tblYgr_AAHistoryLovers
YahooMessageID From FromEmail Subject SubjectSrt RecDate Message AttCount NewMsgFlag DelMsgFlag FavMsgFlag
8082 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden 12/31/2011 10:19:00 AM

The person who edited the second draft of Bill's Story was probably Joe Worden
(b 1895), not Joe Worth.

Sixty years later, during a 1999 interview, Dr. Bob's Daughter, Sue Windows
Smith, remembered the editor's name as Joe Worth.

Consequently, with this information, I had indicated the wrong name
for Bill's Story Second Draft. This information has been corrected on the PDF
file on this website:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/

I am told there is a signature with the name "Worden" on the first Big Book
sold.

Bob S.

-------------------

P.S. Here's an excerpt from the full "Note" from CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY
QUARTERLY (Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown) Vol. 3, No. 3
[April-May-June 2007], pp. 3-4, which is all the attribution needed. You
might add that the signature in the 1st Big Book Sold shows the name as
Worden, not Worth.

In Jim B's account of early AA, one Joe W. (Jim actually records the last
name, but it will not be used here) is identified as the man who told Bill
to call the book (and the fellowship) Alcoholics Anonymous rather than
Anonymous Alcoholics. Jim records that this Joe W. was with the New Yorker,
but no New Yorker records available confirmed this. Research among various
Joseph W's who might have been ours provided a Joseph Hooker W., Jr., b.
Bridgeport CT February 2, 1895, son of Emma (b. 1875) and Joseph Hooker W.
Sr. (1868-1941), a telegrapher and then metering clerk for the railroad.
This identification was confirmed when the first page of signatures in the
"First Big Book Bought" in the Archives at GSO showed the name Joseph Hooker
W-----, Jr. Further research (Bridgeport Post) indicated he was married in
the late summer of 1923, when working for the New York Post, and a son.
Joseph Hooker W----- III was born October 13, 1924, at which time the
W-----s lived in Cos Cob CT. The marriage notice provides the information
that bride and groom would be living on Livingston St. in Brooklyn Heights,
that the bride had attended the Pratt Institute and worked for Franklin
Simon, and that the groom had attended Bridgeport High School and the Park
Avenue Institute, and previously worked for Metropolitan magazine.

0 -1 0 0
8083 Paul Paul Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure 12/31/2011 10:45:00 AM

http://www.archive.org/details/godismyadventure032951mbp

"a book on modern mystics masters and teachers"
by ROM LANDAU

Contains an early chapter on Buchmanism:
"IV. The Man whose God is a Millionaire
DR. FRANK BUCHMAN 141"

Not entirely complicit, not entirely critical, more or less empirical. I bought
a cheap used copy several years ago - now I see it's downloadable or can be read
online for free.

Best,
Paul


- - - -

FROM GC THE MODERATOR: I'm glad Paul sent this in, so we could post it. I would
still recommend that those who wish to know more about the Oxford Group start by
reading these two works:

A[rthur] J[ames] Russell, For Sinners Only (Tucson, Arizona: Hats Off Books,
2003; orig. pub. 1932).

V[ictor] C[onstant] Kitchen. I Was a Pagan (New York. Harper & Brothers, 1934).

And perhaps two or three other of the most famous positive accounts.

But Landau's chapter on Buchman, which Paul refers us to here, would be another
very valuable account to read, for anyone who wants to get a broader picture of
Buchman. There were those who criticized Buchman -- it is important to know why.

0 -1 0 0
8084 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden 1/1/2012 7:25:00 PM

So the man's name was Joseph Hooker Worden, Jr., and he worked for a while for
Metropolitan Magazine in New York City.

That makes better sense than trying to link Joe with the New Yorker magazine,
let alone trying to make him the founder of the New Yorker magazine.

Metropolitan Magazine (New York) -- see wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Magazine_%28New_York%29

The name of the magazine was changed in 1924, and it went out of business in
1925. There were enough similarities between Metropolitan Magazine during its
heyday, and the New Yorker magazine, to make it easy to see how confusion could
have occurred later on, about which one Joe had worked at.

Good! That is a mystery solved!

0 -1 0 0
8085 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler 1/2/2012 5:35:00 PM

From: Laurence Holbrook Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>
(Email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)

Interesting to note that Fulton Oursler was the supervising editor of
Metropolitan Magazine?

- - - -

From: Glenn Chesnut

You're right! Some very interesting interconnections there. Shows how a couple
or more of our people in AA history may have first come in contact with (or
learned about) one another.

As you noted, the Wikipedia article on the Metropolitan Magazine in New York
talks about Fulton Oursler's involvement with that publication, which means a
point of contact between Oursler and Joe Worden:

=============================================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Magazine_%28New_York%29

"In January 1923, on the urging of Supervising Editor Fulton Oursler, Bernarr
Macfadden bought the magazine, launching its new era with an abridged
serialization of Theodore Dreiser's banned novel The Genius. The first Macfadden
issue was dated February-March 1923. It then reverted back to a monthly. Fulton
Oursler's first serious novels, Behold This Dreamer! and Sandalwood were also
serialized. When the magazine's fortunes didn't improve, the title was changed
to Macfadden Fiction-Lovers Magazine with the October 1924 issue. Its last issue
was in August 1925."
=============================================

Message #8084
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8084
From Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden

So the man's name was Joseph Hooker Worden, Jr., and he worked for a while for
Metropolitan Magazine in New York City.

That makes better sense than trying to link Joe with the New Yorker magazine,
let alone trying to make him the founder of the New Yorker magazine.

Metropolitan Magazine (New York) -- see wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Magazine_%28New_York%29

The name of the magazine was changed in 1924, and it went out of business in
1925. There were enough similarities between Metropolitan Magazine during its
heyday, and the New Yorker magazine, to make it easy to see how confusion could
have occurred later on, about which one Joe had worked at.

Good! That is a mystery solved!

- - - -

Message 8082
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8082
From "Robert Stonebraker" rstonebraker212@comcast.net>
(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

The person who edited the second draft of Bill's Story was probably Joe Worden
(b 1895), not Joe Worth.

P.S. Here's an excerpt from the full "Note" from CULTURE ALCOHOL & SOCIETY
QUARTERLY (Newsletter of the Kirk/CAAS Collections at Brown) Vol. 3, No. 3
[April-May-June 2007], pp. 3-4, which is all the attribution needed. You might
add that the signature in the 1st Big Book Sold shows the name as Worden, not
Worth.

=============================================
In Jim B's account of early AA, one Joe W. (Jim actually records the last name,
but it will not be used here) is identified as the man who told Bill to call the
book (and the fellowship) Alcoholics Anonymous rather than Anonymous Alcoholics.
Jim records that this Joe W. was with the New Yorker, but no New Yorker records
available confirmed this.

Research among various Joseph W's who might have been ours provided a Joseph
Hooker W., Jr., b. Bridgeport CT February 2, 1895, son of Emma (b. 1875) and
Joseph Hooker W. Sr. (1868-1941), a telegrapher and then metering clerk for the
railroad.

This identification was confirmed when the first page of signatures in the
"First Big Book Bought" in the Archives at GSO showed the name Joseph Hooker
W-----, Jr.

Further research (Bridgeport Post) indicated he was married in the late summer
of 1923, when working for the New York Post, and a son, Joseph Hooker W-----
III, was born October 13, 1924, at which time the
W-----s lived in Cos Cob CT. The marriage notice provides the information that
bride and groom would be living on Livingston St. in Brooklyn Heights, that the
bride had attended the Pratt Institute and worked for Franklin Simon, and that
the groom had attended Bridgeport High School and the Park Avenue Institute, and
previously worked for Metropolitan magazine.
=============================================

0 -1 0 0
8086 ron.fulkerson@comcast.net ron.fulkerson@c... Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? 1/2/2012 7:49:00 AM

Les

Thanks for all your efforts and look forward to reading your book on Rogers
Burnham. Could you help with a project that we are working to continue? Bill
mentions in his taped conversations that he still had the rifle he used as a
youngster, a Remington 25-20 (page 15). The Remington Firearms site states that
it was not in production during the 1906 year. However, the Winchester site
proclaims widespread production of the 25-20 and its ease of reloading. With
this minor manufacturing issue, we contacted Stepping Stones research by phone.
We requested the make and model numbers for the rifles at the house and were
promised a call back. To date, that has not happened. Can you help?
Thanks...ronf

0 -1 0 0
8087 John Barton John Barton Re: Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler Metropolitan Magazine: Joe Worden AND Fulton Oursler 1/2/2012 11:44:00 PM

Bill and Lois's apartment was on Livingston Street so there seems to be the
connection to Joe. This was the one where Bill broke through the wall and
combined the two units back in the 20's before the crash.
 
Further research (Bridgeport Post) indicated he was married in the late summer
of 1923, when working for the New York Post, and a son, Joseph Hooker W-----
III, was born October 13, 1924, at which time the W-----s lived in Cos Cob CT.
The marriage notice provides the information that bride and groom would be
living on Livingston St. in Brooklyn Heights, that the bride had attended the
Pratt Institute and worked for Franklin Simon, and that the groom had attended
Bridgeport High School and the Park Avenue Institute, and previously worked for
Metropolitan magazine.

0 -1 0 0
8088 Paul Paul Re: Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity Carl Jung - spiritual vs. religious, and syncronicity 1/2/2012 5:55:00 PM

You should read Noll's book rather than the polemics and then you might think
differently. Hard to say, I've not seen any SIGNIFICANT (reads substantial =
substantive & sustained) so-called critique of his scholarship, IOW, GIVES
RELEVANT DETAILS. I'd be happy to take a look, w/o prior contempt, same as I did
*Synchronicity*. Anybody that believes bias doesn't exist, that much of the time
most anybody doesn't swim in it, then well, I dunno. Of course there's bias.
That needn't merit accusation. Anybody can "ignore" anything they want. THE JUNG
ESTATE WOULDN'T CLOSE THEIR ARCHIVES (because of Noll?) unless something rubbed
a few cultists the wrong way.

Yes, At the same time he states that he "read Noll's book(s) more carefully".
And perhaps for good reason,

The Poster


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "awuh1" wrote:
>
> I must admit to a sensing a certain bias in the posting Carl Jung - spiritual
vs. religious, and synchronicity. At the time of the sender's response ... he
admits to finishing neither [Stonebraker's] work nor the seminal work by Carl
Jung "Synchronicity, An Acasual Connecting Principle". At the same time he
states that he "read Noll's book(s) more carefully".
>
> The poster refers to Noll's book, "The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic
Movement", as "scholarly research" and offers up support for this proposition
via the Princeton University Press nomination of it for an award (they are, not
coincidentally, the publishers of the book, and, it did not get the award).
>
> The reviews of the book were far from universally positive. In the Journal,
"Bulletin of the History of Medicine" Volume 70, Number 3, Fall 1996 they write,
"In the guise of a scholarly text on the history of science, Richard Noll has
written a polemic in which he makes unfounded speculations about Jung's personal
and professional life. Specifically, he accuses Jung of having established a
neopagan religious sect, a so-called Jung Cult. As evidence for this accusation,
he offers his own questionable interpretations of Jung's writings ... "
>
> Personally I thought that this review of Noll's book was kind, given some of
the propositions put forth in his "research".
>
> With regard to spiritual vs. religious ... I think the poster is correct, most
of those familiar with AA history regard it as both old hat, AND splitting
hairs.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom
>
> ________________________________________
> A response to Message #7334 from "Paul"
> (spectrumptg at yahoo.com)
>
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7334
>

0 -1 0 0
8089 hdmozart hdmozart Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous 1/1/2012 3:27:00 AM

I just discovered that p. 40 of the current pamphlet (P-17), "A.A. Tradition -
How It Developed - by Bill W" includes the 1955 Grapevine article, "Why
Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous" also by Bill W.

Hope this is helpful

Larry Holbrook
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com
(410) 802-3099

0 -1 0 0
8090 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Mrs. Marty Mann and the medicalization of alcoholism Mrs. Marty Mann and the medicalization of alcoholism 1/3/2012 10:24:00 PM

From Points: The Blog of Alcohol and Drugs History Society,
article by by ronroizen9, a major author on alcoholism,
one of whose special interests lies in the study of
the work of Mrs. Marty Mann and Dr. Jellinek.

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/mrs-marty-mann-and-the-medicaliza\
tion-of-alcoholism/


Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8091 John Barton John Barton Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group 1/3/2012 4:08:00 PM

Glenn is right ... you won't believe how often I hear this (the six steps or the
six tenets of the Oxford Group) at meetings, sometimes even from those who have
a good working knowledge of AA history. The Oxford Group had many "tenets" or
beliefs in addition to those discussed in Bill's story or the foreword to the
second edition of the big book.

The Five C's can be read in their entirety in Walter's book Soul Surgery. A
careful review of these principles will probably show the reader that the Oxford
Group tenets of surrender, sharing, restitution and guidance formed the heart of
the program of recovery as outlined and expanded in the 12 steps of AA.
 
Stepstudy.org has the electronic version of Soul Surgery which is downloadable.
 
The Golden Road Manuscript has excerpts of the work as a section in its 2nd
chapter and a copy of that can be found at this link.
 
http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/categories/show/82107
 
The title of the document is "The Cure of Souls" and is a quick read.
 
I believe someone mentioned a couple of books that could be read to better
understand the work. If I could humbly add these books to those suggested:
 
Soul Surgery
What is the Oxford Group
The Eight Points of the Oxford Group
 
God Bless
 
__________________________________________

From: Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011
Subject: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group


SEVERAL EARLY SIX-STEP VERSIONS OF THE A.A. STEPS

http://hindsfoot.org/steps6.html

- - - -

It is a big mistake to speak of the Oxford Group as having had "Six Steps," or
in fact, any officially codified list of "steps" that you were supposed to work
through in the later AA fashion.

Let's please start giving the early AA people more credit for being creative,
innovative, and real masters of the spiritual life.

What people should look at instead are THE OXFORD GROUP FIVE C's. This list
originally arose in the American and British Protestant foreign missionary
movement. They discovered that preaching huge revivals did not work in countries
like India, China, Iraq, etc., and that if you were going to convert any souls
to Jesus Christ in those regions, it was going to have to be by means of
personal one-on-one evangelism.

Frank Buchman had already been trained and was experienced in Protestant foreign
missionary work when he came to England, and discovered that the Five C's also
worked on students at Cambridge and Oxford Universities. Then a number of other
prominent people joined his group -- newspaper editors, generals, bishops,
wealthy businessmen, and so on -- first in the U.K. and then in the U.S.

Insofar as the AA twelve steps are partially derived from Oxford Group beliefs
(the word "tenet" means belief), they were certainly heavily influenced in
certain important ways by the 5 C's. That's the place to begin if you want to
talk about what AA got from the Oxford Group. If you want lists to cite and
memorize, quit talking about "the Oxford Group's Six Steps" (these are imaginary
and never existed) and talk instead about "the Oxford Group's 5 C's."

The 5 C's were totally real, and very important to understanding the basic way
the Oxford Group really worked.

- - - -

THE FIVE C's OF CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY WORK, by which we could bring genuine
life-changing to ourselves and to other people:

1. Confidence: You could not do anything to bring someone else to Jesus Christ
until the other person had confidence in you. Usually that required me (the
missionary) admitting to the person whom I wished to convert, what my own most
secret and humiliating sins had been.

2. Confession: If we held back from turning our lives completely over to Jesus
Christ, it usually meant that we had some secret sin which we had never admitted
to anyone (having affairs if you were married, homosexuality, being filled with
resentment against the trustees of the boys' home we had once worked for, or
whatever). We had to confess that secret sin to some other human being, and MAKE
RESTITUTION if appropriate. Making restitution could mean writing a letter of
apology to the people against whom we held our resentment, returning money we
had taken from someone else under questionable circumstances, going back and
telling the truth if we had lied about someone, or whatever else.

3. Conviction: But I could not undergo a real conversion experience until I felt
truly convicted of sin. I had to admit that because I had committed this
particular sin, I was worthy only of the flames of eternal hellfire, and I had
to fall into a state of total terror, blind fear, complete self-loathing, and
absolute despair. I had to beat myself up over and over with thoughts of what a
bad person I was, and how terrible that thing was that I had done.

4. Conversion: I then had to turn to Jesus Christ and admit to him -- genuinely
meaning it -- that I was a hopeless sinner, thinking about the specific one or
two or three major sins I had committed, and then beg Jesus for forgiveness and
mercy.

5. Continuance: I then had to continue in this state of repentance over my sins
by daily religious exercises (prayer, quiet time, Bible reading) or whatever
else was necessary, and Jesus would give me the daily grace to avoid committing
those particular sins again.

- - - -

PLEASE NOTE that the Oxford Group did not teach a detailed inventory of all our
character flaws (in the way that AA did in its Fourth Step). They focused only
on asking Jesus for forgiveness for one or two or three specific sins that I had
committed. Please note that even the Big Book example of a Fourth Step is
talking only about three or four very specific sins that the man had fallen
into.

I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that the AA practice of making multi-paged
fourth step inventories did not become common until the flood of Roman Catholics
began coming into the program in 1939 and 1940. St. Ignatius Loyola, very early
in his spiritual development, made a detailed general moral inventory of
himself. He didn't talk about that in his Spiritual Exercises, but every
Catholic who had been deeply trained in those (Sister Ignatia, Father Ed
Dowling, etc.) would have known that St. Ignatius had to do his general moral
inventory first, before he could start practicing a kind of daily prayer that
was more like the AA tenth and eleventh steps.

0 -1 0 0
8092 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group 1/4/2012 6:17:00 PM

John Barton jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) has listed three important
books that we can go to if we want to find good lists of "the tenets of the
Oxford Group." If we look at the chapter headings of these three books, I think
we can put together in our own minds a good rough list of some of the major
emphases of the Oxford Group's teaching:

1. confession of our sins
2. life-changing (conversion = accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior,
then using his power to stop sinning and erase my character defects)
3. total surrender to God and Christ
4. restitution (make peace with your brother)
5. quiet time (silent meditation)
6. guidance (discovering God's plan for my life)
7. gaining strength from the power of the Holy Spirit working in meetings of the
fellowship.
8. the Four Absolutes as the four primary virtues of the Christian life.**

Soul Surgery, by Howard Walter -- gives us our list of the five C's:
1. Confidence
2. Confession
3. Conviction
4. Conversion
5. Conservation [Continuance]

C. Irving Benson, The Eight Points of the Oxford Group: An Exposition for
Christians and Pagans (Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press, 1937).
1. God Has a Plan for Every Life
2. Confession is Good for the Soul
3. If Thy Brother Hath Aught Against Thee--
4. The Four Absolutes
5. Be Still and Know
6. Don't Be an Ass!
7. Life Changers All
8. Lo, Here is Fellowship!

What is the Oxford Group? by A Layman With a Notebook
I. The Oxford Group
II. Sin
III. Sharing for Confession and Witness
IV. Surrender
V. Restitution
VI. Guidance
VII. The Four Absolutes
VIII. The World
IX. You

__________________________________________
**That is, using Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love, and
Absolute (Sexual) Purity to replace the traditional list of Christian moral
virtues and moral vices, which went back centuries and centuries to the early
fourth century desert monks.

(In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached
against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian
activity, transsexualism and so on.)

THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIRTUES: justice (fairness towards all), temperance
(keeping our emotions under control and resisting the temptation to overindulge
in the sins of the flesh), fortitude (courage), prudence (thinking sensibly
before acting), faith, hope, and love.

THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VICES: pride, envy (or jealousy), anger, greed, lust,
sloth, gluttony.

0 -1 0 0
8093 bill@athenararebooks.com bill@a... 50%... then 25%... ?? 50%... then 25%... ?? 1/5/2012 12:14:00 PM

Yesterday at the GSO Archive, I came across the following letter that Bill
Wilson wrote in 1959 commenting on the 50%/25% recovery success rate noted in
the Foreword to the second edition of the Big Book - which he had written and
published four years earlier.

I know there have been several posts on this topic here in the past and I
thought some of Wilson's clarification(such as they are) might be helpful in
understanding what he really meant by those statistics.

I have transcribed the letter in its entirety (deleting only the personal
information on the recipient) and offer it here without further comment.

Old Bill


August 12, 1958

Dear Howard,

Thank deeply for your highly interesting letter of July 29th. I was thrilled by
your account of the Old Timers meeting with the vast sobriety record that it
portended. And also your observations on our 50%-25%-25% claim.

I think you have something when you say that perhaps we give false hope to the
newcomer by those figures. Actually, those figures have never been intended to
apply to all drunks who come within range of A.A. and attend a meeting or so.
They apply to those who really come in and take the treatment over a
considerable period of time. On that narrow classification, I think the figures
will stand up. In Philadelphia, for example, they kept records for a very long
time, accurate ones. Not too long ago they case up figures on old timers which
seemed to prove our claimed percentages. When the new edition of the A.A. book
came out, the same thing happened. The story-tellers had better than the claimed
percentage. So I think it ought to be emphasized with each newcomer that his
chances are just as the figures say, provided he will jump into A.A. and is
willing and capable of working at it.

There is another angle, too. As you say, an awful lot of these people get
hospitalized, attend a few meetings and then disappear. What becomes of them?

Probably you've heard me tell the story about a group of 75 of these people that
Lois and I once picked out of old address books from the very early days. Over
the years, we located more than 60 of them. The 60 had returned to A.A. and most
of them had made the grade. Some had been drunk 3, 5, 7, and 10 years. Finally,
they were driven back on the do-or-die basis and really got the pitch. So our
over-all claims are not excessive in my judgment.

At the office, they continue to get wonderful reports of the change in feeling
in your area about the Third Legacy, General Headquarters, and even about me! It
is one of the most comforting and gratifying happenings that I can remember in
my long A.A. live. Again, Howard, many thanks to you and to all those who have
made this possible.

Devotedly,

Bill

0 -1 0 0
8094 ricktompkins ricktompkins Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group 1/4/2012 9:37:00 PM

What an order! "Can I go through with it?"

That statement in How It Works, turned into a question, always brings me to
search for the substance of AA's serendipity of principles.

Thanks for the great summary post of OG tenets, that collectively may have
been very tough for many OGs to follow.

However, following the search for the roots of AA, I find synchronicity in
our Fellowship's blend of a suggested 'design for living.'

(note that serendipity and synchronicity are not song titles.)



Not forgetting the OG, other clergy recognize AA as a phenomena, too.

The book "Soul of Sponsorship" examines our 12 Steps as an identical
exercise found through the Jesuits' self-examination in the spirit of their
Saint Ignace.



I can't help but feel that our serendipity was a healthy broth stirred by
the hand of the Almighty.

Rick, Illinois



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Chesnut
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 5:18 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers group
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: The early informal AA six steps and the
Oxford Group





John Barton jax760@yahoo.com > (jax760 at
yahoo.com) has listed three important
books that we can go to if we want to find good lists of "the tenets of the
Oxford Group." If we look at the chapter headings of these three books, I
think
we can put together in our own minds a good rough list of some of the major
emphases of the Oxford Group's teaching:

1. confession of our sins
2. life-changing (conversion = accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior,
then using his power to stop sinning and erase my character defects)
3. total surrender to God and Christ
4. restitution (make peace with your brother)
5. quiet time (silent meditation)
6. guidance (discovering God's plan for my life)
7. gaining strength from the power of the Holy Spirit working in meetings of
the
fellowship.
8. the Four Absolutes as the four primary virtues of the Christian life.**

Soul Surgery, by Howard Walter -- gives us our list of the five C's:
1. Confidence
2. Confession
3. Conviction
4. Conversion
5. Conservation [Continuance]

C. Irving Benson, The Eight Points of the Oxford Group: An Exposition for
Christians and Pagans (Humphrey Milford, Oxford University Press, 1937).
1. God Has a Plan for Every Life
2. Confession is Good for the Soul
3. If Thy Brother Hath Aught Against Thee--
4. The Four Absolutes
5. Be Still and Know
6. Don't Be an Ass!
7. Life Changers All
8. Lo, Here is Fellowship!

What is the Oxford Group? by A Layman With a Notebook
I. The Oxford Group
II. Sin
III. Sharing for Confession and Witness
IV. Surrender
V. Restitution
VI. Guidance
VII. The Four Absolutes
VIII. The World
IX. You

__________________________________________
**That is, using Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love,
and
Absolute (Sexual) Purity to replace the traditional list of Christian moral
virtues and moral vices, which went back centuries and centuries to the
early
fourth century desert monks.

(In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually
preached against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay
and lesbian activity, transsexualism and so on.)

THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIRTUES: justice (fairness towards all),
temperance
(keeping our emotions under control and resisting the temptation to
overindulge
in the sins of the flesh), fortitude (courage), prudence (thinking sensibly
before acting), faith, hope, and love.

THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VICES: pride, envy (or jealousy), anger, greed,
lust,
sloth, gluttony.








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
8095 Ben Hammond Ben Hammond Re: Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure Chapter on Buchman in God Is My Adventure 1/1/2012 8:16:00 PM

Howdy All and Happy New Year from Tulsa ... Ditto on reading Kitchen's Book "I
Was A Pagan" ... His insight on finding a Spiritual Life was helpful to me and
explains the Power of Oxford at the time ... Kitchen bio is also interesting.
Thanks for all the great posts. God Bless You .... Old Ben

- - - -

On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Paul spectrumptg@yahoo.com> wrote:

> http://www.archive.org/details/godismyadventure032951mbp
>
> by ROM LANDAU
>
> Contains an early chapter on Buchmanism:
> "IV. The Man whose God is a Millionaire
> DR. FRANK BUCHMAN 141"
>

- - - -

Two of the major works on the Oxford Group:

Victor Constant Kitchen. I Was a Pagan (1934).

Arthur James Russell, For Sinners Only (1932).

- - - -

Biography of Victor Kitchen:

Glenn F. Chesnut, Changed by Grace: V. C. Kitchen, the Oxford Group, and A.A.
(2006).
http://hindsfoot.org/kchange1.html

0 -1 0 0
8096 Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 12/12/2011 6:12:00 PM

That study I believe is one prepared at the Yale Institute for Alcoholic Studies
headed by Doctor Jellinek and others in the last forty's and early fifty's.

Searcy Whaley studied in their summer school program, and much of his writing
was in reference to that period.

(This was the same summer that Bill Swegan was also a student there, see
Swegan's book http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html )

Searcy was friends with Bill Wilson. As a matter of fact when Bill wanted to
introduce the 12 traditions, he asked for Searcy's help, to which Searcy
replied, you might need those rules and regulations in New York, but we don't
need them here in Texas. Searcy later came to see the value of the traditions
and became a great supporter.

- - - -

Tom tomvlll@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with
non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite
>young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors
>made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled
>problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find
>how different we were from one another; they sought to
>find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics
>had in common. They finally came up with a
>conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time.
>These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of
>the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally
>sensitive, and grandiose."
>
>Does anybody know anything about this study?

0 -1 0 0
8097 Gary Neidhardt Gary Neidhardt Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 12/28/2011 10:28:00 AM

In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, there are these
two statements:
 
2) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, announced in
1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A.  As a result, he brought
more people into A.A. than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later." 
p. 181
 
4) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and irreversible
effect on the numbers and membership composition of A.A. than did its founders,
Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186
 
Are these assertions accurate?
 
Gary Neidhardt
Lilburn, Georgia

0 -1 0 0
8098 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts. What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts. 12/28/2011 2:16:00 PM

As the average child says my momma told me, and the average AA adult says my
sponsor told me. Bill W can justify himself by saying DR Bob and I decided
this,etc. I do not think these statements conflicts with G.C.'s comment.

- - - -

In a message dated 12/28/2011 2:01:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
grandpopmark@yahoo.com writes:

While reading the Twelve Concepts again, we came across an interesting
statement. In the essay on Concept 1, first page third paragraph, reads, in
part, "Ten years earlier - in 1938 - helped by dedicated friends, Dr. Bob and I
had commenced work upon a world service structure."

Just what was Dr. Bob's contribution to the work on our world service
structure? Did he just read and comment upon Bill's work? Did he write portions
of the work now known as our Twelve Concepts?

Mark E., Lebanon, Ohio

- - - -

FROM THE MODERATOR G.C.

Let's think carefully about the relevant dates before we start commenting on
this:

Dr. Bob died on November 16, 1950
Bill W. died on January 24, 1971

April 1962:
See http://silkworth.net/aa/12concepts.html
Twelve Concepts for World Service (Short Form) ... adopted by the 12th annual
General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous on April 26, 1962

0 -1 0 0
8099 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst RE: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 1/7/2012 3:10:00 PM

I do not see how these "assertions" could be verified either way

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst


-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Neidhardt
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011
Subject: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography

In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, there are these
two statements:
 
1) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, announced in
1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A.  As a result, he brought
more people into A.A. than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later." 
p. 181
 
2) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and irreversible
effect on the numbers and membership composition of A.A. than did its founders,
Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186
 
Are these assertions accurate?
 
Gary Neidhardt
Lilburn, Georgia

0 -1 0 0
8100 Pamela B. Tiger Pamela B. Tiger Re: Kitchen's Oxford Group book -- I Was a Pagan Kitchen's Oxford Group book -- I Was a Pagan 1/7/2012 5:31:00 PM

In AAHistoryLovers Message No. 8095
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8095
Ben Hammond mlb9292@gmail.com> says

>>Ditto on reading Kitchen's Book "I Was A Pagan" ... His insight on finding a
Spiritual Life was helpful to me and explains the Power of Oxford at the time
... <<

- - - -

What book is this? Can one still get it? Library, perhaps? Where can I get an
online glimpse of this?

~from a modern Pagan~
pamela :)

- - - -

FROM THE MODERATOR: Victor Kitchen's book is VERY pricey if you start looking
for copies at rare book dealers, but you can read it online at two different AA
websites:

http://stepstudy.org/downloads-2/

http://silkworth.net/iwasapagan/i-was-a-pagan.pdf

0 -1 0 0
8101 joe joe Re: What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts? What was Dr. Bob's contribution to the Twelve Concepts? 12/29/2011 7:21:00 PM

A post at the following link may help explain what he may have meant. Of course,
it is written by the co-founder who wrote the most on the matter -- Bill W. --
and would carry much of his perspective. But it seems from a quick read, that he
did discuss matters of world service with Dr. Bob at the time.

http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/billw/foundation.htm

I take it to mean the world service structure or at the time the Alcoholic
Foundation with its board members. The Foundation was established while Dr. Bob
was alive. The first General Service Conference was supposed to (among other
things) visit the offices and go through the books and check up on the trustees.

Roger W.

_____________________________________________

Here are some excerpts from that document, to illustrate its relevance, but the
whole work should be read by anyone who is interested in the question:

http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/billw/foundation.htm

BILL W. WRITES AN INTRODUCTION:

"To the Trustees of the Alcoholic Fundation

Bedford Hills, New York
April 8, 1947

Dear Friends;

Following our past year of deliberation on questions touching the A.A.
Headquarters policy and structure, I have ventured to prepare the enclosed
material under the title: The Alcoholic Foundation of Yesterday, Today and
Tomorrow ....

Meanwhile it seems right to Dr. Bob and me that this material be placed before
all the Trustees pending the study and report of the Reorganization Committee.

Appreciatively yours,
William G. Wilson"

AND THEN BILL WILSON GIVES A LONG HISTORY OF THE WAY HE AND DR. BOB DEVELOPED
PLANS FOR FORMING AN A.A. ORGANIZATION AND SPREADING THE MESSAGE ALL OVER THE
U.S. AND CANADA:

"... Much discussion in a little meeting called by Dr. Bob and me at Akron in
the fall of 1937 developed a plan [for spreading AA beyond Akron, New York City,
and Cleveland]. This plan later proved to be approximately one-third right and
about two—thirds wrong —— familiar process of trial and error ...."

0 -1 0 0
8102 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous 1/3/2012 12:55:00 PM

un, 1/1/12, hdmozart email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> wrote:

From: hdmozart email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: AA pamphlet on Why AA is Anonymous
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 1, 2012, 3:27 AM




I just discovered that p. 40 of the current pamphlet (P-17), "A.A.
Tradition - How It Developed - by Bill W" includes the 1955 Grapevine article,
"Why Alcoholics Anonymous is Anonymous" also by Bill W.

Hope this is helpful

Larry Holbrook
(410) 802-3099

0 -1 0 0
8103 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox RE: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 1/7/2012 7:27:00 PM

I see neither assertion is footnoted.

Perhaps the authors could be asked their references. I will drop
Sally an email.

Tommy H in Danville

At 15:10 1/7/2012, Chuck Parkhurst wrote:

>I do not see how these "assertions" could be verified either way
>
>In Service With Gratitude,
>
>Chuck Parkhurst
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Neidhardt
>Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011
>Subject: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography
>
>In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown,
>there are these two statements:
>
>1) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians,
>announced in 1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A. As
>a result, he brought more people into A.A. than did the Saturday
>Evening Post article a year later." p. 181
>
>2) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and
>irreversible effect on the numbers and membership composition of
>A.A. than did its founders, Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186
>
>Are these assertions accurate?
>
>Gary Neidhardt
>Lilburn, Georgia

0 -1 0 0
8104 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman RE: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 1/7/2012 7:38:00 PM

I agree with Chuck--


--- On Sat, 1/7/12, Chuck Parkhurst ineedpage63@cox.net> wrote:

I do not see how these "assertions" could be verified either way

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

0 -1 0 0
8105 Compton Labauve Compton Labauve Re: Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? Bill W's rifle: Remington 25-20 or Winchester 25-20? 1/4/2012 5:30:00 PM

Remington Arms Co. produced their model 25 rifle from 1923 until it was
discontinued in 1936. One of the calibers that the model 25 was chambered for
was the .25-20 WCF (Winchester Center Fire).

The .25-20 WCF cartridge was developed by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company
in 1895. The popular Winchester model 1892 was offered in caliber .25-20 WCF
from 1895 until it was discontinued in 1938.

If you could supply me with the exact serial number of Bill's rifle, I would be
able to tell you the exact date of manufacture.

CJ

0 -1 0 0
8106 Charlie C Charlie C Re: Dr. Bob's tattoo Dr. Bob's tattoo 1/5/2012 3:58:00 PM

I just happened to run across this original painting of Bill & Dr. Bob, and
notice that the artist appears to have included something of Bob's tattoo on his
one forearm. It's a minor thing, but it makes me wonder, are there any extant
photos of Bob that show any of his tattoo, I believe it was a quite extensive
one of a dragon was it not?

http://www.etsy.com/listing/77926833/original-painting-of-bill-wilson-and-dr
 
Charlie Cowling
Clarkson, New York

_____________________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR: see Message 7512 from Bill Lash
barefootbill@optonline.net> (barefootbill at optonline.net)

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/7512

Dr. Bob had two tattoos. He had a big 32-point compass on one of his arms, along
with a large dragon. - Children of the Healer.

**********

We invited Bob and his wife to go down to the beach with us, and when Bob
appeared in his bathing suit, we saw he was gloriously tattooed on his chest and
both arms, with rather intriguing figures and snakes and so forth. My wife asked
him what condition he was in when he got that last tattoo on his arm. And he
said, "It was a blazer." - Dr. Bob & the Good Oldtimers page 298.

**********

A tattoo he wore the rest of his life was probably from those days at
Dartmouth: a dragon and a compass tattoo. The dragon wound around his left arm
from the shoulder to the wrist. It was blue with red fire. His son thinks "he
had to have been drunk to have it put there, and you didn't do something that
complicated in a day. When I asked him how he got it, he said, 'Boy, that was a
dandy!' And it must have been, too."

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

0 -1 0 0
8107 Laurence Holbrook Laurence Holbrook Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/5/2012 2:40:00 AM

Apparently Jim B wasn't the only one that believed the Foundation paid off its
shareholders and loans (Towns and the Rockefeller guests) - Bill 'claimed'
repayment in a May, 1955 article in the Grapevine as well as Alcoholics
Anonymous Comes of Age -

Here are the numbers extracted from the Grapevine article -
$4,500 Works Publishing stock (repaid from Chipman loan)
$2,500 Loan from Charles B. Towns (repaid from Chipman loan)
$1,000 Rockefeller donation, also yearly? ($5,000 repaid from book proceeds)
$2,000/year for 5 years(?) Rockefeller guests ($10,000 repaid from book
proceeds)
$8,000 A. Leroy Chipman used to pay off Towns Loan and Works Publishing stock
(the book was now ours - repaid from book proceeds)
Two years later book proceeds paid off Rockefeller, Rockefeller guests and
Chipman loan -
Rockefeller & most of Rockefeller guests gave half their repaid loans to the
foundation -

========================
May, 1955 Grapevine article by Bill W
[Excerpts]
-------------
Vol. 11 No. 12
How A.A.'S World Service Grew
Part I

http://da.aagrapevine.org/article.php?id=93238
http://da.aagrapevine.org/article.php?id=93238&tb=3cT1kYS9icm93c2VzZWFyY2hy
ZXN1bHQucGhwJnE9cm9ja2VmZWxsZXIrcGFpZA>
&tb=3cT1kYS9icm93c2VzZWFyY2hyZXN1bHQucGhwJnE9cm9ja2VmZWxsZXIrcGFpZA==
[Subscription required]
-----
This was the sales argument we needed. With a plug like this, the proposed
volume would sell by carloads. How could we miss? The New York alcoholics
and their friends promptly changed their minds about Works Publishing stock.
They began to buy it, mostly on installments. Our biggest subscriber put in
$300. In the end we scraped up forty-nine contributors. They came up with
about $4500 over the next nine months. We also got a loan of $2500 from
Charles B. Towns, proprietor of the hospital where I had often gone. This
kept friend Hank, myself and a secretary named Ruth going until the job was
finished.
-----
Next day, Mr. Rockefeller wrote to all those who had attended and even to
those who had not. Again he reiterated his complete confidence and high
interest. Once more he insisted that little or no money was needed. Then at
the very end of his letter, he casually remarked that he was giving
Alcoholics Anonymous $1,000!

When the public read the press stories about Mr. Rockefeller's dinner, many
rushed to the bookstores to buy the book Alcoholics Anonymous. The
Foundation Trustees solicited the dinner guests for contributions. Knowing
the size of Mr. Rockefeller's gift, they acted accordingly. About $3,000
came in, a donation which, as things turned out, we solicited and received
each year for just four years more.
-----
Meanwhile, some of the stockholders in the book company, Works-Publishing,
began to get restive. All the book profits, they complained, were going for
AA work in the office. When, if ever, were they going to get their money
back? We had to find a way, too, of paying Mr. Towns his-$2500. We also saw
that the book, Alcoholics Anonymous should now become the property of AA as
a whole. At the moment, it was owned one-third by the forty-nine
subscribers, one-third by my friend Hank and the remainder by me
-----
The help we needed turned up in the person of Mr. A. LeRoy Chipman. Also a
friend and associate of Mr. John D. Rockefeller, he had recently been made a
Trustee of the Foundation. He persuaded Mr. Rockefeller, two of his sons and
some of the dinner guests to loan the Foundation $8000. This promptly paid
off Mr. Charles D. Towns, settled some incidental debts and fully reimbursed
the forty-nine original subscribers at par. They then turned their shares in
to the Foundation. Two years later, the book Alcoholics Anonymous had done
so well that we were able to pay off this whole loan. Impressed with this
considerable show of financial responsibility, Mr. Rockefeller, his sons and
some of the 1940 dinner guests gave halt the money they'd lent us back to
the Foundation.
-----
[End of excerpt]
========================
Similar information from
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age
[Excerpts]
---------------

pp:13 Four years later, Dr. Silkworth had helped to convert Mr. Charles B.
Towns, the hospital's owner, into a great A.A. enthusiast and had encouraged
him to loan $2,500 to start preparation of the book Alco-holics Anonymous, a
sum, by the way, which was later increased to
14 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE
over $4,000.

pp15: Early in the spring of 1938 our new friends helped us to organize the
Alcoholic Foundation, and Mr. A. LeRoy Chipman tirelessly served for many
years as its treasurer. In 1940 it seemed desirable for the Foundation to
take over Works Publishing, Inc., the little com-pany we had formed to
handle the book, and two years later Mr. Chipman did most of the work in
raising the $8,000 which was needed to pay off the shareholders and Mr.
Charles B. Towns in full, thus making the Foundation the sole owner of the
A.A. book and putting it in trust for our society for all time.

pp150: At this juncture, Dick Richardson described the desperate financial
plight of Dr. Bob and myself. On hearing of this, Mr. Rockefeller
THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 151
said, "I will place S5,000 for their use in the treasury of the Riverside
Church. You may draw on this as you like. This will give these men some
temporary assistance. But this fellowship should soon become
self-supporting. If you and the others do not happen to agree, if you really
think that the movement needs money, of course you can help them to raise
it. But please don't ever ask me for any more."
This was very great news for Alcoholics Anonymous, but at the time it seemed
like bad news. It was in fact a shattering blow to our hopes. Nevertheless
Dr. Bob and I were grateful to get off the hook, even for a little while.
The small mortgage on Dr. Bob's place was paid off, and each of us began to
receive thirty dollars a week for as long as the money might last.
Otherwise, we stood just where we had been all along.

pp159: Week after week, Henry raced around among the stock subscribers,
prodding them for their installments. In addition to this dribble of money,
we were able to secure $2,500 from Mr. Charles B. Towns. Most of these funds
had to be devoted to office expenses and groceries for Henry, Ruth, Lois,
and myself, and we kept going on this basis until April, 1939, the
publication date of the book Alcoholics Anonymous.

pp174: The card would exhort them to listen to the Heatter broadcast and buy
the book Alcoholics Anonymous, "a sure cure for alcoholism." Here was
another wonderful idea; all we needed was money. Among our new prospects a
couple of the more prosperous variety had just turned up. Henry went after
them, brandishing his pad of Works Publishing stock certificates. They did
not want any stock, but they would take promissory notes signed by the
defunct publishing company and personally endorsed by Henry and me. Quite
unbelievably, Henry extracted $500 from them.

pp177: One of our New York A.A.'s, Bert T., had a fashionable tailoring shop
on Fifth Avenue which he had inherited from his father. But Bert's drinking
had pretty nearly demolished the business and it was still going downhill. I
phoned Bert and told him what we needed. When I said that Liberty would
surely print a piece in September, he said, "Are you really sure this time?
After all, you and Henry were awfully sure about the Reader's Digest piece.
But come on down. Maybe I can do something."
Bert's clothing clients included many wealthy customers. Scanning the list,
he chose one whom we shall call Mr. G.
Bert said, "Now here's a man who knows all about us. He is ex-tremely
interested in the alcohol problem, though I must admit he is on the bone-dry
side of the argument." When I expressed doubt about accepting help from a
dry crusader, Bert wryly remarked, "Listen, Bill, this is no time to
quibble. We have got to get a thousand dollars from anybody who will give it
to us." Bert went to the phone and asked for long distance. At first, he
boldly asked Mr. G. for a con-tribution. Mr. G. was uncertain. Then Bert
told his customer about Works Publishing, which at the moment had a large
inventory of
178 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE
books but little cash. The Liberty piece, however, would bring in plenty of
orders. Would Mr. G. care to buy some stock? Mr. G. was still more dubious.
Then Bert proposed that Mr. G. make Works Pub-lishing a loan. After all, the
company had a large inventory of valu-able books. Upon learning the true
state of Works Publishing, Mr. G. emphatically declined. Bert tried once
more. "Mr. G.," Bert said, "would you take the promissory note of Works
Publishing for a thousand dollars if I endorsed it? As you know, I have a
fine business right here on Fifth Avenue."
"Most certainly," said Mr. G., "I will take such a note if you en-dorse it.
Send it right down and I'll be delighted to send you the money." This was a
real godsend, which probably saved the book company, for it kept us going
until the late fall of 1939. Bert had hocked his own business, virtually
bankrupt by then, to save the book Alcoholics Anonymous. This was a friend
indeed.

pp185: Mr. Rockefeller's letter, which was addressed to all who came to the
dinner as well as to those who did not, reiterated his high confidence in
Alcoholics Anonymous, the satisfaction he had in knowing that many of his
friends had witnessed the start of a movement of such great promise, and his
deep conviction that our society ought to be self-supporting. He followed
this with a statement to the effect that a little temporary help might be
needed; he, therefore, was giving Alcoholics Anony-mous $1,000. In all
probability this was a mild hint that the other diners might contribute
modestly if they so wished.

pp186: The Board of Trustees conceived the idea of soliciting the dinner
guests for contributions. Since Mr. Rockefeller had made a token gift of
$1,000, it was supposed that the solicitation would not have any large money
result. But it certainly might help. Mr. Rockefeller consented, and an
appeal was directed to the dinner list. As we expected, no contribution was
large, but the donations were fairly numerous. The smallest check was for
$10 and the highest was for $300 (from a gen-tleman who had an alcoholic
brother). The total of these gifts amounted to about $2,000 and this, plus
Mr. Rockefeller's gift of $1,000, put our hitherto empty Foundation in funds
for the first time.
Money-wise, Dr. Bob and I were still in a rather bad way. We were therefore
allotted $3o a week, and enough was on hand to keep
THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 187
this up for a year. Thereafter the dinner guests were solicited an-nually
and the proceeds were always divided in the same way. Four years later we
were able to write Mr. Rockefeller and his friends of the Union Club dinner
that we needed no more funds. By then royalties from the book were giving
Dr. Bob and me the help we needed, and the A.A. groups had begun to pick up
the load of sup-porting the Headquarters office. At that point the A.A.
Tradition of "no outside contributions" went into full force and effect. Mr.
Rocke-feller and his friends had given us something more valuable than
money. They had put A.A. on the map.

pp187: Almost every week we happily added a new pin to our wall map to mark
another group in for-mation.
The sales of the A.A. book steadily increased, and we could now meet the
cost of rent, postage, and supplies, and best of all we could pay Ruth a
fair salary. Lois and I were living rent-free at the Old Twenty-Fourth
Street Club, and we were able to get along nicely on the proceeds of the
Rockefeller dinner and gifts still being made to the "Lois W. Home
Replacement Fund" in the Foundation. Every-body began to breathe easier.
The affairs of Works Publishing, however, were still in pretty sketchy
shape. It had never been incorporated, and the only evidence of its
existence were the stock certificates that Henry and I had manu-factured,
the books in the warehouse, and the canceled checks that gave a rough idea
of how the money had been spent. Four hundred
188 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE
shares of stock, to be equally divided between Henry and me, had never been
issued and could not be issued, under our original agree-ment, until the
cash subscribers had received all their money back.
When they heard that the book was making money, some of the cash
subscribers, including even Charlie Towns, began to get rest-less. They
wanted to know why all of the profits of the book were being spent to
finance a Headquarters for A.A. We replied that there was not any other way;
would they like to see all those pleas for help thrown in the wastebasket?
But a few still insisted on getting their money back, and something had to
be done.
Therefore Ruth and I set about making Works Publishing's first re-port to
its stockholders. We outlined the history of the book project and painted a
rosy picture for the future. From the mass of check stubs, old bills, and
receipts we made an approximate accounting. As I remember, the publishing
company had shown a profit of about $3,000, which had all been spent on A.A.
work at the office.
Again we turned to our trusted pad of blank stock certificates. On a number
of these we wrote: "Works Publishing, Inc., Preferred Stock, par value
$100."
Equipped with these certificates, I went off to Washington. The new A.A.
group there included some well-to-do members: Bill E., Hardin C., and Bill
A. They cheerfully bought these strange and irregular stock certificates in
the amount of about $3,000. Thus we satisfied a few of the grumbling
stockholders and gratefully handed to Mr. Charles Towns all of the money
which he had advanced to make the book project possible. He was delighted
and so were we.
In this period, one of our nonalcoholic friends performed an out-standing
service for us. This was accountant West, of West, Flint & Co., a lifelong
associate of Dick Richardson. He saw that Works Publishing was properly
incorporated and he personally audited its affairs and those of the
Foundation from our beginnings in 1938. Ruth had had no time to keep books,
and I did not know how. So a thorough CPA audit of the book company proved
to be a real job. The tireless Mr. West spent days and days at it, without
pay. When this difficult
THE THREE LEGACIES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS I89
job of unscrambling our affairs was completed, we felt we could ask no more
of Mr. West. From that point on, Wilbur S., a CPA as well as an early A.A.,
took over the job of keeping our records in shape. He did this for a long
time gratis, and even today I doubt if we pay him enough.
By 1940 we had begun to see that the A.A. book should belong to our society
itself. Its shares should not be forever scattered among forty-nine
subscribers, Ruth Hock, Henry, and me. If the Foundation could acquire these
outstanding shares, the book could be placed in trust for A.A. as a whole.
The proceeds of the book would become tax-free if the cash shareholders were
paid off, and they could no longer kick about the book's income being used
to run the A.A. office.
Trustee A. LeRoy Chipman conceived the idea of borrowing enough money from
Mr. Rockefeller, two of his sons, and the dinner guests to clear away
certain debts and to buy all Works Publishing's shares (except Henry's and
mine) from the cash subscribers at par. Every one of the cash subscribers
gladly consented to this; they were happy to get out even. Mr. Chipman
thereupon raised a total of $8,000 dollars, to be repaid to Mr. Rockefeller
and the others out of book profits at a later date. The subscribers turned
in their shares, received their money, and placed our Foundation in
possession of a one-third interest in Works Publishing. A few of the
subscribers, both alcoholic and nonalcoholic, were extra generous. Some sent
all, and some half, of the money they had received back to the Founda-tion
as gifts.
That left two-thirds interest in Works Publishing still coming to Henry and
me. Seeing the necessity of the situation, I agreed to turn my 200 shares
over to the Foundation. But poor Henry, still drinking, was not easily
convinced. For a long time he resisted all our pleas. One day, completely
broke and very shaky, he turned up at the Vesey Street office. He pointed
out that most of our office furniture still be-longed to him, particularly
the huge desk and the overstuffed chair. This gave us an idea. Supposing, we
said, that the Foundation would
190 ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS COMES OF AGE
buy his furniture for, say, $200, would he then turn his Works Pub-lishing
stock over to the Trustees?
Henry finally consented and signed the necessary paper promising to do this.
As a matter of fact we had once before allowed Henry money on his furniture
in order to help him out. But the Trustees gravely produced still another
$200; Henry turned in his stock; I turned in mine; and that is how the
society of Alcoholics Anonymous, through its Trustees, came to own the Big
Book.
------------------------
[End of excerpts]
========================

I am a history lover, not a historian so my opinion doesn't count much, but it
seems like these loans had to be repaid or A.A. wouldn't have 'owned' the Big
Book -

I sincerely hope this is helpful information -

Larry Holbrook
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com
(410) 802-3099

_____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John French
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:07 AM
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying
Rockefeller back

I would love to verify the claim that John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
once said that of all the donations he had given to charity, AA was the only one
that paid him back in full.

John French

0 -1 0 0
8109 John Barton John Barton Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden 1/1/2012 11:55:00 PM

If my memory serves me correctly Joe Worden Jr. was the "wet brain" who would
mumble "Anonymous Alcoholics" at the NY meetings in late 38, early 39. The
legendary story that Bill use to tell was was that from here came the name
Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course we know the name was in use by June of 38,
perhaps as early as April of 38, as the main source document (letter from Bill
to Bob in 38) is undated. Curious to know when he would have done this editing
if he indeed had a wet brain late in 38/39. 
 
Any more info.... Jared or Bill L.?

0 -1 0 0
8110 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden 1/2/2012 1:27:00 AM

John, et al,

Here are a few dates from AA and Al-Anon literature:

March/April 1938: The first writing of Bill's Story took place. (Pass it On --
p. 193) The editing was very possibly done shortly thereafter because the
writing was to be used in the money raising campaign in the summer of 1938.
(Pass It On -- p. 192).

June 15, 1938: Lois Wilson remembers the first use of the term Alcoholics
Anonymous. (Lois Remembers -- p. 197)

July 15, 1938: Bill Wilson used the term Alcoholics Anonymous in a letter.
(Pass It On -- (p. 202)

Bob S.


Bob Stonebraker
212 SW 18th Street
Richmond, IN 47374
(765) 935-0130
Our 4D website: www.4dgroups.org



From: John Barton [mailto:jax760@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012
Subject: Re: Editing of second draft of Bill's Story was by Joe Worden

If my memory serves me correctly Joe Worden Jr. was the "wet brain" who would
mumble "Anonymous Alcoholics" at the NY meetings in late 38, early 39. The
legendary story that Bill use to tell was was that from here came the name
Alcoholics Anonymous. Of course we know the name was in use by June of 38,
perhaps as early as April of 38, as the main source document (letter from Bill
to Bob in 38) is undated. Curious to know when he would have done this editing
if he indeed had a wet brain late in 38/39.

Any more info.... Jared or Bill L.?

0 -1 0 0
8111 James Bliss James Bliss Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 12/31/2011 12:29:00 PM

It is nice to provide the files, but how can they be obtained without
becoming a member of that Yahoo group?

On 12/30/2011 12:21 PM, Robert Stonebraker wrote:
>
> To view the entire first two drafts of Bill's Story, please open the
> site below. A recent post included only the first pages of these
> interesting pre-manuscript drafts.
>
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/
>
> Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts
>
> The first draft is many pages, yet not complete, however the second
> draft is complete. It was edited by the editor of NY Magazine, Joe Worth.
>
> This is on my Yahoo website, so it may be necessary to sign in.
>
> Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
8112 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 12/31/2011 3:49:00 PM

HISTORICAL ERRORS IN JIMMY BURWELL'S TALK:

Just because a speaker says it from the podium doesn't make it true. Jim's
recollection of early AA history isn't the best source to rely on. If you listen
to whole tape it is full of errors.

Here are some of the flaws I found and he hadn't even gotten to the Rockefeller
dinner:

Bill was drinking pineapple juice and gin not orange juice and gin when Ebby
visited.

Bill didn't have his spiritual experience at the exact same time Dr Silkworth
was talking to Lois.

Bill stayed at the Mayflower Hotel in Akron not the Portage Hotel.

Bill met Dr Bob at the Seiberling gate house not at Dr Bob's home when he
brought home a potted plant.

Bill and Bob are said to have talked until midnight not till 7 in the morning.

Dr Bob's last drink was not on the train trip back from the AMA convention. Bill
gave it to him a few days after he got back and sobered up again.

No more than 3 sober in 1935. Really? Amos report shows at least 6 got in 1935.

Bill left Akron and was back in New York by August 1935, he didn't come back in
December 1935.

Did Bill really have 75 members come through his house and none stayed sober in
1936-37? Most lists show at least 15 or 16 were sober during those years.

Idea for a book or pamphlet was in November 1937 not June of 1938.

First two chapters of our book shown to Harper's were Bill's story and There Is
A Solution, not Bill and Dr Bob's stories.

Harper's offers Bill $1,500 not $3,000 for the book deal.

September 1938 set up Works Publishing and selling stock not June 1938.

The Common Sense of Drinking published in April 1931 not 1930.

Bill began writing Big Book in March, April or May 1938 not July 1938.

I think you get the picture. It's not Jim's fault. It's just how he remembered
the story.

Charles from Wisconsin


>________________________________
>From: hdmozart email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>
>Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011
>Subject: Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back
>
>Jimmy Burwell (Speaking in Texas 4-17-1950)
>http://aa-meetings.com/audio/speakers/ind.php?id=89
>
>[53:23] Incidentally we are the only group that the Rockefellers have ever
worked with that paid off every cent that we ever borrowed from - we paid that
$3,600 back
>
>Hope this helps,
>Larry Holbrook
>Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com
>(410) 802-3099

0 -1 0 0
8113 rsmith77379 rsmith77379 Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/1/2012 10:45:00 AM

It would be nice if these drafts were more readily available without having to
sign up for another Group. Could they be posted somewhere else?



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Stonebraker"
wrote:
>
> To view the entire first two drafts of Bill's Story, please open the site
below. A recent post included only the first pages of these interesting
pre-manuscript drafts.
>
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/
>
> Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts

0 -1 0 0
8114 MichaelD MichaelD Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/7/2012 8:26:00 PM

Hello, Thank you for this group. I've seen this question asked in various
forms over the last ~2 years that I have been a member. I'm asking it again, in
this level of detail, because quite honestly I've been struck by the absence of
history in this area.

We write, we wrote, we make a list, we turn back to the list, We put them on
paper, we have written down a lot, we place them before us in black and white.

Where in our written history are documents or talks about what is required for
successful completion of "The Process"

Page 64: In dealing with Resentments we set them on Paper.

Page 64: We listed People, Places and Institutions.

Page 65: On our Grudge list we set opposite our Injuries.

Page: When we saw our faults we listed them, we placed them before us in black
and white.

Page 66: We turned back to the list for it held the key to the future.

Page 68: We reviewed our fears thoroughly, we put them on paper.

Page 68: Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this
all down on paper.

Page 70: If we have been thorough about our inventory, we have written down a
lot.

Page 70: We have listed and analyzed our resentments.

Page 75: When we decide who should hear our story, we waste no time. We have a
written inventory.

Page 76: We have a list of people we have harmed... We made it when we took
inventory.

There are many more examples, but for purposes of my question that's enough.

With all this written instruction in our early history, and seeing as we
serviced people by postal mail in the early days, are there no letters, no
documents, no correspondence that deal specifically with the clear cut
directions in our book? There are no letters asking for clarification? There are
no letters asking how to answer the questions of:

Where were we selfish?
Where were we dishonest?
Where were we self-seeking?
Where were we afraid?
Where have aroused jealously? Suspicion? Bitterness?
What should we have done instead?

Nobody wrote in to the NY office asking for help with these questions and
others? Bill, Bob, Clarence and others never corresponded specifically on these
questions? I find that startling, because these questions deal specifically with
How IT Works. Do we have documents on exactly how we communicated with people
about How It Works? Where are they?

We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone
actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's extremely puzzling.

If anyone could point to anything ... anything at all, from our early history
that is directly about people following the Clear-Cut directions, I would love
to see it. Thank you.

0 -1 0 0
8115 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker First two drafts of Bill's Story available via direct email First two drafts of Bill's Story available via direct email 1/7/2012 11:04:00 PM

R. S. wrote: It would be nice if these drafts were more readily available
without having to sign up for another Group. Could they be posted somewhere
else?

I would be happy to email the first two drafts of Bill's Story directly those
who request. . . . Also an example of Ruth Hock's typewriter font of the first
paragraph.

Email: rstonebraker212@comcast.net
(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

Bob S.

PS -- Perhaps some more PC savvy member could put these three PDFs on a
universal type website.

0 -1 0 0
8116 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/7/2012 11:12:00 PM

Recent information has concluded that the second draft was written by Joe
Worden, and not Joe Worth. Sue Smith Windows, Dr. Bob's daughter,
misremembered the last name during an interview in 1999, sixty years later.

Bob S.

PS ~~ Note message below.

==========================================

On 12/30/2011 12:21 PM, Robert Stonebraker wrote:
>
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/
>
> Open the folder: Bill's Story 2 drafts
>
> The first draft is many pages, yet not complete, however the second
> draft is complete. It was edited by the editor of NY Magazine, Joe Worth.

0 -1 0 0
8117 Cindy Miller Cindy Miller Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 1/8/2012 12:34:00 AM

and the end of the Searcy quote was "cause we got LOVE"

(said to me by the man himself!)

-cm


On Dec 12, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Gerry Winkelman C. E. F. wrote:

> Searcy was friends with Bill Wilson. As a matter of fact when Bill
> wanted to introduce the 12 traditions, he asked for Searcy's help,
> to which Searcy replied, you might need those rules and regulations
> in New York, but we don't need them here in Texas.

0 -1 0 0
8118 Jim Robbins Jim Robbins Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 1/8/2012 1:31:00 AM

There is a reference to immaturity in Harry Tiebot's paper "The Ego Factors in
Surrender in Alcoholism"

"In the process of surrender which the alcoholic necessarily undergoes before
his alcoholism can be arrested, the part of the personality which must surrender
is the inflated Ego. This aspect of personality was identified as immature
traits carried over from infancy into adulthood, specifically, a feeling of
omnipotence, inability to tolerate frustration, and excessive drive, exhibited
in the need to do all things precipitously. The manner in which surrender
affects the Ego was discussed and illustrated briefly from clinical experience.
The object of therapy is to permanently replace the old Ego and its activity."

I have always heard that this was why Bill was so adamant about creation of the
GSC.

- - - -

From: Gerry Winkelman C. E. F.
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:12 PM Bills
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12

That study I believe is one prepared at the Yale Institute for Alcoholic Studies
headed by Doctor Jellinek and others in the last forty's and early fifty's ....

- - - -

Tom tomvlll@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with
non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite
>young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors
>made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled
>problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find
>how different we were from one another; they sought to
>find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics
>had in common. They finally came up with a
>conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time.
>These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of
>the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally
>sensitive, and grandiose."
>
>Does anybody know anything about this study?

0 -1 0 0
8119 corafinch corafinch Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 Study mentioned in the 12 and 12 1/9/2012 12:20:00 PM

Does anyone know of any other psychiatrist who has postulated the existence of
an "ego" which is capable of being totally defeated and permanently replaced? To
put the question another way, who else has used the concept of Ego in that way?
Hobart Mowrer doesn't count,as his professional qualification was in cognitive
psychology.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Robbins" wrote:
>
> There is a reference to immaturity in Harry Tiebot's paper "The Ego Factors in
Surrender in Alcoholism"
>
> "In the process of surrender which the alcoholic necessarily undergoes before
his alcoholism can be arrested, the part of the personality which must surrender
is the inflated Ego. This aspect of personality was identified as immature
traits carried over from infancy into adulthood, specifically, a feeling of
omnipotence, inability to tolerate frustration, and excessive drive, exhibited
in the need to do all things precipitously. The manner in which surrender
affects the Ego was discussed and illustrated briefly from clinical experience.
The object of therapy is to permanently replace the old Ego and its activity."
>
> I have always heard that this was why Bill was so adamant about creation of
the GSC.
>
> - - - -
>
> From: Gerry Winkelman C. E. F.
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:12 PM Bills
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Study mentioned in the 12 and 12
>
> That study I believe is one prepared at the Yale Institute for Alcoholic
Studies headed by Doctor Jellinek and others in the last forty's and early
fifty's ....
>
> - - - -
>
> Tom wrote:
>
> >In Step 12 there is a paragraph about a study that compared alcoholics with
non-alcoholics.. "When A.A. was quite
> >young, a number of eminent psychologists and doctors
> >made an exhaustive study of a good-sized group of socalled
> >problem drinkers. The doctors weren't trying to find
> >how different we were from one another; they sought to
> >find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics
> >had in common. They finally came up with a
> >conclusion that shocked the A.A. members of that time.
> >These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of
> >the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally
> >sensitive, and grandiose."
> >
> >Does anybody know anything about this study?
>

0 -1 0 0
8120 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/9/2012 4:52:00 AM

From Bill W's April 8, 1947 letter, I get a slightly different picture -
although the amounts seem to 'line-up' with the other reports, the comment here
was that several of the Chipman lenders would take only a part payment —— some
none at all.

http://www.aabibliography.com/historyofaa/billw/foundation.htm

Frank A. suggested $30,000 - Mr. John . Rockefeller Jr.

[Excerpts]

"gave us a sum which turned out to be, however, about one-sixth of the amount
Frank had suggested. "

"Amazingly enough, we did sell that stock, $4,500 worth, to alcoholics in New
York, New Jersey, and to their friends."

"As for the shares of the Works Publishing, the 49 cash subscribers were to have
one third, my friend Hank one third, and I one third. We also obtained a loan of
$2,500 from Charles B.T., proprietor of a nationally known hospital for
alcoholics. A friend indeed, he was to wait years to get his money back."

"Bert loaned the defunct Works Publishing Co. $1,000. This he obtained by
signing a note secured by his own business, then in a shaky condition."

"Mr. Rockefeller wrote a fine personal letter to each guest, expressing his
feelings about A.A., and concluding with the observation that he was making us a
modest gift."

"This so—called "Rockefeller dinner list" has since been almost the whole source
of "outside" money gifts to The Alcoholic Foundation. These donations averaged
around $3,000 annually and they were continued for about five years --1940 to
1945."

"Not long since, The Foundation Trustees were able to write the original dinner
contributors, with great thanks, that their help would no longer be needed; that
the Alcoholic Foundation had become adequately supported by the A.A. Groups and
by income from the book "Alcoholics Anonymous"; that the personal needs of Dr.
Bob and myself were being met out of book royalties."

"We realized we simply must, for the first time, ask the A.A. groups for
assistance. The Alcoholic Foundation still had no money save the $3,000 a year
"dinner fund" which was helping to keep Dr. Bob and me afloat. Besides, some of
the creditors and cash subscribers of Works Publishing (the A.A. book company)
were getting anxious again. When, they asked, were they going to get their money
back?"

"About 1942 it became evident that the Foundation ought to complete its
ownership of Works Publishing (the book "Alcoholics Anonymous"). So the Trustees
invited the outstanding cash subscribers of Works to deposit their stock with
the Foundation. Most of the original cash subscribers still needed their money,
and had to wait a long time for it. Several thousand dollars were obviously
required. Of course Group funds could not be used for this purpose.

So the Trustees, spearheaded this time by our old friend "Chip", turned again to
Mr. Rockefeller and his "dinner list." These original donors most gladly made
the Foundation the Necessary loan. This enabled the Foundation to acquire full
ownership of our A.A. book (Works Publishing, Inc.). Meanwhile, Works
Publishing, being now partly relieved of supporting the Central Office, had been
able to pay its own creditors in full. Later on, when our of A.A. book income
the Trustees offered to pay of f the Foundation debt, several of the lenders
would take only a part payment —— some none at all. At last we were in the
clear."

0 -1 0 0
8121 hdmozart hdmozart Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/9/2012 4:45:00 AM

Thank you Bob for copies of those articles -

I posted them on my personal website so AA History Lovers can access the files -
anyone can view and/or download the files from the following links -

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Ruth%20Hock%20type%20Bill's%20st\
ory.pdf

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bill's%20Story%20first%20attempt\
%20r%20&%20B.pdf

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bills%20Story%20second%20attempt\
%201.pdf


They are not indexed, the only way to access the files is from the links -

Perhaps a good home for this information will be found on a more appropriate AA
history website -

Bob, you might be interested in this link on the The Big Book Study Group of
South Orange, New Jersey -

http://bbsgsonj.webs.com/apps/documents/?&page=4

Towards the bottom of the page is an entry:
"Bill's Story - The Original Version
A pre-multilith version of Bill Wilson's Story with photos added to enhance the
experience."

It appears to be a PDF file containing some of the same information that you
have in "Bills Story second attempt 1"

I do hope this is helpful

Larry Holbrook
(410) 802-3099
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com

0 -1 0 0
8122 Robt Woodson Robt Woodson Re: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/8/2012 10:06:00 PM

Quote..."If anyone could point to anything ... anything at all, from our early
history that is directly about people following the Clear-Cut directions, I
would love to see it. Thank you."

Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not just existed, but
actually thrived since those directions were set into print.  Four Editions of
the Big Book have been printed and distributed In the US and Canada alone, with
no change in those directions. There is a direct and continual timeline from
that point which indicates the phenomenal growth of a sober AA Fellowship, and
the widespread, and ongoing, dissemination of those specific written directions
of which you speak.  Or, perhaps we should, or could,  look at how many similar
fellowships that now exist and also thrive using those same twelve steps? I'm
not sure what exactly you are questioning, or looking for here? I've a hunch
that you have some agenda or some particular perceived issue, or something
problematic in mind but that you are being a bit too circumspect, in lieu of
clarity, in that regard. How about those personal stories like "Freedom from
Bondage" that specifically attribute their personal success in sobriety to
working the AA Program? The author, (Wynn C.) also mentions her lengthy
inventory list in particular in that story. Again, perhaps you have overlooked
the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions", which Bill tells us was written, in
part, in response to inquiries from sponsors working with others and to those
with other problems who thought that the twelve steps might be helpful.

Woody in Akron

0 -1 0 0
8123 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst RE: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/9/2012 3:10:00 AM

I am not sure I understand "the" question. Is Michael asking what the book
means, what the instructions are or for documentation of HOW these steps were
taken, specifically by our pioneers? Michael's second to the last statement
copied below::

"We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone
actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's
extremely puzzling"

seems puzzling to me because we have a good written document (an entire book)
that DOES state "Here are the steps we took....." Probably not the answer the
poster is looking for but we do sometimes tend to over-complicate things.

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst


-----Original Message-----
From: MichaelD
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012
Subject: Where is the written history, or the oral history
about the written history?

Hello, Thank you for this group. I've seen this question asked in various
forms over the last ~2 years that I have been a member. I'm asking it again, in
this level of detail, because quite honestly I've been struck by the absence of
history in this area.

We write, we wrote, we make a list, we turn back to the list, We put them on
paper, we have written down a lot, we place them before us in black and white.

Where in our written history are documents or talks about what is required for
successful completion of "The Process"

Page 64: In dealing with Resentments we set them on Paper.

Page 64: We listed People, Places and Institutions.

Page 65: On our Grudge list we set opposite our Injuries.

Page: When we saw our faults we listed them, we placed them before us in black
and white.

Page 66: We turned back to the list for it held the key to the future.

Page 68: We reviewed our fears thoroughly, we put them on paper.

Page 68: Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this
all down on paper.

Page 70: If we have been thorough about our inventory, we have written down a
lot.

Page 70: We have listed and analyzed our resentments.

Page 75: When we decide who should hear our story, we waste no time. We have a
written inventory.

Page 76: We have a list of people we have harmed... We made it when we took
inventory.

There are many more examples, but for purposes of my question that's enough.

With all this written instruction in our early history, and seeing as we
serviced people by postal mail in the early days, are there no letters, no
documents, no correspondence that deal specifically with the clear cut
directions in our book? There are no letters asking for clarification? There are
no letters asking how to answer the questions of:

Where were we selfish?
Where were we dishonest?
Where were we self-seeking?
Where were we afraid?
Where have aroused jealously? Suspicion? Bitterness?
What should we have done instead?

Nobody wrote in to the NY office asking for help with these questions and
others? Bill, Bob, Clarence and others never corresponded specifically on these
questions? I find that startling, because these questions deal specifically with
How IT Works. Do we have documents on exactly how we communicated with people
about How It Works? Where are they?

We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of
anyone actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's
extremely puzzling.

If anyone could point to anything ... anything at all, from our early
history that is directly about people following the Clear-Cut directions, I
would love to see it. Thank you.

0 -1 0 0
8124 Charlie C Charlie C finding and getting books finding and getting books 1/8/2012 7:05:00 PM

Someone was asking about getting Kitchen's "I was a pagan." The moderator is
likely right, it may be pricey to buy, and there are online sites for it. But,
putting on my librarian hat for a moment, allow me to suggest some other
options:

* if you want to buy something and it isn't at amazon, local book dealer etc.,
try abebooks.com. This is a large site hosting titles from lots of used and rare
book dealers.

* if you want to know if a library has something, check your local library
system catalog, they are all online nowadays.

* if your local library system doesn't have something, try worldcat.org.
WorldCat is a shared cataloging system libraries use, and it reflects the
holdings of libraries across the country. WorldCat.org is the free public
version of the database. You can look in there, find records for a book, put in
your zip code to see if a local library owns it; see, your local public library
system may not have shown it, but maybe a local college does, and college often
allow area residents to borrow books for a small annual fee for a card.

* if no one in your local area has the book you saw a record for in WorldCat,
print the record out, and bring to your local library. They can likely get from
some other library outside your immediate area for you through the interlibrary
loan system.

* good luck, and happy AA history reading :-)
 
Charlie Cowling
Clarkson, NY
 
"Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at a distance but to do what
lies clearly at hand." Thomas Carlyle

0 -1 0 0
8125 John Barton John Barton Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group 1/8/2012 6:38:00 PM

Glenn had written:
 
(In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached
against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian
activity, transsexualism and so on.)
 
No doubt there was great emphasis in this direction - sometimes to the exclusion
of what may have really been the original message c. 30 AD. As far as the OG
"teaching" went, "purity" may have also had another (less
emphasized) connotation and that was "singleness of purpose" Here is what Robert
Collis (A Rugger Blue) told Harold Begbie who wrote the narratives for "More
Twice Born Men" (The Life Changers)

"Many believe that when they pray for purity they really and truly want to be
pure. They deceive themselves. It is a mere passing emotion. The root of the sin
is still in their hearts. Two things must go together a deep and passionate
hatred of sin, a deep and passionate craving for God.
 
Ask with singleness of mind and it shall be given you; seek with singleness of
desire and ye shall find; knock with singleness of purpose and it shall be
opened unto you, a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
The reasonableness, the inexorable justice of this teaching, brought instant
illumination to the soul of the young Irishman, and he took that plunge away
from self which baptises the spirit of a man in the living waters of eternal
life. He really wanted the touch that makes personality a whole." -- p.81

One of the books mentioned in the Akron Manual was that of Ernest Ligon - The
Psychology of Christian Personality. This is a wonderful book that examines the
Sermon on the Mount and seeks to harmonize the Christian principles with
psychology. Ligon also related "purity" to "singleness of purpose."

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God ...."

"Here then is the last of the four characteristics of an experimental faith,
purity of heart, which is to have singleness of purpose and to look for the best
in men, with the faith that fundamentally men are good." -- p.60

The essay by Ligon, pp. 52-60, is quite enlightening and may have been the basis
for AA's adoption of the idea of "singleness of purpose"

God Bless

From: Glenn Chesnut glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
To: AAHistoryLovers group AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: The early informal AA six steps and the Oxford Group

 
John Barton jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com) has listed three important
books that we can go to if we want to find good lists of "the tenets of the
Oxford Group." If we look at the chapter headings of these three books, I think
we can put together in our own minds a good rough list of some of the major
emphases of the Oxford Group's teaching:

1. confession of our sins
2. life-changing (conversion = accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior,
then using his power to stop sinning and erase my character defects)
3. total surrender to God and Christ
4. restitution (make peace with your brother)
5. quiet time (silent meditation)
6. guidance (discovering God's plan for my life)
7. gaining strength from the power of the Holy Spirit working in meetings of the
fellowship.
8. the Four Absolutes as the four primary virtues of the Christian life.**

. . . .

**That is, using Absolute Honesty, Absolute Unselfishness, Absolute Love, and
Absolute (Sexual) Purity to replace the traditional list of Christian moral
virtues and moral vices, which went back centuries and centuries to the early
fourth century desert monks.

(In the OG, "purity" meant sexual purity, i.e., the group continually preached
against the sins of masturbation, thinking lustful thoughts, gay and lesbian
activity, transsexualism and so on.)

=======================================
THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VIRTUES:

justice (fairness towards all),

temperance (keeping our emotions under control and resisting the temptation to
overindulge in the sins of the flesh),

fortitude (courage),

prudence (thinking sensibly before acting),

faith,

hope, and

love.
=======================================


=======================================
THE TRADITIONAL CHRISTIAN VICES
(Twelve + Twelve p. 48):

pride,

envy (or jealousy),

anger,

greed,

lust,

sloth,

gluttony.
=======================================

0 -1 0 0
8126 last_town last_town Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/8/2012 8:11:00 AM

I'm unable to find such a quote, but regardless of whether or not the actual
debt was ever satisfied, it seems to me that Rockefeller might have meant
something more symbolic here.
Larry

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, John French wrote:
>
> I would love to verify the claim that John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
> once said that of all the donations he had given to charity, AA was the
> only one that paid him back in full.
>
> John French
>

0 -1 0 0
8127 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/9/2012 1:05:00 PM

Larry,

I could download only Bill's second attempt, but the other two addresses didn't
work.

Bob

===========================================
From the moderator: you'll have to highlight
and copy the entire address, and then paste
it into the address bar of your browser.

Then use your delete key to delete the
backslash \ in the address, before you tell
your computer to go to that address.
===========================================

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Ruth%20Hock%20type%20Bill's%20st\
ory.pdf

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bill's%20Story%20first%20attempt\
%20r%20&%20B.pdf

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/Bills%20Story%20second%20attempt\
%201.pdf


0 -1 0 0
8128 James Bliss James Bliss Re: Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/10/2012 12:45:00 PM

The problem is the apostrophe in the URL. This results in some mail clients not
properly picking up the address.

The solution is to just copy and paste the entire URL from the email rather than
clicking on the 'link' which is not complete due to this method of defining them
in the email clients.

Jim

0 -1 0 0
8129 MichaelD MichaelD Re: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/9/2012 5:11:00 PM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Robt Woodson wrote:
>
> Quote..."> Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not just
existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into print. Four
Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In the US and Canada
alone, with no change in those directions.."


I'm looking for a written history of people who DID the actual directions, or
any detail oral talk about the directions. Have you followed the clear cut
directions? If so , then you made a list of fears that you placed on paper.
And according to the clear-cut instructions "we asked ourselves why we had
them"...

I don't know about you but when my sponsor and his circle of Big Book Thumpers
suggested a list of fears, my first thought was "I'm not afraid of much".. As a
matter of fact, my reputation was that of a man who was afraid of nothing.
Little did I know and come to learn that I was afraid of everything. But that
aside, when my sponsor said out loud in a fourth step fear meeting " I was
afraid of peoples opinions".. I thought.. Who would admit that in public? I
had much to learn, and learn I did. I did a lot of writing. I asked dozens and
dozens of questions about "How It Works"... That book, and that chapter might
as well have been in Japanese to me. With out support and counsel and
direction, I never could have done the clear - cut directions if someone had
simply sent me a book in the mail. And I know that there were many like me in
the early history of AA. That meant they had questions, lots of questions.
Which , naturally, I assume they wrote to the authors about. Because as has been
shown, we grew the fellowship by postal mail in the early days.

So rather than think I am complicating things or I have an agenda, I am
dutifully and honestly trying to locate written evidence of How it Works
documents outside of the Big Book.

One of the instructions in the writing is to write "what would we have done
instead"... and me, being me, would have had no idea what I should have done
instead. If I knew that I would have done it already. So that is something I
may have written New York about. I might have written many things that confused
me? Such as;

What are typical fears?
Should I show my inventory to a prospect?
Should I write an inventory every year?
How many resentments are normal?
How long does an inventory normally take to write
I cannot write well, can I talk to my sponsor about the process rather than
write it down on paper?
If I am afraid of peoples opinion, and also afraid of being unacceptable, are
those the same things? Should I list them twice?

Because I know, from my own experience with following the clear-cut directions,
and sponsoring many men through the clear-cut directions that the questions and
writings are infinite. So I am seeking somewhere in our history where the men
of that day, in some way, recorded something, that they wrote something down.
Where is it?

I had one person who had 50 resentments against 50 different people for the same
thing. I was able to show him that the underlying cause and effect was a
Principle, and he could write the resentment down Once ( one entry in column
one)as a Principle and ask the four questions of the principle:

Where was he selfish?
Where was he dishonest?
Where was he self-seeking?
Where was he Frightened?

These four questions are prompted after we make the list, we ask ourselves why
we were mad, and then wrote what instinct was affected. It tells us to get this
all down on paper. Its in Chapter 5, How It Works.

Anyway, back to my prospect, who asked me "whats an institution?" because the
book says, We write down people, principles and institutions with whom we are
angry. And he did not know what a principle was. So i verbally explained it to
him. In 1942 I may have explained it in a letter.

Again.. these questions had to be being asked in 1944, 45, 46, 47 , 48, 49...
all the way to the writing of the 12/12.. they had to be. And I want to find
one letter, one document, one anything that deals with the clear-cut directions.
If anyone has that I would be very very grateful.

If your interested in The Big Book, and a comprehensive breaking down of the
clear cut directions. I am the webmaster at www.bigbookstepstudy.com I'm a
straight forward, honest guy, I'm not grinding anything but a quest for the
information.

You can check out this detailed approach that I offer on the site.

http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?180-How-It-Works-Resentment-Inventory

0 -1 0 0
8130 Michael Dudley Michael Dudley Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. 1/10/2012 7:07:00 PM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Robt Woodson wrote:

> Quote..."> Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not just
existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into print. Four
Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In the US and Canada
alone, with no change in those directions.."

I'm looking for a written history of people who DID the actual directions, or
any detail oral talk about the clear-cut directions. Have you followed the
clear cut directions? If so , then you made a
list of fears that you placed them on paper. And according to the clear-cut
instructions "we asked ourselves why we had them"...

I don't know about you but when my sponsor and his circle of Big Book Thumpers
suggested a list of fears, my first thought was "I'm not
afraid of much".. As a matter of fact, my reputation was that of a man who was
afraid of nothing. Little did I know and come to learn that I was afraid of
everything. But that aside, when my sponsor said out loud in a fourth step fear
meeting " I was afraid of peoples opinions".. I thought.. Who would admit that
in public? I had much to learn, and learn I did. I did a lot of writing. I
asked dozens and dozens of questions about "How It Works"... That book, and
that chapter might as well have been in Japanese to me. With out support and
counsel and direction, I never could have done the clear - cut directions if
someone had simply sent me a book in the mail. And I know that there were many
like me in the early history of AA. That meant they had questions, lots of
questions. Which , naturally, I assume they wrote to the authors about. Because
as has been shown, we grew the fellowship by postal mail in the early days.

So rather than think I am complicating things or I have an agenda, I am
dutifully and honestly trying to locate written evidence of How it Works
documents outside of the Big Book.

One of the instructions in the writing is to write "what would we have done
instead"... and me, being me, would have had no idea what I should have done
instead. If I knew that I would have done it already. So that is something I may
have written New York about. I might have written many things that confused me?
Such as;

What are typical fears?

Should I show my inventory to a prospect?

Should I write an inventory every year?

How many resentments are normal?

How long does an inventory normally take to write

I cannot write well, can I talk to my sponsor about the process rather than
write it down on paper?

If I am afraid of peoples opinion, and also afraid of being unacceptable, are
those the same things? Should I list them twice?

Because I know, from my own experience with following the clear-cut directions,
and sponsoring many men through the clear-cut directions that the questions and
writings are infinite. So I am seeking somewhere in our history where the men of
that day, in some way, recorded something, that they wrote something down. Where
is it?

I had one person who had 50 resentments against 50 different people for the same
thing. I was able to show him that the underlying cause and effect was a
Principle, and he could write the resentment down Once ( one entry in column
one)as a Principle and ask the four questions of the principle:

Where was he selfish?

Where was he dishonest?

Where was he self-seeking?

Where was he Frightened?

These four questions are
prompted after we make the list, we ask ourselves why we were mad, and then
wrote what instinct was affected. It tells us to get this all down on paper. Its
in Chapter 5, How It Works.

Anyway, back to my prospect, who asked me "what's an institution?" because the
book says, We write down people, principles and institutions with whom we are
angry. And he did not know what a principle was. So i verbally explained it to
him. In 1942 I may have explained it in a letter.

Again.. these questions had to be being asked in 1944, 45, 46, 47 , 48, 49...
all the way to the writing of the 12/12.. they had to be. And I want to find one
letter, one document, one anything that deals with the clear-cut directions. If
anyone has that I would be very very grateful.

If you're interested in The Big Book, and a comprehensive breaking down of the
clear cut directions. I am the webmaster at www.bigbookstepstudy.com I'm a
straight forward, honest guy, I'm not grinding anything but a quest for the
information.

You can check out this detailed approach that I offer on the site.

http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?180-How-It-Works-Resentment-Inventory

0 -1 0 0
8131 hdmozart hdmozart Re: ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story ENTIRE first two drafts of Bill's Story 1/10/2012 11:59:00 PM

Sorry for the confusion, I was trying to make things simple - To err is human,
to really foul things up requires a computer -

This link is an index and should solve all the problems

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/BillsStoryindex.htm

It has links to the 3 documents provided by Bob and a 4th link to version from
the Big Book Study Group in South Orange, NJ -

The original links will still work, but as y'all have observed they may need to
bo copied and pasted in their entirety to your web browser - the index will
simplify the process -

I was only trying to help -

While I have no problem with them on my personal site, they probably ought to be
picked up by a more mainline AA history site -

0 -1 0 0
8132 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/11/2012 12:27:00 AM

Excellent point Larry - if I had only remembered what my college professor's
said, read the question before I offer 'the' answer -

Burwell and Wilson said that Rockefeller said he was impressed in all those
posts - While our literature does make it easy to understand why claim is made,
they do not substantiate that Rockefeller ever said it -

Let's hope that Jay trips over a check from the foundation to Towns for the loan
or a check from the book proceeds to Chipman to add some credence to 'our'
claims -

0 -1 0 0
8133 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 1/11/2012 6:36:00 AM

Agreed Charles, even a neophyte like myself picked up on a few of those
descrepancies -

Please don't take the following the wrong way - I am most appreciative of your
corrections, the truth is always helpful -

Jim didn't get sober until January 8, 1938 with Fitz, Bill & Hank and then a
road trip changed his sobriety date to June 15, 1938 - although Jim's source may
have been Bill himself, obviously, anything he commented on prior to 1938 had to
be third hand information - this is particulary true regarding Akron activities,
Jim wasn't even there - Jim said so himself [23:45], "I know the New York
section much better than I know the Akron" -

And by March 1, 1940 Jim was in Philadelphia -

In between those dates, though I think things are a bit more interesting - Jim
attended the meetings at Bill's house, he was at the Rockefeller dinner and so
on - there's at least a few very intruiging items that he MAY have accurately
described - of course, he is subject to the usual human frailities of faulty
memory, ego, etc -

It's off topic, but I remember in Hank's story, The Unbeliever, that Hank said
that Bill had said, "studied alcoholism ... Jung ... Blank Medical Foundation
... asylums ... Hopkins ... many said incurable disease ... impossible ...
nearly all known cures had been through religion ... revolted him ... made a
study of religion ... more he studied the more it was bunk to him ... not
understandable ... self-hypnotism ... and then the thought hit him that people
had it all twisted up. They were trying to pour everyone into moulds, put a tag
on them, tell them what they had to do and how they had to do it, for the
salvation of their own souls. When as a matter of fact people were through
worrying about their souls, they wanted action right here and now. A lot of
tripe was usually built up around the simplest and most beautiful ideas in the
world" -

Admittedly hearsay [Hank's recollections of what Bill had said to him] and even
worse, Hank was going through severe withdrawal - questionable information at
best - even so, I think it paints a valuable picture of Bill's approach to a
detoxing drunk -

But now consider Jim's claim that Bill got [33:44] "most of our traditions came
from 'This Believing World' by Lewis Browne who killed himself about six months
ago - 'This Believing World' was a cross section of all religions to date, the
rise and fall and why - so we got a great deal out of that to keep from falling
like some of the other spiritual groups had fallen, where there's too much
personalities, too much property and too much politics" -

And Jim said [25:20] "In January, there were three people after three years who
had [at least?] six months sobriety in New York - that was Bill, Hank Parkhurst
and a fella named Fitz Mayo, who was instrumental in bringing me in - They were
the trio that went all around to the different universities, hospitals to find
out if there was a cured alcoholic - they went around and the doctors ... nobody
could say whether they had been cured or not - lots of them said they had cured
ones, but when they investigated they found they'd never find the cure - it
wasn't until 1941, 2 years after the book that we knew "once an alcoholic,
always an alcoholic" - we intimated and said in our book, but we did not know -
John Hopkins didn't know, Bellevue didn't know, Mayo didn't know - they had
never made the investigation" - [ex-alcoholic wasn't changed to
ex-problem-drinker in the Big Book until circa 1948]

Perhaps, Jim isn't all that far off track -

I for one am going to obtain a copy of 'This Believing World' -

0 -1 0 0
8134 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography 1/12/2012 9:45:00 PM

I received a reply from Sally Brown about her sources and am forwarding it to
the list w/o comment. She makes some very good points.

Tommy H in Snowy Danville

- - - -

At 00:48 1/9/2012, Sally Brown wrote:

Hi, Tommy - Good questions! Sorry for the delay in answering.

Regarding Rollie, can't remember how we came by the info about his influence on
AA membership vis a vis the Sat Eve Post article, but it should be somewhere in
the notes we meticulously kept. And all our files were donated 2 years ago to
the Kirk Collection at Brown Univ. Incidentally, it's thanks to the sharp eyes
of AA archivists that we learned we'd misspelled Hemsley as "Helmsley." Guess
Hazelden's indexer & proof reader weren't baseball historians, either!

Vis a vis the statement about Marty's relative influence on AA's "numbers and
membership," that is our editorial comment, but one based on the profound and
far-reaching consequences of her educational efforts. We quote both Bill and
Lois Wilson as well as Bill White and others elsewhere in the book who reached
similar conclusions. It's impossible, of course, to cite actual figures, but if
one considers female AA membership alone, which now accounts for a substantial
percentage of AA membership (at least 35% in 2004), then considers the
additional numbers of lesbians and gays, plus thousands and thousands of men who
heard her and/or were influenced by NCA's outreach to join AA ( amounting to,
conservatively, at least 15% of AA's membership) --- Marty, in our opinion, can
easily be credited with the influence we attribute to her. And each of those
thousands had the potential to attract another person into AA recovery.

No question that Bill Wilson's and Bob Smith's one-to-one approach was also
extremely successful. But the multiplier effect will always be less. Just do the
math.

This is a long answer. I hope it provides some help for those interested. I'm
always grateful for the careful vetting the AAHistory Lovers provide. Maybe
somebody will be inspired to write an up-to-date article on this subject.

Shalom, Tom - and Happy New Year to you all!

Sally

Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ

coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann
The First Lady of
Alcoholics Anonymous

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 310
Palo Alto, CA 94304
Phone/Fax: 650 325 5258
www.sallyanddavidbrown.com

- - - -

Original Message from: Tom Hickcox
To: Sally Brown
Subject: Re: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography

This was posted on the A.A.H.L. today.

I checked your book and neither of the statements quoted have references. Do
you remember where the statements come from?

Tommy

- - - -

Original Message from: Gary Neidhardt
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011
Subject: Sally and David Brown's Marty Mann biography

In the book "Mrs. Marty Mann" by Sally Brown and David R. Brown, there are these
two statements:

1) "Rollie [Hemsley], a star catcher for the Cleveland Indians, announced in
1940 that he had gotten sober with the help of A.A. As a result, he brought
more people into A.A. than did the Saturday Evening Post article a year later."
p. 181

2) "It is also fair to say that Marty had a more profound and irreversible
effect on the numbers and membership composition of A.A. than did its founders,
Bill W. and Dr. Bob." p. 186

Are these assertions accurate?

Gary Neidhardt
Lilburn, Georgia

0 -1 0 0
8135 M.J. Johnson M.J. Johnson Re: Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. Follow up to the responses to my orginal inquiry. 1/12/2012 10:31:00 PM

Wally Paton, southwest area archivist and historian from Tuscon, AZ, and author
of the "Back to Basics" book, claims to have searched through archives from
members of A.A. in the late 30s and 40s. After searching through many of these
archives, he further claims to have never come across anything resembling a Big
Book-based four-column inventory. Instead, he claims to have encountered
multiple examples of what he terms the "assets and liabilities checklist". An
example of this checklist format can be found online here:

http://www.austinrecovery.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Ic-esq23crE%3D&tabid=182

=============================================
A note from Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana): Actually, what Wally found were
multiple printings by AA groups all over the U.S. of what is called the
"Washington D.C. pamphlet" or the "Detroit pamphlet" or the "Tablemate," etc.
It's a pamphlet, written in the early 1940's for newcomers to AA, explaining how
to work the twelve steps.

Wally recognized how marvelously well this little beginner's pamphlet worked,
and incorporated material from it into his extremely popular Back to Basics
book.

If you want to see the words of the original pamphlet, there is a copy here:

(Look especially at the last half of DISCUSSION No. 3 -- INVENTORY & RESTITUTION
-- to see your detailed list of "assets and liabilities" -- see
http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html )

http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Detr2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html
http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html

You should also try to obtain copies (photocopies if that is all you can get) of
the early editions of Ed Webster's The Little Red Book (particularly the 1946
and 1949 printings). This was the instruction manual for working the steps
(including writing your fourth step) which Dr. Bob sent to AA groups all over
the U.S. and Canada.

As far as I am concerned, every reasonable sized city should have at least one
AA meeting a week, for beginners, which reads and discusses the Washington D.C.
pamphlet (Detroit pamphlet, Tablemate, etc.). And it should have at least one AA
meeting a week, again for beginners, which reads the 1949 printing of the Little
Red Book (this was the last printing where Dr. Bob had input into how things
were phrased).

The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions is a marvelous book. But it is also
usually hopelessly confusing to newcomers who have only a few weeks or a few
months of sobriety. That is just my thought on the issue, however, and not
intended to be anything more.

Glenn C.
=============================================

On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Michael Dudley michaeledudley@yahoo.com>wrote:

> **
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Robt Woodson wrote:
>
> > Quote..."> Well, for starters...how about the 72 years that AA has not
> just existed, but actually thrived since those directions were set into
> print. Four Editions of the Big Book have been printed and distributed In
> the US and Canada alone, with no change in those directions.."
>
> I'm looking for a written history of people who DID the actual directions,
> or any detail oral talk about the clear-cut directions. Have you followed
> the clear cut directions? If so , then you made a
> list of fears that you placed them on paper. And according to the
> clear-cut instructions "we asked ourselves why we had them"...
>
> I don't know about you but when my sponsor and his circle of Big Book
> Thumpers suggested a list of fears, my first thought was "I'm not
> afraid of much".. As a matter of fact, my reputation was that of a man who
> was afraid of nothing. Little did I know and come to learn that I was
> afraid of everything. But that aside, when my sponsor said out loud in a
> fourth step fear meeting " I was afraid of peoples opinions".. I thought..
> Who would admit that in public? I had much to learn, and learn I did. I did
> a lot of writing. I asked dozens and dozens of questions about "How It
> Works"... That book, and that chapter might as well have been in Japanese
> to me. With out support and counsel and direction, I never could have done
> the clear - cut directions if someone had simply sent me a book in the
> mail. And I know that there were many like me in the early history of AA.
> That meant they had questions, lots of questions. Which , naturally, I
> assume they wrote to the authors about. Because as has been shown, we grew
> the fellowship by postal mail in the early days.
>
> So rather than think I am complicating things or I have an agenda, I am
> dutifully and honestly trying to locate written evidence of How it Works
> documents outside of the Big Book.
>
> One of the instructions in the writing is to write "what would we have
> done instead"... and me, being me, would have had no idea what I should
> have done instead. If I knew that I would have done it already. So that is
> something I may have written New York about. I might have written many
> things that confused me? Such as;
>
> What are typical fears?
>
> Should I show my inventory to a prospect?
>
> Should I write an inventory every year?
>
> How many resentments are normal?
>
> How long does an inventory normally take to write
>
> I cannot write well, can I talk to my sponsor about the process rather
> than write it down on paper?
>
> If I am afraid of peoples opinion, and also afraid of being unacceptable,
> are those the same things? Should I list them twice?
>
> Because I know, from my own experience with following the clear-cut
> directions, and sponsoring many men through the clear-cut directions that
> the questions and writings are infinite. So I am seeking somewhere in our
> history where the men of that day, in some way, recorded something, that
> they wrote something down. Where is it?
>
> I had one person who had 50 resentments against 50 different people for
> the same thing. I was able to show him that the underlying cause and effect
> was a Principle, and he could write the resentment down Once ( one entry in
> column one)as a Principle and ask the four questions of the principle:
>
> Where was he selfish?
>
> Where was he dishonest?
>
> Where was he self-seeking?
>
> Where was he Frightened?
>
> These four questions are
> prompted after we make the list, we ask ourselves why we were mad, and
> then wrote what instinct was affected. It tells us to get this all down on
> paper. Its in Chapter 5, How It Works.
>
> Anyway, back to my prospect, who asked me "what's an institution?" because
> the book says, We write down people, principles and institutions with whom
> we are angry. And he did not know what a principle was. So i verbally
> explained it to him. In 1942 I may have explained it in a letter.
>
> Again.. these questions had to be being asked in 1944, 45, 46, 47 , 48,
> 49... all the way to the writing of the 12/12.. they had to be. And I want
> to find one letter, one document, one anything that deals with the
> clear-cut directions. If anyone has that I would be very very grateful.
>
> If you're interested in The Big Book, and a comprehensive breaking down of
> the clear cut directions. I am the webmaster at www.bigbookstepstudy.comI'm a
straight forward, honest guy, I'm not grinding anything but a quest
> for the information.
>
> You can check out this detailed approach that I offer on the site.
>
>
> http://bigbookstepstudy.com/content.php?180-How-It-Works-Resentment-Inventory

0 -1 0 0
8136 Andrew from East of England, Andrew from East of England, Re: Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? Where is the written history, or the oral history about the written history? 1/13/2012 5:10:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst"
wrote:
>
> I am not sure I understand "the" question. Is Michael asking what the book
means, what the instructions are or for documentation of HOW these steps were
taken, specifically by our pioneers? Michael's second to the last statement
copied below::
>
> "We wrote a book with clear cut directions, and we have no documents of anyone
actually doing it? Or writing about? If that's true ... it's
> extremely puzzling"
>
> seems puzzling to me because we have a good written document (an entire book)
that DOES state "Here are the steps we took....." Probably not the answer the
poster is looking for but we do sometimes tend to over-complicate things.
>
> In Service With Gratitude,
>
> Chuck Parkhurst

Greetings all in reply,

I was helped by Michael's further post.

It is important, especially when I communicate by written word, that is not
heard, or the writer seen as, as those words are written, that I strive to avoid
all assumption of a deeper meaning than are explicit in the words used.

I know that I can easily summon up words but that sometimes having not
'understood' at its deepest point what the other is communicating, I respond
sometimes almost by rote and do not even 'feel' my own words and can have no
idea how someone else, with entirely different life experiences from me will
understand my meaning(s) - especially those unspoken 'feelings' that are behind
my words and possibly 'feelings' of which not even I am conscious.

I am fortunate in having the facility of writing and email, etc., as I write I
can sometimes 'access' a deeper awareness and then perhaps eventually understand
my own feelings.

We are encouraged to engage and share when the founders of the 'Big Book' tell
us that they discovered that 'honesty' with ourselves is at the heart of the
recovery programme/system/ call it what you will, in the book, Alcoholics
Anonymous.

So thanks to Michael for his further post.

Regards

Andrew from Essex, East of England, UK


>

0 -1 0 0
8137 tedsstop@aol.com tedsstop@a... Re: Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller b... Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller b... 1/13/2012 1:05:00 AM

In a message dated 1/12/2012 9:10:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
email@LaurenceHolbrook.com writes:

Excellent point Larry - if I had only remembered what my college
professor's said, read the question before I offer 'the' answer -

Burwell and Wilson said that Rockefeller said he was impressed in all those
posts - While our literature does make it easy to understand why claim is made,
they do not substantiate that Rockefeller ever said it -

Let's hope that Jay trips over a check from the foundation to Towns for the
loan or a check from the book proceeds to Chipman to add some credence to 'our'
claims -

0 -1 0 0
8138 Lois Stevens Lois Stevens Principles embodied in the Steps Principles embodied in the Steps 1/15/2012 12:59:00 AM

Hello, This is Lois S. a Grateful Member. Is it possible for you to tell me how
did they come to put principles behind the steps. or where did the principles
embodied in the steps come from and in what
year???

Honesty
Hope
Faith
Courage
Integrity .... and so on

Thank You

_________________________________________

The AA Principles and Virtues

Honesty
1. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become
unmanageable.

Hope
Step 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity.

FAITH
Step 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God
as we understood him.

Courage
Step 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Integrity
Step 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact
nature of our wrongs.

Willingness

Step 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humility
Step 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Brotherly Love
Step 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.

Justice
Step 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.

Perseverance
Step 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.

Spirituality
Step 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact
with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us
and the power to carry that out.

Service
Step 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we
tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics and to practice
these principles in all our affairs.

**I understand that the 12 Steps are the Principles we live by, They sell these
as book marks in the area office. So I understand that it's not in our
literature but how did it come about?

I was told that 2 men from Texas sent them in to the Grapevine.

Thank You!

0 -1 0 0
8139 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: Principles embodied in the Steps Principles embodied in the Steps 1/17/2012 2:08:00 PM

At 00:59 1/15/2012, Lois Stevens wrote:

>Hello, This is Lois S. a Grateful Member. Is it possible for you to
>tell me how did they come to put principles behind the steps. or
>where did the principles embodied in the steps come from and in what
>year???
>
>Honesty
>Hope
>Faith
>Courage
>Integrity .... and so on
>
>Thank You
____________________________________________

Wilson wrote an article for the July 1953 Grapevine titled "12 Steps
in 30 Minutes."

It is available online and would help one understand the question and
possible answer(s).

Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8140 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker A new book: 'Rogers Burnham: The Original Man Behind Bill W." A new book: 'Rogers Burnham: The Original Man Behind Bill W." 1/19/2012 2:24:00 PM

A new book has been published by Les Cole: "Rogers Burnham, The Original Man
Behind Bill W." Printed by Xlibris http://www.xlibris.com>

For a description of this book go to: http://www.LesCole-AA.com>

I personally found this book enlightening concerning many facts about Bill
Wilson's early influences; I also enjoyed the previously unpublished pictures,
charts and graphs around the East Dorset and Manchester Village area.

Bob S.

PS -- Les Cole's email is elsietwo@msn.com (elsietwo at msn.com)

0 -1 0 0
8141 Bob K Bob K The little religion that's not a religion The little religion that's not a religion 1/19/2012 4:42:00 PM

I have a recollection of a Bill Wilson quote describing AA as "the little
religion that's not a religion."  Can someone tell me where this is from, or is
my 62 year old brain playing tricks on me ?
 
Sober and happy in a cold, snowy Whitby, just east of Toronto.

bob k.

0 -1 0 0
8142 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: Principles embodied in the Steps Principles embodied in the Steps 1/20/2012 4:11:00 PM

Tommy, do you have a link to where that is in the old Grapevines -- thanks, Norm

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Principles embodied in the Steps
Date: Tuesday, January 17, 2012, 2:08 PM

Wilson wrote an article for the July 1953 Grapevine titled "12 Steps in 30
Minutes."

It is available online and would help one understand the question and possible
answer(s).

Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8143 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Step 11 nightly prayer alterations from Manuscript to Big Book Step 11 nightly prayer alterations from Manuscript to Big Book 1/24/2012 10:21:00 AM

The first full paragraph of page 86 of the Big Book begins with: "When we retire
at night, we constructively reviewed our day. Were we resentful, selfish,
dishonest or afraid."

But Bill Wilson's writing in his original "Working Manuscript" is stated thusly:
"When we awake tomorrow morning we look back over the day before. Were we
resentful, selfish, dishonest, or afraid." [Manuscript page 43]

I find this interesting as how Bill didn't originally consider an Eleven Step
prayer before retiring at night, but happily the original working manuscript was
altered so as we now have available this important nightly procedure.

This "Working Manuscript" was edited (handwritten notes) in mid February of
1939 and "When we retire at night," is not suggested at this time. The said
change must have taken place later in the "printers copy."

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
8144 Laurie Andrews Laurie Andrews Spirituality and Addiction Conference: Chester, England Spirituality and Addiction Conference: Chester, England 1/24/2012 5:50:00 PM

A day conference on Addiction and Spirituality will be held at Chester
University on March 14th (please register before Feb 24th).

Dr Wendy Dossett
Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies
Department of Theology and Religious Studies
University of Chester
Parkgate road
Chester
CH1 4BJ

E-mail address:
w.dossett@chester.ac.uk> (w.dossett at chester.ac.uk)
mobile: +44 (0)7837 958468
http://www.chester.ac.uk/postgraduate/religious_studies

==================================================
ADDICTION: A SPIRITUAL ILLNESS WITH A SPIRITUAL SOLUTION?

10am-4pm Wednesday March 14th 2012
University of Chester
Binks Building Room CBK013

The University of Chester
Centre for Faiths and Public Policy
Department of Theology and Religious Studies

The conference aims to:
* examine the role of spirituality/religion in the understanding of drug/alcohol
addiction and its treatment
* promote dialogue between religious and secular understandings of the
nature of addiction and models of recovery
* develop new theories for understanding the inter-connectedness between
addiction/recovery, and religion/spirituality
* consider the public policy implications of the conference themes

SPEAKERS:

Professor Chris Cook
Professorial Research Fellow in the Department of Theology and Religion, Durham
University
* Director of the Project for Spirituality, Theology & Health, Durham University
* Author of Alcohol, Addiction & Christian Ethics, Cambridge, CUP, 2006.

Professor Jim Orford
Emeritus Professor of Clinical and Community Psychology, University of
Birmingham
* International expert in addictions -- with a special interest in gambling
* 2010 recipient of the E.M. Jellinek international award for excellence in the
field of alcohol and other addictions

Dr Ashraf Kahn
Consultant Psychiatrist at the Woodbourne Priory Hospital, Birmingham
* Honorary Senior Clinical Psychiatrist in the Department of Psychiatry,
Division of Neuroscience, Birmingham Medical School
* Non-Alcoholic Trustee on the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous

Dr Wendy Dossett
Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies, University of Chester
* Principal Investigator on the Higher Power Project

Wynford Ellis Owen
Chief Executive Officer of the Welsh Council on Alcohol and Other Drugs
* Chief Executive of Living Room Cardiff, a major new day-care recovery centre
for South Wales
* Author of No Room to Live, Cardiff: Gomer Press, WCAOD, 2010

Dr Lynden Finlay
Director of the Treatment Team
* Rhoserchan Residential Drug and Alcohol Addiction Treatment Centre

Sandra Hobbs
Representative of Quaker Action on Alcohol and Drugs (QAAD)
* Former counsellor for the ARA Project in Bristol

REGISTRATION (by February 24th 2012)
* Waged -- £52
* Students/Unwaged -- £15
* Cheques payable to the University of Chester
Send to: Carly McEvoy,
Dept of Theology and Religious Studies, University of Chester, Parkgate Road,
CHESTER CH1 4BJ
Email: c.mcevoy@chester.ac.uk
* LUNCH INCLUDED -- please inform Carly of dietary requirements
* General Enquires to Wendy Dossett: w.dossett@chester.ac.uk
==================================================

0 -1 0 0
8145 Tinman Tinman A date I should remember: Bill and Lois' wedding date A date I should remember: Bill and Lois' wedding date 1/24/2012 10:01:00 PM

Bill and Lois Wilson were married on January 24, 1918.

They enjoyed 53 years of marriage until Bill died,
also on January 24, 1971.

Audio Clip of Lois Wilson: http://www.steppingstones.org
(in left hand column, about the middle)

Stepping Stones, the historic home of Bill and Lois Wilson

0 -1 0 0
8146 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? 1/25/2012 1:08:00 PM

A recent post revealed as how the reviewers of Bill Wilson's original
manuscript changed page 43 from a morning prayer, to as now written in our Big
Books: "When we retire at night, . . ." (p. 86).

The reason for this alteration has been explained to me, just today! The Big
Book writers, for whatever reason, avoided using references to the Oxford
Group's teaching (probably referring to the OG morning watch practice).

So, further research of the fourth paragraph of manuscript page 43 has revealed
references to the OG in two different hand printed styles, obviously written by
two different people:

1. On the left side is hand printed in large lettering: Oxford Group

2. On the right side is hand printed in large lettering: Pouring the
mold (this is referring to the mold of OG teaching)

So, this aversion to OG teaching might well explain the incentive for this
paragraph being written into the 'printers copy from : "When we awake tomorrow
morning, . . ." to: "When we retire at night, . . ."

At any rate, I am happy it turned out that way!

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
8147 Richard Dillon Richard Dillon Re: Principles embodied in the Steps Principles embodied in the Steps 1/21/2012 9:52:00 PM

From Richard Dillon, tommy Hickcox, and Warren Pangburn

- - - -

From: Richard Dillon dillonr9@yahoo.com>
(dillonr9 at yahoo.com)

Thank You all. I believe this works:

Where Did The 12 Steps Come From?
by Bill W. (July 1953 A.A. Grapevine)
http://serenityfound.org/history/where_12_steps.html

- - - -

From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

It's in the Grapevine's digital archives
http://da.aagrapevine.org/?q=dahttp://da.aagrapevine.org/?q=da>

Sign into the digital archives and either search for the title or go to the July
1953 issue.

The GDA are a great resource. They have every Grapevine on line, including the
cartoons.

As you can imagine, there is a vast amount of information available. Bill used
the GV to communicate with the Fellowship. All that is there and available for
the modest subscription fee.

Tommy in Danville

- - - -

From: Warren Pangburn wepangburn@yahoo.com>
(wepangburn at yahoo.com)

I believe that they are only people's interpretation of what the foreword to the
12 + 12 says, that they are a set of principles spiritual in their nature if
practiced as a way of life ... etc.

I do not know of any other AA literature which describes each one individually.

May peace, love, and harmony be with you today,
Warren Pangburn

3341 S. 21st. St. Abilene Texas 79605
"It's In The Book" In God we trust.
Home & FAX: 325-232-7727, Cell:325-513-2034

0 -1 0 0
8148 corafinch corafinch Re: From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? 1/26/2012 9:07:00 AM

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Stonebraker"
wrote:
>
> A recent post revealed as how the reviewers of Bill Wilson's original
> manuscript changed page 43 from a morning prayer, to as now written in our Big
Books: "When we retire at night, . . ." (p. 86).
>

That is definitely an interesting page! Certainly it makes sense that the AA
writers would have favored a switch away from the "Morning Watch" associated
with the Oxford Group. Evening prayer including an examination of conscience is
a generic tradition, and wouldn't remind people as much of the Groupers. I'm not
sure if I can follow you on some of the other points, though. These two
pencilled-in comments actually look to me like they were written by the same
person, not different as you said:
>
> 1. On the left side is hand printed in large lettering: Oxford Group
>
> 2. On the right side is hand printed in large lettering: Pouring the
> mold (this is referring to the mold of OG teaching)
>
Do you or your source have a specific reason for reading these as two different
"voices"? It doesn't make sense to me, either, that the "mold" would be "OG
teaching." Traditionally the mold motif refers to God's plan for each
individual, which will differ from that of anyone else. So the Christian task is
to find out as much as we can about the person God wants us to be, then work
toward becoming that person. Pouring the mold, I think, has to do with changing
one's thinking and behavior in that direction, which is not necessarily the same
thing as conformity to a dogma. The anonymous editor (Parkhurst?) may have been
translating OG ideas rather than weeding them out.

Does anyone know of there is a meaning to that little sun/star/circle dingbat
below the words "Pouring the mold"? It looks a little like a compass rose or
Bethlehem star. It could just be someone's doodle, but do we normally doodle on
other people's manuscripts?

Cora

0 -1 0 0
8149 Scatman Scatman Who was spokesman for the distilling companies -- Tradition Six Who was spokesman for the distilling companies -- Tradition Six 1/26/2012 9:12:00 PM

Pages 157-159 in the 12&12, there is reference to an AA member who was offered
employment by a ? liquor association ?, who wanted the member to break
anonymity, and become a spokesperson for the association in their efforts to
educate the public about alcohol.

It seems to me I stumbled across this person's identity somewhere before, but I
can't recall where it was, any help would be appreciated.

0 -1 0 0
8150 jaw24hours jaw24hours Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers 1/26/2012 3:29:00 PM

I have a copy of High Road to Happiness (late 1940's early 1950's) distributed
by the Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, Iowa. (I have as a HTM file & PDF.)

Hello, yes I'm very interested in this pamphlet. I have a copy of the Brighter
Side news letter from 1946. I would share, if interested.
Please e-mail me at

jaw24hours@yahoo.com
(jaw24hours at yahoo.com)

Thanks.

0 -1 0 0
8151 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Re: From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence? 1/26/2012 5:25:00 PM

Thank you Cora!

The following website[s] include a section of the fourth paragraph of
manuscript page 43 from the Original Working Manuscript of Alcoholics
anonymous.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/
and scroll down, or go to

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indyfourthdimension/files/Manuscript%20p%2043.pdf

In further consideration I now also believe that the writer of 'OXFORD
GROUP' on the left side of the fourth paragraph, is the same who wrote
'POURING THE MOLD' on the right side. The doodles under both of these writings
are further evidence that they are the same person. Also the capital letter 'R'
are near-same on either side.

I wonder what is meant by the use of the word 'mold', if it is not in
reference to the OG? It is used on Manuscript page 30 (Chapter 5, How It Works)
stating:

'SHOULD BE STUDIED FROM THE MOLD ANGLE.'

Thanks in advance for information as to how these handwritten inserts relate to
the text of this manuscript.

Bob S.

=========================================

From: corafinch
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012
Subject: Re: From morning prayer to night prayer -- countering OG influence?

> A recent post revealed as how the reviewers of Bill Wilson's original
> manuscript changed page 43 from a morning prayer, to as now written in our
Big Books: "When we retire at night, . . ." (p. 86).
>

That is definitely an interesting page! Certainly it makes sense that the AA
writers would have favored a switch away from the "Morning Watch" associated
with the Oxford Group. Evening prayer including an examination of conscience
is a generic tradition, and wouldn't remind people as much of the Groupers.
I'm not sure if I can follow you on some of the other points, though. These
two pencilled-in comments actually look to me like they were written by the
same person, not different as you said:
>
> 1. On the left side is hand printed in large lettering: Oxford Group
>
> 2. On the right side is hand printed in large lettering: Pouring the
> mold (this is referring to the mold of OG teaching)
>
Do you or your source have a specific reason for reading these as two
different "voices"? It doesn't make sense to me, either, that the "mold"
would be "OG teaching." Traditionally the mold motif refers to God's plan
for each individual, which will differ from that of anyone else. So the
Christian task is to find out as much as we can about the person God wants
us to be, then work toward becoming that person. Pouring the mold, I think,
has to do with changing one's thinking and behavior in that direction, which
is not necessarily the same thing as conformity to a dogma. The anonymous
editor (Parkhurst?) may have been translating OG ideas rather than weeding
them out.

Does anyone know of there is a meaning to that little sun/star/circle
dingbat below the words "Pouring the mold"? It looks a little like a compass
rose or Bethlehem star. It could just be someone's doodle, but do we
normally doodle on other people's manuscripts?

Cora

0 -1 0 0
8152 awuh1 awuh1 The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript 1/26/2012 5:50:00 PM

I agree that references to the “mold angle” and “pour people into molds” is
somewhat broader than just a reference to the Oxford Group. To me, it seems
more a reaction against injunctions and ridged interpretations with regard to
religious AS WELL AS big book content. In Henry Parkhurst’s personal story
“THE UNBELIEVER” (original working manuscript OWM p. 91) he states “If ministers
could only just advise people and not try to tell them what they had to do, he
(referring to Bill) figured religion would be more successful with the fellows
like us … figured most preachers tried to pour people into some mould of their
own.” This seems to be something Henry may have felt even more strongly about
than Bill.

It would also seem to me that Henry may have even argued against injunctions
when it came to the some or all of the 12 steps. Top of p.30 OWM (how it works)
is written “Should be studied from the mold angle”. Then again on p.32 left
margin “all thru-“Bill is known as a person that doesn’t want to pour into
molds.”

The last page of the OWM p.156 ties the two together when it states “We have
said consistently the trouble with org religion is that they try to dogmatically
pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific instructions in the book
such as do this and do that? You can obscure many alcoholics.”

I am assuming that at least some of these remarks in the margins are from Henry
Parkhurst, as that the word “mold” is spelled (as the less common and more
British) “mould” in both his story and the last instance of this word in the
margins. (Let me plead for anyone out there who has a handwriting analysis of
the OWM to share it. I would be most interested to find if all the references to
“the mold angle” came from Henry.)

I find this “mold angle” debate, as it was taking place at the time, to be one
of the most fascinating, as well as one of the most important, in early AA.

0 -1 0 0
8153 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Collected Ernie Kurtz: last four chapters available online Collected Ernie Kurtz: last four chapters available online 1/27/2012 5:57:00 PM

The first eight articles in Ernest Kurtz, THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ (orig. pub.
1999 by Charlie Bishop, Jr., reprinted 2008 by Glenn Chesnut at Hindsfoot) were
put online and made available for downloading several weeks ago at:

http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html

THE LAST FOUR ARTICLES CAN NOW ALSO BE DOWNLOADED:

======================================
9. Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey
http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf

10. Whatever Happened to Twelve-Step Programs?
http://hindsfoot.org/tcek10.pdf

11. Why A.A. Works: The Intellectual Significance of Alcoholics Anonymous
http://hindsfoot.org/tcek11.pdf

12. Here's to Spuds MacKenzie!
http://hindsfoot.org/tcek12.pdf
======================================

These twelve talks represent AA's top historian at his best. All are chock full
of information and thoughtful insights.

0 -1 0 0
8154 aa061035 aa061035 Re: pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook, copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd. pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook, copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd. 1/28/2012 1:39:00 PM

Does anyone have a copy of the pamphlet "Handbook for Setting Up an Archival
Repository (3/96)"?

I am trying to verify the source of the quote:
"The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so
that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our
Fellowship."

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf
says it was the Archives Committee in 1971.

Ernst Kurtz, in his book Not-God, says it was George M at the 1974 GSC (page
294).

Thanks in advance.
John G

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ricktompkins" wrote:

> Frank M's farewell address to the 1996 General Service Conference, with its
Conference theme of "Preserving Our Fellowship-Our Challenge," is reprinted with
permission of A.A.W.S., Inc.
>
> G.S.O. Archives: Window on the Past, Guide to the Present,
> and Light for the Future

0 -1 0 0
8155 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst RE: The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript 1/27/2012 9:48:00 PM

Merton M is the BEST source for confirming Hank's handwriting

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of awuh1
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 3:51 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig.
working manuscript

I agree that references to the "mold angle" and "pour people into molds" is
somewhat broader than just a reference to the Oxford Group. To me, it seems
more a reaction against injunctions and ridged interpretations with regard
to religious AS WELL AS big book content. In Henry Parkhurst's personal
story "THE UNBELIEVER" (original working manuscript OWM p. 91) he states "If
ministers could only just advise people and not try to tell them what they
had to do, he (referring to Bill) figured religion would be more successful
with the fellows like us . figured most preachers tried to pour people into
some mould of their own." This seems to be something Henry may have felt
even more strongly about than Bill.

It would also seem to me that Henry may have even argued against injunctions
when it came to the some or all of the 12 steps. Top of p.30 OWM (how it
works) is written "Should be studied from the mold angle". Then again on
p.32 left margin "all thru-"Bill is known as a person that doesn't want to
pour into molds."

The last page of the OWM p.156 ties the two together when it states "We have
said consistently the trouble with org religion is that they try to
dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific
instructions in the book such as do this and do that? You can obscure many
alcoholics."

I am assuming that at least some of these remarks in the margins are from
Henry Parkhurst, as that the word "mold" is spelled (as the less common and
more British) "mould" in both his story and the last instance of this word
in the margins. (Let me plead for anyone out there who has a handwriting
analysis of the OWM to share it. I would be most interested to find if all
the references to "the mold angle" came from Henry.)

I find this "mold angle" debate, as it was taking place at the time, to be
one of the most fascinating, as well as one of the most important, in early
AA.

0 -1 0 0
8156 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Manuscript - Meaning of Pouring the mould Manuscript - Meaning of Pouring the mould 1/27/2012 10:10:00 PM

As of recent, on AAHL, recent queries have appeared concerning the meaning of
word "mould" and the Phrase, "Pouring the mould," etc.

The handwritten note on Manuscript Page 156, states: "We have said
constantly the trouble with org [anized] religion is that they try to
dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give specific
instructions in the book such as saying do this and do that." "You can
obscure many alcoholics."

I believe this explains the mystery, at least for yours truly.

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
8157 ricktompkins ricktompkins RE: AA Archives purpose AA Archives purpose 1/29/2012 7:07:00 PM

The source of quote is the Trustees Archives Committee.

In its Policy statement, the quote was always included in its Scope and
Purpose for the "Handbook for Setting Up an Alcoholics Anonymous Archival
Repository." My fading photocopies of 1/89 and 2/92 have no changes and the
same statement is included in the AAWS M-441 "Archives Workbook." Both the
Handbooks and the Workbooks (since 2001) are works in progress and are
updated every year but the Purpose wording hasn't changed.

In A.A. Archivist Frank M.'s farewell talk to the 1998 General Service
Conference, he attributed the quote to Bill W. "The main purpose of the
Archives, consistent with AA's primary purpose, is to keep the record
straight so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history
of our Fellowship." That phrase very well could have been written down by
Bill somewhere, sometime. Here's another quip from Bill in 1957

".It is highly important that the factual material be placed in our files in
such a way that there can be no substantial distortion." Perhaps a
paraphrase of that writing, also printed in each Handbook and Workbook, led
to the 1973 Purpose statement.

Seeing that it was voted into place by the Trustees Archives Committee and
reported by its Chairman George G. at the 1974 GSC, I'd call it a Committee
consensus.

Rick, Illinois

_____

From: AAHistoryovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aa061035
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:39 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook,
copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd.

Does anyone have a copy of the pamphlet "Handbook for Setting Up an Archival
Repository (3/96)"?
I am trying to verify the source of the quote:
"The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so
that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our
Fellowship."
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf
says it was the Archives Committee in 1971.
Ernst Kurtz, in his book Not-God, says it was George M at the 1974 GSC (page
294).
Thanks in advance.
John G
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
, "ricktompkins"
wrote:
> Frank M's farewell address to the 1996 General Service Conference, with
its Conference theme of "Preserving Our Fellowship-Our Challenge," is
reprinted with permission of A.A.W.S., Inc.
> G.S.O. Archives: Window on the Past, Guide to the Present,
> and Light for the Future

0 -1 0 0
8158 Joanna Joanna Tom Powers Tom Powers 1/31/2012 3:51:00 PM

Recently I heard that Tom Powers passed away - does anyone have the details on
his death?

thanks,

Joanna

0 -1 0 0
8159 brian koch brian koch RE: Tom Powers Tom Powers 2/1/2012 9:01:00 AM

i saw reference to Tom Powers Sr dying in 2005. see this link.
http://www.austinrecovery.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=mSr2iZYylT4%3D&tabid=104


Brian

- - - -

From: intuitiveart@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012
Subject: Tom Powers

Recently I heard that Tom Powers passed away - does anyone have the details on
his death?

thanks,

Joanna

0 -1 0 0
8160 dorothy.banks97 dorothy.banks97 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 1/30/2012 2:15:00 AM

On 31st March the first recorded meeting was held in Room 202 of the Dorchester
Hotel, London, at the invitation of Grace O, a visiting American member who had
previously met Canadian Bob in a London Dean St restaurant. The Dorchester
meeting comprised, Grace, Bob B, Chris L B, Vernon W (an American serviceman),
Norman Rees-Watkins (S Croydon), Pat F (London), Ward Williams (American).
Canadian Bob was made Group Secretary.

Canadian Bob recalls the meeting,"It was Grace O. who really triggered off the
inception of AA in England. She had written to me before she and her husband
embarked at New York on one of the Queens.

Can anyone there at history lovers update on the happy fate of the usa members
who attended please?

0 -1 0 0
8161 brian koch brian koch Henry Parkhurst Henry Parkhurst 1/30/2012 7:28:00 AM

I have heard much about Merton M, but have also heard that people are having
trouble contacting him. I was hoping he could be a source for my attempts to
find the final resting place, if there is one, of Hank Parkhurst. Can anyone
provide me with contact info for Merton, or pass on mine to him?

Brian Koch
215-390-7508
kochbrian@hotmail.com
(kochbrian at hotmail.com)

- - - -

From: ineedpage63@cox.net
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012
Subject: RE: The mold angle -- Henry Parkhurst and orig. working manuscript

Merton M is the BEST source for confirming Hank's handwriting

0 -1 0 0
8162 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: AA Archives purpose AA Archives purpose 1/30/2012 4:58:00 PM

The following is from the Final Conference Report for1974 page 24.

Hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin


Archival Library Organized ; Early A.A. Records Preserved

TRUSTEES' COMMITTEE: The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the
record straight, so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the
history of our Fellowship. The library can give A.A. a sense of its own past and
the opportunity to study it. There is also interest in A.A. among sociologists,
historians, and other professionals who want to find out what A.A. is and how it
started. The archives should be accessible to historians, as well as to A.A.'s,
but each request should be individually judged.

Bill's files from Stepping Stones have been integrated with his files at
G.S.O. Early, irreplaceable A.A. material has been placed in a safe-deposit
box, with copies made for the library. Directories, Conference Reports, and
bulletins have been bound. Letters were sent to 190 old-time A.A.'s asking
their help; 105 affirmative replies and much material have been sent in. Files
of the first 100 groups in the U.S. and Canada have been collected. Papers are
being prepared for microfilming, and steps are being taken to put sound
material on permanent tape.
-George G.. chairman

BIO:
GEORGE N. GORDON, Ph.D. (110-15 11 Rd., Forest Hilis, N.Y. 11375), was elected a
director of the A.A. Grapevine in 1969 and has served as its treasurer since
1970. Since his last drink, in 1964. he has served his local group in most
offices and the New York Intergroup Association on several committees. He is
director of the Communications Center at Hofstra University in Hempstead, N.Y.
and author or co-author of 13 nonfiction books, 11 of them written after joining
A.A. George is a member of the Finance Committee in the capacity of Grapevine
treasurer, a member of the Literature, Policy, Long-Range Planning. and Employee
Retirement Committees, and chairman of the Archives Committee.


>________________________________
>From: ricktompkins ricktompkins@comcast.net>
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:07 PM
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: AA Archives purpose
>

>The source of quote is the Trustees Archives Committee.
>
>In its Policy statement, the quote was always included in its Scope and
>Purpose for the "Handbook for Setting Up an Alcoholics Anonymous Archival
>Repository." My fading photocopies of 1/89 and 2/92 have no changes and the
>same statement is included in the AAWS M-441 "Archives Workbook." Both the
>Handbooks and the Workbooks (since 2001) are works in progress and are
>updated every year but the Purpose wording hasn't changed.
>
>In A.A. Archivist Frank M.'s farewell talk to the 1998 General Service
>Conference, he attributed the quote to Bill W. "The main purpose of the
>Archives, consistent with AA's primary purpose, is to keep the record
>straight so that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history
>of our Fellowship." That phrase very well could have been written down by
>Bill somewhere, sometime. Here's another quip from Bill in 1957
>
>".It is highly important that the factual material be placed in our files in
>such a way that there can be no substantial distortion." Perhaps a
>paraphrase of that writing, also printed in each Handbook and Workbook, led
>to the 1973 Purpose statement.
>
>Seeing that it was voted into place by the Trustees Archives Committee and
>reported by its Chairman George G. at the 1974 GSC, I'd call it a Committee
>consensus.
>
>Rick, Illinois
>
>_____
>
>From: AAHistoryovers@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aa061035
>Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:39 PM
>To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: pp. 109-116 from Area 20 historybook,
>copyright 2003 by NIA, Ltd.
>
>Does anyone have a copy of the pamphlet "Handbook for Setting Up an Archival
>Repository (3/96)"?
>I am trying to verify the source of the quote:
>"The main purpose of the archival library is to keep the record straight, so
>that myth does not predominate over fact regarding the history of our
>Fellowship."
>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/f-47_theaaarchives.pdf
>says it was the Archives Committee in 1971.
>Ernst Kurtz, in his book Not-God, says it was George M at the 1974 GSC (page
>294).
>Thanks in advance.
>John G

0 -1 0 0
8163 donaldl.mansell donaldl.mansell AA Today AA Today 1/31/2012 5:29:00 PM

In "As Bill Sees It" the description says that the quotes come from Grapevine
and individual letters and "AA Today". I've searched but came up empty when
looking for "AA Today". Any suggestions?
Thank you.

- - - -

NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR G.C.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5579

AA Today: a special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating the 25th
Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous (copyright 1960, 1988)

0 -1 0 0
8164 bernadette macleod bernadette macleod Paying the hotel bill at the Mayflower Hotel Paying the hotel bill at the Mayflower Hotel 1/27/2012 11:34:00 AM

How did Bill pay for the hotel bill in Akron when he was short of money? How
much would a hotel bill cost approximately back then?

Thanks, bernadette m.
King City Group
King City, Ontario

- - - -

NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR G.C. -- from our past messages

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5529
From: "Robert Stonebraker" rstonebraker212@comcast.net>
(rstonebraker212 at comcast.net)

How Bill Wilson's hotel bill was paid? A
possible answer could lie in the fact that
Bill received living expenses from the firm
of Baer and Company who sent Bill to Akron
to attempt a take-over of the Akron National
Rubber Company. Pass It On, p. 135, third
full paragraph: "He had little money, but
they promised to support his efforts."

Apparently they did, throughout that entire
summer; page 42 of Not God, first full
paragraph, states: "Early in September, Bill
Wilson's proxy battle met another apparent
defeat. His sponsors soured on projects
continuing costs, and Bill departed for New
York."

Of course, one wonders whether Henrietta
Seiberling might have paid it for him before
he moved to the Portage Lodge that month.

Bob S.

0 -1 0 0
8165 Keith Keith Re: Tom Powers Tom Powers 2/1/2012 5:00:00 PM

are you refering to Tom senior or Tom junior. You can find Tom Powers,Jr at
alladdictsanonymous.com

0 -1 0 0
8166 pamelafro88 pamelafro88 Re: Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery 2/5/2012 2:20:00 AM

This is an old thread, but has this been authenticated/discounted yet? The link
to which the thread refers is no longer available
Pam F

- - - -

From: Azor521@aol.com (Azor521 at aol.com)
Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm
Subject: Re: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others

Dr. Bob wrote this prescription --
1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others:

http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html

- - - -

Message #3113
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3113

> The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a
prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the
bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top.
>
> The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the
handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have
been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed
on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed
pretty convincing to me.
>
> But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in the
group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the
prescription?

0 -1 0 0
8167 John Williams John Williams Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers list of all known early AA pamphlets and can openers 1/28/2012 4:31:00 PM

OK wow, what a response. I was actually looking for the 20 page PDF of the
Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, IAs 12 step pamphlet, and/or copies of their
newsletter.

I have a copy of a newsletter I picked up at the Oelwein, IA Alano club. If
anyone has more of these newsletters or the full 20 page pamphlet of the 12
steps that they published in 1940s, I would sure like a copy. The group was
using the four absolutes in their 4th step guide and is good example of how the
groups functioned in Iowa during the 40s and 50s. The Brighter Side Group became
the West side group which is still in operation today.

________________________________
From: jaw24hours jaw24hours@yahoo.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 2:29 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: list of all known early AA pamphlets and can
openers

I have a copy of High Road to Happiness (late 1940's early 1950's) distributed
by the Brighter Side Group of Waterloo, Iowa. (I have as a HTM file & PDF.)

Hello, yes I'm very interested in this pamphlet. I have a copy of the Brighter
Side news letter from 1946. I would share, if interested.
Please e-mail me at

jaw24hours@yahoo.com
(jaw24hours at yahoo.com)

Thanks.

0 -1 0 0
8168 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/1/2012 2:54:00 PM

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=72971769

Henry G "Hank" Parkhurst

0 -1 0 0
8169 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: AA Today AA Today 2/1/2012 3:15:00 PM

With patience, you can obtain a copy off of eBay. They are offered
every so often.

Tommy H in Danville

At 17:29 1/31/2012, donaldl.mansell wrote:

>In "As Bill Sees It" the description says that the quotes come from
>Grapevine and individual letters and "AA Today". I've searched but
>came up empty when looking for "AA Today". Any suggestions?
>Thank you.

- - - -
>
>NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR G.C.
>
>http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5579
>
>AA Today: a special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating
>the 25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous (copyright 1960, 1988)

0 -1 0 0
8171 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: AA Today AA Today 2/1/2012 4:28:00 PM

PBA Galleries, Auctioneers and Appraisers
133 Kearny Street, San Francisco, CA 94108
http://www.pbagalleries.com/search/item118528.php?&PHPSESSID=eeb941

Heading: (Alcoholics Anonymous)
Author: [Wilson, William (Bill W.)]
Title: AA Today: A special publication by the AA Grapevine commemorating the
25th Anniversary of Alcoholics Anonymous
Place: New York
Publisher: AA Grapevine / Cornwall Press
Date: 1960

Sale Date 08/15/2002
Price realized $ 920

Description:
111 pp. Illustrated with drawings, comics and photographs throughout. (4to)
11x8½, light blue cloth, lettered in black and white. First Edition, First
Printing.
Inscribed by the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous William "Bill W." Wilson in
the year of publication on front free endpaper: "Dear Sharin Richards - With
thus all the thanks...for your wonderful help! Devotedly, Bill Wilson, NY,
8/30/60." Includes two written contributions by Bill Wilson, also an essay "Man
and Reality" by Aldous Huxley. No dust jacket, as issued.

0 -1 0 0
8172 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: AA Today AA Today 2/1/2012 11:42:00 PM

A.A. TODAY -- The AA Grapevine published this hard bound book especially for the
1960 International Convention and AA's 25th anniversary. This was the very first
book published by the Grapevine. In the 1st printing, 30,000 were printed and
12,000 were sold by advanced sales. The hard bound book went through 3 printings
and the last one sold out in 1964. The 1979 General Service Conference approved
reprinting this book and in 1980 was back in print in paper back form. I am not
sure when they stopped printing this booklet, but I believe it was in the late
1990's. (The Grapevine could not determine when they stopped selling this book)

If you can get your hands on a June 1960 AA Grapevine magazine, you will find it
has all of the same articles as the book. You can read these articles in the
on-line AA Grapevine Digital Archives.

Hope this helps

Charles from Wisconsin

0 -1 0 0
8173 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews Re: First AA meeting in London, England 1948 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 2/3/2012 3:11:00 AM

Re posting 8160: Grace O. was the wife of Fulton Oursler, author and editor, who
was an Oxford grouper and served as member of the Alcoholic Foundation and the
Grapevine editorial board.

- - - -

Message #8160
From: "dorothy.banks97" ullathorne@toucansurf.com>
(ullathorne at toucansurf.com)
First AA meeting in London, England 1948

On 31st March the first recorded meeting was held in Room 202 of the Dorchester
Hotel, London, at the invitation of Grace O, a visiting American member who had
previously met Canadian Bob in a London Dean St restaurant. The Dorchester
meeting comprised, Grace, Bob B, Chris L B, Vernon W (an American serviceman),
Norman Rees-Watkins (S Croydon), Pat F (London), Ward Williams (American).
Canadian Bob was made Group Secretary.

Canadian Bob recalls the meeting,"It was Grace O. who really triggered off the
inception of AA in England. She had written to me before she and her husband
embarked at New York on one of the Queens.

Can anyone there at history lovers update on the happy fate of the usa members
who attended please?

0 -1 0 0
8174 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? 2/3/2012 5:30:00 AM

The cover of "Alcohol, Addiction and Christian Ethics"; Christopher C. H. Cook;
Cambridge University Press; 2006. shows a picture from the Temperance Examiner
(November 1, 1839) in which a man is being held by each arm by a drunk, who
wants him to go to the pub, and Tee-totaller, pulling him in the opposite
direction. The picture is reproduced inside the book with the caption:

"Which way shall I turn me?" or Ruin and Salvation.

Old Fuddler: Come along, Charley, my boy; come along! Only one glass. A short
life but a merry one, that's my ticket.
Charles: Well, you're a good natured fellow, tho' you've ruined yourself by
drinking. I was thinking about abstaining; but surely one glass won't hurt me!
Tee-totaller: Don't listen to him, my dear Charles. You see what drinking has
done for him. If you take one glass you won't know when to stop. You promised to
go to our meeting. Come and learn the blessings of Total Abstinence.

Over 170 years ago Tee-totaller knew that it was the first drink that did the
damage - so, don't drink and go to meetings!

BTW what meetings would they be?

_____________________________________

TO SEE A PICTURE OF THE COVER (AND SOME SHORT REVIEWS OF THE BOOK) SEE:

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/192/4/316.2.full

http://www.dur.ac.uk/spirituality.health/?page_id=53

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/alcohol-addiction-and-christian-ethics-christoph\
er-c-h-cook/1100955223?ean=9780521091343&itm=1&usri=christopher+cook%2c+alcohol%\
2c+addiction+and+christian+ethics


0 -1 0 0
8175 Matt Dingle Matt Dingle Re: Tom Powers Tom Powers 2/3/2012 7:17:00 AM

The address is http://www.alladdictsanonymous.org and Tom P. Sr.'s obit as
follows:

Thomas E. Powers
Founder East Ridge, 93
Thomas E. Powers of Hankins, the founder with his son, Tom Powers Jr., of East
Ridge in Hankins, died Wednesday, April 27, 2005, at his home. He was 93 years
of age.
The son of the late Thomas Francis and Katherine Votruba Powers, he was born
June 7, 1911, in Chadron, Neb.
East Ridge is a recovery center for people with all kinds of addictions. During
his business career he worked as a commercial artist, radio and television
program director, advertising and marketing executive, author, editor and
publisher. Since 1964 he was chairman and general supervisor of all the
businesses and projects of East Ridge.
Mr. Powers is survived by his wife, Meredith Powers, at home; a son, Thomas R.
Powers; four daughters, Katherine Curtis, Clare Renzulli, Joan Stein and Rachel
Dingle; 16 grandchildren; and eight great-grandchildren.
Private funeral services will be held Friday at the East Ridge Chapel.
Graveside services and burial will be made in the Callicoon Cemetery.

0 -1 0 0
8176 Cindy Miller Cindy Miller Re: First AA meeting in London, England 1948 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 2/5/2012 3:33:00 PM

The walls of the 4021 Clubhouse (cs. 1946) have many framed re-prints
of pages from Jim Burwell's scrapbook.

On one of these pages is a printed Christmas card where Jim had
written: "Our Lone England Member"

It is signed :
Dorothy Hopkinson-Evans
68 Conaugh Rd.
London, W14

and says Christmas 1945 at the top.

-- Cindy Miller
Philadelphia, PA
USA

0 -1 0 0
8177 jax760 jax760 Re: Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery 2/6/2012 1:01:00 PM

I spotted this several years ago and never knew that anyone had previously
discussed it. I never brought it up because I thought it to be of little
consequence. However, I agree the document is a forgery as both hand written
phrases "always remember it" and Dr Bob's signature are perfectly super imposed
from two different letters written by Dr. Bob to Barry Collins in 1944 and
1946.I do have copies of the letters as well as the prescription pad "forgery."

Of course this type of thing should never be condoned as it distorts AA history.

Thanks for bringing this up and the opportunity to respond.

God Bless

John Barton

______________________________________________

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
"pamelafro88" wrote:
>
> This is an old thread, but has this been authenticated/discounted yet? The
link to which the thread refers is no longer available
> Pam F
>
> - - - -
>
> From: Azor521@... (Azor521 at aol.com)
> Date: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:01pm
> Subject: Re: Trust God, Clean House, Help Others
>
> Dr. Bob wrote this prescription --
> 1. Trust God. 2. Clean House. 3. Help Others:
>
> http://www.nicd.us/AAand12-stepresources.html
>
> - - - -
>
> Message #3113
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/3113
>
> > The phrase "1. Trust God, 2. Clean House, 3. Help Others" is typed on a
prescription pad with Dr. Bob's name at the top. His signature is at the
bottom, and the phrase "always remember it" is in handwriting at the top.
> >
> > The problem is that a good AA historian once showed me that both the
handwritten phrase at the top, and the signature at the bottom, seem to have
been scanned and copied from a genuine letter by Dr. Bob, and then superimposed
on the picture of the prescription pad using a computer art program. It seemed
pretty convincing to me.
> >
> > But I cannot remember where the genuine letter is found. Does anybody in
the group know anything more about this issue over the authenticity of the
prescription?

0 -1 0 0
8178 john wikelius john wikelius Re: AA Today AA Today 2/6/2012 4:29:00 PM

1st ptg hardcover 1960
2d ptg hardcover 1960
3d ptg hardcover 1960
4th ptg sc 1979
5th ptg sc 1981
6th ptg sc 1988
7th ptg sc 1990
8th ptg sc 1994

0 -1 0 0
8179 B B No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 10:57:00 AM

Friends,

Having read some of the Hartigan book on Bill W for a second time, I am
searching to verify some of his information. Specifically, in the
section/chapter titled "The Other Woman" he talks about Helen Wynn. In part of
this chapter he mentions that Bill secured her a job at the AA grapevine, and
she rose to the position of Editor of AA Grapevine. I find this hard to believe
on the surface as she had no qualifications in the print media industry. He
further states that she left the grapevine in 1962. I emailed the Grapevine and
asked for a list of all editors of the magazine since its inception, and
received a list from the office manager. No Helen Wynn. However, after looking
more closely at the list, there was a time gap, the year 1961. This would
possibly coincide with Helen's being in the position, if it were true. I
re-queried, and was told that possibly the managing editor was doing the job at
the time. I re-re-queried and asked for that persons name so as to be able to
complete the timeline...The last email was "Unfortunately, I cannot find any
information on that gap...sorry." Now it seems very unusual that no information
would exist from the 60's regarding who was running our meeting in print. I
sense some attempt to erase some particularly uncomfortable, to some, piece of
our history. Am i paranoid? Certainly those of us with an interest and knowledge
of AA history know of Helen's existence and role in Bills life. Does anyone have
any grapevine editor information from this time period? Any thoughts about the
absense of information, at least according to the grapevine? Thanks all.

0 -1 0 0
8180 pamelafro88 pamelafro88 Re: AA Today AA Today 2/7/2012 6:17:00 AM

GSO in New York has a series of "AA Today"in their library - have used them for
research in situ.

0 -1 0 0
8181 Doc G Doc G Jimmy Hodges passed away Friday, February 3, 2012 Jimmy Hodges passed away Friday, February 3, 2012 2/7/2012 1:07:00 AM

Hi All

As many of know Jimmy Hodges passed away peacefully at home this past Friday
evening, February 3, 2012. He died with 53 years of sobriety and a legacy of a
huge positive influence in the lives of countless people in recovery.

If you could share this with others by posting at your meetings/Announcements I
appreciate it.

Services for Jimmy Hodges
February 18th - 3pm
AA Raynor
318 E. 71st St
Chicago


ALSO
March 10th 1-3:30pm
Jimmy Hodges Memorial
Mustard Seed
507 W. North Ave.
Chicago

Snacks will be served

**Please bring any photos of JImmy and if you care to share a story about how
Jimmy impacted your life.

0 -1 0 0
8182 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut CD's available: Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax in FtWayne CD's available: Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax in FtWayne 2/10/2012 2:41:00 PM

CD's are now available of these three talks and the follow-up discussion
afterwards.

Two disks for $10 plus $2 shipping = $12 made payable to Alcoholics Anonymous

(this will be used to help defray the cost of the conference and its luncheon,
which were free to all attendees)

Fort Wayne Central Office
2118 Inwood Drive, Suite 112
Ft. Wayne IN 46815

Central Office phone no. 260 471-6262

CONFERENCE FLYER AT:
http://hindsfoot.org/zz-ftwayne-symposium.pdf

**********************************
MESSAGE #8056
Any chance that someone could tape this and share it? I'd love to hear this, but
Ft. Wayne is a bit of a hike from Sierra Vista, Arizona. Peace and serenity,
Bryan
- - - -
MESSAGE #8077
From: "Dolores" dolli@dr-rinecker.de>
Hi, would like to join ´the tapes request as Munich,Germany is far away too.
Take care, Dolores
- - - -
From: Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net>
I would buy a recording, too. T
- - - -
From: Roy Levin royslev@yahoo.com>
Yeah, Glenn, I'd love to be there. I saw another responder ask if you're taping
it and making recordings available. I'd like to ditto that request. Regards, Roy
L.
- - - -
From: "John French" johnff@gmail.com>
Ditto on the taping -- Costa Rica is even further than Arizona from the hoosier
state! John French
**********************************

ORIGINAL MESSAGE #8063

Mel B., Glenn Chesnut, Wyatt Mullinax speaking on January 14, 2012

10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. -- Fort Wayne, Indiana

Tradition 3: The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop
drinking

============
The speakers:
MEL B. (Toledo, Ohio), co-author of Pass It On, the biography of Bill Wilson,
plus numerous other books on AA history and spirituality

GLENN CHESNUT (South Bend, Indiana), Professor Emeritus of History and Religious
Studies at Indiana University, the creator of hindsfoot.com

Dr. WYATT MULLINAX (Fort Wayne, Indiana), Commission for a Drug Free Indiana,
author of the Cognitive Skill Training program used by the Indiana Department of
Correction in its facilities, including Substance Abuse Treatment and
Pre-Release/Transition Programming
============
Questions? Need more information call:
Ray M. (260) 804-6661 or Andy D. (260) 579-0770
**********************************

0 -1 0 0
8183 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back Rockefeller Dinner -- AA later paying Rockefeller back 2/11/2012 3:27:00 AM

Another piece of the puzzle that may not fit -

Nancy O. replaced the biography she had written about Hank P. with one written
by Mike O., DeBary, FL -

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/75

This bio retells the June 1942 confrontation in Cleveland - "The committee's CPA
carefully examined the audit, read it aloud, pronounced it accurate beyond
question, and thus completely exonerated Bill." -

Nancy's bio of Hank P contained

"Hank had been in charge of Works Publishing's finances, and when called on to
make an accounting, he was unable to produce any records to indicate where the
money had gone. Apparently there was no clear line drawn between Honor Dealers,
Works Publishing, and Alcoholic Foundation expenses, or even between expenses
Hank incurred in conjunction with his Works Publishing activities and his
personal expenses.

When he was confronted with this at a stockholders' meeting, he became very
resentful and began inventing stories about his office being robbed and his
records disappearing. It was at this meeting that Dr. Silkworth saw signs of
paranoia in Hank and soon warned Bill that he might become dangerous.

Some blurring of the financial picture was inevitable when it came to Ruth Hock,
who was simultaneously working for Honor Dealers, Works Publishing, and the
Alcoholic Foundation, which were all headquartered in the same office. "

If there were no records in NY ["No clear line drawn between Honor Dealers,
Works Publishing, and Alcoholic Foundation expenses..."], then how could the
"Cleveland committee's CPA ... pronounced it accurate beyond question" -

And more to the point, finding where the money came from to repay any/all of the
loans/donations if indeed any/all of it was repaid won't be easy -

Larry
(410) 802-3099
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com

0 -1 0 0
8184 Laurence Holbrook Laurence Holbrook Re: Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery Dr. Bob prescription pad forgery 2/7/2012 6:00:00 AM

From Laurence Holbrook, Clyde G., and gadgetsdad

- - - -

From: "Laurence Holbrook" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>
(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)

I could find no reference to that expression (Trust God, clean house, help
others) in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, Pass It On, As Bill Sees It,
the Akron pamphlet nor the Grapevine Archive prior to 1970 -

Mitchell K reported in "How It Worked", The Story of Clarence H. Snyder
that, "Doc told him [Clarence Snyder] the most important things in life were
to, 'Trust God, clean house and help others.'" (pp 71) -

Also on pp 211, "Clarence summarized to the author [Mitchell K] his view of
the difference between New York and Mid-West A.A. Clarence felt that the
approach in Ohio was, "Trust God, Clean House, and Help Others." He felt
that the approach in New York was, "Don't Drink and Go To Meetings."*

Considering Clarence's allegations, it's odd that the expression is not
mentiond in Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers nor Ed Webster's "Little Red
Book" either -

The complete expression is absent from AA - Helping others is mentioned
several times with slight variations, notably on pp 97, "Helping others is
the foundation stone of your recovery." - the rest of the expression can be
found in AA on the next page (pp 98), "The only condition is that he trust
in God and clean house." -

It was passed to me from my sponsor (circa 2001) and is commonly accepted in
the Baltimore area as a summary of the program, although I don't recall the
expression ever being attributed to Dr. Bob -

*[As an aside, BryLin Psychiatric Hospital in Buffalo, New York offered an
inpatient detox/treatment program called Rush Hall (approx 1976-1988), named
for Benjamin Rush - I recall a prominently displayed banner "DDAGTM" in
1981]

Larry Holbrook
(410) 802-3099

- - - -

From: "CloydG" cloydg449@sbcglobal.net>
(cloydg449 at sbcglobal.net)

I would like to point out that they did write: "Burn the idea into the
consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only
requirement is that he trust in God and clean house." Which just happens to be
written in the Chapter, "Working with others". Who authored this would be the
question I have for the group!

In love and service, Clyde G

- - - -

From: gadgetsdad gadgetsdad@yahoo.com>
(gadgetsdad at yahoo.com)

The sad thing is that forgeries and reinactments fly through the fellowship as a
whole faster than fact.

0 -1 0 0
8185 brian koch brian koch Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/7/2012 7:06:00 AM

A well intentioned, but misinformed person posted this on Find-A-Grave as Hank
P's resting place because it made the most sense at to where he would be buried.
He is not. I contacted the church who confirmed he is not buried here. He was
cremated, so there is always the chance he is sitting on someone's mantle
somewhere or scattered over something or someplace. Still working on it as far
as Mercer count's other cemeteries. I will seek to have this Find-A-Grave
removed. Thanks for the assist tho.

Brian Koch

- - - -

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Baileygc23@aol.com discovered a claim on the Find-A-Grave
website that Hank Parkhurst's grave had now been located:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=72971769

Henry G "Hank" Parkhurst

0 -1 0 0
8186 B B Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/9/2012 7:25:00 AM

From john wikelius, Stephen Gentile, and Brian Koch

ONE REFERENCE IN THE GRAPEVINE TO "HELEN W."
AS MANAGING EDITOR

- - - -

From: john wikelius justjohn1431946@yahoo.com>
(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)

From the December 1961 Grapevine. Page 46. "We hastily add that the whole deal
was cooked up between him (story on page 3) and Managing Editor Helen W.,
because one thing we want to avoid around here is nepotism, which is defined as
"showing favoritism to relatives".

- - - -

From: Stephen Gentile sagentile@hotmail.com>
(sagentile at hotmail.com)

Hi Brian,

I did a search on the aagrapevine.org in the Digital archive area for Helen,
because Wynn wouldn't be searchable as to Anonymity in the magazine, and came up
with result number 35 as listed here:

December 1961 Grapevine article

P. S. From the Editor
We might as well tell you right off the bat that the article beginning on page 3
was written by our son. We hastily add that the whole deal was cooked up between
him and Managing Editor Helen W., because one thing we want to avoid around here
is nepotism, which is defined as "showing favoritism to relatives."

Steve G
in New Jersey

- - - -

From: "B" kochbrian@hotmail.com>
(kochbrian at hotmail.com)

I followed a snippet given to me by a friend and found reference to
Helen W as the managing editor in a December 1961 issue of the GV. As follows:

December 1961 Vol. 18 No. 7P. S. From the Editor We might as well tell you right
off the bat that the article beginning on page 3 was written by our son. We
hastily add that the whole deal was cooked up between him and Managing Editor
Helen W., because one thing we want to avoid around here is nepotism, which is
defined as "showing favoritism to relatives." It must be made clear, too, that
our son's mother--our first and only wife, a member of Al-Anon--must be given
full credit for keeping this boy (then about twelve) on an even keel when the
family ties were threatened by what she charitably called our "over-drinking."
The things active alcoholics do to their families are inhuman and cruel,
especially to frightened and bewildered youngsters. It is comforting to know
that, in this case, one boy's life was not twisted and warped; but only because
this drunk's loyal gal had love, wisdom, courage, patience, understanding and
deep faith. Like our son and our wife, we are looking forward to a seventh sober
Christmas with our family, who are no longer tense and fearful of what tomorrow
may bring. No diversion could keep us from attending that regular Monday night
open meeting (which this year will take place Christmas night) and hearing the
laughter as the group's "unlikely-looking Santa Claus" distributes from a
laundry bag the amusing junk we all contribute to the party. And a Merry
Christmas to you, too.

Helen W mentioned as Managing Editor right here in an issue of the
grapevine...hmmmmm....

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote:
>
> Friends,
>
> Having read some of the Hartigan book on Bill W for a second time, I am
searching to verify some of his information. Specifically, in the
section/chapter titled "The Other Woman" he talks about Helen Wynn. In part of
this chapter he mentions that Bill secured her a job at the AA grapevine, and
she rose to the position of Editor of AA Grapevine. I find this hard to believe
on the surface as she had no qualifications in the print media industry. He
further states that she left the grapevine in 1962. I emailed the Grapevine and
asked for a list of all editors of the magazine since its inception, and
received a list from the office manager. No Helen Wynn. However, after looking
more closely at the list, there was a time gap, the year 1961. This would
possibly coincide with Helen's being in the position, if it were true. I
re-queried, and was told that possibly the managing editor was doing the job at
the time. I re-re-queried and asked for that persons name so as to be able to
complete the timeline...The last email was "Unfortunately, I cannot find any
information on that gap...sorry." Now it seems very unusual that no information
would exist from the 60's regarding who was running our meeting in print. I
sense some attempt to erase some particularly uncomfortable, to some, piece of
our history. Am i paranoid? Certainly those of us with an interest and knowledge
of AA history know of Helen's existence and role in Bills life. Does anyone have
any grapevine editor information from this time period? Any thoughts about the
absense of information, at least according to the grapevine? Thanks all.

0 -1 0 0
8187 James Blair James Blair Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 3:00:00 PM

B wrote: "Does anyone have any Grapevine editor information from this time
period? Any thoughts about the absence of information, at least according to the
Grapevine? Thanks all."

Up until 1962 the editors of the GV were people who held another paid
position within the AA service structure thus relieving the GV of the salary
burden.

Jim

P.S. Bob P's unpublished manuscript on The History of AA devotes an entire
chapter to the Grapevine and the name of Helen Wynn does not appear in it.

0 -1 0 0
8188 ricktompkins ricktompkins RE: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 3:41:00 PM

Helen, placed in Bill's codicil Will as a beneficiary around 1962, would have
known him for more than a few years to earn that status, wouldn't you think?

She may have been a staffer only; the Gv Office keeps 4 or 5 today, and Helen
could have been a simple clerk, in its circulation department, etc. before then.

What's important to my understanding is that she was a divorced mother who lived
nearby to Bill and Lois' home, was available to him within a short distance, and
was part of the office pool in contact with Bill on a regular basis. Honestly,
either Bill or Helen waived their individual "off limits" status for a romantic
relationship.

Helen, Bill's "Other Woman," was perhaps the muse that Lois was not. It was a
long affair, and Bill and Lois eventually reconciled to
staying together.

Helen's son is attributed with providing Bill with words for
his last talk, the "thank you for your lives" quote, so the ongoing
Wilson + Wynn relationship may have continued platonically.

My two cents,

Rick, Illinois

0 -1 0 0
8189 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 11:53:00 PM

The General Service Conference Final Reports show Helen Wynn listed as a
Grapevine staff member, but never as editor. She was shown on the reports for
1957 - 1961. The 1959,1960 and 1961 reports show her on the Editorial Staff
list.

Hope this helps a little

Charles from Wisconsin

*********************************************
1955 Conference Report
A .A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS
Sidney Allen, Secretary-Treasurer
Don Goddard, Chairman-Editor
J. Seegar Heavilin
Tom 0 ' Brien, Jr .
Sigurd P . Sandmore

STAFF
Louise Shonts
Katherine Swentzel
Sarah Thompson
*********************************************
1956 Conference Report
A.A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS
Russell Clancy, Secretary-Treasurer
Don Goddard, Chairman-Editor
J. Seegar Heavilin
Tom O'Brien, Jr., Vice-Chairman
Sigurd P. Sandmore

STAFF
Louise Shonts, Ass't. to Ed.
Katherine Swentzel
Sarah Thompson
*********************************************
1957 Conference Report
A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS
Russell Clancy, Secretary-Treasurer
Don Goddard, Chairman-Editor
J. Seegar Heavilin
Tom O'Brien, Jr., Vice-Chairman
Sigurd P. Gandmore

STAFF
Louise Shonts, Ass't. to Editor
Katherine Swentzel
Sarah Thompson
Helen Wynn
*********************************************
1958 Conference Report
A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS
Russell Clancy, Via President
Joe Flynn , President-Editor
Tom O'Brien, Jr., Treasurer
Louise Shonts
Alfred Steckman
Richard A. Stevens, Chairman
Katharine Swentzel (D'ced)

STAFF
Louise Shonts
Katharine Swentzel
Sarah Thompson
Helen Wynn
Doris Holmer
*********************************************
1959 Conference Report
A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS
Joseph J. Flym, Editor
Robert MacDevitt, Treasurer
Russell Clancy, Vice-chairman
Louise S. Shonts
Alfred Steckman
Richard A. Stevens, Chairman

STAFF(Editorial)
Louise S. Shonts
Sarah Thompson
Helen Wynn

(Circulation)
Doris Holmes
*********************************************
1960 Conference Report
AA GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS
Robert MacDevitt. Treasurer
Louise Shouts
Alfred Stedrman
Richard A. Stevens, Chairman
Gurney Williams, Editor

STAFF (Editorial)
Louise Shouts
Sarah Thompson
Helen Wynn
*********************************************
1961 Conference Report
AA. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS
Robert MacDevitt. Treasurer
Helen Wynn
Alfred Stedrman
Richard A. Stevens, Chairman
Gurney Williams, Editor
Max Wylie
Mary Benuon

STAFF (Editorial)
Lee Bcckwith
Helen Wynn
*********************************************
1962 Conference Report
A. A. GRAPEVINE DIRECTORS
Jerome Ellison, Editor-Publisher
Mary Bernson
Don Goddard
Austin MacCormick
Robert MacDevitt, Treasurer
Richard A. Stevens, Chairman
Max Wylie

STAFF (Editorial)
Lee Beckwith
Paula Carpenter
*********************************************

0 -1 0 0
8190 Matt Dingle Matt Dingle Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/7/2012 4:48:00 PM

B,
Helen Wynn did run the Grapevine. I think Jerry Ellison came after her. Sometime
(probably after that) Tom White ran it. I don't have the exact dates, though.
Matt

0 -1 0 0
8191 Fritz Fritz pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for 2/8/2012 7:03:00 PM

Searching for documented proof of the company name that Robert H. Smith worked
for when he left Dartmouth. Verifiable history, not hearsay information or
opinion is required for my purpose. Please help if possible.

Grateful for this B4 me,
Fritz689

- - - -

A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: in pages 172-173 of the Big Book, Dr. Bob says

"After high school came four years in one of the best colleges in the country
[Dartmouth] where drinking seemed to be a major extra-curricular activity .... I
was graduated "summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity, but not
in the eyes of the Dean [in 1902]. The next three years I spent in Boston,
Chicago, and Montreal in the employ of a large manufacturing concern, selling
railway supplies, gas engines of all sorts, and many other items of heavy
hardware. During these years, I drank as much as my purse permitted, still
without paying too great a penalty .... My next move was to take up the study of
medicine, entering one of the largest universities in the country [the
University of Michigan in Fall 1905]."

TO CONTINUE THE STORY:
(taking the dates and details here from Arthur S's Narrative Timeline of AA
History at
http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/1881_1904.html )

In Fall 1907, Dr Bob was forced to leave the University of Michigan due to his
drinking. He transferred as a junior to Rush Medical College near Chicago. In
1910 Dr Bob received his medical degree from Rush and then obtained a 2-year
internship at City Hospital in Akron, Ohio.

0 -1 0 0
8192 Frank in LA Frank in LA Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor 2/7/2012 4:01:00 PM

Bill Wilson tells a story somewhere about having dinner with a doctor whose
views could be described as basically atheistic. Bill related to the dinner
party the story of his spectacular spiritual experience, and the doctor offered
an alternate explanation.

Bill got quite heated up and lectured the good doctor for a fair part of the
evening.

Years later, Bill spoke to the doctor's wife. Her husband had just died, after a
protracted and painful illness which he had kept mainly to himself, not wanting
to burden those around him.

He was a man of great service, and kindness, this atheist doctor. And
forbearance it would seem -- as he patiently let Bill hold forth that night
without any counterargument.

Bill ended this story by recognizing that the doctor was "a man of great
spiritual worth." And Bill said that he had to admit that "my own spiritual
awakening had given me a built-in faith in God .... but I had been neither
humble nor wise. Boasting of my faith, I had forgotten my ideals. Pride and
irresponsibility had taken their place."

Can someone please point me to the source of this piece? It's been years since I
read it, and I can't seem to find it again. Thank you.

_________________________________________

FROM THE MODERATOR: HERE IS THE FULL ORIGINAL ARTICLE

The Dilemma of No Faith
by Bill Wilson, AA Grapevine, April 1961

The phrase "God As We Understand Him" is perhaps the most important expression
to be found in our whole AA vocabulary. Within the compass of these five
significant words there can be included every kind and degree of faith, together
with the positive assurance that each of us may choose his own. Scarcely less
valuable to us are those supplemental expressions - "A Higher Power" and "A
Power Greater Than Ourselves." For all who deny, or seriously doubt a deity,
these frame an open door over whose threshold the unbeliever can take his first
easy step into a reality hitherto unknown to him - the realm of faith.

In AA such breakthroughs are everyday events. They are all the more remarkable
when we reflect that a working faith had once seemed an impossibility of the
first magnitude to perhaps half of our present membership of three hundred
thousand. To all these doubters has come the great discovery that as soon as
they could cast their main dependence upon a "higher power" - even upon their
own AA groups - they had turned that blind corner which had always kept the open
highway from their view. From this time on - assuming they tried hard to
practice the rest of the AA program with a relaxed and open mind - an ever
deepening and broadening faith, a veritable gift, had invariably put in its
sometimes unexpected and often mysterious appearance.

We much regret that these facts of AA life are not understood by the legion of
alcoholics in the world around us. Any number of them are bedeviled by the dire
conviction that if ever they go near AA they will be pressured to conform to
some particular brand of faith or theology. They just don't realize that faith
is never a necessity for AA membership; that sobriety can be achieved with an
easily acceptable minimum of it; and that our concepts of a higher power and God
as we understand Him afford everyone a nearly unlimited choice of spiritual
belief and action.

How to transmit this good news is one of our most challenging problems in
communication, for which there may be no fast or sweeping answer. Perhaps our
public information services could begin to emphasize this all-important aspect
of AA more heavily. And within our own ranks we might well develop a more
sympathetic awareness of the acute plight of these really isolated and desperate
sufferers. In their aid we can settle for no less than the best possible
attitude and the most ingenious action that we can muster.

We can also take a fresh look at the problem of "no faith" as it exists right on
our own doorstep. Though three hundred thousand did recover in the last
twenty-five years, maybe half a million more have walked into our midst, and
then out again. No doubt some were too sick to make even a start. Others
couldn't or wouldn't admit their alcoholism. Still others couldn't face up to
their underlying personality defects. Numbers departed for still other reasons.

Yet we can't well content ourselves with the view that all these recovery
failures were entirely the fault of the newcomers themselves. Perhaps a great
many didn't receive the kind and amount of sponsorship they so sorely needed. We
didn't communicate when we might have done so. So we AA's failed them. Perhaps
more often than we think, we still make no contact at depth with those suffering
the dilemma of no faith.

Certainly none are more sensitive to spiritual cocksureness, pride and
aggression than they are. I'm sure this is something we too often forget. In
AA's first years I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of
unconscious arrogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody.
Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it
was damaging - perhaps fatally so - to numbers of non-believers. Of course this
sort of thing isn't confined to Twelfth Step work. It is very apt to leak out
into our relationships with everybody. Even now, I catch myself chanting that
same old barrier-building refrain, "Do as I do, believe as I do - or else!"

Here's a recent example of the high cost of spiritual pride. A very tough-minded
prospect was taken to his first AA meeting. The first speaker majored on his own
drinking pattern. The prospect seemed impressed. The next two speakers (or maybe
lecturers) each themed their talks on "God as I understand Him." This could have
been good, too, but it certainly wasn't. The trouble was their attitude, the way
they presented their experience. They did ooze arrogance. In fact, the final
speaker got far overboard on some of his personal theological convictions. With
perfect fidelity, both were repeating my performance of years before. Quite
unspoken, yet implicit in everything they said, was the same idea - "Folks,
listen to us. We have the only true brand of AA - and you'd better get it!"

The new prospect said he'd had it - and he had. His sponsor protested that this
wasn't real AA. But it was too late; nobody could touch him after that. He also
had a first class alibi for yet another bender. When last heard from, an early
appointment with the undertaker seemed probable.

Fortunately, such rank aggression in the name of spirituality isn't often seen
nowadays. Yet this sorry and unusual episode can be turned to good account. We
can ask ourselves whether, in less obvious but nevertheless destructive forms,
we are not more subject to fits of spiritual pride than we had supposed. If
constantly worked at, I'm sure that no kind of self-survey could be more
beneficial. Nothing could more surely increase our communication with each other
and with God.

Many years ago a so-called "unbeliever" brought me to see this very clearly. He
was an M.D. and a fine one. I met him and his wife Mary at the home of a friend
in a midwestern city. It was purely a social evening. Our fellowship of
alcoholics was my sole topic and I pretty much monopolized the conversation.
Nevertheless, the doctor and his lady seemed truly interested and he asked many
questions. But one of them made me suspect that he was an agnostic, or maybe an
atheist.

This promptly triggered me, and I set out to convert him, then and there. Deadly
serious, I actually bragged about my spectacular spiritual experience of the
year before. The doctor mildly wondered if that experience might not be
something other than I thought it was. This hit me hard, and I was downright
rude. There had been no real provocation; the doctor was uniformly courteous,
good humored and even respectful. Not a little wistfully, he said he often
wished he had a firm faith, too. But plainly enough, I had convinced him of
nothing.

Three years later I revisited my midwestern friend. Mary, the doctor's wife,
came by for a call and I learned that he had died the week before. Much
affected, she began to speak of him.

His was a noted Boston family, and he'd been Harvard educated. A brilliant
student, he might have gone on to fame in his profession. He could have enjoyed
a wealthy practice and a social life among old friends. Instead, he had insisted
on being a company doctor in what was a strife-torn industrial town. When Mary
had sometimes asked why they didn't go back to Boston, he would take her hand
and say, "Maybe you are right, but I can't bring myself to leave. I think the
people at the company really need me."

Mary then recalled that she had never known her husband to complain seriously
about anything, or to criticize anyone bitterly. Though he appeared to be
perfectly well, the doctor had slowed down in his last five years. When Mary
prodded him to go out evenings, or tried to get him to the office on time, he
always came up with a plausible and good-natured excuse. Not until his sudden
last illness did she know what all this while he had carried about a heart
condition that could have done him in at any moment. Except for a single doctor
on his own staff, no one had an inkling. When she reproached him about this, he
simply said, "Well, I could see no good in causing people to worry about me -
especially you, my dear."

This was the story of a man of great spiritual worth. The hallmarks were plain
to be seen: humor and patience, gentleness and courage, humility and dedication,
unselfishness and love - a demonstration I might never come near to making
myself. This was the man I had chided and patronized. This was the "unbeliever"
I had presumed to instruct!

Mary told us this story more than twenty years ago. Then, for the first time, it
burst in upon me how very dead faith can be - when minus responsibility. The
doctor had an unwavering belief in his ideals. But he also practiced humility,
wisdom and responsibility. Hence his superb demonstration.

My own spiritual awakening had given me a built-in faith in God - a gift indeed.
But I had been neither humble nor wise. Boasting of my faith, I had forgotten my
ideals. Pride and irresponsibility had taken their place. By so cutting off my
own light, I had little to offer my fellow alcoholics. At last I saw why many
had gone away - some of them forever.

Therefore, faith is more than our greatest gift; its sharing with others is our
greatest responsibility. So may we of AA continually seek the wisdom and the
willingness by which we may well fulfill that immense trust which the Giver of
all perfect gifts has placed in our hands.

0 -1 0 0
8193 tablemate1987 tablemate1987 Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps 2/11/2012 6:52:00 PM

The set of early AA beginners lessons entitled
"Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps"

We know it has been called the "Detroit pamphlet", the "Washington DC pamphlet,"
and also "The Table Leaders Guide."

Our Washington State history book -- "Our Stories Disclose" -- says that it
arrived here in Seattle in July of 1944 and that Big Pete P. talked the visitor
from back east out of his copy of the "Table Mate" published by the "Paragon
Press of Washington D.C."

We would like to know who changed the name to the "Table Mate"?

If anyone has any info on this or Paragon press? It would be much appreciated.

yis
Michael G.

_______________________________________

THE PAMPHLET DIVIDES THE DISCUSSION OF THE TWELVE STEPS INTO FOUR LESSONS:
1. The Admission http://hindsfoot.org/Detr1.html
2. The Spiritual Phase http://hindsfoot.org/Detr2.html
3. Inventory and Restitution http://hindsfoot.org/Detr3.html
4. Active Work http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html

http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html

0 -1 0 0
8194 B B Re: No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine No record of Helen Wynn as editor at the AA Grapevine 2/13/2012 7:19:00 AM

This is a list provided by the Grapevine. At first glance, no Helen Wynn. At
subsequent closer glance, no 1961. As i mentioned before the grapevine office
claims no information for this missing year.

Grapevine Editors

Volunteer
Tom Yutzy 1944-1946
Al Steckman 1946-1948
Sig Heavilin April 1952-Jan 1954
Sig Sandmore 1954-1955
Don Goddard 1955-1958 (Chairman and Editor)
Joseph Flynn 1958-1960 (President and Editor)
Gurney Williams April 1963-May 1964 (Editor and Publisher)

Paid
Jerry Ellison Jan 1962-Apr 1963 (Editor and Publisher)
Tom White May 1964-Jul 1967 (part-time)
Jack Morley 1969-May 1978 (Editor)
Paula Carpenter 1968-1976 (Managing Editor)
Retha Gresham May 1978-Oct 1987 (Managing Editor)
Ann Warner 1982-1987 (Editor)
1988-1996 (Executive Editor)
Ames Sweet 1987-1996 (Managing Editor)
1996-2000 (Executive Editor)
Cynthia Keyworth Jan 2001-Dec 2001 (Interim Managing Editor)
Desmond Towey Sep 2001-Jan2004 (Executive Editor)
Charles McGovern Jan 2002-Aug 2004 (Managing Editor)
Robin Bromley Apr 2004-May 2010 (Executive Editor)
Amber Eden Jul 2008-Present (Managing Editor)
Ami Brophy Nov 2010-Present (Executive Editor/Publisher)


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Matt Dingle wrote:
>
> B,
> Helen Wynn did run the Grapevine. I think Jerry Ellison came after her.
Sometime (probably after that) Tom White ran it. I don't have the exact dates,
though.
> Matt
>

0 -1 0 0
8195 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/12/2012 10:08:00 PM

Hank is also noted on Find-A-Grave as AA # 3 which is also obviously not true.
How did the church confirm Hank is NOT buried there (records check or physical
knowledge) and how was it confirmed he was cremated. Any additional information
from anyone about Hank's remains would be appreciated. I do like the thought of
his "sitting on a mantle" somewhere ...... Stepping Stones, perhaps J

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst


-----Original Message-----
From: brian koch
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012
Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave

A well intentioned, but misinformed person posted this on Find-A-Grave as Hank
P's resting place because it made the most sense at to where he would be buried.
He is not. I contacted the church who confirmed he is not buried here. He was
cremated, so there is always the chance he is sitting on someone's mantle
somewhere or scattered over something or someplace. Still working on it as far
as Mercer count's other cemeteries. I will seek to have this Find-A-Grave
removed. Thanks for the assist tho.

Brian Koch

- - - -

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Baileygc23@aol.com discovered a claim on the
Find-A-Grave website that Hank Parkhurst's grave had now been located:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=72971769

Henry G "Hank" Parkhurst

0 -1 0 0
8196 joe joe When did the INFORMED group concience phrase appear? When did the INFORMED group concience phrase appear? 2/12/2012 8:16:00 PM

When and where did the term "informed group conscience" first begin to appear in
AA language?

During a Traditions Study it was noted that the long and short form of Tradition
2 reads in part "... a loving God as He may express Himself in our group
conscience".

Sometime in our history, the phrase "INFORMED group conscience" became common in
general service and some group business meetings. I began a search and found the
current pamphlet "The AA Group" on page 28 answers the question, "What is an
Informed Group Conscience?"

I found an article from Box 459 Feb/March 1989 titled, "In A.A.'s Benign
Anarchy" Informed Group Conscience Is Our Ultimate Authority."

The Twelve and Twelve does not used "informed". Once in the context of speaking
about the experience which elder statesmen provide to a group, it says, "This is
the experience which has led us to the conclusion that our group conscience,
well-advised by its elders, will be in the long run wiser than any single
leader." This may have some connection, but a stretch at this point.

I would like to know from those who may have earlier versions of the AA Group
pamphlet, which I believe evolved from a pamphlet of a different title, could
help us learn when and where the term "informed group conscience" first began to
appear in AA language.

0 -1 0 0
8197 sabourin1987 sabourin1987 Re: Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor Bill W's conversation with the atheistic doctor 2/12/2012 8:08:00 PM

From sabourin1987 and Frank in LA

- - - -

From: "sabourin1987" km2blv@gmail.com>
(km2blv at gmail.com)

I have a small booklet, maybe 3x5 inches, entitled "The Best of Bill from the
Grapevine: Faith, Fear, Honesty, Humility, Love" containing five articles on
these subjects, reprinted from the Grapevine. Copyrights dated 1958, 1961, 1962.
The first article in the booklet, entitled "God as We Understand Him" is the
same as the story that the moderator attributes to the April, 1961 Grapevine.

- - - -

From: "Frank in LA" rul6t2@yahoo.com>
(rul6t2 at yahoo.com)

Thanks much. Nice to have the whole article again. And wonderful to see that
whatever his faults, Bill also practiced a brand of humility that's really
inspiring. No doubt he had his lapses there too, but he tried, and that means a
lot to me.

Best regards,
Frank

0 -1 0 0
8198 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve S... Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve S... 2/12/2012 2:50:00 PM

Another reference to the Seattle story:

http://www.eskimo.com/~burked/history/tablemat.html

Please note where it says here that the booklet called "The Table Mate" as
currently available in the Seattle area has been considerably expanded, and
contains additional material which was not present in the original Washington
D.C./Detroit pamphlet of the 1940's.

0 -1 0 0
8199 John John Re: pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for pp.172-173 Dr. Bob's Nightmare: the company he worked for 2/12/2012 2:36:00 PM

According to this article about Dr. Bob's father (Walter Perrin Smith), it was
the Fairbanks, Morse Company, Chicago where the young Dr. Bob was working in
1904.

John

==============================
WALTER P. SMITH

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vermont/71SuccessfulVermontersWalterPSmith.htm\
l


SMITH, WALTER PERRIN, son of John S. and Sophronia M. (Perrin) Smith, was born
in Hardwick, Vermont, November 4, 1841. Mr. Smith fitted for college at Hardwick
academy, and the People's academy at Morrisville, Vermont, and graduated from
the University of Vermont in 1867. He pursued the course at the Law department
of Michigan university and subsequently completed his legal studies with Powers
& Gleed at Morrisville, and was admitted to the bar of Lamoille county in May,
1869. He soon after came to St. Johnsbury and formed a partnership in law with
Hon. Jonathan Ross, which continued until the latter was elected to the bench.
Mr. Smith was state attorney of Caledonia county from 1874 to '76. He has served
as superintendent of schools.

He was elected to the legislature from St. Johnsbury in 1880, and served on the
judiciary and other important committees. In 1882 he was elected judge of
probate of Caledonia county, a position in which he has shown such eminent
fitness that he has continued to receive the unanimous renominations of the
Republican party and successive reelections by the people until the present
time.

Judge Smith has ever been influential in the political and religious life of St.
Johnsbury. He was for several years a director of the Merchants National bank,
is a director of the First National bank, and a trustee and vice-president of
the Passumpsic Savings bank. An able and effective debater, he has frequently
taken the stump during national elections, and delivered addresses on memorial
and other public occasions. He is a member of the North Congregational church.

He married, in 1876, Susan A., daughter of Dr. Perley R. and Louise M.
(Lawrence) Holbrook. They have one son, Robert H. Smith, a graduate of Dartmouth
in the class of 1902, and is now in the employ of the Fairbanks, Morse Company,
Chicago. Mrs. Smith is an active worker in the beneficent and educational
activities of the times, and a member of the state library commission.

Source: Successful Vermonters, William H. Jeffrey, E. Burke, Vermont, The
Historical Publishing Company, 1904, page 98.

Prepared by Tom Dunn August 2005
==============================


A NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: in pages 172-173 of the Big Book, Dr. Bob says

"After high school came four years in one of the best colleges in the country
[Dartmouth] where drinking seemed to be a major extra-curricular activity .... I
was graduated "summa cum laude" in the eyes of the drinking fraternity, but not
in the eyes of the Dean [in 1902]. The next three years I spent in Boston,
Chicago, and Montreal in the employ of a large manufacturing concern, selling
railway supplies, gas engines of all sorts, and many other items of heavy
hardware. During these years, I drank as much as my purse permitted, still
without paying too great a penalty .... My next move was to take up the study of
medicine, entering one of the largest universities in the country [the
University of Michigan in Fall 1905]."

TO CONTINUE THE STORY:
(taking the dates and details here from Arthur S's Narrative Timeline
of AA History at
http://silkworth.net/timelines/timelines_public/1881_1904.html )

In Fall 1907, Dr Bob was forced to leave the University of Michigan due to his
drinking. He transferred as a junior to Rush Medical College near Chicago. In
1910 Dr Bob received his medical degree from Rush and then obtained a 2-year
internship at City Hospital in Akron, Ohio.

0 -1 0 0
8200 brian koch brian koch Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/13/2012 2:54:00 PM

His obit led to Blackwell Memorial Home, which when contacted, confirmed body
had been sent to Pennington Crematorium. From there the trail dies. I contacted
the church, based on records, which appear to be complete.

Brian

_________________________________________

From: ineedpage63@cox.net
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012
Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave

Hank is also noted on Find-A-Grave as AA # 3 which is also obviously not true.
How did the church confirm Hank is NOT buried there (records check or physical
knowledge) and how was it confirmed he was cremated. Any additional information
from anyone about Hank's remains would be appreciated. I do like the thought of
his "sitting on a mantle" somewhere ...... Stepping Stones, perhaps

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

_________________________________________

From: brian koch
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012
Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave

A well intentioned, but misinformed person posted this on Find-A-Grave as Hank
P's resting place because it made the most sense at to where he would be buried.
He is not. I contacted the church who confirmed he is not buried here. He was
cremated, so there is always the chance he is sitting on someone's mantle
somewhere or scattered over something or someplace. Still working on it as far
as Mercer count's other cemeteries. I will seek to have this Find-A-Grave
removed. Thanks for the assist tho.

Brian Koch

0 -1 0 0
8201 trysh travis trysh travis Re: seeking Jimmy who posted on Hugh Selby seeking Jimmy who posted on Hugh Selby 2/13/2012 2:07:00 PM

On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 9:00 PM, trysh travis trysh.travis@gmail.com>wrote:

> I recently came across this posting from several years back, which noted
> then-recent obituaries for the author Hugh Selby, Jr.:
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1780.
>
> It was posted by "jimmy" dijmo@yahoo.com> (dijmo at yahoo.com)
>
> I wonder if "Jimmy" still participates in this list and, if so, if he'd be
> willing to contact me? I'd also be interested in anyone else from the LA
> area who knew Selby. The standard academic literature on his career
> completely erases his connection to the program, which helps to explain a
> lot of the nuances in his later writings.
>
> Please contact me off list if you have information on this topic.
>
> Thanks,
> Trysh Travis
> trysh.travis@gmail.com (trysh.travis at gmail.com)

0 -1 0 0
8202 Mary Bray Mary Bray Mugs from Henry Parkhurst's porcelain company Mugs from Henry Parkhurst's porcelain company 2/13/2012 1:43:00 PM

I have some mugs that I believe came from Henry Parkhurst's porcelain company
... Does anyone know anything about it? Can't find any info .... Thank you in
advance ...

0 -1 0 0
8203 shakey shakey 1st men's group 1st men's group 2/15/2012 11:25:00 AM

I have a photo of Earl Applease which mentions him as being secretary of the
first men's group. It is in the cd's of my late sponsor Harry the Wino V. who
got sober in Los Angeles Ca. Would any AAHL member know this man and what group
he was secretary? Where was the first official men's group? I imagine that due
to the growth of AA in Cleveland,in the fellowships early years 1940 to 1950,
that is may be there or possibly in LA.I checked the AAHL search engine and
found nothing on Earl or as men's group.

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz
Going to NAW 1012 Oct 4-7 in Cocoa Beach Fl.
www.aanationalarchivesworkshop.com

0 -1 0 0
8204 B B Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 2/15/2012 7:27:00 AM

I have seen some obits for bill and they mention a Miami Florida Hospital. Does
anyone know which hospital it was? Thanks to all my fellow history buffs.

0 -1 0 0
8205 kate.frisby kate.frisby Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's 2/14/2012 3:07:00 AM

Does anyone have a photo of Charlie from the Big Book Study that they could send
to me?

Thanks
Kate

kate.frisby@yahoo.com>
(kate.frisby at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
8206 Charles Knapp Charles Knapp Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/13/2012 10:59:00 PM

His obit states "Interment was at the convenience of the family." (See message
#7560 for transcript.) Generally this indicates a cremation.

Charles from Wisconsin

0 -1 0 0
8207 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 2/15/2012 1:53:00 PM

This is from Stepping Stones.

SAYING FAREWELL

In January 1971, Bill was flown in a private jet to the Miami Heart
Institute in hopes of finding treatment for his severe emphysema. He is said to
have been in good spirits during the flight but much weakened. Bill never
received treatment; he died the day he arrived -- January 24, his and Lois'
wedding anniversary. They had been married 53 years.

0 -1 0 0
8208 Cindy Miller Cindy Miller Re: Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's 2/15/2012 5:12:00 PM

There are about 5 or 6 on Google.

- - - -

On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:07 AM, kate.frisby wrote:

> Does anyone have a photo of Charlie from the Big Book Study that
> they could send to me?
>
> Thanks
> Kate
>
> kate.frisby@yahoo.com>
> (kate.frisby at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
8209 brian koch brian koch Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave location of Henry Parkhurst's grave 2/15/2012 1:24:00 PM

Cremation has been verified. However, sometimes ashes are buried or a memorial
stone is placed somewhere for family and friends to pay respects. Thanks for the
info.

Brian from Pennsylvania

- - - -

From: cpknapp@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012
Subject: Re: location of Henry Parkhurst's grave

His obit states "Interment was at the convenience of the family." (See message
#7560 for transcript.) Generally this indicates a cremation.

Charles from Wisconsin

0 -1 0 0
8210 brian koch brian koch Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 2/16/2012 6:49:00 AM

I have contacted the Miami Heart Institute/Mount Sinai Hospital in Miami. They
could not, for confidentiality reasons, reveal if Bill had been a patient there.
I respect that, i guess .... haha.


- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 13:53:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed?

This is from Stepping Stones.

SAYING FAREWELL

In January 1971, Bill was flown in a private jet to the Miami Heart
Institute in hopes of finding treatment for his severe emphysema. He is said to
have been in good spirits during the flight but much weakened. Bill never
received treatment; he died the day he arrived -- January 24, his and Lois'
wedding anniversary. They had been married 53 years.

0 -1 0 0
8211 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Sister Ignatia's program at St. Thomas hospital in 1951 Sister Ignatia's program at St. Thomas hospital in 1951 2/16/2012 2:34:00 PM

AA oldtimer William E. Swegan's article on "Kent State University and Sister
Ignatia" gives a detailed description of Sister Ignatia's alcoholic ward at St.
Thomas Hospital in Akron, as he observed it in 1951:

http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc16.pdf

This is important for AA historians to read, because already by this early
period there were resident psychiatrists at the St. Thomas Hospital to treat any
major psychiatric problems, and they were well beyond the primitive karo syrup
and sauerkraut detoxing methods.

This article is Chapter 16 in Swegan's book The Psychology of Alcoholism, see:
http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kbs2.html
http://hindsfoot.org/kbs3.html

The three most famous types of AA-related early alcoholism treatment programs
were:

1. Sister Ignatia's program, which was strongly spiritually oriented. Although
she attempted to keep the spirituality fairly nonsectarian, there was certainly
an unmistakably Christian flavor to it, and people were encouraged to go pray in
the Catholic chapel across the hall.

2. Swegan's Lackland-Long Beach Model, which he began developing in 1953 in San
Antonio, Texas (after studying with Searcy Whalen and E. M. Jellinek at the Yale
School of Alcohol Studies and spending a year observing Sister Ignatia's program
in Akron). Swegan's treatment philosophy was more in tune with the atheistic
and agnostic wing of AA.

Bill Swegan himself was not a believer in God in any traditional sense, but
worked a program based on the spirituality of devoted love and service to our
fellow human beings. Nevertheless, he also achieved a thoroughly documented
fifty percent success rate, where fifty percent of the military personnel
accepted into his program got sober and stayed sober the first time, with no
relapses.

3. The Minnesota Model, which put the alcoholics in a facility where they were
almost completely isolated from the outside world. It was totally unlike Sister
Ignatia's program (where large numbers of local Akron AA people came to visit
the patients regularly) or Swegan's Lackland program (where he drove his
patients to attend a number of AA meetings every week in the surrounding
civilian community).

Hazelden started out in 1949 as simply a big farmhouse and is still to this day
located on 500 acres of rural midwestern prairie and woods outside Center City,
Minnesota, which itself has a population of only 628. Fiona Dodd remembers how
we could still see wild deer roaming the surrounding land, which was originally
settled by Swedish farmers. (For a photo of the farmhouse, see around the middle
of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/rwcvphot.html )

Over the years, Hazelden came to be guided to greater and greater degree by
psychiatrists, psychologists, psychotherapists, and alcoholism counselors, who
spoke of chemical dependency and moved the program further and further away from
early AA principles. They won control of Hazelden's administration in 1966, and
it became a very different place from the one which was originally started by a
small group of dedicated AA people in 1949 in the big wooden farmhouse on the
prairie.

0 -1 0 0
8212 Laurence Holbrook Laurence Holbrook RE: Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's Charlie from the Big Book Study CD's 2/18/2012 5:24:00 AM

The funeral home has over a dozen photes posted in Charlie's Book of
Memories and they are above 'net average in resolution.

Charles A. Parmley 1929-2011 at the website for the Luginbuel Funeral Homes:
http://www.luginbuel.com/

The URL for Charlie's Memorial Photos is so long, that it may not work if you
just click on it. You may need to copy this out and paste it in your browser:
______________________________________________

http://luginbuelfuneralhome.frontrunnerpro.com/runtime/3060/runtime.php?SiteId=3\
060&NavigatorId=54126&op=tributeFamilyPhotos&viewOpt=dpaneOnly&ItemId=723627&Lin\
kId=282

______________________________________________

0 -1 0 0
8213 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Sgt. Bill Swegan and Jolly West: Lackland-Long Beach Model Sgt. Bill Swegan and Jolly West: Lackland-Long Beach Model 2/18/2012 2:35:00 PM

William E. Swegan and Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West created the earliest version
of the Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment at Lackland Air Force
Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953.

Five years earlier, in 1948, William E. Swegan had started the first officially
sanctioned alcoholism treatment program in the U.S. military, at Mitchel Air
Force Base on Long Island (just outside New York City), with himself as the only
full-time appointed staff member.

http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc01.pdf

Then in 1953, he and famous psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West teamed up
to form an expanded program at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas.
See Swegan's description of their methods at:

"Lackland: the Fully Developed Treatment Program"
http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc17.pdf

(This is Chapter 17 of Swegan's book The Psychology of Alcoholism -- see
http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html -- this book was originally published in 2003 as
"On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program," by Sgt. Bill
S. with Glenn F. Chesnut, Ph.D.)

50% of the military personnel admitted to their treatment program got sober and
stayed sober the first time through. Others eventually saw the light and got
sober afterwards.

This is important because Swegan represented the atheistic and agnostic wing of
early AA, which practiced a spirituality based on TRULY DEVOTED love and service
to other human beings, but with little or no reference to an external personal
God figure.

This was certainly not an "easier, softer way" -- for most of sixty years, Bill
Swegan devoted most of every waking hour to helping other people in one way or
another. All who have met Bill Swegan know that he was aglow within with a
gentle and all-compassionate love. Think of a Buddhist master who does not
believe in a personal God but does practice a life of total humility and absence
of personal ambition or pridefulness, combined with compassion towards all. I
saw Bill sitting down in the hospitality rooms at AA conventions, and total
strangers repeatedly coming up and suddenly talking with him about their deepest
torments and fears, and then being calmed and reassured, not so much by the
words that he said, as by the love and compassion they could feel shining in
him.

WARNING:
Dr. West's daughter Mary advised me that one should be careful about trusting
everything said about her father which appears on the internet. The wikipedia
article on him gives the same warning, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Jolyon_West

This wikipedia article notes that the attacks on Dr. West began "after he
published a textbook in 1980, in which he called Scientology a cult." The
wikipedia article relates how, on one American Psychiatric Association panel on
cults, where every speaker had received a long letter threatening a lawsuit if
Scientology were mentioned, no one mentioned Scientology except West, who was
the last speaker: "I read parts of the letter to the 1,000-plus psychiatrists
and then told any Scientologists in the crowd to pay attention. I said I would
like to advise my colleagues that I consider Scientology a cult and L. Ron
Hubbard a quack and a fake. I wasn't about to let them intimidate me."
(Psychiatric Times, 1991)

Dr. West was in fact the top expert of his era on brain-washing (he was the one
who discovered the vital role which sleep deprivation played in genuine
brain-washing techniques), and one of the most prominent anti-cult campaigners
of that time. This is especially important to note, because West insisted that
Alcoholics Anonymous was absolutely NOT a cult or a brain-washing scheme, and if
anyone was ever qualified to make that judgment, it was him.

==========================================
See West's obituary at
http://www.csj.org/announce/annoucement_archives/2000/westdeath.htm

LOUIS WEST HAS DIED -- A CULT EXPERT AND MEMBER OF AAA's CULTIC STUDIES JOURNAL
EDITORIAL ADVISORY

Los Angeles, Jan 7 (Reuters)

Psychiatrist Louis Jolyon West, an expert on cults, torture and brainwashing who
examined Jack Ruby and Patricia Hearst during their trials, has died at age 74,
associates said on Thursday.

A spokesman for the University of California at Los Angeles, where West was in
charge of the Neuropsychiatric Institute for 20 years before his retirement in
1989, said he died on Saturday of cancer at his home in Los Angeles.

West frequently worked as a court-appointed psychiatrist. After examining Ruby,
the killer of President John F. Kennedy's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, West
concluded Ruby was suffering from ``major mental illness precipitated by the
stress of (his) trial.''

The psychiatrist was also one of four experts who examined newspaper heiress
Patty Hearst, who was kidnapped by the so-called Symbionese Liberation Army and
who later joined its ranks as a bank robber.

The panel found her sane and fit to stand trial, but West wrote that she was
"psychologically damaged as a result of torture by the SLA."

The experts also urged that Hearst receive treatment for her mental illness
before her 1976 trial, but the court ignored the recommendation. "The government
finished the destruction of her life started by an anti-government group," West
said after Hearst was convicted. Her prison sentence was commuted by President
Jimmy Carter in 1979.

A civil rights activist, West was the first white psychiatrist to go to South
Africa to testify on behalf of black prisoners during the apartheid era.

During the Korean War he studied brainwashing and torture. He said at the time
that American prisoners of war had falsely confessed to engaging in germ warfare
because their captors had instilled a sense of guilt in them through solitary
confinement, prolonged sleeplessness and physical abuse, which he called the
classic tools of brainwashing.

In an interview with the Los Angeles Times, West said the behaviour of cult
members and kidnapping victims was driven by the "three 'Ds' - debility, dread
and dependence."

"A prisoner is debilitated by inactivity, by sleep loss, or worse, by physical
harm. He is filled with dread by constant threats of pain or death or harm to
his family. He is rendered completely dependent upon his captors for
information, food, shelter, life," West said.

West, who was born the son of poor Russian Jewish immigrants in Madison,
Wisconsin, is survived by his wife Kathryn, son John and daughters Anne and
Mary.
==========================================


Bill Swegan eventually married Dr. West's daughter Mary Swegan, a marvelously
warm and loving person. There is a photo of Bill at the top of this web page:

http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aapix02.html

And then the second photo down shows both Bill and Mary, standing second and
third from the left.


******************************************
For more background, see Message #8211
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8211

THE THREE MOST FAMOUS TYPES OF AA-RELATED ALCOHOLISM TREATMENT PROGRAMS WERE:

1. Sister Ignatia's program, which was strongly spiritually oriented. Although
she attempted to keep the spirituality fairly nonsectarian, there was certainly
an unmistakably Christian flavor to it, and people were encouraged to go pray in
the Catholic chapel across the hall.

2. Swegan's Lackland-Long Beach Model, which he began developing in 1953 in San
Antonio, Texas (after studying with Searcy Whalen and E. M. Jellinek at the Yale
School of Alcohol Studies and spending a year observing Sister Ignatia's program
in Akron). Swegan's treatment philosophy was more in tune with the atheistic and
agnostic wing of AA.

Bill Swegan himself was not a believer in God in any traditional sense, but
worked a program based on the spirituality of devoted love and service to our
fellow human beings. Nevertheless, he also achieved a thoroughly documented
fifty percent success rate, where fifty percent of the military personnel
accepted into his program got sober and stayed sober the first time, with no
relapses.

3. The Minnesota Model, which put the alcoholics in a facility where they were
almost completely isolated from the outside world. It was totally unlike Sister
Ignatia's program (where large numbers of local Akron AA people came to visit
the patients regularly) or Swegan's Lackland program (where he drove his
patients to attend a number of AA meetings every week in the surrounding
civilian community).

Hazelden started out in 1949 as simply a big farmhouse and is still to this day
located on 500 acres of rural Midwestern prairie and woods outside Center City,
Minnesota, which itself has a population of only 628. Fiona Dodd remembers how
we could still see wild deer roaming the surrounding land, which was originally
settled by Swedish farmers. (For a photo of the farmhouse, see around the middle
of the page at http://hindsfoot.org/rwcvphot.html )

But over the years, Hazelden grew bigger and bigger, and came to be guided to
greater and greater degree by psychiatrists, psychologists, psychotherapists,
and alcoholism counselors, who spoke of chemical dependency and moved the
program further and further away from early AA principles. They won control of
Hazelden's administration in 1966, and it became a very different place from the
one which was originally started by a small group of dedicated AA people in 1949
in the big wooden farmhouse on the prairie.
******************************************

0 -1 0 0
8214 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model 2/18/2012 2:56:00 PM

Chapter 16. Twelfth Stepping the Military
http://hindsfoot.org/help16.pdf

Chapter 17. Alcoholics with Gold Braid
http://hindsfoot.org/help17.pdf

(Taken from Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of
Alcoholism (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html )

The Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment was first developed at
Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953-1961 by William E. Swegan
and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon ("Jolly") West.

In Chapter 16, Nancy Olson describes the further development of this type of
AA-related alcoholism treatment program by psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Zuska and
Navy Commander Dick Jewell at the Long Beach Naval Station in California in the
years 1965 and following. (Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link
between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program.)

Dr. Zuska, although not an alcoholic himself, was beloved at a deep personal
level by several generations of AA people in that part of California because of
all he had done to help alcoholics -- hundreds and hundreds of them owed their
lives to him, and they knew it.

Betty Ford, wife of U.S. President Ford, was sent to the Long Beach treatment
program to get sober, and U.S. President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was
also sent there because of its outstanding record in getting alcoholics sober.

Then Nancy goes on in Chapter 17 to describe the hearings before the U.S. Senate
subcommittee on alcoholism and drug abuse in the U.S. military in 1970. Also
more on Joe Zuska and the Navy alcoholism treatment program which he developed
at Long Beach.

0 -1 0 0
8215 Aalogsdon Aalogsdon Photograph in Saturday Evening Post Photograph in Saturday Evening Post 2/17/2012 12:08:00 PM

I have a copy of a photograph taken in the late 40s by Jef Coffey. On the back
of the photo was marked "SEP, Alcoholics Anon. Des Moines." Subject is picture
of a man in black and white walking up a flight of steps toward a door which
says in large letters, "Welcome AA".

Photo was taken of a meeting place on Locust street in Des Moines Iowa. Need to
know date of Saturday Evening Post where this picture was published. Thanks.

0 -1 0 0
8216 atpeace1989 atpeace1989 Re: AA Today AA Today 2/13/2012 3:31:00 AM

From atpeace, john wikelius, and mrpetesplace

- - - -

From: atpeace1989@yahoo.com> (atpeace1989 at yahoo.com)

A person can still purchase the book in either hard cover or Soft cover if you
can find them. E-Bay occasionally has one for sale. I have found a couple of
them at Estate Sales. Since most Alcoholics attending them are looking for a
first edition they sometimes overlook the other books on the shelf. I have in
the past attempted using the concept that it is referred to in "As Bill Sees It"
four times that the GSO Literature or the Grapevine reprint it again in a soft
cover. But as with most things in AA it takes much time to do something that
seems to make sense. Everyone is so wrapped in fear of doing something that
nothing happens.

- - - -

From: john wikelius justjohn1431946@yahoo.com>
(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)

pamelafro@bigfoot.com> wrote //GSO in New York has a series of "AA Today" in
their library - have used them for research in situ.//

John replies: I have several copies myself. They are very informative.

- - - -

From: "mrpetesplace" peter@aastuff.com> (peter at aastuff.com)

I'm going to try and find a soft cover this week and scan it for upload. I'll
try and do it sometime next weekend. I know I have them, I just don't know the
exact box. I don't want to open the hard cover wide and flat, especially since I
have a soft cover.

I'll keep you posted.

Peter

0 -1 0 0
8217 jax760 jax760 The Story of S.H. Hadley The Story of S.H. Hadley 2/19/2012 1:28:00 PM

Many have seen the abridged story of Sam's Spiritual Experience as told by
William James in the Varieties of Religious Experience. For the full story told
in Sam's own words please follow the link below.

God Bless

John B.

http://www.bbsgsonj.com/apps/documents/categories/show/48209

0 -1 0 0
8218 marathonmanric marathonmanric Re: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 2/17/2012 9:43:00 AM

Having grown up in AA in Miami, I was always told that it was the Miami Heart
Institute, located on the North side of the Julia Tuttle Causeway as one drove
from the mainland over to Miami Beach.

It is also said that a Swedish Ivy sat by his bedside which Lois took and cut
clippings from and gave to members with the instructions, after rooting their
plants to continue cutting clipping, rooting them and to keep passing them on.

I have my plant which I have passed on hundreds of times.
Ric B
5-14-1995

0 -1 0 0
8219 john wikelius john wikelius Re: What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? What kind of meetings in 1839 would promote abstinence? 2/6/2012 5:02:00 PM

The meeting was probably a temperance meeting. The Woman's Christian Temperance
Union [started later on, in 1873-74] had meetings also for reform of the
drinking laws. I have a newspaper from 1815 which addresses Temperance and
prohibition from drink.

0 -1 0 0
8220 Roy Levin Roy Levin Was it Dr Bob's story? Could he ever drink again? Was it Dr Bob's story? Could he ever drink again? 2/17/2012 2:16:00 PM

Was it Dr Bob's story, or another early AA's?

I seem to remember someone asking Dr. Bob, I think it was Dr Bob, if he would
ever drink again, and he replied, "I can't promise you I will never drink again,
but as long as I feel the way I'm feeling today, and continue to do what I'm
doing (working the program) I don't believe I will drink."  This is a paraphrase
from memory.  I thought it was in Bob's Nightmare, but maybe it's in another
early AA's story in the Big Book, or I read it in one of the biographical books
somewhere. 
 
Can anybody redirect me back to this story or quote from whichever AA book I
remember it from?
 
Appreciate it.
 
Roy L.  aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78

0 -1 0 0
8221 gadgetsdad gadgetsdad Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post Photograph in Saturday Evening Post 2/19/2012 4:19:00 PM

I checked the magazines. That photo is in the 7/2/1955 issue, Jerome Ellison
article.

0 -1 0 0
8222 mlb9292 mlb9292 The two hopeless cases? -- Dr. Percy Pollick on BB page 43 The two hopeless cases? -- Dr. Percy Pollick on BB page 43 2/22/2012 10:50:00 AM

Who were the 2 men who were described as 100% hopeless on page 43 in the Big
Book?

We know that the "staff member of a world renowned hospital" was Dr. Percy
Pollick at Bellevue Hospital in New York City. But do we know who the two men
were? The story in the Big Book says:

<












>

Thanks and God Bless You All ... Old Ben from Tulsa

0 -1 0 0
8223 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Bridge of Reason Bridge of Reason 2/22/2012 6:38:00 AM

The word reason is used 20 times in the first '164' - once each in the Foreword
to the 2nd Edition, There Is A Solution, More About Alcoholism & the Family
Afterward - 3 times in both Into Action and To Employers - 4 times in Working
With Others - 6 times in We Agnostics -

The word reason is capitalized in the expression "Some of us had already walked
far over the Bridge of Reason to the desired shore of faith." - and in these two
sentences- "We were grateful Reason had brought us so far." - "Perhaps we had
been leaning too heavily on Reason that last mile and we did not like to lose
our support" - all on pp53 (4th ed) of We Agnostics -

I have The Book That Started It All - the original manuscript in it is similarly
capitalized -

As a matter of note, the word bridge does not appear in the King James version
of the Bible - the word reason appears 88 times, none of which is capitalized -

Also the word bridge appears in This Believing World 3 times with no reference
to the bridge of reason - the word reason is used about 27 times, none
capitalized -

In "The Decline of the West, the bridge of reason appears once sans capitals
(see Exhibit I) - reason was capitalized once (see Exhibit II) out of about 110
usages - it is a digital scan and I couldn't verify with the original -

I know there is a hymn "Bridge of Reason, Shore of Faith", but I don't think
Bill was referring to that hymn? -

What is the "Bridge of Reason"?

Why was "Reason" capitalized, twice?

Might we have to settle for an educated guess by one of our knowledgeable
historians?

Larry Holbrook
(410) 802-3099
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com

=============================
Exhibit I
=============================
This beat of cosmic cycles goes on notwithstanding the freedom of micro-
cosmic movement in space, and from time to time breaks down the tension of the
waking individual's being into the one grand felt harmony. If we have ever fol-
lowed the flight of a bird in the high air -- how, always in the same way, it
rises, turns, glides, loses itself in the distance -- we must have felt the
plantlike
certainty of the "it" and the "we" in this ensemble of motion, which needs
no bridge of reason to unite your sense of it with mine. This is the meaning


THE COSMIC AND THE MICROCOSM 5

of war-dances and love-dances amongst men and beasts. In this wise a regi-"
ment mounting to the assault under fire is forged into a unity, in this wise
does
the crowd collect at some exciting occasion and become a body, capable of
thinking and acting pitifully, blindly, and strangely for a moment ere it falls
apart again. In such cases the microcosmic wall is obliterated. If jostles and
threatens, if pushes and pulls, if flees, swerves, and sways. Limbs intertwine,
feet rush, one cry comes from every mouth, one destiny overlies all. Out of a
sum of little single worlds comes suddenly a complete whole.
=============================
Exhibit II
=============================
We have our Euhemeristic interpretations of
Hell as a guilty conscience, the Devil as evil desire, and God as the beauty of
nature, and it is the same tendency that declares itself when Attic tomb-in-
scriptions of about 400 invoke, not the city-goddess Athene, but a goddess
"Demos" -- a near relation, by the way, of the Jacobins' Goddess of Reason
-- and where the Sainoviov for Socrates, vovs for other philosophers, take the
place of Zeus. Confucius says "heaven" instead of "Shang-ti," which means
that he believes only in laws of nature. The "collection" and "ordering" of
the canonical writings of China by the Confucians was a colossal act of Euhemer-
ism, in which actually almost all the old religious works were literally de-
stroyed and the residue subjected to rationalist falsification.
==============================

0 -1 0 0
8224 john wikelius john wikelius Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post Photograph in Saturday Evening Post 2/22/2012 12:36:00 AM

Can supply cover art if you want to identify magazine in your travels.

john wikelius justjohn1431946@yahoo.com>
(justjohn1431946 at yahoo.com)


________________________________
From: gadgetsdad gadgetsdad@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post

I checked the magazines. That photo is in the 7/2/1955 issue, Jerome Ellison
article.

0 -1 0 0
8225 Cindy Miller Cindy Miller Re: Photograph in Saturday Evening Post Photograph in Saturday Evening Post 2/22/2012 4:57:00 PM

What photo? Could you kindly tell us WHAT photo you are talking about?

Thank You

-Cindy Miller
NOT sent from an iPhone

0 -1 0 0
8226 joe joe AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark 2/24/2012 6:45:00 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-02-17/alcohol-anoymous-founders-h\
ome-national-landmark/53134838/1


Interesting AA history article in USA Today and other papers today.

AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark
By Rob Ryser, The (Westchester, N.Y.) Journal NewsUpdated 6d 15h ago Comments
BEDFORD HILLS, N.Y. – The royal couple of Alcoholics Anonymous would become as
American as the Statue of Liberty under a federal recommendation to crown the
home of the group's co-founders as a National Historic Landmark.
The high historic honor, which could be official as soon as the spring, would
note not only the national importance of the AA movement and the essential role
that Bill and Lois Wilson played in it, but would also validate the struggle
anyone has had using the 12 steps to overcome an addiction.
"What they did and what this program does has had an enormous impact on the
country because it's a program for dealing with life as well as a program for
dealing with alcoholism," said Jim M. of Somers, a 57-year-old retired
accountant who got sober four years ago in AA and is bound by the program's
principles to remain anonymous when speaking with the media. "So anything that
brings attention to these principles can only help people live better lives and
stop hurting other people."
Those who are responsible for preserving the Wilson home and 8-acre grounds,
known by the name Stepping Stones that the couple gave it, see the landmark
status as part of a natural progression of increasing recognition for the
Wilsons' accomplishments. Bill Wilson co-founded AA and declared alcoholism a
disease decades before doctors did. Lois Wilson co-founded Al-Anon for families
of alcoholics and made provisions for her home to be a resource for recovery
after her death.

Stepping Stones Foundation
Bill and Lois Wilson sit outside their home, Stepping Stones, in 1960.
While for years the nonprofit's use of the home in this neighborhood raised few
objections, the increasing visibility of the AA shrine has started to bother
some neighbors.
The irony is at a time when the Wilsons' contributions are being recognized in a
wider national context, their property is being scrutinized more narrowly by
neighbors, said Annah Perch, executive director of the Stepping Stones
Foundation.
The stewards of the Wilson legacy do not see greatly increased numbers of people
coming to the site as a result of landmark status beyond the 3,000 annual
visitors Stepping Stones has attracted since it was listed on the National
Register of Historic Places in 2004.
"Stepping Stones is not the typical historic preservation site," said James
Moogan of Kent, a retired deputy commissioner of the state Parks Department and
president of the Stepping Stones Foundation board. "It is more of a pilgrimage
that is not really on the radar."
But don't tell that to Diane Briganti, 56, who lives across the street from the
Wilson home entrance and keeps notes and photos of cars, crowds, buses and
trucks arriving for Stepping Stones events. She has fought against the home
because she says it detracts from property values in the residential
neighborhood.
"This is a negative," Briganti said. "It could be a cellphone tower across the
street and it would have the same effect on the value of my house."
She plans to send a petition to the National Park Service, which is reviewing
the recommendation.
A historian at the National Park Service's Washington office said the advisory
board, which will review the Stepping Stones recommendation before sending it to
the Secretary of the Interior, considers all comments from the public. The
board's decision will rely heavily on the direction of the committee of experts
that has unanimously recommended national landmark status for Stepping Stones,
historian Patty Henry said.
Henry added that during the spring, a similar landmark effort is planned for the
Akron, Ohio, home of Dr. Bob Smith, the surgeon who co-founded AA and helped
Wilson develop the peer treatment concept of one drunk helping another drunk to
stay sober.
Among the home's items sacred to recovering alcoholics is the kitchen table
where Bill Wilson developed the idea that faith in a higher power was a more
palatable idea for an alcoholic than faith in God, and the desk in his shed
where he wrote about the need for conversion, confession and faith in recovery.
Bart Tyler, proprietor of Kelloggs & Lawrence Hardware in downtown Katonah,
welcomes the landmark designation.
"I can certainly attest to the great many people who come by on foot or in cars
or taxis looking for directions to the Stepping Stones property. It is one of
the most popular destinations that brings visitors to our town."

0 -1 0 0
8227 joe joe Re: Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model 2/24/2012 6:59:00 AM

I am a 23 year military veteran sober all of that time. I am an AA history buff
with a great interest in AA history especially when it is connected to the
military. this is a fascinating topic for me, I have read both "With a lot of
help from our friends" and "On the Military Firing lines". I also met Dr Zuska
and corresponded by email with Sgt Bill Swegan before they left this earth. I
have talked to many members of the early Long Beach Ice Breakers and Dry Docks
Groups and both employees and patients at the first Navy treatment center in
Long Beach including Frank H. whose office was used for the first 12th step that
became the Icebreakers Group - (an underground AA meeting for senior military
officials could go similar to Birds of Feather).
I would love to discuss the ideas put forth in the book and look forward to
getting the new release of Bill Swegan/Glen Chesnut ideas and reviewing what I
read.
I offer these ideas as food for thought until that can happen.
- The AF does not seem to have any records of the "Lackland Model".
- My correspondence with Bill Swegan before he passed and my reading of his book
did not lead me to the conclusion he was more focused on the psychological and
less on the spiritual - I will review to see if I can gleen that theme.
- Other than this alleged acquantence, "Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and
provided the link between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach
Navy program" there seems to be no connection between Lackland and Long Beach
treatment attempts and I do not recall Nancy Olsen ever discussing Lackland in
the development of legislation, but did know and rely on help from Long beach.
Respectfully submitted.



--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
> Chapter 16. Twelfth Stepping the Military
> http://hindsfoot.org/help16.pdf
>
> Chapter 17. Alcoholics with Gold Braid
> http://hindsfoot.org/help17.pdf
>
> (Taken from Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of
Alcoholism (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html )
>
> The Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment was first developed at
Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953-1961 by William E. Swegan
and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon ("Jolly") West.
>
> In Chapter 16, Nancy Olson describes the further development of this type of
AA-related alcoholism treatment program by psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Zuska and
Navy Commander Dick Jewell at the Long Beach Naval Station in California in the
years 1965 and following. (Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link
between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program.)
>
> Dr. Zuska, although not an alcoholic himself, was beloved at a deep personal
level by several generations of AA people in that part of California because of
all he had done to help alcoholics -- hundreds and hundreds of them owed their
lives to him, and they knew it.
>
> Betty Ford, wife of U.S. President Ford, was sent to the Long Beach treatment
program to get sober, and U.S. President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was
also sent there because of its outstanding record in getting alcoholics sober.
>
> Then Nancy goes on in Chapter 17 to describe the hearings before the U.S.
Senate subcommittee on alcoholism and drug abuse in the U.S. military in 1970.
Also more on Joe Zuska and the Navy alcoholism treatment program which he
developed at Long Beach.
>

0 -1 0 0
8228 planternva2000 planternva2000 Re: Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model 2/24/2012 4:58:00 PM

Just a few personal notes on Joe Zuska and the Long Beach facility.
I underwent treatment at Long Beach during September and October of 1971 after
two months in psychiatric wards on the East Coast. I met (Capt.) Jim B. when he
visited to see how the clinic operated. Later, back on the East Coast, we again
met and I found I had joined the home group of which he was a member.

The Norfolk ARC opened in an abandoned barracks at the Naval Amphibious Station
in Virginia Beach before moving to Norfolk Naval Station.

In 1972 I deployed to the Western Pacific aboard an aircraft carrier with one
other AA aboard, "Hoppy," who had seven years. We pulled into Subic Bay, P.I. on
my first AA birthday. The AA population at that time (July, 1972) consisted of
Howard, who had been a loner for a number of years, and Dave, a sailor Howard
had twelfth stepped three months earlier. On our last visit to Subic in March,
'72, the group had grown considerably, they had daily meetings, and a ward in
the base hospital set aside for alcoholism treatment.

Jim S.

0 -1 0 0
8229 J.BARRY Murtaugh J.BARRY Murtaugh Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark 2/24/2012 11:51:00 AM

From Barry Murtaugh and Norm the Tinman

- - - -

From: "J.BARRY Murtaugh" murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com>
(murtaughjbarry1 at gmail.com)

Quote from Kurt Vonnegut one of my favorite authors
© Rolling Stone magazine · May 28,1998, 787:183

The Work to Be Done, by Kurt Vonnegut

*"The only specifically American inventions that have made this a better world
are Alcoholics Anonymous and jazz, and jazz has no bad side effects."*

No one could say it better (except to add the Grateful Dead!) IMHO.

bear

- - - -

From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com>
(normtinman at yahoo.com)

Hey guys, are we sure it was Bill who called Alcoholism a disease --though
reading it was Dr Silkworth first, and Bill had used it at first then stopped
along the way.

=============================================
QUOTE: "Bill Wilson co-founded AA and declared alcoholism a disease decades
before doctors did."

FROM: An interesting AA history article in USA Today and other papers today

"AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-02-17/alcohol-anoymous-founders-h\
ome-national-landmark/53134838/1


By Rob Ryser, The (Westchester, N.Y.) Journal News BEDFORD HILLS, N.Y.

POSTED ON THE AAHL BY:
joe chief_roger@yahoo.com> (chief_roger at yahoo.com)
=============================================

0 -1 0 0
8230 Jay Pees Jay Pees Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark 2/25/2012 2:17:00 PM

Dr Benjamin Rush, a signer of the American Declaration of Independence, was the
first to describe it as a disease.
>
> - - - -
>
> From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com>
> (normtinman at yahoo.com)
>
> Hey guys, are we sure it was Bill who called Alcoholism a disease --though
> reading it was Dr Silkworth first, and Bill had used it at first then
> stopped along the way.

0 -1 0 0
8231 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist 2/25/2012 3:56:00 PM

"Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist"
by Glenn F. Chesnut

http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html

Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the
Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story
"The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his
article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May
1968.

- - - -

This article is part of the ongoing research on

"Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus
Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous"

at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html



(Referenced close to the top of page
http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html )

0 -1 0 0
8232 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Sally and David R. Brown rediscover William E. Swegan's work Sally and David R. Brown rediscover William E. Swegan's work 2/25/2012 4:09:00 PM

"2001: Sally and David R. Brown rediscover William E. Swegan's alcoholism
treatment programs of the 1940s and 50s"

http://hindsfoot.org/swegmarty.html

Bill Swegan's pioneering work in the 1940's and 50's in using AA in
institutional alcoholism treatment programs had become largely forgotten by the
end of the century. But then c. 2000, what he had done was rediscovered by Sally
and David Brown while they were researching their great book on Mrs. Marty Mann,
who had been Bill's mentor and patron.



(As referenced around the middle of

http://hindsfoot.org/essays.html

which contains several good photographs
of Bill Swegan and one of Marty Mann)

0 -1 0 0
8233 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Bill Swegan on the steps: a nontheistic / atheistic interpretation Bill Swegan on the steps: a nontheistic / atheistic interpretation 2/25/2012 4:04:00 PM

"A nontheistic / atheistic way of working
the twelve steps: William E. Swegan"

http://hindsfoot.org/atheistswsteps.html

An article by Glenn F. Chesnut in which he explains how Sgt. Bill Swegan
successfully worked the steps from the standpoint of a dedicated ethical
humanism.

Swegan thought of his Higher Power in terms of the laws of nature and
the healing forces within nature which could return our minds to sanity and
reason, in combination with the rationalist's faith that truth and honesty would
always ultimately triumph over error and ignorance.

We needed to develop a whole lot more faith and trust -- not in some childish
idea of a personal God who would magically rescue us from everything if we just
spoke the right words -- but faith and trust in ourselves. We needed to replace
the compulsion to carry out continual self-sabotage with a new spirit of
self-confidence and resolution.


=====================================
Or in Bill Swegan's own words, see

BILL 'S CHAPTER ON THE TOPIC:
Chapter 18. "Recovery through the Twelve Steps"

http://hindsfoot.org/psyalc18.pdf

as taken from William E. Swegan,
The Psychology of Alcoholism (2011).
=====================================



(Referenced at the bottom of page
http://hindsfoot.org/kbs1.html )

0 -1 0 0
8234 Omyword Omyword Re: Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist 2/26/2012 10:23:00 AM

I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is significant in
AA history. Am I right to understand that it was added in the Second Edition of
Alcoholics Anonymous?

Appendix II makes clear that the idea that recovery from alcoholism is and must
be from a God-conscious experience in AA, is erroneous; some of the recoveries
were of an educational, not a religious experience.

What is the History of this document? Is this penned by Bill W.? It seems to me
to be spoken in a voice that differs from the 164 pages. If so, is this Bill's
maturation or did someone else draft this document?

Any input would be welcome.

Joe C

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
> "Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist"
> by Glenn F. Chesnut
>
> http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html
>
> Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on
the Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his
story "The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in
his article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in
May
> 1968.
>
> - - - -
>
> This article is part of the ongoing research on
>
> "Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus
> Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous"
>
> at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html
>
>
>
> (Referenced close to the top of page
> http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html )
>

0 -1 0 0
8235 Robert Stonebraker Robert Stonebraker Appendix II Appendix II 2/26/2012 1:13:00 PM

Joe, et al,

Appendix II was first published in the second printing of the first edition Big
Book in 1941, just about two years after the first printing.

In summing up William James' "educational variety," the first full paragraph of
page 568 (fourth edition) states: "Most of us think this awareness of Power
greater than ourselves is the essence of a spiritual experience. Our more
religious members call it: "God-consciousness." Please note the letter "P," in
the word Power, is capitalized, indicating God.

Thank you for the question concerning the authorship of Appendix II. I have
always assumed it was Bill Wilson.

Bob S.


===========================================
I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is significant in
AA history. Am I right to understand that it was added in the Second Edition of
Alcoholics Anonymous?

Appendix II makes clear that the idea that recovery from alcoholism is and must
be from a God-conscious experience in AA, is erroneous; some of the recoveries
were of an educational, not a religious experience.

What is the History of this document? Is this penned by Bill W.? It seems to me
to be spoken in a voice that differs from the 164 pages. If so, is this Bill's
maturation or did someone else draft this document?

Any input would be welcome.

Joe C
===========================================

0 -1 0 0
8236 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Father Ralph Pfau: A.A. Author and American Catholic Thinker Father Ralph Pfau: A.A. Author and American Catholic Thinker 2/26/2012 5:23:00 PM

"Father Ralph Pfau: Alcoholics Anonymous
Author and American Catholic Thinker"
by Glenn F. Chesnut
http://hindsfoot.org/pfcath.pdf

Topics include his founding of the National Catholic Council on Alcoholism
(along with its publication the NCCA Blue Book.

At that time, James Cardinal McIntyre, who was Archbishop of Los Angeles from
1948 until 1978, was an arch-traditionalist who was deeply opposed to Alcoholics
Anonymous. Fr. Ralph, who (when sober) was a skillful ecclesiastical politician,
brought in Archbishops Paul Schulte and Joseph Ritter to help him defend A.A.,
along with Ritter's Auxiliary Bishop John Cody (later John Patrick Cardinal
Cody, Archbishop of Chicago).

Also the major influence of Spanish translations of his writings on early AA in
the Spanish Catholic world (they were originally far more widely available than
Spanish translations of the Big Book).

Also the topic of scrupulosity and obsessive-compulsive perfectionism, the
problem of guilt and shame, the influence of St. Therese of Lisieux's teaching
of the Little Way and St. Augustine's anti-Pelagian writings, and theological
disagreements with Father Ed Dowling.

Also Fr. Ralph's argument that AA dealt only with the via purgativa (and was not
involved in the via illuminativa or via unitiva), his insistence that the Big
Book taught only natural theology and natural law morality.

Also Fr. Ralph's his work to spread the teachings of the early
cognitive-behaviorist psychiatrist Dr. Abraham Low and Recovery Inc. (which used
the modern study of semantics to counter Freud and Schopenhauer).

Also Pfau's theory of sinner saints "sanctified" because their willingness to
keep on trying has been "sanctioned" by God, his campaign to win sainthood for
Matt Talbot, the Third Covenant Controversy at the AA International in 1950, his
falling out with Bill W. over anonymity (and their making peace in Toronto in
1965).



(Original reference 1/3 of the way down
http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html )

0 -1 0 0
8237 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? Who first called alcoholism a disease? 2/25/2012 3:23:00 PM

From Norm The Tinman and Laurie Andrews

- - - -

From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:23 pm
Subject: Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark

Thanks Jay--glad we got that straightened out--can you tell me where you found
it please ?

Norm

- - - -

See earlier post from: Jay Pees racewayjay@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AA co-founders' N.Y. home could become national landmark
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 2:17 PM

Dr Benjamin Rush, a signer of the American Declaration of Independence, was the
first to describe it as a disease.

- - - -

See earlier post from: normtinman@yahoo.com>
(normtinman at yahoo.com)

Hey guys, are we sure it was Bill who called Alcoholism a disease -- though
reading it was Dr Silkworth first, and Bill had used it at first then stopped
along the way.

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Bill was careful not to describe alcoholism as a disease, see my posting 5689
e.g.

Laurie A.

0 -1 0 0
8238 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist 2/27/2012 7:56:00 PM

Hi Kathy

Would loved to have talked to this man -- in a lot of ways I can understand why
he believes this way -- he has saved a lot of people's lives, by fighting to
have that"God as we understood Him" phrase in the B B -- I believe it was he and
Hank Parkhurst that were non believers -- many times we hear members with long
time sobriety talk about religious things at meetings -- I don't say anything
directly to the person, but make sure if it's a discussion meeting, when it's my
turn, say a few things about the phrase above and tradition 3 -- we all need
time to decide what belief we come to believe -- the book says we came to
believe ;/)

I'm rambling -- thanks Kathy

- - - -

Message #8231 from Glenn Chesnut
glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
Sat Feb 25, 2012

"Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist"
by Glenn F. Chesnut

http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html

Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the
Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story
"The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his
article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May
1968.

- - - -

This article is part of the ongoing research on

"Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus
Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous"

at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html



(Referenced close to the top of page
http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html )

0 -1 0 0
8239 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: Appendix II Appendix II 2/26/2012 6:02:00 PM

From Tommy Hickcox, Chuck Parkhurst, and John Steeves

- - - -

From:Tom Hickcox cometkazie1@cox.net>
(cometkazie1 at cox.net)

At 10:23 2/26/2012, Joe C/Omyword wrote:

>I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is
>significant in AA history. Am I right to understand that it was
>added in the Second Edition of Alcoholics Anonymous?

It was added to the Second Printing of the First Edition, published
in March 1941.

Do a search of the archives of A.A.H.L. for "Appendix II" and you
will find a lot of material on it.

Glenn C's recent link to his article on Jim Burwell also has some
material on religious vs educational "spiritual awakenings".

Tommy H in Danville

- - - -

From: "Chuck Parkhurst" ineedpage63@cox.net>
(ineedpage63 at cox.net)

In Appendix II the "conclusion" that is "erroneous" is the conclusion that the
"personality changes, or religious experiences" had by our members (to bring
about recovery from alcoholism) "must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular
upheavals." Further on in Appendix II, the authors state these "experiences"
(personality changes or religious experiences) can "develop slowly over a period
of time." The terms "religious experience" and "educational variety" are not
mutually exclusive.

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

- - - -

From: John Steeves honest03060@yahoo.com>
(honest03060 at yahoo.com)

Hi,

That is one person's interpretation.

Another maybe that all recovered alcoholics have spiritual experiences; some
sudden and spectacular and others more slowly (or educational) both result in
the same change and help the alcoholic to achieve the following: "...awareness
of a Power greater than ourselves the essence of spiritual experience. Our more
religious members call it "God-consciousness."

Just another person's interpretation.

Read the black not the white as my sponsor always said.

SWJ

_____________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Omyword
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012
Subject: Re: Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist

I think the addition of Appendix II, The Spiritual Experience is significant in
AA history. Am I right to understand that it was added in the Second Edition of
Alcoholics Anonymous?

Appendix II makes clear that the idea that recovery from alcoholism is and must
be from a God-conscious experience in AA, is erroneous; some of the recoveries
were of an educational, not a religious experience.

What is the History of this document? Is this penned by Bill W.? It seems to me
to be spoken in a voice that differs from the 164 pages. If so, is this Bill's
maturation or did someone else draft this document?

Any input would be welcome.

Joe C

_____________________________________________

Referring to message #8231 from Glenn Chesnut
glennccc@sbcglobal.net> (glennccc at sbcglobal.net)
Sat Feb 25, 2012

"Jim Burwell: early AA's first famous atheist"
by Glenn F. Chesnut

http://hindsfoot.org/atheistburwell.html

Jimmy Burwell's journey to sobriety and serenity, as given in the chapter on the
Third Tradition in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (1953), in his story
"The Vicious Cycle" in the second edition of the Big Book (1955), and in his
article "Sober For Thirty Years" which he published in the AA Grapevine in May
1968.

- - - -

This article is part of the ongoing research on

"Atheism, Moral Psychology, and the Deus
Non Vocatus in early Alcoholics Anonymous"

at http://hindsfoot.org/atheist.html



(Referenced close to the top of page
http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html )

0 -1 0 0
8240 John Barton John Barton Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? Who first called alcoholism a disease? 2/27/2012 12:14:00 PM

This information is not correct. While Rush was certainly an early proponent of
the disease concept it was posited as a "disease" entity before the late 1700s
and probably over in Europe first. Can't say for certain who said it first but
it was certainly not Rush. Perhaps Jared, Bill White or Ernie could chime in. If
I have a chance I'll see if I can pull out Jellinek's book which I think listed
some sort of timeline.
 
Regards

0 -1 0 0
8241 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Change in Daily Reflections Change in Daily Reflections 3/1/2012 10:53:00 AM

My home group reads the entry for the day's date at the beginning of
every meeting. I normally follow along on my PDA.

Imagine my surprise when the reading wasn't the same?

My Daily Reflections is the Fourth Printing, February 1991 and
February 29th is the Third Tradition. Current printings have a
reading from the Big Book, p. 57.

When was this change effected and why? Since the book is published
by the conference, I would expect that the change went thru the
vetting process.

Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8242 Arthur S Arthur S Re: Appendix II Appendix II 2/28/2012 6:04:00 PM

In March 1941, almost two years after the first printing, the wording of Step 12
was changed in the second printing of the Big Book. The term "spiritual
experience" was changed to "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of
these steps" was changed to "as the result of those steps."

An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was also added. Many members thought
they had to have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one
Bill W describes in the chapter "Bill's Story." The appendix emphasized that
most spiritual experiences developed slowly over time and were of the
"educational variety."

The so-called Spencer quotation (i.e. ". contempt prior to investigation .") was
added to Appendix II in the fourth printing of the second edition in 1960.

Cheers

Arthur

- - - -

From Glenn C. glennccc@sbcglobal.net>
(glennccc at sbcglobal.net)

BIG BOOK QUOTATION IS NOT FROM HERBERT SPENCER
but actually from William Paley

===========================================
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof
against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting
ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Big Book (4th
edition) page 568.
===========================================

Michael StGeorge, in his classic article "The Survival of a Fitting Quotation,"
shows that it was actually taken not from Herbert Spencer (1820-1903), but from
an earlier author, William Paley (1743-1805).

For a copy of StGeorge's article see
http://hindsfoot.org/stgeorge.pdf

0 -1 0 0
8243 jax760 jax760 Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? Who first called alcoholism a disease? 2/29/2012 12:41:00 PM

From jax760, Art B, and Norm the Tinman

- - - -

From: "jax760" jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

The following from William White should be given more weight than many of
articles, essays, etc found on the internet that identify Trotter and Rush as
the "originators" of the disease concept.

"The conceptualization of chronic drunkenness as a disease did not originate in
America. References to chronic drunkenness as a sickness of the body and soul,
and the presence of specialized roles to care for people suffering from "drink
madness," can be found in the
civilizations of ancient Egypt and Greece. Isolated and periodic references to
chronic drunkenness as a disease, and even occasional calls for state-sponsored
treatment, continued through the centuries before the first European migrations
to America."

White, W. (2000) Addiction as a Disease: Birth of a Concept. Counselor,
1(1):46-51, 73.

By the way, the four articles written by White in 2000 are a must read for any
AA Historian or those who wish to understand "alcoholism" and the "disease
concept" better.

God Bless,

John

- - - -

From: "Art B" artb@netwiz.net>
(artb at netwiz.net)

Dear Norm,

The book "Slaying the Dragon," by William L. White, describes the efforts by
Benjamin Rush to describe how to be cured of alcoholism. His suggestion was to
not take the first drink.

Sincerely,

Art Boudreault

- - - -

From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com>
(normtinman at yahoo.com)

Hi Guys
Guess the statement I put on here was questioning was this newspaper article
correct saying Bill was first to use term disease -- I knew he wasn't, but
wanted some input from others also before saying so -- thanks all Norm

0 -1 0 0
8244 Arthur S Arthur S Re: Who first called alcoholism a disease? Who first called alcoholism a disease? 2/28/2012 6:08:00 PM

From Arthur S. and Laurence Holbrook

- - - -

From: Arthur S arthur.s@live.com>
(arthur.s at live.com)

The first American physician to call alcoholism a disease was Dr Benjamin Rush.

He was a member of the Continental Congress, a signer of the Declaration of
Independence and Surgeon General of the Army during the American Revolution. He
is often called both the father of American psychiatry and father of the
American temperance movement.

In 1784, Rush wrote a paper titled "An Enquiry into the Effects of Ardent
Spirits on the Human Body and Mind." He described habitual drunkenness as "a
progressive and odious disease" and that total abstinence "suddenly and
entirely" was the only effective treatment.

In 1810 Rush also called for the creation of what he called "sober houses" where
alcoholics could be confined and rehabilitated. This was the forerunner of
Treatment Centers.

It's a bit ironic that Dr Bob, during some of the worst years of his drinking,
received his medical degree from Rush University which was named in honor of Dr
Benjamin Rush, a pioneer in the treatment of alcoholism.

Cheers

Arthur

*******************************************

From: "Laurence Holbrook" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>
(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)

http://books.google.com/books?id=-6UoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=Inquiry+into+the\
+Effects+of+Ardent+Spirits+upon+the+Human+Body+and+Mind&source=bl&ots=neE4ikAVwJ\
&sig=qWzSLX3XCiqJNol20omtRZLlPvQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rFRNT6OEM4nlsQL_7aEh&ved=0CCoQ6AE\
wAQ#v=onepage&q=disease&f=false


By BENJAMIN RUSH
Professor of medicine in the University of Pennsylvania
[published in 1823]

"An inquiry into the effects of ardent
spirits upon the human body and mind ..."

[p 5]

By ardent spirits, i mean those liquors only which are obtained by distillation
from fermented substances of any kind. to their effects upon the bodies and
minds of men, the following inquiry shall be exclusively confined. Fermented
liquors contain so little spirit, and that so intimately combined with other
matters, that they can seldom be drunken in sufficient quantities to produce
intoxication, and it's subsequent effects, without exciting a disrelish to their
taste, or pain, from their distending the stomach. They are, moreover, when
taken in a moderate quantity, generally innocent, and often have a friendly
influence upon health and life.

The effects of ardent spirits divide themselves into such as are of a prompt,
and such as are of a chronic nature. The former discover themselves in
drunkenness; and the latter, in a numerous train of diseases and vices of the
body and mind.

I. I shall begin by briefly describing their prompt, or immediate effects, in a
fit of drunkenness.

This odious disease (for by that name it should be called) appears with more or
less of the following symptoms, and most commonly in the order in which I shall
enumerate them.

1. Unusual garrulity.

2. Unusual silence.

3. Captiousness, and a disposition to quarrel.

4. Uncommon good humor, and an insipid simpering, or laugh.

5. Profane swearing, and cursing.

7. A disclosure of their own, or other people's secrets.

8. A rude disposition to tell those persons in company whom they know, their
faults.

9. Certain immodest actions. I am sorry to say, this sign of the first stage of
drunkenness, sometimes appears in women, who, when sober, are uniformly
remarkable for chaste and decent manners.

10. A clipping of words.

11. Fighting; a black eye, or a swelled nose, often mark this grade of
drunkenness.

12. Certain extravagant acts which indicate a temporary fit of madness. These
are singing, hallooing, roaring, imitating the noises of brute animals, jumping,
tearing off clothes, dancing naked, breaking glasses and china, and dashing
other articles of household furniture upon the ground or floor. After a while
the paroxysm of drunkenness is completely formed. The face now becomes flushed,
the eyes project, and are somewhat watery, winking is less frequent than in
natural; the under lip is protruded -- the head inclines a little to one
shoulder -- the jaw falls -- belchings and hiccup take place -- the limbs totter
-- the whole body staggers: -- The unfortunate subject of this history next
falls on his seat, -- he looks around him with a vacant countenance, and mutters
inarticulate sounds to himself -- he attempts to rise and walk. In this attempt,
he falls upon his side, from which he gradually turns upon his back. He now
closes his eyes, and falls into a profound sleep, frequently attended with
snoring, and profuse sweats, and sometimes with such a relaxation of the muscles
which confine the bladder and the lower bowels, as to produce a symptom which
delicacy forbids me to mention. In this condition, he often lies from ten,
twelve, and twenty-four hours, to two, three, four, and five days, an object of
pity and disgust to his family and friends. His recovery from this fit of
intoxication, is marked with several peculiar appearances. He opens his eyes,
and closes them again -- he gapes and stretches his limbs -- he then coughs and
pukes -- his voice is hoarse -- he rises with difficulty, and staggers to a
chair; his eyes resemble balls of fire -- his hands tremble -- he loathes the
sight of food -- he calls for a glass of spirits to compose his stomach -- now
and then he emits a deep-fetched sigh, or groan, from a transient twinge of
conscience, but he more frequently scolds, and curses every thing around him. In
this state of languor and stupidity, he remains for two or three days, before he
is able to resume his former habits of business and conversation ....

[p 8]

Let us next attend to the chronic effects of ardent spirits upon the body and
mind, in the body, they dispose to every form of acute disease; they moreover,
excite fevers in persons predisposed to them, from other causes. This has been
remarked in all the yellow fevers which have visited the cities of the United
States. Hard drinkers seldom escape, and rarely recover from them.

The following diseases are the usual consequences of the habitual use of ardent
spirits, viz.

1. A decay of appetite, sickness at stomach, and a puking of bile, or a
discharge of a frothy and viscid phlegm by hawking, in the morning.

2. Obstructions of the liver. The fable of Prometheus, on whose liver a vulture
was said to prey constantly, as a punishment for his stealing fire from heaven,
was intended to illustrate the painful effects of ardent spirits upon that organ
or the body.

[continues with 7 more chronic effects]

Larry Holbrook
(410) 802-3099
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com

0 -1 0 0
8245 Roger Wheatley Roger Wheatley An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 3/1/2012 4:14:00 PM

From: ROGER WHEATLEY chief_roger@yahoo.com>
(chief_roger at yahoo.com)

I have been unable to find a copy of the article written about the Lackland
treatment results:

Louis Jolyon West and William H [sic] Swegan,
An approach to alcoholism in the military service.
American Journal of Psychiatry 1956; 112, 1104-1009)

- - - -

FROM THE MODERATOR:

After the first edition of Bill Swegan's book came out in 2003, I packed away
all my research notes from this project, including my copy of this journal
article, which was an official offprint from the publisher from back at the time
when it was originally published. (I had gone through the document sentence by
sentence and word by word, back at that time). It's somewhere in a stack of
boxes down in my basement, I think, but it would take days to find it.

It can be downloaded online, but it seems to cost about $35 to download it:

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=146086

Does anybody in the AAHistoryLovers have a copy of the article easily available?
Or know how people could obtain a copy without it costing an arm and a leg?

Glenn C.

0 -1 0 0
8246 EdgarC EdgarC Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/2/2012 8:58:00 AM

In his book, Rural Free Delivery, Mark Whalon, childhood pal of Bill Wilson,
tells of shooting a woman identified only as Jeanne who Whalon says stalked him
on his postal delivery route. Whalon on page 123 of the first edition of the
book also tells of burying her " 'long side of my four regular wives and some
mail-order ones" in the family burying plot "beneath the sour apple tree."

I find little on Whalon beside a swell Life magazine feature from the '40s, and
nothing about serial killings. Was Whalon adding spice to his story, or is there
some truth to it?

Edgar C, Sarasota FL

0 -1 0 0
8247 rickcard47 rickcard47 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 3/2/2012 12:12:00 PM

I have what I believe are 2 of the 2nd edition, 1st printings. But they are not
the same. One of them is a bit thicker than the other, and has the "Spencer"
quote in Appendix II,the other does not have the Spencer quote in appendix II.

Arthur's message #8242 said the Spencer quote wasn't added until the 4th
printing of the 2nd edition.

Is it possible that some early 2nd editions came out without the printing
number?

Thanks in advance
Rick

0 -1 0 0
8248 cometkazie1@cox.net cometkazie1@c... RE: 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 3/3/2012 2:48:00 PM

THE SPENCER/PALEY QUOTE WAS ADDED TO
APPENDIX II IN THE THIRD PRINTING of
the 2nd edition, not the fourth printing

===============================
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:12 PM, rickcard47 wrote:

> I have what I believe are 2 of the 2nd edition, 1st printings. But
> they are not the same. One of them is a bit thicker than the other,
> and has the "Spencer" quote in Appendix II,the other does not have the
> Spencer quote in appendix II.
> Arthur's message #8242 said the Spencer quote wasn't added until the
> 4th printing of the 2nd edition.
> Is it possible that some early 2nd editions came out without the
> printing number?
===============================

None of the first three printings of the Second Edition have the
printing number in the front. The First and Second don't have the quote
attributed to Herbert Spencer, while the Third does.

The First Printing has the word "really" spelled "realy" on p. xx at the
front of the sixth printed line.

The Second Printing and subsequent have the word "really" spelled
correctly.

The Third Printing has "Other Publications" listed opposite the full
title page as well as the alleged Spencer quote.

My first four printings are all about the same size.

I suspect you have a First or a Second and a Third. A quick check of
the spelling of "really" on p. xx will tell.

Thanks for getting me off my duff and checking my books.

Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8249 LES COLE LES COLE RE: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/2/2012 12:21:00 PM

From Les Cole and jax760

- - - -

LES COLE elsietwo@msn.com> (elsietwo at msn.com)

March 3, 2012 Hello Edgar: I am very intrigued by your post. When I was writing
my new book about Rogers Burnham (see www.LesCole-AA.com) I searched for
information about Mark and after difficulty found a copy of "Rural Free
Delivery" at the University of Vermont Library.

They sent it to me as a loan and I found his poem "Lem's plan" very interesting
concerning the Vermont culture.

I do not recall reading what you quote below. Can you tell us where you got your
book, and if it can become available somewhere?

I knew Mark when I was a child and lived with Rog Burnham in the Burnham Camp on
Emerald Lake (1933). Mark was our mailman and I saw him often when he delivered
our mail to the RFD mailbox.

I can't believe he would be, or write about, being a murderer!

Susan Cheever wrote a chapter about Mark in her book My Name Is Bill. Have you
seen that? Lois wrote several things about Mark in her diaries. I read some of
these when I studied the archives at Stepping Stones in 2009, and I quote some
of these in my book. There is a picture of Mark and Charlie Richie hanging on
the wall in Bill's study on the hill at SS. (Charlie was the Burnhamcare-taker
of the Burnham properties in Vermont).

I'll tell you a story about Charlie and my father if you write to me on my
personal e-mail, elsietwo@msn.com . Thanks very much for your post.

Les ColeColorado Springs, CO

- - - -

From: "jax760" jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

BTW,

"Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle name according to
Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is buried in a cemetery on
the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House.

John B.

- - - -

FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR:

????? Was there more than one author named Mark Whalon ?????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Whalon
says that his name was Mark A., not John Mark:

"Mark A Whalon (1886–1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close
friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a
close influence on Wilson in his later life."

- - - -

Original message from: edgarc@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012
Subject: Mark Whalon a murderer?

In his book, Rural Free Delivery, Mark Whalon, childhood pal of Bill Wilson,
tells of shooting a woman identified only as Jeanne who Whalon says stalked him
on his postal delivery route. Whalon on page 123 of the first edition of the
book also tells of burying her " 'long side of my four regular wives and some
mail-order ones" in the family burying plot "beneath the sour apple tree."

Edgar C, Sarasota FL

0 -1 0 0
8250 MichaelD MichaelD Re: Appendix II Appendix II 3/4/2012 11:46:00 AM

In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com,
Arthur S wrote:
>
> An appendix titled "Spiritual Experience" was
> also added. Many members thought they had to
> have a sudden, spectacular spiritual experience
> similar to the one Bill W describes in the
> chapter "Bill's Story." The appendix emphasized
> that most spiritual experiences developed
> slowly over time and were of the "educational
> variety."


The Appendix did offer a guide for some form of time expectation, however, when
it says " what often takes place in a period of a few months, is more than what
can be accomplished with years of self discipline."

So it does note that, although the required spiritual awakening does not have to
be sudden, some results should be seen within a few months.

0 -1 0 0
8251 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: a man convinced against his will a man convinced against his will 3/3/2012 3:16:00 PM

RE: Origin of an AA quote: a man convinced against his will

Cf: The Artist's Concept, Big Book first edition, now included in
"Experience, Strength and Hope", page 130):

"... all that this study and research ever did for me was to show something
about why I drank. It substantiated a fact that I had known all along, that my
drinking was symptomatic. It did point out a road to better mental health but
it demanded something of me in return that I did not have to give. It asked of
me a power of self-will but it did not take into consideration that this
self-will was already drugged with poison - that I was very sick. Intuitively I
always knew that a person constrained to temperance by the domination of the
will is no more cured of his vice than if he were locked up in prison. I knew
that somehow, some way, the mental stream, the emotions, must be purified
before the right pathway could be followed."

BTW the chapter is headed with the quotation attributed to Herbert Spencer
which was later reprinted at the end of the Spiritual appendix in the Big Book.

- - - -

From: _Baileygc23@...
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010
Subject: Origin of an AA quote: a man convinced against his will

Schopenhauer (in his essays) says "A man convinced against his will is of the
same opinion still," and refers these words to a work by Samuel Butler called
Hudibras.

Here is Cliff Notes on the subject.

The origin of this old adage appears to go back a long time. So long, in fact,
that no one is really sure where it originally came from. It also appears in
many different forms in many different places.

Mary Wollstonecraft (1759-1797), the famous British writer and feminist (and
mother to the author of Frankenstein), included the quotation "Convince a man
against his will, He's of the same opinion still" in the notes to Chapter 5 of
her 1792 treatise, "A Vindication of the Rights of Woman." This adage is placed
in quotes, denoting that it wasn't original text, but without reference to the
source. So either she didn't know the origin of this saying or she assumed that
it was so popularly known that citing the source was unnecessary.

She might, however, have misquoted two lines from Samuel Butler's
(1612-1680) enormous 17th-century poem Hudibras. Part III, Canto iii, lines
547-550 read thus:

He that complies against his will
Is of his own opinion still
Which he may adhere to, yet disown,
For reasons to himself best known

Butler might have penned an original thought here, or he might have been
borrowing what was already an old saying even in his time. We'll probably never
know.

Read more:

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/Section/Who-wrote-A-man-convinced-against-his-will-is\
-of-the-same-opinion-still-.id-305408,articleId-41563.html#ixzz16oBzvOas


( http://www.cliffsnotes.com/Section/Who-wrote-
A-man-convinced-against-his-will-is-of-the-same-opinion-still-.
id-305408,articleId-41563.html#ixzz16oBzvOas )

0 -1 0 0
8252 joe joe Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 3/7/2012 6:14:00 AM

Bill Swegan has a fascinating AA story. He had great opportunities to uniquely
experience early AA. I found in the context of military history, that there is
more to the story. Ernest Kurtz wrote in Not-God regarding the American
historical context when AA itself began and grew, "By an almost too happy
historical coincidence, the self defined seed of Alcoholics Anonymous – Ebby's
visit to Clinton Street home of the then drinking Bill Wilson – was planted in
November 1934." (p.180) Ernie goes on to lay out the historical context of the
United States regarding religion, temperance, social, medical and psychological
thought in America at that time. AA probably could not have developed as it did
any other time or place in history.
Bill Swegan got sober at Mitchel AFB on July 5, 1948. The base had just been
designated the location for a newly formed Air Defense Command in March 1946.
The Air Force became a separate service in 1947 and the field became Mitchel Air
Force Base, just before Bill Swegan took his last drink. By 1949, Mitchel was
relieved of the responsibility for defending New York City because of the many
problems associated with operating tactical aircraft in the urban area. After
assuming a reserve mission, public pressure ultimately led to the field's
closure in June 1961 when the property was turned over to Nassau County for
redevelopment.
The location, Long Island, and the timing allowed Bill Swegan to meet Marty Mann
who would take an interest in him and his enthusiastic 12th step work. The
concurrent USAF history meant that there was a major Air Force Command on
Mitchel AFB from 1946-1949 when Bill was assigned there. With such a command
comes the brass to run it and the need for base operations support, such as
senior chaplains.
If Bill Swegan were to have sobered up any other time, his chance to serve as a
Chaplain's Assistant, made possible by the influence of Marty Mann, would not
have been possible. His sobriety, his speech to his unit, his meeting Marty Mann
through Yev Gardner, all occurred in the small window from 1948-1949 when there
would be a senior chaplain assigned to the Air Defense Command at Mitchel AFB.
Bill Swegan was not the only service member getting sober at the time. Several
others in the military found sobriety in the 1940's, many are recorded in the
Digital Archives of Grapevine and local AA archives. The difference in his story
is that he got the opportunity to attend the Yale School of Alcohol Studies,
work with Sister Ignatia, and participate in the first recorded alcoholism
treatment pilot attempted by the military. Had the timing of several factors
been different, he may not have had such an experience or helped all of those he
touched.

0 -1 0 0
8253 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst Boston Newspaper Boston Newspaper 3/7/2012 5:06:00 AM

Members

Does anyone know if the "historic fact" below is accurate?

March 7, 1941 -- Boston newspaper reported that any drunk who wanted to get
well was more than welcome at the AA meeting at 115 Newbury St., at 8 PM


In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst

0 -1 0 0
8254 Doug B. Doug B. Re: Change in Daily Reflections Change in Daily Reflections 3/6/2012 7:50:00 PM

The change came with the 5th printing of Daily Reflections. I'm not sure
why I was doing it, but I was checking the 29th, (as it is my wedding
anniversary) and out of the blue, the reading was different.

Doug B.
www.aahistory.com

0 -1 0 0
8255 Soberholic Soberholic Help with AA research papers? Help with AA research papers? 3/5/2012 4:00:00 AM

Greetings from Finland,
 
A Finnish AA friend of mine is working on his dissertation concerning AA. Last
time I saw him he asked for help. He is in desperate need of finding more
contemporary research papers on AA.
 
I'd be happy to help him but I cannot do it without help from my fellow members
in AAHL.
 
Links and references would be appreciated.
 
Yours Truly,
 
Soberholic

e-mail address soberholic@yahoo.com>
(soberholic at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
8256 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 3/7/2012 4:15:00 PM

Hey Joe, thanks for the words--like the rest of our fellowship, timing seems to
have been just precisely right for most of it -- I like the word synchronicity,
that's been used before ;/)

There has been a lot of coincidences over the years also -- Norm

0 -1 0 0
8257 J.BARRY Murtaugh J.BARRY Murtaugh Re: Help with AA research papers? Help with AA research papers? 3/7/2012 5:48:00 PM

There are several sources who check in with this group.
Hope they can help.

I subscribe to updates from:

*Alcohol and Drugs History Society*

which you can find by any search engine.

http://alcoholanddrugshistorysociety.wordpress.com

but it may not be exactly what you are looking for....

bear

0 -1 0 0
8258 Dolores Dolores Re: Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach Model 3/8/2012 11:55:00 AM

Greetings,

It is interesting to read about the alcohol treatment program in the States.
After the Hughes Act of Congress, and Dr.Jack Norris's visits to Germany 1970,
treatment centers were set up in Germany, the first being in Bad Cannstadt near
Stuttgart.

I believe Marty Mann was very influential in getting the alcohol treatment
centers on US Army and Air Force Bases in Germany started.

Until then , the AA meetings on the Bases were held in the Chaplain's office or
the Doctor's office.

Is there anything written about this to read and if so where can I read it?

Dolores


----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Chesnut
To: AAHistoryLovers group
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 8:56 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Dr. Joe Zuska and Dick Jewell: Lackland-Long Beach
Model

Chapter 16. Twelfth Stepping the Military
http://hindsfoot.org/help16.pdf

Chapter 17. Alcoholics with Gold Braid
http://hindsfoot.org/help17.pdf

(Taken from Nancy Olson, With a Lot of Help from Our Friends: The Politics of
Alcoholism (2003) http://hindsfoot.org/kno1.html )

The Lackland-Long Beach Model of alcoholism treatment was first developed at
Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, in 1953-1961 by William E. Swegan
and psychiatrist Dr. Louis Jolyon ("Jolly") West.

In Chapter 16, Nancy Olson describes the further development of this type of
AA-related alcoholism treatment program by psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Zuska and
Navy Commander Dick Jewell at the Long Beach Naval Station in California in the
years 1965 and following. (Dick Jewell knew Bill Swegan and provided the link
between the San Antonio Air Force program and the Long Beach Navy program.)

Dr. Zuska, although not an alcoholic himself, was beloved at a deep personal
level by several generations of AA people in that part of California because of
all he had done to help alcoholics -- hundreds and hundreds of them owed their
lives to him, and they knew it.

Betty Ford, wife of U.S. President Ford, was sent to the Long Beach treatment
program to get sober, and U.S. President Jimmy Carter's brother Billy Carter was
also sent there because of its outstanding record in getting alcoholics sober.

Then Nancy goes on in Chapter 17 to describe the hearings before the U.S.
Senate subcommittee on alcoholism and drug abuse in the U.S. military in 1970.
Also more on Joe Zuska and the Navy alcoholism treatment program which he
developed at Long Beach.

0 -1 0 0
8259 crog1@aol.com crog1@a... Re: Help with AA research papers? Help with AA research papers? 3/8/2012 11:09:00 AM

From a research standpoint you may have tried this one:

==========================================

(1) National Library of Medicine - National Institutes of Health
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/

If not, they have a very good online help and could help refer you to even more
stuff that would be at least AA related.

==========================================

(2) Nat't Inst of Mental Health would be another possible resource:

NIMH · Home http://www.nimh.nih.gov/index.shtml

==========================================

(3) Another: Home | National Institute on Drug Abuse
http://www.drugabuse.gov/

==========================================

(4) And finally:
National Inst on Alcohol Abuse & Alcoholism
NIAAA Home
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/Pages/default.aspx

These last two appear will be merged into a National Institute on Substance
abuse et al in the near future.

Again, these you may have been in contact with. If not they certainly
might lend themselves to helping you with your AA research paper. Of course
there is always AA New York's HQ.

Good luck....



******************************************

From Glenn C. and murtaughjbarry, also see:

(5) POINTS: THE BLOG OF THE ALCOHOL AND DRUGS HISTORY SOCIETY

From Glenn C. glennccc@sbcglobal.net

http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/

******************************************

(6) ALCOHOL AND DRUGS HISTORY SOCIETY

In a message dated 3/7/2012 8:36:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
murtaughjbarry1@gmail.com writes: I subscribe to updates from:

http://alcoholanddrugshistorysociety.wordpress.com/

******************************************

0 -1 0 0
8260 Roger Roger Thoughts on Bill Swegan #2 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #2 3/8/2012 6:49:00 AM

The timing of Bill Swegan's assignment as Chaplain's Assistant also fit into a
small window of Air Force history that probably could not have happened any
other time or place. In 1947, Harry Truman signed the National Security Act
separating the Army and Air Forces. At first, Army chaplains and assistants
continued to serve the new Service and both opposed a separate chaplaincy. As
the Air Force matured, in August 1948, the first USAF Chief of Chaplains,
Charles Carpenter convinced General Spaatz who ordered the institution of a
separate AF chaplaincy on May 10, 1949.

Chaplain Carpenter also believed service members assigned as chaplain assistants
were seen as basically clerk-typists and pushed for a defined career field for
them. He persuaded AF leaders to establish a specific Service Specialty Number
(SSN) for chaplain assistants. It was because of his efforts, in March 1949,
Headquarters USAF directed that those enlisted men that were Personal Affairs
Consultants and Chaplain Assistants be screened and, if qualified, reclassified
as Welfare Specialist (SSN 534).

(Source: History of the United States Air Force Chaplain Assistant by James R
Patten, CMSgt, USAF (Retired))

This piece of Air Force history intersects coincidentally with Bill Swegan and
Mary Mann. The Air Force was developing their new identity as its own service
and working to define the roles and responsibilities of, among other
specialties, the Chaplain's Assistant. This provided the perfect timing to allow
Marty Mann to use her connections to get Bill Swegan assigned full time to the
Chaplain's Assistant position in 1948-49. The local command at Mitchel AFB were
probably open to this experiment based on several factors: Marty's persuasion,
Bill's enthusiasm for AA and his working with others, and the hopes of helping
known cases of alcoholism.

However a key factor that must be considered is that the role of the Chaplain's
Assistant in the new Air Force was loosely defined and the opportunity to assign
one enlisted man to the position was a low risk. At worst, he could be no value
added to the position and make no positive impact on alcoholism on the base. At
best, he could achieve results and assist the Chaplain in administrative,
religious, and moral programs. The latter seems to be closer to what happened.
He obviously served his Chaplain well because he later bent the rules and
convinced the command to award him a grant from a Morale, Welfare, and
Recreation account for expenses to attend the Yale Summer program on alcohol
studies.

The timing here of the Air Force chaplain's assistant history and Bill Swegan's
career are "an almost too happy historical coincidence." Good thing that Bill
Swegan sobered up at the time and place that he did. But then, isn't that true
of all of us.

0 -1 0 0
8261 Charlie C Charlie C AA research help AA research help 3/9/2012 6:33:00 AM

As a librarian let me get a plug in for my profession and suggest that for
research help the fellow in Finland go to a library :-) Most libraries are open
to the public, and librarians tend to be oriented towards helping people.

Charlie Cowling
Clarkson, New York
 

"Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at a distance but to do what
lies clearly at hand." Thomas Carlyle

0 -1 0 0
8262 Roger Roger Thoughts on Bill Swegan #3 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #3 3/10/2012 9:49:00 PM

I have not yet acquired a copy of the 1956 American Journal of Psychiatry
article to learn more about what Dr. West wrote about the Lackland pilot program
(if you have it, please email). However, I have some theories worthy of further
exploration in the context of military history. While I cannot dispute any
claims of success the program had I cannot find any indication that the Lackland
treatment program was more than a pilot program that did not continue. My
theory is that even if the program had convinced defense budget decision makers
that it had value, other national strategic interests took priority.

According to United States budget records, due to the spike in defense spending
during World War II, defense spending rose to 42% of GDP in 1945. Following the
war, it decreased rapidly to a low of 7.33% of GDP in 1948, then doubling to 15%
at the height of the Korean War in 1953. According to a RAND study the U.S. Air
Force purchased more aircraft in the five year time block from 1952-56 than it
has from 1957 to the present day.

So my theory, based on personal experience with the Defense Department for over
23 years and the research above, is that USAF spending priorities required a
focus on aircraft procurement and operations in Korea. Alcoholism treatment was
not the priority for resources. It has been my experience that the Defense
Department has been a follower of the larger society when it comes to treating
alcoholism or addiction. Military residential treatment followed private sector
hospital models, and likewise have been predominantly transformed to inpatient
programs in most areas. One constant based on my observation and those I have
worked with in Europe, Hawaii, and the Continental United States – the patient's
likelihood of success seems directly proportional to the availability of a
strong AA group at or near their base following discharge.

0 -1 0 0
8263 Bill Lash Bill Lash RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/11/2012 9:26:00 AM

Roy,
Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title
page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by
yourself)...

Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:
1) Words - 3,021
2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931
3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938
4) Paragraphs - 56

The Doctor's Opinion:
1) 2,143
2) 10,313
3) 12,438
4) 53

Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):
1) 46,189
2) 209,361
3) 255,359
4) 759


Just Love,
Barefoot Bill




-----Original Message-----
From: notify@yahoogroups.com [mailto:notify@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
royslev
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM
To: Bill L.
Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages

Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word
count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?

I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a
new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but
e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words there are
in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title
page and table of contents until Vision For You?

If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know what the
results are?

Regards
Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78
royslev@verizon.net (home email)

0 -1 0 0
8264 jax760 jax760 Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/12/2012 1:59:00 PM

Would anyone happen to have access to or a copy of this essay by Alexis Carrel?
I believe it was published in the Readers Digest circa 1938/39

Thanks

John B

MY E-MAIL: jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

0 -1 0 0
8265 James Bliss James Bliss RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 7:01:00 AM

For the top words over 1000:
THE 1705
TO 1580
OF 1313
WE 1129
A 1094
AND 1046


GOD 120


ALCOHOHOLICS 1
ALCOHOL 42
ALCOHOLIC 176
ALCOHOLIC* 1
ALCOHOLICS 96
ALCOHOLIC'S 3
ALCOHOLICS' 1
ALCOHOLISM 52


This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,
period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several
different iterations.

I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages
and Doctors Opinion for these counts.

Jim

On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:
>
> Roy,
> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title
> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by
> yourself)...
>
> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:
> 1) Words - 3,021
> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931
> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938
> 4) Paragraphs - 56
>
> The Doctor's Opinion:
> 1) 2,143
> 2) 10,313
> 3) 12,438
> 4) 53
>
> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):
> 1) 46,189
> 2) 209,361
> 3) 255,359
> 4) 759
>
> Just Love,
> Barefoot Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: notify@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:notify@yahoogroups.com ] On
> Behalf Of
> royslev
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM
> To: Bill L.
> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages
>
> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word
> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?
>
> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a
> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but
> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words
> there are
> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title
> page and table of contents until Vision For You?
>
> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know
> what the
> results are?
>
> Regards
> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78
> royslev@verizon.net (home email)

0 -1 0 0
8266 Kimball ROWE Kimball ROWE RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 6:43:00 PM

I’ll eventually get a handle on this “cut and paste” thing down. Seems
like a lot of God talk in Bill’s Story, We Agnostics, How it Works and Into
Action.

Word/Phrase Total Preface Foreword 1 Foreword 2 Foreword 3 Foreword 4
Doctors Opinion Bill's Story There is a Solution More About Alcoholism We
Agnostics How it Works Into Action Working with Others To Wives The Family
Afterward To Employers A Vision for You
God 114 2 11 5 22 22 18 8 8 8 10
All Powerful Creator 1 1
All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence 1 1
Bridge of Reason 1 1
Broad Highway 1 1
Christ 1 1
Creation 1 1
Creative Intelligence 2 1 1
Creator 10 1 2 1 1 5
Czar of the Heavens 1 1
Director 1 1
Employer 1 1
Father 1 1
Father of Light 1 1
Fellowship of the Spirit 1 1
God as we understood Him 3 3
God of Reason 1 1
Great Fact 1 1
Great Reality 2 1 1
He 15 3 1 3 7 1
Higher Power 1 1
Him 21 4 4 8 2 3
His 9 3 5 1
Maker 1 1
New Land 1 1
Newfound Friend 1 1
One who has all power 1 1
our Maker, as we understood Him 1 1
Power 4 4
Power greater than **self 14 2 10 1 1
Presence and Power of God 1 1
Presence of God 2 2
Presence of Infinite Power and Love 1 1
Principal 1 1
Realm of Spirit 1 1
Reason 2 2
Road of Happy Destiny 1 1
Spirit 1 1
Spirit of Nature 1 1
Spirit of the Universe 4 1 2 1
Supreme Being 2 2
Thee 2 1 1
Thou 1 1
Thy 4 2 2
Thy Love 1 1
Thy Power 1 1
Thy Way 1 1
Universal Mind 1 1
Total 242 0 0 2 0 0 0 32 8 1 63 60 32 9 8 8 0 19


From: roweke@msn.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:23 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages

God gets a bigger billing if you consider variants:

Higher Power 1
Him 21
His 9
Maker 1
New Land 1
Newfound Friend 1
One who has all power 1
our Maker, as we understood Him 1
Power 4
Power greater than **self 14
Presence and Power of God 1
Presence of God 2
Presence of Infinite Power and Love 1
Principal 1
Realm of Spirit 1
Reason 2
Road of Happy Destiny 1
Spirit 1
Spirit of Nature 1
Spirit of the Universe 4
Supreme Being 2
Thee 2
Thou 1
Thy 4
Thy Love 1
Thy Power 1
Thy Way 1
Universal Mind 1
Total 242


Note: words like Power, or Reason when in the middle of a sentence and upper
case do not refer to power or reason.

From: James Bliss
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages


For the top words over 1000:
THE 1705
TO 1580
OF 1313
WE 1129
A 1094
AND 1046

GOD 120

ALCOHOHOLICS 1
ALCOHOL 42
ALCOHOLIC 176
ALCOHOLIC* 1
ALCOHOLICS 96
ALCOHOLIC'S 3
ALCOHOLICS' 1
ALCOHOLISM 52

This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,
period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several
different iterations.

I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages
and Doctors Opinion for these counts.

Jim

On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:
>
> Roy,
> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title
> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by
> yourself)...
>
> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:
> 1) Words - 3,021
> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931
> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938
> 4) Paragraphs - 56
>
> The Doctor's Opinion:
> 1) 2,143
> 2) 10,313
> 3) 12,438
> 4) 53
>
> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):
> 1) 46,189
> 2) 209,361
> 3) 255,359
> 4) 759
>
> Just Love,
> Barefoot Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On
> Behalf Of
> royslev
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM
> To: Bill L.
> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages
>
> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word
> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?
>
> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a
> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but
> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words
> there are
> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title
> page and table of contents until Vision For You?
>
> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know
> what the
> results are?
>
> Regards
> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78
> mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
8267 Kimball ROWE Kimball ROWE RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 6:30:00 PM

oops, forgot to include the total line for ALCOHOLISM:

Alcoholism Alcoholism 56
Alcoholism Afflicted 4
Alcoholism Allergy 3
Alcoholism Craves 1
Alcoholism Craving 8
Alcoholism Disease 1
Alcoholism Ill 11
Alcoholism Illness 12
Alcoholism Insane 7
Alcoholism Insanity 8
Alcoholism Malady 5
Alcoholism Obsession 3
Alcoholism Sick 27
Alcoholism Suffer 10
Alcoholism Suffering 10
Alcoholism Total 166



From: roweke@msn.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:28 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages

Variations of ALCOHOLISM (Preface to 164):

Alcoholism Alcoholism 56
Alcoholism Afflicted 4
Alcoholism Allergy 3
Alcoholism Craves 1
Alcoholism Craving 8
Alcoholism Disease 1
Alcoholism Ill 11
Alcoholism Illness 12
Alcoholism Insane 7
Alcoholism Insanity 8
Alcoholism Malady 5
Alcoholism Obsession 3
Alcoholism Sick 27
Alcoholism Suffer 10
Alcoholism Suffering 10



From: James Bliss
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages


For the top words over 1000:
THE 1705
TO 1580
OF 1313
WE 1129
A 1094
AND 1046

GOD 120

ALCOHOHOLICS 1
ALCOHOL 42
ALCOHOLIC 176
ALCOHOLIC* 1
ALCOHOLICS 96
ALCOHOLIC'S 3
ALCOHOLICS' 1
ALCOHOLISM 52

This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,
period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several
different iterations.

I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages
and Doctors Opinion for these counts.

Jim

On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:
>
> Roy,
> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title
> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by
> yourself)...
>
> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:
> 1) Words - 3,021
> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931
> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938
> 4) Paragraphs - 56
>
> The Doctor's Opinion:
> 1) 2,143
> 2) 10,313
> 3) 12,438
> 4) 53
>
> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):
> 1) 46,189
> 2) 209,361
> 3) 255,359
> 4) 759
>
> Just Love,
> Barefoot Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On
> Behalf Of
> royslev
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM
> To: Bill L.
> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages
>
> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word
> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?
>
> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a
> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but
> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words
> there are
> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title
> page and table of contents until Vision For You?
>
> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know
> what the
> results are?
>
> Regards
> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78
> mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
8268 Stephen Gentile Stephen Gentile RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 4:09:00 PM

Time to reprogram.

I find the word God 138 times in the fourth edition
133 times in the second

This is through the simple search button in my .PDF viewer.

Steve G
NJ

0 -1 0 0
8269 Kimball ROWE Kimball ROWE RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 6:28:00 PM

Variations of ALCOHOLISM (Preface to 164):

Alcoholism Alcoholism 56
Alcoholism Afflicted 4
Alcoholism Allergy 3
Alcoholism Craves 1
Alcoholism Craving 8
Alcoholism Disease 1
Alcoholism Ill 11
Alcoholism Illness 12
Alcoholism Insane 7
Alcoholism Insanity 8
Alcoholism Malady 5
Alcoholism Obsession 3
Alcoholism Sick 27
Alcoholism Suffer 10
Alcoholism Suffering 10



From: James Bliss
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages


For the top words over 1000:
THE 1705
TO 1580
OF 1313
WE 1129
A 1094
AND 1046

GOD 120

ALCOHOHOLICS 1
ALCOHOL 42
ALCOHOLIC 176
ALCOHOLIC* 1
ALCOHOLICS 96
ALCOHOLIC'S 3
ALCOHOLICS' 1
ALCOHOLISM 52

This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,
period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several
different iterations.

I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages
and Doctors Opinion for these counts.

Jim

On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:
>
> Roy,
> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title
> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by
> yourself)...
>
> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:
> 1) Words - 3,021
> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931
> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938
> 4) Paragraphs - 56
>
> The Doctor's Opinion:
> 1) 2,143
> 2) 10,313
> 3) 12,438
> 4) 53
>
> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):
> 1) 46,189
> 2) 209,361
> 3) 255,359
> 4) 759
>
> Just Love,
> Barefoot Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On
> Behalf Of
> royslev
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM
> To: Bill L.
> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages
>
> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word
> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?
>
> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a
> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but
> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words
> there are
> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title
> page and table of contents until Vision For You?
>
> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know
> what the
> results are?
>
> Regards
> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78
> mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
8270 Kimball ROWE Kimball ROWE RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 6:23:00 PM

God gets a bigger billing if you consider variants:

Higher Power 1
Him 21
His 9
Maker 1
New Land 1
Newfound Friend 1
One who has all power 1
our Maker, as we understood Him 1
Power 4
Power greater than **self 14
Presence and Power of God 1
Presence of God 2
Presence of Infinite Power and Love 1
Principal 1
Realm of Spirit 1
Reason 2
Road of Happy Destiny 1
Spirit 1
Spirit of Nature 1
Spirit of the Universe 4
Supreme Being 2
Thee 2
Thou 1
Thy 4
Thy Love 1
Thy Power 1
Thy Way 1
Universal Mind 1
Total 242


Note: words like Power, or Reason when in the middle of a sentence and upper
case do not refer to power or reason.

From: James Bliss
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:01 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages


For the top words over 1000:
THE 1705
TO 1580
OF 1313
WE 1129
A 1094
AND 1046

GOD 120

ALCOHOHOLICS 1
ALCOHOL 42
ALCOHOLIC 176
ALCOHOLIC* 1
ALCOHOLICS 96
ALCOHOLIC'S 3
ALCOHOLICS' 1
ALCOHOLISM 52

This is far from perfect. It was based on 'words (between spaces,
period, commas, etc). As you can see from Alcohol* there are several
different iterations.

I wrote a quick and dirty program which ran through the first 164 pages
and Doctors Opinion for these counts.

Jim

On 3/11/2012 8:26 AM, Bill Lash wrote:
>
> Roy,
> Good morning. Here is the results I found (this does not include the title
> page nor the table of contents, which you could probably do easily by
> yourself)...
>
> Preface & Forewords 1 - 4:
> 1) Words - 3,021
> 2) Characters (no spaces) - 14,931
> 3) Characters (with spaces) - 17,938
> 4) Paragraphs - 56
>
> The Doctor's Opinion:
> 1) 2,143
> 2) 10,313
> 3) 12,438
> 4) 53
>
> Pages 1 - 164 (includes footnotes):
> 1) 46,189
> 2) 209,361
> 3) 255,359
> 4) 759
>
> Just Love,
> Barefoot Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:notify%40yahoogroups.com ] On
> Behalf Of
> royslev
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:23 PM
> To: Bill L.
> Subject: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages
>
> Has anyone, for instance a publisher or Big Book scholar, ever done a word
> count on the first 164 pages of the Big Book?
>
> I know there has been a few minor changes over the years, and everytime a
> new edition comes out there will be a new forward; I know all of that, but
> e.g as the 4th edition now stands, does anyone know how many words
> there are
> in a count starting from the Preface to Vision For You? Or maybe the title
> page and table of contents until Vision For You?
>
> If someone knows this tidbit of arcane trivia would you let me know
> what the
> results are?
>
> Regards
> Roy L. aka "a miracle of mental health" class of `78
> mailto:royslev%40verizon.net (home email)






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

0 -1 0 0
8271 B B hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/15/2012 12:16:00 PM

A question was raised by a friend of mine recently and really made me pause for
thought... Were there one hundred or thousand(s)? My question comes from
passages located in the Big Book itself.

One Hundred?

It was now time, the struggling groups thought, to place their message and
unique experience before the world. This determination bore fruit in the spring
of 1939 by the publication of this vo...lume. The membership had then reached
about 100 men and women. –Forward to the 2nd Edition

"Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred
of them had followed successfully. BB p.42, More About Alcoholism

This man and over one hundred others appear to have recovered. BB xxv(xxiii),
The Doctor's Opinion

We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have
recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. BB xiii, Foreword to
First Edition

Or One Thousand?

In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our
families. BB p.15, Bill's Story

We of Alcoholics Anonymous, know thousands of men and women who were once just
as hopeless as Bill. Nearly all have recovered. They have solved the drink
problem. BB p.17, There is a Solution

All of these passages come from the book as it appeared at the beginning, so
changes in membership numbers should not be reflected, unless there is an
historical twist I am not aware of. I know in the end there is some talk about
"one hundred" being an approximation, but I am somewhat confused by the
appearance of hundred and thousand. Any thoughts?

0 -1 0 0
8272 Dolores Dolores Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 3/15/2012 1:06:00 PM

Hi Roger, do you have any information on the Treatments faccilites in Bad
Cannstatt and the others in West Germany?. They were started aaround 1974. I
know that Marty Mann was involved with these Treatment facilities. I would like
to add this to the CER history. Thanks Dolores

0 -1 0 0
8273 Roger Roger Senate Testimony on Alcoholism in Military 1970 Senate Testimony on Alcoholism in Military 1970 3/15/2012 8:29:00 AM

Many of us know of Jim B. and the gold braid on his Navy Captain uniform from
Nancy Olson's book and the excerpt on hindsfoot.org. I found a quote in the
Senate transcript equally interesting. Jim S. also an AA member testifying
before the sub-committee was in the Army 20 years and worked with nuclear
weapons at the peak of his drinking days. He had a classic response to Senator
Hughes when answering the question below.

SENTATOR HUGHES: Would you say the nuclear warhead could be in the hands of
alcoholics on occasion?

JIM S.: The nuclear warhead was definitely in the hands of one alcoholic sir. I
can speak for one.

Does anyone know more of Jim S.? Is he still with us by any chance? The other
two AA members who testified, Hal M. and Jim B. are mentioned in earlier posts
but I can't find anything on Jim S.
Thank you all for your service!
Roger W.

0 -1 0 0
8274 bill@athenararebooks.com bill@a... Info on Bill W Documentary (including Trailer link) Info on Bill W Documentary (including Trailer link) 3/14/2012 11:30:00 AM

We now have some details on Bill W., the new documentary on the life of
Bill Wilson produced by Page 124 Productions.

It will be shown at the Cleveland International Film Festival (CIFF) in
late March at the following times and location:

Monday March 26, 7:15 PM (Plaza Cinemas at Chapel Hill, Cuyahoga Falls
-- an Akron showing / not in Cleveland)

Tuesday March 27, 4:10 PM (Tower City Cinemas in Cleveland, with a
panel discussion after the screening)

Wednesday March 28, 11:15 AM (Tower City Cinemas in Cleveland)

If you can make any of these showings, details about buying tickets are
available on the CIFF website:
http://www.clevelandfilm.org/festival/films?search_text=bill+w
http://www.clevelandfilm.org/festival/films?search_text=bill+w>

The creative team has not yet announced any definite plans for the
distribution of this film, but the DVD will be available June 10th. You
can let them know that you want a copy when it's available if you go
to www.page124.com/dvd/ http://www.page124.com/dvd/>

More information about the documentary (along with a look at the
TRAILER) can also be found at www.billw.com http://www.billw.com/> .

0 -1 0 0
8275 gary gary March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs 3/14/2012 1:22:00 PM

We will celebrate the 10 year anniversary for this group on March 30, 2012 -
cake & candles anyone?

Thank you to all who have kept this group going, and contributed to the success
for the past ten years - I know this is one of the first things I check each
morning - have used the information found here to visit many of our AA history
sites across Canada and the US of A.

- - - -

TWELFTH ANNIVERSARY -- MARCH 16, 2000 - MARCH 16, 2012

From the present moderator: as a technicality -- and Lord knows how much all of
us in this web group love, and live and breathe for, teensy and obscure
technical quibbles !!! -- the anniversary of the group will be in March, but
tomorrow -- on March 16 -- and it will be the 12th anniversary.

The group was originally started by Nancy Olson under the name "AAHistoryBuffs":

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryBuffs/
March 16, 2000 is the founding date given in the left-hand column of the home
page. The first still-surviving messages were put on the Message Board on March
21, 2000. (Nancy went through both the AAHB and the AAHL on occasion, deleting
messages that were on trivial topics, or simply repeated earlier messages, or
were later shown to have gotten their information badly wrong.)

But in Spring 2002, Nancy Olson changed her e-mail to another provider, and then
discovered to her horror (a) that the Yahoo group system would not recognize her
new e-mail address, and (b) that her old e-mail provider would not give her that
old address back. So no one could any longer gain access to the management
section of the Buffs, and keep the group operating properly.

So she started the AAHistoryLovers, and then she -- along with Fiona Dodd, of
County Mayo in Ireland, who has done an extraordinary amount of work on the
AAHistoryLovers over the years -- selected the most important Buffs messages,
and copied and pasted them into Lovers messages.

I have just finished using a program called PG Offline to download ALL of the
first ten years of AAHistoryLovers messages, from 2002 to 2011. They download in
tabular form as Microsoft Access data files.

I then used merge to transfer this tabular data to continuous MS Word files --
producing ten MS Word documents, one per year, each one around a thousand or so
pages long.

Unfortunately, the messages are full of the kind of web page coding used for
HTML files and other similar online documents, to such a point that many
sections are nearly totally unreadable. Codes like:



FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial">



Here are a couple of examples of what a lot of the MS Word version looks like
when it is first converted from MS Access:

============================================
++++Message 753+ Jean W. -- 40 years
From: pennington2 1/2/2003 4:21:00 PM



Jean Mullry of Bellevue, Nebraska died yesterday (01/01/3)
at
5:30am. It was also her 40th A.A. Birthday --- her pigeon Peg
M.
had given her her chip the evening before. There will be
a
memorial service, yet to be announced (she donated her body
to
science --- in service even in death). Her children and
other
family members were with her when she
passed.

This year is the 60th anniversary of AA in Area 41 and
Jean was
interviewed for that occasion since she was one of the
first
woman members in the Omaha-Bellevue area. She was
for
several early years, secretary on the Central Office
committee.

She always signed her notes at the end with the
words: "And
peace and harmony
prevailed."


p2
>
pennington2@yahoo.com


============================================
++++Message 756+ Request - Local A.A. History
From: Jim 1/6/2003 2:35:00 AM

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th.net%2FEmail_Translation.html&lp=en_es&tt=url
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silkworth%2Enet%2FEmail%5FTranslation%2Ehtml&Sequence=core
"> color="#0000ff">Norwegian color="#000000">- http://translation.paralink.com/url_mode/urlbot.asp?direction=131073&t\
emplate=Default&autotranslate=true&url=http://silkworth.net/Email_Transl\
ation.html
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;wl_documenttype=dt1&wl_fl=2&wl_rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_\
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_table=-3
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;wl_documenttype=dt1&wl_fl=2&wl_rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_\
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_table=-3
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o=rom&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\
Romanian color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\
o=sel&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\
Serbian color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\
o=slo&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\
Slovenian color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\
o=swe&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\
Swedish color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\
o=wel&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\
Welsh color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\
o=tur&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\
Turkish color="#000000">- http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/Translate/index.shtml?from=eng&t\
o=ltt&type=url&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsilkworth.net%2FEmail_Translation.html
">\
Latin


color="#000000">
color="#0033cc">In an attempt to carry the message and
preserve general localized AA histories, we have begun an ongoing project
titled, "Growth of A.A." around the world — to bring all the worlds localized AA
histories to one central location on the World Wide Web.

What a wonderful
experience it would be to be able to read about the history of any Group's,
Counties, State's, Provences, Territory's, Republic's, and Countries localized
A.A. history from a single location.

We would very much like to add your
local AA history to the Global Map on Silkworth.net.

We invite your
participation.

The Global Map:
http://silkworth.net/image_map/world.html" target="_blank"> color="#0033cc"> color="#0033cc">http://silkworth.net/image_map/world.html


Yours in service,
The Silkworth Team,
http://silkworth.net/sitemap.html" target="_blank"> color="#0033cc">http://silkworth.net/sitemap.html

color="#000000">* Please foreward this email to any possible interested parties
/ individules knowledgable of local A.A. history.

* This is a Global
email from
Silkworth.net.




< \
/tr>


Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com"
target="_blank">http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on
the Web!

============================================

So I am having to go through the messages now, using search and replace to
either delete these codes or replace them with MS Word commands. It'll take a
while, but after it's been done, anybody who wants to will be able to have a
copy on a CD disk of all of the old AAHistoryLovers in the form of easily
readable MS Word documents.

Yours in the fellowship,
Glenn Chesnut

0 -1 0 0
8276 Michael Margetis Michael Margetis Traditions Question Traditions Question 3/16/2012 5:16:00 PM

Hi all,

Why was the "short form" of the Traditions written? Was the
"short form" intended to replace the long form? Or simply
provide an alternate, briefer version?

At the 1950 Conference I understand that Bill paraphrased the
traditions, so neither the short or long form was actually presented.
Was Bill's paraphrasing simply a supplement to written material? Was
the vote to accept Bill's paraphrasing or a handout that had either
(or both?) the long and short form?

As if I haven't asked enough questions, in a previous post on
traditions it stated that the 1958 General Service Conference approved
removing the word "honest" from the term "honest desire to stop
drinking" in the AA Preamble. I was under the impression that the
Grapevine copyrighted the preamble. Does the conference approve or
disapprove Grapevine material? (I actually know they do not, but
that's what confuses me . . . .) Is it that they did in 1958 but at
some time later that changed?

Thanks,

Mike Margetis
Brunswick, Maryland

0 -1 0 0
8277 martinnfisher martinnfisher Chet R -- It Might Have Been Worse -- not WW II but WW I vet Chet R -- It Might Have Been Worse -- not WW II but WW I vet 3/20/2012 5:03:00 AM

To those who compile the biographies of the authors of the Personal Stories in
the Big Book:

There is an error in the biography of Chet R., author of "It Might Have Been
Worse" (Part II, story (9) in the 4th Edition, p.348).

It is presumed by the biographers that Chet's reference to "wartime service"
refers to World War II. In fact, in the original story (2nd Edition, p.373) he
says "Then there was World War I to interrupt my plans". This has been edited
by AA in 4th Edition to "Then there was wartime service to interrupt my plans",
obscuring the reference.

I thought someone should know so the biography can be amended.

Martin

- - - -

From G.C. the moderator: the only biography of Chet R. which I could find in a
Google search was this one, which does in fact incorrectly surmise that Chet was
a Second World War veteran instead of a First World War veteran:

http://silkworth.net/aabiography/chetrude.html

"Wartime service in the Army (presumably World War II) interrupted his plans for
success. After the war he continued his education, married and had a family, and
got started in business."

0 -1 0 0
8278 edgarc@aol.com edgarc@a... Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/4/2012 7:02:00 AM

commenrts on Message #8249 from Les Cole, jax760, and Glenn Chesnut

Edgar

====================
LES COLE wrote: "March 3, 2012 Hello Edgar: I am very intrigued by your post.
When I was writing my new book about Rogers Burnham (see www.LesCole-AA.com) I
searched for information about Mark and after difficulty found a copy of "Rural
Free Delivery" at the University of Vermont Library. They sent it to me as a
loan and I found his poem "Lem's plan" very interesting concerning the Vermont
culture. I do not recall reading what you quote below. Can you tell us where you
got your book, and if it can become available somewhere?"
====================

EDGAR's comment: A copy of Rural Free Delivery was given me by Ron F, a
frequenter of this site, and a long-time AA whose program I greatly admire.
As to availability, you might check EBay or Amazon regularly for used copies.
Other than that, I have no idea where it might be available, but you can see a
complete online ebook at
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=123&seq=5&view=image&size=100&id=uc1.\
b248591


====================
LES COLE wrote: I can't believe he would be, or write about, being a murderer!
====================

EDGAR's comment: How many times have you read "He was a nice boy, happy and
respectful! I can't believe he shot 27 people from the bell tower of the
Episcopal church"?

The full quote from page 123 of my copy, (second printing, first edition,
Stephen Daye Press, 1942, Brattleboro, NY no ISBN) is:

"I were always a tender hearted critter, I never could see no dumb creature or
woman suffer on no account. I ups with the squirrel rifle and shoots Jeanne --
puts her out of her misery! Now she sleeps beneath the sour apple tree in my
family buryin' ground right long side of my four regular wives and some mail
order ones."

====================
JAX760 wrote: "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle
name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is
buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House.
====================

====================
WIKIPEDIA article says: Mark A Whalon (1886–1956) was an Irish-American
author. Whalon was close friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics
Anonymous, and said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life.
====================

====================
FROM G.C. THE MODERATOR: ????? Was there more than one author named Mark Whalon
????? One of them an "Irish-American author" and the other one -- a totally
different person -- a New Englander who was the local rural mail man in Vermont
and was a friend of Bill Wilson, Roger Burnham, and the young Les Cole?

Facebook for example lists seven Glenn Chesnut's in the United States, one of
them an architect in California, another one a chiropractor in Montgomery,
Alabama, etc. And there's yet another Glenn F. Chesnut who -- according to
Google -- died on March 1, 1976, and I know for a fact that this man's body is
supposed to lie buried in the cemetery in Barbourville, Kentucky.

Of course, this was in the daylight. After the sun sets, strange things have
been known to happen in cemeteries way back in those hills .... [in the
background, eerie music followed by a sinister and foreboding laugh]. Does this
perhaps mean that the moderator of the AAHistoryLovers is actually a zombie,
lumbering along and trying to catch you, in order to eat your brains?
====================

EDGAR's comment: How is he identified on his headstone? Mark A or John Mark
??????????????????

0 -1 0 0
8279 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/22/2012 2:05:00 PM

You can see Mark Whalon's complete book online at

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?u=1&num=123&seq=5&view=image&size=100&id=uc1.\
b248591


Anyone with a computer can read the book there, one page at a time, and download
and save each page as a PDF file.

Or (if you are connected with one of the partner universities and have the right
pass code) you can unload the entire book as a single PDF file and save that
single large file on your computer's hard drive.

The story we are talking about is from one of the book's chapters, entitled
"Hankerin' Pinein' an' Romance!" and is a story about a young woman artist who
asked the rural mail man to pose for her while she painted his picture, and in
the process fell helplessly in love with him. I have copied out the complete
text here from pages 122 to 123 of Mark Whalon's book:

===============================================
[page 122] women still lingered on. When she was puttin' on the finishing
touches I'd stroll over and pat her on the head and mebby my whiskers did kinda
brush her hair etc. I excused all this to myself by tellin' myself that I did it
to draw out of her the best that was in her in Art.

I noticed she kept, what she called "doing me over" and I noticed every time she
"did me over" she made me handsomer -- and I kept on with my durned fol-de-rol a
talkin' to her. She put back lots of hair on my head and she put a young eager
lusty look in my eye that really wa'n't thar at all. Why, she even combed my
whiskers and took out that yellow streak down the middle of 'em.

Wal, anyhow the picture got finished one day and I said to Jeanne, "What you
going to name it?" She kinda sniffled and bawled and laughed all at once and
said "I'll call it 'Vermont Don Keotee'." I never did now what she meant by that
name but I'm of the opinion it means somethin' Romantic.

I'd like to stop right here and have you think everything ended right there but
it didn't. Thar's a mighty touchin' sequel I've got to hitch on.

You see Jeanne couldn't get rid of that fancy she'd took to me when she finished
the picture. It growed on her! She haunted me! Pebbles rattled [page 123] on my
roof at night and lonely howls riz out of the cedar swamp. When I driv along my
mail route I see her a gazin' out of the bushes at me with eyes like a dyin'
calf. It got to be terible for both of us.

I got desperate: -- wanted to get away from it all. I got Ham Hadden to run the
mail route for me and I went way back of the mountain squirrelhuntin'. I got a
lot of squirrels. The huntin' did me good. Comm' home at evening I got most to
the home clearin and thar twixt me and the house on a log at the edge of the
wood was Jeanne. I'd washed out my other pair of pants and hung them on a limb
to dry and I could see them a wringin', a twistin', and a billowin' in the
breeze. And thar was Jeanne a gazin' out acrost the field at them pants with a
sorrowful, sufferin' look on her face.

I were always a tender hearted critter. I never could see no dumb beast or woman
suffer on no account. I ups with the squirrel-rifle and shoots Jeanne -- puts
her out of her misery! Now she sleeps beneath the sour apple tree in my family
buryin' ground right 'long side of my four regular wives and some mail-order
ones.

But anyhow, she died convinced thar is Romance along a back road in Vermont.
===============================================

0 -1 0 0
8280 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/22/2012 2:24:00 PM

If that doesn't sound like humor, I do not know what does. He is showing at
least five definite murdered women and some more. I could kid about this, but
let's let him be the humorist. He seems to have an ear for dialect.

In a message dated 3/22/2012 2:14:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
edgarc@aol.com writes:

"I were always a tender hearted critter, I never could see no dumb
creature or woman suffer on no account. I ups with the squirrel rifle and
shoots Jeanne -- puts her out of her misery! Now she sleeps beneath the sour
apple tree in my family buryin' ground right long side of my four regular wives
and some mail order ones."

0 -1 0 0
8281 Gary Govier Gary Govier Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 Thoughts on Bill Swegan #1 3/7/2012 7:39:00 PM

Since there has been a lot of talk about Bill Swegan, prior to Bill Swegan's
passing, he was looking for a article or a paper he wrote and it was in the
Sears encyclopedia.

Does anyone have a lead or direction where I can find that piece?

Thanks

BIKERGARYG New Jersey

- - - -

From GLENN C. the moderator: the following is taken from Bill Swegan's book on
The Psychology of Alcoholism. I used to have a copy of that article -- I used it
when I was helping him write the book -- but it is stored somewhere in my
basement at this point, in a big stack of boxes, and would take so long to find
that it would be far quicker and easier to find a good university library that
either had back copies of the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, or would
be willing to order you a photocopy through interlibrary loan.

Anyway, here's what it says in Bill Swegan's book:

=============================================
Medical science continued to make progress in this area during the years
following. The discovery of medications which would act as better tranquillizers
was of great help to those of us who were running alcoholism treatment programs.
I co-authored an article in 1958, along with Neville Murray, M.D., a
psychiatrist in San Antonio, entitled “To Tranquillize or Not to Tranquillize.”
It appeared in the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, and received such
wide notice that excerpts from it were reprinted in the 1958 yearbook put out by
a popular American encyclopedia.*

***********************************
*ENDNOTE 18: Neville Murray, M.D., and M/Sgt William Swegan, USAF, “To
Tranquillize or Not to Tranquillize,” Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol
19, no. 3 (September 1958): 509-510. Excerpts reprinted in the 1958 yearbook of
the American Peoples Encyclopedia (a popular set of volumes distributed by Sears
Roebuck).
***********************************

I wrote the article because I had become unhappy with a small but often
highly vocal minority within Alcoholics Anonymous who totally rejected the use
of any kind of medication by alcoholics in recovery. When they discovered that a
newcomer was taking medication prescribed by a psychiatrist or physician, they
would snarl at meetings, “You might as well change your sobriety date then. You
aren’t sober until you have quit using drugs in any form at all.”

The fact was that large doses of the paraldehyde used by Dr. Bob in the
1930’s could further excite and nauseate patients in delirium. Barbiturates like
the sodium luminol which Sister Ignatia was some-times using in 1951 could leave
a patient dangerously anesthetized and tended to have unpredictable effects. By
1958, we had discovered that the intravenous administration of some of the newly
dis-covered tranquillizers like chlorpromazine, promazine, or tri-flupromazine
could often produce rapid improvement with many individuals, without the same
negative side effects. When a serious alcoholic stops drinking, the delirium
tremens which results can be extremely dangerous. Some patients go into
convulsions, the heart refuses to start beating properly afterwards, and even
with prompt medical intervention the patient may die.

Some people seem to believe that alcoholics must suffer enormously during
withdrawal to “expiate their sins” of excessive alcohol abuse, but this sort of
punitive approach to alcoholism treatment does not seem to improve a treatment
center’s success rate at all. In fact patients respond better and more
positively to the rest of the treatment program if they can, from the beginning
of abstaining from alcohol, start to feel a freedom from discomfort never before
experienced. It gives them a positive attitude, at a deep psychological level,
toward being freed from dependence on alcohol. “I do in fact feel much better
without any alcohol in my system” is an excel-lent starting point for teaching
people how to remain abstinent.
=============================================

0 -1 0 0
8282 Jonathan Lanham-Cook Jonathan Lanham-Cook Re: 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 2nd ed., 1st printing Big Book with the Spencer/Paley quote? 3/22/2012 1:25:00 PM

IN THE SECOND EDITION OF THE BIG BOOK:

The earliest printing of the second edition to have the Spencer quote is the
third printing.

The first three printings do not have the printing stated on the
reverse of the title page - this first appears ion the fourth
printing.

There are slight differences between the first three
printings - mostly in terms of the number of groups on page 16 and the
first printing has a spelling error on page xx (I think).

The third printing also has a mispelt dust jacket which has third edition on it
no second - it is the only one with this error. I have a complete set of 2nd
editions here so if you need to know any other details I'll go and have a look
for you

God bless

Jonathan :-)

0 -1 0 0
8283 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews RE: Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages Word count for Big Book's first 164 pages 3/13/2012 5:04:00 AM

From Laurie Andrews, Bill (Lambchopp), planternva, charlieparker, and Kimball
ROWE

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Radio 3, the BBC channel that plays classical music, broadcasts 30 hours of
silence a year (pauses in the music and between contributions etc). It occurred
to me: How do they know? And who on earth wanted to know!

- - - -

From: Bill lambchopp@gmail.com>
(lambchopp at gmail.com)

I am curious as to the historical significance of these word counts?

Bill L
Lambchopp

- - - -

From: "planternva2000" planternva2000@yahoo.com>
(planternva2000 at yahoo.com)

Has anyone counted the commas, colons, dashes, quotes and other punctuation
marks?

- - - -

From: "charlieparker" charlieparker@prodigy.net>
(charlieparker at prodigy.net)

Reason refers to "reason" but it is illustrating that we have deified Reason in
this case. Charlie P

- - - -

From: Kimball ROWE roweke@msn.com>
(roweke at msn.com)

Also, MS WORD has a word frequency counter add-on, it's on the review tab.

0 -1 0 0
8284 kate.frisby kate.frisby Doctor Silkworth Doctor Silkworth 3/13/2012 5:30:00 AM

In the Doctor's Opinion, (Big Book p. xxx) Dr Silkworth talks about men and
women "making the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight."

I just wondered if anyone knew of Dr Silkworth's experiences with situations of
this sort. Did he ever give any specific examples of alcoholics to whom this
happened? If he has would it be possible to get copies of these people's
stories?

Thanks

- - - -

From GLENN C. the moderator: the phrase "the supreme sacrifice" means "the
sacrifice of one's life."

In ordinary English usage, it usually refers to people who gave their lives in
battle: a soldier at war, a fireman fighting a fire, a police officer trying to
apprehend an armed criminal, etc.

Or (more specifically in Christian thought) it can refer to the Supreme
Sacrifice made by Jesus Christ in his death on the cross.

Or (in this context) could Dr. Silkworth have been referring to alcoholics who
finally decided to give up the struggle and committed SUICIDE after fruitlessly
trying over and over to stop drinking by the use of their own will power alone?
Because what Silkworth was talking about here was the phenomenon of alcoholic
craving, and the alcoholic's inability to win the battle against that craving by
the use of will power.

0 -1 0 0
8285 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Re: Mark Whalon a murderer? Mark Whalon a murderer? 3/22/2012 3:07:00 PM

In Message #8278, Edgar refers to the copy of the Mark Whalon book which he used
as:

====================================
second printing, first edition, Stephen Daye Press, 1942, Brattleboro, NY no
ISBN
====================================

That should be Brattleboro, VERMONT, not New York.

Brattleboro is the site of the Brattleboro Retreat, or, as some call
it, Asylum. I have had family there and never heard it referred to
as the latter. Two of my uncles went thru treatment there.

- - - -

And then, in the same message, JAX760 wrote: "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark
Whalon. Mark was his middle name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson
House. John Mark Whalon is buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of
the Wilson House.

But then the WIKIPEDIA article on him gives the name as "Mark A" instead of
"John Mark":

====================================
Mark A Whalon (1886 - 1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close
friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a
close influence on Wilson in his later life.
====================================

Les has several photographs of tombstones in his excellent book, but,
alas, not the Whalon one.

Is the cemetery referred to the one behind the Roman Catholic Church
in East Dorset? It is east and a bit of the Wilson House.

Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8286 corafinch corafinch Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/13/2012 9:06:00 AM

There doesn't seem to be a way of linking to it, but I think you will find most
of the essay, under the title "Prayer is Power," in the Google books scan of
this anthology: The Questing Spirit: Religion in the Literature of our Time.
There was one page missing when I checked it. Elsewhere in Google Books there is
an excerpted version under the same title.

I'm sure John doesn't need the warning, but others might want to find out a
little bit about Carrel before reading his (inspirational, I admit) writings.

0 -1 0 0
8287 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/22/2012 4:07:00 PM

Wikipedia article on Alexis Carrel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Carrel

Alexis Carrel (June 28, 1873 - November 5, 1944) was a French surgeon and
biologist who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1912 for
pioneering vascular suturing techniques. He invented the first perfusion pump
with Charles A. Lindbergh opening the way to organ transplantation. Like many
intellectuals before World War II he promoted eugenics. He was a regent for the
French Foundation for the Study of Human Problems during the Nazi occupation of
Vichy France which implemented the eugenics policies there; his association with
the Foundation led to allegations of collaborating with the Nazis.

In the 1930s, Carrel and Charles Lindbergh became close friends not only because
of the years they worked together but also because they shared personal,
political, and social views.

Due to his close proximity with Jacques Doriot's fascist Parti Populaire
Français (PPF) during the 1930s and his role in implementing eugenics policies
during Vichy France, he was accused after the Liberation of collaborationism,
but died before the trial.

In 1935, Carrel published a book titled Man, The Unknown (L'Homme, cet Inconnu),
which became a best-seller. The book discussed "the nature of society in light
of discoveries in biology, physics, and medicine". It contained his own social
prescriptions, advocating, in part, that mankind could better itself by
following the guidance of an elite group of intellectuals, and by implementing a
regime of enforced eugenics. Carrel claimed the existence of a "hereditary
biological aristocracy" and argued that "deviant" human types should be
suppressed using techniques similar to those later employed by the Nazis.

GAS CHAMBERS FOR KILLING THE SUBHUMAN:
"A euthanasia establishment, equipped with a suitable gas, would allow the
humanitarian and economic disposal of those who have killed, committed armed
robbery, kidnapped children, robbed the poor or seriously betrayed public
confidence," Carrel wrote in L'Homme, cet Inconnu. "Would the same system not be
appropriate for lunatics who have committed criminal acts?" he suggested.

PRAISE FOR ADOLF HITLER'S DEATH CAMPS:
In the 1936 preface to the German edition of his book, Alexis Carrel added a
praise to the eugenics policies of Hitler's Germany, writing that:

"The German government has taken energetic measures against the propagation of
the defective, the mentally diseased, and the criminal. The ideal solution would
be the suppression of each of these individuals as soon as he has proven himself
to be dangerous."

Carrel also wrote in his book that:

"The conditioning of petty criminals with the whip, or some more scientific
procedure, followed by a short stay in hospital, would probably suffice to
insure order. Those who have murdered, robbed while armed with automatic pistol
or machine gun, kidnapped children, despoiled the poor of their savings, misled
the public in important matters, should be humanely and economically disposed of
in small euthanasic institutions supplied with proper gasses. A similar
treatment could be advantageously applied to the insane, guilty of criminal
acts."

- - - -

See also the book "Uncommon Friends: Life with Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Harvey
Firestone, Alexis Carrel, and Charles Lindbergh" (1987), by James Newton.

A book about the close friendship between Alexis Carrel and these other three
men.

Harvey Firestone was the founder of the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company, and
the man who first brought the Oxford Group to Akron, Ohio (where Dr. Bob joined
the group in an attempt to stop drinking).

Henry Ford was the major promulgator in the United States of an insidiously
influential anti-Semitic document called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. He
sent half a million copies all over the country until a Jewish lawyer filed a
successful lawsuit and stopped him from distributing any more of them. It was a
total fake, but claimed to be an account of the Jewish plan for taking over the
whole world. Arabic translations of this foul document are still being used by
Muslim terrorist groups in the Near East, telling their followers that all the
things said in this document are "absolutely true," and the reason why good
people should be willing to sacrifice their lives to destroy the Israelis.

Charles Lindbergh remained a loyal adviser to the American government during the
Second World War, but President Roosevelt himself complained that he had never
been able to get Lindbergh to condemn a single thing which the Nazis did,
including even the Nazi gas chambers where they killed so many Jews (and
others). Lindbergh insisted that, between the British and the Germans, he
thought it was about six of the one and a half dozen of the other, and (when the
Second World War was beginning) tried to dissuade President Roosevelt from
taking sides between the British and Hitler.

0 -1 0 0
8288 Michael Gwirtz Michael Gwirtz Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/13/2012 9:11:00 AM

Prayer is not only worship; it is also an invisible emanation of man's
worshipping spirit - the most powerful form of energy that one can generate. If
you make a habit of sincere prayer, your life will be very noticeably and
profoundly enriched.

Prayer is a force as real as terrestrial gravity. As a doctor, I have seen men,
after all therapy had failed, lifted out of disease and melancholy by the serene
effort of prayer. Such occasions have been termed miracle. But a constant,
quieter miracle takes place hourly in the hearts of men and women who have
discovered that prayer supplies them with a steady flow of sustaining power in
their daily lives.

Too many people regard prayer as a formalized routine of words, a refuge for
weaklings or a childish petition for material things. Properly understood,
prayer is a mature activity indispensable to the fullest development of
personality. Only in prayer do we achieve that complete, harmonious assembly of
body, mind and spirit which gives the frail human reed its unshakeable strength.

How does prayer fortify us with so much dynamic power? To answer this question
(admittedly outside the jurisdiction of science) I must point out that all
prayers demonstrate the same truth; human beings seek to augment their finite
energy by addressing themselves to the infinite source of all energy. When we
pray, we link ourselves with the inexhaustible motive power that spins the
universe. We ask that a part of this power be apportioned to our needs. Even in
asking, our human deficiencies are filled, and we arise strengthened and
repaired.

In order really to mold personality, prayer must become a habit. One can pray
everywhere; in the street, the office, the school, in the solitude of one's own
room, in a church. There is no prescribed posture, time or place. But it is
meaningless to pray in the morning and to live like a barbarian the remainder of
the day. True prayer is a way of life; the truest life is literally a way of
prayer.

Today, lack of emphasis on the religious sense has brought the world to the edge
of destruction. Our deepest source of power and perfection has been left
miserably undeveloped. Prayer, the basic exercise of the spirit, must be
actively practiced by man and nations. For if the power of prayer is again
released and used in the lives of common men and women, there is yet hope that
our prayers for a better world will be answered.

(Prayer is Power by Alexis Carrel in Reader's Digest March 1963).

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

0 -1 0 0
8289 Charlie C Charlie C Alexis Carrel Alexis Carrel 3/13/2012 1:02:00 PM

Here is a link to a record for the book "Prayer is Power" by Alexis Carrel,
196?.

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/37266793

It is only held in two locations, but there is a Readers Digest anthology that
includes it, and that anthology is held in many libraries, and could easily be
gotten through interlibrary loan.

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/365188

Some of his books are for sale in http://abebooks.com as well.

Interesting sounding book, and author, hadn't heard of him before. Is his
writing something early AA's were known to read?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Carrel

Charlie Cowling
Clarkson, NY

0 -1 0 0
8290 Tom Hickcox Tom Hickcox Word Use Word Use 3/22/2012 6:16:00 PM

From: Bill lambchopp@gmail.com >
(lambchopp at gmail.com)

I am curious as to the historical significance of these word counts?

Bill L
Lambchopp

- - - -

These word counts give people like me who have wretched lives with
nothing better to do than to study word use in A.A. literature and
make great proclamations, trying to impress the credulous with our
great intellectual abilities.

It also provide fodder for arguments. The word "sponsor" is not used
in the Big Book. How significant is that?

The word "ego" is used a lot in current discussions in meetings, but
it is very sparingly used in the Big Book and 12 & 12, which implies
it wasn't used much in early A.A. However, Wilson used the
word/prefix "self" a whole lot. I suspect it was a cultural thing.

I have the Purple Salamander Press concordance, and I also have one
for the two books by 164 and More, which I find very useful as I can
carry it to meetings and negates the need to memorize which pages the
words are used on. At my age, any extra space in my brain is put to
use. I just wish 164 and More had included As Bill Sees It.

That's it for now. Back to pondering the use of the dash in A.A.
literature . . . .

Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8291 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available 3/23/2012 3:51:00 PM

All the messages from the AAHistoryLovers's first ten years (2002-2011) have now
been collected into one huge computer database. The Hindsfoot site will be
posting the first drafts (as they become available) of the messages as they are
edited into a more readable fashion as Microsoft Word DOCX documents.

See, on the Hindsfoot site, A.A. Historical Materials Part 2 at

http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html

which gives a link near the top of the page to the specific webpage on this
topic:

http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html

The first three years of the group's messages are now available for downloading:

AA History Lovers for 2002, Messages 1-751
http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs02.docx

AA History Lovers for 2003, Messages 753- 1574
http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs03.docx

AA History Lovers for 2004, Messages 1575-2117
http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs04.docx

Apologies -- the messages were pulled off the database using what is called
"mail merge" in the most recent version of MS Word, which saves its files with
the DOCX file extension instead of the older DOC suffix.

All the new copies of MS Word use the .docx file format. Also, in my own
experiments, these massively long files come out a good deal shorter in the
.docx format (these .docx files are essentially zipped XML documents).

IF YOU HAVE AN OLDER VERSION OF MICROSOFT WORD, how can you read these
documents? If you do a search on the internet for docx, you will find that you
have several alternatives:

(a) You can download a free compatability pack which will allow some of the
earlier versions of MS Word to download files in the the next .docx format:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/open-a-word-2007-document-in-an-earl\
ier-version-of-word-HA010044473.aspx



(b) There are sites like the following which will convert .docx to .doc files
for free:
http://www.doc.investintech.com/

(c) Last but not least it is possible to download a copy (for free) of
OpenOffice, which can read the .docx files, and can also convert them into other
file formats:

http://www.openoffice.org/

0 -1 0 0
8292 John Barton John Barton Re: Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer Alexis Carrell, The Power of Prayer 3/23/2012 10:49:00 AM

Carrel's influence on AA can be found in Bill's 1944 talk to the Yale School of
Alcohol Studies. (excerpt below) The description of AA as a "synthesis" of
medicine and religion as Bill is often quoted, came from Carrel and his work
"Man The Unknown" according to Bill.

As Cora and Glenn have pointed out some of his ideology is pretty far from the
main stream.

"Then we read a book by Dr. Carrel. From that book came an argument that is now
a part of our system. (How much we may agree with the book in general, I don't
know, but in this respect the AA's think he had something.)

Dr. Carrel wrote, in effect; the world is full of analysts. We have tons of ore
in the mines and we have all kinds of building materials above ground. Here is a
man specializing in this, there is a man specializing in that, and another one
in something else. The modern world is full of wonderful analysts and diggers,
but there are very few who deliberately synthesize, who bring together different
materials, who assemble new things. We are much too shy on synthetic thinking -
the kind of thinking that's willing to reach out now here and now there to see
if something new cannot be evolved.

On reading that book some of us realized that was just what we had been groping
toward. We had been trying to build out of our own experiences. At this point we
thought, "Let's reach into other people's experiences. Let's go back to our
friends the doctors, let's go back to our friends the preachers, the social
workers, all those who have been concerned with us, and again review what they
have got above ground and bring that into the synthesis. And let us, where we
can, bring them in where they will fit."

So our process of trial and error began and, at the end of 4 years, the material
was cast in the form of a book known as Alcoholics Anonymous. And then our
friends of the press came in and they began to say nice things about us.

That was not too hard for them to do because by that time we had gotten hold of
the idea of not fighting anything or anyone. We began to say, "Our only motive
as an organization is to help the alcoholic. And to help him we've got to reach
him. Therefore, we can't collide with his prejudices. So we aren't going to get
mixed up with controversial questions, no matter what we, as individuals, think
of them.

We can't get concerned with prohibition, or whether to drink or not to drink. We
can't get concerned with doctrine and dogma in a religious sense. We can't get
into politics, because that will arouse prejudice which might keep away
alcoholics who will go off and die when they might have recovered."

0 -1 0 0
8293 gary gary Where did Bill and Lois over look the ocean before Bill left for Over There? Where did Bill and Lois over look the ocean before Bill left for Over There? 3/14/2012 1:18:00 PM

My wife and I are going east this year from the Niagara Falls Canada area, and
will be stopping at Brown University in RH to vist the W.D. Kirk collection.

Just wondering if anyone knows the exact spot where Bill and Lois overlooked the
Atlantic Ocean before he went to war.

I would like to get a picture from this spot.

Also anything else we should look up in this area that would be of AA interest?
Gary

0 -1 0 0
8294 edgarc@aol.com edgarc@a... Fwd: Mark Whalon headstone Fwd: Mark Whalon headstone 3/23/2012 8:40:00 AM

In a later msg than the one below, which transmitted the photo of John Mark
Whalon's headstone and the church, Ron F wrote "Sorry for the lapse of mind.
It's St. Jerome's Cemetery. You can google East Dorset and see It on the
map...ronf"

____________________________________

From: ron.f
To: EdgarC@aol.com
Sent: 3/23/2012 8:19:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: mark

Edgar

Thanks for your kind words and the controversy, very fun. Here's the old church
where John Mark is buried and the tombstone. He didn't practice what he had
been preaching in one of his stories about getting a good stone before you die
... ronf ... feel free to use the pics as you wish. Will get the name of the
cemetery if you need that as escapes the mind at present ... it's Catholic for
sure.

0 -1 0 0
8295 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/16/2012 11:24:00 AM

From Norm the Tinman, kochbrian, Charlie Parker, Dudley D. Birr, buckjohnson,
with a reference also to John Barton's Names of the First One Hundred

- - - -

From: Norm The Tinman normtinman@yahoo.com>
(normtinman at yahoo.com)

I think you'll find that as each edition was re written the numbers changed --
Norm

- - - -

From: "B" kochbrian@hotmail.com>
(kochbrian at hotmail.com)

More information comes in. Here is Bill's story as it appeared in the first
printing.

"There is scarcely any form of human misadventure and misery which has not been
overcome among us. In a Western city and its environs, there are sixty of us and
our families. We often meet informally at our houses, so that newcomers may find
what they seek. Gatherings of twenty to sixty are common. We are growing in
numbers and power."

I am asking if anyone knows in which printings the verbage changed here, and in
There is a Solution, to reflect growing membership? I know from the forward to
the second edition, it talks about 2,000 members in march of 1941, and 8,000
members by the close of 1941.

Based on the following:
First Printing, April, 1939
Second Printing, March, 1941
Third Printing, June, 1942
Fourth Printing, March, 1943
Fifth Printing, January, 1944
Sixth Printing, June, 1944
Seventh Printing, January, 1945
Eighth Printing, February, 1945
Ninth Printing, January, 1946
Tenth Printing, August, 1946
Eleventh Printing, June 1947
Twelfth Printing, October, 1948
Thirteenth Printing, February, 1950
Fourteenth Printing, July, 1951
BY THE CORNWALL PRESS, INC., CORNWALL, N.Y.
PRINTED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

I would guess some changes in the 2nd and 3rd printings at the least? Thanks
all!!

- - - -

From: "Charlie Parker" charlieparker@prodigy.net>
(charlieparker at prodigy.net)

There were One Hundred originally (more or less). There have been many changes
to those numbers in various printings and editions of the Big Book over the
years to update the numbers as well as a lot of other changes.

Many of us were told for years in the discussion meetings that "there have never
been any changes to the first 164 pages of the Big Book". This is far from true.
The forward to the second edition pertaining to these changes is easily misread.

Pages 50-51 now say "thousands" and "many hundreds". In the first edition first
printing those same passages said "100."

At some point in the editions of the Preface for the 4th edition BB they changed
"has been left untouched" to say "has been left largely untouched". A pretty
significant change.

Charlie P Austin

- - - -

From: Dudley Dobinson DudleyDobinson@aol.com>
(DudleyDobinson at aol.com)

Hi, The first printing on page 25 (Now 15) says 80 members and "At these
informal
gatherings one may often see from 40 to 80 persons." On page 27 (Now 17) refers
to "One hundred men who were just as hopeless as Bill." Adjustments were made in
later printings.

Dudley D. Birr Ireland

PS The Doctor's Opinion was numbered pages 1 to 9 in the First Edition

- - - -

From: "buckjohnson41686" buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com>
(buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com)

On "the First Hundred," many AA historians believe that this was more like 40,
but with spouses may have rounded up to 100. The numbers recorded in the Big
Book were increased in later printings as more alcoholics joined AA.

- - - -

From the moderator: the figure which is sometimes cited of "40 members in April
1939" comes from the known list of those who got their stories in the Big Book,
plus about ten more whom we know a good deal about, and who we know were sober
at that time. But a list this short may well be a bit on the over-skeptical
side. Certainly, when citing this, it is well to refer people to John Barton's
list, which is well researched and needs to be taken seriously.

JOHN BARTON HAS ASSEMBLED A LIST OF 100
PEOPLE WHO HAD JOINED A.A. BY APRIL 1, 1939
Message #8061
Names of the First One Hundred
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/8061

0 -1 0 0
8296 Ben Hammond Ben Hammond Re: March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs 3/15/2012 4:18:00 PM

Happy Birthday ... God Bless all of you who provide this wonderful resource.

Old Ben in Tulsa

0 -1 0 0
8297 Sally Brown Sally Brown Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 3/16/2012 12:39:00 AM

Hi, Dolores - Dave and I hadn't heard about Marty Mann's connection with these
military treatment centers, and would love to learn whatever you find out. In
addition, even though I retired recently as a 20-year staff chaplain at the Palo
Alto VA (Veterans Affairs Health Care System), I will always have a deep
interest in anything involving health treatment of our military, be they active
or vets.

Thanks very much. Sally

Rev Sally Brown, MS, MDiv
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ
coauthor with David R Brown:
A Biography of Mrs. Marty Mann
The First Lady of Alcoholics Anonymous

- - - -

Subject: Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service

Hi Roger, do you have any information on the Treatments facilities in Bad
Cannstatt and the others in West Germany?. They were started around 1974. I know
that Marty Mann was involved with these Treatment facilities. I would like to
add this to the CER history. Thanks Dolores

0 -1 0 0
8298 Roger Roger Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 3/16/2012 5:56:00 PM

Hello Dolores - I know Continental Europe Region has a rich history and thank
you for your excellent service as archivist there. I could not find anything on
Bad Cannstatt but I do have a GV article (Jan 1974) describing a treatment
program in Wiesbaden (about 200km away). I will send you copy of the whole
article.

The article was written by an AA member Raleigh B. whom you may have information
about in the CER archives. He had 20 years at the time and volunteered at the
U.S. Air Force's Alcoholism Rehabilitation Center (ARC) in Wiesbaden, Germany.

Colonel John P. McDonough, a physician, was director of the program, which went
into operation January 24, 1973. The ARC was a twenty-eight-day, total-immersion
project.

I will keep looking and pass along to you if I find anything from Bad
Cannstatt/Stuttgart area from that time.

0 -1 0 0
8299 buckjohnson41686 buckjohnson41686 Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/17/2012 8:38:00 PM

From: buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com>
(buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com)

SEE MESSAGE 6882, Sun Sep 19, 2010: Already 80 people in the Cleveland group in
Spring 1939?

Geoff Smith noted that in Bill's story, it mentions that "in a western town
there are thousands of members," yet when the book was written there were fewer
than 100 alcoholics total. Was this added to Bill's story later? I don't think
so, as it's in my 1st edition. What is the explanation for this mismatch?

Glenn Chesnut responded:

I think Geoff is referring to the passage found on pp. 15-16 in the current
(4th) edition:

"In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our
families. We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they
seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from 50 to 200 persons. We
are growing in numbers and power."

According to my notes, the "western city" was Cleveland, and in the second
printing of the 1st edition, among the changes made:

On page 25 line 23, 80 of us was changed to 500 of us.

And on page 25 line 26, 40-80 persons was changed to 50-200 persons.

Later on, in the third printing of the 1st edition, on page 25 line 23, 500 of
us was changed to 1000 of us.

Is this the passage that you are asking about, Geoff?

There is still the question of the Big Book's original statement that in 1939
there were 80 people in the Cleveland area (even if we count families as well as
the alcoholics themselves), with 40 to 80 people attending "informal gatherings"
there. Has this group ever looked at those numbers? Are they are all possible?

0 -1 0 0
8300 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Traditions Question Traditions Question 3/18/2012 1:06:00 PM

From what used to be the west Baltimore group.

1949

As plans for the first Int'l Convention were under way, Earl T suggested to
Bill W that the Twelve Suggested Points for AA Tradition would benefit from
revision and shortening. (AACOA 213 says it occurred in 1947) Bill, with Earl's
help, set out to develop the short form of the Twelve Traditions. (AACOA 213,
GTBT 55, 77, PIO 334)

November, the short form of the Twelve Traditions was first printed in the AA
Grapevine. The entire issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for
the forthcoming Cleveland Convention.

Two wording changes were subsequently made to the initial version of the short
form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual aim" was changed to "primary
purpose" in Tradition 6, and "principles above personalities" was changed to
"principles before personalities" in Tradition 12. (LOH 96)

- - - -

In a message dated 3/18/2012 12:50:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mfmargetis@yahoo.com writes:

Why was the "short form" of the Traditions written? Was the
"short form" intended to replace the long form? Or simply
provide an alternate, briefer version?

0 -1 0 0
8301 Jonathan Lanham-Cook Jonathan Lanham-Cook Re: First AA meeting in London, England 1948 First AA meeting in London, England 1948 3/22/2012 1:54:00 PM

The Dorchester meeting was 1947 not 1948

all the best
Jonathan L-C :-)

- - - -

Message #8160 from "dorothy.banks97" ullathorne@toucansurf.com> (ullathorne at
toucansurf.com)

"First AA meeting in London, England 1948"

On 31st March the first recorded meeting was held in Room 202 of the Dorchester
Hotel, London, at the invitation of Grace O, a visiting American member who had
previously met Canadian Bob in a London Dean St restaurant.

Can anyone there at history lovers update on the happy fate of the USA members
who attended please?

Grace O.
Vernon W (an American serviceman)
Ward Williams (American)

0 -1 0 0
8302 a49585 a49585 Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 3/22/2012 2:18:00 PM

Does anyone have a copy of the third step handout used during the Joe
& Charlie Big Book workshops?

0 -1 0 0
8303 Baileygc23@aol.com Baileygc23@a... Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan Thoughts on Bill Swegan 3/22/2012 2:49:00 PM

It used to be said that the first 36 hours of not drinking were the most
dangerous for the alcoholic that is being treated in recovering from the
effects of alcohol. So the medical people were supposed to sedate the alcoholic
during this time to reduce the risk of his dying. I think we should not lose
sight of this if we are working with someone with acute alcoholism.

- - - -

With reference to Bill Swegan's scientific journal article on the advantages to
using tranquillizers to help alcoholics through early detox instead of the
substances like barbiturates (as in the case of Dr. Bob) and paraldehyde, that
were used in earlier AA practice.

0 -1 0 0
8304 kate.frisby kate.frisby How much did Bill W. earn from working in stocks? How much did Bill W. earn from working in stocks? 3/23/2012 4:21:00 AM

How much money did Bill make personally from his work in the stock exchange?

Thanks
Kate

0 -1 0 0
8305 Sherry C. Hartsell Sherry C. Hartsell RE: Word Use Word Use 3/23/2012 7:02:00 AM

From Sherry Hartsell, planternva2000, Roy Levin, and brian koch

- - - -

TOMMY HICKCOX'S COMMENTS hit a responsive chord, and many people wrote in
responding to him. Tommy said:

====================
These word counts give people like me who have wretched lives with
nothing better to do than to study word use in A.A. literature and
make great proclamations, trying to impress the credulous with our
great intellectual abilities.

It also provide fodder for arguments. The word "sponsor" is not used
in the Big Book. How significant is that?

The word "ego" is used a lot in current discussions in meetings, but
it is very sparingly used in the Big Book and 12 & 12, which implies
it wasn't used much in early A.A. However, Wilson used the
word/prefix "self" a whole lot. I suspect it was a cultural thing.

I have the Purple Salamander Press concordance, and I also have one
for the two books by 164 and More, which I find very useful as I can
carry it to meetings and negates the need to memorize which pages the
words are used on. At my age, any extra space in my brain is put to
use. I just wish 164 and More had included As Bill Sees It.

That's it for now. Back to pondering the use of the dash in A.A.
literature . . . .

Tommy H in Danville
====================

From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" hartsell@etex.net>
(hartsell at etex.net)

Tommy, everyone needs something to do and I found this note informative, thanks.

Sherry C. H.

Gilmer, Texas

- - - -

From: "planternva2000" planternva2000@yahoo.com>
(planternva2000 at yahoo.com)

Technically, it is an 'emdash': "A symbol used in writing and printing to
indicate a break in thought or sentence structure, to introduce a phrase added
for emphasis, definition, or explanation, or to separate two clauses."

- - - -

From: Roy Levin royslev@yahoo.com>
(royslev at yahoo.com)

You're my kind of AA book fanatic. One question I haven't gotten much feedback
on regarding semantic nuances in the book is whether Bill W. ever commented on a
distinction between "selfish" and "self-seeking." I have asked for feedback on
this and only gotten personal interpretations. I was hoping for a reference to
a talk or workshop given by Bill W. where he was asked this question and
answered it (as he was asked whether he meant any difference between charcater
defects and shortcomings, and he said "No, I just didn't want to repeat myself
using the same word as it was considered inferior prose style.") But selfish
and self-seeking are used in the same sentence in the book, which could
be construed as implying a difference between the two terms.

- - - -

From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com>
(kochbrian at hotmail.com)

Good question regarding significance. was running around in my head too ....

0 -1 0 0
8306 Shakey Mike Shakey Mike Re: March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs 3/24/2012 12:12:00 AM

I knew Nancy O. and will never forget dining with her the evening before the AA
Archives conference with her, our host Jared L and his wife Janie, Mr and Mrs
Mel B,and my wife to be Anne Marie.

As AA history was discussed I merely listened. I asked a couple of questions. I
listened to those who were talking AA history first hand. They were there. What
an experience. It was due to friendships that were formed by being a member of
"Buffs" and then "History Lovers."

Happy Birthday and many more. We are all blessed that it survives and
flourishes. That was Nancy's dream. All of you made it possible.

Thank You AAHL's,
Shakey Mike
Phila,PA USA

- - - -

TWELFTH ANNIVERSARY -- MARCH 16, 2000 - MARCH 16, 2012

0 -1 0 0
8307 bevflk@aol.com bevflk@a... Re: March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs March anniversary: founding of AAHistoryLovers/Buffs 3/24/2012 9:09:00 AM

Happy Birthday!!! Thank you for giving me the info on our founding fathers and
AA history

Beverly in Tucson

0 -1 0 0
8308 hdmozart hdmozart Re: Beer served at AA meeting? Beer served at AA meeting? 3/24/2012 12:19:00 PM

A collection of 'factlets' that one might find helpful -

====================
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/1661

Letter from Ruth Hock to Bill Wilson dated November 10, 1955

To keep us humble and laughing were developments like the Southern group started
via mail through (was his last name Henry?) Anyway, he wrote us flowing reports
about his group and its amazing recoveries of members of his group. One of our
traveling members stopped in for a visit and his letter to us was an eye opener
indeed. It seems that this particular group was based on the theory that all
alcoholic beverages were very bad for the alcoholic - except beer. This idea was
carried out so thoroughly that beer was served at their A.A. meetings with
copious readings of the A.A. book. Oh well - the beer itself soon cured that
misconception.
====================
http://howtosurviveaa.com/worst-aa-meetings/

TRANSCRIPTION OF RUTH HOCK TAPED INTERVIEW – - VESEY STREET, GLENDALE,
CALIFORNIA, MARCH 12, 1978, ONE TAPE, SIDE ONE.

And Bill felt, in the early days, that everyone should – every group had the
right to formulate it's own way of doing this particular thing, until it came
about that we had a wandering, loving, lovable Jewish salesman who traveled all
through the South. And he came back with stories about how they had one
particular group that, well, they served beer during the evening, but nothing
but beer! So that everything was perfectly fine, and of course, Bill thought it
was hilarious, but nevertheless, he also thought that this kind of thing
shouldn't go on.

[The transcription comes from an 'agenda' site - The CD exists, it's available
on Amazon - I couldn't verify the accuracy of the transcription]
=====================
http://www.amazon.com/Grateful-Have-Been-There-Alcoholics/dp/0942421442

Grateful to Have Been There - Nell Wing, pp 11

There was only one mention of beer and had nothing to do with drinking at an
A.A. meeting

Local runor had it that my father indulged in a beer or two occasionally, but
said rumor never reached the ears of our mother, who was firmly addicted to the
Women's Christian Temperance Union (WCTU)!
=====================
http://silkworth.net/mitchellk/articles/growth.html

Growth of Central Offices - Mitchell K

One story has it that a group responded to some questions posed to them by Bill
W. by stating that they are all doing well. The members of that group were no
longer drinking hard liquor and only drinking beer. They thought that this was a
great accomplishment for hard-core alcoholics.
====================
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/06/ff_alcoholics_anonymous/3/

Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don't Know How It Works
By Brendan I. Koerner | June 23, 2010 | 12:00 am | Wired July 2010

AA boomed in the early 1940s, aided by a glowing Saturday Evening Post profile
and the public admission by a Cleveland Indians catcher, Rollie Hemsley, that
joining the organization had done wonders for his game. Wilson and the founding
members were not quite prepared for the sudden success. "You had really crazy
things going on," says William L. White, author of Slaying the Dragon: The
History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America. "Some AA groups were
preparing to run AA hospitals, and there was this whole question of whether they
should have paid AA missionaries. You even had some reports of AA groups
drinking beers at their meetings."
====================
Slaying The Dragon - William White, pp135

Growth of A.A.groups was so rapid that there were inevitable concerns about
dilution and distortion of the A.A. program. In his biography of Bill Wilson,
RobertThomsen revealed a story of the flefgling A.A. group in Richmond, Virginia
that held meetings to "get away from their wives and talk things over, but saw
no reason not to drink beer at their meetings." [51]Thomsen 1975, pp319
(paperback, pp285)
====================
Bill W - Robert Thomsen, pp285

Nevertheless, as Bill never let himself forget, it wasn't the office mail that
was spreading the message. It was the band of tireless recovered alkies who went
on day after day and carried the word out to others. The number of these
stalwarts in the early 1949s was incalculable, but several, perhaps because of
their unorthodox methods, were close to Bill's heart. One of these was Irwin M.

Irwin was a supersalesman of Venetian blinds. A 250-pounder, he possessed a
personality, an energy and a gusto as monumental as his build. AA was his
religion, and because of a certain fanaticism in his approach, there was some
hesitafion in the beginning about giving him a list of prospects to contact. But
since his territory covered Atlanta, Jacksonville and New Orleans, as well as
Birmmgham and Indianapolis, and since there was a file filled with the names of
Southerners who'd so far had no contact with AA, they knew they couldn't be
choosy. They gave Irwin the list and sent him off.

Reports started coming in within weeks. Irwin had been incorrigible. With his
whirlwind technique he tracked down drunks in homes, taverns and offices, and
once he'd got his hooks into them he never let go. When he had to move on to
another town, he spent his nights shut up in a hotel room writing letters to all
his converts, admonishing themand praising them. Across the southland, new
groups began to spring up in the wake of irwin M, and if sometimes the questions
of these newcomers indicated a confusion between AA and the Holy Rollers, it
couldn't be helped. Bill hated to think what his atheist and agnostic friends
would say if they saw these letters, but there was no denying they were coming
from drunks who were sober. The South had been conquered again and much of the
credit had to go to Irwin M. and others like him.*

* From the beginning the southern drunks presented special problems. For example
a group in Richmond, Virginia, believed in holding regular meetings, in getting
away from their wives and talking things over, but saw no reason not to drink
beer at their meetings. It took time and the dedicated work of one John W. to
bring them around.

0 -1 0 0
8309 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst RE: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 3/26/2012 12:19:00 AM

what is the discrepancy between sobering up in New York or New Jersey?
Is that because of the AA "office" changing locations? I have always heard of
them referred to as the "New York" contingent.

I have always heard Hank Parkhurst was the first member "Bill sobered up in New
York" but the list below states Jersey.

Would it be accurate to say Jim B was the 4ht member to sober up in new York

I cannot tell you how thankful I am for this list!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ctp

-----Original Message-----
From: John Barton
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011
Subject: Names of the First One Hundred

Fellow History Lovers,

Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have
been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of
1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained
elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members
produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA
literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work
of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other
known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of
Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The
Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as
possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's
"spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr
Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in
The Golden Road)

Are there many more names that should be on this list? I suspect the answer
is yes! I have no info on new members in Akron for the first few months of
1939 and no doubt there were several, perhaps many! More research is
required at a future date.

Were there "One Hundred Men and Women" on or before the book was published
April 10,1939? Bill wrote many many times to different people that there
were and the available evidence seems to support this. Many historians and
authors who counted less than 100 previously might not have had access to
all the lists including the Amos List (for example compare to Pioneer by
Date of Sobriety List). Others may have followed statements made by some
pioneers like Jimmy Burwell who said Bill rounded up or exaggerated the
claim. Was Jimmy well informed? Did he know who all the Akron/Cleveland
members were? Not all of his recorded AA history (memoirs) have proved
accurate. Perhaps we've been wrong all along in saying there were only 60 to
70? Was everyone on this list still sober or with the fellowship in April of
1939? Probably not but then as noted above there were probably many new
members who were not properly documented or remain truly anonymous to us
till this day. So perhaps there actually was "One Hundred Men and Women" who
were staying sober by following the outlined program when the book came out.

I would love to hear if anybody can contribute information on any of the
less well know names on this list or any other sources which can be used to
prove or disprove the validity or the placement of a name on this list. Does
anyone believe a name has been missed? Many believe Ebby should have been
included. People like Wes, Eddie, and Russ eventually sobered up, should
they be included? Cebra later joined AA in Paris. How about Don, the Cohoes
banker who was sober in 36 but then seems to have faded off? Do you have any
reasonable evidence to support your claim? Please let me know your comments!

PS If anyone can provide me the last name for Gordon S. or Brooke B. both
believed to be from New York Group before 1939 I would be forever in your
debt!
 
1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY
2 Bob Smith May35 Akron
3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron
4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron
5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ
6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron
7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron
8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD
9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT
10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron
11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron
12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron
13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY
14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland
15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland
16 Harry Latta            Jul-36 Akron
17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron
18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron
19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron
20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron
21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ
22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ
23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron
24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron
25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland
26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron
27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron
28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron
29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron
30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland
31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland
32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron
33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron
34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ
35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron
36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron
37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ
38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron
39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron
40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron
41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron
42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ
43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron
44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron
45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron
46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron
47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY
48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron
49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron
50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron
51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron
52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron
53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron
54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron
55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron
56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron
57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron
58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron
59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron
60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY
61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland
62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland
63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY
64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY
65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT
66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY
67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY
68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron
69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY
70 Robert Taylor May38 NY
71 George Williams Jun-38 NY
72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ
73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA
74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY
75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI
76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY
77 James Scott Sep38 Akron
78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron
79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland
80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland
81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY
82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland
83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron
84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron
85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ
86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron
87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ
88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ
89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY
90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ
91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA
92 William Worton Feb39 NY
93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY
94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ
95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ
96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ
97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ
98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ
99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ
100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ

Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers  
Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard  
Brooke B Shep Cornell  
Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves  
Alec Johnson Ned Foote  
Gordon S. Russell Rathbone  
Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins  
Ernie Gerig Marty Mann  
John Reese Albert Golrick  
Harry Nash Grenville Curtis  
Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans  
Don McClean Oscar Vieths  
Rowland Jones Bill Cousins  
Sterling Parker Joe Mina  
Tom Pierce      Jackie Williams

0 -1 0 0
8310 Bill Lash Bill Lash Insider trading at AA Meeting Insider trading at AA Meeting 3/27/2012 6:50:00 AM

Classic!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

SEC Charges Five Individuals for Insider Trading Tip From AA Meeting

by Reese Darragh on March 14, 2012

http://compliancesearch.com/compliancex/insider-trading/sec-charges-five-individ\
uals-for-insider-trading-tip-from-aa-meeting/


The Securities and Exchange Commission brought civil insider-trading charges
against five individuals who allegedly made more than $1.8 million profits based
on a tip obtained through an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

In the filing, the regulator charged Timothy McGee, a financial adviser at
Ameriprise Financial Services for making illegal stock trading of Philadelphia
Consolidated Holding Corp after he received insider information of a pending
merger between the company and Japanese firm Tokio Marine Holdings.

A fellow AA member who is also a senior executive at the firm had confided with
McGee during one of the support group meeting that the pressures over the merger
were leading him to drink. Utilizing the information, McGee purchased the
company’s stock in advance of the July 23, 2008 merger and gain $292,128 when
the stock price of Philadelphia Consolidated increased by 64 percent on the
news.

Sharing the Wealth

McGee also allegedly shared the tip with a co-worker, Michael Zirinsky, who
purchased stock in his own trading accounts as well as his family. Per The Wall
Street Journal, Zirinsky also shared the information with his father, Robert
Zirinsky, and a friend in Hong Kong, Paolo Lam, who in turn shared the
information with another friend, whose wife, Marianna Sze Wan Ho, also traded on
the information.

The SEC also named four Zirinsky relatives as relief defendants, seeking
disgorgement of ill-gotten gains. They were not charged in the case. Altogether,
the Zirinsky family made $562,673.

Elsewhere in Hong Kong, a Reuters report confirmed that Lam and Ho have agreed
to settle the charges with the SEC without admitting or denying the allegations.
Lam made $837,975 while Ho gained $110,580 through their bets on the
information. Lam and Ho will pay $1.2 million and $140,000 respectively to the
SEC.

The SEC is pursuing penalties against McGee, Michael Zirinsky and his father,
Robert Zirinsky.

AA Shield

Unlike the common insider trading cases that often revolve around the breach of
confidential duty between an employee and the company’s shareholders, the
executive of Philadelphia Consolidated is not charged with any wrongdoing.

The SEC’s suit on Tuesday said that McGee misused the information obtained
from his relationship with the executive because the relationship was forged
through AA meetings. AA’s twelfth tradition policy was designed to encourage
participants to speak freely but anonymously.

"By spring and early summer 2008, while the PHLY executive was participating in
the merger negotiations and under significant pressure to ensure a successful
sale, he and McGee had known each other for almost a decade and forged a close
relationship in which they routinely shared confidences about each other's
personal lives and problems impacting them professionally," the SEC said.

Insider trading case stemmed from an AA meeting is a first for the regulator.

I guess the AA program has to be restructured for members to eliminate certain
details of their work from now on.
_____________________________________________

(Reese Darragh is a contributing writer for CompliancEX and Wall Street Job
Report. She is an experienced business news writer with expertise in
macroeconomics topic, the financial industry, rules and regulations including
the Dodd-Frank Act and the Sarbanes-Oxley Act as well as rules from other
federal regulators. She has a Masters Degree in International Economics and
Finance from Brandeis University.)

0 -1 0 0
8311 Patrick Murphy Patrick Murphy Henrietta Seiberling's differing accounts of Bill W's phone call Henrietta Seiberling's differing accounts of Bill W's phone call 3/27/2012 2:50:00 PM

I read that Henrietta Seiberling said in a letter that Bill Wilson's account of
his calling her from the Mayflower was a fabrication on his part. Does anyone
know what really happened that night of May 11th, 1935?

-Paddy Mur

- - - -

A LETTER FROM HENRIETTA CITED BY MITCHELL K.

Mitchell K. said that Henrietta Seiberling had accused Bill Wilson of lying in
his account of how he first phoned her:
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch3.htm

Much of the story relating to the phone calls at the Mayflower has been labeled
as false by one of the people who would have known about what actually
transpired there.

Henrietta Seiberling, the person who arranged the meeting between Bill and Dr.
Bob wrote to an early AA member telling him her side of the story. In that
undated (ca. Early 1950's) letter, Henrietta wrote the following about what Bill
had written in the RHS Memorial Grapevine issue.

"His accounts in the "Memoriam" Grapevine were made up - Telephone
conversations, etc - Everything phony ..."

- - - -

WHAT BILL W. WROTE IN THE 1951 GRAPEVINE:

Dr. Bob Memorial Edition of the AA Grapevine (1951)
Message #1637

It was a Saturday in May, 1935. An ill-starred business venture had brought me
to Akron where it immediately collapsed leaving me in a precarious state of
sobriety. That afternoon I paced the lobby of Akron's Mayflower Hotel. As I
peered at the gathering crowd in the bar, I became desperately frightened of a
slip. It was the first severe temptation since my New York friend had laid
before me what were to become the basic principles of AA, in November 1934. For
the next six months I had felt utterly secure in my sobriety. But now there was
no security; I felt alone, helpless. In the months before I had worked hard with
other alcoholics. Or, rather, I had preached at them in a somewhat cocksure
fashion. In my false assurance I felt I couldn't fall. But this time it was
different. Something had to be done at once.

Glancing at a Church Directory at the far end of the lobby, I selected the name
of a clergyman at random. Over the phone I told him of my need to work with
another alcoholic. Though I'd had no previous success with any of them I
suddenly realized how such work had kept me free from desire. The clergyman gave
me a list of ten names. Some of these people, he was sure, would refer me a case
in need of help. Almost running to my room, I seized the phone. But my
enthusiasm soon ebbed. Not a person in the first nine called could, or would,
suggest anything to meet my urgency.

One uncalled name still stood at the end of my list - Henrietta S. Somehow I
couldn't muster courage to lift the phone. But after one more look into the bar
downstairs something said to me, "You'd better." To my astonishment a warm
Southern voice floated in over the wire. Declaring herself no alcoholic,
Henrietta nonetheless insisted that she understood. Would I come to her home at
once?

Because she had been enabled to face and transcend other calamities, she
certainly did understand mine. She was to become a vital link to those fantastic
events which were presently to gather around the birth and development of our AA
society. Of all names the obliging Rector had given me, she was the only one who
cared enough. I would here like to record our timeless gratitude.

Straightway she pictured the plight of Dr. Bob and Anne. Suiting action to her
word, she called their house. As Anne answered, Henrietta described me as a
sobered alcoholic from New York who, she felt sure, could help Bob. The good
doctor had seemingly exhausted all medical and spiritual remedies for his
condition. Then Anne replied, "What you say, Henrietta, is terribly interesting.
But I am afraid we can't do anything now. Being Mother's Day, my dear boy has
just brought in a fine potted plant. The pot is on the table but, alas, Bob is
on the floor. Could we try to make it tomorrow?"

Henrietta instantly issued a dinner invitation for the following day.
At five o'clock next afternoon, Anne and Dr. Bob stood at Henrietta's door. She
discreetly whisked Bob and me off to the library.

- - - -

WHAT HENRIETTA SAID IN THE TAPE RECORDING
which was played at the 1971 Founders Day in Akron, Ohio

Message #138
Henrietta Sieberling on A.A.'s beginnings, supplied by Congressman John
Seiberling
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/138

Transcript Of Remarks by Henrietta B. Seiberling:

Bill, when he was in a hotel in Akron and down to a few dollars and owed his
bill after his business venture fell through, looked at the cocktail room and
was tempted and thought, "Well, I'll just go in there and get drunk and forget
it all, and that will be the end of it." Instead, having been sober five months
in the Oxford Group, he said a prayer. He got the guidance to look in a
ministers directory, and a strange thing happened.

He just looked in there, and he put his finger on one name: Tunks. And that was
no coincidence, because Dr. Tunks was Mr. Harvey Firestone's minister, and Mr.
Firestone had brought 60 of the Oxford Group people down there for 10 days out
of gratitude for helping his son, who drank too much. His son had quit for a
year and a half or so. Out of the act of gratitude of this one father, this
whole chain started.

So Bill called Dr. Tunks, and Dr. Tunks gave him a list of names. One of them
was Norman Sheppard, who was a close friend of mine and knew what I was trying
to do for Bob. Norman said, "I have to go to New York tonight but you can call
Henrietta Seiberling." When he told the story, Bill shortened it by just saying
that he called Dr. Tunks, but I did not know Dr. Tunks. Bill said that he had
his last nickel, and he thought, "Well, I'll call her."

So I, who was desperate to help bob in something I didn't know much about, was
ready. Bill called, and I will never forget what he said: "I'm from the Oxford
Group and I'm a Rum Hound." Those were his words. I thought, "This is really
manna from Heaven." And I said, "You come right out here." And my thought was to
put those two men together. Bill, looking back, thought he was out to help
someone else. Actually, he was out to get help for himself, no thought of
helping anyone else, because he was desperate. But that is the way that God
helps us if we let God direct our lives. And so he came out to my house, and he
stayed for dinner. And I told him to come to church with me next morning and I
would get Bob, which I did.

0 -1 0 0
8312 last_town last_town Re: Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets 3/28/2012 5:49:00 PM

First, Glenn thanks so much for posting this. I am a huge fan of Kurtz's
Not-God, and appreciate his historical insight.

With that said, I was hoping there might be a greater discussion of Kurtz's
contention that the phrase 'You're only as sick as your secrets' would have been
anathema to the founders, as he states in No. 9 "Spirituality and Recovery."
There is an earlier discussion of the origins of this phrase where it is
attributed to Maurer, but only a brief mention and it's from 2007.

Of course in present-day AA, anything not in the first 164 pages is highly
suspect, but I have never understood this as a call to publicly confess, but
rather as a call for rigorous honesty in working the steps. Further, to me, it
seems reminiscent of the idea in a Member's Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous
that part of the reasoning of the 4th and 5th steps was in dealing with the
alcoholics' guilt.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, I would love to hear anyone else's.

L
____________________________________

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut wrote:
>
> See http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html
>
> THE LAST FOUR ARTICLES CAN NOW ALSO BE DOWNLOADED:
>
> 9. Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey
> http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf
>
> 10. Whatever Happened to Twelve-Step Programs?
> http://hindsfoot.org/tcek10.pdf
>
> 11. Why A.A. Works: The Intellectual Significance of Alcoholics Anonymous
> http://hindsfoot.org/tcek11.pdf
>
> 12. Here's to Spuds MacKenzie!
> http://hindsfoot.org/tcek12.pdf

0 -1 0 0
8313 Margie Keith Margie Keith Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan Thoughts on Bill Swegan 3/28/2012 5:47:00 PM

In the early 70's we were still giving karo syrup and orange juice but had a
doctor on stand by.

0 -1 0 0
8314 corafinch corafinch Re: Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets 3/29/2012 8:37:00 AM

In his book, The New Group Therapy, Orval Hobart Mowrer (who never used his
first name and generally wrote as O. H. Mowrer) said that the phrase was a
distillation of his thinking as it developed over the years. Early in his career
he was inspired by Harry Stack Sullivan and later by the "reality therapy" of
William Glasser. Mowrer's methods were notoriously confrontational, resembling
in some ways the popular "gestalt therapy" of the time.

There is an interesting coincidence associated with the phrase about sins and
secrets. Mowrer said that the inspiration came to him after reading the novel
Miraculous Obsession by Lloyd C. Douglas. To me, Mowrer's concept does not seem
particularly close to the Douglas one, which was a development of ideas found in
the Gospels. However, Mowrer saw it all as one broad insight.

Lloyd C. Douglas was an early admirer of Frank Buchman, going back to the days
when both men worked in collegiate ministry. Douglas wrote an article about
Buchman around 1914, for a YMCA publication. He also hosted an Oxford Group
event in the early 1930s, when he was a minister in Canada. Although supportive,
he probably was not a member of the Oxford Group.

So the sins and secrets phrase has a nice provenance. It is also associated with
the most confrontational branch of rehab philosophy. The legacy of O. H. Mowrer
is strongest in substance abuse treatment programs for criminal offenders, but
is also found in other old-school, high-confrontation, low-empathy environments.
This may have something to do with Ernie's assessment. The concepts themselves
are not altogether bad but they have developed some seamy associations.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "last_town" wrote:
>
> I was hoping there might be a greater discussion of Kurtz's contention that
the phrase 'You're only as sick as your secrets' would have been anathema to the
founders, as he states in No. 9 "Spirituality and Recovery." There is an earlier
discussion of the origins of this phrase where it is attributed to Maurer
[should be spelled Mowrer], but only a brief mention and it's from 2007.

____________________________________

For the entire text of THE COLLECTED ERNIE KURTZ see
http://hindsfoot.org/ktcek1.html

For chapt. 9. "Spirituality and Recovery: the Historical Journey," see
http://hindsfoot.org/tcek09.pdf

0 -1 0 0
8315 starshine1943 starshine1943 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 3/29/2012 9:57:00 AM

Does anyone know the source where Bill W talks about a 13th step as a spiritual
level?

(NOT the idea of 13th stepping as trying to sexually seduce another AA member
under the pretense of trying to help that other person with his or her program.)

0 -1 0 0
8316 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut The Self-Hate Syndrome on p. 45 in the 12 and 12 The Self-Hate Syndrome on p. 45 in the 12 and 12 3/29/2012 1:17:00 PM

An interesting commentary from Sue C. (South Bend, Indiana) on the Self-Hate
Syndrome or Self-Loathing Syndrome described in the paragraph on page 45 in the
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions:

"If temperamentally we are on the depressive side, we are apt to be swamped with
guilt and self-loathing. We wallow in this messy bog, often getting a misshapen
and painful pleasure out of it. As we morbidly pursue this melancholy activity,
we may sink to such a point of despair that nothing but oblivion looks possible
as a solution. Here, of course, we have lost all perspective . . . . This is not
a moral inventory at all; it is the very process by which the depressive has so
often been led to the bottle and extinction."

This is discussed in the section on the Self-Hate Syndrome about halfway down
the page at

http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html

The article by Sue C. (South Bend, Indiana) "Escaping the Bog of Self-Loathing:
Learning how to love ourselves again, using the Fourth Step to heal our shame,
guilt, co-dependence, and depression" is then found at

http://hindsfoot.org/selfhate.pdf

Bill W's metaphor of the Bog of Self-Loathing may ultimately have been derived
from a classical source. So also on that webpage, see the link to Glenn F.
Chesnut, Dante's Swamp of Depression, a commentary on Dante's Inferno, Canto 7,
which describes the river Styx and the Fifth Circle of Hell, where those are
sent who are damned by their anger or depression:

http://hindsfoot.org/danteswamp.pdf

0 -1 0 0
8317 joelford@pacbell.net joelford@p... Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 3/30/2012 1:30:00 PM

From: "joelford@pacbell.net"
dean@complanners.com> (dean at complanners.com)

See paragraph 2 on "Clubs in AA" by Bill W. in the April 1947 AA Grapevine:

"As the majority view, we might suppose that to be a blanket endorsement of
clubs; we might think we couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them
as a central AA institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery
program without which the other Twelve Steps wouldn't work. At times club
enthusiasts will act as though they really believed we could handle our alcohol
problems by club life alone. They are apt to depend upon clubs rather than upon
the AA program."

_________________________________________________

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "starshine1943" wrote:

Does anyone know the source where Bill W talks about a 13th step as a spiritual
level?

(NOT the idea of 13th stepping as trying to sexually seduce another AA member
under the pretense of trying to help that other person with his or her program.)

0 -1 0 0
8318 LES COLE LES COLE RE: John Mark Whalon, not John A. Whalon John Mark Whalon, not John A. Whalon 3/31/2012 1:12:00 PM

From Les Cole and Glenn Chesnut

- - - -

From Les Cole:

THE BRATTLEBORO RETREAT (not "Asylum")
Tommy is correct on his point about the name of the Brattleboro institution. My
family in Vermont, and other natives, called it a "retreat". It is where
alcoholics Vermonters were sent under court order, but others with mental
problems also went there. Local folks usually just referred to it as
"Brattleboro". If Magistrate Collin Graves had not given Ebby's custody over to
friends Hazard, Graves, and Cornell, he would have been incarcerated in the
Brattleboro facility.

JOHN MARK WHALON (not "John A. Whalon")
Tommy's second discussion about Mark Whalon is correct. During research for my
recent book, I found the record of Mark's birth in the East Dorset town records.
It shows his name as John Mark Whalon. The full page of this record of births
that month, is on page 136 of my book http://www.LesCole-AA.com

I did not look for Mark's grave when I was researching up there.

Les Cole

_____________________________________________

THREE QUESTIONS FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR:

JAX760 wrote: "Mark" Whalon is really John Mark Whalon. Mark was his middle
name according to Bonnie L. owner of the Wilson House. John Mark Whalon is
buried in a cemetery on the mountain, northeast of the Wilson House.

But then the WIKIPEDIA article on him gives the name as "Mark A" instead of
"John Mark":
"Mark A Whalon (1886 - 1956) was an Irish-American author. Whalon was close
friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and said to be a
close influence on Wilson in his later life."

1. "IRISH-AMERICAN"
Where does the Wikipedia article (which gets repeated over and over verbatim on
the internet) get the idea that Whalon was "Irish American"? An Irishman in that
part of Vermont at that period of history? 'Tis possible, but do we have any
information about how Irish Whalon might have been? Was he born in Ireland, like
Sister Ignatia, or was he born in the United States, like Father Dowling? Even
in Dowling's case, I think we can say that the Irish tradition was still living,
given the nature of the strongly demarked ethnic neighborhoods in St. Louis when
he was growing up.

But how about Mark Whalon? Was he a major "New England Yankee" influence on the
young Bill Wilson, as is suggested in the books that are being written now about
Bill W., or was he in fact one of the earliest of the many Roman Catholic
influences which surrounded Bill Wilson all his life?

2. "JOHN A. WHALON" in ANCESTRY.COM REPORT:
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=USFedCen&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=0&\
msT=1&gss=ms_f-80&gsfn=Cliff&gsln=Whalon


1930 United States Federal Census
Name: Kathleen C Whalon, birth: abt 1898
Spouse: Mark A Whalon
Residence: 1930 - city, Bennington, Vermont

East Dorset and Bennington are both in Vermont, but they're at least forty miles
apart. Did some careless investigator look in the census reports for someone
from Vermont named Mark Whalon, find this particular "Mark A. Whalon" in
Bennington, and then all-too-quickly assume that this was the same person as the
rural mail deliveryman whom Bill Wilson knew?

So we might inquire further, for starters, to see if our Mark Whalon had a wife
named Kathleen.

================================================
JARED LOBDELL, PLEASE COME AND HELP US OUT HERE
================================================

(And while we're at it, someone might check and see if the body of the
unfortunate artist named Jeanne is in fact buried "beneath the sour apple tree
in my family buryin' ground right 'long side of my four regular wives and some
mail-order ones." If there are a bunch of Mark Whalon's wives and girlfriends
buried in the Whalon family cemetery, this can be ascertained by any proper
historian, by simply going there and reading the names and other info on the
tombstones.)

3. CLOSE INFLUENCE ON WILSON IN HIS LATER LIFE:
The Wikipedia article gets repeated over and over, absolutely verbatim, all over
the internet. It says "Mark A Whalon (1886 - 1956) was an Irish-American author.
Whalon was close friends with Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and
said to be a close influence on Wilson in his later life."

We not only have the problem of the middle initial A, and the question of how
Irish he really was --

What is with the claim in the wikipedia article that Mark was "said to be a
close influence on Wilson in his later life." This phrasing suggests that Bill
Wilson, even during the 1940's, 50's, and 60's, was still checking back with his
old friend Mark Whalon to see how he ought to set up the Twelve Traditions, the
system of delegates meeting in an annual general service conference, whether he
should keep on taking LSD, and all of these other hot topics.

I would not be complaining about this Wikipedia article were it not for the fact
that this is close to the only thing I can find on the internet anywhere about
Mark Whalon, which means that it is inevitably going to get copied into our AA
histories, with the assumption that this is accepted and proven historical fact.

Could we please get a short paragraph written, that we can post in the
AAHistoryLovers, which gives a brief biographical sketch of Mark Whalon the
rural mail deliveryman, which we can guarantee is accurate?

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

0 -1 0 0
8319 LES COLE LES COLE Bill's fifle Bill's fifle 3/31/2012 1:25:00 PM

Yesterday I was re-reading Robert Thomsen's book, "BILL W." and saw on page 24,
a discussion of Bill, as a child, talking with his older neighbor friend, Bill
Landon, about Civil War experiences. Thomsen describes how Landon had trained
Bill how to shoot,and persuaded the Griffth's to buy Bill a "25-20 Remington".

Les Coleelsietwo@msn.com
Colorado

0 -1 0 0
8320 bill@athenararebooks.com bill@a... Bill Wilson Documentary Film Bill Wilson Documentary Film 3/29/2012 9:38:00 PM

The new documentary on the life of Bill Wilson (entitled Bill W.) was
shown three times this past week at the Cleveland International Film
Festival, and I was able to attend the first two screenings.

The first showing was in Akron on Monday night followed by viewings on
Tuesday & Wednesday in downtown Cleveland, at the main venue for the
festival.

The theater in Akron was, as would be expected, sold out and the
audience gave the movie very positive reviews during the Q&A session
that followed. These questions were fielded by Kevin Hanlon and Dan
Carracino (the movie's producers/directors) and touched on a wide
range of AA history topics (with a not-unexpected focus on Dr. Bob's
part in the story).

The Tuesday afternoon showing in Cleveland was oversubscribed, so
another theater was opened up for a dual-showing to accommodate the
crowd. The Q&A that followed was a panel discussion with five
participants, including a doctor from a local treatment center. This one was
much shorter than the previous night, and covered a more
wide-ranging list of topics, including questions about A.A.'s role
in society and the world of the treatment industry.

To my mind, the seamless blending of film clips, photos, period
recordings and current interviews does an outstanding job of detailing
and explaining the four general periods in Wilson's life:

*His first 22 years (no booze)

*His 17-year career as a drunk

*The 21 years covering the founding of AA and his guidance
during its growth up until 1955

*The final 15 years of Bill's life that followed his
"turning AA over" to the fellowship in 1955

Plans are currently being made for limited-engagement theatrical runs in several
major U.S. cities, including New York City and Los Angeles
sometime in May (details to follow when available).

A radio interview with Kevin and Dan discussing the film can be heard
at:

http://www.wksu.org/news/story/31179

Old Bill

0 -1 0 0
8321 Bill Bill Re: Bill Wilson Documentary Film Bill Wilson Documentary Film 4/1/2012 7:06:00 AM

Does anyone know if the documentary will be subtitled in French?

--
William D.

0 -1 0 0
8322 David Brown David Brown Re: Re: Bill Wilson Documentary Film Bill Wilson Documentary Film 4/1/2012 6:24:00 PM

I have seen a private screening. Somehow I doubt it. But I have been wrong
before. The film is so uplifting

- - - -

Bill william.demeulenaere@gmail.com> wrote:

Does anyone know if the documentary will be subtitled in French?

0 -1 0 0
8323 Roger Roger Re: Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available Archived AAHL messages 2002, 2003, and 2004 now available 3/24/2012 9:48:00 AM

Great new service! Thanks much.

I downloaded easily and was wondering if the replies to posts were included.
Went to message 212 before I found that anyone had replied with a question or
comment. The question was not included in the download (post regarding AA
starting in Ireland). I also noted that post 216 followed 212 and on
AAHistoryLovers indeed posts 213-215 are missing or not used. Do you know why or
what they were if used?

- - - -

Reply from Glenn Chesnut (about the only parts I know anything about):

There are lots of missing/deleted messages in the numbered sequence of
AAHistoryLovers messages which are posted online at
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages
Numbers 18, 115, 120, 141-155, 157, 159-160, 168-173, 175-176, 206-208, 210-211,
213-215, 217, 219-225, 228, etc.

When the AAHistoryBuffs had to be discontinued, two people carried out the
laborious task of transferring messages over to the newly formed
AAHistoryLovers: Nancy Olson and Fiona over in Ireland.

Nancy is dead, so you would have to ask Fiona what she remembers from way back
then.

There are also lots of messages which were deleted in the original
AAHistoryBuffs, see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aahistorybuffs/messages

There does not seem to be any easily detectable pattern to the correspondence
between the number of the original message in the aahbuffs and the number of the
copy in the aahl. For example:

aahl 204 = aahbuffs 1017
aahl 205 = aahbuffs 1001
aahl 206-208 missing/deleted
aahl 209 = aahbuffs 186
aahl 212 = aahbuffs 229
aahl 213-215 missing/deleted
aahl 216 = aahbuffs 258
aahl 217 missing/deleted
aahl218 -- doesn't seem to match anything in aahbuffs
aahl 219-225 missing/deleted
aahl 226 = aahbuffs 574
aahl 227 = aahbuffs 601

It is, alas, unfortunately the case that in the Yahoo group system, once a
posted message has been deleted, there is no way to undelete it and recover it
again.

Fiona, did Nancy seem to have any rules or methods for deciding which messages
to dump, and the order in which to copy the remainder?

Although I was not directly involved in it, my understanding is that the
procedure that was used for cleaning up the message board was quite simple and
easy to understand: extraneous "chatty" messages that had no intrinsic
historical content were deleted, along with things like guesses that were later
shown to be dead wrong (that's why we try to avoid posting things now that are
based on member opinion, speculation, or especially "someone told me" or "an
oldtimer told me" messages, which nearly always turn out to be wrong!). But
every message was left in place when it contained any kind of important
historical material that had stood up to further inquiry.

Glenn Chesnut

- - - -

ORIGINAL MESSAGE --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Chesnut
wrote:
>
> All the messages from the AAHistoryLovers's first ten years (2002-2011) have
now been collected into one huge computer database. The Hindsfoot site will be
posting the first drafts (as they become available) of the messages as they are
edited into a more readable fashion as Microsoft Word DOCX documents.
>
> See, on the Hindsfoot site, A.A. Historical Materials Part 2 at
>
> http://hindsfoot.org/archive2.html
>
> which gives a link near the top of the page to the specific webpage on this
topic:
>
> http://hindsfoot.org/aahl.html
>
> The first three years of the group's messages are now available for
downloading:
>
> AA History Lovers for 2002, Messages 1-751
> http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs02.docx
>
> AA History Lovers for 2003, Messages 753- 1574
> http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs03.docx
>
> AA History Lovers for 2004, Messages 1575-2117
> http://unmeasureddistances.ftml.net/aahlmsgs04.docx

0 -1 0 0
8324 Bill Lash Bill Lash Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 4/3/2012 7:39:00 AM

Kevin Kaufmann, "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of
Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960," Ph.D. thesis at Loyola University in Chicago,
August 2011.

Google search under the title "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of
Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960" (it's a .pdf document) or copy & paste the
following link:

http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=luc_diss&s
ei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%
3Drigorous%2520honesty%2520a%2520cultural%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26sqi%3D2%
26ved%3D0CCUQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fecommons.luc.edu%252Fcgi%252Fvi
ewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1072%2526context%253Dluc_diss%26ei%3Det16T4mQO
ITw0gGp8fiUBg%26usg%3DAFQjCNGhz2v7ikaI0f-odR3uXVOPuKNdxA%26cad%3Drjt#search=
%22rigorous%20honesty%20cultural%22


Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

0 -1 0 0
8325 bill@athenararebooks.com bill@a... Re: Bill Wilson Documentary Film: French subtitles possible? Bill Wilson Documentary Film: French subtitles possible? 4/3/2012 11:29:00 AM

I asked one of the two producer/directors about French subtitles on
"Bill W." and he replied that "right now, we are focused on
the U.S. distribution of the film, including some form of theatrical
release, followed by a DVD later this year. We certainly have plans for
foreign and overseas distribution, but that will only come after we have
completed our American distribution plan. If everything goes according
to schedule, we will begin work on subtitling the film for international
release sometime later this year."

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill"
wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if the documentary will be subtitled in French?
>
> --
> William D.

0 -1 0 0
8326 Moderator AAHistoryLovers Moderator AAHistoryLovers Repository for AAHistoryLovers documents Repository for AAHistoryLovers documents 4/4/2012 10:42:00 AM

Wow, great! Thank you very much! -- Glenn C., Moderator, AAHistoryLovers

- - - -

Laurence Holbrook's website http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/
now has a repository for documents associated with the AA History Lover's Group:

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/

- - - -

TO CONTACT HIM:

email@LaurenceHolbrook.com> (email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)

- - - -

DOCUMENTS PRESENTLY POSTED:

Click here for the DropCaps font examples

Click here for the Stonebraker's drafts of Bill's story

Click here to open Joe & Charlie's talk on step 3 (MS Word)

Click here to open Joe & Charlie's talk on step 3 (PDF Format)

Click here to see Handout 1 - definitions

Click here to see Handout 2 - basic instincts

0 -1 0 0
8327 Laurence Holbrook Laurence Holbrook Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 3/28/2012 7:51:00 PM

From Larry Holbrook and Bill Lash

- - - -

"Laurence Holbrook" email@LaurenceHolbrook.com>
(email at LaurenceHolbrook.com)

I have not participated in a Joe & Charlie Big Book study group - I
understand it is a 'scripted' study - the MS Word version has two images in
it, one of some definitions, the other is about self instincts -

I added 4 links to this index - one is MS Word format of Joe & Charlie on
Step 3, another is a PDF format of the same material - the last two are
images that I copied from the MS Word document - clicking those links should
open those files in a web browser - you could also RIGHT click the links and
select "Save Target As ..." which will save copy on one's local hard drive -

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/

I hope this is helpful -

Larry Holbrook
-----------------------
Email@LaurenceHolbrook.com
(410) 802-3099

Current Location:
2833 Farm Road 350
Livingston, Texas 77351
Polk County
Central Standard Time
L N 030° 42' 01.4"
Lo W 094° 59' 55.7"
Elevation 105'

Permanent Address (Mail/Parcels):
Laurence Holbrook
161 Rainbow Drive #6183
Livingston, Texas 77399-1061

- - - -

From: Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Good morning. The Joe & Charlie Big Book Study handouts (and many other 12 Step
guides & exercises) can be found by going to www.justloveaudio.com & clicking on
"free resources". The Joe & Charlie handouts can be found in "free resources"
under "assorted" & scrolling all the way down to the bottom. Peace.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

0 -1 0 0
8328 jax760 jax760 Re: Names of the First One Hundred Names of the First One Hundred 3/29/2012 12:40:00 PM

The list indicates where people lived or were from at the time, not necessarily
where they sobered up. Prior to the publication of the Big Book in April 1939,
you could only have attended meetings at Bill's house in Brooklyn or the weekly
Oxford Group meeting at the Williams' house in Akron. (The first meeting which
was held in Cleveland started after the Big Book was published, on May 11, 1939
and the first New Jersey meeting in Upper Montclair on May 14th 1939.) I think
the point I was originally trying to make was that many of the "NY AA's" were
actually New Jerseyans.

Although Burwell is listed for NY he actually bounced around. Both before and
after his relapse in mid 1938 he was living with the Parkurst's in Upper
Montclair, NJ which is where he first met Bill according to Merton's notes.
After his relapse in June of 38 he stayed in NJ for almost a year as he worked
for Stain-Ox (the auto polish affiliate of Honor Dealers)

We may have to change Jimmy to NJ - of course later he ended up in Phili and
helped start that group as well as Camden NJ in May of 1940, one year to the
date of the first meeting in NJ on May 14th.

Shakey Mike might be able to supply some more info on Jimmy and his entrance
into AA.

Warm regards,

John Barton

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Parkhurst"
wrote:
>
> what is the discrepancy between sobering up in New York or New Jersey?
> Is that because of the AA "office" changing locations? I have always heard of
them referred to as the "New York" contingent.
>
> I have always heard Hank Parkhurst was the first member "Bill sobered up in
New York" but the list below states Jersey.
>
> Would it be accurate to say Jim B was the 4ht member to sober up in new York
>
> I cannot tell you how thankful I am for this list!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> ctp
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Barton
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011
> Subject: Names of the First One Hundred
>
> Fellow History Lovers,
>
> Below are the names of more than 125 "pioneers" who are believed to have
> been involved with the fellowship prior to, or up to and including, April of
> 1939. There are only two people listed whose last names have remained
> elusive. I believe this is the most comprehensive list of pioneering members
> produced to date. The sources for this list are varied and include AA
> literature, several different archives, personal letters, diaries, the work
> of other historians including published and unpublished manuscripts, other
> known lists such as The Cleveland Akron 220/226, Pioneers by Date of
> Sobriety, A New Light on the First Forty, The NJ Survey from Jan 1940,The
> Amos List, Who's Who in AA, etc. Sober dates have been determined as best as
> possible from the sources listed and taking into account that a person's
> "spiritual birthday" sometimes did not factor in a known relapse such as Dr
> Bob's date listed as May of 34 (see the comments for the Amos List SOB in
> The Golden Road)
>
> Are there many more names that should be on this list? I suspect the answer
> is yes! I have no info on new members in Akron for the first few months of
> 1939 and no doubt there were several, perhaps many! More research is
> required at a future date.
>
> Were there "One Hundred Men and Women" on or before the book was published
> April 10,1939? Bill wrote many many times to different people that there
> were and the available evidence seems to support this. Many historians and
> authors who counted less than 100 previously might not have had access to
> all the lists including the Amos List (for example compare to Pioneer by
> Date of Sobriety List). Others may have followed statements made by some
> pioneers like Jimmy Burwell who said Bill rounded up or exaggerated the
> claim. Was Jimmy well informed? Did he know who all the Akron/Cleveland
> members were? Not all of his recorded AA history (memoirs) have proved
> accurate. Perhaps we've been wrong all along in saying there were only 60 to
> 70? Was everyone on this list still sober or with the fellowship in April of
> 1939? Probably not but then as noted above there were probably many new
> members who were not properly documented or remain truly anonymous to us
> till this day. So perhaps there actually was "One Hundred Men and Women" who
> were staying sober by following the outlined program when the book came out.
>
> I would love to hear if anybody can contribute information on any of the
> less well know names on this list or any other sources which can be used to
> prove or disprove the validity or the placement of a name on this list. Does
> anyone believe a name has been missed? Many believe Ebby should have been
> included. People like Wes, Eddie, and Russ eventually sobered up, should
> they be included? Cebra later joined AA in Paris. How about Don, the Cohoes
> banker who was sober in 36 but then seems to have faded off? Do you have any
> reasonable evidence to support your claim? Please let me know your comments!
>
> PS If anyone can provide me the last name for Gordon S. or Brooke B. both
> believed to be from New York Group before 1939 I would be forever in your
> debt!
>  
> 1 Bill Wilson Dec34 NY
> 2 Bob Smith May35 Akron
> 3 Bill Dotson Jun-35 Akron
> 4 Ernest Galbraith Aug35 Akron
> 5 Henry Parkhurst Sep35 NJ
> 6 Walter Bray Sep35 Akron
> 7 Phil Smith Sep35 Akron
> 8 John Mayo Oct-35 MD
> 9 Silas Bent Nov35 CT
> 10 Harold Grisinger Jan-36 Akron
> 11 Paul Stanley Jan-36 Akron
> 12 Tom Lucas Feb36 Akron
> 13 Myron Williams Apr-36 NY
> 14 Joseph Doppler Apr-36 Cleveland
> 15 Robert Oviatt Jun-36 Cleveland
> 16 Harry Latta            Jul-36 Akron
> 17 James D. Holmes Oct-36 Akron
> 18 Alfred Smith Jan-37 Akron
> 19 Alvin Borden Jan-37 Akron
> 20 Howard Searl Jan-37 Akron
> 21 William Ruddell Feb37 NJ
> 22 Douglas Delanoy Feb37 NJ
> 23 Robert Evans Feb37 Akron
> 24 Frank Curtis Feb37 Akron
> 25 Jane Sturdevant Mar-37 Cleveland
> 26 Harry Zollars Mar-37 Akron
> 27 Richard Stanley Apr-37 Akron
> 28 Harlan Spencer Apr-37 Akron
> 29 Wallace Gillam Apr-37 Akron
> 30 Lloyd Tate Jun-37 Cleveland
> 31 William Jones Jun-37 Cleveland
> 32 Chester Parke Jun-37 Akron
> 33 Lawrence Patton Jun-37 Akron
> 34 Paul Kellogg Jul-37 NJ
> 35 Earl Treat Jul-37 Akron
> 36 William Van Horn Jul-37 Akron
> 37 Florence Rankin Sep37 NJ
> 38 Charles Simonson Sep37 Akron
> 39 Irvin Nelson Sep37 Akron
> 40 Frank Krumrine Sep37 Akron
> 41 Edward Naher Oct-37 Akron
> 42 Joseph Taylor Oct-37 NJ
> 43 John Hughes Oct-37 Akron
> 44 Henry Pearce Nov37 Akron
> 45 Joe Schaffer Nov37 Akron
> 46 Frank Hadrick Nov37 Akron
> 47 Ned Poynter Nov37 NY
> 48 Fred Johnson Dec37 Akron
> 49 Wade Hadsell Dec37 Akron
> 50 George Dovsner Dec37 Akron
> 51 Harold Schitz Dec37 Akron
> 52 Carl Reinert Jan-38 Akron
> 53 Edith Scott Jan-38 Akron
> 54 Norman Tuit Jan-38 Akron
> 55 Thurman Traugh Jan-38 Akron
> 56 Edward Armitage Jan-38 Akron
> 57 Jack Darrow Jan-38 Akron
> 58 Kenneth Arthur Jan-38 Akron
> 59 Edward Brock Jan-38 Akron
> 60 James Burwell Jan-38 NY
> 61 Clarence Snyder Feb38 Cleveland
> 62 Charlie Johns Feb38 Cleveland
> 63 Raymond Campbell Feb38 NY
> 64 Van Wagner Feb38 NY
> 65 Norman Hunt Feb38 CT
> 66 Harold Sears Feb38 NY
> 67 Captain Coxe Apr-38 NY
> 68 George Mullin Apr-38 Akron
> 69 Herbert Taylor May38 NY
> 70 Robert Taylor May38 NY
> 71 George Williams Jun-38 NY
> 72 Harry Brick Jun-38 NJ
> 73 Roland (Bob ) Furlong Jun-38 MA
> 74 William Emerson Jul-38 NY
> 75 Archie Trowbridge Sep38 MI
> 76 Horace Maher Sep38 NY
> 77 James Scott Sep38 Akron
> 78 Edward Andy Oct-38 Akron
> 79 John Dolan Oct-38 Cleveland
> 80 Vaughn Phelps Oct-38 Cleveland
> 81 Horace Chrystal Oct-38 NY
> 82 William Hess Oct-38 Cleveland
> 83 Wallace Gillam Oct-38 Akron
> 84 Richard Rowe Nov38 Akron
> 85 Thomas Birrell Nov38 NJ
> 86 Delmar Tryon Nov38 Akron
> 87 Morgan Ryan Dec38 NJ
> 88 Wallace Von Arx Dec38 NJ
> 89 Joseph Worden Jr. Dec38 NY
> 90 Eddie Schroeder Jan-39 NJ
> 91 Patrick Cooper Jan-39 CA
> 92 William Worton Feb39 NY
> 93 Robert Volentine Mar-39 NY
> 94 Ernest MacKenzie Mar-39 NJ
> 95 Gordon MacDougal Mar-39 NJ
> 96 Hazel Cloos Mar-39 NJ
> 97 Herbert Debevoise Mar-39 NJ
> 98 Fred Hyde Mar-39 NJ
> 99 Raymond Wood Mar-39 NJ
> 100 Henry Heller Mar-39 NJ
>
> Other Names - Shortly after April 1st or Not Sober or Oxford Groupers  
> Edwin Thacher Rowland Hazard  
> Brooke B Shep Cornell  
> Edgar Reilly Cebra Graves  
> Alec Johnson Ned Foote  
> Gordon S. Russell Rathbone  
> Dr. Crowley Ernest Atkins  
> Ernie Gerig Marty Mann  
> John Reese Albert Golrick  
> Harry Nash Grenville Curtis  
> Freddie Breithut Wes Wymans  
> Don McClean Oscar Vieths  
> Rowland Jones Bill Cousins  
> Sterling Parker Joe Mina  
> Tom Pierce      Jackie Williams
>

0 -1 0 0
8329 John Barton John Barton Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/29/2012 1:13:00 PM

"In one western city and its environs" refers to Akron and the surrounding areas
including Cleveland. See the 1st edition stories of Tom and Maybelle Lucas (My
Wife and I) and Joe Doppler (The European Drinker) talking about 70 people at
the weekly meeting.
 
There was no "Cleveland Group" before May 11th 1939. Stories written and
published in the OM and the Big book (1st ed.) published April 10, 1939. Bill
kind of misspoke in AA comes of age and the foreword to the 2nd edition when he
said there was a third group in Cleveland in 1937. What actually occurred is
that the "Clevelanders" began coming to Akron in the summer of 1936 when Joe
Doppler and Bob Oviatt joined up. Several more were added in 1937 but they all
drove up to Akron for the weekly Oxford Group meeting at the Williams'.
 
Excerpt below from Bill's recounting of the movement's history to the trustees
via letter in late 1940.

"When this book appeared in April of last year there were approximately 100 A.A.
members. Two thirds of them were at Akron, Ohio, or nearby communities in the
northern part of that state. Most of the remainder were in or near New York City
and a few others were scattered along the Atlantic Seaboard. The work had then
been in existence over four years."
 
God Bless
 
John Barton


________________________________
From: buckjohnson41686 buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 8:38 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: hundred vs. thousand(s)

From: buckjohnson41686@yahoo.com>
(buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com)

SEE MESSAGE 6882, Sun Sep 19, 2010: Already 80 people in the Cleveland group in
Spring 1939?

Geoff Smith noted that in Bill's story, it mentions that "in a western town
there are thousands of members," yet when the book was written there were fewer
than 100 alcoholics total. Was this added to Bill's story later? I don't think
so, as it's in my 1st edition. What is the explanation for this mismatch?

Glenn Chesnut responded:

I think Geoff is referring to the passage found on pp. 15-16 in the current
(4th) edition:

"In one western city and its environs there are one thousand of us and our
families. We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they
seek. At these informal gatherings one may often see from 50 to 200 persons. We
are growing in numbers and power."

According to my notes, the "western city" was Cleveland, and in the second
printing of the 1st edition, among the changes made:

On page 25 line 23, 80 of us was changed to 500 of us.

And on page 25 line 26, 40-80 persons was changed to 50-200 persons.

Later on, in the third printing of the 1st edition, on page 25 line 23, 500 of
us was changed to 1000 of us.

Is this the passage that you are asking about, Geoff?

There is still the question of the Big Book's original statement that in 1939
there were 80 people in the Cleveland area (even if we count families as well as
the alcoholics themselves), with 40 to 80 people attending "informal gatherings"
there. Has this group ever looked at those numbers? Are they are all possible?

0 -1 0 0
8330 brian koch brian koch RE: Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960 4/4/2012 11:11:00 AM

Wow. This was a thesis statement and the title is typewritten as follows?

"A CUTURAL HISTORY OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS"

No spellcheck needed to be a Dr?
___________________________________________


From: barefootbill@optonline.net
Subject: Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of AA 1935-1960

Kevin Kaufmann, "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of
Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960," Ph.D. thesis at Loyola University in Chicago,
August 2011.

Google search under the title "Rigorous Honesty: A Cultural History of
Alcoholics Anonymous 1935-1960" (it's a .pdf document) or copy & paste the
following link:

http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=luc_diss&s
ei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%
3Drigorous%2520honesty%2520a%2520cultural%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26sqi%3D2%
26ved%3D0CCUQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fecommons.luc.edu%252Fcgi%252Fvi
ewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1072%2526context%253Dluc_diss%26ei%3Det16T4mQO
ITw0gGp8fiUBg%26usg%3DAFQjCNGhz2v7ikaI0f-odR3uXVOPuKNdxA%26cad%3Drjt#search=
%22rigorous%20honesty%20cultural%22


Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

0 -1 0 0
8331 Jon Markle Jon Markle Re: Beer served at AA meeting? Beer served at AA meeting? 3/29/2012 5:43:00 AM

This gave me a wonderful warm chuckle this morning. As I can recall one night,
my grand-sponsor, John W, relating this story, about that beer drinking group.

I can still remember him asking me once, on the night of my proud announcement
of being sober for 3 months: "and Jon, how's that marijuana going for you?"
LOL Of course, I was still determined to do what we laughingly referred to as
"Jon's Marijuana Maintenance Program". That was my second attempt to stay
sober without working the steps.

I'm now on my third . . . . and this time I'm following the suggestions found in
the Book and the 12x12. Seems it works better when I follow the directions.


Jon Markle
Raleigh, NC
9.9.82

On Mar 24, 2012, at 12:19 PM, hdmozart wrote:

From the beginning the southern drunks presented special problems. For example a
group in Richmond, Virginia, believed in holding regular meetings, in getting
away from their wives and talking things over, but saw no reason not to drink
beer at their meetings. It took time and the dedicated work of one John W. to
bring them around.

0 -1 0 0
8332 B B Re: hundred vs. thousand(s) hundred vs. thousand(s) 3/29/2012 3:13:00 PM

This from the multilith version of the 1938 manuscript. Appears in Bill's story.

"We commenced to make many fast friends and a fellowship has grown up among us
of which it is a wonderful thing to feel a part. The joy of living we really
have, even under pressure and difficulty. I have seen one hundred families set
their feet in the path that really goes somewhere; have seem the most impossible
domestic situations righted; feuds and bitterness of all sorts wiped out. I have
seen men come out of asylums and resume a vital place in the lives of their
families and communities. Business and professional men have regained their
standing. There is scarcely any form of trouble and misery which has not been
overcome among us. In one Western city and its environs there are eighty of us
and our families. We meet frequently at our different homes, so that newcomers
may find the fellowship they seek. At these informal gatherings one may often
see from 40 to 80 persons. We are growing in numbers and power."

_____________________________________________

> From: "B"
> (kochbrian at hotmail.com)
>
> More information comes in. Here is Bill's story as it appeared in the first
printing.
>
> "There is scarcely any form of human misadventure and misery which has not
been
> overcome among us. In a Western city and its environs, there are sixty of us
and
> our families. We often meet informally at our houses, so that newcomers may
find
> what they seek. Gatherings of twenty to sixty are common. We are growing in
> numbers and power."

- - - -

> From: Dudley Dobinson
> (DudleyDobinson at aol.com)
>
> Hi, The first printing on page 25 (Now 15) says 80 members and "At these
informal
> gatherings one may often see from 40 to 80 persons." On page 27 (Now 17)
refers
> to "One hundred men who were just as hopeless as Bill." Adjustments were made
in
> later printings.
>
> Dudley D. Birr Ireland

0 -1 0 0
8333 Bryan S. Reid Bryan S. Reid Re: Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets Collected Ernie Kurtz: criticism of sick as your secrets 3/28/2012 9:40:00 PM

I certainly heard "you're only as sick as your secrets" regularly when I
was early in the program. When it was said publicly (i.e., in a meeting),
it was a general statement directed at no one in particular, almost always
in the context of discussing getting honest.

When I heard it from my sponsor and a couple of old-timers who had taken me
under their wings, it was initially directed to "Bryan, you have got to get
honest with yourself," meaning I'd never get anywhere with my recovery
until I got truly honest with myself. Subsequently, it was meant as "Bryan,
you have to get honest with others," meaning things I kept totally secret
and didn't share with anyone were going to end up eating me up inside. It
was almost always one-on-one, although occasionally with my sponsor and two
of the old-timers going out after a meeting for coffee (known as the 100
Year Club - I had about a year and the rest of them made it add up to 100
years; actually it was about 103). It really brings tears to my eye to
think about those nights and what those men did for me. There was
absolutely nothing too stupid for me to say or ask with them.

I still hear it in meetings and occasionally use it myself. It helped me a
lot. I never could have done the 4th and 5th Steps without having gotten
with myself first. Admittedly, I can only evaluate it in the context of my
own experience.

Having said that, when you're really new, really green and really raw, you
grab at anything that works. In my first month, I can remember one of the
old-timers saying to me and a couple of guys with roughly the same amount
of time, you only have to do 4 things: If it's not right don't do it, if
it's not yours don't take it and if it's not true don't say it. He said if
you do that and don't drink between meetings, you'll be off to a great
start. Another one that's not in the BB or 12+12, but it worked for me.

I have to wonder if it would have been an anathema to Bill and Dr. Bob, and
the first 100. As I've listened to talks given by them, they stressed that
getting honest was crucially important to getting sober and staying sober.

And I believe it to be true - things that I live in denial of or stuff
inside to hide them from other people will ultimately take me back out.

Greetings to all from SE Arizona,

Bryan

Highway 92 Group
Sierra Vista AZ

0 -1 0 0
8334 Bill Lash Bill Lash Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/4/2012 6:05:00 PM

I just wanted to point out very quickly that the Joe & Charlie Big Book
Studies were NOT scripted. A transcript of one of their studies that was
originally recorded on cassette is available online & can be also found at
www.justloveaudio.com by clicking on “free resources” & then clicking on
“assorted” & then scroll down to “Big Book Study (Joe & Charlie)”. That is
where I think the Step 3 material is from that Larry is talking about. It
is from a full transcript of a recording & is NOT a copy of a script that
you may have imagined they read. Typing into a computer every word of the
entire weekend presentation (eight 90-minute cassettes) is an extreme
example of someone who had way too much free time. But it also shows the
importance that someone gave to the Joe & Charlie Big Book Studies. I know
these studies radically changed my life for the better.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

From: Laurence Holbrook
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012
Subject: Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout

I have not participated in a Joe & Charlie Big Book study group - I
understand it is a 'scripted' study ....

0 -1 0 0
8335 Nancys Cell Nancys Cell Joe and Charlie 4th Step Forms Joe and Charlie 4th Step Forms 4/4/2012 8:21:00 PM

I was privileged to attend numerous Big Book Seminars in Sacramento, California
including the 20th and final one in 2005. Willie B., who presented the Steps
from the Twelve and Twelve, was my sponsor for several years until her death,
January 23, 2011.

Charlie P. personally approved the the Fourth Step forms that I recreated on my
computer and continue to share with other members. We use these forms for the
Fourth Step during our weekly Book Study group in Lodi, California and I also
use them with my AA babies. Since they were created in InDesign, which not
everyone has, I saved the document in PDF format for your viewing and use.
Please go to the document at

http://www.laurenceholbrook.com/AAHistoryLovers/4th%20Step%20Inventory.pdf

Thanks to Laurence Holbrook for creating the link on his website. Pass it on!

Love in Service,

Nancy Karvonen
Galt, California
5/24/72

0 -1 0 0
8336 Jon Markle Jon Markle Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan Thoughts on Bill Swegan 3/29/2012 7:21:00 AM

From: Jon Markle, Sherry C. Hartsell, Woody in Akron, and Charley B ill

- - - -

From: Jon Markle jon.markle@mac.com>
(jon.markle at mac.com)

When working with someone who has been drinking large quantities of alcohol,
they probably should have a medical detox, in a facility where they can be
closely watched and treated if necessary. Detoxing off of alcohol can be very
dangerous and sometimes deadly. It's dangerous for us to offer speculation and
advice unless we are medically trained to do so.

In the early days, I believe that most drunks were of the "hopeless" variety and
the general consensus was to take your man to a hospital if available, for
detox. Today, not every drunk needs to be detoxed because our "bottom" has been
raised.

Medical detox has been abused by some of "us" because it's an easy way to get
through a hang over. Drugs are the new alcohol. There seems to be some concern
in the recovery community and among some professionals about the wisdom of using
too many drugs, especially for the "revolving door" alcoholics -- meaning they
are now addicts in addition to being alcoholics.

I know that some current models of recovery type "houses" use a step up method,
where the client is assessed as to whether they need medical detox, or can go
through a "social detox" without medication, but under observation.

Jon Markle
Raleigh, NC
9.9.82

- - - -

From: "Sherry C. Hartsell" hartsell@etex.net>
(hartsell at etex.net)

Yep, I got karo syrup over ice w/lemon squeezed into it, glass after glass for
first 2-3 days!

- - - -

From: Robt Woodson wdywdsn@sbcglobal.net>
(wdywdsn at sbcglobal.net)

Re: Karo and OJ ...

I made and served many such "cocktails" which included stirred in brown sugar
and a whipped raw egg for protein as a long term kitchen trustee in the local
county jail during that period ... as I remember it, the real deal had sometimes
included a shot of liquor to begin with ... to ease the shakes. They were
"swimming" on cold tile and concrete floors in the "drunk tank" there ... no
doctors.

From the "not so fond" memories deparyment,
Woody in Akron

- - - -

From: Charley B ill charley92845@gmail.com>
(charley92845 at gmail.com)

Here in Southern California, in the early '70s I was visited by a task force
from the Icebreakers Group and the Dry Dock Group.They arranged for 24/7
coverage in our little house and always had that abominable hot warm orange
juice and syrup. As far as I kmow, no dedicated medical support, but we all had
basic medical in the military.

- - - -

ORIGINAL MESSAGES WERE

From: Margie Keith
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Bill Swegan

In the early 70's we were still giving karo syrup and orange juice but had a
doctor on stand by.

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com on Mar 22, 2012:

It used to be said that the first 36 hours of not drinking were the most
dangerous for the alcoholic that is being treated in recovering from the effects
of alcohol. So the medical people were supposed to sedate the alcoholic during
this time to reduce the risk of his dying. I think we should not lose sight of
this if we are working with someone with acute alcoholism.

- - - -

With reference to Bill Swegan's scientific journal article on the advantages to
using tranquillizers to help alcoholics through early detox instead of the
substances like barbiturates (as in the case of Dr. Bob) and paraldehyde, that
were used in earlier AA practice.

0 -1 0 0
8337 Masterman Masterman Did anyone tape or film the Grapevine play In Our Own Words? Did anyone tape or film the Grapevine play In Our Own Words? 4/2/2012 7:56:00 PM

I was a sponsee of Sybil Corwin.

My name is Matt, and I wanted to ask, did anyone tape or film the Grapevine play
"In Our Own Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous"?

I'm sure Sybil would have loved it. When she was doing her 12 year service as
the executive secretary of the Central Office in LA she said they ordered
hundreds of the pamphlets explaining the NEW 12 traditions that AA did not have
when she got sober in 1941 so they used to go around and they did a "Traditions
Play" which you can get a copy of from the NY Office (I'm sure you all know
that) so they went around to all the meetings (there was only one in LA at her
first meeting 3/21/1941, and had grown to over a hundred and present day over
2000 in the LA area alone.

Back then, if you started a meeting you owned it. They got furious at Tex Adams,
Sybil's brother who started the "hole in the ground" meeting in huntington park.
He told them it was a long rough drive to downtown LA from his home (no freeways
back then, no route 10, no route 5).

They told him they had hired a lawyer and were going to incorporate AA in Los
Angeles and he could consider himself excommunicated from the group. He laughed
at them and told them that they might as well try to incorporate a sunrise and
predicted that there would be hundreds of groups popping up all over southern
California.

Anyway if anyone has a tape of the Grapevine Play I would be so appreciative.

If you'd like to here about Sybil's sponsee Irma Livoni who got kicked out of AA
you can read about it (too long to post here) at

http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-irma_livoni.html

also a picture of my wonderful Sybil, she and I were on her porch, talking about
AA. Bob was going to color her hair that day so she was wearing her "my grey is
showing" cap.

Much AA love to you all,

Matt

pupmasters@yahoo.com


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "jaxena77" wrote:
>
> To Our Friends and Supporters in the AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group,
>
> We are very excited to announce that on Saturday, June 25, 2011, In Our Own
Words: Pioneers of Alcoholics Anonymous will be performed in Los Angeles County
for the very first time. We are especially honored for this opportunity to tell
Sybil Corwin's story in her hometown, alongside the stories of Mort Joseph,
Cliff Walker, Frank Randall, June G and the many pioneering members of AA in
Southern California. The AAHistoryLovers Yahoo Group was vital in the
researching and writing of this documentary style play.
>
> Our shows in Northern California and Texas have sold out to standing room only
audiences for the past two years. Please SAVE THE DATE and spread the word to
anyone you know in Southern California. We need your help to PASS IT ON!
>
> In Love and Service,
> Jackie B.
>
> ===============================================
> FULL COLOR FLYER WITH PHOTOS:
> http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/771229/0076d7232a/TEST/TEST/
> ===============================================

0 -1 0 0
8338 marathonmanric marathonmanric TEMPORARY: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? TEMPORARY: Which Miami Hospital was Bill in when he passed? 4/3/2012 8:17:00 PM

Mr Moderator,

I replied to this post stating that I grew up my first ten years in AA, in
Miami, and explained what I heard and know of the Miami Heart Institute where
Bill Wilson passed. I received an email, out of the group, of one who wanted to
know a bit more that I could share. I've lost or have accidently deleted the
email address and wonder if I might post a call, if that someone sees it, they
can re-email me. Thank you, Ric



Hi, I'm Ric, a happy and grateful alcoholic, When this thread was active, I
received a personal reply which I have since lost. If you contacted me
concerning The Miami Heart Institute and Bill W's passing, please reply again so
that I may continue our conversation.

Thank you,

Ric in Salinas, Ca

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "B" wrote:
>
> I have seen some obits for bill and they mention a Miami Florida Hospital.
Does anyone know which hospital it was? Thanks to all my fellow history buffs.
>

0 -1 0 0
8339 J. Lobdell J. Lobdell John Mark Whalon John Mark Whalon 4/5/2012 12:10:00 AM

From: J. Lobdell jlobdell54@hotmail.com> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

John Mark Whalon was b. Dorset VT June 16 1886 [WW2 Draft Card], unmarried in
1942.

Inducted April 21 1918 attended School of Aerial Photography overseas Oct 15
1918 to Feb 18 1919

In 1918 a surveyor employed by William Griffith and unmarried [WW1 Draft Card]

The 1927 birth certificate of Cornelius Bayard Whalon shows father John Mark
Whalon, mother Kathleen Isabel Whalon: the two were married in Canada.

His Sept 21 1956 obituary gives his birth as August 6, 1886 [error], his
surviving son as Lawrence [no surviving widow], but his name is indeed John Mark
Whalon. The 1930 Mark A Whalon, wife Kathleen, children Lawrence and Cornelius,
is clearly [an error for] our John Mark Whalon.

He appears as John M. in the 1900 Census, with his father William C. [b. 1855]
having both parents born in Ireland and his mother Rose [Kelleher] [b. 1862]
having both parents born in Ireland. -- Jared

0 -1 0 0
8340 LES COLE LES COLE More on Mark Whalon More on Mark Whalon 3/31/2012 4:13:00 PM

The US Census for 1910 shows the following:

John M Whalon
Age 23 Male White American
Est Birth year 1887
Birth location: Dorset, Bennington,VT

Relation to Head: Son
Head of household: William C.

Other people in household:
William Whalon: 56 Yrs, Male, Father
Rose Whalon: 48 yrs, Female, Mother
William Whalon: 27 yrs, Male, Sibling
Mary Whalon: 18 yrs, Female

Father's First Name: William C.
Father's Last Name: Whalon
Father's Birthplace: Vermont
Mother's First Name: Rose K.
Mother's Birthplace: Scotland

Marital Status: Single

Sheet: ASheet number: 12
Collection: 1910 U.S. Federal Population Census

0 -1 0 0
8341 Chuck Parkhurst Chuck Parkhurst Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 3/30/2012 5:48:00 PM

Members

I do not see the reference to a "spiritual level" in the paragraph below. I
would like to view this entire article by Bill if anyone has a link. Is Bill
referring to AA clubs as in "Alano" clubs and the like?

In Service With Gratitude,

Chuck Parkhurst


-----Original Message-----
From: joelford@pacbell.net
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012
Subject: Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level

See paragraph 2 on "Clubs in AA" by Bill W. in the April 1947 AA Grapevine:

"As the majority view, we might suppose that to be a blanket endorsement of
clubs; we might think we couldn't get along without them. We might conceive them
as a central AA institution -- a sort of 'thirteenth step' of our recovery
program without which the other Twelve Steps wouldn't work. At times club
enthusiasts will act as though they really believed we could handle our alcohol
problems by club life alone. They are apt to depend upon clubs rather than upon
the AA program."

0 -1 0 0
8342 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/4/2012 3:27:00 PM

The 2005 Holiday (Christmas) issue of Box 4-5-9, the AA General Service Office
newsletter, gave an account of requests for advice about study guides from
members and groups in the 1970s. AA World Services set up a committee to discuss
the issue and in 1977 published a position paper entitled, "Big Book Study
Guides and other interpretations of the AA program."

It said inter alia: "The Board recognises that AA is a program of
self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action - and that the use of study
guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not generally
appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic. There are no
authorities in AA and even a self-appointed 'teacher' has feet of clay. Hence,
it is preferable that the individual member or prospect interpret the literature
according to his/her own point of view."

0 -1 0 0
8343 trysh travis trysh travis 13th step as a spiritual level 13th step as a spiritual level 4/5/2012 9:43:00 AM

I'm following this thread with interest, as it seems particularly ironic
that what started out as the idea of a 13th Step as a higher spiritual
level would become the slang term for sexualized bad behavior.

Is this mention in the 1947 Grapevine article on Clubs the earliest known
usage of 13th Step as a spiritual level? And following on that, what is our
earliest known example of the term being used the other way, as a term for
"hooking up" within the fellowship? Victor and Lil are described in *Dr.
Bob and the Good Oldtimers* as "writ[ing] the 13th step long before the
first 12 were ever thought of" (page 97), but are there other publications
(GSO published or regional) that use it earlier?

Trysh Travis

*Points: the Blog of the Alcohol and Drugs History Society*
http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com/

*The Language of the Heart: the Recovery Movement from AA to Oprah*
http://uncpress.unc.edu/books/T-8279.html

0 -1 0 0
8344 cometkazie1@cox.net cometkazie1@c... Irma Livoni Irma Livoni 4/5/2012 10:41:00 AM

I have heard the Irma Livoni story almost since I hit the doors of A.A.

However, I have never heard from a credible source what happened to her
after she was kicked out of A.A.

I would think her sponsor may have known or even done something to help
her.

Are there any citations besides "I heard it in a meeting" that shed some
light on her?

Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8345 cometkazie1@cox.net cometkazie1@c... Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/5/2012 10:58:00 AM

Is it the current official position of AA that "the use of
study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is ... not
generally appropriate"?


============
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Laurie Andrews wrote:
> The 2005 Holiday (Christmas) issue of Box 4-5-9, the AA General
> Service Office newsletter, gave an account of requests for advice
> about study guides from members and groups in the 1970s. AA World
> Services set up a committee to discuss the issue and in 1977 published
> a position paper entitled, "Big Book Study Guides and other
> interpretations of the AA program."
> It said inter alia: "The Board recognises that AA is a program of
> self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action - and that the use of
> study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not
> generally appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic.
> There are no authorities in AA and even a self-appointed 'teacher' has
> feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the individual member or
> prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own point of
> view."
============


I find this paragraph a bit puzzling given the history of A.A.

In our pioneering days, it was not at all uncommon for groups to have
formal training for newbies. Indeed, that was one of the requirements
for full membership before the Traditions were confirmed in 1950. The
Little Red Book sprang from the course outline of one of these
instruction programs and I find it very solid and use it myself.

There are many gurus who take their pony shows on the road. Joe and
Charly have been mentioned. There are more. Gurus apparently vie to do
workshops. Back to Basics is thought a lot of by some.

One of the dangers that I have heard mentioned since my beginning in
A.A. is to not interpret our program by yourself.

I would also question the self-diagnosis statement, but that is a
different issue.

Is the position outlined above the current position of A.A.?

Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8346 starshine1943 starshine1943 Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 4/5/2012 6:47:00 AM

The complete article for the reference begins on Page 46 in Language of the
Heart - an article on Clubs. As the originator of this question, I believe this
may be the reference I was remembering having read.

However, I have now found another reference to the 1955 International
Convention. GSO says they do not have the transcript of Bill's remarks there
and suggested we check with Stepping Stones, which we are doing.

0 -1 0 0
8347 Bill Lash Bill Lash Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted 4/4/2012 5:41:00 PM

From Bill Lash and Shakey Mike

- - - -

From: Bill Lash barefootbill@optonline.net>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Dr. Bob's Home in Akron continues on, despite conviction of former
operations manager

Published: Tuesday, April 03, 2012, 7:00 PM Updated: Wednesday, April 04, 2012,
1:09 AM

By http://connect.cleveland.com/user/jcaniglia/index.html> John Caniglia, The
Plain Dealer

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dr_bobs_home_continues_on_desp.\
html



AKRON, Ohio - The iconic home on Ardmore Avenue will continue to educate
visitors and honor the legacy of Dr. Robert Smith, the co-founder of Alcoholics
Anonymous.

What appears somewhat less known is the fleecing of the nonprofit that
operates the home.

Raymond Collins, 48, of Akron was sentenced to two years' probation in
January after he pleaded guilty to a charge of grand theft in Summit County
Common Pleas Court. Collins, who oversaw the nonprofit's books, took $52,872
from February 2009 through July 2011, Akron police said. He was ordered to make
restitution.

A police report said Collins used a Dr. Bob's Home bank card "beyond the
intended use by purchasing personal items and making large ATM withdrawals."

In public filings with the IRS, Dr. Bob's Home said it had assets of $497,295 at
the end of 2010, the most recent year available.

Attempts to reach Collins were unsuccessful. His attorney, Donald Hicks,
declined to comment.

Harmon Velie, who is listed as the chairman of the Dr. Bob's Home board, called
Collins' actions "an internal matter." He said Collins was dismissed "because of
the misappropriation of funds." He declined to discuss the issue further.

The nonprofit maintains and operates the home at 855 Ardmore, which serves as a
resource to teach guests of AA's beginnings in Akron and serves as an
inspirational setting for AA members around the world, according to the
nonprofit's public filings with IRS.

It is listed as the "birthplace of Alcoholics Anonymous" by the National
Register of Historic Places.

It is where Smith lived from 1915 to 1950, according to the group's web site.
While in Akron, Smith met Bill Wilson, a New York businessman, who, like Smith,
struggled with alcoholism. They worked with others and wrote the book,
"Alcoholics Anonymous," in 1939.

Collins has never been in trouble before, according to court records. It is
unclear what Collins did with the funds, but records suggest he had struggled
financially. The Akron Beacon Journal reported in 2002 that one of Collins'
children had serious medical problems.

Federal court documents show he filed for bankruptcy in 2006, citing liabilities
of $176,000 and assets of $109,000. Records indicate that he worked at Dr. Bob's
Home for about 18 months, beginning about early 2009.

In a March 2011 story about Dr. Bob's Home, the Beacon Journal interviewed
Collins and Velie about the home's repairs. The group bought it in the
mid-1980s. Collins told the newspaper that people come to the house from around
the world to look around and learn.

"It happens all the time," the paper quoted Collins. Visitors walk in, and "they
just break out in tears."

He told the paper about two visitors who stopped on their way from Mexico City
to New York City. Once they walked in the door, they "dropped to their knees and
started praying," the paper quoted Collins.

Plain Dealer news researcher Jo Ellen Corrigan contributed to this story.

- - - -

From: "Shakey Mike" Shakey1aa@aol.com> (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Dear AAHistoryLovers:

A visitor to our site who reported his/her email address as shakey1aa@aol.com
thought you would be interested in this item from Cleveland.com

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/dr_bobs_home_continues_on_desp.\
html


Shakey Mike
I saw this article about Dr Bob's House. It discusses our History.
The unfortunate part of this story is that it casts an unfavorable response, by
those"normals" who read it, that alcoholics are dishonest. On the other hand why
would the non proffit need with almost 500,000 dollars? Does any one know if
there is a plan to spend the funds to buy another historic home in Akron(like T
henry's house) or do they need that much money to make repairs on the two
properties owned?

0 -1 0 0
8348 Dolores Dolores Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 4/5/2012 2:00:00 PM

Hi, Am sorry, it was Mercedes McCambridge who broke her anonymity before
Congress in 1970 and who had traveled to Bad Cannstadt, to visit the treatment
center there. Dolores


----- Original Message -----
From: Sally Brown
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012
Subject: Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service

Hi, Dolores - Dave and I hadn't heard about Marty Mann's connection with these
military treatment centers, and would love to learn whatever you find out. In
addition, even though I retired recently as a 20-year staff chaplain at the Palo
Alto VA (Veterans Affairs Health Care System), I will always have a deep
interest in anything involving health treatment of our military, be they active
or vets.

Thanks very much. Sally

0 -1 0 0
8349 Glenn Chesnut Glenn Chesnut Re: An approach to alcoholism in the military service An approach to alcoholism in the military service 4/5/2012 2:38:00 PM

Dolores,

With apologies, I only bring this up because there is so much confusion about
this among some of our younger people, and this confusion has begun to do harm
to the fellowship and its proper aims. Both the Twelve Steps and the Twelve
Traditions are interpreted in AA according to the great underlying principle of
ENGLISH COMMON LAW: the interpretation of a law is NOT determined by nit picking
at what some particular phrase in the law COULD be twisted into saying by the
clever use of logic. It is based mainly on PRECEDENT -- that is, on how earlier
generations actually applied the law in practice.

Put in simple Anglo-Saxon, "if our grandfathers and grandmothers did it that
way, then it's perfectly legitimate for us to do it that way."

Let me give an example from AA history, so you can see how this principle has
regularly been applied in AA: Logically, you could argue that the third step
requires all AA members to use the word "God" whenever they speak, even if they
disagree on some of the traditional theological points about God, and you could
certainly argue (logically) that atheists absolutely couldn't be permitted in
the fellowship. But from the traditional practice of the good oldtimers we know
that open atheists were allowed to be AA members from the very beginning. And so
we have to continue to accept them now. As you well know, a good deal of
European AA would be wiped out, if we didn't follow that precedent and continue
to accept atheists into AA with open arms and cries of joy.

That's why I'm raising this question, again with apologies, but it is an
important question.

In Message #8348 you referred to "Mercedes McCambridge who broke her anonymity
before Congress in 1970."

Are you sure about that? Did she "break her anonymity"? Have you checked the
full transcript of her testimony before the Senate committee? Have you at least
checked Nancy Olson's book "With a Lot of Help from Our Friends"? She records a
lot of the Senate testimony in one part of that book.

===============================
Nancy Olson's rather long book is now available as a Kindle e-book
for $3.99 from Amazon, if you have hitherto been put off by the price:
http://www.amazon.com/With-Lot-Help-Our-Friends/dp/0595270379
===============================

Nancy Olson (who later founded the AAHistoryLovers) was the one who was
coordinating and vetting all the people who testified before that particular
U.S. Senate committee, and she was being extremely careful to school them in
advance about what they could and could not say without breaking AA rules.

The important distinction is that you are not "breaking your anonymity" (in the
sense of the Twelve Traditions) if you acknowledge in public that you are an
alcoholic. It's O.K. to say that you are a "recovered alcoholic" (the
phraseology which Nancy and Marti Mann preferred in public settings) and it is
O.K. to say that you are a "recovering alcoholic" -- as long as you don't
mention that you are an AA member.

But as long as you are alive, you break the anonymity rule in the Twelve
Traditions if you say in public (or write in the public media) that you are an
AA member (and you also reveal your last name or allow your face to be
photographed).

That is the old AA tradition, the way it was practiced by a large number of the
good oldtimers. Betty Ford (April 8, 1918 - July 8, 2011, President Ford's wife)
followed that practice, and the AA good oldtimers of that era praised her. She
publicly admitted to being a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, but never
mentioned her membership in AA.

But Father Ralph Pfau and Lillian Roth both got Bill Wilson very angry at them
when they revealed in the public media that they were members of AA -- that was
because they talked about their AA membership, and gave their full names (and in
Pfau's case, numerous full face photographs accompanying his autobiography in
Look magazine).

That's the crucial distinction. If Mercedes McCambridge told the Senate
committee about her alcoholism (which she did), that was O.K. But if she talked
about being an AA member, then she was "breaking her anonymity" and violating
the Twelve Traditions.

And I can't remember now whether she did or didn't. But Nancy never said there
were any problems in her case.

Glenn C.

P.S. There is fine point here that maybe needs discussing in a bit more detail.
You could in fact testify before that U.S. Senate committee and reveal the fact
that you were an A.A. member, is long as you did not give your last name, and
did not allow the newspaper photographers or television cameras to show your
face. That is what Nancy set up when Bill Wilson testified before the committee.
The television cameras were only allowed to show the back of his head. There was
one U.S. Navy officer where they also made sure that the TV cameras only showed
him from the back. (Although Nancy, very clever woman, made sure that he was
asked to raise his hand at one point, so the cameras could show all his gold
braid glistening in the TV lights!).

But if I remember correctly, the whole point of having Mercedes McCambridge
testify lay in having the public know who she was, so my assumption is that
Nancy must have lectured Mercedes very stiffly about not revealing her AA
membership. When Nancy was in that kind of mood, she tended to sign her memos
"Nancy Rex" (as in Tyrannosaurus Rex).

0 -1 0 0
8350 Dolores Dolores Re: alcoholism in the military service -- Mercedes McCambridge alcoholism in the military service -- Mercedes McCambridge 4/7/2012 2:36:00 PM

[With reference to Mercedes McCambridge's testimony before the U.S. Senate
committee on alcoholism, during the period when Senator Harold Hughes, Nancy
Olson, Mrs. Marty Mann, and other AA members were working to get the Hughes Act
passed by the U.S. Congress and then enabled by receiving the funds necessary to
implement it.]

From Dolores:

Greetings, I have this statement from Mercedes on an old tape. She is
speaking to a group of people, it is a very cold day, and she relates how her
mother and relatives reacted to what she did. Senator Hughes asked her to do
what she did and she did comply. I would have not stated this so openly if I
didn't have it on an old tape. An AA member gave me the tape many years ago.

Dear Glenn, I want to thank you for the clear explanation of saying I am an
alcoholic in conjunction with AA. I remember Mercedes saying when she was asked
to share-testify in Congress, that all lights went on, and the reporters were
there taking her picture. I was very moved by her tape.

You know the chaplains and the medics were influential in helping the military
AAs to hold meetings on the bases here in Germany. After the Act of Congress, it
was often difficult for the AA members to share in meetings because of the "3rd
party."

My "problem" right now is about putting the CER history on the Website here in
Continental Europe. Our Region said no names because of another mishap some
years ago. I believe that it is a policy to put first names and the first
initial of the last name in histories. Most of the names mentioned in the
history have passed away. But I decided not to put the history on our website.

Dolores

0 -1 0 0
8351 pmds@aol.com pmds@a... Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/5/2012 11:27:00 AM

From pmds, Baileygc, Laurie Andrews, Charlie Parker, M.J. Johnson,
bent_christensen, Jon Markle, John Barton, Tim T. (pvttimt), and Tommy Hickcox

- - - -

From: "Charlie Parker" charlieparker@prodigy.net>
(charlieparker at prodigy.net)

I'm curious who was on this board and how subjective their opinions were.

"The Board recognises that AA is a program of self-diagnosis, self-motivation
and self action" sounds dangerous for a person that has also acknowledged that
selfishness and self-centeredness is the root of their problem. There are lots
of assumptions in their position that make me curious.

Who says that spiritual and academic are mutually exclusive? Who determines if a
teacher is "self appointed"? And finally , if we have to exclude input from
those who have "feet of clay" we might as well throw the whole Big Book away.
"We are not saints" was an understatement and an accurate appraisal of our
founders.

I had never seen this opinion from AAWS but it doesn't shock me. I don't think
that we will ever publish an official study guide but I am in full support of
people studying our literature whether they are in a group or alone (with and
without guides, forms, and teachers).

This has been going on for a long time around our fellowship by many folks that
I have deep respect for.

Respectfully, Charlie P. 3-22-1985 Austin, Tx

- - - -

From: "M.J. Johnson" threeeyedtoad@gmail.com>
(threeeyedtoad at gmail.com)

No - the conclusion that A.A. opposes the use of study guides is based on the
partial quote included below from the December 2005 Box 4-5-9 article. The
article continues:

Of course, while Alcoholics Anonymous has declined to participate in the
production of interpretive material, it does not oppose their publication or
their use by A.A. members. Many members get in touch with the General Service
Office, asking whether they can use study guides. A letter written in 1985 by
Bob P., then general manager of G.S.O., is typical of the replies to such
inquiries: "I don’t see that the use of this material by your group would be
contrary to either the letter or the spirit of the Twelve Traditions .... And if
[your group] wish to use mimeographed guides or forms to help the study of the
book, neither the Board nor this office either endorse or oppose such
materials." Bob went on to explain the position of the A.A.W.S. Board, and
enclosed the 1977 position paper as background.

The issue of Box 4-5-9 that includes this article is available online
(beginning on page 7). See:

http://www.aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/en_box459_holiday05-06.pdf

(The full text of this Box 459 article is also given in AAHistoryLovers Message
#8352.)

- - - -

From: "Bent" bent_christensen5@yahoo.com>
(bent_christensen5 at yahoo.com)

It seems to me that the board with the statement

"The Board recognizes (...) that the use of study guides, courses, classes or
interpretations is therefore not generally appropriate" is on collision course
in relation to Dr. Bob and AA in Akron who made the pamphlet

"A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous"
http://hindsfoot.org/akr12.html

and the early AAs who made beginners lessons entitled

"Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps"
http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html

and the work of many a sponsor throughout the world.

But it may be due to my lack of skills in the English language...

Best wishes
Bent

- - - -

From: Jon Markle jon.markle@mac.com>
(jon.markle at mac.com)

Since the "Big Book", Alcoholics Anonymous, is often referred to as our "text
book", I find no difficulty with study guides.

After all, our Book was written by men (and I suppose a few women), is
considered a "guide" in and of itself.

Nothing could be more ridiculous (to me) than to ban or declare "inappropriate",
any Big Book or Step Study guides, often written by members with much more
sobriety and recovery than the authors of the original guides to recovery.

And since that "other" Book of spiritual direction is often studied in many
ways, with guides of various methods, in educational settings, resulting in
higher degrees, I can see no reason that OUR literature should be any more
special than that . . . for drunks!

A study guide is just that. It is used to enhance and structure the study for
drunks who are otherwise mostly unstructured.

Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling
Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S
HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation
Raleigh, NC

[My *opinions* & observations are my own, obviously. . They do not
necessarily reflect upon any agency in which I have been employed. Please do not
alter, copy, duplicate, refer to or otherwise use this communication for any
publication -- e-mail, paper, book, electronic, or digital medium -- for any
reason, in whole or in part, without my written permission. Thank you.

(FYI: DOS 9.9.82)]

- - - -

From: John Barton jax760@yahoo.com>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Might be nice if these people in NY - aka "AAWS Committee" (do they speak for AA
as a whole) looked at the history. Perhaps if they read the Grapevines from the
40s and 50s they can see how well the Beginner's Classes and Step Studies were
received. Like Bill L, I too owe a great deal to Joe and Charlie who made the
Big Book Come Alive for me. In our neck of the woods the classes and workshops
are well received and well attended. Newcomers here in NJ continuously ask for
the handouts and study guides. So actual experience does not verify any wisdom
or "truth" in the AAWS "proclamation."

"Together we can do something I could not do alone."

P.S. In the early days of course a typical response from Bobbie Burger on behalf
of Bill and the NY Office may have read something like this:

The Central Office has no opinion on these matters. If the guides or
publications meet the needs of the local membership then they can certainly be
used. Keep your eye on those Twelve Steps and you can't possibly fail.

In those days there was a little more humility at play in NY. (I have seen
numerous letters from Bobbie to members/groups along these exact lines with
similar issues related to program or fellowship)

Since when does anybody (let alone an "AAWS committee")speak for AA as whole?
Perhaps the collective conscience of the conference is the nearest that any
group or body can come to being the voice of AA.

I was disheartened to see that a "position paper" from 1977 where NY (with all
humility) was issued when they might have taken no position and suggested that
each person determine for themselves whether or not study guides are helpful to
them. I would certainly hope and pray that there is no official "AA position" on
this or any other matter relating to groups and how thet conduct there affairs
other than the 36 principles which have been previously published.

"self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action" and these apply how to "the
real alcoholic"?

"If a mere code of morals, or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to
overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that
such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried."

God Bless,

Sorry for venting!

"By their fruits you will know them"

- - - -

From: pvttimt@aol.com (pvttimt at aol.com)

During my 34+ years in the AA fellowship, I've encountered some of the more
extreme versions of "study guides, courses, classes or interpretations." Often,
the adherents to these extreme versions claim that their approach is "More
Original" with respect to early AA, and is therefore more authentic and more
effective.

Examples:

1. The Strike Them Sober approach. Years ago in Denver, where I sobered up, a
group calling themselves AA's arrived and set up shop at one of the clubs. They
claimed that "originally" new people were taken by some number of sober AA's and
"worked on" until they had a vital spiritual experience. Then and only then, it
was claimed, could someone have "real" sobriety. These folks would whisk
newcomers away, and work on them someplace until the prospect had some sort of
emotional experience. The newly sobered individual would then be brought back to
the club as an example of the effectiveness of their method.

2. The Manuscript approach. In Phoenix where I lived for some time, some AA's
obtained a photocopy of an "original" manuscript, complete with annotations in
the margins, etc. Their claim was that since the manuscript was "more original"
than the Big Book itself, that centering a meeting around the manuscript and its
annotations would be superior to "regular" AA, more authentic, and more
effective. They started a meeting based on special study of the differences
between the manuscript and the First Edition of the Big Book.

Rumors of other such approaches have reached me over the years.

The commonality among these is the claim of superiority of the "special"
approach. In speaking to folks involved in these operations, they often suggest
that "regular" AA is betraying new people with a pale imitation of the "real" AA
program, which is of course their "more original" way. And that, if only
everyone would listen to them, that AA could save many, many more alkies. I've
even heard the occasional adherent claim that "regular" AA is "killing drunks"
through its unauthentic, less effective mode.

And, of course, the special approaches all come with abundant literature and
adherents, all witnessing to the obvious superiority of their leaders and their
methods. Their literature often selects various passages from historically
authentic AA writings, and fashions it into a unique perspective on recovery.

Interestingly, these sects often focus on a particular personality, often a
charismatic individual, who is, or was, the one who had the original inspiration
that serves as the guiding doctrine.

Clearly, this sort of thing has been ever-present in AA, as the controversy that
existed between Clarence and Bill shows. I suppose that we will always continue
to have phenomena like this in our fellowship. AA is not a religion, but our
recovery is certainly based on attaining something of a spiritual nature. This
being the case, I imagine that we have to expect some of the usual divisions
that have occurred over the millennia in religions.

For myself, our mainline literature suffices. My personal experience tells me
that even though I work with a sponsor, I will get a slightly different
experience from the Big Book and 12x12 than he did; after all, I'm a different
person. The two of us working together with our literature as a guide, need no
self-appointed authorities to interpret the literature and history of AA for us.
If my sponsor has what I want, I'm likely to do what he did, to get what he got.

Finally, when a particular AA tells me that he or she is better than the rest of
us, my skepticism arises. And perhaps, most of all, I'm drawn to the First
Tradition, the "Unity Tradition" and to the Twelfth Tradition's "Principles
before Personalities."

Cheers,
Tim T.

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

Is it AA's current position? Well, it certainly seemed to be in 2005. Time for a
Conference question?

Of course AA neither endorses nor opposes these outside issues; some members
find such courses helpful, others believe they endanger the Fellowship's unity
by sowing dissension between those who practice such extra-mural activities and
those who don't.

Tradition Three and the Preamble tell us the only requirement for AA membership
is a desire to stop drinking (or to stay stopped); there is no requirement on
anyone to even read the Big Book, let alone to study it, or to be taken through
the program by a sponsor.

PS: BTW Bill W. wrote that, "Every AA has the privilege of interpreting the
program as he likes ..." (As Bill Sees It, page 16)

- - - -

From: pmds@aol.com (pmds at aol.com)

Tommy Hickcox asked, "Is it the current official position of AA that 'the use of
study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is ... not generally
appropriate'?"

I would certainly hope so

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@aol.com (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

No matter how AA says it, people want to put themselves up as anointed by
sponsors, or qualified to teach others what AA is about, but AA says there is no
dogma.


______________________________________________

ORIGINAL MESSAGE FROM TOMMY HICKCOX AND LAURIE ANDREWS:

From: cometkazie1@cox.net
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012
Subject: Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout

Is it the current official position of AA that "the use of study guides,
courses, classes or interpretations is ... not generally appropriate"?

============
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Laurie Andrews wrote:
> The 2005 Holiday (Christmas) issue of Box 4-5-9, the AA General
> Service Office newsletter, gave an account of requests for advice
> about study guides from members and groups in the 1970s. AA World
> Services set up a committee to discuss the issue and in 1977 published
> a position paper entitled, "Big Book Study Guides and other
> interpretations of the AA program."
> It said inter alia: "The Board recognises that AA is a program of
> self-diagnosis, self-motivation and self action - and that the use of
> study guides, courses, classes or interpretations is therefore not
> generally appropriate. The program is spiritual rather than academic.
> There are no authorities in AA and even a self-appointed 'teacher' has
> feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the individual member or
> prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own point of
> view."
============

I find this paragraph a bit puzzling given the history of A.A.

In our pioneering days, it was not at all uncommon for groups to have
formal training for newbies. Indeed, that was one of the requirements
for full membership before the Traditions were confirmed in 1950. The
Little Red Book sprang from the course outline of one of these
instruction programs and I find it very solid and use it myself.

There are many gurus who take their pony shows on the road. Joe and Charly have
been mentioned. There are more. Gurus apparently vie to do workshops. Back to
Basics is thought a lot of by some.

One of the dangers that I have heard mentioned since my beginning in A.A. is to
not interpret our program by yourself.

I would also question the self-diagnosis statement, but that is a different
issue.

Is the position outlined above the current position of A.A.?

Tommy H in Danville

0 -1 0 0
8352 M.J. Johnson M.J. Johnson Position paper on Big Book Study Guides -- Box 459 Position paper on Big Book Study Guides -- Box 459 4/9/2012 5:54:00 PM

Box 459: News and Notes from the General Service Office of A.A., Vol. 51, No. 6
(2005), p. 7-8.

Big Book Study Guides:
Reviewing a Position Paper

Sober alcoholics are notorious for refusing to be told what to do, say, or
think. The Steps are "suggested," and experienced sponsors are wise enough not
to give newcomers hard and fast directives. Yet paradoxically, a surprising
number of members seek out and rely on study guides when they begin delving into
A.A. literature. A variety of such guides are available, published by non-A.A.
entities. While the General Service Board neither endorses nor opposes these
publications, we have historically declined to produce any kind of interpretive
material ourselves, choosing instead to let our literature stand on its own.

In 1977, faced with a rising number of requests from non-A.A. sources and some
A.A. members to reprint portions of the Big Book and other material in study
guides, the directors of A.A. World Services, Inc. took a hard look at the
subject and appointed a committee to explore the question. Members of the
committee unanimously recommended that the board not grant permission to outside
entities to use excerpts from our literature in study guides, and that A.A.
itself should not publish study guides.

The resulting paper, "Big Book Study Guides and Other Interpretations of the
A.A. Program: A Position Paper," begins with thoughts of several of the
directors who made up the committee. For example, one director wrote: "Part of
the beauty and magic of A.A. is that persons from all walks of life with varied
backgrounds may benefit from the Big Book, the Steps, the Traditions, the
Concepts, from their own points of view. Placing guidelines on paper seems to
say, 'This is the way -- the only way.'

"The thrust of our literature, our program, the Steps, the groups, and the
meetings are all designed, and effectively so, to facilitate self-diagnosis and
self-action within the A.A. environment. I see our literature, particularly the
books, as being study guides. It’s all there .... I almost have the feeling that
the words are living, changing, growing. I know this isn’t so as they are the
same and only I change and grow. But this phenomenon takes place because the
words are the words; they are unlayered, uninterpreted, standing on their own.
One of our slogans is ‘Keep it Simple.’ I believe our books are just simple
enough to stand as they are and just complex enough to live and grow.

"I understand our program to be a spiritual program. I know it has been and is
for me. However, I don’t believe any amount of study with or without
interpretive guides could have given me this. The words were part of it, but the
interaction with other A.A.s at meetings and in face to face discussion is what
really got me into action. Knowing what I should do has been less of a problem
than having the faith to undertake the first quivering right actions. Exposure
to living testament, not written words, provides the spark of faith that results
finally in determined action. I would be sorely troubled to think that we
believed that this would be better packaged than it already is. I think it would
be very unwise to tamper with a delicate balance that seems to be working as
they say, ‘just fine,’ for alcoholics who want it."

Another director felt this way: "My knowledge of recovery has been received in
the Fellowship through the experience of one drunk sharing with another drunk
and it was not received on an instructive basis or in a classroom atmosphere. I
believe that we in A.A. communicate with each other in a language of the heart,
and this type of communication would be extremely difficult with the use of
study guides ....

"Finally, Tradition Two tells me we have but one ultimate authority -- a loving
God as he expresses himself in our group conscience. It seems to me if we allow
interpretations of the Big Book through study guides, we will also undermine our
ultimate authority."

The final policy statement reads as follows: "The A.A. World Services Board of
Directors feels strongly that permission should not be granted to outside
publishers or other parties to reprint A.A. literature for the purpose of study
guides or interpretive or explanatory texts, etc. If such interpretive or study
guides are to be prepared, they should be published by A.A. World Services, Inc.

"The Board recognizes, however, that A.A. is a program of self-diagnosis,
self-motivation and self-action -- and that the use of study guides, courses,
classes or interpretations is therefore not generally appropriate. The program
is spiritual rather than academic. There are no authorities in A.A. and even a
self-appointed ‘teacher’ has feet of clay. Hence, it is preferable that the
individual member or prospect interpret the literature according to his/her own
point of view. For these reasons, the Board does not plan to publish study
guides or interpretations of A.A. literature at this time."

Of course, while Alcoholics Anonymous has declined to participate in the
production of interpretive material, it does not oppose their publication or
their use by A.A. members. Many members get in touch with the General Service
Office, asking whether they can use study guides. A letter written in 1985 by
Bob P., then general manager of G.S.O., is typical of the replies to such
inquiries: "I don’t see that the use of this material by your group would be
contrary to either the letter or the spirit of the Twelve Traditions .... And if
[your group] wish to use mimeographed guides or forms to help the study of the
book, neither the Board nor this office either endorse or oppose such
materials." Bob went on to explain the position of the A.A.W.S. Board, and
enclosed the 1977 position paper as background.

0 -1 0 0
8353 B B Found: Lloyd Tate, AA#30, author of The Rolling Stone Found: Lloyd Tate, AA#30, author of The Rolling Stone 4/10/2012 2:25:00 PM

Lloyd T's story appeared in the first edition of the Big Book. Born 12 Nov 1888,
got sober in June of 37, out of Cleveland. Was 50 years old when he got sober.

Thanks to Ancestry.com (not a commercial), and the Cleveland Library System, I
found Lloyd's obit in Cleveland Necrology File. A further veteran's search
reveals that Lloyd is buried at Knollwood Cem and Mausoleum in Cleveland. Lot:
S-Wing Ext, Crypt 659-C.

It is my research quest to find as many of the original members and other
influential people in our fellowship. I have info on other early members and
would welcome any information you guys have collected.

0 -1 0 0
8354 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews RE: Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted Manager at Dr. Bob's Home Convicted 4/5/2012 11:57:00 AM

From Laurie Andrews and Brian Koch

- - - -

From: Laurie Andrews jennylaurie1@hotmail.com>
(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)

That high-pitched whine you hear is Dr Bob spinning ...
How canny Rockefeller was to keep AA poor!
Laurie A.

- - - -

From: brian koch kochbrian@hotmail.com>
(kochbrian at hotmail.com)

As an aside, I have been thoroughly disappointed to have called Dr. Bobs house
three separate times, to inquire about information or archival information, and
have never received a call back. two messages left on the phone, one left with a
person.

0 -1 0 0
8355 WENDI TURNER WENDI TURNER Bill W. home movie Bill W. home movie 4/9/2012 6:31:00 PM

This is amazing ...

This is a very rare film of Bill and Lois at Stepping Stones telling their
story.

http://youtu.be/Mrb1gd0oFTg

0 -1 0 0
8356 Norm The Tinman Norm The Tinman Re: information on Akron AA history and archives information on Akron AA history and archives 4/10/2012 5:02:00 PM

If I was trying to get info pertaining to anything in Akron, I'd call central
office and ask -- I know there's a volunteer Archivist there a lot of the time
-- Norm

_____________________________________________

Original message from brian koch
kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com)

As an aside, I have been thoroughly disappointed to have called Dr. Bobs house
three separate times, to inquire about information or archival information, and
have never received a call back. two messages left on the phone, one left with a
person.

0 -1 0 0
8357 dave landuyt dave landuyt Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred 4/8/2012 1:45:00 PM

Mr. Barton,

You made mention of "Merton's notes" in your latest AAHL discussing the Names of
the First One Hundred. Is this the Merton who was writing "Black Sheep"? I'd
like to read these if possible.

Thank You,
Dave Landuyt


________________________________
From: jax760 jax760@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012
Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred

Although Burwell is listed for NY he actually bounced around. Both before and
after his relapse in mid 1938 he was living with the Parkurst's in Upper
Montclair, NJ which is where he first met Bill according to Merton's notes.

0 -1 0 0
8358 Jim Robbins Jim Robbins Re: 13th Step as a spiritual level 13th Step as a spiritual level 4/5/2012 12:33:00 PM

Language of the Heart, page 46, second paragraph in the article of AA Clubs,
reproduces paragraph 2 on "Clubs in AA" by Bill W. in the April 1947 AA
Grapevine.

0 -1 0 0
8359 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews Re: Joe and Charley's third step handout Joe and Charley's third step handout 4/10/2012 6:23:00 AM

"The Big Book (BB) is often referred to as our 'text book'" (Jon Markle).

Mistakenly so. It is our basic text (dust cover), which is quite different. A
text is neutral; it gives information - e.g. an advertisement, or railway
timetable. A text book gives instructions; it tells you what to do.

The BB says, "If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already
be asking - "What do I have to do?" It is the purpose of this book to answer
such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done." (emphasis
added). NB not - what you have to do. The word instructions does not appear in
the first 164 pp of the Big Book. There are only suggestions, guidance and
directions. A sign post also gives directions, not instructions; but it can't
force anyone to take them. In fact, the BB is a story book. It says so on the
title page: "Alcoholics Anonymous: The story of how many thousands of men and
women have recovered from alcoholism."
We are not book burners. The BB says, "God will constantly reveal more to you
and to us...", and "There are many helpful books also..." But can a group that
requires members to study the BB call itself an AA group?

"The Book that started it all: the original working manuscript of Alcoholics
Anonymous" (Hazelden, 2010) records instances where the pioneers changed
prescriptive language in the manuscript to descriptive. For example, one
marginal annotation says, "We have said constantly the trouble with (religion)
is that they try to dogmatically pour people into moulds. So why should we give
specific instructions in the book such as saying do this and do that?" (page
192). And, "... it is clear from the descriptions of AA's earliest contributors,
as when Ebby Thatcher visited Bill Wilson in November of 1934 or in Bill and
Bob's epic meeting six months later, that neither Ebby nor Bill had any agenda
beyond honestly sharing their experience. Many alcoholics are oversensitive to
even a hint of being controlled ... 'But he did no ranting' is a powerful moment
in Bill's story ... Similarly, Dr Bob's experience shifted when Bill made it
clear that he wasn't there to help him. He was there to help himself." (Original
emphasis).

"There are few absolutes inherent in the 12 Steps. Most Steps are open to
interpretation, based on the experience and outlook of the individual."
(Emphasis added: As Bill Sees It, page 191).

_______________________________________________

Original message from: Jon Markle jon.markle@mac.com>
(jon.markle at mac.com)

Since the "Big Book", Alcoholics Anonymous, is often referred to as our "text
book", I find no difficulty with study guides.

After all, our Book was written by men (and I suppose a few women), is
considered a "guide" in and of itself.

Nothing could be more ridiculous (to me) than to ban or declare "inappropriate",
any Big Book or Step Study guides, often written by members with much more
sobriety and recovery than the authors of the original guides to recovery.

And since that "other" Book of spiritual direction is often studied in many
ways, with guides of various methods, in educational settings, resulting in
higher degrees, I can see no reason that OUR literature should be any more
special than that . . . for drunks!

A study guide is just that. It is used to enhance and structure the study for
drunks who are otherwise mostly unstructured.

Jon Markle, BA Sacred Studies/MA Agency Counseling
Retired Therapist & SA Counseling
Specialty: Dual Diagnosis/SPMI/COD & DBT-S
HS Practitioner, Advisor & Case Consultation
Raleigh, NC

[My *opinions* & observations are my own, obviously. . They do not
necessarily reflect upon any agency in which I have been employed. Please do not
alter, copy, duplicate, refer to or otherwise use this communication for any
publication -- e-mail, paper, book, electronic, or digital medium -- for any
reason, in whole or in part, without my written permission. Thank you.

(FYI: DOS 9.9.82)]

0 -1 0 0
8360 Jenny or Laurie Andrews Jenny or Laurie Andrews Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA 4/7/2012 10:33:00 AM

Alan Wilson, bishop of Buckingham, quoted in the Guardian newspaper (7 April
2012):

"Locally, the Church of England is often good news. Individual clergy and
Christians are often liked and respected on the streets. The figure of Jesus
remains broadly attractive, even intriguing and sometimes compelling. But the
national institution appears disconnected from all this, remote, hierarchical,
fixated on its own stuff. The church of the future may be less a civil service
or conventional business, and more a movement like Alcoholics Anonymous, the
ultimate locally delivered, life-changing non-profit organisation. The job of
the hierarchy will be to enable this, not to represent it or control it."

0 -1 0 0
8361 sflower1290 sflower1290 When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? 4/11/2012 10:43:00 PM

Admittedly, I've only been in this a little over 21 years - but almost every
recovery token I've ever received has had "to thine own self be true" around its
circumference. I've done a search through the Big Book (Doctor's Opinion, the
next 164, and the appendices) and I don't find it there, nor in the searchable
versions of the 12 & 12 that I have.

So when a friend asked me, "Where did it come from?" my best shot was to ask my
best resource here on AAHL. We both would appreciate anything you can share.

- - - -

FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR:

I did a search for that phrase in our back AAHL messages, using the little box
at the top on our Message Board:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/messages

This is the first step to take whenever we're trying to track down info on
things like this. Doing that, I discovered a reference to the July 1947
Grapevine:

Message #1550
Grapevine, July '47
The Clip Sheet: Excerpts from the Public Press

Wilmington, Del., "News": "'To thine own self be true, and it must follow, as
night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man,' was the quotation used
by a speaker and member of A.A. when he addressed an open meeting of more than
300 persons here last night. The speaker, a resident of Massachusetts, alighted
from a train here when he heard of the local group's meeting and attended as a
spectator. However, he was requested to speak when a speaker scheduled was
unable to attend. The theme of his talk, 'Honesty with One's Self,' was brought
out when he said, 'Sincerity means the difference between those who accomplish
their aims in A.A. and those who don't.'"

And another AAHL message pointed out, for those who did not already know this,
that the phrase was a quote from Shakespeare:

Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 78–80
Polonius:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."

But remember, Polonius was a self-serving old palace politician, and what he
meant by this in that passage from Hamlet was that being "a man of truth" meant
looking out for yourself first at the materialistic level. If you did that, then
technically speaking, you were still being "a man of truth" even if you were
lying to everybody else around you -- and cheating and manipulating and conning
them all the time -- as long as you were doing it in the pursuit of your own
TRUE selfish material self-interest.

So it's best to soft pedal the Shakespearean reference, and think instead about
the truly unselfish and totally honest good old timer who gave you that coin --
that was the man or woman who understood what that phrase was truly supposed to
mean. As the Akron good old timer Ernie Gerig said to young Larry W. (the man
who first introduced me to the AA program), "Larry, you don't ever have to
betray yourself again." That's what "to thine own self be true" means to us AA
folks, not what Polonius was saying it meant.

0 -1 0 0
8362 Jayaa82@earthlink.net Jayaa82@e... Re: information on Akron AA history and archives information on Akron AA history and archives 4/10/2012 5:49:00 PM

The Akron Archives has several members of the committee. They will get back to
you. The best time to reach the archivist is Saturdays.

0 -1 0 0
8363 Bill Lash Bill Lash Dr. Bob's House Manager Convicted (2nd Article) Dr. Bob's House Manager Convicted (2nd Article) 4/12/2012 8:06:00 AM

Second article about Dr. Bob's House Manager Conviction:

http://www.ohio.com/news/local/operations-manager-of-dr-bob-s-home-pleads-guilty\
-to-grand-theft-1.291761


Operations manager of Dr. Bob's Home pleads guilty to grand theft
By Ed Meyer
Beacon Journal staff writer

Akron Beacon Journal Online
Thursday, April 12, 2012

The former operations manager of Dr. Bob's Home, an Akron landmark, has been
sentenced to two years of probation for stealing nearly $53,000 in a lengthy
series of transactions with the nonprofit group's bank credit card, authorities
said.

Raymond C. Collins Sr., 48, who was fired from his caretaker job last summer,
pleaded guilty in Summit County Common Pleas Court to one count of grand theft.

The illegal credit card transactions, according to Akron police records,
occurred over a 2'-year period, beginning in February 2009 and continuing
through July 20 of last year, when Collins was fired.

Akron Police Lt. Rick Edwards said investigators determined the theft involved a
total of $52,892.15

As part of the sentence, Common Pleas Judge Tammy O'Brien ordered Collins to
make restitution.

Under Ohio's new sentencing law, which went into effect Sept. 30 as a means to
reduce the overcrowded state prison population, the judge could not sentence
Collins to prison time because his crime was nonviolent and he had no previous
felony record.

The Ardmore Avenue home, named for Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Dr. Robert
Holbrook Smith, is a destination point for recovering alcoholics from around the
world.

It is noted as 'The Birthplace of Alcoholics Anonymous' in the National Register
of Historic Places, and it has been a museum in the Highland Square area of the
city since the mid-1980s when the nonprofit group bought it.

Group board members did not respond to phone messages seeking comment on the
criminal case.

April Wiesner, chief spokesperson for the Summit County Prosecutor's Office,
said board members discovered the illegal purchases and alerted Akron police.

In a statement to the credit card bank, board members said Collins used the
credit card for personal purchases, cash withdrawals, restaurant meals and for a
Lowe's account without the board's consent, Wiesner said.

In a plea deal finalized Jan. 12 in O'Brien's court, the judge agreed to a
prosecution request to dismiss one additional felony charge for misuse of a
credit card.

Wiesner said the home's board agreed to the resolution of the case.

Under O'Brien's sentencing order, Collins could be sent to prison for one year
if he violates terms of his probation or leaves the state without court
permission.

Ed Meyer can be reached at 330-996-3784 or at emeyer@thebeaconjournal.com

0 -1 0 0
8364 Arthur S Arthur S RE: Bill W. home movie Bill W. home movie 4/11/2012 9:26:00 AM

From Arthur S., Charles Knapp, Barefoot Bill, and starshine1943

- - - -

From: Arthur S arthur.s@live.com> (arthur.s at live.com)

The film can be purchased from GSO - It's item DV-04 in the AAWS Literature
Catalog.

- - - -

From: Charles Knapp cpknapp@yahoo.com>
(cpknapp at yahoo.com)

This isn't rare ........ you can buy the DVD from GSO. Item number DV-04, price
$15.

Charles from Wisconsin

- - - -

From: barefootbill@optonline.net
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

I'm sorry but there is nothing amazing about this video except that it is
illegal to post the full version of a copyrighted film on youtube. You can
easily buy the DVD from the AA General Service Office in NYC who also holds the
copyright.

Just love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

Original message from: "starshine1943"
adahl@cfl.rr.com> (adahl at cfl.rr.com)

This is a General Service Office video - and probably copyrighted.


_______________________________________

From: WENDI TURNER wenditurner@gmail.com>
(wenditurner at gmail.com)
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012
Subject: Bill W. home movie

This is amazing ... This is a very rare film of Bill and Lois at Stepping Stones
telling their story.

http://youtu.be/Mrb1gd0oFTg

0 -1 0 0
8365 B B Grave found: Harry W Latta, AA#16 Grave found: Harry W Latta, AA#16 4/11/2012 2:23:00 PM

Also have located Harry W Latta, AA#16, sobered in July of 36 out of Akron. He
is buried in Rose Hill Burial Park, Akron OH.

0 -1 0 0
8366 (Sender unknown) (Sender unknown) Grave found: Charles H. Simonson, AA#38 Grave found: Charles H. Simonson, AA#38 4/13/2012 1:28:00 PM

From: "B" kochbrian@hotmail.com> (kochbrian at hotmail.com)

Also located Charles H. Simonson, AA#38, Sobered in Sep of 37 also out of Akron.
He is buried at Methodist Cemetery, Salesville OH.

0 -1 0 0
8367 B B Found: Vermont memorial stone for Cebra Graves Found: Vermont memorial stone for Cebra Graves 4/13/2012 8:12:00 AM

Was able to located the memorial stone for Cebra Graves in Vermont. We know him
as one of the men who intervened in court on Ebby's behalf, leading Ebby to the
Oxford Group, and his sobriety. Consequently Ebby was able to reach out to an
old school friend by the name of William G. Wilson. Cebra's father was actually
the judge, probably making it easier to secure the relief.

Cebra is actually buried in Urrogne France, but there is a memorial stone
located in Bennington (VT) Village Cemetery. Born 26 Aug 1899, Died 1 Jan 1979,
Cebra supposedly joined AA later in life while living in France.

A wonderful woman in Bennington who is the source for the info emailed me a map
of the cemetery. On his stone is the inscription "Here long ago for me, Eternity
was born" If you want a copy of the map, just message me:

kochbrian@hotmail.com>
(kochbrian at hotmail.com)

The quest continues. Oh yes, and his middle name was Quackenbush. Nice!!

0 -1 0 0
8368 Steve Flower Steve Flower Re: When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? When did *To thine own self be true* enter the recovery canon? 4/12/2012 12:24:00 PM

From Steve Flower and stalban

- - - -

Steve Flower steve1290@gmail.com>
(steve1290 at gmail.com)

Glenn, I saw that reference too ... but one reference in 65 years doesn't
explain the larger impact that the phrase has had in the recovery community. For
a phrase that seems to come up regularly in meetings, is frequently (if not
almost always) on recovery tokens....it seemed like there should be more history
to this than that.

I've always understood it in the character of "if I don't take care of me, I
will have nothing to give to anyone else" or "I can't give away what I have not
received," to focus on the out-of-self facet of a seemingly self-centered
phrase.

Just curious if anyone else knew of when it became more of a "mainstream"
concept in our fellowship.

- - - -

From: stalban2001 stalban2001@yahoo.com>
(stalban2001 at yahoo.com)

Adapted from eNotes: Shakespeare Quotes
http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/thine-own-self-true

"To thine own self be true" is Polonius's last piece of advice to his son
Laertes, who is in a hurry to get on the next boat to Paris, where he'll be safe
from his father's long-winded speeches. The other famous bit from this passage
is "neither a borrower nor a lender be."

Polonius has in mind something much more Elizabethan than the self-knowledge and
sense of integrity that the phrase now suggests -- and which is undoubtedly the
intended meaning on those medallions.

As Polonius sees it, borrowing money, loaning money, carousing with women of
dubious character, and other intemperate pursuits are "false" to the self. By
"false" Polonius seems to mean "disadvantageous" or "detrimental to your image";
by "true" he means "loyal to your own best interests." Take care of yourself
first, he counsels, and that way you'll be in a position to take care of others.

There is a certain kind of wisdom in the old man's warnings, of course; but he
repeats orthodox platitudes with unwonted self-satisfaction. Polonius, who is
deeply impressed with his own wordliness, has perfected the arts of protecting
his interests and of projecting seeming virtues, his method of being "true" to
others. Never mind that this includes spying on Hamlet for King Claudius. Never
mind, as well, that many of Polonius's haughty, if not trite, kernels of wisdom
are now taken as Shakespeare's own wise pronouncements on living a proper life.

- - - -

Original message on Wed, Apr 11, 2012
from: sflower1290 steve1290@gmail.com>

> Admittedly, I've only been in this a little over 21 years - but almost
> every recovery token I've ever received has had "to thine own self be true"
> around its circumference. I've done a search through the Big Book (Doctor's
> Opinion, the next 164, and the appendices) and I don't find it there, nor
> in the searchable versions of the 12 & 12 that I have.
>
> So when a friend asked me, "Where did it come from?" my best shot was to
> ask my best resource here on AAHL. We both would appreciate anything you
> can share.
>
> - - - -
>
> FROM GLENN C. THE MODERATOR:
>
> Message #1550
> Grapevine, July '47
> The Clip Sheet: Excerpts from the Public Press
>
> Wilmington, Del., "News": "'To thine own self be true, and it must follow,
> as night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man,' was the
> quotation used by a speaker and member of A.A. when he addressed an open
> meeting of more than 300 persons here last night. The speaker, a resident
> of Massachusetts, alighted from a train here when he heard of the local
> group's meeting and attended as a spectator. However, he was requested to
> speak when a speaker scheduled was unable to attend. The theme of his talk,
> 'Honesty with One's Self,' was brought out when he said, 'Sincerity means
> the difference between those who accomplish their aims in A.A. and those
> who don't.'"

0 -1 0 0
8369 John Barton John Barton Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred 4/12/2012 3:18:00 PM

Hi Dave,
 
You can start by checking every post Merton put on the AAHL. I assume you have
read Black Sheep so you have that as well. I will look for that specific note
about Burwell.
 
Regards

________________________________

Replying to message from: dave landuyt
dave_landuyt@yahoo.com> (dave_landuyt at yahoo.com)
Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2012
Subject: Re: Merton's Notes and the names of the First One Hundred

Mr. Barton,

You made mention of "Merton's notes" in your latest AAHL discussing the Names of
the First One Hundred. Is this the Merton who was writing "Black Sheep"? I'd
like to read these if possible.

Thank You,
Dave Landuyt

- - - -

Replying to message from: jax760
jax760@yahoo.com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012
Subject: Re: Names of the First One Hundred

Although Burwell is listed for NY he actually bounced around. Both before and
after his relapse in mid 1938 he was living with the Parkurst's in Upper
Montclair, NJ which is where he first met Bill according to Merton's notes.

0 -1 0 0
8370 John Barton John Barton Re: Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA Bishop Wilson: the Church of England should be more like AA 4/12/2012 4:36:00 PM

Of course this reminds me of Sam Shoemaker's great essay c. July 1955

"What the Church Must Learn from Alcoholics Anonymous"

"... God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is
weak in the world to shame the strong ...."
-- I Corinthians 1:26

During the weekend of the Fourth of July last (1955), I attended one of the most
remarkable conventions I ever expect to attend. It was a gathering in St. Louis
of about five thousand members of the movement called Alcoholics Anonymous. The
occasion was the celebration of their twentieth anniversary, and the turning
over freely and voluntarily of the management and destiny of that great movement
by the founders and 'old-timers' to a board which represents the fellowship as a
whole.

As I lived and moved among these men and women for three days, I was moved as I
have seldom been moved in my life. It happens that I have watched the unfolding
of this movement with more than usual interest, for its real founder and guiding
spirit, Bill W., found his initial spiritual answer at Calvary Church in New
York, when I was rector there, in 1935. Having met two men, unmistakable
alcoholics, who had found release from their difficulty, he was moved to seek
out the same answer for himself. But he went further. Being of a foraging and
inquiring mind, he began to think there was some general law operating here,
which could be made to work, not in two men's lives only, but in two thousand or
two million. He set to work to find out what it was. He consulted psychiatrists,
doctors, clergy and recovered alcoholics to discover what it was.

The first actual group was not in New York, but in Akron, Ohio. Bill was
spending a weekend there in a hotel. The crowd was moving towards the bar. He
was lonely and felt danger assailing him. He consulted the church-directory in
the hotel lobby, and found the name of a local clergyman and his