forward, honest guy, I'm not grinding anything but a quest for the

information.



You can check out this detailed approach that I offer on the site.



http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?180-How-It-Works-Resentment-Inventory


0 -1 0 0
8131 hdmozart hdmozart Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/10/2012 11:59:00 PM


Sorry for the confusion, I was trying to make things simple - To err is human,

to really foul things up requires a computer -



This link is an index and should solve all the problems



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/BillsStoryindex.htm



It has links to the 3 documents provided by Bob and a 4th link to version from

the Big Book Study Group in South Orange, NJ -



The original links will still work, but as y'all have observed they may need to

bo copied and pasted in their entirety to your web browser - the index will

simplify the process -



I was only trying to help -



While I have no problem with them on my personal site, they probably ought to be

picked up by a more mainline AA history site -


0 -1 0 0
8132 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/11/2012 12:27:00 AM


Excellent point Larry - if I had only remembered what my college professor's

said, read the question before I offer 'the' answer -



Burwell and Wilson said that Rockefeller said he was impressed in all those

posts - While our literature does make it easy to understand why claim is made,

they do not substantiate that Rockefeller ever said it -



Let's hope that Jay trips over a check from the foundation to Towns for the loan

or a check from the book proceeds to Chipman to add some credence to 'our'

claims -


0 -1 0 0
8133 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/11/2012 6:36:00 AM


Agreed Charles, even a neophyte like myself picked up on a few of those

descrepancies -



Please don't take the following the wrong way - I am most appreciative of your

corrections, the truth is always helpful -



Jim didn't get sober until January 8, 1938 with Fitz, Bill & Hank and then a

road trip changed his sobriety date to June 15, 1938 - although Jim's source may

have been Bill himself, obviously, anything he commented on prior to 1938 had to

be third hand information - this is particulary true regarding Akron activities,

Jim wasn't even there - Jim said so himself [23:45], "I know the New York

section much better than I know the Akron" -



And by March 1, 1940 Jim was in Philadelphia -



In between those dates, though I think things are a bit more interesting - Jim

attended the meetings at Bill's house, he was at the Rockefeller dinner and so

on - there's at least a few very intruiging items that he MAY have accurately

described - of course, he is subject to the usual human frailities of faulty

memory, ego, etc -



It's off topic, but I remember in Hank's story, The Unbeliever, that Hank said

that Bill had said, "studied alcoholism ... Jung ... Blank Medical Foundation

... asylums ... Hopkins ... many said incurable disease ... impossible ...

nearly all known cures had been through religion ... revolted him ... made a

study of religion ... more he studied the more it was bunk to him ... not

understandable ... self-hypnotism ... and then the thought hit him that people

had it all twisted up. They were trying to pour everyone into moulds, put a tag

on them, tell them what they had to do and how they had to do it, for the

salvation of their own souls. When as a matter of fact people were through

worrying about their souls, they wanted action right here and now. A lot of

tripe was usually built up around the simplest and most beautiful ideas in the

world" -



Admittedly hearsay [Hank's recollections of what Bill had said to him] and even

worse, Hank was going through severe withdrawal - questionable information at

best - even so, I think it paints a valuable picture of Bill's approach to a

detoxing drunk -



But now consider Jim's claim that Bill got [33:44] "most of our traditions came

from 'This Believing World' by Lewis Browne who killed himself about six months

ago - 'This Believing World' was a cross section of all religions to date, the

rise and fall and why - so we got a great deal out of that to keep from falling

like some of the other spiritual groups had fallen, where there's too much

personalities, too much property and too much politics" -



And Jim said [25:20] "In January, there were three people after three years who

had [at least?] six months sobriety in New York - that was Bill, Hank Parkhurst

and a fella named Fitz Mayo, who was instrumental in bringing me in - They were

the trio that went all around to the different universities, hospitals to find

out if there was a cured alcoholic - they went around and the doctors ... nobody

could say whether they had been cured or not - lots of them said they had cured

ones, but when they investigated they found they'd never find the cure - it

wasn't until 1941, 2 years after the book that we knew "once an alcoholic,

always an alcoholic" - we intimated and said in our book, but we did not know -

John Hopkins didn't know, Bellevue didn't know, Mayo didn't know - they had

never made the investigation" - [ex-alcoholic wasn't changed to

ex-problem-drinker in the Big Book until circa 1948]



Perhaps, Jim isn't all that far off track -



I for one am going to obtain a copy of 'This Believing World' -


0 -1 0 0
8134 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 1/12/2012 9:45:00 PM


I received a reply from Sally Brown about her sources and am forwarding it to

the list w/o comment. She makes some very good points.



Tommy H in Snowy Danville



- - - -



At 00:48 1/9/2012, Sally Brown wrote:



Hi, Tommy - Good questions! Sorry for the delay in answering.



Regarding Rollie, can't remember how we came by the info about his influence on

AA membership vis a vis the Sat Eve Post article, but it should be somewhere in

the notes we meticulously kept. And all our files were donated 2 years ago to

the Kirk Collection at Brown Univ. Incidentally, it's thanks to the sharp eyes

of AA archivists that we learned we'd misspelled Hemsley as "Helmsley." Guess

Hazelden's indexer & proof reader weren't baseball historians, either!



Vis a vis the statement about Marty's relative influence on AA's "numbers and

membership," that is our editorial comment, but one based on the profound and

far-reaching consequences of her educational efforts. We quote both Bill and

Lois Wilson as well as Bill White and others elsewhere in the book who reached

similar conclusions. It's impossible, of course, to cite actual figures, but if

one considers female AA membership alone, which now accounts for a substantial

percentage of AA membership (at least 35% in 2004), then considers the

additional numbers of lesbians and gays, plus thousands and thousands of men who

heard her and/or were influenced by NCA's outreach to join AA ( amounting to,

conservatively, at least 15% of AA's membership) --- Marty, in our opinion, can

easily be credited with the influence we attribute to her. And each of those

thousands had the potential to attract another person into AA recovery.



No question that Bill Wilson's and Bob Smith's one-to-one approach was also

extremely successful. But the multiplier effect will always be less. Just do the

math.



This is a long answer. I hope it provides some help for those interested. I'm

always grateful for the careful vetting the AAHistory Lovers provide. Maybe

somebody will be inspired to write an up-to-date article on this subject.



Shalom, Tom - and Happy New Year to you all!



Sally



Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain

United Church of Christ



coauthor with David R Brown:

A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann

The First Lady of

Alcoholics Anonymous



1470 Sand Hill Rd, 310

Palo Alto, CA 94304

Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258

www.sallyanddavidbrown.com



- - - -



Original Message from: Tom Hickcox

To: Sally Brown

Subject: Re: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography



This was posted on the A.A.H.L. today.



I checked your book and neither of the statements quoted have references. Do

you remember where the statements come from?



Tommy



- - - -



Original Message from: Gary Neidhardt

Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011

Subject: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography



In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, there are these

two statements:



1) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, announced in

1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A. As a result, he brought

more people into A.A. than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later."

p. 181



2) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and irreversible

effect on the numbers and membership composition of A.A. than did its founders,

Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186



Are these assertions accurate?



Gary Neidhardt

Lilburn, Georgia


0 -1 0 0
8135 M.J. Johnson M.J. Johnson Re: Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. 1/12/2012 10:31:00 PM


Wally Paton, southwest area archivist and historian from Tuscon, AZ, and author

of the "Back to Basics" book, claims to have searched through archives from

members of A.A. in the late 30s and 40s. After searching through many of these

archives, he further claims to have never come across anything resembling a Big

Book-based four-column inventory. Instead, he claims to have encountered

multiple examples of what he terms the "assets and liabilities checklist". An

example of this checklist format can be found online here:



http://www.austinrecovery.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Ic-esq23crE%3D&tabid=182



=============================================

A note from Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): Actually, what Wally found were

multiple printings by AA groups all over the U.S. of what is called the

"Washington D.C. pamphlet" or the "Detroit pamphlet" or the "Tablemate," etc.

It's a pamphlet, written in the early 1940's for newcomers to AA, explaining how

to work the twelve steps.



Wally recognized how marvelously well this little beginner's pamphlet worked,

and incorporated material from it into his extremely popular Back to Basics

book.



If you want to see the words of the original pamphlet, there is a copy here:



(Look especially at the last half of DISCUSSION No. 3 -- INVENTORY & RESTITUTION

-- to see your detailed list of "assets and liabilities" -- see

http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html )



http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Detr2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html

http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html



You should also try to obtain copies (photocopies if that is all you can get) of

the early editions of Ed Webster's The Little Red Book (particularly the 1946

and 1949 printings). This was the instruction manual for working the steps

(including writing your fourth step) which Dr. Bob sent to AA groups all over

the U.S. and Canada.



As far as I am concerned, every reasonable sized city should have at least one

AA meeting a week, for beginners, which reads and discusses the Washington D.C.

pamphlet (Detroit pamphlet, Tablemate, etc.). And it should have at least one AA

meeting a week, again for beginners, which reads the 1949 printing of the Little

Red Book (this was the last printing where Dr. Bob had input into how things

were phrased).



The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is a marvelous book. But it is also

usually hopelessly confusing to newcomers who have only a few weeks or a few

months of sobriety. That is just my thought on the issue, however, and not

intended to be anything more.



Glenn C.

=============================================



On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Michael Dudley michaeledudley@yahoo.com>wrote:



> **

>

>

> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Robt Woodson wrote:

>

> > Quote..."> Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not

> just existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into

> print. Four Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In

> the US and Canada alone, with no change in those directions.."

>

> I'm looking for a written history of people who DID the actual directions,

> or any detail oral talk about the clear-cut directions. Have you followed

> the clear cut directions? If so , then you made a

> list of fears that you placed them on paper. And according to the

> clear-cut instructions "we asked ourselves why we had them"...

>

> I don't know about you but when my sponsor and his circle of Big Book

> Thumpers suggested a list of fears, my first thought was "I'm not

> afraid of much".. As a matter of fact, my reputation was that of a man who

> was afraid of nothing. Little did I know and come to learn that I was

> afraid of everything. But that aside, when my sponsor said out loud in a

> fourth step fear meeting " I was afraid of peoples opinions".. I thought..

> Who would admit that in public? I had much to learn, and learn I did. I did

> a lot of writing. I asked dozens and dozens of questions about "How It

> Works"... That book, and that chapter might as well have been in Japanese

> to me. With out support and counsel and direction, I never could have done

> the clear - cut directions if someone had simply sent me a book in the

> mail. And I know that there were many like me in the early history of AA.

> That meant they had questions, lots of questions. Which , naturally, I

> assume they wrote to the authors about. Because as has been shown, we grew

> the fellowship by postal mail in the early days.

>

> So rather than think I am complicating things or I have an agenda, I am

> dutifully and honestly trying to locate written evidence of How it Works

> documents outside of the Big Book.

>

> One of the instructions in the writing is to write "what would we have

> done instead"... and me, being me, would have had no idea what I should

> have done instead. If I knew that I would have done it already. So that is

> something I may have written New York about. I might have written many

> things that confused me? Such as;

>

> What are typical fears?

>

> Should I show my inventory to a prospect?

>

> Should I write an inventory every year?

>

> How many resentments are normal?

>

> How long does an inventory normally take to write

>

> I cannot write well, can I talk to my sponsor about the process rather

> than write it down on paper?

>

> If I am afraid of peoples opinion, and also afraid of being unacceptable,

> are those the same things? Should I list them twice?

>

> Because I know, from my own experience with following the clear-cut

> directions, and sponsoring many men through the clear-cut directions that

> the questions and writings are infinite. So I am seeking somewhere in our

> history where the men of that day, in some way, recorded something, that

> they wrote something down. Where is it?

>

> I had one person who had 50 resentments against 50 different people for

> the same thing. I was able to show him that the underlying cause and effect

> was a Principle, and he could write the resentment down Once ( one entry in

> column one)as a Principle and ask the four questions of the principle:

>

> Where was he selfish?

>

> Where was he dishonest?

>

> Where was he self-seeking?

>

> Where was he Frightened?

>

> These four questions are

> prompted after we make the list, we ask ourselves why we were mad, and

> then wrote what instinct was affected. It tells us to get this all down on

> paper. Its in Chapter 5, How It Works.

>

> Anyway, back to my prospect, who asked me "what's an institution?" because

> the book says, We write down people, principles and institutions with whom

> we are angry. And he did not know what a principle was. So i verbally

> explained it to him. In 1942 I may have explained it in a letter.

>

> Again.. these questions had to be being asked in 1944, 45, 46, 47 , 48,

> 49... all the way to the writing of the 12/12.. they had to be. And I want

> to find one letter, one document, one anything that deals with the

> clear-cut directions. If anyone has that I would be very very grateful.

>

> If you're interested in The Big Book, and a comprehensive breaking down of

> the clear cut directions. I am the webmaster at www.bigbookstepstudy.comI'm a

straight forward, honest guy, I'm not grinding anything but a quest

> for the information.

>

> You can check out this detailed approach that I offer on the site.

>

>

> http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?180-How-It-Works-Resentment-Inventory


0 -1 0 0
8136 Andrew from East of England, Andrew from East of England, Re: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/13/2012 5:10:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst"

wrote:

>

> I am not sure I understand "the" question. Is Michael asking what the book

means, what the instructions are or for documentation of HOW these steps were

taken, specifically by our pioneers? Michael's second to the last statement

copied below::

>

> "We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone

actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's

> extremely puzzling"

>

> seems puzzling to me because we have a good written document (an entire book)

that DOES state "Here are the steps we took....." Probably not the answer the

poster is looking for but we do sometimes tend to over-complicate things.

>

> In Service With Gratitude,

>

> Chuck Parkhurst



Greetings all in reply,



I was helped by Michael's further post.



It is important, especially when I communicate by written word, that is not

heard, or the writer seen as, as those words are written, that I strive to avoid

all assumption of a deeper meaning than are explicit in the words used.



I know that I can easily summon up words but that sometimes having not

'understood' at its deepest point what the other is communicating, I respond

sometimes almost by rote and do not even 'feel' my own words and can have no

idea how someone else, with entirely different life experiences from me will

understand my meaning(s) - especially those unspoken 'feelings' that are behind

my words and possibly 'feelings' of which not even I am conscious.



I am fortunate in having the facility of writing and email, etc., as I write I

can sometimes 'access' a deeper awareness and then perhaps eventually understand

my own feelings.



We are encouraged to engage and share when the founders of the 'Big Book' tell

us that they discovered that 'honesty' with ourselves is at the heart of the

recovery programme/system/ call it what you will, in the book, Alcoholics

Anonymous.



So thanks to Michael for his further post.



Regards



Andrew from Essex, East of England, UK





>


0 -1 0 0
8137 tedsstop@aol.com tedsstop@a... Re: Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller b... Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller b... 1/13/2012 1:05:00 AM


In a message dated 1/12/2012 9:10:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

email@LaurenceHolbrook.com writes:



Excellent point Larry - if I had only remembered what my college

professor's said, read the question before I offer 'the' answer -



Burwell and Wilson said that Rockefeller said he was impressed in all those

posts - While our literature does make it easy to understand why claim is made,

they do not substantiate that Rockefeller ever said it -



Let's hope that Jay trips over a check from the foundation to Towns for the

loan or a check from the book proceeds to Chipman to add some credence to 'our'

claims -


0 -1 0 0
8138 Lois Stevens Lois Stevens Principles embodied in the Steps Principles embodied in the Steps 1/15/2012 12:59:00 AM


Hello, This is Lois S. a Grateful Member. Is it possible for you to tell me how

did they come to put principles behind the steps. or where did the principles

embodied in the steps come from and in what

year???



Honesty

Hope

Faith

Courage

Integrity .... and so on



Thank You



_________________________________________



The AA Principles and Virtues



Honesty

1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become

unmanageable.



Hope

Step 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to

sanity.



FAITH

Step 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God

as we understood him.



Courage

Step 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.



Integrity

Step 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact

nature of our wrongs.



Willingness



Step 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.



Humility

Step 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.



Brotherly Love

Step 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make

amends to them all.



Justice

Step 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do

so would injure them or others.



Perseverance

Step 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly

admitted it.



Spirituality

Step 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact

with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us

and the power to carry that out.



Service

Step 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we

tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics and to practice

these principles in all our affairs.



**I understand that the 12 Steps are the Principles we live by, They sell these

as book marks in the area office. So I understand that it's not in our

literature but how did it come about?



I was told that 2 men from Texas sent them in to the Grapevine.



Thank You!


0 -1 0 0
8139 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: Principles embodied in the Steps Principles embodied in the Steps 1/17/2012 2:08:00 PM


At 00:59 1/15/2012, Lois Stevens wrote:



>Hello, This is Lois S. a Grateful Member. Is it possible for you to

>tell me how did they come to put principles behind the steps. or

>where did the principles embodied in the steps come from and in what

>year???

>

>Honesty

>Hope

>Faith

>Courage

>Integrity .... and so on

>

>Thank You

____________________________________________



Wilson wrote an article for the July 1953 Grapevine titled "12 Steps

in 30 Minutes."



It is available online and would help one understand the question and

possible answer(s).



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8140 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker A new book: 'Rogers Burnham: The Original Man Behind Bill W." A new book: 'Rogers Burnham: The Original Man Behind Bill W." 1/19/2012 2:24:00 PM


A new book has been published by Les Cole: "Rogers Burnham, The Original Man

Behind Bill W." Printed by Xlibris http://www.xlibris.com>



For a description of this book go to: http://www.LesCole-AA.com>



I personally found this book enlightening concerning many facts about Bill

Wilson's early influences; I also enjoyed the previously unpublished pictures,

charts and graphs around the East Dorset and Manchester Village area.



Bob S.



PS -- Les Cole's email is elsietwo@msn.com (elsietwo at msn.com)


0 -1 0 0
8141 Bob K Bob K The little religion that's not a religion The little religion that's not a religion 1/19/2012 4:42:00 PM


I have a recollection of a Bill Wilson quote describing AA as "the little

religion that's not a religion."  Can someone tell me where this is from, or is

my 62 year old brain playing tricks on me ?

 

Sober and happy in a cold, snowy Whitby, just east of Toronto.



bob k.


0 -1 0 0
8142 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: Principles embodied in the Steps Principles embodied in the Steps 1/20/2012 4:11:00 PM


Tommy, do you have a link to where that is in the old Grapevines -- thanks, Norm



- - - -



From: Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1@cox.net)>

Subject: Re: Principles embodied in the Steps

Date: Tuesday, January 17, 2012, 2:08 PM



Wilson wrote an article for the July 1953 Grapevine titled "12 Steps in 30

Minutes."



It is available online and would help one understand the question and possible

answer(s).



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8143 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Step 11 nightly prayer alterations from Manuscript to Big Book Step 11 nightly prayer alterations from Manuscript to Big Book 1/24/2012 10:21:00 AM


The first full paragraph of page 86 of the Big Book begins with: "When we retire

at night, we constructively reviewed our day. Were we resentful, selfish,

dishonest or afraid."



But Bill Wilson's writing in his original "Working Manuscript" is stated thusly:

"When we awake tomorrow morning we look back over the day before. Were we

resentful, selfish, dishonest, or afraid." [Manuscript page 43]



I find this interesting as how Bill didn't originally consider an Eleven Step

prayer before retiring at night, but happily the original working manuscript was

altered so as we now have available this important nightly procedure.



This "Working Manuscript" was edited (handwritten notes) in mid February of

1939 and "When we retire at night," is not suggested at this time. The said

change must have taken place later in the "printers copy."



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
8144 Laurie Andrews Laurie Andrews Spirituality and Addiction Conference: Chester, England Spirituality and Addiction Conference: Chester, England 1/24/2012 5:50:00 PM


A day conference on Addiction and Spirituality will be held at Chester

University on March 14th (please register before Feb 24th).



Dr Wendy Dossett

Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies

Department of Theology and Religious Studies

University of Chester

Parkgate road

Chester

CH1 4BJ



E-mail address:

w.dossett@chester.ac.uk> (w.dossett at chester.ac.uk)

mobile: +44 (0)7837 958468

http://www.chester.ac.uk/postgraduate/religious_studies



==================================================

ADDICTION: A SPIRITUAL ILLNESS WITH A SPIRITUAL SOLUTION?



10am-4pm Wednesday March 14th 2012

University of Chester

Binks Building Room CBK013



The University of Chester

Centre for Faiths and Public Policy

Department of Theology and Religious Studies



The conference aims to:

* examine the role of spirituality/religion in the understanding of drug/alcohol

addiction and its treatment

* promote dialogue between religious and secular understandings of the

nature of addiction and models of recovery

* develop new theories for understanding the inter-connectedness between

addiction/recovery, and religion/spirituality

* consider the public policy implications of the conference themes



SPEAKERS:



Professor Chris Cook

Professorial Research Fellow in the Department of Theology and Religion, Durham

University

* Director of the Project for Spirituality, Theology & Health, Durham University

* Author of Alcohol, Addiction & Christian Ethics, Cambridge, CUP, 2006.



Professor Jim Orford

Emeritus Professor of Clinical and Community Psychology, University of

Birmingham

* International expert in addictions -- with a special interest in gambling

* 2010 recipient of the E.M. Jellinek international award for excellence in the

field of alcohol and other addictions



Dr Ashraf Kahn

Consultant Psychiatrist at the Woodbourne Priory Hospital, Birmingham

* Honorary Senior Clinical Psychiatrist in the Department of Psychiatry,

Division of Neuroscience, Birmingham Medical School

* Non-Alcoholic Trustee on the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous



Dr Wendy Dossett

Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, University of Chester

* Principal Investigator on the Higher Power Project



Wynford Ellis Owen

Chief Executive Officer of the Welsh Council on Alcohol and Other Drugs

* Chief Executive of Living Room Cardiff, a major new day-care recovery centre

for South Wales

* Author of No Room to Live, Cardiff: Gomer Press, WCAOD, 2010



Dr Lynden Finlay

Director of the Treatment Team

* Rhoserchan Residential Drug and Alcohol Addiction Treatment Centre



Sandra Hobbs

Representative of Quaker Action on Alcohol and Drugs (QAAD)

* Former counsellor for the ARA Project in Bristol



REGISTRATION (by February 24th 2012)

* Waged -- £52

* Students/Unwaged -- £15

* Cheques payable to the University of Chester

Send to: Carly McEvoy,

Dept of Theology and Religious Studies, University of Chester, Parkgate Road,

CHESTER CH1 4BJ

Email: c.mcevoy@chester.ac.uk

* LUNCH INCLUDED -- please inform Carly of dietary requirements

* General Enquires to Wendy Dossett: w.dossett@chester.ac.uk

==================================================


0 -1 0 0
8145 Tinman Tinman A date I should remember: Bill and Lois' wedding date A date I should remember: Bill and Lois' wedding date 1/24/2012 10:01:00 PM


Bill and Lois Wilson were married on January 24, 1918.



They enjoyed 53 years of marriage until Bill died,

also on January 24, 1971.



Audio Clip of Lois Wilson: http://www.steppingstones.org

(in left hand column, about the middle)



Stepping Stones, the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson


0 -1 0 0
8146 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? 1/25/2012 1:08:00 PM


A recent post revealed as how the reviewers of Bill Wilson's original

manuscript changed page 43 from a morning prayer, to as now written in our Big

Books: "When we retire at night, . . ." (p. 86).



The reason for this alteration has been explained to me, just today! The Big

Book writers, for whatever reason, avoided using references to the Oxford

Group's teaching (probably referring to the OG morning watch practice).



So, further research of the fourth paragraph of manuscript page 43 has revealed

references to the OG in two different hand printed styles, obviously written by

two different people:



1. On the left side is hand printed in large lettering: Oxford Group



2. On the right side is hand printed in large lettering: Pouring the

mold (this is referring to the mold of OG teaching)



So, this aversion to OG teaching might well explain the incentive for this

paragraph being written into the 'printers copy from : "When we awake tomorrow

morning, . . ." to: "When we retire at night, . . ."



At any rate, I am happy it turned out that way!



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
8147 Richard Dillon Richard Dillon Re: Principles embodied in the Steps Principles embodied in the Steps 1/21/2012 9:52:00 PM


From Richard Dillon, tommy Hickcox, and Warren Pangburn



- - - -



From: Richard Dillon dillonr9@yahoo.com>

(dillonr9 at yahoo.com)



Thank You all. I believe this works:



Where Did The 12 Steps Come From?

by Bill W. (July 1953 A.A. Grapevine)

http://serenityfound.org/history/where_12_steps.html



- - - -



From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net>

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



It's in the Grapevine's digital archives

http://da.aagrapevine.org/?q=dahttp://da.aagrapevine.org/?q=da>



Sign into the digital archives and either search for the title or go to the July

1953 issue.



The GDA are a great resource. They have every Grapevine on line, including the

cartoons.



As you can imagine, there is a vast amount of information available. Bill used

the GV to communicate with the Fellowship. All that is there and available for

the modest subscription fee.



Tommy in Danville



- - - -



From: Warren Pangburn (wepangburn@yahoo.com)>

(wepangburn at yahoo.com)



I believe that they are only people's interpretation of what the foreword to the

12 + 12 says, that they are a set of principles spiritual in their nature if

practiced as a way of life ... etc.



I do not know of any other AA literature which describes each one individually.



May peace, love, and harmony be with you today,

Warren Pangburn



3341 S. 21st. St. Abilene Texas 79605

"It's In The Book" In God we trust.

Home & FAX: 325-232-7727, Cell:325-513-2034


0 -1 0 0
8148 corafinch corafinch Re: From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? 1/26/2012 9:07:00 AM


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Stonebraker"

wrote:

>

> A recent post revealed as how the reviewers of Bill Wilson's original

> manuscript changed page 43 from a morning prayer, to as now written in our Big

Books: "When we retire at night, . . ." (p. 86).

>



That is definitely an interesting page! Certainly it makes sense that the AA

writers would have favored a switch away from the "Morning Watch" associated

with the Oxford Group. Evening prayer including an examination of conscience is

a generic tradition, and wouldn't remind people as much of the Groupers. I'm not

sure if I can follow you on some of the other points, though. These two

pencilled-in comments actually look to me like they were written by the same

person, not different as you said:

>

> 1. On the left side is hand printed in large lettering: Oxford Group

>

> 2. On the right side is hand printed in large lettering: Pouring the

> mold (this is referring to the mold of OG teaching)

>

Do you or your source have a specific reason for reading these as two different

"voices"? It doesn't make sense to me, either, that the "mold" would be "OG

teaching." Traditionally the mold motif refers to God's plan for each

individual, which will differ from that of anyone else. So the Christian task is

to find out as much as we can about the person God wants us to be, then work

toward becoming that person. Pouring the mold, I think, has to do with changing

one's thinking and behavior in that direction, which is not necessarily the same

thing as conformity to a dogma. The anonymous editor (Parkhurst?) may have been

translating OG ideas rather than weeding them out.



Does anyone know of there is a meaning to that little sun/star/circle dingbat

below the words "Pouring the mold"? It looks a little like a compass rose or

Bethlehem star. It could just be someone's doodle, but do we normally doodle on

other people's manuscripts?



Cora


0 -1 0 0
8149 Scatman Scatman Who was spokesman for the distilling companies -- Tradition Six Who was spokesman for the distilling companies -- Tradition Six 1/26/2012 9:12:00 PM


Pages 157-159 in the 12&12, there is reference to an AA member who was offered

employment by a ? liquor association ?, who wanted the member to break

anonymity, and become a spokesperson for the association in their efforts to

educate the public about alcohol.



It seems to me I stumbled across this person's identity somewhere before, but I

can't recall where it was, any help would be appreciated.


0 -1 0 0
8150 jaw24hours jaw24hours Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers 1/26/2012 3:29:00 PM


I have a copy of High Road to Happiness (late 1940's early 1950's) distributed

by the Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, Iowa. (I have as a HTM file & PDF.)



Hello, yes I'm very interested in this pamphlet. I have a copy of the Brighter

Side news letter from 1946. I would share, if interested.

Please e-mail me at



jaw24hours@yahoo.com

(jaw24hours at yahoo.com)



Thanks.


0 -1 0 0
8151 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Re: From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? 1/26/2012 5:25:00 PM


Thank you Cora!



The following website[s] include a section of the fourth paragraph of

manuscript page 43 from the Original Working Manuscript of Alcoholics

anonymous.



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/

and scroll down, or go to



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/Manuscript%20p%2043.pdf



In further consideration I now also believe that the writer of 'OXFORD

GROUP' on the left side of the fourth paragraph, is the same who wrote

'POURING THE MOLD' on the right side. The doodles under both of these writings

are further evidence that they are the same person. Also the capital letter 'R'

are near-same on either side.



I wonder what is meant by the use of the word 'mold', if it is not in

reference to the OG? It is used on Manuscript page 30 (Chapter 5, How It Works)

stating:



'SHOULD BE STUDIED FROM THE MOLD ANGLE.'



Thanks in advance for information as to how these handwritten inserts relate to

the text of this manuscript.



Bob S.



=========================================



From: corafinch

Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012

Subject: Re: From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence?



> A recent post revealed as how the reviewers of Bill Wilson's original

> manuscript changed page 43 from a morning prayer, to as now written in our

Big Books: "When we retire at night, . . ." (p. 86).

>



That is definitely an interesting page! Certainly it makes sense that the AA

writers would have favored a switch away from the "Morning Watch" associated

with the Oxford Group. Evening prayer including an examination of conscience

is a generic tradition, and wouldn't remind people as much of the Groupers.

I'm not sure if I can follow you on some of the other points, though. These

two pencilled-in comments actually look to me like they were written by the

same person, not different as you said:

>

> 1. On the left side is hand printed in large lettering: Oxford Group

>

> 2. On the right side is hand printed in large lettering: Pouring the

> mold (this is referring to the mold of OG teaching)

>

Do you or your source have a specific reason for reading these as two

different "voices"? It doesn't make sense to me, either, that the "mold"

would be "OG teaching." Traditionally the mold motif refers to God's plan

for each individual, which will differ from that of anyone else. So the

Christian task is to find out as much as we can about the person God wants

us to be, then work toward becoming that person. Pouring the mold, I think,

has to do with changing one's thinking and behavior in that direction, which

is not necessarily the same thing as conformity to a dogma. The anonymous

editor (Parkhurst?) may have been translating OG ideas rather than weeding

them out.



Does anyone know of there is a meaning to that little sun/star/circle

dingbat below the words "Pouring the mold"? It looks a little like a compass

rose or Bethlehem star. It could just be someone's doodle, but do we

normally doodle on other people's manuscripts?



Cora


0 -1 0 0
8152 awuh1 awuh1 The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript 1/26/2012 5:50:00 PM


I agree that references to the “mold angle” and “pour people into molds” is

somewhat broader than just a reference to the Oxford Group. To me, it seems

more a reaction against injunctions and ridged interpretations with regard to

religious AS WELL AS big book content. In Henry Parkhurst’s personal story

“THE UNBELIEVER” (original working manuscript OWM p. 91) he states “If ministers

could only just advise people and not try to tell them what they had to do, he

(referring to Bill) figured religion would be more successful with the fellows

like us … figured most preachers tried to pour people into some mould of their

own.” This seems to be something Henry may have felt even more strongly about

than Bill.



It would also seem to me that Henry may have even argued against injunctions

when it came to the some or all of the 12 steps. Top of p.30 OWM (how it works)

is written “Should be studied from the mold angle”. Then again on p.32 left

margin “all thru-“Bill is known as a person that doesn’t want to pour into

molds.”



The last page of the OWM p.156 ties the two together when it states “We have

said consistently the trouble with org religion is that they try to dogmatically

pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific instructions in the book

such as do this and do that? You can obscure many alcoholics.”



I am assuming that at least some of these remarks in the margins are from Henry

Parkhurst, as that the word “mold” is spelled (as the less common and more

British) “mould” in both his story and the last instance of this word in the

margins. (Let me plead for anyone out there who has a handwriting analysis of

the OWM to share it. I would be most interested to find if all the references to

“the mold angle” came from Henry.)



I find this “mold angle” debate, as it was taking place at the time, to be one

of the most fascinating, as well as one of the most important, in early AA.


0 -1 0 0
8153 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Collected Ernie Kurtz: last four chapters available online Collected Ernie Kurtz: last four chapters available online 1/27/2012 5:57:00 PM


The first eight articles in Ernest Kurtz, THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ (orig. pub.

1999 by Charlie Bishop, Jr., reprinted 2008 by Glenn Chesnut at Hindsfoot) were

put online and made available for downloading several weeks ago at:



http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html



THE LAST FOUR ARTICLES CAN NOW ALSO BE DOWNLOADED:



======================================

9. Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey

http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf



10. Whatever Happened to Twelve-Step Programs?

http://hindsfoot.org/tcek10.pdf



11. Why A.A. Works: The Intellectual Significance of Alcoholics Anonymous

http://hindsfoot.org/tcek11.pdf



12. Here's to Spuds MacKenzie!

http://hindsfoot.org/tcek12.pdf

======================================



These twelve talks represent AA's top historian at his best. All are chock full

of information and thoughtful insights.


0 -1 0 0
8154 aa061035 aa061035 Re: pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook, copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd. pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook, copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd. 1/28/2012 1:39:00 PM


Does anyone have a copy of the pamphlet "Handbook for Setting Up an Archival

Repository (3/96)"?



I am trying to verify the source of the quote:

"The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so

that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our

Fellowship."



http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf

says it was the Archives Committee in 1971.



Ernst Kurtz, in his book Not-God, says it was George M at the 1974 GSC (page

294).



Thanks in advance.

John G



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins" wrote:



> Frank M's farewell address to the 1996 General Service Conference, with its

Conference theme of "Preserving Our Fellowship-Our Challenge," is reprinted with

permission of A.A.W.S., Inc.

>

> G.S.O. Archives: Window on the Past, Guide to the Present,

> and Light for the Future


0 -1 0 0
8155 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst RE: The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript 1/27/2012 9:48:00 PM


Merton M is the BEST source for confirming Hank's handwriting



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of awuh1

Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 3:51 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig.

working manuscript



I agree that references to the "mold angle" and "pour people into molds" is

somewhat broader than just a reference to the Oxford Group. To me, it seems

more a reaction against injunctions and ridged interpretations with regard

to religious AS WELL AS big book content. In Henry Parkhurst's personal

story "THE UNBELIEVER" (original working manuscript OWM p. 91) he states "If

ministers could only just advise people and not try to tell them what they

had to do, he (referring to Bill) figured religion would be more successful

with the fellows like us . figured most preachers tried to pour people into

some mould of their own." This seems to be something Henry may have felt

even more strongly about than Bill.



It would also seem to me that Henry may have even argued against injunctions

when it came to the some or all of the 12 steps. Top of p.30 OWM (how it

works) is written "Should be studied from the mold angle". Then again on

p.32 left margin "all thru-"Bill is known as a person that doesn't want to

pour into molds."



The last page of the OWM p.156 ties the two together when it states "We have

said consistently the trouble with org religion is that they try to

dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific

instructions in the book such as do this and do that? You can obscure many

alcoholics."



I am assuming that at least some of these remarks in the margins are from

Henry Parkhurst, as that the word "mold" is spelled (as the less common and

more British) "mould" in both his story and the last instance of this word

in the margins. (Let me plead for anyone out there who has a handwriting

analysis of the OWM to share it. I would be most interested to find if all

the references to "the mold angle" came from Henry.)



I find this "mold angle" debate, as it was taking place at the time, to be

one of the most fascinating, as well as one of the most important, in early

AA.


0 -1 0 0
8156 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Manuscript - Meaning of Pouring the mould Manuscript - Meaning of Pouring the mould 1/27/2012 10:10:00 PM


As of recent, on AAHL, recent queries have appeared concerning the meaning of

word "mould" and the Phrase, "Pouring the mould," etc.



The handwritten note on Manuscript Page 156, states: "We have said

constantly the trouble with org [anized] religion is that they try to

dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific

instructions in the book such as saying do this and do that." "You can

obscure many alcoholics."



I believe this explains the mystery, at least for yours truly.



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
8157 ricktompkins ricktompkins RE: AA Archives purpose AA Archives purpose 1/29/2012 7:07:00 PM


The source of quote is the Trustees Archives Committee.



In its Policy statement, the quote was always included in its Scope and

Purpose for the "Handbook for Setting Up an Alcoholics Anonymous Archival

Repository." My fading photocopies of 1/89 and 2/92 have no changes and the

same statement is included in the AAWS M-441 "Archives Workbook." Both the

Handbooks and the Workbooks (since 2001) are works in progress and are

updated every year but the Purpose wording hasn't changed.



In A.A. Archivist Frank M.'s farewell talk to the 1998 General Service

Conference, he attributed the quote to Bill W. "The main purpose of the

Archives, consistent with AA's primary purpose, is to keep the record

straight so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history

of our Fellowship." That phrase very well could have been written down by

Bill somewhere, sometime. Here's another quip from Bill in 1957



".It is highly important that the factual material be placed in our files in

such a way that there can be no substantial distortion." Perhaps a

paraphrase of that writing, also printed in each Handbook and Workbook, led

to the 1973 Purpose statement.



Seeing that it was voted into place by the Trustees Archives Committee and

reported by its Chairman George G. at the 1974 GSC, I'd call it a Committee

consensus.



Rick, Illinois



_____



From: AAHistoryovers@yahoogroups.com

AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of aa061035

Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:39 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook,

copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd.



Does anyone have a copy of the pamphlet "Handbook for Setting Up an Archival

Repository (3/96)"?

I am trying to verify the source of the quote:

"The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so

that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our

Fellowship."

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf

says it was the Archives Committee in 1971.

Ernst Kurtz, in his book Not-God, says it was George M at the 1974 GSC (page

294).

Thanks in advance.

John G

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

, "ricktompkins"

wrote:

> Frank M's farewell address to the 1996 General Service Conference, with

its Conference theme of "Preserving Our Fellowship-Our Challenge," is

reprinted with permission of A.A.W.S., Inc.

> G.S.O. Archives: Window on the Past, Guide to the Present,

> and Light for the Future


0 -1 0 0
8158 Joanna Joanna Tom Powers Tom Powers 1/31/2012 3:51:00 PM


Recently I heard that Tom Powers passed away - does anyone have the details on

his death?



thanks,



Joanna


0 -1 0 0
8159 brian koch brian koch RE: Tom Powers Tom Powers 2/1/2012 9:01:00 AM


i saw reference to Tom Powers Sr dying in 2005. see this link.

http://www.austinrecovery.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=mSr2iZYylT4%3D&tabid=104





Brian



- - - -



From: intuitiveart@yahoo.com

Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012

Subject: Tom Powers



Recently I heard that Tom Powers passed away - does anyone have the details on

his death?



thanks,



Joanna


0 -1 0 0
8160 dorothy.banks97 dorothy.banks97 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 1/30/2012 2:15:00 AM


On 31st March the first recorded meeting was held in Room 202 of the Dorchester

Hotel, London, at the invitation of Grace O, a visiting American member who had

previously met Canadian Bob in a London Dean St restaurant. The Dorchester

meeting comprised, Grace, Bob B, Chris L B, Vernon W (an American serviceman),

Norman Rees-Watkins (S Croydon), Pat F (London), Ward Williams (American).

Canadian Bob was made Group Secretary.



Canadian Bob recalls the meeting,"It was Grace O. who really triggered off the

inception of AA in England. She had written to me before she and her husband

embarked at New York on one of the Queens.



Can anyone there at history lovers update on the happy fate of the usa members

who attended please?


0 -1 0 0
8161 brian koch brian koch Henry Parkhurst Henry Parkhurst 1/30/2012 7:28:00 AM


I have heard much about Merton M, but have also heard that people are having

trouble contacting him. I was hoping he could be a source for my attempts to

find the final resting place, if there is one, of Hank Parkhurst. Can anyone

provide me with contact info for Merton, or pass on mine to him?



Brian Koch

215-390-7508

kochbrian@hotmail.com

(kochbrian at hotmail.com)



- - - -



From: ineedpage63@cox.net

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012

Subject: RE: The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript



Merton M is the BEST source for confirming Hank's handwriting


0 -1 0 0
8162 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: AA Archives purpose AA Archives purpose 1/30/2012 4:58:00 PM


The following is from the Final Conference Report for1974 page 24.



Hope this helps



Charles from Wisconsin





Archival Library Organized ; Early A.A. Records Preserved



TRUSTEES' COMMITTEE: The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the

record straight, so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the

history of our Fellowship. The library can give A.A. a sense of its own past and

the opportunity to study it. There is also interest in A.A. among sociologists,

historians, and other professionals who want to find out what A.A. is and how it

started. The archives should be accessible to historians, as well as to A.A.'s,

but each request should be individually judged.



Bill's files from Stepping Stones have been integrated with his files at

G.S.O. Early, irreplaceable A.A. material has been placed in a safe-deposit

box, with copies made for the library. Directories, Conference Reports, and

bulletins have been bound. Letters were sent to 190 old-time A.A.'s asking

their help; 105 affirmative replies and much material have been sent in. Files

of the first 100 groups in the U.S. and Canada have been collected. Papers are

being prepared for microfilming, and steps are being taken to put sound

material on permanent tape.

-George G.. chairman



BIO:

GEORGE N. GORDON, Ph.D. (110-15 11 Rd., Forest Hilis, N.Y. 11375), was elected a

director of the A.A. Grapevine in 1969 and has served as its treasurer since

1970. Since his last drink, in 1964. he has served his local group in most

offices and the New York Intergroup Association on several committees. He is

director of the Communications Center at Hofstra University in Hempstead, N.Y.

and author or co-author of 13 nonfiction books, 11 of them written after joining

A.A. George is a member of the Finance Committee in the capacity of Grapevine

treasurer, a member of the Literature, Policy, Long-Range Planning. and Employee

Retirement Committees, and chairman of the Archives Committee.





>________________________________

>From: ricktompkins (ricktompkins@comcast.net)>

>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

>Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:07 PM

>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: AA Archives purpose

>



>The source of quote is the Trustees Archives Committee.

>

>In its Policy statement, the quote was always included in its Scope and

>Purpose for the "Handbook for Setting Up an Alcoholics Anonymous Archival

>Repository." My fading photocopies of 1/89 and 2/92 have no changes and the

>same statement is included in the AAWS M-441 "Archives Workbook." Both the

>Handbooks and the Workbooks (since 2001) are works in progress and are

>updated every year but the Purpose wording hasn't changed.

>

>In A.A. Archivist Frank M.'s farewell talk to the 1998 General Service

>Conference, he attributed the quote to Bill W. "The main purpose of the

>Archives, consistent with AA's primary purpose, is to keep the record

>straight so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history

>of our Fellowship." That phrase very well could have been written down by

>Bill somewhere, sometime. Here's another quip from Bill in 1957

>

>".It is highly important that the factual material be placed in our files in

>such a way that there can be no substantial distortion." Perhaps a

>paraphrase of that writing, also printed in each Handbook and Workbook, led

>to the 1973 Purpose statement.

>

>Seeing that it was voted into place by the Trustees Archives Committee and

>reported by its Chairman George G. at the 1974 GSC, I'd call it a Committee

>consensus.

>

>Rick, Illinois

>

>_____

>

>From: AAHistoryovers@yahoogroups.com

>AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aa061035

>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:39 PM

>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook,

>copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd.

>

>Does anyone have a copy of the pamphlet "Handbook for Setting Up an Archival

>Repository (3/96)"?

>I am trying to verify the source of the quote:

>"The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so

>that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our

>Fellowship."

>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf

>says it was the Archives Committee in 1971.

>Ernst Kurtz, in his book Not-God, says it was George M at the 1974 GSC (page

>294).

>Thanks in advance.

>John G


0 -1 0 0
8163 donaldl.mansell donaldl.mansell AA Today AA Today 1/31/2012 5:29:00 PM


In "As Bill Sees It" the description says that the quotes come from Grapevine

and individual letters and "AA Today". I've searched but came up empty when

looking for "AA Today". Any suggestions?

Thank you.



- - - -



NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR G.C.



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5579



AA Today: a special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating the 25th

Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous (copyright 1960, 1988)


0 -1 0 0
8164 bernadette macleod bernadette macleod Paying the hotel bill at the Mayflower Hotel Paying the hotel bill at the Mayflower Hotel 1/27/2012 11:34:00 AM


How did Bill pay for the hotel bill in Akron when he was short of money? How

much would a hotel bill cost approximately back then?



Thanks, bernadette m.

King City Group

King City, Ontario



- - - -



NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR G.C. -- from our past messages



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5529

From: "Robert Stonebraker" (rstonebraker212@comcast.net)>

(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)



How Bill Wilson's hotel bill was paid? A

possible answer could lie in the fact that

Bill received living expenses from the firm

of Baer and Company who sent Bill to Akron

to attempt a take-over of the Akron National

Rubber Company. Pass It On, p. 135, third

full paragraph: "He had little money, but

they promised to support his efforts."



Apparently they did, throughout that entire

summer; page 42 of Not God, first full

paragraph, states: "Early in September, Bill

Wilson's proxy battle met another apparent

defeat. His sponsors soured on projects

continuing costs, and Bill departed for New

York."



Of course, one wonders whether Henrietta

Seiberling might have paid it for him before

he moved to the Portage Lodge that month.



Bob S.


0 -1 0 0
8165 Keith Keith Re: Tom Powers Tom Powers 2/1/2012 5:00:00 PM


are you refering to Tom senior or Tom junior. You can find Tom Powers,Jr at

alladdictsanonymous.com


0 -1 0 0
8166 pamelafro88 pamelafro88 Re: Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery 2/5/2012 2:20:00 AM


This is an old thread, but has this been authenticated/discounted yet? The link

to which the thread refers is no longer available

Pam F



- - - -



From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com)

Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm

Subject: Re: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others



Dr. Bob wrote this prescription --

1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others:



http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html



- - - -



Message #3113

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3113



> The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a

prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the

bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top.

>

> The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the

handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have

been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed

on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed

pretty convincing to me.

>

> But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in the

group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the

prescription?


0 -1 0 0
8167 John Williams John Williams Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers 1/28/2012 4:31:00 PM


OK wow, what a response. I was actually looking for the 20 page PDF of the

Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, IAs 12 step pamphlet, and/or copies of their

newsletter.



I have a copy of a newsletter I picked up at the Oelwein, IA Alano club. If

anyone has more of these newsletters or the full 20 page pamphlet of the 12

steps that they published in 1940s, I would sure like a copy. The group was

using the four absolutes in their 4th step guide and is good example of how the

groups functioned in Iowa during the 40s and 50s. The Brighter Side Group became

the West side group which is still in operation today.



________________________________

From: jaw24hours (jaw24hours@yahoo.com)>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 2:29 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can

openers



I have a copy of High Road to Happiness (late 1940's early 1950's) distributed

by the Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, Iowa. (I have as a HTM file & PDF.)



Hello, yes I'm very interested in this pamphlet. I have a copy of the Brighter

Side news letter from 1946. I would share, if interested.

Please e-mail me at



jaw24hours@yahoo.com

(jaw24hours at yahoo.com)



Thanks.


0 -1 0 0
8168 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/1/2012 2:54:00 PM


http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=72971769



Henry G "Hank" Parkhurst


0 -1 0 0
8169 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: AA Today AA Today 2/1/2012 3:15:00 PM


With patience, you can obtain a copy off of eBay. They are offered

every so often.



Tommy H in Danville



At 17:29 1/31/2012, donaldl.mansell wrote:



>In "As Bill Sees It" the description says that the quotes come from

>Grapevine and individual letters and "AA Today". I've searched but

>came up empty when looking for "AA Today". Any suggestions?

>Thank you.



- - - -

>

>NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR G.C.

>

>http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5579

>

>AA Today: a special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating

>the 25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous (copyright 1960, 1988)


0 -1 0 0
8171 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: AA Today AA Today 2/1/2012 4:28:00 PM


PBA Galleries, Auctioneers and Appraisers

133 Kearny Street, San Francisco, CA 94108

http://www.pbagalleries.com/search/item118528.php?&PHPSESSID=eeb941



Heading: (Alcoholics Anonymous)

Author: [Wilson, William (Bill W.)]

Title: AA Today: A special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating the

25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous

Place: New York

Publisher: AA Grapevine / Cornwall Press

Date: 1960



Sale Date 08/15/2002

Price realized $ 920



Description:

111 pp. Illustrated with drawings, comics and photographs throughout. (4to)

11x8½, light blue cloth, lettered in black and white. First Edition, First

Printing.

Inscribed by the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous William "Bill W." Wilson in

the year of publication on front free endpaper: "Dear Sharin Richards - With

thus all the thanks...for your wonderful help! Devotedly, Bill Wilson, NY,

8/30/60." Includes two written contributions by Bill Wilson, also an essay "Man

and Reality" by Aldous Huxley. No dust jacket, as issued.


0 -1 0 0
8172 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: AA Today AA Today 2/1/2012 11:42:00 PM


A.A. TODAY -- The AA Grapevine published this hard bound book especially for the

1960 International Convention and AA's 25th anniversary. This was the very first

book published by the Grapevine. In the 1st printing, 30,000 were printed and

12,000 were sold by advanced sales. The hard bound book went through 3 printings

and the last one sold out in 1964. The 1979 General Service Conference approved

reprinting this book and in 1980 was back in print in paper back form. I am not

sure when they stopped printing this booklet, but I believe it was in the late

1990's. (The Grapevine could not determine when they stopped selling this book)



If you can get your hands on a June 1960 AA Grapevine magazine, you will find it

has all of the same articles as the book. You can read these articles in the

on-line AA Grapevine Digital Archives.



Hope this helps



Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
8173 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews Re: First AA meeting in London, England 1948 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 2/3/2012 3:11:00 AM


Re posting 8160: Grace O. was the wife of Fulton Oursler, author and editor, who

was an Oxford grouper and served as member of the Alcoholic Foundation and the

Grapevine editorial board.



- - - -



Message #8160

From: "dorothy.banks97" ullathorne@toucansurf.com>

(ullathorne at toucansurf.com)

First AA meeting in London, England 1948



On 31st March the first recorded meeting was held in Room 202 of the Dorchester

Hotel, London, at the invitation of Grace O, a visiting American member who had

previously met Canadian Bob in a London Dean St restaurant. The Dorchester

meeting comprised, Grace, Bob B, Chris L B, Vernon W (an American serviceman),

Norman Rees-Watkins (S Croydon), Pat F (London), Ward Williams (American).

Canadian Bob was made Group Secretary.



Canadian Bob recalls the meeting,"It was Grace O. who really triggered off the

inception of AA in England. She had written to me before she and her husband

embarked at New York on one of the Queens.



Can anyone there at history lovers update on the happy fate of the usa members

who attended please?


0 -1 0 0
8174 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? 2/3/2012 5:30:00 AM


The cover of "Alcohol, Addiction and Christian Ethics"; Christopher C. H. Cook;

Cambridge University Press; 2006. shows a picture from the Temperance Examiner

(November 1, 1839) in which a man is being held by each arm by a drunk, who

wants him to go to the pub, and Tee-totaller, pulling him in the opposite

direction. The picture is reproduced inside the book with the caption:



"Which way shall I turn me?" or Ruin and Salvation.



Old Fuddler: Come along, Charley, my boy; come along! Only one glass. A short

life but a merry one, that's my ticket.

Charles: Well, you're a good natured fellow, tho' you've ruined yourself by

drinking. I was thinking about abstaining; but surely one glass won't hurt me!

Tee-totaller: Don't listen to him, my dear Charles. You see what drinking has

done for him. If you take one glass you won't know when to stop. You promised to

go to our meeting. Come and learn the blessings of Total Abstinence.



Over 170 years ago Tee-totaller knew that it was the first drink that did the

damage - so, don't drink and go to meetings!



BTW what meetings would they be?



_____________________________________



TO SEE A PICTURE OF THE COVER (AND SOME SHORT REVIEWS OF THE BOOK) SEE:



http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/192/4/316.2.full



http://www.dur.ac.uk/spirituality.health/?page_id=53



http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/alcohol-addiction-and-christian-ethics-christoph\

er-c-h-cook/1100955223?ean=9780521091343&itm=1&usri=christopher+cook%2c+alcohol%\

2c+addiction+and+christian+ethics



0 -1 0 0
8175 Matt Dingle Matt Dingle Re: Tom Powers Tom Powers 2/3/2012 7:17:00 AM


The address is http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org and Tom P. Sr.'s obit as

follows:



Thomas E. Powers

Founder East Ridge, 93

Thomas E. Powers of Hankins, the founder with his son, Tom Powers Jr., of East

Ridge in Hankins, died Wednesday, April 27, 2005, at his home. He was 93 years

of age.

The son of the late Thomas Francis and Katherine Votruba Powers, he was born

June 7, 1911, in Chadron, Neb.

East Ridge is a recovery center for people with all kinds of addictions. During

his business career he worked as a commercial artist, radio and television

program director, advertising and marketing executive, author, editor and

publisher. Since 1964 he was chairman and general supervisor of all the

businesses and projects of East Ridge.

Mr. Powers is survived by his wife, Meredith Powers, at home; a son, Thomas R.

Powers; four daughters, Katherine Curtis, Clare Renzulli, Joan Stein and Rachel

Dingle; 16 grandchildren; and eight great-grandchildren.

Private funeral services will be held Friday at the East Ridge Chapel.

Graveside services and burial will be made in the Callicoon Cemetery.


0 -1 0 0
8176 Cindy Miller Cindy Miller Re: First AA meeting in London, England 1948 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 2/5/2012 3:33:00 PM


The walls of the 4021 Clubhouse (cs. 1946) have many framed re-prints

of pages from Jim Burwell's scrapbook.



On one of these pages is a printed Christmas card where Jim had

written: "Our Lone England Member"



It is signed :

Dorothy Hopkinson-Evans

68 Conaugh Rd.

London, W14



and says Christmas 1945 at the top.



-- Cindy Miller

Philadelphia, PA

USA


0 -1 0 0
8177 jax760 jax760 Re: Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery 2/6/2012 1:01:00 PM


I spotted this several years ago and never knew that anyone had previously

discussed it. I never brought it up because I thought it to be of little

consequence. However, I agree the document is a forgery as both hand written

phrases "always remember it" and Dr Bob's signature are perfectly super imposed

from two different letters written by Dr. Bob to Barry Collins in 1944 and

1946.I do have copies of the letters as well as the prescription pad "forgery."



Of course this type of thing should never be condoned as it distorts AA history.



Thanks for bringing this up and the opportunity to respond.



God Bless



John Barton



______________________________________________



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

"pamelafro88" wrote:

>

> This is an old thread, but has this been authenticated/discounted yet? The

link to which the thread refers is no longer available

> Pam F

>

> - - - -

>

> From: Azor521@... (Azor521 at aol.com)

> Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm

> Subject: Re: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others

>

> Dr. Bob wrote this prescription --

> 1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others:

>

> http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html

>

> - - - -

>

> Message #3113

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3113

>

> > The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a

prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the

bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top.

> >

> > The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the

handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have

been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed

on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed

pretty convincing to me.

> >

> > But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in

the group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the

prescription?


0 -1 0 0
8178 john wikelius john wikelius Re: AA Today AA Today 2/6/2012 4:29:00 PM


1st ptg hardcover 1960

2d ptg hardcover 1960

3d ptg hardcover 1960

4th ptg sc 1979

5th ptg sc 1981

6th ptg sc 1988

7th ptg sc 1990

8th ptg sc 1994


0 -1 0 0
8179 B B No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 10:57:00 AM


Friends,



Having read some of the Hartigan book on Bill W for a second time, I am

searching to verify some of his information. Specifically, in the

section/chapter titled "The Other Woman" he talks about Helen Wynn. In part of

this chapter he mentions that Bill secured her a job at the AA grapevine, and

she rose to the position of Editor of AA Grapevine. I find this hard to believe

on the surface as she had no qualifications in the print media industry. He

further states that she left the grapevine in 1962. I emailed the Grapevine and

asked for a list of all editors of the magazine since its inception, and

received a list from the office manager. No Helen Wynn. However, after looking

more closely at the list, there was a time gap, the year 1961. This would

possibly coincide with Helen's being in the position, if it were true. I

re-queried, and was told that possibly the managing editor was doing the job at

the time. I re-re-queried and asked for that persons name so as to be able to

complete the timeline...The last email was "Unfortunately, I cannot find any

information on that gap...sorry." Now it seems very unusual that no information

would exist from the 60's regarding who was running our meeting in print. I

sense some attempt to erase some particularly uncomfortable, to some, piece of

our history. Am i paranoid? Certainly those of us with an interest and knowledge

of AA history know of Helen's existence and role in Bills life. Does anyone have

any grapevine editor information from this time period? Any thoughts about the

absense of information, at least according to the grapevine? Thanks all.


0 -1 0 0
8180 pamelafro88 pamelafro88 Re: AA Today AA Today 2/7/2012 6:17:00 AM


GSO in New York has a series of "AA Today"in their library - have used them for

research in situ.


0 -1 0 0
8181 Doc G Doc G Jimmy Hodges passed away Friday, February 3, 2012 Jimmy Hodges passed away Friday, February 3, 2012 2/7/2012 1:07:00 AM


Hi All



As many of know Jimmy Hodges passed away peacefully at home this past Friday

evening, February 3, 2012. He died with 53 years of sobriety and a legacy of a

huge positive influence in the lives of countless people in recovery.



If you could share this with others by posting at your meetings/Announcements I

appreciate it.



Services for Jimmy Hodges

February 18th - 3pm

AA Raynor

318 E. 71st St

Chicago





ALSO

March 10th 1-3:30pm

Jimmy Hodges Memorial

Mustard Seed

507 W. North Ave.

Chicago



Snacks will be served



**Please bring any photos of JImmy and if you care to share a story about how

Jimmy impacted your life.


0 -1 0 0
8182 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut CD's available: Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax in FtWayne CD's available: Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax in FtWayne 2/10/2012 2:41:00 PM


CD's are now available of these three talks and the follow-up discussion

afterwards.



Two disks for $10 plus $2 shipping = $12 made payable to Alcoholics Anonymous



(this will be used to help defray the cost of the conference and its luncheon,

which were free to all attendees)



Fort Wayne Central Office

2118 Inwood Drive, Suite 112

Ft. Wayne IN 46815



Central Office phone no. 260 471-6262



CONFERENCE FLYER AT:

http://hindsfoot.org/zz-ftwayne-symposium.pdf



**********************************

MESSAGE #8056

Any chance that someone could tape this and share it? I'd love to hear this, but

Ft. Wayne is a bit of a hike from Sierra Vista, Arizona. Peace and serenity,

Bryan

- - - -

MESSAGE #8077

From: "Dolores" dolli@dr-rinecker.de>

Hi, would like to join ´the tapes request as Munich,Germany is far away too.

Take care, Dolores

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net>

I would buy a recording, too. T

- - - -

From: Roy Levin (royslev@yahoo.com)>

Yeah, Glenn, I'd love to be there. I saw another responder ask if you're taping

it and making recordings available. I'd like to ditto that request. Regards, Roy

L.

- - - -

From: "John French" (johnff@gmail.com) >

Ditto on the taping -- Costa Rica is even further than Arizona from the hoosier

state! John French

**********************************



ORIGINAL MESSAGE #8063



Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax speaking on January 14, 2012



10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. -- Fort Wayne, Indiana



Tradition 3: The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop

drinking



============

The speakers:

MEL B. (Toledo, Ohio), co-author of Pass It On, the biography of Bill Wilson,

plus numerous other books on AA history and spirituality



GLENN CHESNUT (South Bend, Indiana), Professor Emeritus of History and Religious

Studies at Indiana University, the creator of hindsfoot.com



Dr. WYATT MULLINAX (Fort Wayne, Indiana), Commission for a Drug Free Indiana,

author of the Cognitive Skill Training program used by the Indiana Department of

Correction in its facilities, including Substance Abuse Treatment and

Pre-Release/Transition Programming

============

Questions? Need more information call:

Ray M. (260) 804-6661 or Andy D. (260) 579-0770

**********************************


0 -1 0 0
8183 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 2/11/2012 3:27:00 AM


Another piece of the puzzle that may not fit -



Nancy O. replaced the biography she had written about Hank P. with one written

by Mike O., DeBary, FL -



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/75



This bio retells the June 1942 confrontation in Cleveland - "The committee's CPA

carefully examined the audit, read it aloud, pronounced it accurate beyond

question, and thus completely exonerated Bill." -



Nancy's bio of Hank P contained



"Hank had been in charge of Works Publishing's finances, and when called on to

make an accounting, he was unable to produce any records to indicate where the

money had gone. Apparently there was no clear line drawn between Honor Dealers,

Works Publishing, and Alcoholic Foundation expenses, or even between expenses

Hank incurred in conjunction with his Works Publishing activities and his

personal expenses.



When he was confronted with this at a stockholders' meeting, he became very

resentful and began inventing stories about his office being robbed and his

records disappearing. It was at this meeting that Dr. Silkworth saw signs of

paranoia in Hank and soon warned Bill that he might become dangerous.



Some blurring of the financial picture was inevitable when it came to Ruth Hock,

who was simultaneously working for Honor Dealers, Works Publishing, and the

Alcoholic Foundation, which were all headquartered in the same office. "



If there were no records in NY ["No clear line drawn between Honor Dealers,

Works Publishing, and Alcoholic Foundation expenses..."], then how could the

"Cleveland committee's CPA ... pronounced it accurate beyond question" -



And more to the point, finding where the money came from to repay any/all of the

loans/donations if indeed any/all of it was repaid won't be easy -



Larry

(410) 802-3099

Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com


0 -1 0 0
8184 Laurence Holbrook Laurence Holbrook Re: Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery 2/7/2012 6:00:00 AM


From Laurence Holbrook, Clyde G., and gadgetsdad



- - - -



From: "Laurence Holbrook" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>

(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)



I could find no reference to that expression (Trust God, clean house, help

others) in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, Pass It On, As Bill Sees It,

the Akron pamphlet nor the Grapevine Archive prior to 1970 -



Mitchell K reported in "How It Worked", The Story of Clarence H. Snyder

that, "Doc told him [Clarence Snyder] the most important things in life were

to, 'Trust God, clean house and help others.'" (pp 71) -



Also on pp 211, "Clarence summarized to the author [Mitchell K] his view of

the difference between New York and Mid-West A.A. Clarence felt that the

approach in Ohio was, "Trust God, Clean House, and Help Others." He felt

that the approach in New York was, "Don't Drink and Go To Meetings."*



Considering Clarence's allegations, it's odd that the expression is not

mentiond in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers nor Ed Webster's "Little Red

Book" either -



The complete expression is absent from AA - Helping others is mentioned

several times with slight variations, notably on pp 97, "Helping others is

the foundation stone of your recovery." - the rest of the expression can be

found in AA on the next page (pp 98), "The only condition is that he trust

in God and clean house." -



It was passed to me from my sponsor (circa 2001) and is commonly accepted in

the Baltimore area as a summary of the program, although I don't recall the

expression ever being attributed to Dr. Bob -



*[As an aside, BryLin Psychiatric Hospital in Buffalo, New York offered an

inpatient detox/treatment program called Rush Hall (approx 1976-1988), named

for Benjamin Rush - I recall a prominently displayed banner "DDAGTM" in

1981]



Larry Holbrook

(410) 802-3099



- - - -



From: "CloydG" cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>

(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)



I would like to point out that they did write: "Burn the idea into the

consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only

requirement is that he trust in God and clean house." Which just happens to be

written in the Chapter, "Working with others". Who authored this would be the

question I have for the group!



In love and service, Clyde G



- - - -



From: gadgetsdad (gadgetsdad@yahoo.com)>

(gadgetsdad at yahoo.com)



The sad thing is that forgeries and reinactments fly through the fellowship as a

whole faster than fact.


0 -1 0 0
8185 brian koch brian koch Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/7/2012 7:06:00 AM


A well intentioned, but misinformed person posted this on Find-A-Grave as Hank

P's resting place because it made the most sense at to where he would be buried.

He is not. I contacted the church who confirmed he is not buried here. He was

cremated, so there is always the chance he is sitting on someone's mantle

somewhere or scattered over something or someplace. Still working on it as far

as Mercer count's other cemeteries. I will seek to have this Find-A-Grave

removed. Thanks for the assist tho.



Brian Koch



- - - -



On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, (Baileygc23@aol.com) discovered a claim on the Find-A-Grave

website that Hank Parkhurst's grave had now been located:



http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=72971769



Henry G "Hank" Parkhurst


0 -1 0 0
8186 B B Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/9/2012 7:25:00 AM


From john wikelius, Stephen Gentile, and Brian Koch



ONE REFERENCE IN THE GRAPEVINE TO "HELEN W."

AS MANAGING EDITOR



- - - -



From: john wikelius (justjohn1431946@yahoo.com)>

(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)



From the December 1961 Grapevine. Page 46. "We hastily add that the whole deal

was cooked up between him (story on page 3) and Managing Editor Helen W.,

because one thing we want to avoid around here is nepotism, which is defined as

"showing favoritism to relatives".



- - - -



From: Stephen Gentile (sagentile@hotmail.com)>

(sagentile at hotmail.com)



Hi Brian,



I did a search on the aagrapevine.org in the Digital archive area for Helen,

because Wynn wouldn't be searchable as to Anonymity in the magazine, and came up

with result number 35 as listed here:



December 1961 Grapevine article



P. S. From the Editor

We might as well tell you right off the bat that the article beginning on page 3

was written by our son. We hastily add that the whole deal was cooked up between

him and Managing Editor Helen W., because one thing we want to avoid around here

is nepotism, which is defined as "showing favoritism to relatives."



Steve G

in New Jersey



- - - -



From: "B" (kochbrian@hotmail.com) >

(kochbrian at hotmail.com)



I followed a snippet given to me by a friend and found reference to

Helen W as the managing editor in a December 1961 issue of the GV. As follows:



December 1961 Vol. 18 No. 7P. S. From the Editor We might as well tell you right

off the bat that the article beginning on page 3 was written by our son. We

hastily add that the whole deal was cooked up between him and Managing Editor

Helen W., because one thing we want to avoid around here is nepotism, which is

defined as "showing favoritism to relatives." It must be made clear, too, that

our son's mother--our first and only wife, a member of Al-Anon--must be given

full credit for keeping this boy (then about twelve) on an even keel when the

family ties were threatened by what she charitably called our "over-drinking."

The things active alcoholics do to their families are inhuman and cruel,

especially to frightened and bewildered youngsters. It is comforting to know

that, in this case, one boy's life was not twisted and warped; but only because

this drunk's loyal gal had love, wisdom, courage, patience, understanding and

deep faith. Like our son and our wife, we are looking forward to a seventh sober

Christmas with our family, who are no longer tense and fearful of what tomorrow

may bring. No diversion could keep us from attending that regular Monday night

open meeting (which this year will take place Christmas night) and hearing the

laughter as the group's "unlikely-looking Santa Claus" distributes from a

laundry bag the amusing junk we all contribute to the party. And a Merry

Christmas to you, too.



Helen W mentioned as Managing Editor right here in an issue of the

grapevine...hmmmmm....



--- In (AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com), "B" wrote:

>

> Friends,

>

> Having read some of the Hartigan book on Bill W for a second time, I am

searching to verify some of his information. Specifically, in the

section/chapter titled "The Other Woman" he talks about Helen Wynn. In part of

this chapter he mentions that Bill secured her a job at the AA grapevine, and

she rose to the position of Editor of AA Grapevine. I find this hard to believe

on the surface as she had no qualifications in the print media industry. He

further states that she left the grapevine in 1962. I emailed the Grapevine and

asked for a list of all editors of the magazine since its inception, and

received a list from the office manager. No Helen Wynn. However, after looking

more closely at the list, there was a time gap, the year 1961. This would

possibly coincide with Helen's being in the position, if it were true. I

re-queried, and was told that possibly the managing editor was doing the job at

the time. I re-re-queried and asked for that persons name so as to be able to

complete the timeline...The last email was "Unfortunately, I cannot find any

information on that gap...sorry." Now it seems very unusual that no information

would exist from the 60's regarding who was running our meeting in print. I

sense some attempt to erase some particularly uncomfortable, to some, piece of

our history. Am i paranoid? Certainly those of us with an interest and knowledge

of AA history know of Helen's existence and role in Bills life. Does anyone have

any grapevine editor information from this time period? Any thoughts about the

absense of information, at least according to the grapevine? Thanks all.


0 -1 0 0
8187 James Blair James Blair Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 3:00:00 PM


B wrote: "Does anyone have any Grapevine editor information from this time

period? Any thoughts about the absence of information, at least according to the

Grapevine? Thanks all."



Up until 1962 the editors of the GV were people who held another paid

position within the AA service structure thus relieving the GV of the salary

burden.



Jim



P.S. Bob P's unpublished manuscript on The History of AA devotes an entire

chapter to the Grapevine and the name of Helen Wynn does not appear in it.


0 -1 0 0
8188 ricktompkins ricktompkins RE: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 3:41:00 PM


Helen, placed in Bill's codicil Will as a beneficiary around 1962, would have

known him for more than a few years to earn that status, wouldn't you think?



She may have been a staffer only; the Gv Office keeps 4 or 5 today, and Helen

could have been a simple clerk, in its circulation department, etc. before then.



What's important to my understanding is that she was a divorced mother who lived

nearby to Bill and Lois' home, was available to him within a short distance, and

was part of the office pool in contact with Bill on a regular basis. Honestly,

either Bill or Helen waived their individual "off limits" status for a romantic

relationship.



Helen, Bill's "Other Woman," was perhaps the muse that Lois was not. It was a

long affair, and Bill and Lois eventually reconciled to

staying together.



Helen's son is attributed with providing Bill with words for

his last talk, the "thank you for your lives" quote, so the ongoing

Wilson + Wynn relationship may have continued platonically.



My two cents,



Rick, Illinois


0 -1 0 0
8189 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 11:53:00 PM


The General Service Conference Final Reports show Helen Wynn listed as a

Grapevine staff member, but never as editor. She was shown on the reports for

1957 - 1961. The 1959,1960 and 1961 reports show her on the Editorial Staff

list.



Hope this helps a little



Charles from Wisconsin



*********************************************

1955 Conference Report

A .A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS

Sidney Allen, Secretary-Treasurer

Don Goddard, Chairman-Editor

J. Seegar Heavilin

Tom 0 ' Brien, Jr .

Sigurd P . Sandmore



STAFF

Louise Shonts

Katherine Swentzel

Sarah Thompson

*********************************************

1956 Conference Report

A.A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS

Russell Clancy, Secretary-Treasurer

Don Goddard, Chairman-Editor

J. Seegar Heavilin

Tom O'Brien, Jr., Vice-Chairman

Sigurd P. Sandmore



STAFF

Louise Shonts, Ass't. to Ed.

Katherine Swentzel

Sarah Thompson

*********************************************

1957 Conference Report

A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS

Russell Clancy, Secretary-Treasurer

Don Goddard, Chairman-Editor

J. Seegar Heavilin

Tom O'Brien, Jr., Vice-Chairman

Sigurd P. Gandmore



STAFF

Louise Shonts, Ass't. to Editor

Katherine Swentzel

Sarah Thompson

Helen Wynn

*********************************************

1958 Conference Report

A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS

Russell Clancy, Via President

Joe Flynn , President-Editor

Tom O'Brien, Jr., Treasurer

Louise Shonts

Alfred Steckman

Richard A. Stevens, Chairman

Katharine Swentzel (D'ced)



STAFF

Louise Shonts

Katharine Swentzel

Sarah Thompson

Helen Wynn

Doris Holmer

*********************************************

1959 Conference Report

A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS

Joseph J. Flym, Editor

Robert MacDevitt, Treasurer

Russell Clancy, Vice-chairman

Louise S. Shonts

Alfred Steckman

Richard A. Stevens, Chairman



STAFF(Editorial)

Louise S. Shonts

Sarah Thompson

Helen Wynn



(Circulation)

Doris Holmes

*********************************************

1960 Conference Report

AA GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS

Robert MacDevitt. Treasurer

Louise Shouts

Alfred Stedrman

Richard A. Stevens, Chairman

Gurney Williams, Editor



STAFF (Editorial)

Louise Shouts

Sarah Thompson

Helen Wynn

*********************************************

1961 Conference Report

AA. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS

Robert MacDevitt. Treasurer

Helen Wynn

Alfred Stedrman

Richard A. Stevens, Chairman

Gurney Williams, Editor

Max Wylie

Mary Benuon



STAFF (Editorial)

Lee Bcckwith

Helen Wynn

*********************************************

1962 Conference Report

A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS

Jerome Ellison, Editor-Publisher

Mary Bernson

Don Goddard

Austin MacCormick

Robert MacDevitt, Treasurer

Richard A. Stevens, Chairman

Max Wylie



STAFF (Editorial)

Lee Beckwith

Paula Carpenter

*********************************************


0 -1 0 0
8190 Matt Dingle Matt Dingle Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 4:48:00 PM


B,

Helen Wynn did run the Grapevine. I think Jerry Ellison came after her. Sometime

(probably after that) Tom White ran it. I don't have the exact dates, though.

Matt


0 -1 0 0
8191 Fritz Fritz pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for 2/8/2012 7:03:00 PM


Searching for documented proof of the company name that Robert H. Smith worked

for when he left Dartmouth. Verifiable history, not hearsay information or

opinion is required for my purpose. Please help if possible.



Grateful for this B4 me,

Fritz689



- - - -



A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: in pages 172-173 of the Big Book, Dr. Bob says



"After high school came four years in one of the best colleges in the country

[Dartmouth] where drinking seemed to be a major extra-curricular activity .... I

was graduated "summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity, but not

in the eyes of the Dean [in 1902]. The next three years I spent in Boston,

Chicago, and Montreal in the employ of a large manufacturing concern, selling

railway supplies, gas engines of all sorts, and many other items of heavy

hardware. During these years, I drank as much as my purse permitted, still

without paying too great a penalty .... My next move was to take up the study of

medicine, entering one of the largest universities in the country [the

University of Michigan in Fall 1905]."



TO CONTINUE THE STORY:

(taking the dates and details here from Arthur S's Narrative Timeline of AA

History at

http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/1881_1904.html )



In Fall 1907, Dr Bob was forced to leave the University of Michigan due to his

drinking. He transferred as a junior to Rush Medical College near Chicago. In

1910 Dr Bob received his medical degree from Rush and then obtained a 2-year

internship at City Hospital in Akron, Ohio.


0 -1 0 0
8192 Frank in LA Frank in LA Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor 2/7/2012 4:01:00 PM


Bill Wilson tells a story somewhere about having dinner with a doctor whose

views could be described as basically atheistic. Bill related to the dinner

party the story of his spectacular spiritual experience, and the doctor offered

an alternate explanation.



Bill got quite heated up and lectured the good doctor for a fair part of the

evening.



Years later, Bill spoke to the doctor's wife. Her husband had just died, after a

protracted and painful illness which he had kept mainly to himself, not wanting

to burden those around him.



He was a man of great service, and kindness, this atheist doctor. And

forbearance it would seem -- as he patiently let Bill hold forth that night

without any counterargument.



Bill ended this story by recognizing that the doctor was "a man of great

spiritual worth." And Bill said that he had to admit that "my own spiritual

awakening had given me a built-in faith in God .... but I had been neither

humble nor wise. Boasting of my faith, I had forgotten my ideals. Pride and

irresponsibility had taken their place."



Can someone please point me to the source of this piece? It's been years since I

read it, and I can't seem to find it again. Thank you.



_________________________________________



FROM THE MODERATOR: HERE IS THE FULL ORIGINAL ARTICLE



The Dilemma of No Faith

by Bill Wilson, AA Grapevine, April 1961



The phrase "God As We Understand Him" is perhaps the most important expression

to be found in our whole AA vocabulary. Within the compass of these five

significant words there can be included every kind and degree of faith, together

with the positive assurance that each of us may choose his own. Scarcely less

valuable to us are those supplemental expressions - "A Higher Power" and "A

Power Greater Than Ourselves." For all who deny, or seriously doubt a deity,

these frame an open door over whose threshold the unbeliever can take his first

easy step into a reality hitherto unknown to him - the realm of faith.



In AA such breakthroughs are everyday events. They are all the more remarkable

when we reflect that a working faith had once seemed an impossibility of the

first magnitude to perhaps half of our present membership of three hundred

thousand. To all these doubters has come the great discovery that as soon as

they could cast their main dependence upon a "higher power" - even upon their

own AA groups - they had turned that blind corner which had always kept the open

highway from their view. From this time on - assuming they tried hard to

practice the rest of the AA program with a relaxed and open mind - an ever

deepening and broadening faith, a veritable gift, had invariably put in its

sometimes unexpected and often mysterious appearance.



We much regret that these facts of AA life are not understood by the legion of

alcoholics in the world around us. Any number of them are bedeviled by the dire

conviction that if ever they go near AA they will be pressured to conform to

some particular brand of faith or theology. They just don't realize that faith

is never a necessity for AA membership; that sobriety can be achieved with an

easily acceptable minimum of it; and that our concepts of a higher power and God

as we understand Him afford everyone a nearly unlimited choice of spiritual

belief and action.



How to transmit this good news is one of our most challenging problems in

communication, for which there may be no fast or sweeping answer. Perhaps our

public information services could begin to emphasize this all-important aspect

of AA more heavily. And within our own ranks we might well develop a more

sympathetic awareness of the acute plight of these really isolated and desperate

sufferers. In their aid we can settle for no less than the best possible

attitude and the most ingenious action that we can muster.



We can also take a fresh look at the problem of "no faith" as it exists right on

our own doorstep. Though three hundred thousand did recover in the last

twenty-five years, maybe half a million more have walked into our midst, and

then out again. No doubt some were too sick to make even a start. Others

couldn't or wouldn't admit their alcoholism. Still others couldn't face up to

their underlying personality defects. Numbers departed for still other reasons.



Yet we can't well content ourselves with the view that all these recovery

failures were entirely the fault of the newcomers themselves. Perhaps a great

many didn't receive the kind and amount of sponsorship they so sorely needed. We

didn't communicate when we might have done so. So we AA's failed them. Perhaps

more often than we think, we still make no contact at depth with those suffering

the dilemma of no faith.



Certainly none are more sensitive to spiritual cocksureness, pride and

aggression than they are. I'm sure this is something we too often forget. In

AA's first years I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of

unconscious arrogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody.

Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it

was damaging - perhaps fatally so - to numbers of non-believers. Of course this

sort of thing isn't confined to Twelfth Step work. It is very apt to leak out

into our relationships with everybody. Even now, I catch myself chanting that

same old barrier-building refrain, "Do as I do, believe as I do - or else!"



Here's a recent example of the high cost of spiritual pride. A very tough-minded

prospect was taken to his first AA meeting. The first speaker majored on his own

drinking pattern. The prospect seemed impressed. The next two speakers (or maybe

lecturers) each themed their talks on "God as I understand Him." This could have

been good, too, but it certainly wasn't. The trouble was their attitude, the way

they presented their experience. They did ooze arrogance. In fact, the final

speaker got far overboard on some of his personal theological convictions. With

perfect fidelity, both were repeating my performance of years before. Quite

unspoken, yet implicit in everything they said, was the same idea - "Folks,

listen to us. We have the only true brand of AA - and you'd better get it!"



The new prospect said he'd had it - and he had. His sponsor protested that this

wasn't real AA. But it was too late; nobody could touch him after that. He also

had a first class alibi for yet another bender. When last heard from, an early

appointment with the undertaker seemed probable.



Fortunately, such rank aggression in the name of spirituality isn't often seen

nowadays. Yet this sorry and unusual episode can be turned to good account. We

can ask ourselves whether, in less obvious but nevertheless destructive forms,

we are not more subject to fits of spiritual pride than we had supposed. If

constantly worked at, I'm sure that no kind of self-survey could be more

beneficial. Nothing could more surely increase our communication with each other

and with God.



Many years ago a so-called "unbeliever" brought me to see this very clearly. He

was an M.D. and a fine one. I met him and his wife Mary at the home of a friend

in a midwestern city. It was purely a social evening. Our fellowship of

alcoholics was my sole topic and I pretty much monopolized the conversation.

Nevertheless, the doctor and his lady seemed truly interested and he asked many

questions. But one of them made me suspect that he was an agnostic, or maybe an

atheist.



This promptly triggered me, and I set out to convert him, then and there. Deadly

serious, I actually bragged about my spectacular spiritual experience of the

year before. The doctor mildly wondered if that experience might not be

something other than I thought it was. This hit me hard, and I was downright

rude. There had been no real provocation; the doctor was uniformly courteous,

good humored and even respectful. Not a little wistfully, he said he often

wished he had a firm faith, too. But plainly enough, I had convinced him of

nothing.



Three years later I revisited my midwestern friend. Mary, the doctor's wife,

came by for a call and I learned that he had died the week before. Much

affected, she began to speak of him.



His was a noted Boston family, and he'd been Harvard educated. A brilliant

student, he might have gone on to fame in his profession. He could have enjoyed

a wealthy practice and a social life among old friends. Instead, he had insisted

on being a company doctor in what was a strife-torn industrial town. When Mary

had sometimes asked why they didn't go back to Boston, he would take her hand

and say, "Maybe you are right, but I can't bring myself to leave. I think the

people at the company really need me."



Mary then recalled that she had never known her husband to complain seriously

about anything, or to criticize anyone bitterly. Though he appeared to be

perfectly well, the doctor had slowed down in his last five years. When Mary

prodded him to go out evenings, or tried to get him to the office on time, he

always came up with a plausible and good-natured excuse. Not until his sudden

last illness did she know what all this while he had carried about a heart

condition that could have done him in at any moment. Except for a single doctor

on his own staff, no one had an inkling. When she reproached him about this, he

simply said, "Well, I could see no good in causing people to worry about me -

especially you, my dear."



This was the story of a man of great spiritual worth. The hallmarks were plain

to be seen: humor and patience, gentleness and courage, humility and dedication,

unselfishness and love - a demonstration I might never come near to making

myself. This was the man I had chided and patronized. This was the "unbeliever"

I had presumed to instruct!



Mary told us this story more than twenty years ago. Then, for the first time, it

burst in upon me how very dead faith can be - when minus responsibility. The

doctor had an unwavering belief in his ideals. But he also practiced humility,

wisdom and responsibility. Hence his superb demonstration.



My own spiritual awakening had given me a built-in faith in God - a gift indeed.

But I had been neither humble nor wise. Boasting of my faith, I had forgotten my

ideals. Pride and irresponsibility had taken their place. By so cutting off my

own light, I had little to offer my fellow alcoholics. At last I saw why many

had gone away - some of them forever.



Therefore, faith is more than our greatest gift; its sharing with others is our

greatest responsibility. So may we of AA continually seek the wisdom and the

willingness by which we may well fulfill that immense trust which the Giver of

all perfect gifts has placed in our hands.


0 -1 0 0
8193 tablemate1987 tablemate1987 Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps 2/11/2012 6:52:00 PM


The set of early AA beginners lessons entitled

"Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps"



We know it has been called the "Detroit pamphlet", the "Washington DC pamphlet,"

and also "The Table Leaders Guide."



Our Washington State history book -- "Our Stories Disclose" -- says that it

arrived here in Seattle in July of 1944 and that Big Pete P. talked the visitor

from back east out of his copy of the "Table Mate" published by the "Paragon

Press of Washington D.C."



We would like to know who changed the name to the "Table Mate"?



If anyone has any info on this or Paragon press? It would be much appreciated.



yis

Michael G.



_______________________________________



THE PAMPHLET DIVIDES THE DISCUSSION OF THE TWELVE STEPS INTO FOUR LESSONS:

1. The Admission http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html

2. The Spiritual Phase http://hindsfoot.org/Detr2.html

3. Inventory and Restitution http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html

4. Active Work http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html



http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html


0 -1 0 0
8194 B B Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/13/2012 7:19:00 AM


This is a list provided by the Grapevine. At first glance, no Helen Wynn. At

subsequent closer glance, no 1961. As i mentioned before the grapevine office

claims no information for this missing year.



Grapevine Editors



Volunteer

Tom Yutzy 1944-1946

Al Steckman 1946-1948

Sig Heavilin April 1952-Jan 1954

Sig Sandmore 1954-1955

Don Goddard 1955-1958 (Chairman and Editor)

Joseph Flynn 1958-1960 (President and Editor)

Gurney Williams April 1963-May 1964 (Editor and Publisher)



Paid

Jerry Ellison Jan 1962-Apr 1963 (Editor and Publisher)

Tom White May 1964-Jul 1967 (part-time)

Jack Morley 1969-May 1978 (Editor)

Paula Carpenter 1968-1976 (Managing Editor)

Retha Gresham May 1978-Oct 1987 (Managing Editor)

Ann Warner 1982-1987 (Editor)

1988-1996 (Executive Editor)

Ames Sweet 1987-1996 (Managing Editor)

1996-2000 (Executive Editor)

Cynthia Keyworth Jan 2001-Dec 2001 (Interim Managing Editor)

Desmond Towey Sep 2001-Jan2004 (Executive Editor)

Charles McGovern Jan 2002-Aug 2004 (Managing Editor)

Robin Bromley Apr 2004-May 2010 (Executive Editor)

Amber Eden Jul 2008-Present (Managing Editor)

Ami Brophy Nov 2010-Present (Executive Editor/Publisher)





--- In (AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com), Matt Dingle wrote:

>

> B,

> Helen Wynn did run the Grapevine. I think Jerry Ellison came after her.

Sometime (probably after that) Tom White ran it. I don't have the exact dates,

though.

> Matt

>


0 -1 0 0
8195 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/12/2012 10:08:00 PM


Hank is also noted on Find-A-Grave as AA # 3 which is also obviously not true.

How did the church confirm Hank is NOT buried there (records check or physical

knowledge) and how was it confirmed he was cremated. Any additional information

from anyone about Hank's remains would be appreciated. I do like the thought of

his "sitting on a mantle" somewhere ...... Stepping Stones, perhaps J



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst





-----Original Message-----

From: brian koch

Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012

Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave



A well intentioned, but misinformed person posted this on Find-A-Grave as Hank

P's resting place because it made the most sense at to where he would be buried.

He is not. I contacted the church who confirmed he is not buried here. He was

cremated, so there is always the chance he is sitting on someone's mantle

somewhere or scattered over something or someplace. Still working on it as far

as Mercer count's other cemeteries. I will seek to have this Find-A-Grave

removed. Thanks for the assist tho.



Brian Koch



- - - -



On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, (Baileygc23@aol.com) discovered a claim on the

Find-A-Grave website that Hank Parkhurst's grave had now been located:



http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=72971769



Henry G "Hank" Parkhurst


0 -1 0 0
8196 joe joe When did the INFORMED group concience phrase appear? When did the INFORMED group concience phrase appear? 2/12/2012 8:16:00 PM


When and where did the term "informed group conscience" first begin to appear in

AA language?



During a Traditions Study it was noted that the long and short form of Tradition

2 reads in part "... a loving God as He may express Himself in our group

conscience".



Sometime in our history, the phrase "INFORMED group conscience" became common in

general service and some group business meetings. I began a search and found the

current pamphlet "The AA Group" on page 28 answers the question, "What is an

Informed Group Conscience?"



I found an article from Box 459 Feb/March 1989 titled, "In A.A.'s Benign

Anarchy" Informed Group Conscience Is Our Ultimate Authority."



The Twelve and Twelve does not used "informed". Once in the context of speaking

about the experience which elder statesmen provide to a group, it says, "This is

the experience which has led us to the conclusion that our group conscience,

well-advised by its elders, will be in the long run wiser than any single

leader." This may have some connection, but a stretch at this point.



I would like to know from those who may have earlier versions of the AA Group

pamphlet, which I believe evolved from a pamphlet of a different title, could

help us learn when and where the term "informed group conscience" first began to

appear in AA language.


0 -1 0 0
8197 sabourin1987 sabourin1987 Re: Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor 2/12/2012 8:08:00 PM


From sabourin1987 and Frank in LA



- - - -



From: "sabourin1987" (km2blv@gmail.com) >

(km2blv at gmail.com)



I have a small booklet, maybe 3x5 inches, entitled "The Best of Bill from the

Grapevine: Faith, Fear, Honesty, Humility, Love" containing five articles on

these subjects, reprinted from the Grapevine. Copyrights dated 1958, 1961, 1962.

The first article in the booklet, entitled "God as We Understand Him" is the

same as the story that the moderator attributes to the April, 1961 Grapevine.



- - - -



From: "Frank in LA" (rul6t2@yahoo.com) >

(rul6t2 at yahoo.com)



Thanks much. Nice to have the whole article again. And wonderful to see that

whatever his faults, Bill also practiced a brand of humility that's really

inspiring. No doubt he had his lapses there too, but he tried, and that means a

lot to me.



Best regards,

Frank


0 -1 0 0
8198 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve S... Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve S... 2/12/2012 2:50:00 PM


Another reference to the Seattle story:



http://www.eskimo.com/~burked/history/tablemat.html



Please note where it says here that the booklet called "The Table Mate" as

currently available in the Seattle area has been considerably expanded, and

contains additional material which was not present in the original Washington

D.C./Detroit pamphlet of the 1940's.


0 -1 0 0
8199 John John Re: pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for 2/12/2012 2:36:00 PM


According to this article about Dr. Bob's father (Walter Perrin Smith), it was

the Fairbanks, Morse Company, Chicago where the young Dr. Bob was working in

1904.



John



==============================

WALTER P. SMITH



http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vermont/71SuccessfulVermontersWalterPSmith.htm\

l




SMITH, WALTER PERRIN, son of John S. and Sophronia M. (Perrin) Smith, was born

in Hardwick, Vermont, November 4, 1841. Mr. Smith fitted for college at Hardwick

academy, and the People's academy at Morrisville, Vermont, and graduated from

the University of Vermont in 1867. He pursued the course at the Law department

of Michigan university and subsequently completed his legal studies with Powers

& Gleed at Morrisville, and was admitted to the bar of Lamoille county in May,

1869. He soon after came to St. Johnsbury and formed a partnership in law with

Hon. Jonathan Ross, which continued until the latter was elected to the bench.

Mr. Smith was state attorney of Caledonia county from 1874 to '76. He has served

as superintendent of schools.



He was elected to the legislature from St. Johnsbury in 1880, and served on the

judiciary and other important committees. In 1882 he was elected judge of

probate of Caledonia county, a position in which he has shown such eminent

fitness that he has continued to receive the unanimous renominations of the

Republican party and successive reelections by the people until the present

time.



Judge Smith has ever been influential in the political and religious life of St.

Johnsbury. He was for several years a director of the Merchants National bank,

is a director of the First National bank, and a trustee and vice-president of

the Passumpsic Savings bank. An able and effective debater, he has frequently

taken the stump during national elections, and delivered addresses on memorial

and other public occasions. He is a member of the North Congregational church.



He married, in 1876, Susan A., daughter of Dr. Perley R. and Louise M.

(Lawrence) Holbrook. They have one son, Robert H. Smith, a graduate of Dartmouth

in the class of 1902, and is now in the employ of the Fairbanks, Morse Company,

Chicago. Mrs. Smith is an active worker in the beneficent and educational

activities of the times, and a member of the state library commission.



Source: Successful Vermonters, William H. Jeffrey, E. Burke, Vermont, The

Historical Publishing Company, 1904, page 98.



Prepared by Tom Dunn August 2005

==============================





A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: in pages 172-173 of the Big Book, Dr. Bob says



"After high school came four years in one of the best colleges in the country

[Dartmouth] where drinking seemed to be a major extra-curricular activity .... I

was graduated "summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity, but not

in the eyes of the Dean [in 1902]. The next three years I spent in Boston,

Chicago, and Montreal in the employ of a large manufacturing concern, selling

railway supplies, gas engines of all sorts, and many other items of heavy

hardware. During these years, I drank as much as my purse permitted, still

without paying too great a penalty .... My next move was to take up the study of

medicine, entering one of the largest universities in the country [the

University of Michigan in Fall 1905]."



TO CONTINUE THE STORY:

(taking the dates and details here from Arthur S's Narrative Timeline

of AA History at

http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/1881_1904.html )



In Fall 1907, Dr Bob was forced to leave the University of Michigan due to his

drinking. He transferred as a junior to Rush Medical College near Chicago. In

1910 Dr Bob received his medical degree from Rush and then obtained a 2-year

internship at City Hospital in Akron, Ohio.


0 -1 0 0
8200 brian koch brian koch Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/13/2012 2:54:00 PM


His obit led to Blackwell Memorial Home, which when contacted, confirmed body

had been sent to Pennington Crematorium. From there the trail dies. I contacted

the church, based on records, which appear to be complete.



Brian



_________________________________________



From: ineedpage63@cox.net

Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012

Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave



Hank is also noted on Find-A-Grave as AA # 3 which is also obviously not true.

How did the church confirm Hank is NOT buried there (records check or physical

knowledge) and how was it confirmed he was cremated. Any additional information

from anyone about Hank's remains would be appreciated. I do like the thought of

his "sitting on a mantle" somewhere ...... Stepping Stones, perhaps



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst



_________________________________________



From: brian koch

Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012

Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave



A well intentioned, but misinformed person posted this on Find-A-Grave as Hank

P's resting place because it made the most sense at to where he would be buried.

He is not. I contacted the church who confirmed he is not buried here. He was

cremated, so there is always the chance he is sitting on someone's mantle

somewhere or scattered over something or someplace. Still working on it as far

as Mercer count's other cemeteries. I will seek to have this Find-A-Grave

removed. Thanks for the assist tho.



Brian Koch


0 -1 0 0
8201 trysh travis trysh travis Re: seeking Jimmy who posted on Hugh Selby seeking Jimmy who posted on Hugh Selby 2/13/2012 2:07:00 PM


On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 9:00 PM, trysh travis (trysh.travis@gmail.com) >wrote:



> I recently came across this posting from several years back, which noted

> then-recent obituaries for the author Hugh Selby, Jr.:

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1780.

>

> It was posted by "jimmy" (dijmo@yahoo.com) > (dijmo at yahoo.com)

>

> I wonder if "Jimmy" still participates in this list and, if so, if he'd be

> willing to contact me? I'd also be interested in anyone else from the LA

> area who knew Selby. The standard academic literature on his career

> completely erases his connection to the program, which helps to explain a

> lot of the nuances in his later writings.

>

> Please contact me off list if you have information on this topic.

>

> Thanks,

> Trysh Travis

> (trysh.travis@gmail.com) (trysh.travis at gmail.com)


0 -1 0 0
8202 Mary Bray Mary Bray Mugs from Henry Parkhurst's porcelain company Mugs from Henry Parkhurst's porcelain company 2/13/2012 1:43:00 PM


I have some mugs that I believe came from Henry Parkhurst's porcelain company

... Does anyone know anything about it? Can't find any info .... Thank you in

advance ...


0 -1 0 0
8203 shakey shakey 1st men's group 1st men's group 2/15/2012 11:25:00 AM


I have a photo of Earl Applease which mentions him as being secretary of the

first men's group. It is in the cd's of my late sponsor Harry the Wino V. who

got sober in Los Angeles Ca. Would any AAHL member know this man and what group

he was secretary? Where was the first official men's group? I imagine that due

to the growth of AA in Cleveland,in the fellowships early years 1940 to 1950,

that is may be there or possibly in LA.I checked the AAHL search engine and

found nothing on Earl or as men's group.



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Going to NAW 1012 Oct 4-7 in Cocoa Beach Fl.

www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com


0 -1 0 0
8204 B B Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 2/15/2012 7:27:00 AM


I have seen some obits for bill and they mention a Miami Florida Hospital. Does

anyone know which hospital it was? Thanks to all my fellow history buffs.


0 -1 0 0
8205 kate.frisby kate.frisby Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's 2/14/2012 3:07:00 AM


Does anyone have a photo of Charlie from the Big Book Study that they could send

to me?



Thanks

Kate



(kate.frisby@yahoo.com)>

(kate.frisby at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
8206 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/13/2012 10:59:00 PM


His obit states "Interment was at the convenience of the family." (See message

#7560 for transcript.) Generally this indicates a cremation.



Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
8207 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 2/15/2012 1:53:00 PM


This is from Stepping Stones.



SAYING FAREWELL



In January 1971, Bill was flown in a private jet to the Miami Heart

Institute in hopes of finding treatment for his severe emphysema. He is said to

have been in good spirits during the flight but much weakened. Bill never

received treatment; he died the day he arrived -- January 24, his and Lois'

wedding anniversary. They had been married 53 years.


0 -1 0 0
8208 Cindy Miller Cindy Miller Re: Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's 2/15/2012 5:12:00 PM


There are about 5 or 6 on Google.



- - - -



On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:07 AM, kate.frisby wrote:



> Does anyone have a photo of Charlie from the Big Book Study that

> they could send to me?

>

> Thanks

> Kate

>

> (kate.frisby@yahoo.com) >

> (kate.frisby at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
8209 brian koch brian koch Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/15/2012 1:24:00 PM


Cremation has been verified. However, sometimes ashes are buried or a memorial

stone is placed somewhere for family and friends to pay respects. Thanks for the

info.



Brian from Pennsylvania



- - - -



From: (cpknapp@yahoo.com)

Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012

Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave



His obit states "Interment was at the convenience of the family." (See message

#7560 for transcript.) Generally this indicates a cremation.



Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
8210 brian koch brian koch Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 2/16/2012 6:49:00 AM


I have contacted the Miami Heart Institute/Mount Sinai Hospital in Miami. They

could not, for confidentiality reasons, reveal if Bill had been a patient there.

I respect that, i guess .... haha.





- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com

Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 13:53:55 -0500

Subject: Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed?



This is from Stepping Stones.



SAYING FAREWELL



In January 1971, Bill was flown in a private jet to the Miami Heart

Institute in hopes of finding treatment for his severe emphysema. He is said to

have been in good spirits during the flight but much weakened. Bill never

received treatment; he died the day he arrived -- January 24, his and Lois'

wedding anniversary. They had been married 53 years.


0 -1 0 0
8211 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Sister Ignatia's program at St. Thomas hospital in 1951 Sister Ignatia's program at St. Thomas hospital in 1951 2/16/2012 2:34:00 PM


AA oldtimer William E. Swegan's article on "Kent State University and Sister

Ignatia" gives a detailed description of Sister Ignatia's alcoholic ward at St.

Thomas Hospital in Akron, as he observed it in 1951:



http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc16.pdf



This is important for AA historians to read, because already by this early

period there were resident psychiatrists at the St. Thomas Hospital to treat any

major psychiatric problems, and they were well beyond the primitive karo syrup

and sauerkraut detoxing methods.



This article is Chapter 16 in Swegan's book The Psychology of Alcoholism, see:

http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kbs2.html

http://hindsfoot.org/kbs3.html



The three most famous types of AA-related early alcoholism treatment programs

were:



1. Sister Ignatia's program, which was strongly spiritually oriented. Although

she attempted to keep the spirituality fairly nonsectarian, there was certainly

an unmistakably Christian flavor to it, and people were encouraged to go pray in

the Catholic chapel across the hall.



2. Swegan's Lackland-Long Beach Model, which he began developing in 1953 in San

Antonio, Texas (after studying with Searcy Whalen and E. M. Jellinek at the Yale

School of Alcohol Studies and spending a year observing Sister Ignatia's program

in Akron). Swegan's treatment philosophy was more in tune with the atheistic

and agnostic wing of AA.



Bill Swegan himself was not a believer in God in any traditional sense, but

worked a program based on the spirituality of devoted love and service to our

fellow human beings. Nevertheless, he also achieved a thoroughly documented

fifty percent success rate, where fifty percent of the military personnel

accepted into his program got sober and stayed sober the first time, with no

relapses.



3. The Minnesota Model, which put the alcoholics in a facility where they were

almost completely isolated from the outside world. It was totally unlike Sister

Ignatia's program (where large numbers of local Akron AA people came to visit

the patients regularly) or Swegan's Lackland program (where he drove his

patients to attend a number of AA meetings every week in the surrounding

civilian community).



Hazelden started out in 1949 as simply a big farmhouse and is still to this day

located on 500 acres of rural midwestern prairie and woods outside Center City,

Minnesota, which itself has a population of only 628. Fiona Dodd remembers how

we could still see wild deer roaming the surrounding land, which was originally

settled by Swedish farmers. (For a photo of the farmhouse, see around the middle

of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/rwcvphot.html )



Over the years, Hazelden came to be guided to greater and greater degree by

psychiatrists, psychologists, psychotherapists, and alcoholism counselors, who

spoke of chemical dependency and moved the program further and further away from

early AA principles. They won control of Hazelden's administration in 1966, and

it became a very different place from the one which was originally started by a

small group of dedicated AA people in 1949 in the big wooden farmhouse on the

prairie.


0 -1 0 0
8212 Laurence Holbrook Laurence Holbrook RE: Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's 2/18/2012 5:24:00 AM


The funeral home has over a dozen photes posted in Charlie's Book of

Memories and they are above 'net average in resolution.



Charles A. Parmley 1929-2011 at the website for the Luginbuel Funeral Homes:

http://www.luginbuel.com/



The URL for Charlie's Memorial Photos is so long, that it may not work if you

just click on it. You may need to copy this out and paste it in your browser:

______________________________________________



http://luginbuelfuneralhome.frontrunnerpro.com/runtime/3060/runtime.php?SiteId=3\

060&NavigatorId=54126&op=tributeFamilyPhotos&viewOpt=dpaneOnly&ItemId=723627&Lin\

kId=282


______________________________________________


0 -1 0 0
8213 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Sgt. Bill Swegan and Jolly West: Lackland-Long Beach Model Sgt. Bill Swegan and Jolly West: Lackland-Long Beach Model 2/18/2012 2:35:00 PM


William E. Swegan and Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West created the earliest version

of the Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment at Lackland Air Force

Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953.



Five years earlier, in 1948, William E. Swegan had started the first officially

sanctioned alcoholism treatment program in the U.S. military, at Mitchel Air

Force Base on Long Island (just outside New York City), with himself as the only

full-time appointed staff member.



http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc01.pdf



Then in 1953, he and famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West teamed up

to form an expanded program at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas.

See Swegan's description of their methods at:



"Lackland: the Fully Developed Treatment Program"

http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc17.pdf



(This is Chapter 17 of Swegan's book The Psychology of Alcoholism -- see

http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html -- this book was originally published in 2003 as

"On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program," by Sgt. Bill

S. with Glenn F. Chesnut, Ph.D.)



50% of the military personnel admitted to their treatment program got sober and

stayed sober the first time through. Others eventually saw the light and got

sober afterwards.



This is important because Swegan represented the atheistic and agnostic wing of

early AA, which practiced a spirituality based on TRULY DEVOTED love and service

to other human beings, but with little or no reference to an external personal

God figure.



This was certainly not an "easier, softer way" -- for most of sixty years, Bill

Swegan devoted most of every waking hour to helping other people in one way or

another. All who have met Bill Swegan know that he was aglow within with a

gentle and all-compassionate love. Think of a Buddhist master who does not

believe in a personal God but does practice a life of total humility and absence

of personal ambition or pridefulness, combined with compassion towards all. I

saw Bill sitting down in the hospitality rooms at AA conventions, and total

strangers repeatedly coming up and suddenly talking with him about their deepest

torments and fears, and then being calmed and reassured, not so much by the

words that he said, as by the love and compassion they could feel shining in

him.



WARNING:

Dr. West's daughter Mary advised me that one should be careful about trusting

everything said about her father which appears on the internet. The wikipedia

article on him gives the same warning, see:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Jolyon_West



This wikipedia article notes that the attacks on Dr. West began "after he

published a textbook in 1980, in which he called Scientology a cult." The

wikipedia article relates how, on one American Psychiatric Association panel on

cults, where every speaker had received a long letter threatening a lawsuit if

Scientology were mentioned, no one mentioned Scientology except West, who was

the last speaker: "I read parts of the letter to the 1,000-plus psychiatrists

and then told any Scientologists in the crowd to pay attention. I said I would

like to advise my colleagues that I consider Scientology a cult and L. Ron

Hubbard a quack and a fake. I wasn't about to let them intimidate me."

(Psychiatric Times, 1991)



Dr. West was in fact the top expert of his era on brain-washing (he was the one

who discovered the vital role which sleep deprivation played in genuine

brain-washing techniques), and one of the most prominent anti-cult campaigners

of that time. This is especially important to note, because West insisted that

Alcoholics Anonymous was absolutely NOT a cult or a brain-washing scheme, and if

anyone was ever qualified to make that judgment, it was him.



==========================================

See West's obituary at

http://www.csj.org/announce/annoucement_archives/2000/westdeath.htm



LOUIS WEST HAS DIED -- A CULT EXPERT AND MEMBER OF AAA's CULTIC STUDIES JOURNAL

EDITORIAL ADVISORY



Los Angeles, Jan 7 (Reuters)



Psychiatrist Louis Jolyon West, an expert on cults, torture and brainwashing who

examined Jack Ruby and Patricia Hearst during their trials, has died at age 74,

associates said on Thursday.



A spokesman for the University of California at Los Angeles, where West was in

charge of the Neuropsychiatric Institute for 20 years before his retirement in

1989, said he died on Saturday of cancer at his home in Los Angeles.



West frequently worked as a court-appointed psychiatrist. After examining Ruby,

the killer of President John F. Kennedy's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, West

concluded Ruby was suffering from ``major mental illness precipitated by the

stress of (his) trial.''



The psychiatrist was also one of four experts who examined newspaper heiress

Patty Hearst, who was kidnapped by the so-called Symbionese Liberation Army and

who later joined its ranks as a bank robber.



The panel found her sane and fit to stand trial, but West wrote that she was

"psychologically damaged as a result of torture by the SLA."



The experts also urged that Hearst receive treatment for her mental illness

before her 1976 trial, but the court ignored the recommendation. "The government

finished the destruction of her life started by an anti-government group," West

said after Hearst was convicted. Her prison sentence was commuted by President

Jimmy Carter in 1979.



A civil rights activist, West was the first white psychiatrist to go to South

Africa to testify on behalf of black prisoners during the apartheid era.



During the Korean War he studied brainwashing and torture. He said at the time

that American prisoners of war had falsely confessed to engaging in germ warfare

because their captors had instilled a sense of guilt in them through solitary

confinement, prolonged sleeplessness and physical abuse, which he called the

classic tools of brainwashing.



In an interview with the Los Angeles Times, West said the behaviour of cult

members and kidnapping victims was driven by the "three 'Ds' - debility, dread

and dependence."



"A prisoner is debilitated by inactivity, by sleep loss, or worse, by physical

harm. He is filled with dread by constant threats of pain or death or harm to

his family. He is rendered completely dependent upon his captors for

information, food, shelter, life," West said.



West, who was born the son of poor Russian Jewish immigrants in Madison,

Wisconsin, is survived by his wife Kathryn, son John and daughters Anne and

Mary.

==========================================





Bill Swegan eventually married Dr. West's daughter Mary Swegan, a marvelously

warm and loving person. There is a photo of Bill at the top of this web page:



http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aapix02.html



And then the second photo down shows both Bill and Mary, standing second and

third from the left.





******************************************

For more background, see Message #8211

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8211



THE THREE MOST FAMOUS TYPES OF AA-RELATED ALCOHOLISM TREATMENT PROGRAMS WERE:



1. Sister Ignatia's program, which was strongly spiritually oriented. Although

she attempted to keep the spirituality fairly nonsectarian, there was certainly

an unmistakably Christian flavor to it, and people were encouraged to go pray in

the Catholic chapel across the hall.



2. Swegan's Lackland-Long Beach Model, which he began developing in 1953 in San

Antonio, Texas (after studying with Searcy Whalen and E. M. Jellinek at the Yale

School of Alcohol Studies and spending a year observing Sister Ignatia's program

in Akron). Swegan's treatment philosophy was more in tune with the atheistic and

agnostic wing of AA.



Bill Swegan himself was not a believer in God in any traditional sense, but

worked a program based on the spirituality of devoted love and service to our

fellow human beings. Nevertheless, he also achieved a thoroughly documented

fifty percent success rate, where fifty percent of the military personnel

accepted into his program got sober and stayed sober the first time, with no

relapses.



3. The Minnesota Model, which put the alcoholics in a facility where they were

almost completely isolated from the outside world. It was totally unlike Sister

Ignatia's program (where large numbers of local Akron AA people came to visit

the patients regularly) or Swegan's Lackland program (where he drove his

patients to attend a number of AA meetings every week in the surrounding

civilian community).



Hazelden started out in 1949 as simply a big farmhouse and is still to this day

located on 500 acres of rural Midwestern prairie and woods outside Center City,

Minnesota, which itself has a population of only 628. Fiona Dodd remembers how

we could still see wild deer roaming the surrounding land, which was originally

settled by Swedish farmers. (For a photo of the farmhouse, see around the middle

of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/rwcvphot.html )



But over the years, Hazelden grew bigger and bigger, and came to be guided to

greater and greater degree by psychiatrists, psychologists, psychotherapists,

and alcoholism counselors, who spoke of chemical dependency and moved the

program further and further away from early AA principles. They won control of

Hazelden's administration in 1966, and it became a very different place from the

one which was originally started by a small group of dedicated AA people in 1949

in the big wooden farmhouse on the prairie.

******************************************


0 -1 0 0
8214 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model 2/18/2012 2:56:00 PM


Chapter 16. Twelfth Stepping the Military

http://hindsfoot.org/help16.pdf



Chapter 17. Alcoholics with Gold Braid

http://hindsfoot.org/help17.pdf



(Taken from Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of

Alcoholism (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html )



The Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment was first developed at

Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953-1961 by William E. Swegan

and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon ("Jolly") West.



In Chapter 16, Nancy Olson describes the further development of this type of

AA-related alcoholism treatment program by psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Zuska and

Navy Commander Dick Jewell at the Long Beach Naval Station in California in the

years 1965 and following. (Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link

between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program.)



Dr. Zuska, although not an alcoholic himself, was beloved at a deep personal

level by several generations of AA people in that part of California because of

all he had done to help alcoholics -- hundreds and hundreds of them owed their

lives to him, and they knew it.



Betty Ford, wife of U.S. President Ford, was sent to the Long Beach treatment

program to get sober, and U.S. President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was

also sent there because of its outstanding record in getting alcoholics sober.



Then Nancy goes on in Chapter 17 to describe the hearings before the U.S. Senate

subcommittee on alcoholism and drug abuse in the U.S. military in 1970. Also

more on Joe Zuska and the Navy alcoholism treatment program which he developed

at Long Beach.


0 -1 0 0
8215 Aalogsdon Aalogsdon Photograph in Saturday Evening Post Photograph in Saturday Evening Post 2/17/2012 12:08:00 PM


I have a copy of a photograph taken in the late 40s by Jef Coffey. On the back

of the photo was marked "SEP, Alcoholics Anon. Des Moines." Subject is picture

of a man in black and white walking up a flight of steps toward a door which

says in large letters, "Welcome AA".



Photo was taken of a meeting place on Locust street in Des Moines Iowa. Need to

know date of Saturday Evening Post where this picture was published. Thanks.


0 -1 0 0
8216 atpeace1989 atpeace1989 Re: AA Today AA Today 2/13/2012 3:31:00 AM


From atpeace, john wikelius, and mrpetesplace



- - - -



From: atpeace1989@yahoo.com> (atpeace1989 at yahoo.com)



A person can still purchase the book in either hard cover or Soft cover if you

can find them. E-Bay occasionally has one for sale. I have found a couple of

them at Estate Sales. Since most Alcoholics attending them are looking for a

first edition they sometimes overlook the other books on the shelf. I have in

the past attempted using the concept that it is referred to in "As Bill Sees It"

four times that the GSO Literature or the Grapevine reprint it again in a soft

cover. But as with most things in AA it takes much time to do something that

seems to make sense. Everyone is so wrapped in fear of doing something that

nothing happens.



- - - -



From: john wikelius (justjohn1431946@yahoo.com) >

(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)



pamelafro@bigfoot.com> wrote //GSO in New York has a series of "AA Today" in

their library - have used them for research in situ.//



John replies: I have several copies myself. They are very informative.



- - - -



From: "mrpetesplace" peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)



I'm going to try and find a soft cover this week and scan it for upload. I'll

try and do it sometime next weekend. I know I have them, I just don't know the

exact box. I don't want to open the hard cover wide and flat, especially since I

have a soft cover.



I'll keep you posted.



Peter


0 -1 0 0
8217 jax760 jax760 The Story of S.H. Hadley The Story of S.H. Hadley 2/19/2012 1:28:00 PM


Many have seen the abridged story of Sam's Spiritual Experience as told by

William James in the Varieties of Religious Experience. For the full story told

in Sam's own words please follow the link below.



God Bless



John B.



http://www.bbsgsonj.com/apps/documents/categories/show/48209


0 -1 0 0
8218 marathonmanric marathonmanric Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 2/17/2012 9:43:00 AM


Having grown up in AA in Miami, I was always told that it was the Miami Heart

Institute, located on the North side of the Julia Tuttle Causeway as one drove

from the mainland over to Miami Beach.



It is also said that a Swedish Ivy sat by his bedside which Lois took and cut

clippings from and gave to members with the instructions, after rooting their

plants to continue cutting clipping, rooting them and to keep passing them on.



I have my plant which I have passed on hundreds of times.

Ric B

5-14-1995


0 -1 0 0
8219 john wikelius john wikelius Re: What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? 2/6/2012 5:02:00 PM


The meeting was probably a temperance meeting. The Woman's Christian Temperance

Union [started later on, in 1873-74] had meetings also for reform of the

drinking laws. I have a newspaper from 1815 which addresses Temperance and

prohibition from drink.


0 -1 0 0
8220 Roy Levin Roy Levin Was it Dr Bob's story? Could he ever drink again? Was it Dr Bob's story? Could he ever drink again? 2/17/2012 2:16:00 PM


Was it Dr Bob's story, or another early AA's?



I seem to remember someone asking Dr. Bob, I think it was Dr Bob, if he would

ever drink again, and he replied, "I can't promise you I will never drink again,

but as long as I feel the way I'm feeling today, and continue to do what I'm

doing (working the program) I don't believe I will drink."  This is a paraphrase

from memory.  I thought it was in Bob's Nightmare, but maybe it's in another

early AA's story in the Big Book, or I read it in one of the biographical books

somewhere. 

 

Can anybody redirect me back to this story or quote from whichever AA book I

remember it from?

 

Appreciate it.

 

Roy L.  aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78


0 -1 0 0
8221 gadgetsdad gadgetsdad Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post Photograph in Saturday Evening Post 2/19/2012 4:19:00 PM


I checked the magazines. That photo is in the 7/2/1955 issue, Jerome Ellison

article.


0 -1 0 0
8222 mlb9292 mlb9292 The two hopeless cases? -- Dr. Percy Pollick on BB page 43 The two hopeless cases? -- Dr. Percy Pollick on BB page 43 2/22/2012 10:50:00 AM


Who were the 2 men who were described as 100% hopeless on page 43 in the Big

Book?



We know that the "staff member of a world renowned hospital" was Dr. Percy

Pollick at Bellevue Hospital in New York City. But do we know who the two men

were? The story in the Big Book says:



<

























>



Thanks and God Bless You All ... Old Ben from Tulsa


0 -1 0 0
8223 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/22/2012 6:38:00 AM


The word reason is used 20 times in the first '164' - once each in the Foreword

to the 2nd Edition, There Is A Solution, More About Alcoholism & the Family

Afterward - 3 times in both Into Action and To Employers - 4 times in Working

With Others - 6 times in We Agnostics -



The word reason is capitalized in the expression "Some of us had already walked

far over the Bridge of Reason to the desired shore of faith." - and in these two

sentences- "We were grateful Reason had brought us so far." - "Perhaps we had

been leaning too heavily on Reason that last mile and we did not like to lose

our support" - all on pp53 (4th ed) of We Agnostics -



I have The Book That Started It All - the original manuscript in it is similarly

capitalized -



As a matter of note, the word bridge does not appear in the King James version

of the Bible - the word reason appears 88 times, none of which is capitalized -



Also the word bridge appears in This Believing World 3 times with no reference

to the bridge of reason - the word reason is used about 27 times, none

capitalized -



In "The Decline of the West, the bridge of reason appears once sans capitals

(see Exhibit I) - reason was capitalized once (see Exhibit II) out of about 110

usages - it is a digital scan and I couldn't verify with the original -



I know there is a hymn "Bridge of Reason, Shore of Faith", but I don't think

Bill was referring to that hymn? -



What is the "Bridge of Reason"?



Why was "Reason" capitalized, twice?



Might we have to settle for an educated guess by one of our knowledgeable

historians?



Larry Holbrook

(410) 802-3099

Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com



=============================

Exhibit I

=============================

This beat of cosmic cycles goes on notwithstanding the freedom of micro-

cosmic movement in space, and from time to time breaks down the tension of the

waking individual's being into the one grand felt harmony. If we have ever fol-

lowed the flight of a bird in the high air -- how, always in the same way, it

rises, turns, glides, loses itself in the distance -- we must have felt the

plantlike

certainty of the "it" and the "we" in this ensemble of motion, which needs

no bridge of reason to unite your sense of it with mine. This is the meaning





THE COSMIC AND THE MICROCOSM 5



of war-dances and love-dances amongst men and beasts. In this wise a regi-"

ment mounting to the assault under fire is forged into a unity, in this wise

does

the crowd collect at some exciting occasion and become a body, capable of

thinking and acting pitifully, blindly, and strangely for a moment ere it falls

apart again. In such cases the microcosmic wall is obliterated. If jostles and

threatens, if pushes and pulls, if flees, swerves, and sways. Limbs intertwine,

feet rush, one cry comes from every mouth, one destiny overlies all. Out of a

sum of little single worlds comes suddenly a complete whole.

=============================

Exhibit II

=============================

We have our Euhemeristic interpretations of

Hell as a guilty conscience, the Devil as evil desire, and God as the beauty of

nature, and it is the same tendency that declares itself when Attic tomb-in-

scriptions of about 400 invoke, not the city-goddess Athene, but a goddess

"Demos" -- a near relation, by the way, of the Jacobins' Goddess of Reason

-- and where the Sainoviov for Socrates, vovs for other philosophers, take the

place of Zeus. Confucius says "heaven" instead of "Shang-ti," which means

that he believes only in laws of nature. The "collection" and "ordering" of

the canonical writings of China by the Confucians was a colossal act of Euhemer-

ism, in which actually almost all the old religious works were literally de-

stroyed and the residue subjected to rationalist falsification.

==============================


0 -1 0 0
8224 john wikelius john wikelius Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post Photograph in Saturday Evening Post 2/22/2012 12:36:00 AM


Can supply cover art if you want to identify magazine in your travels.



john wikelius (justjohn1431946@yahoo.com)>

(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)





________________________________

From: gadgetsdad (gadgetsdad@yahoo.com) >

Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:19 PM

Subject: Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post



I checked the magazines. That photo is in the 7/2/1955 issue, Jerome Ellison

article.


0 -1 0 0
8225 Cindy Miller Cindy Miller Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post Photograph in Saturday Evening Post 2/22/2012 4:57:00 PM


What photo? Could you kindly tell us WHAT photo you are talking about?



Thank You



-Cindy Miller

NOT sent from an iPhone


0 -1 0 0
8226 joe joe AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark 2/24/2012 6:45:00 AM


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-02-17/alcohol-anoymous-founders-h\

ome-national-landmark/53134838/1




Interesting AA history article in USA Today and other papers today.



AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark

By Rob Ryser, The (Westchester, N.Y.) Journal NewsUpdated 6d 15h ago Comments

BEDFORD HILLS, N.Y. – The royal couple of Alcoholics Anonymous would become as

American as the Statue of Liberty under a federal recommendation to crown the

home of the group's co-founders as a National Historic Landmark.

The high historic honor, which could be official as soon as the spring, would

note not only the national importance of the AA movement and the essential role

that Bill and Lois Wilson played in it, but would also validate the struggle

anyone has had using the 12 steps to overcome an addiction.

"What they did and what this program does has had an enormous impact on the

country because it's a program for dealing with life as well as a program for

dealing with alcoholism," said Jim M. of Somers, a 57-year-old retired

accountant who got sober four years ago in AA and is bound by the program's

principles to remain anonymous when speaking with the media. "So anything that

brings attention to these principles can only help people live better lives and

stop hurting other people."

Those who are responsible for preserving the Wilson home and 8-acre grounds,

known by the name Stepping Stones that the couple gave it, see the landmark

status as part of a natural progression of increasing recognition for the

Wilsons' accomplishments. Bill Wilson co-founded AA and declared alcoholism a

disease decades before doctors did. Lois Wilson co-founded Al-Anon for families

of alcoholics and made provisions for her home to be a resource for recovery

after her death.



Stepping Stones Foundation

Bill and Lois Wilson sit outside their home, Stepping Stones, in 1960.

While for years the nonprofit's use of the home in this neighborhood raised few

objections, the increasing visibility of the AA shrine has started to bother

some neighbors.

The irony is at a time when the Wilsons' contributions are being recognized in a

wider national context, their property is being scrutinized more narrowly by

neighbors, said Annah Perch, executive director of the Stepping Stones

Foundation.

The stewards of the Wilson legacy do not see greatly increased numbers of people

coming to the site as a result of landmark status beyond the 3,000 annual

visitors Stepping Stones has attracted since it was listed on the National

Register of Historic Places in 2004.

"Stepping Stones is not the typical historic preservation site," said James

Moogan of Kent, a retired deputy commissioner of the state Parks Department and

president of the Stepping Stones Foundation board. "It is more of a pilgrimage

that is not really on the radar."

But don't tell that to Diane Briganti, 56, who lives across the street from the

Wilson home entrance and keeps notes and photos of cars, crowds, buses and

trucks arriving for Stepping Stones events. She has fought against the home

because she says it detracts from property values in the residential

neighborhood.

"This is a negative," Briganti said. "It could be a cellphone tower across the

street and it would have the same effect on the value of my house."

She plans to send a petition to the National Park Service, which is reviewing

the recommendation.

A historian at the National Park Service's Washington office said the advisory

board, which will review the Stepping Stones recommendation before sending it to

the Secretary of the Interior, considers all comments from the public. The

board's decision will rely heavily on the direction of the committee of experts

that has unanimously recommended national landmark status for Stepping Stones,

historian Patty Henry said.

Henry added that during the spring, a similar landmark effort is planned for the

Akron, Ohio, home of Dr. Bob Smith, the surgeon who co-founded AA and helped

Wilson develop the peer treatment concept of one drunk helping another drunk to

stay sober.

Among the home's items sacred to recovering alcoholics is the kitchen table

where Bill Wilson developed the idea that faith in a higher power was a more

palatable idea for an alcoholic than faith in God, and the desk in his shed

where he wrote about the need for conversion, confession and faith in recovery.

Bart Tyler, proprietor of Kelloggs & Lawrence Hardware in downtown Katonah,

welcomes the landmark designation.

"I can certainly attest to the great many people who come by on foot or in cars

or taxis looking for directions to the Stepping Stones property. It is one of

the most popular destinations that brings visitors to our town."


0 -1 0 0
8227 joe joe Re: Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model 2/24/2012 6:59:00 AM


I am a 23 year military veteran sober all of that time. I am an AA history buff

with a great interest in AA history especially when it is connected to the

military. this is a fascinating topic for me, I have read both "With a lot of

help from our friends" and "On the Military Firing lines". I also met Dr Zuska

and corresponded by email with Sgt Bill Swegan before they left this earth. I

have talked to many members of the early Long Beach Ice Breakers and Dry Docks

Groups and both employees and patients at the first Navy treatment center in

Long Beach including Frank H. whose office was used for the first 12th step that

became the Icebreakers Group - (an underground AA meeting for senior military

officials could go similar to Birds of Feather).

I would love to discuss the ideas put forth in the book and look forward to

getting the new release of Bill Swegan/Glen Chesnut ideas and reviewing what I

read.

I offer these ideas as food for thought until that can happen.

- The AF does not seem to have any records of the "Lackland Model".

- My correspondence with Bill Swegan before he passed and my reading of his book

did not lead me to the conclusion he was more focused on the psychological and

less on the spiritual - I will review to see if I can gleen that theme.

- Other than this alleged acquantence, "Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and

provided the link between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach

Navy program" there seems to be no connection between Lackland and Long Beach

treatment attempts and I do not recall Nancy Olsen ever discussing Lackland in

the development of legislation, but did know and rely on help from Long beach.

Respectfully submitted.







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote:

>

> Chapter 16. Twelfth Stepping the Military

> http://hindsfoot.org/help16.pdf

>

> Chapter 17. Alcoholics with Gold Braid

> http://hindsfoot.org/help17.pdf

>

> (Taken from Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of

Alcoholism (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html )

>

> The Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment was first developed at

Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953-1961 by William E. Swegan

and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon ("Jolly") West.

>

> In Chapter 16, Nancy Olson describes the further development of this type of

AA-related alcoholism treatment program by psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Zuska and

Navy Commander Dick Jewell at the Long Beach Naval Station in California in the

years 1965 and following. (Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link

between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program.)

>

> Dr. Zuska, although not an alcoholic himself, was beloved at a deep personal

level by several generations of AA people in that part of California because of

all he had done to help alcoholics -- hundreds and hundreds of them owed their

lives to him, and they knew it.

>

> Betty Ford, wife of U.S. President Ford, was sent to the Long Beach treatment

program to get sober, and U.S. President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was

also sent there because of its outstanding record in getting alcoholics sober.

>

> Then Nancy goes on in Chapter 17 to describe the hearings before the U.S.

Senate subcommittee on alcoholism and drug abuse in the U.S. military in 1970.

Also more on Joe Zuska and the Navy alcoholism treatment program which he

developed at Long Beach.

>


0 -1 0 0
8228 planternva2000 planternva2000 Re: Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model 2/24/2012 4:58:00 PM


Just a few personal notes on Joe Zuska and the Long Beach facility.

I underwent treatment at Long Beach during September and October of 1971 after

two months in psychiatric wards on the East Coast. I met (Capt.) Jim B. when he

visited to see how the clinic operated. Later, back on the East Coast, we again

met and I found I had joined the home group of which he was a member.



The Norfolk ARC opened in an abandoned barracks at the Naval Amphibious Station

in Virginia Beach before moving to Norfolk Naval Station.



In 1972 I deployed to the Western Pacific aboard an aircraft carrier with one

other AA aboard, "Hoppy," who had seven years. We pulled into Subic Bay, P.I. on

my first AA birthday. The AA population at that time (July, 1972) consisted of

Howard, who had been a loner for a number of years, and Dave, a sailor Howard

had twelfth stepped three months earlier. On our last visit to Subic in March,

'72, the group had grown considerably, they had daily meetings, and a ward in

the base hospital set aside for alcoholism treatment.



Jim S.


0 -1 0 0
8229 J.BARRY Murtaugh J.BARRY Murtaugh Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark 2/24/2012 11:51:00 AM


From Barry Murtaugh and Norm the Tinman



- - - -



From: "J.BARRY Murtaugh" murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com>

(murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com)



Quote from Kurt Vonnegut one of my favorite authors

© Rolling Stone magazine · May 28,1998, 787:183



The Work to Be Done, by Kurt Vonnegut



*"The only specifically American inventions that have made this a better world

are Alcoholics Anonymous and jazz, and jazz has no bad side effects."*



No one could say it better (except to add the Grateful Dead!) IMHO.



bear



- - - -



From: Norm The Tinman (normtinman@yahoo.com)>

(normtinman at yahoo.com)



Hey guys, are we sure it was Bill who called Alcoholism a disease --though

reading it was Dr Silkworth first, and Bill had used it at first then stopped

along the way.



=============================================

QUOTE: "Bill Wilson co-founded AA and declared alcoholism a disease decades

before doctors did."



FROM: An interesting AA history article in USA Today and other papers today



"AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark"



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-02-17/alcohol-anoymous-founders-h\

ome-national-landmark/53134838/1




By Rob Ryser, The (Westchester, N.Y.) Journal News BEDFORD HILLS, N.Y.



POSTED ON THE AAHL BY:

joe (chief_roger@yahoo.com) > (chief_roger at yahoo.com)

=============================================


0 -1 0 0
8230 Jay Pees Jay Pees Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark 2/25/2012 2:17:00 PM


Dr Benjamin Rush, a signer of the American Declaration of Independence, was the

first to describe it as a disease.

>

> - - - -

>

> From: Norm The Tinman (normtinman@yahoo.com) >

> (normtinman at yahoo.com)

>

> Hey guys, are we sure it was Bill who called Alcoholism a disease --though

> reading it was Dr Silkworth first, and Bill had used it at first then

> stopped along the way.


0 -1 0 0
8231 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist 2/25/2012 3:56:00 PM


"Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist"

by Glenn F. Chesnut



http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html



Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the

Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story

"The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his

article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May

1968.



- - - -



This article is part of the ongoing research on



"Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus

Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous"



at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html







(Referenced close to the top of page

http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html )


0 -1 0 0
8232 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Sally and David R. Brown rediscover William E. Swegan's work Sally and David R. Brown rediscover William E. Swegan's work 2/25/2012 4:09:00 PM


"2001: Sally and David R. Brown rediscover William E. Swegan's alcoholism

treatment programs of the 1940s and 50s"



http://hindsfoot.org/swegmarty.html



Bill Swegan's pioneering work in the 1940's and 50's in using AA in

institutional alcoholism treatment programs had become largely forgotten by the

end of the century. But then c. 2000, what he had done was rediscovered by Sally

and David Brown while they were researching their great book on Mrs. Marty Mann,

who had been Bill's mentor and patron.







(As referenced around the middle of



http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html



which contains several good photographs

of Bill Swegan and one of Marty Mann)


0 -1 0 0
8233 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Bill Swegan on the steps: a nontheistic / atheistic interpretation Bill Swegan on the steps: a nontheistic / atheistic interpretation 2/25/2012 4:04:00 PM


"A nontheistic / atheistic way of working

the twelve steps: William E. Swegan"



http://hindsfoot.org/atheistswsteps.html



An article by Glenn F. Chesnut in which he explains how Sgt. Bill Swegan

successfully worked the steps from the standpoint of a dedicated ethical

humanism.



Swegan thought of his Higher Power in terms of the laws of nature and

the healing forces within nature which could return our minds to sanity and

reason, in combination with the rationalist's faith that truth and honesty would

always ultimately triumph over error and ignorance.



We needed to develop a whole lot more faith and trust -- not in some childish

idea of a personal God who would magically rescue us from everything if we just

spoke the right words -- but faith and trust in ourselves. We needed to replace

the compulsion to carry out continual self-sabotage with a new spirit of

self-confidence and resolution.





=====================================

Or in Bill Swegan's own words, see



BILL 'S CHAPTER ON THE TOPIC:

Chapter 18. "Recovery through the Twelve Steps"



http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc18.pdf



as taken from William E. Swegan,

The Psychology of Alcoholism (2011).

=====================================







(Referenced at the bottom of page

http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html )


0 -1 0 0
8234 Omyword Omyword Re: Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist 2/26/2012 10:23:00 AM


I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is significant in

AA history. Am I right to understand that it was added in the Second Edition of

Alcoholics Anonymous?



Appendix II makes clear that the idea that recovery from alcoholism is and must

be from a God-conscious experience in AA, is erroneous; some of the recoveries

were of an educational, not a religious experience.



What is the History of this document? Is this penned by Bill W.? It seems to me

to be spoken in a voice that differs from the 164 pages. If so, is this Bill's

maturation or did someone else draft this document?



Any input would be welcome.



Joe C



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote:

>

> "Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist"

> by Glenn F. Chesnut

>

> http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html

>

> Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on

the Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his

story "The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in

his article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in

May

> 1968.

>

> - - - -

>

> This article is part of the ongoing research on

>

> "Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus

> Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous"

>

> at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html

>

>

>

> (Referenced close to the top of page

> http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html )

>


0 -1 0 0
8235 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Appendix II Appendix II 2/26/2012 1:13:00 PM


Joe, et al,



Appendix II was first published in the second printing of the first edition Big

Book in 1941, just about two years after the first printing.



In summing up William James' "educational variety," the first full paragraph of

page 568 (fourth edition) states: "Most of us think this awareness of Power

greater than ourselves is the essence of a spiritual experience. Our more

religious members call it: "God-consciousness." Please note the letter "P," in

the word Power, is capitalized, indicating God.



Thank you for the question concerning the authorship of Appendix II. I have

always assumed it was Bill Wilson.



Bob S.





===========================================

I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is significant in

AA history. Am I right to understand that it was added in the Second Edition of

Alcoholics Anonymous?



Appendix II makes clear that the idea that recovery from alcoholism is and must

be from a God-conscious experience in AA, is erroneous; some of the recoveries

were of an educational, not a religious experience.



What is the History of this document? Is this penned by Bill W.? It seems to me

to be spoken in a voice that differs from the 164 pages. If so, is this Bill's

maturation or did someone else draft this document?



Any input would be welcome.



Joe C

===========================================


0 -1 0 0
8236 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Father Ralph Pfau: A.A. Author and American Catholic Thinker Father Ralph Pfau: A.A. Author and American Catholic Thinker 2/26/2012 5:23:00 PM


"Father Ralph Pfau: Alcoholics Anonymous

Author and American Catholic Thinker"

by Glenn F. Chesnut

http://hindsfoot.org/pfcath.pdf



Topics include his founding of the National Catholic Council on Alcoholism

(along with its publication the NCCA Blue Book.



At that time, James Cardinal McIntyre, who was Archbishop of Los Angeles from

1948 until 1978, was an arch-traditionalist who was deeply opposed to Alcoholics

Anonymous. Fr. Ralph, who (when sober) was a skillful ecclesiastical politician,

brought in Archbishops Paul Schulte and Joseph Ritter to help him defend A.A.,

along with Ritter's Auxiliary Bishop John Cody (later John Patrick Cardinal

Cody, Archbishop of Chicago).



Also the major influence of Spanish translations of his writings on early AA in

the Spanish Catholic world (they were originally far more widely available than

Spanish translations of the Big Book).



Also the topic of scrupulosity and obsessive-compulsive perfectionism, the

problem of guilt and shame, the influence of St. Therese of Lisieux's teaching

of the Little Way and St. Augustine's anti-Pelagian writings, and theological

disagreements with Father Ed Dowling.



Also Fr. Ralph's argument that AA dealt only with the via purgativa (and was not

involved in the via illuminativa or via unitiva), his insistence that the Big

Book taught only natural theology and natural law morality.



Also Fr. Ralph's his work to spread the teachings of the early

cognitive-behaviorist psychiatrist Dr. Abraham Low and Recovery Inc. (which used

the modern study of semantics to counter Freud and Schopenhauer).



Also Pfau's theory of sinner saints "sanctified" because their willingness to

keep on trying has been "sanctioned" by God, his campaign to win sainthood for

Matt Talbot, the Third Covenant Controversy at the AA International in 1950, his

falling out with Bill W. over anonymity (and their making peace in Toronto in

1965).







(Original reference 1/3 of the way down

http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html )


0 -1 0 0
8237 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? Who first called alcoholism a disease? 2/25/2012 3:23:00 PM


From Norm The Tinman and Laurie Andrews



- - - -



From: Norm The Tinman (normtinman@yahoo.com)>

Date: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:23 pm

Subject: Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark



Thanks Jay--glad we got that straightened out--can you tell me where you found

it please ?



Norm



- - - -



See earlier post from: Jay Pees (racewayjay@gmail.com) >

Subject: Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 2:17 PM



Dr Benjamin Rush, a signer of the American Declaration of Independence, was the

first to describe it as a disease.



- - - -



See earlier post from: normtinman@yahoo.com >

(normtinman at yahoo.com)



Hey guys, are we sure it was Bill who called Alcoholism a disease -- though

reading it was Dr Silkworth first, and Bill had used it at first then stopped

along the way.



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews (jennylaurie1@hotmail.com ) >

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Bill was careful not to describe alcoholism as a disease, see my posting 5689

e.g.



Laurie A.


0 -1 0 0
8238 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist 2/27/2012 7:56:00 PM


Hi Kathy



Would loved to have talked to this man -- in a lot of ways I can understand why

he believes this way -- he has saved a lot of people's lives, by fighting to

have that"God as we understood Him" phrase in the B B -- I believe it was he and

Hank Parkhurst that were non believers -- many times we hear members with long

time sobriety talk about religious things at meetings -- I don't say anything

directly to the person, but make sure if it's a discussion meeting, when it's my

turn, say a few things about the phrase above and tradition 3 -- we all need

time to decide what belief we come to believe -- the book says we came to

believe ;/)



I'm rambling -- thanks Kathy



- - - -



Message #8231 from Glenn Chesnut

glennccc@sbcglobal.net > (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Sat Feb 25, 2012



"Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist"

by Glenn F. Chesnut



http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html



Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the

Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story

"The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his

article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May

1968.



- - - -



This article is part of the ongoing research on



"Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus

Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous"



at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html







(Referenced close to the top of page

http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html )


0 -1 0 0
8239 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: Appendix II Appendix II 2/26/2012 6:02:00 PM


From Tommy Hickcox, Chuck Parkhurst, and John Steeves



- - - -



From:Tom Hickcox (cometkazie1@cox.net) >

(cometkazie1 at cox.net)



At 10:23 2/26/2012, Joe C/Omyword wrote:



>I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is

>significant in AA history. Am I right to understand that it was

>added in the Second Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous?



It was added to the Second Printing of the First Edition, published

in March 1941.



Do a search of the archives of A.A.H.L. for "Appendix II" and you

will find a lot of material on it.



Glenn C's recent link to his article on Jim Burwell also has some

material on religious vs educational "spiritual awakenings".



Tommy H in Danville



- - - -



From: "Chuck Parkhurst" ineedpage63@cox.net>

(ineedpage63 at cox.net)



In Appendix II the "conclusion" that is "erroneous" is the conclusion that the

"personality changes, or religious experiences" had by our members (to bring

about recovery from alcoholism) "must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular

upheavals." Further on in Appendix II, the authors state these "experiences"

(personality changes or religious experiences) can "develop slowly over a period

of time." The terms "religious experience" and "educational variety" are not

mutually exclusive.



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst



- - - -



From: John Steeves honest03060@yahoo.com>

(honest03060 at yahoo.com)



Hi,



That is one person's interpretation.



Another maybe that all recovered alcoholics have spiritual experiences; some

sudden and spectacular and others more slowly (or educational) both result in

the same change and help the alcoholic to achieve the following: "...awareness

of a Power greater than ourselves the essence of spiritual experience. Our more

religious members call it "God-consciousness."



Just another person's interpretation.



Read the black not the white as my sponsor always said.



SWJ



_____________________________________________



-----Original Message-----

From: Omyword

Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012

Subject: Re: Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist



I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is significant in

AA history. Am I right to understand that it was added in the Second Edition of

Alcoholics Anonymous?



Appendix II makes clear that the idea that recovery from alcoholism is and must

be from a God-conscious experience in AA, is erroneous; some of the recoveries

were of an educational, not a religious experience.



What is the History of this document? Is this penned by Bill W.? It seems to me

to be spoken in a voice that differs from the 164 pages. If so, is this Bill's

maturation or did someone else draft this document?



Any input would be welcome.



Joe C



_____________________________________________



Referring to message #8231 from Glenn Chesnut

glennccc@sbcglobal.net > (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Sat Feb 25, 2012



"Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist"

by Glenn F. Chesnut



http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html



Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the

Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story

"The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his

article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May

1968.



- - - -



This article is part of the ongoing research on



"Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus

Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous"



at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html







(Referenced close to the top of page

http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html )


0 -1 0 0
8240 John Barton John Barton Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? Who first called alcoholism a disease? 2/27/2012 12:14:00 PM


This information is not correct. While Rush was certainly an early proponent of

the disease concept it was posited as a "disease" entity before the late 1700s

and probably over in Europe first. Can't say for certain who said it first but

it was certainly not Rush. Perhaps Jared, Bill White or Ernie could chime in. If

I have a chance I'll see if I can pull out Jellinek's book which I think listed

some sort of timeline.

 

Regards


0 -1 0 0
8241 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Change in Daily Reflections Change in Daily Reflections 3/1/2012 10:53:00 AM


My home group reads the entry for the day's date at the beginning of

every meeting. I normally follow along on my PDA.



Imagine my surprise when the reading wasn't the same?



My Daily Reflections is the Fourth Printing, February 1991 and

February 29th is the Third Tradition. Current printings have a

reading from the Big Book, p. 57.



When was this change effected and why? Since the book is published

by the conference, I would expect that the change went thru the

vetting process.



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8242 Arthur S Arthur S Re: Appendix II Appendix II 2/28/2012 6:04:00 PM


In March 1941, almost two years after the first printing, the wording of Step 12

was changed in the second printing of the Big Book. The term "spiritual

experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of

these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps."



An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was also added. Many members thought

they had to have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one

Bill W describes in the chapter "Bill's Story." The appendix emphasized that

most spiritual experiences developed slowly over time and were of the

"educational variety."



The so-called Spencer quotation (i.e. ". contempt prior to investigation .") was

added to Appendix II in the fourth printing of the second edition in 1960.



Cheers



Arthur



- - - -



From Glenn C. (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)>

(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



BIG BOOK QUOTATION IS NOT FROM HERBERT SPENCER

but actually from William Paley



===========================================

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof

against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting

ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Big Book (4th

edition) page 568.

===========================================



Michael StGeorge, in his classic article "The Survival of a Fitting Quotation,"

shows that it was actually taken not from Herbert Spencer (1820-1903), but from

an earlier author, William Paley (1743-1805).



For a copy of StGeorge's article see

http://hindsfoot.org/stgeorge.pdf


0 -1 0 0
8243 jax760 jax760 Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? Who first called alcoholism a disease? 2/29/2012 12:41:00 PM


From jax760, Art B, and Norm the Tinman



- - - -



From: "jax760" jax760@yahoo.com >

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



The following from William White should be given more weight than many of

articles, essays, etc found on the internet that identify Trotter and Rush as

the "originators" of the disease concept.



"The conceptualization of chronic drunkenness as a disease did not originate in

America. References to chronic drunkenness as a sickness of the body and soul,

and the presence of specialized roles to care for people suffering from "drink

madness," can be found in the

civilizations of ancient Egypt and Greece. Isolated and periodic references to

chronic drunkenness as a disease, and even occasional calls for state-sponsored

treatment, continued through the centuries before the first European migrations

to America."



White, W. (2000) Addiction as a Disease: Birth of a Concept. Counselor,

1(1):46-51, 73.



By the way, the four articles written by White in 2000 are a must read for any

AA Historian or those who wish to understand "alcoholism" and the "disease

concept" better.



God Bless,



John



- - - -



From: "Art B" artb@netwiz.net >

(artb at netwiz.net)



Dear Norm,



The book "Slaying the Dragon," by William L. White, describes the efforts by

Benjamin Rush to describe how to be cured of alcoholism. His suggestion was to

not take the first drink.



Sincerely,



Art Boudreault



- - - -



From: Norm The Tinman (normtinman@yahoo.com) >

(normtinman at yahoo.com)



Hi Guys

Guess the statement I put on here was questioning was this newspaper article

correct saying Bill was first to use term disease -- I knew he wasn't, but

wanted some input from others also before saying so -- thanks all Norm


0 -1 0 0
8244 Arthur S Arthur S Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? Who first called alcoholism a disease? 2/28/2012 6:08:00 PM


From Arthur S. and Laurence Holbrook



- - - -



From: Arthur S (arthur.s@live.com) >

(arthur.s at live.com)



The first American physician to call alcoholism a disease was Dr Benjamin Rush.



He was a member of the Continental Congress, a signer of the Declaration of

Independence and Surgeon General of the Army during the American Revolution. He

is often called both the father of American psychiatry and father of the

American temperance movement.



In 1784, Rush wrote a paper titled "An Enquiry into the Effects of Ardent

Spirits on the Human Body and Mind." He described habitual drunkenness as "a

progressive and odious disease" and that total abstinence "suddenly and

entirely" was the only effective treatment.



In 1810 Rush also called for the creation of what he called "sober houses" where

alcoholics could be confined and rehabilitated. This was the forerunner of

Treatment Centers.



It's a bit ironic that Dr Bob, during some of the worst years of his drinking,

received his medical degree from Rush University which was named in honor of Dr

Benjamin Rush, a pioneer in the treatment of alcoholism.



Cheers



Arthur



*******************************************



From: "Laurence Holbrook" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com >

(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)



http://books.google.com/books?id=-6UoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=Inquiry+into+the\

+Effects+of+Ardent+Spirits+upon+the+Human+Body+and+Mind&source=bl&ots=neE4ikAVwJ\

&sig=qWzSLX3XCiqJNol20omtRZLlPvQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rFRNT6OEM4nlsQL_7aEh&ved=0CCoQ6AE\

wAQ#v=onepage&q=disease&f=false




By BENJAMIN RUSH

Professor of medicine in the University of Pennsylvania

[published in 1823]



"An inquiry into the effects of ardent

spirits upon the human body and mind ..."



[p 5]



By ardent spirits, i mean those liquors only which are obtained by distillation

from fermented substances of any kind. to their effects upon the bodies and

minds of men, the following inquiry shall be exclusively confined. Fermented

liquors contain so little spirit, and that so intimately combined with other

matters, that they can seldom be drunken in sufficient quantities to produce

intoxication, and it's subsequent effects, without exciting a disrelish to their

taste, or pain, from their distending the stomach. They are, moreover, when

taken in a moderate quantity, generally innocent, and often have a friendly

influence upon health and life.



The effects of ardent spirits divide themselves into such as are of a prompt,

and such as are of a chronic nature. The former discover themselves in

drunkenness; and the latter, in a numerous train of diseases and vices of the

body and mind.



I. I shall begin by briefly describing their prompt, or immediate effects, in a

fit of drunkenness.



This odious disease (for by that name it should be called) appears with more or

less of the following symptoms, and most commonly in the order in which I shall

enumerate them.



1. Unusual garrulity.



2. Unusual silence.



3. Captiousness, and a disposition to quarrel.



4. Uncommon good humor, and an insipid simpering, or laugh.



5. Profane swearing, and cursing.



7. A disclosure of their own, or other people's secrets.



8. A rude disposition to tell those persons in company whom they know, their

faults.



9. Certain immodest actions. I am sorry to say, this sign of the first stage of

drunkenness, sometimes appears in women, who, when sober, are uniformly

remarkable for chaste and decent manners.



10. A clipping of words.



11. Fighting; a black eye, or a swelled nose, often mark this grade of

drunkenness.



12. Certain extravagant acts which indicate a temporary fit of madness. These

are singing, hallooing, roaring, imitating the noises of brute animals, jumping,

tearing off clothes, dancing naked, breaking glasses and china, and dashing

other articles of household furniture upon the ground or floor. After a while

the paroxysm of drunkenness is completely formed. The face now becomes flushed,

the eyes project, and are somewhat watery, winking is less frequent than in

natural; the under lip is protruded -- the head inclines a little to one

shoulder -- the jaw falls -- belchings and hiccup take place -- the limbs totter

-- the whole body staggers: -- The unfortunate subject of this history next

falls on his seat, -- he looks around him with a vacant countenance, and mutters

inarticulate sounds to himself -- he attempts to rise and walk. In this attempt,

he falls upon his side, from which he gradually turns upon his back. He now

closes his eyes, and falls into a profound sleep, frequently attended with

snoring, and profuse sweats, and sometimes with such a relaxation of the muscles

which confine the bladder and the lower bowels, as to produce a symptom which

delicacy forbids me to mention. In this condition, he often lies from ten,

twelve, and twenty-four hours, to two, three, four, and five days, an object of

pity and disgust to his family and friends. His recovery from this fit of

intoxication, is marked with several peculiar appearances. He opens his eyes,

and closes them again -- he gapes and stretches his limbs -- he then coughs and

pukes -- his voice is hoarse -- he rises with difficulty, and staggers to a

chair; his eyes resemble balls of fire -- his hands tremble -- he loathes the

sight of food -- he calls for a glass of spirits to compose his stomach -- now

and then he emits a deep-fetched sigh, or groan, from a transient twinge of

conscience, but he more frequently scolds, and curses every thing around him. In

this state of languor and stupidity, he remains for two or three days, before he

is able to resume his former habits of business and conversation ....



[p 8]



Let us next attend to the chronic effects of ardent spirits upon the body and

mind, in the body, they dispose to every form of acute disease; they moreover,

excite fevers in persons predisposed to them, from other causes. This has been

remarked in all the yellow fevers which have visited the cities of the United

States. Hard drinkers seldom escape, and rarely recover from them.



The following diseases are the usual consequences of the habitual use of ardent

spirits, viz.



1. A decay of appetite, sickness at stomach, and a puking of bile, or a

discharge of a frothy and viscid phlegm by hawking, in the morning.



2. Obstructions of the liver. The fable of Prometheus, on whose liver a vulture

was said to prey constantly, as a punishment for his stealing fire from heaven,

was intended to illustrate the painful effects of ardent spirits upon that organ

or the body.



[continues with 7 more chronic effects]



Larry Holbrook

(410) 802-3099

Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com


0 -1 0 0
8245 Roger Wheatley Roger Wheatley An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 3/1/2012 4:14:00 PM


From: ROGER WHEATLEY chief_roger@yahoo.com>

(chief_roger at yahoo.com)



I have been unable to find a copy of the article written about the Lackland

treatment results:



Louis Jolyon West and William H [sic] Swegan,

An approach to alcoholism in the military service.

American Journal of Psychiatry 1956; 112, 1104-1009)



- - - -



FROM THE MODERATOR:



After the first edition of Bill Swegan's book came out in 2003, I packed away

all my research notes from this project, including my copy of this journal

article, which was an official offprint from the publisher from back at the time

when it was originally published. (I had gone through the document sentence by

sentence and word by word, back at that time). It's somewhere in a stack of

boxes down in my basement, I think, but it would take days to find it.



It can be downloaded online, but it seems to cost about $35 to download it:



http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=146086



Does anybody in the AAHistoryLovers have a copy of the article easily available?

Or know how people could obtain a copy without it costing an arm and a leg?



Glenn C.


0 -1 0 0
8246 EdgarC EdgarC Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/2/2012 8:58:00 AM


In his book, Rural Free Delivery, Mark Whalon, childhood pal of Bill Wilson,

tells of shooting a woman identified only as Jeanne who Whalon says stalked him

on his postal delivery route. Whalon on page 123 of the first edition of the

book also tells of burying her " 'long side of my four regular wives and some

mail-order ones" in the family burying plot "beneath the sour apple tree."



I find little on Whalon beside a swell Life magazine feature from the '40s, and

nothing about serial killings. Was Whalon adding spice to his story, or is there

some truth to it?



Edgar C, Sarasota FL


0 -1 0 0
8247 rickcard47 rickcard47 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 3/2/2012 12:12:00 PM


I have what I believe are 2 of the 2nd edition, 1st printings. But they are not

the same. One of them is a bit thicker than the other, and has the "Spencer"

quote in Appendix II,the other does not have the Spencer quote in appendix II.



Arthur's message #8242 said the Spencer quote wasn't added until the 4th

printing of the 2nd edition.



Is it possible that some early 2nd editions came out without the printing

number?



Thanks in advance

Rick


0 -1 0 0
8248 cometkazie1@cox.net cometkazie1@c... RE: 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 3/3/2012 2:48:00 PM


THE SPENCER/PALEY QUOTE WAS ADDED TO

APPENDIX II IN THE THIRD PRINTING of

the 2nd edition, not the fourth printing



===============================

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:12 PM, rickcard47 wrote:



> I have what I believe are 2 of the 2nd edition, 1st printings. But

> they are not the same. One of them is a bit thicker than the other,

> and has the "Spencer" quote in Appendix II,the other does not have the

> Spencer quote in appendix II.

> Arthur's message #8242 said the Spencer quote wasn't added until the

> 4th printing of the 2nd edition.

> Is it possible that some early 2nd editions came out without the

> printing number?

===============================



None of the first three printings of the Second Edition have the

printing number in the front. The First and Second don't have the quote

attributed to Herbert Spencer, while the Third does.



The First Printing has the word "really" spelled "realy" on p. xx at the

front of the sixth printed line.



The Second Printing and subsequent have the word "really" spelled

correctly.



The Third Printing has "Other Publications" listed opposite the full

title page as well as the alleged Spencer quote.



My first four printings are all about the same size.



I suspect you have a First or a Second and a Third. A quick check of

the spelling of "really" on p. xx will tell.



Thanks for getting me off my duff and checking my books.



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8249 LES COLE LES COLE RE: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/2/2012 12:21:00 PM


From Les Cole and jax760



- - - -



LES COLE elsietwo@msn.com > (elsietwo at msn.com)



March 3, 2012 Hello Edgar: I am very intrigued by your post. When I was writing

my new book about Rogers Burnham (see www.LesCole-AA.com) I searched for

information about Mark and after difficulty found a copy of "Rural Free

Delivery" at the University of Vermont Library.



They sent it to me as a loan and I found his poem "Lem's plan" very interesting

concerning the Vermont culture.



I do not recall reading what you quote below. Can you tell us where you got your

book, and if it can become available somewhere?



I knew Mark when I was a child and lived with Rog Burnham in the Burnham Camp on

Emerald Lake (1933). Mark was our mailman and I saw him often when he delivered

our mail to the RFD mailbox.



I can't believe he would be, or write about, being a murderer!



Susan Cheever wrote a chapter about Mark in her book My Name Is Bill. Have you

seen that? Lois wrote several things about Mark in her diaries. I read some of

these when I studied the archives at Stepping Stones in 2009, and I quote some

of these in my book. There is a picture of Mark and Charlie Richie hanging on

the wall in Bill's study on the hill at SS. (Charlie was the Burnhamcare-taker

of the Burnham properties in Vermont).



I'll tell you a story about Charlie and my father if you write to me on my

personal e-mail, elsietwo@msn.com . Thanks very much for your post.



Les ColeColorado Springs, CO



- - - -



From: "jax760" jax760@yahoo.com >

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



BTW,



"Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle name according to

Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is buried in a cemetery on

the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House.



John B.



- - - -



FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:



????? Was there more than one author named Mark Whalon ?????



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Whalon

says that his name was Mark A., not John Mark:



"Mark A Whalon (1886–1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close

friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a

close influence on Wilson in his later life."



- - - -



Original message from: edgarc@aol.com

Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012

Subject: Mark Whalon a murderer?



In his book, Rural Free Delivery, Mark Whalon, childhood pal of Bill Wilson,

tells of shooting a woman identified only as Jeanne who Whalon says stalked him

on his postal delivery route. Whalon on page 123 of the first edition of the

book also tells of burying her " 'long side of my four regular wives and some

mail-order ones" in the family burying plot "beneath the sour apple tree."



Edgar C, Sarasota FL


0 -1 0 0
8250 MichaelD MichaelD Re: Appendix II Appendix II 3/4/2012 11:46:00 AM


In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,

Arthur S wrote:

>

> An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was

> also added. Many members thought they had to

> have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience

> similar to the one Bill W describes in the

> chapter "Bill's Story." The appendix emphasized

> that most spiritual experiences developed

> slowly over time and were of the "educational

> variety."





The Appendix did offer a guide for some form of time expectation, however, when

it says " what often takes place in a period of a few months, is more than what

can be accomplished with years of self discipline."



So it does note that, although the required spiritual awakening does not have to

be sudden, some results should be seen within a few months.


0 -1 0 0
8251 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: a man convinced against his will a man convinced against his will 3/3/2012 3:16:00 PM


RE: Origin of an AA quote: a man convinced against his will



Cf: The Artist's Concept, Big Book first edition, now included in

"Experience, Strength and Hope", page 130):



"... all that this study and research ever did for me was to show something

about why I drank. It substantiated a fact that I had known all along, that my

drinking was symptomatic. It did point out a road to better mental health but

it demanded something of me in return that I did not have to give. It asked of

me a power of self-will but it did not take into consideration that this

self-will was already drugged with poison - that I was very sick. Intuitively I

always knew that a person constrained to temperance by the domination of the

will is no more cured of his vice than if he were locked up in prison. I knew

that somehow, some way, the mental stream, the emotions, must be purified

before the right pathway could be followed."



BTW the chapter is headed with the quotation attributed to Herbert Spencer

which was later reprinted at the end of the Spiritual appendix in the Big Book.



- - - -



From: _Baileygc23@...

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010

Subject: Origin of an AA quote: a man convinced against his will



Schopenhauer (in his essays) says "A man convinced against his will is of the

same opinion still," and refers these words to a work by Samuel Butler called

Hudibras.



Here is Cliff Notes on the subject.



The origin of this old adage appears to go back a long time. So long, in fact,

that no one is really sure where it originally came from. It also appears in

many different forms in many different places.



Mary Wollstonecraft (1759-1797), the famous British writer and feminist (and

mother to the author of Frankenstein), included the quotation "Convince a man

against his will, He's of the same opinion still" in the notes to Chapter 5 of

her 1792 treatise, "A Vindication of the Rights of Woman." This adage is placed

in quotes, denoting that it wasn't original text, but without reference to the

source. So either she didn't know the origin of this saying or she assumed that

it was so popularly known that citing the source was unnecessary.



She might, however, have misquoted two lines from Samuel Butler's

(1612-1680) enormous 17th-century poem Hudibras. Part III, Canto iii, lines

547-550 read thus:



He that complies against his will

Is of his own opinion still

Which he may adhere to, yet disown,

For reasons to himself best known



Butler might have penned an original thought here, or he might have been

borrowing what was already an old saying even in his time. We'll probably never

know.



Read more:



http://www.cliffsnotes.com/Section/Who-wrote-A-man-convinced-against-his-will-is\

-of-the-same-opinion-still-.id-305408,articleId-41563.html#ixzz16oBzvOas




( http://www.cliffsnotes.com/Section/Who-wrote-

A-man-convinced-against-his-will-is-of-the-same-opinion-still-.

id-305408,articleId-41563.html#ixzz16oBzvOas )


0 -1 0 0
8252 joe joe Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 3/7/2012 6:14:00 AM


Bill Swegan has a fascinating AA story. He had great opportunities to uniquely

experience early AA. I found in the context of military history, that there is

more to the story. Ernest Kurtz wrote in Not-God regarding the American

historical context when AA itself began and grew, "By an almost too happy

historical coincidence, the self defined seed of Alcoholics Anonymous – Ebby's

visit to Clinton Street home of the then drinking Bill Wilson – was planted in

November 1934." (p.180) Ernie goes on to lay out the historical context of the

United States regarding religion, temperance, social, medical and psychological

thought in America at that time. AA probably could not have developed as it did

any other time or place in history.

Bill Swegan got sober at Mitchel AFB on July 5, 1948. The base had just been

designated the location for a newly formed Air Defense Command in March 1946.

The Air Force became a separate service in 1947 and the field became Mitchel Air

Force Base, just before Bill Swegan took his last drink. By 1949, Mitchel was

relieved of the responsibility for defending New York City because of the many

problems associated with operating tactical aircraft in the urban area. After

assuming a reserve mission, public pressure ultimately led to the field's

closure in June 1961 when the property was turned over to Nassau County for

redevelopment.

The location, Long Island, and the timing allowed Bill Swegan to meet Marty Mann

who would take an interest in him and his enthusiastic 12th step work. The

concurrent USAF history meant that there was a major Air Force Command on

Mitchel AFB from 1946-1949 when Bill was assigned there. With such a command

comes the brass to run it and the need for base operations support, such as

senior chaplains.

If Bill Swegan were to have sobered up any other time, his chance to serve as a

Chaplain's Assistant, made possible by the influence of Marty Mann, would not

have been possible. His sobriety, his speech to his unit, his meeting Marty Mann

through Yev Gardner, all occurred in the small window from 1948-1949 when there

would be a senior chaplain assigned to the Air Defense Command at Mitchel AFB.

Bill Swegan was not the only service member getting sober at the time. Several

others in the military found sobriety in the 1940's, many are recorded in the

Digital Archives of Grapevine and local AA archives. The difference in his story

is that he got the opportunity to attend the Yale School of Alcohol Studies,

work with Sister Ignatia, and participate in the first recorded alcoholism

treatment pilot attempted by the military. Had the timing of several factors

been different, he may not have had such an experience or helped all of those he

touched.


0 -1 0 0
8253 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst Boston Newspaper Boston Newspaper 3/7/2012 5:06:00 AM


Members



Does anyone know if the "historic fact" below is accurate?



March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted to get

well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury St., at 8 PM





In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst


0 -1 0 0
8254 Doug B. Doug B. Re: Change in Daily Reflections Change in Daily Reflections 3/6/2012 7:50:00 PM


The change came with the 5th printing of Daily Reflections. I'm not sure

why I was doing it, but I was checking the 29th, (as it is my wedding

anniversary) and out of the blue, the reading was different.



Doug B.

www.aahistory.com


0 -1 0 0
8255 Soberholic Soberholic Help with AA research papers? Help with AA research papers? 3/5/2012 4:00:00 AM


Greetings from Finland,

 

A Finnish AA friend of mine is working on his dissertation concerning AA. Last

time I saw him he asked for help. He is in desperate need of finding more

contemporary research papers on AA.

 

I'd be happy to help him but I cannot do it without help from my fellow members

in AAHL.

 

Links and references would be appreciated.

 

Yours Truly,

 

Soberholic



e-mail address soberholic@yahoo.com >

(soberholic at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
8256 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 3/7/2012 4:15:00 PM


Hey Joe, thanks for the words--like the rest of our fellowship, timing seems to

have been just precisely right for most of it -- I like the word synchronicity,

that's been used before ;/)



There has been a lot of coincidences over the years also -- Norm


0 -1 0 0
8257 J.BARRY Murtaugh J.BARRY Murtaugh Re: Help with AA research papers? Help with AA research papers? 3/7/2012 5:48:00 PM


There are several sources who check in with this group.

Hope they can help.



I subscribe to updates from:



*Alcohol and Drugs History Society*



which you can find by any search engine.



http://alcoholanddrugshistorysociety.wordpress.com



but it may not be exactly what you are looking for....



bear


0 -1 0 0
8258 Dolores Dolores Re: Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model 3/8/2012 11:55:00 AM


Greetings,



It is interesting to read about the alcohol treatment program in the States.

After the Hughes Act of Congress, and Dr.Jack Norris's visits to Germany 1970,

treatment centers were set up in Germany, the first being in Bad Cannstadt near

Stuttgart.



I believe Marty Mann was very influential in getting the alcohol treatment

centers on US Army and Air Force Bases in Germany started.



Until then , the AA meetings on the Bases were held in the Chaplain's office or

the Doctor's office.



Is there anything written about this to read and if so where can I read it?



Dolores





----- Original Message -----

From: Glenn Chesnut

To: AAHistoryLovers group

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 8:56 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach

Model



Chapter 16. Twelfth Stepping the Military

http://hindsfoot.org/help16.pdf



Chapter 17. Alcoholics with Gold Braid

http://hindsfoot.org/help17.pdf



(Taken from Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of

Alcoholism (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html )



The Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment was first developed at

Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953-1961 by William E. Swegan

and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon ("Jolly") West.



In Chapter 16, Nancy Olson describes the further development of this type of

AA-related alcoholism treatment program by psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Zuska and

Navy Commander Dick Jewell at the Long Beach Naval Station in California in the

years 1965 and following. (Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link

between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program.)



Dr. Zuska, although not an alcoholic himself, was beloved at a deep personal

level by several generations of AA people in that part of California because of

all he had done to help alcoholics -- hundreds and hundreds of them owed their

lives to him, and they knew it.



Betty Ford, wife of U.S. President Ford, was sent to the Long Beach treatment

program to get sober, and U.S. President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was

also sent there because of its outstanding record in getting alcoholics sober.



Then Nancy goes on in Chapter 17 to describe the hearings before the U.S.

Senate subcommittee on alcoholism and drug abuse in the U.S. military in 1970.

Also more on Joe Zuska and the Navy alcoholism treatment program which he

developed at Long Beach.


0 -1 0 0
8259 crog1@aol.com crog1@a... Re: Help with AA research papers? Help with AA research papers? 3/8/2012 11:09:00 AM


From a research standpoint you may have tried this one:



==========================================



(1) National Library of Medicine - National Institutes of Health

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/



If not, they have a very good online help and could help refer you to even more

stuff that would be at least AA related.



==========================================



(2) Nat't Inst of Mental Health would be another possible resource:



NIMH · Home http://www.nimh.nih.gov/index.shtml



==========================================



(3) Another: Home | National Institute on Drug Abuse

http://www.drugabuse.gov/



==========================================



(4) And finally:

National Inst on Alcohol Abuse & Alcoholism

NIAAA Home

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/Pages/default.aspx



These last two appear will be merged into a National Institute on Substance

abuse et al in the near future.



Again, these you may have been in contact with. If not they certainly

might lend themselves to helping you with your AA research paper. Of course

there is always AA New York's HQ.



Good luck....







******************************************



From Glenn C. and murtaughjbarry, also see:



(5) POINTS: THE BLOG OF THE ALCOHOL AND DRUGS HISTORY SOCIETY



From Glenn C. (glennccc@sbcglobal.net)



http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/



******************************************



(6) ALCOHOL AND DRUGS HISTORY SOCIETY



In a message dated 3/7/2012 8:36:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com writes: I subscribe to updates from:



http://alcoholanddrugshistorysociety.wordpress.com/



******************************************


0 -1 0 0
8260 Roger Roger Thoughts on Bill Swegan #2 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #2 3/8/2012 6:49:00 AM


The timing of Bill Swegan's assignment as Chaplain's Assistant also fit into a

small window of Air Force history that probably could not have happened any

other time or place. In 1947, Harry Truman signed the National Security Act

separating the Army and Air Forces. At first, Army chaplains and assistants

continued to serve the new Service and both opposed a separate chaplaincy. As

the Air Force matured, in August 1948, the first USAF Chief of Chaplains,

Charles Carpenter convinced General Spaatz who ordered the institution of a

separate AF chaplaincy on May 10, 1949.



Chaplain Carpenter also believed service members assigned as chaplain assistants

were seen as basically clerk-typists and pushed for a defined career field for

them. He persuaded AF leaders to establish a specific Service Specialty Number

(SSN) for chaplain assistants. It was because of his efforts, in March 1949,

Headquarters USAF directed that those enlisted men that were Personal Affairs

Consultants and Chaplain Assistants be screened and, if qualified, reclassified

as Welfare Specialist (SSN 534).



(Source: History of the United States Air Force Chaplain Assistant by James R

Patten, CMSgt, USAF (Retired))



This piece of Air Force history intersects coincidentally with Bill Swegan and

Mary Mann. The Air Force was developing their new identity as its own service

and working to define the roles and responsibilities of, among other

specialties, the Chaplain's Assistant. This provided the perfect timing to allow

Marty Mann to use her connections to get Bill Swegan assigned full time to the

Chaplain's Assistant position in 1948-49. The local command at Mitchel AFB were

probably open to this experiment based on several factors: Marty's persuasion,

Bill's enthusiasm for AA and his working with others, and the hopes of helping

known cases of alcoholism.



However a key factor that must be considered is that the role of the Chaplain's

Assistant in the new Air Force was loosely defined and the opportunity to assign

one enlisted man to the position was a low risk. At worst, he could be no value

added to the position and make no positive impact on alcoholism on the base. At

best, he could achieve results and assist the Chaplain in administrative,

religious, and moral programs. The latter seems to be closer to what happened.

He obviously served his Chaplain well because he later bent the rules and

convinced the command to award him a grant from a Morale, Welfare, and

Recreation account for expenses to attend the Yale Summer program on alcohol

studies.



The timing here of the Air Force chaplain's assistant history and Bill Swegan's

career are "an almost too happy historical coincidence." Good thing that Bill

Swegan sobered up at the time and place that he did. But then, isn't that true

of all of us.


0 -1 0 0
8261 Charlie C Charlie C AA research help AA research help 3/9/2012 6:33:00 AM


As a librarian let me get a plug in for my profession and suggest that for

research help the fellow in Finland go to a library :-) Most libraries are open

to the public, and librarians tend to be oriented towards helping people.



Charlie Cowling

Clarkson, New York

 



"Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at a distance but to do what

lies clearly at hand." Thomas Carlyle


0 -1 0 0
8262 Roger Roger Thoughts on Bill Swegan #3 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #3 3/10/2012 9:49:00 PM


I have not yet acquired a copy of the 1956 American Journal of Psychiatry

article to learn more about what Dr. West wrote about the Lackland pilot program

(if you have it, please email). However, I have some theories worthy of further

exploration in the context of military history. While I cannot dispute any

claims of success the program had I cannot find any indication that the Lackland

treatment program was more than a pilot program that did not continue. My

theory is that even if the program had convinced defense budget decision makers

that it had value, other national strategic interests took priority.



According to United States budget records, due to the spike in defense spending

during World War II, defense spending rose to 42% of GDP in 1945. Following the

war, it decreased rapidly to a low of 7.33% of GDP in 1948, then doubling to 15%

at the height of the Korean War in 1953. According to a RAND study the U.S. Air

Force purchased more aircraft in the five year time block from 1952-56 than it

has from 1957 to the present day.



So my theory, based on personal experience with the Defense Department for over

23 years and the research above, is that USAF spending priorities required a

focus on aircraft procurement and operations in Korea. Alcoholism treatment was

not the priority for resources. It has been my experience that the Defense

Department has been a follower of the larger society when it comes to treating

alcoholism or addiction. Military residential treatment followed private sector

hospital models, and likewise have been predominantly transformed to inpatient

programs in most areas. One constant based on my observation and those I have

worked with in Europe, Hawaii, and the Continental United States – the patient's

likelihood of success seems directly proportional to the availability of a

strong AA group at or near their base following discharge.


0 -1 0 0
8263 Bill Lash Bill Lash RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/11/2012 9:26:00 AM


Roy,

Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title

page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by

yourself)...



Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:

1) Words - 3,021

2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931

3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938

4) Paragraphs - 56



The Doctor's Opinion:

1) 2,143

2) 10,313

3) 12,438

4) 53



Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):

1) 46,189

2) 209,361

3) 255,359

4) 759





Just Love,

Barefoot Bill









-----Original Message-----

From: notify@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of

royslev

Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM

To: Bill L.

Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages



Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word

count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?



I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a

new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but

e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words there are

in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title

page and table of contents until Vision For You?



If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know what the

results are?



Regards

Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78

royslev@verizon.net (home email)


0 -1 0 0
8264 jax760 jax760 Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/12/2012 1:59:00 PM


Would anyone happen to have access to or a copy of this essay by Alexis Carrel?

I believe it was published in the Readers Digest circa 1938/39



Thanks



John B



MY E-MAIL: jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)


0 -1 0 0
8265 James Bliss James Bliss RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 7:01:00 AM


For the top words over 1000:

THE 1705

TO 1580

OF 1313

WE 1129

A 1094

AND 1046





GOD 120





ALCOHOHOLICS 1

ALCOHOL 42

ALCOHOLIC 176

ALCOHOLIC* 1

ALCOHOLICS 96

ALCOHOLIC'S 3

ALCOHOLICS' 1

ALCOHOLISM 52





This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,

period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several

different iterations.



I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages

and Doctors Opinion for these counts.



Jim



On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:

>

> Roy,

> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title

> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by

> yourself)...

>

> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:

> 1) Words - 3,021

> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931

> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938

> 4) Paragraphs - 56

>

> The Doctor's Opinion:

> 1) 2,143

> 2) 10,313

> 3) 12,438

> 4) 53

>

> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):

> 1) 46,189

> 2) 209,361

> 3) 255,359

> 4) 759

>

> Just Love,

> Barefoot Bill

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: notify@yahoogroups.com

> On

> Behalf Of

> royslev

> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM

> To: Bill L.

> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages

>

> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word

> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?

>

> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a

> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but

> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words

> there are

> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title

> page and table of contents until Vision For You?

>

> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know

> what the

> results are?

>

> Regards

> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78

> royslev@verizon.net (home email)


0 -1 0 0
8266 Kimball ROWE Kimball ROWE RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 6:43:00 PM


I’ll eventually get a handle on this “cut and paste†thing down. Seems

like a lot of God talk in Bill’s Story, We Agnostics, How it Works and Into

Action.



Word/Phrase Total Preface Foreword 1 Foreword 2 Foreword 3 Foreword 4

Doctors Opinion Bill's Story There is a Solution More About Alcoholism We

Agnostics How it Works Into Action Working with Others To Wives The Family

Afterward To Employers A Vision for You

God 114 2 11 5 22 22 18 8 8 8 10

All Powerful Creator 1 1

All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence 1 1

Bridge of Reason 1 1

Broad Highway 1 1

Christ 1 1

Creation 1 1

Creative Intelligence 2 1 1

Creator 10 1 2 1 1 5

Czar of the Heavens 1 1

Director 1 1

Employer 1 1

Father 1 1

Father of Light 1 1

Fellowship of the Spirit 1 1

God as we understood Him 3 3

God of Reason 1 1

Great Fact 1 1

Great Reality 2 1 1

He 15 3 1 3 7 1

Higher Power 1 1

Him 21 4 4 8 2 3

His 9 3 5 1

Maker 1 1

New Land 1 1

New found Friend 1 1

One who has all power 1 1

our Maker, as we understood Him 1 1

Power 4 4

Power greater than **self 14 2 10 1 1

Presence and Power of God 1 1

Presence of God 2 2

Presence of Infinite Power and Love 1 1

Principal 1 1

Realm of Spirit 1 1

Reason 2 2

Road of Happy Destiny 1 1

Spirit 1 1

Spirit of Nature 1 1

Spirit of the Universe 4 1 2 1

Supreme Being 2 2

Thee 2 1 1

Thou 1 1

Thy 4 2 2

Thy Love 1 1

Thy Power 1 1

Thy Way 1 1

Universal Mind 1 1

Total 242 0 0 2 0 0 0 32 8 1 63 60 32 9 8 8 0 19





From: roweke@msn.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:23 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages



God gets a bigger billing if you consider variants:



Higher Power 1

Him 21

His 9

Maker 1

New Land 1

New found Friend 1

One who has all power 1

our Maker, as we understood Him 1

Power 4

Power greater than **self 14

Presence and Power of God 1

Presence of God 2

Presence of Infinite Power and Love 1

Principal 1

Realm of Spirit 1

Reason 2

Road of Happy Destiny 1

Spirit 1

Spirit of Nature 1

Spirit of the Universe 4

Supreme Being 2

Thee 2

Thou 1

Thy 4

Thy Love 1

Thy Power 1

Thy Way 1

Universal Mind 1

Total 242





Note: words like Power, or Reason when in the middle of a sentence and upper

case do not refer to power or reason.



From: James Bliss

Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages





For the top words over 1000:

THE 1705

TO 1580

OF 1313

WE 1129

A 1094

AND 1046



GOD 120



ALCOHOHOLICS 1

ALCOHOL 42

ALCOHOLIC 176

ALCOHOLIC* 1

ALCOHOLICS 96

ALCOHOLIC'S 3

ALCOHOLICS' 1

ALCOHOLISM 52



This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,

period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several

different iterations.



I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages

and Doctors Opinion for these counts.



Jim



On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:

>

> Roy,

> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title

> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by

> yourself)...

>

> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:

> 1) Words - 3,021

> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931

> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938

> 4) Paragraphs - 56

>

> The Doctor's Opinion:

> 1) 2,143

> 2) 10,313

> 3) 12,438

> 4) 53

>

> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):

> 1) 46,189

> 2) 209,361

> 3) 255,359

> 4) 759

>

> Just Love,

> Barefoot Bill

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On

> Behalf Of

> royslev

> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM

> To: Bill L.

> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages

>

> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word

> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?

>

> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a

> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but

> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words

> there are

> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title

> page and table of contents until Vision For You?

>

> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know

> what the

> results are?

>

> Regards

> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78

> mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email)













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
8267 Kimball ROWE Kimball ROWE RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 6:30:00 PM


oops, forgot to include the total line for ALCOHOLISM:



Alcoholism Alcoholism 56

Alcoholism Afflicted 4

Alcoholism Allergy 3

Alcoholism Craves 1

Alcoholism Craving 8

Alcoholism Disease 1

Alcoholism Ill 11

Alcoholism Illness 12

Alcoholism Insane 7

Alcoholism Insanity 8

Alcoholism Malady 5

Alcoholism Obsession 3

Alcoholism Sick 27

Alcoholism Suffer 10

Alcoholism Suffering 10

Alcoholism Total 166







From: roweke@msn.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:28 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages



Variations of ALCOHOLISM (Preface to 164):



Alcoholism Alcoholism 56

Alcoholism Afflicted 4

Alcoholism Allergy 3

Alcoholism Craves 1

Alcoholism Craving 8

Alcoholism Disease 1

Alcoholism Ill 11

Alcoholism Illness 12

Alcoholism Insane 7

Alcoholism Insanity 8

Alcoholism Malady 5

Alcoholism Obsession 3

Alcoholism Sick 27

Alcoholism Suffer 10

Alcoholism Suffering 10







From: James Bliss

Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages





For the top words over 1000:

THE 1705

TO 1580

OF 1313

WE 1129

A 1094

AND 1046



GOD 120



ALCOHOHOLICS 1

ALCOHOL 42

ALCOHOLIC 176

ALCOHOLIC* 1

ALCOHOLICS 96

ALCOHOLIC'S 3

ALCOHOLICS' 1

ALCOHOLISM 52



This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,

period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several

different iterations.



I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages

and Doctors Opinion for these counts.



Jim



On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:

>

> Roy,

> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title

> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by

> yourself)...

>

> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:

> 1) Words - 3,021

> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931

> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938

> 4) Paragraphs - 56

>

> The Doctor's Opinion:

> 1) 2,143

> 2) 10,313

> 3) 12,438

> 4) 53

>

> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):

> 1) 46,189

> 2) 209,361

> 3) 255,359

> 4) 759

>

> Just Love,

> Barefoot Bill

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On

> Behalf Of

> royslev

> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM

> To: Bill L.

> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages

>

> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word

> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?

>

> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a

> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but

> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words

> there are

> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title

> page and table of contents until Vision For You?

>

> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know

> what the

> results are?

>

> Regards

> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78

> mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email)













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
8268 Stephen Gentile Stephen Gentile RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 4:09:00 PM


Time to reprogram.



I find the word God 138 times in the fourth edition

133 times in the second



This is through the simple search button in my .PDF viewer.



Steve G

NJ


0 -1 0 0
8269 Kimball ROWE Kimball ROWE RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 6:28:00 PM


Variations of ALCOHOLISM (Preface to 164):



Alcoholism Alcoholism 56

Alcoholism Afflicted 4

Alcoholism Allergy 3

Alcoholism Craves 1

Alcoholism Craving 8

Alcoholism Disease 1

Alcoholism Ill 11

Alcoholism Illness 12

Alcoholism Insane 7

Alcoholism Insanity 8

Alcoholism Malady 5

Alcoholism Obsession 3

Alcoholism Sick 27

Alcoholism Suffer 10

Alcoholism Suffering 10







From: James Bliss

Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages





For the top words over 1000:

THE 1705

TO 1580

OF 1313

WE 1129

A 1094

AND 1046



GOD 120



ALCOHOHOLICS 1

ALCOHOL 42

ALCOHOLIC 176

ALCOHOLIC* 1

ALCOHOLICS 96

ALCOHOLIC'S 3

ALCOHOLICS' 1

ALCOHOLISM 52



This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,

period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several

different iterations.



I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages

and Doctors Opinion for these counts.



Jim



On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:

>

> Roy,

> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title

> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by

> yourself)...

>

> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:

> 1) Words - 3,021

> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931

> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938

> 4) Paragraphs - 56

>

> The Doctor's Opinion:

> 1) 2,143

> 2) 10,313

> 3) 12,438

> 4) 53

>

> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):

> 1) 46,189

> 2) 209,361

> 3) 255,359

> 4) 759

>

> Just Love,

> Barefoot Bill

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On

> Behalf Of

> royslev

> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM

> To: Bill L.

> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages

>

> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word

> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?

>

> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a

> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but

> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words

> there are

> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title

> page and table of contents until Vision For You?

>

> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know

> what the

> results are?

>

> Regards

> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78

> mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email)













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
8270 Kimball ROWE Kimball ROWE RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 6:23:00 PM


God gets a bigger billing if you consider variants:



Higher Power 1

Him 21

His 9

Maker 1

New Land 1

New found Friend 1

One who has all power 1

our Maker, as we understood Him 1

Power 4

Power greater than **self 14

Presence and Power of God 1

Presence of God 2

Presence of Infinite Power and Love 1

Principal 1

Realm of Spirit 1

Reason 2

Road of Happy Destiny 1

Spirit 1

Spirit of Nature 1

Spirit of the Universe 4

Supreme Being 2

Thee 2

Thou 1

Thy 4

Thy Love 1

Thy Power 1

Thy Way 1

Universal Mind 1

Total 242





Note: words like Power, or Reason when in the middle of a sentence and upper

case do not refer to power or reason.



From: James Bliss

Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages





For the top words over 1000:

THE 1705

TO 1580

OF 1313

WE 1129

A 1094

AND 1046



GOD 120



ALCOHOHOLICS 1

ALCOHOL 42

ALCOHOLIC 176

ALCOHOLIC* 1

ALCOHOLICS 96

ALCOHOLIC'S 3

ALCOHOLICS' 1

ALCOHOLISM 52



This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,

period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several

different iterations.



I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages

and Doctors Opinion for these counts.



Jim



On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:

>

> Roy,

> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title

> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by

> yourself)...

>

> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:

> 1) Words - 3,021

> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931

> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938

> 4) Paragraphs - 56

>

> The Doctor's Opinion:

> 1) 2,143

> 2) 10,313

> 3) 12,438

> 4) 53

>

> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):

> 1) 46,189

> 2) 209,361

> 3) 255,359

> 4) 759

>

> Just Love,

> Barefoot Bill

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On

> Behalf Of

> royslev

> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM

> To: Bill L.

> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages

>

> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word

> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?

>

> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a

> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but

> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words

> there are

> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title

> page and table of contents until Vision For You?

>

> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know

> what the

> results are?

>

> Regards

> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78

> mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email)













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


0 -1 0 0
8271 B B hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/15/2012 12:16:00 PM


A question was raised by a friend of mine recently and really made me pause for

thought... Were there one hundred or thousand(s)? My question comes from

passages located in the Big Book itself.



One Hundred?



It was now time, the struggling groups thought, to place their message and

unique experience before the world. This determination bore fruit in the spring

of 1939 by the publication of this vo...lume. The membership had then reached

about 100 men and women. –Forward to the 2nd Edition



"Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred

of them had followed successfully. BB p.42, More About Alcoholism



This man and over one hundred others appear to have recovered. BB xxv(xxiii),

The Doctor's Opinion



We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have

recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. BB xiii, Foreword to

First Edition



Or One Thousand?



In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our

families. BB p.15, Bill's Story



We of Alcoholics Anonymous, know thousands of men and women who were once just

as hopeless as Bill. Nearly all have recovered. They have solved the drink

problem. BB p.17, There is a Solution



All of these passages come from the book as it appeared at the beginning, so

changes in membership numbers should not be reflected, unless there is an

historical twist I am not aware of. I know in the end there is some talk about

"one hundred" being an approximation, but I am somewhat confused by the

appearance of hundred and thousand. Any thoughts?


0 -1 0 0
8272 Dolores Dolores Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 3/15/2012 1:06:00 PM


Hi Roger, do you have any information on the Treatments faccilites in Bad

Cannstatt and the others in West Germany?. They were started aaround 1974. I

know that Marty Mann was involved with these Treatment facilities. I would like

to add this to the CER history. Thanks Dolores


0 -1 0 0
8273 Roger Roger Senate Testimony on Alcoholism in Military 1970 Senate Testimony on Alcoholism in Military 1970 3/15/2012 8:29:00 AM


Many of us know of Jim B. and the gold braid on his Navy Captain uniform from

Nancy Olson's book and the excerpt on hindsfoot.org. I found a quote in the

Senate transcript equally interesting. Jim S. also an AA member testifying

before the sub-committee was in the Army 20 years and worked with nuclear

weapons at the peak of his drinking days. He had a classic response to Senator

Hughes when answering the question below.



SENTATOR HUGHES: Would you say the nuclear warhead could be in the hands of

alcoholics on occasion?



JIM S.: The nuclear warhead was definitely in the hands of one alcoholic sir. I

can speak for one.



Does anyone know more of Jim S.? Is he still with us by any chance? The other

two AA members who testified, Hal M. and Jim B. are mentioned in earlier posts

but I can't find anything on Jim S.

Thank you all for your service!

Roger W.


0 -1 0 0
8274 bill@athenararebooks.com bill@a... Info on Bill W Documentary (including Trailer link) Info on Bill W Documentary (including Trailer link) 3/14/2012 11:30:00 AM


We now have some details on Bill W., the new documentary on the life of

Bill Wilson produced by Page 124 Productions.



It will be shown at the Cleveland International Film Festival (CIFF) in

late March at the following times and location:



Monday March 26, 7:15 PM (Plaza Cinemas at Chapel Hill, Cuyahoga Falls

-- an Akron showing / not in Cleveland)



Tuesday March 27, 4:10 PM (Tower City Cinemas in Cleveland, with a

panel discussion after the screening)



Wednesday March 28, 11:15 AM (Tower City Cinemas in Cleveland)



If you can make any of these showings, details about buying tickets are

available on the CIFF website:

http://www.clevelandfilm.org/festival/films?search_text=bill+w

http://www.clevelandfilm.org/festival/films?search_text=bill+w>



The creative team has not yet announced any definite plans for the

distribution of this film, but the DVD will be available June 10th. You

can let them know that you want a copy when it's available if you go

to www.page124.com/dvd/ http://www.page124.com/dvd/>



More information about the documentary (along with a look at the

TRAILER) can also be found at www.billw.com http://www.billw.com/> .


0 -1 0 0
8275 gary gary March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs 3/14/2012 1:22:00 PM


We will celebrate the 10 year anniversary for this group on March 30, 2012 -

cake & candles anyone?



Thank you to all who have kept this group going, and contributed to the success

for the past ten years - I know this is one of the first things I check each

morning - have used the information found here to visit many of our AA history

sites across Canada and the US of A.



- - - -



TWELFTH ANNIVERSARY -- MARCH 16, 2000 - MARCH 16, 2012



From the present moderator: as a technicality -- and Lord knows how much all of

us in this web group love, and live and breathe for, teensy and obscure

technical quibbles !!! -- the anniversary of the group will be in March, but

tomorrow -- on March 16 -- and it will be the 12th anniversary.



The group was originally started by Nancy Olson under the name "AAHistoryBuffs":



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryBuffs/

March 16, 2000 is the founding date given in the left-hand column of the home

page. The first still-surviving messages were put on the Message Board on March

21, 2000. (Nancy went through both the AAHB and the AAHL on occasion, deleting

messages that were on trivial topics, or simply repeated earlier messages, or

were later shown to have gotten their information badly wrong.)



But in Spring 2002, Nancy Olson changed her e-mail to another provider, and then

discovered to her horror (a) that the Yahoo group system would not recognize her

new e-mail address, and (b) that her old e-mail provider would not give her that

old address back. So no one could any longer gain access to the management

section of the Buffs, and keep the group operating properly.



So she started the AAHistoryLovers, and then she -- along with Fiona Dodd, of

County Mayo in Ireland, who has done an extraordinary amount of work on the

AAHistoryLovers over the years -- selected the most important Buffs messages,

and copied and pasted them into Lovers messages.



I have just finished using a program called PG Offline to download ALL of the

first ten years of AAHistoryLovers messages, from 2002 to 2011. They download in

tabular form as Microsoft Access data files.



I then used merge to transfer this tabular data to continuous MS Word files --

producing ten MS Word documents, one per year, each one around a thousand or so

pages long.



Unfortunately, the messages are full of the kind of web page coding used for

HTML files and other similar online documents, to such a point that many

sections are nearly totally unreadable. Codes like:









FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial">







Here are a couple of examples of what a lot of the MS Word version looks like

when it is first converted from MS Access:



============================================

++++Message 753+ Jean W. -- 40 years

From: pennington2 1/2/2003 4:21:00 PM





Jean Mullry of Bellevue, Nebraska died yesterday (01/01/3)

at
5:30am. It was also her 40th A.A. Birthday --- her pigeon Peg

M.
had given her her chip the evening before. There will be

a
memorial service, yet to be announced (she donated her body

to
science --- in service even in death). Her children and

other
family members were with her when she

passed.

This year is the 60th anniversary of AA in Area 41 and

Jean was
interviewed for that occasion since she was one of the

first
woman members in the Omaha-Bellevue area. She was

for
several early years, secretary on the Central Office

committee.

She always signed her notes at the end with the

words: "And
peace and harmony

prevailed."


p2


pennington2@yahoo.com




============================================

++++Message 756+ Request - Local A.A. History

From: Jim 1/6/2003 2:35:00 AM





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th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_zh&tt=url
" target="_blank">

color="#0033cc">

color="#0000ff">Chinese

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th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_fr&tt=url
">

color="#0000ff">French

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th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_de&tt=url
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color="#0000ff">German

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th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_it&tt=url
">

color="#0000ff">Italian

color="#000000">- http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor\

th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_ja&tt=url
">

color="#0000ff">Japanese

color="#000000">- http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor\

th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_ko&tt=url
">

color="#0000ff">Korean

color="#000000">- http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor\

th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_pt&tt=url
">

color="#0000ff">Portuguese

color="#000000">- http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkwor\

th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_es&tt=url
">

color="#0000ff">Spanish

color="#000000">- http://fets3.freetranslation.com:5081/?Language=English/Norwegian&Url=\

silkworth%2Enet%2FEmail%5FTranslation%2Ehtml&Sequence=core
">

color="#0000ff">Norwegian

color="#000000">- http://translation.paralink.com/url_mode/urlbot.asp?direction=131073&t\

emplate=Default&autotranslate=true&url=http://silkworth.net/Email_Transl\

ation.html
">Russian

color="#000000">- http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate?wl_lp=EN-nl&wl_glossary=gl1& \

;wl_documenttype=dt1&wl_fl=2&wl_rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_\

Translation.html&wl_url=http://silkworth.net/Email_Translation.html&wl_g\

_table=-3
">Dutch

color="#000000">- http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate?wl_lp=EN-el&wl_glossary=gl1& \

;wl_documenttype=dt1&wl_fl=2&wl_rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_\

Translation.html&wl_url=http://silkworth.net/Email_Translation.html&wl_g\

_table=-3
">Greek

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=bul&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Bulgarian

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=cro&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Croatian

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=che&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
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Czech

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=dan&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
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Danish

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o=fin&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Finnish

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=hun&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Hungarian

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=ice&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Icelandic

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=tag&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Filipino

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=pol&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Polish

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=rom&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Romanian

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=sel&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Serbian

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=slo&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Slovenian

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=swe&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Swedish

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=wel&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Welsh

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=tur&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Turkish

color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\

o=ltt&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\

Latin




color="#000000">


color="#0033cc">In an attempt to carry the message and

preserve general localized AA histories, we have begun an ongoing project

titled, "Growth of A.A." around the world — to bring all the worlds localized AA

histories to one central location on the World Wide Web.

What a wonderful

experience it would be to be able to read about the history of any Group's,

Counties, State's, Provences, Territory's, Republic's, and Countries localized

A.A. history from a single location.

We would very much like to add your

local AA history to the Global Map on Silkworth.net.

We invite your

participation.

The Global Map:
http://silkworth.net/image_map/world.html" target="_blank">

color="#0033cc">

color="#0033cc">http://silkworth.net/image_map/world.html



Yours in service,
The Silkworth Team,
http://silkworth.net/sitemap.html" target="_blank">

color="#0033cc">http://silkworth.net/sitemap.html



color="#000000">* Please foreward this email to any possible interested parties

/ individules knowledgable of local A.A. history.

* This is a Global

email from

Silkworth.net.




< \

/tr>


Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com"

target="_blank">http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on

the Web!


============================================



So I am having to go through the messages now, using search and replace to

either delete these codes or replace them with MS Word commands. It'll take a

while, but after it's been done, anybody who wants to will be able to have a

copy on a CD disk of all of the old AAHistoryLovers in the form of easily

readable MS Word documents.



Yours in the fellowship,

Glenn Chesnut


0 -1 0 0
8276 Michael Margetis Michael Margetis Traditions Question Traditions Question 3/16/2012 5:16:00 PM


Hi all,



Why was the "short form" of the Traditions written? Was the

"short form" intended to replace the long form? Or simply

provide an alternate, briefer version?



At the 1950 Conference I understand that Bill paraphrased the

traditions, so neither the short or long form was actually presented.

Was Bill's paraphrasing simply a supplement to written material? Was

the vote to accept Bill's paraphrasing or a handout that had either

(or both?) the long and short form?



As if I haven't asked enough questions, in a previous post on

traditions it stated that the 1958 General Service Conference approved

removing the word "honest" from the term "honest desire to stop

drinking" in the AA Preamble. I was under the impression that the

Grapevine copyrighted the preamble. Does the conference approve or

disapprove Grapevine material? (I actually know they do not, but

that's what confuses me . . . .) Is it that they did in 1958 but at

some time later that changed?



Thanks,



Mike Margetis

Brunswick, Maryland


0 -1 0 0
8277 martinnfisher martinnfisher Chet R -- It Might Have Been Worse -- not WW II but WW I vet Chet R -- It Might Have Been Worse -- not WW II but WW I vet 3/20/2012 5:03:00 AM


To those who compile the biographies of the authors of the Personal Stories in

the Big Book:



There is an error in the biography of Chet R., author of "It Might Have Been

Worse" (Part II, story (9) in the 4th Edition, p.348).



It is presumed by the biographers that Chet's reference to "wartime service"

refers to World War II. In fact, in the original story (2nd Edition, p.373) he

says "Then there was World War I to interrupt my plans". This has been edited

by AA in 4th Edition to "Then there was wartime service to interrupt my plans",

obscuring the reference.



I thought someone should know so the biography can be amended.



Martin



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator: the only biography of Chet R. which I could find in a

Google search was this one, which does in fact incorrectly surmise that Chet was

a Second World War veteran instead of a First World War veteran:



http://silkworth.net/aabiography/chetrude.html



"Wartime service in the Army (presumably World War II) interrupted his plans for

success. After the war he continued his education, married and had a family, and

got started in business."


0 -1 0 0
8278 edgarc@aol.com edgarc@a... Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/4/2012 7:02:00 AM


commenrts on Message #8249 from Les Cole, jax760, and Glenn Chesnut



Edgar



====================

LES COLE wrote: "March 3, 2012 Hello Edgar: I am very intrigued by your post.

When I was writing my new book about Rogers Burnham (see www.LesCole-AA.com) I

searched for information about Mark and after difficulty found a copy of "Rural

Free Delivery" at the University of Vermont Library. They sent it to me as a

loan and I found his poem "Lem's plan" very interesting concerning the Vermont

culture. I do not recall reading what you quote below. Can you tell us where you

got your book, and if it can become available somewhere?"

====================



EDGAR's comment: A copy of Rural Free Delivery was given me by Ron F, a

frequenter of this site, and a long-time AA whose program I greatly admire.

As to availability, you might check EBay or Amazon regularly for used copies.

Other than that, I have no idea where it might be available, but you can see a

complete online ebook at

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=123&seq=5&view=image&size=100&id=uc1.\

b248591




====================

LES COLE wrote: I can't believe he would be, or write about, being a murderer!

====================



EDGAR's comment: How many times have you read "He was a nice boy, happy and

respectful! I can't believe he shot 27 people from the bell tower of the

Episcopal church"?



The full quote from page 123 of my copy, (second printing, first edition,

Stephen Daye Press, 1942, Brattleboro, NY no ISBN) is:



"I were always a tender hearted critter, I never could see no dumb creature or

woman suffer on no account. I ups with the squirrel rifle and shoots Jeanne --

puts her out of her misery! Now she sleeps beneath the sour apple tree in my

family buryin' ground right long side of my four regular wives and some mail

order ones."



====================

JAX760 wrote: "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle

name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is

buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House.

====================



====================

WIKIPEDIA article says: Mark A Whalon (1886–1956) was an Irish-American

author. Whalon was close friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics

Anonymous, and said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life.

====================



====================

FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: ????? Was there more than one author named Mark Whalon

????? One of them an "Irish-American author" and the other one -- a totally

different person -- a New Englander who was the local rural mail man in Vermont

and was a friend of Bill Wilson, Roger Burnham, and the young Les Cole?



Facebook for example lists seven Glenn Chesnut's in the United States, one of

them an architect in California, another one a chiropractor in Montgomery,

Alabama, etc. And there's yet another Glenn F. Chesnut who -- according to

Google -- died on March 1, 1976, and I know for a fact that this man's body is

supposed to lie buried in the cemetery in Barbourville, Kentucky.



Of course, this was in the daylight. After the sun sets, strange things have

been known to happen in cemeteries way back in those hills .... [in the

background, eerie music followed by a sinister and foreboding laugh]. Does this

perhaps mean that the moderator of the AAHistoryLovers is actually a zombie,

lumbering along and trying to catch you, in order to eat your brains?

====================



EDGAR's comment: How is he identified on his headstone? Mark A or John Mark

??????????????????


0 -1 0 0
8279 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/22/2012 2:05:00 PM


You can see Mark Whalon's complete book online at



http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=123&seq=5&view=image&size=100&id=uc1.\

b248591




Anyone with a computer can read the book there, one page at a time, and download

and save each page as a PDF file.



Or (if you are connected with one of the partner universities and have the right

pass code) you can unload the entire book as a single PDF file and save that

single large file on your computer's hard drive.



The story we are talking about is from one of the book's chapters, entitled

"Hankerin' Pinein' an' Romance!" and is a story about a young woman artist who

asked the rural mail man to pose for her while she painted his picture, and in

the process fell helplessly in love with him. I have copied out the complete

text here from pages 122 to 123 of Mark Whalon's book:



===============================================

[page 122] women still lingered on. When she was puttin' on the finishing

touches I'd stroll over and pat her on the head and mebby my whiskers did kinda

brush her hair etc. I excused all this to myself by tellin' myself that I did it

to draw out of her the best that was in her in Art.



I noticed she kept, what she called "doing me over" and I noticed every time she

"did me over" she made me handsomer -- and I kept on with my durned fol-de-rol a

talkin' to her. She put back lots of hair on my head and she put a young eager

lusty look in my eye that really wa'n't thar at all. Why, she even combed my

whiskers and took out that yellow streak down the middle of 'em.



Wal, anyhow the picture got finished one day and I said to Jeanne, "What you

going to name it?" She kinda sniffled and bawled and laughed all at once and

said "I'll call it 'Vermont Don Keotee'." I never did now what she meant by that

name but I'm of the opinion it means somethin' Romantic.



I'd like to stop right here and have you think everything ended right there but

it didn't. Thar's a mighty touchin' sequel I've got to hitch on.



You see Jeanne couldn't get rid of that fancy she'd took to me when she finished

the picture. It growed on her! She haunted me! Pebbles rattled [page 123] on my

roof at night and lonely howls riz out of the cedar swamp. When I driv along my

mail route I see her a gazin' out of the bushes at me with eyes like a dyin'

calf. It got to be terible for both of us.



I got desperate: -- wanted to get away from it all. I got Ham Hadden to run the

mail route for me and I went way back of the mountain squirrelhuntin'. I got a

lot of squirrels. The huntin' did me good. Comm' home at evening I got most to

the home clearin and thar twixt me and the house on a log at the edge of the

wood was Jeanne. I'd washed out my other pair of pants and hung them on a limb

to dry and I could see them a wringin', a twistin', and a billowin' in the

breeze. And thar was Jeanne a gazin' out acrost the field at them pants with a

sorrowful, sufferin' look on her face.



I were always a tender hearted critter. I never could see no dumb beast or woman

suffer on no account. I ups with the squirrel-rifle and shoots Jeanne -- puts

her out of her misery! Now she sleeps beneath the sour apple tree in my family

buryin' ground right 'long side of my four regular wives and some mail-order

ones.



But anyhow, she died convinced thar is Romance along a back road in Vermont.

===============================================


0 -1 0 0
8280 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/22/2012 2:24:00 PM


If that doesn't sound like humor, I do not know what does. He is showing at

least five definite murdered women and some more. I could kid about this, but

let's let him be the humorist. He seems to have an ear for dialect.



In a message dated 3/22/2012 2:14:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

edgarc@aol.com writes:



"I were always a tender hearted critter, I never could see no dumb

creature or woman suffer on no account. I ups with the squirrel rifle and

shoots Jeanne -- puts her out of her misery! Now she sleeps beneath the sour

apple tree in my family buryin' ground right long side of my four regular wives

and some mail order ones."


0 -1 0 0
8281 Gary Govier Gary Govier Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 3/7/2012 7:39:00 PM


Since there has been a lot of talk about Bill Swegan, prior to Bill Swegan's

passing, he was looking for a article or a paper he wrote and it was in the

Sears encyclopedia.



Does anyone have a lead or direction where I can find that piece?



Thanks



BIKERGARYG New Jersey



- - - -



From GLENN C. the moderator: the following is taken from Bill Swegan's book on

The Psychology of Alcoholism. I used to have a copy of that article -- I used it

when I was helping him write the book -- but it is stored somewhere in my

basement at this point, in a big stack of boxes, and would take so long to find

that it would be far quicker and easier to find a good university library that

either had back copies of the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, or would

be willing to order you a photocopy through interlibrary loan.



Anyway, here's what it says in Bill Swegan's book:



=============================================

Medical science continued to make progress in this area during the years

following. The discovery of medications which would act as better tranquillizers

was of great help to those of us who were running alcoholism treatment programs.

I co-authored an article in 1958, along with Neville Murray, M.D., a

psychiatrist in San Antonio, entitled “To Tranquillize or Not to Tranquillize.”

It appeared in the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, and received such

wide notice that excerpts from it were reprinted in the 1958 yearbook put out by

a popular American encyclopedia.*



***********************************

*ENDNOTE 18: Neville Murray, M.D., and M/Sgt William Swegan, USAF, “To

Tranquillize or Not to Tranquillize,” Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol

19, no. 3 (September 1958): 509-510. Excerpts reprinted in the 1958 yearbook of

the American Peoples Encyclopedia (a popular set of volumes distributed by Sears

Roebuck).

***********************************



I wrote the article because I had become unhappy with a small but often

highly vocal minority within Alcoholics Anonymous who totally rejected the use

of any kind of medication by alcoholics in recovery. When they discovered that a

newcomer was taking medication prescribed by a psychiatrist or physician, they

would snarl at meetings, “You might as well change your sobriety date then. You

aren’t sober until you have quit using drugs in any form at all.”



The fact was that large doses of the paraldehyde used by Dr. Bob in the

1930’s could further excite and nauseate patients in delirium. Barbiturates like

the sodium luminol which Sister Ignatia was some-times using in 1951 could leave

a patient dangerously anesthetized and tended to have unpredictable effects. By

1958, we had discovered that the intravenous administration of some of the newly

dis-covered tranquillizers like chlorpromazine, promazine, or tri-flupromazine

could often produce rapid improvement with many individuals, without the same

negative side effects. When a serious alcoholic stops drinking, the delirium

tremens which results can be extremely dangerous. Some patients go into

convulsions, the heart refuses to start beating properly afterwards, and even

with prompt medical intervention the patient may die.



Some people seem to believe that alcoholics must suffer enormously during

withdrawal to “expiate their sins” of excessive alcohol abuse, but this sort of

punitive approach to alcoholism treatment does not seem to improve a treatment

center’s success rate at all. In fact patients respond better and more

positively to the rest of the treatment program if they can, from the beginning

of abstaining from alcohol, start to feel a freedom from discomfort never before

experienced. It gives them a positive attitude, at a deep psychological level,

toward being freed from dependence on alcohol. “I do in fact feel much better

without any alcohol in my system” is an excel-lent starting point for teaching

people how to remain abstinent.

=============================================


0 -1 0 0
8282 Jonathan Lanham-Cook Jonathan Lanham-Cook Re: 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 3/22/2012 1:25:00 PM


IN THE SECOND EDITION OF THE BIG BOOK:



The earliest printing of the second edition to have the Spencer quote is the

third printing.



The first three printings do not have the printing stated on the

reverse of the title page - this first appears ion the fourth

printing.



There are slight differences between the first three

printings - mostly in terms of the number of groups on page 16 and the

first printing has a spelling error on page xx (I think).



The third printing also has a mispelt dust jacket which has third edition on it

no second - it is the only one with this error. I have a complete set of 2nd

editions here so if you need to know any other details I'll go and have a look

for you



God bless



Jonathan :-)


0 -1 0 0
8283 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 5:04:00 AM


From Laurie Andrews, Bill (Lambchopp), planternva, charlieparker, and Kimball

ROWE



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Radio 3, the BBC channel that plays classical music, broadcasts 30 hours of

silence a year (pauses in the music and between contributions etc). It occurred

to me: How do they know? And who on earth wanted to know!



- - - -



From: Bill lambchopp@gmail.com >

(lambchopp at gmail.com)



I am curious as to the historical significance of these word counts?



Bill L

Lambchopp



- - - -



From: "planternva2000" planternva2000@yahoo.com>

(planternva2000 at yahoo.com)



Has anyone counted the commas, colons, dashes, quotes and other punctuation

marks?



- - - -



From: "charlieparker"charlieparker@prodigy.net>

(charlieparker at prodigy.net)



Reason refers to "reason" but it is illustrating that we have deified Reason in

this case. Charlie P



- - - -



From: Kimball ROWE roweke@msn.com>

(roweke at msn.com)



Also, MS WORD has a word frequency counter add-on, it's on the review tab.


0 -1 0 0
8284 kate.frisby kate.frisby Doctor Silkworth Doctor Silkworth 3/13/2012 5:30:00 AM


In the Doctor's Opinion, (Big Book p. xxx) Dr Silkworth talks about men and

women "making the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight."



I just wondered if anyone knew of Dr Silkworth's experiences with situations of

this sort. Did he ever give any specific examples of alcoholics to whom this

happened? If he has would it be possible to get copies of these people's

stories?



Thanks



- - - -



From GLENN C. the moderator: the phrase "the supreme sacrifice" means "the

sacrifice of one's life."



In ordinary English usage, it usually refers to people who gave their lives in

battle: a soldier at war, a fireman fighting a fire, a police officer trying to

apprehend an armed criminal, etc.



Or (more specifically in Christian thought) it can refer to the Supreme

Sacrifice made by Jesus Christ in his death on the cross.



Or (in this context) could Dr. Silkworth have been referring to alcoholics who

finally decided to give up the struggle and committed SUICIDE after fruitlessly

trying over and over to stop drinking by the use of their own will power alone?

Because what Silkworth was talking about here was the phenomenon of alcoholic

craving, and the alcoholic's inability to win the battle against that craving by

the use of will power.


0 -1 0 0
8285 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/22/2012 3:07:00 PM


In Message #8278, Edgar refers to the copy of the Mark Whalon book which he used

as:



====================================

second printing, first edition, Stephen Daye Press, 1942, Brattleboro, NY no

ISBN

====================================



That should be Brattleboro, VERMONT, not New York.



Brattleboro is the site of the Brattleboro Retreat, or, as some call

it, Asylum. I have had family there and never heard it referred to

as the latter. Two of my uncles went thru treatment there.



- - - -



And then, in the same message, JAX760 wrote: "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark

Whalon. Mark was his middle name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson

House. John Mark Whalon is buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of

the Wilson House.



But then the WIKIPEDIA article on him gives the name as "Mark A" instead of

"John Mark":



====================================

Mark A Whalon (1886 - 1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close

friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a

close influence on Wilson in his later life.

====================================



Les has several photographs of tombstones in his excellent book, but,

alas, not the Whalon one.



Is the cemetery referred to the one behind the Roman Catholic Church

in East Dorset? It is east and a bit of the Wilson House.



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8286 corafinch corafinch Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/13/2012 9:06:00 AM


There doesn't seem to be a way of linking to it, but I think you will find most

of the essay, under the title "Prayer is Power," in the Google books scan of

this anthology: The Questing Spirit: Religion in the Literature of our Time.

There was one page missing when I checked it. Elsewhere in Google Books there is

an excerpted version under the same title.



I'm sure John doesn't need the warning, but others might want to find out a

little bit about Carrel before reading his (inspirational, I admit) writings.


0 -1 0 0
8287 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/22/2012 4:07:00 PM


Wikipedia article on Alexis Carrel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Carrel



Alexis Carrel (June 28, 1873 - November 5, 1944) was a French surgeon and

biologist who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1912 for

pioneering vascular suturing techniques. He invented the first perfusion pump

with Charles A. Lindbergh opening the way to organ transplantation. Like many

intellectuals before World War II he promoted eugenics. He was a regent for the

French Foundation for the Study of Human Problems during the Nazi occupation of

Vichy France which implemented the eugenics policies there; his association with

the Foundation led to allegations of collaborating with the Nazis.



In the 1930s, Carrel and Charles Lindbergh became close friends not only because

of the years they worked together but also because they shared personal,

political, and social views.



Due to his close proximity with Jacques Doriot's fascist Parti Populaire

Français (PPF) during the 1930s and his role in implementing eugenics policies

during Vichy France, he was accused after the Liberation of collaborationism,

but died before the trial.



In 1935, Carrel published a book titled Man, The Unknown (L'Homme, cet Inconnu),

which became a best-seller. The book discussed "the nature of society in light

of discoveries in biology, physics, and medicine". It contained his own social

prescriptions, advocating, in part, that mankind could better itself by

following the guidance of an elite group of intellectuals, and by implementing a

regime of enforced eugenics. Carrel claimed the existence of a "hereditary

biological aristocracy" and argued that "deviant" human types should be

suppressed using techniques similar to those later employed by the Nazis.



GAS CHAMBERS FOR KILLING THE SUBHUMAN:

"A euthanasia establishment, equipped with a suitable gas, would allow the

humanitarian and economic disposal of those who have killed, committed armed

robbery, kidnapped children, robbed the poor or seriously betrayed public

confidence," Carrel wrote in L'Homme, cet Inconnu. "Would the same system not be

appropriate for lunatics who have committed criminal acts?" he suggested.



PRAISE FOR ADOLF HITLER'S DEATH CAMPS:

In the 1936 preface to the German edition of his book, Alexis Carrel added a

praise to the eugenics policies of Hitler's Germany, writing that:



"The German government has taken energetic measures against the propagation of

the defective, the mentally diseased, and the criminal. The ideal solution would

be the suppression of each of these individuals as soon as he has proven himself

to be dangerous."



Carrel also wrote in his book that:



"The conditioning of petty criminals with the whip, or some more scientific

procedure, followed by a short stay in hospital, would probably suffice to

insure order. Those who have murdered, robbed while armed with automatic pistol

or machine gun, kidnapped children, despoiled the poor of their savings, misled

the public in important matters, should be humanely and economically disposed of

in small euthanasic institutions supplied with proper gasses. A similar

treatment could be advantageously applied to the insane, guilty of criminal

acts."



- - - -



See also the book "Uncommon Friends: Life with Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Harvey

Firestone, Alexis Carrel, and Charles Lindbergh" (1987), by James Newton.



A book about the close friendship between Alexis Carrel and these other three

men.



Harvey Firestone was the founder of the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company, and

the man who first brought the Oxford Group to Akron, Ohio (where Dr. Bob joined

the group in an attempt to stop drinking).



Henry Ford was the major promulgator in the United States of an insidiously

influential anti-Semitic document called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. He

sent half a million copies all over the country until a Jewish lawyer filed a

successful lawsuit and stopped him from distributing any more of them. It was a

total fake, but claimed to be an account of the Jewish plan for taking over the

whole world. Arabic translations of this foul document are still being used by

Muslim terrorist groups in the Near East, telling their followers that all the

things said in this document are "absolutely true," and the reason why good

people should be willing to sacrifice their lives to destroy the Israelis.



Charles Lindbergh remained a loyal adviser to the American government during the

Second World War, but President Roosevelt himself complained that he had never

been able to get Lindbergh to condemn a single thing which the Nazis did,

including even the Nazi gas chambers where they killed so many Jews (and

others). Lindbergh insisted that, between the British and the Germans, he

thought it was about six of the one and a half dozen of the other, and (when the

Second World War was beginning) tried to dissuade President Roosevelt from

taking sides between the British and Hitler.


0 -1 0 0
8288 Michael Gwirtz Michael Gwirtz Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/13/2012 9:11:00 AM


Prayer is not only worship; it is also an invisible emanation of man's

worshipping spirit - the most powerful form of energy that one can generate. If

you make a habit of sincere prayer, your life will be very noticeably and

profoundly enriched.



Prayer is a force as real as terrestrial gravity. As a doctor, I have seen men,

after all therapy had failed, lifted out of disease and melancholy by the serene

effort of prayer. Such occasions have been termed miracle. But a constant,

quieter miracle takes place hourly in the hearts of men and women who have

discovered that prayer supplies them with a steady flow of sustaining power in

their daily lives.



Too many people regard prayer as a formalized routine of words, a refuge for

weaklings or a childish petition for material things. Properly understood,

prayer is a mature activity indispensable to the fullest development of

personality. Only in prayer do we achieve that complete, harmonious assembly of

body, mind and spirit which gives the frail human reed its unshakeable strength.



How does prayer fortify us with so much dynamic power? To answer this question

(admittedly outside the jurisdiction of science) I must point out that all

prayers demonstrate the same truth; human beings seek to augment their finite

energy by addressing themselves to the infinite source of all energy. When we

pray, we link ourselves with the inexhaustible motive power that spins the

universe. We ask that a part of this power be apportioned to our needs. Even in

asking, our human deficiencies are filled, and we arise strengthened and

repaired.



In order really to mold personality, prayer must become a habit. One can pray

everywhere; in the street, the office, the school, in the solitude of one's own

room, in a church. There is no prescribed posture, time or place. But it is

meaningless to pray in the morning and to live like a barbarian the remainder of

the day. True prayer is a way of life; the truest life is literally a way of

prayer.



Today, lack of emphasis on the religious sense has brought the world to the edge

of destruction. Our deepest source of power and perfection has been left

miserably undeveloped. Prayer, the basic exercise of the spirit, must be

actively practiced by man and nations. For if the power of prayer is again

released and used in the lives of common men and women, there is yet hope that

our prayers for a better world will be answered.



(Prayer is Power by Alexis Carrel in Reader's Digest March 1963).



Shakey Mike Gwirtz


0 -1 0 0
8289 Charlie C Charlie C Alexis Carrel Alexis Carrel 3/13/2012 1:02:00 PM


Here is a link to a record for the book "Prayer is Power" by Alexis Carrel,

196?.



http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/37266793



It is only held in two locations, but there is a Readers Digest anthology that

includes it, and that anthology is held in many libraries, and could easily be

gotten through interlibrary loan.



http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/365188



Some of his books are for sale in http://abebooks.com as well.



Interesting sounding book, and author, hadn't heard of him before. Is his

writing something early AA's were known to read?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Carrel



Charlie Cowling

Clarkson, NY


0 -1 0 0
8290 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Word Use Word Use 3/22/2012 6:16:00 PM


From: Bill lambchopp@gmail.com >

(lambchopp at gmail.com)



I am curious as to the historical significance of these word counts?



Bill L

Lambchopp



- - - -



These word counts give people like me who have wretched lives with

nothing better to do than to study word use in A.A. literature and

make great proclamations, trying to impress the credulous with our

great intellectual abilities.



It also provide fodder for arguments. The word "sponsor" is not used

in the Big Book. How significant is that?



The word "ego" is used a lot in current discussions in meetings, but

it is very sparingly used in the Big Book and 12 & 12, which implies

it wasn't used much in early A.A. However, Wilson used the

word/prefix "self" a whole lot. I suspect it was a cultural thing.



I have the Purple Salamander Press concordance, and I also have one

for the two books by 164 and More, which I find very useful as I can

carry it to meetings and negates the need to memorize which pages the

words are used on. At my age, any extra space in my brain is put to

use. I just wish 164 and More had included As Bill Sees It.



That's it for now. Back to pondering the use of the dash in A.A.

literature . . . .



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8291 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available 3/23/2012 3:51:00 PM


All the messages from the AAHistoryLovers's first ten years (2002-2011) have now

been collected into one huge computer database. The Hindsfoot site will be

posting the first drafts (as they become available) of the messages as they are

edited into a more readable fashion as Microsoft Word DOCX documents.



See, on the Hindsfoot site, A.A. Historical Materials Part 2 at



http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html



which gives a link near the top of the page to the specific webpage on this

topic:



http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html



The first three years of the group's messages are now available for downloading:



AA History Lovers for 2002, Messages 1-751

http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs02.docx



AA History Lovers for 2003, Messages 753- 1574

http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs03.docx



AA History Lovers for 2004, Messages 1575-2117

http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs04.docx



Apologies -- the messages were pulled off the database using what is called

"mail merge" in the most recent version of MS Word, which saves its files with

the DOCX file extension instead of the older DOC suffix.



All the new copies of MS Word use the .docx file format. Also, in my own

experiments, these massively long files come out a good deal shorter in the

.docx format (these .docx files are essentially zipped XML documents).



IF YOU HAVE AN OLDER VERSION OF MICROSOFT WORD, how can you read these

documents? If you do a search on the internet for docx, you will find that you

have several alternatives:



(a) You can download a free compatability pack which will allow some of the

earlier versions of MS Word to download files in the the next .docx format:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/open-a-word-2007-document-in-an-earl\

ier-version-of-word-HA010044473.aspx






(b) There are sites like the following which will convert .docx to .doc files

for free:

http://www.doc.investintech.com/



(c) Last but not least it is possible to download a copy (for free) of

OpenOffice, which can read the .docx files, and can also convert them into other

file formats:



http://www.openoffice.org/


0 -1 0 0
8292 John Barton John Barton Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/23/2012 10:49:00 AM


Carrel's influence on AA can be found in Bill's 1944 talk to the Yale School of

Alcohol Studies. (excerpt below) The description of AA as a "synthesis" of

medicine and religion as Bill is often quoted, came from Carrel and his work

"Man The Unknown" according to Bill.



As Cora and Glenn have pointed out some of his ideology is pretty far from the

main stream.



"Then we read a book by Dr. Carrel. From that book came an argument that is now

a part of our system. (How much we may agree with the book in general, I don't

know, but in this respect the AA's think he had something.)



Dr. Carrel wrote, in effect; the world is full of analysts. We have tons of ore

in the mines and we have all kinds of building materials above ground. Here is a

man specializing in this, there is a man specializing in that, and another one

in something else. The modern world is full of wonderful analysts and diggers,

but there are very few who deliberately synthesize, who bring together different

materials, who assemble new things. We are much too shy on synthetic thinking -

the kind of thinking that's willing to reach out now here and now there to see

if something new cannot be evolved.



On reading that book some of us realized that was just what we had been groping

toward. We had been trying to build out of our own experiences. At this point we

thought, "Let's reach into other people's experiences. Let's go back to our

friends the doctors, let's go back to our friends the preachers, the social

workers, all those who have been concerned with us, and again review what they

have got above ground and bring that into the synthesis. And let us, where we

can, bring them in where they will fit."



So our process of trial and error began and, at the end of 4 years, the material

was cast in the form of a book known as Alcoholics Anonymous. And then our

friends of the press came in and they began to say nice things about us.



That was not too hard for them to do because by that time we had gotten hold of

the idea of not fighting anything or anyone. We began to say, "Our only motive

as an organization is to help the alcoholic. And to help him we've got to reach

him. Therefore, we can't collide with his prejudices. So we aren't going to get

mixed up with controversial questions, no matter what we, as individuals, think

of them.



We can't get concerned with prohibition, or whether to drink or not to drink. We

can't get concerned with doctrine and dogma in a religious sense. We can't get

into politics, because that will arouse prejudice which might keep away

alcoholics who will go off and die when they might have recovered."


0 -1 0 0
8293 gary gary Where did Bill and Lois over look the ocean before Bill left for Over There? Where did Bill and Lois over look the ocean before Bill left for Over There? 3/14/2012 1:18:00 PM


My wife and I are going east this year from the Niagara Falls Canada area, and

will be stopping at Brown University in RH to vist the W.D. Kirk collection.



Just wondering if anyone knows the exact spot where Bill and Lois overlooked the

Atlantic Ocean before he went to war.



I would like to get a picture from this spot.



Also anything else we should look up in this area that would be of AA interest?

Gary


0 -1 0 0
8294 edgarc@aol.com edgarc@a... Fwd: Mark Whalon headstone Fwd: Mark Whalon headstone 3/23/2012 8:40:00 AM


In a later msg than the one below, which transmitted the photo of John Mark

Whalon's headstone and the church, Ron F wrote "Sorry for the lapse of mind.

It's St. Jerome's Cemetery. You can google East Dorset and see It on the

map...ronf"



____________________________________



From: ron.f

To: EdgarC@aol.com

Sent: 3/23/2012 8:19:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time

Subj: mark



Edgar



Thanks for your kind words and the controversy, very fun. Here's the old church

where John Mark is buried and the tombstone. He didn't practice what he had

been preaching in one of his stories about getting a good stone before you die

... ronf ... feel free to use the pics as you wish. Will get the name of the

cemetery if you need that as escapes the mind at present ... it's Catholic for

sure.


0 -1 0 0
8295 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/16/2012 11:24:00 AM


From Norm the Tinman, kochbrian, Charlie Parker, Dudley D. Birr, buckjohnson,

with a reference also to John Barton's Names of the First One Hundred



- - - -



From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com>

(normtinman at yahoo.com)



I think you'll find that as each edition was re written the numbers changed --

Norm



- - - -



From: "B" kochbrian@hotmail.com>

(kochbrian at hotmail.com)



More information comes in. Here is Bill's story as it appeared in the first

printing.



"There is scarcely any form of human misadventure and misery which has not been

overcome among us. In a Western city and its environs, there are sixty of us and

our families. We often meet informally at our houses, so that newcomers may find

what they seek. Gatherings of twenty to sixty are common. We are growing in

numbers and power."



I am asking if anyone knows in which printings the verbage changed here, and in

There is a Solution, to reflect growing membership? I know from the forward to

the second edition, it talks about 2,000 members in march of 1941, and 8,000

members by the close of 1941.



Based on the following:

First Printing, April, 1939

Second Printing, March, 1941

Third Printing, June, 1942

Fourth Printing, March, 1943

Fifth Printing, January, 1944

Sixth Printing, June, 1944

Seventh Printing, January, 1945

Eighth Printing, February, 1945

Ninth Printing, January, 1946

Tenth Printing, August, 1946

Eleventh Printing, June 1947

Twelfth Printing, October, 1948

Thirteenth Printing, February, 1950

Fourteenth Printing, July, 1951

BY THE CORNWALL PRESS, INC., CORNWALL, N.Y.

PRINTED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA



I would guess some changes in the 2nd and 3rd printings at the least? Thanks

all!!



- - - -



From: "Charlie Parker" charlieparker@prodigy.net>

(charlieparker at prodigy.net)



There were One Hundred originally (more or less). There have been many changes

to those numbers in various printings and editions of the Big Book over the

years to update the numbers as well as a lot of other changes.



Many of us were told for years in the discussion meetings that "there have never

been any changes to the first 164 pages of the Big Book". This is far from true.

The forward to the second edition pertaining to these changes is easily misread.



Pages 50-51 now say "thousands" and "many hundreds". In the first edition first

printing those same passages said "100."



At some point in the editions of the Preface for the 4th edition BB they changed

"has been left untouched" to say "has been left largely untouched". A pretty

significant change.



Charlie P Austin



- - - -



From: Dudley Dobinson DudleyDobinson@aol.com >

(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)



Hi, The first printing on page 25 (Now 15) says 80 members and "At these

informal

gatherings one may often see from 40 to 80 persons." On page 27 (Now 17) refers

to "One hundred men who were just as hopeless as Bill." Adjustments were made in

later printings.



Dudley D. Birr Ireland



PS The Doctor's Opinion was numbered pages 1 to 9 in the First Edition



- - - -



From: "buckjohnson41686" buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com >

(buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com)



On "the First Hundred," many AA historians believe that this was more like 40,

but with spouses may have rounded up to 100. The numbers recorded in the Big

Book were increased in later printings as more alcoholics joined AA.



- - - -



From the moderator: the figure which is sometimes cited of "40 members in April

1939" comes from the known list of those who got their stories in the Big Book,

plus about ten more whom we know a good deal about, and who we know were sober

at that time. But a list this short may well be a bit on the over-skeptical

side. Certainly, when citing this, it is well to refer people to John Barton's

list, which is well researched and needs to be taken seriously.



JOHN BARTON HAS ASSEMBLED A LIST OF 100

PEOPLE WHO HAD JOINED A.A. BY APRIL 1, 1939

Message #8061

Names of the First One Hundred

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8061


0 -1 0 0
8296 Ben Hammond Ben Hammond Re: March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs 3/15/2012 4:18:00 PM


Happy Birthday ... God Bless all of you who provide this wonderful resource.



Old Ben in Tulsa


0 -1 0 0
8297 Sally Brown Sally Brown Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 3/16/2012 12:39:00 AM


Hi, Dolores - Dave and I hadn't heard about Marty Mann's connection with these

military treatment centers, and would love to learn whatever you find out. In

addition, even though I retired recently as a 20-year staff chaplain at the Palo

Alto VA (Veterans Affairs Health Care System), I will always have a deep

interest in anything involving health treatment of our military, be they active

or vets.



Thanks very much. Sally



Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv

Board Certified Clinical Chaplain

United Church of Christ

coauthor with David R Brown:

A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann

The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous



- - - -



Subject: Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service



Hi Roger, do you have any information on the Treatments facilities in Bad

Cannstatt and the others in West Germany?. They were started around 1974. I know

that Marty Mann was involved with these Treatment facilities. I would like to

add this to the CER history. Thanks Dolores


0 -1 0 0
8298 Roger Roger Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 3/16/2012 5:56:00 PM


Hello Dolores - I know Continental Europe Region has a rich history and thank

you for your excellent service as archivist there. I could not find anything on

Bad Cannstatt but I do have a GV article (Jan 1974) describing a treatment

program in Wiesbaden (about 200km away). I will send you copy of the whole

article.



The article was written by an AA member Raleigh B. whom you may have information

about in the CER archives. He had 20 years at the time and volunteered at the

U.S. Air Force's Alcoholism Rehabilitation Center (ARC) in Wiesbaden, Germany.



Colonel John P. McDonough, a physician, was director of the program, which went

into operation January 24, 1973. The ARC was a twenty-eight-day, total-immersion

project.



I will keep looking and pass along to you if I find anything from Bad

Cannstatt/Stuttgart area from that time.


0 -1 0 0
8299 buckjohnson41686 buckjohnson41686 Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/17/2012 8:38:00 PM


From: buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com >

(buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com)



SEE MESSAGE 6882, Sun Sep 19, 2010: Already 80 people in the Cleveland group in

Spring 1939?



Geoff Smith noted that in Bill's story, it mentions that "in a western town

there are thousands of members," yet when the book was written there were fewer

than 100 alcoholics total. Was this added to Bill's story later? I don't think

so, as it's in my 1st edition. What is the explanation for this mismatch?



Glenn Chesnut responded:



I think Geoff is referring to the passage found on pp. 15-16 in the current

(4th) edition:



"In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our

families. We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they

seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from 50 to 200 persons. We

are growing in numbers and power."



According to my notes, the "western city" was Cleveland, and in the second

printing of the 1st edition, among the changes made:



On page 25 line 23, 80 of us was changed to 500 of us.



And on page 25 line 26, 40-80 persons was changed to 50-200 persons.



Later on, in the third printing of the 1st edition, on page 25 line 23, 500 of

us was changed to 1000 of us.



Is this the passage that you are asking about, Geoff?



There is still the question of the Big Book's original statement that in 1939

there were 80 people in the Cleveland area (even if we count families as well as

the alcoholics themselves), with 40 to 80 people attending "informal gatherings"

there. Has this group ever looked at those numbers? Are they are all possible?


0 -1 0 0
8300 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Traditions Question Traditions Question 3/18/2012 1:06:00 PM


From what used to be the west Baltimore group.



1949



As plans for the first Int'l Convention were under way, Earl T suggested to

Bill W that the Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition would benefit from

revision and shortening. (AACOA 213 says it occurred in 1947) Bill, with Earl's

help, set out to develop the short form of the Twelve Traditions. (AACOA 213,

GTBT 55, 77, PIO 334)



November, the short form of the Twelve Traditions was first printed in the AA

Grapevine. The entire issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for

the forthcoming Cleveland Convention.



Two wording changes were subsequently made to the initial version of the short

form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary

purpose" in Tradition 6, and "principles above personalities" was changed to

"principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. (LOH 96)



- - - -



In a message dated 3/18/2012 12:50:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

mfmargetis@yahoo.com writes:



Why was the "short form" of the Traditions written? Was the

"short form" intended to replace the long form? Or simply

provide an alternate, briefer version?


0 -1 0 0
8301 Jonathan Lanham-Cook Jonathan Lanham-Cook Re: First AA meeting in London, England 1948 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 3/22/2012 1:54:00 PM


The Dorchester meeting was 1947 not 1948



all the best

Jonathan L-C :-)



- - - -



Message #8160 from "dorothy.banks97" ullathorne@toucansurf.com> (ullathorne at

toucansurf.com)



"First AA meeting in London, England 1948"



On 31st March the first recorded meeting was held in Room 202 of the Dorchester

Hotel, London, at the invitation of Grace O, a visiting American member who had

previously met Canadian Bob in a London Dean St restaurant.



Can anyone there at history lovers update on the happy fate of the USA members

who attended please?



Grace O.

Vernon W (an American serviceman)

Ward Williams (American)


0 -1 0 0
8302 a49585 a49585 Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 3/22/2012 2:18:00 PM


Does anyone have a copy of the third step handout used during the Joe

& Charlie Big Book workshops?


0 -1 0 0
8303 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan Thoughts on Bill Swegan 3/22/2012 2:49:00 PM


It used to be said that the first 36 hours of not drinking were the most

dangerous for the alcoholic that is being treated in recovering from the

effects of alcohol. So the medical people were supposed to sedate the alcoholic

during this time to reduce the risk of his dying. I think we should not lose

sight of this if we are working with someone with acute alcoholism.



- - - -



With reference to Bill Swegan's scientific journal article on the advantages to

using tranquillizers to help alcoholics through early detox instead of the

substances like barbiturates (as in the case of Dr. Bob) and paraldehyde, that

were used in earlier AA practice.


0 -1 0 0
8304 kate.frisby kate.frisby How much did Bill W. earn from working in stocks? How much did Bill W. earn from working in stocks? 3/23/2012 4:21:00 AM


How much money did Bill make personally from his work in the stock exchange?



Thanks

Kate


0 -1 0 0
8305 Sherry C. Hartsell Sherry C. Hartsell RE: Word Use Word Use 3/23/2012 7:02:00 AM


From Sherry Hartsell, planternva2000, Roy Levin, and brian koch



- - - -



TOMMY HICKCOX'S COMMENTS hit a responsive chord, and many people wrote in

responding to him. Tommy said:



====================

These word counts give people like me who have wretched lives with

nothing better to do than to study word use in A.A. literature and

make great proclamations, trying to impress the credulous with our

great intellectual abilities.



It also provide fodder for arguments. The word "sponsor" is not used

in the Big Book. How significant is that?



The word "ego" is used a lot in current discussions in meetings, but

it is very sparingly used in the Big Book and 12 & 12, which implies

it wasn't used much in early A.A. However, Wilson used the

word/prefix "self" a whole lot. I suspect it was a cultural thing.



I have the Purple Salamander Press concordance, and I also have one

for the two books by 164 and More, which I find very useful as I can

carry it to meetings and negates the need to memorize which pages the

words are used on. At my age, any extra space in my brain is put to

use. I just wish 164 and More had included As Bill Sees It.



That's it for now. Back to pondering the use of the dash in A.A.

literature . . . .



Tommy H in Danville

====================



From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" hartsell@etex.net>

(hartsell at etex.net)



Tommy, everyone needs something to do and I found this note informative, thanks.



Sherry C. H.



Gilmer, Texas



- - - -



From: "planternva2000" planternva2000@yahoo.com>

(planternva2000 at yahoo.com)



Technically, it is an 'emdash': "A symbol used in writing and printing to

indicate a break in thought or sentence structure, to introduce a phrase added

for emphasis, definition, or explanation, or to separate two clauses."



- - - -



From: Roy Levin royslev@yahoo.com >

(royslev at yahoo.com)



You're my kind of AA book fanatic. One question I haven't gotten much feedback

on regarding semantic nuances in the book is whether Bill W. ever commented on a

distinction between "selfish" and "self-seeking." I have asked for feedback on

this and only gotten personal interpretations. I was hoping for a reference to

a talk or workshop given by Bill W. where he was asked this question and

answered it (as he was asked whether he meant any difference between charcater

defects and shortcomings, and he said "No, I just didn't want to repeat myself

using the same word as it was considered inferior prose style.") But selfish

and self-seeking are used in the same sentence in the book, which could

be construed as implying a difference between the two terms.



- - - -



From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com >

(kochbrian at hotmail.com)



Good question regarding significance. was running around in my head too ....


0 -1 0 0
8306 Shakey Mike Shakey Mike Re: March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs 3/24/2012 12:12:00 AM


I knew Nancy O. and will never forget dining with her the evening before the AA

Archives conference with her, our host Jared L and his wife Janie, Mr and Mrs

Mel B,and my wife to be Anne Marie.



As AA history was discussed I merely listened. I asked a couple of questions. I

listened to those who were talking AA history first hand. They were there. What

an experience. It was due to friendships that were formed by being a member of

"Buffs" and then "History Lovers."



Happy Birthday and many more. We are all blessed that it survives and

flourishes. That was Nancy's dream. All of you made it possible.



Thank You AAHL's,

Shakey Mike

Phila,PA USA



- - - -



TWELFTH ANNIVERSARY -- MARCH 16, 2000 - MARCH 16, 2012


0 -1 0 0
8307 bevflk@aol.com bevflk@a... Re: March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs 3/24/2012 9:09:00 AM


Happy Birthday!!! Thank you for giving me the info on our founding fathers and

AA history



Beverly in Tucson


0 -1 0 0
8308 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Beer served at AA meeting? Beer served at AA meeting? 3/24/2012 12:19:00 PM


A collection of 'factlets' that one might find helpful -



====================

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1661



Letter from Ruth Hock to Bill Wilson dated November 10, 1955



To keep us humble and laughing were developments like the Southern group started

via mail through (was his last name Henry?) Anyway, he wrote us flowing reports

about his group and its amazing recoveries of members of his group. One of our

traveling members stopped in for a visit and his letter to us was an eye opener

indeed. It seems that this particular group was based on the theory that all

alcoholic beverages were very bad for the alcoholic - except beer. This idea was

carried out so thoroughly that beer was served at their A.A. meetings with

copious readings of the A.A. book. Oh well - the beer itself soon cured that

misconception.

====================

http://howtosurviveaa.com/worst-aa-meetings/



TRANSCRIPTION OF RUTH HOCK TAPED INTERVIEW – - VESEY STREET, GLENDALE,

CALIFORNIA, MARCH 12, 1978, ONE TAPE, SIDE ONE.



And Bill felt, in the early days, that everyone should – every group had the

right to formulate it's own way of doing this particular thing, until it came

about that we had a wandering, loving, lovable Jewish salesman who traveled all

through the South. And he came back with stories about how they had one

particular group that, well, they served beer during the evening, but nothing

but beer! So that everything was perfectly fine, and of course, Bill thought it

was hilarious, but nevertheless, he also thought that this kind of thing

shouldn't go on.



[The transcription comes from an 'agenda' site - The CD exists, it's available

on Amazon - I couldn't verify the accuracy of the transcription]

=====================

http://www.amazon.com/Grateful-Have-Been-There-Alcoholics/dp/0942421442



Grateful to Have Been There - Nell Wing, pp 11



There was only one mention of beer and had nothing to do with drinking at an

A.A. meeting



Local runor had it that my father indulged in a beer or two occasionally, but

said rumor never reached the ears of our mother, who was firmly addicted to the

Women's Christian Temperance Union (WCTU)!

=====================

http://silkworth.net/mitchellk/articles/growth.html



Growth of Central Offices - Mitchell K



One story has it that a group responded to some questions posed to them by Bill

W. by stating that they are all doing well. The members of that group were no

longer drinking hard liquor and only drinking beer. They thought that this was a

great accomplishment for hard-core alcoholics.

====================

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/06/ff_alcoholics_anonymous/3/



Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don't Know How It Works

By Brendan I. Koerner | June 23, 2010 | 12:00 am | Wired July 2010



AA boomed in the early 1940s, aided by a glowing Saturday Evening Post profile

and the public admission by a Cleveland Indians catcher, Rollie Hemsley, that

joining the organization had done wonders for his game. Wilson and the founding

members were not quite prepared for the sudden success. "You had really crazy

things going on," says William L. White, author of Slaying the Dragon: The

History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America. "Some AA groups were

preparing to run AA hospitals, and there was this whole question of whether they

should have paid AA missionaries. You even had some reports of AA groups

drinking beers at their meetings."

====================

Slaying The Dragon - William White, pp135



Growth of A.A.groups was so rapid that there were inevitable concerns about

dilution and distortion of the A.A. program. In his biography of Bill Wilson,

RobertThomsen revealed a story of the flefgling A.A. group in Richmond, Virginia

that held meetings to "get away from their wives and talk things over, but saw

no reason not to drink beer at their meetings." [51]Thomsen 1975, pp319

(paperback, pp285)

====================

Bill W - Robert Thomsen, pp285



Nevertheless, as Bill never let himself forget, it wasn't the office mail that

was spreading the message. It was the band of tireless recovered alkies who went

on day after day and carried the word out to others. The number of these

stalwarts in the early 1949s was incalculable, but several, perhaps because of

their unorthodox methods, were close to Bill's heart. One of these was Irwin M.



Irwin was a supersalesman of Venetian blinds. A 250-pounder, he possessed a

personality, an energy and a gusto as monumental as his build. AA was his

religion, and because of a certain fanaticism in his approach, there was some

hesitafion in the beginning about giving him a list of prospects to contact. But

since his territory covered Atlanta, Jacksonville and New Orleans, as well as

Birmmgham and Indianapolis, and since there was a file filled with the names of

Southerners who'd so far had no contact with AA, they knew they couldn't be

choosy. They gave Irwin the list and sent him off.



Reports started coming in within weeks. Irwin had been incorrigible. With his

whirlwind technique he tracked down drunks in homes, taverns and offices, and

once he'd got his hooks into them he never let go. When he had to move on to

another town, he spent his nights shut up in a hotel room writing letters to all

his converts, admonishing themand praising them. Across the southland, new

groups began to spring up in the wake of irwin M, and if sometimes the questions

of these newcomers indicated a confusion between AA and the Holy Rollers, it

couldn't be helped. Bill hated to think what his atheist and agnostic friends

would say if they saw these letters, but there was no denying they were coming

from drunks who were sober. The South had been conquered again and much of the

credit had to go to Irwin M. and others like him.*



* From the beginning the southern drunks presented special problems. For example

a group in Richmond, Virginia, believed in holding regular meetings, in getting

away from their wives and talking things over, but saw no reason not to drink

beer at their meetings. It took time and the dedicated work of one John W. to

bring them around.


0 -1 0 0
8309 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst RE: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 3/26/2012 12:19:00 AM


what is the discrepancy between sobering up in New York or New Jersey?

Is that because of the AA "office" changing locations? I have always heard of

them referred to as the "New York" contingent.



I have always heard Hank Parkhurst was the first member "Bill sobered up in New

York" but the list below states Jersey.



Would it be accurate to say Jim B was the 4ht member to sober up in new York



I cannot tell you how thankful I am for this list!!!!!!!!!!!!!



ctp



-----Original Message-----

From: John Barton

Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011

Subject: Names of the First One Hundred



Fellow History Lovers,



Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have

been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of

1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained

elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members

produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA

literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work

of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other

known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of

Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The

Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as

possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's

"spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr

Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in

The Golden Road)



Are there many more names that should be on this list? I suspect the answer

is yes! I have no info on new members in Akron for the first few months of

1939 and no doubt there were several, perhaps many! More research is

required at a future date.



Were there "One Hundred Men and Women" on or before the book was published

April 10,1939? Bill wrote many many times to different people that there

were and the available evidence seems to support this. Many historians and

authors who counted less than 100 previously might not have had access to

all the lists including the Amos List (for example compare to Pioneer by

Date of Sobriety List). Others may have followed statements made by some

pioneers like Jimmy Burwell who said Bill rounded up or exaggerated the

claim. Was Jimmy well informed? Did he know who all the Akron/Cleveland

members were? Not all of his recorded AA history (memoirs) have proved

accurate. Perhaps we've been wrong all along in saying there were only 60 to

70? Was everyone on this list still sober or with the fellowship in April of

1939? Probably not but then as noted above there were probably many new

members who were not properly documented or remain truly anonymous to us

till this day. So perhaps there actually was "One Hundred Men and Women" who

were staying sober by following the outlined program when the book came out.



I would love to hear if anybody can contribute information on any of the

less well know names on this list or any other sources which can be used to

prove or disprove the validity or the placement of a name on this list. Does

anyone believe a name has been missed? Many believe Ebby should have been

included. People like Wes, Eddie, and Russ eventually sobered up, should

they be included? Cebra later joined AA in Paris. How about Don, the Cohoes

banker who was sober in 36 but then seems to have faded off? Do you have any

reasonable evidence to support your claim? Please let me know your comments!



PS If anyone can provide me the last name for Gordon S. or Brooke B. both

believed to be from New York Group before 1939 I would be forever in your

debt!

 

1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY

2 Bob Smith May35 Akron

3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron

4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron

5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ

6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron

7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron

8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD

9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT

10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron

11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron

12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron

13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY

14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland

15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland

16 Harry Latta            Jul-36 Akron

17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron

18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron

19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron

20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron

21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ

22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ

23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron

24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron

25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland

26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron

27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron

28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron

29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron

30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland

31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland

32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron

33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron

34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ

35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron

36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron

37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ

38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron

39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron

40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron

41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron

42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ

43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron

44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron

45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron

46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron

47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY

48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron

49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron

50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron

51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron

52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron

53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron

54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron

55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron

56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron

57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron

58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron

59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron

60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY

61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland

62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland

63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY

64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY

65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT

66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY

67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY

68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron

69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY

70 Robert Taylor May38 NY

71 George Williams Jun-38 NY

72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ

73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA

74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY

75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI

76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY

77 James Scott Sep38 Akron

78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron

79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland

80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland

81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY

82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland

83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron

84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron

85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ

86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron

87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ

88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ

89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY

90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ

91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA

92 William Worton Feb39 NY

93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY

94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ

95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ

96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ

97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ

98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ

99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ

100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ



Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers  

Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard  

Brooke B Shep Cornell  

Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves  

Alec Johnson Ned Foote  

Gordon S. Russell Rathbone  

Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins  

Ernie Gerig Marty Mann  

John Reese Albert Golrick  

Harry Nash Grenville Curtis  

Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans  

Don McClean Oscar Vieths  

Rowland Jones Bill Cousins  

Sterling Parker Joe Mina  

Tom Pierce      Jackie Williams


0 -1 0 0
8310 Bill Lash Bill Lash Insider trading at AA Meeting Insider trading at AA Meeting 3/27/2012 6:50:00 AM


Classic!



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill



- - - -



SEC Charges Five Individuals for Insider Trading Tip From AA Meeting



by Reese Darragh on March 14, 2012



http://compliancesearch.com/compliancex/insider-trading/sec-charges-five-individ\

uals-for-insider-trading-tip-from-aa-meeting/




The Securities and Exchange Commission brought civil insider-trading charges

against five individuals who allegedly made more than $1.8 million profits based

on a tip obtained through an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.



In the filing, the regulator charged Timothy McGee, a financial adviser at

Ameriprise Financial Services for making illegal stock trading of Philadelphia

Consolidated Holding Corp after he received insider information of a pending

merger between the company and Japanese firm Tokio Marine Holdings.



A fellow AA member who is also a senior executive at the firm had confided with

McGee during one of the support group meeting that the pressures over the merger

were leading him to drink. Utilizing the information, McGee purchased the

company’s stock in advance of the July 23, 2008 merger and gain $292,128 when

the stock price of Philadelphia Consolidated increased by 64 percent on the

news.



Sharing the Wealth



McGee also allegedly shared the tip with a co-worker, Michael Zirinsky, who

purchased stock in his own trading accounts as well as his family. Per The Wall

Street Journal, Zirinsky also shared the information with his father, Robert

Zirinsky, and a friend in Hong Kong, Paolo Lam, who in turn shared the

information with another friend, whose wife, Marianna Sze Wan Ho, also traded on

the information.



The SEC also named four Zirinsky relatives as relief defendants, seeking

disgorgement of ill-gotten gains. They were not charged in the case. Altogether,

the Zirinsky family made $562,673.



Elsewhere in Hong Kong, a Reuters report confirmed that Lam and Ho have agreed

to settle the charges with the SEC without admitting or denying the allegations.

Lam made $837,975 while Ho gained $110,580 through their bets on the

information. Lam and Ho will pay $1.2 million and $140,000 respectively to the

SEC.



The SEC is pursuing penalties against McGee, Michael Zirinsky and his father,

Robert Zirinsky.



AA Shield



Unlike the common insider trading cases that often revolve around the breach of

confidential duty between an employee and the company’s shareholders, the

executive of Philadelphia Consolidated is not charged with any wrongdoing.



The SEC’s suit on Tuesday said that McGee misused the information obtained

from his relationship with the executive because the relationship was forged

through AA meetings. AA’s twelfth tradition policy was designed to encourage

participants to speak freely but anonymously.



"By spring and early summer 2008, while the PHLY executive was participating in

the merger negotiations and under significant pressure to ensure a successful

sale, he and McGee had known each other for almost a decade and forged a close

relationship in which they routinely shared confidences about each other's

personal lives and problems impacting them professionally," the SEC said.



Insider trading case stemmed from an AA meeting is a first for the regulator.



I guess the AA program has to be restructured for members to eliminate certain

details of their work from now on.

_____________________________________________



(Reese Darragh is a contributing writer for CompliancEX and Wall Street Job

Report. She is an experienced business news writer with expertise in

macroeconomics topic, the financial industry, rules and regulations including

the Dodd-Frank Act and the Sarbanes-Oxley Act as well as rules from other

federal regulators. She has a Masters Degree in International Economics and

Finance from Brandeis University.)


0 -1 0 0
8311 Patrick Murphy Patrick Murphy Henrietta Seiberling's differing accounts of Bill W's phone call Henrietta Seiberling's differing accounts of Bill W's phone call 3/27/2012 2:50:00 PM


I read that Henrietta Seiberling said in a letter that Bill Wilson's account of

his calling her from the Mayflower was a fabrication on his part. Does anyone

know what really happened that night of May 11th, 1935?



-Paddy Mur



- - - -



A LETTER FROM HENRIETTA CITED BY MITCHELL K.



Mitchell K. said that Henrietta Seiberling had accused Bill Wilson of lying in

his account of how he first phoned her:

http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch3.htm



Much of the story relating to the phone calls at the Mayflower has been labeled

as false by one of the people who would have known about what actually

transpired there.



Henrietta Seiberling, the person who arranged the meeting between Bill and Dr.

Bob wrote to an early AA member telling him her side of the story. In that

undated (ca. Early 1950's) letter, Henrietta wrote the following about what Bill

had written in the RHS Memorial Grapevine issue.



"His accounts in the "Memoriam" Grapevine were made up - Telephone

conversations, etc - Everything phony ..."



- - - -



WHAT BILL W. WROTE IN THE 1951 GRAPEVINE:



Dr. Bob Memorial Edition of the AA Grapevine (1951)

Message #1637



It was a Saturday in May, 1935. An ill-starred business venture had brought me

to Akron where it immediately collapsed leaving me in a precarious state of

sobriety. That afternoon I paced the lobby of Akron's Mayflower Hotel. As I

peered at the gathering crowd in the bar, I became desperately frightened of a

slip. It was the first severe temptation since my New York friend had laid

before me what were to become the basic principles of AA, in November 1934. For

the next six months I had felt utterly secure in my sobriety. But now there was

no security; I felt alone, helpless. In the months before I had worked hard with

other alcoholics. Or, rather, I had preached at them in a somewhat cocksure

fashion. In my false assurance I felt I couldn't fall. But this time it was

different. Something had to be done at once.



Glancing at a Church Directory at the far end of the lobby, I selected the name

of a clergyman at random. Over the phone I told him of my need to work with

another alcoholic. Though I'd had no previous success with any of them I

suddenly realized how such work had kept me free from desire. The clergyman gave

me a list of ten names. Some of these people, he was sure, would refer me a case

in need of help. Almost running to my room, I seized the phone. But my

enthusiasm soon ebbed. Not a person in the first nine called could, or would,

suggest anything to meet my urgency.



One uncalled name still stood at the end of my list - Henrietta S. Somehow I

couldn't muster courage to lift the phone. But after one more look into the bar

downstairs something said to me, "You'd better." To my astonishment a warm

Southern voice floated in over the wire. Declaring herself no alcoholic,

Henrietta nonetheless insisted that she understood. Would I come to her home at

once?



Because she had been enabled to face and transcend other calamities, she

certainly did understand mine. She was to become a vital link to those fantastic

events which were presently to gather around the birth and development of our AA

society. Of all names the obliging Rector had given me, she was the only one who

cared enough. I would here like to record our timeless gratitude.



Straightway she pictured the plight of Dr. Bob and Anne. Suiting action to her

word, she called their house. As Anne answered, Henrietta described me as a

sobered alcoholic from New York who, she felt sure, could help Bob. The good

doctor had seemingly exhausted all medical and spiritual remedies for his

condition. Then Anne replied, "What you say, Henrietta, is terribly interesting.

But I am afraid we can't do anything now. Being Mother's Day, my dear boy has

just brought in a fine potted plant. The pot is on the table but, alas, Bob is

on the floor. Could we try to make it tomorrow?"



Henrietta instantly issued a dinner invitation for the following day.

At five o'clock next afternoon, Anne and Dr. Bob stood at Henrietta's door. She

discreetly whisked Bob and me off to the library.



- - - -



WHAT HENRIETTA SAID IN THE TAPE RECORDING

which was played at the 1971 Founders Day in Akron, Ohio



Message #138

Henrietta Sieberling on A.A.'s beginnings, supplied by Congressman John

Seiberling

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/138



Transcript Of Remarks by Henrietta B. Seiberling:



Bill, when he was in a hotel in Akron and down to a few dollars and owed his

bill after his business venture fell through, looked at the cocktail room and

was tempted and thought, "Well, I'll just go in there and get drunk and forget

it all, and that will be the end of it." Instead, having been sober five months

in the Oxford Group, he said a prayer. He got the guidance to look in a

ministers directory, and a strange thing happened.



He just looked in there, and he put his finger on one name: Tunks. And that was

no coincidence, because Dr. Tunks was Mr. Harvey Firestone's minister, and Mr.

Firestone had brought 60 of the Oxford Group people down there for 10 days out

of gratitude for helping his son, who drank too much. His son had quit for a

year and a half or so. Out of the act of gratitude of this one father, this

whole chain started.



So Bill called Dr. Tunks, and Dr. Tunks gave him a list of names. One of them

was Norman Sheppard, who was a close friend of mine and knew what I was trying

to do for Bob. Norman said, "I have to go to New York tonight but you can call

Henrietta Seiberling." When he told the story, Bill shortened it by just saying

that he called Dr. Tunks, but I did not know Dr. Tunks. Bill said that he had

his last nickel, and he thought, "Well, I'll call her."



So I, who was desperate to help bob in something I didn't know much about, was

ready. Bill called, and I will never forget what he said: "I'm from the Oxford

Group and I'm a Rum Hound." Those were his words. I thought, "This is really

manna from Heaven." And I said, "You come right out here." And my thought was to

put those two men together. Bill, looking back, thought he was out to help

someone else. Actually, he was out to get help for himself, no thought of

helping anyone else, because he was desperate. But that is the way that God

helps us if we let God direct our lives. And so he came out to my house, and he

stayed for dinner. And I told him to come to church with me next morning and I

would get Bob, which I did.


0 -1 0 0
8312 last_town last_town Re: Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets 3/28/2012 5:49:00 PM


First, Glenn thanks so much for posting this. I am a huge fan of Kurtz's

Not-God, and appreciate his historical insight.



With that said, I was hoping there might be a greater discussion of Kurtz's

contention that the phrase 'You're only as sick as your secrets' would have been

anathema to the founders, as he states in No. 9 "Spirituality and Recovery."

There is an earlier discussion of the origins of this phrase where it is

attributed to Maurer, but only a brief mention and it's from 2007.



Of course in present-day AA, anything not in the first 164 pages is highly

suspect, but I have never understood this as a call to publicly confess, but

rather as a call for rigorous honesty in working the steps. Further, to me, it

seems reminiscent of the idea in a Member's Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous

that part of the reasoning of the 4th and 5th steps was in dealing with the

alcoholics' guilt.



Anyway, those are my thoughts, I would love to hear anyone else's.



L

____________________________________



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote:

>

> See http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html

>

> THE LAST FOUR ARTICLES CAN NOW ALSO BE DOWNLOADED:

>

> 9. Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey

> http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf

>

> 10. Whatever Happened to Twelve-Step Programs?

> http://hindsfoot.org/tcek10.pdf

>

> 11. Why A.A. Works: The Intellectual Significance of Alcoholics Anonymous

> http://hindsfoot.org/tcek11.pdf

>

> 12. Here's to Spuds MacKenzie!

> http://hindsfoot.org/tcek12.pdf


0 -1 0 0
8313 Margie Keith Margie Keith Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan Thoughts on Bill Swegan 3/28/2012 5:47:00 PM


In the early 70's we were still giving karo syrup and orange juice but had a

doctor on stand by.


0 -1 0 0
8314 corafinch corafinch Re: Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets 3/29/2012 8:37:00 AM


In his book, The New Group Therapy, Orval Hobart Mowrer (who never used his

first name and generally wrote as O. H. Mowrer) said that the phrase was a

distillation of his thinking as it developed over the years. Early in his career

he was inspired by Harry Stack Sullivan and later by the "reality therapy" of

William Glasser. Mowrer's methods were notoriously confrontational, resembling

in some ways the popular "gestalt therapy" of the time.



There is an interesting coincidence associated with the phrase about sins and

secrets. Mowrer said that the inspiration came to him after reading the novel

Miraculous Obsession by Lloyd C. Douglas. To me, Mowrer's concept does not seem

particularly close to the Douglas one, which was a development of ideas found in

the Gospels. However, Mowrer saw it all as one broad insight.



Lloyd C. Douglas was an early admirer of Frank Buchman, going back to the days

when both men worked in collegiate ministry. Douglas wrote an article about

Buchman around 1914, for a YMCA publication. He also hosted an Oxford Group

event in the early 1930s, when he was a minister in Canada. Although supportive,

he probably was not a member of the Oxford Group.



So the sins and secrets phrase has a nice provenance. It is also associated with

the most confrontational branch of rehab philosophy. The legacy of O. H. Mowrer

is strongest in substance abuse treatment programs for criminal offenders, but

is also found in other old-school, high-confrontation, low-empathy environments.

This may have something to do with Ernie's assessment. The concepts themselves

are not altogether bad but they have developed some seamy associations.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "last_town" wrote:

>

> I was hoping there might be a greater discussion of Kurtz's contention that

the phrase 'You're only as sick as your secrets' would have been anathema to the

founders, as he states in No. 9 "Spirituality and Recovery." There is an earlier

discussion of the origins of this phrase where it is attributed to Maurer

[should be spelled Mowrer], but only a brief mention and it's from 2007.



____________________________________



For the entire text of THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ see

http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html



For chapt. 9. "Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey," see

http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf


0 -1 0 0
8315 starshine1943 starshine1943 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 3/29/2012 9:57:00 AM


Does anyone know the source where Bill W talks about a 13th step as a spiritual

level?



(NOT the idea of 13th stepping as trying to sexually seduce another AA member

under the pretense of trying to help that other person with his or her program.)


0 -1 0 0
8316 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut The Self-Hate Syndrome on p. 45 in the 12 and 12 The Self-Hate Syndrome on p. 45 in the 12 and 12 3/29/2012 1:17:00 PM


An interesting commentary from Sue C. (South Bend, Indiana) on the Self-Hate

Syndrome or Self-Loathing Syndrome described in the paragraph on page 45 in the

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions:



"If temperamentally we are on the depressive side, we are apt to be swamped with

guilt and self-loathing. We wallow in this messy bog, often getting a misshapen

and painful pleasure out of it. As we morbidly pursue this melancholy activity,

we may sink to such a point of despair that nothing but oblivion looks possible

as a solution. Here, of course, we have lost all perspective . . . . This is not

a moral inventory at all; it is the very process by which the depressive has so

often been led to the bottle and extinction."



This is discussed in the section on the Self-Hate Syndrome about halfway down

the page at



http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html



The article by Sue C. (South Bend, Indiana) "Escaping the Bog of Self-Loathing:

Learning how to love ourselves again, using the Fourth Step to heal our shame,

guilt, co-dependence, and depression" is then found at



http://hindsfoot.org/selfhate.pdf



Bill W's metaphor of the Bog of Self-Loathing may ultimately have been derived

from a classical source. So also on that webpage, see the link to Glenn F.

Chesnut, Dante's Swamp of Depression, a commentary on Dante's Inferno, Canto 7,

which describes the river Styx and the Fifth Circle of Hell, where those are

sent who are damned by their anger or depression:



http://hindsfoot.org/danteswamp.pdf


0 -1 0 0
8317 joelford@pacbell.net joelford@p... Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 3/30/2012 1:30:00 PM


From: "joelford@pacbell.net "

dean@complanners.com> (dean at complanners.com)



See paragraph 2 on "Clubs in AA" by Bill W. in the April 1947 AA Grapevine:



"As the majority view, we might suppose that to be a blanket endorsement of

clubs; we might think we couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them

as a central AA institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery

program without which the other Twelve Steps wouldn't work. At times club

enthusiasts will act as though they really believed we could handle our alcohol

problems by club life alone. They are apt to depend upon clubs rather than upon

the AA program."



_________________________________________________



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "starshine1943" wrote:



Does anyone know the source where Bill W talks about a 13th step as a spiritual

level?



(NOT the idea of 13th stepping as trying to sexually seduce another AA member

under the pretense of trying to help that other person with his or her program.)


0 -1 0 0
8318 LES COLE LES COLE RE: John Mark Whalon, not John A. Whalon John Mark Whalon, not John A. Whalon 3/31/2012 1:12:00 PM


From Les Cole and Glenn Chesnut



- - - -



From Les Cole:



THE BRATTLEBORO RETREAT (not "Asylum")

Tommy is correct on his point about the name of the Brattleboro institution. My

family in Vermont, and other natives, called it a "retreat". It is where

alcoholics Vermonters were sent under court order, but others with mental

problems also went there. Local folks usually just referred to it as

"Brattleboro". If Magistrate Collin Graves had not given Ebby's custody over to

friends Hazard, Graves, and Cornell, he would have been incarcerated in the

Brattleboro facility.



JOHN MARK WHALON (not "John A. Whalon")

Tommy's second discussion about Mark Whalon is correct. During research for my

recent book, I found the record of Mark's birth in the East Dorset town records.

It shows his name as John Mark Whalon. The full page of this record of births

that month, is on page 136 of my book http://www.LesCole-AA.com



I did not look for Mark's grave when I was researching up there.



Les Cole



_____________________________________________



THREE QUESTIONS FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR:



JAX760 wrote: "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle

name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is

buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House.



But then the WIKIPEDIA article on him gives the name as "Mark A" instead of

"John Mark":

"Mark A Whalon (1886 - 1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close

friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a

close influence on Wilson in his later life."



1. "IRISH-AMERICAN"

Where does the Wikipedia article (which gets repeated over and over verbatim on

the internet) get the idea that Whalon was "Irish American"? An Irishman in that

part of Vermont at that period of history? 'Tis possible, but do we have any

information about how Irish Whalon might have been? Was he born in Ireland, like

Sister Ignatia, or was he born in the United States, like Father Dowling? Even

in Dowling's case, I think we can say that the Irish tradition was still living,

given the nature of the strongly demarked ethnic neighborhoods in St. Louis when

he was growing up.



But how about Mark Whalon? Was he a major "New England Yankee" influence on the

young Bill Wilson, as is suggested in the books that are being written now about

Bill W., or was he in fact one of the earliest of the many Roman Catholic

influences which surrounded Bill Wilson all his life?



2. "JOHN A. WHALON" in ANCESTRY.COM REPORT:

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=USFedCen&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=0&\

msT=1&gss=ms_f-80&gsfn=Cliff&gsln=Whalon




1930 United States Federal Census

Name: Kathleen C Whalon, birth: abt 1898

Spouse: Mark A Whalon

Residence: 1930 - city, Bennington, Vermont



East Dorset and Bennington are both in Vermont, but they're at least forty miles

apart. Did some careless investigator look in the census reports for someone

from Vermont named Mark Whalon, find this particular "Mark A. Whalon" in

Bennington, and then all-too-quickly assume that this was the same person as the

rural mail deliveryman whom Bill Wilson knew?



So we might inquire further, for starters, to see if our Mark Whalon had a wife

named Kathleen.



================================================

JARED LOBDELL, PLEASE COME AND HELP US OUT HERE

================================================



(And while we're at it, someone might check and see if the body of the

unfortunate artist named Jeanne is in fact buried "beneath the sour apple tree

in my family buryin' ground right 'long side of my four regular wives and some

mail-order ones." If there are a bunch of Mark Whalon's wives and girlfriends

buried in the Whalon family cemetery, this can be ascertained by any proper

historian, by simply going there and reading the names and other info on the

tombstones.)



3. CLOSE INFLUENCE ON WILSON IN HIS LATER LIFE:

The Wikipedia article gets repeated over and over, absolutely verbatim, all over

the internet. It says "Mark A Whalon (1886 - 1956) was an Irish-American author.

Whalon was close friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and

said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life."



We not only have the problem of the middle initial A, and the question of how

Irish he really was --



What is with the claim in the wikipedia article that Mark was "said to be a

close influence on Wilson in his later life." This phrasing suggests that Bill

Wilson, even during the 1940's, 50's, and 60's, was still checking back with his

old friend Mark Whalon to see how he ought to set up the Twelve Traditions, the

system of delegates meeting in an annual general service conference, whether he

should keep on taking LSD, and all of these other hot topics.



I would not be complaining about this Wikipedia article were it not for the fact

that this is close to the only thing I can find on the internet anywhere about

Mark Whalon, which means that it is inevitably going to get copied into our AA

histories, with the assumption that this is accepted and proven historical fact.



Could we please get a short paragraph written, that we can post in the

AAHistoryLovers, which gives a brief biographical sketch of Mark Whalon the

rural mail deliveryman, which we can guarantee is accurate?



Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)


0 -1 0 0
8319 LES COLE LES COLE Bill's fifle Bill's fifle 3/31/2012 1:25:00 PM


Yesterday I was re-reading Robert Thomsen's book, "BILL W." and saw on page 24,

a discussion of Bill, as a child, talking with his older neighbor friend, Bill

Landon, about Civil War experiences. Thomsen describes how Landon had trained

Bill how to shoot,and persuaded the Griffth's to buy Bill a "25-20 Remington".



Les Coleelsietwo@msn.com

Colorado


0 -1 0 0
8320 bill@athenararebooks.com bill@a... Bill Wilson Documentary Film Bill Wilson Documentary Film 3/29/2012 9:38:00 PM


The new documentary on the life of Bill Wilson (entitled Bill W.) was

shown three times this past week at the Cleveland International Film

Festival, and I was able to attend the first two screenings.



The first showing was in Akron on Monday night followed by viewings on

Tuesday & Wednesday in downtown Cleveland, at the main venue for the

festival.



The theater in Akron was, as would be expected, sold out and the

audience gave the movie very positive reviews during the Q&A session

that followed. These questions were fielded by Kevin Hanlon and Dan

Carracino (the movie's producers/directors) and touched on a wide

range of AA history topics (with a not-unexpected focus on Dr. Bob's

part in the story).



The Tuesday afternoon showing in Cleveland was oversubscribed, so

another theater was opened up for a dual-showing to accommodate the

crowd. The Q&A that followed was a panel discussion with five

participants, including a doctor from a local treatment center. This one was

much shorter than the previous night, and covered a more

wide-ranging list of topics, including questions about A.A.'s role

in society and the world of the treatment industry.



To my mind, the seamless blending of film clips, photos, period

recordings and current interviews does an outstanding job of detailing

and explaining the four general periods in Wilson's life:



*His first 22 years (no booze)



*His 17-year career as a drunk



*The 21 years covering the founding of AA and his guidance

during its growth up until 1955



*The final 15 years of Bill's life that followed his

"turning AA over" to the fellowship in 1955



Plans are currently being made for limited-engagement theatrical runs in several

major U.S. cities, including New York City and Los Angeles

sometime in May (details to follow when available).



A radio interview with Kevin and Dan discussing the film can be heard

at:



http://www.wksu.org/news/story/31179



Old Bill


0 -1 0 0
8321 Bill Bill Re: Bill Wilson Documentary Film Bill Wilson Documentary Film 4/1/2012 7:06:00 AM


Does anyone know if the documentary will be subtitled in French?



--

William D.


0 -1 0 0
8322 David Brown David Brown Re: Re: Bill Wilson Documentary Film Bill Wilson Documentary Film 4/1/2012 6:24:00 PM


I have seen a private screening. Somehow I doubt it. But I have been wrong

before. The film is so uplifting



- - - -



Bill william.demeulenaere@gmail.com> wrote:



Does anyone know if the documentary will be subtitled in French?


0 -1 0 0
8323 Roger Roger Re: Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available 3/24/2012 9:48:00 AM


Great new service! Thanks much.



I downloaded easily and was wondering if the replies to posts were included.

Went to message 212 before I found that anyone had replied with a question or

comment. The question was not included in the download (post regarding AA

starting in Ireland). I also noted that post 216 followed 212 and on

AAHistoryLovers indeed posts 213-215 are missing or not used. Do you know why or

what they were if used?



- - - -



Reply from Glenn Chesnut (about the only parts I know anything about):



There are lots of missing/deleted messages in the numbered sequence of

AAHistoryLovers messages which are posted online at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

Numbers 18, 115, 120, 141-155, 157, 159-160, 168-173, 175-176, 206-208, 210-211,

213-215, 217, 219-225, 228, etc.



When the AAHistoryBuffs had to be discontinued, two people carried out the

laborious task of transferring messages over to the newly formed

AAHistoryLovers: Nancy Olson and Fiona over in Ireland.



Nancy is dead, so you would have to ask Fiona what she remembers from way back

then.



There are also lots of messages which were deleted in the original

AAHistoryBuffs, see:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/messages



There does not seem to be any easily detectable pattern to the correspondence

between the number of the original message in the aahbuffs and the number of the

copy in the aahl. For example:



aahl 204 = aahbuffs 1017

aahl 205 = aahbuffs 1001

aahl 206-208 missing/deleted

aahl 209 = aahbuffs 186

aahl 212 = aahbuffs 229

aahl 213-215 missing/deleted

aahl 216 = aahbuffs 258

aahl 217 missing/deleted

aahl218 -- doesn't seem to match anything in aahbuffs

aahl 219-225 missing/deleted

aahl 226 = aahbuffs 574

aahl 227 = aahbuffs 601



It is, alas, unfortunately the case that in the Yahoo group system, once a

posted message has been deleted, there is no way to undelete it and recover it

again.



Fiona, did Nancy seem to have any rules or methods for deciding which messages

to dump, and the order in which to copy the remainder?



Although I was not directly involved in it, my understanding is that the

procedure that was used for cleaning up the message board was quite simple and

easy to understand: extraneous "chatty" messages that had no intrinsic

historical content were deleted, along with things like guesses that were later

shown to be dead wrong (that's why we try to avoid posting things now that are

based on member opinion, speculation, or especially "someone told me" or "an

oldtimer told me" messages, which nearly always turn out to be wrong!). But

every message was left in place when it contained any kind of important

historical material that had stood up to further inquiry.



Glenn Chesnut



- - - -



ORIGINAL MESSAGE --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut

wrote:

>

> All the messages from the AAHistoryLovers's first ten years (2002-2011) have

now been collected into one huge computer database. The Hindsfoot site will be

posting the first drafts (as they become available) of the messages as they are

edited into a more readable fashion as Microsoft Word DOCX documents.

>

> See, on the Hindsfoot site, A.A. Historical Materials Part 2 at

>

> http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html

>

> which gives a link near the top of the page to the specific webpage on this

topic:

>

> http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html

>

> The first three years of the group's messages are now available for

downloading:

>

> AA History Lovers for 2002, Messages 1-751

> http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs02.docx

>

> AA History Lovers for 2003, Messages 753- 1574

> http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs03.docx

>

> AA History Lovers for 2004, Messages 1575-2117

> http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs04.docx


0 -1 0 0
8324 Bill Lash Bill Lash Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 4/3/2012 7:39:00 AM


Kevin Kaufmann, "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of

Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960," Ph.D. thesis at Loyola University in Chicago,

August 2011.



Google search under the title "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of

Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960" (it's a .pdf document) or copy & paste the

following link:



http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=luc_diss&s

ei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%

3Drigorous%2520honesty%2520a%2520cultural%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26sqi%3D2%

26ved%3D0CCUQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fecommons.luc.edu%252Fcgi%252Fvi

ewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1072%2526context%253Dluc_diss%26ei%3Det16T4mQO

ITw0gGp8fiUBg%26usg%3DAFQjCNGhz2v7ikaI0f-odR3uXVOPuKNdxA%26cad%3Drjt#search=

%22rigorous%20honesty%20cultural%22





Just Love,

Barefoot Bill


0 -1 0 0
8325 bill@athenararebooks.com bill@a... Re: Bill Wilson Documentary Film: French subtitles possible? Bill Wilson Documentary Film: French subtitles possible? 4/3/2012 11:29:00 AM


I asked one of the two producer/directors about French subtitles on

"Bill W." and he replied that "right now, we are focused on

the U.S. distribution of the film, including some form of theatrical

release, followed by a DVD later this year. We certainly have plans for

foreign and overseas distribution, but that will only come after we have

completed our American distribution plan. If everything goes according

to schedule, we will begin work on subtitling the film for international

release sometime later this year."



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill"

wrote:

>

> Does anyone know if the documentary will be subtitled in French?

>

> --

> William D.


0 -1 0 0
8326 Moderator AAHistoryLovers Moderator AAHistoryLovers Repository for AAHistoryLovers documents Repository for AAHistoryLovers documents 4/4/2012 10:42:00 AM


Wow, great! Thank you very much! -- Glenn C., Moderator, AAHistoryLovers



- - - -



Laurence Holbrook's website http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/

now has a repository for documents associated with the AA History Lover's Group:



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/



- - - -



TO CONTACT HIM:



email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)



- - - -



DOCUMENTS PRESENTLY POSTED:



Click here for the DropCaps font examples



Click here for the Stonebraker's drafts of Bill's story



Click here to open Joe & Charlie's talk on step 3 (MS Word)



Click here to open Joe & Charlie's talk on step 3 (PDF Format)



Click here to see Handout 1 - definitions



Click here to see Handout 2 - basic instincts


0 -1 0 0
8327 Laurence Holbrook Laurence Holbrook Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 3/28/2012 7:51:00 PM


From Larry Holbrook and Bill Lash



- - - -



"Laurence Holbrook" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>

(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)



I have not participated in a Joe & Charlie Big Book study group - I

understand it is a 'scripted' study - the MS Word version has two images in

it, one of some definitions, the other is about self instincts -



I added 4 links to this index - one is MS Word format of Joe & Charlie on

Step 3, another is a PDF format of the same material - the last two are

images that I copied from the MS Word document - clicking those links should

open those files in a web browser - you could also RIGHT click the links and

select "Save Target As ..." which will save copy on one's local hard drive -



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/



I hope this is helpful -



Larry Holbrook

-----------------------

Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com

(410) 802-3099



Current Location:

2833 Farm Road 350

Livingston, Texas 77351

Polk County

Central Standard Time

L N 030° 42' 01.4"

Lo W 094° 59' 55.7"

Elevation 105'



Permanent Address (Mail/Parcels):

Laurence Holbrook

161 Rainbow Drive #6183

Livingston, Texas 77399-1061



- - - -



From: Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net>

(barefootbill at optonline.net)



Good morning. The Joe & Charlie Big Book Study handouts (and many other 12 Step

guides & exercises) can be found by going to www.justloveaudio.com & clicking on

"free resources". The Joe & Charlie handouts can be found in "free resources"

under "assorted" & scrolling all the way down to the bottom. Peace.



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill


0 -1 0 0
8328 jax760 jax760 Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 3/29/2012 12:40:00 PM


The list indicates where people lived or were from at the time, not necessarily

where they sobered up. Prior to the publication of the Big Book in April 1939,

you could only have attended meetings at Bill's house in Brooklyn or the weekly

Oxford Group meeting at the Williams' house in Akron. (The first meeting which

was held in Cleveland started after the Big Book was published, on May 11, 1939

and the first New Jersey meeting in Upper Montclair on May 14th 1939.) I think

the point I was originally trying to make was that many of the "NY AA's" were

actually New Jerseyans.



Although Burwell is listed for NY he actually bounced around. Both before and

after his relapse in mid 1938 he was living with the Parkurst's in Upper

Montclair, NJ which is where he first met Bill according to Merton's notes.

After his relapse in June of 38 he stayed in NJ for almost a year as he worked

for Stain-Ox (the auto polish affiliate of Honor Dealers)



We may have to change Jimmy to NJ - of course later he ended up in Phili and

helped start that group as well as Camden NJ in May of 1940, one year to the

date of the first meeting in NJ on May 14th.



Shakey Mike might be able to supply some more info on Jimmy and his entrance

into AA.



Warm regards,



John Barton



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst"

wrote:

>

> what is the discrepancy between sobering up in New York or New Jersey?

> Is that because of the AA "office" changing locations? I have always heard of

them referred to as the "New York" contingent.

>

> I have always heard Hank Parkhurst was the first member "Bill sobered up in

New York" but the list below states Jersey.

>

> Would it be accurate to say Jim B was the 4ht member to sober up in new York

>

> I cannot tell you how thankful I am for this list!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> ctp

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: John Barton

> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011

> Subject: Names of the First One Hundred

>

> Fellow History Lovers,

>

> Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have

> been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of

> 1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained

> elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members

> produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA

> literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work

> of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other

> known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of

> Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The

> Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as

> possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's

> "spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr

> Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in

> The Golden Road)

>

> Are there many more names that should be on this list? I suspect the answer

> is yes! I have no info on new members in Akron for the first few months of

> 1939 and no doubt there were several, perhaps many! More research is

> required at a future date.

>

> Were there "One Hundred Men and Women" on or before the book was published

> April 10,1939? Bill wrote many many times to different people that there

> were and the available evidence seems to support this. Many historians and

> authors who counted less than 100 previously might not have had access to

> all the lists including the Amos List (for example compare to Pioneer by

> Date of Sobriety List). Others may have followed statements made by some

> pioneers like Jimmy Burwell who said Bill rounded up or exaggerated the

> claim. Was Jimmy well informed? Did he know who all the Akron/Cleveland

> members were? Not all of his recorded AA history (memoirs) have proved

> accurate. Perhaps we've been wrong all along in saying there were only 60 to

> 70? Was everyone on this list still sober or with the fellowship in April of

> 1939? Probably not but then as noted above there were probably many new

> members who were not properly documented or remain truly anonymous to us

> till this day. So perhaps there actually was "One Hundred Men and Women" who

> were staying sober by following the outlined program when the book came out.

>

> I would love to hear if anybody can contribute information on any of the

> less well know names on this list or any other sources which can be used to

> prove or disprove the validity or the placement of a name on this list. Does

> anyone believe a name has been missed? Many believe Ebby should have been

> included. People like Wes, Eddie, and Russ eventually sobered up, should

> they be included? Cebra later joined AA in Paris. How about Don, the Cohoes

> banker who was sober in 36 but then seems to have faded off? Do you have any

> reasonable evidence to support your claim? Please let me know your comments!

>

> PS If anyone can provide me the last name for Gordon S. or Brooke B. both

> believed to be from New York Group before 1939 I would be forever in your

> debt!

>  

> 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY

> 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron

> 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron

> 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron

> 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ

> 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron

> 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron

> 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD

> 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT

> 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron

> 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron

> 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron

> 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY

> 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland

> 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland

> 16 Harry Latta            Jul-36 Akron

> 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron

> 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron

> 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron

> 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron

> 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ

> 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ

> 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron

> 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron

> 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland

> 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron

> 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron

> 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron

> 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron

> 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland

> 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland

> 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron

> 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron

> 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ

> 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron

> 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron

> 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ

> 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron

> 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron

> 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron

> 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron

> 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ

> 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron

> 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron

> 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron

> 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron

> 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY

> 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron

> 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron

> 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron

> 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron

> 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron

> 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron

> 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron

> 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron

> 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron

> 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron

> 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron

> 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron

> 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY

> 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland

> 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland

> 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY

> 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY

> 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT

> 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY

> 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY

> 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron

> 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY

> 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY

> 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY

> 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ

> 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA

> 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY

> 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI

> 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY

> 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron

> 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron

> 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland

> 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland

> 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY

> 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland

> 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron

> 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron

> 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ

> 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron

> 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ

> 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ

> 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY

> 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ

> 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA

> 92 William Worton Feb39 NY

> 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY

> 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ

> 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ

> 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ

> 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ

> 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ

> 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ

> 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ

>

> Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers  

> Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard  

> Brooke B Shep Cornell  

> Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves  

> Alec Johnson Ned Foote  

> Gordon S. Russell Rathbone  

> Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins  

> Ernie Gerig Marty Mann  

> John Reese Albert Golrick  

> Harry Nash Grenville Curtis  

> Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans  

> Don McClean Oscar Vieths  

> Rowland Jones Bill Cousins  

> Sterling Parker Joe Mina  

> Tom Pierce      Jackie Williams

>


0 -1 0 0
8329 John Barton John Barton Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/29/2012 1:13:00 PM


"In one western city and its environs" refers to Akron and the surrounding areas

including Cleveland. See the 1st edition stories of Tom and Maybelle Lucas (My

Wife and I) and Joe Doppler (The European Drinker) talking about 70 people at

the weekly meeting.

 

There was no "Cleveland Group" before May 11th 1939. Stories written and

published in the OM and the Big book (1st ed.) published April 10, 1939. Bill

kind of misspoke in AA comes of age and the foreword to the 2nd edition when he

said there was a third group in Cleveland in 1937. What actually occurred is

that the "Clevelanders" began coming to Akron in the summer of 1936 when Joe

Doppler and Bob Oviatt joined up. Several more were added in 1937 but they all

drove up to Akron for the weekly Oxford Group meeting at the Williams'.

 

Excerpt below from Bill's recounting of the movement's history to the trustees

via letter in late 1940.



"When this book appeared in April of last year there were approximately 100 A.A.

members. Two thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or nearby communities in the

northern part of that state. Most of the remainder were in or near New York City

and a few others were scattered along the Atlantic Seaboard. The work had then

been in existence over four years."

 

God Bless

 

John Barton





________________________________

From: buckjohnson41686 buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com>

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 8:38 PM

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: hundred vs. thousand(s)



From: buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com>

(buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com)



SEE MESSAGE 6882, Sun Sep 19, 2010: Already 80 people in the Cleveland group in

Spring 1939?



Geoff Smith noted that in Bill's story, it mentions that "in a western town

there are thousands of members," yet when the book was written there were fewer

than 100 alcoholics total. Was this added to Bill's story later? I don't think

so, as it's in my 1st edition. What is the explanation for this mismatch?



Glenn Chesnut responded:



I think Geoff is referring to the passage found on pp. 15-16 in the current

(4th) edition:



"In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our

families. We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they

seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from 50 to 200 persons. We

are growing in numbers and power."



According to my notes, the "western city" was Cleveland, and in the second

printing of the 1st edition, among the changes made:



On page 25 line 23, 80 of us was changed to 500 of us.



And on page 25 line 26, 40-80 persons was changed to 50-200 persons.



Later on, in the third printing of the 1st edition, on page 25 line 23, 500 of

us was changed to 1000 of us.



Is this the passage that you are asking about, Geoff?



There is still the question of the Big Book's original statement that in 1939

there were 80 people in the Cleveland area (even if we count families as well as

the alcoholics themselves), with 40 to 80 people attending "informal gatherings"

there. Has this group ever looked at those numbers? Are they are all possible?


0 -1 0 0
8330 brian koch brian koch RE: Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 4/4/2012 11:11:00 AM


Wow. This was a thesis statement and the title is typewritten as follows?



"A CUTURAL HISTORY OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS"



No spellcheck needed to be a Dr?

___________________________________________





From: barefootbill@optonline.net

Subject: Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960



Kevin Kaufmann, "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of

Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960," Ph.D. thesis at Loyola University in Chicago,

August 2011.



Google search under the title "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of

Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960" (it's a .pdf document) or copy & paste the

following link:



http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=luc_diss&s

ei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%

3Drigorous%2520honesty%2520a%2520cultural%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26sqi%3D2%

26ved%3D0CCUQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fecommons.luc.edu%252Fcgi%252Fvi

ewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1072%2526context%253Dluc_diss%26ei%3Det16T4mQO

ITw0gGp8fiUBg%26usg%3DAFQjCNGhz2v7ikaI0f-odR3uXVOPuKNdxA%26cad%3Drjt#search=

%22rigorous%20honesty%20cultural%22





Just Love,

Barefoot Bill


0 -1 0 0
8331 Jon Markle Jon Markle Re: Beer served at AA meeting? Beer served at AA meeting? 3/29/2012 5:43:00 AM


This gave me a wonderful warm chuckle this morning. As I can recall one night,

my grand-sponsor, John W, relating this story, about that beer drinking group.



I can still remember him asking me once, on the night of my proud announcement

of being sober for 3 months: "and Jon, how's that marijuana going for you?"

LOL Of course, I was still determined to do what we laughingly referred to as

"Jon's Marijuana Maintenance Program". That was my second attempt to stay

sober without working the steps.



I'm now on my third . . . . and this time I'm following the suggestions found in

the Book and the 12x12. Seems it works better when I follow the directions.





Jon Markle

Raleigh, NC

9.9.82



On Mar 24, 2012, at 12:19 PM, hdmozart wrote:



From the beginning the southern drunks presented special problems. For example a

group in Richmond, Virginia, believed in holding regular meetings, in getting

away from their wives and talking things over, but saw no reason not to drink

beer at their meetings. It took time and the dedicated work of one John W. to

bring them around.


0 -1 0 0
8332 B B Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/29/2012 3:13:00 PM


This from the multilith version of the 1938 manuscript. Appears in Bill's story.



"We commenced to make many fast friends and a fellowship has grown up among us

of which it is a wonderful thing to feel a part. The joy of living we really

have, even under pressure and difficulty. I have seen one hundred families set

their feet in the path that really goes somewhere; have seem the most impossible

domestic situations righted; feuds and bitterness of all sorts wiped out. I have

seen men come out of asylums and resume a vital place in the lives of their

families and communities. Business and professional men have regained their

standing. There is scarcely any form of trouble and misery which has not been

overcome among us. In one Western city and its environs there are eighty of us

and our families. We meet frequently at our different homes, so that newcomers

may find the fellowship they seek. At these informal gatherings one may often

see from 40 to 80 persons. We are growing in numbers and power."



_____________________________________________



> From: "B"

> (kochbrian at hotmail.com)

>

> More information comes in. Here is Bill's story as it appeared in the first

printing.

>

> "There is scarcely any form of human misadventure and misery which has not

been

> overcome among us. In a Western city and its environs, there are sixty of us

and

> our families. We often meet informally at our houses, so that newcomers may

find

> what they seek. Gatherings of twenty to sixty are common. We are growing in

> numbers and power."



- - - -



> From: Dudley Dobinson

> (DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

>

> Hi, The first printing on page 25 (Now 15) says 80 members and "At these

informal

> gatherings one may often see from 40 to 80 persons." On page 27 (Now 17)

refers

> to "One hundred men who were just as hopeless as Bill." Adjustments were made

in

> later printings.

>

> Dudley D. Birr Ireland


0 -1 0 0
8333 Bryan S. Reid Bryan S. Reid Re: Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets 3/28/2012 9:40:00 PM


I certainly heard "you're only as sick as your secrets" regularly when I

was early in the program. When it was said publicly (i.e., in a meeting),

it was a general statement directed at no one in particular, almost always

in the context of discussing getting honest.



When I heard it from my sponsor and a couple of old-timers who had taken me

under their wings, it was initially directed to "Bryan, you have got to get

honest with yourself," meaning I'd never get anywhere with my recovery

until I got truly honest with myself. Subsequently, it was meant as "Bryan,

you have to get honest with others," meaning things I kept totally secret

and didn't share with anyone were going to end up eating me up inside. It

was almost always one-on-one, although occasionally with my sponsor and two

of the old-timers going out after a meeting for coffee (known as the 100

Year Club - I had about a year and the rest of them made it add up to 100

years; actually it was about 103). It really brings tears to my eye to

think about those nights and what those men did for me. There was

absolutely nothing too stupid for me to say or ask with them.



I still hear it in meetings and occasionally use it myself. It helped me a

lot. I never could have done the 4th and 5th Steps without having gotten

with myself first. Admittedly, I can only evaluate it in the context of my

own experience.



Having said that, when you're really new, really green and really raw, you

grab at anything that works. In my first month, I can remember one of the

old-timers saying to me and a couple of guys with roughly the same amount

of time, you only have to do 4 things: If it's not right don't do it, if

it's not yours don't take it and if it's not true don't say it. He said if

you do that and don't drink between meetings, you'll be off to a great

start. Another one that's not in the BB or 12+12, but it worked for me.



I have to wonder if it would have been an anathema to Bill and Dr. Bob, and

the first 100. As I've listened to talks given by them, they stressed that

getting honest was crucially important to getting sober and staying sober.



And I believe it to be true - things that I live in denial of or stuff

inside to hide them from other people will ultimately take me back out.



Greetings to all from SE Arizona,



Bryan



Highway 92 Group

Sierra Vista AZ


0 -1 0 0
8334 Bill Lash Bill Lash Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/4/2012 6:05:00 PM


I just wanted to point out very quickly that the Joe & Charlie Big Book

Studies were NOT scripted. A transcript of one of their studies that was

originally recorded on cassette is available online & can be also found at

www.justloveaudio.com by clicking on “free resources” & then clicking on

“assorted” & then scroll down to “Big Book Study (Joe & Charlie)”. That is

where I think the Step 3 material is from that Larry is talking about. It

is from a full transcript of a recording & is NOT a copy of a script that

you may have imagined they read. Typing into a computer every word of the

entire weekend presentation (eight 90-minute cassettes) is an extreme

example of someone who had way too much free time. But it also shows the

importance that someone gave to the Joe & Charlie Big Book Studies. I know

these studies radically changed my life for the better.



Just Love,

Barefoot Bill



- - - -



From: Laurence Holbrook

Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012

Subject: Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout



I have not participated in a Joe & Charlie Big Book study group - I

understand it is a 'scripted' study ....


0 -1 0 0
8335 Nancys Cell Nancys Cell Joe and Charlie 4th Step Forms Joe and Charlie 4th Step Forms 4/4/2012 8:21:00 PM


I was privileged to attend numerous Big Book Seminars in Sacramento, California

including the 20th and final one in 2005. Willie B., who presented the Steps

from the Twelve and Twelve, was my sponsor for several years until her death,

January 23, 2011.



Charlie P. personally approved the the Fourth Step forms that I recreated on my

computer and continue to share with other members. We use these forms for the

Fourth Step during our weekly Book Study group in Lodi, California and I also

use them with my AA babies. Since they were created in InDesign, which not

everyone has, I saved the document in PDF format for your viewing and use.

Please go to the document at



http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/4th%20Step%20Inventory.pdf



Thanks to Laurence Holbrook for creating the link on his website. Pass it on!



Love in Service,



Nancy Karvonen

Galt, California

5/24/72


0 -1 0 0
8336 Jon Markle Jon Markle Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan Thoughts on Bill Swegan 3/29/2012 7:21:00 AM


From: Jon Markle, Sherry C. Hartsell, Woody in Akron, and Charley B ill



- - - -



From: Jon Markle (jon.markle@mac.com) >

(jon.markle at mac.com)



When working with someone who has been drinking large quantities of alcohol,

they probably should have a medical detox, in a facility where they can be

closely watched and treated if necessary. Detoxing off of alcohol can be very

dangerous and sometimes deadly. It's dangerous for us to offer speculation and

advice unless we are medically trained to do so.



In the early days, I believe that most drunks were of the "hopeless" variety and

the general consensus was to take your man to a hospital if available, for

detox. Today, not every drunk needs to be detoxed because our "bottom" has been

raised.



Medical detox has been abused by some of "us" because it's an easy way to get

through a hang over. Drugs are the new alcohol. There seems to be some concern

in the recovery community and among some professionals about the wisdom of using

too many drugs, especially for the "revolving door" alcoholics -- meaning they

are now addicts in addition to being alcoholics.



I know that some current models of recovery type "houses" use a step up method,

where the client is assessed as to whether they need medical detox, or can go

through a "social detox" without medication, but under observation.



Jon Markle

Raleigh, NC

9.9.82



- - - -



From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" hartsell@etex.net >

(hartsell at etex.net)



Yep, I got karo syrup over ice w/lemon squeezed into it, glass after glass for

first 2-3 days!



- - - -



From: Robt Woodson wdywdsn@sbcglobal.net >

(wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net)



Re: Karo and OJ ...



I made and served many such "cocktails" which included stirred in brown sugar

and a whipped raw egg for protein as a long term kitchen trustee in the local

county jail during that period ... as I remember it, the real deal had sometimes

included a shot of liquor to begin with ... to ease the shakes. They were

"swimming" on cold tile and concrete floors in the "drunk tank" there ... no

doctors.



From the "not so fond" memories deparyment,

Woody in Akron



- - - -



From: Charley B ill charley92845@gmail.com >

(charley92845 at gmail.com)



Here in Southern California, in the early '70s I was visited by a task force

from the Icebreakers Group and the Dry Dock Group.They arranged for 24/7

coverage in our little house and always had that abominable hot warm orange

juice and syrup. As far as I kmow, no dedicated medical support, but we all had

basic medical in the military.



- - - -



ORIGINAL MESSAGES WERE



From: Margie Keith

Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012

Subject: Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan



In the early 70's we were still giving karo syrup and orange juice but had a

doctor on stand by.



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com on Mar 22, 2012:



It used to be said that the first 36 hours of not drinking were the most

dangerous for the alcoholic that is being treated in recovering from the effects

of alcohol. So the medical people were supposed to sedate the alcoholic during

this time to reduce the risk of his dying. I think we should not lose sight of

this if we are working with someone with acute alcoholism.



- - - -



With reference to Bill Swegan's scientific journal article on the advantages to

using tranquillizers to help alcoholics through early detox instead of the

substances like barbiturates (as in the case of Dr. Bob) and paraldehyde, that

were used in earlier AA practice.


0 -1 0 0
8337 Masterman Masterman Did anyone tape or film the Grapevine play In Our Own Words? Did anyone tape or film the Grapevine play In Our Own Words? 4/2/2012 7:56:00 PM


I was a sponsee of Sybil Corwin.



My name is Matt, and I wanted to ask, did anyone tape or film the Grapevine play

"In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous"?



I'm sure Sybil would have loved it. When she was doing her 12 year service as

the executive secretary of the Central Office in LA she said they ordered

hundreds of the pamphlets explaining the NEW 12 traditions that AA did not have

when she got sober in 1941 so they used to go around and they did a "Traditions

Play" which you can get a copy of from the NY Office (I'm sure you all know

that) so they went around to all the meetings (there was only one in LA at her

first meeting 3/21/1941, and had grown to over a hundred and present day over

2000 in the LA area alone.



Back then, if you started a meeting you owned it. They got furious at Tex Adams,

Sybil's brother who started the "hole in the ground" meeting in huntington park.

He told them it was a long rough drive to downtown LA from his home (no freeways

back then, no route 10, no route 5).



They told him they had hired a lawyer and were going to incorporate AA in Los

Angeles and he could consider himself excommunicated from the group. He laughed

at them and told them that they might as well try to incorporate a sunrise and

predicted that there would be hundreds of groups popping up all over southern

California.



Anyway if anyone has a tape of the Grapevine Play I would be so appreciative.



If you'd like to here about Sybil's sponsee Irma Livoni who got kicked out of AA

you can read about it (too long to post here) at



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-irma_livoni.html



also a picture of my wonderful Sybil, she and I were on her porch, talking about

AA. Bob was going to color her hair that day so she was wearing her "my grey is

showing" cap.



Much AA love to you all,



Matt



pupmasters@yahoo.com





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , "jaxena77" wrote:

>

> To Our Friends and Supporters in the AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group,

>

> We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own

Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County

for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell

Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph,

Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in

Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the

researching and writing of this documentary style play.

>

> Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only

audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to

anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON!

>

> In Love and Service,

> Jackie B.

>

> ===============================================

> FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS:

> http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/

> ===============================================


0 -1 0 0
8338 marathonmanric marathonmanric TEMPORARY: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? TEMPORARY: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 4/3/2012 8:17:00 PM


Mr Moderator,



I replied to this post stating that I grew up my first ten years in AA, in

Miami, and explained what I heard and know of the Miami Heart Institute where

Bill Wilson passed. I received an email, out of the group, of one who wanted to

know a bit more that I could share. I've lost or have accidently deleted the

email address and wonder if I might post a call, if that someone sees it, they

can re-email me. Thank you, Ric







Hi, I'm Ric, a happy and grateful alcoholic, When this thread was active, I

received a personal reply which I have since lost. If you contacted me

concerning The Miami Heart Institute and Bill W's passing, please reply again so

that I may continue our conversation.



Thank you,



Ric in Salinas, Ca



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote:

>

> I have seen some obits for bill and they mention a Miami Florida Hospital.

Does anyone know which hospital it was? Thanks to all my fellow history buffs.

>


0 -1 0 0
8339 J. Lobdell J. Lobdell John Mark Whalon John Mark Whalon 4/5/2012 12:10:00 AM


From: J. Lobdell jlobdell54@hotmail.com > (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



John Mark Whalon was b. Dorset VT June 16 1886 [WW2 Draft Card], unmarried in

1942.



Inducted April 21 1918 attended School of Aerial Photography overseas Oct 15

1918 to Feb 18 1919



In 1918 a surveyor employed by William Griffith and unmarried [WW1 Draft Card]



The 1927 birth certificate of Cornelius Bayard Whalon shows father John Mark

Whalon, mother Kathleen Isabel Whalon: the two were married in Canada.



His Sept 21 1956 obituary gives his birth as August 6, 1886 [error], his

surviving son as Lawrence [no surviving widow], but his name is indeed John Mark

Whalon. The 1930 Mark A Whalon, wife Kathleen, children Lawrence and Cornelius,

is clearly [an error for] our John Mark Whalon.



He appears as John M. in the 1900 Census, with his father William C. [b. 1855]

having both parents born in Ireland and his mother Rose [Kelleher] [b. 1862]

having both parents born in Ireland. -- Jared


0 -1 0 0
8340 LES COLE LES COLE More on Mark Whalon More on Mark Whalon 3/31/2012 4:13:00 PM


The US Census for 1910 shows the following:



John M Whalon

Age 23 Male White American

Est Birth year 1887

Birth location: Dorset, Bennington,VT



Relation to Head: Son

Head of household: William C.



Other people in household:

William Whalon: 56 Yrs, Male, Father

Rose Whalon: 48 yrs, Female, Mother

William Whalon: 27 yrs, Male, Sibling

Mary Whalon: 18 yrs, Female



Father's First Name: William C.

Father's Last Name: Whalon

Father's Birthplace: Vermont

Mother's First Name: Rose K.

Mother's Birthplace: Scotland



Marital Status: Single



Sheet: ASheet number: 12

Collection: 1910 U.S. Federal Population Census


0 -1 0 0
8341 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 3/30/2012 5:48:00 PM


Members



I do not see the reference to a "spiritual level" in the paragraph below. I

would like to view this entire article by Bill if anyone has a link. Is Bill

referring to AA clubs as in "Alano" clubs and the like?



In Service With Gratitude,



Chuck Parkhurst





-----Original Message-----

From: joelford@pacbell.net

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012

Subject: Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level



See paragraph 2 on "Clubs in AA" by Bill W. in the April 1947 AA Grapevine:



"As the majority view, we might suppose that to be a blanket endorsement of

clubs; we might think we couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them

as a central AA institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery

program without which the other Twelve Steps wouldn't work. At times club

enthusiasts will act as though they really believed we could handle our alcohol

problems by club life alone. They are apt to depend upon clubs rather than upon

the AA program."


0 -1 0 0
8342 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/4/2012 3:27:00 PM


The 2005 Holiday (Christmas) issue of Box 4-5-9, the AA General Service Office

newsletter, gave an account of requests for advice about study guides from

members and groups in the 1970s. AA World Services set up a committee to discuss

the issue and in 1977 published a position paper entitled, "Big Book Study

Guides and other interpretations of the AA program."



It said inter alia: "The Board recognises that AA is a program of

self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action - and that the use of study

guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not generally

appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic. There are no

authorities in AA and even a self-appointed 'teacher' has feet of clay. Hence,

it is preferable that the individual member or prospect interpret the literature

according to his/her own point of view."


0 -1 0 0
8343 trysh travis trysh travis 13th step as a spiritual level 13th step as a spiritual level 4/5/2012 9:43:00 AM


I'm following this thread with interest, as it seems particularly ironic

that what started out as the idea of a 13th Step as a higher spiritual

level would become the slang term for sexualized bad behavior.



Is this mention in the 1947 Grapevine article on Clubs the earliest known

usage of 13th Step as a spiritual level? And following on that, what is our

earliest known example of the term being used the other way, as a term for

"hooking up" within the fellowship? Victor and Lil are described in *Dr.

Bob and the Good Oldtimers* as "writ[ing] the 13th step long before the

first 12 were ever thought of" (page 97), but are there other publications

(GSO published or regional) that use it earlier?



Trysh Travis



*Points: the Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society*

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/



*The Language of the Heart: the Recovery Movement from AA to Oprah*

http://uncpress.unc.edu/books/T-8279.html


0 -1 0 0
8344 cometkazie1@cox.net cometkazie1@c... Irma Livoni Irma Livoni 4/5/2012 10:41:00 AM


I have heard the Irma Livoni story almost since I hit the doors of A.A.



However, I have never heard from a credible source what happened to her

after she was kicked out of A.A.



I would think her sponsor may have known or even done something to help

her.



Are there any citations besides "I heard it in a meeting" that shed some

light on her?



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8345 cometkazie1@cox.net cometkazie1@c... Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/5/2012 10:58:00 AM


Is it the current official position of AA that "the use of

study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is ... not

generally appropriate"?





============

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Laurie Andrews wrote:

> The 2005 Holiday (Christmas) issue of Box 4-5-9, the AA General

> Service Office newsletter, gave an account of requests for advice

> about study guides from members and groups in the 1970s. AA World

> Services set up a committee to discuss the issue and in 1977 published

> a position paper entitled, "Big Book Study Guides and other

> interpretations of the AA program."

> It said inter alia: "The Board recognises that AA is a program of

> self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action - and that the use of

> study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not

> generally appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic.

> There are no authorities in AA and even a self-appointed 'teacher' has

> feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the individual member or

> prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own point of

> view."

============





I find this paragraph a bit puzzling given the history of A.A.



In our pioneering days, it was not at all uncommon for groups to have

formal training for newbies. Indeed, that was one of the requirements

for full membership before the Traditions were confirmed in 1950. The

Little Red Book sprang from the course outline of one of these

instruction programs and I find it very solid and use it myself.



There are many gurus who take their pony shows on the road. Joe and

Charly have been mentioned. There are more. Gurus apparently vie to do

workshops. Back to Basics is thought a lot of by some.



One of the dangers that I have heard mentioned since my beginning in

A.A. is to not interpret our program by yourself.



I would also question the self-diagnosis statement, but that is a

different issue.



Is the position outlined above the current position of A.A.?



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8346 starshine1943 starshine1943 Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 4/5/2012 6:47:00 AM


The complete article for the reference begins on Page 46 in Language of the

Heart - an article on Clubs. As the originator of this question, I believe this

may be the reference I was remembering having read.



However, I have now found another reference to the 1955 International

Convention. GSO says they do not have the transcript of Bill's remarks there

and suggested we check with Stepping Stones, which we are doing.


0 -1 0 0
8347 Bill Lash Bill Lash Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted 4/4/2012 5:41:00 PM


From Bill Lash and Shakey Mike



- - - -



From: Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net>

(barefootbill at optonline.net)



Dr. Bob's Home in Akron continues on, despite conviction of former

operations manager



Published: Tuesday, April 03, 2012, 7:00 PM Updated: Wednesday, April 04, 2012,

1:09 AM



By http://connect.cleveland.com/user/jcaniglia/index.html> John Caniglia, The

Plain Dealer



http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dr_bobs_home_continues_on_desp.\

html






AKRON, Ohio - The iconic home on Ardmore Avenue will continue to educate

visitors and honor the legacy of Dr. Robert Smith, the co-founder of Alcoholics

Anonymous.



What appears somewhat less known is the fleecing of the nonprofit that

operates the home.



Raymond Collins, 48, of Akron was sentenced to two years' probation in

January after he pleaded guilty to a charge of grand theft in Summit County

Common Pleas Court. Collins, who oversaw the nonprofit's books, took $52,872

from February 2009 through July 2011, Akron police said. He was ordered to make

restitution.



A police report said Collins used a Dr. Bob's Home bank card "beyond the

intended use by purchasing personal items and making large ATM withdrawals."



In public filings with the IRS, Dr. Bob's Home said it had assets of $497,295 at

the end of 2010, the most recent year available.



Attempts to reach Collins were unsuccessful. His attorney, Donald Hicks,

declined to comment.



Harmon Velie, who is listed as the chairman of the Dr. Bob's Home board, called

Collins' actions "an internal matter." He said Collins was dismissed "because of

the misappropriation of funds." He declined to discuss the issue further.



The nonprofit maintains and operates the home at 855 Ardmore, which serves as a

resource to teach guests of AA's beginnings in Akron and serves as an

inspirational setting for AA members around the world, according to the

nonprofit's public filings with IRS.



It is listed as the "birthplace of Alcoholics Anonymous" by the National

Register of Historic Places.



It is where Smith lived from 1915 to 1950, according to the group's web site.

While in Akron, Smith met Bill Wilson, a New York businessman, who, like Smith,

struggled with alcoholism. They worked with others and wrote the book,

"Alcoholics Anonymous," in 1939.



Collins has never been in trouble before, according to court records. It is

unclear what Collins did with the funds, but records suggest he had struggled

financially. The Akron Beacon Journal reported in 2002 that one of Collins'

children had serious medical problems.



Federal court documents show he filed for bankruptcy in 2006, citing liabilities

of $176,000 and assets of $109,000. Records indicate that he worked at Dr. Bob's

Home for about 18 months, beginning about early 2009.



In a March 2011 story about Dr. Bob's Home, the Beacon Journal interviewed

Collins and Velie about the home's repairs. The group bought it in the

mid-1980s. Collins told the newspaper that people come to the house from around

the world to look around and learn.



"It happens all the time," the paper quoted Collins. Visitors walk in, and "they

just break out in tears."



He told the paper about two visitors who stopped on their way from Mexico City

to New York City. Once they walked in the door, they "dropped to their knees and

started praying," the paper quoted Collins.



Plain Dealer news researcher Jo Ellen Corrigan contributed to this story.



- - - -



From: "Shakey Mike" Shakey1aa@aol.com > (Shakey1aa at aol.com)



Dear AAHistoryLovers:



A visitor to our site who reported his/her email address as shakey1aa@aol.com

thought you would be interested in this item from Cleveland.com



http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dr_bobs_home_continues_on_desp.\

html




Shakey Mike

I saw this article about Dr Bob's House. It discusses our History.

The unfortunate part of this story is that it casts an unfavorable response, by

those"normals" who read it, that alcoholics are dishonest. On the other hand why

would the non proffit need with almost 500,000 dollars? Does any one know if

there is a plan to spend the funds to buy another historic home in Akron(like T

henry's house) or do they need that much money to make repairs on the two

properties owned?


0 -1 0 0
8348 Dolores Dolores Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 4/5/2012 2:00:00 PM


Hi, Am sorry, it was Mercedes McCambridge who broke her anonymity before

Congress in 1970 and who had traveled to Bad Cannstadt, to visit the treatment

center there. Dolores





----- Original Message -----

From: Sally Brown

Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012

Subject: Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service



Hi, Dolores - Dave and I hadn't heard about Marty Mann's connection with these

military treatment centers, and would love to learn whatever you find out. In

addition, even though I retired recently as a 20-year staff chaplain at the Palo

Alto VA (Veterans Affairs Health Care System), I will always have a deep

interest in anything involving health treatment of our military, be they active

or vets.



Thanks very much. Sally


0 -1 0 0
8349 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 4/5/2012 2:38:00 PM


Dolores,



With apologies, I only bring this up because there is so much confusion about

this among some of our younger people, and this confusion has begun to do harm

to the fellowship and its proper aims. Both the Twelve Steps and the Twelve

Traditions are interpreted in AA according to the great underlying principle of

ENGLISH COMMON LAW: the interpretation of a law is NOT determined by nit picking

at what some particular phrase in the law COULD be twisted into saying by the

clever use of logic. It is based mainly on PRECEDENT -- that is, on how earlier

generations actually applied the law in practice.



Put in simple Anglo-Saxon, "if our grandfathers and grandmothers did it that

way, then it's perfectly legitimate for us to do it that way."



Let me give an example from AA history, so you can see how this principle has

regularly been applied in AA: Logically, you could argue that the third step

requires all AA members to use the word "God" whenever they speak, even if they

disagree on some of the traditional theological points about God, and you could

certainly argue (logically) that atheists absolutely couldn't be permitted in

the fellowship. But from the traditional practice of the good oldtimers we know

that open atheists were allowed to be AA members from the very beginning. And so

we have to continue to accept them now. As you well know, a good deal of

European AA would be wiped out, if we didn't follow that precedent and continue

to accept atheists into AA with open arms and cries of joy.



That's why I'm raising this question, again with apologies, but it is an

important question.



In Message #8348 you referred to "Mercedes McCambridge who broke her anonymity

before Congress in 1970."



Are you sure about that? Did she "break her anonymity"? Have you checked the

full transcript of her testimony before the Senate committee? Have you at least

checked Nancy Olson's book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends"? She records a

lot of the Senate testimony in one part of that book.



===============================

Nancy Olson's rather long book is now available as a Kindle e-book

for $3.99 from Amazon, if you have hitherto been put off by the price:

http://www.amazon.com/With-Lot-Help-Our-Friends/dp/0595270379

===============================



Nancy Olson (who later founded the AAHistoryLovers) was the one who was

coordinating and vetting all the people who testified before that particular

U.S. Senate committee, and she was being extremely careful to school them in

advance about what they could and could not say without breaking AA rules.



The important distinction is that you are not "breaking your anonymity" (in the

sense of the Twelve Traditions) if you acknowledge in public that you are an

alcoholic. It's O.K. to say that you are a "recovered alcoholic" (the

phraseology which Nancy and Marti Mann preferred in public settings) and it is

O.K. to say that you are a "recovering alcoholic" -- as long as you don't

mention that you are an AA member.



But as long as you are alive, you break the anonymity rule in the Twelve

Traditions if you say in public (or write in the public media) that you are an

AA member (and you also reveal your last name or allow your face to be

photographed).



That is the old AA tradition, the way it was practiced by a large number of the

good oldtimers. Betty Ford (April 8, 1918 - July 8, 2011, President Ford's wife)

followed that practice, and the AA good oldtimers of that era praised her. She

publicly admitted to being a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, but never

mentioned her membership in AA.



But Father Ralph Pfau and Lillian Roth both got Bill Wilson very angry at them

when they revealed in the public media that they were members of AA -- that was

because they talked about their AA membership, and gave their full names (and in

Pfau's case, numerous full face photographs accompanying his autobiography in

Look magazine).



That's the crucial distinction. If Mercedes McCambridge told the Senate

committee about her alcoholism (which she did), that was O.K. But if she talked

about being an AA member, then she was "breaking her anonymity" and violating

the Twelve Traditions.



And I can't remember now whether she did or didn't. But Nancy never said there

were any problems in her case.



Glenn C.



P.S. There is fine point here that maybe needs discussing in a bit more detail.

You could in fact testify before that U.S. Senate committee and reveal the fact

that you were an A.A. member, is long as you did not give your last name, and

did not allow the newspaper photographers or television cameras to show your

face. That is what Nancy set up when Bill Wilson testified before the committee.

The television cameras were only allowed to show the back of his head. There was

one U.S. Navy officer where they also made sure that the TV cameras only showed

him from the back. (Although Nancy, very clever woman, made sure that he was

asked to raise his hand at one point, so the cameras could show all his gold

braid glistening in the TV lights!).



But if I remember correctly, the whole point of having Mercedes McCambridge

testify lay in having the public know who she was, so my assumption is that

Nancy must have lectured Mercedes very stiffly about not revealing her AA

membership. When Nancy was in that kind of mood, she tended to sign her memos

"Nancy Rex" (as in Tyrannosaurus Rex).


0 -1 0 0
8350 Dolores Dolores Re: alcoholism in the military service -- Mercedes McCambridge alcoholism in the military service -- Mercedes McCambridge 4/7/2012 2:36:00 PM


[With reference to Mercedes McCambridge's testimony before the U.S. Senate

committee on alcoholism, during the period when Senator Harold Hughes, Nancy

Olson, Mrs. Marty Mann, and other AA members were working to get the Hughes Act

passed by the U.S. Congress and then enabled by receiving the funds necessary to

implement it.]



From Dolores:



Greetings, I have this statement from Mercedes on an old tape. She is

speaking to a group of people, it is a very cold day, and she relates how her

mother and relatives reacted to what she did. Senator Hughes asked her to do

what she did and she did comply. I would have not stated this so openly if I

didn't have it on an old tape. An AA member gave me the tape many years ago.



Dear Glenn, I want to thank you for the clear explanation of saying I am an

alcoholic in conjunction with AA. I remember Mercedes saying when she was asked

to share-testify in Congress, that all lights went on, and the reporters were

there taking her picture. I was very moved by her tape.



You know the chaplains and the medics were influential in helping the military

AAs to hold meetings on the bases here in Germany. After the Act of Congress, it

was often difficult for the AA members to share in meetings because of the "3rd

party."



My "problem" right now is about putting the CER history on the Website here in

Continental Europe. Our Region said no names because of another mishap some

years ago. I believe that it is a policy to put first names and the first

initial of the last name in histories. Most of the names mentioned in the

history have passed away. But I decided not to put the history on our website.



Dolores


0 -1 0 0
8351 pmds@aol.com pmds@a... Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/5/2012 11:27:00 AM


From pmds, Baileygc, Laurie Andrews, Charlie Parker, M.J. Johnson,

bent_christensen, Jon Markle, John Barton, Tim T. (pvttimt), and Tommy Hickcox



- - - -



From: "Charlie Parker" charlieparker@prodigy.net >

(charlieparker at prodigy.net)



I'm curious who was on this board and how subjective their opinions were.



"The Board recognises that AA is a program of self-diagnosis, self-motivation

and self action" sounds dangerous for a person that has also acknowledged that

selfishness and self-centeredness is the root of their problem. There are lots

of assumptions in their position that make me curious.



Who says that spiritual and academic are mutually exclusive? Who determines if a

teacher is "self appointed"? And finally , if we have to exclude input from

those who have "feet of clay" we might as well throw the whole Big Book away.

"We are not saints" was an understatement and an accurate appraisal of our

founders.



I had never seen this opinion from AAWS but it doesn't shock me. I don't think

that we will ever publish an official study guide but I am in full support of

people studying our literature whether they are in a group or alone (with and

without guides, forms, and teachers).



This has been going on for a long time around our fellowship by many folks that

I have deep respect for.



Respectfully, Charlie P. 3-22-1985 Austin, Tx



- - - -



From: "M.J. Johnson" threeeyedtoad@gmail.com >

(threeeyedtoad at gmail.com)



No - the conclusion that A.A. opposes the use of study guides is based on the

partial quote included below from the December 2005 Box 4-5-9 article. The

article continues:



Of course, while Alcoholics Anonymous has declined to participate in the

production of interpretive material, it does not oppose their publication or

their use by A.A. members. Many members get in touch with the General Service

Office, asking whether they can use study guides. A letter written in 1985 by

Bob P., then general manager of G.S.O., is typical of the replies to such

inquiries: "I don’t see that the use of this material by your group would be

contrary to either the letter or the spirit of the Twelve Traditions .... And if

[your group] wish to use mimeographed guides or forms to help the study of the

book, neither the Board nor this office either endorse or oppose such

materials." Bob went on to explain the position of the A.A.W.S. Board, and

enclosed the 1977 position paper as background.



The issue of Box 4-5-9 that includes this article is available online

(beginning on page 7). See:



http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/en_box459_holiday05-06.pdf



(The full text of this Box 459 article is also given in AAHistoryLovers Message

#8352.)



- - - -



From: "Bent" bent_christensen5@yahoo.com >

(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)



It seems to me that the board with the statement



"The Board recognizes (...) that the use of study guides, courses, classes or

interpretations is therefore not generally appropriate" is on collision course

in relation to Dr. Bob and AA in Akron who made the pamphlet



"A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous"

http://hindsfoot.org/akr12.html



and the early AAs who made beginners lessons entitled



"Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps"

http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html



and the work of many a sponsor throughout the world.



But it may be due to my lack of skills in the English language...



Best wishes

Bent



- - - -



From: Jon Markle jon.markle@mac.com >

(jon.markle at mac.com)



Since the "Big Book", Alcoholics Anonymous, is often referred to as our "text

book", I find no difficulty with study guides.



After all, our Book was written by men (and I suppose a few women), is

considered a "guide" in and of itself.



Nothing could be more ridiculous (to me) than to ban or declare "inappropriate",

any Big Book or Step Study guides, often written by members with much more

sobriety and recovery than the authors of the original guides to recovery.



And since that "other" Book of spiritual direction is often studied in many

ways, with guides of various methods, in educational settings, resulting in

higher degrees, I can see no reason that OUR literature should be any more

special than that . . . for drunks!



A study guide is just that. It is used to enhance and structure the study for

drunks who are otherwise mostly unstructured.



Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling

Retired Therapist & SA Counseling

Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S

HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation

Raleigh, NC



[My *opinions* & observations are my own, obviously. . They do not

necessarily reflect upon any agency in which I have been employed. Please do not

alter, copy, duplicate, refer to or otherwise use this communication for any

publication -- e-mail, paper, book, electronic, or digital medium -- for any

reason, in whole or in part, without my written permission. Thank you.



(FYI: DOS 9.9.82)]



- - - -



From: John Barton jax760@yahoo.com >

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



Might be nice if these people in NY - aka "AAWS Committee" (do they speak for AA

as a whole) looked at the history. Perhaps if they read the Grapevines from the

40s and 50s they can see how well the Beginner's Classes and Step Studies were

received. Like Bill L, I too owe a great deal to Joe and Charlie who made the

Big Book Come Alive for me. In our neck of the woods the classes and workshops

are well received and well attended. Newcomers here in NJ continuously ask for

the handouts and study guides. So actual experience does not verify any wisdom

or "truth" in the AAWS "proclamation."



"Together we can do something I could not do alone."



P.S. In the early days of course a typical response from Bobbie Burger on behalf

of Bill and the NY Office may have read something like this:



The Central Office has no opinion on these matters. If the guides or

publications meet the needs of the local membership then they can certainly be

used. Keep your eye on those Twelve Steps and you can't possibly fail.



In those days there was a little more humility at play in NY. (I have seen

numerous letters from Bobbie to members/groups along these exact lines with

similar issues related to program or fellowship)



Since when does anybody (let alone an "AAWS committee")speak for AA as whole?

Perhaps the collective conscience of the conference is the nearest that any

group or body can come to being the voice of AA.



I was disheartened to see that a "position paper" from 1977 where NY (with all

humility) was issued when they might have taken no position and suggested that

each person determine for themselves whether or not study guides are helpful to

them. I would certainly hope and pray that there is no official "AA position" on

this or any other matter relating to groups and how thet conduct there affairs

other than the 36 principles which have been previously published.



"self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action" and these apply how to "the

real alcoholic"?



"If a mere code of morals, or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to

overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that

such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried."



God Bless,



Sorry for venting!



"By their fruits you will know them"



- - - -



From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com)



During my 34+ years in the AA fellowship, I've encountered some of the more

extreme versions of "study guides, courses, classes or interpretations." Often,

the adherents to these extreme versions claim that their approach is "More

Original" with respect to early AA, and is therefore more authentic and more

effective.



Examples:



1. The Strike Them Sober approach. Years ago in Denver, where I sobered up, a

group calling themselves AA's arrived and set up shop at one of the clubs. They

claimed that "originally" new people were taken by some number of sober AA's and

"worked on" until they had a vital spiritual experience. Then and only then, it

was claimed, could someone have "real" sobriety. These folks would whisk

newcomers away, and work on them someplace until the prospect had some sort of

emotional experience. The newly sobered individual would then be brought back to

the club as an example of the effectiveness of their method.



2. The Manuscript approach. In Phoenix where I lived for some time, some AA's

obtained a photocopy of an "original" manuscript, complete with annotations in

the margins, etc. Their claim was that since the manuscript was "more original"

than the Big Book itself, that centering a meeting around the manuscript and its

annotations would be superior to "regular" AA, more authentic, and more

effective. They started a meeting based on special study of the differences

between the manuscript and the First Edition of the Big Book.



Rumors of other such approaches have reached me over the years.



The commonality among these is the claim of superiority of the "special"

approach. In speaking to folks involved in these operations, they often suggest

that "regular" AA is betraying new people with a pale imitation of the "real" AA

program, which is of course their "more original" way. And that, if only

everyone would listen to them, that AA could save many, many more alkies. I've

even heard the occasional adherent claim that "regular" AA is "killing drunks"

through its unauthentic, less effective mode.



And, of course, the special approaches all come with abundant literature and

adherents, all witnessing to the obvious superiority of their leaders and their

methods. Their literature often selects various passages from historically

authentic AA writings, and fashions it into a unique perspective on recovery.



Interestingly, these sects often focus on a particular personality, often a

charismatic individual, who is, or was, the one who had the original inspiration

that serves as the guiding doctrine.



Clearly, this sort of thing has been ever-present in AA, as the controversy that

existed between Clarence and Bill shows. I suppose that we will always continue

to have phenomena like this in our fellowship. AA is not a religion, but our

recovery is certainly based on attaining something of a spiritual nature. This

being the case, I imagine that we have to expect some of the usual divisions

that have occurred over the millennia in religions.



For myself, our mainline literature suffices. My personal experience tells me

that even though I work with a sponsor, I will get a slightly different

experience from the Big Book and 12x12 than he did; after all, I'm a different

person. The two of us working together with our literature as a guide, need no

self-appointed authorities to interpret the literature and history of AA for us.

If my sponsor has what I want, I'm likely to do what he did, to get what he got.



Finally, when a particular AA tells me that he or she is better than the rest of

us, my skepticism arises. And perhaps, most of all, I'm drawn to the First

Tradition, the "Unity Tradition" and to the Twelfth Tradition's "Principles

before Personalities."



Cheers,

Tim T.



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com >

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



Is it AA's current position? Well, it certainly seemed to be in 2005. Time for a

Conference question?



Of course AA neither endorses nor opposes these outside issues; some members

find such courses helpful, others believe they endanger the Fellowship's unity

by sowing dissension between those who practice such extra-mural activities and

those who don't.



Tradition Three and the Preamble tell us the only requirement for AA membership

is a desire to stop drinking (or to stay stopped); there is no requirement on

anyone to even read the Big Book, let alone to study it, or to be taken through

the program by a sponsor.



PS: BTW Bill W. wrote that, "Every AA has the privilege of interpreting the

program as he likes ..." (As Bill Sees It, page 16)



- - - -



From: pmds@aol.com (pmds at aol.com)



Tommy Hickcox asked, "Is it the current official position of AA that 'the use of

study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is ... not generally

appropriate'?"



I would certainly hope so



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



No matter how AA says it, people want to put themselves up as anointed by

sponsors, or qualified to teach others what AA is about, but AA says there is no

dogma.





______________________________________________



ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM TOMMY HICKCOX AND LAURIE ANDREWS:



From: cometkazie1@cox.net

Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012

Subject: Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout



Is it the current official position of AA that "the use of study guides,

courses, classes or interpretations is ... not generally appropriate"?



============

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Laurie Andrews wrote:

> The 2005 Holiday (Christmas) issue of Box 4-5-9, the AA General

> Service Office newsletter, gave an account of requests for advice

> about study guides from members and groups in the 1970s. AA World

> Services set up a committee to discuss the issue and in 1977 published

> a position paper entitled, "Big Book Study Guides and other

> interpretations of the AA program."

> It said inter alia: "The Board recognises that AA is a program of

> self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action - and that the use of

> study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not

> generally appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic.

> There are no authorities in AA and even a self-appointed 'teacher' has

> feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the individual member or

> prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own point of

> view."

============



I find this paragraph a bit puzzling given the history of A.A.



In our pioneering days, it was not at all uncommon for groups to have

formal training for newbies. Indeed, that was one of the requirements

for full membership before the Traditions were confirmed in 1950. The

Little Red Book sprang from the course outline of one of these

instruction programs and I find it very solid and use it myself.



There are many gurus who take their pony shows on the road. Joe and Charly have

been mentioned. There are more. Gurus apparently vie to do workshops. Back to

Basics is thought a lot of by some.



One of the dangers that I have heard mentioned since my beginning in A.A. is to

not interpret our program by yourself.



I would also question the self-diagnosis statement, but that is a different

issue.



Is the position outlined above the current position of A.A.?



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8352 M.J. Johnson M.J. Johnson Position paper on Big Book Study Guides -- Box 459 Position paper on Big Book Study Guides -- Box 459 4/9/2012 5:54:00 PM


Box 459: News and Notes from the General Service Office of A.A., Vol. 51, No. 6

(2005), p. 7-8.



Big Book Study Guides:

Reviewing a Position Paper



Sober alcoholics are notorious for refusing to be told what to do, say, or

think. The Steps are "suggested," and experienced sponsors are wise enough not

to give newcomers hard and fast directives. Yet paradoxically, a surprising

number of members seek out and rely on study guides when they begin delving into

A.A. literature. A variety of such guides are available, published by non-A.A.

entities. While the General Service Board neither endorses nor opposes these

publications, we have historically declined to produce any kind of interpretive

material ourselves, choosing instead to let our literature stand on its own.



In 1977, faced with a rising number of requests from non-A.A. sources and some

A.A. members to reprint portions of the Big Book and other material in study

guides, the directors of A.A. World Services, Inc. took a hard look at the

subject and appointed a committee to explore the question. Members of the

committee unanimously recommended that the board not grant permission to outside

entities to use excerpts from our literature in study guides, and that A.A.

itself should not publish study guides.



The resulting paper, "Big Book Study Guides and Other Interpretations of the

A.A. Program: A Position Paper," begins with thoughts of several of the

directors who made up the committee. For example, one director wrote: "Part of

the beauty and magic of A.A. is that persons from all walks of life with varied

backgrounds may benefit from the Big Book, the Steps, the Traditions, the

Concepts, from their own points of view. Placing guidelines on paper seems to

say, 'This is the way -- the only way.'



"The thrust of our literature, our program, the Steps, the groups, and the

meetings are all designed, and effectively so, to facilitate self-diagnosis and

self-action within the A.A. environment. I see our literature, particularly the

books, as being study guides. It’s all there .... I almost have the feeling that

the words are living, changing, growing. I know this isn’t so as they are the

same and only I change and grow. But this phenomenon takes place because the

words are the words; they are unlayered, uninterpreted, standing on their own.

One of our slogans is ‘Keep it Simple.’ I believe our books are just simple

enough to stand as they are and just complex enough to live and grow.



"I understand our program to be a spiritual program. I know it has been and is

for me. However, I don’t believe any amount of study with or without

interpretive guides could have given me this. The words were part of it, but the

interaction with other A.A.s at meetings and in face to face discussion is what

really got me into action. Knowing what I should do has been less of a problem

than having the faith to undertake the first quivering right actions. Exposure

to living testament, not written words, provides the spark of faith that results

finally in determined action. I would be sorely troubled to think that we

believed that this would be better packaged than it already is. I think it would

be very unwise to tamper with a delicate balance that seems to be working as

they say, ‘just fine,’ for alcoholics who want it."



Another director felt this way: "My knowledge of recovery has been received in

the Fellowship through the experience of one drunk sharing with another drunk

and it was not received on an instructive basis or in a classroom atmosphere. I

believe that we in A.A. communicate with each other in a language of the heart,

and this type of communication would be extremely difficult with the use of

study guides ....



"Finally, Tradition Two tells me we have but one ultimate authority -- a loving

God as he expresses himself in our group conscience. It seems to me if we allow

interpretations of the Big Book through study guides, we will also undermine our

ultimate authority."



The final policy statement reads as follows: "The A.A. World Services Board of

Directors feels strongly that permission should not be granted to outside

publishers or other parties to reprint A.A. literature for the purpose of study

guides or interpretive or explanatory texts, etc. If such interpretive or study

guides are to be prepared, they should be published by A.A. World Services, Inc.



"The Board recognizes, however, that A.A. is a program of self-diagnosis,

self-motivation and self-action -- and that the use of study guides, courses,

classes or interpretations is therefore not generally appropriate. The program

is spiritual rather than academic. There are no authorities in A.A. and even a

self-appointed ‘teacher’ has feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the

individual member or prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own

point of view. For these reasons, the Board does not plan to publish study

guides or interpretations of A.A. literature at this time."



Of course, while Alcoholics Anonymous has declined to participate in the

production of interpretive material, it does not oppose their publication or

their use by A.A. members. Many members get in touch with the General Service

Office, asking whether they can use study guides. A letter written in 1985 by

Bob P., then general manager of G.S.O., is typical of the replies to such

inquiries: "I don’t see that the use of this material by your group would be

contrary to either the letter or the spirit of the Twelve Traditions .... And if

[your group] wish to use mimeographed guides or forms to help the study of the

book, neither the Board nor this office either endorse or oppose such

materials." Bob went on to explain the position of the A.A.W.S. Board, and

enclosed the 1977 position paper as background.


0 -1 0 0
8353 B B Found: Lloyd Tate, AA#30, author of The Rolling Stone Found: Lloyd Tate, AA#30, author of The Rolling Stone 4/10/2012 2:25:00 PM


Lloyd T's story appeared in the first edition of the Big Book. Born 12 Nov 1888,

got sober in June of 37, out of Cleveland. Was 50 years old when he got sober.



Thanks to Ancestry.com (not a commercial), and the Cleveland Library System, I

found Lloyd's obit in Cleveland Necrology File. A further veteran's search

reveals that Lloyd is buried at Knollwood Cem and Mausoleum in Cleveland. Lot:

S-Wing Ext, Crypt 659-C.



It is my research quest to find as many of the original members and other

influential people in our fellowship. I have info on other early members and

would welcome any information you guys have collected.


0 -1 0 0
8354 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews RE: Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted 4/5/2012 11:57:00 AM


From Laurie Andrews and Brian Koch



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com >

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



That high-pitched whine you hear is Dr Bob spinning ...

How canny Rockefeller was to keep AA poor!

Laurie A.



- - - -



From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com >

(kochbrian at hotmail.com)



As an aside, I have been thoroughly disappointed to have called Dr. Bobs house

three separate times, to inquire about information or archival information, and

have never received a call back. two messages left on the phone, one left with a

person.


0 -1 0 0
8355 WENDI TURNER WENDI TURNER Bill W. home movie Bill W. home movie 4/9/2012 6:31:00 PM


This is amazing ...



This is a very rare film of Bill and Lois at Stepping Stones telling their

story.



http://youtu.be/Mrb1gd0oFTg


0 -1 0 0
8356 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: information on Akron AA history and archives information on Akron AA history and archives 4/10/2012 5:02:00 PM


If I was trying to get info pertaining to anything in Akron, I'd call central

office and ask -- I know there's a volunteer Archivist there a lot of the time

-- Norm



_____________________________________________



Original message from brian koch

kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com)



As an aside, I have been thoroughly disappointed to have called Dr. Bobs house

three separate times, to inquire about information or archival information, and

have never received a call back. two messages left on the phone, one left with a

person.


0 -1 0 0
8357 dave landuyt dave landuyt Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred 4/8/2012 1:45:00 PM


Mr. Barton,



You made mention of "Merton's notes" in your latest AAHL discussing the Names of

the First One Hundred. Is this the Merton who was writing "Black Sheep"? I'd

like to read these if possible.



Thank You,

Dave Landuyt





________________________________

From: jax760 jax760@yahoo.com >

Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012

Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred



Although Burwell is listed for NY he actually bounced around. Both before and

after his relapse in mid 1938 he was living with the Parkurst's in Upper

Montclair, NJ which is where he first met Bill according to Merton's notes.


0 -1 0 0
8358 Jim Robbins Jim Robbins Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 4/5/2012 12:33:00 PM


Language of the Heart, page 46, second paragraph in the article of AA Clubs,

reproduces paragraph 2 on "Clubs in AA" by Bill W. in the April 1947 AA

Grapevine.


0 -1 0 0
8359 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/10/2012 6:23:00 AM


"The Big Book (BB) is often referred to as our 'text book'" (Jon Markle).



Mistakenly so. It is our basic text (dust cover), which is quite different. A

text is neutral; it gives information - e.g. an advertisement, or railway

timetable. A text book gives instructions; it tells you what to do.



The BB says, "If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already

be asking - "What do I have to do?" It is the purpose of this book to answer

such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done." (emphasis

added). NB not - what you have to do. The word instructions does not appear in

the first 164 pp of the Big Book. There are only suggestions, guidance and

directions. A sign post also gives directions, not instructions; but it can't

force anyone to take them. In fact, the BB is a story book. It says so on the

title page: "Alcoholics Anonymous: The story of how many thousands of men and

women have recovered from alcoholism."

We are not book burners. The BB says, "God will constantly reveal more to you

and to us...", and "There are many helpful books also..." But can a group that

requires members to study the BB call itself an AA group?



"The Book that started it all: the original working manuscript of Alcoholics

Anonymous" (Hazelden, 2010) records instances where the pioneers changed

prescriptive language in the manuscript to descriptive. For example, one

marginal annotation says, "We have said constantly the trouble with (religion)

is that they try to dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give

specific instructions in the book such as saying do this and do that?" (page

192). And, "... it is clear from the descriptions of AA's earliest contributors,

as when Ebby Thatcher visited Bill Wilson in November of 1934 or in Bill and

Bob's epic meeting six months later, that neither Ebby nor Bill had any agenda

beyond honestly sharing their experience. Many alcoholics are oversensitive to

even a hint of being controlled ... 'But he did no ranting' is a powerful moment

in Bill's story ... Similarly, Dr Bob's experience shifted when Bill made it

clear that he wasn't there to help him. He was there to help himself." (Original

emphasis).



"There are few absolutes inherent in the 12 Steps. Most Steps are open to

interpretation, based on the experience and outlook of the individual."

(Emphasis added: As Bill Sees It, page 191).



_______________________________________________



Original message from: Jon Markle jon.markle@mac.com >

(jon.markle at mac.com)



Since the "Big Book", Alcoholics Anonymous, is often referred to as our "text

book", I find no difficulty with study guides.



After all, our Book was written by men (and I suppose a few women), is

considered a "guide" in and of itself.



Nothing could be more ridiculous (to me) than to ban or declare "inappropriate",

any Big Book or Step Study guides, often written by members with much more

sobriety and recovery than the authors of the original guides to recovery.



And since that "other" Book of spiritual direction is often studied in many

ways, with guides of various methods, in educational settings, resulting in

higher degrees, I can see no reason that OUR literature should be any more

special than that . . . for drunks!



A study guide is just that. It is used to enhance and structure the study for

drunks who are otherwise mostly unstructured.



Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling

Retired Therapist & SA Counseling

Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S

HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation

Raleigh, NC



[My *opinions* & observations are my own, obviously. . They do not

necessarily reflect upon any agency in which I have been employed. Please do not

alter, copy, duplicate, refer to or otherwise use this communication for any

publication -- e-mail, paper, book, electronic, or digital medium -- for any

reason, in whole or in part, without my written permission. Thank you.



(FYI: DOS 9.9.82)]


0 -1 0 0
8360 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA 4/7/2012 10:33:00 AM


Alan Wilson, bishop of Buckingham, quoted in the Guardian newspaper (7 April

2012):



"Locally, the Church of England is often good news. Individual clergy and

Christians are often liked and respected on the streets. The figure of Jesus

remains broadly attractive, even intriguing and sometimes compelling. But the

national institution appears disconnected from all this, remote, hierarchical,

fixated on its own stuff. The church of the future may be less a civil service

or conventional business, and more a movement like Alcoholics Anonymous, the

ultimate locally delivered, life-changing non-profit organisation. The job of

the hierarchy will be to enable this, not to represent it or control it."


0 -1 0 0
8361 sflower1290 sflower1290 When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? 4/11/2012 10:43:00 PM


Admittedly, I've only been in this a little over 21 years - but almost every

recovery token I've ever received has had "to thine own self be true" around its

circumference. I've done a search through the Big Book (Doctor's Opinion, the

next 164, and the appendices) and I don't find it there, nor in the searchable

versions of the 12 & 12 that I have.



So when a friend asked me, "Where did it come from?" my best shot was to ask my

best resource here on AAHL. We both would appreciate anything you can share.



- - - -



FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR:



I did a search for that phrase in our back AAHL messages, using the little box

at the top on our Message Board:



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages



This is the first step to take whenever we're trying to track down info on

things like this. Doing that, I discovered a reference to the July 1947

Grapevine:



Message #1550

Grapevine, July '47

The Clip Sheet: Excerpts from the Public Press



Wilmington, Del., "News": "'To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as

night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man,' was the quotation used

by a speaker and member of A.A. when he addressed an open meeting of more than

300 persons here last night. The speaker, a resident of Massachusetts, alighted

from a train here when he heard of the local group's meeting and attended as a

spectator. However, he was requested to speak when a speaker scheduled was

unable to attend. The theme of his talk, 'Honesty with One's Self,' was brought

out when he said, 'Sincerity means the difference between those who accomplish

their aims in A.A. and those who don't.'"



And another AAHL message pointed out, for those who did not already know this,

that the phrase was a quote from Shakespeare:



Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 78–80

Polonius:

"This above all: to thine own self be true,

And it must follow, as the night the day,

Thou canst not then be false to any man."



But remember, Polonius was a self-serving old palace politician, and what he

meant by this in that passage from Hamlet was that being "a man of truth" meant

looking out for yourself first at the materialistic level. If you did that, then

technically speaking, you were still being "a man of truth" even if you were

lying to everybody else around you -- and cheating and manipulating and conning

them all the time -- as long as you were doing it in the pursuit of your own

TRUE selfish material self-interest.



So it's best to soft pedal the Shakespearean reference, and think instead about

the truly unselfish and totally honest good old timer who gave you that coin --

that was the man or woman who understood what that phrase was truly supposed to

mean. As the Akron good old timer Ernie Gerig said to young Larry W. (the man

who first introduced me to the AA program), "Larry, you don't ever have to

betray yourself again." That's what "to thine own self be true" means to us AA

folks, not what Polonius was saying it meant.


0 -1 0 0
8362 Jayaa82@earthlink.net Jayaa82@e... Re: information on Akron AA history and archives information on Akron AA history and archives 4/10/2012 5:49:00 PM


The Akron Archives has several members of the committee. They will get back to

you. The best time to reach the archivist is Saturdays.


0 -1 0 0
8363 Bill Lash Bill Lash Dr. Bob's House Manager Convicted (2nd Article) Dr. Bob's House Manager Convicted (2nd Article) 4/12/2012 8:06:00 AM


Second article about Dr. Bob's House Manager Conviction:



http://www.ohio.com/news/local/operations-manager-of-dr-bob-s-home-pleads-guilty\

-to-grand-theft-1.291761




Operations manager of Dr. Bob's Home pleads guilty to grand theft

By Ed Meyer

Beacon Journal staff writer



Akron Beacon Journal Online

Thursday, April 12, 2012



The former operations manager of Dr. Bob's Home, an Akron landmark, has been

sentenced to two years of probation for stealing nearly $53,000 in a lengthy

series of transactions with the nonprofit group's bank credit card, authorities

said.



Raymond C. Collins Sr., 48, who was fired from his caretaker job last summer,

pleaded guilty in Summit County Common Pleas Court to one count of grand theft.



The illegal credit card transactions, according to Akron police records,

occurred over a 2'-year period, beginning in February 2009 and continuing

through July 20 of last year, when Collins was fired.



Akron Police Lt. Rick Edwards said investigators determined the theft involved a

total of $52,892.15



As part of the sentence, Common Pleas Judge Tammy O'Brien ordered Collins to

make restitution.



Under Ohio's new sentencing law, which went into effect Sept. 30 as a means to

reduce the overcrowded state prison population, the judge could not sentence

Collins to prison time because his crime was nonviolent and he had no previous

felony record.



The Ardmore Avenue home, named for Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Dr. Robert

Holbrook Smith, is a destination point for recovering alcoholics from around the

world.



It is noted as 'The Birthplace of Alcoholics Anonymous' in the National Register

of Historic Places, and it has been a museum in the Highland Square area of the

city since the mid-1980s when the nonprofit group bought it.



Group board members did not respond to phone messages seeking comment on the

criminal case.



April Wiesner, chief spokesperson for the Summit County Prosecutor's Office,

said board members discovered the illegal purchases and alerted Akron police.



In a statement to the credit card bank, board members said Collins used the

credit card for personal purchases, cash withdrawals, restaurant meals and for a

Lowe's account without the board's consent, Wiesner said.



In a plea deal finalized Jan. 12 in O'Brien's court, the judge agreed to a

prosecution request to dismiss one additional felony charge for misuse of a

credit card.



Wiesner said the home's board agreed to the resolution of the case.



Under O'Brien's sentencing order, Collins could be sent to prison for one year

if he violates terms of his probation or leaves the state without court

permission.



Ed Meyer can be reached at 330-996-3784 or at emeyer@thebeaconjournal.com


0 -1 0 0
8364 Arthur S Arthur S RE: Bill W. home movie Bill W. home movie 4/11/2012 9:26:00 AM


From Arthur S., Charles Knapp, Barefoot Bill, and starshine1943



- - - -



From: Arthur S arthur.s@live.com > (arthur.s at live.com)



The film can be purchased from GSO - It's item DV-04 in the AAWS Literature

Catalog.



- - - -



From: Charles Knapp cpknapp@yahoo.com >

(cpknapp at yahoo.com)



This isn't rare ........ you can buy the DVD from GSO. Item number DV-04, price

$15.



Charles from Wisconsin



- - - -



From: barefootbill@optonline.net

(barefootbill at optonline.net)



I'm sorry but there is nothing amazing about this video except that it is

illegal to post the full version of a copyrighted film on youtube. You can

easily buy the DVD from the AA General Service Office in NYC who also holds the

copyright.



Just love,

Barefoot Bill



- - - -



Original message from: "starshine1943"

adahl@cfl.rr.com > (adahl at cfl.rr.com)



This is a General Service Office video - and probably copyrighted.





_______________________________________



From: WENDI TURNER wenditurner@gmail.com >

(wenditurner at gmail.com)

Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012

Subject: Bill W. home movie



This is amazing ... This is a very rare film of Bill and Lois at Stepping Stones

telling their story.



http://youtu.be/Mrb1gd0oFTg


0 -1 0 0
8365 B B Grave found: Harry W Latta, AA#16 Grave found: Harry W Latta, AA#16 4/11/2012 2:23:00 PM


Also have located Harry W Latta, AA#16, sobered in July of 36 out of Akron. He

is buried in Rose Hill Burial Park, Akron OH.


0 -1 0 0
8366 (Sender unknown) (Sender unknown) Grave found: Charles H. Simonson, AA#38 Grave found: Charles H. Simonson, AA#38 4/13/2012 1:28:00 PM


From: "B" kochbrian@hotmail.com > (kochbrian at hotmail.com)



Also located Charles H. Simonson, AA#38, Sobered in Sep of 37 also out of Akron.

He is buried at Methodist Cemetery, Salesville OH.


0 -1 0 0
8367 B B Found: Vermont memorial stone for Cebra Graves Found: Vermont memorial stone for Cebra Graves 4/13/2012 8:12:00 AM


Was able to located the memorial stone for Cebra Graves in Vermont. We know him

as one of the men who intervened in court on Ebby's behalf, leading Ebby to the

Oxford Group, and his sobriety. Consequently Ebby was able to reach out to an

old school friend by the name of William G. Wilson. Cebra's father was actually

the judge, probably making it easier to secure the relief.



Cebra is actually buried in Urrogne France, but there is a memorial stone

located in Bennington (VT) Village Cemetery. Born 26 Aug 1899, Died 1 Jan 1979,

Cebra supposedly joined AA later in life while living in France.



A wonderful woman in Bennington who is the source for the info emailed me a map

of the cemetery. On his stone is the inscription "Here long ago for me, Eternity

was born" If you want a copy of the map, just message me:



kochbrian@hotmail.com >

(kochbrian at hotmail.com)



The quest continues. Oh yes, and his middle name was Quackenbush. Nice!!


0 -1 0 0
8368 Steve Flower Steve Flower Re: When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? 4/12/2012 12:24:00 PM


From Steve Flower and stalban



- - - -



Steve Flower steve1290@gmail.com >

(steve1290 at gmail.com)



Glenn, I saw that reference too ... but one reference in 65 years doesn't

explain the larger impact that the phrase has had in the recovery community. For

a phrase that seems to come up regularly in meetings, is frequently (if not

almost always) on recovery tokens....it seemed like there should be more history

to this than that.



I've always understood it in the character of "if I don't take care of me, I

will have nothing to give to anyone else" or "I can't give away what I have not

received," to focus on the out-of-self facet of a seemingly self-centered

phrase.



Just curious if anyone else knew of when it became more of a "mainstream"

concept in our fellowship.



- - - -



From: stalban2001 stalban2001@yahoo.com >

(stalban2001 at yahoo.com)



Adapted from eNotes: Shakespeare Quotes

http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/thine-own-self-true



"To thine own self be true" is Polonius's last piece of advice to his son

Laertes, who is in a hurry to get on the next boat to Paris, where he'll be safe

from his father's long-winded speeches. The other famous bit from this passage

is "neither a borrower nor a lender be."



Polonius has in mind something much more Elizabethan than the self-knowledge and

sense of integrity that the phrase now suggests -- and which is undoubtedly the

intended meaning on those medallions.



As Polonius sees it, borrowing money, loaning money, carousing with women of

dubious character, and other intemperate pursuits are "false" to the self. By

"false" Polonius seems to mean "disadvantageous" or "detrimental to your image";

by "true" he means "loyal to your own best interests." Take care of yourself

first, he counsels, and that way you'll be in a position to take care of others.



There is a certain kind of wisdom in the old man's warnings, of course; but he

repeats orthodox platitudes with unwonted self-satisfaction. Polonius, who is

deeply impressed with his own wordliness, has perfected the arts of protecting

his interests and of projecting seeming virtues, his method of being "true" to

others. Never mind that this includes spying on Hamlet for King Claudius. Never

mind, as well, that many of Polonius's haughty, if not trite, kernels of wisdom

are now taken as Shakespeare's own wise pronouncements on living a proper life.



- - - -



Original message on Wed, Apr 11, 2012

from: sflower1290 steve1290@gmail.com >



> Admittedly, I've only been in this a little over 21 years - but almost

> every recovery token I've ever received has had "to thine own self be true"

> around its circumference. I've done a search through the Big Book (Doctor's

> Opinion, the next 164, and the appendices) and I don't find it there, nor

> in the searchable versions of the 12 & 12 that I have.

>

> So when a friend asked me, "Where did it come from?" my best shot was to

> ask my best resource here on AAHL. We both would appreciate anything you

> can share.

>

> - - - -

>

> FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR:

>

> Message #1550

> Grapevine, July '47

> The Clip Sheet: Excerpts from the Public Press

>

> Wilmington, Del., "News": "'To thine own self be true, and it must follow,

> as night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man,' was the

> quotation used by a speaker and member of A.A. when he addressed an open

> meeting of more than 300 persons here last night. The speaker, a resident

> of Massachusetts, alighted from a train here when he heard of the local

> group's meeting and attended as a spectator. However, he was requested to

> speak when a speaker scheduled was unable to attend. The theme of his talk,

> 'Honesty with One's Self,' was brought out when he said, 'Sincerity means

> the difference between those who accomplish their aims in A.A. and those

> who don't.'"


0 -1 0 0
8369 John Barton John Barton Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred 4/12/2012 3:18:00 PM


Hi Dave,

 

You can start by checking every post Merton put on the AAHL. I assume you have

read Black Sheep so you have that as well. I will look for that specific note

about Burwell.

 

Regards



________________________________



Replying to message from: dave landuyt

dave_landuyt@yahoo.com > (dave_landuyt at yahoo.com)

Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2012

Subject: Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred



Mr. Barton,



You made mention of "Merton's notes" in your latest AAHL discussing the Names of

the First One Hundred. Is this the Merton who was writing "Black Sheep"? I'd

like to read these if possible.



Thank You,

Dave Landuyt



- - - -



Replying to message from: jax760

jax760@yahoo.com > (jax760 at yahoo.com)

Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012

Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred



Although Burwell is listed for NY he actually bounced around. Both before and

after his relapse in mid 1938 he was living with the Parkurst's in Upper

Montclair, NJ which is where he first met Bill according to Merton's notes.


0 -1 0 0
8370 John Barton John Barton Re: Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA 4/12/2012 4:36:00 PM


Of course this reminds me of Sam Shoemaker's great essay c. July 1955



"What the Church Must Learn from Alcoholics Anonymous"



"... God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is

weak in the world to shame the strong ...."

-- I Corinthians 1:26



During the weekend of the Fourth of July last (1955), I attended one of the most

remarkable conventions I ever expect to attend. It was a gathering in St. Louis

of about five thousand members of the movement called Alcoholics Anonymous. The

occasion was the celebration of their twentieth anniversary, and the turning

over freely and voluntarily of the management and destiny of that great movement

by the founders and 'old-timers' to a board which represents the fellowship as a

whole.



As I lived and moved among these men and women for three days, I was moved as I

have seldom been moved in my life. It happens that I have watched the unfolding

of this movement with more than usual interest, for its real founder and guiding

spirit, Bill W., found his initial spiritual answer at Calvary Church in New

York, when I was rector there, in 1935. Having met two men, unmistakable

alcoholics, who had found release from their difficulty, he was moved to seek

out the same answer for himself. But he went further. Being of a foraging and

inquiring mind, he began to think there was some general law operating here,

which could be made to work, not in two men's lives only, but in two thousand or

two million. He set to work to find out what it was. He consulted psychiatrists,

doctors, clergy and recovered alcoholics to discover what it was.



The first actual group was not in New York, but in Akron, Ohio. Bill was

spending a weekend there in a hotel. The crowd was moving towards the bar. He

was lonely and felt danger assailing him. He consulted the church-directory in

the hotel lobby, and found the name of a local clergyman and his church. He

called him on the telephone and said, "I am an alcoholic down here at the hotel.

The going is a little hard just now. Have you anybody you think I might meet and

talk to?" He gave him the name of a woman who belonged to one of the great

tire-manufacturing families. He called her, she invited him out at once and said

she had a man she wanted to have meet him. While he was on his way, she called

Dr. Bob S. and his wife, Anne. Dr. Bob said he'd give her five minutes. He

stayed five hours and told Bill, "You're the only man I've ever seen with the

answer to alcoholism." They invited Bill over from the hotel to stay at their

house. And there was begun, twenty years ago, the first actual Alcoholics

Anonymous group.



The number of them now is beyond count. Some say there are 160,000 to 200,000

recovered alcoholics, but nobody knows how many extend beyond this into the

fringes of the unknown. They say that each alcoholic holds within the orbit of

his problem an average of fourteen persons who are affected by it. This means

that conservatively two and a half million people's lives are different because

of the existence of Alcoholics Anonymous. There is hardly a city or town or even

hamlet now where you cannot find a group, strong and well knit, or struggling in

its infancy. Prof. Austin McCormick, of Berkeley, California, former

Commissioner of Correction in the city of New York, who was also with us at the

St. Louis Convention, said once in my hearing that AA may "prove to be one of

the greatest movements of all time." That was years ago. Subsequently facts

support his prophecy.



On the Sunday morning of the convention, I was asked to talk to them, together

with Fr. Edward Dowling S.J., a wonderful Roman Catholic priest who has done

notable service for AA in interpreting it to his people, and Dr. Jim S., a most

remarkable colored physician of Washington, on the spiritual aspects of the AA

program. They are very generous to non-alcoholics, but I should have preferred

that it be a bona fide alcoholic that did the speaking.



In the course of what I said to them, I remarked that I thought it had been wise

for AA to confine its activity to alcoholics. But, I added, "I think we may see

an effect of AA on medicine, on psychiatry, on correction, on the ever-present

problem of human nature; and not least on the Church. AA indirectly derived much

of its inspiration from the Church. Now perhaps the time has come for the Church

to be re-awakened and re-vitalized by those insights and practices found in AA."



I think some of you may be a little horrified at this suggestion. I fear you

will be saying to yourself, "What have we, who have always been decent people,

to learn from a lot of reconstructed drunks?" And perhaps you may thereby reveal

to yourself how very far you are from the spirit of Christ and the Gospel, and

how very much in need of precisely the kind of check-up that may come to us from

AA. If I need a text for what I say to you, there is one ready to hand in I

Corinthians 1:26, "... God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise,

God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong." I need not remind you

that there is a good deal of sarcasm in that verse; because it must be evident

that anything God can use is neither foolish nor weak, and that if we consider

ourselves wise and strong, we may need to go to school to those we have called

foolish and weak.



The first thing I think the Church needs to learn from AA is that nobody gets

anywhere till he recognizes a clearly defined need. These people do not come to

AA to get made a little better. They do not come because the best people are

doing it. They come because they are desperate. They are not ladies and

gentlemen looking for a religion, they are utterly desperate men and women in

search of redemption. Without what AA gives, death stares them in the face. With

what AA gives them, there is life and hope. There are not a dozen ways, there

are not two ways, there is one way; and they find it, or perish. AA's each and

all have a definite, desperate need. They have the need, and they are ready to

tell somebody what it is if they see the least chance that it can be met.



Is there anything as definite for you or me, who may happen not to be

alcoholics? If there is, I am sure that it lies in the realm of our conscious

withholding of the truth about ourselves from God and from one another, by

pretending that we are already good Christians. Let me here quote a member of AA

who has written a most amazing book: his name is Jerome Ellison, and the book is

"Report to the Creator." In this (p. 210) he says, "The relief of being accepted

can never be known by one who never thought himself unaccepted. I hear of 'good

Christian men and women' belonging to 'fine old church families.' There were no

good Christians in the first church, only sinners. Peter never let himself or

his hearers forget his betrayal in the hour the cockcrow. James, stung by the

memory of his years of stubborn resistance, warned the church members: 'Confess

your faults to one another.' That was before there were fine old church

families. Today the last place where one can be candid about one's faults is in

church. In a bar, yes; in a church, no. I know; I've tried both places." Let

that sting you and me just as it should, and make us miserable with our church

Pharisaism till we see it is just as definite and just as hideous as anybody's

drunkenness can ever be, and a great deal more really dangerous.



The second thing the Church needs to learn from AA is that men are redeemed in a

life-changing fellowship. AA does not expect to let anybody who comes in stay as

he is. They know he is in need and must have help. They live for nothing else

but to extend and keep extending that help. Like the Church, they did not begin

in glorious Gothic structures, but in houses or caves in the earth, --wherever

they could get a foothold, meet people, and gather. It never occurs to an AA

that it is enough for him to sit down and polish his spiritual nails all by

himself, or dust off his soul all by himself, or spend a couple of minutes

praying each day all by himself. His soul gets kept in order by trying to help

other people get their souls in order, with the help of God. At once a new

person takes his place in this redeeming, life-changing fellowship. He may be

changed today, and out working tomorrow--no long, senseless delays about giving

away what he has got. He's ready to give the little he has the moment it comes

to him. The fellowship that redeemed him will wither and die unless he and

others like him get in and keep that fellowship moving and growing by reaching

others. Recently I heard an AA say that he could stay away from his Veteran's

meeting, his Legion, or his Church, and nobody would notice it. But if he stayed

away from his AA meeting, his telephone would begin to ring the next day!



A life-changing fellowship" sounds like a description of the Church. It is of

the ideal Church. But the actual. Not one in a hundred is like this. The layman

say this is the minister's job, and the ministers say it is the evangelist's

job, and body finds a rationalized excuse for not doing what every Christian

ought to be doing, i.e. bringing other people into the redeeming, life-changing

fellowship.



The third thing the Church needs to learn from AA is the necessity for definite

personal dealing with people. AA's know all the stock excuses -- they've used

them themselves and heard them a hundred times. All the blame put on someone

else --my temperament is different -- I've tried it and it doesn't work for me

-- I'm not really so bad, I just slip a little sometimes. They've heard them

all, and know them for the rationalized pack of lies they are. They constitute,

taken together, the Gospel of Hell and Failure. I've heard them laboring with

one another, now patient as a mother, now savage as a prize-fighter, now careful

in explanation, now pounding a heavy personal challenge, but always knowing the

desperate need and the sure answer.



Are we in the Church like that? Have you ever been drastically dealt with by

anybody? Have you ever dared to be drastic in love with anybody? We are so

official, so polite, and so ready to accept each other and ourselves at face

value. I went for years before ever I met a man that dared get at my real needs,

create a situation in which I could be honest with him, and hold me to a

specific Christian commitment and decision. One can find kindness and even good

advice in the Church. That is not all men need. They need to be helped to face

themselves as they really are. The AA people see themselves just as they are. I

think many of us in the Church see ourselves as we should like to appear to

others, not as we are before God. We need drastic personal dealing and

challenge. Who is ready and trained to give it to us? How many of us have ever

taken a 'fearless moral inventory' of ourselves, and dared make the depth of our

need known to any other human being? This gets at the pride which is the

hindrance and sticking-point for so many of us, and which, for most of us in the

Church, has never even been recognized, let alone faced or dealt with.



The fourth thing the Church needs to learn from A. A. is the necessity for a

real change of heart, a true conversion. As we come Sunday after Sunday, year

after year, we are supposed to be in a process of transformation. Are we? The

AA's are. At each meeting there are people seeking and in conscious need.

Everybody pulling for the people who speak, and looking for more insight and

help. They are pushed by their need. They are pulled by the inspiration of

others who are growing. They are a society of the "before and after" with a

clear line between the old life and the new. This is not the difference between

sinfulness and perfection; it is the difference between accepted wrongdoing and

the genuine beginning of a new way of life.



How about us? Again I quote Jerome Ellison, in his report to God (page 205):

"... I began to see that many of the parishioners did not really want to find

You, because finding You would change them from their habitual ways, and they

did not endure the pain of change . . . For our churchman-like crimes of bland,

impenetrable pose, I offer shame..." I suppose that the sheer visibility of the

alcoholic problem creates a kind of enforced, honesty; but surely if we are

exposed again and again to God, to Christ, to the Cross, there should be a

breaking down of our pride and unwillingness to change. We should know by now

that this unwillingness multiplied by thousands and tens of thousands, is what

is the matter with the Church, and what keeps it from being what God means it to

be on earth. The change must begin somewhere. We know it ought to begin in us.



One of the greatest things the Church should learn from AA is the need people

have for an exposure to living Christian experience. In thousands of places,

alcoholics (and others) can go and hear recovered alcoholics speak about their

experiences and watch the process of new life and take place before their eyes.

There you have it, the need and the answer to the need, right before your eyes.

They say that their public relations are based, not on promotion, but on

attraction. This attraction begins when you see people with problems like your

own, hear them speaking freely of the answers they are finding, and realize that

such honesty and such change is exactly what you need yourself. No ordinary

service of worship in the Church can possibly do this. We need to supplement

what we do now by the establishment of informal companies where people who are

spiritually seeking can see how faith takes hold in other lives, how the

characteristically Christian experience comes to them. Some churches are doing

this, but not nearly enough of them. One I know, where on Sunday evenings laymen

and women speak simply about what has happened to them spiritually: it is

drawing many more by attraction. This needs to be multiplied by the tens of

thousands, and the Church itself awakened.



As I looked out over that crowd of five thousand in Kiel Auditorium in St.

Louis, I said to myself, "Would that the Church were like this -- ordinary men

and women with great need who have found a great Answer, and do not hesitate to

make it known wherever they can -- a trained army of enthusiastic, humble, human

workers whose efforts make life a different thing for other people!" Let us ask

God to forgive our blindness and laziness and complacency, and through these

re-made people to learn our need for honesty, for conversion, for

fellowship and for honest witness!



______________________________________

Original message from: Laurie Andrews

jennylaurie1@hotmail.com > (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Sent: Saturday, April 7, 2012

Subject: Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more

like AA



Alan Wilson, bishop of Buckingham, quoted in the Guardian newspaper (7 April

2012):



"Locally, the Church of England is often good news. Individual clergy and

Christians are often liked and respected on the streets. The figure of Jesus

remains broadly attractive, even intriguing and sometimes compelling. But the

national institution appears disconnected from all this, remote, hierarchical,

fixated on its own stuff. The church of the future may be less a civil service

or conventional business, and more a movement like Alcoholics Anonymous, the

ultimate locally delivered, life-changing non-profit organisation. The job of

the hierarchy will be to enable this, not to represent it or control it."


0 -1 0 0
8371 dave landuyt dave landuyt Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred 4/13/2012 7:27:00 PM


Mr. Barton, I totally misread your AAHL, and assumed you were referring to

writings by Merton that I had not read. I didn't think "Black Sheep" was

available. If I am in error, can you fill me in?



Dave Landuyt


0 -1 0 0
8372 rickcard47 rickcard47 Black Sheep Black Sheep 4/15/2012 11:31:00 AM


I see black sheep is discussed all through AAHL. What is black sheep?

I did a search and never found a answer.



- - - -



FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:



Some definitions of the phrase "black sheep" in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sheep

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/black+sheep.html

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/black+sheep



Merton M. used this phrase as the title of a book he was writing about Hank

Parkhurst, because although Hank was one of the first people to get sober in AA,

and was a major leader in convincing early AA people to write and publish the

Big Book, he ended up "going bad" (i.e., turning into the "black sheep" of the

family), getting drunk, beating his wife, etc., and eventually dying drunk:



For references to Merton's book, see for example:



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2567



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2572



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2896



Merton's book was about how AA got started in New Jersey, and the role which

Hank Parkhurst played in that. Unfortunately, he never finished the book, and it

never got published (although I know that Hindsfoot said they would be glad to

publish it for him).



For more on Hank Parkhurst's life, see his story "The Unbeliever" in the 1st

edit. of the Big Book, and websites where they give biographies of the famous

early AA members, for example:



http://silkworth.net/aabiography/storyauthors.html



http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm


0 -1 0 0
8373 planternva2000 planternva2000 Irma Livoni Irma Livoni 4/15/2012 9:10:00 AM


Can anyone tell me what Mrs. Livoni's "crime" was that got her kicked out of AA?

The internet is loaded with copies of the letter sent to her by the committee

but nothing about the reason.

Thanks


0 -1 0 0
8374 royslev royslev Pre-A.A. origins of phrase *design for living* Pre-A.A. origins of phrase *design for living* 4/14/2012 9:43:00 PM


"DESIGN FOR LIVING" -- I went on Oxford Dictionaries online, and I also did a

google search, but I haven't yet come up with the definitive history of a phrase

Bill W. uses in our Big Book "design for living" that works etc. I did a thread

search here on our historylover group and there was mention of the phrase, its

usage and meaning and practice, but not the originator or first pre-eminent use

of it.



Since Bill puts the phrase inside quotation marks, that implied to me that he

was quoting from a commonly used phrase which may have had other sources.



I totally agree with Bill's idea, I was just curious about who first used this

phrase? Was it borrowed from Oxford Group, James Club, or other Christian

movement practice?



A friend suggest to me that the phrase had its origins with Ernest Shurtleff

Holmes (January 21, 1887 – April 7, 1960) who was an American writer and

spiritual teacher. He was the founder of a Spiritual movement known as Religious

Science, a part of the greater New Thought movement, whose spiritual philosophy

is known as "The Science of Mind."



Dick B. mentions it in passing in his Oxford Group origins "position paper" on

Silkworth.net but doesn't cite the first person or group to use this phase.



Is anyone familiar with the origins of this phrase "a design for living?" I

don't think I'll have time to read Holmes' books to search for it, but if

there's anywhere where someone might have already read these works or looked for

the origins of this phrase, it's probably this bulletin board, which is why I'm

a member.



Grateful for all feedback and leads or info.



You can email me at my home email:

royslev@verizon.net > (royslev at verizon.net)



or at royslev@yahoo.com > (royslev at yahoo.com)



Thanks



Roy L. "a miracle of mental health" class of '78


0 -1 0 0
8375 jax760 jax760 Re: Black Sheep Black Sheep 4/15/2012 6:44:00 PM


For those who may be interested, a bio of Hank P can be found at the link

below.



God Bless



http://www.bbsgsonj.com/apps/documents/categories/show/90902


0 -1 0 0
8376 B B Grave found: Harry Zollars, A Close Shave, 1st ed Grave found: Harry Zollars, A Close Shave, 1st ed 4/16/2012 9:27:00 AM


As a continued project of locating final resting places of our pioneers and

other influential people to our program and fellowship, I have located the grave

of Harry D. Zollars, #27 on the "they counted noses" list of Oct 1937, and

sobered March 1937. His story "A Close Shave" appears in the 1st ed of the Big

Book.



His grave is located in Crown Hill Cemetery, Orrville OH. Sec J, Lot 317, SW

1/4, Grave H. I have a map if anyone would like a copy of it.



Blessings,



Brian


0 -1 0 0
8377 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Pre-A.A. origins of phrase *design for living* Pre-A.A. origins of phrase *design for living* 4/15/2012 3:19:00 PM


Noel Coward wrote a play in 1933 called "Design for Living".



- - - -



FROM GLENN C.



The Wikipedia article about this play is worth looking at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_for_Living



The article makes it clear that the play was not only well known, but quite

notorious because of the way the characters attempted to live totally immoral

lives and in the process collided with one another continually. Many people were

offended by the play's immorality, in England even more than in the U.S.



If we look at the Big Book on page 28, the whole sentence reads:



'A new life has been given us or, if you prefer, "a design for living" that

really works.'



I think that GC Bailey is right, that one could certainly argue that the Big

Book put the phrase design for living in quotation marks to indicate that they

were referring to the title of the play, and for that reason immediately added

the words "that really works," to indicate that the way of life described in the

Big Book (as opposed to the way of life illustrated in the Noel Coward play)

actually produced satisfying results.



Note also that the play previewed in Cleveland in 1933, three weeks before it

opened in New York, and that it had already been turned into a Hollywood movie

(starring Gary Cooper and other big names) before the end of 1933, so references

to the title of the play were intelligible all over the English-speaking world.



At any rate, here are the relevant parts of the wikipedia article (and a summary

of the movie version) for those who would like to consider this possibility:



===========================================

THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_for_Living



Design for Living is a comedy play written by Noël Coward in 1932. It concerns a

trio of artistic characters, Gilda, Otto and Leo, and their complicated

three-way relationship. Originally written to star Lynn Fontanne, Alfred Lunt

and Coward, it was premiered on Broadway, partly because its risqué subject

matter was thought unacceptable to the official censor in London. It was not

until 1939 that a London production was presented.



Design for Living was a success on Broadway in 1933, but it has been revived

less often than Coward's other major comedies. Coward said, "it was liked and

disliked, and hated and admired, but never, I think, sufficiently loved by any

but its three leading actors."[1] The play was adapted into a film in 1933,

directed by Ernst Lubitsch, with a screenplay by Ben Hecht, and starring Fredric

March, Gary Cooper, and Miriam Hopkins.



Of the three principal characters, Coward later commented, "These glib,

over-articulate and amoral creatures force their lives into fantastic shapes and

problems because they cannot help themselves. Impelled chiefly by the impact of

their personalities each upon the other, they are like moths in a pool of light,

unable to tolerate the lonely outer darkness but equally unable to share the

light without colliding constantly and bruising each other's wings."



Design for Living previewed in Cleveland, Ohio on 2 January 1933 and opened in

New York on 24 January, at the Ethel Barrymore Theatre on Broadway to popular

and critical acclaim.



For the opening night, the price of tickets more than quintupled, and the three

stars were reported to be receiving record salaries for a Broadway production

.... Design for Living was such a success that Coward was prevailed upon to

relax his usual rule against appearing in any production for more than three

months, and he allowed the play to run for a total of five months. So great were

the crowds of fans in the street that special police had to be called in during

the last week of the run.

===========================================



===========================================

THE MOVIE VERSION:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023940/



Design for Living (1933)

A woman can't decide between two men who love her, and the trio agree to try

living together in a platonic friendly relationship.

Director: Ernst Lubitsch

Fredric March

Gary Cooper

Miriam Hopkins



Storyline

Two Americans sharing a flat in Paris, playwright Tom Chambers and painter

George Curtis, fall for free-spirited Gilda Farrell. When she can't make up her

mind which one of them she prefers, she proposes a "gentleman's agreement": She

will move in with them as a friend and critic of their work, but they will never

have sex. But when Tom goes to London to supervise a production of one of his

plays, leaving Gilda alone with George, how long will their gentleman's

agreement last?

===========================================



===========================================

VIC KITCHEN, I WAS A PAGAN:

And please note the next AAHistoryLovers message, which finds the same phrase

being used in Vic Kitchen's "I Was a Pagan" in the same way: put in quotation

marks, and with a qualifying phrase indicating that the only design for living

that actually worked in real life, was the one which God had designed -- 'God's

real "design for

living."'

===========================================


0 -1 0 0
8378 MichaelD MichaelD Re: Pre-A.A. origins of phrase *design for living* Pre-A.A. origins of phrase *design for living* 4/16/2012 10:54:00 PM


Not sure of its origin, but here is an early use from the Oxford Group:



Vic Kitchen's wrote "I Was a Pagan" in 1934 ... and uses the phrase twice in the

book. Vic Kitchen was in the same New York City Oxford Group as Bill Wilson,

was in the same age range, and according to Nell Wing, Vic and Bill Wilson were

close friends. Design for Living is used in two contexts in the book.



CHAPTER XVI



THIS BUSINESS OF

BEING OF USE TO PEOPLE



As I grew, however, I began to find the reality of religion. And as I found that

I not only could be born in Christ but could grow in Him day by day and hour by

hour, I saw that this reality provided an "escape" of an altogether different

nature. It was an escape, not from life, but from death. It was an escape, not

from the reality of life, but from the ugliness, delusion, and sin of life — an

escape from the unrealities of life and a finding of the underlying beauty,

truth and goodness which go to make God's real "design for living."



http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?319-I-was-a-Pagan


0 -1 0 0
8379 Michael Gwirtz Michael Gwirtz Alcoholism and the military Alcoholism and the military 4/16/2012 8:46:00 PM


I found this article today and it relates to recent posting about the armed

forces and the military. It is graphic but it certainly explains the disease of

alcoholism and its effect on the military. I found it a stimulating, informative

article. It was featured in today's 4/16/2012 "Early Brief" from

newsltr@militnews.com



==================================

"Prine's line: The Corps and Demon Alcohol "



So, there I was in Townsville, Australia, sniffling with the flu. That put a

damper on liberty but not on my libo buddy, a terminal lance corporal who took

advantage of my Nyquil sleep to phone a woman he had been dating and sneak her

into our suite.



This Sheila, a brunette of great beauty but dubious morality, gave my libo buddy

the clap. Several days later, I was standing at a rigid position of attention

before the First Sergeant, a three-ribbon martinet if there ever was one, who

wanted to fry me for failing to prevent this man from contracting a venereal

disease by properly deploying his mandatory liberty condom.



What I told him then was enough for the commanding officer -- there are many

things a fellow Marine owes a buddy, but placing upon him the proper prophylaxis

and ensuring that it remains affixed to his Devil Dog during its evening walk is

too much to ask of any man, especially when he's asleep.



*****



So there I was in the squadbay at K-Bay. Two grunts coming off liberty hated

each other and were drunk enough to make good on it. After both came to blows, I

jumped between them and broke it up and -- with the help of the firewatch – put

them to bed.



We then told the corporal of the guard of the incident and he duly logged the

idiocy in. The next morning I was standing inexplicably at the rigid position of

attention before high-and-tight three ribbons because, no joke, I had been

"involved" in an "alcohol related incident." He said that he and the Marine

Corps frowned on "ARIs" and that he was "going to send a message this time."



Asked what I had to say for myself, I demanded to be charged immediately so that

I could pursue trial by court-martial, telling the lifer that Marine prosecutors

would focus on his conduct in this affair, not mine, and that I likely would be

a witness at his trial.



I then requested mast to the company commander because I had not only done

nothing wrong but performed those duties that should be expected of any young

Marine: I protected others from harm and ensured that my chain of command had

been notified of the incident, most especially so that the PFC firewatch

wouldn't be blamed for the stupidity of more senior Marines punching each other.



The commanding officer thankfully agreed with my perspective, commending me for

breaking up the fight and glowering at the First Sergeant for pointlessly

dragging me into a disciplinary hearing.



Alas, I was a young Marine and had yet to learn that no good deed goes

unpunished when the aggressively stupid are promulgating chickensh** regulations

that have nothing to do with maintaining good order but instead are designed

merely to punish everyone lower in rank and make themselves look good in the

process.



In the future, however, it wasn't the CO's prudence but rather the First

Sergeant's spite that won out. No one would stop any spat or report anyone who

needed help with their drinking because they realized that within the maximum

effective range of an ARI every decent Marine became a casualty, even if they

were stone-cold sober and had done the right thing.



Better to keep quiet and out of trouble, letting the lifers drink themselves

into a stupor every Friday night at the SNCO Club, we thought.



*****



This goes to explain why during my time in the USMC active duty infantry, I

watched a grown man pee drunkenly into a broom closet he thought was the head,

just as surely as I once watched him pee on another man's head thinking it was

the broom closet.



I saw men awaken -- terrified -- in the middle of a morning PT run, so drunk on

Kinville mojo that they had no recollection of getting dressed or doing the

daily dozen an hour before.



On the sidewalks of three continents I found Marines so blotto that they

couldn't even crawl. I fireman-carried them to the gate and, with others, threw

them over -- not the easiest chore, I might add.



I stared amazed as naked officers brain-crazy from rainbows tried to shimmy up

the drain pipe to a whorehouse. Then there was my buddy who thought he saw

"Venusians" invading the base, which is why he sought shelter atop our roof,

right next to the Christmas tree built out of Bud cans that were topped with a

fifth of Jack, something of a down-on-his-luck angel.



Happy holidays from the Corps!



But please don't forget the fist fight in Tokyo caused when a gaggle of

Brazilian sumo wrestlers bumped into us on a dance floor. Or my normally

excellent squadleader who always had a bad reaction to Wild Turkey and twice

tried to crawl through a window to smack anyone on the other side who looked

funny at him.



What do all these things have in common? That's right. Liquor, and a culture of

over-consumption so pervasive that my platoon created a drinking game for

Jeopardy, with each right answer equaling a shot so that by the audio daily

double the smart guys were on the same level as the ASVAB waivers destined,

someday, to become First Sergeants.



I was the kind of guy who held my own with liquor and kept his cool -- largely

because I didn't binge drink -- and the Marine Corps was the kind of place where

bingeing not only was tolerated but was treated as something of a joke, a rite

of passage or, well, just a God-given right. And it all was pretty funny until a

senior NCO decided that there was an "ARI" he could make go away while

burnishing his own lifer fitreps -- which is to say by burning junior Marines

even if they really had nothing to do with any of it.



When I became a leader I rightly considered the lifers the enemy and my job

became to protect my Marines from them -- when I wasn't protecting them from

themselves. They helped me by watching out for each other when on the town,

calling me in the barracks if they needed help and otherwise remembering that we

always were a team first and that teams care about each other, even if the

lifers didn't give a damn about any of us.



"I'm not your fireteam leader," I told them before libo. "I'm your fireteam

friend. If you need help, call. I'll come get you."



*****



Yesterday, I was sent "Post Midnight Liberty Planning," a very odd document

prepared by U.S. Marine Corps Col. J. M. Jansen and promulgated for the Marine

Aircraft Group 11 at MCAS Miramar.



I've converted it from a pdf to a word doc and you can read it here.



According to Jansen, MAG 11 has been beset by a scourge of ARIs, beer-soaked

moments of indiscipline he terms "enemies," just as their confederates include

"peer pressure" and "fatigue." They've been particularly good at setting

ambushes in the bewitching hours between midnight and dawn.



In over-the-top language that borrows from the age-old METT-T planning matrix,

the good colonel describes the taverns frequented by Marines as a "threat

sector" and proposes a new "mission" that will safeguard his personnel from

"battle damage to ones' physical person and/or careers."



Because colonels are by nature bureaucrats who move papers from one end of their

desk to the other, Jansen has drawn up a METT-T Liberty Worksheet for the chain

of command to follow. It identifies those suspected "enemies," the Marines'

"troops and support" around to fight them, not to mention the "terrain and

weather" and "time" elements to be overcome during the liberty "mission," much

like a commander and his GIs must surmount the friction of battle.



To make it so, superiors in Miramar formally counsel any junior who plans on

staying out after midnight. Together they confect these worksheets and retain

them in a file that quickly shall grow to be the size of the Chicago Yellow

Pages -- at least if MAG 11 drinks like my former platoon did.



Some might think that I'm going to call out the skipper. I won't. He's obviously

trying to nip the number of ARIs, data he can see every morning when he arrives

for work, during an era when the Navy brass have such a boner for boozers that

they want to randomly test with a breathalyzer hundreds of thousands of Marines

and sailors when they report for duty.



I have no doubt that Col. Jensen cares deeply about his troops. He worries about

their safety and he likely over the decades has attended too many funerals of

Marines who died at the wheel. Or he had to enter the jailhouse in town to

spring a sailor who wrote a check with his lips his liver couldn't cash,

apologizing to the authorities for that shameful moment of misconduct.



Col. Jensen is watching booze claim more of his Marines than the Taliban and

he's trying to corral the problem the best way that he knows how.



I'll never second guess him because I don't rate to do so and I bet you don't,

too.



*****



My beef with my former Marines is that they're looking at the problem all wrong.

MAG 11 has declared war on "ARIs," but do they realize that ARIs are just

drunken canaries chirping in a booze-swamped coal mine?



Heavy alcohol use (five or more drinks per occasion at least once a week, four

if you're a woman) has exploded in all the services. About 15 percent of the

force in 1998 drank heavily; it rose to 20 percent in 2005 and 2008, according

to the Survey of Health Related Behaviors Among Active Duty Military Personnel

(or "HRB" ).



To put that into some perspective, that has returned the level of liquor

consumption to what service members used to put away in ye olden days of 1980,

when DoD first began the HRB survey.



But the Marine Corps has been the drunkest of the lot. Routine heavy drinking in

the Corps rose from 25 percent of its members in 2005 to 29 percent three years

later.



To put that into some perspective, the next highest gain was recorded by the Air

Force,from 10 percent to 14 percent. Flyboys, the Marines drink you under the

table. And they'll drink the table if it's higher than 80 proof and mixes well

enough with scotch.



We know from the surveys across all the services that E1s to E3s binge only

slightly more than their NCOs E-4 to E-6, leaders who drink hard and fast about

40 percent more often than their more senior non-commissioned officers. Warrant

officers binge more than junior commissioned officers, and those who guzzle the

least are like Col. Jansen -- officers between O-4 to O-10.



We know from the studies that if you want to draw the poster child for DoD

drunkenness, it would be a young, unmarried enlisted man between the ranks of

private and staff sergeant, usually with a high school degree or less, and he's

wearing the Eagle, Globe and Anchor.



Extrapolating from Army studies, we likely could say that the drinking is worse

amongst infantrymen like I used to be and "craftsworkers" in the shops,

especially if they're young, single and white, like those in Miramar.



The problem, researchers found, wasn't so much that these guys were prone to

drinking. Rather, they're given to all sorts of risk-taking, including speeding,

smoking and driving without wearing seat belts.



While heavily supervised, infantry toil even during peacetime is very stressful

and those who are inherently drawn to it are young, male daredevils, the same

sort of people who drink, fight and carouse when they're blowing off steam. I

suspect this sort of conduct is quite similar to the Marines in the Wing who,

although never grunts, still face a great deal of occupational stress and are

from the sort of demographic that veers toward taking stupid risks, often with a

drink in their mitts and a cigarette dangling from their lips.



The Marine Corps has studied this issue and suggested the "work hard, play hard"

culture of aviators is perhaps to blame. One might as well mention at this

moment that my beautiful Corps was born in a tavern, too, which might suggest

something.



To be fair to the Corps, the tavern was in Philadelphia and there's not much

else to do there.



*****



It's very easy for commanders to point to ARIs. They're tabulated and presented

to the commander in any chart he desires. They fit easily onto PowerPoint slides

and junior officers are eager to color them to any colonel's preference.



Navy Achievement Medals have been issued for lesser accomplishments, and I bet

someone at the Pentagon can show you a pretty PowerPoint slide to prove it.



While the charts wouldn't covert to a document I could load here, I can tell you

that MAG 11 notched what appears to be 74 alcohol-related incidents last year,

of which 33 involved driving. It's been some time since I checked, but I

estimate the size of MAG 11 at about 3,400 Marines and sailors or thereabouts at

any given time.



So that's about one ARI per 45 Marines and sailors, with a drunk-driving

incident for every 103 personnel. That's actually pretty similar to the rate of

DUI arrests in California -- one out of every 105 licensed motorists, although

San Diego is notorious for cracking down on drunk drivers.



Of those ARIs in Miramar, 54 transpired between midnight and 0600. Or slightly

more than one per week last year.



So to prevent one ARI per week, 3,400 adults will need to divulge often quite

private details to their chain of command and fill out what I bet would be about

1,000 pages or more of paperwork every Friday and spend perhaps half as many man

hours counseling Marines and sailors.



All to prevent one ARI amongst a population of over-stressed risk takers who

haven't responded to other forms of suasion already.



*****



Now, some shall say that if one life can be saved, one career preserved, one

suicide prevented or one wife protected from abuse then it's all worth it.



Others might say that this is just another example of chickensh** regulations

that are merely decorative and do nothing to tackle the more serious problems

dogging the Corps. In the balance between preventing an ARI and burdening

sections with even more forms and wasted hours, they'll say that it's weighted

too far toward intrusive paperwork.



But I won't tell you which one is right because frankly I don't know. What I

suspect, however, is that they're doing this because it's easy. Or, I should put

it, easier than getting to the heart of two other crises:



1. The bureaucratization of every element of military life, to the point that

even what a man and his wife do on the weekends is duly recorded, placed in a

permanent file and preserved in case UCMJ action is necessary. And,



2. The larger public health problem caused by the Marine Corps' culture of "work

hard, play hard" boozing. Just as it's easy to record ARIs and suicides, it's

quite difficult to detect and treat mental illness, and they're not really doing

that well in the Corps or anywhere else in the military anyway.



Why do line commanders notice the fat bodies in their ranks and pounce on them

as a health concern but do nothing about tobacco use? Because they can spot the

chubby in his Service A uniform but they can't get a squint at his lungs, that's

why.



Remember the Air Force, that other service that's drinking a lot more? It

annually records about 5,300 alcohol-related incidents as second -- and

third-order consequences of the boozing. But not all ARIs are the same. A third

of all Air Force suicides involve liquor, as do a quarter of their domestic

abuse cases.



Air Force surveys also have found that many of those who drink heavily do so to

self-medicate. They increasingly display symptoms of acute stress disorder,

depression and other ailments tied to returning from a deployment. Larger

numbers of airmen also have experienced combat in recent years because they're

filling roles overseas once reserved for ground pounders.



This drinking often comes to mask more serious underlying problems such as major

depression or bipolar disorder. We also know from studies over the past decade

that the more deployments -- and the more combat -- personnel have seen, the

more likely they are to drink and abuse drugs.



Now I'm not saying that ARIs aren't important, especially because so many

involve drunk driving. They're also embarrassing to a Marine Corps that rightly

prides itself on discipline and wants to keep the troops safe.



What I'm suggesting is that the Corps possibly could get more out the exercise

by forgetting the blotter reports and cutting to the core of why so many young

men and women are drinking more and more often -- it's because of the mental and

marital problems bedeviling the Devil Dogs 11 years into a long war, the same

underlying issues that were identified in the Air Force research.



What if MAG 11 were to spend just as many pages and counseling hours finding out

why nearly one out of every 10 married female Marines will get divorced this

year, three times the national average? Maybe the chain of command would realize

that they could do something to help her and her husband sort it out before the

couple drank to forget it all.



Or what if commanders sussed out why one out of every three male Marines who

reported PTSD in theater didn't get the help they needed in recent years? They

might find that the heavy drinking masks the deeper wound, right?



They'll have to overcome the 50 percent of Marines who think that they'll be

perceived as weak by their chain of command and peers -- ruining their careers

-- if they admit to having mental health problems. I guess it's just easier to

say that you're staying late at Hooters with the guys while promising that

you'll take a cab back.



Maybe a commander staying late at work, scrutinizing all those thousands of

METT-T oplans targeting the "enemies" out in town , will start to ask how many

reams of paper it takes before even one liberty form becomes the basis for

getting Marines the substance abuse treatment that they need on base? Even if

that care cuts into the availability of Marines for deployment and training?



I suspect not very many because it's been the trend to forgo the help, perhaps

because one out of five service-members will tell researchers that a commander

discourages him from getting it.



What about the fact that a third of the other-than-honorable discharges coming

from the Corps in recent years involved Marines who previously received mental

health illness diagnoses? How many of them got treatment before the Marines cut

them loose?



Or that one out of every 20 Marines is so profoundly unhappy that he'll think

about killing himself this year?



That's about twice the rate of those Marines who will be tagged for ARIs this

year at Miramar. Where are the forms for the suicidal? Who is going to reach out

for them?



If MAG 11 wants the chain of command to start to own the Corps' drinking problem

by using METT-T to identify substance abuse and link young men and women to the

help that they need, then I'll clap louder than anyone while praising their

efforts.



If it's just to clear a couple of blotter entries every month, however, I've got

to wonder what the point of all this is, except to create a CYA paper trail that

will indict junior Marines for the very sort of behavior others in the chain are

doing.



All I know is that I never met one decent fireteam leader who wasn't also a

fireteam friend.



And maybe my Corps needs to learn that valuable lesson before they start filling

out another stack of paperwork or discharging a drunk who probably could've

averted the OTH and been a pretty good Marine if someone had just gotten him the

help that he needed first before handing him cab fare.



I'll drink to that."

==================================





Your's in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, Pa. USA


0 -1 0 0
8380 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 4/16/2012 12:16:00 AM


Mel B celebrated 62 years of sobriety on 4/15/12.



His contributions to our group and to our fellowship cannot be overestimated. It

seems appropriate that something be posted here.



- - - -



See AAHL message #1629:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1629



An email which Mel Barger sent to Nancy Olson on Jan. 30, 2004: "I haven't had a

drink since I fully accepted the program on April 15, 1950."



- - - -



Also see AAHL message #6431

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6431



Mel B. and Tom D. 60 years sobriety dinner! Mel B. (Toledo, Ohio) and Tom D.

(Lima, Ohio) will be present to answer questions .... at the

"Gratitude for our Sobriety" dinner in Wapakoneta, Ohio



Both men obtained the gift of sobriety in April 1950, and have 60 years of

sobriety each.


0 -1 0 0
8381 jax760 jax760 Re: Grave found: Harry Zollars, A Close Shave, 1st ed Grave found: Harry Zollars, A Close Shave, 1st ed 4/17/2012 1:13:00 PM


Thank you Brian,



Many AA history websites have wrong info about Harry, even the Akron Archives

website. See below for important historical information that details who Harry

was and who he is confused with.



Harry Zollars: "A CLOSE SHAVE" – 1st Edition page 348.



Most web sites and historians have connected Harry Zollars, the Orrville barber,

with Henry J. Zoeller a Class "B" Trustee who served in the mid 1950s. See but

one example:



http://akronaaarchives.org/history/20henryJ_story.htm



This is in fact an error.



Harry D. Zollars b. 1890 d. December 10, 1960 Orrville, Ohio



Harry D. Zollars, whose birth year matches our friend Harry's in the Big Book,

was from Orrville, Ohio (just outside of Akron). He is listed on the First 226

Members Akron, OH AA Group:



http://www.hindsfoot.org/akrn226.doc



with an Orrville address (Orville [sic] Barber Shop) although the spelling of

his name on this list (as well as the names of several others) is incorrect.



Source Info, 1920 United States Federal Census



God Bless,



John B.





--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , "B" wrote:

>

> As a continued project of locating final resting places of our pioneers and

other influential people to our program and fellowship, I have located the grave

of Harry D. Zollars, #27 on the "they counted noses" list of Oct 1937, and

sobered March 1937. His story "A Close Shave" appears in the 1st ed of the Big

Book.

>

> His grave is located in Crown Hill Cemetery, Orrville OH. Sec J, Lot 317, SW

1/4, Grave H. I have a map if anyone would like a copy of it.

>

> Blessings,

>

> Brian


0 -1 0 0
8382 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 4/17/2012 2:33:00 PM


From Baileygc, jax760, John Kenney, CBBB164, and Glenn C.



- - - -



From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



For some strange reason, Mel seems reasonably sane. (If you cannot post this,

please forward).



[From Glenn C., the moderator: Mel will love that! Probably the highest praise

that only a handful of near saints in the program will ever receive]



- - - -



From: "jax760" jax760@yahoo.com > (jax760 at yahoo.com)



Happy Birthday Mel!



- - - -



From: JOHN KENNEY jfk92452000@yahoo.com >

(jfk92452000 at yahoo.com)



Please wish Mel and Tom a heart felt happy birthday from all of us in Virginia!



- - - -



From: CBBB164@AOL.COM (CBBB164 at AOL.COM)



Thanks, Mel for your dedication to our cause and the example you have

demonstrated. Cliff



- - - -



From: Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

glennccc@sbcglobal.net (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)



I think it's O.K. to bend the rules just a little bit here, and post some

information about Mel, for members of the AAHistoryLovers who do not know who he

is. When it comes time to write a history of AA that extends the story past

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, there will have to be a section on Mel B., as

one of the truly wise and admirable AA leaders and authors of the movement's

"second generation."



You can find material about him on the web:



http://www.facebook.com/mel.barger1



http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mel-Bargers-Writings/111482742211343?sk=photos



http://walkindryplaces.com/



If you want to listen to one Mel's leads, where he talks about his life and

experiences, contact Blueprint Tapes and ask for a cd of Mel B. from Toledo,

Ohio, speaking at the Michiana Conference in South Bend on September 15, 2007:



Blueprint Tapes

960 Morgan St., Clinton, Indiana 47842

email: BlueprintTapes@aol.com

phone: 765-832-9971



And I am sure that there are other leads he has given which are available from

other organizations which record AA speakers, because he has spoken quite a bit

over the years.



BOOKS HE HAS AUTHORED:



Mel B. was the principal author of the Pass It On, the conference-published

biography of Bill W. (1984)



Mel B., Walk in Dry Places (1996)



Mel B. & Bill P., The 7 Key Principles of Successful Recovery (1999)



Mel B., New Wine: The Spiritual roots of the Twelve Step Miracle (1991) -- Nell

Wing, Bill W.’s longtime secretary, explained that Mel’s long friendships with

Bill W. and AA enabled him to discuss meaningfully AA’s early history and Bill’s

special qualities of leadership and guidance. New Wine reviews the movements

and spiritual ideas that led to AA’s founding and growth, with special emphasis

on Carl Jung, Frank Buchman, Sam Shoemaker and religious leaders Harry Emerson

Fosdick, Father Edward Dowling and Emmet Fox.



Mel B., My Search for Bill W. (2000)



Mel B., Ebby The Man Who sponsored Bill W. (1998)



Mel B., 101 Meeting Starters: A Guide to Better Twelve Step Discussions (2007)



Mel B., Three Recovery Classics: As a Man Thinketh (by James Allen), The

Greatest Thing in the World (by Henry Drummond), An Instrument of Peace (the St.

Francis Prayer) (2004)



PLUS A HUGE NUMBER OF ARTICLES IN THE GRAPEVINE WHICH WERE WRITTEN OVER THE

YEARS.


0 -1 0 0
8383 Laurie Andrews Laurie Andrews Re: Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 4/21/2012 5:43:00 AM


I met Mel at GSO NY in 2006 when he spoke at the staff's weekly AA meeting. At

the time, I was editor of 'Share' magazine, the British equivalent of

'Grapevine', and I invited Mel to contribute an occasional Letter from America

for British readers. This is the Letter he wrote for the August 2006 issue.



THE STAYING POWER OF AA



The passing of Chauncey C., of Pontiac, Michigan, reminded me that AA recoveries

can have 'staying power' when an individual is sincerely committed to the goal

of maintaining sobriety and continues to follow the program and practice the

principles.



Chauncey was such a person and had 64 years' continuous sobriety when he passed

away on 11 May, 2006, at age 95. The notice in the local newspaper said that he

was recognised as the longest living active member of AA. That was also

acknowledged last year at AA's International Convention in Toronto, where he

arrived in a wheelchair but still displayed the energy and enthusiasm that had

been evident throughout his AA experience.



I marvel at the way our own paths crossed in 1950 and '51 and again in 2005 and

'06. At the earliest time, in 1950, I had moved to Pontiac from my native

Nebraska, where I had finally found sobriety during seven weeks as a patient in

a state mental hospital. I was 25, but John Barleycorn had battered me so

ferociously that I was able to surrender my problem to God and AA. I found my

staying power and have been sober for more than 56 years.



Somebody told me that there was a good meeting at Pontiac's All Saints'

Episcopal Church, and that's where I met Chauncey in 1950. With nine years'

sobriety, he was one of the old-timers in that day of AA's youth. I was awed by

this example and wondered if I would want to continue attending AA meetings that

long. And would one feel that he 'had it made' after so much time in the

program!



I moved to another city and saw Chauncey only once or twice in the next 50

years. But I always heard reports that he was still active in the program and

still working with newcomers. As I began to write for 'Grapevine', I often

thought I should drive up to Pontiac and interview him. But I was always too

busy, something I regret today.



The opportunity did come some months ago when a man in New York who is

developing an AA documentary movie asked me to help him get in touch with

Chauncey. We drove to Pontiac and interviewed Chauncey. Though he was ailing by

this time, he gave us a colorful account of the events that brought him into the

program in 1941 and how it worked for him over the years. It's a story that

should become part of AA history.



I saw Chauncey one more time. Amazingly, it was at a meeting at the All Saints'

Episcopal Church in Pontiac, where I had first met him in 1950. We reminisced

about the old days and the wonderful friends we'd had who are now in the Big

Meeting in the Sky. We were both grateful for those wonderful way-showers and

path-finders.



Chauncey has now joined them, and I praise the staying power he demonstrated

over the years.



MEL B., Toledo, Ohio


0 -1 0 0
8384 cherieanne40 cherieanne40 Chauncey C. and Mel B. -- speaking in Michigan in 2005 Chauncey C. and Mel B. -- speaking in Michigan in 2005 4/22/2012 8:35:00 AM


Chauncey carried the message right up to the end. I recall seeing Chauncey at

the 2005 International Convention, but I really met him the first time at the

Gratitude Meeting in November 2005 ( I think it was the 63rd annual Gratitude

meeting which Chauncey helped to start in the Detroit area) just months before

his death. He was one of the speakers and although he did not speak long, his

message was still powerful. He talked of his wife and children and his love for

AA and how AA was when he came into the program so many years ago and how

without AA he would not be sober sitting there on that stage that day.



I feel very blessed to have met this AA Pioneer and know I will meet him again

one day at the Big Meeting in Heaven.



I first met Mel B. many years ago when he came to my area to speak. I actually

first met Mel online and learned to know him via emails. I have seen him speak

in this area a few times now, the last was a few years ago when he spoke on a

panel with a few other people. After he spoke he sat down with his wife, a

lovely woman, and started nodding off. LOL Two photos with Mel B taken in Royal

Oak, MI sit on my shelf in my home office, one with Mel, myself and my first

sponsor Mary P., and one with Mel and Chief Blackhawk, another longtimer in the

Detroit area.



Another photo that sits on that shelf is Mary P and James Houck taken in 2003.



All of these people were so helpful to my own sobriety. When I read stories

about them here on AAHL I am reminded that AA DOES work!!!



Cherie' H.

Warren, MI


0 -1 0 0
8385 rriley9945@aol.com rriley9945@a... Re: Chauncey C. and Mel B. -- speaking in Michigan in 2005 Chauncey C. and Mel B. -- speaking in Michigan in 2005 4/22/2012 11:48:00 AM


At the 2005 International Convention, Chauncey was on a young people's panel

with a 16 year old--- if I remember her age correctly. I was able to talk with

him afterwards. He was a direct link with to Archie T. who started AA in

Detroit. One of the best memories I have of that convention.


0 -1 0 0
8386 the_wee_ladd the_wee_ladd AA World Library literature AA World Library literature 4/27/2012 2:57:00 AM


I have come across a booklet published by the AA World Library No. 122 Copyright

1970. The title is "Am I Drinking Too Much?" by Doyle F. Lindley and Robert T.

Dorris. I can not find it in the library archive, can someone familiar with this

literature assist me with its identification etc.



Respectfully


0 -1 0 0
8387 the_wee_ladd the_wee_ladd Re: Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 4/27/2012 9:57:00 AM


Mel B. If not for the Oldtimers we that came after would not be enriched with

the knowledge of a sober life. Congrats Mel on a job well done. We will meet you

in the fellowship of the Spirit.


0 -1 0 0
8388 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut AA and the Quakers in early British AA AA and the Quakers in early British AA 4/27/2012 10:05:00 PM


A new article on the close links between Alcoholics Anonymous and the Quakers in

early British AA:



Laurie Andrews, Liberal Quakerism and 12 step spirituality: realised

universalism? An article from Friends Quarterly (2012, No. 2). "In December 1948

the first five AA members in Manchester realised they would need a telephone

contact for enquirers. 'They approached the Friends Meeting House at Mount

Street. The Friends agreed to allow their telephone number to be used as a

contact, and meetings of the first Manchester AA group were begun at Mount

Street.'"

http://hindsfoot.org/quaker.pdf



It is included in the section on A.A. Historical Materials Part 2

http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html



In the section on EARLY BRITISH AA: In March 1947 American AA member Grace O.,

visiting London with her husband, the writer Fulton Oursler, convened a meeting

for eight people in her room at the Dorchester hotel in London, the first

recorded AA meeting in Britain, etc.


0 -1 0 0
8389 Bryan S. Reid Bryan S. Reid Re: AA and the Quakers in early British AA AA and the Quakers in early British AA 4/28/2012 1:22:00 PM


Thank you!



That's fascinating.



This is wandering a bit off topic, but once I figured out (not the sharpest

tool in the shed) that spirituality (relationship with a higher power) was

how I was going to stay sober, I jumped into it headfirst and have never

looked back. One of the earlier books I read was "A Quaker Book Of Wisdom:

Life Lessons In Simplicity, Service, And Common Sense" by Robert Lawrence

Smith. Its similarity to the program is uncanny. It is still one of my

favorite books and I reread it at least 2 times a year. I don't know how

many copies I've bought and given away.



It doesn't surprise me in the least that the Quakers would identify with

our program. It's like the Jesuits seeing the parallels between the Steps

and the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius.



Thanks again for these two links.


0 -1 0 0
8390 Masterman Masterman Memories of Sybil Corwin, from someone she sponsored Memories of Sybil Corwin, from someone she sponsored 4/28/2012 1:25:00 PM


Does anyone have a copy of a tape of Sybil Corwin

from January 14th, 1984 recorded in Riverside, Calif.

I had met Sybil Wed, Jan 11th, 1984 and offered to

drive her to a meeting on Sat Night, thought we

were going to Glendale Windsor Club where I met her

but she gave me a map to Riverside where she was

the speaker that night. I had no idea who she

was, as at the first meeting I heard her at,

she hadn't mentioned that she was coming

up on her 43rd AA birthday in March that year.



They made a tape of that night, and Sybil talked

about her friend who lived in Riverside, who had

just died, I think his name was Dick Greggory, and

he had a wife Alma Greggory I believe. If anyone

knows how I can get a copy of that tape (mine was

destroyed in hurricane katrina) I would be so grateful.



Sybil sort of appointed herself as my sponsor as I

guess she saw I was lost and needed her direction

and knowledge and basically because she was such a

kind and loving person. We just clicked and she

made me laugh and I felt like a sponge, soaking up

every word that she said . When she started

sponsoring me, when you got Sybil you also got Bob

sort of as sort of a bonus sponsor, and

they ended up co-sponsoring me as Sybil would

often say "You should speak to Bob about that,

he has more experience with that than I do"

She was very humble about the length of sobriety,

and used to say "the only reason I'm sober so long

is that I found AA before other people did".



I was so lucky to get to hear her speak for the

hour a day I'd spend driving her to whatever

meeting she was speaking at, then got to hear

her at the meeting, then listen to her at fellowship,

after the meeting, and then for the hour

car ride home each night, so I started

to know her story better than she did.



She got her first meeting date mixed up,

and used to say her AA Birthday was 3/23/1941,

but I looked up the Friday back in 1941

and it was actually March 21st, which I heard

her say in earlier tapes from the 70's.



She and Bob had a unique bit of knowledge

as Sybil came in before AA had it's 12 Traditions.

Bob came in, in 1948, and after

15 yrs of relapses of our disease, got sober

the last time in October of 1963 until his death

in May of 2008. 44 consecutive years sober.



His wealth of knowledge came not only from that,

but from 15 yrs of relapses, during which

he had

One year 5 times

Two years, 2 times

and

Three years, 1 time,

plus many shorter periods, broken up,

even though he was really trying.

So he knew more about what "NOT TO DO"

as he did "What to do"

in order to prevent relapses.



He was most open about all the mistakes he

had made, and what didn't work.

He said his relapses were like

"Coming to the back door of a Mansion

you had once owned and having to ask for a handout"



They were among the most kind,

most real, most honest, most selfless,

and loving people that I had ever met

in AA. Like Alabam Carothers, like Marie Stinner,

and like Jayne Grey, all, along with Bob and Sybil

watched over me, and would spend hours telling me

about what AA was like when they came into AA



I was very fortunate as I found out that they would

almost always say "Yes" when I asked them if I could

drive them to the next meeting that they were speaking

at. I used to love to drive them to meetings

or conventions, roundups, area get togethers,

where they would be the speaker or one of the speakers

for those events. I got them alone, for stories, for

questions had, etc for one hour driving to the meeting,

as well as listening to their talk, learned all sorts

of stuff then and afterwards at fellowship, and then again

for a private hour or so driving home. I could not

get "too full" of them. I was just loving every word I

heard, every story about AA that they had to tell.



Sybil always asked me to walk her to the bathroom

before she was speaking. After a few weeks of

driving her to meetings almost every night (Bob was

recovering from heart bypass surgery and Sybil had

cataracts and couldn't drive anymore) I went to

a convention that she was speaking at. Before she

was to speak she asked me to walk with her, and

there was an empty room and she went into it and

said "Matt I need to kneel down, will you help me,

please give me your hand" and she took my hand

and steadied herself on my arm. She was all of

105 lbs, and I was 6'3" and about 220 lbs. As she

knelt down she asked me to do the same next to her.

Still holding her hand she bowed her head down

and began speaking "Dear God, these wonderful people

spent a lot of their hard earned cash to fly me

here and pay for my hotel room, so when I speak,

please help me be useful to someone, and please

make me adequate, Amen" Then she asked me to help her

up. Here she was, 76 yrs old, and 43 yrs sober

and she's asking God to help her be "adequate".



She taught me to always say the same prayer before

I spoke at a meeting, or when I listen to a 4th step,

I always kneel down with my sponsee and ask God

to help the work we do together to be useful in

helping us to be more compassionate, more understanding,

more forgiving, more helpful, patient and loving to

all the people in our lives and to help us continue

to stay sober, and please God accept our thanks

and gratitude for our sobriety and helping us live

the AA way of life.



Sometimes people I sponsored would like to say, or

think of Bob and Sybil as their "grand-sponsors",

as was a common name for your sponsors sponsor.



I used to think that was silly, as if you think

about it, Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob are technically

everyone's sort of "great-great-great-etc-grandsponsor.



When I wasn't sure about something, or wanted to

have a sponsee hear something directly from Bob or

Sybil I would often call them and put them on

speakerphone so that they could hear a story or

lesson direct from Bob or Sybil, rather than hearing

it 2nd hand through me, and sometimes we would

all go with them to meetings as I bought a limo

that seated 9 people. It felt like a magical and

blessed time when we were together.



Sybil and Bob explained things in a way that I've

never heard from anyone else,, Like when they

told me about Irma Livoni and how she was the first

woman to be kicked out of A.A. in Los Angeles, in

1941, just before Pearl Harbor and World War II,

long before AA had the 12 traditions.



Here's the story of Irma Livoni and picture of Sybil

(at this link)



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-irma_livoni.html



Feel free to write me at pupmasters@yahoo.com

if you'd like any other information that I might

remember about Bob or Sybil Corwin.



Much AA love to you all,

Matt Masterman

now moved from Los Angeles and living in

Boynton Beach Florida


0 -1 0 0
8391 marathonmanric marathonmanric Bill W's feelings on alcoholics who don't go to meetings Bill W's feelings on alcoholics who don't go to meetings 4/28/2012 11:34:00 AM


Hello Group,



I recently heard a tape of a speaker who mentioned that Bill was either asked or

volunteered information as to his feelings on people that get sober in AA but

don't go to meetings. What I heard is that Bill said, in effect, that he has

little to do with them because they are not grateful.



Has anyone heard this statement and if so is it documented in print or tape?



Thank you for your consideration.



Ric


0 -1 0 0
8392 Wendi Turner Wendi Turner Re: AA World Library literature AA World Library literature 4/27/2012 11:40:00 AM


AA World Library? How can I find out more about this?



- - - -



On Apr 27, 2012, at 7:47 AM, the_wee_ladd thetwobarretts@eastlink.ca> wrote:



> I have come across a booklet published by the AA World Library No. 122

Copyright 1970. The title is "Am I Drinking Too Much?" by Doyle F. Lindley and

Robert T. Dorris. I can not find it in the library archive, can someone familiar

with this literature assist me with its identification etc.


0 -1 0 0
8393 MichaelD MichaelD Re: AA World Library literature AA World Library literature 4/28/2012 8:50:00 AM


"the_wee_ladd" wrote:

>

> I have come across a booklet published by the AA World Library No. 122

Copyright 1970. The title is "Am I Drinking Too Much?" by Doyle F. Lindley and

Robert T. Dorris. I can not find it in the library archive, can someone familiar

with this literature assist me with its identification etc.



____________________________________________



The book you search by ISBN, it does not appear to be published by the AA world

Library though.



ISBN 0915082020



http://www.worldcat.org/title/am-i-drinking-too-much/oclc/1959257



There's not much information on Doyle Lindley, but Robert Dorris was a well

known national figure in the treatment of alcoholism. He founded Dorris.com ,

and founded the California Association of Substance abuse counselors in 1967,

which went on to become The National Association of Addiction Counselors in

1974, of which Robert Dorris was the first President. Today it has 75,000

members and is the largest organization of its kind in the world.



http://www.naadac.org/



For thirty years, DORRIS helped organizations manage their most valuable assets

-- their employees. Our founder, Robert T. Dorris Sr., worked for 20 years in

alcoholism education and treatment prior to entering the field of occupational

alcoholism programming, the forerunner of today's employee assistance programs.



In 1970 he joined McDonnell-Douglas to develop their corporate employee

assistance program.In 1974, he founded DORRIS as one of the first external

providers of employee assistance services.


0 -1 0 0
8394 Ernie Kurtz Ernie Kurtz Re: More on Mark Whalon More on Mark Whalon 4/29/2012 4:00:00 PM


Les,



Many thanks for the inscribed and autographed copy of your Rogers Burnham book.

I acknowledge so slowly because I was in hospital and rehab since March 9th and

remain disabled though now at home since yesterday. You have given us a final

detailed piece of research.



ernie kurtz



On Mar 31, 2012, at 4:13 PM, LES COLE wrote:



> The US Census for 1910 shows the following:

>

> John M Whalon

> Age 23 Male White American

> Est Birth year 1887

> Birth location: Dorset, Bennington,VT

>

> Relation to Head: Son

> Head of household: William C.

>

> Other people in household:

> William Whalon: 56 Yrs, Male, Father

> Rose Whalon: 48 yrs, Female, Mother

> William Whalon: 27 yrs, Male, Sibling

> Mary Whalon: 18 yrs, Female

>

> Father's First Name: William C.

> Father's Last Name: Whalon

> Father's Birthplace: Vermont

> Mother's First Name: Rose K.

> Mother's Birthplace: Scotland

>

> Marital Status: Single

>

> Sheet: ASheet number: 12

> Collection: 1910 U.S. Federal Population Census


0 -1 0 0
8395 bobhickey674 bobhickey674 Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 4/30/2012 10:29:00 AM


I checked out your list and you seem to have missed Bill Ames of Virginia who

got sober in 1938



- - - -



> > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY

> > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron

> > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron

> > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron

> > 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ

> > 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron

> > 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron

> > 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD

> > 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT

> > 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron

> > 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron

> > 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron

> > 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY

> > 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland

> > 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland

> > 16 Harry Latta            Jul-36 Akron

> > 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron

> > 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron

> > 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron

> > 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron

> > 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ

> > 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ

> > 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron

> > 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron

> > 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland

> > 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron

> > 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron

> > 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron

> > 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron

> > 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland

> > 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland

> > 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron

> > 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron

> > 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ

> > 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron

> > 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron

> > 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ

> > 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron

> > 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron

> > 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron

> > 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron

> > 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ

> > 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron

> > 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron

> > 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron

> > 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron

> > 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY

> > 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron

> > 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron

> > 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron

> > 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron

> > 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron

> > 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron

> > 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron

> > 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron

> > 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron

> > 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron

> > 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron

> > 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron

> > 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY

> > 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland

> > 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland

> > 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY

> > 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY

> > 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT

> > 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY

> > 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY

> > 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron

> > 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY

> > 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY

> > 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY

> > 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ

> > 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA

> > 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY

> > 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI

> > 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY

> > 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron

> > 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron

> > 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland

> > 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland

> > 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY

> > 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland

> > 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron

> > 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron

> > 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ

> > 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron

> > 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ

> > 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ

> > 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY

> > 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ

> > 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA

> > 92 William Worton Feb39 NY

> > 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY

> > 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ

> > 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ

> > 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ

> > 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ

> > 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ

> > 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ

> > 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ

> >

> > Other Names - Shortly after April 1st

or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers  

> > Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard  

> > Brooke B Shep Cornell  

> > Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves  

> > Alec Johnson Ned Foote  

> > Gordon S. Russell Rathbone  

> > Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins  

> > Ernie Gerig Marty Mann  

> > John Reese Albert Golrick  

> > Harry Nash Grenville Curtis  

> > Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans  

> > Don McClean Oscar Vieths  

> > Rowland Jones Bill Cousins  

> > Sterling Parker Joe Mina  

> > Tom Pierce      Jackie Williams


0 -1 0 0
8396 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Winchester cathedral Winchester cathedral 4/30/2012 2:07:00 PM


AA pilgrimage sites outside the U.S.



The tombstone of the Hampshire Grenadier outside Winchester cathedral, I have

been told, is starting to turn into something like Dr. Bob and Anne Smith's

gravesite in Akron.



=======================================

Laurie Andrews in England reports

jennylaurie1@hotmail.com > (jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



"Winchester cathedral .... sells postcards of the Hampshire Grenadier tombstone

and during the annual convention at Winchester there is a pilgrimage to the

grave and people gather round it and recite the Serenity prayer."

=======================================



We all know the story -- Winchester cathedral in England was the site where the

young Bill W. had a moving experience of the sacred dimension of reality -- the

scene that appears on the opening page of Chapter One of the Big Book, and is

referred to again on both pages 10 and 12.



See the photographs of the magnificent interior of this beautiful medieval

building at the top of the page at

http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html

and at the top and middle of the page at

http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html



This is not a completely new practice among English AA's. When Nancy Olson, the

founder of the AAHistoryLovers, went to England to give a talk at Bristol a

number of years ago, I remember her telling me how the British AA people took

her to Winchester to visit the stone, and what an unforgettable impression it

made upon her. (There are a couple of photos of Nancy in Bristol at the bottom

of this webpage:

http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aapix02.html )



_________________________________________



I do have a question, just as a matter of curiosity: are there other places

outside the U.S., in Europe or elsewhere, where AA people are starting to make

visits, just to pay their respects, or to try to feel a little bit of what it

must have been like to have been at that spot back in the old days?



Sister Ignatia's birthplace, which was discovered after a lot of fine detective

work, by Irish AA historian Fiona D., from county Mayo, would be a beautiful

place to visit -- see Fiona's photographs at

http://hindsfoot.org/ignatia1.html

But I should imagine that getting to that isolated spot, even if you were

already in Ireland, could be fairly difficult.



_________________________________________



European AA people live in cultures where there are often a large number of

people who do not believe in a personal God, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism



The majority of people still believe in a personal God in some countries:

90% in Romania

80% in Poland

74% in Italy

73% in Ireland



But less than half the population are believers in many other countries:

47% in Germany

43% in Belgium

38% in the U.K.

34% in France and the Netherlands

32% in Norway

31% in Denmark

23% in Sweden

19% in the Czech Republic



But in the countries where most of the people no longer believe in God, there

are often a surprisingly large number of people who believe in some sort of

spirit or life force:

53% in Sweden

50% in the Czech Republic

49% in Denmark

47% in Norway

40% in the U.K.

37% in the Netherlands

29% in Belgium

27% in France

25% in Germany



_________________________________________



For this reason, it would probably be a good idea to point out that Mel Barger

asked Bill Wilson on more than one occasion, what happened in that memorable

spiritual experience he had in Towns Hospital, and Bill W. said that it was what

his era of history called "cosmic consciousness" or "cosmic religious feeling."

Bill referred Mel to the famous book by the Canadian psychiatrist Richard

Maurice Bucke, "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human

Mind."



ALBERT EINSTEIN



Modern Europeans who are atheists might find what Bill W. experienced at

Winchester cathedral more understandable by reading a piece written by the

famous German-Swiss physicist Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York

Times Magazine, 9 November 1930, 1-4. In the following paragraphs, I give a

brief outline of that article and a few excerpts. It may be read online at:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm



EINSTEIN ON COSMIC RELIGIOUS FEELING



1. The first stage in the development of religion was a fear-based religion:

primitive people attempted to secure the favor of imaginary personal beings,

called gods and goddesses or spirits, by performing actions and sacrifices

directed by a priestly caste.



2. The second stage was moral religion, seen in the Jewish scriptures and the

Christian New Testament: belief in a single personal God who is moral and

loving.



Both of these forms of religion believe in anthropomorphic gods and spirits,

that is, supernatural beings which are persons and think and act like human

beings.



3. The third stage is cosmic religious feeling. "It is very difficult to

elucidate this feeling," Einstein said, "as there is no anthropomorphic

conception of God corresponding to it."



"The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity

and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of

thought. Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he wants to

experience the universe as a single significant whole."



"The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of

religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so

that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is

precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with

this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their

contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light,

men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one

another."



In this modern age, where science has taught us how the universe actually works,

there can be no anthropomorphic, personal God at the focus of this feeling,

because such a being would be totally impossible. Praying to a God to rescue you

from this or that is silly, and there are no supernatural rewards and

punishments for good and evil. There is no heaven or hell. "The man who is

thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot

for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of

events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really

seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social

or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for

the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and

internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an

inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes."



Einstein, who was a highly ethical man, insisted that there had to be a totally

different kind of basis for moral behavior: "A man's ethical behavior should be

based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no

religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be

restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death."



What motivates the best scientists, Einstein insists, is their sense of awe and

wonder at the majestic sweep of the universe, from the smallest level to the

biggest: electrons, neutrons, and atoms, the tiny DNA chains that determine the

evolution of species, the electrochemical structures of the brain, stars and

galaxies, and all the way up to the structure of space-time itself:



"The cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific

research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the

devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved

are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work,

remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep

conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand,

were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and

Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in

disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics!"



_________________________________________



[The article has been reprinted in Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions, based

on Mein Weltbild, ed. by Carl Seelig and other sources, new translations and

revisions by Sonja Bargmann (New York, Crown Publishers, 1954), 36-40, and also

in Albert Einstein, The World as I See It (New York: Philosophical Library,

1949), 24-28.]



_________________________________________



EINSTEIN AND PAUL TILLICH



See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality, Chapter 11, "Tillich and Einstein"



Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr were the two most famous theologians at Union

Theological Seminary in New York City. In Tillich's counter article to

Einstein's piece, he agreed with Einstein that the idea of a personal God was an

outmoded myth. The real Higher Power was an impersonal absolute (which Tillich

called "the ground of being"). But Tillich argued that personalistic language

was very valuable in talking about our relationship to this Higher Power, as

long as we remembered that this image of a personal God watching out for us was

metaphorical and symbolic only. It was only a sign post pointing to a higher

reality, where that higher reality was a completely impersonal and indescribable

abyss of non-being, which could give us the gift of new being when our old lives

had collapsed into ruins, but which would swallow us up into non-being at the

end of our lives.



It is true that Father Samuel Moor Shoemaker III, rector of Calvary Episcopal

Church from 1928 to 1952, and the American leader of the Oxford Group during the

1930's (continuing until he broke with the Oxford Group in 1941), was a figure

known to everyone in the theological world of New York City.



But it was people like PAUL TILLICH, REINHOLD NIEBUHR, EMMET FOX, and HARRY

EMERSON FOSDICK who were more typical of the general theological spirit of the

city during the period when Alcoholics Anonymous was being formed.



I am not trying to talk here about what the Christians believed who originally

built Winchester cathedral in England back during the Middle Ages, nor about

what today's Anglican pastors preach and teach in their cathedrals and parishes

in the British Isles, but about what Bill Wilson felt when he walked into that

cathedral as a young soldier, and about how -- some fifteen years later in New

York City -- he interpreted what he had once felt there so long ago.



Winchester cathedral was the site of one of his earliest experiences of "cosmic

religious feeling," or as he would describe it in the Big Book, "catapulted into

what I like to call the fourth dimension of existence" (p. 8) or "rocketed into

a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed" (p. 25).



That is what Winchester symbolizes in the AA movement, and you don't have to

believe in a personal God to understand it. Just stand in the cathedral or at

the tomb of the Hampshire Grenadier and softly recite the Serenity Prayer, and

be thankful for what you feel while doing that, and where you've gotten in your

life, now you have put it on this new basis.


0 -1 0 0
8397 jax760 jax760 Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 4/30/2012 3:49:00 PM


Hi Bob,



So who is Bill Ames of Virginia and how did he get sober in 1938? Who from the

list of 89 pioneers (sober through 12/39) carried the message to him and in what

fashion is that documented?



Since I have never read of or heard of Bill Ames in any AA History before I

would love to hear more.



Thanks and God Bless



- - - -



"bobhickey674" wrote:



> I checked out your list and you seem to have missed Bill Ames of Virginia who

got sober in 1938


0 -1 0 0
8399 Paul Paul New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson 4/30/2012 10:06:00 PM


"Distilled Spirits: Getting High, then Sober, with a Famous Writer,

a Forgotten Philosopher and a Hopeless Drunk," by Don Lattin. University of

California Press, coming out in October 2012.



http://www.donlattin.com/pageds/dl_distilled_spirits.html



This book "blends a religion reporter's memoir with the compelling stories of

three men -- Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson -- whose work and

inspiring friendship transformed the landscape of Western religion and

spirituality in the twentieth century."



"Huxley, the prophetic English essayist and celebrated author of Brave New

World, ignited a restless generation that chased utopian dreams and sought

enlightenment through psychedelic drugs. Heard, an Anglo-Irish mystic, journeyed

to California with Huxley in the 1930s to lay the foundations for the New Age

and human potential movements. Wilson, the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous,

joined forces with Huxley and Heard in the 1940s and 1950s, when Wilson began a

series of little-known experiments to see if LSD could be used to help diehard

drunks discover a power greater than themselves."



"Their life stories are gracefully brought together by veteran journalist Don

Lattin, who reveals his own sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious misadventures

as a religion writer 'worshiping at the altar of drugs and alcohol.'"



Best,

Paul


0 -1 0 0
8400 Mike Barns Mike Barns Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 5/1/2012 9:38:00 AM


On May 1, 2012, at May 1, 2012 6:10 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com wrote:



> > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY

> > > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron

> > > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron

> > > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron



Re: Dr. Bob's sobriety date - although Bill and Bob got together in May 1935, it

was in June 1935 when Dr. Bob had his last drink.



Mike Barns


0 -1 0 0
8401 jax760 jax760 Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson 5/1/2012 8:37:00 AM


Thanks,



I look forward to reading this book.



I knew very little of Huxley (and his inner world) until I read one of his works

that came to me through AA. In the February 1946 Grapevine the book The

Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley was recommended in the monthly section

"The Pleasures of Reading" by one R.F.S. RFS was none othet than Royal Sheppard

from Glen Ridge, NJ and who has quite a history in AA in the mid to late 40s

(another story)



This book ia an amazing spiritual journey that seeks to unify the spirituality

(core beliefs) of all great religions.



All seekers of that which is Divine should have a look at this book. I found it

most heart-warming and uplifting. It is treasure trove of advice taken from the

greatest saints and mystics of all time



I'm sure Glenn could expand on the philosophy of the Perennial Philosophy.



God Bless



John



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , "Paul" wrote:

>

> "Distilled Spirits: Getting High, then Sober, with a Famous Writer,

> a Forgotten Philosopher and a Hopeless Drunk," by Don Lattin. University of

California Press, coming out in October 2012.

>

> http://www.donlattin.com/pageds/dl_distilled_spirits.html

>

> This book "blends a religion reporter's memoir with the compelling stories of

three men -- Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson -- whose work and

inspiring friendship transformed the landscape of Western religion and

spirituality in the twentieth century."

>

> "Huxley, the prophetic English essayist and celebrated author of Brave New

World, ignited a restless generation that chased utopian dreams and sought

enlightenment through psychedelic drugs. Heard, an Anglo-Irish mystic, journeyed

to California with Huxley in the 1930s to lay the foundations for the New Age

and human potential movements. Wilson, the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous,

joined forces with Huxley and Heard in the 1940s and 1950s, when Wilson began a

series of little-known experiments to see if LSD could be used to help diehard

drunks discover a power greater than themselves."

>

> "Their life stories are gracefully brought together by veteran journalist Don

Lattin, who reveals his own sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious misadventures

as a religion writer 'worshiping at the altar of drugs and alcohol.'"

>

> Best,

> Paul

>


0 -1 0 0
8402 jax760 jax760 Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 5/1/2012 12:52:00 PM


Mike,



You have to read the notes regarding the Amos List to understand why Bob is

listed in May. Follow the link above, the note is found on the second full page

of text (I think)



Regards



http://www.silkworth.net/pdf/Chapter_IV-We_Began_to-Count_Noses.pdf









--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com , Mike Barns wrote:

>

> On May 1, 2012, at May 1, 2012 6:10 AM, AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

wrote:

>

> > > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY

> > > > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron

> > > > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron

> > > > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron

>

> Re: Dr. Bob's sobriety date - although Bill and Bob got together in May 1935,

it was in June 1935 when Dr. Bob had his last drink.

>

> Mike Barns

>


0 -1 0 0
8403 John Barton John Barton Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 5/1/2012 12:29:00 PM


So here is what I had on Bill A. and thanks to Jared for helping me with the

last name. The info below in italics is from the Timelines of the First 25 AA

Groups.



What do you have to support a 38 SOB date for Bill Ames? Do you have something

with Fitz's name attached to it or a letter or recording from Bill A stating his

SOB? If so I'd be happy to add him to the list but we need a sufficient piece of

evidence to support this. Pass It On has Hardin C. and Bill (A.) joining with

Fitz in 1940. The story from Donald Graham as detailed in Nancy's Bio of Fitz

comes from Graham's recollection many years later and can not by itself be

considered authoritative.



A.A. Group # 10 Washington D.C.



At first he (Fitz) met with minimal success, but by the fall of 1939 the nucleus

of a small group had been established in Washington. He had been long a loner in

Washington, but Fitz was eventually joined by Hardin C. and Bill A.[note 2] and

was also joined by Florence Rankin



Note 2. When Bill Wilson died in 1971, Donald E. Graham, now the publisher of

The Washington Post, but then a young man learning the family business from the

ground up, and working as a staff writer, interviewed me. Graham's story says in

part: "Bill A., an Arlington businessman, recalled that in December 1939, when

Alcoholics Anonymous was a small, little known group, he went to New York to

meet Mr. Wilson. The next month Mr. Wilson helped start an AA chapter here, the

fourth in the country."



From the Biography of Fitz M. by Nancy O.



John Barton's Comments: Based on the comments of Bill A. this group (Washington

D.C.) would be December of 1939. Arrival of Ned Foote supports this. However,

actual start of Group may have been January of 1940. See PIO p.257 N2 Washington

Intergroup History lists date as October 28, 1939 but this is in variance with

PIO. In lieu of discrepancy we list this group as the first group of December

1939.



_______________________________________



From: jax760 jax760@yahoo.com >

Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012

Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred



Hi Bob,



So who is Bill Ames of Virginia and how did he get sober in 1938? Who from the

list of 89 pioneers (sober through 12/39) carried the message to him and in what

fashion is that documented?



Since I have never read of or heard of Bill Ames in any AA History before I

would love to hear more.



Thanks and God Bless



- - - -



"bobhickey674" wrote:



I checked out your list and you seem to have missed Bill Ames of Virginia who

got sober in 1938


0 -1 0 0
8404 James Bliss James Bliss Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 5/1/2012 1:20:00 PM


I do not remember where I read it, perhaps on this list, but my understanding

was that in early AA they did not reset their sobriety dates for slips. One

question this concept would raise is what the dividing line is between a slip

and just not getting the program, drinking for several more years and then

returning.



But, that would explain the sobriety date for Dr. Bob being listed as May rather

than June.



Jim



- - - -



Note from Glenn C. -- O.K., that would explain why J. D. Holmes continued to

give his sobriety date as October 1936 even though he had a slip in January or

February 1937. But two or three months of renewed drinking was enough to bring

him back to the program, and somewhere around April 1937, he got sobered up

again, and went on to spread AA through large parts of the state of Indiana (and

parts of southern Michigan as well).



See the letter which J. D. Holmes wrote around 1953 or 1954 and sent to Dean L.

Barnett, the first person to try to write a history of Alcoholics Anonymous in

Indiana – http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html at a little past the middle of the

page.



Also Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers pp. 113 and 148.


0 -1 0 0
8405 John Moore John Moore Re: Memories of Sybil Corwin, from someone she sponsored Memories of Sybil Corwin, from someone she sponsored 4/28/2012 4:26:00 PM


Sorry I do not have a copy of that talk!



Thanks for sharing Matt. I have had your letter about Sybil & Irma Livoni for

many years and use it when we do the Third Tradition in the 12 x 12 at my home

group here in Vermont. I always wondered who "Matt" was and what group he was

from and it is very nice to cross paths with you finally and know who you are.



I got sober in So Cal and lived in Torrance till 1979 when I moved east.



Sybil came to my home group South Bay Survivors for our anniversary meeting one

year. Anniversary night we had a four speaker 1/2 hour talk format and all four

speakers were old timers. Beside Sybil was Gene Edmiston, and I think Sybil's

brother Tex, though my memory is dim and I hope it was him and he was not dead

LOL by then, and I forget who the fourth speaker was, maybe Alabam C or Bea G.,

but it was a memorable night.



I have heard Sybil share quite a few times around Los Angeles and she was

wonderful. What a gift to be a newcomer and grow up around these AA pioneers.



John M

Burlington Vermont US



- - - -



Masterman pupmasters@yahoo.com > wrote:



> Does anyone have a copy of a tape of Sybil Corwin

> from January 14th, 1984 recorded in Riverside, Calif ....

>

> They made a tape of that night, and Sybil talked

> about her friend who lived in Riverside, who had

> just died, I think his name was Dick Greggory, and

> he had a wife Alma Greggory I believe. If anyone

> knows how I can get a copy of that tape (mine was

> destroyed in hurricane katrina) I would be so grateful.


0 -1 0 0
8406 Masterman Masterman Memories of Sybil Memories of Sybil 4/28/2012 9:24:00 PM


My sponsor Sybil - memories are God's way of giving us roses everyday in winter.



Hi all, Matt Masterman here and I'm an alcoholic (hi Matt!)



I was just going to point out a small correction about the

date that my sponsor Sybil got sober (March 21st, rather than

March 23rd). I hadn't typed out Sybil's experiences for a long time and I had

been asked by someone in the version of the Grapevine

for another country to tell some stories about Sybil.

So I used this page to type it out, and am going to copy it

to send to her.



I thought, "I miss Sybil so much" and that someone told me

that in a way I've kept Sybil alive, for people who have

never met her by speaking about her so much.



Since she's one of the few people who went to her first meeting,

got kicked out because they had never had a woman before,

and then stayed sober from her 2nd meeting for 57 yrs,

and who was in AA before they had the 12 traditions,

I thought , well maybe I'll just talk about her for

a new generation of AA'rs who love soaking up aa history.



So here goes. Much love to you all, in advance,

Matt



Just a slight correction, regarding Sybil's first meeting.

The date was Friday March 21st 1941 not March 23rd ...



(even Sybil would say the wrong date 40 yrs later, as she

didn't have a calendar of that month, so she herself got

the date confused when she would speak at a meeting, I

found out using a computer, but old tapes of her speaking

had the date as 3/23 rather than 3/21)



(info good for obsessive compulsive alcoholics,

like me ... sorry)



Her first meeting was held at the Elks Temple, now the Park Plaza Hotel where it

had the room to go from 12 people to over 400

(used in filming a well known Journey Music Video, "OH SHERRY").



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGZgzE-KaiY&feature=related



Back in 1941 that was the Elks Temple --

an enormous building in downtown L.A., next

to what is now MacArthur Park -- now called

The Park Plaza Hotel.



Here's a link to the present day building

with videos and pictures of the enormous lobby

that Sybil had to wander after they kicked her

out of her first meeting.



http://www.parkplazala.com/sites/courses/layout9.asp?id=445&page=13493



Imagine little tiny Sybil all of 105 lbs walking around

in that enormous lobby with the big grand wide staircase.

She said she felt out of place to begin with, and thought

that the reason they told her and the other wives to leave

the meeting was because they didn't like her. She didn't know

that they had only 12 members in the Los Angeles

meeting of A.A. and they had never had a woman alcoholic.



Sybil had written to the New York office and thought that

AA was a bunch of doctors in some AA hospital

and she asked "send me the address and I'll come back east

to your AA hospital." Ruth Hock, Bill Wilson's secretary, wrote

Sybil back privately as her letter was one of the first that

was generated by the March 1st Issue of the Sat. Evening Post

Article written by Jack Alexander, and also because it was

from a woman. Ruth wrote "We haven't had much luck with

lady lushes in AA, but I'm sure you'll do very well, as

there is one meeting in your area."



When Ruth wrote Sybil she signed the letter R.Hock, telling Sybil that she felt

people would value the information better if it

came from a man. My how times have changed.



Years later Sybil said she felt lucky that Ruth had

written her first, and wrote her quickly, before

the avalanche of letters that flooded the NY Office.

From the Sat. Even. Post article.



Since the flood of letters were too many to answer

individually,if there was a meeting close to where

the person lived, they would send those letters

to the area meeting and asked the members to

answer the letters and make 12 step calls on

the author of each letter.



There was ONE of the few meetings that existed in

1941 in Los Angeles (only ONE meeting, for the whole week).



The building was built in 1925, and has one of the most

enormous and cavernous lobbies I've ever been in.

Ruth's letter to Sybil told her "You don't need to come

back to New York to go to A.A., there is a meeting in

your home town that meets every Friday night at the

Elks Temple. So Sybil put on her hat and gloves and

she and her husband Dick Maxwell went down to the

Elks Temple.



They found the meeting room and there were

12 men there, seated around a table and 3 or 4 women

sitting against the wall. Frank Randall, one of the

"owners" of that meeting (Sybil told me that if you

started a meeting, you owned it, and were the secretary.

Frank Randall and Mort Joseph were the secretaries of

that meeting, also called "the mother group")



Frank would start the meeting like this....



"Welcome to Alcoholics Anonymous. We're a bunch of ex-drunks

who have banded together to obtain and maintain our sobriety

on an all time basis, with no mental reservations WHATSOEVER!"

(bang bang, went the gavel on the table) "As is our

custom we're going to ask the wives to leave us now,

and please join us after the meeting for coffee and

doughnuts".



Sybil said that she thought they didn't like her and that's

the reason she was being kicked out of the meeting.

Her husband Dick Maxwell stayed inside because they thought

he was the alcoholic, as they'd never had a woman alcoholic

at that meeting before. Meetings did not just go from 8:30 to 10:00pm, they

went on for hours and hours as it was the ONLY

time during the entire week that the fellows had to see

each other.



Sybil said it felt normal for her to feel that they

didn't want her. She said she never seemed to fit in

when she younger or when she was drinking. If the

women were wearing their skirts shorter hers were longer,

and when they were wearing them longer she would show up

with a shorter skirt. She often felt very out of place

because she never was very good with her makeup and had

a horrible twitch in her left eye. Whenever she got

nervous her eye would start to twitch, and it was very

embarrassing.



You can get an even better feel of the scale of that

stairway and lobby and massive cast iron gate and iron

work at the top of the stairway in the Journey Song Video

"Oh Sherry." The architecture of the building is impressive

to me, and it fascinates me that even today, almost 72 yrs

later, we can still see where the ONE meeting per week

was held, in a town that now has over 2,000 meetings

per week, and that the building was so unusual that

it's still used for parties, for filming, for weddings,

and that I was able to walk around in it, trying to feel

what a scared little alcoholic would feel like in this

cavernous and cold place, feeling like she got kicked

out of the meeting. I don't know if I would have

come back to a 2nd meeting, after having such a horrible

experience at my first meeting, like Sybil did.



Also funny that she got kicked out of her first meeting,

only to become from 1960 til she died in 1998 the

woman with the longest sobriety of any woman in AA.

Kicked out, drunk after her first meeting, to staying

sober from then on, for 57 yrs.



Her tenacity was incredible. I miss her so, and

appreciated & cherished her and what she gave me

while she was alive



After we went to that building for an anniversary

party I threw for Sybil, I couldn't get over

what it must have been like for her, this tiny little lady,

to wander around this enormous lobby all the while in her head,

thinking, thinking, thinking that they didn't like her and

were probably discussing her case with her husband.



When the meeting ended and they invited everyone back,

Sybil did not stay for coffee and doughnuts.

Sybil said to her husband "Give me my pills and let's get

out of here" (still thinking that they were doctors).

Dick said "Oh Sybil you don't know what they put me though.

They don't even know you're alive. All they did was

tell me one horror story after another and told me that

I needed to Easy Does It, and Keep Coming Back." It

was horrible.



So they left and Sybil left Dick at home and went down to a bar

and got royally smashed. She said that she proudly told one

of the patrons "I'm in Alcoholics Anonymous now", while

secretly ashamed that they kicked her out. Then she

got 86th-ed out (kicked out) of the bar and remembered

that Ruth had put something in her letter with a phone number



It said "If you need to speak to someone before the meeting

you can call Cliff Walker at CRestview XXXX. He was a milk

man and was up as he had to go on his milk delivery route

when Sybil called.



"SEND YOUR A.A. AMBULANCE AND PICK ME UP"! Sybil said.



"You're Drunk" Cliff said. (Side note: Cliff

became her sponsor for the next 20 years.)



"OF COURSE I'M DRUNK. I WENT DOWN TO YOUR LOUSY CLUBHOUSE

AND THEY THREW ME OUT OF THE MEETING," Sybil said



"Did you tell them you are a woman alcoholic, because

we've never had one before."



"NO OF COURSE NOT. PLUS THEY NEVER GAVE MY HUSBAND MY PILLS,

HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO GET SOBER WHEN THEY GAVE ME NO PILLS?"



"Well this has been a horrible mistake, surely.

You didn't tell them you were an alcoholic.

They thought you were one of the wives. If you had identified yourself as

alcoholic, you would have been as welcome

as the flowers in May. My name is Cliff Walker,

what is your name Ma'am?"



"I AM SYBIL MAXWELL."



"Well Sybil, I want you to go home, and I want

you to get some sleep, and I will tell them that

we have a woman alcoholic, and you be sure to come

back because WE NEED YOU" (he had heard they were

sending all the letters from New York).



"YOU WANT ME TO GO HOME, YOUNG MAN, OK. I'LL GO HOME.

I'LL GO HOME AND I'M GOING TO WRITE TO NEW YORK AGAIN

AND TELL THEM THAT NO ONE WOULD SEND YOUR A.A. AMBULANCE

AND I'M GOING TO GET YOU FIRED YOUNG MAN!" And she

hung the phone up and went home.



When Sybil saw the Jack Alexander Article in the

Saturday Evening Post, she had seen the famous

picture of the 2 men sitting at the bedside

of AA'r #3. Sybil thought that that was a

hospital bed, and somehow thought they were

based on a medical solution, and had an AA

hospital.



You can see the painting that Sybil thought was a hospital

bed at this link. The one that AA.org has for the article

does not have the cover art or that painting in the

reprint of the article. I think they didn't want to

have to pay for the use of the cover art, etc.



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aajalexpost1941.html



She also thought that A.A. had a big white

ambulance with 2 BIG RED LETTER A'S ON EACH

SIDE OF IT.



So the next week when they started the meeting they said

"Welcome to Alcoholics Anonymous. We're a bunch of ex-drunks

who have banded together to obtain and maintain our sobriety

on an all time basis, with no mental reservations WHATSOEVER!"

(bang bang, went the gavel on the table)

"As is our custom we're going to ask the women who are

not alcoholic, to leave and join the wives for now,

and please join us after the meeting for coffee and doughnuts".



Sybil said that they were very welcoming to her and that

when the meeting got around to the other letters

generated from the Jack Alexander article that Frank

said "Well we have all these letters from people who wrote

to AA in New York, and for anyone who lives near one of

the AA meetings, they sent the letters to the groups

and we're supposed to do a 12 step call on them."



"I've bundled the letters together, and Curly O'Neal you

come up and get the letters from the Long Beach Area,

and Mel Trikie you come up and get all the letters

from the San Bernardino area," and he distributed all the

letters except for one bunch. Then he said

"Now these are all from women and I understand from

Cliff Walker that we have a woman alcoholic now,

and her name is Sybil, are you Sybil?"



"Yes sir" Sybil said she replied, her knees shaking.



"Well come on up here Sybil"



She said she couldn't move, but eventually got up

there, covering her mouth so he couldn't see her

mouth twitch.



She said that he continued and said ... "Now all these

letters are from women and I want you to go and see

them and tell them where we meet and bring them down

to the meeting next Friday"



"I can't do that sir."



"Why not?"



"Well, I will be drunk by next Friday. I still haven't

been given any pills and I don't know how you men

are staying sober, and I don't want to take on that

responsibility and let those women down.



"Well, you won't let them down Sybil, and I'll tell

you why. When you call on someone we call it a 12

step call, because those are the steps we take to

stay sober, and right here in our big red book it

says 'Practical experience shows that nothing will

so much INSURE IMMUNITY from drinking as intensive

work with other alcoholics.' Bill Wilson one of

our founders found that when he was talking and

working with other alcoholics his desire to drink

went away"



"Well what do you want me to say to these women."



"Very little, you don't know anything yet!"



Sybil said she laughed a little and everyone else

did as well.



"But you knock on their door or ring their bell

and when they open the door and you see it's a

woman, you hold their letter up and say "Hi,

I'm Sybil and I'm from Alcoholics Anonymous,

did you write this letter?" and they'll see their

own handwriting and will say 'yes' and you tell them

that you came down here to the meeting and they

all seemed to be very sober and how about if we

go down there together and find out exactly how

they are doing it,' and that's all you need to

say, and you bring them down to next meeting

and we're going to put you in charge of all the

women."



Sybil said she could see a neon sign in her mind

that said "SYBIL'S IN CHARGE .... SYBIL'S IN CHARGE"

and she said she thought -- "Gee, last week I

got thrown out, this week I get put in charge

of all the women. You sure do get promoted

around this place in a hurry" -- and that led

to her going on 50 Twelve Step calls that week.

She even went up to the Miramar Hotel in Santa

Barbara, and brought a woman down to the meeting.



Sybil said the meeting grew -- it mushroomed.

And she could be real big because Frank and Mort

gave her a notebook and they said, "Now you write

down all the names of women and then you get them

a sponsor. And you have the sponsor report back

to you. Then, when you look in your notebook,

you will know who you gave the call to.

You'll have the report on it.

That's a good system."

And Sybil took it oh so seriously because

she'd go down to the mother group --

now we had two, three, four hundred people

possibly, microphone and everything --

and as the forty or fifty women came in

and they were seated, Sybil could check her

notebook and could think,

"There's Eva. She called on Bonnie.

Bonnie called on so-and-so, and Fran,

and yeah, yeah." And it checked out

perfectly, beautiful.



Then she would tell Frank and Mort it

was working fine. They'd say, "That's nice.

You're doing a good job Sybil."



That worked pretty well

for a while. Sybil got her style back in sink with

most of the styles of the day. She said that her

nervous twitch in her face disappeared, and

everything was wonderful



But one night Sybil went to the mother group

and a gal named Kay came down the aisle and she had

six strangers with her and they hadn't been

cleared through Sybil. And She walked up to

her and said, "Where did you get these women?

you didn't clear them with me, look here is y

our name, and the women you brought are not in my book.

You know what Frank and Mort are going to

say about the system."



Kay then replied and said,

"To hell with the system and to hell with you

too Sybil. ! I have friends who used to drink

with me in Culver City, they have a drinking

problem same as I do, and they found out that

I was getting sober and staying sober.

They asked me how I was doing it.

I told them I joined AA.

They said, 'Can I go with you?'

I said, 'Yes.'"

Then Kay said, "It's as simple as that

and anytime anybody wants to come to an

AA meeting with me for a drinking problem

that's the way it's going to be, and I'll

never report to you or your system again."



Sybil said she felt her face start to twitch and

she almost broke into tears. After the meeting she

was discussing it with her brother Tex who was now

also in AA and she said "Tex that woman defied me,

and my mouth is twitching all over again and I don't know

what I'm going to do, my book didn't balance out

and this was a horrible day.



She said that Tex said "What you're going to do is

resign from being in charge before they FIRE YOU"

and Sybil said she did and that after that she enjoyed

her meetings and 12 step work even more and more.



On Sybil's 44th AA Birthday, I had a reunion with

her and her sponsor and any of the early AA'rs

who were still living and we all met where that first

meeting was held, and then all went to supper. I

had never known Sybil had a sponsor who was still living.

Her name was Evelyn and she was a very sweet, yet

very shy woman, and Sybil told me that she had never, ever,

spoke at a meeting, no matter how many times they asked her.



I asked Sybil "Never? Really and truly NEVER??"

and she said "Yep, on my word of honor, never Ever!"



One of the things about being with Sybil at all the

various meetings she went to and was invited to speak

at, I learned that there were lots and lots of differences

in the way meetings were conducted. Sybil and Bob

referred to these as "Local Tribal Customs" that each

meeting, or each city or state developed over time.



I was never to say "Well the way we do it in L.A."

was because Bob told me that there actually is a sign

at a clubhouse in San Francisco that reads

"We don't care how you do it in L.A." on the wall

in the meeting room at the clubhouse.

Bob said "If they clap, you clap, if they staand and

hold hands and say our wonderful serenity prayer you

hold hands and say our serenity prayer" Whatever they

do, you do, and remember you're a guest at all of the

meetings you go to with Sybil.



Sybil never spoke about how long she was sober,

other than to point out that AA could work that long

and that well for everyone.



When people would want to call Sybil an oldtimer

she would ask them NOT to call her that.

She said that she just got here before other people did,

and that was her only claim to fame.



She also said that we were like little birds

little fledglings and that we were all learning how

to fly, and would say "thank you for being my fellow

fledglings and letting me fly with all of you.

Thank you for inviting me here tonight.



............. and that's some of the stories

I remember Sybil saying about her first meetings.



I think she was adequate. What do you think?


0 -1 0 0
8407 Masterman Masterman Re: Women in early AA Women in early AA 4/28/2012 10:02:00 PM


Dear John



Hi, Matt Masterman here, and Sybil and Bob used to sponsor

me. Sybil herself used to say that her bday was 3/23

but that was an error that she started to repeat in the

80's on speaker tapes. If you put the days into Excel or

Lotus 123 you'll see that her first meeting (and stayed

sober from) was March 21st 1941.



Like I said, even Sybil was saying the wrong date,

so people would type the error if they heard

her on a tape.



When Marty Mann had her brief relapse in 1960

Except for anyone who was still alive from then

until April 1998, if they were sober longer than

Sybil was, then they were the woman sober the longest

in AA.



If not, then Sybil then became the woman in AA with

the longest sobriety that I'm aware of. Someone may

have been alive with longer that, of course, who

was less known, since we're anonymous and don't

collect birthday information program wise (meeting

wise yes with some meetings, and of course we are

not anonymous with each other, only at THAT OTHER

LEVEL, not at the level with each other. Also since

Sybil was the executive secretary of the Los Angeles

Intergroup for 12 yrs, and since Bill was very interested

in how his AA program worked for women, she and Bill

became friends, and she and Bob used to vacation

with Bill and Lois. She was more visible, but that didn't

mean that someone somewhere in AA might have been

sober longer.



She spoke at the 1985 convention in MOntreal

and when she died in 1998, since it was past her

bday, she had just celebrated 57 years

in what we called "the east wing" of their home.



Their home on Mt. Washington was literally across

the street from the convalescent hospital that

she was in when she died. We would get her,

carry her up the stairs in her wheelchair,

and have supper with her and then Bobby (Bob's

son) and I would carry her back, down the steps,

across the street, and would say "Sybil, we're

going to take you to the east wing of the house."



Having women help her bathe, dress, etc

was a lot easier on her, and she was

far more comfortable with that, than having

her husband and male sponsee's do it.



http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-irma_livoni.html



I don't know if you know about Sybil's sponsee

Irma.



Pic of Sybil there with me.



If you'd like any other information about her,

let me know. She was one of my heroes too.



You might like to hear a funny story,



Sybil and Bob flew back with Bill and Lois

after Bill had spoken at a convention,

and they were going to vacation together.

Bob said it was his first time in first class

so it was a big deal for him.



The next morning Lois and Sybil were in the

kitchen at Stepping Stones having coffee

and Bob joined them and Bill was the last

to come down for breakfast.



During breakfast Bill asked Sybil,

"You know I didn't feel that great yesterday

and I felt like I wasn't at my best when

I gave my talk. What was your impression

Sybil? Did I sound Ok? Did I make sense

with whatever I was speaking about?"



Sybil paused for a moment, and what's the word

(is it a real word, or a made up word)

'incredulously' looked at Bill and said

"But Bill??? You're BILL!!" as he could do

no wrong, as far as Sybil was concerned.



In the same way that Sybil used to lean forward

whenever Bob spoke, and she looked like she

had never heard him speak, and that he was

THE most interesting speaker she had ever heard,

Sybil was also like that with Bill,

and I was like that with both Sybil and Bob,

as well As Alabam Carothers and Marie Stinner

and my dear odd friend Jayne Grey, all from

Radford.



Can we attach things here?



[NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: Unfortunately, the

Yahoo system setup that we have does not allow

us to receive, post, or send messages with

attachments.]



if you'd like to see some pictures of Sybil,

and Sybil and Bob, they were my heroes and role

models. and gave me a life that is so wonderful.



How did Sybil become one of your heroes??



AA didn't give me back my life,

it gave me a life I never had.



Much AA love to you,



Matt



- - - -



John Moore wrote:

>

> Sybil Doris Adams Statton Hart Maxwell Willis Corwin

>

> Joined AA in Los Angeles, the Mother Group. She got sober shortly after the

Jack Alexander Article in the Saturday Evening

> Post (pub date March 1 1941).

>

> Said to have been the first woman sober in AA west of the Mississippi ... (and

before her death I understand that Sybil became our longest sober AA member ...

I wish someone could verify this).

>

> One of my AA heroes!

>

> John


0 -1 0 0
8409 Charles Bishop Charles Bishop Re: Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 Mel B. -- 62 years of sobriety on April 15 4/27/2012 12:04:00 PM


Hi AAHL:



I invited Mel B. down to Wheeling to talk at a West Virginia AA Convention one

summer.



His talk was wonderful. We had everyone present sign a Big Book for him. I

presented the gift to him after his sharing.



He replied: "Thanks, I've always wanted to read this book."



Keep trudging, stumbling, Mel. Love ya.



servus, Charlie B.


0 -1 0 0
8410 B B Gideon Paul Kellogg Gideon Paul Kellogg 5/2/2012 7:13:00 AM


Friends,



I am wondering if anyone who knows about the pioneers of our fellowship can tell

me if Gideon Paul Kellogg is the same person as Paul Kellogg, known as AA#34 on

the "counted noses" list.



I ask this because evidence points to that. I have seen in the literature that

his wife was "Gussie" Kellogg. When researching Gideon Paul I found his wife is

Charlotte "Augusta" Kellogg (Hedges). Would stand to reason that "Gussie" is

short for Augusta.



Additionally the birthday of GP Kellogg is 20 Jan 1896 which would put him in

the right age bracket, also there are New Jersey references in census results

and his World War II draft card -- specifically, Union New Jersey.



Any info would be appreciated.


0 -1 0 0
8411 jm48301@aol.com jm48301@a... Re: AA World Library literature AA World Library literature 4/28/2012 4:27:00 PM


Am I Drinking Too Much? by Doyle F. Lindley, Robert T. Dorris



http://www.allbookstores.com/Drinking-Too-Much-Doyle-Lindley/9780915082025



Am I Drinking Too Much? by Doyle F. Lindley, Robert T. Dorris

(9780915082025), Book. 0915082020, Alcoholism - treatment, Psychopathology /

addiction, Psychology ...



You will get an enormous number of references to the name Doyle Lindley on

search engines like Bing:



http://www.bing.com/search?q=Doyle+Lindley+&+Am+I+Drinking+Too+Much&qs=n&form=QB\

LH&pq=doyle+lindley+&+am+i+drinking+too+much&sc=1-38&sp=-1&sk=#



0 -1 0 0
8412 Denez McD Denez McD One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Structure One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Structure 5/3/2012 2:32:00 PM


Please help my friend Dennis McD get the answer to his question:



====================

From: gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net

(gratefuldennis at sbcglobal.net)



When Bill was running around promoting the General Service Structure in one of

his talks he mentioned how we need to move from a benign anarchy to a majority

ruled democracy. I lost this when my computer crashed recently so does anyone

know about this talk and where I can get a hold of a copy. If anyone is on AA

History Lovers perhaps they can find out.



Thank you;



Dennis M.

====================



Thank you,



DenezMcD

denezmcd@aol.com >

(denezmcd at aol.com)


0 -1 0 0
8413 J.BARRY Murtaugh J.BARRY Murtaugh Ernie Kurtz is out of the hospital now Ernie Kurtz is out of the hospital now 4/30/2012 8:53:00 AM


From Barry Murtaugh, Fred David Levine, and Charlie Bishop



- - - -



From: "J.BARRY Murtaugh" murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com >

(murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com)



Prayers for smooth recovery, Ernie.



- - - -



From: Fred David Levine

mbfdl@rcn.com > (mbfdl at rcn.com)



Ernie:



A full and speedy recovery ...



Fred



- - - -



From: "Charles Bishop"

bishopbk@comcast.net > (bishopbk at comcast.net)



Welcome home, Ernie.



servus, Charlie.



___________________________________________



Message 8394 on Sun, Apr 29, 2012 from

kurtzern@umich.edu > (kurtzern at umich.edu)



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8394



Ernie Kurtz wrote:



"I was in hospital and rehab since March 9th and remain disabled though now at

home since yesterday."


0 -1 0 0
8414 maureen kerrigan maureen kerrigan RE: Names of the First One Hundred -- Norman Y. Names of the First One Hundred -- Norman Y. 4/30/2012 6:15:00 PM


I'm originally from Youngstown, Ohio,  and thought I had heard at least one of

the original 100 was from there. Checked the Akron AA site



http://www.akronaa.org/Archives/Voices/Voices.html



What about Norman Y. -- sobriety date January 28, 1939?



Norman had lost his wife and family, his job and his sight to bootleg liquor

when Jack D. took the A.A. message to him in Youngstown. In 1940 he had the Big

Book transcribed into braille and sent out to other blind A.A. members.



He appears in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers on pages 183-184, 221, 223,

249-250, 263.



I am not familiar with posting, so don't know if I posted this right?!

 

thx


0 -1 0 0
8415 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews RE: Winchester cathedral post -- demographics of atheism Winchester cathedral post -- demographics of atheism 5/1/2012 4:24:00 AM


Re "demographics of atheism", a platform speaker at the 1990 Seattle

international reunion quoted from Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's The Phenomenon of

Man, "We're not human beings having a spiritual experience; we're spiritual

beings having a human experience."



And Ernest Kurtz and Katherine Ketcham point out, "Spirituality is like health.

We all have health; we may have good health or poor health, but it's something

we can't avoid having. The same is true of spirituality: every human being is a

spiritual being ..." (The Spirituality of Imperfection; Bantam; 1992)



The Alister Hardy Society www.alisterhardysociety.org/ explores "the nature and

study of spiritual, religious and psychic experience". And Quakers speak of

"that of God in everyone" - including atheists, presumably!



BTW I wonder what Bob and Bill would make of AA "shrines"!



Laurie A.



- - - -



PS: In The Varieties of Religious Experience, William James notes: "Taking

creeds and faith-state together, as forming 'religions,' and treating these as

purely subjective phenomena, without regard to the question of their 'truth,' we

are obliged, on account of their extraordinary influence upon action and

endurance to class them amongst the most important biological functions of

mankind. Their stimulant and anaesthetic effect is so great that Professor Leuba

... goes so far as to say that so long as men can use their God, they care very

little who he is, or even whether he is at all. 'The truth of the matter can be

put,' says Leuba, 'in this way; God is not known, he is not understood; he is

used - sometimes ... as moral support, sometimes as friend, sometimes as an

object of love. If he proves himself useful, the religious consciousness asks

for no more than that. Does God exist? What is he? are so many irrelevant

questions. Not God, but life, is, in the last analysis, the end of religion. The

love of life, at any and every level of development, is the religious impulse'."



And in a footnote James adds: "... Compare what W. Bender says (in his Wessen

der Religion, Bonn, 1888): 'Not the question about God, and not the inquiry into

the origin and purpose of the world is religion, but the question about Man. All

religious views of life are anthropocentric. Religion is that activity of the

human impulse towards self-preservation by means of which Man seeks to carry his

essential vital purposes through against the adverse pressure of the world by

raising himself freely towards the world's ordering and governing powers when

the limits of his own strength are reached'."



CF "the stimulant and anaesthetic effect of religion" with Jung's insight into

the connection (at a low level!) of the alcoholic and religious thirst.



As Bill said, let's quit the debating society and "theological abstractions"

about whether God made man or man made God, and get on with living "happily and

usefully whole".



_________________________________________



FROM THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE: DEMOGRAPHICS OF ATHEISM



European AA people live in cultures where there are often a large number of

people who do not believe in a personal God, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism



The majority of people still believe in a personal God in some countries:

90% in Romania

80% in Poland

74% in Italy

73% in Ireland



But less than half the population are believers in many other countries:

47% in Germany

43% in Belgium

38% in the U.K.

34% in France and the Netherlands

32% in Norway

31% in Denmark

23% in Sweden

19% in the Czech Republic



But in the countries where most of the people no longer believe in God, there

are often a surprisingly large number of people who believe in some sort of

spirit or life force:

53% in Sweden

50% in the Czech Republic

49% in Denmark

47% in Norway

40% in the U.K.

37% in the Netherlands

29% in Belgium

27% in France

25% in Germany



_________________________________________



For this reason, it would probably be a good idea to point out that Mel Barger

asked Bill Wilson on more than one occasion, what happened in that memorable

spiritual experience he had in Towns Hospital, and Bill W. said that it was what

his era of history called "cosmic consciousness" or "cosmic religious feeling."

Bill referred Mel to the famous book by the Canadian psychiatrist Richard

Maurice Bucke, "Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human

Mind."



ALBERT EINSTEIN



Modern Europeans who are atheists might find what Bill W. experienced at

Winchester cathedral more understandable by reading a piece written by the

famous German-Swiss physicist Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York

Times Magazine, 9 November 1930, 1-4. In the following paragraphs, I give a

brief outline of that article and a few excerpts. It may be read online at:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm



EINSTEIN ON COSMIC RELIGIOUS FEELING



1. The first stage in the development of religion was a fear-based religion:

primitive people attempted to secure the favor of imaginary personal beings,

called gods and goddesses or spirits, by performing actions and sacrifices

directed by a priestly caste.



2. The second stage was moral religion, seen in the Jewish scriptures and the

Christian New Testament: belief in a single personal God who is moral and

loving.



Both of these forms of religion believe in anthropomorphic gods and spirits,

that is, supernatural beings which are persons and think and act like human

beings.



3. The third stage is cosmic religious feeling. "It is very difficult to

elucidate this feeling," Einstein said, "as there is no anthropomorphic

conception of God corresponding to it."



"The individual feels the futility of human desires and aims and the sublimity

and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and in the world of

thought. Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he wants to

experience the universe as a single significant whole."



"The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of

religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so

that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is

precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with

this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their

contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light,

men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one

another."



In this modern age, where science has taught us how the universe actually works,

there can be no anthropomorphic, personal God at the focus of this feeling,

because such a being would be totally impossible. Praying to a God to rescue you

from this or that is silly, and there are no supernatural rewards and

punishments for good and evil. There is no heaven or hell. "The man who is

thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot

for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of

events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really

seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social

or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for

the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and

internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an

inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes."



Einstein, who was a highly ethical man, insisted that there had to be a totally

different kind of basis for moral behavior: "A man's ethical behavior should be

based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no

religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be

restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death."



What motivates the best scientists, Einstein insists, is their sense of awe and

wonder at the majestic sweep of the universe, from the smallest level to the

biggest: electrons, neutrons, and atoms, the tiny DNA chains that determine the

evolution of species, the electrochemical structures of the brain, stars and

galaxies, and all the way up to the structure of space-time itself:



"The cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific

research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the

devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved

are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work,

remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep

conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand,

were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and

Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in

disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics!"



_________________________________________



[The article has been reprinted in Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions, based on

Mein Weltbild, ed. by Carl Seelig and other sources, new translations and

revisions by Sonja Bargmann (New York, Crown Publishers, 1954), 36-40, and also

in Albert Einstein, The World as I See It (New York: Philosophical Library,

1949), 24-28.]



_________________________________________



EINSTEIN AND PAUL TILLICH



See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality, Chapter 11, "Tillich and Einstein"



Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr were the two most famous theologians at Union

Theological Seminary in New York City. In Tillich's counter article to

Einstein's piece, he agreed with Einstein that the idea of a personal God was an

outmoded myth. The real Higher Power was an impersonal absolute (which Tillich

called "the ground of being"). But Tillich argued that personalistic language

was very valuable in talking about our relationship to this Higher Power, as

long as we remembered that this image of a personal God watching out for us was

metaphorical and symbolic only. It was only a sign post pointing to a higher

reality, where that higher reality was a completely impersonal and indescribable

abyss of non-being, which could give us the gift of new being when our old lives

had collapsed into ruins, but which would swallow us up into non-being at the

end of our lives.



It is true that Father Samuel Moor Shoemaker III, rector of Calvary Episcopal

Church from 1928 to 1952, and the American leader of the Oxford Group during the

1930's (continuing until he broke with the Oxford Group in 1941), was a figure

known to everyone in the theological world of New York City.



But it was people like PAUL TILLICH, REINHOLD NIEBUHR, EMMET FOX, and HARRY

EMERSON FOSDICK who were more typical of the general theological spirit of the

city during the period when Alcoholics Anonymous was being formed.



I am not trying to talk here about what the Christians believed who originally

built Winchester cathedral in England back during the Middle Ages, nor about

what today's Anglican pastors preach and teach in their cathedrals and parishes

in the British Isles, but about what Bill Wilson felt when he walked into that

cathedral as a young soldier, and about how -- some fifteen years later in New

York City -- he interpreted what he had once felt there so long ago.



Winchester cathedral was the site of one of his earliest experiences of "cosmic

religious feeling," or as he would describe it in the Big Book, "catapulted into

what I like to call the fourth dimension of existence" (p. 8) or "rocketed into

a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed" (p. 25).



That is what Winchester symbolizes in the AA movement, and you don't have to

believe in a personal God to understand it. Just stand in the cathedral or at

the tomb of the Hampshire Grenadier and softly recite the Serenity Prayer, and

be thankful for what you feel while doing that, and where you've gotten in your

life, now you have put it on this new basis.


0 -1 0 0
8416 brian koch brian koch Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 5/1/2012 12:20:00 PM


Wallace Gillam shown twice? #29, and #83. Is it possible to be two of the first

one hundred? split personality?



- - - -



> > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY

> > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron

> > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron

> > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron

> > 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ

> > 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron

> > 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron

> > 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD

> > 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT

> > 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron

> > 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron

> > 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron

> > 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY

> > 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland

> > 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland

> > 16 Harry Latta Jul-36 Akron

> > 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron

> > 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron

> > 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron

> > 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron

> > 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ

> > 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ

> > 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron

> > 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron

> > 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland

> > 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron

> > 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron

> > 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron

> > 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron

> > 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland

> > 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland

> > 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron

> > 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron

> > 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ

> > 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron

> > 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron

> > 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ

> > 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron

> > 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron

> > 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron

> > 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron

> > 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ

> > 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron

> > 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron

> > 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron

> > 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron

> > 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY

> > 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron

> > 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron

> > 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron

> > 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron

> > 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron

> > 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron

> > 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron

> > 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron

> > 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron

> > 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron

> > 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron

> > 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron

> > 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY

> > 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland

> > 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland

> > 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY

> > 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY

> > 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT

> > 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY

> > 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY

> > 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron

> > 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY

> > 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY

> > 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY

> > 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ

> > 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA

> > 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY

> > 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI

> > 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY

> > 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron

> > 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron

> > 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland

> > 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland

> > 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY

> > 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland

> > 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron

> > 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron

> > 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ

> > 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron

> > 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ

> > 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ

> > 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY

> > 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ

> > 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA

> > 92 William Worton Feb39 NY

> > 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY

> > 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ

> > 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ

> > 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ

> > 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ

> > 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ

> > 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ

> > 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ

> >

> > Other Names - Shortly after April 1st

or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers

> > Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard

> > Brooke B Shep Cornell

> > Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves

> > Alec Johnson Ned Foote

> > Gordon S. Russell Rathbone

> > Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins

> > Ernie Gerig Marty Mann

> > John Reese Albert Golrick

> > Harry Nash Grenville Curtis

> > Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans

> > Don McClean Oscar Vieths

> > Rowland Jones Bill Cousins

> > Sterling Parker Joe Mina

> > Tom Pierce Jackie Williams


0 -1 0 0
8417 brian koch brian koch Re: Names of the First One Hundred -- Harlan Spencer Names of the First One Hundred -- Harlan Spencer 5/1/2012 12:26:00 PM


Harlan Spencer, AA#28, who some believe is the model for Jim, the milk and

whiskey guy in the big book, is buried in the same cemetery as Dr Bob and Ann

Smith: Mount Peace Cemetery, Akron OH. Section 17, Lot 4, Grave 7.



His obituary does not show him as a car salesman however. It says "He worked as

a salesman here for the Hardware and Supply Co. and later for the Summit

Electric Co ..."


0 -1 0 0
8418 M.J. Johnson M.J. Johnson Re: Names of the First One Hundred -- how many stayed sober? Names of the First One Hundred -- how many stayed sober? 5/1/2012 1:56:00 PM


Is there a document that describes what the outcome was for the first 100? That

is, which stayed sober permanently, which stayed sober after one or more

relapses, and which went back to drinking? I searched the archive and didn't

find anything immediately referenceable ...


0 -1 0 0
8419 pamelafro88 pamelafro88 Re: Winchester cathedral Winchester cathedral 5/1/2012 4:48:00 PM


Recently visited the tombstone with the doggerel at Winchester Cathedral. A

guide confided that "Lots of Alcoholics Anonymous people visit here for some

reason". She obviously didn't recognise yet another pilgrim!


0 -1 0 0
8420 ricktompkins ricktompkins Re: Names of the First One Hundred -- Earl T. in Chicago Names of the First One Hundred -- Earl T. in Chicago 5/1/2012 9:44:00 PM


It seems to me that as this list delineates more locations than NYC, Akron, and

Cleveland, so shouldn't number 35, AA Pioneer Earl T., be listed as Chicago?



Sure, Earl's dad ran a factory in Cuyahoga Falls and Sue Smith worked there, but

Earl quickly returned, after his Akron visits, to Chicago to his life, wife,

and home.



Earl had the dual pioneering blessings of Dr. Bob as a sponsor and Bill W. as an

equal, IMHO.



The post-1939 Chicago Group also kept handwritten charts of its first fifty

members and logged sobriety dates with regular updates (3 mos., 6 mos., number

of slips, etc.).



When there was a blank space the person's membership was in question (such as

returned to drink, address lost, etc.).



I always enjoyed the discovery that these lists generally kept the person's

first, primary sobriety date as the qualifier.



Rick, Illinois



- - - -



Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:29 AM

Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred



> > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY

> > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron

> > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron

> > 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron

> > 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ

> > 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron

> > 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron

> > 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD

. . . . . . . . .

> > 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron


0 -1 0 0
8421 jax760 jax760 Re: Names of the First One Hundred -- Earl T. in Chicago Names of the First One Hundred -- Earl T. in Chicago 5/4/2012 3:26:00 PM


Hi Rick,



I agree with you and have listed that change for Earl to Illinois.



I have never seen a copy of that Chicago list and would love to see it. In

January 1940 Bill polled both Chicago and New Jersey as well as Akron, Cleveland

and NY for the stats to give an update at the Rockefeller Dinner in February of

1940. That is why the these two group rosters were completed in similar fashion,

both in January of 1940.



Contact me directly at Jax760@yahoo.com (Jax760 at yahoo.com) if you can help.


0 -1 0 0
8422 jax760 jax760 Re: First One Hundred - Wallace and Ralph Gilliam First One Hundred - Wallace and Ralph Gilliam 5/4/2012 3:28:00 PM


# 83 was Ralph Gillam - sorry for the smart-fill error.



Regards



- - - -



brian koch wrote:

>

> Wallace Gillam shown twice? #29, and #83. Is it possible to be two of the

first one hundred? split personality?



> > > 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY

> > > 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron

> > > 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron

. . . . . . . . . . . .

> > > 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron

. . . . . . . . . . . .

> > > 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron


0 -1 0 0
8423 firituallyspit firituallyspit Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet 5/4/2012 2:33:00 PM


I moved to Florida recently and was given the job to find a speaker for the

anniversary dinner. Next day, in walks into the intergroup office a quiet

gentleman, Dave J., and I ask him how long has he been sober. He replies, 56

yrs, got sober in Akron. But you might have heard of my father, Larry J. He

moved to Texas and he did some writing.



Well here it is:

http://www.aabibliography.com/larryjewell.htm



Interesting ......



- - - -



Note from Glenn C. the moderator: some people claim that what you have here,

Larry Jewell's articles which were published in the Houston Press in April 1940,

became "the first AA pamphlet."



But the Rev. Dilworth Lupton (pastor of the First Unitarian Church in Cleveland,

Ohio) preached a sermon on November 26, 1939 in which he warmly praised the new

AA movement, shortly after the Akron alcoholics finally declared their

independence from the Oxford Group in October 1939 and quit going to T. Henry

and Clarace Williams’ for the weekly Oxford Group meeting.



Lupton's sermon was reprinted as a pamphlet, called “Mr. X and Alcoholics

Anonymous” (where Mr. X was Clarence Snyder). It was one of the earliest AA

pamphlets and was used for many years by A.A. members in Cleveland to help

describe the AA program to newcomers and to help spread the AA message. It is an

important document because the Alcoholics Anonymous people, regardless of their

own various religious backgrounds, seem to have considered it to be an excellent

statement of their own understanding of what was meant by keeping AA

nonsectarian, which was part of the arrangement which Sister Ignatia worked out

for letting AA have the use of a ward at St. Thomas Hospital for treating new

alcoholics.



The AA people were not going to try to convert everybody in the ward into

becoming members of the Oxford Group, and Sister Ignatia and her nuns were not

going to try to convert them all to Catholicism.


0 -1 0 0
8424 Joseph Adams Joseph Adams Re: Sybil Sybil 5/4/2012 6:21:00 PM


I found one talk from Sybil on xa-speakers.org, available as a free download. It

is from 1985 but they do not know where it was recorded; it could be your

Riverside talk.



http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=462



She also has a talk on the Traditions from the same site.



Joe A.

Raleigh, North Carolina



Sponsor Magazine: free downloads to support 12-Step Recovery

http://sponsormagazine.org


0 -1 0 0
8425 Gary Neidhardt Gary Neidhardt Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 5/1/2012 1:59:00 PM


The Jack Alexander article in the Saturday Evening Post lists sobriety dates by

half-years in Cleveland, Ohio, and also lists them such that people with "one

slip" are listed too in the sorted order with the people who didn't slip. I

think this supports James Bliss's assertion below.

 

Gary



________________________________



From: James Bliss james.bliss@comcast.net >

Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012

Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred



I do not remember where I read it, perhaps on this list, but my understanding

was that in early AA they did not reset their sobriety dates for slips. One

question this concept would raise is what the dividing line is between a slip

and just not getting the program, drinking for several more years and then

returning.



But, that would explain the sobriety date for Dr. Bob being listed as May rather

than June.


0 -1 0 0
8426 B B Re: Gideon Paul Kellogg Gideon Paul Kellogg 5/3/2012 2:45:00 PM


This has been confirmed to be our very own Paul Kellogg, wife Charlotte Augusta

Kellogg, "Gussie". Paul is buried in West View Cemetery, Atlanta, Georgia,

Section 12, Lot 515, Grave #1. I have a map of the cemetery which shows the

section. I have not yet loaded it up to the computer.



"B" wrote:

>

> Friends,

>

> I am wondering if anyone who knows about the pioneers of our fellowship can

tell me if Gideon Paul Kellogg is the same person as Paul Kellogg, known as

AA#34 on the "counted noses" list.

>

> I ask this because evidence points to that. I have seen in the literature that

his wife was "Gussie" Kellogg. When researching Gideon Paul I found his wife is

Charlotte "Augusta" Kellogg (Hedges). Would stand to reason that "Gussie" is

short for Augusta.

>

> Additionally the birthday of GP Kellogg is 20 Jan 1896 which would put him in

the right age bracket, also there are New Jersey references in census results

and his World War II draft card -- specifically, Union New Jersey.


0 -1 0 0
8427 B B Additional pioneers' graves located!! Additional pioneers' graves located!! 5/3/2012 2:55:00 PM


I have found the final resting places for Wallace Gillam (#29, "Fired Again"

from the first edition of the BB), JD Holmes (#17, Newspaperman, credited with

starting AA in Indiana), Dr. Howard Searl (#20), Alvin Borden (#19), Robert

Evans (#23), Harold Grissinger (#10), Franklin Crumrine (notice the spelling is

not Krumrine, #40) and Irvin Nelson (#39). I have cemeteries on all of them, and

am honing in on locations with the help of some wonderful cemetery people. I am

thoroughly enjoying this project. Making inroads with Lester (or Leslie) Earl

Treat, considered the founder of AA in the Chicago Area). Also have located

Clarence Snyder (The Home Brewmeister and Cleveland Founder), T Henry and

Clarace Williams (non AA's who were vital in our early days), Archie Trowbridge

(The Man Who Overcame Fear and the founder of AA in Detroit).


0 -1 0 0
8428 John Barton John Barton Re: First One Hundred - Harlan Spencer - car salesman? or not? First One Hundred - Harlan Spencer - car salesman? or not? 5/3/2012 3:46:00 PM


The Amos List written by Dr Bob shows him as an auto salesman.



- - - -



From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com >

Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012

Subject: Names of the First One Hundred -- Harlan Spencer



Harlan Spencer, AA#28, who some believe is the model for Jim, the milk and

whiskey guy in the big book, is buried in the same cemetery as Dr Bob and Ann

Smith: Mount Peace Cemetery, Akron OH. Section 17, Lot 4, Grave 7.



His obituary does not show him as a car salesman however. It says "He worked as

a salesman here for the Hardware and Supply Co. and later for the Summit

Electric Co ..."


0 -1 0 0
8429 brian koch brian koch Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson 5/1/2012 2:42:00 PM


Not doing an ad for Amazon, but it is available at a savings for pre-order

there. Looks like a great read.


0 -1 0 0
8430 Dan Dan Re: One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Structure One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Structure 5/4/2012 9:26:00 AM


I could have sworn I heard Bill say this on a cassette tape called Bill on the

12 Traditions, although it has been a long time since I listened to it. I still

have the tape which I had obtained from GSO. The label on the tape simply says:



========================================

Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc



Bill on 12 Traditions



(Side 1)

(Side 2)

========================================



Dan Roe

Chicago



________________________________________________



Message #8412 from Denez McD denezmcd@aol.com >



One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Structure



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8412


0 -1 0 0
8431 pamelafro88 pamelafro88 Re: Winchester cathedral Winchester cathedral 5/4/2012 10:25:00 AM


Did you know that the tombstone is not actually the one Bill saw - it has been

replaced twice, the latest time in the 60's I believe after vandalism. The

wording is somewhat different too than that in the BB.

It says



"Here sleeps in peace and Hampshire Grenadier

Who caught his death by drinking cold small beer

Soldiers be wise from his untimely fall

And when ye're hot drink strong or not all"



Whether it has been altered in the reconstruction, or Bill used poetic license

or had a faulty memory, who knows?



By the way, the guide at the Cathedral said that even children drank 'small

beer' as it was somewhat safer than the local water supply. It was only mildly

alcoholic. She also said that the Grenadier's death is said to be from the

effects of drinking a cold beer after just having completed a grueling march,

and being overheated.



- - - -



From Glenn C. the moderator: Bill W. was trying to quote the poem from memory,

and didn't get it quite right.


0 -1 0 0
8432 corafinch corafinch Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson 5/2/2012 7:30:00 AM


The same author covered some of the same ground in an earlier book, The Harvard

Psychedelic Club: How Timothy Leary, Ram Dass, Huston Smith and Andrew Weil

Killed the Fifties and Ushered in a New Age for America.



That one is available at good prices from used book sites, and some libraries

have it.



Although the men in the subtitle are the primary focus, Huxley and Heard figure

prominently and there is some material on Wilson.


0 -1 0 0
8433 John Steeves John Steeves RE: Winchester cathedral -- Einstein on cosmic religious feeling Winchester cathedral -- Einstein on cosmic religious feeling 5/3/2012 3:53:00 PM


Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish.



Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)


0 -1 0 0
8434 jm48301@aol.com jm48301@a... Re: One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Str... One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service Str... 5/3/2012 2:50:00 PM


From http://www.aaworkshop.org/as-bill-sees-it.php



A.A.: Benign Anarchy and Democracy



When we come into A.A. we find a greater personal freedom than any other

society knows. We cannot be compelled to do anything. In that sense our Society

is a benign anarchy. The word "anarchy" has a bad meaning to most of us. But I

think that the idealist who first advocated the concept felt that if only men

were granted absolute liberty, and were compelled to obey no one, they would

then voluntarily associate themselves in the common interest. A.A. is an

association of the benign sort he envisioned.



But when we had to go into action -- to function as groups -- we

discovered that we also had to become a democracy. As our oldtimers retired, we

therefore began to elect our trusted servants by majority vote. Each group in

this sense became a town meeting. All plans for group action had to be approved

by the majority. This meant that no single individual could appoint himself to

act for his group or for A.A. as a whole. Neither dictatorship nor paternalism

was for us.



A.A. COMES OF AGE, pp. 224-225



_____________________________________________



In a message dated 5/3/2012 2:35:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

denezmcd@aol.com writes:



Please help my friend Dennis McD get the answer to his question:



====================

From: gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net

(gratefuldennis at sbcglobal.net)



When Bill was running around promoting the General Service Structure in one of

his talks he mentioned how we need to move from a benign anarchy to a majority

ruled democracy. I lost this when my computer crashed recently so does anyone

know about this talk and where I can get a hold of a copy. If anyone is on AA

History Lovers perhaps they can find out.



Thank you;



Dennis M.

====================


0 -1 0 0
8435 John Barton John Barton Re: Additional pioneers' graves located!! Additional pioneers' graves located!! 5/5/2012 6:27:00 AM


Thank you for the correct spelling of Frank Crumrine. I recall Jared and I

debating this some time back. The Amos list had him with a "K" and the Cleveland

list had him with a "C." Whenever there has been a spelling conflict I have

tended to give Dr Bob the benefit of the doubt.

 

God Bless,

 

John B



- - - -



From: B kochbrian@hotmail.com >

Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012

Subject: Additional pioneers' graves located!!



I have found the final resting places for ... Franklin Crumrine (notice the

spelling is not Krumrine, #40) .... I have cemeteries on all of them, and am

honing in on locations with the help of some wonderful cemetery people.


0 -1 0 0
8436 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Re: One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service... One of Bill W's talks proposing the General Service... 5/5/2012 8:04:00 AM


I had mentioned that the statement "Neither dictatorship nor paternalism was

for us" did not seem to be on page 224-225. It seems it is an added statement

and not part of the referenced quote.



- - - -



jm48301@aol.com writes:



From http://www.aaworkshop.org/as-bill-sees-it.php



Neither dictatorship nor paternalism was for us.



A.A. COMES OF AGE, pp. 224-225


0 -1 0 0
8437 momaria33772 momaria33772 We have lost another piece of history: Ruth O'Neil We have lost another piece of history: Ruth O'Neil 5/6/2012


Ruth O'Neil passed away on Sunday April 22, 2012. She was 97 years old & had

just celebrated 68 years of sobriety on April 14. Sober since 1944, It is

possible Ruth had the longest living sobriety of any woman or man at the time of

her death.



Ruth was a wonderful power of example in all that she did. She loved to laugh,

to eat, to sing & dance, to speak at meetings & she loved her chocolate! She was

a wonderful friend & a great sponsor. We will surely miss you, Ruthie !



1n 1995 at the International in San Diego at the longtimers meeting, the crowds

went wild begging for additional time allowance after she was "Gonged". Her

talks were a great wealth of history.


0 -1 0 0
8438 rsmith77379 rsmith77379 Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet 5/5/2012 6:31:00 PM


Houston Intergroup recently ran a series of articles on "How AA Came to Houston"

which, of course, prominently featured Larry J. Shortly afterward, I also had

the pleasure of hearing from Dave J. If anyone is interested, I can upload

links to the articles.



In our files (available from the archives in NY) are copies of letters between

Bill W. and Larry J. which discuss the articles that Larry wrote for the Houston

Press. Bill W. requested permission to reprint them in a pamphlet form.



I think that the slight differentiation here -- which was the first pamphlet,

this one which was based on the Houston Post articles,

or the "Mr. X and Alcoholics Anonymous" pamphlet in Cleveland? -- is that the

Houston pamphlet became the first thing published by New York after the Big

Book.


0 -1 0 0
8439 Karla Karla Bill and Lois's apartment - 38 Livingston St., Brooklyn Bill and Lois's apartment - 38 Livingston St., Brooklyn 5/6/2012 6:48:00 PM


What floor did Bill and Lois live on at their 38 Livingston St address?



- - - -



Note from G.C. the moderator: for the historical context see

Arthur S., Narrative Timeline of AA History

http://silkworth.net/aafiles/timelines_public.html



Summer 1927, Bill W and Lois went to Cuba to investigate the Cuban Sugar Co. in

Havana. Bill’s drinking created many problems and he accomplished little.



On returning to NY, Bill W and Lois rented a three-room apartment at 38

Livingston St in Brooklyn. Not big enough for Bill’s desires, he enlarged it by

renting the apartment next door and knocking out the walls between them. (BW-RT

144, LR 71, PIO 80-81)



1929: Oct 29 (black Tuesday) the Stock Market collapsed .... Bill’s friend, Dick

Johnson, offered him a job in Montreal with Greenshields and Co. By Christmas

the Wilsons were in Canada (BW-RT 152-154, LOH 367, LR 81, PIO 85-86, RAA

148-149, BW-FH 44-46)


0 -1 0 0
8440 Jayson D Jones MA, MARE, LCDC Jayson D Jones MA, MARE, LCDC Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet 5/7/2012 9:08:00 AM


I am actually looking for high resolution copies of the Larry Jewel letters for

the South East Texas Area archives which covers all of the Houston area.



I have copies of copies of copies, and some lower resolution copies from

Arthur S. of North East Texas Area archives.



Can anyone assist me with this? I have tried e-mailing the archives in New York,

but have received no response. Any help would be appreciated.



Jayson J

Katy, Texas

Work: (281) 400-3643

E-mail: jjones@tota-texas.org

(jjones at tota-texas.org)

Cell: (281) 435-0227


0 -1 0 0
8441 MattD MattD Bible passages that some of AA's early friends liked Bible passages that some of AA's early friends liked 5/7/2012 9:51:00 AM


AAHL,



I had a question for the group about Bible passages that were found useful by

some of AA's early friends. Here's what was compiled by Tom P. — early AA member

and who was the main editor of our fellowship's first AA history book: AACOA.

Tom knew all the men below personally (with the exception of Buchman) and

compiled this list of Bible passages that some of AA's early friends found

helpful. (Although, Tom did know men who knew Buchman — such as Shoemaker.)

Anyway, much has been published here and there about these early friends and I

am wondering if the following info can be verified? Or added to:



Dr. Bob & Bill W., as we all know, recommended:



the Sermon on the Mount, 1 Corinthians 13, and Epistle of James





Frank Buchman found the following particularly useful:



Psalm 23, 32, 103, 121, John 17, and II Timothy 2





Father Dowling found the following particularly useful:



John 19:25-27





Dr. Tiebout found the following particularly useful:



Psalm 1, 23 Proverbs 1:2-7





Dr. Silkworth found the following particularly useful:



II Kings 6:8-17





Father Shoemaker found the following particularly useful:



John 17:1-26 and 19:25-27


0 -1 0 0
8442 aliasjb aliasjb One Alcoholic Talking to Another One Alcoholic Talking to Another 5/7/2012 4:25:00 PM


This gets quoted as part of an AA program of recovery. When and where does it

first appear in print? (I see it in the forward to the 3rd Edition, but that

wasn't written until 1976).


0 -1 0 0
8443 Charlie Parker Charlie Parker Using written notes when speaking to an AA group Using written notes when speaking to an AA group 5/8/2012 9:39:00 AM


I have heard about a quote from an old pamphlet that basically said that "if one

is giving a long talk that one should take notes in order to be concise and to

not waste peoples time". Words to that effect anyway that at least addressed

using notes at a podium. Has anybody seen this or know where it came from?



Charlie P.

Austin


0 -1 0 0
8444 Paul Paul Re: Winchester cathedral - ref. to Paul Tillich, Reinhold Niebuhr Winchester cathedral - ref. to Paul Tillich, Reinhold Niebuhr 5/7/2012 11:01:00 PM


For those lacking background on "PAUL TILLICH, REINHOLD NIEBUHR" et. al., the

following snippet (pp 31-35) from *Introduction to Psychology, Religion, and

Spirituality,* 2009, might be of benefit as it closes with a brief explication

of Niebuhr's views on both literal altruism and a convenient recapitulation of

Tillich's take on finitude or "not-God-ness" (for lack of a better expression).

Thankfully, EK and/or GC indicated to me in an earlier post that the title of

N-G probably derived from one of these. Again, no one suspected it came from the

AA vernacular, "There is a God, and you're not Him," else he'd have said so

expressly. Based upon what appears below, which I encountered for the first time

about 15 minutes ago, all I can say now is I'm a firm believer - with an eye to

the roots AND the fruits. Why not have your cake and eat it to? "Bringing it all

back home," so to speak...Kurtz's section called "Main Deep Point," in his

article "Spirituality of William James" (1999) apparently also leans heavily on

Niebuhr but not Reinhold; this time RICHARD NIEBUHR, author of "William James on

Religious Experience," [Chapter 11; see p 220] contained in *The Cambridge

Companion to William James,* (1997, digital 2005).



~ ~ ~



1.5 Religious and Theological Responses to Psychology



During the early part of the 20th century the theological response to scientific

psychology was muted. Protestant Christian theology was heavily influenced by

the neo-orthodox position of Karl Barth (1886–1968), who believed that theology

should be based totally upon "the Word of God" rather than human experience or

psychological theory. Protestant dialogue during this period was mostly carried

out in the context of the pastoral counseling and theology movements. In Roman

Catholicism, the situation was somewhat different. Early Catholic psychologists

like Edward Pace (1861–1938) and Thomas Verner Moore (1877–1969) were ordained

priests with substantial training in theology and a commitment to working as

psychologists within the Catholic context. While this situation was more

favorable for dialogue, there was often opposition by suspicious members of the

Catholic hierarchy (Gillespie, 2001). However, by mid-century more Protestant

writers had begun to join the dialogue. Especially noteworthy are Paul Tillich

(1886–1965) and Reinhold Niebuhr (1892–1971).



32

1.5.1 Paul Tillich

Theological responses to psychology are influenced not only by the individual

views of the theologian toward psychology but also by their theological stance.

Tillich adopted an apologetic approach to theology that began with human

experience and tried to make the Christian message appealing to contemporary

thinkers, rather than a kerygmatic stance (e.g., Karl Barth) that gives priority

to the basic Christian message (Cooper, 2006, p. 196). Tillich called his

apologetic approach the "method of correlation" (1951, pp. 60–63). He analyzed

the human situation using materials from contemporary thought and then

reinterpreted Christian theology to show how the Christian message provided

answers to modern questions (1957, pp. 28, 239). His method was dialectical, and

he tended to avoid the approach of later writers who wanted to critically

evaluate the positions taken by secular and scientific writers (1963a, p. 51;

Tracy, 1975, p. 46). He used two primary tools in building his system—the

existential philosophy of writers like Soren Kierkegaard or Martin Heidegger,

and the insights of psychoanalysis.



1.5.1.1 Tillich and the Human Existential Situation

Existentialism tries to understand the human person by looking at their

connection to the ultimate characteristics of existence like freedom (we all

have the power to make choices and change or transcend our situation) and

finitude (we always work within limitations and eventually will die). Religion

for him was intimately connected to these ultimate concerns and our attempts at

self-transcendence, a focus shared with humanistic psychology (1963b, p. 107;

Maslow, 1964, p. 45). In his theology, Tillich emphasized the transcendence of

an infinitely free God who is not only the ground of all nature but beyond it as

well. Tillich argued that this dialectic between nature and freedom is also

repeated in our human situation. We are part of the natural world and thus

finite, but we also transcend the natural world because we possess a finite

version of God's infinite freedom. The tension between these forms the basis of

what Tillich called an "existential gap" or existential situation. The dialectic

between the constraints of existence and nature and our essential freedom is

"the condition for man's religious existence" (1957, p. 10). The transcending

possibility of spirit and freedom means that religion cannot be reduced to

psychological dynamics or moral self-integration (1963b, pp. 118, 192).



1.5.1.2 Tillich and Depth Psychology

Tillich used psychoanalysis to help articulate the psychological dynamics

involved in dealing with ultimate concerns. An individual who is able to stand

at the balance point between the demands of existence and their essence as a

free person he referred to as "centered" (1957, p. 60). He saw this state of

balance or self integration as the goal of a healthy life. However, Tillich

argued that this ideal



33

balance can never be realized because we are finite and unable to assimilate the

many conflicting demands of existence. The result of this lack of balance is

confusion, self-alienation, and meaninglessness, leaving us at the mercy of

internal compulsions and external demands. It is our awareness of this situation

of finitude, lack of meaning and helplessness that leads to ontological anxiety,

a basic tension that is built into existence and must be accepted. This anxiety

is different from neurotic anxiety that is caused by psychological problems and

is open to psychological help (1957, p. 34; 2000; Cooper, 2006, pp. 37–52).

Fleeing from ontological anxiety creates neurotic anxiety and irrational or

unreasonable fears that tie up the person with inner conflicts. However, through

the religious life and support of a spiritual community, people could embrace a

capacity for transcendence and by making appropriate "moral" choices develop a

genuine sense of identity (1963b). Science, on the other hand, is unable to

understand or help with ontological anxiety because it detaches existence from

transcendence and tries to explain and control everything on a purely natural

basis. Perhaps in part because of his correlational method and his own personal

experience with traumatic anxiety as a chaplain during World War I, Tillich was

quite open to the basic findings of psychoanalysis such as the existence and

power of unconscious motives and their impact on some religious activities, as

well as the problem of guilt and the need for acceptance (1957, p. 177; 1963b;

Cooper, 2006, p. 41). He appreciated and accepted Freud's work, although he

observed that it had limitations because it ignored our existential situation

and our essential nature as free persons. Not surprisingly, Tillich also

rejected Freud's apparent position of total psychological or biological

determinism (1957, pp. 54, 66). He was more ambivalent toward behaviorism; for

instance, he rejected the idea that life processes are oriented toward the

pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain because hedonistic views ignored the

presence of other forces like creativity (1963b, p. 56).



1.5.1.3 Tillich, Fromm and Rogers

Terry Cooper (2006) notes that there are a number of interesting points of

agreement and disagreement between Tillich and humanists like Fromm and Rogers.

Tillich and Fromm had a long acquaintance that went back to their days in

Germany; both were influenced by Marx and Freud, but they had many disagreements

as well. Tillich agreed with Fromm that selfishness and self-hate rather than

self-love are the basic human problems. However, Tillich saw that these problems

could not be solved apart from God, while Fromm wanted to eliminate God talk

from the conversation altogether. Fromm thought that we have tendencies toward

both good and evil and can choose good, overcoming our problems without help.

Tillich believed our estrangement was too great for self-solution and that we

had a need to wait for help, a passivity that was offensive to Fromm. Tillich

and the humanistic psychologist Carl Rogers also had some areas of agreement in

addition to their differences. Rogers and Tillich both saw inner conflict or

self estrangement as a basic human problem, but they had different ideas about

the nature



34

of estrangement and how acceptance helps. Rogers saw self-estrangement as an

incongruence between our true self and societal expectations or pressures that

thwart our drive toward growth. His answer to this was an experience of

unconditional positive regard by a therapist or other person who sets aside

their values and is nonjudgmental. Tillich, on the other hand, argued that

estrangement is ultimately built into existence, so we need more than human

sources of acceptance (Cooper, 2006, p. 5). Tillich also rejected the claim made

by Rogers that psychotherapy can and should be value free. In Tillich's view,

any relationship — including the therapeutic relationship — involves a

commitment to some kind of values. Cooper argues that Rogers viewed himself as

making psychological claims but that actually his theory reveals many hidden

theological or ontological assumptions that go beyond "scientific psychology."

While Tillich was extremely influential in the psychology and religion dialogue

during the 1950s through the 1970s, he is less so today as his existential

approach is not central to contemporary discussions (Polkinghorne, 2004, p. 51).

Tillich tended to describe highly personal encounters with abstract concepts

that are seemingly removed from qualities of personal care and love. Fromm even

questioned whether Tillich's thought really represented an authentic statement

of the Christian faith (Cooper, 2006). Nevertheless an understanding of his work

is vital in the study of

the psychology and religion dialogue.



1.5.2 Reinold Niebuhr

Another prominent 20th-century theologian and participant in the dialogue was

Reinold Niebuhr (1955; 1996a,b), who produced some interesting theological

perspectives on Freud. While Niebuhr approved of some of Freud's positions such

as his vision of human complexity, he had a number of criticisms of Freud,

including his denial of transcendence and freedom.



1.5.2.1 Niebuhr's View of the Human Person

Niebuhr believed that each of us is finite and thus bound by the laws of nature,

but at the same time we are free and able to transcend our situation; we are "a

unity of finiteness and freedom, of involvement in natural processes and

transcendence over process" (1996b, p. 113). This self-transcendence is evident

in the way that our natural impulses run beyond the bounds of nature, while

nonhuman animals are restrained by natural instinct. This contradiction between

finiteness and freedom or transcendence is the occasion—but not the cause—for

many human problems. "This essential homelessness of the human spirit is the

ground of religion; for the self which stands outside itself and the world

cannot find the meaning of life in itself or the world" (1996a, p. 14). In

Niebuhr's view, the tension between our two natures has important consequences.

It causes anxiety, which can be a source of creativity or a motivation to hide

our finiteness and freedom. When we avoid our finiteness, we ignore our



35

limitations, leading us to overestimate ourselves as individuals or as a race.

This can lead to arrogance and fanaticism, either in rationality or religion.

Avoidance of our freedom is also problematic, for it blinds us to human

potentials such as the possibility for true altruism. It also hides from us the

possibility that freedom has both creative and evil possibilities and so can be

misused. Contemporary history is full of evidence of the potential for evil in

modern systems of warfare, power, and economics, but we still deny this evil

potential, supposing that somehow these problems are just due to ignorance, not

enough science, or social forces which we are about to overcome, rather than

seeing our poor choices. Remorse and repentance (as opposed to simple

psychological guilt) are thus in some sense religious experiences, because they

show an awareness of our situation of finiteness before God.



~ ~ ~



Best,

Paul



_____________________________________________





Glenn Chesnut wrote:



> EINSTEIN AND PAUL TILLICH

>

> See Glenn F. Chesnut, God and Spirituality, Chapter 11, "Tillich and Einstein"

>

> Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr were the two most famous theologians at

Union Theological Seminary in New York City. In Tillich's counter article to

Einstein's piece, he agreed with Einstein that the idea of a personal God was an

outmoded myth. The real Higher Power was an impersonal absolute (which Tillich

called "the ground of being"). But Tillich argued that personalistic language

was very valuable in talking about our relationship to this Higher Power, as

long as we remembered that this image of a personal God watching out for us was

metaphorical and symbolic only. It was only a sign post pointing to a higher

reality, where that higher reality was a completely impersonal and indescribable

abyss of non-being, which could give us the gift of new being when our old lives

had collapsed into ruins, but which would swallow us up into non-being at the

end of our lives.

>

> It is true that Father Samuel Moor Shoemaker III, rector of Calvary Episcopal

Church from 1928 to 1952, and the American leader of the Oxford Group during the

1930's (continuing until he broke with the Oxford Group in 1941), was a figure

known to everyone in the theological world of New York City.

>

> But it was people like PAUL TILLICH, REINHOLD NIEBUHR, EMMET FOX, and HARRY

EMERSON FOSDICK who were more typical of the general theological spirit of the

city during the period when Alcoholics Anonymous was being formed.


0 -1 0 0
8445 Paul Paul Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson 5/3/2012 4:29:00 PM


ALDOUS HUXLEY (1894-1963), THE PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY (1945):



The Perennial Philosophy is available for free download here -

http://knowledgefiles.com/categories/religions/the-perennial-philosophy/



I read Brave New World and The Doors of Perception but that was over two decades

ago and no one was recommending The Perennial Philosophy. Or maybe they were and

I wasn't paying close enough attention.



===========================================



FRITHJOF SCHUON (1907-1998), THE TRANSCENDENT UNITY OF RELIGIONS (1953):



Yesterday I stumbled upon

http://ojs-prod.library.usyd.edu.au/index.php/SSR/issue/archive

which is the main archival page of the open source Sydney Studies in Religion.



Once you get there, the "Heart of the Religio Perennis: Frithjof Schuon on

Esotericism" makes comparisons between Huxley's "popular" perennialism and

Schuon's "traditional" version discussed at

http://ojs-prod.library.usyd.edu.au/index.php/SSR/article/view/275/254

in the *Esotericism and the Control of Knowledge* edition.



The 34 page article just listed says: "Schuon's published work forms an imposing

corpus and covers a staggering range of religious and metaphysical subjects

without any of the superficialities and simplifications that we normally expect

from someone covering such a vast territory. His works on specific religious

traditions have commanded respect from scholars and practitioners within the

traditions in question. As well as publishing over twenty books he was a

prolific contributor to journals such as Etudes Traditionnelles, Islamic

Quarterly, Tomorrow, Studies in Comparative Religion and Sophia Perennis. All of

his major works, written in French, have now been published in English. Schuon's

writings are governed by an unchanging set of metaphysical principles. They

exhibit nothing of a 'development' or 'evolution' but are, rather, re-statements

of the same principles from different vantage points and brought to bear on

divergent phenomena. His work is concerned with the re-affirmation of

traditional metaphysical principles, with an explication of the esoteric

dimensions of religion, with the penetration of mythological and religious

forms, and with the critique of a modernism that is indifferent (or openly

hostile) to the principles which inform all traditional wisdoms. His general

position was defined in his first book to appear in English, The Transcendent

Unity of Religions (1953), of which T.S. Eliot remarked, 'I have met with no

more impressive work on the comparative study of Oriental and Occidental

religion'"



Best,

Paul


0 -1 0 0
8446 Gary Neidhardt Gary Neidhardt Re: Using written notes when speaking to an AA group Using written notes when speaking to an AA group 5/8/2012 4:56:00 PM


From the A.A. Speakers Manual, published by the Akron Intergroup, available

today in reprint form from which I'm quoting the following:



"Your talk deserves the best effort you can put into it. Anything having to do

with sobriety deserves nothing but the best. You can avoid the embarrassment of

stumbling around groping for words and ideas if you will use the forethought of

preparation. This does not mean sit down and write out a speech. But organize

your subject matter beforehand if you have any doubts as to your memory and

remember, you may experience stage fright - prepare written notes. After

preparing them, follow them closely or you may get off on a tangent, find

yourself in a thicket of verbage, and have difficulty in finding your way back

into your notes. Remember, you owe your audience some consideration. To speak

before a group with no preparation is an insult to their intelligence."



and the pamphet continues:



"BE BRIEF



There is a saying among mondern clergymen: 'No soul is saved after the first

twenty minutes.' The two hour, yes, even the one hour sermon is a thing iof the

past. In almost all cases effectiveness is lost after thirty minutes. After the

first half hour the average listener starts to wonder when the speaker will come

to a climax and stop talking. His mind wanders, and what good the leader has

done in his first half hour immediatley comes undone. The longer he continues to

talk, the less his listener will remember when it is all over. Remember,

alcoholics are restless people. They squirmed at sermons, twitched at movies,

avoided long plays and concerts, almost never attended lectures. Demosthenes

himself could not hold an alcoholic audience for more than half an hour. Don't

flatter yourself by thinking you can. If you don't own a watch, borrow one and

keep an eagle eye on it. When your half hour is running out, come to a speedy

conclusion. Your audience will be profoundly grateful."

 

No wonder lead meetings in Akron don't have a lead last more than a half an

hour!

 

And I must confess to squirming, twitching, avoiding, and having my mind wander

during an

 

 


0 -1 0 0
8447 B B William Jones -- aka Bill J William Jones -- aka Bill J 5/8/2012 2:24:00 PM


I am looking for some difinitive info on William Jones, aka Bill J in the Pass

It On book. specifically, if his middle name is Bevan, what his wife's name was,

specific birthdate .... I have found a William Bevan Jones that matches

timeline-wise, and location wise. Just trying to check it 100%. Thanks



- - - -



From G.C. the moderator: Silkworth.net lists two people by that name



http://silkworth.net/aahistory_names/namesb.html



Bill J. - early Akron A.A., salesman, slipped in Cincinnati, (Dr. Bob and the

Good Oldtimers page 119)



Bill J. - Cleveland banker (probably bank teller), received requests for help

from AA in Cleveland, stayed with Oxford Group when Cleveland group split off

(Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers pages 167, 204, 218)



Also see:



http://hindsfoot.org/amostype.pdf



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/6640



http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/2764


0 -1 0 0
8448 J.BARRY Murtaugh J.BARRY Murtaugh Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson 5/8/2012 6:32:00 PM


I couldn't find presale on Amazon.

Hot link went to Un of Cal. press

Got mine in.

Amazon will no doubt sell it for $8.95 out of the chute.

Oh well! Authors deserve their just pay.

University of California Press Order ConfirmationQUANTITY

TITLEAVAILABILITYUNIT PRICE

PRICE 1Distilled Spirits

Getting High, Then Sober, with a Famous Writer, a Forgotten Philosopher,

and a Hopeless Drunk

Cloth - ISBN: 9780520272323 Forthcoming, expected to ship on Sep 2 2012.

$29.95 $29.95



Best Regards,

J.Barry Murtaugh

Court Maroon, Ltd.

773-851-2100



- - - -



On Tue, May 1, 2012, brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com > wrote:

>

> Not doing an ad for Amazon, but it is available at a savings for pre-order

there. Looks like a great read.


0 -1 0 0
8449 dicklunsford dicklunsford The Therapeutic Value of the Twelve Steps of AA The Therapeutic Value of the Twelve Steps of AA 5/8/2012 7:17:00 PM


This is the title of a pamphlet written by Dr Edward J Delahanty, MD and

published by the Utah Alcoholism Foundation. There'no date on the copy we have

here. Can anyone tell me

- the date it was published?

- Was it conference approved?

- How widely was it used?



Thanks,

Dick


0 -1 0 0
8450 brian koch brian koch Re: Using written notes when speaking to an AA group Using written notes when speaking to an AA group 5/9/2012 9:20:00 AM


This pamphlet is available for purchase from their website.



- - - -



From: morningmael@yahoo.com

Date: Tue, 8 May 2012



From the A.A. Speakers Manual, published by the Akron Intergroup, available

today in reprint form from which I'm quoting the following:



"Your talk deserves the best effort you can put into it .... You can avoid the

embarrassment of stumbling around groping for words and ideas if you will use

the forethought of preparation .... prepare written notes ...."


0 -1 0 0
8451 brian koch brian koch Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson 5/9/2012 2:00:00 PM


Pre order on amazon link:



http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/189-3727888-0508643?url=search-alias%3Dap\

s&field-keywords=Getting+High%2C+Then+Sober%2C+with+a+Famous+Writer%2C+a+Forgott\

en+Philosopher%2C




- - - -



From: murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com

Date: Tue, 8 May 2012

Subject: Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson



I couldn't find presale on Amazon.


0 -1 0 0
8452 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst RE: Names of the First One Hundred -- Bill A. Names of the First One Hundred -- Bill A. 5/1/2012 7:30:00 PM


From Chuck Parkhurst, bobhickey674, and John Barton (jax760)



- - - -



Does all the hub-bub I have seen on AAHL change the list below

and if so where does this Bill A guy belong now?



- - - -



From: "bobhickey674" bobhickey674@yahoo.com >

(bobhickey674 at yahoo.com)



I'm looking for information on Bill Ames who got sober in 1938. He and Fitz

would ride the train together to NY.



- - - -



Message #8403 from John Barton jax760@yahoo.com>

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



So here is what I had on Bill A. and thanks to Jared for helping me with the

last name. The info below in italics is from the Timelines of the First 25 AA

Groups.



What do you have to support a 38 SOB date for Bill Ames? Do you have something

with Fitz's name attached to it or a letter or recording from Bill A stating his

SOB? If so I'd be happy to add him to the list but we need a sufficient piece of

evidence to support this. Pass It On has Hardin C. and Bill (A.) joining with

Fitz in 1940. The story from Donald Graham as detailed in Nancy's Bio of Fitz

comes from Graham's recollection many years later and can not by itself be

considered authoritative.



A.A. Group # 10 Washington D.C.



At first he (Fitz) met with minimal success, but by the fall of 1939 the nucleus

of a small group had been established in Washington. He had been long a loner in

Washington, but Fitz was eventually joined by Hardin C. and Bill A.[note 2] and

was also joined by Florence Rankin



Note 2. When Bill Wilson died in 1971, Donald E. Graham, now the publisher of

The Washington Post, but then a young man learning the family business from the

ground up, and working as a staff writer, interviewed me. Graham's story says in

part: "Bill A., an Arlington businessman, recalled that in December 1939, when

Alcoholics Anonymous was a small, little known group, he went to New York to

meet Mr. Wilson. The next month Mr. Wilson helped start an AA chapter here, the

fourth in the country."



From the Biography of Fitz M. by Nancy O.



John Barton's Comments: Based on the comments of Bill A. this group (Washington

D.C.) would be December of 1939. Arrival of Ned Foote supports this. However,

actual start of Group may have been January of 1940. See PIO p.257 N2 Washington

Intergroup History lists date as October 28, 1939 but this is in variance with

PIO. In lieu of discrepancy we list this group as the first group of December

1939.



- - - -



Message #8397 from jax760@yahoo.com>

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



Re: Names of the First One Hundred



Hi Bob,



So who is Bill Ames of Virginia and how did he get sober in 1938? Who from the

list of 89 pioneers (sober through 12/39) carried the message to him and in what

fashion is that documented?



Since I have never read of or heard of Bill Ames in any AA History before I

would love to hear more.



Thanks and God Bless



- - - -



Message #8395 from bobhickey674@yahoo.com>

(bobhickey674 at yahoo.com)



Re: Names of the First One Hundred



I checked out your list and you seem to have missed Bill Ames of Virginia who

got sober in 1938



______________________________________________



-----Original Message-----

From: John Barton

Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011

Subject: Names of the First One Hundred



Fellow History Lovers,



Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have

been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of

1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained

elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members

produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA

literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work

of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other

known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of

Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The

Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as

possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's

"spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr

Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in

The Golden Road)



Are there many more names that should be on this list? I suspect the answer

is yes! I have no info on new members in Akron for the first few months of

1939 and no doubt there were several, perhaps many! More research is

required at a future date.



Were there "One Hundred Men and Women" on or before the book was published

April 10,1939? Bill wrote many many times to different people that there

were and the available evidence seems to support this. Many historians and

authors who counted less than 100 previously might not have had access to

all the lists including the Amos List (for example compare to Pioneer by

Date of Sobriety List). Others may have followed statements made by some

pioneers like Jimmy Burwell who said Bill rounded up or exaggerated the

claim. Was Jimmy well informed? Did he know who all the Akron/Cleveland

members were? Not all of his recorded AA history (memoirs) have proved

accurate. Perhaps we've been wrong all along in saying there were only 60 to

70? Was everyone on this list still sober or with the fellowship in April of

1939? Probably not but then as noted above there were probably many new

members who were not properly documented or remain truly anonymous to us

till this day. So perhaps there actually was "One Hundred Men and Women" who

were staying sober by following the outlined program when the book came out.



I would love to hear if anybody can contribute information on any of the

less well know names on this list or any other sources which can be used to

prove or disprove the validity or the placement of a name on this list. Does

anyone believe a name has been missed? Many believe Ebby should have been

included. People like Wes, Eddie, and Russ eventually sobered up, should

they be included? Cebra later joined AA in Paris. How about Don, the Cohoes

banker who was sober in 36 but then seems to have faded off? Do you have any

reasonable evidence to support your claim? Please let me know your comments!



PS If anyone can provide me the last name for Gordon S. or Brooke B. both

believed to be from New York Group before 1939 I would be forever in your

debt!

 

1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY

2 Bob Smith May35 Akron

3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron

4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron

5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ

6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron

7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron

8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD

9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT

10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron

11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron

12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron

13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY

14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland

15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland

16 Harry Latta            Jul-36 Akron

17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron

18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron

19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron

20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron

21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ

22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ

23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron

24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron

25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland

26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron

27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron

28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron

29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron

30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland

31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland

32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron

33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron

34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ

35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron

36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron

37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ

38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron

39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron

40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron

41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron

42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ

43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron

44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron

45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron

46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron

47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY

48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron

49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron

50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron

51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron

52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron

53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron

54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron

55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron

56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron

57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron

58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron

59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron

60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY

61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland

62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland

63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY

64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY

65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT

66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY

67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY

68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron

69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY

70 Robert Taylor May38 NY

71 George Williams Jun-38 NY

72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ

73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA

74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY

75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI

76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY

77 James Scott Sep38 Akron

78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron

79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland

80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland

81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY

82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland

83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron

84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron

85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ

86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron

87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ

88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ

89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY

90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ

91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA

92 William Worton Feb39 NY

93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY

94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ

95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ

96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ

97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ

98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ

99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ

100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ



Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers Edwin

Thacher Rowland Hazard Brooke B Shep Cornell Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves Alec

Johnson Ned Foote Gordon S. Russell Rathbone Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins Ernie

Gerig Marty Mann John Reese Albert Golrick Harry Nash Grenville Curtis

Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans Don McClean Oscar Vieths Rowland Jones Bill

Cousins Sterling Parker Joe Mina Tom Pierce      Jackie Williams


0 -1 0 0
8453 Bill Lash Bill Lash RE: We have lost another piece of history: Ruth O'Neil We have lost another piece of history: Ruth O'Neil 5/7/2012 8:22:00 AM


From Bill Lash, CloydG, and Corey Franks



- - - -



From: Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net>

(barefootbill at optonline.net)



Within a few months after Ruth got sober, at a meeting in Brooklyn NY, she was

given a business card by another AA member. On one side of the card was the

Four Absolutes of the Oxford Group (Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness,

Absolute Love, and Absolute Purity) and on the other side of the card was the

following prayer. She recited it daily and shared it when she spoke. It has

come to be known as "Ruth's Prayer":



Thank You, dear God, for another day,

The chance to live in a decent way,

To feel again the joy of living

and happiness that comes from giving.

Thank You for friends who can understand

and the peace that flows from Your loving hand.

Help me to wake with the morning sun,

With the prayer today, "Thy will be done."

For with Your help I will find the way.

Thank You again, dear God, for AA.



- - - -



From: "CloydG" cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>

(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)



My name is Clyde and I'm an alcoholic,



I was there in 95 in San Diego, I was 90 days sober back then, and I was one of

those who was screaming to let her finish her story. I have often wondered what

she would have said had she been given the time to finish it. If there is a talk

that she ever gave that expressed her thoughts on that momentous day, I'd love

to hear to hear it! Ruthie will be sorely missed!



With love and in service, Clyde G.



- - - -



From: Corey Franks erb2b@yahoo.com>

(erb2b at yahoo.com)



HI. . She was also a "Big Hit" at Archives 2000 in Minneapolis and a Few other

events I was involved in. She was a Real Treat!! R..I P. Ruthie!



_______________________________________



Original message #8437 from

"momaria33772" jhoffma6@tampabay.rr.com>

(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)



Ruth O'Neil passed away on Sunday April 22, 2012. She was 97 years old & had

just celebrated 68 years of sobriety on April 14 .... In 1995 at the

International in San Diego at the longtimers meeting, the crowds went wild

begging for additional time allowance after she was "Gonged". Her talks were a

great wealth of history.


0 -1 0 0
8454 brian koch brian koch Re: First One Hundred - Harlan Spencer - car salesman? or not? First One Hundred - Harlan Spencer - car salesman? or not? 5/7/2012 7:54:00 AM


Understood about the Amos list. Could selling cars have been an interim job, or

one from earlier in his life? I know the big book says he was working for a

concern he used to own. Salesman can float or move between types of products,

generally looking to keep working in the sales field. Gift of gab, outgoing

personality etc. At the time of death maybe they just listed the final

occupations he held, and held more respectfully?



Brian



- - - -



From: jax760@yahoo.com

Date: Thu, 3 May 2012

Subject: Re: First One Hundred - Harlan Spencer - car salesman? or not?



The Amos List written by Dr Bob shows him as an auto salesman.



- - - -



From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com>



Harlan Spencer, AA#28, who some believe is the model for Jim, the milk and

whiskey guy in the big book, is buried in the same cemetery as Dr Bob and Ann

Smith: Mount Peace Cemetery, Akron OH. Section 17, Lot 4, Grave 7.



His obituary does not show him as a car salesman however. It says "He worked as

a salesman here for the Hardware and Supply Co. and later for the Summit

Electric Co ..."


0 -1 0 0
8455 LES COLE LES COLE AA history book on Rogers Burnham AA history book on Rogers Burnham 5/3/2012 10:50:00 AM


Leslie B. Cole's book on Rogers Burnham is now available as an e-book



Kindle on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Rogers-Burnham-Original-Behind-ebook/dp/B006QSELKU



Nook at Barnes and Noble:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/rogers-burnham-leslie-b-cole/1108056695



Also see his webpage: http://www.lescole-aa.com/



A book concerning many basic origins of AA in Vermont, and personal information

about Bill Wilson’s brother-in-law, Rogers Burnham, published this last

December. It can now be obtained in local bookstores and/or through the

Internet.



In this book are copies of several records and pictures from the archives at

Stepping Stones Foundation in Katonah, NY (Bill and Lois’s only long-term home).



There is also data about



*Ebby Thacher’s home in Manchester, Vermont;



*Rowland Hazard’s home in Glastenbury, Vermont

used during the 1930s and what became of it;



*a copy of a newspaper account regarding the

death of Rowland’s wife, Helen;



*stories of the Burnham’s large summer estate

in Manchester, Vermont used from the late 1800s

until 1936;



*pictures and stories of the Burnham cottage on

Emerald Lake, North Dorset, Vermont where Bill

first met the Burnham's and where he and Lois

established their secret engagement;



*historical pictures of Bill’s birthplace and

his burial cemetery in East Dorset, Vermont.



Also, there are pictures of birth and death certificates of many people

associated with Bill and Lois, including Bill’s death certificate and temporary

winter entombment in Manchester Center, Vermont; a copy of Bertha Bamford’s

death certificate (Bill’s significant high school girlfriend at Burr and Burton

in Manchester who died unexpectedly ); a picture of the large home of Robert

Lincoln (President Lincoln’s son) where the Burnham children played together

during summers in Manchester; evidence about Bill’s actual graduation from Burr

and Burton high school; and a discussion about how the principles of the

Swedenborgian religion impacted the development of the AA 12-Steps program.



I’ll be glad to hear from other historians about any of these topics via my

personal E-mail, elsietwo@msn.com



Les Cole

Colorado Springs, CO


0 -1 0 0
8456 tom_hesychast tom_hesychast Wilson to JLK, 1943 - utter simplicity - complete mystery Wilson to JLK, 1943 - utter simplicity - complete mystery 5/12/2012 8:53:00 AM


Alcoholics Anonymous is "an utter simplicity which encases a complete mystery"



====================

This quotation is cited in Message #6205 from

Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)



"One of the most important messages in Ernie Kurtz's great history of AA ....

Alcoholics Anonymous will live ... so long as it is 'Alcoholics Anonymous': 'an

utter simplicity which encases a complete mystery' that no one claims perfectly

to understand."

====================



The quotation above is attributed to Bill W. in a footnote (Wilson to JLK, 1943)

on p. 157 in "Not God" by E. Kurtz. I purchased this in ebook format

(searchable) and it does not provide any additional information on this

statement or JLK. A cursory search of additional historical resources has

yielded nothing other than reference to this book.



Does anyone know:



1) The original source of this statement, time-date-context



2) The identity of JLK


0 -1 0 0
8457 rsmith77379 rsmith77379 Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet 5/11/2012 11:01:00 PM


Just keep trying with Archives... You need to remember that their copy might

not be any better. Even if it's coming from the "original" the one that they

have might be the second or even third 'carbon copy' from Ruth Hock's original

typing.



_________________________________



Original message: Can anyone assist me with this? I have tried e-mailing the

archives in New York, but have received no response. Any help would be

appreciated.


0 -1 0 0
8458 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker 1943 printing of 1940 booklet titled AA 1943 printing of 1940 booklet titled AA 5/18/2012 1:44:00 PM


Dear AA History Friends,



I have scanned a 1943 printing of the original 29-page 1940 booklet titled AA

and have made it into a PDF file. This is perhaps the first pamphlet for the

general public published by the Alcoholic Foundation; but I am not sure about

that.



This PDF is 10 MBs.



If interested in said copy, please send request to, Bob S.

rstonebraker212@comcast.net(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)



In service,



Bob S. Archives, District 40, Area 23



Bob Stonebraker

212 SW 18th Street

Richmond, IN 47374

(765) 935-0130

Our 4D website: http://www.4dgroups.org


0 -1 0 0
8459 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: Winchester cathedral Winchester cathedral 5/20/2012 2:44:00 PM


Laurie Andrews sent us a copy of the picture on the postcard which is sold to AA

tourists at Winchester cathedral in England:



http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html

at the top of the page



See original message #8396

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8396

Laurie Andrews in England reported



"Winchester cathedral .... sells postcards of the Hampshire Grenadier tombstone

and during the annual convention at Winchester there is a pilgrimage to the

grave and people gather round it and recite the Serenity prayer."



Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)


0 -1 0 0
8460 Charles Charles Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet 5/21/2012 10:48:00 PM


Hello Group,



I am a little confused and hope someone can set me straight. I have

images of the covers of 2 pamphlet produced by New York titled simply

"A.A." One clearly says it was printed by Works Publishing.

This would be the 1943 version. The other is a very low resolution

photo and one can barely make out that it was published by the Alcoholic

Foundation. Not having access to an area archives any longer, my

question would be is the pamphlet produced by the Alcoholic Foundation

actually reprints of Larry J.'s articles or did it have the same

contents as the 1943 version. Also does anyone know the copyright date

of the Alcoholic Foundation version?



Thanks for your help



Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
8461 ricktompkins ricktompkins Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet 5/22/2012 1:39:00 PM


Hi Charles,



I have an AF (PO Box 459) copyright 1943 pamphlet in front of me, simply

titled "A.A." with the same typeface used in the AF (PO Box 658) copyright

June 1940 "A.A."



The 1943 pamphlet (29 pages) has multiple topics beginning with an

'overview' and address to write to; 'Am I an Alcoholic?' 'The Doctor's

Nightmare' 'The European Drinker' 'Women Suffer Too' 'Bill's Story' and

"Medicine, Religion, and Alcoholics Anonymous' 'The Twelve Steps (with some

Spiritual Experience appendix text)' 'Our Friends Say' and Dr. Fosdick's

'Book Review.'



The 1940 pamphlet (33 pages) has the reprinted (Larry J.) Houston Press

articles (x6), 'The Twelve Steps' and Dr. Silkworth's 'To the Doctor.'



These are in my possession to de-acidify, scan, and encapsulate before

returning them for placement in the Area 20 Northern Illinois Area Archives.



I'll be happy to send you the pdf files when they're complete.



Rick, Illinois



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

On Behalf Of Charles

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 9:48 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA

pamphlet



Hello Group,

I am a little confused and hope someone can set me straight. I have

images of the covers of 2 pamphlet produced by New York titled simply

"A.A." One clearly says it was printed by Works Publishing.

This would be the 1943 version. The other is a very low resolution

photo and one can barely make out that it was published by the Alcoholic

Foundation. Not having access to an area archives any longer, my

question would be is the pamphlet produced by the Alcoholic Foundation

actually reprints of Larry J.'s articles or did it have the same

contents as the 1943 version. Also does anyone know the copyright date

of the Alcoholic Foundation version?

Thanks for your help

Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
8462 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Dr. Paul O. Dr. Paul O. 5/22/2012 8:14:00 PM


Was Dr. Paul's medical practice a specialty or general?



Where did he go to medical school?



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8463 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews Re: Winchester - postcard - Hampshire Grenadier tombstone Winchester - postcard - Hampshire Grenadier tombstone 5/20/2012 4:40:00 PM


From Laurie Andrews and Brian Koch



- - - -



From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



And not just to AA tourists; the postcard are on sale to the public in the

cathedral shop, which also takes orders.



Laurie Andrews



- - - -



From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com>

(kochbrian at hotmail.com)



I was blessed enough to be given one of these postcards by a very quiet, but

venerated member of our AA community a few years back. He passed about two years

ago, but I will always remember his gift to me.



Blessings,



Brian



- - - -



From: glennccc@sbcglobal.net

Date: Sun, 20 May 2012

Subject: Re: Winchester cathedral



Laurie Andrews sent us a copy of the picture on the postcard which is sold to AA

tourists at Winchester cathedral in England:



http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html

at the top of the page



See original message #8396

Laurie Andrews in England reported



"Winchester cathedral .... sells postcards of the Hampshire Grenadier tombstone

and during the annual convention at Winchester there is a pilgrimage to the

grave and people gather round it and recite the Serenity prayer."


0 -1 0 0
8464 kochbrian2249 kochbrian2249 New Bill W Movie New Bill W Movie 5/24/2012 7:20:00 AM


Would love to hear from those that were able to get to the premier weekend of

this film. I was lucky enough to have a fellow recovery wife and Maplewood NJ is

not that far away from home, so we were able to attend on Sunday.



We were enthralled by the historical information and the way it was presented.

Accurate, consise, and no punches pulled, while at the same time being

compassionate to our founder. Poigniant interviews with historians and Helen

Wynn's son, Shep III. Shep even broke down slightly when he talked about his

mother, and his own, relationship with Bill.Readings from Lois and Nell's

diaries, as well as audio tapes of Bill and Nell, among others. The

re-enactments were somewhat stilted but overall well worth the trip and watch.



As an aside, We were able to visit the grave of Douglass Delanoy, AA #22, who is

interred at Princeton Cemetery in Princeton NJ. Lovely cemetery located adjacent

to the college, also the burial site of Grover Cleveland.



Blessings Friends,



Brian


0 -1 0 0
8465 Paul Paul Kenneth E. Hart, A Spiritual Interpretation of the 12-Steps of AA Kenneth E. Hart, A Spiritual Interpretation of the 12-Steps of AA 5/23/2012 7:52:00 PM


Does someone have a .pdf of "A Spiritual Interpretation of the 12-Steps of

Alcoholics Anonymous: From Resentment to Forgiveness to Love," Kenneth E. Hart,

Journal of Ministry in Addiction & Recovery, Vol. 6(2) 1999? For reasons that

escape, I've received pp. 25-31, which is incomplete, and probably means I only

got from Resentment to Forgiveness, never having quite made it all the way to

Love, which seems like an utter travesty. Now if I don't get there quick, I may

never recover my long lost sense of humor (reads "sanity") however droll it

might have been to begin with. Thank God it's kinda like Dippity Doo: A little

dab will do ya!



Best,

Paul

If need be, 913/706-PAUL weekday mornings or afternoons. Weekend OK to.


0 -1 0 0
8466 hartsell hartsell RE: New Bill W Movie New Bill W Movie 5/24/2012 11:58:00 AM


Would appreciate more information on this NEW film on the life of Bill W.



Is there a link to such information available?



Sherry C. H.


0 -1 0 0
8467 ckbudnick ckbudnick Seeking information about an early AA named Jack G. Seeking information about an early AA named Jack G. 5/26/2012 12:44:00 AM


Greetings,



I recently obtained a transcript of testimony given by Jack Gardner on May 19,

1958 to the California legislature, Subcommittee on Narcotics and Dangerous

Drugs. Jack is a member of AA who got sober around 1947 and was active in

institional work; similiar to Jack Prohs, another AA member who was involved

with institutional service work and helping support Narcotics Anonymous.



The testimony begins:



==============================================

"I am Jack Gardner. I am here as a layman to speak about the Narcotics

Anonymous group, not as a member of it, but as one of the originators in this

area, of the program. I want to say right here that since I have been here, I

am the first layman and so I am going to have to speak from factual experience

rather than from intellectual knowledge on this problem of narcotic addiction.



Let me preface these remarks by saying that I am also an alcoholic and have been

a member of Alcoholics Anonymous consistently and continually for 11 years. I

have been very active in the Institutional Committee whose prime object is to

carry the message of AA and the rehabilitating factor into hospitals and

prisons."

==============================================



I'm looking for any information about this gentleman. Also, feel free to

contact me at my email address below if you would like to read the entire

transcript.



Appreciatively,



Chris B., Raleigh, NC



E-MAIL ADDRESS: cbudnick@nc.rr.com>

(cbudnick@nc.rr.com)


0 -1 0 0
8468 Brian Waterman Brian Waterman Re: Dr. Paul O. -- what medical school Dr. Paul O. -- what medical school 5/23/2012 1:09:00 PM


From Brian Waterman, Charles Knapp, and Glenn Chesnut



- - - -



From: "Brian Waterman" brian@bedrugfree.net>

(brian at bedrugfree.net)



I do not know where he went to school, but he has mentioned in his talks his

specialty was internal medicine.



- - - -



From: Charles Knapp cpknapp@yahoo.com>

(cpknapp at yahoo.com)



Dr Paul Hubert Ohliger was born in Canton Ohio and got his medical degree around

1947 from Ohio State. I want to say he became a pharmacist. I know he worked at

the VA hospital in L.A. sometime in the 1950's. Later in life he either started

a treatment center in Laguna Beach, California or was the head of the facility

by the name of Care Manor.



Hope this helps



Charles from Wisconsin



- - - -



From: Glenn Chesnut, Moderator



http://www.a-1associates.com/westbalto/HISTORY_PAGE/Authors.htm



Dr. Paul Ohliger, M.D.



"Paul had begun to drink when in pharmacy school to help him sleep. He went

through pharmacy school, graduate school, medical school, internship, residency

and specialty training and, finally went into practice. All the time his

drinking kept increasing. Soon he began taking drugs to pep him up and

tranquilizers to level off."



http://www.geni.com/people/Paul-Ohliger/6000000002992618038



Paul Hubert Ohliger (1918 - 2000)

Place of Burial: Franklin, Ohio

Birthdate: November 3, 1918

Birthplace: Canton, Stark, Ohio, USA

Death: Died May 19, 2000 in Mission Viejo, Orange, California, USA

wife: Maxine Ganslein



http://california-physicians-surgeons.findthebest.com/l/94210/Paul-H-Ohliger-M-d



Paul H Ohliger, M.D. in Laguna Niguel, California

Address: 31352 Flying Cloud Dr., Laguna Niguel, California 92677



Dr. Ohliger graduated from Ohio State University College of Medicine in 1947.

After graduating from medical school, Dr. Ohliger completed Not Identified of

post-graduate training.



Dr. Ohliger was issued California medical license CFE 11893 in February 23, 1949



- - - -



Original message #8462

From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net> (cometkazie1 at cox.net)



Was Dr. Paul's medical practice a specialty or general? Where did he go to

medical school?



Tommy H in Danville


0 -1 0 0
8469 john wikelius john wikelius Re: New Bill W Movie New Bill W Movie 5/24/2012 1:13:00 PM


Is this movie available? How much and where would one order from?


0 -1 0 0
8470 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: New Bill W Movie New Bill W Movie 5/24/2012 3:27:00 PM


See message #8274 from: bill@athenararebooks.com

(bill at athenararebooks.com )

Wed Mar 14, 2012



The website for the new documentary on the life of

Bill Wilson produced by Page 124 Productions:



http://www.page124.com/



The creative team has not yet announced any definite plans for the

distribution of this film, but the DVD will be available June 10th.



You can let them know that you want a copy when it's available if you go to



http://www.page124.com/dvd/> (www.page124.com/dvd/)



More information about the documentary (along with a look at the

TRAILER) can also be found at



http://www.billw.com/> (www.billw.com)


0 -1 0 0
8471 bill@athenararebooks.com bill@a... Re: New Bill W Movie New Bill W Movie 5/25/2012 11:53:00 AM


Complete details on currently scheduled showings of the movie (more being added

all the time) along with a trailer can be found at



http://www.billw.com>

(www.billw.com)



Old Bill



===============================



From: Jeff Bruce aliasjb@gmail.com>

(aliasjb at gmail.com)



LINKS TO THE WEB PAGE: http://www.page124.com/



ABOUT THE FILM: http://www.page124.com/about/



TO SEE THE TRAILER: http://tinyurl.com/cfmnw68



===============================



ALSO SENT IN BY:

brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com>

Alan R taurusnj63@yahoo.com>

Jesper kidblast10@yahoo.dk>

trysh travis trysh.travis@gmail.com>


0 -1 0 0
8472 Dan Dan Re: New Bill W Movie New Bill W Movie 5/25/2012 7:42:00 AM


From Dan and rsmith



- - - -



From: Dan danno1002@hotmail.com>

(danno1002 at hotmail.com)



A radio interview with Kevin and Dan discussing

the film can be heard at:



http://www.wksu.org/news/story/31179>

(www.wksu.org/news/story/31179)



- - - -



From: "rsmith77379" kk500@comcast.net>



Their website is at: http://www.page124.com/



Other than signing me up for their newsletter, I've

been unable to get any response out of them.


0 -1 0 0
8473 rsmith77379 rsmith77379 Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet 5/26/2012 12:11:00 PM


Houston Intergroup has one of the pamphlets, plus I just received from AAWS

Archives a pdf copy. If anyone would like a copy of the 1940 pamphlet, please

drop me a line at



intergroup@aahouston.org

(intergroup at aahouston.org)



and I'll email it back to you.


0 -1 0 0
8474 Alan R Alan R Re: New Bill W Movie New Bill W Movie 5/24/2012 10:56:00 AM


From Alan R. and Shakey Mike



- - - -



From: Alan R taurusnj63@yahoo.com

(taurusnj63 at yahoo.com)



I saw it in Maplewood on Sunday as well. It was titled Bill W, so it was

specifically Bill's story, not AA's Story or Dr. Bob's story. It was great

seeing the home movies. I agree with Brian's assessment, it was accurate and

concise, warts and all, I thought it really humanized Bill. I did have a pet

peeve with the narrator repeatedly referring to Bill as the "founder", not the

co-founder of the fellowship. I looked up the NY Times obituary of Bill, the

obit referred to Bill as the "co-founder", so I don't know where the filmmaker

was getting his info from. But aside from that little thing, I recommend it

highly. I did enjoy the AA members' mini-qualifications (told in shadows),

their recovery is part of Bill's legacy.



Alan R.



- - - -



From: Michael Gwirtz Shakey1aa@aol.com

(Shakey1aa at aol.com)



My sponsor sent the following e-mail to me yesterday about the movie.

I think what he mentions allows even the WW's and those that are Wilson bashers

to pause and reflect on what a wonderful gift thatGod gave to us through the

early members Bill, Doc, Hank, Fitz etc. Thank God for our gift

Yours in Service,



Shakey Mike Gwirtz

P.S. remember the NAAAW in Florida this year.



Over the decades I hope that I have evolved, grown, mellowed and matured.

There are times when I know it is more like devolved than evolved but after all,

being human comes with its own set of pitfalls and eureka moments.



I recently went to a showing of the new feature length documentary about Bill

W. put out by Page 124 Productions. As I sat in the packed house I once again

fell in love with the history of Alcoholics Anonymous. This was not a theatrical

production despite the use of actors in some of the scenes. For me, the movie

was a real portrayal of Bill as co-founder, man and alcoholic with everything

each of those parts of his life entailed.



Of course, if the film could tell the "rest of the story" as radio

broadcaster Paul Harvey was famous for doing this movie would be at least 27

hours long and it would lose its impact and beauty. Yes, I did say impact and

beauty. The way this documentary was presented was impactful and between the new

photographs, use of Bill's actual voice and words and fantastic musical score

it was indeed beautiful. I liked everything about the movie and probably would

have enjoyed a few more hours of viewing pleasure but I understand that there

are plans for adding additional footage into the DVD release.



Parts of the film reminded me of so many negative remarks I've heard over

the years about Bill - some of them came from me. I humbly apologize for those

insensitive and callous remarks, made without the understanding, knowledge and

hopefully, insight I believe I have today.



People talk about Bill's use of LSD without taking that use into historical

context. When Bill was taking LSD, that compound was not looked upon as it is

today or in the past few decades. It was looked upon at that time as a potential

wonder drug which held promise to help thousands of people suffering from

alcoholism, depression and other maladies. Bill took LSD under the care of

physicians and those trained in the healing arts for specific medical purposes

and not to get high.



I'm sure these same naysayers would also talk about someone using heroin in

the late 1800's when at that time when the Bayer Company introduced heroin, it

was done so as a non-addictive substitute for morphine. These same people would

have problems in 1885 when Cocaine Toothache Drops with "Instantaneous

Cure!" was advertised for use by children. It is all about historical context.

The fact that Bill had participated in medically approved experiments with LSD

given historical context is really not that important.



The other piece I see people talk about is Bill's participation in

spiritualism. Once again, historical context proves that much of society was

also participating in spiritualist practices such as seances and use of Ouija

Boards. That was the "IN" thing of that period. Who knows, maybe in 50 or

100 years, people looking back at us might question our addiction with

"Tweeting" or social networking. It was just what people did back then -

historical context. Nothing evil intended.



Another of the topics always bandied about is talk of Bill's asking for a

drink on his death bed. None of these people who bring that up as something

horrific ever take into account Bill's oxygen starved brain, ravages of

Emphysema and other medical factors which came into play during those last

painful days of Bill's life.



Bill's relationships with women other than Lois is another big topic of

negativity. I am not going to address any rumors or undocumented relationships

but I will touch on Bill's relationship with Helen W.



Everyone knows Bill had a long history of severe depression. Lois also had

very little patience dealing with Bill's periods of depression. Helen on the

other hand often nurtured Bill back to health from these periods lost in the

abyss. There were times when Helen found Bill at the deepest part of his pain

and who knows what would have happened if she hadn't saved him from those

depths he couldn't pull himself out of? Where would AA be if Bill W.,

Co-Founder had completed suicide or returned to drinking? Where would AA be if

it weren't for Helen? I thank God for Bill's relationship with Helen because

I may not be alive today if that relationship didn't exist. People say they

owe their life to Bill and given how Helen probably saved Bill's life on

several occasions, they may also owe their lives to her as well.



In all reality, I don't believe any of the negativity has a whole lot to do

with LSD or seances or Bill's reported relationships. I think these people

just don't like AA because of some unfounded hatred of God and rather than

just be honest, they pick on all this other stuff, taken out of historical

context and twisted just to lash out at their God hatred.



AA isn't about a God of religion or sect or denomination. AA says throughout

its literature it is about finding a God of your understanding. A Power greater

than yourself of your own conception. If really questioned, many of these

anti-AA people aren't really anti-AA. They are anti-religion. They just

don't want to understand that AA isn't about religion or a God defined by

religion.



Next time if your child has a tooth ache, think that if this was 1885 you

might be giving them Cocaine Toothache Drops. Think about what people did back

in the 1940's as their "social networking" the next time you "Tweet"

or update your Facebook status. Think about where you would be if Helen had not

helped bring Bill back from teetering on the edge of the abyss and wasn't

there and he had gotten drunk or completed suicide?



Even the Big Book says we are not saints. Bill certainly was not a saint. I

certainly am not a saint. Are you?


0 -1 0 0
8475 jax760 jax760 Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet Larry J. and what some call the first AA pamphlet 5/30/2012 6:14:00 PM


I have just come across a July 1942 pamphlet identical to the 1940 pamphlet

layout i.e 33 pages, the 6 articles, 12 steps and Silkworth's july 1939 article

in the Journal-Lancet.



Also came across a piece called "Introduction to AA" same typeface as previously

mentioned pamphlets. Looks like 12 questions such as"



IX. Is AA a religious group or movement?



"If admitting that we ourselves nor any human relationship or agance have

been able to help us so far as the drinking problem is concerned, and that we

are desperately in need of help from somewhere, and are willing to accept it, if

it can be found-if that is religion-the answer is yes.



A.A. has no dogma, no creed, no ritual.



It does not intrude into a member's conception of the Spiritual. However, we

believe that an appeal for help to one's own interpretation of a Higher Power

and the acceptance of that help is the indespensable factor in working toward a

satisfactory adjustment to life and its problems."



anyone ever see this piece before or anything like it?



I have reason to believe this is one of those "can openers" produced by The New

Jersey Group of AA (AA Gorup # 4) around the time these other early AA pamphlets

were produced i.e 1940 - 1943 as another phamphlet question mentions 150 AA

groups in existence throughout the country. My bet would be 1943/44?



John B.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins" wrote:

>

> Hi Charles,

>

> I have an AF (PO Box 459) copyright 1943 pamphlet in front of me, simply

> titled "A.A." with the same typeface used in the AF (PO Box 658) copyright

> June 1940 "A.A."

>

> The 1943 pamphlet (29 pages) has multiple topics beginning with an

> 'overview' and address to write to; 'Am I an Alcoholic?' 'The Doctor's

> Nightmare' 'The European Drinker' 'Women Suffer Too' 'Bill's Story' and

> "Medicine, Religion, and Alcoholics Anonymous' 'The Twelve Steps (with some

> Spiritual Experience appendix text)' 'Our Friends Say' and Dr. Fosdick's

> 'Book Review.'

>

> The 1940 pamphlet (33 pages) has the reprinted (Larry J.) Houston Press

> articles (x6), 'The Twelve Steps' and Dr. Silkworth's 'To the Doctor.'

>

> These are in my possession to de-acidify, scan, and encapsulate before

> returning them for placement in the Area 20 Northern Illinois Area Archives.

>

> I'll be happy to send you the pdf files when they're complete.

>

> Rick, Illinois

>

> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> On Behalf Of Charles

> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 9:48 PM

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Larry J. and what some call the first AA

> pamphlet

>

> Hello Group,

> I am a little confused and hope someone can set me straight. I have

> images of the covers of 2 pamphlet produced by New York titled simply

> "A.A." One clearly says it was printed by Works Publishing.

> This would be the 1943 version. The other is a very low resolution

> photo and one can barely make out that it was published by the Alcoholic

> Foundation. Not having access to an area archives any longer, my

> question would be is the pamphlet produced by the Alcoholic Foundation

> actually reprints of Larry J.'s articles or did it have the same

> contents as the 1943 version. Also does anyone know the copyright date

> of the Alcoholic Foundation version?

> Thanks for your help

> Charles from Wisconsin

>


0 -1 0 0
8476 Laurie Andrews Laurie Andrews Compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings in the U.K. Compulsory attendance at AA/NA meetings in the U.K. 5/31/2012 11:52:00 AM


The Guardian has carried articles critical of the coalition government's policy

of forcing problem drinkers/addicts to attend AA/NA meetings or lose their

benefits. The first is by John Sutherland:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/24/iain-duncan-smith-alcoholic-\

plan




and the other is a follow-up in today's paper by Tanya Gold.



____________________________________________



G.C. note -- the Guardian is the third largest British

national daily newspaper.


0 -1 0 0
8477 Paul Paul Re: New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson New book on Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard, and Bill Wilson 5/31/2012 2:53:00 PM


Thanks for the heads up. Hard to say how exactly much overlap w/o looking at

both? This below may? contain all the relevant text in the first; from The

Harvard Psychedelic Club, pp. 66-68:

~~~

Humphrey Osmond was also the author of a much-discussed study in the 1950s that

reported some success in treating alcoholics with LSD. Osmond initially thought

the drug produced symptoms similar to delirium tremens. Producing a terrifying

artificial delirium might frighten an alcoholic into change. Between 1954 and

1960, Osmond and his colleagues treated some two thousand alcoholics under

carefully controlled conditions and came to see that it was insight, not terror

that seemed to help these drunks reform.

It was this research that would briefly bring Bill Wilson, a cofounder of

Alcoholics Anonymous, into the early psychedelic scene. Wilson was—like Huston

Smith—a big fan of Gerald Heard. "Bill W.," as he is known to his AA minions,

was a hard-drinking businessman who got sober in the 1930s with the help of an

evangelical Christian movement known as the Oxford Group. He was the primary

author of the so-called Big Book, the classic self-help volume that outlines

AA's twelve-step program for sober living and spiritual recovery. Wilson was

clearly influenced by the evangelical movement, but he was also a somewhat

eclectic spiritual seeker; this inclination can be seen in the twelve-step

programs emphasis on alcoholics turning to a self-defined "higher power," to God

"as we understood Him."

In August 1956, one year after Wilson turned over the AA leadership to an

elected board of directors, Heard guided Wilson on an LSD trip that would have a

profound impact on the world's best-known recovering alcoholic. Wilson took what

was probably his first LSD trip at the Los Angeles Veterans Administration

Hospital on August 29, 1956. According to notes taken by Heard, the founder of

AA felt "an enormous enlargement and his insights damn seriously." Shortly after

that acid trip, Huston Smith accompanied Heard on a trip to Kansas City and

spent two hours in a hotel room listening to Wilson and Heard talk about the

acid trip. Wilson was blown away by the drug and said the experience was a dead

ringer for the famous night in the 1930s when he fell down on his knees and had

an epiphany about founding his twelve-step program.

One of the main tenets of the group's recovery program is that alcoholics and

other drug addicts must go through some kind of spiritual awakening to overcome

their addiction. Wilson thought an LSD trip could be an effective tool for A A

members who had little interest—or negative feelings—about religion and

spirituality. The founder of Alcoholics Anonymous had several LSD sessions in

the mid-1950s, including one with researchers working with Dr. Sidney Cohen at

UCLA. Wilson had a group drug session with Tom Powers, a close Wilson associate

who handled public relations for AA. Cohen had proposed a low-dose session with

the two AA leaders, but he made the mistake of giving Wilson another option.



"Well, there are more pills available should you want them," Cohen said.

"Don't ever tell that to a drunk," said Wilson, who insisted on taking a double

dose.



Bill Wilson would have another cameo appearance in the psychedelic story. In a

letter to Timothy Leary dated July 17, 1961, Wilson wrote that Huxley had

"referred enthusiastically to your work." Wilson goes on to write that "though

LSD and some kindred alkaloids have had an amazingly bad press, there seems no

doubt of their immense and growing value." The AA founder also hints that he

knew of Leary's own problems with alcohol, adding that Tim might "find some

interest in Alcoholics Anonymous—its principles and mechanism."

It was Humphrey Osmond's research that originally inspired Wilson to try LSD.

"Early on I told Bill this was good news," Osmond said, "but he was far from

pleased with the idea of alcoholics being assailed by some strange chemical. But

later on Bill got extremely interested. He likened his experience to his

original AA vision of seeing this chain of drunks around the world. This caused

quite a scandal in Alcoholics Anonymous. They became very ambivalent about their

great founder, even though they wouldn't have existed if he hadn't had an

adventurous kind of mind."

~~~



Also, the following three pages seem on topic; a quick search of the AAHL board

didn't yield any of the same results - I could be mistaken and apologies if it

is redundant - comes from "A Tribute to Humphry Osmond M.D. 1917-2004" (pdf) by

Abraham Hoffer located at

http://orthomolecular.org/history/humphry.pdf

~~~

Bill W. – Cofounder Alcoholics Anonymous

I first met Bill W. cofounder Alcoholics Anonymous at the New York meeting. He

was sitting on my right and Humphry was on his right. Humphry and I were

experimenting with leukoadrenochrome.

This is a non-toxic reduced derivative of adrenochrome which Dr. R. Heacock made

in our laboratory. We wanted to study its properties. I can not remember our

reasoning but I am fairly certain we felt it was not an hallucinogen. We made

3-milligram sublingual tablets. We tested it on a number of friends and

colleagues and it either did nothing or had remarkable anti anxiety properties.

We even interested one of the major drug companies who made a batch using our

formula and we ran a long series of tests. But they eventually would not

take it on because its action was not predictable. Drug companies like drugs

that always do something even if it is bad and undesirable for then they are

sure it has activity. Our research is described in our book the Hallucinogens.

As we were sitting listening to the proceedings Bill W. remarked to Humphry that

he was very tense and we could see that he was not comfortable. Humphry promptly

gave Bill one of these 3-milligram tablets. Bill placed it under his tongue and

about 20 minutes later he turned to Humphrey and said now I know what you are

talking about when you say you are relaxed. It had a remarkable effect on him.

We left him a substantial supply and he used it for several months but

eventually we ran out and decided that we could not pursue it any further. Bill

was once more in trouble with his moods. By then the three of us had spent many

hours talking about our research, about Alcoholic Anonymous, about our use of

LSD for treating alcoholics and our use of niacin, which was beneficial for many

of the patients. Bill was very impressed and he began to take niacin 1 gram

after each meal. Two weeks later he was free of his chronic tension and

depression. He remained on this vitamin until he died. He was so enthusiastic

that he began to hand it out to his friends in AA who also suffered many

symptoms of mood disorder even though they were not drinking. One evening when I

was visiting Bill at his hotel he suddenly produced thirty charts and he said

that he wanted to show me the results of his research. I was surprised and

pleaded. He told me that he had given the niacin to 30 members of AA. After one

month ten were well. After two months another ten were well but the last ten had

not responded. This was remarkably like the data I had been seeing. Bill W.

outlined the value of our work with niacin as a treatment to members of the

International Doctors in AA and that spread the idea throughout AA. Bill W. had

to do this outside of his association with the International Board because they

were violently

Abraham Hoffer – Humphry Osmond In Memoriam

page 13/24



opposed to Bill talking about vitamins.15 One of the doctors on the board was

violently opposed to the idea that niacin could be helpful but their main

concern was that Bill was not a doctor.

Bill wrote two pamphlets called A Communication to AA Physicians, the first one

in 1965 (green cover). It had a limited circulation and was followed by the

second one in 1968 (yellow cover) and the last one (white cover) by Drs. Edwin

Boyle Jr., David Hawkins and Russell F. Smith. Dr. E. Boyle was one of the first

American physicians, then working at NIH, who helped plan the Coronary Drug

Study which established niacin as the gold standard for lowering cholesterol

levels. David Hawkins and Linus Pauling coauthored the classical book

Orthomolecular Psychiatry. The first clinical meeting on orthomolecular

psychiatry was held in Long Island at

Brunswick Hospital where he was in charge of the department of psychiatry.

Russell Smith was clinical director of a large hospital in Detroit, which

specialized in treating alcoholics. In the

introduction they wrote "Bill's first inspiration had a profound impact

throughout the world as evidenced not only by the growth of AA itself and its

effect on the field of alcoholism, but also its

impact on the field on mental health in general, with AA type group therapy

having become the foremost successful treatment modality. Bill and those close

to him felt that he had a second inspiration when he recognized the importance

of certain vitamins in returning the brain of some alcoholic to normal

functioning. It was Bill who saw the far reaching implications of this discovery

and brought it into awareness. This again, is already having an impact on the

entire field of mental health. The scientific importance of this discovery was

recognized by the brilliant Nobel Prize winning Professor Linus Pauling, who

termed this new development Orthomolecular Psychiatry".

Because of Bill's interest many AA doctors became powerful advocates of

orthomolecular medicine. The AA International Headquarters rejected Bill's ideas

because not being a doctor he had no right to talk about vitamins. To help him

the Huxley Institute of Biosocial Research gave him a small grant to pay for

secretarial and other expenses. The AA doctors decided to test our claims and

without any demand for double blind controlled studies they created a committee.

Each member of the committee tried niacin on themselves and the result was so

beneficial they approved its use. Bill W. with his enormous influence was a

major player in the development of

orthomolecular medicine. He even resurrected the name Vitamin B3 to replace

niacin and niacinamide. While preparing his material for distribution he asked

us whether there was another name for it. He did not think that using the

current names would help. I remembered

that in 1937 when I took my first class in biochemistry professor Roger Manning

had discussed the vitamins in the order in which they had been discovered. The

first was vitamin A, then vitamin B. But it turned out that vitamin B consisted

of a number of vitamins. The first was thiamin, the second riboflavin and next

in line was niacin, which was number three. I suggested he call it vitamin B3.

This is now the accepted common term. Bill Humphry and I were involved in an

unusual series of events. Humphry was the Director of the Bureau of Research in

Neurology and Psychiatry, New Jersey Neuropsychiatric Institute, Princeton, New

Jersey and lived in one of the buildings while Jane remained in England.

Whenever I went east I would slip down to Princeton and visit with Humphry for a

few days.

One evening we met with Bill at his hotel. I had invited the medical director of

a company to come as well. This physician had asked me to be a consultant on a

product for which they had the patents called NAD. It was specially formulated

so that it was not digested and destroyed in the stomach. The company had been

exploring it as a treatment for alcoholism and had applied for a patent but the

data needed a lot of work. As soon as I learned that such a compound was

available I became very interested, not in using it for alcoholics but in using

it for treating schizophrenia. I had been dreaming about it for a long time but

was never able to obtain any and the pure product taken by mouth was not active.

The company agreed to provide me with adequate supplies.

The results on our patients were remarkable. It would produce the kind of

response in several days that I would expect in several months from vitamin B3.

Eventually the company decided

that the new patent would be very valuable and decided that I was no longer

needed. We terminated our relationship. I sent them my final report and informed

them that I would briefly refer to NAD in my talk to be given at the Waldorf

Astoria on the mechanism of action of the

hallucinogens. I was going to insert one sentence as part of my argument. I told

the company.

15 Hartigan F: Bill W.: A biography of alcoholics anonymous cofounder Bill

Wilson, St. Martins Press, New York 2000.

Abraham Hoffer – Humphry Osmond In Memoriam

page 14/24



They wanted me to eliminate that sentence stating that it would be an

infringement of their trade secret. They offered to pay me an enormous sum of

money if I would keep quiet.

After visiting Humphry I went back to New York to prepare for my talk. That

morning the company's lawyer called my hotel. He said he was with the Richard

Nixon firm and wanted me to come to their office on Wall Street to discuss the

matter. Fortunately I called the lawyer for the nascent American Schizophrenia

Association instead. He advised me to come to his office, which was across the

street from the Richard Nixon firm. My lawyer and the company lawyer

debated the issue vigorously for half a day and eventually the company lawyer

consulted with the company president who ordered him to withdraw the action. Had

I gone to their office I would have been served with a subpoena forbidding me

from giving my talk at the hotel. I discovered later that process servers were

waiting at each entrance to their building. They really had no grounds for

action. My lawyer then advised me to hide until my lecture. He said that the

Nixon firm was honorable and would keep their word but there was nothing to

prevent the company from seeking another firm and starting again. I immediately

called Bill at his hotel and asked him to get me a room. I called Humphry who

was coming in that afternoon and asked

him to go to my hotel to pick up some things for me and bring it to Bill's hotel

room. Humphry though this was great. Then my lawyer escorted me down into some

subterranean tunnel with a private door into the subway. Once I mingled with the

crowds I was safe. In true spy fashion Humphry watched very carefully to see if

he was being followed. He walked around the block, which housed my hotel, the

Roger Smith on Lexington Ave, three times before entering. I called

John Osmundsen, Humphry's good friend who was senior science editor for the New

York Times. I told John that I would be speaking and that there was a chance

that I would be served with a subpoena before I could give my lecture. John

promised he would be there. I think he

was excited by the prospect I might be prevented from talking.

John A. Osmundsen was a journalist who had worked at the New York Times, Life

and Look Magazines, on Public Broadcasting Television and many other

institutions. He was senior science editor for the Times.

The next morning I gave my talk. The following day the New York Times carried a

full-page story on the first page of the second section describing my findings.

That event marks one of the major turning points in orthomolecular psychiatry.

For within a few days both Humphry and I were receiving enormous numbers of

letters, first from the east coast, then they [came] from places further west

and in a few days from the Far East. I received as many as three hundred

letters per week and had to hire another secretary to handle the load. Humphry

and I kept these letters and later when we were organizing the American

Schizophrenia Association we sent an

appeals letter to all the people who had written to us. Within a few weeks we

received about $70,000. This was a remarkable 6% yield. With this money we were

able to establish the American Schizophrenia Association. Bill W. was convinced

that niacin should be an essential element of the AA program because it healed

the members of their chronic tensions, depression, pain and fatigue. Probably

these

symptoms were the main reasons why they became alcoholics in the first place. He

told Humphry and me about a home in Detroit called Guest House. This was a

treatment center for alcoholic Catholic priests. It had been the private home of

a very wealthy Detroit resident. We asked Bill whether it would be possible to

visit the Guest House. He arranged this and sometime later we and Bill were

guests of this lovely home for a couple of days. The priests were

all members of AA. One of the priests, a faculty member of Fordham University

was delighted to meet us. He had suffered from severe Migraine all his life but

soon after he started taking niacin

his migraine headaches were gone. He immediately became a convert and began to

proselytize niacin even more than Bill W. He was called Father Niacin and they

called me Doctor Niacin. I was more closely identified with niacin than Humphry

was because I was more closely involved in the clinical trials. I was so well

known in Canada that one day a letter arrived addressed to Doctor Niacin. The

post office had readdressed it. Guest House was described in the book Fannie

Kahan wrote for both of us called "New Hope For Alcoholics", University Books,

New York, 1966.

Father Niacin later arranged a meeting at Fordham University to discuss the use

of niacin in treatment. At that time we had an active schizophrenics anonymous

group in Saskatoon. Two of their members came to the meeting and using the usual

AA format told the audience about their own recovery from schizophrenia.

Abraham Hoffer – Humphry Osmond In Memoriam

page 15/24

~~~



Best,

Paul



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "corafinch" wrote:

>

> The same author covered some of the same ground in an earlier book, The

Harvard Psychedelic Club: How Timothy Leary, Ram Dass, Huston Smith and Andrew

Weil Killed the Fifties and Ushered in a New Age for America.

>

> That one is available at good prices from used book sites, and some libraries

have it.

>

> Although the men in the subtitle are the primary focus, Huxley and Heard

figure prominently and there is some material on Wilson.

>


0 -1 0 0
8478 Doris Doris New Bill W movie New Bill W movie 5/27/2012 1:07:00 PM


Well said, Mike. An additional point is that in those times people had intense

male/female relationships that were not sexual. Bill clearly had strong sexual

instincts (as indicated in the 12 and 12) but it is extremely possible theirs

was not a sexual relationship.


0 -1 0 0
8479 rickcard47 rickcard47 Where and when? rule about 2 people on a 12 step call Where and when? rule about 2 people on a 12 step call 6/3/2012 9:54:00 PM


Where did AA come up with the idea of 2 people on a 12 step call? I don't see

any info in the BB or 12x12, or other books that can be purchased from GSO.



I can think of reasons why a single person should not go alone, but can't find

any history on the reason for 2 people on a 12 step call.



Why not three people?



Is there any history on this?


0 -1 0 0
8480 trysh travis trysh travis comments on Bill W. documentary comments on Bill W. documentary 6/7/2012 9:05:00 AM


In recognition of Founders' Day this weekend, Points Blog today

features the first in a series of comments on the new Bill W.

documentary, by AA historian Jay Stinnett of Loving Sober

(http://lovingsober.com/). You can find the post at

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/.



Trysh Travis


0 -1 0 0
8481 awuh1 awuh1 Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census 6/8/2012 11:56:00 PM


The 1940 New York census recently became searchable online and Bill and Lois are

there. One quite interesting entry is for Bill's occupation. It lists this as

Social Worker. Does anyone have any information about this? For those

interested here's the link. Happy hunting, there's alot more to be found.





http://interactive.ancestry.com/2442/m-t0627-02656-00872/9632469?backurl=http%3a\

%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1940usfedcen%26\

rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d0%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dlois%26gsln%3dwi\

lson%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%252c_83004005%257c_83004005_x%252c_F00\

06AB0%257c_F0006AB0_x%26uidh%3dfo5%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d5%26h%3d9632469&ssrc=



0 -1 0 0
8482 mike80110 mike80110 Re: Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census 6/10/2012 9:38:00 AM


Thank you, but the link takes you to a page where you need to be a subscriber to

ancestry.com. Any chance of just having the census page posted to aahl?

Again, thank you for your time with this.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "awuh1" wrote:

>

> The 1940 New York census recently became searchable online and Bill and Lois

are there. One quite interesting entry is for Bill's occupation. It lists this

as Social Worker. Does anyone have any information about this? For those

interested here's the link. Happy hunting, there's alot more to be found.

>

>

http://interactive.ancestry.com/2442/m-t0627-02656-00872/9632469?backurl=http%3a\

%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1940usfedcen%26\

rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d0%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dlois%26gsln%3dwi\

lson%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%252c_83004005%257c_83004005_x%252c_F00\

06AB0%257c_F0006AB0_x%26uidh%3dfo5%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d5%26h%3d9632469&ssrc=


>


0 -1 0 0
8483 jerrys1229@yahoo.com jerrys1229@y... AA birthday: 77 years old, 1935-2012 AA birthday: 77 years old, 1935-2012 6/10/2012 1:19:00 PM


Happy Birthday AA!!!!


0 -1 0 0
8484 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Where and when? rule about 2 people on a 12 step call Where and when? rule about 2 people on a 12 step call 6/5/2012 10:51:00 PM


From LaurenceHolbrook and stephenw968



- - - -



From: "hdmozart" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>

(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)



I couldn't find any specific recomendation, but this story from Dr. Bob & the

Good Oldtimers may have provided some incentive for the idea -



pp 246: To give some idea of the dangers involved with women, Oscar W. recalled

the first man killed on a Twelfth Step call. "He called on her after the husband

had left for work," said Oscar. "The neighbors saw this and told her husband.

One night, the husband lay in the weeds outside the house, waiting for the guy,

and when the A.A. came along to take the woman to a meeting, the husband blew

him in half with a shotgun. This was in upstate New York, and it was said that

they named a club after the fellow.



It is an idea that seemed to permeate through the 12 step calls described in Dr.

Bob & the Good Oldtimers - pp 170, "He'd [Dr. Bob] make Twelfth Step calls with

you" - pp 257, "A few days later, Bob went on a Twelfth Step call with Walter

C."



I doubt the 'double team' idea was followed after the Plain Dealer article -

Dorothy S. estimated 500 calls in the first month to be handled by about 13

people (pp 206)



I didn't get a chance to search the digital Grapevine.



- - - -



From: "stephenw968" stephenw968@yahoo.com>

(stephenw968 at yahoo.com)



I have a handout that says it was "Reprinted with permission AA World Service

"Box 459" October-November 1998" called "How do you make an old-fashioned

twelfth step call?" It talks about the 1998 Conference Literature Committee

considering a pamphlet then in use by Area 25 (Kansas),which was rejected in

favor of guidelines developed in a workshop by the Answering Services Committee

of the Elmira (New York) Area Intergoup along the lines of GSO's service piece

"Suggested Workshop Format."



Suggestion 2 reads "Twelfth Step in pairs, with a same-sex member if possible.

Twelfth-Step calls can be intense, and there is safety in numbers. Besides, two

head are better than one. Be punctual and look your best."



This suggests that the practice was in use a long time but never officially

codified. I would guess that two is standard because three may be too many and

in any case difficult to assemble?


0 -1 0 0
8485 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Little Red Book - - rule about 2 people on a 12 step call Little Red Book - - rule about 2 people on a 12 step call 6/6/2012 10:57:00 PM


I have two versions of the "Little Red Book" - one is from Martino Publishing,

Mansfield Centre, CT 2011 and appears to be a copy of the "Little Red Book

published by Coll-Webb, Minneapolis, MN 1951 - these is no mention of

"sponsoring a new member" in Step 12 -



I have a Hazelden, Center City, MN 1986 appearing to be a copy of the 1957

edition - that edition discusses under the heading "Double Sponsorship" in Step

12:



pp 127

"There are many ways of carrying the message besides sponsorship. Some of these

activities appear in the following list.



"2. Making calls with older members who are sponsoring a new member.



pp133

"From the standpoint of preparedness, two members can plan and follow a better

course of action than one. Paired up, we lessen the element of danger and

provide work for a younger member. The prospect gets two views of AA. Follow up

is more complete.

"An older member with a successful record of working with alcoholics never

sponsors alone. He always calls in a younger person to help him and insists they

both read Chapter Seven before making the call, except in emergency cases.



Apparently the "Little Red Book" author considers making a 12 step call as

"sponsoring a new member"


0 -1 0 0
8486 hdmozart hdmozart Re: early pamphlets - - rule about 2 people on a 12 step call early pamphlets - - rule about 2 people on a 12 step call 6/7/2012 12:55:00 AM


Several early pamphlets are available here for perusal:



http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Early%20pamphlets.htm



The Washington DC Pamphlet (and others) only say to "Make calls when asked",

with no particular directives -



Neither Clarence Snyder's 1944 Sponsorship pamphlet nor The Akron Manual (1940)

makes any mention of two members on a 12 step call



I believe Box 459, Vol. 44 #5 (which would be 1998) makes the following

reccomendation:



"2. Twelfth Step in pairs, with a same-sex member if possible.

Twelfth‑Step calls can be intense, and there is safety in numbers.

Besides, two heads are better than one. Be punctual and look your best.



I couldn't find any early articles with 12 step call guidelines in digital

Grapevine -



The earliest mention I could find was in the previously posted 1957 "Little Red

Book"


0 -1 0 0
8487 Shakey1aa@aol.com Shakey1aa@a... Re: Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census 6/10/2012 1:41:00 PM


The link worked with my i phone but not on my p.c.



Just enter 1940 and census and you will see the .gov site.



http://www.archives.gov/research/census/1940/start-research.html



Have fun looking up anyone alive in 1940 if you have an address.



YIS,

Shakey Mike

remember the 16th NAAAW in Cocoa Beach Fl.,

Oct 4-7 ,2012 still warm in Fla then.

http://www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com


0 -1 0 0
8488 B B Dr. Bob Cremated? Dr. Bob Cremated? 6/11/2012 12:10:00 PM


Friends,



I just received a copy of Dr. Bob Smith's obituary, as it appeared in the Akron

Beacon, 11/17/1950. It is rich in information, including a brief retelling of

the first meeting with Bill, and a little bit about his cancer and how he had

been keeping records of his cancer and treatment to aid the study of the

disease, typical Dr. Bob.



The obituary states "Services will be held Monday at 1 p.m. at St. Paul's

Episcopal Church, followed by cremation in Cleveland. Dr. Walter F. Tunks will

officiate at the services." Is this information true? Were his ashes then

buried at Mount Peace in Akron, or was the plan changed at the last minute? Was

the press's information erroneous?



Having attended graveside services in Akron, I know at the very least his name

is shown on the marker there, a place many make a pilgrimage to on an annual

basis.



Wondering if anyone has any info. Happy Founders Day to all my fellows.


0 -1 0 0
8489 trysh travis trysh travis Bill W. on NPR Bill W. on NPR 6/11/2012 12:45:00 PM


In case people missed it, there was a story on Bill W. and Founders'

Day on National Public Radio this morning:

http://www.npr.org/2012/06/11/154596691/bill-w-day-celebrates-alcoholics-anonymo\

us-hero




Trysh Travis


0 -1 0 0
8490 Bruce Kennedy Bruce Kennedy Re: AA birthday: 77 years old, 1935-2012 AA birthday: 77 years old, 1935-2012 6/11/2012 1:41:00 PM


Actually on June 17th (not June 10th) as discussed on this forum a bunch of

times!



Bruce K.

San Francisco


0 -1 0 0
8491 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: Bill and Lois - 1940 Census - how could they afford this? Bill and Lois - 1940 Census - how could they afford this? 6/11/2012 1:52:00 AM


Hey,

 

I believe "social worker" would be a cookie cutter label for anyone doing the

kind of work Bill was doing in 1940 for AA. The census was taken in April 1940,

he had already moved the AA office to Vesey Street in March 1940, so I assume he

wasn't working for Hank any more either. I guess "recovering alcoholic" wouldn't

look so good on the US Census in 1940. Found it strange that Lois had no

occupation listed on the census.

 

But I have a better question. How is Bill affording to live in an apartment in

an up scale neighborhood located at 145 W 55th Street New York in April 1940?

According to the census he is paying $65 a month (over $1,000.00 in today's

money) Those same apartments are going for $2,000 to $4,000 a month today. The

census also shows he is the "head" of the household so he wasn't living with

some one otherwise he would be listed as a "boarder." I guess he could be living

in someone's apartment that they weren't using or fibbed that he was the head of

household. Does any one have any info one this piece of information from the1940

census?

 

Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
8492 KenJ KenJ Re: Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census Bill and Lois in the 1940 Census 6/12/2012 9:03:00 AM


I have posted a copy of the census page in my photobucket ..... The Wilson's are

near the bottom of the page.



It can be tough to read so here is the information you can glean:



They lived at 145 West 55th St.

Wm. G Wilson, 44 years old, Born in Vermont, Social Worker, Worked 52

weeks, "0" salary

Lois B. Wilson was 49 years old, Born in New York



You can download the page from my photobucket:



http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr167/phillycaster/1940UnitedStatesFederalCen\

susforLoisBWilson.jpg



0 -1 0 0
8493 B B Re: Dr. Bob Cremated? - yes - ashes at Mount Peace Cemetery Dr. Bob Cremated? - yes - ashes at Mount Peace Cemetery 6/13/2012 12:25:00 PM


Replying to myself.



After a phone call to Billow Funeral Home, and a check of their records, Dr. Bob

was, indeed cremated. His ashes were then sent to Mount Peace Cemetery on 4 Dec

1950.


0 -1 0 0
8494 John Barton John Barton Re: Bill and Lois - 1940 Census - how could they afford this? Bill and Lois - 1940 Census - how could they afford this? 6/13/2012 12:27:00 PM


I have to double check but I believe that was Morgan Ryan's place.



________________________________

From: Charles Knappcpknapp@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Bill and Lois - 1940 Census - how could they afford this?



How is Bill affording to live in an apartment in an up scale neighborhood

located at 145 W 55th Street New York in April 1940? According to the census he

is paying $65 a month (over $1,000.00 in today's money) Those same apartments

are going for $2,000 to $4,000 a month today. The census also shows he is the

"head" of the household so he wasn't living with some one otherwise he would be

listed as a "boarder." I guess he could be living in someone's apartment that

they weren't using or fibbed that he was the head of household. Does any one

have any info one this piece of information from the 1940 census?

 

Charles from Wisconsin


0 -1 0 0
8495 shakey shakey Re: Origins of 4th step column format Origins of 4th step column format 6/15/2012 2:52:00 PM


In post 2376 and 2682, where Mitchell K observes the similarity between the

O.G's Game of "Truth"( I Was a Pagan by V C Kitchen pg89), and alcoholics

Anonymous fourth step pg 65 in the Chapter "How It Works" of our basic text

"Alcoholics Anonymous ", a reply by Merton M in post 2707 is quite interesting.

Merton explains that Hank Parkhurst gave Bill Wilson his completed Game of

"Truth." It was explained that it was included in Merton's unfinished manuscript

"Black Sheep." The only mention I see says,"Hank's step 1 resembles the present

step 2(Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to

sanity ) and his step 2 somewhat resembles the present step 4 &5 (Made a

searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves & Admitted to God,ourselves

and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs). Nowhere do I see

the written out Game of "Truth" that Hank Parkhurst gave to Bill Wilson,

according To Merton M.

The written out Game of "Truth" does probably apply to every alcoholic. I

list it below for convenience;



IN MY OLD LIFE



I most liked:

Myself.

Liquor, tobacco and almost every other stimulant, narcotic and form of

self-indulgence.

Anything which gave me pleasure, possessions, power, position and

applause, or pumped up my self-esteem.

To be left largely to myself.

My wife -- because of the comforting and complimentary way she treated me.



I hated most:

Poverty (for myself).

Prohibition.

Work.

People who disapproved or tried to interfere with me.

Any betrayal of my inner thoughts or emotions.



IN MY NEW LIFE



I most like:

God.

Time alone with God. The fellowship of the living Jesus Christ.

The stimulation of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God's guidance.

My wife -- because of the things God now enables us to do for each other.

Communion with others who are trying to lead the same kind of

Christ-centered life and the witnessing to all of what Christ has come

to mean to me.



I hate most:

Sin.

Self, because "I" is the middle letter of SIN.

Sins that separate me from God.

Sins that separate me from people.

Anything that falls short of God's plan for me.



[This is Hank's pre-Big Book note to Bill. The source is unfinished

manuscript "Black Sheep". It was transcribed directly from

the original which was in Hank's very distinctive and familiar style.]



[Any additons I made are in brackets [].]



[start]

One of the easiest and most talked about of things among us is a

religious experience. I believe that this is incomprehensible to most

people. Simple and meaning words to us - but meaningless to most of

the people that we are trying to get this over to.



" In my mind religious experience - religion - ect. should not be

brought in. We are actually irreligious - but we are trying to be

helpful - we have learned to be quiet - to be more truthful - to be

more honest - to try to be more unselfish - to make other fellows

troubles - our troubles - and by following four steps most of us have

a religious experience. The fellowship - the unselfishness appeals to us.



"I wonder if we are off the track.



"A very good merchandising procedure is to find out why people do not

buy our products - it is good reasoning to find out WHY - I am

fearfully afraid that we are emphasizing religious experience when

actually that is something that follows as a result of 1 - 2 - 3 - 4.



"In my mind the question is not particularly the strength of the

experience as much as the improvement over what we were. I would ask a

man to compare himself as follows after say a month –



" #1 - As compared to 2 months ago do you have more of a feeling that

there is a power greater than you [?]



" #2 - Have you cleaned out more completely with a human being than

ever before?



" #3 - Have you less bad things behind you than ever before [?]



" #4 - Have you been more honest with youself and your fellow man -

Have you been more honest with yourself